Leading to Fulfillment

What do you want accomplish? Who do you want to be? What's holding you back? These are questions we all wrestle with. But now it's time to finally put this existential crisis to rest to get to work. In this episode we discuss… The path to fulfillment and deciding who you want to be The fundamental challenges preventing progress Results Management vs Time Management How to start your day to set yourself up for success About Our Guest Nick has 20 years of experience in leadership, mentoring, and consulting across 5 locations and 3 countries. He has an extensive business and corporate background via financial services, significant coaching training and continuing learning with one of the biggest coaching organizations in the world, along with being Primal health coach institute certified. Resources Mentioned on the Show https://jameslaws.com/newsletter/ www.achievers-mindset.com. https://www.amazon.com/Essentialism-Disciplined-Pursuit-Greg-McKeown/dp/0804137382 The Transcript James Laws: What do you want to accomplish? Who do you want to be? What's holding you back? These are the questions we all wrestle with, but now it's time to finally put this existential crisis to rest and get to work on this episode of Leading to Fulfillment. The podcast where everything we talk about is meant to encourage people first leaders empower individuals to achieve fulfillment and to help your organizations become places people love to. I'm your host James Laws, and I have a great show in store for you. My guest for this episode is Nick Davies. Nick has 20 years of experience in leadership, mentoring and consulting across five locations and three countries. He has an extensive business and corporate background via financial services, significant coaching, training in continuing learning with one of the biggest coaching organizations in the world, along with being Primal Health Coach Institute certified. In my conversation with Nick, we discussed the path to fulfillment and deciding who you want to be, the fundamental challenges of preventing progress, results management versus time management, and how to start your day off to set yourself up for success. But first I want to invite you to subscribe and leave a review for the Leading to Fulfillment podcast in your favorite podcast tool. We are literally all over the place. We're on Apple, Google Podcast, Spotify. You can even watch us over on YouTube. And it's important to know that by leaving a review, by commenting, by sharing the show, it is the best way to make sure a larger audience gets to see the insights from my amazing guests. So I hope you'll will share it with, uh, everyone, you know. Now let's jump into my conversation with Nick Davies. Nick, thank you so much for joining me today on the Leading to Fulfillment podcast. Nick Davies: Thank you. I appreciate the invite. I'm excited to be here. James Laws: Uh, you know, just so that everybody can get an idea of who you are, uh, what could you give us a little bit about your background, where you kind of started from, and what brought you to where you are today, and why you are passionate about the things that you're passionate about today? Nick Davies: Thank you. Great question. Where do I start? Is it, how much of a nutshell do you want it in? How big do you want it? Well, I grew up in England, as you can probably hear, everyone can hear that and notice that it's like something that's, that follows me everywhere. It's, it's just a interesting thing. And I guess real, real part of me and I, I grew up, worked straight out of high school, worked in big banks for 20 years all over the world, and I run big teams and small teams and people always fascinated me. And about 12 years ago, I kind of was living in the Philippines and I was on this journey of like, where do I want to be when I grow up? And I started thinking about what happiness is. And I got into personal development and went down that road and got to the States and, uh, worked for some other banks and finally said, look how, like I want to do something that I. To something that I actually am passionate about and the big distinction I'll share James here, is that for me, I was always thinking about finding the thing that you are supposed to do. And that just didn't sit well until I found a tweak and I do not know where I read it or heard it, but it was a start creating the person that you want to be. And that was a difference changer for me and thought, okay, what do I like doing that I've done the last 20 years and it was people, how do I help people? Coach and mentoring people what I did. And so, , six, seven years ago now I start going the rope of being a coach. I was a coach for Tony Robbins for a number of years, and I've been a coach for a long time now. And I work with people that are already successful and want more success because they know that there's so much out there and they're willing to go to the next level. And that's what gets me passionate. I get passionate about people getting passionate about the things that they love to do, and, uh, that's who I work with. And it's fantastic when we can bring that together and get some juice. James Laws: I think that's awesome. I think there's, there's a, there's a lot of stuff for us to talk about here because I'm also passionate about that and my focus comes from almost a, I think the other side of the coin, you know, I, I have a successful business. I have a great team. Uh, I love, I love working with the people that I work with, and I love starting new projects and new businesses. In fact, this podcast is kind of part of a new venture that we're starting. But one of the things I came to, Yeah, I want to be successful. I want to have the flexibility. I want to live the life that I, always, that I dream of living. And sometimes that requires me to experiment and experience life in different ways so I can find out what am I missing and what do I actually want out of my life. But at the core of it, I started to realize like the people that I hire, the people that work for me, They want those exact same things, and not all of them are meant to go out and start their own thing and, you know, build their own business and start their, some of them are, and some of them will leave me and go do that, and I am 100% prepared and excited with for when that day comes. But some of them actually just want to work for something that they believe in and that they care about. And it's my job as a leader to help fashion that journey for them. Help them discover what fulfillment looks like. For them and get them there. And you talked about this, and I want to kind of dive into this a little bit further, this idea of not just discovering, uh, you know, or, uh, you know, but actually deciding the person you want to be and then making conscious decisions to actually be that, and, and to discover that. Can you talk a little bit about that? Nick Davies: Yeah. I liken it to that old saying, you know, trying to find a needle in a haystack. And people would say that, because when it's, find something troublesome to find, well, I'll say that. Well, at least you know what you're looking for. It's like when you trying to find the person you're supposed to be, you find the thing that juices you or it gets you excited. It's like, come on. Like that's, it seems too unachievable. But if you can say, okay, well I get to the create, I get to decide. For me, that opened up the whole realm of possibilities, right? It's like it's not. You've got to go into the realms of what you are supposed to do or what, you know, it's like you, you get to write your own story. I think about sitting in a theater and, and watching a movie on the screen and, and people, uh, looking at the hero in that movie and thinking, wow, like, that's so cool to watch the Hero's Journey. And most people would prefer to sit in the cinema seat and watch, rather than being the hero in their own life. And yeah, that's, that's what gets me juiced up to help people figure out that they can be the hero in their own life. And to your point, James, it doesn't mean they've got to go create and change the world and everything in the world, but it's whatever their specific version of that is. James Laws: Yeah. I think it's important. I've said this number of times. I ask three questions of, of my teams professionally to determine whether they're in that right role or whether we need some shaping, whether there's some changing that needs to happen. And those, those three questions ultimately are, you know, Do I love what I'm doing? Do I believe what I do matters? And can I see the impact on those things. And what I do is I ask that question because if what, ultimately, if somebody's answering that question, they're like, you know what, I believe what I do matters, and I can see the impact that I'm having. But honestly, no, I don't love it. I don't enjoy it, all right, we got some tweaking to do. You're in the right, you've got the right purpose. You're making progress. But man, how do we get you the passion? How do we figure out what is the thing that'll give you the passion? We only have to move one of those dials now. But if you're void of all three, you're on that discovery. You talked about the needle in the haystack, but at least you know, uh, what the needle looks like, right? I talked the other way. It feels kind of like an existential crisis in a haystack, right? Like, what does that look like? , how do I define what this thing is to decide this is who I want to be? And a lot of that comes experimentation. Some of it just comes out as like trying things, right? Uh, you know, that's what we, as we raise kids, we want to give them a lot of experiences so that they can determine what they do find passion in what they do, see purpose in where they can make progress in. Cuz all of those are the motivational drivers that help us find ultimate fulfillment. One of those that I talk about a lot is progress. And you talk a lot about productivity and progress as we're trying in this journey of discovering who we are and finding productivity. I want to ask you, what do you think are some of the fundamental problems or struggles that keep many of us being really busy, like we're really active or we're not actually making progress. Nick Davies: Yeah, Don't mistake activity for progress, right? It's a big, big thing. I love what you said because I believe that progress equals happiness when you're moving forward and feel like things are happening, that's the best, regardless of where you are in your journey, right? And everything's contrast, context and scale. So, You can look at that in the whole part of your life or just that moment, as long as you're moving forward to get it right. But I, I think to, to answer your question, what are the things that hold us up? Right? I think a lot of people that are successful… And you mentioned children raising to raising children as well. I certainly got this message.. my bet is that you got this as well. Is that work hard. Work hard, and you'll be success. . And I think that is good advice because at that point in our lives where it's a case of it's either you work hard or you're lazy. Yeah. And so we wanna push to the work hard part, which I think is really helpful. And when you start getting successful, that quickly runs out. Because work hard means do everything. Do everything. And if there's more that comes at you, do more , focus harder do. And. You can't, you run out. And so that busyness is what runs our lives or can do if we're not careful. Uh, in my prior career, I remember, uh, as a point where I was running, uh, I had four teams, one too many people. It was about 30 people. And I, I would, I would joke, because I remember getting to work at like seven in the morning. I'd be on meetings, on calls and in rooms, and I, I'll be back to back to a five o'clock and I go back to my desk and I. Judge myself, like I am about to start work for the day, right? So you've got to focus on what's most important. And so it's so easy to get into the fog of life of that business. And so you need to know where you're going. So I, I love your questions and I actually call it, um, so, so what I think if I got it right, it's like, uh, do you love what you do? Do you believe it matters? And are you seeing an impact? Yeah. And I call it the, the Triple P. So it's passion, purpose, profit. Do you love what you do? Are you damn good at it? And does it drive your economic engine? So those three things together. So I think that's kind of the antidote to some of that busyness. And it's just to check in and snap the chalk line and say, Hold on a second. Are you in the fog of your life or are you actually doing things to allow you to move towards where you want to go? And, and so from a coaching perspective, it's, I mean, from a leadership perspective, same thing. You hear your team, you hear people saying, I can't, I'm too busy, or, uh, something else is doing this, or someone's not doing that. Then you know that they're in that place of like the tyranny of the urgent, where they're just moving from one thing to another. I think it's addictive as well, James, right? Because when you first start, it's kind of cool to start to do things and start to see results. And people go, Hey, I want your time, James, can I have your time? And you're like, cool. Like, I get, they want me, I'm needed. And you get, there's a, there's a, there's an addictive quality to it cuz it's an adrenaline rush as well. It's like, bang here, bang there. Like it's, that's really cool. Takes me back to working on the trading floors where you know, your name's getting shattered out across the floor and you're running over here, you're running over there and like you're booking the train, you're doing something. And so all of that stuff comes together, but I think it, it runs out. So I think there's two stories. Once you get to a level of success, work hard is no longer good advice. It needs to be zoomed out. You see more of the picture and it's actually, what do you want the most? And that's why you see stories of people that are billionaire leaders. All they do is spend their time saying No, avoiding making decisions to only make the ones that are most important. James Laws: I really, I love this because it mirrors a lot of, some, sometimes the advice that I give many people is sometimes to go faster, you have to slow down. Sometimes you have to step back, assess the situation, and determine where you're ultimately going. And so I love this idea. It's, it's funny, it mirrors a little bit, even this podcast, this podcast is super new. I've, you know, I am recording way ahead right now. But like we only released episode seven on Friday, and you know, you know, we're going to release episode A as you listen to this. That's a long time ago. Like, that's , right? But what happened was, is I started getting this podcast going and it started taking up more and more of my time. And I was doing, I was planning on an episode every week, and you got a message from me early on where I was like, I'm slowing, I'm stepping back. I'm slowing this down a little bit. I'm going to move this to a bimonthly. Everyone, you know, every two weeks we're going to slow this down a little bit, because I realized I was being super active and super busy, and more people were demanding of my time. And it wasn't, I want something different from this podcast in the long run, and just being busy wasn't going to get me there. And so I had to kind of step back. So I love that approach of just saying, Hey, let's, let's step back. Let's determine what we actually, what's actually, I. That's why I always recommend the book Essentialism. If you haven't read the book, I highly recommend it. I guarantee, yeah, I guarantee it's on your shelf, right? One of my favorite books, it's a book I read two times every single year because it is just, I just need to be reminded, right, of what's essential, what's important, and how do I get rid of all the non-essential things in my life. Uh, and so I think that's a super powerful thing as we're talking about teams, it's great for the, the business owner. It's great for the leader. It's great for the high achiever and the successful person. Like, Hey, how do we, how do we build progress? How do we make more progress? But as a leader with a team of people, you also want to make progress. And they want to make progress, right? Like nobody goes and works for a job because they want to stand still. They want to actually achieve something and they want to gain ground. How do you, how do we empower our teams to create real progress? What are some tips in helping them find real progress in the midst of the whirlwind of work that happens every single day? Nick Davies: I got to say essentialism. I didn't read it till last year, but it was one of my favorite books of last year, and I showed you that copy. I had 10 copies I bought. I've been giving them way to a client of mine. I took five copies to see a client a couple months ago. So, yeah, I love it. I love the premise of that book. And I'll preface that and answer your question because I think that slow is smooth and smooth is fast. We've got to slow down to move faster. And, and in order to start, we do want the action first. And so, like, that's the art of it. I think that's part, cause if we slow down before we start, we've got nothing to slow down. So I want to lean towards the action. And when you start to see something, Then, then go, okay, what actually am I doing here? Take, take that second to pause. And I think that comes back to the awareness of being able to empower people to make real progress in the teams. Like you just said, it starts with the, the entry point. You said people don't want to show up to achieve nothing. And in my corporate experience, there was actually a lot of people there that were just there cause they thought they should. Or was the right thing to do, or it paid well and there's nothing wrong with those things, no judgment. But I think that conversation at the start is so important, traditional way that we hire people. And I, it sounds like this is not how you do it and, and I'm sure like there's a lot of entrepreneurs out there doing it this way anyway, but it's so important to think about. It's not. Like look at resume. If you've got the right experience, let's come in. It is like, okay, where do you want to go? This is where we are going. And does this fit in with where you want to go? Do you know? And it might not be that they do if they're dependent on where they're on their journey, but can you get on board with what this is for you and having that entry point as solid as possible and as real and as honest as possible if they're a good fit or not. Can you see good to, great, right? I love the analogy of getting the right people on the bus because if your business is the bus, you want to have the right people. You want to have the right people on the right seats, but mostly want to have the right people on the bus to know that, look, are you okay with going on this journey? Because we don't know exactly what it's going to look like and there's going to be bumps, and sometimes we're going to ask you to get out and push. But are you okay with doing those things because the destination is something that you believe in. I think that's the starting point. And that's where we always got to come back to. Whenever people aren't going in the direction they want to or it doesn't feel good, we've got to snap it and come back and say, are we still aligned? And that's the number one question to always come back to. Because we can float around, right? We can float around, like it's flying from one side of the country to the other side of the country. If that pilot isn't constantly on and checking in where we're going, you could bounce up between, you know, one minute you're in Canada, or next minute you're in Mexico. It's like you'll fly out the sky, run outta fuel. You've got to know where you're going. And so I think that's what's really important as a start point. And then once you've got that, and then you've got to say, what's the real next milestone? And then? It's 101in terms of like finding a map to where you're going, right? It's like you've got to know where you are and you've got to know where you're going. And once you've got that, and it's the certainty to know that like it's really convicted, are you really clear about it? People will naturally make progress. Why? Because they feel like they own the outcomes and. Often times when I have clients come in and ask me, they go, oh, I want accountability. Accountability is a big thing. Absolutely is, but I think it's low level. In terms of the level, in terms of the real success we're playing at because accountability really engagement's better. It's co-creation, but what even better than that is ownership. And yeah, you don't have to be the owner to think like in ownership terms. Once you do that, then the empowerment in the process is always there, or at least that's the baseline for it. And it's just the case of checking in. James Laws: Yeah. And you know, you talked about the hiring, you know, hiring practices and changing kind of our mind-set of hiring. And this is one of the things I, I coach people, and I tell people all the time when they're hiring for their team, is, you're hiring a person, not a position. Yes. Right? It's not the role. Don't worry about the role. You hire the person and you're going to shape the role. You know, we talk about it as small businesses, like we're job creators, we're job creators. Well then create a. Right. Create the job for the person. Don't find a person for the job that you already have created. Like, yeah, there's going to be some crossover there, but ultimately you're hiring a person and that means you're hiring their professional experiences, you're hiring their how they grew up, where they grew up. You're hiring their personal, you know, the personal experiences, the professional experiences. It's a whole package and you're looking for whole people to be a part of your organization, not somebody who's just going to come earn a pay check and live their life separate from your company. You want to integrate that a little bit. And so that's my goal is not work-life balance. For instance, I think work-life balance is a scam. Nobody wants to balance work and life. I don't want these things to be equal. I'm not looking to be like, yeah, I want to spend 50% of my time working and 50% of my time living. I want to live 100% of the time. And part of my life is my professional, uh, job. It's the thing that I do. My vocation, the thing that like gets me kind of excited to, to learn and grow and expand my knowledge. And so I want to integrate work into my life. I don't want to balance them at. Now in the midst of this, we've talked about progress. We've talked about helping our teams find progress, shaping roles, and hiring people, not positions, and getting them into our organizations. And yet, we know in the midst of this, like you said, you want activity. You start with activity in many ways, you start with action. Cause it's through the action, you're going to start to weed out what is the courses we should be taking. But then ultimately you find organizations that just kind of get caught up in the inertia of activity. They need to figure out how to manage all of the activity and how to manage their time and how to get the most important things done. And to schedule. I'd love to hear what is your approach to time management in both for the high level, right? As a leader, right down to how do you help your teams manage time? Nick Davies: Yeah. It's so cool. Cause all of these things are so intertwined, right? It's like one this goes to the next, goes to the next, and it's like, it's a picture, like a tapestry, like a puzzle. Well, what does the puzzle look like? It's like, well, what do you want it to look like? But here's some tools you can get to. It reminds me of a story I often share, James is when I lived in the Philippines and I was working for a big bank there, and it was a new location, so there was lots of people training, in management leadership type skills. And I just had lots of time on my hands cause we were.. and I was just going to all of the things I could go to. And I remember after two days in this short little course thing, I remember asking the facilitator, Hey, as a leader or a manager, I probably said it at the time, as a manager, how do I know I've got all the tools in my tool belt? And of course he couldn't answer me, because it's a terrible question. There's no good, there's no real answer for that. It's like, well, depends where you want to go at any given time. It's like, I think as leaders as we grow, we fill out, I fill out our tool belts and we put 'em in the closet and then we put a new belt on, fill that one up as well, and then go back to the closet. It's like, oh, I forgot about, there's six others here of tools. It's absolutely abundant the amount of tools that are available, right? So it's, it's about like, where do you want, where do you want go? Right? And so approach to time management is in the same. Same vein as that, it's what's most important. Have we defined where your outcome is? Because you can, how can you possibly have a plan for your day if you haven't got a plan for your life, or at least in the plan for your business? Just looking at, in that sense, the plan for the year or the outcomes you want to get to. So I think time management itself, perhaps a bit of a fallacy. It's activity. We want to be a results manager, not a time manager. And so one will fit into the others. Like you and I both know, James, if something matters enough, you'll get it done right? We only get what we must get. And if you're not doing it and the excuse or the story is, I haven't got enough time, it's obviously not important enough. So there's things you do every day in your life that you do over and over and over. It's like, do you ? It's like you find time to go to the bathroom every day, right? It's a must, right? It's important enough. You'll find a way. Or when you're committed, you'll find a way. So I, I think by looking at it in time management, I look, I think there's some good strategies, some tools around it for sure. But I think if we think about it in terms of how do I manage time and we're not necessarily thinking about a shortcut of where we're going, it should be what result am I looking? and that, and that for me, that doesn't matter whether you are CEO or your entry level will just come in, guys come in the door. It's thinking about what am I trying to get to? What's the result? And instantly that's how you get to thinking like an own owner. So the, the job description. Or the, and as you said, it's absolutely perfect, right? You want to hire the person for, you feel like you want to come on this journey with us? Yeah. Does it fit with where you want to go, rather than do the role? And then the extension of that is also, would you define what it is, this is the outcome we need to get for the company. Where do you think you can input into that? What do you want to split yourself on the hook for? And what are the things that you are going to do every day or every week to stay in your best chance of getting that? And then as you hit those things, as you hit the seeds that you are planting, then you're going to get paid based on the seeds that you plant and the outcomes that you get, not on the time you spend anywhere. So, I think it's useful to think about it overall, but it's easy to get lost in that, I believe. James Laws: I think you're, you're right, you're spot on with that, right? Like your time management techniques doesn't ultimately matter if you haven't actually determined the right activities for which to put into your schedule. So let me ask the question this way. How does Nick start his day? When you start your workday and you start thinking about what you want to accomplish, how do you start your day to set yourself up for success for the coming day? Nick Davies: Oh, I'm so excited for that. Why? Because I just got back from two weeks on vacation in England and we were there an extra week than we expected because we got hit with some Covid positive tests. So that was an interesting experience. So a bit uncomfortable. Great because we get to learn, right? We get to grow and do that. This morning it was so nice to get back to my regular scheduled programming, if you will. And so my boot up routine in the morning oscillates around a little bit, but what it looks like right now is 4.30 wake up, it's some immediate stretching, immediately go in the AirPods and I'm listening to a book or a podcast and something to prime the morning version of me. Because I think, like as adults, we like kids in the morning, like sponges, whatever goes in first, like propagates throughout the day and you're always chasing after it if it's not the right thing. So that's for me. And then I was in the gym by five, it was a legs workout this morning. I had stroked back and my first thing after that was to do some journaling, whatever's on my mind, and it's really small for me, not a big deal. Meditation didn't do that this morning. And my daughter and my wife were both up when I got back at six o'clock, just like, what are you doing up? This is my time in the morning. Right. But that flexibility is key, right? So is there I did, I went actually back upstairs to, to about my, to my office here. And I finished up my planning for the day, which was a lot of recalibrating from last week. So I'd taken down all the notes of like, just get outta my head and then go, what's the most important things for today? I know I've got fantastic podcast to do today. I'm excited about. I have five or six clients to work with. I've got some team stuff to do. And according to the episode of my own podcast, and so what's the most important things that I need to get done? And usually it's three things. Usually it's three things, and doesn't mean I won't do other things well, but I've got me know what's most important for that day. Back to the essentialism concept again, of course, and knowing what that looks like. And that's what my boot up routine is about for me. And then there's some health stuff around that as well in terms of fasting. And so that's what it looks like in order to boot up. I've got to know what success looks like before I start the day in order to be successful. Otherwise, like your life is going to take you in on a journey where it wants to take you. James Laws: That's true. If you don't fill your schedule with what's important, someone else will fill it up with what's not. And that's just a fact of life. I love your routine. I have a similar one and I think it's interesting. Everyone's different and yeah. And Nick's routine may not work for you, and my routine may not work for you. You have to find what gets you energized and what, but I will say more commonly than not, what I hear from people who are, who are successful, who are driven, who are trying to accomplish, you know, big things. The routine sounds very similar, right? It's a it's an early wake up. Yeah. It's a, it's some sort of exercise, something to get the blood flowing. It's some sort of reading a book. It's listening to a podcast. It's something to stimulate. The thing that you want to accomplish for the day, right? It's a little bit of meditative practice, some journaling, something to kind of empty your thoughts and ideas. And it's a little bit of an assessment, right? What went well yesterday? What's going, uh, what do I want to accomplish today? What are my three big rocks? Whatever model you use. So I love that there is a routine that is commonly used among certain types of people, you might try adopting it. If you don't have a morning routine, borrow one like that. Go for it. Try it out, see how it fits. Feel it for a week and see if it actually gets you moving a little bit better. And if it doesn't start tweaking, make some changes and make some adjustments. You'll figure it out. You just got to keep going at it and I really appreciate that. I always say I've actually kind of, but keep backtracking. It's kind of funny how it goes further back. I said, you want to set your day up for success? Fix your morning routine. And then I started to say, you want to really have a great morning routine, fix the night before, get to bed at a decent time, unload some of that stuff, journal. Then sometimes I, instead of journaling in the morning, I actually dump it the night before. So it's waiting for me when I'm ready to assess my day. So figure out what works for you and set yourself up for success. I think that is a extremely powerful thing. There are a lot of people though who hear this and, and maybe they're like, man, I'm really having a struggle finding that motivation. I'm really having a hard time kind of figuring that out. What do you have some tips some strategies, some ideas you might give somebody to help them perhaps find or spark that daily motivation or to even attempt that morning routine or to tweak. Nick Davies: Yeah. Just about a million things, James, you know, cause, like I don't think that I often say to people I, I know I can help anyone, at any time, any subject, any location, whatever it is. Not because I'm so great, because it's about the same principles and concepts and the tools and the application though is like, there's a million different variations to those. So it's always fun to play with because there's no limit in the amount of ways you can play. There's an absolute abundance of resources and a way to get to your outcomes. Now the difference is, are you in a resourceful place to go access some of those things, right? And then, so for in a morning routine example, it's like you said, it's figure it out because your James' one won't work for you necessarily, or my one won't work for you. It's whatever you need. And, and so if you're looking for, thinking of it like, it has to be this, otherwise it doesn't work or it doesn't work for me, then you're going to always run, always run into roadblocks. And so like even if something works for you, it might not work, it might work great for a year, then it might not work at all. So I like to think about it having variations, having always somewhere to go. So I like have a morning routine where you get like the luxury version, you get the medium version, and you get like the minimum effective dose version. Three have three ways to go, right? The hour and a half luxury one is like, wow. I get like the whole thing and then, uh, you know, the, the minimum effective doses, I guess do some jump rope or some burpees and I'm good to go. Just get the hell out, get going. But I think that for the motivation, you got to keep it small. You got to keep it as small as possible. It reduce it to the ridiculous and here's the thing, when you're looking at something and you think, well, that's easy, I can do that. That seems small, and then you're not, that's your evidence that it's still too big. What's actually happening? You're like, oh, I can do that. I can definitely do that. And then you don't do it. It's like, well, what's the disconnect? It's like it's still too big. Make it smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller. Reduce it to the ridiculous. Start with something that's so ridiculously small. It's like, well, of course I can dam do that. Start there and build. And wherever you get start, wherever it stops progressing go back, make it smaller. It's the consistency of that which is massively impactful. Don't, I mean the, the classic here, James, I'm home, I'm sure you've used a version of this and shown a million times is, you know, new Year's resolutions and people get so motivated and pumped up and induced and energized about going into the year and changing their health. Let's say I'm going to work out seven days a week. I'm going to do it for the whole year. No doubt I'm going to do it. And the danger is that in that moment they are. That's a dangerous part because they go forward and they're convinced, and then remember they nail it for the first week and then something happens. It just knocks 'em around a little bit and they miss one of their workouts and then suddenly it all goes because you've just, you've set up a game which does not support your success, and then they start thinking, well, I must be the problem. I can't do. That's not the type of person I am. Why has it always happened to me? And then the likelihood of them starting again diminishes and every time, and that's where people go to place, which is the most scariest place in the world. They don't believe they can do anything that they want to do. And, and so I think it's, we've got to start the other way and keep it small cuz overdoing it is also dangerous. You want to build that personal integrity, right? You want to know that you can trust yourself to follow through, but you want to also be your own best friend. That's such a big thing as well, You've got to be able to look after yourself. You've got to have a high level. If you have a high level for delivery, you got to have a high level com for compassion as well. That starts with everyone as an individual. It's like, look, what? What? How are you supporting yourself to. Like you want to create a game that you can win that's really, really small Every time like wants to play a game, I can't win. It's like, but you got to keep scoring, you got to keep it small and then you can build on top of that. Yeah, James Laws: I think you're right and right when you're trying to create new behaviors, when you're trying to create new habits. I love this idea. I love your idea, right? Start as small as you can. I'm a big proponent of habit stacking, starting with the smallest possible habit, and then reinforcing that habit with new habits once I have it unlocked. So I give this example all the time. If you want to stop drinking soda, don't just stop drinking soda. Maybe the first thing you start doing is drink a glass of water every day. That's not so hard. That's pretty easy. Drink a glass of water every day. Eventually you can get to the point where you're saying, all right, I want to drink only one can of soda and I'm going to drink only water. And then you transition that over to the point where I'm just drinking water. Now you find out I don't like soda. I don't like the way it changes the taste of my food. I don't like the way that it. You know, I don't like all the sugar, I don't whatever. It's right. You can make those changes by making those, it kind of reminds me, it's not in the same vein, but it's this idea of, I don't know if you've ever heard of the five why framework, right? When something goes wrong, when something's broken, you ask, well, all right, so sales have dropped. Well, why? Well, we're not getting as many people on the website. Why? Well, we're not writing as much. Why? Well, because we're working on this other initiative, but why? And you just keep asking that why till you get to the root right? You get right to the root of the actual thing that actually has to change the thing that actually is causing this knock on effect all the way down to causing you to have less sales. It's true for your goals and your behaviors and your habits as well. If you ask that why all the way back, you find out where is the core thing that needs, start there. I love it ridiculously small. Get it as small as you possibly can and then build off of that. Nick, thank you so much for being on the Leading to Fulfillment podcast. I want to give you the last word. If there's something that I should have asked you that I didn't, if there's last thoughts you want to give and how can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more about you? Nick Davies: James, what a pleasure. Thank you. It really juices me up when I speak to people that are in a like-minded fashion. I think that we have a responsibility to share as much we possibly can, because look…I won't assume to speak for you, but I certainly, from my point of view, there's nothing special about me. But I do know that if you act on the principles and think about what's most important, you can create whatever you want to create. And so I believe we have a responsibility to share that as many people as possible. Because look, if you're thinking about, if you're watching this or you're listening to this and you're thinking like, I'm trying to go into something that I'm concerned about or I'm fearful about, and I'm not quite sure, it's like, you can, you absolutely can. there's not been a person that I've worked with, a scene hasn't been able to amaze themselves with the resources they already have inside them. And I just so important to think about that. And I just want to comment what you said about Habit Stack, and I think it's so important and really distinction that jumped out for me when you shared that. You can't stop doing things because you think about stopping doing things. You're creating a vacuum which needs to be filled. So forget about that and go to start something. To your point, absolutely entirely. Go drink water, drink more water, drink so much damn water, there's no room for soda anyway. And you're always thinking about how I'm creating, creating and thinking about in abundance, about moving that away because people are always going to take the path of least resistance. So go towards something that you want. So thank you very much for that. I'd love to share like my, my newsletter with people. I send this out every week, which is just a few things that I'm thinking about. Some things that are going on and just constantly sharpen the saw to move forward and keeping it real. You know, it's like it's, we've got to be having real honest it conversations. Most people play life on the surface because that's what most of life is, but in order to get to the success we want, you got to go deep. Got to go deep for challenge yourself to that. It's just as hard do that, that it is to be mediocre. So why not go for the things you want so that you can find that at /www.achievers-mindset.com. Just get a little email at once a week in your inbox, nick@achievers-mindset.com James Laws: Awesome. Nick, thank you again so much for being on the show. I've had a, I really enjoyed the conversation. Nick Davies: Appreciate you, James. Thank you. I want to thank Nick for taking the time to be on the show and join me as we talk to the idea of cultivating a mind-set of achievement. Everything we mentioned, including a full transcript of the show, is available over on my website at jameslaws.com. Also on my website, you can subscribe to my leading culture newsletter There I send out weekly inspiration, insights, and frameworks to help you create a healthy company culture and be the best leader you can be. In this episode, we discussed how activity can be the enemy of progress. We encourage you to be a results manager instead of a time manager. Things like browsing social media instead of finishing an important financial report, spending hours going through old files and emails instead of working on an important presentation that's due tomorrow, chatting with colleagues instead of prepping for this afternoon's meeting. These are, these kind of activities are time wasters. They're, they're classic examples. Procrastination, unnecessarily delaying tasks that need to get done. Not only is procrastination disruptive to goals and progress, but it also causes added stress and anxiety. Procrastination is one of the biggest pain points in business, especially for leaders who must manage procrastinators. If you have procrastinators on your team, it's probably difficult for both of you and perhaps the team at large, especially if they have to pick up the slack for their procrastinating co-worker. Whether you are at your wits end or you're just recognizing the problem, take heart. There are several strategies for motivating procrastinators and getting progress back on track. But first what I want to talk about is that it's important to understand why your team members procrastinate in the first place. Sometimes procrastination is simply the symptom of something else. Things like perfectionism, or a lack of clarity or burnout, or not receiving desired recognition. There are times when procrastination stems from larger, more complex issues like depression, anxiety, and ADHD, for example. They can all contribute to procrastination or challenges in employee's personal life, like losing a loved one or going through a divorce can increase the chances of procrastination. These challenges don't have a simple fix, but as a leader, the best thing you can do is offer understanding and support your company is important so are the people who propel it forward. The most successful organ organizations are the ones that humanize their team, understanding that sometimes life gets in the way of the work, but your workforce will be more sustainable if you work with them to resolve their challenges. Thanks for listening, and I hope you'll join me on the next episode. And until then, may your businesses be successful as you lead you to fulfillment.

Are you, your team, and your company performing optimally? Even if things are good, do you ever wish they could be better? Do you want to accomplish more, take more risks, and lead a healthy team at the same time? Then it's time to lace up your running shoes. In this episode we discuss… The draw of leaders and entrepreneurs to running The benefits of running on business performance Navigating risk within our organizations A brief look at Bryan's EPIC Performance framework About Our Guest Bryan has over 25 years' experience in Leadership and Organizational Development with executive and senior-level responsibilities in small and large companies. Before starting his consulting practice, he was on the Executive Committee as the Vice President of Human Resources for a mid-size, global-technology company. In addition to running Human Resources and Payroll, he has extensive experience in Leadership Development, Organizational Design, Communications, and Mergers & Acquisitions. For recreation, he is a dedicated endurance athlete completing many long-distance cycling or running events including cycling across the United States, cycling 300 miles in 24 hours, and running 200 miles around Lake Tahoe in 76 hours. His book, EPIC Performance: Lessons from 100 Executives and Endurance Athletes on Reaching Your Peak based on his experiences reaching lofty goals as well as the experience of 100+ CEOs, CxOs, founders, and endurance athletes who have also reached amazing goals is out now. Resources Mentioned on the Show epicperformances.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryangillette/ EPIC Performance: Lessons from 100 Executives and Endurance Athletes on Reaching Your Peak The Transcript James Laws: Are you, your team and your company performing optimally? Even if things are good, do you ever wish they could be a little bit better? Do you wanna accomplish more, take more risks and lead a healthy team at the same time? And it's time to lace up your running shoes on this episode of the Leading to Fulfillment Podcast. The podcast where everything we talk about is meant to encourage people first leaders, empower individuals to achieve fulfillment and to help your organizations become places people love to work. I'm your host, James Laws, and I have a great show in store for you. I had a really fun conversation with my guest on this episode. His name is, Brian Gillette. He has over 25 years' experience in leadership and organizational development with executive and senior level responsibilities in small and large companies. And before starting his consulting practice, he was on the executive committee as the Vice President of Human Resources for a mid-size global technology company. In addition to running human resources and payroll, he has extensive experience in leadership development, organizational design, communications, and mergers, and acquisitions. The fun part though is for recreation. He is a dedicated endurance athlete completing many long distance cycling or running events, including cycling across the United States. Cycling 300 miles in 24 hours and running 200 miles around Lake Tahoe in 76 hours. He has a book available now called: Epic Performance, Lessons from 100 Executives and Endurance Athletes on Reaching your Peak. This book is based on his experiences of reaching lofty goals as well as the experience of a hundred plus CEOs, CXOs, Founders, and endurance athletes who have also reached these amazing goals. The book is, again, it's available now, and in my conversation with Brian, we discussed the draw of leaders to entrepreneur and entrepreneurs to running and endurance sports the benefits of running has on professional performance, navigating risks within our organizations. And a brief look at Brian's epic performance framework. But first I wanna invite you to subscribe to the Leading to Fulfillment podcast in your, whatever your favorite podcast tool is. We're on all of the platforms, Apple, Google Podcast, Spotify, and you can also watch us on YouTube. And if you don't mind giving us a hand, go ahead and leave us a review. Your reviews help us expand our audience and reach more people. And so I would love it if you would take the time just to leave us a review and let us know what you think about the show. Now let's jump into my conversation with Brian Gillette. Bryan thank you so much for joining me on the Leading to Fulfillment podcast. Bryan Gillette: Oh, it's great to be here, James, and look forward to chatting a little bit more about leadership and some great categories. James Laws: Oh I love it. The reason I started this podcast is I love talking about it, and I like talking about it from a bunch of different people who have very different experiences, so our audience can get to know you and your experiences. Could you give us a little bit of a background, the elevator pitch of who is Bryan Gillette and makes you tik? Bryan Gillette: All right. So couple things that that, that fill me is one is, I'm, Former executive Vice President of Human Resources for a technology company have been doing, running my own consulting practice for the last 10 years, focused really around leadership development, executive facilitation. So pulling teams together, helping 'em figure out where are we gonna go for the next couple of years. Also, and I know we're gonna dig into this later, an ultra-distance. Around did a lot of ultra-distance around running, around cycling, and then a father of two and a husband. I got two teenage boys at home. So that's who I am. James Laws: I love it. You, let's start right there. You talk about being an ultra-distance athlete. You do cycling, you do running, you kinda do all of that stuff. About nine years ago, I was running a lot. I ran my first marathon or my half marathon; not a masochist or anything. I'm not, I can't do that ultra-distance Stuff necessarily just yet until I was forced to stop because I had a hernia and I was recovering from surgery. And you know what? They don't tell you about running. And I didn't realize. This is when you stop running for any significant amount of time, you start over. You almost start from scratch and so I remember I was recovered. I'm like, all right, let's get back into running. And I got out there, I had just run a, like a half marathon in two hours, which. Not amazing, but it's not good. Bad. Yeah. And so I was like, so I get out there and I get on the pavement and I start running and after a mile I'm like, I'm done. I can't do it anymore. What happened? But one of the things that I notice is anecdotally, anyway, I'm trying to get back into running shape now. I've just started walking. I do about six miles a day just trying to get. Nice cardio back endurance in place. But anecdotally, I notice that it seems like a lot of entrepreneurs and business leaders are drawn to running. I see this a lot in my conversations. I see it in my Twitter feeds and all of them posting their pictures about their running, and they're posting their videos as they're cooling down or warming up for their run, giving their insights. What do you think it is that attracts them and maybe more specifically you, what got you into this activity of endurance? Bryan Gillette: When I started writing the book I had all this kind of indulge endurance background behind me. I a lot in the cycling, a lot on running, and so I started to put together the framework for the book, and then I thought, I need to go out and talk to other people. And similar to what you just talked about, I went and I interviewed a hundred people and about three quarters of them were executives, CXOs, and a lot of 'em do things outside. They have an exercise program. So you know, the executives that I talk to, they recognize the importance of being strong at. But in order to be strong at work, they also have to have a strong body. And that strong bi body starts to build a strong mind , whether it's running, whether it's cycling, whether it's swimming or whatever. You gotta be able to keep your mind your body in shape. And so I think there's also a competitiveness to it. People that reach the top of, into the executive office, they have some competitiveness in them and so you, they can get the sport out through running or cycling or swimming or whatever it is. James Laws: I've talked about this with, especially with running. The reason I love running so much for me is my ability to compete with myself. Yeah. I think as far as leadership, our goal is always to be better tomorrow than we were today. And it's an iterative process and step by step and it's, they're small changes. They're not drastic changes. And when I get out and I run, I can, I have so many metrics that I can play with. I can run a little farther, I can run a little faster, I can maybe make my splits a little bit tighter. I can, whatever the case may be. I can dig into that. So this, there is this competitive nature, even internally, like with ourselves, hey, I can beat me today from what I did yesterday. Bryan Gillette: And what you're doing, James is you. It's am I improve? and yeah, as part of being an effective leader, being good at whatever we do at work, we have to know, okay, we are getting little bit better at what we're doing. And so if it's a run or if it's a bike ride, it's normally I can go from this point to this point in 30 seconds and I just did it in 29 and a half Seconds. So you see that improvement. And so it's having those metrics, it's pushing yourself, whether it's at sport or business, I think is so critical. So you hit on some key things and I know, one of the other things I like about either getting out on a run or a bike ride is it just allows my brain to focus on something else and think through things. When I was training for one of the longer runs I had done I would go out and I could just think, and I would write a lot of stuff in my head. So I was writing blogs or writing for part of the book, and I could just go out and I could run, and then it's okay, yeah, I wanna say that and I wanna say that and I could write it in my head first, and then I al always ran with an iPhone so I could just dictate it into Siri. And cuz you know, my, as my brain gets older, it forgets more and so I would just dictate it in Siri and I'd get back to my computer. It would be there. So there, there's, yeah. James Laws: Oh yeah. I'm not as good as that. If I try to dictate, it's gonna be mostly me, panting and heaving and, but I, you're right about that. In that run the thing about running and we know this right? When you get, when you're stuck on a project, when you're stuck on an idea, when you're thinking through something, you find yourself stuck. The best thing you can do is. Dive deeper. It's not dig into it more. You're already stuck. You're just gonna get more stuck. So the best thing you can do is walk away and do something that engages your brain in a different way. That kind of, it's I look at it like our brain, like a computer. It's a reboot. It's, I have to restart the system. Yeah. Get that stuff out of working memory. Load every, do something else. And when I come back to it, I'm fresh and running. Does that for so many people. I love that when I run, I think more clearly and you don't think about it, but like you are thinking about a lot of things when you're running, you're thinking about your breathing and your pace and you're trying to make sure if you're getting cramps, you're trying to trying to land on that foot on the side of the cramp and kind of work it out and kind of power through it. You're thinking about so much and by forcing you to think about those. There's other parts of your brain that are released to have great ideas. That just come and I just I never think more clearly than after I've finished a run and I've just totally wiped kind of the computer clean for that period of time. Bryan Gillette: It's a great point and it's a good way just to get rid of that stress. I know. My, my wife will often say, if I start to get a little stressed and she'll go, hun, maybe I ought to go for a bike ride or go for a run, and that's her, that's a euphemism for her saying, you're really driving me crazy. You need to get out. And it'll it's a good stress reliever as well and just Okay. Whether it's meditation, whether it's run, you need that way, as you were talking about running and how to manage the difficult times. I often look at, when you train for something big, you have to know how to persevere through, through big challenges. And one of the things is you gotta be able to think about the big picture. It's like, why am I. But, and this is where I think you were going, is you also gotta really focus and look at what what's a small picture, what do I need today in order to keep me moving forward? What are those little things that just keep me moving forward because it's just, I need to get one more step in, I need to go, I need to go a little bit further. Yeah. How do you persevere up in the big challenge? James Laws: It's powerful stuff and I agree. You talk about high impact or high performing leaders who find themselves doing this stuff because of their competitive and other reasons. But one of the reasons too is just right they're, hopefully they didn't get to that position because they didn't have a drive to be that little bit better and prove, and this is just another place where they get to apply what is probably many times their superpower is that iterative improvement and constantly pushing forward. So when we talk about all of this running and kind of this endurance stuff. I think about the journey of your book. So you wrote a you've recently read a book at the time. This airs you. It's released, it's available. People can get it. We're gonna talk more about it. You wrote a book called Epic Performance and the kind of the byline is lessons from 100 executives, and endurance athletes on reaching your peak. Can you tell me a little bit about the journey of interacting with these hundred people in these different, what seemingly is completely separate ideas and thoughts and how they came to coalesce into this framework that you've developed. Bryan Gillette: Interviewing the a hundred people was probably one of the more enjoyable aspects of this whole because I got to talk and you get to do it all the time. You get to talk to interesting people and that's what I really liked. And one of the reasons, so I had some ideas. I had done some things and I thought, okay, this is gonna be the limit of how far I can go. And, I did it, it was like a, one of the first one was, it was a 300 mile bike. And I thought 300 miles, 24 hours through the night. The first time I'm gonna be riding through the night and I wanted to understand where does the mind and the body stop? And earlier in the day, I had seen somebody die dead on the side of the road. I had collided with another bicycle and now, I only have 25 miles left to go and I can see the finish line and I thought, I didn't come close to that limit, and it got me thinking, and this was about 10 years ago, it got me thinking that we put these limits in our head and they hold us back sometime. And then, about five years ago, my wife and I took our kids outta school for a year and we travelled around the world and as j as we are getting ready to go, friends held a going away party and a couple people came up to me and they said, I could never do that and it hit me. Wait a minute. You're telling yourself you can't do it. And those two things started to get me thinking about, okay, there's a book here. It's what is it that, gets me to think I can run or I can ride 300 miles or I can run eight marathons back to back, I've got some ideas, but I wanna go out and talk to a hundred other people, mainly executives to understand what do they do in order to set really big goals and then go ahead and achieve them. And so talking, about 75% of the people are, were at the CEO level or founders of companies, and then the other 20 to 25% were ultra-distance athletes. People that had done minimally, an iron man or equivalent run a hundred miles. Something along those. And just to learn from them and glean their experience and what, one of the big things I learned is the similarities between what they do in sport and what they do in business. There's a lot of crossover. People that are successful in one area often are successful in another area because of the mindset, because of the discipline they have the ability to see that finish line. James Laws: It reminds me of a common quote we all hear, right? Those who believe they can and those who believe they can't are both right, , right? There's this idea, like there is this mindset issue. If you continually tell yourself you can't do something, it's gonna be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like you, that's true, right? I tell this to my eight year old all the time when he says he can't do something, I'm like, you're right. As long as you keep saying. But if you don't, but those who believe they can try and surprise themselves at what they are capable of because they believe there's potential on the other side of that trying. And so I love that. Bryan Gillette: Yeah. And I heard that over and over James. And people. It's we believed we could do it. We had the confidence in ourself. I was reading an article as I was putting into the book together about a woman. She wanted to ride her bike 500 miles and she made it 300 miles. And that's still an impressive journey. And at the end she goes, I thought I could only ride 300 miles. And it's you failed before you started because you thought you could only do 300 miles. You weren't thinking you could do 500. So it, it goes back to your point of both people are right. If you, I can do it or I can't do it, you're right. James Laws: Yeah. Now, I wonder as you you're interviewing all of these people, executives, endurance athletes, some both, right? That are here in both, and you're seeing and you're seeing this crossover. I wanna put you on the spot, Brian. What was the most surprising. Insight or interview that you had that you took away from all of these calls? My guess is there's gotta be someone that you're like, Ooh, I didn't expect that. Bryan Gillette: Oh gosh. I don't know that I would say there's one, I heard this one several times from a couple of people, and when we would talk about. and I would, I'd say, what's your comfort level with risk? That was one of my general questions. And everyone, and quite a few people came back and said, I don't like to take a lot of risk. A and these are people that, maybe founded companies. These, done some pretty risky things. And they say, I don't like to talk, take a lot of risk. I like to manage my risk. . And so what I expected is these people, oh yeah I'm comfortable with risk. I have no problems. But it's like they really like to manage it and know what they're getting into and break the risk down into smaller chunks so they can better mitigate what the downside is. One of the guys I spoke to he founded a company, ended up selling it for a couple billion dollars and now he skis all over the world. Great skier. And what he was telling me, he goes, Brian, we often think about the worst case scenario. when something happens or, as we're getting ready to go into something, he goes, but what we really should be thinking about is what's the realistic worst case scenario? Because the worst case scenario is only gonna incur, chances are when a s number of things go wrong. It's generally not one thing that goes wrong. It's several things that go. In order for that worth that have to go wrong. And so how do you think about what that worst that realistic worst case scenario is? So that's that one thing that it's oh, I expected these people to come out and say, Hey, I love risk and I take it all the time. But no, that was the opposite. James Laws: So it's interesting cause I've been having this conversation with my team. We've been in this transition period where one of our particular products is being run by the team and I've stepped back and away from it and allowing them to of lead and I constantly told them right, the next great idea isn't coming from me. It's coming from you. And so you have to be, and I've taken my share of risks in building this product and getting it to where it is. The next big risks and leap is yours to take. What do you think it is? And I always encourage 'em, right? Do it. Take the chance. I've got you. Like when I started my business I talk about this. I didn't have a safety cushion at the bottom. I just of started and did it. But I get the opportunity to be that safety cushion for my team and I encourage them to say, take the risk. I got you. It's okay. We'll figure it out. , but do it. What is it that holds people back from taking those big leaps, taking those big chances to do the next big thing in their lives? Bryan Gillette: There's a million things that we're afraid of, and it's being able to understand what that fear is. Is it fear of rejection? Is it fear of impacting my career? Is it fear of losing money? Think. I think back when we were a kid, or at least when I was a kid, you'd go to the grade school dance and you'd be sitting, when I was a kid I remember like seventh or eighth grade sitting on one side of the gym. All the boys were on one side of the gym and all the girls were on the other side of the gym. And it was like four and a half miles to walk to the other side of that gym to go ask a girl out. And we were afraid. And what we were afraid of is hearing that? No, because if you got it, then you had to do the walk of shame back and it was a long walk. It's really understanding what are we afraid of? And I think the other thing is there are some people that just love trying new things, love going out on the limb and some people like to be a little bit more. It's no let's make sure everything's buttoned up. And if you've done any work around styles, like disk communication styles or Myers-Briggs and there's those types of things, there're those people that are the entrepreneurs and they'll go out. And I think as leaders we have to understand what is the style of the person and You think about when we learned to swim, we started out in the shallow end of the pool and then we worked our way to the deep end. Some people have no problems going really quickly to the deep end, and some people, the people that are more. More analytical, more focused on, okay what do we need to do? What's the steps? They're not gonna go running into the deep end really quickly, and so we have to take 'em a little bit slower from the shallow end into the deep end. And that confidence to try new things comes from being successful on smaller things. So it, that's you just may have to take people at different. James Laws: I think that's great. I wanna take that a little bit further. So we have our team. We know that one of the common reasons that, that people resist taking risks are, one is fear and some is just simply personality, right? They just have a different way that they see the world and they wanna attack it and or approach it in a different way. As leaders in an organization, we know we need to lead all our people differently. We can't be the same leader to team member A as we are to team member B. They're individuals and so they have to be led individually. And we know this, I think. Consciously, and yet sometimes we go into our organization, we cast our big vision, and we just say, and we just go and tell everyone to go. How can we as leaders be, be more encouragers and help our organizations and the individuals on our team take risks? I know one of them you already said is that help them take small wins and go through that and step slowly through that process. What are some other we can use to help? Bryan Gillette: And I think the other question to ask ourselves is, when I, so I've got five elements to Epic performance and let me of briefly go through them. The e stands for how do you envision the big things? That's where we're thinking about really big. Ideas that we wanna accomplish over the next 10, 15 years or so. The p is how do you put a plan in place to, to do that? The I is, how do you iterate? How do you of work your way up to things? You don't, you didn't start off running a half marathon. You started off running a mile, then at two miles and you worked your way up and you failed at some places, and then you succeeded. And hopefully you learned, you did because you eventually ran it. The C is how do you learn, collaborate for with other people and learn from their mistakes, learn from their successes. And the lastly, how do you perform it? So we are not great at all five areas and even the hundred people that I talk to. One of the first CEOs I talked to I worked for him the best, one of the best leaders I've ever worked for. And he goes, know, Brian I'm not strong at the strategy. He goes, I'm really good at iterating and planning, and so I have to bring people in to help with the strategy. And so figure out what your superpower is, focus there and get better there. So one strategy James is, if envision isn't their superpower, figure out what it is and have 'em focus there. It's, we don't all have to be the visionaries. Be and we shouldn't. If you have a team of visionaries, you're gonna have a great vision, but you're not gonna get anything done, , right? Yeah. So cuz you don't have the people that can tactically do it. So those people that may not have that vision it's where do they fit into the process in order to then implement it? If they want to work on their envisioning skills, one is finding out, okay, what are some of the things that they may be afraid of? Are they afraid of drowning in the deep end? And then is it a confidence issue? , how do you build that confidence up? I think the other thing, and this is when I work with teams and they say, God, we just we're not thinking big enough and we, we don't, we, we have these failures and I'm okay with failures. And then I ask what happens when a team fails? What happens? Are they rewarded? Are they, are they punished? Because if you punish them or there's some negative consequence, They're not, they're gonna be, they're gonna play it safe the next time. Yeah. So what are the types of incentives programs that encourage big thinking ideas and that's gonna get people to do the big thinking? So that the two points is, one is all right. Do we is it a superpower and should we really be building it? Or it's like, all right, how do you try to make it safe? James Laws: One, one of the things you said reminds me of something that we talk a little bit about this in our organization, we always tell everyone that this is a safe place to fail. It's okay. Failure is always an option, and failure isn't terminal. We learn from failure. We, there's so much to be gained from the experience of not quite accomplishing the thing that you wanted to accomplish and analyzing that, but I like something that you said it but didn't say it, is this, we always celebrate the wins but do we celebrate the failures? Because a failure means somebody tried something hard that was beyond them and they had, they experience that and that's how you encourage and influence risk takers is by saying when they take the risk and fall short. You don't parade them, you don't yell at them. You don't punish them. You celebrate them and say, this was awesome. Now let's talk about what we can learn from this. Thank you for taking that risk for everyone else. Let's see that, right? Bryan Gillette: I used to tell my teams, I said, okay, we're gonna set our MBOs, our goals for the quarter and you'll have your three to five goals. I want, five to 10% of your time to be focused on something that has nothing to do with those. And it's to, it's the stuff that is gonna, we're gonna need to be doing in five, 10 years. So it's that skunk works mentality. And you're not gonna be graded on that. You're not gonna be bonused on that, you're not gonna, it's not gonna be in your performance appraisal. So how do you do that? But most of the time one of the ways you figure out is do people really say, oh yeah I love I, I reward failures. We say that, but then go back and look at, let's look at some of the failures. Look at the people that you terminated in the last. Look at the people who got the low performance, look at the people who got the high performance and when a failure occurred, what happened? And really gotta dig into that because that's gonna drive it. It's, we put a lot of wi lip surface to it and say, okay, I'm okay with failure. But when that failure occurs, What happens? I was working with one client and we were talking about risk. This was years ago, and it was a fortune a Fortune 500 manufacturing company and very conservative. And so we were talking about risk and how they handle risk. And I said, where can you take more risk? And the CFO of the organization said, I am comfortable with people taking more risk in this organization as long as they analyze the numbers and assess what could go wrong. And they have very clear game plan on how to avoid, you the problems and my response was, that's not risk. When you know the answer to everything, you are not taking a risk. So I don't think you like the answer James Laws: No. I think that's a good point, right? Sometimes we can double talk people we're like, yeah, take risk, but here's what I want you to do. I want you to mitigate any possible thing that could go wrong and have a plan for doing that so that there's no chance of failure. Yeah. Risk. Comes with failure there. The chance of failure is always a possibility. If you're taking risks, there is no, there's no chance of failure. Otherwise, it's not a risk. I love that Bryan Gillette: One group I was working with recently, they put up kind of their goals for the next year or two. I, they would think it was two years. And we're looking at that up on the wall. And I said does this make you nervous? Just, did these things make you nervous? It's that nervous quotient. And they all said not really. I said, it's not big enough. You gotta go bigger. That's the good way to know if you're doing enough risk and your nervous quotient, James is gonna be different than mine. And so being able to throttle and understand where's your nervous quotient and how do we push it a little bit further? , James Laws: That is a great gauge. I love that. I think about that all the time, and I haven't quite put it in those terms, but I like that the idea is like, how do you turn up the heat just a little bit if you're not a little uncomfortable with the goal that you've set. We talk about this when we talk about OKRs and all these other ways of kind of managing performance, is that if you don't, if there's not a chance if it's a sure thing that you're gonna hit the goal. And it's not big enough. Yeah. If you're not nervous that you're gonna fail, it's not big enough. And people who wanna do big things have to risk. Sometimes some big things, right? That's a part of that process. Now I want to talk to all of the, or I want you specifically to talk to all of the people who may be listening to this. And they think, all right, this sounds like a really good framework. I love the pillars and vision, plan, iterate, collaborate, perform. I get that. That sounds good. The book, maybe a little intimidating, epic performance from, endurance athletes and, I don't know how much, I'm a bit on that, push, push, push. And you talk a lot about pushing oneself and your team to achieve extraordinary results. How do we as leaders in organizations, in what is, let's be honest, a new world, especially after the pandemic and the great resignation and people calling people back into offices, and there's this definitely this strain between employees and employers in the corporate world and really all over the world. How do we as leaders balance this need for performance? This need to stretch ourselves and take big risks and have epic perform. That with healthy practices that respect the realities of life. Yeah. Family members get sick. I, employees get sick. They're in a bad, they ne they need to take care of their mental health for other reasons. There's so much things that can ha so many things that can happen in the world. There's wars, there's so much stuff that happens. How do we balance the realities of life with the fact that we have big goals, big risks, big performance. Bryan Gillette: We could talk about this for hours. And you use, when you're describing, the book and, could be intimidating and thinking about epic performances. And my intent was to put a framework that makes it pretty easy on what you could do. And what's big for me is different than what's big for you. For me it was going out and running that eight marathons back to back. One of my clients, she is, she's trained to run a half marathon. That's not big to me. Because I've done it before, but it's big for her, and so she's stretching just as much as I stretch. So I, it's, as managers, we gotta understand where, where we can stretch people. But. what's interesting is we I hope we, I hope I can say this, are coming out of this pandemic James Laws: Yeah, Bryan Gillette: I've been saying that for a year and a half though. Oh, I was gonna say, yeah. Yeah what I hope we walk out of this thinking that I can actually do more than maybe I think I can. And if we were to back up in time three years, And, I was ahead of HR and I know that had I gone to my CEO at that time, three, three years or before, and said, Hey, I think we ought to have everybody work from home. The CEO would've said, you're nuts, Bryn. He probably would've then said, why don't we start with you? Why don't you work from home? And we're also gonna try this new thing where we're not gonna pay people or we're not gonna pay you. So I'm hopeful that it gave us the, a little bit more confidence that we can achieve bigger than we think we can. And so our job as manager, I mean you talk about all these things going on in our personal life, our job as managers has always been the pandemic. Just put a brighter light on is to understand what is going on in that person's personal life. What are some of the challenges that they may be facing personally, professionally and there are sometimes when it's okay, James, I can push you now but maybe there's other times, a year down the road when maybe you're going through a divorce or you just lost a family member. That now's not the time. I can push you. I remember one of the, one of my colleagues years ago lost his, in a period of about 18 months, lost his daughter, his mother, and one of his in-law. And he was not pushing it. He just needed to hold it together. And that's always our job as a manager to understand, okay, what is it, how far can I push somebody? And some people you can push further more I, and at different times, just because that's how they are today doesn't mean that's how they're gonna be tomorrow. James Laws: Yeah. And I think it goes back to what we said earlier in the episode, right? Is that, we're leading individuals, we must lead them individually. Yeah. And so we need to be aware of our team. That's where one-on-ones are powerful tool to get to know your team and understand what's going on in their lives and help them manage. The, perhaps the pulling of what's happening in their work culture and in their home culture and figuring out how do you make that work and how do you make sure that both those spaces are safe for them to explore whatever it is that they need to explore to get through that. I love this. I think I'm looking forward to reading through the entire book myself. I've skimmed some of it and I'm excited to dig into it. For those who want to learn more about get a hold of this book, where can they find it and how can they learn more about you and get connected to what you're doing? Bryan Gillette: Yeah. The books on Amazon as all books, so Epic Performance, Lessons of a Hundred Executives and Endurance Athletes on Reaching Your Peak. You can also go to epicperformances.com. I'm on LinkedIn, so you can go there and learn more about the book and connect up with me, I do on the on the epic performances. I have an assessment that allow you, and it's a free assessment for anybody listening that they can go on and assess how well they do each of the five pillars, envision, plan, iterate, collaborate, and perform, and it'll lasts for a company code. And so then you can go ahead and type in leadership. And that will get you through. James Laws: Awesome. Bryan Gillette: We're not good at all Five. James Laws: No, you're right. As I look through them and this is true of, there's lots of organizational systems out there. If you are looking to adapt this one has all of the things that you need to think through your business and prepare to process through. But like all of them, right? We have strengths and we have weaknesses. And good leaders surround themselves with people who make up for their weaknesses. I know I'm not great at this. I'm honestly, I'm not great at the. A lot of times in the execution. I'm great with the plan, I'm great with the initial idea and casting the vision and communicating and getting people hyped up. But then it's like, all right, I did that. I just like who's next? Who do I hand this off to take it the rest of the way. Bryan Gillette: And that's where we have to collaborate. That's why. That's right. Yeah. James Laws: Yeah. Absolutely. So I encourage everyone, get a copy of this book, check it out. Bryan, thank you so much for being on the podcast Today. I look forward to many more conversations with you. Bryan Gillette: Thank you, James, for the time. James Laws: I wanna thank Brian for taking the time to be on the show and join me as we talk to this idea of epic performance. Now, everything that we mentioned on this show including a full transcript of the show, is available over on my website, which has changed. This is something new. We just recently transitioned, ciircles.com and leadingtofulfillment.com. Both addresses will point to jameslaws.com, but the new website is jameslaws.com. You can find all the information about this episode on my website there. There you can also subscribe to my brand new newsletter. We're calling it Leading Culture. So if you wanna subscribe to the leading culture newsletter, it's where I talk about leadership. Culture and remote teams. So if you're interested in that kind of information, sign up. I send out a weekly tool or framework or idea to challenge how we lead cultures in our organization. And so I would really encourage you to sign up and be a part of that. It's gonna be a lot of fun. What we talked about today was a lot about leading a healthy and sustainable team and I want you to remember these words as you interact with your team moving forward to lead well. Tune in. If you wanna lead your team well, you need to understand what they're dealing with from day to day. And this doesn't just mean knowing when they have a sick family member or planning a big vacation or knowing their kids' little league schedule. It's great if you do, it's awesome. But oftentimes the things that are impacting your team aren't so obvious or they require greater empathy to really connect to. So how has your team handled things like the pandemic for. All right. That's probably an easy one, but how about Russia invading Ukraine? How about the senseless murder of people of color by police? Or what about when there was all of the BLM protests going on? How have various members of your team been impacted by the overturning of Roe V Wade, or any number of other contentious battles around the world? The point is that your team has a lot coming at them from all direct. In order to be mindful and an empathetic leader, you need to know what's going on in the world and take a moment to consider how these things could be influencing the current mental health of the individuals on your team. You're not a psychic though, so you need to actually talk to your team about these things, about what's going on in the world and what's about what's going on in their lives. Make your one-on-ones a safe place to express all the things that might be impacting them, and then let them know what you can do to help them navigate the storm. So one more time for the people way in the back, to lead well, tune in. Thanks for listening, and I hope you'll join me on the next episode. And until then, may your businesses be successful as you lead your teams

In today's world, the landscape for Human Resources is shifting. While all the moving pieces have yet to settle its clear strategic human resource practices are no longer confined within the walls of a corporate office. How can companies develop strategic people-first policies. In this episode we discuss… The goal of organizational and HR development The movement from HR to People Ops The movement from co-located to remote or hybrid work Investing in our companies by investing in our people About Our Guest Kellie is President and Owner of Kellie Tinnin Consulting, LLC a learning and development consulting firm based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. With a passion for learning and skills in instructional design, organizational development, and training techniques, Kellie's goal is to help organizations succeed by developing training and leading organizations in a fresh and innovative manner. Resources Mentioned on the Show https://www.kellietinnin.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/kellie-tinnin-consulting-llc https://www.instagram.com/thekellietinnin/ The Transcript Kellie Tinnin: An employer standpoint, you never know even a small impact how it can change somebody's life. And I think as organizations, as employers, as leaders, and we're all guilty of it, but I try to think that way because you just never know the opportunity that you're giving somebody the opportunity to grow, to reskill, what, whatever the flexibility. You just never know how that's going to impact somebody. And at the end of the day, we're all, yeah, we're running businesses. Yeah. Unfortunately, I like to eat and pay my bills, but, but we're all a part of this bigger community and world together. And, and just being able to impact somebody's positively that helps them long term, I think is a bigger picture. James Laws: Welcome to another episode of the Leading the Fulfillment podcast, where everything that we talk about is meant to encourage people first. Leaders empower individuals to achieve fulfillment and to help your organizations become places people love to work. I'm your host, James Laws, and my guest for this episode is Kellie Tinnin. Kellie is president and owner of Kellie Tinnin Consulting LLC, a learning and development consulting firm based in Albuquerque, New Mexico, with a passion for learning and skills in instructional design, organizational development and training techniques. Kellie's goal is to help organizations succeed by developing training and leading organizations in a fresh and innovative manner. In my conversation with Kellie, we discuss the goal of organizational and H.R. development the movement from H.R. to People APS, the movement from co-located to remote or hybrid work and investing in our companies by investing in our people. But first, I want to invite you to subscribe and leave a review for the Leading to Fulfillment podcast and whatever place you listen to podcasts. We are in all the places including Apple, Google, Podcasts, Spotify, and yes, you can watch us over on YouTube as well. Now let's jump into my conversation with Kellie. James Laws: Kellie, thanks so much for joining me on the Leading Fulfillment podcast. Kellie Tinnin: Thank you. Good to see you, James. James Laws: I am excited to have this conversation, you know, to kind of kick us off. And for those listening, let's start off with you give a little bit of an introduction on who you are, what you do and what you're about. Kellie Tinnin: Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Kellie Tinnin. I'm in Albuquerque, New Mexico. So surrounded by the Sandia mountains. And really, really, I'm an organizational development and human resource development consultant here in Albuquerque. And I serve small businesses here in the Southwest. But, I typically tell people like the three things to know about me are I have three English bulldogs at home, so little meatballs with legs. I like to call myself a forensic scientist thanks to the investigation Discovery channel so and in my retired in my retirement I probably will be cleaning the elephant cages at the zoo at night. James Laws: My wife likes to call herself an investigative journalist because of her ability to find anything out about anyone through social media. She's an expert. I don't know how she does it, but she's very good at. You talked about doing organizational development and development. Yeah. What is when you talk about human resources development and perhaps as you work with clients, what exactly does human resource development mean or organizational develop mean for you as you're going into an organization? Kellie Tinnin: So really, really how I like to encompass that is in really one statement like building something better together and that means organizations and people. So when people think of human resource, human resources in general, they typically think of benefits, compensation, or everyone gets scared when they have to go to the H.R. Office and that's one arm of it. But that's really not what I do. I really help from the organizational side. People develop their organizations, build culture, build leaders, and I help from the human element side to build people. So to build people up, to be better, to work better because I, I really feel well, I mean, I know from experience we spend so much time at work, whether we're working for somebody, we're working for ourselves. That's what we spend so much time doing. And when people can be happy at work, it's even proven that when people are happy at work, they perform better, they are happier. They really work towards the mission of the company and it really drives the organization's success. And so that's really what my goal is. James Laws: I agree. I mean, the whole purpose of starting this podcast is from this, from the standpoint, and I say this, I feel like I end up saying this almost in every single episode is that I'm trying to help my team and my team members find fulfillment because I don't you know, it to me, it's maybe even the next level of happiness. It's not just happiness, but it's like feeling. When you get to the end of your day, it's feeling full and enriched and excited to do it all over again tomorrow. And that and we there's so much buzzword talk about like let's create employee engagement and let's do all these things. And I'm like, I don't want to just create activity. I just I'm not measuring whether or not my team is active as I'm measuring. Are we making progress and do they feel that they have a purpose in what they're doing? Are they excited and passionate about the work that they're doing? And if I don't have those ingredients and I'm not doing my part as a leader and as a manager for my team, now you talk about the two arms of kind of human resources. We ended up like many organizations like ours, we ended up renaming our H.R. Departments to people ops, right? Because that's, that's exactly I think in vein with what you're talking about is we're talking about developing people and giving and thinking about people in the organization that, you know, let's be honest, H.R. has kind of a bad stigma, right? Like H.R. I mean, and rightfully so in most corporations, right? H.R. is not there for the benefit of the employee. They're there for the benefit of the employer and to keep them right. Legal trouble. Right. Right. Small businesses like ours. And my guess is small businesses and organizations that you work with don't think of their H.R. departments that way. They think of them as as liaisons and resources for the people to serve the people and to make sure and hold the leaders accountable. So how do you think about this kind of new movement toward a way, almost from human resources and towards people operations? Kellie Tinnin: Well, it's interesting because I think I think culturally over time, we've been we've been shifting that way and shifting that way in the work in the workforce and even more so during the pandemic. I think it's like those monkeys that used to come in the jar that you used to connect together, it's like we're in the jar and we just I don't know where that came from, but it just popped in my head. But it's like we've thrown the jar on the ground and we're and we're kind of trying to rebuild. And I think it's a positive thing. I think as organizations, I think our goal are we should hopefully be hiring people that are that are better than us or more knowledgeable than us in certain areas to carry out certain tasks. Kellie Tinnin: And H.R. In leadership should be there to drive the direction and let those people do what they're best at. And so it's really kind of I would hope to see it as really a guiding force. James Laws: You know, it's interesting that you talk about that and in that kind of that hiring process of hiring people who are better than we are at the thing I think about when I started my business and the first people I tried to hire were generalists, right? I wanted people could do a lot of different things really well, not people could specialize in a specific thing. And when I was hiring generalists, I realized I only needed them to be 80% as good as I was. Like, if they could get it, even the 80% level that I would put it to, I was happy with that. But as my business grow has grown and as I've added more people to the team that has shifted and now I'm looking for somebody who's doing it 120% better than me. I'm now it's way on the other side of the spectrum. And so it's kind of interesting that as you look at organizational development, you look at, you know, human resources development, that there is stages in which your business of which you are looking for very specific things, and that changes over time. I'd be interested to hear when you coach a business, when you kind of step into that relationship with a business, what is your process look like? How do you go through that? Kellie Tinnin: Well, I think there's a lot of discovery involved. I think it it really takes a lot of sitting down with the organization and talking with them, walking around and really just trying to get a feel. You have to really, I think, get a sense for it's kind of like the concept of meeting people where they're at. You have to get a sense for where they're at to really help them build that ladder, to get them where they're going. And so I think a lot of times people will call and they'll say, Oh, well, we need this, we need training. My managers aren't doing what they're supposed to do or we need we need this. Well, is that really the root of the problem? Is are they not doing what they're, quote, supposed to do because they're just not doing it or is it because there's some other problem and 9.5 times out of ten, there's something else that's the cog in the wheel. And so I think really spending a lot of time in that discovery phase trying to find out, okay, what is what is really going on here so that we can build the appropriate steps to really get to where you want to go? James Laws: No, I agree. I think that when you look at an organization, especially if you're coming in from the outside and honestly, this is true for the leadership and management of their own teams, there is this like tendency to kind of and we I can't remember the actual the name of this kind of principle or law that we've kind of given it to, where we judge ourselves by our intentions and we judge other people by their actions. So when, when, when I'm late, it's because, well, the car broke down or traffic was really bad or, you know, something happened, you know, I had to take care or something with my kid and it made me late. But when someone else is late, it's your lazy. You don't respect me, you don't care about the work that we're doing and stuff like that. And there is this level too in organization as you're coming in to kind of say like take a step back, assume the best and really dig into what's going on. Because as you said, 9.5 out of ten times the issue is probably not that they don't want to do it right. It's probably more that there's a lack of clarity. There's probably some stuff going on in the organization or at home. There's stuff going on in the world. Think about the world that we've lived in, which I think is a good kind of a transition point. We're in a in a very chaotic time in people's individual careers. And then organizations call it the great resignation, call it, as some people I just heard on the news the other day calling it the great return, as people are calling it, these organizations are calling people back into the offices. That that was a trauma. You know, none of us were prepared for this. Nobody got a class on. How do you deal with a situation? Kellie Tinnin: Like I told my husband, when this when it all happened at the time, we were both working for different organizations and I said, oh, okay, it'll be like two weeks, it'll be like two weeks. And he's like, You are right. And then and then here we are like two years later. James Laws: It's exactly right. And that's the truth, right? Nobody would have predicted that two years later, we would still be having the conversation. And, you know, I'm glad that it feels like we're on the back end of it, even though there's still uncertainty. I'm glad that there is a move towards what I can only call a new normal. It's not back to the way it was. And I think that's indicative of this great resignation, because what the great resignation has done for us, I think, in a lot of ways is it's given a lot of employees, a lot of people got them out of the current confines of their cubicle or their corporate office. And they start to realize, like, I don't ever want to go back to that. Like I can do my job in a different way. I'd love to hear your take on this whole great resignation and how you feel it's changing the current. Kellie Tinnin: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I actually think it's changed for the better in some ways. I think it's like, like you said, we don't have.. I think people have realized we don't have to go to an office to get our work done. We don't necessarily have to work on schedule from 9 to 5. Maybe I'm more productive at 10 to 6 or 10 to 3. And that's what I'm going to do. Yeah. Like somebody once told me, I, we're not putting the toothpaste back in the tube. And I have been seeing some things where well, we got to get back to the office. And it's like, why I'm not saying I'm not and I'm not saying that, you know, everybody you know, certain businesses are more, you know, conducive to having people in an, you know, in an office or or whatever. But why not why not innovate and try new things? I think people have realized, too, that they don't want their life to be defined by what they do in terms of work. And people want to do things that they want to do things I think that have me have meaning and give them a sense of purpose. But also they don't want to be defined by my work and I spend all my time commuting and going to work. I want to see my family and I want to do this and that and I think that's been a contributor as well to some of the things that have been going on. And also people want to work in environments where they're respected, where they feel like they're doing a good job for somebody. And I think also that's why some of the retail food industries and in industries like that may be struggling because that's the treatment that some people get. And in those environments and that's terrible. I think we as a society should look at some of that and like, let's just be kind rewind, you know, to everybody. James Laws: It is, you know, for employers, for small businesses, for large businesses, for corporations. Instead of looking at this as the great resignation, we ought to be looking at it as the great opportunity. We have a great opportunity. It's been handed to us to think differently about our organizations and think differently about how we treat our people and where and the loyalty imbalance that is that has obviously been going on for a very long time. And what you're seeing is a bunch of people now are voting with their feet and saying, I am not going to work in an oppressive environment where I am expected to be loyal to the organization with all of my time and all of my energy. But the organization is not going to return that loyalty to me by perhaps providing me with a flexible work schedule and by providing me the ability to work where I work at my best to make sure that I can spend time with my family and my friends and have a a what I would call what I call. Often we talk about this on the show, work life integration, because I don't I'm not trying to balance work in life. I'm not trying for these things to be equal, even things I am looking to integrate work into my life because work is a part of it, right? We spend most of us spend a third of our lives working for ourselves or for someone else. We spend it working. And I want that to be integrated into my life in a way that is healthy and meaningful and purposeful, that I can actually feel the impact of my work, not just on the job that I do for the organization, but on my family and on my friends and all of these different areas. So yeah, I agree. Right. That that this is an opportunity for organizations to kind of rethink their struggle. I wonder what your thoughts are on what the lasting ramification of the great resignation will be? Because I do agree. I think it's changed forever and I think it's changed for the good. But I'm curious what your take is on some of the lasting ramifications of that are. Kellie Tinnin: Yeah, I think we're going to see probably more I think hybrid workplaces, remote work is going to definitely become more of the norm, more of that work life integration is going to become more of the norm. I was just thinking of this and a lot of in terms of retail restaurants I've seen at least here and I'm sure in other places, more self-serve type stuff and different things like that. And I know when you talked about opportunity people are kind of afraid of that. Like what? Like self-checkout. I have to order by McDonald's from the McDonald's robot now and is that an opportunity long term for employers to reskill their employees like, hey, we value you here, we want you here, let's get you? It's not a loss of jobs. It's an opportunity to reskill the people that are there and say, hey, we need people to help program these are we need help people to help facilitate and manage these different programs. Let's build your skills so that you can get paid more. You can stay on. But now you've grown your skills into our organization and this change that has happened. So I really hope that we see more of that. James Laws: Yeah, I agree. I think organizations have to start thinking about the development of their teams and helping them. You know, I said this I can't a number of times. Well, it's my podcast, so I repeat myself a lot, obviously. So I'll just put that out there for all the listeners. But you know, we call ourselves small businesses, we call ourselves job creators, and we are. But it's not just create a role and then fill it. It's continuously shaping it for the people that embody the role. So those roles is, you know, if I hire somebody to be a social media manager, you know, three different people are going to tackle that in three different ways. And I'm going to shape that role differently for each of those individual people, because they have different personalities, different experiences, different understandings. And it's not that their skills may not all be top notch, right? It's that they are different individuals. And we need to look at that. And I like what you said about kind of this idea of pivoting a little bit and thinking in that development. So one of the businesses that we own is a local coffee roaster. So we have a brick and mortar store. People come by coffee, right? So we do the whole thing for award winning. We roast our own coffee, do all this stuff in-house. Well, when the pandemic hit, obviously lots of restaurants and coffee shops shut had to shut their doors because they couldn't have people in the restaurant. So, you know, I had the privilege and the and perhaps the benefit of also owning a technology company. And so we quickly built an online app and started doing curbside. That was something we were able to kind of pivot and do kind of pivot with the great, you know, pivot with the pandemic and kind of adjust through all of that stuff. But what it also did is it opened up an opportunity for us to say, you know what, we need to do more sales online, not just like selling prepared drinks, but selling our whole being coffee and our brew methods and all of the other stuff that we develop and we have available. And so we've started to shift that attention and train the baristas and the team that works for the coffee shop to do different things than just, you know, and I say just I consider it a great art for them to make me to make our community coffee. But, you know, not just make coffee, but also think about how do we expand the business in other directions. And so the pandemic has been an opportunity to do things like that. Kellie Tinnin: Yeah. And I mean and how great is it to, to be able to bring your employees along for that and for them to be able to make a difference in your organization by diversifying your efforts, but also from an employer standpoint, you never know even a small impact how it can change somebody's life and I think I think as organizations, as employers, as leaders, I and we're all guilty of it. But I, I try to think that way because you just never know the opportunity that you're giving somebody the opportunity to grow, to reskill what, whatever the flexibility. You just never know how that's going to impact somebody. And at the end of the day, we're all yeah, we're running businesses. Yeah. Unfortunately, I like to eat and pay my bills, but, but we're all a part of this bigger community and world together and, and just being able to impact somebody is to impact somebody positively. That helps them long term, I think is a bigger picture. James Laws: I you know. Yeah, absolutely. In fact, a lot of this podcast, you know, while it only you know started this year and ciircles.com which is where the podcast live started a little bit before that that all was burst out of the pandemic and looking at my team and thinking about what they must be going through. Right, because the world changed for us almost overnight. Now, we were fortunate enough that we had gone remote and had became a distributed company before the pandemic happened. But by months, not by years, because we were co-located before that. So as we had kind of made this transition, I was really thinking about the fact that so many of my team had immediately become also home schoolers and also become, you know, caretakers for sick loved ones, had also been, you know, had spouses who were unemployed because of the places that they work, had to lay them off like the team had gone through so much. And as I saw that and I was kind of feeling that started to kind of shape a kind of a new mission within our organization. And that's where this podcast was birthed out of. And that's where Circles and all the stuff that we write and the videos that we produce are all about helping other organizations become places people love to work by treating their staff well, with respect and helping them ultimately find fulfillment in the roles within their organizations. Because I believe that if you take care of your team and if you help them find fulfillment, your business will likely have nothing to worry about because. They will die on the hill of taking care of the customer and making sure the business succeeds because they have that sense of connection and ownership. There's something there that and it's and here's the thing. We don't do it. And this is I just heard this recently, and I think this is a good point. Right. We don't treat our employees with respect and treat them great because it will make us more money. Right. We do it because it's the right thing to do. And the inevitable side effect of that is, yeah, our businesses will probably be okay and we'll probably make enough money. Kellie Tinnin: Yeah, no, absolutely. It's funny because we still I think as a culture and culture shifts take a long time. We, we still kind of have that mindset, that industrial revolution mindset that I have to tell people what to do and they have to put the pig in the hole and they're going to do what I say. And and on the whole, people don't go to work to do a crap job. They don't show up and think, Yeah, I'm going to do a crappy job today, and that's going to be awesome. They, they want to do a good job and they want to feel fulfilled. And absolutely, I think if you treat people, you treat people well, you treat them like like people. And I don't know if partners is the right word, but but you really respect and value where they're expertize, what they're good at, you know, where they're coming from. They will get in the trench with the shovel and bail you out just as just as fast. James Laws: You know, I don't hate the term partners. I'll tell you right now, I don't hate that term. And the reason it's funny, we called our team members partners for the longest time. The only reason we stopped is because it was kind of getting confusing. And the reason I was getting confusing is because I have business partners. We had partners in the organization one business partnering with another business. And then we called everyone on our team partners. And then there were other things that were coming up and we're like, All right, it's getting hard to like, have to differentiate. What kind of partner am I talking about when I say the word partner, that's the only reason we stopped, because I actually agree that what I do when we hire someone into our organization is we are entering into a partnership, right. I am partnering with them to do something that is meaningful and fulfilling. It's not just it's not you know, gone are the days where it's I'm trading money for time. That's I'm not I'm not hiring people to push a button or pull a lever like that's not what we're doing. I'm, I'm, I am inviting you to partner with something you believe in. And if you don't believe in it, then let me help you find a place that you love and that you do believe in it. And I will help you make that connection and get in that organization, because that's what I want. I have no illusion that there are going to be people who work for me that are going to go on and start their own business. And I'm excited for the day. Like, I'm excited for them to do that. And so that's it. We are partners. I actually really love that kind of term. Kellie Tinnin: Oh, yeah. Well, thank you know, but absolutely. And, and, you know, and when you create these good relationships, I mean, they're long lasting because for instance, the places that I have that I have worked at, I've had great relationships and partnerships with those individuals. And I, I joke kind of that I, I still go to their office. Like the last week I was at one of my old employer's offices. There was some work being done at my house and I needed somewhere to go for a couple of hours. And, and I show up there and they're like, Hey, what's going like, Hey, what's going on? And it's, you know, in there. And there's still people that I rely on, like, hey, I need advice about this. Or, what do you think about this? And one of them I still do work for. And so it's yeah, it's just about relationships, I think at the heart of everything, we probably need more of that in our lives. James Laws: Well, yeah, I, think you're right. I think probably part of the problem with the, the challenge in the transition of human resources or the, the bad rap the human resources get is that we forget the human part of it. We focus too much on the resources part of it. Yeah. That's why I think there is this idea of talking about like people ops and trying to reframe and rename because ultimately what has happened is human resources become about resources. How do we resource people to do the bidding of the organization instead of thinking like, No, we are humans working together in partnership to accomplish a unified goal that we both care about and so how do we get back to the human part of business? How do we get back to truly being human? Now, this is a little bit of a transition and a pivot, but you did talk a little bit about like the ramifications of the great resignation and that probably, you know, which I agree. Certainly many more remote companies. Right. Many more companies that are distributed first. Also, you talk about many more hybrid companies. Now, when I back in 2019, before the pandemic happened, I made the decision to move our team from a co-located onsite team to a fully distributed team. And the reason I made that decision is because I hate the idea of hybrid teams. I may be wrong, but I feel like there's always feels like an us and them dynamic in a hybrid environment, because there's the there's the home based team, the people to get to work together and see each other and play together. And then there's everybody else. And I wonder, what are your thoughts on how I wonder, do have you worked with some clients who work in a hybrid structure? And if you have or have some experience there, how do you do that? Kellie Tinnin: I think the struggle is real for a lot of organizations. And I it's just about having those resources in place to be able to still create those relationships. And maybe it's maybe it is a weekly gathering and I hate the word meeting, but, you know where we get together for this for the week and you know, talk about what's going on, you know, there's lots of resources out there today where we can all connect via, you know, if it's slack or different things like that to keep people connected and even partnering people up at some point like, hey, you guys have, you know, similar interests or you're in a you're in a similar role or maybe you're, you know, you're in Department A and you're in Department B, but you guys, I think personality wise would really mesh. And so you're going to be in partnerships or mentor roles and you're that way you can work together and help develop those relationships. You know, one person being offsite and on or have you never experienced a lot where you've got people collectively in an organization who work, who kind of switch off like, I'm two days in and two days three days out and the set schedule switches. So everybody's kind of dipping, you know, dipping in that I'm at home, I'm at the office environment, too. And so I think it's just it's really about being methodical about how you're going to help your team maintain those relationships. James Laws: Yeah, I know. And as you were talking, I started to think about like, yeah, there are some really interesting things that can be done, like every onsite person being paired with a remote site person. So creating a connection and a relationship there that glues somebody outside of the office with somebody inside the office and creating that as being a more important relationship, perhaps, and the person who sits in the office next door. And so creating that kind of dynamic and yeah, there is certainly is a lot of virtual tools out there to bring people together. The challenge is when we had a few people who would sometimes work remote, so we were always remote friendly even though we were co-located, what we end up seeing is that a lot of times you have these like sidebar conversations at the watercooler or in an office, and none of that gets recorded online for everyone else to see. And so inevitably somebody is kind of always in the dark in that kind of environment. So you're right, you have to be intentional about the relationships, intentional about the communication, and make sure that you have systems and processes in place to make sure that clarity doesn't kind of slip through the cracks. Kellie as we're kind of wrapping up, what's something that I should have asked you or we should have talked about that you'd like to share today? Kellie Tinnin: Um, gosh, I don't know. Well, I'm always up for talking about my dogs. I'm a dog lover. That has nothing to do with Odie or H.R. But, you know, it has to do with people. James Laws: If your dogs bring you fulfillment then. I mean, I guess it's a safe topic. Kellie Tinnin: I'm the why can't we bring our dogs to work person? And I'm also the one with the animals that are all over the place. So it's a yeah, kind of joking there. But, but yeah, I always have to give them a shout out because they're funny. They bring me lots of joy. You know, pets are special creatures. James Laws: Absolutely. 100%. I mean, we already talk about all of the therapeutic elements of having a pet and just, you know, loving on a pet and what it can do for your mental health and your own endorphins and all of that kind of stuff. So, yeah, absolutely. I love the fact that you have three sloppy messy all over the place. Kellie Tinnin: I do. I always joke when people come over, I'm always like, I'm sorry if my house smells. I'm sorry, sorry. It's not me. It's the dogs. James Laws: Thank you so much for being on the podcast today. If somebody wants to get in touch with you, learn more about your services and what you do. How can they do that? Kellie Tinnin: Yeah, so totally. You can visit my website it's Kellietinnin.com with an I E Kellie TinninTinnin.com. You can find me by the same name on social media. I'm all over Instagram, LinkedIn and on Facebook. So hit me up and you know, I'll shamelessly share pictures of my dogs with you. James Laws: Awesome. Kellie Tinnin, thank you so much for being on the show today. Kellie Tinnin: Thank you. James Laws: Thanks to Kellie Tinnin for joining me for this conversation. Everything that we mentioned, including a full transfer report of the show, it's available over on our website and you can access it any time by visiting LeadingToFulfillment.com/026. Also on that website, you can subscribe to our newsletter there. We'll let you know every time new episodes become available as well as send you original and curated content and leadership managing teams and finding fulfillment. If you're listening to this podcast, chances are you want to create the kind of company where people love to work. After all, who wouldn't want to lead a team of energized, fulfilled and innovative people? But this shift probably sounds like a huge undertaking. Fortunately, doesn't have to be. While fostering this kind of company culture requires shaking up the status quo, it can be accomplished in small chunks. You don't have to completely overhaul your company processes, procedures and expectations overnight. Nor should you. Changes have a big impact and people need time to adjust, ask questions and offer feedback so you don't have to turn your company upside down to make a difference. In fact, many small changes can make a big difference, and they're easy to implement right away. Small changes can also totally shift your company culture, leading to happier and more fulfilled employees. Start small, and soon your changes will snowball into something much, much greater. Thanks for listening and I hope you'll join me on the next episode and until then. But your business will be successful as you lead your teams to fulfillment.

Inside of each and every one of us is great potential, but often times it goes unrealized. “Own Your Amazing” is a powerful journey about defining, owning and claiming your true potential regardless of what anyone else has to say. In this episode we discuss… What does it mean to “Own Your Amazing” and Dr. Denise's journey?The permission to define what your business and success should look likeThe importance of the two-way street of trust in leadershipSome practices of self-care in the pursuit of fulfillment About Our Guest Dr. Denise is a CEO, founder, an award-nominated, best-selling author, speaker, and personal development coach. For over 25 years, she has literally helped people find their voices. As a speech-language pathologist (therapist), her job has been helping her clients discover their voice. She founded The Own Your Amazing Movement as an extension of the message of finding your own voice and living your worth out loud. Through coaching, mentoring, and workshops, Dr. Denise empowers women to find their unique voice, live their worth out loud, and create amazing lives they love. Resources Mentioned on the Show ownyouramazingnow.com The Transcript Dr. Denise Moore Revel: Absolutely. But one of the things I would like to say about coaching is that coaching is, like you say, it's to help you to see your blind spots. Right. I think about all the great athletes, the Michael Jordan's, you know, Serena Williams, you name it, they all have coaches. It's not because they they're trying to make them great. It's just they're there to see the blind spots. Because when you're on the court, you're playing the game of life. You don't see somebody coming behind you. You're right side, your back side or whatever. You don't see that your forehand is not, you know, following through, but your coach is there to see that. And so I've always had a coach, you know, when I even when I started my business, I had a business coach because there was one thing I was like, Oh, I need to do this. He was like, No, you don't need to do that. You need to pay attention to this. I was like, Oh, okay. And then over the years, I've had life coaches because I believe, again, they can see my blind spots because I'm in my life, I'm living it on a daily. I don't see all the different things. And so, so when I do coaching, I do business coaching, but I also do I call it personal development coaching. But I help the person is figure out like, well, who are you for? James Laws: Welcome to another episode of the Leading the Fulfillment podcast, where everything we talk about is mentoring, courage, people first leaders empower individuals to achieve fulfillment and to help your organizations become places people love to work. I'm your host, James Laws, and I have a great show in store for you. My guest for this episode is Dr. Denise Moore Revel. Dr. Denise is a CEO founder and an award nominated bestselling author, speaker and personal development coach. For over 25 years, she has literally helped people find their voices, has a speech, language, pathology, just her job has been helping her clients discover their voice. She founded there the own your own amazing movement as an extension of the message of finding your own voice and living your worth out loud. Coaching, mentoring and workshops. Dr. Needs empowers women to find their unique voice, live their worth out loud, and create amazing lives. They love it. My conversation with Dr. Neiss we discuss What does it mean to own? You're amazing. And Dr. Denise is personal journey the permission to define what your business and success should look like? The importance of the two way street of trust in leadership and some practices of self-care and the pursuit of fulfillment. But first, I want to invite you to subscribe and leave a review for the Leading Fulfillment podcast. In your favorite podcast tool, we are literally in all of the places, so if you want to watch us on Apple or listen to us on Apple, Google Podcasts, Spotify or yes, you can watch us on YouTube. Now let's jump into my conversation with Dr. Denise Moore Revel. Dr. Denise, thank you so much for joining me on the Leading the Fulfillment podcast. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: Thank you so much for having me today. I'm looking forward to our conversation. James Laws: I think we're going to have a lot of fun. So to dove in for those who don't know who you are and may want to know a little bit about your background, what you're all into. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and let us know what you're all about? Dr. Denise Moore Revel: Awesome. So my name is Dr. Denise Moore Rizal. I call myself an urban baile. I know some of you have heard of a southern baile. I wasn't urban be all right. So I was born actually in Washington, D.C., which is the urban part. But I was raised in a very small town in North Carolina, so that's where you get the urban baile. So I say my roots run Southern. I love sweet tea. So but you know, definitely I've been in the Washington, D.C. area for almost 30 years. My my schooling, my career as a speech language pathologist is what brought me to the area. And so I've been a speech pathologist for over 27 years now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so have thoroughly enjoyed it. But I am looking to transition out of my profession in the next few years and focus more on my new company, the new amazing movement. So we could talk more about that as well. James Laws: Absolutely. So, yeah, actually, let's let's dove into that a little bit because I love that I love the kind of the name of this own. You're amazing, right? This is a pretty interesting concept. Tell us a little bit about what is what is on your amazing what does it mean was a stand for what's it all about? Dr. Denise Moore Revel: Absolutely. So I've been on this journey of self-discovery for many, many years. Right. So I graduated from graduate school, was doing, you know, working professionally, doing well, but I still wasn't happy. And for feel, you know, I felt like something was missing. And so I got on this journey of self-discovery, like, okay, who am I? What is my life really about? What am I doing with my life? So I started reading books and attending retreats and things like that. So about six years ago, I attended a retreat in Dallas, Texas. And so I arrived on that Friday and I met one of the attendees and we went out to dinner just to get to know one another, talk, share each other's stories. So the next day was the actual retreat and the facilitator, the coach. She allowed each person to come up to the front of the room and get coached. So as I'm sitting in the audience watching everyone else, you know, they're getting very emotional and they're crying. And I'm sitting in my chair thinking like, why are they crying? What is going on? Okay, whatever. Right? So this is my journey to come to the front of the room and to get coached. As soon as I sat down in the chair, I started crying. I mean, an ugly cry. And I know what that is like, what is going on. I was like, I don't know. I just don't feel happy. I don't I feel like there's something missing in my life. So the person I had gone out to dinner with the night before, she raised her hand and she said, I know what's wrong with you. Now, mind you, I just met her. The day before. So in my mind I'm thinking, you don't know me. We just met how you know, I've been on this journey and you know what's wrong with me? I didn't say any of that. Of course I was thinking it was so I just looked at her and I said so what's going on with me? She said to me, She say, You're smart, you're brilliant, you're talented. She said, You know all these things she said, but you know, own it. She said, You need to all you're amazing and stop playing small. I was like, Oh my God, that's it. That is it. People in the room was like, Oh, I just got chill bumps. People were crying. I started to cry again because it was like she helped me to language what I had been feeling. I knew there was more for me to do. I knew that I had been discounting myself. I knew I was not owning my amazing. I was too busy criticizing myself, still thinking I wasn't smart enough, still thinking I wasn't good enough. And here this person was. I was like, No, you need to own it. Not only you, but everyone else. So I've been on a mission since that day to help people, especially women. So all our amazingness, the good, the bad and the amazing, that is my mission. James Laws: Well, it's a really that's a really cool story. It's it's kind of interesting, like in a moment to get a get a piece of clarity and someone to actually name your business. Right, right then and there. But I know and I think most of our listeners know, right. As entrepreneurs, as business owners, that that moment of clarity is is a great kind of catalyst to get started. But the journey isn't easy. And so my guess is you're on this journey now, trying to find happiness, trying to find fulfillment in the work that you do. You've got this glimmer of perhaps some things that need to change. Tell me about the early stages of that journey, because I imagine. Right. You didn't you didn't walk out of there and like there's my business and here's what I'm doing. Like, what? What what was that like walking away from that intense. Right. It's an intense experience. There's something about when you get a group of people who all want the same thing, fulfillment, joy in their in their in their endeavors. After you walk away from that intense moment, what does that journey feel like for you, as you say? All right. Now I'm going to start that journey towards fulfillment. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: I remember once I left that session, I got on the phone and call one of my sisters and tell her about it. And I was like, I have got to share this with the world in some capacity. I didn't know how, but I knew even the people around me, my family, my friends, brilliant people. But I saw them also playing small, not really going for their dreams, not really living authentically, just kind of going through the motions of people, please, and all those things, right? And so she was like, You have to share it. And so when I got back from Texas, I assembled my family and we had a small session and I shared with them my thoughts. And then so they were to want to say, you got to share this with more people. More people need this. And so that's how it started. And so as the journey has gone on, I have done some clarification and clarifying the message and just but it's all part of my own personal journey too. You know, as I am saying, like, this is who I am now. I'm encouraging other people to do the same. Has it been easy? No, but it's been fulfilling. It's been amazing. But but the biggest part that has been amazing to me is seeing other people get the aha the light bulb goes off for them. I do business coaching. One of the things I love is when I when I sit down with my clients, I ask them, So what do you want your business to be? And they start out by saying, Well, it should be this and it should be that. But I said, No, no, no, no, no. What is it that you want? You have an opportunity to create exactly what you want your business to be. What is it that you want? When I tell you, they struggle with that because we've been so program, so let other people dictate to us what I was success I story I businesses should be that when someone has now give you this opportunity, a lot of times I say I'll give you permission to say exactly what you want it to be. And so a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with it should be this, it should be that. But I'm saying, no, you own it, you own you're amazing. You show up in your business exactly the way you want it. And so for me, it's still an ongoing journey. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what it's going to look like. Even for me. James Laws: It's such a powerful message, though. If you so many of us, right. We're caught up in this kind of there is this culture of what a successful business is supposed to look like. What is this, a sex successful leader or business or entrepreneur? Right. There's all these ideas and things that are thrust upon us from everyone else about what success looks like. But true fulfillment, right? True fulfillment comes when you have purpose, when you have passion, when you have when you get to make progress and something that matters to you as an individual. And it's not measured by anyone else. And until you can get that that seed inside of you that says this is what success looks like for me, you're always going to be measuring your fulfillment against everything else. So I love this message. I give you permission to say what you want to be, what you want your business to be. And I think that's a that's a profound message. I think people should hear. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: I have a story. I have a speech therapy practice. I have a brick and mortar, I have a business and office space. And this particular space I'm in now, I've been in there for about ten years now. And so when I first moved in, you know, you had to bring all the technicians and the telephone and the cable and all, you know, all those kind of things to get set up. And so I had already determined what I wanted my space to be, how I wanted my clients to feel when they came into my office. And so the technician came in to do the Internet, right? And so before he left, he said, Oh, do you want me to install a television and the reception area? I said, No, thank you. He said, Well, other offices. I've installed them in other offices. Would you like one? I said, No, thank you. I don't want to TV in here. And then he asked me again, I said, No, I don't want a television in here. I said, My primary clients are young children and I love to read and I want them to be avid readers. And so while they're waiting for their appointment, I want them to read a book, not watch TV. And so I was like, Oh, okay. And so you go into my office now there's a basket full of books, there's no TV. I've been in there ten years. I've never I'm never going to put a TV in there because at that point I understood this is my office, this is how I want mine to be. Yes, there are other offices that have TV great for them, but I knew I was giving myself permission to create a space that felt good for me and is exactly what I've done. James Laws: Yeah, I. I understand that kind of sentiment so strongly in my own business. You know, I run, I have a coffee shop that we have that's local coffee roasters. It's international award winning. It's awesome. And we have a tech business that builds software and does that. And there is this this idea of we have to move fast and we need to hire more engineers and we need to get more marketing out there. And all those things are true right now. None of those things are wrong. Right? But they did work. The thing I wanted to focus on, what I wanted to focus on was how do I take care of the team? Like, how do I make sure each team members role is perfect for them? And we still got a long way to go there. But how do I help them find fulfillment in their role, not engagement? I don't care. It's not about just making them more active because you can be more active and not fulfilled. I want people who are like fulfilled in their work and I say this on almost every episode when they get to their end of their day, I want them to be full and not depleted. And to me that is a good, a good benchmark of fulfillment. And it doesn't mean that work isn't hard sometimes work is work, right? You have to do it. But that idea fulfillment. And so I've made my focus on that for our team and it's interesting to see a lot of people look at me cross-eyed like, why are you focusing on that? You need to build, you need to do this for your product, you need to do that. I'm like, that stuff will happen if I take care of the team. All that other stuff will work itself out. I'm not worried about it. So I love that kind of going against the grain and finding out who you are as a business leaders, a business owner, what you want for your company and your organization, whether that be children, when they're waiting in the waiting room to read books, to thrive off of reading and not just be glued to another screen that's that's been made readily available to them, or a leader is decided, no, I'm going to pour in and invest into my team. And I'm not let all the business stuff work out because I took care of my team, not in spite of my team. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: So I love that. I love that, yes, we're on the same page with that. Even I have assistance to work in my office, so they have to have keys to the office. They come in when I'm not there, they know how to run the office. And someone said to me like, Wow, you trust them with the keys? And I was like, Well, they can't work for me if I don't trust them. James Laws: Yeah, right. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: I need to be able to trust them. You know, I don't understand that. So for me and so it's like I empowered my team. I want them to feel vested and a part and have some buy in to this thing. So when it's time to take on new clients, I asked them, What do you think? Who do you want to work with? Because I remember working in jobs that I was never asked, you know, my pay you. It was like, Here, do this, right? And so I decided that again when I have my company is that I want people to feel that they have a buy in, that they have a say. So because like with you, I want them to feel for feel. I want them to be happy because in the end I know if they're happy for feel, it's going to be a great place to work. They're going to want to show up. I have sometimes I have to tell them to go home. You know, it's like because they enjoy what they do. I enjoy what I do. And so but we have to make sure as leaders, we're creating a culture for that where people can feel good about who they are. Like I said, I had a I had a job, a head career, but I was'nt fulfilled because it wasn't tapping into what I felt like was uniquely my, my, my skill set, the impact I wanted to make. And so I decided to create that for myself. James Laws: And I really like what you said about how it's our responsibility as leaders to create and establish the culture and protect the culture. And you talk about, right, like these these people I couldn't these people couldn't work for me if I didn't trust them. Like, how can they possibly work for me if I didn't trust them? And so to those leaders listening to this and I think you would agree with this, I think you're demonstrating this and some of the things that you're talking about is that in order for our teams to trust us, the first thing we have to do are in order for us to trust them, we have to display trust back to them. We have to be trust for where are the leaders. That's really my focus on fulfillment, right, is that I want my team to know that if I say something, I'm going to do it and that if it's in their best interest, I am going to work and fight for it and then I'm never going to intentionally go after something that would harm their work life integration, that's going to harm their ability to live their best life while also doing their best work. I don't want I don't want to damage that. And so it's it's a two way street, like I have to be trustworthy. And if I am, if I'm doing that, you've already established a level of trust that lets you trust your team very easily. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: And in my space, when one of my assistants at this time, she's actually coming off a maternity lead a second time. Yeah, you know, so. But the first time, you know, I asked her, how much time do you need off? I'm not going to dictate to you what time do you meet with your family? And so I said to her, how much time do you want to take off? And so and also so, you know, a young mom, you know, young family. And I tell her, I said, any time you need to bring the little ones, bring them. You know, we work with children. You know, this is like kid friendly space, you know. And she was like, really? I was like, absolutely. I want you to know that you are supportive here, you know? And so there have been times she's brought her little kids, you know, to the office and because I told her, I don't want you to ever feel like you have to put your kids somewhere, you're worried about their safety. You don't have anyone that you trusted with your most prized possessions. I said bring them. It was always a situation where something fell through. You know, she had a babysitter lined up or something and she was like, I need to bring the kids. I was like, Absolutely brazen. It's okay. I don't want you to have to worry about what was happening with your children while you're here at work. And so, again, I think as leaders, we need to, you know, have environments where those who work for us and work with us feel that we really care about them, not just professionally, but also personally. James Laws: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that's crucial. One of the things that we always talk about with to our leaders is we pass on to them like during one on ones. It's not about the work, right? We were one on one time. That time is is a it's a time for you to really learn about your team member, empathize with the life that they're living in and their life that they're living in is probably different than the life you're living in and being aware of that. And that may be because of culture. That may be because of the world. Circumstances impact different people in different ways. There's so many reasons why the world around us impacts us all differently. And so being having that time, no one who wants to really say, hey, you know, you know, sadly, we've had another school shooting. How is that impacting you? Like we've have this war going on, you know, across the ocean. How are you feeling to some people that's impacting them in a greater way than it might be impacting you. And so being aware of that and having that time to say I care about you personally, I want to make sure that your mental health is taken care of personally. How can I help you with that? Is it extremely powerful way to demonstrate trust care that you're putting their fulfillment even above perhaps the organization and the goals and the KPIs and all of the stuff. So I love I love that center. I love the sentiment of asking like, Hey, how much time do you need? I don't know what you need. You know, I probably need something different than what you need, so I want to know. So I think that's really cool. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: Just a little funny about that. When the pandemic hit, we had to pivot. You know, we were seeing a lot of kids in the office, but a lot of parents were like, no, no, no, we'll bring them home all day. Like, No, no, no, no, we're coming. We come in. Please stay open. Right. And so but I also, as my assistant, I was like, you have small children at home, you know, coming into the office. You got to want to impact your health or your feel uncomfortable coming in, you know, with people. And so I said, you know, do you can do virtual we can just figure it out. She was like, No, no, no. I'll come in. She's like, I need a break. Breakthrough. She's like, For her going around, I was like, I need to get out of the house. James Laws: Everyone's looking at that like, this is an event. We're getting out of the house. Like, there's this. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: So yeah. So again, I want it to be very mindful of her, her own ability to come in and show up in a way that's going to serve her and her family. But she was like, No, I'll come in. I'll go. James Laws: I'll so I love to hear your heart and how you've treated your team and how you're developing your ideas from a leader perspective. I want to kind of refocus back on you just a little bit as as you know, to all of our leaders, a lot of times the good ones, I should say, the people first leaders end up spending a lot of time sacrificing their own fulfillment and the for the betterment of those around them. And they don't take enough time to kind of self analyze and looking like self-care and say, What do I need? I want to know, what are some of the practices that you've put in place over the years as you've been on this journey to own your amazing to yeah, find to take care of yourself and you know, find fulfillment internal lean in yourself. What are some of those practices that you perhaps do on your habits or rituals or whatever that you do? Dr. Denise Moore Revel: That's a great question. And it's something that is still an ongoing journey for me. I can say there are been times where I have really been good at taking care of myself and there are a lot of times where I just I just didn't I sacrifice myself for the company, for the clients to do to push, to go, to move, to grow, all those kind of things. But one of the things I learned and I had a what you call a life coach for many years. And so one of the things that we talked about was she was like, you have no recreation in your life. You have no fun. It's always work. It's always other people. She was like, When are you going to just have fun and just enjoy your life and enjoy the fruits of your labor? Right. You know, and so I just remember thinking like, wow, I'm not doing things doing the things that I enjoy doing, right? So after that point, I would make a deal with myself like every summer. I definitely would take a vacation, right? But I also would do like a summer activity or take up a summer hobby. So just today I was out earlier looking at some things I think I might do some painting this summer, you know, take up painting, but just learning how to just do things for fun, it does not have to do with my businesses. It has to do with me taking care of anyone else but just something fun for me. But again, it has definitely been a journey, but I have gotten better. But I'm also mindful of my weekly my daily rituals, but also my weekly rituals. You know, I have a morning routine now that I'm very consistent about it. I get up, I meditate, I pray, I get quiet, I get steel right. And then at night I make sure I shut things off and I may light a candle, what? Or I may journal. And so I'm very much more intentional about it now that things are growing and more busier is that I have to be more intentional about taking care of myself so that I can show up. But I will say probably last year was I got to a point, probably around this time where I was extreme, I was experiencing extreme burnout, you know, coming through the pandemic, still working with a lot of clients and my speech practice as well as taking on clients in my personal development of the speech, you know, the all your amazing where do parts of it develop and business coaching. I was doing all of that and there was no time. I did not take any time. And I got to a point where I never forget. I was at my office and I was having my intern to start taking on interns from local universities to train them. And the interim was going to start that Monday. And I just remember thinking like, Oh, I can get a break, you know, I just felt such a relief. Oh, wow. My mind can kind of calm down a minute so that I can just take care of me because, yes, I was going to be training her, but she was also going to be seeing some of the clients. So that was going to take a little load off of me for a few months. But I remember that day thinking like, you can never get to this point ever again where you are at the point of burnout, extreme burnout. And so that's been about a year ago. And so now it's like, Oh no, I take my time. Like I said, I'm going to take a painting, you know, this weekend. I'm going to be chilling out, but I'm very much more intentional about my self-care because I want to show up as a effective and good leader. I want to serve from a full capacity, and I realize I can't do that if I'm not taking care of myself. James Laws: No, I think important words to hear. And I think back in my own journey, a little over a decade ago, I was in a situation where I was pastoring a church, I was starting a business. I was just about to quit my job. I had had work, was working a full time job, pastoring a church and starting a business. So these three things going on, juggling all of it at the same time, I had found out that my wife was pregnant and we had a new a new child on the way. We had just bought a house and I was quitting my job. All these things were happening like all at the same time. And for many of us who are business leaders, who are high achievers, who are people who put we have a hard time, right, of spending time doing the thing that's not our business. And I was one of those I was probably chief among those who would say, well, my my job is my hobby, like building business and doing the stuff and leading. Like, that's fun for me and it is fun for me, but it didn't mean I don't need other things in my life to de-stress and to decompress. And so what ended up happening is when all that was happening, I was at my my job at the time, I only had a little more time there. And I started to get lightheaded and my heart rate jumped up to like 170 and was just and I'm just sitting in a cubicle like I was a web administrator at the time. And I'm and I felt really off. I felt really bad. So they took me to the hospital and my heart rate kept climbing and climbing. I was I went into a state of atrial fibrillation where my heart rate is all irregular and it's going really fast. It put me in the ICU for three days while they were trying to get my heart to go back into a sinus rhythm and get my heart rate down. And what I realized about me as a leader and me as an entrepreneur, and how I deal with burnout or how I deal with stress is emotionally and mentally. I'm not aware of it for some reason. I'm not always aware of it. But my body was aware of it and my body was protesting all this life change and not slowing down and not taking time to relax and breathe and be in that moment. So it's so important for leaders and entrepreneurs to in their in their in their finding, you know, into in their, you know, owning their amazing they also have to own their rest and their calm and their quiet and their fun activities and stuff to help them. And so for me, I'm with you. I love routines. I build routines into my day because I find them to be comforting. I will go for a walk for about an hour every single day because it's just it helps me kind of walk away from everything and say, let it go. And so really profound words for people to hear. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: Oh, that's awesome. Thank you for sharing a story like, wow. Yeah, our bodies, our minds, you know, things will give off warning signs that it's time to stop. It's time to slow down. Mine is that I'm very I was very in tune with I'm very in tune with me. You know, my mental capacity, my mental health. James Laws: I wish I were. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: Yeah. And I just think because I've had family members who really struggle with mental illness and so it was I couldn't help but to be like, okay, but even being aware of it, I still knew there was times I didn't take good care of mine. Yeah. So it's like I tell myself, well, you know what can happen? You can it be, it can become chronic. And so now I just try to do preventive care, like, okay, what do you need to do? How do you need to slow down just to make sure that you are again a capacity in order to handle the things I need to handle? So yeah, it's still a journey, but I've gotten much, much better. James Laws: I'd like to think if you ask my team, I have also gotten much better because I am, if you ask me, I don't know, I'm always I'm a little unsure, but I'm always working at it. For those listening, there's there's, there's, you know, business leaders, entrepreneurs who are like, oh, I've I felt myself on the verge of that. Maybe what I need is some coaching. Maybe I just need somebody in my corner to kind of to see the things that I don't see because I'm just too close to it. It's not because they they can't see it. They probably could see it fine. And someone else. But sometimes in ourselves, we're just too close to the situation and we can't feel. What is the coaching experience like? If somebody was to be working with you and everyone I know there's we've had a lot of coaches on this show and every coach is different. So what tell me about that coaching relationship and what that feels like. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: Absolutely. But one of the things I would like to say about coaching is that coaching is, like you say, it's to help you to see your blind spots. Right. I think about all the great athletes, the Michael Jordan's, you know, Serena Williams, you name it. They all have coaches. It's not because they're they're trying to make them great. It's just they're there to see the blind spots. Because when you're on the court, you're playing the game alive. You you'll see somebody coming behind you. You're right side, your back side or whatever. You don't see that your forehand is not, you know, following through, but your coach is there to see that. And so I've always had a coach, you know, when I even when I started my business, I had a business coach because there was one thing I was like, Oh, I need to do this. He was like, No, you don't need to do that. You need to pay attention to this. I was like, Oh, okay. And then over the years I've had life coaches because I believe again, they can see my blind spots because I'm in my life, I'm living it on a daily. I don't see all the different things. And so, so when I do coaching, I do business coaching, but I also do I call it personal development coaching. But I help the person is figure out like, well, who are you for you. I help them to define who they are. And that's the first question that I start with all of my clients. Who are you for? You. I don't want you to tell me who are you for your parents, for your spouse, for society. Who are you saying that you are? So I have this talk. I do a call. The Power of identity. I don't think we talk enough about, well, who are you? For you. How are you identifying you? Because I always say the most important relationship you're going to ever have is the ones you want to have with yourself. How are you dealing with you? What do you think about you? It's not important. I was such a people pleaser. I was so wrapped into like, what is this person saying? What is it? And I never stop to say, Well, what do I think about me? Or How do I define success for me? Or What do I want my work life balance to be? And so it's personal development. It's like I help people to see themselves a lot of times for the first time or in a long time. And so that's how it's all about, you know, what do you want? What do you so what do you think about that? It's not it's not important. What I think about is like, what do you think about it? Because you're living your life. You're showing are you showing up for you or not? And so we know those answers, but sometimes it just takes someone to kind of prod or be like, hey, what do you think about this? Or Have you thought about this? Like, what are you thinking about your life? And we don't take enough time to do that because I believe we've been programed to get all these mixed messages from outside of us to say, Who am I? Am I good enough? I'm smart enough, am I enough? And we never stop to say, Well, I think I'm pretty good. I think I'm pretty amazing now if anybody else thinks that. Okay, but what do I think about me? What do I think about my life? Am I showing up the way I want to show up in the world? Am I making decisions about my life according to what I want to do? Real quickly, I think I got my first taste of it when I was about 17, 18 years old. It's time for me to decide where I wanted to go to college. And there's one school that everybody assumed I was going to attend because family members had gone there. And at one point I said I wanted to go there, but by the time I got to my senior year, I didn't want to go to that school anymore. Then I had my I had other interests, right? And so it was time to apply for colleges and I applied for different colleges. And so months went on and my dad was like, Have you gotten your acceptance letter to this particular school? And I was like, No. And so muslin all. But I showed the acceptance letters to the other school. A few months later, he said, Did you get an acceptance letter from the school? I was like, No. It was like, okay. And so we went on and he said, Have you got your acceptance letter to that particular school? I said, No. He said, I've heard other kids have gotten their letters. Why have you gotten yours? And I was like, I don't know. So finally I said, Dad, we need to have a conversation. I said, The reason why I didn't get the letter is because never applied to that school. It was like, What? James Laws: And then you ran away right? Dr. Denise Moore Revel: To say that he was upset with me would be an understatement. But yes, he was very upset with me, but I was too afraid to tell him. And my teachers and my guidance counselor, family members said I didn't want to go to that school. But finally I had to say, I said, well, this is my life. This is where I'm going to spend the next four years. Shouldn't I have a say as to where I want to go now, what I want to do? And so after a long conversation, he was like, You're right, it is your life. It is. It should be your decision. So let's talk about it. And so that was really the first time I really understood the power of making decisions for my life, not based on what everyone else wanted from me, but what did I want for myself. I told my dad, I just don't think that's a good fit for me. Yes, it's a great school. Yes. My my family members went there. But it's not for me. It's not for me. And we have to give ourselves permission to say this is a good fit for me or this is not a good fit for me. But I tell people it takes courage to be who you are. James Laws: It does. And It's a process, right? Like when we're young, you know, we're still discovering who we are. We're still trying to figure that stuff out. And and there is a lot of information coming at us trying to tell us, well, you should be this or you should be that. And, you know, my son's eight and he wants to work for Nintendo and move to Japan and work for Nintendo. I'm like, cool. Like, you know, you can do that if you want to. Like, let's talk about how you get there, but you do what you want to do. And so it's a journey. I love something you said earlier, too, in this in this whole kind of conversation with this, I come back to this idea of like and we hear it all the time. You can't really love someone until you learn to love yourself. And as a leader, you can't lead people to a place you haven't gone yourself. So if you want to instill fulfillment in your company and in your organization, you got to start with you. You have to figure out how do you find fulfillment and how do you live it out? If you want your team to take good, healthy vacations, you got to take good, healthy vacations and demonstrate that you've got to go there yourself. I was terrible at work life balance and I don't even like work life balance. I call it work life integration. I was terrible at it. I spent a lot of time at work. I spent a lot of time in the office and so all I did was demonstrate to my team is that that's how I think work should be And it wasn't until we went distributed and I started working from home and making my own schedule and realizing I could still get all the stuff I wanted to get done and actually more in this new way that I found what work life integration really was for me. And now I can lead other people in that direction. But before I wasn't leading anyone anywhere. And so as a leader, if you remember right, we want to lead people and to own your amazing well and to own your own amazing first and then you can lead other people to do that. You want people to have work life balance. You have to lead them first. And so lead your way through that as well. So really profound words and journey. And I think an important part about coaching too, is that coaching isn't about somebody who knows more than you. It's not somebody who's necessarily than you. It's not somebody who has all the answers. It's somebody who can see things from an angle that you are not capable at seeing things. And that moment and they're just going to point things out and it's still going to be up to you to decide, am I going to do am I going to take that information and that experience that they're seeing that I can't see? And am I going to implement that into my decision making process? So great stuff. Dr. Denise, I want to give you the last word. If there was something I didn't ask you that I should have, if there's something you'd like to share or if you just want to let people know where they can get in touch with you. If they want to learn about more about your movement and your cause and get in touch with you, let us know how they can do that. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: Absolutely. Just one thing you said a moment ago about leadership. I just did a talk a few weeks ago called Leadership. It's the inside job leadership. Leadership starts from with from within, we think is all about outside of us. But leadership is an inside job. So once we start leading ourselves, like you said, being that example, being that demonstration of what taken out healthy, we want our team members to be healthy and whole that we have to be a demonstration of that too and to lead the way with that. So I just wanted to say that. But leadership is an inside job. It's not outside of us, is inside of us. And so I'm I'm working on my journey of being a better leader by showing up and being a demonstration of what I want my team members and my company, those who work for me and with me partner with me to be about. So you can find me at ownyouramazingnow.com again ownyouramazingnow.com was the first place I recommend people to start and just to learn more about who I am the movement and come and be a part of it. You know, I work with a lot of leaders, you know, and so but we always talk about how can we do it better, how can we be better? But I always tell them, it starts with you. James Laws: That's great that. Denise, thank you so much for being on the show. We're going to make sure that we put links to everything in our show notes when we release the episode and we'll be sharing out some short clips. And this will also be on you is also on YouTube. So this thank you so much for being on the show and I look forward to watching all the stuff that you're going to be about. Dr. Denise Moore Revel: Oh, well, thank you so much for having me. I so enjoyed it. James Laws: Thank you so much. I want to thank Dr.Denise for taking the time to be on the show and join me as we talk through the idea of owning your amazing everything that we mentioned, including a full transcript of the show is available over on our website, and you can access it literally any time you want by visiting leadingtofulfillment.com/025. Also on that website you can subscribe to our newsletter there. We'll let you know when every new episode drops as well as send you original and curated content and leadership managing teams and you guessed it, finding fulfillment. You've probably read quite a few headlines about famed and acclaimed talents getting their big breaks. That pivotal moment where everything changed for musicians, actors, tech moguls and beyond it makes some pretty inspiring stories. But it's also misleading. The truth is, getting your big break is ultimately a myth. While some successful people experience a breakthrough and nearly always comes after years of putting in the work as you embark on your career, one of the most dangerous things that you can do is wait for your big break. I mean, there's nothing wrong with aspiring to be great and accomplish great things or to own you're amazing. But aspirations mean very little without action backing them up. Even in Dr. Denise's story, she had an epiphany, a breakthrough at an event. But it took a lot of hard work for that vision to become reality. The danger in believing that your big break is just kind of around the corner is the temptation to sit and wait for it. Trust me when I say that no one is going to reach out and just hand you a career. As nice as that may sound, the greatest achievements are never free. The cost putting in the work. Lots and lots of work. But I have good news too. If you do it right, the work itself is the most fulfilling part. Thanks for listening and I hope you'll join me on the next episode. But until then, your businesses be successful as you lead your teams to fulfillment.

In this episode we discuss… What is a courageous work culture?Leading through uncertain times and the great whyNavigating the transition from co-located to remote work cultureThe challenges of an always-on culture and the changing landscape of technology About Our Guest Jonscott Turco is an established change-maker for global businesses, organizations, and their leaders. He has spent the last 25+ years empowering clients to anticipate and adapt to marketplace opportunities and disruptions so they can move confidently with agility to succeed today and in the future. Jonscott earned his undergraduate degree in International Business and Marketing and was the valedictory recipient of a Master's degree in Psychology, both from Manhattan College in New York City. For more than 20 years, he has been serving as an undergraduate and graduate school adjunct Professor, instructing students on subjects including International Business, Leading Organizations Across Cultural & Global Boundaries, and Consumer Psychology. Resources Mentioned on the Show https://huminx.com/linkedin.com/in/jonscottturco The Transcript Jonscott Turco: I do think that we have an opportunity to really engage teams in a meaningful way, to understand that they have uniqueness that is going to make one approach to leadership impossible. It's always been impossible, but I think people will say like, that's how we do things here at IBM, that's how we do things here or whatever. Okay. You know, and I think the people who didn't subscribe to that were the outliers, where I think that the majority of people now have their own unique approach, how they want to get things done. And the companies that are going to be successful now and in the future are going to adapt and listen to their teams and to really give them a psychological safety, to say, you know what, I think I really I need this. You're going back to the dating conversation, right? This is what I need to work, because the leaders and organizations are going to thrive and grow and really shape their future are going to be those organizations that are going to meet the top people where they are. Give them things to get done, engage them meaningfully and respect the fact that they're individuals and human beings who have a full life. James Laws: Welcome to another episode of the Leading to Fulfillment podcast, where everything we talk about is meant to encourage people first. Leaders empower individuals to achieve fulfillment and to help you and organizations become places people love to work. I'm your host, James Laws, and I have a great show in store for you. My guest for this episode is Jonscott Turco. Jonscott is an established changemaker for global businesses, organizations and their leaders. He spent the last 25 plus years empowering clients to anticipate and adapt to marketplace opportunities and disruptions so they can move confidently with the ability to succeed today and in the future. Jonscott earned his undergraduate degree in international business and marketing and was the valedictory recipient of a master's degree in psychology, both from Manhattan College in New York City. For more than 20 years, he has been serving as an undergraduate and graduate school adjunct professor, instructing students on the subjects of including subjects like international business. Leading organizations across cultural and global boundaries and consumer psychology. And my conversation with Jonscott. We discuss what is a courageous work culture leading through uncertain times and the great why navigating the transition from co-located to remote work culture and the challenges of an always on culture and the changing landscape of technology. But first, I want to invite you to subscribe and leave a review for the Leading to Fulfillment podcast in your favorite podcast tool. As always, we're on Google, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and you can watch us over on YouTube. Now let's jump into my conversation with Jonscott Turco. Jonscott, thank you so much for joining me on the Leading The Fulfillment podcast today. Jonscott Turco: Great to be here, James. Thank you very much. James Laws: To get started, I just wanted everyone to kind of get a feel for who you are, what you're about, what you're doing right now, what you're most excited about. So could you just take a moment and kind of introduce yourself to our listeners? Jonscott Turco: Sure. My name is Jonscott Turco. I'm an organizational psychologist, been working in management, consulting and leadership for a very long time, nearly 30 years. And I work primarily with leaders and organizations around the world on creating courageous cultures that drive innovation, promote real employee engagement and development, and grow bottom line success. So that's the bottom line of what I do. In a macro sense what I do day to day is really try to get involved with organizations that know that there's a better way to do things. And with the pandemic now, hopefully I've been saying this for over a year, hopefully coming to an end and its influence on our day to day real time, there's an opportunity for organizations to really innovate and to really embrace that learning curve, which we all kind of ran into like a brick wall when we started. So it's fascinating to me to see organizations that are really being agile and listening to their employees and really helping create these cultures together and organizations that are very much, you know, this is how we do it. We need everybody back in the office. And not surprisingly, those organizations are having a lot more challenges because employees have options. James Laws: Absolutely. We were having a little bit of conversation before we started recording. Right. We're talking about like our culture is changing. Right. Like, whether we like it or not, the the tides are shifting in the way that the kind of the status quo and the way of doing business. Even a couple of years ago isn't true today, and it most certainly will not be true moving into the future. You talk about this idea of creating a courageous culture, a courageous work culture. I'd love to hear what how do you what does that mean to you? How do you define a courageous work culture? Jonscott Turco: It's a great question, James. You know, it's interesting. It's different for every organization. And within an organization, it's different for each leader and team. So it makes my job really interesting. What I mean by it, simply put, is are you looking at ways to do things in ways that you do things in a way that's not afraid of failing, that's not afraid of learning from each other and embrace the opportunity to try things that are new. You know, looking at how we do things at Human X, which is my company, you know, looking at behavior, looking at experiences, looking at people's unique gifts and putting it into this middle point of courage to say, okay, well, how can we take all of this, synthesize it and do better going forward? So it's a very fascinating piece of information to take from individuals and leaders, because oftentimes courage is not something that is rewarded in organization. It's, you know, there's a moving risk appetite, as it's put oftentimes with failure and with innovation. I think they come hand-in-hand. And I think most organizations that embrace that continuum of trying to say, look, we have to innovate, there's going to be some opportunities to learn our frameless failures, opportunities to learn correct and go forward. And similarly, as as you've said on your episodes previously, you know, there's no inherent right organizations to have employees. You know, this is a choice. So I often tell many of my students over the years and colleagues know, well, how's the interview going? And, you know, how's the opportunity going? Well, you know, like they are looking for me to do this or they're looking for me to do this. And I said, Well, what about you? How are you into this? Is it something you want to do? And it seemingly surprises people when I ask this, and I often put it in the frame of dating, I said, You just say just everybody who's offering it's for this thing. So you know what's in it. You know, how does this I think it's interesting. There's a sense of altruism that I think is misplaced. And what I mean by that, to be specific, is, you know, it's okay as an employee to think, what's in this for me? You know, it's not the only thing you should think of. But similarly, organizations need to look at how are they engaging their employees? I say this oftentimes, and it's been quoted recently from some friends of mine and clients that you can't demand compliance and call it engagement. And it's like, you know, we need everybody to do this. You know, everyone's here good. We have a great employee engagement. Everyone's showing up on Wednesday. Well, okay, well, they were going to be fired if they didn't show up. So you can't demand something and say, well, no, our employees are very engaged. So and it's very interesting what you said, because courage is really something that is evolving for organizations and for leaders, and it goes hand in hand with culture. As we discussed you and I previous to this reporting, you know, how do you how do you define the culture of your organization and I work with clients and leaders all the time, and they refer to their culture as a static point. And the static reality many times pre-COVID. And as you say, we are in the midst of changes, frankly, a year ago from right right now, in 2021 April, I had a lot of the same conversations and the world has continued to change and evolve and morph into different things. So your ability to be agile as a leader, your ability to you know, people often ask me, James, like, what's the most important thing I've heard over the course of my fairly long career thus far to show that someone is going to be a good leader? What can I tell? And I really struggle with it. When I said I answered this and I'll stand by it. The willingness for a leader to say, I don't know. I think it's super powerful. And in this time, it's it's one of the easiest times, I think, for leaders to embrace this because no one's got a blueprint for this. Yeah. Last year. This year. Next year, this is all new. So there's little that's as empowering for organizations and for leaders. And to hear their boss say, you know, I'm not sure like what do you think? What is your experience? How of this person? What does this person? And, you know, I think in the past it may have been seen as inaccurately seen as a sign of weakness to ask for opinion and for feedback and interesting perspectives. I think it's quite the opposite. I think it shows a tremendous amount of trust in your team's. It shows a tremendous amount of confidence in the fact that you can synthesize this information and make decisions. And the more people you know, the more you listen to your people, obviously, the more they're going to feel engaged and heard to see, you know, sounds so remedial to say this. But it is it is still an elusive reality for many organizations and leaders. James Laws: It's so much good stuff and everything that you just said. Some things that I was thinking about as you were talking was, you know, this idea true to. Right, like the courting relationship of of someone seeking work and someone looking to fill a role or a position within their company that I one of the things I'm constantly coaching people is don't you know, when I was growing up to get a job, this is the way you did it. You got as many resumes or as many applications as you could and you filled out as many as you could. And then you followed up as often as you could until you just basically beat somebody down into hiring you. That was that was the approach. When I was younger. But that the shotgun approach is gone right now. What you get at a time, what you have to do, it's what you get to do. You get to say what kind of organization do I want to work for? What are the values that that organization has? What is the mission and the purpose of that organization? You had to learn about that. You pick 4 to 5 organizations that you feel passionate on. You learn about their culture, and then you help them see you on their team. And it becomes this kind of give and take of, Hey, you know, I always say this. My company, my company culture in a way, is a product that I am developing for my team. It is the selling proposition that makes them want to buy in to this organization and give of their time and invest it into what we're doing. And if I don't spend the time on my product, if I don't spend the time being flexible and adaptable to the things that are happening in the world around and nobody's going to buy my product, no team member. Jonscott Turco: So, yeah, that's a critical I mean, you brought up so many great points there. You know, I was working once with the bank internationally and their top 300 or so leaders. I had them for three days and I was walking through the streets of the city. We're in somewhere in Europe and I honestly forget where and there was. They need to get cash and their bank was right there. And I said, we'll just stop over here. And it's I don't think they're like, you don't bank at your bank. And this is a C, this is an N minus one. This is a senior, senior person, if not even higher, actually. And I was shocked and they said, you seem surprised. I'm like, well, yeah, like it's your bank. Like, you know, I found it fascinating. And I said, if you're if you're a suspect or if you're voicing your dissatisfaction with something in a way that your team is going to see, that you're not banking at your bank. Oh, yeah. I find that interesting cultural reality that you're creating for yourself. And as you said, your culture is is a living, breathing, evolving reality. I think many leaders today, literally today and April of 22 were speaking. They refer to their culture in the present tense. And they're really referring to things from years ago. And I said, I need you to stop referring to this as a static reality. Your culture is being developed right now. Your decisions, behaviors, actions are all informing your culture right now, who you're keeping, who you're losing through your team. You know, and I said, this is someone just before our call today. I said, you know, you are going to drive everybody with the option to leave, to leave. So I said, if you look at their simple pereda role, you know, you're getting 80% of your results from 20% of your top performers. You lose two or 3% of those top performers. What's the consequential impact to your business? It's dramatic. So I think the tough thing for most leaders is they were following, whether it be a literal or otherwise de facto blueprint like this is how leaders behave. There is no blueprint now. There's no note. There's a manual that someone's going to say, you know, how do you handle a pandemic where we're not in the office together for a year or two years? And, you know, we I reframe this in my one of my LinkedIn posts, the great resignation I hear. I reframed it into the great why more and more people are asking, well, why we need you in the office X, Y, Z, or Y? I have many clients, many clients who previous to the pandemic were dealing with employees who wanted to work from home one or two days a month. And I can remember a C-suite executive saying to me in person, there's no way they can do their job at home. It's not possible. They cannot do their jobs at home. Guess what? Everyone does their job at home in this particular case, better and more efficiently than they did in the office. And now we've evolved to this point where most are going back to some type of office environment and the people who had more time with their families spent less time and money commuting, had other ways of paying attention to their flow in terms of their life, health, kids, work, home, whatever other interests they have. And they're really genuinely saying, okay, well, why, if you're telling me that everything has been at least good, if not better, please explain to me why I need to be in the office full time every day. And I have some CEOs that have said, okay, well, we'll make a concession. We'll get people to work from home one day a month. I literally left the place. Are you kidding me? So it's fascinating to me because I have leaders who were very anti work at home saying, well, my team is doing great. We talk online, we meet in person. You know, we're getting this good flow. Mandating people in the office is something that I think is going to drive a lot of employees to find other opportunities. You know, it's interesting. I have a lot of teams say, well, you know, we have this office, we just renovated this office. I said, with all due respect to it, your fixed CapEx is of no concern to your employees. You know, honestly, I said I don't really care. You know, I'm in New York City at the moment. I work in a few different major cities around the world and the offices. The situation is the same everywhere, which is we invested all this money in the space and we invest all this money in this space. And then I forget which is if it's Deloitte or Pricewaterhouse that is fully remote globally now. And I said, think about this. If one of the biggest accounting firms in the world has gone fully remote, don't you think they crunched those numbers? Right. I would I would venture a guess that they you know, they've done the homework from a fixed CapEx perspective and other perspectives and say, okay, listen, we need you to get your job done. Are there cultural advantages of being in the same office? Sure. Are there cultural disadvantages for people being in the office all the time? Absolutely. But for me personally, when I look around and I see my friends and colleagues and frankly, my children were recent college grads saying, you know, they want us to come into the office like I'm getting so much more dynamic. I'm out my desk, you know, doing work. If I take a break, I'll go to the gym at lunch. I'm back. I'm you know, I work more hours at home and I have much more of a balance in my life. So please explain to me, as I said, it's not a great resignation in my terms. It's the great why. Please explain why. James Laws: I think you're absolutely I think you're absolutely right. When I you know story for my as you talked about to like cultures and creating an atmosphere where people are not afraid to fail. Right. Because if people aren't failing them, they're not taking hard risks, which means you're not pushing your organization forward anyway. So it might as well allow failures, allow people to try new things and courageous things. Well, right at the beginning of all of this, in 2019, my company was fully co-located in office. I started it because that's what I knew. I had grown up in this kind of culture, of an office culture. And so when I started this business, I created an office and I loved it from a cultural standpoint. There was some culture benefits right there. So there's something about your connection of being face to face with people and getting around the water cooler, getting around the boardroom table and solving a problem face to face in the moment. Yeah, there's some really cool things about that. But in 2019 we acquired a business and their team was all over the world and so I couldn't very well expect them to move to Cleveland, Tennessee. And so we decided, well, then perhaps we need to consider them out. And the reason I resisted it is honestly with fear. I was afraid I didn't have the capability of leading a remote team I wasn't certain about and wasn't confident in my ability. I knew I could do an in office team because I knew that culture, sure, but I wasn't sure about a remote culture. So in 2019, right before this pandemic and everything and everyone was forced to go remote, we made the conscious decision to go remote and it was there was some painful parts of that. But what I determined is something you just talked about. I determined I didn't like being in the office. I thought I loved being in the office because that was what I the only thing I known. I never really tasted remote work before. But now all of a sudden, I'm I'm able to work out when I am best and have the most energy to work out. I'm able to spend time with my family when I'm able when it's best, and I'm actually able to work when I'm best at my work, which was usually before I'd even get into the office. It's early morning is when I'm most creative. I'm the sharpest and so I'm able to actually do my best work and honestly work less because I can get more done when. Jonscott Turco: Absolutely. And I couldn't agree more with that statement. I think and I think the proof is already unfolding for certain organizations and leaders. You know, I've had many friends and colleagues and frankly, the C-suite also saying to me, kind of on the down low, like, look, listen, if something opens up like, oh, sure, where I live, like I'm happy that they're going to, you know, so, okay. So I'm dealing with them, their teams, they're like ready to add to their understanding. But there is again, I think it's fear based to your point. I think it's just like, wait, this is the this is the manual. We always do this. This is how we do things. I don't know. Now you're telling me people can work whenever they want, whenever they're making sense to work. Now, again, as I mentioned previous to our recording, you know, I work across at the moment like eight time zones. So, you know, my work is done when it needs to get done. My calls happen when they need to happen. So, you know, if I have a friend, call me at, you know, eight, 9:00 at night and I'm on do not disturb. They know because I'm sleeping, because I have calls starting at midnight with Dubai or Hong Kong, wherever. So I think to me, like I've embraced this, which may be a little more natural for me, frankly, because of my work across time zones and with leaders in different areas of the world. So based on where I am in the world is quite fascinating because if I'm teaching a course that's based in New York, it takes place at 5 p.m.. I know if I'm in Dubai, it's going to be a late night for me. Similarly, you know, when clients ask me if I can join a call, pretty much unless I have something booked at that time, it doesn't matter what time it is, where I am locally, right? So those are choices I made to run my business, you know, nine years ago or so when I began my business. James Laws: I like that too. And I just for people listening, right? That's not the only way. Like one way is just to simply embrace that you you work on a 24 hour clock and you may have meetings at any of those hours. And you you fit in your sleep, your schedule, in your personal time, you integrate that. And that is a way and the other way is kind of the way I kind of do it too, is we've just got so asynchronous that it's like, Don't I work when I work, I have meetings. When I have meetings and there is a crossover. Then we do it in texts like we have conversations and we dialog and if we can find overlap or find overlap, we have very few face to face meetings. Honestly, most of our communication is written communication. We solve most of our problems that way. So there are multiple ways of approaching this. You don't have to. It's not one size fits all. And I think that's I think the struggle that many corporations have had, many businesses have had leading up to it. As you say, the great why is is they haven't realized like there's many ways to solve this problem. And I love I love this idea of why I just talked about in a previous episode that the kind of the five framework. Right. It's like, well, we need to get everyone back in the office. Well, well, why? Well, because they're they are we think they'll be more productive. Why? Well, because I can see them in their seat working. What is why? Like you keep asking that. And so you get down to the smallest portion and you realize, oh, we just have bad logic, like our reasoning. Jonscott Turco: Exactly. Yes. And that's exactly it. Right. I think and I don't fault people for that logic because it's all we've ever known. Right. So and I think that perhaps you and I had a little bit of a head start with this because of our business realities. But for someone who's been a more traditional, like, I commute to the city, I do this for, you know, here, and I leave my desk and then I can say, oh yeah, I've seen James Samson's in the office. So he was busy all day today. Now, you could have been like shopping on eBay, I don't know. But whatever, if you're your computer that I presume you're busy. Right? So I find the whole thing quite fascinating, you know, and every day I learn something new. And it's frankly part of what's hardwired into me. You know, I'm a I love to learn, so I'm always asking the questions why? And contrary to this present reality, I always like to try to practice more and more just being quiet and listening. There's invaluable information that comes from and I think leaders often has this have this reflex to say, you know, I'm the leader. I have to take control of every meeting and it's just, listen, you're going to learn far more if you just sit back and invite your team to contribute the things that they know and have them have psychological safety. You know, this is a huge issue. You know, I worked with a team a couple of years back and the leader, the CEO, has fired six people in the past six months who brought him ideas that he didn't like. And he said in the meeting, I need ideas that you're my top 200 people and and I'm looking around go. And I guess he realized what he's saying. So I had I had Mike at the time I clicked it on. And, you know, one of the benefits of being a consultant, I can say things like this and I said, I'm going to go ahead and have to call B.S. on that statement so everyone will like. So he looked at me, he goes, You're the only person who can speak to me like this. And I said, Let me ask you, what happened to the last six people of ideas you didn't like? And he stopped a second, he got a little red, and afterwards he came over. He goes, I can't believe I'm paying you to kick my ass and I'm trying to have you be real with your team. This is a real opportunity for a real conversation, you know. So if you want people bring your ideas, they have to have the safety, psychological safety to say, if he doesn't like it, I'm not going to have a negative consequence. I'm just trying to be innovative and take all the symptoms. There's educated guesses, there's bad ideas to that, you know, that display a lack of understanding. I'm not saying those need to be embraced. However, we're in a point now where there's so many new data points coming out. You know, I had my first meeting in the metaverse coming up next week. You know, there's layer upon layer of like web3. Oh, metaverse like virtual work, remote work, leadership shifts. You know how it leading in the in the digital age of virtual work, hybrid work, the metaverse is we're going to require totally different skills, totally different skills. So how do you encourage your teams? How do you provide feedback if they're not going to say, hey, James, let me, you know, come into my office for a second, I literally can do that. We can have a sidebar, we can have a conversation. You know, I think that there's leaders are showing themselves very quickly to either be adapting or really being hard line. And I do think that the leaders that are really steadfast, I mean, everyone back in the office, they're going to attract a certain kind of employee that I think may not be the employees that they need to succeed going forward. You say this in your pockets. I've heard in different episodes where, you know, it's not about just thriving or growing. It's it's literally about surviving at the most elemental point. You know, this is how you've done business, okay? Your teams, your leaders, your clients, your suppliers, your supply, all the different factors. Everyone is working differently everywhere. You know, I'm not sure if you've been the market for a car, but, you know, the car business is hysterical. It's insane, right. You know, and I mean, everywhere from the dealerships and the chips that aren't, they're controlling parts of the car that ideally they should be all the way to Stuttgart. You know, I have clients in the automotive industry in Stuttgart, in Germany, and they just laid off a bunch of people and their business is shifting dramatically as well. So now granted, you know, I just mentioned to you that, you know, family member in the hospital, certain jobs you can't do remotely physically be there doing it. And most of the jobs that I've worked with, you can know. So it begs the question. Right? It begs the question like, what's the culture that you are trying to create? Because people refer to cultures in the in the present tense and they're really referring to pre-COVID culture. It is oftentimes unrecognizable from the cultures that we have presently and that we're going to have going forward. So the opportunity and I really do see it this way and I, I see this with some trepidation, you know, the gifts because there are some gifts of this time, in addition to all the tragedy, the gifts of this are really I think we've accelerated our curve by ten years easily in terms of new ways of working, new ways of innovating, new ways of leading hybrid work. You know, we were promised this was going to free us up when it came out. All it's done has made us be at work all the time, you know, so I saw a graphic recently which said, you know, work in the office. It was like commute, lunch meetings, work, and then it was all broken down, you know, and then work from home. It was just one car. Does that work? James Laws: So yeah, I, I was talking to one of my business partners. We were making kind of a joke of what it was like kind of moving into Slack for communication, right? So a lot of people use Slack for remote teams for communication. It's a, it's a it's a decent tool for that. But what we found out was what did end up happening is we lost the ability to leave the office and go home because our our office was in our hands all the time. It's like slack is great because now I can be in the office even when I'm at my kid's baseball game. Well, that's not that's not the culture. It's not we're trying to create. Yeah. And I love what you said about psychological safety. You hear it a lot. A lot of people talk about it and they're like, I just how do I create an organization that is psychologically safe? And first rule of thumb is how do you respond to your team? You pointed it out right here in this conference room and you say you're waiting for good ideas, but you just fired the last six people. Who gave you ideas? Were you created psychological, unsafe, 50? Like you have created an environment that is not safe when people fail. How do you respond to that? Do you respond with, oh, my God, why did you make that decision? Are you or do you calm them down and say, hey, hey, mistakes get made. It's not a big deal. This isn't going to ruin us. Don't worry about it. Let's talk about it. Why did we make the decisions that we made? What were some of the warning signs? Let's talk through it. Use these opportunities to coach and teach and show them that failure is absolutely not just possible. It's actually always we always say that this is kind of a stain statement in our company. Failure is always an option. Jonscott Turco: Yeah, it's. James Laws: Always an option. Battle. Jonscott Turco: I have a friend of mine from years ago who had a company called the Failure Club and they promoted like contests that in the only way they accepted the proposal, if there was a very high probability of failure. So I found it fascinating. I think, you know, kind of informs some of my perspective in the sense that, you know, if you're always looking to stay, you know, it's funny you mentioned a few different things that reminded me. My first job, Postgraduate School, was back in time, pre email and pre cell phones and I would call the office every two weeks to check in on my interview status. I would write a physical letter and mail it in the mail on the alternating weeks. And I did this for months and they called me five or six months later into the process and they said, We created a job for you. It's like amazing because we figured out you would not stop bothering us until we hired you. And I said, Pretty fair assessment. Yeah. So it worked. So I always tell my students there's a fine line between persistent and annoying, and you're going to have to be on either side of that line, you know, kind of testing your waters. I think it's also been fascinating to see how decisions are made when it comes to these, you know, these persistence versus annoying. Right. It's a very, very fast thing in this digital world where we have hybrid work. And now I'm I'm calling I'm hitting you on Slack. And then if you don't answer, am I calling you? And then I have a CFO client of mine in Europe who said, you know, he called me one day and he said, I can't get I can't get James on the phone. I know this is why I need people in the office. And I said, Well, what did you call him? And he said, Well, I called him Sunday. I said, okay. I said, What time? He goes, What? What, what difference does that make? I know he's home. I said, What time is your call? I'm sure he goes about 10:00 at night. And I was like, I'm. I was like, as he said it, I think he realized how absurd it was. And I said, I'm not saying you don't have thoughts and things and information, but I also realize that some of my clients and previous to my business when I was working for someone, the CEO of my company would send the emails at 11 or 12 at night whenever she got home and was like, you know, kind of her clear. It was a good time for her to work. My being a good employee at that moment initially had me responding to them at, you know, 11, 12:00 until I realized that in their mind that was creating a dialog. Now, now we were now we were in it. 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, 2:00. Yeah. Holy man. It was like. So I realized that I had to just see the emails, write my response, and set it to auto, send it eight or nine in the morning because I couldn't initiate a dialog at midnight. One, two, three, four. There was no sleep happening. Yeah. So I think that, you know, these tools that we use, you mentioned Slack, you know, I laugh. I have a friend of mine who I can remember in the late 2000s before 2010, you know, it was resistant to a a smartphone. You know, as BlackBerry is went to iPhones, went to Androids. You know, he he only wanted a phone like that when he was out of the office on business like at conferences or something. And he goes, I'm just going to leave it in the office and I'm not using it. It's okay. It's going to be interesting. So it is kind of fascinating. I also have students of mine, which I find interesting too, that they said, wait, I was interviewing an interviewer was criticizing me. I said, Really? For what? He goes, Well, what does he expect? You know, I have emails coming in and this is students on show. Like I said, where were you on your phone interview? And they said, well, you know, everyone's on their phones. You know, he was on his phone. I said, well, he's interviewing, you know, I said, please. I said, I don't believe I have to say this to you. Like shut your phones off. James Laws: Yeah, right. You know, those are the cultural things that we've created in the old culture. Right. That has you talked about like that was that was before cult where you are now and the decisions you're making now is the culture that you're creating and you talk about, you know, the call inside. I just had that recently on Sunday I had this idea for my communications team and so I wrote up a message and I drafted it and I held it until Monday. And then I posted it because I didn't want somebody to see that and think that I had any kind of idea, even though we've already kind of set a culture that says, Hey, I may post something and I don't expect a response for X amount of time, so don't even worry about it. But I purposely held it for that exact same reason that you talked about. And here's what I had to learn as a leader. If I have to interrupt somebody, I don't even care if it's in the workday because we have a flexible schedule there is I have no I have no way of knowing or expecting that anybody might be working. At the same time that I am working, I have no expectation of that. There probably is some crossover, but I don't know. So when I send a message, I have no expectation that I'm going to get an immediate response because we've already set that culture that you may not be working that. But here's what I've determined. If I get frustrated because I sent something, I had some idea I had something I want to talk to somebody about in that moment. And I can't get a hold of somebody that's bad planning on my part. That's not their failure. That's my failure for making that more urgent more than it needs to be. We all know this, right? We're all slaves to the urgent instead of the important. And we and so I just kind of say, like, listen, I have ideas all the time. That's why I run a company that's why I'm an entrepreneur. I have tons of ideas, and sometimes I just need to keep them to myself so that I don't get everyone else thinking that they're going to chase the urgent over what I've all we've already determined and classified as the important. Jonscott Turco: I've come to realize. I know what's interesting about that observation is I've had the same conversation where I said, I don't expect you to be on when I'm on, but I also know how I was when I was much younger. And I would be like, Really? Okay, well, I'm going to show James that I'm all over it and I'm going to be responding whenever it is. So I'd have to force myself similarly to like send things at times where I know they'll get to it, you know, more reasonable expected business hours. And if I have a brain blaster, you know, 1130 on a Sunday morning, I'm not expecting to convene a team, you know, at that moment. It is interesting because as we go through this and again, I love the name of the podcast, including fulfillment, you know, I say to people all the time, I had a conversation with a stranger and my kids are often mortified but have come to expect it from me. Someone next to us was sitting, having a meal. He goes, You know, my friend was in a car accident and he was worried about work and he hates his job and he was so worried about getting in trouble for missing work. And he was in the hospital like laid up in the hospital. And the kid said, and I say, kid showing my age, he was probably 30. And he said, he goes, If I'm ever in a car accident, guys, you know, make sure that when I get out of the hospital, they change this job because I hate this job. So I couldn't keep my mouth shut. And kids I saw my kids, they're having lunch. They're like and I was like I said, I'm sorry to jump in. Like, why are you waiting for a potentially catastrophic accident which a job that you hate? I'm sorry. I mean, I think there's infinite jobs to have no matter what your location is, especially now as we discuss this. You know, I have friends working in every part of the world who work in every part of the world. You know, it's the the market that we're in now is so rapidly changing jobs that exist now will not in the near future. I think I read something. We have something in one of my old intro videos which said that the top 20 jobs and 2030 I don't even exist yet. Yeah, this was going back a couple of years, but I'm certain that's probably even more true today. So how are you responding? How are you developing cultures? Because as you said, and I hate to go back to this, but it's really necessary. Your culture is being created every day by every decision, every behavior, every interaction. That's your culture. It's living, breathing, dynamic. It's not this, you know, it's not a piece of paper with like this is our culture, you know, it's not our mission statement. It's it's constantly being honed and evolved and massaged. I think also, you know, we look at this, I had many clients over the past two years who to your point about in-person versus versus virtually they realize you let's have a call and invite the whole team on the call and then let's have a sidebar and invite some people on in sidebar. Then they have another sidebar, they get things done, they're getting things done. Then they come to them at some point couple of weeks down the road like, hey, like, you know, where's Bob? You know, we haven't included Bob and I'm making up a name where we have an included Bob like, you know, and people start to realize like you know, what is Bob do like if he's not if he's not in these decision making action oriented things. So I think there's been many jobs that have been made obsolete in the past two years, because while I may see James in the office, I may have not really known, like, what exactly are you responsible for delivery? And there's a lot of people in the office I found that were like taking things in their job to take things and move them over here. And in this very transactional culture, we, you know, we've evolved to in some ways where we have meetings to address specific action items, take action, take ownership and deliver. There's not a lot of conversation that's going on that's just conversation, right? There's not a lot of watercooler conversations because and I think this is probably a positive because when James is done with this meeting, he's going to hang up the call. He can run to the gym. He can do whatever he needs to do. I'm not looking to have, you know, a virtual lunch, you know, with my team necessarily on a regular basis. This is an ongoing issue. Right. We we want our culture back. We want the team together. I get it. I mean, I'm a you know, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation. We both weren't very interested in conversation and people. And it doesn't mean it's going to look like what it looked like previously. So how can we help shape this so that people are excited? I mean, people are much more fulfilled in their day to day and those that aren't. And it's right. I read their study recently. I think it was McKinsey or Deloitte that put a study out a few weeks ago that said, you know, Generation X, which I'm a card carrying member of, is far more interested in working remotely than than millennials or boomers. And I was like, wow, like, why is that? And it's I talked to my kids and it's funny, like, they love their flexibility, but they also they're much more reliant on clients to strong or they're much more entertained by the dynamics of interpersonal kind of like these new people. They finish college. Now I'm working and now I welcome this person and they live here. We're going to go to Happy Hour. We're going to do this. You're like, I have enough things going on that I'm not looking to have a protracted necessarily. So I think that it's very fascinating to see how this is evolving because it's it's going very fast. Then let's just layer on top of this web3 and metaverse. I mean, it's it's adding a whole other layer, you know, where people are going to be able to look around and be in in an office where people are building copies of their physical office spaces and the metaverse so that, you know, James is going to show up to the office and they're going to you're going be able to look and see Bob at his desk over there. You know, this is so fascinating to me. You know, and I can say this as an older person you know, I remember having a meeting, you know, my company back then if and I use that term. So specifically if we were going to get the Internet and now for younger people hearing and watching this, I must terrify them and I'll ask you to do the same thing. Like, are you fully ready to embrace Web 301 The Metaverse and how that's going to work? Because this is the only that can compare in terms of seismic changes in how the world operates is going on. You know, it's happening as we speak right now. So I do think that we have an opportunity to really engage teams in a meaningful way, to understand that they have uniqueness that is going to make one approach to leadership impossible. It's always been impossible. But I think people were saying like, that's how we do things here at IBM. That's how we do things here, whatever. Okay. You know, and I think the people who didn't subscribe to that were the outliers, where I think that the majority of people now have their own unique approach, how they want to get things done. And the companies that are going to be successful now and in the future are going to adapt and listen to their teams and to really give them a psychological safety, to say, you know what, I think I really I need this. You're going back to the dating conversation, right? This is what I need to work, because the leaders and organizations that are going to thrive and grow and really shape their future are going to be those organizations are going to meet the top people where they are, give them things to get done, engage them meaningfully, and respect the fact that they're individuals and human beings who have a full life. You know, it's fascinating. You know, it reminds me of something from my old recruitment days where I was recruiting for a marketing person. And the hiring manifesto back then was like, you're getting a heart. You want to get an MBA in marketing, someone with an undergrad in marketing, who worked in marketing, who worked in marketing, who intern in marketing. I said something once, I'm like, You know, I really would rather get like a history major who like, you know, lived in Japan for two years and then came back and did product marketing somewhere, then decide they're going to go back at 28 years old to get their MBA. But they bring so much more of a rich experience to it. And I had to sell that idea back to that, you know, in the mid-nineties, you know, and it was a revolutionary idea. And I remember hiring someone who marketed Cigarets, believe it or not, to come in market cosmetics. And the pushback I got at the time was, you know, she marketed Cigarets. I said, Yeah, and she's super successful and brilliant. And if she could market cigarets, how how do you think it's got to be for her to market lipsticks? And, you know, I said you're not dealing with any kind of social stigma of any dramatic nature in that regard. So I think that there's a a propensity of leaders to follow what was always done, whether they admit it or not. I think most leaders want to seem to think that they're innovative, but they're doing the same thing. Everyone's always done and it's impossible to sustain that going forward or anymore. James Laws: Yeah, I agree. And I think that's a that's a good note to kind of leave people with to think about right as they're as they're listening as they finish this episode that they kind of consider like it's to stick with the status quo. It's, it's we want to think that we're innovative. But the true, true leaders that are going to push their organizations into the future are the ones that are flexible, adaptable, and, as you said, are listening to their teams. They're not just listening to all of the leadership gurus who came before them. And there is plenty to learn from all of that, but they are learning from their teams because the best people to tell you how to lead them well are the people that you're leading. Thank you for a fantastic conversation. If anyone wants to get a hold of you and learn more about you, how can they do that? Jonscott Turco: You can always connect with me and look me up on LinkedIn. Of course, my name is fairly unique, but I'm sure the spelling will be in the notes as well as my company is. Huminx H U M I N X. Which has come simply from my favorite quote, which is Roosevelt's Men in the Arena. That's the IN. So it's human HUM. The IN and then X because it's just everywhere, you know, being able to do this on a global scale. So HUMINX (huminx.com) is my site and I appreciate your time very much. Thanks so much. James Laws: Thanks so much, Jonscott. What a great conversation. And a big thank you to Jonscott for engaging the challenges of our ever changing work culture. Everything we mentioned, including a full transcript of the show, is available over on our website and you can access at any time by visiting leading to fulfillment.com/024. The world of work is changing. Whether corporate CEOs want to admit it or not, this doesn't mean that working in the office is ever completely going away, but more and more remote opportunities will see the balance of power shift dramatically in my company, remote work has given us an incredible chance to embrace flexibility and enable fulfillment. Despite its challenges, working from home has brought out the best in all of us and our company. But allowing people to pack up their desks and head home is barely scratching the surface before you can reap the benefits of working from home. You have to properly support it. So here are six ways to do just that. Invest in thorough training. Let me be clear training isn't suffering because of remote work. Companies have been neglecting training for a long, long time before the world made the shift to work from home. But lack of training in a remote environment has bigger consequences than in co-located businesses. It's harder to pick up valuable information in passing, and it takes more intense action to connect with colleagues who can who can assist you for the most effective remote working environments. We say train well, train often. Create clear documentation. Clear, thorough and easily accessible documentation is vital for remote work. This is especially true in asynchronous environments, but it is also important for remote companies that stick to a universal schedule. Without documentation, workers have to rely on colleagues or leaders for information which can become disruptive. Document, document. Document your processes and procedures. Your project statuses and vision, your assignments and progress you can't over. Document. Encourage frequent communication. Communication doesn't have to suffer in remote work environments and a synchronous communication doesn't mean a lack of communication for remote businesses to succeed. Well, for any businesses business to succeed, great communication is paramount. Establish mentor programs. Mentorship is is hugely helpful in career and personal development, but many companies assume mentee relation. Mentor mentee relationships will happen naturally. On the contrary, they require intention and facilitation. Ask for feedback. We are all human and fallible and we're all going to make mistakes. Remote work is still brand new for many companies, so it's inevitably going to be a learning process. Even if you implement every single bit of advice about remote work, there will be challenges. That's why I recommend periodically asking for feedback. It takes guts to ask where you can improve, but it's a vital resource to improving your work from home culture and processes. And lastly, celebrate wins. Celebrating success may come more naturally in co-located environments. You can cater lunch, give a speech, or bask in the palpable energy of a communal win. Work from home makes this challenging, but don't skip celebrations simply because it takes a bit more thought. Regardless of how you do it, celebrate the wins. It's relatively easy to do and endlessly rewarding in a remote environment that could feel isolating. Otherwise, I can already see the self-fulfilling prophecy. Companies that cling to co-located work won't offer the right support or tools for remote work. And surprisingly, work home won't be as successful for them, and they'll no doubt lose out to some very talented, very dedicated workers. Thanks for listening and I hope you'll join me on the next episode. Until then, may your businesses be successful as you lead your teams to fulfillment.

Conflict is a natural and necessary part of life. But it's how we deal with conflict that determines whether or not it becomes destructive. Let's learn to identify and manage conflict effectively so our businesses can be more successful, productive and healthy. In this episode we discuss… The journey from social services to conflict resolutionaryIdentifying and addressing conflict before it eruptsUnderstanding the need for healthy conflictManaging conflict from discovery to resolution About Our Guest Kristine began her career in social services settings that could get harry. She noticed in the heat of tough situations and she would either over-react or freeze, and got curious if she could do better. This started a 20 year exploration that evolved into her becoming a conflict "resolutionary" who became a highly sought after trainer. She teaches people how to reach in, not freak out, when things get tough. She has been hired by clients like the Seattle Space Needle, farmers markets and office teams, giving people what they need to be firm and friendly in the face of crisis. Resources Mentioned on the Show https://www.seattleconflictresolution.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristinemariescott/ The Transcript Kristine Scott: Well, I think when you know what it feels like to be in your parasympathetic nervous system. Right. Like you have good practices in your free time, things that bring you joy, things that you feel balanced and happy with. Then when you're not in that system, you're like, Oh, I feel that. Normally our workplace, we move in and out of those two realms, we feel escalated stress, we start to get into our sympathetic nervous system, we start to feel a little defended. If we get good at recognizing, what state am I in, then we can actually look at that second state more objectively and you can make a list. These are the things that move me into that red zone, into that zone that my hormones start to take over. James Laws: Welcome to another episode of the Leading to Fulfillment podcast, where everything we talk about is meant to encourage people first. Leaders empower individuals to achieve fulfillment and to help your organizations become places people love to work. I'm your host, James Laws, and I have a fun show in store for you. My guest for this episode is Kristine Scott. Kristine began her career in social service settings that could get hairy. She noticed in the heat of tough situations that she would either overreact or freeze and got curious if she could do better. This started a 20 year exploration that evolved into her becoming a conflict resolutionary, who became a highly sought after trainer. She teaches people how to reach in and not freak out when things get tough. She has been hired by clients like the Seattle Space Needle, farmers markets and office teams, giving people what they need to be firm and friendly in the face of crisis. In my conversation with Kristine, we discuss the journey from social services to conflict resolutionary, identifying and addressing conflict before it erupts. Understanding the need for healthy conflict and managing conflict from discovery to resolution. But first, I want to invite you to subscribe and leave a review for the Leading to Fulfillment Podcast in your favorite podcast tool. Those things really help us get the show out to more people. You can find us on Apple and Google Podcasts and Spotify or even watch it over on YouTube. Now let's jump into my conversation with Kristine Scott. Kristine, thank you so much for joining me on the Leading The Fulfillment podcast. Kristine Scott: Oh, thank you. I'm so excited to be here, James. James Laws: I'm really excited today because one of the things that we're constantly working for and one of the things that I'm constantly pushing for within my own business, and this podcast is a step to try to put it outside of my business is creating a healthy work culture. And in the process of creating a healthy work culture, we acknowledge that conflicts are going to arise, no matter how healthy your culture is, conflicts are ultimately going to rise. But you talk a lot about conflict. But before we jump right into that, I want to ask you tell me a little bit about your journey from social services into what you call being a conflict resolutionary and I'd love to hear a little bit about that story. Kristine Scott: Oh, thank you. Well, I was hired many years ago as an AmeriCorps to run a program for homeless young people. Our job was to give them dinner every night. And my first night there, it was absolute chaos. My purse was stolen. My food volunteers were frightened. There were fights that were breaking out like every 3 minutes because there was this 14 year old girl who was just all mouth and all problems. And there was about 50 homeless young people in this small church basement. And I just kind of looked at the situation, said, oh, my gosh, AmeriCorps is only paying me $900 a month to do this. I am not coming back. And then an interesting thing happened. This voice rang out over the crowd and he said, Hey, little bean, knock it off. You're messing it up for the whole burrito. And everything got quiet and people got manners. And they started just like saying, please and thank you. And I got really curious, like, wait a minute. That one phrase, that one person shifted the whole dynamic in this room. How did that happen? How are these guys accountable to each other? Because everything I was seeing was telling me, like, these guys are out of control and I'm going to get hurt. So my white lady from the suburbs, like, had had a major lesson that day. And I started realizing and there's something about street culture and about how these guys take care of each other that I don't understand. So I stuck around and they became some of my greatest teachers. And I continued to provide social services, including shelters and group homes but I started leaning in to what was going on for them and getting their advice about how to handle stuff because they were living it. They were living in conflict every day. And so I started like translating their lessons into like what I consider house normative speak so that, so that other people could learn from those lessons. I started training our volunteers and how to handle conflict, and then other agencies contacted me like, Hey, can you try and train my staff too? And it just grew into this bigger cause. And now I train the staff at the Space Needle, for example. It's just become this thing that so much larger than social services, much more about how conflict is that opportunity for us to be completely raw and honest with each other is the time that we're not correct, we're not polite, we're not nice, we're vulnerable and powerful stuff happens then. James Laws: You know, as I hear you talking about conflict and thinking about that early situation, for that kind of first initial experience, that's one of those situations where kind of conflict kind of hit you in the face. Right? It's like you couldn't avoid the conflict. The conflict was coming at you full force. And yet, as I talk about building healthy cultures, a lot of times there's conflict brewing and people in the organization aren't even aware of it, or at least it's many times the leaders aren't aware of it. How can we get better at identifying conflicts early so that we can deal with them? Because I know from personal experience, that the longer you let conflict fester, the longer you let it grow, the longer you go with it unaddressed, the worse it becomes. And if you deal with it quickly, if you deal with it early, you can avoid some of that.But that's challenging. What are some better ways? What are ways we can start to identify conflicts in our organizations? Kristine Scott: I think a lot of that depends on what is your supervising and listening culture, right? If your supervisor is the only one you're accountable to, then there will be conflict. When we become bosses, all of our best selves and all of our worst selves get magnified, right? Are the things that we don't know yet become bigger. The things that we're good at become bigger because we have this responsibility and we have the stage. And I would say poor personnel management is the number one source of conflict. Before the pandemic, you ask people who are leaving their organization, why did you leave? 35% of them said poorly handled conflict. And most of that was with their direct supervisors. And most folks, that are being evaluated only by this one person and really feel like they're being hemmed in only by this one person are going to have conflict with that. And it's interesting, like you asked people after the Great Recession and after, you know, the pandemic, like, why did you leave? And and the data now is money flexibility and I don't feel respected. I don't feel respected is actually number two on the main reasons why people are leaving. James Laws: Yeah, it's interesting, a lot of times we talk about people don't necessarily leave bad companies, they leave bad leaders, bad managers and and I heard someone say, and I agree with this concept, too, it's not even that they leave companies that tolerate bad managers and bad leaders and don't ever try to correct it. Don't ever try to get into the conflict and say what's going on? But you said something early on that I thought was interesting, It says It depends on who you are accountable to. And if you're only accountable to that one manager, you are going to have conflict. I'd love for you to unpack that a little bit more and say how should accountability look in an organization, in a team to to mitigate perhaps or catch conflict early so that I can be addressed. What do you recommend for a structure like that? Kristine Scott: I recommend 360 evals where people are accountable to everybody, the people they supervise to the people they work laterally with because when you have somebody who's traditionally like a bully, they can charm the socks off of their direct supervisor and then treat everybody below them like crap. And studies done on bullying in the workplace actually find it's more common to occur than sexual harassment. But we don't really talk openly about that because we build these these organizational charts that's very top down. And what's interesting is you and I, like the people who are part of of the Gen X generation, right? We we were supervised by the boomers. And so we have this choice now. Like, are we going to take all of that really top down and that the person in charge is always right kind of crap? Or are we going to listen to the wisdom of these younger generations that are coming up under us? And these are the ones that are quitting. These are the ones that are saying, hey, I don't deserve this. Right? These are the ones that are redefining what a good and healthy workplace looks like. And when we have the authority to not listen to them and choose to not listen to them, it just feels like the pandemic has made us have to stop and think like maybe we should, because, like, look at this data on the folks that are quitting and go into these other jobs. I think you're right. I think they are following leaders that that can really respect them. So 360 evals big help, employee ombudsman so you have a place to go and talk when you have a complaint. And using conflict as a tool for constant improvement. Okay, so something's brewing. Here's what we learned. Here's what we're going to change. Did we get that right? Like everybody's got their fingerprints on kind of doing an autopsy about this conflict. And you're right, you got to you got to lean in quickly and just understand when there's a morale issue or there's something brewing between employees, it's not about right, wrong, blame, shame, it's about there's something going on here that we have to look at. I used to run a nonprofit for a living and my first go to was we need to write better policies, and it would never work. All of that carefully crafted, beautiful language would just sit on the shelf and people would still do what they were going to do. You have to really, really have folks that are tuned in to people's experience, what's going on with them emotionally, what's going on with the social norms. I have this new definition of power that really helps me as I look at dynamics and I talk to employers and that is that we all have power that's wrapped in kind of this thing called rank, that's wrapped in this thing called status. And when we are in the workplace, our status is what people see, our job title, our place in the hierarchy. But our power is something we all have that a good leader will really draw out of us. Our power is basically those places that we were wounded, and then we've put them to work to become stronger and better people. But we get confused because we also have this rank thing where, you know, owning class folks and white clothes, white folks and all that stuff, you know, we, we get too endeared with those types of hierarchies and that and the positional hierarchy and we stop really pulling out people's power. James Laws: I love that. I just talked about this in a previous episode and this is something that we kind of poke at a lot. Is that when we hire people on our team, we're hiring people, not positions. We're hiring though the totality of who this person is and their experiences, that means we're hiring their drama, their trauma, their everything that they've gone through and in order for them to be the right person in the company, they have to be able to bring their whole self, every part of it. We don't leave our personal lives at the door. We bring it in fully because who you are is all of these things that I need to bring all that in and and really embrace the fullness of who every team member is and what they bring to the organization. It's what makes us more diverse. It closes the information gaps, the knowledge gaps as we have more people and we fill that in, it's kind of like a strainer. It starts to close up all those little gaps because we have different people with different experiences, different trauma, different lifestyles. So I think it's really interesting to think about that as we're hiring. In some ways and I wonder what your take is on this, while I would say in a healthy work culture you're bound to have conflict. Conflict isn't necessarily bad. Sometimes you need conflict in order to make good decisions, in order to get all the information out. And if you are hiring a diverse work culture, the goal is to create more conflict in your organization. Tell me what your thoughts are on that. Kristine Scott: Yeah, yeah. It's how that conflict is handled. Exactly. That if you have everybody responding to the same norms and the same rules and the same conduct level, you're not going to have a very dynamic and flexible and adaptive team. They're going to just be this echo chamber. So you want to actually have a space that holds conflict safely and in a way that encourages individuals to speak pretty authentically. James Laws: I was thinking back reading Patrick Lynch's book Death by Meetings, anyone who hasn't read it, definitely you should read it. But one of his points is the reason our meetings are terrible and the reasons our meetings are boring. It's because we as a facilitator, the leaders of those meetings don't spend enough time mining for the conflict. The goal should be I know everyone sitting at this table doesn't agree on this topic, so how do I get you to talk about your disagreements so the we can not get consensus, but so we can get the best information and then ultimately still have to make a decision that's going to be flawed. It's going to lean one way or the other. Somebody is still not going to agree with the decision. But at least all the conflict was heard, it was all brought to the surface. And we made a decisions with the knowledge of that conflict, not void of of hearing every voice. Kristine Scott: I know in my career I definitely went from being conflict avoided to a conflict lover and it's just that place where we feel strongly enough about something that that our raw honesty can show up. And once people have that permission to do that with each other, it changes teams. There's much more of a lean in. There's much more engagement. James Laws: You know, it's funny, I have a particular team member and as I talk about this person, this person knows exactly who I'm talking about as they listen to this, that we have conflict all the time, we see the world differently. We approach problems differently. And so when we are talking about a feature in a piece of software or we're talking about a process or a system that we need to develop or any of those things, many times we will butt heads and we can argue and we can argue loudly and boisterous, but we walk away knowing and I think this is an important part of this, too, is we've cultivated a relationship where our arguments are a safe place. I'm okay with the fact that they disagree with me. They are okay with the fact that I disagree with them. And we come at it from very different perspectives. I come at it with a lot of gut and heart, and he comes at it with a lot of reasoning and rationale and what he thinks, you know, what he thinks are the numbers to that situation. And I have to respect that now, even though I may still disagree with that. As you talk about that, I think about the dynamics of conflict in our teams. And that's a situation. But I had another person who it wasn't respectful, it wasn't mutual. There was this kind of in the midst of the conflict, you heard the tone, I don't respect you as a leader. I don't respect your opinion. I think you are just wrong and not because we don't see it the same way, because I think you are fundamentally wrong. And that was it was a different dynamic. I guess one of the things I wonder while we think conflict is healthy and we ought to mind for conflict, we ought to look for conflict, we ought to create organizations where conflict is a safe norm. Eventually the conflict has to resolve. Yeah, we have to kind of get to the end and say, you know, we had our debate, we had our arguments, we were loud, we were boisterous, we were emotional, we brought all the information. What's your recommendation of taking all of that volatility, all of that that energy and emotion and bringing it to resolution? How do you recommend in a good meeting where there is that kind of argument and you want a little bit of that? How do you bring that to closure? How do you bring that to resolution? Kristine Scott: Well, first off, the people who are agreeing to have this conflict need to have some internal skills where they're showing up without their mammal running the show. So that's what I that's what I do with a lot of my I mean, that's a core part of my training is helping people de-escalate themselves so that they can show up from, you know, scientifically, this is called your parasympathetic nervous system, like the part of you that can receive new information, consider multiple perspectives, knows that nothing is going to hurt you, right? Like that part needs to show up. But there's been some studies that show that if I say, Hey, James, you're a bad boss, that there's a part of you, that response to that is actually the same part that responds to this tiger is going to eat me, right? Because this is a threat to your status and a threat to your rank within that situation. And our our not so evolved self in our brain actually interprets that as a threat to your life. So you could have this conflict response. That's really unreasonable, right? Because when our mammal selves show up, we either go too big or too small. And there's there's there's no working with somebody who's in that mode. They're not rational, they're not receiving new information, and they're looking for the thing that's going to kill them. All right. So you just have to acknowledge that once that mechanism has been triggered, they're pretty worthless for about 20 minutes. And nothing, nothing good is going to come out of it. They pretty much need to be removed from the situation, given a chance to calm down and it needs to come up when folks have those skills around how to de-escalate themselves first. James Laws: That's interesting. So it feels like, you know, in a lot of those situations, someone I don't want to say someone has to be the adult because I don't want to demean the other people in those conversations. But somebody has to be mature enough to recognize guys. I've been triggered, they've been triggered. And we're going to pause this conversation where take a 20, 30 minute break. We're going to come back at it tomorrow. We're going to reschedule this meeting and start over or start where we left off with fresh heads, fresh minds and perspectives and I, I can I can definitely think in my, you know, in my long history, the times where I have failed at that and the times where I have succeeded at that. And yeah, walking away, taking a step back. What you don't want you talk about, right? They either overreact or they under react, right? They they either get really big and they dig their heels in and they basically stop listening and just say, it's my way. My way is the right way. And they stop listening or they just they just shut down and be like, whatever, do whatever you want. And I have seen myself respond both of those ways in my lifetime. Right? I've seen those responses where I dig in or I'm just like, you know, I do what you want. I don't even care anymore. Like, and neither those are healthy approaches. Kristine Scott: All right. James Laws: And yet we fall to that all the time. I do. I love the idea of, you know, obviously building that maturity. How do you develop that in team members? How do you develop that, that knowledge that some of it is security? Right. Some of it is a security in themselves. A we're ultimately you know at my company and circles.com what we're trying to espouse is helping our team members who work within our organizations find true fulfillment. I think part of my answer to this might be that if you if you can help your team members find true fulfillment, those little jabs that otherwise would trigger them don't trigger them as much because they love what they're doing. They believe what they do matters and they know the impact they have on what they're doing. And so they're like, All right, I get it. We're upset, right? But let's let's step back. But what are some thoughts you have on how do you develop those? I don't even know. I don't know if you call those soft skills, you're right to just be able to recognize this has gone too far and we need to step away. Kristine Scott: Well, I think when you know what it feels like to be in your parasympathetic nervous system, right, like you have good practices in your free time, things that bring you joy, things that you feel balanced and happy with. Then when you're not in that system, you're like, Oh, okay. I feel that like normally our workplace, we move in and out of those two realms, so we feel isolated, stressed. We start to get into our sympathetic nervous system. We start to feel a little defended. If we get good at recognizing What state am I in, then then we can actually look at that second state more objectively and you can make a list. These are the things that move me into that red zone, into that zone that my hormones start to take over. Like for me, I could name that list and I got better and better to the point where I used to be peripheral to those situations, like somebody, you know, waving a knife used to just really freak me out, as you can imagine, right when I was. James Laws: I think that's a natural response. Kristine Scott: That's a natural response. Right. But I got exposed to a lot at shelters so that I could keep on moving myself closer and closer to things that used to just shut me down because I had the awareness like, okay, so what does this remind me of what's really going on? And I got better at situations that used to just terrified me because I had the awareness about what was really going on. What what is the message that I'm receiving right now? Because the places that we have, that Velcro that we have, those places that somebody just knows how to push our buttons, those are just signs that something needs to happen in our in our personal life around some healing, maybe some childhood stuff, maybe some associations we have or bad, bad messages that we've internalized, that we just have to exercise. And our bodies are very consistent little robots to tell us exactly where we need to do our work. Right. Like, it's, it's amazing how trauma works. We just will always have those buttons. And when we address those, yes. What we'll find some new ones. And that's a part of the that's a part of the path. That's where I call it becoming a conflict resolution area, because it's it's it's a journey. You know, you you talk about and you mentioned that some of the things that trigger us, you know, and I think about as kids when we were young and we found ourselves in conflict with our friends or not our friends, we knew how to push buttons. We knew how to we knew exactly. You know, kids are kids are so perceptive. James Laws: Like they know that they know how to cut you, like where it really, really, really hurts. And that we were masters at it as children and as adults. I think even when we do find ourselves in conflict, we do find ourselves getting triggered. Sometimes the reaction is to trigger them back is to try to figure out, how do I get you back, get you in the same irrational headspace that I'm in? I wonder you mentioned one of those, right? Like when somebody says you're a bad boss or you're a bad manager or whatever, right? What are some of the other trigger words or phrases that make conflicts worse rather than help them move towards perhaps a healthy resolution that you've experienced in in communication? Kristine Scott: Well, of course, anytime you make it personal, right, anytime you make it about the other person is going in the wrong way. Right. And I would I would also say that when you really notice that you're pulling on the the the people in the room as a way to, like, build build your audience and build your case, that's also a bad sign when when you start grouping and lumping people on one side of an issue or another side of an issue. James Laws: Yeah. Kristine Scott: You know that that tends to explode fast. James Laws: Yeah. I, you know. Yeah. As you say that I can think of times where unintentionally certainly not a tactic that I was thinking but I, I certainly could see in my situation where I start, where I think I have a valid opinion and I think there are others on my side and I start to pull them in like I'm picking a kickball team and I've pulled them in on my side, which then alienates the other person and makes them feel like they have to defend themselves because now they're fighting more people. It's not just 1 to 1 dialog, it's now it's a fight. It's the Sharks and the Jets, right? Like right now. Now where it's a gang war. And so I can definitely see how that how that can have an impact as well. Kristine Scott: The other thing I want you folks to watch for is black and white thinking any time, anytime the nuance leaves the room, you're in trouble. We tend to get very like, well, it's got to be like this. And if you don't see it, you're like that. You know, we start. Oh, yeah, labeling and, and entrenching that. Yeah. James Laws: That's I mean that's and and sadly right. And because of the media and social media and the actual news, that's what we are inundated with all the time is these absolute positions. You know, you think about the the arguments between Republicans and Democrats and the the religious and the non-religious and the and there's everyone is so built on these absolutes. I was just having a conversation with my wife about this very topic. I said, the biggest problem with social media and everyone's opinion is the fact that they are too caught up in. They are absolutely right, which means the other person is absolutely evil, like they just immediately cast and paint them with this broad brush of I think this under all circumstances, no matter what, even if I don't fully understand the situation and therefore you are bad and evil. And I think that's where this kind of cancel culture kind of comes around with, right? We want to want to cancel people because we have brushed them absolute lee with a stroke. Well, you believe this thing that I deeply disagree with. Therefore, you must be bad if you don't think about the fact. Well, you know, culturally, they were raised a certain way and they may not think this thing because they are bad people or they are hateful. They may believe this thing because they were raised in conditioned to believe a thing. And the worst thing we do and this, I think, comes really good to conflict resolution. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. The worst thing we do with cancel culture is we shut down the conflict. We shut down the conversation, and nobody changed because we just decided to stop talking to each other. Kristine Scott: Right? Right, yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of big conversations we need to have right now. Conversations about race, conversations about democracy, conversations about how we see ourselves, as you're mentioning, in the workplace. And we don't have the skills or the tools in a lot of places to to have those conversations safely, because we have the structure that's kind of built into our society right now, especially in social media, that gets money from this dichotomy. This dichotomy is actually making Facebook profits. Right. Is actually making is so so we aren't really unwrapping that. We aren't really seen like, oh, there's there's a reason for civility that we might want to like look at. James Laws: Yeah. And you know, I hate to say it because it feels so it feels so cynical and it feels so almost conspiracy theorists in a way. But the truth is, we're all being programed all the time. Every single day we're being programed and on our own side or against our side or whatever. I mean, there's been enough studies to show that if you if somebody watches the other news channel that they don't otherwise watch for long enough, they will start to espouse those opinions because they are being inundated with that logic. And all of a sudden it becomes clear and Facebook is a perfect example, that when your Facebook friends all share the same information and share the same stuff, you start to believe that as the absolute truth. And and it doesn't matter which side you're on on that it happens. We're all being programed. And so figuring out how to not I. I liked your your mammal self how not to let your mammal self like take over in that situation and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. One of the one of the triggers of absolute always right? If somebody is always or never, always or never, that's a pretty big red flag in conversation for me that says you've not spent enough time with this topic if it's always or never, because it's rarely is anything always and never. Kristine Scott: Yeah, no, you're exactly right. James Laws: Kristine. I really love this conversation and kind of processing and thinking through conflict. I want to give you the last word. And people who want to get in touch with you learn more about what you're doing and how to contact you out. Where can they do that? Or if there's anything that I should have asked you that I did not ask you and you'd like to share? I'd love to hear about that as well. Kristine Scott: I just really want people to know that the fact that they believe they suck at conflict is not their fault. I don't don't take on that mantle. Just understand, you have this thing called biology and sociology, this working against you and get really curious about where are your opportunities to do better, to kind can name those triggers and learn from them and lean in so that you can hold on to conflict with with without it. Like spoken. You just think of it like a, like a kind of holding space for things to be a little uncomfortable. And that that's where you're growing edges when it's a little uncomfortable. James Laws: Strong, strong advice. I think we know this in physical as well. Right? You work out you work yourself out to the point of strong. You go a little bit harder. You push yourself to a little bit more comfortable, a little more weight than you're used to. A little run a little longer than you're used to, a little farther than you use. Do all of those things push you to grow, get stronger and better at it? And so even in the midst of conflict, recognize that that that conflict is making you stronger and making you better as you face it, and work towards resolving it. Kristine, thank you. How can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more about you and what you're doing? Kristine Scott: Yeah, my website is SeattleConflictResolution.com. So they are welcome to hit me up there. I really look forward to hearing from folks and I do work remotely so folks don't have to be in Seattle to work with me. James Laws: Awesome. Kristine, thank you again so much for being on the Leading to Fulfillment podcast and having this great conversation. I really appreciate it. Kristine Scott: Thank you. This is a lot of fun. James Laws: I want to thank Kristine for a great discussion on the topic of conflict, and I hope you got as much out of it as I did. Everything we mentioned. A full transcript of the show is available over on our website and you can access it any time by visiting leadingtofulfillment.com/023. Also on that website you can subscribe to our newsletter there. We'll let you know every time a new episode becomes available as well as send your original and curated content and leadership managing teams and finding fulfillment. This episode, we focus exclusively on managing conflict. Great communication is one of the most important skills to being successful at work and at conflict. And as many of us work from home, good communication becomes even more important. With that in mind, I'd like to share with you my six rules of great communication. Assume the best. How you begin a conversation can make or break it. Why not start that dialog off with some positive energy, whether you're starting the discussion or someone else has kicked it off? Step into it. Assuming that all parties are on the same side and the same side doesn't mean in total agreement. It means you all want to get an outcome that is best for the group, project or challenge you are facing. Of course, this doesn't mean that you allow anyone to be abusive. The purpose here is to understand that points, contrary to your perspective, aren't necessarily hostile.Seek to understand your first reaction. Should never be a counterpoint, should be thoughtful questions that demonstrate curiosity. The goal isn't to be right. The goal is to discover what's possible, to get clarity on the subject and the possible perspectives. The goal is to learn how everyone else sees the particular matter.Slow it down. When we slow conversations down, we're showing that we respect the topic and the people enough to take our time and not just regurgitate our already formed opinions. You may still end up there, but at least you put in the work.Don't take it personally. How you manage the outcomes from a discussion is just as much a part of being a great team communicator as other things that we've covered. If you if you take things personally and you continue to debate once the decision has been made and not only shows you don't respect the people who made the decision, but it harms your future interactions with the team.Be okay to walk away. This is not the same running away from conflict. You are not permanently avoiding this conversation. You're simply taking a respite so you can gain clear perspective. If the matter is resolved before you return, please don't take it personally.Study past conversations. Take the time to learn what does and doesn't work for you and your team. Share your insights with them, grow together and if they don't listen, don't take it personally. And remember that your only responsible for how you communicate. Thanks for listening and I hope you'll join me on the next episode. And until then, may your businesses be successful as you lead your teams to fulfillment

Burnout is inevitable when we lose sight of our purpose and achieving success is more than just working hard. Leaders who focus on their purpose and how they can contribute to others are more likely to see lasting progress and more fulfilled teams. In this episode we discuss… The influence and power of purposeHow leaders can partner with their team with purposeThe difference between being busy and productiveThe toll of burnout and how to prevent it About Our Guest Catherine is a Transformational Life & Business Coach. She focuses her coaching on empowering individuals, entrepreneurs, and businesses to lead with purpose to prosper. She hosts the podcast "Fearless Future w/Catherine McCourt" and is published in online blogs and magazines such as thriveglobal.com. Her motto is LIFE: "Live In Fearless Evolution" Resources Mentioned on the Show https://www.catherinemccourt.com/linkedin.com/in/catherine-l-mccourt-8a51553ahttps://www.instagram.com/fearless.future/?hl=enhttps://www.instagram.com/catherinelmccourt/ The Transcript Catherine McCourt: I think from a leadership standpoint, you really need to check in with your team, understand, you know, what is on the ground for them, how it is that they're approaching their work. And it's usually pretty obvious when you start recognizing, burnout. But if you want to catch it before that, it is about understanding how your team is working. And, you know, why does one person seem like they're happier? I'll say 100% of the time, even though we know that's not necessarily always possible. But who's coming in to work really happy and jazzy on things? And another one who's still performing but maybe lacks that luster. And so taking recognition of that and actually pulling your team member aside and having a conversation about, you know, where they're at and are there external things creating this or is it the job? Because what you can do is hopefully catch it before it turns into burnout and help them find new and better ways to work moving forward. James Laws: Welcome to another episode of the Leading to Fulfillment podcast, where everything we talk about is meant to encourage people first. Leaders empower individuals to achieve fulfillment and to help your organizations become places people love to work. I'm your host, James Laws, and I have a great show in store for you. My guest for this episode is Catherine McCourt. Catherine is a transformational life and business coach. She focuses her coaching on empowering individuals, entrepreneurs and businesses to lead with purpose to prosper. She hosts the podcast Fearless Future with Catherine McCourt and is publishing online blogs and magazines such as ThriveGlobal.com. Her motto in life is Live and fearless Evolution. In my conversation with Catherine, we discuss the influence and power of purpose, how leaders can partner with their team with purpose, the difference between being busy and productive, and even the toll of burnout and how to prevent it. But first, I want to invite you to subscribe and leave a review for the leading fulfillment podcast in your favorite podcast tool. We are on Apple and Google Podcasts, Spotify, and you can even watch us over there on YouTube. Now let's jump in to my conversation with Catherine McCourt. Catherine, thank you so much for joining me today on the Leading the Fulfillment podcast. Catherine McCourt: Thanks so much, James. It's an honor to be here. A real pleasure. James Laws: I'm really excited for this conversation because as I read over some of your material and I was just kind of familiarizing myself with you, you talk about something that I care a lot about. I'm going to talk a little longer than I do in this first part, just cause I want to set this up properly. I have a model that I have been using with my team and we have been sharing on our website for some time now called is kind of the circles fulfillment model. And for those who can't see or if you go to the website ciircles.com you can see it there that circles with two i's in case you wonder. We have this Venn diagram and of this Venn diagram there are three circles obviously that overlap at the very center. What I am looking for, for my team and for other leaders is to help them find fulfillment, find the thing that they really connect to, that that gets them excited every single day. Well, when you look at that vendor diagram at the center where all three circles overlap, it's fulfillment. But there are there are three other points where two circles at a time overlap with each other. And those three overlaps are what I have kind of talked about as the motivational drivers to fulfillment. They're the things that get us excited and actually form what fulfillment actually is. Help us maintain it. One of those very specifically, it's purpose. And so the three of them are passion, progress and purpose purpose. One of the motivational drivers I know purpose is extremely important to you and the things that you talk about. Can you share a little bit with us and your journey towards purpose and what purpose means to you and what you do? Catherine McCourt: Certainly. Well, my my journey to purpose has kind of been a two, two part series. And I think if you ask anyone who believes that they live by purpose or live with purpose, it is a journey. It's not something that you find one day and then, oh, there it is. I've got it. And the rest of your life is going to going to be perfect, and you're always going to feel like you're fulfilled. That's just not reality. But my pursuit, I guess I call it to purpose, really started in my twenties. And I had, you know, finished school and started my career. And I've always been a very driven career person and I happened to be working for it was my second or third company that I had started working for, and I thought I was on the path of what I thought was would really resonate with me, which was, you know, working in tech. And I always loved to be sort of ahead of the game and know like what new features and technology is coming out. And I was starting at the bottom. I was an assistant to a VP sales and marketing at the time, but I very quickly, within three years had grown my role into a key account manager and then I ended up getting laid off. And what happened at that point was it made me realize very quickly that, you know, you could seem like you have all those boxes, ticks and ticked off in terms of what you want out of a career or what out of a job or out of the people even that you work with, the types of teams that you work with, and they could all be ticked off. Well, but there is no insecurity as me. No, there's no security in any job really. So sorry to say that. But it's true. You have to be the driver of your own future and what happened after that lay off was I started going to job interviews and I was really feeling like they went amazing. I had great rapport with the interviewer, but every time it came to an offer, I felt flat and I thought,How can I really get behind this company? Is it really something that I am passionate about? Is it something that I could, you know, get excited about? And it wasn't really happening for me. And I sort of sat back and realized there was a ton of other things going on in my life like, turmoil in relationships and things like that. And I really took a moment to kind of sit and say, you know, what have I been telling myself all along? What do I really, really want to do? And what one thing that I knew for sure was that I didn't want to stay in the city where I grew up. And it's an amazing city. It's Montreal here in Canada. But I just always felt, even from a teenage teenager, that I wanted to live somewhere else. So I thought, I haven't done that yet and now is the time. I don't have any responsibilities in terms of like family and children and all that here. My family had gone through illness and had now healed. My brother had nieces who were of an age now where they would remember me if I went away for a couple of years. So I just felt it was the right time. And so I had moved across the country. And so I would say that moment of moving across the country with no job and just really setting out on this new journey, in this new path for myself meant that I had a found or sort of gotten myself on the path of purpose. So I decided to do something that I knew would resonate with me. So moving to a place where I could live a really active lifestyle all year round and then from there, because that happened, I was able to then go, Alright, this, this was a vision I had and made it happen. What next? And so it wasn't until three years in that I ended up, you know, working for a couple of different organizations and also worked for myself. So I figured if I can't find the right job, I'm going to create the right job. And so I started a little marketing freelance business and I did that for about a year and a half. And then I stumbled upon I wanted to see what was happening in the market, and I stumbled upon this company that just I read everything about it online and with every page I read, it was just as if it was filling me up with like, I don't know, just it seemed like it was tapping into things that I am passionate about. So for an example, protecting the environment, things that are sustainable, a company that really has a strong mission to spread to the world about, you know, if we don't keep start protecting our planet better, we're not going to have a planet to go out and plan. So it really struck me as something that I could get behind and it moved me emotionally. So I said, I want to work for this company. And at the time they didn't have a marketing role. But I also had a sales background and I said, You know what, I'm just going to go in in the sales aspect. And then once I'm in the doors, obviously, then I can assess the situation and maybe eventually move into marketing again. But that didn't happen. I ended up being with the brand for 11 years and I stayed in sales and some people are like, God, 11 years. I've had three different roles within that organization. I was able to build a ton of stuff while I was there and learn at the same time. But the thing, the key thing for me was that I was able to stand with a brand and and work with a brand that absolutely had a purpose, a mission, and it aligned with mine. So, yeah. James Laws: I love that story and I think there's so many important takeaways to, to pull out of that. One of those being, and this is maybe hard for business owners or leaders with a team, you may work really hard with your team to help your team members find fulfillment and they still might end up leaving, right? They still may come a time when it's time for them to transition away. And that doesn't mean you did a bad job and it doesn't mean your company's bad. It means that fulfillment is a moving target for individuals. Yes, it does change. We evolve and grow. And I think that's a really powerful thing. And one other kind of take away from that is I talked about purpose in my diagram and there's these two circles that overlap. Well, as a leader, it's been hard for me to come to terms with the fact that I can't make my give my team purpose. I can't give people purpose. But what I can do is I can give them something to connect to, which is one of those circles connection. And I can give them clarity of what is important to me as an organization or to my organization. And if I can give them those two things, then they can discover whether or not they find purpose within my organization. And it sounds to me as you kind of made that transition and found this company, you create, there is connection and clarity to something that you found purpose. And I just think those are some cool takeaways. It's a kind of pluck out of that story as people journey towards their own path towards fulfillment. Catherine McCourt: Yeah. And I mean, if I can just step in to kind of expand on that, you know, the second part of my journey was that now I had been in my first role with the business and it was three years in and I hit a massive burnout and it was a burnout where I didn't even recognize I was burnout until I was two years into the burnout. And I just kept plugging along and just finding things outside of work. So such as my workouts, I ran three half marathons without training just because I figured, no, look, I still have stamina, I can do this. And I didn't want to give in to thinking that I was a outgrown my role because I love the company and I was like, what am I going to do if I don't find another company that I feel this passionate about? So I wanted to make it work. And so that was a bit to my own detriment is that I spent two years in that space until I finally couldn't do it anymore. And I was in a yoga class and I was lying on my mat at the end and I started tearing up and I was like, Where is this coming from? There's something wrong. I am not I am not listening to myself enough here. And that at that moment is when I started to change my life again in terms of recalibrating I'll call it that, to what's my real reason why I love this brand and what can I do here? And if it's not with them, then how can I bring this somewhere else? And I lucked out. It just so happened that my leaders at the time were like, Look, we love you. We recognize you're ready to leave. We don't want you to. What do you want to create here? So I had that autonomy and that ability to do that. And so I started and created a channel for them over the last six years. And it got it was in a place where I could sell the way I wanted to work with types of businesses that I wanted to. And I felt like I was growing as a business development manager. But I was also helping other businesses grow in a capacity that I don't think they had had from other brands that they had worked with. So yeah, it ended up working out. James Laws: That's, that's really cool. And I respect what the leaders of the company that you were with did and that they saw an opportunity to partner with their team, even if that moved them slightly outside and away from their own company because to me, that is the one of the kind of the the form of the people first leader. Right. Is you recognize, like your people, the people in your company are with you for a period of time and it's usually not a long period of time. And so you're your opportunity is to pour into them and help them in their journey in any way that you possibly can. And sometimes it's to help them leave and transition with ease and with tranquility and peace and help them on that journey. And it and it sounds like you got the two of you were the perfect pair of somebody who had a vision, something that you wanted to do, something you cared of, but still a great deal of respect and passion for the brand and the company that you work for and leaders who recognize not to hold people too tightly and to find out how to let them soar and do what they're going to do. I think that's a beautiful example of what people first leadership ought to look like in our organizations. Catherine McCourt: I have to say, I mean on that is that this company, you know, they've evolved and they moved on and they were purchased by a much larger company, which now, the dynamics are likely a little different. But I do know that the larger company that purchased them has a huge mission in this world, and they absolutely have purpose to the businesses that they own integrated throughout what they do, which is really important. By working with this company from a very early stage in their business, they were 15 years in when I started working with them. And they're now, you know, 25 plus year old company. But I had the ability to see them and their development of their leadership within a short period of time, which not every company is going to be 100% great at leadership. Let's just get honest here. There are things that ebb and flow in every company. So I'm not saying they are like the absolute best at their leadership, but what it brought to me, the purpose part and the leadership of how they handled things with me just made me realize that, you know, whatever businesses I work with, again, whether it's internal or external, those are the things that are going to be important into what I look for and how they value that purpose piece and their leadership piece and how they run their business. James Laws: Absolutely. And I agree. We have to be careful. We don't want to put people up on pedestals to the point where are these imperfect examples of leadership or these perfect examples of leadership that just don't hold up. I always say this to my team all the time I have values, but I fail to live up to my own values all the time. That is not abnormal. I think that's human. Right? Like we all have these aspirations that are meaningful and super important values that are very deeply rooted. And every day I battle to stand the course, and to live my values and not find myself contradicting what I believe in or contradicting what is important to me. So, leaders are perfect, but even imperfect leaders can do really great things and and really change the course of their teams if they're willing to be humble, teachable, if they're willing to acknowledge that they have room to grow and room to learn. So I think that's cool. Catherine McCourt: I think that leadership, you have to recognize is much like success. It means something different to everyone. And there's not just one formula to leadership, although, you know, you hear through the Forbes of the world in The New York Times and Inc.com. They do a ton of research and absolutely valid information that they share with us in terms of how or what leadership should look like. But I think there is a foundational part that you start from in terms of what you should look for in good leadership. But then from there, it's really up to the individual to create. People are successful leaders a lot of times because it's things within them, not everything that they're taught. James Laws: Yeah. And I ultimately think leadership in a lot of ways is made up of these kind of three parts. The foundation you talk about. There's there's a standard understanding of leadership that is true regardless of who you are and who you're leading that is important for leadership. There is who you are, the individual person that you are, that you bring to the table as a leader. That's going to be unique because you are unique. And then there's this other layer that every person that you lead sometimes needs you to be something very specific for them. You have to adapt and change for the person that you're leading and those three components. That's why leadership is so difficult, because there's there's only really one kind of stable part and then there's these two parts of me changing and my team changing. And a leader has to constantly ebb and flow and be and respond to the circumstances in the world that they live in. And it's challenging. Catherine McCourt: Yes. James Laws: I talked about these motivational drivers, one of the other motivational drivers in my Venn diagram, if you move clockwise to the right, the next motivational driver that I talk about a lot and if you've seen any content on our website or listen to the episodes you'd catch it, is progress. Progress happens to be one of my primary motivational drivers. It's one of the things that really gets me going. If I can just make things a little bit better at a time, that motivates me a lot just to kind of keep moving and keep going. But I always talk about the fact that progress is not the same as productivity and progress is not the same as activity like you can be active, meaning busy, I'm doing stuff but it's not the right stuff, right? It's not moving the right stuff, the right amount of better and the right amount of time. You talk a little bit about this, too, like busy versus productive. I'd love to hear your philosophy around busy versus productive because I think it lines up a lot with how I think of it, even though I might call it productive versus progress. Catherine McCourt: Sure. Yeah. I always say don't be busy, be productive. And hustling doesn't necessarily mean busy. And so what I mean by that certainly is, there are a lot of people, departments, however you want to see it in businesses, it could be the real micro-level, meaning the individual or department itself being really busy. But unless they really and again, that word comes back to me right now about recalibration almost. I have a podcast as well just around. It's called Fearless Future, but it really is just helping people, live better, lead better and transform their life in some way to live with some more purpose, whether that's personal or professional, but anyway, we recalibrate. So the episode I just did was, are you surviving the week or driving the week? And surviving the week is when you're really busy. And it means that you're being really reactive to everything that's coming at you at once. So you have a full inbox, you know, maybe you're running to a ton of meetings, you have some reporting maybe that you need to get done. There's little things at your desk, people popping up at your desk, asking you questions. So you're really busy and your day might fly by and you're like, Oh, that was such a busy day. It must have been productive. But the truth is, did you get done what absolutely contributes to what you're supposed to deliver for the business? And that's where the differences is and that's where, I coach around a lot of how do you just recalibrate or how do you take that inventory if you want to call it in your day? So you should feel confident that you have at least 5 minutes. 5 minutes is not that long. You can get a lot done in 5 minutes, but even just 5 minutes, just take a moment in your day and recognize the things that you are working on and how are they actually contributing to what you're supposed to deliver to the business? Because there's always going to be a ton of things to get done and we can distract ourselves beyond belief as humans, right? We do. And feeling like we're busy, running here and there and everywhere and multitasking but the truth is that for likely not productive. So that little moment of your day, or do it once a week or once a day, however best suits you because I'm obviously a coach, so my whole way of life is coaching others to do what naturally innately works for them, but still getting a certain outcome that's desired for whether it's a business for themselves. But if they can take that moment to really just consider, am I just running ragged here? And part of part of being busy leads to that exhaustion, that stress, that overwhelm. Sometimes that starts leading you to burnout. So if you can catch it and start being more productive and know that the house or the business isn't going to burn down just because you leave some things for the next hour or the next day, you'll get a lot more done and you'll feel better. You can control and you're being proactive versus reactive. James Laws: It's so important, and for those listening, if you haven't created a daily practice of a check in, and again that may be the first moments of your day, before you open your email, before you look at your phone, before you do any of that stuff. Just take a step and think about what is most important for me to get done today? What are my priorities for today? Lots of smarter people, smarter than me, would say find your your three big rocks. The three things that if you get these things done today, you will have a day that's that feels like progress and then figure out how you protect that time. Get it done early before all the meetings start, before all the phone calls happen, before all of the team starts knocking on the door, whatever it may be. But figure out what that is. I am a huge proponent of stealing that time, making margin in our schedules, margin to think, margin to process. And so I would say if you're if you're a person right now, you're listening to this and you get to the end of your day and man and at the end of every day you feel depleted, you feel worn out, but you don't feel like you actually got anything done. It's time for you to take a part of your schedule book it on your calendar as soon as you can, an hour, a half an hour to look at what you do on a daily basis, write down all those tasks because it's probably time for you to say, What can I automate, what can I delegate? Or What can I just completely eliminate from my schedule, completely so I can do the things that are most important. So I love that approach of like just that check in, right? Just look at it. Think about your schedule and figure out how to decompress all that stuff. Catherine McCourt: Yeah. And the second part of that is really boundaries. I mean, we have to get better at setting boundaries. I always say boundaries will be your friend. When you were mentioning about getting to the end of your day and feeling just completely wiped, if you're setting the right boundaries to get the proper work done, to be productive and proactive, you will feel less wiped out. You might still be stressed because maybe your job is just stressful. It might be one of those positions that holds a lot of stress, but stress and burnout are very different, right? Stress is that you see the light at the end of the tunnel. It's usually a temporary overwhelm that's happening because of certain projects or certain things going on at work, whereas burnout, it's a prolonged state of you no longer can see the light at the end of the tunnel. You have constant anxiety or stress. It starts affecting you physically, emotionally, whereas stress is more manageable, even though it seems like it's fraught at sometimes. James Laws: I think you're absolutely right. If you get to the end of your day with stress, you usually, if you are in a career that is fulfilling you, if you have purpose, if these are the three questions, I think I said this in a previous episode, maybe even just the last episode. They run together. Sometimes it's hard to remember. But these are the three questions I always ask. And these actually get down to purpose, progress and passion. These are the motivational drivers I ask. Do I still love what I'm doing? Do I believe what I'm doing matters? And do I see the impact what I'm doing has? That speaks to do I still have passion for what I'm doing, do I still see the purpose of it and am I seeing progress? And at the end of the day you might still be stressed because you may like you said, you may just have a stressful job that carries a lot of weight and a lot of impact and you may still be stressed, but if you can still say yes to those questions, my guess is you still feel full, you're stressed, you feel pressure, but you feel full. If you get to the end of your day and you answer those questions, no, my guess is you feel depleted, you feel spent, and you don't just feel heavy, you feel crushed. And that's what burnout feels like. You feel like you're not getting anywhere and it's like, how am I going to even get up to face the next day? How am I going to do it? Stress and burnout very different. One absolutely needs to be taken care of. So one has to be taken care of as well, but you probably just need to go out and go for a walk and go run, spend time with your family. Stress I think it's easier to manage in most cases if you're aware of it. Burnout, it's time for a life change. You experienced it, right? And at some point your life has to change. It's not just I need to go for a walk and decompress. Something bigger has to change. Catherine McCourt: Yeah. And totally to your point, I mean, when I was in burnout, people would look at me and think, she's so physical, she runs like 40 K a week. She's doing half marathons. She'parties with the best of them. She lives this wild life, which is great but the truth is the fulfillment part is what I was missing. I just didn't know what I was working and living for for that period of time and it's a very hard place to be because you've allowed yourself to get so sucked into this burnout and emotionally, you're not balanced. So what happens is it's even that much harder to figure out what you need to do to get out of it. Luckily there is a lot of support out there now and people doing great work around burnout and around helping people get that recalibration in their life to a place where they can start seeking out more fulfillment and live with more purpose. James Laws: 100%. It does feel like burnout is seems like a hot topic today. I think certainly the pandemic has impacted a lot of people and perhaps accelerated some burnout that some people were unaware of and and opened their eyes perhaps to the organizations that they work in and the lack of respect that they're receiving from an organization that they are pouring into. There's a lot of reasons for burnout. What I wonder is, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this, when you're burned out, you have to deal with it, it's something you have to deal with it. But you talked a little bit about boundaries. I want to kind of talk back at that just a little bit more, because while we have to fix things when we're burned out, there's some change that happens. How do we, as leaders and individuals maybe prevent the burnout before it gets too bad? How do we protect ourselves so that we're doing those regular good habits that help us prevent the ultimate crash and burn before it gets there? Catherine McCourt: Sure. I think it's about checking in. From a leadership standpoint, it is about checking in with your team and leaders are very busy, but they have to be aware of what is happening on the ground with their team and on an individual scale. So looking at, Joe and Mary, and they might work very differently, but recognizing, is one of them working at a capacity that is sustainable versus one that's not. Maybe that's just comparing to people, because sometimes you have to look at their achievements and are they achieving similar results? Are they achieving even close to the same results? And what might be those differences? So I think from a leadership standpoint, you really need to check in with your team, understand, what is on the ground for them, how it is that they're approaching their work. It's usually pretty obvious when you start recognizing burnout. But if you want to catch it before that, it is about understanding how your team is working. Why does one person seem like they're happy, I'll say 100% of the time, even though we know that's not necessarily always possible. But who's coming in to work really happy and jazzed on things and another one who's still performing but maybe lacks that luster. Taking recognition of that and actually pulling your team member aside and having a conversation about where they're at and are there external things creating this or is it the job? Because what you can do is hopefully catch it before it turns into burnout and help them find new and better ways to work moving forward. So, is that setting boundaries or is that getting them to recognize when they're being reactive versus proactive in their job? If you are working from a proactive state, usually things feel better, you feel more productive, you feel happier, you feel in control, essentially. And if you're constantly in an reactive mode, that is not sustainable. So the reactiveness creates that misery at work. People don't feel fulfilled. They feel like they're just being pulled in all directions. They're not recognized for the work that they're doing, but damn, they're working hard. So, as a leader if you could put a a view on that for your team, like I said, if you need to pull someone aside during that week or month or quarter or whatever that may be, then do that because they will probably thank you one day for helping them get out of that or not even venture into that maybe is the the key. James Laws: This is why I constantly encourage, we said it on the show and we say it in our articles on the website. This is why one on ones are so important, regular quick check in one on ones with your team, because that is an opportunity for you as a leader to perhaps find and see some red flags of burnout, see some things that perhaps aren't connecting by having those real conversations, not about the work, not about projects and tasks that you check out, but just about their lives, about what their goals are and how they're feeling and what's going on. And this is an important check in because, you want to check in as you're having these conversations because there is things that happen in the world around us and they impact everyone on your team in different ways. So during the pandemic, everyone was being impacted by that in some way. Either we had a loved one who was home that we were we were taking care of or we're homeschooling our kids because the schools were shut down. There's all kinds of reasons why they may be feeling better. As you said, it may not even be about the job. It may not be the job at all. They may be their personal life is burning them out, but you as a leader can help them in their professional life, kind of get a handle of it that they can transfer that piece to their personal life as well. So there's some things that, you know, it's a one on ones or getting feedback, feedback surveys are another way you can do that. Nice, anonymous ways for people to say this is how I'm feeling. It may not tell you about the individual, but I'll tell you about the organization and as an aggregate, how things are going and something that we do in our checkups, when we do our kind of evaluations and reviews every quarter is we ask those three questions that I just talked about. Do you love the work? Do you love what you do? Do you believe what you do matters and do you see the impact that it has? And we let them say how they feel and that gives us a little bit of an indication of whether somebody is headed in one direction or the other. And what we're looking at is the trend, right? Somebody may be super fulfilled, one review and not the next and worse the next. And you're looking for that trend. You want to follow that and say, all right, we need to course correct. Catherine, thank you so much for being on the show. I want to give you the last word. How can people get in contact with you if they want to learn more about what you offer in your coaching? How can they do that? Catherine McCourt: Sure. I have a website it's CatherineMcCourt.com, which I'm sure James you'll put on on the show notes so people can spell it and I usually hang out on Instagram so I have two Instagrams. One is my podcast Instagram. So it's @fearless.future and then my personal Instagram level as a personal/coaching is @catherinelmccourt. So @catherinelmccourt on Instagram. James Laws: And you are correct, we will put all those links in the show notes. And everyone, please take a time to check out the podcast. I will be doing so as well. Catherine, thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a pleasure to have this conversation with you. Catherine McCourt: Yeah, thank you so much, James. I love what you do.Podcast is a really awesome topic and one that I obviously resonate well with, so I appreciate being on the show. Thank you so much. James Laws: Thank you. Catherine was an extremely genuine guest and an absolute pleasure to have on the show. I hope you enjoyed it. Everything that we mentioned, including a full transcript of the show, is available over on our website and you can access at any time by visiting leadingtofulfillment.com/022. Also on that website you can subscribe to our newsletter there. We'll let you know about when those new episodes drop as well as the new original and curated content on leadership, managing teams and finding fulfillment. It's a great newsletter. I hope you'll subscribe. As we wrap up this episode, I'd like to help you reframe how you think about purpose just a little. Every role, no matter where it exists in the company hierarchy, has a purpose. As an employee, it's a huge missed opportunity to wait for your dream job to have purpose. Think of the years of misery you'll have to endure the entire time, believing that your purpose awaits somewhere in the future. Instead, encourage everyone, leaders and team members to reframe their idea of purpose and find it now. Jake and Ashley are administrative professionals at the same company. They both aspire to be managers. They need to have a few years of experience, though first, to accomplish that. Jake is frustrated by his position. He thinks his talents are being wasted and that his admin duties don't make a big difference to the company. He does his job well. Every report project and task feels like a slog. The days go by slowly and he often watches the clock waiting to go home. Jake is counting the days until his promised and promoted to a new, more important role. Ashley initially feels the same as Jake. She's more people oriented than task oriented. Administrative duties are her passion, but early on she decides she wants to enjoy her work, so she thinks about her purpose. When compiling a report starts to get tedious, Ashley thinks about all the teammates who rely on that report to do their jobs well. By reframing her thoughts, Ashley realizes her job is people oriented after all, and she has purpose. Which person do you think is happier, healthier and a greater asset to their team? Who feels more fulfilled at the end of each day? As a leader, you can help your team feel a sense of purpose by offering clarity. How does their role task or project relate to your organization's mission? No one wants to do work for the sake of work. Providing the bigger picture makes a huge difference. Thanks for listening and I hope you'll join me in the next episode. And until then, may your businesses be successful as you lead your teams to fulfillment.

The work culture has the power to enable or destroy individuals. Cultivating an environment where everyone is respected and valued, resulting in higher employee retention rates and positive business outcomes can be more challenging than it seems. We Discuss how to create a forward thinking, flexible and diverse workplace that promotes growth for everyone involved. In this episode we discuss… The moving target of fulfillmentHow to increase diversity in the hiring processEvolving as a work culture for the betterment of allMindfulness and meditation for becoming a better leader About Our Guest JJ DiGeronimo shares leadership and inclusion strategies to retain, develop and advance professional women. Her work is featured in many publications, including Forbes, The Wall Street Journal, and Thrive Global. JJ includes these experiences along with hours of research in her award-winning book "Accelerate Your Impact," which complements her first award-winning book, "The Working Woman's GPS." In addition to her books and keynotes, JJ is a featured columnist and host of the popular podcast – Career Strategies for Women that Work. Resources Mentioned on the Show https://jjdigeronimo.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jjdigeronimo/https://www.youtube.com/user/jjdigeronimohttps://www.espeakers.com/marketplace/profile/23273?btsc=1https://www.facebook.com/JJDiGeronimoOfficial The Transcript JJ DiGeronim: We are conditioned to look outward or look reflect on the past that we don't often really appreciate, accept or drop into the moment that we're in. And I didn't realize that initially, and it wasn't in my tech career that I was able to give myself that space. I guess I wasn't ready yet, but when I moved to entrepreneurship, that's when kind of my hit my tower card where everything around me started to crumble because I was so unsettled on the inside. And I think for many leaders, you're never going to be able to lead others until you lead yourself. And I think for many of us, we think leadership is not for many of us. But in many situations, leaders are often seen as a power position, which is kind of backwards because leadership is really in and in an empowering position, empowering others. But if you don't feel whole yourself, it's very difficult to empower others because often times you haven't really been able to authentically empower yourself. James Laws: Welcome to another episode of the Leading to Fulfillment podcast, where everything we talk about is meant to encourage people first. Leaders empower individuals to find fulfillment and to help your organizations become places people love to work. I'm your host, James Laws, and I have a great show in store for you. My guest for this episode is JJ DiGeronim. JJ shares leadership and inclusion strategies to retain, develop and advance professional women. Her work is featured in many publications, including Forbes, The Wall Street Journal and Thrive Global. She includes these experiences along with her hours of research and her award winning book, Accelerate Your Impact, which complements her first award winning book, The Working Woman's GPS and a decent in addition to her books and keynotes, JJ is a featured columnist and host of the popular podcast Career Strategies for Women that Work. My conversation with JJ we discuss the moving target of fulfillment, how to increase diversity in the hiring process, evolving as a work culture for the betterment of all, and mindfulness and meditation for becoming a better leader. But before we get into all of that, I want to invite you to subscribe and give leading to the Leading to Fulfillment podcast to review with your favorite podcast tool. We're over on Apple, Google, Podcasts, Spotify, and you can even watch us over on YouTube. And if we are in the place that you like to listen to podcast, please let me know and I will make sure to fix that. As a bonus, you can head on over to ciircles.com that circles with two eyes and I and subscribe over to our newsletter. There we let you know when new episodes drop as well as send you original and curated content on leadership, managing teams and fulfillment. Now that we have all that business out of the way, let's jump into my conversation with JJ Geronimo. JJ Thank you so much for being on the Leading Fulfillment podcast today. I really appreciate you taking the time. JJ DiGeronim: I'm thrilled to be here, James. James Laws: So to kind of get this started so everyone who knows who's listened to this show recognizes right, that a lot of what we're doing on this podcast is trying to become better leaders. We're trying to help leaders discover what it means to be a people first leader, put their team, sometimes even not just before themselves, but sometimes before their organizations. And thinking about like, how do we actually take care of our company by taking care of our team? And I know that's been a lot in your journey, but to kind of kick it off and so everybody kind of gets to know who you are. Could you just take a moment to introduce yourself? JJ DiGeronim: Sure. Sure. So I've been in the tech industry most of my career, and it wasn't until I was close to 40 that I started building some women's groups, working on some DNI initiatives, which really led me to collecting stories of all the things that people use to keep themselves energized, focused and aligned to their inner compass. And that is really what had catapulted me into writing books, is to really share those stories with other professionals and especially professional women. And through that work, I started learning more and more about their challenges, their desires, their goals. And women would come to me and say, How do I get promoted? How do I get on a board? Where is the best place to find a sponsor? And so I collected all of these questions throughout my travels, throughout my women's groups and conversations, and that really was the catalyst for my second book, Accelerate Your Impact. And now with even further work and really developing the leader within is really the catalyst for what I'm putting together for my third book. James Laws: I love it. So we know that, you know, the title of the podcast is Leading to Fulfillment, and I feel like we should probably start there. When you think about fulfillment, you know, we've all been on an airplane. Most of us anyway have been on airplane. And I've heard the instructions. Right, especially about the oxygen mask. You have to take care of yourself before you take care of someone seated next to you. And in fulfillment, I think in a lot of ways this works the same way as a leader. If you aren't fulfilled, if you haven't discovered your path towards fulfillment, it's going to be very hard for you to help your team and the people around you also find fulfillment. So let's start there. How do you for your self interpret fulfillment? JJ DiGeronim: Well, that's a great question. And I would have to say that my answer would have been very different. A decade ago because I didn't really understand the dynamics of our ego and how that plays into our self-doubts and distracts us from our self-worth. And so if I answered the question a decade ago, I would say things like related to things that I did, accolades I received positions I landed. But now that I'm in the work and I'm working from the inside out, I really realized that fulfillment and leadership actually starts within. As you talk about in many, many episodes. But it's more than just like, how do I feel inside? It's really about digging into the stories, the feelings and the energies that are really impacting not only how you feel, but how you make decisions. And I think for many of us, we don't even know how to fulfill ourselves because we're often distracted by these external metrics that we are told in an early age define our self-worth and how much we like ourselves. James Laws: Wow. So, you know, there's a lot to kind of unpack there. And I'd love to hear about a little bit of this journey. You talk about like how you would answer this ten years ago, and I can I can reflect that back to you. I think that's very true. Right. Like the way I saw the world, even 20, ten years ago, 20 years ago, is vastly different than how I see it today. I it's it's amazing for me to even look back and think about the things that I believed about myself, about the world, how different they are today. And, and the world, strangely, hasn't changed all that much, although I think to me it feels like it has. It's I've changed. My positions have changed. My thoughts have changed. Tell me a little bit about this journey, this this journey of ten years where the motivation has gone less outward and gone more inward. JJ DiGeronim: So I would have to say that I was really that my journey accelerated once I decided to pursue entrepreneurship. Now this I love my job. I love technology. I love the people I work for. But my inner calling was so strong that I felt like I had to really pursue my life's work, which is much of what I'm doing around women, and especially women in the workplace. And in leaving many of the things that we define ourselves by, which is our role, our salary, you know, who we hang out with, like the companies we work for. When you strip all of those things away, there are many books out there that talk about the nakedness of how you feel when you don't have these external metrics to define not only yourself, but how successful you think you are. And for many entrepreneurs that have jumped into their own space, their own roles, it's a daunting jump. You think you're going to do it for a bigger purpose and more meaning and all of these things. But in the reality, you have to really work from the inside out because you encounter money issues, self-doubt, relationships, situations that go well beyond the work that you're doing. And I think for many of us, we don't often have to dig through that crap if you have all of these barriers of protection around you. James Laws: Interesting. I you know, you talk about a lot of the fulfillment that you found in in your current work, right. Which is centered around a lot of like women in the workplace. And I also run a tech company. You've have a huge history, a much longer history in tech than I do. And and I think about when I look at how I lead and and thinking about what my team needs, I realize, right. Like I a big part of that is me taking a step back and listening to my team and learning from them, learning who they are and what makes them up. And I'm ashamed to admit it. Our team is not as diverse as we want it to be, although we have been working really hard on that. And that has been a huge priority because like all businesses, I think I've said this before in another episode, like like a lot of businesses when you start out, it's entrepreneurship and you get that first hiring you, you hire in a, in a small like echo chamber, a small circle. And so they end up being a lot of people that look like you because they're the people you hang out with on a regular basis. And now if you have a very diverse, small echo chamber, that's awesome. And you're probably better for it. But if you're not and you didn't have that, your company starts to look pretty monotone, pretty flat, and it's all the same. And so over the years we've recognized that we've done that and we've needed to change that. And we didn't do it intentionally. But it does intentions doesn't matter. By accident, we became this kind of monoculture and so we started to work on that. So years ago, started to work on this and trying to change and flip that script and kind of say like, we don't want to be that way. We know that we would be better if we were more diverse. I wonder, as we're actually in the process of hiring, as I am recording this, maybe not when this goes live, but as I'm recording this, we're actually in the in the throes of hiring a leadership position within our organization. And we want to, especially because it's a leadership position, want to open that up to a more diverse, a diverse pool of people and hopefully change the dynamic of our own organization. What advice would you give to someone like myself who's maybe right in the midst of the hiring process and trying to say, Hey, how do I bring in more women, more people of color, more whatever to to change the dynamic of their organization? JJ DiGeronim: Yes. Yes. Well, I love just your viewpoint, the honesty and authenticity of what you've gone through. And oftentimes you're hiring because you just have to get the work done and you're going to leverage people you know, that know people that are going to get it done. You're not necessarily even concerned color or what shape or what size or what they do. You just have to get the work done. And I know everyone that I've worked with, including myself, have been in that a different at different times in my career. But as you pursue more diverse talent, often you can tap on people in your network that hang out with those people that know those people. So whether it's people on your board, people in your partner community, or people that you work with, letting them know you're putting this role out there and that you're really looking to get diverse thoughts at the table. So it's one thing to hire diverse people, but really encompassing or empowering diverse thought is critical. Second, you really need to look at your job description and see what the National Center for Women in Technology, a nonprofit funded by many government grants and other funding sources. They do a lot of work for women in tech and women in STEM and really talk through and give you strategies and toolkits and check list and how to more effectively not only find hire but retain diverse talent. And they will tell you that JavaScript engines of the links are critical. So not only do you have to look at all the language you use in the job description, but also the like, most women often want to be closer to the 100% mark when applying for a job. Men feel comfortable around 60%. So if you have a list of 20 requirements, you're probably going to get most of them. Just the way it goes. So what I always say is really create your job description with the summary must have 5 to 7, must haves 3 to 5. If you have done this or still were interested in speaking with you and you know, kind of things, that would be nice to have after that. So making it more inviting, I think, and it's not because women can't do the work, but oftentimes they have to shift their entire life to change that role. So it's not just about changing their job. They're changing their life. And many women have a lot of built up capital in their existing companies that allow them to freely move to do the other things that are required in their lives. So that's a lot to give up. So it has to be really a good reason to leave. And, you know, diverse men don't always have the same challenges. I often focus on women, but it is good to think about how you are writing the job descriptions, what network you're using, and what is critical to getting the job done. James Laws: Now. Great advice. Shout out to our to my friends over underrepresented in tech they are helping us actually go through and make sure that we are presenting not a fake image but a true image of what we actually want to be and what we strive to be and what our values are and to reach out to some, to a larger variety of people for that purpose. I love I love what you said. You know, it's funny, I think a lot about the words that we use when we write a job description and trying to hone that in and make sure that it's it is inclusive and clear and succinct and work on doing that. I never thought about, though, you know, necessarily the length of how many of the how many of these responsibilities are or is this a three page job description or a one page job description, which is a very different take than I have heard now when hiring. That's one thing. It's one thing to say, all right, we're going to put out the best job description we can possibly put out. We're going to, you know, put out the, you know, who we really are. But also be honest with what we are trying to accomplish and who we are trying to become. Because to me, that is that is perhaps one of the most important part of hiring is I don't hire to find culture fit. I hire to find culture growth. I'm trying to grow as a culture and not just stay the way we are. I love the way we are, but I still think we can be better. And so I think I diverse workforce helps us be better versions of ourselves. Now the question I have and it's I'll, I'll throw this to you specifically in, in what your focus is, which is on women, it's one thing to put out the application to get the job description, to get the diverse applicants in. It's another thing that once they're in your organization to be a place that is safe and to be a place that is a place where everyone can thrive. What do you find the struggles are for women in organizations in the workplace that they're dealing with? JJ DiGeronim: Well, generally, when you have then a culture of similar people, it's hard because you don't even realize the dynamics that you've been creating for the culture in which you exist. And so there's many cultures I've been to that their favorite thing to do is to throw darts and drink beer, and they do it every Thursday night and it is a huge piece of their culture. And so I think sometimes just sort of thinking about what have you been doing for a long time? What defines your culture, what will be engaging or a way to engage people in new ways? So maybe you can still keep doing that, but maybe don't do it every Thursday. Or maybe you do something on Tuesdays or maybe do something in the mornings. It doesn't really matter. I just think like kind of what got you there might not get you where you want to go next. And just thinking about the behaviors, mannerisms, connections, the way you interact, the way you get together, the way you have fun together, you know, what does that look like? And is that such a close knit group of people? Is there room for other people to feel like they can be part of it? James Laws: No, that's great advice. You know, although I feel a little exposed because four years ago you just described kind of a regular afternoon at the company when we were co-located, it was darts and beer. Like that was a very common thing that happened. And I as we've tried to change, I've noticed that I myself have even become more uncomfortable with you know, I think what happens a lot in tech is this kind of bro culture. And what has what I noticed was we just came back from our annual retreat. We had just gone distribute it fully in 2019 and COVID happened and we didn't end up having our retreat and had been a couple of years. We finally got to the point where we felt safe enough to throw our company retreat. We got it together and we hired someone to cater our meals and come in and a chef and got a little more than we bargained for. This this chef brought a sound system and was going to entertain and do all this stuff. We just thought they were bringing food, but I notice that he that this particular individual was making jokes that were very bro culture, very misogynistic, very just uncomfortable. And they were making me uncomfortable. And the rest I think the rest of the team just kind of like laughed it off and was fine, but I feel very uncomfortable by it. And I was and I realize is because I feel like that's what we were and that's not who we are and who we were trying to be. But I also looked if if I were this caterer coming into this company and I saw the team, we we were definitely heavy on guys over women. And so, yeah, I, he, he probably thought he was pandering to the crowd, although he wasn't. And so it was a very uncomfortable situation. And I wonder what are some practices other than, yes, we have to think differently, but what are some actual or practical like if somebody's listening today and they're like, Yeah, I found myself stuck in this culture. I have also found myself trapped in a culture that is perhaps set in their ways. It's the way we've always done it. But the team is changing, the dynamics are changing, the workforce is changing. And so because of that, we have to change and adapt with it. What are some practical, maybe actionable things you might encourage a business leader to consider in their organizations? JJ DiGeronim: Well, first, I just want to really compliment you on your evolution, because I really think that leaders and leadership is about empowering the people around you. That is what leadership is. And so the fact that you even recognize that, hey, this doesn't feel so good anymore means you've evolved. And it's likely that the people on your team are evolving with you too, even if it might not be as evident as it may look from the outside. So that's great news. I think the other thing is just, you know, the idea of these events and activities is to give some camaraderie, to enhance the culture and allow people to feel comfortable to work together in good and bad times. And so I think just assessing kind of is it working? Is what you're doing working? Are some people just traditionally not showing up?Are there some groups, you know, do you have clicks either subgroups? Are there ways that you can start to break this up a little bit by introducing new ways of getting together? You know, if everyone plays bocce ball or everybody eats these like we I used to join a company where eating the super duper hamburger was like the induction, you know? And it was great initially, but it didn't work for that long after we got about 50 people and it's just kind of like a SAS thing and looking to see because ideally as a leader you're trying to get the most out of the people you've hired and in a way that makes sense and that they're excited about too. And I think in tech it's hard sometimes to be a leader because the pace is ridiculous and everything is like A-plus. Plus, in regards to when it needs to get done, like this is has to be done like right now, this minute, every minute. And it's hard to lead when everything has the same priority. And so the leadership role in these tech companies is really deciding what is. Yes. Right now, because there's not as much staff, there's not as many people leading in these companies and wanting to join these companies. And you can't burn your staff and team out. You just can't. So as a leader deciding what to focus on, when is one of your most instrumental roles? James Laws: That is something that I had been feeling over the last few years, especially the pressure and the energy rate of how fast we feel like we always have to go and how I could see it burning out myself and my team members. And we one of the things that we started to do really is say, why? Why do we have to go so fast? What are our goals? What is success look for like for us? And if we redefine success, can we also redefine the culture of how we work? So to those listening, if you are in the tech business and maybe you feel you're caught in that trap of like it's 120 miles per hour all the time, everything is important, everything is urgent, everything's got to get done. I would really encourage you to ask why. Like why? Because I what I started to realize now is our now if you if you would actually look at our calendar for our year, we probably spend 30 to 40% of that off not on project, not on work, not doing, you know, what we call intermissions. It's it's breaks, it's breathing time. It's just slow down. Like we're not in that big of a hurry, honestly, because when ultimately what my goal is right is that the people that work for me continue to be able to work for me and have fulfilling lives both in their work and in their personal lives and in their families and all the things that they choose to do. So I want all of that to be integrated together as much as possible. And I know that working them to the bone doesn't solve that problem for anyone, and it doesn't actually make it. It doesn't actually guarantee your success either. What does guarantee your success, though, is a group of people who love the company, who love what they do, believe it matters, and see the impact that their work has, and know that when they leave, at the end of the day, they're not depleted, but they're filled and they're excited to spend time doing other things and know that they will have the energy to come back to work the next day. And that's Dred doing it. So my hope, my whole mission is to get rid of case of the Mondays and excited about the week and and that those things are great. I mean they're they're right but you should be able to have a great weekend on Wednesday if that's what you need to rejuvenate you and get you excited about your work. I want to I want to shift I want to come back to that fulfillment conversation because you have a coaching course that you release, that you've released called The Ten Lessons I Gain from My Mindfulness. And I love the concept of mindfulness. I love the idea of slowing down. That's kind this is my rough segway, our whole our whole schedule. I told everyone in my company, I've said this on the podcast a number of times, every single person that we hire is paid to think they're not just paid to do stuff, they're paid to think. And if they're not thinking, then we're not getting the most that we can for the organization and for the health of the company. But part of that thinking is slowing down and spending time inside and being mindful and being present. And I want to hear a little bit about your journey towards mindfulness. JJ DiGeronim: Well, first, I just want to comment that I don't think you'll have any problem finding people to join your team. You are amazing in the way that you approach your company, how you feel about your employees, the culture you're creating to really fuel the people that make your business possible. And I know this is what people are looking for. They don't want to be a number. They don't want to be executing every single day. And 16 things they want meaning. They want purpose, they want alignment and they want to do good work. And I feel like probably this podcast has been very helpful, but the other things you're doing have really round you out as a leader that will attract the energy of the people that will appreciate what you're creating. So congratulations there for sure. James Laws: I appreciate that. JJ DiGeronim: You know, mindfulness is part of that, too. It's about giving yourself space to recognize what your thoughts are. And I think for many of us, when we are so busy doing all the time, we can easily live in the future of what we need to get done or reflect on the past of what has already happened. And for many of us, we are very rarely in the present moment. And the present moment is where often you experience more joy and more excitement about life because you're actually in the moments you're creating. But unfortunately, the way society has molded us, we are so busy trying to get there wherever there may be, that we never really have the space, as you mentioned, to appreciate where we are right now. And everything that's happening isn't happening in the moment you're in. That's it. That's what life is about. But we are conditioned to look outward or look reflect on the past that we don't often really appreciate, accept or drop into the moment that we're in. And I didn't realize that initially, and it wasn't in my tech career that I was able to give myself that space. I guess I wasn't ready yet, but when I moved to entrepreneurship, that's one kind of my hit my tower card where everything around me started to crumble because I was so unsettled on the inside. And I think for many leaders, you're never going to be able to lead others until you lead yourself. And I think for many of us, we think leadership is not for many of us. But in many situations, leaders are often seen as a power position, which is kind of backwards because leadership is really in and in an empowering position, empowering others. But if you don't feel whole yourself, it's very difficult to empower others because oftentimes you haven't really been able to authentically empower yourself. And so mindfulness is a tool that really gives you the ability to see what you say to yourself all the time where you spend your time. Is it in the past? Is it in the future? What are you saying to yourself on a regular basis, and are you able to really center into where you are right now? Because when you really teach yourself to do that, you have a lot more appreciation for not only who you are, but who other people are too. James Laws: One of the practices that I have over the years slowly started to integrate more into my life is this idea of meditation and and mindfulness meditation and this idea of just being present in the moment and letting the thoughts kind of calm, note them, let them pass through and not that worry about what it is or what it isn't. And just it is like it just is and just be in that moment. And I found that for me as a as a business leader and as somebody honestly who is a idea person who generates a lot of ideas sometimes to the to the detriment of my company and my team generates a lot of ideas that that that time of mindfulness, that time of just the pause or what I like to call my scheduled boredom, where I just I schedule it to do nothing. I have nothing to do. There's nothing to do but sit and just be in. That moment is a huge it's a huge moment of clarity where things start to untangle themselves because there is no agenda, there is no output that I'm seeking from it. And sometimes when you let go of the need for the output, the need for the outcome or the objective, things start to unravel a little bit better and and get cleaner and better understood. What are some of your recommendations to leaders listening who are perhaps looking to start a mindfulness practice of their own and or never maybe are just hearing about it? I'm like, I don't even know what this mindfulness is. How would somebody get started doing something like this? JJ DiGeronim: Yeah, I mean, there's usually a compelling event. You're tired or exhausted, you're over work, you're depleted, you're depressed. I mean, something is happening and you're like, This is not working for me. Mindfulness, designed by Jon Kabat-Zinn, is really just being mindful of your thoughts. What are you telling yourself all the time? When you get a new idea, when you finish your project, you start something new. What are you saying to yourself on a regular basis? I believe mindfulness is a critical piece of meditation because I did not realize that when you meditate, you're still going to have thoughts. Those thoughts don't just all disappear because you're meditating. And when you're meditating, you're really not creating lists of things you should be doing. The idea is, is that you're mindful of the thoughts that pass, but as soon as we come in, just saying, I see you and letting them pass by, if you hold on to any one thought and then start dissecting it, designing it, organizing it, listing it, you're not meditating, you're planning your brainstorming, you're working. And so I think really recognizing that meditation is a practice to not hold on to any one thought. And for me, that was a lesson that took me years to learn because I had been molded to believe that my self worth came based on my output, my actions, the things I got done. And when I tried to start meditation, I started thinking. I started doing, I started creating, which was gone, which is how I was essentially taught to be successful and like myself. And so I had to unravel all of that mind chatter and self-defined stories to really allow myself the space to be quiet, to be bored, to let the ideas come and go. And I think that that is a big exercise of self compassion and self love that takes years to get to. James Laws: Absolutely. And I'm not even close. But I would say to those listening, it's also a great tool. Right. Like I agree. Right. There is a separation of spending time in meditation and not holding on to the thought and not turning it into a work session like an ideation session. But it's also a great precursor into an edition session. If youre wanting to solve a problem, mindfulness and meditation at the beginning of that process can be a great way to prepare yourself for great and more meaningful and more clarity in those ideas as you start to develop that. Would you agree with that? JJ DiGeronim: Well, let me just expand on why you want to do this. And to your point that you've already touched on already is you're creating space for the ideas to flow. And I think my biggest awakening is that I don't have to do it alone. I don't have to figure everything out by myself, by creating space, allows for channels, for things, for intuition, ideas, innovation to come through me. And I think that is really the gift that comes out of it is now you are a channel to bring things in that you might not think of on your own. James Laws: That's yeah, absolutely. I know we're a little crunched for time. And so I want to and I feel like we could talk for hours about a whole number of issues. So I hope you'll agree to come back on the show as a follow up in the future. But for those who really enjoyed what you had to say and want to learn more about you and find you and maybe you perhaps a little bit more about your course, I want to give the final word. JJ DiGeronim: Oh, thank you so much. Well, I'm easy to find. I'm JJ DeGeronimo. LinkedIn is obviously my favorite platform, but you can also find me on my website. Most of the resources that are there and most of them are free. So if you're interested in picking up any of those, they are available to you. And if you're looking to inspire your women's groups or ERG groups, I spend a lot of time on the roads with those groups, really helping them accelerate their impact in their desires. So I look forward to joining many more as we continue to come out of the lockdown. James Laws: Absolutely. Well, we're going to put links to everything in the show notes so that everybody can get in touch with you. JJ, thank you so much for being on the show today and just giving us even a snippet of some of the wealth of experience that you've had on your journey. And again, I hope you'll join us in the future. JJ DiGeronim: Oh, thank you so much. This was really enjoyable. Thanks for the time and the invite. James Laws: Bye bye. What a fantastic conversation and a big thank you to JJ DeGeronimo for joining me on this episode. Everything we mentioned, including a full transcript of the show, is available over on our website and you can access at any time by visiting. Leadingtofulfillment.com/021. I want to share how we build the kind of company people love to work for. At my company Saturday Drive. I hope these strategies will be useful to some of you in your current and future endeavors. You know, nothing would make me happier than knowing that Saturday Drive is a catalyst for the creation of more people forward fulfilling companies. So let's talk about them. We defined core values with our team in mind. We prioritize fulfillment and we focused on progress over productive or activity. We rejected work life balance in favor of work life integration, and we offered benefits that actually benefit our team. So what kind of leader do you want to be? Do you want to lead a team that shows up out of obligation, ready to slog through the day and simply tolerate their jobs? I can't think of anything worse. You want a team fueled by passion. A team that finds their work fulfilling and strives for progress. A team that loves the work that they do and the company that they do it for. Not only is that a huge benefit for them, but it also makes your company better as a whole. You get back what you give. This is true in every area of life, but business leaders tend to forget it. They become takers, draining their employees dry without giving back. Then they wonder why the work is subpar or why they keep losing great people. I want to challenge you to give, give your employees the tools and guidance they need to flourish and find fulfillment. When you do, you'll have built the kind of company where people love to work. Thanks for listening and I hope you'll join me on the next episode. And until then, may your businesses be successful as you lead your teams to fulfillment.

Are you a trusted leader? If not, why? And what can be done to restore trust in an organization When trust is lost, it can be difficult to get it back. But with the right leadership and commitment in place, an organization can restore trust and build sustainable organizational health. In this episode we discuss… The role and impact of trusted leaders within an organizationHow we asses our current leaders to determine their trust levelHow to develop trust and trusted leaders in your organizationDr. Travis's TrustED frameworkThe people-first model of organizational health About Our Guest Dr. Travis is the founder of TrustED, a framework for business, organization, and school improvement focused on developing trusted leaders. In addition, he is an Executive Consultant with the Global School Consulting Group, an Adjunct Professor for the International Graduate Program of Educators for the State University of New York College at Buffalo, and an experienced teacher and school administrator, currently serving as the Superintendent of the Village Christian Academy in Fayetteville, NC. Dr. Travis is also the author of the award-winning book "TrustED: The Bridge to School Improvement" Resources Mentioned on the Show The Transcript Dr. Toby Travis: The number one indicator of successful organizations is trusted leadership. And it doesn't seem to matter how we measure success or how we define success rather. So in the academic world, right, if we look at student achievement levels in the schools where we have the highest levels of student achievement, we have a direct correlation to the highest levels of trusted leadership at the school. When we look at retention rates of employees, right and this is across the board, education sector, corporate sector manufacturing, the number one indicator of a highest levels of retention, trusted employers. James Laws: Welcome to another episode of the leading to fulfilment podcast where everything we talk about is meant to encourage people first leaders empower individuals to achieve fulfillment and to help your organizations become places people love to work. I'm your host James Laws and I have a terrific show in store for you my guest. This episode is Dr. Toby Travis. Dr. Travis is the founder of the TrustED, a framework for business organization and school improvement focused on developing trusted leaders. In addition, he's an executive consultant with the Global School Consulting Group and Adjunct Professor for the International Graduate Program of Educators for the State University of New York College at Buffalo, and an experienced teacher and School Administrator currently serving as a Superintendent of the Village Christian Academy in Fayetteville, North Carolina. Dr. Travis is also the author of the award winning book TrustED: The Bridge to School Improvement. In my conversation with Dr. Travis we discuss the role and impact of trusted leaders within an organization, how we assess our current leaders to determine their trust level, how to develop trust, and trusted leaders in your organization. Dr. Travis is trusted framework and the people first model of organizational health, we cover a lot. But before we get into all of that, I want to invite you to subscribe to the leading fulfilment podcast in your favorite podcast tool. We're on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or you can watch us over on YouTube. Now. Let's jump into my conversation with Dr. Toby Travis. Dr. Travis, thank you so much for joining me on the leading to fulfillment podcast. James Laws: Thank you, James, great to be here. I am really, really excited about this conversation. Because one of the things that you talk about a lot seems to be kind of your operating thesis is on this idea and this concept of trust. And I coming from my thesis of trying to help my team and help other businesses become places people want to work and love to work because they have people first leaders who are focused on their fulfillment. I think there's definitely a relationship between this idea of a trusted leader and a people first leader. And so to kind of get us started just a little bit, I wonder, based on your experience and education based on your research on the the concept in the ideas of trust. And your that background? How do you approach this topic of fulfillment? Dr. Toby Travis: Well, I've got a data guy here and maybe even a bit of a data geek. I'm a big believer in let's let's look at the numbers. Let's look at the research, let's make our decisions on what we invest in as far as professional development and organizational improvement. Let's take a look at the numbers. And so you start looking at the data. And what you find. And as you know, my background and interest in this area really came out of Workiva rather toxic environment and try to figure that having the opportunity to be in leadership of that organization. It's like okay, what do we do about this? And what I have learned through sitting on the shoulders of giants who have done research certainly before me, and then what was affirmed and confirmed in the work that I've done is we've discovered that the number one and this is the research, the number one indicator of successful organizations is trusted leadership. And it doesn't seem to matter how we measure success or how we define success rather. So in the academic world, right? If we look at student achievement levels in the schools, where we have the highest levels of student achievement, we have a direct correlation to the highest levels of trusted leadership at the school. When we look at retention rates of employees, right and this is across the board, education sector, corporate sector manufacturing, the number one indicator of the highest levels of retention, trusted employers, you know, we've seen the opposite as well for years so the number one reason people leave it organization is they don't feel supported by their supervisor or their leader. And so we see the opposite effects as well. But again, back to the primary world that I work in the education sector, we see student achievement levels, we see teacher and teacher student retention in the private sector, we see community involvement, how do you ensure higher levels of community engagement and support? Focus on developing high levels of trusted leaders? financial bottom line, and here, you know, we look at small business model, where do we see businesses exceeding the best? It's at those businesses that understand the importance of that key relationship between the owner or the leader, and the employees. And when they get that, right. It's almost magic changes. It's like all these other good things start happening, we see the highest levels of innovation happening. When people are working environment, they feel like they're okay to make a mistake. My boss, trust me, even if I blow it, those people invest themselves deeper, and we see higher levels of innovation, creativity, problem solving, all of those indicators go up remarkably, and one last piece of data authorized to just it's kind of a winter appetite kind of thing. There was a study in 2018. On the return on investment, when businesses invest in the development of trusted relationships between admin and employees, they actually came up with $1 amount. It actually so for every dollar a company spends on professional development of this type, there is a one to $7 return. Wow. Yeah, so the point is, businesses operate better. It costs less money to actually operate an organization where there's high levels of trust. James Laws: You know, and what you say and listening to the numbers, you know, it sounds obvious to say, right, that businesses and organizations with trusted leaders are going to do better than organizations without trusted leaders. And yet, and yet, we see it on the news headlines, and we see it all over the place, that many organizations are being run by or have within their organizations, leaders who lack have lacked the trust of their teams. I think that honestly, I think this is a big reason for the great resignation, right? And what you're seeing is a bunch of people who say, we don't trust you anymore. Like we were in the middle of a financial, like individuals in a financial crisis. And you're worried about whether or not we're in an office or not, and you're laying people off, even though businesses are hitting sometimes record numbers and just laying people off. The corporations and the leaders of these corporations have lost trust. And yeah, it seems like untrustworthy leaders still seem to get promoted inside of these corporations, because of I mean, I guess the bottom line and being able to make the margins make sense for the stakeholders, Dr. Toby Travis: Yes. And yet what you will find, though, fortune 100 companies, they spent a lot of money on this, a lot of money, you may be aware of a Forbes picked up about three different articles they've done in the last few months that have featured by writing, and that's a really a kind of a surprising, you know, for an academic, it's kind of like, what am I doing in Forbes. But this really resonated apparently with their readership. And what you find is now the biggest and the best and the brightest companies, actually, they spend a lot of time money and investment on this. Yeah, where what you're looking at, or what you're referring to is when you look at, well, look at this set. 70% of new businesses fail 70% of new business initiatives fail. And in the education sector, 70% of school improvement initiatives fail interesting, that step hangs and hangs and hangs. So then you look at okay, what's what's behind that? The big why question why so why the vast majority of new initiatives and businesses failing, it comes down to execution. All right, this is what we see. And then when you look deeper, what what is it about the execution of these initiatives are businesses that fail? Guess what the number one indicator is? Trusted leadership? Yeah, it's just not there. And you know, and it's just boom, here we are again. But when you look at that 30% that are rockin it.That 30% Whether it's in the business sector, the corporate sector, the nonprofit sector, the education sector, those are the organizations companies and schools who are intentionally assessing their trust level, intentionally developing through coaching and professional development. And I mean, there's resources they invest dollars into this to ensure that it's in place, because again, the return is real and tangible and and there Just a myriad of benefits that happen when we keep that the priority. James, my observation has been now being around this for years is there's this idea. Well, either you're trusted or you're not, you know, we throw it into the soft skill category. And we just kind of hope people have get it. And nothing could be further from the truth. Trust and the competencies and skill sets that support trust, are assessable. They're trainable. They're identifiable, we know how to fix this. And again, but I see the organizations that intentionally address it. They're seeing really amazing things happen even in the midst of a world that's in crisis. James Laws: Yeah. And you know, and you talked about, we can fix this. And I actually want to talk a little bit about that. But before we do, to the, to the listener, who's listening to everything that you're saying, and says, You, I'm convinced, right, like, I believe that, will I as a small business, as an organization, I have to invest in developing and creating a space for trusted leaders? How do we assess even our current leadership and assess our trust levels? Dr. Toby Travis: Well, there's a variety of ways to do that. So and really, I recommend you, you use a variety of assessments. In education, we talked about the triangulation of data. And that means we want to be looking at multiple perspectives or data points to get a true picture of what's going on. I've had the pleasure of being involved in developing some assessment tools. And we could start there. In fact, I can share a link with your listeners for a Free Self Assessment. Now, it's not true data, it's like a reflection exercise, surely induce you to the kind of questions we should be asking. But then I can also provide you a link to a research based evidence based validated weather 360 type tool, where employees are surveyed about their leaders, and we actually get data to drive them. There's also just informal assessments, there are indicators that you can make, looking at our organizational structure, organizational practices. One example, when I work with a school or a client company, one of the first things I do for them is what I call a document review. So I say, Send me your employee handbook. And what I do is I go through that handbook, and I look to identify any policies or structures, protocols that are based on distrust. And we and that will give us an assessment of what what kind of a cultural rebuilding, because it all workstreams somebody in the organization blows it, right, they did something stupid. And so some administrators as well, that's never going to happen again. So they make a policy, they try to fix it by policy. And really what they end up doing most times is they're penalizing everybody, for the errors of a few or the one. And then this becomes part of the culture. And one of the first ways to assess, okay, how many policies that we created? How many protocols do we have in place that are here because we don't trust our people? Well, if you have to have all of these policies for accountability, or whatever in place, then you're gonna go back to look at an HR problem. And we've been hiring the right people, right? And the more you get those structures away, right, the more you extend Trust, the more trust you get in return, you know, these these are tools and methods for assessing the trust at base gigs, the basically looking in the mirror, what are we doing that's based on trusting our employees or what's what are we doing, that's assuming we don't trust them. And so there's both kind of an informal way. But there's also statistical ways. There's some tools out there, Jim Collins has some tools available, you know, the, Good to Great work, David Horsager , The Trust Edge, they've got some great resources available for especially the business and corporate world. Now, there's some, there are some research based tools that you can and should avail yourselves of, and to invest in. But there's also just some good practice for reflective practice. That will get you a long ways down the road, as well as just asking your people. James Laws: And I think that's a really important thought to write you talk about, there's a lot of ways we can do this with with really good data and getting good metrics, good surveys, good, anonymous approaches 360 where people can feel open it but if you are somebody who's listening to this and you're like, I want to be a trusted leader, well, that's the first step. The second step is now be reflective and be be you know, be honest with yourself and in your one on ones ask yourself what is my what is my direct report telling me and what are they not telling me? because that may be an indication of whether there is trust issue because you know, what you shouldn't be getting from your direct report. And if you're not getting that feedback, that may already be a sign that there's a lack of trust between you and your team. Dr. Toby Travis: Right, and you've got to create a vehicle and an opportunity for them to do that. That also does not jeopardize, you know, their relationship with their supervisor. And that's, that's why a formal 360 tool is really great. Because right, it's anonymous, it's a third party that's administering it, there's no way that the client business or school can tie the data to a person. And that's that's in yet you get the numbers. And that's, that's the real value of it. And, and again, you really set it to it, as far as you know, how do you start it, it starts with a willingness. It's, and that alone, builds trust, you know, just for me, so I'm currently a school superintendent for me to say to my employees, evaluate me and tell me how I'm doing. Just that invitation alone says, Oh, I'm going to trust this girl a bit more, because he's willing to take it and be open. James Laws: So I used to do this. I, you know, many decades ago, I was pastoring. A church and I used to do that with my congregation, I gave them a form that went into a series of data into a spreadsheet, completely anonymous scored me on various scales, everyone took it. And everyone was allowed to be as nice or as mean, as they wanted to be in the comments. And it was really eye opening. And you know, for that I was assessing all kinds of things like, you know, how well do I communicate? But in that was some some some questions about like, do you trust? Like, do you trust me? Do you believe that I have your best interests at heart? Do you believe that I have this congregation's best interests at heart? And so there were some questions that were kind of needling at that at least a little bit? Dr. Toby Travis: Yes. And James, I commend that. But I also would caution, you and your listeners, if they're asking me be careful with self created assessments? Oh, yeah. And this is why, you know, it is far more complex than we may realize, for example, in schools, we know what the competencies, skill sets and behaviors are of a school leader that results in high levels of trust. And we've got now decades of research behind that, that shows us exactly what these individuals need to be doing. And so our 360 assessment, literally every question, there's 48 questions. Every one of them is research based, validated, we know what question to ask. Right? Right. And what happens when we, when we just kind of, we try to hack these kinds of surveys, we may not necessarily be getting very helpful data, and it may not actually be telling us what we think it's telling us. So I always caution folks realize it, you may not have spent money on this before. In the big scheme of things, it's a nominal dollar amount. Go with a professional survey. And the other thing we have here is you then have the ability to do some benchmarking. Right. So these surveys, they're normed with other schools, other organizations, right, you can look okay. Because, yeah, we may be struggling in a certain area, but actually to realize, and so is everybody else on planet Earth. Oh, okay. I'm not feeling too bad about myself, you know, it gives you perspective, where, and also yay, for excelling at something you can really commend yourself when you realize, ooh, that is a uniqueness. We're doing great on this. And we can commend our leadership team. And so again, my my caution is be careful with self assessment tools that we create ourselves without having somebody who has an expertise, and a background to help you develop the survey you really want to be taking. James Laws: And I think that's, that's super solid advice. I think, you know, I feel that way about most kind of self evaluations in general, even these, you know, you have things like Strength Finders and Myers Brigg, and the Enneagram, and all these things. And you know, the problem with all of those are, is that I'm answering questions about me. And sometimes I don't know the difference between what I wish was true about me and what is actually true about me, I think every single one of these assessments and I think all of these people who run these assessments would do better if they set up their assessments to say, send them to the three people who know you best. Send them to your best friend, your spouse, your business partner, let them answer those questions on your behalf. And I think you'll find out who you really are not who you think you are, Dr. Toby Travis: Exactly as well. So what we'll do with With a client or a school is we'll have the leaders take us do the self assessment exercise, write the score themselves. And I tell them, Okay, hang on to that scorecard. So, with the trusted framework, we have six components of trusted leadership, and it gives them a score from zero to 40 on each of these six components, so let's say the a score themselves, you know, we're, we're all in the, you know, high 20s, low 30s. And then we do a 360, in which their direct reports all basically answer the same questions. But this gives us that 360 data, and then we see what those components scores are. And I, I'll tell them, Okay, now we're gonna look at the trust perception gap. You know, look at your personal scorecard where you thought you were, where your team says you are. And here's, here's this significance, James, when it comes to trust, perception is reality. So you may not like it as the leader, you may or the owner or the boss he really gone on, you may have all kinds of rationales why you think the answer the questions the way they did, and you want to, you want to wish it away. But their perception is reality, when we're talking about assessing trust, and that's what we've got to fix is their perception. James Laws: I agree it you know, I say this a lot like unspoken expectations are just as much expectations as the written ones. And so you're, sometimes the job as a leader is creating clarity around what expectations are to hopefully, push away the unspoken and get them spoken as soon as possible, so that we're all operating on the same understanding and moving forward. So I agree with that. I'd love to learn more about your TrustEd framework, as far as because what we've talked about, alright, trusted leaders are ultimately the main drivers of the success of business, regardless of what you determine your for that organization success to be, we've determined that, like, people want to be, you know, want to become trusted how to assess if you are, how do you now develop these trusted leaders? And I think your trusted framework is probably a good place to talk about how do we develop trusted leaders within our organizations? Dr. Toby Travis: Well, we know that trust is very complex, this is not just a simple, easy fix. So you have to look at the totality of what's involved in creating trusted leadership. And we've been able to identify there are six kind of major components is language that I use, just to talk about it. But these are, these are areas of again, competencies, skill sets, even giftedness, we could throw in there, and using the analogy of a bridge. So that's the book is trust as the bridge to school improvement. But it helps us talk about the these these components, that because people are visual learners, right? So we'll talk about the foundation of trust and leadership is like the foundation of a bridge, you know, what the Bridge sits on? What is the key element? What's the well, then leadership? That's, that's beliefs and values? What do we believe about the organization? What do we believe about the role of leadership? What do we believe about the role in mid input of employees? In a school setting? What do we believe about the role of parents and students? What are our core values as an organization or as a community? Are they known? Are they articulated? Are they well defined, and as a leader, can I articulate them, you know, could do a clearer in knowing exactly what these are really, really critical. But then there's the substructure of a bridge. The substructure of a bridge is that portion that connects everything else to the foundation. With a leadership the substructure is this idea of connecting and supporting everything we do, to who we say we are, and what we believe. And this James is the area where I see trust most frequently falls apart. You have a leader who says, I believe this, we're about this. But then their practice, what they're actually doing day to day with their employees, does not connect or is not supported to who they say they are. And that's where trust falls apart. And then we go on, we talked about the bearings of trust and a bridge. That's the part that moves. So here we're talking about being involved, leaders have got to be involved, and yet flexible. There's the girders of a bridge. These are the beams that go to the bridge. Well, this is all about those girders look different based on every bridge, what's your ability to contextualize to adapt whatever you're trying to do as a best practice of operations to this current setting? The other thing we've learned about best practice is always must be contextualized. Yes, there are. There are practices, there are a competencies that in most settings get these results, but it still has to be contextualized. To the people right there in front of you and to the setting and context. Trusted leaders do that they're always adapting, you're always contextualizing to their people, superstructure, the bridge culture relationship. It has to be intentional. You know, that old marketing line, if you don't tell your story, somebody else will. And this is what trusted leaders do they build intentional culture, the deck of the bridge, the sixth component, looks simple, right? It's a flat surface with a couple of lines on it. Not so simple talk to a structural engineer, that's building a suspension bridge, there's a lot of science that goes into it. But in the end, it looks really clear, well, trusted leaders do this, they take the complex, they make it very simple. This is what labor in, hey, that's where we're going. And these are the markings to know that we're getting closer to the other side of the bridge, order clarity. And when those six elements are working together, whoo, you see high levels of trust that any one of those is faulty or not in place? Well, you're not going to drive across the bridge like that, right? It's like, no, if I see there's a gap in the middle of the road, I'm, I'm not going there. Well, this is what happens in, in leadership as well. So we use that structure that framework to assess the six components of trust. And then based on what the data shows us and the response that we get, we then create smart goals action plans, in order to address and ensure that we have high levels of trust it all six components amongst the leadership of the school, and no one individual can do them all it is about your leadership team, always, always always about, you know, how does our team do this? Well, but that's, that's what the framework is. And that's basically how that tool helps us figure out what next steps are with organizational development. James Laws: I love I was I was writing these down as you were talking through them. And as I'm reading through them, like these are all extremely solid, I recently wrote an article of how to build trust in the culture of your business. And at the core, you know, my list was 10, but they probably fell into the six categories, right? Ultimately, they fall in these categories. And you're right practice, right, this, this disability to show up and do the thing you said you were going to do, do the thing. And you're not going to do that 100% of the time, it's not about being perfect. I often say I often fail at my very own values, the things that are important to me, I often fail at those things most people do, but it's what you do in the midst of that failure. It's the transparency and the honesty, it's the ability to say I'm sorry, and to acknowledge that you missed, you missed it as a part of that practice of showing up. And again, I love every bit of this framework is great. Dr. Toby Travis: I work at a Christian school, James. And I've often said to my staff, what makes us uniquely, you know, when we're identified as Christian Academy, what makes us Christian is how we go through our failures together. Because you're to your point, right? We all blow it, we all make mistakes. What makes us a community is how do we choose to go through that together? Are we going to beat each other up? Or we're gonna say, oh, yeah, I blew it. Let's what can we do to address that? How can we get better next time? Where do you need greater levels of support or accountability or whatever it may be? It is about how we go through the journey together, we are all failed and frail human beings. It's it is that element of living in community where we see the best results, because we can't do this alone. We all have up challenges, we all have our issues. But when we do life together, and this is what we see the best organizations, people love working there, right? When I walked into a highly trusted environment, it is so easy to tell, because people like God, yeah, I suppose they could pay me more. But I still come. It's not about the money. It's not about the benefits package. It's I love working with these people. That's what you want. James Laws: And you know, it's funny, we do an ENPS assessment on a regular basis within our organization. And the basic question is, is how likely would you be to invite someone close to you into work for our organization and work with us? And in that they get to assess a few things and leave their comments and one of my I'm not, I'm not bragging about my companies, but one of my favorite things that I we get out of that assessment is that they love the leadership and they love the people, their peers, the people they work side by side and what it speaks to talking about it, it speaks to what they're all Ultimately saying is I trust that the person side, the next to me has my back, I trust that when I fail, I will not be mocked. But I will be instructed and taught. And we will learn together, it shows that they trust leadership to make decisions on the best interest of the team, not just the best interest of the leaders, you know, our first core value is people first. And that goes employee customer stakeholders in that order. Because we know if we take care of the employee, the employee will take care of the customer. And if the employee takes care of the customer, the customers will make sure that the stakeholders have a thriving business. So I love every piece of that it's it's really powerful. And I It confirms a lot of what we're seeing, as we're focusing on how do we help our team members find fulfilment, actually, even in your bridge framework, I see my fulfillment model in that and my one of the questions we ask our team members all the time, in our quarterly reviews, is we say we ask them to kind of personally assess do I love the work that I do? Do I believe the work I do matters? And can I see the progress my work is having? And ultimately, I think if my team can say yes to all of those questions, then I'm doing my job, my trustworthy job of fashioning and shaping a role that is perfect for each team member in within the organization. Dr. Toby Travis: Yeah, excellent. Excellent. You know, where I see in school management, we're often well-intended school administrators just find themselves in really toxic environment is where they say, here's the classic one you know, they, they want to be student first. Right. Sounds great. Sounds noble. Well, if we're talking about instructional practices, absolutely. We need to be teaching kids for their future, not our past. And learning has to be engaging. It has, you know, so yeah. Student first, what we're talking about, instructional pedagogy or instructional methods, but we're talking about organizational management in a school setting. If the administrators putting the needs of or the wishes or wants of students or parents above the teachers, you just created a toxic environment because the school is the teachers. They are the essence that is your company, if you will. So always always always school administrators like a council you every decision that comes across your desk, every email that comes in, every request. The first question you have to ask yourself is how does this impact teachers because if you get that right, just like you're saying jobs in the in the business you get that right. Woohoo. All kinds of good things start happening when teachers are happy. They're fulfilled, they feel well-supported, they've got paths for development and improvement. They get better engaged in the instruction and when they're highly engaged, students get highly engaged. Right? So if teachers are happy kids, good, happy kids are happy, parents are happy, parents are happy, then a school administrators can be happy at that point. James Laws: Well, you know, it's funny because we've all watched the terrible YouTube videos of school board meetings of teachers publicly resigning because they've been neglected by their school system. And and they're like, you don't have our back. And you're making decisions that are not in the best interest, not even of the students or the teacher. And you see those. And and ultimately what you're seeing is many times, not always because let's be honest, sometimes people leave because they have a different thing on their shoulder that they're dealing with. But what you find is a lot of times in these school systems is this toxic culture that their priorities have gotten all out of whack and and finding out. Dr. Toby Travis: That the organizational structure is set up. It sets them up for failure. You're right. But again, some of the work that I do with organizations and schools is even looking at your organizational structure. So, for example, years ago when I was a I was a high school principal, James, I had 46 direct reports oh yeah. Oh. So there's something called span of control theory. And it's this idea of how many people can we effectively manage and support for success and regardless of the industry, there is some variation based on the industry sector. But but by and large, the numbers are six to ten right. Right. But if you've got a building administrator who's got 40 some director there, you've set him up four or her up for failure, there is no way that I could successfully and meaningfully support 46 people. And so you need to look at how do we, how do we disperse leadership how do we empower folks, how do we give greater levels of autonomy and control? How do we allow decisions to get made at the closest level to where it matters? That's where you see high levels of trust and effectiveness, frankly, in business models and in education models as well. James Laws: You know, you said something that as you talk about this kind of idea of span of control, you know, we see that in our own organization. We're always trying to make sure that people have the fewest possible direct reports that we can manage so that they can get as much attention from their leader as possible. And you almost see like in I wonder how much of our hierarchal work culture that we've created, this kind of really tall pyramid was created even first in some ways because of at once out of good intent. Like we need to not have too many direct reports. And then it just somewhere along the line, it got out of whack and we lost the real reason why we do this. But I think that it's interesting to talk about that is how do we how do we flatten as much as we can and sometimes you can't go too flat, but how do you flatten as much as you can without overloading any one individual? And I agree with you 100% getting those decisions as close to the frontline as possible. They're the ones who are really seeing the real issues, right? They know what the real challenges are. They know what the red flags are. They know when the warning signs are flashing. So we have to instruct and empower them to be able to make those decisions. Because let's be honest, the person at the top way too far away to be making that decision yet. Dr. Toby Travis: And when you look at like board run organizations, you know, like a school setting where there's also, you know, nonprofits and even corporate, what we've found is that if you have board members who are not deeply relying on either a consultant or someone who has the content mastery of what the company is about. So again, I'll use the school as an example, but this works in the corporate setting as well. So if we have no one on the board who has either a skill set or knowledge and involvement in curriculum methods, instructional methods, assessment methods, learning environment methods, you know, pedagogy is the language we would use in education. Then they do not have the ability to talk about what is best for the organization. Now, we may all I want a lawyer on the board. I want a doctor of the word. Yes, great, good. They can bring perspective, but without someone who has the content expertize of what you're trying to accomplish, you will not be able to lead that organization effectively. And and this happens every time you get I mean, what are the pieces of trust that falls apart is when a leader does not have the expert knowledge in what the business is about. You can't just take. Well, he was a good manager over here. He'll be a good manager here. Well, maybe if he or she becomes an expert in what we do, you may be familiar. It was back in the I think it was the mid to late eighties. There was a movement to try to fill some of the school vacancies. You know, we've been up we've had a problem with both teacher and admin shortages for years. That's getting all the press now because it's really, really bad. But it's been bad for years. One of the initiatives that went on was, well, let's attract corporate managers to come be school principals. Or to come be school superintendents. You know, you know, if they're excuse me, if they're successful in their corporate setting, they got the managerial skills. It's just about people management. Right. Makes sense. And what we we saw happened was the vast majority of them failed in a very short amount of time. But take a look at the ones who did not fail. What did they do differently? It went back to school. They got a master's in educational administration or you know, they they got a master's in curriculum. Design. They they didn't just assume this transfer of their managers because. No, they learned the business and then they become trusted leaders because, you know, they know what they're talking about. It's a key element. And we've got to make sure that those who have the power also have the knowledge and the expertize. And unfortunately, in so many structures, that's not a piece of trust that is protected and insured, and that's where organizations often fall apart. James Laws: I think that, you know, what's interesting to me is that I've I have I have held that opinion on some level where, you know, even over one of my software companies, the person I put in charge, I wanted them to have at least a decent level of understanding of all of the departments within that organization so that they could properly lead and have intelligent conversations. You know, I'm not an engineer, but I can speak engineering with the engineers. And I know what is capable because I've spent enough time shoulder to shoulder learning engineering as much as to I'm not going to be able to do the code, but I do understand what's what we're capable of and part of me being an effective leader in my company was my ability to learn those different areas of the company so that I could have those conversations and I could challenge assumptions and I could push back and we could have that conversation. And in the end, I don't always make those decisions. I still so many times will defer it. But I also know when I'm when it's safe, like, hey, take it like, right. I'm I know. And so I agree with you. There is there is a great deal of advantage of having leaders who understand the core competencies of all options and portions of the organization that they're leading in. And so extremely powerful stuff. Dr. Travis, thank you so much for being on the show. I want to give you the last word. If somebody wants to learn more about you, wants to learn more about trust, and how do they find more information about you? Dr. Toby Travis: Well, the website's always a great place to go. It's just trustEDconsulting.org or trustEDschool.org They'll both get you there. The book is available on Amazon, or you can find me at LinkedIn. A lot of folks find me there. So just put my name in and I'll see you there. James Laws: That's great. We'll make sure that all of these links are in the show notes. Dr. Travis, thank you so much for joining me on The Leading to Fulfill the podcast. Dr. Toby Travis: Thank you, James, for the work you're doing. Appreciate it. James Laws: I want to thank Dr. Toby Travis for such a challenging and encouraging conversation. I trust that you enjoyed it as much as I did. Everything we mentioned, including a full transcript of the show, is available over on our website, and you can access it anytime you want by visiting leadingtofulfillment.com/020. That's leadingtofulfillment.com/020. You know, the importance of building a culture of trust in your organization can't be overstate it. When your team trusts you and trust one another, incredible things can happen. Each team member is more likely to share innovative ideas be proactive, collaborate effectively, roll with the punches, or commit to your organizational goals. Unfortunately, trust doesn't always come naturally personality differences, unique expectations, negative experiences and challenging circumstances can all stand in the way of trust. It's a leader. It's up to you to foster a culture of trust. How? Well, here's a great place to start as a leader. Do these three things take on these three habits? Communicate often what you believe and what you value.Follow through on the things that you said you believe in value.When you fall short and it is when be transparent and honest, admit the failing, and commit to doing and being better, no one really wants to follow a perfect leader. They want to follow a leader they can trust. Thanks for listening and I hope you'll join me on the next episode. And until then, may your businesses be successful as you lead your teams to fulfillment.

Leadership is about the way we live. It requires us to think about our health and take steps towards improving it for ourselves, those around us, and our organizations. It's time we changed the conversation on health and wellness. In this episode we discuss… The hardware and software of our livesThe impact of the “success paradox”How busy people can get started making a change in their healthThe multiple advantages of prioritizing your healthHow sleep impacts your health goals and your professional goals About Our Guest Julian Hayes is an executive health consultant & epigenetic atelier, and the host of Optimal Health for Busy Entrepreneurs. He's the founder of The Art of Fitness & Life. This bespoke concierge health & performance advisory firm helps entrepreneurs, executives, and intrapreneurs live longer, richer, and healthier lives. This is accomplished with precision through leveraging their unique DNA, data-driven health metrics, personalized bio-specific programming, a "performance team," and high-tech toys. On an organizational level, the firm helps companies elevate their bottom line through precision performance longevity. Resources Mentioned on the Show https://theartoffitnessandlife.com/https://theartoffitnessandlife.com/podcasts/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phcDQ0H_LnY Transcript Julian Hayes II: If you're already pouring into your family, into your team members and into your clients right now, imagine how much more you could pour into them if you were functioning at 100% So one of the things is to basically run your body almost like a business. Not in every act, not in every facet, but in that facet of organization. A lot of times with business, you schedule key meetings Why don't we schedule our exercise sessions? You're very dialed in and precise. You have metrics that you that you keep up with in business. Why don't we have key metrics in our health? A lot of times in business, we're very much more proactive instead of reactive. Why don't we apply that same philosophy with our health to be more proactive instead of reactive? So those are a few things right there. And then we can when you combine those things, that helps you be a little more precise. Because a lot of times we follow fads that maybe don't fit our psychology and don't fit our lifestyle. And so we're forcing ourself to do something that is incongruent with who we are. And incongruent with our lifestyle, and that creates friction. And that's where you get this battle between fitness and business. Whereas if we take a little time to do a little intel work, to really dial in our strategy, we can have those things mesh with each other and feed off of each other. James Laws: Welcome to another episode of the Leading to Fulfillment podcast, where everything we talk about is meant to encourage people. First, leaders empower individuals to achieve fulfillment and to help your organizations become places people love to work. I'm your host, James Laws, and I have a great show in store for you. My guest for this episode is Julian Hayes II. Julian is an executive health consultant and Epigenetic Atelier and the host of the Optimal Health for Busy Entrepreneurs Podcast. He's the founder of The Art of Fitness and Life. This bespoke concierge health and performance advisory firm helps entrepreneurs and executives and entrepreneurs live longer, richer and healthier lives. And an organizational level. The firm helps companies elevate their bottom line through precision performance longevity. In my conversation with Julian we discuss the hardware and software of our lives, the impact of the success paradox, how busy people can get started making a change in their health, the multiple advantages of prioritizing your health, and how sleep impacts your health goals and your professional goals. But before we get into all of that, I want to invite you to subscribe to Leading to Fulfillment podcast in your favorite podcast tool, we're on Apple and Google Podcasts, Spotify or you can even watch us over on YouTube any time. If we are in your favorite place to consume podcasts, just let me know and I'll make sure to fix that right away. Now let's jump into my conversation with Julian Hayes II. Julian, thank you so much for being on the Leading to Fulfillment podcast. Julian Hayes II: Thank you for having me, James. It's an absolute pleasure to be here. James Laws: I am. I'm really excited for today's episode. I think there's some things that I can learn. I am not the healthiest person in the world, but I have always been trying to get healthier. I know it's if I want to sustain what I hope to accomplish as far as my goals and my bigger goals, I need to do that. You describe yourself as an executive health consultant and an Epigenetic Atelier. Now I can totally connect with what an executive health consultant is, but perhaps so that the audience can get to know you a little bit more. What exactly is an Epigenetic Atelier? Julian Hayes II: It's funny using the word Atelier I didn't know what the word was the first neither. So I. I randomly had a meeting with a guy on lunch club. It's guess it's like a social networking app. And so I do, I do this every so often and I was talking about what I do. He's like, You're in atelier. And I was like, What? I had trouble saying this. I had to go to Google to learn how to pronounce it. That's the first thing, right? So then and then I was like, Oh, OK, that makes sense. So Atelier was basically like an artist in a workshop. And as I was talking about what I do and that's where he got the epigenetic from. And so epigenetics is basically when you hear genetics, we've heard genetics for our DNA, but epi means above. So epigenetics means above that gene. And what that gene does is basically just giving a quick background of what all the. So you understand epigenetics is. They give the hardware of a computer and they give the software. In this case, our bodies is the hardware and the software is all the different environmental input whether that's through the way we eat, the way we breathe, the way we exercise our relationships, our vacation, every single thing that we're interacting with in an environment is communicating with that hardware. Just like a computer program that software computer communicates with that hardware. And depending on the type of software and the quality of that that's going to lead to the outcome of how their hardware performs. And it's the same thing with our human body. So in a nutshell, the human body is basically my workshop is how we got to that. And I don't know, it's it's I tell you, it leads to a lot of conversation. So I was like, oh, I'll go with it. Nobody knows what it means. I don't know what it means. But let's roll with it. James Laws: Well, I mean, it certainly is a conversation starter. It sounds so fancy. Yeah. And so you're kind of like, Hey, I need to dig into this and understand this a little bit more, and and I can definitely appreciate what you're talking about. You know, being someone who owns a tech company and thinking about my own kind of programing. Right. I have a hardware mind, my physical body. Like, I have this, like, kind of the hardware of my life. And there's so much input that I take in software that has been driving the way I operate in the way I act. And some of that is through, you know, the argument of nature and nurture. Some of it is I was born this way and some of it is I've taken on these habits, these new things to that that have happened just in life. Right. Just experiences that you have buried examples. When I was younger, I had I was really skinny up until I was in my thirties. I probably weighed 120, £240. I am way more than that now. And what was funny is when I was young, I was very insecure about how skinny I was. And so I learned that if I ate fast, I could eat more, consume more calories, so that I would hopefully start to bulk up a little bit and not feel so scrawny and so skinny, so insecure about my about who I was. Flash forward to my thirties. I built these bad habits of eating really fast and consuming a lot of calories and my metabolism slowed way down because I switched from having a more active work lifestyle to being more sitting in front of a computer and kind of doing that kind of grind. And now all of a sudden I'm gaining weight and it's out of control. I don't know how to stop it because I have programed. I have I have inserted software to use your kind of an analogy. I've inserted software into my life that has made the hardware act a certain way. And it's it was a challenging a challenging thing for me that I still struggle with today because of that early programing. Julian Hayes II: You're definitely not along with that. That happens to a lot of us and a lot of times it's we're not even aware. So you have at least one of the most critical steps is that you're actually aware of it. And then now you can go about addressing it. But people who are not even aware that they have no shot. James Laws: Yeah. You a lot of times when you, you know, reading some of your background and some of the stuff that you have out there, I know it's one of the things you touch on quite a bit is this idea of the success paradox. And I was wondering what how do you define what is the success paradox and how does it affect, say, our health and our relationships and all of these external things in our lives? Julian Hayes II: Well, it's typically been from observation and just talking to people and then trying to find a way to make this stuff concise when you're when you're explaining it and trying to grasp it with yourself. And what I see is basically when someone is starting out in business or even in their career, they're not as in demand yet, and they're on that growth phase. But over the course of time, typically as we increase our revenue, as we rise up the ranks in our careers, we tend to have more responsibilities. And as well, more and more people are depending on us, and that's a good thing. You know, that means where we're growing as an individual and there comes with that comes pressure as well. So that's taken up a lot of our time. And then we still have the everyday obligations of a family for some of us or some of us who are wanting to start a family. So we still have the personal life as well. You add all these things up and the thing that typically gets on the chopping block or relegated to end of the bench is our personal wellbeing. So a lot of times when we think about why, how do we become unhealthy, how do we gain extra weight, it's never, hardly ever because of just intentional negligence. It's never, it's hardly ever because we're just lazy or that any of those things that you typically here TV talk about, it's typically because we're benevolent people or service oriented people and we just do a bad job of being selfish and putting ourself first, but we're pouring into everybody else and just not ourselves. James Laws: You know, I mean, coming back to what we were just talking about, right? That that makes a lot of sense when I think about my own my own journey in getting less than healthy or not as healthy as I would like to be and not as active as I would like to be. You're right. It wasn't this intentional. I'm just not going to do anything. It's just your business work. I for a while, some at one point I was working four different jobs trying to kind of function. I was pastoring a church, I was working a job, I was building a business. And I was I had my family. And you have all of these things that are going on at the same time. And he's like, Where do you find the time? It's sad that I don't want to do it. It's just I don't feel like I can do it. I don't have the the wherewithal to do it. So I can see getting kind of kind of caught in this. Like, I think I'm living the life I want to live. I'm building what I hope is a successful life. And then I'm just trapped into this, like, never ending cycle of not being able to prioritize my health and it is this kind of catch 22, right? Because if you don't prioritize your health, all those things that you're working for. Julian Hayes II: You end up you end up paying that. You end up paying in the money that you have earned and growth throughout your career. You end up paying it back to get your health back. So it is like you said. Yeah. 22. And it's a that's why I feel, you know, I sympathize, that's why I never really like bash anyone because I totally understand it happens because a lot of times a lot of us come from very humble beginnings. And when you have made some success and you've built up a certain lifestyle, the last thing you want to do is go back to those humble beginnings because it's not pleasant to be there. It's a step. It's a necessary step for pretty much all of us is part of the journey, but you never want to go back. So you always have that in your mind. That if I stop, if I let up, I could potentially lose this and go back to where I was at the beginning. So I definitely understand what's going on in people's head. James Laws: Well, and I think that brings up a great question for you is, you know, how can you say you've created some level of success? Right. And in doing that, you have heaped upon yourself quite a bit of responsibility, quite a bit of constraint on your time, quite a bit of just urgency. And so you feel like you don't have that time. How can busy leaders getting started and improving their health who want to make a change and saying like, I need to turn this ship around before it gets too late? How can they go about getting started in improving their health? Julian Hayes II: Well, become more selfish but what does that look like? Being more selfish? I would say being more selfish, intentionally selfish, and not thinking of the word selfish as a bad thing. But think of it as something that is that is for the greater good if you're already pouring into your family, into your team members and into your clients right now, imagine how much more you could pour into them if you were functioning at 100%. So one of the things is to basically run your body almost like a business. Not in every act, not in every facet. But in that facet of organization. A lot of times with business you schedule key meetings. Why don't we schedule our exercise sessions? You're very dialed in and precise. You have metrics that you that you keep up with in business Why don't we have key metrics in our health? A lot of times in business, we're very much more proactive instead of reactive. Why don't we apply that same philosophy with our health to be more proactive instead of reactive? So those are a few things right there. And then we can when you combine those things, that helps you be a little more precise because a lot of times we follow fads that maybe don't fit our psychology and don't fit our lifestyle. And so we're forcing ourself to do something that is incongruent with who we are and incongruent with our lifestyle. And that creates friction. And that's where you get this battle between fitness and business. Whereas if we take a little time to do a little intel work to really dial in our strategy, we can have those things mesh with each other and feed off of each other. James Laws: No, I think that's that's great. I you know, I think about the advice I give to my team and leaders all the time who who struggle with finding the time to really spend time with some margin, thinking about whether or not they're doing the most important work or they're just doing busy work. And I always tell people, you know, if you're like me, once you get into the day to day, once you get into the work, it's really hard to just stop and take time for yourself. Take time to think, take time to do something else. And so I always kind of advise, like, make that the first thing you do before you give anyone else your time take a lot of time for yourself in the morning and spend time with some margin. Think about what's important. What are your big rocks for that day? What are the big strategic things you're trying to move forward? What progress do you want to see by the end of the day and set your calendar for those things on that same wavelength? It seems like for me, I've tried working out in all kinds of different times. I, I tend to feel like I'm at my best to work out at like 10:00 in the morning. The problem is I know me. Once I get started with work, it's hard for me to just get away and walk away. Like I'm just got to go work out now. Like I have the flexibility to do that, but I don't have the mental fortitude to do that because I get into a zone working and I want to continue what I'm doing. So I have to take to the very first part of my day and make that the number one priority. So for instance, today I was up at 545 in the morning. I give myself a little time to just kind of wake up and kind of kind of connect with myself in the morning. And then I get on the treadmill and I run. Like, that's, that's kind of my routine. But if I don't protect it and if I don't schedule that in the first part of my day, there's no way it's getting done because at the end of my day, I'm way too tired to want to jump on a treadmill and go for a run. Julian Hayes II: Yeah. And I mean, you know, your psychology and you know how you operate. And that's that's one of the most critical steps as we were talking about is that, you know, for me, I'm a little different. I do not like working out first thing in the morning. I do not enjoy you know, for me, my exercise breaks. It's pretty much that it's a it's a it's a gap between for me to stop and move on to the next phase of my workday. So if one block is for my deep work, my creative work, and then I'll go do some activity, the next set is probably going to be more longs, maybe some admin stuff, maybe some email stuff, maybe some calls and that sort of thing, and and for me that because I know for me I early afternoon is some of my best work and maybe like from the 12 to three ranges I like working at that time, which is a little different. Yeah. And did some. Yeah. And did sometimes I can go work out in the evening and that's really to kind of help me decompress from the day. And then when I go about if I'm going out or meeting people for dinner, I can kind of be a little more chill because I've let out all of the, if I had any frustration or whatever, anything on what my it's been ran out or boxed out during the bucket and heavy bag. So it's different. It's different for all of us and like exercising serves different purposes for some of us. So for me, it's releasing pent up energy is releasing a little anxiousness that I may have. For others, it's it's therapeutic. So it represents a lot of different things. And I think when you know that and what's the purpose of the exercising for I think that's going to help you schedule it as well. And it's also going to help you stick with it probably a little easier than if you're just thinking something like just weight or something now we're all different. But for most I've seen if you can attach it to concrete things with a little more substance that are very meaningful to you, that's going to usually help you make it a priority even if you don't want to do it. James Laws: Yeah, no, I think you're right. And and it's you talk about like what meaning and what do you get out of the working out? Right. Obviously I work out cause I'm trying to get healthier or I want to lose weight. I want to build my cardiovascular health. Like, those are things I, I know that are important for me. I have a seven year old and I want to keep up with him, and so I need to get on the treadmill. So that's one of the reasons. But the reason I run, the reason I chose running right, is because when I do, you know, I almost a decade ago when I was running, I remember, like, going for a long run, and it cleared my mind. Like, I was more creative after a run. Absolutely. I don't know if it was just all those endorphins and everything that were firing off, but I just like everything just kind of emptied my head. All the stuff that I had like like spinning around, taking up my space so I couldn't be creative, were gone. And I had my best ideas when I would go for long runs. And so now I'm just trying to get back to that place where I can actually run for a long period of time outside and really enjoy it. So yeah, I definitely can see that. Julian Hayes II: I agree on the running. I picked up the running at the start of the at the start of our training, so maybe two years ago, that's when I picked up running because typically my training has been the opposite of that. It's I play basketball and then so I did I box boxing. So everything I did was explosive work and so let's go out for a run. Let's, let's just do it and let's see what happens. And then I go run. I'm like, Man, this feels different. This feels different compared to like lifting weights in boxing. It's a, you know, this is a lot more therapeutic, whereas other is just more primal. I'm letting out aggression. This is, this feels good. And I came back and I felt so clear. I'm like, Wow, I understand the runner's high. I understand. Yeah. How it's addicting. So now I'm addicted now. I mean, it's a little more time consuming. And so now I have because I have two things now to do, but the running has really helped me in terms of like my mental health. James Laws: That I know. I think you're right. And I think different types of workouts will have that impact. Right. Like, I understand I, I have a heavy bag I mean, it's mostly martial arts that I spent a lot of time doing, and so I spent time in a heavy bag. And you're right, it can relieve tension. It can kind of let some of that loose and kind of let out some of that aggression that you're feeling perhaps towards things that you don't want to have aggression towards, let it out on the bag. And it can it can feel great, but yeah, the runner, the runner's high of just kind of getting a clear, clean slate, a clean mental slate is just such a powerful, powerful tool. What other than just getting healthy? Right. Because I think that's one of the reasons I mean, if you're if you're like me and you're listening, you're like, yeah, you know, I'm not as healthy as I could be. I'm not as active as I could be. I sit in front of a computer all day. I want to be more healthy. That's one reason why we encourage our team to be healthy. You know, we encourage leaders to be healthy. What is and what are some of the other perhaps advantages of spending time focusing on your health being a little more selfish as it pertains, maybe even to your greater business? Julian Hayes II: Well, it's going to you're going to be a better decision maker. You're going to have more executive presence and you're going to be it's going to improve your leadership capabilities and let's look at sleep, for example, and kind of some of the back end work that sleep is doing. So we have we have a prefrontal cortex in our brain. We have our amygdala and when we hear amygdala, it's very primitive. It's one of the oldest parts of our brain. And this is your fight or flight, and it's highly emotional. And our prefrontal cortex is our logic and our reasoning. And when we're sleep deprived, we're going to have increased activity in the amygdala and decrease activity in the prefrontal cortex. So in simple terms, what you're doing there is you're going to have someone who's operating in a much more emotional state and they're basing everything off their emotions. They're going to have a short fuze. So maybe you're going to lash out at maybe your partner a little quicker or you're going to be a little more annoyed a little quicker or with your team members you're going to be a little more less empathetic with them. And, you know, and so that's one example, right? There is just that that activity and that decision making right there. And then when I think about executive presence, while you're thinking about, you know, like when I say executive presence and there's an image with that, it's not necessarily being super muscular and and that's cool and everything, but it's more about the image that you're conveying, your posture, the energy that you're giving off, because we can feel that, you know, that is an unspoken communication because only 7% of our communication is actually verbal, verbal or the other 9090 3% is unspoken. And whether we like it or not, we live in a world that does a lot of first impressions based off how we present ourselves when we first come on. And if you can maximize that, that's going to help you get business, especially if you're at the early stages where you need every advantage that you can to get in the door. And it's going to help that gravitas as well. And I don't remember the studies off the top of my head. I wrote about it a long time ago where about exercise is a competitive advantage with that? Because exercise does help that executive presence. It helps the gravitas, it helps your confidence, and of course it's going to help your posture. And I think Dr. Amy Cuddy, I think she did a TED Talk or something like that about the power posing and posture and everything. And I also think about brain development and cognitive health and what that does when you exercise, when you think a cognition, there's a lot of key areas. And one of those is memory and entrepreneurs like Steve Jobs and think various musicians and even writers have made famous the walking meetings. So that is a simple way right there to if you're looking for a way to squeeze some activity in and you're a little zoom fatigue like I am, schedule some of your calls. It doesn't need a virtual to see each other. Just schedule it to where you can go for a little quick 30 minute walk instead of just sitting out, you're going for a walk for 30 minutes while you're having this meeting. And so you're not going to things out at once. But you're also when you get your body moving in motion, just like what we talked about with the running your your your thoughts, a clearing up and you're going to have ideas come to your head a lot clearer than if you're just sitting in static and not moving at all. James Laws: Absolutely. And even if you are virtual like a good slow walk on your treadmill, if you have one is a great way or if you're you know, if they don't have to be seen and you want to go for a walk around your neighborhood with your headphones on and just have that conversation, you can you can kind of go out and create some of these opportunities to do, you know, double service. Right. Have your meeting and also go out there and go for a walk. And and that's a real powerful way of doing that. And I love what you had to say about sleep. I for a long time, you know, we live in a culture where honestly the encouragement to get sleep is, you know, in the entrepreneurial world is kind of foreign, right? We're all in this hustle culture of like, you got to work and you got to work harder than everyone else's work. And if you want to stay ahead and we've bought into that on some level that says, like, I got to work harder than everyone else. Therefore I have to, you know, push and push and push and push. And that means what? Where do you give? Well, we give away our exercise. We give away our sleep. A few years ago, I made a decision that I determined through trial and error that I need, at a minimum consistently 7 hours of sleep I can I can seven above 7 hours. I have a hard time sleeping beyond 7 hours, but I need at least 7 hours sleep. And so now I've just I that's my schedule. I put it in and I just I give myself 7 hours of sleep very, very strictly. I don't I don't bend on that a lot because I know what you talked about. Right. There is this cognitive deterioration throughout the day when you start stringing together a lack of sleep, you don't make decisions as quickly. You don't carry yourself with confidence. You don't carry yourself with any sense of authority. When you step into the room and honestly, you sometimes come across as indifferent because you're thinking about a million other things, because you don't have the cognitive strength to separate and be present in the moment. Because you gave you gave up that will when you gave up that sleep. And so I think that's a real powerful thing for people to hear. Julian Hayes II: Yeah. You know, like you mentioned, right there, you're essentially operating. If you picture yourself like an iPhone battery, you're essentially instead of starting the day fully in the green in the high nineties, which you're sitting, you're pretty much starting maybe like a 50%, 51%, and you have a full day to get through. And so obviously that battery is going to get trained a lot quicker. And so when it comes down to it for a very important decision, you're in the red and you're not operating. And a lot of things that sometimes people don't realize or haven't put two and two together is sometimes are irate struggles and I health struggles is from sleep because going back to the decision making thing, if your decision making is a little off and those two areas of the brain are a little off and there's more as well you're much more likely to make impulsive decisions because you're not operating out of that prefrontal cortex of logic, your reasoning. So when we're making impulsive decisions I've never seen anyone impulsively grab go for a banana or go for a cup of broccoli or go for anything like that. Know they're going to go for something that is sweet and offer some pleasure to their life, a comforting foods. And typically what's convenient and comforting is typically not ideal for our goals. And when it comes to health, there's a place and time for those things. Absolutely. I'm not I'm not a super militant person with that. But typically when we're in that state, that's also a reason why that we can struggle with our health and our weight is because we're sleep deprived as well. And that's leading to like a chain reaction down the line. Of our food decisions are not as ideal as well. James Laws: Yeah. Yeah, it's so I mean, I don't reach for those things intentionally. So you can imagine how much I might reach for the other unintentionally. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely a real struggle. Here's the thing. I know as an entrepreneur myself, I don't have this problem. My head hits a pillow. I can be asleep within 5 minutes. No problem. That has always been kind of my superpower. I can fall asleep under any circumstance, anywhere without issue. That might be a medical problem, but I like to think of it as a superpower. Now, I know a lot of people in my life, both my business partners, people who work with me and others who when they try to get to bed like it, takes them hours sometimes to fall asleep there. Their minds are just so noisy, so busy that they can't seem to get that rest that they need what are some suggestions you might have to help people who struggle with that kind of consciousness at night when they're trying to go to sleep to get better, quicker, more restful sleep? Julian Hayes II: Yeah, it could be a multitude of things right there because I'm kind of like you. It typically takes me maybe 10 minutes or so to fall asleep when I really focus on it. And I have a wearable that tells me as well. So that's, that's, that's helpful as well. Now, the obvious one is caffeine and an excess caffeine consumption in coffee. And there's a lot of things with different caffeine in there. Some of us metabolize coffee a lot, a little slower. And so I have genetics that's a slower metabolism, so I stop my caffeine consumption. Whereas the typical half life, you could say is about maybe six to 8 hours. I usually extend might about 12, so probably around two noonish 1:00 I stop my caffeine consumption if I'm on good behavior, which sometimes most of the time I'm not, but I should I get lucky in that I exert myself a lot through my working out. So that helps me follow. That helps me fall asleep and so after we get past the caffeine consumption, I'll just rattle off rattle off a few things. One of the other things is our dinner time, our last meal from when we go to sleep. So a lot of times what I've seen is that and for me, typically I need at least 2 hours in between my last meal and before I go to sleep. And that's helped my sleep quality increase just from the measurements and data that I've accumulated for others. I would typically say between two to 3 hours between your last meal to sleep. And the reason why is because digestion is an act. It's takes energy, it's activities going on in your body. And if you're trying to sleep as well, that's two competing forces with each other. The next thing is I would look at the blue light consumption. So a lot of times what are we consuming close to bedtime? If it's very stimulating light, then then what they're doing, that blue light is suppressing melatonin, which we want to secrete at night, and it's increasing cortisol, which is cortisol is keeping us awake. Now, obviously in the daytime you want the inverse of that. And a quick fix, a quick fix for that is to get blue blocking glasses or too, there's a free software called Eflux and you can download it. And what will happen is as the sun goes down, wherever you located at, your screening will start to dim as well. And the only thing is if you do design work, just be mindful of that. So your colors are not so your colors are not a little janky. So I always just I always because I had one person who was a designer and I guess I didn't give the warning. And so he's like, look, my colors were way off. I asked. So so I always had to give the warning now about that just to make sure and keep that in mind. So we have those two things, and I always have a I have a priming routine, which is the first 90 minutes when I wake up and I have a regeneration routine, which is the last 90 minutes before going to bed to get myself in a state of mind for sleep. So because I had the thing where my head is always just circulating, what a bunch of different things. And so for me, what I did was I, this is very individualistic. So I had things that helped me relax and that brought comfort and relaxation to me. So for me, it's, it's peaceful music. It's taking a shower sometimes even including the bath as well. It's doing a little light stretching and then it's doing a little reading. It's having my day planned out, is having tomorrow planned out as well. So I don't have to go to bed anxious, like, what am I going to do when all I have to do, I know exactly what I have to do tomorrow. Everything's fine. And then it's also me meditating as well. That's a very hard thing for me because I'm the opposite that was probably the most difficult habit to establish was mindfulness meditation work because you're just sitting there and I like to always be doing something and I was like, You just you just want me to sit there and just sit there and breathe? But that's really been beneficial to my life is and another one in terms of helping your sleep quality, which might sound a little weird, is mouth taping. So I mouth as I take my mouth shut at night and there's different companies that have mouth tape designed for that. So I'm not just getting Scotch tape or anything like that. So and because I noticed when I woke up in the morning, I had dry mouth and I had a lot of awakenings at night. And so when I started mouth typing, my sleep quality increased. I, I could get by on less sleep then. So to get myself in the green on my wearable, it takes less now because of the quality sleep I get. So I get a lot more impactful sleep, a lot more REM, sleep a lot more deep sleep. And if you if it's possible I would start get some kind of light in the morning to get your circadian rhythm align to get some some kind of light from the sun and some and you don't have to be out there long. Just just a little bit of light to kind of get the get the melatonin suppressed and the cortisol going. And then also to keep your sleep times and your wake up times close, pretty consistent. Now, I understand sometimes we like to have fun or what not. So you're not going to always be going to sleep at the same time every night, but for the most part, keep those times this close together as well because you put your body in. It's in a rhythm and the body and we heard it, jet lag. But when you don't do that, you get something called social jetlag as well, which can throw you off your sleep as well. And those are probably some of the lifestyle things. Now, depending on your genetics, some people have a little more of a grain sensitivity, whereas when you eat the grains, they stimulate and they release a lot of more glutamate acid and that keeps people awake a lot. So if that was the case, since supplementing with magnesium can help in particular magnesium glycine eight because if you go out in the store, you'll see is that tons of different forms of magnesium that do different things. So magnesium glisten, it helps with relaxation. So I have that at night as well. James Laws: A lot of great advice there. I always tell people the most important part of your morning routine is your day before nightly routine, right? Like if you want to set your day up for success, fix the night before because that's ultimately what sets your next day. So getting to bed at a decent time for some like I don't have the caffeine issue, I can drink, you know, a soda or a cup of coffee and literally lay down and go to bed and has no impact on, oh man, caffeine just doesn't bother me that way. But it but I'm unique in that way. Most people can't do that. I have my business partner doesn't drink. He can have caffeine like in the first part of the day. But after 10 a.m., he can't drink it after that because it would throw him way off. And it's true, he already struggles with sleep would just make it that much worse. So big, big lesson in there is spend some time learning about you. Spend some time learning about your body. What what are your triggers? What are the things that impact you and are throwing you off an experiment and iterate on that fix your night routine. Now, if you fix your nightly routine, you will set your day routine up for huge success. And I think that's really, really good advice. And I appreciate your helping us kind of think through how do we get there. Julian, I want to give you the last word. How can people get in touch with you, learn more about you. I know you have a podcast also that you're doing. How can they get in touch with you? Julian Hayes II: Yeah, the home base is [theartoffitnessandlife.com]. And since you're listening to this great podcast and hopefully leaving a review as well after this, go ahead and subscribe over to my podcast which is Optimal Health for Busy Entrepreneurs. James Laws: Awesome. Julian, thank you so much for joining me on the Leading to Fulfillment podcast today. It's been a pleasure. Julian Hayes II: Thank you so much for having me. I truly enjoyed it. Thank you. James Laws: Thanks so much to Julian for being on the podcast and I hope all of you enjoyed it as much as I did everything we mentioned, including a full transcript of the show, is available over on our website and you can access it any time by visiting leadingtofulfillment.com/019 that's leadingtofulfillment.com/019. Also on the website, you can subscribe to our newsletter where we'll let you know when those new episodes become available as well. As send you original and curated content on leadership, managing teams and finding fulfillment. It's it's really a great resource. Now, when we talk about fulfillment on the show, we are often talking about fulfillment through the work we do or the personal experiences we embrace. But one of the things that sometimes goes unsaid is that ultimate fulfillment comes from within and not from external sources. Those external elements play a role, but they can only impact you from the outside if you've already done the work on the inside. Some of that inside work is greatly impacted by how you take care of your body, your mind and your emotions neglect those, whether unintentionally or on purpose, and finding fulfillment isn't difficult. It's nearly impossible. Take some time to assess the current state of your health. See a doctor and a therapist, get an idea of where you are right now, and then start being a little selfish and make plans to build and protect your health. Because it doesn't even matter if you find fulfillment if you aren't around long enough to enjoy it. Thank you for listening I hope you'll join me on the next episode. And till then, your businesses be successful as you lead your teams to fulfillment.