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13 episodes with John Wimber
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4 episodes with John Wimber
On this episode of The Sacramental Charismatic, I interview Darrell Evans and we discuss the Jesus People, his coming to faith, and the early years of the Vineyard. Plus, Darrell drops a lot of leadership wisdom to learn from! Darrell pastored Oasis Vineyard Church in Salt Lake City, Utah 1985 -2022, served as the Mountain area leader. He earned a BA in Ministry and works with Vineyards in Mexico and Cambodia. He is both a coach/trainer and spiritual director; and coordinates coaching for Vineyard Missions. Darrell loves helping leaders discover God's movement in their lives. Darrell and Lisa have been married for 46 years and have three grown children and three grandchildren. ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Selene is part of a Spanish speaking church planting team, worship leader, and incredible leader. On this podcast, we sit down to discuss issues related to church planting, cultural challenges, worship, women in leadership, and much more. ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Doug Erickson, Thomas Lyons, & Luke Geraty are THE VINEYARDISTS and on this podcast episode, we discuss the implications of Kingdom Theology BEYOND Signs & Wonders, Ecclesiology, and the standard topics within the Vineyard. We especially discuss the Sacraments, Spiritual Formation, and a number of other connecting issues. ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
On episode 61, I have a conversation with Josh Hopwood of Kingdom Pursuit about a recent experience I had that I believe was a "counterattack." We discuss HOW to prepare and how to SHAPE churches to be able to deal with this topic. You can find Kingdom Pursuit on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@kingdompursuit ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
On episode 60, I have a conversation with Josh Hopwood & Burt Casey of Kingdom Pursuit about initial issues related to spiritual warfare, demons, and deliverance ministry, including their crash course on how to free people from the influence of demons. You can find Kingdom Pursuit on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@kingdompursuit ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Wes McLachlan and I discuss the state of church planting, structures and models for multiplication, and what it may look like in the future. ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Brian Blount joins me to talk about his story, Kingdom ministry, and the importance of "doing the stuff" by taking risks! Brian has spent over twenty-five years equipping and training teams and churches in the mission, message, and ministry of Jesus in healing and power evangelism, both nationally and internationally. Brian was a part of planting Crestwood Vineyard Church (https://crestwoodvineyard.org) where he has served as senior pastor and currently leads Serve the Nations (https://servethenations.org), the missions outreach of Crestwood Vineyard. He lives in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, with his wife Jeanine and their six children (including triplets). Brian's heart is to equip and empower believers and churches to live a lifestyle of putting Jesus on display with love and power. Brian is the author of two books, "From the Sanctuary to the Streets" (https://amzn.to/4fYCtem) and "Putting Jesus on Display with Love and Power" (https://amzn.to/3UPc7Su), and is featured in other resources and documentaries. Recommended books from this episode
Psalm 104:1-15, 2 Chronicles 34:31, 2 Corinthians 2:14-17, 3:1-6. John Wimber defined this kind of ministry as ‘meeting the needs of others with the resources of God' Wonderfully, this type of ministry is now available to you and me
Psalm 104:1-15, 2 Chronicles 34:31, 2 Corinthians 2:14-17, 3:1-6. John Wimber defined this kind of ministry as ‘meeting the needs of others with the resources of God' Wonderfully, this type of ministry is now available to you and me
Doug Erickson, Thomas Lyons, & Luke Geraty are THE VINEYARDISTS and on this podcast episode, we discuss: What is Kingdom Theology? Recommended books from this episode
I sat down with Pastor Rodrigo Parada, a pastor at Iglesia Viña La Molina (https://www.vinalamolina.com). We discussed his history, experience in the Vineyard, leadership, John Wimber, and more! ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Mark Stoneham introduces Part 2 of John Wimber's teaching on Holiness. This is a message that is 35 years old, but is as relevant for today as it was when it was preached.
On this episode, Luke has a conversation with Dr. Jeffrey Koperski to discuss Foreknowledge, Determinism, Free-Will, Compatbilism, and basically everything related to Calvinism and Arminianism! Dr. Koperski (PhD) is a professor at Saginaw Valley State University. He is the author of "The Physics of Theism: God, Physics, and the Philosophy of Science" (https://amzn.to/455y9VE) and "Divine Action, Determinism, and the Laws of Nature" (https://amzn.to/3TZvzLT) as well as numerous scholarly articles which can be found here: https://svsu.academia.edu/JeffreyKoperski You can also find him on X: https://x.com/jeffkoperski ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
I greet you in Jesus' precious name! It is Monday morning, the 18th of August, 2025, and this is your friend, Angus Buchan, with a thought for today. We go to the Gospel of Luke 17:5-6: “And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith. So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.”I am talking this morning about faith. “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.”Hebrews 11:6 As I was meditating on this scripture early this morning in my quiet time room, the Lord brought to memory what took place in my life on the 17th of November, 1989, a long time ago. I was sitting having my quiet time. I had been reading a book written by John Wimber, called Evangelism Explosion. In the back of that book, there were a whole lot of anecdotes and little cameos of mighty men and women of God who dared to believe God and to trust God by faith, and how the Lord had used them. Very few of them were qualified. They were ordinary working people just like you and I, and I got so excited. I got on my phone. In those days, we had the old phone, you had to crank it up, and I got hold of my pastor in Grey Town and I said to him, “Gavin, the Lord has revealed something to me today and I have to share it with you.” And he said, “What is it?” I said, “I have just been reading a book about men and women of God who have been used mightily by the Lord, and there is a golden thread that goes through each one of their stories, and it is one word, 'faith', having faith the size of a mustard seed."He got so excited, he turned around and took his ball-point pen, and wrote on the wall of his office, and the office had just recently been painted, and he wrote, “17th November '89” and he put my name there, and it stayed there until that church got repainted. Well, I want to tell you, that was the beginning. From there, I took that seed of faith and I went to a nearby town called Ladysmith, and I booked the town hall, the first thing I had ever done in my life, and that was the beginning of what the Lord has done, by faith, nothing to do with me.Today, I challenge you to trust the Lord for that thing that you are believing for, but it must be so big that if it is not of God, it is going to fail. Why? Because when it works, God gets all the glory. Jesus bless you walk by faith and not by sight.Goodbye.
In this episode of the Innovative Church Leaders podcast, Dr. Eric Bryant interviews Sarah Jackson from Revitalise Trust.Sarah shares about the revitalization of the Church of England, the impact of leadership development, and the return of young people to faith.
During the Summer we give our teaching team a break and either invite visiting speakers or use videos of teachings from well known preachers. This week we listen to Part 1 of John Wimber from the Holiness unto the Lord conference in the UK in 1990.
On this episode, I have a conversation with Jason DiPinto, a Vineyard chaplain. We discuss what chaplaincy work entails and Jason answers all of the questions I've ever had! ❇️ About Jason ❇️ Chaplain Jason DiPinto was born and raised near Fresno, California. He matriculated to Yale College and completed his Bachelor of Arts degree in Political Science (2001). Following graduation, Chaplain DiPinto completed Officer Candidate School, Marine Corps Base Quantico, aspiring to become a Marine Judge Advocate. Before he could begin law school, Chaplain DiPinto answered a call to ministry and set aside his Marine commission in order to pursue a Master of Divinity. Chaplain DiPinto completed his seminary training at Yale Divinity School (2006). He also holds a Master of Science Degree in Financial and Tax Planning from San Diego State University (2021). He was ordained as a minister in the Vineyard Church in 2007. He is endorsed by the Chaplains Commission of the National Association of Evangelicals. Chaplain DiPinto's operational tours include Principal Assistant chaplain, USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN 72), with a deployment in support of operations in the western Pacific. He served as ship's chaplain, USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD 6) and USS Essex (LHD 2), including a hull-swap deployment to Sasebo, Japan. He was assigned to 2d Marine Division, deploying with 3d Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment to Helmand Province, Afghanistan, supporting full-spectrum counterinsurgency operations in Operation Enduring Freedom. He also served as the battalion chaplain for 2d Assault Amphibian Battalion. Chaplain DiPinto currently serves as the Group Chaplain for Marine Aircraft Group 39, 3d Marine Aircraft Wing, Camp Pendleton, CA. His ashore tours include Navy Recruiting Command as a Chaplain Programs Officer, where his area of responsibility included the Southwestern United States and the Pacific Rim. He also served as command chaplain for U.S. Coast Guard District 11, deploying in support of relief efforts for Hurricanes Maria and Irma, and as the command chaplain for Naval Base Guam. Chaplain DiPinto's personal awards include the Meritorious Service Medal (two awards), Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal (four awards), the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal, the Coast Guard Achievement Medal, and Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal. He received his Basic Parachutist Badge from Army Airborne School at Fort Benning, and is a Fleet Marine Force Qualified Officer. He is married to the former Christina James of Hamden, CT. ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5
Doug Erickson, Thomas Lyons, & Luke Geraty are THE VINEYARDISTS and on this podcast episode, we discuss whether the Vineyard is still equipping and why this is such an important part of our identity! ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
On this episode, Luke has a conversation with Dr. Jeffrey Koperski to discuss the value of philosophy, arguments for God, the (positive!) challenge of the Resurrection, miracles, and more! This is one of the most interesting conversations to date! Dr. Koperski (PhD) is a professor at Saginaw Valley State University. He is the author of "The Physics of Theism: God, Physics, and the Philosophy of Science" (https://amzn.to/455y9VE) and "Divine Action, Determinism, and the Laws of Nature" (https://amzn.to/3TZvzLT) as well as numerous scholarly articles which can be found here: https://svsu.academia.edu/JeffreyKoperski You can also find him on X: https://x.com/jeffkoperski ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
On this episode, Joshua Shaw shares about his experience of stepping into leading the FIRST Vineyard church to exist, originally started by Kenn Gulliksen. We discussed the challange of transition into leadership and a lot on preaching! Josh shares some excellent observations about why we should work hard in our preaching! Joshua Shaw is the Lead Pastor of the Vineyard Church (https://vineyardchurch.la), the originating church of the worldwide signs and wonders movement, famously led by John Wimber. Josh and his family live in Los Angeles, CA, where they actively love and serve the broader faith community. Josh is married to Brianne, and they have two sons, Ezekiel and Asher. He holds a Master of Divinity from Denver Seminary. ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Doug Erickson, Thomas Lyons, & Luke Geraty are THE VINEYARDISTS and they are BACK! On this special series, we have a new episode discussing why we are STILL Vineyard after all of these years. ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Michael Miller of Remnant Radio shares a bit about his life and how he processes when to speak out about spiritual abuse and other challenges facing the Church. We touch on Alan Scott, Dr. Michael Brown, and Upper Room and much more! You can find out more about Michael here: https://www.thomasministries.org ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Follow Me? Our Mouth - luke 6:45 Our Money - Mt 6:21 Our Time - Eph 5:15-17 1) What is the greatest love in my life? “Show me where you spend your time, money, and energy, and I will show you what you worship” John Wimber 2) What is the greatest message of my life? Phil 4:9 3) Who am I influencing with my life? 1 Cor 10:32 - 11:1 4) Who is influencing my life? Jn 15:25-26 Isa 40:28-31
Young and impressionable, Susan was drawn to the creative and spiritual environment of a church called the International House of Prayer in Kansas City (IHOPKC). She was soon courted by leadership and then isolated her through "special mentoring," with claims that God revealed the IHOP leaders her unique spiritual destiny. The philosophy its pastor, Mike Bickle, and ultimately the New Apostolic Reformation made questioning leadership equivalent to questioning God himself. Unlike Bickle, John Wimber of The Vineyard Movement established accountability structures and rejected many NAR excesses. Susan finally begins to question the teachings. Part One of Two.Paul Martin is a former pastor who works as a human rights advocate. He holds undergraduate and graduate degrees in philosophy from UCLA and Talbot School of Theology at Biola University.The Wolves is for those interested in religion, Jesus, or the psychology around power abuse. It is also for survivors of trauma, including spiritual abuse. Covering current cases of abuse in the church today, The Wolves will highlight the sinister paradox of those who display sincerity, conviction, and knowledge and who can even claim to hear the very voice of God himself, YET at the very same time abuse they claim to love.For information, visit www.thewolvespodcast.comContact Paul Martin at paul@paulmartin.org
Prophetic News Radio-The John Wimber family lawsuit against Alan Scott. I play some audio of Stephanie Wimber Ruppe and Her husband Donnie from a recent interview on YouTube and a discussion about the history of Calvary Chapel, Lonnie Frisbee and John Wimber.
Sign Up for Prayer: https://orbisprayer.org/Donate to Orbis: https://subsplash.com/orbisministries/giveIn this episode of God is Not a Theory with Ken Fish, Ken sits down with Tim Wimber, son of John and Carol Wimber, to discuss his personal journey, his family's legacy, and his evolving role in ministry. Tim shares intimate stories about growing up as the son of John Wimber, his struggles with expectations, and how he is stepping into his own calling.This episode is packed with never-before-heard stories about the early Vineyard days, the unexpected challenges of being in a famous ministry family, and what Tim envisions for the future of the Church and revival.Key Topics Discussed:What was it like growing up as John Wimber's son?How did the early Vineyard movement shape modern charismatic worship?What challenges come with being in a ministry family?Why is Tim stepping into a new season of ministry now?What does the future of revival and the church look like?How to Engage with Orbis:- Check out Ken's book, On the Road with the Holy Spirit- Partner with Orbis Financially- Are you interested in learning about Holy Spirit-led ministry? Visit Orbis School of Ministry at https://orbissm.com or email our Registrar, Jo McKay, at jo@orbisminstries.org- Upcoming Orbis Ministries overseas ministry trips are posted on orbisministries.org under the Train-Join an International Ministry Trip link behind the registration/login portal.- Do you want to join Ken's private Facebook discussion group, "God is not a Theory?" Please send a Facebook Direct Message to Bryan Orbis and a friend request to be added to it.
Sign Up for Prayer: https://orbisprayer.org/ Donate: https://subsplash.com/orbisministries/give In this episode of God is Not a Theory with Ken Fish, Ken and Grant Pemberton tackle a topic that has deeply influenced modern charismatic and prophetic circles: Word Curses. They unpack the history, theology, and potential misuse of this concept, exploring its roots in the Word of Faith movement and its connections to Pentecostal theology, new thought philosophy, and biblical interpretation. The discussion highlights the power of words, faith, confession, and the misconceptions that can arise when people fear that simply speaking a negative statement could alter reality. This episode challenges listeners to examine how faith, healing, and spoken words work in a biblical framework while dispelling fear-based teachings that can create anxiety rather than confidence in God's sovereignty. Key Topics Discussed: The origins of Word Curses in the Word of Faith movement. The theological nuances of spoken words and their spiritual impact. Kenneth Hagin, John Wimber, and the Pentecostal influence on faith and confession. The dangers of fear-based theology in healing and prayer. The balance between faith, wisdom, and God's sovereignty. How to Engage with Orbis: - Check out Ken's book, On the Road with the Holy Spirit - For more information on the Travel Grant Match to keep Ken's travel down in 2025, send an email to bryan@orbisministries.org - Partner with Orbis Financially - Are you interested in learning about Holy Spirit-led ministry? Visit Orbis School of Ministry at https://orbissm.com or email our Registrar, Jo McKay, at jo@orbisminstries.org - Upcoming Orbis Ministries overseas ministry trips are posted on orbisministries.org under the Train-Join an International Ministry Trip link behind the registration/login portal. - Do you want to join Ken's private Facebook discussion group, "God is not a Theory?" Please send a Facebook Direct Message to Bryan Orbis and a friend request to be added to it.
In this episode of God is Not a Theory with Ken Fish, recorded during the second service at Franklin Vineyard Church, Ken Fish and Grant Pemberton reflect on the foundational values of the Vineyard movement. The discussion explores the church's emphasis on healing the sick, casting out demons, and impartation ministry, drawing from the rich legacy left by John Wimber and the early Vineyard leadership. With anecdotes about healing breakthroughs and lessons on spiritual warfare, this conversation highlights how faith and persistence have shaped ministry practices today. Join us to rediscover the heart of the Vineyard movement and glean wisdom for building sustainable, spirit-filled communities. Key Topics Discussed: The origins of healing and deliverance in the Vineyard Lessons on spiritual warfare and breakthrough moments The significance of impartation in ministry Overcoming challenges in deliverance practices How the Vineyard values continue to influence global ministry How to Engage with Orbis: Check out Ken's book, On the Road with the Holy Spirit For more information on the Travel Grant Match to keep Ken's travel down in 2025, send an email to bryan@orbisministries.org Become a monthly partner Are you interested in learning about Holy Spirit-led ministry? Visit Orbis School of Ministry or email our Registrar, Jo McKay, at jo@orbisminstries.org Upcoming Orbis Ministries overseas ministry trips are posted on orbisministries.org under the Train-Join an International Ministry Trip link behind the registration/login portal. Do you want to join Ken's private Facebook discussion group, "God is not a Theory?" Please send a Facebook Direct Message to Bryan Orbis and a friend request to be added to it. If you'd like to receive Ken's monthly prayer letter, please go to orbisministries.org and scroll down to the bottom right for "Prayer Letter Signup."
In this special episode of God is Not a Theory with Ken Fish, recorded at Franklin Vineyard Church following the IGNITION Conference, Grant Pemberton and Ken Fish explore the history of healing and deliverance in the Vineyard movement. They delve into the foundations laid by John Wimber, share insights on the challenges and breakthroughs in ministry, and reflect on how deliverance has evolved and remained relevant today. This episode highlights the importance of impartation, persistence, and belief in seeing God's kingdom manifest through healing and deliverance. Key Topics Discussed: The roots of healing and deliverance in the Vineyard movement Stories of breakthrough and initial struggles with healing ministry John Wimber's impact and the legacy of the Vineyard Movement Challenges in teaching deliverance within evangelical circles Insights on impartation and building sustainable ministry How to Engage with Orbis: Check out Ken's book, On the Road with the Holy Spirit, here: https://tinyurl.com/3fu2w8t2 For more information on the Travel Grant Match to keep Ken's travel down in 2025, send an email to bryan@orbisministries.org Partner with Orbis Financially: http://tinyurl.com/yfe3974h Are you interested in learning about Holy Spirit-led ministry? Visit Orbis School of Ministry at https://orbissm.com or email our Registrar, Jo McKay, at jo@orbisminstries.org Upcoming Orbis Ministries overseas ministry trips are posted on orbisministries.org under the Train-Join an International Ministry Trip link behind the registration/login portal. Do you want to join Ken's private Facebook discussion group, "God is not a Theory?" Please send a Facebook Direct Message to Bryan Orbis and a friend request to be added to it. If you'd like to receive Ken's monthly prayer letter, please go to orbisministries.org and scroll down to the bottom right for "Prayer Letter Signup."
Wes and Luke discuss the gift of prophecy in the local church, especially in relation to what prophecy is, personal gifting, resources, etc. ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Luke Geraty has a conversation with Nate Brooks about John Wimber and the nature of the Kingdom of God. Recently a couple of videos have been released that mischaracterize Wimber's views and on this episode of the podcast we evaluate those ideas and talk about Wimber *actually* believed! You can also watch Luke's previous video here: https://youtu.be/zkB-HkS0EQ0?si=mRVRsAW1OzVbqcSd ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Wes and Luke talk about their respective views concerning Sacramental Theology, Sacramentality, and how this applies in the life of the Church. ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Wes & Luke sit down with Dr. Matthew D. Taylor to discuss a better understanding of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and Christian Nationalism. Plus some discussion on Alan Scott and Dwelling Place Anaheim (formerly known as the Anaheim Vineyard). ❇️ About Dr. Matthew D. Taylor ❇️ Matthew D. Taylor is a religious studies scholar and expert in American Christianity, American Islam, Christian extremism, and religion and politics. His new book, The Violent Take It by Force: The Christian Movement that is Threatening Our Democracy (https://amzn.to/4cPGqPf), tracks how a network of Christian leaders called the New Apostolic Reformation was a major instigating force for the January 6th Insurrection and is currently reshaping the culture of the religious right in the U.S. He is also the creator, writer, and narrator of the Charismatic Revival Fury audio-documentary series and the author of Scripture People: Salafi Muslims in Evangelical Christians' America. Taylor holds a PhD in religious studies and Muslim-Christian relations from Georgetown University and an MA in theology from Fuller Theological Seminary. He is currently a senior scholar at the Institute for Islamic, Christian, and Jewish Studies in Towson. He also serves as an associate fellow at the Center for Peace Diplomacy in New Orleans, where he works on preventing religion-related violence surrounding U.S. elections. You can listen to Charismatic Revival Fury here: https://icjs.org/charismatic-revival-fury/ ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Psalm 104:1-18, 2 Chronicles 33:21-35:19, 2 Corinthians 2:12-3:6. John Wimber defined this kind of ministry as ‘meeting the needs of others with the resources of God' Wonderfully, this type of ministry is now available to you and me
Psalm 104:1-15, 2 Chronicles 34:31, 2 Corinthians 2:14-17, 3:1-6. John Wimber defined this kind of ministry as ‘meeting the needs of others with the resources of God' Wonderfully, this type of ministry is now available to you and me
Psalm 104:1-15, 2 Chronicles 34:31, 2 Corinthians 2:14-17, 3:1-6. John Wimber defined this kind of ministry as ‘meeting the needs of others with the resources of God' Wonderfully, this type of ministry is now available to you and me
What's a sermon? What is preaching? Are you looking to improve your preaching? On this episode of The Sacramental Charismatic, Wes and Luke discuss sermons and share thoughts on how they put together sermons as well as dive into the dynamic role of the Holy Spirit in the midst of preaching! ❇️ Recommended Reading ❇️ Calvin Miller's "Preaching" (https://amzn.to/4fWwINV) Haddon Robinson's "Biblical Preaching" (https://amzn.to/3MeER2L) John Stott's "Between Two Worlds" (https://amzn.to/3WONUME) ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
Luke and Wes spend time talking about a requested subject -- the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). How should we evaluate this movement's theology and practices? Take a listen. ❇️ Recommended Reading ❇️ John Wimber's "The Five-Fold Ministry" (https://bit.ly/4dlkaOi) Robby McAlpine's "Post-Charismatic: A Road to Recovery" (https://amzn.to/3M2P2qP) R. Douglas Geivett & Holly Pivec's "A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement" (https://amzn.to/3XcDyYx) Brad Christerson & Richard Flory's "The Rise of Network Christianity: How Independent Leaders Are Changing the Religious Landscape" (https://amzn.to/3M3jmlf) ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
John Wimber said the church must be a hospital, a school, a family and an army. This week we consider the church as a hospital--why it's so close to the heart of Jesus, and why it's a value we can easily lose sight of.
Charismatic Revival Fury, Part 2: Unpacked, with Dr Caleb Maskell, VUSA Associate Nat'l Director of Theology & Education.In this episode, we'll explore the history of connection, followed by strong divergence between John Wimber (founder of the Vineyard movement) and C Peter Wagner, founder of the NAR. These episodes help us understand the role of Wimber's leadership in working to draw theological frameworks and create Biblical boundaries around a novel spiritual movement, what happened when those boundaries were ignored, and what we need to learn about temptations to power and followership of Jesus.https://www.vineyardcolumbus.org/articles/ten-commitments-for-a-divisive-election-yearJohn Wilber - Five-fold Ministry
Charismatic Revival Fury. Part 1, w/ Dr. Matt Taylor.Charismatic Revival Fury: The New Apostolic Reformation is an audio documentary that explains the history, leadership, and belief formation behind a growing and influential group of evangelicals in the US known as the New Apostolic Reformation, many of whom ended up at the Capitol riot on Jan 6, and many of whom are still influencing much conversation in evangelical circles. What you might not know is that in the very early days of the NAR, Vineyard founder John Wimber was in the mix. In this and the next episode, we'll explore the podcast series, learn about the NAR, it's history and the consequence of it's ideas in American politics and on Jan 6th, and explore the strong divergence that happened very early on between John Wimber (founder of the Vineyard movement) and C Peter Wagner, founder of the NAR. These episodes help us understand the role of Wimber's leadership in working to draw theological frameworks and create Biblical boundaries around a novel spiritual movement, what happened when those boundaries were ignored, and what we need to learn about temptations to power and followership of Jesus.https://icjs.org/charismatic-revival-fury/https://www.vineyardcolumbus.org/faqhttps://www.vineyardcolumbus.org/articles/ten-commitments-for-a-divisive-election-year
Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/w2rB6NZogbgThe American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, distrust of the church is at an all-time high. Young people raised in the church are leaving at an alarming rate. And, in a society where loneliness and spiritual hunger are rampant, people are turning elsewhere for help. In this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys welcomes Skye Jethani for a wide-ranging discussion on the crisis in the American church. Skye, a former editor at Christianity Today and former pastor, has for years co-hosted The Holy Post, a popular podcast. Recently, Skye wrote the provocatively titled book, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? In it, he looks at what the Bible really says about the church, then compares that with some of the prevailing beliefs and values popular in the church today. For example, the church is commonly referred to in Scripture as a family—but in modern America, it's become a corporation. In its pursuit of expansion, influence, and power, the church has sadly lost the essential Christian virtues of faith and love. As Skye writes, rather than feeling like valued members of God's family, today, many church members feel like replaceable cogs in a ministry machine. Is it any wonder that the church is suffering, and is it any wonder that people are leaving? For people who've had negative experiences in church and have lived through congregational crisis firsthand, this lively conversation brings clarity and hope. Guests Skye Jethani An award-winning author, speaker, and co-host of the Holy Post Podcast, Skye Jethani has written more than a dozen books and served as an editor and executive at Christianity Today for more than a decade. Raised in a religiously and ethnically diverse family, his curiosity about faith led him to study comparative religion before entering seminary and pastoral ministry. With a unique ability to connect Christian thought and contemporary culture, his voice has been featured in The New York Times, USA Today, and The Washington Post. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie Roys: There’s no doubt the American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, the distrust of the church is at an all-time high. Young people raised in the church are leaving at an alarming rate and we have a society where loneliness and spiritual hunger is rampant, but people are turning elsewhere for help. [00:00:21] Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roy-. And today I’m going to be discussing the crisis in the American church with Skye Jethani. Skye is a former editor at Christianity Today and a former pastor. He’s also co-host of the podcast, The Holy Post. [00:00:40] Julie Roys: And he’s a speaker and author of numerous books, including the provocatively titled, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? In the book, Skye looks at what the Bible really says about the church, then he compares that with some of the prevailing beliefs and values popular in the church today. For example, the church is commonly referred to in scripture as a family, but in modern America, it’s become a corporation. [00:01:05] Julie Roys: And in its pursuit of expansion, influence, and power, the church has sadly lost the essential Christian virtue of love. As Skye writes, now, rather than feeling like valued members of God’s family, many church members feel like replaceable cogs in a ministry machine. Is it any wonder that the church is suffering, and is it any wonder that people are leaving? [00:01:28] Julie Roys: I’m so excited to speak with Skye about the church, not just because he’s a great thinker and teacher, but because he’s my brother. Skye attends the same house church that my family attends, and I’ve seen his commitment to the church on a day to day, week by week basis, and it’s because of people like Skye that I haven’t given up on the church, even though I’ve had a ton of negative experiences. I still believe in the church. I still see her beauty. And so I’m so excited to share this podcast with you. [00:01:49] Julie Roys: But first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. [00:02:16] Julie Roys: The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like- minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Julie Roys: Also if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. [00:03:26] Julie Roys: Well, again, joining me is Skye Jethani, a former pastor who now co-hosts the popular podcast, The Holy Post. He also speaks and writes books, including one that we’re offering to listeners this month called What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? So Skye, welcome, and it’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:03:50] Skye Jethani: Thanks, Julie. I’m happy to be here. [00:03:51] Julie Roys: And you may be surprised to know this, but I’ve actually mentioned you numerous times on this podcast. Do about this? [00:03:58] Skye Jethani: I do not, because I have to confess, I’ve not listened. [00:04:01] Julie Roys: You haven’t listened to our podcast? Well, that’s okay, but I’ve listened to the Holy Post. I’ve actually been on the Holy Post, which has been really fun. I’ve mentioned you because I use this term that you coined called the evangelical industrial complex. And so whenever I do that, I try to give you credit. I say, , this isn’t my term. This is Skye’s term. [00:04:24] Skye Jethani: I don’t need credit, but you’re appreciated. It isn’t like I get a kickback or anything from every time it’s spoken, but. Yeah, I think it was 2012 I wrote an article that I first used that phrase, and it just took off. A lot of people have used it since then. [00:04:37] Julie Roys: Well, it’s a great term, but for those who are listening who haven’t heard it before, what is the evangelical industrial complex? [00:04:45] Skye Jethani: Right. So it’s a riff off of President Eisenhower in his farewell address to the country. It’s on YouTube. I recommend people go watch it. It’s very interesting, but he gave a televised address to the country where he warned about the military industrial complex. Of course, Eisenhower, having been a general and the commander of the forces in Europe during world war two had a lot of credibility when it came to military stuff. [00:05:08] Skye Jethani: And his concern was that there was this permanent arms industry that had been developed after world war two and the military industrial complex, he said, needed a perpetual conflict and warfare to continue its business model. And so I kind of adopted that phrase, but talking about the evangelical industrial complex, which is this financial money-making industry that constantly needs celebrity leaders, celebrity pastors in particular, and big events to perpetuate its business model. [00:05:39] Skye Jethani: And so it tends to elevate leaders who may be quite talented but lack the character or the maturity to handle large audiences or significant influence. But the evangelical industrial complex will prop them up, publish their books, get them on the big stage, build a big platform for them in order to make lots of money off of this person’s talent and reputation. [00:06:06] Skye Jethani: And then we’re shocked when they end up cracking under the pressure or falling into some controversy or their church implodes. And especially when I was working at Christianity Today, And I got around the country and I was seeing kind of behind the curtain in a lot of these places. I was noticing that tendency over and over and over again, where it wasn’t the Godly mature tested people who were given platforms. [00:06:27] Skye Jethani: It was young, attractive, talented people who were given platforms. And so looking at this in different angles, like I just said, this is about making money. This isn’t about really building up the church. And so that’s the evangelical industrial complex. [00:06:42] Julie Roys: And there’s so much that you just said; just in those few paragraphs about the church and some of our assumptions about the church, the fact that we can have an industrial complex, the fact that we have so many financial interests, and we’re going to dive into a lot of that today. [00:07:01] Julie Roys: And I love your book because you take all of these things that are kind of, we’ve just adopted because we swim in this soup, right? And we don’t even know kind of these false ideas about church that we’ve imbibed. But they’re there. And when you begin to contrast them with scripture, you’re like, Oh my word. [00:07:19] Julie Roys: But as I mentioned in the open, you and I, not only know each other professionally, but we go to the same church and we go to a house church, which is a very unconventional form of church. And I know for me and a lot of others within our house church, we’ve come because there was some sort of, I would say many of us are church refugees. [00:07:44] Julie Roys: Something happened at the church that we were at. And I know I’ve talked about this before on this podcast that for us, it was losing trust in our leaders because of a sexual abuse coverup at the church. And so that was very concerning. Your story, I’m guessing, is a bit different, and I realized as we jumped into this, I mean, I know your former church, and I know some stuff that happened there, but I really don’t know your story of why you came to this house church, which is really, in some ways, unconventional form of church, but if you read the New Testament, it sounds awful lot like what they were doing back then. So, what’s your story? How’d you get there? [00:08:24] Skye Jethani: Quite by accident really. I was at the same church for 20 years and for, I don’t know, six, it’s hard to, to find, but I was on staff at the church for quite a few years. And then when I was at CT, I actually split my time between staff at the church and Christianity Today. [00:08:41] Skye Jethani: So these convoluted timeframes, but overall 20 years. And probably, uh, gosh, trying to get dates straight in my head. A few years before we landed at the house church, my wife and I were struggling, honestly, at the church. And I saw, I think partly because of my own ministry background and from my years at CT, where I had been around the country and seen behind the curtain at all kinds of different issues, I had growing concerns about what I saw happening at my own church. [00:09:12] Skye Jethani: And I took some of those concerns to some of the leaders. They did not share my perspective. They thought I was making a mountain out of a molehill. So in those years, my wife and I kind of decided, well, we’re going to take a step back from like deeper involvement because I was, I just saw yellow flags and yet this was our community. This was the people we loved, people we’d known, our kids were all born and raised in this church. So we were committed to the community, but I just decided as previously having been a significant leader there, I was going to take a step back. And those are hard couple of years because I was constantly told, well, should we be somewhere else? [00:09:52] Skye Jethani: I really wanted to be at a church where I felt like I could contribute my full strength and enthusiasm to the work of that community, and it just wasn’t going to happen at our church in that season. Then 2020 happens and the pandemic hits, and it’s like, Oh! God caused the global pandemic. So we don’t have to go to church and feel awkward anymore in this situation. [00:10:30] Skye Jethani: So like everyone else, our church closed. And so everyone moved online or figured out other alternatives. And a few months into the pandemic, Brady Wright reached out to me, who’s also part of our house church and a mutual friend. And he and I and our families have been friends for a long time. And he said that he knew a bunch of families that were all struggling with just feeling isolated. And it was still warm out. And he asked if we’d be open to gathering in someone’s backyard under a tree, social distance for like a fellowship gathering where we would read scripture, pray for one another, and just have a very, very rudimentary kind of worship gathering. [00:10:53] Skye Jethani: So we started doing that in the spring and summer of 2020. And the people came from different churches, but we said we needed fellowship. And a lot of us were connected through Young Life. And then as we got into the winter months, we realized, well, we actually really like doing this with each other and our churches were still closed. [00:11:12] Skye Jethani: And most of us were maybe engaging somewhere online, but not in a meaningful way. And then by 2021, the church that we had been a part of all those years went through that significant crisis that it kind of finally blew up. And I had concerns that this was coming for years and then it did. [00:11:37] Skye Jethani: And so when people found out that my wife and I had been a part of this little under a tree gathering thing. And then in homes, after the weather got cold, some of those refugees started showing up at this little house church. And then there were other churches in our area, like yours, where people were struggling, and they ended up coming. And before you know it, Brady and I are looking at each other going, this was just supposed to be a COVID fellowship, temporary thing under a tree. [00:11:59] Skye Jethani: Um, But now we realize there’s a bigger reason for this, and there are people who need this place to feel connected and heal and a different way of approaching the basic functions of a Christian community. [00:12:21] Skye Jethani: So fast forward, we’re no longer at that church that we were at, obviously, for 20 years, I’m no longer ordained in that denomination. And this house church has just become our community and home. So we didn’t go into it as refugees from a church. We came into it just because of COVID, but it all kind of aligned with a number of years of suspecting things were coming. And then when they did, I think we were just a little ahead of the curve. I saw what could happen and it did. So maybe God was just sparing us from a more acute pain had we stayed more engaged. [00:12:50] Julie Roys: And we were church refugees, and I kind of knew this, but when we lost what was our church home, we spent about two years visiting tons of churches in the area and it just grieved me because I saw the same sort of system at every church that I just didn’t believe in anymore. [00:13:13] Julie Roys: I still believed in the church, I still believed in God, but I didn’t believe in the system anymore. We’re going to dive into that and actually in your introduction, I like how you talk about the church has changed. Our idea of what the church is, it’s just dramatically changed in 50 years. [00:13:33] Julie Roys: And I would a hundred percent affirm that. The church that I’m seeing everywhere right now, that’s called the evangelical church is not the church I grew up in at all, not even close. So talk about that change and what sort of prompted that change. [00:13:51] Skye Jethani: Gosh, I guess it depends on where you want to start the timeline. It’s probably older than 50 years, but I think one of the significant changes that happened at some point in the mid-20th century was sort of the professionalization of pastoral ministry. [00:14:08] Skye Jethani: And I don’t mean professionalization as in professional training. I think that’s very valuable. But here’s what I mean. Throughout most of Christian history, a pastor or minister would spend most of their time during the week out in the community. They met people in their homes, in their farms, in their factories, in the hospitals and the prisons, wherever they were out in the community, engaging people. [00:14:29] Skye Jethani: And then those people would congregate on Sunday. And the minister would lead them in sacraments and in teaching of scripture and all that. But he or she knew their sheep because they were out in the community. And at some point we flipped a switch and we said, if you desire to be ministered to, you now need to come to where the minister works. [00:14:51] Skye Jethani: You need to come into the church office, the church building, and we, the ministers will create a plethora of programs for you and your family to minister to you. And that was done, I think, with very good intentions and there’s an efficiency in that. But I think what it unintentionally did is it caused those of us who are ministers and our pastors to lose touch with the reality of our sheep. [00:15:15] Skye Jethani: We lost touch with what do people's lives actually look like Monday through Saturday? Because the only time we ever saw people, it was on our turf, on our terms, in our programs, and in our building. And once you made that switch from pastoral ministry out in the pastures, to pastoral ministry in the professional setting of the pastor in their building, well then it’s just a matter of how do I scale this factory? How do I make more programs? How do we make bigger worship services? How do I get more people into this system? [00:16:03] Skye Jethani: And then you get the explosion of mega churches and all of that. That was a big wake up call for me, even, after spending a number of years on staff at my church and then beginning to work outside, I realized, oh, I had no idea what the lives of the people in my church were actually like, because I only saw them in my context. I never saw them in their context. So I think that was a big change. And then you just get this massive growth of the institution because you add into this concoction the sacred secular divide. And a lot of people in ministry think that the only work that really matters ultimately is ministry. [00:16:23] Skye Jethani: So if something’s going to matter, it has to happen under the church umbrella, which is how you get like exercise facilities in a church. It’s how you get auto mechanics in a church. It’s how you get all these because it has to be under the church to count and you get these monstrosities ministries and in some communities that’s necessary. [00:16:43] Skye Jethani: I don’t want to completely diminish that, but a lot of places it isn’t. And then you need more and more professional people to manage and run these huge things. And that becomes the system that you’re talking about. You’re like, wow, this becomes really self-serving rather than ministering out into the community. [00:16:59] Skye Jethani: I think that’s one reason is just the simple professionalization of what happened. There’s a lot of other pieces of this we can unpack, but I think that one doesn’t get enough attention. [00:17:07] Julie Roys: Yeah. And the church has become a corporation. It’s not the family that a lot of us knew the church has. And I do think there were good intentions with things. Like I remember the first time we went to Willow Creek, which is the big mega church in the Chicago area, much less big now that everything’s happened with Bill Hybels But I remember going and the thing that struck me, because when I grew up in this little church, it was a great family, really great family, but nobody became a Christian there. Right? Like nobody came to the church and became a Christian. And I saw Willow Creek putting on these amazing shows on Sunday morning, very attractional model. And I remember inviting my boss. I was doing this little sales job in between college and graduate school. And I invited my boss, and my boss became a believer. [00:17:59] Julie Roys: And then we started doing Bible studies and we used to fill up two rows of people on midweek. Like we’d have a sales meeting and then we go to Willow. And literally there were dozens of people became believers through that. So I mean that at first I was just like, this is amazing. It’s like the para-church church. I saw all of these para church type outreach ministries, that model coming into the church. But then some really unintended consequences we really weren’t thinking about it necessarily biblically, we were thinking about it pragmatically; how do we reach people? [00:18:43] Julie Roys: And that’s kind of how we got there, but really, what is the church, right? I mean, that’s what your book is getting to. What is the church? And I think you rightly say a lot of people think of it as an event, as a building, as an organization. So biblically, let’s go back down to our roots, right? And what is the church? [00:19:02] Skye Jethani: The simplest answer is it’s a community of women and men and children who have been redeemed by Jesus and are living in communion with him and one another. That’s it. And that obviously can take different forms and structures and different cultures and times, but that’s it. I think your observation that megachurch function very much like a parachurch outreach kind of ministry, I think it’s accurate. And I’ve been a part of a number, especially as a college student, a number of parachurch organizations like Campus Crusade CRU now, InterVarsity, Navigators, and at least in my time connected to some of those things. They’re very careful not to call themselves a church because they understand that we may be a ministry, we may do outreach and Bible studies and other things, but we are not a church. [00:20:05] Skye Jethani: But the funny part is when you go to some churches that more or less function like parachurch ministries. they embrace the name church. And I wrote a piece many years ago for Leadership Journal, where I was arguing that these very large churches shouldn’t really be called churches. And I started calling them VLMs, which is a new one. It’s a very large ministry. And I tried to come up with a name that wasn’t disparaging because they are doing ministry. They are reaching people like your colleagues, like they’re doing good work, but there’s something chafed on me about calling it a church when the historic definition and functions of a church community were really not present. But they were preaching the gospel. They were teaching scripture. They were engaging non-believers, all that great. But the functioning of a church in many of these places was not actually happening. [00:20:44] Skye Jethani: Para church organizations recognize that about themselves and stayed away from the label of church, but these mega churches and other ministries embrace the church name. All the while they weren’t really functioning as churches. [00:20:56] Julie Roys: And I think the pastor wasn’t functioning as a pastor. I mean, we have pastors who are basically preachers, but they’re not pastors. They’re not shepherds. [00:21:04] Skye Jethani: Right. Exactly. Yeah. [00:21:06] Julie Roys: You wrote one of the chapters is on, whose church is it really? And it reminded me of an experience I had last fall. So I was doing some investigating on a church where Albert Tate was the pastor. It’s in Monrovia, California, and he had admitted that he had an inappropriate texting relationship, but then his staff started complaining about bullying, about spiritual abuse. [00:21:33] Julie Roys: They found out that they really didn’t have any say. They didn’t own the church the way the bylaws were written. Albert, and a few of his key guys that he put on his board owned the church. I remember at this very contentious town hall meeting that I went to where they were basically the people were demanding their church back, and they were talking about Albert going on this sabbatical, and he came back really quickly. I forget how it’s several weeks. And then he said, and I’m just going to quote, he’s like, I’m not sure if a month would have made any difference, like saying if I had stayed on my break for a month longer. And unfortunately, I still feel like this is my church. And the place erupted. I mean, people were saying it’s our church, it’s our church. [00:22:25] Julie Roys: And then somebody was saying, no, it’s God’s church. But the way that we think about our church, I mean, there, it was really coming to a head, and it really was a matter of who owns this church? And we’ve got legal ownership, and then we’ve got spiritual ownership. So speak to that, because I think we have really messed this one up. [00:22:46] Skye Jethani: Yeah, and there’s a lot of pieces that intersect with this, because there’s different polities, there’s different church structures and governance structures, depending on your denomination and theology and all of that, it gets complicated. There’s some denominations in which they might have congregational polity, but the denomination owns the building, and it goes on and on like in the denomination I was a part of they were congregational in their polity, but the licensing and ordination of clergy was handled by the denomination. So there was some oversight. And one of the things, I used to have stronger opinions, I guess, about these matters, but as I’ve gotten around and had my own experience and just perhaps mellowed a bit with age, I’ve realized I have not yet found a church structure that cannot be abused. [00:23:33] Skye Jethani: They all have weaknesses, and they all have strengths. Some I think are better than others, but none’s immune. So if someone’s looking for a silver bullet of how do we structure these things to avoid abuse? Good luck. The best you can do is try to mitigate against it in your culture and environment by choosing certain models versus others, but they can all be abused. [00:23:56] Skye Jethani: But what you’re getting at in the story that you mentioned, and I’ve seen this up close as well, especially within evangelicalism, so much of our tradition is rooted in charismatic personalities and lowercase C charismatic personalities so that we tend to associate a church with its visible leader, the person in the pulpit. [00:24:22] Skye Jethani: I remember Outreach magazine, I think it was Outreach magazine years ago, used to do an issue every year on like the top hundred churches in the country or something like that. And they measure just based on size, based on attendance. And it was like a centerfold, a fold out. big thing and they’d list all these churches in this chart And there was the name of the church and then there was just a headshot of the senior pastor That was the visual representation of that church [00:25:02] Skye Jethani: So it is a structural problem, but it’s also a people problem We do that we do that because we tend to pick a church based on do I like the preacher? If that’s the criteria you have for picking your church, you’re reinforcing that same idea. And what really grieved me was when I realized, despite the rhetoric, despite the theology, despite all the words about we’re a body and it’s blah, blah, blah. When people in leadership, John Ortberg used to say that everyone has their mission, and then there’s the shadow mission. [00:25:28] Skye Jethani: There’s what you say your mission is, and then there’s what your mission really is. And what I discovered in some of these places is, you might say your mission is the health of the church, or it’s the growth of the church, or it’s the service of the community, whatever it might be, glorifying God. The shadow mission in an awful lot of these places is to protect the pastor and to maintain the pastor’s status and reputation. [00:25:50] Skye Jethani: And that for me to speak about the system being broken is when I lost trust and hope. Where it ceased to be about what’s best for the body, and it became what’s best for the figurehead who represents the body, not Jesus, but the pastor. Again, there’s a bazillion stories of how this happens. [00:26:15] Skye Jethani: I don’t want to point the finger just at the system because we are complicit in creating that system. Because I think for a lot of us, we get a lot of satisfaction after saying that’s my pastor. That’s my leader. Look how great my guy is. Look how many books he’s published, look how popular his radio show is. And I’m a part of that. So there’s something we get from that, which props them up. [00:26:36] Skye Jethani: And somewhere else I wrote about it as being like the relationship between an animal and a zookeeper. They both benefit. The animal gets fed in a safe place to live. And the zookeeper gets the satisfaction of. , being in charge of all these animals. And if you’re content with that model, we’re going to continue to have this dynamic where the leaders are synonymous with the church. And then the church does everything it can to prop up and protect its leader, and it’s really unhealthy for everybody involved. [00:26:57] Julie Roys: That’s interesting. And it is true that it’s comfortable for us because when we go to a church like that, everything’s provided for us, and we don’t really have to bring anything to the table. And that’s been one of the challenges with our house church, hasn’t it? We're like, nobody signed up to facilitate this week. Nobody signed up for worship leading. And it’s like, okay, yeah, we’re going to have to bring a little more to the table if we’re going to keep meeting. Again, biblically speaking, there’s commands about when you meet together, you should bring a psalm, you should bring a word of encouragement, you should bring, I mean, all of these things. [00:27:34] Julie Roys: We’ve gotten into a very consumeristic way of looking at church and of approaching it. And it’s on us. You’re right. You’re a hundred percent right. It is on us. And I think we don’t think of the church. as God’s church. But if we do think of the church as God’s church, then I think it also changes our expectations of who should be in that church. [00:27:59] Julie Roys: You mentioned how a lot of churches, when they plant a church, they’ll talk about their target audience, for example, which implies you can either be in their target or not be in their target, right? So, if you’re not in their target, then do you count? I mean, do you matter? A lot of assumptions there. But when we think about church and we think about who’s coming, how should we perceive that? [00:28:29] Skye Jethani: Yeah, I think that the breakdown here is the way our culture defines hospitality. Again, it’s become an industry; there’s the hospitality industry in the modern world. And so what we usually mean by hospitality, and this trickles down even to our homes, like when we think about do you have a hospitable home? You think, well, if I’m going to have guests, I’m going to find out what do they like? What do they want? I’m going to accommodate to their needs. I’m going to make sure that they're vegan or whatever it is. And we’re going to customize our home to fit the people who are coming. The hospitality industry has taught us, whether it’s airlines or hotels or resorts or whatever, find out who you’re marketing your resort to, and then give them what they want. Customer is king. And megachurches and the seeker movement came along, and they adopted that same approach. Well, we’re going to go after unchurched Harry and Mary, famously was Willow Creek’s thing. And they had this middle-class, middle-aged people, and they tailored a church around what they wanted. [00:29:30] Skye Jethani: That’s very different from the ancient world’s understanding of hospitality. Paul commands us to be hospitable to one another, and so does Peter, and it’s a very ancient idea going back to Abraham being hospitable to the strangers who are angels who came to his home. [00:29:46] Skye Jethani: In the ancient Near East, hospitality was not about catering or changing your home or community to accommodate your guests. It was instead, welcoming guests into the normalcy and flow of your home as it is; it’s been authentically yourself but welcoming those guests into it. [00:30:15] Skye Jethani: So, I’ll give you one example. When I was in seminary, some classmates of mine did an experiment where they took 2 television monitors to Northwestern University, right? This. secular university in Evanston, the north side of Chicago. Julie Roys: Where I got my graduate degree. [00:30:36] Skye Jethani: Right. One monitor they showed a Catholic mass, and the other monitor they showed a very contemporary mega church worship gathering. And they asked students as they came by, hey, if you were ever to go to church, which one of these would you go to? And this would have been probably 1998-99 in that timeframe. The overwhelming response of the students was the Catholic mass. And then they asked them, why is that? And they said, well, that looks like a rock concert. I can get that anywhere, but that looks sacred. That looks holy. [00:30:54] Skye Jethani: And what they were getting at was, the mega churches said, we’re going to accommodate to the culture and give people what they want. But increasingly with my generation, and I think the younger ones, it smacks of pandering. It smacks of, well, you’re changing who you really are in order to be who you think I want you to be. [00:31:13] Skye Jethani: Whereas the Catholic mass, a lot of these students was like, well, they’re being authentic to who they are. That’s Christianity. They’re not trying to. I mean, goodness, the Catholics just started doing the mass in English not that long ago. They were very slow to accommodate, but that was seen as authentic. [00:31:28] Skye Jethani: So I think that the challenge for us today is not how do you change the church to be what the culture wants you to be? It’s how do you be authentically Christian in your church community? But how do you make it As accessible as possible to the people who might come in? [00:31:49] Skye Jethani: So in our case, like when we gather, we take communion every Sunday when we gather. I know plenty of seeker churches that would say, you don’t do that because it’s off putting to non-believers who don’t understand it. I would hope that if someone came into our community, and I’ve seen churches that do this really well, who take communion regularly, they explain what this is, what it means, why we do it, how to do it, the significance of it and invite people to participate or not, depending on their theology [00:32:13] Skye Jethani: . That’s being hospitable. It’s not changing who you are to accommodate people’s expectations. It’s welcoming them into who you are and to the normal flow of your family and household. And I think that’s a better approach and a more faithful approach than polling the community and finding out what they want. [00:32:29] Julie Roys: Absolutely. And I love that we do communion every week. I think a lot of churches have forsaken this. In fact, you talk about the, what is it, The coffee bar versus the Lord’s table? Like in a lot of these churches, the coffee bar has become more appealing than the Lord’s table to these churches. Again, because I think their mentality is we’re doing church, and this is where I feel like evangelism, which is such an important thing, but it’s almost superseded worship. [00:33:04] Julie Roys: Like, we forget why we come together. We don’t come together to reach the seeker. Not that God, obviously Jesus cared. He left the 99 to get the one. But we come together to worship God; that’s the primary. And so the table, describe, beyond what you’ve talked about, but theologically, why is the table so, and by the way, our RESTORE conferences, every single one, we always end with communion, which I’ve had people come up to me and say, Oh, you shouldn’t do like anything that might trigger people because they were hurt in the church and communion, that's something that’s very churchy. [00:33:46] Julie Roys: And I’m like, we have to redeem these symbols. We can’t throw them out because these symbols are there. God gave them to us because our souls need them. And we need to have this communion with one another and with Christ. I know this is a conviction of yours. It’s very deeply held, but why is the table like a non-negotiable for us as believers when we meet? [00:34:13] Skye Jethani: Let me give you two reasons, although there are more. One, is I think it is the practiced embodiment of the gospel. It is not just the verbal proclamation of the gospel, which is obviously valuable, but it’s the embodiment of the gospel. And in the sense that it’s not just a memorial to Jesus' death, which certainly it is that; my broken body, my shed blood, but in sort of an Ephesians 2 kind of way. [00:34:54] Skye Jethani: There Paul talks about how on the cross God has reconciled us to one another. He’s talking about Jew and Gentiles there. He’s broken down the wall of hostility and he has reconciled us to one another and made us one new person. And then together reconciled us to God through the cross. So It’s not just when I sit alone and take a little juice and a little bread, and I kind of think about the cross and my community with God, it’s when I am sitting side by side or standing side by side with my sisters and brothers, realizing I’m one with them because of the cross, and he has reconciled us to one another, people, maybe who I share something in common with, in an earthly way, but some whom I don’t. [00:35:31] Skye Jethani: And so when we don’t practice communion regularly, I think we can easily fall into the trap of losing the horizontal dimension of the gospel. And we make it simply vertical. It’s just me and God. And we forget, no, it’s the reconciliation between brothers and sisters happens first, Paul says, and then we’re reconciled to God, the father of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. [00:35:56] Skye Jethani: If you’re going to make an offering at the altar, and there, remember your brother has something against you, leave the offering, go be reconciled to your brother, then come and offer your gift to God. He always puts the horizontal reconciliation ahead of the vertical, and we have so lost sight of that. And we don’t think that’s essential to our gospel, but it is. [00:36:11] Skye Jethani: So the table is critically important because it is the embodiment of that full gospel, the horizontal and the vertical. And when we don’t practice that, we get really warped. And it just leads to terrible things in the church. Then the other reason, the second reason, and this gets a little bit more into that coffee bar versus communion table thing is, virtually everything in our society is designed to make us narcissistic consumers. [00:36:41] Skye Jethani: It’s all about me. It’s what I want. And when I go to a coffee bar, I don’t drink coffee. I drink tea, but when I go to a Starbucks or whatever, like there’s infinite options and I pick what I want and I’m the one in charge and I order it and I get it. And a lot of churches have that in their foyer or communion area or common area, whatever might be fine. [00:36:58] Skye Jethani: I’m not against coffee in church, but the table I’m no longer in charge. It’s Christ’s table. It’s not my table. And even if I’m officiating and I’m a pastor at the table, it’s still not my table. It’s Christ’s table. He welcomes us there. This is his body. This is his blood. This is about his kingdom and his family. [00:37:18] Skye Jethani: And it’s a reminder that I am not in charge, and I belong to something other than myself. And so those two realities of the gospel, I think are antidotes to what we get bombarded with in our culture of the privatization of our faith. It’s just me and God and the hyper narcissism of it’s what I want that matters, not what God wants. [00:37:41] Skye Jethani: For me, the practice of communion inoculates me to a degree against all of that cultural garbage and realigns me to the gospel of Christ again. So to not practice it regularly, I think is to lose one of the greatest graces that Christ has given his church. And especially in our context, we need to do that. [00:38:03] Julie Roys: I love about the table too, especially this is probably why I absolutely love liturgical worship, which is something I loved about our previous church because it was Anglican and I love the liturgy, but I love the table because it reminds us of what’s coming, like the wedding feast that we’re looking forward to. [00:38:27] Julie Roys: I think way too often especially in evangelicalism, it’s like our goal is to get people saved and then it stops. Like we forget that ?we’re saved to be part of this community that’s being redeemed and has this glorious thing that we’re anticipating. And I think most Christians forget we’re anticipating something. [00:38:48] Julie Roys: You just get the sense like, Oh, you got saved. You’ve arrived. And then, well, you should become discipled; that’s important because as you point out, we haven’t really defined what disciple is but that’s important, but we forget. Man, we are just passing through. We’ve got this glorious, glorious feast that we’re awaiting, and it is going to be a family and it’s going to be a family affair where everyone’s gathered. [00:39:15] Julie Roys: I love that part of it. And I love that it takes us out, like you’re saying, out of our present context and reminds us who we are and where we’re going. So love that part of it. And you touched on this when you said, You were hinting at the transactional nature that we come to church with, and I hear this all the time. I’ve probably said it myself. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of this. But we look at church and we say, and if we go and we don’t feel like we were especially inspired or something, we’ll say, I didn’t get anything out of that. [00:39:54] Skye Jethani: Mm-Hmm. . [00:39:54] Julie Roys: Talk about why that’s really not the way we should be approaching church. [00:39:59] Skye Jethani: Oh, gosh, Julie, I wrote my very first book on this whole thing, which no one read. It’s called The Divine Commodity and it’s all about consumerism and the church. With a weird thread of Vincent van Gogh all the way through the book, which is why no one read it. [00:40:16] Julie Roys: That sounds very interesting though. In a dark sort of way. [00:40:19] Skye Jethani: We live and move and have our being in a consumer culture. Everything is measured by its value to me. It’s interesting. Like, there’s an economist who argues that America really transitioned into a truly consumer economy in the 1950s. And it’s the 1950s where you begin to see a massive spike in divorce rates. [00:40:43] Skye Jethani: Now, there’s a lot of factors into that. It’s not just economics, but I think it’s a factor. Because what Consumerism tells us is that the world exists to satisfy my desires. And when something doesn’t satisfy my desire, I’m justified in changing it, whether it’s a product from a shelf or a spouse that I said I was committed to. [00:41:03] Skye Jethani: So we measure everything that way. Most of us don’t even think twice about it. Of course, that’s the right way to live. Of course, that’s what the world is all about. And so we come into our church communities or even our relationship with Christ and we go, well, what have you done for me lately? And is this beneficial to me? And am I getting something from it? We don’t challenge that ethic in most of our churches. We never point it out, we never go, Hey, this might be the way economics works in our society, but it’s not the way the most important things work. This isn’t the way we should think about our children. [00:41:34] Skye Jethani: This isn’t the way we should think about our spouses. And this is not the way we should be thinking about God. And Certainly not the way to think about his church, but we do. And in a weird way, the first amendment has reinforced that idea. We have no established church in America and I’m grateful for that, but it also means there’s a free market of religion in the United States and the religious institutions that are out there are all competing for part of the market. They’re competing for customers. And in that setting, the customer’s King, you give them what you want. So it ends up reinforcing this mindset over and over and over again. I can’t just shake my fist at the culture and go big, bad consumerism. [00:42:12] Skye Jethani: But what I can shake my fist at a little bit are churches and ministers that aren’t speaking about this dynamic and helping people be formed out of it into the values of the kingdom of God. And instead we either stay silent about it or flat out reinforce it and advance it in a weird way. So yeah, things like communion, like commitment, like relationship, like service are antidotes to some of that mindset. [00:42:38] Skye Jethani: But it’s hard. And I find myself in that posture all the time as well. You can’t escape it. It’s just part of who we are as 21st century modern people. But that’s where it’s on the shoulders of church leaders and institutions to help form us and give us a vision of a different way that very few are doing. [00:42:58] Julie Roys: Similar to that is I think this idea that when we come to church, we do so, and we’ve heard churches build themselves this way. We come and experience God, and worship has become, and it’s interesting to me because worship was so huge in my development as a Christian. As I remember being in high school and I got discipled by these, Oral Roberts/Jesus People like wacky charismatics who were druggies maybe 10 years prior to meeting me. [00:43:32] Julie Roys: But they were so on fire for the Lord, and we would get together, and we would pray and worship and literally we’d be there for 3 hours, and it would seem like 10 minutes. It was just an amazing. I didn’t realize up until that point that you could have that kind of intimacy with God and that kind of communion with him. [00:43:51] Julie Roys: So worship was huge to me in my experience of God. What’s been challenging now. And even I look back, we were in a Vineyard church for a long time, and I used to love to invite people and I would see them come into the worship and they just start crying and they don’t even know why they’re crying, right? [00:44:08] Julie Roys: They’re just crying because they’re moved. But now I’m seeing so many of these worship experiences that are, they’re amazing emotional experiences and it’s making me check; like I have a check now because I see these kids raised in their hands and they’re praising the Lord. [00:44:32] Julie Roys: And then the rest of what they’re doing throughout the week has nothing to do with the Lord has nothing to do with worshiping the Lord. I see these ministries that are built on worship, like Hillsong and Bethel. And now we’re seeing just such horrible manipulation and corruption and abuse within so many of these churches. [00:44:52] Julie Roys: And so the whole experiencing God thing, it’s hard to even parse out, like, is the music affecting me? I think if you try to parse that out, then you’re kind of killing the experience itself, right? So, you destroy it. [00:45:16] Julie Roys: But I think this idea that we have to go to church to experience God. has been baked into evangelicalism where it’s at right now. So address that and why we need to really change our focus when it comes to worship. [00:45:28] Skye Jethani: You and I were very different high school students. [00:45:31] Julie Roys: We were. You were here, I was here, right? [00:45:35] Skye Jethani: Yeah. So I was the worst kid in the youth group in high school because I was such a skeptic. I used to get dragged to these big worship events in Chicago for high schoolers in the early 90s. And I just thought these are the most manipulative and emotionally charged. I just didn’t buy it. I never bought it. And that’s just, that was my own baggage and problem. But let me say, I think the problem is not necessarily these gatherings. [00:46:02] Skye Jethani: I think they can be beautiful in many, and I’ve been a part of some that are just amazingly gorgeous times of communion with God. The problem is not the gatherings. I think the real problem is what we expect to get from them. And here’s the metaphor that I’ve written about elsewhere that I find helpful. [00:46:23] Skye Jethani: In 2nd Corinthians chapter 3, Paul references Moses on the mountaintop of Sinai when he meets with the Lord. And if you remember the story from Exodus 34, when Moses came down the mountain to meet with the people again, they all freaked out because his face was glowing, right? The radiance of God was shown on his face. [00:46:44] Skye Jethani: And in Exodus, it says that Moses put a veil over his face. So that people wouldn’t freak out anymore. Well, Paul, when he’s referencing this in 2 Corinthians 3, adds a little bit of rabbinical tradition into the story that’s not actually in Exodus, but Paul was familiar with. And he said, no, the real reason that Moses put a veil over his face is because he didn’t want the people to see that the glory was fading away and that is was only temporary. [00:47:09] Skye Jethani: And so when you piece these things together, you get a sense of what was really going on here is every time Moses would go up the mountain and meet with the Lord, he would take the veil off and he’d kind of get recharged another zap of God’s radiance. [00:47:20] Skye Jethani: And he’d come down and everyone would see, Oh, he’s been with the Lord. He’s glowing. And then he put the veil over cause it fades away. And I think that’s a little bit what we’ve gotten caught up into, is an external mountaintop kind of communion with God. Moses' experience on the mountain was real. It was genuine. It was good. It was full of God’s presence [00:47:38] Skye Jethani:. The problem that Paul’s pointing out is it always faded. It was temporary. And so you have to go back over and over and over again. And he contrasts that with the new covenant in Christ, which he said is not. about an external glory. It’s about his spirit within us, transforming us from one degree of glory to the next with ever increasing glory. So we can take the veil away. [00:47:59] Skye Jethani: And this is the core problem. I think in an awful lot of consumeristic American evangelical Christianity is essentially what we have done is rejected the new covenant in Christ in favor of the old covenant in Moses. And the reason is if we really buy the new covenant in Christ, You don’t need a 50-million-dollar mountaintop to encounter God, and you don’t need a dynamic preacher to encounter God, and you don’t need a huge worship band o genuinely encounter God. What do you need? You need to cultivate a deep abiding presence with his spirit, the kind that Jesus talks about in John 15. Abide in me and I will abide in you, just as a branch abides in its vine and bears fruit. That’s New Testament spirituality [00:48:53] Skye Jethani: But if you want a big ministry, and if you want thousands or even millions of people buying your albums and coming to your church and doing anything, then you need old testament spirituality. You need to convince people that the only place that they’re really going to have an experience of God is on the mountain that you’ve built and that you hold the toll road to accessing. That’s old testament spirituality and it’s really lucrative .But it’s not what we’re called to in Jesus. [00:49:13] Skye Jethani: So that’s what worries me is we’re creating kind of worship junkies where they need another hit and the glory fades and they’re like, Oh, my life, I felt really transformed after going to that big event, that big conference, that big whatever. But yeah, a week later, the glory fades and you’re back to the person you always were. [00:49:29] Skye Jethani: And then you go, I guess I need to go again, or I need a bigger thing or a better church or a better speaker. Whatever. And all the while we’re ignoring what we’re called to, which is who’s teaching me how to really commune with Jesus? Who’s teaching me how to pray? Who’s teaching me how to confess my sins? Who’s teaching me how to really live in step with the spirit day in and day out so that I might truly be transformed from one degree of glory to the next? [00:49:51] Skye Jethani: Very few of our mega ministry settings are designed to do that kind of work. They’re designed to give us a show and make us feel great. And to be fair, again, sometimes those are genuine encounters with God, just like Moses was, but it always fades. That’s the problem. [00:50:09] Julie Roys: I’m thinking back to when I was at Vineyard and there was a saying that John Wimber had that I absolutely loved. He would say pretty much everything else in our experience with God is something that he does for us. Worship is the one thing that we do to him, that we give back to him. And I think rightly understood, it comes from that communion with God that you have, that then when you have the chance to verbally express that, it's very much like in a marriage relationship. [00:50:44] Julie Roys: When you have that opportunity to physically express that love to your spouse, it’s extraordinarily meaningful because why? you already have that love that you experienced one for another. And so then that Physical expression becomes so meaningful But if it were just the physical expression without the love, I think that’s where a lot of people are at really in the way that they’re relating to God, [00:51:07] Skye Jethani: Right. Yeah, if we developed a genuine communion with God throughout the week, and then we gather with our sisters and brothers on the weekend and express that, that’s wonderful. I think too many of us again, schooled as consumers don’t have that communion all week long. And then we show up on Sunday going, light me up, make me feel good, give me that charge so that I can go into my week and feel encouraged or blessed or whatever it is I’m looking for. That’s not worship [00:51:34] Julie Roys: We don’t want to disciple people on how to maintain that in their private life because then they don’t need us. And yeah, so good. Well, there’s so much more we could talk about. Before I let you go talk just briefly about leadership and you’ve touched on it somewhat, about the celebrity pastors. You also used a term that’s become somewhat of a buzzword within the church is something called servant leadership. [00:52:05] Julie Roys: I have a feeling that’s much more about the upfront and not like the shadow mission shows whether that servant leadership is actually a thing. But talk about that leader and the approach that leader should have. How a leader should serve within a body, and why maybe we should be suspicious of those who come along and say, they’re visionary leaders and they’re going to impart their vision to us, for the church. And I know I just gave you a big one, didn’t I? [00:52:37] Skye Jethani: It is a big one. And there’s so many landmines in this. I generally don’t like using the language of servant leader because especially again, in American evangelical culture, the assumptions behind it are misunderstood. So let me unpack that a little bit. [00:52:57] Skye Jethani: Usually, when we think of servant leader, we think of a person with authority or power who nonetheless does humble acts of service, right? So it’s the pastor who’s out there shoveling the snow o ,the church leader, who’s still taking out the garbage and you go, gee, look at, pastor Steve, isn’t he humble? And he’s a servant leader and he’s doing that thing. Just like Jesus washed the disciples feet. In my view it’s great. I’m glad a pastor does that. I certainly wouldn’t want to disparage it, but I don’t think that’s really what servant leadership means. In John 13, that scene where Jesus washes the disciples feet, what he’s really doing there is not only humiliating himself, he’s humiliating his disciples. They had been arguing about who’s the greatest. And then Jesus strips naked and starts washing their feet, taking this grotesquely humiliating role. And he gets to Peter and Peter’s like, there’s no way you’re washing my feet. And he says, if you don’t let me wash your feet, you can have no place with me. [00:54:03] Skye Jethani: Which is like, wow, that’s a pretty strong statement. What’s going on there? In that culture the relationship between a rabbi and a disciple was well established, and a disciple’s identity was completely defined by who their rabbi was. So when Peter and John and James and the others, when they left their fishing boats and their toll booths and all the other things they were doing to become a follower of Rabbi Jesus, Peter especially was thinking, this is a pretty good deal, because I’m leaving a meager fishing business to become the disciple of the most powerful guy I’ve ever seen, who’s probably going to take over the world. [00:54:41] Skye Jethani: And that’s why, am I going to get to sit at your right on your left? Where am I going to get, like, this was a great deal. Cause my rabbi is like bigger than Moses. And then he sees his rabbi do the most humiliating and embarrassing task imaginable. And so what Jesus is saying to Peter is, If you think this is humiliating to me, it’s even more humiliating for you, Peter, because I’m your rabbi, which means you’re even lower than me. [00:55:05] Skye Jethani: And then at the end of the whole scene, he says, I, your teacher and rabbi have done this. You should do likewise. I think the message he’s really saying there is stop caring what others think about you. And love in a self-sacrificial way, take up your cross, die to yourself and follow me. [00:55:37] Skye Jethani: So when I then look at what does that mean in 21st century American church world, nobody is going to look at a pastor shoveling snow or taking out garbage and go, Oh my gosh, what a loser. Most church worlds go, Oh, that’s great. He’s doing something noble and kind and helping out and everything. No one’s going to think he’s a humiliated nothing because of that. So what I’m looking for is a pastor who has given up on their own reputation, who’s doesn’t care how many followers they have on Twitter, who’s not worried about, are they going to have a bestselling book? [00:56:00] Skye Jethani: Isn’t counting how many people showed up every Sunday because that’s a stroke to their ego. It’s where they have truly died to themselves. They know who they are and where they’re going, like Jesus did at the beginning of John 13. They know they belong to God, and they know they’ve been called by him, and they’re set free then to love sacrificially, without caring about their own reputation and ego. So that's, I think, a better definition of a servant leader, the person whose ego is not driving their ministry. That’s hard to spot without real relational connection and knowing somebody well. [00:56:44] Skye Jethani: I’m all for that kind of serpent leader and it’s rare. I’ve known men and women like that. Sometimes they have an ecclesiastical title. Sometimes they don’t. But they are the salt and light in the church today. And I pray that God will bring us more of them because we desperately need them in the American church. [00:57:02] Julie Roys: I love that. That’s so good, Skye. Thank you. Well, we have to wrap this because I’ve got my grandson’s first soccer game coming up and I’ve got to boot out of here to go see that. [00:57:15] Skye Jethani: I actually have a soccer game tonight too for my high school daughter. So I’ve got to do that too. [00:57:19] Julie Roys: But this has been really good and really rich. I so appreciate this book that you’ve written. Like we said, we’re offering that to anybody who gives a gift to The Roy’s Report this month. Just really grateful for you, Skye. And I think people, when they hear this, they’re like, wow, that guy’s in your church. And we have like so many people who are deep thinkers like this in our church. And it’s been an incredible gift. And it’s been an incredible thing to iron sharpening iron, which we’ve had that opportunity. So just feel blessed to have you as my brother and just appreciate this time we spent. [00:57:57] Skye Jethani: And thankful for all the good work you and your team at The Roy’s Report are doing in helping people navigate a really difficult season in the church and hopefully find healing and deeper communion with God and one another. It’s valuable, valuable work. I’m grateful to have a small little role in this podcast now as a part of it. [00:58:15] Julie Roys: And you’re going to have to watch this podcast now. It’ll be your first. [00:58:18] Skye Jethani: Yes, I probably will. [00:58:20] Julie Roys: Well, blessings to you. And thanks so much. [00:58:22] Skye Jethani: Thanks, Julie. [00:58:23] Julie Roys: And thanks so much for listening to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And just a reminder, we’re giving away Skye’s book, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? to anyone who gives a gift of 25 or more to The Roy’s Report this month. As I often say, we don’t have advertisers or big donors at The Roy’s Report. We simply have you. The people who care about reporting the truth and restoring the church. So if you’re passionate about our mission, please go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATED. Also, just a q
Today we're studying Acts 2:1-13, the passage that essentially describes the birth of the Christian church. It begins to answer an important question: What is the purpose of baptism with the Holy Spirit?--The PursueGOD Truth podcast is the “easy button” for making disciples – whether you're looking for resources to lead a family devotional, a small group at church, or a one-on-one mentoring relationship. Join us for new episodes every Tuesday and Friday. Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org.Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.Got questions or want to leave a note? Email us at podcast@pursueGOD.org.Donate Now --Today's lesson is exciting, because there's something for everyone:Those who are into this topicPentecostals, charismaticsThose who are freaked out by this topicChristians from more chill religious backgroundsNon-denoms, mainlineThose who are new to ChristianityNot sure what we're even talking aboutStart with this: “baptism with the HS” from a pentecostal perspectiveThe concept gained particular prominence during the early 20th-century Pentecostal revival, beginning with the Azusa Street Revival in 1906. It emphasized a powerful, personal experience of God's presence and the manifestation of spiritual gifts.The Assemblies of God is one of the largest Pentecostal denominations in the world, founded in 1914 in Hot Springs, Arkansas.Foursquare Church - Founded in 1923 by evangelist Aimee Semple McPherson in Los Angeles, California.In the mid-20th century, this emphasis spread beyond Pentecostal denominations to the broader Charismatic movement which embraced similar experiences of the Holy Spirit.The Jesus Movement in the 60's and 70's, along with Calvary Chapel. The Vineyard Movement began in the late 1970s and was founded by John Wimber. The first Vineyard church was officially established in 1982 in Anaheim, California.Catholic charismatic movementHillsong, Bethel Church, etc.In these environments you'll hear about “baptism with the HS”There's one main evidence: speaking in tonguesSo it becomes a huge focus in these churchesOften becomes the main thingIt'll freak you out if you've never seen it beforeBut what does the Bible say about it? That's what we'll answer today: What is the purpose of baptism with the Holy Spirit?We don't believe things based on how weird or normal they seemWe look to God and his Word in all we do (and believe) First of all, “baptism with the HS” is in the Bible, not just made up by the pentecostals and charismaticsThe term was coined by Jesus! Acts 1:5 (NLT) “John baptized with water, but in just a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”This is why the disciples went back to JerusalemPracticed disciplines of connection, prayer, Bible studyWaited on God with great expectationBut not exactly sure what it would look likeBaptism with the HS was a biblical concept way before it was a pentecostal thingThe real question is what is the purpose? That's what our text will answer todayBecause the Pentecostal movement traces its roots back to Acts ch...
Continuing the conversation regarding what makes a church healthy, Wes and Luke discuss other values and practices that should shape our churches to be more healthy. Read more on this in Luke's article: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com/p/10-things-john-wimber-looked-for ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
What are the characteristics or qualities that indicate a church's health? While many focus purely on numbers, what are more important values that should be found in local churches? On this episode of the podcast, Wes & Luke interact with John Wimber's values that he looked for in a local church. Read more on this in Luke's article: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com/p/10-things-john-wimber-looked-for ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!
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