Podcasts about John Wimber

Michael Miller of Remnant Radio shares a bit about his life and how he processes when to speak out about spiritual abuse and other challenges facing the Church. We touch on Alan Scott, Dr. Michael Brown, and Upper Room and much more! You can find out more about Michael here: https://www.thomasministries.org  ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

Follow Me?   Our Mouth - luke 6:45   Our Money - Mt 6:21   Our Time - Eph 5:15-17   1) What is the greatest love in my life?   “Show me where you spend your time, money, and energy, and I will show you what you worship” John Wimber   2) What is the greatest message of my life?   Phil 4:9   3) Who am I influencing with my life?   1 Cor 10:32 - 11:1     4) Who is influencing my life?   Jn 15:25-26   Isa 40:28-31

Sermon Summary: Genesis 49 Andy's sermon focused on Genesis 49, the chapter where Jacob, nearing the end of his life at 147 years old, blesses his sons and prophesies about the future of their tribes. The sermon explored the themes of God's grace in using flawed individuals, the importance of looking to God for deliverance, and the significance of waiting patiently for God's timing. Andy began by reflecting on how words spoken to us, especially in our youth, can profoundly shape our lives. He connected this to the Genesis passage, where Jacob's words to his sons would define their destinies. He noted that while some blessings were influenced by past actions (Reuben, Simeon, and Levi), others, like Judah, contained prophetic statements about the coming Messiah. The sermon highlighted the contrast between the initial blessings, which were shaped by past negative actions, and the later ones, which contained prophetic hope. Andy pointed out the prophetic statement about Judah: "The scepter will not depart from Judah nor the ruler's staff from between his feet until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his." He explained that this refers to Jesus and the future day when all nations will bow down to Him. He also noted the extensive blessings heaped upon Joseph, pondering if this indicated continued favoritism or recognition of Joseph's role in saving God's people. A central theme of the sermon emerged from Genesis 49:18: "I look for your deliverance, O Lord." Andy described this as a pivotal moment in the chapter, a prayer for times of desperation. He likened it to the simple, heartfelt prayer, "Oh God, oh God, oh God, help," emphasizing that such prayers are valid and necessary, especially when facing challenges and uncertainties. He stressed that Jacob, even while giving these grand pronouncements, recognized the future challenges and weaknesses of his descendants, and the need for God's intervention. Andy then elaborated on four key aspects of this phrase: A Prayer for Times of Desperation: Andy emphasized that this prayer is relevant to our current times. He encouraged the congregation to cry out to God for help, whether for personal struggles, the future of the church, or the well-being of their children and grandchildren. He reiterated that Christians are not "goody-goodies" but flawed individuals whom God uses. He stressed that the good news of Jesus is that God loves to use people who are "messed up" and "screw up". He stated that God has come to us, taking the initiative through Jesus' death and resurrection, and that our response is to acknowledge and rely on Him. A Foundation: Andy described this phrase as a bedrock statement that should undergird everything we do. He drew a parallel to Jesus' parable of the wise man who built his house on the rock (Matthew 7:24-27), emphasizing the importance of putting God's words into practice. He urged the congregation to make "I look for your deliverance, O Lord" a central part of their lives, a constant reminder of their dependence on God, regardless of whether things are going well or poorly. He asked the congregation to consider what their driving force in life is, and to place this phrase at the center of their lives. Looking and Waiting: Andy acknowledged the difficulty of waiting, contrasting it with the instant gratification promoted by modern society. He reminded the congregation that God's timing is different from ours, referencing the story of Abraham and the long wait for his descendants. He challenged them to consider investing in things they might not see come to fruition in their lifetime, echoing Jacob's prophetic words about the Messiah, which he would not witness. He quoted several Psalms and a passage from Romans about waiting patiently for the Lord: Psalm 37:7 ("Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for Him"), Psalm 40:1 ("I waited patiently for the Lord"), and Romans 8:25 ("But if we hope for what we don't have, we wait for it patiently."). He warned against the pitfalls of trying to force things to happen or becoming discouraged and abandoning faith. He used the analogy of police horse training, where the horse is trained to stay focused and not be distracted, to illustrate the importance of building practices into our lives that keep us focused on God. He referenced Hebrews 12:2 ("Fix your eyes on Jesus"). All Points to Jesus: Andy concluded by emphasizing that Jesus is the ultimate source of deliverance and salvation. He reiterated that humanity is cut off from God due to sin, but Jesus came to pay the price and reconcile us to God. He stressed that Jesus delivers us not only from the consequences of our rebellion but also from the pain, hurt, trauma, and negative reactions that result from it. He called on those exploring Christianity to recognize Jesus' central role in salvation. In his closing prayer, Andy led the congregation in a time of reflection and confession. He invited them to consider areas in their lives where they needed God's deliverance, including healing, the effects of negative words, destructive behaviors, a lack of focus on God, and a desire for immediate results. He also prayed for those considering making a first-time commitment to Jesus. He concluded by asking God to "come and have your way" in their lives. Bible References: Genesis 49 Hebrews 11 Matthew 7:24-27 Psalm 37:7 Psalm 40:1 Romans 8:25 Hebrews 12:2 Transcript Freedom, freedom. Good morning everybody. Good morning. Good morning guys, 146. If you've got a Bible, if you want to turn to me to Genesis chapter 49, we've almost made it. Yay! 18 months now of working through Genesis and we've almost made it. I was chatting to Sheila on Thursday, Sheila Wingrove. So if you don't know, Sheila Wingrove has produced this amazing display in the foyer, right? I know we all rush into church because we want to be here, so we rush past it. But please take your time to study that and be amazed. It's a fantastic piece of work and we need to figure out how we keep it for posterity because it's such a beautiful thing. She was chatting to me on Thursday saying she's got no room left, so I'm not allowed to say anything this morning. Because there's no space to put anything. Good gospel here. But amazing, you know. So just two weeks left and then we're all itching to see how we're going to do services that only last an hour and a half. Two on a Sunday. I don't know how we're going to do that, but we'll see. Easy. Easy. So Genesis 49, I don't know about you, can you remember stuff that perhaps your mum or your dad said to you when you were younger? Anybody remember things they used to say? Good things? No hands. Bad things? A few hands. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We remember, don't we? I can remember. Is this me? Do I need to stand still? That would be good. I'll try and stand still. I can remember mum used to say, you know, when I was a lot younger, wait till your father gets home. Anybody have that? We're a generation, aren't we? My dad always used to say when I'd done something well, he'd always say, nine out of ten, because there's always room for improvement. And things like that. But perhaps a teacher, you know, you remember what your teachers used to say to you, you know, must try harder. Could do better. And things like that. And those words can kind of stick, can't they? Yeah, sorry about that. So those words stick with us, don't they? And they kind of can shape our lives. But, you know, most of us have had things spoken to us that did that type of thing. In fact, we had that fantastic Good Friday service that those guys did standing up here. And they talked about some of those things that had affected their lives. And they talked about, remember, they flipped those cards over and they talked about how Jesus was dealing with those things. In exactly the same way we've heard Evie describe the same thing this morning. In exactly the same way I responded to some of the stuff that my parents had said. You know, we don't want to be men and women who let those things restrict what God has in store for you and for me. And so here we are, we're reaching the end of Jacob's life. And as we've seen throughout Genesis, it's a significant moment when someone dies and they pass on this blessing to their children. We've seen it from Abraham to Isaac, Isaac to Jacob and Esau, remember all of that. And now here we are with Jacob himself doing it. And Cornelius taught us last week how he did it to his grandchildren first, Joseph's kids. And then we come to this chapter and he does it to the rest of his sons. So I'm just going to read it, if that's okay. I might read quite quickly because it is quite long. But I think it's good to read the Word of God at times. So Genesis 49. Then Jacob called for his sons and said, gather around so I can tell you what will happen to you in days to come. Imagine your dad saying that to you. That would be an amazing moment. Assemble and listen, sons of Jacob, listen to your father Israel. Reuben, you are my firstborn, my might, the first sign of my strength. Excelling in honor, excelling in power, turbulent as the waters, you will no longer excel. For you went up onto your father's bed, onto my couch and defiled it. Simeon and Levi are brothers, their swords are weapons of violence. Let me not enter their council, let me not join their assembly. For they have killed men in their anger and hamstrung oxen as they pleased. Cursed be their anger so fierce and their fury so cruel. I will scatter them in Jacob and disperse them in Israel. Wow. Judah, your brothers will praise you. Your hand will be on the neck of your enemies. Your father's sons will bow down to you. You are a lion's cub, O Judah. You return from the prey, my son. Like a lion he crouches and lies down, like a lioness. Who dares to rouse him? The scepter will not depart from Judah nor the ruler's staff from between his feet until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his. He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch. He will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. His eyes will be darker than wine and his teeth whiter than milk. I'm not quite sure what that means. Zebulun will live by the seashore and become a haven for ships. His border will extend towards Sidon. Issachar is a royal bone donkey lying down between two saddlebags. When he sees how good is his resting place and how pleasant is his land, he will bend his shoulder to the burden and submit to forced labor. Dan will provide justice for his people as one of the tribes of Israel. Dan will be a serpent by the roadside, a viper along the path. It bites the horse's heels so its riders tumble backwards and look for your deliverance, oh Lord. Gad will be attacked by a band of raiders, but he will attack them at their heels. Asher's food will be rich, he will provide delicacies fit for a king. Naftali is a doe set free that bears beautiful fawns. Joseph is a fruitful vine, a fruitful vine near a spring whose branches climb over a wall. With bitterness, archers attacked him. They shot at him with hostility, but his bow remained steady. His strong arms stayed limber because of the hand of the mighty one of Jacob, because of the shepherd, the rock of Israel, because of your Father's God who helps you, because of the Almighty who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and the womb. Your Father's blessings are greater than the blessings of the ancient mountains, than the bounty of the age-hold hills. Let all of these rest on the head of Joseph, on the brow of the prince among his brothers. Benjamin is a ravenous wolf. In the morning, he devours the prey. In the evening, he divides the plunder. All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father said to them when he blessed them, giving each the blessing appropriate to him. Then he gave them these instructions. I am about to be gathered to my people. Bury me with my fathers in the cave of the field of Ephron the Hittite, the cave in the field of Machpelah near Mamre in Canaan, which Abraham bought as a burial place from Ephron the Hittite along with the field. There Abraham and his wife Sarah were buried, there Isaac and his wife Rebekah were buried, and there I buried Leah. The field and the cave in it were brought from the Hittites. When Jacob had finished giving instructions to his sons, he drew his feet up onto the bed, breathed his last, and was gathered to his people. That is the way to go. That's what I want to do. Definitely. Jacob at this point is 147 years old, and as we've seen over the last weeks and months, what a life. You know, struggling at birth with his brother, grasping his ankle as they're born, wheedling Esau out of his birthright and deceiving his dad to obtain the blessing, having to flee the family home, having to work for his uncle for 14 years so he could marry the woman of his dreams, being tricked into marrying a different woman in the meantime, and all that kind of stuff, and then his uncle deceiving him back as well and having to flee his uncle because of what happened, the meeting with Esau to try and patch things up and then never seeing Esau again, and then outliving his wives. This really bad family example we saw of having favourites amongst his kids, not a good idea, and thinking Joseph was then dead all of these years to finally be deceived by his own sons, and then having to leave the land of God's promise and come to Egypt. What a life. What a life. But at the same time, what we have also seen is God at work in this man's life, and God in his grace, choosing to fulfil his own plans and purposes through the life of Jacob. And that is a weird one for us, isn't it? Because what it says is that God is about using people that are messed up, that screw up. The Bible calls it sin. We might have other language. But he loves to take those people and use them for his glory and for his purposes. And that's such a repeat theme through this whole book, and I know I said it probably the last five times I've spoken, but it is such an important theme that we grasp that because we have to help people understand that people who are Christians are not goody-goodies. They're bady-baddies, right? We are bady-baddies, right? You know, we screw up. We mess up. We don't like to talk about it, and we don't own up. But we develop masks and other approaches to hide that. But we are screwed up, and we're shafted, if we're brutally honest. And the reality is God has come, and he loves to use people that are exactly like that. And that's the good news of Jesus. So it's so important that we grasp that. And so, yeah, here we are at the end of Jacob's life. He's speaking about the future and about defining his sons, what their families will become and what the tribes that come from those families will become. And it's interesting, and we're not going to go into all of them because time does not permit, and I'm not quite sure what I say about some of them, but it's interesting because those opening ones, that Reuben, Simeon, and Levi, their blessing is dictated by what they have done in their lives. That's how Jacob speaks to them. What they have done, the bad things that they have done in their lives, has an immediate repercussion on the so-called blessing that he gives them that's going to shape how they will be. Interesting. Then we get to Judah, and it's completely different. We begin to see in what he says about Judah the prophetic statements about a Messiah coming. We're in Genesis. We're in the beginning. And we still see, we begin to see here, there's an inkling in his eye. There's a twinkling in the distance. There is something happening that is going to happen. And we read this beautiful statement that the scepter, the government, if you like, will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler star from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs. He's talking about Jesus. And the obedience of the nations will be his. There is coming a day when the obedience of the nations will belong to Jesus, and all nations will bow down to him. There is coming a day. And Jacob, right here in Genesis, he doesn't understand it, as Hebrews 11 tells us. He doesn't get it, but he's prophesying it. He's speaking it out in faith. He's certainly not going to see it in his few hours he's got left. But he's speaking out in faith because he sees that happening. And so there's this amazing prophetic statement in Judah. And then there's the one about Joseph near the end. There is so much blessing that he oodles on Joseph. He makes you think, is he still thinking that Joseph is his favorite here? Is that what's going on? Because he's really ladling on thick the blessings on Joseph. Or is it perhaps because actually Joseph is the one out of all those brothers that has rescued them and actually is part and parcel of the purposes of God to help God's people survive through this period of famine and obviously we saw through the whole story of Joseph how God used him. I don't know which it is. But it's interesting he calls him prince amongst his brothers. But what I want to do just briefly is hoe him. There's a little verse I read in the middle which kind of leaps out because it's out of context of everything else that's going on. He's giving his blessings to his people, to his kids, and he's telling them what's going to happen. And right in the middle in verse 18 we get this little phrase, I look for your deliverance, O Lord. That's a bit weird, isn't it? You think he's on a roll. He's on a train. I've got 12 sons to get through. He's 147. Can't I remember all their names? I forgot the right one with the right name. And all that sort of stuff. You think he'd be concentrating on getting all of that out. And then right in the middle, I look for your deliverance, O Lord. Or a different translation says, I wait for your salvation, O Lord. And why does he do that? It's almost like as he thinks about the future and as he thinks about the children of God and the people of God, that maybe God is showing him something about the challenges that lie ahead. And that he himself is aware of the struggles and the challenges they'll face and the hardship of God's people being true to him and not being overwhelmed by their enemies, not being led astray by other nations or other societies, or not having their faith and their trust in God diluted by what is going on around them. And he cries out in the middle, God, I look for your deliverance, Lord. Unless you do this, Lord, it isn't going to happen. Unless the Lord builds the house, it's builder's labor in vain. God, unless salvation comes from you, there's no hope, no matter what we say. And so four things quickly. Number one, this is a prayer for times of desperation. And there's no time like now for a time of desperation. Right in the middle of blessing his kids, he cries out. It reminds me many, many, many years ago of listening to John Wimber talk about when you're going to pray for someone for healing and you've not seen it before and you're not used to it and you have no idea what's going to happen and you want to pray for it and you're going to step out. We go in a room and we pray, oh God, oh God, oh God, oh God, help. That's all you need to do. If you're struggling with praying, I want to encourage you. You haven't got to pray great long prayers and quote loads of scripture and shout to the ceiling, oh God, oh God, oh God, oh God, help. It's right where it starts. And that is what is happening here. That's what Jacob's doing. He's explaining that out and it's like as he blesses his children and he thinks about their future and the future of the tribes of Israel that despite such big statements he's making over their lives, he sees something of the challenges. He sees their weaknesses. He sees the likelihood of them being influenced by society around them. He sees the frailties of their own heart. And so he cries out, God, you have got to come if this is going to work. Lord, if you are going to have a people that are yours, if your Messiah is going to come through Judah as he's just prophesied, then God, you have got to come and do this. Maybe even he's reflecting on his own life, his own awareness of mucking things up. And perhaps after all these years, he could now stand with a little bit of integrity and understand he's only where he is because of God delivering him and the salvation of God coming to him. So as you think about your future, whatever age you are this morning, as you think about your future, let's get a hold of this as a phrase to say, God, we need your deliverance. God, I need your deliverance and your salvation. As we think about the future of the church here, and yeah, we might get excited, at least for a little bit, while we do two services and a major building project and see people saved and more people getting baptized and people saved and added and more groups starting in the church and the impact on the community growing and growing and growing. We need to come back to, oh God, we need your deliverance. It is you, Lord. It is you. As we think about our children, our grandchildren, oh Lord, I look to you for your deliverance, Lord. I look to you for your salvation. It's a great prayer in times of desperation because for his kids it's not their skills, it's not their character, it's not their efforts, it's not even the prophetic word that he brings, but it is God who is the deliverer. It is God who is the bringer of salvation. And that is what is so special and unique about Christianity. And you might not be a Christian this morning, you're just exploring it and trying to understand it, and you might be chatting to some of your friends, but what does it really mean and what is it like? And you come along because you're just dipping a toe in the water. And I want to just labor the point that the uniqueness of it is that God has come to us, not the other way around. You can look at what goes on here this morning and I think our singing and the rest of it is kind of us trying to make ourselves right before God. Because it can look like that, and it does look like that, but that isn't what's going on. What has happened is Jesus has taken the initiative and he has come 2,000 years ago. He died on a cross for the sins of the world, including your sins and my sins, to put us right with God and he has taken that initiative, and three days later God has raised him from the dead. And now death is no longer the finality that it once was in our thinking because Jesus has broken that. He has taken the initiative and come to us, and what we do in a meeting like this, I hope in the morning, is we are responding to that. We are not trying to make our way to God, but we are responding to what he has done to us and for us and his love for us. So number one, it's a prayer in times of desperation. Number two, I look for your deliverance, O Lord. It's a foundation. It's like a bedrock statement that undergirds everything that we do. Jesus told that parable, didn't he, that the wise man built his house upon the rock. And he told us that not so that we could learn a little song, but he taught us that because he says, what, the wise man is what? The one who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice. Exactly. He puts them into practice. And so this statement is exactly like that. We need to figure out how do we put this into practice that we look to God for your deliverance, that we wait for your salvation. It's like a statement that needs to be brought front and center to our lives, whether we are struggling with things, whether things are going well as the church moves forward and as we make changes about what's happening, as we make greater inroads with the gospel in the life of the community here, and perhaps as we even think, dare to think, oh, this is going quite well, or whatever. It's a reminder not to get smug, not to get complacent, but to come back and say, you know what? I look for your deliverance, Lord. I wait for your salvation. And we need to bring that front and center of our lives and not let it compete with other statements and other things. You know, what is it that ultimately drives you forward and drives me forward? What makes you tick? If you could have one sentence over your life, what would it be? And whereabouts would this fit in that context? What is it that, despite everything, we need to return to time and time again? What is it we wait for? Is it our paycheck? Is it our benefits landing? Is it the next holiday? Is it the next thing? Or do we wait for your salvation, Lord? Do we look for your deliverance? You see, Jacob can prophesy amazing things, but what is it he puts right in the middle, like the pivot of which all of these things are commenting on? Things can go well. What does he return to? Some of those blessings are good things, but what does he come back to? Things can go pear-shaped. What does he come back to? We can make all the changes we want as a church, but what do we return to? We look out for your deliverance, O Lord. And we need to be men and women grappling with getting that in the front and centre of our lives. And as we think about Jordan thought and Baitmore and the edges and the surrounding area, God, we look for your deliverance. We wait for your salvation. We can try all the programmes, all the groups, whatever we want to, but unless God moves, there is nothing there. It is not going to happen. And because we are caught up with the plans and purposes of God, we've got to come back to this. Lord, it is your deliverance we are looking for. Turn your eyes towards Jesus. Look full in his wonderful face. And the things of earth will grow straight deep in, in the light of his glory and grace. Absolutely. Hope you knew that in 146 as well. It's so true, you know, and we need, the more we can come back to that, I think the better place we will be. The third thing about this statement is, you know, it's about looking and it's about waiting. Anybody enjoy waiting? There's no hands here. We don't do it, do we? You know, try telling a toddler to wait. We went to Yorkshire Wildlife yesterday and our granddaughter was with us and, you know, I want a biscuit now, now, now. I want a drink now, now. I want this now. You know, try telling a toddler to wait. It just doesn't work, does it? But then, actually, I'm not sure how much better it gets as we get older. Because we want the result, don't we? We don't want the waiting bit. We want the result at the end. That is what we're looking for. The whole of the advertising industry that we are all succumbing to is geared on giving you a result as fast as possible. Have this and it will change your life. Have this and it will make your life better. Instant success, instant access, et cetera, et cetera. Whole of technology, you know, on our phones, on our watches. It's all about instantaneous stuff all the time. And so the idea of waiting is kind of drifting away from life in general and the stuff that we have to wait for becomes a real pain. Well, if we get ourselves in a position where we say, waiting for your salvation of God is a real pain, then we've lost the plot along the way. Because God wants to work in our hearts and sift our hearts to cause us to become many women who learn what it is to wait for Him. Another thing Genesis teaches us is that God's time and timing is not ours. Remember when God first spoke to Abraham, however many months ago it was, and gave him the promises that your descendants will be as numerous as the sand on the seashore. Here we are, 232 years later, and his descendants are 66 that have gone to Egypt. 232 years. That should cause us to think a little bit about, we want to see God at work, we absolutely look for God's deliverance and salvation, and we want to pray and play our part in that, but maybe the great things that God is going to do are going to be after we've gone and been with Him, after we've hooked our legs onto the bed and gone to be with our fathers. Maybe that's when it's going to happen. That speaks, that's a challenge to me, because I think, what do I want to invest in and put my time in that I actually won't see? It's a challenge, isn't it? But he teaches, here's Jacob prophesying about the coming Messiah thousands of years later that he isn't going to see. Psalm 37 verse 7 says, Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for Him. Do not fret when people succeed in their ways. That's a good statement, that's a good one to put over our doorways, isn't it? Do not fret when people succeed. Psalm 40 verse 1, I waited patiently for the Lord. He turned to me and heard my cry. Well, Paul writes to the church in Rome in chapter 8 verse 25 says, But if we hope for what we don't have, we wait for it patiently. Waiting and patience is a fundamental part of following Jesus. Hope, you know, we have to get a hold of that. And the impact of the world around us on that is that we don't like doing that. And so we need to bring that front and centre. And I guess there's two pitfalls, you know, one is we try and make it happen because we don't like waiting. So we end up a bit like Abraham having Ishmael, we've done it ourselves but it wasn't the right thing. Or we get so bored waiting we forget about it and go off and do something else. I remember when I was a child, I went to what is now called Urban Saints, had a less politically correct name in those days. But we went to see the police horse training centre in Manchester, because that's where I lived at the time. And it was interesting because you imagine a group of like 11 and 12 year olds, spotty 11 and 12 year olds, and we were all given flags way bigger than this and whistles to blow, whistles to blow, big flags to wave like this. And there's two lines of kids down like that. And then this guy, policeman comes along on the horse and the horse just, we're all looking, blowing the whistles and all that. And the horse just calmly straight down because he'd been trained to do that, because they used them in riots and football crowds at the time and all that kind of stuff. And it was fascinating to see, although it's still etched in my brain. But that is what it is, it's a little bit like, we've got to build things into our lives that stop us being distracted from this call of God to wait on him patiently and to pursue him patiently. Fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. Otherwise these distractions will come in. And finally, fourthly, this all points to, this is all about Jesus. He is the one who brings deliverance. He is the one who brings salvation. So we wait for him and he brings that deliverance. If you're not a Christian this morning, then again I want to say, we're cut off from God, that's our starting place. Our sins have cut us off from God and we ignore him and we act as if there is no God and we act as if, you know, he's certainly not going to be angry with us when we do things that are wrong and that we're under his judgment and we're only of his anger. And yet Jesus has come and paid that price for you and for me, the ultimate cost and that great exchange has taken place and what we deserve he gets and what we don't deserve we get has taken place. He's paid that price for you and for me and to unpack that. Therefore Jesus is not only the one that does that, he is the one who brings deliverance or salvation from the effects of that rebellion against God in our lives. The pain, the hurt, the trauma, the rejection, the impact of all of that on our character and our lives, he is the one. So we look to him for deliverance, for salvation. You know, as Evie beautifully explained this morning, that's what she was describing, how Jesus and the Word of God has brought about a change in our life, things he used to listen to. Actually, she's bringing the Word of God to apply to trump that because that's what it does. The love of God trumps that and we need to be men and women that are constantly coming back to that. So Jesus is the one who brings deliverance to those things but he also brings deliverance from the reaction we have of those things that have affected us, those negative things that lead us to turning in on ourselves, to shutting others out, to putting on masks, to taking addictive substances, to abuse that we do or that is done to us. And so he is the one that we look to for deliverance and for salvation this morning. And so just by way of response, as I finish, in Hebrews 11, the writer of the Hebrews says this, he says, by faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons and worshipped as he leaned on the top of the staff. And talks about how Jacob, along with all those other old patriarchs of the faith, as they're called in Hebrews 11, were looking for God's deliverance, for God's salvation. They didn't see it in their lifetime but they were looking for it and its completion is found in Jesus. I wonder if I could stand please, I'd just like to pray. I'm not sure how well I've done this but I mean, the chapter is about a blessing on 12 guys but right in the middle is this key pivot point that actually it is God we need to look to for our deliverance and for salvation. And as I think about it, I just want to be really practical here and I just want us to pray together. I thought of a few things where we need to perhaps be applying that to our own lives. One of these might be relevant for you. I just want you to be honest as we stand here before God. Maybe it's healing. Jesus commands us to pray for the sick. He doesn't command us to heal the sick. That's his business whether he does it or not. He asks us to pray for the sick. And there can be a tendency for us as God's people to wane from praying for the sick for various reasons. So maybe you're here this morning and maybe there's something physical, something mental, something emotional that you are healing for. We look to you for deliverance, Lord. This chapter is about the prophetic words that Jacob speaks over his sons that then describes how their lives and their families' lives would pan out. For some of us this morning, negative words have been spoken to us that we still carry, that still shape us and still prevent us from entering into all the goodness that God has for us. We look to your deliverance, Lord. For some of us, those words have shaped our identity. There was a food bank visit over the road from here and while I was just talking to the lady, I chatted to the girl who was about 8 or 9 years old. We were talking about school and she said, I'm no good at school because my mum says I'm stupid. Yeah, exactly. But for some of us here this morning, words like that have impacted us deeply and are keeping us away from the good things that God has in store. We look to you for your deliverance, Lord. For some of us, our reaction to those bad things that have happened in our lives is that we have ourselves embraced destructive and negative patterns of behaviour or addictions or other things that have harmed us or harmed others. We look for your deliverance, Lord. For some of us, perhaps the thing that God is highlighting is that you've stopped looking at God as the thing that needs to be front and centre. You've stopped looking at God as the thing that needs to be front and centre in your life and you've allowed other things to creep in and nudge that off centre. And this morning God is saying, hey, what about bringing me back? Bringing me back front and centre. We look for your deliverance, Lord. Maybe for the first time, maybe you've been coming along for a while and you've never made that decision to say, yeah, I want to submit to Jesus and I want to go for it with him and I want to invite him into my life. We wait for your salvation, Lord. And for some, the desire in our hearts, if we're honest, is still for immediate results, even in the church, even in our Christianity. We want the next thing, the next thing and the next thing. And today God wants to do a work in your heart. We look for your deliverance, Lord. We wait for your salvation, Lord. Father, we want to pray, Lord. We want to thank you, you treat us so gently, with such love and such care. And Father, as we stand before you this morning, you know the state of our hearts, you know the issues, you know the things that are going on, you see it all. And Lord, we stand here honestly before you and just pray, Father, come and have your way. Come and have your way in our lives, Lord. Lord, we'll do a work in our hearts as we stand here this morning. We want to say, Father, we look for your deliverance, Lord. We look to you. We don't want to look to other things. And we want to say, Father, we wait for your salvation. We don't want to try anything ourselves. But we call on you today, Lord. We call on you, Father, for your salvation in our own lives, in the lives of our families, in the lives of our children, in the lives of our grandchildren, Lord, in the lives of our neighbors, in the lives of the homes around here. Father, we call on you for your salvation. We call on you, Lord, for the lives of the people that are in the schools in this area. And Father, we pray, God, Lord, help us to keep our eyes fixed on you. And Father, we wait for you. In Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Thank you, Andy. Thank you, Andy. Thank you, Andy. Let's, I just feel in the four instances...

Young and impressionable, Susan was drawn to the creative and spiritual environment of a church called the International House of Prayer in Kansas City (IHOPKC). She was soon courted by leadership and then isolated her through "special mentoring," with claims that God revealed the IHOP leaders her unique spiritual destiny. The philosophy its pastor, Mike Bickle, and ultimately the New Apostolic Reformation made questioning leadership equivalent to questioning God himself. Unlike Bickle, John Wimber of The Vineyard Movement established accountability structures and rejected many NAR excesses. Susan finally begins to question the teachings. Part One of Two.Paul Martin is a former pastor who works as a human rights advocate. He holds undergraduate and graduate degrees in philosophy from UCLA and Talbot School of Theology at Biola University.The Wolves is for those interested in religion, Jesus, or the psychology around power abuse. It is also for survivors of trauma, including spiritual abuse. Covering current cases of abuse in the church today, The Wolves will highlight the sinister paradox of those who display sincerity, conviction, and knowledge and who can even claim to hear the very voice of God himself, YET at the very same time abuse they claim to love.For information, visit www.thewolvespodcast.comContact Paul Martin at paul@paulmartin.org

Prophetic News Radio-The John Wimber family lawsuit against Alan Scott. I play some audio of Stephanie Wimber Ruppe and Her husband Donnie from a recent interview on YouTube and a discussion about the history of Calvary Chapel, Lonnie Frisbee and John Wimber.

Sunday 23rd March 2025 - West SiteSpeaker - Andy ChapmanAndy and his wife, Bethan lead Riverside Vineyard in Feltham, near Heathrow Airport.Andy takes a look at a part of the ministry of the Church that Vineyard founder John Wimber called "The Stuff" - Healing the sick..._________________Mark 5 v 21-4321)  When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered round him while he was by the lake. 22)  Then one of the synagogue leaders, named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. 23)  He pleaded earnestly with him, ‘My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.' 24)  So Jesus went with him.A large crowd followed and pressed round him. 25)  And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26)  She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27)  When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28)  because she thought, ‘If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.' 29)  Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.30)  At once Jesus realised that power had gone out from him. He turned round in the crowd and asked, ‘Who touched my clothes?'31)  ‘You see the people crowding against you,' his disciples answered, ‘and yet you can ask, “Who touched me?”'32)  But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. 33)  Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. 34)  He said to her, ‘Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.'35)  While Jesus was still speaking, some people came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. ‘Your daughter is dead,' they said. ‘Why bother the teacher anymore?'36)  Overhearing what they said, Jesus told him, ‘Don't be afraid; just believe.'37)  He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother of James. 38)  When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39)  He went in and said to them, ‘Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.' 40)  But they laughed at him.After he put them all out, he took the child's father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41)  He took her by the hand and said to her, ‘Talitha koum!' (which means ‘Little girl, I say to you, get up!'). 42)  Immediately the girl stood up and began to walk around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. 43)  He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat.___________________Recorded at West Site - 23Mar2025

Sign Up for Prayer⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://orbisprayer.org/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Donate to Orbis⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://subsplash.com/orbisministries/giveIn this episode of God is Not a Theory with Ken Fish, Ken sits down with Tim Wimber, son of John and Carol Wimber, to discuss his personal journey, his family's legacy, and his evolving role in ministry. Tim shares intimate stories about growing up as the son of John Wimber, his struggles with expectations, and how he is stepping into his own calling.This episode is packed with never-before-heard stories about the early Vineyard days, the unexpected challenges of being in a famous ministry family, and what Tim envisions for the future of the Church and revival.Key Topics Discussed:What was it like growing up as John Wimber's son?How did the early Vineyard movement shape modern charismatic worship?What challenges come with being in a ministry family?Why is Tim stepping into a new season of ministry now?What does the future of revival and the church look like?How to Engage with Orbis:- Check out Ken's book,⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ On the Road with the Holy Spirit⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Partner with Orbis Financially⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠-⁠⁠⁠⁠ Are you interested in learning about Holy Spirit-led ministry? Visit Orbis School of Ministry at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://orbissm.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or email our Registrar, Jo McKay, at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠jo@orbisminstries.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠-⁠⁠⁠⁠ Upcoming Orbis Ministries overseas ministry trips are posted on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠orbisministries.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ under the Train-Join an International Ministry Trip link behind the registration/login portal.- Do you want to join Ken's private Facebook discussion group, "God is not a Theory?" Please send a Facebook Direct Message to Bryan Orbis and a friend request to be added to it.

Sign Up for Prayer⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://orbisprayer.org/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Donate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠https://subsplash.com/orbisministries/give In this episode of God is Not a Theory with Ken Fish, Ken and Grant Pemberton tackle a topic that has deeply influenced modern charismatic and prophetic circles: Word Curses. They unpack the history, theology, and potential misuse of this concept, exploring its roots in the Word of Faith movement and its connections to Pentecostal theology, new thought philosophy, and biblical interpretation. The discussion highlights the power of words, faith, confession, and the misconceptions that can arise when people fear that simply speaking a negative statement could alter reality. This episode challenges listeners to examine how faith, healing, and spoken words work in a biblical framework while dispelling fear-based teachings that can create anxiety rather than confidence in God's sovereignty. Key Topics Discussed: The origins of Word Curses in the Word of Faith movement. The theological nuances of spoken words and their spiritual impact. Kenneth Hagin, John Wimber, and the Pentecostal influence on faith and confession. The dangers of fear-based theology in healing and prayer. The balance between faith, wisdom, and God's sovereignty. How to Engage with Orbis: - Check out Ken's book, ⁠⁠⁠On the Road with the Holy Spirit⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - For more information on the Travel Grant Match to keep Ken's travel down in 2025, send an email to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠bryan@orbisministries.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - ⁠⁠⁠Partner with Orbis Financially⁠⁠⁠ -⁠⁠⁠⁠ Are you interested in learning about Holy Spirit-led ministry? Visit Orbis School of Ministry at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://orbissm.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or email our Registrar, Jo McKay, at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠jo@orbisminstries.org⁠⁠⁠ -⁠⁠⁠⁠ Upcoming Orbis Ministries overseas ministry trips are posted on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠orbisministries.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ under the Train-Join an International Ministry Trip link behind the registration/login portal. - Do you want to join Ken's private Facebook discussion group, "God is not a Theory?" Please send a Facebook Direct Message to Bryan Orbis and a friend request to be added to it.

In this episode of God is Not a Theory with Ken Fish, recorded during the second service at Franklin Vineyard Church, Ken Fish and Grant Pemberton reflect on the foundational values of the Vineyard movement. The discussion explores the church's emphasis on healing the sick, casting out demons, and impartation ministry, drawing from the rich legacy left by John Wimber and the early Vineyard leadership. With anecdotes about healing breakthroughs and lessons on spiritual warfare, this conversation highlights how faith and persistence have shaped ministry practices today. Join us to rediscover the heart of the Vineyard movement and glean wisdom for building sustainable, spirit-filled communities. Key Topics Discussed: The origins of healing and deliverance in the Vineyard Lessons on spiritual warfare and breakthrough moments The significance of impartation in ministry Overcoming challenges in deliverance practices How the Vineyard values continue to influence global ministry How to Engage with Orbis: Check out Ken's book, On the Road with the Holy Spirit For more information on the Travel Grant Match to keep Ken's travel down in 2025, send an email to ⁠⁠⁠⁠bryan@orbisministries.org⁠⁠⁠⁠ Become a monthly partner Are you interested in learning about Holy Spirit-led ministry? Visit Orbis School of Ministry or email our Registrar, Jo McKay, at ⁠⁠⁠⁠jo@orbisminstries.org⁠⁠⁠⁠ Upcoming Orbis Ministries overseas ministry trips are posted on ⁠⁠⁠⁠orbisministries.org⁠⁠⁠⁠ under the Train-Join an International Ministry Trip link behind the registration/login portal. Do you want to join Ken's private Facebook discussion group, "God is not a Theory?" Please send a Facebook Direct Message to Bryan Orbis and a friend request to be added to it. If you'd like to receive Ken's monthly prayer letter, please go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠orbisministries.org⁠⁠⁠⁠ and scroll down to the bottom right for "Prayer Letter Signup."

In this special episode of God is Not a Theory with Ken Fish, recorded at Franklin Vineyard Church following the IGNITION Conference, Grant Pemberton and Ken Fish explore the history of healing and deliverance in the Vineyard movement. They delve into the foundations laid by John Wimber, share insights on the challenges and breakthroughs in ministry, and reflect on how deliverance has evolved and remained relevant today. This episode highlights the importance of impartation, persistence, and belief in seeing God's kingdom manifest through healing and deliverance. Key Topics Discussed: The roots of healing and deliverance in the Vineyard movement Stories of breakthrough and initial struggles with healing ministry John Wimber's impact and the legacy of the Vineyard Movement Challenges in teaching deliverance within evangelical circles Insights on impartation and building sustainable ministry How to Engage with Orbis: Check out Ken's book, On the Road with the Holy Spirit, here: ⁠⁠⁠https://tinyurl.com/3fu2w8t2⁠⁠⁠ For more information on the Travel Grant Match to keep Ken's travel down in 2025, send an email to ⁠⁠⁠bryan@orbisministries.org⁠⁠⁠ Partner with Orbis Financially: ⁠⁠⁠http://tinyurl.com/yfe3974h⁠⁠⁠ Are you interested in learning about Holy Spirit-led ministry? Visit Orbis School of Ministry at ⁠⁠⁠https://orbissm.com⁠⁠⁠ or email our Registrar, Jo McKay, at ⁠⁠⁠jo@orbisminstries.org⁠⁠⁠ Upcoming Orbis Ministries overseas ministry trips are posted on ⁠⁠⁠orbisministries.org⁠⁠⁠ under the Train-Join an International Ministry Trip link behind the registration/login portal. Do you want to join Ken's private Facebook discussion group, "God is not a Theory?" Please send a Facebook Direct Message to Bryan Orbis and a friend request to be added to it. If you'd like to receive Ken's monthly prayer letter, please go to ⁠⁠⁠orbisministries.org⁠⁠⁠ and scroll down to the bottom right for "Prayer Letter Signup."

Wes and Luke discuss the gift of prophecy in the local church, especially in relation to what prophecy is, personal gifting, resources, etc. ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

Luke Geraty has a conversation with Nate Brooks about John Wimber and the nature of the Kingdom of God. Recently a couple of videos have been released that mischaracterize Wimber's views and on this episode of the podcast we evaluate those ideas and talk about Wimber *actually* believed! You can also watch Luke's previous video here: https://youtu.be/zkB-HkS0EQ0?si=mRVRsAW1OzVbqcSd  ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

Wes and Luke talk about their respective views concerning Sacramental Theology, Sacramentality, and how this applies in the life of the Church. ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!  

Wes & Luke sit down with Dr. Matthew D. Taylor to discuss a better understanding of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and Christian Nationalism. Plus some discussion on Alan Scott and Dwelling Place Anaheim (formerly known as the Anaheim Vineyard). ❇️ About Dr. Matthew D. Taylor ❇️ Matthew D. Taylor is a religious studies scholar and expert in American Christianity, American Islam, Christian extremism, and religion and politics. His new book, The Violent Take It by Force: The Christian Movement that is Threatening Our Democracy (https://amzn.to/4cPGqPf), tracks how a network of Christian leaders called the New Apostolic Reformation was a major instigating force for the January 6th Insurrection and is currently reshaping the culture of the religious right in the U.S. He is also the creator, writer, and narrator of the Charismatic Revival Fury audio-documentary series and the author of Scripture People: Salafi Muslims in Evangelical Christians' America. Taylor holds a PhD in religious studies and Muslim-Christian relations from Georgetown University and an MA in theology from Fuller Theological Seminary. He is currently a senior scholar at the Institute for Islamic, Christian, and Jewish Studies in Towson. He also serves as an associate fellow at the Center for Peace Diplomacy in New Orleans, where he works on preventing religion-related violence surrounding U.S. elections. You can listen to Charismatic Revival Fury here: https://icjs.org/charismatic-revival-fury/ ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

Psalm 104:1-18, 2 Chronicles 33:21-35:19, 2 Corinthians 2:12-3:6. John Wimber defined this kind of ministry as ‘meeting the needs of others with the resources of God' Wonderfully, this type of ministry is now available to you and me

Psalm 104:1-15, 2 Chronicles 34:31, 2 Corinthians 2:14-17, 3:1-6. John Wimber defined this kind of ministry as ‘meeting the needs of others with the resources of God' Wonderfully, this type of ministry is now available to you and me

Psalm 104:1-15, 2 Chronicles 34:31, 2 Corinthians 2:14-17, 3:1-6. John Wimber defined this kind of ministry as ‘meeting the needs of others with the resources of God' Wonderfully, this type of ministry is now available to you and me

What's a sermon? What is preaching? Are you looking to improve your preaching? On this episode of The Sacramental Charismatic, Wes and Luke discuss sermons and share thoughts on how they put together sermons as well as dive into the dynamic role of the Holy Spirit in the midst of preaching! ❇️ Recommended Reading ❇️ Calvin Miller's "Preaching" (https://amzn.to/4fWwINV) Haddon Robinson's "Biblical Preaching" (https://amzn.to/3MeER2L)  John Stott's "Between Two Worlds" (https://amzn.to/3WONUME) ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

Luke and Wes spend time talking about a requested subject -- the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). How should we evaluate this movement's theology and practices? Take a listen. ❇️ Recommended Reading ❇️ John Wimber's "The Five-Fold Ministry" (https://bit.ly/4dlkaOi) Robby McAlpine's "Post-Charismatic: A Road to Recovery" (https://amzn.to/3M2P2qP) R. Douglas Geivett & Holly Pivec's "A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement" (https://amzn.to/3XcDyYx) Brad Christerson & Richard Flory's "The Rise of Network Christianity: How Independent Leaders Are Changing the Religious Landscape" (https://amzn.to/3M3jmlf) ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

John Wimber said the church must be a hospital, a school, a family and an army. This week we consider the church as a hospital--why it's so close to the heart of Jesus, and why it's a value we can easily lose sight of.

Charismatic Revival Fury, Part 2: Unpacked, with Dr Caleb Maskell, VUSA Associate Nat'l Director of Theology & Education.In this episode, we'll explore the history of connection, followed by strong divergence between John Wimber (founder of the Vineyard movement) and C Peter Wagner, founder of the NAR. These episodes help us understand the role of Wimber's leadership in working to draw theological frameworks and create Biblical boundaries around a novel spiritual movement, what happened when those boundaries were ignored, and what we need to learn about temptations to power and followership of Jesus.https://www.vineyardcolumbus.org/articles/ten-commitments-for-a-divisive-election-yearJohn Wilber - Five-fold Ministry

Charismatic Revival Fury. Part 1, w/ Dr. Matt Taylor.Charismatic Revival Fury: The New Apostolic Reformation is an audio documentary that explains the history, leadership, and belief formation behind a growing and influential group of evangelicals in the US known as the New Apostolic Reformation, many of whom ended up at the Capitol riot on Jan 6, and many of whom are still influencing much conversation in evangelical circles. What you might not know is that in the very early days of the NAR, Vineyard founder John Wimber was in the mix. In this and the next episode, we'll explore the podcast series, learn about the NAR,  it's history and the consequence of it's ideas in American politics and on Jan 6th, and explore the strong divergence that happened very early on between John Wimber (founder of the Vineyard movement) and C Peter Wagner, founder of the NAR. These episodes help us understand the role of Wimber's leadership in working to draw theological frameworks and create Biblical boundaries around a novel spiritual movement, what happened when those boundaries were ignored, and what we need to learn about temptations to power and followership of Jesus.https://icjs.org/charismatic-revival-fury/https://www.vineyardcolumbus.org/faqhttps://www.vineyardcolumbus.org/articles/ten-commitments-for-a-divisive-election-year

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/w2rB6NZogbgThe American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, distrust of the church is at an all-time high. Young people raised in the church are leaving at an alarming rate. And, in a society where loneliness and spiritual hunger are rampant, people are turning elsewhere for help. In this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys welcomes Skye Jethani for a wide-ranging discussion on the crisis in the American church. Skye, a former editor at Christianity Today and former pastor, has for years co-hosted The Holy Post, a popular podcast. Recently, Skye wrote the provocatively titled book, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? In it, he looks at what the Bible really says about the church, then compares that with some of the prevailing beliefs and values popular in the church today. For example, the church is commonly referred to in Scripture as a family—but in modern America, it's become a corporation. In its pursuit of expansion, influence, and power, the church has sadly lost the essential Christian virtues of faith and love. As Skye writes, rather than feeling like valued members of God's family, today, many church members feel like replaceable cogs in a ministry machine. Is it any wonder that the church is suffering, and is it any wonder that people are leaving? For people who've had negative experiences in church and have lived through congregational crisis firsthand, this lively conversation brings clarity and hope. Guests Skye Jethani An award-winning author, speaker, and co-host of the Holy Post Podcast, Skye Jethani has written more than a dozen books and served as an editor and executive at Christianity Today for more than a decade. Raised in a religiously and ethnically diverse family, his curiosity about faith led him to study comparative religion before entering seminary and pastoral ministry. With a unique ability to connect Christian thought and contemporary culture, his voice has been featured in The New York Times, USA Today, and The Washington Post. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie Roys: There’s no doubt the American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, the distrust of the church is at an all-time high. Young people raised in the church are leaving at an alarming rate and we have a society where loneliness and spiritual hunger is rampant, but people are turning elsewhere for help. [00:00:21] Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roy-. And today I’m going to be discussing the crisis in the American church with Skye Jethani. Skye is a former editor at Christianity Today and a former pastor. He’s also co-host of the podcast, The Holy Post. [00:00:40] Julie Roys: And he’s a speaker and author of numerous books, including the provocatively titled, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? In the book, Skye looks at what the Bible really says about the church, then he compares that with some of the prevailing beliefs and values popular in the church today. For example, the church is commonly referred to in scripture as a family, but in modern America, it’s become a corporation. [00:01:05] Julie Roys: And in its pursuit of expansion, influence, and power, the church has sadly lost the essential Christian virtue of love. As Skye writes, now, rather than feeling like valued members of God’s family, many church members feel like replaceable cogs in a ministry machine. Is it any wonder that the church is suffering, and is it any wonder that people are leaving? [00:01:28] Julie Roys: I’m so excited to speak with Skye about the church, not just because he’s a great thinker and teacher, but because he’s my brother. Skye attends the same house church that my family attends, and I’ve seen his commitment to the church on a day to day, week by week basis, and it’s because of people like Skye that I haven’t given up on the church, even though I’ve had a ton of negative experiences. I still believe in the church. I still see her beauty. And so I’m so excited to share this podcast with you. [00:01:49] Julie Roys: But first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. [00:02:16] Julie Roys: The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like- minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Julie Roys: Also if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. [00:03:26] Julie Roys: Well, again, joining me is Skye Jethani, a former pastor who now co-hosts the popular podcast, The Holy Post. He also speaks and writes books, including one that we’re offering to listeners this month called What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? So Skye, welcome, and it’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:03:50] Skye Jethani: Thanks, Julie. I’m happy to be here. [00:03:51] Julie Roys: And you may be surprised to know this, but I’ve actually mentioned you numerous times on this podcast. Do  about this? [00:03:58] Skye Jethani: I do not, because I have to confess, I’ve not listened. [00:04:01] Julie Roys: You haven’t listened to our podcast? Well, that’s okay, but I’ve listened to the Holy Post. I’ve actually been on the Holy Post, which has been really fun. I’ve mentioned you because I use this term that you coined called the evangelical industrial complex. And so whenever I do that, I try to give you credit. I say, , this isn’t my term. This is Skye’s term. [00:04:24] Skye Jethani: I don’t need credit, but you’re appreciated. It isn’t like I get a kickback or anything from every time it’s spoken, but. Yeah, I think it was 2012 I wrote an article that I first used that phrase, and it just took off. A lot of people have used it since then. [00:04:37] Julie Roys: Well, it’s a great term, but for those who are listening who haven’t heard it before, what is the evangelical industrial complex? [00:04:45] Skye Jethani: Right. So it’s a riff off of President Eisenhower in his farewell address to the country. It’s on YouTube. I recommend people go watch it. It’s very interesting, but he gave a televised address to the country where he warned about the military industrial complex. Of course, Eisenhower, having been a general and the commander of the forces in Europe during world war two had a lot of credibility when it came to military stuff. [00:05:08] Skye Jethani: And his concern was that there was this permanent arms industry that had been developed after world war two and the military industrial complex, he said, needed a perpetual conflict and warfare to continue its business model. And so I kind of adopted that phrase, but talking about the evangelical industrial complex, which is this financial money-making industry that constantly needs celebrity leaders, celebrity pastors in particular, and big events to perpetuate its business model. [00:05:39] Skye Jethani: And so it tends to elevate leaders who may be quite talented but lack the character or the maturity to handle large audiences or significant influence. But the evangelical industrial complex will prop them up, publish their books, get them on the big stage, build a big platform for them in order to make lots of money off of this person’s talent and reputation. [00:06:06] Skye Jethani: And then we’re shocked when they end up cracking under the pressure or falling into some controversy or their church implodes. And especially when I was working at Christianity Today, And I got around the country and I was seeing kind of behind the curtain in a lot of these places. I was noticing that tendency over and over and over again, where it wasn’t the Godly mature tested people who were given platforms. [00:06:27] Skye Jethani: It was young, attractive, talented people who were given platforms. And so looking at this in different angles, like I just said, this is about making money. This isn’t about really building up the church. And so that’s the evangelical industrial complex. [00:06:42] Julie Roys: And there’s so much that you just said; just in those few paragraphs about the church and some of our assumptions about the church, the fact that we can have an industrial complex, the fact that we have so many financial interests, and we’re going to dive into a lot of that today. [00:07:01] Julie Roys: And I love your book because you take all of these things that are kind of, we’ve just adopted because we swim in this soup, right? And we don’t even know kind of these false ideas about church that we’ve imbibed. But they’re there. And when you begin to contrast them with scripture, you’re like, Oh my word. [00:07:19] Julie Roys: But as I mentioned in the open, you and I, not only know each other professionally, but we go to the same church and we go to a house church, which is a very unconventional form of church. And I know for me and a lot of others within our house church, we’ve come because there was some sort of, I would say many of us are church refugees. [00:07:44] Julie Roys: Something happened at the church that we were at. And I know I’ve talked about this before on this podcast that for us, it was losing trust in our leaders because of a sexual abuse coverup at the church. And so that was very concerning. Your story, I’m guessing, is a bit different, and I realized as we jumped into this, I mean, I know your former church, and I know some stuff that happened there, but I really don’t know your story of why you came to this house church, which is really, in some ways, unconventional form of church, but if you read the New Testament, it sounds awful lot like what they were doing back then. So, what’s your story? How’d you get there? [00:08:24] Skye Jethani: Quite by accident really. I was at the same church for 20 years and for, I don’t know, six, it’s hard to, to find, but I was on staff at the church for quite a few years. And then when I was at CT, I actually split my time between staff at the church and Christianity Today. [00:08:41] Skye Jethani: So these convoluted timeframes, but overall 20 years. And probably, uh, gosh, trying to get dates straight in my head. A few years before we landed at the house church, my wife and I were struggling, honestly, at the church. And I saw, I think partly because of my own ministry background and from my years at CT, where I had been around the country and seen behind the curtain at all kinds of different issues, I had growing concerns about what I saw happening at my own church. [00:09:12] Skye Jethani: And I took some of those concerns to some of the leaders. They did not share my perspective. They thought I was making a mountain out of a molehill. So in those years, my wife and I kind of decided, well, we’re going to take a step back from like deeper involvement because I was, I just saw yellow flags and yet this was our community. This was the people we loved, people we’d known, our kids were all born and raised in this church. So we were committed to the community, but I just decided as previously having been a significant leader there, I was going to take a step back. And those are hard couple of years because I was constantly told, well, should we be somewhere else? [00:09:52] Skye Jethani: I really wanted to be at a church where I felt like I could contribute my full strength and enthusiasm to the work of that community, and it just wasn’t going to happen at our church in that season. Then 2020 happens and the pandemic hits, and it’s like, Oh! God caused the global pandemic. So we don’t have to go to church and feel awkward anymore in this situation. [00:10:30] Skye Jethani: So like everyone else, our church closed. And so everyone moved online or figured out other alternatives. And a few months into the pandemic, Brady Wright reached out to me, who’s also part of our house church and a mutual friend. And he and I and our families have been friends for a long time. And he said that he knew a bunch of families that were all struggling with just feeling isolated. And it was still warm out. And he asked if we’d be open to gathering in someone’s backyard under a tree, social distance for like a fellowship gathering where we would read scripture, pray for one another, and just have a very, very rudimentary kind of worship gathering. [00:10:53] Skye Jethani: So we started doing that in the spring and summer of 2020. And the people came from different churches, but we said we needed fellowship. And a lot of us were connected through Young Life. And then as we got into the winter months, we realized, well, we actually really like doing this with each other and our churches were still closed. [00:11:12] Skye Jethani: And most of us were maybe engaging somewhere online, but not in a meaningful way. And then by 2021, the church that we had been a part of all those years went through that significant crisis that it kind of finally blew up. And I had concerns that this was coming for years and then it did. [00:11:37] Skye Jethani: And so when people found out that my wife and I had been a part of this little under a tree gathering thing. And then in homes, after the weather got cold, some of those refugees started showing up at this little house church. And then there were other churches in our area, like yours, where people were struggling, and they ended up coming. And before you know it, Brady and I are looking at each other going, this was just supposed to be a COVID fellowship, temporary thing under a tree. [00:11:59] Skye Jethani: Um, But now we realize there’s a bigger reason for this, and there are people who need this place to feel connected and heal and a different way of approaching the basic functions of a Christian community. [00:12:21] Skye Jethani: So fast forward, we’re no longer at that church that we were at, obviously, for 20 years, I’m no longer ordained in that denomination. And this house church has just become our community and home. So we didn’t go into it as refugees from a church. We came into it just because of COVID, but it all kind of aligned with a number of years of suspecting things were coming. And then when they did, I think we were just a little ahead of the curve. I saw what could happen and it did. So maybe God was just sparing us from a more acute pain had we stayed more engaged. [00:12:50] Julie Roys: And we were church refugees, and I kind of knew this, but when we lost what was our church home, we spent about two years visiting tons of churches in the area and it just grieved me because I saw the same sort of system at every church that I just didn’t believe in anymore. [00:13:13] Julie Roys: I still believed in the church, I still believed in God, but I didn’t believe in the system anymore. We’re going to dive into that and actually in your introduction, I like how you talk about the church has changed. Our idea of what the church is, it’s just dramatically changed in 50 years. [00:13:33] Julie Roys: And I would a hundred percent affirm that. The church that I’m seeing everywhere right now, that’s called the evangelical church is not the church I grew up in at all, not even close. So talk about that change and what sort of prompted that change. [00:13:51] Skye Jethani: Gosh, I guess it depends on where you want to start the timeline. It’s probably older than 50 years, but I think one of the significant changes that happened at some point in the mid-20th century was sort of the professionalization of pastoral ministry. [00:14:08] Skye Jethani: And I don’t mean professionalization as in professional training. I think that’s very valuable. But here’s what I mean. Throughout most of Christian history, a pastor or minister would spend most of their time during the week out in the community. They met people in their homes, in their farms, in their factories, in the hospitals and the prisons, wherever they were out in the community, engaging people. [00:14:29] Skye Jethani: And then those people would congregate on Sunday. And the minister would lead them in sacraments and in teaching of scripture and all that. But he or she knew their sheep because they were out in the community. And at some point we flipped a switch and we said, if you desire to be ministered to, you now need to come to where the minister works. [00:14:51] Skye Jethani: You need to come into the church office, the church building, and we, the ministers will create a plethora of programs for you and your family to minister to you. And that was done, I think, with very good intentions and there’s an efficiency in that. But I think what it unintentionally did is it caused those of us who are ministers and our pastors to lose touch with the reality of our sheep. [00:15:15] Skye Jethani: We lost touch with what do people's lives actually look like Monday through Saturday? Because the only time we ever saw people, it was on our turf, on our terms, in our programs, and in our building. And once you made that switch from pastoral ministry out in the pastures, to pastoral ministry in the professional setting of the pastor in their building, well then it’s just a matter of how do I scale this factory? How do I make more programs? How do we make bigger worship services? How do I get more people into this system? [00:16:03] Skye Jethani: And then you get the explosion of mega churches and all of that. That was a big wake up call for me, even, after spending a number of years on staff at my church and then beginning to work outside, I realized, oh, I had no idea what the lives of the people in my church were actually like, because I only saw them in my context. I never saw them in their context. So I think that was a big change. And then you just get this massive growth of the institution because you add into this concoction the sacred secular divide. And a lot of people in ministry think that the only work that really matters ultimately is ministry. [00:16:23] Skye Jethani: So if something’s going to matter, it has to happen under the church umbrella, which is how you get like exercise facilities in a church. It’s how you get auto mechanics in a church. It’s how you get all these because it has to be under the church to count and you get these monstrosities ministries and in some communities that’s necessary. [00:16:43] Skye Jethani: I don’t want to completely diminish that, but a lot of places it isn’t. And then you need more and more professional people to manage and run these huge things. And that becomes the system that you’re talking about. You’re like, wow, this becomes really self-serving rather than ministering out into the community. [00:16:59] Skye Jethani: I think that’s one reason is just the simple professionalization of what happened. There’s a lot of other pieces of this we can unpack, but I think that one doesn’t get enough attention. [00:17:07] Julie Roys:  Yeah. And the church has become a corporation. It’s not  the family that a lot of us knew the church has. And I do think there were good intentions with things. Like I remember the first time we went to Willow Creek, which is the big mega church in the Chicago area, much less big now that everything’s happened with Bill Hybels But I remember going and the thing that struck me, because when I grew up in this little church, it was a great family, really great family, but nobody became a Christian there. Right? Like nobody came to the church and became a Christian. And I saw Willow Creek putting on these amazing shows on Sunday morning, very attractional model. And I remember inviting my boss. I was doing this little sales job in between college and graduate school. And I invited my boss, and my boss became a believer. [00:17:59] Julie Roys:  And then we started doing Bible studies and we used to fill up two rows of people on midweek. Like we’d have a sales meeting and then we go to Willow. And literally there were dozens of people became believers through that. So I mean that at first I was just like, this is amazing. It’s like the para-church church. I saw all of these para church type outreach ministries, that model coming into the church. But then some really unintended consequences we really weren’t thinking about it necessarily biblically, we were thinking about it pragmatically; how do we reach people? [00:18:43] Julie Roys: And that’s kind of how we got there, but really, what is the church, right? I mean, that’s what your book is getting to. What is the church? And I think you rightly say a lot of people think of it as an event, as a building, as an organization. So biblically, let’s go back down to our roots, right? And what is the church? [00:19:02] Skye Jethani: The simplest answer is it’s a community of women and men and children who have been redeemed by Jesus and are living in communion with him and one another. That’s it. And that obviously can take different forms and structures and different cultures and times, but that’s it. I think your observation that megachurch function very much like a parachurch outreach kind of ministry, I think it’s accurate. And I’ve been a part of a number, especially as a college student, a number of parachurch organizations like Campus Crusade CRU now, InterVarsity, Navigators, and at least in my time connected to some of those things. They’re very careful not to call themselves a church because they understand that we may be a ministry, we may do outreach and Bible studies and other things, but we are not a church. [00:20:05] Skye Jethani: But the funny part is when you go to some churches that more or less function like parachurch ministries. they embrace the name church. And I wrote a piece many years ago for Leadership Journal, where I was arguing that these very large churches shouldn’t really be called churches. And I started calling them VLMs, which is a new one. It’s a very large ministry. And I tried to come up with a name that wasn’t disparaging because they are doing ministry. They are reaching people like your colleagues, like they’re doing good work, but there’s something chafed on me about calling it a church when the historic definition and functions of a church community were really not present. But they were preaching the gospel. They were teaching scripture. They were engaging non-believers, all that great. But the functioning of a church in many of these places was not actually happening. [00:20:44] Skye Jethani: Para church organizations recognize that about themselves and stayed away from the label of church, but these mega churches and other ministries embrace the church name. All the while they weren’t really functioning as churches. [00:20:56] Julie Roys: And I think the pastor wasn’t functioning as a pastor. I mean, we have pastors who are basically preachers, but they’re not pastors. They’re not shepherds. [00:21:04] Skye Jethani: Right. Exactly. Yeah. [00:21:06] Julie Roys: You wrote one of the chapters is on, whose church is it really? And it reminded me of an experience I had last fall. So I was doing some investigating on a church where Albert Tate was the pastor. It’s in Monrovia, California, and he had admitted that he had an inappropriate texting relationship, but then his staff started complaining about bullying, about spiritual abuse. [00:21:33] Julie Roys: They found out that they really didn’t have any say. They didn’t own the church the way the bylaws were written. Albert, and a few of his key guys that he put on his board owned the church. I remember at this very contentious town hall meeting that I went to where they were basically the people were demanding their church back, and they were talking about Albert going on this sabbatical, and he came back really quickly. I forget how it’s several weeks. And then he said, and I’m just going to quote, he’s like, I’m not sure if a month would have made any difference, like saying if I had stayed on my break for a month longer. And unfortunately, I still feel like this is my church. And the place erupted. I mean, people were saying it’s our church, it’s our church. [00:22:25] Julie Roys: And then somebody was saying, no, it’s God’s church. But the way that we think about our church, I mean, there, it was really coming to a head, and it really was a matter of who owns this church? And we’ve got legal ownership, and then we’ve got spiritual ownership. So speak to that, because I think we have really messed this one up. [00:22:46] Skye Jethani: Yeah, and there’s a lot of pieces that intersect with this, because there’s different polities, there’s different church structures and governance structures, depending on your denomination and theology and all of that, it gets complicated. There’s some denominations in which they might have congregational polity, but the denomination owns the building, and it goes on and on like in the denomination I was a part of they were congregational in their polity, but the licensing and ordination of clergy was handled by the denomination. So there was some oversight. And one of the things, I used to have stronger opinions, I guess, about these matters, but as I’ve gotten around and had my own experience and just perhaps mellowed a bit with age, I’ve realized I have not yet found a church structure that cannot be abused. [00:23:33] Skye Jethani: They all have weaknesses, and they all have strengths. Some I think are better than others, but none’s immune. So if someone’s looking for a silver bullet of how do we structure these things to avoid abuse? Good luck. The best you can do is try to mitigate against it in your culture and environment by choosing certain models versus others, but they can all be abused. [00:23:56] Skye Jethani: But what you’re getting at in the story that you mentioned, and I’ve seen this up close as well, especially within evangelicalism, so much of our tradition is rooted in charismatic personalities and lowercase C charismatic personalities so that we tend to associate a church with its visible leader, the person in the pulpit. [00:24:22] Skye Jethani: I remember Outreach magazine, I think it was Outreach magazine years ago, used to do an issue every year on like the top hundred churches in the country or something like that. And they measure just based on size, based on attendance. And it was like a centerfold, a fold out. big thing and they’d list all these churches in this chart And there was the name of the church and then there was just a headshot of the senior pastor That was the visual representation of that church [00:25:02] Skye Jethani: So it is a structural problem, but it’s also a people problem We do that we do that because we tend to pick a church based on do I like the preacher? If that’s the criteria you have for picking your church, you’re reinforcing that same idea. And what really grieved me was when I realized, despite the rhetoric, despite the theology, despite all the words about we’re a body and it’s blah, blah, blah. When people in leadership, John Ortberg used to say that everyone has their mission, and then there’s the shadow mission. [00:25:28] Skye Jethani: There’s what you say your mission is, and then there’s what your mission really is. And what I discovered in some of these places is, you might say your mission is the health of the church, or it’s the growth of the church, or it’s the service of the community, whatever it might be, glorifying God. The shadow mission in an awful lot of these places is to protect the pastor and to maintain the pastor’s status and reputation. [00:25:50] Skye Jethani: And that for me to speak about the system being broken is when I lost trust and hope. Where it ceased to be about what’s best for the body, and it became what’s best for the figurehead who represents the body, not Jesus, but the pastor. Again, there’s a bazillion stories of how this happens. [00:26:15] Skye Jethani: I don’t want to point the finger just at the system because we are complicit in creating that system. Because I think for a lot of us, we get a lot of satisfaction after saying that’s my pastor. That’s my leader. Look how great my guy is. Look how many books he’s published, look how popular his radio show is. And I’m a part of that. So there’s something we get from that, which props them up. [00:26:36] Skye Jethani: And somewhere else I wrote about it as being like the relationship between an animal and a zookeeper. They both benefit. The animal gets fed in a safe place to live. And the zookeeper gets the satisfaction of. , being in charge of all these animals. And if you’re content with that model, we’re going to continue to have this dynamic where the leaders are synonymous with the church. And then the church does everything it can to prop up and protect its leader, and it’s really unhealthy for everybody involved. [00:26:57] Julie Roys: That’s interesting. And it is true that it’s comfortable for us because when we go to a church like that, everything’s provided for us, and we don’t really have to bring anything to the table. And that’s been one of the challenges with our house church, hasn’t it? We're like, nobody signed up to facilitate this week. Nobody signed up for worship leading. And it’s like, okay, yeah, we’re going to have to bring a little more to the table if we’re going to keep meeting. Again, biblically speaking, there’s commands about when you meet together, you should bring a psalm, you should bring a word of encouragement, you should bring, I mean, all of these things. [00:27:34] Julie Roys: We’ve gotten into a very consumeristic way of looking at church and of approaching it. And it’s on us. You’re right. You’re a hundred percent right. It is on us. And I think we don’t think of the church. as God’s church. But if we do think of the church as God’s church, then I think it also changes our expectations of who should be in that church. [00:27:59] Julie Roys: You mentioned how a lot of churches, when they plant a church, they’ll talk about their target audience, for example, which implies you can either be in their target or not be in their target, right? So, if you’re not in their target, then do you count? I mean, do you matter? A lot of assumptions there. But when we think about church and we think about who’s coming, how should we perceive that? [00:28:29] Skye Jethani: Yeah, I think that the breakdown here is the way our culture defines hospitality. Again, it’s become an industry; there’s the hospitality industry in the modern world. And so what we usually mean by hospitality, and this trickles down even to our homes, like when we think about do you have a hospitable home? You think, well, if I’m going to have guests, I’m going to find out what do they like? What do they want? I’m going to accommodate to their needs. I’m going to make sure that they're vegan or whatever it is. And we’re going to customize our home to fit the people who are coming. The hospitality industry has taught us, whether it’s airlines or hotels or resorts or whatever, find out who you’re marketing your resort to, and then give them what they want. Customer is king. And megachurches and the seeker movement came along, and they adopted that same approach. Well, we’re going to go after unchurched Harry and Mary, famously was Willow Creek’s thing. And they had this middle-class, middle-aged people, and they tailored a church around what they wanted. [00:29:30] Skye Jethani: That’s very different from the ancient world’s understanding of hospitality. Paul commands us to be hospitable to one another, and so does Peter, and it’s a very ancient idea going back to Abraham being hospitable to the strangers who are angels who came to his home. [00:29:46] Skye Jethani: In the ancient Near East, hospitality was not about catering or changing your home or community to accommodate your guests. It was instead, welcoming guests into the normalcy and flow of your home as it is; it’s been authentically yourself but welcoming those guests into it. [00:30:15] Skye Jethani: So, I’ll give you one example. When I was in seminary, some classmates of mine did an experiment where they took 2 television monitors to Northwestern University, right? This. secular university in Evanston, the north side of Chicago. Julie Roys: Where I got my graduate degree. [00:30:36] Skye Jethani:  Right. One monitor they showed a Catholic mass, and the other monitor they showed a very contemporary mega church worship gathering. And they asked students as they came by, hey, if you were ever to go to church, which one of these would you go to? And this would have been probably 1998-99 in that timeframe. The overwhelming response of the students was the Catholic mass. And then they asked them, why is that? And they said, well, that looks like a rock concert. I can get that anywhere, but that looks sacred. That looks holy. [00:30:54] Skye Jethani: And what they were getting at was, the mega churches said, we’re going to accommodate to the culture and give people what they want. But increasingly with my generation, and I think the younger ones, it smacks of pandering. It smacks of, well, you’re changing who you really are in order to be who you think I want you to be. [00:31:13] Skye Jethani: Whereas the Catholic mass, a lot of these students was like, well, they’re being authentic to who they are. That’s Christianity. They’re not trying to. I mean, goodness, the Catholics just started doing the mass in English not that long ago. They were very slow to accommodate, but that was seen as authentic. [00:31:28] Skye Jethani: So I think that the challenge for us today is not how do you change the church to be what the culture wants you to be? It’s how do you be authentically Christian in your church community? But how do you make it As accessible as possible to the people who might come in? [00:31:49] Skye Jethani: So in our case, like when we gather, we take communion every Sunday when we gather. I know plenty of seeker churches that would say, you don’t do that because it’s off putting to non-believers who don’t understand it. I would hope that if someone came into our community, and I’ve seen churches that do this really well, who take communion regularly, they explain what this is, what it means, why we do it, how to do it, the significance of it and invite people to participate or not, depending on their theology [00:32:13] Skye Jethani: . That’s being hospitable. It’s not changing who you are to accommodate people’s expectations. It’s welcoming them into who you are and to the normal flow of your family and household. And I think that’s a better approach and a more faithful approach than polling the community and finding out what they want. [00:32:29] Julie Roys: Absolutely. And I love that we do communion every week. I think a lot of churches have forsaken this. In fact, you talk about the, what is it, The coffee bar versus the Lord’s table? Like in a lot of these churches, the coffee bar has become more appealing than the Lord’s table to these churches. Again, because I think their mentality is we’re doing church, and this is where I feel like evangelism, which is such an important thing, but it’s almost superseded worship. [00:33:04] Julie Roys: Like, we forget why we come together. We don’t come together to reach the seeker. Not that God, obviously Jesus cared. He left the 99 to get the one. But we come together to worship God; that’s the primary. And so the table, describe, beyond what you’ve talked about, but theologically, why is the table so, and by the way, our RESTORE conferences, every single one, we always end with communion, which I’ve had people come up to me and say, Oh, you shouldn’t do like anything that might trigger people because they were hurt in the church and communion, that's something that’s very churchy. [00:33:46] Julie Roys: And I’m like, we have to redeem these symbols. We can’t throw them out because these symbols are there. God gave them to us because our souls need them. And we need to have this communion with one another and with Christ. I know this is a conviction of yours. It’s very deeply held, but why is the table like a non-negotiable for us as believers when we meet? [00:34:13] Skye Jethani: Let me give you two reasons, although there are more. One, is I think it is the practiced embodiment of the gospel. It is not just the verbal proclamation of the gospel, which is obviously valuable, but it’s the embodiment of the gospel. And in the sense that it’s not just a memorial to Jesus' death, which certainly it is that; my broken body, my shed blood, but in sort of an Ephesians 2 kind of way. [00:34:54] Skye Jethani: There Paul talks about how on the cross God has reconciled us to one another. He’s talking about Jew and Gentiles there. He’s broken down the wall of hostility and he has reconciled us to one another and made us one new person. And then together reconciled us to God through the cross. So It’s not just when I sit alone and take a little juice and a little bread, and I kind of think about the cross and my community with God, it’s when I am sitting side by side or standing side by side with my sisters and brothers, realizing I’m one with them because of the cross, and he has reconciled us to one another, people, maybe who I share something in common with, in an earthly way, but some whom I don’t. [00:35:31] Skye Jethani: And so when we don’t practice communion regularly, I think we can easily fall into the trap of losing the horizontal dimension of the gospel. And we make it simply vertical. It’s just me and God. And we forget, no, it’s the reconciliation between brothers and sisters happens first, Paul says, and then we’re reconciled to God, the father of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. [00:35:56] Skye Jethani: If you’re going to make an offering at the altar, and there, remember your brother has something against you, leave the offering, go be reconciled to your brother, then come and offer your gift to God. He always puts the horizontal reconciliation ahead of the vertical, and we have so lost sight of that. And we don’t think that’s essential to our gospel, but it is. [00:36:11] Skye Jethani: So the table is critically important because it is the embodiment of that full gospel, the horizontal and the vertical. And when we don’t practice that, we get really warped. And it just leads to terrible things in the church. Then the other reason, the second reason, and this gets a little bit more into that coffee bar versus communion table thing is, virtually everything in our society is designed to make us narcissistic consumers. [00:36:41] Skye Jethani: It’s all about me. It’s what I want. And when I go to a coffee bar, I don’t drink coffee. I drink tea, but when I go to a Starbucks or whatever, like there’s infinite options and I pick what I want and I’m the one in charge and I order it and I get it. And a lot of churches have that in their foyer or communion area or common area, whatever might be fine. [00:36:58] Skye Jethani: I’m not against coffee in church, but the table I’m no longer in charge. It’s Christ’s table. It’s not my table. And even if I’m officiating and I’m a pastor at the table, it’s still not my table. It’s Christ’s table. He welcomes us there. This is his body. This is his blood. This is about his kingdom and his family. [00:37:18] Skye Jethani: And it’s a reminder that I am not in charge, and I belong to something other than myself. And so those two realities of the gospel, I think are antidotes to what we get bombarded with in our culture of the privatization of our faith. It’s just me and God and the hyper narcissism of it’s what I want that matters, not what God wants. [00:37:41] Skye Jethani: For me, the practice of communion inoculates me to a degree against all of that cultural garbage and realigns me to the gospel of Christ again. So to not practice it regularly, I think is to lose one of the greatest graces that Christ has given his church. And especially in our context, we need to do that. [00:38:03] Julie Roys: I love about the table too, especially this is probably why I absolutely love liturgical worship, which is something I loved about our previous church because it was Anglican and I love the liturgy, but I love the table because it reminds us of what’s coming, like the wedding feast that we’re looking forward to. [00:38:27] Julie Roys: I think way too often especially in evangelicalism, it’s like our goal is to get people saved and then it stops. Like we forget that ?we’re saved to be part of this community that’s being redeemed and has this glorious thing that we’re anticipating. And I think most Christians forget we’re anticipating something. [00:38:48] Julie Roys: You just get the sense like, Oh, you got saved. You’ve arrived. And then, well,  you should become discipled; that’s important because as you point out, we haven’t really defined what disciple is but that’s important, but we forget. Man, we are just passing through. We’ve got this glorious, glorious feast that we’re awaiting, and it is going to be a family and it’s going to be a family affair where everyone’s gathered. [00:39:15] Julie Roys: I love that part of it. And I love that it takes us out, like you’re saying, out of our present context and reminds us who we are and where we’re going. So love that part of it. And you touched on this when you said, You were hinting at the transactional nature that we come to church with, and I hear this all the time. I’ve probably said it myself. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of this. But we look at church and we say, and if we go and we don’t feel like we were especially inspired or something, we’ll say, I didn’t get anything out of that. [00:39:54] Skye Jethani: Mm-Hmm. . [00:39:54] Julie Roys: Talk about why that’s really not the way we should be approaching church. [00:39:59] Skye Jethani: Oh, gosh, Julie, I wrote my very first book on this whole thing, which no one read. It’s called The Divine Commodity and it’s all about consumerism and the church. With a weird thread of Vincent van Gogh all the way through the book, which is why no one read it. [00:40:16] Julie Roys: That sounds very interesting though. In a dark sort of way. [00:40:19] Skye Jethani: We live and move and have our being in a consumer culture. Everything is measured by its value to me. It’s interesting. Like, there’s an economist who argues that America really transitioned into a truly consumer economy in the 1950s. And it’s the 1950s where you begin to see a massive spike in divorce rates. [00:40:43] Skye Jethani: Now, there’s a lot of factors into that. It’s not just economics, but I think it’s a factor. Because what Consumerism tells us is that the world exists to satisfy my desires. And when something doesn’t satisfy my desire, I’m justified in changing it, whether it’s a product from a shelf or a spouse that I said I was committed to. [00:41:03] Skye Jethani: So we measure everything that way. Most of us don’t even think twice about it. Of course, that’s the right way to live. Of course, that’s what the world is all about. And so we come into our church communities or even our relationship with Christ and we go, well, what have you done for me lately? And is this beneficial to me? And am I getting something from it? We don’t challenge that ethic in most of our churches. We never point it out, we never go, Hey, this might be the way economics works in our society, but it’s not the way the most important things work. This isn’t the way we should think about our children. [00:41:34] Skye Jethani: This isn’t the way we should think about our spouses. And this is not the way we should be thinking about God. And Certainly not the way to think about his church, but we do. And in a weird way, the first amendment has reinforced that idea. We have no established church in America and I’m grateful for that, but it also means there’s a free market of religion in the United States and the religious institutions that are out there are all competing for part of the market. They’re competing for customers. And in that setting, the customer’s King, you give them what you want. So it ends up reinforcing this mindset over and over and over again. I can’t just shake my fist at the culture and go big, bad consumerism. [00:42:12] Skye Jethani: But what I can shake my fist at a little bit are churches and ministers that aren’t speaking about this dynamic and helping people be formed out of it into the values of the kingdom of God. And instead we either stay silent about it or flat out reinforce it and advance it in a weird way. So yeah, things like communion, like commitment, like relationship, like service are antidotes to some of that mindset. [00:42:38] Skye Jethani: But it’s hard. And I find myself in that posture all the time as well. You can’t escape it. It’s just part of who we are as 21st century modern people. But that’s where it’s on the shoulders of church leaders and institutions to help form us and give us a vision of a different way that very few are doing. [00:42:58] Julie Roys: Similar to that is I think this idea that when we come to church, we do so, and we’ve heard churches build themselves this way. We come and experience God, and worship has become, and it’s interesting to me because worship was so huge in my development as a Christian. As I remember being in high school and I got discipled by these, Oral Roberts/Jesus People like wacky charismatics who were druggies maybe 10 years prior to meeting me. [00:43:32] Julie Roys: But they were so on fire for the Lord, and we would get together, and we would pray and worship and literally we’d be there for 3 hours, and it would seem like 10 minutes. It was just an amazing. I didn’t realize up until that point that you could have that kind of intimacy with God and that kind of communion with him. [00:43:51] Julie Roys: So worship was huge to me in my experience of God. What’s been challenging now. And even I look back, we were in a Vineyard church for a long time, and I used to love to invite people and I would see them come into the worship and they just start crying and they don’t even know why they’re crying, right? [00:44:08] Julie Roys: They’re just crying because they’re moved. But now I’m seeing so many of these worship experiences that are, they’re amazing emotional experiences and it’s making me check; like I have a check now because I see these kids raised in their hands and they’re praising the Lord. [00:44:32] Julie Roys: And then the rest of what they’re doing throughout the week has nothing to do with the Lord has nothing to do with worshiping the Lord. I see these ministries that are built on worship, like Hillsong and Bethel. And now we’re seeing just such horrible manipulation and corruption and abuse within so many of these churches. [00:44:52] Julie Roys: And so the whole experiencing God thing,  it’s hard to even parse out, like, is the music affecting me? I think if you try to parse that out, then you’re kind of killing the experience itself, right? So, you destroy it. [00:45:16] Julie Roys: But I think this idea that we have to go to church to experience God. has been baked into evangelicalism where it’s at right now. So address that and why we need to really change our focus when it comes to worship. [00:45:28] Skye Jethani: You and I were very different high school students. [00:45:31] Julie Roys: We were. You were here, I was here, right? [00:45:35] Skye Jethani: Yeah. So I was the worst kid in the youth group in high school because I was such a skeptic. I used to get dragged to these big worship events in Chicago for high schoolers in the early 90s. And I just thought these are the most manipulative and emotionally charged. I just didn’t buy it. I never bought it. And that’s just, that was my own baggage and problem. But let me say, I think the problem is not necessarily these gatherings. [00:46:02] Skye Jethani: I think they can be beautiful in many, and I’ve been a part of some that are just amazingly gorgeous times of communion with God. The problem is not the gatherings. I think the real problem is what we expect to get from them. And here’s the metaphor that I’ve written about elsewhere that I find helpful. [00:46:23] Skye Jethani: In 2nd Corinthians chapter 3, Paul references Moses on the mountaintop of Sinai when he meets with the Lord. And if you remember the story from Exodus 34, when Moses came down the mountain to meet with the people again, they all freaked out because his face was glowing, right? The radiance of God was shown on his face. [00:46:44] Skye Jethani: And in Exodus, it says that Moses put a veil over his face. So that people wouldn’t freak out anymore. Well, Paul, when he’s referencing this in 2 Corinthians 3, adds a little bit of rabbinical tradition into the story that’s not actually in Exodus, but Paul was familiar with. And he said, no, the real reason that Moses put a veil over his face is because he didn’t want the people to see that the glory was fading away and that is was only temporary. [00:47:09] Skye Jethani: And so when you piece these things together, you get a sense of what was really going on here is every time Moses would go up the mountain and meet with the Lord, he would take the veil off and he’d kind of get recharged another zap of God’s radiance. [00:47:20] Skye Jethani: And he’d come down and everyone would see, Oh, he’s been with the Lord. He’s glowing. And then he put the veil over cause it fades away. And I think that’s a little bit what we’ve gotten caught up into, is an external mountaintop kind of communion with God. Moses' experience on the mountain was real. It was genuine. It was good. It was full of God’s presence [00:47:38] Skye Jethani:. The problem that Paul’s pointing out is it always faded. It was temporary. And so you have to go back over and over and over again. And he contrasts that with the new covenant in Christ, which he said is not. about an external glory. It’s about his spirit within us, transforming us from one degree of glory to the next with ever increasing glory. So we can take the veil away. [00:47:59] Skye Jethani: And this is the core problem. I think in an awful lot of consumeristic American evangelical Christianity is essentially what we have done is rejected the new covenant in Christ in favor of the old covenant in Moses. And the reason is if we really buy the new covenant in Christ, You don’t need a 50-million-dollar mountaintop to encounter God, and you don’t need a dynamic preacher to encounter God, and you don’t need a huge worship band o genuinely encounter God. What do you need? You need to cultivate a deep abiding presence with his spirit, the kind that Jesus talks about in John 15. Abide in me and I will abide in you, just as a branch abides in its vine and bears fruit. That’s New Testament spirituality [00:48:53] Skye Jethani: But if you want a big ministry, and if you want thousands or even millions of people buying your albums and coming to your church and doing anything, then you need old testament spirituality. You need to convince people that the only place that they’re really going to have an experience of  God is on the mountain that you’ve built and that you hold the toll road to accessing. That’s old testament spirituality and it’s really lucrative .But it’s not what we’re called to in Jesus. [00:49:13] Skye Jethani: So that’s what worries me is we’re creating kind of worship junkies where they need another hit and the glory fades and they’re like, Oh, my life, I felt really transformed after going to that big event, that big conference, that big whatever. But yeah, a week later, the glory fades and you’re back to the person you always were. [00:49:29] Skye Jethani: And then you go, I guess I need to go again, or I need a bigger thing or a better church or a better speaker. Whatever. And all the while we’re ignoring what we’re called to, which is who’s teaching me how to really commune with Jesus? Who’s teaching me how to pray? Who’s teaching me how to confess my sins? Who’s teaching me how to really live in step with the spirit day in and day out so that I might truly be transformed from one degree of glory to the next? [00:49:51] Skye Jethani: Very few of our mega ministry settings are designed to do that kind of work. They’re designed to give us a show and make us feel great. And to be fair, again, sometimes those are genuine encounters with God, just like Moses was, but it always fades. That’s the problem. [00:50:09] Julie Roys: I’m thinking back to when I was at Vineyard and there was a saying that John Wimber had that I absolutely loved. He would say pretty much everything else in our experience with God is something that he does for us. Worship is the one thing that we do to him, that we give back to him. And I think rightly understood, it comes from that communion with God that you have, that then when you have the chance to verbally express that, it's very much like in a marriage relationship. [00:50:44] Julie Roys: When you have that opportunity to physically express that love to your spouse, it’s extraordinarily meaningful because why? you already have that love that you experienced one for another. And so then that Physical expression becomes so meaningful But if it were just the physical expression without the love, I think that’s where a lot of people are at really in the way that they’re relating to God, [00:51:07] Skye Jethani: Right. Yeah, if we developed a genuine communion with God throughout the week, and then we gather with our sisters and brothers on the weekend and express that, that’s wonderful. I think too many of us again, schooled as consumers don’t have that communion all week long. And then we show up on Sunday going, light me up, make me feel good, give me that charge so that I can go into my week and feel encouraged or blessed or whatever it is I’m looking for. That’s not worship [00:51:34] Julie Roys: We don’t want to disciple people on how to maintain that in their private life because then they don’t need us. And yeah, so good. Well, there’s so much more we could talk about. Before I let you go talk just briefly about leadership and you’ve touched on it somewhat, about the celebrity pastors. You also used a term that’s become somewhat of a buzzword within the church is something called servant leadership. [00:52:05] Julie Roys: I have a feeling that’s much more about the upfront and not like the shadow mission shows whether that servant leadership is actually a thing. But talk about that leader and the approach that leader should have. How a leader should serve within a body, and why maybe we should be suspicious of those who come along and say, they’re visionary leaders and they’re going to impart their vision to us, for the church. And I know I just gave you a big one, didn’t I? [00:52:37] Skye Jethani: It is a big one. And there’s so many landmines in this. I generally don’t like using the language of servant leader because especially again, in American evangelical culture, the assumptions behind it are misunderstood. So let me unpack that a little bit. [00:52:57] Skye Jethani: Usually, when we think of servant leader, we think of a person with authority or power who nonetheless does humble acts of service, right? So it’s the pastor who’s out there shoveling the snow o ,the church leader, who’s still taking out the garbage and you go, gee, look at,  pastor Steve, isn’t he humble? And he’s a servant leader and he’s doing that thing. Just like Jesus washed the disciples feet. In my view it’s great. I’m glad a pastor does that. I certainly wouldn’t want to disparage it, but I don’t think that’s really what servant leadership means. In John 13, that scene where Jesus washes the disciples feet, what he’s really doing there is not only humiliating himself, he’s humiliating his disciples. They had been arguing about who’s the greatest. And then Jesus strips naked and starts washing their feet, taking this grotesquely humiliating role. And he gets to Peter and Peter’s like, there’s no way you’re washing my feet. And he says, if you don’t let me wash your feet, you can have no place with me. [00:54:03] Skye Jethani: Which is like, wow, that’s a pretty strong statement. What’s going on there? In that culture the relationship between a rabbi and a disciple was well established, and a disciple’s identity was completely defined by who their rabbi was. So when Peter and John and James and the others, when they left their fishing boats and their toll booths and all the other things they were doing to become a follower of Rabbi Jesus, Peter especially was thinking, this is a pretty good deal, because I’m leaving a meager fishing business to become the disciple of the most powerful guy I’ve ever seen, who’s probably going to take over the world. [00:54:41] Skye Jethani: And that’s why, am I going to get to sit at your right on your left? Where am I going to get, like, this was a great deal. Cause my rabbi is like bigger than Moses. And then he sees his rabbi do the most humiliating and embarrassing task imaginable. And so what Jesus is saying to Peter is, If you think this is humiliating to me, it’s even more humiliating for you, Peter, because I’m your rabbi, which means you’re even lower than me. [00:55:05] Skye Jethani: And then at the end of the whole scene, he says, I, your teacher and rabbi have done this. You should do likewise. I think the message he’s really saying there is stop caring what others think about you. And love in a self-sacrificial way, take up your cross, die to yourself and follow me. [00:55:37] Skye Jethani: So when I then look at what does that mean in 21st century American church world, nobody is going to look at a pastor shoveling snow or taking out garbage and go, Oh my gosh, what a loser. Most church worlds go, Oh, that’s great. He’s doing something noble and kind and helping out and everything. No one’s going to think he’s a humiliated nothing because of that. So what I’m looking for is a pastor who has given up on their own reputation, who’s doesn’t care how many followers they have on Twitter, who’s not worried about, are they going to have a bestselling book? [00:56:00] Skye Jethani: Isn’t counting how many people showed up every Sunday because that’s a stroke to their ego. It’s where they have truly died to themselves. They know who they are and where they’re going, like Jesus did at the beginning of John 13. They know they belong to God, and they know they’ve been called by him, and they’re set free then to love sacrificially, without caring about their own reputation and ego. So that's, I think, a better definition of a servant leader, the person whose ego is not driving their ministry. That’s hard to spot without real relational connection and knowing somebody well. [00:56:44] Skye Jethani:  I’m all for that kind of serpent leader and it’s rare. I’ve known men and women like that. Sometimes they have an ecclesiastical title. Sometimes they don’t. But they are the salt and light in the church today. And I pray that God will bring us more of them because we desperately need them in the American church. [00:57:02] Julie Roys: I love that. That’s so good, Skye. Thank you. Well, we have to wrap this because I’ve got my grandson’s first soccer game coming up and I’ve got to boot out of here to go see that. [00:57:15] Skye Jethani: I actually have a soccer game tonight too for my high school daughter. So I’ve got to do that too. [00:57:19] Julie Roys: But this has been really good and really rich. I so appreciate this book that you’ve written. Like we said, we’re offering that to anybody who gives a gift to The Roy’s Report this month. Just really grateful for you, Skye. And I think people, when they hear this, they’re like, wow, that guy’s in your church. And we have like so many people who are deep thinkers like this in our church. And it’s been an incredible gift. And it’s been an incredible thing to iron sharpening iron, which we’ve had that opportunity. So just feel blessed to have you as my brother and just appreciate this time we spent. [00:57:57] Skye Jethani: And thankful for all the good work you and your team at The Roy’s Report are doing in helping people navigate a really difficult season in the church and hopefully find healing and deeper communion with God and one another. It’s valuable, valuable work. I’m grateful to have a small little role in this podcast now as a part of it. [00:58:15] Julie Roys: And you’re going to have to watch this podcast now. It’ll be your first. [00:58:18] Skye Jethani: Yes, I probably will. [00:58:20] Julie Roys: Well, blessings to you. And thanks so much. [00:58:22] Skye Jethani: Thanks, Julie. [00:58:23] Julie Roys: And thanks so much for listening to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And just a reminder, we’re giving away Skye’s book, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? to anyone who gives a gift of 25 or more to The Roy’s Report this month. As I often say, we don’t have advertisers or big donors at The Roy’s Report. We simply have you. The people who care about reporting the truth and restoring the church. So if you’re passionate about our mission, please go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATED. Also, just a q

Today we're studying Acts 2:1-13, the passage that essentially describes the birth of the Christian church. It begins to answer an important question: What is the purpose of baptism with the Holy Spirit?--The PursueGOD Truth podcast is the “easy button” for making disciples – whether you're looking for resources to lead a family devotional, a small group at church, or a one-on-one mentoring relationship. Join us for new episodes every Tuesday and Friday. Find resources to talk about these episodes at pursueGOD.org.Help others go "full circle" as a follower of Jesus through our 12-week Pursuit series.Click here to learn more about how to use these resources at home, with a small group, or in a one-on-one discipleship relationship.Got questions or want to leave a note? Email us at podcast@pursueGOD.org.Donate Now --Today's lesson is exciting, because there's something for everyone:Those who are into this topicPentecostals, charismaticsThose who are freaked out by this topicChristians from more chill religious backgroundsNon-denoms, mainlineThose who are new to ChristianityNot sure what we're even talking aboutStart with this: “baptism with the HS” from a pentecostal perspectiveThe concept gained particular prominence during the early 20th-century Pentecostal revival, beginning with the Azusa Street Revival in 1906. It emphasized a powerful, personal experience of God's presence and the manifestation of spiritual gifts.The Assemblies of God is one of the largest Pentecostal denominations in the world, founded in 1914 in Hot Springs, Arkansas.Foursquare Church - Founded in 1923 by evangelist Aimee Semple McPherson in Los Angeles, California.In the mid-20th century, this emphasis spread beyond Pentecostal denominations to the broader Charismatic movement which embraced similar experiences of the Holy Spirit.The Jesus Movement in the 60's and 70's, along with Calvary Chapel. The Vineyard Movement began in the late 1970s and was founded by John Wimber. The first Vineyard church was officially established in 1982 in Anaheim, California.Catholic charismatic movementHillsong, Bethel Church, etc.In these environments you'll hear about “baptism with the HS”There's one main evidence: speaking in tonguesSo it becomes a huge focus in these churchesOften becomes the main thingIt'll freak you out if you've never seen it beforeBut what does the Bible say about it? That's what we'll answer today: What is the purpose of baptism with the Holy Spirit?We don't believe things based on how weird or normal they seemWe look to God and his Word in all we do (and believe) First of all, “baptism with the HS” is in the Bible, not just made up by the pentecostals and charismaticsThe term was coined by Jesus! Acts 1:5 (NLT) “John baptized with water, but in just a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”This is why the disciples went back to JerusalemPracticed disciplines of connection, prayer, Bible studyWaited on God with great expectationBut not exactly sure what it would look likeBaptism with the HS was a biblical concept way before it was a pentecostal thingThe real question is what is the purpose? That's what our text will answer todayBecause the Pentecostal movement traces its roots back to Acts ch...

Continuing the conversation regarding what makes a church healthy, Wes and Luke discuss other values and practices that should shape our churches to be more healthy. Read more on this in Luke's article: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com/p/10-things-john-wimber-looked-for  ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

What are the characteristics or qualities that indicate a church's health? While many focus purely on numbers, what are more important values that should be found in local churches? On this episode of the podcast, Wes & Luke interact with John Wimber's values that he looked for in a local church. Read more on this in Luke's article: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com/p/10-things-john-wimber-looked-for ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

On this episode of the podcast, Luke Geraty and Wes McLachlan recap our recent interview with Bradley Andrews on Alan Scott's leadership. In episode 30, we learned that rather than focusing on the Person of the Holy Spirit, there's a huge emphasis on the "supernatural" at Dwelling Place Anaheim? Here, Wes & Luke provide a biblical-theological response to such. ❇️ Recommended Reading in Relation to Alan Scott ❇️ The Roys Report (https://julieroys.com/tag/alan-scott/). Independent Investigation on Alan Scott (https://www.vineyardchurches.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Causeway_Coast_Vineyard_Review_Report_1st_November_2023_web.pdf). ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

On this episode of the podcast, Luke Geraty has a discussion with Bradley Andrews to evaluate the biblical, theological, & pastoral leadership of Alan Scott at Dwelling Place Anaheim. Bradley was on staff under Alan's leadership and shares his experience from that time. ❇️ Recommended Reading in Relation to Alan Scott ❇️ The Roys Report (https://julieroys.com/tag/alan-scott/). Independent Investigation on Alan Scott (https://www.vineyardchurches.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Causeway_Coast_Vineyard_Review_Report_1st_November_2023_web.pdf). ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

Jay and Clifton follow Mike Knott's tragic tale of The Grape Prophet as told by his project LS Underground. https://www.podbean.com/media/share/dir-dyz5d-1e40bd00https://www.podbean.com/media/share/dir-adjc6-1e5cb927https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRNZP1BmmxYhttps://lsunderground.bandcamp.com/musichttps://lostinohio.com/the-grape-prophet-liner-notes/?fbclid=IwAR0kTNk41Q6k1cjacx2OSVHHdW9LHei3e7QgtFZpQwjYUPkC9UyrmiEp4g4https://knottheads.com/https://knottheads.com/album/ls-underground-the-grape-prophet/

On this episode of the Sacramental Charismatic, Luke and Wes discuss how churches can be more missional during Easter. As the church gathers to celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus, this is a unique opportunity to reach more people with the life-changing message of the gospel. Shout out to John Barnett for the new intro music! We'll have a link to his music as soon as it drops! ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. - Matthew 7:28-29 This weekend, we are continuing our series, Kingdom Culture, looking at all the ways that we live out our callings under the rule and reign of King Jesus! John Wimber once said, "When God calls you to an extraordinary task, He provides extraordinary resources." And we sometimes worry or wonder how we can accomplish what Jesus is calling us to, but like Peter taking steps onto the water, it's all about trusting the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to help us do what Jesus is calling us to do! It's sometimes nerve-wracking or intimidating, but Jesus is so good, so kind, and so powerful; all authority has been given to Him, and in turn, He sends us out to continue His work and ministry. Whether that's in your office or with your family or friends, the whole world needs Kingdom People to go out and do the stuff!

This week, Ken and Grant discuss all things Orbis. Join us as we kick off season 5 of God is Not a Theory. We look forward to what God has in store for all of us living and working in His Kingdom.  Tune into Episode 2 of Season 5 of God is Not A Theory. We long for your faith to be encouraged and the fire of the Holy Spirit to ignite in your life by hearing these testimonies. Live up to the Holy Spirit's potential in you and prove to your world that God Is Not a Theory.  Thanks for listening to God Is Not A Theory, a podcast of Orbis Ministries. For more information, visit orbisministries.org (http://orbisministries.org/). If you'd like to hear more from Ken or join the Orbis Ministries community, you can download the free Orbis Ministries Mobile App here: https://get.theapp.co/kjwz (https://get.theapp.co/kjwz) Partner with Orbis Financially http://tinyurl.com/yfe3974h Do you want to join the GINAT Facebook group?  Search for God is Not a Theory  Send a Facebook message to Bryan Orbis.   Orbis prayer Network: https://orbisministries.org/orbis-prayer-network/ Orbis School of Ministry - https://orbissm.com/  "Ken operates 95% differently than people who travel and minister." - Grant Pemberton  "We will get to see the lord encounter people and see them get healed and set free." - Grant Pemberton  We want people to learn how to talk about their faith in a normal way that looks like what went on in the Bible and leads to converts. - Ken Fish  Send the podcast an email at podcast@orbisministries.org Download the Orbis Ministries app from the Apple or Google Play store.  "It may be Kingdom work, but it is still work." - John Wimber  "You can follow someone's level of discipleship based on the level of time, money, and energy they are giving to purposes of the Kingdom." - Ken Fish 

This week, Ken and Grant talked with Michael Miller, one of the founders of Remenant Radio. Michael and Ken have traveled together on ministry trips, and Ken has spoken at Michael's Church. Michael grew up with a Jewish mother and a Mormon Father. When he was 15, someone handed him a Bible, which he thought was a book of ancient spells; he was fascinated by Jesus and decided to follow Him.   Tune into episode 50 in Season 4 of God is Not A Theory. We long for your faith to be encouraged and the fire of the Holy Spirit to ignite in your life by hearing these testimonies. Live up to the Holy Spirit's potential in you and prove to your world that God Is Not a Theory.  Thanks for listening to God Is Not A Theory, a podcast of Orbis Ministries. For more information, visit orbisministries.org (http://orbisministries.org/). If you'd like to hear more from Ken or join the Orbis Ministries community, you can download the free Orbis Ministries Mobile App here: https://get.theapp.co/kjwz (https://get.theapp.co/kjwz) Click here for all of our end-of-year givers: https://orbisministries.org/support-orbis/  Check out the Remnant Radio podcast here: https://theremnantradio.com.  Fired from the NAR (NAR stands for the New Apostolic Reformation) Remnant Radio episode: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0L2bV6mkSyW94YXFWzeOSx?si=sFtZuGCCTVWQVDdAkYkCHQ "I came to the conclusion that the gifts are for us today based on the scriptures, but then I had an encounter. I needed someone who spoke my language." - Michael Miller  "Jack Deere Prophesied that I would get fired from my job at Young Life because of my relationship with him. A month later, I was called into the office excited about Young Life." - Michael Miller "I have nothing but great things to say about Young Life or even my exit. It was just the Lord moving me where He had me." - Michael Miller  "You know your someone's pastor if you can tell them 'NO.'" - John Wimber    "Harsh or blunt, if you can take the critique, you will grow." - Michael Miller  "We prefer Biblical theology over systematic theology." - Ken Fish "Biblical Theology lets the Bible speak for itself." Ken Fish  "We are trying to see the church reformed. We are trying to see the church come alive. We want to move away from all the weird and dead stuff." - Ken Fish  "We do not want to fall to the peril of what amounts to yellow journalism - losing a grasp on the truth to gain more followers or money." - Ken Fish  "Follow up with people who have vanished from your church community." - Ken Fish  Christian Universalism: Effectively, everyone will come to believe in Christ.  Skeletons in God's Closet: https://www.amazon.com/Skeletons-Gods-Closet-Surprise-Judgment/dp/0529100819/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3149G8GCBK933&keywords=skeletons+in+god%27s+closet&qid=1703142901&sprefix=skeletons+in+gods+closet%2Caps%2C200&sr=8-1 Rules for Radicals https://www.amazon.com/Rules-Radicals-Practical-Primer-Realistic/dp/0679721134/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1XPLB3VKVM1W7&keywords=Rules+for+Radicals&qid=1703142997&sprefix=rules+for+radicals%2Caps%2C171&sr=8-1 GINAT S3E39 - The Doctrine of Hell https://youtu.be/bdKNCj4GuGY?si=pzZNkz20LDsL1iaW

On this episode of the Sacramental Charismatic, Luke has a discussion with Robby McAlpine. Robby has written some excellent books, including "Post-Charismatic: A Road to Recovery" (https://amzn.to/3GLKXoE). Shout out to John Barnett for the new intro music! We'll have a link to his music as soon as it drops! ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

Like a classroom where a substitute teacher fills in for the regular, I am, here on the holidays, interrupting my series. How should believers go about our Christ-given mission? Maybe it is 33%, each, with an eye to the past, present, and future? Maybe it is a balanced 50%-50% mix of indigenous and ancient Jewish culture? Using my recent trip to Costco to fill my truck and the recent Roman Catholic Synod on Synodality I think aloud with you about how we ought to frame mission. Along the way I also describe the work of some of my Christian heroes: Mother Theresa, John Wesley, Phil Keaggy, and John Wimber. How did they go about Christian mission? Come laugh and think with me!

Ephesians 4:12 Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. We are continuing our series, The Main and the Plain, this weekend at the Vineyard! John Wimber, one of the founders of the Vineyard, had many expressions that helped convey deep theological truths. He would often talk about being "naturally supernatural" in how we pray for one another. Or that Christ's followers were called to go out and do the works of ministry because "the meat is in the streets." Even this idea of "the main and the plain" was a Wimberism describing how we ought to read the Bible and look for the "main and plain" reading rather than do all types of gymnastics to interpret a passage.

Ephesians 4:12 Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. We are continuing our series, The Main and the Plain, this weekend at the Vineyard! John Wimber, one of the founders of the Vineyard, had many expressions that helped convey deep theological truths. He would often talk about being "naturally supernatural" in how we pray for one another. Or that Christ's followers were called to go out and do the works of ministry because "the meat is in the streets." Even this idea of "the main and the plain" was a Wimberism describing how we ought to read the Bible and look for the "main and plain" reading rather than do all types of gymnastics to interpret a passage.

Myles interviews Avner Boskey from Beersheva, in the Negev desert.Avner and Rachel raised 4 sons, all of whom served in the Israeli Defense Force. They are dedicated to stirring up the creative arts with a view to prophetic unfolding of the Word in our day. They are international speakers, authors, songwriters and always provide Biblical insight, especially in times of crisis. Avner has served as a congregational leader in St. Petersburg Russia and as an advisor to Mike Bickle at IHOP and alongside John Wimber in the Vineyard movement.Please share this update.Please PRAY  -  Psalm 122:6You can partner with them and obtain their resources at:www.davidstent.orgSupport the show

"Today, we have the privilege of interviewing Kevin Noble Springer! Kevin, a retired pastor, is renowned for his dynamic church planting ministry, visionary editing, and his role as the brilliant author behind numerous books and articles that have touched hearts worldwide in multiple languages. Notably, 'Power Evangelism,' a thrilling collaboration with John Wimber, ascended to the ranks as the twelfth most impactful book in evangelicalism over the past 50 years, according to Christianity Today in 2016!Get ready for an exciting revelation! Kevin's latest book, 'A Road of Unimagined Adventure: How Big Words Have Shaped My Life,' is set to hit the shelves this November. In today's interview, Kevin will take us on an awe-inspiring journey through his life adventures, unveiling how God's plans surpass our wildest dreams!Join us today at 4 PM CST for an engaging interview, where we'll explore the profound influence of 'big words' and how they can guide us toward greatness. You won't want to miss out on this epic conversation!

How can we tell when a new thing that replaces our good thing is actually a God thing? This morning we take a look at Acts 11 (as well as a story from John Wimber) to discover the answer to that question.

On this episode of the Sacramental Charismatic, Wes and Luke reflect on an article making its round on the internet -- "Departure: Why I Left the Church" (https://www.restorativefaith.org/post/departure-why-i-left-the-church). Luke wrote an article addressing a significant challenging facing pastors: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com/p/the-worst-part-of-pastoring Shout out to John Barnett for the new intro music! We'll have a link to his music as soon as it drops! ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER!

Psalm 104:1-18, 2 Chronicles 33:21-35:19, 2 Corinthians 2:12-3:6. John Wimber defined this kind of ministry as ‘meeting the needs of others with the resources of God' Wonderfully, this type of ministry is now available to you and me

Psalm 104:1-15, 2 Chronicles 34:31, 2 Corinthians 2:14-17, 3:1-6. John Wimber defined this kind of ministry as ‘meeting the needs of others with the resources of God' Wonderfully, this type of ministry is now available to you and me

We have a rich heritage of Worship in the Vineyard, and in this seminar, Susanne Courtney interviews a panel of worship leaders as they reflect on what God birthed in the Vineyard and what he is now cultivating in this season. As well as Harmony Smith, Jon Solway and Olu Meduoye, we were privileged to welcome Eddie Espinosa to this panel. Eddie is a Vineyard worship leader who worked with John Wimber in the early Vineyard churches in California and recorded worship songs through Vineyard Music Group.

Supernatural encounters, seeing Jesus breakthrough shamanism, and move in power, signs and wonders! Ken Fish shares his story from encountering Jesus, being mentored by John Wimber, and writing his adventures 'On the Road with the Holy Spirit.' This is a conversation you don't want to miss. If you are filled with the Spirit there should be evidence, right? Receive our free download, 'Evidence of Being Filled with the Holy Spirit.' Subscribe to our teaching and equipping podcast, 'Spirit Empowered Living with Jared and Rochelle Laskey.' Subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Libsyn, Google, Podpage or paste our RSS feed on your favorite podcast app.  Go to Covenant Eyes and check out their resources, purchase their software and download their app at Covenant Eyes. Get 30-Days Free with promo code FIREBORN (web-based purchase only). Purchase using our promo code using your desktop or laptop and then download the app on your phone/Ipad/tablets.

On this episode of the Sacramental Charismatic, Wes and Luke reflect on the movie "Jesus Revolution" as well as a recent VUSA webcast. Check out Wes' corresponding article: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com/  Watch the webcast here: https://youtu.be/svZemXIggA0 ❇️ Recommended John Wimber Books ❇️ "Power Healing," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiA3YV) "Power Evangelism,' by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2TP6Nyd) "Power Points," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/31NwqSC) "Everyone Gets to Play," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2Z4PJdf) "The Way In is the Way On," by John Wimber (https://amzn.to/2ZdiTCg) ❇️ Recommended Books ABOUT John Wimber ❇️ "John Wimber: The Way it Was," by Carol Wimber (https://amzn.to/2HiUFQJ) "Never Trust a Leader Without a Limp: The Wit and Wisdom of John Wimber," by Glenn Schroder (https://amzn.to/3PtHvSM) "John Wimber: His Life and Ministry," by Connie Dawson (https://amzn.to/3FSpYAI) "Worshiping with the Anaheim Vineyard: The Emergence of Contemporary Worship," by Andy Park, Lester Ruth, & Cindy Rethmeier (https://amzn.to/31TDm0w) "Toronto in Perspective: Papers on the New Charismatic Wave of the 1990s," edited by David Hilborn (https://amzn.to/2L3nIsP) "John Wimber: His Influence & Legacy," edited by David Pytches (https://amzn.to/2ZfgbfC) || FOLLOW US || Website: https://sacramentalcharismatic.substack.com Luke IG: https://instagram.com/lukegeraty Luke Twitter: https://twitter.com/lukegeraty Wes IG: https://www.instagram.com/wesmac5 Wes Twitter: https://twitter.com/wesmac5 SUPPORT US BY SUBSCRIBING AND CONSIDERING BECOMING A PAID SUBSCRIBER! Purchasing books from the links provided gets us credit and helps support our work! Thanks!

Ken's BioKen Fish is the founder of Orbis Ministries (formerly Kingdom Fire Ministries). He is a native of the Los Angeles, California area and an honors graduate of Princeton University with a degree in History and Philosophy of Religion. He subsequently earned his Master of Divinity degree from Fuller Theological Seminary with emphasis in theology and intercultural communications. Ken had a 25-year career as a Fortune 500 executive after earning an MBA in finance and strategy from UCLA's Anderson Graduate School of Management. Throughout his life, Ken has worked with parachurch ministries and in the church. In the 1980s he worked full-time for John Wimber for several years at Vineyard Ministries International (VMI). Since 2010, his ministry has taken him to over 40 countries on all six inhabited continents, working alongside churches of varying denominations and great diversity. Ken's work includes vision-casting, teaching on leadership, equipping the saints in healing, prophecy, and deliverance to further the advance of the Kingdom of God, and releasing fresh anointing in the midst of visitation. He has worked alongside national leaders in many countries, led training events for the International Association of Healing Rooms in different parts of the US, and been interviewed on nationally-syndicated radio and television shows such as The Eric Metaxas Show and Premier Christianity. He also hosts his own podcast, “God is Not a Theory”. His meetings are often accompanied by manifest signs and wonders that include prophetic ministry and healing of many types.Stay Connected:Ken FishKen's Resource: On the Road with the Holy SpiritPersonal Website | orbisministries.orgKen's Podcast | God is Not a Theory PodcastRachel ScottWebsite| https://rachelgscott.com/Website| http://the5leaps.com/Instagram| https://www.instagram.com/iamrachelgscott/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/iamrachelgscottSponsored Resources Mentioned:5 Week Leap Mentoring: Sign Up HereRGS Group: Learn More HereThe 5 Leaps Quick Guide: Grab it Here