Podcasts about talbot seminary

In this episode of the Cartographers, we sit down with Kyle Strobel, professor at Talbot Seminary, to get at what spiritual formation is and isn't. It isn't a life hack or even growth. Find out more about Kyle, his substack and his courses here. The Cartographers is a production of Willowbrae Institute. Find out more at willowbrae.org. Be sure to signup for Willowbrae's newsletter and rate and review the podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Kelly Arabie Debbie Swindoll What does effective discipleship entail? What can we do in our churches to become more successful disciple-makers? How can we as individuals do a better job of discipling others? Debbie Swindoll joined BOW Ministry Team Member Kelly Arabie to discuss this important topic. Debbie calls us to dive into community if we want to grow as disciples of Jesus. What does that look like? Debbie provides practical and insightful answers to guide us to effective discipleship. You can watch this episode if you prefer. Other resources Don't miss the other discipleship video that Debbie did for BOW, Re-imagining Discipleship: A Spiritual Formation Perspective. It is part of a series that you won't want to miss if you are involved in making decisions about discipleship or if you disciple others. Other podcasts in the Re-imagining Discipleship series: A Theological Perspective, A Church Leader Perspective, A Missions Perspective, and A Kingdom Perspective, and Reclaiming the Fear of the Lord. Receive a free sample of Debbie's spiritual formation curriculum Life with God Time Stamps 00:24 Introductions 01:36 Ministry of Grafted Life 02:54 What does effective mean in terms of discipleship? 05:35 Developing the Fruit of the Spirit 09:35 The relational component 15:16 The challenge to experience being seen & known 19:05 What does this kind of relationship with others look like? 22:02 What does such a relationship with God look like? 24:43 It's very personal 29:37 Growing in community 33:03 Helpful resources TranscriptKelly >> Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women podcast. My name is Kelly Arabie. I'm one of the team members here at Beyond Ordinary Women, and today we are talking with Debbie Swindoll of Grafted Life Ministries. Along with her husband Kurt, Debbie founded Grafted Life and serves as the Executive Director and the director of Church Formation. Debbie graduated with a Masters in Spiritual Formation and Soul Care from the Institute of Spiritual Formation at Talbot Seminary and Biola University. Debbie also serves as the Spiritual Formation Pastor at her church, Journey Community Church. Debbie, welcome. We are so happy to have you. Debbie >> Thank you. It's a long thing there. I'm getting older. I'm old now. Kelly >> No. Debbie previously spoke with Kay about Reimagining Discipleship. And so I want to encourage our listeners to go ahead (and we'll talk about that more at the end) but listen to that video as well. That will give you an introduction to our topic today. Today we are talking about effective discipleship. Deb, why don't you start with telling us a little bit about the Ministry of Grafted Life. Debbie >> Well, we started Grafted Life in 2010 and it was a bunch of colleagues of mine that had degrees in spiritual formation, which is kind of another word for discipleship, or how people grow, how we're formed as Christians. And we really had heart for the church. We'd gone to this graduate program and we'd experienced a lot of life change and we'd seen people change significantly. And yet we knew that everybody can't go to a graduate program. Everybody can't go to seminary. And so what, what could we bring back to the church that would maybe be more effective, more meaningful, more transformational for people in their lives and in their growth, in their spiritual growth. So we started really praying into that and thinking about it. We ended up developing some curricula and also starting an association for spiritual directors that could really serve people in the church and come alongside them in their spiritual growth. Kelly >> So as today we're talking about effective discipleship, what in your definition is effective? Debbie >> Okay, that's a really good question because I'm not sure when we think about discipleship, we always think about effective. You know, if you just look up in the dictionary, what is effective,

Rich Ferreira hosts previous guest Todd Morehead for this episode. Todd is the founder of Grafted Ministries and the creator of two films including Hope in the Holy Land: Delving Beneath the Surface of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.Today, Todd and Rich return to discussing the age-old conflict. Although it is a heavy topic, it is imperative that we not only NEVER FORGET but seek truth in the tension. Todd's work tries to give an unbiased lens with which to view the Israeli and Palestinian people and a platform for each of their voices to be heard.After October 7, Israel will never be the same. Todd's hope is that his film and docuseries will educate, change the way people (especially Christians) view Israel, and encourage love and support for the Jewish people.GAIN a heart for both Jews and Arabs in the Holy Land.LEARN the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.DISCERN the truth from the propaganda.STAND with people who are taking real risks for peace. WATCH THE SERIES: https://www.youtube.com/@hopeintheholylandFUND THE SERIES:https://raisedonors.com/graftedministries/fund-the-seriesTHE MINISTRY:https://www.graftedministries.com/WATCH THE FEATURE DOCUMENTARY:https://hopeintheholyland.com/Todd's bio:Todd Morehead is from Southern California, where he lives with his wife and four children. He is a graduate of Talbot Seminary with an M.A. in Biblical & Theological Studies and the author of Grafted In: Understanding God's Role for You and Your Jewish Neighbors. He has a passion for leading Christians to Israel—a country he has visited over twenty-five times—to help instill God's heart for the people and the Land. Todd directed and co-produced the documentary Promised Land: Israel Through The Eyes of Surfers (2012) and is the Co-Creator/Producer of both the feature documentary Hope in the Holy Land: Delving Beneath the Surface of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (2021) and the new docuseries Hope in the Holy Land: The Series. In his spare time, he loves to surf.

Our guest is Anjuli Paschall, author of the new book "Feel: A Collection of Liturgies Offering Hope for Every Complicated Emotion." We have a conversation about the power and importance of our emotions, and how to engage with them in a healthy, transformative way. Anjuli has such an insightful and nuanced perspective on this topic. She talks about how she grew up in a Christian culture that often viewed certain emotions as "bad" or something to be suppressed. But she's come to see how crucial it is to name, feel, and bring our full range of emotions to God. We discuss how language and culture shape the way we experience and express our feelings. Anjuli shares powerful examples of how simply naming an emotion can be the first step towards healing and growth. And she walks us through the "liturgies" or guided prayers in her book - ways to authentically bring our messy, complicated emotions to the Lord. Our emotions are so central to the human experience, and to our spiritual lives and Anjuli offers wisdom and practical tools for embracing the full breadth of what we feel, and allowing that to draw us closer to God and one another. I think you'll find this discussion really insightful and helpful. So join us. Anjuli Paschall grew up in San Diego. She studied psychology at Point Loma Nazarene University and earned her graduate degree from Talbot Seminary in spiritual formation and soul care. She has been married for close to twenty years to her childhood friend Sam. Together, they founded Sojourn and Sage, a retreat and residency home for the weary. They have five beautiful children: Manoah, Samuel, Noelle, Hannaly, and Mea. Anjuli is the author of Stay and Awake. As a pastor's wife, writer, and spiritual director, she learned that feelings are the pathway to prayer. She loves chai tea, golden hour, and the color orange.Anjuli's Book:FeelJoin Our Patreon for Early Access and More: PatreonConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Threads at www.facebook.com/shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.instagram.com/shiftingculturepodcast/https://twitter.com/shiftingcultur2https://www.threads.net/@shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.youtube.com/@shiftingculturepodcastConsider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link belowSupport the show

WARNING: This episode contains discussion of self harm and may not be suitable for young or sensitive viewers   Steve Kang experienced hell after a demon disguised as an Asian grandpa convinced him to end his pain by taking his life. Through the prayers of Christians, Steve got another chance at life and has dedicated himself to spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.    In this episode Steve shares: Growing up as a Buddhist A rebellious stage of his life where he experimented with drugs  An episode of drug induced psychosis and how a demon appeared and led him to harm himself in his home with a knife, nearly dying A group of Christians who prayed for Steve to be saved in the hospital and how God would answer this prayer God moves to heal Steve of the PTSD he had after his visit to hell by giving him a heaven experience (and what he saw there) How his life has changed today, seminary and ministry   Steve's Bio: Founder Revive The Nations, Church Planter, Author and Speaker Pastor Steve Kang is married to Goeun and graduated from Talbot Seminary in 2008. He was saved from a near death accident in 1998 and has been serving as full-time and now bivocational pastor for the next generation for the past 20 years. He is called to make disciples and plant churches and bring the lost back home as well.   Steve was featured in a recent movie, After Death: https://www.angel.com/movies/after-death More links for Steve's ministry: https://www.allnationsjc.org/ministry  - Revive the Nations page  Steve's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SteveKang9879 Steve's recent book: https://a.co/d/5Ef47Kw

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/w2rB6NZogbgThe American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, distrust of the church is at an all-time high. Young people raised in the church are leaving at an alarming rate. And, in a society where loneliness and spiritual hunger are rampant, people are turning elsewhere for help. In this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys welcomes Skye Jethani for a wide-ranging discussion on the crisis in the American church. Skye, a former editor at Christianity Today and former pastor, has for years co-hosted The Holy Post, a popular podcast. Recently, Skye wrote the provocatively titled book, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? In it, he looks at what the Bible really says about the church, then compares that with some of the prevailing beliefs and values popular in the church today. For example, the church is commonly referred to in Scripture as a family—but in modern America, it's become a corporation. In its pursuit of expansion, influence, and power, the church has sadly lost the essential Christian virtues of faith and love. As Skye writes, rather than feeling like valued members of God's family, today, many church members feel like replaceable cogs in a ministry machine. Is it any wonder that the church is suffering, and is it any wonder that people are leaving? For people who've had negative experiences in church and have lived through congregational crisis firsthand, this lively conversation brings clarity and hope. Guests Skye Jethani An award-winning author, speaker, and co-host of the Holy Post Podcast, Skye Jethani has written more than a dozen books and served as an editor and executive at Christianity Today for more than a decade. Raised in a religiously and ethnically diverse family, his curiosity about faith led him to study comparative religion before entering seminary and pastoral ministry. With a unique ability to connect Christian thought and contemporary culture, his voice has been featured in The New York Times, USA Today, and The Washington Post. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie Roys: There’s no doubt the American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, the distrust of the church is at an all-time high. Young people raised in the church are leaving at an alarming rate and we have a society where loneliness and spiritual hunger is rampant, but people are turning elsewhere for help. [00:00:21] Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roy-. And today I’m going to be discussing the crisis in the American church with Skye Jethani. Skye is a former editor at Christianity Today and a former pastor. He’s also co-host of the podcast, The Holy Post. [00:00:40] Julie Roys: And he’s a speaker and author of numerous books, including the provocatively titled, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? In the book, Skye looks at what the Bible really says about the church, then he compares that with some of the prevailing beliefs and values popular in the church today. For example, the church is commonly referred to in scripture as a family, but in modern America, it’s become a corporation. [00:01:05] Julie Roys: And in its pursuit of expansion, influence, and power, the church has sadly lost the essential Christian virtue of love. As Skye writes, now, rather than feeling like valued members of God’s family, many church members feel like replaceable cogs in a ministry machine. Is it any wonder that the church is suffering, and is it any wonder that people are leaving? [00:01:28] Julie Roys: I’m so excited to speak with Skye about the church, not just because he’s a great thinker and teacher, but because he’s my brother. Skye attends the same house church that my family attends, and I’ve seen his commitment to the church on a day to day, week by week basis, and it’s because of people like Skye that I haven’t given up on the church, even though I’ve had a ton of negative experiences. I still believe in the church. I still see her beauty. And so I’m so excited to share this podcast with you. [00:01:49] Julie Roys: But first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. [00:02:16] Julie Roys: The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like- minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Julie Roys: Also if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. [00:03:26] Julie Roys: Well, again, joining me is Skye Jethani, a former pastor who now co-hosts the popular podcast, The Holy Post. He also speaks and writes books, including one that we’re offering to listeners this month called What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? So Skye, welcome, and it’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:03:50] Skye Jethani: Thanks, Julie. I’m happy to be here. [00:03:51] Julie Roys: And you may be surprised to know this, but I’ve actually mentioned you numerous times on this podcast. Do  about this? [00:03:58] Skye Jethani: I do not, because I have to confess, I’ve not listened. [00:04:01] Julie Roys: You haven’t listened to our podcast? Well, that’s okay, but I’ve listened to the Holy Post. I’ve actually been on the Holy Post, which has been really fun. I’ve mentioned you because I use this term that you coined called the evangelical industrial complex. And so whenever I do that, I try to give you credit. I say, , this isn’t my term. This is Skye’s term. [00:04:24] Skye Jethani: I don’t need credit, but you’re appreciated. It isn’t like I get a kickback or anything from every time it’s spoken, but. Yeah, I think it was 2012 I wrote an article that I first used that phrase, and it just took off. A lot of people have used it since then. [00:04:37] Julie Roys: Well, it’s a great term, but for those who are listening who haven’t heard it before, what is the evangelical industrial complex? [00:04:45] Skye Jethani: Right. So it’s a riff off of President Eisenhower in his farewell address to the country. It’s on YouTube. I recommend people go watch it. It’s very interesting, but he gave a televised address to the country where he warned about the military industrial complex. Of course, Eisenhower, having been a general and the commander of the forces in Europe during world war two had a lot of credibility when it came to military stuff. [00:05:08] Skye Jethani: And his concern was that there was this permanent arms industry that had been developed after world war two and the military industrial complex, he said, needed a perpetual conflict and warfare to continue its business model. And so I kind of adopted that phrase, but talking about the evangelical industrial complex, which is this financial money-making industry that constantly needs celebrity leaders, celebrity pastors in particular, and big events to perpetuate its business model. [00:05:39] Skye Jethani: And so it tends to elevate leaders who may be quite talented but lack the character or the maturity to handle large audiences or significant influence. But the evangelical industrial complex will prop them up, publish their books, get them on the big stage, build a big platform for them in order to make lots of money off of this person’s talent and reputation. [00:06:06] Skye Jethani: And then we’re shocked when they end up cracking under the pressure or falling into some controversy or their church implodes. And especially when I was working at Christianity Today, And I got around the country and I was seeing kind of behind the curtain in a lot of these places. I was noticing that tendency over and over and over again, where it wasn’t the Godly mature tested people who were given platforms. [00:06:27] Skye Jethani: It was young, attractive, talented people who were given platforms. And so looking at this in different angles, like I just said, this is about making money. This isn’t about really building up the church. And so that’s the evangelical industrial complex. [00:06:42] Julie Roys: And there’s so much that you just said; just in those few paragraphs about the church and some of our assumptions about the church, the fact that we can have an industrial complex, the fact that we have so many financial interests, and we’re going to dive into a lot of that today. [00:07:01] Julie Roys: And I love your book because you take all of these things that are kind of, we’ve just adopted because we swim in this soup, right? And we don’t even know kind of these false ideas about church that we’ve imbibed. But they’re there. And when you begin to contrast them with scripture, you’re like, Oh my word. [00:07:19] Julie Roys: But as I mentioned in the open, you and I, not only know each other professionally, but we go to the same church and we go to a house church, which is a very unconventional form of church. And I know for me and a lot of others within our house church, we’ve come because there was some sort of, I would say many of us are church refugees. [00:07:44] Julie Roys: Something happened at the church that we were at. And I know I’ve talked about this before on this podcast that for us, it was losing trust in our leaders because of a sexual abuse coverup at the church. And so that was very concerning. Your story, I’m guessing, is a bit different, and I realized as we jumped into this, I mean, I know your former church, and I know some stuff that happened there, but I really don’t know your story of why you came to this house church, which is really, in some ways, unconventional form of church, but if you read the New Testament, it sounds awful lot like what they were doing back then. So, what’s your story? How’d you get there? [00:08:24] Skye Jethani: Quite by accident really. I was at the same church for 20 years and for, I don’t know, six, it’s hard to, to find, but I was on staff at the church for quite a few years. And then when I was at CT, I actually split my time between staff at the church and Christianity Today. [00:08:41] Skye Jethani: So these convoluted timeframes, but overall 20 years. And probably, uh, gosh, trying to get dates straight in my head. A few years before we landed at the house church, my wife and I were struggling, honestly, at the church. And I saw, I think partly because of my own ministry background and from my years at CT, where I had been around the country and seen behind the curtain at all kinds of different issues, I had growing concerns about what I saw happening at my own church. [00:09:12] Skye Jethani: And I took some of those concerns to some of the leaders. They did not share my perspective. They thought I was making a mountain out of a molehill. So in those years, my wife and I kind of decided, well, we’re going to take a step back from like deeper involvement because I was, I just saw yellow flags and yet this was our community. This was the people we loved, people we’d known, our kids were all born and raised in this church. So we were committed to the community, but I just decided as previously having been a significant leader there, I was going to take a step back. And those are hard couple of years because I was constantly told, well, should we be somewhere else? [00:09:52] Skye Jethani: I really wanted to be at a church where I felt like I could contribute my full strength and enthusiasm to the work of that community, and it just wasn’t going to happen at our church in that season. Then 2020 happens and the pandemic hits, and it’s like, Oh! God caused the global pandemic. So we don’t have to go to church and feel awkward anymore in this situation. [00:10:30] Skye Jethani: So like everyone else, our church closed. And so everyone moved online or figured out other alternatives. And a few months into the pandemic, Brady Wright reached out to me, who’s also part of our house church and a mutual friend. And he and I and our families have been friends for a long time. And he said that he knew a bunch of families that were all struggling with just feeling isolated. And it was still warm out. And he asked if we’d be open to gathering in someone’s backyard under a tree, social distance for like a fellowship gathering where we would read scripture, pray for one another, and just have a very, very rudimentary kind of worship gathering. [00:10:53] Skye Jethani: So we started doing that in the spring and summer of 2020. And the people came from different churches, but we said we needed fellowship. And a lot of us were connected through Young Life. And then as we got into the winter months, we realized, well, we actually really like doing this with each other and our churches were still closed. [00:11:12] Skye Jethani: And most of us were maybe engaging somewhere online, but not in a meaningful way. And then by 2021, the church that we had been a part of all those years went through that significant crisis that it kind of finally blew up. And I had concerns that this was coming for years and then it did. [00:11:37] Skye Jethani: And so when people found out that my wife and I had been a part of this little under a tree gathering thing. And then in homes, after the weather got cold, some of those refugees started showing up at this little house church. And then there were other churches in our area, like yours, where people were struggling, and they ended up coming. And before you know it, Brady and I are looking at each other going, this was just supposed to be a COVID fellowship, temporary thing under a tree. [00:11:59] Skye Jethani: Um, But now we realize there’s a bigger reason for this, and there are people who need this place to feel connected and heal and a different way of approaching the basic functions of a Christian community. [00:12:21] Skye Jethani: So fast forward, we’re no longer at that church that we were at, obviously, for 20 years, I’m no longer ordained in that denomination. And this house church has just become our community and home. So we didn’t go into it as refugees from a church. We came into it just because of COVID, but it all kind of aligned with a number of years of suspecting things were coming. And then when they did, I think we were just a little ahead of the curve. I saw what could happen and it did. So maybe God was just sparing us from a more acute pain had we stayed more engaged. [00:12:50] Julie Roys: And we were church refugees, and I kind of knew this, but when we lost what was our church home, we spent about two years visiting tons of churches in the area and it just grieved me because I saw the same sort of system at every church that I just didn’t believe in anymore. [00:13:13] Julie Roys: I still believed in the church, I still believed in God, but I didn’t believe in the system anymore. We’re going to dive into that and actually in your introduction, I like how you talk about the church has changed. Our idea of what the church is, it’s just dramatically changed in 50 years. [00:13:33] Julie Roys: And I would a hundred percent affirm that. The church that I’m seeing everywhere right now, that’s called the evangelical church is not the church I grew up in at all, not even close. So talk about that change and what sort of prompted that change. [00:13:51] Skye Jethani: Gosh, I guess it depends on where you want to start the timeline. It’s probably older than 50 years, but I think one of the significant changes that happened at some point in the mid-20th century was sort of the professionalization of pastoral ministry. [00:14:08] Skye Jethani: And I don’t mean professionalization as in professional training. I think that’s very valuable. But here’s what I mean. Throughout most of Christian history, a pastor or minister would spend most of their time during the week out in the community. They met people in their homes, in their farms, in their factories, in the hospitals and the prisons, wherever they were out in the community, engaging people. [00:14:29] Skye Jethani: And then those people would congregate on Sunday. And the minister would lead them in sacraments and in teaching of scripture and all that. But he or she knew their sheep because they were out in the community. And at some point we flipped a switch and we said, if you desire to be ministered to, you now need to come to where the minister works. [00:14:51] Skye Jethani: You need to come into the church office, the church building, and we, the ministers will create a plethora of programs for you and your family to minister to you. And that was done, I think, with very good intentions and there’s an efficiency in that. But I think what it unintentionally did is it caused those of us who are ministers and our pastors to lose touch with the reality of our sheep. [00:15:15] Skye Jethani: We lost touch with what do people's lives actually look like Monday through Saturday? Because the only time we ever saw people, it was on our turf, on our terms, in our programs, and in our building. And once you made that switch from pastoral ministry out in the pastures, to pastoral ministry in the professional setting of the pastor in their building, well then it’s just a matter of how do I scale this factory? How do I make more programs? How do we make bigger worship services? How do I get more people into this system? [00:16:03] Skye Jethani: And then you get the explosion of mega churches and all of that. That was a big wake up call for me, even, after spending a number of years on staff at my church and then beginning to work outside, I realized, oh, I had no idea what the lives of the people in my church were actually like, because I only saw them in my context. I never saw them in their context. So I think that was a big change. And then you just get this massive growth of the institution because you add into this concoction the sacred secular divide. And a lot of people in ministry think that the only work that really matters ultimately is ministry. [00:16:23] Skye Jethani: So if something’s going to matter, it has to happen under the church umbrella, which is how you get like exercise facilities in a church. It’s how you get auto mechanics in a church. It’s how you get all these because it has to be under the church to count and you get these monstrosities ministries and in some communities that’s necessary. [00:16:43] Skye Jethani: I don’t want to completely diminish that, but a lot of places it isn’t. And then you need more and more professional people to manage and run these huge things. And that becomes the system that you’re talking about. You’re like, wow, this becomes really self-serving rather than ministering out into the community. [00:16:59] Skye Jethani: I think that’s one reason is just the simple professionalization of what happened. There’s a lot of other pieces of this we can unpack, but I think that one doesn’t get enough attention. [00:17:07] Julie Roys:  Yeah. And the church has become a corporation. It’s not  the family that a lot of us knew the church has. And I do think there were good intentions with things. Like I remember the first time we went to Willow Creek, which is the big mega church in the Chicago area, much less big now that everything’s happened with Bill Hybels But I remember going and the thing that struck me, because when I grew up in this little church, it was a great family, really great family, but nobody became a Christian there. Right? Like nobody came to the church and became a Christian. And I saw Willow Creek putting on these amazing shows on Sunday morning, very attractional model. And I remember inviting my boss. I was doing this little sales job in between college and graduate school. And I invited my boss, and my boss became a believer. [00:17:59] Julie Roys:  And then we started doing Bible studies and we used to fill up two rows of people on midweek. Like we’d have a sales meeting and then we go to Willow. And literally there were dozens of people became believers through that. So I mean that at first I was just like, this is amazing. It’s like the para-church church. I saw all of these para church type outreach ministries, that model coming into the church. But then some really unintended consequences we really weren’t thinking about it necessarily biblically, we were thinking about it pragmatically; how do we reach people? [00:18:43] Julie Roys: And that’s kind of how we got there, but really, what is the church, right? I mean, that’s what your book is getting to. What is the church? And I think you rightly say a lot of people think of it as an event, as a building, as an organization. So biblically, let’s go back down to our roots, right? And what is the church? [00:19:02] Skye Jethani: The simplest answer is it’s a community of women and men and children who have been redeemed by Jesus and are living in communion with him and one another. That’s it. And that obviously can take different forms and structures and different cultures and times, but that’s it. I think your observation that megachurch function very much like a parachurch outreach kind of ministry, I think it’s accurate. And I’ve been a part of a number, especially as a college student, a number of parachurch organizations like Campus Crusade CRU now, InterVarsity, Navigators, and at least in my time connected to some of those things. They’re very careful not to call themselves a church because they understand that we may be a ministry, we may do outreach and Bible studies and other things, but we are not a church. [00:20:05] Skye Jethani: But the funny part is when you go to some churches that more or less function like parachurch ministries. they embrace the name church. And I wrote a piece many years ago for Leadership Journal, where I was arguing that these very large churches shouldn’t really be called churches. And I started calling them VLMs, which is a new one. It’s a very large ministry. And I tried to come up with a name that wasn’t disparaging because they are doing ministry. They are reaching people like your colleagues, like they’re doing good work, but there’s something chafed on me about calling it a church when the historic definition and functions of a church community were really not present. But they were preaching the gospel. They were teaching scripture. They were engaging non-believers, all that great. But the functioning of a church in many of these places was not actually happening. [00:20:44] Skye Jethani: Para church organizations recognize that about themselves and stayed away from the label of church, but these mega churches and other ministries embrace the church name. All the while they weren’t really functioning as churches. [00:20:56] Julie Roys: And I think the pastor wasn’t functioning as a pastor. I mean, we have pastors who are basically preachers, but they’re not pastors. They’re not shepherds. [00:21:04] Skye Jethani: Right. Exactly. Yeah. [00:21:06] Julie Roys: You wrote one of the chapters is on, whose church is it really? And it reminded me of an experience I had last fall. So I was doing some investigating on a church where Albert Tate was the pastor. It’s in Monrovia, California, and he had admitted that he had an inappropriate texting relationship, but then his staff started complaining about bullying, about spiritual abuse. [00:21:33] Julie Roys: They found out that they really didn’t have any say. They didn’t own the church the way the bylaws were written. Albert, and a few of his key guys that he put on his board owned the church. I remember at this very contentious town hall meeting that I went to where they were basically the people were demanding their church back, and they were talking about Albert going on this sabbatical, and he came back really quickly. I forget how it’s several weeks. And then he said, and I’m just going to quote, he’s like, I’m not sure if a month would have made any difference, like saying if I had stayed on my break for a month longer. And unfortunately, I still feel like this is my church. And the place erupted. I mean, people were saying it’s our church, it’s our church. [00:22:25] Julie Roys: And then somebody was saying, no, it’s God’s church. But the way that we think about our church, I mean, there, it was really coming to a head, and it really was a matter of who owns this church? And we’ve got legal ownership, and then we’ve got spiritual ownership. So speak to that, because I think we have really messed this one up. [00:22:46] Skye Jethani: Yeah, and there’s a lot of pieces that intersect with this, because there’s different polities, there’s different church structures and governance structures, depending on your denomination and theology and all of that, it gets complicated. There’s some denominations in which they might have congregational polity, but the denomination owns the building, and it goes on and on like in the denomination I was a part of they were congregational in their polity, but the licensing and ordination of clergy was handled by the denomination. So there was some oversight. And one of the things, I used to have stronger opinions, I guess, about these matters, but as I’ve gotten around and had my own experience and just perhaps mellowed a bit with age, I’ve realized I have not yet found a church structure that cannot be abused. [00:23:33] Skye Jethani: They all have weaknesses, and they all have strengths. Some I think are better than others, but none’s immune. So if someone’s looking for a silver bullet of how do we structure these things to avoid abuse? Good luck. The best you can do is try to mitigate against it in your culture and environment by choosing certain models versus others, but they can all be abused. [00:23:56] Skye Jethani: But what you’re getting at in the story that you mentioned, and I’ve seen this up close as well, especially within evangelicalism, so much of our tradition is rooted in charismatic personalities and lowercase C charismatic personalities so that we tend to associate a church with its visible leader, the person in the pulpit. [00:24:22] Skye Jethani: I remember Outreach magazine, I think it was Outreach magazine years ago, used to do an issue every year on like the top hundred churches in the country or something like that. And they measure just based on size, based on attendance. And it was like a centerfold, a fold out. big thing and they’d list all these churches in this chart And there was the name of the church and then there was just a headshot of the senior pastor That was the visual representation of that church [00:25:02] Skye Jethani: So it is a structural problem, but it’s also a people problem We do that we do that because we tend to pick a church based on do I like the preacher? If that’s the criteria you have for picking your church, you’re reinforcing that same idea. And what really grieved me was when I realized, despite the rhetoric, despite the theology, despite all the words about we’re a body and it’s blah, blah, blah. When people in leadership, John Ortberg used to say that everyone has their mission, and then there’s the shadow mission. [00:25:28] Skye Jethani: There’s what you say your mission is, and then there’s what your mission really is. And what I discovered in some of these places is, you might say your mission is the health of the church, or it’s the growth of the church, or it’s the service of the community, whatever it might be, glorifying God. The shadow mission in an awful lot of these places is to protect the pastor and to maintain the pastor’s status and reputation. [00:25:50] Skye Jethani: And that for me to speak about the system being broken is when I lost trust and hope. Where it ceased to be about what’s best for the body, and it became what’s best for the figurehead who represents the body, not Jesus, but the pastor. Again, there’s a bazillion stories of how this happens. [00:26:15] Skye Jethani: I don’t want to point the finger just at the system because we are complicit in creating that system. Because I think for a lot of us, we get a lot of satisfaction after saying that’s my pastor. That’s my leader. Look how great my guy is. Look how many books he’s published, look how popular his radio show is. And I’m a part of that. So there’s something we get from that, which props them up. [00:26:36] Skye Jethani: And somewhere else I wrote about it as being like the relationship between an animal and a zookeeper. They both benefit. The animal gets fed in a safe place to live. And the zookeeper gets the satisfaction of. , being in charge of all these animals. And if you’re content with that model, we’re going to continue to have this dynamic where the leaders are synonymous with the church. And then the church does everything it can to prop up and protect its leader, and it’s really unhealthy for everybody involved. [00:26:57] Julie Roys: That’s interesting. And it is true that it’s comfortable for us because when we go to a church like that, everything’s provided for us, and we don’t really have to bring anything to the table. And that’s been one of the challenges with our house church, hasn’t it? We're like, nobody signed up to facilitate this week. Nobody signed up for worship leading. And it’s like, okay, yeah, we’re going to have to bring a little more to the table if we’re going to keep meeting. Again, biblically speaking, there’s commands about when you meet together, you should bring a psalm, you should bring a word of encouragement, you should bring, I mean, all of these things. [00:27:34] Julie Roys: We’ve gotten into a very consumeristic way of looking at church and of approaching it. And it’s on us. You’re right. You’re a hundred percent right. It is on us. And I think we don’t think of the church. as God’s church. But if we do think of the church as God’s church, then I think it also changes our expectations of who should be in that church. [00:27:59] Julie Roys: You mentioned how a lot of churches, when they plant a church, they’ll talk about their target audience, for example, which implies you can either be in their target or not be in their target, right? So, if you’re not in their target, then do you count? I mean, do you matter? A lot of assumptions there. But when we think about church and we think about who’s coming, how should we perceive that? [00:28:29] Skye Jethani: Yeah, I think that the breakdown here is the way our culture defines hospitality. Again, it’s become an industry; there’s the hospitality industry in the modern world. And so what we usually mean by hospitality, and this trickles down even to our homes, like when we think about do you have a hospitable home? You think, well, if I’m going to have guests, I’m going to find out what do they like? What do they want? I’m going to accommodate to their needs. I’m going to make sure that they're vegan or whatever it is. And we’re going to customize our home to fit the people who are coming. The hospitality industry has taught us, whether it’s airlines or hotels or resorts or whatever, find out who you’re marketing your resort to, and then give them what they want. Customer is king. And megachurches and the seeker movement came along, and they adopted that same approach. Well, we’re going to go after unchurched Harry and Mary, famously was Willow Creek’s thing. And they had this middle-class, middle-aged people, and they tailored a church around what they wanted. [00:29:30] Skye Jethani: That’s very different from the ancient world’s understanding of hospitality. Paul commands us to be hospitable to one another, and so does Peter, and it’s a very ancient idea going back to Abraham being hospitable to the strangers who are angels who came to his home. [00:29:46] Skye Jethani: In the ancient Near East, hospitality was not about catering or changing your home or community to accommodate your guests. It was instead, welcoming guests into the normalcy and flow of your home as it is; it’s been authentically yourself but welcoming those guests into it. [00:30:15] Skye Jethani: So, I’ll give you one example. When I was in seminary, some classmates of mine did an experiment where they took 2 television monitors to Northwestern University, right? This. secular university in Evanston, the north side of Chicago. Julie Roys: Where I got my graduate degree. [00:30:36] Skye Jethani:  Right. One monitor they showed a Catholic mass, and the other monitor they showed a very contemporary mega church worship gathering. And they asked students as they came by, hey, if you were ever to go to church, which one of these would you go to? And this would have been probably 1998-99 in that timeframe. The overwhelming response of the students was the Catholic mass. And then they asked them, why is that? And they said, well, that looks like a rock concert. I can get that anywhere, but that looks sacred. That looks holy. [00:30:54] Skye Jethani: And what they were getting at was, the mega churches said, we’re going to accommodate to the culture and give people what they want. But increasingly with my generation, and I think the younger ones, it smacks of pandering. It smacks of, well, you’re changing who you really are in order to be who you think I want you to be. [00:31:13] Skye Jethani: Whereas the Catholic mass, a lot of these students was like, well, they’re being authentic to who they are. That’s Christianity. They’re not trying to. I mean, goodness, the Catholics just started doing the mass in English not that long ago. They were very slow to accommodate, but that was seen as authentic. [00:31:28] Skye Jethani: So I think that the challenge for us today is not how do you change the church to be what the culture wants you to be? It’s how do you be authentically Christian in your church community? But how do you make it As accessible as possible to the people who might come in? [00:31:49] Skye Jethani: So in our case, like when we gather, we take communion every Sunday when we gather. I know plenty of seeker churches that would say, you don’t do that because it’s off putting to non-believers who don’t understand it. I would hope that if someone came into our community, and I’ve seen churches that do this really well, who take communion regularly, they explain what this is, what it means, why we do it, how to do it, the significance of it and invite people to participate or not, depending on their theology [00:32:13] Skye Jethani: . That’s being hospitable. It’s not changing who you are to accommodate people’s expectations. It’s welcoming them into who you are and to the normal flow of your family and household. And I think that’s a better approach and a more faithful approach than polling the community and finding out what they want. [00:32:29] Julie Roys: Absolutely. And I love that we do communion every week. I think a lot of churches have forsaken this. In fact, you talk about the, what is it, The coffee bar versus the Lord’s table? Like in a lot of these churches, the coffee bar has become more appealing than the Lord’s table to these churches. Again, because I think their mentality is we’re doing church, and this is where I feel like evangelism, which is such an important thing, but it’s almost superseded worship. [00:33:04] Julie Roys: Like, we forget why we come together. We don’t come together to reach the seeker. Not that God, obviously Jesus cared. He left the 99 to get the one. But we come together to worship God; that’s the primary. And so the table, describe, beyond what you’ve talked about, but theologically, why is the table so, and by the way, our RESTORE conferences, every single one, we always end with communion, which I’ve had people come up to me and say, Oh, you shouldn’t do like anything that might trigger people because they were hurt in the church and communion, that's something that’s very churchy. [00:33:46] Julie Roys: And I’m like, we have to redeem these symbols. We can’t throw them out because these symbols are there. God gave them to us because our souls need them. And we need to have this communion with one another and with Christ. I know this is a conviction of yours. It’s very deeply held, but why is the table like a non-negotiable for us as believers when we meet? [00:34:13] Skye Jethani: Let me give you two reasons, although there are more. One, is I think it is the practiced embodiment of the gospel. It is not just the verbal proclamation of the gospel, which is obviously valuable, but it’s the embodiment of the gospel. And in the sense that it’s not just a memorial to Jesus' death, which certainly it is that; my broken body, my shed blood, but in sort of an Ephesians 2 kind of way. [00:34:54] Skye Jethani: There Paul talks about how on the cross God has reconciled us to one another. He’s talking about Jew and Gentiles there. He’s broken down the wall of hostility and he has reconciled us to one another and made us one new person. And then together reconciled us to God through the cross. So It’s not just when I sit alone and take a little juice and a little bread, and I kind of think about the cross and my community with God, it’s when I am sitting side by side or standing side by side with my sisters and brothers, realizing I’m one with them because of the cross, and he has reconciled us to one another, people, maybe who I share something in common with, in an earthly way, but some whom I don’t. [00:35:31] Skye Jethani: And so when we don’t practice communion regularly, I think we can easily fall into the trap of losing the horizontal dimension of the gospel. And we make it simply vertical. It’s just me and God. And we forget, no, it’s the reconciliation between brothers and sisters happens first, Paul says, and then we’re reconciled to God, the father of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. [00:35:56] Skye Jethani: If you’re going to make an offering at the altar, and there, remember your brother has something against you, leave the offering, go be reconciled to your brother, then come and offer your gift to God. He always puts the horizontal reconciliation ahead of the vertical, and we have so lost sight of that. And we don’t think that’s essential to our gospel, but it is. [00:36:11] Skye Jethani: So the table is critically important because it is the embodiment of that full gospel, the horizontal and the vertical. And when we don’t practice that, we get really warped. And it just leads to terrible things in the church. Then the other reason, the second reason, and this gets a little bit more into that coffee bar versus communion table thing is, virtually everything in our society is designed to make us narcissistic consumers. [00:36:41] Skye Jethani: It’s all about me. It’s what I want. And when I go to a coffee bar, I don’t drink coffee. I drink tea, but when I go to a Starbucks or whatever, like there’s infinite options and I pick what I want and I’m the one in charge and I order it and I get it. And a lot of churches have that in their foyer or communion area or common area, whatever might be fine. [00:36:58] Skye Jethani: I’m not against coffee in church, but the table I’m no longer in charge. It’s Christ’s table. It’s not my table. And even if I’m officiating and I’m a pastor at the table, it’s still not my table. It’s Christ’s table. He welcomes us there. This is his body. This is his blood. This is about his kingdom and his family. [00:37:18] Skye Jethani: And it’s a reminder that I am not in charge, and I belong to something other than myself. And so those two realities of the gospel, I think are antidotes to what we get bombarded with in our culture of the privatization of our faith. It’s just me and God and the hyper narcissism of it’s what I want that matters, not what God wants. [00:37:41] Skye Jethani: For me, the practice of communion inoculates me to a degree against all of that cultural garbage and realigns me to the gospel of Christ again. So to not practice it regularly, I think is to lose one of the greatest graces that Christ has given his church. And especially in our context, we need to do that. [00:38:03] Julie Roys: I love about the table too, especially this is probably why I absolutely love liturgical worship, which is something I loved about our previous church because it was Anglican and I love the liturgy, but I love the table because it reminds us of what’s coming, like the wedding feast that we’re looking forward to. [00:38:27] Julie Roys: I think way too often especially in evangelicalism, it’s like our goal is to get people saved and then it stops. Like we forget that ?we’re saved to be part of this community that’s being redeemed and has this glorious thing that we’re anticipating. And I think most Christians forget we’re anticipating something. [00:38:48] Julie Roys: You just get the sense like, Oh, you got saved. You’ve arrived. And then, well,  you should become discipled; that’s important because as you point out, we haven’t really defined what disciple is but that’s important, but we forget. Man, we are just passing through. We’ve got this glorious, glorious feast that we’re awaiting, and it is going to be a family and it’s going to be a family affair where everyone’s gathered. [00:39:15] Julie Roys: I love that part of it. And I love that it takes us out, like you’re saying, out of our present context and reminds us who we are and where we’re going. So love that part of it. And you touched on this when you said, You were hinting at the transactional nature that we come to church with, and I hear this all the time. I’ve probably said it myself. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of this. But we look at church and we say, and if we go and we don’t feel like we were especially inspired or something, we’ll say, I didn’t get anything out of that. [00:39:54] Skye Jethani: Mm-Hmm. . [00:39:54] Julie Roys: Talk about why that’s really not the way we should be approaching church. [00:39:59] Skye Jethani: Oh, gosh, Julie, I wrote my very first book on this whole thing, which no one read. It’s called The Divine Commodity and it’s all about consumerism and the church. With a weird thread of Vincent van Gogh all the way through the book, which is why no one read it. [00:40:16] Julie Roys: That sounds very interesting though. In a dark sort of way. [00:40:19] Skye Jethani: We live and move and have our being in a consumer culture. Everything is measured by its value to me. It’s interesting. Like, there’s an economist who argues that America really transitioned into a truly consumer economy in the 1950s. And it’s the 1950s where you begin to see a massive spike in divorce rates. [00:40:43] Skye Jethani: Now, there’s a lot of factors into that. It’s not just economics, but I think it’s a factor. Because what Consumerism tells us is that the world exists to satisfy my desires. And when something doesn’t satisfy my desire, I’m justified in changing it, whether it’s a product from a shelf or a spouse that I said I was committed to. [00:41:03] Skye Jethani: So we measure everything that way. Most of us don’t even think twice about it. Of course, that’s the right way to live. Of course, that’s what the world is all about. And so we come into our church communities or even our relationship with Christ and we go, well, what have you done for me lately? And is this beneficial to me? And am I getting something from it? We don’t challenge that ethic in most of our churches. We never point it out, we never go, Hey, this might be the way economics works in our society, but it’s not the way the most important things work. This isn’t the way we should think about our children. [00:41:34] Skye Jethani: This isn’t the way we should think about our spouses. And this is not the way we should be thinking about God. And Certainly not the way to think about his church, but we do. And in a weird way, the first amendment has reinforced that idea. We have no established church in America and I’m grateful for that, but it also means there’s a free market of religion in the United States and the religious institutions that are out there are all competing for part of the market. They’re competing for customers. And in that setting, the customer’s King, you give them what you want. So it ends up reinforcing this mindset over and over and over again. I can’t just shake my fist at the culture and go big, bad consumerism. [00:42:12] Skye Jethani: But what I can shake my fist at a little bit are churches and ministers that aren’t speaking about this dynamic and helping people be formed out of it into the values of the kingdom of God. And instead we either stay silent about it or flat out reinforce it and advance it in a weird way. So yeah, things like communion, like commitment, like relationship, like service are antidotes to some of that mindset. [00:42:38] Skye Jethani: But it’s hard. And I find myself in that posture all the time as well. You can’t escape it. It’s just part of who we are as 21st century modern people. But that’s where it’s on the shoulders of church leaders and institutions to help form us and give us a vision of a different way that very few are doing. [00:42:58] Julie Roys: Similar to that is I think this idea that when we come to church, we do so, and we’ve heard churches build themselves this way. We come and experience God, and worship has become, and it’s interesting to me because worship was so huge in my development as a Christian. As I remember being in high school and I got discipled by these, Oral Roberts/Jesus People like wacky charismatics who were druggies maybe 10 years prior to meeting me. [00:43:32] Julie Roys: But they were so on fire for the Lord, and we would get together, and we would pray and worship and literally we’d be there for 3 hours, and it would seem like 10 minutes. It was just an amazing. I didn’t realize up until that point that you could have that kind of intimacy with God and that kind of communion with him. [00:43:51] Julie Roys: So worship was huge to me in my experience of God. What’s been challenging now. And even I look back, we were in a Vineyard church for a long time, and I used to love to invite people and I would see them come into the worship and they just start crying and they don’t even know why they’re crying, right? [00:44:08] Julie Roys: They’re just crying because they’re moved. But now I’m seeing so many of these worship experiences that are, they’re amazing emotional experiences and it’s making me check; like I have a check now because I see these kids raised in their hands and they’re praising the Lord. [00:44:32] Julie Roys: And then the rest of what they’re doing throughout the week has nothing to do with the Lord has nothing to do with worshiping the Lord. I see these ministries that are built on worship, like Hillsong and Bethel. And now we’re seeing just such horrible manipulation and corruption and abuse within so many of these churches. [00:44:52] Julie Roys: And so the whole experiencing God thing,  it’s hard to even parse out, like, is the music affecting me? I think if you try to parse that out, then you’re kind of killing the experience itself, right? So, you destroy it. [00:45:16] Julie Roys: But I think this idea that we have to go to church to experience God. has been baked into evangelicalism where it’s at right now. So address that and why we need to really change our focus when it comes to worship. [00:45:28] Skye Jethani: You and I were very different high school students. [00:45:31] Julie Roys: We were. You were here, I was here, right? [00:45:35] Skye Jethani: Yeah. So I was the worst kid in the youth group in high school because I was such a skeptic. I used to get dragged to these big worship events in Chicago for high schoolers in the early 90s. And I just thought these are the most manipulative and emotionally charged. I just didn’t buy it. I never bought it. And that’s just, that was my own baggage and problem. But let me say, I think the problem is not necessarily these gatherings. [00:46:02] Skye Jethani: I think they can be beautiful in many, and I’ve been a part of some that are just amazingly gorgeous times of communion with God. The problem is not the gatherings. I think the real problem is what we expect to get from them. And here’s the metaphor that I’ve written about elsewhere that I find helpful. [00:46:23] Skye Jethani: In 2nd Corinthians chapter 3, Paul references Moses on the mountaintop of Sinai when he meets with the Lord. And if you remember the story from Exodus 34, when Moses came down the mountain to meet with the people again, they all freaked out because his face was glowing, right? The radiance of God was shown on his face. [00:46:44] Skye Jethani: And in Exodus, it says that Moses put a veil over his face. So that people wouldn’t freak out anymore. Well, Paul, when he’s referencing this in 2 Corinthians 3, adds a little bit of rabbinical tradition into the story that’s not actually in Exodus, but Paul was familiar with. And he said, no, the real reason that Moses put a veil over his face is because he didn’t want the people to see that the glory was fading away and that is was only temporary. [00:47:09] Skye Jethani: And so when you piece these things together, you get a sense of what was really going on here is every time Moses would go up the mountain and meet with the Lord, he would take the veil off and he’d kind of get recharged another zap of God’s radiance. [00:47:20] Skye Jethani: And he’d come down and everyone would see, Oh, he’s been with the Lord. He’s glowing. And then he put the veil over cause it fades away. And I think that’s a little bit what we’ve gotten caught up into, is an external mountaintop kind of communion with God. Moses' experience on the mountain was real. It was genuine. It was good. It was full of God’s presence [00:47:38] Skye Jethani:. The problem that Paul’s pointing out is it always faded. It was temporary. And so you have to go back over and over and over again. And he contrasts that with the new covenant in Christ, which he said is not. about an external glory. It’s about his spirit within us, transforming us from one degree of glory to the next with ever increasing glory. So we can take the veil away. [00:47:59] Skye Jethani: And this is the core problem. I think in an awful lot of consumeristic American evangelical Christianity is essentially what we have done is rejected the new covenant in Christ in favor of the old covenant in Moses. And the reason is if we really buy the new covenant in Christ, You don’t need a 50-million-dollar mountaintop to encounter God, and you don’t need a dynamic preacher to encounter God, and you don’t need a huge worship band o genuinely encounter God. What do you need? You need to cultivate a deep abiding presence with his spirit, the kind that Jesus talks about in John 15. Abide in me and I will abide in you, just as a branch abides in its vine and bears fruit. That’s New Testament spirituality [00:48:53] Skye Jethani: But if you want a big ministry, and if you want thousands or even millions of people buying your albums and coming to your church and doing anything, then you need old testament spirituality. You need to convince people that the only place that they’re really going to have an experience of  God is on the mountain that you’ve built and that you hold the toll road to accessing. That’s old testament spirituality and it’s really lucrative .But it’s not what we’re called to in Jesus. [00:49:13] Skye Jethani: So that’s what worries me is we’re creating kind of worship junkies where they need another hit and the glory fades and they’re like, Oh, my life, I felt really transformed after going to that big event, that big conference, that big whatever. But yeah, a week later, the glory fades and you’re back to the person you always were. [00:49:29] Skye Jethani: And then you go, I guess I need to go again, or I need a bigger thing or a better church or a better speaker. Whatever. And all the while we’re ignoring what we’re called to, which is who’s teaching me how to really commune with Jesus? Who’s teaching me how to pray? Who’s teaching me how to confess my sins? Who’s teaching me how to really live in step with the spirit day in and day out so that I might truly be transformed from one degree of glory to the next? [00:49:51] Skye Jethani: Very few of our mega ministry settings are designed to do that kind of work. They’re designed to give us a show and make us feel great. And to be fair, again, sometimes those are genuine encounters with God, just like Moses was, but it always fades. That’s the problem. [00:50:09] Julie Roys: I’m thinking back to when I was at Vineyard and there was a saying that John Wimber had that I absolutely loved. He would say pretty much everything else in our experience with God is something that he does for us. Worship is the one thing that we do to him, that we give back to him. And I think rightly understood, it comes from that communion with God that you have, that then when you have the chance to verbally express that, it's very much like in a marriage relationship. [00:50:44] Julie Roys: When you have that opportunity to physically express that love to your spouse, it’s extraordinarily meaningful because why? you already have that love that you experienced one for another. And so then that Physical expression becomes so meaningful But if it were just the physical expression without the love, I think that’s where a lot of people are at really in the way that they’re relating to God, [00:51:07] Skye Jethani: Right. Yeah, if we developed a genuine communion with God throughout the week, and then we gather with our sisters and brothers on the weekend and express that, that’s wonderful. I think too many of us again, schooled as consumers don’t have that communion all week long. And then we show up on Sunday going, light me up, make me feel good, give me that charge so that I can go into my week and feel encouraged or blessed or whatever it is I’m looking for. That’s not worship [00:51:34] Julie Roys: We don’t want to disciple people on how to maintain that in their private life because then they don’t need us. And yeah, so good. Well, there’s so much more we could talk about. Before I let you go talk just briefly about leadership and you’ve touched on it somewhat, about the celebrity pastors. You also used a term that’s become somewhat of a buzzword within the church is something called servant leadership. [00:52:05] Julie Roys: I have a feeling that’s much more about the upfront and not like the shadow mission shows whether that servant leadership is actually a thing. But talk about that leader and the approach that leader should have. How a leader should serve within a body, and why maybe we should be suspicious of those who come along and say, they’re visionary leaders and they’re going to impart their vision to us, for the church. And I know I just gave you a big one, didn’t I? [00:52:37] Skye Jethani: It is a big one. And there’s so many landmines in this. I generally don’t like using the language of servant leader because especially again, in American evangelical culture, the assumptions behind it are misunderstood. So let me unpack that a little bit. [00:52:57] Skye Jethani: Usually, when we think of servant leader, we think of a person with authority or power who nonetheless does humble acts of service, right? So it’s the pastor who’s out there shoveling the snow o ,the church leader, who’s still taking out the garbage and you go, gee, look at,  pastor Steve, isn’t he humble? And he’s a servant leader and he’s doing that thing. Just like Jesus washed the disciples feet. In my view it’s great. I’m glad a pastor does that. I certainly wouldn’t want to disparage it, but I don’t think that’s really what servant leadership means. In John 13, that scene where Jesus washes the disciples feet, what he’s really doing there is not only humiliating himself, he’s humiliating his disciples. They had been arguing about who’s the greatest. And then Jesus strips naked and starts washing their feet, taking this grotesquely humiliating role. And he gets to Peter and Peter’s like, there’s no way you’re washing my feet. And he says, if you don’t let me wash your feet, you can have no place with me. [00:54:03] Skye Jethani: Which is like, wow, that’s a pretty strong statement. What’s going on there? In that culture the relationship between a rabbi and a disciple was well established, and a disciple’s identity was completely defined by who their rabbi was. So when Peter and John and James and the others, when they left their fishing boats and their toll booths and all the other things they were doing to become a follower of Rabbi Jesus, Peter especially was thinking, this is a pretty good deal, because I’m leaving a meager fishing business to become the disciple of the most powerful guy I’ve ever seen, who’s probably going to take over the world. [00:54:41] Skye Jethani: And that’s why, am I going to get to sit at your right on your left? Where am I going to get, like, this was a great deal. Cause my rabbi is like bigger than Moses. And then he sees his rabbi do the most humiliating and embarrassing task imaginable. And so what Jesus is saying to Peter is, If you think this is humiliating to me, it’s even more humiliating for you, Peter, because I’m your rabbi, which means you’re even lower than me. [00:55:05] Skye Jethani: And then at the end of the whole scene, he says, I, your teacher and rabbi have done this. You should do likewise. I think the message he’s really saying there is stop caring what others think about you. And love in a self-sacrificial way, take up your cross, die to yourself and follow me. [00:55:37] Skye Jethani: So when I then look at what does that mean in 21st century American church world, nobody is going to look at a pastor shoveling snow or taking out garbage and go, Oh my gosh, what a loser. Most church worlds go, Oh, that’s great. He’s doing something noble and kind and helping out and everything. No one’s going to think he’s a humiliated nothing because of that. So what I’m looking for is a pastor who has given up on their own reputation, who’s doesn’t care how many followers they have on Twitter, who’s not worried about, are they going to have a bestselling book? [00:56:00] Skye Jethani: Isn’t counting how many people showed up every Sunday because that’s a stroke to their ego. It’s where they have truly died to themselves. They know who they are and where they’re going, like Jesus did at the beginning of John 13. They know they belong to God, and they know they’ve been called by him, and they’re set free then to love sacrificially, without caring about their own reputation and ego. So that's, I think, a better definition of a servant leader, the person whose ego is not driving their ministry. That’s hard to spot without real relational connection and knowing somebody well. [00:56:44] Skye Jethani:  I’m all for that kind of serpent leader and it’s rare. I’ve known men and women like that. Sometimes they have an ecclesiastical title. Sometimes they don’t. But they are the salt and light in the church today. And I pray that God will bring us more of them because we desperately need them in the American church. [00:57:02] Julie Roys: I love that. That’s so good, Skye. Thank you. Well, we have to wrap this because I’ve got my grandson’s first soccer game coming up and I’ve got to boot out of here to go see that. [00:57:15] Skye Jethani: I actually have a soccer game tonight too for my high school daughter. So I’ve got to do that too. [00:57:19] Julie Roys: But this has been really good and really rich. I so appreciate this book that you’ve written. Like we said, we’re offering that to anybody who gives a gift to The Roy’s Report this month. Just really grateful for you, Skye. And I think people, when they hear this, they’re like, wow, that guy’s in your church. And we have like so many people who are deep thinkers like this in our church. And it’s been an incredible gift. And it’s been an incredible thing to iron sharpening iron, which we’ve had that opportunity. So just feel blessed to have you as my brother and just appreciate this time we spent. [00:57:57] Skye Jethani: And thankful for all the good work you and your team at The Roy’s Report are doing in helping people navigate a really difficult season in the church and hopefully find healing and deeper communion with God and one another. It’s valuable, valuable work. I’m grateful to have a small little role in this podcast now as a part of it. [00:58:15] Julie Roys: And you’re going to have to watch this podcast now. It’ll be your first. [00:58:18] Skye Jethani: Yes, I probably will. [00:58:20] Julie Roys: Well, blessings to you. And thanks so much. [00:58:22] Skye Jethani: Thanks, Julie. [00:58:23] Julie Roys: And thanks so much for listening to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And just a reminder, we’re giving away Skye’s book, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? to anyone who gives a gift of 25 or more to The Roy’s Report this month. As I often say, we don’t have advertisers or big donors at The Roy’s Report. We simply have you. The people who care about reporting the truth and restoring the church. So if you’re passionate about our mission, please go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATED. Also, just a q

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/XKwF1N--a00For more than two decades, Patrick and Mary DeMuth faithfully served as lay leaders at Lakepointe Church, a megachurch in the Dallas/Fort Worth area pastored by Josh Howerton. But as concerns about Howerton grew, Patrick and Mary found they could no longer stay in good conscience. And now, they're dealing with the anger and grief so many so-called “church refugees” feel. In this edition of The Roys Report (TRR), Mary DeMuth joins host Julie Roys to talk about navigating church bewilderment. This is a condition more and more Christians are experiencing today, as scandal and corruption are increasingly seeping into the church. And if you caught the previous TRR podcast with Amanda Cunningham, you heard about many of the concerning issues at Lakepointe Church. This is the church where Mary and Patrick served for 23 years. How do you deal with righteous anger? How do you navigate the grief? How much is okay to say, and what is gossip? How do you find another church home when you're dealing with feelings of betrayal and lack of trust? How do you avoid getting in the same situation again? These are crucial questions, which Mary—an internationally known author and a repeat speaker at our Restore Conference—admits she is wrestling with. And, as is so characteristic of Mary, she engages these questions with grace, wisdom, and a passion for truth and justice. Sadly, many churches have created a culture where it's not okay to talk about leaving a toxic church. But as Mary explains in this podcast, the church won't get better until we talk about it. Believers must begin to evaluate and process the toxicity in churches—and how we can truly become the Body of Christ. Mary has recently developed a Church Hurt Checklist to help people understand their situation and begin to process and articulate it. Download it free at marydemuth.com/churchhurt Guests Mary DeMuth Mary DeMuth is an international speaker, podcaster, and author of over 40 books, fiction and nonfiction, including The Most Misunderstood Women of the Bible and We Too: How the Church Can Respond Redemptively to the Sexual Abuse Crisis. Mary lives in Texas with her husband of 30+ years and is mom to three adult children. Learn more at MaryDeMuth.com. Show Transcript Julie Roys: For more than two decades, Patrick and Mary DeMuth faithfully served as leaders at a megachurch in the Dallas Fort Worth area. But as concerns about the current pastor grew, they found they could no longer stay in good conscience. And now they’re dealing with the anger and grief so many so-called church refugees feel. Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And today, Mary DeMuth joins me to talk about navigating church bewilderment. Sadly, this is an issue many Christians are dealing with, as abuse, scandal, and corruption increasingly seem to be seeping into the church. Julie Roys: And if you caught our last podcast with Amanda Cunningham, you heard about many of the concerning issues at Lake Point Church in the Dallas Fort Worth area, where Josh Howerton is Pastor. This is the church where Mary and Patrick served for 23 years. And if you missed our prior podcast, it was a real eye-opener and I encourage you to go back and listen to that. Julie Roys: Today’s podcast is a sequel to my podcast with Amanda, but rather than exposing the issues at Lake Point today, Mary is going to be discussing the aftermath of leaving. How do you deal with righteous anger? How do you navigate the grief? How do you know how much is okay to say? And what is gossip? And how do you find another church home when you’re dealing with feelings of betrayal and lack of trust? How do you avoid getting in the same situation again? Julie Roys: These are crucial questions and ones that I know many of you are dealing with today. And so I’m so looking forward to diving into this topic with Mary DeMuth. But first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Julie Roys: Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Julie Roys: Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. Julie Roys: And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable, rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and quality. That's because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys: Again, joining me is Christian author and podcaster, Mary DeMuth, and many of Mary from her excellent books like We Too: Discussing the Sexual Abuse Crisis in the Church, and also her memoir, Thin Places. Mary also was a guest speaker at our last Restore Conference in 2022, and she’ll be speaking again at our Restore Conference in Phoenix in February in 2025. So we’re super looking forward to that. Julie Roys: But she joins me now to talk about something that’s been a very painful process for both her and Patrick, and that is leaving her church of 23 years, Lake Point Church there in the Dallas Fort Worth area. So Mary, Thank you so much for being willing to talk about what I know has been a really difficult journey. Mary DeMuth: Thanks. I certainly prayed about this conversation and what I’ve noticed in this space is that a lot of people in the middle of it. are not articulating how they’re feeling because there’s this general pressure from churches that you leave that you aren’t supposed to say anything. And I think there’s a difference between, and we’ll talk about this, I’m sure, throughout this episode, but there’s a difference between leaving quietly and running around gossiping about things. Certainly, those are two different things. Mary DeMuth: But I think what we’ve done is we’ve created a culture of silence; you can’t talk about it and literally we won’t get better unless we do talk about it. So that’s one reason why I am having this conversation today, because this is not a completed story. This is a messy story. I’m in the middle of it. Mary DeMuth: I am heartbroken, and I don’t have all the answers. But I wanted to give word to those of you that may be in that same space, that may be hurting and don’t have words to say about it. And maybe I can articulate some of those things for you. Julie Roys: And I so appreciate that. I find that people often are willing to talk about experiences years after the fact, when they’ve worked it all out and they can tie it all up in a neat bow and we can all go, Oh, that’s so nice. And here’s three ways that you can apply this message. But I knew you were going through a really painful thing that it was messy. You’ve been tweeting about it, or I should say posting on X. Julie Roys: You’ve been very open and honest with your pain. And I really appreciate that. And I love the topic. You actually gave me the title for this, about navigating church bewilderment. And I love that word bewilderment because I feel like it really captures the confusion, the real disillusionment, and then the grief and the pain. Julie Roys: All of these things bound up in one. And so we’re going to get to all that and unpack all of that. But I think to understand the depth of it for you and for Patrick, first I have to understand how deeply vested you were in this church. So talk about what this church has meant to you over more than two decades and the roles that you played in it and the community that you had. Mary DeMuth: Yeah, we’ve been there for 23 years, and we immediately started serving the moment we landed there. And we also were the first non-IMB, it was an SBC church at the time, and we were the first non-IMB missionaries to be sent out from Lake Point. Julie Roys: Define IMB for those who . Mary DeMuth: Yes. International mission board. So typically SBC churches send, they don’t really send their own missionaries. They sponsor IMB because all the money comes out of the SBC into this fund for the International Mission Board. We didn’t want to do that. We wanted to be actually supported because we believed that people who paid prayed. And so we were not IMB, but Lake Point sent us out. So we were church planters in the South of France for a couple of years. And honestly the leadership there at our church, even though we weren’t going through our church, they were the ones that helped us through a really untenable situation. And our loyalty to that church was because they put us back together when we got back from the field.. Mary DeMuth: So much pouring in and so much love. And so we have been a life group leader for 20 of the 23 years. The only three years we weren’t was when we were in France, planting a church. And then I have run a couple of conferences, interestingly enough, called the Re-story Conference, which was very similar sounding to the Restore Conference. Mary DeMuth: And I also recorded a Life Way study at Lake Point for an audience. And then my husband was an elder at the church for five years. And so we have led mission teams all over the world for Lake Point. We have definitely been in the upper levels of volunteer leadership all these years and have enjoyed a lot of conviviality and fellowship. Mary DeMuth: And I never never. I always bragged about my church. It never crossed my mind that there would be a day that I wasn’t at that church anymore. And so as of December of 2023, we are away from there and making our way into a new space. Julie Roys: And I’ve talked about this on this podcast, but we’re in a house church with, some of the folks in our house church were at their previous church for over 30 years, and the amount of pain and loss and especially when you’re, when you’re our age, early 40s. Julie Roys: That’s it. It’s early 40s. No, when you’re a little bit older and later in life and to be at this point where you’re starting over is not at all where you expected to be, and it’s pretty tough to be there. You retain some of the friendships, but everything’s changed. And it just makes for a really really difficult road that you never planned to be on. Julie Roys: Your church; and this is a lot of the reason behind you leaving, changed dramatically in the last 5 years. Stephen Stroop was your previous pastor. And in 2019, I believe Josh Howerton came in. Your husband actually was on the elder board that approved him, right? Mary DeMuth: Yes. Yes. And we’ve had to work through that as you can imagine, because that’s painful to think about. And just to expand a little bit about the why is the basic reasons why we left. There’s a lot of things. As an author, as a published author and as a speaker, the plagiarism was just grating on me and I couldn’t stomach it, but that wasn’t the main reason. Mary DeMuth: Although it’s still very problematic to me. What’s more problematic is that they don’t think it’s a big deal and they don’t see it as sin, and I just disagree. But the two things that we, the two main things that caused us to walk away, one was we were told by leadership, by upper-level leadership, that there was no place for us to serve. Mary DeMuth: And that was really, that was about a year ago. And so it took us about a year to make that decision. Like we were still serving in our life group, but there were things that God has put in us as church planters. And as me, as an author and an advocate that we have a lot that we would love to be able to offer, and to have that cut off when we feel like we’re in the prime of service right now. We weren’t asking to be paid. This is all volunteer, but we were told we couldn’t. Mary DeMuth: And then the second thing that was kind of the straw was all of the crude words and the misogynistic statements that started around 2022 almost every sermon. And as an advocate for sexual abuse victims and as an advocate for women, I could no longer be associated with that church because it just didn’t, I just couldn’t be associated with it. Mary DeMuth: I have stood in front of the Southern Baptist Convention, and I have spoken and advocated, and I have been chewed up and spit out for it. And if I’m going to a church that is marginalizing women, it does not make sense. And so no place for us to serve, big, huge problem. And then I just couldn’t be connected with a church that had that kind of reputation. Julie Roys: Those reasons are huge. and make an awful lot of sense. The plagiarism as you said, the crude remarks, the misogynistic remarks. And for a lot of folks, if you’re like, what are they talking about? I do encourage you to go back and listen to our last podcast with Amanda Cunningham, where we went over a lot of these things that Mary’s talking about that have happened in her church. Julie Roys: I’m sure there’s people listening, and they’re like, okay, that sounds really, really awful. But how do you know when you hit that tipping point? Because I remember talking to you a couple of years ago and me going, Hey, is this really your pastor? I’m seeing some stuff. How is this your pastor? And you’re like we’re serving, and we love our life group. I get it. I totally, totally get it. But how did you and Patrick, how did you get to the point where you’re like, this is the tipping point, no more? Mary DeMuth: We decided we went into this together, so we decided that we both had to have the same decision. We weren’t going to have one of us leave and one not leave. We were going to do this together. So that took a year of a lot of conversations. And we saw those red flags when you saw them. So we’ve seen them, but as you mentioned, the model of Lake Point used to be, it seems to be shifting now, but it used to be church within a church. And so your life group was really basically what you’re doing, Julie. It’s a small gathering of people where there is someone who teaches, and there’s someone who’s the missions coordinator. And there’s someone who, it’s that’s how, like your church is that group. And so we felt a deep, strong connection to our group. And we felt like we were the pastors of that church within a church. Mary DeMuth: The model has shifted. And I don’t know, it has never been articulated publicly, but it seems from the exterior looking in that it’s more becoming a franchise model, which is where you create this mother church, and it can be duplicated like MacDonald’s in any context. Therefore they may not have that idea that it is church within a church anymore. It has to be something replicatable on all other campuses. And so we began to see this shifting of, this is no longer church within a church, which is really what kept us there. We had people we were serving. And then honestly, I just couldn’t stomach sermons anymore. I couldn’t walk into that building anymore. Mary DeMuth: And as everything became a spectacle the longer we were there, it was all about Sunday morning and the spectacle that it had become like a circus, and I could not find Jesus there. And I would sit in the audience. We had beautifully. articulated and performed auto-tuned worship. It was beautiful. It sounded amazing. There was a lot of rah-rah-rah. There was a lot of energy and it felt like Ichabod to me, like to me as a Christ follower, a mature Christ follower of many years, I couldn’t feel the presence of the Lord anymore. And for me, that’s what is the point of going to a church, if that has happened to you? Mary DeMuth: I’m not saying that other people aren’t experiencing the Lord there. I’m not saying that other people aren’t becoming Christians there. They are. And that’s probably the most problematic part of this whole thing is that they are easily able to point to numbers that are flowing in through the front door, ignoring all of us that have left out the back door. Mary DeMuth: And because it is successful, therefore they can just call me names and malign me or people like Amanda and others, and they can dismiss us because look what God is doing. Julie Roys: And Amanda talked about that same thing about the church within a church and even how each of the churches had different women’s ministries. Julie Roys: And I think about it, it was so personal because people are different and they all had different campuses, have different makeup, they have different cultures and now, this franchise model where you go in, you order a Big Mac, and you get a Big Mac. That’s what you’re used to, right? Julie Roys: But is it? And probably our conversation today, we probably don’t have enough time to really delve into this, but this is something I have been thinking more and more about, is it even church if you have a place where it, maybe a Christian organization and maybe a Christian organization that blesses a lot of people but is it a church where you say to members of the body, we don’t need you, we don’t need your gift, and you can’t serve here? If we have a pastor who doesn’t even know people’s names, if we don’t have that kind of shepherding, is it even a church anymore? Mary DeMuth: I’ll back up before I answer that in that I’ve, been overseas and, anyone that’s been overseas and gone to a McDonald’s overseas knows they have different categories. So even franchises like McDonald’s in France has McWine, right? Or McVine. McDonald’s even understands contextualizing the hamburger to the person, and to the people. So that’s an odd thing for me that there would be this idea that you can just, this is the model and we’re superimposing it on all sorts of different economic people and people in different cultures, and we’re just gonna superimpose it there, which seems super weird to me. Mary DeMuth:  On the, is this a church? We have to just go back to simplicity, which is, are we celebrating the Lord’s Supper? Are there sacraments there? Is the word of God being delivered and is it? Mary DeMuth: And then deeper than that, are  disciples being made? because there’s a big, huge difference between converts who hear something. And I think about the parable of the soils, they hear it, they receive it with joy, they have no root and then they walk away. We’re not teaching a theology of suffering in most of these bigger churches for sure. Mary DeMuth: But I think we need to remember that a church is supposed to be a place of koinonia, a place of fellowship, a place where we are iron sharpening iron, and a place of discipleship where people are not just converted, but they are just doing the slow work of people pouring into each other’s lives. That’s discipleship. That’s not a top-down model. That’s not pastor to congregation. That’s person to person. And when a church gets so big for its britches these things can fall through the cracks. Mary DeMuth: Now, Lake Point had done a very good job of doing that discipleship piece through their vehicle of a life group. But as things have shifted, we’re seeing a lot less of that. And again, I haven’t been there for six months, so they could be doing it. I don’t know, but just from my perspective today that’s something that’s been difficult to see. Julie Roys: You alluded to this earlier, this idea of leaving well. It’s hard to leave well and even to define what leaving well is. I will say there was one church that my husband and I ended up leaving and it was over a theological disagreement that we just felt we couldn’t bend on. And at the same time, we felt really pulled to another church. They actually had us come up and explain why we were leaving and gathered around us and prayed for us. Julie Roys: That was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen where it was just like, differences and God makes calling you here. We want to bless you as you go. And you’ve met a lot to this church and we mean a lot to each other and let’s just bless each other. It was so beautiful, and I don’t know why this can’t happen more. But usually it’s just a lot of pain and a lot of heartache And when you talk about leaving well, what it usually means to a lot of people, and I’ve heard even Christian leaders talk about this. When you leave well, you just keep your stuff to yourself. Julie Roys: The issues that you had, you suck them under, and you don’t speak about it. And honestly, I think that’s part of our problem in the church is that we don’t talk about our problems. And so we wait till they become a major scandal or crisis. And then they really blow up. And we allow abusive pastors just kind of reign; to continue doing what they’re doing. Julie Roys: So talk about this concept of leaving well. Obviously, you’ve chosen to speak rather boldly about what happened there. I think really from a heart of love and concern for both the church and the people there, not just to vent how you’re feeling. But talk about that and how you’ve come to the decision you have about that. Mary DeMuth: First, I’ll say there’s been kind of  an unholy silence. We were pretty high up and we have not been followed up with, and the very few times we were invited into those spaces, it was difficult. So there is that. I would encourage church leaders to do what your former church did, because I think there’s a lot to be learned. Mary DeMuth: I also need to say that we didn’t leave from a position of canceling and of immaturity. There’s one thing if you’re like a church hopper and you’re like, just running around with a consumeristic mindset like, what do I get in this for me? A lot of people that are leaving churches are being accused of being that. But the ones that I know that have left this church are mature, deep believers in Christ who are seeing so many red flags. Mary DeMuth: And the reason I articulated it was because I was running into people who were brokenhearted and didn’t have words for it. And somehow through the grace of God and through his power and his ability, I was able to say the things that people were feeling so that they would no longer feel alone. I would rather have been silent if the Lord hadn’t put his hand on me. Mary DeMuth: I would rather grieve this alone and quietly, but I have seen a lot of really good conversation and ministry happen because of this. I’m not out to harm the reputation of the church. I will never tell someone to leave a church unless they’re being abused, obviously, that’s their own decision. Mary DeMuth: They have the autonomy to make that decision between them and God. But I do want to be a listening ear and an empath for those who are bewildered at the church they’re going to that no longer looks like the church they used to go to. Julie Roys: So tell me what is gossip because this is what is, this is the word, I’ve gotten called this myriads and myriads of times. But what is gossip? And clearly you don’t believe this falls into that category. Why? Mary DeMuth: It’s not gossip to share your emotions about how you’re reacting to an abuse. That is actually being a lot like Paul. And if you look at the letters throughout the epistles in particular, you see Paul saying things about churches. Mary DeMuth: And so if we’re going to talk about gossip, we’d have to call him a gossip because he was constantly calling out, Hey, listen, those Judaizers, they don’t really have it right. Oh, listen, this Gnosticism isn’t good. And that guy’s having sex with his mother-in-law. These kinds of things are, he’s very clear. Mary DeMuth: These are not untrue things he’s saying. These are actually true statements. And underneath all of that is a desire for the church to be the body of Christ and to be holy. It’s not slander because it’s telling the truth. And it’s always with a desire to see God do good work in the local church. And if she is straying, if you love her, you will say something about it. Mary DeMuth: Now there’s a manner in which you can do that. You can be really caustic. You can speak the truth without love, but we are called to speak the truth with love. And I believe that we have conflagrated speaking the truth in love with gossip, and those are two different things. Gossip intends to harm the reputation of another or of an entity; telling the truth in love tries to help that institution have a mirror and see what’s going on. Julie Roys: The motive is really important, although I always get frustrated when people try to judge other people’s motives because the truth is, you don’t know somebody else’s heart. And that’s something I never do. I’ll talk about actions, but I don’t know someone’s heart. Only God knows the heart. But I know that’s something I constantly check myself about is my desire for repentance? is my desire to see these leaders repent? 100 percent, and I know you well enough to know that you would be absolutely thrilled and would extend grace if the leaders who have hurt you so deeply would repent of their sin and would change their ways. I know that and I’m sure you pray for that, that you and Patrick are praying right now for that. Am I right? Mary DeMuth: Absolutely. That is  underneath all of this, is just a desire to see the local church healthy and to see her lift up the name of Jesus. And we also just want to again put up a mirror of is this representing the kingdom of God or is this representing something else? And that’s what we were coming to find. Patrick and I both were. The kingdom’s upside down. It’s counterintuitive. It’s the least is the most. And the most is the least. It’s not about building platforms. It’s not about being the winner. It’s not about Christian nationalism. It’s none of these. I don’t even like those two words together. Mary DeMuth: It’s not about power. Jesus willingly laid down his power and he considered equality with God, not something to be grasped. He made himself nothing. And when I see a lot of these big churches and not all of them, but a lot of them where it is very male leader centric celebrity driven. And really about, we want to be the coolest people with the biggest numbers. Mary DeMuth: I don’t get it. They’ll point to Acts chapter two. They’ll talk about how many were added to the kingdom on that day. They’ll call that a mega church. It was not a mega church. People were still meeting in homes. So we just have to be careful. I’m not against mega churches. I actually think that there’s a place for them. Mary DeMuth: Over the years, they we have had the benefit of a megachurch that can go into a community and say, oh, you need a church building, here you go. Like they can do some things that a littler church can’t do. So I’m not against the megachurch, but there is something fallible in the model, the consumeristic model, that is causing all of this anguish. Julie Roys: And I’d say the leadership model. Because we have imported a leadership model that’s of the world and done the exact opposite of what Jesus said, don’t be like the Gentiles who lorded over them, but instead, whoever wants to be first should be last, whoever wants to be greatest should be least. Julie Roys: It is the upside-down kingdom, and we’ve forgotten that. We’ve become just like the world, and we count our success the same way as the world. And we’ve seen this going, it’s been going on a very long time, and I think the megachurches get a lot of the criticism because they’ve. been kind of doing it in spades in an awful lot of them and then exporting these values to all the smaller churches who are wannabes, right? Julie Roys: So you even have smaller churches that are trying to do the exact same thing and they think it’s right because it’s successful very much in the American model of success, which is bigger and better. Before we go forward, there is something I do want to ask you, though, and I would be remiss if I didn’t. What was it about what you and Patrick that you were doing that they didn’t want you serving? Mary DeMuth: I don’t know. They just didn’t want us. That’s what’s been hard is, it’s a speculative, I just don’t know. And I’m willing to be talked to about those things, of course. Like if they feel like something that we’re not godly enough or we’re, or I’m too public or whatever it is, I don’t know. Mary DeMuth: But I do know this, I do know this. When we were told this, what we learned was that they had been morphing from a church that had a lot of lay leaders to a higher control situation where only people who are employed by the church could be in charge of ministries. And so, you can control that. If you can control someone's salary, you can control the whole thing. Mary DeMuth: And so we were just told there is no place for you because we’re not on staff. So that’s probably my guess at a reason is that we were not controllable. And the statement made to us is I’ve got 30 other people just like you that are well trained and that have gone, my husband went to seminary, and all that, but will never use them. We will never use them. And basically, you just need to get over it. You will never be used. Julie Roys:  What a waste of resources. Unbelievable. The kingdom is not so well resourced that we don’t need every single person; that God didn’t give gifts every single one of them to be used. Julie Roys: But I will say, I’ve seen this happen before. And the beautiful thing is, people get dispersed, people like yourself and like Patrick, too often churches that are very needy very welcoming. Like Oh, thank God. It’s like Christmas come early, come to Moots, come to our church. And I’m sure you’re experiencing that because I can’t imagine not wanting you and Patrick at my church. It’s just shocking to me. But yeah, that is a benefit of it. It’s the church in Jerusalem getting persecuted. Then they went to the ends of the earth, and we can do that. Julie Roys: One of the things that I’ve seen be a silver lining, if you can call it that, in these sorts of situations is you’re a church refugee, but there’s a lot of other ones out there, too. And there can be a great deal of deep fellowship. And, in many ways, that’s what RESTORE is. It’s a gathering of a lot of not just refugees, a lot of helpers and pastors and people who are allies who just want to know more. But. There’s an awful lot of us there that have been hurt by the church, and there’s just this beautiful, sweet fellowship. Julie Roys: And my understanding is, and Amanda alluded to it in our last podcast, that you guys have served as pastors to these refugees. Would you talk about that sweet group that you were able to love on and pastor through this and just help them? Mary DeMuth: Yeah, we definitely were praying, and we just kept coming upon people. And in particular, people who had been employed but had been harshly fired in very traumatic ways. And we just felt so deeply. I mean for us, it’s sad and we were highly involved and it’s sad, but it wasn’t our job. And so we just had this empathy for those folks. And so we gathered as much as we knew, we put the word out quietly. Mary DeMuth: We gathered people for several weeks and met with them. And these were people that some were still there, and some were not, and some were walking away from Jesus. It was just the whole gamut of a wide variety of people in a lot of pain. And what we wanted to do was just to help them know our first session was called, You are not crazy. We just wanted them to know. that what they had seen and experienced was real and validated by the rest of us. And then we’ve just been walking through Chuck DeGroat's information about narcissism in the church and narcissistic church systems. And then talking about what is a safe person and what is a safe system. And then praying and crying and grieving and giving people the space that they are not allowed to have to get out all this junk that’s inside of us because it’s been so, so painful. Julie Roys: And I want to get to the safe system and the safe person, because I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening who would like that information as well. Julie Roys: But let’s talk about the feelings first, because when this happens, there is. Again, we talked about bewilderment. There’s just this mix of negative emotions that you don’t know what to do with a lot of times. One is anger and anger in the church has been one of these emotions that we just don’t deal with very well. And I’ve said this numerous times, but this is one that we’ll get. We’ll get thrown back in my face and people say, you sound like you’re angry and I’m like, darn I’m angry. Why aren’t you angry? Why wouldn’t we be angry when these awful things are happening in the church? And yet again, as a Christian, we feel guilty when we’re angry. So how have you dealt with your own anger, and helped others who are dealing with similar anger? Mary DeMuth: The first thing that we did was we process outside of the circle of the church because we needed to know if we were going crazy. Is this normal? Are these things that we’re saying? Is it a big deal? Or are we just being babies? We definitely did that. And then it’s been the prayer of let this anger fuel something beautiful, because I do believe that great movements of God happen because there’s injustice and we are angry at the injustice. Mary DeMuth: I often joke that I write a book when I’m angry, so I must be a pretty angry person at book 52. There’s injustice in this world and our God is righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne. When we do the work of making note of people who are being hurt and oppressed and harmed, we are doing the Lord’s work. And so that anger can be a fuel to doing positive things Mary DeMuth:. Now, I also just want to say, it’s okay to be angry. I’m angry and I have been angry and I’m processing that with friends and I’m processing it with my husband and with the Lord. Rightfully so, because I see so many people, to use Mark Driscoll’s frustrating phraseology, the people behind the bus. I’m meeting so many people behind the bus that are getting the bus is backing up over the people. Because not only cause when if you say anything, if you dare to say anything, you will get run over again and again, you will be accused of all sorts of things when really your desire is to see people set free and to open the eyes of people that are being harmed so that they no longer have to be in that system anymore. Julie Roys: And what a great deal of fear these leaders must feel. to behave that way that you have to annihilate people who say anything negative. I’ve gotten quite comfortable with people saying negative things. I just want to make sure if there’s truth in it, that I take it to heart. It’s okay, but in the end of the day, you’ve got to be okay with who you are before your Lord. And those closest to you who will tell you the truth when you’re veering off. That desire to control that desire that you have to shut down negative communication. I can’t imagine living in that much fear that you constantly are doing that. And yet that’s what we see. Julie Roys: And that whole thing about feeling like you’re crazy. So much of that’s because you’ve been told you’re crazy. You’ve been told that because that’s the gaslighting that happens when you say there’s a problem. No, there is no problem. You’re the problem. Mary DeMuth: It’s back to the emperor with no clothes. We all see the naked emperor and only a little kid says he’s not wearing any clothes. And we’re like Oh, yeah, but there’s this like kind of delusional thing or czarist Russia, the Potemkin village. If you know what that is, it was a village that was just set up like a movie set so that when the czar went by he could see that this Potemkin’s village was actually a really cool place, but you open the door, you walk through, it’s just mud and dirt on the other side and some horses grazing in a field. Church is not a Potemkin village. It should never be. It should not be a facade that we are trying to hold up by shaming people who say negative things. The church is a living, breathing organization. It is the body of Christ. Mary DeMuth: God does not need to be defended. He can do just fine by himself. And this fear that you talk about is very real because it’s about human empire. Whenever we build our Roman empire on our cult of personality and our particular views about things and not on the word of God and not on studying the word of God, then we will be threatened by anyone who says anything negative because that will eat away at the foundation of our FACO empire. Julie Roys: Very well said. That is very well said. Let’s talk about grief. And I was reminded of the Kubler Ross Stages of grief. And let me see. Those are denial, which is often where we start, right? When things go wrong, anger, the bargaining we can work this out somehow, right? Depression and sink into that deep depression. This is just so sad. And then there’s acceptance, which is that last one. And it’s not like these are completely linear because what I found is you go through, oh, I’ve worked through to acceptance. No, I haven’t. I’m back at anger again. Julie Roys: Something will happen. it'll put you right back there. So it’s not completely linear, but how have you moved toward acceptance? What does acceptance look like? And maybe that’s a long way off but talk about where you’re at in that whole process. Mary DeMuth: I think a lot of people are in this space. There’s a lot of loyal people and that’s where the bargaining comes in. And a lot of the people I’ve talked to are like, yeah, I never go to that church anymore, like to the services, but I’m here because of my small group and they’re my church. There’s this, that we were in that space for a really long time. We can make this work. This is our church, not that other part is not the church, but it’s all together. Mary DeMuth: So once we got to the decision and made the decision, then the depression set in for sure. And I think I’m still there working my way through it of thinking that I was going to be there the rest of my life. As a person who grew up in a really difficult home and met Jesus at 15 years old, the church became my family. My family was not my family. And the church was the one place where I could go to be loved, to be healed, to be worked, just to work through my salvation with fear and trembling. And so, to walk away from something that you’ve been at the most we’ve ever been at a church is 23. This is the longest we’ve ever been somewhere to walk away from. It felt like I lost my limb. I lost my family, my father’s in the faith, my mother’s in the faith, my aunts, and my uncles in the faith. And then to be villainized for just having eyes to see what the heck is going on, has been devastating, devastating. So I’m still in the grief phase and I don’t cry much about it because I’ve sometimes just shoved it way down deep because I did not ever expect that I was going to have to leave a place I loved so much. Julie Roys: There’s a, I think it’s a short story and I should know the name of it, but it’s about someone, a man who goes to a cemetery and he sees a woman just weeping and weeping, and he’s there to visit his partner who had died. I don’t think he had actually married her. But he realizes in that moment that the person who’s grieving, who’s crying and just sobbing is the richer person. Because they had loved deeply and he had never loved that deeply. And I’ve thought about that, I lost my mother over 20 years ago and she was so special and I never like, I hear some people talk about their mothers, and how difficult or what I never felt that way. My mother was just a joy, but it was so hard to lose her, but it was hard because I loved her so much. Julie Roys: And I think, I’m so grateful for you that you did have that church experience where you were loved so deeply, where you loved deeply, and I’ve got to believe that God will provide that family again. It will be different. And I know I just feel so blessed by our church family that we found in this wasteland or out of the wasteland. Julie Roys: But it’s been really, really special because I don’t have to explain anything to these people. They understand the world I work in. They understand. It’s just, it’s really been a gift. And I think it’s been a gift too. And I know you have adult children. I’m glad I had these adult children because they’re a blessing in ways that they couldn’t be and a support in ways that they couldn’t be when they were younger, when we had to be everything to them. Julie Roys: And I’m glad I’m not dealing with, and I know a lot of people are,  is what do we do for our kids now? And then there’s that pressure to find something for your children right away. And that makes it really hard. But as believers, we are taught, Hebrews 10:25, let us not give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing, but all the more as the day of the Lord approaches, let us encourage each other and all the more as the day approaches. I have found sometimes that can be used as a club against people who are just grieving, and they’re dealing with a great deal of betrayal trauma at this point. Julie Roys: And now we’re going to hit them over the head and say, you better be in church on Sunday. When they walk into a church and it just triggers, it’s a trigger for them. I believe in fellowship. I believe in the church. I love the church, but I am concerned about the process of helping people reengage after they’ve been wounded so profoundly. Julie Roys: So speak to this process of finding a new church home, or even having the freedom for a period of time to say, I don’t know. I don’t know that I can do that right now. Obviously, there is a danger if we’re out of fellowship for too long. But speak to that person who right now is outside of fellowship and really afraid to reengage with it. Mary DeMuth: Yeah. First, you’re super normal. And if you’ve been wounded in a terrible community, the stakes are pretty high, when you walk in, especially if you’re triggered or traumatized by walking into a building. I don’t know that I could walk into a big church right now. Like I just don’t think I could, I think I would have a hard time with that. Mary DeMuth: So for us, how we went about it and everyone’s going to be different, we did want to land somewhere because we just feel like we’re in that stage of, we want to serve the church. And so for our little parameters, and I think it’ll be different for every person. Ours was, it needs to be local. And we’re hoping that there will be people there already that we’re friends with. Mary DeMuth: And since we’re in a little town, right? So there’s, 1 billion churches and little towns in Texas, right? So we had plenty to choose from so many, and we didn’t even get to all of them, but that was our parameter in choosing a home. In fact, we just officially joined a church yesterday. So it did take some time to get to that place. But I just want to let you know that it’s normal to be scared, to be triggered, to be in pain. Mary DeMuth: Don’t let it stay there. You are wounded in a negative community and the Lord is very frustrating and he asks you to be healed in good community. That’s hard. But a relational wound requires a relational cure, and that’s one reason why Patrick and I have been pouring into people who are hurt because we want to be that safer relationship for people to be falling apart or hurting or ask really blunt questions and be really ticked off. Because I believe people are healed in community when they’re wounded in community. Julie Roys: 100%. And I know when I came through just so much grief and pain and church hurt. I know a lot of people go to therapy and I’m not against therapy, but I was like, I don’t need to talk to this about this with a counselor. It’s just not like that. I need to be in a community where there’s love. I need to see beauty in people like again. And even though I’m afraid to be vulnerable on some levels at the same time, I’m compelled to be vulnerable because I know until you do that, you can’t heal. Mary DeMuth: When we met with the person who became our pastor and there’s a multiplicity of pastors in this particular denomination, but we sat across from him and we told him our story and he just listened, and he dignified the story. And then he said this, he said, we just want to love you. And I just immediately just, I was like, what? you don’t want to use me? Cause we’ve been in leadership positions in the church for so long, our whole adult lives we’ve been in those positions and for him to say, we just want to love you. And that was foreign to me, but that was the beginning of that healing journey. Julie Roys: I had a pastor at one of the churches we visited when we were in this search process. And it was at a very large church I would say it’s probably a megachurch, and we sat across from him and he said a very similar thing. It was really wonderful. And he said, “I think you guys have been wounded deeply, and you need a place to heal. And we do just want to love you. What was interesting is when I came back to him with a follow up email, because part of me is like wait, this is a megachurch. Am I insane? Julie Roys: I’m just like looking at it and being like,  I don’t think this is at all what I want. And then I emailed him. I said, we want a pastor. Would you be able to pastor us? And then he basically declined as nicely as he could; like I’d love to be, but I can’t and I’m like I don’t need a small group leader to try and pastor me. I was just kind of like of course, you can’t because you have the corporation to run. And so that is again a fundamental issue that I do have with the mega church. Julie Roys: One thing I found and I see it here, because I don’t know how many people in the Chicago area who have left Willow Creek and ended up at Harvest. They’re like, wow, di I know how to pick them! They’re going from something that’s become familiar. And if you became a believer at Willow, then that big model, that big service, whiz bang entertaining sermon or inspirational talk, whatever you want to call it. Julie Roys: Although I’ll say at Harvest, he preached he discipled people. I know a lot of people from Harvest that were discipled shockingly by a really depraved pastor. But I see them going from what they’re used to. And it’s almost like when I see people who grew up in a dysfunctional home and thank God you didn’t do this, but they often then replicate that in their own home, or they’re attracted to that same kind of dysfunction in the next home. Julie Roys: And I’ve seen it with churches and I’m just like, why are you going to the same model of church that you just left? And I see that there’s this thought in their head that it’s just the one bad apple. That’s all it is. It’s the one bad apple, but basically there’s nothing wrong with the system. Julie Roys: I think there’s something fundamentally wrong with the system. So speak to that. Do you think, I know you’ve got some pretty strong opinions now about celebrity megachurches, even though you said some megachurches we’ve seen work. Do you have some thoughts about the model of church and what makes a safe church? Mary DeMuth: Yes. So many thoughts. I’ll start with a story. In the early two thousand, I went to my first Christian writers conference before I was published and on the airplane on the way there, my story flashed before my eyes and I said, Lord I’ve withstood a lot of trials. Like I’ve gone through a lot of trials. Mary DeMuth: And he said clearly to me, you have withstood many trials, but will you withstand the trial of notoriety? And that has stayed in my mind all these years because fame emaciates, fame makes you think that you’re better than other people and that people exist to serve you rather than you equipping the saints for the work of service. Mary DeMuth: And when the systems are in a place, typically what happens is the ego takes over. There’s something deep within the narcissistic system. And in the narcissistic pastor, they have this wound that they can’t fill except by acclaim. And then it’s like a drug, so they have to keep being acclaimed. They cannot have negative things said about them. Mary DeMuth: Therefore, the next thing they’ll do is they will dismantle the elder board, or they will significantly reduce the influence of the elder board that exists or completely dismantle it altogether. They will gather yes-men around themselves who will only say positive things to them that are not in their context that cannot see them do the bad things And who are other megachurch pastors. So there’s just this like cabal of megachurch pastors that are sitting on each other’s boards saying you can do whatever you want and have fun. Mary DeMuth: That system is ungodly and that will cause the fall of many leaders, which we have already seen over and over and over. It’s like a broken record of sameness. It keeps happening. Why? Because I think we are creating a church structure from a pyramid, which if you look in the Bible, the Israelites left Egypt, but were still looking back at it. One person at the top, one Pharaoh at the top, one supreme ruler, and then everybody has to fit into that system underneath that pyramid. Mary DeMuth: Whereas the kingdom of God is the opposite of that. It’s an inverted pyramid. The kingdom is of people that are last to are not acknowledged. And I think we’re going to be super surprised at where they are standing in line and the new heavens and the new earth, the people with all the acclaim are going to be way at the back. The people that nobody knew about that were silently and quietly serving the Lord are going to be at the front of the line. And we’re going to say, tell me your story, I want to learn from you. Mary DeMuth: But these structures cause the downfall of many men who do not have the character to hold up that structure. They’ve been given leadership responsibility without having maturity, and therefore they are stealing sermons. They are harming people with their words. They are demonizing others. They are all sorts of things you talked about last week. They’re doing those things because they have to keep their empire because their ego needs it so badly. Julie Roys: And the other thing is, and we can’t really even go into this, although I know you see this too, because you run your own literary agency, is that the evangelical industrial complex needs these celebrity pastors to function. So they need the publishing companies need the celebrities so that they can publish them, so that the megachurches need the celebrity to fuel their model of that great attractional speaker that can be everything. Which again, does just feed into the narcissism and it attracts the narcissism. Julie Roys: We like the narcissist. And the whole entire moneymaking empire runs on these narcissists and these celebrity pastors. And so it’s not just even the pastor himself who needs to be a celebrity, but it’s this system that needs celebrities. And at some point, Mary we’ve got to deal with this and evangelicalism, or we’re just going to keep doing this over and over and over again. Mary DeMuth: And I believe the Lord is bringing judgment on those systems. And we’re seeing that in publishing as well. I think it’s a broken system. We make these requirements of how popular you are to be able to be an author. In the nineties and before, it was really about can you write a good book? Is it theologically sound? Do you have a good mind? Do you have a heart to minister to others? And now it’s how many social media followers do you have? Which is you can buy those. Mary DeMuth: So what does that even mean? I hate being a cog in the Christian industrial complex, both as an author and as a literary agent, but as an agent, I feel like I’m championing projects that would otherwise not get sold. That are more global voices people that are marginalized and not often given a voice. So that’s why I have a literary agency. Cause I’m trying to have those voices platformed. Julie Roys: Before you go, I want to ask you also about, we’ve talked a little bit about a safe church, but what makes somebody a safe person as you’re trying to process this? Mary DeMuth: A safe person is someone who doesn’t speak initially, who is an active listener. Who doesn’t jump to conclusions, who doesn’t feel the need to defend the church that you are leaving, who doesn’t say things like Hebrew says don’t forsake your assembling together. Those kinds of like cliche, like super cliche oh, you better do this instead of just meeting you in your grief. Mary DeMuth: A safe person doesn’t try to change your state. They come alongside you into your state and they weep alongside. And that to me is so powerful. People won’t remember what you said, but they will remember that you were there with them in the pain. And we’re just willing to say, yeah, that hurts. And, oh, that must’ve been very painful. Just that empathy piece. Julie Roys: And they won’t shame you for deconstructing. They’ll walk with you; they’ll allow you to process. And I hate that when I see that. I see it on social media all the time, people denigrating people who are deconstructing and I’m like, maybe if you didn’t do that, maybe they wouldn’t be walking away from their faith. But again, deconstructing, I think takes a lot of different forms. I think for a lot of people that have gone through it; they’ve come back to a richer faith that stripped of maybe some of the baggage that they had previously. Julie Roys: Before I let you go, because I know a lot of people listening are in this place of just really, really  struggling and in a lot of hurt. And I know you have names and faces for those people too. Would you be willing to just pray for them and what they’re going through right now? Mary DeMuth: I will. And I’m just going to mention, I have a free resource, MARYDEMUTH.COM/CHURCHHURT. And it’s a hundred statements about things that people feel when they’re going through church hurt so that you can share it with a friend and check off the ones that are you, and then have a good conversation about it. Julie Roys: Wonderful. What a great resource. Thank you. Mary DeMuth: Yeah. Okay. Let me pray. Lord, thank you for loving the least of these. Thank you for leaving the 99 and chasing the one. Thank you for being counterintuitive. Thank you for the Sermon on the Mount. Thank you for your grace being sufficient for us and your power is made perfect in our weakness. Mary DeMuth: Lord, forgive us for these systems where we are worshiping strength, power, and numbers when that’s nothing to do with your kingdom. Reorient our lives and our hearts to what is your kingdom. Help us to hear your voice in the midst of the madness and the muddledness of what this has become. I pray that you would send friends to my friends who are suffering in the aftermath of spiritual abuse and church hurt. Mary DeMuth: I pray for hope Lord in these kinds of situations, it can feel like a death, and it feels very hopeless and sad. I pray for comfort and pray all of this in your beautiful name, Jesus. Amen. Julie Roys: Amen. Mary. Thank you so much. And how beautiful that even in this you are ministering to others through it. So I am just so grateful for you and for Patrick and for what you bring to the kingdom. And thank you so much for being willing to talk so vulnerably and bravely. So thank you. Mary DeMuth: Thank you. Julie Roys: And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and I want to invite all of you to our next Restore Conference in Phoenix in February 2025. Julie Roys: This is one of the most healing gatherings I know of, where you won’t just hear from amazing folks like Mary DeMuth and Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tove, and Dr. David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. But you’ll also meet lots of other people who have gone through similar experiences, and I’ve found that just being in that kind of community is so healing. Julie Roys: And so powerful. So please come. I would love to meet you there. To find out more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. Julie Roys: And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. 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Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/fFImYJWb2XUNancy French was once a darling of the GOP—and ghostwrote books, speeches, and articles for some of the leading conservative politicians. But then came Donald Trump's candidacy for president—something as both a Christian and a sex abuse survivor, Nancy says she could not support. Then, she was ghosted. In this edition of The Roys Report, Nancy French, a New York Times bestselling author and Christian conservative, recounts how she's been called some of the worst names in the book. Why? Simply because she and her husband, New York Times opinion columnist David French, refused to violate their convictions and promote Donald Trump. Even more egregious to some, Nancy published an article in the Washington Post explaining why, as a sex abuse survivor, she couldn't support a man who bragged about assaulting women. As a result, she lost every ghostwriting client she had. And she found herself unwelcome in her own tribe and her own church. But Nancy tells about much more in her book than just the events of the last few years. She tells about her humble beginnings, her sexual assault by a pastor who taught Vacation Bible School, and the dramatic change in her life when she met her husband, David French. Nancy French and her husband have been at the center of the major upheaval our nation has faced—as a new political paradigm invaded the church pews. As an abuse survivor and woman of conviction, Nancy courageously shares her story that has insights for every listener. Guests Nancy French Nancy French has collaborated on multiple books for celebrities - five of which made the New York Times best seller list. She has conducted a multi-year journalistic investigation, written commentary, and published for the nation's most prominent newspapers and magazines. She has written several books under her own name and tells her own story in Ghosted: An American Story. She lives in Franklin, Tennessee with her husband – journalist David French – and family. Learn more at NancyFrench.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSJulie Roys, NANCY FRENCH Julie Roys  00:04Nancy French was once a darling of the GOP and ghostwrote books, speeches, and articles for some of the leading conservative politicians. But then came Donald Trump’s candidacy for president; something as both a Christian and a sex abuse survivor, Nancy couldn’t support. Then she was ghosted. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Nancy French, a New York Times best-selling author, a Christian and a conservative who’s been called some of the worst names in the book. Why? Simply because she and her husband, New York Times opinion columnist David French, refused to violate their convictions and promote Donald Trump. Even more egregious to some, Nancy published an article in the Washington Post explaining why as a sex abuse survivor, she couldn’t support a man who bragged about assaulting women. As a result, she lost every ghostwriting client she had, and she found herself unwelcome in her own tribe and her own church. Nancy writes about all of this in her book Ghosted, which we’re offering this month to anyone who gives a gift of $50 or more to The Roys Report. And if you’d like to do that, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. But Nancy tells about much more in her book than just the events of the last few years. She tells us about her humble beginnings, her sexual assault by a pastor who taught Vacation Bible School, and the dramatic change in her life when she met her husband, David French. I’m so excited to share both the book and this podcast with you. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Justice has become a key issue in our culture. But more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by his word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well focusing on the right use of power in our churches, so we can protect the vulnerable rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of character. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Well again joining me is New York Times best-selling author Nancy French. As a ghostwriter, she’s written for a variety of people, from well-known politicians to celebrities. She’s also investigated and exposed widespread sexual and spiritual abuse at Kanakuk camp, America’s largest Christian camp, and her latest book Ghosted, tells her remarkable story of growing up in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains, marrying David French, a New York Times opinion columnist, becoming a ghostwriter for conservative political leaders. And then when she and her husband opposed Trump, getting kicked out by their own tribe and then becoming the target of white nationalists and Trump supporters. So Nancy, welcome, and it’s just such a privilege to have you.   NANCY FRENCH  04:08 Thanks for having me on. This is fun.   Julie Roys  04:11 And I know that this is not the best time for you to be doing a book tour. You’ve been very public about your struggle with cancer. And I know you’re going through chemo. And I just feel honored that you’d be willing to take the time in the middle of something like that to talk about this. So thank you.   NANCY FRENCH  04:27 Yeah, no, thank you so much. Yes, I think I’ve done pretty well with all the interviews, even though I’m high as a kite on prednisone. And I haven’t said too many things that I maybe regretted later. But I’m very thankful to be able to have a book out. It just so happens, it’s in the middle of chemo. So this is gonna get real.   Julie Roys  04:45 Yeah. Well, absolutely. And I was surprised when I read your book. I mean, you and David are kind of like this powerhouse couple. And yet, you had very humble beginnings. In fact, your grandparents lived in the mountains of Appalachia; you lived in the foothills because your parents moved. But again, they were interesting sort of rough and tumble group of people. In fact, your dad used to joke that your family was famous or maybe infamous is a better word. Tell us a little bit about that and the background of your family.   NANCY FRENCH  05:19 Yeah, we get accused a lot of being like Washington, DC cocktail party elites or whatever. I don’t even go to Washington DC. I am from Tennessee. My parents are from Montego mountain. My grandfather was a coal miner. My dad did not graduate from high school. He got his GED. And he later in his 50s went back to college. But  he went to college, he got a degree and amazing man. But yeah, from self-described hillbillies, and all that entails. And yeah, I wanted to sort of describe my upbringing, just so that people could understand that many times people will say, Well, you just don’t understand what true Americans think or you don’t understand what true Tennesseans think. And I always sort of in my mind laugh at that because I’m like, you can’t out Tennessee me. You can be an American and a real Tennessean and hold the beliefs that I hold, you know, so that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to describe that upbringing. I love my family. They’re amazing. They’re fierce. And I think some of that ferocity has been passed on to me and I just I love my hillbilly family.   Julie Roys  06:32 And your part Cherokee Indian too?   NANCY FRENCH  06:35 Yeah, we have a lot of Indian blood. So my grandmother was I think was 1/4. And that was Cherokee. And then my grandfather also had a different type of Montana Indian in him, which is interesting. But yeah, it was all mixed together.   Julie Roys  06:52 So your dad broke from your family, moved to the foothills. Mayfield, Kentucky, which I know where that’s at. My dad actually lives near there now. But Mayfield, Kentucky, then eventually to Tennessee. Talk about the culture of the home that you grew up in, but also the town and sort of rural Tennessee and what that was like.   NANCY FRENCH  07:16 So Paris, Tennessee, has a 16-foot-tall Eiffel Tower,   Julie Roys  07:22 An Eiffel Tower.   NANCY FRENCH  07:25 There’s a huge battle between Paris, Texas and Paris, Tennessee over this Eiffel Tower business. But Paris, Tennessee is an amazing place. I grew up near the lake, Kentucky lake. We have a 60-foot Eiffel Tower. It’s just a great place to grow up very rural. We did not necessarily value education in the way that you would think a school might. For example, in seventh grade, I did not have science class, but instead they decided because none of us were going to go to college, to teach us about guns and so we had hunter safety classes and that culminated in skeet shooting contest. Which, I don’t like to brag, I don’t like to but sometimes you got to. I was the best shot in my seventh-grade class. Which is interesting and funny, but that’s how I grew up; just complete redneck hillbilly sort of existence and I loved it. Like I love Paris, Tennessee. I love Montego mountain and I love Mayfield, Kentucky.   Julie Roys  08:28 Well, it’s funny you say you lived in Paris, Kentucky. My parents for probably about 12 years lived in London, Kentucky, which you know, we didn’t know Kentucky at all. We grew up in Pennsylvania, but we thought it was kind of comical because it’s the least like London of any place I can think of in all of the United State.   NANCY FRENCH  08:47 There’s also Versailles.   Julie Roys  08:49 Versailles right. Not Versailles. But Versailles.   08:52 Yes. And there’s also a fence. Right. Yeah, it’s crazy. Love all these small towns.   Julie Roys  08:59 Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that your dad did differently than your growing up or his growing up, I mean, he came from sort of a superstitious, it sounded like background very sort of animated with maybe tribal kind of religion. But then he became a part of the Church of Christ, and describe what that church was like, I mean, seems from your description, very conservative, but also kind of leaning towards the legalistic side.   NANCY FRENCH  09:32 Yes, that is a very kind way of putting it, Julie. But I will say this, the church probably saved my dad. It’s like, saved his life saved his soul saved my, because he got off the mountain and he and my mother started going to church. They took us to church three times a week. It was just very wonderful and Norman Rockwell ish, you would think, but under the  facade of that sweet small town, Southern church experience, there was a lot of abuse happening at my church. So I was abused by, there was one guy who was like a predator. And he abused 15 people in my church. I didn’t know about the other 14, I only knew about me. I only now know this in the process of writing the book, I figured this out. But I grew up sort of feeling isolated spiritually. And it made me feel differently about God. Previously, church was a cushion, the warm blanket, a place to lay your head. And then all of that was ripped away from me because of that abuse. And I became isolated and smoked cigarettes and painted my fingernails black and skipped church, and it just set me on a bad path.   Julie Roys  10:43 And you were 12 years old when that happened? .   10:46 That’s right. And the preacher was 10 years older.   Julie Roys  10:51 I read your book soon after I read Krista Browns book who of course, was sexually abused in her church as a child. I was actually stunned by the similarities between your story and her story. But I think that the thing that really struck me was the way that both of you internalized it. She internalized it, she called it an affair. How can you have an affair with your youth pastor when you’re an underage teen. You, similarly, you kind of took the guilt and shame on yourself.   11:27 I did. And I think this is common. This is like sort of an embarrassing book to write because it’s so I don’t know, like, actually, I shouldn’t even say that. I’m saying words that are shame full. Like I’m saying this is embarrassing, but I didn’t do anything wrong, right?   Julie Roys  11:45 No, you didn’t.   NANCY FRENCH  11:46 That’s what you think. And in the church with the purity culture sometimes, very well meaning poorly conceived theology. Which is, if you have a sexual sin, which by the way, you don’t, if you’re being abused, that’s not a sin, you’re not the one sinning. But if you’ve been compromised sexually, you’re ruined for the rest of your life. And I internalized that, and I thought that was right. And I also thought that this pastor, preacher, Vacation Bible School person, I thought he loved me, because I was 12. I didn’t know, I didn’t know anything about this. I just didn’t perceive it correctly. So I told myself the wrong story about this abuse almost my whole life. And so this book, though, there’s a lot more to it than just the abuse, obviously. This is me correcting the record for myself. But I wanted to do it publicly for all the people out there who feel guilty over stuff that they shouldn’t feel guilty over. And also, I became a complete mess after my abuse, and I wanted to show people that. Because what happens is you get embarrassed because you make a series of bad decisions and you look unsophisticated, you look immoral, you look like trash. And people will, they’ll look at you and they’ll say, that’s just trash, why are you listening to her? When in actuality, they should look at the damage that has been done to people in the church and repent about the way they’ve been handling abuse. And so I sort of wanted to put myself out there and say, Okay, y’all esteem me now, when I’m almost 50, because I’ve gotten my life together to the degree that I have, which I haven’t, but people esteem me. They don’t know about any of this. So I wanted to say, Okay, this is what it looks like, this is what I looked like. And I looked ridiculous. I was flailing, I was terrible in a lot of ways. You know, let’s talk about it.   Julie Roys  13:45 I think that’s so helpful. Because especially now when we have as public figures, you have a curated image, and it’s often so different than the real image, right? Although I really appreciate it, you have been so real, I think, especially as you’ve been walking through your cancer, the treatments and everything. I’ve so appreciated that. I appreciate that today, you forgot your wig. And so you’re just wearing whatever, and a lot of people would be like, Oh, I can’t go on. But I love that because that’s where all of us are. We like to pretend we’re not. But that’s where all of us are, at least at different points in our life. And so I just, I appreciate that. And I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening, who appreciate that as well. It didn’t end with the violence and the abuse didn’t end with that Pastor whose name was Conrad as I recall, but you had a boyfriend then, Jacob, who unbelievable. I mean, who this man turned out to be and you were trying to break it off from him forever. That did remind me of boyfriends I’ve tried to break it off with and you couldn’t. But talk about what happened with Jacob  and how that impacted you.   NANCY FRENCH  15:03 So I tried to find solace outside the church, meaning in boyfriends, and I made a series of terrible mistakes. And I dated this one guy, who eventually, I actually, Julie, double crossed him. I was cheating on him to let the record show that I was not innocent in this. But it was like I could not break up with him, I didn’t have the backbone to break up with him. And every time I tried, he threatened to commit suicide. And I realize now how terrible that is. I didn’t know it at the time. But in one very terrible moment, he revealed that he knew I had been cheating on him, and he tried to kill me. And so that was a pretty dramatic moment, he tried to strangle me, and it was bad. And boy number two, the guy that I was dating, actually came and rescued me from the situation at the very last second, very wonderful. So that boyfriend number two realized that I was cheating on him. And that I was in duress in the same moment. And he immediately pivoted to try to help me, and he did. I’m very thankful for that. But all of that was the pre-David French romance, which you can imagine when I met David French, who is so levelheaded and calm and good and mora., I wanted that. And that’s what I got. So David French sort of helped put me back on track. And, yeah, I’ll be forever grateful to him over that.   Julie Roys  16:35 Yeah, I was really struck by how big of a difference he made in your life. I mean, at this point,  you’re a victim of two assaults. You’re just absolutely reeling. You’re going to Lipscomb University, which is a Church of Christ school. Although I thought it was interesting that you could not even go to chapel. You knew, if you didn’t go to chapel, you’re going to lose your scholarship. But you call it the positive theology that you couldn’t stomach at that point. I think this is actually good for Christians to hear. Because it’s still there in a lot of churches where it’s very, well just describe what that was, and how that struck you as somebody who’s been through the kind of abuse that you have been through.   NANCY FRENCH  17:30 Yeah, I just had experienced so much. And then my best friend died. And in the same time period, and I was full of grief, though, I wasn’t even really properly processing. I wasn’t grieving the way you’re supposed to grieve. But I knew when I go into chapel, I was actually seeking answers, like, what do you do when you’re completely decimated by life? And the chapel speakers would be like, Hey, guys, we should be humble. Let me tell you about my little league game where I was pitching, and this happened. And I was just like, what is happening? This is so vacuous. I could not listen to this one more syllable. This is going to kill me. It felt like they were trying to kill me. And the reason why is because they didn’t have a doctrine of suffering. Right? Like I was really suffering. Not to mention the fact now that I realized that the Church of Christ leaders knew that I was being abused by this preacher and didn’t do anything. That’s a whole different level of stuff. The people at Lipscomb weren’t guilty of any of that. They were just nice people. And Lipscomb is really amazing. Like David works there. Now, David has always had a great experience there. But my experience there was I could not get down with this theology that I thought was vacuous. And it did not help. I needed help, like I need to help. I was suicidal, or something close to suicidal. So I needed help. And so those chapel talks were not going to cut it. And so I got called into the Dean of Students called me in and he was like, if you don’t go back to chapel, you’re losing everything. And I was like, I’ve lost everything. I don’t care. I never went back. But there’s something about this toxic positivity that I noticed with cancer, and here’s why. So whenever people find out that you have cancer immediately, they want to pray for your healing and for the cure. You have people at McDonald's stop and pray for your healing, which is very kind and sweet. But when I first got my diagnosis, my son, who’s a philosophy major, said there’s going to be beauty in this. Like, you have to keep your eyes open to see the beauty in this. And there’s, I have like, that was such an interesting, salient thing to say, because there’s so much to learn through disease and disability. Like looking like this. Like, I have no makeup on. I have no hair. In 1 million years would not have taken a picture and posted it to Facebook, let alone been on an interview with you a year ago looking like this. And I am so happy because I feel like, I don’t know, Julie, have maybe this is just me. I’m completely insecure. But I’m insecure my whole life. I’m almost 50 I’m insecure over the way I look. I’m insecure over cellulite, I’m over insecure over my weight, I’m insecure over my teeth that are equine looking. Like whatever you know. But what I’ll do as a ghostwriter, I’ll move in and help people write books about confidence. And so I was talking to my friend, Kim Gravelle, who has her own makeup line and fashion line on QVC. She’s a queen, amazing businesswoman. And we wrote a book called, Collecting Confidence, and I was talking to her, and she was like, you’re so confident I love seeing you. And I was like I faked all that. I completely faked all that. I can’t even imagine people who are confident, like I don’t even get that. But the cancer thing. Oh my gosh, it’s like it removed the vanity or something. And I don’t want to say vanity like it’s negative because we all you know, care what we look like, and it’s important. But I am not going to criticize my body again. I’m so thankful for it. And thankful for the way I look. I’m thankful for being bald because it allows me to connect with people in the most beautiful ways. Women who have cancer will send me pictures of their bald heads and they’re afraid to do it publicly. Some of them don’t even let their husbands see their bald heads. And so what I’m trying to do is normalize this, like this is okay, it’s okay to look like this. I probably won’t look like this forever. But it’s okay to look like this. And so when I’m doing my normal life, that’s not book promotion, typically, I just go bald. And people come up to me and they’re like, is this a fashion choice? Is this you know, like, what’s going on? Because I also tattooed my eyebrows on, because I’m not completely free of vanity. But anyway, it just opens up so much conversation and so whenever you’re faced with lament and grief and loss and abuse and death and disease and disability, you better have a doctrine of suffering. And you have to know how your faith intersects with that. And the good news is it intersects in a very beautiful way. With Christianity, we get back what we lose. It’s a beautiful thing. And I just love the fact that there’s so much truth and beauty even when we look like this. There’s still truth and beauty that we can tap into that is so much greater than my tattooed eyebrows, although on fleek.   Julie Roys  23:05 Well, I think you look beautiful, even with a bald head. But I love that. I absolutely love that. And I love that sometimes when we go through, I was telling somebody this recently that sometimes when we go through really horrific things, the things that used to scare us, the things that used to be so daunting, now we’re like, now that I’ve gone through this, like, go ahead, make my day. I’m not afraid anymore. And I do think it’s a wonderful like, I’ve never been through cancer, so I don’t want to even pretend that I know what that’s like. But yeah, I do hear what you’re saying and suffering for believers is redemptive; it’s always redemptive in some way. And I think you’re right that we don’t talk about it nearly enough in the church. I want to get back to David, because again, he made this huge, huge difference in your life. And I just thought it was so beautiful how you wrote about him. But he really, I mean, here you are an absolute wreck. And I love how when you met him like you confronted him, because he’s the one who convinced you to go to Lipscomb. And you’re like, thanks a lot, you know, and you kind of laid into him. And yet he responded in such a gracious way and within. I mean, I don’t know if it was a few hours or days like he had led you to the Lord.   NANCY FRENCH  24:27 Yeah, we had a very truncated experience dating, romantically and spiritually. He was sick. He had an incurable disease, which is a totally different story. So he was sick. We started dating, the second date, I realized I could marry this person. And then I think we were engaged within three months. I didn’t know him. He was like a complete stranger. But during that very brief amount of time he told me about Jesus. He was like he was telling me about the Holy Spirit because David French, New York Times columnist, was cured of an incurable disease,  Okay? And that was in 95. And I got to see that happen. He weighed 100 pounds when we were dating, he was so sick. And maybe 120 I don’t know; he lost a ton of weight. But I got to see this miracle happen. And I didn’t believe in miracles. I didn’t believe in any of it. So he was telling me about that. And I was like, wow, I think I might need to know about whatever it is that you know about. And so he used CS Lewis to talk me through the Lord, lunatic or liar, those three options. And for those listening, CS Lewis was basically like, Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. Was he telling the truth? Was he insane? Or was he just lying? And I could not bring myself to say that Jesus Christ was lying. I just couldn’t. And so the only thing and I didn’t think he was a lunatic. So I was like, you know, I think Jesus was telling the truth. And that small thing changed my life, because I believed and David helped me believe, and it was very beautiful. So I write about that in the book.   Julie Roys  26:11 Yeah. Lord, liar, lunatic. It’s a powerful argument. So simple, but so powerful. And yet a lot of people just have never, they’ve never thought deeply about it. And then you guys got married, in Paris, which is great. I won’t go into it because we don’t have time. But that was a great, great story. You moved to Manhattan. And then you, this hit me in a probably a different way than it would normally because I kind of lean charismatic. So I’m open to charismatic things, even though I would say, I grew up, my dad was a surgeon. So we were always, if you thought you were sick, it was kind of like, prove it. It was everything a little bit skeptical. And, as a journalist, we tend to be pretty skeptical too. But I read this about your encounter with a prophet. It was I guess; it was like a reunion of the Harvard Christian group that David had been a part of. And well, you were skeptical too. So tell about that experience, because it really is pretty mind blowing.   NANCY FRENCH  27:23 Craziest story. I became a Christian. I have one inch of theological belief, which is I believe Jesus Christ is Lord, all in You. And the Harvard Law School Christian fellowship was having a reunion. And we went, and by the way, I don’t want to go hang out with a bunch of people who graduated from Harvard, right? Because, a three-time college dropout. I don’t want to hang out with these people. I’m intimidated. Everybody is so smart. And also, when you grow up in the way that I grew up, you’re taught that people who believe in the Holy Spirit and Pentecostals or charismatics are low class, they’re unsophisticated, they’re not smart. They’re given to emotion. So here I am going into the Harvard Law School Christian Fellowship. So they’re smarter than I am. They get paid a lot of money to evaluate documents, and the Bible is a document. And David was like, Yeah, I think they invited a prophet, and I was like, What is a prophet? Is this like a psychic? Like I don’t have a category for this. And so we go to the thing, and I was apprehensive because, Julie, I don’t know if this is a sign of a guilty conscience. 100% It is. But if you talk to a prophet, I was thinking that he would say, Well, you don’t read your Bible. You don’t pray, your main to whatever, you know, like whatever you kick the dog, whatever, like he could read my mail. So I didn’t want to talk to a prophet either. So anyway, we go to the thing. Gary has on a Hawaiian shirt. He’s smelly, he has a hairy belly, and I can see the bottom of it. It’s insane. I’m like, okay, so this is Gary the Prophet. Okay, whatever. So Gary the Prophet, y’all gotta read this, it’s the craziest thing that ever happened. But he goes to the people at the Harvard Law School Christian Fellowship, and I thought he would say to Harvard Law people, Oh, you struggle with pride? Or oh, I don’t know, you’ve got so much intelligence. I don’t know what you’d say to Harvard people. I’m not a Harvard person, as you can tell. But that’s not what he did. He went around the room and read to like, spoke into their lives. So for example, I don’t know if you know Shaunti Feldheim. She’s a Christian. Shaunti was there, and her husband Jack, and I use their names in the book. And later I was like, Hey, I used your name in the book with this crazy thing because they were there and they had this crappy car that Shaunti and Jeff, like, they were the only people in New York City who had the car of our friend group. So they were very nice to let us use the car, but it was a freaking jalopy, and they were always in fights over it. And so, but Gary looked at Jeff and Shaunti and spoke to them about this car. And I was like, what? So you got a chance to talk to a prophet. He’s giving you automobile advice, that’s weird. And then he went to other people, and he talked to another friend who secretly had written poetry and he said, “You know the poetry right secretly? It’s time to do this was like literary advice. I was like, what is happening, Gary the Prophet? So then Gary the prophet looked at me, and he was like you, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, this is gonna be so bad. And he called me up. And he told me, he said, you’re pregnant. And I was like, No, I’m not. Julie, this is TMI, but this is what’s happening. I was on my period, and I told him that, and he looked at me, I said, it is impossible, because I wanted everyone in this Harvard Law School Christian fellowship to realize they’ve been duped by a con man. And so I was like, defiant, like, No, I’m on my period. I’m not pregnant. And he just laughed at me. And he was like, with God, all things are possible. But this is what you need to know, you are pregnant, you are carrying a girl, she’s going to come this year, she’s going to have physical problems, here is five Bible verses that you need to know. When they tell you that you’re aborting, don’t believe it, you’re gonna have a healthy baby. And all is gonna be well just remember these words. And I was like, okay, Gary, the Prophet. This is weird because I wasn’t pregnant, right? But he scared me to death. So I go home, and my period stops. And I think, you know, this is weird. I think he’s scared me into not having a period. Gary the prophet is the worst prophet ever. And then later, though, like I took a pregnancy test, and I was pregnant. Apparently, the bleeding that I thought was my period was implantation. And Gary the prophet knew this. And lo and behold, a few months later, the doctor calls and he says, “You are miscarrying. You’re aborting call off the parties. But they gave me a due date in January. I knew that wasn’t the case, because he said that she was going to come this year, and I also knew the gender. So talking about gender reveal party, Gary the Prophet, you did not need that. And Camille was born. And she’s amazing. And right now this second, she’s 13 floors up. She’s got two of my grandchildren, that she’s given birth to; cute, wonderful, beautiful kids. And we’ve seen God’s hand in Camille’s life and all of our lives in such dramatic ways. And that cured me of being skeptical of the Holy Spirit. My book is called Ghosted, not just because I’m a celebrity ghostwriter, or because vast friend groups have ghosted me for my political decisions. But also I wanted it to encourage people to really consider the Holy Ghost, to consider God, because He will not let you down even though everyone else will.   Julie Roys  33:03 I never said why I’m a little more skeptical than I used to be. And it’s because of what’s happening at the International House of Prayer. Just, and of course, I mean, this is the umpteenth. I don’t know how many scandals I’ve covered since I’ve started The Roys Report. I mean, it’s just been one after another after another. But this particular one, I think is especially gross, because prophecy was used to manipulate and then abuse women. And then we have this prophetic history that now some of the key facts in it have been debunked. And it just seems like it was used in such a manipulative way. And so I’m trying to figure out why God? Like why do you even like, is that real? Like when people get because I remember, I used to be in the Vineyard, and I remember hearing stories, and I remember miraculous things happening. And then you go to a church where they don’t expect that to happen, and guess what? It doesn’t, you know, kind of like the Holy Spirit doesn’t work in ways that our faith doesn’t allow it to, sometimes, but it was good for me to hear it.   NANCY FRENCH  34:17 I think that’s a very interesting point. And it’s important to say it, because the charismatic church has really, really messed up with this Donald Trump prophecy stuff.   Julie Roys  34:29 Oh, my goodness, yeah.   NANCY FRENCH  34:31 They’ve gone off the rails. And so what do you do like if you’re a Christian person, and this is not just for charismatic people or Pentecostal people, but all white evangelicals who are going to church where the egregious evil is overlooked because of political positions? What do you do? And so that’s the thing I don’t I don’t even go to a Pentecostal church. I just really believe that there’s a lot of counterfeit stuff happening, with all these prophecies, political prophecies. But if it’s counterfeit, that indicates there’s something true. Right? So it’s a mimicry of something good. And so I would just encourage, I don’t know how to do it. I’m not doing church right. I’m completely a mess; I’m hanging on to Christianity by my freaking fingernails. And ever since I got the cancer diagnosis, I can’t really go to church, I’ve gone like twice in seven months. However, I feel so warmly towards God. And I feel like he’s got me. In spite of all of this, I just feel so thankful to God. And I don’t understand God. So when I wrote this book, one of my intentions was to never be invited by a church to come speak on the book at a church. And I think I probably pulled that off, the invitations are not rolling in Julie. And that’s because I don’t understand God. So I’m just telling you the truth. This is what happened to me, there was a guy named Gary, and he had a hairy belly, and a Hawaiian shirt. And he was completely right about the trajectory of my life. And we recorded it because he said, If I’m a false prophet, you’ll be able to say that I’m a false prophet. I’m recording everything I say to you. And there’s some things that haven’t happened yet that I 100% know are going to happen in our lives. Then David and I joke about it all the time because it’s just so crazy. But it feels crazy. But it happened, and I’ve got a kid upstairs, who is alive. And so many things like that happen. And sometimes things happen that you don’t get that aren’t as uplifting, that God acts in ways that are baffling and confusing. And I included those stories too. Because I just wanted the reader to be able to say, Okay, this is what my life looks like, because I wrangle with God and wrestle with God. What does yours look like? Is it as nuts as this? And I just think it is, I think we’re just too sophisticated to talk about it. But I think people have interactions with God all the time. And I want to normalize talking about that.   Julie Roys  37:10 And when I was in Vineyard, their tagline used to be to make the supernatural natural. And I did love tha.t I loved lots of things about my Vineyard experience. I know they’re going through some really, very difficult times right now. But yeah, it was very positive for me in many ways. And I appreciate that. And I appreciate just the fact that I read Scripture differently now, whereas I used to skip over oh my gosh, they raised the dead. You know, like that was normal for the disciples like what does that mean to us today? But it’s challenging.   NANCY FRENCH  37:42 Yeah. Or what does it mean when Paul says just eagerly seek these gifts of the Holy Spirit? Do it just do it, just believe the Bible and do it. And one of the things is church is so nuts right now. It makes you feel like you don’t have a spiritual home. Like, actually, like, I do not have a spiritual home, I’ve been projectile vomited out of like the church.   Julie Roys  38:05 I can relate to this. So yeah.   NANCY FRENCH  38:08 if you can just like divorce yourself from the people who are angry at you for whatever reasons, and just sort of settle into your relationship with God. I don’t think we should forsake the church or the gathering of our friends and saints and all that. I don’t know how to do it. It is a very difficult time. And so I wrote this book for other people who feel politically, culturally, or spiritually homeless. And I’m just sort of like reaching out my hand and saying, Hey, do y’all, this is weird, what’s going on? Do y’all feel weird about this? Anyway, we can be weird together, we can be alone together. And that’s what I hoped the book sort of encapsulated.   Julie Roys  38:47 I loved your story of how you became a ghost writer, which is kind of amazing. You’re a college dropout. And all of a sudden you’re writing for all these stars. A lot of people don’t know that you’re writing the book because you’re a ghost. But you end up writing and I didn’t realize you wrote this book Bristol Palin’s book when she got pregnant. For people, you know, who aren’t familiar with this, although most of us I would guess, that are listening. Or it wasn’t that long ago. Sarah Palin became the vice-presidential candidate. And of course, she’s a conservative, Christian conservative, very traditional values, and then it comes out uh-oh, her daughter Bristol is pregnant out of wedlock. Although it wasn’t really what I think everybody probably assumed at the time. Talk about that experience of writing that book with Bristol, but also of the reception that book got when you published it.   NANCY FRENCH  39:44 Yeah, so I grew up listening to Rush Limbaugh and knowing without a shadow of a doubt that Democrats were sexual predators, or at least for pretty still with them. Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, give me a freaking break. So I was like, okay, So that’s the party. I do not want to have anything to do with. Democrats do not care about women. So I go to Alaska, I live with the Palins, I meet Bristol. Her story is told beautifully in her book. And I’ll let her tell her own story. But I was shocked when I got up there. Because what I thought was true was not true about the Palins. And I love Bristol Palin, she is courageous. She has a backbone, and she is a fighter for what is right. During that very tumultuous time when she got pregnant out of wedlock, she really rose to the occasion and she’s an amazing mother. And I love her so much. But what I learned when I got there, I said to her Bristol, we need to really talk about this baby shower that you had and she goes, I didn’t have a baby shower. And I was like, Yes, you did. I’ve got pictures. Look, your kid has this camouflage onesie. And she was like, Nancy, that is photoshopped. What is wrong with like, it’s so obviously photoshopped. I didn’t know because I was new to the world of lies and deception. But then when Bristol told me her story, how she lost her virginity. She goes, it wasn’t really lost. It was stolen. And I was like, oh, okay, what? I was completely floored by that because all of the media coverage was mocking her. And so when we published this in the book, I thought everybody would be like, my bad. I write for The Washington Post, or I write for the New York Times, or I write for this thing. And we mocked her for what essentially was a sex crime. She was a victim. And we’re sorry about that. That’s not what happened. People continue to mock her. They continue to make fun of her. And what that told me at the time was Democrats do not care about women, unless you’re a certain type of woman. Now, later, fast forward five freakin minutes, and here we are. The GOP standard bearer is someone who has been held criminally accountable for rape in court, much more so than Bill Clinton. And we’ve embraced this guy. So this is my trajectory. It has been one of confusion. I don’t feel like I’ve changed. I feel like you could believe that Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy were sexual predators or had sexual problems, obviously, without you can believe that and also look at people in your own tribe, can say the same things. You can walk and chew gum at the same time. You can just decide to be against sexual predation generally, across the board. It’s pretty easy if you make these decisions. But that’s not what we do. What we do is, oh, Harvey Weinstein. Yes. Well, that’s how Hollywood is, you know, Hollywood, they’re godless. Or the Catholics, for sure the Catholics have a problem. And then you find out oh, is the Baptist, oh it's the deacon Oh, it’s Kanakuk camps in Branson, Missouri. And it’s like, you don’t want to embrace that you’re just like, Nope. A part of my identity is that I’m a part of the good guys, I belong to the good tribe. And that was mine, too. I firmly believed that, that I was on the side of good, but then I wasn't, and I was guilty of mischaracterizing my liberal neighbor and trying to fight for my tribe over truth. And anyway, my book is sort of like unpacking that, it is not chastising the reader. It’s chastising myself because I got too much into the scoring of political points occupationally. And I realized that was not kind of me. God didn’t give me my writing talent for me to disparage my neighbor and to bear false witness. And so that’s what I was doing. And when I decided not to lie, or bear false witness, I was unemployable. I was as popular as head lice. So we used to be super popular in certain circles. And then, you know, nobody wants anything to do with us now.   Julie Roys  44:02 Yeah, yeah. It’s amazing. 2015 You guys were like the darlings of the GOP. I mean, David had gotten  awarded the Ronald Reagan award from CPAC, you know, the Conservative Political Action Conference. I mean, you guys were like, you were the quintessential Christian conservatives. And I think that’s when I was introduced to you. I was working at Moody at the time. And so I was doing a lot of commentaries and it’s amazing to me, I look back and I’m like, I had everything figured out then. Wow. It’s so funny, because I don’t now, but then I did. But I was very right. I was very conservative. And I could spout all of the political reasons why the Conservatives were right. And then all of a sudden, I couldn’t, I don’t think I changed. I don’t think I changed either. I was just absolutely shocked at who my Christian conservative neighbors were. Like, because I had supporters who were furious at me because I spoke out against Trump and stopped supporting me. And I’m like, Who did you think I was? Like, how can you support this man? I have not changed. I thought we were the party that cared about values. And they didn’t. Clearly we cared more about power, we cared more about position. But I have kind of thought, in my role as an investigative reporter in this space, where I call out Christians, and people often don’t want to hear, as you know, the scandals and what’s really going on. And so I thought, I got a lot of hate mail and pushback. Compared to what you and David have been through, I mean, that gave me like a whole new perspective, the personal nature of what was done to you. Especially regarding I know you have a daughter that you have adopted from Ethiopia. The amount of cruelty and this is where I’m like, that whole compassionate conservative thing. I was like, where are they? Talk about what happened to you when again, you simply stuck to your guns, and you spoke out, you spoke out what was true about Donald Trump. What happened?   NANCY FRENCH  46:28 So chaos. We’re big fans of Hamilton, and we are always like chaos and bloodshed. If you know that songs chaos and bloodshed are not the solution. But that’s what ensued. So I wrote a 2016 article in the Washington Post about my own sexual abuse and how I was begging the GOP to consider sexual abuse victims, because we were not about this. Imagine if you’re me, and you grow up believing Bill Clinton is rapist. The Democrats don’t care about women. The GOP is the party of family values. We care about children, all this stuff. Imagine if you’re that, and then they show up and they’re like, Hey, this is the guy that you can vote for. His name is Donald Trump, he grabs women by the genitals. It’s fine. Just, it’s great.   Julie Roys  47:17 Just locker room talk. Yeah.   47:19 And you’re just like, I don’t think I can do this. Is there a problem? So I wrote this article, I talked about my sex abuse for the first time. And I had not even told my counselor about my sexual abuse, I could not even articulate it. So it wasn’t like I had gotten to the point of spiritual maturity and emotional health, and I was finally deciding to make a case in the Washington Post. I had not even told my counselor; I could not even say it. But I went ahead and published this in the Washington Post, and it was a story of my abuse. And my counselor was like, Okay, I think we can work with this. But  this is potentially emotionally problematic, which it was, because I just laid my soul bare. I was like, guys, please. But then after I did that, there were some conservatives, prominent conservatives who were like, oh, Nancy French is just using her personal story to make a political point. And then later, when I would make any sort of statement about politics, these people would say things like, just because Nancy French seduced her pastor doesn’t mean that she should be able to speak about the Supreme Court or something like that.   Julie Roys  48:27 It’s infuriating. It’s infuriating, unbelievable.   NANCY FRENCH  48:30 I’ve never heard anything more evil than this; where you take the victim of pedophilia and say that they seduced a pastor. It’s so sinister. But these are people who y’all read, like, people read these writers, they’re associated with sort of legitimate magazines. I don’t know. I don’t read them. And they make fun of us. They make fun of our adopted daughter because she’s black. They say I had sex with men while my husband was deployed. And that’s how we got this baby. Not through adoption. And then for a time, they put fake-like photoshopped porn of me having sex with black men online and they would photoshop David’s face looking through the window at it, and they called him a cock-servative and obviously, he’s raising the enemy because we have a black child. So all black people are enemy. The evil that came at us with such a flood of evil. I could not even I still cannot even process it. That was all because we decided not to vote for Trump. So I mean, it’s like, I don’t wish it on my worst enemy.   Julie Roys  49:52 It’s unbelievable. It really is. And this is where, like you said, people continue to read some of these people. You call names in the book. You’re not doing it right now, that’s okay. But you can read the book. And you should.   NANCY FRENCH  50:03 Yeah, they’re so inconsequential to me. I was like, should I say their names or not? Because I don’t even like, I don’t even know what they look like. Like, I’m so not dialed in to whatever their thing is. So, you have this thing you’re like, should I elevate them by actually using their names? Or should I protect them? Because surely to goodness, in five minutes, they’re gonna realize they’re on the wrong side of this issue. You know, like, I feel bad for them. I don’t know what their deal is, or why they’re so obsessed with trying to attack victims of sex abuse. But it’s not like this is an anomaly. It’s not like the church otherwise really has it going on in terms of protecting children and women. So, anyway, yeah. So it’s hard to know what to do with these people. And I probably, I vacillated between wanting to name names and score settle. And I just decided not to do that generally, just because I think this story is important, the story is good in and of itself. And these people they’re not. They’re just tokens. They’re just indicative of the things that I wanted to talk about. And I wish them all the best. I hope all of us are progressing politically and spiritually and culturally, to the point where we get better. I feel like I’ve gotten better. And I know we all can, so I don’t even have animus toward them. But they really are on the wrong side of this.   Julie Roys  51:37 Yeah, absolutely. And I should say you name some names, but you do leave quite a few out. Although, if you put some things together, you can probably figure out who they are. But it is shocking what Christians are okay with and what I think this whole crazy political polarization has shown. And it’s been disorienting for a number of us Christians, I think, who are very surprised by it. For you, it cost you your job, your livelihood, essentially. I mean, you’re a ghostwriter, all of your clients were conservatives. We didn’t talk about it, but folks that you have to get the book and read the story about Mitt Romney and when you worked for Mitt Romney and the skiing story, I was laughing out loud. Oh, my gosh, I was laughing so hard.   NANCY FRENCH  52:33 I did include some anecdotes that do not reflect well on my virtue. There is a warning here.   Julie Roys  52:38 Oh that one! Yeah. Again, I’m just gonna tease that one. Because people have to read the book to read that one. And it’s hysterical. But  here you are. You’re basically an unemployed ghostwriter. And Gretchen Carlson comes to you and  tells you about an investigation you can do. It takes you like better part of a year, and you get paid like a big goose egg for it, like nothing. Which I have to, it reminds me of when I got fired at Moody, because that’s when I started investigating Harvest Bible Chapel and James McDonald. And I think that year, I did get paid for that article. But that’s like, the only thing that I wrote for any other publication because I wrote it for World Magazine. But I think I came out ahead when I did, the income minus like, expenses. I made $300 that year. I know. It was fantastic. But  it was that kind of years, I could really relate to all of a sudden, you get this story just dropped on your lap, you tried to get other people to write it, and nobody did. And so you’re faced with this responsibility. And I know this all too well, where you know, a story. You know, I went to journalism school, you didn’t even go to journalism school. You’re a very good writer, an excellent writer. And I think you have obviously excellent investigation skills. And although you had to develop some of I mean, you just went out and you just began investigating this. And you get yourself in so deep that you realize, oh, my goodness, I gotta publish this, right? I’ve got to do something. So talk about it. This was Kanakuk camp, the largest Christian camp, and you find out there is widespread, like over decades, sexual abuse going on. It’s known, and yet, nobody has been held responsible, other than the actual abuser.   NANCY FRENCH  53:34 That’s a lot! Yeah. And you’re being very kind in your description of this. So like, literally, I tried to get everybody to cover this. And I don’t even have a degree period, let alone a journalism degree. And when I realized that I had to be the one to do this because I’m almost 50 years old and I’m a grown person who knows about the abuse. When I realized that and this is after losing my job and being fired, either being fired by or quitting all of my gigs and no money.   Julie Roys  55:13 That’s how we become investigative journalists. We get fired and nothing else you can do.   NANCY FRENCH  55:18 Nothing else you can do. I Googled, what does off the record mean? I didn’t know that there were layers of that, you know this, you’re laughing. It’s so crazy. There’s like no background, anyway. So I googled that. That’s how I started my investigation. It was three years of just angst and agony. And I didn’t have anyone to help because I’m just myself. I really needed a team of like five people or something. But I worked around the clock for three years, and I proved everything that I wanted to prove basically. I only published like 3% of what I know. But yeah, there was a bad guy at Kanakuk camps. He was there. His name is Pete Newman, he abused an estimated hundreds of male campers, several of whom have died via suicide. We still get tips over these deaths. So anyway, awful. But the thing that I uncovered was that Kanakuk camps and its CEO Joe White, they received 10 years of Red Flag Warnings. So they knew for 10 years that this bad guy was convincing campers to disrobe and to be completely nude. He played basketball nude with them; he was on four wheelers nude with them. Which by the way, absolutely disgusting. Just that fact visualizing that they knew that. They knew that parents complained, one camper saw Pete Newman abusing another camper. And they told the Female Camper who was the witness that they didn’t think she was Christian enough to go to the camp. So Pete Newman is in jail. But all of the people who allowed this abuse to happen, they’re still running the camp to this day, nobody’s resigned, nobody’s been fired. The same people. And there’s 25,000 kids who go there per summer. So that’s why I’m so alarmed by it. If you Google Kanakuk, almost everything written about it is me, regrettably. It's  out there, and you can read about it. So I would encourage people and parents just to become aware of that. The reason I’m so sad and despondent over the issue is that I proved everything and the church, their reaction was laconic, is that the right word? I don’t even know what that means. They were not as alarmed as I thought they should be.   Julie Roys  57:38 Apathetic for sure. I mean, they just didn’t care. It’s callous. I mean, I have had investigations that turned out great. Like James McDonald, Harvest Bible Chapel. He got fired, all the elders stepped down. The Ravi Zacharias investigation, I think, pretty much it’s well established. But most of Christendom now realizes he was a sexual predator. John MacArthur, I don’t know what more I could have proved. I really don’t. And it’s been shocking to me that conservative, you know, pundits like Megan Basham still to this day, you know, will defend John MacArthur and I’m like, have you read this? I mean, we have so much documentation. We have video evidence. I mean, we have handwritten letters from him telling the teenage girl whose father molested her that she should forgive him and that he’ll stay on staff, and we know he stayed on staff three more years and then went on to pastor for decades more. And John MacArthur did nothing. It drives you absolutely insane. And you think what on earth is the matter with people? Like what is wrong with you? Nothing has been done to John MacArthur. Nothing has been done to Joe White. Christians continue to just send their kids to a camp where clearly they’re not being protected. How do you come to terms with this, Nancy?   NANCY FRENCH  59:01 I don’t. I’m so depressed. I’ve been in a bad mood for many years. To be completely honest, I don’t know how to resolve it. I’m so depressed over it. And then the Kanakuk investigation dropped like a few days after the SBC was revealed to have all these sexual predators in a database conveniently tracking all the sexual predators and keeping them from the cops. I have no answers and I have decided that I cannot be responsible for the church and their collective inaction on this. That I am not responsible. I cannot exact justice. I just can’t. I am standing on the side of the road with this giant sign over my head saying, justice is coming. Justice is important. One day this will be better. It is not today. But I’ve just decided I’m just going to talk about it. People make fun of me because I’m a one-note song. If you follow me on Twitter or on any of the social media channels, I’m like, Hey, guys, today in Kanakuk saga number 550 million, I’m talking about this, because I have so much information. I published, like 3% of what I know. And so I just want to warn parents and I have, and so I feel comfortable with that. I will not stop talking about it. Lawsuits have been filed based on my investigative work, what I was able to uncover, and I trust lawyers more than I trust the actions of the church in terms of holding people accountable, which, you know, is sad. But I am thankful for attorneys and for brave victims and survivors speaking out. So I’m very thankful. But it took me a long time to get to that point and, I’m not okay with it. I’m sad and depressed. I’m sad about the Christian celebrities who are associated with Kanakuk camps, who won’t speak out. I’m sad about the parents who send their kids to Kanakuk camps. And I’m sad just for all the grieving families who’ve lost family members because of this abuse, it’s awful. And I’m so inspired by the families who choose to say that their loved one who died via suicide,  was a victim at Kanakuk camps. A brave family in Texas did that first and that started all of it.   Julie Roys  1:01:26 Well, you’ve done a Herculean task by digging into that, and if you want a place to publish, you know, the other 97%. If you get well enough, we would love to publish it. I know we published. I mean, based on your research, really, we’ve sort of rewritten some of this stuff, but it’s really well done, really well documented, and you’ve done a service for the church. And you’ve warned people. I figure that’s all we can do, is we can warn people, and then what people do with it, at the end of the day, we have to you’re right, we have to let that go. Because that’s in God’s hands. And we did our job. We warned them, we told them the truth, but it is frustrating. You said, There’s a quote that I just want to read of yours. It’s so good. And I so related to it. You said throughout my life, I desperately wanted to identify the good people and the bad people. So I could walk more confidently among them. Befriending the good ones avoiding the bad ones. I categorized people into tribes, according to their political views, their church attendance, and their voting patterns. But this line was fuzzier than I’d originally believed. I feel that the people we thought were the good guys aren’t necessarily the good guys. I still hold on to my faith, I still have the same convictions. I hold them differently now. I hold them differently. And I think there’s an openness to people that I wouldn’t necessarily be open to before. But talk about where you’re at now with kind of maybe seeing a little more gray than you did before or good, where you made might have seen bad and how you’re processing that?   NANCY FRENCH  1:03:22 Well, I mean, probably the most interesting and honest answer is I realized how that the line separating good and evil runs through my own heart, as Alexander Solzhenitsyn said. And I was guilty of a bunch of stuff. I was politically acrimonious; I was mean to my Democrat neighbors. Mean meaning in my rhetoric. Like I help people own the LIBS or whatever. But I think there’s something very beautiful about aging, I’m almost 50. I do not care about my brand management. For all of you listening, I am not one of the good guys on the good side of the line, and I do all this stuff right. I do some things right. Probably hold a lot of beliefs that I won’t hold in 10 years, hopefully, because you know, you change and you get better and you want to allow space for you to get better, for your party to get better, for your church to get better. I think it’s interesting how you say you hold your beliefs differently. I am just so thankful for being able to not protect your brand. To the church. You’re not God’s PR branch. He doesn’t need you. He doesn’t need you in terms of his marketing. You can embrace the truth of whatever is uncomfortable, and you can talk about it without damaging the gospel, without damaging the church. In fact, you’re protecting the church when you’re calling out evil, you’re protecting children. When you’re calling out evil, you’re protecting women when you’re calling out evil, you’re protecting men. And so you don’t have to say like, oh, well, I’m a Christian, so therefore, I cannot criticize anything that is happening in the church. In fact, that’s biblically the opposite of what we are actually commanded to do. And so I have been guilty of being politically acrimonious and uncharitable towards my neighbor, not protecting the reputations of my neighbor. And I changed. And so I fully believe all of us can change. But that’s not to say that I’m the arbiter of all that is good. And now these people are bad, but it’s just all mixed up. And I feel like we have such capacity for both good and evil. And there’s part of you that is sort of like sobered by that. And then part of me is like, liberated. It’s like, okay, well, that explains a lot. That’s why I’m so petty. That’s why I yell at the kids when I don’t mean to, that’s when I get frus

Just in time for Passover in 2024, Matthew Lilley and Jason Hubbard sit down to discuss the significance of Jesus as the Lamb of God. They delve into the role of communion in experiencing God's presence and the importance of beholding the glory of Jesus as a Lamb. As we near the return of Christ, we can expect greater revelation and emphasis on Jesus as the Lamb - as we see throughout the book of Revelation. The conversation highlights the humility, love, and sacrifice of Christ on the cross and emphasizes the eternal significance of Jesus' role as the Lamb of God.The Presence Pioneers Podcast, hosted by Matthew Lilley, exists to help you experience and host God's presence through worship and prayer - because God's presence changes everything!

Dan and Stephanie set this podcast up with their podcast on Jan 2nd and Jan 16th of 2023. You will want to review this podcast before you hear today's podcast on escaping enemy mode. We took questions from our listeners and those in our coaching courses based on Wilder's work.Some questions that came in:How is attachment and hesed related?How is attachment related to enemy mode?What is a fear bond, and if you have PTSD or have been damaged by a relationship, can you achieve a love bond?What parts of the brain have neuroplasticity? What can be learned for those on the spectrum?More questions answered!NDCCs are easily dragged into enemy mode- simple enemy mode, stupid enemy mode, and intellectual enemy mode. Our brains can unite or divide us. Join us for this discussion with Dr. Jim Wilder.You will want to go back and hear our podcast "Are you in your right mind?" which sets the stage for this conversation.Today we will talk about how those on the autism spectrum, due to neurological wiring, are more easily dragged into enemy mode. But we will also talk about JOY and how to escape enemy mode to re-friend and rebuild attachment/joy.About Dr. Wilder:Dr. Jim Wilder has been training leaders and counselors for over 30 years on five continents. Jim grew up in South America and is bilingual (English/Spanish). He is the author of nineteen books with a strong focus on maturity and relational skills. Dr. Wilder has served as a guest lecturer at Fuller Seminary, Biola, Talbot Seminary, Point Loma University, Montreat College, Tyndale Seminary, and elsewhere.Dr. Jim Wilder has extensive clinical counseling experience and is the chief neurotheologian of Life Model Works, a nonprofit working at the intersection of theology and brain science. Life Model Works builds on the fifty-year legacy of Shepherd's House, which began in the 1970s as a ministry to street kids in Van Nuys, California.In those early days, Jim worked with the team of volunteer counselors and Fuller Seminary faculty to build a counseling center to help broken people recover from negative habits, addictions, abuse, and trauma. By the 1990s, Jim was Assistant Director and later Executive Director of Shepherd's House, helping hundreds of pastors and churches with their toughest counseling cases.Jim was intimately involved in 1987 when Shepherd's House conducted a careful review of why some people with the same level of trauma and treatment recovered, but others did not. The results of this case-by-case study became The Life Model, a new recovery model. The Life Model study findings were published in Living from the Heart Jesus Gave You.

Dan and Stephanie set this podcast up with their podcast on Jan 2nd. You will want to review this podcast before you hear today's podcast on escaping enemy mode.NDCC's are easily dragged into enemy mode- simple enemy mode, stupid enemy mode and intellectual enemy mode. Our brains can unite or divide us. Join us for this discuss with Dr. Jim Wilder.You will want to go back and hear our podcast "Are you in your right mind?" which sets the stage for this conversation.Today we will talk about how those on the autism spectrum due to neurological wiring are more easily dragged into enemy mode. BUT we will also talk about JOY and how to to escape enemy mode to refriend and rebuild attachment/joy.About Dr. Wilder:Dr. Jim Wilder has been training leaders and counselors for over 30 years on five continents. Jim grew up in South America and is bilingual (English/Spanish). He is the author of nineteen books with a strong focus on maturity and relational skills. Dr. Wilder has served as a guest lecturer at Fuller Seminary, Biola, Talbot Seminary, Point Loma University, Montreat College, Tyndale Seminary and elsewhere.Dr. Jim Wilder has extensive clinical counseling experience and is the chief neurotheologian of Life Model Works, a nonprofit working at the intersection of theology and brain science. Life Model Works builds on the fifty-year legacy of Shepherd's House, which began in the 1970s as a ministry to street kids in Van Nuys, California.In those early days, Jim worked with the team of volunteer counselors and Fuller Seminary faculty to build a counseling center to help broken people recover from negative habits, addictions, abuse, and trauma. By the 1990s, Jim was Assistant Director and later Executive Director of Shepherd's House, helping hundreds of pastors and churches with their toughest counseling cases.Jim was intimately involved in 1987 when Shepherd's House conducted a careful review of why some people with the same level of trauma and treatment recovered but others did not. The results of this case-by-case study became The Life Model, a new recovery model. The Life Model study findings were published in Living from the Heart Jesus Gave You.

Today we're talking about the spiritual discipline of paying attention and awakening to God's love for you. Through this series on spiritual health, I want us – women of God and sisters in Christ – to be healthy and to shed who we are not and the false narratives that don't serve us well so we can live and move and have our being in freedom and grace.  I pray that we will lean – not into the discipline, for the discipline isn't the point –but that we would lean into the God who is actively shaping us and that we will learn to love who we are becoming.  In this episode, Anjuli shares: How to pay attention is different seasons How to let people in when you're terrified And what it looks like for Jesus to be with you Key Quotes “The way in which I was doing the spiritual disciplines was totally killing me inside.” - Author Anjuli Paschall “The thought of stopping and being alone in a cabin for three weeks terrified me. And what terrified me the most was being with myself.” - Author Anjuli Paschall “When we stay with ourselves, and we stay with God staying with us, that is the living water we are thirsty for.”- Author Anjuli Paschall “When we stop and open our hearts, it's messy.” - Author Anjuli Paschall “The invitation the Lord is giving you is to stay because that's where the Lord is. He is with you.” - Author Anjuli Paschall “The real hope with any discipline is to not get good at the discipline but to become wise and well in the thing you want to grow in.” - Author Anjuli Paschall “What do you see? When you look in the mirror and look at yourself, what's there?” - Author Anjuli Paschall “Paying attention is actually receiving the life you've been given.” - Author Anjuli Paschall “Paying attention looks like being really honest with myself and being really honest with others.” - Author Anjuli Paschall “Trust the journey Jesus has you on.” - Author Anjuli Paschall “The capacity for you to be vulnerable is dependent on the other person's capacity and your experience of their reliability.” - Author Anjuli Paschall “Now I care very little about someone perceiving me as a good mom. I care about being the mom my kids need.” - Author Anjuli Paschall “Parenting is a tender balance between love and freedom.” - Author Anjuli Paschall As Mentioned in the Podcast The FCC requires that I tell you that I'm an Amazon Affiliate, which means I earn a bit of commission on each sale. But don't worry, there's no added cost to you! #97: Spiritual Health: Studying the Bible with Amber Palmer #98: Spiritual Health: Praying to connect with the heart of Christ with Kimberly Coyle #99: Spiritual Health: Celebrating Sabbath with Mark Buchanan #100: Spiritual Health: Imitating Christ as we suffer with author K.J. Ramsey #101: Spiritual Health: Hearing from God for freedom with Jennifer Barnett #51: Delete + Reset: Body Image, Weight, Jean Size, and Jesus with Jami Amerine #53: Delete + Reset: Race, Racism, and Your Role in Racial Reconciliation with Dr. Lucretia Berry #55: Delete + Reset: Productivity, Exhaustion, and Balancing Your Passions with Christa Hutchins #57: Delete + Reset: Slowing down, releasing expectations, and creating an unhurried heart with Jennifer Dukes Lee #59: Delete + Reset: Navigating hard conversations with Esther Littlefield   About Anjuli Paschall Anjuli is the author of Stay and Awake.  She grew up encircled by an orange grove in San Diego. After graduating from Point Loma Nazarene University, she earned her master's degree in spiritual formation and soul care from Talbot Seminary. She currently lives in Southern California with her husband, Sam, and five children.  She is the founder of The Moms We Love Club and writes regularly for (in)courage.  Here's how to connect with Anjuli Awake book Stay book Instagram Spiritual direction courses Here's how to connect with Jill Website  GraceInRealLifePodcast.com  Instagram  Facebook group  Facebook page Subscribe to Jill's weekly “the good + the grace” email 

In this episode, Dr. Jim Wilder discusses topics and themes from his latest book Escaping Enemy Mode. It's an important discussion as we live in a world of increasing us vs. them mentality. Listen in and get inspired to refriend others and live a life with joy and attachment to God. Dr. Jim Wilder has been training leaders and counselors for over 30 years on five continents. Jim grew up in South America and is bilingual (English/Spanish). He is the author of nineteen books with a strong focus on maturity and relational skills. His coauthored book, Living from the Heart Jesus Gave You, has sold over 100,000 copies and is printed in eleven languages. Wilder has published numerous articles and developed four sets of video and relational leadership training. Dr. Wilder has served as a guest lecturer at Fuller Seminary, Biola, Talbot Seminary, Point Loma University, Montreat College, Tyndale Seminary and elsewhere.Dr. Jim Wilder has extensive clinical counseling experience and is the chief neurotheologian of Life Model Works, a nonprofit working at the intersection of theology and brain science.  Life Model Works builds on the fifty-year legacy of Shepherd's House, which began in the 1970s as a ministry to street kids in Van Nuys, California. In those early days, Jim worked with the team of volunteer counselors and Fuller Seminary faculty to build a counseling center to help broken people recover from negative habits, addictions, abuse, and trauma. By the 1990s, Jim was Assistant Director and later Executive Director of Shepherd's House, helping hundreds of pastors and churches with their toughest counseling cases.Jim's Recommendations:Becoming a Face of Grace by Ed KhouriBeyond Becoming by Ed KhouriConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook or Instagram at www.facebook.com/shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.instagram.com/shiftingculturepodcast/ Support the show

The word justice is often heard in the wider culture today, but what does justice actually mean? The Bible consistently shows us that our God is a God of justice. And moreover, Scripture tells us that, at its core, justice means caring for and meeting the deepest needs of the vulnerable in our communities -- the poor, the widow, the fatherless, and the foreigner. And sadly, there may be no more vulnerable group in our world right now than the millions of people, including many children, who live unprotected today from modern slavery, sex trafficking, and abuse. This Sunday, we are honored to have Dr. Eddie Byun as our guest preacher. Dr. Byun is the head of Talbot Seminary's Doctor of Ministry program, the author of a number of books, and the producer of an award-winning documentary about sex trafficking in Korea. Dr. Byun will help us to deepen our understanding of God's heart for justice, to discover the hard realities of modern slavery (locally and globally), and to discern where we as followers of Jesus can best join God to, Lord willing, see a decrease and maybe even an end to trafficking in our lifetimes.

Near-death experience guest 559 is Pastor Steve Kang. He is a former Buddhist who had a NDE in 1998. During his NDE experience he went to hell and he also heard the voice of Jesus. Pastor Steve Kang is married to Goeun and graduated from Talbot Seminary in 2008. He was saved from a near death accident in 1998 by the grace of God thru the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and has been serving as full-time and now bi-vocational pastor for the next generation for the past 20 years. He is called to make disciples and plant churches and bringing the lost back home as well. He works in IT and speaks regularly for the next generation on revival and discipleship. He is a former 1st LT USAR Chaplain and church planter with the Southern Baptist Convention. Pastor Steve's Website https://www.allnationsjc.org/about-1 --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/jeffrey-s-reynolds/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/jeffrey-s-reynolds/support

When in your life have you been the most awake? How people answer that question may surprise you. My guest today is Anjuli Paschall and we are talking about her latest book Awake: Paying Attention to What Matters Most in a World That's Pulling You Apart. What does it mean to live your life awake? According to Anjuli, a full life isn't found by chasing it--it's found by coming awake to it. You can experience an awakening to the life God has already given you. I know what Anjuli shares will encourage, inspire, and challenge you, so listen in while I have a chat with Anjuli Paschall. Fierce Calling is on the Spark Network, which can be found on the Edifi App! Fierce Calling is one of many Christian podcasts available on the Edifi app. To listen to this podcast and other amazing Christian podcasts, go to the Apple or Google Play stores and download the app today! You can also find amazing Christian podcasts on Access More! Favorite Quotes from Awakening to the Full Life God Has Already Given You "...being awake has nothing to do with what you achieve, accomplish or complete, but everything to do with connection to God, community, and others ...""When in your life have you been the most awake?" --Anjuli Paschall Connect with Anjuli and find out more about awakening to the full life God has already given you! You can connect with Anjuli at anjulipaschall.com grab her books mentioned in the show! Follow her on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lovealways.anjuli/ You can also connect with other moms who are blessing moms enduring long-term suffering at The Moms We Love Club Facebook community. Check out her posts over at (in)courage! Awake by Anjuli Paschall Anjuli Paschall Anjuli Paschall (www.anjulipaschall.com) is the author of Stay (Bethany House, 2020). She grew up encircled by an orange grove in San Diego. After graduating from Point Loma Nazarene University, she earned her master's degree in spiritual formation and soul care from Talbot Seminary. She currently lives in Southern California with her husband, Sam, and five children. She is the founder of The Moms We Love Club and writes regularly for (in)courage. You can find her every day on Instagram at @lovealways.anjuli. Connect with Doris! I'd love to hear how Fierce Calling has blessed you! Leave me a message on my contact page at dorisswift.com. Scroll down and grab my free resources, and when you do, you will also receive my free monthly newsletter with more encouragement! Love Fierce Calling? By following, rating, and leaving a review over at Podchaser, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts you can help others discover the show too! Do You Need a Speaker for Your Next Women's Event? Check out my speaking page, grab my flyer, and let's talk about me speaking at your next women's event... I love speaking God's truth into the lives of women! Free Gifts for You... Grab one of my free downloads by scrolling down to the bottom of the page! Love & God's Perfect Peace to You!

Michel Hendricks, author of 'The Other Half of Church,' is former pastor of spiritual formation at Flatirons Community Church in Lafayette, Colorado.  Over 25 years of teaching and training others has taken him all over the world. With a bachelor's degree in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science from the University of Colorado in Boulder, plus an MDiv degree from Denver Seminary, he has the credentials and resume to write and sell this book, and modern American Christians especially can be relied on to read it enthusiastically. His partner in that endeavor and others related, Dr. Jim Wilder has 30 years of experience, and is also a globetrotter. Growing up in South America, he's the author of nineteen books. One of them, a certain Living from the Heart Jesus Gave You, sold over 100,000 copies and is available in eleven languages. He's also lectured as a guest at Fuller Seminary, Biola, Talbot Seminary, Point Loma University, Montreat College, Tyndale Seminary, among others. But Wilder's extensive clinical counseling experience has led directly to his branding as "chief neurotheologian" at Life Model Works, a nonprofit self-described on the organization's website as residing "at the intersection of theology and brain science." And yesterday I finished reading Hendrick's and Wilder's collaborative work, 'The Other Half of Church.'  Let me confess from the start that I did not love this book, for reasons which need to be explained carefully and at some length. For starters, there is a certain cost-benefit analysis which seems not to have been done carefully enough, in my view, where combining the latest in brain science with tried and true Christian theology is concerned. What, for instance, will happen to all our overhauled theology when the brain science is updated? Will we need to revise our theology again, if we were too hasty and too extensive in transforming the renewing of our minds along the lines laid out here? So also, the term 'neurotheologian' makes me uncomfortable, and reminds me of transhumanism. I imagine the influential churchmen of 2000 years coming back as cyborgs, or us looking back on them with some mixture of pity and contempt because we suppose our ability to describe how and where the electrical signals travel in our heads has improved the Bible. Maybe this is excessively critical. If so, that's not my goal. But then we can see in the last few centuries since the Enlightenment too much of what goes wrong when we get carried away with our pursuit of the physical sciences, then let them shape and dictate our study of God and His Word. We do not have to confine ourselves to hypotheticals here, but we have many cautionary examples in recent enough memory. There are odd choices made in 'The Other Half of Church.' For instances, why coin a new term like 'neurotheologian' but use the Greek word 'hesed' throughout here? It's defined early on, yes. But by the end of the book, it's been used so often and in such a way that it feels downright gimmicky. But then the whole work feels a bit gimmicky, if I'm honest. The latest brain science seems put forward in a similar way to how Richard Dawkins used to argue against the existence of God by use of lengthy non-sequiturs about how much we know in the fields of microbiology and astrophysics. This feels like Christians trying to prove that we can do science too, therefore you should believe in Christ and read the Bible and love your neighbor accordingly. This feels backwards and foreign, I think, because neuroscience should get its legitimacy from our Christian faith based on God's Word, and not the other way around. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/garrett-ashley-mullet/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/garrett-ashley-mullet/support

Hey Friend! Today I'm excited to welcome my friend and author of five award-winning Bible studies, Jean E. Jones, on the show. Jean E. shares her journey of coming to Christ after being taught by her family that Jesus was not to be trusted. We explore the struggle with accepting God as your Father when you don't have a great relationship with your own earthly father, and Jean E offers great insight on what she did to overcome that gap. We also discuss how studying the Bible was a key in her personal and spiritual transformation and how studying the Bible can be part of your routine, too. Her story of redemption is just amazing!  Remember friends, you are loved! Xo, Donna   In today's episode, we discuss: When you have been led to believe that Jesus is a bad guy How to have a good relationship with your Heavenly Father when you don't have a great relationship with your earthly one.  Freeing advice for the person who isn't reading their Bible and how to start   Jean E. Jones enjoys writing Bible study guides that help people put God's words into action. Along with best-selling author Pam Farrel and popular artist Karla Dornacher, she wrote Discovering Good News in John (July 5, 2022), the ECPA finalist Discovering Jesus in the Old Testament (2019), Discovering Joy in Philippians (2019), and Discovering Hope in the Psalms (2017). Jean is a member of the Women in Apologetics (WIA) and the Advanced Writers and Speakers Association (AWSA). Besides writing, Jean speaks at conferences and women's events in both keynote and breakout sessions. She also was a contributing writer for Crosswalk.com and has written for Today's Christian Woman and Home Life. Additionally, she has served on women's ministry leadership teams for over 20 years. Jean E. Jones is happily married to her high school sweetheart, Clay, who teaches apologetics at Talbot Seminary. He's the author of Why Does God Allow Evil? and Immortal: How the Fear of Death Drives Us and What We Can Do About It.   Resources: For into on Jean E's Bible studies or to ask her any of your Bible questions, contact: www.jeanejones.net For a copy of “15 Things Jesus Would Say to You if You Met Him for Coffee,” go to www.donnajones.org/blog  Pick up a copy of Donna's book : Seek: A Woman's Guide to Meeting God  https://www.amazon.com/Seek-Womans-Guide-Meeting-God/dp/0800725328/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3QOGM9DLB01MK&keywords=seek+a+womans+guide&qid=1644959052&s=books&sprefix=Seek+a+woman%2Cstripbooks%2C190&sr=1-2   Connect with Jean E. Jones :  https://www.jeanejones.net/  Connect with Donna: Instagram: @donnaajones Website: www.donnajones.org Twitter:@donnajonesspeak Vimeo: @DonnaJones

In this episode of We Are Vineyard, Jay sits down with Dennis Liu to talk about his recent transition to lead pastor of Vineyard of Hope church, and some of the conversations and considerations unique to a leadership transition in an immigrant church. Dennis shares about the “silent exodus” of young people from immigrant churches, some of the cultural blessings and challenges, and some of his dreams for the Asian American church, particularly relating to worship. Dennis Liu is the leader of the Asian American Association for Vineyard USA and the lead pastor of Vineyard of Hope church in Walnut, CA (formerly known as Vineyard of Harvest). Having grown up in a Christian family in NJ, he feels extremely blessed with a rich Christian heritage. It was during his high school years that he began to sense that the Lord was calling him into full-time ministry. At the time, he ignored the call out of selfishness simply because he wanted to make a lot of money and become successful in the world's eyes. Subsequently, he enrolled at Cornell University in the fall of 1996 with the intention of going on to medical school upon graduation. The Lord continued to work on his heart through his college years, and the calling of full-time ministry didn't decrease but grew stronger. After college, the door opened up for him to come out to CA to minister after he graduated from college and to begin attending Fuller Theological Seminary. In May 2000, he headed out to CA and began to intern at Vineyard of Hope Church while pursuing a Master of Arts in Intercultural Studies at Fuller. Over time, the ministry grew, and he joined the staff of the church on a full-time basis as the minister to the English congregation. In June 2005, he graduated from Fuller, and in 2007, he was ordained as a pastor. In 2011, he married Evangeline, who graduated with a Master of Divinity from Talbot Seminary. They have two sons named Silas and Levi and a daughter named Jubilee. Dennis and Evangeline are excited about the future of this congregation and envision a church that plants many churches! Show Notes: Miracle Work by Jordan Seng Vineyard USA's recommended reading for May https://bit.ly/382EPdN Vineyard of Hope Church https://www.vineyardofhope.org

View the Hope in the Holy Land trailerhttps://hopeintheholyland.comhttps://www.graftedministries.comView the Promise Land trailerTodd's bio:Todd Morehead is the Founder and Director of Grafted Ministries and is from Southern California, where he lives with his wife and four children. He is a graduate of Talbot Seminary with a M.A. in Biblical & Theological Studies and has over twenty years of experience in ministry.Ever since Todd can remember, he's had a love for the Jewish people and the land of Israel. He became a believer at a very young age and with that decision, the love of Israel followed suit.In his earlier years, Todd worked for a couple different Christian organizations, but regardless of the task at hand, the Jewish people were always on his heart and mind. Wherever he went, it was as if he had a magnetic pull towards the Jewish people, which always led to new friendships. In his early twenties, Todd realized there was a problem; not all Christians share God's love for Israel and the Jewish people. Being convinced by the Scriptures that the Jews are not just another people group Christians can choose to cultivate a heart for, his vision sharpened and he began to laser in on helping Christians understand their role with God's chosen people. Grafted Ministries was birthed out of this focus.Whether it's the films or study guides he creates, or the Israel trips he leads—where he has been about thirty times, Todd's aim is to awaken Christians to God's purpose for them with the Jewish people.Photos by Justin Kron

Why are so many westerners embarrassed by miracle stories and doubt they still happen? That's the question that our guest Dr. J.P. Moreland is asking today. In his new book-"A Simple Guide to Experience Miracles" J.P. who is a distinguished professor of Philosophy at Talbot Seminary states that many Christians think anyone who talks about miracles is goofy and not living in the real world. Admittedly, there is a lot of "miracle abuse" and crazy claims out there that don't hold up, but as followers of Christ, our Savior told us in John 15:7 "If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish and it will be done for you?" Too many Christians are living like practical deists who take human reason over divine intervention and that's dangerous. Dr. Moreland and the Doyles share first hand inspirational miracle stories and you will be challenged to pray for God to move in power in your life! 

In this episode special guest host David Beavis speaks on the concept of homecoming. David serves as the junior high pastor at B4 Church in Beaverton, Oregon. He holds a masters in Theology from Talbot Seminary and is currently pursuing a doctorate of leadership in global perspectives from Portland Seminary. David and his wife Laura live in Hillsboro with their dog, Coava (named after their favorite Portland coffee).

Andrew Camp has an MA in Spiritual Formation and Soul Care from Talbot Seminary. He is also a professionally trained chef, most recently as the sous chef at Silver Restaurant in Park City, UT until it closed in 2015. Since then, he has served as the Spiritual Growth Pastor at Mountain Life Church in Park City. He and his wife, Claire, live just outside of Park City with their two young daughters, Hazelle and Hannah. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/everydaypastors/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/everydaypastors/support

Meet Todd Morehead. A competitive surfer, theologian (he received his MA in Biblical and Theological studies from Talbot Seminary), and film producer. Todd is tackling the hot-sided and complex issues of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Dr. Mark Alan Williams is a missionary, speaker, author, podcaster and blogger at markalanwilliams.net. In 2016 he founded Discipleship Journeys with Jesus which has a vision to disciple 100 million believers in actionable, biblical wisdom. He has traveled to 60 countries on 6 continents, sharing the Gospel and training leaders. Mark is a graduate of Moody Bible Institute, Biola University, Talbot Seminary and Fuller Seminary where he earned a Doctor of Ministry degree. He was named Alumnus of the Year by Moody Bible Institute in 2010. Mark & Carolyn were married in 1979 and have three sons. In our interview, Dr. Williams references a prayer that he prays most days to combat pride. This is the Humility Prayer from Andrew Murray book Humility: “Out of your great goodness Lord please make known to me and take away from my heart, every kind and form and degree of pride, whether it be from evil spirits, or my own corrupt nature; and please awaken in me the deepest depth and truth of that humility which can make me capable of Your light and Holy Spirit.” Visit djjministry.org & markalanwilliams.net to learn more. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/biblicalwisdompodcast/support

Clay Jones joins the podcast to discuss how evil and suffering can exist in a world where God exists. Clay is a visiting Scholar for the MA in Christian Apologetics program at Talbot Seminary and the chairman of the board of Ratio Christi, a university apologetics ministry. He holds a Doctor of Ministry from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He is also the author of the books, Why Does God Allow Evil? Compelling Answers to Life's Toughest Questions (Harvest House, 2017); Immortal: How the Fear of Death Drives Us and What We Can Do About It (Harvest House, 2020). Purchase Clay's books: https://clayjones.net/books-resources Partner with indie Thinker: https://deka.gives/indiethinker Follow Indie Thinker: Instagram @theindiethinker Facebook @theindiethink

Todd Morehead is the Co-Creator & Producer of the new film, "Hope In The Holy Land". Todd is a graduate from Talbot Seminary with a M.A. in Biblical & Theological Studies and the author of Grafted In: Understanding God’s Role for You and Your Jewish Neighbors. He has a passion for leading Christians to Israel—a country where he has visited over twenty-five times—to help instill God’s heart for both the people and the Land. The film “Hope In The Holy Land” is about Todd Morehead, an American Christian with a deep love for Israel, who sets off on a journey across the Holy Land to confront his indifference toward the Palestinians and to search for the deeper truths behind one of the most perplexing and polarizing conflicts in the world. Along the way, he discovers the painful struggles of Jews, Muslims and Christians on both sides of the conflict. The result is an enlightening journey that exposes viewers to perspectives rarely seen in the media, and a challenge to a man’s heart to love his enemy. Todd joins Mike to discuss the new film & the current events taking place in Israel.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Todd Morehead is the Co-Creator & Producer of the new film, "Hope In The Holy Land". Todd is a graduate from Talbot Seminary with a M.A. in Biblical & Theological Studies and the author of Grafted In: Understanding God’s Role for You and Your Jewish Neighbors. He has a passion for leading Christians to Israel—a country where he has visited over twenty-five times—to help instill God’s heart for both the people and the Land. The film “Hope In The Holy Land” is about Todd Morehead, an American Christian with a deep love for Israel, who sets off on a journey across the Holy Land to confront his indifference toward the Palestinians and to search for the deeper truths behind one of the most perplexing and polarizing conflicts in the world. Along the way, he discovers the painful struggles of Jews, Muslims and Christians on both sides of the conflict. The result is an enlightening journey that exposes viewers to perspectives rarely seen in the media, and a challenge to a man’s heart to love his enemy. Todd joins Mike to discuss the new film & the current events taking place in Israel. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We tend to make Christianity complicated. Our relationship with God can feel rigid or only surface-deep. This week my friend Anjuli talks to us about the gift of resistance. Paying attention to the things that you’re trying your best to ignore; the things that feel like the scary deep end of the pool. But what if that deep end part of your story was the way to true intimacy with your Creator? Anjuli Paschall is the founder of The Moms We Love Club and writes regularly for (in)courage, a widely followed online community of Christian women. She grew up encircled by an orange grove in San Diego. After graduating from Point Loma Nazarene University, she earned a master's degree in spiritual formation and soul care from Talbot Seminary. She currently lives in Southern California with her husband, Sam, and five children. Sam is a pastor at Mission Hills Church in San Marcos. They enjoy renovating their fixer-upper and spending weekends at the ocean. WHAT WE CHAT ABOUT: Anjuli’s Instagram transition and the struggle to actually be authentic vs. faking authenticity how vulnerability and growing her trust in God has reduced her mom guilt creating a genogram to help identify and break generational sins the importance of dealing with our own personal pain so that our kids don’t feel the need to try to fix it for us the gift of resistance - the deep end of your story is the way to true intimacy what it looks like to abide with God in your everyday life over complicating Christianity when all we need is the faith of a child the continued resistance Anjuli feels about being honest wrestling with the truth of God’s love for us building spiritual rhythms into your daily habits different phases of parenting happening simultaneously LINKS MENTIONED: Embracing Holland podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/embracing-holland/id1501288141) Stay Awake to Love course (https://www.anjulipaschall.com/courses) Poldark (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/shows/poldark/) Disclaimer: As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.  CONNECT WITH ANJULI: website (https://www.anjulipaschall.com/) | instagram (https://www.instagram.com/lovealways.anjuli/) | facebook (https://www.facebook.com/Anjuli-Paschall-100258001467923/) CONNECT WITH EMILY: website (https://momstrugglingwell.com/) | instagram (https://www.instagram.com/momstrugglingwell/) | facebook (https://www.facebook.com/momstrugglingwell/) | patreon (https://www.patreon.com/momstrugglingwell) EPISODE SPONSORS: Prose (https://prose.com/redeem?fbuy_ref_code=msw&utm_campaign=V2veritone&utm_medium=podcast&utm_source=msw) : take your free in-depth hair quiz and get 15% off your first order today when you visit prose.com/msw (https://prose.com/redeem?fbuy_ref_code=msw&utm_campaign=V2veritone&utm_medium=podcast&utm_source=msw) PlushCare (https://plushcare.com/msw/) : make your appointment today at plushcare.com/msw (https://plushcare.com/msw/) Jonas Paul Eyewear (https://jonaspauleyewear.com/pages/mom-struggling-well#erid4885585) : visit jonaspauleyewear.com/momstrugglingwell (https://jonaspauleyewear.com/pages/mom-struggling-well#erid4885585) for a discount code and you’ll get 15% off your next order SUPPORT THE SHOW: Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/momstrugglingwell)   SHARE THE STRUGGLE! If you've been encouraged, share this episode with a friend.  The struggle is real.  We might as well do this together! Do you love Mom Struggling Well? Please leave a review here (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-struggle-well-project/id1046121933?mt=2) !

Jean E. Jones is co-author of Discovering Jesus in the Old Testament, Discovering Joy in Philippians, and Discovering Hope in the Psalms. She blogs at jeanejones.net. Jean is a member of Women in Apologetics. She's been a contributing writer for Crosswalk.com and has published in Today's Christian Woman and Home Life. She's happily married to her high school sweetheart, Clay, an associate professor of Christian apologetics at Talbot Seminary. They live in Laguna Niguel, California, and once were foster parents to three preteen/teen girls. Jean enjoyed rooster claws and century eggs in Asia. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/biblicalwisdompodcast/support

Clay Jones holds a doctor of ministry degree from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and is an associate professor in the Master of Arts in Christian Apologetics Program at Talbot Seminary. Formerly, Clay hosted Contend for Truth, a nationally syndicated call-in, talk-radio program where he debated professors, radio talk show hosts, cultists, religious leaders, and representatives from animal rights, abortion rights, gay rights, and atheist organizations. Clay was the CEO of Simon Greenleaf University (now Trinity Law and Graduate Schools) and was on the pastoral staff of two large churches. Clay is the Chairman of the Board of the university apologetics ministry Ratio Christi, is a contributing writer for the Christian Research Journal and specializes in issues related to why God allows evil. You can read his blog at clayjones.net, find him on Facebook, and follow him on Twitter at ClayBJones. Clay has authored Why Does God Allow Evil?: Compelling Answers for Life's Toughest Questions and the forthcoming Immortal: How the Fear of Death Drives Us and What to Do About It. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/biblicalwisdompodcast/support

Dr. Mark Alan Williams is a missionary, speaker, author, podcaster and blogger at markalanwilliams.net. In 2016 he founded Discipleship Journeys with Jesus which has a vision to disciple 100 million believers in actionable, biblical wisdom. He has traveled to 60 countries on 6 continents, sharing the Gospel and training leaders. Mark is a graduate of Moody Bible Institute, Biola University, Talbot Seminary and Fuller Seminary where he earned a Doctor of Ministry degree. He was named Alumnus of the Year by Moody Bible Institute in 2010. Mark & Carolyn were married in 1979 and have three sons. In our interview, Dr. Williams references a prayer that he prays most days to combat pride. This is the Humility Prayer from Andrew Murray book Humility: “Out of your great goodness Lord please make known to me and take away from my heart, every kind and form and degree of pride, whether it be from evil spirits, or my own corrupt nature; and please awaken in me the deepest depth and truth of that humility which can make me capable of Your light and Holy Spirit.” Visit djjministry.org & markalanwilliams.net to learn more. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/biblicalwisdompodcast/support

Jean E. Jones is co-author of Discovering Jesus in the Old Testament, Discovering Joy in Philippians, and Discovering Hope in the Psalms. She blogs at jeanejones.net. Jean is a member of Women in Apologetics. She's been a contributing writer for Crosswalk.com and has published in Today's Christian Woman and Home Life. She's happily married to her high school sweetheart, Clay, an associate professor of Christian apologetics at Talbot Seminary. They live in Laguna Niguel, California, and once were foster parents to three preteen/teen girls. Jean enjoyed rooster claws and century eggs in Asia. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/biblicalwisdompodcast/support

013 The Other Half of Church (whole-brained Christianity)Jim Wilder, Michel Hendricks - The Other Half of Church[with a shout out to Bob Howey]You can buy the book here on Amazon and Life Model WorksJohn Loppnow invites Jim Wilder and Michel Hendricks to discuss the amazing ideas in their new book THE OTHER HALF OF CHURCH: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation.Topics covered include* Half-Brained Christianity* How do people grow?The 4 Soils* JOY: The face of Jesus that transforms* Hesed: Our relational glue* Group Identity: What kind of people are we?* Healthy Correction: Stop being so niceWe also discuss the important role of a true elder in the body of Christ (Bob Howie) and how he instigated the formation of this book. Hear the stories and learn how our character transforms.Shout out to Bob Howey for being an elder who creates these connections.https://renovare.org/people/bob-howeyFROM THE WEBSITEWhat does brain science have to do with spiritual growth?After a lifetime following Christ and a career as a spiritual formation pastor, Michel Hendricks was disappointed: why does spiritual transformation seem fleeting? And why do Christian communities often seem shallow? That’s when he met neurotheologian Jim Wilder and discovered what’s been missing from his church community and spiritual life. The Other Half of Church invites you to join Jim Wilder and Michel and revolutionize your spiritual growth by understanding how the brain works. Learn the roles of the brain’s left and right sides and how they’re both critical to experience lasting, full-brain transformation. You’ll then learn the four ingredients necessary to develop and maintain a vibrant, transformational community:- TRUE JOY FOUND THROUGH CONNECTION AND RELATIONSHIPS- HESED LOVE OF SECURELY ATTACHED COMMUNITIES- WELL-DEVELOPED GROUP IDENTITY BASED ON THE CHARACTER OF CHRIST- A CULTURE OF UPLIFTING, HEALTHY CORRECTIONMEET THE AUTHORS Jim Wilder (Ph.D., Clinical Psychology, and MA Theology, Fuller Theological Seminary) has been training leaders and counselors for over 40 years and is the author of eighteen books. He served as executive director of Shepherd’s House Inc. and founder of Life Model Works. Dr. Wilder has extensive clinical counseling experience and has served as a guest lecturer at institutions such as Fuller Seminary, Biola University, and Talbot Seminary.Michel Hendricks (MDiv, Denver Seminary; BS, University of Colorado) has been a teacher and trainer for more than twenty-five years. He is the former pastor of spiritual formation at Flatirons Community Church in Lafayette, CO. He has also served and trained people in Argentina, Bolivia, Mexico, Kenya, South Sudan, and Uganda. He is the author of Basic Training for Walking with Jesus and Intentional Apprenticeship. He and his wife, Claudia, have three adult children.www.PresenceAndPractice.com

Clay Jones holds a doctor of ministry degree from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and is an associate professor in the Master of Arts in Christian Apologetics Program at Talbot Seminary. Formerly, Clay hosted Contend for Truth, a nationally syndicated call-in, talk-radio program where he debated professors, radio talk show hosts, cultists, religious leaders, and representatives from animal rights, abortion rights, gay rights, and atheist organizations. Clay was the CEO of Simon Greenleaf University (now Trinity Law and Graduate Schools) and was on the pastoral staff of two large churches. Clay is the Chairman of the Board of the university apologetics ministry Ratio Christi, is a contributing writer for the Christian Research Journal and specializes in issues related to why God allows evil. You can read his blog at clayjones.net, find him on Facebook, and follow him on Twitter at ClayBJones. Clay has authored Why Does God Allow Evil?: Compelling Answers for Life's Toughest Questions and the forthcoming Immortal: How the Fear of Death Drives Us and What to Do About It. Consider supporting us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thebiblicalwisdompodcast Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/BiblicalWisdom1 --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/biblicalwisdompodcast/support

My guest for The Happy Hour # 303 is Anjuli Paschall. After graduating from Point Loma Nazarene University, Anjuli earned her master’s degree in spiritual formation and soul care from Talbot Seminary. She currently lives in Southern California with her husband and their five children. Anjuli is the founder of The Moms We Love Club and writes regularly for (in)Courage. Her first book, Stay: Discovering Grace, Freedom, and Wholeness, Where You Never Imagined Looking released in March 2020. Friends, getting to talk with Anjuli was such a treat! In this episode, we chat about everything from homeschooling kids and the surprising effects of COVID-19 on our family dynamics to navigating friendship as adults and sitting with difficult emotions, whether that is how we see ourselves in motherhood or the fear of allowing ourselves to truly be seen by those around us. Anjuli also dives into the difficulty and beauty of slowing down and getting to know yourself in place without producing anything. I love when she says, “We’ll never be able to know the love of God in our heart until we’re able to go into our heart. We wonder about that disconnect -- ‘Why do I know God loves me, but I don’t feel God loves me?’ -- it’s because you have to know your heart...so pay attention to the [difficult emotions] you’re resistant to.” Y’all, so good!! To read more of Anjuli’s words, be sure to check out her book, Stay.

Clay Jones is an associate professor of Christian Apologetics at Talbot Seminary, Biola University. Seth and Nirva interview Dr. Jones on his book, Why Does God Allow Evil?. Clay Jones Website Clay Jones on Twitter Clay Jones on Facebook Why Does God Allow Evil? by Clay Jones Immortal: How the Fear of Death Drives Us and What We Can Do About It Access the Bonus Q&A on Patreon Show Sponsor Learn more about Impact 360 Institute (https://www.impact360institute.org) and their apologetic videos and resources for students and young adults. Purchase an online course and use the promo code FREEMIND to get $25 off! Visit: impact360.org (https://www.impact360institute.org) Freemind Patreon Support Freemind with a monthly donation on our Patreon page (https://www.patreon.com/freemindfm) and gain access to bonus episodes, interviews, and more! Visit patreon.com/freemindfm (https://www.patreon.com/freemindfm) to join today. Social Media Links Seth and Nirva's Website (http://sethandnirva.com) Seth and Nirva on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYqnbFT37k3tz_86ZwIelNw) Seth and Nirva on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/sethandnirva/) Seth and Nirva on Twitter (https://twitter.com/sethandnirva) Stephen Robles on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/stephenrobles/) Stephen Robles on Twitter (https://twitter.com/stephenrobles) Apologetics and Philosophy Resources Reasonable Faith (https://www.reasonablefaith.org) J.P. Moreland Website (http://www.jpmoreland.com) Ravi Zacharias Ministries (https://www.rzim.org) Stand To Reason (https://www.str.org) Impact 360 Institute (https://www.impact360institute.org) Science & Religion Reasonable Faith (https://www.reasonablefaith.org) Discovery Institute (https://www.discovery.org) John Lennox (http://www.johnlennox.org) Reasons To Believe (https://www.reasons.org) Answers In Genesis (https://answersingenesis.org) BioLogos (https://biologos.org) Politics and Culture Os Guiness (http://www.osguinness.com) Prager U (https://www.prageru.com) Discovery Institute (https://www.discovery.org) Wayne Grudem (http://www.waynegrudem.com/politics-according-to-the-bible/) Eric Metaxas (http://ericmetaxas.com) LGBTQ Joe Dallas (https://joedallas.com) Christopher Yuan (https://christopheryuan.com) Can You Be Gay and Christian? By Dr. Michael Brown (https://askdrbrown.myshopify.com/collections/books-1/products/can-you-be-gay-and-christian-responding-with-love-and-truth-to-questions-about-homosexuality) Outlasting The Gay Revolution By Dr. Michael Brown (https://askdrbrown.myshopify.com/collections/books-1/products/outlasting-the-gay-revolution) Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill (https://www.amazon.com/Washed-Waiting-Reflections-Faithfulness-Homosexuality/dp/0310534194/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_img_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EJVGF8TVDZ8QYSYGBM67) Special Guest: Clay Jones.

009Jim Wilder is our friend and mentor and one of the people we've learned a tremendous amount from over the years. This book is life altering. I encourage you to pick it up today.Jim and John sharing in conversation about his new book. We had a lot of fun talking, sharing and discussing the ideas.Renovated: God, Dallas Willard, and the Church That TransformsJim's hope and dreams for the bookWhy loving our enemies is the litmus test for our apprenticeship to JesusWhat is enemy mode?What does it mean to have God speak to us? And, what it doesn't mean.The book proposes that 1) Salvation is about attachment and uses the human attachment system to grow a new identity 2) We can experience mutual mind with God 3) Mutual mind without attachment will not change characterThis conversation will also be released on our YouTube channel.I'm hoping someone would want to list the topics and time stamps we discuss them on Youtube. If you are interested please let me know.He is the neurotheologian of Life Model Works.Dr. Jim Wilder (Ph.D., Clinical Psychology, and M.A. Theology, Fuller Theological Seminary) has been training leaders and counselors for over 27 years on five continents. He is the author of multiple books with a strong focus on maturing and relationship skills for leaders. His coauthored book Living From the Heart Jesus Gave You has sold over 100,000 copies and is printed in eleven languages. Wilder has published numerous articles and developed four sets of video and relational leadership training called THRIVE. He is the founder and chief neurotheologian of Life Model Work, a nonprofit working at the intersection of brain science and theology that is building contagiously healthy Christian communities through equipping existing networks with the skills to thrive. Dr. Wilder has extensive counseling experience and has served as a guest lecturer at Fuller Seminary, Biola, Talbot Seminary, Point Loma University, Montreat College, Tyndale Seminary and elsewhere.BIBLE APP with writing from Jim WilderI'm reading the @YouVersion plan '12 Ways God Loves You: Practices That Form Strong Attachments To God And God’s People'. Check it out here:http://bible.com/r/52kVIDEO Jim introduces Dallas from the conference (story told in the book)https://lifemodelworks.org/renovated/...To Listen to the Podcast go herehttps://www.presenceandpractice.com/

Critical Theory and Social Justice are significant topics in apologetics these days. Our special guest for this podcast is Dr. R. Scott Smith from Biola University and Talbot Seminary.  Scott is a professor of Philosophy and Apologetics and an expert in these fields. This podcast is the complete interview which aired on the Cultivating Ethos Show on March 16-19, 2020.  To learn more about Dr. Scott Smith, visit http://rscottsmithphd.com Please consider a tax-deductible gift at RadioChurch.org. Also, join us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cultivatingethos Thank you for listening to the Cultivating Ethos Show with Pastor Scott Furrow.  

Part Four: Critical Theory and Social Justice are significant topics in apologetics these days. Our special guest for this podcast is Dr. R. Scott Smith from Biola University and Talbot Seminary.  Scott is a professor of Philosophy and Apologetics and an expert in these fields. Plus Scott Furrow boos the Astros. To learn more about Dr. Scott Smith, visit http://rscottsmithphd.com Please consider a tax-deductible gift at RadioChurch.org. Also, join us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cultivatingethos Thank you for listening to the Cultivating Ethos Show with Pastor Scott Furrow.

Part Three: Critical Theory and Social Justice are significant topics in apologetics these days. Our special guest for this podcast is Dr. R. Scott Smith from Biola University and Talbot Seminary.  Scott is a professor of Philosophy and Apologetics and an expert in these fields. Plus Scott Furrow rigs the Primary. To learn more about Dr. Scott Smith, visit http://rscottsmithphd.com Please consider a tax-deductible gift at RadioChurch.org. Also, join us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cultivatingethos Thank you for listening to the Cultivating Ethos Show with Pastor Scott Furrow.

Part Deux: Critical Theory and Social Justice are significant topics in apologetics these days. Our special guest for this podcast is Dr. R. Scott Smith from Biola University and Talbot Seminary.  Scott is a professor of Philosophy and Apologetics and an expert in these fields.  Plus Scott Furrow becomes an influential Irish Party Planner. To learn more about Dr. Scott Smith, visit http://rscottsmithphd.com Please consider a tax-deductible gift at RadioChurch.org. Also, join us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cultivatingethos Thank you for listening to the Cultivating Ethos Show with Pastor Scott Furrow.

Critical Theory and Social Justice are significant topics in apologetics these days. Our special guest for this podcast is Dr. R. Scott Smith from Biola University and Talbot Seminary.  Scott is a professor of Philosophy and Apologetics and an expert in these fields.  Plus Scott Furrow gets into the Hall of Fame. To learn more about Dr. Scott Smith, visit http://rscottsmithphd.com Please consider a tax-deductible gift at RadioChurch.org. Also, join us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cultivatingethos Thank you for listening to the Cultivating Ethos Show with Pastor Scott Furrow.

Why does God allow evil and suffering into our lives? Is there a purpose in it? If so, what is God accomplishing through allowing suffering into our lives? These are the questions that our Special Guest, Dr. Clay Jones of Talbot Seminary, is going to answer for us. Make sure to check out Dr. Jones books and blogs on his website: clayjones.net Make sure to join our Insiders Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/christculturecoffeeinsiders/

This month's group talk podcast features an insightful discussion regarding the book "The Art of Gathering: How We Meet and Why it Matters" by Priya Parker. Host Carolyn Taketa joins joins special guests Nick Lenzi (Dinner Group Director) & Andrew Camp (Former chef) to discuss the art of gathering.   Andrew Camp is currently the Spiritual Growth Pastor at Mountain Life Church in Park City, UT, where he has served since 2016. Previously, he worked as a professional chef. Andrew has a masters degree in spiritual formation and soul care from Talbot Seminary. He is also a blogger for the Small Group Network. Nick Lenzi: Nick is the Dinner Group Director at Hoboken Grace Community Church in Hoboken, NJ. He is a former Wall Street financial analyst. Nick currently serves as the Small Group Network Finance Director and his team prayerfully seeks to increase our financial resources so we can equip more small group point leaders in building biblical communities all over the world. He is also the Mid-Atlantic Regional Leader for the Small Group Network. Just click the play button at the top of this post to enjoy this insightful discussion! To subscribe to our Group Talk Podcast, click HERE Grow as a leader, strengthen your team & accelerate the health & growth of your small group ministry by attending one of our “Accelerate!” Small Group Workshops! For more info & to lock in =EARLY BIRD RATES click HERE!

On average, each of us has 8 to 15 people, whom God has supernaturally and strategically placed in our relational world so that He might use us to both demonstrate and discuss faith. The Greeks used one word to describe this personal world—OIKOS, or “extended household.” OIKOS is not an evangelism program. It's not an event. It's not an emphasis. The oikos principle is the heartbeat of Christ's Church. Jesus designed it, modeled it and taught us how to use it. Since then, it's been instrumental in bringing 95% of believers into the body of Christ. Tom Mercer has not only experienced the oikos principle firsthand, he has committed his life to helping the church understand and utilize this incredibly simple yet effective strategy for changing a world that just might be smaller than you think! Tom has been married to his wife Sheryl for thirty-seven years, and they have been blessed with three married children, who have in turn blessed us with the greatest core oikos imaginable—nine grandchildren. Tom received his formal education at Biola University and Talbot Seminary. He has been the Senior Pastor and primary teacher at the High Desert Church in Victorville, California since 1984. During that time, HDC has grown from 125 regular participants to over 12,000; from one campus to four. He has authored two books, 8 to 15: The World Is Smaller Than You Think and Common Sense Is the New Brilliance. These books highlight the oikos principle, which Tom believes is the simplest and most effective form of Kingdom growth that Jesus gave us.

Pastor Wilson is off on vacation, because I guess running a church is super stressful or something. Anyways Mark Saucy from Talbot Seminary is here to continue our look at Matthew.

Myron Heavin Graduated from Purdue University in 1962 with a BSAE degree in Aeronautical Engineering. He left Indiana and came to California to work on the Saturn IV rocket engine for Rocketdyne.       He later worked designing commercial and military airplanes for Douglas/McDonnell Douglas/Boeing as companies gobbled up other companies.   He retired from Boeing Airplane Company after  50 years.      Myron is married to his wife Sharyl, and they have 3 children and 4 grand-children.      Myron received his MA degree in Biblical and Theological Studies from Talbot Seminary in 2008 and is currently enrolled in a MA degree program in Christian Apologetics (lifelong learning).  While taking a full-time course load at Talbot, he also worked full-time at Boeing, while leading 7 simultaneous Bible Studies.      Myron has been interested in both Theology and Science, and regularly takes Bible Students on field trips to try to to Palomar observatory, JPL, Griffith Observatory etc. 

Welcome back to Season 1, Episode 8 of the Convene Podcast. Where do you start with the whole conversation around faith and the workplace? What are the foundations of the theology of work for busy CEOs? What are the first steps to understanding this? Helen M. Mitchell is a speaker, author and consultant to business leaders and pastors. Helen was the architect that led 2,000 people into workplace small groups at Saddleback Church and is currently the Director of the Center for Faith Work and Economics at Talbot Seminary and Biola University. She leads the church strategy for Convene bridging the church to the marketplace.

This week, The Peppers are chatting with a dynamic duo that they know you will love! Michelle + Kelly DLux are fellow love enthusiasts, and the husband / wife team behind a new photo series called Creative Marriages. We are so excited to introduce you to two of our favorite friends, and can't wait to have them share the heart behind their own search for Great Love. In this episode, we talk about taking an intentional approach to a weekly sabbath, what it means to balance social media with being an attentive spouse, and how interracial relationships can be the cause of both blessings and challenges. The Peppers AND The Dluxes would LOVE to hang with you over the upcoming weeks, so join us for the Creative Marriages gallery showing on Sunday, February 14th and get excited for the Great Love Getaway coming up in April! QUICK BITES: Having an altar-ego keeps things spicy... It can also keep away they identity thieves. In case you’re curious, here is the 90’s throwback coca-cola commercial that inspired Kelly's personal brand. Check out Kelly and some of his hot DJ moves right here. Michelle decides to embrace the Dlux handle after reading Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. Hear the story behind how Gerard and Jessie became The Peppers, and you'll also get some background on Gerard’s corresponding break-down. Kelly + Michelle tell us how the idea for a #DLUXSABBATH came to be... Follow along with the hashtag in order to live vicariously through their weekly adventures! They recently visited the Rancho Bernardo Winery and filled a random Monday with taste-testing and hot tubbing and traipsing around in the rain with friends. Find Michelle on snapchat by searching the username: michellekphoto Find Kelly on Periscope by searching the username: @kelly_dlux Jessie’s snapchat is styleandpepper and our collective Periscope handle is @meetthepeppers! In Episode 9, we talked about our own struggles with social media. (So glad to know we're not alone.) Having an interracial relationship has provided the Dluxes with both challenges and blessings, but their efforts to convey grace (no matter what) is so inspiring! Michelle shares honestly about feeling like her wedding doesn't always match up to what she’s exposed to in her day to day business. TRIGGER QuestionS: Does your partner have any major fears that you've learned to accept? How do you and your partner prioritize rest together? What would your own version of a #dluxsabbath look like? Do you believe in the concept of having one singular soul mate on the entire planet? More Dlux Details: Kelly is the owner of the DJ/MC company Dlux Entertainment, and is currently pursuing his masters degree in Apologetics at Talbot Seminary. Michelle is a wedding and portrait photographer who you may also recognize as a former Nickelodeon star (on Ned's Declassifed School Survival Guide). They both love exploring Southern CA and volunteering their time on the leadership team at Emmaus Church in Santa Ana. Say hello to Michelle + Kelly on Instagram: @creativemarriages @michellekimphoto @kellydlux @dLUXent @kelly_dlux @streetphotoist @roamingnatives @broamingnatives Don't forget to leave us a review on iTunes, sign up for our mailing list and send us a tweet if you have something to share while you listen!

"Religion, Morals, and Manners: The Spiritual, Social, and Aesthetic Formation of Jane Austen's Clergymen-Heroes" Professor Natasha Duquette, English Department at Biola and Fred Duquette, Talbot Seminary, present this lively lecture on masculine spiritual and moral development in Austen’s novels. Professor Cheri Larsen Hoeckley, English Department and Gender Studies Program at Westmont, offers a brief response.

What would 100 years of prayer and worship look like? How would it impact the people in it and the people that were touched by it? Over 300 hundred years ago, in Herrnhut Germany, a prayer meeting started and didn't end until 100 years later! Are there tangible things we can take from what they encountered and experienced?Matthew Lilley talks with Jason Hubbard about the stories of revival and how it impacted the world around them. Matthew and Jason were in Herrnhut this past Spring celebrating the 300 year anniversary. You will be encouraged and strengthened as you enjoy this episode of The Jesus Movement Podcast.  Jason is the Campus Pastor and Adjunct professor at Arizona Christian University and executive director of Light of the World Prayer Center. Jason worked as the Associate Pastor of Prayer and Bible at Christ the King Church (3500 members) in Bellingham, WA for 10 years (2000-2010). He completed his Doctorate in Discipleship in 2013 at Talbot Seminary.  You can learn about their prayer strategy and some of the amazing testimonies of transformation in a short 12-minute video: The Whatcom Story: Waves of Glory.Get Jason's book “Moravian Miracle: The 100 Year Prayer Meeting That Changed the World”Visit Light of the World Prayer CenterGive to ATD to support the podcast - https://awakenthedawn.com/giveJoin Revive School - https://www.reviveschool.comHost a tent event in your city with Tent America - https://awakenthedawn.com/tent-america