Podcasts about mason so

Google trends expert Christina Basilio joins the Mason Paine show to discuss the most in demand and trending items for the holiday season. Christina also discusses how to use various Google tools to help with your shopping. For the latest trends from Google visit: Trends.Google.com/TrendsFollow Twitter on Google at: Twitter.com/GoogleLike Google on Facebook at: Facebook.com/GoogleLike and Follow Google on Instagram at: Instagram.com/Google https://75dc83.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/16.-Christina-Basilio-Holiday-Trending-Items-on-Google.mp3 Google Holiday Trends Transcription 00:00 – Announcer: Mason Vera Paine. 00:01 – Mason: Holiday season is upon us and to find out what are some of the hottest gifts that are in demand, as well as how to use various Google tools to alleviate your troubles, joining us is Google trends expert Christina Basilio. Thanks for joining me, Christina. 00:14 – Christina: Hi, it's so great to be here. 00:15 – Mason: So to top off first, I got to know, what are the top gifts trending for the holiday so far? 00:21 – Christina: Yeah. Based on a search trend we've been seeing through the year, we've been able to identify about a hundred gifts and ideas. For me, I'm looking for something fun, unique, and maybe a little nostalgic. So some things that stood out to me on the list were things like our engraved necklaces. Purchases for that are up about 5,000 %, as well as lab-grown diamond tennis bracelets, so economically sourced diamonds, folks are looking at. And the beauty space, things like claw clips to pull your hair back, those are making a resurgence this year. On the electronics front, we're seeing things like headsets are really of interest. So either gamer headsets with a mic on them or even sleep headphones for people that are trying to maybe get a more restful sleep. We've been seeing stuff like that pop up. 1:07 – Mason: I'm a little bit curious about the keyword Choiceage. So when going through the apparel and accessories, I noticed that one of the things that was trending was target cozy sneakers. Why use the word cozy? Why not just word like, slippers? 1:22 – Christina: Yeah. So what we're seeing is seeing the search trend for things like flippers. They always spike in December. So if I had to guess, it's because people are trying to stay warm this holiday. And what are fun words that people think of? And I think cozy is probably one of them. 1:36 – Mason: Okay, that's fair enough. When it comes to the searches, what's driving the holiday sales? Is it like deep discounts or special promotions? 1:45 – Christina: So I think it's probably a mix of both, right? So we get the list of things that people are really looking for. But what we also see is people come to Google to find things like deals. So maybe they want the big ticket item but they don't want to spend full price. Something that we're able to help people do if they're looking to save a little bit of money is if they Google shop deals, they'll be taken to a special landing page that will give them millions of items that are on sale right now. So they can search through the different categories and find things from their favorite brands like Target or Under Armor so that they can save.Some money. 2:17 – Mason: Now, would it be smarter to use broad terms instead of specific terms, such as if I wanted to get shoes, I would just type in shoe deals instead of specified Nike deals. 2:29 – Christina: So the great is that you can do whatever feels most comfortable. So the way that I think about it is if you're looking for a specific thing, you can search for that specific item or that specific brand. Or if you're looking for something to the starting place, you can type in something like shoes. Can I share one of my favorite hacks, though? 2:47 – Mason: Yeah, sure. 2:48 – Christina: Okay, so I don't know if you've heard of Google Lens, but with Google Lens,

The Small Business Administration is an invaluable resource for those seeking to launch their own business; but many are unaware of how exactly it can help you. Region Five Administrator, Geri Sanchez Aglipay; gives insights on the Small Business Administration and how it can help you. For information about the services SBA provides, visit: SBA.govLike the SBA on Twitter at: Twitter.com/SBAgovLike and Follow on SBA on Facebook at: Facebook.com/SBAgov https://75dc83.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/12.-Geri-Sanchez-Aglipay-SBA.mp3 Mason Vera Paine and Geri Aglipay: SBA Transcription 00:00 – Announcer: Mason Vera Paine.  00:01 – Mason: When it comes to entrepreneurship, many people don't know what resources are available to them and how to utilize them. One of those resources is the Small Business Administration or the SBA. Joining me to speak about this organization is Region 5 Administrator Geri Sanchez Aglipay. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me, Geri. 00:19 - Geri Aglipay: Good to be here. Thank you for having me. 00:22 – Mason: So tell me, prior to joining the SBA, what did you do? 00:25 - Geri Aglipay: I was at a national nonprofit organization where I oversaw field work and policy work for small business and economic development for the Midwest region, but also nationwide for women's entrepreneurship as well. 00:40 – Mason: Wow. So this sounds like it's a passion for you. 00:43 - Geri Aglipay: Building wealth and addressing financial insecurity and increasing prosperity is something that is not only a professional interest, but it's a personal interest and passion as well. 00:54 – Mason: Was there anything in particular that led you to the SBA, though? 00:58 - Geri Aglipay: What led me to the SBA was they were long time colleagues of mine with the federal government. And for a number of years, I had seen what good government does with the SBA field offices. And that's who I've been most familiar with working with, the SBA district offices. And working with them, not only for on the ground work, doing outreach to women and those who are traditionally socio economically disadvantaged, so to speak, really gave me such high regard for my colleagues who I were working with alongside all these years. When the pandemic hit, it was the SBA that I turned to because they were the ones who actually were supporting those small business owners who weren't prepared with so many of the financial aid and pandemic relief. I turned to them and I said, Hey, the business owners need our help. Can we do more regular partnerships? W e actually worked together before I was at the SBA and did a lot of outreach about how to navigate the pandemic and how to survive it and what are the free, no cost resources so anybody can get help what they need. 2:05 – Mason: Now, it's funny about the SBA. I know that that is a program that anybody can join, but it wasn't very well known, I think, before the pandemic. Do you think during the pandemic there was more light shed on those programs? 2:17 - Geri Aglipay: Absolutely. I mean, the Small Business Administration as a federal agency has been around for 70 years since President Eisenhower established it. He established it because he knew, which many economists and now people know more since the SBA became well known during the pandemic, is that small businesses are the backbone of our economy. They are giants of economy as Minister Guzman says. They create two thirds of the job. They also are 40 % of our economic productivity. I think for the SBA, it may not have been as well known before, but after the pandemic, we were the only federal agency, well actually, lender in the world to provide relief to its borrowers where in six months, they did not have to pay the principal, the fees, or interest on their current loans. The SBA is there to establish the level of the field to make sure that people who wanted to be an entrepreneur and had a sm...

From the Meta Gala, NBA to Adulting find out what exactly people were searching for in the month of May on Google with Google Trends expert Bailey Tomson. For the latest trends from Google visit: Trends.Google.com/TrendsFollow Twitter on Google at: Twitter.com/GoogleLike Google on Facebook at: Facebook.com/GoogleLike and Follow Google on Instagram at: Instagram.com/Google  https://75dc83.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/9.-Baily-T-May-GT.mp3 Google Trends May Transcription 00:00 – Announcer: Mason Vera Paine. 00:02 – Mason: Baily Tomson, Google Trends expert, joins me to share the top search for May in entertainment, culture, science, odd news, sports, and food. Thanks for joining me, Baily. 00:11 – Baily: Thanks for having me. 00:13 – Mason: So in May, what was the biggest trending thing that was happening? 00:18 – Baily: There was a lot happening in May. We had the Met Gala at the beginning of the month, Cinco de Mayo on May 5. Overall, the month celebrates Asian Pacific American heritage. So a lot of busy things. There's also NBA playoff. I feel like we've been talking about basketball since forever with March Madness. Now we get into the playoff. So all over the place. I thought something that was a bit atypical and pretty cool was tipping culture. So the term tipping culture has been searched at a 15 year high and it's doubled over the past year in the US, folks searching for should I tip and wondering... There's a lot of whys around tipping. Why do restaurants add gratuity for large parties? Why does America tip so much? So tipping was my... Wasn't expecting it was the curve ball. 1:05 – Mason: Yeah, that one's a little weird, but I'm not going to lie, I'm questioning it myself. I'm picking up my own orders, so I feel like, why am I tipping you? 1:15 – Baily: I agree. That was actually, there were over the five top questions around asking for tips, the why is something asking for tips. Number five is why are fast food restaurants asking for tips, which I can only... I'm sure fast casual is also in there. I'm with you. It was a bit of that trend that was quite validating. 1:33 – Mason: Yeah, you know what it is? During the pandemic, I was giving everybody tips. I was Oprah of tipping. You get a tip and you get a tip. I was like, I'm going to help everybody. And now I'm broke. I'm like, You need to pay me a tip now. 1:48 – Baily: Yeah, I'm going to walk into the restaurant to get my food so I don't have to tip now. 1:54 – Mason: Exactly. Now, something that I think we talked about last month with... And we're talking again this month, Met Gala. I mean, how much are we going to talk about this? Doja Cat, we already know she was telling everyone, which I thought was the cutest thing ever and it was hilarious. And who's the guy that was in the first suit? It's going to kill me. Jared Leto. Oh, I knew his name. 2:18 – Baily: Yes. He was also Doja Cat and Jared Leto were the top searched women and men, respectively. I think it were the cat suits. I think people were really intrigued. They did something a little different than we usually see on the red carpet of Met Gala. 2:33 – Mason: Well, I think there wasn't a lot you could do. So I think they were trying to be as creative as possible, which I think it worked out. I really think if I had to rate them, Doja Cat won. I just really liked the face costume. I thought that was a lot. And then she stuck to it by meowing to everybody. So I'm like, Dude, she was in character. She looked really good. I love the dress. I think she went the whole 10 yards.   3:02 – Baily: I completely agree. And then just leaning into the fact that she's Doja Cat, it just was like the full brand was all there. 3:09 – Mason: Oh, that's so true. Doja Cat, how silly of me. I didn't get the pun. Now, another thing that happened in May is a Cinco de Mayo. And my mom actually went and celebrated something called Mole de Mayo.

 Discover the perfect growth strategy just for YOU– and it's not what you think it is Find out why getting and getting more agency relationships isn't the answer to your problems Learn why you should set your goals and objectives first before the tactics and strategies Resources/Links: Want to know more practical growth strategies you can do? Click here: mojomedialabs.com/abm Summary Do you want to learn what the right and effective growth strategy is that fits you and your business? Getting more agencies isn't the answer to your growth crisis. Establishing a clear goal and aligning it between your departments will put you one step closer to the answer. Mason Cosby serves as the lead for Business Development at Gravity Global. He ensures Gravity is constantly optimizing our marketing efforts, practicing what we preach to our clients, and making it easy for B2B organizations to create predictable revenue growth. Listen in to what Mason has to say on how you can find the best B2B growth strategies that guarantee ultimate and promising results that will leave you in shock! Check out these episode highlights: 02:17 - Mason's ideal client: So our ideal client, as you might imagine would be, predominantly B2B, complex clients that are often on a more global scale. 02:58 - The problem he helps solve: At the core, especially as marketing is rapidly evolving, you likely need to partner with some kind of outsourced agency that can help provide some level of innovation. So if B2B organizations on a global scale are looking to partner with an agency for innovation purposes, they really got three options. 04:08 - The symptoms of the problem: So I would say if you've got, obviously, an absurd number of agency relationships. So yeah, I think 20 plus. At that point, if you've got 20 agent relationships, there's a likelihood that you have spread yourself too thin. 05:23 - Clients' common mistakes before consulting Mason: So realistically, everything that we've talked about thus far is essential, our agency and our value. But as far as mistakes from an actual tactical, practical marketing perspective, what most people think is, realistically, they are very tactically focused. 06:39 - Mason's Valuable Free Action (VFA): I think one of the best pieces of advice is when you are making out your marketing goals, specifically, also look at obviously, again, business level objectives, but also sales goals. 07:35 - Mason's Valuable Free Resource (VFR): Want to know more practical growth strategies you can do? Click here: mojomedialabs.com/abm 08:15 - Q: What is Dracula's favorite marketing strategy? A: A count-based marketing. Tweetable Takeaways from this Episode: “Don't think tactic first, think the goal first. And then, actually, have clear objectives across customer acquisition, pipeline acceleration, and customer expansion.” -Mason CosbyClick To Tweet Transcript (Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast) Tom Poland 00:10 Greetings, everyone, and a warm welcome to another edition of Marketing the Invisible. I'm Tom Poland beaming out to on the coast of the Sunshine Coast, in fact, in Queensland, Australia, joined today by Mason Cosby in a very different part of the world. Mason, g'day. Sir, a warm welcome from Down Under. Where are you hanging out? Mason Cosby 00:25 I am hanging out in Indianapolis and I was hoping you would say "Good day" because that is my favorite thing whenever I hop on calls with my friends in Australia. Tom Poland 00:32 I can do one better. I can go, "G'day, mate!" Mason Cosby 00:35 There we go. Tom Poland 00:36 Let's throw another shrimp on the barbie and get a cold one. You've been watching too many Crocodile Dundee movies,

Description: In this episode of the Be the Bridge Podcast, Dr. Eric Mason joins Latasha for a deep conversation surrounding deconstruction, biblical literacy, and racial reconciliation. This episode is full of biblical wisdom and cultural insight. Dr. Mason also gives great recommendations for resources you will want to get and listen to. Host & Executive Producer - Latasha Morrison Senior Producer - Lauren C. Brown Producer, Editor & Music By - Travon Potts Transcriber - Sarah Connatser Quotes: “The Gospel restores all people's dignity. It makes us fully in the image of God through being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.” -Dr. Mason "In the era of misinformation, in the era of information memes and urban legends, biblical literacy is a must. We cannot assume that people understand the faith." -Dr. Mason “Urban Apologetics is not just for Black people. This is for Christians. These are books that our white brothers and sisters should be getting and teaching from also.” -Tasha “The devil always over promises and under delivers.” -Dr. Mason “So if repetition exegetically is a sign of biblical emphasis, then we need to emphasize what God emphasizes. And if Jesus pulls justice as a hermeneutical lens to use in interpreting the Bible, we should.” -Dr. Mason “Justice is a reflection of God's character.” -Dr. Mason “You can't be a Christian and not deal with justice. It's unchristian to ignore justice.” -Dr. Mason “Can you imagine having to answer to Jesus that you left a church because the pastor was calling you to value a person because they weren't treated justly?” -Dr. Mason “You will know racial reconciliation is happening in your church when white people can submit to Black people.” -Dr. Mason “I think that it's very important that there be a racial IQ growth in the body of Christ.” -Dr. Mason Links: Dr. Eric Mason: https://www.pastoremase.com/ Epiphany Fellowship: https://www.epiphanyfellowship.org/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC76WVwO_8jULaF3i0oVJF0g Lands of the Bible Cruise 2022 with Dr. Eric Mason, Dr. Bryan Loritts, Pastor Albert Tate, and Lecrae: http://www.eo.travelwithus.com/tours/pf22101622c58465#eotours LISTEN & SUBSCRIBE Podcast link: https://podlink.to/BeTheBridgeSocial handles/links: Instagram: @LatashaMorrisonTwitter: @LatashaMorrisonFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/LatashaMMorrison/Official Hashtag: #bethebridge Be The Bridge Podcast Survey https://forms.gle/CtssQibbH9Ct7Qdx6 --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

There were many noteworthy moments at this year’s Hiring Success conference, including a series of on-site podcast interviews with some of the best and brightest minds in talent acquisition. They’ll be released over the next couple of months, starting with this episode. Episode 10 features a discussion with Gareth Flynn. He is the managing director of TQ solutions, an advisory and solutions firm for talent acquisition, recruitment, and careers related projects; the co-founder and director of The Career Conversation—a company specializing in digital micro learning and lifelong career development; and a technology advisor and mentor with Udder— a team of experienced recruitment, talent and HR technology specialists. Gareth traveled all the way from Melbourne, Australia to San Francisco for Hire 20. Our discussion begins with his general take on the conference and why it’s a unique experience for someone who works in talent acquisition outside of the US. Other topics discussed include the talent shortage as a global phenomenon, micro learning and career development, the increasing importance of creative skills in the modern workforce, and the ways in which technology can actually make us more human. Episode Transcript Mason: Hey everybody. Thank you for tuning in. It's hard to believe, but it's already been over two weeks since we wrapped up the Hiring Success conference. There were many noteworthy moments, but what made the conference memorable for me was the opportunity to sit down and talk with some of the sharpest minds in talent acquisition. The interviews we recorded will be released over the next couple of months and we'll start today with the conversation I had with Gareth Flynn, who traveled all the way from Melbourne, Australia to San Francisco for the conference. Gareth is the managing director of TQ Solutions, an advisory, and solutions firm for talent acquisition recruitment and careers related projects. He's also the co-founder and director of The Career Conversation, a company specializing in digital microlearning and lifelong career development. He's a man of many hats and brings a wealth of experience and knowledge to the table. Having traveled such a long distance, I was curious to hear about Gareth's impression of the conference and to see what topics in recruiting and talent acquisition are top of mind for someone from the down under. The discussion that followed is one that you're sure to appreciate. Enjoy. Mason: Gareth, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. Gareth: Pleasure, nice to be here Mason. Mason: So you've come, you’ve traveled quite a long way to join us at Hiring Success. Just sort of initially, what's your impression of the conference? Gareth: Yeah, traveled halfway around the world. So yeah, definitely a long haul flight but really worthwhile, the conference has been really insightful. You know, one of the reasons I came was to hear what's going on in the US particularly. We’re often asked in Asia Pacific you know, what are the big US companies doing what can we learn from the US. I sometimes get a

In today's podcast Mason chats to Jeff Chilton. Jeff has been working in the medicinal mushroom industry since 1973 and is an absolute specialist in his field. Jeff is the founder of Nammex, the leading supplier of organic mushroom extracts in the world today. With over 40 years of mushroom growing experience, Jeff was one of the first people to bring mushroom extracts to the North American market. All you medicinal mushroom nerds out there make sure you catch this episode, Jeff is a deep reservoir of knowledge and insight!   The gents wax lyrical over: The ins and outs of mushroom harvesting. The difference between products made from mushroom mycelium as opposed to their fruiting body.  Cordyceps Cs-4. The inferior nature of grain grown medicinal mushroom products. The nature of the medicinal mushroom industry at large, and what to look out for in regards to quality and authenticity. Following your passion in business. Retaining your integrity in the mushroom industry. Polysaccharides and betaglucans. China as a superior source Who is Jeff Chilton ?   Resources  Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify and Soundcloud!   Check Out The Transcript Here: Time to talk tonic herbalism people. Maybe some medicinal mushrooms and philosophy for longevity, so pour yourself a tonic and get ready to get super human, baby. Let's start the show!   Mason: Hello everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. Got one that, I've been really looking forward to doing this interview. Jeff Chilton, I'll go into a little breakdown now, rather than just jumping ahead to why I'm really into his work. He's been in the mushroom industry since 1973. When it comes to mushroom cultivation, back then, he was really pioneering. Especially, a lot of the mushrooms that we have available today via cultivation in the west.   Mason: He had a lot to do with the developing the manufacturing of those. Then in 1989, switched over to the manufacturing of medicinal mushroom extract, so he's OG in this medicinal mushroom world. There was no real trending back then. And I, like him, we met two years ago at a herbal symposium in Oregon. That's when I really ... super aware of him and just how he was just via just his own integrity and just educating the market.   Mason: He became this internal watchdog of the industry. Just in the sense of just calling out real bad practices that are going on in the medicinal mushroom industry, and still today, and educating people, so you can spot a product on the market which is telling fibs, and really doesn't have the good stuff that we have all come to know and love about medicinal mushrooms.   Mason: So NAMMEX is his company, also Real Mushrooms, and I love the fact that we can sit down as colleagues, offering medicinal mushrooms, having more at it from the Taoist perspective and Jeff just rocking gin that specialization of mushrooms and especially being such an originator of the entire industry. I really love to be able to sit down, talk with him and ask him about the history, especially he's really been shining in educating people about the difference between growing medicinal mushrooms on wood and on mycelium. And we dive into nuances of that.   Mason: Basically we talk about the industry and we talk about setting up relationships in China and just how amazing it is to be able to source really incredible, the most high quality mushrooms that you're gonna be able to get in the world outside of a wild cultivated situation. Where we are talking about medicinal qualities. Getting those from China and being able to educate people about the beauty of getting them from China. We talk a little bit about that.   Mason: Also what it's taken for us to develop the relationships with growers and farmers and so I think you'll find it really interesting hearing me from 2011, Jeff from 1989 really navigating the difference in our stories. As well we go into organic because Jeff has pioneered in getting the first certified organic mushroom supplement in the US which is really amazing. We go a little bit into that, I share my two cents on where I see organic is at. More so the reason why I like Jeff is because he's not like most companies that just think the be all and end all is paying for this little sticker, jumping through a couple of hurdles and getting the sticker on your product.   Mason: But what we call going beyond organic. And Jeff does that with the organic certification and I share my two cents on where I'm at with that whole thing. But mostly just how much I love that he's non-stop out there educating people. Not just trying to flog a product, not just trying to grow this crazy big business. But I think that's kind of inevitably happening, it's just a nice slow growth of a business. Because it has a lot of trust and it has a lot of consistency in its messaging. And we talk a lot about that and have a lot of laughs and get a couple of stories about the history of the mushroom kingdom and those mushroom people back in the day. We talk about mushroom conferences and a bunch of other things. I think you'll really enjoy it, I hope as much as I did, here's Jeff Chilton from NAMMAX.   Mason: Jeff, thanks for joining me, man.   Jeff: Hey Mason, thanks a lot for having me.   Mason: Absolute pleasure, so remind me where are you again in the world?   Jeff: I am in British Columbia, Canada. I like on Vancouver Island out on the West Coast. You and I are actually connected by the Pacific Ocean.   Mason: Vancouver Island especially, for some reason that just keeps on calling in. I keep on having friends, awesome friends and now you. You're waiting there. And I'm like "What is the pull?"   Jeff: Yeah. You have gotta come. Definitely come in our summer time because otherwise you'll just be hit by all of those things you don't like, which is rain and all the rest.   Mason: Well, it brings mushrooms, yeah?   Jeff: It's true.   Mason: When is it really on for you there? What months is it on for mushroom harvesting?   Jeff: Mushroom season is really going strong in October. First couple weeks in November still happening but then things cool off too much then it slows down and there's nothing happening. We get rains in August, which really primes things then in the last couple weeks in September we could see things starting to pop up.   Mason: All right, I love it. October, that sounds good to me. Let's dive in a little bit because we met maybe we were chatting it must've been two years ago.   Jeff: At the American Herbalist Guild Conference in Oregon, which was just awesome.   Mason: That was amazing, I mean, we were in Silverton? Is that right?   Jeff: Silverton, exactly, yeah, that's where we were.   Mason: But apparently not the witch one. No, I think that's on the other side. Tony was looking at Silverton but that's where all the witches were.   Jeff: Oh, ah   Mason: That's a different Silverton. I can't remember the name of the hotel but their grounds rolling in and the ginkgo trees, big ginkgo trees as well lining it. And then all the herbalists who came and did their herb walks were just frothing at how much they were able to go and show everyone how to forage, how to identify. Because the array of herbs there was incredible. That place is designed.   Jeff: It was absolutely designed. It was a huge property and they put in all sorts of different plants, herbs and different kinds of trees. It was a beautiful venue there are a great place to have that. Even on the Saturday night when they had a band playing and everybody was dancing. I had a great time.   Mason: That's so good, yeah. I imagine that place gets a lot of herbal symposiums going through it. And man, the best thing, the fig tree was kicking. Did you get up there and face on the fig then, during that symposium? That was the best part of it. Right next to the pine.   Jeff: Oh my goodness, no. I hardly had a chance to get outside which is back to my place where I was staying on the grounds and then down to the venue. But I was locked into my booth most of the time and talking to people. And then in the evenings it was nice. It was a fun thing. And I know you said you had a chance to get to hear Christopher Hobbs while you were there. That had to have been really great because I always enjoy seeing Chris. I know he was really busy in fact, funny thing was Chris told me, he said "God, I'm sorry I didn't spend more time with you. I ran into an old girlfriend."   Mason: Oh, right, I'm happy for him.   Jeff: Me too.   Mason: You're like, 100%, I can't contend with that. So '86 Hobbs wrote the book. Were you aware when his book 'Medicinal Mushrooms' came out, because when was NAMMAX first created?   Jeff: I started the business in 1989. I'm trying to remember whether I knew Chris at that point in time or not, but he was part of the whole herbal industry, so to speak, and Herbalist Guild and all of that back then. I wasn't nearly as much in touch with herbalists until I started my company. Before that it was just pretty much just mushroom people and all the people that were in the mushroom world over here. There are a lot of them. Mushrooms really happening. Long before the herbal industry figured it out and got wind of it.Chris was one of the first because he was an herbalist but also was interested in fungi. So that was really cool.   Mason: Yeah, I think he studied and formally became a mycologist as well.   Jeff: Well, no, he was a botanist, definitely a trained botanist and a history orf botany in his family. Herbalists and things like that. And now he went on and he got a PhD in molecular genetics.   Mason: Okay, he's going down that route. I like that book because he was really able to balance the mystical aspects of the mushroom herbal kingdom especially and then dive deep down into the science. It's something that only him and Steven Hardliner. Steven is the master at going down deep, molecular how a particular compound is interacting with a particular viral passade. And then blowing into full throttle Earth poetry in the next paragraph. It's a real gift. Going back to the 80s, you were running with the mushroom clique in America. Yeah, tell us the story.   Jeff: The thing was in the 70s... Well, first of all in the late 60s magic mushrooms were really great interest. That was one of the things that I was really studying at university. I had this interested in mushrooms in the 60s and I reading all about a man named Gordon Wasson. Are you familiar with Gordon Wasson?   Mason: Just the name and loosely, but not really.   Jeff: Yeah, so Gord Wasson was a New York banker with a Russian wife. He learned about mushrooms being used deep in the mountains of Mexico by Curanderez and went down there in the 50s and spent the next five summers down there. He classified a whole bunch of different psilocybes during that period because he took a French mycologist with him. And so, five summers. But he basically opened up this whole world of Look! Still today after thousands of years there are people in the world that are still using these psychoactive mushrooms in their healing practices. Man, that was a mindblower.   Jeff: So I was reading Watson and other people that were involved in that and they had published these books that were incredible books. I mean Watson went on to publish a book called 'Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality.' He published that in 1968.   Jeff: Then somebody came along a man named John Allegro came and published a book called 'Sacred Mushroom and the Cross,' which talked about mushrooms in early Christianity. So, Mason, listen, think about it for a second. In 1968 two books are published. One says that a mushroom is at the root of Christianity. The other one says a mushroom is at the root of the Hindu religion.   Jeff: And then all of a sudden from there it just... You get going forward and you find that mushrooms, you see symbols of them and you start to hear stories about them used through all sorts of different groups throughout history. Pre-history actually, because as that came out people started looking and discovering this. That was really part of my study in university because I was studying anthropology. And mycology on the side.   Jeff: Going into the 70s in Olympia, Washington where I lived and worked on this big mushroom farm there was a whole core of people that were interested in mushrooms. It was an amazing group of people. Paul Stamos is one of those people. Ultimately he and I wrote the book called 'The Mushroom Cultivator' in 1983. We even had a group. We had four people, Paul and I and two other people, where we had four different mushroom conferences. These conferences were so ... You would have enjoyed it so much. We had people there that were speaking about how to identify mushrooms. I was speaking on cultivation of mushrooms, speaking on the anthropological aspect of mushrooms. We had great people there speaking. There was Andre Wyle was at our conferences. And it was just a great time had by everybody, right? You can imagine. All these mushroom people coming together. 200 people coming together for a weekend. Amazing.   Mason: So good. I mean, it's different, you got this original crew, there's always something special when you've got the original crew.   Jeff: Yeah.   Mason: There's a medicinal mushroom symposium every year that moves around the world. It was in Colombia a couple of years ago and then in Italy. Do you know that one?   Jeff: You're actually talking about the International Medicinal Mushroom --   Mason: Conference?   Jeff: Society IMMS and you know what? And that was more of a scientific group that was formed much later. I know the principles of the group. It started somewhere around 1999. They're having a conference in China on the 18th of September this year. You should come. I'm gonna be over there at this conference. I know lots of other people are gonna be there as well. It's gonna be an interesting time. I'm gonna be giving a paper there, which will be fun. There will be lots of other people too. I don't know what time of year you go to China.   Mason: Yeah, I go in September. I think this year we've got our staff retreat in September. I'm gonna check the dates, but otherwise I've been wanting to get along anyway. I've been trying to revolve it around going to Wudang mountain and doing some Taoist training as well. This is where I've been tossing up this year, what time to get over there. But that sounds a bit serendipitous.   Jeff: Yeah, well, the conference is I believe the 18th to the 22nd of September. That's normally kind of early for us. We like to go over more in November. We go every year. November's really harvest time for a lot of mushrooms like Shiitake, Maitaki, Wood ear. A little bit later is Hericium, Lion's mane. In September it's the Reishi harvest.   Mason: Yeah, Reishi harvest is normally for us in September. Where's your Lion's mane growing? Which region?   Jeff: It's growing in Fujian province.   Mason: Okay. Ours is a little bit earlier, in September as well. In Heilongjiang. In the northeast.   Jeff: Okay, yeah, because in Fujian province it is late, late November when it's quite cold. It's back to the mountains, quite cold. Maybe up in Heilongjiang it's colder in there right?   Mason: It's chilly.   Jeff: (laughs)   Mason: That's spoken like a true Australian.   Jeff: Let's fly in and start up north there and step off. I just can't wait to get to Yunan province.   Mason: (laughs)   Jeff: I can't wait to get down into that tropical vibe. Although, nothing beats that crisp air.   Jeff: Well that's good. I'm at that point where -- I don't know when your periods of this business growth have been -- but I've been real head down, bum up in the business. Not really been in that space of upgrading my information. Of course, I'm always reading and everything, doing all these things. I feel like that's like, you're at a point in your business where you are traveling around and you're educated. You're back at that point where you're free to go and educate and then go and educate yourself non-stop, constantly, which is really nice. I'm nearly back there.   Jeff: Yeah, you know what it's like. We are so swamped right now. We've got so much demand for the product right now. We're growing and over the past two years we've hired four people, two people for lab and another person for regulatory and, can you imagine, we've got one person that's strictly regulatory affairs and deals with all the paperwork that we have to deal with. The paperwork is really monumental. We get forms from companies that are 220 questions!   Mason: Companies that you're doing business with and they wanna know, looking at purity or is it you getting stocked with them that they want all those questions answered?   Jeff: No, they qualify their suppliers. And so this is all about GMPs for the most part and how your product is manufactured. They want to know that everything is according to the GMP, quality, and the standard operating procedures and all the rest.   Mason: I think that's where Real Mushrooms. Was it your son that created Real Mushrooms?   Jeff: Real Mushrooms, yeah. Sky created Real Mushrooms in 2015 as part of NAMMAX so it's just one division of the company. He runs Real Mushrooms as well as other things because he's in training to allow me to go fishing and he can stay and do all the work.   Mason: Great. NAMMAX is providing more providing bulk for people that are putting it into products and stuff?   Jeff: We're a business to business. We sell the raw materials and then Real Mushrooms is retail products and mostly sold online. Maybe getting it into the stores at some point, but right now an online business. But we're business to business where we sell to companies that then put the raw materials out under their own brand.   Mason: Does NAMMAX do... I'm increasingly aware because I think NAMMAX... we get a lot of people asking at SuperFeast but we don't really specialize in that B2B space. But one thing I want to talk a little bit about later is a lot of people who, like NAMMAX has bridged it and made it really accessible. Especially with you and the middlemen not having to deal straight with trying to... I'm still appreciating, it took me quite a few years but you'd know the in's and out's beyond what it's like developing relationships, critiquing, getting the authenticity on the testing. Also developing a relationship based on integrity and qualifying on that level takes so long. I feel like NAMMAX has really made it possible.   Mason: I know a lot of people in Australia who are like "Ah, great, I can just go and NAMMAX can just do it all for me." Which is really great, because there's a lot of people. I like it because there's a lot of people jumping onto the bandwagon, and Australia has got this nice buffer. We don't have too much shit here, which is really good. And that's something that's nice for me to be able to say about my competitors as well. Australian community doesn't need to be as wary, I think, as the U.S. world because the U.S. is a bit...I didn't realize it's a shit fight. I know talking to you a lot back in the day, I don't think I presented that I was from SuperFeast. We were just talking about mushrooms and I was just learning a bunch off you and learning about your history.   Mason: As a company when I started out it was an absolute no-brainer that we weren't gonna use fillers, that I wasn't going to be using mycelium product myself. We'll talk about that, it has its place. Of course, growing on good-quality wood. In Australia we're just small companies. I started in Mum's spare room getting products for me and Mum. Then talking to you I was like... and then reading your blogs and really falling off the back of it just like that. Wow, because you actually really inspired me after that talk going, "Well of course, I do talk about the fact that we don't use fillers and we don't grow on grains." And all these kinds of things, but it was getting to that point I didn't realize people really needed to know the in's and out's of your product and be able to ...   Mason: After seeing what happened in America with how much trickery there is and the percentages of polysaccharides there is, lets' go into it a little bit now. You've been watching it and been the internal watchdog of the industry, which I really like. When did that first start cropping up? When did people start jumping on the mushroom bandwagon and fibbing about the levels of polysaccharides and active ingredients?   Jeff: The interesting thing was that having been in the supplement industry since 1989, the key thing for me was that I was a mushroom grower by trade. So i spent ten years as a commercial mushroom grower on a very big, big farm. Not a hobbyist growing in my basement or a closet or something like this. A commercial mushroom grower, large farm. Millions of pounds of mushrooms every year. So I knew how it all worked, I knew the economics of it all. I realized back in the late 90s, for example. Or even the early 90s that you couldn't actually produce mushrooms in North America and turn them into a supplement, because it's a dry powder it's not a fresh product. Once you dry that thing out it's 90% water you gonna get ten times as much money for that pound of mushrooms. It doesn't work in the supplement world.   Jeff: That's where going to China and I went to farms, I went to factories, I went to research institutes, I went to conferences. The 90s was just amazing to see what was going on. I went north to south, east to west. Yunan province all the way up to Jilin province. It was all over China seeing this industry and seeing the research. One of the things, you talked a bit earlier about quality how do you know. Here I am visiting these companies going to all of these conferences. I'm having people coming up to me all the time saying, "Will you buy my product? Here it is." And they just show me a brown powder and I'm just like, it's a brown powder, I don't know what it is! How can I really know what that is. And then getting to know companies and people that were genuine and you could go to their factories and see what they were doing. Especially if they were only producing mushroom products and then building the relationships to that.   Jeff: Then I turned around and back in the United States here are these companies that come along and they start to produce mycelium on sterile grain. The worst part about it is they sell it as a mushroom.   Mason: Some people might not know what, so, we're talking about the fact, which you alluded to, which I completely agree with, that the only way to make a viable super high-quality product that's a powder is doing it in China. Based on the fact that, say you have 10 or 20 kilos worth of raw product that's gonna then give you a kilo of the powdered product in the end, it's not viable in the U.S. so to make it viable in the U.S., the way it generally works is that it's grown on a grain substrate, like rice, brown rice, oats, this kind of thing.   Jeff: Yeah, and the thing is, what people need to understand is that a mushroom is just one part of this fungal organism. So the other parts would be a spore, the spore germinates in to a fine filament, those filaments come together, they create mycelium, which is the actual body of the fungus. Which normally if you're out there hunting mushrooms you never see that because it's in the ground or it's in the wood. So most people are unaware of that. But that mycelial network amasses nutrients. When the conditions are right it produces the mushroom. That's what we see because up it comes and it's like "Wow, look at that thing there!" And then that matures, it produces spores, and then we have a complete life cycle.   Jeff: The interesting part, Mason, is that growing mycelium, which is the vegetative part of this organism, on sterile grain as a mushroom grower, what that is and what that was developed as mushroom spawn. Which is like the seed that is used to grow mushrooms. Because mushrooms don't have seeds they have spores. You don't plant spores when you grow mushrooms, you plant live mycelium. The mushroom growing world, what they developed is "Okay, we'll take that live mycelium and we'll put it onto some kind of a carrier. Then that carrier we can spread into our compost or whatever it was that they're growing their mushrooms in. If you take a gallon of grain, you've got maybe thousands of grains in there you coat that with mycelium, and then you take those thousands of grains and you can mix them into a big pile of straw or compost or something. Each one of those mycelium grows off of and it grows into this thing. So that myceliated grain actually was developed in the 1930s as mushroom spawn or essentially seed to grow mushroom.   Jeff: It's an easy process, it's done in a lab and people in the United States, we can't grow mushrooms. Why don't we just take that process, we'll grow out the mycelium. Mycelium in and of itself it's got beneficial properties because it is a fungal hyphae that has beta glucans in its cell walls. If you grow it in a certain way like in liquid or something it can produce certain medicinal compounds. But when you grow it on grain and then you don't separate it out from the grain at the end of the process you end up with mostly grain powder. That's what companies started to do. They started to grow the mycelium on grain. At the end of the process they would dry it -- just like you're drying a mushroom, but -- they'd dry it, they would grind it to a powder. No mushroom there at all. No mushroom, it's just myceliated grain, and it's mostly the grain powder. Finally, the worst part about it is then they call it mushroom when they sell it.   Mason: I definitely know I've been surprised, because my first trip to the States I went and bought all the different brands. I was floored by some of the grainy non-mushroom powder that I was buying. That was like white powder, it's in your face.   Jeff: Yeah, white powder and you taste it and you're like, "How's it supposed to taste like mushroom? It tastes kind of like flour."   Mason: Yeah, it's like flour, sawdust. So are there companies doing a mycelial growth that are more on the ethical spectrum, that they're not doing a full grain wash and that they're growing on a particular grain that they're able to separate out a lot of the mycelium? I know that a lot of the mycelium is embodied grain. That's just a reality that you're not gonna be able to get rid of. But I'm trying to play that... is that possible in your experience?   Jeff: In China they grow mycelium in large tanks of liquid.   Mason: Like Cs-4 Cordycep, yeah.   Jeff: Yeah, Cs-4 Cordyceps. They've been doing that for 50 years. But the thing is that it takes a lot of money to put in a big facility that can grow and these tanks are huge and you have to have a steam generator. It's a big investment but to actually grow out the mycelium on sterilized grain does not take a lot of money, it doesn't take a lot of expertise. It's a very simple process. Anybody can do it. In my book that I published in 1983, it tells you how to manufacture mycelium on grain at home in your kitchen. It's not difficult so it's very easy and ultimately, the stuff is so cheap to produce. And these people are selling it as mushroom and making a fortune doing it. It's really immoral in my opinion, and unethical. And especially if you're calling it mushroom.   Mason: I think because we sometimes maybe look at the market and what we subconsciously are looking for when we want a mushroom and most of the studies have been on if you're like... Most of the time we're looking for a fruiting body. That's the mushroom. It's the unspoken that we know that we're talking about is the fruiting body there? And I guess there are some companies that have been quite averse or trying to sign typically validate the mycelium. When I was first kicking around all this there were people going "Look, just have it all. Have the fruiting body, have the mycelium, have all these..." and I very quickly, before I had a company was like "Mmm, no." I'm not in this to justify a particular aspect of the market or go for ease. I'm in it personally, and especially in the beginning, being a dreadful romantic, trying to connect to a herbal system, particularly Taoist tonic herbalism for me.   Jeff: Exactly. The people who grow those products and they say "Oh, we want to have all parts of this. We want to have the spore, we want to have the mushroom, we want to have the mycelium." It's like they say "It's full spectrum." Well, the problem is that they leave out the fact that (A) there is no mushroom in it, and (B) the grain! How can it be a full spectrum product if they've got all of this grain in the product? That's what they don't like to talk about. They don't like to talk about the fact that it's mostly grain and all of this other stuff about "Oh, you know, the fruit body's in there and the spore's in there." Absolutely not. It's really a lot of smoke and mirrors.   Jeff: That's what's so hard to take is that when there are people out there actually espousing that and claiming that they've got a full spectrum product when in fact it doesn't take much in the way of analysis to prove what they do and they don't have. We've run analysis and what's really interesting is if you analyze it, for example, with a proximate analysis, which is proteins, carbohydrates, fats, ash, minerals. Those products line up perfectly with the grain they're grown on.   Mason: Are there exceptions to that?   Jeff: No. All of these products and there, it's the myceliated grain products. If it's grown on brown rice it lines up with brown rice. If it's grown on oats it lines up with oats. Literally the two lines run together. The way I like to think about it too is I talk to people and I tell them what they're growing is tempeh. And they say what tempeh is, it is cooked soybeans with fungal mycelium grown on it. If you look at that tempeh and it's all white that's the mycelium but if you look at tempeh and you cut it open you can see it's mostly the soybeans. And if you were to dry it out, look, Mason, mycelium is 90% water. Just like a mushroom. The soybeans are 50% water. When you dry that tempeh out the mycelium just goes "Fffft!" Just tell me, where's the mycelium? And you've got all of these dried soybeans and you're like, well, it's mostly dried soybeans, that product.   Mason: I'm sure you get it a lot as well. Yours, there's obviously a few brands in the U.S. becoming more aware of the others. I didn't go looking for them but as you move into a market. SuperFeast, I spoke to you about it the other day. We've got so many people ... like [inaudible 00:29:50] story. I've realized in business a lot of the time it's like, same with you, I like the people. I like the unique stories. People are like "Bring SuperFeast over, there's no one doing that like what you're doing over there!" I like, yeah.   Jeff: (laughs)   Mason: And it's the same. When you're upfront about the nuances although there's a lot of companies doing medicinal mushrooms like yourself and Taoist herbs like us, medicinal mushrooms. There's nuances there and the sourcing and there's nuances in the story. What I like is, which is going to get to the polysaccharide claim, and the full spectrum claim for the people growing the mycelium. Because people are in an egoic, competitive make money mentality a lot of the time. They think they have to be everything to everyone. Versus just being very upfront. I'm always quite upfront, I don't really look at that. I don't try and standardize color or anything in any way. I don't try and standardize the constituents. I don't even sell on the percentages of constituents. I don't focus on it. I'll move more in that direction because more and more people want to be satiated. I can say yes, we test for percentages of the active ingredients to ensure that they're in alignment with the Chinese cornucopia and ensure that they're actually active. And all that kind of stuff.   Mason: But going over into the States now and hearing about all these other brands and I'm with you whenever it's growing on grain I can't get behind it. Not to be disrespectful, and I'm always trying to be really amicable in my talks. There's a place for it, but less and less can I find that place.   Jeff: And I understand what you're saying too because if a person is genuine. For example the herbalists, who are at an American Herbal AHG conference. These are people that want to provide good products, they want to provide a body of knowledge to help people. That's who you wanna be, that's who I wanna be. I'm not in this to make a lot of money. I'm not in this to build some big company and go Oh, gee, isn't this great? Because I'm selling $20 million a year of this or that. That does not excite me at all. That has no meaning for me. What has meaning for me is that I'm producing a quality product that I've been working on for years and I can tell you the product is what I say it is and I want it to help you. I want you to be able to take this product and feel confidence that you're getting what the Chinese have used in traditional Chinese medicine for thousands of years. That's what I want.   Jeff: I don't want to sell you something that is not what it really is and is a placebo and expect you to buy the product from me and I walk away going "I'm managing this great at my company. I'm making so much money and it's wonderful." No, I'm sorry, that's not me. I'm not interested. Those people turn me off. It's like the difference between being in a group of people that really understand mushrooms or herbs and being in a group of people that are just talking business and numbers and all that kind of stuff. And I don't give a shit about that.   Mason: Yeah. I think it's interesting. Watching your business I can see in the beginning it probably would've started out that everyone knew Jeff and knew your level of integrity and how you just wanted a good product. In that little circle it was like 'Great, we'll just go and get Jeff's product.' Then as you grow I think what you've done really well ... just to put it as an example of why I'm bringing this up, we're getting to this point where we're growing as a company where it's beyond Mason at the markets and everyone knows that Mason has the badass tonic herbs. Or people are coming along to the talks and all the health clique. We've started emerging.   Mason: I think you would've gone through this years ago when you emerged beyond the health clique. And it's very dramatically people aren't associating directly with you or the founder, it's the company. They don't even know or care who the founder is and therefore you need to have these things in place. We're getting to the point where everyone who's a SuperFeast customer is just like, "Yeah, we don't even care about organic, we know what you guys are doing," and we're going on that old philosophy and we're documenting that and there's all those other checks in place like independent testing for pesticides and metals and all that in place and available.   Mason: But it's getting to that point now where the people on the very outside... I still don't know if we're really gonna shift because I still personally don't care and I don't change my company for perception's sake. But you can see Wow, that organic would be really, really useful for those people on the outside. Or the testing to know what percentage of what's going on inside and being able to present that. I think we'll move in that direction. I think you've done that really well and really maintained the trust in the brand of course, and in yourself. But maintaining you there as the one that's rolling this along and not then just relying, you know, the organic certification or the percentages.   Mason: I think that's what I find really commendable, because most people then they rest on their laurels. Once they change over into, not standardizing but testing for minimum constituents like beta-glucans or organic. they then rest on that. Whereas that means nothing to me at all. Being able to talk to you I'm like, Yeah, because organic, I don't know what your take on that. I know there's some terrible organic products out there. Just the fact that we know we can go organic there's five different companies we can go to, so you just go and find the company that suits you. We can go with the company that's the hardest to jump through.   Mason: I won't go into the details of what's going on, why we're probably not going to go in that direction. For us there's so many little micro-farms that we're being nimble with whom we're working with. When we're beyond mushrooms we've got a lot of other herbs going on. We need to cut that farm out if they need to move on and do something else and we'll go and we've got that team to go around and constantly go and find these people. So every time we want to nimbly adapt and go down a different direction when someone's doing a little more traditionally than the other person, all right, get the organic certify up. Or lie, which is what I think a lot of people are doing. They get the organic certification, then when they change up those little farmers, because we're dealing with independent farmers as well, not a company that can provide the organic certification. I don't know why I went on that rant. So that's why we're not going on down that route.   Mason: It's something I see. I know there's a bunch of companies who are coming to NAMMAX, which I think is just been so good for the Australian industry. For people to know that they're very quickly going to be introducing a really good quality. You can tick off the organic but I hate it when it's just organic that they are going for and not just an incredible product with a story behind it as well. So I really commend you for offering that out.   Jeff: I've always really believed in chemical-free food. Organic is more than just chemical-free it's how it's grown. When you're growing out of soil it's building the soil and not just depleting it. For me organics is a holistic way of looking at things. I've always considered that to be very important and I support that type of agriculture no matter what it is. A lot of these companies that are producing myceliated grain, they're organically certified!   Jeff: It doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be a great product. These companies have what I call all sorts of merit badges. 'We're big and we're organic, we're kosher, we're this, we're that,' which ultimately means nothing at all. There's a lot more to it than just that. The one thing I really like about what you're doing too is that you're introducing the philosophy of it and that's something that you really believe in. That to me is important and that's what people look at. They look at who's behind the company and what that person has to say, is that person ethical, righteous, person or not. You're not up there as a smooth talking business salesman or anything like that, right?   Mason: You should see me try and sell something I don't like. I'm a bumbling mess. I think I told you that back in the markets people used to say god-made...you could sell ice to the Eskimos. But I'm terrible if I'm not talking about herbs or philosophy behind it.   Jeff: That's because you're doing something you believe in. That's where everybody should be. Not everybody has that opportunity, but if you can have that opportunity. I was lucky enough that I followed my passion and I didn't do that because I wanted to be rich. I did it because I loved it. I always say to people, if you really like to do something, whatever it is, just do it. Follow your passion. Maybe you're going to be poor for a long time. Make something that you feel good about.   Mason: Honestly, and I really mean it not just because you're on the podcast talking it up or trying to flatter you. But when I met you, you had a happy disposition to be in business that long. In the beginning I was trying to escape the business side of things. Quite scared about having a business and not coming out the other end alive. You have a sunny disposition and you still have control of your company and the standards and you're still educating about the same thing that you're educating, of course it's evolved, but you were educating about beforehand. And there's something that I've learned a bit about in that. There's something humbling and nice about not being in that pursuit for aggressive growth while still growing at a nice, sustainable rate. But staying true to what you were doing in the first place. I educate about basics of herbalism and medicinal mushrooms in the beginning and then I'll move on and doing other things. The more I go along the more I want to settle back into doing what I did all along.   Mason: I've got a weird thing about going back to the organic, I'll almost shy away from something if it's organic because I see it as a marketing ploy a lot of the time. And I think it is a lot of the time. With little things. When growing Lion's mane there's a lot of people who will use organic fungicide because they don't pick when they're watering out to the Lion's mane. I like to use this example because we don't have a plastic covering, it's just a straw and a hut to keep it nice and dark and it gets watered. That's the only part that gets watered. And one of the things I talked about in the beginning with Lion's mane, I just heard about it through the grapevine, that fungicide is needed if you're watering straw a lot of the time in order to, all right, we know why fungus grows. But found someone who wasn't doing that and found people who were doing organic Lion's mane who were using organic fungicide on the huts. Little things like that they get me so dejected about the marketing ploy behind it. But I think you're the one organic product that I would be over the moon to use.   Mason: And the other example is Ron Teeguarden. I think we talked about him. He was such a rogue in the industry herbally. You were telling me about the acupuncture when he was offering acupuncture because he's a barefoot herbalist and all the acupuncture's guilds are like "Screw you, you need to be regulated." And he's like "Hey."   Jeff: I know, it might've been somebody when you were in LA but it wasn't me. I don't know Ron that well. He's been around a long time. He's done his own thing, he's not out at the shows or anything like that. He's very well-known and in a sense he's been the herbalist to the stars. He's in Los Angeles, right? A lot of people in Los Angeles that are into herbal medicine and living properly in term of what they eat and things like that. They would go to Ron and Ron has one of the very first herb bars where you can walk in and have this type of a drink or that type of a drink. He was really in it very early and doing stuff that nobody else was. He was an outlier in that sense. I don't think he really needed to go into the industry proper. He's done a little more now that before. He didn't have to.   Mason: He, on the level of sourcing philosophy. I bumped into him years ago. I was at that place where I was starting to grow, people are asking why I'm getting my herbs from China and people asking me if I'm organic and all these kinds of things. I want to keep on doubling down on my philosophy, what I'm doing here. One thing that I drew from yourself as well and then be proactive and educating the market. Not in pushing your own product, just generally being happy about the market being educated as well. And Ron was like...In fact I talked with him for about five minutes. More or less he was like "Listen, if you have that spark," I remember, "do not deviate from that sourcing philosophy." And it really stuck with me and from that day I did. I doubled down and I was not going to try and... I'm going to continue to not worry about what's going on and just do me. It's a lot of fun. I was at Dragon Herbs Tonic Bar about three weeks ago. I frequent the Hollywood one when I'm in L.A.   Mason: Before we go too far off the mycelium grown, one of the things you've really educated, not only the market, but businesses in the market around medicinal mushrooms in the market, is how to identify a true polysaccharide read on medicinal mushrooms. Rather than people including 60% polysaccharides or even 30%, yet when you go down into the class of beta-glucan it's actually been tested you've been hoodwinked and they've gone dry from age or whatever. Can you talk a little bit about that?   Jeff: This is something in the herbal industry too that you learn right away, and I learned it back in the 90s, was that so many herbal extracts, when you make the extract they oftentimes need some kind of a stabilizer. Otherwise they can get gummy, they can jut come together if it's a powder. Putting a carrier with a lot of extracts was pretty common. What happened was sometimes companies would cheat a little bit. The next thing you know instead of 10% carrier it was 50% carrier or 80% carrier. And they're not revealing that to anybody. You think you're getting an herbal extract, not just mushroom extract, an herbal extract and it ends up being mostly maltodextrin or dextrose or something like that, and they're not telling you, then it is really deceptive. So there's a lot of companies that were doing that in the industry.   Jeff: As I went along, the whole time that I'm working with people in China I'm like, "Look, I want extracts where we aren't using any carriers. It has to be made in a certain way," because I'm looking for the pure essence. In traditional Chinese medicine they take the herbs and they throw it in a pot and they boil it up and pour it out and "Here, drink this!" There's no carriers in there.   Mason: That's right, not sliding agents.   Jeff: That's right. If you have to put something in a capsule you've got 150 milligrams of different types of fillers and binders and flow agents. Putting it into a pouch is so nice because then you don't have to put those things in with it. It's just the pure herb. Early on in the 90s everybody's testing for polysaccharides and nobody's testing for beta-glucans. And beta-glucan is a polysaccharide. Unfortunately all these carriers are polysaccharides too. A lot of people can hide that from you that you've got carriers on their product. No, no, we don't use carriers, it's 100% mushrooms, stuff like that. That's where with any kind of supplier you have to build up a level of trust. Like I say, they show you a brown powder and say. "Here's our product, it's shiitake mushroom extract. Isn't it great?" You can test it.   Jeff: This is the thing, Mason, it's not like you can take a mushroom product other than a reishi extract, consume it, and then a few hours later or a day later go, "Wow, yeah! Did I ever get a kick out of that!" No, it doesn't work that way. You can organoleptically, I can taste the shiitake extract and I can tell you yeah, that's definitely essence of shiitake. Or with reishi it's so bitter I can taste all those bitter notes in that reishi extract, that is an awesome extract.   Jeff: I used to give a reishi extract to a friend of mine who was a deep herbalist making his own liquid extracts and a big business ultimately. He'd taste some of my extracts in the beginning and he'd go, "Not bad, but it tastes a little bit burnt." And I'm like, "Oh shit." When it was dried it was maybe in the oven a little longer, and he could pick up on it. I thought that tastes pretty good. That was in the early days when I didn't know any better. I thought it's great and high triterpenes and all this. He'd go "Yeah, it tastes a little bit burnt." Those kind of things teach you a little bit about, okay, how's it made. Let me tell you, in the 90s the facilities that were making herbal extracts were nasty. They were old facilities   Mason: Not too much GMP regulation back in those days.   Jeff: It wasn't like stainless steel everywhere, no. Everywhere was dark from all the herbs they'd been cooking for who knows how many years. Now all that's been torn down and you see nothing but brand new factories in China. Everything is stainless steel and it's beautiful and there's none of that anymore. But back then, actually, it wasn't until we got the megazyme test and I started using that. And that was in 2012 or 2013. Up until that point I thought, well, the polysaccharide number was high, that's great. Then we starting testing the products and that's where we really pulled back the curtain. My main supplier, awesome! The test results we got from that. Beta-glucan and alpha-glucan and the alpha-glucan, that was where any of the carriers were revealed.   Jeff: And then another company that was supplying me with some products, only a few, not many, fortunately. And was swearing up and down they never used any carrier. Jesus, their alpha-glucan level was way up there. I was shocked and really upset because I thought their product was good because occasionally I'd test it for polysaccharides it was 50-60% and I was thinking, great product. I could taste it, it tasted okay. Nothing but mushrooms they were producing. But here they were. They were putting them on a carrier and telling me they weren't. That's the kind of thing that you face when you're over there.   Jeff: How do you qualify these products? You can go to the factory. They can show you around, you can look at all the mushrooms in their warehouse, you can look at them cooking these things up, the final products. They don't show you the bags and bags of maltodextrin that are hidden back in the warehouse somewhere that they're using as a carrier for the liquid extract. That literally pulled back the curtain and I went and confronted that with them. They claim no. Finally they actually admitted it and I'm like, okay, see you later. I'm not buying another product from you because you lied to me. Fortunately it was a secondary supplier. They weren't my main supplier at all, but I needed a secondary supplier. I visited them and it was all mushrooms that they were doing and they were in the heart of mushroom country and it was nothing but mushroom. Yet they had all these carriers in there. I was really upset not only with them but with myself because I got taken in by it too. And that's what you have to do.   Jeff: Look, Mason, have you ever been at Ali Baba and looked at all the mushroom products being sold?   Mason: It's always funny, and as you know, everyone's jumping onto the bandwagon right now. You can see people trawling through Ali Baba going "Oh, just tell me which one is awesome." I haven't been in there in a long time. I got curious, to be honest. I think we were in the office having afternoon drinks and seeing what was on Ali Baba. It is insane.   Jeff: It's totally insane. So many companies selling mushroom extracts. Sometimes they're selling at prices where you're like, "No, wait a minute, you can't sell me that extract for $20 for a 10:1 extract. That's impossible. You load it up with starch, that's quite possible, right? That's where analysis, for me, has been very helpful. Especially the beta-glucan analysis because that gives me that alpha-glucan which is the whole carrier. That's what unmasked all of those myceliated grain products. There's definitely a place for analysis. There's also a place for getting to know the grower. I don't believe in organic pesticides. I don't give a shit. Don't use whatever it is, you have to grow this. I know it's more difficult but you have to grow this without sprays and all that.   Jeff: The thing about China is that when you're traveling through China and I've been back in the mountains in all these different places and you go back and you look down and this little valley and here's this beautiful rice fields down there and you're going "Oh, isn't it great, back here. Everything's idyllic." And then you see somebody walking through the rice field and they've got a backpack sprayer. And they're going along spraying chemicals on this rice crop. I'm like, "Ugh, shit. Really? Do you have to do that?" And I think to myself, even the smallest growers out there are using some chemicals. That's where I'm like... And I want to be sure. And that's where we test and test to make sure that everything is staying on track because these things can slip in. Somebody can cheat. You have to ride herd on the whole thing. Otherwise it can slip right through your fingers.   Jeff: That's been good for me in the sense of having an organic product that has meant that we put these constraints on the people that we work with. We say look if your product shows one of these things in there I'm sorry we're not selling it. If you and if you shipped it over to us and we find it in there after you've done the testing that's all good and we find it in there it goes the landfill I'm sorry, we can't sell it. That has been a really good quality, that's how we keep that quality up. In that sense I kind of believe in it all and think it's important. It helps us keep the product a little bit more real.   Mason: As you say said there's all these things that can go by... even though it is organic, you can get organic pesticides and all this kind of stuff. I have taken your product and of course I really love it. You know that you're going to go that extra mile with it. It's a trip around it, there's a stigma around China is isn't that whole thing polluted?   Jeff: Well, that's the other side of it right now, Mason. People are so afraid of anything coming out of China that this gives them a little bit more confidence in it. They can say what they want about organic and all but we've got pesticide tests that can demonstrate what it is and of course the always have to do heavy metals and micros and all of that.   Mason: Alpha-toxins   Jeff: For us, especially as a raw material supplier to companies large and small we have to be able to give them confidence because you know they're selling a Chinese product that they buy from us and lot of people are just like you know when it comes to China it's like no no no no it's like not going to do it so I have to talk to a lot of people. And I say, well, hey look. There's products in the United States that are absolutely full of chemicals. So it doesn't matter where it's grown. It matters where it's grown but it's not this country or that country. You can grow good, clean products anywhere in the world if you're doing it properly.   Mason: It's so good. Of course people are realizing that the ultimate Chinese herbs and medicinal mushrooms are going to be coming out of China. I really like how it's still dominating and making it really easy for people to get One thing that's organic and Two very quickly have all those things to provide so enough people are going to be able to go, Oh, okay, so it's from China and we can trust it. That's something that makes it really easy, because people are going to jump on the mushroom bandwagon. We found it as well, a similar thing. People want to come, they're like okay, tell us about Chins. Okay, tested three times for pesticides before it comes to market, each batch. Plus here in Australia the TGA facility and heavy metals and alpha-toxins and microbes. At some point people go "Hmm, shit, okay." And testing of the water. And when we can going and doing radiation testing in the areas. And then going live and seeing pictures of you at your reishi farm is magic.   Mason: When I was going live around China going, you know we're still going up while we're outside the mountains going to the fields where the eucommia bark trees were grown or up in Yunnan. Just drove five hours in the middle of nowhere to get to the poria farm, where there's wild pine and people are going "Holy shit! Look at that land! The land of the dragon. It's calling me. It's real." All of a sudden popping that thing that first of all, yes, you just need to be vigilant, that's absolutely number one. I've only changed suppliers once. In the beginning I found someone I had really enjoyed their product. And then what I've decided was one of my areas in going forth is I need someone that could absolutely school me. If I'm requesting things and they weren't able to "bang" school me on that immediately, then I'm not going to be able to do business.   Mason: And it got to this point where I was confirming no municipal water. Only springs, only well water. Only creek water in the area. Nothing from the tap every touching the crops. At one point "Okay, sometimes that's a bit hard." I was like "All right, I'm gonna change now." That's when I started going down that route and ended up... developing relationships, developing a friendship first, understanding the intent behind the philosophy behind the business, understanding who owns the business that you're going to be dealing with and what their motives are and what their history is. These are the things where people don't realize what goes into it. People go "Can you tell me your supplier?" And you're like   Jeff: (laughs)   Mason: At this point it's not about me being scared about you having access to that supplier but so much has gone into this relationship. It's not just about finding someone and sourcing off them. Although, it's nice and easy to do that. If I was beginning right now I'd love to be buying just from suppliers on NAMMAX because it's cool. All the certificates, all the independents, and then all the years of vetting and tweaking that leads to this point where trust is inevitable and you become even more switched on to what to look for if anything ever comes up. If anything slips or changes you know the questions to ask and where the slip in quality could possibly be. And large ways you know how to put things in place that would stop that from ever happening to begin with. It's an interesting industry.   Jeff: We go there every year and we'll do an audit. We'll visit farms, the factory we'll be sure we confer with our partners to make sure everything is good. This year we're at the point where we're hiring someone to be on the ground in China that will do a lot of checking and stuff for us on a regular basis. More regular than us going over there once a year. It's gotten to a point where we really need that coverage of somebody right there that we can say "Can you go out to this farm or this factory?" Also, communications because sometimes communications... although some of our partners speak English but some of them not so well and then they have to use a go-between and that's not always the best. So we're gonna have somebody now that's right there in China and can do that for us. Can you imagine going to China and traveling around without having somebody with you to help you through the liaise and talk?   Mason: I have the best intentions of getting my Mandarin up to scratch and as soon as I'm out of it, it all slips out of my head. I haven't fully entered into that poetic language realm. The language is sticking. Can you speak Chinese?   Jeff: No, I speak Spanish, but Sky's learning Chinese. He has three classes a week, an hour each class with a Chinese speaker he does it over Zoom or something like that. He's very diligent about it. We get over there. He's speaking with them in Chinese and they love it. He's learning more, but unless you actually go and live somewhere for a while it's always tough. I've been thinking about it. You go over and spend two weeks, three weeks, whatever, then you leave. That's nothing in terms of really getting in and learning a language. That's swimming on the surface.   Mason: I gotta get onto it because I'm gonna do some Taoist training there.   Jeff: Yeah, that'd be really cool. You're young enough that you still can do that. I'm way beyond doing anything like that.   Mason: Come on, they'd love you up in the temple.   Jeff: Not only that, where I love to be is in Patagonia   Mason: Dude, that's the other place my heart lies, down in Patagonia. I want to become an old Argentinian man. I want to become a cowboy.   Jeff: Exactly, I know where we can get some horses, Mason, so let me know.   Mason: All right, that's it. That's on. China this year, maybe Patagonia next year.   Jeff: Yeah, two years ago Andrea and I went out and spent the day with, we had a gaucho that took us out. We went all over this one area. It was a hot day too. We were on horseback the whole time, cruising through, very slow. Slow living at its best, right?   Mason: Yeah, that's it. Drinking, eating a lot of meat, drinking a lot of yerba mate.   Jeff: Yeah, when you're on a horse you're not going to go very fast. You're going to cruise along. It's life in the slow lane.   Mason: I love it. So before we finish up is there anything that is coming up now that's exciting you about educating people about this market and about this industry with medicinal mushrooms?   Jeff: People really still need a lot of education with mushroom. Part of what I do too which I really like is I talk about the nutritional value of mushrooms. My thing too is eat mushrooms. I think mushrooms may be the missing link in terms of food. A lot of people are like, fungus, never eat it, right? And I'm like, "Dude, you've gotta get on and eat mushrooms, it's a fabulous food. They've got great benefits, you get medicinal benefits as well as nutritional benefits." That's the key for me, I'm pushing that really hard when I talk to people, saying "No, it's a fabulous food." And in China they have this whole thing of food is medicine.   Jeff: That's in Ancient Greece too. Food as your medicine. Everything that you take into your body should be something that is beneficial. And medicine as a very loose way in terms of it's feeding you and keeping you healthy. And that's what we should all be thinking about. What we consume is keeping us healthy and we should look at our food as that. That's providing me with all of these benefits. I say if you want a supplement, you feel you need more, that's great. You can supplement. But definitely use mushrooms for food. That's a big category for me.   Jeff: As a mushroom grower, can you imagine? I'm working on an agaricus farm. For ten years every day I'm going in I'm going through the rooms and each room ultimately is producing 20,000 pounds of mushrooms. There's mushrooms everywhere around me growing and I'm stoked. I love this. I've got mushrooms that I'm eating all the time. I've even got small beds of mushrooms that I bring stuff home and I'm growing them in my house because it's so interesting to me. The farm I was on it wasn't just an agaricus, we had a scientist that was growing shiitake and maikitake and oyster mushrooms. Back in the 70s when those weren't even on the markets anywhere. And I had access to these mushrooms. Besides the wild mushrooms that we were navigating. I'm like, make them part of your diet because it's a wonderful food.   Jeff: That's my message to people is this is a forgotten food, bring it home.   Mason: I love it so much. Thanks for reaching out, I really appreciate you reaching out and having you on here. It's not only do I admire you as a person, admire what you've done and your business. I spoke to you a little bit about it. I like talking to the other people who are perceived competitors. There's so much room in this market and everyone's doing their own thing and has their own story. This whole red ocean we have to fight over a scrap of people who are going to be buying mushrooms and not focusing on educating together is absolutely ridiculous. It's always awesome to meet people who trail-blazed that attitude in the industry. Calling out people that are bullshitting and then coming together and educating together and getting the world healthy together in our little way. There's something really nice about that that makes it possible to be in business for so much time, for so long, see so much shit yet still have such a positive attitude about it.   Jeff: That's absolutely right. I really love what you're doing too and I love the whole Taoist part of what you're taking to people and bringing to people. That philosophy is really awesome. That's what brings something really unique. When I hear you talking about mushrooms up around, what's the lake up there in the mountains?   Mason: Mumbai   Jeff: Yeah, that was so cool and you're hanging out there, talking about the mushrooms really excited about it all. That is really special. I love your energy, Mason, I'm really happy that we've been able to get together and have these meet-ups, speak and let's carry it on, let's keep doing it and stay in touch for sure.   Mason: Absolutely. We'll get some videos in another podcast together, 100%. I'll go check out these dates, see if I can swing a   Jeff: I'll send you the info on it so that you can check it out. If you can come you'll have a ball because there's gonna be lots of mushroom peop

After another road win the Pharma boys talk about NSC chances in the upcoming home games and discuss their favorite comebacks. Also bad news; it seems that there is a secret Tottenham fan in our midst! Note from producer Mason: So sorry I forgot to edit and upload this episode earlier this week, we really appreciate your support and look forward to bringing you more episodes on a more consistent basis.

In today's podcast the boys come together to discuss candida overgrowth, its frequency within the population, the varied symptomatology associated with this common yeast-like infection and the strategies you can use to bring the body back into balance. Mason, Dan and Sage draw on their superior knowledge of this condition from personal experience, sharing their wisdom from a traditional Taoist tonic herbal perspective and a functional naturopathic approach.   The gents discuss: The fact that Candida albicans is a naturally occurring organism within the body and only becomes problematic when imbalance occurs how chronic use of antibiotics can contribute to the condition how diet and lifestyle practices can help to bring things back into harmony the common symptoms that candida overgrowth is present, e.g. chronic fatigue, brain fog, digestive disturbances, weakened immunity, oral thrush, fungal infections within the the skin and nails etc the particular clinical tests you can use to investigate and diagnose candida within your body how you can use your symptoms and health history to identify whether candida is a problem for you foods that aggravate the immune system and exacerbate candida overgrowth the importance of food combining in regards to candida candida from a naturopathic perspective and the clinical markers used to identify the condition the importance of normalising the body's circadian rhythms and adrenal response is in regards to healing candida from a Taoist perspective and what's happening within the organ systems, particularly the spleen how candida leads to jing depletion and exhaustion within the system as a whole the correlation between candida and leaky gut the Jing herbs you can use to rebuild your foundational energy stores, these include he shou wu, cordyceps, rehmannia, morinda etc the importance of lifestyle factors such as sleep, rest, breathing practices, nature time and reduced caffeine and sugar intake to bring combat candida overgrowth the lifestyle tweaks you can use to bring the body back into its parasympathetic mode so you can heal. Reishi and Ashwagandha are game changers here how cutting carbs and sugar can help manage candida symptoms using fats (ketones) as fuel how herbs such as pau d'arco, chaga and reishi can assist healing the benefits of probiotics and fermented foods such as sauerkraut and coconut kefir  the Body Ecology Diet the importance of sunshine and vitamin D, sweat and movement the herbs and nutraceuticals you can use to break up stubborn biofilms the importance of supporting the liver with herbs such as schizandra, burdock and dandelion root and st mary's thistle  the importance of full body detoxification in healing from candida overgrowth the three phases of liver detoxification and the nutrients your body needs to successfully complete them the immune boosting powers of medicinal mushrooms when healing from candida, particularly chaga, reishi, turkey tail, maitake, Mason's Mushrooms the difference between ground dwelling mushrooms and those that grow on trees e.g medicinal mushrooms  bringing awareness around the glycemic load of gluten free products when working to heal candida overgrowth the tests you can use to distinguish candida from other bacterial loads within the body, particularly the OAT (organic acids test)   Who is Dan Sipple? Dan is a also known as The Functional Naturopath who uses cutting-edge evidence-based medicine. Experienced in modalities such as herbal nutritional medicine, with a strong focus on environmental health and longevity, Dan has a wealth of knowledge in root-dysfunction health.   Who is Sage Dammers? Fuelled by a passionate desire to help people live the ultimate life and create a better world, Sage studied raw and superfood nutrition and traditional herbal systems, especially Taoist tonic herbalism. He has worked with and trained under the world’s leading master herbalists and nutrition and longevity experts in Costa Rica, Australia, Bali, China, and America. Sage has developed products internationally and given lectures on peak performance nutrition in Australia, Bali, America, and France. His years of experience in this unique arena have allowed him to cultivate an unparalleled combination of cutting edge nutritional and culinary expertise. Sage has started tonic elixir bars in 5 star luxury hotels in Paris and Sydney serving longevity elixirs disguised as gourmet treats, introducing the novel concept of healthy indulgences to the market of world travelers.     Resources Clearlight Saunas The Wim Hoff Method Body Ecology Mason in China at the Poria Farm Benny Ferguson Movement MonkDan InstagramDan Email Addictive Wellness  addictivewellness Instagram Addictive Wellness Choccies on Amazon   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify and Soundcloud!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason: Hey, everybody! Welcome to the SuperFeast podcast. It's Mason here, and I've got an epic conversation coming for you today with some of my favorite men in the health space. I've got two names and faces you're going to recognize. We've got Sage Dammers from, you're joining us from over in LA, Addictive Wellness. Incredible tonic herb-infused, sugar-free chocolates as well as smoothie elixir packs, and all infused with all these beautiful tonic herbs and mushies we're going to be going into and as well as tonic herbs on their own. Mason: And Sage is one of my absolute favorite voices coming out of that like, gnarly melting pot of LA with this absolutely next-level in health and this integration of health systems from all around the world, and Sage has been in it for so many years and you've heard him talk on it before, and you've heard his wealth of knowledge. It's always surprising to find out what he's going to be able to come up with. And today, talking about candida, is going to be no different. Mason: And I've also got Dan Sipple, friend, functional naturopath down the south coast of Sydney. Dan is absolutely my favorite go-to naturopath, we've been friends for a long time. He is now officially my mother's naturopath and mine and Tahnee's naturopath, and so that's a beautiful little evolution that's going about. Mason: Boys today we're going on a deep dive, three way conversation around the yeast-like infection candida albicans. Welcome guys. Dan: Hey, hey. Sage: Thank you for having us, Mason. It's a pleasure to be here. Mason: Yeah it's going to be so good, so fun. Alright, you know I don't know how many other people are going to be having the best time absolute ever having a conversation around a gnarly infection that's become ... I guess it's not as trendy, I'd say? As it used to be? But it's definitely still a hot topic, especially a hot topic in the west. Mason: Candida albicans, yeast-like fungus within the body that, as I mentioned, now it's absolutely a normal part. These candida cells are a normal part of our body, of our flora, exists within our mucus membranes, our skin, mouths, genitalia, vagina, intestines and other organs. We're going to be talking about this phenomena today where we see some kind of environmental, or maybe lifestyle, or maybe it's been a modern medicine antibiotic that's then led to an upset within our microbiome and basically in many other areas, including immune deficiencies. That's led to this fungus, yeast within the body then overgrowing and getting what many people have experienced, which is fungal overgrowth. Mason: First of all I just want to go to Sage. Just going to go to you and say hey and give people a bit of an insight with your history of candida. Sage: Yeah, absolutely thank you Mason. For me personally, I dealt with candida first hand. When I was growing up I was a vegetarian but not a healthy by any means. I was just on carb overload throughout my whole Childhood of like rice and pasta and pizza and any carb I could get my hands on. Was very fortunate not to be eating fast food, but still was not the most ultimate diet ever. Sage: So when I came into my teen years, about 15 and a half, I started developing chronic acne, probably more to do with my diet than anything else. Diet and combination of hormones and things like that. I didn't know what to do with it at the time, you know? I tried lost of topical things and things of that nature but nothing was really making an impact in helping me, and that's such a stressful thing as a kid to be going through. And I resorted to taking antibiotics, because it was the only thing that was going really do me any good at the time in terms of the superficial results that I was looking for. I didn't understand the whole repercussions and the future downsides of it, I just knew, this is going to help me in the short-term not to be so self-conscious. And I had no other solutions. I didn't know of all these other things I know about now. I wish I would've. Sage: So I was on twice-daily antibiotics from age 16 until 19 and a half. Mason: Gnarly. Sage: So these years of antibiotics, as you can imagine, wreaked havoc on my microbiome, and left me ripe for candida to come in and take over. So it was a thing where in the beginning I enjoyed fruit so much, and even as I was getting healthy and getting onto much more of a natural diet I still really enjoyed fruit. So I didn't want to give that up, and that was the one thing holding me back from really making progress against candida, where I couldn't make the jump to go fully into what was necessary to push back on the candida. Sage: And eventually it got to the point where I got real mentally strong about it and got strict and went through the Body Ecology Diet, Stage One, where it's really strong. Cutting out carbs, cutting out sugars, bringing in probiotics and fermented foods and some of the most powerful antifungal and immune-enhancing herbs, and over the course of a couple years that really got me through it and got me to a much better stage of health. Life has been much better ever since. Mason: Yeah, I mean to the extent that where I think that history of yours has played such a huge part in your life that it's absolutely entwined in your philosophy, the ways that you make your chocolates and your elixir blends, right? Sage: That's why I have sugar-free chocolate, is because I [inaudible 00:05:25] but still have a sweet treat, while I was in the candida recovery stages, and it didn't really exist. It wasn't out there. All, you know there's all these chocolates made with agave and coconut palm sugar and all that, and regardless of where somebody may stand on those things, they are still gonna be feeding bacteria, fungus, yeast and molds in the body, and it's not going to be your friend most times and especially not on recovery from candida where you need to not be feeding these guys. So I made it out of necessity, and it's turned into a beautiful life of being a chocolate maker. Mason: Yeah, I love it. The fruit of the healing journey and I still attest that it's the only sugar-free chocolate that I can really thoroughly enjoy. Sage: Thank you. Mason: Dan you've had quite a history with candida, now you've really had this firsthand clinical experience for a number of years now. I'm interested to hear what your path with candida has been. Dan: Yeah sure, and not too dissimilar to Sage. IT very much came as a result of antibiotic exposure, and so I've talked a couple of times on previous podcasts. In my earlier years, 17, 18, 19 I had issues with viral load and autoimmunity, which kind of set the scene for other opportunistic organisms to take over, and it was a course of about five or six years where I was kind of floating in that space where my immune system was compromised to the point to where I would actually need antibiotics by the time these bacterial infections would take over. It was like a vicious cycle that got set up, and I see that often in clinical practice too, where once that cycle starts it's very hard to get off that train. Particularly if you are being dictated to by the western medical model, which at the time I was heavily under the influence by. Mason: [inaudible 00:07:19]. Dan: Yeah, absolutely that's right. So lots and lots of antibiotics, I'd get better. I'd push my body a bit, the infections would return to the point where there was clear and overt infection. Not knowing anything about herbal protocols or functional medicine or naturopathy or anything of that kind of world at this stage, but it was very much a long road to try to undo that vicious cycle and get out of that loop? And incorporating things like Sage is talking about with diet and lifestyle and cutting the alcohol and the sugars out, you know. Optimizing vitamin D status and restoring the microbiome. So it was definitely one of those things that didn't go away overnight, and I think that's really important to drill into the listeners as well is that once you get traction with something like candida you really need to set up a lifestyle that facilitates long-term resistance against that so that these opportunistic organisms can't take back over. Mason: Candida's such an interesting one. The level of symptoms that arise from a chronic infection are so vast, and it's one of those ones where if you read the list you go, my gosh; I don't know if that list is very useful because there's so many other infections or deficiencies that can give rise to it. But then there are, of course, some specifics. And so looking at the list, you've got chronic fatigue, brain fog, digestive issues. Then when you start getting down a little bit more the reoccurring yeast infections, oral thrush. Even going into sinus infection, you can start seeing candida is being implicated when there's food allergies, when there's intolerance. Of course, dead giveaway is fungal infections on the skin, within the nails especially within the feet, and then a weak immune system. Quite often is it a chicken or an egg, you know? You can see that when there is weak immunity, especially when you see medications in particular like antibiotics and chemotherapy, and then hormone disrupters like hormone replacement therapy ... what is it? Corticosteroids, then? Am I saying that right? Dan: That's right, yeah. Immunosuppressants, corticosteroid-based medications because they're basically squashing the immune response, which, although ameliorate symptoms, allows these guys to take an even stronger hold. Mason: Mm. Oh and then you even see joint pain and definitely the alteration of moods coming about from candida. And so we go, okay. Unless you've got some of the telltales, like reoccurring thrush, fungal thrush in the mouth and fungal infection coming up on the skin, how do you clinically hone in on a diagnosis that in fact we do have candida cells proliferating in excess in the body? Dan: Is that question directed at me, Mason? Just to clarify? Mason: It is, and I will just make ... And I don't think you have clinic, Sage. I don't know maybe you didn't know that Dan. Sage: No, no clinic for me. So if I hear the clinically word in there just [inaudible 00:10:22]. Dan: Yeah, so to answer that question. That's a really good question, Mase, to really sort of hit on the head in the forefront. I think with an issue like candida it's very, very rare that I see that alone. What I usually find is that that's there in concert with just a good old dysbiosis where you'll see bacterial pathogens that are overgrown, you may or may not see parasites as well. So I don't think I've ever seen just one clean cut, pure case of candida without all that going on with some sort of viral load or bacterial imbalance. And so what we find is, is that the best kind of treatment is not just to isolate the yeast in this case and attack the yeast. It's to nurture that whole ecosystem, to treat it like an ecosystem where you're setting up a new environment basically, to where it's not conducive for it to thrive, which as we say does incorporate diet, lifestyle, herbs and the whole concert and symphony of things. Dan: But in terms of testing, you can do blood testing for antibodies to see if the immune system has actually seen the candida albicans and made antibodies against it from the base cells? The only downside to a test like that is that you don't whether the immune system has made those antibodies 10 years ago or if it's happening right now and that's where the symptoms really need to guide you. If there's overt signs of candida as is like on the tongue, the toenail, the respiratory issues and what not, then you've got more of a case for that so that's where usually doing the stool test and looking at candida markers in combination with that blood is a really good way to back that up. Because if you're seeing it on both, if you're seeing it in the stool, antibodies, then you've got quite a good case for it being currently present. And in that case, you know, obviously, you want to make the protocol more specific to yeast in that case. Mason: Sage, how do you go about this? Because I completely ... I like the fact that I've got access to Dan's knowledge and can get a little bit more specific, and I know you recommend this a lot, in getting some testing, getting some panels done so you're not just, like, shooting in the dark. But how do you, dare I say kind of like, I know I can definitely say that I come from a more folky perspective when it comes to gentle diagnosis? But from your perspective how do you go about that in really identifying that candida is in fact present? Sage: Yeah, I don't know exactly what your health care system is like in Australia, but I know here in the US it's expensive to do lots of testing. Very often things will not be covered by insurance so you'll have to pay them out of pocket, so I always find it's really nice to be able to at least somewhat get a little bit of progress in terms of a self-diagnosis before you go investing in testing so at least you know what tests to go do, so you don't have to spend thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. Because it can get real expensive. Sage: So with candida, as you mentioned, you're looking at a lot of symptoms in terms of recurring infections, oral thrush, fungal issues. And then it's a combination of looking at your symptoms and then looking at your history in terms of antibiotic use. If you've had extended use of antibiotics, especially if it's for two weeks or more in the past, your odds are going to be pretty high that at some point candida has taken a good foothold in your system and started to really proliferate beyond the natural levels that you'd find. Candida at small levels is actually a good part of a healthy microbiome, good for nutrient absorption and beneficial in that way. But when things are thrown out of balance you're going to get in a lot of trouble. Sage: So there's many really good questionnaires up there online that people can do just to get an initial idea, just to get a rough feel? Then from there you can progress to testing, which I think is incredibly important. If you can afford it, whether it's this kind of testing or whether you're looking at your thyroid or hormones, rather than just experimenting without data indefinitely and maybe five years from now you finally figure out what's really going on. Save yourself a ton of time and a lot of trouble and probably save yourself money in the long run in terms of being able to spend money on the right supplements and herbs to help you out, and foods, rather than dealing with misdiagnoses for an extended period of time. Mason: Well let's say just getting to the food here. Often we know, that yeah we've had a look at kind of the pharmaceutical angle, the antibiotics especially. Especially going in and nailing the microbiome and causing our ability to actually create the environment where we can naturally regulate healthy levels of this, this and candida cells being within the body. Let's have a look at the food that you see as being an accumulative force or an aggravator, that leave our organ function, immune function, the microbiome function to getting to the point that candida can actually take hold. What are the, what are these nasty ones or excessive ones that get nasty when they're excessive? Sage: Yeah I think it is many things that happen in conjunction. Probably, if you had never taken antibiotics, and you've got a really strong immune system, you could deal with having some of the wrong foods coming into the body, right? Even if you never did antibiotics, but you're having tons of sugar, but your immune system's really strong ancestrally? Maybe you're okay and maybe you can pull it off. Or if you're having lots of sugar and in combination you're having, say, ground mushrooms, like culinary mushrooms that haven't been properly cleaned and tend to be very contaminated and nasty. And these are different from tree mushrooms, I want to be real clear about the distinction- Mason: I'm going to leave a lot of time for us to get into that distinction, thanks for bringing that up so when we- Sage: Yeah yeah. So we'll come back to that a little bit later. Patience everybody, we'll get there. Mason: Patience, you mushroom fiends! Sage: Depending on the individual, right? Because everybody's got a bit of a different setup in terms of the microbiome and adjusted powers, but for a lot of people I think also: poor food combining. Especially having lots of, like, leafy greens? That take time to digest and they're very fibrous? And combining that with really sugary starchy fruit. I've found that for a lot of people the fruit wants to burn up fast and move through, and it's like rocket fuel. But then you have, you know. It's like a Ferrari on a freeway, wants to go, doesn't like being driven slowly. And then you have these green leafy vegetables that take time to digest, they're very nutritious, they're like a big rig carrying lots of, you know, nutrition on them and fiber and what not. And they slow down the traffic, and the Ferrari is getting into road rage. It's like it develops into a situation where it's a ripe breeding ground for proliferation as things start to ferment in there. Sage: So that could also be a situation that, while it may not specifically cause, it wouldn't be a root source of candida? It would not be supportive or helpful if it was something that you were dealing with. Mason: Mm. Love it. Hey Dan what about you, in terms of dietary lifestyle factors that are really going to come in and, you know, if ... I like what you said there, Sage. There's going to be different constitutions at work here. You're going to have an ancestral ... It might be the difference being breastfed or not being breastfed, in terms of whether your immune system is strong or just ancestrally whether you've got that strong gene expression within the immune system, and then acknowledging that. Because long-term, I think you've definitely seen it over in LA, I definitely have here in the health, same way. You almost get to a paranoia of candida becoming crippling to your lifestyle. Is that something you see happening a lot? Sage? Sage: A little bit. It's not people, the awareness of it in the community is not as strong, I would say, as it was in like, 2011, 2012? There was- Mason: Glory days. Sage: ... back then? You know, these trends and focuses always kind of come and go. I don't know, it's weird because it's still as much an issue as ever, but people kind of feel the need to talk about something new, so they can sell new books and post new videos. So. As we move more further beyond some of the basics than we really need to, the solution was often right at hand. Mason: Yeah, very funny. And I agree. I think candida is having a PR nightmare right now. I think- Sage: [SIBO 00:18:45] has stolen all the attention from it. Mason: Yeah. And so Dan what's your take on this? Dietarily, lifestyle-wise, what are the conditions that you see as precursor to, especially if someone has the constitution that is ripe for the picking for candida being an issue. What do you see those being? Dan: I completely agree with Sage, and I think I'd add on to that what I find really prevalent is when people's circadian rhythms are out? When they're using, you know, dietary sources to jack up their adrenal response. So caffeine, you know, refined sugar obviously. Nailing the circadian rhythms and leaving space between meals sounds really, really simple, but it is quite pivotal when you're dealing with any sort of dysbiotic environment when it comes to the gut, or the respiratory system, or any immune suppression. Getting the circadian rhythms locked in and normalizing the nervous system, and the adrenal response is huge. Dan: Because if you think about it, if you've got fire going on in that digestive system or anywhere in the body that's of a yeast or a general viral origin or whatever, your adrenals are seeing that and are constantly trying to put out those flames with a fire extinguisher, hence the adrenal fatigue phenomena. So normalizing those rhythms and supporting the adrenals can't be understated. Mason: Yeah, I would definitely attest to that. I mean, we've spoken about ... I think I've spoken to both of you previously on the podcast talking about digestion in case people aren't realizing digestion has a huge part to play with candida albicans. Especially from a [Daoist 00:20:29] perspective when you start seeing weak spleen Chi. Mason: That can really be the feeding ground from a triple burner perspective. That middle burner really emerging with whether it's just dampness or weakness within the spleen and therefore that whole spleen and digestive network through the stomach, then allowing strong digestive function, strong governance of your bacterial levels. What we see there is that can be the catalyst to then going down into the lower burner where we see damp heat emerge, and we start seeing yeast infections within, basically throughout the entire sexual organ system. And then also moving from that middle burner to the upper burner, where we see heat and fire through the lungs with all those allergies and all those respiratory issues and through the heart as well. Mason: So basically I'm going to pause it there because I think if I open up that can of worms and make a distinct ... in these treatment protocols it's going to take us in a completely other direction. Mason: But there's a few things then that you were touChing on that I want to leapfrog off, and that was definitely the Jing and exhaustion aspect here. You talked about the fact that, I like seeing the Jing as the pilot light for digestion. If you are exhausted, if you're adrenally exhausted, if you're leaking that essence, if you're relying on coffee, if you're mentally stressed and you're in emotional patterns that continue to make you, you know. Those things that make you emotionally excessive. You're going to see that you don't have the foundations and roots within your body, within the core energy centers of the kidneys to really stabilize you. And to that, you're going to see a thorough endocrine disruption go on at that stage, because you are overly adrenalized. And you can't produce natural cortisol, you can't get down to, like you have to rely on these cortisone creams and all that kind of stuff. But then at the same time you're not going to be able to lead to that real healthy sex organ function. Mason: And so, basically, that core is ... You see that consistently, I do as well, Sage, where that exhaustive, gene-depleting lifestyle doesn't allow for the pilot light to go on so that the spleen can actually turn on that fire and appropriately- Dan: It can probably become, I think it can really become a vicious cycle, because with the candida, it's creating higher levels of permeability of digestive lining. So you're getting, essentially leaky gut, and this is releasing bits of food and digestive materials into the bloodstream, which is causing inflammation and autoimmunity. But it's also releasing the toxins, which are being produced by the candida. Its own, basically the candida poo being released throughout your body. Dan: So now you've got systemic inflammation firing away, and that is going to be a major leak of Jing. So that in itself is depleting the adrenals, and it's a vicious cycle because okay now your adrenals are depleted, now you can't fuel your immune system because you're experiencing exhaustion, and the candida can even grow further. And it's really unfortunate. But at the same time if you can get in there with a little bit of action and start making some moves on it, you can slow down that cycle and start to spin it back. Mason: Well let's start here, in terms of looking at treatment. Once we've identified that perhaps we have an environment, and as Dan was saying: you're not going to be able to just isolate candida. There's most likely going to be a number of coinfections, and you're definitely going to see, I'm sure you're going to see a bunch of worms of various types being present at that time because we're going to see a repressed immune function. But starting off the bat, quite often we're looking at removing the excessive candida from the body, cleaning up the diet, and I guess loosely saying this is going to be a cleansing or cleaning aspect of the protocol. Mason: Now at this point, I'd like to get both your two cents. We'll start with Sage. Do you like to bring in, of course lifestyle factors, and I think it's obvious that are going to reduce stress, but do you like to bring in herbs or other practices to, for lack of a better word, tone our ability to store and restore Jing? Sage: Yeah, of course. So naturally, you and I and I bet Dan is into these as well, you want to look at your top Jing-building herbs. Things like He Shou Wu, Cordyceps, [inaudible 00:24:58], Rehmannia, Morinda. And so I think building that base of core vitality is an essential component of any healing program, basically. Because without that your body just does not have the energy and the safety. When you're in such a Jing-vulnerable state? And you're prepared to run out of fuel and die at just about any moment? Your body is afraid and not going to divert resources to dealing with your fungal issues because it's just concerned with not, like, crashing and burning and that being the end of the show. Sage: So absolutely, building the Jing is essential, so you can build ... you're kind of simultaneously wanting to build the Jing, and address the candida itself to stop the Jing leak, and then you can start improving at like, twice as fast. Mason: And Dan, what's your take on that? Dan: Yeah. 100%. Nervous system and adrenal support is absolutely necessity initially before you, I think before you even go in thinking about using the big guns to break up the biofilms and reduce the candida load with strong antimicrobials, which are all part of the protocol. But it really depends on the person in front of you to. So for example, if I've got someone who's burning the candle at both ends, doing the 75-hour work week, and only wants to take antimicrobials it's like, ha ha. No, no, no, no, no. We have to nail the lifestyle first. That is absolutely essential. And so sleep, blue lights, EMFs, all of that stuff comes into it. Diet, you have to have the foundations ready and ripe for the body to go, aha! Now I can enter healing mode, now I can switch over to parasympathetic. Because the foundations are there. Dan: What I often do in those cases, too, with someone who is really on this end of the spectrum and is part of that go-go-go lifestyle? Is just little simple tweaks, like green tea. So instead of coffee? It's green tea. It's anti-strep, it's anti-candida, it boosts [inaudible 00:26:58] bacteria, it's antioxidant, it's lymphatic. So little tweaks like that. You know, removing the sugars. You sort of stage it out. Dan: Then you might bring in a probiotic, and you'll use a strain which has been shown to reduce fungal load and boost natural killer cells and various components of the immune system. And you step it up. And you step it up. And you step it up. And you carefully watch for reactions, because that's another part of it with any sort of protocol where you are reducing microbial load, because you are obviously going to run into potential detoxification issues if that person's ability to clear out these metabolites can't keep up with the front end. So that's something that you really have to be careful navigating. Dan: And like Sage said earlier, this can take a long time, people. This can take, if it's been a long time it can be up to one or two years. And then once you're there to have to maintain where you've got to, and in my case I got there a long time and ended up, a little while later, in a moldy apartment over on the northern beaches and it all went out the window. Those things come up, so you have to be really on to the environmental side of it too. Mason: Okay, and let's just, before we move on, I want to touch on the nervous system and supporting the nervous system to getting into that parasympathetic state so we can actually get to resting, digesting, and healing. Some of your favorite methods, distinctions whether they use technologies or whether they be something simple that we can access through nature. Dan: Yeah, nice one. So I'm sure we've touched on it before Mason, but just barefoot earthing. Getting back into nature, a very simple thing to do. Slowing the breathing down, doing diaphragmatic breathing, not breathing shallowly from the chest. And doing that as often as possible, making that really, really priority. I often team that up with the blue light blockers, which you can get now. Get people to slap those on at like 7 PM at night every night leading up to bed. SwitChing off wifi at night, that's really good for the nervous system. Dan: So all these little tweaks to get you over from fight-or-flight over to the parasympathetic side of the nervous system. You can also pair that up with a few gentle botanicals like chamomile, passionflower, and Reishi mushroom for example. That trio works fantastic. Mason: Yeah, like a beautiful moon milk at night, maybe with a bit of a ... well I like doing a chamomile, lavender infusion within the milk there, been doing that for retreaters recently and getting those Reishis in there. Beautiful nightcap. Mason: Sage, I know there's like a crazy crossover of what you do and love and recommend there, with the breath and the barefoot and getting the blue light out. Sage, one thing I'm going to have to do and put in the notes here is get the instructions on how people can completely get the blue light off their phone. Everyone's like, oh night mode. It's like, no, no, no; I'm like, Sage has got this beautiful hack for getting all the blue light out. Sage: Deep in the settings you can modify it so it glows all red at night, and you can still fully text and stuff. It gets weird if you're trying to, like, check out Chicks on Instagram? Because they don't look good. Mason: And that's you, man. I imagine it gets weird for you all night. AnnaBlanca's like, "What you doing?" Mason: "No I'm just doing some, looking at like, photography development, old school style, so weird." Sage: But other than that, it's great to be able to flip on all red at night, and it's just, everything in your phone, the only colors are red and black, for everything. And there's a shortcut you can set up where all you have to do, and I'm not sure exactly how this goes on with iPhone X and past that where there's no home button anymore. But with the older ones you just tap the home button three times for the shortcut, and it'll put it right into the red. So it's easy to turn on and off, so it's great. And then even for some random reason you need to check the time in the middle of the night, it's all red, so. It's ideal not to use it at all, but if you have to look then at least you're not messing up your melatonin levels and shocking your system in the middle of the night. Sage: And other things that I like for getting into that parasympathetic state is, Reishi mushroom has been mentioned. Ashwagandha is another one of my absolute favorites because it works on so many aspects of health that people are struggling with these days. Mason: It goes right in that moon milk as well, the Ashwagandha and Reishi with that infusion. Oh man, it's so good. Sage: And then also, infrared saunas are great to put you back in that parasympathetic- Mason: Oh yeah. Sage: ... state because you're being surrounded by the infrared, which is that heat signature that we as humans give off. That's why you look through night vision infrared goggles, and you see people. So if you think back, and this is a theory my dad first shared with me, and this is not scientifically based, really; it's just a theory, and you see if it resonates with you. But if you look back at when the last time was that you were fully surrounded with infrared heat in somewhat of a dark and fully safe place was in your mother's womb. Mason: Oh, true. Sage: And so it is getting you back to that place of being fully provided for, fully safe, everything take care of and everything's okay, all you need to do is Chill out. Mason: And you know what I'd probably put there, like, putting those ocean sounds on. Like over when Tahnee was pregnant we were listening to the placenta, and it had this woosh, woosh. So getting those sounds in there at the same time, those ocean sounds while you're meditating in that infrared sauna. And we should put some links, just here on this call we've got some incredible resources for people to go and get a clear light sauna. I mean, your folks offer them over there in the States, and we're both friends with Sebastian here who owns the New Zealand, Australian, and European and UK branch, so basically no matter where you are in the world we're going to be able to basically get you hooked up in- Sage: We've got the connections [inaudible 00:32:52]. Mason: Yeah, we've got the connections. We'll put some links in though depending on which continent you're on and give you some ... you know. Just give them the old, Sage and Mason ... and Dan. Well let's throw Dan in there as well. Sage, Mason and Dan sent me. So get you hooked up because I agree that is one of the absolute, ultimate technologies, having an infrared sauna in my house for getting the nervous system toned up. And we could just do a podcast on that, I'm sure. Mason: Now let's start- Sage: Real quick, if you don't mind, just to finish on the nervous system. I'm a huge fan of the Wim Hof method for this. Breathing and the super oxygenation? For strengthening the nervous system and gently building up to cold exposure. People get intimidated because they see people do it on Instagram in the beginning, but it's just like lifting weights. You train your nervous system, you don't jump in and do something super challenging, you know? Go to try to bench press 200 kilos on your first time going to the gym. Sage: You do the 30 seconds of cold water at the end of a hot shower or after taking a sauna, when it's not going to be that crazy. And from there you gently build up. Eventually you're doing 10 minutes of a cold shower, or you're doing a five or ten minute ice bath and it's not that big of a deal anymore because you built up to it at a sustainable level. Of course if you hit it too hard in the beginning, that's why people catch a cold. Their nervous system's weak and it can't handle being out in the cold if they hit it all at once, and it overwhelms them. It's like if you try to do too much at the gym, you're going to injure yourself, it happens. So I think that is one of the most incredible tools that I've experienced, and now that I've been doing it for, almost four years. And it's been, yeah. So powerful for me. Mason: Yeah and I think that's a good distinction there because when you look at the branding and what works is seeing Wim walk up and down in his shorts, and it's covered in snow. And basically it's very important for us to remember that these aren't systems of fanaticism. These are systems of appropriateness for you to build that core function. So I definitely throw my support behind that. Wim's a great guy and also for those of you that are maybe wanting to go even deeper through a process with your breath, if that might seem a little bit unobtainable? I'll also put a link, um, Benny Fergusson, my friend, the Movement Monk, has a really amazing, gentle breathwork practice that is very intricate and very much takes into account these, the mental and physical unification that's going to have to go throughout that process. Mason: So you've got lots of resources there, everyone, for getting that nervous system toned. Then we start moving into how are we going to get ... We've got the baseline. We've got building back our Jing, getting our nervous system toned, and I think we've kind of talked about it's the bread and butter. And maybe bread isn't the best example here because it's got the yeast raising factors, that are actually going to be implicated when it comes to candida. Sage: Non-starchy, gluten-free bread and butter. Mason: Mm, mm. Grass-fed butter. Sage: There you go. Mason: Basically now I want to get into where we're getting into the clearing now. Getting into the clearing, starting to bring some herbals, start bringing in some compounds that are going to start building back our microbiome, start countering this intense leaky gut that we can start seeing and that permeability that we've already touched on. Sage, you're starting out. What are your pillars for starting to clear the body and get it back on track in those initial stages, which may be for three months or a year. Sage: Yeah, yeah. It is a bit of a journey, and that was the most intimidating thing to me in the beginning that actually stopped me from starting for a couple of years, after I kind of knew I was going to have to do this. But I was super intimidated by the fact that I was really going to have to be serious about cutting down on carbs and sugar for anywhere from six months to two years, and I wanted to figure out any other way. But in the end it came back to this: you've got to deal with these basic things. Sage: So you really want to minimize carbs, cut out all forms of sugar, because all of this is beating the candida. Eventually, one day, you will be able to bring it back in moderate amounts, as you've rebuilt your whole gut microbiome. But for now, you really want to cut it down. And you're going to see tremendous ancillary benefits from this, aside from just the candida? You're going to be able to start burning ketones as a fuel source and start burning fat, so you're probably going to experience some great weight loss, some people are probably going to enjoy that. And when you're burning these ketones for fuel and burning fat as fuel, healthy fats, you're able to produce far more ATP, which is your pure cellular energy, than when you're burning glucose as fuel. So you're going to have a lot better energy, once you transition. Sage: It can be a little challenging as your body first is transitioning to burning fat as fuel. But once you get there it's pretty amazing. And you'll learn to get creative with stevia and things like this that can still give you the pleasure of sweetness in your life, you don't have to say goodbye to that. There's many ways, we put tons of recipes on this stuff on our YouTube channel. And so that's the first step, is cutting out all these things that are feeding the candida. Sage: And then, what are you going to go after it with? One of the best that I found was Pau D'arco tea. It's one of the most powerful, natural, antifungal herbs coming out of the Amazon. You can make a really nice tea with that, it goes great as the base of any hot elixir, or you could just be sipping it on its own, all the time. And then two of the other very powerful herbs for me, the tonics that we all know and love are Reishi mushroom and Chaga. Sage: Chaga for me was especially impactful. I was doing some nice tinctures and capsules but where I really started experiencing the benefits of it was when I would get the raw chunks of Chaga mushroom and cook them for three hours into a real strong water extraction, freeze it overnight so that the water gets inside the cell walls, these cell's walls that are super hard that you can't digest? Actually busts them open as it freezes, then boil it again the next day and make it super strong, and I was getting into drinking it regularly. That was a huge assist in my journey against candida. Mason: So ... Yeah, go for it. Sage: Oh I'm just getting on a roll. Mason: So, well actually before. I want to keep you going, but I just want to comment on two things there and Dan, get your two cents in. Mason: That's a really appropriate use of the ketogenic diet. I really like ketogenesis as a distinction in what's ... in a way to possibly get us losing weight that's excessive and actually shouldn't be there? And also getting our mitochondria rocking to the extent that we can, for a time, get off sugars and get into this state where our metabolism can get a bit of a reset and it's a little bit of a breath of fresh air for our immune system for a time as well. Rather than just, go after it, get shredded, nonstop, don't ever not be keto. Mason: I don't know what your sense of that is, but we've discussed it a couple of times on the podcast and it's come up with one of Tahnee's conversations with a practitioner in terms of like, for women. An appropriate time to use ketogenesis and when it's not actually that useful? And we've spoken about it, Dan, in terms of what that excessive fat can do to go and contribute it over too much of a long period to gut permeability thanks to the off-gassing that that excessive fat gives through the bacteria. Mason: But I just wanted to really like ... I like that distinction that you just made there, Sage, I think that's for most people as casting a wide net. That seems like a sensible time to be using ketogenesis. Sage: Yeah. I think, you know there are anti-aging benefits of it in terms of minimizing glycation and things of that nature. And I think it's a transition diet, something you do for a time period to really change your inner terrain and external appearance and everything. And then probably long-term more of a cyclical ketogenic diet is probably the more beneficial thing, where you go in for a bit and out for a bit. And it's more of a natural flow. Mason: And of course, Pau D'arco. I think we're three massive Pau D'arco fans, coming from the lapacho tree in the Amazon. Heavily a part of my healing protocol. I hit it for probably a couple of years I had it constant rotation in strong amounts before it was time for me to then cycle off. Sage: You get to where you don't even want to think about it anymore. Just, you hit a point where, okay. I've had enough, I'm good. Mason: Yeah, I've had it absolutely enough. And that is, I think that's a really appropriate way to let your body govern, you know? Because of course, with any herb, especially a herb that has strong antifungal, antimicrobial actions, you're going to want to cycle off that at some point. Because your body's going to want to have the breathing room to go and do its thing and regulate. Mason: I just wanted to throw my support behind those. Pau D'arco had such an incredible, such an incredible impact on me moving ... I don't think I even mentioned the fact that I did, that was my catalyst, was candida, in getting into this. I was having fungal eruptions on my skin and a suppressed immune system. I've told the story I think on the podcast a couple of times, but it was definitely for me likewise, that combination of Chaga mushroom and Reishi mushroom, but then I'd use a base of Pau D'arco tea, and that's a very simple herbal approach. Mason: Then I had He Shou Wu coming in and nourishing my kidneys in the beginning, and that was the beginnings for me. Getting off the, of course I got off gluten, I got off the grains. I got off the conventional western diet, which is very suppressive to the spleen Chi and it definitely was to mine, and it was really suppressing my digestive capacity. And I was able to bounce back pretty quick, especially with those three primary herbs, the two mushies, and the Pau D'arco bark, and then the He Shou Wu coming in and supporting. Mason: And after I want to hear all your awesome rambling Sage, but I want to let everyone know that after this we're going to dive into the mushies. Sage: Yeah, so those are my first two pillars really, is starve the candida and get in the beneficial herbs that are going to help clean things up in there. And then you've cleared it out, and what are you going to put in there? You're not just going to leave a blank slate and let the candida come back in all over again like you did with antibiotics. You messed up once, don't do it again. So now, we want to introduce really great bacteria into the gut. So it's good to be taking some probiotics. Sage: I'm really a fan of taking spore based probiotics, or ones that are shown to have efficacy in actually making it through and setting up shop in the gut, rather than being killed off somewhere higher up? Maybe in the stomach by digestive acids and things like that? SO rather than just looking at the number of colony forming units, which is what's advertised, you actually have to do a little deeper digging to see if the company's actually had testing done, to show the level of survivability, which makes a huge, huge difference. You can have a trillion-strain probiotic formula that all gets killed off in the gut. You don't get anything from it, or you can have a 30 billion and all 30 billion survive and make it through and set up shop and are doing all sorts of work for you. So it really makes a big difference, whether it's surviving or not. Sage: And then getting on fermented foods, was a big part for me. Tons of sauerkraut, fermented vegetables ... Drinking coconut water kefir was really supportive for me, and yeah. That's the fermented side of things, and those for me were the three main pillars. Sage: You know a few other herbs that were beneficial were, like occasionally using a aged kyolic garlic extract was also supportive for me. One time early on I heard someone say, oh yeah you should juice a whole head of raw garlic. Candida will freak out about that. Holy crap, I had the worst burn, I pretty much gave myself an ulcer in the stomach from that. So don't juice a whole head of raw garlic and try drinking that. It's not a good idea. Learn from my mistake. Mason: Yeah, you lose your friends, you lose your intestinal lining. Sage: It was painful, man. Mason: That's so good. But hey, I think it's awesome that everyone can learn from our fanatical mistakes. Because I've definitely gone down that road. Mason: Yeah, I love it. I love that it's simple, I love that it's methodical, I think that it's really ... Over the years I've seen that same combination coming up again an again and again when you go through all the complexity and all the confusion in terms of what you should and shouldn't be eating and drinking, basically these are the core pillars in terms of what's going to get you from A to B in terms of healing as soon as possible. You mentioned Body Ecology, I think that's really ... I think you kind of consider that the Bible of the anti-candida diet, is that right? Sage: Yeah. It's a great place for anyone who's thinking they might be dealing with a candida issue to start out and get a good set of basic information and approaches and what foods can be beneficial and what not. Because they'll get a taste of things, and a feel of things I think from listening to us today and get some really good ideas. But it's good to have a kind of a manual, that you can really pore through and refer to and can address it from all sides. SO I highly recommend it to anyone that things they may be dealing with candida. Read the Body Ecology Diet book. Mason: Love it bro. Mason: Dan, what's your take? When you're entering into this what foods are you bringing in, what foods are you eliminating, are there any distinctions in terms of any particular constitutional elements that you like to take into account? Dan: Yeah, definitely and I'm one of those practitioners where, I probably do the least amount of dietary manipulation compared to a lot of practitioners. What I typically do is, apart from the obvious things, things such as alcohol, excessive caffeine use, refined sugars. Usually if we can take dairy and gluten-containing grains out of the diet and lower the amount of starches? I generally don't do too much above and beyond that in the initial stages. A, because of the amount that it puts onto the patient who is already compromised to some degree under this burden of stress, and so we just want to take out those really common sort of insults to allow the inflammation to kind of just settle down in the gut. Dan: But I think probably what we perhaps should've mentioned a little bit earlier is just movement and sweating, and we talked about sauna of course. But sunlight and movement are massive for candida. When I treat people that have chronic yeast issues, they're different people when you consider how they're presentation looks in winter compared to summer. And that I attribute largely to the upgrade they get from their immune system when their vitamin D level are optimized? Because we know that with optimized vitamin D levels we're producing higher amounts of our body's own antimicrobial substances like [inaudible 00:47:54]. Which has been shown to be stronger than many, many, many botanicals when tested in terms of destructing biofilms and getting viral load and bacterial load down and so forth. Dan: Movement's huge. You know lymphatic detoxification, that's massive as well. To ensure the person is moving and sweating and getting adequate sunlight. Dry skin brushing, that's effective as well. But at particular sort of point in treatment I like to then depending on the person's constitution introduce some gentle biofilm destructors as well. It's one thing to bring in antifungal herbs, but if the immune system can't see them, the shell of these critters isn't cracked up to allow their contents to be exposed to these botanicals or our immune system, then we're kind of not getting as much bang for our buck. So compounds like N-Acetyl Cysteine, absolutely brilliant for breaking up biofilm, really good for supporting the liver as well and glutathione production, which is our body's master antioxidant and you want prime levels of that anytime you're doing any sort of changes to the gut ecosystem or detoxification. The good old, Pau D'arco and cat's claw tea combo I found to be personally really successful and I think that's probably one of the first things you and I ever jammed about back at the markets years ago. Mason: Yeah man. For sure, and I think I can attest to Sage's love for cat's claw, una de gato, as well. Everyone's like, oh my gosh you guys are eating cat's claws? It's just a bark, everybody. I've got to just mention that. Sage: [inaudible 00:49:31]. Mason: I get that every now and then. Mason: Yeah sorry Dan, I had to get that little joke in there. Dan: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. So, yeah. In addition to that, pomegranate I have found to be just absolutely magnificent when it comes to any pathogenic overgrowth. I can't speak highly enough about that particular herb. I haven't found any other botanicals that simultaneously lower things like bacteria and candida, whilst up-regulating good bacteria at the same time. So pomegranate tincture is definitely going into the protocol for anyone who has any sot of fungal overgrowth. Dan: Apart from that, once you're doing the biofilm work, the person's moving and sweating, the vitamin D is optimized, and the dietary foundations are on point, you do have to think about the liver and all the metabolites that you're breaking down. Because the liver ultimately has the job of buffering and keeping the oil clean. And again, that feeds back into using things like N-Acetyl Cysteine, Alpha-Lipoic Acid, good old and St. Mary's Thistle, burdock, dandelion root just as teas can be really pivotal as well. Dan: Just, garbage in, garbage out. Just get people thinking about the more you're killing off, and the debris you're producing that has to be exiting the system because you can get that enterohepatic recirculation, and you don't want that, because the bugs will just set up shop in a different area of the body. Mason: So can I, I'm just going to before we move on. I just really want to bring a summary to this aspect of treatment, where we've identified that perhaps we do have an overgrowth of candida. We get into the tweakings of the diet, whether we do it gently, and I would agree that it's a psychological conversation of whether someone's going to go down the hardcore, phase 2 Body Ecology when it's like no sugars whatsoever. Maybe some green apple, I think at this stage- Sage: It's Phase One, Full Intensity. And then Phase Two is, like, gentler as you've gotten better. Yeah. Phase One is the Full Intensity. Mason: And also just making distinct what Dan was saying there, what are the core things that I'd be introducing if they're in a state where it's just not possible for them to make those changes? And that would be, again, whether it's going to work or not, these are ... this is what everyone's going to have to have that real dance within themselves, I think that's safe to say, and what's possible for you. And then you're going to have to manage your expectations with that. And as you said, Dan, I don't know, what were you saying dietarily with your core? Refined grains, excessive sugars, definitely getting off processed sugars, I think that's ... if you're on processed sugars you're going to basically be shooting yourself in the candida foot every single time you try to jump at him. Mason: So we've got that aspect, you know? Possibly looking at ketogenesis for a particular time, and so basically we've got that dietary component. Within talking, within a herbal sense and a treatment sense of getting our nervous system really toned and getting us in a calm place where our body can actually heal, getting our foundations of our Jing through Jing herbs. Like you mentioned, He Shou Wu, Rehmannia, Cordyceps, Eucommia Bark, and I think you mentioned Cistanche as well, Sage, and also you're going to get a good crossover there. And you don't have to have all of these, you know. You pick your herb, and Ashwagandha is also a beautiful one that's going to have those jewel effects on the nervous system and on the kidneys. Mason: Then we've gone to talk about, right. What herbs are we starting to include and what supplements are we starting to include to actually start clearing these out. Medicinal mushrooms we're going to go into next, but that's a huge aspect of building up basically the Jing of the immune system, which is always implicated. I can definitely always ... Definitely always, that's never the case. But I can generally say that you're going to see an immune suppression when it comes to candida. I think that's a fair thing to say, would you guys agree? Sage: Absolutely. Because you're very vulnerable to other things happening and taking place. Mason: Absolutely. So then we see both your suggestions in terms of what we're going to be getting coming in. We're going to get the herbs like Pau D'arco, the Chagas, the Reishis, Maitakes, and turkey tails are always going to be wonderful bringing those in to fortify the immune system. And you've talked about N-Acetyl Cysteine and started talking about this other aspect of this phase, which Sage, I know you're all over. And now that we're here Dan I really appreciate you bringing up the biofilms, the ability for us to actually break down. I don't know where you're atin terms of just describing what these biofilms actually are. I know there's a bit of calcification involved in them and I know the immune system especially has a hard time identifying that there is something there behind this little encasing, or this little barnacle, in which the infection lies beneath. It's one of ... Its survival, opportunistic mechanisms to not become identified by the immune system. Mason: And at that time so I just want to talk just a little bit more on that stage within this protocol, of actually knocking out these biofilms so our immune system can start getting this candida infection under control. So I just want to reiterate: your favorites for breaking down these biofilms, and then I just want to have another quick little conversation around opening up detox channels, supporting liver, and also my favorite, including binders, like clays within the diet to help moving these things out. And then also inclusive in this conversation is going to be, the saunas. We don't have to go too much further into it, but if you've got that going on, you're going to be definitely opening up that channel of detoxification through the skin. Mason: So in terms of knocking out these biofilms, your faves Dan? Dan: Pomegranate first and foremost. N-Acetyl Cysteine which we mentioned, and another one from the silkworm, Serrapeptase, I'm sure you guys are quite familiar with as well. Sage: Yep, absolutely. Mason: Another big favorite. Dan: Yeah. The only caution with Serrapeptase is long-term, it can ... Let me rewind a little bit. Good bacteria as well do form biofilm, and so there's a concern that long term use of agents like Serrapeptase and N-Acetyl Cysteine can also crack up good biofilms, which you don't want. Mason: Mm. And that's like, it's natural with anything that's a treatment protocol or enzymes therapy, with the Serrapeptase, you want to make sure that you're cycling it and respecting the treatment period, and you're not going in an “altering” the system of the body too long-term. Would you like the use of MSM in there? Have you ever found that useful? Dan: Yeah I do, I do like MSM and that's a big one I'll use in conjunction with this protocol particularly if people have joint-related issues. Which as Sage said, we often see that with candida, these fungal metabolites get passed around and float around through the body. It can cause quite painful and swollen joints and brain fog. That's another thing, with brain fog the components that get broken up with candida compounds actually form acid aldehyde, and that's why you get people who say, I feel like I'm drunk; I'll go to work and I just feel like I'm wasted and I can't think properly; my short-term memory's gone. And that's because of this acid aldehyde that the candida produced. Dan: SO yeah, sorry. Kind of went off on a little tangent there, but- Mason: No it's really funny when you see those news articles of people who they found had so much fermentation going on in the gut they were tested to be drunk and they hadn't had any alcohol at all. So bizarre, but it's true life. Dan: Next thing we know there'll be pulled over and getting breath tested and being fined as having [crosstalk 00:57:19]. Mason: Soon enough. You want to get tested for candida? Get pulled over and the cops [inaudible 00:57:23]. Dan: Yeah, imagine that. Imagine we get to the point that we're really concerned about the immunological health of our population. Random candida testing everybody. Pull over, like, parasite testing, you know? We've just got your back, everyone. Mason: Concerns your driving safety. Sorry Dan. Dan: Do not operate maChinery while candida is present. Mason: Yeah. Dan: But yeah, so to summarize. N-Acetyl Cysteine, Serrapeptase, the pomegranate. Good old green tea. Sounds very boring and we're used to hearing that but that is so, so good for candida in particular. We can talk about things like lauric acid and caprylic acid, they're often good additions to do particularly in those stubborn cases. Dan: The other one I didn't mention is berberine. Berberine is really efficient at cracking up biofilms and getting on top of ... And this is what I love about herbal medicine. It's like we're isolating candida but we know we're going to have a good effect on viruses and bacteria at the same time. So if someone does come in and they've got known candida issues, but they also have [inaudible 00:58:32], we know that using agents like berberine and pomegranate we're hitting both on the same head, if that makes sense. Mason: Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative). Mason: Absolutely. I mean, yeah, it gets a little bit different when you're using herbals rather than isolates. Beautiful list there, Dan. I really like the Serrapeptase- MSM combination for breaking down those biofilms and definitely going to have to get a little bit more into pomegranate, definitely through my support behind the berberine. Mason: Sage, in term

Overcast Link.  My Guest this week is Mason Peck, Professor of Aerospace and Systems engineering at Cornell University and former Chief Technologist at NASA. Previously Mason was a was a Principal Fellow at Honeywell Aerospace and has an extremely colorful history we get into during the podcast. The topic of this conversation is how NASA works, alternatives to the current innovation ecosystem - like crowdsourcing and philanthropy, and also the interplay between government, academia, and private industry. Key Takeaways You can have an organization full of smart motivated people that doesn't produce great results if all the incentives are set up to avoid risk. There's been a shift in where different parts of the innovation pipeline happen. More has shifted universities and startups from larger companies and the government but the systems of support haven't caught up. Taking a portfolio approach to technology and innovation is a powerful concept that we don't think about enough. Links Mason’s Lab (Space System Design Studio) Website Mason on Twitter (@spacecraftlab) The Office of the Chief Technologist at NASA NIAC (NASA Innovative Advanced Concepts Directorate) Breakthrough Starshot Mars One Transcript   Intro   [00:00:00] This podcast I talk to Mason Peck about NASA alternatives to the current Innovation ecosystem like crowdsourcing and philanthropy and also the interplay between government Academia and Private Industry. Officially Mason is a professor of Aerospace and systems engineering at Cornell University, but I think of him as Cornell space exploration guy. He's done research on everything from doing construction in space using superconductors to making spacecraft that can fit in the palm of your hand and cost cents instead of millions of dollars from 2011 to 2013. He served as NASA's Chief technologist. Don't worry. We'll get into what that means in the podcast before becoming a professor.   What is a Chief Technologist   Ben: You spent several years as the chief technologist at Nasa. Can you explain for us what the chief technologist at Nasa actually does. I think that it's a usual role that many people have not heard of. Mason: Sure, NASA's [00:01:00] Chief technologist sets strategy and priorities for NASA's. Let's call them technology Investments. It's helpful to think of it in investment context because it really is that you know, what you're doing is spending money taxpayer money. You want to be a responsible Steward of that money. You're spending that money on. Something like a bet that you hope will pay off in the future. So taking a portfolio approach that problem probably makes sense. At least it made sense to me. I was the chief technologist for NASA for the over two years started in the end of 2011 and continued to little bit into 2014, but mostly it was the two years 2012-2013. And I may just offer it was a wonderful time to be doing that difficult from the standpoint of the budget. There are a lot of challenges at that time budgetarily, but good from the standpoint of lots of great support from the White House the office of Science and Technology policy when I was there was particularly aggressive and committed and [00:02:00] passionate about doing what they thought was the best for the nation and the just the degree of energy and expertise some of those people made it a wonderful ecosystem to work in.   How long term were bets?   Ben: Awesome, and going off of that portfolio approach with the bats.  how long term were those bets? Like what was the the time scale on them? Mason: In the portfolio approach that we tried to? Take some of those bets were the long game. I suppose, you know, 20 years out. There was a program known as NIAC Nayak the NASA Innovative advanced concepts program, which placed bets on to keep using this metaphor. Ideas that probably would pay off in a couple of decades. And by the way, that seems like a hopelessly long time but for spacecraft that's maybe a generation of spacecraft. In fact spacecraft Generations in technological sense almost mirrors the human Generations, if you think of a human generation being 20 years, you could [00:03:00] probably look across the history of space technology. In spot these Rafi 20-year slices where things seem to happen. So some of the investors are definitely 20 years plus others, whereas near term as possible, but it's not just the the duration of time that is how long it would take for these Investments to pay off. It was also about the type of investment that is the ways in which technology was done.   Different types of tech investment   So, If I can go on about that briefly the me, please you say that it's one thing to as one thing to solicit ideas from the traditional offers of technology or DARPA calls the performers, you know, you go to a Lockheed Martin or university what I've Cornell University of just for one example, you go to university and you ask for a certain result and then they can probably deliver that kind of result. There's all the non-traditional offers. For example, when the NASA we would start these challenges or competitions. [00:04:00] The idea was to bring in non-traditional providers people who normally wouldn't have bothered or even have been considered qualified to solve a NASA problem, but through a challenge like a coding challenge a hackathon or maybe a more substantial dollar amount. Prize offered a million dollars for electric aircraft or something through that mechanism you bringing different kinds of people to solve the problem and that's not only the other that's not the only other dimension. Another dimension is whether the problem you're solving is something that is a known problem or something you feel like if you build it they will come. Either that freezes the death to death to investment, right if you say something like I've got this great idea but no one's asking for a right now, but trust me if we build it somebody it will buy it that is not what a venture capitalist for example wants to hear right? However. It is a distinct type of futurism, right?   Mission Pull vs Mission Push   There's what we call pull and push Mission pull refers to [00:05:00] when we have a mission that NASA let's say returning samples from the surface of Mars or sending humans to a distant star. I mean, these are not necessarily necessary. What's this if they are then? The Jews demand certain technological solutions certain Innovations, or if you come up with idea that no one's asking for is their value in that and I'll give you the example of a say spacecraft that are the size of your fingernail right now. You probably know been that this is a topic we were working out of Cornell. I guarantee you no one's asking for that. I can prove that by virtue of how many proposals have been turned down. The basic fact is there are uses for this now. Maybe there aren't enough that are compelling and I'll accept that but the reason no one's asking is because no one knows it can exist and that's not a reason to say no, so. Again, think of the mission pull versus what we call technology push direction if we can come up with a solution that people maybe could use [00:06:00] a little value in working on that think of the dimension. As I said before of different kinds of offers. What are the sources for technology and then of course, there's the timeframe Dimension. So there's at least three dimensions that you might think of for the. Portfolio of Technology Investments That least we took it to kind of NASA and that maybe helps other environments to   Non-traditional vs Traditional Offers   Ben: yeah,  are there some good examples of  non-traditional offers really succeeding where the traditional offers did not. Mason: Yes, two ways to answer that one is for some problems. They are simply not profitable for a lot of companies even as an example. I major company might spend a hundred thousand to maybe over a billion dollars, maybe multiple millions of dollars. Just writing the proposal to a government agency do some work and it's not at all an exaggeration. You know, that's really not the [00:07:00] case. Where a small mom-and-pop company. But for larger companies, I see a Honeywell or a Boeing or Lockheed or some other defense kind tractor, you know for sure they spend that kind of money. So the and that's the total money. They spend let alone The Profit they might get in that which is maybe on the order of 10% or something. So you got to really want. To do this work to invest the money for a proposal into it and something at the scale of I mentioned Nayak before right the NASA innovated the best huh something that small it's simply not worth large company writing a proposal that they're not going to get there not even get the cost of proposal back probably now there may be other reasons, but let's let's give me those for a second. Let's think about the the other way of answering that question. What am I people who just want to work with NASA? There are people out there that are passionate. About what NASA doesn't and you do you'll be hard pressed by the way to find other government agencies and probably even other businesses with the brand loyalty if you like or their reputation that in Mass it has yeah, so I'll [00:08:00] give you the example of Tom ditto titl was his last name. He's got had a couple of Nyack Awards over the years. The first one was I think in 2005 ish? He had this brilliant idea for a new kind of spectrometer. And for your I know you probably know but not everyone knows this spectrometer is a device that looks at it a light and finds out what colors it is. And I'm looking at the Spectrum of a let's say reflected light off of a rock or something will tell you about its chemical may make up so spectrometers the useful thing for astronomy. Well, Tom didn't came up with the idea of using diffraction grating. It's that that colorful rainbow mirror looking stuff. There was all the rage in the 1970s. So but he had a way of using that to make a spectrometer and he would have been a very long spectrometer. In fact, maybe even on the surface of the Moon a super long kilometers long spectrometer arguably a crazy idea, but absolutely brilliant and solve the problem, but NASA didn't even know it needed to solve. Once against problem [00:09:00] that no Lockheed would propose but a Tom ditto would so Tom just wanted to work on this and he had a passion for it. He solved the problem and that was a cool example, and there's others just like it's so in an environment where you have Innovation where people can. Contribute, I guess I'll stay out of the goodness of their heart or because I like the idea of the challenge or maybe even for relatively small price. You'll get different kinds of solutions and that's an interesting possibility.   What would you do to unlock grassroots innovators?   Ben: how would you encourage that even further? So  say you you control the entire United States government?  what would you do Beyond Nyack anything to sort of unlock those people? Mason: To clarify for your listeners. I have no plans to take over the government. Yes. I'm willing if someone like to offer me the job, but that's not my forte. Well, so again, I let me let me go back to the example of prizes and challenges. This is a big deal with in the Obama Administration. [00:10:00] They were faced with this awkward problem of having lots of great ideas and basically no money to work within a Congress that was not supportive. (Prizes and Challenges) So what do you do? Well, you open up these opportunities to the nation maybe even to the world. So if you can come up with an away with a way of articulating the value of contributing, you know again in a way that makes the public or maybe just a few individuals wants to help. Depend on that altruistic nature that some people have that's when we dissolve a problem because it doesn't work in all cases. So rather than just offering a challenge where if you do it you get a medal. What about offering a prize prize competitions are interesting because first of all the the organization that offers the price doesn't necessarily spend money until they get a result. For example, the the orteig prize remember this one. This was the one that encouraged transatlantic flight. Yes. So, you know that that's one way to go. A $20,000 prize and [00:11:00] then you win it and you pay off your mortgage there have been others. Like I birthed an said that building the gossamer Albatross was away from to pay off his mortgage. And so there are there are some folks who are motivated by the prospect of a prize and again from for the funders perspective from a funding perspective. You're not going to pay until and unless you can get the solution you want. So that's interesting the other interesting feature about crowdsourcing a solution like that is you might get. People applying to solve your problem and you get the best one out of a thousand compare that to a typical again since we're talking Aerospace a typical Aerospace Contracting opportunity. You'll probably get responses that say NASA would offer millions of dollars for a new rocket. You're going to get doesn't maybe responses to that of which a half dozen maybe will be credible and it's going to be The Usual Suspects. It'll be it'll be Boeing and Lockheed and orbital sciences and maybe a few others well. What if that one in a thousand Solutions the one you really want offering an [00:12:00] opportunity that solicits such a large number of potential inputs really allows you to pick that best one the again the 2 Sigma 3 Sigma Solution which is kind of exciting possibility. So that's another way to go.   How do you pull out good ideas when they take resources?     Ben: to Riff on  that how other good ways of. Judging a solution before it requires a large amount of investment. So with this Crown funny I can imagine that it would get a lot of people. With ideas and you'd be able to go through the ideas and if there's one that immediately stands out as better than the rest or  is very clearly feasible often with things. You don't actually know if it's a good idea until you've tested it and you poured some resources into it and people might not have those. So is there any trick to  pulling out those ideas? Mason: One interesting interesting fact [00:13:00] about prize competitions is pretty clearly. You have to pitch it at the right dollar amount, you know after ten bucks, you're not going to get in. This is really what you want a prize where the prize might be the say 20 billion dollars the investment necessary to. That twenty billion dollars might be so prohibitive that you're only going to get a few players and once again, probably the usual suspects right? For instance. Let's say that we offered twenty billion dollars for whoever first built at the hotel on the moon. Okay, it sounds like an interesting idea maybe but to develop that infrastructure that capability is going to cost billions begin with and and maybe someone will win the 20 billion dollar Enterprise, but I really need to get what you want. So first of all the the scale of the prize. Matters, but let me go back to this portfolio idea we were talking about before if you have the freedom to manage a portfolio of Technology investment your opportunity then is to think about those high-risk investments. Just the way you would have to say in your own eventual portfolio think about high risk Investments as a way to pick winners [00:14:00] you invest a little bit the high-risk stuff across the large board and maybe a few of them. But you have to be winners. Well, then maybe you go investible bit more in those and soon as saying the case of Nayak, right? And let's say that we like to Tom Dittos spectrometer so much that the $100,000 that he got for building this which is not peanuts by the way, but it's still small from Aerospace perspective that hundred thousand dollars a small investment. But in a subsequent phase maybe he gets ten times that amount of money maybe he starts a small company. I think he is company something like ditto tool and die company or something like this maybe ditto Tool company gets a factor of 10 or investment in the in a follow-on phase. In fact, maybe even a subsequent phase could be a hundred times as much. So as time goes on as the maturity of the technology increases as you continually refine the portfolio allowing the failed investment to just sort of Fall by the wayside. You can concentrate on those ones that are [00:15:00] successful which is first of all a reason why you have to invest in some high-risk stuff. You got to take some risks right and then second if you. And if you have a portfolio approach you have the opportunity to use statistics to your benefit. I can let's say if I'm NASA invest in a hundred a crazy ideas every year and if only one or two of them pan out, well, that's great those one or two. Probably something I really care about.   How do you incentivize innovation within NASA?   Ben:  that makes a lot of sense and  in that portfolio. So in a in excellent Financial portfolio, you measure success by how much money you get by your return. There's a number and that's you want to maximize that number that you're getting back NASA's portfolio doesn't quite fit into that. So, how do you how do you measure how well a portfolio is doing? How do you incentivize people? To within NASA to really push the best Innovations forward. [00:16:00] Mason: Yeah several things going on there. First of all, you got to take a look at the organization's culture. You have to take a look at how they respond to Innovation. My experience with NASA is that it's full of brilliant and committed people at the same time. There's a tendency for the younger folks to be very forward-looking and interestingly for the most senior leadership be fairly forward-looking somewhere in the middle. There's a like a lot of problem, but it would have a low spot would have us soft spot where people in more than elsewhere can be. (Risk aversion) Careerist that is the not so willing to take risks. They want to keep their jobs. They want to be seen as effective. And again taking on risks can be not looked upon well that in their opinion. So so that's tricky right here these different populations in any large organization and you got to come up with a way of communicating the value of innovation across the board, right? That's one of the challenges making this sort of thing work. Suppose a lot more that you can see about about culture and I [00:17:00] suppose every culture is a little different but one of those the hardest parts in making Innovation stick is to communicate to folks that it's a permanent solution what I found again using NASA's an example, and I've also work with other companies by the way for which this is true. There's a tendency to think that these technology investment initiatives or this Innovation is initiative is just the flavor of the day, you know, it's it's a it's our flash in the pan or whatever metaphor you like. It's a temporary State of Affairs. So there are people who are afraid if they start to go to heavy toward Innovation and man maybe quit their job of doing program management and study to become a radical innovator. That whatever leadership has been pushing that is going to disappear eventually and it'll go back to business as usual and then they'll be left without a job. Right? So there's risk seen in this process of taking an innovation because you not so sure how permanent is going to be. So, you know, how do you Embrace that problem as someone trying to effect change just [00:18:00] promising it's not going to go away probably won't convince folks. They've been around long enough. It's in your organization's happen. They've seen issues come and go how do you convince them? So I wish I had an answer to that other than to say that it's only through longevity of an innovation process that people really start to embrace it and what I'm talking about when I say longevity. I mean really on the order of five plus years you really would like to have almost a generation of folks grow up in an environment where that Innovation is taken to be the order of the day.   Strengths and Weaknesses of each sector   Ben:  something like that. I've I don't have an answer to but that I see consistently is that there are these these timescale mismatches where people's careers are sort of judged in maybe two to five year segments where if you nothing's happened in the past two to five years. People are like well, what are you what are you doing? And then the really the the Innovations take something like. You know seven to 10 years to to really mature so it's very [00:19:00] hard to align those incentives and I'm just always always looking for answers around that. I you mentioned that you've seen this at a bunch of different organizations  you've literally been in every every sector right you've been in Industry. You've been in Academia you've been in government. Do you have any sense of what role each of them should ideally occupy in an innovation ecosystem and what strengths and weaknesses each has. Mason:  That's a wonderful question and probably beyond my Ken but I will I will offer for those of your listeners and you as well who want to go back rewind a little bit to the World War II time frame thinking about this fellow named vannevar Bush and then you've probably encountered thanks to him and his Innovations we have what we have now where [00:20:00] universities take on what we call fundamental research which combines both basic and applied research and then come. The government take on the next step which is implementation in to say potentially demonstration or something operational system. This is at least the way it's shaking out maybe the original town with a bit different but that's kind of how it shakes it out and people are fond of pointing to this Gap or this where they call it the. This Chasm between the Innovation that happens in universities and then the need for near term profit making investments in companies or low-risk politically safe Investments of the level of the government. There's a gap in their right and how do you feel that Gap? There are organizations like DARPA the defense Advanced research projects agency that are meant to fill that Gap and their NASA. We try creating programs that would fill that Gap and not surprisingly. There are there are still problems with that. So. We think of universities think of companies think of government that are clearly different motivations that drive each one of these. [00:21:00] I wonder if there isn't a different motivation entirely that might be more Global more Universal at the moment. We don't have it if we were ever. Oh, I don't know set upon by an alien horde we might pull together as a as a nation as a world and in all contribute a little bit differently to the way things are going but at the moment without any obvious. I'm cataclysm on the horizon and some might argue about climate change for the say we don't all agree that there's a cataclysm on Horizon. We're in these silos. So universities we innovate in a certain way. We innovate at the level of again. I'll call it basic and applied research. The government innovated the level when it works. Well policy when it doesn't work. Well the government tries to solve its own problems using its own expertise really really in my opinion. They should be going outside for that expertise and businesses solve problems in a way that maximizes shareholder value probably in the relatively near term. These are all I mean perfectly successful ways of pulling on [00:22:00] Innovation, but they're not the same. And they do lead to very idiosyncratic Solutions. Again. The question is isn't there something more General and broader. What do you think?   What's the correct system?   Ben: I would have I think I mean, I definitely you're the one being interviewed but I think that there's you've completely identified that Gap and I think that in my mind there's what it should really be is. Sort of a pipeline and that looking at what needs to be done and who is best incentivised to do it. So for example, the. It's stuff where there's this very long long time Horizon uncertain outcomes sort of like big our research would come from universities with some light support from the government. But then as soon as that needed to be pulled together into something that required a lot of [00:23:00] coordination and a lot of money then perhaps the government or a company would come in depending on. What the real outcome would be but you know if I had a real and like the whole point of all of this is to try to figure out a real answer. I don't have a good one at the moment. (Shift in funding methods) Mason: Yes, happy birthday thinking about this other thing. I guess I could offer is the way we fund research in this country has as changed over the years there was a time and it might surprise some of your listeners to think about this there was a time when as a university researcher. You probably didn't write any Grant proposals or if you did it was one every few years. These days most people in say my position where I'm working at a well-regarded research-intensive university. I write 10 to 20 individual research proposals a year of which a small faction or funded is probably less than 10% or funded. And I think I'm actually doing pretty [00:24:00] well frankly for that ten percent. There are folks who go years without getting any of proposal from the despite submitting hundreds of Grant proposals for the amount of time involved in writing these proposals. It's worse and worse every year the money gets Tighter and Tighter and you know, what do you do one answer is that we've. We've morphed toward this model and maybe it's not what we all want what we have right now in a previous age where the government more directly supported universities where research was done regardless of funding you got different outcomes, but that was a relatively short period of time in our in our history. If you go back a little farther this a 19th century before for the most part research was done either by the independently wealthy or by people with some kind of philanthropic back. You know the prince of some new name your favorite to European potentate, the I the prince of whatever would would fund your research into discovering new molecules. And that was just the way it worked. Yeah. So these models have changed [00:25:00] radically over the years and interesting question is where this might go if in fact something like crowdsourcing or. The ubiquity of information and access to it through the internet really matures to inform how we do research. I do not know what the future holds. I know you've been thinking about the sorts of things in the past. Yeah, but it's interesting question. But what this looks like what the research infrastructure or ecosystem looks like when we can vote up or down a good research projects. Or maybe when crowdfunding can be the basis for what research gets undertaken may not be good. But it's another way to do it.   How good is crowdfunding   Ben: Would you trust a large population of people to be able to. Would you trust them to allocate research dollars?  I ask this based on the fact that you see a lot of these articles shouting an outrage that the government is funding someone to I don't know like walk around [00:26:00] and look at snails or something ridiculous. But then you could make the argument that  well you look at snails enough and then you find this one snail that has some chemical compound that then could be synthesized into medicine.  So would you trust crowdfunding? What would that get become Mason:  I probably wouldn't trust them as far as I can throw them. I guessed another way to think about it is there are I probably would not trust the crowd to vote for one thing. I might be trust them statistically if we could fund many things out of such a population and that's where again the benefit of large numbers comes in. I even though I think that the public generally might get some things wrong from time to time and maybe somewhat credulous and believe strange things on the whole they're strangely predictive. I'll give you another quick story about that please years ago was probably 10 years ago DARPA had this interesting idea. Don't remember exactly who DARPA but isn't. [00:27:00] Dandiya, if you look at how crowd Source information works, it seems surprisingly accurate and predictive. So what if we created a stock market for terrorist attacks, and we had people as actually placed bets on but you know invest in Futures, but. Terrorist attract attack Futures the the outcome would be people voting to maximize their return on their Investments would use all that work release or most information that we know is out there and would identify the most likely terrorist outcomes of those terrorists outcomes associated with say that again that are continually Rising stock something out there. Is motivating people to think that that's like the outcome now to issues, of course number one is incredibly crass and in extremely poor taste to defy such a thing [00:28:00] and. And Interpol was I think a little tone deaf, you know offering that as a project because it was very quickly jumped on by the me. Yeah. I can't believe how horrible these people are really thinking but they're not wrong in that the right kind of crowdsourcing can in fact the almost prescient almost almost. Telepathic or psychic in its ability to predict some things but not all things and that's where I say. You want to have a managed portfolio of this stuff. So every now and then maybe more often than not the crowd will be wrong. But if you give them the chance to run lots of different things, you'll both encourage A diversity of opinion which leads to different kinds of solutions now, that's a good thing and probably a statistical. Draping over all the different possibilities so that eventually the right answer can come out. So I think those two ingredients probably could make it work, but I'm very speculative about this right now. And again the DARPA stories interesting cautionary tale because as soon as that became public it just that went away in a [00:29:00] hurry.   What happened to grants?   Ben:   just to go back you mentioned that until recently people do University Research  only had to write one Grant every few years was that because the great sizes were much larger. Were they getting money from outside sources? Why was that? What changed? Mason: Yeah, that's interesting cause and effect will bit muddled and you can find other people probably better explain this history. But my quick version is something like this the kinds of research that we're done in the University's the kind of research was much more skewed toward the basic end of things pencil and paper theoretical development. And also the let's just be frank we knew less than we know now. So coming up with new stuff is a larger maybe than it was before I know if that's fair but I think that's just some research part of it. Yeah. So well there there you go. So first of all, we were solving different problems right now though. We are taking on a lot of the problems that actually you to be done in Industry. The famous example, of course is Bell [00:30:00] Labs right out of which the transistor came these days. The transistor will be developed within University and to develop a transistor or something analogous to it requires significant infrastructure Investments, not just pencil and paper. So even though the theory behind some conductors came out of University the actual practice of it came out of bell labs and there have been plenty of other examples like this. So I think actually industry has skewed away from doing research. Although there's a bit of emotion back toward it now, but it's nowhere what it used to be and then necessarily universities have taken a non not out of a sense of obligation, but rather because it's you know, there's a void and they rush to fill. But to fill it we need more money. So where does the money come from either comes from profit centers or come from the government with the government reducing tax income and also research investments in trouble for the 1980s. Now there's a new kind of Gap. It's the research Gap. So for the most part Industries not doing it and when University does do it. [00:31:00] It's spending a lot of a server for just bringing the funding. Got it. So you'd also argue probably that the universities are you not the best place for this to be done? You know, there is a lot of my opinion a lot of value in companies developing intellectual property. They keep it to themselves. They can make a profit on it. That's a huge motivator. What we do need a verse These almost exclusively is open. We publish it and basically anyone can pick it up and use it.   What do you think of breakthrough starshot and philanthropy?   Ben:  that makes a lot of sense. You also mentioned that  farther in the past a lot. There was a lot of funding that was being done by wealthy individuals and you're an advisor for breakthrough starshot. I believe which as far as I can tell is almost entirely bankrolled by wealthy individuals it seems like. Breakthrough starshot is sort of something that in the past. We would have expected NASA to do. Do you think that what do you what do you think about this [00:32:00] shift? Do you think that the wealthy individuals are going to start filling in that Gap where the pros and cons there? Mason: Well, first of all, I think that's a lot of what think it's a fact a lot of wealthy people certainly in the US have been filling that Gap. They have been funding a lot of research more than in the past. The the cliche is you start your computer. Can you sell it you make a billion dollars in new investment with that you really care about which is space exploration and that that that pattern has been repeated over and over Elon Musk for sure. Jeff Bezos for blue origin and there's been plenty of examples of this so, I don't know maybe maybe it's more than just a cliche. But anyway the going back to this question of will private individual Step Up. We have to an extent but they all have a certain something in it for [00:33:00] themselves that that was always the case has always been the case for privately funded science. Remember there are foundations. Now that still do fund Sciences. There's not as much there used to be but there are still these foundations, right? So the question is what kind of science do you get when you have a billionaire from to your. There's always going to be some idiosyncrasy associated with it and what we can take the Breakthrough starshot project as an example. Personally. I think it's a fantastic project. And for those of you who don't know the Breakthrough starshot project consists of coming up with a 20-year plan to build a spacecraft that could launch again in 20 years and take maybe 20 years to reach the closest star Proxima Centauri or maybe Alpha Centauri with the goal of returning some science data. Another three or four years after that depending on the light travel time. So that's a long duration project meets almost at the scale of a medieval Cathedral. I doubt that many of us on The Advisory Board will even [00:34:00] be alive to see that data come back if it ever does so it's not dangerous undertaking. It probably makes sense for that reason for it to be privately funded or funded by something like, you know a church, but these days the church does not fund science that way so it's not not a critique, but it's just it doesn't do that. Yeah, the way that they may be used to fund building Cathedrals. So these large projects like Cathedrals or Starships probably deserve a special kind of funding one thing I've discovered about em, it's not my own Discovery plenty of other people know this as well. I was just late to realizing it. Congress wants to fund things that they can take credit for okay, so it's going to be 2 4 or 6 years time frame at most where they want to see a return on their investment their investment being stepping up to be sure that some product project is funded. But so that's their return on investment timeframe and industries return on investment time frames in the sale of months. It takes [00:35:00] something like a billionaire or some other kind of philanthropic effort to fund a project that is longer than a few years. So if we really have aspirations that lie along this axis this temporal axis that makes us want to get a result in decades from now. We're going to have to look for funding source. That is not something governmental throughly not up to Industry. So I think there's a place for private investment for foundations or philanthropic. God is definitely that kind of thing so that you're not going to get funded by you know, the Air Force. Let's say or by orbital Sciences Corporation of Northrop Grumman Corporation,   Concerns about philanthropic time scales   Ben:  one concern that I always have about.  Philanthropic efforts is as you said there has to be something in it for people and when you're not able to get sort of a return on investment that's in money. Sometimes I've seen people be less patient because they [00:36:00] want to see progress on on a shorter time  scale. Do you do worry about that at all? Mason: Well, you know as I said, there's always this risk if you have a single investor, let's say again some billionaire to be named later that he or she will pull out the funding based on some whim they decide rather than funding a Starship that rather fun to the purchase of a massive sculpture massive bronze bust of him or herself to be placed in his front yard. Who knows? Yeah, and I'm not speaking about Yuri Milner here. Let me say for my few interactions of him. He seems like a legitimately. Two passionate scientist you really does care about knowledge for the sake of humanity. But it's also clear that he wants to be known as the person who successfully they support this work and things nothing wrong with that. So just like other examples the past of philanthropic contributions. You you probably want your name attached to these discoveries and that's again, that's fine [00:37:00] with me.   Experience With Different Organizations   Ben: and  shifting gears a little bit. You've had your research funded by many different organizations both inside the government and in Private Industry. Have you had different experiences with that? And  which ones are your favorite or what did your favorite ones do and what is your least favorite ones do? Mason: So that's a long story. So I'm gonna give you an answer which sounds like I'm itself said during and that maybe that's correct. The answer is when you get left alone to do the job. It works really well. Now I totally understand that if let's say I'm a member of a government organization or industry. I need to feel that my money is being well spent I want to check in and I don't want to end up with a yoyodyne propulsion systems. If you remember the movie Buckaroo Banzai, you don't want that kind of contractor gone amok kind of phenomenon. I get that [00:38:00] at the same time too much micromanagement sort of defeats the purpose of doing fundamental research. You know, the whole idea is we don't have a thing yet. We need to create that thing and that Act of Creation is not something you can exactly legislator specify the requirements. So I'm a little uneasy at of the idea about the idea that very tight control over the act of invention is going to give you a good result at the same time. Yeah, you need to be responsible stewards of whatever money you're using to fund Sky research. So I see where that comes comes from. I don't want to give a specific example that's going to get me in trouble with the essential functions, but I will say it government agency a government agency collaborating with us on a project. The project involved a few technological innovations after we scoped out the project with this government agency, the the folks involved at the government agency and supervising our work decided that work was so cool. They want to do it themselves. So they went ahead and try to make themselves removing. [00:39:00] Most of what I viewed as the really Innovative parts of the work leaving us with some fairly wrote tasks which there were still paying for. So, I guess I'm kind of glad to take the money but. Then the problem was because he's relatively unimaginative tasks the government agency decided it would be very helpful for us to be very tightly supervised to do these simple tasks. They were very good at and that led to a lot of in my opinion wasted money on things some example for this example is we were building an object out of some official part. Some of you can find at a hardware store, right? The reason we were doing so is because those parts a lot of design margin that is to say you could you can pressurize them or you could add electricity or whatever it was and the parts would not fail. They were made for Consumer use their super safe and excessively over design and it which is great actually very safe. But the sponsor wanted us to do value in [00:40:00] all these with a super detailed analysis using what's known as finite element analysis element analysis where you break it into little mathematical chunks and put in the computer. They wanted us to test it. They want to do all sorts of things for parts. You could buy at the hardware store which you buy every day without thinking about because they're super safe because they're built that way that was a ton of a waste of time. So so that was a very negative experience I think. II chalk it up to my naive tank and working with that sponsor. I now know what kind of work to specify for that sponsor at the same time. It was not going to be a relationship of whatever worked. Well for what it's worth. We took that project and we're doing ourselves now and we've made more progress in the last. Two years that we did in the two years previous where they were helping us. I guess we'll call it. So I'm glad to say that research is doing well now but it's only because we have a few resources internally that we can use to spend on the stuff. I'd rather not end on a cynical no Opera offer positive [00:41:00] version this case so the positive version and I will create the big breakthrough starshot with this positive version of those of us working on The Advisory Board. Sometimes get some funding. From the the foundation to see what that will really pay for a service but with that money I can do lots of cool stuff. So I've been able to turn a few students to we're solving some problems of interest of breakthrough starshot it when we've got some great results. It doesn't actually take that much as long as we have the researchers have some freedom to pursue the work on our own terms. So if there's a lesson there it's something along the lines of you need a light touch. Normal gostin, the former CEO of Lockheed said the best way he's ever found to manage people this pick the right folks be clear about what you want and then get out of their way. Yeah, and that's that's lucky to that's not just some pie-in-the-sky academic like me saying that so there's something to this in the lesson learned again is to have a light touch   How do you change the 10 year goals 8 year political cycle mismatch?   Ben: excellent. And then  going back to [00:42:00] NASA briefly while I was working with you. I saw consistently that the executive branch would set tenure goals, but then. For political reasons those goals would change at most every eight years. And so you get this  progress towards this 10-year goals and then it would change. Do you see any way to change that sort of unfortunate situation? Mason: Well, there have been wasted proposed for example for NASA again since I know that example really well, it has been proposed even in this most recent Congress that NASA should be funded on a 10-year time frame and the idea would be that a a congress whatever the hundred and some odd Congress whatever it is would set the budget for NASA appropriate the funds and get out of the way. So the idea is that again once a decade, maybe you would check in and change the objectives. So this is I think most people recognize that the best way to run these long-term [00:43:00] projects. If you keep changing course every two to six or eight years, you just have chaos. This is one of the main reasons why things like the James Webb Space Telescope the International Space Station space shuttle, these all have given mass of the reputation of going over budget. But I have to defend NASA in this case because NASA really is able to defend itself on the spaces. It's not NASA. Okay, it's Congress if you have a project. That is complicated and takes a long time. There's a natural funding profile that goes with this. It's a little bit at first while you get your feet under you and then there's a big lump in the middle and that tails off toward the end. This is standard funding profile. But NASA's budget from Congress is flat. So you end up very inefficiently smearing this money across a very long time which makes things inefficient expensive things. Don't go. Well, you lose good people along the way and you end up spending more in the long. This story has been told over and over again and Congress. They're smart people. Well, actually you may not think so, but they are [00:44:00] in my experience. They know what they're doing and they know that they're going to trade off between the right answer and the politically expedient answer the politically expedient answer is as long as they can be seen to having their finger on the button for NASA there there there folks will vote for them. So you understand that's what motivates them. So I would say if there's a way to make this work. Well, it's something like. Come up with a way for they can where they can get credit for things are working. Well without necessarily having to change what's going on. Yeah, and I don't have an answer probably make that work if that were possible that makes a lot of sense.   What's the best way to make the world that has never been today?   Ben: So I realize we're coming up on time. One of the the last things I want to ask you about was that  some things that people might not have guessed about you is that you have a master's in English because. As your bio states that you thought that that was the way to make the world that has never been its by inspiring people with writing [00:45:00] and then you change track completely and well not completely but you figured out that engineering was sort of the best the best way to do that. Now, what what do you think? Do you still think that  what you think the best way to enable the world that has never been? In  today's here. And now Mason:  I like the way you're asking that question it recalls that quote from Theodore Von Karman, right distinction between science engineering scientists create the world's or huh, scientists discover the world that is Engineers create the world that never was it's not exactly a way of claiming that Engineers are better than scientist. Is that really what it's about is about distinguishing between these two impulses. We have discovering the unknown and creating. What doesn't exist in my opinion both contribute to improving our lot as humans, so there's a place for both in a reason to have both let's not confuse one with the other. I have always been about creating things. I [00:46:00] suppose I get this from my parents. My dad's a writer. My mom has created many things over the years. She was an artist. She has been a an actress and a brilliant Coco to restaurant. She's a very much a polymath when it comes to things of all. So I probably get this from them at some level but I've always taken not to be one of the the Essential Elements of what it is to be human is to create to lie. If your impact on the world in a positive way at least an impact at all and positive is my choice. Okay suppose people choose to do negative things. So what I'm saying is that that impulse is always been part of what matters to me. When I was a young naive person, I thought I could have that impact through English literature. I still interested in this I still interested in writing and reading and I respect people who can make a career out us for a thing, but it wasn't what I was good at. So instead I felt like aerospace engineering particularly offered me the opportunity to [00:47:00] solve problems that haven't been solved and to make an impact that I felt like making. So I guess over the years I've discovered there are definitely different ways of looking at the world one of the most the way that I look at it another one of the ways that people get the world is what's the safest way I can keep my job and not get fired. And those are very different impulses and and look I recognize that my perspective here maybe comes across as I don't know what to elitist or entitled or first world or something where I'm saying that it's great to have the freedom to create and make an impact on the world. I see I clearly tightly to that value. At the same time, I recognize that not everybody has that opportunity. Sometimes you just gotta make do you got to do what you can keep your family fed? Keep your shoes on your feet and you don't have the freedom the luxury of being able to do everything exactly the way you want it. So I recognize I'm very fortunate in my career my life. So I do not in any way put down people who haven't got the bandwidth simply to set assignments sided set aside time to create. [00:48:00] But that is what matters to me and I'm very fortunate that I have a job that allows me to do that. Yeah, well said.   Final Statements?   Ben: So I do realize we're over time this was  amazing by the way, so I just want to make sure that I there's any points that I didn't hit on absolutely want to give you a chance to talk about that. Mason: Well, I'm so glad that your interest in this question. How do we innovate? I will offer that when government works. Well, it enables people whatever works while it enables people to do their best in the service of our nation. Let's say when it doesn't work. Well it tries to prescribe to micro manage to get in the way so I am far from being an anti. It's very kind of person that I hope it doesn't come across. I think the right policies are essential. I mean policy you can look at is the software of our [00:49:00] lives here in an innovation when that software is written correctly the rules that we follow and we choose to follow they enable us to be successful when the software is not right everything falls apart. So, you know, I actually would not be averse to turning over some policy making the software Engineers because I think they have a sense of how to write good software and lawyers when they do their job. Well, you know that works out well too. Yeah, but unfortunately to be a software engineer and to affect society requires some additional kind of tranny. So if I want to close with a comment, it would be something along the lines of that. I don't see that much of a distinction in what people are capable of whether it's mathematics. Or history or philosophy or art or technology or science? These are all in my mind forms of the same thing. There are things of which we are all capable. I suppose there's some sabanci there who can do multi-digit multiplication in their heads, but I'm not interested in that because I have a computer. [00:50:00] So instead I take that multidisciplinary capability. We all have and my opinion were born with as a sign that. We shouldn't feel limited by what we think we're good at or not. And so those of you interested in creating an innovating don't feel that you are limited by what your label is if you're labeled as a software engineer, maybe policy is the right thing for you if your if your label Les a lawyer maybe you should think about going into space technology. I don't know. What I'm trying to say is that there's there's a lot of freedom that we all have for pursuing good ideas and we should take. Advantage of our rare position here at the beginning of the 21st century where we have these tools. We still have the resources. We wish to create we have this one chance. I think to make make our work right? Outro We got a lot out of this conversation. Here are some of my top takeaways. If you have an organization full of smart motivated people that doesn't produce great results. If all the incentives are set up to avoid [00:51:00] risk, there's been a shift in where different parts of the Innovation pipeline happen more is shifted to universities and startups away from larger companies and government but the systems of support having caught up to that change. Finally taking a portfolio approach to technology and Innovation is a powerful concept that we don't think about it enough. I hope you enjoyed that you'd like to reach out. You can find me on Twitter under app and Reinhart and I deeply appreciate any feedback you might have. Thank you.