Podcasts about ben you

In keeping with our recent level of relevance, we present to you a debrief we recorded about a month ago! We talk about The Dial of Destiny, Paul Ruebens' passing, and some other distractions! Note: Sorry this took so long to edit and release. I was dragging my feet and then I got Baldur's Gate 3 and it was all over. Which, by the way, is absolutely fantastic and I will be getting back to playing as soon as I am finished typing this. Additional Note: Apparently the initial upload failed and it took me 2 weeks to notice, uhg...      Fashionably late,              Ben   You can find more information about the show at GeeksplorationPodcast.com Contact us on social media: Facebook Geeksploration: The Podcast page/ Instagram @GeeksplorationPodcast / Twitter @GeeksplorePod Join us on our Discord!  Leave us a voice message at (916) ORC-TURD  Check out the cool swag at shop.GeeksplorationPodcast.com Theme song is "Celebration" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

"You will only ever do anything in your whole life, ever, if you want to do it." says Ben Easter.Ever been caught in the trap of feeling unmotivated, pushing through tasks with sheer willpower? Ben and Paige Easter understand the struggle. In this episode, they challenge some of our beliefs about motivation and the art of getting things done. They explore motivation that stems from our genuine desires and interests. They question the heavy "should", "have to", and "need to" phrasing that often burdens our tasks, nudging listeners toward a more genuine approach: focusing on what genuinely excites us.They encourage a routine self-check-in, emphasizing the need to prioritize well-being and align with our core desires. By doing so, they suggest, we can sculpt a life more attuned to our values, one that is inherently more fulfilling.Key Takeaways:Motivation is not something that can be forced or summoned through willpower. It is important to connect with our intrinsic motivations and desires.The language of "should, have to, need to" is not useful and often creates resistance. Instead, focus on what you want and connect with your desires.Prioritization is key when feeling overwhelmed with tasks. Identify your big rocks and align your actions with your values and goals.Check in with the four physicals: sleep, nutrition, movement, and energetic cycles. Taking care of your physical well-being is essential for motivation and productivity.Practice connecting your desires with your actions. Ask yourself if there are alternative ways to fulfill your desires that align better with your preferences and values.Quotes:"The thing that I hear so frequently is like having trouble finding motivation." (1:41 | Ben)"I think motivation is a myth because we're all motivated to do things intrinsically." (2:31 | Ben) "I think the error in thinking here is that it comes down to willpower…willpower is not as useful as people tend to think." (03:09 | Paige)"People think the solution to this is better time management…if only I could figure out how to pack more into the day." (05:27 | Ben)"You will only ever do anything in your whole life ever if you want to do it." (15:40 | Ben)"Quit pretending that there's something else other than what you want." (19:54 | Ben)"Connect with your desire…focus your energy on that and continue to connect with it." (22:56 | Ben)"Can I think of any other way that I can get that experience without doing this thing that I don't want to do?" (23:19 | Ben)"Check in with your motivation, your intrinsic motivation…think about what is driving you as a person." (28:12 | Ben)Connect with Ben and Paige:Website: https://lucidshiftcoaching.com/Lucid Shift Coaching IG: https://www.instagram.com/lucid_shift_coaching/The Mindset Gym: https://lucidshiftcoaching.com/the-mindset-gymProject Candlelight: https://airtable.com/shr5p0P2793RtRk2kPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Title: "The Haunting of Hollow Hill" INT. LIVING ROOM - NIGHT EMMA, a skeptical journalist, and BEN, an enthusiastic paranormal investigator, sit on a couch, surrounded by research materials and ghost-hunting equipment. EMMA So, you really believe this Hollow Hill is haunted? BEN Absolutely, Emma! The locals swear by it. They say on Halloween night, the spirits awaken. EMMA (smiling skeptically) And what makes you so sure? BEN (grinning) I've seen things, heard things. It's impossible to ignore the presence in that old mansion. EMMA (sighs) Fine, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But if we don't find anything tonight, you owe me dinner. BEN (laughs) Deal! INT. HOLLOW HILL MANSION - FOYER - NIGHT Emma and Ben enter the dimly lit foyer, their footsteps echoing through the empty halls. Creepy decor adorns the walls. EMMA (nervously) Okay, Ben, lead the way. I hope you're right about this. BEN (confidently) Trust me, Emma. We'll find some concrete evidence tonight. INT. HOLLOW HILL MANSION - LIBRARY - NIGHT Emma and Ben enter the library, filled with dusty shelves and cobwebs. They set up their equipment. EMMA (gazes around) This place gives me the chills. BEN (excitedly) That's what we're here for, Emma! Now, let's try an EVP session. INT. HOLLOW HILL MANSION - LIBRARY - LATER Emma holds a digital voice recorder while Ben asks questions into the silence. BEN (sincerely) Is anyone here with us? Can you give us a sign? Suddenly, a chilling gust of wind blows through the room, knocking over a chair. EMMA (startled) Did you see that? BEN (grinning) Told you, Emma! We're not alone. INT. HOLLOW HILL MANSION - ATTIC - NIGHT Emma and Ben climb up to the attic, their flashlights revealing old furniture covered in sheets. EMMA (whispering) I can't shake this feeling of being watched. BEN (whispering) Keep your eyes peeled, Emma. We might capture something incredible. INT. HOLLOW HILL MANSION - ATTIC - MOMENTS LATER A ghostly figure materializes, hovering near an old mirror. Emma and Ben gasp in awe. EMMA (whispering) Is that... a ghost? BEN (whispering) It certainly looks like one. They cautiously approach the apparition, their cameras capturing every moment. INT. HOLLOW HILL MANSION - LIVING ROOM - NIGHT Emma and Ben sit on the couch, reviewing their footage, excitement etched on their faces. EMMA (stunned) I can't believe it! We actually caught a ghost on camera! BEN (beaming) I told you, Emma. The spirits of Hollow Hill are very much real. EMMA (looking at Ben) You were right, Ben. I'm sorry for doubting you. BEN (smiling) No need to apologize. We made a great discovery together. They pack up their equipment, ready to share their findings with the world. FADE OUT. Note: This is a fictional script example based on the randomized story prompt provided. Feel free to modify and add more scenes/dialogue to suit your preferences. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/jamestownpodcasts/message

Finding your center is the key to #emotionalfreedom. The simple truth is that even though there is a common belief within our society that being self-centered is negative, that does not change the fact that you are the center of your reality. Radical self-center allows for true #freedom because it gives you permission to accept that you are the most important person in your reality and to live a life of #alignment with your #corevalues. Today, hosts Ben and Paige Easter talk about the concept of radical self-center and the value of #authenticity for achieving freedom.Martyrdom, or the idea that sacrificing yourself for others, is inherently good and is an incredibly pervasive concept going all the way back to the Bible. The fact is that this belief is beneficial to those in power because it can cause people to be more compliant. In truth, you are the judge of ‘good' or ‘bad' in your own reality, and it is perfectly okay if your versions of ‘good' or ‘bad' do not match with what you believe society would think. Being self-centered is not negative, regardless of what you may have been told. When you are living in alignment with your authentic self, you are more likely to find your tribe and contribute to the lives of others in ways that are unique to you. When you are always sacrificing your own needs and desires for what you think other people would want, you are doing yourself a disservice. This behavior keeps you from finding your freedom and living a life of authenticity. Give yourself permission to accept that you are the center of your reality and make choices from a place of alignment based entirely on your own core values, not those of others. Quotes“Radical self-centeredness is one of the key shifts to living a life of freedom and authenticity.” (2:27-2:32 | Ben)“What if you don't have to sacrifice your life for a greater good? What if you could just do things that were really wonderful and fulfilling for you, and then noticed the benefit that came to people around you when you were living a life of alignment?” (5:21-5:34 | Paige)“Radical self center is giving yourself permission to be the most important person in your reality, and to understand that you actually are, whether you like it or not, the most important person in your reality.” (8:18-8:28 | Ben)“What does freedom mean, if not authenticity, and really the ability to be yourself in any situation.” (10:35-10:42 | Ben)“You are the arbiter of what is good or bad in your reality.” (14:29-14:32 | Ben)“When people are talking about society and what society says, it's almost always something that is keeping that person from having or doing something.” (17:11-17:21 | Paige)“There are great and tremendous opportunities for us when we are being ourselves.” (33:08-33:13 | Paige) “Commit to you being inherently valuable.” (34:13-34:16 | Paige)LinksConnect with Ben and Paige Easter:Website: https://lucidshiftcoaching.com/LWebsite: https://lucidshiftcoaching.com/Lucid Shift Coaching IG: https://www.instagram.com/lucid_shift_coaching/Project Candlelight: https://airtable.com/shr5p0P2793RtRk2kPodcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Jason talks to Professor Ben Charoenwong, an Assistant Professor in Finance at the National University of Singapore. Today Ben is going to talk about some research he has done specifically in the RegTech field. Ben explains how dealer broker firms would not have wanted to invest in all these technologies on their own, it's the fact that there are some regulations that kind of forced them to get software.Episode Highlights1.40: RegTech is short for regulatory technology or software that is designed specifically for the purpose of improving or assisting with compliance with rules and regulations. 6.09: At the end of the day, everything is all about liability and the only way to make companies accountable is to make them liable, says Jason. 9.00: When you look down the list of like the top 20 broker dealers, it's a mix of whether they are caring or not a lot of this business line of having custody.11.04: There are many proprietary software solutions for document handling and storage that jumped about 30% when this rule was signed and started to be implemented and there is just a dramatic jump in the firms adopting the software solutions.12.44: Ben saw an almost exact equivalent jump on the hardware side. The estimated IT budget for each company increased by about 30 to 40% and consequently the profitability of these firms increased by about five percentage points.19.14: The most profitable per dollar of revenue firms that exist at this point are typically sole practitioners running at a high level of automation and it's interesting.24.04: Ben talked about his research, and did he complete any form of causation like was it the elimination of bad actors or we could just attribute this to a Hawthorne effect?27.35: If you think about this SEC 175-A rule it is very basic and just says, all these other financial regulations, just can you comply with them always.3 Key PointsThe main thing about customer asset segregation is that the brokers that were not carrying or using other brokers as custodians, that was fine because that's a third party and it's very hard to steal customer assets when it's sitting with someone else, says Ben. Realistically companies looked at SEC rule that basically talks about banking versus investing and they must have thought immediately like we need a software solution. James explains what he saw in terms of the implementation and its efficacy of it.The technology component seems to have the operational effect that's almost equivalent to like having the FBI come check the firm, says Ben.Tweetable Quotes"In the face of increasing regulations in the financial services sector, it's become fairly difficult for humans to actually make sure they are in compliance." – Ben"You always have all the independent parties who are making decisions as to how things are to work." - Jason"It's a known phenomenon that computers tend to not get scrapped, they trickle down for a long period of time until they're useless." – Jason"I don't think regulation is going anyway anytime soon. It's going to increase even more."- BenResources MentionedFacebook – Jason Pereira's FacebookLinkedIn – Jason Pereira's LinkedInWoodgate.com – Sponsorhttps://www.bencharoenwong.info/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Leasing is one of the hardest aspects of property management. What if you had a way to offload some or all of your tasks related to leasing? Today, property management growth expert Jason Hull chats with Ben from Sunroom. This service allows property managers to offload leasing to leasing professionals who care about property managers, owners, and tenants. You'll Learn… [01:26] Offloading Leasing: What is Sunroom? [09:01] ShowMojo, Tenant Turner, vs. Sunroom, oh my! [016:35] Better ways to do Property Showings [020:23] How Sunroom Vets Tenants Better [24:21] Integrating with Other PM Software  [31:30] Net Promoter Scores for Property Management and Leasing [37:12] Learning to LET GO as a PM Entrepreneur Tweetables “Some of y'all entrepreneurs are control freaks. Let's be real, and you need to let go of some of this stuff and let somebody else do it a little bit better.” “We have a lot of egos as entrepreneurs. We think our way is the best way all the time, and we need to see that maybe somebody else could do this better.” “Property managers tend to do best if they just convince owners to do pets. You're going to get more tenants, you're going to get more money.” “One of the biggest time sucks for a property management company is dealing with prospective tenants.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Ben: So what we do is we partner with property management companies and become their leasing arm. So if you're a newer property management company, you're focused on growing doors and you just mainly want to focus on that, right? One of the most important things is you got to get leasing. If you don't get leasing, you're not going to lease the doors quickly, which then your owner investors are not going to be happy about that.   [00:00:22] Jason Hull: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the # DoorGrowShow. So if you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not bebecause you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.    [00:01:19] Jason Hull: All right. Ben, welcome to the #DoorGrowShow.    [00:01:24] Ben: Thanks for having me, Jason.    [00:01:26] Jason Hull: Good to have you. So Ben, why don't we start by you giving us a little bit of your background, qualify yourself. You've done some cool stuff and I'm in the market where you did some of this cool stuff. We just realized in the green room that we're practically neighbors in Austin, market downtown, and I'm up in Round Rock. Ben, tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into the, I guess technology space.   [00:01:49] Ben: Yeah, sure. Yeah, definitely. First of all, I mean we-- me and my co-founder Zach, we started working on Sunroom in right around 2017. And, the way that we had originally had the idea was, just being a renter for a decade and having a lot of interesting experiences trying to look for a place to lease. But prior to starting Sunroom, Zach and I had started a company called Favor Delivery, which is a small little delivery company here in Texas that grew to become the market leader in delivery. And we sold to H-E-B in early 2018.    [00:02:27] Jason Hull: And for people that aren't familiar with H-E-B, because I moved from California just before the pandemic because I wanted to get away from California and the taxes and it's poor political culture. But anyway, so I moved here, Austin and H-E-B was all over the place. I'm like, what a weird name. What is this place? But it's one of the, like America's top grocery chains. It's consistently rated as like one of the biggest and the best. So for those that are not in Texas, they are probably not familiar with H-E-B, but H-E-B is the, like one of the leading grocery stores, and it dominates everything.    [00:03:05] Jason Hull: Yeah.   [00:03:06] Jason Hull: I'm sure in grocery sales, it beats out Walmart, like it beats out any of the stuff that I'd heard about before and I'd never heard of H-E-B. And they offer delivery service.    [00:03:15] Ben: Yeah. H-E-B is an impressive company. And the crazy thing is they've been around for 115 years.   [00:03:21] Ben: Wow.    [00:03:21] Ben: They are the top employer in Texas. And when they acquired us, it was the only acquisition they've ever had in their history as a company. And even crazier than that, when we combined workforces at the time, we had the largest workforce of independent contractors. We grew to, now they're at a hundred thousand delivery drivers in Texas.    [00:03:44] Ben: Oh, wow.    [00:03:44] Ben: And H-E-B had a similar amount of employees. So when we combined workforces, it just became this really massive workforce supporting grocery and delivery of all foods. So yeah, it was a cool marriage that we had there.   [00:04:00] Jason Hull: Very cool. Yeah. Very cool. That's interesting history. So I've seen the Favor name when I'm doing delivery from H-E-B, so I was like what's this relationship?    [00:04:11] Ben: Yeah. So I can elaborate a little bit more too about, how we picked Sunroom. We had, like I said, I mean my co-founder Zach and I, we're actually best friends from high school and so we go way back. I think what you were saying about you wanting to support property manager entrepreneurs, I think that's a good mission because I just tip my hat off to any entrepreneurs who get any businesses working because we definitely know how hard that is. But anyways, our journey towards Sunroom was just having a lot of, I would call interesting experiences as a renter. And then we started calling-- once we were interested in the rental space-- we started making a lot of phone calls to, different rental listings. And we started asking the agents and property managers, "Hey, why are you doing this?" "why are you doing these leases?" And, we kept hearing the same thing, which was like, "oh, we don't-- I don't really want to be doing this lease. I'm just doing this lease. I'm helping this investor client buy more homes and so now I'm looped into to renting this place." And every once in a while you'd come across a property manager who really loved leasing, but a lot of the property managers we talked to too would be like, "yeah, I'm really focused on growing my door count. And these things are just something we have to do to get more properties in the door." And Zach and I saw that as an opportunity of: wow. No wonder why the experience is not that great for renters. A lot of the folks who are doing these leasing are not that excited about doing it. And so then that's how we started working on Sunroom.    [00:05:29] Jason Hull: Cool. So let's talk about then what-- you talked about the problem that you saw in the marketplace and experience wasn't super good, but a lot of owners and maybe even property managers aren't even super excited about taking care of the tenant experience. So it's not like their highest priority. Like, "I want to get more doors, I want to have more properties managed," so they're like, "what's my competitive advantage?" So when they're picking tools and software, they're usually-- they're trying to figure out: "how do I get some sort of leg up on the competition," so to speak, or "how can this lower my operational cost?" and these kind of things. One of the biggest time sucks for a property management company is dealing with prospective tenants.    [00:06:13] Jason Hull: Yeah.    [00:06:14] Jason Hull: These are not people that are paying them and they call them the most, and--   [00:06:17] Jason Hull: yeah.   [00:06:18] Jason Hull: --This is like the "garbage of phone calls," I've heard one of my guests call it.   [00:06:21] Jason Hull: Yeah.    [00:06:22] Jason Hull: So tell me about what does Sunroom do and how does it do it, and what's the benefit.    [00:06:27] Ben: Yeah, sure. So what we do is we partner with property management companies and become their leasing arm. So if you're a newer property management company, you're focused on growing doors and you just mainly want to focus on that, right? One of the most important things is you got to get leasing. If you don't get leasing, you're not going to lease the doors quickly, which then your owner investors are not going to be happy about that. And also I would argue equally as important is that renter does have a great experience because, that is really the beginning of your relationship with them, and what we've noticed of working with a lot of different property managers is that, when the renter goes into the home and they're really happy with their experience that led up to that point, they're a lot more-- how do I put this? They're a lot more quiet when they get into the home, right? They're just happy overall, which is going to reduce your maintenance requests and honestly going to make it more likely that they renew the next year, right? because that is just really first, and I would just say first impressions are, everything in life a lot of times.    [00:07:27] Ben: And so I think, leasing really is that first impression for that property manager. To come back around to what we do, yeah, we partner with the property management companies and make it so that they don't even need to have any leasing agents on staff. And we can really do the entire process of getting the home leased. But at the same time, we give the property manager the power over key decisions, right? Things like actually approving the applications, that's still going to be up to the property manager to make sure they choose the right applicant. And obviously if they want to use their lease that they prefer, there's all different ways that we allow them to customize what they want their leasing experience to be like. But at the end of the day, we're really doing the legwork for them and we have a combination of people and tech to do that.    [00:08:12] Ben: Got it. So    [00:08:14] Jason Hull: this combination of people and tech... are you able to do this in every market or is this like a local thing that needs to be done    [00:08:21] Ben: locally?    [00:08:23] Ben: Yeah, great question.   [00:08:24] Ben: So we started out just doing this in Austin and have partnered with several different property managers here. In town. But now we're expanding across the us. And I believe we're up to seven different markets at the moment. But pretty rapidly expanding to cover more markets.   [00:08:41] Ben: Got it. What's    [00:08:42] Jason Hull: the biggest limitation in expansion for those that you don't cover yet?    [00:08:46] Ben: We call ourselves a leasing only brokerage, so we're actually-- we're a real estate brokerage in each of these states. And so that's a blocker to getting set up in a lot of these places is actually establishing our brokerage in each one of these states.   [00:08:59] Ben: Got it.    [00:09:00] Jason Hull: Okay. Cool. I think a lot of property managers, they're aware of certain pools like ShowMojo and Tenant Turner and Rently and Knock Rentals and Turbo Tenant, so how does Sunroom differentiate from all these tools and these systems are already out there?   [00:09:20] Ben: Yeah, so some of those systems and tools you mentioned, I do think those-- they do improve the renter experience and at the same time. They do make it so that it's a little less work for the property manager to lease those properties. But at the end of the day, if you're a property management owner you're still going to need a leasing agent on your team. Or you're going to have to overextend the property manager that you have in order to use those, utilize those tools. Sunroom just takes it the next step where we have similar tools and systems. Obviously I'm biased, but I would argue they're better than those, but--   [00:09:55] Ben: You should argue that.    [00:09:57] Ben: We take it a step further. You don't even really need to have a leasing agent on staff in order to really execute everything you need to do for leasing. Whereas all these other tools or systems they're definitely completely reliant on still having somebody there behind the scenes catching the errors or all all the holes in those systems. And, if anybody has tried to. Integrate those different systems and tools, what they'll find is that they were built in a way that they had a focused goal. And there's a lot of different holes in that system. And I'm sure as operators see that, I think that's a big difference with what we're building, is that what we build, we actually use to operate. And so we're able to see all the different gaps and holes that those systems leave. And really between our systems and our team, we're able to fill in the gaps that those systems leave out.   [00:10:46] Jason Hull: All right. So I think people listening by now are like, "the wheels are turning a little bit," and they're like, "okay, how's this actually play out?" So could you walk us through step by step what-- how this process works with the property manager and the tenant from beginning to    [00:11:01] Ben: finish? Yeah, sure. So it usually starts within one of the property managers, property management softwares, right?   [00:11:09] Ben: We see commonly property managers are using App Folio or Buildium, so let's use App Folio for example. You have a property manager on your team that you have a home where the renter didn't renew. And it's a property that you're going to need to get leased. At that moment, if you were partnered with us, you would open up the Sunroom portal. We would already essentially have that home synced within our system. Because we're able to really pull data from App Folio and the Buildiums of the world. From there, they just really submit the property to us and say, "Hey, this home's coming up for lease." we would normally already have all of their settings. As a part of our onboarding, we're going to get them all set up in our system. So things like knowing what their tenant criteria is. Things like knowing when is this home actually available? When would you like us to touch the property? And then as soon as they submit the property to us, we actually will go out and touch the property. So we have boots on the ground. Those boots on the ground are going to get professional photography. They're going to set up a self showing lock system if that's what the property manager would like to. And then we're going to actually install a yard sign as well. And, we take pictures to really document everything that we do there. And then, we'll take it a step further, we'll get the marketing description written and then we'll get it listed online, and we do that entire process in an average about 48 hours.    [00:12:28] Ben: Nice.    [00:12:29] Jason Hull: Awesome. Yeah, that's very cool. So you actually have people come out-- swarm of people, and they get all this stuff done, right? In the description, getting it listed, doing all this stuff. Okay.    [00:12:39] Jason Hull: Yeah,    [00:12:40] Ben: and that's where our background in Favor obviously comes into play is that, I think if you think about Favor, there's a great consumer experience where the customer can order food, but then there's all these boots on the ground that actually go get the food and make sure that all happens in a timely manner. Leasing is similar in the sense that you need to have a great consumer experience for the renter to be able to see what they're shopping for and do the things they they need to do to see if they want to, lease that property. But then you're going to need boots on the ground to actually, handle the listing side of things.   [00:13:09] Ben: Very cool.    [00:13:10] Jason Hull: So is this totally Uber-like in that you're just pulling anybody in, or I'm sure you have criteria for the photographers and for all these different people that you're bringing in to do these    [00:13:22] Ben: little pieces.    [00:13:23] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. We don't just hire any random person. I'd say it's definitely not Uber-like in that I think, we use-- it's technology enabled so that we can do those things quickly and can measure how fast we do them, right? I think just the fact that we know we get those properties set up in an average of 48 hours, I think is...    [00:13:42] Ben: Yeah.   [00:13:42] Ben: ...more than your average property manager would know, but we know that the tasks we're doing are tech enabled, but no we care a lot about those people that we choose and we try to find folks that have a lot of experience with real estate photography and then we teach them the other aspects of what we're trying to get done at that property.   [00:14:00] Jason Hull: Awesome. Yeah. Very cool. When a property is going to become vacant, are they able to leverage a system or does it have to be totally empty and rent ready and everything    [00:14:11] Ben: else?    [00:14:12] Ben: No. So yeah, no, they're able to use the system. It sounds like you're asking about pre-leasing.    [00:14:19] Ben: Yeah.   [00:14:20] Ben: Okay. Yes, pre-leasing can be really important I think in some markets. Yeah, that's definitely something we support. And let's say it's tenant occupied and we need to act and do an escorted showing, we have different agents on the ground that we partner with that are some of the most active in the area touring homes and renters. And so we'll tap into that network to do some.   [00:14:40] Jason Hull: Got it. Okay. Now what if they want get the property listed, they want to get photos, but there's a bunch of ugly furniture in there and ugly stuff. Do you guys let maybe-- BoxBrownie I've had on the show before-- digital editors and they're like, removing all this    [00:14:55] Ben: stuff?   [00:14:55] Ben: Yeah.    [00:14:56] Ben: Take the photos.   [00:14:56] Ben: Yeah, we do have digital editing in that regard, but depending on the degree of how much that home is messed up. That's also something that we do is that if we go out to a home and we think it's not show ready we'll document that and share it back with the property manager. And I think we've seen property managers really love that aspect of what we do because oftentimes they have a tough time holding the make ready folks accountable or let's say they're doing a renovation on the property. In particular, I can't tell you how many times that a property manager said, "Oh yeah, this was supposed to be done. And then when we went out there we were able to collect evidence that it wasn't right. That's also part of our system is that if the home is not actually ready to be marketed, and then, we're going to gather that information, share it back with the property manager, and then essentially remind them until that's resolved and as soon as it's resolved, then we can make the listing active. But it's a pretty valuable system and checks and balances that we have in place there.    [00:15:55] Jason Hull: Got it. So you'll communicate with them. Then the property manager can send out maintenance, get things taken care of, dealt with, and then report back to you and you're checking in with them, "Hey, is this ready yet? Is this ready yet?" And then they're like, "we got it ready." And then...    [00:16:08] Jason Hull: exactly.    [00:16:08] Jason Hull: Proceed.    [00:16:10] Jason Hull: Exactly.    [00:16:10] Jason Hull: So you've sent up the people, you've got the photos, you got like maybe a lockbox on, you got the yard sign, you've got the description. It's posted online. It's probably pushed out to multiple channels.   [00:16:19] Jason Hull: That's right.    [00:16:20] Jason Hull: Then next come the showings, right? And scheduling and all this. So how does that work and are you doing one-off showings? Are you doing open house model? What would it be found to be the most efficient? What comes next?    [00:16:35] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. So what we do is we usually set these properties up with a self showing system, and then renters are able to go tour the properties seven days a week from 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM and, we also have, a support team available those same hours, so 84 hours, we're ready to quickly text back any renters or answer any phone calls if, folks are having a tough time actually, accessing the home for any particular reason. Our system is really good. I'd say renters have a really good experience touring homes. Like any system, we're dealing with real world stuff. Sometimes maybe it could be a really humid day and maybe the maybe the door frame swells a bit or something, right? So maybe the door gets a little stuck. So the renter needs a little help to understand how to get in. Those are all things that I think us, having support team there available to talk to them and actually pick up the phone. I think is a really important thing. So that's just one of the many ways that we support tours. But I'd say one of the most important pieces of tours is actually collecting that tour feedback and sharing it with the owner after the fact. And so we have a really great system in place for that as well where a lot of renters will leave feedback just right within the place that they tour. And then we're actually able to take that feedback and then give it to display it on a webpage where then the property manager is able to share that webpage directly with their owner so they can actually watch the tours that are coming in and the tour feedback in real time. And we white label that for them. So you can imagine as a property manager, you just share this white label page with your logo and the owner's able to get a bird's eye view of how their home is performing on the market.    [00:18:21] Ben: Got it.    [00:18:22] Jason Hull: So could this be a scenario that the owner says, "I don't need to do this," and like the property manager says, "you need to do this. Like it'll get you more rent. People will have an issue with this place if you don't fix this or change this," and the owner's like, "no." And then they say, "look at the page, here's the white label page. It's got our brand, our logo, XYZ property management, and it says like, consistently feedback. Like the floor is too gross, or whatever."   [00:18:47] Ben: Yeah, "I would rent this home, but does it come with a fridge?" Just one way I've seen owners trying to cut some costs is like not putting refrigerators in the home. And then they see, three out of the five renters that tour the home mentioned "Hey, there's no fridge."    [00:19:00] Ben: "have to buy a fridge and I'll go somewhere else."   [00:19:03] Ben: Yeah, exactly. And that page really helps the property manager make their case to the owner and also show to them like, "Hey, we really are showing this property and this really is what the renters are saying.   [00:19:14] Ben: Cool.    [00:19:15] Jason Hull: Yeah, that's really cool. I like the feedback loops. So then, what's the next steps? You're doing showings, you're doing tours. Then I guess people are being pushed to apply when they're doing these tours by the system?    [00:19:27] Ben: Yeah, so we have a system, both to pre-qualify renters and to actually have them apply. As soon as they apply we're able to display those applications to the property manager. And we use the same page that we use to display tour feedback and also tracking the tours and the leads and everything. We use that same page then to actually show the applications to the property managers and to their owners. Because I know every property manager seems to have a different deal with each owner, right? Some of 'em, they want to run the application past their owner beforehand, or sometimes they're just the ones reviewing it. But either way, we display that information there so that both the property manager and the owner, are able to review the application before they decide to approve or not.   [00:20:14] Ben: Got it. So    [00:20:14] Jason Hull: they can either show this white label page that has the list of all the applicants or could they just say, "here's the one we recommend," and show that person's information?   [00:20:22] Jason Hull: Yeah.    [00:20:23] Ben: Yeah. It's usually the latter. Because it's trying to make it simpler. Yeah. It's usually just showing the one that they recommend. And at that point, we would've already done all of the vetting for that application. Even the manual steps of doing a verification of rental history, for example or a verification of employment. And we've actually seen just our application processing service. We've seen that to be so popular that we actually broke that out as something that a property manager could partner with us just on application processing, and that's also cool because we have a lot of tech to catch fraudulent renters. I'm sure you've probably heard about how fraud is on the rise especially with us entering recession. And I think it's just more likely that renters are going to try to fake pay stubs. Even some go as far as trying to fake their identity in different ways to try to get approved for a home that really are beyond their means. And so we've really, we've invested a lot into our application processing system. Doing things like being able to get their pay stubs directly from their payroll provider instead of having a way for them to upload their pay stubs, which could be photoshopped or something like that.    [00:21:35] Ben: Yeah.    [00:21:35] Ben: And then let's say a renter doesn't even have a job, or let's say a renter's, a self-employed or something, we have a way of actually pulling bank statements directly from their bank, instead of just receiving those bank statements and getting it uploaded. All that tech helps to really reduce the amount of fraud. And as for property managers as well, it's less work to actually investigate all those documents.   [00:21:59] Jason Hull: That's just technology and stuff a property manager can't do directly. They don't have the ability to pull directly from the bank their pay stubs, and it's not going to say, "here, let me give you my login to my bank account," and to pull directly from the employer. They don't usually have that ability really effectively either. There needs to be technology involved.   [00:22:18] Ben: Yeah.    [00:22:19] Ben: So we--   [00:22:20] Ben: --so what    [00:22:20] Jason Hull: about--    [00:22:20] Ben: oh, go ahead.    [00:22:20] Ben: I was just going to say, yeah, we recognize that you know most of what we've been talking about here is called our full service leasing, right? Where we actually become the leasing arm. But let's say, you've got leasing agents on your team and you think they're rock stars. You're happy with what's going on with your leasing. We could plug in and just do the application processing. We call that service, we call that Sunscreen, is what we call it. The idea is the quirky tagline that I came up with is, "Don't get burned by bad renters."   [00:22:47] Jason Hull: I like it. Little bit of sunscreen.    [00:22:51] Ben: Yeah, exactly.   [00:22:52] Ben: Okay.    [00:22:53] Jason Hull: So one of the questions I think some people will be asking is, what about pets? It's like a whole nother beast. Outside, inside pets and running pets and having pets, all this kind of stuff. Property managers tend to do best if they just convince owners to do pets. You're going to get more tenants, you're going to get more money. How do you deal with the pet side of    [00:23:11] Ben: things?    [00:23:12] Ben: Yeah, so at this point I'm sure most property managers have heard of pet screening.com. I think they're a great company. And so we actually integrate their data into our system. So if you're already signed up for pet screening.com. You can provide the pet screening.com login, and then we're able to pull that information into the application packet. So it's something that the owner and the property manager can consider as a part of the overall application. And, obviously pet screening.com does a really good job verifying things like our emotional support animal documentation. Is that legit? There's fraud around ESA documents. And that's just one of the pieces that they do. But yeah, that's something that we recommend whenever anyone is accepting pets.   [00:23:57] Ben: Very    [00:23:58] Jason Hull: cool. I like pet screening.com that I've had them on the show. I had another company that may be interesting to integrate with too on the show called our pet policy.com and they take things a step further on the protection side of things after the screening. So they go step beyond. So that might be interesting for you to take a look at integrating with as well.    [00:24:20] Jason Hull: Yeah.   [00:24:20] Jason Hull: Ourpetpolicy.com, they seem like a good group of people over there as well. So real quick, going back, you had mentioned AppFolio, Buildium, do you integrate with Rent Manager? Do you integrate with I don't know, there's some other things and some of these tools    [00:24:35] that    [00:24:35] Ben: people are using?   [00:24:37] Ben: Yeah. Great question. So it's pretty easy for us to get key information plugged into these softwares. And the reason is when someone partners with us, if you think about it, we really need to touch that property management software right when the home is when the home's coming up for lease, right? It needs to be listed. And then once the home gets leased, that's when that information needs to get back in the property management software again. So usually the way that our structure is, it doesn't really matter too much, which property management software you're. The system would be the same, where you would essentially create a user for us.   [00:25:15] Ben: So then once the home is getting leased, we know who's signing the lease. We're going to get their information set up within whatever property management software you use and make sure that it's set up for ongoing rent payments and things like that. It essentially, if you're using a property management software, but then you're going to use someone for leasing. But then once the home gets leased, it's going to be as if you had leased it through those other systems. And it's seamless in that way.    [00:25:39] Ben: Yeah. Very cool. So    [00:25:40] Jason Hull: you're PM    [00:25:41] Ben: software agnostic.    [00:25:42] Ben: Exactly. Yes. That's a much more succinct way of saying it. Thanks.   [00:25:47] Jason Hull: So that just means I've been doing this probably a long time. All right. So you've, you mentioned your solution. You've got the sunscreen that can be, pulled out just separately or if they're using the full leasing service. You've done the pre-qualification, you've got the applicant they can send over the white label thing to the owner. If the owner's like, "I really need to see what info you got." And you've tested out their pay stubs and their bank--   [00:26:11] Jason Hull: right    [00:26:12] Jason Hull: --stuff, and you've maybe connected the pet screening.com. What happens next? You've got    [00:26:17] Ben: a good applic--    [00:26:18] Ben: Yes. Yeah, so the property manager, the owner accepts the application. And at that point, we're going to reach out to the renter, say, "congrats, you've been accepted. Please now pay the security deposit." And as soon as they pay security deposit, then the owner or the property manager is able to connect their bank account, and that money will just automatically get deposited in whatever account that you specify. And then from a lease perspective, from really from the beginning of the process, we would've asked that you provide the preferred lease that you would like for us to use. We're going to get that lease drafted up and we're going to send it over to both the renter and the property manager. For some property managers, they like to review one last time before it gets sent to the renter. So we can fulfill that ask. And then the lease is going to get signed. And as soon as the lease gets signed, we will then dispatch our people back out to the property, do one final walkthrough, and also remove our yard sign and remove any other things that we had, any lock boxes or things like that we got setup. But we do one thing where we will leave a combo lockbox out at the property so that we can facilitate the renter actually moving in. So that's really the final and last step for our system, is facilitating to the renter actually getting the keys so that they have a smooth move in. And then the last step after all of that is we're going to survey the renter and make sure they had a great experience through the whole the whole leasing process.   [00:27:51] Jason Hull: And what's-- before we move on, because I'm curious like what difference you're noticing with these surveys, but let's say they don't accept somebody. What's the process? What happens to the rejects, so to speak? The tenants that didn't pass because a lot of times they're following up and bugging the property manager, "Hey, did you accept me? What's going on?" This sort of thing. What do you do?    [00:28:11] Ben: Yeah. So first of all, we shield the property manager from having to deal with all of that stuff. And I think for the position we're in, I think the natural thing is I think we would do what any other good property manager would do. We'd see if there's any other listings within that property manager that the renter would qualify for. First and foremost, we're going to recommend that of " There are these other listings for the same property manager" or, " do you like that?" And if the renter is not interested in any of those homes, then I think we would look broader to other listings that that are amongst our partners and say, "Hey, renter, maybe it would be better if you lease this property."   [00:28:48] Jason Hull: Yeah. That helps get the other properties filled. That's great.    [00:28:53] Ben: Yeah.    [00:28:53] Ben: Okay.    [00:28:53] Ben: And the renter's really happy too, because they don't have to pay an application fee again, so they're able to reuse their application.    [00:29:00] Jason Hull: Nice. Now what if you have two property managers in the same market and you get an applicant for one, are they completely segregated from being able to apply it to the other, or if they're in the Sunroom system,    [00:29:13] Ben: they can...   [00:29:14] Ben: Great question. Yeah. So we don't want to restrict where renters can apply, right? because that just doesn't make sense. But we have come across the scenario, it's been rare where renters have applied to multiple properties. And so what's really cool about our system is that we have a little disclaimer for the property manager where they can see, "hey, this renter's actually applied for multiple properties," and that way it's clear to them of " Hey, look, this renter is serious about your property, they are, they're hedging their bets," which, that's a common scenario especially in a hot market is if property managers are collecting multiple applicants on a single property, you can bet that the renters-- they know that. And so they're also applying to multiple properties. So I think we do our best to try to mitigate those scenarios. And I think one of the best ways to mitigate those scenarios is really just processing applications quickly and then, and working to get the renter and answer quickly around if they're accepted or denied. And, in most cases, I think renters are willing to tell you which one's their first choice. And so if you're able to process the application really quickly and drive it to decision, it doesn't happen too often where the owner comes back and wants to accept the renter and they've already decided to go somewhere else. It does occasionally, we try to mitigate that.    [00:30:28] Ben: Got it.    [00:30:28] Jason Hull: Okay, cool. So going back to the other path, I'm actually drawing this all out. I've got like a flow    [00:30:34] Ben: chart going on here.    [00:30:36] Ben: Sounds good. Keep    [00:30:37] Jason Hull: track.    [00:30:38] Jason Hull: So you surveyed the renter at the end, like you've got somebody in the property.    [00:30:43] Jason Hull: Yeah.   [00:30:43] Jason Hull: They've got a lockbox there. I think that's very cool. They can just go and "Can I move in on this day?" "Yep, here's the lockbox. You've got a code or however it works." And they can go get in.    [00:30:52] Jason Hull: Yeah.   [00:30:52] Jason Hull: And you don't have to show up. They can be there with their new U-Haul when they need to be there. That's super annoying, I think for property managers sometimes. And then afterwards you survey the renter. So I'm curious about the results of this. What's been the shift that people have noticed in the experience? This is why you started this in the beginning. You weren't having a great experience. Some people probably were like, "Drive to our office and you might get a key." Some people are like, "we can meet you maybe this day." It was like a mess. So what sort of feedback are you seeing on these surveys and what sort of shift are property management companies that are working with you noticing with your process versus trying to do this on their    [00:31:30] Ben: own?   [00:31:30] Ben: Yeah, great question. We collect what I would I consider a very important metric and I'm curious if it's come up before in this podcast. It's something called a net promoter score. Yeah. Have you discussed that before? I'm happy to--   [00:31:44] Ben: we    [00:31:44] Jason Hull: haven't really focused on that. But yeah, I think a lot of people are familiar. So net promoter score is when it says "on a scale of maybe zero to 10 or one to 10, how likely are you to recommend this company?" So a lot of people see this, the quick survey on software, different things like this.    [00:32:00] Ben: Yeah, that's right. And so when the net promoter score rank actually comes out, the scale is actually a minus a hundred to a plus 100. You could Google about how that works, but you're right. As a renter, what we would be asking them is, "how likely are you to recommend leasing a property to a friend through Sunroom or through x property management company?" And what we found is we just have a really good net promoter score. So if you could google this around, but the average net promoter score amongst property managers is a seven. And that's not on the zero to 10 scale. That's on the minus a hundred to the plus 100 scale, and. For the renters who lease a property through us, we have a 52 net promoter score.    [00:32:42] Ben: Nice.    [00:32:43] Ben: Yeah. So it's like what I said at the very beginning these renters are just a lot happier when they get in the home. For the property managers, they're seeing less really noisy renters when they first move in. I think that's a common thing that property managers are used to is that when a renter first moves in, that can be when they're talking the most or they're the noisiest. And so I think just anecdotally, property managers have said that, "Hey, these renters are just happier. They're just not causing as much commotion when they first move. And some of that has to do with our process too, right? Allowing renters to even self tour homes, it's a no pressure thing where they're able to really understand what they're buying before they move in. So I believe that helps as well.    [00:33:24] Jason Hull: This is the nerd in me coming out. So there's this really book called _Innovating Analytics_. And they put out this idea, basically the idea of the next generation of net promoter. They have used a lot of data to showcase and it's a little dry, but there's a lot of data to showcase the fundamental flaws of net promoter score, which is, has advantages over doing nothing, right? But then they talk about a new sort of score, which is the word of mouth index. And so we've incorporated that a bit into our business. It basically asks a second question, "how likely are you to discourage others from utilizing that?" Because what they found, just because somebody is not a true promoter, as they categorize them on the high end, like they choose like maybe a seven, eight, or nine or something, does not mean they're actually going to go hurt your business. And so a lot of big companies, they found were spending a lot of money to try and mitigate the people and pay attention to people and help the people they thought were detractors or people that would hurt their business when most of them really wouldn't. Just because it was a two or a three. They found that does not necessarily mean they're actually going to go actively try and destroy your business or hurt you. They just aren't going to tell people about it, because some people just don't want to talk about other businesses. Right? . So then asking a secondary question, how likely are you to tell others not to use this business or whatever. Then it gives you the true people to focus on mitigating or solving challenges for. Really interesting idea, but then they talk about the challenge of mainlining, where if they answer one question one way, first question, they'll answer it the same way, but it's backwards. Because they're just in the mode of answering questions like a zombie and they'll do it the wrong way or read it the wrong way. We've even seen this, so you have to put some questions in between and so it just complicates. But it's a really interesting book. You and I can geek out sometime and show you how I built this out so that it would work effectively, but it helps us identify which people are actually detractors that we need to take care of and focus on, and which people, they never rate anything positively and they're just, but they're quiet, which is fine.    [00:35:25] Jason Hull: Oh that's    [00:35:25] Ben: fascinating. I'll have to check that out.   [00:35:28] Jason Hull: I know, it's pretty nerdy. So_ Innovating Analytics_ is by Larry Freed F R E E D which is an interesting book. Cool. We've asked a lot of questions. You've explained the process. I think we've covered how it works unless we missed anything. But what else do people, property managers coming to you, what other concerns or things could we address here on the podcast before we wrap that they might have? Or what are the big FAQ questions that they ask before they're willing to explore giving up the leasing arm their business?    [00:36:00] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of the questions just evolve around how they can still control the process. And so we've invested an incredible amount into giving them those controls, right? Like I think the key is, the way we look at it is look like we're going to be the best at doing this leasing legwork. It's all we do. And we've built technology to really hold ourselves accountable to really high standards. But at the end of the day, like we still want you to have control over who's the right tenant for this property? Or, "how would you like the that application process to go?" For example. And I think we've worked hard to streamline the areas and that, we just realized, hey, this is the best way to do this. But also we recognize that hey, these property managers, they have pride to process for a reason, right, for their particular market that might be the right thing to do. And so we've invested a lot in creating different settings and things like that, that can make it so that they get to use it the way they would like.    [00:37:03] Ben: Cool. So it's    [00:37:04] Jason Hull: really a lot of the big concerns are just about the flexibility. "Do I have to go all in and use everything that you offer?"   [00:37:10] Jason Hull: Right.   [00:37:11] Jason Hull: "Or can I do, some of this and maybe I'll give up pieces later--" because some of y'all entrepreneurs are control freaks. Let's be real.    [00:37:18] Jason Hull: Yes.    [00:37:18] Jason Hull: And you need to let go of some of this stuff and let somebody else do it a little bit better. We have a lot of egos, entrepreneurs. We think our way is the best way all the time and we need to see that maybe somebody else could do this    [00:37:31] Ben: better.    [00:37:31] Ben: But we've also, from    [00:37:32] Jason Hull: experience--   [00:37:33] Jason Hull: I'm guessing you're going to say that Sunroom probably does it better than what most property managers are doing.    [00:37:39] Ben: Better NPS scores?    [00:37:41] Ben: Yeah. I would just say that, some of the property managers that we've seen are the most excited to partner with us are definitely probably the ones listening to your podcast or it's the ones that want to grow. And, we have some great examples of that, right? There's one property manager that we started working with in Austin a couple years ago, and they started with 300 doors. And now I believe they're up to 800 doors. And so by them being able to just, focus on other things, they were able to grow pretty quickly. And because we recognize this and we're starting to set up in these new markets, we actually just this week launched a new program specifically for trying to find these property management companies that are really focused on growth. And so we actually launched this new growth program. That we just put on our website where property managers can apply for the program. And essentially this program if we accept them will actually give them-- and they partner with us-- we'll give them $10,000 to grow their business. And they can, they could use that money for-- or I'd say up to 10,000-- they can use that money for helping them grow. And really the only terms of it is that you're willing to partner with us on leasing to do that. And so we have different ideas of really how to use that money to grow. I know a lot of entrepreneurs already have those ideas and so that's why we yeah, we set up this new program.   [00:39:02] Jason Hull: Awesome. We should chat because we're really good at growing property management companies and yeah, I think there would be a good-- there. We'll chat later. We've also negotiated with most of the top vendors where we've got a hit list, but a lot of the top vendors we're negotiating best in class discounts just for our mastermind members.   [00:39:21] Ben: There you go.    [00:39:21] Jason Hull: So maybe that's something you and I can do with the Sunroom as well. So    [00:39:25] Jason Hull: Yeah .   [00:39:26] Jason Hull: If you're open, that's--   [00:39:27] Jason Hull: yeah. Cool.    [00:39:28] Jason Hull: We've got some big players on board already for some of these things, but I think it'd be really cool to see this is something new and I think it's innovative and it seems really exciting. So we'll we'll chat afterwards, cool. Is there anything else you want people to know before we go and if The last thing maybe is how do they find you? And how do they get in touch and how do they start working with Sunroom?    [00:39:49] Ben: Yeah. Just go to our website, Sunroomleasing.com. Fill out a little form. Be happy to have, someone from our sales team reach out and have a conversation and kind of explain more of these details about what we do. I'm an engineer at heart, so I think for some people, maybe I went into too much detail. But at the same time, knowing I've talked to a lot of property managers they love the details. If you want even more details yeah, go to our website, sunroomleasing.com. Reach out to us and someone from our sales team would love to dig into those details with you.    [00:40:18] Jason Hull: Perfect. I think the last big question everybody would have is be, is going to be what does it cost? Is this affordable? Can we do this? That sort of question. So--   [00:40:29] Jason Hull: yeah.   [00:40:29] Jason Hull: Anything to say about that?    [00:40:31] Ben: Yeah, so we're going to charge, similar to what I would say like other leasing agents would. So we're going to charge like a percentage of first month's rent. That percentage of first month's rent that we charge. It's going to be different depending on the market and depending on what kind of volume that you have. Normally, the way we are setting this up is that we usually make it so that the property manager can still make good money on leasing while still utilizing us for all of it. Property managers can charge a percentage of first month's rent to their owners. That could be different by market. We're usually going to charge, call it 10- 20% less than that so that they're able to still make money on the leasing, but still know that they have a best in class service for that happening. And so that's just for full service. For Sunscreen, that's actually free for property managers to use. And we just charge the renter an application fee. And so that's really the easiest way. If we said a lot of stuff today, people are like, "wow that's a little scary to adopt that big of a, have a company owning leasing." a great way to start to just build a relationship with us and start seeing what we could do would be to start utilizing our application processing system, which, really, it's going to be a really a low risk thing. Even if want to test out having us do one application on one listing or something, we'd be happy to do that.   [00:41:48] Ben: That's the    [00:41:49] Jason Hull: gateway drug. A little bit of Sunscreen, and then you're going to be like, "I want a whole room. I want the Sunroom now."   [00:41:54] Jason Hull: There you go. There you go.    [00:41:55] Jason Hull: "I don't want to deal with this anymore. I'm tired of putting the Sunscreen on. Yeah. Okay.    [00:41:59] Jason Hull: There you go.    [00:42:00] Jason Hull: Cool.    [00:42:01] Jason Hull: Yeah.    [00:42:01] Jason Hull: All right. Ben, it's been great having you on the show. Check out Sunroomleasing.com and then if you come up with some major developments or big shifts or changes, we'd love to have you back on the show. So thanks for being    [00:42:12] Ben: here.    [00:42:13] Ben: Thanks so much, Jason. And yeah, we'll have to meet up in Austin sometime.    [00:42:16] Ben: All right.    [00:42:18] Jason Hull: All right. Cool. Thanks, Ben.    [00:42:20] Jason Hull: Alright. Everybody, if you've been listening to this, we appreciate you listening to our podcast. We would really appreciate it if you left us a review in exchange. If you got value from this, that would mean a lot to us at DoorGrow and my team. We have been innovating and creating a lot of new stuff at DoorGrow. We've got some really cool stuff coming out. So if you have not been familiar with DoorGrow for a while, we've got some really cool things coming down that we are working on. You should get connected to do a sales call. Check us out at doorgrow.com. Reach out to us. You can reach out to us on any social media. And we would love to connect with you and share with you. We just released the DoorGrow Code, which is the first roadmap that really showcases how to go from zero to a thousand doors in as short of time period as possible. It shows you which things you need to do at which stage, at which door levels, and what questions you have, what major problems you have at each stage, and what you need to do in order to do things in the right order to get to the next level.   [00:43:22] Jason Hull: So if you've been at a similar door count for the last year or maybe two years or three years, maybe even kind feeling stuck or maybe even backsliding a little bit because of property selling off or whatever. We have clients that are adding a lot of doors. Andrew Rocha just chimed in on one of our mastermind calls. He's one of our clients. He added like 50 doors in the last month. We've got clients. One of our clients added 310 doors in a year. We've got another client that added a hundred in gosh, they've doubled their doors. Like we've got clients that are growing really rapidly and they're not spending any money on advertising. I want you to be clear, like our methods are not focused on SEO, pay per click, content marketing, pay-per-lead lead services, social media marketing. Our methods are what really work in the marketplace, and most of them are zero cost, like they cost nothing. It just costs time and effort, and it actually takes less time and less effort than doing cold lead marketing like seo, pay per click, content marketing, social media marketing, or pay per lead services that exist in the property management space. So I highly recommend you check this out if you're wanting to grow. And we are now helping really significantly. We've built out the best systems and processes and we've been stacking the best coaches in the industry. If you've heard of certain coaches in the industry, we might have them on as experts in our program. We'll be announcing more of that later, but we've got some of the best in the industry that we've brought on as coaches. So it's not the Jason Show. I've got an amazing team of people coaching and we have systems for operations. We have systems for process. We have systems for sales, and our clients are crushing it. Nobody in the marketplace is doing all that DoorGrow's doing or can compete with us. And so if you think you know DoorGrow and you've looked at us or judged us in the past, it might be time to take a new look because your competitors might be working with us or they might work with us, and you're going to wish that it had been you.   [00:45:33] Jason Hull: So until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.    [00:45:37] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!    [00:46:05] Jason Hull: At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Ben and Mia, young zombies in love, search for the perfect xmas present in a world of the walking dead.    Cast List Mia - Brenda Dau Ben - Derek M. Koch                 of Mail Order Zombie Geek - Glen Hallstrom Tick - Frankenvox Chuck - Bob Noble Andy - Reynaud LeBoeuf Doris - Julie Hoverson Sheri - Crystal Thomson Ted - J. Spyder Isaacson Voicebox - Beverly Poole Fred & Bob - Big Anklevich           & Rish Outfield           of Dunesteef Audio Magazine Ben's Double - Danar Hoverson Mia's Double - Julie Hoverson Other zombies:  Al Aseoche, Jacquie Duckworth, Reynaud LeBoeuf, Jack Hosley, Sidney Williams, Glen Hallstrom, Bob Noble, Brian Weingartner, Ferguson and family, Robyn Keyes, Kim Poole, Michael Hudson. Music by Jason Shaw (Audionautix.com) Show theme:  Kevin MacLeod (Incompetech.com) Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock "What kind of a place is it? Why it's an apartment on the wrong side of town, can't you tell?" ******************************************************************************************** GIFT OF THE ZOMBI   Cast: [Opening credits - Olivia] Mia, zombie (20s) dating Ben Ben, zombie (20s) dating Mia Ted, zombie (30s), Mia's horny neighbor Andy, henpecked zombie (40s) Doris, Andy's wife (40s) Geek, a broker (30s) Sheri, a lovelorn friend (20s) Tick, an unscrupulous intact (human, 30s) Fred, a zombie (any) Bob, another zombie (any) Chuck, overseer zombie (any) Voicebox - mechanical translator   ALL ZOMBIES (unless noted as exceptions, below) have dual vocal tracks - the "zombie-voice" track, which is unintelligible, but vaguely mirrors the normal voice and events, and the "mind voice" (sounds like a voiceover), which is how they sound to each other.  /n = normal"mind voice" /z = "zombie voice" There are places where we only hear the zoombie voice.   Exceptions:  DORIS has no "mind voice", just incoherent shrieks GEEK only has a zombie voice, but he is clearly understandable, if still zombie-like TICK is human, and has no zombie-voice.   NOTE:  The zombie apocalypse has come and been dealt with more or less.  Zombies might still attack humans, if they see them, but humans tend to live in the walled cities and have become somewhat mythological to the zombies outside.  Zombies still are self-aware, but they think and speak so very slowly that they are difficult for humans to understand.  Conversely, to a zombie, humans seem to speak incredibly fast - almost incomprehensibly so.  That's why humans developed the voicebox to take what they say and slow it down enough for a zombie to understand. OLIVIA      Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's a crumbling apartment building, can't you tell?  MUSIC SCENE 1.     MIA'S APARTMENT SOUND      WIND-UP ALARM GOES OFF SOUND     FLIES IN THE B/G THROUGHOUT MIA/Z     [distant moan of awakening, which continues, sporadically,  punctuating the narrative] MIA/n     I hate Mondays.  SOUND     ALARM SLAPPED OFF TABLE, STOPS RINGING SOUND     STUMBLING FOOTSTEPS MUSIC     VAGUE WARPED CHRISTMAS CAROL PLAYS SOMEWHERE MIA/n     It doesn't help that it's two days til Christmas and I haven't got Ben his present. MIA/z     [roar of anger] SOUND      SOMETHING CRASHES TO FLOOR, GLASS BREAKS. MIA/N     The holidays just bring out the worst in me. SOUND     DOOR OPENS, FOOTSTEPS CONTINUE MIA/N     [sigh] Checking my stitches in the mirror - nice to see nothing weird happened in the night.  I love the hot pink against my pale skin.  [beat] I know I'm swimming against the tide, but I still like to look nice, even when no one else gives a hang.  They're welcome to run around unwashed, in raggedy-ass clothes, just leaves more Prada for me. SOUND     SPRAY CAN PSSHT, FLIES STOP, TINY DROPPING NOISES MIA/n     A little spray - no water, that's just asking for mold - and I'm ready to face the day. SOUND     [under the next] SHAMBLING FOOTSTEPS OUT OF BATHROOM AGAIN, STRUGGLES FEET INTO SHOES, NOW SHAMBLING FEET ARE IN HEELS.  MIA/n     Ben's gift is the big problem.  I know what I want to get him, but it won't come cheap.  There just aren't that many floating around out there. MUSIC       SCENE 2.     OUTSIDE SOUND     NO TRAFFIC. JUST BIRDS, SHAMBLING FOOTSTEPS, OR OCCASIONAL BREAKING THINGS. SOUND     STRUGGLE WITH OBJECTS, THINGS FALL AWAY BEN/z     [moans, fighting his way to his feet] BEN/n     [hungover sounding] Wow, what did I do last night?  BEN/z     [shake head noise] BEN/n     Oh, crap - Mia'll be expecting me-- SOUND     SHAMBLING FEET SPEED UP BEN/n     For all her persnickityness, Mia is totally the greatest babe around, and I am sooo lucky that I'm the one she's into.  I figured for the longest time that she was just slumming with a grot like me - right up until we really did it.  Went whole hog and did the handfast.  It's like always having a piece of her with me.  [note:  in this case, the handfast was actually trading hands.  zombies can buy and sell body parts and trade them with one another] ANDY/z     [morning] BEN/z     [yo!  How's it going?] ANDY/z     [falling moan, ending in a squeal] BEN/n     Don't I know it!  Man, if ever a guy was whipped, Andy is the poster boy.  He's gonna catch hell for not getting home to Doris last night.  Almost tempting to stay and see the fray, but meeting Mia is the only thing on my maggoty little mind right now. MUSIC   SCENE 3.     MIA'S STAIRCASE SOUND     BODY FALLS DOWN STAIRS, FOLLOWED BY THE CLATTER OF A SHOE. MIA/z     [distraught moan] MIA/n     Darn stair carpet.  Darn heels.  SOUND     FEELING AROUND FOR THE SHOE AND PUTTING IT BACK ON MIA/n     Alas, vanity doesn't come cheap.  Ben loves my little foibles.  He understands why it matters so much to me, to be beautiful for him.  Looking back at my pink stitches, almost tripping as I crane my neck to see, I wonder whether he will like them as much as I do. SOUND     SHAMBLING FEET IN HEELS AGAIN, ANOTHER SET OF FEET COMES ON TED/z     [moan approaches, vaguely suggestive] MIA/z     [dismissive moan] MIA/n     Not today, Ted.  I don't have time for any of your nonsense. TED/z     [moan ending in a squeak/question] MIA/n     I'm with Ben, Ted.  You know that.  I'm not giving up what I have with him.  He has my hand, and my promise.  He even has my heart ... just in the old-fashioned way. TED/z     [mournful and pissed moan] MIA/n     Yeah, yeah, yeah - if you were the last one on earth, maybe. MIA/z     [roar/moan as she brushes him aside] SOUND     STUMBLING FEET QUICKLY TO DOOR, SLAMS OPEN, TUMBLES THROUGH MIA/z     [roar of triumph] MIA/N     First time!! [made it on the first try!]  This is gonna be a great day! MUSIC   SCENE 4.     OUTSIDE, NEAR BEN ANDY/z     [cursing groan] ANDY/n     Come on, Ben.  Doris likes you!  If I say you needed my help, she'll buy it! BEN/z     [dismissive groan] SOUND     SHAMBLING FEET MOVING AWAY, STUMBLING AFTER ANDY/z     [dude] ANDY/N     Dude!  Come on-- DORIS/z     [distant strident squeal] ANDY/n     Oh, crap! SOUND     SOMETHING WET SPLATS ON PAVEMENT, THEN DISTANT FEET APPROACHING ANDY/z     [strange gurgling warble] ANDY/n     [sigh] I lose more tongues that way. DORIS/z     [strident squeal, closer] MUSIC   SCENE 5.     OUTSIDE NEAR MIA'S BUILDING SOUND     HIGH HEEL SHAMBLE MIA/z     [low moan] GEEK/z     [he speaks clear enough to understand, but still zombie-like] [hey, fingers!] MIA/z     [quizzical] MIA/n     Yeah, what's it to you? GEEK/z     [you got any to spare?] MIA/n     No!  I like mine right where they are. GEEK/z     [get you a good price.  Fingers are always top value.] MIA/z     [sharp moan of anger] MIA/n     Look - these five are my boyfriend's, and this one says-- MIA/z     [fuck you] GEEK/z     [you'll be back [louder] they always come back!!] MIA/n     Damn parts brokers - [jealous] always have the best tongues. MUSIC   SCENE 6.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE [note:  throughout the rest of the show, unless otherwise noted, appropriate zombie noises play under] MIA     [calling]  Hey babycakes! BEN     [off]  Yo sweet thang! SOUND     PLODDING FOOTSTEPS COME TOGETHER MIA     Mm.  Missed you! BEN     Double that. SOUND     DISGUSTING SLOPPY LICKY KISSY NOISES MIA     [mild slurp, then hot]  You are such a good kisser.  BEN     Don't know how I'd get up each day without you to look forward to. MIA     [giggles]  BEN     Let's walk.  Want to show you something. MIA     Oh?  Well, I've got a little time before hitting the old treadmill. BEN     You know I'd support you if I could-- MIA     I like looking after my own needs.  [flirting] Leaves you to look after my wants. BEN     Ooh! MUSIC   SCENE 7.     OUTSIDE, NEAR STORE SOUND     PLODDING FEET MIA     I should have worn more convenient shoes. BEN     Sorry!  Almost there. MIA     What is...it...?  [awe]  Oh! BEN     I thought you might say that.  Just saw them.  Of course, they're not cheap. MIA     [drooling -- zombie noises under get really slobbery] Patent leather, thigh high - oh, I'd never have to take them off! BEN     The heels aren't too high, are they? MIA     [sigh of ecstasy]  I love stacks... MUSIC   SCENE 8.     OUTSIDE, Later BEN     [bummed] I was right, she loved the boots. ANDY     And how much did you say they were? BEN     More than I've had in living memory. ANDY     At any one time? BEN     EVER.  ANDY     Woah.  Well, suppose you can hit the mills like the rest of us schmoes - if you're truly that desperate. BEN     [scoff noise]  The mills?  It'd take me ten years - and they'd probably sell by then. ANDY     What, then?  Go out snatching?  That's pretty much your only other option. BEN     [sighs]  I thought I might ask around, see what I could borrow-- ANDY     Woah, there!  You know Doris holds the purse strings! BEN     If I was going to snatch anyone, I'd snatch her - she's got enough body for three. ANDY     [musing] You know...  That's not a bad idea. BEN     [disturbed] Serious? ANDY     Nah.  I'd fall apart without her keeping me moving.  I guess that's love. BEN     [agreeing hmph] MUSIC   SCENE 9.     TREADMILLS SOUND     HEAVY WHIRRING NOISE UNDER.  DISTANT NORMAL STREET SOUNDS MIA     Hey! OTHER ZOMBIES     [Morning!] [nice to see you!] [Mia!  Looking good!] SOUND     MANY PLODDING FEET MIA     Hey Chuck!  Got a space? CHUCK     For you?  Always, babe.  Wanna lose the heels first? MIA     Brought my work shoes.  Just need a moment at the bench. CHUCK     I'd offer to help, but...[chuckles]  Thank god for velcro, eh? MIA     Hah!  I have all my fingers. CHUCK     [chuckles] Coulda fooled me - [teasing] That looks like your fellow's hand...? MIA     [chuckles]  Jealous? MUSIC   SCENE 10.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE [note - Ben has zombie noises under, geek does not - he always sounds like a zombie trying to talk] GEEK     [Psst.] BEN     What? GEEK     [heard you were having some money troubles.] BEN     What's it to you? GEEK     [I might be able to help you with that.] BEN     I don't think so.  I don't have anything I feel like selling. GEEK     [You got some extra fingers.  An entire hand that looks... spare] BEN     No way. Man!  That's - that's Mia's hand!  I should smack you with it just for suggesting that! GEEK     [Hey!  I don't want no trouble!  I'm just a businessman!] BEN     [spits out the word] Businessman.  You're a parts broker.  GEEK     [Yeah, and we both know you come to me when you need something, then you spit on me when I try to help you out.] SOUND     SHUFFLING FEET START TO LEAVE BEN     Wait. GEEK     [what?] BEN     What - what's in high demand? GEEK     [What?] BEN     I mean, if I was... going to sell something ...just if... what would you be [reluctant, forcing the words out] paying the best prices for? GEEK     [[chuckles] See?  When you need me--] BEN     Cut the crap and tell me. GEEK     [Appendages are always good.  Fingers, noses, ears.  And soft parts, like tongues and, uh.... [suggestive] you know.]  BEN     [gulp] GEEK     [Toes not so much - most just get by without - unless you have a complete foot somewhere - those are collectible, but only in pristine condition.  Eyes are pretty good, and you hardly need two.]  BEN     What about parts that - aren't mine? GEEK     [Stolen parts?  What makes you think I trade dirty?] BEN     Your type always does. GEEK     [[pissed again] My type?  My type?  I think you just talked yourself out of a good deal, pal.] BEN     Shit, I-- GEEK     [incoherent roar, as he leaves] MUSIC   SCENE 11.     TREADMILL AMB - underlying zombies moans, many many plodding feet MIA     [no specific moaning for this speech] Being on the treadmill gives you plenty of time to think.  You stare at the back of the guy in front of you and wonder what's going through his head.  Ben doesn't like the nine to five, but I figure - heck, you gotta do something, and if you feel the urge to walk, might as well get paid for it, right? SOUND     SOMEONE CLIMBS ON THE TREADMILL [vocals have zombie noises under again] TED     Hey Mia! MIA     [sigh] Hi Ted. TED     Funny running into you here.  Shove over? MIA     Right.  Like I don't do this every day.  No room. SHERI     Hey Mia! [warm] Hey Ted. TED     [dismissive] Sheri. [wheedling] Come on, Mia, squeeze in a little.  There's space next to you if you make room. MIA     Sorry, Ted [she's not].  Been saving that for... Sheri. SHERI     Huh? TED     Sheri won't mind - will you? SHERI     I - I guess not... MIA     Oh, no Ted.  We have girl talking to do.  Bye-bye.  Hop up Sheri. TED     Fine.  See you at end of shift? MIA     [muttered] Not if I see you first.  SOUND     TED FLOPS OFF MIA     [up]  I don't know what you see in him, Sher. SHERI     Neither do I.  Pheromones I guess. MIA     Well, he does smell. SHERI     [on an ecstatic sigh] Yes. MIA     [ugh]  Hey, Sher, I gotta problem. SHERI     Oh?  [horrified] You didn't... break up with Ben? MIA     No!  Why would you say that? SHERI     Nothing. MIA     Did you hear something, or are you just worried that Ted might somehow luck out and catch me on the rebound? SHERI     Um.  The second one. MIA     Kinda thought so.  O-K, passing over your insecurity, can we discuss my problem? SHERI     [relieved] Sure! MIA     I found the perfect present for Ben, and I don't know how I'm gonna afford it.  SHERI     You mean...um...what you said he's missing? MIA     Yeah.  All his fleshy parts haven't lasted so well - I keep telling him that sleeping rough isn't good for him, but he hates being cooped up.  Says being nibbled on by rats is preferable to a cage. SHERI     You live in a cage? MIA     He means an apartment.  SHERI     Oh.  Well, I'm sure he looks fine without one.  You see plenty of missing ones out there every day. [NOTE:  they're discussing noses, but it makes it sound like something more suggestive] MIA     I know, but he would - well, from things he's said, he would actually LIKE one.  Make him feel like a new man.  I thought I might get him one of those artificial ones - you know, cast in plastic?  In a skin tone, though - not one of those weird colored ones. SHERI     They're all the rage with the trendoids these days, the neon ones.  I guess they figure if it's gonna look fakey, might as well make a statement.  And some of them get freakishly big. MIA     Well, I found a place to get something real high quality.  Won't look fake at all.  They'll even tint it to match his skin.  And it won't rot or fall off.  Guaranteed to last.  Not even a nibble. SHERI     It won't make him smell any better. MIA     No, but I get the feeling he would be more secure in our relationship if he - well - if he fit more the image he thinks I'd go for. SHERI     Someone with all their parts? MIA     Oh, heck.  I'd love Ben with or without any number of parts, but he seems to think I'd like him better if he actually had a nose. SHERI     [hmm]  I could maybe loan you a little-- MIA     No, this guy charges a bunch.  I'm actually tempted to sell a part or two - something I don't use, or not so much, you know? SHERI     Don't go there.  Starts out simple, a finger here, an ear there, and then - voila!  You end up checking people in at work like "Chuck, the torso" - stuck in admin cuz you got no limbs left.  Or worse - that guy who talks out his neck since he woke up one morning and his head was gone. MIA     [sigh] You're probably right.  MUSIC   SCENE 12.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE AMB     SLIGHT ECHO - AND A DRIP SOMEWHERE SOUND     FLOPPY STEPS IN WATER [note     Tick speaks slowly and has no zombie echo, Ben sounds completely zombie - no voice over - for this scene TICK     You looking for me? BEN     [gasp] [what?] SOUND     STUMBLE FLOPPY STEPS IN WATER TICK     Don't bother - just stand still. BEN     [you're a - an intact?] TICK     And you're a dead lump of shit, but maybe we can help each other. BEN     [moan of acceptance] TICK     Good.  Now stay quiet while I tell you what we're doing here. BEN     [slurpy gasp] TICK     That's disgusting.  But I need a heap like you to front for me.  I have some... parts... to be disposed of, but I can't just wander into maggotville myself.  BEN     [Why me?] TICK     My source says you're tough and desperate.  And stupid. BEN     [stifled annoyed noise] TICK     So maybe he's wrong.  BEN     [I am desperate] TICK     [snort]  Fine.  Here's the deal - I don't give a flying fluck about your crappy corpse cash.  On the other hand, I like having folks - dead or alive - who owe me. BEN     [What you need from me?] TICK     I'll tell you when it comes up.  Right now, I just need this bag of ... parts to vanish.  BEN     [It's illegal.] TICK     [cajoling] They're nice and fresh.  [impatient] Fine.  Clock is ticking.  Tick tock.  Tick tock.  You even remember what "time" is, maggot? BEN     [It's almost Christmas.  [beat] I'll do it.] MUSIC   SCENE 13.     TREADMILL SOUND     TREADMILL, FEET PLODDING SHERI     You ever wonder what they do over there? MIA     [lost in a daze] Hmm?  Over the wall? SHERI      Yeah.  The [awed whisper] In-tacts? MIA     Don't know.  Don't care.  Except for when they come over here and drag off my friends, I say leave them alone.  SHERI     But you do believe in them, don't you? MIA     Believe in them?  What's to believe - we see them marching on the wall, and they're the ones who shell out for us to walk on this damn treadmill day and night.  They're as real as ... as... shoes.  SHERI     Some say we all came from in-tacts, way back when. MIA     [lightly sarcastic] Yes, and a wasp nest in your head is a sign of good luck and not just poor hygiene.  I swear Sheri, you'll believe anything. SHERI     You believe they carry people off, though? MIA     Well, yeah - we've all seen that.  They appear from nowhere, in those dark helmets and suits, and by the time you catch your breath, someone's vanished. SHERI     [awed] I saw one once. MIA     A kidnapping? SHERI     An in-tact. MIA     [half-teasing, half worried] You know, they say if you mentioned them three times, they'll appear out of thin air. SHERI     [agreeing, distant] They are really fast. MIA     [exasperated] Sheri!  Don't-- SHERI     I did, though!  I really saw one.  Not just in a suit and helmet like they usually are, but one right... up... close. MIA     [sighs, feels her pain]  Tell me about it? SHERI     It was a guy, I think, and the funny part is he looked so much like a regular person.  Just that he was so fast and he was - well - he had everything.  His skin was perfect, no holes or anything, and it was this warm rosy color.  I... yearned to touch him, but when I reached out, he turned and ran away.  MIA     [uncertain] That...must have been ....weird. SHERI     [almost teary] It was like I saw an angel, and it saw something horrible in me. MIA     Oh, Sheri-- SHERI     Maybe that's why Ted won't love me?  Because I'm horrible inside? MIA     Aw, Sheri.  [reassuring] We're all horrible inside.  And if anyone's seen an angel here and not realized it, Ted's the one.  He sees you every day and misses out every time he turns his back. SHERI     [sniff sniff] MUSIC   SCENE 14.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE SOUND     BAG PASSED WITH A SQUISH GEEK     [you sure you don't want any of them?] BEN     [upset] I... don't need any girl parts, thanks. GEEK     [Squeamish?  All you had to do was lug a bunch of fresh merchandise here to my humble workshop.] BEN     I've never.... felt... they were so [disgusted] warm. GEEK     [Fresher just means it'll last longer.  Nothing more.  You want your pay or not?] BEN     [down] Yeah. MUSIC   SCENE 15.     TREADMILL SHERI     --you know that guy Sam I was dating? MIA     [worn down] Yeah? SHERI     And how he was always mouthing off about-- SOUND     WHISTLE, END OF SHIFT MIA     [heartfelt] Oh yesss!  What a relief! SHERI     [not getting it] Yeah!  Let's go somewhere - I was in the middle of telling you about Sam. MIA     [almost panicky] Nah, save it for next time - I have to meet up with Ben. SHERI     It's so great to have someone to talk to while we walk - Tomorrow, same time? MIA     [transparently lying] Sure!  Oh, no - wait - I promised I would do this thing with Ben tomorrow. SHERI     What thing? MIA     [panicky, trying to cover] You mean I didn't mention the thing? I--uh-- SOUND     DISTANT ZOMBIE NOISES AND SCREAMS SHERI     What the--? MIA     Come on! SOUND     SLOW PLODDING.  LARGE GROUP OF ZOMBIES GATHERING MUSIC   SCENE 16.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE SOUND      SLOW PLODDING, ONE SET OF FEET ANDY     [distant] Ben!  Ben! BEN     [sigh] SOUND     PLODDING STOPS BEN     Yeah? SOUND     ANDY'S FEET APPROACH ANDY     [panicky] Ben, man, am I glad to see you - it's Doris!  Jeez, she slipped and I think something's broken! BEN     [muttered] Lucky you. [up] What do you mean? ANDY     Her leg - it snapped and now she can't get up!  What am I gonna do, Ben? BEN     Andy, Doris is such a-- ANDY     I know I know.  She gives me hell and treats me like a dog, but what can I do, Ben, I love her!  You gotta help me.  I'll do anything! BEN     Let me take a look. MUSIC   SCENE 17.     ALTERCATION SOUND     LOTS OF SHAMBLING FEET, MOANS MIA     What happened? SHERI     Where's everyone going? FRED     It's one of the overseers! MIA     An in-tact?  What happened? BOB     I seen the whole thing!  He fell off the wall and someone made a grab fer him! SHERI     Oh no! FRED     Oh, yeah!  He's somewhere in the middle of the dogpile there. MIA     Isn't anyone helping? BOB     What are you, some kind of pervert?  This is an [spits out the word] In-tact.  [excited] They're tearing him apart! MIA     We should get out of here! SHERI     B-but - They're gonna kill him! MIA     [sad] I know, and there's nothing we can do about it.  And we want to be out of here before they bring out the big guns. SOUND     DRAGGING, SHUFFLING AWAY FROM THE FRACAS SHERI     But what if he's that same one I saw before? MIA     By now - you probably wouldn't know him.  MUSIC   SCENE 18.     ANDY'S PLACE DORIS     [squeals piteously] BEN     Yep, that's a bad one.  Twisted all up like this. ANDY     Can't we do anything? BEN     I'm no reconstructor.  Maybe some duct tape and a stick? DORIS      [Squeals angrily] ANDY     He's just trying to help, honeybuunny. BEN     Yeah, chill honeybunny. DORIS     [squeals again, sort, sharp, warning.] ANDY     [quiet] You gotta help me, Ben - you're the only one I can turn to! BEN     Jeez Andy... [sigh]  You'll pay me back? ANDY     You know I'm good for it!  Soon as that leg's on, we'll both hit the treads every day til we cover it. BEN     [down] Sure.  I-- ANDY     Yes? BEN     [muttered] I didn't like the way it felt anyway.  [up] Here.  SOUND     PACKAGE CHANGES SLOPPY HANDS ANDY     What - is it? BEN     Enough to get her fixed up - you might go ahead and get her a new tongue while you're at it. ANDY     [very quiet] Oh.  No.  Let's not go completely overboard... MUSIC   SCENE 19.     OUTSIDE, LATER, TOGETHER SOUND     OUTSIDE. SHUFFLING FEET APPROACH MIA     There you are - I was beginning to worry. SOUND     BODY FALLS TO THE GROUND "ben relaxes" BEN     [oof, then] It's been a really... weird day. SOUND     BODY FALLS TO THE GROUND "mia relaxes" MIA     [oof, then agreeing] Tell me about it. BEN     [muttered] I would if I could. MIA     Hmm? BEN     Nah.  Doris broke her leg and Andy needed help with getting her fixed up. MIA     They better get her a good big leg.  She goes through so darn many. BEN     Really? It's happened before? MIA     Every couple of years.  I think the last time was before you showed up here. BEN     I am such a sucker. MIA     Whenever you start thinking like that, just look at Andy.  That'd make anyone feel superior. BEN     You always know just the right thing to say. MIA     Can't help it.  We're in tune.  BEN     Yeah, I guess we are.  About Christmas-- MIA     Don't worry - I love the boots! BEN     Oh, the boots... MIA     But only if you can afford them.  If you can't, I might be able to get them myself.  [sexy] You still get to enjoy them, though. BEN     [grim] I'll get them-- MIA     [sorry] I was just teasing. BEN     Don't worry.  [softening]  Like I said, it's been a really strange day. MUSIC   SCENE 20.     SEWER AGAIN TICK     [really fast] Yeah what? BEN     [slow gasp] TICK     [fast] crap. [deliberately going slower, down to normal speed]  What do you want? BEN     Geek said you have another job? TICK     Not so much a job as a favor. BEN     Need money. TICK     What happened to the packet I gave you before?  Never mind - don't want to know.  [speeding up a bit] Look.  I'm not some magic money tree. BEN     Oh. TICK     [slowing again]  See right now, you owe me a favor - but I can be gracious about it.  You give me what I need, and I will advance you what you need against the next job I give you.  Sound good? BEN     [carefully articulating] You pay now for next job if I do favor? TICK     There you go.  [quick] not so damn stupid after all. MUSIC   SCENE 21.     MIA'S APARTMENT SOUND     ALARM CLOCK SOUND      KNOCKED OFF TABLE MIA     [just like at beginning]  I hate Mondays. SOUND     DOORBELL RINGS MIA     Huh? MIA/Z     coming! SOUND     BAREFOOT SHUFFLE SOUND      DOORBELL RINGS AGAIN, QUICKLY AND REPEATEDLY MIA/Z     Hold your damn horses! SOUND      DOORKNOB FUMBLES, DOOR IS SLAMMED OPEN. SOUND     BODY FALLS MIA/Z     [annoyed] hey! SOUND     FEET MOVE QUICKLY INTO APARTMENT, SLAM DOOR MIA/Z     [scared] Who are you--? SOUND     SUPER-QUICK WHISPERED VOICES IN BACKGROUND VOICEBOX     [mechanical voice]  You were at the altercation near the wall yesterday. MIA/z     uhhh VOICEBOX     Yes or no.  We ask yes or no questions.  Answer yes or no. MIA/z     yesss. VOICEBOX     Did you take part-- MIA/z     NO! VOICEBOX     Did you see any of those who did? MIA/z     [uncertain] no. VOICEBOX     There was another female with you.  Did it see anything? MIA     Sheri? MIA/z     No. VOICEBOX     Please identify this female. MIA/z     No. VOICEBOX     That was not a question.  Identify the female that was with you. MIA     Yeah, right. MIA/z     [incoherent moan] VOICEBOX     Speak clearly. MIA/z     Naaame isss [incoherent moan] VOICEBOX     We are prepared to remove parts if you do not cooperate.  SOUND     STRUGGLE, KNIFE SNICKS OPEN MIA/z     ohh! MIA     No!  that's Ben's! [the hand they're threatening] VOICEBOX     Last chance.  The name. MIA/z     Naaame isss shhh-jerry  VOICEBOX     Jerry? MIA/z     [reluctantly agreeing] Uh-huh. VOICEBOX     Good.  [commanding, disgusted] Let it go. SOUND     BODY FLUNG TO FLOOR MIA/z     [moans unhappily] SOUND     FEET MARCH CRISPLY AWAY MUSIC   SCENE 22.     SEWER BEN     You want WHAT? TICK     Not like you'll miss it. BEN     I-I don't-- TICK     Hey, take it or leave it.  You owe me, but not like I'm gonna wrestle you down and steal it from you.  I got people - and your kind - who can do that for me. BEN     When you need? TICK     [irritated, speeding up] What do you mean when?  You think I don't mean now? [like the crack of doom, slowly and clearly] Now! BEN     Now... TICK     Tick-tock. BEN     [moans uncertainly, then glumly] yeah... MUSIC   SCENE 23.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE MIA/z      [muffled whispered moans] MIA      Psst! SHERI     Mia?  What's with the getup? MIA      Get over here! SOUND     SHUFFLING SHERI/z     [whiny querulous moan] SHERI     What? MIA      Ok, no one can see us-- SHERI     You look like a clown. MIA      Shh!  Sheri, have any of the overseers [gulps] "talked" to you? SHERI     In-tacts?  No! MIA      They found me.  They'll find you.  They want to know who killed that - in-tact - yesterday in the riot. SHERI     Gary?  Why? MIA      No-no-no-no!  I don't WANT to know who did it!  They're asking, and they threatened to cut... off-- [sob] Th-they threatened me!  SHERI     [still not understanding it] Why? MIA      They want to get the one who did it, I suppose!  They'll come after you! SHERI     How will they know to come for me? MIA      [evasive] Well - how did - how did they know to come for me? SHERI     Oh! MIA      So now you're warned - stay away from the treadmill! SHERI     [annoyed moan] MIA     Well, I wanted to warn you.  SOUND     MIA STARTS TO WALK AWAY, STRANGELY LIMPING SHERI     What's wrong?  Mia?  You're limping. MIA     Nothing.  Figured if I can't make the treadmill for a while, I'd need something to live on. SOUND     STUMBLING FEET APPROACH SHERI and MIA     [gasping moans] FRED     [gasp]  Oh, hey!  Don't tell anyone I'm here. MIA      They found you too? FRED     I - I heard they're coming - how'd you know? SHERI     We saw it happen. FRED     Woah!  You better hide.  Least for a while.  They're taking folks again. MUSIC   SCENE 24.     MIA'S APARTMENT  BEN     Mia? SOUND     TAPPING ON DOOR, DOOR CREAKS OPEN BEN     [worried now]  Mia? TED     [off, questioning moan] BEN     You Ted? TED     yeah [affirmative moan, voice getting clearer] BEN     Where the hell's Mia? TED     She took some stuff and left.  What's it to you? SOUND     SHUFFLE TURN BEN     I'm Ben. TED     Ugh!  What the hell does she see in you? MUSIC   SCENE 25.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE MIA     [off a bit]  Ben? BEN     [phantom of the opera cringing noise] What? MIA     Ben - I'm over here. BEN     Mia - don't look. MIA     [almost laughing] What? BEN     Please. MIA     All right.  I'll close my eyes. BEN     Thanks.  SOUND     SHUFFLING STEPS TO MIA BEN     Why are you hiding? MIA     I saw something - there are in-tacts maybe looking for me.  I don't know. BEN     They're just full of surprises, aren't they? MIA     Are they? SOUND     MOMENT OF JUST PLODDING ALONG TOGETHER BEN     Helluva way to spend the holidays. MIA     It is Christmas, isn't it?  [beat]  Can I look now? BEN     No!  [short barking laugh]  I - I know it's silly for me to be vain, but, uh - I lost something. MIA     I got you something! BEN     Don't turn around-- Ohhhh. [disappointed] MIA     [concerned] What happened? BEN     Some guy named Gary needed a new face.  MIA     [concerned for him] I hope you got something good for it. BEN     Actually I did.  Take off your shoes. MIA     [more panicked than should be] No! BEN     Don't worry - I'll carry them for you. MIA     No - I...  I kind of needed to make a trade too.  BEN     Your leg--? MIA     I guess feet with toes are sort of collectable. BEN     Oh.  I hope ... [chuckles]  I hope you got something good for it. MIA     [laughs a bit]  SOUND     STICKY SOUND AS SHE STROKES HIS RAW FLESH MIA     At least you kept your lips.  BEN     Are you kidding?  Had to keep those - they're my best feature. MIA     Well, here's a new one, but I don't know how it will go on - you might have to wait until you have a place to hang it again. SOUND     PACKAGE UNWRAPS, OPENS BEN     It's beautiful. MIA     It's latex.  It won't rot or get chewed on by rats.  I think I got the right color, but now - BEN     It's a fine nose. MIA     Not too big?  I mean, I never saw you with-- BEN     It's perfect. MIA     We should get going.  If they're still after me, we'll have to ... find some place else to-- BEN     Waitaminute.  Now you have to open yours. MIA     Oh, you--! SOUND     UNWRAPPING OF PAPER MIA     The patent leather! BEN     Yeah.  You know, maybe you could brace and stuff them-- MIA     It's just the one foot. BEN     Ok, stuff the one, and still walk on it. MIA     Not if we're going a long way - I don't want these puppies to get worn out on any stupid road trip.  [ecstatic intake of breath]  This is the best Christmas ever! BEN     You know?  I think you're right...  Here, take my hand. MIA     [teasing sweetly] That's my hand. BEN     Come on.  [grunt to help her up] MIA     Which way? [their voices, along with their moaning and plodding footsteps, begin to slowly fade out] BEN     A wise man once said "the sun never sets on those who ride into it".  [the quote is from the end of Shock Treatment] MIA     Which wise man was that? BEN     Um.... MIA     Are we talking like "three wise men" kind of wise man? BEN     Um - no.  I think it was... Richard O'Brien. MIA     Who? BEN     You know, the time warp guy. MIA     Oh, man - I haven't been to THAT movie in months. CLOSER  "The Gift of the Magi" is a famous story by O. Henry where a newlywed couple (around 1900) each sell something to buy the other a present - He sells his watch to get her a fancy hair comb and she sells her long hair to get him a new watch fob.  The entire story is inspired by this.    

About BenBen Whaley is a staff software engineer at Chime. Ben is co-author of the UNIX and Linux System Administration Handbook, the de facto standard text on Linux administration, and is the author of two educational videos: Linux Web Operations and Linux System Administration. He is an AWS Community Hero since 2014. Ben has held Red Hat Certified Engineer (RHCE) and Certified Information Systems Security Professional (CISSP) certifications. He earned a B.S. in Computer Science from Univ. of Colorado, Boulder.Links Referenced: Chime Financial: https://www.chime.com/ alternat.cloud: https://alternat.cloud Twitter: https://twitter.com/iamthewhaley LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benwhaley/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Forget everything you know about SSH and try Tailscale. Imagine if you didn't need to manage PKI or rotate SSH keys every time someone leaves. That'd be pretty sweet, wouldn't it? With Tailscale SSH, you can do exactly that. Tailscale gives each server and user device a node key to connect to its VPN, and it uses the same node key to authorize and authenticate SSH.Basically you're SSHing the same way you manage access to your app. What's the benefit here? Built-in key rotation, permissions as code, connectivity between any two devices, reduce latency, and there's a lot more, but there's a time limit here. You can also ask users to reauthenticate for that extra bit of security. Sounds expensive?Nope, I wish it were. Tailscale is completely free for personal use on up to 20 devices. To learn more, visit snark.cloud/tailscale. Again, that's snark.cloud/tailscaleCorey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn and this is an episode unlike any other that has yet been released on this august podcast. Let's begin by introducing my first-time guest somehow because apparently an invitation got lost in the mail somewhere. Ben Whaley is a staff software engineer at Chime Financial and has been an AWS Community Hero since Andy Jassy was basically in diapers, to my level of understanding. Ben, welcome to the show.Ben: Corey, so good to be here. Thanks for having me on.Corey: I'm embarrassed that you haven't been on the show before. You're one of those people that slipped through the cracks and somehow I was very bad at following up slash hounding you into finally agreeing to be here. But you certainly waited until you had something auspicious to talk about.Ben: Well, you know, I'm the one that really should be embarrassed here. You did extend the invitation and I guess I just didn't feel like I had something to drop. But I think today we have something that will interest most of the listeners without a doubt.Corey: So, folks who have listened to this podcast before, or read my newsletter, or follow me on Twitter, or have shared an elevator with me, or at any point have passed me on the street, have heard me complain about the Managed NAT Gateway and it's egregious data processing fee of four-and-a-half cents per gigabyte. And I have complained about this for small customers because they're in the free tier; why is this thing charging them 32 bucks a month? And I have complained about this on behalf of large customers who are paying the GDP of the nation of Belize in data processing fees as they wind up shoving very large workloads to and fro, which is I think part of the prerequisite requirements for having a data warehouse. And you are no different than the rest of these people who have those challenges, with the singular exception that you have done something about it, and what you have done is so, in retrospect, blindingly obvious that I am embarrassed the rest of us never thought of it.Ben: It's interesting because when you are doing engineering, it's often the simplest solution that is the best. I've seen this repeatedly. And it's a little surprising that it didn't come up before, but I think it's in some way, just a matter of timing. But what we came up with—and is this the right time to get into it, do you want to just kind of name the solution, here?Corey: Oh, by all means. I'm not going to steal your thunder. Please, tell us what you have wrought.Ben: We're calling it AlterNAT and it's an alternative solution to a high-availability NAT solution. As everybody knows, NAT Gateway is sort of the default choice; it certainly is what AWS pushes everybody towards. But there is, in fact, a legacy solution: NAT instances. These were around long before NAT Gateway made an appearance. And like I said they're considered legacy, but with the help of lots of modern AWS innovations and technologies like Lambdas and auto-scaling groups with max instance lifetimes and the latest generation of networking improved or enhanced instances, it turns out that we can maybe not quite get as effective as a NAT Gateway, but we can save a lot of money and skip those data processing charges entirely by having a NAT instance solution with a failover NAT Gateway, which I think is kind of the key point behind the solution. So, are you interested in diving into the technical details?Corey: That is very much the missing piece right there. You're right. What we used to use was NAT instances. That was the thing that we used because we didn't really have another option. And they had an interface in the public subnet where they lived and an interface hanging out in the private subnet, and they had to be configured to wind up passing traffic to and fro.Well, okay, that's great and all but isn't that kind of brittle and dangerous? I basically have a single instance as a single point of failure and these are the days early on when individual instances did not have the level of availability and durability they do now. Yeah, it's kind of awful, but here you go. I mean, the most galling part of the Managed NAT Gateway service is not that it's expensive; it's that it's expensive, but also incredibly good at what it does. You don't have to think about this whole problem anymore, and as of recently, it also supports ipv4 to ipv6 translation as well.It's not that the service is bad. It's that the service is stonkingly expensive, particularly at scale. And everything that we've seen before is either oh, run your own NAT instances or bend your knee and pays your money. And a number of folks have come up with different options where this is ridiculous. Just go ahead and run your own NAT instances.Yeah, but what happens when I have to take it down for maintenance or replace it? It's like, well, I guess you're not going to the internet today. This has the, in hindsight, obvious solution, well, we just—we run the Managed NAT Gateway because the 32 bucks a year in instance-hour charges don't actually matter at any point of scale when you're doing this, but you wind up using that for day in, day out traffic, and the failover mode is simply you'll use the expensive Managed NAT Gateway until the instance is healthy again and then automatically change the route table back and forth.Ben: Yep. That's exactly it. So, the auto-scaling NAT instance solution has been around for a long time well, before even NAT Gateway was released. You could have NAT instances in an auto-scaling group where the size of the group was one, and if the NAT instance failed, it would just replace itself. But this left a period in which you'd have no internet connectivity during that, you know, when the NAT instance was swapped out.So, the solution here is that when auto-scaling terminates an instance, it fails over the route table to a standby NAT Gateway, rerouting the traffic. So, there's never a point at which there's no internet connectivity, right? The NAT instance is running, processing traffic, gets terminated after a certain period of time, configurable, 14 days, 30 days, whatever makes sense for your security strategy could be never, right? You could choose that you want to have your own maintenance window in which to do it.Corey: And let's face it, this thing is more or less sitting there as a network traffic router, for lack of a better term. There is no need to ever log into the thing and make changes to it until and unless there's a vulnerability that you can exploit via somehow just talking to the TCP stack when nothing's actually listening on the host.Ben: You know, you can run your own AMI that has been pared down to almost nothing, and that instance doesn't do much. It's using just a Linux kernel to sit on two networks and pass traffic back and forth. It has a translation table that kind of keeps track of the state of connections and so you don't need to have any service running. To manage the system, we have SSM so you can use Session Manager to log in, but frankly, you can just disable that. You almost never even need to get a shell. And that is, in fact, an option we have in the solution is to disable SSM entirely.Corey: One of the things I love about this approach is that it is turnkey. You throw this thing in there and it's good to go. And in the event that the instance becomes unhealthy, great, it fails traffic over to the Managed NAT Gateway while it terminates the old node and replaces it with a healthy one and then fails traffic back. Now, I do need to ask, what is the story of network connections during that failover and failback scenario?Ben: Right, that's the primary drawback, I would say, of the solution is that any established TCP connections that are on the NAT instance at the time of a route change will be lost. So, say you have—Corey: TCP now terminates on the floor.Ben: Pretty much. The connections are dropped. If you have an open SSH connection from a host in the private network to a host on the internet and the instance fails over to the NAT Gateway, the NAT Gateway doesn't have the translation table that the NAT instance had. And not to mention, the public IP address also changes because you have an Elastic IP assigned to the NAT instance, a different Elastic IP assigned to the NAT Gateway, and so because that upstream IP is different, the remote host is, like, tracking the wrong IP. So, those connections, they're going to be lost.So, there are some use cases where this may not be suitable. We do have some ideas on how you might mitigate that, for example, with the use of a maintenance window to schedule the replacement, replaced less often so it doesn't have to affect your workflow as much, but frankly, for many use cases, my belief is that it's actually fine. In our use case at Chime, we found that it's completely fine and we didn't actually experience any errors or failures. But there might be some use cases that are more sensitive or less resilient to failure in the first place.Corey: I would also point out that a lot of how software is going to behave is going to be a reflection of the era in which it was moved to cloud. Back in the early days of EC2, you had no real sense of reliability around any individual instance, so everything was written in a very defensive manner. These days, with instances automatically being able to flow among different hardware so we don't get instance interrupt notifications the way we once did on a semi-constant basis, it more or less has become what presents is bulletproof, so a lot of people are writing software that's a bit more brittle. But it's always been a best practice that when a connection fails okay, what happens at failure? Do you just give up and throw your hands in the air and shriek for help or do you attempt to retry a few times, ideally backing off exponentially?In this scenario, those retries will work. So, it's a question of how well have you built your software. Okay, let's say that you made the worst decisions imaginable, and okay, if that connection dies, the entire workload dies. Okay, you have the option to refactor it to be a little bit better behaved, or alternately, you can keep paying the Manage NAT Gateway tax of four-and-a-half cents per gigabyte in perpetuity forever. I'm not going to tell you what decision to make, but I know which one I'm making.Ben: Yeah, exactly. The cost savings potential of it far outweighs the potential maintenance troubles, I guess, that you could encounter. But the fact is, if you're relying on Managed NAT Gateway and paying the price for doing so, it's not as if there's no chance for connection failure. NAT Gateway could also fail. I will admit that I think it's an extremely robust and resilient solution. I've been really impressed with it, especially so after having worked on this project, but it doesn't mean it can't fail.And beyond that, upstream of the NAT Gateway, something could in fact go wrong. Like, internet connections are unreliable, kind of by design. So, if your system is not resilient to connection failures, like, there's a problem to solve there anyway; you're kind of relying on hope. So, it's a kind of a forcing function in some ways to build architectural best practices, in my view.Corey: I can't stress enough that I have zero problem with the capabilities and the stability of the Managed NAT Gateway solution. My complaints about it start and stop entirely with the price. Back when you first showed me the blog post that is releasing at the same time as this podcast—and you can visit that at alternat.cloud—you sent me an early draft of this and what I loved the most was that your math was off because of a not complete understanding of the gloriousness that is just how egregious the NAT Gateway charges are.Your initial analysis said, “All right, if you're throwing half a terabyte out to the internet, this has the potential of cutting the bill by”—I think it was $10,000 or something like that. It's, “Oh no, no. It has the potential to cut the bill by an entire twenty-two-and-a-half thousand dollars.” Because this processing fee does not replace any egress fees whatsoever. It's purely additive. If you forget to have a free S3 Gateway endpoint in a private subnet, every time you put something into or take something out of S3, you're paying four-and-a-half cents per gigabyte on that, despite the fact there's no internet transitory work, it's not crossing availability zones. It is simply a four-and-a-half cent fee to retrieve something that has only cost you—at most—2.3 cents per month to store in the first place. Flip that switch, that becomes completely free.Ben: Yeah. I'm not embarrassed at all to talk about the lack of education I had around this topic. The fact is I'm an engineer primarily and I came across the cost stuff because it kind of seemed like a problem that needed to be solved within my organization. And if you don't mind, I might just linger on this point and kind of think back a few months. I looked at the AWS bill and I saw this egregious ‘EC2 Other' category. It was taking up the majority of our bill. Like, the single biggest line item was EC2 Other. And I was like, “What could this be?”Corey: I want to wind up flagging that just because that bears repeating because I often get people pushing back of, “Well, how bad—it's one Managed NAT Gateway. How much could it possibly cost? $10?” No, it is the majority of your monthly bill. I cannot stress that enough.And that's not because the people who work there are doing anything that they should not be doing or didn't understand all the nuances of this. It's because for the security posture that is required for what you do—you are at Chime Financial, let's be clear here—putting everything in public subnets was not really a possibility for you folks.Ben: Yeah. And not only that but there are plenty of services that have to be on private subnets. For example, AWS Glue services must run in private VPC subnets if you want them to be able to talk to other systems in your VPC; like, they cannot live in public subnet. So essentially, if you want to talk to the internet from those jobs, you're forced into some kind of NAT solution. So, I dug into the EC2 Other category and I started trying to figure out what was going on there.There's no way—natively—to look at what traffic is transiting the NAT Gateway. There's not an interface that shows you what's going on, what's the biggest talkers over that network. Instead, you have to have flow logs enabled and have to parse those flow logs. So, I dug into that.Corey: Well, you're missing a step first because in a lot of environments, people have more than one of these things, so you get to first do the scavenger hunt of, okay, I have a whole bunch of Managed NAT Gateways and first I need to go diving into CloudWatch metrics and figure out which are the heavy talkers. Is usually one or two followed by a whole bunch of small stuff, but not always, so figuring out which VPC you're even talking about is a necessary prerequisite.Ben: Yeah, exactly. The data around it is almost missing entirely. Once you come to the conclusion that it is a particular NAT Gateway—like, that's a set of problems to solve on its own—but first, you have to go to the flow logs, you have to figure out what are the biggest upstream IPs that it's talking to. Once you have the IP, it still isn't apparent what that host is. In our case, we had all sorts of outside parties that we were talking to a lot and it's a matter of sorting by volume and figuring out well, this IP, what is the reverse IP? Who is potentially the host there?I actually had some wrong answers at first. I set up VPC endpoints to S3 and DynamoDB and SQS because those were some top talkers and that was a nice way to gain some security and some resilience and save some money. And then I found, well, Datadog; that's another top talker for us, so I ended up creating a nice private link to Datadog, which they offer for free, by the way, which is more than I can say for some other vendors. But then I found some outside parties, there wasn't a nice private link solution available to us, and yet, it was by far the largest volume. So, that's what kind of started me down this track is analyzing the NAT Gateway myself by looking at VPC flow logs. Like, it's shocking that there isn't a better way to find that traffic.Corey: It's worse than that because VPC flow logs tell you where the traffic is going and in what volumes, sure, on an IP address and port basis, but okay, now you have a Kubernetes cluster that spans two availability zones. Okay, great. What is actually passing through that? So, you have one big application that just seems awfully chatty, you have multiple workloads running on the thing. What's the expensive thing talking back and forth? The only way that you can reliably get the answer to that I found is to talk to people about what those workloads are actually doing, and failing that you're going code spelunking.Ben: Yep. You're exactly right about that. In our case, it ended up being apparent because we have a set of subnets where only one particular project runs. And when I saw the source IP, I could immediately figure that part out. But if it's a K8s cluster in the private subnets, yeah, how are you going to find it out? You're going to have to ask everybody that has workloads running there.Corey: And we're talking about in some cases, millions of dollars a month. Yeah, it starts to feel a little bit predatory as far as how it's priced and the amount of work you have to put in to track this stuff down. I've done this a handful of times myself, and it's always painful unless you discover something pretty early on, like, oh, it's talking to S3 because that's pretty obvious when you see that. It's, yeah, flip switch and this entire engagement just paid for itself a hundred times over. Now, let's see what else we can discover.That is always one of those fun moments because, first, customers are super grateful to learn that, oh, my God, I flipped that switch. And I'm saving a whole bunch of money. Because it starts with gratitude. “Thank you so much. This is great.” And it doesn't take a whole lot of time for that to alchemize into anger of, “Wait. You mean, I've been being ridden like a pony for this long and no one bothered to mention that if I click a button, this whole thing just goes away?”And when you mention this to your AWS account team, like, they're solicitous, but they either have to present as, “I didn't know that existed either,” which is not a good look, or, “Yeah, you caught us,” which is worse. There's no positive story on this. It just feels like a tax on not knowing trivia about AWS. I think that's what really winds me up about it so much.Ben: Yeah, I think you're right on about that as well. My misunderstanding about the NAT pricing was data processing is additive to data transfer. I expected when I replaced NAT Gateway with NAT instance, that I would be substituting data transfer costs for NAT Gateway costs, NAT Gateway data processing costs. But in fact, NAT Gateway incurs both data processing and data transfer. NAT instances only incur data transfer costs. And so, this is a big difference between the two solutions.Not only that, but if you're in the same region, if you're egressing out of your say us-east-1 region and talking to another hosted service also within us-east-1—never leaving the AWS network—you don't actually even incur data transfer costs. So, if you're using a NAT Gateway, you're paying data processing.Corey: To be clear you do, but it is cross-AZ in most cases billed at one penny egressing, and on the other side, that hosted service generally pays one penny ingressing as well. Don't feel bad about that one. That was extraordinarily unclear and the only reason I know the answer to that is that I got tired of getting stonewalled by people that later turned out didn't know the answer, so I ran a series of experiments designed explicitly to find this out.Ben: Right. As opposed to the five cents to nine cents that is data transfer to the internet. Which, add that to data processing on a NAT Gateway and you're paying between thirteen-and-a-half cents to nine-and-a-half cents for every gigabyte egressed. And this is a phenomenal cost. And at any kind of volume, if you're doing terabytes to petabytes, this becomes a significant portion of your bill. And this is why people hate the NAT Gateway so much.Corey: I am going to short-circuit an angry comment I can already see coming on this where people are going to say, “Well, yes. But it's a multi-petabyte scale. Nobody's paying on-demand retail price.” And they're right. Most people who are transmitting that kind of data, have a specific discount rate applied to what they're doing that varies depending upon usage and use case.Sure, great. But I'm more concerned with the people who are sitting around dreaming up ideas for a company where I want to wind up doing some sort of streaming service. I talked to one of those companies very early on in my tenure as a consultant around the billing piece and they wanted me to check their napkin math because they thought that at their numbers when they wound up scaling up, if their projections were right, that they were going to be spending $65,000 a minute, and what did they not understand? And the answer was, well, you didn't understand this other thing, so it's going to be more than that, but no, you're directionally correct. So, that idea that started off on a napkin, of course, they didn't build it on top of AWS; they went elsewhere.And last time I checked, they'd raised well over a quarter-billion dollars in funding. So, that's a business that AWS would love to have on a variety of different levels, but they're never going to even be considered because by the time someone is at scale, they either have built this somewhere else or they went broke trying.Ben: Yep, absolutely. And we might just make the point there that while you can get discounts on data transfer, you really can't—or it's very rare—to get discounts on data processing for the NAT Gateway. So, any kind of savings you can get on data transfer would apply to a NAT instance solution, you know, saving you four-and-a-half cents per gigabyte inbound and outbound over the NAT Gateway equivalent solution. So, you're paying a lot for the benefit of a fully-managed service there. Very robust, nicely engineered fully-managed service as we've already acknowledged, but an extremely expensive solution for what it is, which is really just a proxy in the end. It doesn't add any value to you.Corey: The only way to make that more expensive would be to route it through something like Splunk or whatnot. And Splunk does an awful lot for what they charge per gigabyte, but it just feels like it's rent-seeking in some of the worst ways possible. And what I love about this is that you've solved the problem in a way that is open-source, you have already released it in Terraform code. I think one of the first to-dos on this for someone is going to be, okay now also make it CloudFormation and also make it CDK so you can drop it in however you want.And anyone can use this. I think the biggest mistake people might make in glancing at this is well, I'm looking at the hourly charge for the NAT Gateways and that's 32-and-a-half bucks a month and the instances that you recommend are hundreds of dollars a month for the big network-optimized stuff. Yeah, if you care about the hourly rate of either of those two things, this is not for you. That is not the problem that it solves. If you're an independent learner annoyed about the $30 charge you got for a Managed NAT Gateway, don't do this. This will only add to your billing concerns.Where it really shines is once you're at, I would say probably about ten terabytes a month, give or take, in Managed NAT Gateway data processing is where it starts to consider this. The breakeven is around six or so but there is value to not having to think about things. Once you get to that level of spend, though it's worth devoting a little bit of infrastructure time to something like this.Ben: Yeah, that's effectively correct. The total cost of running the solution, like, all-in, there's eight Elastic IPs, four NAT Gateways, if you're—say you're four zones; could be less if you're in fewer zones—like, n NAT Gateways, n NAT instances, depending on how many zones you're in, and I think that's about it. And I said right in the documentation, if any of those baseline fees are a material number for your use case, then this is probably not the right solution. Because we're talking about saving thousands of dollars. Any of these small numbers for NAT Gateway hourly costs, NAT instance hourly costs, that shouldn't be a factor, basically.Corey: Yeah, it's like when I used to worry about costing my customers a few tens of dollars in Cost Explorer or CloudWatch or request fees against S3 for their Cost and Usage Reports. It's yeah, that does actually have a cost, there's no real way around it, but look at the savings they're realizing by going through that. Yeah, they're not going to come back and complaining about their five-figure consulting engagement costing an additional $25 in AWS charges and then lowering it by a third. So, there's definitely a difference as far as how those things tend to be perceived. But it's easy to miss the big stuff when chasing after the little stuff like that.This is part of the problem I have with an awful lot of cost tooling out there. They completely ignore cost components like this and focus only on the things that are easy to query via API, of, oh, we're going to cost-optimize your Kubernetes cluster when they think about compute and RAM. And, okay, that's great, but you're completely ignoring all the data transfer because there's still no great way to get at that programmatically. And it really is missing the forest for the trees.Ben: I think this is key to any cost reduction project or program that you're undertaking. When you look at a bill, look for the biggest spend items first and work your way down from there, just because of the impact you can have. And that's exactly what I did in this project. I saw that ‘EC2 Other' slash NAT Gateway was the big item and I started brainstorming ways that we could go about addressing that. And now I have my next targets in mind now that we've reduced this cost to effectively… nothing, extremely low compared to what it was, we have other new line items on our bill that we can start optimizing. But in any cost project, start with the big things.Corey: You have come a long way around to answer a question I get asked a lot, which is, “How do I become a cloud economist?” And my answer is, you don't. It's something that happens to you. And it appears to be happening to you, too. My favorite part about the solution that you built, incidentally, is that it is being released under the auspices of your employer, Chime Financial, which is immune to being acquired by Amazon just to kill this thing and shut it up.Because Amazon already has something shitty called Chime. They don't need to wind up launching something else or acquiring something else and ruining it because they have a Slack competitor of sorts called Amazon Chime. There's no way they could acquire you [unintelligible 00:27:45] going to get lost in the hallways.Ben: Well, I have confidence that Chime will be a good steward of the project. Chime's goal and mission as a company is to help everyone achieve financial peace of mind and we take that really seriously. We even apply it to ourselves and that was kind of the impetus behind developing this in the first place. You mentioned earlier we have Terraform support already and you're exactly right. I'd love to have CDK, CloudFormation, Pulumi supports, and other kinds of contributions are more than welcome from the community.So, if anybody feels like participating, if they see a feature that's missing, let's make this project the best that it can be. I suspect we can save many companies, hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. And this really feels like the right direction to go in.Corey: This is easily a multi-billion dollar savings opportunity, globally.Ben: That's huge. I would be flabbergasted if that was the outcome of this.Corey: The hardest part is reaching these people and getting them on board with the idea of handling this. And again, I think there's a lot of opportunity for the project to evolve in the sense of different settings depending upon risk tolerance. I can easily see a scenario where in the event of a disruption to the NAT instance, it fails over to the Managed NAT Gateway, but fail back becomes manual so you don't have a flapping route table back and forth or a [hold 00:29:05] downtime or something like that. Because again, in that scenario, the failure mode is just well, you're paying four-and-a-half cents per gigabyte for a while until you wind up figuring out what's going on as opposed to the failure mode of you wind up disrupting connections on an ongoing basis, and for some workloads, that's not tenable. This is absolutely, for the common case, the right path forward.Ben: Absolutely. I think it's an enterprise-grade solution and the more knobs and dials that we add to tweak to make it more robust or adaptable to different kinds of use cases, the best outcome here would actually be that the entire solution becomes irrelevant because AWS fixes the NAT Gateway pricing. If that happens, I will consider the project a great success.Corey: I will be doing backflips like you wouldn't believe. I would sing their praises day in, day out. I'm not saying reduce it to nothing, even. I'm not saying it adds no value. I would change the way that it's priced because honestly, the fact that I can run an EC2 instance and be charged $0 on a per-gigabyte basis, yeah, I would pay a premium on an hourly charge based upon traffic volumes, but don't meter per gigabyte. That's where it breaks down.Ben: Absolutely. And why is it additive to data transfer, also? Like, I remember first starting to use VPC when it was launched and reading about the NAT instance requirement and thinking, “Wait a minute. I have to pay this extra management and hourly fee just so my private hosts could reach the internet? That seems kind of janky.”And Amazon established a norm here because Azure and GCP both have their own equivalent of this now. This is a business choice. This is not a technical choice. They could just run this under the hood and not charge anybody for it or build in the cost and it wouldn't be this thing we have to think about.Corey: I almost hate to say it, but Oracle Cloud does, for free.Ben: Do they?Corey: It can be done. This is a business decision. It is not a technical capability issue where well, it does incur cost to run these things. I understand that and I'm not asking for things for free. I very rarely say that this is overpriced when I'm talking about AWS billing issues. I'm talking about it being unpredictable, I'm talking about it being impossible to see in advance, but the fact that it costs too much money is rarely my complaint. In this case, it costs too much money. Make it cost less.Ben: If I'm not mistaken. GCPs equivalent solution is the exact same price. It's also four-and-a-half cents per gigabyte. So, that shows you that there's business games being played here. Like, Amazon could get ahead and do right by the customer by dropping this to a much more reasonable price.Corey: I really want to thank you both for taking the time to speak with me and building this glorious, glorious thing. Where can we find it? And where can we find you?Ben: alternat.cloud is going to be the place to visit. It's on Chime's GitHub, which will be released by the time this podcast comes out. As for me, if you want to connect, I'm on Twitter. @iamthewhaley is my handle. And of course, I'm on LinkedIn.Corey: Links to all of that will be in the podcast notes. Ben, thank you so much for your time and your hard work.Ben: This was fun. Thanks, Corey.Corey: Ben Whaley, staff software engineer at Chime Financial, and AWS Community Hero. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry rant of a comment that I will charge you not only four-and-a-half cents per word to read, but four-and-a-half cents to reply because I am experimenting myself with being a rent-seeking schmuck.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Click here to join the member exclusive portion of my show: https://utm.io/ueSEjRepublican governors make Democrats own their own positions on illegal immigration; the railroad unions hold America's economy hostage in the middle of an inflationary spiral; and Nancy Pelosi cracks wise about abortion. - - - DailyWire+:Get 40% OFF Daily Wire merch during our Inflation Reduction Event, while supplies last: https://bit.ly/3Dm11N5 Become a DailyWire+ member today to access movies, shows, and more: https://utm.io/ueMfc  - - - Today's Sponsors:Protect your online privacy with ExpressVPN. Get 3 Months FREE! EXPRESSVPN.com/BEN You may be entitled to a Payroll Tax refund through Innovation Refunds. Visit GetRefunds.com for more information!Masterworks's revolutionary tech platform lets you invest in fine art via shares. Go to Masterworks.com/ben for VIP access!Policygenius is your one-stop shop to find the insurance you need at the right price. Go to policygenius.com/SHAPIRO  to get your free life insurance quotes and see how much you could save. Stop funding woke corporate agendas. Switch to PureTalk instead. Get one month FREE when you enter promo code SHAPIRO at puretalk.com- - -Socials:Follow on Twitter: https://bit.ly/3cXUn53 Follow on Instagram: https://bit.ly/3QtuibJ Follow on Facebook: https://bit.ly/3TTirqd Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/3RPyBiB  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Click here to join the member exclusive portion of my show: https://utm.io/ueSEjThe stock market continues its slide as Joe Biden's team touts his economic prowess; Kamala Harris says we need diversity in space; and American helicopters are reportedly evacuating our embassy in yet another country. Get the brand new Johnny the Walrus Plushie here: https://bit.ly/3ATROdb   —Today's Sponsors:With thousands of satisfied customers and an A+ rating with the Better Business Bureau, Birch Gold can help you protect your savings. No-Cost, No-Obligation FREE Information Kit Text BEN to 98-98-98Protect your online privacy with ExpressVPN. Get 3 Months FREE! EXPRESSVPN.com/BEN You may be entitled to a Payroll Tax refund through Innovation Refunds. Visit GetRefunds.com for more information!Download the FREE Upside app with promo code 'SHAPIRO' and earn 25¢ or more CASH BACK on your first tank.ZipRecruiter makes hiring so much easier because they do the work for you. Try it for FREE at ziprecruiter.com/dailywire. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Click here to join the member exclusive portion of my show: https://utm.io/ueSEjAuthor and commentator Sam Harris says he's all in favor of silencing stories to stop Trump; Brian Stelter is finished at CNN; and a judge rules that part of the affidavit in the Trump FBI raid can finally be released. Become a DailyWire+ member to watch Ben Shapiro's Book Club: https://utm.io/ueMfc   —Today's Sponsors:Protect your online privacy with ExpressVPN. Get 3 Months FREE! EXPRESSVPN.com/BEN You may be eligible for a Payroll Tax Refund. Go to GetRefunds.com to learn more.Policygenius is your one-stop shop to find the insurance you need at the right price. Go to policygenius.com/SHAPIRO  to get your free life insurance quotes and see how much you could save. Stop funding woke corporate agendas. Switch to PureTalk instead. Get one month FREE when you enter promo code SHAPIRO at puretalk.comOwn a gun? Join the USCCA today for the peace of mind trusted by over 600,000 Americans. Get a FREE Concealed Carry and Family Defense Guide + a chance to win $1,000 toward a firearm purchase.Text BEN to 87222ZipRecruiter makes hiring so much easier because they do the work for you. Try it For FREE www.ZipRecruiter.com/dailywire  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

WDAV and the Fair Play Music Equity Initiative continue the second season of NoteWorthy virtual concerts with R&B artist Nia J joined by flutist Jill O’Neill and violist Ben Geller. We speak to the trio about how well they bonded as a group, and how the addition of the classical instruments helped “breathe some life back” into the singer-songwriter’s music. Nia J Ben Geller Jill O'Neill Transcript Frank Dominguez : This is Frank Dominguez for WDAV’s Piedmont Arts. On Wednesday, August 24 at 7:30 PM, WDAV continues its second season of NoteWorthy virtual concerts presented in partnership with the FAIR PLAY Music Equity Initiative. The series brings together gifted Black and brown artists from the Charlotte music scene with classical musicians for some genre blending and community building. This time, we’re teaming R&B singer-songwriter Nia J with flutist Jill O’Neill and violist Ben Geller. The trio joins me now via Zoom. Thanks, everyone! Jill O’Neill : Thanks for having us. Nia J : Yeah, excited to be here. Frank : Nia, R&B is a category of music that's really as broad and varied as classical music in terms of its range of sounds and artists. So who are some of the musicians, from R&B or otherwise, who have had an influence on your music? Nia : I would say Jhené Aiko comes to mind. I really like her harmonies and the really melodic tunes that she is able to achieve. And just that it’s really peaceful. I like for my music to be tranquil and have that really peaceful state. I really like Daniel Caesar as well. Same thing as far as harmonies - I really like the way that he writes. Both completely different artists, but those are two that come to mind when I think of R&B artists that inspire me. Frank : And if I were asking you to describe what R&B means to you, how would you talk about that? Nia : I don’t know, it's kind of limitless right now! There's no sound that is unique to it at the moment, everyone's taking their own direction with it. I think it gets back to the lyrics. The lyrics are really soulful, I think the message is usually pretty powerful. And I like the contemporary stance that a lot of artists are taking, where we're fusing different genres into it. Frank : Jill, you are a flute professor at Winthrop University and you teach Music Appreciation, but in addition, your resume also includes the Charlotte School of Rock and courses in the History of Rock and Roll. How did you come by this eclectic streak? Jill : It actually doesn't seem eclectic to me, I don't know why it does to everybody else. (Laughs) You know, I grew up listening to heavy metal and punk and being a kid in the 80’s. Yes, I play a very… solit(ary), shall I say, girly instrument. Most of my teachers were men when I was a kid. (The flute) is seen as that frilly, fluffy, pretty, very vocal instrument, but that actually is very unlike me as a human and as a musician. When I have to play flute, I really have to bring myself into Nia’s way of thinking. I really have to calm myself down and try to contain it. Because that’s not the kind of music I really listen to and the two bands that I played with, it’s not pretty flute music. It’s kind of heavy, loud, grinding… and that’s just the kind of person I am. So, when I’m playing drums, I actually sometimes feel more like myself. But the flute is my life. I started playing piccolo when I was six, so of course, everybody insisted that I gravitate towards the flute as well, so I played both. And alto flute and bass flute. But that’s just one very small part of me. I think as a teacher, that’s what I bring to the table, because I make sure that all my students can do everything. I always say, “the more you do, the more marketable you are, so don’t pigeonhole yourself!” Frank : Great point. Ben, most of WDAV’s listeners are used to seeing you in evening wear at concerts by the Charlotte Symphony Orchestra. What is the appeal for you personally about stepping outside your usual circle and collaborating with Nia J on this project? Ben Geller : Well, it's… that pigeonholing that Jill was talking about, that’s more of my life. I think when I was younger, I had broader interests, and as I got older, I wanted to focus more and more, and eventually orchestral viola kind of took over my life. Not to say I don't love it, but I miss doing more out of the box stuff. And playing in the orchestra does get you a decent amount of variety. We play all kinds of classical music and modern stuff. But being a directly contributing partner to a project like this was… I mean, I love that. Nia’s got such a unique voice, a beautiful voice, and great songwriting. And working with another colleague in Jill, who brings this whole varied background… this was so much fun. I wish we could do this all of the time, always. Jill : Hear that, Nia? (Laughs) Hint! Ben : Stand by. Nia : Taking the hint. Frank : That's really great to see the obvious bond that has formed between the three of you. Nia, I'm interested in your creative process for writing songs. Are you thinking about the audience and their expectations of you, or are you perhaps more driven by your own experiences and emotions? How does it work for you? Nia : I think anytime I try to start with the audience, it just doesn't work. So usually, it's best if I think about how I'm feeling and experiences that I'd like to share, and usually I get lucky and those experiences can be related to by others and people who are listening. So I just try to be authentic in why I'm writing and taking from my experiences and then just hoping that people will connect. Frank : Jill, I have another question for you. And given that you demonstrated you're not the stereotypical flutist that some people might have in mind, how did you go about working with Nia? What form did the collaboration take? Jill : You know what, it was really easy. She had sent Ben and I her music quite some time before we got together, and Ben and I just kind of had - immediately, I mean, we’ve known each other and played with each other for a long time - we just had a sense of what each song needed from us. So that's why I ended up just grabbing a whole bunch of different instruments before I left because we had no idea what was going to come of rehearsals. It was a neat kind of hodgepodge of listen to a tune, grab a different instrument, try something… substitute one instrument for another, until we just found it. I don't think that's a secret. I think that's the way most people write music. So it was fun for us to have that beautiful base of stuff that she had already written. It made our jobs really easy, don’t you think, Ben? (Laughs) It really wasn’t taxing for us. We did have to decide a few times, and Nia was really prominent in the conversations, about how much of the music do we keep and add us on to, versus trying to have us recreate that. It wasn’t an easy task when Ben and I felt like, “Oh my God, we have to play flute and viola. How are we going to make her music sound (right)?” That was really scary. Until she had this look on her face, like “No, you don’t have to do that. You can do anything you want.” And as soon as we realized that, it was on. I mean, we just kind of went crazy. And when Ben got out his mandolin, Nia just looked at me like, “Yeah. This is going. This is what we want.” Frank : Ben, how about you? What was the transition to playing music in this sort of milieu? Easy, or difficult, or how did you manage it? Ben : You know, viola is a backup instrument. We don’t… it's not always “spotlight” for us, for sure. So thinking about it in this vein was a little bit (of) where I live, in how to best support a good clear melody. And viola didn’t always make sense, so I happen to have this wonderful mandolin that I love and don't play enough of, and it seemed to fit on a few of Nia’s songs, so we kept using it. Frank : One definite message I'm getting from this is that there's a lot more to the contemporary classical musician than first meets the eye and than I think the average audience member might realize, not only in terms of your training and background but your interests and the ways you express yourself. Nia, when you were getting ready for this NoteWorthy concert, did you have any role in playing… in terms of choosing the instruments or the musicians who would be performing with you? Nia : I wasn't really picky. They asked what types of instruments (I’d like), and I’m like, “I don’t know!” It’s been a while since I’ve worked with classical musicians. I did choir, and we always performed alongside classical musicians, but that was in high school, so I’m like, “Whatever you think sounds like it will fit with my music.” I was randomly paired with Jill and Ben, and it was great because Jill… the first day that we rehearsed, she brought like fifty different instruments. So it was nice that we could experiment, as they were saying, and just play around to see what worked and what didn’t. I had no idea what route I would take with it. Frank : I’m going to give you the last word, Nia, and ask you what stands out for you as the most memorable part of working with Jill and Ben specifically as classically trained musicians? What did that combination bring to the songs you had written and have been performing? Nia : I think they definitely helped breathe some life back into the music. After performing the same songs over and over again, sometimes you lose touch with them. So working with Jill and Ben helped me reconnect with them in a way that I hope the audience will see when they watch the performance. And just who they are as people, too. I’ve grown really fond of you guys, and getting to work together was awesome. I’m just really grateful to have gotten to meet both of them. Frank : My guests have been R&B singer-songwriter Nia J and flutist Jill O’Neill, as well as violist Ben Geller. On Wednesday, August 24th at 7:30 PM, you can hear them perform when WDAV continues the second season of NoteWorthy virtual concerts, presented in partnership with the FAIR PLAY Music Equity Initiative. The series brings together gifted Black and brown artists from the Charlotte music scene with classical musicians for some genre blending and community building music. And you can watch WDAV’s YouTube channel to catch the video or WDAV’s Facebook page. You can also get more information about the artists and the series from noteworthyclassical.org. Thank you, everyone, for speaking with me. Jill : Thanks, Frank. Ben : Thanks for having us, Frank. Nia : Thanks! Frank : For WDAV’s Piedmont Arts, I’m Frank Dominguez.

In this conversation, Semon Rezchikov and I talk about what other disciplines can learn from mathematics, creating and cultivating collaborations, working at different levels of abstraction, and a lot more! Semon is currently a postdoc in mathematics at Harvard where he specializes in symplectic geometry. He has an amazing ability to go up and down the ladder of abstraction — doing extremely hardcore math while at the same time paying attention to *how* he's doing that work and the broader institutional structures that it fits into. Semon is worth listening to both because he has great ideas and also because in many ways, academic mathematics feels like it stands apart from other disciplines. Not just because of the subject matter, but because it has managed to buck many of the trend that other fields experienced over the course of the 20th century.   Links Semon's Website Transcript [00:00:35]  Welcome back to idea machines. Before we get started, I'm going to do two quick pieces of housekeeping. I realized that my updates have been a little bit erratic. My excuse is that I've been working on my own idea machine. That being said, I've gotten enough feedback that people do get something out of the podcast and I have enough fun doing it that I am going to try to commit to a once a month cadence probably releasing on the pressure second [00:01:35] day of. Second thing is that I want to start doing more experiments with the podcast. I don't hear enough experiments in podcasting and I'm in this sort of unique position where I don't really care about revenue or listener numbers. I don't actually look at them. And, and I don't make any revenue. So with that in mind, I, I want to try some stuff. The podcast will continue to be a long form conversation that that won't change. But I do want to figure out if there are ways to. Maybe something like fake commercials for lesser known scientific concepts, micro interviews. If you have ideas, send them to me in an email or on Twitter. So that's, that's the housekeeping. This conversation, Simon Rezchikov and I talk about what other disciplines can learn from mathematics, creating and cultivating collaborations, working at different levels of abstraction. is currently a post-doc in mathematics at Harvard, where he specializes in symplectic geometry. He has an amazing ability to go up, go up and down the ladder of [00:02:35] abstraction, doing extremely hardcore math while at the same time, paying attention to how he's doing the work and the broader institutional structures that affect. He's worth listening to both because he has great ideas. And also because in many ways, academic mathematics feels like it stands apart from other disciplines, not just because of the subject matter, but because it has managed to buck many of the trends that other fields experience of the course of the 20th century. So it's worth sort of poking at why that happened and perhaps. How other fields might be able to replicate some of the healthier parts of mathematics. So without further ado, here's our conversation. [00:03:16] Ben:  I want to start with the notion that I think most people have that the way that mathematicians go about a working on things and be thinking about how to work on things like what to work on is that you like go in a room and you maybe read some papers and you think really hard, and then [00:03:35] you find some problem. And then. You like spend some number of years on a Blackboard and then you come up with a solution. But apparently that's not that that's not how it actually works.  [00:03:49] Semon: Okay. I don't think that's a complete description. So definitely people spend time in front of blackboards. I think the length of a typical length of a project can definitely. Vary between disciplines I think yeah, within mathematics. So I think, but also on the other hand, it's also hard to define what is a single project. As you know, a single, there might be kind of a single intellectual art through which several papers are produced, where you don't even quite know the end of the project when you start. But, and so, you know, two, a two years on a single project is probably kind of a significant project for many people. Because that's just a lot of time, but it's true that, you know, even a graduate student might spend several years working on at least a single kind of larger set of ideas because the community does have enough [00:04:35] sort of stability to allow for that. But it's not entirely true that people work alone. I think these days mathematics is pretty collaborative people. Yeah. If you're mad, you know, in the end, you're kind of, you probably are making a lot of stuff up and sort of doing self consistency checks through this sort of formal algebra or this sort of, kind of technique of proof. It makes you make sure helps you stay sane. But when other people kind of can think about the same objects from a different perspective, usually things go faster and at the very least it helps you kind of decide which parts of the mathematical ideas are really. So often, you know, people work with collaborators or there might be a community of people who were kind of talking about some set of ideas and they may be, there may be misunderstanding one another, a little bit. And then they're kind of biting off pieces of a sort of, kind of collective and collectively imagined [00:05:35] mathematical construct to kind of make real on their own or with smaller groups of people. So all of those  [00:05:40] Ben: happen. And how did these collaborations. Like come about and  [00:05:44] Semon: how do you structure them? That's great. That's a great question. So I think this is probably several different models. I can tell you some that I've run across. So during, so sometimes there are conferences and then people might start. So recently I was at a conference and I went out to dinner with a few people, and then after dinner, we were. We were talking about like some of our recent work and trying to understand like where it might go up. And somebody, you know, I was like, oh, you know, I didn't get to ask you any questions. You know, here's something I've always wanted to know from you. And they were like, oh yes, this is how this should work. But here's something I don't know. And then somehow we realized that you know, there was some reasonable kind of very reasonable guests as to what the answer is. Something that needed to be known would be so I guess now we're writing a paper together, [00:06:35] hopefully that guess works. So that's one way to start a collaboration. You go out to a fancy dinner and afterwards you're like, Hey, I guess we maybe solved the problem. There is other ways sometimes people just to two people might realize they're confused about the same thing. So. Collaboration like that kind of from somewhat different types of technical backgrounds, we both realized we're confused about a related set of ideas. We were like, okay, well I guess maybe we can try to get unconfused together.  [00:07:00] Ben: Can I, can I interject, like, I think it's actually realizing that you are confused about the same problem as someone who's coming at it from a different direction is actually hard in and of itself. Yes. Yes. How, how does, like, what is actually the process of realizing that the problem that both of you have is in fact the same problem? Well,  [00:07:28] Semon: you probably have to understand a little bit about the other person's work and you probably have to in some [00:07:35] way, have some basal amount of rapport with the other person first, because. You know, you're not going to get yourself to like, engage with this different foreign language, unless you kind of like liked them to some degree. So that's actually a crucial thing. It's like the personal aspect of it. Then you know it because maybe you'll you kind of like this person's work and maybe you like the way they go about it. That's interesting to you. Then you can try to, you know, talk about what you've recently been thinking about. And then, you know, the same mathematical object might pop up. And then that, that sort of, that might be you know, I'm not any kind of truly any mathematical object worth studying, usually has incarnations and different formal languages, which are related to one another through kind of highly non-obvious transformation. So for example, everyone knows about a circle, but a circle. Could you could think of that as like the set of points of distance one, you could think of it as some sort of close, not right. You can, you can sort of, there are many different concrete [00:08:35] intuitions through which you can grapple with this sort of object. And usually if that's true, that sort of tells you that it's an interesting object. If a mathematical object only exists because of a technicality, it maybe isn't so interesting. So that's why it's maybe possible to notice that the same object occurs in two different peoples. Misunderstandings. [00:08:53] Ben: Yeah. But I think the cruxy thing for me is that it is at the end of the day, it's like a really human process. There's not a way of sort of colliding what both of, you know, without hanging out.  [00:09:11] Semon: So people. And people can try to communicate what they know through texts. So people write reviews on. I gave a few talks recently in a number of people have asked me to write like a review of this subject. There's no subject, just to be clear. I kind of gave a talk with the kind of impression that there is a subject to be worked on, but nobody's really done any work on it that you're [00:09:35] meeting this subject into existence. That's definitely part of your job as an academic. But you know, then that's one way of explaining, I think that, that can be a little bit less, like one-on-one less personal. People also write these a different version of that is people write kind of problems. People write problem statements. Like I think these are interesting problems and then our goal. So there's all these famous, like lists of conjectures, which you know, in any given discipline. Usually when people decide, oh, there's an interesting mathematical area to be developed. At some point they have a conference and somebody writes down like a list of problems and the, the conditions for these problems are that they should kind of matter. They should help you understand like the larger structure of this area and that they should, the problems to solve should be precise enough that you don't need some very complex motivation to be able to engage with them. So that's part of, I think the, the trick in mathematics. You know, different people have very different like internal understandings of something, but you reduce the statements or [00:10:35] the problems or the theorems, ideally down to something that you don't need a huge superstructure in order to engage with, because then people will different, like techniques or perspective can engage with the same thing. So that can makes it that depersonalizes it. Yeah. That's true. Kind of a deliberate, I think tactic.  And  [00:10:51] Ben: do you think that mathematics is. Unique in its ability to sort of have those both like clean problem statements. And, and I think like I get the sense that it's, it's almost like it's higher status in mathematics to just declare problems. Whereas it feels like in other discipline, One, there are, the problems are much more implicit. Like anybody in, in some specialization has, has an idea of what they are, but they're very rarely made lightly explicit. And then to pointing out [00:11:35] problems is fairly low status, unless you simultaneously point out the problem and then solve it. Do you think there's like a cultural difference?  [00:11:45] Semon: Potentially. So I think, yeah, anyone can make conjectures in that, but usually if you make a conjecture, it's either wrong or on. Interesting. It's a true for resulting proof is boring. So to get anyone to listen to you, when you make problem, you state problems, you need to, you need to have a certain amount of kind of controllers. Simultaneously, you know, maybe if you have a cell while you're in, it's clear. Okay. You don't understand the salary. You don't understand what's in it. It's a blob that does magic. Okay. The problem is understand the magic Nath and you don't, you can't see the thing. Right? So in some sense, defining problems as part of. That's very similar to somebody showing somebody look, here's a protein. Oh, interesting. That's a very [00:12:35] similar process. And I do think that pointing out, like, look, here's a protein that we don't understand. And you didn't know about the existence of this protein. That can be a fairly high status work say in biology. So that might be a better analogy. Yeah.  [00:12:46] Ben: Yeah, no, I like that a lot that math does not have, you could almost say like the substrate, that the context of reality.  [00:12:56] Semon: I mean it's there, right? It's just that you have to know what to look for in order to see it. So, right. Like, you know, number theorists, love examples like this, you know, like, oh, everybody knows about the natural numbers, but you know, they just love pointing out. Like, here's this crazy pattern. You would never think of this pattern because you don't have this kind of overarching perspective on it that they have developed over a few thousand years.  [00:13:22] Ben: It's not my thing really been around for a few thousand years. It's  pretty  [00:13:25] Semon: old. Yeah.  [00:13:27] Ben: W w what would you,  [00:13:30] Semon: this is just curiosity. What, what would  [00:13:32] Ben: you call the first [00:13:35] instance of number theory in history?  [00:13:38] Semon: I'm not really sure. I don't think I'm not a historian in that sense. I mean, certainly, you know, the Bell's equation is related to like all kinds of problems in. Like I think grease or something. I don't exactly know when the Chinese, when the Chinese remainder theorem is from, like, I I'm, I'm just not history. Unfortunately, I'm just curious. But I do think the basic server very old, I mean, you know, it was squared of two is a very old thing. Right. That's the sort of irrationality, the skirt of two is really ancient. So it must predate that by quite a bit. Cause that's a very sophisticated question.  [00:14:13] Ben: Okay. Yeah. So then going, going back to collaborations I think it's a surprising thing that you've told me about in the past is that collaborations in mathematics are like, people have different specializations in the sense that the collaborations are not just completely flat of like everybody just sort of [00:14:35] stabbing at a place. And that you you've actually had pretty interesting collaborations structures.  [00:14:43] Semon: Yeah. So I think different people are naturally drawn to different kinds of thinking. And so they naturally develop different sort of thinking styles. So some people, for example, are very interested in someone had there's different kinds. Parts of mathematics, like analysis or algebra or you know, technical questions and typology or whatnot. And some people just happen to know certain techniques better than others. That's one access that you could sort of classify people on a different access is about question about sort of tasting what they think is important. So some people. Wants to have a very kind of rich, formal structure. Other people want to have a very concrete, intuitive structure, and those are very different, those lead to very different questions. Which, you know, that's sort of something I've had to navigate with recently where there's a group of people who are sort of mathematical physicists and they kind of like a very rich, formal structure. And there's other [00:15:35] people who do geometric analysis. Kind of geometric objects defined by partial differential equations and they want something very concrete. And there are relations between questions about areas. So I've spent some time trying to think about how one can kind of profitably move from one to the other. But did Nash there's that, that sort of forces you to navigate a certain kind of tension. So. Maybe you have different access is whether people like these are the here's one, there's the frogs and birds.com. And you know, this, this is a real, this is a very strong phenomenon and mathematics is this, this  [00:16:09] Ben: that was originally dice. [00:16:11] Semon: And maybe I'm not sure, but it's certainly a very helpful framework. I think some people really want to take a single problem and like kind of stab at it. Other people want to see the big picture and how everything fits. And both of these types of work can be useful or useless depending on sort of the flavor of the, sort of the way the person approached it. So, you know, often, you know, often collaborations have like one person who's obviously more kind of hot and kind [00:16:35] of more birdlike and more frog like, and that can be a very productive.  [00:16:40] Ben: And how do you make your, like let's, let's let's date? Let's, let's frog that a little bit. And so like, what are the situations. W what, what are the, both like the success and failure modes of birds in the success and failure modes of  [00:16:54] Semon: frocks. Great, good. This is, I feel like this is somehow like very clearly known. So the success so-so what frogs fail at is they can get stuck on a technical problem, which does not matter to the larger aspect of the larger university. Hmm. And so in the long run, they can spend a lot of work resolving technical issues which are then like, kind of, not really looked out there because in the end they, you know, maybe the, you know, they didn't matter for kind of like progress. Yeah. What they can do is they can discover something that is not obvious from any larger superstructure. Right. So they can sort of by directly [00:17:35] engaging with kind of the lower level details of mathematical reality. So. They can show the birds something they could never see and simultaneously they often have a lot of technical capacity. And so they can, you know, there might be some hard problem, which you know, no one, a large perspective can help you solve. You just have to actually understand that problem. And then they can remove the problem. So that can learn to lead opened kind of to a new new world. That's the frog. The birds have an opposite success and failure. Remember. The success mode is that they point out, oh, here's something that you could have done. That was easier. Here's kind of a missing piece in the puzzle. And then it turns out that's the easy way to go. So you know, get mathematical physicists, have a history of kind of being birds in this way, where they kind of point out, well, you guys were studying this equation to kind of study the typology of format of holes instead of, and you should study, set a different equation, which is much easier. And we'll tell you all this. And the reason for this as sort of like incomprehensible to mathematician, but the math has made it much easier to solve a lot of problems. That's kind of the [00:18:35] ultimate bird success. The failure mode is that you spend a lot of time piecing things together, but then you only work on problems, which are, which makes sense from this huge perspective. And those problems ended up being uninteresting to everyone else. And you end up being trapped by this. Kind of elaborate complexity of your own perspective. So you start working on kind of like an abstruse kind of, you know, you're like computing some quantity, which is interesting only if you understand this vast picture and it doesn't really shed light on anything. That's simple for people to understand. That's usually not good. If you develop a new formal world that sort of in, maybe it's fine to work on it on this. But it is in the, and partially validated by solving problems that other people could ask without any of this larger understanding. That's  [00:19:26] Ben: yeah. Like you can actually be too,  [00:19:31] Semon: too general, almost. That's very often a [00:19:35] problem. So so you know, one thing that one bit of mathematics that is popular among non mathematicians for interesting reasons is category. So I know a lot of computer scientists are sort of familiar with category theory because it's been applied to programming languages fairly successfully. Now category theory is extremely general. It is, you know, the, the mathematical kind of joke description of it is that it's abstract nonsense. So, so that's a technical term approved by abstract now. this is a tech, there are a number of interesting technical terms like morally true, and the proof by abstract nonsense and so forth, which have, I think interesting connotation so approved by abstract nonsense is you have some concrete question where you realize, and you want to answer it and you realize that its answer follows from the categorical structure of the question. Like if you fit this question into the [00:20:35] framework of categories, There's a very general theorem and category theory, which implies what you wanted, what that tells you in some sense of that. Your question was not interesting because it had no, you know, it really wasn't a question about the concrete objects you were looking at at all. It was a question about like relations between relations, right? So, you know, the. S. So, you know, there's this other phrase that the purpose of category theory is to make the trivial trivially trivial. And this is very useful because it lets you skip over the boring stuff and the boring stuff could actually, you get to get stuck on it for a very long time and it can have a lot of content. But so category theory in mathematics is on one hand, extremely useful. And on the other hand can be viewed with a certain amount of. Because people can start working on kind of these very upstream, categorical constructions some more complicated than the ones that appear in programming languages, which, you know, most mathematicians can't make heads or tails of what they're about. And some of those [00:21:35] are kind of not necessarily developed in a way to be made relevant to the rest of mathematics and that there is a sort of natural tension that anyone is interested in. Category theory has to navigate. How far do you go into the land of abstract nonsense? So, you know, even as the mathematicians are kind of viewed as like the abstract nonsense people by most people, even within mathematics is hierarchy continues and is it's factal yeah. The hierarchy is preserved for the same reasons.  [00:22:02] Ben: And actually that actually goes back to I think you mentioned when you're, you're talking about the failure mode of frogs, which is that they can end up working on things that. Ultimately don't matter. And I want to like poke how you think about what things matter and don't matter in mathematics because sort of, I think about this a lot in the context of like technologies, like people, people always think like technology needs to be useful for, to like some, [00:22:35] but like some end consumer. But then. You often need to do things to me. Like you need to do some useless things in order to eventually build a useful thing. And then, but then mathematics, like the concept of usefulness on the like like I'm going to use this for a thing in the world. Not, not the metric, like yeah. But there's still things that like matter and don't matter. So  [00:23:01] Semon: how do you think about, so it's definitely not true that people decide which mathematics matters based on its applicability to real-world concerns. That might be true and applied with medics actually, which has maybe in as much as there's a distinction that it's sort of a distinction of value and judgment. But in mathematics, So I said that mathematical object is more real in some sense, when it can be viewed from many perspectives. So there are certain objects which therefore many different kinds of mathematicians can grapple with. And there are certain questions which kind of any mathematician can [00:23:35] understand. And that is one of the ways in which people decide that mathematics is important. So for example you might ask a question. Okay. So this might be some, so here's a, here's a question which I would think is important. I'm just going to say something technical, but I can kind of explain what it means, you know, understand sort of statements about the representation theory of of the fundamental group of a surface. Okay. So what that means is if you have any loop in a surface, then you can assign to that loop a matrix. Okay. And then if you kind of compose. And then the condition of that for this assignment is that if you compose the loops, but kind of going from one after the other, then you assign that composed loop the product of his two matrices. Okay. And if you deformed the loop then the matrix you assign is preserved under the defamation. Okay. So that's the, that's the sort of question was, can you classify these things? Can you understand them? They turn out to be kind of relevant to differential equations, to partial, to of all different kinds to physics, to kind of typology. Hasn't got a very bad. So, you know, progress on that is kind of [00:24:35] obviously important because it turns out to be connected to other questions and all of mathematics. So that's one perspective, kind of the, the, the simplest, like the questions that any mathematician would kind of find interesting. Cause they can understand them and they're like, oh yeah, that's nice. Those are that's one way of measuring importance and a different one is about the. Sort of the narrative, you know, mathematics method, you just spend a lot of time tying making sure that kind of all the mathematics is kind of in practice connected with the rest of it. And there are all these big narratives which tie it together. So those narratives often tell us a lot of things that are go far beyond what we can prove. So we know a lot more about numbers. Than we can prove. In some sense, we have much more evidence. So, you know, one, maybe one thing is the Remont hypothesis is important and we kind of have much more evidence for the Riemann hypothesis in some sense, then we have for [00:25:35] any physical belief about our world. And it's not just important to, because it's kind of some basic question it's important because it's some Keystone in some much larger narrative about the statistics of many kinds of number, theoretic questions. So You know, there are other more questions which might sound abstruse and are not so simple to state, but because they kind of would clarify a piece of this larger conceptual understanding when all these conjectures and heuristics and so forth. Yeah. You know, like making it heuristic rigorous can be very valuable and that heuristic might be to that statement might be extremely complex. But it means that this larger understanding of how you generate all the heuristics is correct or not correct. And that is important. There's also a surprise. So people might have questions about which they expect the answer to be something. And then you show it's not that that's important. So if there are strong expectations, it's not that easy to form expectations in mathematics, but,  [00:26:30] Ben: but as you were saying that there, there are these like narrative arcs. [00:26:35] Do something that is both like correct and defies the narrative. [00:26:39] Semon: That's an interesting, that means there must be something there, or maybe not. Maybe it's only because there was some technicality and like, you know, the technicality is not kind of, it doesn't enlighten the rest of the narrative. So that's some sort of balance which people argue about and is determined in the end, I guess, socially, but also through the production of, I don't know, results and theorems and expect mathematical experiments and so forth. [00:27:04] Ben: And to, to, so I'm gonna, I'm going to yank us back to, to the, the, the collaborations. And just like in the past, we've talked about like how you actually do like program management around these collaborations. And it felt like I got the impression that mathematics actually has like pretty good standards for how this is. What  [00:27:29] Semon: do you mean by program management? Meaning  [00:27:31] Ben: like like you're like, like how, like [00:27:35] how you were basically just managing your collaborators, like you you're talking about like how, what was it? It was like, you need to like wrangle people for, for. I, or yeah, or like, yeah. So you've got like, just like how to manage your collaborators. [00:27:51] Semon: So I guess  [00:27:54] Ben: we were developing like a theory on that.  [00:27:56] Semon: Yeah, I think a little bit. So on one hand, I guess in mathematics and math, every, so in the sciences, there's usually somebody with money and then they kind of determined what has. Is  [00:28:08] Ben: this, is this a funder or is this like  [00:28:10] Semon: a, I would think the guy pie is huge. So yeah, in the sciences, maybe the model is what like funding agencies, PI is and and lab members, right. And often the PIs are setting the direction. The grant people are kind of essentially putting constraints on what's possible. So they steer the direction some much larger way, but they kind of can't really see the ground to all right. And [00:28:35] then a bunch of creative work happens at lowest level. But you know, you're very constrained by what's possible in your lab in mathematics. There aren't really labs, right. You know, there are certainly places where people know more. Other places about certain parts of mathematics. So it's hard to do certain kinds of mathematics without kind of people around you who know something because most of the mathematics isn't written down. And  [00:28:58] Ben: that, that statement is shocking in and of itself.  [00:29:01] Semon: The second is also similar with the sciences, right? Like most things people know about the natural world aren't really that well-documented that's why it pays to be sometimes lower down the chain. You might find something that isn't known. Yeah. But so because of that, people kind of can work very independently and even misunderstand one another, which is good because that leads to like the misunderstanding can then lead to kind of creative, like developments where people through different tastes might find different aspects of the same problem. Interesting. And the whole thing is then kind of better that way. And then  [00:29:34] Ben: [00:29:35] like resolving, resolving. The confusion in a legible way,  [00:29:40] Semon: it sort of pushes the field. So that's, but also because everyone kind of can work on their own, you know, coordination involves, you know, a certain amount of narrative alignment. And so you have to understand like, oh, this person is naturally suited to this kind of question. This person is naturally suited to this kind of question. So what are questions where both people are. First of all, you would need both people to make progress on it. That gives you competitive advantage, which is important, extremely important in kind of any scientific landscape. And secondly if you can find a question of overlap, then, you know, there's some natural division of labor or some natural way in which both people can enlighten the other in surprising ways. If you can do everything yourself and you have some other person, like write it up, that's sort of not that phonic club. So yeah, so there's, and then there's like, kind of on a [00:30:35] larger, but that's like kind of one on a single project collaboration to do larger collaboration. You have to kind of, you know, give you have to assign essentially you have to assign social value to questions, right? Like math, unlike sort of the math is small enough that it can just barely survive. It's credit assigning system almost entirely on the basis of the social network of mathematicians. Oh, interesting. Okay. It is certainly important to have papers refereed because like it's important for somebody to read a paper and check the details. So the journals do matter, but a lot happen. So, you know, it doesn't have the same scaling. The biology or machine learning has in part, because it's a small,  [00:31:20] Ben: do you know, like roughly how many mathematicians. I can, I can look this  [00:31:25] Semon: up. I mean, it depends on who you count as a mathematician. So that's the technique I'm asking you. The reason, the reason I'm asking [00:31:35] that is because of course there's the American mathematical society and they publish, like, this is the number of mathematicians. And the thing is like, they count like quite a lot of people. So you actually have the decision actually dramatically changes your answer. I would say there are on the order of the. Tens of thousands of mathematicians. Like if you think about like the number of attendees of the ICM, the international Congress of mathematicians, like, and then, you know, the thing is a lot of people, so it depends on like pure mathematicians, how pure, you know, that's going to go up and down. But that's sort of the right order of magnitude. Okay. Cause which is a very small given that  [00:32:12] Ben: a compared to, to most other disciplines then, especially compared to even. Science as a whole like research  [00:32:20] Semon: has a whole. Yeah. So yeah, I think like if you look at like, you know, all the, if you say like, well look at the Harvard Kennedy school of business, and then they have an MBA program, which is my impression is it's serious. [00:32:35] And then you also look at like all the math pieces. Graduates and like the top 15 kind of us schools are kind of like, you know, I think the MBAs are like several times lecture. Yes. So that's, maybe I was surprised to learn that  [00:32:50] Ben: that's also good. Instead of  [00:32:51] Semon: like, you can look at the output rate, the flow rate, that's a very easy way to decide. Yeah. But yeah, so you have to, yeah. So kind of you, there's like kind of, depending on how, if you can let go. There are certain you have to, if you want to work with people, you have to find you, there's not, you can't really be a PI in mathematics, but if you are good at talking to people, you can encourage people to work on certain questions. So that over time kind of a larger set of questions get answered, and you can also make public statements to the and which are in some ways, invitations, like. If you guys do these [00:33:35] things, then it'll be better for you because they fit into a larger context. So therefore your work is more significant that you're actually doing them a service by explaining some larger context. And simultaneously by sort of pointing out that maybe some problem is easy or comparatively, easy to some people that you, you might not do. So that helps you if then they solve the problem because you kind of made a correct prediction of like, there is good mathematic. Yeah. So this is some complicated social game that, you know, mathematicians are not like, you know, they're kind of strange socially, but they do kind of play this game and the way in which they play this game depends on their personal preferences and how social they are. [00:34:13] Ben: And actually speaking of the social nature of mathematics I get the impression that mathematics sort of as a discipline is. It feels much closer to what one might think of as like old academia then many other disciplines in the sense that my, my impression is [00:34:35] that your, your tenure isn't as much based on like how much grant money you're getting in. And It's, it's not quite as much like a paper mill up and out  [00:34:46] Semon: gay. Yeah. There's definitely pressure to publish. There, the expected publishing rate definitely depends on the area. So, you know, probability publishers more, in some ways it's a little bit more like applied mathematics, which has more of a kind of paper mill quality to it. I don't want to overstate that. But so there is space for people to write just a few papers if they're good and have got a job. Yeah. And so it's definitely true as I think in the rest of the sciences, that kind of high quality trumps quantity. Right. Then, you know, but modular, the fact that you do have, you do have to produce a certain amount of work in order to stay in academia and You know, in the end, like where you end up is very much determined on the significance of your work. Right. And if you're very productive, consistently, certainly helps with people are kind of not as [00:35:35] worried. But yeah, it's definitely not determined based on grant money because essentially there's not that much grant money to go around. So that makes it have more of this old-school flavor. And it's also true that it's still not, it's genuinely not strange for people to graduate with like just their thesis to graduate from a PhD program. And they can do very well. So long as they, during grad school learn something that other people don't know and that matters. That seems that that's helpful, but so that allows for, yeah, this. You know, th this there's this weird trick that mathematicians play, where like proofs are kind of supposedly a universal language that everyone can read. And that's not quite true, but it tries to approximate that ideal. But everyone has sort of allowed to go on their own little journey and the communities does spend a lot of work trying to defend that. What,  [00:36:25] Ben: what sort of, what, what does that work  [00:36:27] Semon: actually look like? Well, I think it's true that it is actually true that grad students are not required to like publish a paper a year. Yeah, [00:36:35] that's true. And that's great that people, I think, do defend that kind of position and they are willing to put their reputation on the line and the kind of larger hiring process to defend that SAC separately. It's true that, you know, You know, work that is not coming out of one of the top three people or something is can still be considered legitimate. You know, because like total it's approved, it's approved. No one can disagree with it. So if some random person makes some progress, you know, it's actually very quickly. If, if people can understand it, it's very quickly kind of. And this allows communities to work without quite understanding one or other for awhile and maybe make progress that way, which can be  [00:37:18] Ben: helpful. Yeah. And and most of the funding for math departments actually comes from teaching. Is that  [00:37:26] Semon: yeah, I think that a lot of it comes from teaching. A certain chunk of it comes from grants. Like basically people use grants to, in order to teach less. Yeah. That's more or [00:37:35] less how it works. You know, of course there's this, as in, you know, mathematics has this kind of current phenomenon where, you know, rich individuals like fund a department or something or they fund a prize. But by and large, it seems to be less dependent on these gigantic institutional handouts from say the NSF or the NIH, because that the expenses aren't quite yet. But it does also mean that like, it is sort of constrained and you know, it can't, you know, like big biology has like, kind of so much money, maybe not enough, not as much as it needs. I mean, these grant acceptance rates are extremely low.  [00:38:13] Ben: If it's, for some reason, it's every mathematician magically had say order of magnitude more funding  [00:38:21] Semon: when it matters. Yeah. So it's not clear that they would know what to do with that. There is, I thought a lot about the question of, to what degree does the mathematics is some kind of social enterprise and that's maybe true of every research [00:38:35] program, but it's particularly true in mathematics because it's sort of so dependent on individual creativity. So I've thought a lot about to what degree you could scale the social enterprise and in what directions it could scale because it's true that kind of producing mathematicians is essentially an expensive and ad hoc process. But at the same time, Plausibly true that people might be able to do research of a somewhat different kind just in terms of collaborations or in terms of like what they felt to do free to do research on if they had access to different kind of funding, like math itself is cheap, but the. Kind of freedom to say, okay, well, these next two years, I'm going to do this kind of crazy different thing. And that does not have to fit with my existing research program that could, that you have to sort of fight for. And that's like a more basic stroke thing about the structure of kind of math academia. I feel like  [00:39:27] Ben: that's, that's like structurally baked into almost the entire world where there's just a ton of it's, it's [00:39:35] very hard to do something completely different than the things that you have done. Right? People, people, boat, people. Our book more inclined to help you do things like what you've done in the past. And they are inclined to push against you doing different things. Yeah,  [00:39:50] Semon: that's true.  [00:39:50] Ben: And, and sort of speaking of, of money in the past, you've also pointed out that math is terrible at capturing the value that it creates in this.  [00:40:02] Semon: Well, yeah. You know, math is, I mean, it may be hard to estimate kind of human capital value. Like maybe all mathematicians should be doing something else. I don't really know how to reason about that, but it's definitely objectively very cheap. Just in the sense of like all the funding that goes into mathematics is very little and arguably the  [00:40:21] Ben: sort of downstream, like basically every, every technical anything we have is to some extent downstream. Mathematics  [00:40:32] Semon: th there is an argument to be made of that kind. You know, [00:40:35] I don't think one should over I think, you know, there are extreme versions of this argument, which I think are maybe not helpful for thinking about the world. Like you shouldn't think like, ah, yes, computer science is downstream of the program. Like this turning thing. Like, I don't really know that it's fair to say that, but it is true that whenever mathematicians produce something that's kind of more pragmatically useful for other people, it tends to be. It tends to be easy to replicate and it tends to be very robust. So there are lots of other ideas of this kind and, you know, separately, even a bunch of the value of mathematics to the larger world seems to me to not even be about specific mathematical discoveries, but to be about like the existence of this larger language and culture. So, you know, neural network people now, you know, they have all of these like echo variant neural networks. Yeah. You know, that's all very old mathematics. But it's very helpful to have kind of that stuff feel like totally, like you need to have those kinds of ideas be completely explored [00:41:35] before a totally different community can really engage with them. And that kind of complete kind of that sort of underlying cultural substrate actually does allow for different kinds of things, because doing that exploration takes a few people a lot of time. So in that sense, then it's very hard to like you know, yeah. What you do well, most mathematicians do things which will have no relevance to the larger world. Although it may be necessary for the progress of the sort of more useful basal things. Like the idea of a manifold came out of like studying elliptic functions historically and manifolds are very useful idea. And I looked at functions are or something. I mean, they're also useful, but they maybe less well known. Certainly I think a typical scientist does not know about them. Yeah. It came out, but it did come out of like studying transformation laws for elliptic functions, which is a pretty abstruse sounding thing. So, but because of that, there's just, there's no S it's very hard to find a way for mathematicians to kind of like dip into the future. And because like, you can have a startup. You know, like it's not going to be industrially useful, but it is [00:42:35] clearly on this sort of path in a way that you kind of, it's very hard to imagine removing a completely. Yeah.  [00:42:42] Ben: So, no, I like it also because it's, again, it's, it's sort of this extreme example of some kind of continuum where it's like, everybody knows that math is really important, but then everybody also knows that it's not a. Immediately  [00:43:02] Semon: applicable. Yeah. And there's this question of, how do you kind of make the navigation that continuum smoother and that has you know, that's like a cultural issue and like an institutional issue to some degree, you know, it's probably true that new managers do know lots of stuff, empirically they get hired and then they get, they like, their lives are fine. So it seems that, you know, people recognize that but the, you know, various also in part too, because mathematicians try to kind of preserve this sort of space for [00:43:35] people to explore. There is a lot of resistance in the pure mathematics community for people to try to like try random stuff and collaborate with people. And, you know, there is probably some niche for you know, Interactions between mathematically minded people and kind of things which are more relevant to the contemporary world or near contemporary world. And that niches one where it's navigation was a little bit obscure. It's not There aren't, there are some institutions around it, but it's, it doesn't seem to me to be like completely systematized. And that's in part because of the resistance of the pure mathematics community. Like historically, I mean, you know, it's true that like statistics, departments kind of used to be part of pure mathematics departments and then they got kicked out, probably they left and they were like, we can make more money than you. No, seriously. I don't know. I mean, there's like, I don't know the history of Berkeley stats department isn't famously one of the first ones that have this. I don't know the detailed history, but there was definitely some kind of conflict and it was a cultural conflict. Yeah. So these sorts of cultural [00:44:35] issues are things that I guess anyone has a saying, and I, I'm kind of very curious how they will evolve in the coming 50 years. Yeah.  [00:44:42] Ben: To, to change the subject just a bit again the, can you, can you dig into how. Do you call them retreats? Like when, when the, the thing where you get a bunch of mathematicians and you get them to all live in a place  [00:44:56] Semon: for like, so there's this interesting well that's, there are things with a couple CS there. Of course they're there. That's maybe. So there are kind of research programs. So that's where some Institute has flies together. Post-docs maybe some grad students, maybe some sort of senior faculty and they all spend time in one area for a couple of months in order to maybe make progress on some kind of idea of a question. So, yeah. That is something that there are kind of dedicated institutes to doing. In some sense, this is one of the places where like kind of external [00:45:35] funding has changed the structure of mathematics. Cause like the Institute of advanced study is basically one of these things. Yes. This Institute at Princeton where like basically a few old people, I mean, I'm kind of joking, but you know, there's a few kind of totemic people like people who have gone there because they sort of did something famous and they sit there. And then what the Institute has done yesterday actually does in mathematics is it has these semester, longer year long programs. We're just house funding for a bunch of people to space. Been there spent a year there or half a year there, where to fly in there for a few weeks, a few times in the year. And that gets everyone together in one area and maybe by interacting, they can kind of figure out what's going on in some theoretical question, a different thing that people have done in much more short term is there's like a, kind of an interesting conference format, which is like, reminds me a little bit of like unconferences or whatnot, but it's actually kind of very serious where people choose you know, hot topic. In a [00:46:35] kind of contemporary research and then they like rent out a giant house and then they have, I don't know, 20 people live in this house and maybe cook together and stuff. And then, you know, everyone there's like every learning center is like a week long learning seminar where there's some people who are like real experts in the area, a bunch of people who don't know that much, but would like to learn. And then everyone has to give a talk on subjects that they don't know. And then there's serious people. The older people can go and point out where some, if there is a confusion and yeah, everyone. So there's like talks from nine to five and it's pretty exhausting. And then afterwards, you know, everyone goes on a hike or sits in the hot tub and talks about life and mathematics and that can be extremely productive and very fun. And it's also extremely cheap because it's much cheaper to rent out a giant house than it is to rent out a bunch of hotels. So. If you're willing to do that, which most mathematicians are and a story,  [00:47:25] Ben: like, I don't know if I'm misremembering this, but I remember you telling me a story where like, there were, there were two people who like needed [00:47:35] to figure something out together and like they never would have done it except for the fact that they just were like sitting at dinner together every night for, for some number of nights. [00:47:45] Semon: I. I mean, there are definitely apocryphal stories of that kind where eventually people realize that they're talking about the same thing. I can't think of an example, right? I think I told you, you asked me, you know, is there an example of like a research program where it's clear that some major advance happened because two people were in the same area. And I gave an example, which was a very contemporary example, which is far outside of my area of expertise, but which is this. You know, Peter Schultz Lauren far kind of local geometric language and stuff where basically there was at one of these at this Institute in Berkeley. They had a program and these two people were there and Schultz was like a really technically visionary guy and Fargo talked very deeply about certain ideas. And then they realized that basically like the sort of like fart, his dream could actually be made. And I think before that [00:48:35] people didn't quite realize like how far this would go. So that's kinda, I just gave you that as an example and that happens on a regular basis. That's maybe the reason why people have these programs and conferences, but it's hard to predict because so, you know, I don't really, like, I wish I could measure a rate. Yes.  [00:48:50] Ben: You just need that marination. It's actually like, okay. Oh, a weird thought that just occurred to me. Yeah. That this sort of like just getting people to hang out and talk is unique in mathematics because you do not need to do cause like you can actually do real work by talking and writing on a whiteboard. And that like, if you wanna to replicate this in some other field, you would actually need that house to be like stocked with laboratory. Or something so that people could actually like, instead of just talking, they could actually like poke at whatever  the  [00:49:33] Semon: subject is. That would [00:49:35] be ideal, but that would be hard because experiments are slow. The thing that you could imagine doing, or I could imagine doing is people are willing to like, share like very preliminary data, then they could kind of both look at something and figure out oh, I have something to say about your final. And I, that I don't know to what degree that really happens at say biology conferences, because there is a lot of competitive pressure to be very deliberate in the disclosure of data since it's sort of your biggest asset. Yeah.  [00:50:05] Ben: And is it, how, how does mathematics not fall into that trap?  [00:50:11] Semon: That is a great question. In part there is. So I'm part, there are somewhat strong norms against that, like, because the community is small enough. If it's everyone finds out like, oh yeah, well this person just like scooped kind of, yeah. There's a very strong norm against scooping. That's lovely. It's okay. In certain contexts, like if, if, if it's clear for everyone, like somebody [00:50:35] could do this and somebody does the thing and it's because it was that it's sort of not really scooping. Sure. But if you, if there is really You know, word gets around, like who kind of had which ideas and when people behave in a way that seems particularly adversarial that has consequences for them. So that's one way in which mathematics avoids that another way is that there's just like maybe it's, it's actually true that different people have kind of different skills. It is a little bit less competitive structurally because it isn't like everyone is working at the same kind of three problems. And everyone has like all the money to go and like, just do the thing. And  [00:51:16] Ben: it's like small enough that everybody can have a specialization such that there are people like you, you can always do something that someone else can't.  [00:51:24] Semon: Often there are people, I mean, that, that might depend on who you are. But yeah, often people with. It's more like it's large enough for that to be the case. Right? Like you [00:51:35] can develop some intuition about some area where yeah. Other people might be able to kind of prove what you're proving, but you might be much better at it than them. So people will be like, yeah, why don't you do it? That's helpful. Yeah. It's that's useful. I mean, it certainly can happen that in the end, like, oh, there's some area on everyone has the same tools and then it does get competitive and people do start. Sorry. I think in some ways it has to do with like a diversity of tools. Like if, if every different lab kind of has a tool, which like the other labs don't have, then there's less reason to kind of compete. You know, then you might as well kind of, but also that has to do with the norms, right? Like your, the pressure of being the person on the ground is that's a very harsh constraint. That's not. Premiere. I mean that my understand, I guess, that is largely imposed by the norms of the community itself in the sense that like a lot of like an NIH grants are actually kind of determined by scientific committees [00:52:35] or committees of scientists. So,  [00:52:38] Ben: I mean, you could argue about that, right? Because  [00:52:41] Semon: don't,  [00:52:42] Ben: is it, is it like, I mean, yes, but then like, those committees are sort of mandated by the structure of the funding agencies. Right. And so is it which, and there's of course a feedback loop and they've been so intertwined for decades that I'm clear which way that causality runs. [00:53:02] Semon: Yeah. So I remember those are my two guesses for how it's like one, there's just like a very strong norm against this. And you don't, you just don't, you know, if you're the person with the idea. And then you put the other person on the paper because they like were helpful. You don't lose that much. So it's just, you're not that disincentivized from doing it. Like in the end, people will kind of find out like, who did what work to some degree, even though officially credit is shared. And that means that, you know, everyone can kind of get. [00:53:35]  [00:53:35] Ben: It seems like a lot of this does is depend on, on  [00:53:38] Semon: scale. Yeah. It's very scale because you can actually find out. Right. And that's a trade-off right. Obviously. So, but maybe not as bad a trade off in mathematics, because it's not really clear what you would do with a lot more scale. On the other hand, you don't know, like, you know, if you look at, say a machine learning, this is a subject that's grown tremendously. And in part, you know, they have all these crazy research directions, which you, I think in the end kind of can only happen because they've had so many different kinds of people look at the same set of ideas. So when you have a lot of people looking at something and they're like empowered to try it, it is often true that you kind of progress goes faster. I don't really know why that would be false in mathematics.  [00:54:23] Ben: Do you want to say anything about choosing the right level of Metta newness? Hmm.  [00:54:28] Semon: Yeah. You're thinking about, I guess this is a, this is like a question [00:54:35] for, this is like a personal question for everyone almost. I mean, everyone who has some freedom over what they work on, which is actually not that many people you know, You in any problem domain, whether that's like science, like science research or whether that's like career or whatnot, or even, you know, in a company there's this kind of the, the bird frog dichotomy is replicated. What Altitude's. Yeah. So for example, you know, in math, in mathematics, you could either be someone who. Puts together, lots of pieces and spend lots of time understanding how things fit together. Or you can be someone who looks at a single problem and makes hard progress at it. Similarly, maybe in biology, you can also mean maybe I have a friend who was trying to decide whether she should be in an individual contributor machine learning research company, or. And that for her in part is Metta non-metro choice. So she [00:55:35] really likes doing kind of like explicit work on something, being down to the ground as a faculty, she would have to do more coordination based work. But that, like, let's see, you kind of have more scope. And also in many cases you are so in many areas, but not in all doing the. Is a higher status thing, or maybe it's not higher status, but it's better compensated. So like on a larger scale, obviously we have like people who work in finance and may in some ways do kind of the most amount of work and they're compensated extremely well by society. And but you need people you need, you know, very kind of talented people to work with. Yeah, problems down to the ground because otherwise nothing will happen. Like you can't actually progress by just rearranging incentive flows and having that kind of both sides of this be kind of the incentives be appropriately structured is a very, very challenging balancing act because you need both kinds of people. But you know, you need a larger system in which they work and there's no reason for that [00:56:35] system. A B there's just no structural reason why the system would be compensating people appropriately, unless like, there are specific people who are really trying to arrange for that to be the case. And that's you know, that's very hard. Yeah. So everyone kind of struggles with this. And I think because in sort of gets resolved based on personal preference. Yeah.  [00:56:54] Ben: I think, I think that's, yeah. I liked that idea that the. Unless sort of by default, both like status and compensation will flow to the more Metta people. But then that ultimately will be disastrous if, if, if taken to its logical conclusion. And so it's like, we need to sort of stand up for the trend.  [00:57:35] 

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Ben Westerham. Check out our discussion of his David Good P.I. and Banbury Cross Murder mystery series! This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I'm your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I'll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You'll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so. Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting. I'm a Blubrry affiliate, but that's not the only reason I'm telling you this. I've been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it's one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you're in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it's a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn't require a long-term contract, and it's just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn't that nice? If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I've included an affiliate link on this blog. Here's a PDF transcript of the interview! Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of two crime and mystery series. One is the David Good, PI series, and as you can see if you're watching me on video—or not see if you're listening—I'm holding up my Kobo with the second David Good book queued up and ready to read. I am a big fan at this point of the Good series, and also it is a good series, more than just the protagonist. He also writes the Banbury Cross Murder Mysteries, which I haven't tried yet, but they certainly sound interesting. Originally from London, he now lives in rural Northamptonshire in the Midlands. I'm pleased to have with me crime writer, Ben Westerham. Hi Ben, how are you doing today? Ben: Hello, Debbi. I'm not so bad and it's great to be here. Been looking forward to this for quite a while. Debbi: I know. It took long enough, huh? My gosh, I cannot believe how many people are signing up for this thing. I'm booked into 2024, believe it or not. Ben: You are super-popular, aren't you? Debbi: I don't know how this happened. I don't know. It's one of those inexplicable things. I have to say that one of the things I enjoyed about the first David Good novel was that it was a hardboiled private eye story with a distinctive British feel to it. I've read all kinds of British fiction, all kinds of private eye fiction, but this one really felt like Raymond Chandler channeled through a British veil or with a British accent, and a feel of almost parody about it but not quite. Is that what you're going for here? Is it parody? Ben: I'm delighted to hear you say that. Yes. When I sat down to decide what I wanted to write for the first series, I'm not surprised; I read a lot of crime, so immediately I was drawn to crime. And I did then think I wouldn't mind having a go at hardboiled, but I couldn't get myself just to write straight hardboiled, I think in no small part it's the old imposter syndrome thing. You just think so many other people done it so well, I'm going to come along and what am I going to do? But I do like humor as well so what I've tried to do is exactly those bits that you've already mentioned was to bring th...

In this week's show, Phil talks to Ben Hong, a Vue.js Core Team Member and a Staff Developer Experience Engineer at Netlify as well as a Google Developer Expert in Web Technologies & Map Platforms. He has spoken, taught and Emc'ed around the world at events such as VueConfUS, Vue Toronto and O'Reilly's Fluent Conf. He is also a lead instructor at Vue Mastery, one of the premier learning platforms for the Vue.js community. Ben discusses the value in investing in yourself with a growth mind-set. He also talks about why we should always appreciate our personal career path, and the experiences that make it unique.   KEY TAKEAWAYS:   TOP CAREER TIP Always invest in yourself with a growth mind-set. Look for methods and ways to improve and develop in your own time, as every time your move forward, you add value to your career as a whole.   WORST CAREER MOMENT After completing a project, Ben was suddenly asked about which direction he wished to go next, and could not answer. This taught him the value in focusing on specific skills and directions.   CAREER HIGHLIGHT Getting the opportunity to join his current development team. For a long time, Ben had wished to reintroduce UX design to his portfolio, and this gave him the opportunity to do so.   THE FUTURE OF CAREERS IN I.T Ben is excited about the popularity of open source, and the wealth of ideas happening right now on the web. The possibilities are seemingly endless.   THE REVEAL What first attracted you to a career in I.T.? – Ben read an HTML book when young, and was instantly excited by the possibilities. What's the best career advice you received? – Listen, learn, and then become the person that people come to with questions. What's the worst career advice you received? – That his dream career path was not possible. What would you do if you started your career now? – Ben would have taken much better notes! What are your current career objectives? Content generation, and empowering others to build incredible things. What's your number one non-technical skill? – Relationship building. How do you keep your own career energized? – Ben ensures that he associates with communities who understand the burnout that can blight many IT careers. What do you do away from technology? – Playing the ukulele.   FINAL CAREER TIP Never hesitate to invest in yourself, as no one can ever take away the knowledge you gain or the experiences you have.   BEST MOMENTS (4:19) – Ben - “You are getting the compound interest from skills at a much faster pace. This is key to long term sustainability when it comes to a career in IT” (10:24) – Ben - “That cluster of ideas, discussions and debates – that is what excites me. There's a lot to come and it's far from over” (12:49) – Ben – “By building relationships with people so they trust you, it does a lot for the impact and influence that you can have” (15:51) – Ben – “Coding problems aren't hard. People problems are hard”   ABOUT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil Burgess is an independent IT consultant who has spent the last 20 years helping organizations to design, develop, and implement software solutions.  Phil has always had an interest in helping others to develop and advance their careers.  And in 2017 Phil started the I.T. Career Energizer podcast to try to help as many people as possible to learn from the career advice and experiences of those that have been, and still are, on that same career journey.   CONTACT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms: Twitter: https://twitter.com/_PhilBurgess LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/philburgess Instagram: https://instagram.com/_philburgess Website: https://itcareerenergizer.com/contact Phil is also reachable by email at phil@itcareerenergizer.com and via the podcast's website, https://itcareerenergizer.com Join the I.T. Career Energizer Community on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/ITCareerEnergizer   ABOUT THE GUEST – BEN HONG Ben Hong is a Vue.js Core Team Member and a Staff Developer Experience Engineer at Netlify as well as a Google Developer Expert in Web Technologies & Map Platforms. He has spoken, taught and Emc'ed around the world at events such as VueConfUS, Vue Toronto and O'Reilly's Fluent Conf. He is also a lead instructor at Vue Mastery, one of the premier learning platforms for the Vue.js community.   CONTACT THE GUEST – BEN HONG Ben Hong can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms: Twitter: https://twitter.com/bencodezen LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bencodezen/ Website: https://www.bencodezen.io/

Show notes:Links:Bold Badgers NFTMantis scooterRidwellWrite for HoneybadgerTranscript:*note - this is an unedited automatically generated transcript with about 80% accuracy*Josh: So we really are we doing this, uh, super quick. Do we need to like speed up our voices? ArtificiallyBen: The chipmonk episode.Starr: There you go. No, we should just, we should slow them down. So it'll um, we can just record  a  minute episode and then we'll take  minutes to listen to it.Josh: Yeah, yeah. That's right. That's what we've been doing all along. That's our life hack is it takes us  minutes to record these episodes and you listened to them in  minutes.Starr: Yeah. So that's the, um, so I'll fill in our listeners. We, um, we miss our normal recording day on Friday, and so we're making it up on a Monday, which means like we're jam packed in with a bunch of other stuff. Um, so this may be a little  shorter than usual and I'm sorry. I know you just have to have all of us all the time and we're just giving it all we can right now.Josh: Yeah, it'll be just as off topic though. So, um,Starr: I would thank God.Ben: Yeah. Speaking, speaking of off topic, I have, I have a public service announcement to make. As, as you know, I've been getting more into the electric vehicles scene, uh, personal mobility, micro mobility, all that kind of fun stuff. And I, you know, a few months ago bought an electric scooter.  It's a mantis for those who are curious, who are in the know, uh, and I've been really enjoying that, like riding back and forth to work and goofing off and that sort of thing. But the thing that's, the public service announcement is, uh, wear a helmet. If you're going to ride one of these pillars. I just, this past week saw two different people riding on scooters, similar to mine, like higher powered scooters, mixing it up with traffic, like on  mile per hour roads and not wearing a helmet. And I just thought that is insane.  Like, I don't know. Maybe, maybe, yeah, you should definitely wear a helmet if you're going to ride electric scooter at  miles an hour, just saying that's my PSA.Josh: I did go for, I went for a, my first ride on an EBI bike, um, last week and I must confess I did not wear a helmet. And, uh, I have to say it was, you know, it was kind of fun. Like, you know, little dangerous,  there was no traffic. Like there was very little traffic, so in my defense.Ben: Okay. That's a plus. Do you remember what kind of bike your Rover's like a super ? Like one of those modelsJosh: I have, I have a very bad memory for names of things and I was told, but, uh, no, I don't know, but actually I was, it was with, uh, it was the bike of, uh, Mike Perrin, who is a friend of the show and creator of sidekick. So I'm  sure he will, uh, hopefully listen to this and, and let us know. And then we can fill everyone in the next week. MaybeBen: I think, I think he has a super . It's a, and that's a pretty sweet,Josh: It's like the super it's like one of the fastest ones on the market, he said, yeah, cool. Or something like that.Ben: I'm going to have to get down to Mike's house and borrow some of his bikes. AndJosh: It was a lot of fun. I'd never, I'd never done that before. And I, I get the appeal now.Ben: Yeah. So when, when I got my scooter, Mike was like, I don't  know, scooters. They're kind of, uh, I don't exactly what he tweeted, but he's like, yeah, they're kind of sketchy because they're not very stable and stuff and he's right. They are integrated stable compared to the bikes, but it's still a lot of fun. So I just wear a full face helmet to counteract the wobbliness. Yeah.Starr: Did y'all know I have a, an electric bike? No, it's called a Peloton.Josh: You were so smug with that one.Starr: It's the perfect bike for me because it doesn't move. Um, it's like all the, got all the nice things about the bike, like the workout, but you don't go anywhere. You don't have to Dodge any traffic. Uh, don't have to wear a helmet screen.Josh: Yeah. Those sound, those do sound seriously though. Those, those, uh, look pretty, pretty nice.Ben: Yeah. I have, I have a low-tech Peloton. It's just a trainer. I brought my bike on.Josh: Is your bike on it? Yeah. Yeah. But I like, I don't know the what, from what I've heard of the Peloton  , uh, those they've got all the bells and whistles right star.Starr: Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, really it's um, it's not so much about the actual bike for me. It is, as it is about having some like super enthusiastic person, like, um, playing really good music and just being like, you've got this, you were born for greatness and just like saying stuff like that at me. Um, while I'm like trying to, you know, read them a little bit,Josh: You say that, but like, you know, like I, I try to, you know, give that experience  to Katelyn, for instance, my wife and she just like, she hates like, she's like get, get out of here.Starr: I think, I think it's easier. I think it's a little easier when there's not like an actual person there, you know, Just hire a social exerciseBen: That started out live, get, you know, the, uh, the motivational speaker guy lives in a, down by the river. I'm just, I'm just thinking about Chris Farley,  like standing by your exercise bike. You can do it. You've got this.Josh: If we could get a, yeah. If we could get that, um, on the Peloton, I would subscribe like if he was one of the trainers, I mean, like, you know,Ben: So just bring him back from the dead, have him record some such the Peloton and then, yeah, that'd be awesome. I miss Chris Farley.Starr: So Ida likes to ride the Peloton too, that she's not big enough for it. Um, but she  is a, her, her feet can touch the pedals. Um, but they can't reach all the way down. So she's kinda like kicks the pedal down and then catches it on the way back up. And so she asked me to put on a little video so she can do it to the music too. Yeah. Oh, I need to give an update about my, um, about the printing press. I know everybody's like waited, waiting the press breath about thatJosh: Date. I thought, yeah. I didn't know. There was news so, well, IStarr: Mean, the news  is I have given up on it. I went down to Tacoma. I went down to see it and it worked and everything, and I just really got a sense for like how big and heavy it was going to be. And, um, then I started, I measured it and I started actually trying to figure out how I would get it into my building. Um, because like, it's just, my, my office is  in the backyard. It's, uh, it's, we're having our backyard redone soon, but right now it's just all bumpy and lumpy. And so it's like trying to like roll this thing. I would have to construct like a, a path out of plywood. I'd have to build a ramp up to my, um, the doorway, um, then to actually get it into the location where it's going to be. I would have to completely like dismantle all my shelving and, um, then like re assemble it once I had put the thing in place.  And so if I ever wanted to move it again, I'd have to like completely take down all my shelving. I was just like, this is too much. Like, this is, um, like I can't, I can't justify this on it. Like I'm, I'm waking up early in the morning and not being able to get back to sleep. Cause I'm like, how the hell am I going to like move this thing? It's like, no, that's not a good hobby for me right now.Ben: That's too bad. Have you looked into typewriters?Starr: I mean, quite the same thingJosh: I would get into typewriters  though. Just like aside,Starr: I am looking into smaller, into a smaller press. They have smaller like desktop ones that are a couple of hundred pounds. Um, not, not like a thousand and looking into that sad,Ben: sad to hear it didn't work out, but I let's get pictures of that in any one. If you get a small one, that'd be kind of fun.Starr: Yeah. I just have to, I, uh, I almost saw him this weekend, but somebody swooped in before me. And so now I'm just going to have to wait like six  months until another one pops up. Cause like it's, they're not very, there's not a very liquid market. It's not like in a, I guess, I guess there is a liquid market, I guess, I guess they just kind of get snapped, snatched up and then like, there's just not any of them. Yeah.Josh: Do you still get to like, do you have to do like type setting and stuff?Starr: Yeah. You do like, um, there's a couple ways to do it. Like you can do it the old school way where you have like the lead type and you like, um, you know, put it letter by letter and do like a composing  stick and do all that. Um, I probably wouldn't do that just because I'm not sure I have the time and patience. Um, so there's a, an updated way to do it where, um, you can, um, you know, send a PDF off and they'll make a, uh, a plate for you and it's plastic and then you just use that. So, um, yeah. And you can make them yourself too. It's just, you know, takes more equipment and more, you know, you know how I'm work and stuff.Josh: Maybe you could get like a specialized, d printer to like printer plates for you.Starr: Cool. Do you use like, uh, um, people to use like a, a Glowforge like a laser cutter cool. Or laser engraver?Josh: That's a, that's a fun hobby. That sounds, that sounds like fun.Starr: Oh yeah. Oh, I went down the rabbit hole of reading all about laser engravers too. Like there's like this cheap one from China that you can get for like  bucks. And then like,  it's apparently got good internals, but like, you really have to soup it up. And so like that's some people's whole personality is they just do that.Josh: Nice before we get off the topic of a paper and things that interface with paper. Um, I like ordered something off of Amazon that I was like, I don't know why I was like this excited about it arriving. Like maybe I'm just like extreme, like my, you know, I'm extremely  bored and needed something to look forward to. But like Amazon basics, paper, shreds, shredder, sharpening, and lubricate, lubricant sheets. And I get all, I'm not going to say that again. I hope you like got that. Um, I did not know that this existed though. Cause like I have like a paper shredder. It's like a cheap, you know, a cheap one, but like I never, like, I never oil it cause don't like just, I don't know how, okay. Like just the thought of like getting a, like a bottle  of oil or something and like trying to like dump it.Josh: Like I just, I don't know. So I like was like trying to figure out like, how do you oil these things? And it turns out they make sheets of paper that had the oil like in them and you just run them through the shredder. I didn't know. Like maybe everyone knows this. I did not know this was a thing. And uh, I mean it's like the perfect, it's like the perfect, uh, lubricant solution for your shredder because, um, you just, you know, it's like shredding a piece of paper, which is fun in and of itself.  Like who doesn't like shredding paper. So pro tip, you don't needStarr: Waiting. How do they work? Um,Josh: My shredder might be too far gone from the lack of oiling, but I'm going to like, wait and see. Oh no, we'll wait and see. Luckily I did get the cheap one. So now that I'm like an expert on shredder maintenance, um, my next shredder maybe I'll even upgrade or something.Starr: I actually, um, I bought an Amazon basic shredder. That  is, uh, it's a, it's a fairly big one, um, for home use, but it's, it's uh, Amazon basics and it's actually really good.Ben: That is a cross cut. Cause that's the key feature right there.Starr: I, I think the cross cuts. Yeah. SeeBen: Mine. Mine's a cheapo one that just does stripsJosh: And that's, I mean that's the strips. Yeah.Ben: Gotta have the crossover.Starr: Yeah. They can always go in the strips back together.Josh: Yeah.Ben: I was a little disturbed to find out  though. My, my local trash and recycling facility, uh, our city requests that you not put shredded paper in the recycle, uh, I don't know why they can't handle the recycle shredded paper, but yeah. So if, if all the stuff that I shred, it has to go in the trash, which seems kind of wrong, you know, it's like it's paper cause then recycle. Right. ButJosh: That's because I'm pretty sure recycling is a big scam and none of it actually works. Like you think it does because like Kaylin, like  Katelyn knows all about recycling and I am constantly trying to like be a good person and recycle things and she's like, no, that's not recyclable. Like you can't like, that's going to actually like, that's going to like make the recycling people mad because like they have to sort through this and like, you know, take it out before they can actually like repurpose. So yeah, it seems like there's very, uh, relatively little that is actually recyclable. At least in my experience. So farStarr: We subscribed to an additional recycling service,  um, read well. And uh, yeah. So they like, you can't recycle, um, just a normal city was like, when you can't put like plastic bags or any sort of like plastic film stuff. Right. So like they take that and um, like they'll take, uh, like fabric stuff, like clothes, um, and like batteries and light. And then they have like a rotating category where um, like once every three months or whatever, it's like, you can put your old  electronic devices in there and they'll like, you know, have those recycled and whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty nice.Josh: Yeah. Cause I'm everything I hear lately about like just normal recycling, just as depressing. Like it's like, I don't know. I hear like, you know, half the recycling isn't even like being taken care of taken,Starr: You know, like they're like shippingJosh: It to other countries or burying it in landfills anyways. It just it's like, yeah, it's kind of sad. It doesn't make me want to recycle.Ben: Cool.  Let's see. Maybe, maybe my municipality then is forward-looking because they know there's going to put in the landfill. So there's just saving a step, right? Yeah. Just put it in the trash. Cause we're going to put out the trash anyway. Right?Josh: Yeah. And thenBen: They actually did that for a styrofoam. We used to have a regular styrofoam collection event. Like every month you could go down to city hall and you could dump your old styrofoam and they would take care of it. And then like, you know what, we just can't even cost effectively handle styrofoam anymore. So don't even, it's not even worth driving down to the city  hall to drop it off. Just put it in your trash. It's like, oh, that's so sad.Starr: Well, the, the rebel also does styrofoam. Like it's um, that's cool. It's it's not included in the base like price, but they give you a big bag and they're like, okay, whenever you're done with filling up this giant bag, like it'll cost, I don't know, five or $ to recycle it.Josh: Okay. Well we got to remember put it in the show notes cause I'm going to look at it too. Okay. Sure. I mean, it does seem like I'd rather the city, like if the city like  legitimately can't handle it and they're just like secretly like just trashing it anyway. It's like, it's better just to acknowledge the problem so that a real solution, hopefully it can, you know, like maybe like something like this, like people can start to, you know, pay extra for it or, or whatever. But like, it just seems like ignore, like just pretending, like just, just so everyone can feel good. Like, you know, just keep the people, you know, let them feel like they're recycling when they're not, does  not seem like a solution that's going to like solve any problems.Ben: But you know, what's, what's free to recycle the bits that you send to Honeybadger. We recycle those things all day long. You send us those, those API bits and they get efficiently recycled right away.Starr: I thought y'all were going to recycle those into NFTs.Josh: Oh yes. We don't. Don't uh, can'tBen: Spill the beans yet. Yeah. LikeJosh: Tell everyone our new business strategy. I think already I put that on Twitter already that we're pivoting into crypto and Airtraq and it's going to be a side business. Yes.Starr: It might confuse people. There's already like a Honeybadger coin or something out there.Josh: Yeah. And there's also like multiple Badger NFTs by the way. SoBen: Yeah, just a little delight.Josh: That was like a brave badgers. Brave badgers on Salada. I think there's one.Ben: Yeah. Put that in the show notes. Make sure people check it out.  Not officially endorsed by Honeybadger, but still cool. IStarr: Think we should put out our own line of pugs.Josh: Yes. Yeah. I mean like I'm surprised pugs. Aren't like, so someone's rolling an NFT for pugs, to be honest.Starr: I wasn't making it come back. I hear.Ben: Yeah. If we're going to, if we're going to go retro, like let's go all the way. Retro let's skip the whole collectible cards and stuff and go straight to playing cards. Right. I'll play for the two cards with  different batteries on them. Yeah.Starr: I thought you were going to say to me,  light bulbs or something.Josh: Absolutely. I've been, I'm curious. Have you learned anything about, uh, crypto or NFTs lately?Ben: You know, no, I haven't really, I I've been, I've been watching people in my Twitter feed and it's, it's funny, there's this, there's this arc that I see, like their first tweet is like, what is this crypto stuff? And then their next tweet is like, this crypto stuff is crazy. And then a little bit later, there's another tweet. It's like, I'm going to look into this crypto set because I want to understand it. And then a little bit later there's like,  Hey, check out this NFC I just bought. And then a little bit later, their final tweet is like, here, come join this, this core community and get into my mint.Josh: And, and they have a new Twitter avatar that has like laser eyes.Ben: Yeah. It's kinda, it's crazy. So, so I've like, I've seen this again and again and again, I'm like, okay, I'm not, I'm afraid. I don't wanna investigate the Nazis becauseStarr: So R oh, I'm going to get, I'm going to get, I'm going to get so much hate over this, but our, um, our  NFTs just like, um, MLM for like tech rose.Ben: Yes, totally. They areJosh: Essentially,Starr: That's like, I've got, I've like, I'll just tell my I'm essentially. I've got my sensory over here. My essential oils.Josh: Yeah. Well spring as well. I mean like, technically I think you probably could code a MLM on Ethereum, so I'm sure it's already been done, but maybe that, you know, maybe, maybe we should just go for it. Just go full a  full billing. There you go.Starr: That's it. Everybody you heard it. We're going full villain now.Josh: Crypto villain. Yeah. I I've checked it out as well. A little bit. Um, I bought a, uh, an FTE on Solano just to see. And, um, actually I did not follow the pattern that you, uh, that you described Ben:, but I also did not let myself do this publicly, which I think is a big key. Like you people know,  like you can create anonymous identities on the internet. Um, it's still possible. And then you can go explore, you know, like NFTs or whatever, and you don't have to like have laser eyes on your main Twitter profile. Um, but you know, I went and looked at it and uh, I'm still, I'm like still learning. I'm like, you know, I'm trying to update my, you have the whole crypto scene is a little bit, you know, a little bit dated. Like I  checked it out, like after Bitcoin got, you know, it was starting to get popular and stuff, read some white papers, but I think it's, I mean, it's, you know, it's not going away regardless, so it's good to keep your view current at least. But, um, I am not, uh, you know, bought into, I have an eight in as the kids say,Ben: Well, I mean, back to the two lips, I think I'll just wait until the crash happens. Right. And then I'll have a bias of nice to have thoseJosh: Do that. Yeah. That's the, that's the cycle. I mean, you know, it's going to happen. That happens like in every, every, it seems like every new application of blockchain that, you know, comes out that goes through the same, like boom and bust cycle, um, and then levels out to, uh, you know, fairly regular boom and bust cycle.Ben: I mean, you know, confessional here, but I'm actually a laggard when it comes to tech stuff.  Like I'm pretty late on the adoption curve for a lot of things. Like, you know, my car is pretty old, my TV's kind of old, you know, I'm not really sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's just kinda, it's kinda weird. I'm in the tech world, but like, I don't really jump in on things like that. I'll just wait,Starr: That's pretty normal. Right. There's like, um, I don't know. There's I saw some, I forget where I saw somebody say it was like, there's two types of tech people. One has the newest of everything all the time. And the other one is like still working on like a,  a   PC.Josh: Yeah. Whatever.Starr: Yeah. I don't know about y'all, but like, I don't really know a lot of like tech people who have like, um, like voice assistance in their home.Josh: Yeah. I like that as much as like the consumer more than just regular consumers. Yeah.Ben: That's because we know it's like I write software. I know how bad it is.Josh: Yeah.  Yeah. That's why I don't like having them. So I don't trust, I don't trust software, but I don't know, like the block, the whole blockchain thing. Like, I, I, you know, I kind of get the, like the future application argument, like there's something here. Like I think it is like that idea of having like very easy, like making contracts easier, for instance, or giving software,  the ability, like making it easier to write applications that are built on like contracts or, or even like financial applications. Like the whole idea of like, like code being able to hold its own its own actual currency or money. Um, because it's like, you know, it's just bits. Like that is interesting. Like, I don't know, you know, I'm not enough of a futurist to be able to like see the future where, you know, that's like ubiquitous, but like it is, I can see that aspect of it. It's interesting. But like the whole, like, yeah.  I'm not like collecting a bunch of, uh, NFTs in the meantime.Ben: Yeah. I think smart contracts. The idea is interesting. I think, you know, the stuff that's being loosely called web three, I think that's kind of stuff is interesting, but the, but the whole I'm going to buy a smart contract thing that represents a JPEG and then I'm gonna hold on to it and it's going to be worth a million bucks. That part of it doesn't really appeal to me. Like, yeah, I guess I'm just not yet.Josh: Well, you're also not  an art. You're not like an art collector either. I would assume that's true. I don't think you have a house full of priceless art. I would, that would be my guess. I mean, I don't want to like, yeah, like over assume, but I mean, like, I think that's the kind of person that this would, this definitely like appeals more to like the collector and, uh, I'm, I'm also not a collector. So, um,Ben: Um, I do have one, I do have one piece of art in my house, so I'm not a complete,  you know, Rube, but, uh, but yeah, I am not, I'm not a collector. Yeah.Starr: I think the big, um, like, like I'm thinking about how like Bitcoin and stuff has been around and, you know, blockchain has been around for over a decade at this point. Right. Um, and like still now, like, you know, it looks a lot, I don't know, to me, just from the outside, it looks very similar to what it did back then.  It's like, it's like, um, a bunch of people, very excited about it and what it means, and this kind of like vague way, um, that like seems like, you know, it'll pan out in the future, but we're not quite sure how yet. And like, I'm wondering if the big, um, I'm wondering if the thing that like blockchain is actually successful at is in, um, being very like evocative to  a certain type of person, um, making a certain type of, you know, developer or a tech person, like feel a certain way. Like I wonder if that's the main success of blockchain, because that seems to be like, mostly what I'm seeing is like a bunch of people, you know, excited a bunch of people. Um, I don't know, like, like wanting to discuss the future of things and you know, being smart about it. And it's like, I wonder if that, um, that process is the whole reason that it stuck around. I don't  know.Ben: It's good, good point.Josh: There's definitely some interesting stuff out there. Um, and some very, I mean, like, I think it's undeniable that there are some very people that have thought all this stuff up, like yeah. But yeah, I don't know. You're right. It's, it's been around a lot. Like the, it seems like the adoption curve as much longer on this one. If, if it is going to be the, you know, the next big thing, I don't know. It does. I don't know. It'll be interesting.  But I figured in the meantime, like keeping, keeping an eye on, let's just try to learn more about it. But, um, I'm not really the, I try to avoid situations where I just like dive in and become a like true believer. So I'm, I'm learning from afar.Ben: I'll just go buy some GME. That'll go to fix.Starr: I dunno. I'm just going to go for  AMC, myself. Like the movies, like the movies have been around forever.Ben: Well, confession time I actually bought some AMC. Oh yeah. When the whole GME thing was going crazy and AMC got part of it. I went and bought some AMC. Cause I'm like, you know what, thinking about it. It's like, I wasn't really interested in the main stock thing, but I was thinking, okay, pandemics going to go away some point, right. People are gonna get back out and they're going to go to movies again. Right. It's going to be, and I'm actually, I think I'm doing pretty good on the whole AMC purchase.  We'll see how it goes. Pandemic didn't end yet, but I can still close the fingers.Josh: I mean, as a futurist, I do expect more things to become MIMA fide. So if you can like predict those trends, then go, you know, get in early because, uh, everything's going to be a meme on the blockchain. Eventually.Ben: That's a good thing. Our business is based on a meme now. We're, we're, we're totally with it.Josh: Yeah. All right. We're finally with it on the whole meme thing.Starr: Well, as the present test, I think you should just enjoy it while you can.Josh: You mean all the mains or I don'tStarr: Really know. I just want to get, it seemed like a pithy thing to sayBen: It's apropos. Yeah. Yeah.Josh: Well, we discussed like, no, like I think we, I think we actually discussed like nothing  related to the business this time and that is, you know, that's moving forward.Ben: This is our Seinfeld episode, the episode aboutJosh: Speed. Oh, speaking of Seinfeld, we finished the last, the final episode of Seinfeld, um, that like a couple nights ago. And it like, cause we've been like Kayla and I have been like going through it, like for like years at this point, like just slowly, like, cause it's not every night you want to watch Seinfeld.  Like it's, it's gotta be like a Seinfeld night. So we finally, like, we didn't realize we were like at the end. Um, and it was kind of a, it was a little bittersweet moment kind of likeStarr: At the end of real Seinfeld when it aired. So, and you just heard that green day song starts swelling. It's something I'm predictive of your life. I know. So enjoy it while you can enjoy it while you can.Starr: You've been listening to founder quest. If you want to give us a review, go to wherever you do that and do that. I don't know. I've never been given a podcast or review, to be honest. I don't know how you do it. Um, so I may just be sending you out to nowhere. Um, and yeah, if you're interested in writing for us, we are usually looking for authors and stuff for a blog. Um, check out  honeybadger.io forward slash blog and look for the right press link and learn all about, you know, all about that. And we will see you next week. See ya. See ya. Bye.

Show notes:Links:Snohomish Centennial trailIndie Hackers AMAIntro CRMFull transcript:Starr:All right. Welcome back. Welcome back, everybody. So we took a little break. We're going to have her hot vax summer, but that-Josh:Hot vax summer.Starr:It turns out that was the mirage. It turns out that was a mirage.Josh:Well, it did reach 112 degrees in Portland. So it was hot.Starr:There you go. Yeah. The summer never existed. It was just an illusion caused by our overwhelming thirst for lots of things.Josh:Mirage.Ben:Well, there were a couple of weeks there that I thought, "Yeah. This is going to work out. And then Delta.Starr:Yeah. It was a couple of nice weeks, wouldn't it?Ben:Yeah. It was. It was.Starr:Except for the panic about, "Oh, crap. I need to learn how to deal with people again."Josh:Wouldn't it be wonderful when we can just look back on those two weeks and just remember those last good two weeks?Ben:Yeah. Went 112 in Portland. That's pretty bad. It got to 116 in my garage.Starr:Yeah.Ben:It's pretty warm.Josh:Yeah. That's like melt some things if you're not careful.Ben:I did not know this until well, at the beginning of the pandemic, that there was actually a special class of freezer called the garage freezer because at the beginning of the pandemic I wanted to have a freezer in my garage. I'm like, "Okay. I'm just going to go to Home Depot and buy a freezer." Oh, no, no, no, no. You can't just buy a freezer to put in your garage. You have to have a garage freezer to put it in your garage. So we have a garage freezer and even with 116 in the garage, the stuff stayed frozen. So I guess it actually works.Josh:Nice. Yeah. My freezer survived as well.Starr:I mean, not having a garage freezer in your garage is almost as bad as wearing white after labor day, or is it before labor day? I forget.Josh:I don't know. I never wear white.Starr:I just don't wear white.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Yeah.Starr:Stains too easily.Josh:I just always dress like I'm going to a funeral.Starr:All right. So today's going to be a little bit of a short episode. So we should probably get to the content.Ben:I thought we were already in the content.Starr:I know our reader.Josh:Yeah. It might be short. I don't know.Starr:Oh, we are?Josh:Our podcasts tend to have a mind of their own.Ben:That's true.Starr:Well, that's true. But we've got this Ask Me Anything schedule.Josh:Oh, yeah.Starr:20 minutes from now.Josh:Well, the great thing about asynchronous ask me anything is that they're asynchronous so you can post them even while you're on a podcast and answer the questions whenever you want.Starr:Yeah. Maybe you can, but my brain does not work that way.Josh:Oh, I've got it all queued up.Starr:I've got a one track mind.Josh:It's just a button press. We're locked and loaded.Starr:Oh, you're like Kramer. You've got the button.Josh:No. I'm ready to go.Starr:Sell sell sell!Josh:So yeah. At 10:30, we're recording this podcast. It's 10:08 right now. Pacific. And we're going to be doing an ask me anything AMA on the indie hackers forums.Starr:Yes. And it's a last minute affair as of 20 minutes ago. I didn't have an indie hackers invite code. We're running around scrambling.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Yeah. Ben wanted to try a new podcast recording software, and I'm just like, "No. I can't handle this amount of change in my life right now."Josh:We need to title this episode, live from the indie hackers backstage, by the way.Josh:[crosstalk]Starr:Oh, yeah. I don't know if you like a live album.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Okay.Josh:We're doing it live.Starr:Well, so Ben suggested, when you talk about one work thing and one vacation thing we did. And I guess, I'll start because I didn't actually have a vacation. I just got sick a lot, which I didn't get COVID, but there was some sort of bug that was going around and I got it and I was out for a couple of weeks. And so I guess that was my vacation. I don't know. I just played a lot of Diablo III.Josh:That's cool.Starr:Yeah.Ben:We got our worst vacations in Diablo III.Josh:Yeah. We got away for a few days. We went to this lake up north of Spokane in Washington and just five nights or something. But on the trip there, we're looking at our friends who were already up there, sent us the fire map of Washington. And we are traveling, literally our destination is in the middle of six fires.Starr:Oh no.Josh:We're like, "Should we be turning around?" I don't know. But it turned out all right. We breathe too much smoke the first couple of days, but it cleared up and-Starr:Yeah. After the first couple of days you hardly notice it.Josh:I only got a minor headache.Starr:Your nerves just die. The nerves in your lungs.Josh:Yeah.Ben:It's okay. We have good health insurance.Josh:I'm an ex smoker. So I'll just tack it on, it's just like adding a couple of days.Ben:It's like getting that upgrade package when you're buying a $30,000 car. And it's like, "What's another thousand dollars?Josh:Yeah. I've already got the risk.Ben:Yeah. I stayed closer to home. I read a bunch of books and I got out for a nice bike ride, went to the Snohomish Centennial trail. So it starts in Snohomish and it goes up through Arlington and it's rails to trail conversion. So there used to be railroad tracks there, but now it's a paved trail. And the thing that's neat though, they have a bunch of trail heads and a few of them have the recreations of the old train stations. So it's like, you can act like you're getting on board that train and actually getting on-Josh:Oh, that's nice. Really nice.Ben:Yeah.Josh:That's cool.Ben:That's a lot of fun. Let's see, a work thing that I did. It's a blur.Josh:Yeah.Ben:I probably migrated something somewhere at some point. And back-filled something-Josh:You were busy.Ben:Yeah.Josh:Yeah. You did a lot.Ben:Yeah. I can't remember what I did.Starr:Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things, right? We're working with that sales consultancy, what is it? Intro CRM people?Ben:Yeah. Did do that.Starr:Have you done some outreach? You got some replies even?Ben:Yeah. Yeah. It's been kind of a mixed bag. So I've gotten some replies, but also the outbound stuff has not really been all that productive. So I'm questioning my life choices at this point.Starr:Have you had any overt hostility though?Ben:No overt hostility.Starr:Oh, you're not pushing hard enough then. You want your OH metric to be at least 10%. At least 10%, you want death threats.Ben:I will take that under advisement.Starr:Okay. That's how you know you're really-Josh:Really selling it.Starr:Yeah. I would say coffee's for closers, but you don't drink coffee. So there you go. Oh, cool. On my end, I don't know. We published our first batch of Honeybadger intelligence reports and I don't know. Loyal listeners might remember from last time, I mean, if you don't remember how loyal are you and how much should I even trust you, but yeah. You might remember that we were working on these things. Basically, they are quarterly reports for a certain programming language where if you kind of need to keep an eye on, I don't know. Front-end JavaScript, but you don't want to just inhale the feed of news that's constantly coming out, you can just look at this beautiful quarterly report. And we are publishing them quarterly now on our blog. And the first batch went out three weeks late, maybe a month late, I don't know. I didn't give myself enough time to get them ready for publication. And then I got sick for two weeks and just could barely crawl to the computer. So I'm sorry. I'll do better next time.Josh:If that's you're going to say, if you don't want to inhale the whatever weekly newsfeed, you can inhale it once a month or once a quarter. Just all.Starr:Well, no. We're not just collating everything together.Starr:[crosstalk].Starr:We're concatenating together.Josh:It's like a curation of curation.Starr:Yeah. We're not just a pending three months worth of Hacker News together. We're going in and applying some real intelligence to it. We have real domain experts.Josh:Editorial.Starr:Curating.Josh:Occasionally?Starr:Yes. Providing you the choicest morsels.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:Hand crafted morsels of information.Starr:Yeah. Maybe I should be doing these outreach emails.Ben:Yeah. I think so.Ben:I've got the wrong person writing this stuff.Starr:Yeah. They'd be like, "Are these people even professionals?"Josh:Well, that should be obvious from our website.Starr:Yes.Josh:I'll let you decide which way that goes.Ben:Wow. I've been sitting here while you're talking, thinking, what did I do? I'm like, "This is not good. If I can't remember doing anything useful for the past three months, that's probably a sign that I'm doing the wrong things."Starr:I mean, it could just be, you did a lot, Ben. I can remember things you've done. Can we got set up in a new compliance automated thing?Ben:Oh, yeah. Then the compliance-Starr:Yeah. An automated compliance thing. So you don't have to juggle all that stuff manually.Ben:Yeah. We got our SOC 2 type two report done. So we're legit now. We're officially doing the things that we said we would do.Starr:We're enterprise.Ben:Yeah. Full on enterprise.Josh:That's amazing.Ben:Yeah. And it wasn't a particularly painful process. I mean, it wasn't pleasant, but yeah. We survived.Starr:My favorite part of that was that, so as part of this automated security, your automated SOC 2 compliance stuff, all of the employees I guess, have to do mandatory security training once a year now. And it's this automated quiz where you have to read something and then it asks you questions. So it was a really weird big business moment, where I just felt, okay. I'm watching this training video. It should have 50s music in the background of it. And I hate to admit that I got stuck on the first question for 10 minutes. For 10 minutes. Because it was an easy question, but it was one of those things where it's like, "What's the correct answer? Choose one or more." And the correct answer was all of them. But for some reason, I had selected them all with my keyboard and that wasn't good enough. I had to click on them to show I really meant it because hackers generally use keyboards. So they're not really trustworthy devices.Starr:Yeah.Josh:Starr it was like a JavaScript bug.Starr:So eventually, I literally tried every combination. Eventually, I was just like, "Okay. I'm just going to try the first one again," and it worked. So there you are. There you are.Ben:I can't believe you're giving away the answers to our security questions on the podcast. That's a breach of security.Starr:Yeah. I mean, I think our security questions have some security vulnerabilities if, you can manually brute force them. You have four binary options. That's what? Four factorial combinations? You can knock that out in an hour.Ben:Starr is hacking the mainframe.Starr:I am hacking the planet.Josh:That's how Starr passed the security test.Starr:Yeah. That's also how I got such a great score on the SAT, by the way. You just take it, I don't know. 128 factorial times and then you just brute force it.Josh:Nice. How long did that take you?Starr:I don't know. I still haven't graduated from high school.Josh:I sort of graduated from high school.Starr:Well, you can tell you've been away for a while. Because I just have all this bullshit that I've saved up for you all, and it's just all coming out now.Ben:So I was surprised to learn. I don't know why this surprised me, but it surprised me nonetheless, when we had our all hands meeting recently that we have three Honeybadger employees that have children starting kindergarten this year.Starr:Oh, my God. Yes.Ben:That's pretty wild.Starr:It's pretty terrifying. It's pretty terrifying. I'm glad that I live in Seattle. You guys don't. Josh and Kevin don't, but I mean, you all live in fairly reasonable places where governors aren't banning masks in school.Josh:Yeah.Ben:As they themselves are going to get advanced treatments for their COVID infections. Yeah.Starr:Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's okay. We love you Texas. We just don't love your governor.Ben:Speaking of Texas. So this random tidbit I saw the other day, Austin, Texas of course, you know the housing market has been crazy. As far as prices go over the past several months, people have been overbidding regularly on how to just be able to-Josh:Oh, I read that.Josh:A hundred grand?Ben:Yeah. So Austin, Texas.Josh:That's what I'm asking.Ben:A hundred grand over asking price. So you have a $400,000 list price, but you actually got to pay $500,000 to get the house. That's crazy.Starr:That is wild.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Yeah. I had to drop off my car at the mechanic to get its normal service and I was walking by, and this was this morning and there's this kind of older condo building. It's not great looking or anything. And it's two bedroom condo, 900 square feet is now selling for the same price that I bought my single-family house with big yard and everything three blocks away. And that was five or six years ago? Six years ago?Ben:Crazy stuff.Starr:It's bizarre. Totally. I don't know. It's the sort of thing like it feels kind of gross even. Just because I was able to scrape together a down payment for a house, suddenly I get, I don't know. A hundred grand a year extra just in appreciation.Josh:You just hit a jackpot.Starr:Yeah. But it's just like, okay. I literally did nothing to deserve that. And meanwhile, people who could use that or I mean, I could use it, but I'm not in dire straits. I don't know. It's just like, "Wow, this whole system is just kind of backwards and weird."Ben:Yeah. It's to the point I'm getting unsolicited offers to buy my house, right?Starr:Oh, me too.Ben:I'm getting these letters in the mail like, "Hi, I'm Bob and my wife is Alice and we'd like to buy your house." And I'm like looking at the letters, "Is this is really an automated thing or do they really write this by the hand?"Starr:I've had people call me on the phone, in person.Ben:They called you?Starr:Yeah. They called me. Three houses on my block have been demolished in the past two months, three older houses, one of them was just really messed up. But two of them were these small houses on big lots. And essentially what happened is a developer bought almost every house on the opposite side of the street from me and is now basically filling up the lots with as many units as they can. So I think they're going to end up with like 18 units out of these five or six houses, which is fine. I guess. I don't mind density and everything, but it's just so wild because it's like, "Oh, it finally caught up with us." Because for a long time we were just over the edge where things were nice, we were just one block over from the nice stuff. And it finally caught up with us. So we're going to have to move now because we're not fancy enough for the neighborhood anymore.Josh:Yeah. Just cash out.Ben:Yeah. Move to Kansas.Starr:Yeah. I mean, that's the problem though. It's like, "Okay. Great." I get all this appreciation, but if I ever want to get a new house, it's like, "Okay. I've got to pay those new prices."Ben:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Josh:Yeah. We've looked at that too, or you could sell and rent for a few years and see if anything happens. That would probably be a gamble.Starr:That would be a really bad gamble I think. I mean, I don't know.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Yeah.Josh:Considering no markets decline anymore.Starr:I mean, they, they could decline, but you're trying to time it.Josh:Time the housing the market?Starr:Yeah.Starr:Maybe it'll decline, but yeah.Ben:This got me thinking, real estate agents, they want you to trade up, right? You buy your starter house and then you buy your bigger house and then eventually you downsize again because hey, why not have another transaction that a real estate agent can take a commission on, right? And it just got me thinking, why don't we have that for businesses? Why can't you trade up your business, right?Josh:Like trade it?Ben:Yeah. It's like, "Honeybadger, that's a nice little business. Why don't you trade it on up to a bigger business?Starr:So we sell Honeybadger and then by a larger business.Ben:Right. Right. Like that. Rolled into a down payment for a bigger business, yeah.Josh:Yeah.Starr:I'm not sure if you're very good at that.Josh:I love it.Starr:I don't know.Ben:Maybe this is a new marketing thing we can try. We can figure out new business models.Josh:Because we're getting trade-in program like the private equity firms.Ben:You're slapping the top of your business. You can fit so many customers in here.Josh:Might be our best bit yet.Ben:Well, I guess, we better get ready for our ask me anything session. Got a crack the knuckles and get ready to type.Starr:Crack the old knuckles.Josh:Almost time.Starr:All right. Okay. I will sign us off. All right. So this has been FounderQuest back from hot vax summer, back from vacation or being sick or whatever we call it these days. If you want to give us a review on Apple podcasts, whatever they call it, go for it. If you want to look up this AMA we're about to do on Indie Hackers, we recommend that and yeah. Otherwise, just stay cool, stay safe, and we will see you next week.Ben:Catch you later.Josh:See you.Starr:Bye.

Mike Isaacson: Da j00z! [Theme song] Nazi SS UFOsLizards wearing human clothesHinduism's secret codesThese are nazi lies Race and IQ are in genesWarfare keeps the nation cleanWhiteness is an AIDS vaccineThese are nazi lies Hollow earth, white genocideMuslim's rampant femicideShooting suspects named Sam HydeHiter lived and no Jews died Army, navy, and the copsSecret service, special opsThey protect us, not sweatshopsThese are nazi lies Mike: At the core of nazi lies is antisemitism. Since the Second World War it has disguised itself in many guises–Rothschilds, Soros, Bildebergs, lizard people. At its core is an all-powerful entity controlling the masses and aiming to destroy the nation through the corruption of culture and politics, which remains at the heart of fascist conspiracy theory. One of the ur-texts of Jew hatred in the 21st century is David Duke's book “Jewish Supremacism,” which makes the claim that not only do Jews control the world, but that our religion teaches us to do so. Today, we're joined by Ben Siegel who has his master's in Religion, the Hebrew Bible, and Ancient Near Eastern Studies from the Claremont School of Theology. (Wow, that's a mouthful.) Welcome to The Nazi Lies Podcast, Ben. Ben Siegel: Thanks for having me Mike. I'm grateful for the opportunity to trash a Jew hater's biblical scholarship. Mike: [laughs] Very good. Okay, so before we get into Duke's book, let's talk a bit about how Judaism works, because it's very unlike Christianity. Can you give us a rundown of how Jewish law and Jewish morality works? Ben: Sure. I'll do my best. Now the Jewish legal system, known in Hebrew as halakha, is a comprehensive framework that informs the behaviors of religious, and also frequently secular, Jews. It takes as its starting point the written text, the Torah, the biblical books of Genesis through Deuteronomy, from which it derives 613 mitzvot, meaning laws or commandments, as authoritative God-given instruction on how to live an observant Jewish life. So from those texts, considered the written Torah, what's called the oral Torah is derived. This comprises successive centuries worth of interpretation of the written Torah by rabbis. The earliest of these is the Mishnah, which was compiled early in the second century of the common era, and the Gemara, rabbinical commentary on the Mishnah that was put together between the second and fifth centuries CE. These commentaries were collected to produce the Talmud. Now one in the Galilee region of Israel between 300 and 350 CE, known as the Jerusalem Talmud, and the second far more extensive Talmud compiled in Babylon in about 450 to 500 CE. This is the Babylonian Talmud. This is the one that people tend to cite most. It's really these long, extensive discourses weighing legal arguments on virtually every topic that was relevant to Jews during these periods, from personal and communal religious devotion to economic regulations to laws concerning marriage, dietary restrictions, relations with non-Jews; you name it. Now the Talmud is upheld to this day by most Jewish communities across the world as the basis for living an appropriate Jewish life in accordance with halakha and in accordance with God's will and vision for the world. Halakha informs Jewish ethics to a great deal as much as it undergirds legal and political concerns–a concern for ethical treatment of one's community and one's neighbors, stemming from the collective memory of slavery in Egypt, an ethics of solidarity, really, righteousness, compassion, and justice, in effect. Mike: Okay, so Duke takes aim at our self-description as the chosen people. This is commonly misinterpreted. What does it mean when the Jews say we are the chosen people? Ben: As the old saying goes, “How odd of God to choose the Jews.” So there's this notion that God selected the Israelites for a particular theological mission, to live according to His laws, and to be a light unto nations, inspiring other people through their example. But there's also this idea that the Jews chose God. That Abraham and his descendents embraced monotheism through a special and unique relationship with the deity. Chosenness in this sense isn't indicative of inherent ethnic or racial superiority, as Duke argues. I'd feel safe saying he's projecting his own white supremacist views onto the Jews here. Mike: You don't say. Ben: [laughs] Yeah, I do.  Mike: Okay, so another thing that David Duke derides is our holidays. Specifically, he describes Purim and Pesach as a celebration of the slaughter of gentiles, which I find absolutely laughable. Do you want to clear that one up? Ben: This would absolutely be hilarious if it weren't so malicious. Pesach celebrates the liberation of the Israelite people from slavery and oppression in Egypt. Recalling the ten plagues during the seder does recognize the suffering inflicted upon the Egyptians to make this happen. But this isn't a joyful moment. It's typically somber. The recitation of each plague is followed by dripping a drop of wine from our cups onto our plates to signify how we ourselves are diminished by the Egyptians' suffering. There's also a similarly warped misinterpretation of Purim going on here, where we celebrate the prevention of genocide against us. So in the Purim story, Haman had ordered the Jews put to death. The Megillah Esther makes it clear that the 70,000+ Persians killed at the end of the book are those sent by Haman to slaughter the Jews. And the Jews were only able to defend themselves because king Ahasuerus gives them permission to pick up swords. And to be frank, Mike, defense against genocide seems to a pretty legitimate cause for merrymaking.  Mike: Yeah, no, for sure. It's a really fun holiday if you've ever celebrated it, you know. It's a lot of dress up… I've heard it described as basically a combination of Halloween and New Years all wrapped into one. It's really fun.  Ben: Sure, if you like to drink and scream, Purim is the holiday for you. Mike: There you go. [laughs] Okay, so now let's get into the nitty gritty. So, David Duke cites a whole bunch of scriptures to make the Jews out to be haters of all things goyishe, or non-Jewish, with scriptural references that appear to justify unscrupulous behavior towards them. First of all, before we get into that, what does the word “goy” mean? Ben: Well it would be prudent to acknowledge that the term “goy” changes meaning slightly over time. In the biblical text, it means nation or people, not nation in the modern sense of Westphalian nation-states, but more as a homogenous ethnic identity. The Israelites were recognized as a goy here. Most notably, Exodus 19 where God promises Abraham that he will make his people “goy gadol,” a great people, Exodus 19:6. As we enter into the rabbinic period, where the Jews in the diaspora are negotiating Jewish identity as a minority population, goy predominantly takes on the meaning of non-Jew as a distinguishing marker. This interpretation of “goy” has persisted to this day, and is perhaps the most commonly recognized usage of the term. I have seen discussions among antisemites who misinterpret it as meaning “cattle,” based on connotations in Talmudic texts. But these texts offer a strict binary worldview where “Jew” is seen as akin to human, whereas non-Jews are aligned with animals. I think it's important to make the distinction that this framework is a legal one not necessarily a political one. Post exilic diaspora Jews did not have the kind of social power needed to foster political programs that affected the disenfranchisement of other groups typically associated with rhetorics of dehumanization.  Mike: Okay, so kind of on that point, Duke points to a number of decontextualized passages from Jewish scripture which describe gentiles in various negative ways: barbarians, animals, animal-fuckers. And I've got a few passages here which I've provided to you in advance. So there's Gemara Kiddushin 68a, Yebamoth (and correct me on any of these pronunciations) Yebamoth 98a, Baba Mezia 114a-b, Abodah Zarah 22a-b, and Baba Mezia 108b. Can you give us a little exegesis? Ben: I'd be happy to, but first I want to talk about how Duke sourced these texts. There's been some commentary on him plagiarizing Kevin McDonald who is an evolutionary psychologist working out of Cal State University-Long Beach. He uses the same arguments and the citations. But it also appears that Duke took many of the translations of these texts from a book by Elizabeth Dilling, who was a far-right political activist in the 1930s, noted antisemite, who went to Nazi Germany and spoke very highly of what she saw there. So with these translations that he's using, I think it's important that we take it with an enormous grain of salt, first of all. Mike: Right. Ben: But also the thing I've noticed most about non-Jews who rage against the Talmud is that they haven't read the damn thing. And frankly, I haven't read all of it either. It's an enormous body of text. And in that body of text there are, you know, rabbis disagreeing with each other. So one view may be held, and the exact opposite view is going to be upheld a line down. Just worth noting for when we're looking at these texts that are obviously cherry-picked. Mike: Right. Ben: The first one you mentioned, Kiddushin 68a, it's from a tractate that deals with rules pertaining to marriage and engagement laws. Now what Duke says about this is the Talmud denotes gentiles as animals. So here it's forbidding the betrothal of an Israelite to a Canaanite maidservant. One thing, there's no Canaanites in third century Persia at this time, so this is purely a hypothetical situation. But it's really this legal justification for not marrying non-Jews because of the potential for them to influence a Jew's worship in a negative way, so that they won't follow halakha. And there's definitely a discussion here of identifying them as like an animal, but it's not a similar dehumanization that we see in typical nazi rhetoric of like “Jews are cockroaches” or “Jews are vermin.” It's like, here is this category of thing that is not us, and we cannot mix with that. Does that make sense? Mike Yeah, I guess. Does the issue of her being a maidservant matter in a subordinate position to the person?  Ben: Some rabbis argue yes; some rabbis argue no. But really it's more that who she is, based on this identity, is making the betrothal ineffective. It's not considered valid. Mike: Okay, so like– Ben: Yeah. Mike: Go ahead. Ben: No, go right ahead. Mike: Okay, yeah continuing right along, let's go to Yebamoth 98a? Ben: Yeah, Yebamoth deals with rules of yibbum. This is what's commonly known as levarite marriage, where the brother of a man who died without children is permitted and encouraged to marry the widow. What Duke has this translated as is that all gentile children are animals. It doesn't say anything of the sort here. It's saying that the children of gentiles don't have a father. They don't have a patrilege. Like the offspring of a male gentile is considered no more related to him than the offspring of donkeys or horses. It's just a way of saying that the rabbis don't care who the kid's dad is. It's like, they couldn't be bothered. Mike: I see. Ben: They're not interested in the patrilege of non-Jews. They're really more concerned with Jewish family ties. Mike: Okay, so moving along, there's two passages from Baba Metzia, one is 114a-b and one is 108b. Ben: Mmhmm. Baba Metzia discusses civil matters. That is property, law of usury, other issues such as lost property and damages done to it. So the issue here is again, categorizing– Duke takes issue with the categorizing of goyim as non-human. And again, it comes down to the same thing. It's less that they are not recognized as human, and more that it is an issue of ritual purity because they don't adhere to the same religious standards. Therefore, they necessarily can't contaminate certain Jewish sacred spaces. Mike: That's probably– Ben: And– Mike: Go ahead. Ben: Yeah, sorry go ahead. Mike: I was gonna say, it's probably also worth noting that like many Jews, I would venture even to say most Jews, probably don't follow a lot of these laws. [laughs] Ben: Yeah, many of them aren't even aware of them. You know, you can spend your entire life studying these texts and maybe come across it once. You know, there are thousands of these tractates. Mike: And last in this category was Abodah Zarah 22a-b. Ben: Mmhmm. [laughs] This one's funny. Duke says gentiles prefer sex with cows. What the text is actually saying is that the animal of a Jew is more appealing to gentiles than their own wives. [laughs] So, I don't know if this intentionally, you know, throwing some shade gentiles and their own marriage relations, but it seems more in keeping with a concern that's held by the Talmudic sages of how do you ensure that an animal that you are sacrificing is ritually pure. That means it has no blemishes; it is handicapped in any way; but very importantly, that it has not had any sexual relations with anybody. So Abodah Zarah, literally meaning “foreign worship” or “strange service,” it deals with how to live with people who don't adhere to the same religious convictions. And the concern of beastiality is kind of a big, overarching theme in this text to the point that there are many discussions of concern about whether or not you can purchase a sacrificial animal from a goy. Some rabbis say no; some say yes. Interestingly enough, there is one narrative in the text, where a goy named Dama– The rabbis go to him, and purchase a red heifer which is like a really big omen in the bible. It's like huge. That's like primo sacrifice. And he is upheld as a righteous goy and as someone who would never shtup his cow. So what's really interesting here is that you've got these two different voices in the text that are both preserved as authoritative. One, there is the concern that the goy will engage in beastiality. The other is this one goy Dama who is upheld as an example of righteousness in regards to being able to buy, you know, a sacrificial animal for him. Of course, Duke isn't going to look at this text because it doesn't serve his overall purpose as vilifying the Jewish people as anti-goy. Mike: And before we continue, I want to inform our listeners that shtup is a Yiddish word for “having sex with.” Ben: Yeah, literally it means “push,” but yeah, it means sex. Mike: Alright so, Duke also makes the claim that there are different laws that Jews follow when it comes to dealing with the goyim. So he specifically points to Gittin 57a, Abadoh Zarah 67b, Sanhendrin 52b, Sanhedrin 105a-b and 106a-b. Can you explain what's going on in those passages? Ben: Sure, so my understanding of his gripe with Gittin 57a is what is the punishment for Jesus in the next world, saying that he will be boiled in excrement. He's going to be punished in boiling poop, and that anyone who mocks the word of the sages will be sentenced to boiling excrement. This was his sin, as he mocked the words of the sages. And the Gemara comments come and see the difference between these sinners of Israel and the prophets of the nations of the world as Balaam, who was a prophet, wished Israel harm whereas Jesus the Nazarene, who was a Jewish sinner, sought their wellbeing. So there is this, kind of– There's some antagonism towards Jesus in the text because of its function as– Jesus's function and Christianity's function as a counter-claim to the inheritance of Abraham and of Isaac and Jacob. So there's some theological competition going on here. Mike: And what about Abodah Zarah 67b? Ben: Mmhmm. “The halakha from the case of gentiles that require purging. Vessels that gentiles used for cooking that the Torah requires that one purge through fire and ritually purify before they may be used by Jews.” You know, he seems to be indicating that– Duke seems to be indicating that the text is saying that goyim are dirty. But this isn't an argument for, like, hygienic cleaning. The ancient Israelites and Talmudic sages didn't have a germ theory of disease. What they're talking about is purifying these vessels for religious purposes, specifically. They have to be rededicated for their sacred use because they may have come in contact with forbidden food, with non-kosher food. Mike: Right, so this is about the laws of kashrut, right? Ben: Yeah, precisely. And again this is Abodah Zarah which is all about how do we do our religion properly with all of these other influences around us. Mike: Right, okay so Sanhendrin 52b. Ben: Yeah, this is another Jesus one. So Duke says that the person being punished in this text is Jesus, and he sees this as an anti-Jesus text. But the text doesn't mention Jesus whatsoever. It's a general rule for capital punishment by strangulation which is outlined in Leviticus. So this is one of your big nazi lies. He doesn't mention– They don't mention Jesus here. Mike: Is this one of the ones where he mentions Balaam or something? Ben: I believe so. Mike: Okay, can you talk about who Balaam is, because Duke misidentifies him as Jesus. Ben: Yeah he does that a lot. So in the book of Numbers, Balaam is a prophetic figure, identified in the text as a false prophet, who goes to send a curse against the Israelite people, and he is himself cursed for it and put to death. So he's kind of like this figure of those who would seek the destruction the Jewish people. He's a big bad. Mike: Right, and since he's in the book of Numbers which is the Torah, right? Ben: Yeah. Mike: Yeah, I mean, that would mean that this is, like, well before Jesus's time, right? Ben: Absolutely. Mike: Like there's no way this would have been Jesus. Ben: For sure. Granted, there are certain Christian interpreters of the text who see Hebrew bible references to Jesus throughout. Mike: Right. Ben: So they kind of see Jesus as foreshadowed in so much. Mike: Alright so, moving on, Sanhendrin 105a-b? Ben: So this one's interesting because it says that Balaam was a diviner by using his penis. [both laugh] And he's one who engaged in beastiality with his donkey. So what Duke takes to be a condemnation of Jesus, because he's misidentified Jesus with Balaam, is really kind of like textbook Talmudic condemnation of a big bad goy. Now here's a guy who sought the destruction of the Jewish people. In the book of Numbers he's got this talking donkey who prevents him– who tries to stop him from going forward with his mission. And we know that he was bad because, according to the Talmud, he had sex with his donkey. There's this major preoccupation with bestiality in the Talmud, and it is weird as hell. But it's there, and we've got to deal with it. [laughs] Mike: Okay, and Sanhendrin 106a-b. Ben: Again, this one's not about Jesus, but rather about Balaam who has been misidentified with Jesus. I think this is– this kind of misidentification is just indicative of Duke not doing his homework. My understanding is that he took these from Dilling, and he never fact-checked to see if, you know, this is what the text says or this is what the text identifies. You know, this is bad scholarship on his part which is probably to be expected from this guy who defrauded his own his own white supremacist organization and has a fake degree. Mike: Right, and he even says in the book that he's not doing anything original, that it's just collected from other sources. Ben: Right. Mike: Well, since we're on the subject of Jesus, we may as well go with the rest of the passages that I have here. So Sanhendrin 90a. I'm kind of skipping around here. Ben: Yeah this one's all about prohibition against idol worship. And you said this one is Jesus-related? Mike: That's what he said, yeah. About Christianity and Jesus, yeah. Ben: I don't find much to do with Jesus in this text. Jesus isn't mentioned in this one. It's primarily about idol worship and people who prophesize with regards to it. Maybe he's trying to say that, like, the preoccupation with idol worship is a condemnation of Christianity, but I'm just not seeing where he's getting Jesus out of this. Mike: Okay then, on that same subject Shabbat 116a. Ben: Yeah, holy books in Babylonian temples. Now is this the one where he says a goy can't read the text? Mike: It might be, yeah. Or a Christian can't read the text. Ben: Yeah, oh no, this is a really particular one. Again this one is just– There's a lot of rhetorical violence against those who do the religion improperly or don't treat the sacred texts as they should. You know, these are practices and artifacts that are very important to the Jewish people, so they hold them in very high regard. Mike: So I guess moving along, Duke refers to a number of passages in the Bible that he takes to mean that Jews are preoccupied with racial integrity. (Projection much?) He points specifically to Sanhendrin 59a, Deuteronomy 7:2-6, Ezra 9:1-2 and 9:12, Leviticus 20:24, and Nehemiah 13:3. So what do these passages say and what do they actually mean? Ben: With Sanhedrin 59a, which Sanhedrin primarily deals with criminal law, it says that “A gentile who engages in Torah study is liable to receive the death penalty. As it is stated: ‘Moses commanded us a law, an inheritance of the congregation of Jacob.'” This is from Deuteronomy 33:4. “Indicating that it is an inheritance for us, and not for them.” So there is one sage, a rabbi Yokhanon who is arguing that goyim who study Torah, you know, they're liable to be put to death. You know, they expose themselves to capital punishment. He's arguing this because they view the Torah with such high esteem; it is their most sacred text. They want to preserve it. Now this text is followed a line or two down by a counterargument. It says, “You have therefore learned that even a gentile who engages Torah study is considered like a high priest.” So you've got one argument saying that a goy who studies Torah is liable to be put to death, and another that says that they have an incredible status, that studying Torah gives them very high regard. But this again is one of those instances where Duke does not consider that might undermine his central thesis that Jews are bad, are always bad, and will always be bad. Mike: Okay, so what about the Deuteronomy passages? Ben: Deuteronomy is fascinating. We could do a whole discussion of that book in and of itself because it is–Deuteronomy in Greek means “second law”–but it is kind of a later law code that is arguably the result of a very kind of reactionary sect of Israelite theology that does not see coexistence with people who don't worship YHWH as possible. And rhetorically, what they are saying is when the Israelites get to the promised land, they are to commit genocide against the peoples of the land. Don't intermarry with them because that could lead to apostasy, that could lead to illicit worship. You know, their daughters will lead you to serve other gods. The sense here is that Israel is a holy people, God has chosen them to be special unto him, and if they allow this foreign influence to affect them, that will be undermined. Mike: Okay, and what about the Ezra text? Ezra 9:1-2 and 9:12. Ben: Yeah, there's some scholarship to indicate that Ezra and Nehemiah represent one scholarly tradition. So after the Babylonian empire was defeated by the Persian empire, the Persians allowed the community of Israelites that had been taken into exile, the golah community, to return to the land, to rebuild the temple, and to reestablish rule. So one of the concerns of the returning community is this very specific idea that the reason they were exiled in the first place is because God is punishing them for worshipping other gods. And that sense also undergirds the theology of the book of Deuteronomy. So their solution is that, to prevent that from ever happening again, they have to divorce from the non-Israelite wives that they had married that might lead them into temptation. Now this is the view of the returning community, not the community that had stayed in the land of Israel during that time. So these would have been the intelligentsia, the priestly class, the aristocracy, skilled laborers, so it's not a normative view, but it kind of becomes normative because it becomes the dominant voice of the text, if that makes any sense. But they are saying that for the sake not just of religious purity but also to establish power for themselves, you know, the returning community has a claim to power in the land, not just because they have, you know, they have a connection to it where they are before the exile, but they are supported by the Persian imperial power. They're making this new claim of identity and religiosity to assert that power. Mike: Okay and what about Leviticus 20:24? Ben: “You shall inherit their land” (“Them” being the Canaanites.) “that I will give unto you to possess it, a land that flows with milk and honey. I am the Lord your God that separated you from other people.” So this is God telling the Israelites that they will be given the promised land because God has chosen them, has separated them. The word “kodesh,” to be holy, also means separate. So it's really a theological category, not an ethnic one. You know, the Israelites are separate from these people and are given the land because of their adherence to the covenant at Sinai, not because they are of a particular ethnic or racial background. Mike: Okay, so we talked a little bit about kind of the somewhat genocidal tendencies I guess. And so David Duke talks about massacres perpetrated by Jews in the bible. He points to Deuteronomy 20:10-18, Isaiah 34:2-3. and Joshua 6:21 and 10:28-41. And when I mentioned Joshua to you, you kind of rolled your eyes at it. Ben: Yeah. Mike: So I guess let's start with Joshua then. Ben: Yeah, I do. Good. Joshua's a fascinating text. Scholars pretty much agree that it has no, or little to no, basis in historical fact. You know, one of these is that, these texts Joshua 6:21, is the destruction of the city of Jericho which according to archeological records happened several hundred years prior to when this narrative is supposed to have taken place. But what's being discussed here in 21 is the devotion of the city to the Lord, the destruction of every living thing in it. So, you know, this is absolutely a genocidal text. It's a purification of the land by the sword and by flame. So typically in war in the ancient near east, you could take slaves, you could take cattle as war booty. But what is being done here is the destruction of all of that, saying that everything belongs to God, and as such it must be destroyed and sacrificed unto him. But it's also seen as a kind of justice because here are these, for lack of a better word, pagans who stand in the way of the Israelite mission, and who may also tempt the Israelites to turn away from the path of God. So it's absolutely this violent, theologically motivated holy war, genocidal slaughter, maintained in the text. And I do think it's important to wrestle with these notions. You know, whether or not it actually happened, it's still– It's there, and it informs a great deal of thinking. It informed the colonization of the New World, whereby settlers from Europe saw themselves as Israelites and the indigenous people here as Canaanites. Robert Allen Warrior is an indigenous scholar who's done a lot of work on this. But then, the Joshua narrative also informed many of the early Zionists, and they saw themselves as, as Rachel Haverlock called the Joshua generation. Like, Ben Gurion assembled a number of different people to do bible studies on the book of Joshua. It is a text of settler colonialism and can be used to justify that kind of political programme. Mike: Okay so back to Deutero– Ben: If that's what you're trying to do, Joshua is a good place to pull from. Mike: Okay so back to Deuteronomy, 20:10-18. What's being said in there? Ben: “When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open its gates, all the people shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage in battle, lay siege to the city.” And the ban, or kherem, is in effect there. So destroy, destroy, destroy, and leave nothing because everything is for God. It's the same scenario– In this instance, the people in the land are given the opportunity to surrender, otherwise they are subject to the sword. It's very similar to the kind of warfare described in other texts from the ancient near east, whether they're Assyrian or Babylonian. So it's not uncommon to see this kind of siege warfare described, and it's not necessarily unique to the Israelite people. Mike: Right, I mean, yeah, I mean that was one of the things that happened to the Israelite people, at least in engaging the Romans, right? Ben: Yeah, precisely. Mike: Okay, what about Isaiah 34:2-3? Ben: This one's interesting because it's not actually a narrative of slaughter. It's a prophetic oracle delivered against the people of Edom, the Edomites, for betraying the Israelites to the Babylonians and assisting in their imperial endeavors. It's saying that, you know, you will be destroyed. You know, the corpses of your people will lay in the street. So it's not an actual thing that happened. It's part of a type of prophetic literature called oracles against the nations where the prophet of a particular book will condemn a specific people on God's behalf. Keep in mind that the prophets aren't really seen as their own agents. They're the agents of God; they speak God's word. So God through Isaiah is saying, here's what's going to happen to you because of your betrayal. Mike:  Okay, so this next part is probably going to need a trigger warning or something. So there's some really strange passages that he cites about rape and virginity that I honestly haven't looked at because by the time I got to these passages I was just tired of him being wrong every time I checked the passages he cited. So he cites Kethuboth 11b, Sanhedrin 55b and 69a-b, Yebamoth 57b, 58a, and 60b. So let's start with Kethuboth. Ben: Right, yeah, so here he's– The issue is Bath Sheeba, when she gave birth to Solomon, whether or not she was six years old, or whether or not she was an earlier age. It's not saying that six-year-olds are appropriate– or that six is an appropriate age for sexual relations with a girl. It's arguing at what age a child can conceive. Like when is conception possible? And it's saying that because Bath Sheeba gave birth to Solomon when she was six, it's somewhere around that time. Yeah, this whole discourse is really gnarly.  Mike: Okay, so what about Sanhendrin 55b? Ben: So here it's about a girl who is three years and one day whose father has arranged for her to be married, and betrothal is through intercourse. It's concerning the legal status of the intercourse with her, if it's like full-fledged sex. Really here the text is examining forbidden sexual acts that cause ritual impurity and calamity. And prior to this specific quotation is a broader context of unwitting beastiality, like beastiality that you didn't know you did. It's not justifying sex with minors; it says that the act renders the man ritually impure and liable to be put to death. Lucky for the child, I guess lucky, is that they're exempt from execution because they're a minor. Small condolence I guess. Mike: Okay so it's basically saying the opposite of what David Duke said. Ben: Yeah. Mike: Okay, what about 69a-b? Ben: I mean, this is probably a discussion of the legal ramifications of this act. Mike: Yeah this is actually, this says exactly what you were talking about earlier. So “A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband's brother cohabitated with her, she becomes his.” Blah blah blah. Ben: Yeah, because it's Yebamoth– It's Yebamoth, right? Mike: No this is Sanhendrin. Ben: Oh Sanhendrin. So this is, yeah, criminal law. So this is the liability of criminal punishment, but also these rabbis debated everything. What is the likelihood that a three-year-old is going to be married to someone who then dies and then has to be– Again they have the option to be married to their brother so that the dead brother's lineage doesn't end. They're really negotiating, like, every possible eventuality that might happen just in case. You know, all of these are hypothetical situations. And, you know, they're gross. Some of them are just really fucked up. Mike: [laughs] Yeah Jews like to talk about a lot of weird hypotheticals. Alright so now onto the Yebamoth one. So 57b. Ben: Yeah, Yebamoth 57b. This one I've got, “A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired by marriage in coition.” So yeah, the sex act is technically allowed. It's not condoning it. But because three-year-old girls cannot become pregnant, it's still technically forbidden because it's a waste of seed in non-procreative sex. So it's saying that she can't conceive via sexual intercourse, so it's really forbidden because sex in this worldview is not for pleasure; it's purely for procreation. So if you are wasting sperm engaging in this sex act, it's a bad thing. Not going to lie, this one's fucked up. Mike: Yeah, what about 58a? Ben: Um, doesn't say anything about minors. Mike: Really? Ben: Just, yeah, I didn't see anything about minors in this one. Mike: What about rape? Ben: Most likely. Let me just take a closer look. Mike: Or virginity or something? Ben: Yeah, do you have a quote on this one? Mike: Not sure. I mean, I don't have quotes on any of these because again I stopped looking at them. Ben: Yeah, and a lot of it is just like– It's kind of he said, she said. I don't know. I don't take David Duke's reading of these in good faith, and I don't think we can. Mike: This is a weird passage. There's something about “Through betrothal alone a woman is not entitled to eat.” This is so strange. Ben: I mean I would lie if I said that I understood the majority of Talmudic literature. Mike: Right. Ben: You know, people can spend seven years reading this entire work all the way through. The law of tamurah. Mike: Yeah, and, I mean, even– David Duke doesn't even necessarily quote these passages. He just references them. And I guess, like you said, he probably pulls them from other sources without reading them. Ben: Yeah, I– With this, I can't even tell, like, what he's arguing. Like, what is the– What issue is he taking here? Mike: Yeah, I would suggest that our listeners read this passage and try to figure out what the fuck David Duke has a problem with. Ben: Yeah exactly. Yeah [sarcastically] read David Duke's book. You'll have fun. Mike: Yeah, no don't read David Duke's book, but you can read the Talmud, that's pretty good. Ben: Spend seven years reading the whole thing. You can do it, a daf a day. Mike: Alright, do you have any notes on Yebamoth 60b? Ben: So this is where the Gemara cites another ruling related to who is considered a virgin. And it's not condoning sex with a three-year-old. It says that in the event of that happening, she remains a virgin because her hymen grows back. Like if it's through a sex act with an adult man or if her hymen is ruptured by wood. You know, she's still considered a virgin because it grows back. I don't know if that's medically true. Mike: Yeah, I was– Ben: Sounds like bullshit, but the issue here is virginity as it relates to being able to determine paternity in the long run. Mike: Okay, alright, so Judaism has changed a lot since these texts were written. So what can we say about the ethos of Judaism now as it relates to these texts? Ben: Right, obviously most Jews aren't concerned with the majority of the issues we've addressed here today. You know, they don't spend a lot of time thinking about beastiality, thank goodness. But I think if there is a single Jewish ethos, it's an affirmation of being the people of Israel, literally meaning “to wrestle with God,” Yis-ra-el. Engagement in argument over Torah are so central to our people's identity that even secular atheist Jews still contend with these issues. So as many different types of Jews as there are and how many different ways they approach the text, there still profoundly, proudly participating in a longstanding tradition that's engaging with and arguing with the tradition. I think that's the modern Jewish ethos, and it's much the same as the ancient but adapted to the current context: How do we live a good life?  Mike: Word, well Ben Siegel, thank you so much for coming on The Nazi Lies Podcast and taking the time to do the tedious work of debunking David fucking Duke. [both laugh] You can catch Ben on Twitter and Facebook at Anarcho-Judaism. Ben: Mike it has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. [Theme song]

Show notes:Links:Write for usMaybeJosh Pigford Flu dataFull transcript:Ben:And today we don't have Starr, because Starr is on vacation this week, fireside chat.Josh:I will be on vacation next week, and the week after.Ben:Nice.Josh:I don't know if you saw, I extended my vacation.Ben:I didn't see this.Josh:Yeah. So, surprise!Ben:Two weeks back to back. That's a record.Josh:Yeah. I decided I'm feeling it and I don't think a week is going to be enough. So just thought I'd go for it.Ben:Yeah, I get that. I get that. It's funny, I was looking... We started this vacation calendar, recently, since we are looking at transitioning away from Basecamp, where our vacation calendar was, we are now putting a vacation calendar in Google calendar, because we use G Suite for all of our stuff. And I set up this vacation calendar, and I noticed that Starr put one on there, and then Josh put on a vacation and then Kevin put on a vacation. And then, Ben Findley, just week after week after week, it's like everybody's taking a vacation. I was like, all right, so I put myself on vacation.Josh:Yeah, you got to put yourself in there. Yeah.Ben:I did. Yeah. I added myself yesterday, for the week after Ben Findley's vacation.Josh:I don't know if you went and... I went in and just put a bunch of vacations for the rest of the year for-Ben:I saw that.Josh:... myself. Yeah.Ben:That's awesome.Josh:I mean, they might change, but I figured, if I at least put them in there, that'll force me to think about it and decide. Because that's been an ongoing problem, I always wait too long and then, finally, take the vacation when I just desperately need it, and I want to avoid that cycle, like we're supposed to be. This is supposed to be sustainable.Ben:This is a calm company. It means, lots of vacations.Josh:Yeah. We should be calm if we're running a calm company.Ben:I like that idea of putting on these dates tentatively and just planning on it. I might try that.Josh:Yeah. You should just plan them out. Also, yeah, I put our traditionally long winter vacation on there too, which I think is currently the last two weeks of December and the first week of January, which we can always move that around or sometimes we do the Hack week or whatever.Ben:Yeah. I've come to cherish that tradition. I like having that-Josh:It's nice.Ben:Knowing that's going to be downtime. You know?Josh:Yeah.Ben:I mean-Josh:I like the first week of the year off is kind of... there's something about that, where you don't have to go back to work the day after New Year's or whatever. That feels really nice.Ben:I mean, in reality, we're still on call. So if something broke, were going to work, but, yeah, it is nice not having that expectation of showing up and doing actual productive stuff.Josh:Yeah. Yeah. It's the low bandwidth mode.Ben:Yeah. It's also this past winter when we did that, I used that to just experiment with some stuff, work-related stuff like Elasticsearch and whatever, so that's kind of fun. It's a tinkering... even if we don't do an official Hack Week, it's still a good time to do some tinkering and get some of those creative juices going.Josh:Read some books on computer science or something like that, get excited about it again.Ben:Well, going through the SOC 2 compliance thing, the type two for the first time audit, one of the things that I came across that was new was this continuing education tracking thing. So the auditor wants evidence that we're actually doing continuing education for our employees. We always do conferences and stuff, but 2020 was a bad year for conferences, and we've never really tracked continuing education. We just like, "Yeah, let's do this conference," or whatever, and it's kind of ad hoc. And now it's like, "Oh, we need to track this, it's a good idea to plan something." So yeah, digging out those old computer science books or taking a course or doing a conference. Got to do it.Josh:Which is, well, you got to do it, but it's also, to me, that's one of my favorite things to do. I really like learning, so even in my spare time, that's what I like to do.Ben:Same.Josh:So I realized even with, yeah, my perfect workweek is a couple of hours maximum a day of doing the day-to-day things that you have to do, and then spend the rest of the day reading or learning something or working on improving your skills.Ben:Yep. Yeah. I to-Josh:That's what makes me happy.Ben:I don't try to do that every day, I like the idea, but I try to do that on Fridays. Friday to me is like the decompression day, I'm cruising into the weekend now. And so I try to put aside all the normal stuff and just something kind of interesting. Before we got on this morning, I was playing with some Docker stuff, not that we use Docker, but maybe we will someday, and just fiddling with it. You know?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:I think it's kind of fun.Josh:Yeah. Yeah. I like that.Ben:Until we get one of those customer requests that come in, I'm like, "Oh, I have to do some actual work now." And so, love our customers, but sometimes they can be kind of inconvenient, legitimate complaints about things need to be fixed.Josh:Or when there's an ops emergency, and so I drop everything and fix it. You had some of that going on this week. I know.Ben:But with both you and Starr got to experience those ops emergencies. It was actually a funny, so Starr, is on vacation, but the Starr was still on call for part of that time.Josh:The first night. Yeah. Because she had scheduled me to take over, was it yesterday? Whatever day it was-Ben:But in the morning.Josh:... but it was the night before. Yeah. It was like-Ben:Yeah, so I imagine in the future she might schedule you to swap a bit earlier, but-Josh:Yeah. I feel bad, because she said that, I guess, they had to get up early for a road trip and it's like 2:00 AM or something, or actually it was like 4:00 AM, I think, by the time the alerts died down.Ben:Yeah. The bad part was that there wasn't really anything to do. There was this spike in memory usage on our Redis Cluster, but it resolved itself, but only after sending some alerts saying, "Hey, somebody better pay attention to this," because that's a critical part of our infrastructure.Josh:Well, I mean, that's happened to me a few times. I mean, that's usually my on-call experience to be honest, and if it's worse than that, there's a good chance I'm waking you up anyways. But I mean, that's part of... You have a system well-architected, at least to the point, where if there is something, it does usually resolve itself, but still you need someone to sit up with it and babysit it until it does, just to make sure. And I mean, it would be totally unfair that you're the one who builds the system and also has to babysit it all the time, so our on call schedule is like a babysitter rotation.Ben:Yeah. Yeah. It's funny that you mentioned that, because I was looking at this vacation schedule, it's like, "Oh, when should I take vacation?" So I went and looked at the PagerDuty rotation to try and schedule my vacation away from my rotation on PagerDuty, so I didn't have to swap. And PagerDuty has changed their UI a little bit since the last time I looked at it, and I logged in and it's like, "When are you on call next?" And it says, "You're always on call." Because I'm the-Josh:Because you're level one.Ben:I'm the backup schedule. Yeah.Josh:I know, and that's a problem. I've been thinking about that, so you're not the only one worried about that, but, yeah.Ben:It was just kind of funny. I mean, it hasn't been a quality of life issue for a long time, because we've had so few problems, but still I am that backup. If it goes, what is it, more than half an hour or something, then I get woken up. But it was just kind of funny to see, you're always on call.Josh:Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'd say that's the major downside of our business is just the nature of that. And also just the nature of expertise. I feel like when I leave, it's much harder on the team, solving a lot of the customer support issues that come up related to our libraries and things. And I mean, that's part of the reason we've wanted to bring more people in the business, but then you end up with more people in the business, and then you're tied to a management role that you can't leave too. So there's trade-offs there.Ben:Yes. It's the struggle of all the bootstrap SaaS operators that are small like us, how do I get time away when I'm the solo founder? Or maybe it just two co-founders, how do we take a break? Justin has talked about this with their customer support for Transistor. They felt like they were always just having to stay on top of that, and they could never take a break. And so, they hired someone to help out with that. And having Kevin around has really helped spread the rotation out, and he's taken up a lot of the ops stuff and gotten familiar with it. So-Josh:Yeah. He's taken an interest in it, which is good.Ben:Yeah. It's been great for me.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah. It's a hard problem to solve, because, I mean, yeah, you could add people, but then you got to pay those people, and so your profitability takes a hit, so it's a balance.Josh:Yeah. And I mean, I think, I don't know about you, I prefer to stay small. I don't think... I've moved past the idea of I want to have a company with tons of employees or whatever. I think that actually would make... I wouldn't be as happy with that situation, probably, as with our current situation, with a few employees and small team. We probably spend a lot more time trying to solve these problems than larger companies do, because they just throw people at it. But yeah, I feel like-Ben:That just introduces a different set of problems, right?Josh:It does.Ben:You really just have to pick which set of problems you want. Do you want to be tied to the business? Or do you want to deal with the layers of management and the people problems that come with not being tied, personally, to the business?Josh:Yeah. So, yeah-Ben:Yeah.Josh:I don't know, over time though, I think I tend towards wanting to spend less time on the business or at least, when I say, on the business, I mean, less time on those things that I just have to be doing and don't want to be doing. I want to try to always be doing the things I want to be doing. And yeah. I mean, I know just general management stuff does not fall into that bucket of what I want to be doing.Ben:It's not your dream in life to be a manager.Josh:Nope. It's not even my dream in life to be traveling the world 200 days a year or something, and preaching the gospel or something.Ben:Yeah. I've thought about that recently too. Looking at companies that get really big, whether they take a bunch of money or not regardless, but they turn into tens and then hundreds of employees. And I think about what would that be to be a CEO of that kind of company? And I'm just like, I just don't know that I would really enjoy that. There would be a certain set of excitement, yes, no doubt, about having that kind of business.Ben:I can think of right now about Tobi at Shopify, because I remember when Tobi started at Shopify, and watch that grow. And just thinking about, it's got to be pretty fun and in some ways to be Tobi, to be on top of this organization and doing these cool things and seeing the impact that you're making. And they've gone public, there's a whole lot of cool stuff there, but there's also a lot of annoying stuff there. That come along with those cool things. And it's like, ah, I think I'm happy where I am. I don't think I need to be the CEO of Shopify or something that size to have that fulfillment in my career right now.Josh:Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that you find new ways to guard your time and it just becomes even more, that's why no one can reach the CEO, usually. But, I mean, it's all... Yeah. It just puts you in an even more critical position. The pressure and responsibility must still be pretty, it just must be massive. But-Ben:It must be.Josh:Yeah. I guess, I don't really know, because I've never been in that position. I'm just guessing.Ben:Right, right. And life phases might change somethings and maybe when the kids are grown and gone, maybe you'll feel like, ah, I want a new challenge, something bigger. I think you see that a lot with founders, like us, who build something, sell it. And they're like, "Huh, let me try a bigger swing. Let me try..." Like Josh is doing right now, he did it did Baremetrics, he sold that, and now he's building out Maybe, and I think he's definitely thinking bigger scope kind of stuff.Josh:It looks like it. Yeah.Ben:Or you can just go buy a ranch somewhere and just chill, right?Josh:Right. Well, I think it's kind of... I mean, yeah, those aren't unsimilar to me. I mean, I think the big point is or the major thing is, if you're financially set and you can, again, do whatever you want to do, then, yeah, go do it. But again, even, say, if we sold the business and didn't have to work another day in our lives, we could just go buy that ranch and just kick back on it. If I decided to go and start another company, I wouldn't want to start a company that is going to demand my time and involvement, like most companies do.Josh:I'd probably try to go start another Honeybadger or something, maybe, you could go larger scale, but something that solves for those problems. Yeah, and I don't know what that looks like, but I feel like some companies of the future are kind of like... The ones that GitLab, that take a more open source approach. I don't know exactly what being in charge of GitLab is like, but I'm sure it's not a walk in the park either, but experimenting with new ways to spread responsibility around. Yeah.Ben:Yeah. And maybe the answer is, that's a scenario where you do have to take a bunch of money, so you can get those employees to make that lift, right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah. I think if we sold Honeybadger and we did something new, I think it has to be different in some dimension or otherwise, why did you sell?Josh:Yeah. It would have to be.Ben:And so maybe it's a different audience. Maybe it's a different size. Maybe it's venture backed versus doing it from scratch. I think it would have to be different in some significant way for it to be interesting enough to actually do versus just spending the rest of my retirement tinkering or whatever.Josh:Yeah. Yeah. I guess, getting to that critical point with employees is the thing that's hard, going from what we have, which is kind of like where we're so small that we have things we have to still be here for, but we can just disconnect whenever we want to, for the most part, like take a week off if we want to, and just do customer support or be on call. But jumping from that to the point where, say, you have 50 employees or something and you're the CEO, and you can just be like, "Okay, everyone, I'm going to be gone for a week, carry on." Which I think you can do when you have other people managing people.Josh:But in between that, there's a very... it's like if you're growing out your hair, there's that weird, you know, the annoying stage where your hair, just like you hate it. And it's like, it just doesn't work. And you're... Yeah, it just seems like that exists when you're trying to grow a business where it's hard with 10 people, all 10 of those people are looking to you for leadership on a regular basis. And you're still connected to the major centers of the business.Ben:Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I hadn't really thought of it that way, and that makes total sense to me. There's those growing pains that you would get going from one phase to another.Josh:And I guess, I'm not sure, having been doing what we're doing as long as we have, I'm not convinced that I want to go through that pain that I know is there to get to that stage where I know that we probably would be in another... we'd be back in the position where we could probably have more freedom, or hire a CEO then to just run the business, which people do.Ben:Well, I mean, I wonder, so two thoughts that I have. I wonder, if you're a venture back startup, if you start from scratch with a bunch of money in the war chest, do you avoid some of those growing pains? Because you can just, right out of the gate, hire a bunch of people, right?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:So I wonder that, and then the follow on-Josh:Good thought.Ben:Yeah, I have no idea. And the follow on thought is, well, like in our situation, we've been around for a long time, we have profitable business, we're great, what if we take on an investment now, and then that gives us that money to hire a bunch of people? To help you accelerate through that growing pain phase, right?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:If you had one or two people here and there that's painful, but if you add 10 or 20 people, I don't know, maybe that's a different kind of pain, but maybe it's a better kind of pain. Because it's like ripping the band-aid off, because you did all done at once.Josh:Yeah. No, that's a good point. Yeah. That's something that I hadn't factored in, in that line of thinking. So, yeah, I think he could be right, that that is a common use of funding and capital investment and all that.Ben:Yeah. I would be open to that idea, if we had figured out the sales machine. If we could say, "Oh, we can deploy X amount of people, and we know that X amount of revenue would come in, because we'd be doing these Y activities."Josh:Totally.Ben:But we haven't quite got there yet. We have a really strong inbound, but we don't really have an outbound or we don't have a process even for dealing with inbound sales, because everything right now is hands-off, right?Josh:It's not scalable. Yeah. Yeah. So, we're doing this to ourselves, to some extent, just in our own lack of knowledge or experience in those areas, but that's part of the learning process. So-Ben:Yeah, you're right.Josh:... we are... I think it's smart though, to be focusing on those areas now, to open up those possibilities in the future. So that if we change our minds and realize that we could scale the business to a point where we can, again, have the same thing that we have now only potentially better because we don't have those, even the small responsibilities, that drag us back in, on a regular basis.Ben:Yeah, yeah. We're still choosing to grow slow and to keep it pretty calm, keep that calm company.Josh:Yeah. That's the point of calm-Ben:Right. If we take it big chunk of money, we could hire the VP of Marketing, the VP of sales, the VP of engineering, right? And then we could-Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:... presumably step back once we got these people set on the, here's the goal, now get it, right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:But, yeah, that would be a less calm company, for sure.Josh:Yeah.Ben:At least for a while.Josh:Yep. And even if that's to the extent that that's possible, yeah, I don't know, I mean, you still have to build the idea of the calm company into that business. Otherwise, you'll just end up with 30 to 50 people that are chaotic and-Ben:Right. Yeah.Josh:... calling you all the time or emailing you. Yeah. So I guess I'll revise my statement, it's like, I'm not willing to grind it out to get to the next level. If that's what it comes down to, I'm happy, let's just stay where we are for... I'm fine, we run the business as an asset and try to build the lifestyle aspect of it more than anything else. But if we can find a way to scale the business and then maybe invest in it so that we can accelerate the jump, or a hair faster, so to speak.Ben:I like that.Josh:I'm terrible at metaphors. I feel like this one might actually be working, but Starr's the metaphor person. So I feel like I'm really on... I'm going to risky position right now.Ben:Better stop while you're ahead, right?Josh:Yeah.Josh:No more metaphors for the rest of the day.Ben:I think that the hair growth thing works, just have to take care of not to offend all of our bald listeners, you know?Josh:Right. Yeah. So I went to a Starbucks this week and did some work inside of it-Ben:Whoa.Josh:... without a mask.Ben:Wow. That's brave.Josh:I still did the distancing stuff just because it seems smart. I wasn't hugging everyone, but, yeah, they've got it all posted, it's like, if you're vaccinated, the mask is optional. Plus I was drinking a beverage, so... But yeah, I had a Zoom session at the Starbucks, and it was a novel experience.Ben:Very nice. Yeah. I went to a Target this week for the first time in a long time, and yeah, I just put my mask on out of habit. It's like, get out of the car, put the mask on, go in the store, right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:And I'm walking around and I don't know, maybe a quarter of the people there didn't have masks, it's like, oh yeah, it's not required anymore, really. I'm vaccinated. I'm like, huh, cool. And I'll just get a long my way, but it's like, I have to get used to this new reality of not having to wear a mask.Josh:That not everyone... Yeah. Although I still suspect that a large portion of the people that are going to take them off or aren't going to wear them are the people that were always not wearing them.Ben:Yeah. Although I will say, if I were still doing mass transit every day, like I used to do, I would definitely be still wearing a mask, if it was any time cold or flu season-Josh:Oh yeah.Ben:I'm not going back to that prehistoric animal way of not covering myself during germy season.Josh:Well, there's that flu statistics that I guess have been coming in from the CDC, since the season is coming to an end 2020, 2021 or whatever, and it seems the whole social distancing. Masking situation, hand-washing really drastically improved that situation. I don't know, I forget what the numbers were, but it was ridiculous.Ben:Yeah, it's dropped like 99% or something crazy.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah.Josh:Something like that.Ben:It's nuts.Josh:Which is-Ben:It's awesome.Josh:... wild. Give it a little time for the data to get worked out, I guess, because just seems prudent. But I mean, either way, it seems like it's a massive thing.Ben:Yeah. I would definitely need to normalize mask wearing during germs, no doubt.Josh:Yeah. Yep. I'm cool with never getting sick again.Ben:Totally. Well, and on that note, this fall kids will actually be going to school, and it'll be an exciting adventure. All those, snot nosed punks running around getting each other sick again.Josh:Yeah. That'll be the real test. That's just going to knock us out. Yeah. Yeah. My daughter's, Tatum's starting kindergarten in the fall.Ben:Wow.Josh:And that'll be her... We did preschool at home. So yeah, that's going to be wild.Ben:First school experience, huh?Josh:Yes.Ben:Yeah, that's-Josh:I'm entering a new stage. I feel like, a new phase.Ben:Yeah. It's bittersweet. You're like, oh, that's so exciting. And it's like, oh.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah, yeah. I remember those days with fondness.Josh:What's also going to be weird, because it's going to force me to start interacting with other parents in the community, which I think that's my biggest thing right now is like, oh, no, I-Ben:You better watch out, next thing you know, you'll be the president of the PTSA. You'll be organizing bake sales, and-Josh:Yeah, we're definitely going to be the... I think we'll be the weird parents, in our area, anyway.Ben:It's funny. I've noticed this, this arc, your first kid goes into kindergarten and you're so into PTA and PTSA. You're like, "I'm going to take care of all the things. I'm going to volunteer in the classroom." And you're really engaged and involved and it's so good. And then over time you start to back off a bit. It's like, "Oh, I don't really need to do all the things, there are other people that help," you know?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:And then by the time they get to the tail end and they get close to graduation from high school, you're just like, "I don't even care what they're doing anymore. Educate yourself, kid. You figure it out."Josh:Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean I had to basically educate myself, so you can.Ben:Yeah, yeah. Totally. It's funny seeing the new wave of parents come in every year to the PTA, and then all of a sudden they go out, again, as the new wave comes in.Josh:And you having been there for a while, that sounds kind of like, oh no metaphors. Like if you go to a gym regularly and every New Year's, like the first two weeks of January, that's what it sounds to me.Ben:Yep. Yeah. Totally. Yeah.Josh:Because everyone comes in and is just super dedicated, and then over the next couple of weeks, it's just, they all filter out again and you're back to the same 10 people in the afternoon or whatever.Ben:Right. Yeah. And all the regulars get annoyed because of it. They're like, "Oh, all these people crammed in one place."Josh:Yeah. All this exuberance is just... Yeah.Ben:Yeah. So gym, that's a open question for me right now. So I still have a gym membership. I haven't canceled it, but I haven't been since the beginning of the pandemic. And even though I'm a 100% vaccinated, and I'm feeling invincible, still, the gym is one place I'm like, I don't know. I still feel kind of uncomfortable at that. Still trying to decide whether or not I'm going to keep that membership, because I really enjoy going, but I don't know, I don't really want to wear a mask while I'm exercising, that just sucks.Josh:Yeah, that was mine too, I just didn't... Yeah.Ben:Yeah. And wiping down everything, I'm not a super sweaty person, so I'm not the kind of person that really needs to wipe down the equipment as soon as I'm done with it, because it's like, I just touch it. I didn't have a bath on it. And so I'm just... I don't know. I don't even know if they have a kitchen cleaning procedure that you have to do now, because, again, I haven't been to the gym, but I don't know. It's tough.Josh:I haven't been to the gym, because I got my home gym in 2019, the end of 2019, and so it's been that long. But I do sweat and I was used to just wiping down the equipment in between, it's not that bad. Especially if you... you can even carry a towel with you if you want, but most gyms have the whatever clothes-Ben:Yeah. Wipes.Josh:... and spray bottles and stuff. It's not the end of the world, but the mask thing, yeah, the idea of working out in a mask does not appeal to me. Even though it could be a plus for some people, like the people that are training for high altitudes and stuff. Some people wear the mask on the treadmills and I'm sure those people are like, "Sweet, that's just extra challenge."Ben:Right, yeah.Josh:Yeah.Ben:So I'm still doing the home stuff and it's just not as-Josh:You should-Ben:... awesome.Josh:... give it a try.Ben:Yeah. I guess I should. I should call them and say, "Hey, what's the deal down there?"Josh:I mean, I figure from what has been reported, the vaccines are very effective.Ben:Yeah, totally.Josh:And I mean, I understand the hesitancy, give it some time, obviously, that's prudent, the wait and see approach is completely valid. But after that, I mean, if you're immune, you're immune. So at some point you have to start-Ben:Living again.Josh:Yeah. Getting back out there, putting yourself back out there. But I mean, it's not a bad thing to be cautious, so I understand.Ben:Yeah. Just get back in the habit, I guess.Josh:Yeah. And I mean, to be fair, I'm also not at the gym with a bunch of people spitting in my face. So just to be clear, I'm giving this advice from my bunker.Ben:Yeah. You've got the sweet home gym set up. I'm jealous.Josh:Yeah. Actually, I've reduced my routine a little bit lately, and I've actually been doing more yoga and flexibility things, because I always go really hard with the weightlifting, and I'm not getting any younger. And so injuries are more frequent, and so I've been doing two days, two days a week right now just to keep up the major lifts and stuff, but kind of taking a little bit of a break.Ben:Have you done any of the Apple Fitness stuff?Josh:Yeah, I did one of the yoga sessions on it, when I was just... because I did yoga last year, when I had some injury stuff, and it was good, and I should have just kept doing it. And so, that's why I tried when I first started getting back into it this year, and it was really good. It was a little intense though for a beginner like me. So I've been doing this more beginner training, learning the actual postures and stuff. But then my plan is just to use the Apple Fitness stuff after that, because they seem like they have a lot of good just general-Ben:Yeah. I really like the Apple Fitness stuff. I've done some of the yoga. I didn't do the 30 minute stuff. I did the 10 minutes stuff, because I'm a super beginner, and so I did the really easy yoga, which was great for me. And I've done their high intensity stuff, which was pretty good. I'm not really an aerobics kind of person. I run and I ride, I figure I get enough aerobics that way. But when it was raining and cold and stuff, I just did the high intensity stuff, and that was pretty cool. I really liked that. And I've done their cycling, which is okay, but it's geared, at least the ones that I did, were geared towards being on a indoor cycling machine where you can adjust the intensity easily and stuff.Ben:I'm not, I'm on my own bike on a trainer, where the wheel is propped up and it's on that little roller. And so a lot of the instructions in the thing were, "Okay, let's dial up the resistance." And it's like, "Well, okay, I don't have that good of a setup here. I can't just dial up the resistance." So I had to alter it a bit, but it was still nice.Josh:You got to get your weighted boots on.Ben:I mean, but they do have trainers like mine that actually do have remote control, and so you can do that, but I don't have one. But anyway, I really enjoyed them. The fitness things are cool, and they're set into 30, 20, 10 minute intervals. And so you can like, "Oh, what kind of workout do I want today?" Yeah, I really like it.Josh:Yeah. I like the high intensity stuff for cardio a lot. And otherwise , yeah, I don't know, I could get into running, I think, but I really like walking, so I'll go for super long walks. But again, time is sometimes a factor that... sometimes I'll even just go for the afternoon and just start walking and end up back home at dinner time or something like that. I like that, but I've never been like going out too much. I've gone through a few running phases, but it never really stuck. So I like the high intensity stuff, because as far as I understand, it gives you some of the same benefits without having to run for an hour or something.Ben:Yeah, yeah.Josh:Yeah.Ben:I too love long walks.Josh:Yep. I think that's a great way to spend some of your just general workweek. That's the good alternative to sitting and grinding away at the desk-Ben:No doubt.Josh:... for eight hours a day or whatever. This morning I was wrestling with my kids and stuff. And I was picking them up individually and lifting them up and then throwing them on the bed. And then I was like, "Okay, now I have to go, I have to go back to work." And they're like, "No, no. We just, we want one more." So I was like, "Okay, I've got one more." So I picked them both up, one in each arm. And I do, basically, a lateral raise with them. And as I do this, I don't know what they weigh, but Tatum's over 50 pounds, and of course they're unbalanced, but my entire upper body, just like... I hadn't done any stretching or anything, so my entire upper body just cracks all over, and Caitlin, she's like, "Are you okay?" Apparently it was like, she was concerned for me. So, yeah, I realize, man, it's not the good old days anymore.Ben:You're getting up there in years.Josh:Not that out there, but at the age where you start to notice these things, right?Ben:Yeah.Josh:But I'm not past the point of trying.Ben:So did you do anything this week? I didn't do a whole lot actually. Well, I mean, I did responding to those urgent issues-Josh:Like working, you mean?Ben:Yeah.Josh:I did not get a whole lot of work done this week no. Yeah, no, you're good. I figure, yeah, I mean, again, yeah, I'm ready for a break, so I've been trying my best, but-Ben:You're coasting into that vacation.Josh:Yeah, it's been a struggle.Ben:That's awesome.Josh:But I mean, I think, we need to learn not to feel bad about that. Having a "unproductive" week. And I mean, if I'm... Yeah, honestly, I did things this week, it just wasn't as much work things. Dealt with things at home, read some books, that sort of stuff, that's still being productive, right?Ben:Totally. Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah.I thought a lot about our project that we mentioned last week on the podcast about working together with Kevin on, I had spent a fair amount of time thinking about that. And that's one of the things that you can do on those long walks, it can still be working.Josh:Thinking.Ben:Thinking.Josh:Yeah, thinking is totally work.Ben:Thinking is totally work, so I did a lot of thinking this week, and responding to urgent stuff, but also, nearly, nearly done on the compliance thing. I think I have 11 out of 150 evidence requests left to complete. So-Josh:Wow.Ben:... yeah, it's almost there. Next week, I'll be actually talking to the auditors and-Josh:Awesome.Ben:Yeah. It's almost done. That's nice.Josh:And you've got ideas for making it easier next year.Ben:Yep. Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Ben:So, yeah, just plugging away.Josh:So I guess we're cruising.Ben:Yeah, no worries. Well, I guess we can wrap it.Josh:Yeah, wrap it.Ben:They're getting a good one. This has been FounderQuest. We're still coming at you mostly every week, and we really enjoy it. And if you enjoy it, hope you give us a review at iTunes or wherever you can review podcasts, because I never do that, so I have no idea. But if you're into that, please do, and, yeah, check out Honeybadger, of course, because we love having more customers. And I guess we'll see y'all next time.Josh:Catch you later.

Show notes:Links:TwistHook RelayBen Orenstein TupleWrite for HoneybadgerFull transcript:Starr:So Ben is joining us today from his car. It's bringing back fun memories. I recorded, I think the voiceover for our very first demo video in my car.Ben:Oh yeah? Nice. So as you may recall, I have a two story building that I lease one of the rooms, and the downstairs is a wine tasting room. Well with the pandemic, the company that had the wine tasting room, they closed shop. They stopped leasing, because who's going to go to a wine tasting room during a pandemic, right? Well they're leasing the space to a new tenant that's going to take that space. Apparently hey, we're getting back, things are reopening, let's taste wine again, but the new tenant wants to have a new door put in. So I got to the office today and they're like, "Yeah, we're putting in a new door." And then I'm like, "Cool." Didn't even think much of it. But then a few minutes later, there's all this drilling going on. I'm like, "Oh, I think probably the car is a better place to record today."Josh:Well at least you'll have some new friends soon.Ben:True, true.Starr:Yeah. Well I'm glad you made it, at least. And so what's up? I missed a week of the podcast and you guys invested our entire Honeybadger savings account into Bitcoin.Josh:Yeah.Starr:And I'm not sure that was the most prudent investment decision, y'all. I just wanted to say that.Ben:Yeah, the timing could have been better.Josh:Yeah, we really pulled a Roam Research on that one.Starr:Oh yeah. What do you mean by that?Josh:They invest in Bitcoin, apparently.Starr:Oh, they do? Okay.Ben:Of course they do.Starr:Of course. It's just a dip. You're supposed to buy the dips, Josh. It's just what, like a 30% dip? 40% dip?Josh:I wasn't watching it, but I read that it had recovered pretty quickly too.Starr:Oh. I have no idea. I didn't even follow it.Josh:As it does.Starr:I don't even follow it.Josh:Yeah. I just read random people's opinions.Starr:There you go.Josh:I forget where we left it last week, but I just wanted to state for record that I think I mentioned I made some accidental money in Bitcoin back when I was learning about block chain technology, but I have not bought any Bitcoin since, nor do I intend to, and I do not really view it as an investment asset.Starr:This is not investment advice.Josh:I just need to state my opinions for the future so I can look back on them with regret. If I don't say what I actually think, I'm never going to have anything to regret.Starr:There you go.Josh:I'm just going to commit.Starr:So you've decided to die on this no intrinsic value hill.Josh:Right. I'll let you know if I change my mind.Starr:Okay, that's fine. That's fine. Yeah, I don't really check. Last week y'all did the interview with Mike, right?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Josh:Yeah, it was a good conversation.Starr:Yeah. I don't really pay attention to it, except occasionally I'll look at the chart. It's the same with GameStop. Occasionally I'll look at the GameStop chart and then just see what wild stuff people are saying about it. Yeah.Ben:Yeah, GameStop was hovering at about 150 for a while, but now it's up to like 170-ish, 180. Something like that. Yeah. I peek at it every now... it's on my watch list when I log into my brokerage account, so I just see it. I'm like, "Oh, okay. Cool." And then I move on and check out my real actual stock portfolio.Starr:Oh yeah, yeah. I'm not going to buy it. It's like a TV show for me.Ben:Yeah, totally.Josh:Yeah. To be fair, I really don't have much of an opinion either way. I still don't understand it, so I don't know. I just feel like I probably shouldn't be buying it.Starr:That's really good advice. I don't understand anything though, so what am I supposed to do, Josh? Huh? Huh?Josh:Yeah.Ben:Just buy the index fund.Starr:Yeah. I don't even understand that.Josh:I don't understand that either though, if you really think about it.Ben:That's actually, there was a good thread or so on Twitter. I don't know if it was this week or last week, but basically the idea was if you feel really confident in your own ability, in your own business, given that, you're probably spending most of your time in that business, right? We spend most of our creative time in Honeybadger because that's where we feel the most potential is. So you're investing basically all of your personal capital in this one business. How do you diversify that risk? Or do you diversify the risk? Do you double down? Maybe do you take investment to diversify, and so you buy out? Let someone do a secondary and so you take some cash off the table? If you did that, then where would you put the money? Do you just go, "Okay, I'm going to go buy Bitcoin. I'm going to go buy an index fund," or whatever. And if you do that, is that a better use of your money than having just kept the equity and just plowing more time into your business? Right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:It's an interesting thought exercise. It's like, "Hm." The whole investment mindset of your business is interesting to me.Josh:Yeah. Yeah, that was interesting. I think I saw that conversation, or maybe I saw a similar conversation where they were talking about even just 401Ks and for founders who are already fairly... have at least made it in whatever sense that means. Is it the best financial move to keep maxing out your 401K versus investing in your ability to generate revenue in your business?Starr:So a little bit of real talk here. If you are a founder who's made it, maxing out your 401K isn't really a blip on your financial radar.Josh:It's not a big... yeah. That was kind of the same thought I had. It's not like you're putting 50% of your income into it.Starr:Yeah. What is it, like 20 grand? Something like that?Josh:Yeah.Starr:It's a good chunk of change, but still. It's not like...Josh:Yeah. I don't know.Starr:Yeah, that's interesting. I think I'm just going to go all in on Pogs. I think they're due for a comeback. I think that's going to be how I diversify.Josh:But I think it's probably a good move to invest in yourself if you have the ability to build businesses. That definitely seems like a good investment, in any case. Probably still have a 401K. I tend to do everything, except Bitcoin.Ben:A 401K is a nice backstop. Just keep stocking money away, and later it will be there, hopefully. But in the meantime, really, really spend your time and your energy on making your business even more profitable. Speaking of making your business more profitable, so this past week or two weeks, I've been working on our SOC 2 type two audit, so I'm doing the evidence collection.Starr:Oh yeah?Ben:So that in this case means I take a bunch of screenshots of settings, like the AWS console and G-suite console to show yeah, we have users, and yes, we have login restrictions, et cetera. All the 150 different things that you're supposed to check off the list when you do the audit. And as I've been going through this process taking all these screenshots, honestly it's getting a bit tedious, and it's surprisingly time consuming. And so I'm like, "You know, there are services for this sort of thing. Let me check them out." And so in the past three days, I've had conversations with Vanta, Secureframe, and Drata. These are three providers that what they do is they provide almost SOC 2 in a box. Basically they help you connect all of your systems and get the evidence that you need for an auditor in a more automated fashion. So for example, they'll plug into your AWS account and they'll pull out information about your security groups, your application firewall, your AIM, all the access permissions, all that kind of stuff, and pack that up into a nice little format that the auditor can then look at and like, "Yeah, they're good on all these different requirements." So you don't have to take screenshots of security groups.Ben:And I hadn't really looked at them before because I was like, "I don't know if I just want to spend that kind of money," but actually sitting back and looking at it, looking at the time that I'm spending on this and the amount of time I'm paying our auditors to audit all these screenshots that I'm taking, actually I think it would be cheaper to go with one of these services, because your audit is a bit more streamlined because the auditor knows how that data is going to come in and it's an easy format to digest, et cetera. But the thing is that after having gone through some of the sales pitches from these vendors, I'm thinking I really wish I would have started with these back the first time, because I think it would have been much easier just from the get go. So I think I've been doing the SOC compliance on hard mode, unfortunately, but lessons learned.Starr:With my experience, that just seems to be how projects are. You do it one time and you don't really know what you're doing, and you just push your way through it, and then eventually you figure out how to do it better and easier and all that. Because when something is new to you, you don't know what you can safely ignore. You know?Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Well plus you're pumping up the value of FounderQuest.Starr:Oh, that's true. We got a lot of content out of that.Ben:That's true.Starr:At least $100 worth.Josh:That's useful knowledge. Yeah.Ben:Yeah, so I think the short version is if you are interested in doing SOC2 compliance and you have no idea what you're doing, talk to these vendors first and maybe just start with them. They will help you, because they have customer success people like SaaS does. They have people on staff who are there to help you have success with their product. And if you don't get compliant, then you're going to stop using their product, so they're going to help you try and get there. And it's still pricey. It's still going to be five figures a year, but it will definitely save you some time and maybe even save you some money.Josh:Nice.Ben:Yeah. So next year, our audit should just be smooth as silk.Starr:Just butter.Josh:Love it.Starr:So if we-Josh:What are you going to do with all that extra free time?Ben:I made an executive decision.Starr:Oh really? What's that?Ben:Yes. The executive decision is we're going to have more teamwork at Honeybadger.Starr:That's ironic.Josh:Instead of what? What we have now, which is anarchy?Ben:We pretty much do have anarchy, I think. We are coordinated, we do make our plans, and we do have things we want to get done, but yeah, we are very independent at Honeybadger. We work independently. You might even say we're kind of siloed. We go off in the corner and do our own thing for most of the time. And I was chatting with Kevin about this, and I think we're going to try an experiment. So I think we're going to try to actually work together.Starr:Kevin is our developer.Starr:Yeah, so you all are going to be developing features together. Are you going to pair program? Are you going to use Tuple?Ben:Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down there.Starr:Are you going to mob program?Ben:Pair programming, that's maybe too advanced for us, I think. Maybe actually we'll chat in Slack a little bit here and there and maybe have a Zoom call.Josh:Yeah, so you're talking about you're both going to work on the same project at the same time.Ben:Right. Right.Josh:Mostly independently, but coordinating.Ben:Right. Yeah.Josh:Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I think that still can fit into our anarchy model.Starr:Yeah. It still seems a little bit independent.Josh:It's more like mutual aid or something.Starr:There you go. We should make a conference talk about mutual aid development.Josh:Right.Starr:That would go over well.Ben:Using NATO as a model for your development process. Yeah, so we'll see how it goes. I'm looking forward to it. I think I've been feeling a little lonely. I don't know if it's the right word, but maybe just off doing my own thing. I was like, "Oh, I think it will be nice to have some collaboration, some coordination." Maybe we'll even get to a level of synergies.Starr:Synergies.Starr:That's a blast from the past.Josh:Yeah, I think it's a good idea.Ben:Yeah, so more to come on that. We'll keep you posted. It's a bigger project. May not have results for a couple months. Don't really want to spill the beans on what it is right now. Competitive information. Don't want to leak it to all of our competitors.Starr:I like that. I like that. It's going to keep people on the hook for the next episodes.Josh:Totally.Ben:But yeah. That was my week.Josh:Yeah. Well my week, I took some time off, had some family stuff going on, so I was not very productive this week, but what I did work on was I've been working on this little guide for Hook Relay. I'd love to get the marketing machine, the fly wheel going on that at least, so we can be moving that along with everything else. And so yeah, working on some content and such.Starr:What is Hook Relay?Josh:Well you tell us what Hook Relay is, Ben. It's your baby.Ben:It's my baby. Yeah. So Hook Relay is a tool for managing web hooks. So you can record web hooks as they go out. In our case, to Honeybadger, we send a lot of web hooks, and so we built Hook Relay to help track all that web hook action. So we logged as pay loads that can go and diagnose issues that are happening, or maybe replay them as necessary, and of course it also handles inbound web hooks. So if you were handling, let's say, a post pay load request from GitHub about some activity that happens in your GitHub account, you handle that web hook and we can give you a place to store that, and then you can replay that, send it, forward it onto somewhere if you want, or just store it.Josh:Yeah. I think one of my favorite things about Hook Relay is just the visibility that it gives us into what's happening with the hooks, because otherwise we never had a dashboard. I guess we could have built one internally to see what the activity was and what's failing, what's actually... what requests are... because you're connecting to thousands of different people's random domain URLs, basically. It's really nice even for debugging and things like troubleshooting to be able to see what's going on, in addition to all the other cool things that it gives you out of the box.Starr:So you might say it's even like turnkey reliability and visibility for web hooks. For all your web hook needs.Ben:Yeah. Yeah, we modeled it on Stripes web hooks because we loved-Starr:I'm holding up a box up. I'm holding the TurboLinks box up and gesturing at it with my hand.Ben:Vanna White style.Josh:We should do our own channel, do our own infomercials.Ben:Yeah, I really wanted experience of Stripe. If you set up web hooks in Stripe, you can go and you can see all the web hooks they've sent you. You can see the pay loads, you can see whether they were successfully delivered or not, and I wanted that experience for our own web hooks, and also I thought it would be cool if developers could just have that without having to build the infrastructure. And so if you're building an app that send a bunch of web hooks on behalf of your customers, well now you can give your customers visibility into that web hook activity without having to build that tracking yourself.Josh:Yeah. That's pretty cool. So basically this content guide I'm working on is how to build web hooks into your application, including all the reliability and stuff that Hook Relay gives you for free. And the idea is that if that's what you're doing and you just want to save some time, Hook Relay will be a large chunk of that. You've just got to sign up. So I think it will be useful to everyone, even if they don't become a customer. If you're going to build your own back end and handle all the retries, build dashboards, and all that. But if you want it all turnkey, then Hook Relay is a big chunk of that work just done of you.Starr:So is this live? So can people go and sign up now?Ben:Yeah.Josh:Hook Relay, yes. It is.Josh:Hookrelay.dev.Ben:Yeah. In fact, we have enough customers now that it's actually paying for itself.Starr:What?Ben:Yes. So sweet.Josh:It's wild. That's wild.Starr:That's amazing.Ben:So Josh, is your guide going to have... are you going to dive deep into the architecture of here's how you build a whole web hook system, and so we're going to show you all the stuff behind the curtain so you can build your own? And then, "Oh, by the way, if you want it just done for you, here it is." Or are you going to just keep it more high level?Josh:I'm starting more high level. Yeah, I was planning on it being more high level. More like a high level architecture thing, or specification. Like these are the parts that you'll need to build, but you're going to have to solve some things, because it's not going to be specific to one system. It's not going to be like, "This is how you build web hooks for Ruby and Sidekick, or if you're going serverless." It will have suggestions on stacks or technologies to use for the back end, for instance, but yeah. I was thinking of leaving that to the user to figure out, but just showing the things you need to think about that a lot of people don't think about until they encounter the problems that might arise, like retrying and all the error handling that you add later, and validation for security reasons and things.Ben:Yeah. Yeah.Starr:This is giving me flashbacks to a whole two or three year process after we first launched.Josh:Yeah.Starr:It was just like, "Oh, crap. There's an edge case here that we didn't think of because we're not used to doing web hooks at this scale." And that just went on for like three years.Josh:Yeah. And it's nice having the two products because Hook Relay came out of Honeybadger and it's basically part of our web hook system. This is basically just documenting Honeybadger's web hook system for other people who might want to replicate that or whatever.Ben:Totally. I think that will be cool. A great piece of content, a great piece of SEO juice. And if you did decide to go deep into the technical side, like if you explain the entire infrastructure that we're building, that would actually be kind of cool too because you could maintain your technical documentation for the system internally and use it as a piece of content for marketing.Josh:That could be cool. Yeah. That's not a bad idea. Yeah, I was thinking just because I want to get something out there. I'm thinking it will help with both, having a resource for people who are already on the site to see this is basically how you will implement this. It's kind of like an implementation guide, really. But then also SEO. It should help get us in more search results.Ben:Yeah.Josh:And I also want to credit Ben Orenstein and and Tuple. They have a great pair programming guide which was an inspiration for this idea. I just really liked the format that they used, and I just think it's a great idea if you have a product that's highly targeted or focused on one specific thing and doing it really well. I think it's maybe even a great alternative to a blog, for instance. You can get some of the same benefits of having a blog, but without actually having to create a blog with a lot of different variety of topics and things.Ben:Speaking of the blog, I was talking to Harris, our sales guru, about our blog strategy, and I said, "Yeah, it's basically like a flypaper strategy. We want it to attract developers that come and see the content and they love it and they're like, 'Oh, let me check out this Honeybadger thing.'" Not particularly novel, but I like the flypaper idea.Starr:That's a good metaphor. And also for a long time, I poo-pooed SEO because in my mind, SEO was very scammy. I don't know. I learned about SEO in the days of link farming and all that, and I just didn't want to be involved in that. So I'm just like, "We're just going to put out good content and that will be enough." And it is, yes, but also I've looked at some metrics since then that make it clear that the majority of good things that happen because of our blog actually are people entering through search queries. That really outweighs people sharing articles and doing stuff like that, which I guess is obvious that it would be that way, but my own bias against search just made me not see that for a while. So maybe trying to pick some possible low hanging fruit. We've tried to make our site search engine friendly, but we having really done any explicit SEO type activities.Josh:Yeah. I went through recently through our documentation and just tweaked just small things on a bunch of pages, like headlines and some of the meta tags and stuff, but mostly headlines and content on page was what I was focusing on. And I wasn't using any particular tool to measure before and after results, but it does seem like it bumped us up in some of the results for people searching for more general terms like Ruby error tracking, for example, which are typically pretty competitive terms. But I think we rank pretty well for some of those terms these days. I think we've been around enough and we're one of the options that come up. So it does seem like if you already target the terms, it actually does what they say it does, which is good to know. You've just got to pay attention to it.Ben:So the moral of story is there is some value in SEO.Starr:I guess so.Josh:Yeah. Well and I think documentation sites. Your documentation, I think it's a great place to optimize SEO because a lot of times, especially for those... maybe not for the long tail searches. A blog is great for that, like what you were talking about with the flypaper, Ben. But for people who are actually searching for what you do, I think a lot of times documentation pops up first in a lot of cases when I'm searching for things, so don't overlook it like we did.Starr:Yeah. Well this week, I guess the main thing I did was I got our authors lined up for the next quarter of intelligence briefings. So if you haven't been playing along at home, we're having some intelligence briefings created. Basically everything that's going on in a certain language community for the quarter, and this grew out of Josh's need because he's basically in charge of our client libraries. And we have libraries in a variety of languages, so keeping up with those languages and what's going on is a real pain in the ass, so we were going to make these guides originally for him, but then also we were like, "This would be really great content to publish."Starr:And I've already got this system with authors who want to write about programming languages, and so let's see if we can make some authors make these summaries. And so far, yeah, I'm pretty happy. We had four or five of them created, and we're not publishing them because they were for a previous quarter, and this is just a trial run to see if the results are okay, and I think they were. I think the results were pretty good. We go some feedback from you two, and I updated my process and updated the template that all the authors are using, and so we should be getting round two done. I'm setting the deadline a week after the end of the quarter. My hope is if they get them to me then, then I'll have a week to get them up on our blog or wherever, and then they won't be too out of date by the time people see them.Josh:Yeah. That's cool. I'm excited to see the next batch. My favorite thing from the reports were the ones where they wrote some original content summarizing things or sections or whatever. That was super useful because there's a little bit of a story element to it that's specific to the quarter or whatever that you don't really get from just... if you just aggregate everything, all the weekly newsletters and what happened on Reddit and what happened on Twitter. If you just dump that all in a document, it's a bit of overload, so it's nice to have the summary the story of what the community was interested in.Starr:Oh yeah. Definitely.Josh:Here are some articles that they talked about.Starr:That's the whole idea, is to have somebody who knows the community explain to you what's going on, as opposed to... if I wanted a bunch of links, I could just write a little script to scrape links from places.Josh:Yeah.Starr:And it wouldn't be very useful. What's useful is having people who know the environment being like, "Hey, this is what's going on. This is why it's important." And yeah, so that's going to be something I guess I need to look for explicitly when I get this round of things of reports back.Josh:Start calling them secret agents or something instead of authors.Starr:Oh yeah.Josh:Or detectives.Starr:Operatives. Yeah. Assets.Josh:As our detective service investigators.Ben:I think having that analysis of why this news is important or why these things are important that they've collected is really handy, because the links are great. Like you said, I could just write a script to collect them, but having someone with that context in the community saying, "Okay, and it's important because, and this is why you should pay attention," I think that's really helpful to someone who's maybe not as deep into that every day.Starr:Oh yeah.Josh:Yeah. And also knowing what to surface, because there was one report that it really seemed to just dump every single link or article that was discussed or was in a newsletter or whatever, and I think it's more helpful if it's on a quarterly level, if you know what is actually the important things that you really want to know about.Starr:Yeah, that's true. I just made a note for myself to go back and explicitly just mention that to people, because I realized I didn't put it in the instructions anywhere. I put like, "Here's where a description of the content goes," but I didn't really put what I want inside that description, I realized.Josh:Yeah.Starr:So I'm going to do that.Ben:We're iterating in real time here.Starr:Oh yeah, yeah. This is where the work gets done.Josh:Yeah. Well and pretty soon, we'll have hopefully some good examples that we can show future authors, or detectives, or whatever we're calling them.Starr:Oh, definitely. Definitely. I'm going to call them authors because they're already in the blog system as authors and it just seems like-Josh:Agents?Starr:I don't know. I've got to be able to talk to these people with a straight face.Ben:You could call them research specialists, but then you might have to pay them more.Starr:There you go.Josh:Research. Yeah. Yeah.Starr:I don't know. I think I'm paying pretty well. Honestly, I think I'm paying pretty well for looking at... I don't know. How many weeks is a quarter? 12? 12 weeks of newsletters and just telling me what's going on. I think I'm paying pretty well.Josh:Yeah. You don't need to talk to them with a straight face though. You need to talk to them with sunglasses on, smoking a cigarette in a diner.Starr:Oh that's right. Yeah.Josh:Or a dive bar somewhere.Starr:Those people aren't smiling. Those people aren't smiling. Oh, that's right. I can do that. I just realized that it's two weeks since my second vaccine, so I'm ready to go out and recruit secret agents.Josh:Ready to party.Starr:Yeah. I'm very anxious talking with people in public now, but that's not a topic for this conversation.Josh:Yeah. We'll ease back into it.Starr:Oh yeah. Yeah, we're going to have dinner with my sister in law on Saturday, and I'm just like, "Okay Starr, you can do this. You can do this."Josh:Cool.Starr:Yeah, and I guess the other thing that we did this week is we are doing a trial run of Twist as a replacement for Basecamp messages, the message board on Basecamp. And yeah, so basically the long and short of it is the whole Basecamp BS just left a bad taste in my mouth in particular. I think you all's a little bit, or maybe you're neutral. I don't care. That sounded really harsh.Ben:You can be honest with us. We can take it.Starr:No, I didn't mean to sound that harsh. I just mean I'm not trying to put my opinions onto you, is what I'm saying. I just felt gross using Basecamp. Also if I'm being honest, I never really enjoyed Basecamp as a product. It's got a couple things that just really rubbed me the wrong way.Josh:We were having some vague conversations in the past. We have posed do we really want to keep this part of what we're using Basecamp for? And we were already using a subset of it, so yeah. It wasn't totally out of the blue.Starr:Yeah. And we were using maybe 20% of Basecamp, just the message boards feature.Josh:And the check ins, which apparently we all disliked.Starr:And the check ins, which nobody liked but we all kept using for some reason. Ben is like, "Can I turn off the check ins?" And I'm like, "I thought you were the only reason we were doing the check ins, it's because I thought you liked them."Ben:I think I was the only reason we were doing the check ins.Josh:It's because... yeah.Ben:Yeah, because I remember when I started it I was like, "Yeah, I really don't know what's going on," because back to that siloed, independent, off in the corner thing, I was like, "It would be nice to know what people are doing." But yeah, lately I've been like, "This is just a drag." So I'm like, "Would anybody be upset if this went away?" And everyone is like, "Please take it away."Josh:Everyone is just passively aggressively answering them.Ben:Everyone hated it.Josh:It wasn't that bad, but-Ben:I get it.Josh:Kevin used them too, but yeah.Ben:So I finally gave everyone permission to tell me that it was not okay, and now we no longer do it.Starr:There you go. And we're just like, "While we're at it, just ditch Basecamp." So yeah, so we've been trying a new system called Twist. Twist is, essential it's... I don't know, it's like threaded discussions. I figured this out on my own. I'm very proud of myself. So you have lots of threads, and you twist them together to make yarn or something or some sort of textile, so I bet you that's why it's called Twist.Josh:Beautiful sweater.Starr:Yeah. A beautiful sweater. The tapestry that is Honeybadger. And so far, I've really been enjoying it. I find the UI to be a lot better. There was one bug that we found that I reported, so hopefully that will get fixed. It doesn't really bother me that much. Yeah, it's amazing sometimes how the UI of an application can just be like, "Oh, ah. I'm having to parse less information just to do my task."Josh:It's much nicer.Starr:Yeah.Ben:It does feel like a lot less friction for our use case.Josh:Yeah. Well we talked about that, just the structure. The way that you structure conversation and organization things in a management tool like that makes a big difference. In Basecamp, we would create Basecamps for whatever. They call them Basecamps, right? They're the projects.Starr:They're like projects. I don't know.Josh:We'd create different ones, different projects for each project, but then there's five of us, so we'd basically just add everyone to every single project that is in there. But all the conversation is siloed off in each project, and with Twist, it's just much more of a fluid... it uses what, like channels? But yeah, it just seems like it's all together. It's kind of like a combination of Slack and a threaded message board or something, to me.Starr:Yeah, or like Slack and email or something.Josh:Slack and email. Yeah. It's a nice combo.Starr:Yeah. It has inbox, which I like, where it shows you any unread messages, and so you can just easily just go and scan through them, and it's all in the same page. It's a single page application, so you don't have to click out to a completely new page and then come back to the inbox and do all that. Basecamp had a similar feature, but it's like a timeline and it had a line down the middle of the screen and then branches coming off of either side of it. And for some reason, I started using the inbox in Twist and it was just like, "Oh, this is so much better." For some reason I think having things on different sides of the screen just doubled the amount of background processing my brain had to do to put it all together. And yeah, so I don't know. I do like it. Also, it's got mark down. It's got mark down.Josh:The mark down editor is so nice. It reminds me a lot of just using GitHub, the editor on GitHub, with the mark down mode and preview. And you can drag and drop images into the... I don't know if you knew that, into the mark down editor, like you can on GitHub, and it automatically inserts the image tag and uploads it for you.Starr:Yeah, it's all really slick. So I don't know. I imagine in maybe another... I've got vacation next week, so maybe after that we'll get together and compare notes. But I don't know, it seems like people like it so far.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah, it's been good. It's interesting-Josh:If I had to decide today, it's a keeper for me.Ben:Yeah, I would go ahead and switch.Starr:Oh yeah, me too.Ben:It's interesting to me, you alluded to this, Starr, as you were talking about comparing it to your products and how they approach... it's interesting to me the UI, even if it's the same kind of functionality, how much different takes on the user experience can make a different experience for the user. How it just feels different. Like, "Oh yeah, it's basically doing the same thing, but it just feels better for whatever. My mentality or our business." Fill in the blank there, but I thought about that many times. Honeybadger versus competitors. It's like, "Yeah, they're doing basically the same thing, but we do have differences in how we approach the UI and different use patterns that we think are more emphasized by our UI versus the others." And sometimes it's just a matter of personal preference. It's like, "Oh, this just feels better to me." One night I tried Python before I tried Ruby, and Python is like, "Oh, that's interesting," but then Ruby really clicked my brain. It's like, "Oh, it just feels better." And I'm sure other people have the opposite experience, but I don't know. It's weird to me and fun to think about the human part of these products. Josh:Yeah. And it's surprising, the strong opinions that people pick up just based on those experience things when they're basically the same, if they're doing the same thing. Some people, they either love it or hate it based on that.Starr:Yeah, that's true. Maybe it all goes back to whatever business apps you used in childhood. It's just whatever your mom made you for lunch, you're always going to love that.Josh:Yeah. It's like a nurture thing, nature versus nurture. You were exposed to these apps when you were young, and so it's just what you're drawn to.Starr:Yeah. I remember putting my little friend's contact details into Lotus Notes.Josh:Right. I had to program Lotus Notes.Ben:I got my first dev job because I knew Lotus Notes.Starr:Oh, nice.Josh:Lotus Notes was an important precedent at the time, I think.Starr:Yeah.Ben:Yeah. Yeah. It was the bomb. You could do some pretty serious stuff.Starr:Yeah. I kept having these jobs that weren't technically dev jobs, but ended up being dev jobs just because I knew how to write V basic macros for Excel. I'm sure a lot of people had that experience.Josh:The thing I remember doing in Lotus Notes was setting it up to ingest email from the outside world into whatever, the system. And thinking about it now, that project I've done over and over and over since then.Starr:It's Basecamp.Josh:And I'm still doing that project.Starr:It's Basecamp all over again. Oh no.Ben:If only there was a service that took in emails for you, and then you could just bring them into your app data.Josh:Yeah. I bet in 20 years, we'll be writing programs to accept email.Ben:Process emails, yeah.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Yeah. When is this stuff going away? Technology changes all the time. When is email going away? They've been killing it for years. It's like fricking Rasputin. When is it going away?Ben:It's the cockroach of protocols.Starr:There you go.Josh:After the singularity, they'll still have to have a way to import it directly into your consciousness, and yeah, I don't know.Starr:Yeah. I hope the spam filtering is really good then.Starr:All right, well it was great talking with y'all.Ben:Likewise.Starr:Yeah. So this has been FounderQuest. Go to the Apple podcast and review us if you want. If you're interested in writing for us, we are always looking for fresh, new talent. Young authors looking to make their mark on the world of technical blog posts for SAS companies. And yeah, just go to our blog and look for the write for us page. I don't currently have any openings, but who knows? People flake out. So if you're interested in writing these reports for us too, get in touch. These quarterly intelligence briefings, if you want to be an agent for our intelligence service. All right, so I'll see y'all later.

Show notes:Links:Mike MondragonCRDTShip of TheseusExceptional CreaturesShiba Inu Full Transcript:Ben:I'm just gonna dive on in there. I'm so eager. I'm so excited. It's actually weird because Starr is the one that typically starts us off. Josh:Yeah. I thought we were just going to start with our just general banter, and then not introduce the guest until 30 minutes later.Ben:By the way.Josh:It is also our tradition.Ben:Yeah. Well we're getting better at this thing.Josh:Where we say, "Oh, by the way, if Starr doesn't sound like Starr..."Ben:Right, yes. Today Starr doesn't sound like Starr because today's star is Mike Mondragon instead. Welcome Mike.Josh:Hey Mike.Mike:Hey.Ben:Mike is a long time friend of the show, and friend of the founders. Actually, Mike, how long have we known each other? It's been at least 10, maybe 15 years?Mike:Probably 2007 Seattle RB.Ben:Okay.Josh:Yeah. I was going to say you two have known each other much longer than I've even known Ben.Ben:Yeah.Josh:So you go back.Ben:Way back.Mike:Yep.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Yeah.Josh:Because I think Ben and I met in 2009.Ben:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Josh:Or something.Mike:Okay.Ben:Yeah, Mike and I have been hanging out for a long time.Mike:Yeah.Ben:We've known each other through many, many different jobs, and contracts, and so on. It's been awesome.Josh:Yeah, Mike, I feel like I've heard your name since... Yeah, for the last, at least, 10 years just working with Ben. You've always been in the background. And we've realized this is the first time we've actually met face to face, which is crazy. But it's great to... Yeah.Mike:Yeah.Josh:... have a face to put with the little... What is it, a cat avatar? Is a cat in your avatar? You've had that avatar for a really long time I feel like.Mike:Yeah, that's Wallace.Josh:Okay.Mike:So I'm Mond on GitHub and Twitter, and that cat avatar is our tuxedo cat, Wallace. And he is geriatric now. Hopefully he'll live another year. And if you remember in that era of Ruby, all of the Japanese Rubyists had cat icons. And so that was... I don't know. That's why Wallace is my icon.Josh:Yeah. Nice.Ben:So, so do Wallace and Goripav know each other?Mike:No, no, they don't. They're like best friends, right? They had to have met at Seattle RB.Ben:Yeah. Internet friends.Mike:Internet friends, yeah.Ben:Yeah. So, Mike is old school Ruby, way back, way back, yeah. But the other funny thing about the old Rubyists, all those Japanese Rubyists, I remember from RubyConf Denver... Was that 2007? Somewhere around there. I remember going to that and there were mats and a bunch of friends were sitting up at the front, and they all had these miniature laptops. I've never seen laptops so small. I don't know what they were, nine inch screens or something crazy.Mike:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:I was like, "How do you even type on that thing?" But it's a thing. So I guess... I don't know. I haven't been to Japan.Mike:There are laptops that you could only get in Japan and they flash them with some sort of Linux probably.Ben:Yeah. Yeah.Mike:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Josh:Okay. I wonder how long it took them to compile C on there.Mike:Yeah. So, about the orbit with the founders. So, I think I'd put it in my notes that I... And I consider myself a sliver of a Honeybadger in that I did have a conversation with Ben about joining the company. And then in 2017, I did do a little contracting with you guys, which is ironic in that... So we're probably going to talk about cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin. So the Bitcoin protocol is, essentially, on a four-year timer. And in 2017 was the last time that we were building up to, I guess, an explosive end to that cycle. And I had just been working at Salesforce at Desk.com, And I left because of Bitcoin. And then this year, four years later, I, again, just left Salesforce, but I just left from Heroku. And I didn't leave so much because of Bitcoin, I just got a better opportunity, and I'm a principal engineer at Okta, and I'm in the developer experience working on SDKs, primarily, the Golang SDK.Mike:So I think one of the things that they were happy about was that I had experience carrying the pager, and knowing what that's like, and they wanted to have an experienced engineer that would have empathy for the engineers to main the SDK. So I'm really excited to be here, because I'm not going to be carrying the pager, and it is the fun programming. What I imagine, listening to the founders, about the kind of fun programming that you guys get to do, working with different languages and whatnot. So, obviously right now, I'm starting out with Golang. We don't have a Ruby SDK, because OmniAuth provider is the thing that most people use. But, there's also PHP, and some Java, so I'm just looking forward to being able to do a bunch of different languages.Josh:Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. We don't know anything about SDK teams, Honeybadger. But yeah, it sounds like we have very similar jobs at the moment. So that's cool. We'll have to trade tips at some point. Yeah.Ben:Yeah, I'm excited that you're there, because I'm definitely going to hit you up on the SAML stuff, because SAML's a pain in the tuchus yeah, I'm sure you'll have some insights from your time there.Mike:Well, that was how I was even open-minded to talking to Okta, was the recruiter had contacted me and I think actually it was the recruiter... I don't know the structure of how this works, but a lot of companies have a prospecting recruiter. And I think that a veteran oriented prospecting recruiter contacted me. And so being a veteran, I'll usually entertain those cold calls. And so then when I was at Desk, I wrote... So Desk was a big Rails monolith. I wrote a microservice to break some of the SSO off of the monolith itself. And in writing the API documentation that was on desk.com, I actually used Okta as one of the examples as a SSO identity provider using SAML. So yeah, I have had a little bit of experience from the outside of Okta with SAML. And so maybe I'll have more experience here to answer your questions.Ben:Yeah. We'll have to have you back and we can just do a whole hour on that. It's a fun world.Josh:After we do an hour on SDKs.Ben:Yeah, and your code that you wrote for us still lives on in Honeybadger.Josh:Yeah. Was it the webpack? That was some of the work, right?Ben:Some of it, yeah.Mike:Yep.Josh:Yeah.Ben:And some GitHub integration work.Josh:And the integrations, yeah.Mike:Yeah, well if I remember correctly with the GitHub integration, I did do some GitHub integration, and it tickled your enthusiasm, Ben, and then I think you went in and like refactored that a little bit.Ben:Well, if you have a monolith like Redo that's been around for as long as ours has, things don't... It's like, what was that Theseus' ship, it's goes around the world but you replace things as it goes, and it's never the same app, right?Mike:Yeah, that's the thing, we had discussed this in the prelude around just software engineering in general and how hard it is to maintain a monolith, especially as a company grows and as developers come rolling into a project, you get all of these... Over time you get engineers with different goals, different techniques, different styles of touching your code base, to the point that it becomes very hard to maintain a project. And I think, I don't know if we're going to talk about Heroku at all, but I think that Heroku suffers from a little bit of that, where there's very few original Heroku that are involved in the runtime at least. And I just came from being on the runtime in the control plane. And, definitely, the code base there is... There's maybe one or two people that are still around that have touched that code base from the beginning.Ben:Yeah, let's dive into that, because that's fascinating to me. I know that there's been chatter on Twitter recently that people feel that Heroku is stagnated. That they haven't really brought a lot of innovative stuff to market recently. I remember, actually a funny story, I'm going to tell it myself. I can't remember what year this was, it were way... I don't know, I don't know, early 2000s. I was sitting as part of a focus group, and I can't reveal a lot of information because secrecy and stuff. But anyway, I was part of this focus group and I was asked as part of this group, what as a developer working on Ruby applications and Rails applications, what I thought about this new thing called Heroku. And had it explained to me, "Oh, you just get push", and "Blah, blah, blah", and I poo-pooed the idea. I was like, "Nah, I'm not interested", because I already know how to deploy stuff. I've got Mongrel, I got a DVS.Josh:Say Mongrel.Ben:I know how to use SEP, why do I need this? Like Math, never going to catch on. And so don't follow me for investing advice.Mike:Yeah, totally.Josh:I got my Linodes.Mike:Yeah. Or even back then, I wrote all of my own chef, so I got my own recipes I can-Ben:Right, exactly.Mike:... bare metal at will.Ben:Exactly. So, what do you think, you've been at Heroku, you've seen this process of people having to maintain this code base over a long period of time. What are some tips for people who might be a little earlier on the process? Looking down the road, what do you suggest people think about for having a more maintainable application?Mike:That's interesting. I really think that there is not one size fits all, and actually some of the things that are specific to Heroku, and actually to desk.com when I was there previously, that some of the issues actually stem from Salesforce culture and the way that Salesforce manages its businesses. And so, I guess the thing that I've always liked about Rails, specifically, is that the conventions that are used in Rails, you can drop an experienced Rails developer pretty much into any Rails app and they're going to know the basic conventions. And that saves you so much time to ramping up and bringing your experience into a project. Whereas when you get into bespoke software, then you run into well what were the architectural design patterns 10 years ago compared to now? How much drift has there been in libraries and the language, depending.Mike:And so that is... I don't... That's a very hard question to nail down in a specific way. I would just say in spit balling this, conventions are very important, I would say. So as long as you have a conventions using a framework, then I think that you'll get to go a long ways. However, if you start to use a framework, then you get the everything is a nail and I'm going to use my hammer framework on that. Which is its own thing that I've seen in Ruby, where if you start a project with Rails, I don't think everybody realizes this, but you are essentially going to be doing a type of software development that is in the mindset of Basecamp, right? And if you have an app that is not quite like Basecamp, and then you start to try to extending Rails to do something different, then you're going to start running into issues. And I think that... It makes me sad when I hear people talk poorly about Rails, because oftentimes people are just pushing it into a direction that it's not built to do. Whether they're, like in the old days, like monkey-patching libraries, or whatnot.Ben:Yeah, I think we saw that with the rise of Elixir and Phoenix, right? José just got frustrated with wanting to do some real time stuff. And that really wasn't the wheelhouse for Rails, right? And so he went and built Elixir and Phoenix, and built on top of that. And that became a better hammer for that particular nail than Rails, right? So now if you come into a new project and you're like, "Well, I'm going to do a lot of highly concurrent stuff", well, okay, maybe Rails isn't the best solution. Maybe you should go look at Elixir and Phoenix instead.Mike:Yeah. Yeah. So, with Heroku, I just want to say that it was so awesome to work at Heroku, and the day that I got a job offer to work there, it was like... I still, if I'm having a bad day, I still think about that, and the... I've never used hard drugs, but I would think that somebody that was cocaine high, that's probably what I was feeling when I got the offer from Heroku. I started using Heroku in 2009, and it has a story within our community, it's highly respected. And so I just want to say that I still think very highly of Heroku, and if I was to be doing just a throwaway project, and I just want to write some code and do git push main, or git push Heroku main, then I would definitely do that.Mike:And we were... And I'm not very experienced with the other kinds of competitors right now. I think, like you pointed him out, is it Vercel and Render?Ben:Render. Mm-hmm (affirmative).Mike:Yeah. So I can't really speak to them. I can really just speak to Heroku and some of the very specific things that go on there. I think one of the issues that Heroku suffers from is not the technology itself, but just the Salesforce environment. Because at Salesforce, everything eventually has to be blue, right? And so, Heroku, I don't think they ever could really figure out the right thing to do with Heroku. As well as, the other thing about enterprise software is that if I'm selling Salesforce service cloud or whatever, I'm selling, essentially, I'm selling seats of software licenses. And there's no big margin in selling Compute, because if I'm buying Compute, I expect to be using that.Mike:And so, as a salesperson, I'm not incented to sell Heroku that much because there's just not margins for me in the incentive structure that they have at sales within Salesforce. So I think that's the biggest thing that Heroku has going against it, is that it's living in a Salesforce environment. And as, I guess, a owner of Salesforce being that I have Salesforce stock, I would hope that they would maximize their profits and actually sell Heroku. Who knows, maybe a bunch of developers get together and actually buy the brand and spin that off. That would be the best thing, because I think that Salesforce would probably realize a lot more value out of Heroku just by doing that, even if there's some sort of profit sharing, and then not have to deal with all the other things.Ben:Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah. The thing about billing, and then selling per user, versus the compute- That's definitely a different world. It's a totally different mindset. And I think Josh that we have now been given a directive step. We should acquire Heroku as part of Honeybadger.Josh:I was going to say, maybe we can acquire it with all of our Doge profits in five or 10 years from now.Mike:Well, yeah. Somebody spin a Heroku coin, a ERC20 token on Ethereum and get everybody to dump their Ethereum into this token.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Mike:Get that pot of money together. And then that is the Heroku Foundation. Yeah, exactly.Josh:Okay, yeah.Mike:The Heroku Foundation that buys the Heroku brand. I know that we're laughing about it, but actually this is what is possible today. And, I was telling Ben... Well, let me just say a couple of things about the FounderQuest and how it relates to me, is I've been listening to FounderQuest from the first episode, and I'm an only child, and I like to listen to podcasts. So I'll be on my afternoon walk, and I'll be hearing you guys talk, and I'm having this conversation along with you guys listening to the podcasts.Mike:And so, I think, in January, you guys were talking about, or maybe Ben was talking about, $30,000 Bitcoin, and you guys just had your yucks and laughs about it. And it actually made me think critically about this, because I've been involved with Bitcoin since about 2012, and it's like, "Do I have a tinfoil hat on?" Or what do I think? And so, I'm not joking about this, listening to you guys actually has helped me concretely come up with how I feel about this. And first off, I think, I'm bullish on technology. And this is the first epiphany that I had, is all of us have had a career close to Linux, close to Ruby, building backend services, close to virtualization and orchestration. Fortunately, that's been my interest, and fortunately that's been where our industry has gone. And so, when Bitcoin came out, as technologists, all you ever hear, if you don't know anything about Bitcoin, you just hear currency. And you're thinking internet money, you're not thinking about this as a technologist.Mike:And so that was the thing. I wish that Bitcoin had been talked about as a platform, or a framework.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Mike:And not even called it coin. Because that confuses the issue-Josh:The whole coin thing, just... Yeah.Mike:Yeah, totally. And mining the metaphors-Josh:That alone.Mike:... just totally throws everything off. Because we are talking, we're laughing about it, but this is really possible today. We could come up with a Foundation to buy Heroku with a cryptocurrency, and it would... Yeah. So that's one thing that Ben helped me realize in my thinking around Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. And I think I'm just bullish on technology. And so to me, again, across our career, there's been so much change. And why would we look at Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies any differently than any other kind of technology? Even a hundred dollar bill with all the holograms on it, that is a kind of financial technology. And so we're just talking about a digital technology, we're not talking about coins I guess.Josh:That's the appeal, a lot of the Altcoins, right? They give everyone a way to invest in those companies, whereas before you would have to... Whatever, be an accredited investor or something to be able to get involved. Is that part of the appeal? I'm probably showing what I know about crypto, which is very little, but I'm excited to... Yeah, maybe you can...Mike:Yeah. Yeah, so I feel like these projects are... I'm not a VC, and I'm not an insider, but from what I can see from afar, in Silicon Valley there's a close group of people that have access to all of these ideas. And there's Angel clubs, and VC clubs, and whatnot, that are funding these startups. And to me, I feel like these crypto projects are the same kind of thing, except for they're just available to the public. And so, I think if I was speaking to another technologist that was interested in cryptocurrencies, is you probably need to get your hands on some of the technology in order to get experience with it.Mike:And so if that means you figure out how to maybe mine some coin on your laptop, or whatever, or you actually pay for it, you should at least have some in your possession, and at least learn about the custodial part of it. Also, there's different software libraries now to actually do programming against it, and platforms, I believe. So that'd be another way to at least tickle your curiosity, is by actually touching the technology and not thinking about the value. So yeah.Ben:Yeah. That, to me, that's one of the most interesting things about the whole coin thing. My younger son is really interested in the crypto space, in the coin and in the other parts of a distributed ledger, and what does that mean, and how does that work? And before I heard about NFTs, he was talking about NFTs. And so it's really interesting to me to see this coming from him. Just yesterday, we had a conversation about CRDTs, right? Because we're talking about how do you merge transactions that are happening in distributed fashion? Right? I was like, "Oh yeah", and it's so weird to have my teenage sons' world colliding with my world in this way.Josh:Yeah.Ben:But it's a lot of fun. And I've got to say, Mike, I got to give you back some credit, talking about the whole coin thing. As you've heard, we're pretty coin skeptical here at Honeybadger, the Founders, but you made a comment in our pre-show conversation. And maybe you didn't make this explicitly, but maybe it's just a way that I heard it. But I think... Well what I heard was, and maybe you actually said this, was basically think about this like an index fund, right? You put dollar cost to averaging, right? You put some money into coin, you put a little bit, it's not going to be your whole portfolio, right? But you don't treat it like a gamble, and you just treat it like an investment, like you would other things that may appreciate in value. And of course you may not.Ben:And so, as a result, I decided, "Okay, I can do that. I can put a little bit of my portfolio into coins". So just this week, and this is the funny part, just this week-Josh:I'm just finding this out now, by the way.Ben:Yeah, yeah. Josh is like... I told my wife about this last night and she was like, "What's Josh going to say?" "Like, I don't know". So anyway, just this week I put a little bit of money into Bitcoin and Ethereum. And that was... When did Elon do his thing about Bitcoin? Was that Thursday morning?Josh:Oh yeah.Ben:I bought, two hours before Elon did his thing, and Bitcoin lost 15% of its value.Mike:That's awesome.Ben:I'm like, "It's okay. It's okay, I'm just putting-Josh:Yeah, you don't sell, it doesn't matter.Mike:What was your emotion? What was your emotion?Ben:Yeah, totally. Yeah. In fact, my first buy, I used Coinbase. And Coinbase was like, "Oh, do you want to do this periodically?" I'm like, "Yes, I do. Every month". Boom.Mike:Oh.Ben:I went ahead and set that up like so, yeah.Mike:Oh, I did not know you could do that.Ben:I'm in it to win it, man.Mike:You should get a hardware wallet. That's the next thing, is you need to learn how to handle your own custody, so-Josh:Right, yeah. You got to... Yeah.Mike:Not leave it on the exchange. Interesting.Josh:Get those hard drives.Mike:Yeah.Josh:Yeah. Ben's a veteran indexer though. So you can handle some dips. Some volatility.Ben:Yeah. Yeah.Josh:I actually, I did make some money off of Bitcoin back in the day, and probably if I would've just held onto it, I would've made a lot more, of course.Mike:Same.Josh:So I accidentally... Back, I don't know when this was, it was maybe five years ago or something, when Bitcoin was going through one of its first early hype cycles, and I was like, "I'll check it". I was learning about it, of course. And so I went and bought some and I think I ran a blockchain Elixir app that someone made, to see how the transactions work and stuff. Read some books on Bitcoin. But I bought some Bitcoin, I can't remember how much, but just left it. I think this was after Coinbase had launched, I'm pretty sure I bought it through Coinbase. But yeah, I just left it, and then that was when it was in the first huge push of Bitcoin where it went up to 20,000 or something. And I remembered that I had it, and I went and looked and oh yeah, I made five grand or something. I put hardly anything into it initially. So I forget what I actually bought with that money. I just sold it and it's like cool, free money.Mike:So you just sold it this year? Or you sold it...Josh:No, I sold it back-Mike:In 17?Josh:I think I sold it at 20... Yeah, this would have been at 17 that I actually sold it, probably.Mike:Did you report it on your taxes, your capital gains?Josh:I did, yes. Yeah, I did.Ben:That's the benefit of having an accountant, because your accountant reminds you, "You know what? You did have some Bitcoin transactions, you should probably look at those".Josh:Can I say on here that I actually put some of it through a Bitcoin tumbler though, just to see how those work?Mike:Yeah, I mean...Josh:And that was a very small amount of money, but I didn't actually report that on my taxes. Because I think I actually forgot where it was or something.Ben:You'll have to explain what a Bitcoin tumbler is.Josh:So a Bitcoin tumbler... Well, I'll try, and then maybe Mike might explain it better, but a Bitcoin tumbler is basically how you anonymize your Bitcoin transaction. If you have some Bitcoin and you want to buy some drugs on the dark web or something, you go and you send your Bitcoin to this tumbler, and then it distributes it to a bunch of random Bitcoin addresses that it gives you. And then you have those addresses, and they're anonymized, because they've been sent through a bunch of peoples' wallets, or something like that.Mike:Yep. That's basically it.Ben:So it's basically money laundering.Josh:Yeah, it's laundering.Mike:Yeah. But if your privacy... I mean, okay-Josh:Yeah, no, I get it. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Because part of the appeal of Bitcoin is some people are just like, "Oh yeah, good money, credit card transactions are so... The governments are recording them and stuff, the NSA probably has a database of them". So Bitcoin is anonymous, but it's not. It's not anonymous. And yeah. So that's why people do this, right?Mike:Yeah. Well that, to me, that's if you want to... So the value of Bitcoin, if you want to get bullish on the value of Bitcoin, the traditional outlook is yeah, the silk road was going on and there's all this illegal stuff going on. Therefore it must be bad. But actually, to me, that's the thing, you know it's good if there's illicit stuff going on, because what's the number one currency that's used right now for illicit transactions? It's dirty US dollar bills. And if you're a drug dealer in central South America, you are collecting, dollar bills United States. You're paying some sort of transport probably at 10, 15% cost to get those dollars back to wherever you're going to hold them. And so, if you're using Bitcoin, you're probably not going to pay that fee. So, to me, it's like okay, that actually proves, at least in my mind, that there is value. That it's being used, right?Josh:Yeah. And you also, you don't want to see... Some people are fanatics about cash going away, even just because as more people move to digital transactions, whether it's just through, whatever, traditional networks, or through crypto. People are using less and less cash. And I feel like, whatever... Like Richard Stallman, he pays for everything in cash though, because he thinks that cash is going to go away someday. And that's a problem for privacy, because you do want a way to pay for things in private in some cases.Mike:Yep. I agree.Josh:Yeah.Ben:My only real beef with Bitcoin, well, aside from the whole requiring power plants just to do a transaction, is that there is Badger coin. This company that is named Honeybadger, it's all about Bitcoin. And they have these ATM's in Canada, and we constantly get support requests from people.Mike:Oh really?Josh:Is this the reason that we've been so down on cryptocurrencies in the past?Ben:I think so.Josh:Because ever since the beginning, since people started making coins, Badger coin came out and then it's been our primary exposure to be honest.Ben:It has been, yeah.Josh:Throughout the past... I don't know how many years it's been. Has it been six-Ben:Yeah, six-Josh:... to eight years?Ben:Yeah, something like that. It's been nuts.Josh:I'd say.Mike:You should send them an invoice, and they actually-Ben:Yeah, so what happens is they had these kiosks where you can buy Bitcoin, right? You put your real money in, and you get your fake money out, right? And the name on the top of the kiosk is Honeybadger. So, someone puts in some money, real money, and they don't get their fake money, then all of a sudden they're upset, right?Mike:Yeah.Ben:And so they... For whatever reason, it doesn't go through, right, I don't know how this works, I've never bought Bitcoin at a kiosk. But so, they're like, "Okay, Honeybadger". And so they Google Honeybadger, and the first result for Honeybadger is us. And so they're like, "Oh, here's a phone number I can call". And they call us. And they're like, "Where's my Bitcoin?" That's like, "Uh, I really can't help you with that".Josh:They do.Ben:"You stole my Bitcoin". It's like, "No, that's not us".Josh:Something just occurred to me. I wonder how many of them are just confused over the fact that Bitcoin transactions can take a while to arrive now, right? It's not always instantaneous, where it used to be a lot faster, but now I know that it can take a while to clear. So I wonder how many of those people are emailing us in the span... Maybe that's why they eventually always go away and we don't hear from them again. Maybe it's not that they're getting help, but it's just that their Bitcoins are arriving. Yeah. I have a feeling that there's some sort of... I'm guessing these are mostly regular normies using, and interacting with this very highly technical product and experience, and even if you're walking up to a kiosk, but there's still a highly technical aspect of it that, like you said Mike, people are thinking coin, they're thinking... The way this maps to their brain is it's like dollar bills. So they're looking at it like an ATM. Yep.Mike:Yeah. When it comes to cryptocurrency and the technology, I don't want to have to think about custody, or any of that other kinds of stuff. It'll be successful when it just is happening, I'm not thinking about it. They're already... In some... I don't know all of the different mobile devices, but I do carry out an iPhone. And so, the wallet on iPhone is pretty seamless now, right? And so I'm not thinking about how that technology is working. I had to associate an Amex with it originally, right? But once I've done that, then all I do is click my button to pay. And there you go. And so I do think that the cryptocurrency technology has a long way to go towards that, because if normal people, the non nerds, have to think about it, then it's not going to be useful. Because in the end-Josh:Yeah.Mike:... humans use tools, right? And so, whatever the tool is, they're going to use it especially if it's easy and it makes their life easier.Ben:So what I really want to know, Mike, is what are your feelings about Dogecoin? Are you bullish on Doge?Mike:Well, I'll answer that, but I wanted to come back to the bit about the NFT, and just talking about the possibilities with technology. And I think that you guys could profit from this.Ben:I like where it's going.Mike:You'll have to do some more research. But I think what you could do... See, I love the origin story of Honeybadger. And maybe not everybody knows about the Honeybadger meme from what is... When was this, two thousand...Ben:2012? 2011?Mike:Yeah, okay. So not everybody... Yeah, bot everybody knows about the meme. I guess, just go Google-Ben:I can link it in the show notes.Josh:It's long dead. This meme is long dead.Mike:Is it? Well it's still awesome. I still love it.Josh:It is.Mike:So, there's so many facets of this that I love. The first one is that... Can I name names on competitors-Ben:Of course.Mike:... in the origins? Okay. So the first one was is that Airbrake, an exception reporting service, was doing a poor job with their customer service. And you guys were like, "We're working on this project, we need exception reporting. It's not working". It's like, "Well, can we just take their library, and build our own backend?" Right? And to me, that is beautiful. And in thinking about this episode, in Heroku, the same opportunity lies for an aspiring developer out there where you could just take the Heroku CLI and point it at your own false backend until you figure out all of the API calls that happen. And I don't know, you have that backed by Kubernetes, or whatever orchestration framework is...Mike:There is the possibility that you could do the same Honeybadger story with Airbrake SDK, as there is with the Heroku CLI. So that's the first thing I love about the Honeybadger story, and the fact the name goes along with the fact that Airbrake had poor customer support, and you guys just were like, "F it, we're going to build our own exception reporting service". Now, in the modern context with NFTs is... I have old man experience with the NFTs in that GIFs, or GIFs, and JPEGs, this is BS that people are gouging for profit. However, the technology of the NFT... This is the thing that I think is beautiful, is that... And I'm not sure which of the NFTs does this, but there is the possibility that you could be the originator of a digital object, and then you sell that digital object. And then as that digital object is traded, then you, as the, I guess, the original creator, you can get a percentage of the sales for the lifetime of that digital asset.Ben:Yeah.Mike:And, I'm not sure which of the NFTs allows that, but that is one of the things, that's one of the value propositions in NFT. So what I was thinking is if you guys did an NFT on the shaw of the original Honeybadger Ruby SDK check-in, that this could be the thing that you guys have an experiment with, is you have real skin in the game, you're playing with the technology and see if that works. And, let me know if you do that, because I might try to buy it. So, we'll see.Josh:Well, we've already got a buyer, why wouldn't we?Mike:Yeah, so..Ben:Indeed, yeah.Josh:See I was thinking maybe you could own various errors or something in Honeybadger.Mike:Yeah, I mean... Whatever digital signature you want to... Whatever you want to sign, and then assign value to.Josh:Yeah, we could NFT our Exceptional Creatures.Mike:Yeah.Josh:Have you seen that, Mike? Have you seen that project?Mike:Yep, yep.Josh:Okay.Mike:I'm well aware of that. Yep.Ben:Yeah. I'm thinking what about open source maintainers, right? Let's say you have this project and someone really wants a particular feature, right? Or they're really happy about a particular feature that you've already done, right? You can sell them that shaw, that commit, that put it into name, right?Mike:Yeah, totally.Ben:You are the proud owner of this feature. Thank you.Mike:Yeah, totally. Yeah, I was hoping that I would come with some ideas. I hope someday in the future that I run into somebody and it's like, "Oh, we heard that podcasts were where ideas were free ideas that were worth a lot of money were thrown about. And I did this project, and now I'm retired. Thank you, Mike". Honeybadgers.Josh:Wait, so Ben are you saying that, so as a committer, so say I commit something to Rails, submit a PR, so then I own that PR once it's merged and it would be like I could sell that then to someone? Is that along the lines of what you're saying?Ben:No, I'm thinking the owner of the project. So, if you commit something to Rails, and you're really excited about it, and you for some reason want to have a trophy of that commit-Josh:Right.Ben:... on a plaque on the wall, right? Then the Rails core group could sell you that token.Josh:Okay. Gotcha.Ben:That trophy, that certificate, like, "Yep. This is your thing. Commissioned by..." It's like naming a star, right?Josh:Yeah.Ben:You buy the rights to a star, and it's fake stuff, right? We're naming stars. But that's the same idea.Josh:Yeah. So you could use that same idea to incentivize open-source contribution. So if you make the PR to Rails and it gets merged, you get this NFT for the PR merge, which you could then actually profit for if it was... Say it was, I don't know, turbo links or something, whatever. Years later, when it's a huge thing and everyone in Rails is using it, maybe Mike's going to come along and be like, "Hey, I'll buy... I want to own the PR for turbo links".Ben:Right.Josh:Yeah. And of course then, you, as the owner, would also profit from any sale between parties later on too. You'd get that little percentage.Mike:Yeah. Well, so when somebody comes up with committer coin, just remember me, I want to airdrop of some committer coin.Josh:We have a name. We've got a name for it. Commit coin.Ben:I've got a new weekend project ahead of me.Mike:Yeah.Josh:Cool. Well, that helps me understand NFTs.Ben:Yeah, I really like the idea of being able to sell ownership rights to a digital asset. That I think a good idea. I don't know that the current implementation that we see on the news is a great implementation of that idea. Buying the rights for a copy of a JPEG, it feels kind of sketchy to me. But maybe there's some sort of, I don't know, PDF document that has some sort of value for some reason. And you can give that, sell that to someone. And to me, it's not so much about the profit, or the transaction, it's the ownership. You can say I am the owner of this thing. Yeah, there can be copies all over the place, but I'm the person that has the ownership, quote unquote, of this thing.Josh:Yeah, yeah. But then you've got to define value Ben. What is value? Okay, so, what makes a PDF more valuable than a JPEG?Mike:Yeah. Yeah. Bring this back to Dogecoin, and value propositions, and whatnot. What is valuable? When you're talking about the value of a JPEG, this reminded me of a conversation I was having with my son. He's 10 years old and he wanted some money to buy, I don't know what it was, and old man voice came out of me and it's like, "That's BS. I don't think that's valuable". And he looked at me and he was like, "It's valuable to me". And it's like, "Oh, you just put a dagger in my heart. I'm killing your dream". And one person's value may not be another person's value. So, on the Dogecoin, that's interesting. Dogecoin is very interesting to me, because I feel like I'm in a quantum state with a Dogecoin where it is a joke, but at the same time it apparently it has value.Mike:And I don't know where I stand on that threshold. I know how to trade Dogecoin. And I know the behavior of Dogecoin, and the behaviors, from a trading standpoint, has changed substantially in the last six months. Before it was a pump and dump kind of thing. Well, actually, you know what? When Dogecoin was first created, its purpose was highlighted by the community. People in podcast land don't realize this, but I'm wearing a 2017 Dogecoin shirt from when the Dogecoin community sponsored the number 98 NASCAR. And the thing of the community was like, "Oh, we have all this money, and we're just being altruistic and we're giving it away". And so they were exercising their belief with this currency, right?Mike:And from then, till now, there was a bit of a cycle to Dogecoin where you could, if you acquired Dogecoin for say under a hundred Satoshis, this is the Dogecoin BTC pair, that was actually a good buy. Just wait for the next pump when somebody does something, and Dogecoin goes over 200, or 300 Satoshis, and then you dump it. And that's basically what I did on this in the last six months. I had a small bag of Dogecoin waiting for the next pump and dump. And I actually did that, but it kept on getting pumped, and then it would stabilize. And then now we're at the point where apparently Elon Musk and Mark Cuban are saying that there's value to it.Mike:And to me, I actually put a lot of credence to that, because these are two public persons that they cannot... If they're pumping things in the public domain, then they have risk, right? And so you can't be those two people, and be pumping, and not run the risk of the FTC of the United States government coming in and saying, "Hey, why were you doing this?" So there's the, I guess for me, a small bit of a guarantee that maybe there is something to Dogecoin.Josh:Yeah. See, the way I think, when you first started you were saying it is a joke, but you're in this dual state, and my initial or immediate thought was it is a joke, but this is the internet, and the internet loves to make silly things real.Mike:Yeah, yeah.Josh:Especially these days.Ben:Yeah. It's pretty funny for all those people that made a bunch of money on GameStop, right? Yeah.Mike:Yeah. Well that's the thing, is in Dogecoin, Doge is, of itself, from a meme from the same time period as Honeybadger, right? The Iba Shinu doggie, right? So, the other thing I don't understand, or the thing that I understand but I don't know how to quantify it for myself, is that, to me... So there's no pre-mine on Dogecoin. There's no one person that owns a lot of Dogecoin from the beginning. Whereas if we're talking about Ethereum, Vitalik Buterin, the founder, or one of the founders of Ethereum, they pre-mined Ethereum, and there's a ton of Ethereum that's owned by the founders. Whereas you compare that to, say, Litecoin, Charlie Lee cloned Bitcoin and created Litecoin. He sold all of his Litecoin. I believed in him when he said he's sold it all. He's a software engineer, just like us. He was Director of Engineering at Coinbase.Mike:He doesn't seem like he's wearing tinfoil hat out there, doing conspiracies. So when he says that he sold his coin in 2017, all of his Litecoin, I totally believe that. Yet today, he is the chairperson of the Litecoin foundation. And so, to me... I actually do have, I placed some value in the benevolence of Litecoin and Dogecoin, because there's not any one person that actually controls it. I guess Charlie Lee, he probably has a stronger voice than most. But he doesn't control the levers.Josh:Not financially.Mike:Yeah.Josh:Yeah.Mike:Yeah. And so then with Dogecoin... So Dogecoin, it'll be awesome if it gets above a dollar, but the structure of Dogecoin will be such as they cannot maintain that.Josh:Right.Mike:Because it's an inflation-Josh:There's no cap, right?Mike:Right.Josh:Yeah.Mike:It's inflation. And so, I don't know the number, I think it's a million Dogecoin are minted every day. So, 10 years from now, if Dogecoin is worth a dollar still, then that means Bitcoin will be worth a lot more than that. So I guess that'd be awesome if Dogecoin stays a dollar. However, the point I'm trying to make is actually there is value in having an inflationary currency, especially if we're talking about living in the structure of our current financial... The way that our current financial markets work, where there is an inflation.Mike:And so if I want to be transacting with a digital currency, I don't want to have to be, say, like having an Argentina kind of moment where my one Dogecoin is worth $5 American today, and then maybe only $3 American a week from now. So to me, I think there is value in Dogecoin in that it's inflationary, and that it will not be as susceptible to speculation bubbles as other currencies. And so, I don't know if that answers your questions on the value of Dogecoin, but those are a couple of reasons why I think that Dogecoin is valuable. Now, am I going to be holding a big bag of Dogecoin in 2022? Probably not. Just to be honest.Ben:We're all about honesty at Honeybadger. I love the episodes where we have to have a disclaimer, this is not financial advice. Please consult competent professionals before investing, et cetera, et cetera. Mike, it has been a delight to have you with us. We appreciate your counterbalance to our coin pessimism that we have amongst the Honeybadger fan base.Josh:Yeah, I think we needed this.Ben:Yeah.Josh:We really needed this.Ben:We really did.Josh:So thank you.Ben:It's been good.Mike:Yeah. Oh, I got one more idea out there. Hopefully, somebody can run with this, is I've been trying to get motivated to do some experimentation with the Bitcoin lightning network. We didn't really talk about these a layer two solutions for scaling, but I think that there is a lot of potential in coming up with an interesting project that lays within the Litecoin* network, it has its value in and of itself, but there's a secondary value of being a note on the Litecoin* network where if there's transactions going through your node, let's say, I don't know how you'd instrument this, but let's say that Honeybadger actually was... That you guys were taking your payments across your own lightning node, then all of the transactions that are going across the lightning network, you're getting a small fee, right? So I think that there's the possibility of a micropayments kind of play there, like for instance, paying by the exception. I mean, literally-*Editor's note from Mike - "in my excitement talking about the Lighting Network I slipped and said Litecoin a couple of times between Lightning Network. Lightning Network is a layer 2 protocol that is primarily intended for scaling Bitcoin and that was what I meant. However, Lightning can be implemented to run on top of Litecoin and Ethereum."Josh:That has come up that has come up in the past, I think at one point.Mike:You can't do micro payments on a credit card.Josh:Yeah.Mike:Right? But you can do micropayments on lightening network. And I'm not selling you guys on this, but I'm saying that there's going to be some nerd out there that it's like, "Oh my God micropayments are here, I can do micropayments on lighting network". And then they're going to do well on that product, but then they're also going to do well on the commission that they're earning on payments going through their node.Josh:This could be used for usage base software as a service billing model.Ben:Totally. And then you get the skim off the top, just like a good affiliate does.Mike:Yes.Ben:I love it.Mike:Yes.Ben:I love it. All right. All right, Mike, we're going to have to do some scheming together. Well, any final words, any parting words besides go by all the Dogecoin that you can?Mike:Yeah. Don't put all your money into the cryptocurrencies. Yeah.Josh:Seems like good advice.Ben:Be smart

Show notes:Links:Threads.comBlueyVogmaskTwistIt’s a Southern ThingIf I had a front porchFull transcript:Josh:How y'all doing?Ben:I'm doing.Starr:Yeah, about the same.Ben:I've been riding my scooter to work all week.Starr:Oh, how's that?Ben:It's a lot of fun. Got a little electric kick scooter and top speed about 25 miles per hour. I was concerned about it being able to get up the hill that I have to go back up on my way home. It does drag a bit on that hill. I only got a single motor. Guess I should have gone with the dual motor. Otherwise it's fun. It's nice to be out in nature, I guess, air quotes, because you're still on the road and you're still a victim of cars and stuff. Being able to see the sun coming up over the hills and down to the valley and while you're just feeling the wind on your face, it's all good.Josh:It sounds nice.Ben:Yeah.Starr:Yeah, sounds awesome. I don't know. It seems terrifying to me, but I'm sure it's a lot of fun.Ben:It helped that I have done a lot of bike riding on roads for the past several years, so I'm already comfortable with the idea of mixing it up with cars and weaving in and out of traffic and realizing that people aren't going to see me and things like that. I think if I had just gone from driving a car straight to riding a scooter in the bike lane, that would be a little more terrifying.Starr:Yeah, that makes sense.Josh:Next you're going to have to upgrade to one of the electric skateboards or a Onewheel or something, just remove the handle bars.Ben:Right, right, right. Get one of those Onewheel things.Josh:This is leading up to-Ben:Totally.Starr:We're just working up to hoverboards. I mean I commute to my backyard office, so maybe I should get a zip-line or something from the main house.Ben:I like that, yeah.Starr:... then I could be extreme.Josh:We want a zip-line at our place out into the forest.Starr:That would be fun.Ben:You could do a zip-line from your deck to the sandbox, send the kids out to play.Josh:The kids would love it. Well, I was thinking more for myself though. Screw the kids. They don't need a zip-line.Starr:There you go. That's actually not a bad idea. We're going to get-Josh:That would be cool though.Starr:... a deck in the fall.Josh:Oh, nice.Starr:I had thought it would be fun to put a fireman pole on one side or something so kids could slide down it. It's raised up a little bit but not that much. It's like a kid's sliding size.Ben:That would be totally awesome. That would-Josh:We have been loving our new deck that we have had for a month and a half or something now. It's a new deck. If you have a really old, rickety deck, a new one is a big upgrade. Also ours is a little bit larger, too, so it's like a bigger house almost.Starr:Oh, that's great. We don't even have a deck it's just like a little stairway.Josh:I think you're going to like it, Starr.Starr:I think so, too. I know, deck life. It's going to be covered. I was just like-Josh:It's just the small things.Starr:I know. All I want is to be able to go out on a nice evening or something and sit and drink a cup of tea and be outside.Ben:And think about all-Josh:I was going to say, where do you drink the sweet tea in the summer if you don't have a front porch?Starr:Yeah, that's the main problem with houses up here in the Northwest is there's not real front porches. We have one that's like a weird nod at a front porch. It's like somebody maybe had seen a front porch once when they were... They were like, "Oh, maybe I'll try and do that from memory," without really knowing what it's supposed to be like.Josh:Some of the ones in Portland have them, but they're boxed in usually, and they're the older houses-Josh:... like the old Craftsmans or whatever.Starr:The stately grand dames.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Ben:Well, here in Kirkland we're destroying all those old houses and putting in-Starr:Thank God.Ben:... townhouses.Josh:Hell, yeah.Ben:I drove by one this morning. This morning was the first morning since I got my scooter that I actually didn't ride the scooter because it was raining and the ground was wet. I was like, "Ah, I don't want to deal with that this morning." So I just drove. I drove past this house that... Well, yesterday it was a house. Today, it's a pile of sticks because they sold the lot, and they're going to split it into probably, I don't know, four lots and put in some townhouses. It's always a sad thing, but people got to have a place to live.Starr:Yeah, it's a shame. They tore down a house on my block, too, except it was a condemned house. It looked like a gingerbread fairy house that you'd find on just a random stroll in the woods where you'd go inside and you'd find just a delicious meal laid out on the table just waiting for you. So I'm a little sad it's gone just for, I guess, the storytelling aspects, the mythology of it. I guess it's probably best not to just have a condemned structure hanging out.Josh:I still do feel like Ida's is missing out with your telling of that story. I feel a little sad for you all.Starr:I know. I know.Ben:You're totally missing the threat possibility there. Like, "Don't misbehave or I'll send you over to the gingerbread house."Starr:Oh my god, yeah. Yeah, lots of great ways to traumatize my child.Ben:Speaking of traumatizing children, I was going through Twitter the other day, and the Washington State Department of Health had a tweet. I don't remember what the tweet was, but they had a GIF embedded in it. It was Stimpy from Ren & Stimpy as a scene from the show. I was like, "That's from the Department of Health? My generation is now in charge."Starr:With the Twitter account at least.Ben:We're now putting in-Josh:Yeah, exactly.Ben:That was the weirdest... It's like, "I'm an adult." That was a weird, weird experience.Josh:It is kind of strange when the people in charge start looking more and more like you until you realize they're just like-Ben:They're just little kids, just like I am.Josh:Then you wonder why the hell they're in charge.Starr:I'm getting like Paul Ryan listening to a Rage Against the Machine vibe from this.Josh:That's what I'd be playing if I was in charge of the Department of Health's-Starr:There we go.Josh:... Twitter account.Starr:I think this week has all been a little bit... I don't know. We're all maybe a little bit having a hard time focusing. I know I have a little bit just. It seems like that happens every spring as soon as the weather gets nice and it stops being nice, then it gets nice and it stops being nice. You're waiting by the door with your kayak. You just got to get the jump on it before everybody else gets to the lake.Josh:Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. Also allergies have been kicking in lately.Starr:Oh my god, yeah.Josh:I was really on top of it this year, but then I ran out of my Zyrtec or whatever. It was on the list to replenish the supply or whatever, but I procrastinated and missed a few days. That's a huge mistake.Starr:Oh, yeah.Josh:That was this week. Now I switched to Claritin, so we'll see how... That's the big news of my week.Starr:Oh my gosh. I'm getting vaccinated later today, my second dose.Josh:Nice.Starr:Yeah.Josh:Congrats.Starr:I think I'm still going to keep wearing the KN95 respirators outside, though, just for the allergies.Josh:It's probably a good call.Ben:I was helping a neighbor with some yard work and doing a bunch of weeding and had the weed whacker out, and there's just dirt flying everywhere. I'm like, "Man, I should really wear a mask." Like, how ironic. I've got like, I don't know, a thousand masks in my house, and I'm not wearing one as I'm doing all this dusty stuff.Josh:That's a good thing to do.Starr:Oh, this is reminding me, I need to stock up before fire season.Ben:A few years ago when we had the really bad fire season, we got some Vogmasks. This was before the world knew that you were supposed to wear masks. Vogmasks are fantastic. They're a fabric mask that have the filtering stuff on the inside and highly recommend. I'll put a link in the show notes.Starr:Cool.Ben:Good stuff. When the pandemic hit, of course, they were out of stock immediately because everybody and their brother wanted one, but they've been back in stock. They're nice masks. They're really nice.Starr:Well, one thing that we have been doing is casually just checking out alternatives to Basecamp for our internal company's message board. I don't know. I feel like we're just perusing the alternatives. Honestly, it's been a little bit difficult finding just a system out there that's just a simple thread and message board without a million complex adjustments for running a forum that has thousands of people. Somebody on Twitter yesterday recommended Threads. I don't know. I think we're currently evaluating that one but no decisions yet.Josh:Is that like Twitter threads? You just-Starr:Oh, yeah, just Twitter threads.Josh:We do all of our communicating but just public threads.Starr:No, we're just going to use Twitter stories. We're just going to take some pics of ourselves in different-Josh:If we're trying to go to the opposite direction of Basecamp, we could just... Well, I guess this is like Basecamp, just do all of our communication via thought leadership.Starr:There you go.Ben:What if we did all of internal communication via TikTok?Starr:Okay, I'm getting this. I'm on board with this. We're just going to be influencers. Whoever's the most influential is going to-Josh:You know what? If our employees don't like it, too bad. You're getting a Twitter account, and it's getting verified.Starr:Yeah, they can interpret our really random TikTok video and try and figure out what it means. That's how they'll discover our disapproval.Ben:On the Basecamp thing, though, it was interesting as I was looking at it this week and realizing that the only thing that we use in Basecamp is messages along with the files. We sometimes attach files to our messages.Josh:Or email forwards.Ben:Yeah, occasionally we do an email forward. But we don't-Starr:Usually we do calendars, but we also have Google calendar.Ben:And Slack.Josh:And Notion.Ben:And notion. So we don't do to-dos. We don't do hill charts. We don't really use the project management side of the project management software that we're using. As I was looking at alternatives this week, I looked at monday.com and ClickUp and, I don't know, a few different ones. They're all these project management things. It's like, well, we don't really manage projects. We do that via chat or via a Zoom call every once in a while or via Notion. We don't use a project management tool for that. So it's like, yeah, all we really need are threads, conversations.Starr:It's the sort of thing where you could just do it in email, but it's nice having that archival ability, the ability to go back and check things out and not have it dependent on, "Oh, maybe I deleted that message by accident or whatever."Josh:Well, you could do it in Slack, but then you end up with the weird history aspect of it, and you'd have to have some sort of... You have to create a channel for it with the rules so it doesn't end up being just a chat. You have to say, "The rule of this channel is every message is a thread or a post or whatever."Starr:You kind of have to do it manually.Josh:Yeah.Ben:I did look at Twist. That was pretty cool, pretty close, but it also has chat. It's like, "well, I don't want a second chat since we already use Slack." We're not going to ditch Slack.Starr:Basecamp has chat, too.Ben:Right, and we don't use that. I guess you could use Twist. Twist is pretty nice.Starr:I think we need threaded messages, we need everything to be archived, and we need some way to see what people have been writing on lately, see what the latest activity is. That's basically it. I don't even use notifications. I get them, but I don't really... Usually by the time I see them... That's not my process. I don't look at my notifications and be like, "Oh, I'd better check this out." I check out the messages at a set set time basically.Ben:Then, like you said, the forum software, like the discourse, and it's just way, way too much. It's like, "Yeah, we get it." We just need a message board. We don't need all the dials and knobs. It's totally a dials and knobs application. I saw it in the settings, and I was like, "Whoa, okay. I'm just going to back away slowly."Starr:It could be fun, I don't know, if we want to be passive aggressive, we could shadow ban people. We could just do all sorts of fun things.Ben:But I suppose we don't have the hard requirements supporting BBCode.Starr:Isn't that a negative requirement? Supporting BBCode, I think that's a detriment. But we do have a chance to maybe, I don't know, maybe... One thing that I've always really... This really annoyed me about Basecamp is that it doesn't support Markdown, and everything we use supports Markdown, so everything I have is in Markdown. So if I write something in my personal notes, it's going to be in Markdown. If I want to transfer that to Basecamp, I got to manually format it, which is just like, "What am I? What is this? Who do you think I am?"Josh:That's my number one gripe with Basecamp, like the editor, is just a WYSIWYG editor that... I constantly... even just when I'm writing and I want to make a list and I just type a dash like I normally... in most things these days, and it just doesn't do anything in Basecamp. Then I remember, "Oh, I have to get my mouse and click on the bullet." It's a huge hassle.Ben:I can imagine your quality of life being dramatically affected by that.Josh:Yeah.Starr:You know we're developers when we're complaining about things like that.Josh:This is why I'm wearing wrist braces.Starr:Or dual wrist braces.Ben:I totally get what you're saying. I want to be able to type star, space, stuff, stuff, stuff and I get a list. Yeah, totally.Starr:It looks like threads.com, it does support Markdown, which is nice. I don't know. I haven't really played around with it a ton. Some aspects of its design, I'm not super happy. I wish the column widths were a little wider and stuff, but also I don't like certain aspects of Basecamp's design. So it's kind of a toss up for me.Ben:I did an export of our Basecamp content, and I got to say their export is fantastic. They give you an HTML page that links to a bunch of other pages per topic or project or team, whatever they call it, and the files are there. It's really well done. So I think if anyone's looking for inspiration on doing exports in their app, they should totally look at Basecamp. They nailed it. It's actually usable. You get this zip file. You open it up and bam, you can just browse through all your stuff.Starr:That's pretty great. I guess I should declare, I think maybe I started this casual looking for alternatives just because I've seen a lot of stuff online about people are angry at Basecamp. It's like, I'm not really angry at them. Well, this isn't really the point. I'm sad and disappointed in them. But also a lot of the reason why I think they have had our business and they had my business, I've stored personal stuff in a personal Basecamp account, it's just because they're trustworthy. That feeling of trustworthiness has gone down a few pegs for me.Starr:Also, I just kind of felt gross logging in there. If you haven't been keeping up with this, part of the deal is they were making fun of people's names and stuff. I don't know. Are they making fun of my name? I've got a weird name. Are they going through my stuff making fun of it? I know they have access to pretty much everything that I put into Basecamp. I don't know. Even if they're not doing that now, are they going to do that in the future? Because it seems like they're going in that direction. I don't know. It seems like they're shutting down people trying to hold them internally accountable for that sort of thing. I don't know. It's just like a gross feeling. I'm just sad about the whole thing.Josh:I personally I kind of doubt that that's like... I got the feeling that the list was more of an artifact from the past, and it had stuck around for too long. I didn't get the feeling that they're condoning that sort of activity really, but I get what you're saying. Also for me, a big factor of it, it's not even just that I'm mad at them or something, they did lose 30% of their company, and they're supporting two products now, one of which is a major infrastructure product but basically is like email. So they have operation overhead and stuff. They did just lose 30% of their company including their, what, head of strategy but basically head of product. So I just wonder, where is the product going from here? It was already, I felt, a little bit stagnating. I don't know. I think they've been working on the next version of it is what I heard. I don't know. It just seems like there are questions about just the stability from that nature, too.Ben:I'm probably in a third place from you two and I probably care the least. I'm like, "Eh, it's a message board. They can make fun of my name." Okay. I had that happen when I was 10. People do that. It's like, "Oh, get on." I have a hard time getting up the energy to care, I guess.Starr:Don't mistake me. I'm not like up in arms about it. This is more like a passive viewing. It's like, "Oh, I got to go on Basecamp and check my things. Uh, I just feel kind of crummy about it." This is-Ben:It's one of those friction things in your life you just don't need. Yeah, absolutely.Starr:Yeah, yeah.Josh:Absolutely.Starr:I'm like, this is a message board. Like, should I be having to deal with this just to go check some messages? It's ridiculous.Josh:I think all of us are really just talking these are passing thoughts we have using the product in light of the drama of the past few weeks.Starr:If we end up staying on it, I'm not going to be super upset. I'll probably get over it. I don't know. It just seems like it might be nice to try something different especially if we can get that sweet Markdown.Ben:I've been surprised that there are so few products that are just about this one use case of the simple messages. I expected there to be tons of things to try and no.Starr:Of course, in our company Notion, there's now a design document-Ben:Of course.Starr:... for a simple-Josh:Because we're going to build our own.Ben:We're going to build our own, of course. What does any good tech team do when they're frustrated with the 20 solutions on the market? They build solution number 21.Starr:Of course.Ben:Maybe we'll build that. The code name for that project is Budgie. I named it Budgie because I went to do the Google search, I'm like, "What's a communicative type of animal? What's a social animal?" I can't remember the search I did, but the first thing that got turned up was like, the most social birds. I don't know. So there's this list of birds, and budgie was the number one bird. So I'm like, "Okay, cool." Then I was like, "Well, what kind of domains are available?" Because of course when you start a project, you have to buy the domain. Before you do anything else, you got to buy that domain. Surprisingly, and perhaps not surprisingly in retrospect, every variant of budgie is taken, of course, budgie.com but also budgie.app and budgieapp.com. I'm like, "Wow. How many...?" And they're all for sale. None of them are actual products. They're all parked, and they're for sale. I'm like, so a bunch of people have had this idea about what's a social animal. I guess budgies are really popular for pets, and so they're looking for the ad opportunities with people looking for, "How do I take care of my budgie?" Anyway, just kind of a diversion.Starr:That's interesting. The first thing that pops into mind when I heard that... I like the name. It's a cute name. There's this really good Australian kids' cartoon called Bluey, and there's an episode where they find a little budgie that's injured, and it dies. So the kids have to come to terms with that. I don't know. It's just like, "Little budgie died."Josh:Bluey is one of the best cartoons ever, by the way.Starr:Yeah, Bluey. Oh, I'm glad you like it, too.Josh:It's so good.Starr:It's super good. It's super good. Basically the whole cartoon is just these kids... They're dogs but they're kids. They're just making up games to play with each other. How it works is the kids watching the show see it and that makes them want to play that game, too. So it's just not dumb TV. It gets them doing stuff outside of the TV, which is kind of nice.Josh:That's a really good analysis of the show. I hadn't thought about that aspect of it, but come to think of it, my kids totally imitate them.Starr:Oh, yeah.Josh:Climbing all over us.Starr:I now have to play every game in that show, and I've got to know them by name and what the rules are.Josh:One of the things we like about it is just they really got the sibling dynamic down. It is like our kids to a tee. It's pretty funny. Now that I think about it, maybe it's like our kids have now become the characters in the show.Ben:It's a good thing I watch the Simpsons.Josh:Oh, no. Actually we do watch the Simpsons.Starr:Is the Simpsons still on?Josh:It's on Disney+.Starr:Oh my gosh.Ben:Yeah, it is still a thing.Josh:They're still making it, too, right?Ben:Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.Starr:Wow. I don't know. I don't even know about that.Josh:We don't watch much of the Simpsons with them yet, a three and four-year-old.Josh:I don't know if I'm quite ready for a couple little Bart and Lisas.Ben:You put that off as long as you can. Well, I actually did a little bit of work this week. I was working on something, I don't know what. I noticed one of the tests was running kind of long like it was just stuck. I don't usually watch tests. I don't usually run the tests actually. I just let our CICB run the tests. I don't even worry about it. But this morning for some reason, I don't know, I was working on something, and I happened to be running the tests. I noticed one of the tests was just stuck. Like, that's weird. So I did a little investigation.Ben:It turns out that a number of our tests do some domain name server resolution because, for webhooks, when someone puts in their webhook, we want to verify that the destination is not like a private thing. They're not trying to fetch our EC2 credentials and stuff like that. So it does some checks like, is this is a private IP address? Does this domain name actually resolve, blah, blah, blah? Also for our uptime checks. Obviously, people are putting in domains for that, too. It turns out that, I don't know, maybe it was my machine, maybe it was the internet being dumb, whatever, but the domain name resolution was what was holding up the test. This happens, as you can imagine, in a variety of ways in our tests. This one test that I was running, which was only, I don't know, seven or eight tests, it was taking a minute or two minutes to run. Then I fixed this so that it stopped doing the domain name resolution, and it took two seconds.Josh:Wow.Ben:So a slight improvement to our test suite there. A quality of life improvement.Josh:Did you benchmark overall? Because that's got to be a huge improvement if it's doing that everywhere.Ben:Well, it's not doing that everywhere. I did do a push, so I have to go and check and see what GitHub... see if it dropped that time.Josh:Well, it might have been whatever was wrong with your DNS resolution in the first place that was causing it to be extra slow. Would it be faster if DNS was fast?Ben:Yeah, it could have been. I actually did some tests on my laptop at the time. I'm like, "Is my DNS resolution slow?" No.Josh:So it's-Ben:The test... I don't know what the deal was.Josh:It was just resolving a bunch of actual URLs in the test.Ben:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Josh:Yeah, that's bad. So nice work. You reminded me that I did some work this week, too.Ben:OhJosh:Very important work, I must say. I added a yak to our Slack bot to where-Josh:... if you mention the word "yak" when you're interacting with the Slack bot now it will return... You should do it in Slack, just whatever Badger bot. Say Badger bot yak me, it-Starr:Okay, I'm doing it.Josh:Okay, do it.Starr:Oh, sorry. It was the wrong channel. Hold on.Josh:You got to do it in general, I think.Starr:Come on Badger bot. Oh my god. It's a little text space yak.Josh:Yeah.Starr:Awesome.Josh:This came about because earlier this week I was just passively mentioning in chat that I'm just yak shaving. My entire life is yak shaving. That just got us talking about, why don't we have some representation of that in our chat, in our Slack? Obviously, I had to stop everything I was doing and build that right away. Of course, there were some escaping issues that came up as a result of that, so obviously I had to deploy a few hot fixes.Ben:The whole episode amuses me. I love it. I would do exactly the same thing. But also what amuses me is that we already have, as part of Slack, GIPHY, and you could just dump a picture of a yak in there. But you're like, "No, that's good enough. I must have an ASCII yak.Josh:It's got to be an ASCII yak, yeah.Ben:This is great. I love technology.Josh:I kind of miss Hubot where it would just automatically... if you just mention it. Maybe I should change our Slack bot so that it does that. So if you say "yak," a wild yak appears. By the way, that's what the text at the bottom of the ASCII yak says, a wild yak appears. I just wish it would pop up if someone just mentions it in a chat, like if they're talking about it just because-Josh:It's listening to everything, right?Starr:That would be fine.Ben:We used to have Hubot, and every time you said "ship," it would show the ship-Josh:The ship, the squirrel. But I definitely would like... annoying at times, but overall I'd say it was worth it.Ben:Totally worth it.Starr:Yeah, definitely. I do remember sometimes where things were on fire, and it's just popping up funny GIFs, and it's like, "Not now. Not now Hubot, not now.Ben:Sit in the corner. Should have had that command. Like, "Go away for a while."Josh:Or just make it a separate... Maybe we should just make this a separate bot that you don't have to have any ops channel. Maybe this'll be our next product.Starr:Oh, there you go. It's like when you mention yak, it turns into an Oregon trail-type hunting scene, and you have to shoot the very slow pixel at it.Josh:Mm-hmm (affirmative). I do love this aspect of our business of being... I assume it's like a side effect of being small. I don't know. I'm sure large teams also do this, I didn't spend a day on this, but spend a day just doing something completely useless. I like that we can do that-Ben:Yes, it is.Josh:... and the total lack of responsibility, to be honest.Starr:Is there a total lack of responsibility? I don't know. I don't know.Ben:I think you could argue that there is a total lack of responsibility.Josh:Maybe relatively.Starr:Maybe.Josh:I think we're speaking relatively.Starr:Relatively? Well, there's responsibility to customers. I don't know. Do they count? Nah.Ben:Speaking of being a small company, just because of a recent acquisition of one of our competitors, I had gone to look at what some of our other competitors, what status they were, and I was just blown away with how many employees our competitors have. It's really amazing.Starr:What are they doing with all those people? Are they paying...? Do they have a professional volleyball team or something?Josh:Not in the past year.Starr:Well, they play over Zoom.Josh:It's a professional pong league now.Starr:There you go.Ben:We have five employees. The competitor that has the closest number of employees comes in at a hefty 71. Then the largest number that I found was 147 employees. That's impressive.Josh:With the competitor, the first one that you mentioned with the 70 something employees, and I assume over $100 million in funding, were they the ones that were recently bragging on Twitter about how much more usage they have than everyone else?Ben:I don't know because I don't remember seeing that bragging.Josh:They were. It was kind of funny. Yeah, you would probably be the major player.Starr:That's something I definitely learned throughout the course of running this business is that a company that has tens or, I don't know, hundreds of, did you say $100 million, that's a lot-Josh:It's a lot.Starr:... of funding can do more work than three people even if those three people are very, very good. It's-Ben:That's right.Starr:They can do more work, and that's all right. We're just going to have our little garden patch over here. It doesn't matter if ConAgra is a mile down the road. They can do their thing. We can do our thing.Ben:As long as they don't let their seeds blow into our farmland, right?Starr:Oh, yeah, definitely. Let me just ask you a question. When it comes to buying your strawberries for your traditional summer strawberry shortcake, are you going to go to that wonderfully, just delightful artisanal farm down the road, or are you just going to slide over to ConAgra and, I don't know, get some of their strawberry-shaped objects?Ben:I got to say, I love roadside fruit stands. Those are the best. When cherry season happens here in Washington, going and grabbing a whole mess of cherries from some random person that's propped on the side of a road, I mean it's awesome.Starr:My favorite ones are the ones have no... if you stop and think about it... I used to live in Arkansas. One time I was walking by and there was this roadside fruit stand just with oranges. It was like, "Hold up. Hold up. Oranges don't grow in Arkansas. What is this?" I don't know if he just went to Costco and just got a bunch of oranges or maybe he did the Cannonball Run from Florida straight up-Josh:Road trip.Starr:... and was selling oranges all the way up. There was some explaining to do.Ben:I didn't realize until I was saying it, but it really does sound ridiculous that you're going to go and get some fruit items from some random person on the side of the road. But I love roadside fruit stands. They're great.Starr:Oh, yeah.Josh:I don't know. In this day and age probably, yeah.Josh:Maybe things should be more like that. Maybe that would solve some problems.Ben:Well, coming back to the front porch thing, do you know that country song, If the World Had a Front Porch?"Starr:No, I don't.Ben:Definitely have to link it up in the show notes. It's all about if the world had a front porch like we did back then, then things would be different. People would be more friendly. We'd be chatting with our neighbors. Things would just be overall good.Starr:Yeah, totally.Josh:We'd all know each other.Starr:Is that true? Is that true?Ben:I got to say, I grew up in the Deep South. I did not have a front porch and none of my friends had a front porch because we all lived in the same neighborhood and all the houses were the same, but we were all still pretty friendly-Starr:Oh, there you go.Ben:... even though we didn't have front porches.Starr:Well, I had a front porch and people were assholes, so I think the correlation between front porches and nice people is weak.Ben:The song If I had a front porchJosh:.Isn't it more like a metaphor? I don't know.Starr:You could say the internet's the world's front porch and look how great that's worked out.Josh:If you just build a front porch-Starr:I'm sure it's a nice song. I don't mean to make fun of the song. I'm sure it's a good song.Josh:You build a front porch that the entire population of the world could fit on, just see how that goes. That's what we-Starr:It's like, "Oh, shit. We deforested the Amazon to get the wood for this."Ben:We should name our little message board product Front Porch.Starr:Front porch, ah, that's nice. You could have add-ons to that. Like for upgrades, you could get the rocking chair or the whittling knife.Ben:Yeah, and the sweet tea-Starr:The sweet tea, yeah.Ben:... or the mint julep.Starr:Can I ask you a question? Was sweet tea a thing when you were a kid?Ben:Yes.Starr:Do people refer to it as like, "Oo, sweet tea," as a saying?Ben:No.Starr:Okay, that-Ben:They'd just refer to is as tea.Starr:Okay, thank you.Ben:There was no other tea. It was just that.Josh:But it was sweet.Ben:Yeah, it was sweet, of course.Starr:Yeah, of course. It's-Ben:That's the only tea that existed. None of this Earl Grey hot business, no, no, no.Starr:I just noticed, I don't know, around 2007 everybody started talking about sweet tea. It's like, "What? What's this?" Ben:Yeah, totally. It's a Southern Thing, on YouTube, their channel, is pretty funny. They go into the sweet tea thing quite a bit. If you want some additional context, do some research on that whole aspect. You can go and watch that YouTube channel. I'll have to link it up in the show notes.Starr:Yeah, I'll check that out. Well, would you gentlemen like to wrap it up? I think I've got to start... I'm going to be Southern here. I'm fixing to get ready to think about going to my vaccine appointment.Ben:Jeet yet? You know that joke? Have you heard that?Starr:I haven't heard that joke. What?Ben:It's like, oh man, two southern guys, one's like, "Jeet yet?"Starr:Ah, did you eat yet? Okay, yeah.Ben:"No. Y'want to?"Starr:I haven't been back in a while.Josh:Did you eat yet?Starr:I haven't been back in a while.Ben:Oh, good times. Sometimes I miss the South but not during the summer.Starr:One of my favorite words, I think it might be a local Arkansas word, is tump. It's a verb, tump. It's the action of tipping something over and dumping out its contents. The perfect use case is a wheelbarrow. Like, you tump out the wheelbarrow. I'm sorry. Tump out the wheelbarrow.Ben:Totally.Josh:I am learning so much on this episode, by the way-Starr:There you go.Josh:... about the South.Josh:It's great. I'm learning more about-Josh:This is your second vaccine appointment, right?Starr:Yeah, it's the second one.Josh:Second and final. Well, for now.Starr:So I'm ready for it to hit me. I'm like, "Bring the storm.Josh:Yes, it hit me.Starr:Bring it on."Josh:Mine was like a 48-hour ordeal, but back to normal now. I feel great.Starr:That's good. You got your super powers.Josh:Yeah.Ben:Well, good luck with that.Starr:Thank you. Maybe one day we'll be able to have a conclave in person again, although I might need the support of a therapist or something because just like... I mean I like y'all, but I don't know if I'm over the droplets yet.Ben:You can still wear masks.Starr:Okay, that's good. Thank God, okay. All right, I will talk to y'all later.

If done correctly, a two-headed strategy of driving sales on Amazon and your native website could yield huge dividends. But what does that kind of strategy look like, and how can you create a scenario where one builds off of another?The answer lies in assortment and pathways into the brand experience. Ben Knox is a bit of an expert in this area and he’s here to share his expertise. Ben earned his stripes working on Red Bull’s ecommerce strategy, and now serves as the vice president of ecommerce and growth at Super Coffee. According to Ben, brands need to come up with an assortment strategy that allows customers to get what they want, when and where they want it, but also leads them back to the type of brand experience you want them to have. He also details how beneficial a subscription model can be, if done right. Plus, he gives some tips on how to get the most out of your texting strategies and what is going on in the wild west of customer acquisition.Main Takeaways:Assorted Assets: When you sell on Amazon, as well as natively on your website, you need to decide on an assortment strategy and how each site can build off each other. Whether that is only placing a select assortment of products on Amazon, or having a full assortment across channels, but offering more subscriptions and sales on your website, it’s crucial to have pathways back to your branded channels.Gotta Flex: If you offer subscriptions, you can only achieve true customer success if you offer flexibility. Even if it means that your customers can cancel a subscription ten minutes after they sign up, those are the kinds of options you need to offer. Doing so allows your customers to feel unburdened and that the experience is risk-free, which makes them more inclined to sign up.Text Me: There are benefits to separating your text strategies in order to maintain the relationship you want with your customers. Having separate text numbers for subscription management and branded content will help customers differentiate the experiences they are having and allow you to cultivate a true VIP experience with those who opt into the branded company channel.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, and welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host Stephanie Postles, co-founder and CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Ben Knox joining us. He's the Vice President of ecommerce and growth at Super Coffee. Ben, welcome.Ben:Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.Stephanie:I'm really excited to have you on. So, you have a very long background in ecommerce. I feel like you're a veteran when I was looking through your profile. And I was hoping you can start there and go into where you've been and how you got here.Ben:Absolutely. I think that's a great foundational question. I started my career at Red Bull at the headquarters in Los Angeles. And looking back on it, couldn't be more thankful of a place to start my career. Obviously, one of the most exciting and powerful brands that CPG has seen in the United States, if not worldwide over the past several decades. So learned a lot there. Started in brand marketing, rotated into corporate strategy, eventually distribution, before finding my way into a special project on ecommerce and at Red Bull at the time And even today, the entirety of ecommerce really relates to Amazon.Ben:For one reason or another, Red Bull only wants to sell merchandise and things like that in a direct consumer way. Everything else is for retail and Amazon would be considered there. So, that was my first experience in ecommerce was leading global Amazon strategy for Red Bull starting in the United States and then, exporting that to Western Europe which was a really exciting opportunity. Great way to learn ecommerce from really the best and brightest, Amazon. Spent a lot of time in Seattle, working with the vendor team there and the related marketing teams. But eventually was really interested in going deeper in particular on direct consumer, paid media, things like that. And so, found my only real opportunity to do that was to leave that great brand, leave the company and join what ended up being several other startups and companies since where I've gotten deeper.Stephanie:Cool. So what does your day to day look like at Super Coffee and what is Super Coffee?Ben:Yeah, absolutely. Super Coffee is an enhanced Coffee Company playing really in almost all consumer packaged goods coffee categories. So, we have bottled coffees, can coffees that really tastes like delicious frappuccinos but don't have any of the calories sugar or carbs and other added positive ingredients, functional ingredients for health. And we also sell similar super espresso product. It's like a double shot espresso, more portable, more on the go, less liquid, same performance.Ben:But also, as of last year, we've moved into ground coffee with added vitamins and antioxidants, k-cup coffee pods and then, previous to that we had been selling creamer, super creamer, similar profile, very decadent, indulgent, but high on health, low on sugar and calories and all that working together as one stop coffee shop for the health minded consumer.Stephanie:That's awesome. And then I saw... so the company was started by three brothers. Right? Was it when you were in college?Ben:Yeah, Jordan as the youngest brother, Jordan DeCicco and his brothers Jake and Jim, his two older brothers, founded the company together. Jordan actually formulated the first Super Coffee in his dorm room and enjoyed it himself and then was sharing it with his former basketball team players. He was a college athlete and got an insight that there's really nothing like this out there.Ben:They didn't enjoy... they enjoyed the flavor and the taste of Starbucks drinks and cafe drinks, but not the way it made them feel, nor the sugar and the calories. And they also liked the idea of energy drinks, but again, not great ingredient profiles and tons of sugar and those things too. So they didn't want to put that in their body and that's really why they started Super Coffee. And, like mentioned, Jordan formulated it in his dorm room for the first time, and then, slowly but surely convinced his brothers to join in on his mission of disrupting the coffee industry. And now, five, if not six years later, here we are and and it's really amazing what they've accomplished.Stephanie:Yeah, it's definitely huge progress. I saw that they were on Shark Tank back in 2017 and then, now recently, they received investment from like big NBA stars and NFL quarterbacks. And then, I think most recently, the company is valued at like 200 million in June or something which blows my mind for something that started in a dorm room. That's amazing.Ben:Yeah, let's not forget J.Lo and A-Rod are our investors and partners in the company and it's no big deal.Stephanie:No big deal, J-Lo. What is up, girl? So, obviously, this company is awesome, which is why you're there, what does your day to day look like as the VP of ecommerce and growth? What do you do?Ben:Yeah, it's varied. So overseeing the sales division of ecommerce so, the actual divisional P&L for Shopify, Amazon, and then, that long tail of third party online retailers. Thrive Market is really awesome standout, actually a new partner of ours, early this year and really great partners so far. So really excited to go deeper on that relationship. Walmart.com is in the mix there as well. So, that's from a sales, divisional responsibility. That's what we're working with. But then, also responsible for the 3PL, whose services all of our ecommerce order fulfillment, the 3PL also services our Amazon business, so is basically, [inaudible] and inbound logistics to Amazon for FBA. And they also do some managed services for us. On top of that, also responsible for overseeing all of our acquisition or retention marketing efforts to really drive both of those two strong horses.Stephanie:Cool. So, what is the breakout between selling on Amazon, selling on your site, selling on other websites, what does that breakout look like? Are you favoring one area right now? Has it changed in the last year?Ben:No, it's the... the really interesting thing about it for us and it's funny now, having done this with a few different brands, it's so brand specific, where your consumers desire to shop from you and for us, we really maintain a very consistent mix so what you might often see is a brand, start strip consumer, then they start moving into Amazon and customers just shift in to Amazon, because everybody has a Prime account these days. It's very easy, very dependable, great return policies, all that so there's a lot of trust there. You're already doing a lot of shopping there. So oftentimes, you'll just find your customer base moving to Amazon in that somewhat uncontrollable way.Ben:There's definitely things that you can do to maintain a more healthy mix. And I would say a lot of those, factors and criteria are in place at Super Coffee and so as a result, we maintain a really healthy mix, let's call it 60%, Shopify, 40%, Amazon, and both both scaling pretty consistently against each other and maintaining that mix and we expect that to continue this year.Stephanie:So what are some neat tricks with selling with Amazon because we've had a lot of smaller brands on here, DTC players who... we've, of course, talked about Amazon creating a white label version of their product and we've also had a couple people be like, there's nothing to worry about as long as your product is strong. How do you guys think about selling on Amazon? And what opportunities are there that maybe people are missing?Ben:Yeah. So, there's many ways to skin a cat there and again, it's very brand dependent on what's right for us. Our context is we really are a retail brand first. So we're now, I think, in over 30,000 outlets across the United States, approaching 60 to 65% ACV so we're getting pretty ubiquitously available. But obviously, nothing compared to a Red Bull that, at the time I left the company over 300,000 outlets, so you can stumble and buy a Red Bull no matter where you are.Ben:Super Coffee is a bit earlier in that lifecycle, but still predominantly retail brand. I think in relative to our category, we really want the consumer to be able to have perfect availability of our products and to be able to purchase our products, when, where, how often, from whom they like. And so from, this is leading into an assortment strategy, from an assortment perspective, maybe another brand might have only select assortment on Amazon and then, to get the full brand experience, you have to go to the website. So, that's a natural path toward toward direct consumer.Ben:There's other ways that we do it. However, we provide the best subscription experience and discount on our website. So, we actually offer subscription on a limited basis. And when we do only the 5% funding amount on Amazon, whereas our website is 15% and so, naturally loyalists, people who are really engaged with the brand will come over to us. And there's other things like special bundles and different content and things like that the website offers that Amazon simply can't.Stephanie:Are you oftentimes finding your customers on Amazon and then, speaking to them in a way that brings them to your website afterwards, top of funnel, they come there and then, you pull them in to create a loyal customer base and retain them?Ben:Yeah, there's a master design for that to occur. It's almost though in practice a bit of pushing a boulder uphill, in that people are demonstrating an intent to purchase somewhere, and there's something there, right? And so, if they are starting to buy on Amazon, that's really an Amazon customer, most likely and then, the factors that would drive somebody from Amazon to our website are a bit more natural and gradual per se. That being said, we do nurture that behavior but it's not a really aggressive, offensive strategy that I would say we've unlocked. Even though I would like to say that we've unlocked that as a massive arbitrage opportunity on the platform, we do find that people tend to stay where they start.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, what would the ideal state look like to you, if you were to make it into the perfect funnel? How would you have it work, if you could just choose?Ben:Semi-limited assortment on Amazon, full assortment, full experience on the direct consumer website. And then, different mechanics and communication strategies in between that Amazon experience, that trial opportunity into the direct consumer experience. Again, slightly different for us, since we're beverage and consumable, or really on the go and post product, retail product, but a brand that's maybe less oriented in that way, could more aggressively attack that type of opportunity.Stephanie:Yeah. Cool. And how do you guys think about subscriptions? Because that was a thing that I feel like everyone wanted everyone to have subscriptions to their products? And then, I feel like a lot of people realize, okay, that's actually not best for our customers, because they don't need a subscription for whenever we have t-shirts or something so we are going to drop that from their offering. And now, it seems like it's making a comeback, but only with certain products. So how did you guys think about that as part of your customer retention strategy?Ben:Yeah, subscriptions for us are paramount, I would say. So, again, a very consumable product. Ideally, we are 50 to 100% of your coffee consumption, obviously, when you're on the go on the weekends, you're out with friends, things like that, pop into coffee shops, you can't avoid that, of course, but relative to... especially, from being at home and through the pandemic in the last nine months, we really want to be that one source coffee solution for you at home, irrespective of your on the go behaviors. And so, for that, subscription, works perfectly on that repeat purchase behavior.Ben:And it's great because you don't have to recruit or remind that shopper to come back and buy every single time they're running low. It's actually right... it's going to happen anyways. But then, we give them the opportunity to say, Hey, not right now, I'm not quite through my last order or we give them the opportunity to say, Hey, I blazed through that order. Let me get my next one, ASAP. So there's that opportunity to modulate on the consumer side of things, that makes it an ideal situation.Ben:I think the technology is not quite there yet to make that a perfect experience, that 30 day cadence is not always perfect for the amount of units in a case and the amount of units in a case is going to last you longer or less time than it would, me. So it's not perfect, but we are working on communication strategies and software and technology to help improve that subscription experience for our customers.Stephanie:Yeah, I think that flexibility is key, I even think about something like Stitch Fix where they say you can pause the orders, you can start it up again, you can take a vacation from it, whatever you need to do. And, I think that feels very risk free like you mean, I can just try it once and then, pause it for three months, and then, try it again? And it's just so different from how it was, I would even say a year ago, where it felt very, cut and dried, you're in it or not. You can get six months in or you can't have it at all, which shows so much has changed a lot.Ben:You're committed. Yeah, we offer ultimate flexibility. You can add a subscription to cart, checkout and then, go and log into your account and cancel that subscription, five minutes later and while that's not ideal, it's okay. That's okay. And really, it's more modeling less than, in a way, the function of subscription itself, we're modeling a loyalty program, in a sense. And so, if our subscription customers get 15%, every order, don't really care if they're actually on a subscription that auto bills them, or they're managing that bill on their own. So, we find ways to incentivize and give rewards and give backs regardless of the way that they are actually going about that.Stephanie:Yeah. That's cool. So, what are some of the biggest driving forces with the program that work well? Is it just the cost savings that usually attracts people and then, something else, once they're in it or what do those incentives look like?Ben:Yeah, it's the cost savings and then, the stated flexibility, the money back guarantee, things like that get them in and interested. Thereafter, one of the things that we invested in six or nine months ago, was basically text message based subscription management. And so essentially, three days before re-bill, an automated text will go out and say, hey, your order of, fill in the blank, is set to ship in three days, would you like to make any changes? Gives the opportunity to opt out, cancel, gives the opportunity to say, ship it right away. Thank God, you messaged me. I'm ready for it now.Ben:They can add products that are not even subscribable. So, they can add season or one time products to try, things that might not even be subscribable. They can modify quantity. They can do all kinds of stuff. It's just as easy as a text message back and forth. So, that's the experience that we're trying to create both at managing and an automatic and dynamic concierge experience for the customer. To really make that experience carefree, really feel like they have as much control as they want over the experience and to steer away from what you were mentioning, which is the old history of you opt into a subscription, you get a deal. And then, you try to go log in and cancel, you can't even figure out how to cancel the dang thing and that's not-Stephanie:Call our customer service representatives and [inaudible].Ben:My gosh, yeah. Email us or okay, that's crazy. So that's not the business that we're in. We're in it to spread positivity, create a great connection with our consumers because now, they're not just buying from us on our website. They're buying from us in stores and they have family members and friends and that kind of experience goes a long way and, the opposite experience also goes a long way.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. What did it look like after you implemented the SMS stuff? And then, all of a sudden, the customers can easily just be like, and cancel. What did the results look like? Was there anything surprising there?Ben:Yeah. So you'd think, okay, you're would go through the roof. And because you give somebody such an easy way to cancel, it's almost a fear mindset rather than an opportunity mindset and what it actually did for us is it didn't increase cancels, but it decreased cx inbound. So, it actually decreased our costs on the customer service, customer experience side of things, because customers could then, choose their own adventure, right? And self service.Ben:And, philosophically, we haven't gotten the data yet until a software, right? The customer has a great experience, doesn't have to email support, all of that back and forth, they're probably more likely to come back later because there's less thrash, less risk of a negative experience. So all in all, great from that perspective, and great from the perspective of allowing people to increase quantities, add new products, things like that. So AOB subscription has also increased.Stephanie:That's awesome. Is there anything else that you do in the text message arena where you're like, this is also working well, or another way that you communicate with your customers outside of just your orders coming up from a subscription standpoint?Ben:Yeah, we do. We do marketing blogs so to... the other part of our text message strategy, and I like calling it a text strategy, not an SMS strategy.Ben:It's pretty much what everybody calls it, but I even see it sometimes where companies or brands, call it that to consumers. And I see it printed on packaging or it's like, send us an SMS. I don't know if any consumer knows what an SMS is.Stephanie:Calling on a landline.Ben:Yeah. Exactly. So, relative to that, it's actually two separate softwares that power it, which we would like to synthesize over time. So two separate phone numbers that these communications come from. So, we let people know that this is your subscription phone number and then, this is the Super Coffee personality brand phone number. And on that second one, we really nurture that as a VIP audience and so, when we do a product launch, things like that, we let people know if they want early access to the new products or early access to, let's call it a Black Friday, Cyber Monday sale, or what have you, you're going to get a 24 hours heads up, to everybody else, to get that early access if you're opted into our text message database.Ben:And so, that's largely how we use it, get early access to things like that product launches, seasonal products and then, the occasional motivational marketing push, things like that that are more conversational, less, we're trying to sell you something. And, I think that's the direction that we want to continue to go deeper on, is driving personalization, driving value, as opposed to asking so much. I think that's something that the industry is striving for as well.Stephanie:Yeah. I agree. It definitely is a tricky channel to where you see a lot of people doing it wrong. And I can see brands being hesitant to even try it out because they probably have experienced something not so great themselves. And they're like, I just don't want to get it wrong. Because I mean, I'm sure you get the random text where you're like, I don't need that coupon right now. I'm in bed, watching Bachelor, which, Ben, I know, you're doing the same thing. I just don't need that right now. It's unhelpful.Ben:There's this... I don't know, who invented it is probably decades, if not 100 years old but this concept of, I think Gary Vaynerchuk might have popularized it, but this concept of give twice, or give three times or five times before you ask for anything. So, it's all about that, giving value and that can be modeled through social media, that can be modeled through email marketing, and that certainly, I think, should be modeled in text messaging but it's tough as marketers or as business owners, business operators, as soon as you stop being consumer, sometimes it's hard not to become incentivized as the business owner and want to sell, sell, sell.Ben:I think sometimes as the business owner or the operator, it's easy to forget what it's like being a consumer and slip into that sales mindset. But I think it's important for us to all, empathize as much as possible with being on the other end and really think about what you would like to receive from a brand as opposed to just another sort of promo?Stephanie:Yeah, I definitely agree that as a business owner, seeing all this data, it's easy to slip into that mindset to, you people like that and, especially, if you're being measured by certain KPIs, and you're like, well, if I send out three random poems or jokes and my boss sees that, they're going to wonder what I'm doing and I can explain it versus my marketing message, which is very kosher and by the books, might not perform as well, but less explaining, just-Ben:Yeah, exactly. So, I think depending on where you are in your organization, or who's listening to this, doing this correctly could require a lot of education upward or throughout the organization. And it's tough, because it's a long term thing. And it's building trust with the consumer, but you also have to build trust internally, to give yourself that runway to operate like this. So there's no silver bullet here, but something to strive for, for sure.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. So what do you see right now, when it comes to the customer acquisition landscape. What has so far 2021 looked like? Is it very different than prior years?Ben:Yeah, it's interesting, I think... two things happened last year and people started spending more time on the Internet and on their devices as a result of the pandemic. So in a way, there's now more reach, more impressions, for sure. And then, there is definitely a surge of people buying more heavily online in certain categories than they ever were before. But I think, we're moving toward the back end of that and reverting to a new mean or a new normal. And, now we've also had nine months for advertisers and brands to catch up to starting to sell and advertise on the internet. And so, there's a crowding from the brand side of things and certainly over the last... [inaudible] always but even now, in starting the year, things are just continuing to escalate and get more expensive on CPM and CPR basis.Ben:So putting increasing pressures on cost per acquisition, and overall customer acquisition costs for a brand new business that might have been previously very reliant on paid digital advertising to find new customers. And so, at least what we're focusing on is diversifying, not only just in channel, so testing obviously, other advertising channels to acquire customers. But diversifying away from paid and more into owned and earned and shared, obviously, longer term investments, things like Content Marketing blog, or let's say, diving deep and building an organic presence on TikTok, which is a buzzword and everyone's very interested in right now.Ben:Pinterest is another area. Pinterest is really the third search engine of the internet, I would say, behind Amazon and Google. So that's something that's been hiding in plain sight for a long time and strategies like that to nurture a healthier upper funnel and then, Paid may be more of converting, retargeting remarketing engine, than a prospecting engine is probably the best way forward. from our perspective currently.Stephanie:Yeah, and I think that's a really good viewpoint, especially when you think about what's happening around the privacy rules and what people have relied on for a long time when it came to Facebook ads and like what IOS is coming out with, it seems like a lot is changing but brands are going to have to rethink how they find new customers just like you're mentioning.Ben:100%.Stephanie:Crazy. So, when you're talking about, right now, there's also a lot of crowding from the brands who popped up, who either came online that weren't or a lot of brand new DTC companies that all started last year, a lot of them did, how do you think about making sure that Super Coffee shows its value in a way when there's a lot of other coffee players popping up and keto brands and butters that you add to your coffee, it feels like the space is getting very saturated. How do you know keep showcasing your value and why you're so different than a lot of other brands?Ben:Yeah. 100%. We tested so many different creative strategies, and this is... we'll talk about paid advertising for a second. Ultimately, we've come down to a few key creative formats or messaging strategies on the paid side that work really well for us. One that we continue to own is is a comparison style ad, which is putting us up against a really sort of delicious looking, we'll call it a Starbucks or a Dunkin Donuts cafe drink with foam and cream and swirl and things like that. And then, putting our product directly next to it, and saying, hey, everything about this... these two things are the same, actually, except for and then we flashed through the nutritional profile, the calories, the sugar, the carbs, that works really well. And, that's not only driving value for us, from an ecommerce perspective, but that's driving global value for us all the way, through the omni channel environment. So we're really happy about that type of communication and that creative strategy, very hard working. That side of things-Stephanie:It's hard too because you're instantly anchoring yourself to a brand that everyone already knows about. So you don't even have to explain, it tastes like this, it's got its own, you don't even have to worry about that when you anchor yourself to a larger brand like that.Ben:Exactly. It's interesting. It's a strategy that has being successfully used by the Magic Spoons of the World, maybe a bit easier, right? Because we've all known for a long time now that cereal is not good for us but we love it, right? I grew up on cereal. I'm from the Midwest and I subsisted off the cereal. So when I learned Magic Spoon came out and Catalina Crunch and different brands like this, it was like, no brainer. I'm ready to try that because I've been dying to eat cereal for a decade and I told myself I couldn't anymore. That's a great comparison.Ben:Ours, we were comparing it against a bottled product in the past. But less household penetration on those types of products, what we really found success in is actually comparing it to the cafe drinks, actually looks like they get an indulgent frappuccino from Starbucks and maybe less people actually, these days are getting frappuccinos than they did so it's moving toward that sterile example, as opposed to bottled or canned coffee drinks, we might still in a way not know that those are super unhealthy for us.Stephanie:What are some other creatives like that that you guys are leaning into?Ben:Yeah, otherwise, we really lean into UGC style creative, raw stuff, really focused on the product this year. So our product, we do have packaging that really distinguishes ourselves from the category, a lot of white in our packaging, we have that Angular slash to our packaging that really stands out. And what we found is really just a standard iPhone style photo, tightly cropped bottle or can is oriented such that the user can actually read it, if they're scanning through the feed. And, with some situational context that could feel like it's a real person, right? It could actually be real UGC, could be manufactured, etc.Ben:Either way, it gives that sense of, okay, I learned that this product in comparison to this other drink is a lot healthier for me. And then, okay, on my second impression from the brand, I'm seeing that this is actually a real thing that exists in the world. I can see myself holding and consuming this product. Let me click through and give it a try. So, that's the funnel, oversimplified, how we think about things currently but both of those creative styles have been very hard working for us historically.Stephanie:That's such an important shift. I've even seen personally like when I'm on Instagram or Tiktok, and I see people using something or they have something in their room, where I'm like, it's like my living room right now. But I don't remember thinking that way, a couple years ago, where I was looking for that more, I really want something to look formal and official. It's already the real deal if you spend a lot of money on it, where now I mean, our best performing ads for Mission are, I'll be walking around with the iPhone, doing the ad and that movement, and organic look does way better than anything that we've actually produced in a formal fashion.Ben:Totally. Yeah. People are turning off the advertising these days. The more polished it looks, the worse it performs, in a way, which is so ironic.Stephanie:Yeah. I agree. So, what channels are you most excited to... I mean, I know you mentioned like TikTok and Pinterest but then, everyone's talking about TikTok, where are you guys zooming in on for this coming year that you're really excited about?Ben:Yeah, we started investing pretty heavily in podcast advertising, as of the start of the year. So we're advertising on shows like Armchair Expert and Pod Save America and Sibling Rivalry and a whole basket of great shows that have partners that represent our brand and are a great fit for our audience. So that's been going quite well. And that's exciting, because it's supportive of the total business, again, maybe moving from a singular ecommerce mindset to more of an omnichannel view on on the world and the market.Ben:So that's been great, we'll continue to invest there and work that into our ongoing marketing mix, a bit more upper funnel. And then, I think, yeah, as I mentioned, really thinking through a Content Marketing Strategy holistically as an upper funnel driver and obviously, there's different distribution channels, but really owning an editorial calendar, owning our perspective, leveraging our partners, and then, distributing that in the channels that are applicable, and really bringing all that to the world of Super Coffee to life, through our partners and through content, I think, is going to be our bleeding edge this year. And really write the ship relative to upper funnel, mid funnel, bottom funnel, and create that healthy balance that all of us are looking for in this industry.Stephanie:One thing I have been thinking about lately is how... in the next coming years, all these brands are turning into essentially, like media companies creating content, and everyone's going to be trying to pull the consumer back to their blogs, to their hubs, and it's like, instead of just going to Instagram feeds and seeing it on there, you're going to be pulling people back to your websites. I mean, how do you think about that landscape because it feels crazy, thinking about hundreds of brands going to be like, come back to my blog to see content that we're creating. And you have to kind of go in a million different places to find it.Ben:Yeah, I think it just puts an increasing pressure on, I will say quality, quality is in the eye of the beholder, right. So, it's, again, like we mentioned quality from designer or creative director of yesteryear is perfect, polished detail dialed whereas quality these days is on a YouTube channel or TikTok account and from a mobile phone and not really produced and published and polished. I think it's quality, it's relatability, it's authenticity and above and beyond all that, it's having something to say, that really speaks to somebody and makes them feel like they're engaging with a personality, engaging something that means something to them, that makes them feel a certain way. And so, it'll just put an increasing pressure on that confusing definition of quality for the consumer, to really create that connection and say, hey, it's worth subscribing to us directly, as opposed to all these other 100 brands that offer X, Y and Z to you. In order to do that, you're going to stay focused and attention on us and not the rest of them.Stephanie:Yeah, I think about the amount of newsletters that popped up last year where obviously, that whole industry is very much democratized. And now, anyone can make a newsletter and charge for it and I subscribed to quite a few of them. But then, now, I'm like, whoa, what'd I do? I mean, now they're coming in, I'm having to send them into different categories and filter them so you don't hit my inbox. And it makes me think that could be an eventual future for brands too, if you don't figure out how to write something, create something that someone is eager to open and actually wants to hear what you have to say and doesn't just drift over to a corporate create marketing message over time.Ben:Yes, exactly. It just all goes back to giving and creating value and it's dependent on the brand and the Tim Ferriss mindset, which is tools, tips, practices, all of that he gives his audience, that's why you go listen to Tim Ferriss. It's contextually different for a brand or for another personality in a podcast or what have you. So, it's all about knowing what you want to say, knowing what you have to give and share to the world and then, give it as much of that as possible.Stephanie:I agree. All right. Let's shift over to the Lightning Round and Lightning Round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. And, this is where I ask a question and you give an answer under 30 seconds.Ben:Wow. Okay. Exciting.Stephanie:What one thing from 2020 do you hope sticks around throughout 2021?Ben:Wow, not much.Stephanie:I know, that's a hard question.Ben:Well, I think, this is going to be a firm answer but a lot of people are of the belief that COVID accelerated transic technology, transic consumer behavior that would have otherwise taken 10 years to happen so, I think, as a digital marketer, as an ecommerce professional, I think thankful and excited for all the change relative to consumer behavior and online commerce that happened in 2020 and I don't think we are going backward on that so excited and thankful for it and excited for what's next.Stephanie:I like that. What's your favorite resource or resources to stay on top of, like the ecommerce industry as a whole?Ben:There's great podcast like yours. I'm not talking to other podcasts because I was on it, DTC podcasts, I think it's Pallet House labs and speaking to these others, they've got really great newsletters as well.Stephanie:Cool. Sounds good.Ben:[inaudible]. Yeah, they're killing it.Stephanie:What one thing do you not understand that you wish you did?Ben:I feel like I wish I understood almost...I don't feel like I understand anything, ever, in a way especially in this industry, everything is always changing and you would speak to somebody, you had such high confidence over something that you feel like you don't know anything about and that's just the constant feeling that you'll have and so, I think, always maintaining an extreme curiosity over things, continuous learning. You'll never know it all so I think that's in the DNA of somebody successful in this industry in ecommerce and digital is, that needs to be a big thing.Stephanie:Yeah. I agree. What's the last purchase you made online that you normally would not have, online prior to 2020?Ben:Well, I'm a new dog dad.Stephanie:Congrats. What's the dog's name and what kind of dog is it?Ben:Her name is Honey because she's so sweet and she's rescue pup, about six months old and we think she's a lab mixed with jindo which is a Korean breed.Stephanie:Okay. I'm like, I know what kind of dog that is.Ben:It's almost like a Siberian Husky that's more slender.Stephanie:Okay. So you bought that offline or you bought something for her online?Ben:I buy everything for her on the internet now. I never bought the pet category before in my life and certainly not online so that's opening me up to just a completely different world of industry and I think, the number one ecommerce category is vitamins and supplements, number two is pet supplies, number three might be pet food and over 50% of pet products are bought online so pet is the most endemic ecommerce category there is besides vitamins and supplements.Stephanie:Yeah. All right, Ben. Well, this whole conversation has been a blast, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your knowledge. Where can people find out more about you and Super Coffee?Ben:Yeah, Super Coffee is easy, drinksupercoffee.com or just type us in the search bar, Super Coffee in Google or Amazon, they'll find your way to us. Myself, really the only place I exist is on LinkedIn. That really means in any social profiles. I don't have a newsletter or a blog myself but feel free to find me on LinkedIn and make a connection and reach out and love to connect.Stephanie:Perfect. Thanks so much, Ben.Ben:No, thanks, Stephanie. It's been great.

Ben: Hana, I'm currently teaching English as a Second Language, and I love for my students to get confident in producing English or increasing their listening ability. I know that you speak English as a second language, but you do such an amazing job and it's inspiring to me, so I love my students to improve and like it, and so because you're a perfect example, what are some strategies you have for my students so I could tell them?Hana: Firstly, I worked on listening, and there are so many websites that are designed for English learners, like here you're listening to, and YouTube or any, you know, so many sites that you can check on. Yeah, like that. I'll probably start with the listening first.Ben: You said, firstly, listening. Why is listening so important?Hana: It's because when you want to communicate, of course, the English as a tool, communication tool, first, you have to understand what the speaker say, so first, I worked on listening. By listening to audio, or the sound, then you can learn vocab and also spelling, and you know the meaning, of course. Eventually, you can move on to the next English skill. That's why I start working on listening first.Ben: What about anything else that you ... have any other strategies?Hana: Personally, I found that learning vocab, and especially idioms, help me a lot.Ben: Yeah, idioms are tough.Hana: Yes, because often I found it difficult to understand what the speaker say. I could hear, I could understand what the single words they say. But sometimes it was hard to sort of grasp the meaning what they're actually saying, so learning idioms or vocab helped me a lot, yeah.Ben: When you learn the idioms, you can understand them. Did you ever use them yourself, when you, like, tried it out in the wild, so to speak, using the idioms you learned.Hana: Yes, I did it gradually. I mean, when I was in high school, I started speaking ... I started studying English when I was in high school. First thing I did was visiting those websites that, like, designed for English speakers, English learners. At the same time, I start watching like American TV dramas and, in that sense, you can sort of understand in what situation you can use those particular phrases or idioms. By learning the idioms and vocab and the settings or the environment, the situation you can use, then you can sort of actually try to use them. At the beginning I was so nervous, but ...Ben: I'm sure. Yeah. I mean it's really difficult to use idioms in any language, but English has so many, I think. Another thing I wanted to ask you about production skills in English is writing. I try to give my students opportunities to write it in class, but in order to be a proficient and excellent English speaker, you need to practice outside of class. What do you recommend to improve student's writing abilities, besides just taking it for a test or for an assignment? What do you recommend?Hana: Yes. They are difficult. I myself have trouble still writing because I'm not a good writer in my native language.Ben: Oh, no.Hana: But I guess just reading will help you, at the start. Reading something, reading text or some passages will help you.Ben: So if you know how to read, it can help you write.Hana: Yes, definitely.Ben: All right.Hana: To learn sort of the template, how will things go and how you make paragraph and stuff. Probably if you want to get better at writing, I would start reading first, reading lots of passages, different kinds of materials first.Ben: That's true, and I agree with that. One thing I wanted to have my students do is actually do like a journal, actually.Hana: Yes,.Ben: Did you ever keep an English journal to help with your writing?Hana: Yes, I did.Ben: Oh, you did?Hana: I did, yeah.Ben: How do you feel that helped you? Was that good, a good idea?Hana: Yes. Because, first, when you write, unlike speaking or talking to somebody, it gives you time to really think about what you want to do, what you want to write, and you can focus on grammar more. That helps to actually talk to somebody maybe a day, right, next day, or you have to write something else in the class, that would help you. So keeping the journal will help you definitely, I think.Ben: Okay. Thank you very much for the tips. I really appreciate it.Hana: You're welcome.

Ben: Hana, I'm currently teaching English as a Second Language, and I love for my students to get confident in producing English or increasing their listening ability. I know that you speak English as a second language, but you do such an amazing job and it's inspiring to me, so I love my students to improve and like it, and so because you're a perfect example, what are some strategies you have for my students so I could tell them?Hana: Firstly, I worked on listening, and there are so many websites that are designed for English learners, like here you're listening to, and YouTube or any, you know, so many sites that you can check on. Yeah, like that. I'll probably start with the listening first.Ben: You said, firstly, listening. Why is listening so important?Hana: It's because when you want to communicate, of course, the English as a tool, communication tool, first, you have to understand what the speaker say, so first, I worked on listening. By listening to audio, or the sound, then you can learn vocab and also spelling, and you know the meaning, of course. Eventually, you can move on to the next English skill. That's why I start working on listening first.Ben: What about anything else that you ... have any other strategies?Hana: Personally, I found that learning vocab, and especially idioms, help me a lot.Ben: Yeah, idioms are tough.Hana: Yes, because often I found it difficult to understand what the speaker say. I could hear, I could understand what the single words they say. But sometimes it was hard to sort of grasp the meaning what they're actually saying, so learning idioms or vocab helped me a lot, yeah.Ben: When you learn the idioms, you can understand them. Did you ever use them yourself, when you, like, tried it out in the wild, so to speak, using the idioms you learned.Hana: Yes, I did it gradually. I mean, when I was in high school, I started speaking ... I started studying English when I was in high school. First thing I did was visiting those websites that, like, designed for English speakers, English learners. At the same time, I start watching like American TV dramas and, in that sense, you can sort of understand in what situation you can use those particular phrases or idioms. By learning the idioms and vocab and the settings or the environment, the situation you can use, then you can sort of actually try to use them. At the beginning I was so nervous, but ...Ben: I'm sure. Yeah. I mean it's really difficult to use idioms in any language, but English has so many, I think. Another thing I wanted to ask you about production skills in English is writing. I try to give my students opportunities to write it in class, but in order to be a proficient and excellent English speaker, you need to practice outside of class. What do you recommend to improve student's writing abilities, besides just taking it for a test or for an assignment? What do you recommend?Hana: Yes. They are difficult. I myself have trouble still writing because I'm not a good writer in my native language.Ben: Oh, no.Hana: But I guess just reading will help you, at the start. Reading something, reading text or some passages will help you.Ben: So if you know how to read, it can help you write.Hana: Yes, definitely.Ben: All right.Hana: To learn sort of the template, how will things go and how you make paragraph and stuff. Probably if you want to get better at writing, I would start reading first, reading lots of passages, different kinds of materials first.Ben: That's true, and I agree with that. One thing I wanted to have my students do is actually do like a journal, actually.Hana: Yes,.Ben: Did you ever keep an English journal to help with your writing?Hana: Yes, I did.Ben: Oh, you did?Hana: I did, yeah.Ben: How do you feel that helped you? Was that good, a good idea?Hana: Yes. Because, first, when you write, unlike speaking or talking to somebody, it gives you time to really think about what you want to do, what you want to write, and you can focus on grammar more. That helps to actually talk to somebody maybe a day, right, next day, or you have to write something else in the class, that would help you. So keeping the journal will help you definitely, I think.Ben: Okay. Thank you very much for the tips. I really appreciate it.Hana: You're welcome.

This month on Naked Astronomy, we're taking a closer look at the largest telescope ever to be built, the Square Kilometre Array. The SKA spans continents, with some of it in South Africa, and some of it in Australia, but how does that work? And also, what is the SKA going to show us about our universe. To find out, Ben McAllister and Adam Murphy spoke with Phil Diamond, the Director General for the SKA project...Ben - You're probably familiar with the concept of a telescope - humans have been making them for at least hundreds of years, and using them to learn about the Universe beyond our... Like this podcast? Please help us by supporting the Naked Scientists

This month on Naked Astronomy, we're taking a closer look at the largest telescope ever to be built, the Square Kilometre Array. The SKA spans continents, with some of it in South Africa, and some of it in Australia, but how does that work? And also, what is the SKA going to show us about our universe. To find out, Ben McAllister and Adam Murphy spoke with Phil Diamond, the Director General for the SKA project...Ben - You're probably familiar with the concept of a telescope - humans have been making them for at least hundreds of years, and using them to learn about the Universe beyond our... Like this podcast? Please help us by supporting the Naked Scientists

This conversation covers: The advantages of using a distributed data storage model. How Storj is creating new revenue models for open-source projects, and how the open-source community is responding. The business and engineering reasons why users decide to opt for cloud-native, according to Ben. Viewing cloud-native as a journey, instead of a destination — and some of the top mistakes that people tend to make on the journey. Ben also talks about the top pitfalls people make with storage and management. Why businesses are often caught off guard with high storage costs, and how Storj is working to make it easier for customers.  Avoiding vendor lock-in with storage. Advice for people who are just getting started on their cloud journey. The person who should be responsible for making a cloud journey successful. Links: Storj Labs: https://storj.io/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/golubbe GitHub: https://github.com/golubbe TranscriptEmily: Hi everyone. I'm Emily Omier, your host, and my day job is helping companies position themselves in the cloud-native ecosystem so that their product's value is obvious to end-users. I started this podcast because organizations embark on the cloud naive journey for business reasons, but in general, the industry doesn't talk about them. Instead, we talk a lot about technical reasons. I'm hoping that with this podcast, we focus more on the business goals and business motivations that lead organizations to adopt cloud-native and Kubernetes. I hope you'll join me.Emily: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native, my name is Emily Omier. I'm your host, and today I'm chatting with Ben Golub. Ben, thank you so much for joining us.Ben: Oh, Thank you for having me.Emily: And I always like to just start off with having you introduce yourself. So, not only where you work and what your job title is, but what you actually spend your day doing.Ben: [laughs]. Okay. I'm Ben Golub. I'm currently the executive chair and CEO of Storj Labs, which is a decentralized storage service. We kind of like to think of it as the Airbnb of disk drives, But probably most of the people on your podcast who, if they're familiar with the, sort of, cloud-native space would have known me as the former CEO of Docker from when it was released up until a few years ago. But yeah, I tend to spend my days doing a lot of stuff, in addition to family and dealing with COVID, running startups. This is now my seventh startup, fourth is a CEO.Emily: Tell me a little bit, like, you know, when you stumble into your home office—just kidding—nobody is going to the office, I know. But when you start your day, what sort of tasks are on your todo list? So, what do you actually spend your time doing?Ben: Sure. We've got a great team of people who are running a decentralized storage company. But of course, we are decentralized in more ways than one. We are 45 people spread across 15 different countries, trying to build a network that provides enterprise-grade storage on disk drives that we don't own, that are spread across 85 different countries. So, there's a lot of coordination, a lot of making sure that everybody has the context to do the right thing, and that we stay focused on doing the right thing for our users, doing the right thing for our suppliers, doing the right thing for each other, as well.Emily: One of the reasons I thought it'd be really interesting to talk with you is that I know your goal is to, sort of, revolutionize some of the business models related to managing storage. Can you talk about that a little bit more?Ben: Sure. Sure. I mean, obviously, there's been a big trend over the past several years towards the Cloud in general, and a big part of the [laughs] Cloud is storage. Actually, AWS started with S3, and it's a $90 billion market that's growing. The world's going to create enough data this year to fill a stack of CD-ROMs, to the orbit of Mars and back. And yet prices haven't come down, really, in about five years, and the whole market is controlled by essentially three players, Microsoft, Google, in the largest, Amazon, who also happen to be three of the five largest companies on the planet. And we think that data is so critical to everything that we do that we want to make sure that it doesn't stay centralized in the hands of a few, but that we, sort of, create a more, sort of, democratic—if you will—way of handling data that also addresses some of the serious privacy, data mining, and security concerns that happen when all the data is held by only a few people.Emily: With this, I'm sure you've heard about digital vegans. So, people who try to avoid all of the big tech giants—Ben: Right, right.Emily: Does this make it possible to do that?Ben: Well, so we're more of a back end. So, we're a service that people who produce-consumer-facing services use. But absolutely, if somebody—and we actually have people who want to create a more secure way of providing data backup, more secure way of enabling data communications, video sharing, all these sorts of things, and they can use us and service those [laughs] digital vegans, if you will.Emily: So, if I'm creating a SaaS product for digital vegans, I would go with you?Ben: I would hope you'd consider us, yeah. And by the way, I mean, also people who have mainstream applications use us as well. I mean, so we have people who are working with us who may have sensitive medical data on people, or people who are doing advanced research into areas like COVID, and they're using us partially because we're more secure and more private, but also because we are less likely to be hacked. And also because frankly faster, cheaper, more resilient.Emily: I was just going to ask, what are the advantages of distributed storage?Ben: Yeah. We benefit from all the same things that the move towards cloud-native in general benefits from, right? When you take workloads, and you take data, and you spread them across large numbers of devices that are operated independently, you get more resilience, you get more security, you can get better performance because things are closer to the edge. And all of these are benefits that are, sort of, inherent to doing things in a decentralized way as opposed to a centralized way. And then, quite frankly we're cheaper. I mean, because of the economics and doing this this way, we can price anywhere from a half to a third of what the large cloud providers offer, and do so profitably for ourselves.Emily: You also offer some new revenue models for open-source projects. Can you talk about that a little bit more?Ben: Sure, I mean, obviously I come from an open-source background, and one of the big stories of open-source for the past several years is the challenges for open-source companies in monetizing, and in particular, in a cloud world, a large number of open-source companies are now facing the situation where their products, completely legally but nonetheless, not in a fiscally sustainable way, are run by the large cloud companies and essentially given away as a loss leader. So, that a large cloud company might take a great product from Mongo or Redis, or Elastic, and run it essentially for free, give it away for free, not pay Mongo, Elastic, or Redis. And the cloud companies monetize that by charging customers for compute, and storage, and bandwidth. But unfortunately, the people who've done all the work to build this great product don't have the opportunity to share in the monetization. And it makes it really very hard to adopt a SaaS model for the cloud companies, which for many of them is really the best way that they would normally have for monetizing their efforts. So, what we have done is we've launched a program that basically turns it on its head and says, “Hey, if you are an open-source project, and you integrate with us in a way that your users send data to us, we'll share the revenue back with you. And as more of your users share more data with us, we'll send more money back to you.” And we think that that's the way it should be. If people are building great open-source projects that generate usage and revolutionize computing, they should be rewarded as well.Emily: How important is this to the open-source community? How challenging is it to find a way to support an open-source project?Ben: It's critical. I mean, if you look at the most—I'd start by saying two-thirds of all cloud workloads are open-source, and yet in the $180 billion cloud market, less than $5 billion [unintelligible] going back to the open-source projects that have built these things. And it's not easy to build an open-source project, and it takes resources. And even if you have a large community, you have developers who have families, or [laughs] need to eat, right? And so, as an open-source company, what you really want to be able to do is become self-sustaining. And while having contributions is great, ultimately, if open-source projects don't become self-sustaining, they die. Emily: A question just, sort of, about the open-source ethos: I mean, how does the community about open-source feel about this? It is obvious developers have to eat just like everybody else, and it seems like it should be obvious that they should also be rewarded when they have a project that's successful. But sometimes you hear that not everybody is comfortable with open-source being monetized in any way. It's like a dirty word.Ben: Yeah. I mean, I think [unintelligible] some people who object to open-source being monetized, and that tends to be a fringe, but I think there's a larger percentage that don't like the notion that you have to come up with a more restrictive license in order to monetize. And I think unfortunately a lot of open-source companies have felt the need to adopt more restrictive licenses in order to prevent their product being taken and used as a loss leader by the large cloud companies. And I guess our view is, “Hey, what the world doesn't need is a different kind of license. It needs a different kind of cloud.” And that's, and that's what we've been doing. And I think our approach has, frankly, gotten a lot of enthusiasm and support because it feels fair. It's not, it's not trying to block people from doing what they want to do with open-source and saying, “This usage is good, this is bad.” It's just saying, “Hey, here's a new viable model for monetizing open-source that is fair to the open-source companies.”Emily: So, does Storj just manage storage? Or, where's the compute coming from?Ben: It's a good question. And so, generally speaking, the compute can either be done on-premise, it can be done at the end. And we're, sort of, working with both kinds. We ourselves don't offer a compute service, but because the world is getting more decentralized, and because, frankly, the rise of cloud-native approaches, people are able to have the compute and the storage happening in different places.Emily: How challenging is it to work with storage, and how similar of an experience is it to working with something like AWS for an end-user? I just want to get my app up.Ben: Sure, sure. If you have an S3 compatible application, we're also S3 compatible. So, if you've written your application to run on AWS S3, or frankly, these days most people use the S3 API for Google and Microsoft as well, it's really not a big effort to transition. You change a few lines of code, and suddenly, the data is being stored in one place versus the other. We also have native libraries in a lot of different languages and bindings, so for people who want to take full advantage of everything that we have to offer, it's a little bit more work, but for the most part, our aim is to say, “You don't have to change the way that you do storage in order to get a much better way of doing storage.”Emily: So, let me ask a couple questions just related to the topic of our podcast, the business of cloud-native. What do you think are the reasons that end users decide to go for cloud-native?Ben: Oh, I think there are huge advantages across the board. There are certainly a lot of infrastructural advantages: the fact that you can scale much more quickly, the fact that you can operate much more efficiently, the fact that you are able to be far more resilient, these are all benefits that seemed to come with adopting more cloud-native approaches on the infrastructure side if you will. But for many users, the bigger advantages come from running your applications in a more cloud-native way. Rather than having a big monolithic application that's tied tightly to a big monolithic piece of hardware, and both are hard to change, and both are at risk, if you write applications composed of smaller pieces that can be modified quickly and independently by small teams and scale independently, that's just a much more scalable, faster way to build, frankly, better applications. You couldn't have a Zoom, or a Facebook, or Google search, or any of these massive-scale, rapidly changing applications being written in the traditional way.Emily: Those sound kind of like engineering reasons for cloud-native. What about business reasons?Ben: Right. So, the business reasons [unintelligible], sort of, come alongside. I mean, so when you're able to write applications faster, modify them faster, adapt to a changing environment faster, do it with fewer people, all of those end up having real big business benefits. Being able to scale flexibly, these give huge economic benefits, but I think the economic benefits on the infrastructure side are probably outweighed by the business flexibility: the fact that you can build things quickly and modify them quickly, and react quickly to changing environment, that's [unintelligible]. Obviously, again, you use Zoom as an example. There's this two-week period, back in March, where suddenly almost every classroom and every business started using Zoom, and Zoom was able to scale rapidly, adapt rapidly, and suddenly support that. And that's because it was done in a more—in a cloud-native way.Emily: I mean, it's interesting, one of the tensions that I've seen in this space is that some people like to talk a lot about cost benefits. So, we're going to move to cloud-native because it's cheap, we're going to reduce costs. And then there's other people that say, well, this isn't really a cost story. It's a flexibility and agility, a speed story.Ben: Yeah, yeah. And I think the answer is it can be both. What I always say, though, is cloud-native is not really a destination, it's a journey. And how far we go along with that path, and whether you emphasize the operational side versus—or the infrastructural side versus the development side, it sort of depends on who you are, and what your application is, and how much it needs to scale. And it's absolutely the case that for many companies and applications if they try to look like Google from day one, they're going to fail. And they don't need to because it's—the way you build an application that's going to be servicing hundreds of million people is different than the way you build an application, there's going to be servicing 50,000 people.Emily: What do you see is that some of the biggest misconceptions or mistakes that people make on this journey?Ben: So, I think one is clearly that they knew it as an all or nothing proposition, and they don't think about why they're going on the journey. I think a second mistake that they often make is that they underestimate the organizational change that it takes to build things in the cloud-native way. And obviously, the people, and how they work together, and how you organize, is as big transition for many people as the tech stack that you'd use. And I think the third is that they don't take full advantage of what it takes to move a traditional application to run it in a cloud-native infrastructure. And you can get a lot of benefits, frankly, just by containerizing or Docker-izing a traditional app and moving it online.Emily: What about specifically related to storage and data management? What do you think are some misconceptions or pitfalls?Ben: Right. So, I think that the challenge that many people have when they deal with storage is that they don't think about the data at rest. They don't think about the security issues that are inherent in having data that can be attacked in a single place, or needs to be retrieved from a single place. And part of why we built Storj, frankly, is a belief that if you take data and you encrypt it, and you break it up into pieces, and you distribute those pieces, you actually are doing things in a much better way that's inherent, that you're not dependent on any one data center being up, or any one administrator doing their job correctly, or any password being strong. By reducing the susceptibility to single points of failure, you can create an environment that's more secure, much faster, much more reliable. And that's math. And it gets kind of shocking to see that people who make the journey to cloud-native, while they're changing lots of other aspects of their infrastructure and their applications, repeating the same mistakes that people have been making for 30 years in terms of data access, security, and distribution.Emily: Do you think that that is partially a skills gap?Ben: It may be a skills gap, but it's also, frankly, there's been a dearth of viable other options. And I think that—we frequently when I'm talking with customers, they all say, “Hey, we've been thinking about being decentralized for a while, but it just has been too difficult to do.” Or there have been decentralized options, but they're, sort of, toys. And so, what we've aimed to do is create a decentralized storage solution that is enterprise-grade, is S3 compatible, so it's easy to adopt, but that brings all the benefits of decentralization.Emily: I'm also just curious because of the sort of organizational changes that need to happen. I mean, everybody, particularly in a large organization, is going to have these super-specific areas of expertise, and to a certain extent, you have to bring them all together.Ben: You do. Right. You do have to. And so I'm a big believer in you pick pilot projects that you do with a small team, and you get some wins, and nothing helps evangelize change better than wins. And it's hard to get people to change if they don't see success, and a better world at the end of the tunnel. And so, what we've tried to do, and what I think people doing in the cloud-native journey often do, is you say, “Let's take a small low-risk application or small, low-risk dataset, handle it in a different way, and show the world that it can be done better,” right? Or, “Show our organization that it can be better.” And then build up not only muscle memory around how you do this, but you build up natural advocates in the organization.Emily: Going back to this idea of costs, you mentioned that Storj can reduce costs substantially. Do you think a lot of organizations are surprised at how much cloud storage costs?Ben: Yes. And unfortunately, it's a surprise that comes over time. I mean, you… I think the typical story if you get started with Cloud. And there's not a lot of large upfront costs when your usage is low. So, yeah, so you start with somebody pulling out their credit card and building their pilot project, and just charging themselves directly to charging themselves directly to—you know, charging their Amazon, or their Google, or their Microsoft directly to their credit card, then they move to paying through a centralized organization. But then as they grow, suddenly, this thing that seemed really low price becomes very, very expensive, and they feel trapped. And data, in particular, has this—in some ways, it grows a lot faster than compute. Because, generally speaking, you're keeping around the data that you've created. So, you have this base of data that grows so slowly that you're creating more data every day, but you're also storing all the data that you've had in the past. So, it grows a lot more exponentially than compute, often. And because data at rest is somewhat expensive to move around, people often find themselves regretting their decisions a few months into the project, if they're stuck with one centralized provider. And the providers make it very difficult and expensive to move data out.Emily: What advice would you have to somebody who's at that stage, at the just getting started, whipping out my credit card stage? What do you do to avoid that sinking feeling in your stomach five months from now?Ben: Right. I mean, I guess what I would say is that don't make yourself dependent on any one provider or any one person. And that's because things have gotten so much more compatible, and that's on the storage side by the things that we do, on the compute side by the use of containers and Docker. You don't need to lock yourself in, as long as you're thoughtful at the outset.Emily: And who's the right person to be thinking about these things?Ben: That's a good question. So, you know, I'd like to say the individual developer, except developers for the most part, they have something that they want to build, [laughs] they want to get it built as fast as possible and they don't want to worry about infrastructure. But I really think it's probably that set of people that we call DevOps people that really should be thinking about this, to be thinking not only how can we enable people to build and deploy and secure faster, but how can we build and secure and deploy in a way that doesn't make us dependent on centralized services?Emily: Do you have other pieces of advice for somebody setting out on the “Cloud journey,” in quotes, too basically avoid the feeling, midway through, that they messed up.Ben: So, I think that part of it is being thoughtful about how you set off on this cloud journey. I mean, know where you want to end up, I think this [unintelligible]. You want to set off on a journey across the country, it's good to know that you want to end up in Oregon versus you want to end up in Utah, or Arizona. [unintelligible] from east to west, and making sure your whole organization has a view of where you want to get. And then along the way, you can say, “You know what? Let's course-correct.” But if you are going down on the cloud journey because you want to save money, you want to have flexibility, you don't want to be locked in, you want to be able to move stuff to the edge, then thinking really seriously about whether your approach towards the Cloud is helping you achieve those ends. And, again, my view is that if you are going off on a journey to the Cloud, and you are locking yourself into a large provider that is highly centralized, you're probably not going to achieve those aims in the long run.Emily: And then again, who is the persona who needs to be thinking this? And ultimately, whose responsibility is it to make a cloud journey successful?Ben: So, I think that generally speaking, a cloud journey past these initial pilots where I think pilots are often, it's a small team that are proving that things can be done in a cloud-native way, they should do whatever it takes to prove that something can be done, and get some successes. But then I think that the head of engineering, the Vice President of Operations, the person who's heading up DevOps should be thoughtful, and should be thinking about where the organization is going, from that initial pilot into developing the long-term strategy.Emily: Anything else that you'd like to add?Ben: Well, these are a lot of really good questions, so I appreciate all your questions and the topic in general. I guess I would just add, maybe my own personal bias, that data is important. The cloud is important, but data is really important. And as, you know, look at the world creating enough data this year to fill a stack of CD-ROMs, to the orbit of Mars and back, some of that is cat videos, but also buried in there is probably the cure to COVID, and the cure for cancer, and a new form of energy. And so, making it possible for people to create, and store, and retrieve, and use data in a way that's cost-effective, where they don't have to throw out data, that is secure and private, that's a really noble goal. And that's a really important thing, I think, for all of us to embrace.Emily: Just a couple of final questions. The first one, I just like to ask everybody, what is your favorite can't-live-without software engineering tool?Ben: Honestly, I think that collaboration tools, writ large, are important. And whether that's things like GitHub, or things like video conferencing, or things like shared meeting spaces, it's really the tools enable groups of people to work together that I think are the most important.Emily: Where can people connect with you or follow you?Ben: Oh, so I'm on Twitter, @golubbe, G-O-L-U-B-B-E. And that's probably the best place to initially reach out to me, but then I [blog], and I'm on GitHub as well. I'm not that great [unintelligible].Emily: Well, thank you so much for joining us. This was a great conversation.Ben: Oh, thank you, Emily. I had a great conversation as well.Emily: Thanks for listening. I hope you've learned just a little bit more about The Business of Cloud Native. If you'd like to connect with me or learn more about my positioning services, look me up on LinkedIn: I'm Emily Omier—that's O-M-I-E-R—or visit my website which is emilyomier.com. Thank you, and until next time.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Do you ever wonder what happens when the police leave? Crime scene cleaners are private companies that handle to clean up after the police are gone. Spaulding Decon is one of the nation's largest cleanup companies handling the aftermath of homicides, suicides, decompositions, hoarding, and much more. These are our stories. So I'm getting ready to go in for the initial shock. I can smell biohazard pet waste and I can smell the ammonia from the cats. The walls are yellowing from the smoke- from smoking inside the building. This is a- this is just- there's a cat that just ran back that way. This is a huge case of depression. This isn't the worst. We've seen far worse. I don't have any gloves on right now, so I'm just trying to kick the doors open. There's animal waste everywhere. Everywhere, I'm not going to venture any further in right now cause I am not fully dressed up for this but I just kind of wanted to see what we were working with. I feel like I wish you guys had smell-o-vision so you could actually smell what we're smelling right now. It's actually burning my nose. I feel like my nose hairs are sizzling from the ammonia. We are at a hoarder's home here. We are starting in the garage and we have our big dumpster. I'm suited up because we are going to be going inside and its got a lot of animal waste and its probably knee-high with trash and stuff. So I've got this on here. I'll probably wear a respirator since the ammonia levels are decently high.She has 2 cats but she has 2 dogs as well, and they've never been let out. It's just really 8 years of accumulation. It breaks my heart because I have 2 dogs- 2 teacup Yorkies- and Laura said that the dogs that are here are identical to mine and mine are spoiled rotten. It's heartbreaking. We're an animal-loving company we all have animals it's gut-wrenching to me.Kyle: Just knowing like my dogs are inside Laura: YeahKyle: Fucking kills me Laura: But the hardest part is knowing she didn't do this on purpose Kyle: No, no this is a clear case of depressionLaura: It's hard. It's hard.Kyle: What?... That fucking thing was heavy Laura: Yeah fucking speed it up. Knees to the chest! Kyle: Knees to chest, bitch.Kyle and Laura: Knees to the chest! Laura: Let's do this!Kyle: Go ahead. Can you? 1..2..3Juan: This job is a little nasty but it's not so hard. It's an easy job. To do a hoarding... that's easy.Ben: You could tell she was really depressed. You could tell she was going through something.Kyle: I love total cleanouts because it makes life so much simpler not having to pick and choose. We only have a tiny list.Laura: Right, but also it like a huge transformation and biohazard remediation. I love the before and after Kyle: oh 100%. Instant satisfaction.Laura and Kyle: ♪ we are family leave♪ Kyle: No we're not. Don't even try.Kyle: There are 2 that are seen. I am waiting for the 3rd. I will cry if it's up my leg.Laura: Where did they go? Kyle: I don't know which is why I'm freaking out Laura: Oh, I thought you guys put them outside or somethingBen: No, they started going up the wall so I left them alone. Kyle: I swear to god. It's not a spider though I couldn't tell that from far away. Laura: What are these poor cats eating? Kyle: Leftovers on the floor. You have to look at the expiration on it. 2008?!? No!Kyle: They'll die. They're better off eating roaches. I want to give you an update on the hoarding situation here in Pasco County, Florida. We are probably 6 1/2 hours into the cleanup. There are 5 of us here. We have already dumped one large trailer of this size and now we almost have the second one completely full here. So this is 24 cubic yards of biohazard waste. It holds up to 2 1/2 to 3 tons right there. But we started off with the garage and we are using it as a staging area for very few keep items that she wanted to keep which was really just jewelry, purses, and pictures. So this room was pretty bad here. It was probably knee-high maybe a little higher. The kitchen had a ton of spiders and roaches. So it was challenging to get them all in garbage bags. So follow me. We found food from 2008 and I mean it was really old stuff you can see on the floor finally. There are still tons of spiders and tons of fast food and food packages. We're really going to end up throwing 99% of all her house away and she's gonna start fresh so this was probably stacked I would say about 4 ft high. Then this room, we're working on this now we couldn't even walk in here so at least now you can see some carpet and then we have all of this debris here so you know she's only keeping like this TVand stuff but take a look at the ceiling fan that is years of accumulation. You have tons of feces back here to the bed so it looks like they were using this room for their bathroom. You know, animals want to be clean but when you leave them alternatives, they don't really have anywhere else to go so. Now in this room you can see tons and tons of bags of cat food and we have a couple more hours here this project will take us probably two days to do a clean-out of five people and then two days to really deep clean it and get it you know we're all these spiderwebs and everything or on the ground, we're gonna pull this carpet up we're gonna pull the padding up and she is going to start fresh which is fantastic because she's gonna get a brand new beginning andI'm happy to give it to her. Ben: Monday if she's having flooring guy comment I'm just gonna also have a painter commend she doesn't need to replace any of their fixtures because we were able to clean them in salvaged out bathroom we've all used it at least twice today bedroom cobwebs are actually on the outside everything on the inside is clean we remove the floors wipe everything down since she's painting and redoing the floors we left them aside for her be easier for her new crew to come in and see carousel hallway. Again the closet the limits this is the worst room in the whole actually with the equal matter you see here it's actually gonna have a hard laminate or tile pudding so she's having all the tax dripping ripped up because we weren't able to actually clean it. We could have done that pushing things in you a-hole reader. I think we do provide hope and I think we provide a new beginning a new lease on life a new start and this house is the perfect scenario she lost her entire family eight years ago she's in a deep depression and she's living in filth because this is the way that she feels inside and just from the first time meeting her she's so embarrassed and she's so sad and I just wanted to help her and I want to transform this house to where when she comes home. She's actually happy to be home and she's not living in spiders and roaches and milk from 2017 and you know the stench in here is just for it the cat's the dogs there are feces everywhere, so no one should have to live like that and it's just super sad that someone can get that depressed that they want their environment to match how they feel on the inside. It's just super sad and you know I think the biggest misconception that I see from our followers and viewers is they think the hoarders are lazy and that honestly could not be further from the truth. They're not lazy, they are debilitated by depression and I know everyone has had a bad day and they've been depressed or sad at some point in their life where you just want to lay on the couch all day well that day that you're laying on the couch you're probably not putting your trash in a bag and taking it out imagine that every single day for years and that's what's causing these people to do this. They are not lazy at all they're just debilitated by depression and a tragic event that happened in their life.

In this episode, we are Frankly Speaking with the co-authors of Our Happy Divorce, Nikki and Ben.   Nikki knows how being supported by a strong, loving family can influence the way a person navigates life, love, marriage, and motherhood. Having grown up as a member of the iconic San Francisco 49ers football family, she was thrown into the limelight at a young age. The values her family instilled in her have helped shape who she is today, and she continues to live by them.coparents Ben intimately understands the detriment divorce can cause in the lives of children. The example of his parents’ divorce instilled in him a deep commitment "to do" better by his own kids. Ben is an investor, board member, philanthropist, golfer, and sports enthusiast. But above all, he is a dedicated father and family man who understands the importance of putting his ego aside and his children first. IT  WAS  NOT  PERFECT ... Nikki and Ben define their own personal story with us and discuss what happy looks like today. Inspired by their son, they developed ways to co-parent, step-parent with an emphasis on putting the children first. As they say, “If we can do it, anyone can do it”. As Catherine says, "DIVORCE does not mess your kids up, it is how both parents BEHAVE before, during, and after divorce that can mess your children up." There is a different way to get Divorced. Let’s talk about it… Getting to the “Happy” … We chat about cleaning up the wreckage of the past and forgiveness. How can we stop pointing the finger at our spouse and get honest with ourselves? Do not fool yourself, your children know what is going on. Open discussions about financial settlements and joint custody. Using the Divorce Process to redefine what your life, your finances, and relationship will be like post-divorce. Co-Parenting and Step-parenting survival tips during the pandemic. Want to learn more about Our Happy Divorce? Visit their website at https://ourhappydivorce.com/ Whether you are thinking of divorce/separation, are in the midst of a divorce, or embarking on your new life after divorce, this episode has something to help you. If you have questions for us or a topic you’d like us to cover, contact us at hello@mydivorcesolution.com or visit MyDivorceSolution.com ----more---- Karen Chellew: Welcome to We Chat Divorce. Hello, I'm Karen Chellew, legal liaison, here with Catherine Shanahan, CDFA. We're the co-founders of My Divorce Solution. We're a company whose mission is to change the way people get divorced by providing a different approach, financial clarity, and an online course to help couples develop a transparent plan that will optimize the outcome of their divorce. Karen Chellew: Each podcast we sit down with professionals who provide insight and frank discussion on real people, real situations, and real divorce. Today we welcome Nikki and Ben, co-authors of Our Happy Divorce: How Ending Our Marriage Brought Us Together. That's fantastic. Co-founders Ben Heldfond and Nikki DeBartolo understand that no divorce is ever easy, especially for those involved. Karen Chellew: After nearly a decade together the couple decided to split, and inspired by their son, Asher, to find ways to happily navigate a divorce. Ben and Nikki created Our Happy Divorce, a service empowering and inspiring people to think differently about divorce, co-parenting, stepparenting, and what it means to put kids first. Nikki and Ben describe themselves as ordinary people who have accomplished something extraordinary. They have sidestepped a lot of the booby traps that make most divorces acrimonious. Nikki and Ben say, "If we can do it, you can do it." Thank you. Ben: No truer words have ever been spoken. Karen Chellew: I love that. So first and foremost, I want to say thank you for the beautiful gift you sent of your book, your bookmark. It was awesome. Beautiful gift. And for people who receive that, it's just so inspiring just to open the box and feel the book, so you guys have done a great job. Catherine Shanahan: Aren't you supposed to send that over to me, Karen? Karen Chellew: What, the chocolate? Catherine Shanahan: Yeah. Where'd that go, Karen? Karen Chellew: Everything but the chocolate's on its way. Ben: Everything. Catherine Shanahan: I'll give you my address so I can get one of those. Ben: There you go. That's a deal. We'll get that off to you. Karen Chellew: Oh, that's good. So a service inspiring people to think a different way about divorce. How do you do that? Ben: Well, I think we do it through our story. All this book is is our experience. We're not lawyers, we're not therapists. We just happen to figure out a way to have an acrimonious divorce. We didn't have a roadmap. Collaborative divorce was sort of in the beginning stages, but you know, it was just the two of us. We say if we can do it, anybody can do it because we are two Type A personalities who somehow came to a point of putting the past behind us and not making anybody a villain, and putting our son first. And then everything sort of fell into place. Nikki: Right. It wasn't perfect in the beginning. I think people need to realize that, that we went through some rocky months. Ben: Right. Catherine Shanahan: Yeah, yeah. So that's a really good point, Nikki. Let's talk about that a little bit because if you read anything I write, or if you ever talk to me, or if anyone has gone through our process, they'll hear me say not once, but probably a thousand times because I am a stepmom. I have been divorced and I have raised five children in a blended family, so I am a firm believer that divorce does not mess your kids up. It's how the parents behave before divorce, during divorce, and after divorce that can mess your children up. Catherine Shanahan: However, you call your company or your book The Happy Divorce and I think everybody has to define happy. What is happy, and that can mean something different to everyone, and that's okay. Nikki: Right. Catherine Shanahan: So happy for somebody could be that... as a stepmom I can remember, happy for me sometimes was that my stepchildren went home on Sunday night, and that's okay. Nikki: That's okay. Catherine Shanahan: Because it's exhausting, right? Ben: Yeah, yeah. Nikki: That's totally normal. Ben: Yeah, and Nikki said it took time. I think if you had asked us 13 years ago what happy meant, what our definition of a happy divorce was, it would have been that we could just be in the same room together. Catherine Shanahan: Exactly. Nikki: Or at like an event together or a birthday party together. Ben: And not make everybody feel uncomfortable, but most importantly our son. Catherine Shanahan: Right. Ben: So even today, we know people who have happy divorces, they might not be to the extreme that Nikki and mine are, or they might be better, it's just that you put the kids first. You don't hand the kids the emotional bill to pay for something that they had absolutely no choice in. Catherine Shanahan: Exactly. I think your son said it so cute, and he is... Asher, right? Nikki: Yes. Karen Chellew: Adorable. Catherine Shanahan: Oh, my God. He is so cute. I watched your video clip and he said, "You know, I always wanted siblings. Well, maybe not so much." Ben: After it came, right, yeah. Nikki: And he was like, "Oh, can't they go back?" No. Catherine Shanahan: Yeah, yeah. I thought that was so cute, and it's so true. So his happy was, "I got them." Well, maybe today I don't want them. Ben: Right. Catherine Shanahan: You know, it was so cute, it kind of ties it all up. And so in divorce we say that with our couples when we're negotiating a settlement where we're going through their financial portrait with them, which it's kids and your finances. So what would your happy be? Is your happy keeping the house? Is your happy having the retirement monies? Is your happy having your children three days a week? Every other weekend so you can have your career? Define what your happy is. So I love the title of your book, and it's okay to define that, and to define your co-parenting, because your co-parenting is not the same as my co-parenting. Nikki: No. It's different for everybody. Karen Chellew: And it's okay. Nikki: Yeah. Catherine Shanahan: So how did you come to your happy, the two of you? Nikki: Well... I think it took less work on my part than it did on his. Karen Chellew: Oh, why is that? Nikki: I sort of set out thinking, "How am I going to do this?" My parents are still married after 52 years, so I kind of had the mindset of, "Okay, what am I going to do to make my son's life as close to the way I grew up as possible, but being divorced?" So that was always something that was in my head, and it was sort of ingrained to try to figure out a way to make him... have what I had growing up and not feel slighted. Ben: Yeah. Nikki: [crosstalk 00:07:40] not so much. Ben: And I on the other hand grew up in the complete opposite household of a family of parents who didn't have a happy divorce. So part of it was ingrained in me, being a child of the '80s, well, actually I was born in early '70s, but parents were divorced in the '80s. It was the way it was, right? People got divorced, and it wasn't, "How are we going to get along? How are we going to co-parent?" It's like, "We're going to go to war. I'm going to get my lawyer. You're going to get yours and it's going to be battle." Ben: I also was in a completely different place in my life emotionally. I wasn't a very happy person when I left our marriage. For me, that manifest itself at pointing the finger at Nikki. It was all her fault. It was all her... you know, if only she hadn't done this. If only she should have done... you know. And 'shoulding' all over myself. That's S-H-O-U-L-D, not the other one. Ben: But you know, and then what it took was a realization or clarity to find out what my part was in the relationship. So in order to get to happy, I had to, we had to clean up the wreckage of the past, and we had to get honest about what our part is and understand that it takes two to make a relationship, it takes two to ruin a relationship. Ben: And just like our happy divorce it works that way too. Now it takes four to make it, because we're both remarried. In our book, it doesn't go into what happened, who did what, who didn't do what, because at the end of the day, what we realize is all that stuff doesn't matter. What matters is that we both came to a place of forgiveness, but also admitted what we had done wrong. Karen Chellew: How did you come to a place of forgiveness? What started turning the tide from the anger and resentment, or whatever the negative emotions were? What happened on both of your parts to just start to turn that tide a little bit. Ben: Well, yeah, for me, again, Nikki wasn't as scorned I guess you could say, which is weird for her. Nikki: That's really weird for me. Ben: But you know, I left the house- Nikki: You [crosstalk 00:09:54] the one out for blood. Ben: Right, exactly. I left the house in a way that I look back and I almost cringe, a very dramatic way. I took off my ring. I put it on the bathroom counter with a picture of us torn out and I left. Nikki: Very dramatic. Ben: Very dramatic. Nikki: Like something I would have done. Ben: And I went and I did my research, and I looked for the best shark lawyer, the one who had all the biggest cases in Tampa. Definitely did my research. I called him and explained to him what I wanted, and I wanted to destroy Nikki, and I wanted to embarrass her, and I wanted to show our son what a fraud she was, at least how I saw her. Ben: So he took a very hefty retainer from me, and then he wrote up a manual on how we were going to go about doing what I wanted to accomplish. And I didn't read it for a little bit, and it was in my backpack that I carry everywhere, and I was on a plane back from LA to Tampa, and I pulled it out and I decided to read it. I got two pages into it, and this thing was like 30 pages long. Nikki: That's probably the same thing he gives everybody else. Ben: Right, just different boiler plate. Nikki: Names are just changed. Ben: Exactly. And then all of a sudden I had a moment of clarity, and I saw for the first time in a long time that if I went down this path, continuing to read this War and Peace destruction manual what it was going to lead to, because I knew where it was going to lead to, because I had been down that road. I had been part of my parents divorce down the road. Ben: Or I could try to find a different way and a different path. So I called Nikki when I landed and I said, "I need some time. I need some space." Because I knew I couldn't deal with the divorce in the head space I was in. Karen Chellew: Right. Ben: And probably Nikki too. We weren't ready to start talking about the end until we cleared up the past and found our part. So I called the lawyer and said, "I'm going to find a different way, if you could send back the balance of the retainer," and conveniently there wasn't much left. But it was the best money I ever spent. So then I started working with somebody that I knew, and just went through and found out what my in the relationship was, and my part in the ending of the relationship. And realized about halfway through that I wouldn't want to be married to me either at that time. Ben: I was not in a good place. I was not the father I thought I was, but more importantly I wasn't the husband I thought I was. So then I called Nikki to coffee, and she probably had no idea why I was calling her. Nikki: No. Because I kind of knew this was going on with him, so I mean- Ben: She knew. It was that black sedan that was following me everywhere. Nikki: And I knew that this was the mindset he was in. And I just knew I hadn't gotten to that place. I mean, yes, I was angry and I was sad and I was upset, but I wasn't in the place that he was at. Where I sort of was like, "Let's just get this over with. Let's just fix this... fix it to a point where it's just done." To me, I went at this a totally different way. Nikki: I did hire a lawyer, but it was kind of more like, "What do I do? Here's this divorce, what am I going to do with this?" So mine wasn't, "Let's attack him and let's kill him." Ben: Well, your hardest thing also was that you said it too, it was a, "Fix it." Nikki's a fixer. She wants to get in there and fix everything and not call her a control freak, but control freak. Nikki: I am a control freak. 100% Catherine Shanahan: Were you living together at the time or were you separated in different homes? Nikki: We were in different homes, but not really. At that time- Ben: Somewhere in between there... I was staying in a hotel for about six months, and then I'd come home and- Nikki: Did you really stay in a hotel for six months? Ben: Six months. The biggest most exciting time of my life during that time was when they released a new movie on the On Demand thing at the hotel. Catherine Shanahan: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Ben: Because I'd watched them all. And then I eventually got a place. So we weren't officially divorced yet when I had my own place, but it was when we told our son. He forced our hand to tell him because... Why don't you tell the story about us thinking we were getting over on him. Nikki: Oh yeah. So Ben would come over every morning before Asher would go to school. And you know, he would make sure he was there before he woke up. One morning- Catherine Shanahan: How old was he at the time? Ben: Four? Karen Chellew: Yeah? Ben: Four. Yeah. Nikki: So he comes in my room. Ben is already there. And he looks at me and says, "Hey mom, where did Daddy sleep last night?" And I always thought I did a really good job of messing up the bed thinking like, "Oh, okay." Ben: Yeah. Nikki: And I was like, "What do you mean? Right here." And he's like, "Where did Daddy sleep last night?" And I was like, "Oh, boy. This kid is way smarter than we're giving him credit for, so we need to do something, and it's time for us to sit him down as best we can with someone that young and just say, "Hey, this is what's happening. We love you." That's probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life. Ben: Oh yeah. It was hard. But we framed it in a way and were open with him. If anything from our experience, again, not lawyers, not therapists, but through my experience with my parents, my experience with my son and our divorce is the idea that kids are resilient and they'll get over it, or they don't see things... is nonsense. It is absolute nonsense and I can say that from experience on both sides of it, right? "Oh, our kids will get over it. They're resilient. They don't know what's going on." Here a four-year-old who knew- Nikki: Exactly what was going on. Ben: Right. Playing Inspector Clouseau. Knew that I hadn't slept there because my bed wasn't made, my pillows weren't ruffled or whatever he did. So that's another message we try to get across is that, "Don't fool yourself." To me, and staying on my soapbox too much here, but to me, that's justification for behaviors." Karen Chellew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Nikki: And too, to this day he still claims that he saw boxes, which we never let a box- Ben: At least we thought we didn't. Nikki: But he still says he saw boxes. Catherine Shanahan: You know, I think sometimes even if he didn't see boxes, he probably heard you talk about boxes. Nikki: Right. And in his head, he's like, "Oh yeah." Catherine Shanahan: You can probably remember talking about something in your childhood, but you don't really remember going to Disney World when you were two, but you remember seeing pictures that you went to Disney World when you were two. Nikki: Right. Catherine Shanahan: So you think you remember you were in Disney World when you were two, right? Ben: Yeah. Nikki: It's true. Catherine Shanahan: I'm sure he heard about that or saw that. So he's a smart kid. Like I said, I feel like I know him a little bit from watching the video. Nikki: Yes. Ben: Yeah, he wraps up the book too. He's got a chapter at the end of the book that just puts a bow on it perfectly, because our happy... Your answer, "How does your happy look?" We didn't know it was going to be happy at the time, but you know, I called her to coffee after I'd done this work on myself. The first thing I told her was I was sorry, that I'd done some work myself and I realized that it's no one's fault, it's not her fault, it's not my fault. We equal parts of this and I'm sorry for my part. Ben: I went through some of the things. I wasn't a very good husband. I ignored you, I didn't... blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm not going to apologize again, I already did that. Karen Chellew: Yeah. Ben: You're only getting it once. Catherine Shanahan: Yeah, she's sitting here smiling and she's like [crosstalk 00:17:45]. Ben: She loves it. And so we went through it and then she apologized to me, which was- Nikki: Which was probably the first and only time I've ever apologized. Catherine Shanahan: And you're lucky because we have this recorded [crosstalk 00:17:59]- Ben: Yeah. Catherine Shanahan: You can both listen on repeat. Nikki: Yeah. Ben: And then from that moment on it didn't just all of a sudden become happy, but there was room to move, because then we both genuinely accept each other's apologies, and we told each other we loved each other, and that we committed at that meeting to putting our son first with every decision we made. So our happy looked like not what was in Nikki's bank account or Nikki's family's bank account or what I thought I deserved. Our happy was what was best for our son. Nikki: Right. Catherine Shanahan: Yeah. So you know we like to get real with everyone, and a lot of our viewers come from a wide range, and we deal with a lot of affluent people, but we also deal with people who aren't affluent, or they don't know that they're affluent. Ben: Right. Catherine Shanahan: We do a lot of budgeting and we hone in on financials with everyone. And as a CDFA, I sit down and Karen does a lot of the budgeting with our clients, pre-divorce and post-divorce. So we listen to your story and it sounds great. You afforded him the ability to go through the mucky waters of what he needed to figure out for himself, which is a luxury, because he had that time to do that. Catherine Shanahan: And you blamed her in the beginning and you had all that anger, and you went and hired the bulldog, which oh, my God, we hear so many times people go and hire the bulldog, and only 10% of divorce cases need whatever everybody wants to refer to as the bulldog, and Karen loves to jump in and really get the definition of what a bulldog actually means, because you don't really need a bulldog. But anyway, that's a whole other podcast. Catherine Shanahan: But what did you do with your finances, because a lot of people who have money there, they can't access it during that time. How do you stay in a hotel room if you can't get the money? Did you two have your separate bank accounts, because people can't be happy if they can't get their financials, right? So if somebody out there wants to have a happy divorce, they come to us. Catherine Shanahan: So for example, for us we start with your finances. So we can afford them that time to work through the financials so they don't run to attorneys. You don't need two attorneys gathering your financial data. It's the same data you're collecting. You're paying thousands and thousands... We save people hundreds of thousands of dollars because why are you paying them to gather the same information and go through the packet of information you were asked to gather. Ben: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Nikki: Right. Catherine Shanahan: Why would you both have to do that. So we do that so that they can work through their stuff, right? Ben: Yeah. Catherine Shanahan: So during that time- Ben: I think what's important at least is yes from my experience, and also from this process of writing this book with Nikki and talking with people, it doesn't matter if there are a thousand dollars in the bank or there's a hundred million dollars in the bank, you know for the most part, because what it comes down to is financial insecurity. Ben: And what I think the problem with divorce and why sometimes it goes sideways is because it deals with two of the biggest trigger buttons, I could use a different word, but trigger buttons of our human condition and that's romance and finance, and both those speak directly to ego, right? Catherine Shanahan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ben: And so our financial settlement was the same as our custody agreement is that we try to as much as possible take ego out of it, and to try to put Asher first. So when it came time to discussing finances, it was, "Okay, what's best for Asher?" Nikki or myself had to make sacrifices, or give more or take less or whatever it was, but it was... Look, it wasn't simple, right? It was easier though when we looked at it through a pair of glasses of what's best for Asher, and you take the ego out of it as much as possible. Nikki: Right. I mean, I think too for him it was about his life. Ben: Right. Nikki: And the way we wanted him to be raised. We wanted him to be raised at both houses as basically as much the same- Ben: As possible. Nikki: Even with rules. With four parents, there's a lot of rules too. Ben: Right. Well, there's a lot of communication. Nikki: Right. Ben: The other thing we did, which... We both had lawyers, so I don't want to say that we did this willy nilly. But we did what's called collaborative and it wasn't- Nikki: We did through. Ben: We did. Nikki: We sort of brought it to our lawyers and said, "Hey, this is what we think we want to do." Ben: Right. So what we've tried, and agreed to try is, "Let's figure out what we can do on our own, and let's go through it with this pair of glasses that we now have of what's best for Asher, try to take ego out of it and see where we go." Nikki: And I think for us too, I mean, I guess couples... One of his biggest things with me was, "Do you have a problem with joint custody of our son?" And obviously if he was not a good guy or had some sort of issues that would be a different story, but I mean obviously I had no problem with that. So that was one of the first things that kind of softened him a little bit. Ben: That was the first question I asked was, "Do you have any problem with doing 50/50 everything with our son from the left shoe to the right shoe?" Nikki: Right. Ben: And she said, "Of course not. You're his dad." So I said with the other stuff we can work it out. And so then we started with that foundation, and then we were on the same page with that. Then we went to some other things like the businesses that we had together. Nikki had a jewelry company that she had started that I owned half of. I had a record label that I had started with her sister, which is kind of weird, but you know, so it wasn't necessarily about how much each one was worth at the time or the balance sheet of the jewelry company versus the record label. Nikki: It was things that he could have been like, "Oh, I'm going to get her because I want my half of that." Ben: Yeah, and I had no desire to be in the jewelry business. But if I was looking at it- Nikki: Why should you be? Ben: Yeah, right. Right, but if I'd been looking at it from a scorned ego standpoint, I was like, "I'm going to take the jewelry business because I know how much it means to her." Nikki: Right. Catherine Shanahan: Well I think it's really great that because you work through... Well, let me back up first. It's because I always say two people, you come together and you get married, it takes two people to get married, and it takes two people to get divorced, you know? Ben: Yup. Catherine Shanahan: And none of it has to do with your children. So you took the time to heal first, and then you made the important decision, so Karen, you know and you can pick up from this, the process that we developed because we're both divorced before we started... We saw how people got divorced, and when I went through my divorce eight years ago I just thought, "Hell, people have to get divorced different. This is just ridiculous." Ben: Yeah. Catherine Shanahan: The way we work is you do your financials first, and then you take your agreement, and we do a lot of negotiated agreements, and when we get to them take this to your attorney, pretty much what you're saying and have them draw up this agreement. You don't need them to talk to each other to tell you what you should do for yourselves, right? Nikki: Yup. Ben: Right. Karen Chellew: You just need to know what you want, and they don't necessarily spend a lot of time helping you figure that out. Catherine Shanahan: And you don't need a judge how to set up visitation for your lifestyle and your child. Ben: Control your own destiny. Nikki: I do all our calendar, well, because I'm that person. Catherine Shanahan: Yeah. Ben: Literally, she prints out... We used to- Nikki: I still use paper. Ben: In the beginning we used to meet at the same coffee shop, the same table, with Nikki's calendars, which are legendary, you know, not an iPhone calendar, not a computer, like the actual calendar printed out and we'd go through the month and you know, "What days are you traveling?" And I'd tell her- Catherine Shanahan: I love that. Ben: And we would do the schedule. And then over time this is sort of how the evolution of our divorce happened. Then now, she just does it. I entrust in her, not that I didn't entrust in her before, well maybe not. Catherine Shanahan: But it works. Ben: But it works. But now she does it, and it's in our shared calendar with Asher. Nikki: He knows where he is. He knows where to go. Ben: And it's 15 days, and if- Nikki: Sports is on there. Anything. Everything's on that calendar. Dinners, everybody can see it. Ben: But the thing that we went to too is again, we tried to see where we agreed or what we could do by ourselves and ended up doing the whole thing, and hashing out the whole settlement over many coffee meetings. It didn't just happen at that one coffee, but same table, same coffee shop, and then we handed it to the lawyers. Catherine Shanahan: I love that. Ben: We said, "Add your 'whereas' and run on sentences and you can get it as [crosstalk 00:27:06] as possible, so you can get paid $450 an hour for somebody to then reread it to try to find a way out of that run-on." Anyways... no offense. Karen Chellew: So I'm going to observe here that during all of those coffee shop meetings and all of those different interactions that the end result that you redefined your relationship as parents of Asher, and as your future. So I think that is fantastic, and I think that's what we try to help our client understand that use the divorce the process, and use that time to redefine what you're going to be like post-divorce, because your kids need to be able to depend on that and rely on that. Karen Chellew: And it's a very important time, and the time you spend fighting and arguing with each other, the less time you spend on creating that new relationship. So I think that's key what you did. Ben: Nobody's ever been happy or survived feeding their kids poison hoping the other one dies. Karen Chellew: Right. Ben: I think that happens a lot in divorces is that... And again, one beautiful thing about this process is when I left that house I was angry, I was going to go to war, I was going to go down the same path as my parents had gone done. But now I realize my parents didn't sit around the table when they got divorced and premeditate how they were going to not get along and how they were going to get us in the middle of that and all that awkwardness, it was just they were so blinded by the things we talked about earlier, the romance, the finance, and egos were hurt so they were blind to it. Ben: I was blind to it. When I left that house and I hired the lawyer and I wasn't talking to Nikki, I wasn't purposely sitting there going, "Hm, how am I going to screw up my kid?" But it's hard. It's hard on them. It was hard on me growing up. Catherine Shanahan: Yeah, well you know, nobody gets married thinking they're going to get divorced. Nikki: No. Ben: No. Catherine Shanahan: And you know, truth be told, myself included, there are times that you sit back and you say you wish your kid didn't have to go between one home and the other. Ben: And he does too. Catherine Shanahan: Nobody wants their child to do that or spend half their Christmas. Then you have more children and you don't want them to have to leave their siblings and all of that. It's not an easy process, and you can't be normal and wonder, "Is my child okay?" Even though they're happy and healthy. We know they are. I mean, my children are thriving, and I'm happy for them. They're doing so well. Catherine Shanahan: I'm remarried. I got married in June. I feel like I have the love of my life and I'm so blessed, and my children love him, so all of that, but we do wonder sometimes. But I think that's okay, and I think that's part of just being healthy human beings. But sometimes, you know, we deal with so many people's emotions they can't see past that. Catherine Shanahan: I think what your son has learned most importantly is the respect, and the reason why you let Nikki take over this whole calendar issue is because you respect her, and she respects you and that's why she does it. For your son to learn how a couple can respect each other is probably the best gift, because that's the best love you can give a partner. Ben: Yeah. Catherine Shanahan: Because you can't fully love someone if you don't respect them. Ben: And you brought up just a good point about co-parents too. And our spouses currently are... Just the other thing, I'm sure you see clients and people who are divorced miserable, but remarried and happy, and yet they still have this hatred towards the other one, and it's just like if you could just take a step back and realize that if you hadn't gotten divorced, and you hadn't gone down that, you wouldn't have met the other person. Ben: And our spouses, Chad and Nadia, there's no question who we were meant to be with. Nikki and Chad, I still... I'm like, "She never looked at me that way. She never grabbed my hand like that." It's like I never think, "What if." And then on the flip side, Nadia- Nikki: It's the same way though. I tell her too. I look at her sometimes and I'm like, "I couldn't be married to him," but she just smiles and loves him. Ben: She loves me, the unconditional love, which means you love the good and the bad just as much. And then Asher gets to see this, and he gets to see healthy relationships, and he gets to see that even though his parents are divorced, and this is the most sobering part about it. A couple years ago we were on a fishing trip and out of nowhere he said, "This divorce is hard on me." And this is like three years ago. Ben: I felt like saying, "You little SOB. You have no idea what a bad divorce is or how hard divorce is." And then it hit me. Even as good as Nikki and I have it, and I don't think... Maybe it could get better if we lived together, but besides that- Nikki: No, it would definitely not get better if we lived together. Karen Chellew: He doesn't know that. He doesn't know that. Ben: So but just the idea of being displaced every couple days, and even though we live seven houses down, I've seen him go, "Oh, I forgot my math book at Mom's. I've got to go down and get it." Nikki: But he even says too, sometimes he'll look at me and go, "You and Dad get along so well. Sometimes I don't understand why you're not married anymore." And I'm like, "We get along really well right now. We were meant to be best friends. We weren't meant to be husband and wife." I go, "You were meant to be here, so that's why we..." 100%. Karen Chellew: That's beautiful. Ben: Yeah, so a lot of kids read Dr. Seuss books as a kid, he was always an animal junkie, so we would read him animal encyclopedias, and he knew every single animal, where they came from, where they lived. And we always knew that we wanted to take him to Africa on a safari. But with the shots and everything... So if anything was going to send our divorce south, and it was if one of the other ones had taken Asher to Africa without the other one. Ben: So this past summer, Nikki and Asher and I went to Africa, just the three of us together on a safari. Nikki: I didn't feed him to any animals. Ben: And I didn't die. There were no lion accidents. Nikki: No accidents. Ben: But it was a great opportunity for our son. Nikki: Yes. Ben: Our spouses, when we told them- Nikki: I mean, we asked them if they wanted. Ben: Right. Nikki: It was this open invitation trip. Ben: But her husband just has this small responsibility of being a sheriff of Hillsborough County, and my wife was raising our two sons and starting a practice of her own, so it just wasn't possible. Nikki: Raising your what? Ben: What? Nikki: Your two sons. Ben: Oh, no, two kids. Well, two sons and daughter. But she has two young kids at home, it just wasn't possible for them to go, but the response, and this is where it really just comes full circle, wasn't, "Are you crazy that you think it's okay for you to go to Africa in the middle of the bush with your ex-wife? Are you nuts?" It was, "Asher will love that. What a great opportunity he has to go to Africa with his parents, and have that experience." Nikki: And day two of our trip he looked at me and he said, "Thank you so much. This is the best trip I could have ever gone on." Karen Chellew: That's awesome. That's awesome. Catherine Shanahan: That's really rare. There's not very many... I don't know anyone... That's really rare and really special. Ben: Yeah, and again- Nikki: And I mean, there are people that still think we're crazy. Ben: Right. And it didn't happen overnight. Nikki: Our families thought we were crazy in the beginning. Ben: I still think they might. Nikki: I think they might too. Ben: But the important thing is, I think we started this conversation with this, and that it didn't happen overnight. Nikki: Right. Ben: And a small example of that is when Nikki married Chad, Nikki called me and said, "I don't think that I feel comfortable with inviting you to the wedding. It's because I don't want people to worry about how Ben's feeling, take away from 'this is my day.'" And I was, "Completely understandable." It wasn't ready. It wasn't the right time. It wasn't about me. It was about Nikki and her day and her second day, her and Chad. Ben: And she's right, all the guests saying, "Oh, the ex-husband's here? This is weird." But again, fast forward about three or four years later, I get married and Nikki and Chad and her whole family are at my wedding, and not like, "Gotcha," like, "Hey, you didn't invite me to yours, I'm going to show everybody I'm a bigger person." Sorry- Nikki: There's something in my ear. Ben: My phone is... So that she came to my wedding. So it's been progress, not perfection. Nikki: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ben: But it's been progress and it's getting there, and it didn't happen overnight. We've been doing this for 13 years. Catherine Shanahan: That's awesome. Karen Chellew: Yeah. Ben: It's just become more natural. Catherine Shanahan: Yeah, that's really good. Karen Chellew: That is great. So let's pivot to the topic of the day because I think a lot of people will benefit from your perspective on the pandemic and COVID and parenting children through... or co-parenting children who are traveling back and forth, and a lot of what we're hearing is, "I don't know if my son or my daughter or my children are safe at the other parent's house because they're not sheltering in place and they're not making sure everything's taken care of." So we're hearing a lot of that. Karen Chellew: And everybody's just cooped up together, so what can you offer the parents and the kids going through this right now to offer some kind of support? Nikki: I think for us, I mean, obviously we have it a little differently than most divorced couples, but I think in the beginning we sort of sat down and had a conversation, an open conversation. We weren't going to keep anything from Asher. We wanted him to know what was going on in the world, but we were on the same page about what Asher was... You know, in the beginning it was kind of a little bit slower process, "Oh, they can do this. They can do this. They can't do this." Then all of a sudden it was like, "No, you can't do anything." Nikki: So I think it took both of us to try to explain to him too in the beginning like, "Listen, you really can't leave the house. You're not going anywhere. You can get in your car and you can go for a drive, but you can't stop anywhere. You can't talk to your friends. You can't see your friends. You can't do anything." And I think the same went for the two of us. We kind of said, "Listen, what's going on at your house? Where are you going to go? Where am I going?" We kind of got on the same page where we were like, "You have to shut it down." Nikki: I mean, other than the fact that my husband has to go to work, he even tries to shut it down where he goes into work, goes in his office, he sees all of about two people when he goes into work, and that's it, because he doesn't have a choice. Ben: Right. Nikki: But we just decided in the beginning, "Let's shut this down." And so Asher's obviously homeschooled now, or whatever that's called, virtual school, whatever. Ben: It's the new homeschool, yeah. Nikki: That kind of even made a decision too that the days Asher is at Ben and Nadia's house, he comes over to our house by 9:30 in the morning to start school, unless he's got a Zoom class that starts before that, and he does all of his schoolwork at our house until he's done, because- Ben: Otherwise it'd be mayhem with the two young... his brothers and sisters going into- Nikki: Them trying to do their school, and then him trying, you know, conflicts. All they want to do, when he's there they just want to be with him. Ben: Right. Catherine Shanahan: What's the age different? Ben: Four and seven, so- Nikki: And Asher's 16. Ben: Yeah, so [crosstalk 00:39:14]. The other thing is that I think that the way we handle this pandemic and sort of a microcosm of how we handle life in our divorce. We had a conversation. We both agreed upon the rules at both houses that we were going to social distance, we were going to be responsible, we were going to shelter in place. We were going to do all the same things at both houses. And once we did that, all of a sudden, now our sphere of quarantine has widened. Ben: That's why Nikki and I are sitting next to each other right now and not because- Nikki: Because we quarantined together. I see the kids almost every day. Ben: Right. We can go down to her house because Asher's been going back and forth, being the outbreak monkey, so if it was going to be in one house, it was going to be in the other house anyway. Nikki: We're all getting it. If it's in one house, we're all getting it. Catherine Shanahan: What do you do, Ben, if Nadia doesn't agree with Nikki? Ben: About... Catherine Shanahan: Parenting, rules, or where you go? Ben: I think one of the greatest things about Nadia and Chad is we all co-parent together. Nadia's a therapist specializing in kids, so she brings a different perspective. She doesn't try to step on Nikki's shoes. She disagrees with some things we do with Asher, but she says it, and I'm sure Chad does too. She says it, and they say it, but at the end of the day, we're his parents. At the end of the day, we're going to make the ultimate decision, but for the most part, since it's evolved, the four of us usually sit down on the big ticket items. Ben: Nikki and I have different parenting styles. Nadia and I have different parenting styles. Nikki: Chad and I have different parenting styles. Ben: Right, and Nikki and I would have different parenting styles whether we were married or divorced. So it's just about finding the- Nikki: Some sort of common ground with all of us. Ben: Picking your battles. I learned to pick my battles with her. It's not worth the... Catherine Shanahan: Yeah. Ben: So the COVID thing, we ran out of paper towels for just a small example, but you know, I called Nikki, I knew that she probably had 25 cases, and even if she didn't I knew that she would give us one. Nikki: I did give you some. Ben: That's just the way- Catherine Shanahan: Are you hoarding? Ben: She's always been. There is no difference. She's- Nikki: I do not hoard toilet paper. I don't understand the toilet paper thing. I barely have enough toilet paper in the house. Ben: She's been preparing for this thing for what, 45 years? Karen Chellew: So you didn't say, "Asher, when you're at mom's house, just grab toilet paper, throw it in your bag and just run out"? Ben: No, and I go over there and I got caught robbing her pantry. Nikki: Yes, for snacks. And then if you notice my hair is pink. It is not normally pink. This has been a quarantine thing. And his daughter is convinced that her hair is going to be pink too, so I tried once, her hair's darker than mine, so didn't work. So now I've just instead of asking for permission, I'm like, "Okay, well I'm dyeing your daughter's hair pink." Ben: Yeah, I found out after I got home from work yesterday. This is, again, what our life is like today. It truly is. You talk about the byline on the book, but it's also the other one we talk about is finding a different kind of love. That's what we've done over the past 14 years, or however long it's been. I love this woman. I've always loved this woman. I think we kind of got confused with being in love and love. But luckily enough we never lost... We might have lost it for a little bit there, but we got back to it. Ben: Then it's evolved into this thing, you know, that is beyond us, beyond our wildest imagination. Again, if we can do it, and this might sound like French or Latin to some of your listeners right now, it's real, but it was a process. Karen Chellew: That's awesome. Ben: You know, if you're starting out, I don't know what you tell your clients, but take small steps, and that's what we had to do in the beginning is get the small wins, get the softball game where there wasn't an awkward feeling or event at your kid's school where you didn't walk away feeling awkward. That's a win. Nikki: Yup. Ben: That's a small win, and then the wins start piling up. Before you know it you're in Africa and no one's dying. Catherine Shanahan: I love that. We tell our clients you know, "You do not have to tell your children that their mom's an alcoholic, or their dad's an idiot. If they're an idiot or an alcoholic they'll see it for themselves." Ben: Right. Nikki: They will. Catherine Shanahan: Just be the dad or the mom that you want to be because that's what they're going [crosstalk 00:44:09]. Ben: Love that. Catherine Shanahan: Like I said it brings tears to my eyes. Literally I had chills when I watched your video because, you know, I do what I do and Karen can speak for herself, but I know that she does it also, but we do what we do because we're advocates for the children of the parents that we helped, and we've helped over 400 couples already. One day I'm hoping that the children of the parents will stand up and say, "Those women helped my parents divorce a better way," you know? Catherine Shanahan: We don't need attorneys fighting for parents to set a parenting schedule or to help divide assets. That's what you have professionals to do. So we're doing what we're doing to help people divorce a better way. We just need the attorneys to tie it up and put the 'as is' or 'as set forth' or whatever those words are. We don't really care. We just want them to have financial clarity and to help them to set up a co-parenting plan that works for their family. Catherine Shanahan: I'm like Nikki, I like to write paper agendas and put stickers on everything and all that stuff. Nikki: Me too. I love it. Catherine Shanahan: That's how I like it too. Nikki: I just won't get rid of it. Catherine Shanahan: I love hearing your story because I think that's how it should be. Ben: Yeah. Catherine Shanahan: I hope you can come to our Mrs2Me Summit and maybe speak and talk to our attendees. Ben: Oh, we'd love to because that's why we wrote the book. It's not... This is truly an altruism. Nobody wants to spill their... And in the book we talk about our shortcomings. We talk about our failures. We're imperfect, but what we have is real and just for it to be inspirational. We're so happy to do this thing, and then run into people like you guys and others who... Ben: We kind of kept our head down. As silly as it sounds, when we got divorced there was no Facebook or Instagram. There's Myspace, but not a lot of divorced, co-parenting- Catherine Shanahan: Myspace, is that even around? Karen Chellew: I don't remember that. Ben: Right, so we didn't have support groups online to go to. Then even writing the book, it took us four years to write this book because we'd get in a fight, this was my idea and I was- Nikki: [crosstalk 00:46:16] say, "No, I'm not doing your book." Ben: I'm not doing your effing book, blah, blah, blah. Nikki: Yeah. Ben: So then all of a sudden we get the book out and we're starting to do some research, and we see this huge community online. It's not like, "Oh, no, we just launched a book and there's so many other..." It was like, "This is great." Nikki: Like, "This is awesome." Catherine Shanahan: Yeah. Ben: Because these people have the same goal as us and it's to let people know- Nikki: There's a different way. Ben: There's a different way going into it. Not even after they're divorced and it's yucky and all that, but I think I went into it thinking if I get divorced, it's War of the Roses. It's on. This is the only way to go. Nikki: That's the only kind of divorce I ever knew though. Catherine Shanahan: I tell people, "No." They come to us sometimes when they've been the process and we're like, "Oh, my gosh, I wish you would have came here first because you just wait..." I mean, they spent 20, 40,000, and they come with bags of papers. They don't even know what they have. I look at Karen, because the legal process to me is such a crock sometimes. It's not logical thinking, and as a financial I'm like, "What?" So she's like, "It's the process. This is the process." Look at her, she's laughing because I get so annoyed that people spend money for that. Catherine Shanahan: So we're digital. We work nationally, so I just crack up at the process. So I just wish people come here first because it would save them so much angst. It starts couples fighting when they don't even have to fight. Ben: Right. Catherine Shanahan: I said, "Oh, my God," because they get served this nasty language and they say, "Oh, my God, he's going after this," or, "She's going after this." And the couple will say, "I didn't mean that. I didn't mean to do that." So now a war began where the person didn't even mean it. Catherine Shanahan: So when you said you got to work out your stuff first, I was like, "Thank God he came to his senses," because he didn't really want to attack you, but that's how it would have started because like you said, Nikki said, "Yeah, he probably sends that to everybody." That's exactly what that attorney does. And unfortunately they have to send it like that because that's the process. I'm glad you [crosstalk 00:48:28]. Ben: For us, at least for me it was really thin ice. I think that that's the thing is one misstep... I don't know if you guys saw The Marriage Story, but that is a perfect example of one... If she just maybe read that letter in that first meeting, it might have turned out the way it seemed like the movie had ended. And for me, if I hadn't just had that moment of clarity right then or pull it out at the particular time, whatever it was and whenever it happened, who knows, but it's in the beginning, it's just so... It's a powder keg. Ben: To go to people who are aligned with a better outcome will help you, guide you down that path of the right way. We didn't have that, but luckily we got there. Karen Chellew: Kudos. Ben: Someone tell that woman, Scarlet Johansson, "Read the letter." Nikki: Yeah. Catherine Shanahan: Yes, yes. Karen Chellew: Well you guys are great, and I think one of my takeaways from today is first and foremost have the conversation. Try to have as many conversations as you can as rugged as they are, but also what I've noticed from hearing you today is whenever something happens today or yesterday that kind of is a trigger, I see that you assign it to that person, not to your relationship that broke apart years ago. And I think a lot of couples haven't developed the ability to do that whenever the other person does something that's irritating or that creates that trigger, "That's why I divorced him. I hate him. He's a terrible person blah, blah, blah." Karen Chellew: But I see you just saying, "That's Ben." or, "That's Nikki." And we're different and you move on. I think that's key in the ongoing relationship. Nikki: Give it a day [crosstalk 00:50:23] we'll come back to that. Ben: Yeah, I mean, I think Nikki [crosstalk 00:50:26] the same thing is that some of the same buttons that I pushed when we married, I still pushes. She still pushes the same. Like you said about parenting, our parenting skills would be different, our styles would be different if we were divorced or married, same as the personality. Nikki: Right. Ben: But it's a lot easier to accept Nikki today being her best friend than it is being her husband. But it's still, I'll also give it a day when she tells me she's not doing the effing book. I'll let her Italian hot head cool off a little bit. Nikki: Cool off for a minute. Ben: Then I'll come back. Catherine Shanahan: I'll take your roll of paper towels and I'll go home and talk to her tomorrow. Ben: Exactly. Karen Chellew: I love that. Well, thank you both for being with us today and to our listeners, the book is Our Happy Divorce. And your website is ourhappydivorce.com. You're on Instagram. You're on Facebook I believe as well. Ben: Facebook, Twitter, everything @ourhappydivorce. Yeah. Karen Chellew: All right. We're happy to meet you. Nikki: Nice to meet you. Karen Chellew: And we hope to see you soon at Mrs2Me. We'll talk with you a little bit more about that. Nikki: Thank you. Karen Chellew: Thank you again. Have a nice and safe and healthy day. Ben: Yeah, thank you. And thank you for everything you guys do. Thank you. Karen Chellew: Thank you. Have a great day. Bye. Ben: All right, thank you guys so much, and let us know about that whatever... the summit or whatever- Karen Chellew: Yeah, we will. We'll reach out to you. Ben: However you want to use us to help spread the message because it sounds like we're very much aligned. Karen Chellew: Great. Yeah, we'll stay in touch. Ben: Okay. Thank you guys. Karen Chellew: Bye. Catherine Shanahan: Be well. Bye.  

One of the misconceptions people often have about Quiet Light Brokerage is that most of our transactions are e-commerce based. In reality, we have got quite a sizeable number of SaaS deals in our portfolio as well. Today, the Saas CFO Blog founder Ben Murray is here talking about his career, the blog, and his passion for sharing the metrics founders need for better planning and forecasting. Through his blog, Ben shares his passion for organizing the numbers, implementing SaaS metrics, and forecasting. Ben's advice is all about getting the lumps out of the profit and loss. Anyone looking to learn more about the topic both from the acquisition and the ownership side, this is the guy to know and this is the episode to listen to. Episode Highlights: The value in forecasting. Why do it in the first place. Things that proper forecasting might protect your business from. Software recommendations for businesses looking to get started with inputting the financial data. Types of metrics that are important for the owner and potential buyer to dial in on. The Rose Metric. Numbers a potential buyer should be looking for in a healthy acquisition prospect. How deep should the buyer look into the metrics? Warning signs to look for in a business evaluation. The why behind the data. Healthy levels of sustainability in the balance between recurring revenue and sales/marketing expenses. How Ben became so interested in the SaaS arena and why he feels compelled to share his knowledge with his readers. The cash runway forecast model. How to get started in forecasting. Transcription: Joe: Mark one of the misconceptions about Quiet Light Brokerage is that some people think we do; the vast majority of our transactions are e-commerce related when in fact we've got quite a sizeable SaaS component as well. And I understand you had Ben Murray from SaaS CFO on the podcast recently. Mark: Yeah I just recently became familiar with Ben. I was going out and taking a look at some of the people that are writing in this space and just kind of doing some research trying to expand our network in this area and I happened upon Ben's blog and I was absolutely blown away. So Ben is a CFO obviously and specializes in the SaaS arena and talks a lot about the metrics that we want to be able to track in the SaaS world for better forecasting and better planning on the part of SaaS founders. So naturally, I thought I had to have this guy on the podcast. We also sponsored a little ad in his newsletter as well to promote David's webinar. David Newell for those of you that don't know recently did a webinar on how to solve a SaaS business for 6, 7, or 8 figures. We're going to include those in the show notes we'll also make sure that we advertise that in our weekly newsletter if you don't get that; a really, really well received. We've had hundreds of people attend and have had great response from that webinar. We partnered with Ben to help promote that webinar as well. And as I told you Joe just before this call he knows more about SaaS than you and I will ever really know because he lives and breathes this on a day in day out basis. And so we talked a lot about some of the metrics to look at, how to think about some of the metrics, how to calculate some of the metrics in a way that makes sense because we know that we're supposed to be tracking some things like lifetime value, churn, and everything else but how do you actually construct these calculations in a way that makes sense for your business and then forecasting as well. So the topic; I'll be honest, I got a little wide-ranging with my questions because I wanted to ask him every question at once. And it was difficult to stay focused because I wanted to ask every question at once but there's just some really cool nuggets in this podcast including one that you and I talk about all the time and that's cash versus accrual accounting. Joe: Yeah, most people think about it only in terms of e-commerce but SaaS and content they've got to do it as well just to get the lumps out of the P&L. Mark: Yeah I mean look it just comes down to this basic concept accounting; double-entry accounting system has been around for a long time and it's been around for a long time because it works. And so we should be making sure that we're actually paying attention to our books in the proper way and understanding what sort of insights we can pull out of this. Ben talks a lot about the need for forecasting which is something that I'm increasingly growing aware of as being an important tool for business owners. And we talked a little bit about how to do that in the SaaS world in this podcast as well so it's super interesting. And I think for anyone that's interested in SaaS both from an acquisition or an ownership standpoint, Ben is a guy to know, this is a podcast definitely to listen to. Joe: I'm looking forward to listening to it myself. Let's get to it. Mark: All right I have Ben Murray from the SaaSCFO.com, Ben thank you so much for taking the time for a conversation here on SaaS businesses, CFO and everything metric heavy. I'm really excited for this conversation. Ben: Thanks Mark, it's great to be here. Mark: So let's start out pretty simple and give just a quick background on yourself; what you do, and also a little bit about the blog. I found you through your blog the SaaSCFO.com but a little background on yourself so that our listeners know who I'm speaking with. Ben: Sure yeah. My name is Ben Murray and I've been in finance and accounting for the past 20 plus years and my background has been airlines and software specifically SaaS. And so I've been a SaaS CFO for about the last 8 plus years or so. And about 3½ years ago I started blogging at the SaaSCFO.com where I just wanted to share my metrics, models, templates that I've been using and creating over the years and hoping that others will have; they could use those and implement the models and metrics in their businesses right away. Mark: Yeah and look there's a lot of people that write on this material, right? I've come across a lot of different blogs that kind of become this intersection of marketing and metrics and company structure and everything else. Yours is really focused on metrics and metrics from a kind of financial outlook perspective and probably a deeper dive than I found in most other places. So I can definitely really, really appreciate what you're doing here on the blog and some of the information that you share. I want to start off with just kind of a big question, your website title is Ben's post on SaaS metrics and forecast; pretty simple. I want to talk about that second half there and the forecasting side of it. I know a lot of business owners and even buyers who are looking at acquiring a business look at forecasts with a bit of a skeptical eye and wonder well what's the real value on them? Now I think people that are growing businesses at a higher level tend to see the forecasts and see the value in them. But I'd love to pick your brain a little bit about the value in forecasting and creating a good forecasting model and maybe what the foundations are for that. So why don't we start with that first question as why forecast in the first place? I mean isn't it really more wishful thinking or is there a real science behind this. Ben: Yeah there's definitely a science behind it because it really leverages your operational understanding of your business and I really feel you can't forecast until you know where you've been. So really understanding your historical financials, all the metrics around that, and then once you have that then you can put a very good forecast together. But if you don't understand your current financial state it's going to be really hard to create a forecast and obviously, the number one thing is cash, right? Cash is king. So if cash is tight or you think it might be tight you definitely need that forecast to balance resource requests versus cash balances. So that's number one. After that say if you have decent margins then again it's really understanding where your revenue is trending; your margins are trending. And as you scale so you don't get in trouble down the road; if you hire too fast, invest too fast. So forecasts it's definitely I'd say part of science part of intuition but it's really critical I think in any business as you scale and of course just understanding your cash and then the metrics that are coming out of your forecast. Mark: Yeah, what are some common areas that you see people running into with a lack of forecasting; just kind of sticking their finger up in the air and feeling where the wind blowing today as they're growing maybe a rapidly growing business. You already mentioned one, hiring too fast and bringing on too much support staff maybe anticipating more growth in the future. What are some other things that proper forecasting might be able to protect you from? Ben: I think when you create that first financial forecast and you have been forecasting it really exposes areas in your business that are kind of weak data-wise. The number one thing is like booking; tracking your monthly bookings whether that's MRR or ARR basis you need to know when new lows are coming in or new customers are coming in any expansion business churn downgrades. So that sometimes exposes that tracking. You're going to be kind of revenue forecast together. It all starts with your booking patterns. So that's one thing. And then it's just basic stuff. What's your current MRR? What are your current customer accounts? How many paying customers do you have so you can put again that revenue forecast together and then it's just understanding where you spend. You know one big thing that I see with SaaS firms is that they're coding all their expenses to one big bucket. And I think once you reach say a million or two ARR you really have to have more sophistication in your financial forecast than you're coding expenses to buy an apartment because without that you really can't create any SAAS metrics from that. So you really need clarity around your expenses as well to see that quite a bit. Mark: Yeah and so much of this when I give presentations at a conference and I get to the part where I'm talking about keeping good clean accurate verifiable books I get the sense sometimes that it gets glossed over. And I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs who say yeah I know my books are important but then when you find out are they actually managing them well we found out that they aren't and because it becomes sort of an afterthought to it. But what you said there at the end I think is so clear. Once you start having good numbers brought in to the business and you're starting to analyze these numbers it brings clarity to the business as well and being able to identify maybe the risks that are actually present in your company that you aren't seeing because you're not looking at the data. A lot of what you're saying here about forecasting, of course, requires keeping track of the numbers in the right way and you need to start somewhere. For somebody that's maybe at the smaller end of the spectrum in a SaaS operation, say sub one million dollars in revenue what sort of recommendations do you have to make sure that the data that they're getting is A. getting input correctly and categorized correctly and B. do you have any recommended software any recommended systems that you would start out with? Ben: Yeah I wrote a post because that was a question I was getting a lot on what SaaS accounting software can you recommend. And of course, when I speak with founders 9 out of 10 times their financials are in QuickBooks . So that's kind of a ubiquitous accounting system out there. And I've seen all sorts P&Ls but really it's good organization to your expense categories. Not having too many. Sometimes you see a QuickBooks P&L and it's 50 expense categories and you've got $5 posted in February and 10 the next month; just too much detail on that where a SaaS company is really 70 to 80% employee wages, benefits, taxes, etcetera. So that's the big thing is getting to know your wages classify them correctly; encoded by department. Then it comes down to travel, rent, commissions, so they're big expense categories that are common within SaaS, advertising, that you want to see those coded and classified correctly and kept track of each month so you're not getting behind and have very lumpy financials. So that would be the big thing is just to clearly categorize P&L by expense category and then obviously the other one is just not applying proper reverec which you can't blame SaaS founders that saved some 1 million but they're not playing proper reverec to their revenue. But eventually, you will need that in order to calculate again good metrics, good gross margin and so forth. Mark: Can you explain that last part a little bit more? Ben: Yeah, about the reverec? Mark: Yes. Ben: So often rates with an MRR business it's not as pronounced where you invoice monthly and recognize monthly but with annual contracts say quarterly, semiannual, annual, multi-year contracts you see a lot of SaaS companies posting that revenue right to their P&L. So, for example, a $12,000 annual contract that should be advertised and recognized over twelve months. They're posting twelve thousand in just one month. You'll see very lumpy revenue that it could be 50 or 100,000 in one month and it's $1,000 a month the next month and I've even seen negative in some months. And with that, you really cannot manage your SaaS business without a proper reverec and that could be finding a SaaS accounter bookkeeper who is familiar with the SaaS business model. But without that, you don't know your gross margins at all. You really don't know what's going on with your business kind of on a good steady run-rate basis. So again under a million, I get it. A million and two and scaling you definitely have to get to that point. Mark: Yeah. And so in our world again we've talked about this a lot on this podcast and pretty much every chance I get. And it's that simple difference between accrual and cash basis counting, right? Instead of saying oh I just got $12,000 in on an annual contract saying well I have an annual contract which means I need to service this client for the full 12 months and that equates out to $1,000 a month which I'm earning as I go along with this contract. It's kind of a foreign concept to a lot of people. But again the importance here is not treating the P&L like a statement of cash flows only and treat it again as a profit and loss statement. I would imagine Ben, this is something I didn't see on your site but I'm sure you've covered because your site is extremely comprehensive, it would make sense at that point to look at your financial statements and understand the balance sheet is going to be important in here as well. What role do you see and let me see if I can back up; I'm kind of all over the place right now but I'll ask this in a very basic way. I know a lot of people are kind of scared or mystified by the balance sheet. How much emphasis do you think people should put on actually getting familiar with the statement like that or do you think it's more important to look at some of the other metrics instead and focus on those? Ben: Yeah I think say as a founder-owner you do need to understand the balance sheet to some extent because the SaaS balance sheet is a little different than others. One obviously is deferred revenue, so in the example, we talked about when you invoice that 12k it's actually posted at the balance sheet as deferred revenue; as a liability, because you have an obligation now to say perform or to service that customer. The second thing with the new reverec standards you now have to capitalize the contract costs that arise when signing contracts with customers, for example, enabling commissions now that becomes an asset on your balance sheet. So that's the second area that's different with SaaS and that's actually new and then, of course, capitalizing software development. You can also capitalize software development once it reaches technological feasibility. And again that's another asset on your balance sheet. Other than that SaaS balance sheets are pretty straightforward but if you're applying the proper accounting you probably will see; you definitely should see deferred revenue and probably capitalized commissions. Mark: Yeah I can kind of hear the collective groan from people listening thinking well I thought we're going to be talking about SaaS metrics here and here we are back in the old accounting stuff but this stuff plays together, right? I mean when we go into some of the other more advanced metrics that you're talking about it depends on having those books done correctly so that you can pull out the right metrics and the right ratios that you're looking for. But let's get into some of those other metrics and just kind of a very basic question here, what do you consider especially forward for companies that 1 million maybe 5 million 10 million and then above as we kind of work up the strata here, what sort of metrics would you generally say are really important for an owner or potentially an acquirer to really dial in on a SaaS business? Ben: Yeah I think once you're past that early stage where you really have to manage your cash flow I mean it's going to be your go-to-market, sales, and marketing efficiency metrics and that's something I'm constantly looking at. So it's really all; it becomes a lot about the go-to-market efficiency. One are your inbound or outbound sales engine and marketing engines and then one metric that's a favorite of mine is cost of ARR, cost of MRR where you're looking at your ARR and MRR bookings and comparing that against your sales and marketing expense to see how much it costs you to acquire one that new dollar or ARR or MRR; that's a big one. And there's a great survey out there, a SaaS survey put out by KeyBank each year that provides those private company metrics so you can compare how you're doing against other SaaS companies who put data into that survey. So it's a great benchmarking tool. But again there are a lot of sales and marketing efficiency metrics that yeah as you're scaling, how efficient are you, how much cash is going to be required to hit your booking plan, and then really just that balance; it comes down to that balance between bookings and sales marketing. Mark: Yeah that's great. Let's talk employees it seems to be one of the costs that seems to kind of spiral out of control with SaaS companies on occasion right? The cost of supporting the clients can be higher and higher. You have something on the blog which I'd just kind of chanced upon which you came up with called the Rose Metric. Can you explain that a little bit? Ben: Yes sure. Again it kind of gets back to the concept that really a SaaS company or any software company is all about the staff; the employees because that's the major expense or as I call merits that investment in the business around your staff. And you see that revenue graph that you metric out there is kind of a general gauge around efficiency which I think is just too high level; too generic. So I want to look at really it's so important that your investing employees, that employees are happy because they are creating that software company; they're creating the product. And really comparing how efficient are we in headcount wages versus the bookings coming in. So it gets you kind of a balance of as we scale what resources do we need to support our bookings plan or rounding plan and just see how efficient we are in acquiring new MRR or ARR against our kind of employee headcount or employee wages. Mark: Yeah it's an interesting piece and again I'd recommend people take a look at the blog and kind of dig into some of these employee metrics. It's one that we don't see as much in our world and I think it's an interesting one to take a look at. From a merger and acquisition standpoint if you're a buyer coming into a business and trying to evaluate it where are you going to begin looking at a company's books? What sort of numbers are you going to be looking at in trying to calculate within that first day as you're trying to see is this a good opportunity and a healthy company? Ben: Yeah obviously the first thing you're going to look at is just are they good books are you inaudible[00:19:12.5] accounting so they're good financial statements. And then after that, it's really understanding the health of the recurring revenue because a lot of valuations are based on almost full of ARR or MRR and then also EBIDTA. So really when I look at it you know it's really looking into that recurring revenue; so the bookings data, what's your gross dollar retention, net revenue retention, how many logos are you losing per month, how many dollars are you losing per month, and churn and dock rates. And then of course if you've got multiple products it's understanding all of those metrics by the product lines. Because that's what you're really buying is the recurring revenue stream and of course any profitability or lack of profitability that goes along with that recurring revenue stream in the form of EBIDTA. So those are the same first things that I dive into is really understanding the revenue streams and then really the business model; what does it take to support that recurring revenue stream? Do you have tech support? Do you have CSMs? What's needed support that revenue? And then, of course, another big thing is to go to market engine; understanding sales and marketing, how they're acquiring customers, how efficient they are, and then of course looking into GNA, RND, the product roadmap etcetera. Mark: Sure absolutely. As far as dealing with a company with weak books like of we're evaluating a company that maybe has this lumpy revenue because they're recording everything on a cash basis. Are there ways that you can suggest that would not involve a whole deconstruction of books but maybe to be able to evaluate a business that has weaker books or weaker data tracking practices? Ben: Yeah if you really can rely on the financials for the revenue stream then you have to really build a backup through their bookings data or their invoicing data. So getting say a couple years of invoicing history of their subscriptions; so dollar amounts, start and end dates, it helps if you knew is this a new logo expansion etcetera so that you can reconstruct what the revenue stream should look like and then get back into you know what kind of expansion are you seeing, churn are they seeing so you can build out that revenue stream if it's not; if they're not [inaudible 00:21:30.3] to the financial statements. Mark: Sure. What would be some warning signs that you would look for an acquisition? Obviously, you said you would really look at the health of the recurring revenue. How trustworthy is it? Also the go-to-market cost as well. What are some things that would be just kind of a deal-breaker for you if you were evaluating a business? Ben: I mean a couple of things would be looking at again I think it's going to be around churn and payback periods. So payback periods are extremely important. So how fast are you paying back those upfront customer acquisition costs. So one looking at their cash balance, of course, are they trying to [inaudible 00:22:10.5] fund working capital through lines of credit or debt that their business model isn't quite working for some reason or the payback period is too long or they have just too much cash tied up in check. And then, of course, new logo acquisition, do they have the go-to-market model proofed out or product-market fit and then again just is churn under control, can they acquire customers but then can they retain them over time. So again those are some of the things that if you see warning flags; you might see some warning flags there that the metrics just as a whole don't add up together. Mark: Right. You mentioned payback periods. This is something that I've ran into a number of times where I see somebody pretty plainly put out there hey my LTV is this my CSC is this so look I'm going to acquire the customer for 80 bucks the lifetime value is $400 and you're going to make a great return on your investment on that. But when you dig into it a little bit deeper you find out that if you take like an 80% cohort, if you're taking a look at the majority of customers the lifetime value is much lower. There are a couple of unicorns in there that are pulling in this really high value. What are some ways that you can recommend dissecting this when you get this kind of flat up numbers of my lifetime value is X and my cost of acquisition is Y so, therefore, you're going to make that killing on this business. How can you sort of dissect that and actually get some better insights there? Ben: Yeah especially with LTV because that can be so sensitive to the denominator or what churn number you're using as the dominator. So you really have to understand what inputs they're putting themselves because that lifetime value can be all over the place. So again you mentioned cohort analysis, are they taking the cohorts, are they using aggregate churn or are you looking at really with check and payback periods you should be looking at it's really a point in time like the cohort analysis that what's the most recent cohorts coming in and the paybacks on those and also lifetime churn from the cohorts say from the past 12 months. So you really have to I think look at the details on the numbers that are building up into those formulas to really prove out what they're saying that they can really claim great numbers. Mark: Yeah, it's one of the reasons that LTV to me I'm not a big fan of that metric on its own I mean it's interesting but I think it's just kind of a live number way. It doesn't color a whole lot when you're looking at it by itself, right? It can really take you to a lot of different factors. Ben: Yeah and I definitely calculate LTV it's interesting because I think SaaS metrics in isolation don't mean much. You kind of have to look at the big picture obviously it's LTV to check but also looking at cost of ARR payback periods. So maybe it's one data point but it's not telling the whole story. So I do look at LTV but again I think say cost of ARR or the payback on that is a much easier way to understand. And LTV I still think is kind of a ballpark because it's always changing and it's such a sensitive calculation that it's not the number to just look at alone. Mark: Yeah. A question I get all the time from people and it's really basic in your world so I apologize for even asking this but people ask me all the time well how am I supposed to calculate my lifetime value, how am I supposed to calculate my churn when I have people that are still; that have been with me from day one? And these numbers sometimes can be difficult to calculate because of that or even people that are dropping off but then coming back on and then dropping off again and then coming back on. Ben: Yeah. I hear that a lot too. Yeah especially if you're a couple of years in you really don't know your lifetime value yet. Again it's just a formula; it's a calculation so it's a ballpark but you don't really know true LTV yet if you've just been around a couple of months or a couple of years. And then the whole dropping off dropping on back on that's where it just becomes almost company-specific that you really just have to define internally what does a new customer mean, when does it really mean that they churn so that everyone within the company understands that. And if you're in any sort of M&A then that's clearly; that you're transparent with how you're actually tracking those stats. Mark: Yeah. And I think that part right there that point is probably the key that I think is so important especially from an acquisition standpoint. If you're looking to acquire a SaaS company and you're just looking at the metrics on the surface how does that seller define those metrics within their own company and why did they set up those rules because with multi churn you can look at that in a number of different ways. You can calculate that number using different approaches the same way with LTV numbers you can use different approaches and get different results. So why did you choose a certain method; why did you choose a certain approach to this? And that's the color I think from an acquisition standpoint that starts to get really important when you're looking at any of these metrics is understanding the why behind what data is being presented and then the rules and applying a sanity test to it. Are these people just giving numbers because that's what they're supposed to pick or are they actually looking at these and using these metrics within their company, yeah just a really good point on your side as far as understanding the metrics and where they're coming from? Moving beyond that cost of acquisition, moving beyond the lifetime value numbers and you've mentioned a few times the going to market costs as well, what are some health levels for the sustainability of ARR or MRR on a SaaS business. Ben: You mean as kind of as far as the balance between recurring revenue and sales marketing expense? Mark: Yes. Ben: Yeah, so healthy levels, the things that I look at and this is probably more mid-market enterprise but usually if you can acquire bookings for $1 of a new ARR for a dollar of sales market expense that's pretty good. So again there are some surveys out there that kind of give you some benchmarks and that's kind of you can say in whole new logo and expansions of course expansion in ourselves should be a lot cheaper than acquisition, maybe that's 30 to 50 cents of sales and marketing expense acquire one net new dollar of ARR. So certainly it's just that you look in and if it's higher you just need to understand from that business why it's taking longer and what's the story behind go to market. Is that a longer sales cycle that's impacting the [inaudible 00:28:48.6] so just different things to really understand their business model. Mark: That's great. I'm going to just take a quick break from some of that heavy metric discussion here because we're throwing around a lot of acronyms right now. How did you get your start in this rollout? You said that you had experience in the airplane industry and then also in the software industry. How did you get to be so passionate about this and kind of digging in as deep as you do? Ben: Yeah well I guess one that you really loved forecasting and financial forecasting though in Excel models and you kind of build-up that tool kit over time and just really enjoy it really understanding the economics of businesses and especially software is so interesting and yeah I did start in the airlines which is also kind of metric intensive and very financially disciplined and I kind of applied that to the SaaS areas. So I just noticed out there a lot of resources on SaaS but it didn't quite I felt go far enough or really just give you the whole story and the template that they were using it kind explained it but then you might have to go do an hour or two of work to recreate what that person did. And so I said; I thought you could be a little different by just providing the exact models, the templates that I'm using and hopefully the bits and pieces of those would be applicable to some people in SaaS that they could incorporate into their business and I received great feedback from readers, subscribers downloading templates that it's helped them out a lot, founders that are trying to do their first forecast. So I just wanted that kind of transparent value exchange out there and it's just really from my kind of on the job experience as a SaaS CFO and just things I encounter every day that are pain points for me that could be pain points for others and just help them out with maybe something with a template that I've used to solve some of those problems. Mark: Yeah you have all these comments on the site from people who have written into about the resources and I love the one here that says great resources that save a lot of time and brain damage to replicate. It's very true. Again there's a really good stuff on here. You brought up forecasting again so I'm going to start to bring this full circle here back to forecasting because we talked about that and it's a topic that I'm personally very interested in as well right now. You have a whole page here on the cash runway model. Can you explain that at a high level and maybe we can get into it a little bit? Ben: Yeah definitely because I have my financial plan out there that I live in Excel every day that I kind of take it for granted that other people can also open up Excel or just dive right in and for a lot of people it's still a little too advanced so with kind of that you could say advanced side of financial planning model. So I tried to create something very basic and it is really inspired by a founder I talked to who said that he got some funding just with a super basic cash forecast. So I thought well how could I take that and just make it super simple say for founders and non-excel people to just start inputting even it really gets to their cash invoicing. So they really could forecast their cash balance and how long that balance is going to last. If they funded it and then they're looking for investments that they could say hey here's my cash invoicing coming up, here's my headcount, here are some other metrics; that major expenses and then just forecast their cash balance in one tab. So that was the genesis of it just trying to really boil down to really something basic that founders and again non-excel people could hopefully use right away. Mark: Yeah. And you have this template available on the site. And you didn't actually answer it's kind of the question I was going to lead into and that is how does somebody get started with forecasting if they don't have the resources for a CFO like yourself what are some basic models that they can put together to start forecasting their cash flow? Ben: Yeah, definitely. I think really it's understanding their invoicing patterns; so what is your cash coming in whether that's funding or just the invoices you're sending out to your customers or their credit card payments they're making online line through your site. So that's really the first step. It's just that cash in. And then it's going to be headcount. Again headcounts the majority of expense for SaaS company so really and I'm quite informal as to how do we easily calculate and forecast that expense. So whether you've got one person 850 cut that into model, forecast that expense out. So the second thing again is headcount. And then any other major expenses, maybe it's rent, maybe it's tradeshow, advertisements, so it's kind of that 80-20 rule start with those big expenses; start with the big invoices as a place to start to put together kind of a basic forecast. Mark: Right then as with all things you can refine that as you go along and improve it and make it more accurate and you can look back to see how accurate was our forecasting and get the insights that you need from there and be able to really plan out what's going on or if you're looking for funding obviously very useful for that as well. This has been really interesting and maybe a little bit of a scattered conversation because I want to talk about everything at once. That's my downfall. I've never really claimed to be the greatest podcast host in the world but there is just so much here to be able to discuss. We are up against the clock at this point though and so I want to give you the chance to kind of round it out and with what you do you obviously have a passion for a lot of this in you being able to help out a lot of people. What are some of the common problems or common questions that you get at the blog and what would you say to SaaS founders currently operating a business right now or those that might be looking to get into this through acquisition? Ben: Yeah I mean the kind of questions or problems that I see really one is just how do you calculate this stuff, how do you calculate these metrics, what are the inputs? And that really comes back to just a nice clean P&L that you take the time; make that investment through your bookkeeper or accountant to really set up a well-organized P&L because that's where all the metrics emanate from. And if you don't have that it's going to be really hard to calculate the metrics and really have that financial transparency to manage your business. So really again it starts with what's your SaaS P&L and I try post on there on my site kind of walking through from bookings down to income; what the major components of the SaaS P&L are and again it's getting good organization and good fundamentals there and then you can build upon it then you can start forecasting then you can calculate metrics. So again it starts with I think a nicely organized SaaS P&L. Mark: You know I had Babak Azad who was with Beach Body; he grew that company into a billion-dollar company and he was talking a lot about the metrics that they use there and I asked him a similar question about how do you get started; how can you start tracking this and his response was just what yours is and that is just start; you just have to start with it right. And your advice to start with a P&L and having that set up correctly. It's what we've been preaching here at Quiet Light Brokerage for a very, very long time. Get those books in order. You want to have those books in order. It doesn't matter if you want to sell or not. As a business owner having good financial records it's irreplaceable. Once you get it you will be so happy that you've had it. But it starts with how you're inputting it. I've run into bookkeepers; maybe you have as well but I run into bookkeepers especially when somebody hires them remotely who kind of don't want to do an accrual basis books because they consider it to be more difficult but it's the proper way to do it and as you said all the metrics derive from there. Alright, one last time Ben where can people find you? What's the best way to contact you? Ben: Sure you can contact me through my site. It's the SaaSCFO.com and then actually later this month I'm launching the SaaS Academy.com. It's an online digital course for SaaS metrics and more so that's coming out soon as well. But definitely my blog you can contact me through to the site. Mark: That's fantastic. Thanks so much for coming on. I hope to have you on in the future. In the future, I'll choose one topic and I'll stick on that for the entire topic but thank you so much for this really good overview episode. I really appreciate it. Ben: Alright thanks, Mark. Thanks for having me.     Links and Resources: Ben's Blog The SaaS CFO Ben's Blog post: The ROSE Metric Ben's Software Recommendations David Newell SaaS Webinar

Ben Sessions joins Kelly Street this week to discuss all things Technical SEO, Local SEO, and Facebook Advertising.  Ben (The Sessions Law Firm) is an Atlanta-based Criminal Defense attorney who truly enjoys learning and doing great online marketing for his law firm and sees results in clients & cases.  What is Ben doing for his marketing?  Multiple offices; Ben has 3 offices and considers how his local search will be affected by the office location. He avoids coworking spaces for this reason but we do talk about ways to overcome this. Technical SEO; This is looking at the backend of your site, instead of focusing on the most beautiful website.  Utilize link tracking, like Moz, SEMRush, Ahrefs. This will help you keep track of your links online. Learn SEO basics like title tags, and more. This won't take a lot of time and will help you in the long run. Choose your website host carefully. Ben chose a proprietary platform, which he now regrets because he feels locked in and isn't getting as much SEO benefit out of his website Memberships = Links. For bar associations or any other membership site, capture those links to your profile. This may be the biggest benefit to your membership.  Pay attention to your analytics. Head over to your Google Analytics and Google Webmaster Tools accounts, check them regularly and earn the basics for both of these. Google My Business! We talk a lot about this but GMB is a great, easy, and free tool that every law firm can easily maximize.  Ben, when it comes to marketing changes & updates: "Do not let that uncertainty make you become stationary... you have to engage in this [marketing]." Referrals myth-busting! Ben supposes that referrals are not the main stream of legal clients in 2019. Make videos. Ben suggests starting on YouTube before posting to social media because you will most likely not get very much traffic but you will get experience. Also- don't just publish on YouTube. One key takeaway here- experiment!  Comments are actually good for your engagement metrics, so don't be afraid of them, even the negative ones! Reviews- Ben doesn't pay for reviews but he does pay attention to anywhere he gets them.  Ben "You may not have time to pay attention to reviews now but somewhere down the line, you will need to and it might be too late." Concerned about a potential client? See if they're leaving negative reviews online for other businesses and beware, especially if you are a lower volume law firm.  Paid Social & PPC - Ben has not had great luck managing his own PPC in the past but has found great success with paid Facebook in the short while he has used this method. Ben suggests posting videos and promoting them for engagement. Use call tracking and UTM codes to track your marketing efforts! Marketing is not set it and forget it!

Ben Brown has a coaching business that helps highly driven men improve their energy and body composition and help them create a balance between work and home life. Ben is also the owner of Complete Essentials, an essential amino acid product which was born out of his own health issues. Ben talks to your host Blake Bowman about the connection between nutrition, lifestyle, and symptoms.   Episode Highlights: How Ben discovered what could heal his gastrointestinal inflammation naturally. The primary area of Ben’s business is nutrition coaching. H. Pilori is the bacteria that causes stomach ulcers and a high percentage of people have it. The lining of the gut can be deteriorated through stress, food quality, and more. The process Ben goes through to help people define their optimal diet. The most impactful thing coaches can do is to help people be more in tune with their body. Why eating ancestrally makes a lot of sense and is a good jumping off point. Eating seasonally and locally is another great way to start. Why certain diets give your gut time to regenerate and repair. There’s no one right way to eat, we have to understand biochemical individuality. If you’re serious about taking control of your health then you’ll have to consider big life changes. How to use things like hydrochloric acid effectively without becoming dependant on them. If you’re just starting out, you need digestive support. The natural things people can do to improve their digestive enzymes: Slow down and chew your food. Drink a lot of water, but not while you’re eating. There’s a reason our stomach is such an acidic environment and it should be that way. Ben’s thoughts on digestive bitters and bitter herbs. The role of ox bile in your health after having your gall bladder removed. About Ben’s product Complete Essentials and why it’s an all-in-one workout product. The body can function without carbohydrates but it cannot function for any period of time without essential amino acids. The best course of action is to be getting enough protein in throughout the day through real food. Many supplements are in pill form, but that’s not very conducive to workouts. When you take the Complete Essentials powder it’s instantly absorbed into the bloodstream. With essential amino acids, even people who have compromised digestion can benefit. Why it’s easier to gain fat as you get older. Essential amino acids provide mineral support without any caffeine or artificial sweeteners.   3 Key Points: Gut health and optimal digestion should be the primary focus when there is poor health. Eating ancestrally, seasonally, and locally can be the best way to start figuring out what diet works best with your body. Alkaline water is harmful to your production of hydrochloric acid, if you’re drinking it you need to stop.   Tweetable Quotes: “You aren’t what you eat, you are what you digest and assimilate.” -Blake “Most of the general population has compromised gut integrity.” -Ben “You have to go through trial and error to figure out what works best for you.” -Ben “Everything we do on a daily basis lends itself to screwing up our digestion.” -Ben “There’s a reason our stomach is such an acidic environment and it should be that way.” -Ben “The body can function without carbohydrates but it cannot function for any period of time without essential amino acids.” -Ben   Resources Mentioned: GuerrillaZen.com Get Complete Essentials at BSLNutritionshop.com

The Book of Genesis describes the creation of the earth in 7 days.  Can that be interpreted through a scientific viewpoint?  Ben Spackman will answer that question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP0-FF_30FA Ben:   So Genesis 1 is supposed to be set against this contextual background that the Israelites knew because they were living through it. Once you remove that background, fast forward 2,500 years, generate all kinds of questions about the age of the earth in Darwin and evolution and things like that--the questions we are asking Genesis 1 to answer are not within its scope whatsoever. The cosmology we find there is an ancient cosmology that God used and adapted to teach these other things that were far, far more impressive and important to them. So, in some ways we are deeply misreading Genesis when we read it through a scientific lens, whether that is saying it matches science and young-earth creationist way or it's really talking about like solar system formation and the long period. Both of those are deep misreadings regardless of the way you try to reconcile them. We also talk about various theories about the creation of man. Ben: You go back to 1656 and you've got a guy named Isaac La Peyrère who is the one who says Genesis is about the Jewish people and non-Jewish people existed before Adam. This is 1656. He's not talking about fossils. He's not talking about evolution. He's just trying to figure out how do we make sense of where all these different groups of people all over the world come from? GT:  Where do Chinese and blacks and Native Americans come from? Ben:  Yeah, all this stuff. That idea has been given the term polygenism that is--you're generated from multiple places as opposed to monogenism, that is Adam and Eve, and everyone comes from this one prototypical couple. Polygenism solved certain problems, it created others. So in the 1800's, you start seeing science settling into distinct fields and it is professionalizing. You also start seeing what is called scientific racism. That is, you have people who are actual scientists as we would think of them, start thinking scientifically about what accounts for different races and polygenism meant that if these people were created by God, but those people evolved, well then maybe those people aren't fully human, and we can totally justified treating them as slaves. It led to scientific racism. I don't know how much it played into the German stuff in the 1930's. That's, that's something that is often overplayed by young-earth creationists that Darwin leads directly to the Holocaust and Nazis. He mentions another theory too. Ben:   ...at first it was called the Babylonian Genesis, the Babylonian creation account. The idea that they were really concerned about, "Where did matter come from, how did it get created?" led to transposing our view of Genesis as a creation account focused on materiality, onto the Babylonian creation account, focused on materiality. But more study of that led to understanding that it wasn't really concerned with creation per se at all. You can see this in the titles of papers analyzing it over the last hundred years. Today, people don't call it the Babylonian creation account or the Babylonian Genesis. Rather, it's become known as the, oh gosh, I'm blanking. There's a young god in it who becomes the king of the gods name Marduk. The whole thing from beginning to end is about how Marduk becomes king. It's the elevation of Marduk. It's the story of Marduk's rise to power. The creation stuff in it is a very subsequent to that. It's part of the story. It's not the thrust of the story, it's not even a secondary aspect of the story. It's just a necessary part of the story to tell, to explain and justify how Marduk came to power. Check out our conversation… When we try to read science into Genesis, Ben Spackman says that is misreading Genesis. Check out our previous conversations with Ben!

Overcast Link.  My Guest this week is Mason Peck, Professor of Aerospace and Systems engineering at Cornell University and former Chief Technologist at NASA. Previously Mason was a was a Principal Fellow at Honeywell Aerospace and has an extremely colorful history we get into during the podcast. The topic of this conversation is how NASA works, alternatives to the current innovation ecosystem - like crowdsourcing and philanthropy, and also the interplay between government, academia, and private industry. Key Takeaways You can have an organization full of smart motivated people that doesn't produce great results if all the incentives are set up to avoid risk. There's been a shift in where different parts of the innovation pipeline happen. More has shifted universities and startups from larger companies and the government but the systems of support haven't caught up. Taking a portfolio approach to technology and innovation is a powerful concept that we don't think about enough. Links Mason’s Lab (Space System Design Studio) Website Mason on Twitter (@spacecraftlab) The Office of the Chief Technologist at NASA NIAC (NASA Innovative Advanced Concepts Directorate) Breakthrough Starshot Mars One Transcript   Intro   [00:00:00] This podcast I talk to Mason Peck about NASA alternatives to the current Innovation ecosystem like crowdsourcing and philanthropy and also the interplay between government Academia and Private Industry. Officially Mason is a professor of Aerospace and systems engineering at Cornell University, but I think of him as Cornell space exploration guy. He's done research on everything from doing construction in space using superconductors to making spacecraft that can fit in the palm of your hand and cost cents instead of millions of dollars from 2011 to 2013. He served as NASA's Chief technologist. Don't worry. We'll get into what that means in the podcast before becoming a professor.   What is a Chief Technologist   Ben: You spent several years as the chief technologist at Nasa. Can you explain for us what the chief technologist at Nasa actually does. I think that it's a usual role that many people have not heard of. Mason: Sure, NASA's [00:01:00] Chief technologist sets strategy and priorities for NASA's. Let's call them technology Investments. It's helpful to think of it in investment context because it really is that you know, what you're doing is spending money taxpayer money. You want to be a responsible Steward of that money. You're spending that money on. Something like a bet that you hope will pay off in the future. So taking a portfolio approach that problem probably makes sense. At least it made sense to me. I was the chief technologist for NASA for the over two years started in the end of 2011 and continued to little bit into 2014, but mostly it was the two years 2012-2013. And I may just offer it was a wonderful time to be doing that difficult from the standpoint of the budget. There are a lot of challenges at that time budgetarily, but good from the standpoint of lots of great support from the White House the office of Science and Technology policy when I was there was particularly aggressive and committed and [00:02:00] passionate about doing what they thought was the best for the nation and the just the degree of energy and expertise some of those people made it a wonderful ecosystem to work in.   How long term were bets?   Ben: Awesome, and going off of that portfolio approach with the bats.  how long term were those bets? Like what was the the time scale on them? Mason: In the portfolio approach that we tried to? Take some of those bets were the long game. I suppose, you know, 20 years out. There was a program known as NIAC Nayak the NASA Innovative advanced concepts program, which placed bets on to keep using this metaphor. Ideas that probably would pay off in a couple of decades. And by the way, that seems like a hopelessly long time but for spacecraft that's maybe a generation of spacecraft. In fact spacecraft Generations in technological sense almost mirrors the human Generations, if you think of a human generation being 20 years, you could [00:03:00] probably look across the history of space technology. In spot these Rafi 20-year slices where things seem to happen. So some of the investors are definitely 20 years plus others, whereas near term as possible, but it's not just the the duration of time that is how long it would take for these Investments to pay off. It was also about the type of investment that is the ways in which technology was done.   Different types of tech investment   So, If I can go on about that briefly the me, please you say that it's one thing to as one thing to solicit ideas from the traditional offers of technology or DARPA calls the performers, you know, you go to a Lockheed Martin or university what I've Cornell University of just for one example, you go to university and you ask for a certain result and then they can probably deliver that kind of result. There's all the non-traditional offers. For example, when the NASA we would start these challenges or competitions. [00:04:00] The idea was to bring in non-traditional providers people who normally wouldn't have bothered or even have been considered qualified to solve a NASA problem, but through a challenge like a coding challenge a hackathon or maybe a more substantial dollar amount. Prize offered a million dollars for electric aircraft or something through that mechanism you bringing different kinds of people to solve the problem and that's not only the other that's not the only other dimension. Another dimension is whether the problem you're solving is something that is a known problem or something you feel like if you build it they will come. Either that freezes the death to death to investment, right if you say something like I've got this great idea but no one's asking for a right now, but trust me if we build it somebody it will buy it that is not what a venture capitalist for example wants to hear right? However. It is a distinct type of futurism, right?   Mission Pull vs Mission Push   There's what we call pull and push Mission pull refers to [00:05:00] when we have a mission that NASA let's say returning samples from the surface of Mars or sending humans to a distant star. I mean, these are not necessarily necessary. What's this if they are then? The Jews demand certain technological solutions certain Innovations, or if you come up with idea that no one's asking for is their value in that and I'll give you the example of a say spacecraft that are the size of your fingernail right now. You probably know been that this is a topic we were working out of Cornell. I guarantee you no one's asking for that. I can prove that by virtue of how many proposals have been turned down. The basic fact is there are uses for this now. Maybe there aren't enough that are compelling and I'll accept that but the reason no one's asking is because no one knows it can exist and that's not a reason to say no, so. Again, think of the mission pull versus what we call technology push direction if we can come up with a solution that people maybe could use [00:06:00] a little value in working on that think of the dimension. As I said before of different kinds of offers. What are the sources for technology and then of course, there's the timeframe Dimension. So there's at least three dimensions that you might think of for the. Portfolio of Technology Investments That least we took it to kind of NASA and that maybe helps other environments to   Non-traditional vs Traditional Offers   Ben: yeah,  are there some good examples of  non-traditional offers really succeeding where the traditional offers did not. Mason: Yes, two ways to answer that one is for some problems. They are simply not profitable for a lot of companies even as an example. I major company might spend a hundred thousand to maybe over a billion dollars, maybe multiple millions of dollars. Just writing the proposal to a government agency do some work and it's not at all an exaggeration. You know, that's really not the [00:07:00] case. Where a small mom-and-pop company. But for larger companies, I see a Honeywell or a Boeing or Lockheed or some other defense kind tractor, you know for sure they spend that kind of money. So the and that's the total money. They spend let alone The Profit they might get in that which is maybe on the order of 10% or something. So you got to really want. To do this work to invest the money for a proposal into it and something at the scale of I mentioned Nayak before right the NASA innovated the best huh something that small it's simply not worth large company writing a proposal that they're not going to get there not even get the cost of proposal back probably now there may be other reasons, but let's let's give me those for a second. Let's think about the the other way of answering that question. What am I people who just want to work with NASA? There are people out there that are passionate. About what NASA doesn't and you do you'll be hard pressed by the way to find other government agencies and probably even other businesses with the brand loyalty if you like or their reputation that in Mass it has yeah, so I'll [00:08:00] give you the example of Tom ditto titl was his last name. He's got had a couple of Nyack Awards over the years. The first one was I think in 2005 ish? He had this brilliant idea for a new kind of spectrometer. And for your I know you probably know but not everyone knows this spectrometer is a device that looks at it a light and finds out what colors it is. And I'm looking at the Spectrum of a let's say reflected light off of a rock or something will tell you about its chemical may make up so spectrometers the useful thing for astronomy. Well, Tom didn't came up with the idea of using diffraction grating. It's that that colorful rainbow mirror looking stuff. There was all the rage in the 1970s. So but he had a way of using that to make a spectrometer and he would have been a very long spectrometer. In fact, maybe even on the surface of the Moon a super long kilometers long spectrometer arguably a crazy idea, but absolutely brilliant and solve the problem, but NASA didn't even know it needed to solve. Once against problem [00:09:00] that no Lockheed would propose but a Tom ditto would so Tom just wanted to work on this and he had a passion for it. He solved the problem and that was a cool example, and there's others just like it's so in an environment where you have Innovation where people can. Contribute, I guess I'll stay out of the goodness of their heart or because I like the idea of the challenge or maybe even for relatively small price. You'll get different kinds of solutions and that's an interesting possibility.   What would you do to unlock grassroots innovators?   Ben: how would you encourage that even further? So  say you you control the entire United States government?  what would you do Beyond Nyack anything to sort of unlock those people? Mason: To clarify for your listeners. I have no plans to take over the government. Yes. I'm willing if someone like to offer me the job, but that's not my forte. Well, so again, I let me let me go back to the example of prizes and challenges. This is a big deal with in the Obama Administration. [00:10:00] They were faced with this awkward problem of having lots of great ideas and basically no money to work within a Congress that was not supportive. (Prizes and Challenges) So what do you do? Well, you open up these opportunities to the nation maybe even to the world. So if you can come up with an away with a way of articulating the value of contributing, you know again in a way that makes the public or maybe just a few individuals wants to help. Depend on that altruistic nature that some people have that's when we dissolve a problem because it doesn't work in all cases. So rather than just offering a challenge where if you do it you get a medal. What about offering a prize prize competitions are interesting because first of all the the organization that offers the price doesn't necessarily spend money until they get a result. For example, the the orteig prize remember this one. This was the one that encouraged transatlantic flight. Yes. So, you know that that's one way to go. A $20,000 prize and [00:11:00] then you win it and you pay off your mortgage there have been others. Like I birthed an said that building the gossamer Albatross was away from to pay off his mortgage. And so there are there are some folks who are motivated by the prospect of a prize and again from for the funders perspective from a funding perspective. You're not going to pay until and unless you can get the solution you want. So that's interesting the other interesting feature about crowdsourcing a solution like that is you might get. People applying to solve your problem and you get the best one out of a thousand compare that to a typical again since we're talking Aerospace a typical Aerospace Contracting opportunity. You'll probably get responses that say NASA would offer millions of dollars for a new rocket. You're going to get doesn't maybe responses to that of which a half dozen maybe will be credible and it's going to be The Usual Suspects. It'll be it'll be Boeing and Lockheed and orbital sciences and maybe a few others well. What if that one in a thousand Solutions the one you really want offering an [00:12:00] opportunity that solicits such a large number of potential inputs really allows you to pick that best one the again the 2 Sigma 3 Sigma Solution which is kind of exciting possibility. So that's another way to go.   How do you pull out good ideas when they take resources?     Ben: to Riff on  that how other good ways of. Judging a solution before it requires a large amount of investment. So with this Crown funny I can imagine that it would get a lot of people. With ideas and you'd be able to go through the ideas and if there's one that immediately stands out as better than the rest or  is very clearly feasible often with things. You don't actually know if it's a good idea until you've tested it and you poured some resources into it and people might not have those. So is there any trick to  pulling out those ideas? Mason: One interesting interesting fact [00:13:00] about prize competitions is pretty clearly. You have to pitch it at the right dollar amount, you know after ten bucks, you're not going to get in. This is really what you want a prize where the prize might be the say 20 billion dollars the investment necessary to. That twenty billion dollars might be so prohibitive that you're only going to get a few players and once again, probably the usual suspects right? For instance. Let's say that we offered twenty billion dollars for whoever first built at the hotel on the moon. Okay, it sounds like an interesting idea maybe but to develop that infrastructure that capability is going to cost billions begin with and and maybe someone will win the 20 billion dollar Enterprise, but I really need to get what you want. So first of all the the scale of the prize. Matters, but let me go back to this portfolio idea we were talking about before if you have the freedom to manage a portfolio of Technology investment your opportunity then is to think about those high-risk investments. Just the way you would have to say in your own eventual portfolio think about high risk Investments as a way to pick winners [00:14:00] you invest a little bit the high-risk stuff across the large board and maybe a few of them. But you have to be winners. Well, then maybe you go investible bit more in those and soon as saying the case of Nayak, right? And let's say that we like to Tom Dittos spectrometer so much that the $100,000 that he got for building this which is not peanuts by the way, but it's still small from Aerospace perspective that hundred thousand dollars a small investment. But in a subsequent phase maybe he gets ten times that amount of money maybe he starts a small company. I think he is company something like ditto tool and die company or something like this maybe ditto Tool company gets a factor of 10 or investment in the in a follow-on phase. In fact, maybe even a subsequent phase could be a hundred times as much. So as time goes on as the maturity of the technology increases as you continually refine the portfolio allowing the failed investment to just sort of Fall by the wayside. You can concentrate on those ones that are [00:15:00] successful which is first of all a reason why you have to invest in some high-risk stuff. You got to take some risks right and then second if you. And if you have a portfolio approach you have the opportunity to use statistics to your benefit. I can let's say if I'm NASA invest in a hundred a crazy ideas every year and if only one or two of them pan out, well, that's great those one or two. Probably something I really care about.   How do you incentivize innovation within NASA?   Ben:  that makes a lot of sense and  in that portfolio. So in a in excellent Financial portfolio, you measure success by how much money you get by your return. There's a number and that's you want to maximize that number that you're getting back NASA's portfolio doesn't quite fit into that. So, how do you how do you measure how well a portfolio is doing? How do you incentivize people? To within NASA to really push the best Innovations forward. [00:16:00] Mason: Yeah several things going on there. First of all, you got to take a look at the organization's culture. You have to take a look at how they respond to Innovation. My experience with NASA is that it's full of brilliant and committed people at the same time. There's a tendency for the younger folks to be very forward-looking and interestingly for the most senior leadership be fairly forward-looking somewhere in the middle. There's a like a lot of problem, but it would have a low spot would have us soft spot where people in more than elsewhere can be. (Risk aversion) Careerist that is the not so willing to take risks. They want to keep their jobs. They want to be seen as effective. And again taking on risks can be not looked upon well that in their opinion. So so that's tricky right here these different populations in any large organization and you got to come up with a way of communicating the value of innovation across the board, right? That's one of the challenges making this sort of thing work. Suppose a lot more that you can see about about culture and I [00:17:00] suppose every culture is a little different but one of those the hardest parts in making Innovation stick is to communicate to folks that it's a permanent solution what I found again using NASA's an example, and I've also work with other companies by the way for which this is true. There's a tendency to think that these technology investment initiatives or this Innovation is initiative is just the flavor of the day, you know, it's it's a it's our flash in the pan or whatever metaphor you like. It's a temporary State of Affairs. So there are people who are afraid if they start to go to heavy toward Innovation and man maybe quit their job of doing program management and study to become a radical innovator. That whatever leadership has been pushing that is going to disappear eventually and it'll go back to business as usual and then they'll be left without a job. Right? So there's risk seen in this process of taking an innovation because you not so sure how permanent is going to be. So, you know, how do you Embrace that problem as someone trying to effect change just [00:18:00] promising it's not going to go away probably won't convince folks. They've been around long enough. It's in your organization's happen. They've seen issues come and go how do you convince them? So I wish I had an answer to that other than to say that it's only through longevity of an innovation process that people really start to embrace it and what I'm talking about when I say longevity. I mean really on the order of five plus years you really would like to have almost a generation of folks grow up in an environment where that Innovation is taken to be the order of the day.   Strengths and Weaknesses of each sector   Ben:  something like that. I've I don't have an answer to but that I see consistently is that there are these these timescale mismatches where people's careers are sort of judged in maybe two to five year segments where if you nothing's happened in the past two to five years. People are like well, what are you what are you doing? And then the really the the Innovations take something like. You know seven to 10 years to to really mature so it's very [00:19:00] hard to align those incentives and I'm just always always looking for answers around that. I you mentioned that you've seen this at a bunch of different organizations  you've literally been in every every sector right you've been in Industry. You've been in Academia you've been in government. Do you have any sense of what role each of them should ideally occupy in an innovation ecosystem and what strengths and weaknesses each has. Mason:  That's a wonderful question and probably beyond my Ken but I will I will offer for those of your listeners and you as well who want to go back rewind a little bit to the World War II time frame thinking about this fellow named vannevar Bush and then you've probably encountered thanks to him and his Innovations we have what we have now where [00:20:00] universities take on what we call fundamental research which combines both basic and applied research and then come. The government take on the next step which is implementation in to say potentially demonstration or something operational system. This is at least the way it's shaking out maybe the original town with a bit different but that's kind of how it shakes it out and people are fond of pointing to this Gap or this where they call it the. This Chasm between the Innovation that happens in universities and then the need for near term profit making investments in companies or low-risk politically safe Investments of the level of the government. There's a gap in their right and how do you feel that Gap? There are organizations like DARPA the defense Advanced research projects agency that are meant to fill that Gap and their NASA. We try creating programs that would fill that Gap and not surprisingly. There are there are still problems with that. So. We think of universities think of companies think of government that are clearly different motivations that drive each one of these. [00:21:00] I wonder if there isn't a different motivation entirely that might be more Global more Universal at the moment. We don't have it if we were ever. Oh, I don't know set upon by an alien horde we might pull together as a as a nation as a world and in all contribute a little bit differently to the way things are going but at the moment without any obvious. I'm cataclysm on the horizon and some might argue about climate change for the say we don't all agree that there's a cataclysm on Horizon. We're in these silos. So universities we innovate in a certain way. We innovate at the level of again. I'll call it basic and applied research. The government innovated the level when it works. Well policy when it doesn't work. Well the government tries to solve its own problems using its own expertise really really in my opinion. They should be going outside for that expertise and businesses solve problems in a way that maximizes shareholder value probably in the relatively near term. These are all I mean perfectly successful ways of pulling on [00:22:00] Innovation, but they're not the same. And they do lead to very idiosyncratic Solutions. Again. The question is isn't there something more General and broader. What do you think?   What's the correct system?   Ben: I would have I think I mean, I definitely you're the one being interviewed but I think that there's you've completely identified that Gap and I think that in my mind there's what it should really be is. Sort of a pipeline and that looking at what needs to be done and who is best incentivised to do it. So for example, the. It's stuff where there's this very long long time Horizon uncertain outcomes sort of like big our research would come from universities with some light support from the government. But then as soon as that needed to be pulled together into something that required a lot of [00:23:00] coordination and a lot of money then perhaps the government or a company would come in depending on. What the real outcome would be but you know if I had a real and like the whole point of all of this is to try to figure out a real answer. I don't have a good one at the moment. (Shift in funding methods) Mason: Yes, happy birthday thinking about this other thing. I guess I could offer is the way we fund research in this country has as changed over the years there was a time and it might surprise some of your listeners to think about this there was a time when as a university researcher. You probably didn't write any Grant proposals or if you did it was one every few years. These days most people in say my position where I'm working at a well-regarded research-intensive university. I write 10 to 20 individual research proposals a year of which a small faction or funded is probably less than 10% or funded. And I think I'm actually doing pretty [00:24:00] well frankly for that ten percent. There are folks who go years without getting any of proposal from the despite submitting hundreds of Grant proposals for the amount of time involved in writing these proposals. It's worse and worse every year the money gets Tighter and Tighter and you know, what do you do one answer is that we've. We've morphed toward this model and maybe it's not what we all want what we have right now in a previous age where the government more directly supported universities where research was done regardless of funding you got different outcomes, but that was a relatively short period of time in our in our history. If you go back a little farther this a 19th century before for the most part research was done either by the independently wealthy or by people with some kind of philanthropic back. You know the prince of some new name your favorite to European potentate, the I the prince of whatever would would fund your research into discovering new molecules. And that was just the way it worked. Yeah. So these models have changed [00:25:00] radically over the years and interesting question is where this might go if in fact something like crowdsourcing or. The ubiquity of information and access to it through the internet really matures to inform how we do research. I do not know what the future holds. I know you've been thinking about the sorts of things in the past. Yeah, but it's interesting question. But what this looks like what the research infrastructure or ecosystem looks like when we can vote up or down a good research projects. Or maybe when crowdfunding can be the basis for what research gets undertaken may not be good. But it's another way to do it.   How good is crowdfunding   Ben: Would you trust a large population of people to be able to. Would you trust them to allocate research dollars?  I ask this based on the fact that you see a lot of these articles shouting an outrage that the government is funding someone to I don't know like walk around [00:26:00] and look at snails or something ridiculous. But then you could make the argument that  well you look at snails enough and then you find this one snail that has some chemical compound that then could be synthesized into medicine.  So would you trust crowdfunding? What would that get become Mason:  I probably wouldn't trust them as far as I can throw them. I guessed another way to think about it is there are I probably would not trust the crowd to vote for one thing. I might be trust them statistically if we could fund many things out of such a population and that's where again the benefit of large numbers comes in. I even though I think that the public generally might get some things wrong from time to time and maybe somewhat credulous and believe strange things on the whole they're strangely predictive. I'll give you another quick story about that please years ago was probably 10 years ago DARPA had this interesting idea. Don't remember exactly who DARPA but isn't. [00:27:00] Dandiya, if you look at how crowd Source information works, it seems surprisingly accurate and predictive. So what if we created a stock market for terrorist attacks, and we had people as actually placed bets on but you know invest in Futures, but. Terrorist attract attack Futures the the outcome would be people voting to maximize their return on their Investments would use all that work release or most information that we know is out there and would identify the most likely terrorist outcomes of those terrorists outcomes associated with say that again that are continually Rising stock something out there. Is motivating people to think that that's like the outcome now to issues, of course number one is incredibly crass and in extremely poor taste to defy such a thing [00:28:00] and. And Interpol was I think a little tone deaf, you know offering that as a project because it was very quickly jumped on by the me. Yeah. I can't believe how horrible these people are really thinking but they're not wrong in that the right kind of crowdsourcing can in fact the almost prescient almost almost. Telepathic or psychic in its ability to predict some things but not all things and that's where I say. You want to have a managed portfolio of this stuff. So every now and then maybe more often than not the crowd will be wrong. But if you give them the chance to run lots of different things, you'll both encourage A diversity of opinion which leads to different kinds of solutions now, that's a good thing and probably a statistical. Draping over all the different possibilities so that eventually the right answer can come out. So I think those two ingredients probably could make it work, but I'm very speculative about this right now. And again the DARPA stories interesting cautionary tale because as soon as that became public it just that went away in a [00:29:00] hurry.   What happened to grants?   Ben:   just to go back you mentioned that until recently people do University Research  only had to write one Grant every few years was that because the great sizes were much larger. Were they getting money from outside sources? Why was that? What changed? Mason: Yeah, that's interesting cause and effect will bit muddled and you can find other people probably better explain this history. But my quick version is something like this the kinds of research that we're done in the University's the kind of research was much more skewed toward the basic end of things pencil and paper theoretical development. And also the let's just be frank we knew less than we know now. So coming up with new stuff is a larger maybe than it was before I know if that's fair but I think that's just some research part of it. Yeah. So well there there you go. So first of all, we were solving different problems right now though. We are taking on a lot of the problems that actually you to be done in Industry. The famous example, of course is Bell [00:30:00] Labs right out of which the transistor came these days. The transistor will be developed within University and to develop a transistor or something analogous to it requires significant infrastructure Investments, not just pencil and paper. So even though the theory behind some conductors came out of University the actual practice of it came out of bell labs and there have been plenty of other examples like this. So I think actually industry has skewed away from doing research. Although there's a bit of emotion back toward it now, but it's nowhere what it used to be and then necessarily universities have taken a non not out of a sense of obligation, but rather because it's you know, there's a void and they rush to fill. But to fill it we need more money. So where does the money come from either comes from profit centers or come from the government with the government reducing tax income and also research investments in trouble for the 1980s. Now there's a new kind of Gap. It's the research Gap. So for the most part Industries not doing it and when University does do it. [00:31:00] It's spending a lot of a server for just bringing the funding. Got it. So you'd also argue probably that the universities are you not the best place for this to be done? You know, there is a lot of my opinion a lot of value in companies developing intellectual property. They keep it to themselves. They can make a profit on it. That's a huge motivator. What we do need a verse These almost exclusively is open. We publish it and basically anyone can pick it up and use it.   What do you think of breakthrough starshot and philanthropy?   Ben:  that makes a lot of sense. You also mentioned that  farther in the past a lot. There was a lot of funding that was being done by wealthy individuals and you're an advisor for breakthrough starshot. I believe which as far as I can tell is almost entirely bankrolled by wealthy individuals it seems like. Breakthrough starshot is sort of something that in the past. We would have expected NASA to do. Do you think that what do you what do you think about this [00:32:00] shift? Do you think that the wealthy individuals are going to start filling in that Gap where the pros and cons there? Mason: Well, first of all, I think that's a lot of what think it's a fact a lot of wealthy people certainly in the US have been filling that Gap. They have been funding a lot of research more than in the past. The the cliche is you start your computer. Can you sell it you make a billion dollars in new investment with that you really care about which is space exploration and that that that pattern has been repeated over and over Elon Musk for sure. Jeff Bezos for blue origin and there's been plenty of examples of this so, I don't know maybe maybe it's more than just a cliche. But anyway the going back to this question of will private individual Step Up. We have to an extent but they all have a certain something in it for [00:33:00] themselves that that was always the case has always been the case for privately funded science. Remember there are foundations. Now that still do fund Sciences. There's not as much there used to be but there are still these foundations, right? So the question is what kind of science do you get when you have a billionaire from to your. There's always going to be some idiosyncrasy associated with it and what we can take the Breakthrough starshot project as an example. Personally. I think it's a fantastic project. And for those of you who don't know the Breakthrough starshot project consists of coming up with a 20-year plan to build a spacecraft that could launch again in 20 years and take maybe 20 years to reach the closest star Proxima Centauri or maybe Alpha Centauri with the goal of returning some science data. Another three or four years after that depending on the light travel time. So that's a long duration project meets almost at the scale of a medieval Cathedral. I doubt that many of us on The Advisory Board will even [00:34:00] be alive to see that data come back if it ever does so it's not dangerous undertaking. It probably makes sense for that reason for it to be privately funded or funded by something like, you know a church, but these days the church does not fund science that way so it's not not a critique, but it's just it doesn't do that. Yeah, the way that they may be used to fund building Cathedrals. So these large projects like Cathedrals or Starships probably deserve a special kind of funding one thing I've discovered about em, it's not my own Discovery plenty of other people know this as well. I was just late to realizing it. Congress wants to fund things that they can take credit for okay, so it's going to be 2 4 or 6 years time frame at most where they want to see a return on their investment their investment being stepping up to be sure that some product project is funded. But so that's their return on investment timeframe and industries return on investment time frames in the sale of months. It takes [00:35:00] something like a billionaire or some other kind of philanthropic effort to fund a project that is longer than a few years. So if we really have aspirations that lie along this axis this temporal axis that makes us want to get a result in decades from now. We're going to have to look for funding source. That is not something governmental throughly not up to Industry. So I think there's a place for private investment for foundations or philanthropic. God is definitely that kind of thing so that you're not going to get funded by you know, the Air Force. Let's say or by orbital Sciences Corporation of Northrop Grumman Corporation,   Concerns about philanthropic time scales   Ben:  one concern that I always have about.  Philanthropic efforts is as you said there has to be something in it for people and when you're not able to get sort of a return on investment that's in money. Sometimes I've seen people be less patient because they [00:36:00] want to see progress on on a shorter time  scale. Do you do worry about that at all? Mason: Well, you know as I said, there's always this risk if you have a single investor, let's say again some billionaire to be named later that he or she will pull out the funding based on some whim they decide rather than funding a Starship that rather fun to the purchase of a massive sculpture massive bronze bust of him or herself to be placed in his front yard. Who knows? Yeah, and I'm not speaking about Yuri Milner here. Let me say for my few interactions of him. He seems like a legitimately. Two passionate scientist you really does care about knowledge for the sake of humanity. But it's also clear that he wants to be known as the person who successfully they support this work and things nothing wrong with that. So just like other examples the past of philanthropic contributions. You you probably want your name attached to these discoveries and that's again, that's fine [00:37:00] with me.   Experience With Different Organizations   Ben: and  shifting gears a little bit. You've had your research funded by many different organizations both inside the government and in Private Industry. Have you had different experiences with that? And  which ones are your favorite or what did your favorite ones do and what is your least favorite ones do? Mason: So that's a long story. So I'm gonna give you an answer which sounds like I'm itself said during and that maybe that's correct. The answer is when you get left alone to do the job. It works really well. Now I totally understand that if let's say I'm a member of a government organization or industry. I need to feel that my money is being well spent I want to check in and I don't want to end up with a yoyodyne propulsion systems. If you remember the movie Buckaroo Banzai, you don't want that kind of contractor gone amok kind of phenomenon. I get that [00:38:00] at the same time too much micromanagement sort of defeats the purpose of doing fundamental research. You know, the whole idea is we don't have a thing yet. We need to create that thing and that Act of Creation is not something you can exactly legislator specify the requirements. So I'm a little uneasy at of the idea about the idea that very tight control over the act of invention is going to give you a good result at the same time. Yeah, you need to be responsible stewards of whatever money you're using to fund Sky research. So I see where that comes comes from. I don't want to give a specific example that's going to get me in trouble with the essential functions, but I will say it government agency a government agency collaborating with us on a project. The project involved a few technological innovations after we scoped out the project with this government agency, the the folks involved at the government agency and supervising our work decided that work was so cool. They want to do it themselves. So they went ahead and try to make themselves removing. [00:39:00] Most of what I viewed as the really Innovative parts of the work leaving us with some fairly wrote tasks which there were still paying for. So, I guess I'm kind of glad to take the money but. Then the problem was because he's relatively unimaginative tasks the government agency decided it would be very helpful for us to be very tightly supervised to do these simple tasks. They were very good at and that led to a lot of in my opinion wasted money on things some example for this example is we were building an object out of some official part. Some of you can find at a hardware store, right? The reason we were doing so is because those parts a lot of design margin that is to say you could you can pressurize them or you could add electricity or whatever it was and the parts would not fail. They were made for Consumer use their super safe and excessively over design and it which is great actually very safe. But the sponsor wanted us to do value in [00:40:00] all these with a super detailed analysis using what's known as finite element analysis element analysis where you break it into little mathematical chunks and put in the computer. They wanted us to test it. They want to do all sorts of things for parts. You could buy at the hardware store which you buy every day without thinking about because they're super safe because they're built that way that was a ton of a waste of time. So so that was a very negative experience I think. II chalk it up to my naive tank and working with that sponsor. I now know what kind of work to specify for that sponsor at the same time. It was not going to be a relationship of whatever worked. Well for what it's worth. We took that project and we're doing ourselves now and we've made more progress in the last. Two years that we did in the two years previous where they were helping us. I guess we'll call it. So I'm glad to say that research is doing well now but it's only because we have a few resources internally that we can use to spend on the stuff. I'd rather not end on a cynical no Opera offer positive [00:41:00] version this case so the positive version and I will create the big breakthrough starshot with this positive version of those of us working on The Advisory Board. Sometimes get some funding. From the the foundation to see what that will really pay for a service but with that money I can do lots of cool stuff. So I've been able to turn a few students to we're solving some problems of interest of breakthrough starshot it when we've got some great results. It doesn't actually take that much as long as we have the researchers have some freedom to pursue the work on our own terms. So if there's a lesson there it's something along the lines of you need a light touch. Normal gostin, the former CEO of Lockheed said the best way he's ever found to manage people this pick the right folks be clear about what you want and then get out of their way. Yeah, and that's that's lucky to that's not just some pie-in-the-sky academic like me saying that so there's something to this in the lesson learned again is to have a light touch   How do you change the 10 year goals 8 year political cycle mismatch?   Ben: excellent. And then  going back to [00:42:00] NASA briefly while I was working with you. I saw consistently that the executive branch would set tenure goals, but then. For political reasons those goals would change at most every eight years. And so you get this  progress towards this 10-year goals and then it would change. Do you see any way to change that sort of unfortunate situation? Mason: Well, there have been wasted proposed for example for NASA again since I know that example really well, it has been proposed even in this most recent Congress that NASA should be funded on a 10-year time frame and the idea would be that a a congress whatever the hundred and some odd Congress whatever it is would set the budget for NASA appropriate the funds and get out of the way. So the idea is that again once a decade, maybe you would check in and change the objectives. So this is I think most people recognize that the best way to run these long-term [00:43:00] projects. If you keep changing course every two to six or eight years, you just have chaos. This is one of the main reasons why things like the James Webb Space Telescope the International Space Station space shuttle, these all have given mass of the reputation of going over budget. But I have to defend NASA in this case because NASA really is able to defend itself on the spaces. It's not NASA. Okay, it's Congress if you have a project. That is complicated and takes a long time. There's a natural funding profile that goes with this. It's a little bit at first while you get your feet under you and then there's a big lump in the middle and that tails off toward the end. This is standard funding profile. But NASA's budget from Congress is flat. So you end up very inefficiently smearing this money across a very long time which makes things inefficient expensive things. Don't go. Well, you lose good people along the way and you end up spending more in the long. This story has been told over and over again and Congress. They're smart people. Well, actually you may not think so, but they are [00:44:00] in my experience. They know what they're doing and they know that they're going to trade off between the right answer and the politically expedient answer the politically expedient answer is as long as they can be seen to having their finger on the button for NASA there there there folks will vote for them. So you understand that's what motivates them. So I would say if there's a way to make this work. Well, it's something like. Come up with a way for they can where they can get credit for things are working. Well without necessarily having to change what's going on. Yeah, and I don't have an answer probably make that work if that were possible that makes a lot of sense.   What's the best way to make the world that has never been today?   Ben: So I realize we're coming up on time. One of the the last things I want to ask you about was that  some things that people might not have guessed about you is that you have a master's in English because. As your bio states that you thought that that was the way to make the world that has never been its by inspiring people with writing [00:45:00] and then you change track completely and well not completely but you figured out that engineering was sort of the best the best way to do that. Now, what what do you think? Do you still think that  what you think the best way to enable the world that has never been? In  today's here. And now Mason:  I like the way you're asking that question it recalls that quote from Theodore Von Karman, right distinction between science engineering scientists create the world's or huh, scientists discover the world that is Engineers create the world that never was it's not exactly a way of claiming that Engineers are better than scientist. Is that really what it's about is about distinguishing between these two impulses. We have discovering the unknown and creating. What doesn't exist in my opinion both contribute to improving our lot as humans, so there's a place for both in a reason to have both let's not confuse one with the other. I have always been about creating things. I [00:46:00] suppose I get this from my parents. My dad's a writer. My mom has created many things over the years. She was an artist. She has been a an actress and a brilliant Coco to restaurant. She's a very much a polymath when it comes to things of all. So I probably get this from them at some level but I've always taken not to be one of the the Essential Elements of what it is to be human is to create to lie. If your impact on the world in a positive way at least an impact at all and positive is my choice. Okay suppose people choose to do negative things. So what I'm saying is that that impulse is always been part of what matters to me. When I was a young naive person, I thought I could have that impact through English literature. I still interested in this I still interested in writing and reading and I respect people who can make a career out us for a thing, but it wasn't what I was good at. So instead I felt like aerospace engineering particularly offered me the opportunity to [00:47:00] solve problems that haven't been solved and to make an impact that I felt like making. So I guess over the years I've discovered there are definitely different ways of looking at the world one of the most the way that I look at it another one of the ways that people get the world is what's the safest way I can keep my job and not get fired. And those are very different impulses and and look I recognize that my perspective here maybe comes across as I don't know what to elitist or entitled or first world or something where I'm saying that it's great to have the freedom to create and make an impact on the world. I see I clearly tightly to that value. At the same time, I recognize that not everybody has that opportunity. Sometimes you just gotta make do you got to do what you can keep your family fed? Keep your shoes on your feet and you don't have the freedom the luxury of being able to do everything exactly the way you want it. So I recognize I'm very fortunate in my career my life. So I do not in any way put down people who haven't got the bandwidth simply to set assignments sided set aside time to create. [00:48:00] But that is what matters to me and I'm very fortunate that I have a job that allows me to do that. Yeah, well said.   Final Statements?   Ben: So I do realize we're over time this was  amazing by the way, so I just want to make sure that I there's any points that I didn't hit on absolutely want to give you a chance to talk about that. Mason: Well, I'm so glad that your interest in this question. How do we innovate? I will offer that when government works. Well, it enables people whatever works while it enables people to do their best in the service of our nation. Let's say when it doesn't work. Well it tries to prescribe to micro manage to get in the way so I am far from being an anti. It's very kind of person that I hope it doesn't come across. I think the right policies are essential. I mean policy you can look at is the software of our [00:49:00] lives here in an innovation when that software is written correctly the rules that we follow and we choose to follow they enable us to be successful when the software is not right everything falls apart. So, you know, I actually would not be averse to turning over some policy making the software Engineers because I think they have a sense of how to write good software and lawyers when they do their job. Well, you know that works out well too. Yeah, but unfortunately to be a software engineer and to affect society requires some additional kind of tranny. So if I want to close with a comment, it would be something along the lines of that. I don't see that much of a distinction in what people are capable of whether it's mathematics. Or history or philosophy or art or technology or science? These are all in my mind forms of the same thing. There are things of which we are all capable. I suppose there's some sabanci there who can do multi-digit multiplication in their heads, but I'm not interested in that because I have a computer. [00:50:00] So instead I take that multidisciplinary capability. We all have and my opinion were born with as a sign that. We shouldn't feel limited by what we think we're good at or not. And so those of you interested in creating an innovating don't feel that you are limited by what your label is if you're labeled as a software engineer, maybe policy is the right thing for you if your if your label Les a lawyer maybe you should think about going into space technology. I don't know. What I'm trying to say is that there's there's a lot of freedom that we all have for pursuing good ideas and we should take. Advantage of our rare position here at the beginning of the 21st century where we have these tools. We still have the resources. We wish to create we have this one chance. I think to make make our work right? Outro We got a lot out of this conversation. Here are some of my top takeaways. If you have an organization full of smart motivated people that doesn't produce great results. If all the incentives are set up to avoid [00:51:00] risk, there's been a shift in where different parts of the Innovation pipeline happen more is shifted to universities and startups away from larger companies and government but the systems of support having caught up to that change. Finally taking a portfolio approach to technology and Innovation is a powerful concept that we don't think about it enough. I hope you enjoyed that you'd like to reach out. You can find me on Twitter under app and Reinhart and I deeply appreciate any feedback you might have. Thank you.  

Ben Bunker is the CEO of the Global BrightLight Foundation, which provides access to affordable solar-powered lights to people living without access to electricity. Many of the people that they help live in very rural areas. They rely on kerosene, candles or even wood chips for light. BrightLight’s vision is a world with universal access to clean, sustainable, and affordable energy. Ben: You know, those of us who have had the power go out before, whether because of a storm or something going wrong with the utilities, we’ve had this experience together but often it’s not one that’s a prolonged experience, maybe one or two days, maybe a week if you’re unlucky without power. And most of us resort to candles, flashlights or batteries. And so for a billion people around the world that’s actually every single day. It moves from being a minor inconvenience to something that significantly impacts their life in a series of different negative ways. I’ll give a couple of examples. One is economics. Some folks are spending up to 25% of their income on candles or kerosene or batteries every single month. When you only make $100 and you’re living in Guatemala or Peru, that $25 represents a significant amount of your income. David: So, you said over a billion people? Ben: Yes. David: And there are what, 7 billion people on the planet? Ben: Every day there’s more but that’s a good round number. David: So this is one out of every 7 people that doesn’t have electricity. Ben: Whether you’re in a waiting room or you’re in traffic or wherever you are just imagine that one out of every seven of those people is going to go home to a house without electricity and is going to have to endure a series of hardships because of that. Our work is focused primarily in Guatemala and Peru and we work in rural areas where most folks are day laborers or do some sort of farming often either as an employee of a larger agricultural operation or just to survive on their own. And these folks in the rural areas are usually somewhere between 5 to 10 hours or even a day away from the nearest town that has electricity. So, let’s say on an average day someone could get up, go into the fields, work on their harvest, come home and then probably have between 30 minutes to one hour of sunlight left, if they’re lucky. Often they work until sundown because they’re using all the productive light they have. And then when they get home, as I mentioned, they’re using candles and kerosene, so the house is almost completely black. To move around from room to room they actually have to pick up this light source and carry it with them. It’s a very dark way to live, not just in terms of the amount of light but also in the quality of the connections you can build because if you think about the time you spend with your family in the evenings that is all predicated on having light to bring together the community and the family. Not that folks don’t do that but it’s just a little harder when everything’s dark. David: I can’t even really imagine what that’s like. Please listen to the episode for the full interview. To learn more about the Global BrightLight Foundation or make a donation go to https://globalbrightlight.org/. Your gift will light a light. This episode of Clean Power Planet is brought to you in partnership with the American Solar Energy Society. ASES advocates for sustainable living and 100% renewable energy. They bring scientists, policy-makers, business people and citizens together to share knowledge and community. You can join ASES at https://www.ases.org/.

We cannot tell you how good it feels To have a guy like you build strategies Oh, Ben, you’re the big big brain of Field Service You’re surely at the top in the industry as we know it, and we know it   You rule the Internet of Things You makes lives easy in a blink We admire your work and the change it brings Especially People, Process and Technology, oh, oh! Ben You’re Gold!   And oh, how we love to talk about you at our podcast We wish for you to grow in your field even further and help the world so vast We learn from you each day, Ben Inspired by your logical brain And always looking forward to get better

                          Welcome back to The Emancipation Podcast Station - the place to hear about history researched and retold through the eyes of Middle school and HS students. Last time on the show…   Today we discuss The American West. Let’s dive in.   How was Hayes different than other presidents? Rutherford B Hayes - Presidential Podcast Gabe - Ruther B Hayes actually was the first president to celebrate easter thing he also promised only to go one term which he did and his wish was to restore faith that he says was lost since Lincoln was shot. Today historians refer to him as an average president. Skylar -Hayes won the electoral vote but Tilden won the popular vote, causing the Compromise of 1877, that we talked about in the previous episode. Rutherford B. Hayes was the 19th president of the United States. He served from 1877 to 1881. He was born in Delaware, Ohio on October 4th, 1822. He was part of the Republican Party. Before becoming president he was a lawyer, like former president Abe Lincoln. He was an abolitionist and mostly helped defend runaway slaves. 3.- Blake - Rutherford B. Hayes was the 19th president of the U.S. Hayes was the governor of Ohio before becoming the president. The election of 1876 was a disputed one as Hayes’ opponent Samuel J. Tilden had won the popular vote but Hayes had won the most electoral votes. - Ethan - His Vice President was William A. Wheeler.  He took office at the end of the Reconstruction Era which was the literal reconstruction of the U.S. after the Civil War. Like Gabe said he tried to take over where Lincoln left off. Hayes was probably one of Lincoln’s greatest supporters. Ben- Unlike many iconic presidents, Rutherford was not self-taught, he graduated from Harvard and studied law. His first few cases were about runaway slaves. 6.Ricky-Rutherford B Hayes was an extrovert and love to be around people. He was part of the Republican Party and like everyone has already said, he won the popular vote. Hunter- Rutherford B. Hayes’ presidency was from 1877-1881 he was pretty popular as an extrovert like Ricky has said he won the popular vote and like Skylar has said he also won the electoral vote.` Elijah- Rutherford B. Hayes’ was a abolitionist. He fought in the civil war as part of the union army and fought against slavery. He served as capacity of judge advocate on the field headquarters for his time in the civil war. The Gold Rush  Gabe - The Gold was found by John Sumter in 1848 who found flakes in a river well that got out and everyone was coming for some gold in 1849 they were called forty niners It even says that people were coming from asia australia europe and latin america for the gold well 1850 california became a state, established a government and joined the union. Most the prospectors made nothing some were successful most were not though there was no law enforcement sanitation crime rates were extremely high in goldfields and one camp even exploded. Most of the time the shopkeepers would make more than the actually prospectors because they charged so high for equipment and the shopkeepers became the rich ones. Skylar - The Gold Rush was a very big deal. Like gabe said people came from different  countries like Asia and Europe. Over 300,000 people came from the surrounding states and countries. The new sources of transportation like steamboats and railroads were making it easier than ever to get to the gold, before it was welcomed into the Union as the 31st state on september 9th, 1850. - Blake - A lot of people know what the Gold Rush is but not many people know the true violence behind the money. As soon as gold was found in California people from all over migrated to hopefully strike rich and have a profitable life, unfortunately this was not the case for all miners. Because of this discovery of gold it led to immigration and these immigrants were treated terribly as Nativism had become a very common thing. - Ethan - Small amounts of people became rich. But people kept saying “oh we’re about to hit gold, we don’t need food”. Those people either got lucky or died trying. People kept getting robbed because of the area and there were few good places to stay because it was only recently discovered. Vigilante`s were the only way to keep people from getting robbed. Too bad Batman’s only a comic...or was he? (Ricky- like John Marston? :) are you using this?) 5.Ben- A popular event in history changed the state of California and its population, literally, they kill off most of California’s native population. After the gold rush many forty-niners moved to alaska or australia because gold was found in both places. Ricky-The California Gold Rush was a period in between 1848 and 1855 in Sutter's Mill. 7.Hunter- lamborghinis are pretty expensive Gabe  nowadays cars like that can go up to nearly 600,000 dollars. Or at least the one i was looking at it was a convertible with a nice chrome black finish but enough about that. The cali gold rush was a really big one and it started a lot of robberies it went on  for seven whole years. I know lol i've looked up prices lololol - gabe Elijah- The California Gold Rush was not just a gold mine literally but also a entrepreneur gold mine. The many ways people made money off of the miners and just the region is amazing. Levi jeans were made at the time for miners so the jeans could be worn more and go though more wear and tear. Women were working inns for the miners and made money that way. The whole gold rush was a big way for people to make money and live the american dream of manifest destiny. Do you think he was a good or bad president? Grover Cleveland - Presidential Podcast  Gabe - Grover Cleveland was a democrat American politician and lawyer he was the only president in history to serve two non consecutive terms as 22nd president and the 24th president. He won the popular vote for three presidential elections 1884 1888 1892 He and woodrow wilson were the only two democrats to be elected during the era of republican. - Blake - The 22nd and 24th president of the United States was Grover Cleveland he was the only president to serve 2 non consecutive terms in history. Cleveland was a big guy around 300 pounds at the beginning of his first term he was the second largest president behind William Taft. Skylar - Grover Cleveland was born March 18th, 1837 in Caldwell, New Jersey. Cleveland didn’t get along with the media well because they wrote negative things about him. He didn’t get started in politics until he was 44, but he was a successful lawyer beforehand, just like Lincoln, like gabe said. He was part of the democratic party, and was a lawyer like Lincoln as well, just like Gabe said. He was elected as the mayor of Buffalo in 1881, Governor of New York in 1882, and then became president in 1883.   4.- Ethan - His full name was Stephen Grover Cleveland. He was the leader of the Bourbon Democrats. They opposed things like Free Silver. Free Silver was kind of the opposition against using silver in our coins, trying to maintain the gold standard. Other things they didn’t like were high tariffs, inflation, and imperialism. Imperialism was basically extending the country’s power through brute force and or diplomacy. 5.Ricky-Grover Cleveland was a big man as Blake has said, but he was comical and funny in his social interventions but, he was really really serious in his political convention. Ben- A big part of his life was cancer, he found out he had a tumor in the roof of his mouth in the June of 1893. But, the thing was, he didnt want the press to know, because cancer was so scary and deadly at the time. Luckily, he survived and got the tumor cut off on a boat. The cover up was that he got a dental procedure that removed two teeth, which was true, but it was because of the tumor removing process. He also died on June 24, 1908, and his famous last words were, “I have tried so hard to do right.” 7. Elijah- Stephen Grover Cleveland, part of the democratic party. In his first term he vetoed 414 congressional bills. When he first started politics he was a sheriff in New York. After finishing his two terms he went into law and then ran for mayor. He became the mayor of Buffalo in 1882.  After that he ran for governor and won. He kept moving forward as he went to president.   Who were the exodusters? The Homestead Act and the exodusters  Gabe - The Homestead Act was when the government gave away huge amounts of land to certain citizens you could not apply for a homestead if you beared arms against America which meant no confederate soldiers could apply and you had to be over 21. later they even allowed immigrants to apply you would get around 160 acres of land which is a lot i have seen 80 acres 160 is twice that its massive you got this land if you kept your promise which meant you would farm the land for 5 years. Even African Americans Could apply for a Homestead Act. - Blake - The Exodusters were a group of people mostly former slaves who were subject to racial violence and repression when in reality all they wanted was a plot of land to start a family and live prosperously. Skylar - The Homestead Act was was put into place in 1862. It stated that anyone who wanted to become a citizen could have around 160 acres of land, if they would farm it. The big debate was between slave owners who thought only slave owners should get the new land in the west to farm on. There were only to things you had to promise other than promising to farm the land was to borne arms against the United States Government and to never give aid and comfort to it’s enemies. 4.- Ethan - The Exodus of 1879 was a mass migration of African Americans leaving the South. Thus, that group of people became known as the exodusters. Inspiration for the name came from the book of the Bible, Exodus. These people settled in modern day Colorado, Kansas, and Oklahoma. 5.Ricky-Exodusters were former slaves in the South who then moved into the West in two places like Oklahoma Kansas Colorado. The Homestead Act helped this. Because of the Homestead Act granting millions of acres of land Exodusters could build settlements. This was stuff like the Oklahoma land run. Ben- Almost a century after they started, the government gave over one and a half million homesteads away, which was 10% of all American land. Hunter- The homestead act was just three years before the gilded age so 1862. all U.S. citizens who did not bear arms against the U.S. were able to apply for a homestead wich like Gabe and multiple others have said they gave 160 whole acres to women, immigrants, freed slaves, and after a while ex-confederate soldiers. Elijah-The homestead act was signed May, 20th 1862 by President Lincoln. This granted 160 acres of land in the West as homestead to anyone who is the head of the family or someone who is 21 and is a citizen of the USA. This became a way for ex-confederate soldiers were able to apply for homestead as much as freed slaves.   The reservation system  Gabe - The Appropriation Act of 1851 Made it where we could put indians in a reserve In oklahoma so they wouldn't come on land americans wanted to settle. Which also sparked the reservation system for reserves in other states for indians so the americans could settle and the indians could be in there own LITTLE spot. Skylar - The Indian Reservation System started in 1851 to keep the indians off the land these new “americans” wanted to settle on. The reservations were made so indians would have a small piece of land to live on. Even though they had been living there hundreds of years before the Europeans took over and pretended it was their land. I think it was really dumb to do this because it wasn’t really their land. They were basically treating them like slaves saying, that this is where you are going to live because these new settlers want to live there. 3.- Ethan - A lot of Native Americans didn’t like the system so thus started the Indian Wars. With a lot of bloodshed done,  Americans stand victorious in relocating the Indians. Ulysses S. Grant tried bringing Indians into mainstream American society. - Blake - Oh boy well as a lot of people know five Native American tribes came together to form the Five Civilized Tribes which consisted of the Cherokee (represent), Creek, Chickasaw. Seminole and Choctaw. This was the main group of Native Americans that were relocated to modern day Oklahoma 5.Ricky-as everyone already said in 1851 the reservation of Indians was basically just the US saying you can stay on this land but we're taking this land. The Dawes Act in 1887 of dismantled reservation giving each tribe plots of land. Ben- After the Indian Removal Act it was a strange time for the Native Americans. The white people thought since they took whatever they wanted before, they could do it again. It was a dark time for American morals.They could govern their tribes but that didn’t protect them from poverty and other terrible things. Hunter- The reservation system was a system in which native americans were not allowed to step foot in European-American settlements. During this time in American history the whites thought like Ben has said take what they want when they want it. Elijah- The Indian reservation system was put in place to keep land for whites that were moving westward with their philosophy as manifest destiny. The movement westward was always the american dream at the time and this was a way to do it. This caused a lot of hostility from the indians towards the expansionists. This is what helped cause the Indian wars.      Do you think this was good or bad for the Indians and why? The Dawes Act  Gabe -  The Dawes act Passed by Grover Cleveland allowed Him to destroy the reservations and make indians come into american society which i think was better i mean did you hear what was happening in those reserves pretty bad stuff. Then they would give land to certain indians and they became US citizens the rest i believe were classified as immigrants or something of that sort. This applied to all except the 5 civilised tribes but they didn't accept some free allotments of land so we passed the curtis act that allowed the Dawes act to apply to the 5 tribes and they also took the 5 tribes land and let white men settle there. Skylar - The Dawes Act was passed in 1887. Cleveland put this act into place to make indians come back into the American Society because like gabe said stuff was getting pretty bad. Instead of reservations they gave plots to certain tribes instead of having all different tribes in one small piece of land. I think this was a good idea because some tribes don’t get along with each other hence why they weren’t all one huge tribe, but rather many smaller groups of people that got along. 3.- Ethan - The Dawes Act was also known as Dawes Severalty Act or the General Allotment Act. It was signed on January 8th, 1887. It allowed president Grover Cleveland to take tribal lands from the Native Americans to make them American citizens. Cleveland basically was saying that the only way that they could earn citizenship was by giving up traditions. - Blake - More about my tribe yay. Originally the Dawes Act did not apply to the Five Civilized Tribes because they had already been cooperative with the government. Ricky-the Dawes Act just basically made some Indian tribes U.S citizenship. Ben- The white people thought that to stop the conflict they must break up the land, because that is what most indians fought about at the time, I think. This made the native americans spread out, and eventually make them become normalized in today’s society. 7. Elijah-The dawes acts basically helped native americans become US citizens but at the same time stripped the native americans from their tribal land.  This divided the european settlers and the native americans even more. Why were so many immigrants flooding into America? Chinese immigrants and Mexican Americans in the age of westward expansion  Gabe - Mexicans and Chinese became colliding with americans in there westward expansion. Most of the Mexicans and Chinese had to make enclaves in places to get jobs without losing them because of racist people Skylar - There wasn’t many immigrants in 1820, but with the gold rush, new jobs, new choices, by 1880 there were over 800,000 people who came to the US who were just chinese. New mexicans were also coming into the country and both of these new races needed jobs, but a lot of shop owners would give them jobs because they were mexican or chinese. 3.- Ethan - In the 1820s the Chinese started slowly entering America. By 1849 there were only about 650 Chinese immigrants in America. But then the Gold Rush came into play and by 1852 25,000 Chinese immigrants were in America. In 1880, the Chinese immigrant population increased to 3,000 - Blake - With westward expansion came conflict as Americans began fulfilling the manifest destiny and mining the California Gold Rush. The conflict was not only with the Natives but with Mexicans and Chinese. Ricky-With westward expansion came the fight for land and rights. Las Gorass Blancas was a group of Mexican rebels that fought against United States westward expansion and Manifest Destiny principles. They burned down houses, crops, and killed people. Ben- The rural booms pulled in immigrants from far and wide, but once they sailed across the ocean, they found couldn’t get enough resources to go back to their own country or continent. This caused many of them to have to work very menial jobs since no other employers would hire them like Skylar said. 7. 8.Elijah-During the 1890s the immigration of mexicans and chinese people were moving to america and becoming americans. But on both sides there was also a lot of resistance. As the Gold Rush ended americans populated california and were looking for outward expansion. This was to Mexico and China. Mexico had hostel movement towards(with the Mexican american war) americans and so did China (with the boxer rebellion)   Why did the Indians start the war? The Indian Wars and the Battle of the Little Bighorn  Gabe - The indian wars were wars fought because the indians did like being moved or have there land destroyed by americans so they fought massive battles in the end America won because they rock and nothing can destroy them and the indians were moved and lots of them died some which accepted land allotments became US citizens though so that's good. The last Indian war battle was at little bighorn where general custer made his great fail and got defeated by the indians which for some reason marked the ending of the indian wars Skylar - the Indian Wars were basically the whites against indians. They fought over land and natural resources. Of course the indians wanted it because it was their whole country before these new europeans came and settled there. The whites wanted it to build houses, new jobs, and farming, but the indians wanted it so they could live on it. They didn’t plan to make more jobs available to the new US citizens. - Ethan - The Battle of Little Bighorn(little contradiction) was also known as Custer’s Last Stand. That was the last battle of the Indian Wars. The Sioux(pronounced sue) Wars lasted from 1854 to 1890. In 1875, gold was discovered in Black Hills South Dakota. This brought miners into Indian territory. The Black Hills were hunting grounds for the Sioux, so the miners pleaded the US Army for protection. The Army responded with war, The Great Sioux Wars to be precise. It lasted from 1876-1877. - Blake - Oooo where do I start with you white people. The Indian Wars were a result of White People attempting to fulfill the manifest destiny by expanding westward and moving the Native Americans out. 5.Ricky- The battle of Little Bighorn was basically 6.ben- You can really tell how hard the Indians fought for their land, they had the power to keep up against the US military forces that attacked them, I think it’s because they just knew the land. 7.  Elijah-The Indian Wars was a revolt of the Indians against the white people with there manifest destiny. This was a war for land and resources. The whites were trying to move more westward and the indians resisted and that is where there war started.   What happened at the battle of wounded knee? The Ghost Dance and Wounded Knee  Gabe -  The Ghost Dance was a way for the indians to remember there tribal ways after the americans came and destroyed everything and the battle of wounded knee was were americans 7th cavalry slaughtered indiscriminately hundreds of sioux men women and children. Skylar - when there was a solar eclipse on january 1st, 1889 a shaman who was apart of the Paiute tribe said God showed him love peace through a dance called the Ghost Dance. Like gabe said it was a way for the indians to remember the dead and they could actually see their family who had passed away. 3.- Ethan - On December 29th, 1890, the US 7th Cavalry Regiment ambushed a Sioux Indian camp nearby Wounded Knee Creek. The Regiment tried to disarm the Sioux, but while doing so a shot was fired and that sent the Sioux into chaos, while the US Army massacred many men, women, and even children. These soldiers were exonerated and 20 soldiers were given medals of honor.( People can call me crazy, but I support almost whatever the US Army, Air Force, and Navy do. They were just doing their jobs, and they did them well.) - Blake - I’ll be talking about the aftermath of this and how you white people still couldn’t keep us down. After the wounded knee massacre the unit that had caused the scuffle had been pardoned and some had even been given a Medal Of Honor the most prestigious of military awards. But even after everything there are still over 2.9 million Natives in the U.S. Ben- You can cut down a tree but it’s even harder to get the roots out. The ghost dance spread a little bit of hope throughout the Indian culture, causing a pulse of resistance, the wars were starting to end, and the indians weren’t gonna give up. 6. 7. Elijah- The ghost dance was a vision of love and peace that was from God. This was a movement that was very spiritual. This was all about reuniting the indian tribes and coming together. The goal was banishment of all evil in the world. That’s all we have time for today. Thanks for joining us in this emancipation from the box, that is learning.

                          Welcome back to The Emancipation Podcast Station - the place to hear about history researched and retold through the eyes of Middle school and HS students. Last time on the show…   Today we discuss The American West. Let’s dive in.   How was Hayes different than other presidents? Rutherford B Hayes - Presidential Podcast Gabe - Ruther B Hayes actually was the first president to celebrate easter thing he also promised only to go one term which he did and his wish was to restore faith that he says was lost since Lincoln was shot. Today historians refer to him as an average president. Skylar -Hayes won the electoral vote but Tilden won the popular vote, causing the Compromise of 1877, that we talked about in the previous episode. Rutherford B. Hayes was the 19th president of the United States. He served from 1877 to 1881. He was born in Delaware, Ohio on October 4th, 1822. He was part of the Republican Party. Before becoming president he was a lawyer, like former president Abe Lincoln. He was an abolitionist and mostly helped defend runaway slaves. 3.- Blake - Rutherford B. Hayes was the 19th president of the U.S. Hayes was the governor of Ohio before becoming the president. The election of 1876 was a disputed one as Hayes’ opponent Samuel J. Tilden had won the popular vote but Hayes had won the most electoral votes. - Ethan - His Vice President was William A. Wheeler.  He took office at the end of the Reconstruction Era which was the literal reconstruction of the U.S. after the Civil War. Like Gabe said he tried to take over where Lincoln left off. Hayes was probably one of Lincoln’s greatest supporters. Ben- Unlike many iconic presidents, Rutherford was not self-taught, he graduated from Harvard and studied law. His first few cases were about runaway slaves. 6.Ricky-Rutherford B Hayes was an extrovert and love to be around people. He was part of the Republican Party and like everyone has already said, he won the popular vote. Hunter- Rutherford B. Hayes’ presidency was from 1877-1881 he was pretty popular as an extrovert like Ricky has said he won the popular vote and like Skylar has said he also won the electoral vote.` Elijah- Rutherford B. Hayes’ was a abolitionist. He fought in the civil war as part of the union army and fought against slavery. He served as capacity of judge advocate on the field headquarters for his time in the civil war. The Gold Rush  Gabe - The Gold was found by John Sumter in 1848 who found flakes in a river well that got out and everyone was coming for some gold in 1849 they were called forty niners It even says that people were coming from asia australia europe and latin america for the gold well 1850 california became a state, established a government and joined the union. Most the prospectors made nothing some were successful most were not though there was no law enforcement sanitation crime rates were extremely high in goldfields and one camp even exploded. Most of the time the shopkeepers would make more than the actually prospectors because they charged so high for equipment and the shopkeepers became the rich ones. Skylar - The Gold Rush was a very big deal. Like gabe said people came from different  countries like Asia and Europe. Over 300,000 people came from the surrounding states and countries. The new sources of transportation like steamboats and railroads were making it easier than ever to get to the gold, before it was welcomed into the Union as the 31st state on september 9th, 1850. - Blake - A lot of people know what the Gold Rush is but not many people know the true violence behind the money. As soon as gold was found in California people from all over migrated to hopefully strike rich and have a profitable life, unfortunately this was not the case for all miners. Because of this discovery of gold it led to immigration and these immigrants were treated terribly as Nativism had become a very common thing. - Ethan - Small amounts of people became rich. But people kept saying “oh we’re about to hit gold, we don’t need food”. Those people either got lucky or died trying. People kept getting robbed because of the area and there were few good places to stay because it was only recently discovered. Vigilante`s were the only way to keep people from getting robbed. Too bad Batman’s only a comic...or was he? (Ricky- like John Marston? :) are you using this?) 5.Ben- A popular event in history changed the state of California and its population, literally, they kill off most of California’s native population. After the gold rush many forty-niners moved to alaska or australia because gold was found in both places. Ricky-The California Gold Rush was a period in between 1848 and 1855 in Sutter's Mill. 7.Hunter- lamborghinis are pretty expensive Gabe  nowadays cars like that can go up to nearly 600,000 dollars. Or at least the one i was looking at it was a convertible with a nice chrome black finish but enough about that. The cali gold rush was a really big one and it started a lot of robberies it went on  for seven whole years. I know lol i've looked up prices lololol - gabe Elijah- The California Gold Rush was not just a gold mine literally but also a entrepreneur gold mine. The many ways people made money off of the miners and just the region is amazing. Levi jeans were made at the time for miners so the jeans could be worn more and go though more wear and tear. Women were working inns for the miners and made money that way. The whole gold rush was a big way for people to make money and live the american dream of manifest destiny. Do you think he was a good or bad president? Grover Cleveland - Presidential Podcast  Gabe - Grover Cleveland was a democrat American politician and lawyer he was the only president in history to serve two non consecutive terms as 22nd president and the 24th president. He won the popular vote for three presidential elections 1884 1888 1892 He and woodrow wilson were the only two democrats to be elected during the era of republican. - Blake - The 22nd and 24th president of the United States was Grover Cleveland he was the only president to serve 2 non consecutive terms in history. Cleveland was a big guy around 300 pounds at the beginning of his first term he was the second largest president behind William Taft. Skylar - Grover Cleveland was born March 18th, 1837 in Caldwell, New Jersey. Cleveland didn’t get along with the media well because they wrote negative things about him. He didn’t get started in politics until he was 44, but he was a successful lawyer beforehand, just like Lincoln, like gabe said. He was part of the democratic party, and was a lawyer like Lincoln as well, just like Gabe said. He was elected as the mayor of Buffalo in 1881, Governor of New York in 1882, and then became president in 1883.   4.- Ethan - His full name was Stephen Grover Cleveland. He was the leader of the Bourbon Democrats. They opposed things like Free Silver. Free Silver was kind of the opposition against using silver in our coins, trying to maintain the gold standard. Other things they didn’t like were high tariffs, inflation, and imperialism. Imperialism was basically extending the country’s power through brute force and or diplomacy. 5.Ricky-Grover Cleveland was a big man as Blake has said, but he was comical and funny in his social interventions but, he was really really serious in his political convention. Ben- A big part of his life was cancer, he found out he had a tumor in the roof of his mouth in the June of 1893. But, the thing was, he didnt want the press to know, because cancer was so scary and deadly at the time. Luckily, he survived and got the tumor cut off on a boat. The cover up was that he got a dental procedure that removed two teeth, which was true, but it was because of the tumor removing process. He also died on June 24, 1908, and his famous last words were, “I have tried so hard to do right.” 7. Elijah- Stephen Grover Cleveland, part of the democratic party. In his first term he vetoed 414 congressional bills. When he first started politics he was a sheriff in New York. After finishing his two terms he went into law and then ran for mayor. He became the mayor of Buffalo in 1882.  After that he ran for governor and won. He kept moving forward as he went to president.   Who were the exodusters? The Homestead Act and the exodusters  Gabe - The Homestead Act was when the government gave away huge amounts of land to certain citizens you could not apply for a homestead if you beared arms against America which meant no confederate soldiers could apply and you had to be over 21. later they even allowed immigrants to apply you would get around 160 acres of land which is a lot i have seen 80 acres 160 is twice that its massive you got this land if you kept your promise which meant you would farm the land for 5 years. Even African Americans Could apply for a Homestead Act. - Blake - The Exodusters were a group of people mostly former slaves who were subject to racial violence and repression when in reality all they wanted was a plot of land to start a family and live prosperously. Skylar - The Homestead Act was was put into place in 1862. It stated that anyone who wanted to become a citizen could have around 160 acres of land, if they would farm it. The big debate was between slave owners who thought only slave owners should get the new land in the west to farm on. There were only to things you had to promise other than promising to farm the land was to borne arms against the United States Government and to never give aid and comfort to it’s enemies. 4.- Ethan - The Exodus of 1879 was a mass migration of African Americans leaving the South. Thus, that group of people became known as the exodusters. Inspiration for the name came from the book of the Bible, Exodus. These people settled in modern day Colorado, Kansas, and Oklahoma. 5.Ricky-Exodusters were former slaves in the South who then moved into the West in two places like Oklahoma Kansas Colorado. The Homestead Act helped this. Because of the Homestead Act granting millions of acres of land Exodusters could build settlements. This was stuff like the Oklahoma land run. Ben- Almost a century after they started, the government gave over one and a half million homesteads away, which was 10% of all American land. Hunter- The homestead act was just three years before the gilded age so 1862. all U.S. citizens who did not bear arms against the U.S. were able to apply for a homestead wich like Gabe and multiple others have said they gave 160 whole acres to women, immigrants, freed slaves, and after a while ex-confederate soldiers. Elijah-The homestead act was signed May, 20th 1862 by President Lincoln. This granted 160 acres of land in the West as homestead to anyone who is the head of the family or someone who is 21 and is a citizen of the USA. This became a way for ex-confederate soldiers were able to apply for homestead as much as freed slaves.   The reservation system  Gabe - The Appropriation Act of 1851 Made it where we could put indians in a reserve In oklahoma so they wouldn't come on land americans wanted to settle. Which also sparked the reservation system for reserves in other states for indians so the americans could settle and the indians could be in there own LITTLE spot. Skylar - The Indian Reservation System started in 1851 to keep the indians off the land these new “americans” wanted to settle on. The reservations were made so indians would have a small piece of land to live on. Even though they had been living there hundreds of years before the Europeans took over and pretended it was their land. I think it was really dumb to do this because it wasn’t really their land. They were basically treating them like slaves saying, that this is where you are going to live because these new settlers want to live there. 3.- Ethan - A lot of Native Americans didn’t like the system so thus started the Indian Wars. With a lot of bloodshed done,  Americans stand victorious in relocating the Indians. Ulysses S. Grant tried bringing Indians into mainstream American society. - Blake - Oh boy well as a lot of people know five Native American tribes came together to form the Five Civilized Tribes which consisted of the Cherokee (represent), Creek, Chickasaw. Seminole and Choctaw. This was the main group of Native Americans that were relocated to modern day Oklahoma 5.Ricky-as everyone already said in 1851 the reservation of Indians was basically just the US saying you can stay on this land but we're taking this land. The Dawes Act in 1887 of dismantled reservation giving each tribe plots of land. Ben- After the Indian Removal Act it was a strange time for the Native Americans. The white people thought since they took whatever they wanted before, they could do it again. It was a dark time for American morals.They could govern their tribes but that didn’t protect them from poverty and other terrible things. Hunter- The reservation system was a system in which native americans were not allowed to step foot in European-American settlements. During this time in American history the whites thought like Ben has said take what they want when they want it. Elijah- The Indian reservation system was put in place to keep land for whites that were moving westward with their philosophy as manifest destiny. The movement westward was always the american dream at the time and this was a way to do it. This caused a lot of hostility from the indians towards the expansionists. This is what helped cause the Indian wars.      Do you think this was good or bad for the Indians and why? The Dawes Act  Gabe -  The Dawes act Passed by Grover Cleveland allowed Him to destroy the reservations and make indians come into american society which i think was better i mean did you hear what was happening in those reserves pretty bad stuff. Then they would give land to certain indians and they became US citizens the rest i believe were classified as immigrants or something of that sort. This applied to all except the 5 civilised tribes but they didn't accept some free allotments of land so we passed the curtis act that allowed the Dawes act to apply to the 5 tribes and they also took the 5 tribes land and let white men settle there. Skylar - The Dawes Act was passed in 1887. Cleveland put this act into place to make indians come back into the American Society because like gabe said stuff was getting pretty bad. Instead of reservations they gave plots to certain tribes instead of having all different tribes in one small piece of land. I think this was a good idea because some tribes don’t get along with each other hence why they weren’t all one huge tribe, but rather many smaller groups of people that got along. 3.- Ethan - The Dawes Act was also known as Dawes Severalty Act or the General Allotment Act. It was signed on January 8th, 1887. It allowed president Grover Cleveland to take tribal lands from the Native Americans to make them American citizens. Cleveland basically was saying that the only way that they could earn citizenship was by giving up traditions. - Blake - More about my tribe yay. Originally the Dawes Act did not apply to the Five Civilized Tribes because they had already been cooperative with the government. Ricky-the Dawes Act just basically made some Indian tribes U.S citizenship. Ben- The white people thought that to stop the conflict they must break up the land, because that is what most indians fought about at the time, I think. This made the native americans spread out, and eventually make them become normalized in today’s society. 7. Elijah-The dawes acts basically helped native americans become US citizens but at the same time stripped the native americans from their tribal land.  This divided the european settlers and the native americans even more. Why were so many immigrants flooding into America? Chinese immigrants and Mexican Americans in the age of westward expansion  Gabe - Mexicans and Chinese became colliding with americans in there westward expansion. Most of the Mexicans and Chinese had to make enclaves in places to get jobs without losing them because of racist people Skylar - There wasn’t many immigrants in 1820, but with the gold rush, new jobs, new choices, by 1880 there were over 800,000 people who came to the US who were just chinese. New mexicans were also coming into the country and both of these new races needed jobs, but a lot of shop owners would give them jobs because they were mexican or chinese. 3.- Ethan - In the 1820s the Chinese started slowly entering America. By 1849 there were only about 650 Chinese immigrants in America. But then the Gold Rush came into play and by 1852 25,000 Chinese immigrants were in America. In 1880, the Chinese immigrant population increased to 3,000 - Blake - With westward expansion came conflict as Americans began fulfilling the manifest destiny and mining the California Gold Rush. The conflict was not only with the Natives but with Mexicans and Chinese. Ricky-With westward expansion came the fight for land and rights. Las Gorass Blancas was a group of Mexican rebels that fought against United States westward expansion and Manifest Destiny principles. They burned down houses, crops, and killed people. Ben- The rural booms pulled in immigrants from far and wide, but once they sailed across the ocean, they found couldn’t get enough resources to go back to their own country or continent. This caused many of them to have to work very menial jobs since no other employers would hire them like Skylar said. 7. 8.Elijah-During the 1890s the immigration of mexicans and chinese people were moving to america and becoming americans. But on both sides there was also a lot of resistance. As the Gold Rush ended americans populated california and were looking for outward expansion. This was to Mexico and China. Mexico had hostel movement towards(with the Mexican american war) americans and so did China (with the boxer rebellion)   Why did the Indians start the war? The Indian Wars and the Battle of the Little Bighorn  Gabe - The indian wars were wars fought because the indians did like being moved or have there land destroyed by americans so they fought massive battles in the end America won because they rock and nothing can destroy them and the indians were moved and lots of them died some which accepted land allotments became US citizens though so that's good. The last Indian war battle was at little bighorn where general custer made his great fail and got defeated by the indians which for some reason marked the ending of the indian wars Skylar - the Indian Wars were basically the whites against indians. They fought over land and natural resources. Of course the indians wanted it because it was their whole country before these new europeans came and settled there. The whites wanted it to build houses, new jobs, and farming, but the indians wanted it so they could live on it. They didn’t plan to make more jobs available to the new US citizens. - Ethan - The Battle of Little Bighorn(little contradiction) was also known as Custer’s Last Stand. That was the last battle of the Indian Wars. The Sioux(pronounced sue) Wars lasted from 1854 to 1890. In 1875, gold was discovered in Black Hills South Dakota. This brought miners into Indian territory. The Black Hills were hunting grounds for the Sioux, so the miners pleaded the US Army for protection. The Army responded with war, The Great Sioux Wars to be precise. It lasted from 1876-1877. - Blake - Oooo where do I start with you white people. The Indian Wars were a result of White People attempting to fulfill the manifest destiny by expanding westward and moving the Native Americans out. 5.Ricky- The battle of Little Bighorn was basically 6.ben- You can really tell how hard the Indians fought for their land, they had the power to keep up against the US military forces that attacked them, I think it’s because they just knew the land. 7.  Elijah-The Indian Wars was a revolt of the Indians against the white people with there manifest destiny. This was a war for land and resources. The whites were trying to move more westward and the indians resisted and that is where there war started.   What happened at the battle of wounded knee? The Ghost Dance and Wounded Knee  Gabe -  The Ghost Dance was a way for the indians to remember there tribal ways after the americans came and destroyed everything and the battle of wounded knee was were americans 7th cavalry slaughtered indiscriminately hundreds of sioux men women and children. Skylar - when there was a solar eclipse on january 1st, 1889 a shaman who was apart of the Paiute tribe said God showed him love peace through a dance called the Ghost Dance. Like gabe said it was a way for the indians to remember the dead and they could actually see their family who had passed away. 3.- Ethan - On December 29th, 1890, the US 7th Cavalry Regiment ambushed a Sioux Indian camp nearby Wounded Knee Creek. The Regiment tried to disarm the Sioux, but while doing so a shot was fired and that sent the Sioux into chaos, while the US Army massacred many men, women, and even children. These soldiers were exonerated and 20 soldiers were given medals of honor.( People can call me crazy, but I support almost whatever the US Army, Air Force, and Navy do. They were just doing their jobs, and they did them well.) - Blake - I’ll be talking about the aftermath of this and how you white people still couldn’t keep us down. After the wounded knee massacre the unit that had caused the scuffle had been pardoned and some had even been given a Medal Of Honor the most prestigious of military awards. But even after everything there are still over 2.9 million Natives in the U.S. Ben- You can cut down a tree but it’s even harder to get the roots out. The ghost dance spread a little bit of hope throughout the Indian culture, causing a pulse of resistance, the wars were starting to end, and the indians weren’t gonna give up. 6. 7. Elijah- The ghost dance was a vision of love and peace that was from God. This was a movement that was very spiritual. This was all about reuniting the indian tribes and coming together. The goal was banishment of all evil in the world. That’s all we have time for today. Thanks for joining us in this emancipation from the box, that is learning.

The complicated and intensely personal chain of events that have led Jessica to keep her father's death a secret. --- PICTURES: First up is a picture of Jessica's bio-dad looking really dapper in a sharp suit and red tie. Next there’s a pic of Jessica as an adorable kid about the time her parents were getting divorced.  And of course, you have to see her dogs, which Jessica captioned “The cutest little turkeys EVER” in her text to me.  And I have to concur.  Get 'em all at facebook.com/secretroompod. ~Ben You can also see pictures on Twitter @SecretRoomPod! (Thanks Shelly ~Susie)   FREE AUDIBLE DOWNLOAD:  Thanks to Audible for supporting our podcast. Get a free audiobook with a free 30 day trial at audible.com/SECRETROOM or text SECRETROOM to 500-500.  Please sign up from a regular computer (not mobile) to ensure your favorite indie podcast that could gets credit. Thank you for supporting the Secret Room. :)   SECRET ROOM TEES ARE BACK ON AMAZON PRIME!  See Ben sport our tee in heather blue at facebook.com/secretroompod.  Show your affiliation with the coolest indie podcast on the planet!  Available in your favorite color on Prime at Amazon.com. (Or search Amazon for Secret Room podcast.)    

Tracy Lee: @ladyleet | ladyleet.com Ben Lesh: @benlesh | medium.com/@benlesh Show Notes: 00:50 - What is This Dot? 03:26 - The RxJS 5.5.4 Release and Characterizing RxJS 05:14 - Observable 07:06 - Operators 09:52 - Learning RxJS 11:10 - Making RxJS Functional Programming Friendly 12:52 - Lettable Operators 15:14 - Pipeline Operators 21:33 - The Concept of Mappable 23:58 - Struggles While Learning RxJS 33:09 - Documentation 36:52 - Surprising Uses of Observables 40:27 - Weird Uses of RxJS 45:25 - Announcements: WHATWG to Include Observables and RxJS 6 Resources: this.media RxJS RX Workshop Ben Lesh: Hot vs Cold Observables learnrxjs.io RxMarbles Jewelbots Transcript: CHARLES: Hello everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast, Episode 91. My name is Charles Lowell, a developer here at The Frontside and your podcast host-in-training. Joining me today on the podcast is Elrick Ryan. Hello, Elrick. ELRICK: Hey, what's up? CHARLES: Not much. How are you doing? ELRICK: I'm great. Very excited to have these two folks on the podcast today. I feel like I know them… CHARLES: [Laughs] ELRICK: Very well, from Twitter. CHARLES: I feel like I know them well from Twitter, too. ELRICK: [Laughs] CHARLES: But I also feel like this is a fantastic company that is doing a lot of great stuff. ELRICK: Yup. CHARLES: Also not in Twitter. It should be pointed out. We have with us Tracy Lee and Ben Lesh from This Dot company. TRACY: Hey. CHARLES: So first of all, why don't we start, for those who don't know, what exactly is This Dot? What is it that you all do and what are you hoping to accomplish? TRACY: This Dot was created about a year ago. And it was founded by myself and Taras who work on it full-time. And we have amazing people like Ben, who's also one of our co-founders, and really amazing mentors. A lot of our friends, when they refer to what we actually do, they like to call it celebrity consulting. [Laughter] TRACY: Which I think is hilarious. But it's basically core contributors of different frameworks and libraries who work with us and lend their time to mentor and consult with different companies. So, I think the beautiful part about what we're trying to do is bring together the web. And we sort of do that as well not only through consulting and trying to help people succeed, but also through This Dot Media where it's basically a big playground of JavaScripting all the things. Ben and I do Modern Web podcast together. We do RX Workshop which is RxJS training together. And Ben also has a full-time job at Google. CHARLES: What do they got you doing over there at Google? BEN: Well, I work on a project called Alkali which is an internal platform as a service built on top of Angular. That's my day job. CHARLES: So, you've been actually involved in all the major front-end frameworks, right, at some point? BEN: Yeah, yes. I got my start with Angular 1 or AngularJS now, when I was working as a web developer in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania at a company called Aesynt which was formerly McKesson Automation. And then I was noticed by Netflix who was starting to do some Angular 1 work and they hired me to come help them. And then they decided to do Ember which is fine. And I worked on a large Ember app there. Then I worked on a couple of large React apps at Netflix. And now I'm at Google building Angular apps. CHARLES: Alright. BEN: Which is Angular 5 now, I believe. CHARLES: So, you've come the full circle. BEN: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. CHARLES: [Chuckles] I have to imagine Angular's changed a lot since you were working on it the first time. BEN: Yeah. It was completely rewritten. TRACY: I feel like Angular's the new Ember. CHARLES: Angular is the new Ember? TRACY: [Laughs] BEN: You think? TRACY: Angular is the new Ember and Vue is the new AngularJS, is basically. [Laughs] CHARLES: Okay. [Laughter] CHARLES: What's the new React then? BEN: Preact would be the React. CHARLES: Preact? Okay, or is Glimmer… BEN: [Laughs] I'm just… CHARLES: Is Glimmer the new React? BEN: Oh, sure. [Laughs] CHARLES: It's important to keep these things straight in your head. BEN: Yeah, yeah. CHARLES: Saves on confusion. TRACY: Which came first? [Chuckles] BEN: Too late. I'm already confused. CHARLES: So now, before the show you were saying that you had just, literally just released RxJS, was it 5.5.4? BEN: That's right. That's right. The patch release, yeah. CHARLES: Okay. Am I also correct in understanding that RxJS has kind of come to very front and center position in Angular? Like they've built large portions of framework around it? BEN: Yeah, it's the only dependency for Angular. It is being used in a lot of official space for Angular. For example, Angular Material's Data Table uses observables which are coming from RxJS. They've got reactive forms. The router makes use of Observable. So, the integration started kind of small which HTTPClient being written around Observable. And it's grown from there as people seem to be grabbing on and enjoying more the React programming side of things. So, it's definitely the one framework that's really embraced reactive programming outside of say, Cycle.js or something like that. CHARLES: Mmhmm. So, just to give a general background, how would you characterize RxJS? BEN: It's a library built around Observable. And Observable is a push-based primitive that gives you sets of events, really. CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: So, that's like Lodash for events would be a good way to put it. You can take anything that you can get pushed at you, which is pretty much value type you can imagine, and wrap it in an observable and have it pushed out of the observable. And from there, you have a set of things that you can combine. And you can concatenate them, you can filter them, you can transform them, you can combine them with other sets, and so on. So, you've got this ability to query and manipulate in a declarative way, events. CHARLES: Now, Observable is also… So, when Jay was on the podcast we were talking about Redux observable. But there was outside of the context of RxJS, it was just observables were this standalone entity. But I understand that they actually came from the RxJS project. That was the progenitor of observables even though there's talk of maybe making them part of the JavaScript spec. BEN: Yeah, that's right. That's right. So, RxJS as it stands is a reference implementation for what could land in JavaScript or what could even land in the DOM as far as an observable type. Observable itself is very primitive but RxJS has a lot of operators and optimizations and things written around Observable. That's the entire purpose of the library. CHARLES: Mmhmm. So, what kind of value-adds does it provide on top of Observable? If Observable was the primitive, what are the combinators, so to speak? BEN: Oh, right. So, similar to what Lodash would add on top of say, an iterable or arrays, you would have the same sorts of things and more inside of RxJS. So, you've got zip which you would maybe have seen in Lodash or different means of combines. Of course, map and ‘merge map' which is like a flattening sort of operation. You can concatenate them together. But you also have these time-based things. You can do debouncing or throttling of events as they're coming over in observable and you create a new observable of that. So, the value-add is the ability to compose these primitive actions. You can take on an observable and make a new observable. We call it operators. And you can use those operators to build pretty much anything you can imagine as far as an app would go. CHARLES: So, do you find that most of the time all of the operators are contained right there inside RxJS? Or if you're going to be doing reactive programming, one of your tasks is going to be defining your own operators? BEN: No, pretty much everything you'd need will be defined within RxJS. There's 60 operators or so. CHARLES: Whoa, that's a lot. BEN: It's unlikely that someone's going to come up with one. And in fact, I would say the majority of those, probably 75% of those, you can create from the other 25%. So, some of the much more primitive operators could be used… TRACY: Which is sort of what Ben did in this last release, RxJS 5…. I don't know remember when you introduced the lettable operators but you… BEN: Yeah, 5.5. TRACY: Implemented [inaudible] operators. BEN: Yeah, so a good portion of them I started implementing in terms of other operators. CHARLES: Right. So, what was that? I didn't quite catch that, Tracy. You said that, what was the operator that was introduced? TRACY: So, in one of the latest releases of RxJS, one of the more significant releases where pipeable operators were introduced, what Ben did was he went ahead and implemented a lot of operators that were currently in the library in terms of other operators, which was able to give way to reduce the size of the library from, I think it was what, 30KB bundled, gzipped, and minified, to about 30KB, which was about 60 to 70% of the operators. Right, Ben? BEN: Yeah. So, the size reduction was in part that there's a lot of factors that went into the size reduction. It would be kind of hard to pin it down to a specific operator. But I know that some of the operators like the individual operators themselves, by reimplementing reduce which is the same as doing as scan and then take last, implementing it in terms of that is going to reduce the size of it probably 90% of that one particular file. So, there's a variety of things like that that have already started and that we're going to continue to do. We didn't do it with every operator that we could have. Some operators are very, very common and consequently we want them to be as optimized as possible. For example, map. You can implement map in terms of ‘merge map' but it would be very slow to do so. It might be smaller but it would be slower. We don't want that. So, there are certain areas we're always going to try to keep fairly a hot path to optimize them as much as possible. But in other spots like reduce which is less common and isn't usually considered to be a performance bottleneck, we can cut some corners. Or ‘to array' or other things like that. CHARLES: Mmhmm. TRACY: And I think another really interesting thing is a lot of people when learning RxJS, they… it's funny because we just gave an RX Workshop course this past weekend and the people that were there just were like, “Oh, we've heard of RxJS. We think it's a cool new thing. We have no plans to implement it in real life but let's just play around with it and let me learn it.” I think as people are starting to learn RxJS, one of the things that gets them really overwhelmed is this whole idea that they're having to learn a completely new language on top of JavaScript or what operators to use. And one of our friends, Brian Troncone who is on the Learning Team, the RxJS Learning Team, he pulled up the top 15 operators that were most commonly searched on his site. And some of them were ‘switch map', ‘merge map', ‘fork join', merge, et cetera. So, you can sort of tell that even though the library has quite a few… it's funny because Ben, I think the last RX Workshop you were using pairs and you had never used it before. BEN: Yeah. TRACY: So, it's always amusing for me how many people can be on the core team but have never implemented RxJS… CHARLES: [Laughs] TRACY: A certain way. BEN: Right. Right, right, right. CHARLES: You had said one of the recent releases was about making it more friendly for functional programming. Is that a subject that we can explore? Because using observables is already pretty FP-like. BEN: What it was before is we had dot chaining. So, you would do ‘dot map' and then call a method and then you get an observable back. And then you'd say ‘dot merge' and then you'd call a method on that, and so on and so forth. Now what you have is kind of a Ramda JS style pipe function that just takes a comma-separated list of other functions that are going to act upon the observable. So, it reads pretty much the same with a little more ceremony around it I guess. But the upside is that you can develop your operators as just higher-order functions. CHARLES: Right. And you don't have to do any monkey-patching of prototypes. BEN: Exactly, exactly. CHARLES: Because actually, okay, I see. This is actually pretty exciting, I think. Because we actually ran into this problem when we were using Redux Observable where we wanted to use some operators that were used by some library but we had to basically make a pull request upstream, or fork the upstream library to include the operators so that we could use them in our application. It was really weird. BEN: Yeah. CHARLES: The reason was because it was extending the observable prototype. BEN: Yeah. And there's so many… and that's one way to add that, is you extend the observable prototype and then you override lift so you return the same type of observable everywhere. And there are so many things that lettable operators solved for us. For example… CHARLES: So, lettable operators. So, that's the word that Tracy used and you just used it. What are lettable operators? BEN: Well, I've been trying to say pipeable and get that going instead of lettable. But basically there's an operator on RxJS that's been there forever called let. And let is an operator and what you do is you give it a function. And the function gives you the source observable and you're expected to return a new observable. And the idea is that you can then write a function elsewhere that you can then compose in as though it were an operator, anywhere you want, along with your other dot-chained operators. And the realization I had a few months ago was, “Well, why don't we just make all operators like this?” And then we can use functional programming to compose them with like a reduce or whatever. And that's exactly what the lettable operators are. And that's why I started calling them lettable operators. And I kind of regret it now, because so many people are saying it and it confuses new people. Because what in the world does lettable even mean? CHARLES: Right. [Laughs] BEN: So, they are pipeable operators or functional operators. But the point is that you have a higher-order function that returns a function of a specific shape. And that function shape is, it's a function that receives an observable and returns an observable, and that's it. So, basically it's a function that transforms an observable into a new observable. That's all an operator. That's all an operator's ever been. It's just this is in a different flavor. CHARLES: Now, I'm curious. Why does it do an observable into an observable and not a stream item into an observable? Because when you're actually chaining these things together, like with a map or with a ‘flat map' or all these things, you're actually getting an individual item and then returning an observable. Well, I guess in this case of a map you're getting an item and returning an item. But like… BEN: Right, but that's not what the entire operation is. So, you've got an operation you're performing whenever you say, if you're to just even dot-chain it, you'd say ‘observable dot map'. And when you say ‘dot map', it returns a new observable. And then you say ‘dot filter' and it returns another new observable. CHARLES: Oh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. BEN: So, this function just embodies that step. CHARLES: I see, I see. And isn't there some special… I feel like there's some proposal for some special JavaScript syntax to make this type of chaining? BEN: Yeah, yeah, the pipeline operator. CHARLES: Okay. BEN: I don't know. I think that's still at stage one. I don't know that it's got a lot of headway. My sources and friends that are in the TC39 seem to think that it doesn't have a lot of headway. But I really think it's important. Because if you look at… the problem is we're using a language where the most common use case is you have to build it, get the size as small as possible because you need to send it over the wire to the browser. And understandably, browsers don't want to implement every possible method they could on say, Array, right? CHARLES: Mmhmm, right. BEN: There's a proposal in for ‘flat map'. They could add zip to Array. They could add all sorts of interesting things to Array just by itself. And that's why Lodash exists, right? CHARLES: Right. BEN: Is because not everything is on Array. And then so, the onus is then put on the community to come up with these solutions and the community has to build libraries that have these constraints in size. And what stinks about that is then you have say, an older version of Lodash where you'd be like, “Okay, well it has 36 different functions in it and I'm only using 3 of them. And I have to ship them all to the browser.” CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: And that's not what you want. So, then we have these other solutions around tree-shaking and this and that. And the real thing is what you want is you want to be able to compose things left to right and you want to be able to have these functions that you can use on a particular type in an ad hoc way. And there's been two proposals to try to address this. One was the ‘function bind' operator, CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: Which is colon colon. And what that did is it said, “You can use this function as a method, as though it were a method on an object. And we'll make sure that the ‘this' inside that function comes from the instance that's on the left-hand side of colon colon.” CHARLES: Right. BEN: That had a bunch of other problems. Like there's some real debate I guess on how they would tie that down to a specific type. So, that kind of fell dead in the water even though it had made some traction. And then the pipeline operator is different. And then what it says is, “Okay, whatever is on the…” And what it looks like is a pipe and a greater than right next to each other. And whatever's on the left-hand side of that operand gets passed as the first argument to the function on the right-hand side of that operand. CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: And so, what that means is for the pipeable operators, instead of having to use a pipe method on observable, you can just say, “instance of observable, pipeline operator and an operator, and then pipeline operator, and then the Rx operator, and then pipeline operator and the Rx operator, and so on.” And it would just be built-in. And the reason I think that JavaScript really needs it is that means that libraries like Lodash can be written in terms of simple functions and shipped piece-meal to the browser exactly as you need them. And people would just use the pipeline operator to use them, instead of having to wrap something in a big object so you can dot-chain things together or come up with your own functional pipe thing like RxJS had to. CHARLES: Right. Because it seems it happens again and again, right? Lodash, RxJS, jQuery. You just see this pattern of chaining, which is, you know… BEN: Yeah, yeah. People want chaining. People want left to right composition. CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: And it's problematic in a world where you want to shake off as much unused garbage as possible. And the only way to get dot chaining is by augmenting a prototype. There's all sorts of weird problems that can come with that. And so, the functional programming approach is one method. But then people look at it and they say, “Ooh, yuck. I've got to wrap things in a function named pipe. Wouldn't it be nicer if there was just some syntax to do this?” And yeah, it would be nicer. But I have less control over that. CHARLES: Right. But the other alternative is to have right to left function composition. BEN: Right, yeah. CHARLES: But there's not any special syntax for that, either. BEN: Not very readable. CHARLES: Yeah. BEN: So, you just wrap everything. And the innermost call is the first one and then you wrap it in another function and you wrap that in another function, and so on. Yeah, that's not [inaudible]. But I will say that the pipe function itself is pretty simple. It's basically a function that takes a rest of arguments that are all functions. CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: And so, you have this array of functions and you just reduce over it and call them. Well, you return a function. So, it's a higher function. You return a function that takes an argument then you reduce over the functions that came in as arguments and you call each one of them with whatever result was from the previous. CHARLES: Right. Like Tracy mentioned in the pre-show, I'm an aspiring student of functional programming. So, would this be kind of like a monoid here where you're mashing all these functions together? Is your empty value? I'm just going to throw it out there. I don't know if it's true or not, but that's my conjecture. BEN: Yes. Technically, it's a monoid because it wouldn't work unless it was a monoid. Because monoids, I believe the category theory I think for monoid is that monoids can be concatenated because they definitely have an end. CHARLES: Right. BEN: So, you would not be able to reduce over all those functions and build something with that, like that, unless it was a monoid. So yeah, the fact that there's reduction involved is a cue that it's a monoid. CHARLES: Woohoo! Alright. [Laughter] CHARLES: Have you found yourself wanting to apply some of these more “rigorous” formalisms that you find out there in the development of RxJS or is that just really a secondary concern? BEN: It's a secondary concern. It's not something that I like. It's something I think about from time to time, when really, debating any kind of heavy issue, sometimes it's helpful. But when it comes to teaching anybody anything, honestly the Haskell-isms and category theory names, all they do is just confuse people. And if you tell somebody something is a functor, they're like, “What?” And if you just say it's mappable, they're like, “Oh, okay. I can map that.” CHARLES: [Laughs] Right, right. BEN: And then the purists would be like, “But they're not the same thing.” And I would be like, “But the world doesn't care. I'm sorry.” CHARLES: Yeah, yeah. I'm kind of experiencing this debate myself. I'm not quite sure which side I fall on, because on the one hand it is arbitrary. Functor is a weird name. But I wish the concept of mappable existed. It does, but I feel like it would be handy if people… because there's literally five things that are super handy, right? Like mappable, if we could have a name for monoid. But it's like, really, you just need to think in terms of these five constructs for 99% of the stuff that you do. And so, I always wonder, where does that line lie? And how… mappable, is that really more accessible than functor? Or is that only because I was exposed to the concept of mapping for 10 years before I ever heard the F word. BEN: Yes, and yes. I mean, that's… CHARLES: [Laughs] BEN: Things that are more accessible are usually more accessible because of some pre-given knowledge, right? What works in JavaScript probably isn't going to work in Haskell or Scala or something, right? CHARLES: Mmhmm. BEN: If someone's a Java developer, certain idioms might not make sense to them that come from the JavaScript world. CHARLES: Right. But if I was learning like a student, I would think mappable, I'd be thinking like, I would literally be thinking like Google Maps or something like that. I don't know. BEN: Right, right. I mean, look at C#. C#, a mapping function is always going to be called select, right, because that's C#. That's their idiom for the same thing. CHARLES: Select? BEN: Yeah. CHARLES: Really? BEN: Yeah, select. So, they'll… CHARLES: Which in Ruby is like find. BEN: Yeah. there's select and then, what's the other one, ‘select many' or something like that. [Chuckles] BEN: So, that's C#. CHARLES: Oh, like it's select from SQL. Okay. BEN: Yeah, I think that's kind of where it came from because people had link and then they had link to SQL and then they're like, well I want to do this with regular code, with just using some more… less nuanced expressions. So, I want to be able to do method calls and chain those together. And so, you end up with select functions. And I think that that exists even in Rx.NET, although I haven't used Rx.NET. CHARLES: Hmm, okay. ELRICK: So, I know you do a lot of training with Rx. What are some of the concepts that people struggle with initially? TRACY: I think when we're teaching RX Workshop, a lot of the people sort of… I'll even see senior level people struggle with explaining it, is the difference between observables and observers and then wrapping their head around the idea that, “Hey, observables are just functions in JavaScript.” So, they're always thinking observables are going to do something for you. Actually, it's not just in Angular but also in React, but whenever someone's having issues with their Rx applications, it's usually something that they're like nesting observables or they're not subscribing to something or they've sort of hot-messed themselves into a tangle. And I'm sure you've debugged a bunch of this stuff before. The first thing I always ask people is, “Have you subscribed?” Or maybe they're using an Angular… they're using pipes async but they're also calling ‘dot subscribe' on their observable. BEN: Yeah. So, like in Angular they'll do both. Yeah. There's that. I think that, yeah, that relates to the problem of people not understanding that observables are really just functions. I keep saying that over and over again and people really don't seem to take it to heart for whatever reason. [Chuckles] BEN: But you get an observable and when you're chaining all those operators together, you're making another observable or whatever, observables don't do anything until you subscribe to them. They do nothing. CHARLES: Shouldn't they be called like subscribable? BEN: Yes. [Chuckles] BEN: They probably should. But we do hand them an observer. So, you are observing something. But the point being is that they don't do anything at all until you subscribe to them. And in that regard, they're like functions, where functions don't do anything unless you call them. So, what ends up happening with an observable is you subscribe to it. You give it an observer, three callbacks which are then coerced into an observer. And it takes that observer and it hands it to the body of this observable definition and literally has an observer inside of there. And then you basically execute that function synchronously and do things, whatever those things are, to set up some sort of observation. Maybe you spin up a WebSocket and tie into some events on it and call next on the observer to get values out of your observable. The point being that if you subscribe to an observable twice, it's the same thing as calling a function twice. And for some reason, people have a hard time with that. They think, if I subscribe to the observable twice, I've only called the function once. CHARLES: I experienced this confusion. And I remember the first time that that… like, I was playing with observables and the first time I actually discovered that, that it was actually calling my… now what do you call the function that you pass to the constructor that actually does, that calls next or that gets passed the observer? TRACY: [Inaudible] BEN: I like to call it an initialization function or something. But the official name from the TC39 proposal is subscriber function. CHARLES: Subscriber function. So, like… BEN: Yeah. CHARLES: I definitely remember it was one of those [makes explosion sound] mind-blowing moments when I realized when I call my subscribe method, the entire observable got run from the very beginning. But my intuition was that this is an object. It's got some shared state, like it's this quasar that I'm now observing and I'm seeing the flashes of light coming off of it. But it's still the same object. You think of it as having yeah, not as a function. Okay. No one ever described it to me as just a function. But I think I can see it now. ELRICK: Yeah, me neither. CHARLES: But yeah, you think of it in the same way that most people think of objects, as like, “I have this object. I have a reference to it.” Let observable equal new observable. It's a single thing. It's a single identity. And so, that's the thing that I'm observing. It's not that I'm invoking this observable to observe things. And I think that's, yeah, that's a subtle nuance there. I wish I had taken y'all's course, I guess is what I'm saying. ELRICK: Yeah. BEN: Yeah. Well, I've done a few talks on it. CHARLES: [Laughs] BEN: I always try to tell people, “It's just a function. It's just a function.” I think what happens to a lot of people too is there's the fact that it's an object. But I think what it is, is people's familiarity with promises does this. Because promises are always multicast. They are always “hot”. And the reason for this is because they're eager. So, by the time you have a promise, whatever is producing value to the promise has already started. And that means that they're inherently a multicast. CHARLES: Right. BEN: So, people are used to that behavior of, I can ‘then' off of this promise and it always means one thing. And it's like, yeah, because the one thing has nothing to do with the promise. It wasn't [Chuckles] CHARLES: Right. BEN: This promise is just an interface for you to view something that happened in the past, where an observable is more low-level than that and more simple than that. It just states, “I'm a function that you call. I'm going to be able to do anything a function can do. And by the way, you're giving me an observer and I'm going to do some stuff with that too and notify you via this observer that you handed me.” Because of that you could take an observable and close over something that had already started. Say you had a WebSocket that was already running. You could create a new observable and just like any function, close over that, externally create a WebSocket. And then everyone that subscribes to that observable is tying an observer to that same WebSocket. Then you're multicast. Then you're “hot”. ELRICK: [Inaudible] CHARLES: Right. So, I was going to say that's the distinction that Jay was talking about. He was talking about we're going to just talk about… he said at the very beginning, “We're just going to talk about hot observable.” ELRICK: Yup. CHARLES: But even a hot observable is still theoretically evaluating every single time you subscribe. You're getting a new observable. You're evaluating that observable afresh each time. It just so happens that in the lexical scope of that observable subscriber function, there is this WebSocket? BEN: Yeah. So, it's the same thing. Imagine you wrote a function that when you called it created a new WebSocket and then… say, you wrote a new function that you gave an observer object to, right? An observer object has next, error, and complete. And in that function, when you called it, it created a new WebSocket and then it tied the ‘on message' and ‘on close' and whatever to your observer's next method and your observer's error message and so on. When you call that function, you would expect a new WebSocket to be created every single time. Now, let's just say alternately you create a WebSocket and then you write a new function that that function closes over that WebSocket. So, you reference the WebSocket that you externally created inside of your function. When you call that function, it's not going to create a new WebSocket every time. It's just closing over it, right? So, even though they both are basically doing the same thing, now the latter one of those two things is basically a hot observable and the former is a cold observable. Because one is multicast which is, “I'm sharing this one WebSocket with everybody,” and the other one is unicast which is, “I am going to create a new WebSocket for each person that calls me.” And that's the [inaudible] people have a hard time with. CHARLES: Right. But really, it's just a matter of scope. BEN: Yeah. The thing people have a hard time with, with observables, is not realizing that they're actually just functions. CHARLES: Yeah. I just think that maybe… see, when I hear things like multicast and unicast, that makes me think of shared state, whereas when you say it's just a matter of scope, well then I'm thinking more in terms of it being just a function. It just happens that this WebSocket was already [scoped]. BEN: Well, shared state is a matter of scope, right? CHARLES: Yes, it is. It is. Oh, sorry. Shared state associated with some object identity, right? BEN: Right. CHARLES: But again, again, it's just preconceptions, really. It's just me thinking that I've had to manage lists of listeners and have multicast observers and single-cast observers and having to manage those lists and call notify on all of them. And that's really not what's happening at all. BEN: Yeah. Well, I guess the real point is observables can have shared state or they could not have shared state. I think the most common version and the most composable version of them, they do not have any shared state. It's just one of those things where just like a function can have shared state or it could be pure, right? There's nothing wrong with either one of those two uses of a function. And there's nothing wrong with either one of those two uses of Observable. So, honest to god, that is the biggest stumbling block I think that I see people have. That and if I had to characterize it I would say fear and loathing over the number of operators. People are like… CHARLES: [Chuckles] BEN: And they really think because everyone's used to dealing with these frameworks where there's an idiomatic way to do everything, they think there's going to be an RxJS idiomatic way to do things. And that's just patently false. That's like saying there's an idiomatic way to use functions. There's not. Use it however it works. The end. It's not… CHARLES: Mmhmm, mmhmm. BEN: You don't have to use every operator in a specific way. You can use it however works for you and it's fine. ELRICK: I see that you guys are doing some fantastic work with your documentation. Was that part of RxJS 2.0 docs? TRACY: I was trying to inspire people to take on the docs initiative because I think when I was starting to learn RxJS I would get really frustrated with the docs. BEN: Yeah. TRACY: I think the docs are greatly documented but at the same time if you're not a senior developer who understands Rx already, then it's not really helpful. Because it provides more of a reference point that the guys can go back and look at, or girls. So anyways, after many attempts of trying to get somebody to lead the project I just decided to lead the project myself. [Laughter] TRACY: And try to get… the community is interesting because I think because the docs can be sometimes confusing… Brian Troncone created LearnRxJS.io. There's these other visualization projects like RxMarbles, RxViz, et cetera. And we just needed to stick everybody together. So, it's been a project that I think has been going on for the past two months or so. We have… it's just an Angular app so it's probably one of the most easiest projects to contribute to. I remember the first time I tried to contribute to the Ember docs. It literally took me an hour to sit there with a learning team, Ember Learning Team member and… actually, maybe it was two hours, just to figure out how the heck… like all the things I had to download to get my environment set up so that I could actually even contribute to the darn documentation. But with the Rx, the current RxJS docs right now is just an Angular app. You can pull it down. It's really easy. We even have people who are just working on accessibility, which is super cool, right? So, it's a very friendly place for beginners. BEN: I'm super pleased with all the people that have been working on that. Brian and everybody, especially on the accessibility front. Jen Luker [inaudible] came in and voluntarily… she's like the stopgap for all accessibility to make sure everything is accessible before we release. So, that's pretty exciting. TRACY: Yeah. ELRICK: Mmhmm. TRACY: So funny because when me and Jen started talking, she was talking about something and then I was like, “Oh my god, I'm so excited about the docs.” She's like, “I'm so excited, too! But I don't really know why I'm excited. But you're excited, so I'm excited. Why are you excited?” [Laughter] TRACY: I was like, “I don't know. But I'm excited, too!” [Chuckles] TRACY: And then all of a sudden we have accessibility. [Laughs] ELRICK: Mmhmm. Yeah, I saw some amazing screenshots. Has the new docs, have they been pushed up to the URL yet? TRACY: Nah, they are about to. We were… we want to do one more accessibility run-through before we publish it. And then we're going to document. We want to document the top 15 most viewed operators. But we should probably see that in the next two weeks or so, that the new docs will be… I mean, it'll say “Beta, beta, beta” all over everything. But actually also, some of our friends, [Dmitri] from [Valas] Software, he is working on the translation portion to make it really easy for people to translate the docs. CHARLES: Ah. TRACY: So, a lot of that came from the inspiration from the Vue.js docs. we're taking the versioning examples that Ember has done with their docs as inspiration to make sure that our versioning is really great. So, it's great that we can lend upon all the other amazing ideas in the industry. ELRICK: Oh, yeah. CHARLES: Yeah, it's fantastic. I can't wait to see them. ELRICK: Yeah, me neither. The screenshots look amazing. I was like, “Wow. These are some fabulous documentation that's going to be coming out.” I can't wait. TRACY: Yeah. Thank you. CHARLES: Setting the bar. ELRICK: Really high. [Laughter] CHARLES: Actually, I'm curious. Because observables are so low-level, is there some use of them that… what's the use of them that you found most surprising? Or, “Whoa, this was a crazy hack.” BEN: The weirdest use of observables, there's been quite a few odd ones. One of the ones that I did one time that is maybe in RxJS's wheelhouse, it was just that RxJS already existed. So, I didn't want to pull in another transducer library, was using RxJS as a transducer. Basically… in Netflix we had a situation where we had these huge, huge arrays of very large objects. And if you try to take something like that and then map it and then filter it and then map it and then filter it, we're using Array map and filter, what ends up happening is you create all sorts of intermediary arrays in-memory. And then garbage collection has to come through and clean that up. And that locks your thread. And over time, we were experiencing slowness with this app. And it would just build up until eventually it ground to a halt. And I used RxJS because it was an available tool there to wrap these arrays in an observable and then perform operations on them step-by-step, the same map, filter, and so on. But when you do that, it doesn't create intermediary arrays because it passes each value along step to step instead of producing an entire array and then doing another step and producing an entire array, and so on. So… CHARLES: So, will you just… BEN: It saved garbage collection and it increased the performance of the app. But that's just in an extreme case. I would never do that with just regular arrays. If anything, it was because it was huge, huge arrays of very large objects. CHARLES: So, you would create an observable our of the array and then just feed each element into the observable one at a time? BEN: Well, no. If you say ‘observable from' and you give it an array, that's basically what it does. CHARLES: Okay. BEN: It loops over the array and nexts those values out of the array synchronously. CHARLES: I see, I see. BEN: So, it's like having a for loop and then inside of that for loop saying, “Apply the map. Apply the filter,” whatever, to each value as they're going through. But when you look at it, if you had array map, filter, reduce, it's literally just taking the first step and saying ‘observable from' and wrapping that array and then the rest of it's still the same. CHARLES: Right. Yeah. No, that's really cool. BEN: That was a weirder use of it. I've heard tell of other things where people used observables to do audio synchronization, which is pretty interesting. Because you have to be very precise with audio synchronization. So, hooking into some of the Web Audio APIs and that sort of thing. That's pretty interesting. The WebSocket multiplexing is something I did at Netflix that's a little bit avant-garde for observable use because you essentially have an observable that is your WebSocket. And then you create another observable that closes over that observable and sends messages over the WebSocket for what you're subscribed to and not subscribed to. And it enables you to very easily retry connections and these sorts of things. I did a whole talk on that. That one's pretty weird. CHARLES: Yeah. Man, I [inaudible] to see that. BEN: But in the general use case, you click a button, you make an AJAX request, and then you get that back and maybe you make another AJAX request. Or like drag and drop and these sorts of things where you're coordinating multiple events together, is the general use case. The non-weird use case for RxJS. Tracy does weird stuff with RxJS though. [Laughter] CHARLES: Yeah, what's some weird uses of RxJS? TRACY: I think my favorite thing to do right now is to figure out how many different IoT-related things I can make work with RxJS. So, how many random things can I connect to an application using that? BEN: Tracy's projects are the best. They're so good. [Laughter] TRACY: Well, Ben and I created an application where you can take pictures of things using the Google Image API and it'll spit back a set of puns for you. So, you take a picture of a banana, it'll give you banana puns. Or you can talk to it using the speech recognition API. My latest thing is I really want to figure out how to… I haven't figured out if Bluetooth Low Energy is actually enabled on Google Home Minis. But I want to get my Google Home Mini to say ‘booty'. [Inaudible] [Laughter] CHARLES: RxJS to the rescue. [Laughter] BEN: Oh, there was, you remember Ng-Cruise. We did Ng-Cruise and on there, Alex Castillo brought… TRACY: Oh, that was so cool. BEN: All sorts of interesting… you could read your brain waves. Or there was another one that was, what is it, the Microsoft, that band put around your wrist that would sense what direction your arm was in and whether or not your hand was flexed. And people… TRACY: Yeah, so you could flip through things. BEN: Yeah. And people were using reactive programming with that to do things like grab a ball on the screen. Or you could concentrate on an image and see if it went blurry or not. ELRICK: Well, for like, Minority Report. BEN: Oh, yeah, yeah. Literally, watching a machine read your mind with observables. That was pretty cool. That's got to be the weirdest. TRACY: Yeah, or we had somebody play the piano while they were wearing one of the brainwave… it's called the OpenBCI project is what it is. And what you can do is you can actually get the instructions to 3D print out your own headset and then buy the technology that allows you to read brain waves. And so with that, it's like… I mean, it was really awesome to watch her play the piano and just see how her brain waves were going super crazy. But there's also these really cool… I don't know if you guys have heard of Jewelbots, but they're these programmable friendship bracelets that are just little Arduino devices that light up. I have two of them. I haven't even opened them. CHARLES: [Laughs] TRACY: I've been waiting to play with them with you. I don't know what we're going to do, but I just want to send you lights. Flashing lights. [Laughter] TRACY: Morse code ask you questions about RxJS while you're working. [Laughter] CHARLES: Yeah. Critical bug. Toot-toot-toot-too-too-too-too-toot-toot. [Laughter] CHARLES: RxJS Justice League. TRACY: That would actually be really fun. [Laughter] TRACY: That would be really fun. I actually really want to do that. But… CHARLES: I'm sure the next time we talk, you will have. TRACY: [Laughs] Yes. Yes, yes, yes, I know. I know. we'll do it soon. We just need to find some time while we're not going crazy with conferences and stuff like that. CHARLES: So, before we head out, is there any upcoming events, talks, releases, anything that we ought to be, we or the listeners, ought to be aware of? TRACY: Yeah, so one of the things is that Ben and I this weekend actually just recorded the latest version of RX Workshop. So, if you want to learn all about the latest, latest, newest new, you can go ahead and take that course. We go through a lot of different things like multiplex WebSockets, building an application. Everywhere from the fundamentals to the more real world implementations of RxJS. BEN: Yeah. Even in the fundamentals area, we've had friends of ours that are definitely seasoned Rx veterans come to the workshop. And most of them ask the most questions while talking about the fundamentals. Because I tend to dig into, either deep into the internals or into the why's and how's thing. Why and how things work. Even when it comes to how to subscribe to an observable. Deep detailed information about what happens if you don't provide an error handler and certain cases and how that's going to change in upcoming versions, and why that's changing in upcoming versions, and what the TC39's thoughts are on that, and so on and so forth. So, I try to get into some deeper stuff and we have a lot of fun. And we tend to be a little goofier at the workshops from time to time than we were in this podcast. Tracy and I get silly when we're together. TRACY: It's very true. [Laughter] TRACY: But I think also, soon I think there are people that are going to be championing an Observable proposal on what [inaudible]. So, aside from the TC39 Observable proposal that's currently still at stage one, I don't know Ben if you want to talk a little bit about that. BEN: Oh, yeah. So, I've been involved in conversations with folks from Netflix and Google as well, Chrome team and TC39 members, about getting the WHATWG, the ‘what wig', they're a standards body similar to W3C, to include observables as part of the DOM. The post has not been made yet. But the post is going to be made soon as long as everybody's okay with it. And what it boils down to is the idea of using observables as part of event targets. An event target is the API we're all familiar with for ‘add event listener', ‘remove event listener'. So, pretty much anywhere you'd see those methods, there might also someday be an on method that would return an observable of events. So, it's really, really interesting thing because it would bring at least the primitives of reactive programming to the browser. And at the very least it would provide maybe a nicer API for people to subscribe to events coming from different DOM elements. Because ‘add event listener' and ‘remove event listener' are a little unergonomic at times, right? CHARLES: Yeah. They're the worst. BEN: Yeah. CHARLES: That's a very polite way of putting it. BEN: [Chuckles] So, that's one thing that's coming down the pipe. Other things, RxJS 6 is in the works. We recently tied off 5.5 in a stable branch. And master is now our alpha that we're working on. So, there's going to be a lot of refactoring and changes there, trying to make the library smaller and smaller. And trying to eliminate some of the footprints that maybe people had in previous versions. So, moving things around so people aren't importing stuff that were meant to be implementation details, reducing the size of the library, trying to eliminate some bloat, that sort of thing. I'm pretty excited about that. But that's going to be in alpha ongoing for a while. And then hopefully we'll be able to move into beta mid first quarter next year. And then when that'll be out of beta, who knows? It all depends on how well people like the beta and the alpha, right? CHARLES: Alright. Well, so if folks do want to follow up with y'all either in regards to the course or to upcoming releases or any of the other great stuff that's coming along, how would they get in touch with y'all? TRACY: You can find me on Twitter @ladyleet. But Ben is @BenLesh. RX Workshop is RXWorkshop.com. I think in January we're going to be doing state of JavaScript under This Dot Media again. So, that's where all the core contributors of different frameworks and libraries come together. So, we'll definitely be giving a state of RxJS at that time. And next year also Contributor Days will be happening. So, if you go to ContributorDays.com you can see the previous RxJS Contributor Days and figure out how to get involved. So, we're always open and happy and willing to teach everybody. And again, if you want to get involved it doesn't matter whether you have little experience or lots of experience. We are always willing to show you how you can play. BEN: Yeah. You can always find us on Twitter. And don't forget that if you don't find Tracy or I on Twitter, you can always message Jay Phelps on Twitter. That's important. @_JayPhelps. Really. TRACY: Yeah. [Laughter] BEN: You'll find us. CHARLES: [Chuckles] Look for Jay in the show notes. [Laughter] CHARLES: Alright. Well, thank you so much for all the stuff that y'all do, code and otherwise. And thank you so much Ben, thank you so much Tracy, for coming on the show. BEN: Thank you. CHARLES: Bye Elrick and bye everybody. If you want to reach out to us, you can always get in touch with us at @TheFrontside or send us an email at contact@frontside.io. Alright everybody, we'll see you next week.

Many property experts out there give different and conflicting advice. How do you know who you should listen to and who you should ignore? Ryan: How do you make sense of the conflicting opinions from a range of experts? This is a great question. I love it. Ben: You can start with this one, man. […] The post How Do You Make Sense of Conflicting Opinions From Property Experts? appeared first on On Property.

What advice do we have for a 21 year old student who is keen to start generating passive income already? Ryan: Jack is asking what advice would you have a for a 21 year old student with still a few years of study but is already keen to start creating passive income? Ben: You’re probably […] The post Advice For a 21 Year Old Student Keen To Create Passive Income appeared first on On Property.

【微信公众平台】搜索“英语口语每天学”，获取独家免费英语学习资料【新浪微博】@笨老撕价格很贵。错误：The price is expensive.正确：The price is high. 速度很快。错误：The speed is fast.正确：The speed is high.正确：The train travels very fast.体重很重。错误：His weight is very heavy.正确：He is very heavy.场景Betty: Did you get the new iPhone?Ben: Yeah. I spent like 12,000 on it!Betty: Wow. The price is really high. Ben: You bet. It (the phone) is really expensive.

Ben Gowell (@bengowell for all you fellow Instagram junkies) is not only one of the most professional guitarist/producer/mix-engineer/songwriters that I know but he’s also one of the wisest people I’ve ever spent time with. I’ve looked up to Ben for years and because of that, this conversation goes all over the map and deep pretty quick. This one’s for those of you out there in need of life advice from a wise older brother who’s really been there (no pun intended)… so grab a Scotch, throw on some quality headphones, and feel free to share a booth with us.    In this episode we talk about: - Realizing that nobody you look up to ever feels like they have ‘arrived’ - EVERYONE had to work hard to be good, no exceptions. Everyone you look up to had to put in time and work in that you didn’t see. -Take chances and live an adventure. Don’t be paralyzed by future planning -The need for healthy confidence -Family: Thankfulness for strong supportive wives, dealing with being GONE on the road while in a relationship and learning to be a parent while being a musician. - “GET ADDICTED TO THE PROCESS!” - battling entitlement or expectation -"The human problem with familiarity": How Ben actively reminds himself to take stock in what he’s grateful for and his thoughts on confusing familiarity with a loss of passion -Welcoming different seasons of life: 'always be open to new seasons of joy'  - “You can’t know things you don't know”  - not wasting any energy or time on regrets - The importance of keeping your word - Practicing awkward confrontations: it doesn’t come easy to anyone Quotes Worth Tattooing from Ben: "You can’t know things you don't know” "GET ADDICTED TO THE PROCESS!” "Always Be Open To New Seasons Of Joy" “Don’t confuse familiarity with a loss of passion"    If you’d like to contact Ben, you can find him on social media here:  Instagram: @bengowell Facebook: Ben.gowell   Recording Location: The Happy Gnome, St. Paul MN Drink: Laphroaig 10yr Scotch For Links, Guest’s Info and Show Notes VISIT: www.thecuriouspod.com

If you want a job that lets you make a difference in the world you’ll likely consider a career in public service.   A government job--at the local, state or federal level--can offer you the opportunity to address issues that matter, such as education,  the environment, and homelessness. You can find positions suited to every interest and skill, from art history to zoology. And the work itself can be gratifying. But getting your first government job can be challenging. The application process usually requires patience and persistence. And managing a career in public service requires thoughtful planning. This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with Kirsten Wyatt, assistant city manager of West Linn, Oregon, co-founder of the organization Emerging Local Government Leaders, and host of the GovLove podcast. Kirsten is passionate about helping talented professionals enter the public service sector and shares her tips for anyone looking to get a job in government. In this 38-minute episode you will learn: How you can explore your passion (and help others) with a government career Tips for building a network to help you transition into a government job New tools and protocols for applying for government jobs What the government interview process looks like Creative ways support your government job search This week’s guest: Kirsten Wyatt (@kowyatt & @elgl50)Assistant City Manager, West Linn, Ore.Co-Founder, Emerging Local Government Leaders?West Linn, Ore. Listener question of the week:  What's the best way to start my job search? Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org. Resources referenced on this week’s show: Nonprofit Organization of Oregon Hatch Innovation Lab GlassDoor.com BestPlacesToWork.org StrengthsFinder Emerging Local Government Leaders GovLove Podcast Josh’s Job Search Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond) - 2016 Edition If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at ben@macslist.org. Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com. FULL TRANSCRIPT Mac Prichard: This is "Find Your Dream Job", the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host, and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List and by our book, "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond". We have a new edition of the book. It's coming out in February and you can learn more about it by visiting macslist.org/ebook. Thanks for joining us today. This week on "Find Your Dream Job", we're talking about government work, how to get it, and how to manage a public service career. If you want a job that lets you make a difference in the world, you're likely to consider a career in public service. A government job can offer you the opportunity to address issues that matter such as education, the environment, and homelessness. You can also find positions suited to every interest and skill from art history to zoology and the work itself can be very gratifying. Getting your first government job, however, can be challenging. The application process usually requires patience and persistence and managing a career in public service requires thoughtful planning. If you're thinking about applying for a federal job, Ben Forstag has a website that you'll want to check out. It uses employee surveys to tell you which agencies are the best places to work for different groups, including veterans and women and others. Not sure how to get started pursuing a career in public service? Cecilia Bianco has a set of steps you can follow to get clear about what you need to do next. Then, we'll turn to this week's expert, Kirsten Wyatt. She's the co-founder of a national association for government professionals. Kirsten will share her advice about how to navigate the government application process and she'll tell you what you need to do to have a successful public sector career. Before we get started, I want to give a big shout out to Cecilia, who last night wowed a crowd here in Portland that was interested in finding work in the nonprofit world. Cecilia, what were some of the ... Did you have a good experience? Cecilia Bianco: I did. Yeah. It was a great experience and it was a good crowd. I think they were really engaged with learning about how Portland is different and how you can get a nonprofit job specifically in Portland, which as you know, is mostly through networking and informational interviews. Mac Prichard: Yeah. Any other key takeaways you want to share? Either from your presentation or your conversations with people afterwards? Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. I think the biggest takeaway for me is that people know they need to network, but they don't know how to get started. I think talking about that with them and giving them practical advice was the most important part of the night. Mac Prichard: Good. Ben, I know you and Cecilia organize these events throughout the course of the year. Can you tell our listeners more about them and how they can learn more about it? Ben Forstag: Sure. Each year, Mac's List organize four different events on our own. They're quarterly based. These tend to be focused around specific topic areas. How to get a job in communications, for example. We also partner with the Nonprofit Association of Oregon and a local incubator group called Hatch Oregon to put on a series of presentations called "Career Pathways to Doing Good in Oregon". That's what Cecilia was speaking at last night and that also happens four times a year. Mac Prichard: Good. Well, visit the website if you'd like to learn more about those events and let's turn to this week's regular segments. Every week, Ben is out there exploring the internet looking for blogs, tools, and podcasts that you can use to help in your job search. Ben, what have you discovered for us this week? Ben Forstag: Mac, I am so excited to share the resource this week. This is a website I found about three months ago, but I've been holding onto it just for today's podcast. I'm super excited to share it. Mac Prichard: I can see you vibrating in the seat. Ben Forstag: Yeah. This combines two of my favorite things. One is public service jobs and the other one is data. As you and Cecilia know, I love data. I love looking at spreadsheets and all that kind of stuff. Mac Prichard: Yeah. You're definitely a number cruncher. Ben Forstag: The resource this week is a website called bestplacestowork.org. This is like a Glassdoor website specifically for federal government agencies. If you are interested in working for the federal government, this is a website you can go to to learn about the internal culture of the government agencies. Mac Prichard: Great. For the benefit of our listeners who might not know about Glassdoor, it's a website that has information from employees of companies who share insights into supervisors' styles ... Good bosses, bad bosses, basically, as well as information about salaries. Ben Forstag: Yeah, and so this is specifically just the federal government. Each year, the Office of Personnel Management, which essentially manages the entire federal workforce, conducts this survey of all federal workers across three hundred and eighty nine different federal organizations. I mean, they ask a series of questions related to employee satisfaction, employee commitment, and other topics that would measure how good of a workplace this is. The questions they ask are things like, "Do you recommend your organization as a good place to work? Are creativity and innovation rewarded in your agency? How satisfied are you with your involvement in decisions that affect your work?" These are really kind of getting at what is the day to day experience for workers in these agencies. From these responses, they assign employee satisfaction scores to each federal agency and then, rank the agencies against each other. Best Places to Work is where the public can go to review all of these scores. Agency rankings are sortable by multiple demographic groups. For example, you can look for the best federal workplaces for women or the best agencies for veterans or the best places for younger workers versus those for more seasoned employees. All these rankings come from the employees themselves saying what their experience there is. Mac Prichard: Were there any surprises when you looked at the data or agencies that stood out, Ben? Ben Forstag: Well, I was actually going to ask you and Cecilia here what you thought of all the federal agencies out there, do you want to take a guess at which agency had the highest employee satisfaction score? Cecilia Bianco: Oh, that's tough. I think I'm going to pivot to Mac on this one. I have no idea. Ben Forstag: Okay, Mr. Government Work. Mac Prichard: I'm guessing it's not the Veterans Administration. Ben Forstag: It is not the Veterans Administration. Mac Prichard: Yeah. Okay. I give up. Ben Forstag: Top ranked for the last three years is NASA, which is awesome. Mac Prichard: Yeah. Ben Forstag: They're loving sending people up into space. That's good. Mac Prichard: Well, I know we may be dating ourselves here because these podcasts will live on for a long time, but if you've seen "The Martian", that is like a love letter to NASA. It's one of the few movies coming out of a Hollywood studio I've seen in recent years that shows government doing a good job, government actually working. Ben Forstag: Hmm. Interesting. I'll have to check that out. Mac Prichard: Yeah. Ben Forstag: Do you want to take a guess at what the worst ranked agency is? Major agency? Cecilia Bianco: Mac, any ideas? Mac Prichard: I don't want to disparage any agency, but- Cecilia Bianco: Yes. Mac Prichard: Guessing and that not being correct. Ben Forstag: Well, I'll go out there. I thought it was going to be the IRS. Mac Prichard: Oh. Ben Forstag: It's not. It's actually the Department of Homeland Security. Cecilia Bianco: Hmm. Ben Forstag: Again, this is all from the employees themselves voting on their own experience. One of the interesting things here is they rank all these different organizations, the large agencies, the mid-size agencies, and the small agencies. One of the things I really liked about this website because I am a dork like that is all of the small little sub-agencies that exist out there.For example, the top ranked small agency, or sub-component, was the Surface Transportation Board, which I've never heard of. The worst rated government agency of all the categories for every demographic group? This one scares me a little bit. The Defense Nuclear Facility Safety Board. Cecilia Bianco: Yikes. Ben Forstag: The folks who are working there are not happy. Cecilia Bianco: That's not good. Ben Forstag: No, it isn't. Mac Prichard: What's scary too is I've actually heard of the Surface Transportation Board. I've worked for three transportation projects in my career, so I'm familiar with that one. Ben Forstag: Okay. If you're interested in working in the federal government, you should definitely check out bestplacestowork.org to get a feel for the culture in each agency. Even if you're not planning on working for Uncle Sam, I think you can find some good value on this site. Check out the methodology section and the questions included in the employee survey.I talked about some of those questions earlier. There's about fifty four of them that they ask. These are the kind of questions you should be thinking about when you're evaluating your own work situation or perhaps, a prospective employer. It really gives you a sense of what the culture might be in those organizations. Mac Prichard: Good. Well, thank you, Ben. Do you have an idea for Ben? You can reach him at his email address ben@macslist.org. He's waiting to hear from you and he may share your idea on the show. Now, it's time to hear from you, our listeners. Cecilia Bianco, our community manager, is here to answer one of your questions. Cecilia, what's your question of the week?Cecilia Bianco: The question today is, "What's the best way to start my job search?" This week, I know we're talking about government jobs, but I'm going to give you some basic and important tips to get your job search started that will be applicable to whatever field you're interested in. Because I speak with so many people who are looking for work, I pick up the most common problems that they're dealing with. What I've been hearing a lot lately is people are starting their job search before they actually know what they really want to focus on and what job they really want to be in. This is making it a much longer and more painful process for them. Mac, I know you talk to a lot of people as well. Have you noticed this? Mac Prichard: I have. I see it not only in conversations I have with people who tell me about their job search, but frankly, I've experienced it myself. Early in my career, I struggled with goal setting and being clear about what I wanted and probably spent far more time than I needed to on different searches as a result. I'm glad you're bringing this up. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. It can make it really hard. My first suggestion to people having this problem is, before you even start your job search, take some inventory of yourself and what you really want from a career. The easiest way to start thinking about this is to really figure out your main strengths and your main goals for what job you want right now. With your strengths, I don't mean thinking about a mental list of your skills, which we see people do all the time. I mean knowing how to talk about your strengths to a potential employer before you start applying to jobs, so being prepared with examples and past evidence that show your strengths rather than listing them off. As you guys know, almost every job on our list is asking for writing and communication skills, but employers don't want to see a resume or cover letter or hear you in a interview just say, "I'm a strong communicator." They want you to show them rather than tell them. If you're prepared and you know your strengths and you know how you can prove them, that's the best way to nail down what type of job you're going to be good at. For this example specifically, you want to really think about any past awards you've received, successful campaigns you've been a part of, if you've increased an online following or even revenue through communications work that you've done. That's one main way to narrow down what your real strengths are is by being able to prove them. Another reason it's important to know your strengths this well is because you want to find a job that you're going to be good at. Ben, you've touched on this in past episodes. Can you reiterate your thoughts on why people should be in jobs that really fit their strengths? Ben Forstag: Yes, Cecilia. I think no one likes going to work and being unsuccessful day in and day out at their job. Any time you can get a job where you're exercising your strengths, you're always going to end up being more productive and probably happier at the end of the day. I talked about the strengths finder test several weeks ago on the podcast and I think what's so great about that is it helps people reframe some of their personality types around strengths and gives them tips on operationalizing how they could use those strengths in the workplace. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, definitely. I've found that to be true in my current job. I know my strengths are the skills that I need to excel at it, so it makes me happier throughout the day as I'm getting things done. Mac Prichard: I'd like to add, Cecilia. I so agree with your point about the importance of showing rather than telling because when people do that, they have a terrific advantage, particularly in the interview process. One thing I've seen candidates do when I've been on interview panels that allows them to show rather than tell is they ask questions about the needs of the employer.They say, "What are your biggest problems?" What happens when that the employer responds is that you get an opportunity to think and reflect about how you have approached that problem before and to tell a story. Not to say, "I've got great communication skills", for example, but "I had an experience like that earlier in my career. Let me tell you how we approached it and how we solved that problem." That's a very unique thing to be able to do and helps you distinguish yourself from the other candidates in the process. It's to your point about the importance of showing rather than telling. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. I think the way to get good at that is by knowing your strengths really well. That's really the starting point. Mac Prichard: Absolutely. Cecilia Bianco: The next thing I want to talk about is really knowing your goals because that is really, really crucial. I don't mean long-term where you want to be in ten years. I mean your goals for your career right now and what type of job you want to be in. You want to think about the company culture that you're going to enjoy the most, the impact you want to be making, and what your day to day responsibilities are going to be that you really want to be in charge of and you're going to enjoy day in and day out. If you think about these things and you have them nailed down, when you go to look at a list of three hundred jobs, it really makes it easier to focus in on the ones that are a right fit for you. When you go into an interview or write your application for a job you know you're the right fit for, we've found that you appear more genuine and you're more likely to get the job because the employers can pick up on that. It's important to be authentic and show you really are the right fit. You're not just saying you're good at this, you're good at that. You really are good at this and you really are good at that and you really want to be at a company that supports a certain type of environment. Those are my main tips for how you can get started. Mac and Ben, anything to add? Ben Forstag: I just want to reiterate your focus on being focused and knowing what you want to be doing for a career. We talk to a lot of job seekers and I completely understand the mentality of "I don't want to close off any options, so I'll do anything" or "I'm open to any opportunity". I understand that. I've been there.At the end of the day, I think employers really want someone who's focused and committed to certain types of work instead of the person who'll do anything or the jack of all trades. It really does shorten the job search process when you do find focus and passion behind that focus. Mac Prichard: Yeah. I think that's a very important point you're making, Cecilia. This idea that you really do need to be clear about what you want because employers will pick up on that. They'll pick up on your energy, as you say. You just make it easier for employers to say yes to you when you focus on your strengths and what you're good at and what your passionate about. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. That's definitely true. Also to Ben's point, when you're focusing really hard on a specific type of job, it makes your next steps easier, which the next steps when you're starting a job search is to target organizations and people you need to talk to that can help you. Really overall, just get some focus before you start. Mac Prichard: Okay. Well, that's very good advice. Thanks, Cecilia. If you have a question for Cecilia, please email her. Her address is cecilia@macslist.org. The segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the 2016 edition of "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond". We're making the complete Mac's List guide even better by adding new content and making the book available on multiple platforms. When we launch the new version in February, you'll be able to access "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond" on your Kindle, Nook, iPad, and other digital devices. You'll also be able to get a paperback edition for the first time. Whatever the format though, our goal is the same. To give you the tools and tips you need to get meaningful work. To learn more, visit macslist.org/ebook and sign up for our ebook newsletter. You'll get updates, exclusive book content, and we'll provide you with special pre-sale prices. Let's turn to our expert this week, Kirsten Wyatt. She is the co-founder of ELGL, an acronym that stands for Emerging Local Government Leaders. ELGL is a national organization with chapters across the country that connects, communicates, and educates about public service. Now, Kirsten writes frequently about government for the ELGL blog. She also hosts the GovLove podcast and serves as the assistant city manager in West Linn, Oregon. She studied politics at Willamette University and earned a master's in public administration from the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. Kirsten, thanks for coming to the Mac's List studio and joining us today. Kirsten Wyatt: Thanks. It's great to be here. Mac Prichard: Yeah. Let's start with some broad questions. Why should somebody consider a career in government? Kirsten Wyatt: Well, I think the thing that's amazing about a career in government, especially local government, is that no matter your interest or no matter your passion area, you can find a job. As I was getting ready for this podcast, I was poking around on the county website. They're hiring dentists, they're hiring engineers, they're hiring levy experts, they're hiring budget analysts. Really whatever your passion is, government has a place for you. I think that's really exciting because then you get to have a career where you're exploring your passion, but you're also doing something to benefit the greater good. To me, a local government career is tremendously rewarding. You have a lot of abilities to learn new things and grow your career and grow your personal self. To me, that's why I've pursued a career in local government and why I always encourage other people to look to local government. Mac Prichard: Good. If someone is at the start of their career or they're thinking about entering into public service, what are some of the issues they should think about as they lay the foundation for a career in state or local or the federal government? Kirsten Wyatt: Well, I think it's important to remember that sometimes you don't just get to walk into a job. This is true in all industry sectors, but in government, often there are going to be minimum requirements related to getting a job. It's important to make sure as you are finishing your college career or building out your resume that you find some ways to get your foot in the door and get some of that relevant experience that government wants you to have when they're hiring. Mac Prichard: Let's get tactical for a moment. What are some steps that people can take to get that foot in the door? Kirsten Wyatt: One of my favorite stories is of people who decide they want to make that jump into government and so they take time on their own and volunteer at the local level, be it on a city budget committee, on a local planning commission. Using that, their free time, to get that experience that local government wants to see on a resume. You may be coming out of undergrad and you maybe have a lot of really theoretical or philosophical perspectives, but you don't have that kind of boots on the ground perspective. Taking some time, your own time, to get those relevant skills is really important. I love hearing the stories about someone who dedicated a year of Tuesday nights volunteering on a historic resources board because they really wanted to become a historic planner or something like that. I think that those types of things take a little bit of effort, but it really pays off in the end. Mac Prichard: I've seen that happen in the world of politics, too, where people who are active in their neighborhood volunteer for a committee and then, end up working for an elected official at city hall. Kirsten Wyatt: Absolutely. That's a great example, too. Mac Prichard: Yeah. What advice would you have for somebody who wants to get their foot in the door and maybe they want to make a mid-career change? Kirsten Wyatt: That's a tough one. I think one thing we've found from ELGL is finding a way to build a network in local government or in government is a really critical way to make sure you're building out those connections, so people can start to realize that the skills that you have built up over the years in the private sector are transferable to local government. That may mean building a network where the city manager of a certain city knows that you are a top notch communications expert. Maybe you've only worked for a consulting firm or a private company, but you're able to take those skills and make that transfer over to government. That's what we really try to promote through ELGL is making those sincere real connections regardless of what industry you're in. If you have an interest in public service, we want to help you make those relationships. Mac Prichard: Let's talk about the hiring process. When I talk to people who are interested in breaking into government whether they're coming out of college or graduate school or they want to make a mid-career switch, they tell me that they're intimidated. The process seems opaque, hard to understand. Break it down for our listeners. How do government agencies hire and what should people keep in mind when they're starting that application process? Kirsten Wyatt: Government hiring processes are horrible, but they are getting better. It was just as recently as two years ago that my own city, we created our first fillable form for our job application. Now, I'm proud to say that our local government as well as many others in the region are adapting a standardized application aggregator called NEOGOV. You can just fill in all of your information and then, use it to apply for many government level jobs. I was listening to your earlier podcasts and I am also a font snob. What I have found in local government that's hard is that they want you to put your application materials into a standardized format. That doesn't give you a lot of room for creativity or to show your flair. It's also aggravating because you may fill out an application for one city and then, you have to go in and fill out a whole other application for another city, typing in the exact same information. You don't get to go and pass out a resume. There's a different process and approach and that's just because government wants to be standardized across all of our hiring processes. It can seem more tedious, I think, than just uploading or submitting a resume. Mac Prichard: Once people ... If they're fortunate enough to live in a community where you can actually apply online or whether they print out a form and fill it out by hand, what are some strategies and tactics they should keep in mind when they do that? Kirsten Wyatt: Well, my number one advice is to understand the form of government that you're applying to. I have seen so many people contact the mayor about a job that they're interested in in a council manager form of government, which is just entirely inappropriate because the elected officials have no role in hiring. Same thing with really wanting a job, but not looking at the hierarchy or the way the organization is structured. When you're making that call to say, "Hey, I'd love to learn more. I'd love to buy you a cup of coffee and talk about this job", you're calling the entirely wrong person. I think that sometimes just having that really basic self awareness of the job that you're applying for and then, how you go about building that connection or that ... Show your involvement with that organization, you really need to be aware of what you're doing because you can just shoot yourself in the foot right off the bat. Mac Prichard: Okay, so don't call the mayor. Kirsten Wyatt: Don't call the mayor. Mac Prichard: Don't call the city counselor. Kirsten Wyatt: No. Mac Prichard: Who might you call? Who would it be appropriate to reach out to? Say you see a job at the local parks department and you're very excited about it. You're Leslie Knope. You want to be there. Kirsten Wyatt: Well, I think, first and foremost, you reach out to your network. Mac Prichard: Okay. Kirsten Wyatt: You reach out to that network you've already established and maybe there's someone that works in the adjacent city parks department. You reach out to them first and you say, "Give me the scoop on this job." Then, once you've realized that it's a really healthy and stable environment, then you potentially reach out if your person in your network advises you to to the hiring manager and just say, "I'd love to pick your brain. Learn more." You also need to be careful and make sure you don't overstep and seem like you're trying to sidestep the actual process that's going on, which again, gets back to why having that network is so important. A great example. In Tualatin recently ... Which is a really well run organization. They have one of the best city managers in the nation. It's one of those places where you want to work. They recently had two jobs come open in a very short span of time. It became really widely known in the local government community before they even advertised those positions. A lot of that is because Tualatin has put themselves into the center of a network where they're sharing information constantly about the work they're doing and the opportunities they have. Once you're able to insert yourself into that network, you're going to find out about things before they're even posted or advertised. Mac Prichard: Networking matters. We had another guest on the show, Kirsten. Jenny Foss talked about applicant tracking systems that are very common in the private sector. These are automated processes that look at resumes or other application materials identifying keywords. Is that a practice in government as well? Kirsten Wyatt: As we become more sophisticated and we're using tools like NEOGOV, it's becoming more possible or more likely that you're going to see an application screening process that's going to look for those keywords that were in the job description. Kind of echoing what she had mentioned in the podcast, making sure that you're tailoring your resume to that job description that's in that system is key. I mean, but that's kind of common sense. You don't want to just blanket the world with resumes.You want to make sure that if you're applying for a specific job, that you're tailoring your skills and abilities to match. Sometimes with the volume of resumes and applications that are coming in, there needs to be a rational nexus between your application and the job that is being advertised. I think that that's just ... That's not rocket science. I mean, you can go through the job description and find those keywords and make sure that you pull out the talent skills and abilities that you have that match those. Mac Prichard: I think that's very sound advice. When I first started applying for jobs in Oregon government when I came to Portland many years ago, I didn't have much success. Someone coached me about the importance of including keywords in my application materials and it made all the difference. I found I started getting interviews after I did that.When people after they've done the networking, they've gotten the lay of the land, maybe they've gotten their name in front of the right people, they've filled out the application materials. Now, they're walking into an interview. What should they expect when applying for a government job? What's different about this world and how can they prepare for it? Kirsten Wyatt: I'm seeing a rapidly changing way of interviewing in local government. I think a lot of this is because we're seeing more of a community interest, especially in certain level positions, to make sure that it's not just that that person is going to fit well with the existing staff, but how are they going to interact with their citizen advisory groups or citizen groups that they are expected to work with? In West Linn, I've seen interview panels that have been comprised just mainly of the supervisor and maybe one or two key staff people. When we get to that department head position or higher, I'm seeing panels, two or three panels, that take a good portion of the day. We're having citizens come in and sit on a panel, we're having peers that have the same position from other local government agencies sit on another panel, plus the department head team really trying to make sure that that fit is there. I think local governments are becoming more aware that when you make an investment in an employee, you need to make sure you get it right the first time because it's a really expensive mistake when you hire a bad fit. I've seen local governments become stronger at building out a panel or an assessment center-type situation that really helps identify who's going to become a key part of the team. I've also started to see for more technical positions, more testing and assessment, which I personally am a big fan of. When I was originally hired as a budget analyst in Virginia, I had to do a pretty extensive Excel test. At the time, I was a little surprised by that. In retrospect, it really helped them weed out people who didn't have just higher than average Excel skills. I'm a big fan of that, using those types of tests for finance positions and things like that. Mac Prichard: Just to go back to interview panels, Kirsten. When you served on those panels or you've talked to colleagues who have led them, what kind of candidates stand out? What do they do to break out of the pack and stand out as a candidate? Kirsten Wyatt: Well, with local government, it is so intensely unique. Every local government likes to think that they are amazing and the only local government that has the best library in the world or the best parks and rec department. They're proud of their history or their historic district or their urban renewal district. The candidates that stand out have done a healthy amount of research.It doesn't mean that they can sit there and recite every fund balance in every account, but it means that they have a real understanding of the community's values. Then, they weave that into their answers. If a community has a strong belief in their historic area, trying to make sure that your answers relate back to that value or that principle that that community holds dear, I think is important. It shows that you've done some research. It shows that you understand the audience that you're talking to. A really easy way for candidates to do that, especially for those higher level positions, is just go to the budget document or the council goal list. Find out what the priorities are for that year and then, really tailor your responses in your interview to what you're read in those documents. Mac Prichard: What kind of role can an online presence play when someone is applying for a job? How can people use online tools to be successful? Kirsten Wyatt: This is something I find very fascinating because for a long time, I think those of us in government felt like we shouldn't have an online presence. That we needed to kind of be these really kind of stiff and boring bureaucrats. Lately, I'm hearing from more and more recruiters that they want to see people who have an online presence that reflects their passion and their interest in public service. One recruiter even told me that they'll look through a Twitter profile. If you're sitting in an interview and you say, "I am passionate about economic development. Economic development is the most important thing and that's why I want this job." Then, they look at your Twitter feed and they realize that all you tweet about are the Kardashians and funny cat pictures, they start to question are you really talking the talk when you are applying for this job. One thing that I've seen and that I've been very proud of from an ELGL perspective, but just also from seeing how, especially younger people are getting their foot in the door in local government, is using platforms like the Mac's List blog, like ELGL, to write and share information about their job hunt or about their career interests and then, parlay that into opportunities. One of my favorite stories, and I know we've talked about Josh before, but a young man out of the University of Oregon wanted to work in government, but he had no experience. He had a ... I think just a general maybe political science degree. He needed to get his foot in the door and so, he started writing about informational interviews that we set up for him. ELGL would set him up with different people in the region and he would sit down with them and kind of pick their brain about their job. It was his chance to kind of get some background about all of the different roles that local government can play. In the course of doing that and writing about it, he had an informational interview with the City of Portland. The woman at the City of Portland was very impressed with his writing ability, also his poise and his presence. She offered him a temporary job and then, that temporary job led to a full-time job. Now, he's getting his master's in accounting and he has a lifetime of local government accounting in front of him, which may not sound that exciting, but I think it's really exciting for him. It's exciting for me to think about someone with that talent and that drive putting themselves out there and then, parlaying that into a full-time local government job. Mac Prichard: I remember that blog series very well. I think it was two or three years ago now. Kirsten Wyatt: It was. Mac Prichard: Can you remind me? What was the title? Was it "Josh is Looking for a Job"? Kirsten Wyatt: It was "Josh's Job Search". Mac Prichard: Right. What so impressed me about it was, I mean, he did the informational interviews and he wasn't afraid to reach out to some high level people. Local mayors and senior people in state government, but then, he went an extra step. He did something I hadn't seen done before, which was to write about it. By doing so, he just grew his circle of contacts and his network exponentially. Kirsten Wyatt: Well, and I think and as you've discussed in your podcast series "Writing Skills" ... It's something that we all want our employees to have, but sometimes it's really hard to measure because when you submit a writing sample, you submit the very best. When you're doing something where you're actively blogging or sharing information using some of these platforms that we have regionally, you're really showing that you can communicate clearly on the fly. That you're a great communicator. We had another guy who graduated from one of the top MBA schools in the nation. He moved out to Portland with no job, which many people do. He took a job as a seasonal worker with the parks and rec department in Tigard. Then, by building out his network, by making sure people knew that he had skills and abilities beyond cleaning bathrooms and mowing lawns, he was able to find full-time work using his network that he built through ELGL with the City of Beaverton. I think, again, it goes to show that sometimes you have to put yourself out there, maybe take a job that you think is beneath you or not exactly what you want. In the process, you're really showing that you're willing to work hard, get the experience you need and then, step into that role where you can make the difference. Mac Prichard: Okay. Well, I think that's a great spot to stop at. Our listeners can find Kirsten online at elgl.org. Also, at Twitter: @elgl50. Again, you'll be able to find these links in the show notes. Thanks for joining us today, Kirsten. Kirsten Wyatt: Wonderful. Thank you for having me. Mac Prichard: Take care. We're back in the Mac's List studio with Ben and Cecilia. Tell me what do you two think were the most important takeaways that you got from our conversation with Kirsten? Cecilia Bianco: I really liked her story about Josh. I think it was a good story to show an example of how someone can show the writing skills that they have and communication skills while building their professional network, which is clearly key no matter what field you're in. Mac Prichard: I like that story, too. I remember reading those blog posts and Josh's personality really shone through. I found myself looking forward to the next installment in the series as it unfolded. How about you, Ben? Ben Forstag: I was excited to hear that governments are modernizing their application systems through the NEOGOV site and other automated tracking systems because I know that government hiring ... It's a really difficult process to navigate if you're not familiar with it. All that being said, even with the new systems, I know it's a difficult field to get into and so, I think Cecilia's point about networking is really important. Mac Prichard: Yeah. I also appreciated her points not only about networking, but just the picture she drew of the process and the different things you could do in reaching out to people, growing your network, how to manage the technical parts of the application. Again, I think I meet people who are interested in working for government, but getting started and navigating that process can be challenging. I think Kirsten has given our listeners a road map for how to move forward. Well, thank you all for listening. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime, visit us at macslist.org. You can sign up there for our free newsletter with more than a hundred new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on our show, you can help us by leaving a review and rating on iTunes. We have almost seventy ratings now and more than fifty comments. That's helped us stay in the top ten in the iTunes career chart. Thanks for listening.

Employers hire candidates that they know and those who are recommended to them by people that they trust. That's why networking is so important: it gets you face-time with fellow professionals and kickstarts relationships that get you known in the community. When you're looking for a job, one of the best things you can do is conduct informational interviews with professionals in your desired field. But how do you find the right people with whom to meet? And what are the takeaways you can expect from these meetings In this episode of Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with Nathan Perez, an executive recruiter and writer who has mastered the art of networking. According to Huffington Post, Nathan is one of the most connected people on LinkedIn, with 30,000 professional contacts. He is also the author of The 20-Minute Networking Meeting, a primer on how to conduct successful informational interviews.    In this 36-minute episode you will learn: How to structure a short but effective networking meeting How to make a good impression in an informational interview How to build and leverage your network The one thing you should never do in a networking meeting This week's guest: Nathan Perez (@NathanAPerez) Principal, 20 Minute Communications Author of The 20 Minute Networking Meeting Minneapolis, Minn.   Listener question of the week: What do I do when a professional connection "ghosts" (disappears) on me? Do you have a question you'd like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac's List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org. Resources referenced on this week's show: The 20-Minute Networking Meeting (Executive Edition) The 20-Minute Networking Meeting (Graduate Edition) Young Nonprofit Professionals Network Network After Work Ignite Conferences Eventbrite Meetup.com Find Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond): The Complete Mac’s List Guide If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you'd like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac's List Managing Director, at ben@macslist.org. Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support! Learn more about Mac's List at www.macslist.org. Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.    Full Transcript: Mac Prichard: This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want and make a difference in life. I’m Mac Prichard, your host and publisher of Mac’s List. Our show is brought to you by Mac’s List, you best online source for rewarding, creative and meaningful work. Visit macslist.org to learn more. You’ll find hundreds of great jobs, a blog with practical career advice and our new book, “Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond.” Welcome to our podcast, Find Your Dream Job. Every week, we bring you the career tools and tips you need to get the job you want.Joining me are Ben Forstag, managing director of Mac’s List and Cecilia Bianco, community manager of Mac’s List. Ben, Cecilia, how are you? Cecilia Bianco: Good, Mac. How are you? Mac Prichard: Doing great; Ben? Ben Forstag: I’m having a great week. Mac Prichard: Good. Every week we bring Ben and Cecilia to you, our audience, so that they can share with you resources and answer your questions. Let’s start with Ben. He spends his week among other things, looking in the nooks and crannies of the internet for blogs, podcasts and other tools you can use in your job search. Ben, what do you have for us this week? Ben Forstag: Mac, this week I bring you more than one resource. Mac Prichard: You’re rocking my world here. Ben Forstag: I know. I’m going to start collecting overtime soon. I’m bringing you 5 resources and these are my own top 5, can’t miss professional networking opportunities. We sell an e-book on the Mac’s List website. That e-book contains a list of 100 networking opportunities. I’m not going to do all 100. That would take forever and it would cost you a whole lot of money in overtime, Mac. These are my own personal top 5. These are opportunities to get face-to-face with people in your community and folks who work in the sectors where you want to work. They are opportunities to expand your network within your field of interest and build relationships that can help you land a future job and/or advance your career. As you know, the one tip we give all job seekers in one word is? Cecilia Bianco: Networking. Ben Forstag: That’s right, Cecilia. We’ll start with #5. Number 5 is the young nonprofit professional’s network, YNPN. This is an organization I’m sure you guys have heard of. They’re very active here in Portland. They have a great event every month. I’ve been to some of their events on the east side, but as you say, they’re a national organization. They are dedicated to training emerging leaders to become active social change-makers. They have 42 chapters in cities around the country so if you’re not here in Portland, I’m sure there’s a YNPN chapter somewhere near you. They have regular networking educational events. It’s a great group of folks and you don’t necessarily need to be in a nonprofit to be a part of this organization. The other key thing with this is membership in YNPN is actually free. You have to pay for some events, but you can be a member and get a lot of their resources for free. You can learn more at YNPN.org. Mac Prichard: Coincidentally, Ben, I was on vacation last week visiting family in Iowa and of course, I met somebody for lunch on my vacation. We were standing in line in a coffee shop and he introduced me to the president of the YNPN chapter in Rock Island, Illinois. Ben Forstag: That is synergy right there, Mac! Number 4 is Network After Work. Have you guys heard of this one? Cecilia Bianco: I have heard of this one. I haven’t attended, though. Mac Prichard: This is a new one to me. Ben Forstag: Okay, so Network After Work is actually a nationwide organization and they host networking events for professionals to attend. They have 50 chapters in cities all around the country. They said last year that they had 1 million people participate in their events. These are typically informal networking mixers held in a local restaurant, a bar or other social venue. They tend to be pretty trendy places where they host these events. They’re paid events, but they’re generally less than 20 dollars. A great way just to meet folks in your community, meet folks, other working professionals and so forth. You can learn more about them at networkafterwork.com. Number 3... this is one of my personal favorites: Ignite conferences. Cecilia, you ever heard of Ignite? Cecilia Bianco: I haven’t, no. Mac Prichard: I’m actually familiar, Ben, with the Ignite presentation. I’ve been to conferences where, I think the custom is you have 5 minutes and 20 seconds a slide and if you get out of sequence with your slide, you have to catch up frantically. Ben Forstag: Yeah. These are essentially TED type of presentations. They tend to be a little bit more accessible, though, and much more affordable. They’re usually only 2-hour long events. The general deal with them is that presenters share their personal passions using 20 slides at auto advance every 15 seconds, for a total of just 5 minutes. I’ve gone to several of these events, both in D.C. and in Portland and they are fantastic. You hear all kinds of cool things. It’ll be a presentation about healthcare right next to a presentation about beekeeping. The important thing is you meet really interesting people there and make great professional connections that you can leverage later on. They have events all around the country and indeed, all around the world. Here in Portland, they’re on the 13th iteration of this. You can find local events at igniteshow.com. Number 2 is EventBrite. EventBrite is not an organizer of events per se, but it’s a technology platform that a lot of organizations use to manage their events. In fact, Mac’s List uses EventBrite to manage our own events. The nice thing with EventBrite is if you go there, you can actually search all the events that people have put on using that technology according to location, subject matter, number of people participating, all this stuff and you can find out a lot of events that you might not have ever heard of anywhere else. I definitely suggest people check that out. That’s at eventbrite.com. Mac Prichard: One of the things I like about EventBrite is once you register, you sign up to attend an event, there’s a record of all the events you’ve attended in the past so if you’re trying to get in touch with an organization or look for contact information or recall an event where you might have met someone, it’s there in your EventBrite account. Ben Forstag: Yeah, that’s definitely nice. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. It’s also a really great tool if you’re going to host an event. It’s one of the best tools out there. We always use it and it’s super helpful. It lets you share the guest list with people and it’s a great tool. Mac Prichard: For a time, we used eVite and then we moved to EventBrite. Why did you make that choice? Cecilia Bianco: I think just because EventBrite has so many more options. It’s more searchable and more people are able to find our event and it’s easier to manage the guest list. It’s just a better tool. Mac Prichard: Good tips. Ben Forstag: Great, so it works both for folks who are organizing events and people who are looking to network through events. My #1 networking tool, this is my personal favorite. It’s an oldie, but goodie. It’s Meetup.com. I know everyone here has heard of Meetup.com. Mac Prichard: Yeah. I’m ancient enough that as you both know, I worked for elected officials on political campaigns and I remember when Meetup.com was defined by the Howard Dean campaign in 2003. That’s how they first came to prominence. Howard Dean has certainly faded from the political scene, but Meetup.com not only endures, but it’s gotten bigger and much, much better. Ben Forstag: Yeah and in fact, Meetup has become a noun in and of itself. "We’re going to a meetup." The site has been around for a long time and it provides hyper-targeted local groups based around personal or professional interests. Literally, whatever your interest is, I’m sure there’s other folks in your neighborhood and your community who want to meet up and talk about that. I did a quick search of the Portland groups. There’s plenty of professional groups that meet through Meetup. If you’re a techie, there’s just about any kind of programming language, there’s a Meetup group. If you’re a vampire, there’s a Meetup group for you here in Portland and you can find other vampires. Participation varies city-by-city, I understand. In Portland, it is a very active network; other cities, not so much. You can learn more about Meetups at Meetup.com. Mac Prichard: I know many of our listeners are in the nonprofit world or want to work with nonprofits and one of the Meetup groups that you can find nationally, including here in Portland, is Tech 4 Good. I’m familiar with the Portland event. It is organized by the staff of the National Technology Education Network, NTEN, which is a terrific national group. It is a wonderful place for meeting people who are interested in technology, social change and nonprofits. Ben Forstag: The nice thing about that group is you don’t need to be a techie to get it. A lot of what they do is educating lay people like me and you in how to use this technology for good. Mac Prichard: Well, thank you, Ben. That was a wonderful list. Do you have a suggestion for Ben? You can write him. His email address is Ben at macslist.org. We encourage you to reach out to Ben and he may share your idea on a future show. Let’s move on. It’s time to hear from you, our listeners. Every week, Cecilia goes through her mail bag or her inbox these days and pulls out a question from our listeners. Cecilia, what do you have for us this week? Cecilia Bianco: This week, a reader wrote in and asked what should I do when someone promises to help me at a networking event and then ghosts me? I have to admit, I had to Google what ghosting was. I wasn’t quite clear. Have you guys heard this term before? Ben Forstag: I have. Mac Prichard: I have, as well. I first became aware of it; I saw it in the New York Times earlier this year. It had a celebrity angle. Apparently, when Charlize Theron broke up with Sean Penn, she according to the Times ghosted him, which meant cutting him off on all of her social media channels and not responding to his texts and phone calls. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, it makes sense. Ben Forstag: Mac, I’m glad to hear that you stay up-to-date on the celebrity news! Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, so ghosting is exactly what it sounds like. It’s when you poof, disappear and you promise something and then you don’t follow through. Maybe you’re ignoring the person. In this case, a job seeker went to an event and was promised help in her job search and then never heard back from the person. I know this has happened to me before and I’ve also been guilty of the other end which I feel bad about, so I know that it’s important to follow up at least twice when this happens to you. I had a student reach out to me through email asking for help. Obviously, I wanted to help her, but we’re busy as professionals. I’ll flag the email and then think I’ll get to it later and forget, so sending a follow-up email is definitely appropriate and sending at least 2 is great. What do you think, Mac? Mac Prichard: I think that’s absolutely right. I think sometimes and I’ve been in this position, too, where I’ve reached out to someone, I haven’t heard and I interpret their silence as rejection. What I’ve learned is by making a 2nd or even a 3rd attempt, I usually get a response, almost always, actually. I know as a job seeker, it’s hard to make that 2nd attempt or even the 3rd, but I think people will be pleasantly surprised by the result. It’s as you say, people get busy and I certainly have been guilty of it, too. I try very hard to get back to everyone in as timely a manner as I can, but sometimes, things fall through the cracks. A reminder is always welcome. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, definitely, and I always suggest waiting 4-5 days before sending a 2nd follow-up just so you can give them a chance. If they have it saved in their inbox, they might respond, they’re just busy, so waiting a few days, see if they follow up and then follow up again. I think probably after 3, it’s time to let it go. What do you guys think? Ben Forstag: I think that’s probably good advice. Mac Prichard: Yeah. One thing I do on my 3rd message, I just do a very brief and I’ll just say, “I don’t want to be a pest, I’ll just wait to hear from you.” I almost always hear back. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. I have responded to this reader and she followed up with me and asked if it matters how she follow up with a person. If they’ve only communicate through email, is it a bad idea to follow up with a phone call? I thought it was a great question because you can definitely get someone’s attention quicker with a phone call, but I was more inclined to tell her it’s a bad idea just because you might not want to put them on the spot by calling when you communicate usually through email. I think it’s better to stick with the mode of communication you’ve used with this person in the past, but what do you think? I know a phone call obviously gets their attention quicker. Ben Forstag: I think you’re right. I think a phone call is more likely to upset someone or put someone on the spot and a job seeker really has very little to gain from upsetting a professional reference or a contact. If they don’t want to speak to you for whatever reason, that’s unfortunate, but you should move on and if you’ve emailed them 3 times, I think that’s sufficient effort to reach out to them. Cecilia Bianco: I agree. Overall, follow up 3 times and no more than that, then let it go, but don’t take it personally because you never know why someone is not responding. Don’t feel bad about yourself and go out and meet new people and get help in another way. Mac Prichard: That’s great advice. Thank you, Cecilia, and thank you for that question. If you have a question for Cecilia, you can email her. Her email address is Cecilia@macslist.org. These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the Mac’s List Guides, publisher of our new book, “Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond.” The Mac’s List Guides give you the tools you need to get the job you want. We show you how to crack the hidden job market, stand out in a competitive field and how you can manage your career. In each of the book’s 8 chapters, experts share job hunting secrets like how to hear about positions that are never posted and what you can do to interview and negotiate like a pro. You can download the 1st chapter of the book for free, just visit macslist.org/macslistguides. Now it’s time to talk to our expert. Let’s turn to our guest this week. It’s Nathan Perez who is the co-author of the acclaimed job searching networking books, “The 20-minute Networking Meeting,” Executive and Graduate Editions. Nathan is an executive recruitment professional and he’s responsible for finding qualified candidates for search engagements and he also speaks and holds workshops nationally on the topics of job search, networking and relationship building for business. Nathan, thank you for joining us. Nathan Perez: Thank you, too. Mac Prichard: Okay. In preparing for our conversation today, I did my homework and I have to say I’m in awe because in looking at your LinkedIn profile, I see that you are one of the 10 most-connected people on the planet on LinkedIn. How did you make that happen? Nathan Perez: Part of the nature of my work is to make sure that I have an expanded network. My role in executive search is actually the 1st step of an executive search process. When companies come to us to hire, they hire us to find new executive leadership for their company. My job responsibility is to devise a strategy as to where and how to find qualified candidates. LinkedIn is one of my tools, one of my primary tools and it’s in my best interest to have a wide network because LinkedIn works on the premise of 3 degrees of separation. That means the more people that I know, the further reach I have globally. It was a matter of reaching out. Once I started reaching out, networks started to expand. People began to find me through the same network. The people that I was connecting to, right, that 1st degree, eventually got to 2nd degree and that’s your extended network. That extended network started to come to me, as well and then the numbers started to double. Mac Prichard: Let’s talk about networking. It’s a word that people who are looking for work always hear, “You’ve got to network, you’ve got to network” and one of the pieces of advice that we give job seekers and I know you do, as well, is reach out to others for networking or informational interviews. Nathan Perez: Right. Mac Prichard: Let’s just drill down on the basics here. What is a networking meeting or an informational interview, Nathan? Nathan Perez: A networking meeting or even an informational interview, sometimes there’s a fine line, but there’s a distinct difference. A networking meeting is all about sitting down with an individual to obtain information. I think lots of times, just the word networking itself brings with it a negative connotation and people liken it to name dropping or that glad-handing, greasy activity, this thing that no one really wants to do so they avoid it. Really, what it is, is just the exchange of information. Mac Prichard: One of the most provocative things that you say, I think, is that you can have a 20-minute meeting with someone and walk away with information and contacts and tips that will help people with their job search. Tell us, how do you do that? Let’s back up. How do you arrange a meeting like that, what do you ask for and what do you do when you walk in the door? Nathan Perez: Often times, as far as networking requests go, time is the deciding factor as to whether or not someone is going to accept the networking request. Even if let’s say, up front you were hoping to request a networking meeting via email, even by phone, because time is the deciding factor, making it brief and succinct is what’s key. As far as the information contained within 20 minutes, what you’re really doing is truncating a process that already exists. For example, if you and I were to sit down for a few minutes and I were just to ask you this one question, “Do you think I should go find another job?” There’s going to be a whole host of questions that come back to me. What do you mean, Nathan? Do you mean should you go find one now, should you go find one later, in your same line of work, a whole different industry change, whatever it may be. What you’re doing is you’re taking all of that information and you’re packaging it into something that’s much smaller and you’re presenting it up front. You’re, therefore, giving that person, your networking contact, context as to what your background is, where you are right at this moment and then you ask a set of questions that are thought provoking. This is homework that you do, these questions that you ultimately ask your contact to further your knowledge. You’re tapping into their expertise and their knowledge to further your own to inform your own job search. Mac Prichard: Like you, I get a lot of requests for people who want networking meetings and I’m always impressed by the people who can come in and do 3 things in 20-30 minutes. For me, a successful meeting is one where someone introduces themselves and shares their story. That’s the first thing they get done. The second is to your point, they ask questions, not big broad questions, but strategic ones about their career goals or their opportunities in the industry and the third thing I see people do really well is ask for contacts. Nathan Perez: I had mentioned that time is a deciding factor. What one should avoid is misusing that time. Mind you, it’s misusing that other person’s time and your own, as well. Going in unprepared, not knowing who your networking contact is, in fact not knowing who their company, what their company does and what their company mission may be because knowing something about that person’s company should tell you quite a bit about that person, as well. Going in unprepared and going in without an agenda or structured use of time is probably the biggest mistake you can make. That’s often times and for anybody who’s listening and Mac, I’m sure you would agree with this; often times, when we accept a networking meeting and it goes longer than we anticipated or than we thought or longer than that person promised, it makes us a little more wary to do it again. If you think about time, if I were to maybe put into perspective of what time looks like, just 1 hour which a lot of folks believe should be the length of a networking meeting; 1 hour adds up very quickly. For instance, if you have small children or if you have younger siblings, you know that there’s not enough hours in a day to take care of small kids. If you were to think of it from a monetary standpoint; if you’re a consultant who charges 150 dollars an hour, for instance, and someone is asking you for a networking meeting and you say yes to that request, that’s a 150-dollar gift of time. If you think about what that looks like over 1 week, 2 weeks, over the course of a month, how many times do you give away a 150-dollar gift? I would say the biggest of them all is probably the misuse of time. Mac Prichard: Yeah, that’s a good point. I also want to second a point you made a moment ago about having a clear ask for the meeting. I, as you know, have worked in government and public policy and politics, and have done a lot of government relations work. There is an old lobbyist I knew in D.C. who said the definition of a failed meeting was one where there was no clear ask and then when people got up at the end of the appointment, there was no homework for the other party. I think again to your point, having that ask and being clear about what you want to get from the meeting is crucial. Nathan Perez: I would agree. Mac Prichard: When you see people who are just superstars at networking and informational interviews, what do they do that makes them stand out, Nathan? What kind of examples come to mind? I know you’ve talked to hundreds, I’m sure thousands of people over the years. Nathan Perez: Right. There’s a handful of things. I think one of the primaries is listening, really engaged in the conversation. Staying present is really key because we all know, we can sense and we can also see when someone is not engaged in the conversation. Listening is one of them. Also, staying engaged and staying present also allows you to keep track of time. We all know innately how much time has passed to some extent or another. Sure, maybe it’s within a few minutes, but we get that, combined with knowing what we want to go in and talk about and being able to present that in a way that’s very clear, concise and simple. The longer time that we take with a networking contact and the more information that we drop on that contact, the more difficult it is for that person to keep track of everything and to keep you in context. By being succinct and brief, we manage to put our own experiences or whatever it is that we want to talk about, that clear ask, into context and into perspective in just a small time frame. That allows for a really powerful and informing conversation. Mac Prichard: So have a clear ask, be succinct, do your homework, look at the web site, other resources before you walk in the door. What are some other tips you have for people that you’ve seen other job seekers and career professionals use to stand out? Nathan Perez: The people that have had the most successful networking meetings with me in particular are those who are informed, not of just my background, but their own. When they ask the questions, they’re asking at a deeper level than something that’s more obvious. For instance, I’m going to take the legal profession as an example. Right now, the landscape of the hiring side of the legal profession and the legal profession itself is changing. Smaller companies are being taken by bigger ones and what that means is that the people who are in the smaller ones either get pushed out or they get enveloped into this big thing, this sort of monstrous machine. If you are an aspiring legal aid or attorney and you were to learn about how this information is working, you can come into a networking meeting and ask very informed questions that gives you a further insight into the hiring practice or the industry itself. That in turn could do a handful of things, one of which is completely change the course of your job search or whatever your networking efforts may be. You may learn something that makes you think twice about what you’re doing, whether it’s for the better or whether it’s just a change in tracks. All that information is good. It’s people who come in really informed with the topic that they’re going to talk about. Mac Prichard: Often when I talk to people about their goals, sometimes people say to me, well, I don’t want to close out my options. I want to be open to everything. I think as we both know, the challenge there is that if you’re open to everything, it’s hard to pursue something and there are just too many doors that are open. As we talk, I know our listeners are thinking about the challenges of and doing networking meetings like this. Let me rattle off a couple that I often hear and I expect you do and get your advice about how to overcome them. What do you say, Nathan, to people who say gosh, I just don’t have any contacts? Nathan Perez: That’s something that I hear all the time. The fact of the matter is, is that we know a lot more people than what we think we do. We just perceive them as they belong in a different bucket. These are my friends, these are my family and these are my neighbors over here. If you take away those titles, they are people that you know. A personal and professional network is comprised of people that we know. If you ever meet someone through one of the people that you know, that person becomes an extended part of your network. I often say when I give presentations and sometimes I get pushback here, I say that it’s not just the people that you know or even the people that you meet through them. Every single person that you have ever met and I’ll explain this in a second; every single person that you have ever met is actually an extended part of your network. That might be dormant, but the moment that you reach out to someone who you’ve only met once and you ask them for help, you bring to life an extended part of your network, but again, not just that person, but any person that you might meet through them. If I were to put this in a really clear perspective, it’s imagine that you don’t know a single soul on Earth but that one person, but imagine that person knows 50 people. Immediately, you have multiplied your network by 51 people. If each one of those people know 50 people, you can see how quickly your network actually adds up to people that you do know and you can also see how quickly you can obtain any kind of information to achieve your networking goals that you can really imagine. Mac Prichard: What is the one thing that you should never do in a networking meeting, Nathan? Nathan Perez: You should never take, take, take. Networking is all about reciprocity. It’s back and forth. It is really not unlike, let’s say when you do a Google search and you send out the query, it sends it down the network. The answer comes back from the servers along the network and there you have it. There’s always give and take. Impressions are everything out there. Perceptions, if perception really matters, they’re real and what you want is to make sure you are giving the sense that you are someone who cares and who is willing to help in return. As I mentioned earlier, time is a gift and when we take it without giving back, that’s not something that’s really forgotten in the long run. Mac Prichard: Finally, what should you do after a networking meeting? What action should they take? Nathan Perez: Keep your network alive by following up. You always want to thank someone for their time. Even though you may have thanked them up front during the email when they accepted the request and even though you had the presence of mind to say thank you again when you were in person when you sat down with them, but after the meeting you want to follow up with them, thanking them again. More importantly, well just as importantly is what I should say, you should follow up with the person who introduced you to that person if in fact, you were introduced to that person through someone else. Mac Prichard: You have a new book coming out. Tell us about it. Nathan Perez: It’s going to be the professional edition. There’s the executive edition of the 20-Minute Networking Meeting and then earlier this year there was the publication of the graduate edition. Anybody who has returned to school or who is coming out of school and knows that they need to network for a job, that’s that book. This one is going to be the professional edition that is every one in between; if you’re not an executive, if you’re not a graduate, it is everyone in between. Over the years, I’ve had quite a few different jobs. That’s everything from a lifeguard to a professional, I have 20 years as a professional actor and writer and I worked on Wall Street at one point. This is going to address all of those people who are not in one of those other 2 categories. Mac Prichard: Nathan, where can people find you online and learn more about you, the books and the services you offer? Nathan Perez: At 20-minute Communications, which can be found at www.20mnm.com. Mac Prichard: Great. Thank you so much for joining us. It’s been a pleasure having you on the show. Nathan Perez: Thank you, too. Mac Prichard: We’re back with Ben and Cecilia. What did you two think of what Nathan had to share with us today? Cecilia Bianco: I thought he had some great tips and I think his most important tip was to be clear and succinct. I know I get some emails that are super long with detailed backgrounds of people just sharing what they’ve been doing and what they want from me. I’d rather just get a 20-minute hey I want to talk about this, can you meet for coffee sometime next week? I think his tips on that were really great. Mac Prichard: I’m a big fan of brevity and I always like the emails that say I’d like 20-30 minutes of your time to talk about A, B and C. I especially like the emails, I know I have to admit I’m a bit detailed about this, that say I could meet with you on these times on these dates, but let me know what might work for you. How about you, Ben? What did you think? Ben Forstag: I thought the most important thing he said was about the size of your network and that your network is bigger than “your professional network.” This really resonates with me because when I think about the network that I’ve leveraged the most in my job search and in my professional life, it’s actually not my professional contacts, it’s the contacts I made when I was working at a summer camp. Those people who I had a real close relationship with, they’re all around the country, all around the world now and they’re all involved in a variety of industries. I’ve been able to use those relationships in a bunch of different positive ways, both professionally and personally. Mac Prichard: I’d agree with that, as well. I recently was trying to identify how I might get in to see someone at a national nonprofit communications director and I discovered that one of my neighbors that actually worked at that organization and not only knew this communications director, but she had gone to high school with this person in Maryland. It was a completely unexpected connection because my neighbor and I knew each other through walking dogs and seeing each other at the block party, but we also had this other connection that didn’t come from LinkedIn or an informational interview. Ben Forstag: I think this brings up an interesting point which is when we start thinking about networks being this everyone you know component, it can sometimes feel daunting; you’re always on the clock or you’re always doing a job search. I think if you’re a novice at networking, it certainly would feel like that. I think the key is you have to make this informal networking and communication and relationship building something that’s just part of your life and something that you’re comfortable with so that it doesn’t feel like a job in and of itself; it’s just something that you do. Mac Prichard: Cecilia, I know you’ve learned a lot about networking in the 2 years you’ve been with Mac’s List. Do you have 1 or 2 pieces of advice for listeners who are just getting started? Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. I think what Ben just brought up is important because I know just right graduating out of college, it’s hard to feel like you need to build your professional network and you don’t really know where to start. It’s important to start with friends, family and rely on your university’s network. That’s one of the best tools you can use when you first graduate and after for seasoned professionals when you look back. Those alumni LinkedIn groups are great and really, they never die. I’m still looking at mine all the time and it’s really active. Looking to friends and family is a really easy way to start so I suggest to anyone who is new to networking, start there because you’ll be more comfortable and it makes it all a lot easier. Mac Prichard: Great advice. Thank you, Cecilia. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, our listeners, for joining us. We’ll be back next week with more tools and tips to help you find that dream job. In the meantime, find us at macslist.org and you can sign up for our free newsletter there with more than 100 new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on our show, you can help us by leaving a review, a comment and a rating at iTunes. Thanks.

Panel Ken Auer (twitter github RoleModel Software) Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Andrew Madsen (twitter github blog) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Jaim Zuber (twitter Sharp Five Software) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 00:57 - Software Craftsmanship Defined 01:26 - Manifesto for Software Craftsmanship 03:43 - Apprenticeship Situated Learning: Legitimate Peripheral Participation (Learning in Doing: Social, Cognitive and Computational Perspectives) by Jean Lave & Etienne Wenger Pragmatic Thinking and Learning: Refactor Your Wetware by Andy Hunt 09:25 - At what level do you consider somebody a “Craftsman”? 10:46 - How can you tell somebody is a Craftsman? Pair Programming 15:14 - Empathy One Love For Nurses 20:36 - Code Retreats, Katas, and Reviews RoleModel Software's Craftsmanship Academy 28:07 - Pairing Partner Knowledge Levels and Learning 31:38 - Professionals and Professionalism 35:26 - Cost vs Value Don't Make Squirrel Burgers Picks Pragmatic Thinking and Learning: Refactor Your Wetware by Andy Hunt (Pete) My Life with Code Reviews (Pete) CodeRunner (Andrew) QuickRadar (Andrew) Rogue Brutal Bitter IPA (Ben) Web Economy Bullshit Generator (Ben) 7 Little Words (Ben) Plants vs. Zombies 2 (Ben) LSNewsletterInvite (Rod) Toastmasters International (Jaim) exercism.io (Chuck) 4 Pics 1 Song (Chuck) Go to User Group Meetings (Chuck) Situated Learning: Legitimate Peripheral Participation (Learning in Doing: Social, Cognitive and Computational Perspectives) by Jean Lave & Etienne Wenger (Ken) Next Week Autolayout with Cesare Rocchi Transcript CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 18 of The iPhreaks Show! This week on our panel, we have Pete Hodgson. PETE: Hello from San Francisco! I can't think of anything funny to say. CHUCK: Andrew Madsen. ANDREW: Hi from Salt Lake City! CHUCK: Ben Scheirman. BEN: Hello from Houston! CHUCK: Jaim Zuber. JAIM: Hello from Minneapolis! CHUCK: Rod Schmidt. ROD: Hello from Salt Lake! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. This week, we have a special guest, and that's Ken, is it Auer? KEN: That's correct! And I'm in Holly Springs, North Carolina. CHUCK: Awesome. We brought you on the show today to talk about “Software Craftsmanship”. KEN: Good! That's what I came for! CHUCK: Oh, good! BEN: You mean cowboy coding? CHUCK: [Laughs] Cowboy coding… KEN: Not at all. CHUCK: [Laughs] Don't make him get his gun. BEN: [Chuckles] CHUCK: Do you want to just explain what Software Craftsmanship is? KEN: In a nutshell, I would say caring about the craft and what you're doing and how you're building yourself with. I tend to come from the school that Software Craftsmanship as opposed to the people who software craftsman and impress other people [unclear]. CHUCK: [Laughs] I like that. I know a lot of the latter. I know a few other former, too. I've talked to few people about Software Craftsmanship before. The one that comes to mind first off is Micah Martin who's Uncle Bob's son over at 8th Light. When I talked to him, he actually mentioned the Manifesto for Software Craftsmanship. Is that something that you try and stand by? And, is there a lot of culture and (I'm trying to think of what the right word is), sort of like the Agile Manifesto where there's all of this extra stuff around it. Does the Software Craftsmanship kind of have that as well? KEN: I think, what are in the Software Craftsmanship Manifesto, if I understand it right because I wasn't there when they put it up, it's really just about software people that are often just get them treated like mushrooms; shelved in the dark in the corner if they don't, and hopefully they go out. The whole idea was, “This is something that we should be proud of and do well.

Panel Ken Auer (twitter github RoleModel Software) Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Andrew Madsen (twitter github blog) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Jaim Zuber (twitter Sharp Five Software) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 00:57 - Software Craftsmanship Defined 01:26 - Manifesto for Software Craftsmanship 03:43 - Apprenticeship Situated Learning: Legitimate Peripheral Participation (Learning in Doing: Social, Cognitive and Computational Perspectives) by Jean Lave & Etienne Wenger Pragmatic Thinking and Learning: Refactor Your Wetware by Andy Hunt 09:25 - At what level do you consider somebody a “Craftsman”? 10:46 - How can you tell somebody is a Craftsman? Pair Programming 15:14 - Empathy One Love For Nurses 20:36 - Code Retreats, Katas, and Reviews RoleModel Software’s Craftsmanship Academy 28:07 - Pairing Partner Knowledge Levels and Learning 31:38 - Professionals and Professionalism 35:26 - Cost vs Value Don't Make Squirrel Burgers Picks Pragmatic Thinking and Learning: Refactor Your Wetware by Andy Hunt (Pete) My Life with Code Reviews (Pete) CodeRunner (Andrew) QuickRadar (Andrew) Rogue Brutal Bitter IPA (Ben) Web Economy Bullshit Generator (Ben) 7 Little Words (Ben) Plants vs. Zombies 2 (Ben) LSNewsletterInvite (Rod) Toastmasters International (Jaim) exercism.io (Chuck) 4 Pics 1 Song (Chuck) Go to User Group Meetings (Chuck) Situated Learning: Legitimate Peripheral Participation (Learning in Doing: Social, Cognitive and Computational Perspectives) by Jean Lave & Etienne Wenger (Ken) Next Week Autolayout with Cesare Rocchi Transcript CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 18 of The iPhreaks Show! This week on our panel, we have Pete Hodgson. PETE: Hello from San Francisco! I can’t think of anything funny to say. CHUCK: Andrew Madsen. ANDREW: Hi from Salt Lake City! CHUCK: Ben Scheirman. BEN: Hello from Houston! CHUCK: Jaim Zuber. JAIM: Hello from Minneapolis! CHUCK: Rod Schmidt. ROD: Hello from Salt Lake! CHUCK: I’m Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. This week, we have a special guest, and that’s Ken, is it Auer? KEN: That’s correct! And I’m in Holly Springs, North Carolina. CHUCK: Awesome. We brought you on the show today to talk about “Software Craftsmanship”. KEN: Good! That’s what I came for! CHUCK: Oh, good! BEN: You mean cowboy coding? CHUCK: [Laughs] Cowboy coding… KEN: Not at all. CHUCK: [Laughs] Don’t make him get his gun. BEN: [Chuckles] CHUCK: Do you want to just explain what Software Craftsmanship is? KEN: In a nutshell, I would say caring about the craft and what you’re doing and how you’re building yourself with. I tend to come from the school that Software Craftsmanship as opposed to the people who software craftsman and impress other people [unclear]. CHUCK: [Laughs] I like that. I know a lot of the latter. I know a few other former, too. I’ve talked to few people about Software Craftsmanship before. The one that comes to mind first off is Micah Martin who’s Uncle Bob’s son over at 8th Light. When I talked to him, he actually mentioned the Manifesto for Software Craftsmanship. Is that something that you try and stand by? And, is there a lot of culture and (I’m trying to think of what the right word is), sort of like the Agile Manifesto where there’s all of this extra stuff around it. Does the Software Craftsmanship kind of have that as well? KEN: I think, what are in the Software Craftsmanship Manifesto, if I understand it right because I wasn’t there when they put it up, it’s really just about software people that are often just get them treated like mushrooms; shelved in the dark in the corner if they don’t, and hopefully they go out. The whole idea was, “This is something that we should be proud of and do well.

Panel Jaim Zuber (twitter Sharp Five Software) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Andrew Madsen (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:10 - Jaim Zuber Introduction 02:15 - Integrating somebody else’s code into your project without using Cocoapods Dragging & dropping source files Static Library Approach Frameworks Circumventing 10:38 - Cocoapods Libraries Cocoa Controls 12:37 - Frequently Used Pods AFNetworking RestKit ocmock Kiwi SVProgressHUD BlocksKit 15:29 - Getting a Pod into a Library or Application Versioning Multiple Targets Specifying a Path to a Repository Handling Multiple Platforms 28:07 - RubyMotion and Cocoapods motion-cocoapods 29:29 - Using Cocoapods on Client Work 30:08 - Testing 32:17 - Creating Your Own Pods Hosting Dependencies Picks Objective-C Modules (Andrew) UTAsync (Jaim) CocoaPods Xcode Plugin (Rod) VVDocumenter (Rod) CocoaDocs (Ben) cocoapods-xcode-plugin (Ben) Getting Things Done by David Allen (Chuck) Omnifocus (Chuck) Next Week The Developer Portal Transcript [This show is sponsored by The Pragmatic Studio. The Pragmatic Studio has been teaching iOS development since November of 2008. They have a 4-day hands-on course where you'll learn all the tools, APIs, and techniques to build iOS Apps with confidence and understand how all the pieces work together. They have two courses coming up: the first one is in July, from the 22nd - 25th, in Western Virginia, and you can get early registration up through June 21st; you can also sign up for their August course, and that's August 26th - 29th in Denver, Colorado, and you can get early registration through July 26th. If you want a private course for teams of 5 developers or more, you can also sign up on their website at pragmaticstudio.com.] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 15 of the iPhreaks Show! This week on our panel, we have Ben Scheirman. BEN: Hello from Houston! CHUCK: We have Rod Schmidt. ROD: Hello from Salt Lake! CHUCK: Andrew Madsen. ANDREW: Hello also from Salt Lake! CHUCK: And we have a new guest panelist, that is Jaim Zuber. JAIM: Hello from Minneapolis! CHUCK: Do you want to introduce yourself really quickly since you're new to the show? JAIM: Sure, happy to! Independent consultants, I've been doing iOS stuff for about 2-3 years; before that, I did some kind of .NET stuff. Way before that, I did a lot of C++ and C stuff in kind of the past life. But, yeah, I'm doing iOS right now, mobile stuff, and enjoying it! CHUCK: Sounds good! I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. This week, we're going to talk about "CocoaPods". BEN: Yay! CHUCK: [Laughs] ROD: [Chuckles] JAIM: I'm cuckoo for CocoaPods. CHUCK: There we go. JAIM: [Laughs] BEN: I'm a super fan of CocoaPods. I wonder if we have any haters in the audience, or on the panel. ANDREW: Yeah, I'm the hater. BEN: [Inaudible] ANDREW: Not really. BEN: Okay [laughs]. ANDREW: I just don't use it. BEN: You say you're the dissenting opinion? ANDREW: I can do that, sure. CHUCK: I've had people basically say, "Well, it's just like having bundler - bundlers of utility in Ruby for iOS!" I was like, "Oh! That sounds nice." But that doesn't really tell me necessarily how it works. BEN: So can we start off by maybe describing what it takes to integrate somebody else's code into your project without something like CocoaPods? ROD: [Chuckles] CHUCK: Yes. Yes, let's frame the public. BEN: Anybody want to describe this for like, say, a moderately complex library? ANDREW: It depends on how complicated the library is. But at its simplest, you can just drag source code from their project into yours and add it to your project, and that's it. But I think,

Panel Jaim Zuber (twitter Sharp Five Software) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Andrew Madsen (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:10 - Jaim Zuber Introduction 02:15 - Integrating somebody else's code into your project without using Cocoapods Dragging & dropping source files Static Library Approach Frameworks Circumventing 10:38 - Cocoapods Libraries Cocoa Controls 12:37 - Frequently Used Pods AFNetworking RestKit ocmock Kiwi SVProgressHUD BlocksKit 15:29 - Getting a Pod into a Library or Application Versioning Multiple Targets Specifying a Path to a Repository Handling Multiple Platforms 28:07 - RubyMotion and Cocoapods motion-cocoapods 29:29 - Using Cocoapods on Client Work 30:08 - Testing 32:17 - Creating Your Own Pods Hosting Dependencies Picks Objective-C Modules (Andrew) UTAsync (Jaim) CocoaPods Xcode Plugin (Rod) VVDocumenter (Rod) CocoaDocs (Ben) cocoapods-xcode-plugin (Ben) Getting Things Done by David Allen (Chuck) Omnifocus (Chuck) Next Week The Developer Portal Transcript [This show is sponsored by The Pragmatic Studio. The Pragmatic Studio has been teaching iOS development since November of 2008. They have a 4-day hands-on course where you'll learn all the tools, APIs, and techniques to build iOS Apps with confidence and understand how all the pieces work together. They have two courses coming up: the first one is in July, from the 22nd - 25th, in Western Virginia, and you can get early registration up through June 21st; you can also sign up for their August course, and that's August 26th - 29th in Denver, Colorado, and you can get early registration through July 26th. If you want a private course for teams of 5 developers or more, you can also sign up on their website at pragmaticstudio.com.] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 15 of the iPhreaks Show! This week on our panel, we have Ben Scheirman. BEN: Hello from Houston! CHUCK: We have Rod Schmidt. ROD: Hello from Salt Lake! CHUCK: Andrew Madsen. ANDREW: Hello also from Salt Lake! CHUCK: And we have a new guest panelist, that is Jaim Zuber. JAIM: Hello from Minneapolis! CHUCK: Do you want to introduce yourself really quickly since you're new to the show? JAIM: Sure, happy to! Independent consultants, I've been doing iOS stuff for about 2-3 years; before that, I did some kind of .NET stuff. Way before that, I did a lot of C++ and C stuff in kind of the past life. But, yeah, I'm doing iOS right now, mobile stuff, and enjoying it! CHUCK: Sounds good! I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. This week, we're going to talk about "CocoaPods". BEN: Yay! CHUCK: [Laughs] ROD: [Chuckles] JAIM: I'm cuckoo for CocoaPods. CHUCK: There we go. JAIM: [Laughs] BEN: I'm a super fan of CocoaPods. I wonder if we have any haters in the audience, or on the panel. ANDREW: Yeah, I'm the hater. BEN: [Inaudible] ANDREW: Not really. BEN: Okay [laughs]. ANDREW: I just don't use it. BEN: You say you're the dissenting opinion? ANDREW: I can do that, sure. CHUCK: I've had people basically say, "Well, it's just like having bundler - bundlers of utility in Ruby for iOS!" I was like, "Oh! That sounds nice." But that doesn't really tell me necessarily how it works. BEN: So can we start off by maybe describing what it takes to integrate somebody else's code into your project without something like CocoaPods? ROD: [Chuckles] CHUCK: Yes. Yes, let's frame the public. BEN: Anybody want to describe this for like, say, a moderately complex library? ANDREW: It depends on how complicated the library is. But at its simplest, you can just drag source code from their project into yours and add it to your project, and that's it. But I think,

Panel Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:22 - Launching a UIWebView and pointing it to a remote URL Autoplay Streaming over 3G or LTE 03:01 - HTTP Live Streaming AVPlayer MPMoviePlayerController MPMoviePlayerViewController Microsoft Silverlight AV Foundation 11:24 - AVPlayer Asynchronous Key Loading Protocol AVURLAsset Learning Core Audio: A Hands-On Guide to Audio Programming for Mac and iOS by Chris Adamson Key-Value Observing (KVO) Deli Radio AVAudioPlayer 19:42 - Use Cases System Sound Audio Categories Playback Control AVQueuePlayer 32:21 - Core Audio Learning Core Audio: A Hands-On Guide to Audio Programming for Mac and iOS by Chris Adamson Adding effects to audio and video AV Audio Mix Echo 38:51 - Interruption 42:04 - Network Connections Network Link Conditioner in Lion - Matt Gemmell 44:07 - .MP3, .CAF, .AIFF, .AAC 45:32 - Transcoding Zencoder M3U Picks Audacity (Rod) Customers (Rod) The Little Redis Book by Karl Seguin (Ben) MMDrawerController (Ben) MacBuildServer (Ben) OpenEmu (Ben) Reveal App (Pete) Snap CI (Pete) Buildozer (Pete) ThinkGeek (Pete) Commit (Chuck) Candy Crush Saga (Chuck) Mini Golf MatchUp (Chuck) Portal (Chuck) Next Week Web Apps & HTML5 vs Native Apps Transcript ROD: I'd get my Dad a Darth Vader helmet...because he's my father. BEN: Yeah, I got it. [laughter] [This show is sponsored by The Pragmatic Studio. The Pragmatic Studio has been teaching iOS development since November of 2008. They have a 4-day hands-on course where you'll learn all the tools, APIs, and techniques to build iOS Apps with confidence and understand how all the pieces work together. They have two courses coming up: the first one is in July, from the 22nd - 25th, in Western Virginia, and you can get early registration up through June 21st; you can also sign up for their August course, and that's August 26th - 29th in Denver, Colorado, and you can get early registration through July 26th. If you want a private course for teams of 5 developers or more, you can also sign up on their website at pragmaticstudio.com.] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 10 of iPhreaks! That's right, we're on the double digits now! This week on our panel, we have Ben Scheirman. BEN: Hello from NSScreencast.com! CHUCK: Rod Schmidt. ROD: Hello from Salt Lake! CHUCK: Pete Hodgson. PETE: Hello from thepete.net! [Ben laughs] CHUCK: And I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv! This week we are going to be talking about "Audio and Video" in your apps. BEN: So this is where you just launch a UIWebView and point it to remote URL and then you're done? PETE: I did that once. CHUCK: All the games that I play, I have to turn the sound off on them. PETE: I actually did do that once, Ben. BEN: Yes, it's the quick and easy way to do it. PETE: Yup, it was surprisingly good. I discovered, we're going to jump straight into rearcane pit of noise, but didn't let you do "Autoplay" on video; Apple doesn't want you to do that. Can you still not do that if you're using native video? BEN: You can do whatever you want with the native stuff. PETE: Okay. So for the web one, you can't. But this -- BEN: I think it's just kind of the Safari limitation... PETE: Yeah [chuckles]. CHUCK: Every browser should do that. That rise me asked, too. PETE: I think they say it's a battery issue more than anything else like they don't want you firing up the radio to download like 50 maybe, to start offering conserve concept. BEN: Yeah, they have gotten a little bit more strict on the rules for that, and I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head.

Panel Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:22 - Launching a UIWebView and pointing it to a remote URL Autoplay Streaming over 3G or LTE 03:01 - HTTP Live Streaming AVPlayer MPMoviePlayerController MPMoviePlayerViewController Microsoft Silverlight AV Foundation 11:24 - AVPlayer Asynchronous Key Loading Protocol AVURLAsset Learning Core Audio: A Hands-On Guide to Audio Programming for Mac and iOS by Chris Adamson Key-Value Observing (KVO) Deli Radio AVAudioPlayer 19:42 - Use Cases System Sound Audio Categories Playback Control AVQueuePlayer 32:21 - Core Audio Learning Core Audio: A Hands-On Guide to Audio Programming for Mac and iOS by Chris Adamson Adding effects to audio and video AV Audio Mix Echo 38:51 - Interruption 42:04 - Network Connections Network Link Conditioner in Lion - Matt Gemmell 44:07 - .MP3, .CAF, .AIFF, .AAC 45:32 - Transcoding Zencoder M3U Picks Audacity (Rod) Customers (Rod) The Little Redis Book by Karl Seguin (Ben) MMDrawerController (Ben) MacBuildServer (Ben) OpenEmu (Ben) Reveal App (Pete) Snap CI (Pete) Buildozer (Pete) ThinkGeek (Pete) Commit (Chuck) Candy Crush Saga (Chuck) Mini Golf MatchUp (Chuck) Portal (Chuck) Next Week Web Apps & HTML5 vs Native Apps Transcript ROD: I'd get my Dad a Darth Vader helmet...because he's my father. BEN: Yeah, I got it. [laughter] [This show is sponsored by The Pragmatic Studio. The Pragmatic Studio has been teaching iOS development since November of 2008. They have a 4-day hands-on course where you'll learn all the tools, APIs, and techniques to build iOS Apps with confidence and understand how all the pieces work together. They have two courses coming up: the first one is in July, from the 22nd - 25th, in Western Virginia, and you can get early registration up through June 21st; you can also sign up for their August course, and that's August 26th - 29th in Denver, Colorado, and you can get early registration through July 26th. If you want a private course for teams of 5 developers or more, you can also sign up on their website at pragmaticstudio.com.] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 10 of iPhreaks! That's right, we're on the double digits now! This week on our panel, we have Ben Scheirman. BEN: Hello from NSScreencast.com! CHUCK: Rod Schmidt. ROD: Hello from Salt Lake! CHUCK: Pete Hodgson. PETE: Hello from thepete.net! [Ben laughs] CHUCK: And I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv! This week we are going to be talking about "Audio and Video" in your apps. BEN: So this is where you just launch a UIWebView and point it to remote URL and then you're done? PETE: I did that once. CHUCK: All the games that I play, I have to turn the sound off on them. PETE: I actually did do that once, Ben. BEN: Yes, it's the quick and easy way to do it. PETE: Yup, it was surprisingly good. I discovered, we're going to jump straight into rearcane pit of noise, but didn't let you do "Autoplay" on video; Apple doesn't want you to do that. Can you still not do that if you're using native video? BEN: You can do whatever you want with the native stuff. PETE: Okay. So for the web one, you can't. But this -- BEN: I think it's just kind of the Safari limitation... PETE: Yeah [chuckles]. CHUCK: Every browser should do that. That rise me asked, too. PETE: I think they say it's a battery issue more than anything else like they don't want you firing up the radio to download like 50 maybe, to start offering conserve concept. BEN: Yeah, they have gotten a little bit more strict on the rules for that, and I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head.