Podcasts about james like

The following is a conversation with Erin Kenney, the CEO of Nutrition Rewired. Erin is a registered dietitian with a Master's in nutritional science. She's done an amazing job in building a business that helps people take control of their lives through modulating their diet, improving their gut health and ultimately looking after the gut microbiome. Today's conversation was far-reaching. We talked about fibre, We talked about gums, we talked about artificial sweeteners, carbohydrates, fats, proteins, and supplements. This was pretty much an A to Z of what to do to look after your gut health, what works and what doesn't.  I wanted to take this opportunity to thank all of the listeners and supporters of the podcast for everything you've done to help us build the name, and the brand, and to get the message out there around microbiome being critically important and gut health being important for wider body health. Timestamps: 00:00:00 Introduction 00:01:19 How Erin became interested in gut health 00:04:32 Biggest impacts on Erin's health 00:06:09 Stress and gut health 00:09:22 Does caffeine give us energy? 00:14:46 Bone broth instead of coffee 00:16:06 Coffee and our liver 00:16:48 Taking control of gut health 00:18:42 The role of a good breakfast 00:21:55 Lean muscle mass and women 00:23:07 Importance of protein 00:26:32 Role of supplements 00:29:35 Creating an optimal regime 00:32:33 Ketogenic diets 00:38:34 SIBO 00:46:24 Microbiome testing 00:49:00 Vitamin D 00:51:51 Green powder supplements 00:55:19 Heavy metals 01:01:38 Artificial sweeteners 01:05:58 Gum instead of gluten 01:10:18 Palm oil 01:12:20 Nutrition Rewired   Full Transcript: [00:00:00] JAMES: The following is a conversation with Erin Kenny, the CEO of Nutrition Rewired. Erin is a registered dietitian with a master's in nutritional science. She's done an amazing job in building a business up that helps people take control of their lives through modulating their diet, improving their gut health and ultimately looking after the gut microbiome. [00:00:24] JAMES: Today's conversation was far reaching. We talked about fiber, We talked about gums, we talked about artificial sweeteners, carbohydrates, fats, proteins, supplements. This was pretty much a A to Z of what to do to look after your gut health, what works and what doesn't. I really appreciated how simply Erin put lots of complicated topics for the listener. [00:00:49] JAMES: She podcast so that might explain why she was such a good guest. This is an amazing episode for anyone who's wanting to enter into this field, but we also digged into some [00:01:00] technical aspects, and I learned a lot over the course of the conversation. This is Inside Matters. My name is Dr. James McIlroy. I hope you enjoy it. [00:01:16] JAMES: So how did you get interested then in gut health? [00:01:19] ERIN: It was a very selfish Journey for me, I, from a very young age, struggled with digestive issues. They had to take me off of being breastfed when I was a baby and got on to formula fed. And, you know, I was struggling with a ton of digestive issues. And basically they just slapped me with a diagnosis of lactose intolerance. [00:01:42] ERIN: And basically what most of my childhood, struggling with horrible pain, horrible bowel movement. I will honestly say that a majority of my childhood was spent in the bathroom because Of how bad things were with my gut and [00:02:00] I really didn't have much help, you know, it was kind of just, you know, let's watch out for dairy and let's watch out for, you know, triggers and things like that, but it was kind of just, you know, take elodium and, and hope for the best. [00:02:13] ERIN: So, fast forward, you know, as I started to get older, I was a full time athlete, I was, you know, in high school, and really wanted to start taking care of myself. I struggled with mental health issues, I lost my father to his battle with mental health struggles, and it started to connect with me that on the days when my stomach was at its worst, my mental health was also at its worst. [00:02:42] ERIN: And so I was starting to make these connections and, you know, learn and, Spent a lot of time on Google, which, you know, we all know is not a reputable source of information. But nonetheless, I was, I was interested in, in seeking alternative ways to help [00:03:00] support my body. And when I went to college, I didn't really know what I wanted to major in. [00:03:05] ERIN: And I thought, you know, nutrition sounds like something that I could use some support with, considering everything that I'm going through and. You know, the things that I've read online and from there on out, it was just about healing myself. I learned, you know, after being on a decade of medications from birth control to fix the hormone imbalance, from PPI's to address the chronic acid reflux, you know, it was just being thrown medication after medication because doctors were just treating symptoms. [00:03:40] ERIN: So I, I've dedicated all my time to researching about, you know, the gut microbiome and nutrition. And then I was in school for nutrition. And I started following people in the field who were talking about these things, talking about the gut microbiome, talking about how nutrition impacts mental health. I [00:04:00] just lit up, you know, it was, it was like, for the first time in my life, someone was speaking to me and, you know, I felt validated too, for so many years, it's like, oh, it's just all in your head, you just gotta, you know, stop eating dairy, and I have now, Basically built a business on helping individuals get to the root cause of their digestive issues and imbalances because of everything that I went through. [00:04:25] ERIN: So I'm incredibly passionate about what I do and I'm just really excited to chat with you today. [00:04:32] JAMES: So what were some of the key things then as you went along your own journey that made the biggest impact to your own health? [00:04:39] ERIN: I will highlight a very important one that I think a lot of people don't consider and that's stress. [00:04:45] ERIN: It's Uh, you know, there was a lot of stress in my life and I was kind of putting that on the back burner as something that, yeah, you know, I'm stressed, I'm, you know, working out intensely and doing all this stuff, but that [00:05:00] can't, you know, that's not going to make a huge difference. So I really had to prioritize stress as one of them. [00:05:06] ERIN: Diet, as we all know, you know, is incredibly important. My diet was Not supportive of what I needed for my body. I played around with a plant based diet, and I have no shame for anybody who is, who loves their plant based diet, but for me it was not the right fit. I needed a plant forward diet, but I also needed protein. [00:05:30] ERIN: I needed to really hone in on, like, focusing on diversity of what I was eating. I was eating a lot of the same things over and over again. I think a lot of us can get into a rut pretty easily with that. And then I learned, you know, how much diversity our gut needs in terms of the microbiome. So stress, diet was huge. [00:05:50] ERIN: And then I had to address imbalances. I had small intestinal bacterial overgrowth because I was On proton pump inhibitors long term, I had yeast [00:06:00] overgrowth. Uh, so a lot of these things I learned from stool testing and I was able to Going [00:06:09] JAMES: back to the stress then. So how do people identify if their stress levels are too high? [00:06:15] JAMES: And you mentioned exercise, maybe exercise is a double edged sword. If you do too much, it might be actually a big stress on your body. So what are your tools and tips then for stress management? I guess a little bit is good for you, right? But too much is detrimental. [00:06:31] ERIN: Sure. Yeah, we call that eustress, right? [00:06:33] ERIN: It's that, that, that period where you're kind of in that Goldilocks sweet spot where stress is, is beneficial. It helps us grow. It's good for inflammation. But in terms of my own journey, I, I would love to say that I had this like, you know, lovely revelation of your stress and you need to pull back. It was. [00:06:53] ERIN: One of those moments, I say this to clients all the time, it's if you listen to your body when it whispers, you don't have to hear [00:07:00] it when it screams. And I was at the screaming point where I was running seven to ten miles a day and You know, I got to a point where I couldn't barely even walk because I was just like so obsessed with how exercise made me feel, how good it was for my mental health. [00:07:16] ERIN: So I was basically forced in to loving yoga. It wasn't love at first. It was a, it was, it was not love at first. It was a rocky relationship to begin with, but I thought this is the only thing I can do. Yoga is the only thing that I physically can do that's going to support my mental health and I just fell in love with it. [00:07:37] ERIN: And to this day has always been an incredible stress management technique for me because not only do I get to move my body, but I'm doing it in a way that's not inflammatory. I'm doing it in a way where I'm, I'm like feeling everything of what's going on in my muscles and how tight I am and breath, right? [00:07:57] ERIN: I'm breathing. So a lot of times [00:08:00] people will say, I'm just not good at meditation. And I'll say, well, have you tried yoga? Have you tried walking or yoga? Like those are also forms of meditation because you have to focus on your breath. If you're in a down dog position and you're sweating and you're tired, the only way you're going to get through that pose is that you're going to breathe. [00:08:20] ERIN: So meditation has been, meditation and yoga have been incredible assets to my healing journey, but also just the way that I Manage my stress now and also just the awareness of what is my threshold for stress and what are some of the signs that come up for me when I know I've hit my breaking point and become more irritable towards the people that I love. [00:08:45] ERIN: My sleep starts to suffer. My digestion starts to go off a little bit. So these are kind of my. Red flags of, Hey, Aaron, let's check in with yourself. You might be doing a little too much. So are those [00:08:59] JAMES: [00:09:00] the sort of whispers then before the screams, the irritability, the sleep? Yeah. [00:09:05] ERIN: And for females to even males, people think, yeah, changes in hormones, like you'd notice changes in your menstrual cycle or your libido, like those types of things can, can also take a hit when you're dealing with chronic stress. [00:09:22] JAMES: Cause I guess a lot of people think, Oh, well. You know, I'm a little bit tired today. I'll just drink more coffee or I'm a little bit sore today. I'm just gonna train more But what you're saying is maybe you need to just slow down to perform [00:09:34] ERIN: better. Exactly. And I also love to talk to clients about how caffeine actually works. [00:09:41] ERIN: Caffeine doesn't give us energy. It actually blocks these adenosine receptors in our brain. And these adenosine receptors are like those little whispers of us hearing the signal that we're tired. And once that caffeine wears off, those [00:10:00] adenosine receptors don't go away. They're still there to then tell our brain, hey, we're really tired. [00:10:07] ERIN: So I always Tell people that, that you're not giving yourself more energy by loading up on caffeine, you're decreasing your perception of how tired you are, which is allowing you to push through something, whether it's a workout or a long, you know, night at work. And over time, especially your body is going to shut down. [00:10:33] JAMES: As an avid coffee drinker, I'm sort of running through my head, am I drinking? I'm not listening to the whispers, but have you got recommendations then for your clients around coffee and caffeine, like some rules or suggestions in terms of when to drink, how much to drink? Cause that could be really interesting for the listeners on Inside Matters. [00:10:52] ERIN: My number one tip is that, and I say this to clients, you have to eat a full breakfast before you have your [00:11:00] cup of coffee. And when we do this experiment, sometimes my clients will say, after I had, [00:11:10] ERIN: they'll say, I didn't, I didn't even want my cup of coffee after I had my breakfast. And it's because we're not using artificial fuel, right? We're eating. Some nice eggs with, you know, some sweet potatoes and avocado and, you know, we're energized and now we don't have this craving for a stimulant. And I'm not shaming caffeine completely, especially coffee. [00:11:36] ERIN: There's numerous health benefits in addition to the microbiome, but it's, it's evaluating that relationship with it. And so. So I always say, no coffee until you've had a, a, a full breakfast. Coffee does not count as breakfast. I tell them no caffeine after noon. Uh, the researcher, Michael, is it, oh, Matthew Walker. [00:11:58] ERIN: He talks about [00:12:00] metabolism of caffeine and, you know, the half life and how long that caffeine can stay in your system. And You could be laying in bed at night if you had your cup of coffee at 3 p. m., and you're still metabolizing it in the middle of the night, impacting your quality of sleep, and then the cycle just starts again, right? [00:12:18] ERIN: You wake up, you're exhausted, you're groggy, and that's because That's You know, that the later in the day that can impact your sleep. [00:12:27] JAMES: So someone maybe like me who wakes up in the morning and finds a way over to the coffee. I know myself. It just, it's like part of the routine and I kind of love it to be honest, but so someone's addicted to that morning routine and they come to you and they become a client. [00:12:45] JAMES: How do you get them to break that cycle and get into the routine of. I don't know, maybe cold shower and then they come in, they've had their breakfast, then they have their coffee. Is it a slow process or do you just say, right, that's it, cold turkey. [00:12:58] ERIN: I'm never, [00:13:00] I'm never militant with my clients ever because I'm also human and the I also understand that, you know, when we make changes, that they don't need to happen overnight and it certainly doesn't usually feel good to our nervous system or mental health wise when someone says, just cut it out. [00:13:17] ERIN: And now, don't get me wrong, I've got clients that are all or nothing and they just, when I tell them generally what I've just told you, they'll say, forget it, I'm cutting it out. I want to do this, I want to do it perfectly, that's type of person. Right. So when we, when we start, you know, I, I get to know what their relationship is like. [00:13:36] ERIN: I had a client one time and she had this, you know, whole setup in her house. The whole side of the wall was dedicated to coffee. So for the client like that, we're going to say, okay, you know, let's. Maybe switch to a decaf or switch to, you know, less of a serving and put more, you know, almond milk in it to just cut down on the, on the portion. [00:13:56] ERIN: And then we, we work our way towards, uh, maybe after [00:14:00] breakfast, but there's lots of alternative things that you can do to still have that routine. So I'll, I'll just give my example. I drink a bone broth, hot chocolate in the morning and that bone broth, hot chocolate. It doesn't, you know, contain loads of caffeine. [00:14:16] ERIN: It's still got the gut health benefits. It's still bitter because of the cacao. And so I drink that it's got 20 grams of protein and it's warm and it's, it still gives me that so people can find, you know, there's all these like, you know, medicinal mushroom type of blends and things like that. So if you can find something that you like. [00:14:36] ERIN: That isn't that, you know, bursts of caffeine and acidity to your stomach on an empty stomach, then that might help the transition be a little bit easier. Thank [00:14:46] JAMES: you so much for that example. Mark, who's one of the hosts here at the podcast studio has bone broth and cayenne pepper. Okay. There you go. In the morning. [00:14:56] JAMES: Yep. And bizarrely, I was speaking to him on Tuesday because we're [00:15:00] planning for the week and we're talking about you. Um, and I said, cause he was drinking in the same type of Yeti coffee mug as me. And I was like, Oh, nice mug. Like you're one of the good guys. Um, is that a coffee? He explained that no, it was just his bone broth and it's part of his routine to get, you know, great nutrition and in the morning and it's still warm. [00:15:18] JAMES: And as you say, it sort of feels like a coffee, but it's not really a coffee. So. Um, I'm going to go for it. I'm going to start my day with some bone broth. [00:15:27] ERIN: I expect a report back. I'd love to hear from you. [00:15:31] JAMES: I'll give you a report. I can't promise to stop the coffee. That's not the goal. I might go from two shots to one shot. [00:15:39] JAMES: I think two shots to one shot. That's success. You know, you mentioned the health benefits of coffee. It's really interesting. I've had several people come on. So one of them was Professor Debbie Shawcross, who's like a leading authority on, on liver health, basically saying drink more coffee because for some reason it's protective [00:16:00] against, um, cirrhosis and, uh, non alcoholic fatty changes. [00:16:05] JAMES: So there's, there's something in there, isn't there? [00:16:06] ERIN: This, I think there's so many, there's so many asks. Aspects of it. I think, you know, you and I are big into gut health, right? So we're probably gonna always look at it from a gut health lens. And, you know, my scientific brain goes to, well, you know, coffee helps people have a bowel movement, right? [00:16:22] ERIN: It stimulates the liver and digestion. And if we're having regular bowel movements and, and stimulating that process, that's great for the liver, right? We don't want, that's good. You know, sluggish digestion. So just one of the many, I mean, there's, there's antioxidants in there, there's. The polyphenols that feed beneficial bacteria and you know, the liver and the gut are most certainly connected. [00:16:48] JAMES: So could you maybe walk the listeners through some of the other things you try and help your clients with? So you mentioned stress, diet, maybe we can unpack diet a little bit more because that must be huge. We hear. In terms [00:17:00] of. You know, taking control of your health and your microbiome and your gut. [00:17:04] ERIN: Sure. Yeah. As a dietician, you know, people expect that we just focus on food and we, we often do. There's not usually one client that comes in that there's not something diet related that we're talking about and everyone's starting at different ends of the spectrum, right? Some people have no knowledge that. [00:17:23] ERIN: You know, they're not even getting nearly enough protein. They're not eating any vegetables, you know, that, that kind of standard American diet where a lot of processed foods, you know, a lot of refined grains that aren't providing any fiber or nutrition. So there's so many different ends of the spectrum of things that we work on. [00:17:41] ERIN: And then you have, you know, clients who have overgrowth or SIBO, like SIBO, for example, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, and they're eating super clean. You know, air quote clean, where they're not touching your processed food. They're loading up on fiber because they've been told, [00:18:00] fiber, fiber, fiber, if you want better gut health, eat more fiber. [00:18:04] ERIN: And that's making them feel worse. So there's that end of the spectrum where we have to. obviously address the underlying root cause, but we need to simplify their diet, make it easy for them to break things down a little bit, give their gut some rest. And then there's the other spectrum where, you know, I have a woman come to me and she's eating one egg for breakfast. [00:18:25] ERIN: And I'm saying, where's your protein? She said, well, I haven't had an egg for breakfast. I said, well, one egg is six grams of protein. We need 25 or 30 grams of protein to start our day. Right? So there's, there's all these missing links. [00:18:42] JAMES: We've talked about breakfast quite a lot then because as you know, within the sort of wellness health sphere, there's this debate around intermittent fasting and it sounds like you're very much in favor of, you should have a really great nutritious breakfast with macronutrients to set you up [00:19:00] for the day. [00:19:01] JAMES: Is that the case? So you're big, big on breakfast for you and your clients. [00:19:06] ERIN: So for me, yes, I, I've always tried to adopt that my philosophy on my own nutrition and what I think makes me feel best is not going to determine what I think is best for a client. And I think that's really important. I think a lot of, you know, health professionals, it's, you know, they find something that works for them or works for some of their clients and then everyone should do it. [00:19:28] ERIN: Now. Do I often, would I recommend intermittent fasting to people? No, it wouldn't be my first recommendation for the majority of people that I work with. I have worked with clients and most of those clients end up being males who do really well with intermittent fasting. Maybe it's males or oftentimes it's women who are post menopause and they have specific goals, maybe related to body composition and hormone balance. [00:19:55] ERIN: And they found that these practices of intermittent fasting in whatever [00:20:00] fashion make them feel really good. A lot of these are CEOs of companies that like, they love the focus aspect of it during the day. And, you know, so I'm just going to come in and I'm going to work with them and say, Well, if this works for you and you're not, Uh, binge eating at night and feeling like you're deprived during the day and you're getting good nutrition and you're fast, you're feeding window, then I'll work with you. [00:20:23] ERIN: We'll work with where you're at. But the majority of my clients, you know, especially those that are female and they're still cycling, this can really disrupt their hormones. It can disrupt their ability to work out during the day. And so we have to really personalize that if it's going to be part of the protocol and, and the research that I've seen, my biggest concern is the body composition. [00:20:46] ERIN: I've seen the loss of muscle mass be a potential and I think that's a huge issue for a lot of people, right? We all need nice lean muscle mass and if fasting, you know, if we continue to see research that [00:21:00] fasting negatively impacts our lean muscle tissue, I don't love [00:21:04] JAMES: that. Yeah. I mean, intuitively it makes sense, right? [00:21:08] JAMES: You stop consuming calories, you've got no protein intake, therefore there's no amino acids moving around. So it kind of makes sense that your body is going to look for energy. Yeah. And I guess muscle is, is, is a target is probably less desirable than, than fat and certainly your glycogen stores kind of make sense that it forms part of that source of energy that we need. [00:21:32] JAMES: Our bodies are incredible. I'm just on the muscle mass thing. Oh yeah, absolutely. And on the muscle mass thing then, you know, I guess maybe some women listeners might think. It doesn't really apply to me. You know, that's for men that lift and train and work out, but that's not the case, is it? It's, it's just as important, maybe even more important. [00:21:54] JAMES: I, [00:21:55] ERIN: I'm a, I'm not a buff woman. Okay. I, I [00:22:00] get, you know, up to 130 grams of protein per day. And I'm not, you know, what, what people, a lot of women would think I would turn into by eating as much protein as I do. But I will tell you. Some things about me is that I'm very strong, very strong in the gym. I have a good lean body mass My hormones are balanced. [00:22:20] ERIN: I don't have cravings for sugar throughout the day. Those are the things that protein does for us. And so I think we need to understand that from a, you know, biochemical aspect, protein is essential. It is protective. It increases our metabolism. It's the only macronutrient that has a higher thermic effect of food like that. [00:22:41] ERIN: That's incredible. So we, you know, just old school recommendations that always seem to sneak their way into further generation. [00:22:50] JAMES: So, um, how does someone know, I mean, if they're not got the benefit of working with an expert dietitian like you, how do they know if they're on the right track for protein? And in [00:23:00] addition to like the actual macronutrient gram per day recommendations, how important is the source of protein for people? [00:23:07] ERIN: Hmm, that's a great question. So we have two different types of protein. We have a complete protein, which is basically a protein that combines all of the essential amino acids, which amino acids are the little building blocks of what protein is. And essential, meaning our body needs them to survive and to produce the daily functions and live optimally. [00:23:30] ERIN: So that's, that's an essential amino acid. That's a, that's a complete protein. Those Food sources are things like meat, fish, eggs. These are animal proteins. And then you have the incomplete side where we have incomplete, and these are going to be plant based foods. There are a few plant based foods that are complete proteins, but the majority, things like beans and lentils, these are not complete proteins. [00:23:55] ERIN: So they're just missing a few of those amino acids that we need for [00:24:00] essential daily living. Now, this doesn't mean that non complete proteins are not beneficial, but the requirement of how much you would need per day slightly goes up because the digestibility, how able we are to digest these proteins, is not as efficient, you know, if you were to eat eggs or a piece of fish, for example. [00:24:24] ERIN: So my approach is try to get some really good quality complete proteins in your diet and also get some incomplete protein sources in your diet, like lentils and beans and nuts and seeds, if that's something that works with, you know, your individualized physiology. But this idea that everything has to be a complete protein, I think is also, you know, too far left because, you know, bone broth isn't a complete protein, but it's still an excellent source of protein. [00:24:53] ERIN: And I'm still going to have, you know, salmon for dinner, and I'm going to hit my Total, you know, amino acid needs for [00:25:00] the day, if you will, [00:25:01] JAMES: and the total amino acid needs for the day. How does one calculate what they may or may not need? [00:25:07] ERIN: That's a great question. So the amino acids themselves, you could use something like I think chronometer might do this on a very, you know, specific level. [00:25:17] ERIN: I don't know if it goes that into detail, but we look at the total grams of protein as a dietitian, you know, so we're looking for Usually around 1.2, up to two kilograms, sorry, grams per kilogram per day of protein for each person. So the minimum, like the USDA requirements for protein, we're talking 0.8 grams per kilogram per day for a person. [00:25:43] ERIN: Uh, however you need to convert that, but it's what 0. 8 is not a recommendation I use for any of my clients. We're always going above that, especially when my clients are more active or they're looking to optimize their body composition. We're looking closer to like, uh, up to one [00:26:00] to two grams per kilogram. [00:26:03] ERIN: So that's your, that's your goal is to really figure out like what is that number for you based on your body weight and then how can you spread that throughout the day. You know, you don't have to completely spread it evenly, but I usually just tell people to make it easier. Get 25 to 30 grams at each meal and then adjust, you know, add to that to meet your needs and then add snacks where appropriate. [00:26:27] ERIN: But that's a good baseline if they're kind of starting from ground zero. [00:26:32] JAMES: That's an amazing summary of protein. Thank you so much. How do supplements fit into that? And I'm asking you in the context of this minimally processed versus like ultra processed food debate we have all the time. So some people say, Oh yeah, whey protein supplement contains the essential amino acids. [00:26:50] JAMES: Go for it. But other people say, Whoa, it's so processed you shouldn't have it. So what are your thoughts then, um, on supplements and How do [00:27:00] they fit in? [00:27:01] ERIN: I think supplements can be great. I think they have a time and a place and you know, a lot of the time is convenience is, is a big reason, you know, for somebody that has a protein goal of 180 grams per day. [00:27:15] ERIN: You know, meeting that might be really challenging if they're not throwing in some whey protein into a smoothie or a shake. Whey protein is excellent. Yes, it's processed, but so is your oatmeal and your brown rice and your ground meat. Like everything is processed. And if you choose grass fed, you know, protein powder, a whey protein powder with minimal ingredients that maybe just has whey, maybe some, you know, sweetener and something to Add some salt or whatnot. [00:27:43] ERIN: But if you have like a three ingredient protein powder, it's high quality grass fed, and you add that to your smoothie, you're doing wonderful things for your body. So I think it, it really comes into when you see these, you know, those, you know, body building companies always start these protein [00:28:00] powders and it's , you know, strawberry cheesecake or cookie dough. [00:28:03] ERIN: Yeah. And. I used to eat these. I'm not, I'm not saying I've never tried them. They do taste good. They do. They taste just like they say they do, or at least when you're, you know, eating healthy, they do. And, you know, that's when we get into the long list of ingredients. We see, you know, binders and gums and artificial sweeteners. [00:28:24] ERIN: And we see, you know, things that can really not make us feel good, especially from a gut health perspective. So a good quality You know, one that's been maybe tested for heavy metals, things like lead that can be common in plant based protein powders, arsenic. If we get a good quality protein powder, minimal ingredients, uh, high quality testing, ask for the certificate of analysis from the company. [00:28:51] ERIN: Then, you know, you're, you're, you're gonna help yourself out if you're struggling to get your protein intake. Thank you for [00:28:57] JAMES: that. I've, I've got so many things written down to ask, you know, I'm [00:29:00] actually not even sure where to start. Fibers, gum, sweeteners, heavy, heavy metals, other macronutrients. Before I jump into sort of more supplements and sweeteners and the heavy metals, I'd kind of like to. [00:29:16] JAMES: Round off the diet piece with you more generally. So maybe talk a little bit about fiber, um, fruit and veg, talk about carbs and fats. Yes. You know, when you're working with all your clients and for yourself as well, how do you build like an optimal diet? Big question. [00:29:35] ERIN: Yes. No, it's, it's a great one. How do you create like an optimal regime? [00:29:38] ERIN: Absolutely. So we start with again, base, like we kind of find this base for people to start. And that's where the three meals per day comes in. You know, if someone's not used to eating breakfast, we're going to try to get them to start eating breakfast, lunch, and dinner, or we can call it meal one, meal two, meal three, whatever your schedule is like. [00:29:56] ERIN: And at that meal, we're aiming to get again, that 25 to 30 grams of [00:30:00] protein. We want to hit. half a plate of vegetables that are colorful, usually like darker leafy greens tend to be an area that a lot of people struggle. So we try to look for those dark pigments. And then the other portion of that, usually I say like a fist of carbohydrates minimum at your meal. [00:30:18] ERIN: And we try to choose carbohydrates every meal and we try to choose carbohydrates that are more complex. So things like. higher fiber carbs. So if you're looking at a label, you're going to see fiber there. But if you're just in the produce section and you're looking at carbohydrate sources, potatoes have fiber, both sweet and white potatoes. [00:30:37] ERIN: Uh, things like quinoa, plantains, bananas. These are all sources of carbohydrates that are very nutrient dense. If a client's more active, those carbohydrates Intakes might go up. We might be consuming more carbohydrates per day. Um, and then fat is, is incorporated into those meals. We, we try to focus on healthy fats, particularly omega [00:31:00] 3 fats. [00:31:00] ERIN: So things like wild caught salmon, we're looking at things like mackerel, sardines, herring. These are omega 3 rich fats that we have to get two to three servings per week. So we've got three meals per day, protein, vegetable, carbohydrate, healthy fats included. And then, then we kind of go from there. We say, okay, are you working out? [00:31:22] ERIN: Okay, well, we need a pre workout, post workout routine. And how can we adjust there? Um, you know, you're training for a marathon. Okay, your carbohydrate needs go up significantly. We're going to have to adjust that. But once we have that base, you know, and, and You don't have to focus so much on the grams of fiber, although we are aiming for about 25 to 35 grams per day, if you're choosing complex carbs, if you're choosing half your plate of vegetables, then you're likely going to hit your fiber needs for the most part. [00:31:53] JAMES: It's going to happen, right? It's going to happen just by default, you know, because it's quite difficult to [00:32:00] find the fiber on the foods and to figure out. [00:32:04] ERIN: Yeah. And if you're focusing on it, we're [00:32:08] JAMES: sorry, there's a bit of a, a bit of a, a like you. Please continue, please. [00:32:13] ERIN: No, no. I was just going to say, so if you're focusing on getting the majority of your foods from less processed foods, then you're again, likely to hit those fiber goals because you're going to be choosing those types of fruits and vegetables and things like that that just naturally come with, you know, the, the benefit of the fiber. [00:32:33] JAMES: Absolutely. I'm going to just push you a little bit, um, on. Ketogenic diets and people even go more extreme and they have these um, carnivore diets. They're great. And you've been quite clear in your recommendation around you should have some carbohydrate with each meal. So, could we just unpack that a little bit and what some of the, you know, why is that part of your recommendation versus, you know, just eat meat and [00:33:00] veg, for example? [00:33:01] ERIN: Mm hmm. So, the, the main focus there is blood sugar balance and this is something that people think this is a discussion just reserved for people who have, say, diabetes. You know, oh, well, you know, they gotta watch their blood sugar and, you know, gotta make sure they don't eat too many carbohydrates. But the reality is, is we all should care about blood sugar. [00:33:22] ERIN: Blood sugar impacts our cardiovascular system. It impacts our mental health, it impacts our hormones, it impacts our muscle growth and maintenance. So having stable blood sugar throughout the day is absolutely key to optimal performance, energy, all those things that we're talking about. And so being able to get a steady adequate amount consistent throughout the day is going to allow that blood sugar to just kind of have this nice little up and down throughout the day. [00:33:52] ERIN: And we're going to stay within this nice range that the body likes to stay in for optimal health. When you go get your blood work done and you get your [00:34:00] hemoglobin A1C tested, that's your report card of how well you've been managing That blood sugar over the past three months, how well you've been staying within that range. [00:34:10] ERIN: And when you don't eat carbs for breakfast, and you don't eat carbs for lunch, and then you have a carb dinner, you're more likely to see a larger spike in those blood glucose levels. Again, this isn't the case for everybody. If somebody has been on a low carb diet, and they've maintained that, and their blood sugar is great, and they're feeling awesome, I'm so happy for them, and I would support them in that way. [00:34:34] ERIN: But for the majority of us, We have these habits where our carbs are not distributed properly. We're not eating the right amount. We're either eating too much in one sitting, not enough at one sitting, and we're wondering why we're craving sugar all the time, and why we're tired all the time. And if we just got high quality carbohydrates at every meal in adequate amounts, not overdoing it, not underdoing it, [00:35:00] we might find a really healthy balance. [00:35:02] ERIN: And not to mention, the trouble with those low carb diets is the number one symptom is constipation. Because These carbohydrates feed our beneficial bacteria. I probably see 10 to 15 stool tests per week, and any time I see someone come in with a carnivore, keto, low carb diet, they have very low beneficial bacteria. [00:35:30] ERIN: And it is pretty much causation, right? We can pretty much assume that the correlation there is because they're not So, my theory, you know, the, the keto diet, it's originally designed for, for medical purposes, and it's incredible for, you know, patients who are diagnosed with a, a type of epilepsy, and it has, been proven to And, uh, yeah, I mean, I don't [00:36:00] think that the majority of the United States needs to be on a carnivore or ketogenic diet, especially long term. [00:36:08] ERIN: We don't really know the long term effects of eating, you know, a ketogenic carnivore diet. it's, You know, I suspect that a lot of people that have found that they feel so good on those diets could be because they have an underlying gut imbalance, and now they're not feeding it with any fiber, any carbs, and that's kind of maintained their symptoms, so they feel really good. [00:36:36] ERIN: And that's, that's just a theory, it's just my thought, you know, that a lot of people find those diets because they're looking for relief and to feel good, and Ultimately, we all want to feel good, right? But if we're not addressing a root cause, then that, that's a, that's a problem, especially if it, it forces you to be on that restrictive of the diet. [00:36:57] ERIN: I [00:36:57] JAMES: mean, the way I like to describe the carnivore diets [00:37:00] to some people is you're essentially starving your microbiome. Yeah. It's not getting anything that it needs, really. I mean, there's, there's some microbes that can metabolize amino acids, um, and, and maybe some more complex chains and proteins, but it's, as you mentioned, it's really the fibers. [00:37:23] JAMES: It's the complex carbohydrates that they really, truly need. [00:37:27] ERIN: Yeah, there's, there's a few specific bacteria that the few specific bacteria, the Fecalobacterium Presnitzii. Uh, the aphromancia, these are two keystone, I'm sure you're familiar with them, they're two keystone bacteria in our gut. And one of the things that they thrive on is polyphenol rich foods. [00:37:47] ERIN: Polyphenol rich foods are going to be things like our berries, our, you know, pomegranates and grapes and those, those dark pigmented. fruits and, uh, leafy green vegetables, which wouldn't essentially be [00:38:00] allowed on some of those diets. And those are keys on species for protecting our gut lining for protecting us against things like inflammatory bowel disease. [00:38:10] ERIN: So I just, I don't know how you could convince me that a diet void of all these amazing foods and mentally for myself, I could never, you know, that's just. No, it's not for me. [00:38:26] JAMES: I've got a note to ask you about your diet and your routine in this totality, but just like to explore this, this fiber concept a little bit more. [00:38:34] JAMES: So one of the things that you said at the start, which I think was absolutely fascinating and you just touched on that again with people getting relief. I think maybe you're talking about the SIBO and how things are just going a bit crazy and counterintuitively, whilst perhaps in someone who doesn't have SIBO and who's functioning correctly otherwise, fibre is brilliant. [00:38:57] JAMES: For them, who've got too many bugs in the [00:39:00] upper GI tract, maybe fibre's not so good. So maybe you can walk the listener through that and Also, how you help these people get them to a state where maybe they can tolerate [00:39:08] ERIN: fiber again. Yes. And, and this would go for, you know, certain condition as patients who have inflammatory bowel diseases. [00:39:16] ERIN: Well, you know, if they're dealing with a lot of chronic inflammation, again, fiber is hard to break down. And that's part of what makes it good for healthy individuals, is that it's hard to break down. We don't digest a good majority of it, therefore it feeds our beneficial bacteria. But for those who are struggling, those who really find that, you know, they start to eat. [00:39:37] ERIN: a salad and it completely destroys them or, you know, the thought of any sort of vegetable on their plate is a nightmare. Then we're basically going to go forward and do some sort of testing. So the gold standard for the the SIBO is going to be a breath test. We're going to be testing for three types of gases, methane, hydrogen, and hydrogen sulfide. [00:39:58] ERIN: And then we're [00:40:00] also probably going to do a GI map to look at overgrowths in the colon, the lower part of the digestive tract as well. And If that person has a lot of overgrowth, then typically the course of action is going to be some sort of antimicrobial. And that could be either you could go to your conventional medicine doctor and you could choose to go that route, or you could choose to take the more natural route and use things like berberine, allicin, grapefruit seed extract, neem. [00:40:32] ERIN: These are all natural antimicrobials that have been shown to be very effective at, killing off harmful bacteria, both in the small intestine and the large intestine. And it's not just as simple as killing them off, right? We want to figure out what else is going on. You know, are they super stressed all the time? [00:40:50] ERIN: Do they have low stomach acid? Are they on a proton pump inhibitor, which is again, further reducing their stomach acid. We also want to look at the whole picture so [00:41:00] that this doesn't happen again. Cause the number one thing with SIBO is that people have reoccurrence because they just go in. They say, let's kill this off, but they don't address the fact that they have motility issues, thyroid issues, you know, stress that is just like, unbearable, and then they wonder why it comes back. [00:41:21] ERIN: So that's the, that's the big thing with addressing the gut is that we don't, we don't hone in on one specific thing. It's not as simple as like, oh, vitamin D is low, we, we increase it or. You know, it's, it's okay. So how did we get here? This is your gut is like a forest, right? You go into a forest and you just pull one thing out. [00:41:39] ERIN: You still have the whole forest there. [00:41:42] JAMES: So how do you then in your practice help your patients with SIBO? Do you recommend the berberine, the grapefruit extract, that kind of thing? And have you had good success with people? [00:41:52] ERIN: Yes. Yes. So I, those are the herbs that I like to use. Those are a few of the evidence based herbs that have been very [00:42:00] effective with my patients. [00:42:01] ERIN: And I've seen a lot of my clients get better with just a few rounds of these. Some, they do one round and we've addressed everything else and they're totally better. Some of my clients have had to go through two or three rounds of it to really fully get rid of it. But we'll retest it. We'll continually see those levels go down and down and down. [00:42:21] ERIN: And it's just, it's amazing to, to see people feel better. You start to see. Their iron labs start to go up because they start absorbing their nutrients, their vitamin D levels start to go up, you know, it's, it's a fascinating, you know, uh, progression of how people can be impacted by, by SIBO and for so long, you know, the, the, the statistics show that about 70 people who are, who are diagnosed with IBS actually have SIBO and they'll go their whole lives not knowing that because they're just going to say, well, I've got IBS. [00:42:56] ERIN: It's gotta, you know, be careful, follow a little FODMAP diet, and they don't ever [00:43:00] think to look further. And most doctors, some of them don't even, you know, we were talking about belief systems. Some of them don't believe that SIBO is a thing when it's clinically documented. So [00:43:12] JAMES: still to this day, to this day, for sure, it's still not widely accepted amongst the medical community. [00:43:20] JAMES: And some of the things you're talking about in terms of. Using these, you know, natural means rather than the classical antimicrobials. Also, we're just not there yet, I don't think. What's your [00:43:32] ERIN: experience? Yeah. And there's a lot of great doctors out there, especially gastroenterologists. And uh, I can't give you a long list of them, of great doctors that I know, but I can give you, um, you know, some experiences from clients who their doctors are, are really open to, they have a good understanding. [00:43:52] ERIN: You know, they, they see this in their practice every day. Uh, a lot of the doctors that say they don't believe in it, you know, they're, they're a [00:44:00] little outdated, right? They haven't been keeping up on the research. They have not been seeing patients and, and truly hearing them for what their symptoms are. [00:44:08] ERIN: And I think that, that there actually is, uh, a large amount of. Uh, physicians out there who are, are truly taking it seriously and treating and they're very, you know, there's a lot of doctors who are very quick to treat for, for SIGO with antibiotics and they do recognize how important it is. But, you know, it's just unfortunate that there are some out there that are leaving patients, you know, feeling very defeated. [00:44:35] JAMES: And with regards to the herbs that you recommend, is there like, this is the entrepreneur in me now, just my mind's going, is there like, you know, one supplement that has all the key elements in terms of all the herbs that have been beneficial or do you ask your patients while just. Maybe try a bit of the, the grape for effect, maybe try a bit of the berberine and see what happens. [00:44:56] ERIN: Yes, that's a great question. There, there are [00:45:00] formulations of herbs out there that are designed or supplements out there that are designed specifically for SIBO. So they'll usually have a combination of. You know, some of those more broad spectrum antimicrobials, I typically use them in a more isolated fashion because I love using tinctures. [00:45:18] ERIN: I like to try to reduce the amount of pills that a client will take. So oftentimes, you know, it will be like. Three times a day, you're doing your drops of oregano, your drops of neem, and then we'll do a berberine in a pill form. And, you know, we do that for a course of four to six weeks, and then we reassess symptoms. [00:45:35] ERIN: But there are, there are formulations out there. There's ones that are even more broad spectrum that, you know, are gonna have additional things like wormwood in them, and Uh, you know, things that can address yeast and candida, you know, knowing that those things can sometimes coexist, but the benefit of my practice is that I'm able to test with coins and I'm able to see, like, okay, how can we really hone in on this and instead of doing [00:46:00] this broad, you know, formulation, we do something much more specific to what you need. [00:46:05] JAMES: Yeah, my brain was just ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And also, I was wondering That's just how it works in my brain. The, the tests that you do, I'm also fascinated. So I'm, I'm very familiar with the hydrogen sulfide, hydrogen methane, because Um, and terabiotics is actually going to be doing a clinical trial, uh, in the IBS area. [00:46:24] JAMES: So I've been reading all about IBSC IBSD, post infectious SIBO and so on. Um, but I wondered because what you're talking about, it's fascinating, it's, it's a combination of the breath test. It's a combination of the stool test. So do you have providers that you go to and that you trust to give you the right kind of data, or do patients come to you having done a microbiome test? [00:46:46] JAMES: Like at home. Mm hmm. [00:46:48] ERIN: Yes. So the majority of, of what I will have clients do with their providers is have their standard colonoscopy, endoscopy, get their blood work done. If they [00:47:00] can get, you know, the things that I like to see, like the ferritin, iron, B12, vitamin D. Uh, so I'll usually have them do that just because it's covered by insurance, right? [00:47:09] ERIN: We try to save clients as much money as possible knowing that these types of cases can be, you know, more intensive and, and costly. And so the stuff that we will do together, luckily as a dietician, we have, uh, different resources where I have an ordering physician on my team who can order the labs for me. [00:47:30] ERIN: And I've been trained to evaluate and interpret these labs over the past 10 years. And so I get these results, we sit down, we go over them together, and you know, we either work with their physician or just on our own, depending on how willing their, their other providers are. We try to work as a team to help this client get better in whatever way that looks like for them. [00:47:54] JAMES: Got it. Thank you. I just wondered if there was like a. Best in class microbiome testing service [00:48:00] that you just thought was unbelievably good. That gave you so many insights. Yeah, [00:48:04] ERIN: I, yes, much more simple. I will answer that more simply here. So the, I love the GI map. I've been using the GI map by diagnostic solutions for several years. [00:48:16] ERIN: I also love, uh, Jenova. That's another really great one. Um, sometimes that might be a better fit for a client based on kind of their symptomatology. But those are really the two main ones. And then, you know, the breath test, I use the TrioSmart because they do all three of the, the, the breath gases versus, you know, if you go get it done in your conventional doctor, they're likely just going to test for the hydrogen and the methane and they might miss the hydrogen sulfide. [00:48:46] ERIN: No affiliations with the brands. Thank you. [00:48:51] JAMES: Thank you for that. Um, you got quite excited when you talked about vitamin D, iron, and ferritin. Can you just like maybe unpack that a little bit? Why is that so important? [00:49:00] [00:49:00] ERIN: These are basic, you know, labs that should be run for all of us. And I laugh about it because it's so frustrating how it's like pulling teeth with providers that you want to know what your vitamin D levels are. [00:49:14] ERIN: Especially when we're in New England over here. So we're not getting UVB rays from the sun to produce vitamin D on our skin for a very large portion of the year. And also just scientifically knowing that 90 percent of Americans are deficient in vitamin D. Vitamin D impacts our hormones, our mental health, our risk for inflammatory bowel disease, everything. [00:49:35] ERIN: It quite literally impacts everything. Uh, so vitamin D, I always have clients advocate for that. And if it's not done over here in the U. S. as a standard blood panel. Iron is another one. Iron typically is tested, but ferritin, the storage form of iron, is not always tested. And this can tell us a lot about inflammation in the body. [00:49:56] ERIN: This can tell us a lot about our body's ability to absorb [00:50:00] iron. So that one is another one. Especially, I work with a lot of athletes, especially endurance athletes, and they tend to be very low in ferritin. And so, you know, if a provider saw, oh, in 2017, your iron looked good, they're not going to test it again. [00:50:15] ERIN: And, you know, hello, it's 2024. Things can change pretty quickly. So, I like ferritin. I also like B12. Both B12, ferritin, vitamin D can tell us that there maybe is malabsorption going on related to SIBO. So, these are things that are common deficiencies that I see in my practice. You know, we should just be knowing regularly what our values are. [00:50:39] JAMES: Got it. Are there any other blood tests that you recommend for the sort of general person? Um, and I'm assuming you recommend vitamin D supplementation. [00:50:49] ERIN: Yep. If you are deficient in vitamin D to a point where, you know, you're getting into the twenties and lower. You're not going to be able to eat food and get your values back [00:51:00] up. [00:51:00] ERIN: You're going to need to supplement unless you're living in a place where it's very sunny And it's very clear that you've been hibernating and lathering the sunscreen and then you can change that habit But the majority of people in order to get their vitamin D levels back up will need to supplement So that's really important for people to know and you always want to take vitamin D 3 plus K 2 K 2 It prevents us from absorbing too much calcium into our, um, the vascular system, which can increase your risk for cardiovascular disease. [00:51:32] ERIN: So vitamin D3 plus K2, always have that combination together and just make sure that you're advocating for it. If you have a deficiency in vitamin D, you're going to need to supplement. There's very few food sources of vitamin D. And those really aren't likely to move the needle if you have a deficiency. [00:51:51] JAMES: And on the subject of supplements, do you recommend anything else? Like, for example, a greens powder, which are all the rage at the moment. [00:51:59] ERIN: Yeah, [00:52:00] I, I don't recommend those supplements. You know, there, there's, um. There's some out there, you know, there's ones that I've taken that I feel really good on, you know, the, the athletic greens was a big, it, it blew up and I, you know, they sent me a sample and I thought, oh, you know, this is like another greens powder and I'll be honest, I felt really good. [00:52:20] ERIN: You know, I'm not going to lie to people. I felt really good when I took it. And that could be due to the fact that it's basically like a multivitamin. And it's got adaptogens like ashwagandha, which I love ashwagandha. And, you know, it was great. I was taking it for a little while. And then, you know, consumer labs came out. [00:52:38] ERIN: They, they independently tested all of these greens powders. And they found higher levels of lead in a lot of them, which something that just naturally occurs in the soil. You know, plants are growing, they absorb these heavy metals from the soil. And lead is not good for us. As someone might imagine, that getting lead in, in [00:53:00] higher doses regularly, ideally we want no lead. [00:53:03] ERIN: But we're always going to be exposed to some level of heavy metals. But when you take something and you concentrate it down, that means you're going to get a larger dose in a small serving. And so, you know, certain brands that I mentioned, like You know were above the limit that I would consider safe to consume on a regular basis for optimal health And so I wow, you know stopped using that and I you know, I I really caution My clients to be using these powders You know, even if they are passing heavy metal testing, you know, they're, they're not a replacement for food. [00:53:36] ERIN: You know, if someone's really struggling, they might offer some assistance. There are certain fruit and vegetable capsules out there that have passed heavy metal testing, you know, don't have any fillers in them. Um, the brand like Juice Plus, for example, over here in the U S you know, they, they seem to kind of pass with flying colors. [00:53:55] ERIN: So I would say. You know, I think of someone like my grandmother who, you know, [00:54:00] she maybe eats, like, two meals a day, if even that, and she doesn't touch fruits or vegetables. She might be a good candidate for someone to take these fruit and veggie capsules, just to get something in her body, but For the majority of us, you know, we don't need 17 different, you know, powders and vitamins in one sitting. [00:54:20] ERIN: First of all, it's really tough for our body to absorb that all in one. So you've got that aspect of it, where are you really getting all the nutrients out of it? Number two is the heavy metals. And number three is there's typically lots of additives to them, artificial sweeteners and flavors and, and things like that. [00:54:37] ERIN: So I, I don't, you know, I don't recommend them, but I'm sure there are times and places for, for those and in people's lives, but the majority of us should be just focusing on high quality foods from our diet. Aaron, this [00:54:50] JAMES: has been such a, an educational journey for me, uh, in addition to the listener, cause I also. [00:54:55] JAMES: take AG1 once or twice a day and have done for quite a long time. [00:55:00] Also a powder called Vibey Greens. And I had no idea about the heavy metal piece. Just no idea. And to be honest with you, I actually don't know that much about heavy metals and how they can impact on health. So could we talk about that for a little bit? [00:55:19] JAMES: Like How do we know if we're have, you know, if we've got too many heavy metals, what's the health and impacts of heavy metals? And then if there's too many and it's having an health impact, what do we do? [00:55:35] ERIN: So heavy metals. Each different type of heavy metal, from lead to arsenic to cadmium, those are two very those are three very common heavy metals that we typically see in supplements, powders, even chocolate. [00:55:49] ERIN: We see high levels of lead, unfortunately. Big chocolate fan over here, so, trust me, I'm not Nooooo! You're like, you're taking away my coffee and now my [00:56:00] chocolate. No, but what's going [00:56:01] JAMES: on here? But again, my AG1 and coffee, now my [00:56:04] ERIN: chocolate. So again, like I will use AG1 if I know I'm going out and I'm going to have a really long run. [00:56:10] ERIN: You know that that's that's the kind of thing I'm trying to really educate clients on is like I'm not taking it every day But I'm not never using it because I like the way it makes me feel I'm also consuming chocolate regularly But I'm choosing brands that are at least not the highest in lead and I'm moderating my intake But I probably eat chocolate at least three to four times a week. [00:56:31] ERIN: Like I'm not gonna lie. It's just You know, you can't avoid all of these things, but you know, there are some that are avoidable that are just, you know, we're getting too much and that could be impacting certain people. So you know, heavy metals can impact all of our organs. A lot of them can accumulate in our body and it's really hard to get rid of. [00:56:49] ERIN: Some are actually impossible to get rid of. So the kidneys can be affected. The gut can be affected. The liver, right? We can have this buildup of these heavy metals. And then on top of [00:57:00] that, if you have an unhealthy gut, then you're more likely to have these accumulate because if you have that intestinal permeability where things can move from your gut into your blood because you have leaky gut, you're in a, you're in a worse shape to be consuming these heavy metal, you know, containing products. [00:57:17] ERIN: But generally speaking, they have, they have widespread impact on our health from our brain health to our, our organ function. And over time, this can be very serious for people and it's, it's hard to say, you know, okay, look for these symptoms, it's, it's, you know, the, the, this happens slowly. So this could be you show up with dementia or Alzheimer's when you're, you know, 50 years old and you don't realize how much of something you've been consuming. [00:57:43] ERIN: But there's testing that you can do. There's hair mineral analysis testing that can look at heavy metals, which can be really helpful. Um, you know, mercury is another one that will accumulate in the body. And even just reducing your high mercury fish can really help your body, um, [00:58:00] work more efficiently. [00:58:01] ERIN: And then, you know, you can kind of go back to working in moderation versus. Eating high mercury tuna for lunch every day, for example, so this is a very big stressor for me is like we need to think about moderation. We don't need to fear monger people into being afraid of consuming chocolate or, you know, things like that. [00:58:18] ERIN: It's education, making better choices. And then if you are someone who has really poor detox, methylation issues, like MTHFR mutation, poor gut health. We might need some extra support with heavy metals, so we might use certain, like, green algaes to help just pull heavy metals out of your system. Um, we might use things like NACL cysteine, which, you know, helps upregulate glutathione levels in the body. [00:58:43] ERIN: You know, these are things that, essentially what we're doing is we're working on chelating, um, things like charcoal and, and algae, green algae vegetables. And then we're working to support the liver and, and, and all those other Um, up regulation processes that naturally happen in the body and then we [00:59:00] support the gut and we support sweating and we make sure our bowels are moving and, you know, we make sure nutrient deficiencies are addressed and that helps us just ensure that we're, you know, well oiled machines that can handle, you know, the daily toxins that we're always going to get no matter what, right? [00:59:16] ERIN: We're always going to get these things, but how can we educate ourselves, make better choices and reduce our total heavy metal load? [00:59:27] JAMES: What are some of the signs and symptoms that someone might have if they're sort of high and heavy [00:59:31] ERIN: metals? So kidney, you know, kidney issues can be a big one. Um, having, you know, kidney. [00:59:37] ERIN: So if you're doing blood testing or things like that, if you're, you know, consuming a lot of brown rice, very high in arsenic, um, that's something that over time, especially with smaller kids, you know, they're even more sensitive to these levels of arsenic, for example. Um, but, but kidney issues, liver issues, brain, um, if you're noticing, like I said, you know, early signs of Alzheimer's, dementia, [01:00:00] Parkinson's disease, uh, there's even, this is not my expertise, but, um, you know, a lot of dieticians who focus on the autism spectrum disorder, ADHD, um, a lot of discussion around how they have a harder time with detoxification and, and Some heavy metal accumulation. [01:00:17] ERIN: And so, you know, refer to them for more information on that. But I've learned from other dieticians about how that can be, um, you know, a way that these types of things can show up, um, gut issues, you know, you know, heavy metals can really disrupt the gut, the gut microbiome. So. Again, there's not really like obvious symptoms for a lot of people that you would say, Oh, that's, that's gotta be heavy models. [01:00:40] ERIN: Sometimes it's, you know, your body just kind of slowly not functioning optimally and not realizing that your total toxic burden is just too high. [01:00:50] JAMES: Gosh, it just made me wonder, I mean, imagine how many people with autoimmune disease, for example, may actually just be too high in, in these heavy metals. [01:01:00] It's again, I think it's one of these things where the traditional classical medical community probably aren't that interested. [01:01:08] ERIN: Yeah, unfortunately not. And you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a very broken system overall. And, you know, I wish I had, I wish I had the solution. I wish that I could say that I could see things getting better in the future. But I think when you involve finances, when you put money into the, the picture, you know, it, the, yeah. [01:01:30] ERIN: The priority of healthcare, uh, preventative care really just. Yeah, [01:01:38] JAMES: I'm with you. So I'm going to bring us back now to some of the things I've wanted to discuss with you. Um, artificial sweeteners is top of the list. So as a dietitian and expert in gut health, what are your thoughts and recommendations relating to artificial sweeteners? [01:01:55] JAMES: Because I think this is one of the ones that comes up the most when you speak to people. Yeah. You [01:02:00] know? [01:02:00] ERIN: So what are your thoughts? Yeah. So I've, you know, I'

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Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E39 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark, Yucca: and I'm the other one. Yucca. Mark: and today we have a very special episode. We're interviewing James Morgenstern, who is on the Atheopagan Society Council. And so, along with Yucca and myself and a bunch of other people. And so it's just an opportunity to get to know him and ask his ideas about where he sees the community going and how he came to be a part of this community and all that good kind of stuff. So, welcome James. James: Thanks for having me. Yucca: We're really happy to have you, so Well, why don't we get started with. you know how, how you found or came to agonism. James: So, it's kind of a, a, a long journey that started back in like the late eighties like 87, 88, somewhere around in there. And I, I was, I, I was an, an avid reader back then. And I remember coming across like a group of, at a garage sale, this collection of encyclopedias called Man Myth and Magic. And it was like everything supernatural in the cult from A to Z And I got made fun of a bit in grade school and called Encyclopedia Brown and stuff like that because I like, I, because I read encyclopedias. And so I came across these, bought 'em for like a quarter a book with my allowance and read them all. And that really sort of piqued my interest in, in the cult and whatnot. And there were there were articles in there about like, Paganism and, and Witchcraft and Wicca and, and what have you. And so I started seeking out books all of this under, you know, the cover of secrecy because I, you know, grew up in the Midwest, in central Illinois. And all of that stuff was a big no-no. So I. With, I had gone to you know, I grew up in a tiny little town, so we had gone some friends of mine and I had gone with one of their parents into this town, and there was this store in the mall that I went into, I think it was like, it might have been a b Dalton book Sellers, you know, one of those book sellers that's not around anymore. And I found a copy of Raymond Buckland's, Complete book of witchcraft. And I went through that whole thing. It was like a series of lessons. Anybody familiar with, you know, witchcraft from back in that area is familiar with the big blue book. But it went through the whole self initiation ritual thing that they had at the end of that. And that was sort of my start on that path. I started reading a lot of Scott Cunningham. He had, you know, a lot of good material for like solitary practitioners and and whatnot. And later on in my, you know, in my adult life I got involved with a this was shortly after I was married, I got involved with a group in Springfield, Illinois called the Edge Perception Collective. And we put on seasonal public rituals, you know, for the, for the community there in central Illinois. And from there I got involved with the Diana's Grove Mystery School and which was, those folks were fantastic. There's just some really good, you know, kind nice people. And the. It was interesting. They had like a 200 acre property in the Ozarks and, you know, it was beautiful. Had this, it had been a cattle ranch at one point, and so like the edges of it were forested and there was this big meadow in the center with like a seven circuit labyrinth mode into it. That was huge. And they had all these cabins that had built, had been built on the property by the Amish. And you know, they did week long intensives and, and weekend you know, seminars and things like that on all sorts of different topics. I took several like drumming classes there with lane Redmond and, and whatnot. And the you know, the whole time though, like, looking back, I, I realized that. With, in terms of like the belief in like DA and things like that. I was really sort of going through the motions on it. Like, I don't know that I ever actually really believed that, that there were these beings out there. I think a lot of it was me looking for an alternative to what I was in the middle of and sort of, you know, inundated by, and that was, you know, conservative Christianity you know, Midwestern Bible country, you know, kind of kind of folks. And so I, I, I sort of, I moved to St. Louis in like 2000 and really sort of drifted away from all of that and had this big. Spot in my life, you know? A lot of the stuff that I had done previously, even, you know, even being part of the, of this group and that that community all on my own, you know, was all solo stuff. Mark: Mm. James: And a lot of that, you know, took place primarily in, in, in my head. You know, it's the whole like, you know, you develop like a mind palace or whatever they call it these days where you've got this sort of sacred space in your own skull. And that some of that was coping mechanisms and things like that for, you know, mental health issues and, and whatnot. But but I had this big hole and, and, and that lasted a long time. And I moved to California in like 2013 or 2014. At the beginning of 2014. And I remember like, I don't remember the exact year it was, but I was online and on Facebook, and I don't remember if it was like a suggested group or if I was searching for, you know, some sort of online group to join. I've got a lot of, I've got friends out here, you know, on the west coast that are all part of this sort of like spooky dark, you know, like, you know, witchy, woodsy, you know, forest people type community musicians and artists and whatnot. And so, lots of pagan stuff being posted by them and, and you know, that whole aesthetic. So it may have been a recommended group but I found the Athe O Paganism one and I clicked on it and looked at the about page. Read the description and everything, and that seemed like that's, like, that was really kind of where I was at. Like, I wanted, I wanted all the pagan stuff, but I didn't want all of the praying to God's goddesses or offerings to forest, you know, fairies and, and, and things along those lines. so I joined the group and was just sort of a, a lurker for a while. And then I don't remember exactly how I met you, Mark. I think I, it was, you had posted something about where you lived or something along those lines, and I was like, Holy crap. Like, that's, that's, that's, you know, 20 minutes away, 30 minutes away or whatever. and I don't remember if I sent you a message or if it was in a comment or something. Like I don't, the details of all that are Mark: I think he sent me a message as I recall, and we decided to meet for coffee. James: Yeah. But that was fantastic. And then I read your book and like your whole story of how you came to all this. A lot of that resonated with me cuz I'd been involved with similar groups, you know, in the past, the whole church of all worlds. And you know, I wasn't involved with them at all, but I, I was well aware of them and, and things going on with them. And then, you know, I wanted to I wanted to take a more active role in the community because. I don't know. I feel like, I feel like everybody should want to take a more active role. You know, you gotta participate in community, you know, on some level. At least that's how I feel, you know, for myself. And so I, when a call went out for moderators on the group, you know, I, I stepped up to that and and then was a moderator on and off for a couple of years, I think.  Yucca: A few. Yeah. James: yeah, recently, recently, you know, stepped down from that again. And then when the Atheopagan Society started coming together, you know, and, you know, we decided to put together an actual, like, council of people, you know, I, I. Felt the need to be a part of that, you know, on the, on the ground floor. Mark: Mm-hmm. James: don't know cuz I, it's, it's really given me a lot in terms of like, helping sort of fill that hole that I had in my life for so long with not having any sort of like, ritual, you know, or spiritual life, you know, it was, I dunno, it was like, I struggle with I struggle with a fair amount of mental health issues, you know, depression, things like that. And when having that, having a spiritual life and even in my own head now using words like that is, there's a little bit of dissonance because I don't believe in like a spirit world, but I, when I tend to use the word spirit or spiritual, I'm, it's more in the sense of essential. Mark: Mm-hmm. James: spirit being the essence of a thing. You know, and so a spiritual life for me is an essential life. It's a thing that, you know, it's something that's Yucca: mm. James: Um, and the, the, a paganism group online and just the, you know, approaching spirituality from that standpoint has, has helped me out a lot. And so I, I wanted to, to, to try to give back on some level as much as I'm able anyway. Mark: Well, that's great. Thank you for that. Yeah, it's, it's been great for me because you, you are local to get to know you and, you know, become friends. And now of course we have the Northern California Affinity group the Live Oak Circle, and we've been having in-person meetings with a little group of folks. And to me that's just been wonderful. I've, I've really enjoyed sharing rituals with, with a group like that.  James: In person is definitely, at least for me personally, is far more rewarding than, you know, online. So if there's a certain, there's a certain distance that I feel, you know, with online interactions and they, they just doesn't feel as personal and meaningful to me. Other people get a lot out of it, you know, I know that we have like the the mixers and things like that, you know, on Saturdays and like on Thursdays or whatever online. And I know that there are a lot of people who get a lot out of those, and that's fantastic. You know, I think you should get, you should get that community interaction however you can get it. But yeah. Yucca: well, I really love that we've been able to start building both of those kinds of, of interactions right now as, as we're, we're growing and able to do in person gatherings. Both like we did earlier this spring with the retreat and then with local groups and then the mixers and the text communication, which is what mostly the Facebook discord is. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: So it's, it's lovely to see that diversity and people being able to kind of plug in, in the way that fits in in their life and, and their particular needs. James: Yeah. Yucca: and it seems like James, you've, you've been a big part of a lot of that kind of looking out for and caring for and participating in that online component. James: Yeah. Like, I feel, I feel very, and one of the reasons I wanted to be like help be a moderator and stuff for the, for the Facebook group was that I feel like I tend to get protective of, you know, the groups that I'm, that I'm part of. It's all, it's like chosen family kind of, kind of situation. And I felt like being a moderator helped, like, put me in a role where I could be more effective at doing that. Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: because there's a lot of folks that aren't able to sort of stand up for themselves and you only have so much, aside from just blocking people online you've only got so much that you can do in a group if you aren't a moderator. You know, you don't have the ability to, you know, to shield other people from, you know, abuses and things along those lines. And not that we've had a huge problem with. Folks like that in the, our fa I feel like out of all of the Facebook groups that I've, that I've been a part of and all of just the social media groups in general that I've been a part of, the Atheopagan group is definitely by far the most friendly and problem free group that I've, that I, especially with, you know, now we've got well over 4,000 members. Like, it, it, it shocks me on some level that there wasn't, that there wasn't a lot more moderation issues than there, than there was. We just don't get the trolls. I think a lot of that is, is due in part to like our screening process for people, you know, and and just the, you know, vigilance and the community themselves, like, you know, that even aren't moderators stepping up to, you know, Sort of take charge cuz it's, it's, I feel like it's all of our responsibilities to make sure that we've got a nice, you know, safe, accommodating, friendly community, you know, to be a part of. You know, and every, every group is gonna have issues, but I feel like our group is, is always working on those, you know, when something comes up, when someone brings something to our attention, something was problematic or something that we, that needs to be addressed that we're, that we, we work on it. I feel like that effort is an honest one and that, you know, and that's important. But but yeah, it's by far the, the best group I've been a part of. And I, and I think that speaks a lot for the people that are involved. Mark: I agree. Yeah, I mean, I've, I continue to be amazed by the quality of the community that's come together online, around aop, Paganism, and As you say, with more than 4,000 members, you would imagine that there would be more conflict. And it's not like there's group think because we have really interesting conversations about lots of different things and people have varying perspectives on a variety of different things. But there's a civility and a a fundamental assumption of good intention on the part of one another that I think is really rare for Facebook. I mean, I don't even go to my main Facebook feed anymore. I just hang out in the atheopagan. James: yeah, yeah. And it was, it was really great for me at the retreat to get to meet some of those folks in person. you know, cuz you see a name, you see a name and like an icon on online and I don't know, for me that's Yucca: A real animal person  James: Yeah,  Yucca: really right there in front of you. James: cuz like online there's a, like, I feel like there is sort of a certain degree of anonymity that's necessary because it can just be a dangerous place. So I don't fault people for not putting pictures of themselves up as like their Facebook photo or whatever. You know, I didn't do it for the longest time. Uh uh, now I don't really care. So it's whatever. But but it's nice being able to put a face to, you know, conversations that I've had with folks and, and things along those. Mark: So, I have kind of a two part question, I guess, for you, James. The first one is so what do you see your role as being on the Ethiopia Pagan Society Council? What, what do you see as, you know, what are your responsibilities there? What is, what do you see yourself as doing for the community there? And then the second part of the question is what about the future? What, what sorts of things do you see the society being able to do to foster this community or support it or train it or, you know, whatever. What, what's your vision there? James: I think in terms of my, my role, like, I feel like I, I try to represent the, the greater community as a whole. Mark: Mm. James: Take into consideration, like when we're making decisions and things like that, the needs of, of, of the community as it's been sort of represented to me by my interactions with people on Facebook, you know, in the Facebook group. And, and to a far, far lesser degree, the, the discord sort of, cuz I, I, I started the, that Discord server I don't, a couple years ago or whatever. And Discord is not my, it's not my thing. It's, you know, it's some people that's totally their jam and that's, and they prefer that over everything else and that's totally fine. It's just, it was never really my thing, but there was a call for it online and so I just, I had used it previously for like some gaming. And so I was like, well, you know, I'll start a server and we'll see how that happens and how that works. And now it, you know, it's got a, I think a couple hundred people on it. Mark: I think about 500 Yucca: Yeah, James: is it really? Mark: Yeah. Yucca: It's got some great stuff. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. James: I, yeah, like I said, it's, it is wasn't really my thing. I am not a tech savvy person, so, you know, there were got all these people that jumped on it, that were doing Discord stuff all the time and asking me as a, you know, as like the admin there, you know, Oh, can we do this? Can we do that? And it's like, I have no idea how to do those things. So and I don't have a whole lot of time to learn how to do those things. So like, I, that's a, yeah, that's a whole nother change. But in terms of like my role and what I, you know, what I seem like my responsibilities being like, I, I don't know. I. I think everybody, I think every group and, and it hasn't been a thing that I, that has been something that I feel like I've needed to worry about because our, our group and our organization has, it's worked a lot differently than a lot of other groups that I, that I'm aware of in the Pagan community and not so many that I've been a direct part of in, in terms of like decision making groups and whatnot. But I don't know. There was sort of this idea in my head at one point of like, being kind of a watchdog and making sure that things didn't start going down like a hierarchical you know, sort of problematic path. Often happens with those sort of council type groups in various PE communities. Like I said, I'd been a member of a group in the past. The, the edge of perception, which, you know, all we did was really put on public rituals. That's all we did. We weren't like a, we weren't sort of guiding a community necessarily. So all of our meetings dealt with what are we gonna do for the next, you know, for the solstice or whatever, and you know, who's gonna do what roles. And you know, how is, you know, how much did we spend on supplies for the last one? How much money do we have in the account for supplies for the next one? And you know, and that sort of thing, we were, we were a not for profit five. I think we had, you know, our 5 0 1 3 c, you know, thing or whatever. So we had to, you know, keep track of receipts and all that good stuff for taxes and but There weren't, so, there weren't really any issues in terms of like power struggles or anything along those lines, you know, people wanting to take control of things necessarily. At least none that I was aware of, but I definitely know that there are groups that are like that. You get like an individual who is, and that's one of the things like I, I feel I really sort of commend you for Mark, because you, that's, you have not being sort of the founder of, of this whole thing. You have made, I feel like you've made great strides to not put yourself in a position of. Power and or a position of authority or anything along those lines. You know, you've been pretty good about when people try to appeal to you as an authority on something and say, Well, Mark says this, or whatever. You're very much, I feel like you've done a pretty good job of, of the whole, like, you know, I'm just like, I'm just another member of the community like you, you know, just because my name's on a book or whatnot, that doesn't mean that, like what I say is, is law sort of thing. And I know that's been an issue. So there was an, at one point in my head there was this idea of like, kind of being a watchdog for the community if that sort of thing started to happen, to try to be a bull work against that. But that's, but it's never come up. So, that quickly faded into the background as something unnecessary. So I, so mainly I think I, I feel like I'm just there as support. Like I, like I said before, I, you know, I struggle with a lot of mental health issues and what have you. So my, my ability to do things is, is relatively limited. But I do, I, I, you know, I want to do whatever I'm capable of, you know, and take a more active role other than just seeing posts online and hearing about things and, you know, listening to the podcast and whatnot. And as far as going forward, I'd like to see a lot more opportunities like that provided for the entirety of the community. You know, it's a big community and I think a lot of those opportunities should be like on a, on local levels. You know, like you mentioned before, we've got our local live Oak Circle. Here in Northern California, which, you know, we've had like, what, like almost a dozen people Mark: Yeah. James: I think involved, you know, that have that at least, you know, I've seen, you know, active, we've got our own little discord server Mark: Mm. James: and whatnot to help coordinate stuff. And then you know, we've had Facebook members who have posted things about their local meetups, you know, one in Chicago that looked like had a fantastic turnout. And I like seeing it. It makes me happy to see things like that happening because I, community is something that's really important to me. And I think it's, I think a lot of the reason it's really important to me is, is because of how little direct access I have to it. You know, I'm, I'm sort of isolated out in the redwoods, you know, and So, and community interactions are, are, have become far more important to me. They're more meaningful to me because I have them, you know, so rarely. So that's an important step going forward, I think, is helping to foster those local communities Mark: Mmh. James: to build a greater, you know, broader, you know, general community. The, I thought that the Sun Tree retreat was a, was a fantastic success in terms of like turnout and whatnot. So I'd really love to see more events like that going forward. Like maybe regional regional ones and then, you know, a like a main sort of national one or whatever here in the States. And it would be fantastic to see. Because we've got members of the Facebook group from all over the world, you know? And we've got affinity groups for larger affinity groups, for like regional affinity groups for some of those areas. But it'd be great to see them putting together, you know, events and it, and I think a lot of people think if the, if like, Oh, we, if we're gonna do that, we're gonna need all of these things and we're gonna need this awesome space, and we're gonna need, you know, speakers or we're gonna need, It's like, you don't really, you just get together, get together and have a meal, you know, and make it a ritual, you know, be, be mindful of the various parts of the meal that you're, you know, as, as they're, as they're served or consumed or whatever. Or get together and, you know, if you're into drumming and stuff, you have a drum circle or sing some songs together or, you know, just do some, do something. As a community and it'll grow from that. You don't have to have like a fancy convention space or, you know, retreat center to go to or something along those lines. But I think building those communities is important because we, we do better together. You know, we, we move forward better, faster, more stronger together than we do, you know, as individuals. And some people, you know, social interaction is not a thing for them and they don't do well in groups and that's fine. You can totally do it by yourself. But, you know, I feel like as a, as a community though, moving forward, like these smaller local localized groups are really. I think that the next best step forward. Mark: Hmm. I think that's really well said about community and humanity as a social animal. You know, we, we get e even those of us that are very introverted will usually get something out of social interaction. They may not be able to take very much of it. But there's a, there's a sort of a, an energizing or a charge that comes with interacting with other people who see you and are authentic and open and kind and, you know, fostering that kind of a climate is, it's super important to me and it seems. That's what people are gravitating to in, in the online communities is like, wow, these people are nice and they're thoughtful and they're interesting and they, and they're rational and and they are open to the idea of secularizing the world in, you know, in ways that are moving and impactful. So, yeah. Yeah. That's very cool. I didn't realize that you had joined the council with the idea of being sort of a watchdog on, you know, on the power dynamics, but I'm, I'm glad to hear that you haven't felt that was necessary. James: Yeah. I mean that was sort of, it wasn't like a main reason, you know, the main reason was like, I, I wanted to be a part of it. I, you know, I wanted to be a part of, I wanted to give back, you know, cuz I had gotten quite a bit out of, you know, the online community and, and whatnot. And wanted to give back beyond just being a moderator on the Facebook group. And the, the whole like watchdog thing was sort of a secondary, a secondary thing, you know, one of those creeping things in the back of my head. And it was like, Oh, I've, like, I've seen groups like this come together before with really good intentions and then a cult of personality forms around one person. And and then it all falls apart. And I didn't wanna see that happen. You know, like I said, I, I feel, I feel kind of protective of our community. , which can have its own drawbacks because I, I, there are times when I'm feeling probably too protective and might see threats where there aren't any. And that's, you know, that's, that's my own shoot to deal with. The yeah, I think other things that we could do, like I, I, I think I probably mentioned previously about you know, we've got members of the community who probably are a little isolated and not as able and like some sort of like, outreach program or something along those lines, you know, to bring resources to those people. You know, I think this, this podcast has obviously been a great. Because you know, like you had mentioned to me previously about like the number of new members coming to the Facebook group because they heard the podcast which is fantastic, you know, but that's one of those things that like is of, it's available to everybody all over the world, you know, You know, you don't have to be on a specific social media platform or whatnot. This podcast is available on, you know, numerous different podcast platforms and everybody's got, and I think network, maybe possibly networking more with other similar like-minded groups. Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: You know, I think that might be a good step in the right direction. Cuz you know, In the end to get sort of philosophical, we're all in this together. Yucca: Yeah. James: that's not just like the a o paganism group online. And that's not just, you know, our, our local circles. It's, you know, everybody we're, and you know, we might not all completely agree on things all the time, but we, none of us get out of this alive. So we should all work together to make, to make the experiences as, as as pleasant as possible. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Yeah. James: and that, you know, and that in that involves a lot of work. And not, not necessarily like physical footwork type stuff, but like personal work, you know, for each of us. Things like Like dealing with issues of racism and ableism and things along those lines. You know, that's, that's stuff that has to be worked on, on a personal level. And you know, we all have a lot of, I think a lot of us the vast majority of us have a lot of internalized, you know, issues with those things. Things that have become normalized for us because it's just, they're, they just are things that have never been an issue. You know, it's a thing we've talked about in the Facebook group. Paganism in general for the, for a long time was a primarily white thing, Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: And and so I think a lot of people of color and whatnot really felt it was inaccessible to them, Mark: Yeah. Or that they were unwelcome. James: or that they were unwelcome. Exactly. Because there's still this huge trend, and that's why I'm I really. One of the things that I really like about Atheopagan and that that drew me to it, is that it's not based in a culture, a preexisting culture. It's not based around a preexisting set of traditions. You know, it encourages, you know, a DIY approach. You know, create your own rituals, create your own traditions, you know, start new ones. Don't, you know, like we, it's not the goal to recreate some lost civilization or culture, or to live in, you know, a a, a pretend past that never really existed. Cuz that's what most of these groups, you know, I feel like to some degree do. And it's not about escapism either, Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: Which is a thing that I found. I've gotten a lot of flack in the past for, for bringing the issue up in groups that I've been a part of that I feel like a lot of people were, you know, they'll be a part of a group that espouses like, you know, justice or something along those lines. I'm not gonna name any groups in particular. But they'll espouse values like justice. But then when issues of justice are brought up, people, you know, start going on the whole, like, why do you gotta make this political? It's like, uh, how is it not, How is that not like everything is political. If it involves people, it's political. So, You know, every aspect of our lives is affected by politics. You know, nobody lives in a. Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: from the rest of the world. So literally every aspect of our life is, has been affected or is constantly affected by politics. Whether it be the laws that we're living under or the regulations we have to abide by when doing things to our homes or you know, our yards, you know, down to like HOA organizations with how tall your grass can be and crap like that. Um, it's all politics, you know, And so, and I understand like people who get tired of hearing about hearing all the arguing Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: what have you, and I think that's primarily, it seems to be primarily an American issue, you know, a US issue. But you know, everybody knows what's going on in this country, you know, right now and has been for a while. So, you know, the whole world knows the sort of situation we're living in. So I think it's understandable that people are burnt out. . And, but most of those people who are like, Why do you gotta make it political, are the ones who aren't really all that negatively affected by politics. Mark: Right. They're  James: tired of hearing people argue about it because it interrupts their peace and quiet and they come into these groups because they're trying to escape rather than, you know. But for me, like I said, a spiritual life is an essential life and as an essential part of life, it's politics is unavoidable Mark: Mm. James: cuz that's an essential part of life. You can't exist in the world without, with other people, without politics. So, you know, that's I think working on those issues on an individual level is important. And working on those issues as a community, you know, supporting each other. You know, I, I feel like our community has been really good in like the comment sections and stuff on Facebook of offering up resources when issues come up and someone says, Well, I don't know how to do that, or I don't, you know, or where do I go to find that information? There's usually always someone who's got a list of links or books to read or, you know, or, or YouTubers to follow, or, you know, something along those lines that are, you know, resources. And then it's incumbent upon us to take personal responsibility then at that point, and read those things, you know, or, you know, or, or, or look up those papers or, or what have you. And you know, it so yeah, I the whole escapism thing, that's Mark: Yeah, we've, we've talked about that here before. I mean, it's, it's tricky because you can use sort of fantastic language and, and framing to. Make your life a lot as a tool to make your life a lot more enchanted. Right. James: Oh yeah. Mark: But you need to keep in mind, you know, it's that ability to recognize the difference between metaphor and reality. You know  James: And I, I'm a, I'm a big fan of like, the myth poetic, you know, as, as a tool, you know, for, like you said, re enchanting, you know, your life. But there's a, it be, it starts to become escapism when that becomes the, your preferred realm to exist in. Cuz it's not a real place. And you live in the real world and there's no getting around that. Mark: sure. When you start blaming fairies for things, James: Or Mark: It's a problem. James: right, or you know, like a thing you had mentioned, and I think you had mentioned it in, in your book, you know, with people like excusing behaviors, because you know, it's the will of the gods or, or whatnot. And the spiritual bypassing that takes place, you know, where people are like, Oh, well the reason this bad thing is happening in your life is because, you know, maybe you've angered some spirits or something along those lines. And, which is really just a fancy way of victim blaming at that point.  Yucca: It's a way of not taking responsibility, James: yeah, exactly. And so that's, that was going back to like the first question. You know, that's, that's another thing that sort of drew me to Athe o Paganism, was that, that that wasn't a part of all this. There was no, there was no road. For that sort of approach to things, you know, personal responsibility and and, you know, taking steps in our own sort of growth and development, you know, are are built in. And that's that's very appealing to me and I think needed, you know, in. Mark: Yeah. One thing that I've really appreciated about many people in the Pagan community, I certainly wouldn't say all of them, but many people in the Pagan community, is that there is this kind of dedication to personal growth, you know, to, to doing the work to become the best people they can and. I just see that as essential. You know, it's like if, if the goal is excellence in how we interact with one another in the world that we create in our engagement with the rest of the natural world in all of that, then it, you know, it starts with the wrestling that's happening in your head and, you know, figuring that stuff out and getting as clear and as kind and as balanced as we can. And so it, so that was one of the things that drew me back towards Paganism. And after I got sick of it, you know, there were those people that were living in a fantasy world and were, you know, causing harm out of that. But then there were these other people who were just amazing. Humble, fantastic, incredible people. And I wanted those people . I, you know, I, I wanted to go back and get them. So that's, that's been part of what this has been about. James: yeah. I've had, and like, you know, I, I skipped over in my story about how I got to aio Paganism. I skipped over a lot of the stuff that I got involved in, looking for ways of like making meaning in the world. That were more solo like, I got into Chaos Magic, and I got into the, you know, I was involved in the Lima for, for a while, Mark: Mm-hmm. James: you know, joined some initiatory orders and, and what have you. And know, it was all, you know, brain hacking, trying to figure out how to make myself that better person, you know, that you just mentioned. And doing it on your own by yourself is often very difficult. And so I, I think having a community that's all also working towards that. And like you said, not everybody involved in those groups was good. But there were definitely some jewels, you know, that stood out. But for some of them, like the, the, the, the Leic community there was a lot of just. I, I pretty much left all of, I left the Lima because of a lot of the just really horrible, toxic stuff. And I've always been a proponent of the idea that whatever it is that you're championing, whatever cause that you're standing behind, whatever beliefs that you are espousing, look around at the other people who are going, Yes, that's what that I'm on, pa on. I'm right there with you. I'm on the same page as you are. You believe what I believe and I absolutely support you. And if those people are neo-Nazis, and if those people are, you know, just you know, white nationalists and racists and terrible people, then you need to, you need to rethink these ideas that you're championing. Cause if they're saying, Oh, no, no, I totally agree with you, I don't think that's a good thing. and, So, you know, I, I, I've had these conversations to get political. I've had these conversations with folks who, you know, espouse like conservative values and whatnot, and they're like, Yeah, but you know, I don't agree with those guys, but yeah, but they agree with you. Like you don't agree with those guys cuz you don't, because they're on, you're just sort of cherry picking, you know, the things of their ideology that they, that you don't agree with. And I don't know that you're actually looking at, at what they believe and what you believe with an unbiased, you know, viewpoint. And I think that your ideas and their ideas line up far more than you're willing to admit to. And because on some level you do agree with them because if they're agreeing with you, how is that not the same thing? You know, if you say XYZ and they're like, Yes, xyz, and then you say, Oh yeah, but I don't agree with their xyz, but it's it's the same xyz. Then, you know, I think that needs some reflection and some rethinking. And so, yeah, I don't know where I was going with that. I've got my mid-afternoon coffee, caffeine hitting my, hitting my head and it's sending me on spirals. Yeah. What were we saying? Yucca: We had been talking about the gyms in the community, and you'd said that you'd kind of skipped over some of the, the, James: yeah, Yucca: the various groups that you'd been involved in and stopped being involved in. James: yeah. Cuz I think when, when, for me it was like a matter of percentages, you know, if there's like three or four people in the community that are absolutely wonder. People and the, the overwhelming majority of the community is not, then that's, then you, you can't, you can't it, I personally can't stay in a community like that. I can't stay involved with a group like that. Like I, it, it's always terrible to have to sort of leave a group because you know you're gonna miss those people probably, especially if you developed any sort of personal relationship with them. And you can always stay, you know, connected with those people outside of that group. But being part of the group itself is just not an option any longer. Again, I think, I feel like you gotta look around at the people who are, who are standing behind you and chanting along with you and see what sort of flags they're waving and, you know, if those are flags that strike you as you know, bad things, then maybe you should think about. You know why it is that they're chanting along with you. And I, and it's mostly been like, you know, events that have taken place here in the US over the last, like six years or so that have really sort of brought that sort of idea to a head for me. You know, or also if you don't, the people who are on your side are championing ideas that actively seek to harm or impede the lives of people you care about, then maybe you should rethink those ideas also, because if you really care about those people, why would you want to promote the things that are going to hurt them, you know? And I feel like in our, to bring it back to, you know, our community, I feel like we are, I feel like we're, we can always do better, but I feel like we're doing a pretty good job. And that is, and that's not to sort of say, you know, to let us off the hook in any way, shape or form. The work is, the work is constant and ongoing and not quick. You know, there is no fast like flip a switch and suddenly you're not racist, you know, or you flip a switch and suddenly you're not ableist anymore. You know, those are, they're patterns of behavior that come about from living in a system that promotes all of those things and oftentimes rewards those things. So, you know, working out of those situations, those methods of thought and whatnot is a. It's a lot of deep work, but I feel like as a community we can support each other in that work. And that's what part of what I was saying about when conversations like that have come up on the Facebook group, you know, people offering up resources, you know, books, you know, books to read and things along those lines. I know we've got, there's like a book club like an atheopagan book club and I think that they've read some, some pretty good books, you know, in, in that regard on some of those issues. I definitely, I'm not a part of it cuz reading books for me is a, it's a whole thing that's gets too complicated to get into right now. But but I definitely encourage them to read more of those books that help work on those issues. You know, everybody likes to read, you know, the fun books. Things like gathering loss is a popular one. Or what's the other, the Mark: reading Sweet Grass. James: Yeah. Braiding, sweetgrass. Those books, those books come up a lot in conversations. and those are great. Yeah. Yeah, they're great. I, I'd like to, you know, I'd like to see more opportunities for for unlearning the sort of problematic tendencies that, that, you know, the overwhelming majority of us tend to have. Mark: Mm. James: cuz that makes the community more accessible to the folks, you know, like I mentioned before, that felt it, you know, this sort of spirituality inaccessible before, Mark: Mm-hmm. James: Yeah. And, and build your own tradit. You know, around that sort of thing cuz that can help reinforce all of that and Mark: You know, I, I need to put in a word about that. I, I wrote a blog post probably four or five months ago now. In which I agree for myself, I, I want to create new culture. But I can see how for people of color, they might want to draw culture from their ancestors forward. Um, and so, you know, when I talk about, when I talk about Ethiopia, Paganism being a modern thing that just got started in the early two thousands, and it's not rooted in any culture that really comes out of the fact that I just designed it for me and I'm this white guy you know, this sort of Mongol American white guy. And I think. I've, I've since done more thinking about that, and I think that it's really important for us to acknowledge that there's a place for drawing indigenous traditions, drawing traditions of African ancestry, you know, drawing those, those pieces forward into the ritual practices of people that come out of those, those ethnicities. James: I, I absolutely agree. I think on, on a personal level, I think, you know, for your own like personal ritual and spiritual life, I think drawing on, on, on your heritage is, is absolutely, although I don't like using that word, heritage I think drawing on that is Backgrounds. is, is, is important and can be really sort of empowering and enriching and whatnot. I think it, where the issue comes in is when the overwhelming majority of a group comes from a particular background Mark: Yeah. James: and they try to make those aspects of their background, the primary focus of the community's background. So like, you know, taking a recent holiday for example. So that's an Irish thing, you know, that's a Gaelic culture cultural thing. Yucca: Mm. Mark: Mm-hmm. James: so everybody's like, everybody talks about sow and it's like, I mean, it's not, it's not like a solar festival, you know, it's not one of the cross quarter you know, holidays that is tied to an astronomical. Or anything along those lines, like the solstice and equinoxes. So it is a very sort of culturally specific thing, and not everybody celebrates that. And so when everybody's almost sort of insisted be called that because Halloween is too much of a, I mean, it's, it's even got its own cultural sort of baggage, you know, in terms of like all Hall's Day being, you know, kind of a, a, a more Christian centric holiday and the whole, the whole co-opting of, of, you know, pagan holidays by Christianity idea and those sorts of things. But I think a lot of people, when, when the community, when the greater community refers to it as a specific cultural thing like sa, those people who did not come, did not grow up in that background. Feel isol, you know, separated and they feel like they're not able to take, they feel excluded. So I feel like as a greater, you know, sort of global community or whatever, coming up with new non culturally specific things is great. And then incorporate in your own personal rituals and whatnot, and even your own local group rituals, incorporate aspects of the, of, of your own background into that. And then your group can each, each person can bring their own cultural background into the mix. And you have this, you know, lovely bouquet of, of mixed flowers, you know, that everybody can enjoy. The but yeah, I think that when people lean into those sort of traditional ideas of the holidays, You know, of our, like, you know, that can be one of the things that isolates people who have traditionally been sort of excluded from these sort of circles, and it makes us less inclusive. You know, I personally celebrate sound because That's my background. You know, I'm 93% Scottish and Irish and with a smidge of, you know, other, you know, I'm a, I'm a American mut, you know, with a blend of, of European backgrounds. And but I wasn't raised in any of those cultures, you know, that's a, so that's a thing. One of my. I don't wanna say pet peeves cuz that's not what it is. One of my issues that I struggle with a lot of times is I don't believe that for the most part Americans have in general, white America doesn't have a recognizable, consistent culture or cultural background to draw from. Which I think is one of the reasons why so many folks look to, like Ancient Ireland and Ancient Scotland or ancient Germany and you know, or Scandinavia, they look to Asat true, you know, because of their roots and their heritage and they, or they look to, you know, like the Celtic sort of stuff because of their, you know, their ancestry. It's like, that's great, but you likely weren't raised with any of those traditions, assuming those traditions are real at all. And so, In a way that's sort of a, it's a hot button topic and I'll probably get flack for it and people will talk about me. But I feel like in a way that's sort of still a matter of cultural appropriation cuz you weren't raised in that culture and there are people who legitimately went through terrible things because of their connection to that culture. They were prohibited from practicing just like here in the United States with the, with, you know, indigenous peoples being legally prohibited from pr, from practicing, you know, you know, uh, their, their ancestral traditions and what whatnot to step up. Having not gone through any of that and just adopt those things and say, Well that's, you know, that's my, that's, you know, my heritage. It's like you're, I. I guess blood wise down the road, always, you've got that connection to people who participated in that. But you, you never did. You're, you know, that's not part of your, your culture for the overwhelming, not for everybody. Obviously there are exceptions. People who are like first generation Americans and whatnot. They may have relatives who who carried some of some older traditions and stuff forward. But this idea of participating in these like ancient traditions, like, I mean, it's, Yucca: I think it doesn't necessarily just have to be first generation either. I mean, there, you know, there's a, James: but those traditions have to have been carried forward. Like, I feel like you need to have been raised in the culture to, to really, because otherwise you're, you are participating in a thing without, without any sort of, you know, you're participating in a thing that other people were punished for without. The threat of punishment, you know, and without having gone through those  Yucca: I, think it's really very specific to different ones. I mean that some, some times when those ancestors were forced to stop, Doing tho having those traditions. You know, my, my father's first language, he was not allowed to speak that outside of the home. And his, you know, his, his mother wasn't allowed to speak it. So I wasn't, I didn't get that language from him. Right. But, but there's still a connection that I have to that culture, right? Or, you know, and, and so for instance, my, my child is relearning the language even though there's a generational gap between, you know, what she was, how she's been raised, the culture that she was raised in, and, and wanting to like to rebrace, right, to reclaim and rekindle some of that. James: And I think as long as, as, as those things are being passed down with the knowledge of, of the struggle that people went through regarding those things, like how the, how the, you know, and that's, you know, the reason that you're doing it. But I think a lot of that is disregarded when people just sort of pick up a book on Celtic paganism or something along those lines, and they think that they're participating in these like ancient Celtic rituals and whatnot, which is Yucca: My personal pet peeve around that is when it gets all lumped into one culture, it's like, wait, but, but we're a lot of different cultures, you know? James: I've been involved in Drewry and things like that, and there's this idea of like this Dr. Reconstructionism and whatnot, which I think is. The fact of the matter is, is we don't know what any of the, there was nothing written down and we don't know what was practiced. So these like ancient rights or ancient rituals, they're not ancient. They're all new modern inventions. And there's that zero evidence that, you know, and there's a lot of hearsay and people are like, Well, no, this was passed down. Word of mouth. It's like, yeah. And we've all played telephone, we've all played that game. And there's a good chance that the way that you're doing things is absolutely nothing like what people did then. You know, and you've got the influence of Christianity and things like that. And to think that, to think that, like, I don't know. I think the assumption that, like the monks that wrote down a lot of this stuff, when they were encountering these new cultures, you know, as they were, were coming into the areas that they weren. Repainting and reinterpreting and just straight up lying about things. I think I, I don't think that's an honest approach to, to what that is. So,  Mark: Well, and, and James, this also goes to the lionization of the ancient, right? I mean, there's that whole idea that because something is old, that it's got a deep validity to it. And that's, that's one that I just. Honestly, I don't go with, I mean, to me, cultures are valid just because they're valid and it doesn't matter whether they started recently or, and then, then there are cultures that aren't so valid, like Joseph Smith's arrangement that has now taken off and has many followers all over the world that you know, the values of, which I find really problematic. But just because something is new doesn't make it invalid. And just because something is old doesn't make it valid. But particularly for people where there's been genocidal effort to extinguish the culture, I think it is really important to be able to say to someone who's, you know, grandfather and father were, you know, grandparents and, and parents were not allowed to speak their native language, that they are still entitled to relearn that language and restart those cultural traditions again. James: Sure, I think. But I think that a lot, and I think a lot of it is for me personally, that's it. It's all continued upon intent. Mark: Mm-hmm. James: if you're, if I think if you're going to do that, then you need to be learning about the struggles that they went through. You need to be informing yourself about the reasons why this is an issue, you know? It's like, you know, the, it's, for me, it's like the, the whole like, you know, When it comes to, like in, in indigenous folks, you get the person who does their 23andme DNA test and they get the thing that says, Oh, you're 0.05% Native American. And they're like, Oh, cool. Well, I'm just gonna start practicing Cherokee, you know, traditions or, or whatnot cuz you know, well I'm part, you know, I'm part Native American and what, and, and not learning why that's a, why that's a problem. Mark: Yeah. James: It's like if you're, I, you know, because in all likelihood, you, you, you really, the only connection you have is a genetic, is a genetic connection to those, you know, to those folks because you've not, you know, I don't know. It's a, it's a, it's a complicated. It's definitely not cut and dry. There are definitely, you know, exceptions to the rule and, and, and all of that good stuff. There's, I come from a, you know, a line of people who are very, very far removed from any of that. I, the, the research that I've done on my own family, you know, I got as far back as like the 15 hundreds to some, you know, Sept of SCOs who, you know, the, the, the McCulloughs or, or whatnot. And they were like a, they didn't have their own tartan, which was a, which was a pretty modern invention. They didn't have their own, you know, sort of clan, steel and motto or insignia or anything. There were like a vassal clan of some other larger clan, but. I wasn't raised with any of that. My grandparents weren't raised with any of that. My great grandparents weren't raised with any of that. You know, if anything, there's more Appalachian you know, traditions and culture, which is a mishmash of, of, you know, a number of things. Because the farther you get from the source, the more diluted those things sort of become, the more integrated with other, you know, cultures and, and, and traditions and whatnot. Those things become and they become their own thing, you know? So like, I feel like for me, like I've, I've, I've tried to educate myself on the struggles of those people from my background who were barred from like my Irish ancestors who were barred from speaking Irish, you know, by the English in my. I try to educate myself about that. And I try not to just take it for granted that I'm just allowed because my, you know, my grandmother's last name was Bailey, you know, and I think that there's the overwhelming majority of people that I have encountered in the Pagan community. That's really the sort of approach. There's this romanticized like idea of like ancient Celtic Ireland, you know, that people pursue. And and it goes, it goes back to the whole escapism thing for me. And you know, I think a lot of people are what draws a lot of people to modern paganism. And the new age movement is a dissatisfaction with the way the world is right now and a lack of sort of, Lack of meaningful internal life you know, to to help give them a sense of comfort and whatnot in, you know, the, the sort of times that we're having. And I think that there's that appeal to, it's the reason we read, you know, that's the reason we read fantasy books and things like that, you know, So for a brief time we can live in a world that is not this one. Mark: Yeah, but this one is so amazing. Yucca: Yeah. James: it really is. You open your eyes and you look at the world around you and you see like really look and see the various processes taking place on the. Smaller levels, you can just keep going. You know, like, Oh, well why does that happen? And there's a whole process involved and it's like, and then you can take a piece of that process and say, Well, why does that happen? And there's this whole other process involved, and it's this like fractal rabbit hole that, you know, winds up down in some quantum, you know, wormhole thing Mark: Some probabilistic. Weird. James: Yeah. Mark: Yeah, James: until we're just speculating, because we really don't know, because we are physically incapable of seeing any more detail from that for now. And you can do the same to the greater scale, you know, because the immensity of this universe and reality in general, as you know, is astounding and incredibly humbling. For me to contemplate. I've spent many a night lying on my back as a kid. I had, I built a skateboard ramp for myself, and there would be times when I would lay down on the deck of that skateboard ramp and living in rural America, there wasn't a lot of street lights and things like that to obscure my view of the sky. And spent a lot of time laying, just looking up at the stars in the moon and whatnot, and always feeling that sensation of sort of being held to the earth. Mark: Hmm. James: Like at any moment I could fall off of it Yucca: Hmm mm. James: into the, you know, the sky, you know, up into the, that vastness, because what is up Mark: Mm-hmm. James: that's arbitrary you know, it's in relation to where, you know, to where the ground is. That's up. Mark: Yeah. James: But in the, in the schema things, there is no up. There's no down. It just, we have to put these sort of descriptions on things to help us make sense because of how limited we are in, in our, in our perception. But I think going back to yet another thing that drew me to a, the o paganism is that whole idea of like, that's, I'm, I'm part of all of that. That's, that, that craziness, that just overwhelming levels of complexity. And like we talked you know, yesterday, mark, about the human brain and how, how little we really know about how it operates. This chunk of fat and water and whatnot that sits inside, you know, this bone on the top of our head or our bodies. Excuse me. Throat thing happening. The, the overwhelming, like, I don't know the awe that sets in Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Mm-hmm. James: the, you just, there are times when it just takes my breath away. And it's the appreciation of that and knowing that every other person who's part of the, you know, not just part of our community, but every other person in the entire world is also part of that. Mark: Mm-hmm. James: And if there's anything that connects us, that's, it's that, you know, we're all part of this sort of greater mechanism. I don't know that like, I guess you could call it an organism if you wanted. Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: You know, I guess it all depends on per. , but we're all tiny, tiny, tiny little pieces of this huge thing that operates in a relatively specific manner. Mark: Mm. James: even though it seems like, you know, at times all of the stuff is so random and whatnot. That's sort of the point, is that that's how it works, is that there's no sort of predetermined path. No one has laid it all out, you know, and mapped everything out. Like what's the point of that? You know? Excuse me, my throat. So Yucca: Yeah. Well, I'll, Yeah. James: having me on.  Yucca: Yeah. So thank you James. This has been, This has been amazing. Mark: It has, it's the, I mean, we've wandered into all these really essential subject matters about, about our path and about our community, and it's just been a really great conversation. Thank you. James: Yeah, thank you for, for tolerating my, my ramblings.  Yucca: Well, thank you for sharing them with us. We really appreciate it. Oh, James: my pleasure. Mark: And we'll see you all next week. Everybody. Have a great week.    .

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James: Hey audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieved Wealth Through Value Add Real Estate Investing podcast. And today we are doing a slightly different format. We are doing a podcast plus a webinar and I have Dr. Glennn Mueller here. So Dr. Glennn is someone I have been following for many, many years looking at his real estate market cycle studies and he's a professor at University of Denver. He has been doing this almost 36 years, if I'm not mistaken, has gone through many, many different market cycle. And, Dr. Glennn, why not tell our audience what I didn't cover in terms of introducing yourself. Glenn: Sure. So I've actually been in the real estate field for the past 45 years. Started out as a loan analyst at United bank of Denver and by chance got put into the real estate group after a couple of years, realized that real estate people made a lot of money, went out and started my own construction and development companies and built custom homes for about seven years and then decided that I wanted to have a change and a different lifestyle. So I went back to school, got my PhD in real estate and started teaching at the University of Denver. I hired away by a big institutional investor, Prudential real estate investors and then onto a Jones Lang LaSalle. And then started working on the security side with Wreaths Real Estate Investment Trusts at Lake Mason. I ran the research group there and then one of my client's black Creek group invited me to come and head up research for them. And I've been with them now for the past 15 years and at the same time teaching as a full professor at the University of Denver. So I guess I'm a typical real estate type A personality running two jobs at the same time. But a lot of my research is focused on real estate market cycles, which is what we're going to talk about today. James: Yes, yes, correct. And real estate is very interesting because sometimes it's very hard for us to make it into a very analytical format. And when I look at your charts and the work that you do, you have really break it down to science. I mean, of course, definitely there's art in real estate but there's a lot of science to it as well. And it comes from years and years of research, like what you have done. And that's very important for people like us who are basically active investors who are buying deals day in, day out and going to different market cycles and it's also more important for people who have never gone to a full market cycle. Like, even for me, I've not gone through a down cycle yet and there are tons and tons of people who have not gone to a down cycle, so we always wonder how this different cycle is impacted by different property types. What do you call us, like industrial, self-storage, apartments, office and retail and few other things. So this presentation that you're going to be doing on the webinar and throughout the podcast, we're going to try to clarify some of the slides that's going to be covered here so that the people who are listening to the podcast is going to be able to follow too as well. And this going to be difficult [03:26unclear] Glenn: So do you want to... James: Go ahead doctor? Glenn: So if you'd like, if you want, I've got my slides ready to go. We could probably go to that. I can start in. James: Let's start, I mean I'm going to name this podcast, A State of the Union of Commercial Real Estate Property [03:46unclear] so let's go through it. Glenn: Throw the word cycles in there someplace because I do real estate cycles. So let me actually bring that to full screen size to make it easier to see. Is that clear for you?   James: Yes that's awesome.   Glenn: Okay, great. So basically I believe that real estate is a delayed mirror of the economy as the economy goes, so goes real estate when the economy is doing well, real estate does well. When the economy turns down, real estate lags by about a year and about a year after the economy starts to turn down, real estate will turn down. You can see that here in this first chart and on the demand side of real estate, there are three key things we look at. The first one is population growth. The US population is growing at nine tenths of 1%. We are 330 million people. So we're actually growing by 3 million people every year in this country; and let's put that into simple real estate terms. That means that we need to build one city, complete city the size of Denver, Colorado, which will actually hit 3 million people this year, to give them a place to eat, sleep, shop, work, play, pray, store things, et cetera.   So here you can see GDP growth, the great recession in oh nine and the beginning of 2010 with negative GDP growth. And then it has rebounded and it's been running at this nice average of right around, just a little over 2%. And the forecast is that that looks like it continues forward with a little bit of a dip here in in late 2020. But to be honest, economists are always wrong. Their numbers never perfectly accurate and there's a fairly high probability that doesn't happen. The reason for that dip is actually the employment growth below, which again, you can see the negative number back in 2009. It starts to recover and go positive in 2010 and has been running about 2%. And then you see the forecast for a slight decline back to down to close to zero in 2021. That's actually a mathematical calculation of the number of baby boomers like me getting to retirement age of 65 versus the number of millennials who are just coming out of school.   The only thing and one of the reasons I believe that that number is wrong is that most baby boomers like me, we enjoy what we do and we're not necessarily retiring or if we do within six months to a year, we're out with another job. It may be a totally different kind of job. I love up here in the mountains of Colorado and a lot of my friends that retired are working as ski school instructors or driving a shuttle bus or my wife is a host and tour guide, Arapaho area ski area. So those people are still working. So that decline in employment growth sort of forecasted decline in GDP growth, my guess is that doesn't happen. And a lot of economists now are saying maybe we're in the lower for longer term. As you probably all know. We just hit 10 years of economic expansion. So we're in the longest economic expansion in modern history and a lot of economists do say, well, it can't go past that, but I don't believe that because right now the country in the world that's had the longest economic expansion is Australia and they're in their 28th year of expansion with no recessions. So I believe that the way that we're set up with this more moderate growth is something that is potentially sustainable as we go along. James: So let me recap that because that's very important point because that's a lot of notion out there that we are too long in expansion cycle, we must come to an end, it's cyclic but what you're saying is the way the employment growth and the way that GDP growth has become moderate right now for the pass many how many years we have, and that's a good thing. So what you're saying is with that moderate growth, we might be able to go longer on expansion cycle. Is that right? Glenn: Right. We're at the beginning of the longest ever. James: Correct. So when you talk about Australia, I mean, I know it's one of the longest expansion cycle and things are getting very expensive there, but is that the same case in Australia? Were they like moderate growth for very long time and that's how they're able to sustain it? Glenn: Yes. James: Okay. Got it. Got it. And what's driving the 0.9% population growth, where is the growth coming from? Glenn: That is new births over deaths plus legal immigration.   James: Okay.   Glenn: And so we're actually growing at a higher rate than that from illegal immigration as well. But there are more people; we're at a very low unemployment rate at this point in time. So anybody that wants a job, basically you can get a job and that's a good thing.   James: Okay. I'm going to ask about inflation and you are showing the chart on inflation, okay let's go to inflation.   Glenn: So on the flip side of the coin is as we look at, and this talk that we're talking about, by the way, we're talking about income producing real estate, not homes, not home ownership. So we're focusing on the income producing side of this as we go along. So the two things that we look at, so we've got good demand as we put up new properties for people to us. On the cost side inflation is running at again about 2% and has been since the great recession when it was actually negative and that is expected to continue. And then we look at interest rates and of course we are at, actually, I'm going to jump ahead here to a different graph, I think. No, I'll wait on that because it's too far ahead.   We're at a very low interest rate. As a matter of fact, the lowest interest rates in 60 years. And then in income producing real estate, commercial real estate you can't go out and get a 30 year mortgage on an office building. The longest you're going to see is 10 years. And so we look at 10 year treasuries, US treasuries as our benchmark. And here you can see that 10 year treasuries and these graphs are actually wrong, they forecast going up to 4%, 10 year treasuries are running a little under 2%. So if you're going to go out and get a commercial loan, you might get in a 10 year treasuries plus a 2% premium. So that would be a, today, 10 year treasuries are running right about one seven, one eight. So you would be getting a 3.8% 10 year loan on your property, which is a very low interest rate. Hence good return to equity on investment after the loan amount.   James: So the chart that you showed is basically a forecast but we are running much lower than the forecast I guess?   Glenn: Yes. Yup. We are.   James: And who came up with the forecast?   Glenn: Every economists forecast what is going to happen. The forecast that we look at many times are the congressional budget office. So that's cbo.gov, if you want to go get their stuff; they do 10 year forecasts on GDP growth, limit growth, interest rates, all kinds of different things. So that's a very good place and it's free to go look at what's happening. And just underneath that they've got a lot of different things. Just click on the economy one and all that information will come up.   James: And why do you think the economists are wrong? Why were they forecasting at 4% [11:41unclear] 1.7?   Glenn: It's a statistical method called reversion to the mean. Interest rates over 60 years have averaged close to 6%. So now that it's low, it has to go back up.   James: Got it, got it.   Glenn: And every single year they did forecasting within two years, 4% and every year for the last 10 years they've been wrong. James: Last 10 years they've been wrong. Is there a chance for them to be continuously being wrong? Glenn: Again there's an old saying for kindness, forecast often. James: Well, the reason I ask is because every year people are forecasting the interest rates are going up or coming down when everybody's wrong all the time.   Glenn: Yes.   James: And it's very important for interested for investors like us, like where we are predictive because we do exit cap rate and we have buying deals, hoping on the cash flow, but also this market appreciation would be a bonus for us, so that's why I asked.   Glenn: So let's actually go right to talk about real estate and my market cycle analysis. So I believe there's really two cycles in real estate. The first one is the physical cycle, which is demand and supply for real estate. So people renting and space available for rent and that drives the occupancy rate which is just the inverse of vacancy. I like using occupancies and you'll see why here and occupancy drives rent growth. So if my occupancies are up, which means there's more demand, I can raise my rents. If we're in a recession and occupancies go down, people aren't renting. Landlords are going to drop their rents. And if I add occupancy and rent together, so if I get an increase in occupancy, in other words, I rent more space and I get an increase in rent, those two together will tell me how much income I'm going to get off my property. That's the physical cycle.   The financial cycle talks about the price of real estate and we're going to do that second and we're going to do it separately. So here's my market cycle analysis and you see that I've got four quadrants, just like the account, just like an economic cycle or recovery and expansion. I have a supply and a recession phase. There are 16 points on the cycle because historically real estate cycles have lasted 16 years and so at the bottom we've got obviously declining vacancy on the way up and increasing vacancy on the way down. We don't build much there in the recovery phase. We build a lot in both the expansion and the hyper supply phase. And then we don't start anything but we complete buildings that have been started in the recession phase. So actually we'll go to this slide. So the study that I've done and published that I get quoted on all the time is the fact that if you know where you are in the cycle, you'll know what kind of rent growth you might expect. So you can see here at the bottom, I don't know if my arrow is showing up here or not, but at the bottom of the cycle points one and two, you've got negative rent growth, so landlords are dropping their rent. So if it was $10 a square foot last year and it's going down 3%, 3% of $10 is 30 cents or it's going to go down to $9.70 a square foot to rent. As we start to come up through the cycle and occupancies increase you can see rent growing and at positions six, at the long-term average there, 0.6 is on the long-term average dotted line; you can see that rent growth was 4% and during this historic cycle time, inflation was running 4% then. So when you get to long-term average, you get basically the rate of inflation.   Then in the green shaded area here, which is the expansion phase, you can see rents really rising quickly to a peak and a high of 12.5% in position 10. Then when we hit the peak of the cycle, which is the highest level of occupancy after that, rent still grows positively, but it starts to decelerate or slow down, back to around inflation at 0.14 and then low and negative again at the bottom. And then one of the things to notice here is that 0.8 on the cycle is green and because that is the cost feasible rent level. By that I mean that if it costs $400 a square foot to build a new office building here in Denver and investors are looking for a 10% rate of return on that $400 investment, 10% of 400 is $40 a square foot. So rents in the market have to hit 40 before we can cost justify building the new building. Makes sense?   James: Got it. Makes sense. Makes sense.   Glenn: Okay. So every quarter I look at the major property types, look at that demand and supply, look at the occupancy levels and as you can see today five major property types office downtown or suburban office is at 0.6, downtown offices at 0.8, retail, which will surprise everybody at 0.9, industrial at 0.10 and retail industrial warehouse up at peak occupancy rates. And the only property type that's over the top into hyper supply is apartment. An apartment is there not because of a decline in demand, we've got all these millennials coming out of school and so every year demand is going up for apartments, but we're just overbuilding it a little bit. So for my company and for other investors, what I do is I analyse the 54 largest cities in the United States and where they are in their cycle. And as you can see here they're kind of spread up because demand and supply is very local in nature. Notice what's happening in New York office, which is driven by the financial sector and the stock market is going to be different from what's happening in Boston or Chicago or in New York or any other city. So you can look at the companies that are there, the industry that's driving the growth and what you see here is national average at 0.8. But some markets moving up the cycle and some markets over the top. And I'll give a quick example here. We've got two markets that are in the hyper supply phase, Austin and Houston, both in Texas   James: [18:19unclear]   Glenn: The Austin market is driven by technology companies. A lot of tech companies like being there because they can hire young people that want to live in Austin, It's a cool city. Actually [18:31unclear]   James: I'm in Austin. It is very cool to live here.   Glenn: And so, what's happening there is since that's been going on for a few years, the developers are putting up just a little bit more space than you need. So the occupancy rate is starting to come down just a little bit because there's too much space there. So that's a situation of too much supply. Houston is exactly the opposite. It's a place of declining demand because the oil industry is driving Houston and with low gas prices, the amount of exploration and other things going on has dropped off and they've laid people off. So that's a position of declining demand. So since you're in Austin, let's watch Austin as we look at this. So that's where office is, here's where industrial is. So warehouse space, again, Austin is just one point over the top. A lot of markets are at their peak, demand for an industrial warehouse space has been very strong because of Amazon and people buying things online.   So we've got a huge demand growth on the industrial side and there are some cities again where it's easy to build. So we're overbuilding just a little bit. Now we look at the apartment market and Austin is at the top at the peak point at 11 because you aren't putting up apartments fast enough for all these millennials moving in. But you look at, there's a lot of other markets where they are putting up a little bit too much space. In other words, we're oversupplying almost half the market. So the national average is just a little over the top. Every time I talk to developers I'd say if you just back off on building apartments by about 10% of what's being built, you'll come right back into balance and be back at peak equilibrium point 11. When we look at retail, you can see that the majority of the cities are at peak and Austin is there as well. This is the one surprising thing because everybody hears about retailers going out of business and we’ll talk about that a little bit more in just a second. And then finally hotels here you can see that hotels, the majority are in the expansion phase with some over the top. And again, Austin, you're oversupplying by just a little bit. So what I want to do now is jump to and looks at the historic cycles. As you said, you haven't been through a full cycle yet. Well here we're going to go back to 1982 and that's a point in time at which I was building. And you can see that occupancies in office were very high. They came down and bottomed out in the early 1990's with a small recession and we'd actually over oversupplied a lot. They peaked in 2000 with the technology boom, they bottomed in 2002 and three, with the technology bubble bursting; came up to a lower peak in 2006 and seven as the economy was doing well, bottomed out in the great recession in 2010. And today has come back and are reaching a kind of a lower level equilibrium occupancy level than we've seen in previous times. But it looks like it's going to last for at least another two or three years. So the other line that you see here is the rent growth line. And you can see that those two are very highly correlated. As a matter of fact, they're correlated by almost 80%. So if occupancies are going up, rents are going up, if occupancies are going to go down, rents are going to go down. Pretty simple and straightforward to look at. So let's look at my forecast and here's the forecast and it looks very much like the monitor. And you can see that markets are again, majority in the expansion place. Austin, as you can see there is in the hyper supply phase at position 13. And again, that's because I'm forecasting that you've got a lot of new properties coming online, so your occupancy levels are actually going to fall a little bit in the coming year. If we look at industrial, you see basically the exact same cycle of occupancies and rent growth and we've got this really nice equilibrium that happened back in the mid-nineties and another one that's happening today. Rent growth has been really high in industrial because of the, I call it the Amazon effect up at 7% more than double the rate of inflation and we expect that to kind of work its way back down over the next few years back to kind of a more normal by 2017 we expect to see kind of inflation type things there.   So again, half the markets at peak or equilibrium, the other half building just a little bit too much, but that's the way it is and Austin, again, just one point over the top. Oh, one other thing is you notice I've got some numbers after each city and those numbers tell you if the city is moved from the previous quarter, for instance below Austin there you've got Cincinnati at a plus one. So Cincinnati was at peak number 11, and its occupancy occupancies dropped enough for me to move it forward to position 12. So it's rent growth is going to be decent James: And the bolded city are the biggest cities? Glenn: Right. Okay. Yeah. So the bolded cities make up, one of the things I found was there are big concentrations. So in each of the different property types there is anywhere between 11 and 14 cities that make up 50% of all the square footage in all 54 of these markets. So what city is bolded may not be the same in each case. So like Riverside is here in the industrial, but it's not in any of the others. Las Vegas will be in hotels, but it's not a big city for office or any of the other property types. When we look at apartments, you can see that we actually hit a peak in occupancy back in where am I?   James: 2019.   Glenn: Yeah. We had a peak back in 2014. It looks like we had another peak here in 2019, but because of the overbuild; we slowed things down a little bit. But going forward, we just have a lot of it in the pipeline and so we're going to overbuild it looks like for next three or four years and hence rent growth, which was as high as 5% back in 2015 has dropped off. And in 2019, I think it's going to run about two and a half percent. James: But looking at that chart, you're predicting 2019 after 2019, rent growth is going to slow down because of the oversupply stage?   Glenn: Yes. Yup.   James: Got it.   Glenn: Exactly.   James: And does it matter on which class apartment is it? Which location? Which city? Tertiary, primary market? Glenn: Oh, well. So here are the cities for apartments. And you can see Austin I think is still at its peak. You're not putting up quite enough. Most of the other cities are in that hyper supply phase. Where they're putting up a little too much. And so they're occupancy levels are dropping. Denver had a number of years of 8% rent growth. And because we're over building and you can see Denver way over, further down the cycle there at a position 13, our rent growth now is only running about 3%. James: Yeah. So for example, like the city on the hyper supply, I mean going to the recession on the point 14. So what you're looking at is you're looking at the supply that's coming into that city and looking at the demand for that city and that's where you're determining the point 14 for that particular city. Glenn: That's right. Yup. Because when I combined supply and demand, I can then forecast the occupancy level. Okay.   James: Got it.   Glenn: So there were no cities of Memphis, Miami, Orlando, and San Jose. I don't expect them to get anything more than inflation, which is we're right about two percent. James: Oh, you mean rent group, right about 2%.   Glenn: Right. So their rent growth is only going to match inflation.   James: So at point 14 is supposed to be deaccelerating rent growth and recession. It should be like almost negative rent growth. Glenn: 12, 13 and 14 are decelerating rent growth. And point 14 is when rent growth should only be running at the rate of inflation, which if you remember back to your economics class, we have nominal inflation and real inflation or nominal growth and real growth. All that is, is nominal growth if the price of something goes up, that's inflation. So if we have 2% inflation, if you've got like GDP growing at 3%, that's nominal GDP growth. So 3% nominal GDP growth, subtract inflation of 2% and real GDP growth is 1%. James: Got it. So what about at point 11, the cities who are estimated to be at the final phase of expansion, still in expansion where; what is the percentage of expectation of rent growth for that kind of cities? Glenn: Well it will vary by city, but it's probably going to be, well, let's back up one slide there. And when you're at peak occupancy, you've seen historic rent gross as much as here's four and a half, here's almost 5%. This little peak here is that 3%. Okay. So again, and I do this model that you see here individually for each city. James:  Okay. How do we get access to that data to get a rent growth prediction for each city? Glenn: So, well that's what researchers do is we model and project things and I get my historic data from CoStar, the company that does all the major property types and I get supply information, demand information, occupancy levels, rent growth. So I can model every city. James: But your model of forecast is not available for public consumption, that's mainly for your research, I guess? Glenn: This is my forecast report that you're looking at here. And my regular market cycle report I give away free. It's actually on our website at the University of Denver. So if you go to du.edu/burns school, I'm in the Franklin Burns School of Real Estate, scroll of the bottom of the page and you'll see my market cycle forecast so you can get those for free. We sell a subscription to my forecast report that comes out four times a year. It's only a thousand dollars and that money goes into a fund to support research on real estate and sustainability. James: Got it, got it. So my question is on a specific city, for example, I'm buying a deal in Memphis and I'm trying to do a five year projection on my performer to show it my investors and raise money for you. So usually a lot of people use a 3% or 2% rent growth for next five years. But what you're saying is that's not correct, right? Because that's not how it's being forecast.   Glenn: They need to take a look at the city where it is in its cycle and it might be doing better and might be doing worse than that.   James: So how do we get that number rather than saying three or 2% blindly, is there a place where we can go and say it's 3% the next one year but after that it is going to be 1% for year 2 or second year or third year?   Glenn: Yep. So CoStar, you can subscribe to CoStar.   James: Okay.   Glenn: They do projections on all this stuff. City by city property type by property type.   James: Okay. CoStar for projections. Got it. Got it.       Glenn: Okay. Also Jones Lang LaSalle has their own research and forecasting group, so you can go there as well. For your individual investors who probably aren't doing enough to spend that kind of money on research. Most of them are probably working with a broker when they're looking to purchase properties operate the properties, lease the properties, et cetera. When they're talking to a broker, they should ask, do you have CoStar access for your city and your property type. And the broker is allowed to share that information and those forecasts with them. James: Got it, got it. And what about the cap rate? I mean, when we talk about rent growth, deaccelerating it's also meaning cap rate being expanding, right? So is there a place... Glenn: Okay, so we're almost there. Let me just finish this and then we'll jump right over to the financial cycle. Okay, here's retail; and the key thing here is that you can see that we are at the highest level of occupancy ever in retail. People go that doesn't make sense, got all these companies going out of business and everything else. So series is going out of business. What am I students family owns a mall in Macon, Georgia and series goes out of business. They open up the center of roof of the building on one side they put an experience retail, two restaurants, a movie theater and an escape room. On the other side, they're building four stories of apartments on top of the space. So they're actually going to have higher occupancy and rent going forward. We're replacing these department stores with experience retail and remember supply; we're not building a lot of new retail, number one, but we're also repurposing a lot of retail.   So many times a retail center that's not working, convert it to office space or today Amazon is trying to get that last mile delivery to you on the same day, convert that into closed in warehouse space where you can deliver it to someone the same day. So retail is doing well because it's got a low level of demand growth, it does have some. But it has an even lower level of supply growth, hence the high occupancy rate. But you can see that the rent growth is really pretty low too. It's only one and 2% going forward. James: So retail is more of a play off, people have given up on retail and there's not many people building but it's still a demand there that's why the occupancy is much higher. Glenn: Right, right. So again, most of the markets at the peak and then hotels, we are again at the highest occupancy rate we've ever seen. That's because millennials like experiences versus things. So they're doing a lot more travel. And we're in the process because hotels are extremely profitable at that high occupancy rate. We're seeing a lot more new hotels being built. So a lot of markets kind of heading over the top and Austin being one of those, where you're actually putting up a lot of new hotels. So when you think about it, the one property type that's the best in Austin is actually apartments at this point; highest occupancy, highest rent growth. So that's the income side of real estate. All we talked about is occupancies and rent growth. How much income can I get?   James: Yes.   Glenn: Now let's talk about the financial cycle and its capital flows that drive the prices and we look at that as cap rates. So the blue lines is the real estate cycle, the black lines, the capital flow cycle, and it should work as when things aren't very good, not much capital. The line's flat there at the bottom. As things get better, capital goes up. The highest rate of growth is when we go through that 0.8 now yellow where we reach cost feasible rents; capital flow peaks out in the hyper supply phase and then drops off very quickly. Now remember that we've got two types of capital flowing in the real estate. The green shaded area up here is capital flows to existing property. So if you buy a property from me for a higher price than I paid that's more capital flow. The other capital flow at the bottom is capital flows to new construction, adding more buildings in, so producing more properties.  Real estate, I consider it a separate asset class. So we've got stocks, equities, bonds, and commercial income producing real estate. It's about 20% of the marketplace. So for me, as I talk to and have worked with for 25 years, institutional investors, they should have a separate allocation to real estate. You should have a separate allocation to real estate in your retirement account. If you could only do public equities buy rates. Directly you can buy into funds or you can actually own properties yourself. But remember, when you buy a property, you just bought a business. You've got to operate it, you got to rent it, you got to take care of it, you got to maintain it, pay the taxes, you're operating a business. So when we look back over history, here's the history of ten year treasuries, you can see it going from 2% back in the 50's to 15% in 1982 to today, back to 2% with the forecast that it's going to go up but of course for the last 10 years, that's exactly what that forecast has looked like and it's always been wrong.   We've been running in the 2% range since the year 2010. So notice the total return between 1981 and 2017 is 8.4%. That's because as interest rates go down, bond values go up, your bonds appreciate. But if you think bonds are a good place to be today, go to the left hand side and when you go from two to the long-term average of five, eight, the total return has only one nine because if you bought a bond at a 2% interest rate, $1,000 bond at 2% and interest rates go to four and you want to sell that bond, the new buyer is going to want a 4% yield. So they're going to give you $500 instead of a thousand for that bond. So you're going to lose money on your bonds. So that's why today bonds kind of don't make any sense. Real estate versus stocks and bonds. It's only had five years of negative returns versus over 20 for both stocks and bonds, and it is capital flowing. That money coming in that makes a difference. So here's a company, real capital analytics that collects data on every commercial real estate transaction in the US over two point $5 million. The bars go up, the bars go down and their price index, which is along the top there, you can see follows that pretty closely. So as more people buy, prices go up. When people back off, like during the great recession of oh nine prices come down.   James: Is that the international money coming in or is that local money coming in or it's just [37:20unclear] you're easing   Glenn: I will be answering that question in two slides. When we look at the cap rate, which is the simple way to describe that, it's like a bond yield or cash on cash return. Back in 2001 cap rates were around eight to 9% and then as prices went up, cap rates dropped to a low in 2007 of around six to 7%. Great recession happened, property prices drop, cap rates go back up, so you're getting a better cash yield when you buy. Since then cap rates have been coming down and they're down at a low of mainly in the six and a half to 7% range except for apartments which are at five and a half. Now of course hotels are higher because they're riskier at eight and everyone says, well, so interest rates have to go up, therefore cap rates have to go up. Not true. All the historic studies done, and I've done some myself show that the correlation between interest rates and cap rates is no more than about 20% that's not what drives it. It's capital flow.   As a matter of fact just came from a conference where two different real estate economists say we expect cap rates to go even lower next year because there's so much money out there around the world trying to find yield, trying to find income and bonds don't have it. Today the US stock market [38:51unclear] 500 dividend yield is 1.2%. The 10 year treasury, which is risk-free, is 1.7%; corporate bonds are running around three to three and a half and you can buy into properties earning six. So that's quite different isn't it?   James: So what you're saying is the capital is going to continue, I mean your prediction is the climate is going to continue to go down in apartments and any, is it within all asset classes...?   Glenn: Cap rates are most likely going to be staying about where they are or coming in and it depends upon the property or coming down just a little bit. They probably won't go down in retail because people don't believe that retail's coming back yet. So one way to look at this as take the risk free rate of the 10 year treasury, ask how much additional yield income am I going to get over that risk free rate of the 10 year treasury. So that's the spread above the 10 year treasury. Here you can see that the spread was 375 back in 2001 it dropped down to only 150 basis points in 2007 but today you're getting somewhere between 275 and 600 points over the 10 year treasury for taking that additional risk of investing in real estate. So from that standpoint, real estate looks like a very strong buy as an investment and because of that, what we see is real capital analytics collects data from all over the world and this shows money going from one country to another. So at the top you see the United States in 2018, we don't have the 2019 yet numbers yet, sorry; into Spain, put $11 billion into Spain, that was 15% higher than the previous year. Because they believe the Spanish economy has finally figured itself out and is going well. The next one was France coming into the United States with money. $8.8 billion of French investors buying us real estate. The next one, the United States going in the UK, a $7.9 billion, that's a 20% decrease. Why do you think it went down?   James: Because of the Brexit?   Glenn: Yes, everybody has...   James: [41:03unclear]   Glenn: When Brexit happens, the economy in England will go down and hence if the economy slows, occupancy rates will go down and rent rates will drop. So you can see that money moves around the world and the most expensive property in the United States today, would be a class A office building in downtown New York City. It will go for a 3.8% cap rate. In London, the same size class A office building will go for a 2% cap rate.   James: Got it.   James: In Tokyo or Singapore, a class A office building will go for a 1% cap rate. So an English investor looks at the US and says, Hey, I can buy a top quality property for half price and an Asian investor goes, wow, I can buy a property in the US for a quarter of the cost in Asia. So we are the largest economy in the world. We're the safest economy. We have good laws that protect investors. In China you could invest there, but the government, since it's communists, could next year decide that oh, we own everything anyway, we're taking it away from you. So capital is flowing in the United States and I believe that keeps prices high and cap rates low. James: What about this trade war with China? I mean, I know it's a bit cooling down, but it's cooling down and heating up; so how is that going to be impacting the money flow to the US? Glenn: Well we've already hit the first level of agreement on it and it certainly did not hurt our economy in any major way. If you look here down at number seven, China and the United States $8.375 billion up 8% back in 2018 when it was first in process and our president was threatening. Chinese investing in the United States went up not down. Why? Because Chinese investors are trying to get their money out of their country where they thought it might slow down and move it into our country or where it was safer.   James: Correct.   Glenn: Okay. James: So this is a very awesome slide because it shows where all the money flows in the world and you can clearly see that a lot of money coming to the US which is important for capital flow too or real estate prices. Glenn: Right. So here's a slide from NAREIT, the national association of real estate investment trusts; you can find this on their website and they're showing historic cycles at being 17 years long. So the first cycle there from 1972, which is when they start having data through 1989, the green line, the total average return per year for publicly traded rates was 13.9%. The next cycle, 1989 through 2007, just before our great recession total return was over 14% a year. And here we are kind of halfway through the next cycle. 10 years in and so far the average return has been 3.9, but that's because of that big drop during the great recession and you had to recover the money that you lost. So I believe we're kind of mid cycle and a fair amount of expansion to go. James: So we are not going to die of old age I guess. Not because of the cycle is too long and we are due for a correction. Glenn: Correct. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. If you want, we can do a quick summary or any other questions you have? James: I have a few questions. So in terms of development, so in this market cycle, let's say for example in apartments, if you look at the apartment, the market cycle that we put in, we are in hyper supply. I mean, of course you say we have like 10% additional supply it's not because there's no demand, but is this the right time to do development? Because I saw somewhere in your studies that the best time to start your development is 75% on the expansion cycle. If I'm not mistaken. Glenn: Right. I would love to be developing at points six seven eight on the cycle James: That's 0.6 or 67% of the whole cycle on the upward trend before it reached the equivalent, right? Glenn: Well, I know, let's go back to my cycle graph and we want to be, let's go to the apartment one as a matter of fact. So I would like to be developing points 6, 7, 8 and maybe 9 in the cycle. What's happening is a lot of people are over here putting up new properties at 12, 13, and 14. James: So right now, I mean, your chart shows the apartments at the 13, which means it's not the best time to really do development ideas.   Glenn: Correct.   James: And what about people, I mean, some of the investors who are doing like bridge loans or long-term loans. I mean there's pro and con in both, but what would you recommend in this market cycle? Glenn: Well, when you say a long-term note, you mean give me a mortgage on a property? James: Yeah. Getting a mortgage with agency debt or fixed rate long-term versus a bridge loan, which is a short term financing. Glenn: So bridge loans are basically taking the risks that properties being developed or redeveloped and that it will be successful upon completion. Whereas a long-term mortgage you get the first money, so the rents that come in and have to be high enough to pay your mortgage payment and if there's nothing leftover, then the equity investors aren't making any return in those years. So again you can buy an apartment and it most likely is going to cash-flow but it's a full time job to manage a big property, make sure it's done right, and finance it properly and everything else. That's why pretty much every university in the country today has a real estate program. We are actually at university of Denver, the second oldest real estate program in the country started in 1938. Where you are both an undergraduate or graduate and an executive online program so you can be at home and get your master's degree in real estate from us. James: Got it. Got it. Right. Wow really, I should probably look at that. But the other question I have, especially on this chart, why is it not symmetrical? I mean, I know during the recovery and expansion, it's just a longer cycle and update like a slight down. Glenn: Great question; and that's because historically we've had 11 years of up cycle and only three or four years of a down cycle. As a matter of fact, I'll go back to the, one of the slides that I bounced past earlier on, and that is this here you can see previous economic cycles, they last anywhere from 5 to 10 years historically and recessions are normally one to two years long. The great recession at two and a half years was the longest recession that we've seen since the great depression in the 1920s. James: Got it. Got it. And what about the the industrial office and other property types what do you think would try for in the next, I mean other than apartments, among all these property types, what would be the best property type to invest for the next five years? I would say from your perspective. Glenn: Here's the chart. Office has got the longest run in the expansion cycle followed by retail. Power centers doesn't mean that stuff can't sit at the top for a long time too. So if it keeps going, I believe we've got a good five year run of demand for industrial space going forward. James: Got it. By is office being driven by some factor. I mean, technology, right? I mean, a lot of technology people work from home too, right? So I'm not sure where that drive is coming from for office. Glenn: Basically more and more of the jobs in the United States are office using jobs and people start going crazy sitting at home and we're social animals. And so being together with other people and that social interaction actually benefits the work for every company, that's why we work. When you start a company, instead of working on your garage, you can now go and rent some, we work space on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. They charge you plenty for it, but now you've got a space to be in, all the amenities that are necessary there. There's a receptionist, there's copy machines, there's all the different things that you need to be successful; collaboration, conference rooms, all those kinds of things. So most new companies start out by going to you short term office rental space. Last year that was 10% of the demand in office. James: Got it. And what about the Amazon effect? Is that just on the industrial? Because I read somewhere that they own like 25% of the...   Glenn: Last year Amazon rented 25% of all warehouse space, new warehouse space rented in the United States. That's how much they're growing. They opened a 1 million square foot warehouse North of Denver and hired 1500 people.   James: Wow. What about this boom in marijuana and all that happening on some of the coastal cities is that impacting any of these property types? Glenn: The, I'm sorry, the? James: Like, they have this marijuana, right? Like you know like medical marijuana and...? Glenn: So yeah. Well Colorado was one of the first and it created a huge demand for warehouse space here in Denver and drove our rents from $3 to $6 over a two year period. I can see if you went to basically 100% all the old crappy warehouse got rented up to grow marijuana. And since we're one of the first States where marijuana tourism became very big. Now that other States are picking it up, less people are coming and we've had a couple of marijuana companies go out of business and so all of a sudden, and we built a lot of new space for them and so now we're in the hyper supply phase because that economic base industry in Denver is shrinking. James: Got it, got it. What would you advise an investor, let's say for example an apartment investor who are more in the hyper supply stage right now, what would you advise that person to be cautious of as we move forward for the next five years? If keep what? Keep on buying or do you want to be more defensive? Glenn: Well, if you believe that there is a recession coming, then what you want to do is have what we call defensive assets. You want to be in the best markets, the highest, the bigger markets like the ones that I show and the ones that I have in bold and italics. You want to be in higher quality properties that can attract and retain tenets and you want to try and get the longest term leases you can get to bridge you through the next down cycle. James: Got it, got it. And what about tertiary market? Is it a good idea to go into tertiary market looking for yield? Because I know some of the tertiary market is [52:52unclear]? Glenn: Yes, but you have to be careful and very selective. You need to look at what is the economic base industry that's driving the growth in that market. So for instance, an economic base industry produces a good or service it exports outside of the local market that brings money in. So in Detroit, Michigan for decades it was auto, the auto industry did well, so did Detroit. When the auto industry turned down and we got a lot more foreign competition, Detroit became pretty much a ghost town. Now you've got a billionaire, a tech giant who came in and started buying up a bunch of office space in Detroit to run his company out of at next to nothing and hire people in saying, come here and live in oh, by the way, you can go buy an existing house here in Detroit for like 10 or $20,000. So instead of spending 3000 or $4,000 in San Francisco and rent, you can have a mortgage that's only a couple hundred bucks a month. So Detroit is starting to turn around because of the new economic base industry. This tech company creating demand for office and when you create demand for employment, then people buy things. So retail goes up and the demand for rental goes up, it just, it moves everything up and plenty of growth is the number one key thing to look at for demand for real estate. James: Got it. Got it. What about some of the government controls like rent control and some of the cities, some of the States that's happening right now, how is that going to be impacting the cap rate and the rent growth? Glenn Right. so rent control is the government interfering with the free market and it has shown that when that happens it severely restricts supply because no one wants to build if they're going to end up with rent control on their property where they can't raise rents to at least meet inflation. And so every place where that kind of stuff is coming into play, investors aren't buying and property prices are going flat. In the long-term they will hurt the market. It will create exactly the opposite. They're saying, oh, we're trying to make apartments more affordable for people. Well, it does just the opposite. People that are there end up with a lower rent and then they sit on it even when they now have a good job. And I'll give you an example. I have a good friend who owns an apartment building in San Francisco. He has four of his 20 units are rent controlled. One of the people in it was a guy that when he got in, he was in school. Now he is a very wealthy person and he continues since he had it, it can't be released. His rent is less than 25% of what market would be on his property. And he's there maybe one or two nights a month. And my friend keeps asking, why do you rent this for the month when you're only here two nights? He goes, because it's cheaper than a hotel. So it's bad government policy in my personal opinion. James: Yeah. It's crazy [56:25unclear] like, so does that mean some of the cities which doesn't have rent control will have a lot more price run up because a lot of people want to be investing in like for example, in Texas or maybe Florida, which doesn't have a lot of space doesn't have rent control. Would that mean that a lot of people from the East coast or West coast will be investing more on these states? Glenn: Potentially, yes. James: Okay. Okay. So I think I covered most of the questions that was asked in the Facebook group. If audience and listeners, you guys want to join this multifamily investors group in Facebook and we have almost 4,000 people there and now we are recording this as a podcast and a webinar, so you should be able to get the webinar as well as you register. So Dr. Glennn how do people get hold of you and get in touch with you? I believe you mentioned it halfway through, but... Glenn: Right. Yup. So they can go to the university of Denver website, which is du.edu/burnsshool, and a scroll to the bottom and they'll be able to see my cycle reports there. And there I've got my profile and all the other information there. That's the easiest way to do it. James: Awesome. Thank you very much for coming into the show and doing the webinar as well. Thank you very much. Glenn: Okay, thank you. Have a blessed day.   James: Have a good day. Glenn: Bye.

James: Let's get started. One, two, three... Hi, audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Investment Group. Today we are going to be having JC Castello from our Achieve Wealth True Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. And I would like to welcome JC to the podcast. Hey JC, welcome. JC: Hey, thanks, James. Thanks for having me. James: So JC has what? Right now, around 725 units worth around 70 million and he has bought and sold like 1000 over units. And he primarily focuses on DFW and he's in the Bay area. So, did I get all your facts right, JC? JC: Yeah. You got in just about right. That's right. James: So, do you want to tell our audience about, how did you get started? How is your company structured? Because your company structure, it's very interesting for me. So go ahead and do that. JC: Yeah, I mean, how I got started in the multifamily business. I have an engineering degree and I've been working in the technology sector in a past life for about 15 to 20 years in semiconductors. And somewhere along the way, I always had a big passion for real estate. Pretty early on in my semiconductor career, I started buying single-family rentals in the Silicon Valley area and realized that I needed to be able to scale it a lot better because I was so busy with work that managing single-families wasn't all that easy. So I started just going to a lot of networking events, real estate clubs and whatnot, asking a lot of questions of people and I found out about apartments and found out that they were a lot more scalable. And so, I read everything I could. I got my hands in all kinds of books and went to lots of different seminars and training and networked with a bunch of the local investors here in Silicon Valley. I had sold a couple of my single-family homes originally wanted to buy an apartment complex here in San Jose. And I did all the numbers and it was negative cash flow, pretty much from the beginning. And I thought, well if I'm gonna buy for equity because there's no cash flow, I'd rather just keep buying homes because I think homes in Silicon Valley are better equity drivers than an apartment complex. So that led me to really look outside of California for cash flowing apartment investments. And I did a lot of research and everything was telling me that Texas was a great area to go. I mean, this was back in like 2004/5. And so, after a little bit of research and some time passed about 2006/7, I was ready to kinda go and take my money out to Texas and get it going. And so kind of, that's how I got started and that's kind of how my company was born. James: Awesome. Awesome. So, yeah, I was in the Bay area a couple of days back and I'm meeting some of my investors. It's just so crazy, the prices there. And I mean, one of the investors asked me, 'You know, why don't you buy in this area?" I said, "I like to make money from thin air." Then he asked, "How is that?" I said, "I like my tenants to pay for my mortgage." So which means I want it to be cash flowing and I still get cashflow on top of it. So pay the mortgage and get cash flow. So if you buy in the Bay area or even in LA, I mean, a lot of coastal cities, just the cap rate is so low, you know, you basically, appreciation play, which means you buy the deal and you pray that it's going to go up. Right? So, JC: Yeah. And look, I'm not here to tell you or tell anybody that investing in real estate in California is not a good thing. It's actually a very, very good thing. I mean, I own personal homes here in California and various places and they've been great investments for me, but they're not cash flow investments; they're equity plays. And so over the 10, 20, 30 years, absolutely; it's been phenomenally great, including any of the single family rentals that I had in the past. But I like to buy single family homes here in an equity state and I like to buy cash flowing properties for apartments in other more cashflow yielding places like Texas. So that's kind of my investment philosophy. James: Got it, got it. So you started like in 2006, 2007. So at what point of your life was that, were you working at that time and how did you get that aha moment, okay, I need to invest in real estate? JC: Yeah. Well you know, in 2001 and you would know this, James, I think you're an ex tech guy, there was the whole technology bubble burst. And I was several years out of college in a professional working environment, got laid off from an engineering job and that really caused me to do a little bit of reflection in 2001 after September 11 hit. And that's kind of where I had my aha moment, if you will. And right around that time, I read Rich Dad/ Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki, which changed my perspective on things as did I know a lot of other people. And it taught me about assets and liabilities first and foremost. Assets put money in your pocket, liabilities take money out of your pocket. And I realized that even though I had been a young guy that had been successful and, and bought my own single-family home, really, it wasn't putting money into my pocket because it was a liability. I had to pay the mortgage every month. So long story short, I decided that I was going to start investing in rental real estate as I got back into my next technology job, once the sort of 2001 recovery happened and that's what I did. Ever since then, I was like, look, real estate rentals are going to be what the thing that I'm going to do is and I'm pretty passionate about it anyways. I always liked real estate, so that's exactly kind of how I got started on my path. And I worked all the way up at my job until 2011 which is when I effectively left my W2 semiconductor job. I actually also helped start another company up with a couple of my other buddies from my ex-technology company. And so we did a startup company that was successful as well. And we did that from about 2012 to 2018. Actually the company's still going, but I'm no longer part of it. So I like to work really hard. James, I'll tell you that much. James: That's crazy. So, I mean, you are a tech guy. I mean, I didn't know until we talk a few months back on how many similarities we have. I used to be in the semiconductor industry as well. So I mean, why not you looked at stock at that time? I mean a stock used to be like, I mean a lot of engineers, like for me, I was like intrigued with stocks. I was always saying, let me solve the worldwide puzzle here of the stock market. So did you try that as well? JC: Yeah, definitely in my younger years. I mean, I drank the Koolaid like everybody else, you know, I was in love with the stock market. And I saw tech stocks, every day going up like gangbusters. So it was like, okay, let's pick Broadcom, let's pick Cisco, let's pick all these other tech stocks that were going to make us all multi-millionaires. And it was kind of a wild ride because there would be some big ups and then there would be some big downs. And so, it just got really frustrating because I find myself thinking about how our stocks were doing every day and sort of checking in on E-Trade accountants and seeing whether I had made money or lost money. And I just said, look, it's not worth it. I don't want to live like that. So, I think what I've learned since then is, look, I'm not here to say that the stock market isn't a great investment. I think what I'm here to say is that a financial advisor that's worth his salt is going to tell you that you should definitely have a good healthy mix of stocks, bonds, money market, and alternative assets, which real estate certainly fits the bill. And I think that 10 to 20% is about what people recommend that are financial experts in terms of how much you should be allocated to things like real estate. So I'm a big believer that people should never swing too much any one way. Make sure and be a little bit diversified, but certainly, 10 to 20% at least in real estate is a good healthy number. James: Got it. Yeah, I mean, I was intrigued with stocks as well and you know, it's all technical analysis. I did a lot of book reading and trying to solve and you know, Japanese candlesticks books and all that. But I think it works with a lot of fear and emotion. I mean, fear is great, it works with a lot of emotions. Which is, you can say numbers don't lie but in the stock market, the numbers can be manipulated using fear and greed by big institutions and that's where I got caught. Every time I go to stock markets, I lose money. JC: And the other thing too, I think the other thing that's important to understand is, it's not just about how much you're making before tax. One of the things that I think I'd made the mistake of as a younger person was not fully understanding how to invest with maximum tax sheltering and maximum tax advantage. And one of the things that I've seen with real estate investing is that there are huge tax incentives out there. Everything legal that encourages you as a real estate investor to keep doing it. And there are extremely, especially now with the tax cuts and jobs act that was passed and that went into effect in November of 2017. The benefits of the tax sheltering piece of real estate investing is extremely phenomenal. And so I think that the real aha moment is not just that you can invest in real estate and make good cash flow, but it's that you can invest in real estate, make good cash flow, and not pay taxes on that cash flow that you're putting in your pocket. That's really amazing. James: Got it, got it. So, coming back to your transition from a W2 job to a full-time real estate entrepreneur. So you said you started in 2006, but only after quite a number of years. When did you become a full-time person? JC: 2012. James: Okay. So what were you thinking in 2012, beginning January of 2012, what were you thinking and when did you resign and what was that trigger that allowed you...? JC: Well, you know, the trigger was, as I told you, I'm a 'slow and steady wins the race' type of person. My investment philosophy is 'go long, not short'. I always like to take the long route cause I believe in taking as little risk as possible to get where you want to get. So, I stayed with my company and my job for a long time and maybe even longer than I needed to because I also did another company with a couple of other buddies. But what that did was that gave me a real stable base so that I was never taking any risk. And so my route in real estate has never been to take big risks and I apply that same philosophy to our company in the way that we buy properties and the way that we look to partner with investors. We are always going to take the lower risk path. We're not just looking at yields and looking for the highest yields. We're looking for the highest mix of risk-adjusted returns. That's what we're looking for. And so that is I think a fundamental piece of why my journey took a little bit longer, in terms of transitioning away from a W2 job. James: So did you have a goal of a certain income level, a certain percentage of your W2? I mean, you don't have, tell me the percentage, but was that goal that you decided if I hit this much income in real estate, okay, I'm going to go full time into this. I'm okay to let go of my...? JC: Yeah. I mean, I definitely had some numbers in mind and they were, obviously, based on my costs of living. So as soon as I was able to bring in enough free cash flow that was greater than or equal to my cost of living with some margin, then I was comfortable exiting. And so, I think that's an important consideration for anybody that's doing this stuff. And you want to make sure, you know, you don't need to be necessarily significantly positive, but your costs of living, whatever it is, you should really be able to at least cover that. And I'm not talking about with like, you know, I'm talking about just with money coming in from rentals and whatnot, not talking about, you know all the other fees and whatnot that you generate. James: Yeah. Yeah. Correct. I mean, just advice to whoever listening. Sometimes you go for the weekend boot camp and you think that there's no point of working a W2 job. I mean, there's no such thing, right? I mean, real estate is awesome but it takes time to get to a certain level of income. And especially if you have [13:22unintelligible] in life, just don't give up on your work and go into real estate; take it slow and steady and you will get there. I mean, there's a lot of learnings to be done in real estate anyway that you can't learn in a weekend boot camp. JC: It's very, very wise words. And I hope that anybody out there would listen to that. James: Yeah, absolutely. So now you're in California, right? I mean, I don't know which year was this. So now you look at Dallas. Why did Dallas flash in front of your eyes? Why not Phoenix or Austin or Orlando, Tampa? JC: Well, Texas, as a whole. When I was doing my research, one of the big stats that jumped out to me was that I believe it was in 2008...I think it was 2008, Texas became the number two state in terms of the number of Fortune 500 companies headquartered in the state. It actually surpassed California. And before that, I had seen a lot of data that was telling me that this transition was happening from a corporate side. And from a corporate side, as we all know, Texas has a very business-friendly state. And I also saw a lot of migration patterns that were happening that were driving people away from the coastal areas, specifically California, and driving them to Texas. Also to Pheonix but not in the sheer magnitude that they were going to Texas. So really for me, what convinced me to go to Texas was the data and it was the job growth, the population growth. And the other thing that really convinced me was the quality of life that could be had in Texas for a relatively low amount of money. Back in 2006, when I first started buying out there, you could buy a pretty decent home for 150 to $200,000 in Dallas, Fort worth. Now, of course, you know, I had to decide, you know, it wasn't just Texas, it's where you're going to go in Texas. There are basically four major areas you can go; you can go to Houston, you can go to San Antonio, you can go to Austin or you can go to DFW. I chose DFW because Houston, to me, was a little bit more of an oil-based economy so I didn't like being dependent on oil. If the oil was good, everything's good in Houston. If oil goes bad, it can be a little bit difficult. And Austin, I really, really liked; I continue to love Austin. However, I always knew that Austin was like Silicon Valley. The dirt is very expensive, so the cap rates are a little bit lower so they don't cash flow quite as well. But I still do like Austin if I had to say, the second market in Texas. San Antonio is just sort of a little bit slow and steady. There's really no significant job growth, at least not significant, you know, amazingly. And there's slow and steady population growth. So everything in San Antonio is hunky-dory for a long time, but there's no real like superstar momentum there. DFW, on the other hand to me, had a lot of the characteristics that I felt was perfect for an investment home for me. I wanted to be there for 10, 20, 30, 40 years. They've got a very diverse economy, lots of different jobs sectors and they are tops in the nation for job growth, population growth, consistently. And the quality of life there is very, very good. There are 8 million people, 4th largest metroplex in the nation behind New York, one; LA, two and Chicago three. And actually, of those top three, they're all sort of negative population. So meaning, they're losing people in Texas; Dallas Fort worth is gaining. So for all those reasons, I thought back then that this would be a great place for us to go set up shop and I haven't been disappointed. It's been a great run, to be honest with ya. James: Got it. So now you decided on Dallas. What was the first step? I mean, who did you first establish contact with and how did you build your team? JC: Yeah, you know I was a big believer in shadowing people. So I had a couple of friends that I had met and gotten to know in the local Silicon Valley real estate circles who were buying apartments in Dallas. And so, I would shadow them. I would get on a plane and go with them when they would go check on their properties. And because they saw that I was willing to do that, they took me around to the local brokerage shops, Marcus & Millichap and all the other shops and they introduced me to all the brokers. And because these guys were already doing deals and established when the brokers met me, I had a little bit of credibility, not much, but I had more than just if I had come in on my own without them saying that I was a good guy. So that's the way that I got my start in the apartment world in Dallas, coming from California. James: Got it. So, I mean, if I understand your business, you own the asset management, but you also own your own property management company. JC: That's correct. Yeah. We opened up shop in 2013. We integrated the third party operations in house and we formed our own management company and we've been managing our own properties since then. James: So that's really unique because I mean, even for me, we have our own property management company, but we are here in Austin, San Antonio, so we are locals. But how did you do it from California and then you establish a property management company and why did you decide to do that rather than a third-party property management company? JC: Well, the how and the why. The why, I sometimes ask myself why multiple times. But I know after getting through all the hard times and now that we've got a model that works really, really well, I know that it was worth it for us. Because we have a large degree of predictability by having operations in house. I never throw stones at third party management companies because I've walked a mile in their shoes now. And I think it's a difficult business even when you control it yourself. And I think that third party managers, for the most part, are extremely good. I'm not here to say that we have built a significantly better mousetrap, but what we do have is we have a mousetrap that we built. And so, we know the process of how we go to market with it and we know what the numbers are and so, we have a high degree of predictability for our investors. At the end of the day, it's all about making sure that we deliver what we said we're going to do for our investors. And so the predictability piece that we have by having the operations in-house for us is key. How did I do it? You know, it wasn't easy. I think that you have to look for a superstar person that you can find that has enough talent to be able to sort of get this off the ground in the local market that you've built your portfolio in. And I was fortunate enough to find that person through a lot of hard work and some luck. And once I found that person, I knew that it was going to work and that was the big difference for me. James: And when you started in 2013, how many units did you have that you were convinced that you can have your own property management company? JC: It wasn't that many. I think we had maybe four properties, maybe five properties, something like that. James: Like a few hundred units. JC: Yeah. A few hundred units. Yeah, that's right. James: So who was this first person, what was that person's role? I mean, you don't have to name names, but I want to know the role of that person. JC: I mean, they were the VP of Operations. That's what they did. Everything related to operations was what they were responsible for. James: So you hired VP of Operations and from VP of Operation, the other person hired the rest of the crew? JC: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, look, we're only 725 units currently, so we don't necessarily have a bunch of regional managers working for our company and we're set up a little bit differently than sort of your traditional management companies. But what I will say is that you really need that foundational person, that foundational piece if you want to have a successful operation in any one given market. James: Okay. Okay. Got it. But what was that aha moment in 2012 that you said, okay, I can't do this anymore 2013, I'm going to do my own property management? What was that push over the cliff moment that you said, okay, I'm giving up on this? JC: You know, I can't say that there was any one particular thing. I think that it was always our strategy to open up our own shop because we wanted to make sure that we had a high degree of predictability within the operations piece. And that's a very valuable component for our investment partners. Being fully integrated doesn't mean much unless it provides good predictability for returns. And what we've seen is that we've enjoyed a very, very high degree of predictability with having our own operations piece. So we're going to continue to have that as part of our model, but at the same time, we're never completely committed to any one particular thing. So meaning that we have a fiduciary duty to do what's best for our investors. If at any given time we understood that our operations or our management piece wasn't the best strategy, then we would certainly look at divesting that piece. I don't see that happening, but we're always open to making sure that we're doing the best thing for our investors. James: So how frequently do you travel from California to Dallas to manage this operation? JC: Well, I tried to get out there, my wife will say I'm out there all the time and I sometimes look back at my calendar and go, yeah, I think she might be right. But usually, it works out to be about six to eight weeks time, is how long I'm out there. And I'm usually out there for a couple of days and I get back to the home base. James: So six to eight weeks through it the year? JC: Right. James: Got it. Got it. So you've tried maybe like once a month or less than once a month, depends on...? JC: Yeah. And it's really as needed too because I have a pretty good system. So I mean, I can jump on a plane tomorrow morning and so it just depends. I get out there as needed, you know, immediately when needed. James: Okay. So let's go into the operational aspects. So you're in California, your operation management, the whole company is here. You have a VP of Operations, you are sitting that you're not coming to Dallas. So tell me like in a week, how would you manage this operation? Is it through Zoom calls, through weekly meetings, through properties or how do you do your asset management? JC: Well, first of all, asset management is handled by a separate person at our company, at multifamily property group. So we do have an asset management person. And in terms of operations, I think as you rightly pointed out, there's a lot of things that we do with technology these days to make it pretty efficient to be managing from another state; Zoom meeting, like what we're doing here is a great one. Lots of phone calls, lots of emails. And also I'm a big believer in driving the company by key performance indices or indicators. And so KPIs, for us, are a big deal because we pretty much keep on top of the numbers from a day to day basis and we manage according to how the numbers are telling us to manage and we go deep where we see that we're having issues with any one particular area. And so, we have a pretty structured way about how we monitor what's happening on the operations piece. And everybody's got a pretty strict lead defined set of roles and responsibilities, which kind of helps to keep everything in motion even though I'm not in the Dallas area. James: Got it. So how frequent do you look at your financials? JC: How frequently do we look at it? I mean, almost every day. James: Okay, good. So when you look at it everyday, what are the KPIs that you look for to see whether the properties are in the right direction or not? JC: Yeah. The big ones we're going to track are income to budget. We're gonna track expenses to budget, especially repairs and maintenance and CAPEX. A CAPEX, the budget, we're going to track, we're going to track current vacancy and we're going to track future vacancy. We're also going to pay strict attention to resident retention; how many people are actually renewing their leases? One of the things on the operational piece that we've learned along the way is that you have basically with the property, you've got a front door and you've got a back door. The front door is where you lease the new units and you bring the new residents in. And the back door is where you have people either renewing their leases after they've been there for a year or you have them leaving your property. And we like to talk about closing the back door because if we can get people to renew their leases, that is worth literally thousands of dollars in expenses and vacancy and marketing to our profitability. So, I think as operators and as investors, we always want to think about buying a property and renovating it and filling it up with people. But we should more care about keeping the people happy and butts in the seats because that's where we're really going to save our money once the property has been stabilized. It takes about 18 months to 24 months to stabilize a property once you buy it and create the value. But then if you're a longterm holder, like we are, you're holding the property for a long period of time. And that's really dependent on how well you operate, how well you provide customer service and how well you can keep the people renewing their leases. So for us, we really like to focus on resident retention. That's a really big deal for us. James: So that's one of the biggest KPI that you look for, resident retention? JC: Absolutely. James: Making sure that back doors close. So can you tell us like one to two things that you do to keep residents renewing? JC: You know, it's really simple, right? You don't want to get too caught up in a lot of complicated stuff so one of the biggest things that you need to do is follow up with people after work orders. Make sure that they're happy. Make sure that the work order was completed.; first of all, completed. Second of all, was it done right? And third of all was the customer happy with the experience? James: So, I think the resident retention is one of the most important things that you guys look at, especially closing the back door. And can you tell us one to two things that you and your company do to make sure that people keep on renewing or motivated to renew? JC: Yeah, I mean, it's important to focus on from a very high level, really the most what should be obviously simple strategies and have a process in place to make sure that it gets followed through. Like, for example, if there's a worker that's placed, following up with the person with a phone call, the customer, and saying, "Hey, was the work order done to your satisfaction? Did you have a good experience, how did you feel about it?" And that's a big deal because a lot of people that don't have work orders completed the right way are the ones that are gonna end up leaving the property with a bad taste in their mouth. And then a lot of people are actually surprised when we call them and they basically are just happy that we chose to call them and follow up. And that actually makes them so much happier, to begin with. So I think following up on work orders. The other thing is following up after a move in and making sure that the unit was fully functional; if there was something that was missed, making sure that you take care of it. And then the other thing that I think is really important is when it comes time to renew, you need to give the resident enough runway, to listen to them when you want to call them to renew. Because they're always going to have some concerns, either if the rent's going up or something. But normally it's actually, a lot of times it's just, "Hey, you know, I've got a couple of things wrong with my unit and I need you to fix them." And so, you've gotta be able to actually talk to them and understand why they're frustrated and fix those things and then they're willing to renew. So I think basic follow up is really the key. Following up with the resident on some sort of a documented frequency that enables you to keep a pulse on how they're feeling about their experience. James: Got it. Got it. So I presume that most of the deals that you buy, you try to do value add on the apartment, right? I mean, you guys do renovation, you've put in good management and all the smaller things in the interior and exterior, is that right? JC: Yeah, I mean basically you got it right. So number one is, acquire the deal at the right numbers. Number two is, renovate; which includes exterior amenities and unit upgrades. And then number three is, put a great operations team in place. And so those are sort of the three pillars of a successful investment and a successful life cycle of an investment for us at least. James: Got it. So what is the most valuable value add that you think in your mind that gives you the biggest bang for the buck? JC: You know, I really couldn't point to any one thing. What I would say is that your upgrades to your units are really important. Because a lot of people get sort of jaded by the exterior pops, like, you know, put some paint on the walls and stuff. But I've found that unit upgrades are really at the core of what you want to give in terms of your experience to the customers when they're walking through. And then the other thing that's really important is that there's a cohesive feel to the renovations that you do from the exterior; be it the painting or the amenities improvements. One of the things that I think people miss a lot is that they put money into exterior items, but there doesn't seem to be a cohesive feel. It doesn't feel like a clean, unified vision for what you wanted to present to the customer. And I think that's a big deal. It goes all the way down to the color schemes and it goes down to the signage and how that matches with the colors and how it matches with the amenities and also how it flows into the leasing office. You know, do the colors and the vision and what you're portraying with the signage and the exterior, does it match to what somebody is walking into the front door to lease a unit? Furthermore, do the units, sort of, match to the vision of what the exterior is saying? So, I think that it's not just one of these things, it's basically having a holistic approach to how you tie it all together so that it feels like a common vision when you drive to the front door all the way till when you go into the model unit. James: Got it. Interesting. Because you are looking at more of cohesiveness of the whole units and how they feel than a specific item. So let's go to your personal side of it. So I mean, you started in 2006 and then now it's 2019, you bought and sold like thousand units. So you must have a good write on the apartment cycles. So why do you do what you do? JC: Why do I do what I do? That's a good question. I think that ultimately what we're doing here is we're basically building a business that is focused on providing a great value to the community, to the customers, to the people that we rent our units to. I think it sounds cliche, but actually I think not enough people to do what we do actually talk about it. You know, when we come into a property and we invest multiple millions of dollars in the renovations and do the transformation of the property, really what we're doing is we're improving the lives of the community that lives there. And it makes a big difference in, we get told all the time how much they care to see all the stuff that we're doing. And so the first thing is making a difference in the community, I think is what's really, really cool. And we've done that over many, many properties now. So we've gotten to see that time and time again. I think the second thing is, partners. So we work with a lot of amazing partners, contractors, vendors, lenders, lawyers; there's so many that I can go on and on with. But what's really special about what we're doing is that we've developed really close relationships with a lot of these people that have been with us for many years. And so, we've become somewhat of friends with them as well as business associates. So it's really great to kind of see how much our success has impacted their success as well. And sort of a 'rising tide floats all boats things' mentality is where I get a lot of joy, personal satisfaction out of what we've done here. And I think the third thing is really is it's about our investors. I mean, I can tell you personal stories of many people that I'm very good friends with that have come along the ride for us, that we have literally changed their lives because of these great investments that we've been able to do over the years. And so I think that this business is about touching people's lives. Touching people's lives in every single aspect of what we're doing. For me, that's what really makes it fun for me every day. James: Would you do this same role for the next 20 years? JC: Yeah, of course, man. I'm not retiring. I mean, this is great. You know, we've got a great team, we've got a great company. And real estate investing to me it's more of a lifestyle thing too. So to be honest with you, this is something that I believe in doing irrespective of my company. This is sort of a personal belief that real estate investing is a very, very good way to take the money that you're making from whatever method that you're generating it and pump it into something that's going to give you a longterm return. James: Got it. Got it. Was there a proud moment in real estate that you think you will never forget that you can ride it on your tombstone? JC: Yeah. Well, I don't think I'm gonna put anything real estate related on my tombstone. James: Of course not. But if there was something that when you are at a very old age, you're going to think I'm really, really proud that I did that, can you describe that moment? JC: No, I don't think I've gotten there yet, man. I think there's still so much more to be done. You know, any proud moments, I think they're all stepping stones. I'm telling you, every day I wake up and I'm excited about where we're taking the company, things that we're doing to grow the company, new ideas that we've got. And I don't think we've reached our full potential in any way, shape, form, or fashion. James: Okay. no, what I mean is like, did you touch any employee in a certain way that, in terms of changing their life, any tenants, any property that you think that we really did a good job and that I'm really, really proud of that. JC: Yeah. I mean, you know, nothing particular comes to mind. I mean, look, I can give you a million examples, right? But the very last property, for example, that we renovated, I thought that it was the best one we've ever done. And I thought that just seeing the people that have been writing reviews on our property, coming online reviews and whatnot and hearing the feedback that we get from our management or our onsite staff has been so happy that we've made the change with the property. So yeah, that's very rewarding to us for sure. James: Got it. Got it. Top three things that you want to advice newbies who wanna walk your path. JC: I'm only going to give you one. I think it's the most important one. It is 'go long, not short.' Take the long road, do it slow and steady. Don't take unnecessary risks and make sure that you build the foundation and spend your time building a foundation solidly before you try to go too fast. I think that that's a mistake that a lot of people make. And I think that doing it slow and steady is there's a lot of benefits to that. And that's the way that we built our company. James: Got it. Got it. Yeah. I see so many craze out there on people want to do so many big things very quickly in real estate now because it is how the market is right now. So what's your strategy right now in this market cycle? JC: I don't think we really changed our strategy. We remain and always have been. We are opportunistic buyers and we're strategic sellers. I've talked about that before, I did a blog post on that. And the way that we've always seen it is, strategically speaking, if it's the right time to exit an asset, we're going to do it. It's been a great time lately to sell properties. It's also been a great time to keep properties, be a net keeper. We talk about that too. Opportunistically buying simply means that if we find a great deal, we don't care whether it's a hot market or a down market or a sideways market. If it's a great deal and the numbers work, we're going to pull the trigger. We know exactly what we're looking for. We've been around long enough to know that when we see that type of a deal and we've got the right relationships in place with the brokerage shop to do it. We're gonna make it happen because what we've seen is we've had some of our best acquisitions in what some people would call a seller's market or on a hot market, an upmarket. And so I think being an opportunistic buyer and always being ready to strike if the right numbers present themselves is where you need to be positioned. James: Got it. Got it. Before we end, I've asked you this question, which is completely different from what other questions I asked and normally it's not in my mind. But you are from California, investing in Dallas so you know a lot about these two markets. So do you think when recession hits...I mean, that's already a lot of people moving to Texas and Florida and maybe Phoenix. Do you think when the recession happened, there's going to be a lot more people moving... JC: Moving to Texas? James: Yes. I mean all this Texas and Florida and other markets. JC: Well, I don't know the answer to that question per se. But what I can tell you is this; it's becoming increasingly difficult to be a very smart college graduate in Silicon Valley and be able to see yourself making a life out here. And so even now with the job market being pretty decent, people are still leaving. And they're leaving because they just can't see themselves being willing to spend so much money to buy a house here, on top of the student loans that they've got and on top of the cost of living that they've got with high rents and whatnot, how do you save to buy a home here? And so, I don't think that that's going to change and I don't think that it matters whether we have a blip on the radar with the recession. The fundamentals are such that it's creating a very big incentive for people to move out, to go to other states where they can look to buy a home with a little bit more ease, can actually afford to pay rent with a little bit more ease. And so it's naturally speaking, we, as a company, believe that there's going to be continual growth. And in markets like Dallas Fortworth right now where rents are still, even as they'd gone up are still below the median affordability across the nation. Obviously, Silicon Valley is on the opposite end of that spectrum with San Francisco and San Jose, you got some of the highest rents in the nation. It's very unaffordable for how much people make here. So I personally think that the migration away from the coastal communities is going to continue. I don't see that trend stopping anytime soon. James: Yeah. No, I'm not saying it's going to stop. I think it's going to double or triple because when the recession happens, I mean, people are gonna lose jobs. And where your house mortgage is fixed, the house mortgage not gonna reduce. But if you are losing your job, people are gonna take that equity and at least move to cheapo States, like where they can pay less in mortgage and buy better houses and lead a better life, I guess, in terms of house expenses. Because I read some article that on average in the US, somebody's paying like, 60% of their pay going to mortgage. I think it's much higher in the Silicon Valley and Bay area. So what's the point of living and paying 80% to the house? There's a lot of other things you want to enjoy. JC: I agree. I agree. I mean, that's exactly why we're moving our investments out there to places like Texas for sure. I completely agree with that. James: Got it. Got it. Alright. JC, tell our audience how to get hold of you and if you want to give your contact information. JC: Yeah. If anybody out there wants to check us out, they can go to our website, multifamilypropertygroup.com. But more importantly, I actually host a video podcast with one of my buddies, Paul Peoples. It's a weekly show, it's called the Apartment Investors Show. So if you wanna actually see us in action, talking about how to make smart investments in multifamily, you can go to YouTube and search for the Apartment Investors Show. And we've got a whole host of great curated videos where we bring in experts in many different facets of multifamily investing. And you might learn a thing or two if you go to that, to our show. James: I'm sure that everybody's going to learn a lot of things because I've seen some of the videos. It was really good. JC: Thank you. James: Awesome, JC. That's it. Thanks for coming on the show. And happy that you add a lot of value to our audience and listeners. JC: Yeah, thanks a lot for hosting. I really appreciate it. I had a good time. James: Thank you. Bye. JC: All right, bye-bye.

Hello, everyone! Listen in to our first interview with James Like and Real Estate success Tanner Milner as he shares some of his methods and shortcomings! Listen in for amazing value and tips every week!

With guest co-host Brett McMullen, host Michael Owen interviews James Like about how and why he got into flipping real estate.  From "poop to profits" can be a reality for flipping houses for profit.

Sick of putting on your best suit for a listing appointment only to walk away empty handed? Realtor James Like has a suggestion for you: stop trying so hard to impress potential clients. For years, James has gone to listing appointments wearing his favorite fishing shirt and a pair of flip flops, and he claims it helps business rather than hurting it. Don’t believe him? Well, in the last 12 months, his team has sold 150 homes, so he’s obviously doing something right. Catch today’s podcast to learn more about James’ approach to real estate, including some awesome strategies for getting new contacts and staying in touch with past clients. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices