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Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Adi-lila 7.20-21:sei pañca-tattva mili' pṛthivī āsiyāpūrva-premabhāṇḍārera mudrā ughāḍiyāpāṅce mili' luṭe prema, kare āsvādanayata yata piye, tṛṣṇā bāḍhe anukṣaṇaThe characteristics of Kṛṣṇa are understood to be a storehouse of transcendental love. Although that storehouse of love certainly came with Kṛṣṇa when He was present, it was sealed. But when Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu came with His associates of the Pañca-tattva, they broke the seal and plundered the storehouse to taste transcendental love of Kṛṣṇa. The more they tasted it, the more their thirst for it grew.Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Adi-lila 7.22:Śrī Pañca-tattva themselves danced again and again and thus made it easier to drink nectarean love of Godhead. They danced, cried, laughed and chanted like madmen, and in this way they distributed love of Godhead.Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Adi-lila 7.23:In distributing love of Godhead, Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His associates did not consider who was a fit candidate and who was not, nor where such distribution should or should not take place. They made no conditions. Wherever they got the opportunity, the members of the Pañca-tattva distributed love of Godhead.Relatore: Sua Grazia Anuttama PrabhuQuesta conferenza è tratta dai libri e insegnamenti di A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Visita ora la nostra pagina https://www.prabhupadadesh.com/libri e scopri i libri che puoi avere con una libera donazione, direttamente a casa Tua. Spediamo ovunque Tu desideri.Tutte le domeniche dell'anno, a partire dalle ore 17:00, la comunità Hare Krishna di Albettone apre le porte ai visitatori con una gioiosa festa che prevede incontri culturali che affrontano tematiche di attualità tenendo presente i millenari insegnamenti della cultura dei Veda, i più antichi testi sapienziali conosciuti dal genere umano.In un'atmosfera intrisa di cordialità e devozione, gli ospiti possono apprendere gli insegnamenti del bhakti-yoga che include lo studio della filosofia e della spiritualità dell'India classica, la meditazione, la musica sacra e l'arte della cucina vegetariana.Ogni serata si conclude con l'offerta di gustose preparazioni vegetariane!L'ingresso è libero. Per informazioni visita il nostro sito https://www.prabhupadadesh.comVuoi fare una domanda? Scrivici a contatta@prabhupadadesh.com
Guests: Emma Sharma, Meghan Ellis Smith, Fernando Odio, Chelsy Rafael, Isabelle White – aka Team ZenithHost: Phil StreetWhat's Inside:The Edge Hotel School students who beat the Swiss at their own gameFrom cruise ship dreams to CEO goalsThe EM Cup – Europe's most competitive hospitality battlePublic speaking disasters, bonding breakthroughs, and backstage mind gamesHow Team Zenith went from forgotten intro to unforgettable championsA story of belief, banana-shaped confidence curves, and near-chokehold celebrationsTopics Covered:How each student found their way to hospitality (spoiler: not one dull route)Why public humiliation at a student conference was actually a blessingWhat it takes to pitch to 500 people and survive a Dragon's Den Q&AThe intense selection process (TikToks, debates, interviews – they did it all)The Triangle Hands legend and branding brilliance of Team ZenithWhy realistic ideas beat Swiss-level fantasy pitchesHighlight Moments:“Alex said if we didn't win, he'd quit his job.” “We told the other teams we had no idea what we were doing. Classic mind games.” “I said we were going to win… but I completely forgot my lines!” “Winning felt amazing. Nearly died from a celebratory hug, but amazing.” A massive thank you to the Edge Hotel School (And previous guest Adrian Martin) for setting this up. Hospitality Meets sends heartfelt congratulations to Team Zenith for this extraordinary achievementEnjoy!This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis: Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
'Nu ik zoveel over de dood heb nagedacht, durf ik te zeggen dat ik er niet bang meer voor ben.' Een van de vele indringende zinnen uit Op een andere planeet kunnen ze me redden, het nieuwe boek van Lieke Marsman. En wát een boek is het. Lieke Marsman – voormalig Dichter des Vaderlands – heeft een zeldzame, ernstige vorm van kanker. De dood zit haar op de hielen, zo schrijft ze, en dat verandert alles – ook haar wereldbeeld. Ze is (of was?) een rationele atheïst die niets moest hebben van God of geloof. Maar toen kreeg ze een ervaring. In haar boek doet ze verslag van een filosofische zoektocht, vol gedachten over God, geloof, bijna-doodervaringen en ook… ufo's. Is dit escapisme of een ingrijpende verandering? David Boogerd spreekt Lieke Marsman uiteraard samen met vast gast theoloog Stefan Paas, hoogleraar aan de VU in Amsterdam en de Theologische Universiteit Utrecht. We gaan weer live met De Ongelooflijke! Donderdagavond woensdagavond 26 juni zijn we live in de Nieuwe Buitensociëteit in Zwolle. Kaarten zijn te boeken via eo.nl/ongelooflijke (https://meer.eo.nl/de-ongelooflijke-podcast).
Klik hier voor info over kopen en verkopen van vastgoed in Nederland en Dubai: https://lotgenotenpodcast.nl/RD-Vastgoed-371a
Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.Welcome to BeQuranic.Today is Monday, the 24th of Ramadan.That means tonight will be the eve of the 25th of Ramadan.And Rasulullah ﷺ said in a very well-known hadith:“Search for Laylatul Qadr in the last ten nights, on the odd nights.”So tonight is one of the last ten odd nights – it could be Laylatul Qadr.InshaAllah, let's make the most of this night.
In this episode of FP&A Tomorrow, host Paul Barnhurst (aka the FP&A Guy) welcomes Glenn Snyder, a seasoned FP&A leader with over 20 years of experience. Glenn shares insights on financial planning and analysis, leadership strategies, and building effective business partnerships. He discusses the keys to driving business impact, managing teams, and navigating career growth in FP&A.Glenn Snyder is a Senior Director at Riverrun Consulting, specializing in interim financial leadership. With a career spanning financial services, fintech, SaaS, private equity, and more, he has held leadership roles at Franklin Templeton, Visa, Charles Schwab, and Digital Realty. Glenn is also an author, educator, and board member, passionate about mentoring finance professionals and improving FP&A effectiveness.Expect to Learn:The key elements of great FP&A and how it drives executive decisionsHow to balance company goals with employee career developmentStrategies for building strong business partnerships in FP&AThe role of automation and efficiency in FP&A reporting and analysisHow to successfully transition into a new leadership roleOvercoming resistance from business leaders and earning trust in financeThe importance of storytelling and data visualization in financial reportingHere are a few relevant quotes from the episode:“The best leaders give credit to their teams and create opportunities for them to shine.” - Glenn SnyderYour career growth is your responsibility. Stay curious, stay connected, and keep learning.” - Glenn Snyder“You don't have to be the smartest person in the room, but you must be the most adaptable.” - Glenn SnyderIn this episode, Glenn Snyder shared his expertise on what makes FP&A impactful, how to lead finance teams, and the importance of strong business partnerships. He emphasized that great FP&A professionals don't just report numbers, they drive decisions, build trust, and continuously improve processes. Being proactive, investing in relationships, and focusing on delivering insights, not just reports, are key. Success in FP&A comes from adapting, influencing, and always adding value.Operator's Guild:Operators Guild is where the best CEOs, CFOs, VPs of finance, and BizOps leaders in the business connect, network, and grow together. Built by operators for operators, this members-only community is home to more than 1000 of the most elite high-growth operators in the world. Experience connection and knowledge share with professionals who understand you like no one else does. Learn more and apply at https://bit.ly/3F6sghSFollow FP&A Tomorrow:Newsletter - Subscribe on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=6957679529595162624 Follow Glenn:LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/glenntsnyder/Follow Paul: Website - https://www.thefpandaguy.com LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguyFP&A Community Hub: Tired of searching for answers and sifting through sales pitches? The FP&A Hub is your go-to online community where finance professionals...
How to Build a Career in FP&A | Finance Jobs, Skills & Growth InsightsFinancial Planning & Analysis (FP&A) is one of the fastest-growing fields in finance, but many professionals don't fully understand what the role entails. In this episode of CFI's Careers in Finance series, we sit down with Mimi Hu, Director of Trade Finance & Marketing, to explore what FP&A professionals actually do, how to break into the field, and the skills that drive success in corporate finance.What You'll Learn in This Episode:How networking and coffee chats open doors in financeWhat FP&A professionals actually do (beyond just budgeting!)The difference between FP&A and investment banking career pathsEssential skills for FP&A success, from Excel to financial storytellingHow FP&A teams support corporate strategy and M&A decisionsThe impact of economic trends, tariffs, and retail margins on FP&AThe best software tools for FP&A professionals (Excel, Power BI, SAP)Why This Episode Matters:FP&A is more than just number crunching—it's about business partnership, strategic planning, and driving financial insights. Whether you're a finance student, an analyst looking to transition, or exploring leadership roles in corporate finance, this episode provides real-world insights and career advice from an experienced FP&A leader.Timestamps:00:00 – Introduction: Why FP&A is a top finance career choice01:34 – The role of networking & coffee chats in finance career growth02:30 – Understanding what FP&A professionals actually do06:21 – How careers evolve in finance, accounting, and strategy09:07 – From startups to corporate finance: Mimi's journey15:46 – How economic trends impact FP&A decision-making25:22 – How FP&A teams partner with corporate development & M&A teams30:34 – Essential skills for FP&A professionals40:20 – Best software for FP&A analysts (Excel, Power BI, SAP)45:34 – The future of FP&A and career growth opportunitiesResources & Links Mentioned:Learn more about CFI's FP&A courses → https://cfi.to/uh9DNLinkedIn → Corporate Finance Institute®Instagram → @corporatefinanceinstituteSubscribe & Never Miss an Episode!Join us for expert insights on finance, FP&A, and financial modeling every week.#FP&A #FinanceCareers #FinancialModeling #CorporateFinance #CFILearning #FinanceJobs #Networking
Recording of an on site event that took place at University of Vienna on February 28.Programme:14:00: Welcome/Opening remarks byUniv.-Prof. Dr. Nikolaus ForgóHead of the Department of Innovation and Digitalisation in Law of the University of Vienna14:15-15:30: Part I - AI GovernanceKeynote byDr. Klaus SteinmaurerExecutive Director at the Telecommunications and Postal Services at Rundfunk und Telekom Regulierungs-GmbH, Viennafollowed by a panel, moderated byClara Saillant, LL.M.Research AssociateDepartment of Innovation and Digitalisation in Law of the University of Viennawith contributions fromMMag. Elisabeth WagnerDeputy Commissioner of the Austrian Data Protection AuthorityProf. Dr. Peggy ValckeCo-Director of Centre for IT & IP Law at KU Leuven,Executive Board Member at theBelgian Institute for Postal Services and Telecommunicationsfollowed byDiscussion and Q&A15:45-17:15: Part II - AI LiteracyKeynote byDr. Elora Fernandes (remote)Postdoctoral Researcher at Centre for IT & IP Law at KU Leuvenfollowed by a panel, moderated byUniv.-Ass. Mag. Adriana WinkelmeierDepartment of Innovation and Digitalisation in Law of the University of Viennawith contributions fromCeyhun Necati Pehlivan, LL.M.Counsel and Head of Technology, Media Telecommunications and Intellectual Property Group at Linklaters, MadridEditor-in-chief of Global Privacy Law Review at Wolters KluwerDr. Jeanette GorzalaVice Chair, AI Board of the Austrian GovernmentFounder, ACT AI NOWDr. Lukas FeilerPartner at Baker McKenzie, ViennaDr. Sonja Dürager, LL.M.Partner at bpv Hügel, Salzburgfollowed byDiscussion and Q&AThe increasing integration of artificial intelligence (AI) systems into various aspects of our daily lives continue raising concerns about their potential adverse effects on society, democracy, fundamental rights, and the rule of law. In response, various governance frameworks have emerged across different jurisdictions to address the challenges posed by AI. Notably, the European Union's AI Act, which entered into force on 1 August 2024, stands out as the first legislation of its kind to introduce comprehensive rules governing the development and deployment of AI systems in the EU. However, understanding the complexities and nuances of this legislation remains a significant challenge.The Department of Innovation and Digitalisation in Law of the University of Vienna is therefore delighted to invite you to the first event in a series of three dedicated to exploring the implications, opportunities, and challenges presented by the AI Act. The event series is organised on the occasion of the launch of the books "EU Artificial Intelligence (AI) Act: A Commentary" and "AI Governance and Liability in Europe: A Primer" by Wolters Kluwer, edited by Ceyhun Necati Pehlivan, Nikolaus Forgó and Peggy Valcke. The first event of the series in Vienna will bring together leading experts, academics and policymakers in the field to discuss AI literacy measures and the governance structure under the AI Act. The next two events in Brussels and Madrid will be further dedicated to different aspects of the AI Act, providing a comprehensive overview of and encouraging diverse dialogue on the new regulatory framework for AI in the EU.Speakers: Link: https://id.univie.ac.at/news-und-events/detailansicht-news-und-events/news/untangling-the-eu-artificial-intelligence-act-ai-literacy-and-governance-1/
Jezus volgen en hardstyle muziek maken. Het zijn de twee passies van DJ Sefa. De ene zondag is hij in de kerk, de andere zondag staat hij voor duizende hardstyle fans te draaien en gaat het dak eraf. Hij is deze week bij Joram Kaat en Talitha Muusse in de Life Rules podcast om te vertellen over zijn zoektocht naar Jezus en de keuzes die hij maakt. DJ Sefa groeit op in een gezin zonder geloof, als tiener is hij een felle atheïst. Hij ontdekt zijn talent voor muziek en maakt carriére in de wereld van 'de hardere stylen' zoals hij dat zelf noemt. Als hij in aanraking komt met de klassieke muziek van Bach en oudere liederen zoals de Psalmen, gaan er deuren naar het christelijk geloof open.
Wat is atheïsme? Een groot deel van de Nederlandse ongelovigen noemt zich atheïst. Is het simpelweg de afwezigheid van geloof, of is het een levensbeschouwing met eigen tradities, overtuigingen en gemeenschapszin? En wat kunnen atheïsten en gelovigen van elkaar leren? Kom luisteren naar theoloog Rik Peels en religiewetenschapper Lena Richter en ontdek hoe een wereld zonder God eruitziet. Is atheïsme ook een geloof? | Lezing en gesprek met theoloog Rik Peels en religiewetenschapper Lena Richter | Donderdag 5 september 2024 | 20.00 – 21.30 uur | LUX, Nijmegen | Radboud Reflects en Faculteit der Filosofie, Theologie en Religiewetenshappen Lees het verslag: https://www.ru.nl/services/sport-cultuur-en-ontspanning/radboud-reflects/nieuws/is-atheisme-ook-een-geloof-lezing-en-gesprek-met-theoloog-rik-peels-en-religiewetenschapper-lena-richter Like deze podcast, abonneer je op dit kanaal en mis niks. Bekijk de video: https://youtu.be/J2syvoHX4oc Bekijk ook de agenda voor nog meer verdiepende lezingen: www.ru.nl/radboud-reflects/agenda Wil je geen enkele verdiepende lezing missen? Schrijf je dan in voor de nieuwsbrief: www.ru.nl/radboud-reflects/ser…ief-radboud-reflects
Comment on this episode by going to KDramaChat.comToday, we'll be discussing Episode 1 of See You In My 19th Life, the hit K Drama on Netflix starring Shin Hye-sun as Ban Ji-eum, Ahn Bo-hyun as Moon Seo-ha, Ha Yoon-kyung as Yoon Cho-won, Ahn Dong-goo as Ha Do-yoon, and Cha Chung-hwa as Kim Ae-kyung. We discuss:The songs we featured in this episode:Remember by Kim Jin ahSilence by Sunwoo jung-aThe reaction of our listeners to our choice of show for Season 10The characters we first get introduced to: Ban Ji-eum, Moon Seo-ha, Ha Do-yoon and Kim Ae-kyung.The concept of reincarnation.The Korean concept of inyeon, which roughly translates to providence or fate.The three elements of flamenco.When Kim Ae-kyung began to believe that Ban Ji-eum was the reincarnation of her uncle.The story of how Yoon Ju-won met Seo ha, got to know him, and died on his birthday.Ban Ji-eum's mission to see if Moon Seo-ha is alive and ultimately be with him.The ages of our characters in the different timeframes.The importance of pools to Moon Seo-ha.How Ban Ji-eum finally meets Moon Seo-ha at the MI Grand Hotel and later applies for a job.Ban Ji-eum's audacity in asking Moon Seo-ha if he would date her.How we have so many K Drama elements in this episode!The shows we're watching now.Season 10 is off to a great start! Thanks for listening! ReferencesSunwoo Jung-a on SpotifyKim Jin-a on SpotifyOn ReincarnationThe Symbols of Longevity in Korean Art and Culture – ArtinKoThe Turtle Ship - NCTAsiaPast Lives: This untranslatable Korean word for eternal love has ancient Buddhist roots
Wat is de toekomst van het atheïsme? Het militante atheïsme van weleer, aangevoerd door denkers als Richard Dawkins en Christopher Hitchens, lijkt uit het publieke debat verdwenen. Stine Jensen pleit daarom voor een nieuw atheïsme: strijdbaar, maar empathisch. Want de wereld heeft goddelozen nodig.Bij te veel hete maatschappelijke hangijzers houdt het atheïsme zich tegenwoordig afzijdig, betoogt Jensen in haar nieuwe boek Goddeloos. Of het nu gaat om boa's en boerka's, weigerambtenaren, seksuele voorlichting of onverdoofd slachten, het ongelovige geluid is te weinig hoorbaar in het debat.Samen met Stine Jensen onderzoeken we daarom de contouren van een nieuw soort atheïsme. Waar staat de atheïst voor en waarom is dat belangrijk? Is het atheïsme slechts gestoeld op de ontkenning van andermans geloofsbeelden of is er ook een positief verhaal te vertellen? En hoe komen atheïsten – bij gebrek aan een kerk – samen om hun overtuigingen te belijden?In samenwerking met Nieuw Licht.Zie het privacybeleid op https://art19.com/privacy en de privacyverklaring van Californië op https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.Zie het privacybeleid op https://art19.com/privacy en de privacyverklaring van Californië op https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
aThe episode many have been waiting for. Tune in for an epic conversation as our host Chris Richards sits down for a conversation with his daughter Ella as they share the detailed story of Chris's 2024 Maine Moose Hunt. Lots of laughs, a little truck drama, "renaming" of a well known Maine logging road, cuteness beyond measure and a message about getting back to our roots in hunting and focusing on the overall experience are all key take-a-way messages that Chris shares from his perspective. All capped off with the harvest of a moose affectionately now known as the "Core Memory Bull".
Here we join Clone Force 99 in their final season trying to unfold the mysteries that tie Omega to the Emperor's secret plan Necromancer. Be sure to stay up to date on our social media! Click the link below to join us on discord and to check out all of our cool merch! linktr.ee/thehothspot Theme credit to William Maytook https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoHnBJFdJ7EgFqe0ZwQ3ADA
Op z'n 11e ging Robbert Zandbergen al naar de bibliotheek om filosofische boeken te lezen. Vanaf de middelbare school zette zijn interesse in filosofie zich om in een giftig antireligieus denken. Nu is hij terug van weggeweest, zoals het hij zelf omschrijft. En wel zó geleidelijk, dat hij het bijna niet doorhad.
Op z'n 11e ging Robbert Zandbergen al naar de bibliotheek om filosofische boeken te lezen. Vanaf de middelbare school zette zijn interesse in filosofie zich om in een giftig antireligieus denken. Nu is hij terug van weggeweest, zoals het hij zelf omschrijft. En wel zó geleidelijk, dat hij het bijna niet doorhad.
Lauren Pisciotta, a former assistant to Kanye West, has accused him of drugging and sexually assaulting her during a studio session in 2021, which was co-hosted by Sean "Diddy" Combs. Pisciotta alleges that she was given a drink laced with an unknown drug, leaving her disoriented and impaired. She claims to have blacked out after consuming the drink and only learned years later that she had been assaulted. According to Pisciotta, West later admitted that they "hooked up" at the event, a revelation that shocked her as she had no memory of the incident.In addition to these allegations, Pisciotta also claims West subjected her to sexual harassment throughout her employment. She described instances where West sent her explicit messages and photos, and even forced his way into her hotel room in 2021, attempting to assault her. Pisciotta's lawsuit, which was initially filed for wrongful termination, was amended to include these new claims of sexual assault and harassment, further complicating West's ongoing legal issues.(commercial at 8:27)to contact me:bobbycapucci@protonmail.comsource:LAUREN PISCIOTTA vs. KANYE WEST, ET AL. - Adobe cloud storage
In deze aflevering gaan Esther Noordermeer, Paul Cliteur, Henk Hakvoort en Mienke de Wilde met elkaar in gesprek over de basis van geloof in je persoonlijke leven, en de wereld waar we nu in leven. Hoe is ieders blik op de tegenwoordige samenleving en hoe ziet de toekomst er voor ons uit? Een boeiend debat dat je niet wilt missen!website Esther Noordermeer :https://www.enoordermeer.nl/website Henk Hakvoort :https://dezedagen.com---Deze video is geproduceerd door Café Weltschmerz. Café Weltschmerz gelooft in de kracht van het gesprek en zendt interviews uit over actuele maatschappelijke thema's. Wij bieden een hoogwaardig alternatief voor de mainstream media. Café Weltschmerz is onafhankelijk en niet verbonden aan politieke, religieuze of commerciële partijen.Waardeer je onze video's? Help ons in de strijd naar een eerlijker Nederland, vrij van censuur en Steun Café Weltschmerz en word Stamgast!https://www.cafeweltschmerz.nl/maandelijks-doneren/Wil je meer video's bekijken en op de hoogte blijven via onze nieuwsbrief? Ga dan naar: https://www.cafeweltschmerz.nl/videos/Wil je op de hoogte worden gebracht van onze nieuwe video's? Klik hierboven dan op Abonneren!
In deze aflevering gaan Esther Noordermeer, Paul Cliteur, Henk Hakvoort en Mienke de Wilde met elkaar in gesprek over de basis van geloof in je persoonlijke leven, en de wereld waar we nu in leven. Hoe is ieders blik op de tegenwoordige samenleving en hoe ziet de toekomst er voor ons uit? Een boeiend debat dat je niet wilt missen!website Esther Noordermeer :https://www.enoordermeer.nl/website Henk Hakvoort :https://dezedagen.com---Deze video is geproduceerd door Café Weltschmerz. Café Weltschmerz gelooft in de kracht van het gesprek en zendt interviews uit over actuele maatschappelijke thema's. Wij bieden een hoogwaardig alternatief voor de mainstream media. Café Weltschmerz is onafhankelijk en niet verbonden aan politieke, religieuze of commerciële partijen.Waardeer je onze video's? Help ons in de strijd naar een eerlijker Nederland, vrij van censuur en Steun Café Weltschmerz en word Stamgast!https://www.cafeweltschmerz.nl/maandelijks-doneren/Wil je meer video's bekijken en op de hoogte blijven via onze nieuwsbrief? Ga dan naar: https://www.cafeweltschmerz.nl/videos/Wil je op de hoogte worden gebracht van onze nieuwe video's? Klik hierboven dan op Abonneren!
Hoe is de eerste levende cel ontstaan? Wat is de oorsprong van het leven? Dit zijn vragen waarvan veel mensen denken dat het antwoord wel bekend is binnen de kaders van de evolutietheorie. Niets is minder waar. In deze video betoog ik dat het "ontwerp-argument" van William Paley volop van toepassing is op het complexe systeem van de eerste levende cel. Nota bene: deze video is bedoeld als een interne kritiek op het naturalistisch wereldbeeld. Dat ik verwijs naar concepten (zoals de zeer oude leeftijd van de aarde) die binnen dit wereldbeeld vaak door mensen worden uitgedragen om een interne kritiek te geven, betekent niet dat ik deze concepten accepteer. Ik sta voor de bijbelse waarheid van een bijzondere schepping zoals weergegeven in Genesis 1-2.13-delige serie van dr. James Tour over de problemen binnen de 'abiogenese':https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71dqAFUb-v0Muziek: Khi Rho Beats
Atheïsten, agnosten en moslims maken dankbaar gebruik van de hypersceptische, antichristelijke boeken van Bart Ehrman. In een recente comment van Jacob-Carl Pauw onder een van mijn video's noemde hij, in navolging van Ehrman, dat er allerlei documenten circuleerden in het vroege Christendom met verschillende versies van Jezus. Hij noemt expliciet het evangelie van Thomas. Bart Ehrman suggereert in zijn boek "Lost Christianities" dat 2e eeuwse documenten zoals het evangelie van Thomas net zulke goede kandidaten zijn voor het verkrijgen van betrouwbare informatie over het leven en de woorden van Jezus en de Apostelen als de Nieuwtestamentische canonieke documenten. In deze video lopen we enkele van zulke documenten langs om te laten zien waarom die historisch bezien niet in dezelfde categorie thuishoren. Nuttige literatuur:Irenaeus; Against Heresies; 2e eeuw na Christus; https://amzn.eu/d/8Yk8wYOApostolische vaders deel 1 en deel 2; https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/apostolische-vaders-deel-1/1001004011727111/Köstenberger Andreas J. (auteur), Michael J. Kruger (auteur), I. Howard Marshall; The Heresy of Orthodoxy: How Contemporary Culture's Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity; 2010Michael J. Kruger; Canon Revisited: Establishing the Origins and Authority of the New Testament Books; 2012Nuttige debatten:Bart Ehrman vs. Daniel Wallace Debate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRHjZCKRIu4Bart Ehrman vs. James White Debate deel 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moHInA9fAsIBart Ehrman vs. James White Debate deel 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2Mp4v8VQwQNuttige video:Dr. James White Exposes Bart Ehrman's Biblical Fallacies - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD7kMRoLJkU&t=3204sMuziek:Khi Rho BeatsSommigen vragen er wel eens naar, maar je kunt mijn bediening 'Christelijke Apologeet' niet financieel steunen. Wellicht wil je overwegen in plaats daarvan een kind te ondersteunen via Compassion? https://www.compassion.nl/ Gods zegen! Chris
Er is iets aan het veranderen in het debat over geloof en ongeloof, merken filosofen Stine Jensen (atheïst) en Rik Peels (christen). Ze staan al jaren aan de frontlinie van het religiedebat, wat zien ze gebeuren? Rik onderzocht in zijn nieuwe boek 'Leven zonder God' het atheïsme, en dat gaf hem als christen nieuwe inzichten. Stine raakte erdoor geïnspireerd, maar heeft ook vragen. Dat komt goed uit, want wij hebben een podcast! Hoe voer je een goed gesprek over elkaars (on)geloof? Hoe belangrijk zijn argumenten voor de vraag of God wel of niet bestaat? Hoe kan het dat weinig vrouwen atheïst worden? En is onze toekomst atheïstisch of niet? Stine Jensen is bijzonder hoogleraar Publieksfilosofie aan de Erasmus Universiteit en Rik Peels is hoogleraar godsdienstfilosofie aan de Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam. Helaas geen Stefan Paas deze week, want dit gesprek was opgenomen tijdens zijn vakantie.
It's the final week of our special Treasury Career Corner LIVE feature series! The last of our feature episodes was recorded LIVE in Greece with three great treasury professionals who each have extensive experience in treasury and provide valuable insights into their successful treasury careers.Our three fantastic guests were:Dimitris Siokis, Group Treasurer at Coca-Cola Hellenic Bottling CompanyElisa Mylona, Executive Director, Treasury & Customer Finance at OTE GroupChristos Baltoumas, Director of Treasury at LAMDA Development S.AThe panel discusses various topics related to treasury careers, including the importance of mentorship, the role of technology in treasury, and the challenges faced by treasury professionals. They also emphasize the need for continuous learning and the importance of building meaningful relationships in the industry.Dimitris Siokis - Dimitris is the Group Treasurer at Coca Cola Hellenic. He has a background in Treasury, Corporate Finance, ESG Funding, Risk Management & Advisory, Portfolio Management and Derivatives Structuring, after spending 25 years in Buy/Sell Side Banking and Advisory roles in the UK, Luxembourg and Greece.Currently a HAT Board Member, heading the working groups for Financial Risk Management and Educational initiatives.Elisa Mylona - Elisa has over 16 years of experience in treasury operations. In her current role she oversees funding, liquidity, cash flow, risk management, payments, and treasury policies. Elisa has managed complex funding transactions, navigated distressed markets, and handled corporate restructurings. In 2020, her role expanded to include Customer Finance, overseeing credit control, revenue assurance, and receivables. Previously, she worked as a Credit Analyst at Hypovereinsbank in Athens. Christos Baltoumas - Christos is a seasoned Treasury Director with over 16 years of experience in treasury management, liquidity management, and forecasting. Currently leading treasury operations at LAMDA Development S.A., he excels in developing and managing the group's debt exposure, negotiating complex financing agreements, and overseeing major refinancing projects.Previously, Christos was a Treasury Manager at Bluehouse Capital, optimizing banking relationships and managing cash and liquidity across 10 countries. He has also held key positions at Vestas HELLAS SA and Pet Line SA.Key Takeaways form the session include;Be curious and continue to learn to stay ahead in your treasury career.Building meaningful relationships and networking are crucial for success.Embrace technology and stay updated with the latest trends in treasury.Challenge assumptions and be open to...
Responding to your questions & comments, Pepe is joined by his wife Lee Bandit as they share thoughts on the things listeners have been saying & asking. It's a wide ranging episode that will leave you even more connected to your host & his wife as they offer some honest, fun & serious answers to what listeners have been wanting to know.Do you have a question of your own? You can send them to us at Podcast@backonthegrindrecords.com or on Instagram instagram.com/backonthegrindpod/ We guarantee results!!!***If you or someone you care about needs support, SAMHSA's National Helpline is a free, confidential, 24/7, 365-day-a-year treatment referral and information service (in English and Spanish) for individuals and families facing mental and/or substance use disorders. 1-800-662-HELP (4357)Support the podcast & get bonus materialpatreon.com/BackontheGrindHIGHLIGHTS:I'm in my 20's, any advice? Q&AThoughts on controlling your emotionsReflections on heartbreak3 ways people respond to difficulties in lifeI have no idea what my passion is, what should I do? Q&AOpportunities vs. PassionWhat did you learn from your time in prison? Q&AThe value of being less agreeablePepe's wife doesn't need him & why that's a good thingThe meaning behind the name of the podcastPepe changed his mind about hustle cultureWhat folk punk bands do you think deserve more listeners? Q&AI'm struggling in my relationship of 5 years...Any advice would be appreciated. Q&AWhat do you do on the weekends? Q&AFolk Punk Recommendations:Jo Rodriguez - Practical AdviceSpotify open.spotify.com/track/03EPh8gaTO9xd5YERKXZ7m?si=a95fdebe665a4a19Bandcamp flowerpotrecords.bandcamp.com/track/practical-adviceThe Looms - Mourning StarSpotify open.spotify.com/track/4XVC9QLLZ6GS7xD71LIkpk?si=ca0be3d4ce004eadBandcamp thelooms.bandcamp.com/track/mourning-starTrash Boat And The Ambush - BenedictionSpotify open.spotify.com/track/0Jf9nigV5SF61l2mVf7kQ6?si=a4ab63de7116443eBandcamp trashboatandtheambush.bandcamp.com/track/benediction-2Swamp Rats - Butcher Knife:Spotify open.spotify.com/track/02evVEFF5xfItNKiiPSCF1?si=b17d43e065a44891Bandcamp swampratsmusic.bandcamp.com/track/butcher-knifeRosa - Scan To Print:Spotify open.spotify.com/track/0EuNgurxlcPpjqOBlhtPL2?si=93250d909e3c4203YouTube youtube.com/watch?v=wDInDJby8tcSend us feedback around this episode (or others) or ask a question for possible discussion on a future episodePodcast@BackOnTheGrindRecords.comFollow the podcastinstagram.com/backonthegrindpod/?hl=engram Get Coffee for the Bandit in you roasted by PepeBanditCoffeeRoasters.com Word of mouth really matters! If you like what you heard, here's two things you can do to help keep this podcast going Share the podcast with a friend who you think will find value in it.Please leave us a rating or review. It will help us reach & support more folks like you & that's why we do this!Stay Free until next time! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
This week's guest on Karishma Konnect is a woman with magic wrapped in her lens, where she visits very often to press pause in the moment, making them memories to hold on forever. Meet Barkha Agarwal, Maternity Photographer and Founder of Memories by Barkha - one of the leading Newborn and Maternity Photography brands of its kind established in 2018. Having captured interest from a diverse clientele including popular celebrities like Debina Banerjee, Barkha is known for her unique expertise and ideas fine-tuned with a customer experience unlike any other. Barkha is the recipient of leading industry recognitions including Athe 'Canon Maestro' title and 10 European, US and Australian photography awards. She is also a mother to her own three year old and tells me more about navigating entrepreneurship and motherhood in her own style. Highlights for me were: - Leaving behind her corporate career - Her journey as a self-taught photographer - Knowing how to start your own photography career - What makes her genre unique - The importance of mentorship - Building a business using social media Kurious to know more: https://memoriesbybarkha.com/ Tune into Karishma Konnect across platforms here: https://linktr.ee/karikonnect. Please subscribe, like, comment, share, and all that jazz. Stay Tuned for our next episode coming soon! For regular updates, follow me on Instagram at www.instagram.com/karishmakonnect! #podcasts #KarishmaKonnect #photography #moms #mothers #maternity #newborn #kids #memories
Ship Profile: NCC-1701-AThe history of onscreen Enterprises is rich in detail for some and scant for others.Then there's the U.S.S. Enterprise-A.First introduced in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home as a reward for our TOS-era heroes saving Earth once again, we saw this Constitution refit-class in the next two movies (Star Trek V and Star Trek VI). The trio looks at this ship's origins and purported ending, discovering more mysteries about it than first thought.They look at the largely non-canon origins of the ship, and ask if the U.S.S. Yorktown, then recommissioned as the Enterprise-A, was a new or quite old vessel? What about the history of the Constitution-class and its refits in general? What are the differences, if any, between the refit NCC-1701 and the NCC-1701-A? What was the A's mission in between its malfunctioning introduction in Star Trek V and its scheduled decommissioning in Star Trek VI?Join us as we discuss all things about the first Enterprise to add a letter to its registry and the last with Captain Kirk in command.
Wat zit er toch in het water in Vlaanderen dat ze allemaal zo mooi kunnen praten? Christophe Vekeman heeft de gave van het woord, hij schreef zo'n twintig boeken en is columnist voor De Standaard. In België is het nodige te doen over zijn boek: 'Tot God,' waarin hij beschrijft hoe hij christen is geworden. Vekeman is bekend geworden door zijn romans - waarmee hij literaire prijzen won - maar nu heeft hij fictie afgezworen. Hij wil alleen nog op zoek naar de waarheid. Een ontdekkingstocht die hem bracht naar het Oxford van de bekende schrijver C.S. Lewis, waar Christophe iets bijzonders meemaakte. Zijn nieuwe boek is een genre op zich, het bevat reisverslagen, dagboeknotities, poëzie, Bijbelse beschouwingen maar ook vrij expliciete scènes. Ook beschrijft hij zijn fascinatie voor gelovige muzikanten als Johnny Cash, Nick Cave en Bob Dylan. David Boogerd spreekt Christophe Vekeman uiteraard samen met vaste gast, theoloog Stefan Paas, professor ook aan de VU in Amsterdam en de Theologische Universiteit Utrecht.
In this episode of M&A Masters, I had the pleasure of speaking with Sharon Heaton, founder of sbLiftOff. SbLiftOff specializes in providing advisory services to founder-led businesses and government contracting organizations across the United States, focusing on mergers and acquisitions (M&A) and more. Sharon, also the author of the Forbes bestseller LIFT OFF: 12 Things to Know Before Selling Your Business, shares invaluable insights into the world of M&A, the journey of founder-led businesses, and the essence of preparing for and navigating the sale process.She'll cover:The future of M&AThe emotional aspects of selling a businessHer ideal client profileViewing M&A as a transition to a new chapterAnd more
David, meet Goliath.In this episode, digital health veteran Stuart Green (SVP and General Manager of the Life Science Business at Veridigm) shares all the secrets of what large incumbents want when working with startups. Stuart offers great insights and advice to founders looking to sell to, partner with, or get acquired by the Goliaths of healthcare.We cover:Understanding the unmet needs of large healthcare companiesHow to best position your company to incumbents for sales, partnerships, or M&AThe role data plays in the pharmaceutical industry, and how this has evolvedImproving the EHR experience for physicians and making it more efficient and user-friendlyFollow Stuart Green on XLearn more about VeradigmSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Subscriber-only episodeConscious Trading Academy Transform Your Mind. Master Your Trades - Memberships & Courses now available.Friendly Bear Discord Join The Friendly Bear Discord (message a mod for trade floor channel access):SuccessTrader Mention Friendly Bear when calling up SuccessTrader directly for the best possible dealCobra Trading Click the link and get 33% off commissions for life as well as one month of free DAS Trader PlatformDilution Tracker Click the link and get 10% off of Dilution TrackerEdgeToTrade Use coupon code FRIENDLYBEAR15 for 15% off EdgeToTrade, the financial research platform for traders.TraderSync Use coupon code FRNLYBR for 15% off monthly, 55% off yearly for TraderSync trading journal software TradeIdeas Use coupon code FRIENDLYBEAR for 15% off TradeIdeas real-time data stock scannerFlashSEC Click the link and get 15% off 12 months of FlashSECTC2000 Click the link to get $25 off TC2000 servicesOrtex ORTEX brings you the most timely and accurate Short interest data available.Flash Research Use coupon code FB15 for 15% off Premium. Find your edge with the best stock analyzer. Friendly Bear Trading Books This is a complete list of all my trading books of all my trading computer equipment on AmazonDisclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
AThe guys are recapping and reacting to Week 8 of NFL action! Niners lose 3 straight, how worried should we be? Bengals heating up! Broncos end their losing streak vs KC and more! Plus they're previewing and handicapping the MNF game between the Lions and Raiders! Tap in! Powered by: SHARPZ TAPROOMSPORTSPODCAST.COM
On this episode, George and Maria, talk about destinations you can visit as a solo traveller. Tune in to learn more & click here to read the dedicated blog post! If you have destinations you think should be included, get in touch is we can come back with a part 2! Chania E-book with 7 day itinerary. Click here to buyPodcast listening:ChaniaChania Q&AThe best of Kefalonia (beach mentioned: Myrtos)Orfia Retreats and GlampingThe Best of SantoriniLefkadaTop Greek Islands without a carBlog posts:Chania - My Eternal ParadiseTop things to do in SantoriniVegan travel in Greece and SantoriniTop Destinations for Non-DriversOther:Homers OdysseyIthaka by C.P. Cavafy and Sean Connery reads ITHAKA | Powerful Life Poem by C.P.CavafyBeach in Ithaki: Gidaki beach.Ferry service for Small Cyclades is Express Skopelitis.Check out the My Greek Island website www.mygreekis.land and give us a follow on instagram @mygreekisland to keep up to date with the My Greek Island adventures, and for those of you visiting Greece remember to tag us for a future feature.If you liked the episode, feel free to leave a rating and review, and to make sure you are notified as soon as future episodes are released, press the subscribe or follow button on the podcast platform of your choice. And if you have any requests for future episodes, feel free to drop us a DM.There are 227 inhabited Greek Islands, which one will YOU visit next?#MGIPODCAST Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Liever ziek dan duur? De zorgpremie gaat omhoog en onze zorguitgaven bedragen met 108 miljard, ruim een kwart van de overheidsuitgaven. Is de marktwerking in de zorg mislukt? Hoe stoppen we deze trend? Wie is bereid om de toegankelijkheid of betaalbaarheid van de zorg te verkleinen, om te voorkomen dat de kwaliteit van de zorg gelijk blijft? Gezondheidszorgeconoom Xander Koolman ontrafelt de zorguitgaven. De grootste kostenposten waar iets aan te doen is, zijn ouderenzorg, jeugdzorg en ggz. Niet bepaald populaire onderwerpen om in te snijden tijdens verkiezingstijd. Spinoza, de eerste atheïst Oktober is Spinozamaand - Spinoza is de denker die in Amsterdam werd geboren en de standaardwerken als de Ethica schreef. De man van Portugees Joodse komaf legde de basis voor de Nederlandse gedachte over tolerantie en het ‘vrije denken'. Wie was deze filosoof en hoe zien we zijn denkrichting terug in ons dagelijks leven en in onze politiek? Prof. dr. Ronald van Raak, de Erasmiaanse wetenschapper verbonden aan de gelijknamige universiteit, heeft de net verschenen biografie (ruim 1100 pagina's) van de Britse historicus Jonathan Israel gelezen en geeft uitleg. Dik, dikker, dikst We maken dagelijks tweehonderd keuzes over wat we eten. Hoe kunnen we dat sturen richting gezondere alternatieven? Jonge dr. Sanne Djojosoeparto onderzocht welke beleidsmaatregelen overheden in Europa en Nederland aannemen om onze voedselomgeving zo aan te passen dat het gezond gedrag bevordert, en is kritisch: in Nederland hebben de maatregelen grotendeels een zwak tot zeer zwak effect. In dr Kelder en Co legt ze uit waarom maatregelen als een suikertaks wél doel treffen.
[38]. कार्बी गॉस्पेल सॉन्ग.mp4 // 1 KORINTH 15 - Khristo Kethi Pen Kethur Alam1Lapen nonke, neli nanglitum aphan kepachethangtang lapen nanglitum dengsi kekroithipbom a-Birta Keme alam nanglitum aphan kepachematha-thujisi neli ning hang-lo, kortemarli atum. 2Neli nanglitum aphan kethan-kepachethang alam, atheke birta keme nanglitum jongsi otthipbom tangte, labangso pen ajok nanglitum kejok long-lo. Bonta jongsi lapuson kali tangte, nanglitum kroinak-lo. Bonta nanglitum akekroi jongsi ahok kali tangte, nanglitum kejok longledetji. 3Neli kelong ake-nangsotnei alam, atheke hastro along ketok atengsi Khristo ilitum apap hei hei pen apot thilo pu alamsi neli nanglitum aphan thanlo. 4Atheke alangliphan pipdet-lo lapen nithom aphi parengthusi pathurlo; 5lapen alangli Pitor aphan cheklang-lo, lapen labangso aphi alangli ketoitang bangkrehini atum aphan cheklang-lo. 6Labangso aphi alangli alangliphan kekroi bang pharopho sose atum aphan elongpet adim cheklang-lo. Halatum angbong ongmuchot atum non anta reng-etbomlang, bonta penang atum ke amek jangpametang-lo. 7Labangso aphi alangli Jems aphan cheklang-lo lapen labangso aphi alangli ketoitang atum an aphan cheklang-lo.8Kadokave aphisi alangli neliphan, atheke ahut chokche ako amahang kethek ason abang aphan cheklang-lo. 9Pima ketoitang atum angbong akebinei abang neli helo. Neli ke ketoitang abang pu amen kelongji a-otta ave, pima neli Arnam amondoli mate kroi-asong aphan chenek-lo. 10Bonta Arnam akangjinso pen ajok pini neli lapuson plang-lo, lapen alangli neliphan nekepi akangjinso ale avedet-lo, lapu kali. Athe pima, ketoitang atum an apar neli kam keklem chepadukmulo; bonta lake neli methangle keklem kali, neli long kedo Arnam akangjinsosi la klemlo. 11Tangte lahelo, neli tame, kalite halatum settame, nelitum kadokaveta la esonpet alamsi than-pachethang-lo lapen nanglitum labangso alamsi kroilo.
How to Do Nutrition Coaching as a Personal TrainerWant to truly help clients achieve their fitness goals? Hosts Dr. J and Scott with Healthy Behavior Institute say taking your personal training beyond the gym is key in their latest eye-opening episode. They reveal smart strategies to incorporate nutrition coaching without overstepping to help clients with their fitness goals. . This holistic approach leads to better adherence, enjoyment and sustainable results for clients.Dr. J stresses understanding your credentials' legal bounds for nutrition advice as a personal trainer. But within scope, adding nutrition coaching significantly boosts client success versus just exercise plans. She advises against overly rigid diets though, instead favoring a flexible priorities over plans approach.Scott echoes focusing on client priorities first. Prescribed diets often backfire by conflicting with lifestyle, preferences and sustaining motivation for personal training clients. He advocates starting with small feasible changes clients are genuinely excited to try based on current habits and needs.Dr. J emphasizes gradual progress through minimal effective dose versus extreme makeovers. Small consistent steps ingrained into daily life build capability and confidence over time for personal training clients. As Scott notes, you must co-create changes with clients versus impose external rules as a personal trainer. Make it enjoyable and sustainable.To facilitate nutrition coaching, Dr. J and Scott designed a separate consultation service called 360 Wellness for personal trainers. This provides a dedicated time and space to collaborate on nutrition, mindset, sleep, stress relief and more. Just 15-20 minutes weekly, virtually or in-person, to identify and support lifestyle changes.In summary, lasting client success requires holistic guidance, not just workouts. Take coaching beyond the gym by adding nutrition collaboration within your scope of practice as a personal trainer. Most importantly, make it a personalized journey focused on priorities, gradual progress and enjoyment. Small steps compound into incredible transformation when sustained over time.For a complete blueprint on adding 360 Wellness coaching to your personal training business to get clients amazing results while increasing revenue, visit www.healthybehaviorinstitute.com. Together we can revolutionize the fitness industry through the power of science-backed behavior change education for personal trainers.Subscribe for best daily videosPG clean, family friendly, no swearingHow to do nutrition coaching l steps for personal trainers aThe 5 Most Common Nutrition Questions | Nutrition Coach's CornerNUTRITION COACH VS DIETITIAN | top tips for better nutrition______________Inspired by https://www.youtube.com/@AlexHormozihttps://www.youtube.com/@RenaissancePeriodizationhttps://www.youtube.com/@sortahealthytrainereducationAlso check out these past videos of oursUnlocking Lasting Fitness: The Art of Balancing Quick Resultshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNXosjr6VsgUncover the Secret to Stop Overeating - Find out the 5 Tips!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WVjvkA6SBQUncovering The Dark Side of Being a Personal Trainer: Don't Ignore This Before Becoming Onehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5ZGkbOMk-IBecoming a Personal Trainer: 8 Things You Need to Know Now!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA4TsRGfY78Interested in BECOMING the ULTIMATE FITNESS COACH?! Find out more here
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Tim LoGrasso of Kickdrum and Matt Thompson of AWS host a roundtable sharing best practices for software mergers and acquisitions.Topic include:Karthik Krishnamurthy introductionTim LoGrasso, Kickdrum introductionMaturity model for calculating risk in M&AM&A changes and challenges in 2023Matt Thompson, AWS introductionIs architecture a focus when considering M&A?Most M&A struggles due to product team misalignmentContainers, APIs in compute infrastructure easier to integrate than MonolithsM&As are often driven by Finance and Business Development, not so much Product TeamsTime metric to measure success and failure for M&AsBuilding a case for M&A vs buildPreethi Srinivasan (Druva, DataStax) on due diligence for M&A considerationsPre-integration Proof of Concepts increase the success rate90 day and 12 month plans with funding models to deliver the joint opportunityUnderstand the ‘white space' to address with the combination of productsWhat can product teams do to accelerate value?Identify potential friction points and how to addressAccess to cheap compute power is importantGuidance on managing customer data during M&AThe customer data to reviewManaging people risk during an M&ASession wrap up
Schedule is leaked, planning trips, Love athe podium, and more! (FULL SHOW)
theAPSociety.org/AWW2023/ Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E13 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm one of your host Yucca, Mark: And I'm the other one. Mark. Yucca: and today we are talking about Christianity and Paganism worldviews and really kind of exploring that idea. Mark: Yeah, because when you really drill down into a pagan. Way of understanding the world. It starts to really rub sharply up against the, the models for what's important in the universe and how we should live and all that kind of stuff that are taught to us by the mainstream culture and in the mainstream culture, in the English speaking world that is entirely suffused with Christianity. Yucca: Right. So much so that I think we're very unaware of the extent. It really takes some deep reflection and. And exploring an investigation of other world frameworks to even be able to recognize what is coming from Christianity and what's influenced by Christianity and how what we're doing is different in some ways. Mark: Right, Yucca: Yeah, Mark: right. It's the water we're swimming in Yucca: right. Mark: and so it becomes background to us. We, we don't notice that we're swimming, you know, we don't notice that we're moving through air because air is around us all the time, right? So we don't pay very much attention to air unless it's moving at high speed or carrying water or something like that, or smoke or whatever it, it may be. Yucca: little bit off. Yeah. Mark: Right. So it's a. So let, let's dive in and let's, let's talk about what some of those kind of core Christian beliefs are, and not so much beliefs, but frameworks for how to live and what's important and those kinds of things. Moral frameworks. Yucca: Well, I'm doing a lot of reflecting on this throughout the week because we, we talked about last time, oh, what, what are we gonna talk about next week? And so we had a little bit of time to do some brainstorming and what it, what kept coming back for me is the relationship and role of authority. And I think that this is something that, that in our conversation today, we are stick. To Christianity, but I think this is something that is shared with other monotheistic religions in general, at least the ones that I've been exposed to. And the approach to there being a God or this deity who is the ultimate authority, who is something of a parent role. But parent in a very authoritative kind of way I think is really central to a lot of the other topics that we're going to get into in terms of why you do good things versus why you do bad things and how do you see what is good and what is bad and what your roles are. I think it, a lot of it really comes down to that relationship to a. Mark: Yeah, I really agree with that. That, I mean, we, people talk about. The father. Right. It's, it, it's this patriarchal idea of first of all, male supremacy, which is sown pretty thoroughly throughout Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Christianity. But beyond that, it's this authority figure who hands down the law and you obey it. And if you don't obey it, then you get punished. Yucca: Right. And they know best. They know better for you than you do for yourself, and Mark: Right. Well, in this case, they know everyth. Yucca: Yes. Mark: Right? Yucca: And so don't question it. Mark: Yeah. Cuz they know everything. They're always right. They're, they're not capable of making a mistake. All of those things are true and that is a very powerful model, but to my mind, not a very realistic one. even if you believe in and, you know, the, the medieval philosophers would get themselves all twisted in knots about this, the theologians you know, can, can God create a stone that is too heavy for him to lift. You know, these kinds of questions because there are tons of paradoxes in the idea of something that is infinite, infinite knowledge, infinite strength, infinite power infinite presence, you know, omnipresent everywhere around us all the time watching. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: There are just, you know, kind of rational, logical problems with. But it is a very powerful, compelling set of models, particularly if it's embraced by a society that is similarly constructed. So if you've got a society that's built with an authority at the top, like a king, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And the king is always right. The king can do whatever he wants. Everybody else is subject to the whims of the king. Then having a religion where that's the same model works out pretty well for the king. Right, and for those that are close to the king? Yucca: Well, and for the smaller kings underneath that king, right? You might not be the top king, but you get to be the king in your house. If. You're the guy, Mark: right. Yes. Yucca: the oldest son, you know? Mark: the man as the king of his household, you know, and his home is his castle, right? It, it's not a mistake that the coronation of kings throughout the Middle Ages and Renaissance was always done by a religious figure Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: it was basically saying, There is a hierarchy in the world that starts with God, and God is acknowledging that you're at this particular high point in the hierarchy. Yucca: Right, and this is so deeply ingrained that it has, that, it really takes us a moment to step back and think that it doesn't have to be that way. There doesn't have to be that hierarchy of power, but we take it for granted because it's, even in today's world where, you know there are, there's a king in England, right? But it's not the same way it used to be. But even today that that structure is still around. It's still in the back of our minds. It's still how we think about society, even though. That's not politically how it's working exactly anymore, but it really is at the same time. It's not one single king, but we're still basing our whole way of relating to each other with who has more power over the other person. Mark: Sure. Think of a workplace, right? You've got either a sole proprietor who is the king or queen. Or you've got a board of directors who are basically kings or queens and they invest power in a chief executive who is like a regent of some kind and everybody else has, is down below on the authority pyramid and has to obey the directions of what edicts are handed down, or they are punished, they are fired, or they are disciplined, or whatever it is. The same happens even in very benign circumstances. Like, you know, like our education system, we assume that, you know, a kindergarten teacher is a very benign figure, but in the process of going through kindergarten and grade school and all that, children are learning to obey an authority figure that stands in front. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: That's, that's core to what they're learning about how they should relate in the world. Yucca: Yeah. And that's, that is the system of, that is school. Right. Whether you're, whether it's a private school, whether it's a public or a religious school or whatever, that's, that's the process of school. Mark: Right. And it's hard to break that even when you want to. When I was teaching undergrad students when I was in graduate school, you know, you, you try, you move the chairs into a circle and you try to make it more about a sharing of experience and expertise rather than an authority thing. But you still have to turn in grades. You know, you still have to take attendance. You know, these, these things are mandated. You don't have any choice about it. So, and if you just arbitrarily decide that you're going to give an a to everyone in the class, you get in trouble. Yucca: Right. Mark: they don't, they frown on that, right? Because the entire academic model is constructed around the validity of those as, BS, CS, deans, and f. Yucca: Right. Well, and even when you purposely choose to, to use a different model, you're still working with, having come from that model to begin with, and you fall back on what you know and what you're comfortable with and when you're working with adult students. They have a whole, they've got their whole life of experience behind them as well. So you spend a lot of the time working on the system and the process instead of the content for that. yeah, and that's something, you know, as a, in our family we don't use, even though I am a teacher and, you know, working on my doctorate in this and all of that, but we don't use that, the schooling as our framework for education. Very, very consciously, but we find ourselves slipping back sometimes into that. Well, yeah, but I'm the parent and I said so right And have to go, wait a second. Is that I, is that really what we want? I mean, sometimes I do have to like swoop in and be like, Nope. Can't touch the fire. But, but outside of that, it really takes a lot of dedicated thought and self-awareness to step out of that and, and try to, Different because it's, it's how we were raised, right? Mark: And we're not encouraged to be different. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And that is in, in the broadest sense, we are not encouraged to be diverse because a part of what's necessary in order to get everybody marching in the same direction in order to fulfill the desires of some hierarchy, is that they need to submerge their diversity in their conform. And conformity becomes a very important value. And this is true. It's not only true in in Christianized countries by any means. I mean, Yucca: We're Mark: conformity is a big Yucca: it's our experience, right? Mark: Exactly, but conformity is a big value in much of Asia as well. The, so when we ask ourselves, And, and we'll get to what we're talking about with Paganism in a minute. But you know, what, what would it mean to be a person with agency rather than a person who's framed in the world as a servant of some higher authority? Yucca: Hmm. Mark: You know, what, what kinds of choices could we make? What kinds of responsibilities would we have? What sorts of freedoms would we have? think that those are some of the deep questions that becoming a Pagan really asks, being a pagan isn't just about, well, I'm now, I'm doing this groovy stuff with all this, you know, witchy aesthetic or you know, you know, old cultures like, you know, the Norse culture that died out, or the Greek culture that died out kind of, you know, reconstructing that. It really, it's much deeper than that. It's, it's really more about how can I see the world through eyes that are less informed anyway, by that authoritarian model. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: So the, the relationship to authority is a big one. The idea of relationships as possessory is another big one. Yucca: Yes. Mark: The, you know, the idea that children are possessions of their parents, that spouses are possessions of their spouses and that then ties into the whole bodily shaming. Contempt for the material world with the idea that there's this other sort of spirit world that is higher, more elevated. And that's not just in Christianity. Yucca: Yeah. You hear that. Oh, some higher power or lowly and you know, and the things that are, that are earth earthy are the things that are, that are bad. Right. That are given that Mark: Those are the things that are dirty, right? Because they're associated with dirt, which is a bad thing. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, and then, then you start pulling on that thread and you get into all the body shame and all of the the sexual shame and the just all the many, many, many ways that self-hatred gets sewn into. The idea of being unique and individual and fulfilling your desires rather than running away from them Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: suppressing them. All of this stuff is, is the, is the operating system for our, for our culture folks. Even though our culture is rapidly de christianizing, those same paradigms are still very much up and. Yucca: And even for those of us who were not raised Christian, right, even those of us who were raised pagan or were raised in any other religion, it's still. All around us. It's still, I mean, I loved how you called it the operating system, right? That's what it is, Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's it's in the ways that we have to. Edit ourselves when we talk about our lives to keep the stuff that's gonna freak out ordinary people out. Yucca: mm-hmm. Mark: Right? It's in the, it's in the ways we have to tell our kids, well, it's fine for you to do this at home, but don't do it out there Yucca: Yeah. Mark: people aren't gonna understand that they're going to disapprove. There are, there are countless little moments in every day when we ask ourselves, how is this gonna fly with the others Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: in a way that is deeply informed with that authoritarian shame-based earth denying kind of modality. Taken to its extreme, which it is in our modern times, that modality leads to the kind of exploitation of the planet that is causing us such existential crises, right? If, if you denigrate the material to the point that it's nothing but a pile of resources to be mined, which the Bible very clearly spells out, it is according to. Framework how can you hold a pile of resources as sacred instead of, instead of understanding it as a a, a living fabric, an interconnected set of relationships of which we are a part and have both benefits and responsibilities. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: It's just such a different way of looking at the world, and it's not the one that drives our economic system, our political system, or our culture. Yucca: Right. Now there's definitely places in Paganism because we have to remember Paganism is a, is huge. It's a big umbrella. Right. And there's definitely places where some of the things we've been talking about have been brought in and are. Are shared, right? There are some traditions in which the, the hierarchy and that structure is very important. And there are other traditions that, that are purposefully breaking away from that and not embracing that kind of framework or trying not to. So certainly when we talk about paganism and we. We as always, cannot speak for every pagan and every form of paganism, but are talking about the our experiences and our particular flavor of Paganism. Mark: Right, right. Well, and I think that to some degree, that's a generational thing. I think that when. When modern neo paganism really kind of started up again which was in the fifties and sixties, I don't think any many could really imagine a fully non-hierarchical way of organizing anything. You know? And I'm sure that there are some, you know, communes and intentional communities and so forth that we're trying to do something else, but. By and large, an average person, much less an a retired English civil servant, would probably think, well, this is the way things should be organized. You should have things in tier. And people go from one to another tier and they get higher and higher in status and power. Yucca: Because that's just how society works, right? Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, but here we are, you know, almost a third of the way through the 21st century, amazingly enough, and we are able to imagine now alternatives for one thing, our ability to have conversations about something other than Christianity in a religious context. O other than Abrahamic religions, generally in a. Other than in, in that context, has jumped markedly just in the last 20 or 30 years. Yucca: Mm-hmm. And you're speaking about the, the broader community, not just Paganism in this case, Mark: Yes, yes. I, I, I think you know, more ideas about how we can relate with one another, relate to the world, relate to the cosmos are being bandied about now than were before. I mean, Bertrand Russell caused an absolute outrage when he published why I Am Not a. Which I believe was in the 1940s, maybe a little earlier than that. Not sure. That kind of thing just sort of disappears without a ripple these days. There's plenty of people writing stuff like that. Yucca: Right. Yeah. Just it gets a shrug. Yeah. And Mark: Yeah. Yucca: what other percentage of the Mark: Yeah, you and a lot of other people. And so my big question to those folks is, well, what are you then, what are you gonna do? Which is what Athe, paganism was a stab at answering. You know, I'm not just an atheist and I'm not just an an earth revere. How am I gonna, how am I gonna implement that? Yucca: Right, Mark: So, Yucca: and I, I think it's kind of like accents. Everybody's got something. You just don't notice it when everyone around you has the same as you. You only start to notice it when it's different than what you're hearing. Mark: right, right. And I mean, these things continue to be a challenge as. Time rolls forward, even though the level of credulity in authority generally seems to be falling, there haven't been very many alternatives presented to that framework. And so people just tend to drop back into it because it's what they know. Yucca: Right. Mark: So let's talk a little bit more about what. What aspects of Paganism really fly in the face of that conventional paradigm? I mean, certainly the whole relationship to the body and sexuality are very, very different. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: And that doesn't mean we're in about a f, you know, a free love, free for all. But we're, we're about responsible relationships, however they work for you. Yucca: Right. Well, and just the idea that pleasure is not bad, right? That just because something's pleasurable doesn't mean that it's a negative thing. I think that's huge because that is a big. Underlying assumption that if it, if it feels good, it must be bad for you somehow. And we don't have that assumption, or we try not to have that assumption. Mark: Yes. Yes. That, that's better said, I think because the truth is, you know, we, the, the two of us and you know, the, the people in, in the English speaking world who are practicing pagans, You know, we were still raised in our society and we're still gonna be, it's like soaking in tea. Even after you get out of the teacup, you're still kind of tea colored, right? Yucca: Yeah. Mark: There's, there's just not a lot that you can do about it, and you can spend time over time, you know, washing that off and can become, Stronger, less shame filled more, more about your own agency and decision making, more courageous, all those things. But it takes time and it is a process, and I don't think anybody ever completely gets there. Yucca: Right, and you're continuously exposed. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: not like you decide, okay, now I'm, you know, I'm a pagan now and now none of those things are going to continue to influence me. It's just everything in the past that I'm healing from. I was like, well, no, you, you read the newspaper, you talk with your friends, you read a book, you listen to podcasts, you watch like all of these things, those are still influencing you every day. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, especially. It's one thing if you've kind of carved out a little economy for yourself where you work for yourself and you, you don't have to plug into big hierarchical structures very much. That's one thing. But most of us have a job and jobs are organized tend, you know, they tend to be organized hierarchically. Yucca: Well, and even those of us who are self-employed, we still are dealing with clients and we're still dealing with banks and you know, that whole, that that's all still there. It may not be quite as in your face as, you know, going and clocking in and having your supervisor who was their supervisor and their bo, you know, but it's still around us. Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. And because it's still around us, I think some people, especially folks who have escaped very authoritarian religious contexts, they often unconsciously drag a lot of this framework along with them into paganism Yucca: I think that certainly happened with the idea of faith. Faith being such a big deal. Belief, yeah. The, the literal belief and in deity and the, the faith in your, in your faith. Right. With a capital F, Mark: Yeah. The, the faith in magic, the yeah. All, all of those things and, and the idea of sort of, you know, driving out the heretics. Kind of goes along with that. It's like, well, if you don't believe the way we believe, then you're not one of us. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Whereas you know, to my mind there are few enough pagans as it is. I mean, I think the estimate is a million and a half in the, in North America, something like that. There's few enough of us as it is that we don't need to be splitting with one another. I'm reminded of the. The scene from Monty Python's Life of Brian, where the Judea and people's front and the people's front of Judea are yelling at one another. Yucca: Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's one of the things that, that definitely got. Pulled in, and that's something we've talked about before on the podcast Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: of how on some levels, some of that is very new, but it's also been around for a long time as well. So, Mark: Yeah. But there was definitely a cultural shift that happened with, with the big influx there. There was a big influx into paganism in my experience in the 1990s and A lot of those folks were fleeing patriarchal, authoritarian, kind of punishment oriented religions, various flavors of Christianity, almost exclusively. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And it was only a few years later that this idea about having to have faith and believe literally in Gods as, as actual beings rather than ideas. All that stuff really came to the fore. And, you know, maybe that wasn't a bad thing. Maybe it was, maybe it was okay. You know, for those of us that don't follow that way to get a little bit more organized and, you know, explore the ideas that underpin our way of looking at the world, you know, which is, you know, part of the result of that. That expectation. Yucca: Yeah, it's certainly something that I don't remember from my childhood. Now, some of that might be simply because of the particular style of my family and who were the people that we would, that we would spend time with and celebrate with. But it, I didn't start really encountering that until. Late teenage years, early adult years, finding people who literally believed that way, or at least were vocal about the literal belief, were vocal enough to tell me I was wrong. Be like, you can't be a pagan you. That's not what Pagan is. That's just a philosophy. I'm like, okay, whatever you do, do you. Mark: Yeah. I've heard that one too. That's just a philosophy or I've heard it's it's secular humanism with LARPing or You know, a lot of really kind of insulting stuff. And before, before that arose, we never even talked about theology. We just got toge, you know, it was a doing thing. We got together and we did our seasonal rituals and we celebrated and had our events and all that kind of stuff. But Yucca: I, I do Mark: have their beliefs. Yucca: God talk about goddess, but I don't remember like the goddess being. Like, I don't remember the goddess being the way like my Christian friends would talk about God. Mark: Right. Yucca: it didn't seem like, like, I mean, this is, this might feel a little bit offensive for somebody from a theistic perspective, but my child understanding was that like God was your like imaginary friend that you could talk to, that you could use as your justification to do whatever you wanted. It had never, like when I heard people talk about the Goddess, it wasn't really like, Person that was like your imaginary friend that you like prayed to and stuff. It was, I always kind of understood it as more, they were talking about like the force of nature and life itself, and it was very more of like this kind of metaphorical thing. But again, that might have just been Mark: and the power of femininity, I mean, the whole sacred feminine piece too. And you know, I know a lot of folks are still doing, you know, that that kind of wicked god and goddess thing, but it seems to me that some of that, when it really arose in the 1980s, it was really kind of a product of its time. Third wave feminism was just starting to break and. You know, and with it, the, the sort of hiding off from hardcore secular Marxism of some, you know, earlier generations and there was just a lot of exploring going on. And one of the things that women, especially were realizing is we're not in any of these stories Yucca: Yeah, well, not in the way that, that is very good for us. Mark: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Your, your Yucca: We're littlest. Mark: cautionary tales and you know, object lessons and stuff like that rather than people in charge and heroes and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah. I don't know. I just, it still feels very strange to. When I encounter somebody that is just burning with rage over the fact that I call myself a pagan and I don't believe in literal deity, where is the harm to them? I mean, Yucca: Well, it'd be, it's an identity issue, I think, right. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: That they've built their, their identity around this. I am a pagan and this is what it means to be a pagan, and there's this kind of strength in the gatekeeping and there's like, it feels empowering and in like a very, in that, that righteous kind of anger way. So I understand the, I don't. I don't think it's very constructive in the long run, but I, I can understand where they're coming from with it, but I think it causes a lot of pain in the long run. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, it seems like it would make a whole lot more sense if we could put all that aside and sit down and have a beer and, you know, enjoy one another in a, in a pagan context. And I've seen that a lot. I mean, I see that at, AT conferences and so forth where you know, we're able. I, when I go to a conference, I don't see the devotional Polytheists huddling in one corner. You know, while the non theist pagans huddle in another corner and the Wickens are in another corner. That's not how it works. You know, we, we do, we do big rituals together. We socialize, we go to parties. It's a, it's a generally a very amicable kind of environment. And, you know, bringing that, that burning rage into it, I guess is what I really don't understand. You know, it's a hard enough world out there as it is, and I find pagan spaces to be so much generally, so much kinder and more open and more tolerant. That's what I want to foster. Yucca: Yeah. I mean, I find myself just being delighted to be around other pagans and, you know, just enjoying that. Wow. You're pretty interesting. This is fun. Oh yeah. That's a nice chant. I like that. That feels good. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yucca: Hmm. Well, we had, we had talked about this. Doing this topic this week because it's Easter. And that's one of those, Easter is one of the two big Christian holidays. There certainly are lots of other ones, but those are like the big, Christmas and Easter are like the big ones that even the kind of mostly Christian just by name folks will celebrate. But it is one of those ones that's interesting because it does have a lot of overlap with what many Pagans are doing this time of year with the Equinox. Right. And so it's one of those interesting ones where there's kind of. That Like, Hmm. What is, what's, what part of it is Pagan? What part of it is Christian? It's always very funny to hear the complaints from some of the real Christian folks about, oh, this is just so pagan like, like it's a bad It's like, yeah, yeah. Say it is pretty pagan. You're talking about like, Fertility and Yeah. Yeah. And celebrating fertility and you know, and the springtime and all of that, you know. Ah, terrible. But it is, I do get a Mark: but that said, but that said, I mean, Easter is celebrated by many, many Christians as a, a celebration of sort of the redemptive quality that Spring has, right? The, the renewal of the world, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: That comes in the spring, which is lovely. It's. Human sacrifice to, to pay off the debt of sins that we didn't even commit. Things that, it just baffles me. I, I just, Yucca: Yes. Mark: I mean, Yucca: It was Women's fault, Mark: I don't know why anybody would buy into it. What was that? I'm Yucca: It was Mark: Although it was women's fault, of course. Of course it was. Yucca: Yeah, I mean the, the, the mythology behind all of it is very interesting and, and tracking and learning about that is, I find that all fascinating, right? And the, how some of those stories are, you know, far older than Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Judaism itself. And I was learning about Noah recently actually, about how the story of Noah, there's. The, the great flood and the, the hero saving people from the great, like that's way, way older than Judaism is really interesting. So, and there's a lot of, of those in there. Mark: Yeah, I mean, I can't say that I put a whole lot of effort into sort of, you know, biblical history study. It's just never been something that's appealed to me very much. Yucca: It wasn't for me either, but my kids are really interested in mythology right now. Mark: Uhhuh Yucca: Right? They're, Mark: and I'm sure they're curious about these stories that are driving the society they're in. Yucca: Absolutely. Yeah. And they're very clear. You know, my, my oldest, who you've met several times is, you know, regularly likes to remind me that we don't believe in them. That they're just stories, but they're important stories. That's what she says. They're stories, but they're important stories. And so, you know, they're just Just reading up all the mythology books that we can get right now. It's very, and it's really interesting cuz they'll notice connections between, well this story we're reading about in the Norris mythology, that's kind of like the story that, sort of like the one in the Egyptian or the Greek mythology and the, that's really interesting to see their, them tying together. And I wish that we would, could know, we can't really, but know what relationship there is between those stories. Did Mark: For Yucca: somebody a version that got passed on word of mouth for, you know, hundreds of years? Or is it just coincidence or, you know, all of that is, Mark: Well in sailing trade, you know, overland caravans and sailing trade, you know, for as long as there have been people living in communities, they've been trading with one another. And when you know, you don't just trade resources, you trade culture because you know, there you are after a long day. You know, selling your barley for leather hides or whatever it is. And now you're, you know, sitting around, seated around, abrasion, having a drink with whoever you did the trading with, and you're gonna share stories from your culture and that that means they're on the move. Yucca: Well, and marriages between different groups. Right. Your mom's from one place, your dad's from another. You grow up with both. You know, you grow up with both stories. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, so I, I guess to sort of sum up all this, I mean, maybe there was a time when it actually was an improvement in the lot of humanity for this authoritarian, patriarchal kind of model to come into place. I. Necessarily think that's, so, I think it may just have been what happens when suddenly you've got an economic surplus and people are fighting over it and somebody wins which, you know, came with agriculture. Yucca: Came with end of the ice age. Mark: Right, right. But if there was a time when that served us well, it's well, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: serve us well anymore. And so, you know, a part of what I have been about in my paganism has been wanting to increase the agency and the liberation and the justice for people and for the earth throughout the world. I. It's time for us to start unpacking all these assumptions and making other choices about how we organize our societies, about what life is worth living for. Is it worth is, is life really about the accumulation of stuff? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: I mean, honestly, it's a big question because. There's an awful lot of people out there whose identity is deeply tied up in what kind of car they drive. Yucca: Right. So it's a, it's an ongoing journey, right? Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: I'm glad that we're doing it. I'm glad that we're thinking about it and, you know, working on it every day and getting to have conversations like this on the podcast. Mark: Yeah, me too. Because as I said, I do think that it's generational and I think this is a moment, right. And things will continue to evolve from here. I mean, I don't, I don't expect that we've got all the answers or that we've figured everything out, but We're working on part of the big puzzle, and if we can do our our part and kind of figure that bit out, then we will have done our work for the larger whole. Yucca: Yeah, most of Mark: you for a great conversation, Yucca. This was cool. Yucca: yeah, likewise. That saves a good, good talk and enjoyed it. I've got more to think about than I did coming into the conversation, so that's always fun. Mark: a great thing about, that's a great thing about inquiry. It always leads to more questions than you had when you started. Yucca: Yep. Mark: Wanted to remind people real quick. We are doing an online Zoom conference of the atheopagan community, which is called the atheopagan web Weaving. That's gonna be on June 3rd and fourth, which is a weekend, and you can register for that at the link that we'll put in the show notes. Yucca: That's Mark: They're on the atheopagan Society website, which is v ap society.org. So, hope that we'll see you there. And in the meantime, have a great week and we will see you next week.
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Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. The Library: https://theapsocietyorg.wordpress.com/library/ S4E7 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, Yucca. Mark: and I mark. Yucca: And today we have an interview with a member of the atheopagan Society Council, Robin. Robin: Hello. Thanks for. Yucca: So Robin, we were just saying right before hitting record, we realized you are the first interview that we ever had on the podcast. So way back in the early days, you came and joined us, and so we've got you back again. So welcome. So even before the atheopagan Society formed, I think. Robin: I think so. I, I think it may have been pre pandemic or early pandemic, so, but wild, amazing times, Yucca: Yeah, So welcome back. We're really excited to have. Robin: Thank you. Mark: Yeah. So, well, let's just dive right in. Why don't you tell us something about yourself and your journey to getting to atheopagan and within it. Just kind of what, what's your story been there, Robin? Robin: Yeah. So I grew up, my family is kind of like nominally Catholic. But I realized pretty early on that that was just like not gonna be for me and decided. I was an atheist. But so like nature and going out into nature always played a really big role in my life. We were lucky enough to have this like little patch of woods at the back of our yard that it was technically our neighbors, but they didn't care that we played back there. And so we just spent hours and hours playing in the woods. and my grandfather was really big into birding and he took us out looking for looking for birds. And then later on we got involved in like Boy Scouts, girl Scouts, me and my brother. And our parents decided to get involved too and volunteer with them. So we just went camping a lot and spent a lot of time outside. And so I really just always had that connection to nature and. One day in high school I walked into homeroom and my best friend was reading this book about Wicca. It was Anne Mara's Green Witchcraft, and I was intrigued. And I think some of that was just like, you know, it's like the forbidden thing, , like I'm willing to admit that it was, part of, it was just that like, Ooh, witchcraft. Mark: Great. When you're a teenager, Robin: Exactly. Yeah. And. The other things that really appealed to me was that it was based in nature in the seasons and cycles of the seasons, and it was also very feminist, which coming from a Catholic background was just so refreshing. And so, I spent a couple years off and on kind of trying to be the stereotypical pagan. ultimately, that didn't really work for me either. And so I kind of went back to being nothing or being atheist again. But occasionally I would feel this like desire to, you know, light a candle meaningful in, at a meaningful moment or I, I ended up just kind of feeling like, like I wasn't pagan, I wasn't fitting in. But I also felt like a really bad atheist, so my, my cognitive dissonance was pretty high. So, and it finally just came to a head for me and I realized like I really wanted this sense of spirituality but one that would still balance with science. So I. For some reason decided the best way to figure this out was to start a blog and start blogging about it. And then I took a quiz on Beliefnet and they were like, Hey, you're a, you're a secular humanist. And I said, cool. What is that? I had no idea what it was. What like secular, like I knew humanism from studying history, but I didn't know what a secular human witness was and didn't take very long. I started googling like humanist, pagan, and kind of stumbled onto this community, and it was, it was such a great moment. Just like the sense of joy and relief, finding that like I wasn't the only person thinking like this. Mark: Hmm. Robin: So it was, it was incredible finding that. And another thing that has been really amazing being part of this community is you get to see people kind of having that experience again and again being like, oh my gosh, I'm not the only one. So, yeah, that's, that's the slightly longer version. Mark: Well that's wonderful. Yeah. We, we do have an awful lot of people who they, they find themselves in our community and they're like, oh, wow. I found my people. This is, this is cool. I thought I was gonna be all alone in this. Robin: Yeah, and I think that was kind of why I was like, I guess I'll start a blog. Maybe other people will be interested, but realized pretty quickly like I didn't need to, so, Mark: You know, the, the same thing happened to me. I. I went through this whole process and wrote a 40 page essay and did all this research and came to all these conclusions and threw it up on the internet, and, and, and I had been looking for stuff and my research skills were just apparently terrible. Because there were people already doing this, you know, the, the Humanistic Paganism blog and people like Anya Orga and Daniel Strain and John Cleveland, host and John Halsted. They were all, you know, well along on the same thinking. And I just blew it. Robin: Yeah, well we don't make it easy cuz it's, it's under all these different terms. Like you might find us. By going through like humanistic paganism or atheist and paganism or witchcraft. Like there's so many different terms. So, Mark: Yeah, it's. Robin: yeah. So I think another thing that had a lot of influence on me was being able, growing up, even though we weren't religious, we were still part of these really tight-knit communities, and I. Really enjoyed that and kind of ended up pursu, like I found myself looking for communities like that to join. And I think my parents set a really good example for me because they were always kind of involved with volunteering and different community projects. A lot of times through like scouts. I did a stint in AmeriCorps with the Student Conservation Association, where we, we basically lived in a commune doing for like a year, doing all these different community service projects. And then my early career was in environmental education and that gave me a lot of opportunities to be in those kind of communities and roles. And then later I shifted to libraries, which is also a community service kind of role. So, yeah. Yucca: And that's something that you have brought with you into the atheopagan community. Robin: I, I hope so. Yeah. I very much want this to be not just. I want it to be a community not just like a group of people, but for people to really feel like they belong and they are a part of it. And that, you know, it's not just like these people on high deciding, deciding like, this is how we live and this is what our practices are. It's, you know, I can contribute something to this. I can decide what is important to me and make that part of my practice. So I hope, I really hope to see that. Mark: Well, you've been great. Identifying resource, and I'm sure that that's this library background. Identifying resources, bringing things forward. You know, Hey, have you thought about this? Hey, look at what these people over here are doing. Hey, look at these children's books that, you know, espouse our values. And you know, all of us come from different backgrounds and people are in different situations. You know, Yucca has kids, for example. I don't have. So, you know, Yucca would be looking for resources for her kids books, right? And, you know, videos and whatever it is. And I think that that's what builds a community is when you have stuff that works for a lot of different kinds of people and they can all come together around. Robin: Yeah, and I think especially talking about books like it, it's amazing. Like I started looking for, at one point I said like, Hey, let me see what kind of children's books I can find that. Reflect the values that somebody in this community might be interested in. And what amazed me was how many I found and how many there are out there. And I think part of it is that we think about the things that little children are kind of learning and a lot of these books are focused on things like nature and learning about seasons, but they're also really focused on wonder. And that's something that Athe, paganism kind of has in common is that we kind of take this child like wonder at the world and a lot of children's books do the same thing. And so like sometimes I feel like reading a really good children's book is kind of like doing a ritual. Like when I think of. I like, I love Bird Baylor her books. And so like, to me, like reading the community or the table where rich people sit is, it's like doing a ritual. So I think there's so many opportunities in children's books that I feel like they're this like un unsung resource for us. Mark: Yeah, and there's all kinds of other things that are very contemporary that are coming out in children's books now. There's stuff around consent and body autonomy. There's stuff around gender. . There's, I mean, obviously, you know, probably the parents that most need to be providing those books to their kids are the ones who aren't, but at least they're out there. At least those, those stories are being told. Robin: Yeah, and the idea too is for them to be, you know, as a librarian. Mark: Mm-hmm. Robin: Is for them to be available. Like if somebody wants them, they are there for them. But nobody, nobody forces you to take a book home from the library. It's not like an assigned reading. So they're there for people who want it. Sometimes it's interesting because publishing ta a book takes so long as I'm sure you have learned writing a book right now. Yeah. It takes so long. And so books, even children's book publishing, it tends to be like a year or two behind the trends. So we'll be talking about You know, about, maybe about five years ago there was this big trend of like, we need to see more people of color in children's books. There's hardly any. And now it's kind of catching up and, and there's a lot all at once. So, hopefully we'll see those trends continue. So Mark: Yeah. I, I have a friend who published a children's book called I Did Something Good For the Earth Today. Robin: Oh, cute. I'll check it out. Mark: yeah, it's, it's a sweet little book. It's the illustrations that take forever. I mean, To be honest, I think it's a lot easier to pound out a lot of words than it is to get, you know, all that artwork done page after page, after page for a children's book. So Robin: Yeah, and when you think about editing Mark: time. Robin: picture versus editing, a line of text takes a lot longer too. Mark: Right, exactly. Robin: Yeah. So now that I've gotten those completely off topic Yeah. But I, I, I will talk about children's books until I'm, until I'm blue in the face. Cause I love it. So, yeah. Oh, so another thing, then I just move on to history. Mark: Sure. Yucca: Yeah, absolutely. Robin: So studying history in college was, had a really big impact on me too early on. And I think, like, I've always loved history and I think that was again, like another part of it that drew me into paganism. But the community I grew up in wasn't super diverse. So when I went, I ended up going to school at the University of Toledo and it was so much more diverse than the community that I grew up in. And that was an amazing opportunity. But, and then at the same time, I was learning a lot more and focusing on the history and learning learning about the injustices that our society is built on. Mark: Mm-hmm. Robin: That really is what put me on this path to appreciating diversity and social justice and like, it's, it's just impossible to ignore when you study history long enough and deep enough. So that had a big impact on me. And another thing that I learned from all of this, so I. Became really fascinated by a field called public history. And this is studying the way that history kind of plays out or gets fixed in popular culture. So we spent a lot of time studying. We started studied museums and sculptures and like, what does history look like in cinema and what does that have to say about like, what stories do we fixate to tell on about. Mark: Mm-hmm. Robin: And it, it just gave me this understanding that like history is not just this like fixed narrative, like this happened in the past and then this happened. It's the study of history is as much about the stories that we tell about what happened. And it's fascinating because the past becomes this, like, it's almost like this mythical thing and we will project our own. Fascinations and insecurities onto this to tell us like what this all meant and it's, I see this a lot in the Pagan community or in Paganism where, you know, you take something like the Druids, like we don't honestly historically know that much about the Druids. We don't have a lot of, we don't have any written records from dues themselves. We just have accounts from outside. But because it's rich in, in symbolism, we just kind of project whatever we wanna see onto that based on the very little bit of evidence that we have. And so that always just kind of fascinated me and it, it really forced me to take a look at Paganism as a whole and really kind of made me skeptical about the community for a while cuz I would see so many people like spouting things about the burning time without fact checking it. And it, it made me more critical, which I was always kind of like leaning towards that. But yeah. Mark: Yeah. I, I really share that. I mean, you know, I, I spent so many years in the Pagan community. I spent like, You know, 27 years or something in the Pagan community kind of playing along and trying not to roll my eyes at certain stuff, like, you know, the, the, the deity stuff, but particularly the take on history, you know, with the, you know, the. The sweet goddess worshiping rural agrarian who, you know, lived in perfect paradisical harmony with one another in nature. And then were trampled by the terrible bronze wielding, you know, horse riding kurgans. I mean, it was just, it was so obviously a fable and I mean, there are, there are bits of truth in it. Like any good myth, you know, it's, Pieces of stuff that's accurate, but and where it's pointing is very positive. You know, the empowerment of women, yay. Good. But the story itself when it becomes an article of faith just really, really drove me crazy. Robin: Yeah, and I'm slowly working my way through Ronald Hutton's triumph of the Moon and. Fascinating cuz he's a historian and he talks about sort of the roots of neo paganism. And one thing that fascinated me was that he talked about, you know, for a long time whenever people talked about classicism, it was always Jupiter or Zeus in the Greek pantheon that people focused on. But it wasn't until like the romantics popped up and all of a sudden the focus was on pan. And that idea of like this divine feminism kind of like lost goddess kind of took hold too. And it's, it's fascinating the way those narratives about the past can constantly change based on. What's going on in the modern world? In this case it was, you know, like the growth of industrialization kind of drove this shift to, well, we're not so much interested in, in, in Jupiter and Jov, we're more interested in like the wildness of Pan. Mark: Right. Yeah. Yeah, I love that book. And there are pagans who hate it a lot. There are people that are very, very angry with Hutton for, for one thing, for really documenting that there was no unbroken lineage of witchcraft from down through the misty Yucca: That grandmother gave to grandmother and yeah. Mark: Which doesn't mean that there aren't family folklore traditions, I mean there clearly are. But the idea that they go back to the paleolithic or something is just a little bit stretched. Robin: Yeah. And I think if, if your, your belief system is so built on, you know, poking a few holes in a myth is suddenly gonna make the whole thing unravel. You need to re rethink it. Like the, it's good to rethink it. So, Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, indeed. Well, why don't we change the subject a little bit. You serve on the atheopagan Society Council in fact, you were one of the founding members of the atheopagan Society Council. What do you see as your role there and what are you trying to accomplish For the community? Robin: Yeah. So I hope I at least have been able to, I feel like I have drawn. A lot on my experience in communities and kind of building communities. I also really hope that I have brought a commit commitment to equity and inclusion. You know, I'm not by any measure a perfect ally. I come with a lot of privilege and it's. The work of a lifetime to really unravel and understand that privilege. But I hope that I'm at least making some progress there. And I've the other thing is like I do, I've done a lot of projects for the commu the community. I'm great at coming up with ideas. I'm less great at keeping those projects going all of the time. But I hope that the projects that I've, I've done and, and the things that I've done are giving people chances not to just like, like I don't want them to just kind of be given like, here's, you know, here's our beliefs, here's what you need to do. I, I hope that I'm giving people opportunities to really consider what their beliefs are and what. they want their practice to look like and then share with others what that looks like. So like, I'm trying to think of all the projects I've done. I did, I think the first thing I ever did was I did a weekly tarot share where it would just be like a random card and everybody say like, this is what I see. This is how I interpret it. That one has actually managed, that's like the one project that's managed to keep going. It's changed cans a couple times, but still going. So, I don't think the person, I don't know if the person who's running it wants to be named, so I won't, I won't name them, but yeah. Yeah. I did for a little while, I was doing a non theist pagan photo share, which is always a mouthful. We need to rebrand that, but, The idea was I wanted, It was focused a lot on Instagram, so I wanted other people who weren't necessarily identifying as atheopagan to maybe feel like they could participate, which is why it has such a weird name. But yeah, the idea was we, I, I love the like witchy photo challenges on Instagram where they give you like a day. Usually they go for a month and every day you have a different theme. And so that was the idea. We had a different theme based around non theist, paganism and if anybody wants to take that up, it it was a lot of fun and it wasn't that hard to run. So if you want to take that up and do that again, I'd be so excited. Mark: I would be so excited if there were somebody in our community that. Wanted to be a point person for Instagram. I mean, we, we do have an account technically, but it hasn't been posted to in forever. It would, that would just be really cool. Robin: Yeah. Yeah, there's, I mean, there's so much, there's a lot of fun things you can do with Instagram. So, I also Ryan or ran with Tom, the not, or we had an L G B T Q discussion group, which kind of took a hiatus and then we had an affinity group form, so we kind of put it into their, into their hands. We have a, or had a book club. It's kind of on HI hiatus right now or try to figure out how to bring that back. And then I run the Ohio atheopagan group. So Mark: Mm-hmm. Robin: yeah, there's. For me, I kind of have to like, like the thing is I'm great at coming up with ideas. I kind of have to pump the brakes a little bit because we are in some ways growing so fast that I don't wanna like throw too much out there without knowing that it can be sustained. So, Mark: that's a conversation we're really having a lot right now. You know, about getting some infrastructure up underneath all this stuff that's already grown. You know, rather than putting a huge focus on growth over the course of the next couple of years, you know, just sort of building all the scaffolding Yucca: and making sure we don't get burnout because this is all volunteer. So, you know, making sure our attention isn't into too many places or too much all at once. Mark: I was surprised that you didn't mention the library for the Ethiopian Society website. That was a big project you Robin: It was that is another one that's kind of on hiatus right now. Yeah. I'd love for me, and I work in a library, so keep in mind I'm biased here, but for me, libraries have always been this kind of like magical, almost sacred place, like these like halls of knowledge. I. Contractually obligated to now pour one out for the Library of Alexandria as I Yucca: Right. Robin: So, you know, to me, I would love to see I mean like a physical library is probably not gonna be an atheopagan. Pagan physical library's not gonna be in the cards for. A very long time, if ever, but that doesn't mean that we can't have resources in place to go if we want to learn something new. And this the thing. Another remarkable thing about this community is that there's so many people who are so curious and creative that I'd love to have a place where they can just say like, I wanna learn about this. I wanna learn about meditation, or I wanna learn about you know, ancient history, or I wanna learn about evolution. And sort of that like, tale of life coming into being. and then having a place where they can do that in different ways and as many formats as they want. So, yeah, the idea is to kind of, the idea at least initially was to build a library with resources that people submit and say like, Hey, this is something that I found interesting and helpful on my journey. And then we'll kind of put it together in one place so people can find it. It's been a little bit humbling cuz I was like, I'm a librarian. I could figure out how to make a website that does that. And it turns out that's really much harder than than I, I thought initially going into it was gonna be so I am humbled But yeah, it's something I'd still love to see happen. And I'm kind of waiting to again see like what, like this is something I think that the community needs because it's really special to me. I love and I'm kind of waiting, engaging as we do some strategic planning to figure out like, okay, does this actually fulfill a need that we have in this moment or is that ener energy best spent on something else? So, yeah, bit of a hiatus, but hopefully someday it is my dream. Mark: is some very cool stuff there though. So if you haven't gone to v ap society.org and clicked on library there's a long list. There's downloadable resources, there's There's like an ex Excel sheet that will point you in a lot of different directions. There's a link to our Good Reads shelf, that's this huge collection of books that have been submitted by the community. There's community resources, there's ritual resources. So, there's a lot of stuff there, even though, I mean, it doesn't have the most wizbang interface in the world but it's still pretty. Robin: you did a great job plugging that. Thank you. Yucca: Well, speaking of the future what is your vision for atheopagan his future? Robin: You know, right now I, I would love to see our in-person communities growing. I think especially after the pandemic, like so many people. , we ended up losing communities that we had just because we couldn't physically be there for a while. And you know, like sometimes in your life you leave communities or you know, little circles that you've been in, you have to leave them for some reason or other, but it just happened all at once for so many of us where, you know, now we wanna go back to these places or back to seeing the people we did before and they've all at once, like they've moved away or So, especially with that upheaval, I think I just feel like we're ready for like that in-person connection again. I, I worry sometimes though that y because we have members who aren't necessarily able to mix that way. Like, I don't see Or sorry, we, we have members who, you know, for, they have disabilities or things that make them high risk so that they aren't able yet to go back to in person. But I, I hope that those who are ready and and willing to do that can have an opportunity to do so safely. Yeah. And I think long-term, having more local groups is just gonna be more sustainable. Like I loved coming to Century to see all of you, but in some ways for sustainability of the Earth, it just makes sense to have more local communities so that you don't have to fly halfway across the country to be part of a community. So I hope. Yeah, so I hope we see more in-person communities and I'm gonna do, we're gonna do a gathering at the, for the Ohio atheopagan soon in, in March. And yeah, I'm so excited. I didn't, we did one several months ago but I hope. I'm kind of hoping to like turn the ideas or Ohio Athe, pagans should know. I'm probably gonna be like, try and turn them into Guinea pigs to see if, like I can create something fun to do that we could recreate someplace else. So, Mark: Any. Resources like that that you have that would be useful to affinity groups, really welcome you to submit those and get those out into the community. I know that a lot of affinity groups are sort of, they're flailing a little bit about, you know, how do I do this? How do I find people what do we do, you know, if we do a get together, you know, well, what do we do during our get together? Robin: Yeah. And three years ago it would've been like, oh, just go to, you know, go to Starbucks, go to Panera, hang out and talk. And we. Like, some of our members aren't ready for that yet. And so looking, I'm trying to find other options that isn't like, you know, hang out in a cafe and take your mask off. It's more like, so what we're we're doing in the March gathering is we're gonna make journals. So, I'm just gonna bring stuff and we're, we'll make some journals. I went down this rabbit hole about book finding, so, yeah, hopefully something cool comes out of it. Yucca: Is March warm enough in your part of the world to be outside or it'll be indoors with masks? Yeah. Robin: we're, we're meeting at a library, which if you're looking for like a free place to meet, Check out your local library. Some libraries have meeting rooms that you can book. As long as the library's not using it for a program they're usually happy to to let you book them. So, check that out. In community centers yeah, but March in Ohio, it may be 70 degrees out and it may be snowing. We have no snowing until approximately five minutes before the time. What, which one it will be. Yucca: Right Robin: Yeah, which I remember New Mexico being kind of like that in March too. So. Yucca: Absolutely. Yes. Mark: Comes in like a lion or comes in like a lamb, as they say. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, that's a, I mean, I, I think that's a particularly rich and fruitful vein for us to, to, to mine in, in developing the Ethiopia Pagan community because, I mean, ultimately, Paganism, the earth orientation of Paganism is very local, right? It's really, really place based. And so, you know, developing your own traditions for your own local area that are about your own climate cycle, your own landmarks, your own biota that are there. I mean, I just, I have this very rosy sort of picture. Little knots of atheopagan all over the world, you know, kind of working up their own ritual cycles and traditions and it's, it's very heartwarming when I think about it. Robin: Yeah, and I love that focus too. On, on. Ecosystems cuz like you, I can't help but notice you have a background. Your background is like mountains with lupus in it, which is a very spring-like thing in California. But here it's like, like we aren't gonna see those spring flowers until April if we're lucky So Mark: right. Robin: yeah, I mean, I remember snowstorms on May 1st. Happy melting. Aren't you glad Springs here? Mark: Yeah, it could be worse. Could be raining. I have danced a may pole in the pouring rain. people were just like, they're not taking our may pole away from us. Yucca: Slosh, slosh, Mark: Yeah, exactly. And I had a terrible cold afterwards and the whole thing was pretty miserable, but we danced the May pole that year, Robin: That's great. Mark: so, Robin, are there other topics you'd like to talk about? Things, important things for the community or you know, kind of suggestions of things we could do with a podcast or, you know, any of that kind of stuff. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but. Robin: Number one, I would love to come on and talk about, I could do like six episodes on children's books. I wouldn't Yucca: should definitely do that. Robin: That's probably a lot. But I would love to come on and talk about children's books and some of my favorite children's books cuz like I said, I can talk, talk about 'em for a long time and there's just so much rich art and poetry in them that I think I think we need to appreciate some more. So yeah, I'd love to talk about that. Maybe, hopefully we'll get to relaunch that library and I can come and talk about just library resources too. So, yeah, and yeah, like I said, like I, I have ideas. I don't wanna just like start spouting him off because I don't know how much is going to be realistic. But yeah, Mark: Yeah, there's a, oh, I'm sorry. Go Robin: Oh, I, I just hope we have more good things to come. Mark: Oh, I'm sure of it. I'm sure of it. The, I was gonna say, You know, I've worked in the nonprofit sector for a really long time, and there is a thing that happens with young organizations where they can actually die by opportunity. They just get stretched in so many different directions by all the opportunities and ideas that get tossed in the hopper, and they lose focus and they just kind of fall. And we, we really need to be careful about that because there is a lot of wonderful stuff we could be doing. I mean, at the Sun Retreat we had a suggestion to create resources for starting campus chapters, like on college campuses or even high schools. I think it's a fantastic idea and I definitely think it's on the back burner. It's something we shouldn't talk about for the next three years. Robin: Yeah. Well, and, and that's not to say that we. At least make some movement towards that. Like, you know, I don't see cuz like I'm, I'm not a college student, I probably am not gonna be able to go out and create a campus chapter of atheopagan. But there are already existing lots of. Of colleges have Pagan student organizations. Maybe the middle ground there is we say, Hey, well, you know, I volunteer. I will come out to your Pagan campus organization meeting and give you a presentation about atheopagan. So, like there's, there is like, there is a way to scale it back if that's something that we're interested in doing, but don't necessarily have the resources to do 100%. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. We would need to create sort of a packet about how you set up your group and but then what I like about your suggestion is that most people live in an area where there are only a few colleges. So they would only be making a handful of presentations instead of managing a program, like a national program of college chapters. Robin: Yeah. And, and I think it gives, you know, if there are people in those college groups that already exist, an opportunity just to know that atheopagan is an option. Like you don't have to be like deity based in order to be pagan and. And like, even if they don't go on to create their own atheopagan college organization they still have those resources and, and that knowledge and that can be really empowering. Mark: Yeah, and it helps to build open-mindedness in the new, in an upcoming generation of Pagans too. You know, because one of the things that non theist pagans have experienced in some parts of paganism is real pushback from theistic pagans who are kind of threatened by the idea of people not believing in their gods. And I think exposing people to these ideas can help them to become more comfortable with just as an option, as another, another possible way for people to be. Robin: Yeah. Well, and I think you did were you the one who wrote a blog post saying that like, atheopagan, or I'm sorry, humanistic paganism was like the number three blog now, or Mark: that was actually John c Cleland host over on the naturalistic paganism blog. Yeah. That it's kind of amazing. I don't know how they calculate this, but there it is. Robin: Yeah. And it, I'm gonna make a bold prediction, and I, I might be wrong, but I do think that, and I, I experienced a little bit of that early on, but I, it's just become less and less common now. Like I started, I, I have like a TikTok where I occasionally talk about Ethiopia, paganism, and it's like, by no means like an official Ethiopia, pagan thing, but I was expecting like somebody to be like, you can't be this. And I, I've gotten nothing but positive comments on it or people saying, oh my gosh, I didn't know this was a thing. This is great. So I, I'm just gonna make a bold prediction and say that I think I hope will be a problem in the past, Yucca: Yeah. Robin: I, it's a really actually interesting question to think about. What would, like, what will the Gen Z pagans be like? That could be , that could be a whole podcast episode, Mark: Oh yeah. Yeah. Cause I mean, it's interesting. What I have seen is that an awful lot of the kind of boomer, gen X pagans, they have kids who are now grown who are not practicing. A lot of them are, are not continuing in paganism, and some of that may be because of experiences that they had as kids at Pagan festivals. Either being ignored or uncomfortable, I don't know, but kind of a thing. Robin: One thing that gives me so much hope about Gen Z and these young generations is they're so diverse. They're exposed way more to different ideas than I ever was as a kid and that older generations. So that is what gives me the most hope like they are. They are very much they have a lot of what's the word I'm looking for? Cultural. They, they have a lot of cultural competency and they have a lot more perspectives and ask access to more perspectives than we did growing up. And so, and they care. Like they, they, they're very active and they gimme a lot of. Mark: Me too. The, the amount of care that I see young people taking with making sure to properly gender one another and, you know, to, to try to draw diverse people into their circles of friends. It's, it's so different than it was when I was a kid. And it, it may very well be that what we're seeing is not that paganism is being abandoned, it's that the last generation's paganism is being abandoned. And that's a very different thing because I mean, I do see a lot of spontaneous ritual creation going on. I mean, the. Which thing is very much alive and well. But maybe it's not, you know, descended from Gerald Gardner and, you know, traditional in that way, which is fine. Robin: and there's, I mean, there's things, if we look back, Joe Gardner, I mean, there were things then that were problematic and Mark: Oh yeah. Robin: I, I hope that they're going to create a craft that That reflects more modern values Mark: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Well, that's certainly what we're trying to do. You know, that's, that's why we have the principles and it's why we have ongoing conversations about to be the best people we can. Yucca: I think it's exciting. It's, there's been so much change in just the last few years, so. Mark: Yeah. And the inevitable backlash, of course, Yucca: No, that's how it goes. Mark: yeah. But backlashes don't last. They, and they generally don't win. So, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: I mean, the only, the only one that I can think of that has won successfully, is now under siege for women who refuse to wear hijabs. So, in Iran Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean the, the Iranian revolution was definitely a backlash to western colonization of Iran. But now they're having a backlash to the backlash, and hopefully they're gonna modernize. I would hope. Robin: Yeah, it's just because like sometimes we look at these efforts as like, this is doomed. Like, you are not going to win this fight to resegregate the the us us. But to me, I mean, I worry though that just because something is doomed doesn't mean that it isn't going to cause harm as it happens. Mark: Sure it's gonna hurt people. It is hurting people, and we have to be really aware of that and do what we can to minimize that. Robin: Yeah. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Well, Robin, it has been wonderful talking with you and we are definitely gonna have you back to talk about children's books. I can envision a series now on atheopagan Parenting. Robin: Yeah, I do not volunteer to talk about parenting because I do not have children. I love children. I do not have children. But I will happily always talk about literacy and books. So we should do it. Yucca: and I, I think the books would be wonderful for parents, but as you were talking about, children's books aren't just for children. , right? There's so much, you know, I read a lot of children's books cuz I have kids, but I have my favorites that I'm like, don't you wanna read this one? I'll just put this one on the top of the pile. And frankly, if I didn't have them, I'd probably still be wanting to read those, the kids books, even without kids, because there's, I mean, sometimes the art is amazing and you know, there's just so much. So I hope that that would be valuable too to our listeners who aren't parents or don't have. Younger people in their lives. Robin: Yeah, and I will say as from a librarian perspec librarian's perspective, like just because a book is written more with the parents in mind doesn't like, just because it's a book that the parents love a lot and the kids are like, oh, whatever. Kids enjoy spending time with adults and they learn from having books read to them and they in, they like, the thing is they will laugh because you're laughing or they will think something's funny because you're la you're, you think it's funny and that quality time with your kid. As long as the book's not completely going over their head it it, it's gonna benefit them. They are gonna learn from that and they're gonna learn to love reading and they're gonna learn to love books and learn to be curious about the world. So like, I give, like one of the books I give out a lot and recommend a lot. I, I recommend it because the parents think it's funny. Like kids are like, yeah, it's cool. I like it. But the parents are the ones who are laughing at the inside jokes. And that's the book is mother Bruce by Ryan Higgins. So like, and it's to, it's about a, a grumpy bear who mostly likes to make recipes that he found on the internet. And parents always laugh at that part. And then kids see them laugh and laugh. Yucca: I'm gonna write that one down. I have not heard that mother Bruce. Robin: short version. it's cute. And then there's, there's this like whole mistake and identity thing and it's hilarious. And it's hilarious to parents. Kids think it's funny, but parents think it's really funny. So, short story. Don't feel like just because it's a book that you, that is kind of more aimed at you doesn't mean that your kids aren't getting something out of it. So, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Yep. Well, Robin, thank you so much. Robin: You are welcome. Thank you for having me. Thank you for, I hope I didn't ramble too much, Yucca: Oh, this was fantastic. I think a lot of great stuff. Yeah. Thank you. Mark: Yeah. Robin: thanks. Yucca: All right, well, we'll see everybody next week. Thanks so much. Robin: Have a good evening.
Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E3 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the Wonders Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark. Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we're going to talk about practices and developing a practice carrying one on keeping one fresh and alive. All those things about having a personal. Yucca: right. And we hope that there'll be a lot of useful ideas and information for people who are just starting, but also for people who have had a practice and are looking for ways to. Continue to develop that or kind of stay in the habit of it. Mark: Right, because a practice is a wonderful thing to have, and it can also, if you're doing the same thing for months or years on end, you can also start. To feel a little routine, a little stale. And there are things you can do to sort of blow yourself out of that normality, get out of the rut, and try some new things that can incorporate into your practice in really enlivening waves. So that's part of what we're gonna talk about at the end of the program. But at first, let's start talking about developing a pro a a practice. When you're first starting. Yucca: right. Mark: When you come to Athe paganism or naturalistic paganism in some kind of sense, and you're like, okay, this cosmology totally works for me, right? I'm a science-based person, I'm a reason based person. You know, this evidence-based approach to spirituality, you know, really rings my bell. So now what do I do about that? Well, okay, I'm gonna celebrate these stations of holidays around the course of the year. That's great, right? That will help you to plug into the cycles of nature. And that's really what we're about, is about having a deep relationship with nature. Understanding ourselves as organisms that are a part of nature. That's a great thing, but what about day-to-day? , you know, the, the Sabbaths are seven, eight weeks apart, right? It's, it's, and at least for me, it's not enough to say, okay, every seven or eight weeks, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna pay attention to Nature I, I need more than that. So, Many people have a daily practice, or in some cases a monthly practice that's organized around the cycles of the moon. Yucca: Mm-hmm. . Right. So I think that a, a really good place to start, and this is whether you're coming in fresh or have had a practice for a while, is to really do some. Some reflecting upon what, why? Why do you want this practice? What, what is meaningful to you? What are your goals? What are you hoping to accomplish? Because it really is about what you are trying to get out of it, right? We don't have any Gods looking down on us who want us to perform this special thing at this special time. It's no what? What is it for you? Why are you doing it for you? And that could be a lot of different things and it's gonna be different for it's different for Mark and for me and for you. And it's gonna be different at different points in our own lives. Mark: for sure, because maybe your primary focus is your family unit, right? Maybe what you're trying to do is to create culture and and values for your family, and so demonstrating those and creating experiences that reinforce them. is sort of the centerpiece, the, the core ethic of what you're seeking to accomplish. That's great. Right. But that's gonna be a practice that's about finding the right childhood stories, right, and creating the kinds of household observances that give you and your children and partners Yucca: household members, whoever they are. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, the, the kind of experience that reinforces the values and, and cosmology that you find really meaningful. So all of that is great. But in, on the other hand, you may be a solitary person. You may either be a solo person or someone who is partnered with someone that isn't interested in your path, and so you're doing this yourself and you're trying to find, how do I do this in a way that continually fuels that sense of meaning Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: that I'm getting out of this. Practice of being an atheopagan or a naturalistic pagan and some of that may be okay. I'm engaging with people in the online communities. I am reading stuff that's being distributed by. The atheopagan Society or you know, various science writers or all that kind of stuff. But it can also be how am I gonna challenge myself to jump over some things that feel like hurdles for me? Yucca: Hmm. Mark: How am I gonna make myself bigger? How am I gonna stretch? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Because one of the things that we're really about as atheopagan or naturalistic pagans is the, the affirmation of the self, right? Yucca: right. Mark: We're, we're not about telling you that you've got original sin and you're small and need to be fixed. , our ethic is entirely different. It's about you are glorious and golden and we want you to bring the you that is you out into the world with as much visibility and vigor as you possibly can. And that's a radically different way of approaching things than the over culture wants you to approach them with. But at the same time, , it's much healthier. Yucca: right. and your practice is also a way that you can build in health into your life, right? That self care, that and, and thinking about how it feels to be you every day so it's really an opportunity for you to, to look at how you want to feel each day or each week or through the seasons, and to work towards that. It's a tool for you to be able to feel the way and experience, have the type of experiences you want in your life. Mark: yes. Yes. We have to remember that unlike many other religious paths, the point of our practice is happiness and self-actualization and to help make the world a better place. It's not about serving the edicts of some other power or some list of rules or any of. . So it's important in building your personal individual daily or weekly or monthly or whatever it is, practice that you keep that in mind. How is this helping me to be happy? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: How is this bringing more meaning into my life when I light those candles on my focus every night? Why do I do that? I don't do it just because it's a habit. I do it because it's meaningful to me, and the things that I say at that moment are moving to me, even though I see them every night. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And if that starts to get really dry or routines such that I lose the magic of it, magic in quotes, right? Then it's time for me to make some changes. It's time for me to figure out how can I make this practice feel like I'm pushing the edge. Yucca: right? Yeah. So why don't we talk about a few things that, that people might consider after sitting down. And really thinking about what it is that they want to achieve with their practice. And last week we were talking quite a bit about the Wheel of the Year, and that's a great place to start, right? With a, with a seasonal a seasonal regional approach. But what about a weekly or daily kind of practice? Mark: Yeah, the thing about the wheel of the year is that it happens pretty slowly and so, and it can take you a year of observing what's happening in nature around you at every given station of the Wheel of the year in order to get a good grip on, here's what I'm gonna celebrate as we go around, right? A year or more, maybe more cycles than that. But what you can do immediately is you can start doing a weekly practice or a daily practice, or if you like, you can follow the moon cycles and do like a monthly practice Yucca: or all of those, Mark: or, or all of those. I mean, if you're really gung-ho and you wanna do lots of ritual practices, then you know, by all means, it's, it's available to you and you're free to do it, and there's nothing wrong with it. It's good for you. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So when it comes to a daily practice, what I think about is what's gonna help me feel better connected. Yucca: Mm. Mark: You know, what I really want is to feel like I'm connected to nature and to this vast cosmos that gave rise to us. I want to, I want to acknowledge that on a daily basis. And so that's what I. that's what I do. And I also want to acknowledge what has gone before because I feel like, you know, if what had gone before hadn't gone before, I wouldn't be here. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So there's Yucca: tiniest little difference and he wouldn't be here and it's so many places. Yeah. Mark: absolutely. So there, there are so many reasons why. I mean, many of us, if not all of us, practicing this path have a lot of data in our heads about evolution and fossils and the progression of animal development over time. You know it, and maybe further back, further back into, you know, the earliest microorganisms all. Understanding of evolution and the development of the planet and the development of the sun and all those things. How do I make that personal to me in this moment? Because yes, it's history, but it's still going on right now, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: The, the, the burning of the sun is happening right now. The evolution of the earth is happening right now, and I am a piece. Yucca: right? Mark: So thinking about how you can develop a practice that acknowledges that somehow is something that's really valuable. And I can't understate the significance of lighting candles. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: You know, it seems, it seems very ordinary because you know, every church you go to, they like candles. Well, why do they do? Yucca: there's a reason for it. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. There is a reason for it, and the reasons to my mind are threefold. The first is there is a magic to creating fire out of nothing. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: You got this match, you got this candle. They're both these cold inanimate objects, but then suddenly there's. And that creates light and heat. It's, it's a, it's an inherently mysterious and incredible experience for us. Right. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So that's the first piece. The second piece is that we, Resonate psychologically to low light conditions, especially flickering low light conditions. This is why every bar you go into has low light conditions. Every dance club you go into has low light conditions because they understand that people will feel more free and liberated if they don't feel like they're being stared at, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and bright light makes them feel like they're being stared. So those are two of the big pieces. And then the third is that there's something about the ignition of fire on a focus or altar of symbolic objects that feels like bringing it to life. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And that sounds very woo and okay. but it feels like bringing it to life, it feels like, okay, these were, these were sedentary inanimate objects sitting on a shelf, but now there is a living process happening in the middle of them, right? Yucca: Hmm. Mark: That is shedding light and heat, and is also making all of those objects somehow engaged in an active process. And I think that all three of those things together really contribute to a personal practice. To a daily practice. And there's something very significant about taking that moment, you know, listening to your deeper longing. and saying, okay, you know, we're doing our evening thing. There's kids, there's there's movies to watch, there's dinner, there's all that kind of stuff. But I need 15 minutes to myself. I'm gonna light these candles and I'm gonna sit in near darkness, I'm gonna contemplate the fact that I'm alive. I'm alive and I'm here and it's rare and it's special and it's unique. There will never be another person and never be another organism like me. I'm this unique manifestation of the universe living a life, a temporary, small life, and I'm gonna seize this 15 minutes to really get. that's what I do with my daily practice. That that's, that's the difference that it makes in my life. Yucca: Hmm. That's so beautiful and thank you for sharing that with us. Yeah, for us. I don't have 15 minutes Mark: Yeah, I, I hear. Yucca: And. . I mean, there, there are moments where there are 15 minutes in the day, of course, but but because I have young children that for me to get time to be alone means waking up at three in the morning. And that's what I do to work sometimes when I really need to concentrate. I get up at three in the morning and that's, that's what does it. But. Have a little bit of a different approach for the daily practice. We have a, a morning and an evening, and it's something that brings the kids into it that they have as well. And I find that with, and then I have a lot of little things that I do throughout the day as well. But these are the big, the core and really the morning practices, the main one. It's the first thing that we do and it really sets this, the tone for the rest of the day. So we. . And if it's the summer, we'll actually go outside. And then in the winter we don't go outside for this because it's too way, way too cold. Cuz we live in a, a climate that gets very cold below freezing in the mornings. So, but we'll go to the window and we have a little wooden. Sign that we painted together with just some little kind of morning affirmations that we, that we came up with together that talk about some of the things like remembering that, you know, that we can control how, how our thoughts make us feel and kind of some things like that that are important to us. But we start with saying good morning to the. And just taking a moment to breathe together, three deep breaths, breathing together, looking at the sun, saying good morning to it. And, and I'm very pleased the kids have noticed how each day or over time, not each day, but over time, where the sun is when we do it, has changed. Right? They're noticing that, oh, the sun is over here now, but it used to be over there when it was rising. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: that there are some, we. Always talk about, you know, what are some things that we're grateful for and, you know, what are the kinds of challenges that might come that we might face today? And how, you know, how can we address overcoming that, right? If, if the days that planning is that we're going to go to grandma's house, but then the tires flatten, we can't go to grandma's house, you know, we kind of practice ahead of time, like, oh, how are we gonna prepare for that? And that helps that when it does most of the time, the bad stuff doesn't happen. but when it does, you go, oh, we talked about this. Right? And then talk about what it is that we're gonna focus on in ourselves, practice in ourselves. And, you know, it takes three, four minutes and it completely changes the day. And then Mark: Well, and it can, and it completely changes your kids Yucca: yeah. Mark: doing. Raises them to be very different people than if you hadn't done that. Yucca: Hmm. . Yeah. Well, Mark: significant. Yucca: yeah. Well, I think e everything that we do and that I, we have, there's too much pressure on parents already, but everything that we do, every choice that we're making is influencing their foundation for the world and how they understand the world. And this moment there, there's this, this thing that we do in our culture sometimes is that like childhood doesn't count some. Oh, it's just preparing for real life, right? I remember being at being in school, and it was always about preparing to be in middle school, and then it was preparing to be in high school, and then preparing to be in college, and then preparing to be in the real, and it felt so strange and empty after getting out of school. It was like, well, Mark: Now Yucca: the real life, right? It's like, no, no, no. This is the moment. This is the only moment that we have. Maybe we're lucky enough that there will be, that we will get to be here in five years or 10 years, but we don't know if we. Mark: that's. Yucca: I hope so much. I, I really, really hope and am doing everything I can to try and make sure that my kids will be here in 20 years, but they might not, we might all die in a car crash tomorrow. Right. So what we do today matters so much because it is the only moment that we actually have. Right. So our, our practice is really about trying to. To be really present and intentional Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: because, you know, we, we, as you were saying, we are this special rare being that is just for a moment, just the tiniest moment. So what, so what can I do to feel, to be aware of that? . Right. And then the end of the day practice that we do is, is very similar. We have another little piece of art that we made and and over time we'll probably change out what that piece of art is, but it has another little thing that we, that we read together, and then we talk about the things that we saw during the day, the things that we observed and felt. Also have a little like release ritual where we can release the, okay, the day's done, what happened happened, right? I can't change what happened, I can let go of that, but I can think about how I'm gonna do it differently in the future, but now it's time to rest and to let be what is. And so those are really the very first thing we. when we get up, well, when they get up . And the very first thing they, we do, and when we go to. now as an adult I steal moments out of the day and most of my, my personal that isn't with the, the kids practice actually is in the bathroom because that's the only place that I can lock the door, right? So I think that there's moments in our lives when we're trying to build in habits and practices that are, are placed, things that we're already. I'm sure there's some term for it, but a habit that you have, like every day you do certain things, at least every day. You go to the bathroom multiple times a day, but most people probably have a, a routine when they get outta bed. Yeah. You do this and then you go and you, if you, if you're a coffee drinker, first thing you do is you. The water on for your coffee or something like that. And that's a moment. There's a lot of power in those because you can add something in there. That's where you can add in a moment of, oh, I'm gonna take a moment and ground right while my coffee is brewing. I'm gonna ground every day. and you can slip that in and you can find places. It's gonna be different for everyone. I don't do a lot of commuting any now, any, any more now, but when I did, I had a thing when I got into my car and I put the keys in the ignition. That was a, that was my cue to, okay, what is the, I'd have a little ritual that I would do, so just remind me to be present and, and set intention and that sort of thing. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: So that's where we are right now. And of course, as life changes, those practices change, but you know, it's, people can find in their own lives what their, what do they wanna do, what's the intention that they have and, and how to do that. Mark: Sure. And one of the things that's great about this path and. Living it in a family is that you can go to, you know, you, you can go to your kids at 10 and say, well, we're gonna keep doing the the morning thing that we do, but, You know, you can have your own practice now too. You can have your own daily practice, and I mean, I'm happy to help you with ideas about that, but it's yours and it can be whatever you want it to be, so that as people are being developed and launched into adulthood, they're doing that with not only. A really strong sense of connectedness and a family support and of all those things, but also of of personal empowerment to make choices about what happens with them psychologically. One of the things that I find really a little shocking about the the Christian over culture is that because. Puts everything in the hands of its God. We aren't taught anything about the ritual tools that would help us to be happier, less paranoid, less hostile, more joyous, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: more creative and, and ritual skills will do all those things for. Yucca: Great. Mark: that's a lot of what the atheopagan path is about, is about unlocking your capacity as an individual to express those things in your unique way, which is unlike anybody else's. Yucca: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And that's, that's part of what we're trying to do with the practice. So we've just given some ideas for, just shared some of our own ideas for daily practices but that there's also the opportunity for other timeframes, right? A weekly practice or as we talked about, a, a monthly, so a lunar and then seasonal. So are there, there any things that you practice on a weekly basis? Mark: Well, I wanna step back for a second because I really want to appreciate the conscientiousness and the care that you bring to raising your kids in this tradition. I, I think. I mean, I just, I really wanna honor your, your, your carefulness about wanting your kids to have an experience that really unfolds them. And I, I just, I just think that's really great. So I wanted to say, so Yoko. Yucca: Well, thank you. Well, we're, we're really grateful to have an amazing community to be part of in all of that, right? Mark: Yeah, me too. Me too. I'm psyched about it. Yucca: yeah. Mark: So, yes, there are alternatives if you. One of the things that's really important to get about all of this, and we probably should have said it a long time before, is none of this is obligatory, Yucca: right. Mark: right? There's no guilt trip about missing a day in your daily practice or missing two weeks in your daily practice. There's no, the point is to help you be happier and more actualized, right? If, if life gets in the way, well, life got in the way. And when the time rolls around again, when you feel comfortable restarting you there, there are no apologies to be made. There's, there's no shame. Just go back to it, start it again. That's all fine. And the same thing is true if a daily practice isn't right for you. Well then maybe you want to do something once a week. Yucca: right? Mark: I mean, the Christians have their Sunday, right? And Yucca: lot of religions have, Mark: have their Friday into Saturday. There's, yes, there are a lot of religions that have a day that is very special for them. Well, you can declare one if you want, Yucca: Right. Mark: or you can declare an hour one day a week when you're gonna do your. Yucca: right? Mark: your ritual things that help you to feel connected and feel filled with the enormity of yourself and of the universe is the way that I would say that. So don't worry about all that. Find a cadence that works for you and maybe if you work 60 hours a week and have three kids, Maybe that's not very often. Maybe it's just like I'm gonna celebrate the full moons and the Wheel of the year Sabbaths, and that's all I can manage. Yucca: Mm-hmm. , or I'm gonna add. A daily thing in that when I wash my face in the morning, I'm gonna take 60 seconds extra to do something. Right. And I think now might be a good PO place to put in a reminder that a practice is something that when practices, it may not be easy in the. Mark: right. Yucca: right? Just because you decide, oh yes, I'm gonna do this every day. Doesn't mean you're gonna remember every day, but the more times you do, the more times you do it, the better you get at the skill. But it is, it is a skill, right? So if it's something that really is important to you and it's something that you choose to to work on, then that's something that over time, , you'll be able to develop, but you don't have to beat yourself up if it doesn't come naturally. In the beginning, I don't know who it would come natural for. Mark: Yeah, I, I, I don't either. And one of the reasons why we call it a practice is because you have to practice, right? It's, it's not an action. It's not a thing that you do, and then it's done. It's not a destination, it's a practice, which means it's an ongoing process. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And the day when you feel really angry, Fucked up and unable to deal with anything. is as good a day for your practice as any other day, because that's as true humanly as anything else. Yucca: Or perhaps even more important that day than other days Mark: Maybe. Maybe so. Yucca: maybe that is really the day that, that you need to, that you do need the time in front of the candle or the breathing or whatever it is that you do, Mark: Yeah, Yucca: right? Mark: because. . You know, if the world has really beat on you hard in a given day, you know, maybe you need to gather yourself back together and remember your reasons for self-esteem. Remember your reasons why you're doing what you're doing. And remember that no matter what has happened out there in the world, people don't see you for the entirety of who you. they can't, even if they know you for years, they can't. But if they don't, or if they only see you in really constrained situations like a professional office or something like that, they cannot know the enormity of who you are. And you need to, you need to hold the reality of that in yourself, even if they don. Yucca: right. Mark: Even if they aren't reflecting back to you how glorious you are, you still are is what I want to say to you. Yucca: Yes. Mark: Humans are magnificent and you're one of 'em, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: so. Yes, you can do a lunar cycle. That's not something that has appealed to me so much, although I love the moon. I'm always aware of what cycle the moon is in. I always go out and look at the full moon because I just love it. And I'll put out some water in the moonlight to turn into moon water that I can pour on my altar and stuff like that. I have some incredible water that I just got. We had this torrential rainstorm, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: something like four and a half, five inches of rain, torrential rainstorm, and then it cleared off and the full moon rose. This was on January 6th. and so I have storm moon, water. I, I, this is water that fell from the sky during the storm that I gathered and then sat out in the moonlight overnight. And I'm saving that for special rituals. And yes, of course all imaginary, but it's still really cool, right? Mm-hmm. Yucca: Yeah. Right. It's not that if you gave the water to me without telling me that it would suddenly do something different when I used it than if I used any other water. But because you have that memory and that association with it, that. it. Something's triggered in you when you look at it and use it and feel it. Mark: right. I mean, I will be saving this for our Saan ritual. Our hall's ritual coming up in the beginning of November because part of what we do then is pour water onto the dry ground to call the rain back. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: That's a part of the symbolic action that we do during that ritual, and so I brought a big storm with me, lots of rain. Yucca: Come back. All of it, yeah. Oh, wonderful. Mark: So you can do a monthly practice, a, a lunar practice. Some people are really. Connected with and motivated by the moon. I, I don't have that as much, but that's great. You know, if you feel that sort of connection with the lunar cycle, then by all means orient your personal practice around that cycle. You can do something at the new Moon. You can do something at the full moon if you want to. You can do them at the quarters as well. That gives you a weekly practice every seven days. So I think what we're basically saying here is craft the practice that really works for who you are. Yucca: right. Mark: And that leads me, oh, go ahead. Yucca: Oh, please continue. Mark: Well, that leads me to talking about, well, what happens when you have this practice and you've been doing it for five years and it's starting to feel really like you're phoning it. And to me, since spirituality is about growth, it's not only about connection and sense of connectedness, it's about growth. And so I think there are things you can do with your practice to push the edge. And they can be everything from, I've had a solitary practice for a long time. I'm gonna invite somebody else into that. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Someone who I trust, someone who I'm connected with. I'm gonna show this part of my life to them and see if they'll join me in participating in these kinds of activities. That's a big risk, but it's also something. Presents an opportunity for relationship building that could be really powerful. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And I've got others, but Yucca. I'm interested in hearing what you have to say. Yucca: I don't remember . I, I was gonna say something. Oh, it's fine. That's the way conversations go, right? So I think, I mean the, the keeping. having a little bit of the, the new and the growth and the, the novelty, the that in. I think that's one of the ways that keeps us present too. Because when it's just the same, we don't notice as much. Mark: It is amazing how much we can drop into routine mode. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean, driving to work, if you do it every day, you can't remember the drive. Yucca: Yeah. Did you, did you stop at that stop sign? You must probably, did you even go through, you had to have gone through the stop sign, right? Cause it was back there. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. It is astounding how much our brains will skip over stuff that seems repetitive, which is why when we travel or take vacations or do creative things, we're really engaged and have very powerful memories because it's all new. Yucca: great. Mark: We remember the novelty. , if your practice is starting to feel routine and drab, it's time to take a step. It's it's time to do something new. Yucca: Right? And we're not saying get rid of the stuff that's working. Right, because if there's something, if you have something where you know, every single evening before you go to or whatever and it, it, it fills a function for you, then, then keep that up. But what is it? What can you add or what can you shift? What can you change a little bit that might. Work better for you and looking at what is it that you want too, because sometimes just making any change might not be the change that that is gonna help you in that moment. Mark: Right, right. And there. There are changes that you can make that are internal changes. There are changes that you can make that are sort of outward facing changes, like inviting someone else or a, a, a community of people into participating in your celebrations of the sabbaths or whatever it is. There are internal things that you can do too. Like, okay, I'm gonna take up a meditation practice. and that can be very hard for a lot of us. I have a D H D I'm terrible at meditating really bad at it. My mind is just all over the place and I understand that at some level that's a deep Buddhistic failing . But honestly, I just, I don't do very well with it. I do great with sitting out in nature and observing things. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: because it's like, oh, bird, oh, squirrel. Oh, you know, I'm, oh, waving trees in the wind. I'm, I'm constantly stimulated by different things that are drawing my attention, but if it comes down to just closing my eyes and trying to have an internal experience, I'm not very good at that. But a lot of people are, and it gives them a lot of feed. It gives them a lot of benefit. from a psychological and spiritual standpoint. So maybe that's the thing that you want to do. Maybe you need some kind of experience that's going to shake you up spiritually, and that could be everything from going skydiving to taking a hallucinogen, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: any, you know, some sort of intense experience that just makes you. Rethink things. Gives you a new perspective. Yucca: Right. And as we were saying before that if things start, if you feel like you've fallen off that wagon, it's okay. Right? You could just, it's not gone. The wagon's waiting, waiting for you. Right. You can get back up because you are the wagon. , we're just gonna play with the metaphors there. So, it, mm-hmm. Mark: Well, I was gonna say the metaphor that I usually use for people's like New Year's resolutions or. , you know, declarations, I'm never going to do this again, or I'm always going to do this again. These very black and white sort of declarations. It's sort of like the over culture's idea of virginity, right? It's like, okay, when it's gone, it's gone. It's gone forever. Well, that's. Bullshit. It's entirely invented. It has nothing to do with reality. The truth is that if you decide you're gonna stop smoking pot and you do that for six months and then you smoke pot, well, all you gotta do is not do it tomorrow. Yucca: Yeah. It's not like it's, it's all over Mark: Yeah. You, you, you haven't ruined anything. You've just backslid. there's probably a reason for that that you should interrogate, because it'll tell you more about yourself. But just, just do it again tomorrow. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: just keep going. You know? It's like, perfection is not the standard. Yucca: Mm-hmm. , but that, Mark: Oh, go Yucca: that you mentioned, that's, that's really important though, right? Looking at, well, why did it. , why did it happen today? Right. And is that something that I can prepare myself for in the future? Right? If, if a similar situation comes up in the future, what can I do instead? Or what can I do to not be in that position or, you know, that, that, that can all be incorporated in Yeah. Mark: or can I just forgive myself because my mom died? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and it was, it was pretty damned intense, and I just went back to the chemical crutch that was most convenient for me, but my mom's only gonna die once, so it's not like I'm creating excuses to keep doing this again and again. This was a really serious, intense experience for me, and, and I, I fell back on my habits. There's no shame there. Yucca: Mm. Mark: you know, there's, there's, there's no, there's no guilt trip and, you know, self-flagellation thing that's necessary there. There's just understanding. Okay, that's why I did that. Now tomorrow, I'm not gonna do that again. Yucca: Yeah. Or for the rest of the evening. Mark: Sure, Yucca: Right. You know, that's just, that's one that that could be a little bit tricky when it, whenever it's something like that, like, oh, well, I'll just do it for the rest of the day. , right? When you're trying to change dietary habits or substance habits, well, it's like, well, I had one bite of the thing. I might as well, you know, I, I had that, Mark: Today's blown. I Yucca: Yeah, I might as well just order the pizza and while I'm at it, get the lava cake and I'll have that Coke too. Yeah, . So this one just, that's, just be careful about that cuz you know, you. getting back on the horse. You can always get back on the horses. Get back as soon as you can. Mark: Right, Yucca: But yeah. Mark: And and I think in the broader sense, it bears saying that our path. Really doesn't endorse the idea of self-punishment as the means to growth, right? You know, the, the guilt, the shame, the self-flagellation, all that stuff, none of that is beneficial. That's just really a nasty model for how people's behavior modifies. Yucca: That's how you get obedience. That's not how you get growth. Mark: Right, Yucca: Right. And even then you only get obedience when you're looking. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: E, exactly. So, yeah, and we're not about obedience. We're we're about you being you. And that's it. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: it. Right? Yucca: well, and, and happy. And part of, you know, this larger context of a, you know, healthy and joyous society, part of this incredible planet that against all odds exists at this moment in time. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. So all that said, this sort of big picture stuff, yes, you can do those less frequent practices you can also shake up your existing practice with something that'll shake it up and, and that is, I mean, really that is down to you what. what will shake it up for you? Will going to a dance club and dancing with other people around is, is that the big hurdle to get over? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Or is it cooking a meal and inviting people to come in and all of them can experience your cooking? It's like, there, there are lots and lots of different ways that it can be. Yucca: or letting yourself do something that is just about you, right? That yes, you are going to get that massage or you are just gonna hang out and. Turn everything off and be by yourself for a couple of hours, or go on that hike or whatever it is that for you is the thing. Mark: right. Or broaching that subject with your partner about that thing that you want sexually that you've never talked about, right? Because it's about owning more of yourself, right? It's like, this is me. I'm okay with me, I'm gonna present me to the dearest person in my world and we'll see what happens. I just think that if your, if your orientation is towards growing and getting bigger and more complex and more interesting and more creative throughout the course of your life, then these things will occur to you. There are. of other possibilities that Yucca and I have not described in this podcast that would work perfectly for shaking up your practice and, you know, bringing that sense of adventure into your life a little more. But the point is to be willing to do it and it takes some gut. So maybe you have to sit for a while in your personal practice. Okay, here I am. I'm sitting with the candles and I'm thinking, well, what I would really like is this. And then there's this cascade in your mind of, oh, but I can't have that because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, some of those things may be true, but you can still assert what you want in the. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: right? You can still do unexpected, you know, go on a road trip. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: It's like, okay, you know, you've been married for 25 years and the kids are all grown and stuff, and it's like, you know what? I want a vacation by myself. And it's knowing insult to you. It's not anything about you, it's just I want to go on a road trip. Get on the road, go do that, and maybe it's only two, three days long. It doesn't have to be, you know, this huge production, but just getting yourself out and feeling like, wow, here I am behind the wheel and I can go anywhere I want. And it's not a problem for anybody else. I can just go there. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and when I'm tired of driving I can stop and I can find a motel or a campsite. That's a great feeling. It's an incredible feeling. It's very freeing and think there are a lot of people out there that could really do with that kind of experience. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Well, there's a lot more things to brainstorm, but I think that's a good place for us to pause and, and leave it to all of you to brainstorm what sort of things those might be for you and if that's what, where you're at with your practice, so, Mark: sure. For sure. More than anything else. I think, you know, the takeaway from this is a personal practice is a means to your personal growth. Yucca: mm-hmm. Mark: So have one, know, figure out, figure out something that feels like it feeds you in that way. And there's lots of materials out there. There's a bunch of stuff at atheopagan dot com about starting a practice. Ultimately it's down to you. It's down to what you want. And what we want for you is what is most engaging and actualizing and happiness, fomenting and all that. Cause that's how we roll. Yucca: Yep. And we'll be back next week with a holiday episode. Mark: Yes, a holiday episode. Woo-hoo. Hard to believe it's rolled around already, but Yucca: here we are. Mark: here we are. Alright, thank you so much, Yucca. Yucca: Thank you everybody.
Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E2 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, Yucca, Mark: and I'm the other one. Mark. And today we are talking about invented holidays and we're talking about adapting the Wheel of the year to really fit your needs and your climate and what's going on in your practice. Mark: Right, because one of the things that we do in Athe paganism, or generally in naturalistic paganism, is we. We focus on what's happening in our immediate surroundings naturally, rather than try to follow a calendar that's based on the climate of the uk, for example. Mm-hmm. , which is the more traditional wicked approach. What we do is say, okay, well what is happening in nature around us at the beginning of February? You know what? What creatures are around? What's happening in the soil, what's happening in the sky? What, what part of the life cycle is happening at this particular moment, and how can we best celebrate that? And that can be everything from the rituals that we do to what we actually name the holiday. Yucca: Right? And I would imagine for folks who live in a more urban environ, , they might bring in other things as well as, as the, their year is changing in different ways that isn't just about the soil or the animals, but what's happening within the city itself. So it's, you know, sure. Whatever your particular life is and what's really meaningful within your life. Mark: Right, right. For example, I could see if you live in a city the beginning of August holiday being something that was real would really focus around culture. It's hot out. Mm-hmm. , you may not want to be actually outside doing stuff cuz it's hot Yep. You may wanna be in museums or art galleries or music halls or. You know, or going to the ballet or the opera or the symphony or a punk club or whatever. Yucca: Or evening time activities. Mark: Yes. Yeah. Yes. All of that. That actually fits pretty well in with my concept of that holiday, which is sort of a celebration of both work and the achievements of humanity. So technology science, those kinds of things. But, we'll, we'll, we'll get to talking about that. The point is that if you're in a city, you know it. Some of the holidays may be more about the achievements of humanity rather than what's happening in nature. Mm-hmm. in your immediate area. Or Yucca: another way to approach that would be recognizing that the activities of humans I is an aspect of nature as Mark: well. Okay. That's a better way to put it. Yeah. Right. Yeah, for sure. Because we are natural creatures, right. We're. Quadra Pitt animals just like other Quadra Pitt animals on the planet. We just happen to have these large four brains and thumbs mm-hmm. and they lead us to do a lot of very creative things. Yucca: Yeah. And that's, you know, that's one of our special things about our species, so and so, and those things that we do. That too is is nature, right? Mark: Absolutely. So there ain't nothing That ain't Nature . Yep. Well, Lisa, that's what we Yucca: believe. That's, yep. I mean that's a, that's pretty foundational for us. So, now in addition to the Wheel of the Year, though, there sometimes are places in. Our seasons and our lives where it seems like, like a holiday or a celebration recognition. Seems very appropriate. And so that's one of the reasons we wanted to talk about this today is Mark, you have one coming up, which you've mentioned before. That is just such a delightful idea. ? Mark: Yes. Next Saturday, the third Saturday in January is when I celebrate Slog. S L O G G. All capitals. Mm-hmm. . It's not an acronym, it doesn't stand for anything. It's just I guess it's all capitals because it's this sort of repudiation of of what's happening in the, in the weather around us. By the, by the end of January it is, it's been cold and still quite dark and wet in most places. For a while. Mm-hmm. and all of the festivities of the December holidays are well behind us, and we're back at work or back at school, and it can just get to be kind of a drag. And so I invented this holiday slog because we're slogging through the dark and wet and so forth, . As a way of having a festive celebration at that time of the year. Mm-hmm. . And I mean, it, it, it just sort of struck me as a, as a sort of whimsical idea to start with. But I've been celebrating it now for five years and it's become a part of my seasonal routine. And slog is the, it's the winter, the deep winter, Demi sabba. So it's not quite all the way to the Sabbath at the beginning of February. But it's still deep winter and it's time to. Kind of come inside and do cozy things. Mm-hmm. . So it's a time when we wear festival, silly hats, , and we drink warm, cozy beverages like mold, wine or hot cider or even hot cocoa. Any of those things. Alcoholic or not. Mm-hmm. . Where your, your warmest, thickest pair of socks and Stay inside and play board games and just celebrate with other people. Mm-hmm. , have, have a little community and a little festivity. In a very relaxed, you know, wear your pajamas. It's . It's, it's the kind of thing where you shouldn't have to make any real effort in order to accomplish this. All you have to do is get together, pull on a good pair of socks, stick on a funny hat, and you know, heat yourself up some mold, wine at, at the stove, and you're there. You're, you're done. Yucca: What are those blankets that you can wear called, They're like onesies. Well, it's like a onesie, but it's like basically like a big sleeping bag, but you got arms like a Snuggie or so, anyways, whatever they're called. Oh, that must be, yeah, those, those sound perfect for slog, right? Just get that nice snuggie blanket on and Mark: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And And particularly the idea here is to, especially for people that are suffering from seasonal affect disorder, because this time right around now can be the very worst for people that become depressed seasonally. And that social interaction and that warm cozy feeling and sort of, you know, creating a warm nest away from. The cold of the outdoors. Mm-hmm. , becomes really important I think. And so, you know, drawing our our isolated friends out from their houses, people that, you know, are struggling with the season because, you know, a lot of people do mm-hmm. , Yucca: Especially the, the farther north you are. Yes. For those of us in the Northern Hemisphere, right? Yes. That it really, you know, we forget how far north some of our some of our cities are, but when you actually look at it in a globe, you go, wow, you're not getting much light, are you? Yeah, Mark: we're, we're pretty far up there. One of the things that I learned that really shocked me when I lived in Spain Yeah. Is that Madrid, and New York City are on the same parallel. It's wild. Yucca: Yeah, it Mark: is completely wild that those two cities are on the same parallel. Yeah. What that means is that Western Europe is very far north, way far north, equivalent to Newfoundland and on up into the Northwest Territories, you know, far, far, far up into Canada. There's a, there's a YouTuber that I love named Yana Yin. Mm-hmm. , who she lives in northern Sweden, in, in, you know, in adjacent to a forest. And she's an artist and does stuff, but she's also a YouTuber that, that does these wonderful seasonal. Celebrations of what her life is like at different times of the year. And I remember there's one which was in the deep of the winter and they finally had a day that was clear and it's just her sitting in the sun. And she said, you know the, when the moment when the winter sun first hits your face, it's like, it's like if you're really thirsty and you have that first sip of water, That's how powerful it is for folks that live that far north because they're so deprived. And this is after taking vitamin D tablets and Right. You know, you know, having full spectrum indoor lights and all that kind of stuff. And still there's nothing like the actual sun to Yeah. To stimulate that, that feeling in the body and. You know, long way of saying it, but Slog is about taking care of ourselves in that time. Mm-hmm. and doing it unapologetically, you know, and in a way that's a little silly. Mm-hmm. . So, it's, it's an opportunity for us to be playful and to kind of pull ourselves out of the muck of. Of the kind of climate conditions that can be happening at the third week in January. You can do the same thing in the Southern Hemisphere in the third week of July. It's, you know, exactly the same kind of principle. You can just plug it in at a different time of year. Yucca: Right. Well, or something else within your own environment. Right. That might, you know, for us, we don't have. That wetness, right? That what you're describing, the slog, it's for us, this is our cold. This certainly is our coldest month of the year. It's very bitter. But it doesn't have quite that same kind of slogging through. At least for me, I have this kind of, there's this quiet stillness to this part of the year still. Mm-hmm. right? Uhhuh. and I, but I suspect that a lot of that is simply because the climate. Are so different. Right? There's such sure, you know, we're so dry here. And I know you do get Dr. Quite dry very brittle in your summers. Yes. But your winters are, are quite different. Right. Yes. Mark: So there when, when we have a normal winter, we're, we're actually having a very wet winter this year. Mm-hmm. , we have a, a long series of these so-called atmospheric river storms. Mm-hmm. that are these giant conveyor belts of moisture from the tropics that whirl up into and up against the west coast of North America. . We've had six of them so far, and we expect four more over the next 10 days. So just wave after wave after wave of pelting, rain and then snow at the higher elevations. And this is more of what I remember from when I first moved here, God, 40 years ago. Longer. Mm-hmm. , Was that the winters January and February were consistently very, very wet. Mm-hmm. and we would have flooding every few years and it was just a really wet time. Yeah. And then we started having droughts and mm-hmm. it's been kind of on and off with drought ever. Yucca: When you describe your winters and you describe slog, the image that pops into my mind and the sound is, is having those, those big rubber boots on. Some people call 'em wellies. Yes. Squishing through the mud. You're just squish, squish through the mud until you get to the warm house and you can kick your boots off and put your nice blur fuzzy socks on. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. And, and even, even sort of, Walking through ankle deep water in a pair of wellies, right? Yeah. I mean, the wellies will keep the water out, you know, Yucca: but you gotta work twice as hard to get those feet up. Yeah, that's right. Mark: Yeah. And you, and by the time you get home, you're well ready to be in a place that's warm and isn't raining on you and. And where you can enjoy a hot drink and put on a funny hat. . Yeah, . Yucca: So we have a, a holiday that that my kiddos made up last year and they're very excited about doing it this year as well. So it's, it's probably gonna end up being a tradition for us. We'll see. But they made up snake. Snake day. Snake day. Yes. And where we live there are a lot of snakes and we do have rattlesnakes. So it's, and since they're so little, it is a big deal to really be very vigilant about that. Because you really don't want, you, you don't wanna be. In any situation, you don't wanna be bit by a rattlesnake. My mother was actually, she had this scar from it and, you know, apparently had, was not a very pleasant experience, but with a child that can actually be very dangerous or with an animal. So, but we also love the snakes and there's, and we have both snakes and, and non venomous snakes as well. We really only have the one kind of just rattle snakes that you have to watch out for. But it's something that is, that is exciting because when the snakes are back, It's summer, right? It's kind of, we talk about their, there's not really four seasons here. There's eight seasons or two seasons as I see it. Oh, . There's, there's the warm and then there's the cold. But when the, the snakes come back, it's the warm. But the, the, that day moves because the day that the snakes come back is. Is different each year. Um mm-hmm. , and I can tell you after decades there's the different species will come out at different times, right? You'll see the little fence lizards and things out weeks before the snakes are back. But when the snakes are back, you see one, there's 10, right? There's 20. They're all, I think they actually d together. And they, they come out interesting at the same. Even though they're interesting solitary animals usually, right? But when they, when they hibernate, they're not. So their idea was we draw pictures and make little clay snakes and make all of these things in preparation in the coming weeks. And we're looking for them and looking for them. And then the first day that we spot the snakes is when we bring out all the snake celebration, the pictures that they've been drawing over the weeks and put them up. And they've actually been bugging me about when do we get to. Prepping for snake day. I'm going, it's, it's January . Hold on for a while. We're not there. But that's really meaningful for, for our climate, but also for our particular family because somebody who lives in one of the cities doesn't have to deal with that. Right. Because they, they don't have, they've gotten rid of the snakes in the city, so they don't, you go out outside of it and Yeah, you'll find them, but not in downtown. You know, Albuquerque or Yeah. Or Pueblo or any of those types of places, you're just not gonna find them. Mark: Well, but, but this, this brings up some, an interesting thing because what you're talking about really is the seasonal indicator. that that's the beginning of the warm, right? Yeah. That, that's the true warm, yeah. Yeah. When, when the, when the snakes are confident enough that it's gonna stay warm, so they won't get marooned out in the, and have it suddenly freeze. and kill them. Yeah. That's, that's a turning point in the year for you. And there are other turning points in the year in various kinds of climates that would make total sense as holidays like I know that in Canada, First snow is often celebrated as as a thing, right? Mm-hmm. the very first snow, well, here it is, winter is here, you know, officially. It's, you know, because we don't get snow unless, So, unless it's winter, so this is the time in the tropics I could see holidays, like the first day of monsoon rain. Mm-hmm. , or the first day of the, the heat that follows in the dry season after the monsoon rains are gone. Or Yucca: the return of a particular bird. Right. Right. When that, when all of those birds are coming back in some areas that have The cherry blossoms. Right. And some of their more temporary areas of the, the spring, it's like, oh, yep, it's, it's spring, you know, when the, they start to bloom. Mark: Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a big deal in Japan. Yeah. And and in Washington DC . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Cuz they have the Japanese cherry trees. Yeah. So that is a way mm-hmm. , that we can augment the eight holidays of the wheel of the year with meaningful and and frankly practical celebrations that, that add to our celebration of living around the course of the year. Right. Yucca: Both of the examples that we gave each from our own environments, they really have that practical, yours is about, or at least part in, about the keeping the connection with the friends and, and, and looking out for your loved ones and neighbors and that, and getting through that time period. For us, there's a, a safety element of, okay, now we know we have to. more aware, like kids can't run off on their own. Like there's this, it's, there's the practical part, but we add that extra like kind of special meaning to it on top as well. Mm-hmm. , Mark: right? Yeah. So, I mean it doesn't all have to be practical. Some of it can just be celebration for the sake of it. Mm-hmm. Cuz you know, we're all about that. We think that's great. . But the, the I think the upshot here, the point here is that the cycle of your year doesn't all have to be about a, a calendar. Mm-hmm. , I mean, astronomy works on a calendar. We have a sun cycle, we have lunar cycles. Mm-hmm. , you know, those are predictable and we can put 'em on a piece of paper and then we can say, okay, day after tomorrow is when I'm celebrating the, the full moon. Mm-hmm. , that's great. And and it's a great thing to do, but it's not the only kind of holiday. Some of them are a movable feast, right? Mm-hmm. , some of them are. Or when it's just practical to, or, or when some indicator in nature in the world outside US says, okay it's, it's time to do this thing. Yucca: Yeah. Hmm. And then of course there's other ones like birthdays and death days and anniversaries and, and all of those. Mark: Yeah. Right. Yeah, because, and, and like, Yuri's night for example mm-hmm. , which is the anniversary of the first human going into space and orbiting the earth. Mm-hmm. , in April the April 12th, I think it is. I acknowledge it every year, but I never remember. Yucca: I'm pretty sure it's the 12th, maybe the 11th. I'm pretty sure it's 12th. 12th, so Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's the 12th and there's pie day, right? Mark: Pie three 14, and then there's TA day, which is 6.28, which is double pie day. Okay. Tau is is two pie. Yes. So Tu pi r is your circumference of mm-hmm. of a circle. Right. So, so Double pie Day is June 28th. Mm-hmm. . And you get two pies. So it's Yucca: okay. Mark: About Pirate day. Oh, go on. Yeah. September 19th, international talk, like a pirate day. We always celebrate it in our household . We have, we have P gear that we can put on and we can talk like we're From the Westlands in England, which actually has nothing to do with what Pirates talk like, but did have to do with what the actor who played Long John Silver in the original Hollywood production of Treasure Island sounded like. Mm-hmm. . And that's why everybody thinks Pirates talk that way now. . Yeah. So there you go. All right. Einstein's birthday, which happens also to be pie day 3.14. Mm-hmm. , celebrated by atheists A lot to celebrate science and critical thinking, and particularly a good one for atheopagan, I think because. Einstein rather, like Carl Sagan was of a philosophical mind. Mm-hmm. , he wasn't just a technician, he was also a thinker about, well, what does this all mean? ? Mm-hmm. , you know, where, where, you know, where did the universe come from and how does it work and what can we take away from that in terms of meaning for us as humans. And that is very much in line with our approach to the. Yeah. So why don't we talk a little bit about the, the formal wheel of the year the, the two equinoxes, two solstice, and then the four midpoints between those four stations. That was invented in the 1950s by Gerald Gardner and others. Mm-hmm. , many of these holidays have been celebrated traditionally for a very long time by various different cultures, but they haven't all been pulled together into a single map of eight holidays around the course of the year until the 1950s. Right. Which is one reason why in atheopagan we're comfortable drawing on it because it's not really cultural appropriation. It's something that was invented by a retired English civil servant in the 1950s. Mm-hmm. , that's, that's, that doesn't qualify as cultural appropriation. Yucca: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that there's, there's more nuance to that discussion though, in terms of the choices that he made and how much of what he did was appropriating. I, I think that there's, I think there's more to be said about that and explored. But that today it is a very widespread approach and there's a strong. There's, there's a lot of logic to it, which is what I think makes it so appealing today. Yes, because those dates are built are based on real concrete. Things. Right. We're talking about the solstice. Right. That, I mean, humans have been doing, we talked about this a couple weeks ago, more than a couple, a few weeks ago with the solstice. We've been doing this for, we know, thousands and thousands of years at least. Mark: Right? Right. Yeah. These, the, the solstice is an equinoxes are astronomical facts. They're not cultural artifacts. Yeah. Yucca: They're the dates that we celebrate them. Yes. That's a little shaky there. Yeah. Yes, Mark: exactly. The, you know, if, if you celebrate your winter solstice holiday on December 25th, that's cultural. Mm-hmm. , because it doesn't actually happen then. Right? It happens on the 20th or 21st and that moment. Is simply an astronomical fact. And facts are available to everyone. Yeah. Yucca: Well, and also when it appears on a cal, like the Equinox, for instance or the solstice, if it happens at two in the morning at utc, when it gets so calendars, unless it says otherwise, they're always gonna give it basically in. Universal time. So you might actually be off technically by a day or two for what it is in your time zone when the, you know, but, but when we're talking about those, how important is being? Exactly the day onto you or can you be off by 12 hours or off by 15? Like each person has to decide that for themselves. I've set it an alarm cuz I think it's fun, , but, oh well. We actually celebrate kind of as, as close to the date that it is convenient to us. Mark: Right. That's, that's when I do my rituals. Mm-hmm. , as close to the date as is practical. And that's usually a weekend or something like that. Mm-hmm. . But on the actual, at the actual moment, I mean, I like to take a moment and go, oh wow. Okay. It's, it's the equinox, the, yeah. We're right at the point. Right at the point where we're crossing the ecliptic right now, which is we Yucca: set an alarm and go Woo and ray, shake our hands in this, in the air and then go back to what we're doing. Mark: Yeah. Uhhuh. . That's great. Perfect. But another thing that you can do is you can build traditions around the actual time and then, Do other traditions in the convenient time. Mm-hmm. . So just like you're, you're talking about my imagined celebration that I would love to do at some point in one of these events that is, It happens deep into the night. So like at two o'clock in the morning, you know, the, the solstice rolls around. What I would like to do is to do midnight margaritas, like in the movie Practical Magic I just think that would be a perfect thing. I, I just think that that would be a really fun thing to share with adults, obviously. I mean, you wouldn't do that with kids, but Yucca: Sure you would. I mean, depending on the kid's age, you might wake them up for the two. , you know, they can have the sparkling water or whatever it is that they particularly like, Mark: right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, that's, so that's basically how we approach the Wheel of the year. Do you want to talk a little bit about. Each of the holidays or how we Yucca: Oh yeah. Well, I think instead of, instead of going into each of them, because we, we do that throughout the year. We'll, pretty soon we have the February holiday coming up. We'll be talking about that. But I think what might be interesting to do is talk about how, so you and I are both established in our, in our places pretty well. But if we were to move. Our wheel. Wheel of the year would probably change the way it looked, because yes, if we were to suddenly go to another climate, then some of the things, some of the themes are gonna stay the same, but different things are happening in the different climate. So it, how would you approach an, let's say you moved to Miami. Right next week you got the Dream Job offer and you decided that you were gonna pick up everything and move to Miami. Wow. How would you start building your Wheel of the Year? Mark: Well, I think I would do it as we've talked before with a phenology journal. You know, I, I think I would have to start by doing a bunch of data collection about what's going on around me, because, you know, the, the South of Florida, that's the subtropics. Mm-hmm. and it's laden with insects, none of which I would be familiar. Way, way more insects than I'm really interested in , interested in contending with, but there they are. The insects are there. Yucca: Oh, there's some pretty amazing ones though. Mark: There there are. It's true. Yeah, it's true. There's Yucca: And it doesn't necessarily have to have to be Miami, but I would, you know, I was just picking something that seemed very different from where you are. I think Mark: that's a great example. Yeah. So, you know, being aware of. I mean, the sunrises and sunsets would be at radically different times there than they are where I am. I'm way farther north. Mm-hmm. than that. So the first thing would be gathering information about what's going on in the natural world and how those things cycle. And it might take me, you know, a year of gathering information before I started to make adjustments in. In my holidays I know that I know that for someone that I know who lives in Tampa there is a moment in September-ish when the temperature finally becomes tolerable. because it's so humid and so hot in the summertime that you don't really do outdoor things very much. Mm-hmm. , because it's just so hot and oppressive and so the time to go and do outdoor things is not in the summertime as it is where I am now. Mm-hmm. , it's, it's later on in the year simply because the conditions are, are different. Hmm. You know, when, when you get to the deep of winter and it's 70 degrees mm-hmm. That's just a very different kind of condition to, to set up. So I don't know. I would think that some of the things that I would probably end up celebrating might be, I mean, I might take on the carnival kind of, celebrations, you know, like Mardi Gra and so forth in. You know, the early wet parts of the year are still at a time when you don't collapse from heat exhaustion. Mm-hmm. , right? So it just, I don't know, but I would have to find out what it was like when I was there and then do my celebrations accordingly. Yucca: Mm-hmm. . It's a very similar approach that I would take, I think is just the really observing. And it would probably take a take some time because you don't know that what year is a typical year or not what you're experiencing. I mean, you can communicate with people who have been there longer and read and do all of that, but I think that I would probably still. Recognize the, the holidays as they came along, but would know that each year I was building onto them. Right. I might be thinking about the summer solstice more in terms of what's going on with Earth's orbit and just kind of keeping an eye out and an ear out for what's happening in my new ecosystem. Mm-hmm. and then incorporating a little bit more each year, kind of like. Like when you move to the new place, it would be like your first few years are you getting to grow up in that spot, even if you're an adult already, you, you know, your first few years you're kind of figuring out life just as a human. You move somewhere, you have a few years to figure out life in that new Mark: place, right? Yeah. That's, that. That's very similar to how I would approach it. I mean, I have a very mature. Cycle of celebrations now because I've been living in the same place for a long time and have been, you know, accumulating information and traditions around that for a long time. Mm-hmm. , and it would take a while if I moved somewhere else to, for that, that level of development to happen again. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So. I guess where we're going with this for our listeners is first of all, to feel a lot of freedom around how you celebrate. You know, you do not have to celebrate the February holiday as in bulk, the time when we cast seeds out onto the snow. If you live in a place where there ain't no snow , Yucca: And or here, don't put any seed. Where I live. Do not put your seeds in the ground. They will die in the beginning of February. They won't work. Yeah. Mark: right? You do. Don't plant Yucca: until Mark: May. So . Yeah. So, you know, be aware of where you are and relate to that place. Initially I think. Well, okay. Nevermind. Let me, let me retract the beginning of that sentence, what Paganism has come to mean for many. Mm-hmm. is about a deep relationship with nature, right? I mean, the initial threads were things like free masonry and western ceremonial magic and, and a whole bunch of stuff that may not have had anything to do with that. But what modern paganism has come to mean for many of. Both naturalistic, paganism pagans and non naturalistic pagans is a deep relationship with reality, with, with the natural world. Mm-hmm. Earth based. In order to have that Yes, we're, we're earth's earth based. Yucca: Yeah. That's what the earth-based part means, right? Right. Yeah. Mark: So given. Once again, as we've talked about so many times, you know, the, the, the greatest pagan skill is simply to pay attention. Mm-hmm. , you know, to, to be connected with what's going on around you. And it's a, it's a hard skill to cultivate because in the routines of our life, we tend to just sort of skip over things and we may not notice that that tree now has leaves growing. it's been bare for months and, but now suddenly it has some leaves leafing out on it. Noticing when that happens, noticing that the buds were there before the leaves butted out. That's an important moment and it tells you something about what's happening with the season that's coming. So, feel latitude to adjust. Your wheel of the year to reflect what you're seeing around you, because ultimately what we're celebrating is life, right? Mm-hmm. , we're celebrating what's real, so we don't, we don't have to have a symbolic celebration about some other climate somewhere else that somebody experienced a long time ago and wrote down. Yucca: That's beautiful. We're accustomed, but that doesn't Yes. That's not necessarily your experience. Mark: Right? Right. Yeah. And we are, we are very accustomed in this culture because we are taught by the over culture to get our cult, to get our, our spiritual experiences prescribed by what's written down. in books, whether it's the Bible or the Talmud, or or you know, somebody's, you know, big book of witchcraft or whatever it is. And what we're seeing is you can get input from those kinds of themes, but ultimately the, the script of, of the nature path that's around you is written in nature. Right. And that's where you can, that's where you can find the deep wisdom about what living in your place is about. Mm-hmm. Yucca: Well, this was a good conversation. Thank you, mark. Mark: Yeah, yeah, you're welcome. And, and I hope that this, let me see this podcast will post. On the 16th and the following Saturday is slog . So if you find any appeal in the idea of suspending the dismal of winter, wherever you are for a while and having a celebration, feel free to take advantage of that holiday. And don't forget to wear a silly hat. Yucca: Right. And if you have rainbow toe socks, those sound great too. Mark: I need Yucca: some of those. They're, they're great. Then you can still pick things up with your toes. Fantastic. Ooh, . Alright, well we will see you all next week, so. Alright. Thanks everyone.
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Hey Angels, today I discuss a topic I was inspired to cover from one of the books I recently read called the Audacity to be queen by Gina Devee. This subject was just one of the amazing topics covered in her book, so I started doing reseach and I find this subject incredibly fascinating. I know you all will enjoy this too and find it to be thoght provoking and bring about an "ah ha moment for you".If you would like a personal phone call consult or video from me, check out Wisio!My Pinterest name is AshaaChristinaaIf you would like professional affordable therapy from the same place that I get therapy from go to https://betterhelp.com/ashaIf you have enjoyed this episode, please be sure to rate and review this podcast!If it's your first time listening to this podcast, you can hear more episodes here. I'm also on YouTube and Instagram!Thank you for your time, thank you for listening and thank you for your support!And remember to always stay Kind! xo AThe article I Reference is here : https://amiracleworkbook.com/2020/09/29/how-to-cultivate-healthy-masculine-and-feminine-energies-and-let-go-of-emotional-triggers/
Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com S3E39 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark, Yucca: and I'm the other one. Yucca. Mark: and today we have a very special episode. We're interviewing James Morgenstern, who is on the Atheopagan Society Council. And so, along with Yucca and myself and a bunch of other people. And so it's just an opportunity to get to know him and ask his ideas about where he sees the community going and how he came to be a part of this community and all that good kind of stuff. So, welcome James. James: Thanks for having me. Yucca: We're really happy to have you, so Well, why don't we get started with. you know how, how you found or came to agonism. James: So, it's kind of a, a, a long journey that started back in like the late eighties like 87, 88, somewhere around in there. And I, I was, I, I was an, an avid reader back then. And I remember coming across like a group of, at a garage sale, this collection of encyclopedias called Man Myth and Magic. And it was like everything supernatural in the cult from A to Z And I got made fun of a bit in grade school and called Encyclopedia Brown and stuff like that because I like, I, because I read encyclopedias. And so I came across these, bought 'em for like a quarter a book with my allowance and read them all. And that really sort of piqued my interest in, in the cult and whatnot. And there were there were articles in there about like, Paganism and, and Witchcraft and Wicca and, and what have you. And so I started seeking out books all of this under, you know, the cover of secrecy because I, you know, grew up in the Midwest, in central Illinois. And all of that stuff was a big no-no. So I. With, I had gone to you know, I grew up in a tiny little town, so we had gone some friends of mine and I had gone with one of their parents into this town, and there was this store in the mall that I went into, I think it was like, it might have been a b Dalton book Sellers, you know, one of those book sellers that's not around anymore. And I found a copy of Raymond Buckland's, Complete book of witchcraft. And I went through that whole thing. It was like a series of lessons. Anybody familiar with, you know, witchcraft from back in that area is familiar with the big blue book. But it went through the whole self initiation ritual thing that they had at the end of that. And that was sort of my start on that path. I started reading a lot of Scott Cunningham. He had, you know, a lot of good material for like solitary practitioners and and whatnot. And later on in my, you know, in my adult life I got involved with a this was shortly after I was married, I got involved with a group in Springfield, Illinois called the Edge Perception Collective. And we put on seasonal public rituals, you know, for the, for the community there in central Illinois. And from there I got involved with the Diana's Grove Mystery School and which was, those folks were fantastic. There's just some really good, you know, kind nice people. And the. It was interesting. They had like a 200 acre property in the Ozarks and, you know, it was beautiful. Had this, it had been a cattle ranch at one point, and so like the edges of it were forested and there was this big meadow in the center with like a seven circuit labyrinth mode into it. That was huge. And they had all these cabins that had built, had been built on the property by the Amish. And you know, they did week long intensives and, and weekend you know, seminars and things like that on all sorts of different topics. I took several like drumming classes there with lane Redmond and, and whatnot. And the you know, the whole time though, like, looking back, I, I realized that. With, in terms of like the belief in like DA and things like that. I was really sort of going through the motions on it. Like, I don't know that I ever actually really believed that, that there were these beings out there. I think a lot of it was me looking for an alternative to what I was in the middle of and sort of, you know, inundated by, and that was, you know, conservative Christianity you know, Midwestern Bible country, you know, kind of kind of folks. And so I, I, I sort of, I moved to St. Louis in like 2000 and really sort of drifted away from all of that and had this big. Spot in my life, you know? A lot of the stuff that I had done previously, even, you know, even being part of the, of this group and that that community all on my own, you know, was all solo stuff. Mark: Mm. James: And a lot of that, you know, took place primarily in, in, in my head. You know, it's the whole like, you know, you develop like a mind palace or whatever they call it these days where you've got this sort of sacred space in your own skull. And that some of that was coping mechanisms and things like that for, you know, mental health issues and, and whatnot. But but I had this big hole and, and, and that lasted a long time. And I moved to California in like 2013 or 2014. At the beginning of 2014. And I remember like, I don't remember the exact year it was, but I was online and on Facebook, and I don't remember if it was like a suggested group or if I was searching for, you know, some sort of online group to join. I've got a lot of, I've got friends out here, you know, on the west coast that are all part of this sort of like spooky dark, you know, like, you know, witchy, woodsy, you know, forest people type community musicians and artists and whatnot. And so, lots of pagan stuff being posted by them and, and you know, that whole aesthetic. So it may have been a recommended group but I found the Athe O Paganism one and I clicked on it and looked at the about page. Read the description and everything, and that seemed like that's, like, that was really kind of where I was at. Like, I wanted, I wanted all the pagan stuff, but I didn't want all of the praying to God's goddesses or offerings to forest, you know, fairies and, and, and things along those lines. so I joined the group and was just sort of a, a lurker for a while. And then I don't remember exactly how I met you, Mark. I think I, it was, you had posted something about where you lived or something along those lines, and I was like, Holy crap. Like, that's, that's, that's, you know, 20 minutes away, 30 minutes away or whatever. and I don't remember if I sent you a message or if it was in a comment or something. Like I don't, the details of all that are Mark: I think he sent me a message as I recall, and we decided to meet for coffee. James: Yeah. But that was fantastic. And then I read your book and like your whole story of how you came to all this. A lot of that resonated with me cuz I'd been involved with similar groups, you know, in the past, the whole church of all worlds. And you know, I wasn't involved with them at all, but I, I was well aware of them and, and things going on with them. And then, you know, I wanted to I wanted to take a more active role in the community because. I don't know. I feel like, I feel like everybody should want to take a more active role. You know, you gotta participate in community, you know, on some level. At least that's how I feel, you know, for myself. And so I, when a call went out for moderators on the group, you know, I, I stepped up to that and and then was a moderator on and off for a couple of years, I think. Yucca: A few. Yeah. James: yeah, recently, recently, you know, stepped down from that again. And then when the Atheopagan Society started coming together, you know, and, you know, we decided to put together an actual, like, council of people, you know, I, I. Felt the need to be a part of that, you know, on the, on the ground floor. Mark: Mm-hmm. James: don't know cuz I, it's, it's really given me a lot in terms of like, helping sort of fill that hole that I had in my life for so long with not having any sort of like, ritual, you know, or spiritual life, you know, it was, I dunno, it was like, I struggle with I struggle with a fair amount of mental health issues, you know, depression, things like that. And when having that, having a spiritual life and even in my own head now using words like that is, there's a little bit of dissonance because I don't believe in like a spirit world, but I, when I tend to use the word spirit or spiritual, I'm, it's more in the sense of essential. Mark: Mm-hmm. James: spirit being the essence of a thing. You know, and so a spiritual life for me is an essential life. It's a thing that, you know, it's something that's Yucca: mm. James: Um, and the, the, a paganism group online and just the, you know, approaching spirituality from that standpoint has, has helped me out a lot. And so I, I wanted to, to, to try to give back on some level as much as I'm able anyway. Mark: Well, that's great. Thank you for that. Yeah, it's, it's been great for me because you, you are local to get to know you and, you know, become friends. And now of course we have the Northern California Affinity group the Live Oak Circle, and we've been having in-person meetings with a little group of folks. And to me that's just been wonderful. I've, I've really enjoyed sharing rituals with, with a group like that. James: In person is definitely, at least for me personally, is far more rewarding than, you know, online. So if there's a certain, there's a certain distance that I feel, you know, with online interactions and they, they just doesn't feel as personal and meaningful to me. Other people get a lot out of it, you know, I know that we have like the the mixers and things like that, you know, on Saturdays and like on Thursdays or whatever online. And I know that there are a lot of people who get a lot out of those, and that's fantastic. You know, I think you should get, you should get that community interaction however you can get it. But yeah. Yucca: well, I really love that we've been able to start building both of those kinds of, of interactions right now as, as we're, we're growing and able to do in person gatherings. Both like we did earlier this spring with the retreat and then with local groups and then the mixers and the text communication, which is what mostly the Facebook discord is. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: So it's, it's lovely to see that diversity and people being able to kind of plug in, in the way that fits in in their life and, and their particular needs. James: Yeah. Yucca: and it seems like James, you've, you've been a big part of a lot of that kind of looking out for and caring for and participating in that online component. James: Yeah. Like, I feel, I feel very, and one of the reasons I wanted to be like help be a moderator and stuff for the, for the Facebook group was that I feel like I tend to get protective of, you know, the groups that I'm, that I'm part of. It's all, it's like chosen family kind of, kind of situation. And I felt like being a moderator helped, like, put me in a role where I could be more effective at doing that. Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: because there's a lot of folks that aren't able to sort of stand up for themselves and you only have so much, aside from just blocking people online you've only got so much that you can do in a group if you aren't a moderator. You know, you don't have the ability to, you know, to shield other people from, you know, abuses and things along those lines. And not that we've had a huge problem with. Folks like that in the, our fa I feel like out of all of the Facebook groups that I've, that I've been a part of and all of just the social media groups in general that I've been a part of, the Atheopagan group is definitely by far the most friendly and problem free group that I've, that I, especially with, you know, now we've got well over 4,000 members. Like, it, it, it shocks me on some level that there wasn't, that there wasn't a lot more moderation issues than there, than there was. We just don't get the trolls. I think a lot of that is, is due in part to like our screening process for people, you know, and and just the, you know, vigilance and the community themselves, like, you know, that even aren't moderators stepping up to, you know, Sort of take charge cuz it's, it's, I feel like it's all of our responsibilities to make sure that we've got a nice, you know, safe, accommodating, friendly community, you know, to be a part of. You know, and every, every group is gonna have issues, but I feel like our group is, is always working on those, you know, when something comes up, when someone brings something to our attention, something was problematic or something that we, that needs to be addressed that we're, that we, we work on it. I feel like that effort is an honest one and that, you know, and that's important. But but yeah, it's by far the, the best group I've been a part of. And I, and I think that speaks a lot for the people that are involved. Mark: I agree. Yeah, I mean, I've, I continue to be amazed by the quality of the community that's come together online, around aop, Paganism, and As you say, with more than 4,000 members, you would imagine that there would be more conflict. And it's not like there's group think because we have really interesting conversations about lots of different things and people have varying perspectives on a variety of different things. But there's a civility and a a fundamental assumption of good intention on the part of one another that I think is really rare for Facebook. I mean, I don't even go to my main Facebook feed anymore. I just hang out in the atheopagan. James: yeah, yeah. And it was, it was really great for me at the retreat to get to meet some of those folks in person. you know, cuz you see a name, you see a name and like an icon on online and I don't know, for me that's Yucca: A real animal person James: Yeah, Yucca: really right there in front of you. James: cuz like online there's a, like, I feel like there is sort of a certain degree of anonymity that's necessary because it can just be a dangerous place. So I don't fault people for not putting pictures of themselves up as like their Facebook photo or whatever. You know, I didn't do it for the longest time. Uh uh, now I don't really care. So it's whatever. But but it's nice being able to put a face to, you know, conversations that I've had with folks and, and things along those. Mark: So, I have kind of a two part question, I guess, for you, James. The first one is so what do you see your role as being on the Ethiopia Pagan Society Council? What, what do you see as, you know, what are your responsibilities there? What is, what do you see yourself as doing for the community there? And then the second part of the question is what about the future? What, what sorts of things do you see the society being able to do to foster this community or support it or train it or, you know, whatever. What, what's your vision there? James: I think in terms of my, my role, like, I feel like I, I try to represent the, the greater community as a whole. Mark: Mm. James: Take into consideration, like when we're making decisions and things like that, the needs of, of, of the community as it's been sort of represented to me by my interactions with people on Facebook, you know, in the Facebook group. And, and to a far, far lesser degree, the, the discord sort of, cuz I, I, I started the, that Discord server I don't, a couple years ago or whatever. And Discord is not my, it's not my thing. It's, you know, it's some people that's totally their jam and that's, and they prefer that over everything else and that's totally fine. It's just, it was never really my thing, but there was a call for it online and so I just, I had used it previously for like some gaming. And so I was like, well, you know, I'll start a server and we'll see how that happens and how that works. And now it, you know, it's got a, I think a couple hundred people on it. Mark: I think about 500 Yucca: Yeah, James: is it really? Mark: Yeah. Yucca: It's got some great stuff. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. James: I, yeah, like I said, it's, it is wasn't really my thing. I am not a tech savvy person, so, you know, there were got all these people that jumped on it, that were doing Discord stuff all the time and asking me as a, you know, as like the admin there, you know, Oh, can we do this? Can we do that? And it's like, I have no idea how to do those things. So and I don't have a whole lot of time to learn how to do those things. So like, I, that's a, yeah, that's a whole nother change. But in terms of like my role and what I, you know, what I seem like my responsibilities being like, I, I don't know. I. I think everybody, I think every group and, and it hasn't been a thing that I, that has been something that I feel like I've needed to worry about because our, our group and our organization has, it's worked a lot differently than a lot of other groups that I, that I'm aware of in the Pagan community and not so many that I've been a direct part of in, in terms of like decision making groups and whatnot. But I don't know. There was sort of this idea in my head at one point of like, being kind of a watchdog and making sure that things didn't start going down like a hierarchical you know, sort of problematic path. Often happens with those sort of council type groups in various PE communities. Like I said, I'd been a member of a group in the past. The, the edge of perception, which, you know, all we did was really put on public rituals. That's all we did. We weren't like a, we weren't sort of guiding a community necessarily. So all of our meetings dealt with what are we gonna do for the next, you know, for the solstice or whatever, and you know, who's gonna do what roles. And you know, how is, you know, how much did we spend on supplies for the last one? How much money do we have in the account for supplies for the next one? And you know, and that sort of thing, we were, we were a not for profit five. I think we had, you know, our 5 0 1 3 c, you know, thing or whatever. So we had to, you know, keep track of receipts and all that good stuff for taxes and but There weren't, so, there weren't really any issues in terms of like power struggles or anything along those lines, you know, people wanting to take control of things necessarily. At least none that I was aware of, but I definitely know that there are groups that are like that. You get like an individual who is, and that's one of the things like I, I feel I really sort of commend you for Mark, because you, that's, you have not being sort of the founder of, of this whole thing. You have made, I feel like you've made great strides to not put yourself in a position of. Power and or a position of authority or anything along those lines. You know, you've been pretty good about when people try to appeal to you as an authority on something and say, Well, Mark says this, or whatever. You're very much, I feel like you've done a pretty good job of, of the whole, like, you know, I'm just like, I'm just another member of the community like you, you know, just because my name's on a book or whatnot, that doesn't mean that, like what I say is, is law sort of thing. And I know that's been an issue. So there was an, at one point in my head there was this idea of like, kind of being a watchdog for the community if that sort of thing started to happen, to try to be a bull work against that. But that's, but it's never come up. So, that quickly faded into the background as something unnecessary. So I, so mainly I think I, I feel like I'm just there as support. Like I, like I said before, I, you know, I struggle with a lot of mental health issues and what have you. So my, my ability to do things is, is relatively limited. But I do, I, I, you know, I want to do whatever I'm capable of, you know, and take a more active role other than just seeing posts online and hearing about things and, you know, listening to the podcast and whatnot. And as far as going forward, I'd like to see a lot more opportunities like that provided for the entirety of the community. You know, it's a big community and I think a lot of those opportunities should be like on a, on local levels. You know, like you mentioned before, we've got our local live Oak Circle. Here in Northern California, which, you know, we've had like, what, like almost a dozen people Mark: Yeah. James: I think involved, you know, that have that at least, you know, I've seen, you know, active, we've got our own little discord server Mark: Mm. James: and whatnot to help coordinate stuff. And then you know, we've had Facebook members who have posted things about their local meetups, you know, one in Chicago that looked like had a fantastic turnout. And I like seeing it. It makes me happy to see things like that happening because I, community is something that's really important to me. And I think it's, I think a lot of the reason it's really important to me is, is because of how little direct access I have to it. You know, I'm, I'm sort of isolated out in the redwoods, you know, and So, and community interactions are, are, have become far more important to me. They're more meaningful to me because I have them, you know, so rarely. So that's an important step going forward, I think, is helping to foster those local communities Mark: Mmh. James: to build a greater, you know, broader, you know, general community. The, I thought that the Sun Tree retreat was a, was a fantastic success in terms of like turnout and whatnot. So I'd really love to see more events like that going forward. Like maybe regional regional ones and then, you know, a like a main sort of national one or whatever here in the States. And it would be fantastic to see. Because we've got members of the Facebook group from all over the world, you know? And we've got affinity groups for larger affinity groups, for like regional affinity groups for some of those areas. But it'd be great to see them putting together, you know, events and it, and I think a lot of people think if the, if like, Oh, we, if we're gonna do that, we're gonna need all of these things and we're gonna need this awesome space, and we're gonna need, you know, speakers or we're gonna need, It's like, you don't really, you just get together, get together and have a meal, you know, and make it a ritual, you know, be, be mindful of the various parts of the meal that you're, you know, as, as they're, as they're served or consumed or whatever. Or get together and, you know, if you're into drumming and stuff, you have a drum circle or sing some songs together or, you know, just do some, do something. As a community and it'll grow from that. You don't have to have like a fancy convention space or, you know, retreat center to go to or something along those lines. But I think building those communities is important because we, we do better together. You know, we, we move forward better, faster, more stronger together than we do, you know, as individuals. And some people, you know, social interaction is not a thing for them and they don't do well in groups and that's fine. You can totally do it by yourself. But, you know, I feel like as a, as a community though, moving forward, like these smaller local localized groups are really. I think that the next best step forward. Mark: Hmm. I think that's really well said about community and humanity as a social animal. You know, we, we get e even those of us that are very introverted will usually get something out of social interaction. They may not be able to take very much of it. But there's a, there's a sort of a, an energizing or a charge that comes with interacting with other people who see you and are authentic and open and kind and, you know, fostering that kind of a climate is, it's super important to me and it seems. That's what people are gravitating to in, in the online communities is like, wow, these people are nice and they're thoughtful and they're interesting and they, and they're rational and and they are open to the idea of secularizing the world in, you know, in ways that are moving and impactful. So, yeah. Yeah. That's very cool. I didn't realize that you had joined the council with the idea of being sort of a watchdog on, you know, on the power dynamics, but I'm, I'm glad to hear that you haven't felt that was necessary. James: Yeah. I mean that was sort of, it wasn't like a main reason, you know, the main reason was like, I, I wanted to be a part of it. I, you know, I wanted to be a part of, I wanted to give back, you know, cuz I had gotten quite a bit out of, you know, the online community and, and whatnot. And wanted to give back beyond just being a moderator on the Facebook group. And the, the whole like watchdog thing was sort of a secondary, a secondary thing, you know, one of those creeping things in the back of my head. And it was like, Oh, I've, like, I've seen groups like this come together before with really good intentions and then a cult of personality forms around one person. And and then it all falls apart. And I didn't wanna see that happen. You know, like I said, I, I feel, I feel kind of protective of our community. , which can have its own drawbacks because I, I, there are times when I'm feeling probably too protective and might see threats where there aren't any. And that's, you know, that's, that's my own shoot to deal with. The yeah, I think other things that we could do, like I, I, I think I probably mentioned previously about you know, we've got members of the community who probably are a little isolated and not as able and like some sort of like, outreach program or something along those lines, you know, to bring resources to those people. You know, I think this, this podcast has obviously been a great. Because you know, like you had mentioned to me previously about like the number of new members coming to the Facebook group because they heard the podcast which is fantastic, you know, but that's one of those things that like is of, it's available to everybody all over the world, you know, You know, you don't have to be on a specific social media platform or whatnot. This podcast is available on, you know, numerous different podcast platforms and everybody's got, and I think network, maybe possibly networking more with other similar like-minded groups. Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: You know, I think that might be a good step in the right direction. Cuz you know, In the end to get sort of philosophical, we're all in this together. Yucca: Yeah. James: that's not just like the a o paganism group online. And that's not just, you know, our, our local circles. It's, you know, everybody we're, and you know, we might not all completely agree on things all the time, but we, none of us get out of this alive. So we should all work together to make, to make the experiences as, as as pleasant as possible. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Yeah. James: and that, you know, and that in that involves a lot of work. And not, not necessarily like physical footwork type stuff, but like personal work, you know, for each of us. Things like Like dealing with issues of racism and ableism and things along those lines. You know, that's, that's stuff that has to be worked on, on a personal level. And you know, we all have a lot of, I think a lot of us the vast majority of us have a lot of internalized, you know, issues with those things. Things that have become normalized for us because it's just, they're, they just are things that have never been an issue. You know, it's a thing we've talked about in the Facebook group. Paganism in general for the, for a long time was a primarily white thing, Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: And and so I think a lot of people of color and whatnot really felt it was inaccessible to them, Mark: Yeah. Or that they were unwelcome. James: or that they were unwelcome. Exactly. Because there's still this huge trend, and that's why I'm I really. One of the things that I really like about Atheopagan and that that drew me to it, is that it's not based in a culture, a preexisting culture. It's not based around a preexisting set of traditions. You know, it encourages, you know, a DIY approach. You know, create your own rituals, create your own traditions, you know, start new ones. Don't, you know, like we, it's not the goal to recreate some lost civilization or culture, or to live in, you know, a a, a pretend past that never really existed. Cuz that's what most of these groups, you know, I feel like to some degree do. And it's not about escapism either, Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: Which is a thing that I found. I've gotten a lot of flack in the past for, for bringing the issue up in groups that I've been a part of that I feel like a lot of people were, you know, they'll be a part of a group that espouses like, you know, justice or something along those lines. I'm not gonna name any groups in particular. But they'll espouse values like justice. But then when issues of justice are brought up, people, you know, start going on the whole, like, why do you gotta make this political? It's like, uh, how is it not, How is that not like everything is political. If it involves people, it's political. So, You know, every aspect of our lives is affected by politics. You know, nobody lives in a. Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: from the rest of the world. So literally every aspect of our life is, has been affected or is constantly affected by politics. Whether it be the laws that we're living under or the regulations we have to abide by when doing things to our homes or you know, our yards, you know, down to like HOA organizations with how tall your grass can be and crap like that. Um, it's all politics, you know, And so, and I understand like people who get tired of hearing about hearing all the arguing Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: what have you, and I think that's primarily, it seems to be primarily an American issue, you know, a US issue. But you know, everybody knows what's going on in this country, you know, right now and has been for a while. So, you know, the whole world knows the sort of situation we're living in. So I think it's understandable that people are burnt out. . And, but most of those people who are like, Why do you gotta make it political, are the ones who aren't really all that negatively affected by politics. Mark: Right. They're James: tired of hearing people argue about it because it interrupts their peace and quiet and they come into these groups because they're trying to escape rather than, you know. But for me, like I said, a spiritual life is an essential life and as an essential part of life, it's politics is unavoidable Mark: Mm. James: cuz that's an essential part of life. You can't exist in the world without, with other people, without politics. So, you know, that's I think working on those issues on an individual level is important. And working on those issues as a community, you know, supporting each other. You know, I, I feel like our community has been really good in like the comment sections and stuff on Facebook of offering up resources when issues come up and someone says, Well, I don't know how to do that, or I don't, you know, or where do I go to find that information? There's usually always someone who's got a list of links or books to read or, you know, or, or YouTubers to follow, or, you know, something along those lines that are, you know, resources. And then it's incumbent upon us to take personal responsibility then at that point, and read those things, you know, or, you know, or, or, or look up those papers or, or what have you. And you know, it so yeah, I the whole escapism thing, that's Mark: Yeah, we've, we've talked about that here before. I mean, it's, it's tricky because you can use sort of fantastic language and, and framing to. Make your life a lot as a tool to make your life a lot more enchanted. Right. James: Oh yeah. Mark: But you need to keep in mind, you know, it's that ability to recognize the difference between metaphor and reality. You know James: And I, I'm a, I'm a big fan of like, the myth poetic, you know, as, as a tool, you know, for, like you said, re enchanting, you know, your life. But there's a, it be, it starts to become escapism when that becomes the, your preferred realm to exist in. Cuz it's not a real place. And you live in the real world and there's no getting around that. Mark: sure. When you start blaming fairies for things, James: Or Mark: It's a problem. James: right, or you know, like a thing you had mentioned, and I think you had mentioned it in, in your book, you know, with people like excusing behaviors, because you know, it's the will of the gods or, or whatnot. And the spiritual bypassing that takes place, you know, where people are like, Oh, well the reason this bad thing is happening in your life is because, you know, maybe you've angered some spirits or something along those lines. And, which is really just a fancy way of victim blaming at that point. Yucca: It's a way of not taking responsibility, James: yeah, exactly. And so that's, that was going back to like the first question. You know, that's, that's another thing that sort of drew me to Athe o Paganism, was that, that that wasn't a part of all this. There was no, there was no road. For that sort of approach to things, you know, personal responsibility and and, you know, taking steps in our own sort of growth and development, you know, are are built in. And that's that's very appealing to me and I think needed, you know, in. Mark: Yeah. One thing that I've really appreciated about many people in the Pagan community, I certainly wouldn't say all of them, but many people in the Pagan community, is that there is this kind of dedication to personal growth, you know, to, to doing the work to become the best people they can and. I just see that as essential. You know, it's like if, if the goal is excellence in how we interact with one another in the world that we create in our engagement with the rest of the natural world in all of that, then it, you know, it starts with the wrestling that's happening in your head and, you know, figuring that stuff out and getting as clear and as kind and as balanced as we can. And so it, so that was one of the things that drew me back towards Paganism. And after I got sick of it, you know, there were those people that were living in a fantasy world and were, you know, causing harm out of that. But then there were these other people who were just amazing. Humble, fantastic, incredible people. And I wanted those people . I, you know, I, I wanted to go back and get them. So that's, that's been part of what this has been about. James: yeah. I've had, and like, you know, I, I skipped over in my story about how I got to aio Paganism. I skipped over a lot of the stuff that I got involved in, looking for ways of like making meaning in the world. That were more solo like, I got into Chaos Magic, and I got into the, you know, I was involved in the Lima for, for a while, Mark: Mm-hmm. James: you know, joined some initiatory orders and, and what have you. And know, it was all, you know, brain hacking, trying to figure out how to make myself that better person, you know, that you just mentioned. And doing it on your own by yourself is often very difficult. And so I, I think having a community that's all also working towards that. And like you said, not everybody involved in those groups was good. But there were definitely some jewels, you know, that stood out. But for some of them, like the, the, the, the Leic community there was a lot of just. I, I pretty much left all of, I left the Lima because of a lot of the just really horrible, toxic stuff. And I've always been a proponent of the idea that whatever it is that you're championing, whatever cause that you're standing behind, whatever beliefs that you are espousing, look around at the other people who are going, Yes, that's what that I'm on, pa on. I'm right there with you. I'm on the same page as you are. You believe what I believe and I absolutely support you. And if those people are neo-Nazis, and if those people are, you know, just you know, white nationalists and racists and terrible people, then you need to, you need to rethink these ideas that you're championing. Cause if they're saying, Oh, no, no, I totally agree with you, I don't think that's a good thing. and, So, you know, I, I, I've had these conversations to get political. I've had these conversations with folks who, you know, espouse like conservative values and whatnot, and they're like, Yeah, but you know, I don't agree with those guys, but yeah, but they agree with you. Like you don't agree with those guys cuz you don't, because they're on, you're just sort of cherry picking, you know, the things of their ideology that they, that you don't agree with. And I don't know that you're actually looking at, at what they believe and what you believe with an unbiased, you know, viewpoint. And I think that your ideas and their ideas line up far more than you're willing to admit to. And because on some level you do agree with them because if they're agreeing with you, how is that not the same thing? You know, if you say XYZ and they're like, Yes, xyz, and then you say, Oh yeah, but I don't agree with their xyz, but it's it's the same xyz. Then, you know, I think that needs some reflection and some rethinking. And so, yeah, I don't know where I was going with that. I've got my mid-afternoon coffee, caffeine hitting my, hitting my head and it's sending me on spirals. Yeah. What were we saying? Yucca: We had been talking about the gyms in the community, and you'd said that you'd kind of skipped over some of the, the, James: yeah, Yucca: the various groups that you'd been involved in and stopped being involved in. James: yeah. Cuz I think when, when, for me it was like a matter of percentages, you know, if there's like three or four people in the community that are absolutely wonder. People and the, the overwhelming majority of the community is not, then that's, then you, you can't, you can't it, I personally can't stay in a community like that. I can't stay involved with a group like that. Like I, it, it's always terrible to have to sort of leave a group because you know you're gonna miss those people probably, especially if you developed any sort of personal relationship with them. And you can always stay, you know, connected with those people outside of that group. But being part of the group itself is just not an option any longer. Again, I think, I feel like you gotta look around at the people who are, who are standing behind you and chanting along with you and see what sort of flags they're waving and, you know, if those are flags that strike you as you know, bad things, then maybe you should think about. You know why it is that they're chanting along with you. And I, and it's mostly been like, you know, events that have taken place here in the US over the last, like six years or so that have really sort of brought that sort of idea to a head for me. You know, or also if you don't, the people who are on your side are championing ideas that actively seek to harm or impede the lives of people you care about, then maybe you should rethink those ideas also, because if you really care about those people, why would you want to promote the things that are going to hurt them, you know? And I feel like in our, to bring it back to, you know, our community, I feel like we are, I feel like we're, we can always do better, but I feel like we're doing a pretty good job. And that is, and that's not to sort of say, you know, to let us off the hook in any way, shape or form. The work is, the work is constant and ongoing and not quick. You know, there is no fast like flip a switch and suddenly you're not racist, you know, or you flip a switch and suddenly you're not ableist anymore. You know, those are, they're patterns of behavior that come about from living in a system that promotes all of those things and oftentimes rewards those things. So, you know, working out of those situations, those methods of thought and whatnot is a. It's a lot of deep work, but I feel like as a community we can support each other in that work. And that's what part of what I was saying about when conversations like that have come up on the Facebook group, you know, people offering up resources, you know, books, you know, books to read and things along those lines. I know we've got, there's like a book club like an atheopagan book club and I think that they've read some, some pretty good books, you know, in, in that regard on some of those issues. I definitely, I'm not a part of it cuz reading books for me is a, it's a whole thing that's gets too complicated to get into right now. But but I definitely encourage them to read more of those books that help work on those issues. You know, everybody likes to read, you know, the fun books. Things like gathering loss is a popular one. Or what's the other, the Mark: reading Sweet Grass. James: Yeah. Braiding, sweetgrass. Those books, those books come up a lot in conversations. and those are great. Yeah. Yeah, they're great. I, I'd like to, you know, I'd like to see more opportunities for for unlearning the sort of problematic tendencies that, that, you know, the overwhelming majority of us tend to have. Mark: Mm. James: cuz that makes the community more accessible to the folks, you know, like I mentioned before, that felt it, you know, this sort of spirituality inaccessible before, Mark: Mm-hmm. James: Yeah. And, and build your own tradit. You know, around that sort of thing cuz that can help reinforce all of that and Mark: You know, I, I need to put in a word about that. I, I wrote a blog post probably four or five months ago now. In which I agree for myself, I, I want to create new culture. But I can see how for people of color, they might want to draw culture from their ancestors forward. Um, and so, you know, when I talk about, when I talk about Ethiopia, Paganism being a modern thing that just got started in the early two thousands, and it's not rooted in any culture that really comes out of the fact that I just designed it for me and I'm this white guy you know, this sort of Mongol American white guy. And I think. I've, I've since done more thinking about that, and I think that it's really important for us to acknowledge that there's a place for drawing indigenous traditions, drawing traditions of African ancestry, you know, drawing those, those pieces forward into the ritual practices of people that come out of those, those ethnicities. James: I, I absolutely agree. I think on, on a personal level, I think, you know, for your own like personal ritual and spiritual life, I think drawing on, on, on your heritage is, is absolutely, although I don't like using that word, heritage I think drawing on that is Backgrounds. is, is, is important and can be really sort of empowering and enriching and whatnot. I think it, where the issue comes in is when the overwhelming majority of a group comes from a particular background Mark: Yeah. James: and they try to make those aspects of their background, the primary focus of the community's background. So like, you know, taking a recent holiday for example. So that's an Irish thing, you know, that's a Gaelic culture cultural thing. Yucca: Mm. Mark: Mm-hmm. James: so everybody's like, everybody talks about sow and it's like, I mean, it's not, it's not like a solar festival, you know, it's not one of the cross quarter you know, holidays that is tied to an astronomical. Or anything along those lines, like the solstice and equinoxes. So it is a very sort of culturally specific thing, and not everybody celebrates that. And so when everybody's almost sort of insisted be called that because Halloween is too much of a, I mean, it's, it's even got its own cultural sort of baggage, you know, in terms of like all Hall's Day being, you know, kind of a, a, a more Christian centric holiday and the whole, the whole co-opting of, of, you know, pagan holidays by Christianity idea and those sorts of things. But I think a lot of people, when, when the community, when the greater community refers to it as a specific cultural thing like sa, those people who did not come, did not grow up in that background. Feel isol, you know, separated and they feel like they're not able to take, they feel excluded. So I feel like as a greater, you know, sort of global community or whatever, coming up with new non culturally specific things is great. And then incorporate in your own personal rituals and whatnot, and even your own local group rituals, incorporate aspects of the, of, of your own background into that. And then your group can each, each person can bring their own cultural background into the mix. And you have this, you know, lovely bouquet of, of mixed flowers, you know, that everybody can enjoy. The but yeah, I think that when people lean into those sort of traditional ideas of the holidays, You know, of our, like, you know, that can be one of the things that isolates people who have traditionally been sort of excluded from these sort of circles, and it makes us less inclusive. You know, I personally celebrate sound because That's my background. You know, I'm 93% Scottish and Irish and with a smidge of, you know, other, you know, I'm a, I'm a American mut, you know, with a blend of, of European backgrounds. And but I wasn't raised in any of those cultures, you know, that's a, so that's a thing. One of my. I don't wanna say pet peeves cuz that's not what it is. One of my issues that I struggle with a lot of times is I don't believe that for the most part Americans have in general, white America doesn't have a recognizable, consistent culture or cultural background to draw from. Which I think is one of the reasons why so many folks look to, like Ancient Ireland and Ancient Scotland or ancient Germany and you know, or Scandinavia, they look to Asat true, you know, because of their roots and their heritage and they, or they look to, you know, like the Celtic sort of stuff because of their, you know, their ancestry. It's like, that's great, but you likely weren't raised with any of those traditions, assuming those traditions are real at all. And so, In a way that's sort of a, it's a hot button topic and I'll probably get flack for it and people will talk about me. But I feel like in a way that's sort of still a matter of cultural appropriation cuz you weren't raised in that culture and there are people who legitimately went through terrible things because of their connection to that culture. They were prohibited from practicing just like here in the United States with the, with, you know, indigenous peoples being legally prohibited from pr, from practicing, you know, you know, uh, their, their ancestral traditions and what whatnot to step up. Having not gone through any of that and just adopt those things and say, Well that's, you know, that's my, that's, you know, my heritage. It's like you're, I. I guess blood wise down the road, always, you've got that connection to people who participated in that. But you, you never did. You're, you know, that's not part of your, your culture for the overwhelming, not for everybody. Obviously there are exceptions. People who are like first generation Americans and whatnot. They may have relatives who who carried some of some older traditions and stuff forward. But this idea of participating in these like ancient traditions, like, I mean, it's, Yucca: I think it doesn't necessarily just have to be first generation either. I mean, there, you know, there's a, James: but those traditions have to have been carried forward. Like, I feel like you need to have been raised in the culture to, to really, because otherwise you're, you are participating in a thing without, without any sort of, you know, you're participating in a thing that other people were punished for without. The threat of punishment, you know, and without having gone through those Yucca: I, think it's really very specific to different ones. I mean that some, some times when those ancestors were forced to stop, Doing tho having those traditions. You know, my, my father's first language, he was not allowed to speak that outside of the home. And his, you know, his, his mother wasn't allowed to speak it. So I wasn't, I didn't get that language from him. Right. But, but there's still a connection that I have to that culture, right? Or, you know, and, and so for instance, my, my child is relearning the language even though there's a generational gap between, you know, what she was, how she's been raised, the culture that she was raised in, and, and wanting to like to rebrace, right, to reclaim and rekindle some of that. James: And I think as long as, as, as those things are being passed down with the knowledge of, of the struggle that people went through regarding those things, like how the, how the, you know, and that's, you know, the reason that you're doing it. But I think a lot of that is disregarded when people just sort of pick up a book on Celtic paganism or something along those lines, and they think that they're participating in these like ancient Celtic rituals and whatnot, which is Yucca: My personal pet peeve around that is when it gets all lumped into one culture, it's like, wait, but, but we're a lot of different cultures, you know? James: I've been involved in Drewry and things like that, and there's this idea of like this Dr. Reconstructionism and whatnot, which I think is. The fact of the matter is, is we don't know what any of the, there was nothing written down and we don't know what was practiced. So these like ancient rights or ancient rituals, they're not ancient. They're all new modern inventions. And there's that zero evidence that, you know, and there's a lot of hearsay and people are like, Well, no, this was passed down. Word of mouth. It's like, yeah. And we've all played telephone, we've all played that game. And there's a good chance that the way that you're doing things is absolutely nothing like what people did then. You know, and you've got the influence of Christianity and things like that. And to think that, to think that, like, I don't know. I think the assumption that, like the monks that wrote down a lot of this stuff, when they were encountering these new cultures, you know, as they were, were coming into the areas that they weren. Repainting and reinterpreting and just straight up lying about things. I think I, I don't think that's an honest approach to, to what that is. So, Mark: Well, and, and James, this also goes to the lionization of the ancient, right? I mean, there's that whole idea that because something is old, that it's got a deep validity to it. And that's, that's one that I just. Honestly, I don't go with, I mean, to me, cultures are valid just because they're valid and it doesn't matter whether they started recently or, and then, then there are cultures that aren't so valid, like Joseph Smith's arrangement that has now taken off and has many followers all over the world that you know, the values of, which I find really problematic. But just because something is new doesn't make it invalid. And just because something is old doesn't make it valid. But particularly for people where there's been genocidal effort to extinguish the culture, I think it is really important to be able to say to someone who's, you know, grandfather and father were, you know, grandparents and, and parents were not allowed to speak their native language, that they are still entitled to relearn that language and restart those cultural traditions again. James: Sure, I think. But I think that a lot, and I think a lot of it is for me personally, that's it. It's all continued upon intent. Mark: Mm-hmm. James: if you're, if I think if you're going to do that, then you need to be learning about the struggles that they went through. You need to be informing yourself about the reasons why this is an issue, you know? It's like, you know, the, it's, for me, it's like the, the whole like, you know, When it comes to, like in, in indigenous folks, you get the person who does their 23andme DNA test and they get the thing that says, Oh, you're 0.05% Native American. And they're like, Oh, cool. Well, I'm just gonna start practicing Cherokee, you know, traditions or, or whatnot cuz you know, well I'm part, you know, I'm part Native American and what, and, and not learning why that's a, why that's a problem. Mark: Yeah. James: It's like if you're, I, you know, because in all likelihood, you, you, you really, the only connection you have is a genetic, is a genetic connection to those, you know, to those folks because you've not, you know, I don't know. It's a, it's a, it's a complicated. It's definitely not cut and dry. There are definitely, you know, exceptions to the rule and, and, and all of that good stuff. There's, I come from a, you know, a line of people who are very, very far removed from any of that. I, the, the research that I've done on my own family, you know, I got as far back as like the 15 hundreds to some, you know, Sept of SCOs who, you know, the, the, the McCulloughs or, or whatnot. And they were like a, they didn't have their own tartan, which was a, which was a pretty modern invention. They didn't have their own, you know, sort of clan, steel and motto or insignia or anything. There were like a vassal clan of some other larger clan, but. I wasn't raised with any of that. My grandparents weren't raised with any of that. My great grandparents weren't raised with any of that. You know, if anything, there's more Appalachian you know, traditions and culture, which is a mishmash of, of, you know, a number of things. Because the farther you get from the source, the more diluted those things sort of become, the more integrated with other, you know, cultures and, and, and traditions and whatnot. Those things become and they become their own thing, you know? So like, I feel like for me, like I've, I've, I've tried to educate myself on the struggles of those people from my background who were barred from like my Irish ancestors who were barred from speaking Irish, you know, by the English in my. I try to educate myself about that. And I try not to just take it for granted that I'm just allowed because my, you know, my grandmother's last name was Bailey, you know, and I think that there's the overwhelming majority of people that I have encountered in the Pagan community. That's really the sort of approach. There's this romanticized like idea of like ancient Celtic Ireland, you know, that people pursue. And and it goes, it goes back to the whole escapism thing for me. And you know, I think a lot of people are what draws a lot of people to modern paganism. And the new age movement is a dissatisfaction with the way the world is right now and a lack of sort of, Lack of meaningful internal life you know, to to help give them a sense of comfort and whatnot in, you know, the, the sort of times that we're having. And I think that there's that appeal to, it's the reason we read, you know, that's the reason we read fantasy books and things like that, you know, So for a brief time we can live in a world that is not this one. Mark: Yeah, but this one is so amazing. Yucca: Yeah. James: it really is. You open your eyes and you look at the world around you and you see like really look and see the various processes taking place on the. Smaller levels, you can just keep going. You know, like, Oh, well why does that happen? And there's a whole process involved and it's like, and then you can take a piece of that process and say, Well, why does that happen? And there's this whole other process involved, and it's this like fractal rabbit hole that, you know, winds up down in some quantum, you know, wormhole thing Mark: Some probabilistic. Weird. James: Yeah. Mark: Yeah, James: until we're just speculating, because we really don't know, because we are physically incapable of seeing any more detail from that for now. And you can do the same to the greater scale, you know, because the immensity of this universe and reality in general, as you know, is astounding and incredibly humbling. For me to contemplate. I've spent many a night lying on my back as a kid. I had, I built a skateboard ramp for myself, and there would be times when I would lay down on the deck of that skateboard ramp and living in rural America, there wasn't a lot of street lights and things like that to obscure my view of the sky. And spent a lot of time laying, just looking up at the stars in the moon and whatnot, and always feeling that sensation of sort of being held to the earth. Mark: Hmm. James: Like at any moment I could fall off of it Yucca: Hmm mm. James: into the, you know, the sky, you know, up into the, that vastness, because what is up Mark: Mm-hmm. James: that's arbitrary you know, it's in relation to where, you know, to where the ground is. That's up. Mark: Yeah. James: But in the, in the schema things, there is no up. There's no down. It just, we have to put these sort of descriptions on things to help us make sense because of how limited we are in, in our, in our perception. But I think going back to yet another thing that drew me to a, the o paganism is that whole idea of like, that's, I'm, I'm part of all of that. That's, that, that craziness, that just overwhelming levels of complexity. And like we talked you know, yesterday, mark, about the human brain and how, how little we really know about how it operates. This chunk of fat and water and whatnot that sits inside, you know, this bone on the top of our head or our bodies. Excuse me. Throat thing happening. The, the overwhelming, like, I don't know the awe that sets in Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Mm-hmm. James: the, you just, there are times when it just takes my breath away. And it's the appreciation of that and knowing that every other person who's part of the, you know, not just part of our community, but every other person in the entire world is also part of that. Mark: Mm-hmm. James: And if there's anything that connects us, that's, it's that, you know, we're all part of this sort of greater mechanism. I don't know that like, I guess you could call it an organism if you wanted. Yucca: Mm-hmm. James: You know, I guess it all depends on per. , but we're all tiny, tiny, tiny little pieces of this huge thing that operates in a relatively specific manner. Mark: Mm. James: even though it seems like, you know, at times all of the stuff is so random and whatnot. That's sort of the point, is that that's how it works, is that there's no sort of predetermined path. No one has laid it all out, you know, and mapped everything out. Like what's the point of that? You know? Excuse me, my throat. So Yucca: Yeah. Well, I'll, Yeah. James: having me on. Yucca: Yeah. So thank you James. This has been, This has been amazing. Mark: It has, it's the, I mean, we've wandered into all these really essential subject matters about, about our path and about our community, and it's just been a really great conversation. Thank you. James: Yeah, thank you for, for tolerating my, my ramblings. Yucca: Well, thank you for sharing them with us. We really appreciate it. Oh, James: my pleasure. Mark: And we'll see you all next week. Everybody. Have a great week. .
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