Podcast appearances and mentions of James Valentine

James Valentine passed away in April, voluntarily. The beloved ABC radio presenter and musician had been diagnosed with terminal cancer, and chose voluntary assisted dying so he could have a say over how he lived his last moments. Valentine cared about moments. In a moving eulogy at Valentine’s public memorial, his son, Roy Valentine, said that his dad always asked the question: “How do you want to live?” James Valentine lived with joy, curiosity, and openness, and wanted everyone else to be able to do the same. Today, James Valentine is being officially honoured as a Member of the Order of Australia. In this episode of The Briefing, Natarsha Belling is joined by Roy Valentine to talk about his father’s legacy. Follow The Briefing: TikTok: @thebriefingpod Instagram: @thebriefingpodcast YouTube: @TheBriefingPodcast See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's Only Fwends! Every fortnight, between interviews, we thwee Fwends have a little natter. In this episode we discuss the true definition of ASMR, before getting into funerals, and then winding up thoughtfully reminiscing about beloved departed Australian broadcaster, James Valentine. It's an absolutely chaotic mixed bag, and we think James would be proud. CONTACTVoicemail - speakpipe.com/fwendspodEmail - fwendspod@gmail.comMail - PO Box 24144, Melbourne, VIC 3001, AustraliaFWENDS WITH BENEFITSGet ad free listening and access to the Simply Marvellous archive! (Simply Marvellous both the perfect adjective and also actually just the name of the old show). Plus other fun stuff!Apple: Subscribe above!Not Apple: https://fwends.supercast.comRATE AND REVIEWIf you'd be so kind, we'd absolutely love you to leave a charming rating and review? In whatever podcast app you're in right now...a little 5 stars will do?FOLLOW FWENDS ON INSTAGRAMGeorgia MooneyKyran NicholsonRhys NicholsonComedy RepublicProduced by Comedy Republic. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Photo: U.S. Rep. Mary Peltola addresses a crowd during a meet and greet in Petersburg on May 26, 2026. Peltola is running for U.S. Senate. (Taylor Heckart/KFSK) Former U.S. Rep. Mary Peltola (D-AK) visited Petersburg, Alaska Tuesday in her campaign to unseat incumbent U.S. Sen. Dan Sullivan (R-AK). Peltola addressed a group of more than fifty people at Petersburg's Alaska Native Brotherhood John Hanson Sr. Hall as part of a one-hour meet and greet. She encouraged residents to get out and vote this year. “So many of the things that we are working on in Alaska just become political footballs for people in the lower 48 or some administration, and we’re better than that. We’re bigger than that. We are going to put our foot down and not be used as a political football.” During her speech, Peltola emphasized supporting elders, children, and addressing affordability. Peltola's campaign told KFSK she was not available for questions from local media during her visit. Local assembly member James Valentine says Peltola made time to talk to local leaders about a wide range of issues before the event. Valentine says he spoke with her about outmigration in the region. “Me, as a younger assembly member and a young, I guess, community leader, I asked her, and just more of stating, just my concerns about the younger generation retention in Southeast Alaska, and then she’s from Western Alaska, and I know she feels the same way.” That same day, Peltola also hosted a meet and greet in Wrangell, Alaska on a neighboring island. This week, she visited other Southeast Alaska communities including Ketchikan and Sitka – and she will be in Haines on Friday. The Senate primary takes place in August, and the general election is in November. This story was provided by KFSK's Taylor Heckart. An aerial view of the Yukon River as it breaks up downstream of Beaver, Alaska on May 10, 2026. (Courtesy U.S. National Weather Service Alaska) The thick winter ice of the Yukon River has washed out to the Bering Sea, signaling the end of breakup season on the Yukon Delta. Last week, communities along the Yukon River experienced ice jam related flooding. For some, it was among the most severe breakup impacts in recent memory. The communities of Holy Cross and Pilot Station saw water enter homes and in some cases, cover airport runways, but as of Tuesday evening, significant ice jams close to the mouth of the Yukon gave way and the water began to recede. Mike Ottenweller is a meteorologist with the Alaska Pacific River Forecast Center. He has been part of the River Watch team doing daily aerial surveys, tracking the Yukon River's breakup. “We watched the very last little bit of the ice run that was at one point 40 miles long, and maybe even if you go back a couple weeks, 90 miles long at some points, but we watched that clear out to the coastal areas and past those last villages and making its way out to the Bering Sea.” Overall, he says this year's Yukon River breakup trended toward dynamic and was about five days later than average, which was expected coming out of this year's frigid winter. Laura Havameister with the State Department of Homeland Security and Emergency Management says though the flooding is receding, the recovery process is still ongoing. She points to Alukanuk, which experienced flooding on some roadways. “We could not make it into town, unfortunately, just because of that flooding. So we’re working with the city manager and with the SAR team to really understand those, those inundation areas.” From shuttling the team from the airstrip to providing on-the-ground updates, Havameister with the state says the community aspect of the operation is a powerful one. The team concluded their aerial surveys for the 2026 Yukon River breakup on Tuesday. This story was provided by KYUK's Samantha Watson. Get National Native News delivered to your inbox daily. Sign up for our daily newsletter today. Download our NV1 Android or iOs App for breaking news alerts. Check out today’s Native America Calling episode Friday, May 29, 2026 — The Menu: Dawn Butterfly Café, camas restoration, and the Indigenous food pyramid

This week, we're talking about the joy of team sports, Lena Dunham's new book and why the Michael Jackson movie feels NQR to us. There's also the new 'maxxing' trend that is so dumb we can't quite believe it, chest hair is hot again, the sad and brave death of James Valentine, and Mel delivers Monty's eulogy aka 'loveogy'. Enjoy. Fancy supporting us on Patreon? Find out more here. Follow us and get in touch on Instagram here. Follow us on Facebook here. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

So who boycotted and who just didn’t get invited? Yes, we’re rounding out the Met Gala gossip with a rundown of protests (SJP?), basic-b*tch heartbreak (Hugh & Sutton) and bathroom selfies (alllll the hot ones). VOTE FOR US: Help Out Loud win the People’s Choice category of the Australian Audio Awards. Find the link to vote RIGHT HERE. Plus, who actually won in the finally-finished court battle of Lively vs Baldoni vs Lively? And what James Valentine’s Year Of Living Gratefully taught us about living (and dying) well. And, Cameron Diaz is a mum again at 53 and no-one is calling it a 'miracle!' Have we turned a page on older parents’ double standards? Don’t forget that if you SUBSCRIBE to Mamamia, you get access to extra Out Loud segments, every single one of our podcasts, and every MM story ever written. https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe/ SUBSCRIBE here: Support independent women's media What To Listen To Next: Listen to our latest episode: Fake Nips & Wandering Hands: Mia’s Met Gala Verdict Listen: We Do Not Agree On The Taxi Cab Theory Listen: She Opened The Fridge. What She Found Ended Her Friendship. Listen: The Real Reason You Resent Your Friends Listen: The One Minute Of Live TV That Undid A Noughties Icon Listen: Scurrilous Gossip: An Engagement, An Affair & A Royal F-You Listen: The Family Ritual That Has Us Divided Listen: The Most Honest Dating Questionnaire We've Ever Seen Connect your subscription to Apple Podcasts Discover more Mamamia Podcasts here including the very latest episode of Parenting Out Loud, the parenting podcast for people who don't listen to... parenting podcasts. SUBSCRIBE here: Support independent women's media You can now watch our show in full length video on the Apple Podcast app - make sure your phone is up to date and we can't wait for you to see Mamamia Out Loud on Apple What to read: Blake Lively just got the last laugh at the Met Gala. Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni have just settled their lawsuit. The timing says everything. Cameron Diaz quit Hollywood for 10 years. When she returned, she noticed one major difference. 'As a fashion editor, I urgently need to discuss these 9 Met Gala looks in excruciating detail.' THE END BITS: Check out our merch at MamamiaOutLoud.com GET IN TOUCH: Feedback? We’re listening. Send us an email at outloud@mamamia.com.au Share your story, feedback, or dilemma! Send us a voice message. Join our Facebook group Mamamia Outlouders to talk about the show. Follow us on Instagram @mamamiaoutloud and on Tiktok @mamamiaoutloud Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land on which we have recorded this podcast. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -AUTO GENERATED TRANSCRIPT: Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, sixth of May. I'm Holly Wainwright and the first thing I'm going to do, the first order of business, very simple out louder is if you love your show, please vote for us in the upcoming Australian Audio Awards as a People's Choice category. It's really straightforward. We're going to put a link in the show notes, We're probably going to put it on social We're going to put it everywhere. We would love your support to help us get there. That is the end of my manifesto for the day. Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I just would like to say as a lazy girl that there are all these things to fill out. Speaker 3: You only have to fill us out. Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't have to do everything is just tick Mama Mia out Loud. Speaker 3: So important for the lazy girls out there, and as as a bossy girl, I just concur with Holly. I know you can make that ask of people, and I think that's a great step towards greet our self assertive. Speaker 1: I'm growing, I'm growing, Amelia Growing. I'm Amelia Lester and I'm Claire Stephen and here's what's made our agenda for today. So now that it's all over and many damning text messages scatter the ruins of what was the biggest celebrity story for a couple of years, Just who did win in the whole? Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni court case drama. Speaker 3: Plus Cameron Diaz is a mother again at fifty three, and Holly has some thoughts. Speaker 2: And veteran broadcaster James Valentine filmed the last year of his life for the ABC, and between a living wake and his openness around voluntary assisted dying, he's opened a conversation around what it means to die a good death. Speaker 1: But first, Amelia Lester, the Mecgala. Speaker 3: Did it feel different this year? A lot of people said that it did. Amy Odell, a fashion writer, wrote in her background newsletter that the Metgala was all money, no soul, and she wasn't alone in this criticism. Basically, people are saying that because Jeff Bezos and his wife Lauren Sanchez Bezos sponsored the event, it just started to feel a little craven, a little gross, and less fun than it used to be. So there were a lot of protests in New York. In the lead up to the event, they were all centered around Amazon's labor practices, its environmental damage. And then there are those who say, no, that's not true. The mech color's always been about rich people giving their money towards a good cause, which is the Metropolitan Museum's Costume Institute. And look, they did raise a lot of money on Monday night. The Bezos has bought the event for about ten million dollars, but then the event itself raised about forty one million. This is US dollars, which is a lot for this event. It's apparently kind of record breaking. So are we just complaining about nothing, Holly? Do you feel like celebrities stayed away? Did they agree that this was a sort of off event this year? Speaker 1: So I'm going to give you a list of the celebrities who people say boycotted, because none of the people so far who everyone is saying has boycott had actually verbalized that they were boycott. Speaker 3: Well, we are boycotted, which we just had to take a stand because. Speaker 1: I do feel a little bit like what soul when you said it's all money those salt like, I do feel a bit that I don't think this is the first year. It has been pointed out in the culture, particularly since trump Ism and all those things, that this feels very hunger games. Yes, yes, and I know although there's a more direct link here, you know, with the Bezos is buying it. I do feel like Jeff sort of bought it for Lauren as a gift, which is a nice gift. Nice, but it feels more avert. So anyway, let's look at this because when I was watching it on Tuesday and then I did a subscriber episode with me as straight afterwards, I was like, well, all the celebrities are there, like Beyonce's there. All the famous people I was expecting to be there were there. Speaker 2: Well, actually a lot of famous feom we didn't expect to be there were there. Speaker 1: Yeah. And then it was pointed out to me who was not Billie Eilish. Now that tracks because she doesn't like billionaires, and she remembers she gave a speech a while ago where she said, you lot give more of your money away. So I don't think she would have been either welcome or willing to go, because Jeff might have worried that she was going to shake him down in the bathroom to share more of his money. Zoe Saldana, she is somebody who is usually there. She was not there. She is almost as rich as the billionaires. She is an unbelievably well paid actress because of her Marvel and Avatar connections. So Zoe's at home count of dollars. Olivia Rodrigo that tracks too. She is political, That would not be surprising. She's in the middle of an album promo, so you might have usually expected her to be there. Lady Gaga an interesting one because she could have been expected to be there because she's in The Devil Wears prior of Too and the rest of the Well. Meryl wasn't there, but Meryl never goes, so that's not surprising. But Anne Hath the way Emily Blunt Stanley Tucci were all there. Speaker 2: Stanley Tucci with Emily blount sister, it's always fun. Speaker 1: So maybe Gaga, but also she's kind of said lately that she's going to focus on promoting things she wants to promote rather than just being around. Lewis Hamilton come on, like he's literally dating Kim Kardashian, who's extremely bezos adjacent. I don't think that was a political. Speaker 3: Let's get to the big guns. Some were missing, right, some who we might have realized. Sarah Jessica Parker. Speaker 1: Yeah, so, Sarah Jessica I reckon. That is probably I would say that's almost definitely a boycott. But she went to support Anna at a dinner, but she didn't. Speaker 3: Go to the There was a dinner on the weekend before the gala. It probably would have been more fun. Speaker 1: Anyways, she said anything, No, she hasn't, but she I think she was in support of the New New York mayor. Right, And obviously he didn't go, but then I wouldn't have expected him to go, and he did post about it. They posted a series of let's sell a the real heroes of fashion and you know, celebrated workers behind the scenes and particular designers and things. So yes, so Sarah Jessica Parker I reckon could be a boycott. But then they're saying, you know, j Lo, I don't think Jalo was boycotting. I just think she's tired. Speaker 3: Harry Styles. Speaker 1: Harry Styles is in the middle of record of rehearsing for his tour. He's in a studio in bethnal Green running through it. Not that I've been stalking him. Justin Bieber, he's just done Coachella. Boy needs to lie down. Miley Taylor Swift, she never goes, and I don't think she's so. I think that some of the boycott cots are not boy I. Speaker 3: Think that's right. But it's interesting that some of the tech billionaires it clearly got to them a little bit. So it's interesting that Jeff did not walk the red carpet with Lauren. That's very unusual. They do everything together. We've learned this from various pieces about them and Lauren's dress being very boring. Do we think that was intentional. Speaker 1: A little bit understated for Lauren, Yeah, but I think it was had a very specific art reference. It was the same dress as someone called Madame X and it's like scandalous women. Speaker 3: Yep. It's interesting though, because Jeff did walk the carpet in twenty thirteen when Amazon sponsored the event. There was no outrage back then when Amazon sponsored the event and he walked with Mackenzie then Mackenzie Bezos his wife at the time. Mark Zuckerberg also made his Met Gala debut with his wife, Priscilla Chan, and they also didn't walk the red carpet, which I thought was interesting because it's kind of like, well, you want to be at the glamorous event, but you don't want the attention of being there. Speaker 1: Do you think they might have been encouraged not to. Speaker 3: I don't think anyone encourages Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos to do anything would have worked exactly. But there were some tech willionaires who did walk the carpet. Google founder Sergei Brinn. He showed up on the red carpet with his girlfriend. Her name is Gaylyn Gilbert Soto. The New York Times describes her as a con conservative gut health influencer. Speaker 1: That is one of the six job title Claire. Speaker 3: Do you think that there's something inherently conservative about gut health? Speaker 2: Yeah, because gut health is very don't take antibiotics and don't take antibiotics is very That's what it's. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which used to be a sort of crunchy hippie vibe, but these days has come back around it. Speaker 3: I thought it was just you know, drink your com your chart, but no, it means it can. Speaker 2: Be very I feel like there's it's a short road from like gut health gut health to to anti vacs. Don't ever give your children antibiotics with my sour crow. Speaker 3: And of course I'm AROUNDA was there. I just have to add she was there with Snapchat founder Evanstein on the carpet, of course. Speaker 1: Possibly the biggest gun that I haven't mentioned though, is Zendaya. She does always go. Usually she didn't go, and that read like a boycott. And some people are saying, if your boycotting, say you're boycotting. I don't think so necessarily. You don't want to necessarily make everything about your politics. But I just have one question. I think that big charity galas of all types have always been, have always reflected the moment therein and they've always been a path to accessing status in a particular society. Watch the Gilded Age, It's all about that. Speaker 3: And Nixon notably said that she thought it was great that the mayor didn't go. Speaker 1: Yes, but like you know, you're reflecting the time. So you're going a big gala ball is the way you get all the fancy people together. This being a tech bro billionaire ball is very reflective of the moment we're living in, right, So is it surprising in any way in the nineteen eighties New York society. It was all about glitz and flash and Donald Trump, and now we're like again, I don't know. I kind of feel like, what did we expect to happen? Speaker 3: No, that's right, But I think that the group that people are most angry at it's not the people who went in their pretty dresses. It's not the people who didn't go and stay quiet about it. It's the people who went but then tried to have their cake and eat it too. See. Speaker 2: I'm not as frustrated about this because Sarah Paulson is getting a hole at a crap because she wore a dress that then and then had a blindfold that was a dollar bill, and it was people like it's making a statement about about like eating the rich. Speaker 3: Well, she herself said that it was a statement about the one. Speaker 2: Besides yes, and and I thought that was like a far swing. But the dress is actually called like the one percent by the artist, the designer who designed it, and the mask was called blinded by Money, and it was a statement on greed and corruption that comes with extreme power. I think it's a little bit unfair to look at her and say, well, you've got a net worth of twelve million dollars at which how does anyone calculate anyone's net worth on the internet? But you have a net worth of that you're at this event, how dare you then make a protest when it's like, well, isn't that exactly how how you do it? Speaker 3: Don't you go in? And well, people do have a history of using that platform. So Alexandra Ocazio Cortez, who is a Democratic congresswoman from New York, famously wore a dress on the Megala red carpet a couple of years ago which said tax the rich. But people actually have the same criticism for her. To your point, Holly, the met Gala in some corners has always been seen as a kind of repulsive show of excess and decadence, and she got a lot of aoc got a lot of flak for even attending the event back then, reading the canapasey while saying. Speaker 1: You guys are discussing while Charlie free directions. Speaker 2: But if you're not there, you don't have a microphone to say anything about the event, do you know? Well, I guess you do. I guess like Vende could opposed to something on Instagram. Speaker 3: If you want Zendaya not going definitely took the air out of the room when that announcement came out, And I guess it wasn't an announcement so much as a news update. Everyone kind of went, that's big. When Zendeia's not there, it's big. Speaker 2: Because she's always one of the coolest on the carpet. Does something really original, remember that, like bloody light up dress and she. Speaker 3: Oh, but there was a bathroom selfie. Some things always stay the same, right, and you saw this by Yes, it's always an iconic bathroom selfie. It's always the thing you want to look for. And there was an amazing one that had you know, the Margo Robbie all the people in it. But one of the things that was most striking about that And so I saw that in the wild last night and I was like, why is there an exceptionally beautiful woman in the middle of that who is wearing a quarter zip sweatshirt? I was like, was she at that party? Speaker 1: And then it's having a lot of headlines today because she is actually a very famous model. Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually love the story behind this. Her name is Bavitha Mandava and she that what she wore was a quarterzip jumper essentially and what looked like jeans. It turns out they weren't just any jeans. The jeans were made with silk muslin and had a blue denim effect. My jeans today have a blue denim effect. And it's a very important iconic look because she opened Chanell's show in December, which was on the New York City Subway, wearing essentially that outfit, and the fashion world lost their mind. That show was like considered extremely groundbreaking, and she was the first Indian model to open a Chanel show and she is now the first South Asian ambassador for Chanel. And incidentally, did you notice that Margot Robbie, who was also Chanel ambassador, It was right next to her in that photo. So Chanell must have been just so happy about the whole thing. Speaker 1: I know, but it just she just looked so out of place. Speaker 3: But that's what made it so good. Speaker 1: Yeah, but I was like wandered into the shop. But she also read all about it and I was amazing. Yet she didn't have to have a bubble machine boobs. Speaker 3: And then that look that she wore on the Chanel catwalk was actually a nod in turn to how she was discovered. I love this so much. She was a grad student m YU and she was discovered on the New York City subway waiting for a train. One would imagine probably wearing a similar outfit to the one she is now wearing in a much more fabulous incarnation at the metgala. Speaker 1: But you were obsessed with another red carpet walk. Speaker 2: Yes, because I am a basic bitch. If, like I swear, if there was like a thermometer for like, what's what does the basic bitch think about anything that's happening in the world right now? It comes over me and it's like bing bing bing bing bing because I saw the red carpet photos of Hugh Jackman in Suton Foster and I think I was sitting opposite you and Holly and I. Speaker 3: Said, oh oh, was like I don't and I'm like, howm my. Speaker 1: Here has it been? Speaker 3: Now? Not that many at least well he was. Speaker 2: Hugh Jackman was on the Red carpet with Debory Furnace in twenty twenty three. Speaker 3: My group chats are very divided on this. Some love the two of them together and some are talking about deb Prowley. Speaker 1: Do you have to not debut your relationship after a divorce five years, ten years? What do we want? Speaker 2: There are no rules, but I am allowed to go oh poor deb Oh, no, I hate that I am allowed. And then the tabloids, because again I'm a basic bitch. The tabloids were like, hey, basic bitches, We've made up a story for you. So there are sources in Inverata commas who say that Debrale Furnace was a huge fan of the event and the decision to bring Sutton Foster was a final blow to deb And what I didn't realize when I went really deep on this was some Foster's wearing a ring, like they think that you proposed in January and they think they're going to have some trend in your wedding. Speaker 1: And is that all are not allowed? He's not allowed to marry again, not ever, not ever. Speaker 3: I I don't know about that. Speaker 1: How do you know that, Deborah Lee Furness. This is what I don't like about this narrative is it victimizes a woman who maybe is totally done with that, you know what I mean. She obviously she made up some statements that made it clear she was not happy when that relationship broke down, But again three years ago, so now she might be living her absolute best life. Thank god I don't have to go to the met gala with that guy. Speaker 3: She disagrees politically too. We don't know anything about it, like she was kind of famously a conservative political voice because he is the godparent of Rupert Murdock and Wendy Dang's children. Also, he's very close with Avanka Trump. So no one was surprised to see Hugh at the slightly maga codd metgala. Speaker 1: Oh wow, he's unfair, And I know no one's crying for the celebrities, but I think it's unfair to brand everybody who was at that red carpet as maga. Speaker 3: Co Oh no, no, no, I did too, But I just I'm saying that he's not exactly Alexandra Orcasio Cortez. No one would be expecting him to make a big political statement about the taxing the rich. No, he's very like to promote. Speaker 1: In a moment, what the heck was all that Baldoni Lively business about? If we've both basically ended with nobody winning and no money changing hands. So moments before one Blake Lively swept onto the met gala carpet looking a bit like Cinderella, very trademark minus the bluebird. She didn't happen. She always said exactly body, She's pretty good all that stuff. But moments before that, a statement dropped into the inboxes of major press outlets, including People, New York Times and so on, and it read the end product the movie. It ends with Us is a source of pride to all of us who worked to bring it to life. And with no context, Everyone's like, why are we reading this? Raising awareness and making a meaningful impact in the lives of domestic violence survivors and all survivors is a goal that we stand behind. It becomes clear this is a joint statement from Blake Lively's team and Justin Baldoni's team about the court case we've all been obsessed about for years. We acknowledge the process, presented challenges, did it. Speaker 3: Recollections and recognized concerns raised by mes Lively deserved to be heard. Speaker 1: We remain firmly committed to workplaces free of improprieties and unproductive environments. This is one of those statements that so many lawyers were involved in drafting that it. Speaker 3: I hate an unproductive environment and I'm with that. Speaker 1: That's fair. It is our sincere hope that this statement brings closure and allows all involved to move forward constructively and in peace, including a respectful environment online. And in the hope of moving forward constructively and in peace, Blake goes to the met gal Yeah, yep. Now we'll get to whether or not they got their respectful environment online, But just a very quick catch up, because we would be here for a year if we went into all the ins and outs of what's been going on here. But it all started when Blake Lively. Do I need to explain who she is? Significant star actress, possessor of wonderful hair, one half of a very powerful Hollywood power couple, made a movie called It Ends with Us, based on one of the best selling books in the past decade by Colleen Hoover. Speaker 2: And you guys are weird about it because I said this morning that it's objectively one of the worst movies I've ever seen. And you guys, it's fine. You guys were so mad well. I didn't stop you so mad well. Speaker 1: I'm gonna get to that in a minute. The thing is is that making a movie based on one of the best selling books of the decade is smart business and lots of people wanted to do it. But the man who owned the rights was Justin Baldoni, who's a lesser known dude. He's an actor, producer, self proclaimed feminist. Done. Some Ted talks about it. Speaker 3: Everything I know about this man I've learned against my will exactly done. Speaker 1: Some Ted talks about it podcast with Liz Plank something something something. Anyway, the movie itself is about domestic balance. That is not a mystery or a surprise at his front and center in the plot. The movie got made, and the movie was a huge hit, proving Claire Stephens wrong. Speaker 3: All I need to say. Speaker 1: Against the modest production budget of twenty five million, it grossed around three hundred and fifty one million dollars. Huge movie, right, But before the hit part happened, obviously, it was obvious that things were for apart. Behind the scenes, everything had gone very very wrong. We're not going to take you through because again I know Klas Stevens has a PowerPoint on this somewhere. You It went very deep at the time. You were a great source of it. Speaker 3: It was great. A lot of this was going down. Speaker 2: I think maybe just as I submitted my books, and my reward to myself was finish your book and you can read all the legal poculars. Speaker 1: Yes, and there was this press tour that was like separate red carpets and warring factions and all this stuff. And then in December twenty twenty four, Lively sued Baldoni, accusing him of harassment, sexual misconduct, and a smear campaign on the set of their movie. She claimed that Baldoni conspired with publicists to preemptively destroy her reputation, hence the dodgy press tour after she privately accused him of sexually harassing her on the movie set. There were a lot of damning texts released, all hell broke loose. Then Baldoni countersued. He basically alleged that Lively and her husband Ryan Reynolds always wanted to take over this movie, the control of the script, to the edit, all the things that they had it in for him, and they used their very famous friends to intimidate and harass him. Speaker 3: I'll never forget the email that when unanswered, that she sent to Matt Damon. Speaker 1: Oh, I know. There were a lot of damning texts revealed. Speaker 2: Again, sorry, the one to Ben Affleck where she like, oh, she just made an awkward joke about how she had sent the email to Matt Damon and how great Matt Damon was, and I was like, honey, that's like Ben Affleck's biggest point of in security is comparing himself to Matt Damon and you don't know the idiots and your correspondence with Ben. Speaker 1: And so here we are suddenly, just weeks before this mess was all going to go to court, all these cases have been it. Speaker 3: Hadn't even gone to court. Speaker 1: No, some things had been dropped dropped. So first of all, Baldoni's case against Lively got dropped, and some elements of Lively's case against him got like so there was all that was stuff, but it was it was meant to go to court I think on May eighteen, so soon. Wow, And days before it's been disappeared. Lawyers have made millions, reputations have been trashed and nobody apparently no money exchanged hands between the two parties, and no one, as you as evidenced by that really confusing press release, nobody is saying that they've won or not. Claire does the fact that Blake Lively stepped onto the met Gala carpet the minute that happened signaled that she sees this as victory or that she'd liked to pretend the whole thing didn't happen, And how the hell does she move forward? Speaker 3: Yeah, Claire, what does that mean that she shot up at the Metgala? Speaker 1: One? Speaker 2: I think it's genius. I always think that the best publicity in response to this stuff is to be around and change the narrative, like changing a different direction. Celebrities are so clever that it is no coincidence that this statement came out when it did and that then she was on a red carpet, because you just you know that there's so much going on in the world. People are going to be all the celebrity reporters are going to be distracted, just like the zones. Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And. Speaker 2: It's the same reason it always happens. When I was editor in chief, the local Australian celebrities would always announce their breakup at like five pm on a Friday, and it's like, you know. Speaker 3: The journals have gone to drinks or boxing day. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, we've gone to drinks, you know that West Skeleton stuff on the weekends. Speaker 3: We're not going to go as hard on this story. Speaker 2: So I think it was smart that it was released when it was, and it was smart that she turned up at the met gala and that she reminded everyone I look really good in address. Speaker 1: You to figure but disagree because what immediately happened the minute she opened her mouth. Speaker 2: Well, this is what's interesting that depending on your algorithm, and depending on what side of the Internet you're on, there are two very different stories. So on certain apps, the story I'm saying is this was a win for Blake Lively that, for example, the line at the end of that statement including a respectful environment online, that that was very much acknowledging what had happened to her, which was all the allegations about manufactur orchestrated campaign. Speaker 1: Because that is the thing that I will take away from this mess the most, is that seeing the messages between Baldoni's press people and him about ways that you can use and manipulate social media to dent somebody's reputation is not just like when you see suddenly start seeing everywhere lots of tiktoks around of like, look at this interview with this person, doesn't she come across a bit like this but there can be a lot more behind it. And this is also things that we pointed out about amber Hood joining the amber Hood Johnny deppcayse that there can be a really orchestrated dark arts going on there, and certainly the examples that were pinging back and forward between Justin Baldoni and his reps suggested that I knew that. Speaker 2: Yeah, And so there's there's a lot of arguments that that line in particular is about what she went through, because she really has been torn apart on the internet. However, I couldn't believe that she turns up at the met Gala. She there's she clearly you could actually tell from her speaking when she was interviewed that she was nervous, that she was trying, like, I can't put my foot in it. Speaker 3: I can't like that. Speaker 2: There have been viral interviews of her for a couple of years now all over the Internet of her just saying slightly the wrong thing in an interview, and it becomes that she's an awful person. Blake Lively did an interview on the met Gala red carpet and it has been analyzed to death, and people think she was rude to the interviewer in this instance, well, you look gorgeous. Speaker 4: I am wearing Jackson weederhot gorgeous, thank you beautiful hair. She yeah, you look studying. And this is archival versace, but they met a fid it by adding a big beautiful train. So it's a piece from two thousand and six. And it was just such an honor to be able to wear this gorgeous, gorgeous gown. It looks like a sunrise and a sunset and watercolor and gorgeous range shworts, jewelry. But this this, but these, this is a Judith leberbag. And we were trying to find a piece of famous iconic art to put on and make it look like it was in a frame. And then I said, would you actually, if you're gonna make it custom, would you do my kid's art? So my kids each painted a painting, a watercolor painting. So each of my four kids did this. Speaker 1: That is so spoo especial. Speaker 4: So I have them with me. Speaker 2: And that has been interpreted as her being a bit, as her being dismissive, as her being self scentered. The other thing that's been I think we want to know what this is. Speaker 1: So here's my challenge to your strategy, be public, give them things to talk about, because she can't get away from this narrative now for some time, it's been years of her lit like every time she opens her mouth. There's a lot of people invested in you're a terrible person, as you say, so they're just going to find ways to say that over and over again. In the way that the Internet is now very invested in hating Blake Lively a certain so, just in the way that the internet's very invested in hating Megan Markele. It doesn't matter what she does, what she says, where she goes. You can't win that game. Speaker 2: One of the great arguments was it costs one hundred k for a plate at the Met gala, and part of her claim was the financial stress caused by Baldoni smear campaign. And it's like she's not paying for that one hundred k plate, neither is anyone people being like I thought you were arguing you were locked out of Hollywood. Speaker 3: Doesn't look like you're locked out of Hollywood. Speaker 2: And she had a bag where her interpretation of the art theme was that she got her four kids to draw a picture on each side of the back no self centered, made it about you. Speaker 3: You wanted to. Speaker 2: Claim authorship over this event, So there are people. Speaker 1: This is why I think her best strategy is to go away for a few years. Speaker 2: Yeah, because I think the weird thing is I think if Justin Baldoni had turned up, I think there's something, there's an anonymity that we give men that we just don't give women like I just don't think he is going to be plagued in the same way. And I think it's Marina Hyde who says he'll probably do some low budget it. Speaker 1: Will definitely have dented his possibilities of becoming a big name. I think that because, as Marina Hyde says in that story in The Guardian, she wrote a column about this, saying that the overarching lesson of this whole thing is never ever go to court, never ever ever. And they didn't actually end up in court, but still is that for the rest of time. Their names are now linked, every interview, every pro file, every project they do. This will always be part of the story in a way that it wouldn't if it hadn't entered the courts. But when I say I think go away free, I don't mean disappear like I don't mean silencing women. I mean work on projects, work on producer projects, hustle behind the scenes, do all your hollywoody stuff until you can come back to address this with more nuanced Look at Lena Dunnan. We've been talking about that a lot lately. Famously one of the most hated women on the internet for a period of time, couldn't put a foot right, couldn't do anything right, opened her mouth, everybody jumped on her. We know how the culture treats women who speak out about all kinds of things. There are local examples of this too. In a way. You've got to like let the air out of it and then come back when there's some nuance and distance. Speaker 3: You know what I mean That her while best friend Taylor Swift would have told her that too, because Taylor, of course also famously disappeared and was getting around in large boxes for a while just to stay out of the public eye. That comment of Marina Hides about never go to court is interesting because a few years ago, someone in a professional context did something to me that made me want to take them to court, and so I went to talk to a lawyer about it, who have been recommended to me, and the lawyer heard me out. I was very grateful for the advice she gave me. She said, look, I think you have a strong case, but if you did this, everyone in your field would say that you were a nightmare, no matter what happened in the court case, no matter how right you are, and I do think you're right, it would affect you professionally and it would follow you professionally for the rest of your life. And I think getting that advice from someone who had kind of a monetary gain to taking the case on was something I really appreciated. And I just wonder if Blake Lively's legal advice turned out to be deeply misguided. Speaker 1: I know. The sad thing about this argument I've never taken to court is, of course, that women putting up with sexual harassment at work are just always this guy from ever doing anywhere with it, because you're going to get your character smeared. And it might be on the scale of a Blake Lively, or it might be just the local gossip at the football club, like whatever it is, and that it's like we've seen this play out in massive letters across the sky that watch out, women will get you one way or another, and whether or not Blake Lively is particularly likable, is always nice to everybody? Blah blah blah, isn't the point? Speaker 2: Yeah, it is quite scary for women knowing that if you pursue, which is what an element of what Blake Lively was pursuing, a sexual harassment claim, that all your texts will be looked over and mocked and made fun of. Like, that's a really scary cost to pay. After the break James Valentine and why everyone's talking about the concept of a living wake. On the twenty second of April of this year, cast out musician and author James Valentine died age sixty four, leaving behind his son, his daughter, and his wife. The ABC veteran had terminal cancer, and he was widely loved by his audience, who had been listening to him for three decades. He had been transparent over the last two and a half years about his health. He was a very talented saxophone player and anyone who grew up in the eighties in Australia probably knows him as part of the band The Models and their iconic songs Barbados and Out of Mind, Out of Sight, and he was a Sydney radio presenter. Emilia and Holly, what was your connection to James Valentine as a radio personality? Speaker 3: He was a really important figure in my childhood. He hosted a thing called the Afternoon Show on ABC when back when there were forty TV channels in this country. I remember those days, and he would host and it was cartoons, it was variety. And I never really listened to him on the radio, but I have such you know, in the way that those childhood figures loom large for you. I've always held such fondness and affection for him. And how about you, Hollie. Speaker 1: He's clearly just an incredibly skilled communicator. I mean, I would be lying if I said I listened to that show. But anyone who knows how radio works, how the ABC works, so many people I know who know him. He was just clearly exceptionally good at what he did and very loved. Speaker 2: It's a reminder I think that parasocial relationships have existed long before the Internet. The fact that when the news of his death came out there was a widespread kind of public grieving and a lot of listeners who called in the next day, and his wife and his kids were kind of saying how much that meant to have people remember their dad through sense of humor and his energy. So two and a half years ago he was diagnosed with esophagal cancer and he was given two different treatment options, and he chose the one that was a bit less invasive and would preserve the things he loved in life, which were presenting radio, playing saxophone and enjoying food. Then in January of this year, he's given a terminal diagnosis and his response to that diagnosis and what he planned to do next was documented in Monday's episode of Australian Story, presented by Lee Sales, and it started a huge conversation about the concept of a living wake, which he very fittingly held on Valentine's Day of this year. Here's what he said on the show stage. Speaker 5: Four, terminal, inoperable, uncurable. I don't want to hear any of those words, let alone in the one sentence. So a friend suggested Tommy, maybe you should do a living wake, and oh, that sounds like fun. I will know the time and the day and so it'll be the last weekend. What do you do on that last weekend's dinner? Before? What do you think is that the last meal, I will probably know exactly when I'm going. Speaker 1: That's so moving. So seeing the footage of his reference at the end there was due to the fact that he ultimately chose the time he was going to die, right. Speaker 2: Yeah, he chose voluntary assisted dying and was very transparent around how he made that decision and what that decision entailed. For context, voluntary assisted dying is legal in all states in Australia and the Act except the Northern Territory, and obviously it's an incredibly complex and incredible, incredibly personal decision that has sparked. It's sparking more and more conversation the more we have and aging population and the more people are getting certain diagnoses that may keep them alive for a very long time, but the quality of that life may be poor, and him kind of taking people through that decision was a huge part of the Australian story. But it meant that he got to plan this living wake and there's footage of it, and he's got his family and friends there and there are so many familiar ABC faces and he's really good friends with Norman Swan, who he had on radio to discuss his diagnosis, like what all the different parts of the body were and what they did. And there was something so moving about seeing him on stage with a microphone at his own wake, basically saying, please come up to me and tell me stories and memories about us, because they are what's going to carry me through the next few weeks. And I guess I thought it must be such a relief for his family that then when you do a funeral, he's heard all the beautiful things that you're then going to say about him. I think this is really something we should we should all be looking at. Speaker 1: If it's possible, this episode of Australian Story is really recommended viewing. I think, whether you know who James Valentine is or not, in a world where we hate to talk about death, and yet it touches everybody obviously, I mean that's a ridiculous thing to say, but it does touch everybody. I'd lost a friend to this same cancer when he was only forty six. It's like all cancers. It's a it's it's cruel and the idea that we're also we don't like talking about illness, we don't like talking about death, and seeing somebody such a skilled communicator like James Valentine in this episode talking about why he wanted to do the things he did, and they document the year so very like him talking about how very much clarified for him that he loved his work, so he didn't want to stop working. He loved playing his saxophone, so he wanted to try and avoid procedures that were going to stop him from doing that. That he really wanted to work, play and be with his family, and those are the things he wanted to spend his last year doing. It's just it's very powerful, it's very clarifying. And then to see him at his living way and he says, you know, it wakes People always say, oh, he would have loved me there, and he says, so I wanted to be there, And I just think it's very refreshing. I think, you know, I, as I said, I didn't have a direct listenership with Joe's Valentine, but people who do, and people I know who've worked with him said he brought joy all the time. And it feels like a gift to give be so honest and so open and so clear eyed in talking about this thing that nobody wants to talk about. Is like the last incredible gift that a great communicator could give, and his family is so amazing in it. I really recommend watching the show. Speaker 2: There's a great quote in one of the ABC articles about his kind of decision making towards towards the end, where I think, as a psychologist says, dying people are not the actual act of dying is not the thing they're most scared of. They're scared of the invisibility and the absence of conversation around it. They're scared of people turning away and not wanting to be around them because of how confronting it is. And this was just such a reminder to look it straight in the eye and have the existential conversations with the people around you. The way that he spoke to his kids, and his kids were able to say, what do you think is going to happen afterwards? Speaker 3: And I bet that that's so much harder to do than even it looks. It doesn't look easy, but I bet it's even harder to actually enact these principles that we can all agree are worthwhile. Speaker 1: I love that his kids say that this was perfect for him in particular, this living weight, because he loved being center of attention. He loved a party, He loved being told I'm brad he was. I love the way they you know that families are really kind of I mean, I'm sure no families are perfect, but they're really healthy and loving when they can just call out that stuff about you and be like, he would love this because he just loves everybody tell him how great he is. Speaker 3: So good. Speaker 2: Yeah, And I loved that it wasn't a sanitized version because I think something I always bristle at is when you hear of somebody getting a terminal diagnosis or of you know, knowing that they're going to die. I bristle at the narrative of I guess almost toxic positivity that they're just like, well, I'm completely grateful and joyful. And then I feel for the people who don't have that response, which is completely bloody normal. But I loved there was a lot of light and shade in this. They talked about they went on a holiday, a family holiday to Bali, just before he was meant to get the surgery for his esophagus, and that the whole family's like, oh so bloody terrible holiday. Everyone was sick, everyone had covid Dad. Speaker 3: Had BALI belly like. It's sort of I like that. Speaker 2: In documenting this time, they've been able to show the highs and lows of what happened. But the nort Yeah, how normal it is. But the fact that he was able to do it his way, and that those conversations around what you want, what you don't want, they give so much empowerment in those in those final months and final days. Speaker 1: Something completely different. There was celebrity baby news this week that I must mark because it was interesting. Cameron Diaz and Benji Madden just welcomed their third child. And it's interesting because Cameron is fifty three. Now. When I say that, I don't mean it's interesting in that way of like, oh, miracle baby, how did she do that? Why did you do that? Cameron Diaz. They announced that their little boy had come. They announced what his name was. His name is Nortous and he joins Raddix and Cardinal, which are all just the most rock star names of all time. They announced it. They didn't give any more details than that. It is safe to assume just because Cam's been on a press tour lately, she's been quite visible on a tour for a movie called Outcome, So she's been very visible, and it's safe to assume possibly that she wasn't heavily pregnant during that time, so likely that a surrogate was involved, but none of our business. But the thing that I found really interesting and refreshing that I wanted to unpack a little bit here is I wrote an essay a while ago when Sienna Miller was on the Red Carpet with her beautiful baby bump at I think forty three, and saying how we're entering a bit of an era of agelessness because perhaps of fertility technology, because of the different options that are open to us now, because of Hollywood and the wellness world's obsession with longevity, that we're in a different era now when it comes to age and women and kids. And I think nothing illustrates that more clearly than the fact that there haven't been a whole waterfall of stories about like, oh my god, a mom at fifty three and how could she and why would she? And da da da da. Is that now we're much more kind of like in the way that we might be about a man becoming a father at fifty three, because if you remove the biological complication from the advance for chility technology and all those things. It isn't really any different than the guy who's been doing that forever. Yeah, am I right? Yeah? Speaker 2: No, I think so too. The interesting thing is, as well, when I've looked at this story, how old Benji Madam? Well, nobody ever, as I don't know, I don't know, why didn't I. Speaker 1: Google similar age? I think, well, let's find it happen. Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're seven, so being a little bit younger Benji's forty seven, bloody spring chicken. But I it's interesting because whenever I see pregnancy baby news, it's obviously the life stage. Speaker 3: I'man, I always google. Speaker 1: How old is how? Speaker 3: How old is that? Speaker 1: Money is she? Speaker 2: And you're right that we don't when we wouldn't blink an eye at a man having a child at fifty three. And obviously, if you want to think about any of the things that make rearing children. Speaker 3: Difficult, the older you get. Speaker 2: I mean, Amaran Diaz looks like a bloody pillar of health. She's gonna live forever, She's gonna live till she's undred. Speaker 3: Well, I think what's interesting is that you said no one will blink, and I about a man. I wonder if, now, because women are also having babies older, all of a sudden, we're starting to blink her eyes at men having babies older. Men were allowed to do it for all of human history, but now that women are starting to do it, we're starting to revisit the whole idea of older parents because. Speaker 2: We are interested, and there is actually more and more scientific research going into the health impacts of older because you know how, I'm called geriatric. Just for the record, I'm a geriatric mother. What age, I'm thirty five years old. No, they don't. They call it advanced material. Speaker 3: They definitely call it just it's kind of coolrophistic. Speaker 1: They definitely did call it geriatric though, when I had my second child at forty, I that's interesting. Speaker 2: But if they call Brent geriatric, no, but they should have done it because he's elderly, I think. Speaker 1: I think that's interesting. But then that also assumes. Speaker 3: Like the judgments creeping in for both sexes now, is what I'm saying. Speaker 1: Yes, and that assumes the idea about like we're becoming aware of the risks of older parents assumes assumes a lot about what might be going on here biologically. Yes, exactly, whereas if Cameron Diaz and Benji Madden and whoever else may be in their cohort are having are assessing all the risks, I'm sure they are. We know how health obsessed Hollywood is and making those choices, and there I think. I don't know that's interesting though, Amelia, where you say that that maybe the judgment, instead of fading away, just attaches itself to both genders. Speaker 3: Well, because I don't think it is just about biology. I think it would be we need to put on the table to not be disingenuous. That a lot of people listening to this may have a reaction of if you have a baby at a more advanced age, shall we say, in your fifties, you automatically do a bit of maths, and you think, well, when that child in school, Cameron Diaz will be sixty three. I don't know how old Benji Madden will because I'm not that good at maths, but he'll be also kind of old. And so I think that's one of the concerns that people are now voicing a little bit more when no one ever used to say, well, Mick Jagger is going to be so old when his kids graduate but now we are starting to say that or feeling perhaps feeling more comfortable to say that. Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting. But then I think in this privileged bubble that we're talking about, longevity is an obsession. So I think that that is also changing. This right is that people are thinking rightly, wrongly whatever that with all the right advances and all the right supplements and all the right that they're imagining themselves at seventy three, at this kid's twenty first, like leaping around, I'm doing yoga and pilate, particularly if they. Speaker 2: And Brian Johnson says he's got what is it the sperm of a twenty old? Think about that, man, Yeah, So I'm sure Cameron and Benji are having the same conversation. Speaker 3: So Cameron has remember she literally wrote a book about sort of how to be healthy as you get older, so she's this is clearly on her radar that she's sort of anticipating she will be living a long time. Speaker 1: That's always got time for on this Wednesday. Speaker 3: At births, deaths, any marriages, No. Speaker 1: There weren't any couples at the met gala, were they? They all went. Speaker 2: Solo boycotting, boycotting marriage on the metal, or. Speaker 1: Maybe it was like, unless that engagement wing comes from Amazon, we don't sink, perhaps in her body, her head and she did anyway. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for to our amazing team for helping us put the show together. We're going to be back in your ears on Friday, of course, and for subscribers with some scorelous gossip with Mia tomorrow. That's all. Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Adam remains incapable of saying the title of the Doctor Who episode, 'The Interstellar Song Contest' starring Ncuti Gatwa, and he continues reading tributes to saxophonist and television presenter James Valentine, who factored so large in the lives of young Who-fans of the late eighties. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Before getting into the Ncuti Gatwa Doctor Who episode 'The Interstellar Song Contest,' Adam reads some lovely messages about the passing of Australian broadcaster James Valentine. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How should Christians respond when voluntary assisted dying is publicly framed as dignified, compassionate and courageous?James Valentine has been rightly honoured as a much-loved broadcaster in the wake of his death last week.  But alongside the tributes there's been significant reflection on his choice to use voluntary assisted dying in the language of control, dignity, generosity and dying “his way”.How do we honour and grieve a much-loved public figure, while still asking serious ethical and pastoral questions about voluntary assisted dying? Has the public conversation shifted from VAD as a last resort to VAD as a normal end-of-life choice?As we think carefully about death, autonomy, compassion, medicine, conscience and Christian hope we are joined by:Dr Megan Best, senior researcher and professor of bioethics at the Institute of Ethics & Society at the University of Notre Dame Australia & Director of Ethicenter and Emeritus Professor Michael Quinlan of the University of Notre Dame.  Michael is also on the board of Freedom for Faith and Ethical End of Life Care. Anglican AidTo find out more about supporting Anglican Aid.Reach Australia For more on the Reach Australian National Conference 18-21 May go here The Church Cohttp://www.thechurchco.com is a website and app platform built specifically for churches.  Advertise on The Pastor's HeartTo advertise on The Pastor's Heart go to thepastorsheart.net/sponsorSupport the show

UFOs - Alt Med - Newsletter 00:00:00 Introduction Richard Saunders     00:04:34 High Flyers in the UFO Industry A look at some of the people who have hitchhiked along the cosmic highway to catch a long ride on the UFO bandwagon, with particular attention on Bob Lazar.     00:19:34 Vale James Valentine We pay respects to James Valentine who died in the last week. James was a much loved broadcaster from Sydney and over the years provided quality entertainment to thousands of viewers and listeners. In 1989 and 2014 he interviewed Skeptic Zone host Richard Saunders.     00:32:20 Australian Skeptics Newsletter What news has caught the eye of news editor Dee this week? Read by Adrienne Hill. Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au     00:42:34 The TROVE Archives A wander through the decades of digitised newspapers to look for references to 'Alternative Medicine'. Includes a TV segment from c.2002 with skeptical investigator Alynda Brown.     1991.07.17 - Hills Messenger - SA     1987.10.13 - The Canberra Times www.trove.nla.gov.au Also We Can Reason - May Fri 1 — Sun 3, 2026 https://wecanreason.com

Don't Read the Comments is an irregular podcast on our feed where we ignore the show's title and actually read online comments relating to something going on in the world of Doctor Who. Today, something a little different. With the passing of radio broadcaster James Valentine, who Rob crossed paths with early in his Doctor Who fandom in a rather significant way, and who many Australian Doctor Who fans will know if they were watching the Sylvester McCoy era on first broadcast, he talks unscripted about James' passing... and reads some comments. Contact us: Bluesky: @thedwshow.net X / Twitter: @theDWshow Email: hello@theDWshow.net Substack: thedwshow.substack.com Facebook: facebook.com/theDWshow

Much loved ABC broadcaster James Valentine has died at 64 after a battle with cancer.

Play The Mighty Challenge, Thursday April 23 edition to see if you have the answer! 

Much loved ABC broadcaster James Valentine has died at 64 after a battle with cancer.

Health Minister Mark Butler has detailed big cuts to the National Disability Insurance Scheme, in this edition of the Conversation Hour we talk through what changes are being made and take your questions.Also on the program, remembering James Valentine, a new report into Australia's food security, plus we meet the mum of a six year old golfer off to compete in Canada.

Much loved ABC broadcaster James Valentine has died at 64 after a battle with cancer.

It's been a sad day for ABC listeners and staff after the passing of great broadcaster and musician James Valentine. In an emotional and very personal tribute Andrew Moore explains how James used his incredible radio brain to help the NRL team out. Plus you can hear why Jake Trbojevic is feeling like he might have another in him. And there's some Dragons signing news in MC's Hammertime.

In this episode Jen and Steve look at GfK Radio 360 Survey 2: Where there was less impact on ARN’s KIIS stations in Sydney and Melbourne than many thought Smooth 95.3 broke records for listenership and CADA ruled the DAB+ roost We hear from the content heads of each network, including an extended interview with ARN's Kerri and Dave and a tribute ABC Sydney’s James Valentine who has died aged 64. More at www.radioinfo.com.au See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

FULL SHOW : Tim Cook is stepping down as Apple CEO so we talk to Triple M Tech Expert Trevor Long, the Nipple Cripple Court case is over so we reveal our true feelings, Max Gawn stops by to talk Richmond V Dees. ABC's Leigh Sales will touch on the passing of James Valentine and what's the deal with all these Communal Toilets? Catch Mick in the Morning, with Roo, Titus & Rosie LIVE from 6-9am weekdays on 105.1 Triple M Melbourne or via the LiSTNR app. Mick In The Morning Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/molloy Triple M Melbourne Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/triplemmelb Drop us a voice memo: https://www.mickinthemorning.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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It has been just two weeks since GfK Survey 8 and yet what is usually a gentle start to the year in radioland has been anything but. Nine Radio’s sale goes through Changes for Nova Sydney breakfast and afternoons James Valentine retires and triple j gets a new music director New execs for the Super Radio Network ARN offloads more SCA shares And we’ll shine a light on the National Radio Airplay Chart song of the week by Harry Styles HAVE YOU ENTERED THE AUDIO AWARDS YET? https://mumbrella.com.au/audioawards www.radiotoday.com.au See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Host Nigel Marsh speaks to James Valentine, a journalist, musician, author , television presenter and family man. As if all that wasn't enough, in an incredible feat of multi tasking, industriousness and longevity, he has also presented a hugely popular radio show on the ABC consistently for the last 30 years Hear each song chosen by every Five of My Life guest at: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/60PqJQ1rg6fverFMyKvdkG Follow The Five of My Life on Instagram: The Five of My Life (@thefiveofmylife) Contact Nigel at https://nigelmarsh.com/

We crack open the LNK Today Time Capsule and take the time machine back to this week in Lincoln, 1962. The Voice of Husker Volleyball, John Baylor, stops by as we preview Nebraska's Friday night matchup at Wisconsin. Plus with Maroon 5 in town tonight, we take a deep dive in the Lincoln Southeast yearbook as James Valentine returns to LNK.

#Musicians #adamlevine & #JamesValentine chat about #maroon5's new #LoveisLike #tour and #performingarts #Celebrity #interview #TonyToscano #ScreenChatter #music #touring

As many of you may already know, every second Tuesday, JimmyT goes on ABC Radio with James Valentine on his Afternoon show to chat about apartments. Last week, Jimmy and James took calls from listeners about what you can and can't put on balconies, compulsory training for strata committees, tradies who block car spaces, and car lifts that break down.They also heard from one gentleman who hates strata and everything to do with it. As usual, it's a lively segment, so we thought you might like a taste of what you get on the radio.Jimmy is on with James on Tuesday afternoon, June the 3rd at 2pm. Why not send them a text on 0467 922 702 or call on 1300 222 702 and ask a curly question of your own. And you can hear more of James (without Jimmy) on ABC Afternoons.____________________________________________________Flat Chat is all about apartment living, especially in Australia.Find us on Facebook and Twitter and the Flat Chat website.Send comments and questions to mail@flatchat.com.au.Register to ask and answer questions about apartment living anonymously on the website.Recorded by Jimmy Thomson & Sue Williams; Transcribed by Otter.ai.Find out more about Sue Williams and Jimmy Thomson on their websites.

After life The question of the afterlife fascinates us all, whether shaped by science, spirituality or something in between. In this episode, we explore what happens at the end of life, and what might follow, in a conversation with psychic medium Debbie Malone and science writer and journalist Bianca Nogrady. About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors. Join James Valentine for the sixth season of Life’s Booming: Dying to Know, our most unflinching yet. We’ll have the conversations that are hardest to have, ask the questions that are easy to ignore, and hear stories that will make you think differently about the one thing we’re all guaranteed to experience: Death. From vivid, near-death experiences to the quiet moments before death, this episode looks at how people make sense of the unknown. You’ll hear how psychic mediums describe receiving messages from those who’ve passed, what it feels like to come back from the brink, and how the scientific community approaches questions of consciousness, the soul, and what defines the moment of death. Debbie Malone is one of Australia’s most recognised psychic mediums, with over three decades of experience connecting people to their loved ones in spirit. As a medium, author and spiritual teacher, she works with individuals and audiences seeking comfort and closure, and has also assisted police on high-profile investigations involving missing persons and unsolved crimes. Bianca Nogrady is a journalist, author and science communicator who has spent more than a decade writing about death, dying and what it means to be mortal. Her book The End: The Human Experience of Death explores how cultures, clinicians, and individuals confront the reality of dying, and what we can learn from it. If you have any thoughts or questions and want to share your story to Life’s Booming, send us a voice note – lifesbooming@seniors.com.au Watch Life’s Booming on YouTube Listen to Life's Booming on Apple Podcasts Listen to Life's Booming on Spotify For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency, in conjunction with Ampel Sonic Experience Agency -- Disclaimer: Please be advised that this episode contains discussions about death, which may be triggering or upsetting for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. If you are struggling with the loss of a loved one, please know that you are not alone and there are resources available. For additional support please contact Lifeline on 131 114 or Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636. TRANSCRIPT: S06EP07 After life James: Hello and welcome to Life's Booming. I'm James Valentine and this season we're talking about death. In this episode, well, this is a debate that's been going ever since we were alive. What happens after we die? No matter your religion or spiritual beliefs, the question of the afterlife fascinates us all. James: With the help of my guests, I'll explore everything we know, or perhaps don't quite know, about it from both a spiritual and scientific perspective. Bianca Nogrady is an award winning science journalist and the author of The End, The Human Experience of Death, and Debbie Malone is a psychic medium who felt a spiritual awakening after a series of near-death experiences. James: Bianca, Debbie, welcome to Life's Booming. So, Debbie, this starts with you. You've had a lot of near-death experiences. Debbie: Yes, I have. I had one at three and 13, then I had some, had another two in my early 20s. And then I had a miscarriage and then I woke up and started seeing murders and it was the backpacker murders, [that] was the first thing that I actually saw. James: What do you mean by seeing them? Debbie: I was becoming a victim and I was being, you know, I was being attacked and murdered, in visions and dreams. At the time the backpacker murders was a really big thing on the news and I just thought I was watching TV too much. And then I started to see things before they happened on the news. I used to work at Fairfax community newspapers and I kept seeing all of these different visions and I spoke to one of the journalists and he said, why don't we do a story about you and just see what happens. And then it ended up, Ivan Milat's girlfriend, Chalinda Hughes contacted the newspaper and wanted to make contact. And I ended up, consequently, working on the case with the taskforce for quite a few, quite a few years. James: Right. I feel I'm automatically going to go a bit glib, but you mean they go, okay, so Debbie, what's happened? What can we expect this weekend? Debbie: Yeah. And it's, and it's funny cause it's not like that. Because it's, and me being the sceptic, all I wanted to do was to shut it down. I didn't want to do anything, have anything to do with it. I'd never had a reading. I didn't, you know, have tarot cards or anything like that. And when it started to happen, at first the police were quite sceptical and I had to speak to a few different officers and then they just said, just keep a diary. And they said, don't think about what you see, just write it down, put a date down. And when I had enough information, I would send it through to them. I can't say that I have solved cases, it's more like I'm a profiler. So I can see, I can describe things. And the thing is with, when it comes through, it can be the past, it can be the present, or it can be the future. So it's like pieces of a puzzle. It's almost like playing charades in a way. So you're hearing things and seeing things and you try and work it out. James: So police weren't sceptical of this. Debbie: Oh, some were, some were. And yeah, I've had some challenging experiences with them, but I've had some incredible officers that I've worked with, you know, during the time as well. And I just thought once I did something with the backpacker murders, it would all go away and I wouldn't have to deal with it anymore. I kind of thought that would be it. James: And by all go away, you mean the kind of visions you were having or you, you were getting a sense of, of… Are you, in this sense, are you someone who's seeing the future or are you someone who's seeing glimpses of the afterlife or something like that? Debbie: All of it. So the victims were coming to me, the two English girls were coming to me, and one of the visions was I could see somebody walking them into the forest, but I couldn't see who he was because I was seeing through his eyes. So they were walking away from me and they were kind of pleading with me to help them and then it would stop and then I would get a wall full of Polaroid images. And then it ended up, most of the images of the Polaroids were the other victims. But at the time, I didn't know. It was only later on when the case, you know, became solved – and some of those faces still haven't been, they haven't been linked to the case, so I think there's so many more. James: So going back to your near-death experiences. What did you see when that happened? What was your near-death experience? Debbie: My most vivid one, when I was 34, I had to have a major operation and I told the doctors that I was going to die and they thought I was being stupid. And I said about the anesthetic and they didn't believe me. Anyway, when I went through, I woke up after the operation and I was in a higher dependency, but they put me on a morphine drip and I didn't know I was allergic to morphine. So they kept telling me to, you know, push the button. And when I did, I ended up having a lot of really horrible visions to start with, but then I went through to this beautiful place. It was like, it was like a rollercoaster. Like, I love the night sky, and it was like I went up, I felt like I was an astronaut without a craft and I just could see the universe and I felt very calm. And then it was a lot of movement. The movie Contact for me is very close to my experience. And then I suddenly went into like, I would call it like a black hole. Cause I kind of feel like it was a vortex and I got sucked into it. But then, the movement was getting faster and faster, it's a bit like being on a rollercoaster. And then I landed in this meadow and everything seemed more colorful than it is here. And the stupid part about it, there was a privet hedge, I remember that. And it was about this tall, and there's this, like this little gate and there were people in front of me and they all went ahead, and then there's people on the other side and they all seemed so happy and you know, it just seems so beautiful and just, I felt so loved and peaceful. Then I got to my turn to go through the little gate and they said, no, you can't. And I'm a bit like, you know, I'm not the person that pushes in at the deli line. So it's like, you know, it's my turn. I want to go through. And they said, no, no, no, you can't, turn around. So I turned around and it was like, I was up in the sky, and I could see my – it makes me cry nearly every time I talk about it – I could see down that my one-year-old daughter was in my husband's arm, my three-year-old son was beside him and my seven-year-old was there, and the two boys are saying, where's mummy, where's mummy, and he said, mummy's not coming back, mummy's in heaven now. And then suddenly I fell back down and I'm back into the hospital room and the nurse is shaking me and they're pulling the morphine drip out. And she said, what are you doing? And I said, Oh, you know, I'm going to the light. And she said, not on my shift, it's too much paperwork. [laughter] James: Oh, the New South Wales public health system, it'll fix you up at any time. When you did your book, Bianca, did you do, did you talk to people with near-death experience or did you cover that area? Bianca: I did. I mean, the aim of my book was really to take, to kind of explore right up to the moment of death, but not beyond because I felt that my skills did not equip me to assess that in any kind of, in any form. But obviously people with near-death experiences did talk to me and also people who had talked to people with near-death experiences. Because one thing that really struck me with any time I hear stories like that is the people who've had them seem to lose their fear of death. You know, I think we all carry this fear of death in us. And I think it motivates a lot of what we do, but it, you know, I remember one woman just saying it was just so beautiful; I'm not scared, I'm just not scared of it anymore. James: Did you hear any, did people say the kind of detail that Debbie's describing there? I've never heard that. I've heard the light or that sort of thing, or feeling. I've never heard of such detail. Bianca: There was actually a study that was done that looked at a whole range of near-death experiences and tried to, I guess, classify some of the common elements to them and they sort of, that idea of there's a journeying, you know, it's a tunnel, it's driving down a road, maybe a rollercoaster, that there are, there's a journeying process and then there's a decision point. And at that decision point or junction, there is a sense that what is beyond is wonderful, that it's extraordinary and I want to be there. But then, either somebody says to them, no, it's not your time, there's something that turns them back. And I can't remember whether it's ever something that people, someone makes a conscious decision not to. From memory, people want to go forward, but someone else says, no, this is not your time. And, so, there's a pattern to those experiences, but in terms of the individual things, like I remember, one of the stories was a young soldier in world war… one of the major world wars, you know, who thought he was walking with his friends and then his friends just all kind of, he was just walking down this road and his friends just gradually disappeared. And, and then I think there was a point where someone said, no soldier, you've got to stop, go back. And so, you know, we bring to it our own circumstance, context, to it. But those features are common in all of them. James: But always good? Always in a sense of like going towards something good. This is going to be fine? Bianca: Well, it's interesting because there is a very small, very small, percentage of people who have horrific experiences, terrifying, terrifying experiences. I didn't hear of any of those stories, I don't know if you've encountered those… Debbie: Yeah, I have heard of that. Sometimes it's like they feel that, that movie What Dreams May Come, that Robin Williams was in, that kind of thing – kind of being stuck or earthbound, because a lot of the time when it's, sometimes it's someone who's tried to suicide and that they weren't, they weren't successful. James: I wonder if the, the near-death experience is a cultural thing. Like, did you look at that at all? Is it, is that… along the ways in which we talk about it seem to me very Western and almost very English, you know, like we talk about that sort of tradition. What do the South Americans do? What are the, what do the Germans do? Bianca: I think it is a cross-cultural phenomenon that, I mean, there's even, I think the earliest record of a near death, or what we think is a record of a near-death experience is actually from ancient Greece, and it was a description of a warrior. I don't know if there has been any kind of cross-cultural comparisons around near-death experiences. It would be really interesting. But I think what seems to come out is that it is very unique to that individual, what that experience is in terms of what the, what form the journey takes. James: You said Bianca, your book was, you know, I wanted to do up to death. What did you decide death was? Bianca: Well, that's a very good question because we don't actually, the definition of death is contested. And it is culturally specific. There are whole conferences that are held, still, on how we define death, and it's incredibly difficult. And the thing is, we don't need to define death unless we are wanting to donate organs. That's essentially the main reason we need a definition of death. We need a legal definition of death, so that if somebody is an organ donor, we know that removing their organs is not actually killing them. But it's incredibly complex. It's around the notion of when your heart stops, are you dead? But if your heart stops, we can restart your heart. If you stop breathing, we can re-, we can ventilate you. If your brain stops, how do we measure what brain activity, what's the difference between someone, for example, who's in [an] incredibly deep coma versus someone who might be what we now term as brain dead. And again, those definitions differ in different countries. I mean, again, if there's no time pressure, such as there would be with something like organ donation, then we do have the luxury of time to be able to wait. But there have been numerous cases where – there was one case in fact, where a surgeon was facing manslaughter charges because [of] a dispute over whether the person was in fact dead when he began to remove the organs. And it has very specific applications. There's been legal cases around brain death where two people were involved, a husband and wife involved in a car accident, who died first because that had implications in terms of the inheritance. And so there have been very complicated cases. And I mean, we talk about, well, brain death, well, loss of activity in the brain. But there is a state of, for lack of a better word, chronic brain death where people… The longest, I think, was somebody who literally survived for a decade and a half, a child who, I think they suffered meningitis, but they were kept on life support, breathing, they went through puberty. And then when they finally decided, we're not going to treat, or the decision was made to cease treatment for pneumonia, for example, which I guess is, you know, usually a common cause of death at that state. And when the autopsy was performed, and sorry this is a little bit brutal, but the brain was essentially calcified. So this, this individual was by legal definitions alive, up until that point, but you know, were they there? What had departed from that person? James: If the brain is the seed of consciousness, then they could not have been conscious, but then is the brain the seed of consciousness? You know, like all sorts of questions there. What do you think death is, Debbie, what's death? Debbie: Yeah, it's a hard one because I do believe there is life after, I suppose, the death is the death of the body, but I don't think it's the death of the soul. And I find that that's the thing that lives on and even you can measure it like when you make contact sometimes with spirit, they were an electromagnetic frequency. So EMF testers that you'd use to test a microwave will actually indicate when there's a spirit in the room, you know. But, when you're talking about transplants, another thing that I was thinking, I've done readings for people, like a lady who'd had a transplant. So she ended up, she was in a coma, but she had had a transplant from a young man, and it was a lung transplant, I think. And then she was in a coma and her mum came to see me, to see if like… because when people are in a coma, I can communicate with them even though they are still physically alive. And what was interesting, the person from the transplant came through the reading at the same time as the person who was the recipient. So it's, and you think, well, he's passed away, but he's living on through her. That, you know, but then he gave life to her to extend her life. So… Bianca: …I find that fascinating… Debbie: … that's even like, I suppose that's a whole other story. James: Well then. What's the, what's the soul? What's this soul thing that's then hanging around? Where is it hanging around? What is it? Debbie: What does it do? James: …Do you think there's a reincarnation? Debbie: Yes. James: Like what, what are you, what are you, what is, you seem to have gleaned a lot of information from the afterlife – let us know what's going on! Debbie: Oh, look, I definitely do feel that we, that we do live on. And I'm… One of the things that I do is called psychometry. So from holding or touching something, it's like I can, I can see through my hands, kind of thing. So you can touch an inanimate object, like a piece of jewellery. You can use clothing, but we tend to wash it. But say I went to Scotland and touched the sacred stones and I could see back into the past by touching that or just being in a historical site. And a lot of people might go to say a battle site or something, and they will feel that energy of sadness or, you know, or it might be a happy place, but you know, we tend to, we feel that. So I do feel that that energy does exist. But from my own personal experience, I did, you know, I've had past-life experiences, and one thing I did, I've been under hypnosis quite a lot of times with the police, but I did it to contact someone for a case, but it ended up, it took me back. So I had a past life and it was, I think unless I had my own proof, I would think, you know, I need to see-it-to-believe-it kind of thing. You know, I have seen things happen and even like children coming through and they know all about their great grandfather who they got their middle name or something so they can talk about them. James: Bianca, you're a science writer, you know, you edit science journals. Science, you know – Debbie, you know, this is just rubbish? Is there, is there, is there much science around this? Do scientists tend to just, you know, poo-poo this stuff? Bianca: It's funny. I always think of that, is it that line from Hamlet, there are greater things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy. And even though I, you know, I come from a very, I guess, Western scientific paradigm, both of my parents were doctors, I do also, you know, I would define myself as agnostic. I do have a sense that there is something greater than what we, you know, what exists in this mortal sphere that we find ourselves in. And in some ways, I don't know that it's the place of science to explore that. I think, I mean, certainly with the existing knowledge and technologies we have. We have no way of necessarily studying this. I mean, what we can do, you know, when we talk about near-death experiences… and, you know, I know that there's been studies looking at using, for example, functional magnetic resonance imaging, which is a kind of imaging where you can look at blood flow in the brain; you can look at areas of brain activity. The problem is, you know, that'd be great to study someone having a near-death experience, but how do you get those unique circumstances to happen? James: Yes. Can you have one at 10am tomorrow! Bianca: How do we schedule one? I mean, you know, maybe you could put someone into an induced coma, but I mean, there's obviously ethical challenges with doing that. There are… We do understand there are parts of the brain that, when kind of stimulated, can generate these kind of ‘sense of the numinous’, a sense of a feeling of other worldliness that our, you know… I mean, we are experiencing these things in this body, there will be things that are going on in our brain, that contribute to those emotions that contribute to those sensations. But whether we can say this is, whether I can say, I don't know, personally, this is purely a function of electrical impulses and neurotransmitters? I can't say that. I can't say yes or no. And I don't think science has the capacity to say yes or no. I think because so much of this is belief, it is faith, which is not to say that it doesn't exist in the same way that, you know, just because someone is mentally ill, that doesn't mean that it's not real. It is real. It is real in every facet that would define realness just because we can't measure it, doesn't mean it's not real. But at the moment we can't measure it. James: But Debbie, like you said a couple of times, you know, you can use electromagnetic something or another to measure presence and you can take photos and stuff. You would say actually there is science or there is evidence. Debbie: Yeah, there is, I think. James: What's that evidence? Debbie: Yeah, well, getting the images, I think that's part of it, but I also see when some of it's the communication with the other side, and the proof of what that person in spirit will come through and say that someone like myself wouldn't know that I can relay that to someone, you know. James: Give me an example, what happened? Debbie: I have a client that I've seen quite a number of times now. He came to see me about his father and he had this little toy bulldog that his dad had given him when he was a little boy. And the whole time, I didn't know about the dad, I just said, you know, I'm seeing your dad and your dad had a heart attack and he's really worried about you. And he said, Oh yeah, you're going deep sea fishing or going fishing soon, but he's telling me you can't go. And he said, I don't know, I don't know what you're talking about. I said, he's telling me there's something wrong with your heart. And I could suddenly see into his heart and I could see there was these three blockages. So there was two on the front, one in the back. And I don't propose to be a medical person at all, but I was just relaying what I saw. And I said, have you been having any heart problems? He said, no, no, I'm all good – and his wife's a nurse. And I said, look, your dad just wants you to get checked out. And his dad had died of a heart attack. Anyway, I must've said it to him about 20 times in the reading. He says, Oh, for goodness sakes, you just stop it. And then he rang me a week later and he said, well, I humored you. And he said, I'm not going on the fishing trip now. I'm in hospital. And they gave him three stints. And one of the blockages was the Widowmaker. And so his father had come from the other side to save his son, you know, and a few times now he sort of said, Oh, have I got any blockages? And another time I'd seen two more and he's, he had two more subsequently. But, yeah, it's funny. If they were nice before they pass, they can be nice when they go to the other side, but other times they can be horrible. Like, you know, I had a lady who suffered really badly with fibromyalgia. And her mother came through, through in the reading, and she said, I don't want her here. I hate my mother. She's horrible, make her go away. And I said, well, you brought her with you. I can't. And anyway, the mother just kept persisting. And I said, look, just listen to what I have to say, she wants to tell you she's sorry and acknowledges how unpleasant she was to you. And you do what you want to do with it, but you know, I'm just going to pass the message on and then maybe she'll be quiet. Anyway, I told her the message and I saw her about a month later, I ran into her at Cronulla, and she said, you won't believe, since I had that reading, I haven't been sick. And she said, I'm finally well. And I said, well, maybe all of that stress was, you know, affecting your health. Bianca: It's interesting because fibromyalgia, there's much higher incidents in people who've experienced childhood abuse. James: Oh! Debbie: Oh well, there you go. James: Yeah. Bianca: Yeah. James: It's not. All the time, as you walk down the street, as you're driving the car? Debbie: Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes, you know, those roadside memorials can be quite challenging because the person's still standing there, you know, and I think that… Bianca: …that’s very Sixth Sense! Debbie: … so yeah, that can make it hard or you can go into an historical location and you know, you might see someone hanging in from the ceiling and things like that. So people think it's all rosy and fun and happy; it's always pretty busy. Bianca: That's the thing, isn't it? We so desperately want to communicate… Debbie: …we do… Bianca: …with the people we've lost. Like, it's such a deep-seated need. I don't think there's anybody that wouldn't want, couldn't think of someone that they would want to just say, I miss you. I love you. You know, what should I do? It's incredible. Debbie: Yeah. And I think, I think the thing is we always, we all want proof. We all hope there's something more. It's just, it's a hard thing because unless you have your own experience, I'm not someone who wants to change everybody's mind. I think you need to have your own experience so that you have your own understanding and then you make your own decision. James: If there's a spectrum of sensitivity in this kind of way, then you're at one end, I am at the other. Like, I am zero for any sense of spirituality, other sideness, afterlife, nothing. Like I am just zero. Where would you sit, Bianca? Bianca: Um, well, it's hard to know how much is wishful thinking, for me. I mean, I didn't grow up in a religious household, I don't subscribe to any religion. As I said, agnostic. I think I would like to think… James: Have you ever had any moment? Like I have never had a single moment that says to me either, there's God, or there's anything, or there's any spirit, which doesn't mean I'm skeptical of your experience. Like, there's lots of other things I haven't experienced either, you know what I mean? Like, I've grown old enough to understand that! But it's like, I'm fascinated by you, to be quivering like a reed in the wind, but this sort of thing, where I'm just sort of, I'm just a buried stump. Bianca: You're a brick! I have never had any experience that I couldn't explain as being merely a product of my emotions and wishful thinking. You know, I had two wonderful grandmas who were both very different and who I adored and I like to think, you know, there are some moments that I've had where, you know, I've been really upset by something and I sort of, you know, I like to feel that they're there. I draw comfort from the sense of them not watching over me – because that just sounds gross – but just, you know, they are there. And, you know, I was talking to my son about this last night and, you know, when people die, my view is when people die, they live on in us. I mean, it's so trite, it's so Hollywood, but they do, you know, I think often about my two, my Onya and my Nan, you know, I imagine what they would think of my kids who they never met, for example, or what, you know, what they would do in this situation. So they're very much alive in some way, in my heart – God, it sounds like I'm writing a film; it's a Hallmark card – but it's, yeah, I would say there is nothing I have ever experienced that would be anything like what you experience. And again, I'm not to say that those things aren't real. It's again, not been my experience that wasn't just a function of love and grief. James: Writing a book on death. How has that left you? How's that, how's that altered your feelings about death? What is your relationship to death now? Bianca: It made me less afraid of dying, in the sense of it being an end of life. I mean, who knows how it will happen, but it made me less frightened of what that's going to be like. Because that was initially what prompted the book, I was with my nan about half an hour before she died and she was clearly dying, she wasn't, she was unconscious. And you know, I was in the room with my cousins and sort of left there thinking, I wonder what that was like for her. What is she going through? Was she in pain? Could she hear us? So really the book was an attempt to answer those questions. So having done that, there were many aspects that I think, yeah, you know, it's probably not the most fun thing. I think there was one palliative care doctor who said, look, it's probably like the worst flu and hangover you've ever experienced. Well, you know what? I've had the flu and I've had some pretty horrendous hangovers. So if that's it, I can deal with that. I think for me, the fear around death is leaving my children and my husband. And I know that they would go on and be fine, they would cope, but it's the idea of them growing up without me and me not being there when they grow up, that scares me. But you know, they're getting older and I sort of, I'm more of the view that, okay, you know what? If I was to depart for whatever reason at this point in my life, I know they’d be okay. And so the fear for me is lessening as I get older. And I've had a good life. So, you know, I see that with my dad, he's had a good life, he's outlived a whole lot of, you know, his historical ancestors, and he's got a great kind of collection of kids and grandkids. So, yeah, I think I am content with my life. So it holds fewer fears for me now. James: What's your relationship to death, Debbie? Debbie: I'm not frightened at all to pass, but I think the most important thing for me is to create memories while I'm here, because I believe that we leave our memories behind with our loved ones, and then we also take them with us when we go to the other side. You know, and I think it's nice to have those thoughts. And you know, we do have these experiences with our loved ones around us. We have them every day and a lot of us take it for granted. We've got the six, I'm sorry, we've got eight psychic senses, but we've got the five normal senses, but they actually work and coincide with it. And there's one called ‘clairalience’, where we smell things. So sometimes you might smell grandma's perfume or you might smell someone's smoke, and there's no one around, and you go, that's my imagination. But that's actually one of the psychic ‘clairs’. You know, we can have ‘clair’ touch, when we touch something, and we feel something from it. You might be touching grandma's watch or, you know, and we get a memory from that. You know, the smells, the sounds – we get sounds through the music or their voices. Or you have visions, there's so many different things. And we get it in our hearts. So clairempathy and clairsentience, those gut feelings that something's wrong. When you were talking to me before and asking me, was there anything there, there was a big whoosh of sort of cold energy that sort of appeared in the room, and then it's gone again James: That’d be me! Debbie: [laughter] But I think, for me, I'm not frightened of death. I'm the same as you; it's leaving your children behind and knowing they'll be all right, but also wanting them to know, we want them to know that our love lives on. I think that's the important thing and how loved they are. James: Could you die tomorrow? Debbie: Yeah, I could. Yeah, I had a really, the last really big near-death experience was in 2018. I was falsely diagnosed with carcinoid lymphoma and I was told I probably only had six months to live. And I was going through all the tests, getting, you know, lung washes and, you know, gastroscopes to see where the cancer had been. And then finally they gave me a PET scan and I didn't know… I'm allergic to a lot of things. Anyway, I had the PET, had the injection, was fine. They stuck me in a dark room. Next thing you know, I felt myself coming out of the chair, went above the earth and it was like, again, I was above the earth. So it seems to be for me, that's part of the story. But then I felt these like angelic beings around me and they kind of calm me down cause I could feel my heart going. Because after the injection, I could feel the burning go from my arm up into my brain, I felt my brain was on fire, went to my feet and then came back, and I just thought, I'm going, and I just thought, this is it. And then a nurse came in because they put me in a dark room, just left me. And then, I rang the buzzer, no one came. Anyway, the nurse came in and said, are you all right? And I said, no. And she said, just drink this. And she walked off and I was like, oh, okay. Then they put me in and I had the CAT scan and the guy was – cause they'd rushed me in, so I was a late Friday night one – and the guy sort of had a go at me afterwards. And he says, well, that was a waste of time. You've wasted my time. And I was like. What? And he says, there's nothing wrong with you. What are you here for? And it was like, it was just really weird. And then he sort of turned everything off and I had to find my way down three floors because I couldn't see properly because of the injection. And I was really sick for about three weeks and couldn't see properly. And then after that, it all came back normal. So I don't know what happened, but I'm pretty grateful for that. But yeah, I figure I might only have two more goes like a cat, so I'm just going to make the most of what I've got! Bianca: Yeah, yeah. James: Probably wise, yeah. Try and land on your paws. What a fascinating conversation. I'm very hopeful that all of us, you know, are not going to die tomorrow, or anywhere soon, anytime soon. But yeah, fantastic to investigate all of this with you. And thank you so much for being part of Life's Booming. Bianca and Debbie: Thanks for having us… for having us on. James: Thanks to our guests, Bianca Nogrady and Debbie Malone. You've been listening to season six of Life's Booming, Dying to Know, brought to you by Australian Seniors. Please, leave a review or tell someone about it. Head to seniors.com.au/podcast for more episodes. May your life, and your afterlife, be booming. I'm James Valentine. ENDSSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

LIFE’S BOOMING SERIES 6: Dying to Know Episode 6: Finding the funny side Many of us are embracing more humour following the death of a loved one. But how do we make space for laughter without feeling like we’re getting it wrong? Comedian Michelle Brasier and grief counsellor Marianne Bowdler share their experiences. About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors. Join James Valentine for the sixth season of Life’s Booming: Dying to Know, our most unflinching yet. We’ll have the conversations that are hardest to have, ask the questions that are easy to ignore, and hear stories that will make you think differently about the one thing we’re all guaranteed to experience: Death. In this episode, we explore the psychology behind our fear of death and how humour can help us face it. From heartfelt eulogies that land a laugh to finding the line between lightness and respect, we look at how Australians are using comedy to cope, connect and heal. Michelle Brasier is an award-winning comedian, writer and performer known for her sharp wit, musical talent and deeply personal storytelling. After losing both her father and brother to cancer, Michelle channelled her grief into her stage show Average Bear (on ABC iview), and book My Brother's Ashes are in a Sandwich Bag, which blend humour, vulnerability and hope. Marianne Bowdler is the clinical services manager at Griefline, where she supports Australians experiencing grief, loss and trauma. She draws on years of experience to explain how laughter, when used thoughtfully, can offer relief, connection and healing. If you have any thoughts or questions and want to share your story to Life’s Booming, send us a voice note – lifesbooming@seniors.com.au Watch Life’s Booming on YouTube Listen to Life's Booming on Apple Podcasts Listen to Life's Booming on Spotify For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency, in conjunction with Ampel Sonic Experience Agency -- Disclaimer: Please be advised that this episode contains discussions about death, which may be triggering or upsetting for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. If you are struggling with the loss of a loved one, please know that you are not alone and there are resources available. For additional support please contact Lifeline on 131 114 or Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636. TRANSCRIPT: S06EP06 Finding the funny side James: Hello and welcome to Life's Booming. I'm James Valentine and this season we're talking about death, but it's not all doom and gloom. On this episode we're going to embrace the funny side of grief. Forty-seven percent of the over 50s want to embrace more humor following the death of a loved one, according to an Australian senior's cost of death report. Helping us navigate this somewhat confusing terrain are two women who've built their careers around talking about death in very different ways. Marianne Bowdler is a grief counsellor and clinical services manager at Griefline, who's worked extensively supporting marginalised communities through bereavement, attachment and loss. And Michelle Brasier is a comedian, writer and actor. Her frank and fearless brand of cabaret comedy has never made death funnier and has taken her all the way to Broadway. Marianne, Michelle, welcome to Life's Booming. James: What's Griefline? Who calls? Marianne: Griefline, we interpret grief very broadly. So grief is any response to a loss. So we lose lots of things, don't we? Might be, you see a house flooding down the river after a flood, could be redundancy, could be bankruptcy, might've lost your keys, the dog might've gone missing, so anything. James: Do people think to call you in that sort of thing? Marianne: More and more they do, more and more, and also ecological grief, which is that kind of nostalgia that we have for how the climate used to be. Michelle: Oh no. Right. Yeah, right. Marianne: And the landscape that was. And the beach that used to be at Byron. James: Yeah, so it's sort of an existential grief. Marianne: Grief is existential. James: Yeah, yeah. And then what, what can you offer? What happens when I call? Marianne: It's that annoying concept, isn't it? We hold space. It's about listening without judgment. And it's about enabling people to actually shine a torch into the darkness of the sorrow and the anguish that they might be experiencing. James: Yeah. Marianne: I mean, I think a lot of times you might be a young mom and you can't really be grieving because you've got to look after the kids. There's lots of times when you can't express your grief and it's quite helpful to be able to talk to a neutral third party who can be supportive. James: Yeah. There'd be cultural issues as well in some cases. Yes. And who's on the end of the line, like who's listening? Marianne: Our lovely band of volunteers. Yeah. So we have hundreds of volunteers and oftentimes it's someone who's been through a significant grief experience and therefore they know what it's like and they want to support somebody else. Or it might be students who are trying to learn something a bit beyond psychology, a bit more about existential things. James: Yeah. Michelle: Hmm. James: Michelle, you know about grief? Michelle: I know about grief. I'm an old hat at grief for such a young dog. I, yeah, I talk about this publicly all the time, but to do a little recap, we talk about this all the time. You and I, but I, my father was diagnosed when I was 18, with cancer and he died a week later. And shortly after that, my brother was diagnosed with a similar cancer and he died a few months later. And, I am now… assumed Lynch syndrome, which is a genetic… what's the word I'm looking for? Mutation. Yeah. Predisposition. It's a predisposition, to certain types of cancers. and so I'm always being poked and prodded and things, and getting things, you know, cut out, and early intervention, which is really lovely, but it means that grief has become a good friend of mine. And I make shows about all kinds of things, but one of my most successful shows, that you can watch on ABC iView that became my book, is called Average Bear. And it's about, it's about grief, but it's also about hope. And I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that grief is always a bad thing. And I think that it's a really wonderful way through something in a really wonderful way to honour something. So I try to make shows that are funny about things that are sad. James: Yeah. What did you even know of grief? I mean, there you are, 18, 19 years old. I mean, I'm thinking of 18, 19-year-old me. I wouldn't have had a clue. I would never even know what it was. Michelle: I didn't know anything. I mean, I hadn't, my nan had passed away, but she'd had Alzheimer's for my whole life. And she died when I was quite young, oo I didn't really have any experience of grief except the dog. And even the dog, I had been told had gone to the farm, classic. James: Right. Michelle:And I truly thought that the dog had gone to the farm until I was about 26. And I went, Oh no! [laughter] But yeah, so I hadn't really had any, any life experience of grief. I hadn't really had any life experience at all. I mean, of course, I think, you know, it really hit me in the face. I had just gotten out of hospital myself cause I'd been in a fire, and had had third degree burns and had to learn to walk again. And I was surrounded by a lot of grief there, but I didn't know it was right around the corner for me. I saw people lose people all the time. And I was, you know, starting to wise up that maybe the world wasn't quite so simple, but when I lost my dad so fast, grief became a very fast, you know, friend and a big element of my life and something I was so interested in, because my friends weren't going through it. It was very strange. I think when you're young and you lose somebody. If you are the first one in your friendship group, it can be really isolating or you can choose to, you know, oh yeah. Make it a place of fun. Marianne: It’s like you joined a club you didn't want to… Michelle: …the Dead Dad Club, as I call it. Yeah, yeah. James: Yeah, yeah. But you had no prep for it. I mean, it'd be something if you had cancer for a few years.. Michelle:…Yeah. James: You know, you'd, you'd have a chance to talk to you your mother about it, everybody about it, start to realise this was going to happen. You know, it must have been just like some, it'd be like a disease itself, wouldn't it? Michelle: Well, it is. I mean, I think it just happens when it does happen so fast like that, it was an assault on the senses. And I have a chapter in my book that's called ‘the actual stages of grief’ because that's how I've experienced it. And I talk about how the world becomes small, like the world just closes in and you find yourself, you know, just assaulted by all these ideas and they don't feel real until you finally eat a piece of pizza again. And, you know, I think it, it was a really fast introduction into perspective and a really quick, life lesson in being curious and trying to open yourself up to as many experiences as you can because you don't know how long you have. And I mean, dad was just that, that was the canary in the coalmine. I didn't know it was going to lead to my brother and all the, you know, we didn't realise it was like a first domino. I was like, Oh, this is the bad thing that happens in my life. It didn't feel like a marker, but now it's very clear that that was the point where my life changed and continued to sort of tumble on down. But I'm still really grateful for, you know, the things that I've learned from grief and the way that I've learned to, to honour people. James: Yeah. Marianne, can we prepare for grief? I mean, is it something that, it should be something that's part of all of our lives that we think about what this might mean, or is it just something that you, you're going to have to experience it when it happens? Marianne: It's spectacularly unhelpful to say the dog's gone to the farm. James: Yes. [laughter] Michelle: Mum? Are you listening?! James: But I suppose that's not a bad place to start, is it? People often feel like having the guinea pig or the dog is a good way to teach children about death. Marianne: Exactly. And it's, how do you have those conversations? I think very little children are quite interested and curious about death because you find like a dead beetle or a dead bee and you're like: what is life that now has departed from this dead beetle or what have you. And it sort of disappears for a bit and then it comes back in the teenage years where you can get, you know, very emo and nihilistic and want to get skulls and crossbones tattooed. James: Grandma dies when you're a teenager. Marianne: …yeah… James: …That's not uncommon. That's about the age. Marianne: And I think it's more helpful now because we tend to take the children to the funeral. Whereas back in the day when children were really excluded from any of the processes around death, or even from going to visit grandma in hospital, we don't want your memory of her to be with all the tubes and what have you. And then it's just not real. And you try and explain to your young child and they're like, Yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. But is she coming to my birthday? James: Yeah. Marianne: There's that sort of, you didn't quite get it. James: But I feel like that's, that's, that's learning about death, not necessarily about grief. Grief is what you're going to feel, that, you know, grief is the price we pay for love or grief is, you know, when you're still trying to love, but the person isn't there. Like those are the things you can't know that until it's your mum that dies or your wife that dies. Right. Marianne: Well, I think literature can help, we, you know, develop our empathy from reading, but really nothing prepares you till you go through it. Michelle: I think even the grief of losing a relationship can be really hard. Any grief, your first experience of grief, and I think it's just wonderful to have someone on the other side of it who can say, I went through it. Here's how it felt. Here's what the aftermath was like. Here's what it was like when all the flowers died and people stopped bringing lasagna and they forgot that I was grieving and they moved on. Here's what that pocket is like, and here's what it's like five years after. And here's what it's like 10 years after. And that's what I think the stories bring in value is going, Hey, it's fine. And here it is. And I survived and here's how. Day to day, here's how. I think that's really beautiful because I remember just going, how am I ever going to be okay? How is this going to be okay? And calling people that I knew that were older than me who had lost people and saying, can you just please tell me it's going to be okay and tell me why and tell me examples of how it's okay. Marianne: And then the only downside of that is that you can get this sort of narrative of this is the way to grieve. And then what we hear are many stories that people have different ways of grieving. James: Yeah. Marianne: Yeah. It's not, not everybody, like when I grieve, I kind of cry a river and then get a headache. James: Right. Marianne: Wish that weren't true, but that's, that's just it, but not everybody does that. James: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this was this, you know, Elizabeth Kübler Ross was very popular and talked about for many years with the seven stages of, of grieving, but there is no fixed… you might be angry for a minute, you might be angry for a week, you know, like there's nothing fixed about it, is it? The duration, neither the duration nor the order. Marianne: Exactly. And you might feel all the emotions all at the same time. James: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Michelle: Or none of them. Marianne: Or none of them. Michelle: And that's something that a lot of people don't talk about as well. James: Yeah. Michelle: You might feel just numb for quite a time, and that's okay. Like there's nothing wrong with that. It is, it is an interesting thing to go through, but such a beautiful and human thing. I mean, I love how we make meaning of things that aren't necessarily meaningful as, as people. And I think that's how we add value to our lives. And honour those who have died, but yeah… James: When you say that, what do you, do you mean we will make meaning out of; do you mean we're making meaning out of grief because grief is very meaningful, isn't it? Michelle: Well, just meaning out of the little things. So like taking control of your story, and I suppose this is my experience, but I always tell the story of my, when my father was dying and he had been diagnosed with cancer and I had just learned to walk again and got out of the hospital. And I had this feeling that I should go home to my country town where my dad lived. I was just like, I just feel like I should go. I feel like something's gone wrong because they'd said to us, there'll be another Christmas, which is another thing you go, okay, and that's a bargain. You go, okay, all right, great. I'll be at least another Christmas. And I had this feeling in the middle of the night that we weren't gonna get another Christmas, and then I, we weren't gonna get another 24 hours. And I got in the car and I drove, and my brother called me in the middle of the night and said, I've, you know, I've just gotten back to Wagga. We've booked you on the first flight. Dad's asking for you. He's not good. And I was like, you can cancel the flight, I'm in Albury, I'm an hour away. I just knew. And I'm not religious. I'm not, you know, I don't necessarily think I'm super spiritual or anything like that, but I make meaning where there is none in that I felt I had to be there. And so I was there. And when I say there is none, it's because I would have been on the first flight in the morning anyway, and I would have seen him and I would have got to say goodbye anyway. But there is so much beauty and poetry in driving through the night because I had a feeling and it could have meant nothing. It could, he could have not gone and he did. He went the next day. But that's where we put meaning, you know, as somebody who's not religious, I can see the value of religion and the value of faith and going, Well, I don't have necessarily religion or faith, but I have this meaning in stories, you know, it's that it's the meaning and then the humor that undercuts all that meaning. And I think that's what makes it human. And that's what makes it special. James: Yeah. Marianne, you know, perhaps we can only learn to grieve when it happens to us. We could learn, we could all learn to deal with other people's grief, right? As a society, are we well equipped with dealing with the grieving? Marianne: Kind of saying, no. James: Well, something we'll leave in question. Michelle: So polite of you. Marianne: Yes. Because our statutory bereavement leave is only two days. Michelle: Is it? Yeah. I don't have a real job, so I don't know these things. Marianne: Yeah. So that's not. Michelle: Two days? Marianne: Two days. And so workplaces struggle to know how to support people. We do trainings for like work, you know, how to support your colleagues, how to support the teammates, how to cope in the office. A lot of, there's a lot of interest because people just like, we don't know, we don't know how to support the team. James: So, you know, I'd struggle to know whether to say something or not. I didn't, probably don't want this mentioned in the workplace, but then I should have said something and then it's all too late. Michelle: But I don't think it's ever too late. And I think that it's the struggle that's about you. It's not about the person who's grieving and you can go to a person and just say, Hey, Would you like to talk about this, or would you like to leave it? That's not going to make a person cry, and if it is, they're so close to crying that they're going to cry anyway, and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with crying. We sort of want to just hold it. It's a Britishness in us, I think. We just want to hold these emotions in. I just think we can't treat people who are grieving, or who are dying for that matter, with cotton gloves, we can't, you know, and that's why I make these shows for people to come and laugh. And I have so many audience members who are actively dying and they come and they're like, tonight might be the night. Let's go. I was like, yes, like, let's have a laugh. If you only have 24 hours left, the least I can do is give you a laugh. Like, I think that we need to invite people into grief and into dying. And, you know, it's the problem with our society is that we go, Ooh, and, you know, people who are dying so often – and I'm sure maybe you even have this experience – but people get diagnosed with cancer and people just back off because they don't want to say the wrong thing. People aren't going to be upset with you for saying the wrong thing. They're going to be upset with you for disappearing in that tiny little period where they needed you the most. You'll get it wrong and that's fine. They'll tell you how to do it right. And you'll fix it like an adult, grow up. James: That is a fundamental thing, isn't it? We're too scared of getting it wrong. I'm sorry for your loss. Oh God. Was that terrible thing to say? Like maybe, maybe it is a terrible thing to say, but it's better than not saying anything. Marianne: Or, or in the workplace, where everybody's looking at the children's photos from the holiday and then the colleague whose child died. And the colleague will say, you know, I think about my child every moment of every day. It's not like you've done something to remind me. I'm fully aware. Michelle: Yeah. I know my kid is dead. Yeah. I don't need you to remind me. I know. It's okay. I already know. Marianne: And the best things you can just say is, I've got your back. James: Mm. But I suppose this is the kind of thing we could all help one another with, isn't it? Yeah. This, this could, we could be, we could all be a little more instructed in this. Marianne: And I think there were, perhaps if you look at the like English, Victorian tradition, it's like now they're wearing black. Now they've got a little bit of purple. Now they've got jet jewelry. There were all these signifiers that let us know how far, you know, how long ago the mourning process started, we don't know anything, we can't tell by looking at a person, what happened last week, what happened 10 years ago. Michelle: yeah. James: Does humor help? Marianne: Absolutely. We would look at the distress, if you're just going to go a bit sciencey, the distress that you experience in grief is called situational distress. You know, a thing happened, then you got distressed. And part of that would be a very low mood, for example. If you do nothing to break the low mood, that can run into depression and that can run into a major depressive But the best thing that will kind of, it doesn't take away the distress exactly, but it ruptures that, is comedy, is having a laugh, because it alleviates the mood, it alleviates the tension, you feel more connected and certainly in a comedy show, you just feel connected to everybody else in the room. Michelle:Yeah. James: And you, you went, I mean, you went to it – it is you, isn't it? I mean, I'm the same. I tend to talk in humor. You know, that's my tone. My predominant tone is to try and be funny. And so therefore, whatever happens, you know, I had cancer. I was automatically making jokes about it. I still do, you know. So you, but is it more than that? Is it more than just your way of speaking, your way of being? Michelle: I think it, yeah, I think it is, you know, that second nature. You can't, if you're a clown, you're a clown, you can't turn it off and you shouldn't turn it off unless you want to. But I also, back on the sciencey stuff, you know, there, there is such a similar physiological response that we have to crying as we do when we're laughing or when we're singing. It's just, it's our release, it's, you know, all this vagus nerve stuff, just getting it out. A release is so valuable. And if that release can be laughter, you're not going to get a headache, as quickly as you will with the, with the tears and show it, maybe it comes along with the tears and maybe they're, they need to be friends and they need to, you know, be together. Um, and you know… Marianne: …it's the catharsis Michelle: It's the catharsis and we need it as, as animals, we need it. So I think that's why it's so… James: It's also the truth as well. Like, I think, you know, some of the best laughs you'll have is at a funeral. Michelle: Oh my God, yeah. James: Because you will tell each other truths about the person and about your relationship to them, and somebody will start telling you a story and you'll go, Oh my God, they never told the story like that. You know, like… Michelle: …Yes, exactly. James:…All those sort of things. It's fantastic, you know. It's the, you know, humour is often truth telling. Michelle: And the reason it's so funny is because it breaks the tension of this wild ritual of funerals that we have, that is, it doesn't really suit us as a society. It's somebody speaking on a microphone that doesn't really work and they don't know how to use the microphone. They're making a speech. They're not a good speech writer. They shouldn't be making a speech. Somebody else should be making a speech. It's never going well. And that's kind of funny. My dad's funeral was excellent. He went, he'd made, we'd made this playlist of his favorite songs for him to be carried out of the church too. Unfortunately, there was like a bit of a mix up and that playlist didn't play when he was carried out of the church. It played as he was lowered into the ground in the cemetery, which would have been fine had the first song not been ‘Ring of Fire’ by Johnny Cash. And it was the funniest thing that's ever happened in my family was in hysterics. Everybody else taking it very seriously. Didn't know what to do. Didn't know how to touch it, trying to keep it away. But the rest of us, the ones who really, really knew him and really loved him were in there having a laugh because it was like, this is absurd. James: He would have loved it. Michelle: He would have loved it. And death is absurd. And so is life, and that's fine. You know, I think we just need to go gentle with ourselves and with the people that we're trying to help, but gentle with ourselves in our own approach to it, you know, let yourself have a laugh, you deserve it, it's hard. James: Yeah. I sometimes think that death is the ultimate joke because we, we live like it's never going to happen. So here’s, all of us live every single day as though we are never going to die. How do you think people react to you, you know, like, I'm thinking of, you know, ‘Lasagna won't bring back my dead dad’, your famous song about the fact that, you know, while grieving you'll get a lot of, a lot of lasagna. Michelle: Yeah. James: How do people react? Like, have you had people just go, this is too much, I can't, I can't deal with this. Michelle: I've never had that reaction. And I've done the show so many times, people have watched it on TV and I've never gotten a DM saying this is rude or this is wrong, you know, disrespectful. It's always the people in the show, like the people who have grieved that think it's the funniest. I even say after I do the song in the show, I say if somebody next to you is laughing quite loudly at that, I'd like you to turn to them and say sorry for your loss.. James: Yeah. Michelle: Because that's, you know, it is, it's universal. It's so universal. Yeah. so no, I've never had somebody complain about me not taking death seriously enough. James: Has it helped you? Michelle: Yeah! James: Yeah. Michelle: If I didn't have humor, if I took myself seriously, I would be terrified every moment. I'm already terrified. Look at the news. Yeah. You know. Marianne: Don't look at the news. Michelle: Yeah. Sorry. That was bad advice. Don't look at the news. but do vote well. but I just think, you know. I don't know who I would be if I, if I took things seriously, if I took myself seriously, I would have such a difficult time and I'm already stressed about every lump and bump. And you know, it's, it's really scary. I'm scared of dying, but it means that I think I live my life like I am going to die tomorrow. And I, that's the gift that I've been given by grief, but I also… James: …and by your own diagnosis, I mean, we should just emphasise that again, you are living with the threat that the same thing that happened to your brother and father can happen to you. Michelle: Yes, exactly. And I think knowing that – even though everyone could be hit by a bus tomorrow and it really doesn't make me any more likely than anyone else at the end of the day – but it's a gift, it's a gift, the gift of perspective of knowing that like, you're only here for a short time, so you might as well make it a good time. And that's true of anyone. It doesn't matter if you live to a hundred, it's probably still going to feel short. Well, if you're lucky it’ll feel short. James: But that's, I mean, we kind of know that, but we don't really live like that, do we Marianne? Marianne: We don't, but there's good reason to think that we should. In the world of grief literature, we talk about the loss of the assumptive world. James: The assumptive world. Marianne: The assumptive world. As a child, we assumed it would always be a Sunday afternoon and we'd go home and have Tim Tams. And everything would be the same day after day. And then the first time you sort of meet death, it's like the rug’s been pulled out from under you and you can't assume that anymore. And then suddenly you're unsafe and you panic. But I think what's a curious moment for all of us was the pandemic gave the whole world and everybody, we all collectively lost the assumptive world at the same time. So now we're sort of on shakier ground. but when we come back to just each and every one of us, yes, I think it's helpful to understand that we are mortal. James: Yeah. Marianne: And when you get your head around that. Then you can, I think, fully be present in the moment and enjoy things. James: But that's always what a lot of people will say about the pandemic years is perhaps, particularly that first year, particularly if you weren't in Melbourne, but particularly that first year was sort of like, isn't this great? We're all living this together. We are all now understanding that we're very mortal and can be threatened. Oh my Lord, our governments are all working together, but it almost seems it's like, as soon as we could get over that and forget all that, we did. Marianne: Yeah, we did. Michelle: You know, I think we just, we're looking for someone to blame. I mean, not to get into that sort of existential divided society crisis that we're in currently, don't look at the news, but, yeah, COVID was interesting to see how people reacted to it, and the grief. I talk about this in my book as well. I say, I was born at the end of history because I was a 90s kid and they were calling it the end of history. They were like, the war is done. The wars are done. We're done doing the wars. We're doing peace now. We're smarter than that. We've sorted it out and you can be whatever you want to be. And this is before we knew my generation wasn't going to be able to afford a house. And we really were promised… and it's why I've been successful in my career. Cause my parents were like, yeah, I guess you can do whatever you want now. That's what they're saying. And I was like, well, I believe you, which I'm lucky I did and sort of followed my nose to where I've gotten. But I think there is an enormous amount of collective grief in every generation, but I think it really, like, hits my generation very hard because we, we can't believe we were lied to, like, you know! And I think we were feeling that, and then COVID came and I think everyone sort of started to feel that, but I mean everyone's different, has their own set of circumstances and I'm speaking very generally, but it is difficult. Marianne: But across the board, anxiety went up, especially of your generation. And some people would think that what lies underneath all anxiety is death anxiety. Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. I think that's really true. It's definitely my main anxiety, you know. James: Yeah. You know, we've been talking about grief as, you know, it's, it's something I suppose we probably always sort of these sort of emotions as something that define us, define humanity. That's what makes us human. We've had all those stories of sort of like elephants grieving and things, haven't we? Marianne: Yeah, absolutely. Or, and you see it with your pets as well, they'll go searching for the person who's not there. Michelle: Yeah, you should let your dog sniff a dead person, or the other dead dog. You should do that so they know what's happened. James: Yeah, yeah. Marianne: And last year I read that blue tongued lizards grieve, which I'm still very touched by that. Michelle: It's beautiful. Marianne: Yeah. It was a lizard was trapped on a fence and died and the mate just stayed with it for I think three or four days. James: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So everything does. Marianne: So not just mammals. James: Yeah, not just mammals, the cold-blooded ones do, too. Michelle: That's beautiful. Do you think mosquitoes are grieving? James: Oh, totally. Michelle: Got a lot to apologise for. James: Yeah, that's right. So, when you whack one, just go, sorry. Michelle: I know. I'm sorry. Sorry for your loss.. James: That's really sad. Marianne: That should cover it. Michelle: That should sort it. James: Marianne, thank you so much. Marianne: Thank you. Lovely conversation. Michelle, lovely. Thank you. Michelle: Thank you so much. James: Well, thanks to our guests, Marianne Bowdler and Michelle Brasier. You've been listening to season six of Life's Booming, Dying to Know, brought to you by Australian Seniors. Please leave a review or tell someone about it. Head to seniors.com.au/podcast for more episodes. May your life be booming. I'm James Valentine.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Maroon 5 prépare activement la sortie de son huitième album studio, prévue pour l'été 2025. Cette annonce marque le retour du groupe après une pause de quatre ans depuis leur dernier album, Jordi, sorti en 2021 Le premier single de cet album, "Priceless", en collaboration avec Lisa du groupe sud-coréen BLACKPINK, est sorti vendredi. Ce morceau, reflète une volonté de renouer avec le son des débuts du groupe . James Valentine, guitariste du groupe, a exprimé son émotion en découvrant la démo, soulignant que cette chanson a défini l'orientation sonore du nouvel album. Pour accompagner la sortie de l'album, Maroon 5 prévoit une tournée mondiale à l'automne 2025, avec des concerts prévus en Europe et en Amérique latine . Bien que le titre de l'album n'ait pas encore été révélé, Adam Levine a évoqué... • La suite sur https://www.radiomelodie.com/podcasts/13185-maroon-5-de-retour-avec-un-nouveau-single-et-un-album-en-vue.html

With most people now preferring to focus on celebrating life rather than mourning at funerals, we explore the new ways people are choosing to commemorate loved ones, and hear first hand experience of what it's like to grieve in the public eye, with acclaimed author Blanche d’Alpuget, widow of former Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke, and experienced funeral and life celebrant Evelyn Calaunan. About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors. Join James Valentine for the sixth season of Life’s Booming: Dying to Know, our most unflinching yet. We’ll have the conversations that are hardest to have, ask the questions that are easy to ignore, and hear stories that will make you think differently about the one thing we’re all guaranteed to experience: Death. Featuring interviews with famous faces as well as experts in the space, we uncover what they know about what we can expect. There are hard truths, surprising discoveries, tears and even laughs. Nothing about death is off the table. Blanche d’Alpuget is an acclaimed Australian author and the widow of former Prime Minister Bob Hawke. In this episode, Blanche reflects on public and private rituals of mourning, what it means to say goodbye well, and how grief reshapes us. Her latest novel, The Bunny Club (her first murder mystery), is out now. Evelyn Calaunan is a celebrant who has conducted more than 600 ceremonies, including living funerals that are heartfelt gatherings held before death to honour a life while the person is still present. Drawing on her background in palliative care and community work, Evelyn helps individuals and families create ceremonies that are deeply personal. If you have any thoughts or questions and want to share your story to Life’s Booming, send us a voice note – lifesbooming@seniors.com.au Watch Life’s Booming on YouTube Listen to Life's Booming on Apple Podcasts Listen to Life's Booming on Spotify For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency, in conjunction with Ampel -- Disclaimer: Please be advised that this episode contains discussions about death, which may be triggering or upsetting for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. If you are struggling with the loss of a loved one, please know that you are not alone and there are resources available. For additional support please contact Lifeline on 131 114 or Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636. TRANSCRIPT: S06EP04 Going out with style James: Hi, I'm James Valentine. Welcome to Life's Booming. This season is Dying to Know. We're having the conversations that are often the hardest to have with people who've experienced life's one great certainty, death. It touches everyone, but how we honor our loved ones in death is changing, with most of us now preferring to focus on celebrating life rather than mourning at funerals. So in this episode, we explore some of the new ways people are choosing to commemorate life, as well as hearing first hand experience of what it's like to grieve in the public eye. Generously sharing their professional and personal stories are our guests. Evelyn Calaunan is an experienced celebrant who specialises in living funerals. And Blanche d’Alpuget is an acclaimed author and widow of former Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke. Evelyn Blanche, welcome to Life's Booming. Blanche: Oh, thank you, James. James: Evelyn, you describe yourself as an end of life celebrant. What exactly does that mean? What do you mean by end of life celebrant? Evelyn: So I've done, I've done ceremonies, as well. I used to be a wedding celebrant and I've married a few couples where one of the partners was diagnosed with a terminal illness, so I would do the ceremony and that turned out to be sort of a life celebration and they just wanted to marry before one of them died. And then I've done a ceremony where the person was actually dying and we did it. The end of life sort of life celebration for him. And he passed away, I think, 10 days after, after the ceremony. That's why I think it's, it's best just to celebrate life now, like have those milestone birthdays or whatever birthday number you're turning and have a great party now - why wait till you have a diagnosis or a terminal illness that's looming? So it's important to have those, those celebrations now. However, in saying that, sometimes people are diagnosed and like, ‘Oh God, I didn't have that party. So I want to have something now.’ I did do a life celebration for my girlfriend who was diagnosed with cancer. And I did a little bit of a ceremony and a ritual and I shared a poem and I was getting a bit too sad for everybody there - cause we were really… It was like a 70s party, we were all dressed up and enjoying each other's company. And then after a while we could tell people were really getting upset because of her diagnosis. And then she came on the microphone. She said, ‘Okay, okay. That's enough, Evelyn, let's go on to karaoke’, you know, so, yeah, It turned out to be a lovely celebration and she wanted to invite people there from all parts of her life and just be able to have a good party with them while she was still feeling well. James: Yeah Yeah Evelyn: And I've done about 600 end of life ceremonies. James: It just sounds like 600 sounds like a lot Evelyn: Yeah, but in the context of 17 years, that's really not. James: I think the thing that struck me about that number was, does it get routine? Evelyn: Not really. I mean a lot of the script is or the script that I have – I mean, there's only so many ways you can say I'd like to welcome everyone here today. So I'll write a ceremony and I might say, ‘Oh, you know, Joe Blow leaves behind his loving sister’, and then the parents will come back and say, ‘Please take loving out, they couldn't stand each other!’ So, you know, there's a lot of adjectives that are changed because I kind of make my ceremonies quite flowery and people like to change that and make it more real. So yeah. James: Blanche, you had the experience of, in a way, one of the biggest funerals and biggest moments of public grief in Australian life, the death of Bob Hawke and the funeral and memorial service of Bob Hawke. How much did you and Bob plan those events together? Blanche: Not at all. No, no. That was all left up to me. James: Right. So you planned those events. So my understanding is Bob knew he was dying, right? You knew it was, say, a year before, that kind of thing, you knew it was, it would, it must have been coming. Blanche: Well, you don't know exactly when. When he started dying, it just fell like an axe. It was very sudden, out of the blue, we were having dinner. And he was in a bad way. He was in a lot of pain from peripheral neuropathy, so he was on morphine tablets and the fentanyl patches. Obviously it was going to be at some stage, but suddenly we're having dinner and we finished dinner and he got up from dinner and he actually went into the living room and actually threw up and he was in enormous pain, suddenly. And he got on the floor and said, ‘Oh, it's unbearable. The pain's unbearable’. And I said to him, ‘Yes, Bob, you're dying.’ And that was, so that was the beginning. James: How did he take that? Like, how did he take his death? So the, the imminence of his death? Blanche: Well, he'd said all along, I have no fear of death. And I used to think all along, wait until you get there. [laughter] It's one thing, not fearing death. It's another thing fearing dying, and dying can be difficult. Being born is difficult, life is difficult, and dying can be difficult too. But then I think it's wonderful, when you actually… Because I believe in the spirit and the soul, and I've seen enough of people dying to be convinced of it, there's an absolutely uplifting feeling as, as it goes, as it leaves the body. James: What did he believe, particularly at that point? Blanche: I sort of badgered him with my ideas for 25 years, so [laughter]. He'd started off an agnostic and he was still probably agnostic, but when he died, he wasn't. I mean, I could see it on his face. He didn't say, ‘Oh my God, I can, I see heaven’. But there was such a heavenly look on his face. As I saw on my mother's face. James: What do you see, Evelyn, the difference between, do you see a difference between those who are dying and have belief and faith and those who don’t. How does that express itself? How do you see it play out? Evelyn: What I've seen or what I've experienced talking to families is that that they could see at the end that they, if they were quite sick, cause I always ask, I always ask my families, how was it the last few days? And they always say to me, that, you know, just about a few days before they died, they had this really lucid moment where they sat up and we had a really good conversation. And, and then a few days later, they passed away. And another thing that I actually really would like to share is that most of the families, they get really upset if their person hasn't passed in front of them. They're waiting for that moment. But I have found in all of the many funerals I've done, I would say about 80%, if not more, the loved one usually passes away when someone will just go out to the toilet or go… I've had to explain that to families because they're, they're so upset. Like, ‘you know, I was sat there, I slept on, by the side, the side of the bed of my mother, and I was holding her hand and I, I just had to go to the toilet. I come back and she died on me’ - you know, but it's so common. James: Why are you nodding Blanche? You heard this a lot too. Blanche: Oh yes, it's very well known that because the loved one is hanging on emotionally, psychologically to the one who's dying. And so, the dying one can't leave, and that has to grab the moment. Do you agree with the Evelyn? Evelyn: Yeah I definitely agree with that, and I've heard the stories too many times to not discount that, and I think at the end of life, I think we just kind of resort to being kind of like cats or dogs – you know how they go to a corner to die. I think we kind of are like that as well. James: Yeah. Did you, were you there with when Bob died? Blanche: Yep. Holding his hand. I'd done a very foolish thing before. I'd spent all day lying down beside him, and he had pneumonia, he developed pneumonia. And I had an appointment with an acupuncturist and I went to see her. She took my pulse, which is the first thing you do with acupuncture, and she said, What have you been doing? And I said, I've been lying down with Bob, he's dying. She said, You've got no pulses. You'll die. She said, You've given him all your life energy and you must stop. And you can only hold his hand. You mustn't touch any more of his body than that. And indeed, while I was lying down beside him, his breathing improved, his color came back, he started – he was, had morphine, so I was in a morphine sleep – but he just started to look good. And as soon as I just moved away from him, he went back into pneumonia and dying. James: Yeah. Did you see the moment? Blanche: Yeah. Oh yes. James: What was that? Blanche: It was marvelous. It was… He gave a huge sigh, and then I felt the room was full of angels. It was very, very uplifting. It was very thrilling. And the same thing with my mother actually. I was with her when she died. And it was so exciting, I wanted to ring her up immediately and say, Hey mum, guess what I just saw? James: She probably knows. She probably knew. What kind of descriptions do you hear of the moment? Evelyn: Yeah, I hear the same as well, that when they finally took their last breath, they just looked so peaceful and they looked without pain. But in saying that, because I am, I do the funerals like, you know, a few days after they die, a lot of things happen at the funerals too, like, you know, birds brushing up against the window when you mention their name. Or, you know, light fluttering in when you're doing a reflection. I've witnessed a lot of that or even electrics going out during certain motions and then someone will ring out, ‘Oh, that's mum, she always wanted to make a big scene, you know.’ So I've witnessed a lot of that to know that there is something beautiful, you know, beautiful on the other side. And I feel when their body is still here on, on the, on the plane, like that time from when they die to when the funeral, I feel there's, their essence is really all around us. And some of the essence does come out at the funeral and some of the things people say… yeah, it's just beautiful. James: It's a fusion, I suppose, like I'm feeling a sense of a fusion of a, of a spirit and whatever that might be, but also our huge consciousness of them. You know, there's so much consciousness all the way, there's suddenly, you know, sometimes hundreds, thousands of people will be thinking about this person and remembering, you know, that, that's also a life force in some ways, isn't it? Blanche: Yes. I remember at Bob's, at the private funeral, I had no idea what I was going to say. And suddenly I looked in my handbag and there was a piece of paper with a poem on it. And there was exactly the right thing. I hadn't seen the poem before, but it was exactly the right thing to read in the circumstances. James: Had someone popped it in there, or? Blanche: No. James: Mmm. Blanche: Weird. James: Weird. Blanche: I'm weird. [laughter] James: I suppose I wondered about the experience of grief when it's going to be that public. And I do, there's a public funeral, but there was also, there's an immediate, sorry, private funeral, but there's also an immediate public thing you've got to deal with, with media and with the nation learning all that kind of thing. Blanche: That was a nightmare, a real nightmare. I think I probably had a thousand emails and texts, for starters. And I was really grieving, really, really upset. So I'd go up shopping and burst into tears over the cauliflowers. [laughter] I haven’t got anything against cauliflower. And I didn't have a moment, really, to grieve properly. I mean, I had the odd moments, but it was so busy, once he died because of who he was, and everybody wanting a slice of the salami, basically. James: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How'd you handle it? Blanche: You just do James. When stuff gets thrown at you, you just handle it as best you can. Whether I did it well or ill, I don't know. James: And so then what, how did you handle your grief? Did you have to do that later? Blanche: Unfortunately. And I got… So the next year I got breast cancer. And I do think that was grief. James and Evelyn: Mm. Yeah. Blanche: He died in May, I moved out of the house in September, and I was diagnosed with breast cancer in February. James: Yeah. Yeah. That's too much, isn’t it Blanche: Well, it's life, you know, you just got to accept it. James: Because it seems sort of unimaginable, like just having to have so much to process, you've got a whole, there's a whole other complication… Blanche: …and people still come up to me. Almost six years later. And say, I wish he was still here. Yeah. That's quite common. Especially as we approach an election! [laughter] James: Well, yes, I could feel that too! And is that, is that a nice thing? Is it nice having, to be remembered like that? Blanche: Oh, yes, because it's all, it's always very civil and kind. Evelyn: And I think people feel like they know him, even though he wasn't, you know, their husband or father, they wanted a piece of him. And I think they wanted to fully grieve and honor his life. And that's why having that public funeral was very, was very necessary. Because I do think memorials, or anything, is necessary, even if you just for five minutes, it's like, let's just stop and think about whoever's past. We need that. We need that. And I've seen too often, in my… over the years, where a lady's past, was in her 80s, and what was going to be put in the coffin with her were ashes from her stillborn child. So she never did a ceremony for that. And I remember her husband was telling me, You know, she always talked about her stillborn. And they never knew what to do with the ashes. And so I think, if they would have had just a little bit of a ceremony honouring that child, or the stillbirth, that would have helped for them to go further. So we just need it, we just need moments to get together… James: Tell me more about why I think it's necessary. What, what, what is the… Because a lot of people will say this thing, ‘Look, cardboard box, put me out in the, put me out with the rubbish. You know, put me in the top paddock, let the crows have a go’, you know, like you get that sort of expression. But then you're, you know, what you're saying is it's very important, not even, not just for the person that's died, almost more for everybody else. Evelyn: I think funerals, end of life ceremonies, are really important for the people who are left behind. Like just us being together and honoring that person in a space and having this sort of energy directed towards this person that we love. But people, they don't want to have these ceremonies. And I don't, I don't know if it's an Australian thing, you know, cause I've heard that a lot, just put me out on the, you know, on the trash and I'll be, I'll be right, mate. But I think honoring that person is really important just for those who are left behind. James: Think it's Australian, a little bit Australian? Blanche: Yes, I do. And it's because we're so secular. James: Right. Blanche: I think. James: Well, I think a lot of the, a lot of the discussions we've been having here, or the point of these discussions in this, in this series has been because we've lost, you know, if half of us were Catholics and the other half were Anglicans and, you know, there were a few other sects alongside, that gave us the structures and gave us the ritual to the funerals. Whereas these discussions, a lot of it has been about, well, if you're not that, and that is an increasingly larger proportion of the population, well, what is it? What are you marking? Why, what is death? What is the funeral? What is the ceremony for? What, what's the funeral for? Blanche: The funeral is to celebrate the life. And I might say that although I want an, an, an inexpensive casket or coffin, I don't want a nothing funeral. I want ‘When the saints go marching in’, played at the end of it! James: it. Yes. Blanche: Fun. James: Yeah. Did Bob have much planning in the memorial? Did he think about that? Blanche: None. Unlike Gough [Whitlam]. Gough planned his funeral down to the last tea. Bob left it entirely to others. He didn't even think about it. James: Right. And what, what hand did you have in that? Was that something where it was hard to express perhaps your love because there's protocol, there's stuff that had to be done? Blanche: Oh, well, there were a number of formal speakers who had to be there, and I wasn't one of those. The one person representing the family was his eldest child, Sue, and then all the rest were pollies. James: And did it feel like you, did that feel like a memorial of Bob Hawke or the Bob Hawke you knew, or the Bob Hawke we knew? Blanche: It was the Bob Hawke the public knew. But there's also a lot of, as you were saying, a lot of information in that. Evelyn: Yeah. And, and I'd like to share this that, at a funeral, at least 80% of the guests there will find out something new about their person that they never knew. And we can all relate to that. So it's very common. And even sons and daughters, I've found, they know very little about their parents from before they were born. So, you know, they don't even know these basic sort of questions when you ask them. They'll know where they were married, but they don't know the basic questions. So I think there is a need to talk about, you know, talk about our lives more, not talk about death, but talk about our lives more so that our children, you know, know about our lives before, you know, death. James: I think it's one of the nice aspects of funeral is [to] find that relative you don't know very well and have a chat. So much will come out. Great stories will come out. And it will be those things like, What do you mean they did that after the war? What are you talking about? You know, because often they will never say it. How, Blanche, how do you think we should talk about death? Blanche: Positively. It's inevitable and, and therefore to be, not to be feared and, and shrunken away from, but to anticipate with a certain degree of excitement. Look, I think it's a great adventure, because we don't know what's going to happen afterwards. But if you have a positive attitude, it's really worth looking, looking forward to. James: Yeah, if you go in with the positive attitude, I think they'll be pleased to see you. There's that nice Blanche. Come on in, we’ll have you there! Where should we, where should we be talking about death? When should we talk about death, Evelyn? Evelyn: Well, I'm one of the very low percent percentage of people who actually enjoy talking about death and I've been doing funerals for such a long, long time, and I find something really interesting is that I feel I live my life really quite fully, because you never know what's going to happen around the corner. And I deal with all ages, you know, from just a baby to someone who's really old. But, you know, deal with suicides and people die in accidents. So I know that life is really quite brief, and is briefer than we even think, you know? And, uh, yeah, so I, uh, I don't know… what was the question? James: I mean, I think this picks up a little on what Blanche was saying about, you know, it's a secular society. It's an even more secular society than it ever was. We're even more removed from death than we ever were. Go back a few generations, you know… Blanche: And death was at home. James: Death was at home. Blanche: It's been medicalised. James: Exactly. It's been kept at home. You know, the body would be in the home. Children would die. You know, we're around death a lot more. So now it's separated from us and then we don't even talk about it. So, and I suppose I'm interested in sort of, when, you know, should it be in schools? O should we talk about it more? Do you talk to your parents about their funeral plans? Like, when should we talk about death? [00:22:36] Evelyn: I think we should bring it in as soon as possible because we have animals that die. We just need kids to know what it is to die. Grandparents who died and, you know, bring it, bring it in as soon as possible. In elementary school, high school or, you know, we just need to get that conversation going. Unfortunately, we only think about it when we're diagnosed with something or if we lose a loved one. We think about it then. We think life, we can live life infinitely, but then something happens. So I know it's probably not the topic that people want to talk about, but there can be something quite beautiful. Like when we start talking about our funeral songs, when we just start talking about our lives. I think it's, I think it's quite exciting. Blanche: I think it's exciting, too. But obviously for kids, it's when they're grandparents die - well sometimes they're already adults when their grandparents die - but if they're little kids, start talking then. James: Yeah. Well, you increasingly, like when my grand-, when my first grandmother died, I was maybe seven or eight or something like that, it was not done to take the children to the funeral. Blanche: That's right. James: The children were not to be going to the funeral. But now I think we do go, No, bring the children to the funeral. I think that's changed. Blanche: Yes. And I think that's positive. And especially if it's an uplifting funeral. James: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Or even if it's, even if it's not, I mean, children should experience that too, shouldn't they? They should understand the breadth of that emotion. Blanche: But whether it's uplifting or not doesn't depend on the nature of the death. James: No. Evelyn: I do think that sometimes when a person does die tragically, accident, or suicide or even murdered, there should be this, there should be like an authenticity about saying what happened, but really just the one sentence, because I know that you want to address the elephant in the room because people often say, Oh, God, how's she going to do this? So I often say, you know, there's no words of comfort, you know, that we can really say that, you know, she's died tragically and you do have to use the word died. She's died tragically, but that's not who she was. This was just an event that was, you know, just took her life. We're not going to focus on that. We're going to focus on, you know, what she loved to do, the music she loved, the people she loved. But I do think you do need to address that. You can't sugarcoat that. So sometimes celebrants and priests, they do make it all about the death, but I do think it is important to address the death, and be transparent about that. And then you focus on the celebration. James: I use the word died all the time too. Like I'm a daily radio broadcaster, when I’m remarking on people I say they died yesterday. They died. Blanche and Evelyn: Yeah. James: This person died. He passed, passed away. I don't like it. I didn't… Blanche: …Neither do I. James: They died. Died. Yeah. And it, it, it sort of seems to, I don't know, it makes it… Blanche: It's a euphemism, The euphemism sort of, I don't know, it takes away from the solemnity of the event, almost, and the significance… Blanche: I agree James: I think we were talking before about, we don't think people want to talk about death. I think people love talking about it. Like, and again, on the radio show, we do it quite often. People love it. You know, they write in, they're engaged. They want to talk about it. I did it to… I was with a friend the other night and for some reason it came up and I made the, I started talking about, you know, my beliefs or whatever. And you see the friend just suddenly stopped and went, Well, this is interesting. You know, like, this is better than just, How was the footy, you know… Blanche: I never thought of that! James: It sort of, the whole conversation, it sparked… we had a whole new level in the relationship… And I think that that's what these conversations are about, is hopefully they encourage, you know, other people listening to have, to talk about death. Blanche: And a positive attitude. James: Yeah. Evelyn, how have funerals changed? Yeah, perhaps even in the course of your 17 years, over the 600, but also, yeah, maybe getting to remember your grandmothers or something like that. How do you think funerals have changed? Evelyn: Well, funerals have definitely changed in the last few years, mainly because of COVID, and we're using technology more. And also what I've noticed as well is that there are people who will have a private cremation and then have a huge memorial, maybe not a week or two after, but maybe in a month or two after. So they're giving it a longer time to have, like, more of a bigger celebration of life. And, so my father died suddenly in 1997, and my mum was taking photos, and this was the camera, and I thought that was, I was so angry with her. James: Taking photos during the funeral? Evelyn: She was, taking the funeral, yeah. It was, she was really upsetting me. But I'm so glad she did because I cherish those photos. So I think it's become more mainstream for people to take photos of the coffins, even, you know, film, film the ceremony. It might not be livestream, but they'll film the ceremony. So that's actually been more, something that's been more in common. James: The video tribute is a, is often a big part. Now there'll be three or four minutes of photos and video. Blanche: Yeah, that's normal, isn't it? Evelyn: Yeah, that's normal. And I try not to have too many tributes because,, you know, after five to six minutes, the audience tends to tune out and I've seen too many funerals… even if a person's a really good speaker, it's really got to be sort of short and sharp. And I know that sounds horrible, if someone’s lived 90 years, but you can do it in three to four minutes or even to five minutes. James: Yeah. Wow. Well, a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much. Blanche, you are, you know, remarkably still full of life. Books are pouring out of you. The Bunny Club, available now, wherever books and libraries exist. What's The Bunny Club about? [laughter] Evelyn: It sounds naughty actually. James: It's sex and murder. I'll say it. It's murder and sex, right? Blanche: Right. [laughter] James: Well, it's a very engaging read, and it's been a very engaging conversation with you as well. Thank you so much for coming. Blanche: Thank you, James. Evelyn: Thank you so much. James: Thank you to Blanche d’Alpuget and Evelyn Calaunan. You've been listening to season six of Life's Booming, Dying to Know, brought to you by Australian seniors. Please leave a review and share this show with someone you know. Visit seniors. com. au slash podcast for more episodes. May your life be booming. I'm James Valentine.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Matters of life and death Australia’s death care and funeral industry is big business. We meet death doula Dr Annetta Mallon and funeral industry adviser Martin Tobin, two caring and passionate business owners supporting you and your loved ones through the last step on life’s journey. About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors. Join James Valentine for the sixth season of Life’s Booming: Dying to Know, our most unflinching yet. We’ll have the conversations that are hardest to have, ask the questions that are easy to ignore, and hear stories that will make you think differently about the one thing we’re all guaranteed to experience: Death. Featuring interviews with famous faces as well as experts in the space, we uncover what they know about what we can expect. There are hard truths, surprising discoveries, tears and even laughs. Nothing about death is off the table. Dr Annetta Mallon is an end-of-life consultant, doula and educator and grief psychotherapist based in Tasmania. With decades of experience in trauma recovery and personal growth, Annetta helps people understand their rights and options at the end of life – especially those without a strong support network. Martin Tobin is a recognised family name in the funeral business. He is founder of Funeral Direction, a consultancy supporting funeral homes and cemeteries across Australia and New Zealand. A former solicitor, Martin brings legal, strategic and business insight, and is focused on helping the industry evolve through innovation, education and long-term planning. If you have any thoughts or questions and want to share your story to Life’s Booming, send us a voice note – lifesbooming@seniors.com.au Watch Life’s Booming on YouTube Listen to Life's Booming on Apple Podcasts Listen to Life's Booming on Spotify For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency, in conjunction with Ampel at Myrtle & Pine Studios -- Disclaimer: Please be advised that this episode contains discussions about death, which may be triggering or upsetting for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. If you are struggling with the loss of a loved one, please know that you are not alone and there are resources available. For additional support please contact Lifeline on 131 114 or Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636. TRANSCRIPT: S06EP03_Matters of Life and Death James: Hello, and welcome to Life's Booming. I'm James Valentine, and this season, we're talking about death. In this episode, we're talking about matters of life and death, well, the final matter, how we say goodbye. Death is big business, and Australia's death care and funeral industry is worth more than $2 billion. And with us are two entrepreneurs, two people who work in this area, supporting you and your loved ones through the last step on life’s journey. We're joined by Dr. Annetta Mallon, an end of life consultant, an educator, and also known as a death doula. And Martin Tobin is a recognised family name in the funeral business and is now an expert adviser on the global funeral industry. Annetta, Martin, welcome to Life's Booming. So many places to start. I'm excited. And Martin, I'll start with you. What's it like when the family business is death? Martin: Yeah, well, it's all I've ever known. When I was, you know, when I was born and grew up, I, we actually lived in a funeral parlour. Um, so when I was, for the first two or three years of my life, uh, the funeral parlour was downstairs. We lived upstairs. So when it's all you've known, you don't think anything different of it. And I suppose all of my friends and sort of social groups when I was young and a teenager thought it was pretty quirky and funny, but for me, it was what I knew. My grandfather and his brother started our family business in the thirties. And by the time I came along, it was well, well and truly established. I didn't really work directly in it straight away after leaving school, but it was always in the background. And so I've always been comfortable with it. James: Yeah. But such an interesting thing. Like what's, what's the dinner time conversation. Did you have a good day, darling? Good deaths? Some good deaths? Martin: Well, all of that. You know, I think that's the stereotype, isn't it, that funeral directors are a bit, sort of weird and severe and a bit morbid, but, but it's, it's far from the truth. You know, I think most people who work in funeral service, and the work that Annetta does, are really warm and loving and gregarious people because you have to have those qualities to really survive and thrive in, in what we do in that space. James: You kind of got to love life, Annetta. Annetta: Absolutely. We are fiercely alive until we are dead. And I think that. Whether it's from the professional funeral side of things or more from consumer advocate and personal support side of things, coming in with a joke – why do we screw the coffin lids down so hard to keep the oncologist out. Great icebreaker: show up with cake. Make jokes, because most of us have a lot of laughter and love in our lives and it's important to leaven sorrow and, and grief. Martin: Yeah. Don't let death just drown out the… James: What's the undertaker's joke? Martin: Oh, there's so many. I mean, everyone used to, I used to get called Stiffy Tobin, that sort of stuff. James: Stiffy, Tobin… Martin: …you know, a bit. So a lot of funeral directors get called Stiffy. Annetta: …that's a 1930s cartoon character, isn't it? James: It's like, it's the, the Millers, the Millers and bakers are Dusty. You know, it's that, it's that era, isn't it? Annetta: You're a Tintin character. James: Yeah, exactly. Martin: Yeah. Luckily I wasn't, you know, I don't fit the stereotype of tall and gray. I'm sort of fairly short and not gray. And so when I joined our family business, I was quite young. So I was lucky I sort of didn't fit that stereotype. And back in the early 90s, there was very few women, very few people, young people, very few people from, from diverse backgrounds. So it's changed a lot really for the better in that sense. So there's no stereotypical funeral director now it's, it's a really, really diverse. James: What's a, what's a doula? Annetta: Well, a doula is someone who supports life's transitions. So I've been a birth doula, and it's a very powerful energy when someone comes into the world, but it's really not my jam. I like the other transition, and I'm better at it. I provide an awful lot of information for people who have questions like, what is this going to feel like? Should I be at home or should I be in the hospital? And the point of a lot of my conversations is not to provide answers, but to support people into recognising what's best for them, which I suspect is actually quite a lot of what Martin does, with the way that you work with businesses. James: When do you turn up? Annetta: A piece of string question. I can turn up pre-need, so there's no terminal or life limiting diagnosis. There's a bit of a myth that we turn up magically, like a fairy, in the last 24 hours of life. That's not really great or optimal. James: So, do some people get you, even if, well, I don't have a diagnosis, but I want to start working with a doula? Annetta: If you're a doula like me who does planning and can answer questions and help people prepare their documentation and their wishes, because that's not anything you want to be doing at the last minute and in cases where there's dementia and cognitive decline. It's too late then to get your planning in place. So I also help to support and foster family-wide and network-wide conversations so that everyone understands if someone's interested in assisted dying, let's talk about that. Does anyone have questions, for example. Or have you considered your pets in your planning? Are you including your grandchildren or just your children? Would you prefer to die in a medicalised environment, ideally, or in a home like environment? James: So you can, yeah, so you're there at any point and really every circumstance is entirely different. Annetta: It is, it's unique every single time. James: Same for funerals? Martin: Yeah, I mean, a funeral really should be a reflection of the person's life and interests and values and philosophies, and sometimes, you know, historically, traditionally, in say the last couple of hundred years that, that often revolved around their, their faith. So these days funerals are quite sort of open-ended, quite, quite unstructured, quite celebratory and people are trying to find some ritual in that and some meaning in that and, and that's the, that's the real change that's happening in funeral service. You know, funerals have been going on for thousands of years. They're one of the early rituals of human, human existence. So, and they emanate from the human need to stop when someone from among us leaves us, and reflect on that person's life, to typically grieve that person, if they meant something to us. So that is, you know, invariably people feel sad, not always, but typically. And people have to then say, well, how do we, how do we move forward without this person? And then for a lot of people, that's incredibly difficult. Grief, grief is just our response to loss. You can't control it. You can't make it go away. So if you suppress it in the early days, it comes back to bite you later. So a funeral is a chance to gather, reflect, embrace the reality of the death and embrace the early stages of the grief, the pain that you'll often experience, and to receive support from your community and to let go of that person because they go from being with you to being a memory. James: It's interesting the way you phrased it or the point of view you expressed there was to me it was the person closest to whoever's died, it's for them. And then it's for the community. It's not for us. Funeral's not for the guy that died. The funeral's for us. Martin: Yep, that's right. And we're finding a lot of people now trying to sort of orchestrate their own celebration and say, this is what I want. I want this to happen, that to happen. And that's, that's got a place, but it's really for the living, for the, for those that are left behind. And, you know, the dead, the dead can't tell the living what, how to feel. But they can give guidance and direction, but I think it's really important that the funerals, funerals are done the way that the survivors feel they need, need to do it so that they, that helps them get back into life afterwards. James: Yeah. Yeah. Would you agree? What's a funeral for? Annetta: I think a funeral is an opportunity to remember why your person was so important to you. One of the big changes that I think we're going to see more and more of in Australia now, with assisted dying nationally available, is a fabulous ‘going away party’, as I call them. So people who attend their own funerals, because basically, especially if you're in a hospital, you know when your time is coming. So there's almost like a bookending effect where we have a celebration with the person and they get to say goodbyes and explain to people why they were important and hear all the good stuff. Then there's probably going to be a gathering of some kind afterwards, possibly ham rolls and whisky will play a part, because, as Martin has said, we need to commemorate the fact that this aspect of our lives is now irrevocably changed. I think for a lot of us, the relationship goes on, but it's very different. I still talk to my mother and my grandmother, both of whom are dead. I don't expect them to respond. But there's still kind of… James: …I think that's the sane way to do it. If you expect them to respond, I don't… Annetta: That's a different conversation. James: That's different. Yeah. We're doing another whole episode on that. Martin: Different podcast. Annetta: Different podcast. James: From Beyond the Grave. Welcome. So again, the funeral's not really for the dead person. Annetta: I've never thought a funeral is for the dead person. It is to really bring us out of the immense shock of the raw grief that – and this is a generalisation – is about 72 hours. And that's not a sustainable emotional state. We get to come together. We get to shift from intense grief, the personal experience of loss and that response – because grief is love with no place left to be put – into mourning, which is a more shared communal public sense of loss, which is a really important transitional period in accepting a death, coming to terms with a death, acknowledging a death. And the funeral makes a space that I think is important, not just for the closest people, but for friends, work colleagues, community members. So there is a space that can be welcoming for a variety of community members, which is also really important. Community can be quite intimate and small, it can be broader and more encompassing. Martin: Yeah, look, I think it does need to, I think a good funeral will reflect the person's life. If, if it's, if it's not authentic, if you go to that funeral and you say, Gee, that wasn't about Fred, then clearly the family have got it wrong. So there has to, they have to be the central character, and that has to, you know, has to really reflect who they were, ideally. But if Fred starts micromanaging his service, his celebration, then I think we're missing the point because it really is for, for those left behind to say, what's going to be meaningful for me to help me, you know, take stock of my life now that Fred's, Fred's gone. A good example is, you know, sometimes people these days will often say, look, let's not go to the fuss of a funeral. Let's, let's have a private cremation or burial and we'll have a memorial service, which is fine. And a lot of people choose that. But if Fred's not there, you know, the emotions around how people feel about Fred and the stories about him aren't really aren't heightened enough for people to really feel what they should feel at a funeral. It's hard to sort of get started with your grief, is sort of the perspective I have… James: …But I suppose there's often that, that's often thought of, we're going to do this in a few days, but the memorials in two weeks… Annetta: I think it's individual. And I also think it is broader culture. So for example, in some cultures, from Eastern Europe, there are marker days. So you will have the funeral on a particular day and then you might do something 10 days later. And then the 40th day might be, for example, in the Macedonian community… I still pay attention to ‘death-aversaries’ and I pay attention to it because it's going to affect my mood and the way I go throughout the day because I will be thinking about that person. And ideally, you have had the opportunity to spend time with your person, whether that's in a hospital room. For example, I did that when my mother died. We were allowed to have the room for as long as we wanted with her. Or at home, and you might keep your person at home for a day or two and sing to them, wash them, sit in silence, cry with them, laugh with them. That's, that can be part of the saying goodbye, which the funeral then when it's done properly and appropriately, I think sort of wraps everything up and ties it as neatly together as you can so that you can move into all of the afters of grief. James: Martin, let's talk about the, the business of funerals. It's a big business, isn't it? Martin: Well, it's, it became an industry a hundred plus years ago, something that people started outsourcing to, you know. And initially it was outsourced to cabinet makers who made the coffin. And then they, the cabinet maker said, well I can, not only can I make the coffin, but I can transfer the body from the place of death and… And over a period of time it became an industry. So, it is there, so it is an organised industry in most, most countries around the world. And so the, the organised funeral director will provide a range of services to, you know, support people who've lost, lost someone. In Australia, it's primarily, historically, made up of family owned private businesses that are multi generational family businesses. But about 25 years or so ago, a lot of the well known family businesses were purchased by larger groups. But certainly they're at, in my view, they're at a competitive disadvantage to a generally family owned local community based, family owned business, because they just don't have that essence. James: Yeah. Is it a strange thing? I mean, you've talked very compassionately about grief and about the humanity of what's involved about the moment of death and what people are dealing with. Yet this is something that you'll make profit from, that the company is going to make profit from. Is that a strange, is there a conflict there? Martin: There isn't really. I mean, you know, sometimes I think a lot of the people who are attracted to the industry, yeah, they're talking to a family and they've gone through a loss and there's a lot of grief and pain and there might be, there might be some challenging financial circumstances too that they glean from the conversation. And yeah, that people feel, feel, Oh, gee, how can we add pain to them, or, you know, add, you know, send them an invoice for $10,000, whatever it might be on top of what they're already experiencing. So yeah, it is a little bit uncomfortable, but I think if, if the business has integrity around its pricing and there's, there's genuine options and, and you know, they're not sort of forced into any sort of uncomfortable decisions, then, you know, most people recognise that a funeral, if it, you know, needs to be done in a certain way, there's going to be a cost to that. James: And do you find that, you know, the, the rise of doulas, the presence of doulas, the change… the way in which there seems to be a lot of, a lot of alternatives to those bigger companies or that standard sort of the mahogany casket approach. Is that in a reaction to this sort of somewhat, you know, industrialisation of, of the process? Annetta: Partially, yes, and from my perspective, I think we can, Okay, Boomer, let's give you a big vote of thanks, because at every stage of life, the Boomer generation, it's a cliche for a reason, they've demanded information and choice, and they want things on their terms far more than we'd seen in the silent generation, certainly, and previous generations. So, what are my rights, options, and choices at end of life? What can we do better and differently? It's made space for things like Daisybox Caskets Australia. I'm not affiliated with them, but they offer a lower and a high quality product, but it's less expensive than mahogany, which you mentioned. Not a bad option for families on a budget, not a bad option for cremations. I think, as we are in such an almost overwhelm of information age, people do want to know what's possible and we can readily see that, for example, in the USA, we've got Katrina Spade, who started with the urban death project. James: What’s that? Annetta: The urban death project was an architectural hypothetical exercise. How can we offer a space for respectful memorialisation and body disposition that is not taking up valuable land. And from this, then we have, recompose, which is natural, organic reduction, nor human composting. In Tasmania, we've got the very first water based cremation service. James: What is that? Because I mean, cremation implies fire to me, not water. Annetta: Yes. So it's alkaline hydrolysis. It's a high temperature, high alkaline process of dissolving everything, which at the end you get a product that instead of gray ashes, white, you get a completely sterile liquid, that I personally don't see why we can't use on green spaces, urban green spaces, but it can go down the drain. James: Just water me in the park. Just go water the flowers with me. Annetta: I quite like that. Martin: Splash me into the ocean. James: Splash me into the ocean. Annetta: There we go. And it's, it's about a seventh of the environmental footprint of a flame cremation. Costs about the same, maybe a little bit more, but we also have a team that will transport statewide. We don't do natural burial, we don't have dedicated natural burial, um, spaces in Australia. The UK does it really well. James: Again, what’s natural burial? Annetta: Okay, so instead of going down six feet, like into colder ground, which is anaerobic, there's frequently a lot of concrete involved, you're in essentially like a hotter ground. You've got more microbes and oxygen, you're going to break down faster. And in the UK, the multipurpose spaces where you might be running, sheep, for example, or growing wildflowers or food. In the USA, when you have the composted remains of people, which turns out to be quite a lot, large in volume, they work with a national park, and it actually goes to beautify hiking trails and to recondition public spaces. James: I like all these. Annetta: I like it too. James: They're kind of positive, aren't they? Annetta: There's options for everybody. So it's opening up spaces for non medical community based people like myself. It also means that there's new and exciting ways for funeral directors to then work with people to make the meaningful, personalised, ritual and ceremony and funeral experience. So, thank you, Boomers. We've got a lot of change. James: Yeah.. And is, are the traditional companies, are they embracing this? Are they seeing the need to embrace this? [00:19:15] Martin: The traditional funeral of being in a church and sort of straight to the cemetery with, with everything sort of reasonably structured, that pattern has definitely broken. We're seeing two things in the Australian industry, that is people trending or consumers saying That doesn't do it for me anymore, I'm either going to go for something very simple that's, like, low cost and, you know, where there's not much of a fuss; or people are saying, I want something highly customised, highly celebratory, highly innovative. And the companies that have stayed quite traditional and conservative are actually losing relevance. And so the funeral directors who are seeing those Baby Boomer-led changes, and are responding construct-- who are responding or actually leading the way themselves and coming up with some of those ideas themselves, they're the ones that are becoming or staying relevant and are thriving. You know, there's a funeral company called Tender Funerals who, whose focus and philosophy is that the family are much more involved in the actual funeral, which is, which is a great thing, which is how it should have, how it used to be. You know, the family themselves would… James: So what might take place? What do they, what do they do? Martin: Well, they might wash and dress the body as, as Annetta said, you know, they might, they might carry the coffin in some of the steps that normally the funeral director would, would only do. There's subtle differences and I don't, I don't profess to know a lot about what they do, but, but philosophically their, their message is let's do funerals the way they used to be done, and not outsource everything to the funeral director. So that's a challenge for the organised industry, because people are responding to that, and because people are saying, Yeah, actually, that's how we did use to do it. And I think the work that doulas are doing is getting people comfortable with the conversation, you know, the fact that we all die and that… Annetta: We've checked, everyone dies. Yeah. Martin: Yeah, we worked that out before. Annetta: Spoiler alert. James: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Martin: So, you know, the organised industry has to realise that with education and Boomer-led sort of innovation, there's a lot more, you know, sort of change and sort of innovation they have to embrace, otherwise they will become irrelevant. Annetta: Whether you're coming from a more business-like perspective or something that's more community led, we all offer skills and services that have value. People train to be funeral directors and celebrants. People train to be morticians, people train to be doulas. And there's an awful lot of ongoing research and continuing education because the legislation is changing very quickly, in terms of documentation, where it's stored, how it's processed. Assisted dying is constantly changing, as we review the laws. And there is a value to that. I'm not a charity. I like to eat meals and sleep under a roof. So, I think one of the unexpected benefits of having more open conversations, generally, is people can recognise, Oh, well, maybe this much for a funeral seems too much, but this is a reasonable sum and I'm happy to pay that sum because we're getting something of value, in the end. That may be more personalised, maybe more ritualised and traditional, but then we have an exchange of something for something. James: But also those pro, the kind of, you know, those newer processes you were describing, even of how we dispose of the body, a more sustainable approach, is going to reflect a lot of people's values, you know, in a way that a traditional cask of being buried at a six feet under. Martin: Funerals don't operate in a vacuum. You know, they're part of the broader society. James: Yeah. Why do you like working in the area of death? Martin: It's a real privilege to, to work with, I mean, you know, the work that Annetta does is amazing. Like to have an open conversation with someone who is facing their own mortality, must, every day, must be an amazing privilege. And the work that I've done historically is after that. So it's, it's not as, it's not as confronting, because it's happened, but it's just really satisfying work to help people, you know, when they are at a low point to do something for them that's valuable, that's meaningful, and to help them with the long-term journey they're about to embark on. A funeral is just one of the first steps in their, their overall journey without that person. And if you can get them off to a good start with a good, you know, this notion of a good funeral, then, you know, then it's incredibly satisfying work. The vast majority of the people that work in funeral service, and I'm sure in the work that you do, are there for the right reasons. They're there because they, they are people-driven people, they love helping. They want to make a difference for people. So, it's a very satisfying industry. But most of what we have, the stereotype of we're all a bit weird and that it's far, it's almost the opposite. James: Annetta, why do you like it? You said you were better than this. You'd been a birth doula but you said ‘I'm better at death’. Annetta: I am better at death. I like puppies, not children, which probably explains a lot. I'm a good story keeper. And someone who is at end of life or is coming to terms with a life-limiting or terminal diagnosis – maybe a slower decline or more rapid decline – there is still an essence of themselves that they would like to have preserved, which I think feeds into this idea of the meaningful, purposeful funeral. The meaningful, purposeful end-of-life, with quality of life until we die, and then trying to offer a quality of life to people as they come to terms with the death of their person, is values driven, I think, in terms of planning. And also, for me, it's about honoring that person and trying to empower them with as much information as appropriate so that they can make informed decisions. I think there's nothing more empowering. When I've done my job really right, I'm not even involved when someone dies. Sometimes I'm in the room and that's okay, but often I will hear from families afterwards. And there's wonderful stories about the time that was spent while their person was dying, caring for their person's body after death, how the family and the friends came together to facilitate all of that, and then how that relationship of community changes, or stays the same, following that. So people then find meaning in their own life, get more excited about planning. The death literacy snowball is a wonderful thing to watch in action. That's my jam. I really love it. James: What do they do? What, what have people told you about death? Annetta: Interestingly enough, for a lot of people, it's not about death itself. It's about being frightened of dying. My pain threshold's in the basement, I don't want to be in pain. That bothers me far more than my moment of death. The people they loved know that they're loved… James: They want that, they want them to know? Annetta: … They want that. They want to know that love has been expressed, which I think is possibly why we're seeing that uptick, too, and people saying, I'd like this playlist at my funeral. I always start with a playlist with planning, you know, control it, be the DJ. Could we talk about this? I'd like these elements. Because it's a way of caretaking in a sense, the people that they're going to leave behind. The messages that people leave are messages of love. I think that's something the film Love Actually got really right, in the beginning. How do I convey that? How can I try and make that my legacy? So we're seeing it arise in, life writing, the narrative of someone's life so that there might be a digital book or voice recordings. We're seeing that with social media platforms where social accounts can be turned into memorial accounts. But I think also we need to prepare ourselves for the fact that sometimes that is all yanked away with no warning, sometimes, by family members who think that that's the right thing to do. And that can leave people devastated. So I think we're all kind of jogging along together, trying to come to terms with all the changes and make them a good fit for individuals. James: Martin, what do you hear? What do hear people say about death? Martin: Most people dread the day, you know, they're dreading the day, they have to get it, get up there in front of all those people, walk through the gathering and everyone's looking at them. And so there's a, there's a lot of dread. People will say, can we just get over and done with? Can we do it tomorrow? You know, when the death's been today, or whatever. So there is that sense that it's going to be an ordeal. So if, after it's happened and you, the feedback is all the conversations you hear are, Oh, that was really special and it went well and, and what a tribute we paid to Dad or Mum, you know, you know, he would have loved it or whatever. You know, that you've lifted all that dread away, and then they move ahead. So they're off to a good start. Otherwise, if we just die and we, we pause for a few minutes and we get back on the bike and start living again, well, you know, that person, all their, what they meant to us and all their stories and history and what they wanted to be said about them just gets shuffled aside and we get on with life again. So I think we, I think most of us deserve a bit better than that. And a funeral is a really good opportunity to just stop the clock for a while. You know, we don't have to wallow in it for weeks. And some cultures do, they actually, they put a real ritual around it. But as a minimum, just have some, some chance where we can say, his life mattered. I think that's, I think that's really good. Annetta: Yeah. James: This has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much, Annetta. Thank you. Annetta: Thank you for having me, James. It's been a pleasure. James: Martin, thank you. Martin: I enjoyed it. James: Terrific. Thanks to our guests, Dr. Annetta Mallon and Martin Tobin. You've been listening to Season 6 of Life's Booming, Dying to Know, brought to you by Australian Seniors. Please, leave a review or tell someone about it. Head to seniors.com.au/podcast for more episodes. May your life be booming. I'm James Valentine.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dying well We’re all going to die, but how we acknowledge death and dying is a very personal experience. Award-winning journalist and author Tracey Spicer and anthropologist Dr Hannah Gould explore etiquette, rites and traditions to find out what makes a ‘good death’. About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors. Join James Valentine for the sixth season of Life’s Booming: Dying to Know, our most unflinching yet. We’ll have the conversations that are hardest to have, ask the questions that are easy to ignore, and hear stories that will make you think differently about the one thing we’re all guaranteed to experience: Death. Featuring interviews with famous faces as well as experts in the space, we uncover what they know about what we can expect. There are hard truths, surprising discoveries, tears and even laughs. Nothing about death is off the table. Tracey Spicer AM is a Walkley award-winning journalist, author and broadcaster. And she's an ambassador for Dying With Dignity. A vocal campaigner and advocate for voluntary assisted dying (VAD), Tracey penned a letter to her mother following her painful death in 1999. Dr Hannah Gould is an anthropologist who works in the areas of death, religion and material culture. She recently appeared on SBS documentary: Ray Martin: The Last Goodbye. Hannah’s research spans new traditions and technologies of Buddhist death rites, the lifecycle of religious materials, and modern lifestyle movements. If you have any thoughts or questions and want to share your story to Life’s Booming, send us a voice note – lifesbooming@seniors.com.au Watch Life’s Booming on YouTube Listen to Life's Booming on Apple Podcasts Listen to Life's Booming on Spotify For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency, in conjunction with Ampel Disclaimer: Please be advised that this episode contains discussions about death, which may be triggering or upsetting for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. If you are struggling with the loss of a loved one, please know that you are not alone and there are resources available. For additional support please contact Lifeline on 131 114 or Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636. TRANSCRIPT: James: We're all going to die. Happens to all of us. But how we acknowledge death and dying is of course a very personal experience. With our guest and our expert, we're going to explore the etiquette, the rites and traditions seen in Australia and around the world. Someone who knows a lot about the rites and traditions of death is Dr Hannah Gould, an anthropologist who works in the areas of death, religion and material culture. We're also going to be joined by Tracey Spicer, she’s a Walkley award-winning author, journalist and broadcaster. And she's an ambassador for Dying With Dignity. Tracey and Hannah, welcome. Thank you so much. Tracey: Hello. James: Thank you for coming. Hannah Gould. Hello. Thank you for coming. Hannah: Thank you. James: Fantastic. Let's talk death! Tracey: Why not? There'll be lots of fun. James: Do you laugh in the face of death? Hannah: What else can you do? I mean, look, you know. Lots of sadness, lots of joy, every single emotion is reasonable, surely. I mean, it's like the question, the ultimate question of philosophy, of history, of every discipline. Every response is valid. Not always useful, or helpful. James: Yeah. Yeah. Hannah: But valid. Tracey: Well, it's a universal topic of conversation and that's why I've always loved dark humour. Because you do have to laugh, otherwise what do you do? James: I also think it's, it is the ultimate joke that we are all going to die, but we live like we're not going to. We live every day as though it's just not going to happen at all. Tracey: Especially in Western society, I think other cultures have got it right and we're in such deep denial about it. It's detrimental to all of us. James: Yeah. Now this is your area of expertise really, is that do other cultures have it right? Hannah: Everyone does it differently. Right or wrong is kind of a difficult thing to judge. I think certainly there's a big thing called, like, the denial of death thesis, right. And, and people like Ernest Becker, a lot of different philosophers and anthropologists and cultural, you know, analysis have looked at Western culture and gone, Oh my gosh, we are so invested in denying death, right. And whether that's through denying death by religions that say you're going to live forever, like, you know, don't worry, it's not the end. You'll pop off to heaven or whatever it is. Or through, you know, great heroic myths. Yes, you'll die, but the nation will remember you forever. So, you know, you won't really die. You'll be a martyr. Or contemporary, you know. Yes, you'll die, but have you seen how great the shopping is? You know, we can just ignore, we can deny death by being on Instagram and, you know, consuming, right, so, I think Western culture in particular, the way we've organised our society, allows us to not think about death. James: And we've organised death to be somewhere else, usually now. To be in a hospital, to be in palliative care somewhere. And they may be good, but they're not, they're not in the cottage, are they? They're not next to, not in the bedroom. Hannah: Not in the bedroom. So, we know that, say, 70% of Australians wish to die at home. Only about 15% do. And that is a rate that is lower than all these other countries we like to compare ourselves. So Australians are more institutionalised in their death than places like Ireland, like New Zealand, the United States of America, even Canada. We tend, more than other countries, to die in institutions – aged care, hospitals, and hospices. James: Yeah, right, right. The other way in which we deny death is, or the other way in which other cultures have a different attitude to death, will be that it'll either be more accepting – we are all going to die, will be part of their every day – or they may have a notion of reincarnation and coming back, which means that that's a very different attitude to death, really, than a, than a heaven and a hell. Hannah: Yeah, it's not necessarily an end so much. I think that's kind of quite common in, say, you know, Buddhist or Hindu or other kind of dharmic religions, particularly Asian religions. And then, obviously, there's a lot of Asian religion that's part of Australian society, so that's also quite present in Australia. But we can also have a kind of more secular idea about that. You know, a lot of these, a lot of my mum's generation in particular, have kind of a green environmental kind of reincarnation model where she will say, well, I don't particularly believe in heaven, but I do believe I'm going to become compost. Food for worms, you know, I'll come back as a tree or a flower or a tomato plant, you know, and that's, that's a kind of reincarnation of like reintegration into the natural environment, as it were. So there are some kind of myths or stories we can tell ourselves that perhaps help us think about death more positively. James: I've got a, a friend of mine who'd be into her 80s has said, oh, funeral? Just put me up the top paddock, let the crows have a go. Tracey: Yeah. My dad wants to be buried in a cardboard box, and I think that's a wonderful idea. James: We all say that, don't we? That's a really common one as well. I hear that a lot on the radio. People will go, mate, just, I don't care, put me out with the, on the hard rubbish day. Hannah: In the paddock, whatever it is… James: …the paddock, that’s the same sort of thing I said. You know, like, do we really want that, do you think? Hannah: Oh, do we really want that? I do think Aussies are pretty pragmatic about death. I do think we have a certain streak in us that's kind of like, you know what, it's all a bit much fuss, it's all too much. You kind of even get these people who therefore say, don't have a funeral. You know, I really don't want to have a funeral. Please don't even, you know, no fuss. That can be kind of sad sometimes because I think it's some people kind of not acknowledging how many people love them and miss them. James: Yeah. Hannah: Um, but maybe it's also a bit of an Aussie humour, dry humour, that, that black humour again of kind of, you know, trying to laugh in the face of death. Why not? Tracey: I would agree, but then we all get sucked in when we're in the funeral home, and they show you the cardboard box, and then they show you the glossy one that's 10 or 20 thousand dollars, and you think, did I really love that person that much, or should I do it? So it all feeds into what you were talking about before, that consumerism and overcommercialisation. James: Well, I also think sometimes, I would think it's about weddings. Weddings and funerals, well, who's it actually for? Tracey: Yeah, yeah. Well it's a punctuation mark, isn't it? I'm a lifelong atheist, but Tracey: I do enjoy, it sounds terrible, going to those kind of ceremonies, whether it's a funeral or a wedding, because it's important to celebrate or commemorate these changes, these huge changes. James: I love the sharing of stories at a funeral. People start talking. Tracey: Well, you learn so much about someone's life that you may not have known. And also often they're rich for that dark humour. I'll never forget my grandmother's funeral, who I was incredibly close to. And my father's new girlfriend loved my grandmother. She was so distraught she tried to throw herself into the hole in the ground on top when she was throwing the dirt in and I thought, well, that's intense. James: That's good. Tracey: That's, I've never seen that before. That's a first. Hannah: Oh, I've seen that before. Tracey: Have you?! Hannah: I will say that, you know, when you attend enough funerals or attend enough cremations for professional reasons, um, as it were, you kind of see everything, every range of human emotions. Like, we, we kind of think, you know, all funerals are all happy families. A lot of unhappy families, a lot of punch ups at funerals, lots of, uh, mistresses coming out of the woodwork at funerals, conversions, religious, you know, more and more people have recorded messages from beyond the grave that they play at their funeral, or, uh, they've decided that we're having a dance party, or we're having some sort of festivity or an event. I mean, you can do anything these days with a funeral. James: Do you go to a lot, just to observe? Hannah: Yeah, I do my research. So I, I research in death and dying and I, I work at a crematorium and I attend funerals and I hang around with other people in the death care sector. James: Yeah. Hannah: And you do see everything. James: Why do you want to… Tracey: …What got you interested in this? It's your job and I'm just fascinated by it… James: …We'll, we'll, we'll, we'll both do it. I think you've done this sort of thing! So, yeah. Well then, then, why do you want to be around death? Hannah: Oh. I mean, personal and professional. Professional, I'm an anthropologist, and anthropologists want to know what brings us together, what makes us all human, but then also why we do it so differently. And there is nothing else. It is the question, right, it is the one thing we all experience, and yet we've all decided to do it in completely different ways, and completely different ways throughout history. And then, personally, my dad died, and I thought, gosh, what on earth is going on? I suddenly was given the catalogue, of funeral, of coffins, right. James: And you were young. Hannah: I was 22, 23 when my dad died. An age that was perfectly old and mature at the time, I thought. But looking back, obviously, it was incredibly young. But yeah, I suddenly got handed this catalogue of, of kind of coffins, and they all had these really naff names, like, you know, these rich mahoganies, and like, it was like paint colours. Someone had, someone somewhere had decided, these were the options, right, that you were, that this is what was going to represent my dad. And I just felt this massive disconnect and I thought, ‘Hang on, I've got to work out what's going on there.’ So now I spend my life in death, as it were. James: Yeah. I suppose, most of us would think being around death would be a very gloomy kind of thing to be, or way to spend your day. Hannah: It can be very gloomy. But oh my gosh, the gallows humour that those boys in the crem – the crematorium – tell, uh, you know. James: Is there a joke you can share? Hannah: Ooh. Um. Not a lot of them are safe for work or anywhere. James: Tracey, you were going to jump in and ask something there before. What were you going to ask? You know, fellow professional interviewer. Tracey: I really see a connection with you being 22 when your father died and I was 32 when my mother died. Hannah: Mm. Tracey: Even at 32 I felt like I wasn't ready for it. James: Right, no. Tracey: And especially because it happened so quickly. Mum was the linchpin for the family, you know, smart and funny and she could do anything. She was one of those early super women kind of role models. And then all of a sudden at the age of 51 she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer with seven months to live and she lived seven months almost to the day. And it was blood and guts and gore. She was in agonising pain. My sister and I were injecting her with medication every day. We wanted her to die in the home. Tracey: But it got to the stage where we had to bring her to palliative care, and that's when we started having the conversations about voluntary assisted dying, because, um, Mum and Dad had always said, put me down like a dog. And again, it's one of those things that you think it's going to be easy at the time, but it's not. We talked to the doctor. The doctor said, I don't want to end up in jail. And my sister sat there with the morphine button. She pressed it so often she had a bruise on her thumb. James: Hmm, right Tracey: …we said, surely you can just increase the morphine, because Mum was having breakthrough pain. So everything was fine until she'd scream once an hour, and there was no way they could cap that. So it's cruel, right? It's cruel. I, I don't think there's any way they would have done it. We tried to have those conversations. James: …Yeah… Tracey: Which is why one night, because we were sleeping in a chair next to her overnight just to hold her hand when she was in pain, I picked up the pillow and I did try to put it over her face because I thought, what kind of daughter am I, to let her suffer? And then I stopped at the last minute and then I felt really ashamed of, you know, what a coward I am. Hannah: No, I was going to say the opposite. What an incredibly brave act to, to have so much love and compassion for this person and so much respect, what you knew her wishes would be, that you were willing to do that, you know, for, not – for her, not to her, for her, right? That's extraordinary. Tracey: It's lovely of you to say. James: Did she know what you were doing? Tracey: Oh no, she was out of it for about the previous two weeks, actually. In and out of it. And then she died in the next 24 hours anyway. So she was very, very close. And she'd had that kind of burst, you know, had that almost honeymoon period a couple of days beforehand where you think, Well, she seems like she's getting better and we've read about that, so we expected she was close. Hannah: …Yep, the final, the final burst… Tracey: Yeah. Is there a name for that? Hannah: You know, I don't know what it's called, but you know, that is when usually the palliative care doctors, the hospice workers will call up the family and say, guess what? They're up and about, they're talking, they're eating all of a sudden, and that's genuinely usually a sign that it's not going to be long. James: Wow, isn't that interesting. Hannah: It's the final burst of energy. One of the interesting things about the rise of voluntary assisted dying, of euthanasia, to speak more broadly in Australia, is it reflects this kind of cultural shift that we have about the importance of choice and control towards the end of our lives and how increasingly like that is becoming an important part of what we think about as a good death, right. Like I want to be able to control where I die and who I die with and when and the pain and suffering, right? And that hasn't always been the case, right, you know throughout history there's been periods of that. There's been periods of, ‘Leave it to God.’ Or there's also been periods of, ‘Yes, I must prepare. I have to write my final last note or poetry’, or whatever it is. But that's increasingly becoming important particularly for, we see within the baby boomer generation that they really want to, you know, have some sort of choice, and emphasis on choice. James: Well, I mean, I wonder whether a lot of it is a reaction to, um, the, the medical control over the end of our lives is so extreme that we can be kept alive for so long. And so, it's, it's, it's a reaction to that medical control, isn't it? To want to say, well, surely I can, we can, we can have both, can't we? You can either keep me alive or I don't want to be kept alive. Could you let me go? Hannah: It's one of the great paradoxes, they talk about this paradox of contemporary death and contemporary medicine, is that all of our interventions have increased, right. The medicalisation of death has meant that not only do we have pain control, but we can keep people alive for longer. You know, we have better medicines, drugs, palliative medicine is massively advanced. And yet, if we ask people, the quality of death and dying has not increased. James: Right… Hannah: …And if we look globally, more access to medicine doesn't necessarily correlate with a higher quality of death and dying. There's some correlation, like, do you actually have the drugs? Can you access, access them? But when it gets to kind of over a certain hurdle, just because you're dying in Australia versus dying in a country with no resources doesn't mean you're going to die better. James: What do you, what's a quality of death? How are we measuring that? What do you mean by that? Hannah: There's lots of things you can do to measure it and people try. So one of them is, you know, to ask, ask the family, to ask the dying person, to also ask the physician, did you think this was a good death? You know, how do we assess it? Because it's not just up to the dying person as well. Of course, it's also up to the family, right – How did you experience that death, that dying? It's a difficult thing to measure, right, because for some people death is never gonna be… You know, the words good death, bad death are kind of controversial now because it's like, oh my God, I have to try at everything else, do I also have to live up to a good death? Like, we can't make it good. Can we make it better? James: Yeah. What is a good death, Tracey? Tracey: I think this really intersects with, uh, competition. Everything's become a competition. And also quality of ageing. Hannah: Yes, yes… Tracey: …Because my darling dad, who's 84 and still hanging on after smoking and drinking himself almost to death when he was in his 50s – it's a miracle he's still alive. He has very close to zero quality of life. He's a lovely man, we love spending time with him, but he can barely walk. You know, where's the quality of life? So I've just written a book about artificial intelligence recently, so it worries me, that medtech space, that we're getting people to live longer, but there's no quality of life and also no quality of death. Hannah: There's this phenomenon we actually call, in scholarship, we call it prolonged dwindling. Tracey: Oh, which is so true, I love that. Hannah: What a term! But it's, it's… James: …Sounds like the worst Enya album ever… Tracey: …And it never ends… Hannah: …But yeah, it's, it's, there's exactly this thing, right. So it used to be, if you look at like the kind of time, it used to be that you'd either have a sudden illness, fall off a horse, through a sword, war, back in the day, and you, and then you would die, or you would have a, you know, a serious major illness, like a cancer or a heart attack, and then pretty soon after, you'd die, right? What we have now, what we tend to have now, is these kind of timelines towards the end of life of, you know, multiple hospitalisations, in and out of hospital, or you have something like Alzheimer's, right, where you have a very, very, very slow and long cognitive decline, potentially with very high care needs, so you're in hospital, you're in care for 20, 30 years, right? Which is unheard of previously, that you would need this level. So how we die is changing, and it's a completely different timeline. James: Yeah. Does… Tracey, let's just return to this moment when you started to perhaps really think about death. You know, you're confronting your mother's suffering, and you think about, you know, taking control of that, about doing something. Was that an impulse? Was it something that grew over time? Tracey: It was knowing my mother's character as being very forthright, and she was always in control, to speak to control. She would have liked me to try to control the situation. It was also, obviously, that you never want to see a loved one in suffering. But it taught all of us in the family a couple of important lessons. Dad’s now got an advance care directive that’s 28 pages long, so we know exactly what's going to happen. My husband and I still haven't done that, but we do talk to our kids who are aged 18 and 20 about this kind of stuff. I think part of that is my husband's a camera operator, I've been a long-time journalist, so in newsrooms, a very dark sense of humour, similar to the crematoriums, so we talk about death and dying an awful lot at home, but I think it's important to have those conversations and to prepare for a good enough death as much as you can. Tracey: I mean, what does a good enough death mean to you? Have you thought about that yourself? James: Yeah, well I have. I've had some, you know, health issues, had a cancer last year, and so that sort of thing, you know, you do start to confront it and think about it. I'm the fall asleep in the bed, you know, go to bed one night, don't wake up. Tracey: The classic. James: That's the classic. Give me the classic. I'm happy with the classic. Hannah: …Hopefully after you've just finished penning your magnum opus, surrounded by friends and family. James: The end, you know. For me to be onstage, I've just finished a searing saxophone solo, and everyone's just ‘Amazing! Unbelievable!’ Down you go. Something like I mean, sudden, seems to be, just immediate. Immediate and sudden, no suffering. Hannah: Well, that's the thing. Hannah: People always ask me, you know, do you fear death, are you afraid of death? And frankly, after studying it for this long, no, not at all. And I think in an odd way, there is some kind of horrific privilege of having at least one of your parents die young because all of a sudden, you do start thinking about all these things and you learn to live with death, even if you don't like it a lot of the time. I don't fear death, I do fear the prolonged dwindling. Right, like that, the kind of ageing poorly without support in a way that I can't make the controls, and and you know, can't make decisions. That's much more scary to me than death. Death is kind of a great mystery. James: Your interaction with your mother, Tracey, led you to looking at voluntary assisted dying. What did people say about it? What was the general, when you first started to talk about it, when you first started to campaign for it, what would people say? Tracey: What I noticed was a disconnect, that people in the community overwhelmingly supported this because they’d seen loved ones die. But in our parliaments, I saw there a lot of people, a higher percentage than the normal population, are quite religious in our parliaments. Hannah: …Completely unrepresentative... Tracey: …Unrepresentative. And so a lot of organised religions are pushing back against it and therefore there wasn't an appetite for change because of that. I think it took these wonderful lobby groups to get the politicians to listen and for them to realise that there was a groundswell of support. And also, of course, with the examples in the Netherlands and Oregon and Canada who have quite different laws to us. But very successful laws. You rarely see people, I think it's 99.9% successful – only a tiny amount of people who are abusing the legislation, tiny, tiny – but the rest of it, everyone overwhelmingly aligns with it. So it's done in a very ethical and proper kind of way. James: So do you feel as though when you first started talking about it, really, most people were on board? It wasn't something, it wasn't one of those things where we're really trying to, we had to convince people. Tracey: No, that's right, except for people who were particularly religious. Because, let's face it, everyone, pretty much, unless you're quite young, has had a loved one die, so this is something that affected everyone. James: Yeah. I suppose I was wondering. Like someone, some friend, the other day, you know, how have you been, blah, blah, blah. And he went, ‘oh, I had a weird thing yesterday, like, my uncle died’. And I went, ‘oh, that's sad’. And he said, ‘no, no, it was voluntary, he did the voluntary assisted death. He died yesterday afternoon at two o'clock’, you know. I went, ‘oh, wow, you know, you're there?’ ‘Yeah, we're all there, and, you know, it was great, we had a lovely morning with him. We had dinner the night before, and then it just all took place.’ I said, wow, how amazing. And what I was really struck by was what a normal conversation this was. It was a bit like saying, ‘we went to holiday in Queensland’. You know, like it was sort of, he wasn't describing some outlandish thing, you know, it was suddenly this thing, suddenly voluntary assisted dying was just part of the fabric of our, of our lives. You know, do you feel that that's happened in Australia? Tracey: I do feel it's become more normalised, to your point, over the last 20 years. But there's still a lot of academic debate about at what, at what point should you be able to do it. At the moment in Australia, it's overwhelmingly someone with a terminal illness. And it's done by themselves or their doctor, their practitioner. But there are people who want to bring it in for people who are elderly and, and suffering and don't want to live any longer, to support them there. So we're seeing, I guess, a fragmentation of the discussion and the arguments. And I'll be interested to see which way that goes down the track. There's a lot of debate about people, to your point earlier with Alzheimer's, people who have dementia. Hannah: Sensory pleasures. Like, people being able to taste and smell and touch and hug become really important at the end of life. Tracey: Oh, that reminds me of someone I know who did have a good death, who was my grandfather, Mum's father. He lived until 94, and I cared for him towards the end of his life. Our kids were little then, they were probably 7 and 8. And he had that burst, and they said, come on in, he'll die in the next couple of days. We brought in oysters, we brought in red wine. I brought in the kids because I think it was important for them to see that, and he had a good death within the next 24 hours. So it is possible. I think it's rare, but it's possible. James: Yeah, if you know what's happening. A lot of your speciality, Hannah, is in Buddhism. What do Buddhists make of voluntary assisted dying? Hannah: Well, I will say that Buddhism is a religion with over 500 million people in it. So it's kind of like asking, what are the Christians? James: …Right. Right. Hannah: …or what are the Western people think about voluntary assisted dying? So, a range of views. James: Range of views. Hannah: Really huge range of views. James: I suppose I was just wondering whether there was anything in the Buddhist canon as such or the Buddhist, you know, view that just went, no, let life take its course. That, you know, you must experience suffering, so therefore you must experience all life. Hannah: Well, suffering is pretty important to Buddhism, right? And suffering well, and learning to suffer well, is really important. So there are some Buddhists who would oppose voluntary assisted dying because there's a prohibition against killing, right? But most people in Buddhism will, say, weigh that prohibition against killing against, kind of, the experience of suffering, right, and lessening people's suffering. So certainly there are some Buddhists who would say, no, you know, we need to experience suffering and learn how to experience the suffering at the end of life. And that can be quite instructive. It's also why some Buddhists may, uh, deny pain medication and even, you know, deny anything that kind of clogs their mind, because they want to be conscious at the end of life. They want to experience it all, you know, see where their consciousness goes to the next reincarnation. But there's also a, you know, a massive Buddhist movement that has always kind of seen humanity on quite a similar level to animals, right, that we are all beings of this world, and therefore in the same way that we would, you know, have compassion for the suffering of a pet and, you know, euthanase a pet that's going through unavoidable suffering, with many Buddhists who would therefore support the euthanasia of a human being that's going through suffering, right, in the same way. Because humans are not particularly special, right, we're just another being in this world and we'd want to show the same compassion for both of those. James: Yeah, yeah. Hannah: Huge range of views. James: Yeah. Tracey, you said, you said you're an atheist. Does that mean, you know, once the final curtain falls, that's it? Tracey: Well, I'm one of those very open-minded atheists, James, who, if I am diagnosed with something, I fully am open to the opportunity of religion if I end up needing it at that time. And I imagine a lot of people do that. And if, if I do decide to do that, I would choose Buddhism. Hannah: There's actually a fascinating piece of research that just came out, Professor Manning, a religious studies scholar, and she looked at older atheists and what they think about the end of life. Because we tend to think, well, religious people have beliefs, but we don't really study atheists’ beliefs, right, we just think they all think nothing. But she actually found that there was kind of three different kind of world views or narratives that came out, that can be summarised as: lights out, recycling, or mystery. James: I'm all three. I'm all three. Hannah: So the first one is this idea, it's kind of like – death is like anesthesia, you just, that's it. You're at the end, you know, there's nothing, and it's often very biomedical, right. It's like sleep, but you don't dream, so it's more like anesthesia. You know, we've all, maybe all experienced that, and that's what these people believe, that that will be the end. The second one is recycling. So this is the food for worms idea, right, that yes, I will die, but my, you know… Carl Sagan: ‘We are all made of stardust’, right, we'll go back into the universe and one day I will be an oak tree or a, you know, something, quite, you know, a beautiful idea, which I, you know, I think I subscribe to that, I quite like that. And then the third one that they described around atheists was just mystery. That, for a certain group of people, who knows? And we can't ask anyone. And so that it was, it was almost kind of curiosity and excitement towards the end of life. So there are, yeah, you know, this is quite a great mystery, it's a great adventure, right, that we should all go on. James: Yeah, fantastic. We didn't talk much about, I suppose, the emotion we might feel around death at various points. You know, like, I've observed lots of conversations on the radio where my parents' generation, ‘stiff upper lip’... Hannah: …Stoicism… James: …‘How's she doing? Oh, very well.’ Which means she wasn't feeling anything at all. There's been no, you know, like, that's sort of how you're meant to feel. We now tend to be very emotional about death, you know, like it's, like it's part of our funeral rites, I suppose, to release that, to make sure we all howl. Hannah: Yeah, we have this kind of catharsis model of the funeral, right, which is this idea that, you know, you kind of, even if you might not want to, you go to the funeral and you cry it all out with other people and you have this communal experience of grief. And somehow that is helpful, if not entirely necessary for our long-term grief. But, you know, there's many cultures around the world where wailing is a big tradition, right, so that, you know, women physically throwing themselves at the coffin, howling, collectively crying. You know, it might be an extended period of wearing a certain colour, wearing black, you know, gathering together. Those kind of rituals can also be a way for people to process grief and emotion. You think of, particularly like, you know, in the Jewish tradition of sitting shiva, right, that after someone dies, you immediately gather, right, and there's an extended period of everyone sitting together and dedicated to experiencing grief together. That's quite different to our kind of one-day funeral a week or two after the person's died, and we all go back to our home. Hannah: And it kind of depends on, like, what kind of level of social ties that your cultural society engages in the funeral, right. Do you have a very small private funeral where it's only the immediate family who are the ones that are supposed to be grieving? Or is it everyone you knew in that society, and you have a responsibility to go and be there because you're part of a much larger social fabric, right. And that can be quite different – it can be a 300 or 400-person funeral. You know, one of the largest social groups in Australia is South Asian, Indian, Hindu migration, right? Often extremely large funerals, 300, 400 people in some cases, right, because there's a different expectation about who are the mourners, who is the congregation, who are the people that gather together and stand against death, as it were. Tracey: Another big difference seems to me, and I'd love to hear more about you on this, is the cultures that sit with the body for three days, or have the open coffin for viewing… James: …the body stays at home… Tracey: …of the body, or the body stays at home. Because my sister and I sat with Mum's body for as long as we were legally and practically allowed to in the hospital, which was hours and hours and hours. And when we told a lot of our Western friends, they said what an awful thing to do. But it was really lovely because it cemented the idea that she was actually gone. We told her stories. My sister and I laughed. We cried. It was actually incredibly therapeutic. Hannah: Yeah, and this is one of the difficulties, is people feel, because they have a lot of… People don't have a lot of information, right, so if you're lucky, very lucky, then you'll organise maybe one or two funerals during your whole life, right, and probably there'll be those for your parents, right. And you just don't have a lot of information because we don't talk about it. So you don't know what you're allowed to do. But you know, in all states and territories across Australia, you are allowed to be with that body for an extended period of time. You're allowed to bring that body home. You know, you can actively resist pressures from the hospital and the hospice and everyone else to get you out the door. You can say, no, I would like to be with this body for a bit longer. And as you say, there is also technologies that can allow you to bring the body into the home. I mean, the reason we call them funeral parlours is the front parlour of the house. That is the room where we used to display the body and be with the body and that still occurs in many cultures around the world. You know, it's difficult; it can be difficult. It's not always the right decision, you know, you have to think about your particular circumstances, but it is possible. James: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Any final words? Tracey: Only that I think we should all choose our own funeral soundtrack. I've been doing that with a girlfriend lately. James: …What's she gone with? Tracey: …Because, you know… well, I've gone with Edith Piaf. Hannah:…Ah, classic… Tracey: …‘No Regrets’, of course. Absolute classic. And my friend is still choosing from five. But I think, otherwise someone else gets a choice, and they might choose something terrible. James: Yes, no, I think that's very important, get your, get your, get your funeral songs sorted out… Hannah: Catering, funeral songs… James: …the whole soundtrack, the catering you'd be concerned about, you want everyone to have something… Hannah: … delicious. James: …any special cheeses or wines you want? Hannah: French. Yeah, this is what we did for my dad as well. It was like red wine, good French cheese, baguettes, you know. If you're going to grieve, if you're going to cry, you need some sustenance to support you. Tracey: Comfort food. Hannah: Comfort food, exactly. James: Yeah, very nice. Tracey: Before we let you go, what's your funeral song? James: Do you mean, what do I want people to hear as the coffin's going out or something like that? I don't know if I've made that choice yet. I don't know. Hannah: Hard rock? Tracey: Jazz? Hannah: Pop? James: No, it'll be something jazz, I guess, or something in that tradition. It's probably none of the Frank songs. Tracey: Something majestic, though. James: So yeah, ‘Zadok the Priest’, Handel… Hannah: …Oh, I like that. Old school. James: …Something huge! I haven't decided. Yeah, it's, it's but you're right. Like everything, do it, put some effort into it, you know, and have all that stuff ready for your children, for those that are going to have to do it, a little folder somewhere. Tracey: You could play some of your television clips from over the years. James: Oh, I don't think so, Tracey. I think yours might have something like… Hannah: …a highlights reel… Tracey: …a showreel! James: Yeah, my showreel. No, let's not do that. It's largely children's television, Tracey. No one wants to see that. Tracey: That would be great at a funeral. James: I could conduct a – I'd like to conduct a beyond-the-grave talkback session, probably, talkback radio or something. That could be very fun. Hannah: People could all call in to your funeral. James: Oh, I love that! Tracey: Interactive funerals! James: It's a ‘simil’ funeral. It's being broadcast on the station and then people can call in with their tributes. Oh, that's good. Hannah: Anything is possible. James: That is good. Okay, we've got it. Thank you for helping me sort that out. Hannah: We've done it. James: Well, thanks so much to our guests, Dr Hannah Gould and Tracey Spicer. You've been listening to Season 6 of Life's Booming, Dying Well, brought to you by Australian Seniors. Please leave a review or tell someone about it. If you want more, head to seniors.com.au/podcast. May your life be booming. I'm James Valentine.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

James Valentine, a clinical professor of finance in DePaul University's Driehaus College of Business, joins Lisa Dent to discuss the immediate impact that President Trump’s tariffs have made on the stock market.

After 26 years hosting TGIF, Richard Glover is in the chair for the last time, joined by Tommy Dean, Alex Lee and Tahir, as they look at the news of the week – and of the quarter century. Stick around afterwards to hear James Valentine chat to Richard about his life in radio, and about the genesis of Thank God It's Friday. And then keep subscribed for next year, when Charlie Pickering takes on the role of TGIF chair.

Darwin's Dilemma. A Documentary about The Cambrian Explosion and Intelligent Design. This powerful documentary explores one of the great mysteries in the history of life: the geologically-sudden appearance of dozens of major complex animal types in the fossil record without any trace of the gradual transitional steps Charles Darwin had envisioned 150 years ago. Frequently described as “the Cambrian Explosion,” the development of these new animal types required a massive increase in genetic information. Growing evidence suggests that the creation of novel genetic information requires intelligence, and thus the burst of genetic information during the Cambrian Explosion provides convincing evidence that animal life is the product of intelligent design rather than a blind undirected process like natural selection. Darwin's Dilemma recreates the prehistoric world of the Cambrian era with state-of-the-art computer animation, and the film features interviews with numerous scientists, including leading evolutionary paleontologists Simon Conway Morris of Cambridge University and James Valentine of the University of California at Berkeley, marine biologist Paul Chien of the University of San Francisco, and evolutionary biologist Richard Sternberg, a Research Collaborator at the National Museum of Natural History. Watch this documentary for free at- https://watch.redeemtv.com/show-details/darwin-s-dilemma For 3 Intelligent Design Documentaries at RedeemTV visit- https://watch.redeemtv.com/search?query=intelligent%20design   For more many more ACU Shows on Intelligent Design visit- https://acupodcast.podbean.com/?s=intelligent%20design   Stephen C. Meyer, geophysicist, Vice President of the Discovery Institute, and author of the New York Time's best seller "Darwin's Doubt," joins Ben to discuss philosophy, the origins of life, the overlap of science and religion, and much more. Check Stephen C. Meyer out on: Facebook:   / drstephencmeyer   Website: http://www.stephencmeyer.org   You can find out more about Stephen C. Meyer and the books mentioned in this interview at https://stephencmeyer.org/books/ You can follow Stephen on Twitter (X) at:   / stephencmeyer   ‪@DrStephenMeyer   Dr. Stephen C. Meyer received his Ph.D. in the philosophy of science from the University of Cambridge. A former geophysicist and college professor, he now directs Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture in Seattle. He has authored the New York Times best seller Darwin's Doubt: The Explosive Origin of Animal Life and the Case for Intelligent Design, Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design, which was named a Book of the Year by the Times Literary Supplement in 2009, and now, The Return of the God Hypothesis. In this episode, you can expect to hear Dr Stephen C Meyer on: - The scientific evidence for intelligent design - The identity of the 'creator'…

In this episode, Ryan Dusick provides an introspective look at creating the multi-platinum rock pop band, Maroon5, with bandmates Adam Levine, Jesse Carmichael and Mickey Madden, who were later joined by James Valentine. Releasing Songs About Jane in the same timeframe that Ryan and host Benj Gershman met on the road (Summer 2002), Benj recalls the undeniable power of this new music as the two bands initiated a new friendship during two separate tours (Jeep World Outside Festival and an O.A.R. headlining run). Dusick soon had to bow out of his role as drummer for the globally successful band, due to a challenging injury, which later led to alcoholism and fallout in his private life. Ryan shares stories from his memoir, Harder to Breathe, and discusses his favorite memories of being in the band. Now recovered, Ryan spends his time being of service to others as a mental health therapist in Los Angeles California, and shares some key insights to how he incorporates compassion and curiosity into his daily life.

Maroon 5 guitar player James Valentine talks new Maroon 5 residency, new music and more!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In a special bonus episode for The Beliefs Series, James Valentine is joined by broadcaster, journalist, author, and academic; Wiradjuri man, Stan Grant.

James Valentine sits down with Jana Pittman at a stage in her life where she is looking inward and considering carefully what her beliefs are. How has family, the public, her career and relationships shaped who she is?

In this episode, James meets with Turbans 4 Australia founder Amar Singh, whose charity work won him the 2023 Australian Of The Year Local Hero award.As an Australian Sikh, Amar has worked tirelessly to promote multiculturalism and religious tolerance, connecting all walks of life through his charity.But what does he believe about the Australian way of life, parenting, religion and his career on the road as a truck driver.

This week you'll hear from commentator and journalist, Janet Albrechtsen. She is a columnist for The Australian and has written about topics from war to equal pay. Her headlines draw in readers but what does she believe?

In Head Room; The Beliefs Series, James Valentine sits down with high-profile Australians to find out about the fundamental aspect that drives everything they do; their beliefs. Beliefs about god, about work, about raising children, about cats and dogs.Long term ABC Journalist Chris Masters sits down with James Valentine for Episode Nine of Headroom: The Beliefs Series. Growing up in a large family of journalists and media professionals, Chris' beliefs are structured by the pursuit of the truth. How does his work influence his opinion and thoughts on the world?As a storied investigative journalist, Masters is no stranger to controversy or the courts. Most recently, he was defending his work in the much publicised defamation trial against Victoria Cross recipient Ben Roberts Smith. He's since written a book about the experience and has plenty of stories to share.

In Head Room; The Beliefs Series, James Valentine sits down with high-profile Australians to find out about the fundamental aspect that drives everything they do; their beliefs. Beliefs about god, about work, about raising children, about cats and dogs.

On Thank God It's Friday, Richard Glover is joined by Rebecca de Unamuno, Tommy Dean and Tahir as they discuss Qantas' problems, the whoppers told about the whopper, and the removal of gambling signs. Oh, and James Valentine composes an on-the-spot love song for Rebecca.

James Valentine, Colt, and Philip chat about James' journey from Lincoln Nebraska to LA, being obsessed with cardio exercise, pickle ball, and one of Colt's favorite guitars ever designed, the Music Man Valentine. James talks through what it's like to play and write in a global band that has painted the backdrop of moments for so many people with songs played at the pool, television, radio, Target, etc. Maroon 5 is everywhere. So, what's that like?

As part of our Earth Day celebration in partnership with Studio Green @ ASCAP, we talk to James Valentine, founding member, songwriter and lead guitarist for one of the biggest bands on the planet - three-time Grammy Award winners Maroon 5. James's work with the band has led to more than 135 million albums sold and created a steady stream of hit singles, including “She Will Be Loved,” “This Love,” “Payphone,” “Moves Like Jagger,” “Maps,” “Sugar” and more. James also serves as an advisory board member for REVERB, the non-profit environmental advocacy organization made up of music creators and music lovers who are working to create a better future for people and the planet through actions on the road, at concerts and beyond. James discusses how he and Maroon 5 have worked with REVERB on tour since 2005 and how REVERB artist expeditions to the rainforests of Guatemala and Peru has helped him raise awareness about the harmful effects of deforestation on people and the environment. We also talk to independent music entrepreneur, author and Relix magazine publisher Peter Shapiro and how he has made sustainability a core part of his career, from creating and owning music venues like Brooklyn Bowl to producing over 10,000 shows, including concerts such as 2015's Fare Thee Well: Celebrating 50 Years of the Grateful Dead and 2010's Earth Day 40th Anniversary climate rally and concert featuring The Roots on the National Mall. Find out the latest on Maroon 5 Welcome to Studio Green @ ASCAP Check out REVERB, leaders of the green music movement Watch excerpts from Instruments of Change

Ryan Dusick is the founding drummer of Maroon 5, an Associate Marriage & Family Therapist (AMFT), and the author of the book "Harder to Breathe - A Memoir of Making Maroon 5, Losing It All, and Finding Recovery." In 1994, Ryan Dusick joined friends Adam Levine, Jesse Carmichael, and Mickey Madden to form the band Kara's Flowers. They released the album The Fourth World in '97. Following the termination of their record deal, the band went on hiatus and everyone went their separate ways. In 2001, Dusick reunited with Levine, Madden and Carmichael. They were joined by former Square guitarist James Valentine. The group changed their name to Maroon 5 and set to work writing new songs for what would become the award winning album Songs About Jane. After departing from Maroon 5 and years of struggling with physical and mental health challenges, Ryan finally overcame in 2016, when he began his journey of recovery, culminating in a new life path. Ryan has recently released an intimate, behind-the-scenes look at his journey from the highs of international superstardom to the depths of addiction, anxiety, chronic injury, and depression. His book Harder to Breathe chronicles Ryan's remarkable recovery and his transition from the music industry to professional counseling where he's helped hundreds of clients overcome mental and physical health challenges. – Today I am joined by Ryan to discuss his musical journey, addiction, identity and his new book release ‘Harder to Breathe.' – Ryan Dusick and “Kara's Flowers' aka ‘Maroon 5' Evolution of the Band Anxiety, Addiction, Coping, and Recovery Finding Personal Identity after Maroon 5 Writing ‘Harder to Breath” as Self Reflection + Finding Purpose in Life – Check out his latest book release ‘Harder to Breath”' available everywhere! - Use our code for 30% off your first year's membership with DistroKid. http://distrokid.com/vip/thesetup. As always, when you distribute your music to DSPs with DistroKid, they never take a cut. You & your collaborators get 100% of the earnings. – If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 30 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews! -- For show notes, transcripts and past guests, please visit thesetupseries.com Want to meet our guests? Join our community (“Set Up Set List") at thesetupseries.com/community --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thesetupseries/message

Since it's inception, evolutionary theory has remained controversial for many. Although one might think only uneducated laypeople find the idea unpalatable, quite a sizeable minority of scientists too struggle to come to terms with Darwinism. In today's episode, Will Barlow explores a number of major scientific objections to evolution, including the Cambrian explosion, mutations as an insufficient mechanism, irreducible complexity, and the fossil record itself. Additionally, he briefly explores the issue of abiogenesis--the presumed starting point for any evolutionary development. Listen to this episode on Spotify or Apple Podcasts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdx6kuhRqQY&feature=emb_imp_woyt See below for notes. —— Links —— We are doing follow-up discussions to these episodes on YouTube. Check them out! See other episodes in this Scripture and Science Class Check out Barlow's previous podcast episodes Learn more about and support the church Barlow and his team are starting in Louisville, KY, called Compass Christian Church Find more articles and audios by Barlow on his website: Study Driven Faith Support Restitutio by donating here Designate Restitutio as your charity of choice for Amazon purchases Join our Restitutio Facebook Group and follow Sean Finnegan on Twitter @RestitutioSF Leave a voice message via SpeakPipe with questions or comments and we may play them out on the air Intro music: Good Vibes by MBB Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-SA 3.0) Free Download / Stream: Music promoted by Audio Library. Who is Sean Finnegan?  Read his bio here —— Notes —— Scientific Objections to Evolution • Evidence problems (open scientific questions)• Methodological problems• Evolution or design? Evidence Problems The theory of evolution has several major open problems that are yet to be solved: • The Cambrian Explosion• Mutations The Cambrian Explosion Much of the fossil record could be viewed in a light to support evolution, but the Cambrian Explosion poses a big problem: • The theory of evolution requires slow changes over a long time• Cambrian explosion was a big change in a short period of time Simply put, what is the Cambrian explosion? • Evolution would predict species would diverge and lead to new genera, families, orders, classes, and then phyla• Most animal phyla (and many major classes within them) appear fully formed in the Cambrian period “According to modern paleontologists James Valentine, Stanley Awramik, Philip Signor, and Peter Sadler, the appearance of the major animal phyla near the beginning of the Cambrian is ‘the single most spectacular phenomenon evident in the fossil record.'”— Jonathan Wells, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design, page 16. Some scientists have suggested that pre-Cambrian organisms might be too delicate to make good fossils • Recent scientific discoveries have shown that this is untrue• Scientists have found fossils in the Cambrian period that are small and soft tissued Mutations Mutations are considered incredibly important to the evolutionary framework: • Recall that as populations are isolated and different conditions exist, random mutations lead to speciation (according to evolution)• Recent studies on mutation have challenged this understanding “Rather than mutations building up molecular machinery, improving an organism relentlessly, many mutations actually destroyed parts of a creature's DNA, or rendered some of the molecular machinery it coded for ineffective. It turns out that some of the mutations which break things can sometimes have a salutary effect.”— Michael Behe, “God and Evolution,” God is Great, God is Good, page 86. Mutations that break genes can have a positive effect. For example: • If a child receives the gene for sickle cell anemia from one parent and not the other, that child will experience more resistance to malaria Evolutionist Richard Lenski and his team observed a situation in bacteria where two successive mutations improved the survivability of the bacteria.However, there is one problem… “The first mutations to help were the breaking of genes. The bacteria rapidly lost the ability to make the sugar ribose (a component of RNA); for some reason that helped the mutant bacteria compete against non-mutants. A handful of other genes involved in metabolism were also deleted. Some bacteria had their ability to repair DNA badly damaged. Most bacteria lost the ability to metabolize the sugar maltose.” “The mutations were incoherent, scattered in different genes, with no recognizable theme among them. They were not in the process of building any new system in the cell. They simply took advantage of opportunities that helped them grow faster in their current milieu. This is what random mutation does, even when it ‘helps.'”— Michael Behe, “God and Evolution,” God is Great, God is Good, page 89. Methodological Problems The theory of evolution has many methodological problems: • Misleading Evidence for evolution• Irreducible complexity• The fossil record• Origin of life Misleading Evidence for Evolution Proponents of evolution have used several pieces of misleading information: • Haeckel's embryos• Miller's origin of life experiment Haeckel's Embryos If you look at many scientific textbooks, you will find a drawing of Haeckel's embryos.The problem is that they are fake! Miller's Experiment Stanley Miller conducted a series of experiments in 1953 to demonstrate that life could spontaneously arise: • Miller used an atmosphere of hydrogen, methane, ammonia, and water vapor — and life appeared!• However, that atmosphere is not the scientifically accepted atmosphere Irreducible Complexity “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.”— Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species Michael Behe (professor of biochemistry) believes that there are many examples that violate Darwin's principles.He calls these “irreducibly complex” things “machines.” An “irreducibly complex” system is “a single system which is composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning.”— Behe, Darwin's Black Box, page 39. Behe uses an example from modern life to explain what he means by an “irreducibly complex” system: a mousetrap.Can a mousetrap work without a hammer, spring, or platform? Behe give many examples in his book of systems that, from a biochemical perspective, are irreducibly complex: • Blood clotting• Bacterial flagellum Responses to Behe: • Collins says that most of Behe's examples may have plausible solutions in the future• Dawkins argues that there is not an “all or nothing” nature to certain examples Behe gives• Lenski's experiment showed that bacteria could see successive mutations (two-step machine) The Fossil Record What about the fossil record? It is perhaps the only place where we can scientifically observe speciation (the change in species over time).Jonathan Wells challenges the fossil record. Imagine that you dig in your backyard and find two skeletons! They are both dated to 30 years ago. One is adult sized and the other is half of that.Can you assume a familial relationship? We can apply this type of critical thinking to the fossil record. Just because two fossil specimens look like they are related does not make them related. Consider archaeopteryx. Is it half-bird, half-reptile? Does it fit in the gap that evolutionists want?It does not. The supposed reptilian precursors to this animal are found after it in the fossil record. “We are not even authorized to consider the exceptional case of the archaeopteryx as a true link. By link, we mean a necessary stage of transition between classes such as reptiles and birds, or between smaller groups. An animal displaying characters belonging to two different groups cannot be treated as a true link as long as the intermediary stages have not been found, and as long as the mechanisms of the transition remain unknown.”—Pierre Lecomte du Nouy, cited in Strobel, The Case for a Creator, page 58. Origin of Life Remember that evolution does not describe the origin of life — the theory begins when life begins.However, it is interesting to challenge abiogenesis theories in conjunction with evolution. Challenges to abiogenesis theories: • The probability of randomly producing a “simple” protein are astronomically low• No natural selection available before life begins Evolution or Design? What is the best conclusion given the evidence? • If we believe in evolution, it still could be consistent with God-designed life and guidance.• If we don't believe in evolution, there is strong evidence for design in the living beings around us.• Either way, atheism doesn't do the best job of explaining the evidence.

On this week's episode of Own the Microphone, Bridgett McGowen welcomes the million dollar manifest coach, bestselling author, and international speaker who helps heart-centered women entrepreneurs become 6- and 7-figure business owners, James Valentine. Bridgett and James discuss how to start as a speaker, speaking your truth, knowing your worth, and more! Visit https://manifestmindsetcoach-20096382.hs-sites.com/website-page-book-a-session for a complimentary discovery call with James.   Connect with James at jvalentine@manifestmindsetcoach.com   1:00   How did James become the speaker that he is? 5:00   How can speakers get into their comfort zone?   8:40   What can James tell the listeners about the power of speaking?   12:50   Do you need to have experience to feel limitless?   17:20   What is the most common topic that James speaks on?   18:58   A question for Bridgett.   23:26   What else do listeners need to know in order to own the microphone?     Listen and Subscribe to the Own the Microphone Podcast with Bridgett McGowen on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, and the CLNS Media Network mobile app.  

My guest for this episode is Ryan Dusick. Ryan is the founding drummer of Maroon 5, an Associate Marriage & Family Therapist, and author of Harder to Breathe: A Memoir of Making Maroon 5, Losing It All, and Finding Recovery (out November 2022). In 1994, Ryan Dusick joined friends Adam Levine, Jesse Carmichael, and Mickey Madden to form the band Kara's Flowers. They released the album The Fourth World in '97. Following the termination of their record deal, the band went on hiatus and everyone went their separate ways.  In 2001, Dusick reunited with Levine, Madden and Carmichael. They were joined by former Square guitarist James Valentine. The group changed their name to Maroon 5 and set to work writing new songs for what would become the award winning album Songs About Jane.  The band scored several hit singles, was named Best New Artist at the 47th Grammy Awards and in 2006 won the Grammy for Best Pop Performance by a Duo or Group, with Vocal for the live version of This Love.  Ryan is now releasing an intimate, behind-the-scenes look at his journey from the highs of international superstardom to the depths of addiction, anxiety, chronic injury, and depression. His book Harder to Breathe chronicles Ryan's remarkable recovery and his transition from the music industry to professional counseling where he's helped hundreds of clients overcome mental and physical health challenges. He is indeed a true success story and wholly dedicated to sharing the message that recovery is not only achievable but that life after addiction can yield incredible results. I so enjoyed speaking with him about his music journey and renewed outlook on life. You can find Ryan on Instagram @ryan_michael_dusick. Please enjoy! This episode is brought to you by the Morning Tempo podcast, a podcast on which yours truly attempts to explore the intersection between busines and creativity. This month's featured "Best Of" episode is a conversation with me and author Angie K. Love. Hear this and other Morning Tempo episodes on Apple Podcasts. Support the Unstarving Musician The Unstarving Musician exists solely through the generosity of its listeners, readers, and viewers. Learn how you can offer your support. This episode was powered by Music Marketing Method, a program for independent musicians looking to grow their music career. Music Marketing Method was created by my good friend Lynz Crichton. I'm in the program and I'm learning tons! I'm growing my fan base and learning about many ways that I'll be earning money in the new year. It's also helping me grow this podcast. How cool is that? To lean more and find out if Music Marketing Method can help your music career, visit UnstarvingMusician.com/MusicMarketing. Mentioned in this Episode Ben Bella Books Harder to Breathe: A Memoir of Making Maroon 5, Losing It All, and Finding Recovery by Ryan Dusick Kara's Flowers New Gods Part 2 by Robonzo (music video) Resources The Unstarving Musician's Guide to Getting Paid Gigs, by Robonzo Music Marketing Method – The program that helps musicians find fans, grow an audience and make consistent income Podcast Startup – The podcast learning platform for creative voices Bandzoogle – The all-in-one platform that makes it easy to build a beautiful website for your music More Resources for musicians Pardon the Interruption (Disclosure)  Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means I make a small commission, at no extra charge to you, if you purchase using those links. Thanks for your support! Visit UnstarvingMusician.com to sign up for Liner Notes to learn what I'm learning from the best indie musicians and music industry professionals. Stay in touch! @RobonzoDrummer on Twitter  and  Instagram @UnstarvingMusician on Facebook  and  YouTube