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Recently, Sarah was working with a BDM (salesperson) who believed she was ready to hire a sales setter to help with some of the sales outreach and follow up. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss how to know when you need to hire a sales setter and things you can do to increase your sales volume without one. You'll Learn [00:43] The Importance of Having Sales Metrics and Data  [05:45] Setting Your Salesperson Up for Success [07:57] More Volume = More Results [09:47] The Two Main Components of Sales Quotables “There are certain things that we're gauging all the time in our business, but I think sales has to be probably number one.” “ You have a BDM and they're good at sales and you have them doing anything other than sales, you are making a very stupid mistake because that's the lifeblood of the business.” “Just do more of the things that you should be doing and you'll get more results.” “If something's not working, you just got to not tolerate it.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: I bet you, you can just get more results by doing more work, which means stop doing the other things that you're doing. [00:00:05] Sarah: Just do more of the things that you should be doing and you'll get more results. And then you can probably don't even need to pay a setter. [00:00:12] Jason: We are Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. And we're going to keep this episode a little brief, so I'm going to skip some of our intro. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:31] Jason: We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change the perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show.  [00:00:41] Jason: Alright. What are we chatting about today?  [00:00:43] Sarah: Alright. I wanted to talk about this just because I think it happens a lot in business and we have to just kind of gauge, right? So there are certain things that we're gauging all the time in our business, but I think sales has to be probably number one. So one of our clients had asked me last week on the scale call she's a BDM, so she does all the sales and she said, "Hey, we are actually thinking about hiring an appointment setter. And they will kind of help with a lot of the outbound calls and you know, the follow up and the scheduling and you know, rescheduling any appointments and just kind of like staying on top of things and making sure that everything is being tracked and, you know, moving forward and doing a whole bunch of outbound calls." [00:01:36] Sarah: That's really what setters do is they just sit and call all day long. Yeah. So she says, "yeah, we're thinking about hiring this sales setter, and I want to know what you think about it." So the first thing I did is I was like, okay, if you actually need a sales setter, then like, here's the Rdoc and that's great. [00:01:56] Sarah: Like, we would hire a sales setter...  [00:01:58] Jason: which is a job description for those unfamiliar.  [00:02:00] Sarah: Yes. So we would hire a sales setter the same way that we would hire A BDM. Mm-hmm. I always recommend going through the DoorGrow Hiring process, but before we really dig into the hiring piece is we should first figure out is this actually something that you need right now? [00:02:16] Sarah: So one of the tools that we have for our clients in our client workbook is a sales tracker, and I happened to pull up the sales tracker for them just out of curiosity. And lucky for me, she had actually filled it out. So my one recommendation is for whoever is doing sales, and if it's multiple people, then that's fine. Multiple people need to then fill out the sales tracker. So fill out the sales tracker at the end of every single day. This is like your end of day report.  [00:02:42] Sarah: If you have two BDMs, then they both need to be doing it. If you have a, BDM and a setter, they both need to be doing it. It doesn't matter. [00:02:50] Sarah: Every single sales person needs to be filling out and submitting their own data and metrics. So I said, well, let me look through your sales tracker. Now, she did not have it filled out consistently every day. There were some days that she had it filled out. There were some days that were not filled out. [00:03:07] Sarah: And then there were some days that had pretty solid data, and there were some days that had like, you know, "I did three to four hours," or "I did, you know, six to eight appointments." Well, is it six, is it seven or is it eight? So don't give me like the range, give me the actual raw data. So I was looking through this, and even with the data that she had in there, I was able to kind of make an assessment. [00:03:31] Sarah: I said, "listen, if this was my business, I would not be, at this point in time, I would not be looking at hiring a sales setter. The reason being is that with the resources that we currently have, which is A BDM, what we need to do is just turn up the volume for the BDM. And once that BDM is totally maxed out, then we can look to see, hey, do we actually need some additional support? [00:03:59] Sarah: And that might be a sales setter. So what I was noticing, and now she's a newer hire. She's been there only a few months and she's doing a great job so far. So. The early on data, she was still in training and onboarding and learning and kind of testing and figuring things out. And you could see that as you go down the list, the later the date, the better results that she was getting. [00:04:24] Sarah: So in the very beginning, she was maybe doing like half an hour or 45 minutes a day, and later on in the list she was doing, you know, one to two hours and then she was doing three to four hours. And then she tends to do about four hours a day on average now. And then same thing with phone calls. [00:04:41] Sarah: You know, she would do, you know, a couple of phone calls in the beginning and then later on down in the data you would see, hey, she was doing more phone calls, she was getting, doing more time. She was doing more phone calls. She was setting more appointments, and therefore some things were starting to close. [00:04:58] Sarah: But what I could also see is that she is not fully maxed out.  [00:05:01] Jason: Right.  [00:05:01] Sarah: So if we have a BDM who is full-time, meaning at least 30, maybe even 40 hours a week, and they're doing four hours per day, that's like 20 hours a week. So that's like part-time BDM work. Yeah. So then what is happening with the rest of the time? [00:05:18] Sarah: So I said, "first of all, anything that you are doing at all that does not have to do with sales, cut it out immediately. Stop it. If you're on like client success meetings, because the property manager was also on that call." Yeah. So, and I know that they work in tandem. They work as a team, which is really great. [00:05:34] Sarah: Like the team culture there is fantastic. But when you're dragging the salespeople into the customer service side.  [00:05:42] Jason: Big mistake.  [00:05:43] Sarah: You're costing yourself so much money.  [00:05:45] Jason:  I want to comment on that just real quick. I mean, everybody listening, if you have anybody in your organization that's good at sales, whether it's you that should be doing the sales and you don't have anyone else to do it, and you're the business owner, or you have a BDM and they're good at sales and you have them doing anything other than sales, you are making a very stupid mistake because that's the lifeblood of the business. They feed the business, they pay everybody else's salary. They're the only people that bring money, fresh money into the business. And they should not be dabbling as a property manager. They should not be dabbling as a leasing agent. They should not be dabbling or picking up slack for anybody else. [00:06:27] Jason: No. Hire other people if you need to, but get your salesperson spending full time spending their time on sales if they're good and they will make you a lot of money. And having them do anything else is a massive waste of a resource.  [00:06:40] Sarah: Absolutely. I've said it like this before, if you have a star quarterback on a football team, do you want that quarterback doing any other, like playing any other position? [00:06:50] Jason: I like that analogy.  [00:06:51] Sarah: Do you want them kicking? Do you want them walking? Do you want them to be a tight end?  [00:06:54] Jason: No, there'd be dumb. No.  [00:06:56] Sarah: Why? Why on earth would you do that? No. If I've got somebody who can hurl that ball with pinpoint precision and accuracy to any spot on the field at will... [00:07:08] Jason: don't make them a kicker. [00:07:09] Sarah: I got to preserve that resource. And then I'm like, that's literally the only thing you're going to do.  [00:07:14] Jason: The kickers, kick. That's all the kickers do. The kickers do one thing. They just kick the ball's. That's it, and they're not used very often. Like, it would be ridiculous to say, "you know what, kicker, why don't you also occasionally be our backup quarterback?" [00:07:26] Jason: Like, you're second string now. Like, it just, it doesn't make sense. If he could be a quarterback, he would not be a kicker.  [00:07:32] Sarah: Right.  [00:07:33] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:33] Sarah: Yeah. So I said, anything that you're doing that is not sales, stop it immediately. Like today. Don't stop it. Monday. Stop it today. Okay. That's it, period. That's number one. [00:07:43] Sarah: Then number two, we need to just get more time out of you. So if you're doing, you know, four hours a day, what's the rest of your time being spent doing? So we just needed, we need to spend more time and then we just need to increase the number of calls. So she actually happens to be in my accountability group. So that call was Friday. Every Monday, we have a telegram group that it's real quick, it's just an accountability group. We set a personal goal and a professional goal for the upcoming week, and then we give updates on the previous week. And her goal for monday, like this past Monday was to do a minimum of 100 calls per day after our call on Friday. [00:08:24] Sarah: Which is awesome because I said, "you have to increase the volume. Yeah. So that you can get more results. And then once we have the volume increased so much that you cannot add anymore. You are absolutely maxed out. You can't add more time without, you know, working like 80 hours a week. [00:08:40] Sarah: We can't add more time. We can't do more calls. We can't possibly like squeeze any more, you know, blood from the stone. Now I know you're maxed out. Now it might make sense to look at either hiring another BDM or hiring a setter.  [00:08:55] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:55] Sarah: But right now, you are not maxed out. All you need to do is just increase your volume so that you can get more results, because I bet you, you can just get more results by doing more work, which means stop doing the other things that you're doing. [00:09:06] Sarah: Just do more of the things that you should be doing and you'll get more results. And then you can probably don't even need to pay a setter.  [00:09:14] Jason: Yeah. So we have three setters. Yesterday they made 200 calls between the three of them. And they each booked... on a Monday.... they each... yeah, on a Monday, which is hard for property manager, for property managers.  [00:09:24] Sarah: Come on. [00:09:24] Jason: And they each booked a one appointment, which is pretty good. But that's a lot of calls. And we have a lot of other growth engines installed at DoorGrow, but we're getting almost 300 calls a day. And we'll probably add some more setters, but like, we're doing outreach and so this is the game. [00:09:41] Jason: This is the game. And if you're not putting in the numbers, but you're like, "maybe it's not working," you don't get the game. Yeah.  [00:09:47] Sarah: So my big thing is there's two things. There are two main components of sales, and almost every single, if not every single problem that you have in sales. It all boils down to one of these two things I can almost guarantee it. [00:10:02] Sarah: One is volume, and two is AB testing. That's all sales is, and if you fix your volume and you AB test everything to optimize for best results, you will never have a sales problem.  [00:10:15] Jason: Yeah.  [00:10:15] Sarah: So that's what we figure out here at DoorGrow, how to have people optimize, AB testing and volume. And that's why our clients can get the results that they're able to. [00:10:26] Sarah: That's why our clients can get results that other people aren't able to. They're like, oh, I'm doing like all these calls. I'm doing all this stuff. Yeah, but you're not doing it. Either you're not doing enough or you're not AB testing the right way. And you're not using the right strategies. [00:10:38] Sarah: Yeah. I mean everything. Like, listen, I can give you a list of, you know, a thousand people and you can call them your way and we can call them our way and we'll get better results. Why? Because we've AB tested everything. Yeah. So it's always, it's either volume or AB testing. Yeah. [00:10:51] Sarah: Those two things. And you will never have a sales problem again.  [00:10:55] Jason: If something's not working, you just got to not tolerate it. That's the problem, is at each stage there's things that are not working if you're not getting deals, and if you don't change what's not working and you keep doing it the same way, you're going to keep getting the same result. And so this is what we coach on. We're like, cool. You need to fix that step now, this step in the pipeline, now this step. And until you get everything dialed in, it's not really working. But once you get the whole growth engine built out, it's all unclogged, the water's flowing, then you're making money. [00:11:25] Jason: And that's why I say it's the last 10% of getting things dialed in that gives you 90% of the results. All right.  [00:11:31] Sarah: All right.  [00:11:31] Jason: Okay, so if you felt stuck or stagnant and want to take your property management business to the next level, reach out to us at doorgrow.com. You can also join our free community at doorgrowclub.com, our Facebook group. [00:11:43] Jason: And if you found this even a little bit helpful, help us out. Don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a review. We'd really appreciate it. And until next time, remember, the slowest path to growth is to do it alone. So let's grow together. Bye everyone. 

These days, you aren't limited to the area your business is located when looking for great team members. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Laith Masarweh from Assistantly to talk about how hiring VAs can help you scale your business. You'll Learn [01:34] Creating an Offshore Talent Acquisition Company  [09:38] Importance of a People Process  [16:11] Virtual Executive Assistants and Operators [24:57] Finding Your Unicorn Tweetables  ” Having community and good compensation definitely is going to allow you to attract and have the best people.” “ If you are operating your business, you are not growing your business.” “ When you have good people, they help other good people grow.” “ The bottleneck is you.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Laith: When you have good people, they help other good people grow.  [00:00:03] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:23] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management, growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:04] Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:07] All right. So my guest today is Laith. Laith, tell me how to say your last name. So I don't butcher it.  [00:01:13] Laith: It's all good, man. It's Masarweh.  [00:01:15] Jason: Masarweh. All right. Laith Masarweh. And awesome to have you here on the show. So in this episode, we're going to dive into the power of offshore talent, explore how businesses from startups to fortune 500s can unlock exponential growth. [00:01:31] And you run a company called Assistantly. Which I've heard great things about. You came highly recommended by one of my mentors, Sharran Srivatsa a, who runs a multi billion dollar real estate company called Real. And so tell me like a little bit about your background. [00:01:48] How'd you get into this? How did you get into entrepreneurism? [00:01:51] Yeah.  [00:01:54] Laith: I mean, I think I always had the entrepreneur inspiration since I was a kid. My dad always had like a small business that he was running and, you know, it made me want to be an entrepreneur from a young age. [00:02:03] He used to have me working in the grocery store shop since I was eight years old and it was cool to kind of develop, I guess, my like interpersonal and just learning more about the business at a, you know, such a young age and, you know, I knew I wanted to start my own business. I didn't know what I wanted to start it in. [00:02:18] Of course, you know, I attended Chapman University. I went to the business school. I thought I was into like virtual reality and tech. Didn't really know what my fit was. Got into corporate after college. I knew that wasn't a fit, even though I tried it. Didn't really work very well and then I started a real estate marketing company here in Orange County, California where we help agents, brokers whether you're residential, commercial, property management you know, we just have done what's like real estate marketing needs and during the pandemic, we got extremely busy and You know, we couldn't, there's too much demand and our team was super small and somebody was like, Hey, you should hire a virtual assistant. [00:02:53] And I thought that was like an AI robot and I didn't understand what that was. And I never learned about offshoring in college or any of that kind of stuff. And I got introduced to somebody thought she was local. She ended up being in the Philippines. I was like blown out of my mind because I've actually been working with her for years thinking she was in Irvine, California, but she was actually in the Philippines the entire time. [00:03:12] Our time I had, you could not tell any difference. And then I kind of got the spark in my head and I go, man, I work with so many real estate professionals, you know, and they're always asking me for help, whether it's administrative or operations or marketing. And I, you know, when I asked this girl, Hey, how many people are highly skilled, great communication skills, you know, looking for employment, like you? And she goes, I don't know, maybe like hundreds of thousands. And I said, hundreds of thousands, there's hundreds of thousands of talented people like you? And she goes, Oh yeah. And it kind of just clicked in my head. I'm like, Oh, People need this and it can't just be me. [00:03:45] And I pretty much started Assistantly 45 minutes after learning what offshoring was didn't know anything about it. And I'm just like, let me go, you know, I'll send it and kind of see kind of test it out, pilot it with a couple of my, you know, people in my network. And four years later, here we are. [00:03:58] And we started this obviously real estate, property management, law, tech, healthcare, finance, a little bit of everything.  [00:04:04] Jason: Yeah. All right. Awesome. So, so let's get into this. I mean, there's a lot of challenges that people have with this and everybody's had, I mean, a lot of property managers have tested the waters of working with, you know, VAs in the Philippines or maybe Mexico and there's kind of mixed feelings about how that's gone. If you've done this at all, you've had some bad experiences and maybe some good ones. And so it can be really difficult. And so you're kind of at the mercy, if you're using a company like yours or some third party company, you're kind of at the mercy of their hiring process to some degree. [00:04:43] And some of these vendors that provide VAs have better hiring processes than others. Some of them, you know, they all claim, Hey, we've got amazing talent or they all might sound American, you know, but then you end up kind of getting somebody that has a heavy accent. They aren't showing up, you know, on time or they just disappear and ghost you because they're non confrontational sometimes in the Philippines or some of these sort of issues, and I'm sure you see, you see some of this, right. [00:05:13] How do you kind of do things you think maybe differently at Assistantly versus some of these other players in the marketplace  [00:05:22] Laith: Yes, it's a great question, you know, obviously I started off, you know, really when I got into the industry I started hiring these people on my own whether they're from like people going to the upworks or the fivers of the world or like job boards and to like Interview a whole bunch of candidates to understand where they're located in the Philippines. [00:05:38] Like what type of equipment do they have? You Internet connection speeds. Do they really have that much experience? You know, because people obviously, whether you're US, Philippines, anywhere, they will always oversell on an interview or a resume. There's a lot of things that we do on like on our end. [00:05:52] So like, number one you taught me this and I think we had a conversation when we were, when I met you in Franklin about like that job description is so important when sourcing somebody, right? You know, everybody obviously wants a job, but you want to essentially attract people that are like, you know, that's their zone of genius, and they're passionate about it. [00:06:10] That's why we actually follow the four R's that Jason taught us a long time ago. And it's something that we actually, it's really important. The first step is crafting the job description to compel to candidates. So they're actually passionate and interested about it. So that's number one, filling that top of the funnel. [00:06:25] Number two, there's, you know, there's obviously a series of interviews. You can't just have one interview. We did multiple interviews. But like, I think obviously experience matters, of course. Like I want people that are mid to senior level that know what they're doing. If they're in property management, you know, I want, you know, helping with like property admin stuff, tenant communication daily operations through Appfolio. [00:06:42] Like I look for those types of things, of course. But also like, what's really important to me is like, when working with the client, like, you know, your personality and your culture is very different than my other, you know, than client Jamie or client James. Right. And I think that's very important when finding the right match. [00:06:58] And we do like a personality culture assessment that we built ourself to essentially line them up with like whatever role, whether it's an admin operations or marketing role to really understand what type of person they are, but like beyond just their experience. We also verify references like, right. [00:07:12] You know, because again, people could say, Hey, I worked somewhere for seven years. How do you know that? Right. You know, I put, I see people put like they went to Harvard on there. I mean, how do I know they went to Harvard? And it's those things that you've got to cross check, call references. I think that's super important. [00:07:27] But then we also vet out like equipment. Do they have 2020 and newer equipment? Because that's a big slowdown in the Philippines and like Mexico and a lot of these countries. When people go, my team member is so slow. Well, their equipment is from 2002. Like, of course, it's very slow, you know, or their internet connection is very slow. [00:07:44] Like, we vet out those types of things, which I think are very important. You know, so between like the job description, the interviews, the proprietary personality assessment, the reference checks you know, we've obviously sourced for these positions thousands of times, so like, we really know what makes an A level player slash we call them unicorns here at Assistantly. Unicorn meaning they're rare, not meaning they can do everything, you know, in the kitchen sink. But like those are things that we go kind of, you know, beyond our measures. Plus, like also one really important thing, whether you hire from us or you hire offshore is it's not just compensation that matters. [00:08:14] Like we, we give the highest compensation in the industry. But people really want a sense of community. That's what we built out a system where they feel supported, they feel loved, they feel cared for, we give really good benefits. And that's why like our retention is like, I think I've maybe what in four years, there's been like two people who leave. [00:08:31] And you know, and that was just for family emergency, not because they didn't like their job. So, but a couple of things to know.  [00:08:37] Jason: Yeah, I think that's really powerful. Having community and good compensation definitely is going to allow you to attract and have the best people. Yeah, and you mentioned like R docs like for us. Yeah. I got the four R's concept I got from one of my mentors Alex Charfen and then I started adding more R's to it because I was like this is I like And like, like the most significant, I've talked about this before on the show for those listening when hiring to attract the right personality type is this resonate section at the beginning where we describe the personality that would naturally love doing this. So that they can resonate with this, they read and go, Oh my gosh, that's me, which is way better than somebody going I would be willing to do this if you pay me enough, like, you know, that's a very different type of team member. And I think this goes back to regardless for those listening, I think anyone that is going to use any sort of company to collapse time on hiring, eventually every business needs their own hiring process internally. Even if I use Assistantly or other companies to get a team member, I'm still going to put them through my stuff, my process because I trust my process. And this is one of the things we do at DoorGrow is help our clients install a really good hiring mechanism. We just had a client come on board who was a past client. We'd helped clean up their branding, website, and now he's like at 200, 300 doors or something. And he just had total team turnover twice in the last six months. [00:10:06] He's on his third team in a six month period. And before that he said, life was amazing. He had this great virtual team. He had this person that was like trained or educated as a lawyer that was running everything. And then he lost that person. They went and found an actual law job. And then chaos started to ensue because he realized that person was so great. [00:10:25] They were carrying the entire team. And then he had no mechanism for knowing how to effectively hire or replace a team quickly. He had no real hiring machine. And what I've noticed, even in the largest companies, I've talked to people I talked to a guy the other day with 800 units, loves his business, doesn't want to change anything super comfortable. [00:10:45] And then I asked him questions about, you know, people, planning, and process, you know, what we call our super system. And he realized he didn't have a hiring mechanism and I could tell he got scared, like, and you know, people don't realize they're vulnerable when it comes to this, but they've built their team usually through a decade of Russian roulette. [00:11:04] And they finally have a great team, great culture. He's like, I've got great team. I trust them. Great culture. I'm like, cool. If you lost one of those key people, what would you do? You could see like panic sets in, right? He's like, well, yeah, I don't know, I guess. And so, I feel confident in my own business. [00:11:19] Even though everybody on my team, I feel like is like really great culture of it. I really care about them and they're really important. Some of them I've had a long time. If I lost any one of them because I have good process documentation, I know that I could get somebody else in to do that work pretty well pretty quickly to do the job. [00:11:40] But I know even more than that, I have way more safety and security and confidence as an entrepreneur. With the business because I know because of my hiring process I could get the right person relatively fast like within at least 30 days. I could have somebody else in play to be doing that may be as good at their role or better because usually if I lose a team member, it's because they kind of either the business outgrows them or they've outgrown the business, but there's like, they're no longer that culture fit maybe. [00:12:11] And then they leave, which is cool. Then I can go find somebody that's even better. And I, over time at DoorGrow, either my team members have leveled up, like I've had Adam for over a decade or I level up the team members like by getting new ones. Yeah.  [00:12:27] Laith: Well, there's different people for different phases of growth, right? [00:12:30] You know, you get to the zero 1 to 5 million, you get to the 10 million, you know, we've changed our team and it's evolved. I mean, I've had people that have been with me since I started instantly, but then there have been people like client success I think we should upload this position maybe with somebody with an ops background because they understand the client a little bit more. [00:12:47] And I just did that recently and I'm like, Oh my God, game changer. Like, you know, client success, having an ops brain, they can go and help our clients and say, Hey, you should think of things very differently. I also think like a misconception, like talking about the your example, because like one. [00:13:00] You know, one person left the whole team crumbles. If that ever happens and you have the wrong team, right? Because people, you know, I have people that will say, you know, like 20 percent of your team members make 80 percent of the work. I go, maybe at your company, not mine. I go a hundred percent of my team members make a hundred percent of the work. [00:13:16] Why would I have 20? And you know, the magic, I tell my team, Hey, just 20 percent of you guys are making pretty much all the work very consistently. Everybody's like, what the F am I doing here? Then if those 20 percent are taking over the work, like that's not. That's a misconception. Of course you have A level players, but, you know, and I always talk to our internal team about it. [00:13:32] I'm like, Why do we have an A level department here, but a B level department here, but then a C level department here? Like, why can't we all be A level and working towards the same goals and help each other, you know, collaborate. And I think like finding A plus players, they're not easy to find. But like A level players can also help those, let's say B level players become A level players. [00:13:50] Like that's like, that's part of it. When you have good people, they help other good people grow. And I think that's like a huge misconception. It's like, I have this really good person, but then like, I was here, but like the rest of my team is like, okay. I'm like, then you got to switch out your team, you know, keep your A level player, but then you need other A level players. [00:14:05] Cause like, if you're at 3 million in revenue, like you should be at seven and a half million with the right team, you know, and I see that even with my own thing is like when I switch out somebody, whether it's ops or client success or recruitment, I do this all the time. And I up level, Oh dude, like, I'm like, man, this is what heaven and unicorns and rainbows look like. [00:14:23] You know, I don't even have to worry about any of this stuff. They're just taking care of it. They own it. And that's where like the zone of genius comes in. Yeah. Yeah, because you want with that resonate section, right? You want people to be like, that's me. I want to work there so bad. Like, that's exactly what I want to do all day. [00:14:39] And people are like, really, you want to go through Appfolio all day? Like, that's what you want to do? And people were like, yes, I love Appfolio. I want to go through leases. I want to go, you know, coordinate with maintenance requests. Like there are people like that, that just because you don't enjoy it, which I don't blame you, you're an entrepreneur, owner, founder, whatever you are. [00:14:56] There are people that are like, that's my bread and butter. I got it. It's easy for me and I like to do it. And like that zone of genius, like if you could find people that go, I'm passionate about it, it energizes me, it makes me feel good. That's how you get A level players. Not somebody that's like, I'm good at it, but it's like a vampire sucked in my tongue. [00:15:13] Jason: Yeah, I call that them being a personality fit. Like if they're the, they resonate, they're the right personality fit for it. If they're the right culture fit, they'll believe in you and be inspired and want to support you and work for you. And then there's the skill fit, which really is, do they have the intellectual capacity to develop the skill or do they already possess it? [00:15:31] Right. Not everybody can have all three, you know, and if they can't have all three, they're not really going to be a great executive level team member that you can trust to think or make decisions. So then they become, maybe they could be people as process. Like they're like a robot, just do what I tell you to do. [00:15:46] So, and this may be a perception. Is everybody is Assistantly, is it all Filipino hiring? Where is talent sourced from this? [00:15:54] I guess my question.  [00:15:54] Laith: I got you. So externally, it's Philippines and Latin America, Argentina, Colombia, Mexico, and then the Philippines is our talent pool. I've also sourced from like Eastern Europe and different countries, but the Philippines and Latin America are typically the two talent pools in which we pick from. [00:16:11] Jason: So one of the things I've noticed that's a challenge in the property management space for those that are listening, I think there's one of the things I've noticed is that it's really common for entrepreneurs to be miserable in their own businesses, have an entire team, and not have an assistant for themselves. [00:16:28] And it's really mind boggling to me that they build an entire team around themselves and they don't support themselves and they don't have an assistant. So my usual recommendation is their first hire should probably be an assistant. It doubles their capacity immediately and allows them to be more effective at whatever they're doing. [00:16:47] And so that's kind of that first little bridge. I think a lot need to build in order to get to the next levels. They just need an assistant. Maybe around 50 units or something, they need an assistant and that allows them to get to another level. And then the next major, the most important hire that any of these property managers that are visionaries or entrepreneurs could bring into their business would be an operator because this is kind of an opposite personality type to the business owner. [00:17:13] Business owners like to create operational systems, but they don't like to run it. They don't like doing the details they don't like running the planning meetings or you know running the hiring system or building out process documentation. That's not usually the most fun For the entrepreneurs and it's usually that's all the stuff on their to do list that they've been avoiding for like months It's been on their to do list. [00:17:35] I got to do this. I need to do this And what they really need is an operator or an operational person now It can be challenging to find good operators, especially when you're trying to You offshore and stuff like this because you're needing somebody that's a high level of intelligence. They're not going to be this person is process that's just going to follow a to do item list. They need to think they need to make decisions. Is this something that is possible through Assistantly or through offshoring? Is this something you've been able to do even in your own business?  [00:18:05] Laith: Yeah, I mean, I'd say our three highest requested positions are executive assistants, operators, and marketers, right? [00:18:11] And that's typically what I see. And I say, don't get an EA confused with an operator. And I think a lot of people try to, like, kind of intertwine those roles. They're completely different. You know, so when somebody goes, well, I want an EA that has ops background. I'm like, no, what you need is an operator, and then you need, you know, you need an EA. [00:18:25] So EA, then operator. That's how I recommend, very similar. Talking about the EA, and then I'll get into the operators. So. EA, by far, is the number one hire for you, because like you said, it opens up time capacity. It's funny, I've been pitching EAs for four years, it took me three years, I hired an EA not too long ago, even though that's like, you know, what I pitch. [00:18:44] And I'm like, holy shit, dude. I go, I've been pitching this. Why haven't I had an EA? Oh man. I mean, like I've added to her plate for the last, who knows how long, but I mean, from like, if my email inbox every day is at zero, my calendar is always organized, you know, I have research on all my prospects. [00:18:59] I have research on all my meetings before like all prepped ready to go before I get into for the day. All the follow ups for me when, you know, when I talk to a client and I'm trying to close a client on a strategy call, for example, they think it comes from me, it comes from Angie. I don't do any of that stuff. [00:19:14] She creates the portal, she follows up with the client, she nurtures 'em, they close. I don't do anything. She, you know, engages with my LinkedIn for a couple hours a day. She helps with my post writing. She helps with the blogs. She helps with the case studies. She helps with the reviews. She's unbelievable. [00:19:28] And these are all the things that I used to do on my plate, especially that like sales component of like client communication. Dude, that used to take me hours a day, like at least two to three hours a day. Like for me to free up two to three hours a day in my own capacity to go focus on strategy and vision, infinite ROI for me. [00:19:44] Right. So like EAs, like, you know, email calendar management, you know, client prospect communication, CRM management, you know, obviously some light marketing, like light marketing tasks. And then also helping with your personal stuff. Like I go to a lot of conferences, I'm sure you do too. Masterminds, all that kind of jazz, like booking flights, itineraries, hotels, like, All that stuff's taken care of for me. [00:20:05] I don't ever have to worry about it. I check in. I'm in like the first 10, like I check in right at the time. I'm like always in a good seat. I, you know, so that always works out super well. So like, those are just some things in EA can do.  [00:20:16] Jason: Yeah.  [00:20:17] Laith: That I think like number one hire for like both personal and business get like EA, it will change your life. [00:20:22] It's a highest requested position, probably like in the United States, Canada, New Zealand, Australia at the moment is an EA. Like if you don't have an EA, I don't know how, like you're just doing everything on your own and then you're just going to throw it out.  [00:20:35] Jason: Yeah. I love not having to ever look at my email. [00:20:39] It's like my favorite. I like email is the email and having to like calendars and checklists and like these things are the bane of my existence. I love building things, creating things and being able to like coach and support people. And so for me to be able to stay in my area of genius and not have to do the stuff that I don't enjoy, I think it, I think as business owners, we often make the mistake early in the entrepreneur journey of believing that because we're the business owner, we have to be miserable or we have to do certain things like, Oh, well, I'm the business owner. [00:21:15] I have to do my own email or I have to do the accounting piece or I have to do sales or whatever it is you might not enjoy doing. And the reality is you don't have to do anything if you're king or queen of your business. You really don't have to do anything that you don't want to do If once you build the business up to a size where you can build an entire team around you But we usually build the wrong team because we're showing up consistently as the wrong person in the business  [00:21:42] Laith: Well, I always say, the bottleneck is you. [00:21:44] If you really look at it you're the one, you know, you're the one controlling everything. I mean, like you're saying that I got to respond to emails. They don't have my tone of voice. You know how people are going to not think it's me. Really? What? Why is that? I mean, do you look a couple of responses? [00:21:56] I mean, I even had my EA use Claude AI, she mapped, she got my tone dialed in. So if it's emails or blogs, or any of the social media posts, even my LinkedIn and comments and engagement, like people think it's me, she matched it through ai, like she's AI enhanced, like, and I have all that training I give to people on for EAs. [00:22:15] Hey, you want your EA to sound like you? I have it like, here it is. Make it easy for you. Yeah. There's no there, there's no excuses there. Getting into operators, 'cause like that's like, well, okay, ea I get it, they're an assistant level, but like operators, that's a high level role. What does that look like in the Philippines or you know, Latin America? [00:22:32] You can find a good operators, right? But again, operators are different than EAs in the fact we're like, they think of things very macro. They look at the business as a whole and see like where they can streamline things, where they can fill in gaps, where they can like stop the leaking of the holes. They love implementation of systems, implementation of processes, like they like to tweak that kind of stuff and especially property management, you can find really good, you know, operators, like even, I know, again, I'm going to use Appfolio as an example, or whatever, you know, there's a ton of tools out there like you should never be in your tools and platforms. [00:23:04] You should have your operator managing the day to day tasks in your, you know, because that's the whole idea when you hire somebody in offices and manage those day to day things in your business so that you don't have to deal with it. If there's a fire should be your operator that, you know, it should be that type of person to like, Hey I'm taking care of this. [00:23:19] I'm working on the day-to-day type of things. This is kind of high priority. This is medium priority, this is low priority. You know, because when you're operating, if you are operating your business, you are not growing your business 'cause you're the one operating it, right? Like, there's no way you can grow from 50 doors to a hundred doors to 300 doors. [00:23:35] I talked to the guy in Baltimore who just, he's a property management client. But he just came on and he is like, dude, I'm at like 800, 900 doors. But I can't get past a thousand. And I'm like, why? And he goes, well, I'm like working like 18 hours a day. I'm like, why are you working 18 hours a day? [00:23:50] Right? Because he's like, yeah, he's like, well, I'm pretty much the property management of a lot of these things. Yeah. And I'm like why don't you just hire somebody ? He's like naming the tasks, right? Of like, I'm like looking at it like, you know, pre qualifying leads and day to day operations with, you know, interactions with tenants and helping with the maintenance and responding to those maintenance tickets and scheduling the payments and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I'm like, you're doing those for your clients? Why are you doing those for your clients?  [00:24:16] Jason: Yeah, that's like frontline level work. That's like the first exit to make in your business is to exit the frontline work. [00:24:22] Yeah.  [00:24:22] Laith: 100 percent and I'm like, just have somebody like, and that's what I'm saying with the whole operator. Cause like an EA is for you, an operator for your business. That's the difference, right? Like that's, you know, EA for you, operator for your business. And if you have yourself taken care of and you have your business taken care of, are you telling me you don't have capacity to grow your doors and scale and, you know, get to the revenue targets? [00:24:42] Like that's obviously like, once you have those two dialed in, you got time back, you know, you're looking at things, just you know, plugging in where you, you know, you need to, but it's not so much the day to day anymore, which is that's where you feel actually a sense of freedom. [00:24:56] Jason: Yeah, no, I love it. I want all of my clients to get an EA. We surveyed them and we were really surprised how few of them have an assistant. I was like, this is what we teach, but it's hard for them to justify. And they also are their control freaks in the beginning. And it's difficult for them to trust. [00:25:13] But once you have somebody that is a good culture fit, a good personality fit, a good skill fit, it's easy to start to let go of things, it's easy to start to trust. But before that, you shouldn't trust and that's the mistake, they've probably been burned, they brought in the wrong person and they tried to maybe trust and you can't, like, you're not, that's stupid, you're not supposed to trust people that you shouldn't trust. [00:25:36] Laith: And it takes, I mean, look, like I'm a full, honest and transparent person. Like sometimes it takes a couple of people to find your unicorn, right? Like I always say, you go through a couple of donkeys and zebras to get to your unicorn, right? Like it happens like, you know, is your first hire, like when you, whether it's local or offshore going to be your ultimate 10 year hire? I don't know, maybe, you know, hopefully, but maybe not. [00:25:56] And then you hire somebody else. Like I've been burned. Of course. Like I've hired you a Filipino and you've been burnt, but then you find like an Adam, and you're like, dude, this guy is like Lord and Savior to me. I can't function without this guy. And you have to go through the process, you know, because like, again, you being the bottleneck, if you don't just, you got to, it's like rep, you got to keep doing it until you find the right person. [00:26:16] Then you, when you find the right person, you're like, this is it. We're going to grow. There's no way we don't.  [00:26:21] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. So, what should people know about, well, what can they, what should they expect to spend to have a really good operator? I mean in the U. S. you're looking at like 60 to 80k minimum, right? [00:26:37] Minimum to have a decent operator by a year. What if they're using maybe Assistantly or going, you know, to these other countries, what? What's sort of the cost savings for those that are like, man, the operator sounds like a dream. How can I get one?  [00:26:51] Laith: Yeah. And it operator obviously depends on where you're located. [00:26:53] Of course. Let's say like I even like you find an operator in California, you're spending like probably six figures you know, depending obviously where you're located, but like, you know, let's say the average is. Let's just give an example. 75 grand, right? You know, like with us, and it's that 75 grand, you got to take care of HR, payroll, taxes, benefits, typically. [00:27:12] With us, you're typically spending between 30 to 36, 000 for the year. So it's pretty much half. And then we take care of all the HR, payroll, benefits. You don't have to worry about any of that stuff. Taxes, compliance, all that jazz. And then it's a write off for your business. It's like a software write off, which makes it even super attractive. [00:27:28] So, the fact that we will source, really great candidates for you. We will help you obviously interview because I think that's super important. Like, again, like Jason mentioned, everybody has a different process. You want to ask them questions according to you and make sure it's the right fit. [00:27:41] Then we will onboard you, but then we also manage them on a day to day as well. You know, making sure the clock in it. highest level, keeping them accountable. And we keep track of all that stuff on the backend. So that performance success on the talent side and the client side is, you know, part of our managed solution. [00:27:55] You know, and if anything doesn't ever, you know, for example, you hire Kate, after eight months, you're like, Hey, you know, I want to try somebody else. It's we offer a free replacement guarantee. We can switch out people as easy in 48 hours as possible. So, The cost savings, it's half. That's why people do it. [00:28:09] So, you know, even the guy from Baltimore, he goes, so you're telling me I can hire two people for the price of one?  [00:28:14] Jason: Yeah.  [00:28:14] Laith: I'm like yeah. You can hire essentially two virtual property managers for the price of one. That's exactly what I'm saying. And then I, and then we take care of all this stuff on our backend. [00:28:22] And so now his team can double the way he wants to, and he still gets that stuff taken care of on his plate.  [00:28:28] Jason: Yeah. Very cool. All right. Well, Laith, awesome having you here. I think everybody listening should reach out to Assistantly if they don't have an assistant yet, and get an assistant. I think we have a special DoorGrow code or something's set up with you guys I believe that they can use. Let me see if I can find it here in our vendor database. But yeah, I've heard great things about you guys from others. And I think it's, you guys would be a great company for people to go with. Yeah, so our clients get a 10 percent recurring discount on their subscription if they use our links. [00:29:03] So we'll make sure and throw that link out to the marketplace if people are looking for it. On our podcast episode, when we post this and yeah, and check out Assistantly. Well, what's the easiest way for people to get in touch with you besides that?  [00:29:17] Laith: Yeah, I mean, I mean, my email is Laith@assistantly.Com if you want to reach out to me. It's LAITH@assistantly.Com if you want to reach out to me directly. Otherwise, our website assistantly. com you can book a call. It typically gets routed to me or my team members. It's a great way for us to kind of have a good 30 minute strategy session where we're going to outline the role, the responsibilities. [00:29:37] Take all your blame dump of like, this is making me frustrated. I don't want to do this. I need help with this. Like, we take all, like, just, you literally come. You don't got to come with anything. You come, you just vent, we take it, we organize it, and we say, hey, how does this look, you know, for the job description? [00:29:51] According to the RDoc, essentially, right, template, how does this look? They go, great. And then, We can go head on accordingly. So we make it super easy for you. I mean, from you just brain dumping to us putting the JD to getting candidates to onboarding, like you sit back, relax, you take care of all that stuff off your plate. [00:30:06] So, any way I can help, I'm just here to support.  [00:30:09] Jason: Awesome. All right, Laith, appreciate you coming and hanging out with us here on the DoorGrow show and excited to do more stuff with you in the future.  [00:30:17] Laith: Awesome, Jason. Appreciate you, my man.  [00:30:20] Jason: All right. So, if you are a property management entrepreneur and you're wanting to grow your business ,add doors, you're struggling with operational stuff, you want some systems and some processes and mechanisms and an operating system, planning, people, process systems installed in your business.by an operator, you want some help getting these things in place, reach out to us at DoorGrow. We can help you with that and then you can leverage, you know Assistantly to get the bodies get the people that can really make the difference but you need to give good people good systems and good training and this is stuff that we can help you with here DoorGrow supporting your operators, we've got a call just for operators that we do every friday and we have a call every Wednesday for BDMs. [00:31:02] And this is how we're helping grow and scale companies rapidly. And if you want to be part of that rapid growth and be around other cool entrepreneurs talk to us about joining our mastermind and we'll see if you're the right fit for the group. So until next time, everybody to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. [00:31:17] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:31:44] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Many of our property management business owner clients are focused on hiring or restructuring their teams right now. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the most important parts of the hiring process and offer a little bit of “tough love.” You'll Learn [04:39] 1. Finding the right person for the role [11:04] 2. The importance of training your new hire [24:41] 3. Implementing accountability for your team [30:20] Review: what does the initial training period look like? Tweetables “We need to be clear on what results we're expecting.” “Any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes.” “You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.” “If you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.  [00:00:09] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently than you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners, and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:11] Sarah: All right. [00:01:11] Let's do it. Before we do anything, we have an announcement for those of you that have not yet heard. Our foster dog Hans has been officially adopted. So we didn't do a podcast since he was adopted. So this is our first podcast that we don't have Hans kind of hanging out in the background. And I miss his little face, but he has an amazing family. [00:01:32] Jason: I miss Hans. I don't- [00:01:35] Sarah: love him so much.  [00:01:37] Jason: I don't miss him chewing my stuff in my office, but I do miss his little face as well. All right. Yes. Yeah, so he's adopted All right So the topic today and if you want to check that out, you can go to doorgrow.Com right at the top. There's dogs click on that see all our stories. Maynard got adopted. [00:01:55] Sarah: Maynard is adopted. Yeah, he now lives in California.  [00:01:59] Jason: This dog was like on death's door multiple times. Well, many times. Now he's living it up with a wealthy dude.  [00:02:06] Sarah: Who just fell in love with him.  [00:02:07] Jason: Guy in California.  [00:02:08] Sarah: Maynard just captured his heart, loved him so much and wanted to provide him an amazing life, so. [00:02:15] Jason: He's got a new name.  [00:02:16] Sarah: He's Bodhi.  [00:02:17] Jason: Bodhi.  [00:02:18] Sarah: Bodhi. So he's now driving around in a convertible in California. That's one of the pictures they put on there. Oh!  [00:02:25] Jason: All right. So  [00:02:25] Sarah: Maynard has a great life now, too.  [00:02:27] Jason: So you can check that out at doorgrow.com/dogs. All right. So our topic today that we're going to be chatting about you said that it came up a few times in You know this week with some of our clients dealing with some new team members We've got we're doing helping a lot of people with hiring right now. [00:02:45] Sarah: Oh my goodness so many. I built so many DoorGrow Hiring accounts in the last week.  [00:02:49] Jason: Yeah, so we're setting up this hiring mechanism and machine and system so that people can have some consistently good hires. But that brings us to kind of the next challenge. So what have you been hearing?  [00:03:00] Sarah: Okay, so one client asked me, he's about to hire. [00:03:05] He's going through the hiring process. So he doesn't have anybody lined up yet, but he's It's about to start this whole process. And he had asked me, "Hey, what about expectations for when they start when they come on?" And specifically this is a BDM. The second instance of this happening this week is a client who has already hired and his BDM is now about 60 days in. [00:03:31] And he sent me a message yesterday and he said, "Hey, listen, I really need to talk with you before the end of the month. I need to make a decision on my team." So I said, okay, let's. Let's figure out what's going on? And he said "yeah, I'm kind of pissed because my BDM is like 60 days in, and last month he didn't do anything at all. And then this month he started like he hasn't closed anything yet," and by he didn't do anything at all, what he means is he didn't close anything.  [00:04:00] Jason: Okay. Not that he wasn't working. No deals yet.  [00:04:01] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Not that he wasn't working. He was working. And this month now is his 60 day mark and he hasn't closed anything, but he's, you know, making calls and he's starting to, you know, get some things kind of ready and warmed up in the pipeline. [00:04:16] He, he said, "man, should I just let him go? Like, is he just not the right person? I feel like it's 60 days, like, I should see some results at this point."  [00:04:26] Jason: Okay.  [00:04:26] Sarah: So I'd like to, I'd really like to talk about that. And this is going to be, whatever episode this is "Sarah's Tough Love episode." So here it is. [00:04:35] Jason: Got it. Okay, I mean, let's get the basic stuff out of the way, right? First, we need to know that we have the right person. So, we need to know what those expectations are. So, that's where we define that. Usually, we call them R docs, but in this ultimate job description. So, we need to be clear on what we're looking for. [00:04:51] We need to be clear on what results we're expecting. We need to be clear on, you know, what outcomes we're hoping for and they need to be clear on this, right? Like if we're bringing somebody in, they need that clarity. So if there's anyone listening and there's any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes. [00:05:09] And those aren't good, right? And so there needs to be at least, and you need to be on the same page. Literally, the way we do that is with a page called an RDoc. And so you make sure you're on the same page. And all those young Gen Z people, notice how I used the word literally, correctly like it's an actual page. [00:05:28] Sarah: I was just thinking that.  [00:05:29] Jason: Stop saying the word literally. It drives me fucking nuts. So, all right.  [00:05:33] Sarah: Literally.  [00:05:34] Jason: I literally, like if, yeah, nobody's confused about it being figurative, then don't, you don't need to say the word.  [00:05:41] Sarah: I literally died yesterday when I read that text.  [00:05:43] Jason: No, you would be dead. [00:05:45] You would actually be dead. All right. So, Now the next piece is we need to make sure we've got a person that fits that job description, right? They actually are the right personality. Well, let's talk about the three fits real quick. They have to match all three or they're not going to be a good BDM. [00:06:01] Sarah: Or it's never going to work out. And it doesn't matter if it's a BDM, an operator, a property manager, an assistant, a maintenance coordinator. It doesn't, name the role, doesn't matter.  [00:06:10] Jason: So, first, they have to be the right personality for the job or they'll never be great at it. They'll never be motivated to do it. [00:06:18] You bring in somebody to be a BDM, for example, and they're not the right personality to go out and want to talk to people and connect with people and network and that's not fun for them, they're always going to resist it. They're going to avoid it. They're going to do a bunch of time wasting stupid activities They're going to train everything else other than what really should be done, which is to go connect with people and have conversations. So they're going to be like "well I'm trying some marketing thing and i'm trying this thing and like and-"  [00:06:47] Sarah: "I sent 5,000 emails I don't know why none of them came back." [00:06:51] Jason: "We did direct mail to, like, 7,000 owners." [00:06:56] Sarah: I've heard that and it's because this is a true example. "I sent 5,000 emails." [00:07:00] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Sarah: So essentially you did nothing. That's great. Right. Good to know.  [00:07:05] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:05] Sarah: Thank you.  [00:07:06] Jason: Lots of emails, right? So. So,  [00:07:09] Sarah: you know how many junk emails we get in a day? What happens when you get junk email? [00:07:13] Do you open it? Do you read it? Do you respond to it? No. That's what you just did to somebody else.  [00:07:19] Jason: Yeah. It lacks depth. All right. So we can get into tactics later, but they need to match the personality for the role. Which means they would love succeeding at this. They would love doing it. They would enjoy it. [00:07:32] They get some fulfillment out of it. And so that's personality fit. They need to be the right the right culture fit, which means they need to actually believe in your business and in you and in the product. They have to believe in this. You cannot sell effectively if you lack belief. And that goes for everybody on the team. [00:07:53] Like, if your operator isn't a believer in you or the business, they're not going to want or care to make sure that it runs well for you. If your executive assistant isn't, you know, a believer in you or shares your values, they're never going to do things in a way that makes you feel safe or that you trust them. [00:08:09] Cultural fit means they do it the way that you would want it done, that they share your values. The big clue we talked about this at our last jumpstart event where we had clients and somebody had a team member. And I just asked, I said, well, do you feel better when they're around? [00:08:25] Do you feel calmer when they're around? And they were like, no, I'm like, yeah, then they got to go.  [00:08:30] Sarah: He said, oh, well, a lot of our communication we do over the phone because that's better.  [00:08:36] Jason: Because there's such a high degree of conflict.  [00:08:37] Sarah: Jason says, better than what? Awful?  [00:08:40] Jason: Yeah, and then he laughed. [00:08:41] Everybody laughed in the group and he was like, well, yeah.  [00:08:44] Sarah: Well, I can't talk to this person in person. I can't be around them. Because when we're around each other, there's too much conflict. It's just too, it gets, yeah, it gets too feisty. Well, that's not good.  [00:08:55] Jason: Yeah, that means that person's not a good fit for that person for that particular client. [00:09:00] Sarah: And let's be clear. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with this particular person. No, it doesn't make them a bad person It doesn't mean, you know, all the they'll never succeed No, it just means that they are better suited in a different environment That's all. It means not everybody like when you're dating, you don't want to date everybody. You want to date people that you like generally and there are certain people that you like and there are certain people that you just don't mesh well. The businesses work the same way.  [00:09:31] Jason: Yeah. They've got to match your values. Because regardless you get somebody that's amazing BDM, for example, or an amazing operator for your business, they don't share your values, you'll never trust them. Like you just can't. And then the third fit is skill fit. So they have to have the skill or the ability or the intellectual capacity to learn and develop this skill quickly. And so if they don't, then you'll invest a bunch of energy into trying to train them and they're just too stupid to get it. [00:10:01] Or they just can't figure it out or maybe you hire somebody and they've got bad habits or they can't adapt. So they need to have that skill fit. They got to be all three or they're not going to be a good fit. So let's assume if we've helped them with DoorGrow Hiring, we focus on these three fits. [00:10:18] We have a whole hiring mechanism. Make sure these generally go well.  [00:10:22] Sarah: Yeah. So I can tell you, I don't think that's any of those are the problem.  [00:10:26] Jason: This person. Yeah. So in these situations, the person is the right fit. Yeah, usually that's the problem is they're not even getting the right person. [00:10:33] Most of y'all doing hiring, you're playing Russian roulette hiring and you don't have good fits.  [00:10:38] Sarah: Or it's, oh, this person had the experience and they came from such and such a Yeah, we hear that all the time.  [00:10:43] Jason: Yeah. Well, they're so experienced, and you feel uncomfortable around them and you don't trust them. [00:10:50] Yeah. So let's assume that, you know, with our clients, we've helped them find people that match the three fits. So now we're past that hurdle, that's very typical for most people, well, now, if it's not them, then who is it?  [00:11:04] Sarah: Okay. So here's where the tough love comes is. This is always my question. [00:11:08] And I'm very, very particular about what happens when you hire someone. You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet. I know it feels like you've gotten through it and now things are better and you should just be able to rely on that person. You're not there yet. [00:11:33] You will be. But you're just not, you're getting closer. You're just not fully there yet. And this is what happens a lot of times and they go, "Oh, okay, so I know I need to train this person and then I'll probably train them for like a week or two and then they'll just be good." [00:11:48] Absolutely not. So especially with a new person and it doesn't matter. Here's the other thing that I hear all the time, especially when somebody has the experience. Oh, well, you know, they have a sales background. They know how to sell. Great. They don't know how to sell for you. They don't know how to sell what you've got. [00:12:05] They don't know how to sell your values and your mission. They don't know how to sell that yet. They don't quite know. So you can take any salesperson in the universe and plug them into your business. Do they have the skill? Yes. Do they have the experience? Of course, but they still have to be trained. So having the experience does not mean "Oh, I don't have to train them," or, "oh, I don't have to train them as much." [00:12:32] You still have to train them a lot. There is a lot of training. And I hate to break it to you, but your life when you hire gets worse. So your life is bad, you know you need to hire, then you hire somebody, your life is now worse for a short period of time. The reason being is everything that you were doing, you still have to do it, and in addition, you now have to train somebody. So nothing has changed except that you just added another responsibility for yourself for the next 30 to 90 days. And there is no way around that with hiring. So if you hire and you fail the train, it is probably not going to work out. They will not get the results. [00:13:16] They will be frustrated. You will be frustrated. And at some point, you will get back into the cycle of, "Oh, well, now I guess I have to hire again." And then you live in hell forever. And it's not a good place to be.  [00:13:31] Jason: Yeah, so unless you hire somebody that is an amazing 'who,' right? There's a book called Who Not How it's a great book. [00:13:40] Unless you hire an amazing 'who,' like you bring in somebody, they're a sales trainer and an expert closer, and they've had tons of success and they can teach other people's sales, then I think, in any role, you have to assume you need an assumption that they're going to do it wrong. You have to start with that foundational assumption that they're going to do everything wrong. [00:14:01] If I hired an operator cold, they're doing it wrong, that I need them to install my operational system. If they are coming in as a salesperson in the business, I know they've been trained poorly because most sales training out there doesn't work anymore. There's a new model and a new way of selling and all the old stuff. [00:14:20] All the salesy guys that are sales trainers and sales coaches largely out there that push. Doesn't work anymore. It's outdated. And we don't push that stuff at DoorGrow. We've had to shift how we sell and we teach clients differently, even in the last year. And so my assumption is that they're going to do it wrong, but. [00:14:40] What I do assume is if they've done it well before, they have the ability to learn it. They have the ability to be a good operator. They have the ability to be a good BDM. But there needs to, you can't assume because they have done it before, that you're just going to rely on them to do it.  [00:14:56] Sarah: It's not plug and play. [00:14:58] "I hired them now they're just going to go do it and they're going to sell a bunch of stuff for me." No.  [00:15:02] Jason: Right. You're always going to be disappointed with most everybody if you come in with this assumption and they're going to feel unsupported and untrained and frustrated.  [00:15:13] Sarah: And they will inevitably either quit or get fired.  [00:15:16] Jason: Yeah, they'll go find a better situation.  [00:15:18] Sarah: No matter what, it will not work out. So here's a good moment to talk about Vendoroo.  [00:15:25] Jason: We'll talk in just a minute. We're going to talk about the onboarding and then some of the next steps that are really important. But quick word from our sponsor. If you're tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination, meet Vendoroo, your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish. Triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection, and coordination built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations, where every dollar is accounted for, and every task is handled with unmatched reliability Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at vendoroo.ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. Okay. So check them out.  [00:16:10] Sarah: Speaking of doing things right, let's talk about what happens after you hire somebody.  [00:16:15] Jason: So the next step after you hire it, it has to be onboarding. There needs to be a good transition of bringing somebody out from the wild, this untrained wild creature, getting them to be something that is going to work inside of your business and fit you and fit what you want. [00:16:33] It's onboarding.  [00:16:34] Sarah: And if you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction because I'm sure that you can think back to a previous job that you've had back when we all had job jobs, right? Have you ever just been hired and then kind of just, it's almost like train yourself or figure it out or, well, "I'm going to train you a little bit and then the rest is up to you. Well, what do you mean? I trained you for a whole day. Now I'm done." [00:17:06] "Oh, okay. So that's it. That's all the support I'm going to get. All right."  [00:17:10] have you ever been hired and then you don't even truly know what you're supposed to do? I don't know. I'm supposed to sell stuff.  [00:17:16] Jason: So here's the challenge. Here's the challenge with this with entrepreneurs, I've been thrown into job situations where there was terrible onboarding, terrible training, but I'm an entrepreneur personality type. [00:17:27] I then innovated, figured it out. And in some situations where at a job I then quickly was put into leadership and sort of managing others. But I had initiative. I had drive, like I had adaptability and I find entrepreneurs are incredibly adaptable and they make the mistake of assuming that everybody else is like them and they're not, they're like, "well, I would just figure it out and I would just ask enough questions. And if I didn't know something, I would just like, and so you can't assume that everybody is like you, if they were like you, they wouldn't work for you. How many of you would go work for somebody now? Like, you're unemployable. Like, let's be real. You would suck as an employee, probably, right? I'm unemployable at this point. [00:18:10] I'm not going to like sit around and let somebody just tell me what to do all the time and whatever. Right. But they're not the same as you. And if they were, then they might just, you know, start a business and leave your business. Right. So they're willing, if they're willing to work for you, you need to assume that they are not the same as you and that they need to be guided. They need support. Now that doesn't mean they can't learn or they're not adaptable. That's the skill fit Don't make the assumption that they'll just wing it and figure it all out unless they're just incredibly driven and incredibly patient And they're really a strong believer in you. [00:18:45] Some of them may do that, but you don't want to lose a good person simply because they feel like you don't care or you're not invested.  [00:18:52] Sarah: So this is There's so much time that goes into hiring and this is why I say don't waste the time that you've spent trying to find the right person and screening applications and interviewing and you put a whole bunch of time and probably effort into this and now you found the person, don't waste that opportunity. [00:19:18] So you need to onboard them properly. And what does that mean? We need to make sure that they have access to all of the systems that they're going to need. And that they know all of the systems that they're going to need. So, oh, what are the tools that I use? And then, do I know how to access it? And, do I know how to use it? [00:19:36] Right? Don't just assume that they'll figure out, Oh, well, this is how I use this phone system. Train them on it. Just show them that. So, there's got to be training for those sorts of things. If they're in sales, then, well, How do I sell? How do I reach people? What am I doing? Am I just doing the fit call, figuring that out? [00:20:00] Am I doing the full pitch? Am I closing? Am I setting them up for you and then you're going to close? What exactly am I doing? So train them on every single thing that they need to know. And I know this sounds so silly, but most people do not do this. So, what do I say? What do I do? Do I have a script? Do I just make it up? [00:20:22] Where do I find people? Am I in the office? Am I driving around? Am I, like, meeting people at events? What am I supposed to be doing all day? Because I'm brand new and I know nothing. So I'm completely reliant upon you to tell me what to do. So if they don't know, don't assume that they're just going to go and figure it out for you. [00:20:44] You have to show them and they have to shadow you. So for the first 90 days, this is all training. So when you hire any person, now some of them will pick it up a little bit quicker and some of them will take the full 90 days and either way it's all right. But just in your head, tell yourself it's going to take the full 90 days, right? [00:21:07] So in that 90 days. With any position, but especially in sales, don't expect them to come in and then just start selling. Oh, wow, they closed a bunch of deals. That was awesome. That's so cool. So there's kind of a ramp up period in every position, but certainly in sales. So shadowing is very important here. [00:21:31] They need to be all over you. All the time. So you need to meet with them every day.  [00:21:40] Jason: Or whoever is the person they're learning from. Sometimes it's not going to be you, eventually. In the beginning, it's always you, right? Which leads us to, like, availability and access is huge in the beginning. Like, if a team member doesn't have access to you, or you are unavailable because you're so busy. [00:21:58] They're going to feel stuck. They're going to feel unsupported. They're going to feel fearful in what they're doing. And so they need to have availability. This morning, I got a phone call. Like a call came in through Telegram. She called me and she's like, "Hey, I'm supposed to do a triage call right now? I have a scheduled appointment, and I'm trying to load Zoom and it's saying, it's waiting for the host. And I'm supposed to be the host." And I said, Then just call them, like pick up the phone, just call them. It's a quick call anyway, but it probably has to do with maybe you're not logged in or you click the link somewhere else and it doesn't realize you're logged in. [00:22:31] It happens to me sometimes. And she said, okay, yeah, I'll just call them. You know, if she were in that situation, this is her first triage call and she's like totally stuck and I'm like unavailable and she's freaking out, then she's going to feel, you know, people go through all sorts of emotions like anger, shame, guilt, fear, like, you know, stuff like this. And so we don't want to put our team members on this emotional rollercoaster of discomfort when everything's uncertain in the beginning. So that's important. Once we get through and the onboarding period, my general rule for onboarding is 90 days, like you said, then the first the first 30, I'm usually meeting with them maybe for an hour a day and I'm highly available.  [00:23:12] Sarah: Every day. [00:23:13] Jason: Yeah. [00:23:14] Sarah: Every day.  [00:23:15] Jason: That's usually the goal. And then after that, I might the next month, maybe it's a shorter time period every day if I'm over like consistently training them like a BDM especially. But otherwise, it might be that we start backing it off to maybe meeting weekly. And then depending on the role of whether or not I'm their supervisor directly, or if they're kind of owning a piece of the business, I then might back it off in the last month or eventually for the future to meet with them monthly to support them or whatnot. Like you kind of gradually step it down and it'll be obvious because you'll be getting on calls with them and like, Hey, what else should we talk about? What else do you need to know? What other questions you have or hey, I want to make sure you know this and you're going to start to run out of ideas. And they're going to start to not need you as much. And so then it's pretty obvious. Well, okay, then I guess we'll end this early. And that's a clue. Well, maybe we don't need to meet as often now. And they'll let you know. You know, do you think we need to keep meeting all the time like this? Like, well, it is helpful, but I don't know that we need an hour, maybe 30 minutes. Okay, cool. If we could just meet 15 minutes each day so I can get unstuck on a few things. Awesome. Right. So I meet with my assistant every day for a short amount of time. [00:24:26] But they're directly responsible to help and support me on things as an operator, like you run our weekly meeting and our daily huddles. Right? And so there's different things like there's sort of a cadence of structure, even regardless. So. I think after we get through onboarding and you've got good access, good availability, they feel supported and they're succeeding, they need to be getting results. [00:24:50] So I think the next step in my mind is there needs to be accountability. So if you're letting somebody just run and it's 60 days in and they are not succeeding or getting results, like cool, how many calls has the BDM made? "I don't know." Okay. How, like, how often have you met with them? "Well, you know, not often." If there's no part of meeting with them is to create accountability. [00:25:13] Like, Hey, what are you working on today? What do you feel like is next? What are you going to be doing? And to make sure that you're guiding them towards what they should be working on. So accountability means, you know, metrics if they're a bDM.  [00:25:26] Sarah: You need to know the metrics.  [00:25:28] Jason: How many networking events have they gone to in the last week? [00:25:31] How many phone calls and outreach have they made to potential referral partners or real estate agents? How many investors have they reached out or called? Are they on top of all of the follow up tasks and deals that are in the CRM? Do you have a CRM, right? Like there needs to be accountability. So there's a record. [00:25:50] Are they keeping notes? Are they, are the calls recorded? Can you listen to their calls to help them improve? Like if there's no transparency or accountability, there's almost no likelihood that they're going to succeed. Like it's because they're not being watched. So, basically, you're sending the signal, it doesn't matter. [00:26:08] You might get somebody that's an amazing self starter.  [00:26:11] Sarah: Go figure it out. Well, shit, I don't know. I guess I'll just make it up. But then when they make a decision and now their decision is different than your decision, now, you didn't tell them what to do. They just made something up and now you're not happy with the results. [00:26:28] Jason: Yeah, and they're lacking leadership and if they're lacking in your jobs to be the leader and they're lacking leadership, then they have no accountability and they have no, there's no transparency or visibility in what they're doing. You won't know. If what they're doing is working or not working. And so they'll just keep doing what's not working. [00:26:48] Because if they still get paid either way, that's a bad situation for most team members. Most team members will continue to get paid whether or not they're really performing at an exceptional level or a decent level. And with a BDM, their compensation should be directly connected to getting results, so they should really want it. [00:27:06] But if there's no accountability or transparency in the beginning, They're probably going to do a lot of stuff that isn't working and they're going to be frustrated and they  [00:27:15] Sarah: know why it's not working  [00:27:17] Jason: Yeah,  [00:27:18] Sarah: they'll come to you and say hey like I'm doing what you told me to do. You told me to make all these calls I mean all these calls. It's not working.  [00:27:26] Jason: And this is one of the ways in which DoorGrow can assist. [00:27:29] We can assist with this, right? Like they can show up to our Wednesday coaching call if they're a BDM focusing on growth. And the BDM can come to the call and say, Hey, I'm trying to do this and I'm getting this result. It's not the outcome I'm looking for. It's not working. Cool. Maybe you need to change this. [00:27:44] Or how are you saying it? Or what are you doing? Or could you send us a call recording? So all of these things that we teach, we know work. They can work. If it's not working, then it's obvious that it must be what they're doing. They're not doing it correct. They're doing it maybe in the wrong way or maybe they're not saying the right things or maybe their tone is off or maybe They are turning people off and they sound like a telemarketer or they're creating the sales ick or the sales resistance in people by how they're approaching people and these are easy changes These are little things that are very easy to tweak or change. [00:28:22] I mean just listening to one sales call from somebody, I can give them a lot of feedback and it's like they grow so much faster and quicker. And that's one way to add some visibility or accountability into the equation. But as a business owner, you need to know their metrics. They need to have metrics and be accountable for that, right? [00:28:40] They need to know what are the leading actions that I need to be taking that are going to get the business development results? What are the daily activities that I need to be doing in order to succeed? So that's my take  [00:28:53] Sarah: for sure. And I love listening to the call recordings because then sometimes when you're in the moment and this happens to all of us, sometimes when you're in the moment, you have a certain perception of how things went and then when you go back and you listen to it later, you'll catch something that you weren't aware of in that moment. [00:29:14] So maybe it's something that they said, maybe it's something that you said, maybe you. Didn't explain something the way that they understood it, but you'll hear things that you may have missed in the moment and Especially with salespeople, this is a training opportunity. So a lot of times people go "what am I supposed to train them on? Like they know how to use the CRM? they know how to use the phone system. They know what to do. They got to just go do it." Okay? Well Are we honing in skills? Are we improving things? Or are we just saying like, "Go do it! Go make a thousand calls this week!: Okay, well, if I make a thousand shitty calls  [00:29:53] Jason: Yeah, you're just wasting energy and you're wasting your leads or your opportunities. [00:29:58] Sarah: So there's always this fine tuning that we have to do. And very rarely are people able to do it for themselves. Sometimes they can go back and listen to a call recording and then go, Oh, you know what? I'm going to improve that. But a lot of times it's really good to have two people listening to the call recording for that reason. [00:30:20] And then the last thing that I do want to talk about is what does the 30, 60, 90 day period look like? So I always tell people in their first 30 days, this is nothing but training. This is deep training, you really do need to be meeting with them every day, not when it's convenient, not when you have time, not, "oh, well, I skipped that day because this happened." [00:30:42] Every single day, every day, they need to have the correct resources, the correct knowledge, the right support, the questions need to be answered, you need to be available to them. They need to have all of this because they're brand new. So a lot of times what happens is people hire somebody and it's like a little baby bird and then they push the baby bird out of the nest. [00:31:08] The bird can't fly yet because you didn't even teach it what its wings are, right? So we can't do that yet. So in the first 30 days, really expect nothing. Really, they just need to be training. If they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome. Great! I mean, they should be doing the activities. [00:31:27] Jason: I expect work.  [00:31:28] Sarah: Yes,  [00:31:29] Jason: I expect to actually and work like if it's to make calls, I expect them in like a BDM should be making some outbound outreach and calls right away.  [00:31:39] Sarah: Absolutely.  [00:31:40] Jason: Otherwise, how are you going to know that  [00:31:41] Sarah: if it's going to, yeah,  [00:31:43] Jason: they shouldn't just be like, just learning. So it's like, I want to get them on the phone and get them making calls. [00:31:47] Sarah: No, but in sales, let's be really clear here. Training. This is hands on training. This is like trying to say, "Hey, I need to go learn how to drive a car. But I'm never actually going to get in the car. I'm going to meet with you on Zoom or I'm going to sit with you and you're going to tell me about how to drive a car." [00:32:03] No, honey, you gotta go get in the car. So, yes, you have to actually be doing it, doing the activities.  [00:32:09] That is training.  [00:32:10] Jason: There's no amount of manuals or videos you could read or watch that would teach you how to drive a car. You have to drive the car.  [00:32:17] Sarah: Yes. So, if they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome, that's gravy, that's a bonus. [00:32:23] But sometimes people go, "oh man, it's been 30 days and I haven't closed anything. Like, man, they must suck." They're new. They're learning so much and when you implement a new thing, you're probably not going to be very good at it. Especially a new strategy or a new way of doing sales because the way that we teach our clients to sell is different. [00:32:43] It's different. We're not hardcore closing everybody. We're not doing that. So it's, everything is different. They don't have their bearings yet. They don't even have their footing and their foundations, right? So 30 days, if they close something, that's great. But I still, I want them to be training and I want them to be doing some sort of, you know, whatever it's going to be. [00:33:04] If you have them doing events or presentations or calls or a mixture of all of them, great.  [00:33:10] Jason: There should be progress. You'll see progress. And if that's the thing you don't want to tolerate somebody being in the business for 60 days, 90 days, and you're not seeing progress or action, and you're trying to push them. [00:33:23] If you're having to push somebody to do something. Probably they're not the right personality fit. If you feel unsafe with them doing things, and it makes you uncomfortable, how they're doing things, probably not a culture fit. They're not doing it according to your values. [00:33:36] The "how" they go about doing it is different than you. If they're just not doing the right things, then that's a training issue. Or they're just not intelligent enough to learn the skill. So that's a skill fit. Okay,  [00:33:48] Sarah: so then 60 days I do want to see some progress. They might close something. [00:33:55] They still might not it depends. I can't say yes or no Oh, they should definitely close. I can't you can't say that because everybody has their own time frame, right? And investors sometimes they work on their own time frames. You can't control that but I do want to see I want to feel like things are happening, and I want to feel like, Hey, we've got some stuff in the pipeline, we've got some stuff that I feel like might close. [00:34:20] If you say, Hey, what do you have that's about to close? Do you feel like anybody's close? And they go not really. Oh... [00:34:27] Jason: are they getting appointments? Are there relationships being built? Are there deals now kind of get in the pipeline at some of the earlier stages? Like you should start to see the sales pipeline mature and build. [00:34:37] Sarah: So then 90 days they've been doing that. Now they understand everything. They know what to do. They know how to do it. They've gotten their feet wet. They've now tested things and then also made some improvements. They're like, Oh, well, when I say it like this, it doesn't work. It doesn't resonate. [00:34:53] But if I say it like this, it's better. Oh I have to switch this and this, right? Now you're making those little tweaks, those little improvements. So 90 days, they should be able to close something at this point. And same thing with the pipeline. I need to see the pipeline moving forward. I need to see more being added in the pipeline. [00:35:11] I need to see them further along in different stages in the pipeline. Things need to start kind of really moving forward at this point. And then after the 90 days, Now, you get to push the bird out of the nest, right? Now, you're a baby bird, go push him. You should now have everything that you need to be able to soar, as long as we did our job. [00:35:34] But a lot of times, I get it, it's hard, because you're running a business, and you're an entrepreneur, and you're busy, and it's crazy. And now you want me to train somebody? Yep. Yeah. Because once they are able to do it for you, now you can relax into it. But if we skip the training, what's going to happen is you're going to go, man, they're just not getting me the results. [00:35:55] Or they might get frustrated and go, man, my boss sucks. Like they don't train me on. Anything, and it's just not, it's not a good place here. I know, I'm going to leave because I know that if I don't, then I'll eventually get fired. So regardless, they're going to leave. And then you're going to have to go, God, well now I have to go hire somebody. [00:36:11] And then you're going to hire somebody. And then you're going to be in this whole hiring cycle of hell for the rest of eternity. And that's not a fun place to be. It's not. It's really painful.  [00:36:21] Jason: Yeah, a lot of people wait until they're in pain to hire instead of hiring strategically with a plan or, you know, in advance. [00:36:29] And so once you get to the place where you need a new team member, and then you hire, and now you're going to have to, you're kind of shot in the foot, and you're going to have to like go backwards time wise, like then you're in a worse spot, like that's not the ideal place to be hiring. And then later you'll create more freedom you know, eventually, but yeah, you want to make sure that you are kind of aware of your capacity and starting to like get your hiring systems, get your new hires in place in advance before you need it. [00:37:01] And this is why it's super important to make sure you're making the right decisions in the business. So we have frameworks for how to decide what you need most in the business and frameworks for how to decide what the business needs most. So you're making healthy. financial hiring decisions because making wrong decisions that way can really hurt cash flow and can, you know, especially early in the business can really be dangerous. [00:37:22] So, well, is there anything else you'd say to maybe some of our clients or people that they've gotten a new hire. It's probably a good hire and they need to make sure they're doing their onboarding and taking care of this new hire correctly.  [00:37:36] Sarah: Yeah, get it on your calendar. Don't just say you're going to do it. [00:37:40] It has to be scheduled time where it's dedicated. And also, don't half ass it. Don't be like, oh yeah, I'm going to be on the phone with Joe while I'm like over here. They know. That's not dedicated. That does not feel good. We've all been on the receiving end of something like that. So, don't make people guess. [00:37:59] Don't make them figure it out. It's not going to work out well.  [00:38:03] Jason: Alright. That's our episode for today. So I think that this should be pretty helpful for some of our clients that are getting into new hires And hopefully it was helpful for a lot of you listening if you're struggling with hiring or building your team or systems or profit, all this relates to the people system in your business. You need people, planning, and process and that's our super system. If you're needing some help with this, reach out to DoorGrow and we can take you to a whole nother level by getting helping you get these systems installed and you'll have a business that you actually enjoy being in. So until next time to our mutual growth. [00:38:42] Bye everyone. [00:38:43] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:39:10] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

If you are existing in your property management business but you aren't enjoying it, you might be in property management hell. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull explain how to escape property management hell. You'll Learn [01:19] How do you know if you are in property management hell? [05:40] How to escape property management hell [07:33] How do you know if you are in property management hell? [10:32] What does an operator do in a property management business? Tweetables “So if you are existing, living in your business and you're not enjoying it and it's frustrating… then you might be in property management hell.” “There's definitely something to be said about working hard. There's definitely a time and a season for this.” “We have to get to the next level, and what got you to where you are now is not going to help you move forward.” “You can still be miserable and have an entire team.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: You will have more fulfillment, more freedom, more contribution, and more support in your business as it grows. [00:00:05] And this is the right way to do it. This will change your life. [00:00:09]  [00:00:10] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, and unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the founder and CEO and the COO of DoorGrow. [00:01:15] Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:18] Welcome everybody. So we were thinking about what to talk about today, and one of the things that I coached clients on this week in depth was this idea of how to escape property management hell. So let's talk about how to escape property management hell. So if you are existing, living in your business and you're not enjoying it and it's frustrating, you've got an entire team and you're wondering 'why won't they just think for themselves?' And you're stressed out and you're tired of dealing with all the escalated situations where your team couldn't handle it like tenants and owners, and you're still wearing a whole bunch of hats that you don't enjoy wearing, you're still doing a lot of stuff in the business that you really don't wake up in the morning and go, "man, I'm excited to do that thing today," then you might be in property management hell. This is not property management heaven. This is not the place you're supposed to stay. And so if you're not enjoying that we're going to talk about how to get out of that. And it's not that complicated of a process. We're not going to go into a ton of detail cause we don't have a ton of time. [00:02:20] Not as in depth as we would in coaching our clients, but we're going to give you the high level overview so you can understand that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. All right. So what do you notice with clients that they're doing and what's going on when they are in hell? What sort of frustrations and challenges are you hearing? [00:02:40] Sarah: Overwhelmed. They're overworked. They're crazy busy. Most of it is just busy work. [00:02:46] It needs to be done, but it's not high level things that a business owner would need to do. They're working lots and lots of hours. Sometimes it might be eight, 10, 12, 15 hours a day. Sometimes it's seven days a week. Usually it's at least six and then they do a little bit on the seventh day, but they don't really fully get time off and they're just responding to everything as it comes in and they're trying to handle everything and they're frustrated and they're just very stressed out.  [00:03:23] Jason: Yeah, I was talking with a past client who may end up, probably end up joining our mastermind program. I think we'd worked together four or five years ago, helped him with his website and some different stuff. And he's been using some of the stuff he learned and he was really excited to tell me how far he's come and he's like at 700 units and I think he was small when he came to me, I don't remember, maybe 50 or something, and so he's really excited about the progress he has. [00:03:50] Then he was telling me he's working 17 hour days, some days, like he's working these crazy hours and he's going through these cycles of growth and like working crazy hard and then stopping the growth so that he can focus on building up the business and operations and doing a lot of the onboarding of the properties and then he goes back into this cycle and he hasn't taken a legit vacation since he started the business. [00:04:17] And he goes on vacations, but he's on his phone the whole time. He's not totally available. And this is not a sustainable thing. Now he's just done it through sheer drive and will. To his credit, he's like, "nobody will outwork me." This is like a badge of honor for him. And he works incredibly hard and he's like, that's why he's had more success than any of his competitors is he's just willing to outwork all of them. [00:04:43] And there's definitely something to be said about working hard. There's definitely a time and a season for this. And if all of you or any of you are being lazy, work a little harder. Like do some hard work for a little while to get to that next level. But we want more fulfillment and more freedom. And I wasn't getting a sense from this gentleman that he was experiencing fulfillment and freedom. [00:05:03] To me, that sounds like hell. It's like a treadmill that you feel like you've created and you have to keep running on to keep the business going. And he's going to burn out. And you know, he even mentioned like it's affecting his health, it's affecting his body, you know, and it's probably impacting his relationships, you know? [00:05:21] And so a lot of guys get into this stage and I think women do it as well. Everybody does this in business where they get into this mode of growth and work and hustle. And that's how we get businesses going. We have to get to the next level, and what got you to where you are now is not going to help you moving forward. [00:05:38] You have to start to get out of the way. And so the way to escape this property management hell, this cycle of endless work and torment is we need to figure out what help do we need in the business? A lot of people go, "well, just offload stuff." Yeah, but how do you know what you actually should offload? [00:05:58] Because the big mistake people make is they go hire what they think the business needs and they keep helping the business. And this gentleman and many others I've talked to have an entire team and they're still stressing themselves out. You can still be miserable and have an entire team. Some of you listening are like, "yeah that's me. I've got an entire team and I'm miserable," right? So, how do we escape that? Here's how we figure out what you need. Because if we instead shift it to figuring out what you need, then this will be a game changer. So, the first thing we do is, we have our clients do a time study.  [00:06:30] We have a sponsor and our sponsor is Venderoo, which we're getting some great feedback on from clients. Tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination. Meet Venderoo, your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish. Triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection, and coordination built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at Vendoroo, VENDOROO dot ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. And I'll just add one of our clients had 80 work orders in his first day of turning Vendoroo, the AI thing on, he had 80 work orders closed out. Another client had 54 work orders closed out in their first day as well. [00:07:29] Like we're in this AI revolution. So I highly recommend you check these guys out. It's very cool.  [00:07:33] Okay, so back to what I was saying is here's the strategy. You do a time study. This time study will help you figure out what you're doing every 15 minutes and you're going to categorize your time based on whether it's tactical or strategic and you're going to figure out which things are your plus signs or your minus signs. [00:07:50] We have a whole process for this and a training on how to do this and you want to do this once a quarter. This will move the business forward more than most anything else that you could do. And it'll help you get out of the way. You do the time study, figure out plus and minus signs. Then you create a job description. [00:08:04] We call those R docs because each section starts with an R, ultimate Rdoc job description for yourself and your team members creates a ton of clarity. And so you get these Rdocs created, you create one for yourself, and then you highlight the things that you no longer want to be doing, or that are your tactical minus signs that are the things you're working in the business instead of on the business, which is strategic. And so then you take that and build out a new Rdoc for your ideal candidate and hire. And this needs to be a single personality type, not like, "Oh, I need somebody to do some sales stuff and some accounting stuff and some operations stuff." [00:08:41] No, those are weird people called entrepreneurs. Don't do that. Pick one realistic human being that's not entrepreneurial like a specialist. So that might be a really good executive assistant. And then you'll have a really good job description, move all the things on that job description that would be for that person. [00:08:58] And then you put that out to the marketplace. Now, if you want to do this correctly, DoorGrow hiring is the game changer. This is where you stop playing Russian roulette and you attract the right personality type for the role. So they will actually be good at it and the right cultural fit so that you will actually trust them. [00:09:15] It's not just about finding somebody willing to do the work or that has the skill, but you also need to find somebody that's intelligent enough to be able to learn and adapt to you and to be able to do this. And then if you start building your team this way, you will have a team built around the right person would because you're adjusting yourself every quarter, you're improving yourself every quarter, you're moving closer and closer to your plus signs and more of what energizes you, and then you're going to do this with all of your team members. You're going to have them do time studies and identify their strengths and what they enjoy doing, and your team will get better and better. And you will have more fulfillment, more freedom, more contribution, and more support in your business as it grows. [00:09:51] And this is the right way to do it. This will change your life. This is going to make you have a business that you actually enjoy being in that you're less and less involved in over time and that you're the only pieces you're still holding on to are the pieces you love. And so this is a business that is built to sell if you do want to exit because you're systematically exiting from the right pieces of the business. [00:10:15] And there's the right accountability. And then you need to get a really good operating system like DoorGrow OS, where you have a good planning system and you need to get a good operator to run this system and to run the business. And that will legitimately change your life. Having Sarah as an operator, changes my life. [00:10:31] Anything you'll add to this?  [00:10:32] Sarah: I think aside from the fact that people don't know what an operator is because everyone goes, "Oh yeah, I'm going to hire somebody for operations. And these are all the things they're going to do." They are not handling tactical work. [00:10:42] Your operator is not talking with tenants. Your operator is not talking with your clients. They are not involved in maintenance, rent collection, evictions, owner statements. They don't do any of those things. That is all front end, front line work. And your operator, no one will even know who your operator is because they don't talk to anybody in the business except for you and your team. [00:11:03] They're all back end. So they're very strategically involved in the business, which is very different. So they are responsible for the inner workings of your business and how things are progressing and moving forward. And are you guys running your strategic planning meetings? Are we on track for our weekly goals and our monthly goals, our quarterly goals, and most importantly, our big annual goal? Are we doing daily huddles? Are we attracting the right team members? Do we have the right team members? Do we have the right people in the right seats and the right roles in the business? If not, we need to make some adjustments. Do we have Rdocs and job descriptions for every single person? [00:11:47] Are they up to date? Are our processes documented? Are they up to date and are they actually being used? Or do we just have this library of processes that nobody ever looks at? And then we spent hours and hours wasting time because now nobody ever uses them or looks at them. Right? So hiring, firing, strategic planning, daily huddles, your team check ins... how are things going with your team? [00:12:11] If you don't know, and you're not regularly having these meetings, then you are missing out. Because your team will know things that you don't know, as soon as you get out of that role, and have somebody else fully in it. They're now going to know things that you don't know. So you have to rely on communication with your team to understand, "hey, is there some sort of cog that we don't know about now because I don't handle leasing anymore? But is there a big problem with leasing that we can probably shore up somewhere?" So, these are the things that your operator does. The operator and the CEO, they go together very well. They're like yin and yang. [00:12:51] One will balance the other out, but they work hand in hand, and your operator does all of the things back end in the business to make sure that the business is growing and running well, and that you have the right team. So, your operator, just so you know, has absolutely nothing to do with front end work. [00:13:09] They just kind of look over the people who do.  [00:13:12] Jason: They're not your property manager. They're not your maintenance coordinator. They're not your accountant.  [00:13:17] Sarah: No.  [00:13:18] Jason: They're not a lot of things. They're not your executive assistant. [00:13:21] Sarah: They don't do move ins. They don't do move outs. They don't talk to tenants ever. And they don't talk to clients.  [00:13:28] Jason: No. They will run your business and they will change your life, right? And this will free you up to be more of a visionary entrepreneur in your business, which is what the business needs. It needs somebody leading not working. Cool. Preach! Preach, Sarah. I'm like I'm going to let her cook. [00:13:44] She's going! [00:13:45] Sarah: I hear it because I hear it all the time, "Oh, I need an operator. Great. What are the things they're going to do?" [00:13:50] "Oh, they're going to handle my admin work. They're going to do my leasing." Not an operator. Right. Great, fantastic, that's the role that you need. [00:13:57] It's not an operator.  [00:13:58] Jason: Operator is not a worker. They're like, "I need a worker. I need a worker to do work." There's a little confusion there. Okay, cool. So, in short, operator is going to help with people, planning, and process in the business. We call those three systems that are key part of the super system. [00:14:15] So if this is of interest to any of you listening and you would like to get things flowing and working really well in your business and find these game changing people to build out your team so that you've got the right people to help you grow it, the right people to help you scale it, the right people to help you run it, then reach out to DoorGrow. [00:14:33] We would love to coach and support you and help you get your business to the next level. And that's it for today.  [00:14:40] Sarah: Oh, and if you're not yet in our facebook group, you should check that out!  [00:14:44] Jason: Oh, yeah DoorGrowclub.Com. Join our facebook group. All right until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:14:52] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:15:18] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Stephanie shares about her vacation at Disney World, particularly emphasizing the technological advancements in the park's mobile app that made her visit remarkably frictionless. Joël had a conversation about a topic he loves: units of measure, and he got to go deep into the idea of dimensional analysis with someone this week. Together, Joël and Stephanie talk about module documentation within software development. Joël shares his recent experience writing module docs for a Ruby project using the YARD documentation system. He highlights the time-consuming nature of crafting good documentation for each public method in a class, emphasizing that while it's a demanding task, it significantly benefits those who will use the code in the future. They explore the attributes of good documentation, including providing code examples, explaining expected usage, suggesting alternatives, discussing edge cases, linking to external resources, and detailing inputs, outputs, and potential side effects. Multidimensional numbers episode (https://bikeshed.thoughtbot.com/416) YARD docs (https://yardoc.org/) New factory_bot documentation (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/new-docs-for-factory_bot) Dash (https://kapeli.com/dash) Solargraph (https://solargraph.org/) Transcript:  JOËL: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Joël Quenneville. STEPHANIE: And I'm Stephanie Minn, and together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. JOËL: So, Stephanie, what's new in your world? STEPHANIE: So, I recently was on vacation, and I'm excited [chuckles] to tell our listeners all about it. I went to Disney World [laughs]. And honestly, I was especially struck by the tech that they used there. As a person who works in tech, I always kind of have a little bit of a different experience knowing a bit more about software, I suppose, than just your regular person [laughs], citizen. And so, at Disney World, I was really impressed by how seamlessly the like, quote, unquote, "real life experience" integrated with their use of their branded app to pair with, like, your time at the theme park. JOËL: This is, like, an app that runs on your mobile device? STEPHANIE: Yeah, it's a mobile app. I haven't been to Disney in a really long time. I think the last time I went was just as a kid, like, this was, you know, pre-mobile phones. So, I recall when you get into the line at a ride, you can skip the line by getting what's called a fast pass. And so, you kind of take a ticket, and it tells you a designated time to come back so that you could get into the fast line, and you don't have to wait as long. And now all this stuff is on your mobile app, and I basically did not wait in [laughs] a single line for more than, like, five minutes to go on any of the rides I wanted. It just made a lot of sense that all these things that previously had more, like, physical touchstones, were made a bit more convenient. And I hesitate to use the word frictionless, but I would say that accurately describes the experience. JOËL: That's kind of amazing; the idea that you can use tech to make a place that's incredibly busy also feel seamless and where you don't have to wait in line. STEPHANIE: Yeah and, actually, I think the coolest part was it blended both your, like, physical experience really well with your digital one. I think that's kind of a gripe I have as a technologist [laughs] when I'm just kind of too immersed in my screen as opposed to the world around me. But I was really impressed by the way that they managed to make it, like, a really good supplement to your experience being there. JOËL: So, you're not hyped for a future world where you can visit Disney in VR? STEPHANIE: I mean, I just don't think it's the same. I rode a ride [laughs] where it was kind of like a mini roller coaster. It was called Expedition Everest. And there's a moment, this is, like, mostly indoors, but there's a moment where the roller coaster is going down outside, and you're getting that freefall, like, drop feeling in your stomach. And it also happened to be, like, drizzling that day that we were out there, and I could feel it, you know, like, pelting my head [laughs]. And until VR can replicate that experience [chuckles], I still think that going to Disney is pretty fun. JOËL: Amazing. STEPHANIE: So, Joël, what's new in your world? JOËL: I'm really excited because I had a conversation about a topic that I like to talk about: units of measure. And I got to go deep into the idea of dimensional analysis with someone this week. This is a technique where you can look at a calculation or a function and sort of spot-check whether it's correct by looking at whether the unit for the measure that would come out match what you would expect. So, you do math on the units and ignore the numbers coming into your formula. And, you know, let's say you're calculating the speed of something, and you get a distance and the amount of time it took you to take to go that distance. And let's say your method implements this as distance times time. Forget about doing the actual math with the numbers here; just look at the units and say, okay, we've got our meters, and we've got our seconds, and we're multiplying them together. The unit that comes out of this method is meters times seconds. You happen to know that speeds are not measured in meters times seconds. They're measured in meters divided by seconds or meters per second. So, immediately, you get a sense of, like, wait a minute, something's wrong here. I must have a bug in my function. STEPHANIE: Interesting. I'm curious how you're representing that data to, like, know if there's a bug or not. In my head, when you were talking about that, I'm like, oh yeah, I definitely recall doing, like, math problems for homework [laughs] where I had, you know, my meters per second. You have your little fractions written out, and then when you multiply or divide, you know how to, like, deal with the units on your piece of paper where you're showing your work. But I'm having a hard time imagining what that looks like as a programmer dealing with that problem. JOËL: You could do it just all in your head based off of maybe some comments that you might have or the name of the variable or something. So, you're like, okay, well, I have a distance in meters and a time in seconds, and I'm multiplying the two. Therefore, what should be coming out is a value that is in meters times seconds. If you want to get fancier, you can do things with value objects of different types. So, you say, okay, I have a distance, and I have a time. And so, now I have sort of a multiplication of a distance and a time, and sort of what is that coming out as? That can sometimes help you prevent from having some of these mistakes because you might have some kind of error that gets raised at runtime where it's like, hey, you're trying to multiply two units that shouldn't be multiplied, or whatever it is. You can also, in some languages, do this sort of thing automatically at the type level. So, instead of looking at it yourself and sort of inferring it all on your own based off of the written code, languages like F# have built-in unit-of-measure systems where once you sort of tag numbers as just being of a particular unit of measure, any time you do math with those numbers, it will then tag the result with whatever compound unit comes from that operation. So, you have meters, and you have seconds. You divide one by the other, and now the result gets tagged as meters per second. And then, if you have another calculation that takes the output of the first one and it comes in, you can tell the compiler via type signature, hey, the input for this method needs to be in meters per second. And if the other calculation sort of automatically builds something that's of a different unit, you'll get a compilation error. So, it's really cool what it can do. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that is really neat. I like all of those built-in guardrails, I suppose, to help you, you know, make sure that your answer is correct. Definitely could have used that [chuckles]. Turns out I just needed a calculator to take my math test with [laughs]. JOËL: I think what I find valuable more than sort of the very rigorous approach is the mindset. So, anytime you're dealing with numbers, thinking in your mind, what is the unit of this number? When I do math with it with a different number, is it the same unit? Is it a different unit? What is the unit of the thing that's coming out? Does this operation make sense in the domain of my application? Because it's easy to sometimes think you're doing a math operation that makes sense, and then when you look at the unit, you're like, wait a minute, this does not make sense. And I would go so far as to say that, you know, you might think, oh, I'm not doing a physics app. I don't care about units of measure. Most numbers in your app that are actually numbers are going to have some kind of unit of measure associated to them. Occasionally, you might have something where it's just, like, a straight-up, like, quantity or something like that. It's a dimensionless number. But most things will have some sort of unit. Maybe it's a number of dollars. Maybe it is an amount of time, a duration. It could be a distance. It could be all sorts of things. Typically, there is some sort of unit that should attach to it. STEPHANIE: Yeah. That makes sense that you would want to be careful about making sure that your mathematical operations that you're doing when you're doing objects make sense. And we did talk about this in the last episode about multidimensional numbers a little bit. And I suppose I appreciate you saying that because I think I have mostly benefited from other people having thought in that mindset before and encoding, like I mentioned, those guardrails. So, I can recall an app where I was working with, you know, some kind of currency or money object, and that error was raised when I would try to divide by zero because rather than kind of having to find out later with some, not a number or infinite [laughs] amount of money bug, it just didn't let me do that. And that wasn't something that I had really thought about, you know, I just hadn't considered that zero value edge case when I was working on whatever feature I was building. JOËL: Yeah, or even just generally the idea of dividing money. What does that even mean? Are you taking an amount of money and splitting it into two equivalent piles to split among multiple people? That kind of makes sense. Are you dividing money by another money value? That's now asking a very different kind of question. You're asking, like, what is the ratio between these two, I guess, piles of money if we want to make it, you know, in the physical world? Is that a thing that makes sense in your application? But also, realize that that ratio that you get back is not itself an amount of money. And so, there are some subtle bugs that can happen around that when you don't keep track of what your quantities are. So, this past week, I've been working on a project where I ended up having to write module docs for the code in question. This is a Ruby project, so I'm writing docs using the YARD documentation system, where you effectively just write code comments at the sort of high level covering the entire class and then, also, individual documentation comments on each of the methods. And that's been really interesting because I have done this in other languages, but I'd never done it in Ruby before. And this is a piece of code that was kind of gnarly and had been tricky for me to figure out. And I figured that a couple of these classes could really benefit from some more in-depth documentation. And I'm curious, in your experience, Stephanie, as someone who's writing code, using code from other people, and who I assume occasionally reads documentation, what are the things that you like to see in good sort of method-level docs? STEPHANIE: Personally, I'm really only reading method-level docs when, you know, at this point, I'm, like, reaching for a method. I want to figure out how to use it in my use case right now [laughs]. So, I'm going to search API documentation for it. And I really am just scanning for inputs, especially, I think, and maybe looking at, you know, some potential various, like, options or, like, variations of how to use the method. But I'm kind of just searching for that at a glance and then moving on [laughs] with my day. That is kind of my main interaction with module docs like that, and especially ones for Ruby and Rails methods. JOËL: And for clarity's sake, I think when we're talking about module docs here, I'm generally thinking of, like, any sort of documentation that sort of comments in code meant to document. It could be the whole modular class. It could be on a per-method level, things like RDoc or YARD docs on Ruby classes. You used the word API docs here. I think that's a pretty similar idea. STEPHANIE: I really haven't given the idea of writing this kind of documentation a lot of thought because I've never had to do too much of it before, but I know, recently, you have been diving deep into it because, you know, like you said, you found these classes that you were working with a bit ambiguous, I suppose, or just confusing. And I'm wondering what kind of came out of that journey. What are some of the most interesting aspects of doing this exercise? JOËL: And one of the big ones, and it's not a fun one, but it is time-consuming. Writing good docs per method for a couple of classes takes a lot of time, and I understand why people don't do it all the time. STEPHANIE: What kinds of things were you finding warranted that time? Like, you know, you had to, at some point, decide, like, whether or not you're going to document any particular method. And what were some of the things you were looking out for as good reasons to do it? JOËL: I was making the decisions to document or not document on a class level, and then every public method gets documentation. If there's a big public API, that means every single one of those methods is getting some documentation comments, explaining what they do, how they're meant to be used, things like that. I think my kind of conclusion, having worked with this, is that the sort of sweet spot for this sort of documentation is for anything that is library-like, so a lot of things that maybe would go into a Rails lib directory might make sense. Anything you're turning into a gem that probably makes sense. And sometimes you have things in your Rails codebase that are effectively kind of library-like, and that was the case for the code that I was dealing with. It was almost like a mini ORM style kind of ActiveRecord-inspired series of base classes that had a bunch of metaprogramming to allow you to write models that were backed by not a database but a headless CMS, a content management system. And so, these classes are not extracted to the lib directory or, like, made into a gem, but they feel very library-esque in that way. STEPHANIE: Library-like; I like that descriptor a lot because it immediately made me think of another example of a time when I've used or at least, like, consumed this type of documentation in a, like, SaaS repo. Rather, you know, I'm not really seeing that level of documentation around domain objects, but I noticed that they really did a lot of extending of the application record class because they just had some performance needs that they needed to write some, like, custom code to handle. And so, they ended up kind of writing a lot of their own ORM-like methods for just some, like, custom callbacks on persisting and some just, like, bulk insertion functionality. And those came with a lot of different ways to use them. And I really appreciated that they were heavily documented, kind of like you would expect those ActiveRecord methods to be as well. JOËL: So, I've been having some conversations with other members at thoughtbot about when they like to use the style of module doc. What are some of the alternatives? And one that kept coming up for different people that they would contrast with this is what they would call the big README approach, and this could be for a whole gem, or it could be maybe some directory with a few classes in your application that's got a README in the root of the directory. And instead of documenting each method, you just write a giant README trying to answer sort of all of the questions that you anticipate people will ask. Is that something that you've seen, and how do you feel about that as a tool when you're looking for help? STEPHANIE: Yes. I actually really like that style of documentation. I find that I just want examples to get me started, especially; I guess this is especially true for libraries that I'm not super familiar with but need to just get a working knowledge about kind of immediately. So, I like to see examples, the getting started, the just, like, here's what you need to know. And as I start to use them, that will get me rolling. But then, if I find I need more details, then I will try to seek out more specific information that might come in the form of class method documentation. But I'm actually thinking about how FactoryBot has one of the best big README-esque [laughs] style of documentation, and I think they did a really big refresh of the docs not too long ago. It has all that high-level stuff, and then it has more specific information on how to use, you know, the most common methods to construct your factories. But those are very detailed, and yet they do sit, like, separately from inline, like, code documentation in the style of module docs that we're talking about. So, it is kind of an interesting mix of both that I think is helpful for me personally when I want both the “what do I need to know now?” And the, “like, okay, I know where to look for if I need something a little more detailed.” JOËL: Yeah. The two don't need to be mutually exclusive. I thought it was interesting that you mentioned how much examples are valuable to you because...I don't know if this is controversial, but an opinion that I have about sort of per-method documentation is that you should always default to having a code example for every method. I don't care how simple it is or how obvious it is what it does. Show me a code example because, as a developer, examples are really, really helpful. And so, seeing that makes documentation a lot more valuable than just a couple of lines that explain something that was maybe already obvious from the title of the method. I want to see it in action. STEPHANIE: Interesting. Do you want to see it where the method definition is? JOËL: Yes. Because sometimes the method definition, like, the implementation, might be sort of complex. And so, just seeing a couple of examples, like, oh, you call with this input, you get that. Call with this other input; you get this other thing. And we see this in, you know, some of the core docs for things like the enumerable methods where having an example there to be like, oh, so that's how map works. It returns this thing under these circumstances. That sort of thing is really helpful. And then, I'll try to do it at a sort of a bigger level for that class itself. You have a whole paragraph about here's the purpose of the class. Here's how you should use it. And then, here's an example of how you might use it. Particularly, if this is some sort of, like, base class you're meant to inherit from, here's the circumstances you would want to subclass this, and then here's the methods you would likely want to override. And maybe here are the DSLs you might want to have and to kind of package that in, like, a little example of, in this case, if you wanted a model that read from the headless CMS, here's what an example of such a little model might look like. So, it's kind of that putting it all together, which I think is nice in the module docs. It could probably also live in the big README at some level. STEPHANIE: Yeah. As you are saying that, I also thought about how I usually go search for tests to find examples of usage, but I tend to get really overwhelmed when I see inline, like, that much inline documentation. I have to, like, either actively ignore it, choose to ignore it, or be like, okay, I'm reading this now [laughs]. Because it just takes up so much visual space, honestly. And I know you put a lot of work into it, a lot of time, but maybe it's because of the color of my editor theme where comments are just that, like, light gray [laughs]. I find them quite easy to just ignore. But I'm sure there will be some time where I'm like, okay, like, if I need them, I know they're there. JOËL: Yeah, that is, I think, a downside, right? It makes it harder to browse the code sometimes because maybe your entire screen is almost taken up by documentation, and then, you know, you have one method up, and you've got to, like, scroll through another page of documentation before you hit the next method, and that makes it harder to browse. And maybe that's something that plays into the idea of that separation between library-esque code versus application code. When you browse library-esque code, when you're actually browsing the source, you're probably doing it for different reasons than you would for code in your application because, at that point, you're effectively source diving, sometimes being like, oh, I know this class probably has a method that will do the thing I want. Where is it? Or you're like, there's an edge case I don't understand on this method. I wonder what it does. Let me look at the implementation. Or even some existing code in the app is using this library method. I don't know what it does, but they call this method, and I can't figure out why they're using it. Let me look at the source of the library and see what it does under the hood. STEPHANIE: Yeah. I like the distinction of it is kind of a different mindset that you're reading the code at, where, like, sometimes my brain is already ready to just read code and try to figure out inputs and outputs that way. And other times, I'm like, oh, like, I actually can't parse this right now [chuckles]. Like, I want to read just English, like, telling me what to expect or, like, what to look out for, especially when, like you said, I'm not really, like, trying to figure out some strange bug that would lead me to diving deep in the source code. It's I'm at the level where I'm just reaching for a method and wanting to use it. We're writing these YARD docs. I think I also heard you mention that you gave some, like, tips or maybe some gotchas about how to use certain methods. I'm curious why that couldn't have been captured in a more, like, self-documenting way. Or was there a way that you could have written the code for that not to have been needed as a comment or documented as that? And was there a way that method names could have been clear to signal, like, the intention that you were trying to convey through your documentation? JOËL: I'm a big fan of using method names as a form of documentation, but they're frequently not good enough. And I think comments, whether they're just regular inline comments or more official documentation, can be really good to help avoid sort of common pitfalls. And one that I was working with was, there were two methods, and one would find by a UID, so it would search up a document by UID. And another one would search by ID. And when I was attempting to use these before I even started documenting, I used the wrong one, and it took me a while to realize, oh wait, these things have both UIDs and IDs, and they're slightly different, and sometimes you want to use one or the other. The method names, you know, said like, "Find by ID" or "Find by UID." I didn't realize there were both at the time because I wasn't browsing the source. I was just seeing a place where someone had used it. And then, when I did find it in the source, I'm like, well, what is the difference? And so, something that I did when I wrote the docs was sort of call out on both of those methods; by the way, there is also find by UID. If you're searching by UID, consider using the other one. If you don't know what the difference is, here's a sentence summarizing the difference. And then, here's a link to external documentation if you want to dive into the nitty gritty of why there are two and what the differences are. And I think that's something you can't capture in just a method name. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that's true. I like that a lot. Another use case you can think of is when method names are aliased, and it's like, I don't know how I would have possibly known that until I, you know, go through the journey of realizing [laughs] that these two methods do the same thing or, like, stumbling upon where the aliasing happens. But if that were captured in, like, a little note when I'm in, like, a documentation viewer or something, it's just kind of, like, a little tidbit of knowledge [laughs] that I get to gain along the way that ends up, you know, being useful later because I will have just kind of...I will likely remember having seen something like that. And I can at least start my search with a little bit more context than when you don't know what you don't know. JOËL: I put a lot of those sorts of notes on different methods. A lot of them are probably based on a personal story where I made a mistaken assumption about this method, and then it burned me. But I'm like, okay, nobody else is going to make that mistake. By the way, if you think this is what the method does, it does something slightly different and, you know, here's why you need to know that. STEPHANIE: Yeah, you're just looking out for other devs. JOËL: And, you know, trying to, like, take my maybe negative experience and saying like, "How can I get value out of that?" Maybe it doesn't feel great that I lost an hour to something weird about a method. But now that I have spent that hour, can I get value out of it? Is the sort of perspective I try to have on that. So, you mentioned kind of offhand earlier the idea of a documentation viewer, which would be separate than just reading these, I guess, code comments directly in your code editor. What sort of documentation viewers do you like to use? STEPHANIE: I mostly search in my browser, you know, just the official documentation websites for Rails, at least. And then I know that there are also various options for Ruby as well. And I think I had mentioned it before but using DuckDuckGo as my search engine. I have nice bang commands that will just take me straight to the search for those websites, which is really nice. Though, I have paired with people before who used various, like, macOS applications to do something similar. I think Alfred might have some built-in workflows for that. And then, a former co-worker used to use one called Dash, that I have seen before, too. So, it's another one of those just handy just, like, search productivity extensions. JOËL: You mentioned the Rails documentation, and this is separate from the guides. But the actual Rails docs are generated from comments like this inline in code. So, all the different ActiveRecord methods, when you search on the Rails documentation you're like, oh yeah, how does find_by work? And they've got a whole, like, paragraph explaining how it works with a couple of examples. That's this kind of documentation. If you open up that particular file in the source code, you'll find the comments. And it makes sense for Rails because Rails is more of, you know, library-esque code. And you and I search these docs pretty frequently, although we don't tend to do it, like, by opening the Rails gem and, like, grepping through the source to find the code comment. We do it through either a documentation site that's been compiled from that source or that documentation that's been extracted into an offline tool, like you'd mentioned, Dash. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I realized how conflicting, I suppose, it is for me to say that I find inline documentation really overwhelming or visually distracting, whereas I recognize that the only reason I can have that nice, you know, viewing experience is because documentation viewers use the code comments in that format to be generated. JOËL: I wonder if there's like a sort of...I don't know what this pattern is called, but a bit of a, like, middle-quality trap where if you're going to source dive, like, you'd rather just look at the code and not have too much clutter from sort of mediocre comments. But if the documentation is really good and you have the tooling to read it, then you don't even need to source dive at all. You can just read the documentation, and that's sufficient. So, both extremes are good, but that sort of middle kind of one foot in each camp is sort of the worst of both worlds experience. Because I assume when you look for Rails documentation, you never open up the actual codebase to search. The documentation is good enough that you don't even need to look at the files with the comments and the code. STEPHANIE: Yeah, and I'm just recalling now there's, like, a UI feature to view the source from the documentation viewer page. JOËL: Yes. STEPHANIE: I use that actually quite a bit if the comments are a little bit sparse and I need just the code to supplement my understanding, and that is really nice. But you're right, like, I very rarely would be source diving, unless it's a last resort [laughs], let's be honest. JOËL: So, we've talked about documentation viewers and how that can make things nice, and you're able to read documentation for things. But a lot of other tooling can benefit from this sort of model documentation as well, and I'm thinking, in particular, Solargraph, which is Ruby's language server protocol. And it has plugins for VS Code, for Vim, for a few different editors, takes advantage of that to provide all sorts of things. So, you can get smart expansion of code and good suggestions. You can get documentation for what's under your cursor. Maybe you're reading somebody else's code that they've written, and you're like, why are they calling this parameterized method here? What does that even do? Like, in VS Code, you could just hover over it, and it will pop up and show you documentation, including the, like, inputs and return types, and things like that. That's pretty nifty. STEPHANIE: Yeah, that is cool. I use VS Code, but I've not seen that too much yet because I don't think I've worked in enough codebases with really comprehensive [laughs] YARD docs. I'm actually wondering, tooling-wise, did you use any helpful tools when you were writing them or were you hand-documenting each? JOËL: I was hand-documenting everything. STEPHANIE: Class. Okay. JOËL: The thing that I did use is the YARD gem, which you don't need to have the gem to write YARD-style documentation. But if you have the gem, you can run a local server and then preview a documentation site that is generated from your comments that has everything in there. And that was incredibly helpful for me as I was trying to sort of see an overview of, okay, what would someone who's looking at the docs generated from this see when they're trying to look for what the documentation of a particular method does? STEPHANIE: Yeah, and that's really nice. JOËL: Something that I am curious about that I've not really had a lot of experience with is whether or not having extra documentation like that can help AI tools give us better suggestions. STEPHANIE: Yeah, I don't know the answer to that either, but I would be really curious to know if that is already something that happens with something like Copilot. JOËL: Do better docs help machines, or are they for humans only? STEPHANIE: Whoa, that's a very [laughs] philosophical question, I think. It would make sense, though, that if we already have ways to parse and compile this kind of documentation, then I can see that incorporating them into the types of, like, generative problems that AI quote, unquote "solves" [chuckles] would be really interesting to find out. But anyone listening who kind of knows the answer to that or has experience working with AI tools and various types of code comment documentation would be really curious to know what your experience is like and if it improves your development workflow. So, for people who might be interested in getting better at documenting their code in the style of module docs, what would you say are some really great attributes of good documentation in this form? JOËL: I think, first of all, you have to write from the motivation of, like, if you were confused and wanting to better understand what a method does, what would you like to see? And I think coming from that perspective, and that was, in my case, I had been that person, and then I was like, okay, now that I've figured it out, I'm going to write it so that the next person is not confused. I have five or six things that I think were really valuable to add to the docs, a few of which we've already mentioned. But rapid fire, first of all, code example. I love code examples. I want a code example on every method. An explanation of expected usage. Here's what the method does. Here's how we expect you to use this method in any extra context about sort of intended use. Callouts for suggested alternatives. If there are methods that are similar, or there's maybe a sort of common mistake that you would reach for this method, put some sort of call out to say, "Hey, you probably came here trying to do X. If that's what you were actually trying to do, you should use method Y." Beyond that, a discussion of edge cases, so any sort of weird ways the method behaves. You know, when you pass nil to it, does it behave differently? If you call it in a different context, does it behave differently? I want to know that so that I'm not totally surprised. Links to external resources–really great if I want to, like, dig deeper. Is this method built on some sort of, like, algorithm that's documented elsewhere? Please link to that algorithm. Is this method integrating with some, like, third-party API? You know, they have some documentation that we could link to to go deeper into, like, what these search options do. Link to that. External links are great. I could probably find it by Googling myself, but you are going to make me very happy as a developer if you already give me the link. You'd mentioned capturing inputs and outputs. That's a great thing to scan for. Inputs and outputs, though, are more sometimes than just the arguments and return values. Although if we're talking about arguments, any sort of options hash, please document the keys that go in that because that's often not obvious from the code. And I've spent a lot of time source diving and jumping between methods trying to figure out like, what are the options I can pass to this hash? Beyond the explicit inputs and outputs, though, anything that is global state that you rely on. So, do you need to read something from an environment variable or even a global variable or something like that that might make this method behave differently in different situations? Please document that. Any situations where you might raise an error that I might not expect or that I might want to rescue from, let me know what are the potential errors that might get raised. And then, finally, any sorts of side effects. Does this method make a network call? Are you writing to the file system? I'd like to know that, and I'd have to, like, figure it out by trial and error. And sometimes, it will be obvious in just the description of the method, right? Oh, this method pulls data from a third-party API. That's pretty clear. But maybe it does some sort of, like, caching in the background or something to a file that's not really important. But maybe I'm trying to do a unit test that involves this, and now, all of a sudden, I have to do some weird stubbing. I'd like to know that upfront. So, those are kind of all the things I would love to have in my sort of ideal documentation comment that would make my life easier as a developer when trying to use some code. STEPHANIE: Wow. What a passionate plea [laughs]. I was very into listening to you list all of that. You got very animated. And it makes a lot of sense because I feel like these are kind of just the day-to-day developer issues we run into in our work and would be so awesome if, especially as the, you know, author where you have figured all of this stuff out, the author of a, you know, a method or a class, to just kind of tell us these things so we don't have to figure it out ourselves. I guess I also have to respond to that by saying, on one hand, I totally get, like, you want to be saved [chuckles] from those common pitfalls. But I think that part of our work is just going through that and playing around and exploring with the code in front of us, and we learn all of that along the way. And, ultimately, even if that is all provided to you, there is something about, like, going through it yourself that gives you a different perspective on it. And, I don't know, maybe it's just my bias against [laughs] all the inline text, but I've also seen a lot of that type of information captured at different levels of documentation. So, maybe it is a Confluence doc or in a wiki talking about, you know, common gotchas for this particular problem that they were trying to solve. And I think what's really cool is that, you know, everyone can kind of be served and that people have different needs that different styles of documentation can meet. So, for anyone diving deep in the source code, they can see all of those examples inline. But, for me, as a big Googler [laughs], I want to see just a nice, little web app to get me the information that I need to find. I'm happy having that a little bit more, like, extracted from my source code. JOËL: Right. You don't want to have to read the source code with all the comments in it. I think that's a fair criticism and, yeah, probably a downside of this. And I'm wondering, there might be some editor tooling that allows you to just collapse all comments and hide them if you wanted to focus on just the code. STEPHANIE: Yeah, someone, please build that for me. That's my passionate plea [laughs]. And on that note, shall we wrap up? JOËL: Let's wrap up. STEPHANIE: Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. JOËL: This show has been produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPHANIE: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes. It really helps other folks find the show. JOËL: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed, or you can reach me @joelquen on Twitter. STEPHANIE: Or reach both of us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. JOËL: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Bye. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

Why are so many mental health professionals, researchers, and activists critiquing the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)? In this episode, we dive deep into the complexities surrounding mental health diagnoses and explore the limitations and hazards of labeling and codifying human experiences. We look at why researchers have called the DSM “scientifically meaningless” as statistically unreliable and invalid and what this means for those receiving diagnoses. We look at who gets to decide what is normal vs. abnormal human behavior, and why more input is needed from other related fields to truly do justice to the nuances of human emotion and behavior. Key Topics Discussed: Limitations of labeling and codifying human experiences Reliability and validity of the DSM and the absence of biomarkers The development of the DSM and its political underpinnings Why pathologizing can be antithetical to healing Links: IDHA - www.idha-nyc.org Research: Kate Allsop's Research in Neuroscience News: https://neurosciencenews.com/meaningless-psychiatric-diagnosis-14434/ Cracked: Why Psychiatry is Doing More Harm Than Good by James Davies The Reliability of Psychiatric Diagnoses: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2990547/ & https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2017.00101/full New Version of DSM critique https://www.madinamerica.com/2022/02/new-dsm-coming/ RDOC - https://www.nimh.nih.gov/research/research-funded-by-nimh/rdoc JAMA article on other biological factors https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abstract/2804355 Once Radical Critiques of Psychiatry are Now Mainstream, So What Remains Taboo? by Bruce Levine - https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/05/05/once-radical-critiques-of-psychiatry-are-now-mainstream-so-what-remains-taboo/ Criticisms of psychiatry: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/its-time-for-us-to-stop-being-so-defensive-about-criticisms-of-psychiatry Disclaimer: The DEPTH Work Podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Any information on this podcast in no way to be construed or substituted as psychological counseling, psychotherapy, mental health counseling, or any other type of therapy or medical advice.

Link to bioRxiv paper: http://biorxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2023.05.04.539430v1?rss=1 Authors: Vogelgsang, J. S., Dan, S., Lally, A. P., Chatigny, M., Vempatia, S., Abston, J., Durning, P. T., Oakley, D. H., McCoy, T. H., Klengel, T., Berretta, S. Abstract: INTRODUCTION: Transdiagnostic dimensional phenotypes are essential to investigate the relationship between continuous symptom dimensions and pathological changes. This is a fundamental challenge to postmortem work, as assessment of newly developed phenotypic concepts needs to rely on existing records. METHODS: We adapted well-validated methodologies to compute NIMH research domain criteria (RDoC) scores using natural language processing (NLP) from electronic health records (EHRs) obtained from post-mortem brain donors and tested whether RDoC cognitive domain scores were associated with hallmark Alzheimers disease (AD) neuropathological measures. RESULTS: Our results confirm an association of EHR-derived cognitive scores with hallmark neuropathological findings. Notably, higher neuropathological load, particularly neuritic plaques, was associated with higher cognitive burden scores in the frontal (beta=0.38, p=0.0004), parietal (beta=0.35, p=0.0008), temporal (beta=0.37, p=0. 0004) and occipital (beta=0.37, p=0.0003) lobes. DISCUSSION: This proof of concept study supports the validity of NLP-based methodologies to obtain quantitative measures of RDoC clinical domains from postmortem EHR. Copy rights belong to original authors. Visit the link for more info Podcast created by Paper Player, LLC

In today's episode of Psych Talk, I discuss the symptom overlap in mental health diagnoses as classified by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. As many people are aware, there are various symptoms of mental health disorders that are found across multiple diagnoses, which can complicate getting the correct diagnosis or result in individuals receiving multiple diagnoses based on a few symptoms. A few weeks ago, there was a paper, Elemental Psychopathology: Distilling constituent symptoms and patterns of repetition in the diagnostic criteria of the DSM-5, going around Twitter that researched the overlap in symptoms across mental health diagnoses. In this episode, I break down the methods and findings of the research paper and discuss implications of such, including how this impacts diagnosing, both by a mental health professional and self-diagnosis, as well as research implications. Further, I discussed proposed alternative classification systems to the DSM including RDoc, Network Analysis, and HiTOP. Mentioned in this Episode: Elemental Psychopathology: Distilling constituent symptoms and patterns of repetition in the diagnostic criteria of the DSM-5 Connect with Me: Follow me on IG @jessicaleighphd Follow the podcast on IG @psych.talk.podcast Follow me on TikTok @jessicaleighphd Follow me on Youtube  Welcome to Group Therapy Podcast Join my Facebook community: Grow Through What You Go Through Ways to Work With Me: Mind Over Matter LGBTQ+ Affirming Masterclass Be a guest on my podcast Resources: Anti-Racism Resources LGBTQ+ Affirming Resources The Helping Professional's Guide to Boundary Setting Intro/Outro Music: Life of Riley by Kevin MacLeod Music License

Link to bioRxiv paper: http://biorxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2023.02.28.530477v1?rss=1 Authors: Naik, A. A., Munyeshyaka, M., Ma, X., Leibenluft, E., Li, Z. Abstract: Background: Irritability, which can be defined as proneness to anger that can reach a pathological extent, is one of the most common reasons youth present for psychiatric evaluation and care. Aberrant responses to frustrative non-reward (FNR, the response to omission of an expected reward) are central to the pathophysiology of irritability. FNR is a cross-species RDoC construct. The development of preclinical FNR models could advance mechanistic studies of the important, and relatively understudied, clinical phenomenon of irritability. Methods: We used FNR, a translational construct across species, as a conceptual framework for a novel behavioral paradigm (Alternate Poking Reward Omission, APRO) in mice. After APRO, mice were examined with a battery of behavioral tests to determine the effects of frustration. Also, whole brain imaging of c-Fos expression was used to identify brain regions activated by FNR. Results: Mice, regardless of sex, increased locomotion, and aggression towards conspecifics after APRO. There was no change in anxiety-like, depression-like, or non-aggressive social behaviors. APRO causes activation of 13 regions in the prelimbic, ACC, hippocampus, dorsal thalamus, cuneiform nucleus, pons, and pallidum areas, and shifts the brain network towards a more global processing mode. Conclusion: Our novel FNR paradigm produces a frustration effect and alters brain processing in ways resembling the symptoms and brain network reconfiguration observed in youth with severe irritability. The novel behavioral paradigm and brain regions identified to be selectively activated by it lay the groundwork for further mechanistic studies of frustration and irritability in rodents. Copy rights belong to original authors. Visit the link for more info Podcast created by Paper Player, LLC

Welcome to PsychEd, the psychiatry podcast for medical learners, by medical learners. In this episode, we present a focused summary of the latest changes in The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-5-TR) with our guest expert — Dr. Michael First, a Professor of Clinical Psychiatry at Columbia University, NY. Dr. First is an internationally recognized expert on psychiatric diagnosis and assessment issues, he is the editor and co-chair of the DSM-5 text revision project (DSM-5-TR), the editorial and coding Consultant for the DSM-5, the chief technical and editorial consultant on the World Health Organization ICD-11 revision project and was an external consultant to the NIMH Research Domain Criteria project (RDOC).   The learning objectives for this episode are as follows: Understand the rationale for undertaking a DSM-5-TR as well as the revision process itself  To become familiar with disorder, text and symptom code additions and modifications to the DSM-5-TR  To understand the purpose and function of the DSM in its current form and be able to contemplate future directions   Guest Expert: Dr. Michael First – staff psychiatrist and professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University, USA. Produced and hosted by: Dr. Alex Raben (staff psychiatrist) and Saja Jaberi (international medical graduate) Audio editing by: Dr. Alex Raben Show notes by: Saja Jaberi Interview Content: 2:53 - Learning objectives 3:34 - Brief description of the DSM and its history 4:54 – ICD vs. DSM  7:43 - Rationale behind the new revision 11:11 - Characteristics of the DSM-5-TR revision process and the people behind it 16:54 - Case presentation and Differential Diagnosis 23:07 - Prolonged Greif disorder 27:04 - Most important changes to the terminology used in the manual 39:34 - Pros and cons of the DSM 44:30 - A brief Comparison to the RDOC Framework 49:04 – Future Directions of the DSM   References American Psychiatric Association. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. 5th ed. 2013. American Psychiatric Association. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. 5th Text Revision ed. 2022.  DSM-5-TR Fact Sheets https://psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/practice/dsm/educational-resources/dsm-5-tr-fact-sheets   CPA Note: The views expressed in this podcast do not necessarily reflect those of the Canadian Psychiatric Association.   For more PsychEd, follow us on Twitter (@psychedpodcast), Facebook (PsychEd Podcast), and Instagram (@psyched.podcast). You can provide feedback by email at psychedpodcast@gmail.com. For more information, visit our website at psychedpodcast.org.

Dr. Teresa Treat, Professor of Psychology at University of Iowa, interviews Bruce Cuthbert, Head of the Research Domain Criteria (RDoC) Unit at the United States National Institute of Mental Health.  Interviewed on February 8, 2022.

Peter talks to Dr. Lucina Uddin about the constant struggle shared by all scientists in the field of neuroimaging to find the right paradigms, acquisition tools, and analysis approaches to add insight into fundamentals of brain organization and how it relates to behavior. They talk about cognitive flexibility, Autism, the salience network, and the need for an ontology of network nomenclature so that the field can better communicate, share, and understand findings. They also discuss the NIH's goal of having a research domain criteria (RDoC) to organize and understand disorders in a more brain data-driven manner. Lastly, they discuss her perspective on advancing diversity in science. It was a fun conversation that put in perspective the many challenges facing functional brain imaging research. Guest: Lucina Uddin received her B.S. in 2001 in Neuroscience and her Ph.D in Psychology/Cognitive Neuroscience, both from UCLA. From 2006 to 2008 she did a postdoc at NYU School of Medicine and from 2008 to 2010 performed a second postdoc at Stanford Cognitive and Systems Neuroscience Laboratory. From 2010 to 2013 she was an instructor in the Stanford School of Medicine, Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Science. In 2014 she moved to the University of Miami and in 2018 became, as an Associate Professor, the Director of Cognitive and Behavioral Neuroscience Division. She is a Handling Editor of the journal NeuroImage and Senior Editor of the journal Network Neuroscience. She's written two books, “Insula” in 2014 and “Salience Network of the Human Brain” in 2016. She won the OHBM young investigator award in 2017 and the OHBM diversity award in 2021. Over the past 15 years, Lucina has rapidly risen in the ranks of respected cognitive neuroscientists who effectively and creatively use cutting edge MRI and fMRI. She and her lab investigate the relationship between brain connectivity and cognition in typical and atypical development, welding the tools of functional connectivity analyses of resting-state functional magnetic resonance imaging data as well as structural connectivity analyses of diffusion-weighted imaging data. For more info on the Neurosalience podcast and the guests, visit ohbmbrainmappingblog.com

If the past 1.5 years have had a dynamic impact on your day to day stress, you're not alone! We know that chronic, unresolved stress can drive serious bodily damage and we now know that it can impact us to the level of our genetic expression. Tune in to hear Ali and Becki discuss the imprint of stress on neuroendocrine, cardiovascular and emotional response and how you can stop stress in its tracks using diet, lifestyle and supplement interventions.    In this episode, Ali and Becki unpack common symptoms of HPA-axis imbalance and adrenal dysfunction, from digestive distress to elevated blood sugar and difficulty achieving ketosis to chronic inflammation and beyond. Beyond driving chronic disease expression, stress can halt fertility, hinder weight loss, and even drive increased susceptibility to illness via its impact on the immune system. Learn how to harness your body's stress response using yummy food as medicine interventions like our Maca Walnut Caramels and Sweet Potato Avocado Toast, how supplementation can ebb and flow based on current stressors and why you may want to reconsider your morning coffee!    Also in this episode:  12 Week Food As Medicine Ketosis Program NOW AVAILABLE as an archive for $99!  Adrenal Rehab Program just $99 with code ADRENAL99 Episode 158: How to Rebound your Adrenals Episode 129: Are You Running on Adrenaline  Episode 222: Depression Immune Connection Apply to Become a Naturally Nourished Ambassador Symptoms of HPA Axis ImbalanceNeurohormone Panel Episode 92: DHEA the Fountain of Youth Episode 184: Harnessing the HPA Axis The Immune and Cortisol ConnectionSleep Support The Anti-Anxiety Diet The Anti-Anxiety Diet Cookbook How Stress Impacts Epigenetics and Your DNA Food As Medicine for Rebounding Your AdrenalsVitamin CBio-C Plus Redmond Real Salt use code ALIMILLERRD AdaptogensCalm and Clear Maca Walnut Caramels Wild Foods Cocotropics use code ALIMILLERRD Nori Salmon Roll Ups Sweet Potato Avocado Toast Reduce or Eliminate CoffeeWild Foods Decaf Coffee and Matcha use code ALIMILLERRD Add Santa Cruz Medicinals CBD to coffee if continuing to drink! Use code ALIMILLERRD  Supplements to Support Adrenal Rebound Bundle Stress Manager Bundle Relax and Regulate Calm and Clear Adaptogen Boost Adrenal Support ReferencesPeters A, McEwen BS, Friston K. Uncertainty and stress: why it causes diseases and how it is mastered by the brain. Prog Neurobiol. 2017;156:164-188. doi:10.1016/j.pneurobio.2017.05.004. Leonard BE, Song C. Stress, depression, and the role of cytokines. In: Dantzer R, Wollman EE, Yirmiya R, eds. Cytokines, Stress, and Depression. Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology, Volume 461. Boston, MA: Springer; 1999:251-265. doi:10.1007/978-0-585-37970-8_14. Stankiewicz AM, Swiergiel AH, Lisowski P. Epigenetics of stress adaptations in the brain. Brain Res Bull. 2013;98:76-92. doi:10.1016/j.brainresbull.2013.07.003. Glad CA, Andersson-Assarsson JC, Berglund P, Bergthorsdottir R, Ragnarsson O, Johannsson G. Reduced DNA methylation and psychopathology following endogenous hypercortisolism – a genome-wide study. Sci Rep. 2017;7:44445. doi:10.1038/srep44445. Garland EL, Hanley AW, Baker AK, Howard MO. Biobehavioral mechanisms of mindfulness as a treatment for chronic stress: an RDoC perspective. Chronic Stress. 2017;1:1-14. doi:10.1177/2470547017711912. Creswell JD, Irwin MR, Burklund LJ, et al. Mindfulness-based stress reduction training reduces loneliness and pro-inflammatory gene expression in older adults: a small randomized controlled trial. Brain Behav Immun. 2012;26(7):1095-1101. doi:10.1016/j.bbi.2012.07.006. Slavich GM, Cole SW. The emerging field of human social genomics. Clin Psychol Sci. 2013;1(3):331-348. Mason R. 200 mg of zen: l-theanine boosts alpha waves, promotes alert relaxation. Alternative and Complementary Therapies. 2001;7(2):91-95. Hidese S, Ota M, Wakabayashi C, Noda T, Ozawa H, Okubo T, Kunugi H. Effects of chronic l-theanine administration in patients with major depressive disorder: an open-label study. Acta Neuropsychiatr. 2017 Apr;29(2):72-79. doi: 10.1017/neu.2016.33. Epub 2016 Jul 11. PMID: 27396868. Hidese S, Ogawa S, Ota M, Ishida I, Yasukawa Z, Ozeki M, Kunugi H. Effects of L-Theanine Administration on Stress-Related Symptoms and Cognitive Functions in Healthy Adults: A Randomized Controlled Trial. Nutrients. 2019 Oct 3;11(10):2362. doi: 10.3390/nu11102362. PMID: 31623400; PMCID: PMC6836118. Kahathuduwa CN, Wakefield S, West BD, Blume J, Dassanayake TL, Weerasinghe VS, Mastergeorge A. Effects of L-theanine-caffeine combination on sustained attention and inhibitory control among children with ADHD: a proof-of-concept neuroimaging RCT. Sci Rep. 2020 Aug 4;10(1):13072. doi: 10.1038/s41598-020-70037-7. PMID: 32753637; PMCID: PMC7403383.   Sponsors for this Episode:   This episode is sponsored by Santa Cruz Medicinals, makers of potent and affordable CBD with effective dosing. For more information check out www.scmedicinals.com and use code ALIMILLERRD for 15% off your order.   

Em 2009, O NIMH, National Institute of Mental Health, o instituto Nacional de Saúde Mental dos EUA, lançou o RDoC, abreviação de Research Domains Criteria, como uma maneira de organizar a pesquisa básica em neurociência com a pretensão de fundamentar novo sistema de diagnóstico em psiquiatria. Nesse episódio do PQU Podcast apresento o RDoC para, a seguir, criticá-lo e dar nossa opinião sobre o assunto.

Today we speak with Professor Robert Krueger, Distinguished McKnight University Professor, Hathaway Distinguished Professor, and the Director of Clinical Training in the Department of Psychology at the University of Minnesota. Professor Krueger’s work spans the fields of personality and personality disorders, psychometrics, and genetics, and is centred on developing an empirically-based system of grouping and delineating psychopathology. This is a topic that I think is important to the way we think about mental health and conduct research into it. And I couldn’t hope to have to have a more qualified guest to discuss the topic with. Professor Krueger was a member of the DSM-5 Personality and Personality Disorders Work group, and is an architect of the Hierarchical Taxonomy of Psychopathology a new, dimensional classification system of psychiatric problems.

Sponsors Sentry use code “devchat” for $100 credit Datadog Panel David Kumira Nate Hopkins Andrew Mason Episode Summary Today the panel is talking about documentation. They begin by discussing what documentation is, where it fits within an application, and if the code documents itself. They agree that documentation starts in the comments to explain what you’re doing, but if that’s your exclusive method, then a refactor is in order. They talk about where to start with documentation and different ways they’ve done it.  The panel talks about the importance of documentation, especially for people just joining a team. In addition to documenting the project itself, it is important to document what different libraries do and how to interact with them. They discuss where to put this kind of documentation. They talk about documenting patterns, best practices, and procedures in addition to the ‘how to’ of a project. The conversation turns to style guidelines, what they are, and how to keep them up to date. They talk about what tools are available to generate documentation that are close to the code but outside of it that can help keep documentation up to date. The panel believes that there is a relationship between the size of your team and the necessity to document. Nate introduces the idea found in the article by Tom Preston-Werner that you should think about what you’re going to create in the code, and document it first.   Links RDoc YARD  RuboCop YAML Slim ERB Prettier Pronto Api.rubyonrails.org Swagger Thoughtbot and Thoughtbot Playbook AirBNB Ruby Testdouble HoundCI Okonet API Blueprint Ruby on Rails API documentation guidelines Tom Preston-Werner article Readme Driven Development Follow DevChat on Facebook and Twitter Picks Nate Hopkins: Code Fund Andrew Mason: SpaceVIM RailsDiff Rails Releases David Kimura: Jackery Supercharger Portable

Sponsors Sentry use code “devchat” for $100 credit Datadog Panel David Kumira Nate Hopkins Andrew Mason Episode Summary Today the panel is talking about documentation. They begin by discussing what documentation is, where it fits within an application, and if the code documents itself. They agree that documentation starts in the comments to explain what you’re doing, but if that’s your exclusive method, then a refactor is in order. They talk about where to start with documentation and different ways they’ve done it.  The panel talks about the importance of documentation, especially for people just joining a team. In addition to documenting the project itself, it is important to document what different libraries do and how to interact with them. They discuss where to put this kind of documentation. They talk about documenting patterns, best practices, and procedures in addition to the ‘how to’ of a project. The conversation turns to style guidelines, what they are, and how to keep them up to date. They talk about what tools are available to generate documentation that are close to the code but outside of it that can help keep documentation up to date. The panel believes that there is a relationship between the size of your team and the necessity to document. Nate introduces the idea found in the article by Tom Preston-Werner that you should think about what you’re going to create in the code, and document it first.   Links RDoc YARD  RuboCop YAML Slim ERB Prettier Pronto Api.rubyonrails.org Swagger Thoughtbot and Thoughtbot Playbook AirBNB Ruby Testdouble HoundCI Okonet API Blueprint Ruby on Rails API documentation guidelines Tom Preston-Werner article Readme Driven Development Follow DevChat on Facebook and Twitter Picks Nate Hopkins: Code Fund Andrew Mason: SpaceVIM RailsDiff Rails Releases David Kimura: Jackery Supercharger Portable

Sponsors Sentry use code “devchat” for $100 credit Datadog Panel David Kumira Nate Hopkins Andrew Mason Episode Summary Today the panel is talking about documentation. They begin by discussing what documentation is, where it fits within an application, and if the code documents itself. They agree that documentation starts in the comments to explain what you’re doing, but if that’s your exclusive method, then a refactor is in order. They talk about where to start with documentation and different ways they’ve done it.  The panel talks about the importance of documentation, especially for people just joining a team. In addition to documenting the project itself, it is important to document what different libraries do and how to interact with them. They discuss where to put this kind of documentation. They talk about documenting patterns, best practices, and procedures in addition to the ‘how to’ of a project. The conversation turns to style guidelines, what they are, and how to keep them up to date. They talk about what tools are available to generate documentation that are close to the code but outside of it that can help keep documentation up to date. The panel believes that there is a relationship between the size of your team and the necessity to document. Nate introduces the idea found in the article by Tom Preston-Werner that you should think about what you’re going to create in the code, and document it first.   Links RDoc YARD  RuboCop YAML Slim ERB Prettier Pronto Api.rubyonrails.org Swagger Thoughtbot and Thoughtbot Playbook AirBNB Ruby Testdouble HoundCI Okonet API Blueprint Ruby on Rails API documentation guidelines Tom Preston-Werner article Readme Driven Development Follow DevChat on Facebook and Twitter Picks Nate Hopkins: Code Fund Andrew Mason: SpaceVIM RailsDiff Rails Releases David Kimura: Jackery Supercharger Portable

.NET 5 has been announced and brings a new unified future to the platform. We dig in to Microsoft's plans and speculate about what they might mean for F#. Plus the value of manual testing, Visual Studio Code Remote, and Conway's Game of Life in Rust.

  On MIA Radio this week, MIA’s Jessica Janze interviewed Dr. Jonathan Raskin, in the Department of Psychology at the State University of New York at New Paltz where he serves as department chair and teaches classes in psychology and counselor education. Dr. Raskin’s research is focused on constructivist meaning-based approaches in psychology and counseling. He recently authored a textbook titled Abnormal Psychology: Contrasting Perspectives. Dr. Raskin describes a recent article he wrote (What Might an Alternative to the DSM Suitable for Psychotherapists Look Like?) that highlights psychotherapists’ dissatisfaction with the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fifth edition (DSM-5) and suggests some principles for building alternative models.  What follows is a transcript of the interview, edited for clarity. **************** JJ: Welcome, Jonathan. I'm very excited to have you. Is there anything else you want to add about your background for our readers before we get started? JR: No, not at all. Thank you for inviting me to do this. JJ: Let's get started. What made you interested in working on alternative diagnostic systems for use in psychotherapy? JR: Yeah, that's a good question. I've always been interested in how people make meaning, and diagnostic systems are the way that mental health professionals make meaning of their client's experiences. So to me, all diagnostic systems are meaningful systems for making sense of the problems our clients bring to us. JJ: You take a constructivist approach to thinking about diagnosis. Can you break down what that means for us and how it applies to this issue of diagnosis?  JR: Many theories fall under the banner of constructivism, but broadly speaking, constructivism focuses on how people both individually and in conjunction with one another (and in more social kinds of configurations) construct understandings of themselves and the world. Then they use those constructions to guide their lives. To me, constructivism seems like an excellent theoretical approach to use in understanding diagnosis because each diagnostic approach can be viewed as a constructed meaning system for understanding and conceptualizing client concerns. JJ: Several alternative diagnostic systems have been promoted in recent years, including HiTop, the Power Threat Meaning framework, RDoC, and the PDM. What are your thoughts on these alternatives? JR: I think they're all interesting in their own ways. Let me talk about a few of them. I'll start with HiTop. That's the hierarchical taxonomy of psychopathology. It's a dimensional approach that tries to address the problem of comorbidity that afflicts DSM categories. Comorbidity is a confusing issue for people. When disorders are comorbid, they're diagnosed at the same time. One of the problems is that a lot of the DSM diagnoses are comorbid with one another. If you have too much comorbidity, the question that arises is, are the categories that we've constructed distinct from one another? HiTop thinks that comorbidity should be embraced instead of rejected. They say, “Yes, these DSM categories cluster together, we can group each of them under these broader spectrums.” The HiTop system uses six spectrum dimensions. Ultimately, the people who created HiTop feel that DSM disorders might be discardable, but for the time being, we can keep them. They say that there are really these co-morbid overlapping categories underneath these higher levels, six distinct spectra. HiTop sees this as a simpler approach because you can divide people's problems into how they score along these six different spectrum dimensions. It's still very early going. I think it has a lot in common with the big five personality research. If you like those, you'll like HiTop. If you don't like those, you might not be a fan of HiTop. Let me talk a little bit about RDoC. RDoC is the research domain criteria system. It's a research initiative at the moment. It's not a diagnostic system yet. They're trying to build a diagnostic system from the ground up, and they're doing that by trying to identify the ways that the brain is designed to function. Then, and only then, they will identify ways that it malfunctions. And so the categories that they create will be based on their identifying and diagnosing these specific malfunctions. The people involved in RDoC say, “We're doing this in the right way, whereas the DSM does it backward.” DSM starts with categories and then researchers race around trying to find out what the biological correlates of those categories are. RDoC says, “Let's understand the brain and how it works and then build categories based on observable differences between healthy and unhealthy brains.” It's a very medical model kind of approach. And if you like that, you'll like RDoC. If you don't like the medical model, you won't. What's really fascinating about [RDOC] is the idea that it wants to build the system from the ground up. It is not yet a diagnostic system; it's a research initiative. We don't have the ability to identify any kind of presenting problems based exclusively on these kinds of biological biomarkers just yet. Then there's the Power Threat Meaning framework (PTM), which is going 180 degrees in the other direction. PTM shifts the focus. It moves away from the medical model. It actually doesn't consider itself a diagnostic system. It rejects the idea of medical model diagnostic systems. It says that we need to depathologize people's problems by focusing on what the PTM identifies as the actual causes. It says that economic and social injustices are the root causes of emotional distress. The origins of distress lie outside the person. RDOC looks inside the person, and I think the DSM, in many respects, implies that it's inside the person. PTM emphasizes what has happened to people on a socio-cultural level and then how they've responded to it. It's a totally different approach. It's a non-diagnostic approach. Another approach is the Psychodynamic Diagnostic Manual (PDM). From its name, you can tell it’s an explicitly psychodynamic diagnostic manual that diagnoses problems through the lens of psychodynamic theory. So whereas the DSM has traditionally been atheoretical, in the sense that it's a descriptive, diagnostic manual describing problems, but it doesn't take a stance on what causes them, the PDM roots its approach explicitly in psychodynamic theory. All of these approaches are really interesting in their own way. The question is whether or not they'll catch on. JJ: You don't think that there is one particular diagnostic system that our society should switch to, is that correct? JR: I view diagnostic systems as tools. Like hammers, they're really helpful instruments. However, depending on the task I’m up to, I might be better off with a wrench or a pair of pliers or some other tool instead. So, I find it helpful to use the tools metaphor when considering diagnostic systems. One might find a given diagnostic system useful, or not, depending on the situation. Of course, it's always important to remember that diagnostic systems provide maps that can guide us, but we have to be careful not to mistake the map for the territory. I think the biggest barrier to developing viable alternatives to the DSM and the ICD is that these approaches cross theoretical perspectives by being mainly descriptive. But, when it comes to how a diagnostic system informs treatment, descriptive approaches, in many ways are lacking. That is, they don't take any stance on how to best approach the problems they identify or describe. So, their wanting to script nature makes DSM and ICD easy for everyone to adopt regardless of the theoretical viewpoint. But any theoretically driven system, things like the PDM or the power threat meaning framework or RDoC even, those systems in many ways might struggle to gain mass acceptance because their theoretical commitments will turn people off. Somebody who doesn't like a medical model brain approach won't use RDoC. Somebody who's really opposed to psychodynamic theories, or just not interested in them, won't use PDM. Somebody who doesn't take a social justice orientation to problems might not like PTM. By being theoretically well developed and informative about how to conceptualize and approach client problems, these alternative diagnostic systems ironically make themselves less broadly appealing. That can be a challenge for them. But, if they are tools you don't have to stick with just one, you could jump around from one system to the next depending on what you're up to that day. JJ: What about insurance companies? What do you think an alternative to the DSM system that could be used for insurance purposes would look like? JR: I’m not sure. It’s been suggested by a lot of people that a very practical thing we can do is use the DSM-5 V codes (which list circumstances or experiences, such as "Homelessness," "Poverty," and "High Expressed Emotion Level Within Family") because that might let us identify presenting problems while being less medicalizing and stigmatizing. Practically, those codes already exist, but we would need insurers to cover them for clinicians to begin using them. One of the reasons they don't get used is that insurance companies don't cover the code diagnosis. As I was describing a minute ago, I think theoretically coherent systems might prove to be more helpful to clinicians in a practical, everyday manner but they're less likely to be appreciated and used across clinicians and different theoretical orientations. That's the challenge. Being theoretically consistent and pure and developing something that a smaller group of people might like to use versus having something that would kind of cut across all theoretical orientations. The latter might be more descriptive, but potentially not the most clinically useful, but would help grease the wheels of insurance. JJ: Can you talk more about the importance of including service users and people with lived experiences in the development of any future alternatives? JR: I think it's very important to listen to service users because they're the ones impacted by whatever diagnostic system we develop and use. So we really need their feedback, especially if we want to avoid inadvertently harming them. JJ: How do you think diagnoses should be approached in therapy? How do you recommend clinicians approach these topics with people who come to see them?  JR: I think we often draw sort of an artificial line between diagnosis and treatment. George Kelly was the psychologist who developed personal construct theory, and he used to say that therapists have to continually revise their understandings of clients because clients are always in process and forever changing. That's why Kelly used the term transitive diagnosis. He said diagnoses are transitive because they are continually evolving. So given that, regardless of the diagnostic approach that a therapist takes, it seems to me very important for the therapist to not reify the diagnosis made because I think doing so locks the client in place in a way that can be highly limiting. That would be true across different diagnostic systems for me. Whichever system somebody’s adopting, you have to be careful not to be too literal or reifying about that system. So to me, thinking of diagnoses as meaningful constructions, as created understandings that might -for the time being- inform what we're doing, is terrific. But when we shift to seeing them as essential, unchangeable things we can lock ourselves in, and we can actually also unintentionally harm the people we're working with. JJ: More of a living system. JR: As Kelly said, you have to keep up with your clients. They're always in process, and you better keep up with them because if you're still using last week's a conceptualization and understanding, well, they may have moved on. JJ: Is there anything else that you wanted to add or talk to us about before we wrap up? JR: No, I mean just that I think this is a growing area that people are expressing interest in. I sense that a lot of clinicians don't really know much about different alternatives beyond the DSM and the ICD. And so, one of the things that I've been interested in recently is just helping the field have more knowledge; helping the clinicians out in the field become aware of approaches that they may not know much about. My sense is that clinicians are hungry for alternatives, but they don't necessarily know what the alternatives are. And then, at the same time, they also feel trapped in the sense that in order for them to get paid, they need to use the DSM. But it doesn’t mean, even if the issues of reimbursement haven't been resolved for other systems, it doesn't mean that they can't learn about and begin using these other systems in addition. It doesn't have to be an either-or. So my goal is to learn more about these diagnostic alternatives myself and then to help others out in the field learn about them as well. JJ: I think that's really great. Just talking about alternatives and getting the information out even if we do not necessarily subscribe to them or use them.  JR: Having an open discussion and dialogue about them is important, and I think people are very quick to make judgments about which approach they like or dislike. But I think if you want to develop alternatives, you have to be open-minded and be willing to talk with people who might be developing alternatives that are very different from what you yourself might develop and appreciate that each alternative may have advantages to it as well as disadvantages. JJ: I'm excited to see these theories evolve and to see how the field continues this conversation and I'm glad that you're a part of that. Your textbook compares and lays out the alternative diagnostic frameworks, right? JR: Yea, one of the things that I was very excited to do in the book was to present alternative perspectives across both diagnosis and treatment interventions. In the diagnosis chapter, I talk about RDoC; I talk about HiTop; I talk about the PTM framework; Because I think it's essential for students in the field to learn about these approaches. If we want to disseminate information about them, we have to cover them in the places where students are learning about them. I also spend a lot of time on DSM and ICD because those are the most influential approaches today. So all of them get covered, and they get covered as perspectives. Each one is a diagnostic perspective that a person might adopt depending on what the goal is in the given moment. JJ: Well I have to say, I really appreciate you doing this work. I appreciate your perspectives. I appreciate you coming on today and sharing this information with our readers. I do agree with you. I think it's so important to get this information out to people. Thank you so much for talking to us, and I look forward to hearing more about your work.  JR: Thank you very much. © Mad in America 2019

How do we arrive at a certain diagnosis? What are the underlying molecular, neurological, and behavioral components of a given disorder? Well, Dr. Jenni Pacheco and her RDoC team at the NIH are working hard to answer these questions. Join us today as she talks all about RDoC and their highly nuanced, research-driven model of psychological functioning! Cool Things Mentioned ... Read More The post TTP #70: Dr. Jenni Pacheco – RDoC: Research to Guide Diagnosis appeared first on The Testing Psychologist.

Sarah Morris Explains RDoc and the US National Institute of Mental Health Health approach to thinking about research

Our latest episode features guests from four different departments at Johns Hopkins School of Public Health who trace public health news stories from their scientific journal source to their flashy headlines in popular news media sources. An excellent discussion ensues on how the science communication went awry and what will clue readers in to false information. We finish the episode with HOTSPOT, when guests have to spontaneously define in layman’s terms an important public health term. Guests include PhD students: Ben Blumberg from Molecular Microbiology and Immunology, Beth Linas from Epidemiology, Laysha Oslow from Mental Health, and Eric Simko from Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. Part 4 of 5: Laysha talks about the National Institute of Mental Health's (NIMH) new policy on RDoC, how that has ignited public interested in the validity of psychiatric diagnoses in the DSM, and the research base for both of the things (both very limited)--and how that relates to access to care and civil rights/public perceptions of "mental illness."