Podcasts about sarah you

DoorGrow has been helping property management business owners transform and grow their businesses for over a decade… what's changed? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull explore some of the things DoorGrow has been working on in the last 5 years to innovate the property management industry. You'll Learn [01:24] Why DoorGrow Continues to Innovate [06:94] Helping Property Managers Avoid Common Mistakes [13:23] Changes and Improvements to the DoorGrow Mastermind [21:52] Innovative New Sales Strategies Quotables “A lot of people think, ‘I just need more leads. I just need to turn that on.' And they ignore this hose that has six major leaks in it.” “If you ask them the right questions, people will basically sell themselves.” “It's like when you go to a buffet, you're not going to eat everything at the buffet… You only want to eat the things that you want right now.” “You are the sum of the five property management business owners that you're the most connected to.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Do you have any idea how powerful it is to be connected to a coach? 24 hours a day? Like there is no time in the world that you cannot message us. [00:00:08] Jason: All right. We are Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive coaching and consulting firm for long-term residential property management entrepreneurs. For over a decade and a half, we have brought innovative strategies and optimization to the property management industry. At DoorGrow, we have spoken to thousands of property management business owners, coached, consulted and cleaned up hundreds of businesses, helping them add doors, improved pricing, increase profit, simplify operations, and build and replace teams. We are like Bar Rescue for property managers. In fact, we have cleaned up and rebranded over 300 businesses and we run the leading property management mastermind for the industry with more video testimonials and reviews than any other coach or consultant in the industry.  [00:00:59] Jason: At DoorGrow, we believe that good property managers can change the world, and that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.  [00:01:09] Jason: At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners and their businesses. [00:01:13] Jason: We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bs, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:24] Jason: Alright, so today, what are we talking about, Sarah?  [00:01:28] Jason: We're talking about what's new.  [00:01:30] Jason: So we've helped a lot of clients in the past, and if we've helped you three, five, maybe 10 years ago, there's been a lot that's changed at DoorGrow because we innovate and make changes pretty quickly, right? [00:01:44] Jason: And we've got systems for innovation in our business. And so, I think this is why we have the most comprehensive program in the industry and why nobody else can keep up with our pace and our level of creating and innovating and adding new stuff. And so a lot of you maybe have listened to this podcast a bit, maybe a while, maybe you're past clients. Maybe you've never worked with DoorGrow, but I'm going to talk about some of the stuff we've implemented since somebody was maybe a client in our older programs, like our seed program, or maybe did some initial marketing stuff with us back in the day. And so we're going to chat a little bit about what's new since then. [00:02:24] Jason: And so if you are a past client, this will be a great episode for you to catch up on what is new at DoorGrow. And if you'd like us to go deeper, I have a 37 minute video I recorded with slides on this subject going into a little bit more detail, but we're going to skim through some of this and help you understand there's a lot of innovation. [00:02:44] Jason: So if you had some connection with DoorGrow in the past, since then, we have become the world leaders at growing and scaling property management companies. And especially in the long term residential space. We've become the world leaders of property management branding. Like I said in the intro, we've rebranded over 300 companies. [00:03:04] Jason: We have launched hundreds of websites, more than we've done rebrands. And so hundreds and hundreds of websites. And we're still the leader in building responsive mobile friendly WordPress sites for property managers, which is the world's leading content management system. And if you're past client, you might be due for a website refresh. [00:03:24] Jason: We have over 70 different designs you can choose from, and they are clean designs, they're set up so that these sites, we call them seed sites, they're optimized for conversions, they're optimized to build trust. And so if it's, if you have an old website from us, you might be due for a refresh and we can certainly help you with that. [00:03:46] Jason: And past clients, we'll give you a discounted rate. So we're really great at doing websites for those that aren't a past client. And so, reach out, we can help you with that. And we include websites for free in some of our programs. You still have to pay like the support costs monthly, but the design piece, which normally is thousands of dollars to get a site built, we cover and take care of that. [00:04:09] Jason: That's included in our mastermind program. Related to that, we've also launched the world's leading mastermind for long-term residential property managers called The DoorGrow Mastermind. So, do you want to talk about this one?  [00:04:22] Sarah: Sure. I guess. Okay. All right. So one of the things that we had launched, what, like two years ago now maybe? [00:04:29] Sarah: Yeah. Is what we call the DoorGrow code. So what we've done is we've just seen over the many years and over Jason talking with thousands of property managers. He's just amassed a whole bunch of data. And after that happens, then you start to kind of see some patterns. So. What we did is we created this whole map that lays out stage by stage and step by step. [00:04:56] Sarah: The various different ,I'm going to call them stages, of a property management business. So all the way from, "I'm brand new, I have no doors yet, not quite sure I really want to get started, but I, you know, I don't actually have any clients yet" to, "well, now I have my first client and then I'm growing up to, you know, 50, a hundred, 200, 300, 400 doors, all the way up to a thousand plus. So we've created this whole roadmap, and then if you're in the DoorGrow Mastermind, we also have created some corresponding belt levels. So we kind of like a martial arts system, we've created different color coded built levels that corresponds to both your door count and your income because both things are important. [00:05:43] Sarah: And what are the things that you need to do at each different stage in order to progress to the next level in your business? Meaning you are making more revenue, you're adding more doors, and hopefully you're stepping back a bit from the things that you're not loving in the business.  [00:06:02] Jason: Yeah, and we call that the DoorGrow code, like we've cracked the code on growth and this is based on talking to thousands of property managers. [00:06:09] Jason: We started to notice a pattern. So if you'd like a copy of the DoorGrow code and see where you're at and stuck, reach out to us. We'd be happy to send you a copy. Just shoot us a DM on any social platform. Say, Hey. Just send us the word code and we'll, we can send you information about the DoorGrow code and that'll help you get some clarity on where you're at. [00:06:28] Jason: So that's been a game changer. We used to have this old program called the Seed Program, where we would kind of clean up their business and get it ready for growth. And it used to be a six month program. Some clients would take a year to do it. We've replaced that with a 90 day Rapid Revamp program, and so our Rapid Revamp program is even faster and this is where usually I use a diagram of a hose and there's like a faucet to turn on the hose. And that faucet Or spigot, it usually says lead generation. A lot of people think, "I just need more leads. I just need to turn that on." And they ignore this hose that has six major leaks in it, and so we've identified six major leaks, and so as part of this Rapid Revamp. [00:07:09] Jason: We spend like three months with clients, usually our newer clients that come on board, we do this first. This is like sharpening the ax before we go try to chop down trees, you know, try to do the work to grow the business, and we're optimizing it for growth and we're shoring up those six major leaks. [00:07:24] Jason: And the big leaks are branding, reviews, website, pricing, trust, and sales, your pitch. So we call it positioning, perception, presence, pricing, purpose, and pitch. And if we can get those things really well dialed in, we find that companies without even changing their lead gen sources, can double the amount of deals that they're getting on right now. [00:07:43] Jason: So if you feel like it's been hard and you can't see why, these are usually six major blind spots. And this is why it's been so hard. If we can get this stuff dialed in, even without changing any of the lead sources, however you're getting business right now, you could potentially double the amount of business you're getting on just by getting these leaks shored up. [00:08:02] Jason: And do you want to talk about pricing?  [00:08:04] Sarah: Okay. Pricing is actually one of the things that we cover now in the Rapid Revamp. And what we've noticed is even companies that grow to a considerable door count, most of the times their pricing is still just not great. I think we have yet to see a business that their pricing is already optimized, so a lot of times, they're leaving money on the table, which is so awful. Because you're working so hard for your money. Yeah. And you're just not making enough of it. And there's some statistics and data from NARPM. If you ever look at the NARPM data and you look at what like the average property manager's profit margin is, it's pretty abysmal. Yeah. And this is one of the reasons why. [00:08:48] Sarah: It's not the like the only reason, but it's one of the big ones. It's one of the factors. Pricing. So what we've figured out is, hey, a lot of property managers, they just kind of go with the flow. They do what the competition in their market is doing. You know, they just kind of, sometimes they wing it and they go, I think this is good. [00:09:07] Sarah: And they put something together. And when we come in and take a look at it, we can find thousands of dollars more per year. So like Anthony O'Reilly Brookes just said a couple weeks ago on the pricing, he's like, oh, if I just do this one change, I don't even have to do all of these changes. He is like, if I just do this one change, then I can make myself an extra $26,000 a year. [00:09:28] Jason: Yeah. This is one of our clients. It was great. So yeah, so we had an old training. We were the first to roll out kind of the three tier sort of pricing model to bring this to the industry. The basic idea was based around the Goldilocks principle and how it's easier to sell if you have three different types of pricing based on three types of buyers. Pricing secrets, we've rolled out 2.0. [00:09:51] Jason: So some of our past clients, you've gone through our original pricing secrets. You've have maybe a three tier model or maybe at least three plans sort of. Some of you maybe have lease only as one of them, which we don't recommend anymore. But now we've got this three tier hybrid pricing model and I got some of the idea from Scott Brady, really brilliant property manager. [00:10:14] Jason: He was using a hybrid model for pricing out associations. I then put my own spin on it based on what I know about pricing psychology. And I believe this is the most ethical and easiest to sell model. And it allows you to be unique and sell against all your competitors and to kind of poison the well against flat fee companies or percentage based companies. [00:10:36] Jason: And so it gives you competitive advantage and it helps you close more deals more easily at higher price points. So we've got that. The next thing we've made some big advancements into sales. So some of you went through my old Sales secrets training and and this was old school sales, like it was based on NLP neurolinguistic programming. [00:10:57] Jason: It was based on different formulas of communication that some would maybe calm, manipulative, but the idea, and I would present at the beginning, like, don't be evil. You know, like, these are powerful techniques. Well, a lot of the old school sort of sales tactics of high pressure closing and a lot of training you get from most salespeople and people that are known for sales really isn't working in the last three to five years. [00:11:23] Jason: And so there's kind of this new model of selling that needs to be done. And because we're in this post trust era, like everybody's been kind of exposed and woken up a little bit that everything's kind of fake. The news is fake. The pandemic's fake. Voting's fake. Like, like nobody knows who to trust or what to trust because we realize we've just been gaslighted and lied to by everything. Especially the government and powers that are over us. And so nobody trusts anything anymore. And so there's a new model of selling that allows you to create trust that we've learned and rolled out, and we get into some cool tactics like the three dominoes to creating the ultimate pitch. [00:12:05] Jason: I have a model of four phase selling, which is a simple framework for understanding four simple phrases to take people through when having a conversation. And then our Golden Bridge formula, which is even if you learn nothing else, is the ultimate sales hack to just creating authentic trust and connection with somebody, which is the crux of sales. [00:12:25] Jason: You know? And so this is high trust selling, figuring out your personal golden bridge I've used for years in my own sales and in getting on clients, and it's why people trust me so much. And so we'll help you figure out your own. And then we get into this whole new model of selling, which has multiple phases that helps people get their own clarity. [00:12:44] Jason: And what I've realized is people don't understand their problems and what they need, and until you ask them the right questions, and so if you ask them the right questions, people will basically sell themselves. You don't have to push, be pushy In sales, this is more about being empathetic, curious, asking questions, and it feels very good to be sold to in this way, if you could even call it selling. It's really coaching. And so I'm teaching you how to do that as well in this training. And then we've also added recently offer documents, sales trackers, like some really cool stuff that we use at DoorGrow to close deals and that are helping our clients increase their close rates significantly. [00:13:23] Jason: So we made a lot of improvements to our coaching program. Maybe you could talk about some of those things.  [00:13:30] Sarah: Yeah. So there... man, I feel like since I stepped into DoorGrow, we changed everything, so. [00:13:37] Jason: We did.  [00:13:38] Sarah: Which is great because it's like there's a lot of things that we wanted to improve, and there were a lot of things that we wanted to add. So I think one of the best things for me anyway, is I really love the Jumpstart events. So if you join the DoorGrow Mastermind as a newer client, then part of your launch package is going to be an in-person deep dive into your business with Jason and myself, you spend the whole day together with a small group of property managers. [00:14:08] Sarah: We keep it small because I cannot do a deep dive with like 10 people or 20 people. So we do a very small group. Yeah, and we really get into the weeds. We get into the nitty gritty. You walk away with a very clear action plan. You know exactly what to be doing, and you just get so much clarity and connection with other property managers that are attending that event, which is really great because after the event, those people, they stick together for a while, you know? [00:14:36] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:14:36] Jason: Create some nice connections. We rolled out the jumpstart sessions because we started to notice a pattern that when clients would meet us in person or come to DoorGrow Live or conference or anything in person, they would suddenly realize psychologically we were real people. There's just something psychologically about video Zoom calls video trainings in DoorGrow Academy. [00:15:00] Jason: That's not real to our brain. And so I call it the real bubble. And we've realized if we can pop that real bubble from the beginning, clients' perception of and recognizing that we're real people, then that translates into the things that we teach are real. And the things and the results clients are getting are real. [00:15:18] Jason: And so they start to get way better results. And so we want to give people that experience from the beginning, and we've got a much better outcome from all of our clients by getting them to do these in-person things towards the beginning of them joining DoorGrow's Mastermind and they're getting way better results. [00:15:36] Jason: They recognize that this is all real stuff and so they absorb the content in all the information in a completely different way, which is really powerful, so. [00:15:45] Sarah: And I would also say in addition to that too, though, if you had worked with us prior to what, four years ago? I would say probably four is the right answer. [00:15:56] Sarah: If you worked with us anytime before that, we recognized onboarding was very hectic and it was, oh man, it's really overwhelming. Everybody was like, "oh my God, there's so much information and I don't know what to do," and then they try to take it all in and they're overwhelmed and they're focusing on the wrong things. [00:16:13] Sarah: And then they have a bunch of questions and they're trying to like, jump on the calls to get their questions answered. So we did a few things. And the best thing that we have rolled out is. We have a really solid, streamlined onboarding process now.  [00:16:29] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:29] Sarah: So we take you through a very proven like we have a whole course on DoorGrow Academy on onboarding to make sure that you get into all of the tools. You have access to everything. You know how to use it. Because just because you have it, doesn't mean you know how to use it. Yeah. And then that you're connected with our team. Because there are still some times that people are like, "oh, I didn't even know I could talk to Madi. Oh, I didn't know I could talk to Giselle." Or like, "oh, I didn't realize I could do that." Yeah, you absolutely can. We have a whole team to support you. So we make sure that you're connected with the right tools. We make sure you're connected with the team. You get on like a couple of 15 minute coaching calls with our like onboarding specialist right at the beginning just to make sure, like we're going to walk you through everything. We're going to check everything, we're going to explain everything to you, make sure you're on telegram, make sure you're connected to our entire team. And then they get a brand new thing that we had rolled out in addition that we added to onboarding is our client workbooks. [00:17:26] Sarah: So one of the things that everybody says is, "oh my God, it's like drinking out of a fire hose." I hear this almost from every client.  [00:17:33] Jason: Yeah. That analogy comes up all the time. It's like drinking out of a fire hose. Like they say it all the time. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, oh my God, there's so much, there's so much available. [00:17:41] Jason: Yes, there is. So we help them get focused.  [00:17:43] Sarah: And that's great. But it's like when you go to a buffet you're not going to eat everything at the buffet.  [00:17:48] Jason: No.  [00:17:49] Sarah: You only want to eat the things that you want right now. Yeah. And maybe you're like, oh, I'm saving room for dessert later. I know. Like, I'm going to pace myself because I want dessert later for sure. And that's great because you're not ready for dessert now. So it's not that you skip it, it's just that you don't need it right now. So we have a much better system of figuring out what do you need right now. So it's a lot more personalized, it's a lot more customized and then you're able to go through a proven roadmap that's for your business and for your stage. And a lot of that lives in our client workbooks. And that way there's like one place to refer to, you know your belt level requirements. You know your Rapid Revamp to do items. You know what the homework is that you're supposed to be doing. Your sales tracker lives in there and all of your action items and to do items, they're all in there, so you know exactly what to be doing and there's one document to refer to that makes it really easy. [00:18:45] Jason: And when you talk to a coach, we'll map out exactly what you know, we want to figure out your goals, and then we map out tactical items for you to check off and to work on specific to you. And so, even though we've got some different, you know, paths and formulas and classes, we always tailor this to our clients. [00:19:02] Jason: And the client workbook really helps that communication. It literally gets us on the same page, right? Yeah. Together. So, we've added client Success manager, my daughter Madi, who manages all her social media, does all our video editing. She is now also our client success manager, and she's amazing at that. [00:19:17] Jason: So we've had a couple different client success managers over the years and that's really helped improve the connection clients have, the clarity they have, and we also have giselle on our team who can find anything for clients and help them find things.  [00:19:32] Sarah: Giselle is like ai, but she's not. [00:19:34] Jason: Right. Yeah.  [00:19:36] Sarah: She's the best human AI I've ever seen.  [00:19:40] Jason: Yeah. So, and so we've got really good support systems for our clients. We also now leverage Telegram Messenger. We used to use Voxer. Some of my clients in the past, maybe remember Voxer. So I think we've upgraded by using Telegram Messenger for sure. [00:19:54] Jason: And it's a lot more reliable. And so we coach clients directly through it. Walkie-talkie style. They can answer questions anytime. So that's been really effective.  [00:20:01] Sarah: And I mean, that's super powerful too because, yeah, this is the one thing that I like, especially in the Rapid Revamp. I harp on this a lot. [00:20:08] Sarah: Do you have any idea how powerful it is to be connected to a coach? 24 hours a day? Like there is no time in the world that you cannot message us. Yeah. So you can message Jason, you can message me, you can message our whole client success team, including Madi. You can message us any time at all. [00:20:25] Sarah: It doesn't mean we're going to get back to you immediately. Sure. But we get back to you pretty darn quickly. Yeah. And out of all the communication channels, those are the ones that we check the most. So like Jason will never check his email. So if you ever email Jason, it's a black hole, don't do it. [00:20:41] Jason: Someone else will read it. Eventually  [00:20:42] Sarah: But Telegram, he checks Telegram a lot. And I check Telegram. I mean, I message people sometimes back at midnight, like if they send me a message at 11 and I'm still awake at midnight, I'm like, okay. I'm like messaging you in bed. I have no problem doing that. [00:20:55] Sarah: But you're connected very easily and very quickly to a coach who can rapidly answer questions. And it's not, you know, it's not like this cumbersome thing where you're like, "oh, I have to get on a call and figure out a time that works for me." Right? Like it works for you all the time because you just send a message. [00:21:12] Jason: Yeah. So that's been real effective. We've got three different weekly group coaching calls. We've got a Rapid Revamp class where we're optimizing the product of the business. And getting the business dialed up and ready for growth. Then we've got our Growth Accelerator class that we do. So the Rapid Revamp's on Tuesdays. Growth Accelerator is on Wednesdays, and this is where we focus on just adding doors. [00:21:34] Jason: We work with BDMs, we work with salespeople, we work with business owners to figure out how to grow and working on different growth engines. And then we have our Friday class, which is our operations class where we get into creating scalable operations so that you can handle high paced growth without the business falling apart. [00:21:52] Jason: So, we've also added in our Growth Accelerator, we've added a bunch of different growth engines. These are different sort of vehicles or engines you can build in your business that feed you business organically without having to pay for marketing or advertising. And it's actually more effective than any cold lead advertising we've seen to date. [00:22:12] Jason: We just brought on a client with 6,000 doors that was spending 30 grand a month. Trying to do internet marketing and digital marketing to grow their business, and they reached out to us for help. And so we're giving them a better strategy of leveraging business development managers in each market doing organic outreach, and they're going to grow way faster. [00:22:29] Jason: And it's going to cost them way less money. Way less. Right.  [00:22:32] Sarah: And for those of you that are doing paid marketing, do you think you can outspend someone who's spending $30,000 a month?  [00:22:38] Jason: Right. And the reality is there's very little search volume of people looking for property management on the internet, and that's what all of the companies are competing in that red bloody water. And there's tons of blue ocean of people. 60% are self-managing. There's no scarcity. And so we help you get these different growth engines dialed in and we've got great tactics like you know, product research interviews, realtor intros, which is 10 times more effective than realtor referrals, which a lot of you try and it doesn't work super well. [00:23:05] Jason: We've got you know, some clever tactics of going direct to investors. We also launched this ROI calculator that's pretty brilliant. That goes along with our realtor intro strategy. We've got the neighbor strategy. Which helps you get business from neighboring property management companies, which is really brilliant. [00:23:23] Jason: We've got warm review outreach, which will help you get better reviews, help you increase the lifetime value of your tenants and owners, and help you get more referrals from your existing clients. And so that can be real effective. Any one of these has helped our clients at a hundred to 200 doors a year organically, and you can install as many of these as you want. [00:23:42] Jason: We've got outbound partner prospecting where you can go after lenders, insurance agents, attorneys, vendors, and another example is groups like one to many sales and how to, instead of walking away from a group interaction where you hope maybe you'll get a lead or a referral or something, you walk away with scheduled, booked calls and can make money. [00:24:04] Jason: So, cool. So those are some of our growth engines. Let's talk about, this is new.  [00:24:09] Sarah: I love talking about DoorGrow Hiring. We could do a whole podcast episode on just that alone. Sure. And this is not specific just to property management businesses, this is businesses in general. Yeah. They. Really struggle with hiring. [00:24:22] Sarah: It's hard. It is so challenging and what usually happens is you wait until you're in pain and then you hurry up to hire and then your situation gets worse than it was before. And then, now you've got, you know, some scar tissue and now you're like, oh, I don't think I want to hire. Or like, ah, there's no good people out there. [00:24:44] Sarah: Like, I've been burned before. And it's because people approach everything pretty much the wrong way. Yeah. So we built this into entire system that's called DoorGrow Hiring. And we'll take people through it to make sure that you've got everything in line that you need ahead of time. So that you can actually be prepared to find the right person. We also give you proven processes to help you find the right people. Including things like your R Docs, which is just a fancy word for job description, your company culture. We build out your application, we put it on your website. We give you like the job postings. We give you an interview guide. [00:25:20] Sarah: I literally give you the words to use in an interview, these are the questions you're going to ask. This is the order you're going to ask them in, and these are the words you're going to say, and then that is it. We take you like step by step. So we created this whole system in order to help people find really great team members instead of playing Russian roulette with hiring, which is really dangerous. [00:25:45] Jason: Yeah. So, and the whole crux of it is focused on the three fits, which is finding the right culture fit, skill fit, and personality fit for the role. You cannot create those in people, you have to find them. And finding all three can be challenging and our whole hiring system's built around that. So, just three more things real quick. [00:26:03] Jason: One, we've focused on the five levels of exit. So a lot of property managers can't figure out how to exit the frontline work of the business, so they end up then selling the business because they're miserable in it. So we help you figure out how to get to there's five levels. We help you figure out how to get to somewhere in the middle where you're happiest and you're out of that frontline work without going all the way to exit five and selling the business and having a lack of purpose or you know, not having the business anymore and then trying to start something new and getting to the same level of problem in the video game and you keep losing against the same boss and whatever. So we help you figure out how to beat that boss in the video game. We also launched DoorGrow OS, which is a really robust planning system. [00:26:45] Jason: We have found some fundamental flaws in other planning systems, which are a step up. Just having one like EOS, Traction, Rocket Fuel, some of this kind of stuff. We've built something we believe is innovative and far better after working with some of the most brilliant operations people. And, probably in the world. [00:27:01] Jason: And so this is DoorGrow OS and this is our secret sauce at DoorGrow. And so we're helping people roll out and implement a planning cadence and system and get operators in place that can run this for you, the visionary entrepreneurs. So that your business runs smoothly and you can handle high-paced growth and have goals and get your team focused on the strategic side of the business rather than just being micromanaged through tactical work and task management. [00:27:29] Jason: And then this is the last item you want to talk about this one? [00:27:33] Sarah: Well, we've got our DoorGrow Live conference coming up, so I think you did the first one in like 2018. Then we took a break and then we brought them back. So yeah. We run our DoorGrow Live conference once a year, this is our big event, we open it up to clients, past clients, people who have never even worked with us. People who are in and around the property management industry, including real estate. Because if you're in real estate, you should seriously consider getting into property management, or at least knowing a property manager. And if you need to know a great property manager, there's going to be a lot of them in the room. [00:28:06] Sarah: So, the DoorGrow Live, it's a really powerful event. We bring in some fantastic speakers. It's always very motivational and very tactical, so no matter what it is that you're looking for from the event, you will find it there. And it's a great place to connect and meet people who are doing the same thing that you are doing. [00:28:28] Sarah: Because that is just such a powerful tool to be able to have a network of people that you can rely on and that understand you and understand what exactly you're trying to do and what you're going through.  [00:28:40] Jason: Yeah, and we have some amazing vendors that sponsor the event. One of them told me this is the only event that they now do of all the property management events, because it's their favorite. It's the best one. Even though it's small compared to many. They love this one and they get so much value out of learning and being at it as an entrepreneur. And so that says a lot. And so, these are different property managers. [00:29:03] Jason: These are growth-minded people that invest in their businesses. These are not the people that are just trying to have a shitty vacation and escape and go to a bar. These are people that are focused on growth. And so if you want to be around the best in the industry DoorGrow Live is the place to be around the best, and you are the sum of the five property management business owners that you're the most connected to. [00:29:23] Jason: You know, birds of a feather flock together. So if you're growth minded, you want to be at this event. So, and by the time this airs, for a lot of you, if you're listening to this on Spotify or somewhere else. You may have already missed this year, so, but get your tickets and we've got some cool bonuses that we're giving to people if they attend. [00:29:40] Jason: So. Cool. That's it for today. If you have felt stuck or stagnant or want to take your property management business the next level, reach out to us at DoorGrow.com. Also join our free Facebook community just for property management business owners. We reject 70% of applicants doorgrowclub.com. And if you found this even a little bit helpful, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. [00:30:02] Jason: We'd really appreciate it. Until next time, remember, the slowest path to growth is to do it alone, so let's grow together. Bye everyone.

Magical Thinking is often misunderstood.Jason Segel plays a psychologist in the Apple + TV show, “Shrinking.” He is talking to a patient with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.He looks at her. “This again?” She is holding her breath. He says, “You looked at the clock and now you have to hold your breath until the minute changes?” Holding her breath, she nods her head. He says, “Look, I know you feel like this compulsion is gonna help keep bad things from happening, but that's called magical thinking.”Medical News Today says, “Magical thinking means that a person believes their thoughts, feelings, or rituals can influence events in the material world, either intentionally or unintentionally.”But the summary of that article says, “This type of thinking does not always cause harm. In fact, it can have benefits.”The benefits of magical thinking are – according to me – exquisite.Magical thinking is the least destructive way to escape reality. When you compare it to alcohol, gambling, drugs, or adrenaline-producing dangerous behaviors, magical thinking is about as dangerous as eating raw cookie dough.Magical thinking is a requirement when you are:looking forward to a vacation, a wedding, or other happy event. Every time you imagine the future, you are visiting a world that does not exist.enjoying a television series, a movie, a novel, a poem, a song, a cartoon, or any other type of fiction. Half of your brain knows these things never happened, but the other half of your brain doesn't care.being persuaded by a well-written bit of advertising.Life is happier when it's less cluttered.Your house will be bigger.Your teeth will be whiter.Angels will sing.You'll be a better dancer.Go to 1800GOTJUNK.comAnd prepare to be amazed.Words create realities in the mind.Magical realism is a type of writing characterized by elements of the fantastic – woven with a deadpan sense of presentation – into an otherwise true story.If you exaggerate, people won't trust you. But if you say something so impossible that it cannot possibly be true, people will be delighted by the possibility you popped into their mind.SARAH: When your home feels clean and happy, the people inside feel clean and happy.BRIAN: I've got a partner who lives down the street from you and we're anxious to bring you a truckload of SPRINGTIME. [sfx magic sparkle]SARAH: You don't have to lift a finger!Predictability is the silent assassin of advertising.Magical realism focuses the imagination, disarms the assassin, and delights the mind.BRIAN: We make junk disappear. [sfx magic sparkle]SARAH: All you have to do is point.Magical thinking is good for your soul.Magical realism is good for your business.Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.Roy H. WilliamsThe reinvention of Gigi Meier is nothing short of remarkable. After three decades at the boardroom level of a multi-billion-dollar bank, Gigi reinvented herself as a romance writer. Gigi has published 16 books, some quite steamy, across three ongoing series. Did Gigi to draw on her extensive banking experience to fuel her publishing success? No! She tells roving reporter Rotbart that the opposite is true! Gigi has discovered valuable insights as a romance publisher that would have been useful during her banking career! No one has guests as interesting as roving reporter Rotbart. Am I right! This party will get started the moment you arrive...

The property management industry is no stranger to conferences and in-person events, but have you ever thought about creating an event yourself? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the behind-the-scenes of putting on a live event or conference and all the pros and cons of doing so. You'll Learn [04:39] Learning from Past Mistakes and Failures [15:32] Getting Back in the Saddle: DoorGrow Live [21:07] What Goes Into Creating a Conference? [30:31] The Magic of In-Person Events Quotables “I think being able to just connect with people, making sure that people know who you are and what you do, I mean, it's really valuable.” “When you've got a room full of people who are in the same sector, in the same industry, there's so much knowledge in that room.” “When you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and a share a business model, like it really helps you grow.” “Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: When you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and share a business model, like it really helps you grow. [00:00:08] Jason: Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to. [00:00:13] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the Property Management Growth Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:42] Jason: You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. [00:01:06] Jason: We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:14] Sarah: Woo!  [00:01:15] Jason: So first, you'll have to excuse if I sound a little nasally today, because I have a cold, which doesn't happen often. And I might have given it to Sarah. I don't know. [00:01:25] Sarah: My sinuses just feel weird.  [00:01:27] Jason: So.  [00:01:27] Sarah: So thanks.  [00:01:28] Jason: Yeah.  [00:01:29] Sarah: Thanks for that.  [00:01:30] Jason: Okay, so.  [00:01:31] Sarah: Appreciate it.  [00:01:32] Jason: You keep kissing me. I'm not kissing you. Like I'm not trying to get you sick.  [00:01:35] Sarah: He's not kissing me.  [00:01:36] Sarah: She can't resist.  [00:01:37] Sarah: Does anybody believe that? Nobody believes you. Nobody should.  [00:01:40] Jason: I'm sick. You keep coming up to me. [00:01:42] Jason: I'm like, you want this? Obviously she does, guys. Obviously.  [00:01:46] Sarah: Oh brother.  [00:01:47] Sarah: Alright.  [00:01:48] Sarah: What a great episode. What a great kicker offered.  [00:01:51] Jason: So I might be coughing and I apologize. Alright, so what we're talking about today is we thought we'd give you a little bit of behind the scenes into us creating an event and us doing DoorGrow Live, getting prepped and prepared for this. You know, we put an entire year into getting this thing going and getting this prepared and promoting it, finding speakers. [00:02:15] Jason: And so let's chat a little bit about some of the behind the scenes stuff.  [00:02:19] Sarah: Yeah. So one of the things that I wanted to talk about is kind of everything that really goes into it behind the scenes that when you go attend an event, you just don't notice. You just don't like realize a lot of the times, unless you're used to running events. [00:02:35] Sarah: And once you start running an event, go run one event and then you will attend every other event differently. For example, when we go to, you know, Aaron's events, or Funnel Hacking Live, my brain is constantly going, like, operationally, this must be a nightmare. How on earth are they coordinating all of this? [00:02:56] Sarah: It's just insane. Because I know how crazy it is with our conferences, and we don't yet have thousands of people there. We will, at one point. But, man, there's just so much that goes into it. So, If you're ever considering running events, and I think that for property managers and for anyone who's a real estate agent or investor, I really think events are something that you should at least look into. And it doesn't have to be this big crazy event where, you know, you spend 25- 30 thousand dollars like we do and that's kind of like a low budget, you know. That's like you'll blow through that real quick. It doesn't have to be anything like that and it definitely doesn't have to be this, you know, this big crazy promoted thing you can do your own version of events like in a very different way, back when I was in property management, you know, we would do some little networking events and they were nowhere near the size, but also nowhere near the cost, but they can be really beneficial for you to do. So I think if you haven't experimented with that, then maybe get some tips and pointers and check it out. Like try it, experiment and see what happens. Because for me, it was really great to just be connected. So there's that saying, "your net worth is in your network," and I think being able to just connect with people, make sure that people know who you are and what you do, I mean, it's really valuable. So if you're a property manager and you haven't done a little in person event yet, then perhaps you might want to try. And we're going to talk a little bit about, you know, what goes into like a bigger event the way that we run them. So why don't you give them some background? [00:04:41] Sarah: When was your first? Your first DoorGrow Live was pre-Sarah, the pre-Sarah DoorGrow age, I think it was it 2018?  [00:04:49] Jason: Yeah. 2018. 2018. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:04:51] Sarah: Okay. Can you talk about you know, what was the first DoorGrow Live like?  [00:04:57] Jason: Oh man. Yeah. And if you want to get a visual of this, you can go to, I think it's photos.doorgrow.Com and we have photos of all of our different major events. You can go back to 2018 and there's a nice photo of me and Mike Michalowicz there. And so we brought in some big, you know, for me, they were big speakers. Some people that I really looked up to and that I got a lot of value from. [00:05:22] Jason: So, coach, authors, you know, people that I had worked with. And so, it was a big deal. We spent, I think we spent about $115,000. Putting that event together because I wanted to do it, right. I didn't want my first event to be Mickey Mouse or cheap or you know, whatever So I wanted to do a really good job and I thought well, "and we'll sell tickets to make up for it." We did. We sold about a hundred and fifteen tickets at around, I think $1,000 a pop. [00:05:53] Jason: And I have a whole podcast episode I did on this. I call it my $2 million mistake because we were growing at a pace of, we were doing about a million in revenue a year and we were growing at a pace of about 300% percent at the time we were growing really quickly. We had a lot of momentum, and I decided to do this big conference. It was a little bit of an ego thing. Like it was like kind of a dream that I wanted to feel cool and be on stage and it was super stressful. The event went really well. People liked it, but I was massively stressed during it. And then I didn't do another one for how many years? I don't know.  [00:06:29] Sarah: Yeah, that was his first and only and then like canceled it  [00:06:33] Jason: I was like, "I don't think I'll do that again." [00:06:35] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:06:36] Jason: I mean I didn't realize everything that goes into it. I'm sure people were watching me start my first conference from the sidelines who have done events in the space were like, "good luck, bro," because they know how hard it can be. [00:06:47] Jason: It's like starting a whole nother business but you have to recognize there's like the hotel. It's hard to do an event that's not at a hotel. So you kind of have to do it at hotels and so they have this like, sort of, they're like the mafia. [00:07:01] Jason: They have this control over doing events. Like, and you go to them, you're like, "I want to do an event here." And they're like, "cool." And like finances become a thing and they negotiate a group rate with you, which means you have to book certain number of rooms because they want you to book rooms, and if you don't book out the group rate for the rooms in the room block, then you're responsible to pay for that. [00:07:24] Jason: So we were on the hook for like a lot of money for rooms. I'm like, "well, how many rooms does that mean? And like how many nights?" And all this stuff. So just managing finances for an event is like managing finances for a dangerous business startup is really what it is. Because people have gone bankrupt from doing big events really big events where you have two, three thousand, five thousand. These are millions and millions of dollars in and out. [00:07:48] Sarah: Yeah. [00:07:49] Jason: And if they don't navigate this well, it can bankrupt companies  [00:07:53] Sarah: Russell just said that on stage. He didn't say who, but Russell Brunson said that he knew someone that was running a big event, didn't sell enough rooms in the room block, and he went bankrupt from it because it was such a large event and he was on the hook for so much money and ended up bankrupting the company. [00:08:13] Jason: It's dangerous. And then you got to get people to buy the ticket, book the hotel, like, and then there's marketing to do this. You got to spend a lot of money to get people to do this. And then, you know, in order to attract people, sometimes people will do like big speakers. Like I got some speakers and let me tell you speakers, they're expensive. [00:08:33] Jason: Like usually they, they want thousands and thousands of dollars. Like an  [00:08:37] Sarah: inexpensive speaker just to like put it out there, like an inexpensive speaker is still usually around like 5k  [00:08:44] Jason: Anyone you've probably heard of is that minimum 25 grand.  [00:08:47] Sarah: Well more than that. [00:08:49] Jason: And if they're a big name It's 50k, 100k, it can be really expensive to have them come be in an event. [00:08:58] Jason: So, Yeah, so it can be really challenging. Then there's food and beverage minimums. So the hotel, they're like, "you also have to spend a certain amount on food and beverage while you're here." Yeah, so they're like, "you have to book a certain number of rooms. You have to, like, pay for a certain number of food and beverage, and you're not allowed to bring any other food or beverage into our place." [00:09:19] Jason: Nope.  [00:09:19] Jason: "You have to use our stuff. And our stuff is like going to the movie theater. It's overly priced, like, inflated."  [00:09:26] Sarah: Remember, we did the Game Changer event at the JW Marriott in Austin so I looked at everything afterwards and it was not a huge event. It was not a big event. We had under 20 people there. [00:09:40] Sarah: Yeah. And that included like Jason, myself, DoorGrow staff, speakers, like under 20 people. And one lunch and we had, it was a two day event. So we did like two lunches. So one lunch, I think was somewhere around like two or 3,000 dollars. Yeah, it was insane for lunch.  [00:09:57] Jason: And my first event, we spent eight grand to provide coffee for two days. Eight grand for...  [00:10:03] Sarah: coffee. Yeah.  [00:10:05] Jason: For two days like and you know, and they have all these rules. I think the rules are made to inflate the price, but they have these food and beverage and they charge you sometimes by plate. So that hotel that we were at our first event, we didn't realize this, but they have people to go around and pick up plates. [00:10:22] Jason: And you're paying by the number of plates people use. Like how much food they consume and by plate. So they were picking up plates.  [00:10:29] Sarah: Oh my god.  [00:10:30] Jason: It's a racket. Like if you go into this not knowing what you're doing, some hotels can take gross amounts of money. Wow. They negotiate a terrible group rate, they negotiate a horrible food and beverage minimum is really high for you, and then you go way over that minimum if they have anything to do with it. [00:10:45] Jason: And so you're spending all this money and they're like, "well..."  [00:10:47] Sarah: you'll never have to worry about hitting your minimum in food and beverage, like, never. No, really.  [00:10:51] Jason: I mean, if you want food there, period, like,  [00:10:54] Sarah: you're going to hit it. So, I don't care. I don't even care what my minimum is because it doesn't, honestly, it doesn't even matter.  [00:11:00] Jason: Yeah. So then people think, oh, well, then I'll do the event somewhere else. Well, if you do it somewhere else, then how are they going to get from where they're staying to the venue? And so then there's a logistical challenge. So then like people aren't like coming and it's just like it's so much easier if they walk. [00:11:17] Jason: So everything gets like complicated when you don't do it at the hotel.  [00:11:22] Sarah: Where was your first event? Where was it?  [00:11:24] Jason: It was in St. Louis at an old classic hotel. It was really beautiful.  [00:11:28] Sarah: Okay. Interesting.  [00:11:30] Jason: Yeah, we did in St. Louis. We did it at This hotel and we did it because we thought we'll make it easy because NARPM had an event around the same time. [00:11:41] Jason: So we're like, Oh man, we want to do it at the same time. So let's just do it at the same venue. I think we did it the same venue, but we booked a nicer room on the top floor with lots of windows. It was very cool. And it was on different days. So you could attend both. We thought that would give us some cross pollination and really, it didn't. [00:12:00] Jason: Like there were a few people that went to the NARPM one and came to ours, but yeah, it was like so small. So that didn't even really help. "We're like, yeah, it's so easy to stay a little longer and go to ours." [00:12:08] Sarah: Interesting. Okay. Yeah.  [00:12:10] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:11] Sarah: So after the first DoorGrow Live, he decided, I think when I came on board, he said, "I'm never doing another event again." [00:12:18] Jason: Yeah, I just didn't want to deal with it. It was so stressful. And your whole team, that's the real part of it, is like your whole team is involved in it in different ways, unless you have someone specifically handling sales, event, marketing, planning, advertising, planning, like every role we had in our business that we needed for our business had to go towards the conference because we were now on the hook for, I can't remember, like 50, 80 grand or something with the hotel. We had to figure out how to get rooms booked. We had to figure out how to pay for speakers. It was a whole thing. It was like starting a whole nother business. And our main thing was no longer the main thing. [00:12:58] Jason: So our business stopped growing. It actually didn't grow for several years after that, like a couple of years after that. And that's why I call it my 3 million or 2 million mistake, but it was probably a bigger multi million dollar mistake than that, because there's a lot of money I could have made over those years extra. [00:13:14] Jason: We're not hurting by any means, but that really slowed things down. And I just chalk that up to being the price of tuition in business. I made a mistake. I didn't know. And I learned from it, right? And I didn't listen to my mentor. Alex was like, "make it a really small event. Make it really small. Do your first one, make it small." I'm like, "no way. I've been to so many events. I'm going to make this awesome. I want this. If I'm going to compete with all the other events that are out there, I want this to be the best." And I really think, like, we had the best food there. We had the best, like, everything was the best. [00:13:46] Jason: We had audio visual team. We had a stage set up, like, we put a lot of money into this and it was pretty awesome. Like, it went pretty well. But I was massively stressed during the whole event. And yeah, but people that went, they gave us good feedback. They had a good experience. So, which I'm glad. Then you got to like ticket sales is hard too. [00:14:06] Jason: That's a tough challenge. How do you get people to give up what they're doing to come do something else? And so, you know, we've created some really strong magic. I think at DoorGrow, like our in person events, there's just something magical about our events. There's more heart, there's more connection. [00:14:20] Jason: It changes lives and that's very different than what has happened in the space. And I think that's more just about who we are and what we bring and the type of speakers that we bring in. It's very different than just property management.  [00:14:34] Sarah: And so that's one of the things I wanted to talk about is, so you did your first event. [00:14:39] Sarah: It went well, but it was pretty crazy. We basically broke even. We're not doing another event. I came on to the business a couple years after this and there's still a lot of like trauma and PTSD associated with it and then we started talking. Well, what if we do another event? And he said "no. No I don't want to do another event," and I said, "well, what if we do it differently?" So we did bring DoorGrow Live back after that first conference that they did and we've done several of them since then. We have another one coming up in May. It's May 16th and 17th. It's a Friday and Saturday at the Kalahari Resorts in the North Austin, Texas area. So if you're watching this and you have not yet registered, then definitely go do that. You can go to doorgrowlive.Com. But we've done several of these events since then, and one of the reasons that we wanted to bring these events back, especially even though for Jason it was just so, so traumatic, we just needed to do them a little differently. [00:15:43] Sarah: So, the reason that we wanted to bring them back though is because everything is just so much different when it's in person. And we know that there's so much magic that can just happen if, you know, if we can get people in a room. It's not just going to another conference. So in the industry, there's a lot of conferences, I mean, there's tech conferences and like all the big you know softwares have their own thing and there's NARPM events and there's all kinds of things like this and DoorGrow Live is just different. It's different than all of those things. We're not trying to focus on hey, you know, what are they doing and let's duplicate it. We're focused on how can we provide like such a great experience and such great value and real connection in a like large group environment? Which is hard. [00:16:38] Sarah: Like that's a challenge. If you're like, okay, we're going to get, you know, 50 to a hundred people in a room and we want them to all be connected. That's hard. That's hard. But I think that our events do actually a really great job at that.  [00:16:49] Jason: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, we get great testimonials. It's going to we have a really cool venue We just decided to keep doing it at this Kalahari resort. [00:16:59] Jason: It's near our house. It's in Round Rock They treat us really well there. It's a big it's like we have endless room to grow there We could have thousands and thousands of people someday if we wanted to. There's plenty of room there  [00:17:12] Sarah: But they're great to work with and the rooms are nice. When you guys book a room, the rooms are nice, everything is right on property, it's very family friendly too, so, you know, if you want to kind of bring your family and usually, I've noticed sometimes people, when they go to the conference, and then their family stays at home, there's a little bit of like, "oh, you're leaving me with the kids, like, what is this? Like, you get to go off to a conference and," well, come, like, come with us and you guys can hang out at, like the water park and the Build A Bear and the restaurants and the like arcade and there's still...  [00:17:48] Jason: America's largest indoor water park. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:17:52] Sarah: And I think when you book a room, they include a ticket. [00:17:53] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:17:54] Jason: You get a ticket to all a bunch of cool stuff. So like you get a, like a wristband. So yeah it's a pretty fun place. Like there's a whole Facebook group just for people looking for deals and discounts to stay at this resort. Yeah. They're like always talking about it in that group. I've joined all the local groups, just see what's going on. [00:18:15] Jason: So, yeah, so it's pretty interesting. So yeah, we've got a really cool venue. And oh, the other things places have charged us for other places we've done some of our events they charge us for electricity, they charge us for, like, just having cords put down.  [00:18:31] Sarah: They charge for internet. [00:18:32] Jason: They find a way to charge you for everything at some venues, and so, not all venues are equal. [00:18:38] Jason: So, yeah, so we've really appreciated the Kalahari Resort in Round Rock. It's a cool resort, and they treat us really well there, so.  [00:18:45] Sarah: Yeah, and it's a great experience for people. Because that's really frustrating when you go into any kind of hotel and you're like, "Oh. Why is this where I'm at? I guess I'll be here because the conference is here, but outside of the conference being here, I would never book here." And this is not that at all. Like people like to book here for sure. I think now let's do our little demo and then we'll get back into it.  [00:19:08] Jason: Got a little sponsor for today's episode, KRS SmartBooks. [00:19:13] Jason: Do you have properties to manage and zero time for bookkeeping headaches? KRS SmartBooks is your secret weapon. They specialize in finances for busy property managers like you with 15 plus years of real estate know how and skills in Appfolio, Yardi, and more. Imagine monthly reports magically appearing and zero accounting stress. [00:19:35] Jason: Sound good? Head to KRS Books. At K as in Kansas, R as in Roger, S as in Sam. Books. Sarah's already dying. She's like, you didn't do the right military phonetically.  [00:19:46] Sarah: I really am dying inside.  [00:19:47] Jason: KRSbooks. com to book your free discovery call. Integrity, quality, and a dash of bookkeeping brilliance. That's KRS Smart Books. [00:19:58] Jason: Alright, how should I phonetically do KRS?  [00:20:00] Sarah: K like Kilo, R like Romeo, S like Sierra.  [00:20:04] Jason: Alright, Sarah, by the way, is Becoming a pilot. She's taking pilot flying lessons.  [00:20:11] Sarah: I've known the military code for years  [00:20:13] Sarah: because I used to work in a casino and that's how they would communicate in slot machines.  [00:20:20] Jason: Yeah, alright. [00:20:21] Sarah: But now it's also handy being a pilot.  [00:20:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:24] Sarah: Alright, so if that sounds good, I think it sounds really great. Because I know a lot of property managers struggle with bookkeeping, and that's usually not something that's fun for property managers. It's definitely necessary, but it, oh man, it's not fun, and it's really draining. [00:20:38] Sarah: So if you can find someone that's great at what they do, and you can allow them to handle that, and just kind of check in and make sure things are going well, then, whoo, man, life gets a lot easier.  [00:20:51] Jason: Yeah if you're not paying attention to the finances or the financial health of your business or your accounting You're probably getting stolen from it's just I've seen it happen so many times. [00:21:01] Jason: So get a great bookkeeper. Yeah have people you trust to take care of that. Okay.  [00:21:07] Sarah: So speaking of finances, let's talk a little bit about what kind of goes into an event. So for example, we have our DoorGrow Live coming up in May this year. So we have been working on this event now since, so our last one was in May, and then I think we started working on the new one in like July, June or July. [00:21:31] Sarah: So things that have to kind of happen just to be able to have the space, obviously, you have to look into venues, you have to, you know, look at the space, make sure it's going to work for the size of your group, which means you kind of have to estimate a little bit what it's going to look like, and then make sure that the room can. [00:21:48] Sarah: fit more or less if needed.  [00:21:51] Jason: You've got to negotiate with the hotel.  [00:21:53] Sarah: Yep. You've got to negotiate what the rates would be. You know, am I paying for the space or am I paying for the room block and the food? Because there's different ways to do it. So you've got to figure out, you know, how many rooms in the room block do I need? [00:22:09] Sarah: Because if you overestimate that, if you go, "Hey, I think I'm going to have a thousand people come" and 100 people come, it is not going to be a good time for you because every room in the room block that is not sold, you are financially on the hook for. So you get to pay for that. And it's like, it's a certain number of nights. [00:22:28] Sarah: So it's not even so much how many rooms it's, how many nights someone will book. So you want to track that along the way. And then you want to start looking at a lot of the tactical things that go into it, like, well, who is going to speak at the event? So you want to start looking at speakers and when you're looking at speakers, you start to think about, you know, who would our audience resonate with and what kind of value would they provide? [00:22:55] Sarah: And, you know, is this strategic and tactical stuff or is this like mindset and empowerment stuff? Because you kind of want to get a mix of both at each event because everyone who comes to an event They're looking for a different thing. So it's really impossible to satisfy everybody make sure everybody, you know is super happy with everything sometimes people say, "oh, I wish there was more of this and oh, I wish there was more of that," but you kind of have to do like this balance and mix to make sure that everybody gets something out of it. [00:23:25] Sarah: And that they have a great experience. You also want to build a little bit of fun into it. So that it's not just, "hey, show up to this conference, sit down, learn something, take some notes and walk out of the room." You know, we've been to events like that before. Where it's like, "okay, that was a lot. But also, man, it would have been really cool to like, do something fun and you know connect with people," so you want to you know start to build in some time so that people can connect with other people, you know, so are you going to do a mixer? [00:23:52] Sarah: Are you going to do some sort of networking event? You know, are you going to you know go do kind of some fun event before like the night before? Are you going to, you know, send them off to lunch together? What is that going to look like? So that they can really connect with each other especially when you've got a room full of people who are in the same sector, in the same industry, there's so much knowledge in that room. [00:24:15] Sarah: So just talking to other people in the room is really valuable and making connections. So there's got to be some room for that as well. And then you want to think about well, are we going to have any vendors or sponsors? Yeah, and are those vendors or sponsors people that have services that are valuable and that we trust? Because there have also been times where, you know, someone had wanted to sponsor us and we did not want them to be a sponsor. [00:24:43] Sarah: Because if they don't provide a great service, you know, can you throw some money and be in the room? Yeah, but if it's not the right person to be in the room, then that matters. That matters a lot. So we have turned down money. We've turned down sponsorships. So then you also have to think about all of the tactical things. [00:25:05] Sarah: Well, you know, am I doing round tables? Am I doing classroom style? Are we doing full circles? Are we doing semi circles? Like what is the front of the room? And what's the back of the room? And where are the vendors going to be? And what doors do people walk in and out of? And as soon as they walk in, what is the first thing that they see? [00:25:20] Sarah: In what direction do we want to go in? And are they crossing over our equipment? Is somebody going to trip and fall on all the 10,000 chords that we have like taped down and. Then you have to also think about things like your AV. So does the room have internet? Is there power in the room? And I know that seems like a silly question to ask, but guess what? [00:25:40] Sarah: Sometimes they charge you for power. So you would think, hey, there's power in the room, obviously, because like it's at a hotel. They obviously have electricity. Yeah, but do you have to pay for it?  [00:25:49] Jason: Yeah, AV is expensive. Like we rented it initially and it was so costly.  [00:25:54] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:25:54] Jason: For the price you could rent it for it made sense to just buy it. [00:25:58] Sarah: To buy it.  [00:25:59] Jason: And so we eventually bought all our own equipment, but that means now we have to set it up and we have to figure it out. And so, yeah, so there's always a challenge.  [00:26:08] Sarah: Before the actual conference, like before anybody even steps foot like on property, Jason and I and several members of our team are there setting things up. [00:26:18] Jason: Sometimes my kids. Yeah,  [00:26:19] Sarah: sometimes the kids, sometimes an assistant, sometimes Madi comes on in.  [00:26:22] Jason: We're hooking up lights, we're plugging in audio equipment.  [00:26:25] Sarah: So we like pack everything up in Jason's SUV. We drive it over, we unload it. I'm doing this in stilettos, mind you, because I'm a stubborn  [00:26:33] Jason: You do everything in stilettos. [00:26:33] Sarah: Yeah, that's what I am. Right, so we like, we get there, we unpack it, we have to set it all up. You know, we're making sure that, like, all the lights are working, a sound system has to work, because there's no point in having a microphone if it's not going to work. There's always technical errors, and I'm horrible with technology, so Jason is our tech person, and he is the only tech person that we have. [00:26:54] Sarah: So he gets to figure everything out. And then it's like, you know, is the screen working? And can people see it? And is the laptop connecting to the screen? And is it blurry or is it too big or too far? Like there's always these weird little issues that happen and I don't know how to solve any of them. [00:27:10] Sarah: Yeah, so Jason knows how to do that. And then there's the other things like well. What about swag? And you know, are we doing a registration table and who's going to be there to, you know, check people in and make sure they know what to do and they know where to go? And, you know, is there like just kind of first come first serve seating? [00:27:27] Sarah: Or is there like a separate section for, you know, special clients or VIP clients or speakers or the team? And there's also things like, "Oh, well what about name badges?" You know, are we doing, like, are we doing name badges? Are we, you know, making sure that everybody kind of knows who everybody else is? Is there anything special or is it just like a bunch of people walking into a room and then hopefully they figure out that they're in the right room? Like there's so much that goes into it and then there's the scheduling. So well, you know, who's going to go in what order, what day and time are certain speakers available? Because just because they commit to an event doesn't mean, "oh, I can speak at any point during the event." [00:28:11] Sarah: So, you know, it's putting the agenda together and how long do you give them for lunch and where are they going for lunch? And are we doing lunch? Are we, you know, letting them facilitate it on their own? Are we doing breaks? How do we get them back from breaks? Are we, it's crazy. Like it's so, there's so much. [00:28:28] Jason: If you give people a break at an event, it's like 30 minutes of downtime. Oh yeah. It's really hard to get people to like get to the next thing or come back right away. And they all start talking to each other, which is cool. They want to network. Yeah, so getting people back from lunch.  [00:28:43] Sarah: Yes, absolutely. Yes. [00:28:45] Sarah: And then it's, you know, who kicks off the event? Who opens it? Who closes it? Who's going after lunch? Because we all know most people, what happens to them after lunch? They're tired. I'm fine. But a lot of people, they're tired after lunch. So you can't have a, you know, more mundane or quiet or low energy speaker after lunch. [00:29:06] Sarah: You just can't. Because you'll lose everybody. So there's a lot that goes into the scheduling as well. And then there's things like, you know, who's going to MC it? Who's making announcements? Who's making sure that everybody knows where to be? And what time? And what to do and when to come back? And who's doing the intros for speakers? [00:29:26] Sarah: Are you doing music for every speaker that comes up? If so, like, are they picking it? Are you picking it? What happens? Like there is so so so much that goes into it, and then after you like run the event then you got to break it all down if it's your equipment. Yeah, so then it's like pack it all up and put it away and make sure nothing gets damaged or lost and repack the car and unload it again, and like there is so much that goes Into it. [00:29:53] Sarah: And I would say at this point, it's funny because Jason now can show up to DoorGrow Live and nine out of 10 times, he has no idea what's going to happen or when.  [00:30:05] Sarah: I love it.  [00:30:06] Sarah: I just call him up on stage and he's like, oh, okay, because, and I'm like, my team handle most of it. Talking on this go.  [00:30:12] Jason: Right now. I still just have to make sure the tech stuff all works. [00:30:15] Jason: But yeah, other than that, yeah, I don't. I don't have to do as much which is nice, but because it's stressful enough. It's stressful enough So yeah, so it's a lot. There's a lot that goes into it, but it's been worth it to have you know to see people's lives change to see people impacted. We've noticed there's some sort of magic that happens that when people come to something in person with us even if they've been a client for years, they start to get different results. [00:30:40] Jason: They start to see things differently. They start to absorb all of our content, our information, our training material, our ideas more effectively. Everything just magnifies. There's something about in person. You can't get the same sort of benefit in your business. If you think, "all I need to do is read books and watch videos and show up to zoom calls to grow my business. [00:31:04] Jason: Look, there's a lot of benefits in all of those things. I do all those things, but we still go to in person things. There's something different about in person that I don't know if it's the energy of being in the same space as the people you're learning from. If it's the group energy and that group mind that makes you able to like learn and faster. [00:31:23] Jason: There's, but there's some, I don't know if maybe there's some quantum physical magic, magical stuff, but there's something different about it in person. It's happened too many times for me to like believe otherwise or to dismiss it. I've had too many clients that I've been working with for years, go to their first in person thing with us, and then they have some breakthrough. And I'm like what? And they tell me about it, and I'm like, "I've been teaching you that for years!" Like "I know but like but it's just hit differently." [00:31:51] Jason: Yeah, "I just got it." [00:31:52] Sarah: It hits different. It feels different and you just absorb things. [00:31:57] Jason: And because we've seen this pattern, we've seen this pattern, we now make it part of our onboarding of every new client to come hang out with Sarah and I in person for a one day with usually a small cohort and like, and just get some things figured out and dialed in their business. [00:32:14] Jason: And that's been magic for our business. Like it's been magic for our clients, magic for us. So we give them that in person experience early on. And then DoorGrow Live allows them to connect with others, which is there's just something different about the people at DoorGrow. The property managers at DoorGrow are different. [00:32:30] Jason: I've been to a lot of conferences. A lot. Like in various industries, but especially in property management. And there's something different about the people that we attract and the clients that we attract. They're growth minded, they're positive active in mentalities, which means they're not like the skeptical, negative Nancy's that are grumpy about the industry and the business. [00:32:51] Jason: That there's this positive growth minded, healthier sort of personality that we attract at DoorGrow. And maybe that says a little bit about who we are, because that's what I tried to be. But we attract amazing people and the connections people make, when you're connecting with other people that are like you, that are growth minded and you both share an industry and a share a business model, like it really helps you grow. [00:33:15] Jason: Your business is the sum of the five property management business owners you as a business owner are most connected to or that you're most influenced by. So look at those property managers if you've got coaches or mentors, and they're not people that you really like that maybe you think they're smart, but you don't really want to be more like them, then maybe you're around the wrong people. [00:33:34] Jason: Maybe you have the wrong coach, and I'm not the coach for everybody. Sarah's not the coach for everybody. But you should have a coach. Otherwise, you're selling yourself short if you're not accountable to anybody, you're definitely getting less results than you could or should be so come to DoorGrow Live come check us out. This DoorGrow Live, [00:33:52] Jason: I want to open our playbooks up if Sarah lets me. I want to just reveal some really amazing stuff that only our clients get to see because I want to show anyone that shows up that's not part of our DoorGrow ecosystem. Our clients know the magic's there. We have more case studies or testimonials than anyone else in the industry, but if you're not a DoorGrow client, and you want to come to DoorGrow Live I'm going to give you some gifts for sure, some magic. We're going to make some significant changes in your business. They're going to help you make a lot more money a lot more easily and keep a lot more of your profit and so come hang out with us. [00:34:29] Jason: You're not going to be disappointed for sure So there you go.  [00:34:33] Sarah: Yeah. This event we've got some really awesome things planned. We can't let too much out of the bag at this point. But we always have some really great things planned and every event we do, like we always learn from it. [00:34:46] Sarah: And we always do like a little team meeting afterwards and we get feedback from people. We're always looking to make it better and better. And this year is absolutely no exception to that. So the things that we have planned for this year, like I know that if you come to this event, it will change your business and it will change your life. [00:35:12] Sarah: And I know that's a really bold statement and we're ready to back it.  [00:35:16] Jason: Yeah. And maybe that could be a later podcast episode as we get closer to the event. But we can tell you a little bit more about what's going to be happening there, but hopefully this was interesting to get behind the scenes at all that goes into DoorGrow Live and we meet on this you know, we're talking about it weekly, monthly in our planning meetings, like and quarterly. [00:35:37] Jason: And so, and that's it for today's episode. So if you are interested in that, go check it out at DoorGrowLive.Com and get your tickets and get things booked and get ready to come have an amazing experience in May at DoorGrow Live. So, and until next time to our mutual growth, bye everyone. 

Join host Carol Pankow in this thought-provoking episode of Manager Minute as she sits down with VR fiscal powerhouses Katie Marchesano, Chris Merritt, Allison Flanagan, and Sarah Clardy. Together, they unpack the pressing fiscal issues shaping the vocational rehabilitation (VR) landscape, including: ·  Navigating fiscal forecasting challenges · Addressing technology gaps · Strengthening collaboration between program and fiscal teams The conversation highlights the vital role of policies, training, and institutional knowledge in sustaining VR programs while anticipating future shifts, such as technological advancements, fiscal constraints, and potential WIOA reauthorization. Don't miss this episode, packed with actionable insights and expert reflections to keep VR programs thriving!   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music} Katie: I'm really excited for that tool to be shared, and I think it's going to be a really helpful tool for the agencies.   Carol: This job takes constant attention to detail in what is happening. It is always going to be work.   Chris: More people are going to be reaching out asking for fiscal forecasting and understanding how to look at this program in the future.   Allison: One of the things that pops in my mind that might happen over the next three years is reauthorization of WIOA.   Sarah: I think we're going to see some new resources, hopefully in the technology world develop, that will assist our agencies so that their focus can remain on the customers where it belongs.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today are my colleagues Katie Marchesano, Chris Merritt, Allison Flanagan and Sarah Clardy. So this might be a little bit of calamity for our listeners, but we're going to do it. So how y'all doing today?   Sarah: Great   Chris: Great.   Allison: Good.   Katie: Wonderful.   Carol: Awesome to hear it. Well, we have had quite a journey on the QM for the past four years. The fiscal focus was a new aspect of the grant, and we are so grateful to then Commissioner Mark Schultz for realizing that TA in this area was an essential element to the work. And since we're in this final year of the grant, we wanted to have a chance to visit together, share our insights with the listeners into the whole fiscal picture across the VR program, and discuss our perceptions and perspectives. So buckle up, folks, and we're going to dig in. So I want to start with how you each found your way to VR. And I'm going to start with Chris to talk about your journey into VR.   Chris: Well thanks, Carol. Mine's a little bit different than most people. I did not start in VR. I have a very different background. All fiscal for the most part. But I came to work at a fiscal state unit and learned about VR there. Loved it, loved it, loved it. And then was kind of asked to be part of this Ta team and couldn't say no because it's just an incredible program and it's a little complicated. So being able to help the states understand it better is what brought me to this team.   Carol: Well, not you, and you're being modest now. Tell them about like a little bit more of your background because you have an interesting educational background and all of that.   Chris: Yeah, I do. So I'm an environmental engineer by trade. Worked in that field for a while. Learned that sampling sludge was not a cool thing to be doing. So went to work for a small business that was just starting on Department of Defense World. Loved all the fiscal part of that. Went back to school and got my MBA and have been doing fiscal stuff ever since. So yeah, it's a long road that brought me here, but I'm happy I took it.   Carol: Yeah, we're glad you're here. How about you, Miss Allison?   Allison: Well, it's kind of hard to believe that I have over 30 years in this VR journey, and it actually started out in the field as a VR technician, and I just fell in love with the mission and purpose of VR. So I quickly changed my direction to be a VR counselor, and then that evolved to other promotions and positions throughout the year, where I ended up being director of both Kentucky Blind Agency and then moved to Florida as the General Agency Director. And when the VR TKM opportunity came about, I was ready for a change, especially after being a director through the pandemic and through the implementation of WIOA. I was looking forward to just a new opportunity, new learning areas, so this has been a great jump for me. I've enjoyed it very much.   Carol: Why don't you tell them too about your other gig with NRLI a little bit. We'll make a plug there.   Allison: Yeah. So part of the VRTAC-QM is the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute through San Diego State University. I have the honor of continuing Fred McFarland's legacy, who began this program about 25 years ago. And it is a program that is building the future leaders in the vocational rehabilitation field. And it's been a joy to see these leaders be promoted throughout their careers. Being stepping up, having an interest at that national level, the issues that are facing VR. So it is definitely a part of my job with QM that I hold near and dear to my heart.   Carol: Yeah, it's good stuff, I love it NRLI of our favorite things to participate in when we get to do training. So Katie, over to you next.   Katie: Well, my journey with VR started when my brother was receiving VR services, and he actually is who inspired me to go and get my bachelor's degree in psychology and work in social services. That led me to Department of Workforce Services, where I spent 13 years in various roles and capacities, which ultimately led me back to VR.   Carol: Awesome sauce. And last but not least, Sarah Clardy.   Sarah: So I started out about 24 years ago out of college. I was working in banking full time and going to school full time, and had an opportunity to come on with a state and Missouri vocational rehabilitation, had an opening for an assistant director of accounting and procurement. They had some systems and processes that were a little out of whack and needed some help with reorganizing pretty much the whole accounting structure. So I came over at that time and started in with Missouri, and then spent 20 years there and got to spend half of that time in the field directly with our field staff and counselors and really take this program to heart, and then had an opportunity four years ago to join the VRTAC-QM. I had said for a long time we needed technical assistance in the fiscal realm for years and years. I was thrilled that Mark Schultz saw the vision and made it happen.   Carol: Good stuff. Well, now we're going to enter the danger zone because I have some questions for you all. Not exactly sure how this is going to go, but we are going to do our best. So y'all jump in when you want. So what has been your biggest realization or aha moment since you started with the QM. And Allison, I'm going to have you kick us off and then other folks can jump in.   Allison: Honestly, Carol, there's been a lot of those aha moments for me over the last, you know, almost three years with the Technical Assistance Center since my experience in VR started in the field and I was a counselor, kind of the program side is where my comfort level is or my knowledge and experience. So when I joined the fiscal team there, definitely there was a lot of those aha moments, mainly a lot of the things that I did not know or did not realize even as a director when I came over. So one of those aha's is the director. Even though I received these beautiful monthly budget reports for my fiscal staff, even though I had a leadership team that we reviewed budgets with, understanding the fiscal requirements in and out, the uniform grant guidance and all the regulations. And, EDGAR, all of that, I think, is critical for any director or their leadership team to have knowledge of. And that was definitely one of my aha moments. And one of those things I go back, wow, if I could go back and be a director, I would be a lot smarter after being on the technical assistance side. And like I said, there's been a lot of those aha moments. I could share tons of them, but a couple other ones that jump out is just that critical need for that program side of the House and the fiscal side of the House, to always be communicating and always making sure they're checking with each other. On whether it's a new implementation, whether it's expenses, contracts, doesn't matter. There needs to be that collaboration happening at that level. And then probably the technology challenges is another one of those constant aha moments in the year that we're in and how reliant we are on technology. I am still amazed that there is not technology out there that will do what VR needs it to do, right off the shelf.   Carol: Amen, sister. You said it all. No, but I'm sure there's people that want to say some more.   Chris: I found it interesting when I came over that not every single, not a single state has it right. I thought that there would be more that are fully knowledgeable and are running with it and doing all the great things they are doing, the great things. They just don't have 100% right.   Carol: You are making me laugh with this because I'm just going to say I have to jump in on that. Sarah and I right away, in the beginning, anytime we had met with RSA we learned something new, we're like, uh, I gotta call back to Minnesota, tell them, because we realized, like, hey, we thought we were sort of doing it right, but we all realized things. We went, uh, yeah, we had a little slight misstep on that.   Katie: I would agree with that. Like, we came from a state that was in an intensive agreement. And, you know, I was like, man, we really got it wrong. But then, you know, it's a huge learning curve and there's a lot of people that are putting in their best effort, and they're still just a few things that aren't quite right.   Chris: Absolutely.   Katie: Another realization that I had was we have this table of contents for a grant management manual that we send out to agencies. And when I received it in Wyoming, I was intimidated by all the things that needed to be included. But my aha moment was when you break that down into individual items and you really look at it, it's things that are already in place, the policies and procedures that you're already working on. It's just finding a way to get that on paper and put it into some sort of policy and procedure and internal control. So realizing that states have the capacity to do that, just figuring out how was an aha moment for me.   Sarah: You know, when I came in, I was thinking back to 2017 and RSA came out with guidance on, I'm going to say it, Period of Performance. And it dominated our whole agency for a good nine months, trying to understand the guidance, looking at systems. We had to do a whole overhaul with the way we looked at obligations, just we spent a massive amount of time and effort to right size our systems, internal controls and all of that because prior to performance sets the beat for all of financial within a VR program. So coming into the QM, I really assumed that more agencies knew of Period of Performance and had gone through at least similar steps, or at least had internal conversations. And what I found was completely the opposite. Somehow a lot of folks missed the memo and that work hadn't been done. And of course, we've been running Fred Flintstone style, trying to help agencies get up to snuff. So that's the piece. I think that's been the most interesting. I think for me.   Carol: I think along that same vein for me was really that realization states are more different than I thought because I figured we all had the same information. We all kind of operated sort of the same. You might have your own internal systems, but I remember, Sarah, you and I talking that first year just going like, oh my gosh, everybody is organized so completely differently. They approach their work so completely differently. There isn't just one size fits all. Like, hey, you should do it this way. And like, everybody can do that. Uh uh, it is like having an IPE for how the fiscal is managed. Individualized we need to give very individualized TA. So what do you guys view as the number one challenge facing our programs nationwide? And Sarah, I'm going to have you start us with that.   Sarah: Okay? I'm going to say it I think Allison said it earlier. We are lacking in the technology space. I think a couple of things we have, the pendulum has swung to the other direction and before it was spend, spend, spend, a lot of agencies made adjustments so that they were increasing their spending. The large carryover balances weren't so large. Now my concern is how are we looking at our finances to see if we can still sustain that. And in order to get accurate projections and for leadership teams to have the conversations about where they stand financially, we have to have technology systems in place that are reliable, are tracking period of performance, can provide those fiscal calculations in terms of where we stand on all of the different requirements, so that we have a constant pulse on where do we stand as an agency. And I liken it to being in private industry and a CEO knowing at all times how much does it cost to make the widget? How many widgets are we making and what amount of time? All of those kinds of things. And I feel like in that space right now, we have agencies that are trying to figure that out, and we have some that are in a very delicate position, and it can cause a lot of catastrophe and crisis if that's not solidified. So really, it goes back to having reliable technology that will take care of all of that. And that includes our CMS, our Case Management Systems space. A lot of our vendors are struggling in that Period of Performance area, and we're not there yet. We have a lot more work to do.   Carol: Well, it's like a $4 billion industry, you know, and I feel like we're still using an abacus or something in some cases for tracking the money. It is the most insane thing I have ever seen.   Allison: And, you know, related to that technology challenge, though, is knowing that, that challenge is there, knowing that the technology is not correct. I think what adds to the complexity of that is the fiscal staff or the just the staff within the VR agency. They lack the fiscal knowledge enough to know if their system is working correctly or not, or know how to go in and make the adaptations needed to assist them. And that's a challenge within itself.   Chris: And I will piggyback right on that, because the thing I think that we've struggled with is we have lost so much institutional knowledge that people don't stay in jobs like they used to. And so if these policies and procedures are not written down, you get new people coming in, they don't know what they don't know. And if the technology is not working right, they don't know that that's not something that they can handle. So it's a lack of that long time knowledge that used to be in this program.   Katie: Yeah, Chris, that is exactly where I was going as well, is the loss of staff and institutional knowledge is huge, and it really highlights the importance of getting policies and procedures in place and not waiting till that person has their foot out the door and is ready to head out to make sure that you're getting that in writing. You know, succession planning and really building up success in the team.   Carol: I think for me, one of the things I see, because I love that whole organizational structure and non-delegable responsibilities, I love that area. I think one of the biggest challenges facing the program is the whole shift in how things are organized between if you're in a designated state unit within a designated state agency, and that centralization we have seen of all the fiscal functions along with IT and HR and all of it, but I feel like VR has lost control. And so as these services are centralized, and not that they can't be, but that they get centralized to a point that the VR program has lost complete input control direction. I mean, you've got directors being told you can't spend anything over $5. It has to go through 40 layers. You can't hire anybody. Staff cannot travel to go see customers like all of that. If we can't fix this structure of how things are put into play in each of these states, I really see kind of the demise of the program. As we see things get buried, the program gets buried down within these big agencies. The lack of control ends up leading to problems with them and being able to carry out the mission. And it's really hard to get a handle on that. And I know Congress has given, you know, this leeway so that states can organize like they want. But boy, the way they're organized right now, it's pretty tough.   Allison: It's a double edged sword when you think about it, because you're probably like me Carol, as former directors, we wanted more money going into the consumer services. We wanted it going to support our customers. We wanted to find ways to reduce any kind of administrative type expenses so that that money can go there when the centralized functions were really being pushed at the state levels. In my mind at first, I will say this, at first I saw, yes, this is a benefit because we're going to have these shared services, we're going to be able to spend more of our funds on our customers. And I still somewhat agree with that approach because it is a cost savings. But what has to happen, though, is that balance, what you talked about, the balance where VR still has control over the decisions or they are included in those decisions and the restrictions that have been put in place has to be lifted. But I do see the benefits of those shared services as long as the structure gets set up right.   Carol: Right. And that's been few and far between.   Allison: That needs a national model.   Carol: It does. And that's been a problem. I mean, if there's anything anyone can work on, little congressional assistance in that or whatever, you know, getting some of that rewritten, how that looks.   Sarah: Well, and I came from an agency that was able to retain an entire unit of 13-ish folks when all of those consolidations were occurring because within our Department of Education, our commissioner understood the complexities of our award and knew that if all of those positions rolled up to a department level, they weren't going to be able to support the program and were able to coordinate with our state leadership. And it served the program very, very well. So I think we have a little bit to be desired still in that space to get agencies the support that they need 100%.   Carol: So what has been your favorite thing to work on or accomplishment in your role? And Katie, I'm going to kick that to you to start us off.   Katie: Well, I've really enjoyed my role here with the QM. There's a lot of things that I enjoy, but the task that I've enjoyed the most is really having the ability to dig into the new uniform grant guidance that went into effect October 1st of 2020. For one of the things that I did while doing that was I took the old uniform grant guidance and the new ones and did a side by side where all of the things that were taken out were redlined and all of the things that were added were highlighted, and I'm really excited for that tool to be shared with the agencies right now. That's with RSA to get the stamp of approval, but I've used that tool already to help update all of our things on the website and all the tools that we're sharing with everyone, and I think it's going to be a really helpful tool for the agencies.   Carol: I love that tool, Katie, so much because even when we were down doing to last week and some of the just the nuance pieces that came out, when you're reading it and you go, okay, that language did change. Like there is a slightly nuanced variance to this that I hadn't completely grasped until you see it in the red and the yellow, and it all highlighted up. I mean, it was pretty nice.   Katie: Yeah, they did a lot of plain language changes, which is really evident when you look at the side by side.   Chris: I'll jump in here and tell you what my favorite thing is. And it's when we were working with a state intensively and, you know, we've been working with them for a long time, and you get to know them really well and you understand their environment and how things work, and they come to you and say something really profound, like, I was watching this training the other day and they got this wrong, and they got this wrong and they got this wrong. It is like a proud parent moment. When you go, they understand what the program is supposed to be doing, and they understand when other people not necessarily are getting it wrong, but mostly they're able to recognize what's not absolutely correct. And it just makes you feel like, oh, we have come so far.   Carol: It's like fly, little bird, you're flying.   Chris: Yes.   Allison: That's probably one of my favorite parts too, Chris, is the state work that we've done and how you get to know these state people. There's so many amazing VR staff across the country, and their hearts are all in the right place, and they want to do good. That's what I've enjoyed is getting to know these people better, broadening my network as well because I learn from them. But just being that resource I do like, I'm one of those weird people that likes digging into the laws and regs and finding where is that gray, vague area that we can interpret a little better. So part of the TA work, you know, really digging into some of the laws and some regulatory guidance I've enjoyed as well.   Carol: I have a story I love to share. I was having a breakdown probably a year ago, Sarah's laughing at me, I had a breakdown. You know, you're providing TA to state you're so ingrained with them, especially when they have a corrective action plan, you feel like you're part of them. I always say we, you know, when we're talking because I feel like I'm part of their team and we've been working on a particular piece of it, and nothing that we sent in was anything RSA wanted. All I knew was that this was not what they wanted, but we couldn't exactly figure out what they wanted. And it was driving me crazy. And I'd called Sarah and I said, I think I have to quit being a TA provider because I suck at this. I'm not able to help them. I haven't been able to figure this out. I am done, and I went to bed that night. I actually was on site with another state and I woke up at two in the morning and I do my best thinking as I'm sleeping. It's so weird. I've done it my whole career. I wake up in the middle of the night and have an idea. I woke up at two in the morning. I'm like, oh, I know what they're talking about. And I got up and I typed, I typed for like three hours and then got up for the day and got ready for the other state. But exactly what was needed was that, I mean, when we ended up meeting with the state and then they met with RSA, and that was the thing. It was the thing that was needed to get accomplished. And I felt super proud that we could kind of like, figure it out. It took a while. I almost quit, but, we got there in the end.   Sarah: You know, being in the final year of the grant, everybody's asking the question, what comes next? And of course we don't know what comes next. But I think my favorite part is looking back and building the relationships. So kind of touching on what all of you all have said. Relationships are important to me. Building the trust we are learning alongside of them just like they are. I always say there's no top of the mountain that any of us are ever going to reach when we've arrived. It's a daily learning process, but the program financially is so complex and trying to take those federal requirements And each of the state's requirements, which we've acknowledged already are all different, and bring that together in the center. And there's never been a resource to help agencies get down in the weeds, look at their systems, look at their processes, and help them navigate through that. And so just having something to offer and having directors send an SOS text at 9:00 at night, or we've talked to directors who have been in tears or excited because something really great has happened, and they want to share the success. It's all of that. Just being able to provide that valuable resource and support them along the way has been very rewarding for me. I know, and you all, but especially I think for the States.   Carol: So if you had a crystal ball, what would you predict regarding the financial state of the VR program over the next three years? And Chris, you get to start us on that lovely prediction.   Chris: Okay. Well, since I don't have a crystal ball, I think Sarah touched on this a little bit earlier. So for several years, the message from RSA and from Congress has been to spend, spend, spend. And so there's been a lot of changes in all the agencies to be able to spend more, to spend quicker, to do everything quicker and faster. And I think the spending is catching up. And I think that it might go too far. Like Sarah mentioned, the pendulum is going the other way, and I don't think the fiscal forecasting is robust enough to be able to predict when it's going to get hard. And since most directors do not come from a fiscal background, most directors come with the VR heart that you know is what a counselor has, paying attention to that. Fiscal forecasting is going to be a critical, critical point. And I know that most states are not doing it right. So that's my prediction. More people are going to be reaching out asking for fiscal forecasting and understanding how to look at this program in the future.   Sarah: And I think to tack on to that, I think we're going to see new technology and new resources emerge that will assist our agencies. Again, like Carol said earlier, some days it feels like we have our big chief tablet out and we're still doing things old school. And I think the only direction to go is up. So I think we're going to see some new resources, hopefully in the technology world develop, that will assist our agencies so that their focus can remain on the customers where it belongs.   Allison: And I would have to say ditto to both of that, especially the fiscal forecasting and the pendulum swinging the other way. And a lot of states considering order selection or going into order selection. But one of the things that pops in my mind that might happen over the next three years is reauthorization of WIOA. I know the discussions are happening with Congress right now, and if that implementation happens, you know, what's it going to look like? Because ten years ago when WIOA was passed, it was a huge impact on VR. And it still is. I mean, we're still challenged with trying to get everything implemented, trying to spend the minimum of our 15% on Pre-ETS. There's just so many things that we're still working on through. So very interested to see where that's going to go.   Carol: And I definitely think like nothing ever stays the same. So we always think like we're going to get to the place and it's just going to be even flow, like it's all going to be cool. We don't really have to pay a lot of attention, and I don't think that's ever going to be the state of the VR program. Like it's going to constantly need people paying attention. Whether the pendulum is one way and we have loads of money or it's the other way and we have no money now, like we have to somehow try to like even this out with the fiscal forecasting and all the things you're doing. But if you think you're going to get to the place where like, oh, I've reached it, Nirvana, it's all great. That's never going to be like this job takes constant attention to detail and what is happening. And so it is always going to be work. It's going to take a lot of effort from a lot of people. And as all the new people keep coming and going, figuring that out for the team so that you can sustain the practices and things that you have that help you to understand what's going on.   Katie: Yeah, I would just agree with everything that everyone already said. One of the big pushes that was brought up at CSAVR, is technology, and I think it is going to be interesting to see what kind of technology is introduced in the next three years that's going to help assist our programs.   Carol: So what is your best piece of advice for our listeners? And I'll let anybody open that one up.   Allison: I'm going to say you need to have a deep bench of leaders who are adverse in the financial requirements, maybe incorporating fiscal training for all staff on an annual basis, whether that's just refreshers or making sure new folks being hired understand all the requirements. But fiscal needs to be part of your ongoing training with staff. It's just critical.   Carol: I'd say, for directors coming in, I know the tendency is to want to be like, I have to know everything. I'm the director, I need to know all things. And even when you don't know the things, you pretend, you know the things. Don't pretend you know the things you don't know. Like you need to be humble and figure it out and learn and be willing to learn. For a lot of folks that are growing up in the VR system, having that sort of physical part of your brain, it may not be completely there. You're like, I went into VR because I didn't want to do math, and now you're in charge of, you know, $300 million in a program. And so you've got to just continue to learn and chip away and figure out how you can gain that really strong understanding, because you cannot just hand that off to some other group and think someone's managing that for you, because the buck really does stop with you in the end. As far as the responsibility over the control and allocation of the VR funds. So please keep learning, as Allison said, and be open and be humble when you don't know things and ask.   Sarah: There's a song by the Beatles called With a Little Help from My Friends. Everybody needs a Little help from time to time. And I know over the years we've worked with most of the agencies, but there are some that we haven't, and I've always assumed they're good. They don't need us. They're fine. It's not always necessarily the case. So acknowledging if I pick up a phone and call a peer or a fellow director, or hopefully the TAC continued to exist beyond this grant cycle. Reaching out and asking for help is okay, and it's encouraged.   Katie: Yeah, mine will be through the lens of policy and procedure. That's where I keep hitting. That's my passion on this QM team. We have a ton of resources available, and if you're struggling, you're looking at that table of contents saying, I can't do this. Reach out, give us a call. We can help you with prompting questions just to get the thought process going. And you can do it. It's going to be okay.   Chris: Ok, my piece of advice is to make connections. And I think everybody has kind of said that in their own way. But make those connections so that you have people you can reach out to and ask questions of whether it's us at the TA center, other states, other fiscal people. You need to be able to ask, how do you do this? What do you think of this idea that I have? How would you handle this? I mean, being able to have that connection and that type of conversation is critical 100%.   Carol: Well, I sure appreciate you all. And while we're still around, all our listeners can still connect with us. And we do have a QM fiscal email address. I will spell out for you. It is QM f I s c a l at v r t a c-qm.org. So qmfiscal@vrtac-qm.org. So please do reach out. We still are around for a little while and we can be your phone a friend. So thanks for joining me today guys I really appreciate it.   Chris: Thank you Carol. This was great.   Allison: Thanks for having Us.   Sarah: Thank you.   Katie: Thanks.   {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Many of our property management business owner clients are focused on hiring or restructuring their teams right now. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the most important parts of the hiring process and offer a little bit of “tough love.” You'll Learn [04:39] 1. Finding the right person for the role [11:04] 2. The importance of training your new hire [24:41] 3. Implementing accountability for your team [30:20] Review: what does the initial training period look like? Tweetables “We need to be clear on what results we're expecting.” “Any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes.” “You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.” “If you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet.  [00:00:09] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently than you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners, and their businesses. [00:00:53] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:11] Sarah: All right. [00:01:11] Let's do it. Before we do anything, we have an announcement for those of you that have not yet heard. Our foster dog Hans has been officially adopted. So we didn't do a podcast since he was adopted. So this is our first podcast that we don't have Hans kind of hanging out in the background. And I miss his little face, but he has an amazing family. [00:01:32] Jason: I miss Hans. I don't- [00:01:35] Sarah: love him so much.  [00:01:37] Jason: I don't miss him chewing my stuff in my office, but I do miss his little face as well. All right. Yes. Yeah, so he's adopted All right So the topic today and if you want to check that out, you can go to doorgrow.Com right at the top. There's dogs click on that see all our stories. Maynard got adopted. [00:01:55] Sarah: Maynard is adopted. Yeah, he now lives in California.  [00:01:59] Jason: This dog was like on death's door multiple times. Well, many times. Now he's living it up with a wealthy dude.  [00:02:06] Sarah: Who just fell in love with him.  [00:02:07] Jason: Guy in California.  [00:02:08] Sarah: Maynard just captured his heart, loved him so much and wanted to provide him an amazing life, so. [00:02:15] Jason: He's got a new name.  [00:02:16] Sarah: He's Bodhi.  [00:02:17] Jason: Bodhi.  [00:02:18] Sarah: Bodhi. So he's now driving around in a convertible in California. That's one of the pictures they put on there. Oh!  [00:02:25] Jason: All right. So  [00:02:25] Sarah: Maynard has a great life now, too.  [00:02:27] Jason: So you can check that out at doorgrow.com/dogs. All right. So our topic today that we're going to be chatting about you said that it came up a few times in You know this week with some of our clients dealing with some new team members We've got we're doing helping a lot of people with hiring right now. [00:02:45] Sarah: Oh my goodness so many. I built so many DoorGrow Hiring accounts in the last week.  [00:02:49] Jason: Yeah, so we're setting up this hiring mechanism and machine and system so that people can have some consistently good hires. But that brings us to kind of the next challenge. So what have you been hearing?  [00:03:00] Sarah: Okay, so one client asked me, he's about to hire. [00:03:05] He's going through the hiring process. So he doesn't have anybody lined up yet, but he's It's about to start this whole process. And he had asked me, "Hey, what about expectations for when they start when they come on?" And specifically this is a BDM. The second instance of this happening this week is a client who has already hired and his BDM is now about 60 days in. [00:03:31] And he sent me a message yesterday and he said, "Hey, listen, I really need to talk with you before the end of the month. I need to make a decision on my team." So I said, okay, let's. Let's figure out what's going on? And he said "yeah, I'm kind of pissed because my BDM is like 60 days in, and last month he didn't do anything at all. And then this month he started like he hasn't closed anything yet," and by he didn't do anything at all, what he means is he didn't close anything.  [00:04:00] Jason: Okay. Not that he wasn't working. No deals yet.  [00:04:01] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Not that he wasn't working. He was working. And this month now is his 60 day mark and he hasn't closed anything, but he's, you know, making calls and he's starting to, you know, get some things kind of ready and warmed up in the pipeline. [00:04:16] He, he said, "man, should I just let him go? Like, is he just not the right person? I feel like it's 60 days, like, I should see some results at this point."  [00:04:26] Jason: Okay.  [00:04:26] Sarah: So I'd like to, I'd really like to talk about that. And this is going to be, whatever episode this is "Sarah's Tough Love episode." So here it is. [00:04:35] Jason: Got it. Okay, I mean, let's get the basic stuff out of the way, right? First, we need to know that we have the right person. So, we need to know what those expectations are. So, that's where we define that. Usually, we call them R docs, but in this ultimate job description. So, we need to be clear on what we're looking for. [00:04:51] We need to be clear on what results we're expecting. We need to be clear on, you know, what outcomes we're hoping for and they need to be clear on this, right? Like if we're bringing somebody in, they need that clarity. So if there's anyone listening and there's any ambiguity or fuzziness, then you're going to get fuzzy outcomes. [00:05:09] And those aren't good, right? And so there needs to be at least, and you need to be on the same page. Literally, the way we do that is with a page called an RDoc. And so you make sure you're on the same page. And all those young Gen Z people, notice how I used the word literally, correctly like it's an actual page. [00:05:28] Sarah: I was just thinking that.  [00:05:29] Jason: Stop saying the word literally. It drives me fucking nuts. So, all right.  [00:05:33] Sarah: Literally.  [00:05:34] Jason: I literally, like if, yeah, nobody's confused about it being figurative, then don't, you don't need to say the word.  [00:05:41] Sarah: I literally died yesterday when I read that text.  [00:05:43] Jason: No, you would be dead. [00:05:45] You would actually be dead. All right. So, Now the next piece is we need to make sure we've got a person that fits that job description, right? They actually are the right personality. Well, let's talk about the three fits real quick. They have to match all three or they're not going to be a good BDM. [00:06:01] Sarah: Or it's never going to work out. And it doesn't matter if it's a BDM, an operator, a property manager, an assistant, a maintenance coordinator. It doesn't, name the role, doesn't matter.  [00:06:10] Jason: So, first, they have to be the right personality for the job or they'll never be great at it. They'll never be motivated to do it. [00:06:18] You bring in somebody to be a BDM, for example, and they're not the right personality to go out and want to talk to people and connect with people and network and that's not fun for them, they're always going to resist it. They're going to avoid it. They're going to do a bunch of time wasting stupid activities They're going to train everything else other than what really should be done, which is to go connect with people and have conversations. So they're going to be like "well I'm trying some marketing thing and i'm trying this thing and like and-"  [00:06:47] Sarah: "I sent 5,000 emails I don't know why none of them came back." [00:06:51] Jason: "We did direct mail to, like, 7,000 owners." [00:06:56] Sarah: I've heard that and it's because this is a true example. "I sent 5,000 emails." [00:07:00] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Sarah: So essentially you did nothing. That's great. Right. Good to know.  [00:07:05] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:05] Sarah: Thank you.  [00:07:06] Jason: Lots of emails, right? So. So,  [00:07:09] Sarah: you know how many junk emails we get in a day? What happens when you get junk email? [00:07:13] Do you open it? Do you read it? Do you respond to it? No. That's what you just did to somebody else.  [00:07:19] Jason: Yeah. It lacks depth. All right. So we can get into tactics later, but they need to match the personality for the role. Which means they would love succeeding at this. They would love doing it. They would enjoy it. [00:07:32] They get some fulfillment out of it. And so that's personality fit. They need to be the right the right culture fit, which means they need to actually believe in your business and in you and in the product. They have to believe in this. You cannot sell effectively if you lack belief. And that goes for everybody on the team. [00:07:53] Like, if your operator isn't a believer in you or the business, they're not going to want or care to make sure that it runs well for you. If your executive assistant isn't, you know, a believer in you or shares your values, they're never going to do things in a way that makes you feel safe or that you trust them. [00:08:09] Cultural fit means they do it the way that you would want it done, that they share your values. The big clue we talked about this at our last jumpstart event where we had clients and somebody had a team member. And I just asked, I said, well, do you feel better when they're around? [00:08:25] Do you feel calmer when they're around? And they were like, no, I'm like, yeah, then they got to go.  [00:08:30] Sarah: He said, oh, well, a lot of our communication we do over the phone because that's better.  [00:08:36] Jason: Because there's such a high degree of conflict.  [00:08:37] Sarah: Jason says, better than what? Awful?  [00:08:40] Jason: Yeah, and then he laughed. [00:08:41] Everybody laughed in the group and he was like, well, yeah.  [00:08:44] Sarah: Well, I can't talk to this person in person. I can't be around them. Because when we're around each other, there's too much conflict. It's just too, it gets, yeah, it gets too feisty. Well, that's not good.  [00:08:55] Jason: Yeah, that means that person's not a good fit for that person for that particular client. [00:09:00] Sarah: And let's be clear. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with this particular person. No, it doesn't make them a bad person It doesn't mean, you know, all the they'll never succeed No, it just means that they are better suited in a different environment That's all. It means not everybody like when you're dating, you don't want to date everybody. You want to date people that you like generally and there are certain people that you like and there are certain people that you just don't mesh well. The businesses work the same way.  [00:09:31] Jason: Yeah. They've got to match your values. Because regardless you get somebody that's amazing BDM, for example, or an amazing operator for your business, they don't share your values, you'll never trust them. Like you just can't. And then the third fit is skill fit. So they have to have the skill or the ability or the intellectual capacity to learn and develop this skill quickly. And so if they don't, then you'll invest a bunch of energy into trying to train them and they're just too stupid to get it. [00:10:01] Or they just can't figure it out or maybe you hire somebody and they've got bad habits or they can't adapt. So they need to have that skill fit. They got to be all three or they're not going to be a good fit. So let's assume if we've helped them with DoorGrow Hiring, we focus on these three fits. [00:10:18] We have a whole hiring mechanism. Make sure these generally go well.  [00:10:22] Sarah: Yeah. So I can tell you, I don't think that's any of those are the problem.  [00:10:26] Jason: This person. Yeah. So in these situations, the person is the right fit. Yeah, usually that's the problem is they're not even getting the right person. [00:10:33] Most of y'all doing hiring, you're playing Russian roulette hiring and you don't have good fits.  [00:10:38] Sarah: Or it's, oh, this person had the experience and they came from such and such a Yeah, we hear that all the time.  [00:10:43] Jason: Yeah. Well, they're so experienced, and you feel uncomfortable around them and you don't trust them. [00:10:50] Yeah. So let's assume that, you know, with our clients, we've helped them find people that match the three fits. So now we're past that hurdle, that's very typical for most people, well, now, if it's not them, then who is it?  [00:11:04] Sarah: Okay. So here's where the tough love comes is. This is always my question. [00:11:08] And I'm very, very particular about what happens when you hire someone. You cannot ever hire somebody and just say, "now my problems are solved." They're not solved yet. I know it feels like you've gotten through it and now things are better and you should just be able to rely on that person. You're not there yet. [00:11:33] You will be. But you're just not, you're getting closer. You're just not fully there yet. And this is what happens a lot of times and they go, "Oh, okay, so I know I need to train this person and then I'll probably train them for like a week or two and then they'll just be good." [00:11:48] Absolutely not. So especially with a new person and it doesn't matter. Here's the other thing that I hear all the time, especially when somebody has the experience. Oh, well, you know, they have a sales background. They know how to sell. Great. They don't know how to sell for you. They don't know how to sell what you've got. [00:12:05] They don't know how to sell your values and your mission. They don't know how to sell that yet. They don't quite know. So you can take any salesperson in the universe and plug them into your business. Do they have the skill? Yes. Do they have the experience? Of course, but they still have to be trained. So having the experience does not mean "Oh, I don't have to train them," or, "oh, I don't have to train them as much." [00:12:32] You still have to train them a lot. There is a lot of training. And I hate to break it to you, but your life when you hire gets worse. So your life is bad, you know you need to hire, then you hire somebody, your life is now worse for a short period of time. The reason being is everything that you were doing, you still have to do it, and in addition, you now have to train somebody. So nothing has changed except that you just added another responsibility for yourself for the next 30 to 90 days. And there is no way around that with hiring. So if you hire and you fail the train, it is probably not going to work out. They will not get the results. [00:13:16] They will be frustrated. You will be frustrated. And at some point, you will get back into the cycle of, "Oh, well, now I guess I have to hire again." And then you live in hell forever. And it's not a good place to be.  [00:13:31] Jason: Yeah, so unless you hire somebody that is an amazing 'who,' right? There's a book called Who Not How it's a great book. [00:13:40] Unless you hire an amazing 'who,' like you bring in somebody, they're a sales trainer and an expert closer, and they've had tons of success and they can teach other people's sales, then I think, in any role, you have to assume you need an assumption that they're going to do it wrong. You have to start with that foundational assumption that they're going to do everything wrong. [00:14:01] If I hired an operator cold, they're doing it wrong, that I need them to install my operational system. If they are coming in as a salesperson in the business, I know they've been trained poorly because most sales training out there doesn't work anymore. There's a new model and a new way of selling and all the old stuff. [00:14:20] All the salesy guys that are sales trainers and sales coaches largely out there that push. Doesn't work anymore. It's outdated. And we don't push that stuff at DoorGrow. We've had to shift how we sell and we teach clients differently, even in the last year. And so my assumption is that they're going to do it wrong, but. [00:14:40] What I do assume is if they've done it well before, they have the ability to learn it. They have the ability to be a good operator. They have the ability to be a good BDM. But there needs to, you can't assume because they have done it before, that you're just going to rely on them to do it.  [00:14:56] Sarah: It's not plug and play. [00:14:58] "I hired them now they're just going to go do it and they're going to sell a bunch of stuff for me." No.  [00:15:02] Jason: Right. You're always going to be disappointed with most everybody if you come in with this assumption and they're going to feel unsupported and untrained and frustrated.  [00:15:13] Sarah: And they will inevitably either quit or get fired.  [00:15:16] Jason: Yeah, they'll go find a better situation.  [00:15:18] Sarah: No matter what, it will not work out. So here's a good moment to talk about Vendoroo.  [00:15:25] Jason: We'll talk in just a minute. We're going to talk about the onboarding and then some of the next steps that are really important. But quick word from our sponsor. If you're tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination, meet Vendoroo, your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish. Triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection, and coordination built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations, where every dollar is accounted for, and every task is handled with unmatched reliability Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at vendoroo.ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. Okay. So check them out.  [00:16:10] Sarah: Speaking of doing things right, let's talk about what happens after you hire somebody.  [00:16:15] Jason: So the next step after you hire it, it has to be onboarding. There needs to be a good transition of bringing somebody out from the wild, this untrained wild creature, getting them to be something that is going to work inside of your business and fit you and fit what you want. [00:16:33] It's onboarding.  [00:16:34] Sarah: And if you skip onboarding or if you don't have a very solid onboarding and training process, it's going to cause just so much friction because I'm sure that you can think back to a previous job that you've had back when we all had job jobs, right? Have you ever just been hired and then kind of just, it's almost like train yourself or figure it out or, well, "I'm going to train you a little bit and then the rest is up to you. Well, what do you mean? I trained you for a whole day. Now I'm done." [00:17:06] "Oh, okay. So that's it. That's all the support I'm going to get. All right."  [00:17:10] have you ever been hired and then you don't even truly know what you're supposed to do? I don't know. I'm supposed to sell stuff.  [00:17:16] Jason: So here's the challenge. Here's the challenge with this with entrepreneurs, I've been thrown into job situations where there was terrible onboarding, terrible training, but I'm an entrepreneur personality type. [00:17:27] I then innovated, figured it out. And in some situations where at a job I then quickly was put into leadership and sort of managing others. But I had initiative. I had drive, like I had adaptability and I find entrepreneurs are incredibly adaptable and they make the mistake of assuming that everybody else is like them and they're not, they're like, "well, I would just figure it out and I would just ask enough questions. And if I didn't know something, I would just like, and so you can't assume that everybody is like you, if they were like you, they wouldn't work for you. How many of you would go work for somebody now? Like, you're unemployable. Like, let's be real. You would suck as an employee, probably, right? I'm unemployable at this point. [00:18:10] I'm not going to like sit around and let somebody just tell me what to do all the time and whatever. Right. But they're not the same as you. And if they were, then they might just, you know, start a business and leave your business. Right. So they're willing, if they're willing to work for you, you need to assume that they are not the same as you and that they need to be guided. They need support. Now that doesn't mean they can't learn or they're not adaptable. That's the skill fit Don't make the assumption that they'll just wing it and figure it all out unless they're just incredibly driven and incredibly patient And they're really a strong believer in you. [00:18:45] Some of them may do that, but you don't want to lose a good person simply because they feel like you don't care or you're not invested.  [00:18:52] Sarah: So this is There's so much time that goes into hiring and this is why I say don't waste the time that you've spent trying to find the right person and screening applications and interviewing and you put a whole bunch of time and probably effort into this and now you found the person, don't waste that opportunity. [00:19:18] So you need to onboard them properly. And what does that mean? We need to make sure that they have access to all of the systems that they're going to need. And that they know all of the systems that they're going to need. So, oh, what are the tools that I use? And then, do I know how to access it? And, do I know how to use it? [00:19:36] Right? Don't just assume that they'll figure out, Oh, well, this is how I use this phone system. Train them on it. Just show them that. So, there's got to be training for those sorts of things. If they're in sales, then, well, How do I sell? How do I reach people? What am I doing? Am I just doing the fit call, figuring that out? [00:20:00] Am I doing the full pitch? Am I closing? Am I setting them up for you and then you're going to close? What exactly am I doing? So train them on every single thing that they need to know. And I know this sounds so silly, but most people do not do this. So, what do I say? What do I do? Do I have a script? Do I just make it up? [00:20:22] Where do I find people? Am I in the office? Am I driving around? Am I, like, meeting people at events? What am I supposed to be doing all day? Because I'm brand new and I know nothing. So I'm completely reliant upon you to tell me what to do. So if they don't know, don't assume that they're just going to go and figure it out for you. [00:20:44] You have to show them and they have to shadow you. So for the first 90 days, this is all training. So when you hire any person, now some of them will pick it up a little bit quicker and some of them will take the full 90 days and either way it's all right. But just in your head, tell yourself it's going to take the full 90 days, right? [00:21:07] So in that 90 days. With any position, but especially in sales, don't expect them to come in and then just start selling. Oh, wow, they closed a bunch of deals. That was awesome. That's so cool. So there's kind of a ramp up period in every position, but certainly in sales. So shadowing is very important here. [00:21:31] They need to be all over you. All the time. So you need to meet with them every day.  [00:21:40] Jason: Or whoever is the person they're learning from. Sometimes it's not going to be you, eventually. In the beginning, it's always you, right? Which leads us to, like, availability and access is huge in the beginning. Like, if a team member doesn't have access to you, or you are unavailable because you're so busy. [00:21:58] They're going to feel stuck. They're going to feel unsupported. They're going to feel fearful in what they're doing. And so they need to have availability. This morning, I got a phone call. Like a call came in through Telegram. She called me and she's like, "Hey, I'm supposed to do a triage call right now? I have a scheduled appointment, and I'm trying to load Zoom and it's saying, it's waiting for the host. And I'm supposed to be the host." And I said, Then just call them, like pick up the phone, just call them. It's a quick call anyway, but it probably has to do with maybe you're not logged in or you click the link somewhere else and it doesn't realize you're logged in. [00:22:31] It happens to me sometimes. And she said, okay, yeah, I'll just call them. You know, if she were in that situation, this is her first triage call and she's like totally stuck and I'm like unavailable and she's freaking out, then she's going to feel, you know, people go through all sorts of emotions like anger, shame, guilt, fear, like, you know, stuff like this. And so we don't want to put our team members on this emotional rollercoaster of discomfort when everything's uncertain in the beginning. So that's important. Once we get through and the onboarding period, my general rule for onboarding is 90 days, like you said, then the first the first 30, I'm usually meeting with them maybe for an hour a day and I'm highly available.  [00:23:12] Sarah: Every day. [00:23:13] Jason: Yeah. [00:23:14] Sarah: Every day.  [00:23:15] Jason: That's usually the goal. And then after that, I might the next month, maybe it's a shorter time period every day if I'm over like consistently training them like a BDM especially. But otherwise, it might be that we start backing it off to maybe meeting weekly. And then depending on the role of whether or not I'm their supervisor directly, or if they're kind of owning a piece of the business, I then might back it off in the last month or eventually for the future to meet with them monthly to support them or whatnot. Like you kind of gradually step it down and it'll be obvious because you'll be getting on calls with them and like, Hey, what else should we talk about? What else do you need to know? What other questions you have or hey, I want to make sure you know this and you're going to start to run out of ideas. And they're going to start to not need you as much. And so then it's pretty obvious. Well, okay, then I guess we'll end this early. And that's a clue. Well, maybe we don't need to meet as often now. And they'll let you know. You know, do you think we need to keep meeting all the time like this? Like, well, it is helpful, but I don't know that we need an hour, maybe 30 minutes. Okay, cool. If we could just meet 15 minutes each day so I can get unstuck on a few things. Awesome. Right. So I meet with my assistant every day for a short amount of time. [00:24:26] But they're directly responsible to help and support me on things as an operator, like you run our weekly meeting and our daily huddles. Right? And so there's different things like there's sort of a cadence of structure, even regardless. So. I think after we get through onboarding and you've got good access, good availability, they feel supported and they're succeeding, they need to be getting results. [00:24:50] So I think the next step in my mind is there needs to be accountability. So if you're letting somebody just run and it's 60 days in and they are not succeeding or getting results, like cool, how many calls has the BDM made? "I don't know." Okay. How, like, how often have you met with them? "Well, you know, not often." If there's no part of meeting with them is to create accountability. [00:25:13] Like, Hey, what are you working on today? What do you feel like is next? What are you going to be doing? And to make sure that you're guiding them towards what they should be working on. So accountability means, you know, metrics if they're a bDM.  [00:25:26] Sarah: You need to know the metrics.  [00:25:28] Jason: How many networking events have they gone to in the last week? [00:25:31] How many phone calls and outreach have they made to potential referral partners or real estate agents? How many investors have they reached out or called? Are they on top of all of the follow up tasks and deals that are in the CRM? Do you have a CRM, right? Like there needs to be accountability. So there's a record. [00:25:50] Are they keeping notes? Are they, are the calls recorded? Can you listen to their calls to help them improve? Like if there's no transparency or accountability, there's almost no likelihood that they're going to succeed. Like it's because they're not being watched. So, basically, you're sending the signal, it doesn't matter. [00:26:08] You might get somebody that's an amazing self starter.  [00:26:11] Sarah: Go figure it out. Well, shit, I don't know. I guess I'll just make it up. But then when they make a decision and now their decision is different than your decision, now, you didn't tell them what to do. They just made something up and now you're not happy with the results. [00:26:28] Jason: Yeah, and they're lacking leadership and if they're lacking in your jobs to be the leader and they're lacking leadership, then they have no accountability and they have no, there's no transparency or visibility in what they're doing. You won't know. If what they're doing is working or not working. And so they'll just keep doing what's not working. [00:26:48] Because if they still get paid either way, that's a bad situation for most team members. Most team members will continue to get paid whether or not they're really performing at an exceptional level or a decent level. And with a BDM, their compensation should be directly connected to getting results, so they should really want it. [00:27:06] But if there's no accountability or transparency in the beginning, They're probably going to do a lot of stuff that isn't working and they're going to be frustrated and they  [00:27:15] Sarah: know why it's not working  [00:27:17] Jason: Yeah,  [00:27:18] Sarah: they'll come to you and say hey like I'm doing what you told me to do. You told me to make all these calls I mean all these calls. It's not working.  [00:27:26] Jason: And this is one of the ways in which DoorGrow can assist. [00:27:29] We can assist with this, right? Like they can show up to our Wednesday coaching call if they're a BDM focusing on growth. And the BDM can come to the call and say, Hey, I'm trying to do this and I'm getting this result. It's not the outcome I'm looking for. It's not working. Cool. Maybe you need to change this. [00:27:44] Or how are you saying it? Or what are you doing? Or could you send us a call recording? So all of these things that we teach, we know work. They can work. If it's not working, then it's obvious that it must be what they're doing. They're not doing it correct. They're doing it maybe in the wrong way or maybe they're not saying the right things or maybe their tone is off or maybe They are turning people off and they sound like a telemarketer or they're creating the sales ick or the sales resistance in people by how they're approaching people and these are easy changes These are little things that are very easy to tweak or change. [00:28:22] I mean just listening to one sales call from somebody, I can give them a lot of feedback and it's like they grow so much faster and quicker. And that's one way to add some visibility or accountability into the equation. But as a business owner, you need to know their metrics. They need to have metrics and be accountable for that, right? [00:28:40] They need to know what are the leading actions that I need to be taking that are going to get the business development results? What are the daily activities that I need to be doing in order to succeed? So that's my take  [00:28:53] Sarah: for sure. And I love listening to the call recordings because then sometimes when you're in the moment and this happens to all of us, sometimes when you're in the moment, you have a certain perception of how things went and then when you go back and you listen to it later, you'll catch something that you weren't aware of in that moment. [00:29:14] So maybe it's something that they said, maybe it's something that you said, maybe you. Didn't explain something the way that they understood it, but you'll hear things that you may have missed in the moment and Especially with salespeople, this is a training opportunity. So a lot of times people go "what am I supposed to train them on? Like they know how to use the CRM? they know how to use the phone system. They know what to do. They got to just go do it." Okay? Well Are we honing in skills? Are we improving things? Or are we just saying like, "Go do it! Go make a thousand calls this week!: Okay, well, if I make a thousand shitty calls  [00:29:53] Jason: Yeah, you're just wasting energy and you're wasting your leads or your opportunities. [00:29:58] Sarah: So there's always this fine tuning that we have to do. And very rarely are people able to do it for themselves. Sometimes they can go back and listen to a call recording and then go, Oh, you know what? I'm going to improve that. But a lot of times it's really good to have two people listening to the call recording for that reason. [00:30:20] And then the last thing that I do want to talk about is what does the 30, 60, 90 day period look like? So I always tell people in their first 30 days, this is nothing but training. This is deep training, you really do need to be meeting with them every day, not when it's convenient, not when you have time, not, "oh, well, I skipped that day because this happened." [00:30:42] Every single day, every day, they need to have the correct resources, the correct knowledge, the right support, the questions need to be answered, you need to be available to them. They need to have all of this because they're brand new. So a lot of times what happens is people hire somebody and it's like a little baby bird and then they push the baby bird out of the nest. [00:31:08] The bird can't fly yet because you didn't even teach it what its wings are, right? So we can't do that yet. So in the first 30 days, really expect nothing. Really, they just need to be training. If they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome. Great! I mean, they should be doing the activities. [00:31:27] Jason: I expect work.  [00:31:28] Sarah: Yes,  [00:31:29] Jason: I expect to actually and work like if it's to make calls, I expect them in like a BDM should be making some outbound outreach and calls right away.  [00:31:39] Sarah: Absolutely.  [00:31:40] Jason: Otherwise, how are you going to know that  [00:31:41] Sarah: if it's going to, yeah,  [00:31:43] Jason: they shouldn't just be like, just learning. So it's like, I want to get them on the phone and get them making calls. [00:31:47] Sarah: No, but in sales, let's be really clear here. Training. This is hands on training. This is like trying to say, "Hey, I need to go learn how to drive a car. But I'm never actually going to get in the car. I'm going to meet with you on Zoom or I'm going to sit with you and you're going to tell me about how to drive a car." [00:32:03] No, honey, you gotta go get in the car. So, yes, you have to actually be doing it, doing the activities.  [00:32:09] That is training.  [00:32:10] Jason: There's no amount of manuals or videos you could read or watch that would teach you how to drive a car. You have to drive the car.  [00:32:17] Sarah: Yes. So, if they close something in their first 30 days, that's awesome, that's gravy, that's a bonus. [00:32:23] But sometimes people go, "oh man, it's been 30 days and I haven't closed anything. Like, man, they must suck." They're new. They're learning so much and when you implement a new thing, you're probably not going to be very good at it. Especially a new strategy or a new way of doing sales because the way that we teach our clients to sell is different. [00:32:43] It's different. We're not hardcore closing everybody. We're not doing that. So it's, everything is different. They don't have their bearings yet. They don't even have their footing and their foundations, right? So 30 days, if they close something, that's great. But I still, I want them to be training and I want them to be doing some sort of, you know, whatever it's going to be. [00:33:04] If you have them doing events or presentations or calls or a mixture of all of them, great.  [00:33:10] Jason: There should be progress. You'll see progress. And if that's the thing you don't want to tolerate somebody being in the business for 60 days, 90 days, and you're not seeing progress or action, and you're trying to push them. [00:33:23] If you're having to push somebody to do something. Probably they're not the right personality fit. If you feel unsafe with them doing things, and it makes you uncomfortable, how they're doing things, probably not a culture fit. They're not doing it according to your values. [00:33:36] The "how" they go about doing it is different than you. If they're just not doing the right things, then that's a training issue. Or they're just not intelligent enough to learn the skill. So that's a skill fit. Okay,  [00:33:48] Sarah: so then 60 days I do want to see some progress. They might close something. [00:33:55] They still might not it depends. I can't say yes or no Oh, they should definitely close. I can't you can't say that because everybody has their own time frame, right? And investors sometimes they work on their own time frames. You can't control that but I do want to see I want to feel like things are happening, and I want to feel like, Hey, we've got some stuff in the pipeline, we've got some stuff that I feel like might close. [00:34:20] If you say, Hey, what do you have that's about to close? Do you feel like anybody's close? And they go not really. Oh... [00:34:27] Jason: are they getting appointments? Are there relationships being built? Are there deals now kind of get in the pipeline at some of the earlier stages? Like you should start to see the sales pipeline mature and build. [00:34:37] Sarah: So then 90 days they've been doing that. Now they understand everything. They know what to do. They know how to do it. They've gotten their feet wet. They've now tested things and then also made some improvements. They're like, Oh, well, when I say it like this, it doesn't work. It doesn't resonate. [00:34:53] But if I say it like this, it's better. Oh I have to switch this and this, right? Now you're making those little tweaks, those little improvements. So 90 days, they should be able to close something at this point. And same thing with the pipeline. I need to see the pipeline moving forward. I need to see more being added in the pipeline. [00:35:11] I need to see them further along in different stages in the pipeline. Things need to start kind of really moving forward at this point. And then after the 90 days, Now, you get to push the bird out of the nest, right? Now, you're a baby bird, go push him. You should now have everything that you need to be able to soar, as long as we did our job. [00:35:34] But a lot of times, I get it, it's hard, because you're running a business, and you're an entrepreneur, and you're busy, and it's crazy. And now you want me to train somebody? Yep. Yeah. Because once they are able to do it for you, now you can relax into it. But if we skip the training, what's going to happen is you're going to go, man, they're just not getting me the results. [00:35:55] Or they might get frustrated and go, man, my boss sucks. Like they don't train me on. Anything, and it's just not, it's not a good place here. I know, I'm going to leave because I know that if I don't, then I'll eventually get fired. So regardless, they're going to leave. And then you're going to have to go, God, well now I have to go hire somebody. [00:36:11] And then you're going to hire somebody. And then you're going to be in this whole hiring cycle of hell for the rest of eternity. And that's not a fun place to be. It's not. It's really painful.  [00:36:21] Jason: Yeah, a lot of people wait until they're in pain to hire instead of hiring strategically with a plan or, you know, in advance. [00:36:29] And so once you get to the place where you need a new team member, and then you hire, and now you're going to have to, you're kind of shot in the foot, and you're going to have to like go backwards time wise, like then you're in a worse spot, like that's not the ideal place to be hiring. And then later you'll create more freedom you know, eventually, but yeah, you want to make sure that you are kind of aware of your capacity and starting to like get your hiring systems, get your new hires in place in advance before you need it. [00:37:01] And this is why it's super important to make sure you're making the right decisions in the business. So we have frameworks for how to decide what you need most in the business and frameworks for how to decide what the business needs most. So you're making healthy. financial hiring decisions because making wrong decisions that way can really hurt cash flow and can, you know, especially early in the business can really be dangerous. [00:37:22] So, well, is there anything else you'd say to maybe some of our clients or people that they've gotten a new hire. It's probably a good hire and they need to make sure they're doing their onboarding and taking care of this new hire correctly.  [00:37:36] Sarah: Yeah, get it on your calendar. Don't just say you're going to do it. [00:37:40] It has to be scheduled time where it's dedicated. And also, don't half ass it. Don't be like, oh yeah, I'm going to be on the phone with Joe while I'm like over here. They know. That's not dedicated. That does not feel good. We've all been on the receiving end of something like that. So, don't make people guess. [00:37:59] Don't make them figure it out. It's not going to work out well.  [00:38:03] Jason: Alright. That's our episode for today. So I think that this should be pretty helpful for some of our clients that are getting into new hires And hopefully it was helpful for a lot of you listening if you're struggling with hiring or building your team or systems or profit, all this relates to the people system in your business. You need people, planning, and process and that's our super system. If you're needing some help with this, reach out to DoorGrow and we can take you to a whole nother level by getting helping you get these systems installed and you'll have a business that you actually enjoy being in. So until next time to our mutual growth. [00:38:42] Bye everyone. [00:38:43] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:39:10] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Owning a business of any kind impacts your life and relationships. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts talk about marriage, relationships, and how these things correlate with having a property management business. You'll Learn [02:03] Owning a business impacts your relationships [07:45] You have to be selfish sometimes [11:10] Why people pleasing is harmful [14:13] Masculine and Feminine frames [24:51] Leveling up in business and your relationships Tweetables “In business, you don't want to be the needy, pleasy guy running a property management business, trying to please every tenant, trying to please every business owner.” “I think as a business owner, you, there is part of you that has to be selfish and you have to be comfortable with being selfish because there is a time and a place for it.” “If you do not take care of yourself, you are not going to have energy to then continue to take care of other people.” “Ironically, the more you are trying to please somebody,  the less they value you.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: In business, you don't want to be the needy, pleasy guy running a property management business, trying to please every tenant, trying to please every business owner.  [00:00:08] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:29] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS. Build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull the owners of DoorGrow.  [00:01:11] Now Let's get into the show.  [00:01:14] All right, so today's topic, we're going to chat a little bit about marriage. So let's talk about it. We're going to tell a little bit about marriage. Those that have followed my journey over the years have probably seen that I've been divorced. I've gone through struggles in marriage. I've learned things the hard way. Some of y'all probably been married forever like my parents. I have amazing parents and they were a great example of just loving each other from the beginning forever. [00:01:44] They've been married for, I don't know, like 50 years or something.  [00:01:48] Sarah: Almost. 49.  [00:01:50] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. I think  [00:01:52] Sarah: this year is going to be 47. So they're like going to be 50.  [00:01:55] Jason: I think they got married two years before they had me. So yeah.  [00:01:58] Sarah: They celebrate it though, but they're still in Australia.  [00:02:01] Jason: Yeah. So my parents, they just love each other. [00:02:03] But one of the things that I think it's been coming up a lot, I've been noticing a lot of clients as I go deeper with them and they kind of open up especially the guys like relationships are a struggle. It's a challenge. I think it's difficult. It can be difficult for entrepreneurs. I think it's difficult for the women entrepreneurs because in a lot of ways you have to kind of step into sort of a masculine frame to run a business. And that creates an interesting dynamic in a relationship. And this is in general. Some women out there, maybe you don't want a masculine guy. Maybe you don't want a guy that leads. Maybe you don't want a guy that initiates stuff. Maybe you don't want to be able to let your hair down after work and like have him kind of take the reins and like plan something and take you on a date. I think a lot of women do. A lot of women appreciate that. Even the ones that are running businesses and showing up in a masculine sort of frame and being kind of dominant in leadership and displaying these things, they would like to have somebody else take the lead. Is this accurate do you think or no?  [00:03:03] Sarah: Yeah, well. You think it's different.  [00:03:05] Jason: You've run your own business. [00:03:06] You've been kind of in that frame.  [00:03:08] Sarah: I'm a very masculine woman.  [00:03:11] Jason: Yeah, in some ways I think you've consistently since we've been together.  [00:03:15] Sarah: I look very feminine. I do it's deceiving. Yeah.  [00:03:19] Jason: Yeah, I think since we've been together, you've consistently stepped more and more into your feminine and I've stepped more and more into my masculine I think has kind of been a trend. [00:03:29] Would you say that's accurate?  [00:03:30] Sarah: It could be. I don't know. I think you've probably more recently been focused on that. I can't say, I really cannot say, oh, I've ever been focused on.  [00:03:41] Jason: I don't think you've been focused on it. I just think.  [00:03:44] Sarah: I'm just living life.  [00:03:45] Jason: Yeah, you're just living life and this is the thing. [00:03:48] Sarah: I'm just going about shit, doing my thing.  [00:03:50] Jason: She's not as conscious of it probably because I think this is something that men, if you are the leader and leading, you should be conscious of this. And women, when men are kind of taking that leadership role, women respond to that, and it's natural. Like, I've noticed it in Sarah, she's not even probably super aware of it, but there's behaviors and things that have kind of shifted. [00:04:15] And so, the way it'll show up for a woman in this, in a relationship like that, as a man stepping more into leadership and into his masculine role, she will generally, over time, feel calmer. There'll be probably less fights, probably less explosions, you know, things like this. And the guy will be like letting go of some of the needy, whiny, pleasy, weak behavior that's kind of gross to women. [00:04:39] Does this sound accurate?  [00:04:40] Sarah: That is, yeah, that is gross.  [00:04:42] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:42] Sarah: To me, anyway, I cannot speak for all women.  [00:04:45] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:45] Sarah: To me, it's gross.  [00:04:47] Jason: Ironically, when women are showing up kind of more in a masculine frame, they sometimes bring that out in guys. Like the guys think, Oh no, there's a problem. I got to please more. [00:04:57] And so it kind of creates this weird, gross spiral in relationship. And so, which I've experienced in past relationships. Right. And so the man needs to kind of. shift and lead out of that. And so I've been noticing this in clients. And so, this is something that I've been paying a lot of attention to. [00:05:14] A lot of guys show up in a feminine frame because we've been raised by our moms. Maybe you had a loving mom. She took care of you. Maybe she didn't. And she wasn't really a great mom, maybe but either way, that feminine influence towards pleasing has a strong impact on the male psyche, which puts us into kind of a growing up with kind of a feminine frame. If we don't have a really strong sort of masculine walled stoic father, you know, and there's really great book I would recommend for men that want to kind of eliminate that feminine frame that they're carrying around. [00:05:49] It's called shattering the feminine frame by Jerr, J E R R. It's really hard to find, so you may have to search for it on Google, because if you search for it on Amazon, even though it's there, Amazon won't let you see it. I don't know why. It's super weird. You may not be able to find it. Sometimes searches on some of the books by Jerr don't show up when I search for them. [00:06:11] His main book that he puts out there, I can find, and then I have to go to the author, click on the author name, and then find his other books to find some of these books. I don't, it's really weird, but you might be able to find it through Google.  [00:06:23] Sarah: Maybe it's just you. It could be just you. It'd be an interesting test. [00:06:27] Maybe everybody else, even though.  [00:06:30] Jason: I bought multiple copies of the book and sent them to guys. So Jason gets blocked on everything. He gets himself blocked. I'm a little controversial. I get shadow banned all the time. It was something. I was definitely shadow banned on Twitter. My accounts aren't working, your whole Instagram account. [00:06:45] I have a political account on Instagram that's totally blocked and shut down. Like, I log into it, it blocks everything. I can't do anything. I can't even go to settings to, like, request help to support. Nothing. So, yeah. So, which probably might be why I can't find which probably means my ideas are actually correct. [00:07:04] So since we live in a world of control and censorship nowadays, all right, so that aside, so I think you know, to kill that needy sort of pleasing behavior, I think guys, this is really important. And it's important in business too, because in business, you don't want to be the needy, pleasy guy running a property management business, trying to please every tenant, trying to please every business owner. [00:07:30] And that was something you were very good at not doing in your property management  [00:07:34] Sarah: business. I don't give a shit about that at all. I [00:07:37] Jason: think you're like, what do I want my business to look like? How do I want to show? Yeah. Yeah.  [00:07:42] Sarah: Right. And I think it's, It, part of it is very selfish. And I think as a business owner, you, there is part of you that has to be selfish and you have to be comfortable with being selfish because there is a time and a place for it. [00:07:54] Now I am not sitting here telling you, be only selfish and only think about yourself all the time. No matter what, prioritize you and forget everything else, right? That is not what I'm saying, but there is a time and a place to be selfish and to really think about you. And if you think about it this way, there's a lot of people, like one of my, one of my very good friends in Pennsylvania she will just give and give and give and give to everybody. [00:08:21] She worries about her kids and she worries about her friends and she worries about her family and she worries about, it's like, she's like, so giving and like, I mean, she would literally give you the coat off of her back in the middle of winter if you needed it. I have watched her do it. And that is great. [00:08:42] However, if you do not take care of yourself, you are not going to have energy to then continue to take care of other people. And I tell her that all the time because she's just in this constant exhaustion. Like now it's manifesting physically. Now she's had like, she had health issues. She had like a heart problem. [00:09:02] She had all kinds of issues and it's because she's not prioritizing herself. She will go to do something for herself, but then something else pops up and needs her attention. And she's like, Oh, well, I can't worry about me. Now, I have to worry about this other thing. So there is a time and a place to be selfish, and you must take care of yourself first in order to then serve and take care of other people. [00:09:22] It's like, put on your own oxygen mask before helping other people. Because if you die trying to help your family, well now your family doesn't have you. When you could have just put on your own oxygen mask first. Yes? So there is a time and a place to be selfish. I think in my later years, especially after my, like, my divorce when I was, what was I, 28? [00:09:48] Yeah, I was 28. So, 28, I flipped my entire life upside down. All of it. Everything. I pretty much scrapped it all. Anything that wasn't serving me, anything that was toxic, anything that wasn't good for me, anything that didn't make me feel happy or bring me joy or make me feel loved and cared for, I said, fuck it. [00:10:10] Gone. Gone. So I cut off relationships with my biological father. I ended my marriage. I cut off a lot of friendships. I quit my job. I did all kinds of things. I was like, yeah, this isn't working like, and that was the end of it. But that was very much about, that was for me. I did that for me. [00:10:30] And up until that point, I wasn't really living for me. Yes, I was concerned about myself. I was always trying to take care of myself. But I was also always worried, Oh, well, who needs this? And who needs that? And, oh, you know, this person, you know, is kind of, it's always like in the back of your brain. [00:10:48] And after, after that, I made that change and that after that point was when I started my business, when I started my business, I'm glad that I didn't do this before I had that shift in my life because when I started my business, number one has to be me. If the business makes me miserable, then I'm doing something wrong. [00:11:07] So why do it like that?  [00:11:10] Jason: A lot of people are miserable in their businesses. They like, we see a lot of them. That's why a lot of people come to us. We can turn that around. Ironically, the more you are trying to please somebody, the less they value you. And so if you're like just bending over backwards trying to please tenants, they're going to treat you even more and more like garbage because you're showcasing and demonstrating in your language your behavior everything, "I'm low value." [00:11:37] I'm a doormat. Walk all over me. You might do that with owners. You might be displaying, Hey, I'm low value. I'm available whenever you need me. Your time is so much more important than my time. Interrupt me anytime. Here's my cell phone number. Right? And so by displaying that you're low value, you actually end up being treated worse and being perceived as worse. [00:11:58] And people respect business owners that are leaders and then are able to display strong behavior that they can lean into and that they can trust. You need to have a stronger frame or a more masculine frame if you are the leader of a business. Otherwise, people are not going to really trust, respect, or feel safe with you. [00:12:18] And so I think that Also, when we're in relationship and we're with somebody and I think that this is probably more true of women, a lot of women might throw me some shade for saying this, but as guys, I don't know what the major difference is. Maybe it's testosterone levels, whatever. Maybe it's just in our DNA, but we do not grow up feeling fear. [00:12:41] We just, we don't generally feel afraid of a whole lot of things. Like, most guys would never even think, like, am I safe if I go walk out on the street? Unless they're in a really shitty area, you know? But if I go out for a walk, I'm not concerned about my safety at all. I could roll down my windows and take a nap in my car, parked by the side of the road, and wouldn't even worry. [00:13:03] Women, I didn't realize this until later years, but women from.  [00:13:08] Sarah: Even going like for a walk by myself, no way, I'm taking my pitbull, like  [00:13:12] Jason: Yes.  [00:13:13] Sarah: Or I'm carrying.  [00:13:15] Jason: Right. Or some combination.  [00:13:18] Sarah: Something. There's no, there's no chance. Yeah,  [00:13:21] Jason: I mean even if I'm out of town, for example You'd like you get a little bit more concerned about things and your safety and stuff like that, right? [00:13:30] Sarah: See, I'm the type of person I'm like, I want like a fortress. I want like reinforced concrete like five inch, you know, like, maybe even 11 inch thick, like, walls, I want, like, a moat, I also like some sharks that we don't feed, like, ever, and then, you know, somebody might accidentally fall down. [00:13:49] I've been getting in, like, this is how I'm like, that would make me feel safe. I want like bulletproof glass. Give me the Cybertruck glass just everywhere. Like, that's like, this is what I need. I need like laser beams, like you see in museums. Like motion sensor laser beams that trigger like the SWAT team. [00:14:06] That's what I need, but I've watched way too many horror movies, admittedly, way too many for my own good.  [00:14:13] Jason: So regardless of your gender, masculine and feminine energy is always at play. And, Feminine energy generally is not going to feel safe without masculine energy nearby. [00:14:24] That's just generally how it works. Masculine energy creates that protection and safety. This will be true of your clients. So you'll need to show up somewhat in a masculine frame so that your clients can feel safe. feel safe with you. And that's what they want to buy. They don't want to buy property management, but they want to buy a safety and certainty. [00:14:40] They want to buy peace of mind. And so that certainty that you can display is more of a masculine energy or masculine frame. This is true of women that are in relationships. If they're not getting that from the man that they're with or around them, That sort of masculine frame, they're going to become, a lot of times, they become more nervous, more neurotic. [00:14:59] They're more concerned about things and more fearful. And especially if they have to then step into the masculine frame to take care of the guy that they're with because he's even more needy and pleasy and whatever and feminine than she is, then it's like, it creates this gross sort of I'm your mother type of dynamic, right? [00:15:17] And you don't want to be my mother, right? You don't want to be cleaning up after me and telling me what to do all the time.  [00:15:22] Sarah: I don't want to be anybody's mom.  [00:15:24] Jason: Yeah, exactly.  [00:15:24] Sarah: I am not cut out to be a mom, let's be honest. I'm just not, I'm just not good. Like my mom is the best mom in the world and then like, how do I measure up to that? [00:15:34] Like I can't compete with that.  [00:15:35] Jason: Well, I don't think it's a competition.  [00:15:37] Sarah: Everything is a competition.  [00:15:39] Jason: It's not really. [00:15:39] Sarah: You know nothing about me.  [00:15:41] Jason: It's not really competition. You don't need to compete with your mom, but you can take, you know, some of the good that you've got from her and the stuff that you don't want to apply or we learn from our parents. [00:15:51] We don't want to be like. We don't have to take that. Right. So, you know, I guess the takeaway from this episode maybe is men, check out that book, like step into a little bit more masculine role in your relationships, your wife will be calmer, she'll be more loving, you will definitely get more respect and you'll get more sex if you're showing up in a masculine frame. And it's your responsibility. Stop trying to change her. Stop trying to get her to be something different. Stop wishing she was nicer to you. Stop trying to focus on I need love and I need to please her and do things like that like Show up in a confident leadership position, like plan stuff, plan dates. [00:16:35] We're going on a date this weekend, right? We went on a date last weekend.  [00:16:40] Sarah: Round two.  [00:16:40] Jason: I messed up last weekend. I planned a date. I was so excited and took her out to eat. We went to go to where the date was, we were supposed to go watch a show. And it was closed, like, there was nothing there. And I was like, what? [00:16:54] And I checked and I had the date wrong. I had the date wrong. So what did I do as a leader? I found another date. So I quickly booked tickets, found tickets to a comedy show that was right there, downtown Austin. And then we went to that and we had a good time, right?  [00:17:08] Sarah: Well, that was when I rescued the bird. [00:17:09] Jason: Yes.  [00:17:10] Sarah: So here, let's talk about this. This is how crazy my life is. Jump out of a moving car because my husband wouldn't stop the car.  [00:17:16] Jason: Let's, let me explain this. I'm driving into a parking lot, there is a bird that has landed on my hood and it's just staying on there so I'm like, this is weird and I'm turning into a parking structure and I was barely moving. [00:17:30] I was slowed down or you would have hurt yourself but I'm like, she's like, I'm going to get out and I'm going to take care of the bird and because it had jumped off. And I was like, No.  [00:17:37] Sarah: It didn't. It tried to fly, like, it was on the hood. And it tried to fly a little bit and it, like, barely cleared, like, the roof of the car and I went, Jason, that bird is injured, I'm telling you, it's injured and he's like, okay. [00:17:51] And I'm like, stop the car, and he's like, what? I'm like, no, stop the car. I was like, I am not stopping the car. Yeah, he's like, I'm not stopping.  [00:17:57] Jason: There were, like, homeless people on the street, like, right outside there. Yeah, I know. Ghettos, they probably were all high on drugs, like, it was not a great area. [00:18:06] And she jumps out of the car and I have to then find a parking space because there's nowhere to park and I had to go up seven floors in this parking structure. I'm like, my wife is probably going to be dead by now, right? So I eventually get to the top floor, then I come down, I'm, like, so anxious because I'm, like, I need to protect this woman from her crazy bird saving, like, whatever. [00:18:27] Sarah: And actually, I had this dress on. And my high heels, and I'm running around trying to, like, scoop up. I'm like, it's okay, try to scoop the bird. And the bird, like, it can't really fly. It flew a little bit for, like, a couple feet, and then it, like, sank back down. And I'm like, oh no, it's injured. So I'm, like, chasing the bird, and the bird, like, hops around. [00:18:45] Like, it comes out of the parking garage, and it hops around to the corner. I don't know what's back there. So I'm just following, I'm like, come here, bird. And there's a man in the corner. who I can only think, my guess is, like, coke, I don't know. I don't know what he's doing, it's, I don't know, crack, whatever crack is, it's probably that. [00:19:03] So, I don't know, I'm not a drug expert, I've never been in narcotics, I don't know. But he's, like, in the corner and he's, like, doing, I was, like, okay, I'm just going to, like, not look at what's happening, cause I don't care, I'm just, Hi, I'm just getting the bird, I'm, like, don't, like, sorry don't mind me. [00:19:19] And yeah, he didn't like that. But I did get the bird, and then I didn't know what to do with the bird. So I have the bird now, I'm like, oh, what do I do now? So I was going to walk back to my husband and tell him to get in the car.  [00:19:33] Jason: Yeah, we were seven floors up. You had no idea where I was.  [00:19:36] Sarah: No, I didn't. I was just going to walk around until I found you. [00:19:39] But I had the bird in my hands. And I was going to go back to my husband and then say, like, I guess we have to figure out what to do with this bird. We have a bird now. But this woman, she was on the street and she's like, Oh, hi. She was like, excuse me, do you need help? And I said, I don't know. [00:19:54] Can, do you know what to do with an injured bird? And she said, actually, yes I do. And I said, Oh my God, thank God. Because I didn't know what I was going to do with this bird. And she said, Oh, you have to take it to whatever on earth she said. And she's like, I can do that because I guess she works there or something. [00:20:11] So she's like, oh, I'll take it in tomorrow. She's like if you give me the bird So then she had this whole bird probably ate  [00:20:18] Jason: the bird. She's probably some homeless person that ate the bird.  [00:20:21] Sarah: He was not a homeless person. It was a couple.  [00:20:23] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:24] Sarah: There was a couple they had a dog.  [00:20:26] Jason: Okay, meanwhile, I'm coming down an elevator. [00:20:30] It lets me out on the first floor of this parking structure, does not let me into the parking structure. There's no, like, it just exits the building. So I exit the parking building and it locks me out of the building. So I can't even go back in and I'm like trying to find her. I have no idea where she is. [00:20:49] And so I'm calling her and yeah  [00:20:53] we ended up talking, didn't we?  [00:20:54] Sarah: No, I called you.  [00:20:55] Jason: Yeah, you called me.  [00:20:56] Sarah: Then so the lady takes the bird and now I have no bird, which is great and the bird is safe. And now I'm thinking, okay, let me just, I didn't realize it was as tall. I really did not know that the building was that tall. [00:21:08] So I figured, Oh, there's probably like three levels, whatever. I'll just walk around and find the car. It won't be hard. Well, I'm walking around and I'm realizing, Oh, okay. Well, this just keeps going. Yeah. And you  [00:21:18] Jason: were wearing the worst shoes on the planet.  [00:21:19] Sarah: Worst shoes. I was wearing a  [00:21:21] Jason: Okay. Let me explain this. [00:21:23] They can't see your outfit right now. Sarah looks like sex on wheels. Like, her outfit is hot. Like, this is a hot dress. This is like a form fitting store dress. I bought this for her. She looks really good in this. Sorry. And she's wearing these high heels. [00:21:39] She's wearing these high heels like Louboutin, whatever they're called. And they're like, did I buy you those?  [00:21:46] Sarah: That pair? Yes.  [00:21:48] Jason: Okay. Yeah, I bought her these shoes and they're wicked uncomfortable.  [00:21:51] Sarah: They're so uncomfortable.  [00:21:52] Jason: Like whenever she wears them on a date.  [00:21:53] Sarah: Christian Louboutin, I have to say something about him. [00:21:55] He either hates women or he has no idea what women's feet are like.  [00:21:59] Jason: I don't know, but he's laughing. Or both. He's laughing all the way to the bank, whatever. Because they're not cheap. So, she's wearing these shoes that she can't even walk around in. And you're going to, there's no way she's going to go up seven floors of parking. [00:22:12] Sarah: I was on the third floor.  [00:22:14] Jason: Yeah.  [00:22:15] Sarah: Yeah, I got to the third floor and then I realized, oh, okay, so then I called you.  [00:22:19] Jason: Yeah, and then she eventually finds me. We get. You need to go back up to the car because I didn't grab your purse. Because  [00:22:26] Sarah: he left my purse in the car.  [00:22:28] Jason: Because I should have been psychic and known that she needed me to grab her purse. [00:22:32] Right guys. And so we go back up, but he had to let me back into the building because I was locked out and their thing wouldn't work to let me back in with my parking pass thing. So she comes down to the first floor, opens it up, lets me in. We begin in the elevator, we go back up the top floor. [00:22:47] I'm like, what were you thinking? And she's like, what were you thinking? You didn't grab my purse. You left my purse. I'm like, you're way more important than the purse, woman. And you're like going around crazy homeless people and like trying to save a bird.  [00:23:03] Sarah: It was saved.  [00:23:04] Jason: So  [00:23:05] Sarah: It was saved.  [00:23:06] Jason: Okay, good job. You did it. [00:23:08] Good job. You're like  [00:23:09] Sarah: We've been saving lots of animals.  [00:23:11] Jason: I think there's a Bible verse where Jesus says something or God says something about like your life is worth more than many sparrows or something like that. Yeah. So I don't know. Some of you don't know what the verse is.  [00:23:24] Sarah: I must've missed class that day. [00:23:26] Jason: Yeah, exactly. So anyway, we go up to the car, get this, come back down, we exit that same exit down on the first floor and I'm looking around, I'm like, this is not a great area. No, it was not.  [00:23:37] Sarah: It was bad.  [00:23:37] Jason: There's some rough characters and like, they're walking around and like,  [00:23:41] Sarah: bleh. In fact, we went to the comedy club and one of the comedians, he said, so now I have a bully and he's a homeless man and the same homeless man, he like, hangs out right outside the comedy club and he said, I'm here all the time. [00:23:52] And now the homeless man is like harassing me every single time. And he's like, so now I have a bully who's a homeless man. He's like, what do I do about that?  [00:24:01] Jason: Yeah, this is great. This is great. So  [00:24:05] Sarah: yeah.  [00:24:06] Jason: Yeah. So I may be able to keep Sarah safe from her bird rescuing adventures in the future. We'll see.  [00:24:13] Sarah: Stop the car. [00:24:15] When I tell you to stop, just stop the car.  [00:24:16] Jason: You still would have gotten out. I didn't want you to get out. We could have come back.  [00:24:20] Sarah: Oh, no. It could have died in the meantime. What if it went in the street? It tried to go in the street. I had to stop it.  [00:24:27] Jason: All right. I would rather a little bird die than my wife. [00:24:31] Sarah: So that's okay. Yeah. But I don't feel like I feel like there's a third option.  [00:24:36] Jason: Men, you know what I'm thinking right now? You know.  [00:24:40] Sarah: They're like, what is wrong with her?  [00:24:42] Jason: They don't think what's wrong with it. They just go, that's what women do. Like, and yeah, and guys understand. So.  [00:24:49] Sarah: We have to save things. [00:24:51] Jason: Okay, so, should we wrap this up? Anything else we should have? I didn't know we were going into this whole date, but I have a date planned for this weekend. It's the one that I thought had been the previous weekend. So we're, I'm taking her out again, but men plan some dates, show some leadership. Don't wait till she asks you to do things. [00:25:10] Try and Be proactive and find ways to do things before she asks you right. And if she's asked you to do things multiple times, you probably are being a lazy bum. Comfort ease and that's feminine, right? Everybody loves to see a woman in comfort in with her pillows and cushions laying out attractively but guys. They love to see guys at work, like they, man, you do the work. [00:25:34] If you are just sitting around watching football games all day and being a bum, then you are actually in your feminine as a guy and men are men of action. Get some stuff done, do some things, be proactive, improve yourself. So that's all I'll say about that. All right. So yeah. And join our program and get, join our program. [00:25:56] Get a coach like me. That's going to call you out on your BS and help you step into a mass more masculine frame. We will crush it more in business. And I guarantee that you will be getting more respect, more love, more sex, more, all the good stuff. If you show up and if you like show up and be the person you were meant to be. [00:26:16] So, we, I will challenge you to do that. I've worked with relationship coaches. I've got a coach for a marriage coach right now. I've got we've had business coaches like you need to be constantly improving yourself. So, I will make sure that you're doing that if you join our program. All right. [00:26:33] That's it for today, right? All right. Until next time, everybody to our mutual growth. If you would like to be part of the adventure with door, grow, Go to doorgrow. com. Check us out. Book a call with us. We'll find out if we can help you. And if you are wanting to be a little bit more connected to our free community, you can go to doorgrowclub. com and join our free Facebook group. And that's it. Bye everyone. [00:27:01] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:27:27] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Man can learn valuable lessons from man's best friend…  In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about their passion project of fostering dogs and how business owners can learn about resilience from these adorable rescue pups. You'll Learn [02:56] The story of Chance the dog [11:09] What does this have to do with running a business? [18:39] Jason and Sarah's foster dogs Tweetables “You will look back on this as being such an easy thing for you to deal with in the present moment.” “If you're going to go through tough stuff, it's a lot better to have the right support around you.” “You're going to make mistakes, but that's the price of tuition in business.” “We're all doing the best we can with our current limited capacity and knowledge that we possessed in that moment.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If this dog can go through everything that he went through and still push through, whatever is happening in your business, whatever is happening in your life, whatever is happening in your marriage, in your friendships, in your relationships, you can push through it.  [00:00:14] Jason: Yeah, just tell yourself you're not yet at Maynard level. [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:35] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win we're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, founder, [00:01:16] cOO of DoorGrow. [00:01:18] And now let's get into the show. All right So we were thinking what we should talk about today and one of Sarah's strong passions Is dogs. I think Sarah likes dogs more than people. Is that fair?  [00:01:34] Sarah: That's accurate.  [00:01:35] Jason: Okay, she's an intj. Any of you that are familiar with myers briggs intjs typically like animals more than people. I don't know why, and I like dogs too, so not a fan of cats I'm allergic to them and I think they're smelly. [00:01:51] Sorry, all you cat lovers out there, but I'm more of a dog person. You can see in the background here is. Hey buddy, who's smelling around. This is a dog that we're fostering right now. And the working title for this dog is Hans. That's they give them names, but this is a dog we're fostering and it's such a sweet dog. [00:02:13] And so I wanted, this is a passion of Sarah's. We've been fostering some dogs and we've had, had some difficult times fostering dogs and we've had some good times, you know, let's, should we talk about our first foster?  [00:02:27] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. If that didn't turn us off to fostering...  [00:02:31] it was like worst case scenario, I would say. [00:02:35] Jason: So Sarah's dog, one of our dogs, he's a large dog and he's a Pitbull. American.  [00:02:44] Sarah: He's an American Pitbull. American Pitbull.  [00:02:45] Jason: Terrier. 100%. We got him DNA tested, purebred. And then we have another little mutt that we can talk about that we got.  [00:02:53] Sarah: That we adopted. Well, that one was after the whole Chance thing. [00:02:56] Jason: Yeah, totally. So we decided to, like foster, we brought a dog in and this dog's name was Chance and he was a pit bull. We thought maybe they'd get along but we didn't know Chance's background. We didn't know Chance's history. The previous people made it sound like he was a good dog sort of, but they really, I think we're kind of keeping secrets from us and gave us a bunch of rules. [00:03:21] Like, be careful with other dogs and like separate for a while and we did everything  [00:03:25] Sarah: that's always the rule.  [00:03:26] Jason: Sure.  [00:03:26] Sarah: Careful with other dogs be separate for a while. Slow introductions. Never feed together. That's yeah, those are always the rules. You say that as if that was like a red flag. [00:03:35] That was not a red flag.  [00:03:36] Jason: Okay. [00:03:37] Sarah: They tell you that with every dog.  [00:03:38] Jason: They had to have known that this dog had some violent tendencies or some history. So long story short, this dog bit Sarah. They gaslit us and blamed, it bit her arm. And they were like, "oh, well, there was food involved" or something like this. [00:03:53] We're like, okay, maybe it was us. We'll be more careful. So we still kept the dog. And we had the dog for like a month.  [00:04:00] Sarah: We struggled with that too. Because we really, we, right then and there, we thought, okay. I think we're done. I think he's got to go back. Someone else can foster him. [00:04:08] Yeah. And they kind of talked us into it. Like, "oh, well, can you just hang on to him until I find another place for him to go? Because like, nobody can take him right now."  [00:04:18] Jason: I don't think there's any safe place for them to go. So later. At this point later, it had been a month, we had integrated the dogs, they were hanging out, they're on the couch together, like it didn't seem to be a problem. [00:04:31] It was kind of, but I think really was like a working truce or something. I think this dog had a history of maybe being involved in dog fights, something like this would be my guess. Because some dogs will usually get together. And they'll do a little bit of have a little tiff, but they're not trying to kill each other, right? [00:04:48] They'll, like, bite, they'll do something, they'll give a warning, and they'll be done with it. So, I had come home from a walk, Parker came up to me, I played with him a little bit, he did a little playful sort of growl with a toy or whatever, the other dog gets off the couch. This dog had no expression. He's just headed towards Parker. [00:05:07] Parker saw him and it was like, it was on and saw him coming towards me. And they just locked up and they got into this horrible dog fight. Like, and we have a long entryway into our home, like a big hallway, like entryway that runs kind of all the way to the back of the house almost. [00:05:26] Right. And this was. in our family room towards the back of the house and the fight continued all the way to the front door. Like it was just, it was a disaster. This dog Chance and Parker were fighting and we were trying to break it up. Sarah was on with Parker trying to pull him and I was trying to get Chance off and Sarah, you were freaking out if you don't mind me saying. [00:05:51]  [00:05:51] Sarah: I mean, yeah. Like, rightfully so.  [00:05:54] Jason: Yeah. She's freaking out. And so it, yeah it was interesting. So there's blood everywhere. Blood flying all over the place, dogs are locked up and fighting, biting at each other and so then I, yeah. You know, if I had my gun or knife on me, dog probably would be dead. [00:06:09] I couldn't figure out what else to do. And we weren't going to let him kill our dog. And he was much stronger than Parker. So, we didn't want Parker to die. Right. So, but what I did in that moment is I was like, I had done a little bit of jujitsu training in the past. So I was like, Oh, I'm going to choke him out. [00:06:26] I was trying to, I first tried to lift the legs up. Cause that's what people say. I didn't, that wasn't really a great idea because I lift his back legs up and to try and pull him off. And he just turned and latched onto my leg. He turned really quickly, latched onto my leg, bit my leg through my pants. I have permanent bite mark on my right leg and had latched on my leg. [00:06:49] through my pants and was biting me. Then Parker was coming at him. So he turned back to Parker. And then I use that moment when he came at my leg towards me to get my arm underneath his neck and then to choke him out, just like in martial arts. So I did a blood choke and I figured he's probably got veins going through his neck to his brain, just like all of us humans. [00:07:13] And it choked him out. And then He passed out. I was holding him in my arm and I picked him up and was choking him out because he eventually released Parker and I was choking him out. I'm holding this limp dog in my arm. And then his Parker was latched onto one of his legs or something. And Sarah was like, "what do I do? What do I do? He won't let go!" And I was like, Sarah has a martial arts background, so I figured you knew how to do a choke. So I was like, "choke him out. You got to choke him out!" So she had to grab Parker and get him to release. And and he did. Parker really was trying to protect us. That was obvious. [00:07:52] But Parker was losing, like it wasn't going well for him. Parker, the other dog had some bites on him, but he was okay. But Parker had to go to the hospital. Like he was really messed up. He had to get surgery. His ear was like torn in half. Yeah, his  [00:08:09] Sarah: ear was torn and then he had a chunk ripped out of his neck. [00:08:13] Like the back of his neck. Yeah, it was ugly. Yeah, it was not good.  [00:08:16] Jason: So, while I had Chance in the choke hold and limp, I carried him through the house to the backyard and put him into the backyard. And shut the door so we could just keep them separate. And then, yeah, we were just, I was totally scared of that dog after that. [00:08:33] But that's what we did. And eventually I think we just got him into a crate or something. So he wasn't in the backyard.  [00:08:39] Sarah: Yeah. No, I had to go get him.  [00:08:41] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:42] Sarah: Into the crate. Because he was like, I don't think he's going to want to see me. I just choked him out. No. No, that's probably a good call. [00:08:48] Jason: He probably wouldn't want to attack me. Yeah. Because I was pretty rough with him. So, that's my adventure in choking out a pit bull. Yeah.  [00:08:58] Sarah: So I think you never really know what you're going to do until you're like in the moment.  [00:09:02] Jason: Yeah.  [00:09:03] Sarah: And then your adrenaline kicks in and sometimes you know what you're going to do or you think you know what you're going to do ahead of time and you find out there's no plan. [00:09:12] There's no plan. And the they do tell you like, oh, lift the dog's hind legs over its head and it will release. Yes, and  [00:09:20] two out of two times it released and then latched on to.  [00:09:25] Jason: Yeah, they don't like that it's being lifted up.  [00:09:27] Sarah: No.  [00:09:27] Jason: So, I mean, that was an interesting moment because I went into tunnel vision. [00:09:31] This is how guys brains work. We're generally singular focused. This is why they send us to war, right? We can just focus on one thing. So I wasn't really particularly traumatized by the event. I mean, it was, but I was like, okay, I'm in mission mode. I'm doing what I need to do with the dog and that's it. [00:09:47] Yeah. And then we got to clean up because there's blood everywhere, all through our home. Yeah, it was like a freaking emergency. Walls, everywhere. It was awful. There's blood everywhere.  [00:09:53] Sarah: Everywhere. And then I was covered in it. Because I was holding  [00:09:57] Jason: Parker and I had a white t shirt and then  [00:09:59] Sarah: when we like I got Parker in the office and Chance was outside because Jason put him out there and Jason looked at me and I'm literally like from here down I was just drenched. [00:10:12] Jason: You were holding Parker and he was the more wounded. Drenched. Yeah. [00:10:15] Sarah: And he's going "oh my god. Oh my god." He's like, "Sarah, there's freaking blood" It's not mine. It's not mine. Like, I'm okay. I lost my pinky nail. That got ripped off. So for a while I had no pinky nail that, that was not fun.  [00:10:27] Jason: Like your actual nail.  [00:10:28] Sarah: Like my actual, everybody says, okay. [00:10:30] Let me clear something up. Everybody says, Oh, those aren't real nails. These are real. These are actually attached to my real nails on my finger. So like underneath you can kind of see,  [00:10:41] Jason: yeah, there's like,  [00:10:42] Sarah: there are real nails here. And then yes, I make them longer, but it's not just a tip. Like if you pull off one of these nails, it is attached to your real nail and your real nail will come off with it. [00:10:55] Jason: You had a flesh pinky, like there was no nail for a while. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of odd.  [00:11:00] Sarah: Yeah, it was horrible. Yeah that, that was awful.  [00:11:03] Jason: Yeah, and it took a while for my bite mark to heal. So, yeah. So, so that was our first adventure.  [00:11:09] Sarah: Let me pause here and say, cause I know some of you guys are going, "why the freaking hell are they talking about any of this? It sounds awful. And it's like, oh my God, I don't even want to keep listening to the episode." Keep listening. Because I think one of the things that I would say about particularly about this situation that we had to go through is sometimes in life, sometimes also in business, you gotta go through some shit. [00:11:34] And you're going to be in some situations that you definitely did not plan for, that you've never been in before, and that Maybe you don't know what to do, and in the moment, the only thing you can do is whatever comes to your mind, whatever you can think of, and then, it's afterwards, then there's the PTSD, so then you just have to heal from the PTSD, but I also would say it's fair that every entrepreneur has a little PTSD from their business.  [00:12:07] Jason: Yeah, for sure.  [00:12:08] Sarah: Yeah  [00:12:09] Jason: Well, because entrepreneurs we take bigger risks. We get to experience you know issues like cash flow problems or staffing issues or team members that losing faith in us and leaving or team members stealing from us, right? [00:12:24] Sarah: Having to fire somebody.  [00:12:25] Jason: If you're working for a boss you don't generally have to experience a lot of this stuff that you experience as a business owner. We're choosing into a higher level of stress, trauma, difficulty, which is why it's not for everybody when not everybody starts a business. And but yeah, it's important to heal from these things and to level up from these things and learn from these things so that you can get to that next level of capacity to be able to deal with that next level of stress that exists in business. And I tell clients this all the time. [00:12:55] They're currently dealing with some problem they think is so hard and they're at kind of a lower level and I tell them, someday, you will look back on this as being such an easy thing for you to deal with in the present moment, you'll be like, Oh man, I can't believe that was so hard for me then. I'm dealing with such bigger challenges and bigger level, higher level things now. And that's encouraging for them. They're like, Oh, that's good news. They're like, and they know they're like, yeah, someday this will be easy. I'm like, someday, this hiring stuff will be easy. Someday this, you know, process stuff that you're dealing with will be easy. [00:13:29] Because you're going to increase your capacity. You're going to learn, you're going to level up. It's the price of tuition and business. So let me take a quick break. I'm going to share our sponsor for this episode, which is Vendoroo. So if you are dealing with constant stress, the hassle of maintenance coordination, and that's an issue for you, check out Vendoroo. They're your AI driven in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish, triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection and coordination. It's built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. [00:14:08] Vendoroo takes care of the details so you can focus on growth. Schedule a demo today at Vendoroo, V E N D O R O O dot AI slash doorGrow and experience maintenance done right. I was actually, we were hanging out with the Vendoroo guys and I was telling them the story. Because we were telling them how we were fostering a dog and we had to get home, you know, from dinner. [00:14:29] And then they were, we somehow shifted in that story and they were just like, so interested. So, but yeah, so if you want to check out DoorGrow. com, we actually just put this up yesterday because we've been fostering and taking care of dogs and our team are really excited about this. I had the idea with one of my team members, we did a secret project. [00:14:51] Yeah, because we knew Sarah would probably like it. So we put up a dog page. So you can see the dogs that we've like, fostered. I don't think we put Chance on the page. Did we? I don't think we put Chance on the page.  [00:15:03] Sarah: No, we didn't. No. Chance was not a great story. But Parker isn't on there either. And Parker is the OG. [00:15:09] Jason: Parker's the OG. We can add Parker.  [00:15:11] Sarah: Parker's like the mascot of everything.  [00:15:14] Jason: So, anyway, check that out right at the top, you'll see a little dog emoji and it says dogs on our website. And you can see, you know, a little bit of the passion we have for helping out dogs. All right. So we told the story of Chance. [00:15:27] And you would think after that we would be done. And I think we were for a little while. It was like, yeah, kind of free, especially for you to like, get past the PTSD of that. You beat yourself up quite a bit about it, which you can be good at times, right?  [00:15:43] Sarah: I'm really, yeah. Yeah. Because on the DISC profile, I'm a DC, so I'm super critical of everything and everyone, including myself. [00:15:54] Yeah.  [00:15:54] So yeah.  [00:15:56] Jason: Which good operators are hard time.  [00:15:58] Sarah: And hard time with that. And I, like I, I internalized a lot of that. I took blame for a lot of that and I had to just kind of work, work my way through that. And it kind of goes back to anytime that you deal with a hard situation, it might be in business or otherwise, you know, you're going to reflect on the situation and some people are really good at externalizing and saying like, none of that was my fault. [00:16:25] You know, I have like no ownership in that whatsoever. Some of people, they take all of the ownership and are really bad at externalizing. So I think you have to kind of find the middle ground. Like what am I responsible for? What am I accountable for? You know, how can I learn? I'm going to learn from that. [00:16:43] And for me it was the, it hands down, it was the scariest moment of my life. Most terrifying moment of my entire life. And I've been in some pretty scary situations back when I did property management. This puts it to shame, absolute shame. But I think it's really just, it's finding the middle ground and figuring out what am I responsible for and how can I learn. [00:17:06] Jason: I think also, I think that some people are kinder to themselves and have more grace for themselves. And I think it's important to remember, like all of us have been through tough stuff and we may beat ourselves up for it, but beating ourselves up doesn't really have any saving power. It doesn't make us better to beat ourselves up. [00:17:26] What we can do though, is we can recognize, you know, in that moment. And based on the decisions we made we were making the best decisions we knew to make at that time And I think you know, we can all afford ourselves a little bit of grace. You're going to make mistakes and screw things up in business. [00:17:41] You're going to fuck up and you're going to make bad choices. I've made some big mistakes like in business. You know, I did a whole episode on my two million dollar mistake or whatever you're going to make mistakes, but that's the price of tuition in business and you keep going. But I think also we need to be willing to afford ourselves some grace and recognize we're all doing the best we can with our current limited capacity and knowledge that we possessed in that moment. [00:18:08] And so if you knew better, you would do better, right? We are definitely going to behave differently having had that lesson with Chance with other dogs, right? We're a little bit more attuned to their behavior. their temperament, like how to integrate them. Like we're paying more attention. [00:18:25] Like we just, we have a different level of awareness and that's what happens in business. If you can move past the trauma and the difficulty and you go right back at it, you pick yourself back up. You dust yourself off. You're going to learn from the experience. So should we talk about some other dogs real quick? [00:18:42] All right. Who else? Well, let's first, let's go to the OG, right? So Parker's my baby. Parker is the best dog I've ever had. And I don't know if there's ever going to be a dog that is better than Parker. I just don't, I said that about my first pit bull and then Parker, I love him so much more than my first pit bull. [00:19:01] . So Parker, I got him 2016, so he's like eight now. And he his mom was a family pet who got out of the yard one day and got herself pregnant. So she went, had a good old time. Her owner found out that she was pregnant and decided to drop her off at the pound because he didn't want a pregnant dog. [00:19:25] Sarah: So, you know, instead of like spay, neuter, that whole thing, he's like, yeah, I'll just take her to the pound.  [00:19:29] Jason: Let's get rid of her.  [00:19:30] Like, while pregnant.  [00:19:32] Sarah: Still going to find you, bud. Like you're out there, I'll get you one day. So dropped her off at the pound. Pregnant dogs should not be at the pound. They will, you know. [00:19:40] Get very sick. So, they moved her to a foster. She had a bunch of puppies and Parker was one of those puppies. So I saved him and he's my baby. He's fiercely loyal and protective of me, even when he probably shouldn't be. Sometimes with Jason, he's protective of me. Like you'll smack my butt, and Parker does not like that.  [00:20:04] Jason: I do smack Sarah's butt butt, everybody. Honest confessions. Husbands, if you are not smacking your wife's butt occasionally, something's wrong. Letting you know. So.  [00:20:15] Sarah: Yeah. But Parker doesn't know. He doesn't know that. He doesn't know it's friendly and playful and loving. No. He knows hitting is bad. [00:20:21] I [00:20:22] Jason: have to do it when he's not nearby.  [00:20:24] Sarah: Yeah. To be fair, I can't hit myself either, so, like, if a bug lands on me or something, I hit myself.  [00:20:30] Jason: Yeah, he starts getting around you and, like, trying to, like, climb on you and, like, protect you from yourself, yeah.  [00:20:36] Sarah: He does.  [00:20:37] Jason: And he'll get, try and get in between us and, like, prevent me from getting near her, yeah. [00:20:41] He does.  [00:20:42] Sarah: He does. So Parker was the first dog that I had ever rescued.  [00:20:45] Jason: He's like a nanny dog.  [00:20:46] Sarah: He is a nanny dog. We call him the nanny dog. He is. And we say, when he's doing his thing, I'm like, oh, he's nanny dogging again. Yeah. So, Parker, we've got Parker. And then after the whole Chance thing, we took a break for about eight months. [00:21:01] And then I thought, okay, well, what if we do a smaller dog? Because after that, Parker was more selective with bigger dogs. Rightfully so. That's his version of PTSD. So I thought, okay, well, maybe a smaller dog could work. And that is where Captain came in. So Captain just for reference, size reference, Parker varies between 80 and 85 pounds. [00:21:24] Jason: Big dog.  [00:21:24] Sarah: Captain is 14, 14 pounds.  [00:21:27] Jason: Yeah, Parker's tall like a lab, but built like a pit bull.  [00:21:30] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, so Captain is only 14 pounds. He's a little baby. He's about  [00:21:36] Jason: tiny  [00:21:37] Sarah: three or four ish He was we got him from a shelter about like an hour and a half away an hour 45 minutes away and Someone had him and his two brothers and decided they were done with him So they shoved them in a crate and they dropped them off at an animal shelter overnight  [00:21:56] Jason: Yeah, because it says you're not allowed to leave animals here. [00:21:59] So they secretly did it in the middle of the night, left the crate there.  [00:22:03] Sarah: On the doorstep. So the staff came in at 7 a. m. and found three dogs shoved in the crate. Huh. Super, super, don't be like these people, be better, okay? So, then him and Parker actually worked really well together and Like Captain just loves Parker so much. [00:22:21] He just loves him so much. Like I take Parker to the chiropractor and Captain stays here. And when I come back with Parker, Captain is way more excited to see Parker than he is to see me. He loves me so much, but he's like, just  [00:22:35] Jason: he's jumping all  [00:22:36] Sarah: over the moon about Parker. So Captain's our second rescue. [00:22:40] Jason: And Captain's, he's kind of a mutt. He, we did a DNA test on him.  [00:22:43] Sarah: Oh, no, he's a he's absolutely a mutt.  [00:22:45] Jason: Yeah, he's got Rat Terrier. He's got...  [00:22:48] Sarah: I think if you could do him in order, probably not.  [00:22:50] Jason: I don't know. Rat Terrier was probably the largest.  [00:22:52] Sarah: Rat Terrier is the largest. What's next? Then American Pit Bull Terrier, which is why he's brindle on the top. [00:22:57] Jason: Oh, yeah.  [00:22:58] Sarah: Huh. Yeah. Okay. Yep. American Pit Bull Terrier. Then Super Mutt.  [00:23:03] Jason: Yeah, that's what the That's a breed. Super Mutt.  [00:23:05] Sarah: I'm like, oh, wow. They call it a Super Mutt. Okay. Okay. It's like 14 percent Super Mutt. Huh. I think. Boston Terrier, Yorkshire Terrier, And then Dachshund, which is what we're told he was. [00:23:19] Jason: Yeah, and he's little. He's really little. He'll get in our face. All the time. Alright, so, next dog.  [00:23:27] Sarah: Yeah, so, we've had Captain for a little over a year now, and then I thought, okay let's foster. We won't adopt another one, but like, we'll foster, we'll, you know, help train it, kinda get it back on its feet, do something good, get it ready for a family. [00:23:42] And that's where Maynard came in.  [00:23:44] Jason: Mmm. Maynard.  [00:23:45] Sarah: That one, that, he's heartbreaking. So if any of you guys had followed us on social media, like, a lot of people I guess were checking in with you, like, how's Maynard? How's Maynard?  [00:23:55] Jason: Yeah it was hard to even look at him and not get emotional. This dog was so emaciated, so starving. [00:24:03] It was a bulldog. They found him in the, in San Antonio, on the street. And this is like in the height of summer. In 104 degree Texas heat, which, if you know anything about bulldogs, they can't breathe because their face is smushed. He was basically a skeleton with fur. If you see pictures or any of our, if you see it, you'll be like, Oh my gosh, like, how's this dog alive? [00:24:27] Yeah, he was covered in like over a hundred ticks. Yeah and he had all sorts of diseases and problems related to that.  [00:24:36] Sarah: Like lesions and wounds. Yeah, he had wounds.  [00:24:38] Jason: Burns it looked like all over his body? [00:24:40] Sarah: He may have hidden under a car that was hot and like burned himself on the hot car trying to find some shade. [00:24:47] Jason: Yeah. [00:24:47] Sarah: And cool himself down. Yeah  [00:24:49] Jason: It's super sad.  [00:24:51] Sarah: This dog was in bad shape. He was 25 pounds and he's supposed to be probably at least 50 or 60.  [00:24:57] Jason: Yeah, they spent And a whole evening trying to pull all the ticks off of him, like they had to give him a blood transfusion or he would have died. Like he was just, he was in bad shape,  [00:25:07] Sarah: He had two tick borne illnesses. [00:25:10] He had pneumonia. He needed a blood transfusion just to survive this. He was obviously severely emaciated and severely dehydrated. And eating, you can't just take a dog like that and shove a bunch of food like Edla, she was like, oh, we could just feed him a lot. And I'm like, you'll kill him. [00:25:29] He'll die. Yeah. So your body, very what happens when you're that far along is muscle atrophy. So your body will eat the muscle. So he had literally no muscle left on him anywhere.  [00:25:42] Jason: He didn't hardly walk  [00:25:42] Sarah: at all.  [00:25:43] Jason: He would just crumple over like he would like, yeah, he would try to walk. [00:25:46] You fall the time, man.  [00:25:47] Sarah: But he would try. He was really like, he tried. You'd think that a dog like this with this many problems would just say like, fuck it, I'm out. Like, I probably would. If I was up for it, I'd be like, alright, just, like, where's the plug? Pull it. Let's do it. But he did not. He did not want to give up. [00:26:04] He did not want to die.  [00:26:06] Jason: We had him for about a week?  [00:26:07] Sarah: We had him for a week. Yeah, we had him for a week.  [00:26:09] Jason: And then, like, he was in bad shape. I don't even think they should have let him come to us, but they didn't know all the stuff that was wrong with them. They  [00:26:15] Sarah: didn't, yeah, they didn't know everything because they didn't do the full like, scan. [00:26:19] Jason: So we had him for a week and took care of him, but we started to notice he was like, he was getting worse. So then we we reached out to the foster organization and then they took Maynard to the doctors and they were, like, he was in bad shape. His whole esophagus had been destroyed so he couldn't, like, move food down. [00:26:38] They've, we've, later they figured out, well, he just needs to sit upright, and like, gravity, and maybe that'll heal over time, I don't know, but he had a whole bunch of issues, but before they figured that out, they were like, this dog is in such bad shape. He's not really getting food down.  [00:26:53] Sarah: He's. Well, they didn't know what exactly. [00:26:54] Yeah, so they were about to put him down. When I brought him back to the vet. So they started doing some tests on him. They said he actually lost weight and I'm like that doesn't make sense. Like he's been with me for a week. He's eaten every day and he wants his food. Like he wants it, desperately wants his food. [00:27:11] And that doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. How did he lose weight? And they're like, I don't know. So then they found out that he had. A very rare parasitic infection that attacked his liver. He has heart disease. His pneumonia has gotten worse. And then they were trying to figure out the whole, why did he lose weight type situation? [00:27:38] And they ended up doing a scan. They did not think he was going to make it. They just, they didn't know. There was so much going on with him. Like issues as long as my arm, the list was as long as my arm and they didn't think he was going to make it. So the president of the organization, she let me know, she's like, I have to make a really tough decision right now. [00:27:59] Jason: And they put a lot of money towards this dog. The whole, like, a lot, thousands of dollars.  [00:28:03] Sarah: It was, I think his treatment was somewhere, All of it was like over like 7, 000 so far.  [00:28:09] Jason: Yeah, they were really doing everything they could to take care of this dog. But she was at the point where she was like, I think we're going to have to... yeah. [00:28:16] Sarah: Oh, and he was anemic on top of all of that. So he couldn't keep heat in.  [00:28:19] Jason: Okay.  [00:28:20] Sarah: Poor guy.  [00:28:20] Jason: So like, they were about to put him down. Right.  [00:28:25] Sarah: Yeah they decided like it doesn't seem like there's anything like he's too like he's just too far gone and The vet came in the room like with the shot and they said all right, let's give him like one last really awesome meal So they gave him mac and cheese and he Scarfed it down like you wouldn't even believe and that whole day and the whole day before he wasn't moving. [00:28:49] He wasn't walking. He wasn't really interested in anything. He was just very lethargic, very tired. He didn't, he did not care. Mac and cheese, he was like, what is that? Give me all of it. Perked right up for the mac and cheese. So the mac and cheese literally saved his life because he was minutes from being put down. [00:29:08] Said that she has never been that close to putting a dog down and then didn't do it.  [00:29:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:29:14] Yeah, but that gave her hope that, Hey, there's something here. There's some life in him. And he's, You know, he's motivated for some reason.  [00:29:22] Sarah: Yeah. And the vet who was going to euthanize him then, she said, there is something weird with this dog. [00:29:30] Like, it's just, there's something off. We don't know, like, is it okay if we do like the full scan? And she's like, if you think it'll help him, like, if you think that we can figure this out and save him so that he has some quality of life. So  [00:29:45] Jason: because of the mac and cheese, and seeing something that seemed a little bit off, because that like, he was so excited about that and he was eating it, they then did and he perked up, they did the scan and they found what? [00:29:59] Sarah: So in dogs, they call it a mega esophagus. So essentially, his esophagus doesn't work. They think that he may have, back like when he was dumped on the side of the road, and also, I should, we should have said this, he was intact, so we think that he was used for breeding. And then when he got too far along, these fuckers dumped him on the side of the road. [00:30:21] So they're number two on the hit list. I will find them and they're not even far from me. I will go get them. So they dumped him on the side of the road. When he was on the side of the road they think that he either ate something or drank something that was toxic and messed up his whole esophagus. [00:30:38] Yeah. [00:30:39] So that's why he was eating food, but it was all impacted in his esophagus. Hardly any of it was actually getting through to his stomach.  [00:30:47] Jason: Yeah,  [00:30:48] Sarah: so they found that out and Bruni the president of the organization said well wait a second when he was with his fosters like he had a bowel movement So something had to have gotten through like what can we do? [00:30:59] She's like, what if we like prop them up. They have like a little Bailey chair, but they didn't have one there. So they made a makeshift one out of like blankets and cardboard.  [00:31:07] They're like, what if we do like a makeshift Bailey chair, test it for 24 hours, see if any food actually gets through into the stomach because that is a treatable condition. [00:31:17] Now, if they're born with it and then that's really hard. But he wasn't born with it. Something destroyed his esophagus. So they said, oh, that's like, it's a treatable condition. So what if we try this, give him 24 hours, and then he's got to show us that he can get some food and medication down into his stomach because all the medication for all of the problems, it wasn't even getting into his system. [00:31:46] Jason: Medicine, food, nothing was making it.  [00:31:48] Sarah: Nothing. No water. Like he had a couple bowel movements with us. So like Something must have, but not. Not the way he should have been. So after a 24 hour hold, he had a full stomach of food.  [00:32:02] Jason: Yeah, they figured out he just needed gravity. Like they just had to prop him up. [00:32:06] So he's sitting up like a human eating, you know, and he was perfectly happy to eat. Like he was a hungry dog. So then he went to be taken care of full time by the foster organization. Yeah [00:32:18] Sarah: He has multiple medications he has to eat like a very small strict  [00:32:23] Jason: And she has a lot of dogs at her place that she's taking care of so she asked if she had another foster. She said could you take this dog Silver? Yeah So then we got Silver was the next...  [00:32:33] Sarah: oh, wait. The thing I want to say about Maynard is that he had every reason to give up and he had every reason, multiple reasons. [00:32:43] Like he had like literally so many health problems.  [00:32:46] Jason: Yeah. And everybody around him had multiple reasons to give up on him. .  [00:32:48] Sarah: He had every reason to not trust humans and every reason to be like a nasty, vicious dog. And he just wasn't he was not he was so sweet and he loved to like just shove his little smush face into me And just nuzzle it and when it was in there, he still wasn't close enough He was still like pushing trying to get closer Because I think that was the first time he ever experienced love and even though he had every single reason stacked up against him. [00:33:19] Like the odds were not at all in his favor. There's no reason that this dog should technically be alive. It's only because he's so freaking stubborn. He did not want to give up on himself. Even through all of that, even through all of that, he didn't want to give up on himself. So when we were going through all of that, like with him, I was telling people like when I would run my scale calls on Fridays, my our operations call, I was telling people like. [00:33:45] If this dog can go through everything that he went through and still push through whatever is happening in your business, whatever is happening in your life, whatever is happening in your marriage, in your friendships, in your relationships, you can push through it. Because every single time that they thought they had the issue figured out, there were like five more issues that popped up with him. [00:34:08] Jason: Yeah, just tell yourself you're not yet at Maynard level. You can handle it though. He also had a really good support mechanism around him eventually, right? And I think that's also there's a little lesson in that is that you need If you're going to go through tough stuff, it's a lot better to have the right support around you and to have people that believe in you, even when you might feel like giving up, and that, you know, can see that you can be better. [00:34:36] And we need those. We need those people around us. And so if you don't have that in your business, it's probably feeling pretty hard because you're doing, you feel like it's all up to you and you're all on your own. And that's a dumb way to grow business. It just is. All right. Next dog.  [00:34:54] Sarah: Okay. So the medical foster that took Maynard after his second, third ER stint she said, Hey, like I, I cannot take another foster, but I have to take Maynard. [00:35:05] Can you take Silver? And then that gives me room to take Maynard. And I said, so Silver, like this is Austin Bulldog Rescue. They largely work with bulldogs. It's not only bulldogs, but most of them are bulldogs. Silver is not a bulldog. He looks like some sort of terrier. I think he had very terrier fur. But he was little, like 30 pounds. [00:35:28] Very high energy. He was probably like in his teenage phase. They also found him on the side of the road in San Antonio. The sad thing about him, though, is he had like, he was house trained. He had like house manners. So he lived in a house at one point. And Either escaped or was dumped, but he was hanging out with a pack of dogs and the bulldogs He was like, these are my friends and the rescue were saving all the dogs and they were like, okay There's like this other dog like what do we do? [00:35:58] And she's like, well, you can't leave him like come on he's an honorary bulldog now. So so they They fostered him, took him in, and then we had him. We had him for about a week, and he already had some applications coming in on him, and he got rehomed to a family that I think is a great fit for him. [00:36:17] Jason: Yeah.  [00:36:18] Sarah: They're such a good fit.  [00:36:19] Jason: Silver had a lot of energy. Yes. He was like doggy teenager. He had a ton of energy, super excited, loved running around. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:36:30] Sarah: And they're like, we want to go for a walk every day. And we like to go on hikes and we like to go camping and we'll bring the dogs. And I was like, Oh, he would like,  [00:36:37] Jason: he'll love that. [00:36:38] Sarah: He would love that. He would love that. And every dog that Silver saw, he wanted to play with every single one of them. And then they have another dog. So it was just figuring out, are those two going to be nice to each other? And they're great. He was very like respectful of her boundaries, which none of us had seen previous to that. [00:36:57] So that was really good. And they're doing great so far. And then. The woman that adopted him, she sends me pictures of him. Like, she's like, just so you know, he's doing great. I'm like, oh, thank you. Thanks for sending that.  [00:37:09] Jason: All right. Next.  [00:37:11] Sarah: Next is this guy behind me.  [00:37:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:37:14] Sarah: Baby. [00:37:15] So we wanted to do another foster. Bulldogs are a lot of work, like so much work. And we went to a shelter that's local and we were looking, I was looking online for a dog that was not small, but also not large. So he's like 44 pounds ish. He's  [00:37:37] Jason: got a bit of a cough right now.  [00:37:39] Sarah: Yeah, he had kennel cough. [00:37:41] So we're. working on clearing that up with him and they don't know a whole lot about him. They found him as a stray in Round Rock but that's also so sad because he's so sweet and like he's house trained and he's got manners and I'm like, oh, Jason keeps saying he's like this somebody's like some family's dog like they must be missing their dog and I'm like, it was in the shelter for over a month. [00:38:06] So yeah, like Parker goes missing. I'm not sleeping until I find him.  [00:38:11] Jason: Sure. [00:38:11] Sarah: You know, I would there would be a bolo out on it everything like I would call the SWAT team like Everybody would be involved. So now we are fostering Hans and We're looking for a forever family for him. Although we might foster fail and keep them ourselves. [00:38:30] We'll see but we're That's what it called. It's foster fail.  [00:38:33] Jason: Oh. Yeah. This one's hard to not  [00:38:37] Sarah: The first day we got him, the two kids and Jason were already pushing me. They're like, we could just keep him.  [00:38:44] Jason: He's a special dog.  [00:38:45] Sarah: It didn't take long. They're like, we could just, and I thought I was going to be the one who was weak. [00:38:49] I thought I was going to be the one who says like, oh, we should keep him. Like, let's just keep him.  [00:38:54] Jason: Yeah.  [00:38:55] Sarah: And shockingly enough, I was the one that was like, yes, but like, we're fostering so we can help more dogs. And the three of them, they're like, but we can just keep him. He's so perfect. Aren't you perfect? [00:39:07] So if he gets along with our other two, then. I think we might keep them. We'll see. See what happens. So. All right. So there's our dog story. That's the current. That's what Jason wanted to talk about dog thing  [00:39:20] Jason: today. So, you know, gives you a little glimpse into, I guess, what? Our personal lives a little bit. [00:39:27] Some of the things that Sarah cares about that we care about. And yeah, so. Dogs. So if you like dogs, then maybe you enjoyed this episode and maybe you learned something. I don't know. All right. Well, I think that's it for today. Until next time to our mutual growth, everybody, if you're wanting to grow your property management business, you can use some extra support, then reach out to us. [00:39:50] You can check us out at doorgrow. com and be sure to join our free Facebook group. If you are a property management business owner or planning on starting a property management business in the near future, go to doorgrowclub.Com and join our free community and that's it. Bye everybody. [00:40:09] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:40:35] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Today's episode you're in for SUCH a juicy FUN and also ridiculously inspiring and supportive convo from Sarah Moret, the founder of Curie. She shares her journey as an entrepreneur (including the not-so sexy parts of wanting to throw in the towel… and really getting GRITTY & resourceful) to then her experience on Shark Tank pitching while NOT EVEN SHOWERING (good thing she owns a deodorant company ;) ) before landing a deal with Barbra Corcoran & Mark Cuban. We talk about ambition, how to build risk tolerance and even juggling entrepreneurial ambitions with motherhood right around the corner for her. I think you're going to really love this convo leaving feeling like you've SO got what it takes to chase those big dreams you have– you might just have to get out of your own damn way ;) To connect with Sarah: You can find her on IG here: @sarahjmoret Check Curie on: curiebod.com Special thank you to our sponsor of today's podcast: CLEARSTEM! Cuz GIRLFRIEND….are you looking for a new SKINCARE line that works and is ACTUALLY non-toxic with no hormone disruptors or CRAP in it? If so, you've got to check out my FAVORITE anti-acne, anti-aging line CLEARSTEM! They have no hormone disrupters or TOXINS and honestly…. Their products have been game-changer in my life for the last 6+ years I've been using them! Tap this link: https://glnk.io/rqop/kacia to check them out & use code “KACIA” for a sweet discount! 

There was a recent event where the stock market plunged. Some are speculating about an impending recession. We're seeing the real estate market downturn in real time…  In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about the impact the current real estate market and economic downturn will have on property management businesses. You'll Learn [02:10] The current state of the economy [10:00] The real estate market and leasing challenges [21:07] Having empathy in property management [25:03] Real estate investing in a recession Tweetables “In every single recession, new millionaires are made and this is an opportunity for that to happen.” “Those that have built that ark so to speak, like Noah did, are prepared for the storm. They're ready. They're just going to float through it instead of drown.” “We always have to remember that property management is a relationship business.” “One of the most magical, impactful ingredients that you wouldn't think has an impact in getting people to move or do things or to take action is empathy.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: If you want to be in doom and gloom and "the sky's falling and I'm never going to make any money" then you're absolutely right. But if you want to look at the opportunity that is staring you in the face and say, "what can I do with this and how can I capitalize on this?" that is where millions are made.    [00:00:16] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives. And you are interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:22] Now let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:27] Sarah: That was good multitasking there.  [00:01:29] Jason: You saw that? See.  [00:01:30] Sarah: I saw that. That was one time of you multitasking. So you are capable of it.  [00:01:35] Jason: That was hard, but I had that part of the intro memorized. I was putting my phone on do not disturb as I was reading and she decided to call it out. It's hard, right guys? It's hard for us to multitask. Women have us beat in this area.  [00:01:49] Sarah: Oh, yeah. Yeah, we dominate you here.  [00:01:52] Jason: Yeah, your brains are just wired differently, but we have that singular focus advantage. We can just cut everything else out and focus on one thing at a time. [00:02:01] Sarah: Well, speaking of focusing on one thing at a time, let's get into the show.  [00:02:07] Jason: Yeah.  [00:02:07] Sarah: So we were going to talk about some doom and gloom today.  [00:02:10] Jason: Yeah. So we just saw the stock market tank, like a thousand points, right. Pretty wild. And friend of mine who runs a company, Jeremy Pound, he had mentioned, I saw his post online. [00:02:23] Shout out to Jeremy. He said, "now's the time to reach out to your real estate investor clients and say, 'Hey, look, your property didn't go down by a thousand points and never will,'" you know, something like that. So I thought that was clever. But yeah, real estate, probably a better investment right now than long term but a lot of investors are still in general freaking out. There's a recession that seems to be looming and coming or is already here depending on who you listen to. And so yeah, the sky is falling and chicken little's been shouting which is the news media and like everything bad is coming and so is this going to be how's this going to impact property management? [00:02:59] Might be a good question to start with.  [00:03:01] Sarah: Yeah, I think one of the things that we're already seeing is we have been seeing in many markets at least a decline in prices if you are trying to purchase a property right now. And we are no longer, no matter what market you're in, because some markets have still held pretty steady, no matter what market you're in, we're no longer in the days in which you list the property on a Monday, you get multiple offers and it's accepted for well over the list price the same day. [00:03:40] We're not in that situation any longer. So how does that affect property management? Well, on the real estate side, investors right now should be, if they're not, but they should be looking. Because things are on sale right now.  [00:04:00] Jason: Steals.  [00:04:01] Sarah: So as you think about what is your favorite store of all time? [00:04:06] Let's ask you, what's your favorite store ever?  [00:04:10] Jason: Amazon. Amazon. Okay, cool. I spend a lot of money there.  [00:04:12] Sarah: That's great. That's actually, you know, I wouldn't have thought of that. Because I don't, for my brain doesn't equate it to a store, but I guess it is.  [00:04:18] Jason: Okay.  [00:04:19] Sarah: I love it. I love Amazon. Okay, cool. Amazon. So if Amazon had a sale where everything was 30 percent off, would you probably buy some stuff? [00:04:29] Jason: Oh yeah, I'd buy a ton of stuff.  [00:04:31] Sarah: What if it was 55 percent off? 60. Oh. 70.  [00:04:36] Jason: No brainer. I would stock up on so much stuff.  [00:04:39] Sarah: You'd be like, "I don't even need this, but what if I do?"  [00:04:41] Jason: A million supplements. I would like.  [00:04:43] Sarah: Right.  [00:04:44] Jason: I'd be healthy set for the next year.  [00:04:46] Sarah: You'd be buying everything. So investors, this is your call. [00:04:48] Hello, real estate is on sale right now. So the savvy investors, they already know this. They're super excited right now. The savvy investors are not freaking out. The savvy investors. They know. This is where millions of dollars can be made and in fact in every single recession new millionaires are made and this is an opportunity for that to happen. [00:05:18] So people who are like the accidental investors and they've got that property they've been hanging on to and they're just waiting until the market gets hot enough and then they'll probably sell it. But in the meantime, I guess I'll hang on to it and rent it out. They're going to freak out right now. [00:05:36] They're going, "Oh my God, what if rents dip even more? What if vacancy rates are longer? So I can't fill a property or my property manager can't fill a property in a week like they used to be able to?" It was just churn them out and hurry up, get another one in there, find a warm body, put them in. They're like coming in droves. [00:05:54] That's not the situation anymore. And they will freak out. But the investors that understand the situation that we're in and the market at where it stands. Oh man, they are excited. Yeah, I'm excited right now. I'm like great tank, baby. Let's go . [00:06:12] Jason: So the big news out there like right now is Warren Buffett decided to sell off a ton of stock like half of his stake in Apple like some major things and he doesn't make very many moves, right? [00:06:24] He's like this minimalist in making Purchases or selling he's like he's the he's got the diamond hands, right? And He's now sitting on a cash stock pile 277 billion  [00:06:39] Sarah: billion with a b  [00:06:40] Jason: he's just hanging out with cash He's waiting for the bottom to hit because he knows he must know that things are going to get worse.  [00:06:47] Sarah: Because he's gonna go shopping. [00:06:50] Jason: Yeah, he's gonna he's definitely waiting to go shopping is my guess And so there's going to be some deals to be had And that may mean the real estate market could be getting worse. Could be getting a lot worse, perhaps. So, and if that's the case, then savvy investors right now should be stacking cash, right? [00:07:09] Property managers, you should be stacking cash because you should be a savvy investor. And looking for these deals. Now we've been through a recession before here at DoorGrow. Historically, what I've seen happen whenever there's a recession, the real estate market kind of dries up. Things get tough for real estate agents. [00:07:26] So a lot of real estate agents get squeezed out. So they find other jobs. And there's quite a few of them that think, "well, why don't I do property management?" And a lot of you listening, maybe during the last recession, that's what you did. You started a property management business. Maybe that's why you're now listening to this podcast and you have a property management business that you've probably, hopefully grown by since the last recession to at least 200 units or something, but maybe you haven't put enough focus on it. [00:07:53] Who knows. Those that have built that ark so to speak like Noah did are prepared for the storm. They're ready. They're just gonna float through it instead of drown. And you're going to see a lot of people scrambling to start property management businesses. That being said if you are a real estate agent, you're struggling you're like, "you know what? I don't really like the hunt and the chase of real estate buying and selling I would be really interested in property management," check out our foundations program. It's pretty great And it's super affordable. Hit us up, learn about DoorGrow Foundations. It's going to help you avoid thousands of dollars in costly mistakes and stupidity in getting started.  [00:08:33] Sarah: Since we're talking about avoiding costly mistakes, it would be a great time to talk about our sponsor.  [00:08:39] Jason: Cool. So, let's talk about Vendoroo. All right. Awesome new tech. Are you tired of the constant stress and hassle of maintenance coordination? Meet Vendoroo, your AI driven, in house maintenance expert that handles work orders from start to finish, triaging, troubleshooting, vendor selection and coordination. Built by property managers for property managers to provide cost effective and accountable maintenance operations where every dollar is accounted for and every task is handled with unmatched reliability. Vendoroo takes care of the details. So you can focus on growth schedule demo today at Vendoroo that's a vendor, V E N D O R O O like a kangaroo, get it? Dot AI. vendoroo.ai/doorgrow and experience maintenance done right. We've got some clients getting great results with that. [00:09:33] Yeah. So check that out. We're in an AI revolution right now.  [00:09:37] Sarah: Get in.  [00:09:38] Jason: We're hearing great things from our clients about this so far. I mean, it's been programmed for the last 12 years and has over half a million work orders already in it and never forgets any detail you tell it about the property and is intelligent. [00:09:53] And they put a human layer between that. So it's really cool. All right. Yeah. Back to the topic at hand.  [00:10:00] Sarah: Let's also talk about how things look right now in the property management world because you're like, "yeah, Sarah, things are on sale right now. Cool. But, man, it's just tough being a property manager right now. It's harder than it normally is." And a lot of times what we're seeing is again in certain markets right now is well rents are lower and that means property managers typically make less especially on that percentage part that you're charging so if the rent is 5, 000 versus if the rent is 1, 000, simple math will tell you, yes, you'll make less when the rents dip. [00:10:40] The other part of that is occupancy. So just like we used to be, what, two years ago, three years ago, we used to be able to list a property for sale and we would have multiple offers very quickly and it was no problem getting it sold. And the rental market has shifted a little bit as well. So we used to go, "Oh, we have a vacant property. Well, let's market it. And then we're going to have multiple applications and we'll get it filled really quick. It could be in a day. It could be in a week, but we know it's going to happen and we're not really worried." And now we're seeing that cycle take a little bit longer. So the rents are lower and the renting cycle of getting the applications and finding someone who's qualified, that is taking a little longer, so now it might take a few weeks. And if things are really bad, that might take a few months.  [00:11:38] Jason: So in some markets, vacancies are up right now, rents are lower, the rent cycle's taking longer, so leasing in general can be a bit more of a challenge. [00:11:47] And to be fair, a lot of property managers in the longterm rental management game, I've had it pretty easy, right? When you look at like multifamily stuff like this, 2020,  [00:11:58] Sarah: 2021, like none of y'all were complaining then, right? Super easy then.  [00:12:03] Jason: When you look at the multifamily industry, like getting tenants in place has always been a challenge in a lot of these multi family places And so they focus on this. [00:12:12] They're more aggressive. They put a lot more attention on this and so It may mean that you're going to need to put some greater attention on the leasing side of things to be a bit more competitive and a bit more aggressive to get these properties seen to get these properties like showed, to get these properties rented out. [00:12:33] So what are some things that they can do to kind of deal with this challenge with leasing right now?  [00:12:37] Sarah: Well, number one, I think the most important thing that you can do here is you may need to look at changing your processes depending on what they are in the leasing process, specifically regarding showings, right? [00:12:52] So if you're like, "well, we do two showings a week." This is how I used to do things. "I do two showings a week and one is at this day, this time. The other one is at this day, this time. This is when you can come and look at the property." Well, if we consistently aren't having anyone show up and then now all of a sudden we have someone who's interested and they can't make any of those showings, you may need to change your processes, right? So now we might need to look at "how can I offer more flexibility for someone who is qualified and interested? How can I offer more flexibility?" And that doesn't mean, "oh, I'm just going to be on call 24 hours a day as a leasing agent, and I'm just going to jump when somebody says, 'hey, I want to look at this property.'" [00:13:34] That is not what you're going to do. So, can we do self showings? Can we use electronic lock boxes? Can we have a team member just go to the property, unlock the door, stand and wait, and then lock it up? Because that's what I used to do, right? "Well, they have to be licensed." No one has to be licensed to unlock a door. [00:13:56] Unlock the door, stand there and wait, and lock up when they're gone. That does not require a license, right? So how can we offer more flexibility so that people who are interested are now able to go see the property when it's convenient for them? Because they might work 9 to 5. So 5:30 might be impossible because at 5:30 I'm stuck in traffic. Right. So I might need a 7 o'clock showing or a 7:30 showing, or I might need to do something on the weekend. But on the weekend, you know, I have all my kids stuff and soccer camp and all this stuff. So like finding those little spots that do work for them. "Well, great. What day and time would be good for you because I can see if I can fit you in" and, or if you have the electronic lock boxes that opens a whole host of availability. I think they shut off at a certain time. So you can't go at like midnight. Right? But, then you have a whole bunch of available slots. And they get to choose what's convenient.  [00:14:57] Jason: So, maybe even a step earlier, which I love the idea, like, you can start to be more flexible. [00:15:04] And maybe that could be helpful is just to get more eyeballs on properties maybe optimizing the listings and so there's several ways to optimize listings and a lot of property managers probably been a little bit lazy about this. Some companies put a lot of detail on this but this is a competitive advantage if you have better photos. We've had companies on like box brownie and others where they will improve or edit the photos there's so many ai tools now as well for photos and so if you can get your photos optimized and improved without lying without like, "Hey, look, the carpet and the walls are all perfect." And AI made it that way. And it looks like garbage, right? That is not going to like bode well for you. But yeah, if you are getting better photography, Improving and optimizing the listings, making sure the descriptions are really clear, adding video tours to these. One of the big things I would look at I loved seeing on any listings when we were looking to buy a rental property to rent out or anything. I love seeing the floor plans  [00:16:05] Sarah: That's so easy. [00:16:06] Jason: Just I love seeing the floor plans like then I could go "oh, this is how it all fits together. This is how it works," you know and all these photos that are taken from the corner with a wide angle lens and make everything look giant. That stuff's probably not serving you. It's not showcasing reality And so I think there's going to be a greater push with ai and fake humans and all this stuff, there's going to be a greater desire for humans to get reality. Everything's been fake news, fake everything, fake voting, fake food, right? Everybody's waking up to this So we need to stop trying to make everything look better than it is. We need to start showcasing reality. And so it might mean photos instead of wide angle from the corner, maybe more like we've done with our airbnb taking photos straight on. [00:16:52] Sarah: I think with Airbnb, that works really well. The types of photos I've put on our Airbnb, I would not.  [00:16:58] Jason: You wouldn't do on real estate?  [00:17:00] Sarah: What I would do though is I don't want to use the wide angle lens. That's going to make a little tiny closet look triple its size.  [00:17:08] Jason: Sure.  [00:17:08] Sarah: So that I think is something. [00:17:10] But still maybe from the corners. Yeah. And I would because when you're trying to either sell or rent a home, you are looking like, "Hey, imagine your family in here. Look how big the space is. Look how great it is. It's beautiful. Lots of light." But don't advertise there's lots of light if there's not lots of light, right? [00:17:27] So be realistic in it, but still do things to make it look attractive. That being said, a step even before the listing is really do some research in the market. What's available? "So, okay, this property, I can rent it out. I know what it looks like because I'm familiar with it, but this property is competing against other properties. What do the other properties in my market look like?" If all of the other properties have a swimming pool and you're the one without a swimming pool, you may have a problem, right? So if all of the other properties, they have certain amenities. You may need to look to see, "Hey, is it possible for us to also get these amenities?" [00:18:10] Right? So you might need to look at doing some updates to flooring, kitchens, bathrooms, and it may or may not be something that investors are able to invest in right now. But the important thing is, "Hey, this is in fact, an investment."  [00:18:29] Jason: Sure.  [00:18:29] Sarah: So right now, what we might need to do in order to be more attractive and in order to get those higher rents and in order to find a qualified tenant sooner, we might need to put some work into the property to make it look more attractive. [00:18:42] Now, right now that might seem really painful. However, it is an investment, which will give you an ROI on the property because even though rents are low right now, everything moves in cycles in real estate and the stock market. So we're at a low right now, but we're not going to stay there because if you recall, just two short years ago, it was booming. [00:19:08] So see how quickly things can change? So that means that in even two years from now, this can very easily be something that "Hey, rents have bounced back." And now this calls for a higher rent.  [00:19:24] Jason: So price is also going to be a factor right? And being able to get and convince your owners that "hey, we're going to need to drop the price. It's not just about cashflow in having a rental property." We've talked about our ROI calculator on previous episodes that have been helping clients close deals But being able to showcase the life the investment long term of the property, even if it's not cash flowing right now, it's still a good investment to keep can be effective and just getting the price low enough sometimes is what it takes to get at least out like that's always going to be a significant factor.  [00:20:01] Sarah: Absolutely.  [00:20:01] Jason: Related to that, our next sponsor is True Submeter. So with True Submeter, what's interesting about this is you have multi family properties and you're trying to fold the utilities into the rent and your rent looks higher on listings than other places where they're not including the utilities, then you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. [00:20:21] Here's a way to solve this. Attention, multifamily property owners and managers. Discover True Submeter, the number one water submetering company in the U. S. Say goodbye to water use abuse by your tenants and hello to billing for exact water consumption with no unit minimum. Enjoy smart, cost effective solutions designed to optimize your property's operations and save you money. Plus, get an exclusive 10 percent discount with the code DOORGROW10. That's DoorGrow one zero. Visit truesubmeter.Com today for intelligent utility solutions and substantial savings. That's truesubmeter.com [00:20:57] Another way, maybe to get the rent down, at least on the surface and the utility separate. All right. So, I think another factor in solving the leasing challenge... I've been studying sales a lot lately and one of the most magical, impactful ingredients that you wouldn't think has an impact in getting people to move or do things or to take action is empathy. [00:21:25] And so there are a lot of tenants that they will pick you, or pick getting a property from your business because you showed care, you showed empathy. You weren't an asshole. You weren't rude to them. You didn't make them feel unimportant or like a number and so just showing a little bit of care and showing a little bit of empathy is often the determining factor why somebody picks something over anything else. "Well, I got along better with them," or "they were nicer to me," or "they seemed like they actually cared and I could imagine them as a landlord" or "they answered their phone."  [00:21:58] Sarah: "They answered the phone when I called them, that was helpful." [00:22:01] Jason: And so adding in empathy or making sure that the people that are having, like working on the leasing and you know, showing the property and communicating with the tenants are team members that are feelers and are empathetic and show care would probably be a little bit more effective in getting placement would be my guess. [00:22:22] Sarah: One of our clients, I think he's outside of the Chicago area, Ed Kirch. He was saying in his area, there's like two, 300. New apartment buildings like being built and they're like large multifamily like apartment complex buildings. And then of course, they're not going to work with like a small mom and pop. [00:22:40] They're like, they're corporate owned. It's a big corporation that manages it.  [00:22:45] Jason: Yeah, they'll be brand new.  [00:22:47] Sarah: They're nice. They're pretty. And he said, "and sometimes the rents are either the same or even less than the units that we're managing." And he's like, "man, it's really hard to compete with that." And I said, "well, is it though?" [00:23:04] Because yes, there are always going to be the people who just want the bargain. They're like, "well, if this thing is $100 and this thing is $110, I'm going to go with this cheaper thing. Even if the $110 thing gets me better service, I don't care. I'm just all about the money." So if you're attracting those cheapo tenants, good luck managing those. [00:23:27] Have fun. Have fun with that. But if you're looking to attract great tenants, price is one factor, but it's not the only factor. So again, it's the relationship. And we always have to remember that property management is a relationship business because we have a relationship with the client and we have a relationship with the tenant. [00:23:51] So if one or both of those fails, it's going to be really hard for us then. So just by building that relationship and you do not need to be friends with them. You don't need to take them out for pizza and beer but just by being available to communicate with. Now again, don't go too far with this. [00:24:13] This does not mean you're at someone's beck and call 24 hours a day. "Oh, i'm going to be glued to my phone and as soon as somebody calls i'm going to answer right away." No, but it does mean that you are available. You are responsive. It's not a hundred percent of the time. Sometimes you might need to call someone back, but it's can they get in touch with you? And do they feel like 'I'm talking to a person who actually cares about me and my situation, or do I feel like I'm talking...' we've all had these conversations where you can just tell they're like, "hurry up. Come on, just sign the stupid application so I can be done with you and move on to the next thing that I'm doing. I don't really care at all, but I just want to make the money. So like, would you hurry it up here, sweetheart?" Right? So there's a big difference on how you're communicating with people as well. [00:25:03] Jason: Got it. So is there anything that you think will be shifting related to recession related to the owners? Like maybe money gets tighter for them. Inflation is going up. They're having a more difficult time paying for some of the repairs on the properties. Maybe it would make sense for some of the property managers now to be communicating with the owners, like, "Hey, set aside cash. Things are getting more expensive. Make sure you have the funds in order to take care of things related to this rental property, to weather this, you know. What do you think?  [00:25:31] Sarah: Yeah. I think that's fair for sure. I also think that, I mean, for me, that's always something that I do because I've been in situations where we needed a cash call and we had no cash available, so now we're really in hot water. So I do that anyway, but I think right now, especially just having those conversations like, "Hey, and just so you know, like this too shall pass. So you might not be in the best situation right now. Maybe cash flow is not happening. Maybe we're cash flow negative. But this too shall pass, right?" [00:26:06] So it, again, it comes in waves. It comes in cycles. And I think that's even more important at this point to discuss why investing on cash flow alone is just not a great strategy because if you buy a cash flowing property right now that can change in a year or two years or five years, right? [00:26:31] And vice versa. So right now you might buy it and it's not going to cash flow at all, but in two years or five years or eight years, then all of a sudden, "wow, we have a lot of cash flow happening." So everything comes in cycles, but it's important to understand cashflow is just one piece of the pie. It's not the entire pie. [00:26:48] Jason: Right. Like even great stocks will lose money in the short term.  [00:26:52] Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And real estate is a long term game. It's not, "I'm going to buy it today and sell it tomorrow and bank a million dollars." [00:27:00] Jason: Yeah.  [00:27:01] Sarah: Can you do that in certain situations? Absolutely. But is that going to be the normal experience that people have? No.  [00:27:09] Jason: Okay.  [00:27:10] Sarah: So I think yes, talking with your owners about the other pieces of the pie or pieces of the equation. "Well, let's look at the tax benefits that you get," right? Because a lot of times people don't even understand really what it means to be able to take your losses, losses on paper, from real estate to apply them to your active W 2 income. [00:27:38] So you can pay less in taxes just by owning a real estate, a piece of real estate. That's amazing, right? You're getting the depreciation. You're getting appreciation because even if it's not appreciating currently, it will over time appreciate. Every property over time appreciates. [00:27:55] It's just a general rule of thumb. So it might take a couple years to get the appreciation, but you will get it. And now you're building up equity in an asset that you can tap into later. And if your tenants are paying some or all of your mortgage for you, that's amazing. Where else can you get something where you're going to take out a loan on something, but somebody else is going to pay that loan for you? [00:28:21] Even if it's not all of it. Even if your mortgage is 2, 400 a month and you're like, well, the 1022, but then I have some other expenses on top of it. That's great. They're still paying a large chunk of your mortgage for you. And again, things change. So right now that might be your situation and you might not cashflow and that can change very quickly in the future. [00:28:43] Because again, back in 2020, 2021, people were cashflow and really great, especially if they had bought. If you buy in a dip and then things spike, you're sitting pretty.  [00:28:55] Jason: So maybe to sum it up with your existing owners, now is the time to help them build their ark right before the storm hits. With the intention for yourself to protect your portfolio, to protect your rent roll and to make sure that you keep that up and as healthy as possible. And You know, and look into, you know, there may be investors you have in your portfolio clients that you have that they're sitting on a bunch of cash. They're waiting for the deals to happen. And then you have investors that they're like kind of struggling. They're already like kind of the straw that breaks the camel's back might like float down and land on their back like any moment now. And so there may be opportunities to keep the properties in your portfolio, but move them over. [00:29:39] I've been hanging out a bit with the the founder of a blanket, which is a cool platform. Maybe we'll have them on the podcast here shortly, but there's different methods to keep your portfolio, even if the owners are changing. So you keep the properties. And so that's some things to be strategically thinking about as well. [00:29:58] So, well, I think we've covered several things. Is there anything else to prepare people listening for the doom and gloom, get them maybe focused on the positive.  [00:30:08] Sarah: Just in the height of the market, one of the strategies I used was tapping into my current investors. Is, "are you looking to pick up more properties?" Can I partner, you know, two or three investors together so that they're able to get more properties? And anyone who's looking to get out, can I shift that to someone else in my portfolio? And to get referrals. Like, "Hey, this is going well for you. Do you know anybody else that might be interested in doing this or might want to purchase a investment property or have already an investment property?" [00:30:42] So, and that, in the height of the market, that worked really well for me. So right now they would work even better. It would work even better. So even if you're like, "well, I only have like 20 clients and that's it." Plenty. That is plenty. You have an untapped gold mine. So if you want to be in doom and gloom and the sky's falling and "I'm never going to make any money and rent rolls are down and vacancies are longer and my investors aren't interested and people are losing money and I'm going to make less and oh, this sucks..." [00:31:18] Then you're absolutely right. That is the situation that you're going to create for yourself. But if you want to look at the opportunity that is staring you in the face and say, "what can I do with this and how can I capitalize on this?" that is where millions are made. So you can choose what you do with this weird time that we're in right now. [00:31:38] I know what I'm going to do.  [00:31:40] Jason: You know, during the Great Depression, some of the greatest companies were made. It was the companies that decided to double down on their marketing efforts doubled down on their growth experts and not put their head in the sand and freak out that the world and the sky is falling and so choose your frame I think sums up what Sarah's saying. [00:31:59] I think it's great mindset. Choose your frame. Either you're going to believe in the opportunity and see all the positives. Why is this positive? Figure that out or you're going to view this as a threat, be scared, kind of tighten up, And you're going to watch some people make a lot of money and pass you by and stack a lot of doors. [00:32:19] There's going to be a lot of opportunity for growing a property management business. I think a lot. So, and if you want to capitalize on that, reach out to us at DoorGrow. And I think that's that's it for today. So until next time to our mutual growth, everyone. And if you are interested in connecting with us, you can reach us at DoorGrow. com or check out our free online facebook group community at DoorGrow club. com. And we'll give you some free gifts for joining. And hopefully you'll get on a call and chat with us and we can figure out if we can help you grow and scale your business significantly. So until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. 

When hiring a new team member in your property management business, one common mistake can cause you to lose out on potentially the best candidates. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss why having experience in property management is not a necessary qualification for the people you hire. You'll Learn [01:11] The Myth of Needing Experience [04:19] More Important Than Experience: Culture Fit [13:59] You Need a Better Hiring System [19:17] What to do if You Struggle with Hiring Tweetables “If you don't even know what your culture is, how are you going to figure out if they match that?” “If they're not the right culture fit for sure you're overpaying or they're underperforming, either way, you're overpaying.” “Even if you hire based off of experience, you still have to train that person. That does not forego the training.” “If people are only loyal to a dollar, then yeah, you're at risk of losing those people pretty easily.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If they're not the right culture fit for sure you're overpaying or they're underperforming or either way you're overpaying.  [00:00:06] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:45] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, and Sarah Hull, co owner and COO of DoorGrow. [00:01:06] Now let's get Into the show.  [00:01:08] All right. What are we talking about today, Sarah?  [00:01:11] Sarah: I wanted to talk about this thing that keeps coming up and I've seen it two times in the last week is hiring on experience.  [00:01:21] Jason: Oh. [00:01:22] Sarah: Everyone goes, "Oh yeah, I would love somebody who's experienced and they already know the industry and they already know my systems and they know how to do things. And that would be fantastic." [00:01:32] Jason: People listening are going to go, "well, yeah, of course you want people with experience. It would be dumb to have people with zero experience, right?"  [00:01:38] Sarah: Wrong!  [00:01:39] Jason: Okay. Okay. So let's explain this. What are you talking about? [00:01:43] Sarah: All right, so the first thing that I'm going to say, as soon as I say it, it'll click right? If we are lucky to hire someone who's already familiar with the industry, who's working in the industry. Maybe they understand some of your tools, your software, perhaps some of your processes. You're narrowing your candidate pool to such a tiny little minutiae of a candidate pool. How many people do you think there are that have experience in property management that are now in the job market?. Right? Like, "Oh, I'm only going to hire somebody if they have experience in property management, or I'm only going to hire somebody if they understand how to use Appfolio." All right. So we went from here to here, tiny little segment of the market. [00:02:33] The other thing I'll say about this is if you find someone who has experience in the property management industry, and perhaps even in your software and your processes. Why is it that they're looking for a job? If they were so great, would someone not have snatched them up already?  [00:02:49] Jason: What if they get them to come from another company? [00:02:52] Like they convinced them? [00:02:53] Sarah: Let's talk about that. I'm glad you brought that up. I'm so glad. It was like this morning, we were having a conversation and I had mentioned this to one of our clients who's currently trying to hire people based off of experience. So here's the other problem, and we've seen this a couple of times, businesses stealing other businesses' team members and employees. There's one case that I'm thinking of in particular that kind of getting a little nasty. The two competitors are trying to take what they can, clients, team members, whatever they can, market share. They're just trying to take anything that they can from the other one. And one of them snatched the operator, which is really. [00:03:33] Not a good person to lose in your business.  [00:03:36] Jason: Yeah. No.  [00:03:36] Sarah: Why was that able to happen though? She had experience, right? So the new company is like, "Oh, this is perfect. She understands property management. She's got experience. She knows how to do this." [00:03:46] Jason: I mean, most entrepreneurs would think it's just about money because entrepreneurs always look through the lens of money. So they'll think, "well, she probably just got a better offer."  [00:03:54] Sarah: And in this case, I bet she did.  [00:03:56] Jason: Okay.  [00:03:56] Sarah: And the problem that we're overlooking here is we're skipping the most important part, which is looking to see if they're a culture fit. [00:04:06] And then the second most important part is looking to see, are they the right personality fit for the role. And then and only then do we want to look at their skill set and experience and do they have the intelligence level to be able to learn that particular task.  [00:04:18] Jason: Right? This is one of our frameworks, the three fits, culture fit, skill fit, personality fit, and culture fit, most important. [00:04:26] So, yeah, I agree. If people are not the right culture fit, then by default, you're overpaying for your team members, period. Because either they're underperforming because they don't really believe in your business or buy in. So their secret goal really is just to get paid as much as possible and probably do as little work as possible would be their ideal, right? [00:04:48] And so that's if they're not a culture fit. If they're a culture fit, they buy into the vision, they believe in you, they're excited to work for you. They want to have an impact. They have a motive besides just getting paid. And so, yeah, they're not a culture fit, it's guaranteed you're overpaying for that team member. [00:05:03] Because either they're crappy or you're having to like compensate them a bunch of money in order to keep them on board at your business because they really don't enjoy being there. So then you end up overpaying in order to keep them. And if people are only loyal to a dollar, then yeah, you're at risk of losing those people pretty easily. [00:05:22] Sarah: Absolutely. And that is why this particular operator was able to be swayed. So if you've got people who are a culture fit, if you've got people who really believe in the company, in you as the business owner, in the vision and the mission, where you are wanting to go and what you are wanting to build, if people are truly bought in and on board with that, that makes all the difference in everything that they do. [00:05:52] So can you hire somebody with experience who understands how to use Buildium or Propertyware or your phone system, whatever it is, and your ticket system? Yeah. And they can come in and they can do the job and it would be a night and day difference If you had somebody who truly believed in your company and you had to just train them to do those things and then they were able to do that, they're going to outperform the person who only has the experience every day of the week. [00:06:22] Jason: Okay. So can you share an example? Because you, you mentioned some clients were having issues with this. So like, let's tie this in with maybe a story.  [00:06:31] Sarah: Yeah. So it was just last week I was talking with Andrew and he had recently hired a couple of team members. I think he hired a BDM and an admin and there was maybe someone for maintenance. [00:06:43] I don't remember who the third one was. So he had recently hired these people. Already he's looking to replace them because either they're not working out or they're moving on. So his BDM, she is a real estate agent as well. And she's like, "Oh, well, I'm just actually going to go focus on real estate. I don't think I'm going to do all of this." [00:07:02] And it's been under maybe two months, maybe three months. So not a very long time. And he had mentioned to me, "yeah, so I've got this one person in mind and their experience." And as soon as he said experience, I went, "uh oh, okay. He's hiring the wrong way. He's hiring completely the wrong way." [00:07:20] So I had asked him, I said, "all right, so just out of curiosity, when you're talking with people, when you're looking at resumes and your screening candidates, what are the things that you're looking at? Like, what do you look at first?" And he's like, "well, I look to see, do they have experience in the industry? [00:07:35] And specifically, do they already know how to use my tools?"  [00:07:37] Jason: Yeah. So that's first. Yeah. That's a big red flag. And a lot of people listening might not get that, but that's a red flag.  [00:07:43] Sarah: Huge.  [00:07:44] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:44] Sarah: So aside from the fact that, like I said, your Canada pool is so tiny. I mean, if there is a person I would love to meet you, who, when you were in, you know, kindergarten and elementary who said, "Oh! When I grew up, I want to be a property manager. When I grew up, I want to be a leasing agent for a property management company. I would love to do that. That's my dream job."  [00:08:06] Jason: Right?  [00:08:07] Sarah: Who? That doesn't happen. Right? So people kind of work their way into property management, but it's not the dream that you typically have when you're a child trying to choose your career path. [00:08:20] Jason: Yeah. And that's because the industry as a whole has an awareness problem. There's not a lot of people aware of property management and there's plenty of roles in property management that different personality types would enjoy doing or would thrive in. But people are not thinking of the industry. [00:08:36] And so, yeah, looking for people with experience, I think would be really limiting,  [00:08:40] Sarah: yes, very challenging. So you need to find somebody who has experience in the industry that already will be hard. And then, even if they have experience in the industry, then you're going to say, "Oh, and they need to have experience with my specific tools and software that I use." [00:08:57] That becomes harder.  [00:08:58] Jason: Right. [00:08:59] Sarah: So I had said to him, I said, "well, all right, I have experience as a leasing agent. Would you hire me?" Because I might know how to do leasing. I do. I do know how to do leasing, right? But I know how to do leasing my way because when I was running my company, I knew how I did leasing. [00:09:17] But that doesn't mean I know how to do leasing your way. So even if you hire based off of experience, you still have to train that person. That does not forego the training. And a lot of times I think this is what happens is people go, "Oh, I would love to make my life easier and hire somebody, and then maybe I don't have to spend a whole lot of time training them on a tool or a system or how we do things because they already know how to do it." Even if they know the tool, they still don't know your processes. They don't know your way of doing things. So you will still have to train them. Now, it is possible that the training is easier if you don't have to explain how to use the tool, if they already know how to do it. [00:10:04] use it and they're familiar with it. Yes, that part of training becomes easier. It does not mean though that training will not still be a one to three month process, experience or not.  [00:10:17] Jason: Right. So, yeah, so you're saying a lot of people will try and hire somebody based on experience because they're trying to avoid having to take the time to train somebody. [00:10:27] Sarah: You can hire me. I can come into your business. And I can screw it up just as well as somebody who doesn't know what they're doing can. Why? Because even if I know how to use that tool, I know how to do it the way that I did it. I don't know how to do it the way that you do it yet. [00:10:45] I don't know your processes. I only know how I did leasing, and how I did leasing might be very different than how you do leasing. I know how I did sales, but that might be very different from how you do sales. I know how I onboarded clients, but that might be very different. I might do your leasing and you would go, "Sarah, what the hell? Why did this happen?" [00:11:09] "Well, I don't know. That's just how I used to do it." So if you hire someone who has the experience and has the knowledge, you still have to train them.  [00:11:18] Jason: Yeah.  [00:11:18] Sarah: And training is the most important thing that you can do when hiring. If you hire anybody and you completely forget or just choose not to train them. [00:11:30] It is going to be a train wreck.  [00:11:32] Jason: I think a lot of times as entrepreneurs we're in the mode of like doing things quickly and we're impatient. And so we get lazy sometimes when it comes to onboarding team members. We're like, "yeah, just, here you go. We throw them to the wolves." [00:11:45] Sarah: Baptism by fire. Yeah, figure it out. [00:11:47] Jason: Yeah. And lazy onboarding is not, a great strategy, right? It's going to take work regardless of the person that you bring on. And there's advantages when they don't have the skill or the experience in that you can make sure that they're doing it the way that you value and the way that you like. [00:12:05] So there can be a benefit.  [00:12:07] I think for sure if they're not the right culture fit for sure you're overpaying or they're underperforming or either way you're overpaying. If they're not the right personality fit for that particular role you'll just constantly be frustrated and training them and trying to onboard them will just be a demoralizing experience for you because it's impossible. [00:12:26] Like you'll be trying so hard to get them up to speed. And I think this is where people have experienced this and they're like, "well, I just need to go find someone with experience." But the real problem is they're not the right personality to do the job well. If somebody is the right personality, they would naturally be good at it. [00:12:41] They would be inclined towards doing it. You wouldn't have to motivate them or inspire them to do it. They would want to because they love doing it. It's aligned with who they are. And otherwise there's always going to be some serious friction. Culture and personality are off, there's going to be lots of friction. [00:12:57] And then even related to skill fit, if they're not intelligent enough to do the job, because some jobs require a little bit more Intelligence, right? You know, like the best team members are usually the best at problem solving. That's an intelligence challenge. You can give them all the skill, like here's the processes, et cetera. [00:13:15] But if they can't problem solve because they're an idiot, like then it becomes a real problem because you have to then do all the thinking. You need intelligent people. And so that's part of the skill fit. So you need all three. What's interesting about this. And we've talked about the three fits before on the podcast is you can't create culture, personality, or skill and intelligence. [00:13:37] Like you can't really create those. You have to go find it. You have to find somebody that has all three and just finding somebody that has one of the three is not going to be a fit. They have to be all three, or they can't be in your business. Or they're just going to be screwing things up and there's going to be so much friction so much waste. You're going to be spending way too much money. You're going to be spending way too much time trying to onboard them and it's going to be a mess. [00:13:59] Sarah: I agree.  [00:13:59] Jason: Cool So, in seeing these clients and people dealing with hiring, how do we solve that? How do we solve  [00:14:05] Sarah: this?  [00:14:05] You have to take the hiring process and flip it backwards. So the first thing you have to do is you have to determine if they're a culture fit for your business. But in order for that to happen, you have to know what your culture is and it has to be defined, which is why, and this is where people fight me, is when they want to implement DoorGrow hiring, they're like, "I desperately need to hire somebody. I need somebody like, please help me with hiring." Right.  [00:14:29] "Send me your cultural documents." [00:14:32] " Oh, I don't have those." [00:14:33] Sarah: "Then I can't help you find a good hire. I can't do it because it's Russian roulette." So if you don't have your culture defined, meaning I need your company core values. I need a decision making guide. [00:14:47] I need a client centric mission statement. I need your personal why, and I need your business why. Without those things, I cannot help you find someone who's going to be great because I will never know, nor will you, are they a good culture fit? If you don't even know what your culture is, how are you going to figure out if they match that? [00:15:06] Jason: So what you're saying is people need a better system. They need a hiring system. And most don't really have a good system. I guess everybody has a hiring system, it's just usually a pretty crappy one. Building intentionally a really intelligently designed hiring system, which is what we do with DoorGrow hiring is a game changer for a business because hiring is one of the biggest challenges I've seen even in multimillion dollar companies with friends. And this is something we've gotten really well dialed in a DoorGrow, but this is a constant challenge for most businesses. And until they figure it out... I was talking with one of our clients yesterday ,and he added like 114 doors in like the last month or so. And so he's just like, his business is growing crazily. [00:15:49] And he's this amazing client because he does everything we tell him to do. He's got an operator. Now they're using DoorGrow OS, like they're crushing it. And I was talking with him and his big challenge right now is maintenance technicians. He had four, he lost two. So he's now trying to hire and In having a conversation with him, I had to shift his mindset that he's no longer right now, a property management company. [00:16:14] That's the business he thinks he's in. And because he thinks he's a property management company, he doesn't want to focus as much on the hiring piece. That's not the business that he's in, but I had to help him see right now, the business that he's in, is in order to scale, this is his biggest constraint is he's going to consistently need to be bringing in more maintenance techs into his business. [00:16:36] And so I said to him, I said, "your business for right now, until you get this solved, your business is not a property management company. Your business is a maintenance technician talent acquisition company. That's the business you're in." And until he accepts that he can't solve this problem. And so most businesses, this is a big constraint. [00:16:55] And for him right now, it's the constraint. And once he gets this solved, once he gets this dialed in. So that he becomes good at hiring and onboarding and getting up to speed with maintenance technicians. And he was planning on just trying to replace the two. In coaching, and we were talking about, you need to bring on probably four. [00:17:13] You need at least four in order to find one, maybe two that are going to be good and give them a working interview where you have them do some work to see if they can perform. And this means he needs an engine where he's consistently every month bringing in a good amount of maintenance technicians and has a system for doing this. [00:17:31] And so. Businesses need if you're wanting to scale and grow quickly, you have to have systems in place. And one of the key ones is a really solid hiring system that allows you to get culture, personality, and skill. And that's what we've developed with DoorGrow hiring and DoorGrow ATS, our applicant tracking system. [00:17:49] And we talked about optimizing the ATS just for those particular candidates because they don't want to go through a more lengthy application process like we do with some candidates, you know, these maintenance techs and then vetting them through our AI assessments and stuff like this afterwards to assess them for problem solving because that's his biggest challenge. [00:18:06] He says, "my best maintenance techs are the problem solvers." I'm like, "that's an intelligence problem." So we have to figure out a way without doing illegal things, you know, or that you're not supposed to do you have to figure out a way to assess or figure out that they're intelligent. [00:18:21] And one way would be a working interview. Another way would be, you know, the AI assessment tool that can assess cognitive ability, you know, stuff like this. And that would come after he does a culture interview with them first. He was looking for skill and that's the challenge. [00:18:35] So it was good. Super common. Everybody always goes, Oh, I need skill. I need experience.  [00:18:41] Yes, and you do want people that have some experience would be great, but having people that have the intelligence level to absorb information quickly and to learn and the problem solve is way better than having somebody that has a ton of experience, but is terrible at adapting and is dumb. [00:18:59] Any day of the week. And so they will get up to speed and supersede somebody with a decade of experience if they're slow and not able to learn anytime. So, all right. This is a good topic. Anything else we should say about this?  [00:19:14] Sarah: That's what I got.  [00:19:14] Jason: All right, cool. Hopefully this was helpful for those of you listening. [00:19:17] If you're struggling with hiring. A lot of you have made these mistakes, right? You've hired, you've had people churn out. You're like, "it's hard to find good people." These are the excuses we hear from people that have a crappy hiring system. "There's no good people out there. It's tough in my market. We can't find good people. Millennials don't want to work," you know, but whatever, right? "I just pay people, why won't they just do what I f*cking tell them to do?" You know, whatever it might be. So, that's just a sign that you have a bad hiring system or that you just have terrible culture or you have bad onboarding. [00:19:50] Sarah: Or no culture.  [00:19:51] Jason: No culture to find. No culture. Yeah. And so, we need to get these things cleaned up in your business or your business is constantly going to be a prison for you. It's going to be really hard until you get a really good team and you have really good culture in your business defined, business is hard. [00:20:07] And this is where I see a lot of people get stuck between two to 400 units where they have an entire team and they're the most frustrated and usually the least profitable per unit they've ever been because it's the team and they can't see it. They're like, "I have a good team." You have a team that are willing to take your money, but are they a great team? [00:20:25] Super easy way to know... if you have an entire team and you've got two to 400 units or more, and you have been unable to scale it past 600 doors for the last three to five years, you've been kind of stuck there and you are still wearing hats that you do not want to be wearing. [00:20:43] And you're sometimes asking, "why won't my team think for themselves?" You're the problem. This is the problem. You are showing up as the wrong person in the business and you have bad culture and a bad hiring system. And if you want to get that solved, reach out to us at DoorGrow. This is very simple to solve. [00:21:00] It's not too difficult. And we can probably get most of that mess cleaned up in like a single quarter, like 90 days. So reach out to us. We'd love to help you out. You can check us out at DoorGrow.com. And if you're wanting more, if you stumble across this, maybe on YouTube or somewhere else, make sure to like, and subscribe and join our free Facebook community DoorGrowclub.Com. You can get to it by going to DoorGrowclub.Com. And until next time to our mutual growth by everyone. [00:21:26] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:21:52] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Join us for an insightful episode of the VRTAC-QM Manager Minute as Brittny MacIver and Sarah Clardy from the VRTAC-QM team share their expertise on case management systems. Brittny, an expert in Program and Performance within our Quality Management team, and Sarah, the Program Director for Fiscal and Resource Management, delve into best practices and the growing trend of states seeking to upgrade their systems. Learn about the nuances of state requests and the RFP process, and gain valuable knowledge to help you decide whether it's time to stay with your current system or make a move. Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music}   Brittny: Avoid over customizing the system. There's a lot of systems out there that are already available in VR agencies, and so if it works for that VR agency, there's a good chance the majority of the processes are going to work for your agency as well.   Sarah: Silos, how do we break down silos? And this process really can be a nice segue to combining program and fiscal together. I know we've said that multiple times, and I don't think we can say it enough. This process really is an opportunity to develop relationships.   Brittny: Be curious. Your agency may have a process that you're unsure why it exists. Some may say that's how it's always been. I think it's good to be curious, figure out the reason behind it, and see if there's a way that you can streamline those processes.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Today I'm thrilled to have two of my esteemed colleagues, Brittny MacIver and Sarah Clardy from the VRTAC-QM, joining me in the studio today. So, Brittny, how's it going for you?   Brittny: It's going great. How about you?   Carol: Awesome. I'm better for seeing your smiling face this morning. And how about you, Miss Clardy? How are you doing?   Sarah: I'm great. Great to kick off a new week.   Carol: Excellent. So for our listeners, Brittny serves on the program and performance side of our QM team. And Sarah is the program director for the fiscal and resource management side of our QM team. And both of these ladies have extensive experience with case management systems. And during one of our regular Core QM Team meetings, I asked the team, I'm like, hey, what are some potential podcast ideas? And Brittny said, you know what? There are a lot of state voc rehab agencies on a quest right now for a new case management system. Either your state is requesting you to do another request for proposal or you're just like, hey, is there something better out there? So with lots of new players that have entered the market, your case management system is a lifeline. And if it's not functioning optimally, it can really lead to some significant issues. So we just wanted to have a conversation today that can help to guide you through this journey with open eyes. So let's dig in. So of course our listeners always like to know, like how did you people get into VR? Everybody wonders, like what's your story? So I want to hear from each of you about kind of your journey into VR. So Sarah, I'm going to kick it off with you.   Sarah: So many of you know Ron Vessell, he's a staple around VR. Ron actually hired me back in the year 2000. I was a very green government accountant just starting out, didn't know what I was getting into, and they took a chance on a new, young professional. And so I did a deep dive early in my career and never looked back.   Carol: Very nice, I love that. How about you, Britt? How did you find your way into VR? You came a little different way.   Brittny: Yeah, I think it was definitely a unique path. I actually worked in criminal justice at the prison system as a counselor for quite some time. They were privatizing the position, which meant we were kind of losing benefits. We're no longer going to be a state employee. So I started looking around for other counseling positions. And at my time at the prison, I found that there was a lot of individuals with disabilities and a lot of obstacles that we had to address and assist with while we were there. And so when I seen the position at VR, I was very interested in it interviewed. And that's where I got my start about 14 years ago.   Carol: And which state was that in? Britt.   Brittny: That was in.Indiana.   Carol: Yeah. That's cool. I think that's great. So you worked with Teresa?   Brittny: Yes.   Carol: Very good.   Brittny: I always joke and say my four years at the prison. And then I have to clarify when I was working.   Carol: I love that. In fact, we had a guest last month that also had come up through the correctional system as well. It was really fun, but that definitely having that skill set behind you coming into VR is super important, really needed. So let's talk a little bit about your work. Both of you do for the QM. Just so our listeners have a little sense. And Britt, I'm going to start with you about that. Like can you give them a little flavor kind of for what you do in this TA world?   Brittny: Yeah, as you mentioned I work on the performance team. So really all things performance. But we help agencies address performance related needs. So this can be anywhere from training on performance measures to data analysis on performance data, reviewing policy procedures, internal controls and sometimes even assessing the system impact around performance and seeing how that impacts the reporting pieces.   Carol: Yeah, I love our performance team, the stuff you guys do, and you're so good at your analysis and really looking at taking that data and really digging in deep as to what's going on. So it's a very, very important piece of what is happening out there for our VR programs as we're delivering that technical assistance. How about you, Sarah?   Sarah: I have the great pleasure of leading the financial arm of the VRTACQM, and understanding that the VR award is the probably the most complex award within the grants management world. It really covers a wide array of skills and knowledge and isn't just financial based, it's also program based. So under the QM, we help agencies sort of manage the grant from the whole life cycle perspective, making sure that all the federal requirements are met, taking a look at individual state requirements, how those two things intersect, and we spend a lot of time, probably the majority of my time is actually spent in the period of performance arena, and specifically as it relates to this topic today with case management service systems.   Carol: Excellent. So, Brittny, you had mentioned the issue of people are looking for a new case management system. And I know as of late it feels like we've had at least a half a dozen folks saying, you know, we're doing a new RFP. We either have to for the state or we're going out for a new system. What advice do you have kind of off the bat for people who are considering venturing into this new RFP process?   Brittny: Yeah, I think before writing the RFP, I think it's important for the state or the agency to do some research on what systems are out there. A lot of agencies are writing an RFP based on what their current system does, and they end up with a very similar system. The process and all the hard work of getting a new system can be really exciting. It could mean new innovative features and easier case management process, which leads to improved efficiency, improve services and outcomes. You could find a system that would help with documentation times. You can reduce that, and then that way the counselor can spend more time with their participants. So I think just seeing what's out there and what's available to help you write that RFP is huge.   Carol: Sarah, how about you? What's your perspective on making sure those fiscal pieces are addressed as they are thinking about RFPing?   Sarah: Oh goodness. There's so many perspectives to consider here. I think first and foremost states need to understand period of performance. I feel like that's a term that we make really complicated. And it's really nothing more than just looking at the funding sources that are available and understanding the timeline that agencies can obligate and expend funds. So I think, first and foremost, understanding period of performance. The second key piece really is understanding state requirements. We have a lot of states that aren't either aware of what their state requires, or there are things that are in place that they think is required by the state. And when we start doing a deep dive into what that looks like, sometimes those things really aren't state requirements. It's something that somebody put into place years ago that everybody just thought was what was required. So I think understanding those two things. And then third, I would say understanding what your end game is when you're working with a fiscal and a case management system, and we're looking at just sheer fund accounting and tracking those funds all the way through and then being able to report at the end of that cycle. And so I oftentimes will tell states, if you kind of look at the end game, look at the reporting that's required at the end, it really kind of establishes the things that are necessary along the way in terms of system adaptations, structure, configuration.   Carol: So definitely I'm going to tie you two together when a state is going out and they're looking at doing the RFP, you want to really think about your complete process so that you've got all the right team members in place from the get go, which can't just be the program side of your house. And I remember us doing this back in Minnesota as we were going through the requirements. It's like, what are those fiscal people doing here? They're all important. Like you need all the pieces together, talking through how this system is going to work, how you're going to connect to your statewide accounting system. So that becomes really important. Now, I know I was on a call, I want to say within the last three, four months and we had a state say, yeah, we're thinking about RFP for a new system to go into place January 1st. And Brittny, I want to kick this to you. What is a realistic time frame if somebody is considering a new case management system, is it really possible to do that in, uh, maybe eight months or so or not? What do you think is a good timeline?   Brittny: I think this really depends on several factors as far as a timeline when considering a new case management system, typically it could take up to six months to develop that RFP. And it's really doing some background homework, seeing what's out there, doing a business process analysis and understanding your own business processes. But typically, I'd say depending on agency size, how many years of converted data you're looking at, converting it into the new system. And I know there's federal requirements, but there's also state requirements that are sometimes even longer than the federal ones. And then also if there's any interfaces. So if you have other systems that are connecting to your current case management system, this is going to make a huge difference, because now you've got a lot of different teams having to help out with the specifications and then also test the system. So you've got to think of their timelines as well. And then lastly just that preparedness piece. So how much work did you do up front on the RFP. How much have you analyzed your business processes. And like Sarah had mentioned, are these things that somebody put into place ten years ago, or are these things that are actually a state policy or a federal policy that you're aligning with? I think the typical timeline that I typically see is around 18 to 24 months for the full implementation once you sign in that contract. But again, that could range short or longer depending on that prep work and then that agency size and things like that.   Carol: So eight months is probably a little aggressive.   Brittny: Yeah very, aggressive yeah. But optimistic I like it.   Carol: I love it. So what are some pitfalls that we want to help our listeners avoid as they're kind of tackling this process? And Sarah, I'm going to kick that to you first.   Sarah: First and foremost. And I think the listeners are probably going to see a recurring theme here, as Brittny said, not just taking current system functionality and developing that into a checklist or using that to develop the specifications. I think really sitting down and outlining what are the requirements, what are the things that we're using right now? Where did that come from? And the possibilities going into this process allows a lot of opportunity to think outside the box and think about what are the things that systems currently aren't doing, or things that are requiring a lot more work right now where we could really get creative and do some really cool things. So I think avoiding the pitfall of just not spending that time up front to understand what it is that agencies need, and then also, again, bringing fiscal and program together to understand the requirements from a physical standpoint. A lot of times that is kicked to the finance folks in the House, we're still seeing in a lot of agencies a breakdown or a gap between program and fiscal, and there's a lot of danger and not bringing those two teams together to understand on both sides of the coin, what is it that we need to do? Oftentimes within that space is where a lot of the creative ideas come out and allow greater efficiencies within the agency and more internal controls.   Carol: Very good. Britt, what do you think about pitfalls? What are some things that we could help our folks avoid?   Brittny: Yeah, I once talked to a chief technology officer and he said the two main reasons why usually a case management system implementation fails is because of fiscal and data validation. So hitting those two pieces very hard, making sure that you're not only converting the data into the system, it's almost like that toy where you've got a round circle and you've got to fit it in the round circle. The data conversion doesn't always work like that, and sometimes you're trying to fit that round circle into a square peg. And that's because the way the systems line up. So making sure that you've got individuals on the front end in different roles, looking at that data and then also testing that RSA 911 to make sure things are mapped correctly and going in correctly before you go into production. At one example I've seen of that is significance of disability. And so one system may calculate significance of disability a little bit differently than another system. And even though they've got everything mapped together, doesn't always go hand in hand and can cause some major issues. The fiscal piece, I think Sarah mentioned that quite a bit, but just making sure that you're doing heavy testing and understanding how the system will work, especially when you go into production. Working in a new system, the biggest ones are dealing with authorizations that already have partial payments on it, draft authorizations, pending payments, amending an authorization, and vendor logic. These are all pieces that may be different in that new system. So making sure you're testing every angle and you're prepared for that transition. I think a third suggestion is just my personal preference would be to avoid over customizing the system. So there's a lot of systems out there that are already available in VR agencies. And so if it works for that VR agency, there's a good chance the majority of the processes are going to work for your agency as well. And sometimes those states like to over customize that system just because they want to have what they've always had. But that ends up being sometimes pretty expensive down the road, because then you're paying for additional testing and maintenance of that customization. So I'd be open minded to changing business processes, or see if you could find your business processes met in a different way and achieving that same result.   Carol: Yeah, I like it. I remember when we had our new case management system and it was built. We went in with all our partners, our WIOA partners, and so we had this kind of groovy new system, but it was supposed to meet all these different needs. Well, it gets complicated, but we couldn't forget about our field people because a lot of those folks in the field. So while you're talking to program, you know, a lot of times it's supervisors and different folks are involved. Having those direct field staff, your VR techs and your counselors who are inputting stuff every day and they're like, hey, this weird thing over here, you know, they may not talk techie, but they can explain the stuff that isn't working so well in getting all of those ideas right from them so they can see, hey, they really can help to impact and influence the system is important.   Brittny: Definitely.   Sarah: You know, Carol, along the lines of what Brittny just shared too, I think there's a caution there in terms of customizations that are in existing systems, whether it's an off the shelf system or a homegrown system. We have a number of agencies that have their own in-house systems. Sometimes there are customizations that work for a particular state or might work for a group of states, but it's not applicable to all states. Again, because we go back to those state requirements. And then sometimes when agencies implement that, it causes some compliance issues because of their own local procurement standards. So asking the question, you know, if they're developing those specifications and not just taking everything from what they're doing or is offered to them currently, but really looking at it with a cursory eye to determine, is this something that we need or we even can use because we're seeing period of performance compliance issues from some system functionalities that are in place that worked for other states that aren't necessarily a one size fits all.   Carol: I think one thing I've noticed too, and I just noticed from the periphery, you know, it's really statewide IT systems and the IT groups have been put together. You know, we see that consolidation happening where you may have had your own IT folks that you were dealing with, and now you have a State Department of IT or something. There's some other consolidated area that has put together different processes or requirements. So I think for some folks, if you're used to maybe the old way when you were entering into this process and maybe doing an RFP and you had more control over everything, you may have a little less because you do have now these sort of statewide IT system requirements. And so it's really important to get hooked up with those folks as well, especially for listeners who may have not done this for a while. Maybe, you know, it's been a long minute since you have looked at your case management system, and you were remembering back a decade ago when it was a little easier. You could just do something a little more at the drop of a dime. But I think the benefit that having those statewide IT groups is they have so much experience. And when they're looking at how they really address putting out an RFP and they can have a lot of their expertise to bring to the table to make sure this gets put together really well. You just want to remember that you may have some other things in play that you didn't have a long time ago. Just a thought. Alright, I know Brittny, when we were talking to you, had some ideas on cool stuff and I love cool stuff. Like, you know, if you're doing your case management system, you said, well, gee, don't, don't just recreate the same old thing like you want to put cool things in place. So do you have ideas like new technology or features or things people could include in their request?   Brittny: Yeah, I've seen dashboards where there's visual dashboards and graphs or pie charts that assist the counselor and case management. So seeing how many individuals they've got enrolled in an education program and how many of those individuals have earned an MSG in the last performance year. And this allows them to check those that haven't and reach out to those participants. I've also seen a central print and mail where the state's just actually the agency put a checkbox in there, and they've got an interface with a local company and that company, they hit the checkbox and everything gets bashed up that night for a letter or anything that they want to mail. And there's a mass every night they mail out all these letters. So that way the counselor could be anywhere. They could be at the school, out in the field, anywhere, mail out a letter, and not have to worry about printing something off and stuffing that envelope. I've also seen invoice payment systems. So systems where vendors can apply to be a vendor, they can document what services agree to terms, things like that. The agency can review them and approve them in there. And then that system can work back and forth with authorizations and payments. So an authorization could be drafted in the case management system could shoot over to this invoice payment system. That vendor can view it, upload documents, invoice against it, put reports and things like that in there, and they can communicate back and forth to one another. I've also seen states exploring various ways to integrate artificial intelligence and case management systems. So I know you did a podcast on one that was kind of outside the case management system, but I'm hearing a lot of states be interested in how to integrate it in the case management system, whether it's in case notes or informed decisions across. So I'm really excited to see what states come up with and how they're able to integrate that within. But I think that's a great idea.   Carol: I love that whole area of artificial intelligence. It was super fun when we did the podcast with Washington General, because they had that really cool piece that was, you know, an add on. It was kind of outside of the system. But boy, the staff love it. But there's a lot of possibilities. I know we were kicking around on the team about ways you could use AI within VR. I mean, when you think about the development of plans, even the way you speak about things, to make it more plain language, and I still I think people are so freaked out a little bit about AI and you go, gosh, it's all over. You know, it is in our whole world. It's when you're talking to Siri or Alexa, you know, every day you go to the airport and you're getting your eyes scanned to get through, Clear whatever you may do. It's just integrated into everything we do. I think that is a really fun, developing new area that has a lot of possibility for the case management systems. Sarah, did you have any ideas too, about any cool possible groovy tools? Maybe fiscally related? I didn't mean to put you on the spot.   Sarah: No, that's okay. We haven't seen as much innovation on the fiscal side, although I think that there are a lot of opportunities. I think, again, in the AI world, I think mapping that out, looking for the possibilities, it goes back to what I said earlier, just being an innovative thinker and looking at what are the challenges and efficiencies that we're battling and what are some of those possibilities that we can use to address that. Staff recruitment retention continues to be a challenge in our VR world and especially in the fiscal arena. And as staff look to bolster their internal controls and the program at large, looking for some of those opportunities. So I don't know that I have as many cool things like Brittny shares, but I'm hoping that we'll see those on the horizon.   Carol: Yeah, me too. I think there's a lot of possibility out there now. I know Sarah, you had developed a tool that coincided with the 2023 spring CSV conference because a lot of folks were asking like, okay, what do I do with my case management system and the fiscal requirements and all of that? Can you talk a little bit about that? Because even though we felt like we widely publicized it, people are still like what? There was a tool. I don't know anything about it.   Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm still excited about it. So we developed a fiscal technology checklist for case services last year in conjunction with the period of performance training that we offered at the conference. And we found that in our technical assistance to state VR agencies around this topic, there's a gap in communication between either the CMS companies and VR, or even if an agency has their own internal program, a gap in communication between the program and fiscal and whoever those IT experts are. So we took that opportunity to map out all of the areas to consider. And so when we're working with agencies under the VRTAC-QM to analyze their processes and look at how their systems are set up, there's a linear fashion and way of looking at that. For instance, is the system set up on a state fiscal year or a federal fiscal year? There's a lot of agencies that have a system set up on a state year that really doesn't make sense for reporting, and it's causing a lot of challenges on the financial side with producing reports for the RSA 17, for example. And they thought that that's the way they had to have it set up. There's very few states that have very state specific requirements that would necessitate that. So it's not that it never would work, but it involves sort of a deep dive into why do we have our systems set up and is that necessary? The other big piece are the budgets. How are budgets set up within the system? Does it map out to the available fund sources that are available to the agency? And then there's a ton of bells and whistles that act as internal controls in the back of a case management system that really dictate how the system behaves and helps the agency navigate through period of performance. And so it's going through a whole list of considerations to make sure that the agency is well equipped to manage period of performance, manage those different fund sources and make them able to do that reporting at the end. So it's a really good list. And honestly, as states are struggling with that communication piece, particularly with the companies that they work with or through the process to develop a new case management system, it's a very nice way of considering all of those different elements that need to go into either evaluating the current system or looking at a new system to make sure that it's meeting exactly what their state requires while still taking into account those federal requirements. So we're constantly reverting folks back to that list, and hopefully agencies are taking the time to sit down as a team and combining the program and fiscal staff to walk through that, to make sure that they understand all of those elements. And if they have questions, we have a number of trainings that we offer through the VRTAC-QM to assist with that. We've even had some agencies seek out that training before they start developing those lists for their RFPs, to make sure that they both understand from a physical standpoint what all those requirements are. So anyway, it's Fiscal Technology Checklist for Case Services. It is on our website, I'm sure. Carol, you're probably going to mention that and hint, hint it is available to the public. So I know that there's been some current CMS companies that have gone out and looked at that piece also, so that they can better understand and hopefully fill in the gap for that communication gap exists so that everybody's talking the same language and on the same page.   Carol: Yes, of course, I have to make a shameless plug for our lovely website. So you will go to vRTAC-QM.org and we have a top navigation header. You can go right to resources and everything's listed under the CSAVR Spring 2023 Session Recordings and Materials. And it actually was Session Two is where you can find that checklist. But if you scroll through you can actually listen to Sarah's session recording. And then you can see the checklist there as well, as well as all of our other awesome sessions from the 2023 Spring Conference. Oh, thanks for that. So how about other words of wisdom from you fine ladies? Because I think of you both as just like, oh my gosh, such powerhouses in the case management system. Brittny, I'm going to go to you first.   Brittny: I've got a few. I think the first one is to be curious. Your agency may have a process that you're unsure why it exists. Some may say that's how it's always been. So I think it's good to be curious, figure out the reason behind it, and see if there's a way that you can streamline those processes. I would also allocate staff specifically for this project, and I think we mentioned it already a little bit earlier. But looking at those projects subject matter experts and making sure you've got the right people at the table. So this is going to be administration, IT, but also your fiscal people, your front end people. It's really important to make sure that you have some direct service or direct field staff that are knowledgeable and have a long agency history that you can integrate into that project as well, and they can provide feedback. I would also have a designated project manager that could be somebody. You within your department, or that could be somebody that you decide to contract out. But I think it's important that they have that project management experience because it is a giant project, and it is going to take quite some time to get from that RFP contract to implementation. I'd also weave in changes as much as you can. So during the project, you'll start to have the opportunity to see the differences between the two systems, your current one and your new system. And so if there's any way that you can weave in changes early and often, this will help that transition for staff much, much easier. And then also as you're preparing or updating revising business processes, that also helps with that piece of it. I've seen states do statewide quarterly demos to kind of show staff the new system and help them kind of process that change along the way. And lastly, I would definitely emphasize not to overlook accessibility. I'd pull in your accessibility users early to begin testing the system, and then also integrating those accessibility terms into training documents. I think one thing I learned is that using language accessibility language is huge. I couldn't imagine trying to learn a new system and somebody saying, use a dropdown box. But yet my system is calling it a combo box. So using that terminology and making this transition much easier for all staff.   Carol: Awesome points. I want to highlight a couple, that be curious. I can't emphasize that enough. There are so many agencies where I'm going to call it urban Legend. You're doing something because everybody always says, RSA said. You have to do that and RSA will come out. I've been in monitoring. They're like, we never told you that. Whatever that is in your system, you made that up like you made that happen. So I love that being curious because you want to ask questions. A lot of times you just go with the flow. You know, somebody put it in play 20 years ago and then you just keep bringing it forward. So I love that. And definitely when you talk about dedicating staff, you want to make sure you dedicate those staff, but you also want to think about all of the other roles that have been assigned to that person. You cannot put them as the project manager of this whole project, and they're still maintaining all their field services duties and doing all the other stuff, because this really is a full time job. And I know I'm going to apologize right here to Natasha Jerde. We had her as a project manager for our new case management system. At the same time, she's, you know, rewriting our policy and procedure manual and doing a million other things because I just had zero clue at how much went into this. And that was really it's really terrible. And I've actually seen some of the staff across the country burn out. We've had people retire early. They're like the case management system process killed me. So when you're dedicating staff, please do give them some time to do it. And don't expect that they're not going to work an 80 hour workweek because that is not so fabulous. But I loved your points, Brittny, those are great. How about you, Sarah? Any words of wisdom?   Sarah: Yes, thank you. I think we constantly hear from state agencies about silos. How do we break down silos? And this process really can be a nice segue to combining program and fiscal together. I know we've said that multiple times in our discussion today, but I don't think we can say it enough. This process really is an opportunity to develop relationships and I know even from the agency that I came from, the introduction that I had to the program side was through a new case management system conversion. And at first I showed up at the table. And Carol, like you said earlier, people were like, who invited her? Why is she here? Does she need to be here? People wouldn't talk and share ideas. And then as we both committed to developing that relationship and understanding one another better, not only did we end up with a quality product, but we had quality services, we had better management and leadership within the agency. So looking at it as an opportunity sort of through that lens, engage the folks in the field as well. Sometimes as leaders, we tackle these types of projects and we think the folks in the field are too busy. And really the best ideas can come from our counselors and those individuals who are supporting in those roles our field staff, our fiscal agents. And I know we have a separate training on that that we offer VR agencies, but engaging them in that process and getting their ideas on, hey, what's working and what's not working? What are the challenges that you're facing so that as you are curious to Brittny's point, you're taking into consideration maybe some of those wins that you can secure on the other side and maybe cut out some process or things while still meeting those requirements and engaging in those efficiencies. The other thing I would offer, and we're having lots of discussions now about fiscal forecasting and spending strategies within VR agencies, as VR agencies are getting over the hump of Covid and taking a look at what their spending looks like, the case management system really is a system of record. And as we look at the statewide accounting system and in its function, we can't ignore the case management system and the role that it plays in navigating through all those fiscal requirements. And so if we think about the CMS sort of as the VR checkbook, and when we are authorizing for services and obligating funds, not only are there requirements around how to do that and how to capture that, looking at the individual sources of funds that we have available, it really is a way to capture those obligations within a checkbook so that we can take a look at any point in time from a leadership standpoint, what is our financial position? And so being able to look at how much do I have in my 23 carryover checkbook and how much do I have in 24. And plan ahead so that I can make decisions around re-allotment and I can think ahead so that we're not leaving funds on the table and lapsing funds at the back end of our of our award. It really is important that we look at how we capture all of that in the case management system in a way that allows us to continue managing our programs with a strong fiscal focus. So tying all of that in is also important at a higher level, so that we can use the data to make quality financial decisions.   Carol: Well said, well said. So in case our listeners want to get a hold of either of you, would you mind sharing your email address, Brittny?   Brittny: Yes, definitely. My email address is bMacIver So m a c I v e r@sdsu.edu. It's also available on our VRTAC website. If you go to our staff you'll see my email address there as well.   Carol: Excellent. Sarah, how about you.   Sarah: Yes thank you. It's sClardy. so, that's s c l a r d y at Sdsu.Edu.   Carol: Thanks so much I appreciate you both joining me today. Have a great one, you guys.   Brittny: Thanks.   Sarah: Thank you.   {Music}   Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

As property managers you likely know a little bit about mortgages. But do you know about non-QM loan strategies and how your clients and investors can utilize them? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with Matt from Nexa Mortgage to talk about using non-QM strategies to unlock your portfolio's potential. You'll Learn [05:46] QM loans VS non-QM loans [16:14] Why Jason and Sarah went with non-QM [22:07] Which one should you choose? [26:46] Why should property managers know this? [32:23] What about long-term rentals Tweetables “If you have a great manager, it makes sense to get as many properties as you possibly can, knowing that they are in good hands and they are being taken care of because all you're doing is printing money.” “If you have a way that you can help your investor clients get what they want, which is more deals, it's a win.” “If you are a property manager, you should also be an investor in real estate.” “It's great to manage properties and let's do that and build wealth ourselves.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: He said, "I am not joking. I had to submit over 100 documents to the company in order to just see if I'm qualified to get this additional loan. And he's like, I just feel like there has to be an easier way." And there is, but sometimes people don't know about that.   [00:00:20] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:39] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the CEO and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:23] All right. And today we're hanging out with Matt Dean of Nexa Mortgage, and we're going to have an interesting conversation about financing and loans and I don't know, and some other stuff, but Matt welcome to the show.  [00:01:36] Matthew: Good morning. [00:01:37] Good morning. Thanks for having me.  [00:01:38] Jason: It's good to have you. So give us a little bit of background of how you got into the whole real estate industry and give people a little bit of background on you.  [00:01:49] Matthew: Sure. So, after I graduated from college, which I went to college in Missouri, I ended up moving to Austin, Texas, and one of the first jobs I got was with a commercial finance company and that landed me in Lakeway, which is where I reside now, and have been for over 15 years. But the commercial finance company that I worked with was was a fairly new company that came in from California. The owners Had a mortgage background and had gotten into this commercial finance division. [00:02:15] They had sold off a couple of mortgage companies opened up this division and Lakeway. They were also land developers and commercial finance guys. So they saw a lot of opportunity out here and opened up this company. So anyway, I got in on the ground floor. They were relocating the company here and had a couple year run with that. [00:02:31] And then in early 2000, the .Com kind of came in and blew up that whole industry. So what we were doing was commercial finance, equipment finance really, and at the time it was a lot of computer equipment and I was working with a lot of Dell sales reps that were taking over some of their overflow that Dell didn't want to finance. [00:02:49] So, when all that happened, and it blew up the owners who had the mortgage background really saw that "hey, we're going to see a refinance run here. The market's going to crash rates are going to come down. There's going to be a run." And so they immediately just flip. They had a mortgage company here, but it wasn't early. It was dormant. Yeah. And they flipped it open and and just started building that company out. And so that's ultimately how I got into the mortgage business. And, right after that, we had this really big refinance run. We grew that company very quickly to about 35 employees where we were doing 300 to 400 loans a month with a fairly small company. [00:03:27] And that just, jump straight in and learn the business. And so then in about 2007 ish, 2006 ish, I really got exposed to the investment world, so to speak. I got partnered up with a real estate brokerage here in Austin that focused on investment properties and primarily what they were focusing on was duplexes. [00:03:47] And so that year in 2006, I believe it closed 152 duplex transactions, and it was mainly California investors coming into Austin. And it really just changed my whole perspective of the mortgage industry as opposed to first time buyers or veterans, which I enjoy working with all those folks, but the commercial or the investment world, it's a different animal in that it's less emotion and more about business. And so I really just gravitated more to working with investors, started buying properties myself managed a few properties myself and then, evolved from there. But I worked with that same group and Lakeway for about 12 years and then moved around a couple of places and work for a builder and and a couple other companies. [00:04:29] But anyway, that's how I got in it, got started.  [00:04:31] Jason: Yeah, so you've seen it from a few different angles than the whole real estate investment industry, sounds like. [00:04:37] Matthew: Yeah, I've been through a few of these cycles of ups and downs. Obviously the refinance run early on was, really interesting, but a lot of good, easy money on the table, so to speak, but then we had the crash, which was a very difficult time for a couple of years, although, Austin weathered that storm pretty well relative to a lot of other areas of the country. [00:04:56] So, even though our volumes were down, our real estate didn't see as big of an equity loss and the job market here in Austin's always been really strong. So, it pulled us back out of it fairly quickly. We're in a situation now where rates are high and property values have gone up. [00:05:11] And it's a challenge for some folks here to purchase. A lot of folks are just priced out of the market and can't afford it. And property taxes aren't helping that situation.  [00:05:19] Jason: Yeah,  [00:05:20] Sarah: It's so pricey here. So pricey.  [00:05:22] Matthew: But we're starting to see a little bit of pull back on the values and the houses. It's a little bit more of a buyer's market now, but it still needs to come down a little bit, I think in my opinion, it's to balance the market again.  [00:05:34] Jason: Interesting. So the topic today is unlock your portfolio potential, non QM strategies for real estate investors. And for those that don't know what QM is, which I don't. So educate me. What's QM?  [00:05:47] Sarah: So I handled all of this stuff and Jason got to the closing table and he's like, "I'm an owner in the LLC, right?"  [00:05:54] Matthew: It's like, yeah, I barely talked to you along the way, but anyway, yeah, so let's talk a little bit about QM and how that all started. So, after the real estate crash in the 2006, 2007, eight ish area the CFPB was formed a consumer finance protection bureau, which took over the regulation with the mortgage industry. [00:06:12] It took them a few years, but in 2014 they implemented what was called TRID, which you may have heard that word, but it was where we got rid of the good faith estimate and integrated the new loan estimate and closing disclosure took over. And at that same point in time, the regulations came out and then classified conventional loans or reclassified them as qualified mortgages. [00:06:35] What that means really is the CFPB was trying to put protections in place to protect consumers and also strengthen guidelines to make sure that people or buyers had the ability to repay. So what that really meant was additional restrictions on ability to repay, debt ratio requirements, reserve assets, et cetera. [00:06:55] So, if you do a conventional loan, which is Fannie, Freddie. Those are considered qualified mortgages. They have additional protections in that you're maxed at the amount of fees you can charge a buyer. The APR has to be within guidelines within a maximum. So all those things are really for consumer protection, right? [00:07:14] At the same time, what caused the market crash before was what subprime mortgages. And so at the time, subprime mortgages initially had a place in the market. They really were good for investors because investors were putting money down, they had good credit typically, and they had reserve assets. [00:07:35] When the market shifted, and they started using subprime loans to qualify buyers for primary residences that really had no business buying homes is where it got in trouble. So after QM was announced or came out with CFPB, then they also had non QM loans. What that means is any loan that falls outside of the qualified mortgage guidelines, for whatever reason, can still be funded or it would fall within non QM. [00:07:59] Non QM just meant if you're a lender who does those type of loans, you're now required to hold additional reserve assets in your bank or your mortgage company per loan to cover for the potential higher risk and default.  [00:08:12] Jason: Okay.  [00:08:13] Matthew: And it took a few years from 2014. The market started to come out with products in 2015. [00:08:18] The industry was really not sure how to handle it. A lot of banks didn't want to even dive into it. And then it started to evolve. And "okay, there's a big market here." So now it's one of the fastest growing segments of the market and banks have realize or figured out how to meet the ability to repay guidelines with alternative methods, right? [00:08:41] So you don't have to have W2s and tax returns and pay stubs, which a conventional QM loan would require. Now, they look at different factor, like, 12 months business bank statements. I can look at a CPA prepared profit and loss statement, I can look at just the rent income on the property and that's what's classified or called DSCR. [00:09:03] And then also it's asset based loans where we just look at the asset and we turn the asset into a revenue stream. So that's really how non QM started and really what it is. It's just an alternative way of qualifying the mortgages that falls outside of the Fannie Freddie conventional type of loans. [00:09:21] Jason: Got it.  [00:09:21] Sarah: So what does that mean for investors? Because we have some investors that listen to us and we have some property managers who work with investors. So what would that mean for an investor that is looking to get into more investment properties?  [00:09:39] Matthew: Yeah, absolutely. So, the challenge that a lot of investors run into is a lot of them are self employed and a lot of them start accumulating property. [00:09:48] So if they fall into either one of those categories, either they're self employed. Or they've accumulated a lot of properties or both, right? The challenge becomes with qualified mortgages is from an income perspective, right? So good CPAs are going to try and shelter income for self employed borrowers and for investors by showing, minimal profits or minimal or losses on their properties. [00:10:11] And so, as investors start to accumulate more properties, it becomes more challenging to qualify for conventional loans, because for every property on a conventional loan, Fannie and Freddie want additional reserve assets. So that means you start getting 6 properties, you need assets for each one of those properties on top of down payment funds for the purchase property and the reserves on that property. [00:10:33] So, from two perspectives, either an income perspective, where we have a challenge again, a self employed borrower shows losses on his tax returns for the last 5 years by design, because he doesn't want to pay taxes, or we've got multiple properties also showing losses when I'm looking at income on a conventional loan basis, I have to use the income from the tax return. [00:10:52] So losses can be a problem. Also, the reserve requirements, so, taking into those two scenarios, you've got a self employed borrower that, let's say they, they have gross revenue of half a million dollars, but they're showing losses of, 50-60-70,000 dollars. We're just looking at 12 months bank statements in that case, which gives us gross revenue and then we back out of a factor of say, 25 to 30 percent for taxes and we use that as revenue or income to qualify. If we have an investor that, let's say, not necessarily self employed they have multiple rental properties that are basically just, showing losses and now their income is diminished to where they can't qualify. [00:11:32] Then we have the debt service coverage ratio programs. Like, we utilize with your property where we're looking at just the rent on the property. Right? So the rent the market rent or the short term rental just needs to cover the principal interest, taxes, insurance and fees. And so those are 2 products that we use and that's really how, I would say it helps investors in those scenarios. [00:11:54] The other products that we could look at are P& L products meaning that ACPA provides a P& L statement, and then we can use that income, or if they have significant assets just in investment funds and whatnot, we can turn that into a revenue stream. But the bottom line is it just eliminates the need for W 2s, tax returns, or pay stubs, and we look at other alternative income sources to qualify. [00:12:18] Sarah: It's funny. I was actually on Instagram the last week, I think. And there's this guy, he has a very large account and I can't remember his name. And he's very big on investing in real estate. And he said, "guys, like, I just need some help. I like I'm going through this whole process and you jumped through 10, 000 hoops." and he said, "I am not joking. I had to submit over 100 documents to the company in order to just see if I'm qualified to get this additional loan. And he's like, I just feel like there has to be an easier way." And there is, but sometimes people don't know about that. I still talk to investors and property managers and they don't know. [00:13:02] They're like, "I'm just too conventional. That's like what you do. That's like the normal thing that we're all trained and used to doing." So just knowing that there are other options that don't require all of these crazy hoops to jump through and all of this documentation and lots of red tape and underwriting. [00:13:22] It's not that it's eliminated. It's just that it's a lot easier of a process and especially if you're a savvy investor that takes a loss on your taxes, just because your tax return shows a loss, it doesn't actually mean that you're losing money, right? So there's a big difference there. So that plays a big part too. [00:13:43] Matthew: Yeah, there are investors. Sorry. I didn't mean to jump in there, but there are definitely investors that lean on that from a documentation standpoint. Right? They've been down this road. They have multiple properties and more properties, you have the more documentation you need to provide to try and qualify for those conventional loans and it just becomes more and more challenging. [00:14:00] And, even more so if you have a loan officer on the front end of that's trying to originate a loan, that isn't really versed in investment properties and doesn't know how to underwrite the tax returns, they can get in trouble. They look, "oh, I got good credit. I've got down payments." But when you try and pull together tax returns and the income from multiple properties and business losses and this and that, it becomes very complex. And it's honestly, a lot of loan officers don't even know how to look at that correctly. And so they just throw the file up. It goes to underwriting. And then 2 weeks later, they've got a problem. But I just closed a deal actually yesterday and it was ended up going non QM short term rental. And the gentleman is great credit owns his own businesses, owns multiple properties and schools here, but the documentation, because he owns, like, 8 companies and probably 7 or 8 rental properties, and he had a partner in this particular property that, It became so complicated with trying to pull some of that stuff together and also with the partner who wasn't necessarily as strong as him where it just made sense for us to go short term rental and move on. [00:15:07] And that's what we did. So we just made it easy. He was happy that he didn't have to continue to jump through all those hoops. And we were able to get the property done and close in about two and a half weeks.  [00:15:17] Jason: You said it made sense to go short term rental. You meant to go non QM. Is that what you meant? [00:15:21] Matthew: To go non QM. Yeah. We went short term rental income, which is non QM to qualify the income on the property. This happens to be a short term rental down on the Comal River and it's got great income. It just he had a private money loan on it when he purchased it needed to refinance the note was coming due and he just has a very complex financial situation. [00:15:43] And he got involved with a partner on this property that also created some challenges with that particular situation and just made it a lot easier to use him and go non QM short term rental income only and just get it done.  [00:15:54] Jason: So, would that be a DSCR loan going on the short term rental income? [00:15:59] Or is that different?  [00:15:59] Matthew: Yes, it is technically a DSCR loan, which means debt service coverage ratio. And this is what we utilize with your property as well, by the way. we're looking at either long term rents.  [00:16:10] Jason: We should tell that story, by the way, everyone listening has no clue. [00:16:13] Sarah: I know, right?  [00:16:14] Jason: Why don't we have Sarah explain like why we went this route, how we ended up talking with Matt and like how this all worked out.  [00:16:21] Sarah: Okay, let's do that. So, Jason, oddly proudly, he's like, "I've never owned a rental property and I've never managed a rental property. And I do this now." And I said, "this is nothing to be proud of. Like you're 46, you should own things. You should have assets." So like I, on the other hand, like I had, in my twenties, I started investing in real estate. So, Jason and I for a while have been saying like, "when are we going to get one together?" [00:16:48] Because we didn't have one yet and he never had one.  [00:16:51] Then also our circumstances in life have changed a little bit. And we thought " we need an additional property at this point." And we were in a unique situation where right now in Austin, I'll just start by saying long term rental is hard to make it make sense financially. [00:17:10] You're probably not going to cashflow.  [00:17:13] Jason: Yeah.  [00:17:13] Sarah: Not right now. Anyway, it's just, it's really hard because prices are high. And interest rates are also high. This is where we are. So we couldn't have possibly done a long term rental anyway, because we needed the property to have some personal use on it. [00:17:28] And we decided, "Hey, let's also use it for some of our DoorGrow events." Because every time that we do an event, We pay somebody else.  [00:17:37] So let's pay ourselves through that. So for that reason, it only can really be used as a short term rental property. So we decided, "Hey, there's these kind of three components." [00:17:48] And I'm really big on asset protection, meaning I need the property to be owned and deeded and financed in an LLC. So originally I was working with another agent. We've worked with him before on our primary home. He's a really great agent. I had asked him about, "can we fund it in the name of an LLC?" [00:18:09] And he said, "no you can't do that. It doesn't really work that way." And it seemed like he was just trying to talk us out of it. I even talked with that he typically uses and that we used on our, Home that we live in. And he said, "Oh no, yeah, we don't do properties in the LLC. It'll be in your name. And then after closing, we could do a quick claim and then like change the deed and put the deed in the LLC name." And I said, "okay, what about the mortgage?" And he said, "no. The mortgage stays in your name." And I said, "I'm out." Like that is where I'm out. You're piercing the veil. [00:18:44] All of my personal assets would now be exposed and on the line. And that completely defeats the purpose of having an LLC. And he was like, yeah, we just don't do that. I really don't think that's going to be a problem. So I said, "okay, do you know anybody now he's been in this business for like 20 or 30 years?" [00:19:02] "Do you know anybody that can do that?" And he said, "Oh, not really." So that was time to start looking for somebody else because I know that it can be done. I've done it in Pennsylvania. So there's no way that Texas can't do this. Texas is far ahead of Pennsylvania in a lot of different ways.  [00:19:19] Jason: So we found another agent. [00:19:20] Sarah: So we found another agent who then referred us to Matt and he said, "Hey, I know a guy. He's really great. And I'm pretty sure he can do what you need." So I said, "great. What's his information?" I had a conversation with Matt and he's like, "Oh, well, yeah, we can do that." And I said, "so you can put the loan in the LLC. Not my name, the LLC. He said yeah, we can do that." Like it was easy. So it can be done. Sometimes you just have to look around a little bit. So that was how our deal was structured. So we went non QM and we ended up doing, since it is a short term rental, we went DSCR so that the rents would cover essentially your PITI. [00:20:00] And this is how we made our deal work. So we closed PITI. [00:20:06] Jason: PITI for the listeners is...  [00:20:07] Sarah: principal interest taxes insurance. [00:20:11] Matthew: Yeah, so, I know that was how our conversation started was, " can we do this in the LLC?" And we walked through that and the pros and cons a little bit, I think, and that's one thing that conventional QM loans don't really not really, they don't allow that. You cannot fund in an LLC. [00:20:25] Now, what happens is a lot of people like you were advised, "hey, fund it in your name, slip it to the LLC later." That can cause some problems because Fannie Mae does have due on sale clauses in their loan documents. So, technically, if there's an ownership change, that note can be called due. Typically, you can just flip it back into your name and stop that process, but it becomes a cat and mouse game back and forth if you have a servicer that's trying to, exercise that for some reason, it doesn't happen very often. It's not a very high risk, but it's definitely something you need to be aware of. On the non QM side, the lenders want these, or most of them prefer them to be funded into LLCs because non QM as a whole is considered business purpose lending. [00:21:11] It falls outside of the consumer protection, finance protection Bureau oversight. So, it's considered or classified more of like a commercial loan. And so most of them require, or want you to fund into an LLC. There are some that will do them in their personal names. It's interesting. They follow more of a conventional loan program, which I'm not really sure I understand, because they issue a closing disclosure and they look at loan estimates, even though it's considered a non loan. So they just handle a little bit differently. Those companies will allow you to do it in your name and some of them are doing a lot of those companies are also doing primary residences under a non QM basis. So bank statement products for somebody who may be self employed also trying to buy a primary residence. That's where I see it more. Most of the the LLC stuff is for investors and those lenders are going to. Really prefer or require it to be in an LLC. [00:22:07] Jason: Got it. Okay, cool. So what should investors know in order to make the decision as to which way they should go? Like, how do you make the deciding factor? Like, what are some of the things that kind of weigh into this?  [00:22:20] Matthew: Yeah, I think really it's a conversation initially of can they qualify for a conventional loan? Do they understand what non QM loans have to offer? A lot of investors aren't familiar with the details of non QM loans, how they work, how they can help them. So it's really an education conversation of, what options we may have available. Right? I would always start with the conventional loans typically and, see if we can qualify. If you can go that route and you're putting 25 percent down you're going to get a little bit better interest rates. And then you don't have some of the other key factors that come with non QM loans. So most non QM loans do have some sort of prepayment penalty because they're selling these to a secondary hedge fund investor that wants a minimum return. So, in most cases, you're going to have a prepayment penalty in a conventional loan. Stay out of point. A QM loan legally cannot have a prepayment penalty. [00:23:14] So there's a big difference there. But as far as qualifying them, it's a really, like I said, an education and a conversation about what their profile looks like. Right? They self employed. Do they own multiple properties? Are they showing losses or profits on those properties? And then, really documenting that, 9 times out of 10, what I'm told on a verbal conversation doesn't match what I get on the documentation that way. [00:23:38] "Oh, my business makes this," but they're talking about gross revenue, not net income. They're talking about gross rent amounts, not the net income they're showing on their tax returns. So it needs to go the next level. But that initial conversation may determine quite quickly that, hey, we need to go non for what reason or, because they want to fund it in an LLC, because the property is really a short term rental, but it doesn't but they don't have any history of short term rental management. [00:24:07] And let's talk just a little bit about, how you look at the short term rental. I know that's what we were talking a little bit about before we talked about your loan, right? So there's 2 ways to look at that short term rental and it's either from well, the rental income short term or long term can either come from an appraiser. [00:24:23] Or from a software program that some lenders are now using. So a lot of lenders will lean on a typical, appraisal to an appraiser to come up with whatever that market rent may be. And like, like, you said, it's difficult to cash flow properties in Austin or in Texas. On long term rents simply because the property taxes have escalated and now with higher interest rates. [00:24:48] So a lot of times, the short term rental is really from a lending perspective an easier way to qualify the property for 1. But we do have the ability to look at it from two different perspectives and this is what we utilized on your loan. So I'll just talk about a little bit. So I have a couple lenders that will look at the short term rental from a software perspective. [00:25:05] Right? So in your case. When we had the discussion, it was really a matter of, yeah, "I really want to put 20 percent down. I don't want to put additional money down. That would be more important to me than a little bit higher interest rate. Right?" And so, when we look at different lenders that may be leaning on an appraisal. [00:25:21] I don't know what that number is for 2 weeks and me personally I feel like appraisers, especially in the short term rental market. Are a little bit lazy and sometimes they just don't have the data. So what happens is I submitted to the lender based on an 80 percent loan to value. And then all of a sudden, my short term rental income comes back low or lower than what we may have expected. [00:25:42] And now that's requiring you to put an additional 5 percent down to meet their guidelines of a debt service coverage ratio less than one or go no ratio, right? We still have an option, but the option is going to require you to put a little bit more money down. And so. Again, we have two ways to look at it either an appraisals given us that number or with some investors. [00:26:00] And this is why I like working with some of those in that case. Like I said, your most important factor is 20 percent down. so I took it to a lender that gave me that short term rental number within 48 hours. They ran it through their system. They gave it to me immediately and said, "this is where we should be." As soon as we submitted the loan to underwriting within 2 days, we had an approval and this was confirmed short term rental amount. We didn't have to wait on the appraiser and it didn't matter what the appraiser's opinion was. They already confirmed what we were going to use, which confirmed that I could get your loan approved with just 20 percent down. So, that's a preferred method in a lot of ways, especially if we're trying to keep that 20 percent down number. [00:26:38] If we have somebody that's putting 25-30 percent down, then it's. A little bit less relevant and we can, decide what option might be best for them at that point.  [00:26:46] Jason: Got it. So why should property managers who are constantly wanting to do more deals, help more investors, why should they have somebody like Matt in their back pocket? [00:26:57] Sarah: Oh, that's such a good question. Well, I want to think of it kind of twofold. One, I feel like if you are a property manager, you should also be an investor in real estate. Real estate agents just by having access to the MLS. No, that's not where all deals come from. I know that, but just by having access to the MLS and the connections that you have as a real estate agent and property manager, there's no chance that you don't come across amazing deals all the time. [00:27:23] There's no chance. So capitalize on that.  [00:27:26] You should also be an investor yourself. It's great to manage properties and let's do that and build wealth ourselves. Yeah. So that's number one. But number two is if you're like, "well, I like, I don't know, I'm unsure, or maybe I have one property or two properties and I don't know if I'm ready to continue to build a portfolio." [00:27:46] Or you're like, "Hey, I have X many properties and I'm happy right here. I don't want any more." I don't know why, but maybe you are. So if that's the case and you have investor clients that very likely would love to get into more deals themselves. And it would be great for you because now if you have an investor and they manage five doors, but that same investor can now manage 10, 20, 38. [00:28:11] That's fantastic because now your business is growing. So if you have a way that you can help your investor clients get what they want, which is more deals, it's a win because yes, the savvy investors, they're always looking for more deals. Jason's hooked now. He said to me, we closed and he was like, "how do we do another one? like, how do we do another one?" He's like, "how fast can we do another one? Like Sarah, is it possible if we do like one property a year," right? And he did. Yeah, he did. There's a lot of investors like that because once you get it. Once you really get to see all of the benefits and just how freaking beautiful it is to be a real estate investor and make money and get all of the tax benefits that you don't get in almost any other sector. [00:28:54] It's amazing. So why would you not want more of that? So if you're a property manager, it would make so much sense for you to just be able to educate your investor clients. "Hey, have you ever thought of picking up more properties?" The answer probably is going to be "yes," especially if you're doing a great job for them as a property manager. [00:29:14] Because that's a tricky part is, "well, I could buy a bunch of properties, but who's going to manage them?" If you have a great manager, it makes sense to get as many properties as you possibly can, knowing that they are in good hands and they are being taken care of because all you're doing is printing money. [00:29:30] So if you want to grow your portfolio by adding additional deals to the clients that you already have. It's like so simple, right? Why would we not do that? So having options. that not everybody knows about. It's fantastic.  [00:29:47] Jason: So in short, this just gives them a lot more options to work with because investors want to invest, and they may think, "Oh, well, I've only got this much down or I can only do a conventional, I can only do it this way. I need to meet certain criteria" or "I've just declared all these losses."  [00:30:04] Sarah: "Like I have too much debt." Maybe their like debt to income is a little maxed out because we're, keeping up with the Joneses. This is so normal, right? So that and Matt's laughing. He sees it all the time. [00:30:15] I bet he's like, "Oh, we went a little too high on that one." [00:30:18] there's good debt and bad debt though as well, right?  [00:30:21] Correct. However, if you own five properties or six properties or seven properties, every additional property that you have that is leveraged, meaning that you have a mortgage on it, that's counting against you and your debt to income ratio. [00:30:35] Jason: Right. So it gets harder and harder using conventional to get into more property.  [00:30:40] Sarah: Unless you're the Fed and you can just print money.  [00:30:42] Jason: Well, I don't know if they're buying  [00:30:44] Matthew: a lot of money.  [00:30:44] But you bring up a good point and just to clarify when we do a debt service coverage ratio program, I'm not looking at any of your debt. [00:30:52] I'm not looking at a debt ratio calculation at all. And if you own multiple properties, I'm not even looking at any of those other properties for any sort of rent, income, verification, mortgage, anything. This one is a business, right? Correct. It's it. Well, it's just debt service coverage on that subject property, right? [00:31:10] Does the rent cover the note? And do we have enough money for down payment and reserves on that property alone? We don't look at reserves for those additional properties like you would a conventional. So you got five properties. I don't care about reserves on those. I'm only looking at the subject property. [00:31:24] So, yes, debt to income is a big factor and I think, if we're talking to property management companies, it's really just an education or a knowledge of what potentially could be out there. Right? Like you said, they have opportunities to buy all the time. I would think that the savvy property manager is going to scoop those up if they can, but are they aware of these programs? [00:31:44] Or do they think that? "Oh, my debt to income is too high or I have losses on my tax returns that I'm going to have trouble qualifying." And then you also have your network of investors that you manage those properties for that potentially are looking for additional doors, but they're not aware of these programs in some cases. [00:32:00] So, yeah, it's just a matter of, I think, education and just getting the information out there. So that some of these people know what options are available.  [00:32:09] Jason: Well, it sounds like it shifts the conversation from, "can we?" Yeah. Maybe it's a no, in their thought, in their mind to "how can we?" Like, there's other creative ways that things could be done instead of saying, "Oh, it's gotta be this one way we've always done it. That's the only way." So, what about for long term rentals? Which like some of the investors listening and a lot of our clients listening may not do a short term.  [00:32:32] Sarah: You can still do a non QM on a long term, especially in Austin. Now, other markets, you might find a cashflow. Like I have a cashflow property in Pennsylvania. [00:32:40] It's a rare gem guys, but in Austin, it's hard to get something to cashflow, especially right now.  [00:32:47] Matthew: Okay, so there's two ways to look at it again. There's, or I guess, multiple ways to look at it. Not just two, but bank statements if I'm looking at it. So, if they're self employed, and they have a business that we can lean on the bank statements, right? [00:32:59] That's my income qualifier and no longer care about that negative potential cash flow on the property in the rent. Right? So that's one way. If I'm doing debt service coverage and I'm looking at long term rental, I have a client that wants to long term rented. They're not going to be comfortable stating short term rental on the application. [00:33:17] They really have no desire to do that. Then I have to look at the short term rent. Now, what that's typically going to end up, at least in Austin, what's typically going to end up happening is that property is going to have a problem cash flowing at 20 percent down or 80 percent equity. Right? So what happens is it now pushes us to. [00:33:34] A bigger down payment, a larger down payment, 25 percent 30%. And then we have the options with those lower loan values to do either no ratio or lower debt coverage ratio loan programs. Right? So. If it falls below 100%, meaning 100 percent rent coverage with PITI coverage which principal interest taxes, insurance and HOA fees all come into that play. But let's just say it's a little bit short. I've got a PITI of 2000 dollars of my rent's 1800. well, the lender is going to do one or two things. Are you going to say, "well, we need more down to get that to 100%." Or "we're going to reclassify it as a higher risk and we'll do, some of them will go down to 75 percent debt coverage, but it's a little bit higher rate." [00:34:18] Or "we have to go to a little bit larger down payment and go no ratio, right?" No ratio means we just eliminate that altogether. And it's typically 30 percent down. So, we have options to look at but it is definitely a little bit harder if we're looking at long term rents simply because it's harder to cash flows at 20%, unless again, unless we have larger down payments or larger equity positions, for refinances to soak. [00:34:42] A lot of these let's talk about that too, you have some of your property management clients that may want to purchase more properties where they could extract equity out of these homes to use to purchase more property. So there's a lot of the refinance going on with those properties to under a non QM basis, because they again, they can't qualify for a full doc for whatever reasons. [00:35:03] Right? But there are options to pull cash out under a non QM basis and utilize those funds to reinvest.  [00:35:09] Jason: Got it. So say they've got five, 10 properties, it's getting really difficult for them to qualify for a QM loan. They could maybe pull some equity out of their existing properties, do like a cash out refi, and then use that money to fund a bigger down payment to do a non QM scenario. [00:35:28] Matthew: Absolutely. Absolutely. The challenge right now in the market with refinances in general is a lot of these people have really good rates on those properties. And so they don't necessarily want to refinance and lose that low rate understandably. Right? So. In other states, you have a the ability to do HELOCs or he loans, which are second liens, Texas, it's a little bit limited. [00:35:47] There's not as many products available, especially on the investment side. There are ways to extract some of that equity and reposition it to be reinvested in other investment opportunities. And I will say that we do have the ability to do the same type of loans on small commercial properties. [00:36:04] Like, up to I've got one lender that kind of specializes in that small commercial that goes up to 24 units. So, between 5 and 24 unit apartment buildings, we're also looking at a non QM type debt service coverage loan, which is what commercial loans look at in general anyway. Commercial loans are based on cash flow, right? [00:36:23] It's all debt service coverage based on that. But in that small apartment complex arena, you've got a lot of these kind of more residential lenders that are focusing and specializing in it. Because it's a piece of the market that's left out, right? Your commercial lenders don't want to touch something that's a few 100, 000 dollars. They have minimums of 5Million dollars, 3Million dollars. And so you have these smaller properties that are great investments in some cases that also have challenges getting loans, not because of the property, but because of the size of the loan.  [00:36:55] Jason: It's just not big enough for him. [00:36:56] So Matt what areas do you cover personally? And then how do people find somebody like you, how did they find somebody like you? Like, this was a challenge we had to ask around what do people look for to find somebody that can help them with some more creative options?  [00:37:11] Matthew: That's a good question. I wish more people would know how to find me. So maybe you can help me with that. But yeah, it's just, it's interesting. There's a lot of loan officers that just don't, I guess maybe they're scared of the non QM space. They don't understand it. They're scared of change, so to speak, and so they just go, "I've never done that. And I don't know anything about it and they don't want to learn about it." it's the fastest growing segment of the market right now. Fannie Mae is pushing a lot of the paper towards non QM from a risk perspective. They want to get away from it. They're making investment rates in terms unattractive, so to speak, so they're offloading it that way. But, I think it's really through the real estate agents is probably the best way to get in touch with somebody like me, if they're familiar with it. But what's interesting is even your agent from McLean that I work a lot with Brett. [00:38:00] He wasn't 100 percent versed in these products either. So. Fortunately, he got me, right?  [00:38:05] Sarah: Yeah. Thank you, Brett.  [00:38:07] Matthew: But, yeah, as far as if you have somebody that's questions, I'm always available to potentially educate people in regards to these programs. As far as where I do business, I'm legally licensed in Texas and Arizona, meaning national mortgage licensing, which is the, the CFPB license. [00:38:22] Now, with non QM loans about 35 states don't require you to have a license within that state. So I can do non QM debt service coverage all these type of loans that we talked about in about 34 different states. Just with my national license and because they consider a business purpose use, it's classified as a commercial loan in those states, and they don't have these overbearing laws like California does or Nevada. So there are some states that it's difficult unless you want to jump through a bunch of hoops to do it. And unless there's enough volume, there hasn't made sense for me to do it. [00:38:55] I just focus on the ones that I can, which is a big piece of the country and we can help folks in those 30 some states, 34 states, whatever it is.  [00:39:03] Jason: So there's maybe 15, 16 states that you can't cover.  [00:39:06] Matthew: It's the New York the Pacific Northwest and California, most of the middle of the country around Texas we can do. [00:39:14] I know you, you referred me to somebody in Utah the other day, they happen to be a state that requires licensing, but their licensing is pretty reasonable. So, if there was an opportunity or a reason, for some volume to come out of there, I could get licensed fairly quickly. [00:39:28] And some of these states, because I already hold a national license within them. I passed the test for that, which means you just have to take the state piece of that exam to then get licensed. Be able to do loans there, which is fairly simple. And as long as you're not in New York or California or somebody that has these crazy laws,  [00:39:44] Sarah: What's to invest there anyway, come on, like squatters and all this, like? [00:39:48] Matthew: I know, right? [00:39:49] I don't know how everybody does loans in New York. I hear it takes 90 days to close a loan.  [00:39:54] Jason: There's plenty of investors in those markets. I'm sure people listening. All right. Cool. Well, Matt, it's been great having you here on the DoorGrow show. Appreciate you being our guest. How can people find you or get in touch with you? [00:40:06] If they're wanting to reach out and find out if they're one of those 34 states.  [00:40:10] Matthew: Well, my number if you want my phone number is 512 415 6142. You can Google Nexa my name. I think if you Google my name and Nexa mortgage that come up quite a bit on the Google nexahomelending.Com is my personal website. [00:40:27] That's probably the two best ways to reach out to me just text or email and I'm more than happy to help you in any way that I can.  [00:40:34] Jason: Perfect. Well, it sounds like this is at least a key or just a tool or an idea that every property manager listening should probably have in their back pocket. [00:40:44] You should have some sort of connection to a more creative lender than you may have currently. And so, connect with Matt or maybe, I don't know, start Googling non QM lenders in your market. I don't know, but find somebody or ask around to some real estate agents, but see if you can get somebody that can help with getting some of these deals because investors, they have money, they have equity and, but they're not doing deals and they want to probably do more deals and they just need somebody creative enough to help them find some solutions or interesting ways to make it happen. [00:41:13] So, all right. Well, again, Matt, thanks for being on the show. Appreciate you.  [00:41:17] Matthew: My pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.  [00:41:19] Jason: All right. Well, everybody, if you are interested in growing your business, your property management business, reach out to us, you can check us out at doorgrow.Com. And until next time, everybody to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.  [00:41:30] Matthew: Great. Thank you. Talk to you guys soon. Bye. [00:41:32] Jason: you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:41:59] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

If you have been struggling to grow your property management business, you might have been prioritizing the wrong things… In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss how having the right priorities and getting support helps with business growth. You'll Learn [01:30] Are you prioritizing the right things? [08:30] Why you CAN'T do everything yourself [20:20] How prioritizing safety might hinder growth [27:30] Why you should be willing to take risks [30:50] Prioritize results and get those results Tweetables “You may have all the right priorities. They're just in the wrong order.” “I think a lot of times we hold onto things simply because ‘we want it done right' means ‘done according to my set of values.'” “Pain's an inevitable scenario if you keep trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome.” “You can either have your excuses or you can have results, but you can't have both.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: Isn't that the definition of insanity? It's doing the same thing over and over and over and then expecting a different result. [00:00:06] Jason: I think that's what creates insanity. Like, pain's an inevitable scenario if you keep trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome.  [00:00:14] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:56] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the founder and CEO and the COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:25] I did the intro right this time I think. I didn't screw it up. We could just have it prerecorded, people. You never know what you're going to get. Okay. So I was thinking about what we could talk about this morning and I've been doing some reflection and some study and the topic that just keeps coming up in my mind is prioritization and priorities. [00:01:44] In fact, I'll probably talk a little bit about that and do an exercise with some of the cool people that are coming to DoorGrowLive. Cause I really think if you're not experiencing growth and you're not having the success that you want, you're not getting the results that you want in business and life, then it's pretty simple. It's just that your priorities are out of alignment with you getting the results that you want. And you may have all the right priorities. They're just in the wrong order. And so you're prioritizing something over the thing that if you prioritize would give you the results that you actually want in your life. [00:02:20] And so I was thinking about this question and I threw it out to Sarah while she's getting ready this morning. And I said, "what are people prioritizing over growth?" Because the people that come into our program, the work with us, they get great results. They are different. They're prioritizing growth over certain other things. [00:02:39] And so people that don't work with us, why do they not spend money on coaching? Why don't they invest in coaching? And so why don't we go to Sarah and find out, what do you think? Why are people not spending money on coaching? Like where entrepreneurs at in their journey that mentally that's preventing them from spending money on a coach, moving the business forward or working towards growth? [00:03:05] Sarah: Well, I think there's a few reasons that this could be the case. And one might be that people don't even know what a coach would do, right? Like, "how would a coach help me?" And some people might not even be aware that that's an option.  [00:03:22] Jason: Got it.  [00:03:22] Sarah: I wasn't for a very, very long time. Even when I was running my business, I didn't know, "Hey, there's people that will help you." [00:03:30] Jason: Okay. That's fair enough. So what cracked your mind open to the idea or possibility of coaching?  [00:03:38] Sarah: Well, honestly, it was you. You're really big on coaching. I had never had a coach in my life. Ever. And when you and I had moved in together, you are so big on coaching and you do a variety of different types and styles of working with coaches. [00:04:00] And some of it is mastermind style and some of it is one on one and some of it is event type. And I realized, "wow, this is really great." Like, I just did not make that connection and realization that there are people who genuinely want to help other people succeed in life and in business.  [00:04:21] Jason: So I want to clarify what you're saying. [00:04:26] Clarify something. Some people listening will hear, "Oh, Jason's into coaching. Yeah, we know he coaches people. That's what he does. It's what he's trying to sell." And what you're saying is you saw me getting coached.  [00:04:38] Sarah: Oh yes, working with coaches.  [00:04:39] Jason: Working with coaches, joining masterminds. Like I'm the student.  [00:04:43] Sarah: I knew what you did when obviously when I met you.  [00:04:45] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:46] Sarah: But I also saw you embody that and you work with a lot of coaches yourself. And in seeing you and the business, our business, work with coaches, that was something I was like, "Oh, wow. Okay. That helps a lot." Because coaches, especially when you work with a coach that's been there, done that... because there's a lot of coaches that they don't really know. They're like, "well, this was a great theory." But when you work with a coach that has. done the thing and gotten the result and had that experience and now they can talk about it and they can share their experience and they can share their knowledge and they can say, "Hey, I tried this and it didn't work. So avoid this," and "Hey, this got me in some hot water, so definitely don't do that," And, "this was really successful and here's how I did it and here's why I did it this way. And I kept testing and refining." And then they can share that knowledge with you. And when I started experiencing that in DoorGrow, With the coaches that we worked with, that was something that I was like, "Oh, well, that would have been nice to know." [00:05:52] Jason: And Sarah learns super fast. Like I've always been super impressed by how quick you adopt new information or new ideas. Like most people I think it takes a while for people to absorb certain things, but some things you're just like, "yeah." And you're like, "let's do coaching." [00:06:05] And we've tried lots of different coaches out together. Like some not good.  [00:06:09] Sarah: Some are not good.  [00:06:10] Jason: Right. It's like a...  [00:06:12] Sarah: colossal waste of money.  [00:06:14] Jason: Some really good.  [00:06:15] Sarah: Some really good.  [00:06:16] Jason: Some we weren't ready for. We just like didn't have the capacity or the bandwidth to work with them.  [00:06:21] Sarah: Mm hmm.  [00:06:22] Jason: We just had so much going on. [00:06:23] Like we took on too much. Maybe we had too many coaches at a time, something like this. Right. Even right now, like I'm onboarding and I'm coaching and training two new sales team members, plus my son in learning setting and sales. But I went and got outside help. So I have a coach right now that's coaching me and them. [00:06:45] And then I'm spending each day coaching them, but each week we're meeting with a coach and he's an expert in sales and he's helping us go to another level and work on scripts and work on our communication, work on language. And that's been really helpful. I'm always leveling up my skills. [00:06:59] And I think it's important to never get comfortable. And I think for me, I just try to imagine like if I didn't have coaches or mentors and I'm every day trying to like coach people and sell coaching to me, that would feel like a gross lack of integrity. Feels like I'd be grossly out of alignment, and a lot of the coaches that we have, I found them through coaching programs that we were in with them. Right. And so I know that they believe in coaching and they're in integrity. And I know that they're in the areas, at least that I am seeking help in, they are ahead of me in that game. And and so I can trust them. [00:07:39] There's evidence they can help get results and they've given some value already. And so I'm like, "okay, I should, we should work with them." And I think that's one of the challenges. And so everybody out there, if you're like, " why am I not spending money on coaching or why don't I have a coach?" [00:07:52] I think there's a lot of reasons for that. But I think just as a side note, if you're going to get a coach, don't work with a coach that doesn't have a coach , right? If they went through one program one time, they're like, "I went through this coaching program and got a certificate one time." Then do they really believe in coaching? [00:08:10] No. They just believed in getting the appearance of being a good coach and they're not actually a coachable person. I believe in order to be able to coach others, you have to also be coachable and being able be able to learn. I learned a massive amount just by coaching, coaching clients and supporting them. [00:08:29] And so let's get into what people maybe are prioritizing instead of growth. If they're not growing. Because some people are listening to this and they're like, "well, I've been stuck at the same number of doors I've been at for like two, three years." So what priority might be off or what are they prioritizing that's different? [00:08:45] What might be off? What are some of the things they're prioritizing?  [00:08:48] Sarah: I think one of the big things is this need to control everything. And I understand because I am a control freak. I get it. And for a long, long time, I had always said, "if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself." [00:09:08] So, why would I ask somebody else to do this thing, and then I'm just going to have to go check and see if they did it the right way? And "oh, they made a mistake, so now I have to... it's just easier and faster for me to just go and do it myself!" Right? Instead of teaching somebody or training somebody or just asking them to do it, but then really secretly I'm going to go and check and see if they actually did it. [00:09:28] So delegation for me was very hard for a very long time. Because I am very detail oriented, and very OCD, and very organized, and I'm very particular in how things get done. So, I believe there's a right way, and a wrong way to do just about every task that there is.  [00:09:49] Jason: Yeah, that's very, very INTJ thinking of you. [00:09:53] But I'm not incorrect. Most of the time, you're not, right? And so, if you want it done right, you do it yourself. Is that true? Sometimes, right? Like there's a lot of situations where that's true. The challenge is: could it be possible that if somebody else did it, it could be done better than you? [00:10:12] Right. That could be true too. And so I think getting a coach is you start to recognize where you might have gaps and the ultimate evidence is our results. If we're not getting the results that we want, then maybe we're not the person that should be doing that thing. Because we're not getting the results and we're doing it. [00:10:29] So it's us, right? But yeah, I think that's a belief that a lot of people have in the beginning. "I want it done right." And I think a lot of times we hold onto things simply because "we want it done right" means "done according to my set of values." There's lots of different ways to do something and the outcome could be similar or could work or could be positive, but we have certain values that we want it done in a certain way to be the right way. [00:10:54] The right way. Yes. And INTJs very much feel there's a right way and a wrong way for everything. The challenge is a lot of times, if we're super rigid and believing we always have the right way, we can't see around corners. There's certain personality types, though, that can see a lot more opportunity and a lot more variety of options. [00:11:13] And they usually can crack those strong J's brains open, that are judging, to some new ideas and new possibilities. And eventually they'll adopt those, right? And so that's, I think where we have a nice balance in our relationship is you're usually right. A lot of things and very strategic brain and can figure stuff out and you're like, something's off here. [00:11:35] You're very intuitive. And and usually right when you're like, "something's not right here." And then also, I'm very good at seeing alternatives, other possibilities, and exposing you to some other options or some other ideas.  [00:11:48] Sarah: Yes. And you're also very good at human emotions.  [00:11:52] Jason: Oh. [00:11:52] Sarah: I'm not good at human emotion. [00:11:54] Jason: Right.  [00:11:55] Sarah: You're like, "well, you can't do that because it'll make people feel like this." And I'm like, "so?" [00:12:01] Jason: Yeah, yeah, this is a constant frustration. You're like, "why won't people just do what I told them to do when I just tell them one time in a very succinct way, exactly what I want?  [00:12:11] Sarah: Right? Like I have all the answers, just listen and then do what I tell you to do! That's it. Like, it's so easy. I feel like life would be so much easier if you just listen. [00:12:22] Jason: And so the one advantage, one of my maybe few advantages over you cognitively maybe is the idea that I can empathize a bit more with other people and I can figure out what would it take to get this installed into their brain? [00:12:38] What would make this digestible for them? What would make this palatable? What would make them able to adopt or absorb this idea or to remember this idea or for this to work? And you're like, "just tell them!" Because I can just tell you and you get it. And you'll get annoyed if I start to explain and use analogy. [00:12:53] Sarah: I got it, I got it.  [00:12:55] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:55] Sarah: Give me the thing that I need.  [00:12:56] Jason: Those things are very effective. I got it. Other people.  [00:12:58] Sarah: And now I'm going to go and do it. That's how I work.  [00:13:01] I think other people work like that too, but sometimes they don't and it's crazy to me! I don't... crazy!  [00:13:07] Jason: So I think one of the things that people prioritize over growth sometimes is that self struggle. Like there's people that value doing it themselves. [00:13:17] Like even as a little kid, my daughter, Madi, I would try to tie her shoelaces and she didn't even know how to do it! And she would say, "no, I do it! I do it!"  [00:13:25] Like she wouldn't let me do it.  [00:13:26] Sarah: Hey Madi.  [00:13:27] Jason: Madi edits our podcast, so she'll see this. She wanted to do it. And I'd be like, "okay." [00:13:32] And she's just sitting there struggling. But she was determined and eventually she figured it out and eventually she might be frustrated enough to allow me to help her. Right? And sometimes we have to allow people to struggle, but a lot of times we're self struggling and it's self imposed and we're not having success in our business or success in growth or adding doors or making more money or retaining clients or whatever it might be. And we're so stuck on this idea of self struggle, which is DIY, right? "I'm going to do it myself." and I've been this guy. I'll watch YouTube videos. I'll read books. I will figure it all out on my own. [00:14:06] " I'm smart enough. I can do this." And what I want to say to everybody listening, that that's you. You're right. You're totally right. You are smart enough to figure everything out eventually, it's just going to take you probably a decade longer than somebody that goes and gets coaching or gets helped. And I've been that I've done that. [00:14:24] Jason: I've spent like a decade doing stupid stuff. I'm in my forties. I've spent at least a decade doing some things and struggling with some things before I got help with it. And the amount of time somebody that already has succeeded at this or knows what works can collapse for you in the experimentation, in the struggles, in the financial risks, in the time wasting is pretty significant, like dramatically significant. [00:14:48] I've had mentors... I have one mentor. I paid him three grand a month and it was the biggest expense ever. Like I signed up for this coach and I immediately was like in a short period of time was making 30 grand more a month. That's a pretty decent return. Right? And I would have been stupid to not have done that, but it was a calculated risk. [00:15:07] At the time I was in a dysfunctional marriage and my wife at the time cried when I told her I was spending three grand a month, and we've spent a lot more than three grand a month on some of our coaches and mentors.  [00:15:19] Sarah: At the time three grand was a lot and it was scary.  [00:15:21] Jason: Oh, yeah.  [00:15:22] That was my first dive into high ticket coach. Yes. Working with the coach.  [00:15:26] Sarah: Yes, and I think the other thing to point out too about working with someone else is that It's not always about, "well, I must be bootstrapped. I must do it myself. I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to do it all. I don't need any help." [00:15:40] Sometimes it's not even that sometimes it's, you just think things are really good because we hear that sometimes. Not all the time, but sometimes like, "Oh, things are pretty good in the business," but you don't know what you don't know.  [00:15:51] Sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. And you think, "well, if things keep going the way that they are right now, that's okay. Like, maybe it's not my dream situation, but I'm also not really hating my day to day. And I'm not in this massive struggle." So I'm like, "things are okay. So do I actually need help? And do I need to reach out and work with someone?" And a lot of times, even if you think things are pretty good, and " maybe I don't need help." And you're right. You maybe don't need help. Perhaps you just need help to see what else is possible for you. [00:16:31] Jason: And they may not need help. They may not need it. If you're smart and you have big goals and you want to move forward quicker, then maybe you would want it, right? You would desire it instead of feel like this needy energy, like, "Oh, I need this." I think that's sometimes what limits us is we don't want to feel like we need something. [00:16:48] We don't want to admit we need something because it's a gross energy to be needy or to need something. It almost feels victimy to some people. I think when we have goals and we know what we want and we see that other people can help us, it becomes a little bit more natural for us to be able to do that. [00:17:03] Sarah: And I also think, this is another gripe I have with our lovely education system, is that in school, you are taught, "do it on your own." [00:17:13] "Don't look at other people's. Don't cheat. Don't ask your neighbor." If you're stuck, you pretty much ask the teacher. Refer back to your lesson and figure it out. When you're taking a test, you can't go "hey Joe, I don't know what number 13 is. You know what number 13 is?" You're not allowed to do that.  [00:17:32] Yeah, like getting help is wrong.  [00:17:33] It's wrong, right! So just have it memorized and regurgitate it. So take the information in, memorize it, and vomit it back up on a piece of paper, and then I will give you a passing grade. In the middle of a test, are you able to raise your hand and say, "Hey teacher, I had a question. I'm stuck on this. I don't really understand this. Can you please help me arrive to the answer?" No! No, you cannot! So in school, they teach us the self reliance. And I do believe that that is a very positive thing in one way. And in another way, it hinders our growth. Because in business, you should rely on other people so that you can get better results and go farther faster.  [00:18:17] Jason: So I think also what school teaches us, the way school is set up is there's this one guru expert at the front of the room that we have to listen to all the time. [00:18:27] And so we learn to be reliant on the leader for all the answers. And sometimes the leader doesn't have them, right? Sometimes they don't know. Sometimes they have blind spots. Everybody's been a student when they've called their teacher out on something that was off or wrong, right? Or seen that happen, and they lose that credibility. And teachers just usually don't tolerate that very well. They don't like being seen as having flawed thinking. Having a wrong idea or being wrong. And so there's this sort of authoritarianism that's like involved in schools. It's like, trust the authority, trust the leader, be this blind, dumb beast and let them lead you around. And that's like the Bible and book of revelations talks about the mark of the beast and the hand and the forehead. And maybe it's just your thoughts and your labor just being controlled by outside unearned authority. And people should earn. their authority, right? I work with coaches because they've earned authority, not because they just told me like somebody like put a gun to my head or forced me or I was in a school system and they said I had to do it this way. [00:19:30] So I think the irony of self struggle or DIY is that A lot of you are frustrated and thinking "I've got to do everything myself," but then you are probably because of that energy that you are being and creating in the universe and just how you show up with other people, you probably are really triggered and really frustrated with all the people that you encounter that think they could do a better job themselves. [00:20:00] Because you have the same energy or problem as them, and so they trigger you. So if you're running, you're butting your head all the time with these DIY people in the industry, people that are trying to self manage their properties or people that are trying to micromanage really self manage through you to get you to do the work, it may be because you're carrying this belief of self struggle or doing it yourself. [00:20:22] So just something to chew on. So another challenge that I think why people don't spend money on coaching or what they're prioritizing maybe over growth is there might be prioritizing safety or ease or comfort. And so what do you have to say about that?  [00:20:38] Sarah: So you have to get uncomfortable if you want results. [00:20:42] If you want results that are different than what you're currently getting, you can't take the same actions you're taking now and expect to get different results. I think, isn't that the definition of insanity? It's doing the same thing over and over and over and then expecting a different result. [00:20:57] Jason: I think that's what creates insanity. It stresses people out and makes you start to go crazy a little bit. That's a pretty painful. Pain's an inevitable scenario if you keep trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Now, everybody, as we age, we tend to move towards more and more comfort. [00:21:14] I saw a video the other day. I think it was Gary Brecka, this health guy. He said that after the age of 30, most people will never do another sprint again in their life.  [00:21:24] Sarah: Well, I don't want to sprint. If I'm sprinting, y'all better follow me because...  [00:21:27] Jason: right. That's what people are saying. Like, they're like, "yeah, I don't want to. That's uncomfortable. I don't want to be cold. I don't want to be too hot." Comfort is he like described as is what leads us towards death ultimately. We want to be comfortable. We don't go work out at the gym. We don't build muscle, which affects our cognitive functioning later in life. It makes our bones more brittle. We then have a broken bone and like like we're hospitalized till we die right in our later years if we don't do the right things And so we're always seeking comfort and ease, and when we're always seeking comfort and ease, we shift the weight towards others. We Become, what I would kind of phrase as a victim or a blamer. We're a victim. We blame other people. We're complaining about our circumstances constantly, right? [00:22:17] And instead of doing work or taking action or doing the things that are uncomfortable. And I think there's this stoic phrase that from, I don't know, one of the cool guys that is involved in stoicism or whatever, but the idea is "hard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life." [00:22:34] And a lot of people, I think could go, "that's true." I've seen some people make some easy choices, choices towards comfort, choices towards ease and their life's pretty difficult because they've avoided doing the hard, uncomfortable things, having the hard, uncomfortable conversations with people they should have, doing work, working hard to get the outcomes and a life of greater ease and comfort, right? [00:22:55] And so I think if you prioritize ease and comfort over growth, what's going to happen?  [00:23:00] Sarah: Not much.  [00:23:01] Jason: Well, you're not going to grow, right? Because growth isn't necessarily about ease and comfort, right? And so, even in nature, if we take a fruit tree or a bush that produces some sort of, fruit, whatever, if we cut that, tree and trim it, it will then yield a bigger result. [00:23:19] And sometimes if it's overgrown, it can't even produce fruit very effectively because it's too busy feeding everything else, all the branches leaves. So trimming it allows it to produce more fruit. And we're similar in that we need some friction and some intentional discomfort in our life and action in order to produce or bear fruit, in order to get the things that we want in life. [00:23:42] Having uncomfortable conversations creates greater peace in our relationships. Being willing to take action in our business allows us to have more freedom, more revenue financially, and to be able to take care of our team and ourselves better. And so we can't be a victim and a blamer and complain about the market and complain about COVID and whatever your stupid excuses are, whoever's listening. [00:24:04] If you've got all your excuses why you're not growing, you can either have your excuses or you can have results, but you can't have both. So which one would you rather choose? Right? And there's a lot of people that would rather choose their excuses because it allows them to not do anything. It allows them, "well, the market's tough, so I just might as well not do anything." [00:24:23] Like right now, real estate agents, some are like, "oh, real estate market's tough. Can't get deals." Right? And then there's people that are still closing a bunch of deals and making plenty of money. And so our beliefs and our mindset and how we prioritize things shifts things. And so are you prioritizing ease and comfort? [00:24:40] Sometimes it's not even about our own ease and comfort. Well, maybe it is. Sometimes people won't join a coaching program because their spouse doesn't want to spend the money or their business partner doesn't want the business to grow. We see that like they're an operator personality type. [00:24:54] They're not really focused on growth and they're like, "no, we have good, stable, residual income. Like why rock the boat? And I'm getting 50 percent of the revenue," or whatever I've seen. And they're like, "why change anything? Don't disrupt my comfort here." And the other person's like, "let's have more doors. Let's go crazy. I'm a visionary." [00:25:12] And the operator personality type's like, "yeah, but that would make my life worse. I don't need more money. I'm comfortable. Don't mess up my comfort." [00:25:21] And sometimes the business visionary, or if it's with your spouse, we're not having that uncomfortable conversation with them because it means rocking the boat. [00:25:31] It's uncomfortable. It means there might be a fight. It means you might get screamed at or get some angry emotion thrown at you. In some scenarios. And so I think it's really important to connect with deep down. Like, what do we really want? And what really should we be doing that we just know is right for us and being willing to step into that discomfort. I made some very uncomfortable choices in my day in order to get to where I'm at now. And sometimes it involved me having to look stupid in front of a group in a mastermind. Sometimes it involved me having to have uncomfortable conversations in relationships or even to end relationships. [00:26:10] That's super uncomfortable. In order to move forward and do what I felt I was called to do or what I felt deep down. What I think is also interesting is more people are a lot more comfortable with those that are willing to do uncomfortable things and speak uncomfortable words. [00:26:29] It makes everybody feel safer because they can trust that person. You can't trust people that are always focused on ease and comfort. I don't think they're as trustworthy of people because part of life in order to have integrity, in order to be honest, in order to work hard, in order to benefit the people that you have a fiduciary duty or responsibility to benefit like clients, you have to be willing to do the uncomfortable things. [00:26:53] Otherwise, you're shifting all the discomfort on to everybody else. "Everybody else around me has to be uncomfortable so I can have comfort." And that does not create great relationships, safety, or create a good client or business relationship in the longterm. So that's my soapbox about that. All right. [00:27:09] So, another reason people don't prioritize that they don't prioritize a growth is they might be looking at the short term. Maybe it's related to comfort. Maybe it's related to just, "I need to make sure I have cash now and they're giving up the longterm, maybe more cash later, maybe a bigger business later." Any thoughts about that?  [00:27:28] Sarah: This was your thing.  [00:27:29] Jason: I've run into this where I've talked to people and they're like, "well, I don't know. I don't have a lot of money right now," I think this is where you need to be willing to take a risk and bet on yourself. [00:27:37] Find a system that's proven. We've got plenty of case studies and results to show that our stuff works. It's all proven. It all works. What I find is the only real question people need to figure out is, are they willing to work? Do they trust themselves? Are they willing to bet on themselves? And a lot of people don't. [00:27:53] A lot of times we've struggled to even do the little things that we've told ourselves that we were going to do. And so we're out of integrity and we don't trust ourselves anymore. Like, "I'm going to work out at the gym tomorrow. I'm tired." Right. We've all done that. I've done that this week. Right. I did work out this morning though. But we've done that. We've all done that. And so it's the making these little movements of taking action towards our own integrity. Like I'm going to do this. And then I do it learning to trust ourselves again. And the one person you can control is you. And so when you have strong trust in yourself. [00:28:28] Very few things are supremely risky because you're betting on yourself, especially if you're getting support to become better. And so, it may be a cash investment now, but if you can see there's a system and you can see there's results, then maybe the risk is worth it. You should get an ROI if you do the right actions, if it's a proven system. So I think those are some of the things. So why don't we look at the reverse real quick, and then we'll wrap up.  [00:28:54] The reverse would be what are our clients like? What's different about our clients? What do they prioritize that made them decide to work with us? What are they prioritizing differently that said " why would I not spend money on coaching? I should totally do this."  [00:29:08] Sarah: Yeah. Well first I think they believe in their ability to do it.  [00:29:13] Jason: Hmm.  [00:29:14] Sarah: Because if you don't believe in yourself, there's nothing that you're going to be able to do. No coach can help you. You've got to figure that out first. So they believe in themselves and they are also committed. [00:29:27] And I think that is something that sometimes people are lacking. It's, they're just lacking a actual true commitment.  [00:29:37] Jason: So commitment, I feel like is, maybe it's a choice, but I feel like it's also an outcome of choices, right? So what are they choosing to prioritize? You think that maybe makes them more committed? [00:29:49] Sarah: You're so cryptic today. You're like, " what are they choosing?" Like...  [00:29:52] Jason: well, I don't know, this is an interesting question I think to chew on.  [00:29:55] Sarah: What makes people more committed?  [00:29:56] Jason: Why are some people committed and some people are not? We're talking about priorities today, so I'm thinking, what are the priorities that they have that leads to being strongly committed? [00:30:05] Sarah: It's either you're in it or you're out. It's like a pool. You're either in the pool or you're out of the pool. Yeah. That's it. You, like, you're either wet or you're dry. That's it. You can't like, "well, I've got a toe in the pool." Like it doesn't work. It doesn't work in business. [00:30:19] And if you're finding that, "well, like I have my foot in the pool a little bit, I'm going to pull it out if I have to pull it out," that business will forever be hard. You have to either go all the way in or go all the way out. Because if you're in the middle, it is difficult and it will remain difficult. [00:30:37] Jason: Yeah. It's really painful to be in between.  [00:30:40] Sarah: So either jump in the pool or jump out of the pool. Neither one is wrong.  [00:30:45] You might go, "I hate this pool. I don't like it." Great. Then find a different pool.  [00:30:50] Jason: So in chewing on this, I think in looking at myself when I'm fully committed to something, it's because I have prioritized the outcome. [00:31:00] The outcome is clear enough and important enough and motivating enough that I will do whatever it takes to get that outcome. That's when I'm fully committed to something. I'll do whatever it takes to get that outcome because I know what I want. That's one of the things is our clients know what they want. [00:31:17] Like they know that there's outcomes that they want. You mentioned, they believe in their ability to do it, to learn, to take action. And so they are a hundred percent committed. If you're committed to something and you don't know how to do it, you'll figure it out because you'll do whatever it takes. [00:31:34] You will struggle. You'll do go through trial and error. You'll fail. You'll make mistakes. And I think that's another thing is our clients believe in their own themselves enough to be willing to make mistakes. Whereas some people prioritize not looking bad or not making mistakes. And so they don't take the action. [00:31:51] They were like, "I need it all to be perfect and to know how to do everything before I do it because I don't want to be embarrassed or look stupid." And so I think some of our most successful clients are willing to just try stuff. They're just willing to do it. They don't have this need that they have to look so smart or whatever. [00:32:07] And sometimes those people struggle the most, right? Sometimes they are super smart, but they have to look good and look smart all the time. So I think in short, our clients prioritize growth, they prioritize learning, they prioritize taking risks, experimenting, and this is why they are able to move forward. [00:32:26] So hopefully this episode helps you reassess some of your own priorities. Like if you're not getting the results, make a list of what your priorities are and figure out like "what am I prioritizing currently that's leading to my current results?" Because if you can't see that, then you can't change it. [00:32:40] And as soon as you can see it and you shift your priorities, "well, I need to start prioritizing this." Maybe you need to start prioritizing action. Maybe you need to start prioritizing your health more. Maybe you need to start prioritizing learning more. Whatever it is, in order to get the outcomes that you want. [00:32:55] But if you're not getting the outcomes you want, your priorities are off. And hopefully this is an opportunity and an invitation for you to introspectively figure that out. And I hope that was beneficial.  [00:33:05] If you're struggling with any of this and you want some help getting clarity figuring out your priorities figuring out what you need to do in order to grow, you have a blind spot, you can't see it... like you need some external perspective, we all have problems we can't see. [00:33:20] And if you're not getting the results, you lack some knowledge. You lack some insight. And so reach out to us at DoorGrow. One of our growth consultants can help you figure this out, help you figure out where you might be stuck, what you need to get to the next level. [00:33:33] And you probably have some garbage or junk beliefs that are preventing you from being able to take things to the next level. And once those are out of the way, you're golden, right? So until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:33:46] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:34:12] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Bareeq Barqawi, DEI talent development analyst at Reed Smith, is joined by Sarah Hassaine, head of global diversity and inclusion at ResMed, to explore Sarah's remarkable journey and groundbreaking work in the field of diversity and inclusion advocacy. As April marks National Arab American Heritage Month, Sarah shares personal insights on how her cultural background has shaped her approach to fostering inclusion both personally and professionally. From championing health equity to addressing gender disparities and advocating for marginalized communities, Sarah offers practical strategies and invaluable advice for individuals and organizations seeking to drive positive change in their spheres of influence. Listen to this episode to gain valuable insights into the transformative power of inclusive leadership. ----more---- Transcript: Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.  Bareeq: Welcome to Inclusivity Included, the Reed Smith DEI podcast. I'm your host Bareeq Barqawi today. In honor of April being Arab American Heritage Month, we have the privilege of speaking with Sarah Hassaine, the head of global diversity and inclusion at ResMed and a trailblazer in the realm of diversity and inclusion advocacy. Before we delve into our discussion, I'd like to introduce our esteemed guests to our listeners. Sarah has is a dynamic leader with a decade long track record in driving global diversity and inclusion initiatives. Currently leading a global team at ResMed, she consults, advises, and upskills leaders worldwide, designs and delivers in-house D&I trainings and evaluates policies to drive inclusion. Notable achievements include expanding Resmed's ERGs or employee resource groups from 4 to 17, increasing self ID percentages by 4% and spearheading initiatives to improve representation and advocate for accessibility. Sarah brings over 20 years of management experience with a focus on HR initiatives recognized as San Diego businesswoman of the year in 2022. She holds an MBA from Wharton Business School and outside of work, she enjoys traveling, speaking three languages and finds relaxation in sunny beach days with a good book. Today, she joins us to share her insights and experiences. Sarah, welcome to the podcast.  Sarah: Thank you. It's so good to be here. Thanks for having me.  Bareeq: Of course. I'm going to dive right in for the sake of time. Sarah as an Arab American, how has your cultural background influenced your approach to diversity and inclusion advocacy, both personally and professionally?  Sarah: Yeah, And I'm really excited and happy that we're talking about the Arab American identity. Growing up, you're, you were othered as Arab Americans. So it has helped me across my career because the beautiful thing about being an inclusion and diversity leader is that you're navigating a lot of conversations around people feeling othered, and it's any category, right? Whether it's a parent, a caregiver, a veteran, a reservist, a lot of us experience that and as an Arab American, our identity is not accounted for, right? We're, you know, we're in the Census in the US, we're accounted for as white, but we're not treated as white. Oftentimes, our names are misspelled. Uh We get a lot of questions, small microaggressions, A lot of stereotypes get cast. And as someone who grew up, you know, an American grew up in this country, uh it is very hard to constantly feel like, oh, well, you know, you guys do this or you're, you're being othered all the time. So that has definitely helped with empathy and helping me understand the communities I work with and being able to relate and show that kind of validation to, to everyone else.  Bareeq: Wonderful. As an Arab American myself, I can, I can only relate to it because I, I always say when people ask why we got into this line of work, I say, well, being excluded, majority of my life has, has uh made me want to have others avoid this feeling um and be as inclusive as we possibly can be. So, thank you for that. So can you share actually a specific moment or experience that was pivotal in your transition into the realm of inclusion and diversity advocacy?  Sarah: Yeah. So I was supporting a recruiting team uh in a past life at a, a large company. And what we started seeing organically, right was that we got less female applicants, we got less women engaging with us at conference booths and we really didn't have any women on the team. And it started kind of, you know, being this issue that the hiring managers, like we, you know, we're seeing other women going to other companies, but they're not coming here. And why is that? And we had to look inward and understand that our marketing material, the language, we, we were interviewing, we would, you know, candidates, but they would be meeting with six males and then they meet the team. And so then it wasn't actually feeling like an attractive, safe space or there was no representation. And that's when it hit me that you can be supporting business culture, you can be supporting a business, you know, in many different facets. But if the business doesn't have a culture where employees feel like they can belong, that to me was the crux of what I wanted to do. It just hit me. I'm like, this is what I wanna do. It started with women, but then it became about everybody else and everything else. Um So that was kind of my, my point and that was about 10+ years ago. Uh when I got to start working on commercials and advertisements and conference booths and really thinking about what is inclusive engagement look like. How do you attract talent so that they know that when they come in there's, they're going to have a sense of belonging?  Bareeq: I love that. That's so insightful. I think that's such a great, I guess segue into my next question because, you know, we talk about gender disparity and addressing gender disparities is a crucial aspect of advocacy work. And you often talk about encountering challenges in attracting entertaining women in the workplace. What strategies do you find most effective in addressing such challenges?  Sarah: Yeah, there's a lot of data around how women that are mentored, usually they actually stay, they're more loyal to their companies and they actually have more growth trajectory. I will say mentorship and intentional leadership development programs are really important. The second thing I would also talk about is succession planning. Companies need to really think about, okay, here's our workforce in this department. What are we doing to make sure there's an equitable opportunity for promotion for assessment uh of performance of assigning stretch assignments. And so it needs to be a level playing field for everyone. So in order to really develop, make sure that your female population is having the same access as all other genders, you wanna make sure that you have strong succession planning retention methods like learning and development and mentorship.  Bareeq: Wonderful. Thank you so much for those examples. Actually, in dedication to promoting health equity within ResMed's diversity and inclusion initiatives, can you elaborate on your efforts in this area and how you ensure that health care solutions and services provided by ResMed are accessible and inclusive for diverse communities, including those that are often actually um marginalized and underserved?  Sarah: Yeah, there are a couple of answers I want to dive into for this one. So the first one is really thinking about the diversity in our mask and sleep trials in order for us to really think about a product that, you know, we sell worldwide in over 150 countries. So we wanna make sure that we're designing a mask um that has a rep representation already. So there's been a lot of intentionality around marketing to different communities that they participate in your sleep trials and your mask trials. So it has to start at the base of your product and with your research. We also have an entire department dedicated to medical research. And they have done a great job in terms of looking at the disparities between different populations, whether it's um African American women or Hispanic, like we start looking at a location. Uh So we, we, we address health equity in different ways. So there's the research component, there's the product component and then there's, you know, the fact that our business model is different in every country to your point about underrepresented or underserved communities, really making sure that, you know, our, that providers are telling patients, hey, get sleep tested or have you thought about looking into, you know, maybe going to a storefront? Right. So it depends where we're selling. Uh, it varies. In the United States, we go through HMEs. And so we want to make sure that that our doctors are getting our patients either at home sleep tests or getting them come to come into sleep clinics.  Bareeq: That's great, especially that partnership between the doctors and your organization, um and bringing them into that conversation. Um So I know your work extends beyond the corporate realm into advocacy for marginalized communities. Um Can you share about your involvement with refugee communities, orphans and economic inclusion in the San Diego community specifically?  Sarah: Yeah, you know, the refugee space is something very dear to my heart. When I graduated college, I worked in refugee camps in Lebanon um for different communities, African, Iraqi, Palestinian, Lebanese at the time. And then I went back when the war in Syria was happening in 2016. And I worked for a couple of weeks teaching English. So the first time I did socio-economic assessments to understand what the needs were. The gaps I should say, then I went back and taught English. So the way I look at refugee assistance or assimilation is around empowerment. San Diego has one of the largest refugee communities in the United States. Um We have every community here possible; Burmese, Somali, Kurdish, Syrian, Iraqi, uh Bosnian. And growing up here, I saw the waves of communities come in. And so it was a lot around upskilling, trying to get jobs, trying to get the school, the kids to get, you know, um learn English, get mentors. So I partnered with Teach and Learn Literacy, which was actually an organization through the Arab American Anti Discrimination Committee and uh volunteered twice a week teaching a Syrian family of eight English and helping them get jobs. So I did that for a few years uh now from an economic inclusion lens as I grow in my career, I partner with different nonprofits. Um So there's like the United Women of South of East Africa, they have a community center, there's the Refugee Assistance Council. So there's, there are all these organizations that do that look for mentorships, they want internships for students. So there's a lot of opportunity for corporations like ResMed or others across San Diego. So we try to build bridges around access to information, access to jobs, to mentors. And that to me is really important to make sure that our talent in San Diego stays here, grows here, feels like the sense of belonging here. So that's uh that's kind of what I do outside of work.  Bareeq: No, I love that because it's, it's also a representative of the community within which you're you are working in and, and finding ways to actually include the community in, in the work that you're doing. And I think that's actually incredibly commendable. So thank you for sharing that. So I'm actually gonna just gonna dive into the next question, which actually has to do with this as well. And it combines a couple of things we already discussed, which is in promoting economic inclusion and pay equity, what are some practical steps organizations can take to achieve gender parity in the workplace? I know this is always, I guess like a hot topic when it comes to any really across all sectors. But I would love to hear your uh your insight on it.  Sarah: Yeah, you have to start with data, you have to start with an analysis. So my recommendation to those listening is to understand if your organization has done a pay equity analysis, um understand your your data breakdown, right within organizations, looking at the different gender breakdowns. Then you can start understanding whether you have a story or not, right? Oh, some companies will do that pay equity analysis and then they'll come back and realize, well, we've had, you know, we have this percentage of cases. It could be bad, it could be not bad, not as bad as you thought, right? But it's very, very important to start with data. So my recommendation is to understand your gender breakdowns within each business unit. And I don't necessarily, I'm not the biggest fan of setting exact goals like percentages like X percent. I think it's important to go to leaders and say, well, here's where you are right now and here's what the benchmark is in this organization. So if you're looking at a finance or you're looking at electrical engineering, the gender availability in the pool of talent is different to begin with. So you can't claim 50/50 when you don't even have 50% a female representation in electrical engineering, for example. So understanding what the benchmarks are, is really going to help you. And then you can kind of say Well, you know what, let's really try to build more of a robust pipeline. Let's be more intentional or let's sponsor this conference. So that's where you really need to start solution out. It's not a one size fits all for an entire company. You have to break down a company within the departments. And then you also need to think about the overall pay equity analysis and understanding what, where potential remunerations are and if you have to do any adjustments.  Bareeq: I really love that because you're also talking about kind of funneling it down to, to it's almost like a case by case basis, like looking at different departments or different for, let's say, let's say, for example, the legal industry, we look at different practice groups and what is the representation there to begin with before we kind of dive into what the data says. I think that's a really great point. So actually I had a question and this is going to be a little bit of a pivot. So we talk about the importance of stripping away assumptions and biases in this line of work. How can individuals and organizations actively to work toward this goal? I think it's something that I would say the word actively because it's a really a never ending process. Um But what are some, I guess tips and advice you have for people.  Sarah: You know, I see a lot of D&I leaders focusing on unconscious bias trainings and that's it's great, but they're not really proven to help or work. It is important to offer it and it's important to uh have frameworks in place. What I find more valuable is showing leaders framework so that they understand psychologically why we have built in biases. Biases are there. It's it's not good to shame anyone for having biases. So what I always do, my recommendation is to know how to navigate biases. So you need to look at each team and kind of think about, ok, talent acquisition, what are potential biases here? With resumes, here's what we could do to navigate this or with interviewing, here's what we can do to navigate biases. So kind of going back to the the gender equity, it's your solutions need to go, they are tailored to the part of the department or company that has built in biases, right? If we're talking in promotion season, uh what I've done at companies before where I am now and now is let's make sure you have that point, that person who's in the meetings to make sure that there are no biases in assessing talent. Let's make sure that you don't have any biases when you're discussing promotions. So that's, that's where it's really important is when you're having promotion conversations, a hiring conversations, development conversations. I will say, I think it's very important to repeat conversations around unconscious bias. I do this training at least twice a year globally and people show up and actually leaders ask for it. They're just like, can you come in and talk about it because biases show up even in the way we communicate. I mean, Bareeq, we started off this conversation talking about being Arab American. I can't tell you how many times people tell me, I don't look Arab like I don't even understand what that means. Right. So the biases are there. And I think the biggest thing we can also teach our employees is knowing how to navigate those conversations, in a safe way, right, as a coachable moment. You know, so that's where we don't want more microaggressions. We want safe conversations where people are learning from one another.  Bareeq: I couldn't agree with you more, especially about the repetition because I just learned in a change management workshop that something only sticks after it's been repeated to you seven times which, you know, and talking about bias, I agree. I've, I've always been of the mindset that I can't shame anyone for bias because I think bias is inherently human. Um And you can't, you know, human beings will have bias. It's really about providing, providing tool kits in order to create bias disruption. Um And that's something that I think is a, is a powerful tool to provide people and, and reminding them, you know, over the course of time like, hey, this is available and let's talk about it and kind of bring it to the forefront, especially in very pivotal moments in the company. So like when you talk about performance assessment or they're going into recruiting season or things like that, I think it's um it's always like an essential thing to keep it in mind. So I completely agree. Um So I had something about challenges that we, that we end up facing and overcoming. It's an inevitable part of this advocacy work. Can you share a challenging moment in your journey and how you overcame it?  Sarah: Only one?  Bareeq: I was about to say there's probably many but one that comes, yeah, whatever comes to mind.  Sarah: I mean, the biggest thing that comes to mind is, is budget, right? Resources. The biggest challenge I had was um being on D&I teams and not being funded, not given adequate support and being de prioritized. And I know um if there are any D&I leaders listening to this, I'm sure there are some heads nodding or uh it is the hardest thing because I don't believe that we are set up for successfully. Uh And so the, the, you know, the days I have very long days and the days where I end even more exhausted is because I felt like someone didn't show up to meeting or move me out again or delayed a solution. Uh that is hard. And the other hard part is when you know, you need support or you need head count or you need that, that money or you want to sponsor, it gets really hard when you want to sponsor something and you don't have money to do it. And so com companies need to be very committed if your company is saying that they're committed to D&I, well, you have to, you have to show up. Right. And so that's where I'll say the biggest challenges.  Bareeq: Yeah, I found that even, not just where I am currently but in other organizations I've worked for, it's, it's definitely a constant problem if either it's monetarily or like you said, having that support. And I found that kind of pivoting the conversation almost lately, especially like making it a business case brings some people to the table in a different way because they're like, oh, you know, I never thought of it this way. So it's almost like changing perspectives on people's approach to D&I. You, you sometimes hope it was, you know, people come into it like already being there, but to get people there, you kind of have to find different approaches I feel. And finally, as we wrap up, um so what advice would you give beyond what we've given, because this has been a wonderful key conversation, what would you give advice to individuals or organizations looking to become more active in promoting inclusion diversity within their spheres of influence?  Sarah: Just to make sure it's uh for companies, right?  Bareeq: Advice for, for companies, for individuals, you know, people that are working to become more influential in the organization.  Sarah: So for internal advocates or internal stakeholders and D&I leaders, there is the opportunity you there's to really understand the power of influence and persistence and no one can really succeed in D&I without that strategic business lens. Like you need to understand your business and by understanding the business, then you can adapt a conversation around. What does inclusion mean at this business? What does it mean? Whether for my products, for my people, for our policies? Uh So that's my biggest one for internal and then for companies, I will say it's very important that if your values call out inclusion, diversity, belonging, acceptance, accessibility, then you have to embed that across all your work streams. You have to really think about. It's not just a people practice, it's an every leader, every person practice.  Bareeq: Thank you so much. I love that because it's almost like building in the expectation in anything that you kind of approach within the company. I love that. Thank you so much, Sarah for sharing your valuable insights and experience with us today. It's been an honor having you on the podcast and we really, I think have taken away some wonderful, wonderful key tips and advice that we will definitely be using hopefully.  Sarah: This is a joy. Thank you so much, Bareeq for the opportunity.  Bareeq: Thank you. And that's all for today's episode of Inclusivity Included. Join us next time as we continue our exploration of diversity, equity and inclusion. Thank you for listening.  Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.  Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  All rights reserved. Transcript is auto-generated.

If you are a property management entrepreneur, you have likely been your own salesperson or BDM at some point. Eventually, every property management business owner will need to hire a salesperson and develop different growth engines. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about their BDM Bootcamp event You'll Learn [01:52] What is a BDM? [03:00] Get your BDM Ready for BDM Bootcamp [08:42] You Need a Sales Pipeline! [14:26] Benefits of In-Person Events Tweetables “It's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine, and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline.” “Your pipeline will literally never ever work if you don't even have one.” “If you're not working the pipeline and you don't know the different stages of a pipeline, you're just guessing, and you're just hoping.” “You need to get to the real pain and related that you need to get to the real pleasure, like what they really want. Nobody really wants property management” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: It's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline or you're tolerating drop off at one of these stages.  [00:00:17] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing a business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:36] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, Jason and Sarah Hull. [00:01:15] Now let's get into the show. All right. So today we're going to be talking about BDMs.  [00:01:24] Sarah: Yeah.  [00:01:26] Jason: In honor of this event that we have coming up, which is. Going to be super cool. I don't know that there's been anything like this. That's been as cool as this that's existed in the property management space, maybe ever. [00:01:39] There's a lot of people that talk about BDMs, but there's very few that are actually getting BDMs to get great results. And we're going to be hosting a BDM bootcamp. And so Before we go any further, every time I start talking about BDMs, as if everybody knows what it is. I just talked to a guy with, I think, 800 doors the other day. [00:02:00] He's like, "what's a BDM?" I was like, man, okay, I need to make sure I explained this. BDMs are business development managers. Sometimes they're called BDs, business developers and they're salespeople for property management. That's what people will call them, right? Business development can happen in any industry. [00:02:18] But the reason we use the phrase BDM in property management is because property management is closely connected to real estate. And whenever you mentioned sales, people get it confused with real estate brokerage sales type of stuff. And that's why. Now everybody knows what a BDM is, and we're going to be talking a little bit about that today. [00:02:37] Sarah: Okay.  [00:02:38] Jason: So anyone listening to the show, you better know what a BDM is from now on. That's it.  [00:02:43] Sarah: There's a quiz at the end.  [00:02:44] Jason: What is a BDM? Did you get it right? If not, go back and start this episode over.  [00:02:49] Sarah: Try again.  [00:02:51] Jason: Okay. All right. What do we talk...? Do you want to like tell them about the event? [00:02:56] What do we want to talk about?  [00:02:58] Sarah: Yes. Tell them about the event. So we are launching a BDM bootcamp. So there's a lot of companies that promote getting BDMs. And there's a lot of companies that promote getting BDMs and then spending a bunch of money to run ads and get leads and pay for leads and then have the BDM work the leads. [00:03:21] And then if you just want the BDM to close more deals, it's simple. All you have to do is spend more money and buy more leads. Which is really expensive and wildly ineffective. So we have strategies that BDMs use...  [00:03:35] Jason: that actually work  [00:03:37] Sarah: ...that are free, or at least very inexpensive. [00:03:40] You might have to pay for lunch. That's okay. You get something out of it too. And we've decided that we're going to launch a BDM, aka salesperson, boot camp. It's going to be a one day training. And we've never done anything like this before. For those of you that are current clients, there's some trainings on DoorGrow Academy. [00:04:01] We run every wednesday, our growth accelerator calls, but it's hard to amass all of this information that Jason and I have learned about sales over the last, what, 20 something years and put it in a course. Or talk about it on a one hour call. It's darn near impossible, right? So what we wanted to do is we wanted to take some of this information and spend one day going over all of it. [00:04:31] Now, this is very likely going to end up being a series because we can probably talk about sales and strategies and tactics and how to improve your scripts and what to say and like NLP language and filler words and all this good stuff, we can go over this for probably days on end. So what we're doing is this is very likely going to end up being a series, but we're going to launch the first one in April, so for those of you that are watching live, you all have a chance to get in on that for those of you that are watching this recording is will probably be released after the event, but don't fret because  [00:05:11] Jason: you may have missed it.  [00:05:12] Sarah: You might have missed it. Oh, man.  [00:05:15] Jason: Maybe you should get in our Facebook group and pay attention to the live streams. [00:05:19] So you don't miss stuff.  [00:05:20] Sarah: Sometimes we do some cool things that you need to know about right now.  [00:05:23] Jason: The Facebook group, go to doorgrowclub.Com apply. We reject 70 percent of the applicants, which is why the group is good.  [00:05:31] Sarah: Okay.  [00:05:32] Jason: Okay.  [00:05:32] Sarah: Anyway. So that was our shameless plug. All right. No, right. Go ahead. [00:05:36] If you've missed it. Yeah, we don't have a word from ourselves yet. That's a great idea. Who wants to sponsor this podcast? We'll plug you on every episode. Talk to me, baby. So anyway, if you've missed it. Sad for you, but don't fret because there's going to be more of these. This won't be a once and done thing. [00:05:55] So for those of you that are listening now and or hear the information before the event, then this is going to be for you. So here's the information. It will be Thursday, April 11th. So this is also open to anyone on your team who handles sales, meaning it might be you, it might be somebody else. You may have multiple people on the team who handle sales. So if you would like Jason and myself to train your salespeople for a day. This is a really great opportunity for you because that's exactly what we're doing. [00:06:33] So do you want to tell them a little bit about what we're talking about? Or do you want me to do that?  [00:06:38] Jason: I'll go ahead. So we've seen a lot of problems with businesses growing. And so if you, have a BDM or if you are the BDM, you're the business owner, you're the one that closes deals and you are not adding at least a hundred orders a year, hopefully through organic methods instead of wasting a bunch of money on advertising to get cold crappy leads, we're going to give you the strategies, we're going to focus on some different growth engines talking about those. We're going to get into specific pipeline stages because what I often identify is that it's not the growth strategy that's the problem. It's that there's multiple stages in a pipeline for each growth engine and you are not identifying the leaks that exist in this pipeline, or you're tolerating drop off at one of these stages. And not making progress and so we're going to help you identify where the leaks are if you've started building some of these growth engines, you may have started doing things like trying to do realtor referrals and it's not working very well. [00:07:39] You're not getting easily 10 doors a month from that. You might maybe you've heard of our neighbor strategy and you're not getting referrals from that. Maybe you've heard of some other of our strategies, it's not working. And if you haven't heard of these, then you might want to show up, but we're going to talk about the different stages. [00:07:55] We're going to talk about what maybe is affecting things at different stages. This will be very tailored to those that are in attendance. We want to help you move your business forward significantly. And sometimes there's very simple tweaks that could be done at each of these stages that opens the floodgates. [00:08:10] So you have a lot more flow through the pipeline, which means more deals and more money.  [00:08:15] Sarah: Yeah. So back up because you skipped to topic number two, which is cool. We can do two and then one and then three and then four, but that's fine.  [00:08:21] Jason: They're not numbered.  [00:08:22] Sarah: They're not, but they are in order on the document. [00:08:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:08:25] Sarah: Yeah. [00:08:25] Jason: So Sarah's an operator and everything has to be done a certain way. There is a right way for operators.  [00:08:32] Sarah: There's a right way to do literally every task on the planet.  [00:08:34] Jason: I'm talking to the business owners and they care most about what is interesting or different, but...  [00:08:42] Sarah: yes, and I understand, but your pipeline will literally never ever work if you don't even have one. [00:08:50] Jason: That's true.  [00:08:51] Sarah: Or you don't know the stages of a pipeline because a lot of times, and I bet this happens to you too, but it happens to me when I ask people, okay, "what does your sales process look like?" [00:09:00] " Oh, I talked to somebody." "Okay, great. And then what?" "Oh, and then I send them some information." "Great. And then what?" [00:09:05] Jason: "I wait." [00:09:06] Sarah: "Oh, then I wait." "Oh, okay. Like, do you call them again or do you check in or do you like set up another call?"  [00:09:13] Jason: "Or I follow up in a way that I look needy and creepy?"  [00:09:16] Sarah: Sometimes the answer is yes. And then sometimes the answer is no, but even if they do follow up or have another call or check in again, somehow, then my next question again is "okay, and then what?" And then they go, "oh, and then I just wait." So essentially what happens is you have no pipeline. Okay. And you don't know that you don't have a pipeline, but you don't have a pipeline. [00:09:35] And that means if you're not working the pipeline and you don't know the different stages of a pipeline, we're just guessing, and we're just hoping. We're going, "I don't know. I keep talking to all these people, but nothing seems to be closing. And I don't understand why," because you don't have pipeline stages. [00:09:49] Jason: Okay.  [00:09:49] Sarah: So you got to need a pipeline.  [00:09:51] Jason: So we'll teach you how to build out the pipeline. We'll talk about the different stages that need to exist. And then it'll be a lot more clear and we'll talk with you about how to build that out in your CRM of choice. So you'll understand the principles. [00:10:04] You can go apply this to whatever CRM you use, whether it's DoorGrow CRM or lead simple or whatever else is out there. Okay, I'll go to number three now that we're back in order. Okay. All right. Number three, [00:10:19] Uncovering your client's pain points. So superficially people think they know the pain of their target audience. So they want their property manager. They don't want to have to deal with managing the rental property. That is not the real pain that gets you to close deals that you have to go a lot deeper than that. [00:10:36] And so we're going to talk about how to disarm people, how to not come across as super salesy, how to create authentic communication and an authentic relationship where they believe that you can help them and how to get them to open up about what the real pain is, the real stress of the real emotion that might be motivating them to have a conversation with you. [00:11:00] And one of the biggest problems we see in sales is that a lot of people don't take time to identify what the real pain is. The pain often has not really anything to do with the rental property. It's something going on in their personal life. And so you need to figure out how to connect to that. [00:11:16] And for some that's like, "Whoa," that's like, "I don't know how to do that. That'd be weird or awkward," but you need to get to the real pain and related that you need to get to the real pleasure, like what they really want. Nobody really wants property management, right? Just like if you're booking a trip to Hawaii. [00:11:34] Property management is the flight to Hawaii. It's not the paradise. It's not the outcome that they're hoping for. It is property management. So we want to sell the trip. We want to sell Hawaii, not the flight there, right? Which is property management. So we'll talk about also getting towards the, not just the pain, but the pleasure. [00:11:54] Those are the 2 ingredients you really need to know and uncover in order to close the deal. And so if you're not closing deals, it's probably because somebody else is better at that than you. You're one of your competitors, or they're just going to go with the cheapest company because you haven't really created a connection. [00:12:11] And so they think you're a commodity. You do everything everyone else does. And so that we'll get into that. All right. So good?  [00:12:18] Sarah: That was good.  [00:12:19] Jason: Number four, reviewing and improving your call scripts to book more appointments and close more deals. So we want to like, take a look at what are you saying? And you may think, "I don't have scripts. [00:12:30] I'm just awesome. I just wing it every time." I guarantee 90 percent of the time, you're saying similar things, dealing with objections in similar ways. And so you have a script. It just probably isn't a very clearly defined one, which means it's probably not a very good one because you haven't taken an objective look at it to optimize or improve it. [00:12:50] And so we're going to take a look at some scripts that are effective and figure out ways to improve your scripts. And sometimes it's not even about what you're saying. It's about how you say it. And so we're going to focus on some of the magic that comes with how you communicate with people. I've got clients that are not salespeople, like no real training in sales, terrible at sales. And they're crushing it because they know how to be authentic. They are communicating in a way that's disarming and they're just being helpful. And so we're going to talk about some of that stuff. How to close more deals. Some of you that are so good at sales, you're super salesy, you like cut your teeth as a baby in real estate and like you're a shark, like we're going to help you figure out how to undo a lot of that mess so that you can create more trust and sales and deals happen at the speed of trust. [00:13:44] And so we're going to help you close more business, which will make things a lot better. Okay.  [00:13:50] Sarah: That's what we've got. All right. That's our agenda. And if this sounds interesting to you, now, our hope is that once you come to this event, you'll obviously get a lot out of it and learn a lot about sales that we just typically can't cover on a one hour call. [00:14:07] It's just, it's too much. I can talk about 1 of those things for more than an hour. Right? Once you come to this event, you'll learn a lot and you'll be able to immediately implement these things so that very quickly, you will start seeing some changes and some positive results and momentum.  [00:14:24] Jason: So why do this in person? [00:14:26] So let me talk about that. One of the things we've noticed in DoorGrow's, I'm starting to call it the real bubble. And so there's this mentality, I think, unconsciously in our brain. So when we're doing stuff on zoom calls and zoom meetings, which we do a lot of cool stuff that way DoorGrow, but we've noticed that when we get people in person for the first time they meet Sarah and I and realize we're real human beings. [00:14:48] We're not just something on video and that we're real and they can like hug us. And like we touch right? Like then something shifts in their brain that everything else they're saying is real. When they start to meet clients that they've seen on some of the Zoom calls, sharing their wins and talking about crushing it and adding doors. [00:15:07] They're like, "Oh, these are real people." And then the brain shifts and they start to connect that, "Hey, if they're real, and this is real and they're getting real results and they're like me, I'm a human, like I can do this too." And all of this stuff is actually true, impossible. And so we've noticed a shift in clients once they come to DoorGrow live, which is coming up in May, or they come to one of our in person events. [00:15:32] And so we want to do this in person because there's something magical about in person that content and information is absorbed. A lot more easily. There's also that sort of kinesthetic aspect that we're there physically but the learning is a bit more experiential. We'll be able to maybe even role play, go over some scripts, talk, like, say things. [00:15:52] It's just a bit more real than just seeing something on video or watching a video replay or something like that. And so come pierce the real veil with DoorGrow and realize the real magic that exists.  [00:16:03] Sarah: All right. Yes. And at this point you guys might be wondering all right, so this sounds pretty good. [00:16:09] I think I might be interested. What do I do? Contact me. Don't contact anybody else on the team. They're not even going to know what you're talking about. Just contact me so you can get in touch with me. It's Sarah S-A-R-A-H. If you go to our website and you end up talking with somebody else on the team, they will point you in my direction and you can get registered that way. [00:16:29] Now, tickets for this will be 1k per person. You can have as many people on your team attend as you would like. So if you have 3 BDMs and you want to send all 3. If there's just one or two, maybe that you want to send or you want to come check it out yourself, go ahead. But you'll need to let me know now spots are going to be limited. I don't even have 20 spots. I actually need to go back and confirm how many I have left because I know we had some people interested. But the price for this will be 1k per person. And I know that the price will not stay. At that rate. [00:17:03] So we're launching it and we're doing something special with the price. So for now, take us our one case. So get in while the cost is low.  [00:17:12] Jason: There you go. All right. You will easily offset the cost of doing this. For most of you, that's like getting one more deal, right? So lifetime value for most of your clients, probably a lot higher, like maybe 10 times. [00:17:27] Maybe 20 times higher if you can keep them a while, right? So this is a no brainer. This is very easy and we can get your BDM adding a lot more doors. So just like some client results, we've got clients that are easily some BDM are adding 200- 300 doors a year organically without paying for any SEO or pay per click or content marketing or social media marketing or pay per lead services like APM and they're able to grow and scale their business quickly through organic methods. [00:17:56] Sarah: And we have some clients that turn business away every single month because they just cannot.  [00:18:02] Jason: Get pickier and pickier.  [00:18:03] Sarah: Yeah, they're backlogged. And then they ask us on the calls what do I do? Like, "I don't want to say no, but then I can't take on this many." And we're like, "now you have a waiting list and you can take on X money per month." [00:18:14] And if they can't come on this month or they missed that deadline, then roll them over to the next month. If they qualify.  [00:18:20] Jason: Okay. All right. So that is BDM bootcamp. So check out BDM bootcamp, reach out to sarah@doorgrow.Com. Sarah with an H.  [00:18:28] Sarah: Yeah, if you spell my name wrong, I'm not talking to you cause I won't get it. [00:18:32] Jason: Okay. That's your punishment.  [00:18:34] Wow. Okay.  [00:18:35] Sarah: So don't forget my H because everyone does.  [00:18:38] Jason: Just email me. I'm nicer.  [00:18:40] Sarah: He never checks his email. Don't email him. That's true.  [00:18:42] Jason: My assistant does. Don't do it. All right.  [00:18:44] Sarah: You'll never hear back the black hole.  [00:18:46] Jason: No, my assistant's good. She'll take care of it. I just won't see it. [00:18:51] She'll tell me about it if it's important. All right. For those of you that are wanting to join a community, be part of something awesome, reach out to us. And so you can learn more about DoorGrow Mastermind. You get access to some of the coolest stuff and to be part of the coolest community of the most growth minded property management business owners in the industry. [00:19:11] And we can help you get your business to the next level. So whether it's scaling operations, whether it's figuring out how to grow, whether it's cleaning up the front end of your business, getting your website and your pricing, right, all this kind of stuff. So we can help you. All right. Check us out at doorgrow. com until next time to our mutual growth, everybody. Bye for now. [00:19:33] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:19:59] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

If you've been listening to the #DoorGrowShow for a while, you're probably familiar with how DoorGrow helps property management business owners grow and scale their businesses, but you might not be ready to take the leap of faith just yet… In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull reveal a new way to get your feet wet and work with DoorGrow to create a personalized roadmap with a low-risk investment. Go to doorgrow.com/clarity for more details. You'll Learn [01:23] The creation of a new coaching strategy [07:43] 4 steps to creating a roadmap [14:57] The benefits of Planning and Discovery Tweetables “So if you want to grow or scale the business faster, understanding each of these strategies and stacking these is going to allow you to grow even faster” “The healthier your mindset, the faster you grow and the more money you make.” “You should be doing less of those things if those aren't the things that you actually like.” “I don't think you'll trust anybody else really to help you move your business forward.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: If you want to grow or scale the business faster, understanding each of these strategies and stacking these is going to allow you to grow even faster because you're not wasting time with time wasters or tight kickers or doing the wrong thing So the more of these you stack, the healthier your mindset, the faster you grow  [00:00:20] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:58] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:20] All right. So we came up with this idea this last weekend. And this might be helpful for some listening, we used to sell websites. That used to be the main thing. And we used to be called OpenPotion way back in the day. [00:01:31] And over time I realized I spent a lot of time figuring out how to help these web designers figure out what they needed for their website and to really make it effective as a marketing tool, I had to ask a lot of questions and over time it turned into multiple sessions, like to map everything out. [00:01:49] And I realized the more time I spent with them, the higher the price I could charge. Like I was able to get people to buy more because I was able to showcase more value, help them understand. They realized, 'Oh there's a lot more of the website could do for me.' So it really created this ultimate win win, better than if I just sat down and said, "what do you want?" and just did whatever I was told. And you can go out and find a cheap web designer and just say, "give me a website." And they'll just go, "okay, what do you want?" And they'll just do whatever you tell them to do, but you're not an expert at this, right? Otherwise you would be building websites, maybe. [00:02:18] So I, it got to the point where I was telling them, "here's what we need to do, and here's how to do this." And now I was doing these multiple sessions and then I had somebody that wasn't a really great person eat up my time. I spent like probably six hours, maybe eight hours with this guy, like mapping everything out, getting the site map, homepage layout mapped out, like everything we were going to do together. And we had this plan. And then he's, "thanks so much. I'm going to have my team members in India build it." And I was like, "Oh," I was pretty upset. So Sarah and I were driving back on the way from Dallas with our friend, Roya, who's hanging out in the car and she's coming to hang out with us for a day. [00:02:55] And I was talking with Roya and she was asking about sales and I was explaining how I used to sell websites and what increased the close rate dramatically and added more value. And it was almost, Like I almost never didn't get the deal once I started doing this planning discovery, it was like I always close the deals. [00:03:13] Like everybody would want to work with me after I did that. And Sarah then had the question...  [00:03:18] Sarah: And he's like, "and I would close a ton of deals and it was really great. And I already knew exactly what they wanted and we had this good relationship. And he's and then I would close like a ton of deals. I would have a bunch of projects." And I said "okay, why don't we sell like that anymore then?" [00:03:32] Jason: Yeah, it was kind of like "I don't know. Selling a mastermind is a little bit different than doing the website, but we would just get people into the mastermind, but this would increase the close rate." [00:03:42] And the idea is you know, If they're going to be spending a bunch of money with you, they want to get their feet wet with you. They want to get to know you a little bit. And I've actually coached clients on this strategy of doing planning and discovery sessions in order to increase the close rate and to get more deals in property management. But we haven't been doing that. We haven't done that for a long time. And so I was like, "I don't know. Maybe we should do that." And you're like, "yeah, I think it'd be a good idea." So we then mapped it out while we were driving in the car. Here's what we could do for each session. [00:04:13] Here's why this would be such a great value. And we mapped it out. And so yesterday I had two calls with potential clients and they were small companies. So they were like, "Oh I've got maybe 30, maybe 50 units." And they're like, "I don't have the funds yet to join your mastermind." [00:04:31] And I said, "we came up with this thing this weekend. Let me tell you about it." And they were like, "yes! I want to do that" I closed both of them on it right then. And so we wanted to share that with the audience. If you are considering working with DoorGrow. And you want to experience the magic of coaching, we'll tell you about the benefits of this, but we came up with this planning and discovery process that gives you a lot of wins and it's super low risk and it's only a thousand bucks and it's pretty cool. [00:04:57] So let's talk about this. It's really low risk because you're going to get a lot of value. You'll easily make more than a thousand dollars back in your business from the ideas that you get from this even if you choose not to move forward with us into the mastermind. So it's worth several thousands of dollars. You'll get to know us and we'll get to know you. So this shows us if you'd be a good client, like if you do the homework, if you do the things we give you to do, and it'll allow you to see what it's like to work with us and if you're getting value and it's going to be really deep because this is like one on one with either Sarah or myself. And so I was talking with the team this morning and they were like, "how do we know whether to give one of these to Sarah or to Jason?" [00:05:37] Sarah: You'll definitely be on these with either Jason or myself. This won't be one of our other coaches. This will be one of the two gurus.  [00:05:45] Jason: So a lot of you listening, you're, you might be a little more familiar with me cause you've seen me on TikTok and I've been around for a while and you might not be as familiar with Sarah unless you've been listening to the podcast. [00:05:55] And she's an amazing bad ass. So what I told the team, we talked about how to sell Sarah this morning, which was interesting. So we were just like, how do I sell Sarah? I'm like "she's this amazing bad ass who had 260 units at the peak in her own property management business. They were C class properties that were difficult to deal with. She was able to manage them remotely with one part time person boots on the ground. And she had over 60 percent profit margin." [00:06:20] Sarah: 60 was bad.  [00:06:21] Jason: That was a bad month. Okay. She's flexing now. 70%?  [00:06:26] Sarah: Yeah. Like 70, 80.  [00:06:28] Jason: So this is what we would say. [00:06:30] And also we then talked about some of the results you've gotten clients. Like she's helped some of our clients cut their staffing costs in half from a single call. She's helped some replace some of our clients' entire team and increase their profitability dramatically. Like this sort of thing. [00:06:43] Sarah: I'm good at figuring out how things work and why are they working the way that they're working and how the different pieces fit together? And do we have too many pieces? Do we not have enough pieces? Are there the right people, but maybe they're doing the wrong things? I'm really good at figuring out all of that. [00:06:59] That's just how my brain works. I like to just figure out how things work. And I've done that in every business I've ever worked in. As like an employee and it's uncomfortable for them. It's uncomfortable because I'm like, "why are you doing things like this? You're doing it wrong." [00:07:14] Jason: Yeah. Business owners love their ego shattered by this pretty young lady in their business, I'm sure. [00:07:21] But yeah, you're hurting all these fragile egos. All right.  [00:07:24] Sarah: But clients pay me to do that.  [00:07:26] Jason: Clients pay you. So yeah. So anyway that's how we position Sarah. And so there might be some scenarios in which they might be better off, especially if their challenges are more on team, operations, stuff like this, then I told them like, " then you can sell Sarah to them on this, right?" [00:07:43] So let's talk about what would be included, like what we're going to do. Here's my little roadmap slide, but they can't see that, but we'll show it to you when you get on a call with us. And if you're interested in this, you can easily go book a call at doorgrow.Com. Or just instant message me or anybody on the team on any social and we'll get you on a call and we can tell you more about this or you can just get started by going to our website. [00:08:07] We should have a page up for this very soon. By the time you hear this, probably. And we're working on that this week. All right. Let's talk about the benefits of this. You're going to get clarity on yourself. You're going to get clarity on your business. You're going to get clarity on how to build the right team around you. [00:08:23] To some degree, we're going to help you free up a lot of time. We're going to get you time clarity because time is one of the biggest challenges our clients have. So this is something we coach on a lot. How to free up time. So you have more bandwidth to make more money or to do more of what you want to do. [00:08:39] We may be able to get into some financial stuff a bit to help you find some quick wins financially. And we're going to get you clarity on escaping that solopreneur sand trap or that team sand trap that you might be stuck in right now. And we're going to go over and teach you several powerful frameworks and we're going to apply them to you and to your business in a way that we just can't do by sharing these on a podcast. Like the six core functions, the five currencies, the four reasons, the five exits, and then we're going to get into stackable amplification strategy. So if you want to grow or scale the business faster, understanding each of these strategies and stacking these is going to allow you to grow even faster because you're not wasting time with time wasters or tight kickers or doing the wrong thing. So the more of these you stack, the healthier your mindset, the faster you grow and the more money you make. And so we're going to get into the blue ocean strategy versus the red water, the myth of SEO, the cycle of suck, the four D's to revenue. [00:09:38] That one really increases our clients closing better deals. Lighthouse versus the battleship. Which is prizing and sales. David versus Goliath, dumb David versus smart David. The fifth reason and why you shouldn't be selling property management and what people want instead, and then getting into all the pipeline leaks, we're going to help you. We're going to assess your business and identify the leaks that exist in your sales pipeline, or that exist in the systems in operations so that you have clarity on moving forward. So do you want to take them through the sessions?  [00:10:09] Sarah: Yeah, and I think it's important to know that we don't go over all of those on all of these that would be an immense amount of sessions an immense amount of times  [00:10:17] Jason: Yeah, but we'll go into what they need and what's relevant. [00:10:20] Sarah: So basically what we do is we go in and we have to first assess what your business is like. So on the first call, that's what we're doing. We're digging into your business. What does your day look like? What does your team look like? Do you have a team? Who's handling what? How many doors do you have? [00:10:35] Where are you located? What kind of management do you do? Are you only focusing on long term or are you dabbling in multiple types of management? We're really getting. Into a lot of the details of the business. And then we're also on the call, we're figuring out really, what would your goal be? [00:10:54] Is that what you enjoy doing? And if you could create the business of your dreams, what really would that look like?  [00:11:01] Jason: So yeah, we're going to assess the business. We're going to figure out what have you tried so far towards the things that the business has challenges with. [00:11:08] Thank you. But some of the assessment stuff that we'll do with you will give you a lot of clarity. And then you'll get some homework at the end of this. So we're going to get you started on some time stuff, homework wise, and some assessments for yourself, which leads us to session two.  [00:11:22] Sarah: Call number two. [00:11:23] So then we really dive into you. So we'll look at your time. We'll look at what you're doing and how much time you're spending on certain things. And are you enjoying the things that you're doing or do you feel like you're just spinning a lot of your day? And we'll look at some personality assessments as well so that we can help determine really the things that you actually enjoy doing. [00:11:46] And we'll look at how we can shift you into doing more of those things. And what personality type you may be, everyone has a different personality type and will enjoy doing different things in the business. And a lot of times when I get on calls with clients, I find that people are like, "Oh, I should be doing operations or I should be doing sales and I, like I should be doing this." [00:12:10] And then we start to try to get them closer to those things. And then we realize, no, you shouldn't be getting closer to those things. You should be doing less of those things if those aren't the things that you actually like. Just because you think you have to do them, don't do them if you don't actually like doing them. [00:12:26] So then we find out what they actually like, and then we shift them into doing more of the things that they actually enjoy doing. We've had multiple clients do that and then that changes their entire business.  [00:12:36] Jason: Yeah, this is a big secret to building a business that you actually enjoy being in, building the right team around you. [00:12:43] So getting clarity on yourself will be a big deal. And so we're going to help you understand your personality type a bit more because you're unique and we've got some self assessments that are going to help you figure some of this stuff out. But that clarity alone will help you make some changes in your business. [00:12:58] Doing the time stuff that we will also be assessing during this call, the time stuff that you've started doing. And this will help give you a lot of clarity on how to free up time, how to start to leverage whatever team members you might have more effectively, so that you're getting more yield from the dollars you're spending on staff and payroll. [00:13:14] That alone will probably pay for all of this. All right, then they're going to have some homework to complete some assessments and identify leaks in their pipeline and in their operations and systems, depending on which area they need, if they need growth more, or if they need more on process and ops. [00:13:31] And then that leads us to call number three, session three.  [00:13:35] So basically the third session, we're going to be focused on the systems of the business and identifying which leaks exist. So if the goal is growth, we're going to be getting you clarity on what are the systems and leaks that are a challenge in the growth side of things. [00:13:49] And if it's operations, we're going to be figuring out similarly, what are the leaks and the challenges there? And this will all be applied to our DoorGrow code roadmap and how we can help you scale and map out the future, but we'll be creating clarity around all the leaks that exist and discussing how to resolve them And giving you like your options for what we could be doing in the future and Your homework on this will be to get clear on what you want to get from your future with DoorGrow because that's what we're going to talk about in the next video Session four is coming up with the plan. [00:14:19] So first session: business, second session: you third session: systems, fourth session is the plan.  [00:14:25] Sarah: We give you a personalized roadmap, which is really great because now we have we really understand you and really understand where you are in the business and where you'd like to be. [00:14:33] So now we can give you a personalized roadmap that will get you closer to where you want to be and that roadmap will apply whether or not you continue on working with us. Yeah, so that is not something that it's like, "oh I only get this if I work with DoorGrow." No, you'll get it and you'll have it and you'll know What are the next steps that you need to take in your business regardless of whether you work with us. [00:14:54] Of course we want you to, but you don't have to. [00:14:56] Jason: So the benefit of going through this planning and discovery is one We will really get to know you and your business and how we can help you at a greater level of depth, which is awesome that we do a lot of this during the onboarding process, usually for our mastermind clients. [00:15:10] So we'll get to get very familiar and you'll be able to then know that I, at the end of this, I don't think you'll trust anybody else really to help you move your business forward because you'll be getting a lot of insight, ideas, knowledge, wisdom, and clarity, the most important thing, on how to move your business forward. [00:15:28] And we will paint a really nice future with DoorGrow of how we can support you and help you. And even if you don't decide to work with us, like Sarah's saying, and you just do this. You will walk away with more time, more clarity on your team, more clarity on yourself, and some ideas of how to move the business forward to get to the next level. [00:15:47] And I think at that point, though, you probably won't want to do it without us is our intention and goal. Like we know that we can support you in moving and going through this faster and helping you collapse time and it'll easily be worth the cost. And so you can go through this now here's the kicker where this gets even more awesome. If you do all this with us, it's a thousand bucks, you do these four sessions. And we take maybe a month or so to go through this, maybe less, but we're working together for a few weeks. At the end of this, on the fourth session and when we give you, "here's everything that you could be doing with us, and here's how we could get to the next level. And this is personalized to you." If you decide to continue moving forward with us, this thousand dollars will be applied towards the next thing with DoorGrow. So it's like the lowest risk thing ever. [00:16:34] And if you decide to walk away, you spend a thousand bucks and you've gotten easily more than a thousand dollars worth of value, but we'll apply the thousand dollars towards the setup or towards the in person events or whatever is coming next for you to join in on the mastermind. No brainer, right? [00:16:51] Super low risk, right? So we're that confident in what we can do and help you and how we can help you moving forward. So that's just the idea of our planning and discovery. So anything else we should say about this? [00:17:04] Sarah: I think that when we were creating this, just the one thing that I wanted to make sure is that it's really valuable as a standalone thing. [00:17:14] Yeah. You do not need to do anything else. It's not "Oh, Hey, at the end, like we're going to shove DoorGrow down your throat." We're not, it's going to be very valuable all on its own and in its own, right. Also, we wanted to make sure that the price point was really accessible to people because to get on a call with Jason or myself, our time is very valuable. [00:17:34] So we have made this at a hugely discounted rate. So like our normal rate is $1,000 an hour. So this is at a very accessible price point. And we wanted to make sure that we can do that because sometimes we talk with people and they hear everything. What we're all about and what we do and how much we can really help property managers. [00:17:54] And they're like, "oh my God, that's amazing. I just don't know if i'm ready for the mastermind yet, or I don't know if I can afford the mastermind. I don't know if I can make that move yet." And we wanted to be able to help more people and I think this is a really good way to do that.  [00:18:08] Jason: Yeah, I think just some of the things they'll go through with us and learn just in doing this will help them get to the point where they can then do the mastermind and have the funds to do it. [00:18:18] We'll help them collapse time and we'll help them figure out some ways to generate some more income as well. For those that are larger companies, this should be an easy no brainer. And we may not do this forever. We may not, this may be too costly in terms of time and energy for Sarah and I to do in the business while running DoorGrow with the hundreds of clients that we have. [00:18:40] But this is the offer and I think it's an awesome offer. And get in on it while you can. It's really cool. Personalized coaching with the two of us and we get to see inside hundreds of companies. We get to help them figure out how to grow and scale their businesses. And having that personalized time, you're going to get some value and you'll be able to ask questions and we'll be able to move forward. [00:19:00] Think that's basically it. So if you're interested in this, you can reach out to us at doorgrow.com or message us on social media and we can get you a link to get the call scheduled for your first session with us for this and get you the payment link so you can invest in yourself and invest in collapsing time and invest in moving your business forward with a coach. [00:19:19] Okay. Yeah. All right. All right. That's it.  [00:19:23] Yeah.  [00:19:23] All right. Until next time then to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:19:26] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:19:53] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Property management entrepreneurs… how many hats are you currently wearing? It's easy for business owners to get stuck doing things they don't actually enjoy doing. Property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about how to get out of the roles you don't enjoy and into the roles you do. You'll Learn [03:17] The myth of wanting to clone yourself [07:51] The pros of a great hiring system [13:46] Which hat do you take off first? [17:58] Next steps Tweetables “That you need 10 people to clone yourself as an entrepreneur.” “A generalist that's good at everything is never the best.” “For every role that exists, there's always a person to fill it who actually really love doing that role.” “If you have office politics, you've got a culture problem.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: For every role that exists, there's always a person to fill it who actually really love doing that role.  [00:00:09] Jason: Welcome DoorGrowers, to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:03] Now let's get into the show. All right, so we released a funny video. So if you have not seen any of our funny videos, we put out quite a few of these. We have a whole playlist of them on YouTube. You can go to youtube.com/doorgrow and go to our playlist and look for our playlist of funny videos. Our newest funny video that we released is all about hats. [00:01:28] It's got a whole bunch of hats and it's silly, and I'm putting on different hats, and so if you want to laugh at me. Go check that out. we thought we would talk about this idea today. So what's the idea?  [00:01:40] Sarah: So the idea is are you wearing too many hats, aka are you filling too many roles in your property management business?  [00:01:50] Jason: All right, so when you first start out, you have to wear every hat, right? [00:01:55] You do everything in the business because it's all on you. You're like, "Oh, let me send that over to my maintenance coordinator... who's me. And let me get that over to my bookkeeper... who is also me. And Oh, my receptionist will answer my calls for me today because that's me." What are some of the hats that property managers are wearing. [00:02:15] Sarah: There's so many of them. Let's see. There's maintenance coordinator, a leasing agent, there's usually the bookkeeper, whoever's going to handle finances, there's of course the CEO who's going to set the vision of the company, there's the operator who's going to do things on the backend, there's the salesperson or the BDM, there's usually like a property manager, there's sometimes assistant property managers... As companies grow, they sometimes get tenant coordinators or client coordinators like just to handle like tenant or client communications. But when you start out, like all of this is usually you. [00:02:55] Jason: One of the things that I hear a lot from early stage entrepreneurs, people that are just getting started is they're like, "I just need to clone myself. I just need to find somebody else. Just like me." And so this is the big mistake that everybody makes initially in hiring. It's everybody does it like we all go and try and find somebody like ourselves. [00:03:15] That's what we think hiring is. We think hiring is cloning ourselves. The challenge with that is that the clone myth, as I call it, the reality is that you need 10 people to clone yourself as an entrepreneur. You need a different person for each hat. [00:03:32] Because if you find somebody that is as adaptable as you and that can do everything like you and is driven like you, guess what they're going to do? They're going to do what you did and they're going to leave and go start their own company. I've seen this over and over again where people hire a clone and the clone does exactly what a clone would do. They become like you and they leave and sometimes take your clients and start their own business and become your competition. And so we don't want to fall prey to the clone myth. We want to find specialists that we can give pieces of what we do or hats to that are really good at that particular hat and a generalist that's good at everything is never the best. [00:04:17] You are not the best at every role. You probably think, "nobody else could do it as good as me." This is the other belief that early stage entrepreneurs say. "Nobody else can do it as well as me. I might as well do it myself." And that's a trap. It's a trap that keeps you doing everything forever. And if you believe that, then that means you will by default be comfortable getting crappy team members that are worse than you at these hats. [00:04:42] Because if you believe that you're the best and nobody else could be better than you, then you will go hire people and you will tolerate people that are worse than you at these particular roles. And then you'll be frustrated and I have a team of people that are better at their particular roles than I would be and this gives me a lot of confidence being able to let go of stuff. Like Sarah is way better at the details way better operations way better at putting things together. Like you've significantly improved the business and she's better at all of those things than I am and there's things that I'm better at than Sarah, but that allows me to stay in those areas I get to stay in those areas where I am better at those things than Sarah and then we have different team members Adam, and Mar, and they're all better at their particular tasks than I would be. [00:05:31] Sarah: Or I would be. Yeah.  [00:05:33] Absolutely. And that's what you want, is you want someone who is better at whatever this is than you are, especially if you don't enjoy it. So if you've got things in your business that you're holding on to and you think, "oh, I'll just never find somebody who loves maintenance coordination. Like who on the world would love to do that job because it's horrible?" Somebody will love it. [00:05:59] Somebody who likes details and organization and they like having a plan and a structure and a system. There are people who function that way and they really enjoy that. And it's so funny because Jason was like, "for every role that exists, there's always a person to fill it who actually really love doing that role." And it's true. It's really true.  [00:06:22] Jason: That's a good point because early stage entrepreneurs also believe that because they hate doing something like if you hate maintenance coordination, you're like, "man, if I never have to do another maintenance escalation or talk to a tenant again, I'd be so happy." [00:06:37] A lot of times entrepreneurs believe that means nobody else would like it either. It's really a self centered, self centric view to believe that the rest of the world are like you. They're not. Like one of my mentors would say, there are people out there that like changing bedpans, you know? [00:06:52] And I've said that to some people that were nurses or something like that. And they're like, "yeah, I do. I feel like I'm helping them."  [00:06:58] And I'm like, "that's great. I wouldn't want to do that.  [00:07:00] Sarah: Like Evelyn, she says, "I don't like the changing of the bedpans, but I do like that when I do that, I know that I'm helping somebody who can't do it for themselves." [00:07:07] Jason: Yeah. And so she's happy to do it.  [00:07:10] Sarah: You can't pay me enough money in this world to change a bedpan.  [00:07:13] Jason: There is not enough money in this entire universe. That's my sister in law. And yeah that's wild. And so I want everyone listening to believe that there are people out there that can do the things that are your minus signs. [00:07:26] You can find people that's their plus signs and they will do it better than you. If you believe there are people out there that can do it better than you, there's a lot of dinosaur bosses. This is how you know you're a dinosaur boss. If you're the person that just believes everybody in the younger generation is terrible and there's no good hires out there available and nobody wants to work, then guess what you're going to find and attract when you go onto your job search? [00:07:51] There are great people out there. And if you build a really good hiring process, you can find and attract them. But the great people don't want to work for a dinosaur boss, like somebody that just believes that 'if I pay you, you should just do it and you should just like it and just suck it up.' [00:08:06] Because that's not very inspiring and people have options nowadays. They don't have to stay at a job very long. They can go work elsewhere. And the way that we retain team members is we create a culture of people that all share the same vision, same mission to transform property management, business owners. [00:08:23] And because we hire specialists and hire people that are really dialed in personality wise for that particular role that we know they can be great at it. And because each of our team members are great, it creates this sense of mutual respect on the team. Everybody on our team likes each other. Yeah. And they respect each other. [00:08:42] And in our daily huddles, they're like celebrating each other and sharing, like pointing out how awesome different team members were because they can see that these team members are really good at the things they do and it's things they're not good at or wouldn't want to have to do.  [00:08:57] Sarah: Morgan just said, I think, when she came back from leave, I was catching up with her. And then she was on some coaching calls with clients and she shared part of it with me. And I just had this conversation with one of our clients, and she said, "everybody on our team. I love them. Like I really like these people. I work with them every day, but I really enjoy working with them." And she said, "if anybody on the team came to me with any task and said, 'Hey, like I could really use your help on this.'" She says, "I would do it in a heartbeat. I wouldn't even flinch. I would do it in a heartbeat and I would want to do it because I care about these people and I want to help them."  [00:09:34] Jason: And that's because we've created a culture initially entirely around what I want. Like I as the visionary gets to set the culture of the company and I created values and everything. [00:09:47] Now, when Sarah became an owner, we took a fresh look at them. And we revisit them and then I don't think we really changed much.  [00:09:55] Sarah: No, we didn't. I gave her an opportunity to have input, but... [00:09:59] would you, if I wasn't a value match, would you have brought me into the company? You wouldn't have hired me, but nevermind ownership of the company. You don't give ownership of a company to somebody that's like not a culture.  [00:10:10] Jason: If you weren't a value match, we probably wouldn't be married. And so this is the thing. There's a lot of couples in property management. I've noticed we get a lot of couple clients, husband and wife teams. [00:10:21] And it's very typical that the husband is more visionary, sales, wild, cowboy, entrepreneur and that the wife is like stable, crusher of all hopes and dreams, just kidding, grounded, practical, make sure everything works operator personality type. Yeah.  [00:10:38] Sarah: Sometimes we do see, they're like, "we're going to do this crazy big thing!" [00:10:41] And operators were like, "we can't afford that. Cool, but that sounds really insane. So what can we actually do and how can we actually make it happen?" So like we are the ones who make sure that things happen instead of just,  [00:10:57] Jason: yeah.  [00:10:57] Sarah: We're not the crusher of the dreams. [00:10:58] We're the dream makers.  [00:11:00] Jason: They're the dream. Yeah. They bring it into reality. The "maker-happeners". ,  [00:11:04] That's good. That's really good.  [00:11:05] Sarah: It's so good. Madi's going to laugh so hard when she's editing this. She's going to go, "that's not a word."  [00:11:10] Jason: Maker-happeners.  [00:11:11] Sarah: The word now, Madi.  [00:11:13] Jason: This is my Maker-happener. [00:11:15] And yeah, we've got this mutual respect that exists on the team, and if you don't like your team, be honest. If your team increases your pressure and noise, if they stress you out, if you are frustrated at your team members, you have the wrong team and it's your fault. You created it, you allowed it, and you kept these people because you probably thought that's just how business works or that's what's available.  [00:11:40] Sarah: Even if you're like, "Oh no, I like everybody," but does everybody like everybody else? Because if your team doesn't like each other, how quick do you think they're going to be to really jump in and help the other one? Because everybody needs help at some point. [00:11:52] Like deadlines come and things happen or whatever. Like summer happens and we're like, "Oh my God! I thought like I had more time on this and all these leases are due. Can somebody help me?" There is going to be a point in which someone on your team needs help from somebody else that doesn't usually do that thing. [00:12:07] And if they don't like each other, they're not going to help each other. They're going to go, "Oh yeah, look at Susie. She can't even do her own job."  [00:12:14] Jason: Yeah. If you have office politics, you've got a culture problem. If you've got you may have team members that secretly don't even like you and you may not know it, but you can tell. You can feel it. [00:12:25] Most employees probably here in the U. S., that standard American employee doesn't really like their job. They just want safety and certainty. They want stability. They're not there because it's giving them a sense of fulfillment, freedom, contribution, support. It's like the best thing and they love it. [00:12:41] So that means they're B players. A players are what we have on our team at DoorGrow. B players are what one of my mentors called hiders. Their secret goal if they were really honest would be to do as little work as possible, get paid as much as possible, and then they go and complain about you and live for the weekend. [00:13:02] And so if they love the weekend way more than they love their day-to-day, there's probably a problem. Like you want team members that are like, "man, I'm really excited. I love getting to do what I get to do." If I didn't have the role that I have or get to do what I get to do, I would feel probably lost, depressed, and bored out of my mind. [00:13:23] I love getting to do what I get to do. And my guess is that most of the people on my team would probably feel that same way. If they just had nothing to do. So I don't know, maybe there's some that would love to just not work ever a day in their life. I don't know. But for me, that would be crazy. [00:13:39] Sarah: Not anymore.  [00:13:40] Jason: So what else can we talk about related to getting rid of these hats? Because in the beginning they're wearing every hat. How did they decide which had to get off first?  [00:13:49] Sarah: What are the things that you like? Because those are the things you should keep. [00:13:54] And not just "Oh, that's annoying," or like "it's okay, but I don't love it." The things that you really don't like, the things where, like for me it was talking to tenants, that was what it was for me, and sales. I hated sales. I hated doing sales. I was really good at it, but I just, I hated it. Look at, the things that you do and the things that you like, you tend to get them done pretty quickly. Yeah, if you like going through emails. You're going to do that and there's going to be very little friction there. [00:14:23] No one's going to have to say "Oh, did you check your email?" But if you hate going through emails and you're like, "oh my god. Like why is email even a thing? I don't even know why we have to do this," You're going to procrastinate. Yeah. It's going to build up and you're probably not the right person to be doing it. [00:14:41] Jason: Yeah. If there's anything that's been on your to do list for more than a month, it's probably because you are not the person that should be doing it. That's a pretty big clue. One of the big mistakes I see people make when getting their initial hire is they try and find team members to wear multiple hats. [00:14:57] They're like, "I'm going to get an appointment setter slash assistant."  [00:15:02] Sarah: My favorite is, "my operator is also going to do sales for me."  [00:15:05] Jason: Oh yeah.  [00:15:06] Sarah: No, they're not.  [00:15:08] Jason: And why that's a problem is these are opposite personality types. If we're picking people that are two different personality types. If we're giving them a role that's two different personality types, then we are setting them up for some sort of failure. [00:15:21] And they're not going to really do well at the one that is not their personality type. And so we need to make sure we're not throwing multiple hats onto a person. We're trying to offload multiple hats that are different personality types. It's not going to work. We need specialists that are the right personality for the role. [00:15:39] So at DoorGrow, we are experts on matching the right personality types, knowing the personality types that you need for particular roles. There's a certain personality type for a BDM, for an operator, for a receptionist, for maintenance coordinator, property manager, leasing agent. [00:15:54] There's certain personality types that are good at these. And if you hire based on skill, you will miss the personality. And so hiring based on personality and based on culture are more important for the team and for the role. So usually the first person that we recommend in our DoorGrow code that most entrepreneurs get initially to get the most leverage would be an assistant. [00:16:19] Like maybe around 50 units, you should have your own assistant. But we've got clients that come to us with hundreds of doors and they still don't even have an assistant for themselves. They just keep hiring to take care of the business while not taking care of themselves. So they're not really taking hats off or giving up stuff. [00:16:35] They're just helping the business out. And so they end up more and more stressed the bigger the team gets. So a big piece of this is you need to make sure that you are taking care of yourself and the way we help our clients get clarity on themselves in clarity on what are their minus signs versus their plus signs, what they, what drains them versus what gives them energy is by doing a time study. [00:16:57] And this gives them a lot of clarity on how do I get to the next level? How do I offload the negative things so that I can spend more time in my area of genius and wearing the hats that I want to wear? And then we build out job descriptions and et cetera. So we have this whole process for taking entrepreneurs through to give them a lot of clarity. [00:17:14] Then later. Maybe around 200 plus the most important hire that you will ever make in the business will be to get an operator. If your spouse is already an operator, then you already have the most important person that you will ever bring into the business on your team, which is amazing and awesome. This person needs to be very intelligent. [00:17:34] They need to be sharp. They need to be driven to getting systems and processes dialed in. They want to see the business succeed. They handle all the details. They make everything work and they make sure that the team makes everything work. And this allows you to spend more time in the visionary role or in the sales role or whatever it is as a visionary entrepreneur that you really enjoy. [00:17:55] All right. Anything else related to hats?  [00:17:58] Sarah: So I think if you're listening to this and you're going, "yeah, but I'm still doing all this stuff and I would like to offload that, but I don't think I have the money to offload that," because this is what we hear next is, "yeah, that would be great, but I can't afford it. I can't afford to hire, two or three or eight people."  [00:18:18] Jason: So we have processes for this, but we have to back you out of the corner. You've painted yourself into, so first we do need to get you clarity on what you do enjoy and what would make you more money because it doesn't make sense to go get somebody if you could create more leverage, right? And so sometimes it's about creating more leverage related to time right now. So we have processes for helping you get even more done. Like one of my clients did a time study and recently and said that he had found that he was spending an hour after three o'clock, he was spending an hour to get things done that took him 10 minutes in the morning. [00:18:56] And so part of it is just clarity on your circadian rhythm, your time, like your energy, whether you're getting good enough sleep. So we worked on some hacks to increase his brain's bandwidth so that he could do more later in the day and get a lot more done. This may triple the output of what he can accomplish. [00:19:15] Then we have processes like daily planning time studies. We have these different things that help you get more yield from your day. We have a training called the priorities training. It talks about how Sarah was able to run her business with over 60 percent profit margin with only one part time person up to 260 units. [00:19:34] Which is crazy. They add units too.  [00:19:36] Yeah. C class properties. Yeah. In a rough area. Yeah. And she was able to reduce a lot of the communication, a lot of the friction and systematize the business so that it could run very efficiently. And so we train clients on how to do that. We get people come to us and they're like, "I'm burnt out at 50 units." [00:19:55] Sometimes they're like, "I'm stuck at a hundred units. Like I just can't handle anymore." And you can. There's ways of making this easier.  [00:20:04] Sarah: But you can't give nothing changes, right? So if everything stays the same, you're right. You can't, but you need to make some changes probably to yourself and in your business. [00:20:15] And then all of a sudden it will allow more space and you'll be able to add on more units.  [00:20:21] Jason: This is where good coaching comes in is we can help you get more yield from your day, create more bandwidth so that you can spend more time growing the business. We give you the strategies to grow. You make more money. [00:20:32] So a lot of times clients come to us in that scenario. I'm like, "let's create some space and then let's get you focusing on revenue generating stuff. Let's get you making a lot more money. And then let's make sure we hire what you actually need most. So you can spend more time making more money because then you're making smart, strategic moves when you hire. Instead of just hiring what the business needs, which can be really expensive if you make mistakes. And if you get any bad hires, we have a really great hiring system called DoorGrow hiring. One bad hire is going to cost you minimum 10 grand because you're going to spend probably at least three months on them of pay, there's a certain amount of money they're going to cost you and you're going to lose out on because they weren't generating revenue or helping to keep revenue. So there's a lot like bad hires are one of the most expensive and costly things you can do and it eats up your time, which is the most valuable resource in the business. [00:21:24] When you're onboarding and training somebody that's never going to be good at it. And so we can help with that as well, helping you get really good team members and collapse time on hiring. We've helped companies replace entire teams, cut their staffing costs in half like overnight, she does this stuff and and build out really good hiring systems and processes so that you can get people quickly and scale quickly as you're adding doors. [00:21:49] We have the stuff to help with all of that.  [00:21:51] Sarah: We do. Cool. If you're hearing this and you're like, "man, that would be really nice, then you should reach out. Contact us. Get on a call. Go to doorgrow.Com. You can see what we're all about, what we do. You can book a call. If you're like, "hey, this is for me and I'm ready to go right now," cool. [00:22:06] Sign up. Join our mastermind and you'll have some awesome coaches to support you.  [00:22:10] Jason: Yeah. Some of you listening are feeling really stressed out. Every business owner has been there. Some of you listening have felt really stuck. [00:22:19] It's just things aren't moving forward. You can't figure out why the marketing stuff isn't working. You're not really adding doors. You're not getting ahead. You're getting stressed. You're getting burnt out. You probably cannot see yourself doing this for five more years. And you need to reach out for help. [00:22:36] One of the most difficult things for entrepreneurs to do in especially early stage entrepreneurs is to humble ourselves. To be humble and to realize we could use some help and ask for help. We just we always think we can handle it all ourselves, like we've got it. "If I just watch enough youtube videos or try and get enough free stuff I can figure out." Or "if I just work hard enough I can save a dollar and do it myself or if I read enough books..." and so our goal at DoorGrow is to help you collapse time and make a lot more money. You can probably figure it all out, and I've seen people work really hard at doing this, but it will probably take you a decade to figure it all out. Whereas we could probably help you figure it out in a small fraction of the time. We've done it over and over again. So if you're feeling stuck or frustrated, reach out to us, let us help you make it make sense financially. We will help you justify the financial expense of working with us because really, a good coaching program should be making you money, not costing you money. [00:23:40] And if you do what we tell you to do, you will be making more money. Our program pays for itself. This is why we have probably the lowest churn rate in the entire industry. We keep clients because they're winning. [00:23:52] So reach out to us at DoorGrow. We would love to help you get going.  [00:23:55] Sarah: Be open, just be open to do things a little differently. [00:23:59] And if that's the case, if you are interested at all in having your company and your business and your life, just be better and different than this might be for you.  [00:24:11] Jason: The slowest path to growth is to do it all yourself or to think you can do it all yourself. That is it for today. So until next time to our mutual growth. Make sure you join our facebook group at doorgrowclub.Com. We have a bunch of free stuff in there and reach out to us at DoorGrow at doorgrow.Com We would love to help you grow your business. Bye everyone [00:24:30] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:24:57] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

We all catch ourselves saying, “I just don't have enough time,” especially as a property management business owner.  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull talk about the excuse of not having enough time and using time more effectively in property management. You'll Learn [01:25] The excuse of not having enough time [05:29] You can buy more time [10:08] Energy management vs. time management [13:23] Doing a time study [16:04] Don't fight your natural energy level Tweetables “It's not actually true to say we don't have time. What we're really saying is, ‘This is not a priority for me right now.'” “Time is a currency you can buy.” “You should not be trading your time for money. If you own a business.” “It's really about energy management, not time management when you're an entrepreneur.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: It's really about energy management, not time management when you're an entrepreneur. It's about managing that currency of energy. And what I find is we have endless amounts of energy if we're doing the things that we love, that we enjoy doing.  [00:00:15] Welcome DoorGrowers, to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull, the owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:09] Now let's get into the show. All right. So the topic we discussed last night about talking about on the podcast today is time.  [00:01:20] Time excuse. "I don't have enough time." [00:01:23] We hear this a lot. Every day. "I don't have time. I don't have time. I don't have enough time to do this." So we're talking about the time excuse and You know sometimes... we've got this amazing mastermind. Sometimes clients want to cancel. And we have a really low churn rate. We keep clients, so we're usually surprised when somebody wants to cancel. And when we find out and ask why, we got this from one of our mentors, but we now ask the question, "is this a time thing or a money thing?" Which has proven to be really effective because a lot of times it's just a time thing and time is easily solvable. [00:01:59] If it's a money thing, then that's easily solvable too. That's easily solvable too. Just a different route. That's all. So let's talk about time. I've got two clients right now actually that it was a time thing and they're still staying in the program and it's very easy to keep people in the program if it's just a time thing because they're always like, "Oh, we love the program. I just, I don't have time to do all this stuff right now." So what do we say about time?  [00:02:21] Sarah: So this is, I think the thing that I hear the most from property managers. Period. Just, especially in this business is, "Oh my God, I just don't have time for anything. Like I feel like I'm spending my whole day working," and we'll come across clients who are working anywhere from eight to 16 hours a day and that's normal for them. [00:02:45] Jason: Yeah. So it's our job to get them out of that. Yeah.  [00:02:49] Sarah: If you're working eight to 16 hours a day, I'm talking to you.  [00:02:53] Jason: So we have a training that we did once called the priorities training, and it was all about time really. But the reason we called it the priorities training is because saying, "I don't have time," is a very victim sort of phrase. [00:03:05] It's not actually true. You can't legitimately go to any other human being on the planet and say, "I don't have time" when we all are allotted the same number of hours in a day. We've all been given the same amount of currency each day. What's different though, it's not actually true to say we don't have time. [00:03:23] What we're really saying is "this is not a priority for me right now." Or our priorities are just off. So it's really more about priorities. The more honest answer is "I am not making time for this right now because I'm prioritizing something else." And so if you're the type of person that goes around saying, "I don't have time. I don't have time for this," then you are using victim language. This is not effective language if you want to actually be in control of your life. You recognize that you are the creator of your universe, your life, your world. Like you have choice, right? And to walk around saying, "I don't have time" is like putting on the blinders and saying, "the world just takes control of everything I have to do. I have no control of my life," right? You're not a slave. You're not a servant to somebody else. You have control and autonomy over your time. And so you're just making choices. And so the more honest answer would be not to say, "I don't have time," would be to say, "I'm choosing something else right now," right? [00:04:25] Be honest about that. If what you're spending, what you think you should be spending your time on is not really your priority, then maybe you're not really being honest with yourself. Maybe your priority is something else. Maybe your priority right now is family. Maybe your priority right now is another business. [00:04:39] We run into this with clients sometimes, their priority is their brokerage. And they're doing real estate deals. It's not the property management side.  [00:04:45] Sarah: And in the property management side, sometimes their focus is the property management side, but they're prioritizing all the wrong things. [00:04:53] Yeah. They're prioritizing all the little things that the day to day tactical work that has to be done. It has to be done by somebody, but it doesn't probably have to be done by you, right?  [00:05:05] Jason: So what I find is even the two clients that I'm coaching right now helping them get out of this time sort of constraint, they both have assistants, they have team members. [00:05:14] They have an assistant? Yeah, they have assistants. And so what's really funny is that when we say we don't have time and then we are paying other people for their time so that we can have more time, then we're missing something. We're not doing something effective.  [00:05:29] Sarah: Time is a currency you can buy. Yeah. So to say, "Oh I don't have enough time." You have the same amount of time that everybody else has. Some people are just more effective with their time than others, which is why they're able to do so much or do so much so quickly or be so successful. However, with time, that's the beauty of it is you can literally purchase more time. [00:05:50] You can purchase time of another human being. Yeah. To help move your business forward.  [00:05:54] Jason: So one of the concepts that I got from one of my mentors in the past, Alex Charfen, he shared this concept called the five currencies and the five currencies that you have to invest in your own life and in your business are time, energy, focus, cash, and effort. [00:06:11] Now, I believe the most important of those, the scarcest resource of all those is time. We're all going to die. Time is the most significant currency. Time is the most significant currency. It's the most limited. We can do a lot of things to try and have more time and live life a little longer. [00:06:31] But time is a limited currency. The other ones. We can maximize, but we can't generally do a whole lot to maximize time. We can do a lot to shorten it. So we buy time, right? What's crazy to me though, is that when people start working, they don't have a lot, right? When people start into the workforce, the one thing they can sell though is pieces of their life. [00:06:54] They can sell time. So it's pretty wild that I can go out into the marketplace. And I can buy people's time. Like they will pay, like I can give them money and they will give me chunks of their life. They're like, "here you go." As a business owner, we want to get out of the trap of being paid for our time. [00:07:12] We don't want to be paid an hourly wage or being taking care of like hourly. We want to get out of the time trap.  [00:07:20] Sarah: You should not be trading your time for money. If you own a business.  [00:07:24] Jason: Smart business owners are buying people's time with money and not giving their time for money. And so we want to shift that as a business owner and property management is a great business model for that. You can create a lot of leverage. You can build up a lot of doors in your portfolio, and it's not about time. It's not about, Oh I have this many hours. It's all me, right? You can systematize the business. You can get other people to do things for you. [00:07:45] And so we want to. I want to make sure that we make time something enjoyable. And so we've talked about the four reasons before, but we want to make sure you have more fulfillment in the time that you're spending, that you have more freedom, more a sense of autonomy, more a sense of contribution and more support from your team, right? [00:08:06] The four reasons. And then there's a fifth reason of safety and certainty. So we want to get more and more of those as the business progresses and as we grow in the business and as we grow in entrepreneurship. But a lot of business owners end up with less and less time, less and less fulfillment, less and less freedom, less and less of a sense of like of contribution. [00:08:27] And they then burn themselves out even as they build a team. So we want to make sure that we don't do. But what are some of the time excuses or time challenges and then maybe we can talk about how we deal with those briefly and how to get  [00:08:41] Sarah: out of it. I think what's probably. Because there's a gazillion excuses you can come up with, right? [00:08:47] Leases take forever or tenants always call me or what, whatever it is. And every in, in every business, there's always going to be an infinite number of things that can just eat up all of your time. That's how it works in every business. This is how it works. What we need to do though, is really figure out what are the things that I actually enjoy doing and how can I do more of those things? [00:09:08] And then the things that I really hate doing, how can I do less of those things? So how would the time that I have, and if I'm willing to invest, because every minute that you put into your business is an investment. So if you're willing to invest eight hours a day in your business, and if you're working for someone else, it just means you're investing eight hours a day into their business, right? [00:09:31] So you might as well invest in your own. So if you're investing eight hours a day into your business, what can I do in those eight hours a day to really make a difference? And what? In those eight hours a day, can I do that's going to make me happy? Because if you're spending eight hours a day and you hate every minute of it and you're going, "oh my god Is it five o'clock yet? Like I can't wait for this to be over. Is it the weekend yet? Because I can't wait for that to be done," Then you're probably doing the wrong things in your business, and you need to be able to purchase somebody else's time to offload those things that somebody else would actually enjoy doing  [00:10:08] Jason: So it's really about energy management, not time management when you're an entrepreneur. [00:10:13] It's about managing that currency of energy. And what I find is we have endless amounts of energy if we're doing the things that we love, that we enjoy doing. It like gives us energy. Those are our plus signs energetically.  [00:10:26] Sarah: If you're charging our batteries at a party and they just go. The party is done and they're still gabbing away and they're like handing out, whatever and they're like, "oh, let me get your number Oh, let me hook up with you and let me like get-" It's like "guys, wrap up." But there's like that one person who's still going and it's like you have to kick him You're like I don't care where you go. Just don't go here anymore. Go take this elsewhere That's because they really enjoy that. They're like in their element. They're like, "I love talking to people. I love connecting with people. I love networking. I love this. They can do it all day long." Me, I can't do that because I'm much more of an introvert. [00:11:04] So the things that you really enjoy truly will energize you. And you'll find them fun and you want to do them instead of just constantly checking the clock. "What time is it now? How long? Oh, geez. How many more calls do I have to do? Oh, I have to do two hours of calls a day. Ah, crap. All right. Like maybe I can dial real slow."  [00:11:20] Jason: Yeah. And so I think one of the mistakes we make early in the early stages and entrepreneurs, we assume that we need to find people like ourselves. Or we just do because we like ourselves to some degree. But we want to find people that their plus signs are our minus signs, right? [00:11:37] That's where they're a match for us, right? So there are a lot of things that Sarah enjoys that I do not enjoy. He would not. And there's definitely things that are the reverse. right? And you want to find and build a team of people that basically are happy and enjoy your minus signs and are not like you. [00:11:58] Instead of making the assumption, "this sucks, and now I got to find somebody to give this sucky thing to, because I hate maintenance coordination. And now I got to find somebody else that's going to hate it." When you make those assumptions, then you sometimes attract people that are like you and that hate it. But you need to find people that's their plus sign. So we can keep everybody in your team in their plus signs. And if you're not in your plus signs, your team members definitely aren't. It's just really rare that you'll have a business owner that's absolutely miserable, they are holding onto all these hats and things they don't enjoy wearing... so we got to make sure that we move the things off our plate onto people's plates that enjoy it, but you cannot build the right team for you around the wrong person. [00:12:38] You have to be showing up as the right person. You have to constantly be moving towards your plus signs. So how do we get you out of all the minus signs and focus on the plus signs? So these two clients, I've got them doing a two week time study right now. And this is the foundation. [00:12:51] This is the foundation of getting clarity on what things do I enjoy and don't I enjoy because sometimes as entrepreneurs, we just tolerate a lot. It becomes white noise. We just do what we feel like we're supposed to do. " I'm the boss. I have to do sales or I'm the boss. I have to do the accounting" and there's really nothing you have to be doing in the business. [00:13:09] Sarah: And just because you can do it doesn't mean you enjoy doing it. So can you fill all the roles in your business? Yeah. Because at some point it was just you. So of course you can do it, but it doesn't mean that you like doing it.  [00:13:23] Jason: So they're doing their time studies and they got to do it for two weeks because the first week they learn a lot of things. [00:13:27] Like we found three major problems in my coaching call with one of the clients that's been doing his time study already for a week, three major time problems. Like one was he was spending an hour to do something after three o'clock. It was taking him an hour to do something that takes him 10 minutes to do in the morning, right? [00:13:44] So we talked about. His time and how he's becoming less effective at the end of the day because his brain chemicals aren't properly functioning. And then it related to sleep. And so then we were like, "okay, we've got to figure out some hacks for sleep. How do we get the circadian rhythm?" Because he believed his rhythm was messed up because of like working nights previously for a long time. So he had this belief that he was on a schedule. I'm like, "okay we can get your body on a different schedule and affect the circadian rhythm by using light, sunlight in the morning and stuff like this" and some other hacks. So we got into that and that he had two other major issues and he wasn't leveraging his assistant properly. He wasn't doing daily planning. And these are super easy things to install to create a lot more productivity and a lot more space and to actually leverage the team members that this particular client has. [00:14:34] And so the second week of his time study is going to look very different than the first week. Now, the other mistake we make when it comes to time is our team members will say, "I don't have any more time. So when your team members say that, what I find is it's also still a lie, right? And so usually, I'll have my team members do a time study to prove it. [00:14:53] And usually the first time study that a team member does, they magically have 30 percent more time available. Almost always. So it usually takes about two or three time studies before they legitimately need an assistant or some support or you need to hire or get some help or advice, get some software or whatever. [00:15:11] But after you do a time study, a lot of clarity comes out. You're like, "why are you spending four hours doing this?" " This happens and it does this." And you're like, "cool, let's solve that problem." So you'll be able to use your creativity and your innovative mind as to solve problems time wise for your team members. [00:15:27] And this allows you to get a lot more yield from your existing team, rather than just assuming because they're busy that they are productive and they are doing everything that you need them to do and that you need to go hire more people because then you artificially are building out a much more expensive team than you actually need. [00:15:47] It's not based on proof or reality and the evidence or proof that you need an assistant and what you should have your assistant do. And that eventually that. Assistant or team member needs their own assistant is all should be based on time studies should be based on looking at time  [00:16:04] Sarah: You brought up something you touched on it really quickly that I've taught on this on the scale call I think a few times is figuring out what your energy levels are like and don't try to fight your body like literally every body is different. [00:16:19] So some people they're morning people like this one. Some people are not like me. So if you feel really energized in the morning, then utilize that time. And use that time when you feel fresh, when you feel energized, when you feel like, "Hey, I'm like, good to go," use that time to do the most, either the most difficult thing or the thing that's going to take the most amount of brain power. [00:16:46] Or if you're doing something like sales and you feel like you're in your element, do it then. And if you're more like me where I'm more effective in the afternoon, then. Shift those things to the afternoon. But a lot of times people, they go, "Oh, I have to do this. And it's like sales secrets will say that the morning is the best time to do this, so I must do this in the morning." If you're trying to fight with your own body and your own rhythm and how you're feeling, if you're trying to do sales calls and you have low energy and you feel like "I just, I don't want to do this. I feel like I'm either not ready for the day or I'm done for the day." [00:17:24] You're probably doing it at the wrong time. So the tasks that are going to take a lot of brain power. Don't try to force yourself to do them when you have really low energy levels because it will take a lot longer and you're probably going to make a lot of mistakes, whereas otherwise you can just fly through it. [00:17:41] Maybe you know that at least like the back of your hand, it's no problem. But if your energy levels are low or if you're feeling off, then you have to maybe double or triple check some things.  [00:17:51] Jason: You bring up a really good point. These two clients that I'm coaching, we talked about daily planning. [00:17:57] So daily planning is a great way to get more juice from your day and set the intention, but daily planning. I'd like to do the daily planning in the morning because that's when I'm freshest, I have the best ideas. I can think through things. But for some they probably should be doing it in the evening because like they can't go to bed without unloading their brain. [00:18:18] I can just shut down. I just go to sleep. I don't worry about a thing. I can just go to bed. I'm like, it's bedtime. But for a lot of my clients, a lot of other people, maybe you listening, you might not be able to do that. So you might be like, "man, I just keep thinking about all the stuff." And until you get that stuff out of your head and it's on paper where it's safe. [00:18:36] They say the Chinese proverb is the palest ink is stronger than the best memory. When we get it out of our head, it reduces our anxiety and we no longer have to worry that we're going to lose that thing. So I use the notes app on my phone. I put notes all over the place. I just get things out of my head. [00:18:52] So daily planning is a great process to unload everything out of your head. So that you can go to bed and get some good rest. And so for one of the clients, that was what I advised. Do your daily planning in the evenings so that you can go to sleep, get good sleep and wake up in the morning and you already have a plan and you're ready to attack the day. [00:19:10] And then you will know how to leverage your assistant. You'll know how to leverage your team members because you made a plan. And the next step in getting a big to do list is to give it to your team members. So if you have two, three team members, like this client did, then they can give these to their team members, anything that they can so it's not sitting on their plate, eating up headspace and stressing them out, and taking up their day and so then they're able to give up some of that time chunk to somebody else to eat. So cool All right. Anything else we should say about time or this time? Excuse and how to kill these time excuses so that they should be focused on?  [00:19:46] One of the things I ask the clients I'm like, "cool if we create this space if we you are able to give more to your assistants and you free up your time and you've got more time... what are you going to use that time for? How are you going to allocate that? What are you going to do that's going to make the business more money or move you forward or make your life better?" And so I think that's the other thing is we need to have a plan for what are we going to do with our time because we have no incentive to create more space or create more bandwidth or create more time if it's just going to mean we're going to be more miserable, right? So we need to figure out what are we going to use this extra time for? It's just like making money. You need a goal. Like "I'm going to go buy this nice car if I make more money." So it's going to motivate me. You need some sort of motivation. What am I going to do with this extra time? If you enjoy doing sales or growing the business or business development, that might be a really great place to invest that time because then it's going to make you more money and which you can use to buy more freedom. Maybe it's to get a BDM because you don't like doing sales, something like that. [00:20:43] Sarah: So once you free up your time, then you have offloaded a lot of the things you hate, you have some extra time, and now you can decide "what do I actually want to do with that time?" Because if you don't wake up in the morning and go, "what do I want to do with my day today?" Then you may have a time problem. [00:21:00] Jason: All right. So for those of you listening, if you're like, "man, I'm really been in this time trap. Like I've been stuck doing the same default future for the last two or three years. Every January comes around, I'm like, 'I've got big goals.'" And you still are miserable, you're still wearing all the same hats, you haven't really made progress in adding doors. Then it's time to admit you may need some good advice. You may need some extra ideas. You may need some knowledge outside of yourself. And the slowest way to grow your business is to do it all by yourself. It's time to reach out and get some help and we can help you collapse time significantly and that's what it's all about. [00:21:42] That's what coaching is all about is collapsing time, helping you find ways to just shorten the time of learning, the time of making mistakes to learn, the time of figuring things out, like what actually works, what gets results, what helps you outdoors quickly, how do we lower costs? So we want to help you figure that out. [00:22:00] So reach out to us at DoorGrow and go to DoorGrow.com. Until next time, everybody to our mutual growth, bye everyone. [00:22:07] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:22:33] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In today's episode I'm welcoming Melissa Davis to talk about how to get clarity and direction in our business by knowing our values. We delve into the crucial process of translating our values into tangible actions and enabling us to authentically 'walk our talk.' Join us as we explore how this deep reflection on our values not only aligns with our purpose but serves as a guiding force toward genuine business clarity. This episode is a compass for solopreneurs navigating the path of purpose-driven business in the evolving landscape of conscious entrepreneurship. In our conversation, Melissa and I addressed the following topics: How Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and ‘walk our talk' How this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and much more...   Ep 182 Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers, because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zannakroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're Ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like Like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer 1 on 1 support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, General business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years Business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, Wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my 1 on 1 client. You can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, Have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane dot marketing. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the p of Personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7 p's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here, this is your first time, a very big warm welcome. But you may not know what I'm talking about, You can go to download your 1 page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the 7 [00:03:00] Ps of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash guanpage, the number 1 in the word page. And this comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So today, I'm talking to Melissa Davis about the importance of your values. And if you're familiar with my work, you know how much I care about values as well. I wrote about them in the Marketing Like Human book and they are also part of the Marketing Like We're Human program. And it's really by talking with Melissa that I realized How knowing your values really gives you clarity and direction in your business. I always knew they were important and At the Marketing Like We're Human program is this foundational marketing program, but when she mentioned clarity and direction, I'm like, yeah, I'm totally with you. Before I tell you a little bit more about [00:04:00] Melissa, allow me to share a little bit more about The marketing like we're human, AKA the client resonator, my flagship program that I've been running since 2009 19 pre COVID, imagine that. And, uh, it starts again with a live cohort on March fourteenth. So today I was just talking to a potential participant and described the program to him as a program for deep thinkers. I think you heard me say that before on this podcast. I really feel Like a deep thinker myself, and I feel like that's who I do my best work with. And so, yeah, it's a program for deep thinkers who want to create their marketing foundation once and for all. So starting from within, from their why, and aligned with whom they are and aligned with their values. So if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you [00:05:00] are already familiar with the 7 p's of humane marketing. So passion, Personal power, people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership. And that's exactly the framework that the program follows. And besides in-depth videos and workbooks, we also have a weekly call to deepen the content of these topics. Even though I say it's about the marketing foundation, I often have participants who are not really new to business. So, Yes. It's foundational. But oftentimes, in business, we come to the foundation maybe 2 years in, maybe 5 years in, or even 10 years in. And that's because first, we are just wanting to Do the marketing stuff, you know, the the the the how. We are interested in the how. And so a lot of times people come to me after being 2 years, [00:06:00] 5 years, or 10 years, and often that's kind of when they're pivoting In their business and they've been through the motions. They've done what people told them to do in their marketing and just realized, A, it's not working. Or b, it may have been working, but it brought them the wrong clients or it's just not aligned with Them or their bigger why. So, yeah, that that's probably a third, um, uh, participant is Is the 1 that is looking for this bigger why. That has been in business and of course, I'm talking a little bit about myself and that's why I created the program. Um, so, you know, I had a business, a LinkedIn consultancy business for 10 plus years, but I just Felt like there's more than that. There's more than just the business that pays the bills. And so that's really what this, uh, program also does. It Connects you with your why, it connects you with your [00:07:00] life's work, and, uh, creates this foundation that is aligned with who you are and allows you to bring more of you to your marketing. Yeah. So that's what we do. We we go deep and we create the Foundation once and for all so that you can find out which marketing activities will flow for you. It's part Self development, part very pragmatic business best practices, part left, part right brain, mind and heart. And if that's resonating with you, have a look at the program details and watch some of the case studies, uh, as well at, uh, humane dot marketing forward slash program. And then let's get on a call to answer your questions and find out if it's a good Fit for you and where you currently are in your business. Okay. Back to Melissa. So Melissa Davis is on a mission to make sure that every change [00:08:00] maker gets the clarity they need to reach their full potential and deliver their gifts to the world. Through her work with startups, entrepreneurs, and change makers, she's uncovered an Invaluable process for helping them get foundational clarity, love that, on their purpose and Packed so they can go out and into the world and start top taking action. So in our conversation, we addressed the following topics, how Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and actually walk our talk. So going beyond Just that poster in our office that has our values up there. Well, how do we actually bring them into our business, bring them into our marketing? And then also how this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and, uh, of [00:09:00] course, so much more. So Without further ado and blah blah, let's, uh, dive right in. Hey, Melissa. So good to see you. Talk to you again. Really delighted to have you on the humane marketing podcast. Melissa: Oh, I'm really excited to be here. Um, I love your work, Sarah, and I have your book right here. I mean, um, rereading. Yeah. I I, um, I'm thrilled to To kind of sit down and, and, and really just dive into all of this because I think it's so important, um, To me as well. Um, and I just I really love I really love the work you're Sarah: doing. Thank you. And and maybe we can start by sharing how we Connected. I think that's always interesting for, uh, listeners to hear because, you know, there's this rare occasion where I do accept, Uh, a podcast pitch, but it's very rare. Most [00:10:00] often, it's, you know, conversations or, uh, Kind of like serendipity meetings like ours, uh, that then lead me to say, hey. I want you on my podcast. So why why don't you start by sharing that story? I'm trying to remember the story. Melissa: Did I reach I reached out Sarah: to you. Yeah. You reached out to me where, uh, we were connected on the collect, Uh, the, um Oh, yeah. Melissa: That's right. Changing work collective. Changing work Sarah: collective. Yeah. And so you reached out to me there. And then I was, like, Looking at your website and it said, Humanity Inc. I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yes. You know, there's serendipity right there. Yeah. Yeah. And so we Melissa: have Well, that's what I thought when I read your, you know, your bio, and I I think I saw you post, um, may it may have been something about the book. Um, right. And it was just like, I've gotta connect to Sarah. You know, you know you know when when you see it. You know you know when [00:11:00] you see That authenticity, um, show up. Yeah. And and it just it it felt like we needed to connect. Sarah: Yeah. And here we are a few months later. Thank you. Um, so, yeah, let's let's talk about Well, you mentioned authenticity. Uh, we wanna talk about values because that's the work you do. So maybe start us off there. Like, How did you get into this work and why did you call like, I have so many questions. Why do you call Your website, Humanity Inc, and what does that have to do with values? I guess that's my Melissa: first question. Okay. So there's like a little figure 8 of a story here. Um, so I got into values. So values was the initial impetus for me to kind of leave, um, Um, traditional work and go off on my own. Um, so I'd worked with, um, a few I'd [00:12:00] Worked with a few different larger organizations and then, um, a few smaller startup organizations. And, Um, what triggered my exploration of values was actually misalignment to values. And I think that's probably how everybody starts to recognize This distance between them and something else that's happening. Right? So, you know, what I recognized specifically in in The the the 1 startup that I'd been with for 5 years, um, was that we didn't have A singular set of values that drove us all in the same direction. And and so, You know, when I sat where I sat in the office, I was looking at this wall with these, you know, you can buy that big sticker with whatever writing you want on it. And I had the values of the organization. And I sat there every day and I rolled my eyes at this list of values that the organization said They were driven by, [00:13:00] and it was just bullshit. You know, I hope I can swear on your podcast. I'm sorry. Yeah. No. It really wasn't. It was just and and so I started calling them eye roll values. And I don't know if I started doing that at the time, but I definitely did later. Um, you know, and it's kind of like the worst thing that can, you know, erode an organization is having declaring that this is what we're all about, But we don't reflect that at all within our organization. So we kind of tried to dig in and and really understand What was happening in the organization? What were our, you know, um, driving values? What what came what brought us all together To grow in in the direction the organization wanted us to. Um, and so eventually I left That organization, because no 1 was interested in looking at that with me. No 1. You know, I mean, particularly in the leadership, um, There. And so [00:14:00] that was really frustrating. So my first experience with exploring values was incredibly frustrating, but, but it, It just really led me to kind of dig in further. And I, and I really developed this whole structure around it, you know, and, and continue to just Build on how I understood values and the roles that they played. And it was really focused on within organizations. Um, and I landed a a really fantastic job, um, And was incredibly excited about it. It was really aligned to my values. It was aligned to the work that I wanted to be doing with values embedded in my work. Um, and I ended up being laid off 3 months later when the giant client that I was brought in to to support left. And as most layoffs go, they're the best thing that's ever happened to you. You know, I mean, if you've ever been laid off, it's devastating at the time. But if you ask 9 [00:15:00] out of 10 People who ever, you know, got laid off ends up being the best thing that's ever happened to them in their career. And that's true for me as well. So, Um, you know, initially set off to continue my job search, um, and advance my career, and I just couldn't nothing. Nothing sounded good. I had a few offers. I just I couldn't stomach it. I would read these job descriptions, and I was just like, Do this. I don't wanna do any of it. It all makes me nauseous. It all just felt so shallow and so Boring, and I just I just couldn't do it. I really, like I physically was like, Do it, um, which is funny because I was pretty driven before. Um, and and it really struck me at that point that I've been doing all this work of examining organizations. Right? Like, why am I not turning this in on myself so that I could Figure out what this thing is that you [00:16:00] felt this fire, like just restlessness to do something completely different. Um, and it didn't occur to me until then to turn the work I was doing in values around on myself. Right. Uh, and that's really, that's the impetus for me going into business. Now, at the time, that business became values to brand, and it was focused on marketing. Um, I'd had some experience in marketing. Um, I went off and I studied with Donald Miller and I became a guide. Um, I'm no longer, um, a StoryBrand guide, but it was incredibly valuable for me to kind of build, Um, you know, some authority in the marketing space and their, um, their model, um, and Structure around it is just so incredibly simple and and wonderful. Um, and so When was that? So when was this whole? 2017 Teen maybe ish. No. Eights are not my thing. No, mine [00:17:00] neither. You have to be 18. My husband is the master of the debates. Right. You know, like, what what time was Owen born? You know, like, I'm like, I don't know. There's just my brain doesn't work like that. Right. Um, and I've worked in accounting. Um, so yeah. And and and so I continued in that, and And it just over time evolved into really understanding that what I was doing wasn't marketing And what I loved wasn't marketing. I could do it and I became incredibly proficient at it and fantastic at writing and articulating What other people couldn't articulate well, um, and that is that's a real gift of mine. Um, it's But I discovered it really wasn't marketing. And what I really wanted to do was help people get clarity because I started working with organizations, it was very small Organizations, but organizations, um, [00:18:00] in their marketing efforts. And I had a lot of technology background, so it was really easy to kind of like dive in. But they had they actually had no clarity around how they wanted to talk about what they needed to in their marketing. And so I kind of went, I need to be back here further. I need to be earlier in the journey. Mhmm. Um, and Mhmm. Because that's what I that's my gift. I I'm really fantastic at pulling putting dots together, and it all starts with values. Values just they there's So many roles that values play. It's we we often look at values in this very thin kind of, um, lens Of what's important to me. You're right. And values are so, so much more than that. And there's so much tangible evidence in our lives to tell us what our values are and to explore them and to reveal themselves to us. And so it's really accessible and it offers so much information [00:19:00] about our gifts and about our passion and What we really want to be doing with our lives and who to surround ourselves with and how to go at it. And so, um, And I was so passionate about doing work that mattered and solving problems that really advance humanity. Not, You know, not this localized sense of I just wanna make my life better, which is fantastic, and I think that That's a step. Um, but what really was important to me was to work with clients who had a sew that. Right? This idea that This work matters because I wanna help solve this bigger problem in the world. Right. Yeah. And so it eventually changed to Humanity Inc. Sarah: Okay. So the the website then changed to Humanity Inc. Yeah. And And, yeah, really, there was this huge resonance when I when I saw the [00:20:00] website, Humanity Inc, but then also when we had This conversation a few months back when you were sharing about the values, and I'm like, yeah, that's how I'm talking about the worldview And how, you know, in the in the 7 p's of humane marketing, you you start with passion and personal power, Which is exactly what you said. I'm earlier in the journey, and so that's what you're helping your clients with. Um, and and 1 word that really stood out as Well, is the word that you use clarity. And and I have been starting to say foundation. So it Melissa: Like That's what I end up call I call myself a foundational clarity Sarah: coach. Ah, there you go. Yeah. So so it really is that that saying where it's like, well, Yeah. You need clarity, and then you need that clarity to build your foundation. And that's what in a way, that's what you did. You figured out your values, And then you brought those values into your business and into your marketing and called it [00:21:00] humanity, Inc. Because you care about these Melissa: things. And so you want And my clients care about those things. Right? You want to help people. Yeah. Our our niche, our clients value what we value and they believe what we believe. Exactly. And it's within the scope of the values that we are driving and making central to our business. Right? We have, You know, we we have a lot of beliefs and we have, um, a number of values that are very central to us. And, you know, what we do is kind of like, what's the, Um, what's the stake in the ground that I'm putting out there and what are the values that drive that? And our niche, You know, our, our customers and our clients, they share those values and they believe what we believe. And so, you know, it drives me crazy when I see an entrepreneur trying to understand the values of their niche. And I'm like, you have to understand your values. Right. Your values. Absolutely. Start with you. Decide your niche. Yeah. [00:22:00] Mhmm. Yeah. And then you may have to figure Sarah: out the next thing I can do. Out there is so outward focused. Right? Yes. We feel like we're wasting time if we're look looking inside. And so I guess the question then, The logical next step question is, well, knowing my values, how do I turn those values into tangible Actions or, you know, business advice. So Melissa: take us there. Oh, that's the most exciting part. I mean, Our values provide so many clues as to what our outward action needs to look like. Um, you know, and they play different roles. You know, some of our Our highest values are part of the problem that we solve for our niche. [00:23:00] And that's a little bit of a process, but that really that 1 in particular kind of blows people's minds. Right? We're all, I think at our core, 1 of our deepest drives as human beings beyond safety and belonging Is to live in alignment to our values because that leads us to this Fulfillment, right, and to the these higher levels in the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the pathway to doing that is actually living in alignment to our values. At the base of that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, values don't play, um, a role. They don't play as big of a role In, um, in making sure that we're safe, making sure that we're fed, making sure that we have a roof over our house. Right? It's kinda hard to focus on values When we have to take care of our basic needs. Beyond that, as we, you know, as we move through belonging and then and then further up, our drive [00:24:00] Is to feel passionate and to feel fulfilled and happy and surround ourselves with people that are like us. And so, um, there's good sides to that, and there's not so good sides to that. Right? You know, our values kind of shift and evolve A little bit over time, they they reprioritize, um, but there is this massive drive to do that. And so what happens throughout our journey, wherever we are, whatever we're doing and whatever we desire, there's often a value of ours that we struggle to live. Right? So our values, um, we can have really strong values for something and not do a very good job of living it. Um, if if a value is not lived, we feel this Dissonance, this cognitive dissonance. And it it can actually make us feel sick. So we know it when it happens. We we don't feel good about ourselves. We don't feel good about our lives. We don't Feel right? We feel unfulfilled. Um, [00:25:00] and so what we do is we seek to close that gap, Right? In a lot of different ways. Some are healthy and some are not healthy. Um, but we reach urgency See, when we realize I've gotta do something that allows me to live this value, um, at a much higher level. And so ultimately, every problem that any entrepreneur solves is tied to helping our Clients and customers close the gap on a value that they're not living very well. Mhmm. And we may directly do it or we may indirectly do it, but we've got to And how we connect to living their values. And so that is 1 of the most direct ways that our values play into how we show up as entrepreneur, but they also determine our differentiation. I wanna work with, You know, I can work with any marketing expert. What differentiates you, Sarah, [00:26:00] you know, and your teaching Is your values. Right? Um, and it's 1 element of it, but it's probably the most important element of differentiation is I wanna work with somebody who shares my values. Right? It's important to me to get visible. I'm talking about myself right now. It's important for me to get visible. I have something really important that I want and need the world to know, and I have something to offer that I think is really important because We need more change makers to get out there and do the work of solving the big problems so that we can advance humanity. Right? Exactly. Okay. That value that I'm closing there for myself and for my clients is accountability. It's this sense of I must, I I know I have a higher potential and I've got to live it. I have this accountability to it. Um, if I sit here and I don't get visible and I don't do it Right. I'm not living my value of accountability. I'm sitting on my [00:27:00] butt and I'm wasting away and I'm not doing the thing. Um, and what I'm drawn to with you is is your value of Living in in your conscience, living in showing up in a humane way And living in compassion. And so that is How you do the work that you do. And it's important to me to align with somebody that does that because I don't wanna go out and spam The world with anything. Right? I can't this this interview is incredibly timely because I just really, like, hit my limit on the number of Invitations that I get on LinkedIn that are immediately followed by a pitch. I saw your Sarah: post. Yeah. Melissa: I'm like, And not doing it anymore. Um, and I've said that before and I still do it because I'm like, what if they're [00:28:00] like the most wonderful connection that I ever, you know, Um, I'm probably an eternal optimist, and I really I really don't like to shut people down and live in that energy. Um, but then it happens, and I'm deeply disappointed. And I'm like, why were you disappointed in this, Melissa? Well, it's that value. Right? Yeah. Um, so we work with people, right? There are operating values that we have, and there are differentiation. You know, they're how we show up To do the work that we do. And we must really embrace those values because that's what other people are are very much attracted to. We have very little competition in the world. Right? Mhmm. Very little competition in the world because Yeah. The way that you do it, the uniqueness Of how you do it is incredibly different from everyone around you. Yeah. There are plenty of people, right, That are drawn to it, but you have to get visible. I know we were talking about that before. So you still need to get out there. [00:29:00] Um, but then Yeah. But that's the targeted Sarah: action that we were saying. Well, how do you turn this these values that are internal Into something external. Um, well, you just said it. Right? It's like, okay, I wanna be visible, but I don't wanna just be visible in any kind of spammy way. Right? Yeah. You would never do that and just start spamming everybody, um, um, LinkedIn with with your pitches. So So it's like the value gets transformed or transmitted to the action that you're taking. And And for you, it's values. For me, it's worldview or the humane approach to whatever you do. And It's so true. And another thing that came up when you mentioned the Maslow's pyramid, I'm like, yeah. That's that's really good because my I call my people and I know you are a deep thinker as well. Right? That's kind of for me, that's a flag. It's like, this person is a deep Thinker, just like me. And they don't, you [00:30:00] know, they they they look at things. Yeah. They just think Deeply about things and they care. Uh, you know, humane marketing is for the generation of marketers that care. It's this deep deep Care and thinking about things. Um, and you're right. That doesn't happen at the bottom of the pyramid. Right? It's like you Have evolved, uh, or Yeah. Well, you can't Melissa: the privilege as well. You have the privilege. Exactly right. And have the privilege to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's too it's too much. Um, it had it happens. There are some people who can who can do that And who are struggling to to make it, um, for whatever reason, um, through the hierarchy of needs, it happens. But it's very it's it's too much to ask for someone who is who is struggling to Strictly aligned to their values, [00:31:00] um, and to focus on that and and to be able to do that. And it's it's, uh, yeah. Sarah: Yeah. And we need to, you know, understand that and show empathy because we're not in the same situation. Melissa: So Exactly. Right. And have someone that they can work with. Right. Or something that we can offer. Right. That, um, is more accessible. Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. This whole conversation also made me think of, uh, another conversation I had on the podcast about activism, Like business, uh, as activism. Right? And in a way, we're we're almost talking about that here because Especially because we care, you say, you know, humanity. You mentioned the current, uh, challenges. So in a way, it's almost like it's Borderline activism because we are truly just saying, no, we're not just doing it for the profit. We're really wanting it to do also [00:32:00] to move humanity or, you know, solve the problems we were facing right now. Melissa: Yeah. And it is like, I, you know, I, I use word, put a stake in the ground, you know, what do you stand for? Uh, and I think that Oftentimes that gets confused with, I have to have an opinion about everything, or I have to show my solidarity With what's happening in the world or I have to make a statement, and that's not what it means. What it means is I understand the lane That I'm passionate about. Mhmm. I understand where my stake in the ground Is and where people are looking to me for my thoughts and opinions and solidarity and strength. Mhmm. And, Um, I've I I and I do struggle with this even. You know, um, you know, when you when you look at what's happening in the world and people around you look for A [00:33:00] statement. Right. Something big happens. And I think we all have to kind of look internally and say, what What is my lane? Is this something that the world is looking to me for my thoughts Um, there that's a big difference between reaching out to the people in your lives who And having conversations. Yeah. And having conversations. That's not what I'm talking about. Right. Yeah. Um, but I think it's very challenging. I think the world is is, And social media specifically conflates this sense of having a stake in the ground with Showing up to every big thing that happens and demanding that you put a stake in the ground in a space that's not yours. And But it's such a good point. Yeah. Quite a big challenge to me. And I, um, have to remind myself all the [00:34:00] time that That's not my I didn't put a stake in the ground on that fight. If I had, then it is demanded that I that I Have something to say, I suppose. Yeah. Um, you know Sarah: what I use for this? I use the 17 sustainable development goals for this with my clients, And I have you know, this is the UN who basically looked at all the current challenges that we have and said, okay. Here are 17 that are currently really pressing. Um, and so I have my clients look at that and say, look. All of these problems right now are super important. Uh, all of them, all 17, but you can't focus your energy on all 17. So Choose 1 or Melissa: 2 maximum. I would argue. Sarah: I would argue. 1. Yeah. 1 is this number 17 is partnership. And so I feel like that applies to, like, almost everything because we need partnership and [00:35:00] community in Melissa: every That's a how though. It Sarah: yeah. It's it's almost like it's kind of a side. Right? Because the other ones are are, you know, Water, ocean, um, climate, like electricity Melissa: and all of that. So so yeah. It's almost like unity. You know? Exactly. So Sarah: that's why I say Pick 2, but make sure a partnership is 1 of them. Right. But but then yeah. Exactly what you say. Then it's like, well, if, You know, that there's something going on that has to do with that topic, then, yes. You know, people expect you to maybe make a statement. Um, but if it's not, then then it's not it's not your role to to to pitch in. So I I really like how you said it. Is it my lane? Is this expect because I use the word worldview, And there as well, it could be like, oh, I have to always express my worldview about this and this and this. Yeah. Like, no. I I [00:36:00] actually don't feel good about Because then we have the polarity, you know, with all these wars that are going on right now. And so it's like, well, no. I don't need to say, you know, if I'm I'm not usually, I'm not on any side, but I yeah. It's not part of My role, even I guess, as an activist, it wouldn't be part of of my role in this case. Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and There are times when I think that we do need to make a stand. There are definitely, you know, Points where it's incredibly relevant to our work to do it. Um, and and then we should. You know, it's just deciding, Is this because we feel the pressure to, you know, is this something that's relevant Yeah. To be in my work? Um, not just everyone's making a statement, and therefore I need to. Mhmm. So [00:37:00] Because, of course, we have opinions and we have thoughts and we have, you know, I mean, um, and explorations and confusion and, you know, and And questions and it but it doesn't mean that that and and I'm talking about a brand. I'm talking about, You know, us as humans behind a brand and a business and this stake in the ground that we've put around, what do we stand for? And this is why I'm doing the work that I'm doing. Right? That's what I'm talking about. And it's it is. It's incredibly challenging. However, understanding what you Stand for understanding your values, understanding, as you said, the roles that I play. What is my role in my work? And then how do I show up through that role to make a statement, um, or to Further my stake in the ground or to explain or whatever, that's incredibly helpful to take action. Mhmm. Because actions are how we live our values. Right? What are the roles that, Um, [00:38:00] that embody me and who I am that allow me to live my values. So, um, they're, they're incredibly helpful for understanding when it's right, you know, and how to, um, Take action on anything, not just, you know, not just activism, but but on anything. How do I show up on social media? How do I show up? It's walking the talk. Yeah. How do I show up? Right? Those are the roles. Mhmm. Sarah: I wanna talk a little bit about The idea of changing values. So not us necessarily, um, but more like Humanity at large. Right? I feel like we're going through a huge shift of changing values. Um, right now, Uh, maybe we're still in the middle of the storm, but we're definitely getting towards something, um, Kind of more conscious and, you know, at [00:39:00] least the the probably the the people that we hang out with, Uh, have very different values from maybe, uh, our grandparents had. So how have you looked at this also kind of in from a larger Effective, you know, how do generations how do their values change? Melissa: Yeah. It's really interesting to look at, And it's not something that I've spent a lot of time focusing on, you know, the the the evolution of values because Cultures have these kind of underlying, you know, values that drive them. Um, communities have values that drive them. Generations have values is that drive them. Um, and so there are all these different flavors of these group values. Right. And, you know, and then we have our individual values. And values come from a lot of different places and named a couple, but Religion, our family, you know, our culture, right? There are all these kind of [00:40:00] outside forces that impose values on us. Right. And then we have these innate values, these things that we're, like, born with or that develop from experiences that we have in our lives. And for whatever reason, they're all there, for right or for wrong. And, you know, values, We often put this kind of positive slant on values, and there's this incredibly powerful driver that values can have on us. But there's also dark side of values, Right? Values are how we show up in our bias. Values are how we show up in our judgment. And so they Aren't always positive drivers in our lives. So it's really interesting to look at, you know, how they influence How we move around in the world and how we see things in front of us. Um, and so It's fascinating to look at. It is fascinating to look at how things shift and change because those cultural values, those [00:41:00] religious values, right? I think what's happening is that we're questioning more Than we were before. Right. So I think all of that's still happening. Right? There's always an evolution of cultural values. There's always an evolution of Religious values and of course through generations, those values that get passed on change too because our parents have different experiences in the world and they want to Still different things in us. And so there's just an evolution that happens. But I think what's happening now is that we're questioning it more. I think we're going, is that mine? Is it really my responsibility to carry on this value? Is it it's not mine. It's my parents. It's it's it's this religion that I don't wanna have anything to do with anymore. It's this Culture in America that's toxic. Right? It's not mine. I think we're just [00:42:00] I think we're more introspective. Well, general You and I Sarah: also everybody. About change makers. Right? And so just this word change maker, well, obviously, We want change. And so, clearly, our values can be the same as the values that, Uh, our parents or grandparents had. Yep. So we are looking for something that is different than we have today. And so, necessarily, our values need to be not according to, you know, what has worked in the past 50 years. So I I feel like, yeah, that's fascinating too. And I'm sure you kinda see a pattern with your clients as well that often the values are, Melissa: you know, similar. So Of course, they are because my clients value what I value and they believe what I believe. Now that doesn't mean they're exactly the same by any stretch. And that's the beautiful thing. I think I would be bored out of my skull if [00:43:00] every client I worked with wanted to do what I did and had the exact same values and the same experiences. That's not even close to true. Right. Their experiences with their values are so incredibly different. They show up in so many different ways, and they drive them in different ways. And the combination we have these like, oh, I get so excited talking about this. There's this magical combination of these values that we have that come together That, like, create they they they make a shape out of this fire that we have. And it's So cool to see that come together. I often could see it coming together before they do. And so they're like, I don't know why you're so excited about this. But, you know, you can you can really see it. You can see the essence of Sarah when I see that magical combination and Why this stake in the ground is so important to you and how these gifts that you have come together in this way that allow you to go out and do that. [00:44:00] And, um, yeah, I think we're, we're just, um, we're getting to the point where We're invested in in understanding ourselves at a really deep level, and I think that's expanding. I think people Know that it's possible. You know, we we kinda have this when we talk about conscious or, you know, inhumane marketing and, Um, being more compassionate about the world and open minded. And when we look at social media, we're like, ugh. Right? However, social media and the Internet have also done amazing things for open mindedness and for Exposing us to ideas and thoughts and solutions and pathways that we never would have been exposed to. And so I think that is also contributing to this idea of it's possible for me to move from this [00:45:00] state of being to another State of being or from this state of action to another state of action and to experience this transformation and this capability that I have To go out and do something big. Mhmm. And so for some people, what would just be this little, like, forever frustration Of knowing they have potential that, you know, that just dies with them at the end of their lives. They're realizing that there are pathways to take action on it And do something about it. And to me, that's the the most tragic is to have that and to know that you have this fire, to know that you have this Big potential and to never have taken action on it. Sarah: Yeah. What you described before is basically the definition of a change maker. Right? It's like, okay, I I know I I can contribute to this change. And and, um, I was having another conversation about pivots. I [00:46:00] was part of some summit about pivots, and I feel like there's Such an awakening of, uh, pivots now because people are kinda like you a few years ago. Right? You're in this corporate job, And you just like, I know we can do something much bigger than Melissa: what we're doing. I didn't even know what it looked like. It Sarah: was just Yeah. It's just like this Inner knowing, and it's like, well, I need to get out of this prison, and I just need to create it myself. And I feel like there's a lot of and a lot of people in this Melissa: Situation. And to be clear, I had to take a part time job to do that. Of course. No. That's the other thing. It's like you can't just jump ship and then Well, you can. But I I wanna, like, you know, I hate when, you know, it seems to somebody from the outside that, you know, you just make this jump. I just decided, and now I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm making a million no. That's not what happened. Right? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, [00:47:00] um, there is Nothing wrong with taking the step and saying, okay, what do I need to do to allow myself to take this The step towards what I know is bigger. And I'm like, you know Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I feel like we're at a very Promising crossroad, um, of of change. So I'm just super grateful that you're helping all these change makers find clarity because That is the 1 thing that can waste you a lot of time if you don't have clarity. Right? Melissa: Um, and I'm so grateful that you're helping them Figure out how to get out into the world with the message that they, that they have and need to deliver and to grow. Because if we can't grow, we can't impact. Yeah. Period. That's the thing. I mean, that's that's it. Right? Right. Sarah: You know? I feel like that's a a beautiful place to to close. This was wonderful. Thanks so much for [00:48:00] being here. 2 things. Um, please do share where people can find out more about humanity and your work on clarity and values. So share that. And then I have another last Melissa: question. Okay. Um, so you can find me on my website, Um, humanityinc dot world. Um, and you can find me on LinkedIn, um, at melissa highsley hyphen davis. And if you have show notes, so we can put it there so that you don't have to try to spell that. Um, those are the 2 primary places that I hang out. Sarah: Yeah. And my my last question that I always ask is, what are you grateful for today or this week? This year, I can say because we're at the beginning of the Melissa: year. Um, well, I'm grateful that you invited me on this podcast and I was really excited to be here because I I really do love your work so much. Um, and let's say this year, [00:49:00] um, I'm grateful for Realizing that I needed to bring other people into my work. Mhmm. And for that shift of I need to create this myself to I need to collaboration has always been really important to me, but but there's this I mean, you know, you're a creator too. And I don't know. There is it's tough. It's tough when you're creating To shift from creating to sharing. And and so it's, um, I'm grateful for that shift. I'm very grateful for that shift, and I'm grateful that I'm getting more comfortable being a lot more visible. And so I'm really excited, um, about everything. Yay. Sarah: Thank you for moments. Right? It's kinda like Exactly. Melissa: That's what I [00:50:00] live for. And it's really fun when they're your own too. Sarah: Yeah. It's amazing. Thanks so much for being here and, uh, to be continued, of course. To be continued. Thank you. As always, I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Hopefully, uh, that makes you think deeper about your values and how they impact your work. In order to find out more about Melissa and Her work, go over to humanity inc dot world, and you can also get her foundational clarity canvas at humanity inc dot dot com forward slash foundational dash clarity dash canvas. And if you are looking for others who think like you, why not join us in the humane marketing circle? You can find out more about The circle at humane dot marketing forward slash circle, and you find the show notes of this episode at [00:51:00] humane dot marketing forward slash h m 1 8 2. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the humane business Festo and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my 2 books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being a part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

One of the biggest questions we get from property management business owners once they start building out their team is “How do I compensate and recognize my team members?” In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss the different kinds of compensation structures for different personality types and roles on your team. You'll Learn [02:15] The difference between you and your team [07:56] The problem with giving out percentages [12:13] How to set up commission structures [21:23] Recognizing your team effectively [25:44] Giving out raises and job titles Tweetables “Business is a more effective vehicle than even a charity at creating lasting and impactful change.” “When you dangle the carrot in front of a great salesperson, they will jump off a freaking cliff to get it.” “Your discomfort in giving somebody a raise should be equal to their discomfort in asking for it.” “Recognition costs nothing.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: They need to be invested in like committed to helping you grow this business and helping you move it forward, otherwise they are just dead weight and you're creating a bigger and bigger monster of dead weight as the business grows.  [00:00:14] Welcome DoorGrowers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrower. [00:00:31] DoorGrower property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management, business owners. And their businesses, we want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We are your hosts, property management, growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull, owners of DoorGrow. [00:01:11] That good? Now let's get into the show. All right. We were trying to change the intro right before we did it. And sometimes she's not on it. Sometimes she is. She's mostly on it now. So. Anyway, here we are. So our topic today, I'm getting a lot of questions, a lot of questions, and this has been going on for a long time, but we're getting a lot of questions about compensation. [00:01:37] This just keeps coming up and we see a lot of mistakes when it comes to compensation. So the challenge with compensation is that entrepreneurs think differently than most people that they are paying, and so they make mistakes in how they compensate people because they think it's going to help them get more of what they want and they actually create the opposite. [00:02:00] And so I want you to pay close attention to this today. If you watch this you should not ever ask if you should be giving out a commission or percent sign to somebody or whatever So let's talk about a couple of things here. So where should we start?  [00:02:15] Sarah: Well, I think the best place to start is probably from just for background. [00:02:20] What is the difference between someone who has a sales mindset or entrepreneurial mindset versus someone that may not.  [00:02:30] Jason: Cool. Let's talk about that. The two types of team members that you're going to have. There's two types of people on the planet, those that like money and those that don't. And I know you're thinking, "man, no, everybody likes money." [00:02:42] And you'd be surprised. And so if you had all of your team members take a DISC assessment, there's usually on a nice DISC assessment, a section called the values index. And one of those values is the economic or financial score. And so on the economic or financial score, what you will see is that the score is low, then they don't like money. [00:03:04] And I know that sounds weird. They're not focused on money. They're not trying to get money. Money is not a big part of their psyche. It's just not. And I know entrepreneurs, you don't get this because you like money. Sarah and I do not hate money. We don't hate money. Okay,  [00:03:20] Sarah: I need that shirt. This is the one t shirt. [00:03:22] I'll wear the capitalistic pig shirt  [00:03:24] Jason: Right and so we don't hate money. You probably don't hate money either. If you do hate money and you're an entrepreneur Then you are probably struggling to have money, right. Money is the ability to change lives, make a difference and have impact. This is why business is a more effective vehicle than even a charity at creating lasting and impactful change in my opinion. [00:03:47] Okay? Because it has healthy motivators connected to it. Right. And money is the energy and currency of what everything moves through to happen. Right. So let's talk about this. So if the economic score is low, what does that mean? I'll tell you whose economic score is high. If your economic score is high, you are probably an entrepreneur or a sales person, right? [00:04:11] Those are probably the only two personality types or people that you should be paying out more money or bonuses or commissions to incentivize better behavior. That means most people, you should not be paying bonuses, additional financial compensation to try and motivate or change behavior. Now, if you just want to be generous and it's Christmas, that's different. [00:04:36] But if you're trying to consistently compensate somebody and motivate them, the motivators need to be connected to what your outcomes are and most people are doing it incorrectly. Now, if the economic score is low, this is what this means, they would rather what they most value is recognition. They would rather be recognized. [00:04:55] And recognition costs nothing. It costs nothing. And if you don't give them recognition, but you give them bonuses, it's often the opposite, it has the opposite effect. There's another values index called the charitable score. If they have a high charitable score, which means they might want to volunteer to soup kitchen. [00:05:14] They want to like donate money. They want to give money away, not get money. They want to give money away. And then they have a low end economic score. That means if you pay them more money than what is comfortable for them. You pay them more than that. They will start to become a worse team member. They will start to self sabotage because they feel guilty. And then they're going to project that and externalize it because they have to justify it. They're taking more money. They don't want to give up the more money, but they feel guilty. If Sarah was my boss, it'd be like, "Oh, Sarah's giving me more money. Well, all right. I have to be worth this. So I'm worth this more money. And you know what? I'm entitled now. And maybe I deserve even more because I'm developing this kind of cancerous blind spot of I deserve this money because I feel guilty. So I externalize it. And I blame that uncomfortable feeling on my boss. Oh, well, my boss is like terrible and doesn't do this stuff. So I deserve that more money to compensate for it." And so they start to find fault with the boss and they start to justify them taking this more money cause they feel bad so that they can feel somewhat okay about it. And then their behavior starts to show that and they start to perform worse. [00:06:23] I know entrepreneurs, you're like, "that makes no sense." But that's how a lot of people think. Most people do not enjoy seeking money. This is not their goal.  [00:06:33] Sarah: There is a caveat team members, they have to have enough to be comfortable, right?  [00:06:38] Jason: If they're starving, broke or hurting, they're not comfortable.  [00:06:42] Sarah: In pain or like worried, like, "Oh my God, I might lose my house or I can't feed my kids." [00:06:47] Like. Yeah. We're not saying, Hey, like give them no money, they'll work for free. That's not the case at all. Right. They have to have enough to feel comfortable to make sure that their needs are met and make sure that they're able to provide for themselves and anyone else or anything else that is important to them. [00:07:02] Once they reach that level though, and I think studies have been done on this, which is really interesting to me I don't know if they just surveyed Americans. Don't know, but I think $75k was like that magic number or $65k. It was something like that somewhere in that ballpark is that's like where people feel like they have most people feel like they have enough. [00:07:25] So once they feel like they have enough money to live and be okay and make sure their needs are met and bills are paid and things are taken care of and like Johnny can do soccer and whatever they, you know, they want to do, they don't then go, "well, now I want a hundred and now I want 200." They don't keep trying to climb that ladder. [00:07:46] Once they feel comfortable and they have to make sure that their needs are met, then they're not interested. So if you take it from 75 to a hundred, they're like, "it's okay."  [00:07:55] Jason: Okay. So the other piece to this, another challenge that I see is that because business owners want people to have skin in the game and they want them to, they think everybody wants money, they hand out percent signs. [00:08:08] This is one of the most dangerous things to hand out. We even made a silly video called, what's it called?  [00:08:13] Sarah: I think it's called Percentage Breaks the Property Manager for the Property Management Business.  [00:08:19] Jason: Yeah. So you can check that out on YouTube. But the idea we're playing this, these roles and I'm a business owner and I don't have money in the beginning, so I'm going to pay her a percentage of all the doors that I get in. [00:08:29] We made it ridiculous, like 50%. Right? Which means if you're handing out a percent sign, and we see this all the time, say Sarah's my employee and I'm the boss, and I hand out 50% or whatever to a property manager.  [00:08:42] Sarah: Or even if you're like, "okay, here have 30," because like even 10, 30, 40, I still, I see the that a lot. [00:08:48] Sometimes I see 20.  [00:08:50] Jason: It doesn't matter what the percentage is, right? The challenge is in a business, some property management companies don't even make 10 percent profit margin. And so handing out percent signs is really dangerous for businesses. So what they'll do is hand out a percent sign. So let's say I give her 50%. [00:09:06] That means my 50%. My, the other half, all of the expenses have to come out of that. And usually if a business has 50 percent profit margin, that's pure expense. So then I'm broke. So what happens is she's making more and more money because she has all upside. It's pure profit. And I have all the expenses do not give a percentage to a broker. [00:09:28] Pay them a flat fee of like five, 600 bucks. Do not pay a percentage of broker. If you don't have your broker's license, don't create relationships or situations where you are giving up a percentage to a property manager. "Hey, you get like 50 percent of each door that you get on when you get a 30 percent of each door," whatever, right? [00:09:46] Because then what happens is these property managers, if they're the personality type of handling property management, instead of doing sales, they are not going to be focused on getting more business on. They're going to be focused on just helping run the business and you're giving them more and more money the more doors you get, which means you're making less and less money, right? They're making more and more money, the more doors that you get. And they will get more and more lazy and more and more comfortable because there's no incentive for them to go work harder or hunt or chase to get money. You need to make sure if you're handing out a percent sign in any capacity, that's like giving out ownership of the business and they need to be invested in like committed to helping you grow this business and helping you move it forward, otherwise they are just dead weight and you're creating a bigger and bigger monster of dead weight as the business grows. This is why a lot of people join a franchise and then regret it later on because they're paying out six to eight percent, which is a lot, of their gross revenue not of profit not of what's left over for you. And some business owners. [00:10:56] That's their whole owner payout. Yeah, that's like top one. Some business owners, that's what they take out like you're giving away that to basically to a team member that's not really adding value. I could go on and on about franchises. You can check out my YouTube video about franchises. [00:11:12] I'm obviously like not a fan of the franchise model because I believe it hurts the entire industry. There he said it. All right. So don't hand out percent signs. Do not get into a relationship with a business partner and give them a percent sign unless they are the type that wants to hustle and grow and make money. [00:11:33] The challenge is I see a lot of business partnerships are like, "here's a percent sign" when they should have just said, "here's your salary. You can be the operator." So operator personality types, for example, systems, process, whatever, they don't usually want ownership. They're not often that entrepreneurial type. [00:11:51] They just want to make sure they're getting paid enough and taking care of enough. Now there's exceptions to this, right? But you don't want to be handing out percent signs to somebody unless it's like super critical for growth. And I do not recommend. I recommend in any way possible, don't hand out any percent signs to anybody ever except to yourself and maybe a salesperson. [00:12:13] Now, let's talk about commissions, right? Let's say somebody is money motivated and they can help you make more money. So if they're money motivated, then you need to be using them to help you make more money. If you're going to pay them a percent sign, but you're not going to pay them a percent sign residually. [00:12:30] Because then you're motivating them to not do more work. What you want from a good salesperson or a BDM, a business development manager, or a BD business development person. What you want from them is what? You want results, which is more doors. You want them to add more money to the business. That's the result you want. [00:12:49] So you're going to pay for them to get more business, not keeping the business because keeping the business is the rest of the team. And that's fulfillment. So don't pay them a percentage residual. You pay them a percentage of maybe the first month or the, like some sort of commission upfront. [00:13:07] And it could be a percent, or it could just be a flat fee. Like, "Hey, we'll give you 200 bucks or 300 bucks or 500 bucks or per unit that you bring on." and give them an incentive. So that means they have an incentive every month. They stay to hunt and to chase. Now, another mistake people make with salespeople is like, "I want to get a salesperson, but I want to have zero downside and I want all the upsides. [00:13:33] So they create another unfair structure where they're like, I will pay you pure commission. And if you don't hunt and kill, you starve. And if you hunt and kill, I make money and we both make money." so I need to address this. That only makes sense if you are giving the salesperson, all of the leads, they have a great follow up and nurture system, and all they do is show up to calls and close.  [00:13:56] Sarah: Now, can you clarify what giving them the leads means? Because you're like, "Oh here's the leads. Like, here's a list of 10, 000 people."  [00:14:04] Jason: Okay. That's not what I mean.  [00:14:05] Sarah: So yeah, exactly. So let's clarify that.  [00:14:09] Jason: Okay.  [00:14:09] Sarah: So 18, 000 people in my CRM. Here's your leads. [00:14:13] Jason: If somebody is going to be paid pure commission, which means they're just paid for basically closing deals, they should not have to go find potential clients. They should not have to be hunting for potential clients. They shouldn't be spending any time doing any of that stuff. They should just be taking appointments, somebody else scheduled for them and closing deals. [00:14:33] Then they're a closer. Everything that happens before that would be handled by a setter and the setter would be cold calling, following up, like all this stuff. Setting appointments. Setting appointments, rescheduling.  [00:14:46] Sarah: Making sure people show up. They don't show up. Right. Calling them again.  [00:14:49] Jason: Feeding the closer. [00:14:51] Feeding the closer. Then the closer can be peer commissioned and the setter would be paid a base, mostly a base, plus a small percentage for each like appointment they set or some sort of results. So they're motivated to get more results and they should be a little bit money motivated, right? Now, most people are going to hire a BDM and expect them to do both. [00:15:11] And if you're going to hire a BDM and expect them to do both, you need to pay them a base. I would recommend at least maybe 20 to 30 K, something like this of a base that covers their setting activities. And then they, the rest, they should be able to make somewhere annually about maybe six figures should be possible. [00:15:30] So work it backwards, but there should be a commission structure that if they're adding 10 to 20 doors a month, they should be able to make. Some sort of six figure sort of salary would be the goal. So figure out a commission on top of that base. Because what you're doing, if you say it's pure commission, you're expecting a closer who lives or dies by whether they hunt or kill and create some money, you're expecting them to starve for at least two months, usually. Because usually three. Because it takes about 90 days to build up a sales pipeline. So they're going to have to do networking and prospecting and outreach and they're working for free and. If they're starving for 90 days, they're just going to quit. [00:16:10] I've seen so many BDMs burn out and it sounds like this great model. "Well, I'll pay you basically nothing in the beginning." And you might get somebody to agree to do that, but they might be stupid if they're willing to do that. And then they're going to be like starving and not figuring it out. And then you don't give them a good system. [00:16:26] If you plug them in to DoorGrow, we can get them making a lot of money. We have an amazing system. Like we had a client in just 10 to 15 hours. We go from zero to a hundred doors in six months. And he didn't spend any money on ads and he was a solopreneur. He was all by himself. This is absolutely possible. [00:16:44] We can help BDMs crush it. We've helped some BDMs add two- three hundred dollars in a year. That's absolutely possible to do but they need to be able to dedicate their time to that and you are not going to get that kind of result if you just pay them a commission because they will only focus on the closing type of activities or the commission generating activities, and they won't do what the leading activities that actually generates the opportunities to close. [00:17:12] And so you're putting too much attention on the wrong thing. They need more attention. Most of the attention should be on the leading activities. Phone calls, outreach, networking that leads to this and then deals will happen. They don't even have to be super amazing at closing if they're doing enough leading activities And so we want to make sure we give them a base and then we give them an incentive to move those things forward.  [00:17:35] Sarah: Okay. Now with the base, this is the big one. "Well, how much is the base supposed to be Jason? I don't know?" [00:17:41] Jason: 20 or 30 K. Maybe  [00:17:42] Sarah: You need to find an amount that would be uncomfortable if that's all you made. It needs to be comfortable enough that if that's all they made, they're not going to be starving and eating out of a dumpster. [00:17:58] And it needs to be uncomfortable enough that if that's all they made, they wouldn't be happy and they would be hungry for more.  [00:18:06] Jason: They need to be hungry. They got to be motivated. It's financial compensation is all about motivation, right?  [00:18:13] Sarah: With a salesperson, when you lay out their commission structure and you let them know like, "Hey, this is your base and I'm giving you this base because of these reasons. I don't want you to be starving. I want you to be motivated. The real money, it's over here. This other piece, I'm going to give it to you because there's things like phone calls and settings and appointments and you know, all the stupid crap that you don't want to do, but that you will do because it leads to deals." [00:18:38] And they're like "yeah, I get that. But the real money is over here. So when you close deals, that's when you start to make money." And when you dangle the carrot in front of a great salesperson, they will jump off a freaking cliff to get it. The problem is if you just give them the carrot and you're like, here, have a 50, 000 base, have 100, 000 base, have a 200, 000 base. [00:19:03] They're like "Yeah. I don't need to work that hard. I mean, if I do nothing, I still make 50k." We just at the boardroom event, we had a client whose BDM has a 50, 000 base.  [00:19:13] Jason: And then he was wondering why they weren't super motivated.  [00:19:16] Sarah: She doesn't really, she closed like two doors a month. And I'm like, well, yeah, cause she's comfortable. [00:19:22] She's super comfortable there. So she's never going to be motivated to work harder and do more and stretch herself and go above and beyond. Because she doesn't have to, you gave it to her. I have to work for it. There's a difference. And the other thing is salespeople who they love the challenge. They don't want you to give it to them. [00:19:43] They don't want it. Like they'll tell you like, "Oh, I'll take 500, 000 a year for doing nothing." But they wouldn't really be fulfilled by that. They'll probably take it because they love money. I mean, who doesn't, but they wouldn't be fulfilled by it. Yeah. If you give them 500, 000 for doing nothing versus if they make 500, 000 because of the work that they did and because of their efforts, there's a big difference. [00:20:06] They're going to feel really proud of that and they're going to want that. So they're going to chase it. So you have to dangle the carrot and make it something that's interesting enough. You have to, you, and you have to set it up so that they have the ability to make at least six figures because that's what sales people want But don't just throw it to them.  [00:20:24] Jason: And to be clear No, bdm should be making five hundred thousand dollars.  [00:20:28] Sarah: That's not accurate at all. [00:20:30] Jason: There's really great bdm. Maybe if they're helping do some acquisition deals If they're adding 500 a year, maybe all right So but if your bdm can live comfortably without adding 10 doors a month, your commission structure is wrong. They should be minimum adding about 10 doors a month as a full time BDM minimum. [00:20:52] And they should need to do 10 doors a month in order to just reach comfort. And if they're really motivated, they'll do even more than that. They'll do even more than that because then it gets exciting, right? Then it's the game, right? It's the hunt. Okay. So we talked about compensation. [00:21:08] Is there any other challenges or mistakes we see people make compensation wise?  [00:21:13] Sarah: I think those are the big ones. I think let's though, before we wrap up, let's talk a little bit more about the recognition piece and then we'll close it out. Okay. Because people are like what do you mean recognition? [00:21:25] Like, "Hey, I see you." [00:21:26] Jason: So recognition is a process of just helping the team members be seen, especially in front of other team members for doing good things or accomplishing things. So the way that we do that in DoorGrow and in our operating system, DoorGrow OS. Maybe you've heard of like EOS or traction or some of these things. [00:21:43] DoorGrow OS is better. And what we do in DoorGrow OS to increase the amount of recognition is in every meeting we share wins. So if it's our weekly commitments meeting, we're sharing what wins did we have last week and everybody adds to the list. What did we do in our monthly goal setting? [00:22:03] We share wins for everything we did the previous month. Same thing with the quarter and annually, and it's pretty awesome. Like, we're building these lists and everybody feels great. And then even in our daily huddle meeting, which is like a 15 minute, 20 minute meeting we do every morning, I guess we do ours in the afternoon, but we do with our team. [00:22:21] We do Caught Being Awesome and we allow team members to share their wins or to highlight somebody else. And so our team are highly motivated because most of them are recognition motivated. So we're recognizing them. If we do give a bonus, like say for the holidays or something like that, we do it in a way that the focus is we wanted to recognize you because of what you've done for us this last year. So it's still about recognition and appreciation. And so that will get you team members that are incredibly loyal to you, that love being part of the team, that feel a sense of belonging, and that means a lot more to most of your team members than getting more dollars. [00:23:04] Is that good?  [00:23:04] Sarah: They want to feel important and they want to feel valued and they want to know that you care about what they're doing and especially in an industry like property management because it's tough. Yeah. Everybody has those like really awful days because let's be honest, sometimes owners or tenants or vendors and sometimes life just happens, right? [00:23:27] So it's tough and sometimes it's tough. All the time or it's tough for a while. This is not an easy industry. So when you've got this pressure all the time and this like annoyance, like, "Oh, that tenant's going to call me and yell at me again, or, Oh, like, Oh, I have to have this uncomfortable conversation and tell my client that we need a $15,000 sewer repair. [00:23:50] I don't want to do this." The it's the little things that will keep your team going and make sure that they understand like, "Hey. I know it's not the most glorious thing. I know it's always not super exciting, and it's not always super easy. However, what you're doing really makes a difference. It really is important and this is like the bigger mission and vision of the business and you contribute directly to that vision and what you're doing matters." [00:24:22] So that way it's like, Oh, you know, it's not this grind and this drain and we don't have a lot of churn on our own team and burnout and you know, bad team members that are like, "Oh, I hate my job." Right. Because that's super easy. It's easy and then you make it even harder. It's easy just by itself and then you make it harder because it's property management. [00:24:43] So it's super easy in property management to have that. So let's combat that. And just by recognizing them and saying like, "Hey, I saw you took care of that thing. Like, hey, oh my god, you got all the leases done. And hey," like, and it could be the littlest things. It's things that they do. Anyway, it doesn't matter. [00:25:00] They don't have to do anything that's like spectacular. "Oh my God. You like cleaned all the bathrooms today, Sally. Thank you. That was amazing. Like you didn't have to do that." It's little things and it's things that they're going to be doing anyway, but just let them know, "Hey, I see it. And I appreciate it." [00:25:16] Jason: All right. So the other thing I'll say about recognition is you might be thinking, well, salespeople and entrepreneurs, do they like recognition? The answer is yes. They like it too. We still like it. They like it too. So if you're giving them recognition that adds more fuel to the fire, right? And so you need a system like DoorGrow OS in which everybody gets recognized for their accomplishments and everyone will perform and behave better because they feel seen by everyone. [00:25:42] And that has value, right? Now one more point I want to make is you might get somebody, an assistant, you're like a VA, you're like they're amazing. I love them so much. They're so awesome. I don't want to lose them. And then you are like, because you're hardwired to be so money focused, you're like, I'm going to pay them a whole bunch more money. [00:26:02] I see this happen so often. Be very careful about just giving out raises prematurely. Be very careful about this because what I've seen over and over again, I've been in masterminds, multimillion dollar business owners, we're hanging out together and they're like, "Hey I just got this assistant. She was super amazing. So I gave her this big raise 'cause she's so awesome. And now she's showing up late. She's not like getting things done. She seems like entitled." This is what happens when you compensate people financially, instead of giving them recognition and doing it based on how you think instead of what they want, you then sabotage their efforts or they start to sabotage their efforts. [00:26:43] So don't start paying somebody more just because you like them, right? There needs to be a justifiable reason and they need to be able to justify that reason. And so they may need to come to you and be like, "Hey, here's why I deserve more compensation." And you're checking in with them regularly and saying, "Hey, how are things going?" [00:27:01] And if you have an open communication with your team members, they're going to tell you when they feel like it's time that they deserve some more money. And it's going to be really uncomfortable for them to do it if they don't like money, it's going to be so uncomfortable to have that conversation, but it's also uncomfortable for you to spend more money. [00:27:17] Team are the biggest expense. Your discomfort in giving somebody a raise should be equal to their discomfort in asking for it. It's my thought. And so they need to be reaching out. To some degree, and you may recognize somebody deserves more pay, you know, deep down they're being paid too little. [00:27:36] So then you can give them a raise, but be careful about handing this out.  [00:27:40] Sarah: My other little tip with raises is I worked in corporate for a bit and it was like every year, you know, you're going to get a raise and how much of a raise you get depend, depend on all your stupid numbers and metrics and all, you know, call time and all that stuff. [00:27:55] So you knew you were getting a raise though, like for sure, unless for some reason they're firing you, right? But other than that, you know, like, "Oh, my annual review is coming up. How much money am I going to make now?" And then they expect it. And then you don't really appreciate it because it's expected. And it's like normal now it's like, "Oh, well I'm getting a raise now. [00:28:13] Now I'm going to raise." And then. What also happens is, "well, I'm getting a raise," and sometimes people go, "Oh, well I deserve like this much." And then they don't get that. They get less. And then they're like mad about it. They're mad because they're making more money. It's not as much money as they wanted or as I expected. [00:28:30] So one of my big rules when it comes to raises is with raise comes responsibility. Don't just throw out more money. Like, "Hey, if you want to go from here to here, I'm happy to take you there. This is what that would look like. Are you in?  [00:28:44] Jason: Okay. One last thing. Titles. Titles are heavily connected to compensation. [00:28:49] So I dealt with this week. I talked to a property manager. They had like 20 doors or something and they hired a director of operations. No. You can't afford a director of operations. So the thing is, yeah, I said, "tell them they are an operations assistant in ecrow." And said, I gave you this inflated title. [00:29:06] You're an operations assistant. Maybe then eventually they could graduate operations manager. Maybe then be the, you know, maybe eventually. The director of operations, VP of operations, COO, but titles matter. So be very careful about handing out titles. Start everybody out as a something assistant or junior  [00:29:24] Sarah: property manager, junior assistant, property manager, or you can just have levels, property manager, one property manager, two property manager, three, like. [00:29:32] There's a lot of different ways you can do it. Be careful about titles. Yeah, be super careful about  [00:29:36] Jason: titles. Because they'll go look it up on salary. com and they'll be like, "Oh I deserve this. I'm director of property management. I guess I should be getting 150k or whatever, right?"  [00:29:46] Sarah: And also, 20 doors, fun little caveat. Be careful when you're reviewing resumes with titles for the same reason. Because titles they sound really impressive sometimes and they mean they could be made up They mean nothing when I got hired at an insurance job. They were like, oh we have to make your business card And I said, "okay," and they said "well, what do you want your title to be?" [00:30:05] And I said, "I pick my own title?" And they're like, "yeah, you can put whatever you want on there." And I said, "well, aren't I a sales rep?" And they're like, "yeah, but don't put sales rep." I'm like, "oh, okay. So what should I put?" They're like, "put like account manager or account executive or like something like that." [00:30:24] So I don't remember what we came up with, but. Came up with something that sounded like I was like, "Ooh, I'm a big deal." I was a sales rep. That's it. I sell things. That's it. But the title sounded a lot more impressive. And sometimes that can go to people's head just a bit. And keep in mind, money is connected to the title. [00:30:45] It always will be. So get on. And if you're like, "well, I don't know what to," Google will help you just get on. Well, I just had this conversation, I think two weeks ago with client. " Well, I don't want to hire like the COO of the company. I can't afford that." You're right. You can't. So. [00:31:00] What are they doing? Maybe they're the team leader. Maybe they're the office manager. Maybe they're an operations assistant. Like get on, find some kind of title, get on Google and say, what are other job titles for this thing? And it will tell you and pick one of those and avoid things like manager, juror, and like VP president or like, Senior account executive, things like that. [00:31:26] Because it. It will be startling if someone. Looks at their position and realizes. "Oh, I should be making 125 and I'm only paid 55. Huh? That's odd."  [00:31:38] Jason: All right, so wrap us up. Give us a call to action. [00:31:41] Sarah: Just If you feel like you're struggling with any of this and I know there's so many of you that are like, "oh man. Yeah, that's me." [00:31:48] I might have made some of these mistakes and that's okay because we all have we've done it to Go on doorgrow. com Book a call with us. We can help you with this stuff.  [00:31:56] Jason: This is what we do. Yeah, and if you made any of these mistakes, I guarantee there's a lot of others going on in the business you can't see right now. [00:32:03] We can help you get this cleaned up and help you make a lot more money, help you grow a lot faster. All right. All right until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:32:11] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:32:37] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

IntroAt the gracious invitation of AI Safety Twitter-fluencer Sarah Hastings-Woodhouse, I appeared on the very first episode of her new podcast “Consistently Candid” to debate moral realism (or something kinda like that, I guess; see below) with fellow philosophy nerd and EA Twitter aficionado Max Alexander, alongside Sarah as moderator and judge of sorts.What I believeIn spite of the name of the episode and the best of my knowledge/understanding a few days ago, it turns out my stance may not be ~genuine~ moral realism. Here's my basic meta-ethical take:* Descriptive statements that concern objective relative goodness or badness (e.g., "it is objectively for Sam to donate $20 than to buy an expensive meal that costs $20 more than a similar, less fancy meal”) can be and sometimes are true; but* Genuinely normative claims like “Sam should (!) donate $20 and should not buy that fancy meal” are never objectively true.Of course the label per se doesn't really matter. But for a bunch of reasons it still seems wise to figure out which label really does work best.Some definitionsStanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: Moral realists are those who think that, in these respects, things should be taken at face value—moral claims do purport to report facts and are true if they get the facts right. Moreover, they hold, at least some moral claims actually are true. That much is the common and more or less defining ground of moral realism (although some accounts of moral realism see it as involving additional commitments, say to the independence of the moral facts from human thought and practice, or to those facts being objective in some specified way).Wikipedia:The robust model of moral realism commits moral realists to three theses:* The semantic thesis: The primary semantic role of moral predicates (such as "right" and "wrong") is to refer to moral properties (such as rightness and wrongness), so that moral statements (such as "honesty is good" and "slavery is unjust") purport to represent moral facts, and express propositions that are true or false (or approximately true, largely false, and so on).* The alethic thesis: Some moral propositions are in fact true.* The metaphysical thesis: Moral propositions are true when actions and other objects of moral assessment have the relevant moral properties (so that the relevant moral facts obtain), where these facts and properties are robust: their metaphysical status, whatever it is, is not relevantly different from that of (certain types of) ordinary non-moral facts and properties.And to settle the matter, here's what some LLM have to say.My prompt:Suppose a person believes the following:1: Descriptive statements that concern objective relative goodness or badness (e.g., "it is objectively for Sam to donate $20 than to buy an expensive meal that costs $20 more than a similar, less fancy meal”) can be and sometimes are true; but 2: Genuinely normative claims like “Sam should donate $20 and should not buy that fancy meal” are never objectively true.Is this person best categorized as a moral realist?ChatGPTGiven these two beliefs, the person's stance doesn't align completely with traditional moral realism, which typically asserts that there are objective truths about both moral facts (like the goodness or badness of actions) and moral duties (what one should or should not do). However, it also doesn't fully align with moral anti-realism, since the person believes in some form of objective truth regarding moral value.One possible categorization for this stance could be a form of "value realism" combined with "normative anti-realism" or "normative subjectivism." This would mean that the person believes in objective truths about what is better or worse (value realism) but thinks that what one ought to do (normative claims) is not a matter of objective truth but perhaps of subjective judgment or societal conventions.This position is quite sophisticated and might be best understood as a hybrid or intermediate position in the landscape of moral philosophy, rather than fitting neatly into the category of moral realism or its standard alternatives.Great, so much for trying to fit things into nice little buckets.Claude, fortunately, is more definitive:No, the view described is not best categorized as moral realism. Here's why:Moral realism is the view that there are objective moral facts or truths. A moral realist believes that some moral claims, including normative claims about what one should or shouldn't do, can be objectively and mind-independently true.The view in the example accepts that there can be objective truths about relative degrees of goodness or badness (claim 1). However, it denies that there are objective normative truths about what one should or shouldn't do (claim 2). By rejecting that genuine normative 'should/shouldn't' claims can be objectively true, the view denies a key commitment of moral realism - namely that moral claims can state objective normative facts. At best it allows for objective evaluative facts about goodness/badness, not prescriptive facts about obligations.So this view would be more accurately categorized as a form of moral anti-realism like non-cognitivism or error theory. It does not qualify as moral realism because of its rejection of the existence of objective normative truths that could make strong normative claims justified or true. The commitment to objective evaluative facts alone does not sufficiently qualify the view as realist in the metaethical sense.In summary, the view accepts objective "good/bad" facts but denies objective "should/shouldn't" facts. This combination puts it at odds with core commitments of moral realism, so it is better seen as an anti-realist view.I'm gonna disagree with Claude here, at least in that the bolded claim above (objective normative facts are a key part of moral realism) just seems…wrong? Like all the definitions could replace the term “moral fact” or “moral claim” with “normative fact” and “normative claim” but they do not!So I really don't have a great answer to which label works best. One of two ~human level chatbots giving me a definitive-sounding “anti-realism” answer is too much evidence for me, whose only formal philosophy training is an undergrad minor, to rule that one out. There are also good arguments, I think, for the “realist label,” as well as for “neither” (i.e., ‘secret third thing'). In fact all of these seem pretty similar in terms of argument convincingness/correctness. So, in sum,

At DoorGrow, we love showing off the awesome entrepreneurial people we get to coach and work with every day. In today's episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with DoorGrow clients Jill Lyons and Alex Platt to talk about their journey in property management and with DoorGrow. You'll Learn [03:00] Starting a journey with coaching [07:26] Finding support as an entrepreneur [12:18] The path to success is hard work [16:54] Getting out of the business [19:28] The importance of good company culture [21:20] The impact of coaching Tweetables “Done is better than perfect.” “The more valuable you are to your business, the less valuable your business is.” “If you don't mind working, you don't set up boundaries.” “Just being open to the thought and the idea is enough to make it work.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: The more valuable you are to your business, the less valuable your business is. Ooh, like that one.  [00:00:07] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:47] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win I'm your host, property management, growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow along with Sarah Hull, co owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. [00:01:13] Our guests today... we've got Jill and Alex. Jill Lyons. Alex, what's your last name? Platt. Okay. I just know he's always with Jill, Alex. So we're really glad to have you on the show. And the topic of today's episode is like, we want to talk about your journey with DoorGrow because you've been with us for a little bit. So, why don't you introduce yourself and explain like kind of how you got into property management.  [00:01:39] Jill: Well, I must've taken an insane pill along the way, but I like it. My name is Jill Lyons and I own and I'm broker of Relaxed Realty Group in Sarasota, Florida. Currently we manage about 500 homes. We have like maybe 520 now and our rent roll, we just surpassed 800,000 this month, so I'm stoked and happy and proud. And you know, I love the business. There's never a day that's not that I feel like, "Oh my gosh, it's, you know, Monday." I never feel like that. So it's every day is a joy. Not every instant is a joy, but every day is a joy.  [00:02:12] Jason: So let's Alex, why don't you introduce yourself and tell us what is your role?  [00:02:17] Alex: So, my name is Alex and I've worked with Jill here just over a year and a half, or going on almost two years when I got my real estate license. My wife started with Jill, Miranda, and she's been with Jill for what, 10 years now? Started with a business with her and I do the operations here. So operations and BDM.  [00:02:38] Jason: Awesome. Okay, cool.  [00:02:41] Jill: So he came from a customer service background with T Mobile for the last 10 years. It's great. Corporate's a great, but there's a lot more opportunity here and oh my God, he's great with people. Of course He's not " to brag about himself. So I'll brag about him. So he will put on multiple hats and do everything that whatever needs to be done.  [00:03:00] Jason: Cool. Yeah, you guys make a good team. We've enjoyed having you in the program. So why don't we start with what problem problems were you dealing with when you first came to DoorGrow? Like what challenges were going on?  [00:03:14] Jill: So I would say my strengths are that I love to sell and talk to people and help people. So, you know, that was naturally there and I grew the business with success with growing doors. And I was in a kind of a comfortable, I would say position as. Having a good amount of owners and properties, but I want to start exiting the business and it was just way too 'me centered,' you know, what do we do? What do we do with people coming to me? You know, I don't mind working. Like I say, so unfortunately, if you don't mind working, you don't set up boundaries, you don't set up corporate structures. My flow, there was nothing corporate about me. [00:03:49] If I wanted to step away, which I did this year, hired the operations manager, but I'm like, now what? And now what do you do? I'm an engineer by education. All I know how to do is build a spreadsheet and show people returns. So I was looking for ...I always believed in coaches. I've been coached since day one of my business. [00:04:07] So coaching is definitely something I believe in, but the coaching company I used was really just real estate working with buyers and sellers. So I hadn't ever got the property management business aspect of it and setting up the business and the structure. So when you watched one of your podcasts and listened to your podcast, and I liked what you had to say, so I-- "let's let them get us to that next level." [00:04:32] Jason: Watch the podcast, listen to the podcast, and now you're on the podcast.  [00:04:36] Jill: I know, I'm like, what do I have to offer? That's the first thing, I'm still listening and learning.  [00:04:42] Jason: You know, there's a lot of people listening out there that would dream of having 520 doors, having an amazing operator, having the operations running smoothly and being on your journey, stepping out of the business, like this, that's a dream for a lot of property managers. [00:04:58] They're still in the thick of the mud and wondering if there's a light at the end of the tunnel.  [00:05:03] Jill: So they don't believe that I'm going to step out.  [00:05:05] Alex: She's a workaholic. So, you know, it's a little bit of yin and yang.  [00:05:09] Jason: You know, entrepreneurs, it's a tough thing. I've known a few entrepreneurs that have like exited their business and then they were bored and they started another business. It happens. So entrepreneurs, we want to stay busy and we want to do the things we really enjoy doing. So you just have to find something you maybe enjoy doing more.  [00:05:29] Jill: I don't know. Yeah, no, I'm not closed to what's next, but I don't know. I'm still here.  [00:05:35] Jason: So let's chat about, and maybe this is a question for Alex. So Alex what did you see when you first came into the business? Some of the challenges in how to like support Jill and how to get her out of the operational stuff. And what challenges did you see that DoorGrow so far been able to help with?  [00:05:54] Alex: So luckily with your program we got to revamp everything. I mean, your Rapid Revamp was amazing. I mean, we got to go from rebuilding and rebranding our logo and everything. So I really enjoyed your class, especially with the whole cycle of suck, making sure that you're not holding onto those owners that are sucking up all your time and, you know, using. A lot of your resource when it comes down to it. I would say those were the biggest things and especially your systems that you have. I mean, I think the Flow is going to help a lot for us to map out each and every one of our procedures that we have on an operational standpoint.  [00:06:33] Jason: Okay. So for those listening, DoorGrow Flow, our process software, which is pretty cool. So the Rapid Revamp, I mean, and you guys made a lot of changes. Yes. Changed your pricing.  [00:06:43] Alex: We changed our name.  [00:06:44] Jill: You changed the name. I said I would never, ever do that!  [00:06:49] Sarah: She's like " I'm not rebranding." I'm like, "okay, we don't have to rebrand." And then she's like, "I think I'm going to rebrand." I was like, "wow! All right, let's do it."  [00:06:58] Jason: Everybody says they don't want to do it. But what I love about entrepreneurs is that if you show them how to make more money, they're pretty okay with it. They're pretty okay with making more money. So, and I think the training, we do a good job in converting people into wanting to make more money. "Here's how it'll make you more money if you do the right things with your branding." So website. Did we help with that?  [00:07:23] Alex: We're almost there. We're on the tail end of that portion of it.  [00:07:26] Jason: So for those that have not been exposed to DoorGrow. Maybe they're just listening to this podcast. They're like, "I don't know if these guys are legit. Kind of looks like some sort of one of these Influencer sort of guys," or I don't know what people think before they become a client but what would you say to those that are on the other side of the paywall and maybe struggling?  [00:07:51] Jill: For me, honestly, if I would have found this 10 years ago, it would have happened faster, my growth and where I am now would have happened faster and more organized. I kind of wing it and I'm the type that, you know, I don't want to spend any money unless a bunch of sitting in the bank. And I probably, if I would have opened up the bank and gotten the coaching and the programs from a property management company versus just from, you know, where I got my assistance from, which I had when I did buying and selling, which I hate it. So I kind of kept my things rather than going into property management coaching and training. It would have definitely made it faster and less painful, and I would say that's the biggest thing that I wish I would have found you sooner, but you know, you always find people when you're supposed to find them and entrepreneurs tend not to be, in my opinion, people that go to business school because they just want to do it. They jump in head first. There's no rhyme or reason to how we do it. So the organization is usually where we struggle the most. And just networking and having the beginning, I just went to Google and figured everything out on my own, rather than reaching out to an organization like yours, that's more specific for us and NARPM, which, you know connected me to other property managers and how are they doing it? And why did I have to create the wheel and do it all my way? I didn't even know that there was anything like this.  [00:09:16] Jason: Yeah. And you had been in NARPM for a while before joining DoorGrow.  [00:09:20] Jill: Yeah. I'm heavily involved in NARPM. I'm the president of our local chapter. So that definitely has made helped my business, and the connection and they have a lot of tools that have helped me significantly realize that it is a business and with systems. But but there isn't the sales support, you know, they don't have you, Jason. It's not energetic and make me go, "yes! I'm going to do it!" With you and with everybody around! You know, it's just like the connections.  [00:09:48] Jason: Yeah. I know you have both really enjoyed the operational pieces as well, and you've attended quite a few of our scale calls on Friday that Sarah runs. What what things have you taken away from on the operational side of things? [00:10:04] Jill: So what would you say, because you deal with that more? I kind of say, go do it.  [00:10:07] Alex: So, I take a lot of the way, honestly, you guys definitely on those calls go over a lot of different systems that are in other people's companies, to be honest. And we try to take piece by piece and just kind of make it our own when it comes to this. I think it's developing more of the systems that we have. As far as like a specific system, I think we talked about maintenance heavily. And the processes over how other companies do it and what we do with our maintenance. So it's kind of getting every pieces of everybody's input on that stuff to kind of lay out what maybe we should change, you know? [00:10:45] Jill: I will say that as far as operational, we were in pretty good shape with that. It's not technicalogical. So you have DoorGrow flow. I'm just talking with Errol tomorrow. So it's been on my list of things to do this whole year to set up flow and get that going so that it's more clear how we do things because when we have a new employee, I can't just hand them, "these are our thing," we have to manually tell them or give them a checklist, which doesn't really help. So, I have to hire Errol cause it stays on my list every single month and it hasn't been done. That's what I'm going to pass the buck on versus the website. I'd like to do the marketing. So we need to finish all of this by the end of the year. That's on our list. Does it check the list? We're at the last, getting to the last quarter. So you give us the tools. It's just setting it up. That takes a lot of time and concentration time. And Errol seemed to be I met him at DoorGrow live, you know, in Texas. And yeah, he was talking about processes and creating them. Like I talked about property management, so he's going to be our guy. I'll see how it goes.  [00:11:47] Alex: We have a lot in our heads, obviously. So, that's getting it all down to where if somebody needs to know something, it's much easier.  [00:11:56] Jason: Yeah we're planning on doing some more stuff with Errol Allen, who Jill's speaking with, and he's currently playing around with our DoorGrow flow software and testing it out as well. [00:12:05] So I think it's going to be a game changer for the market. So Sarah's had a lot of interaction, I think, with the two of you. What's been your perception of why they do so well as clients?  [00:12:18] Sarah: Oh, well, so there's a few things that I'd like to kind of. Point out and give you guys like major kudos on. First is, I think you're just open. Sometimes we have people who are very resistant. They're like, " that won't work," and "I'm not going to do it like this," and "I can't do this," and "that's not in my market," right? And I think the difference is just being open to the thought and the idea is enough to make it work because if you go into something and you think, "oh, this won't work," well, you're probably right. Then it's not going to work. But you guys are very open and you also, I love this about you guys, you take action. You just come in and you're like, "this is what we're going to do," and then you take action, you implement and you get it done. I think, to date, they are the fastest people who have completed everything in the Rapid Revamp. Like, they get a medal for that. Like, every time, they're like, "yep, we're done with this," I'm like, "oh, wow, okay!" They just get it done. It's like they just put their heads down. They know what they need to do. They put in the work and they get it done and then they go, "okay, great, we did that. What do we need now? Like what's the next thing that we can do to either like build on top of that or like take us to the next level? And I think you guys are really great at that. And I think you, you work very well together. You know, you balance each other out. You like ping well back and forth, back together, and I think that gives you the ability to move things along so quickly.  [00:13:44] Alex: It's great to have ideas that we can bounce off of each other and make it a solid process and get it out of the way and move on to the next one.  [00:13:52] Jill: Well, and I love a checklist. So you have a checklist. I want to see checks on there. I don't want to see them open. So I think that myself, I can be more reactionary property management. Our phone is always ringing. Things are always happening. You know, I can easily not get anything accomplished in a day and be busy the whole day. So with the Rapid Revamp it has me be on track along with handling the things that come on you know all day but I have to get my things done  [00:14:18] Alex: And the nice thing about your dashboard was the fact that you could assign things, we would take them and split them up and be like, "okay, you're going to do these and they're assigned to you" and then I could assign ones to me so we can you know, handle what we needed to.  [00:14:30] Jason: Cool. [00:14:31] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think that was really awesome just to see you guys because every time I check in with you, you're like, "Oh, yeah, we're done with that already." Like, okay, let's see what's the next thing for you guys? And you already knew! You were never like, "Hey, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. Like, you just like stayed the course. And sometimes it's hard for entrepreneurs to do because there's so many shiny objects. There's so many of them, right? Like, "Hey, I'm coming in, I'm doing this one thing and that's it," and then along the way, there's like some other little thing that's like, "Hey, I need your attention." [00:15:04] And it's so tempting to go, "Ooh, but I could focus on that." Like, " let me just go over here for a second," and like, you guys just stayed the course. You like stay on point. And I think that's that's something I really have to give you guys like a huge compliment on because it's hard to do that. It's really difficult to do that. And you guys do it really well.  [00:15:25] Jill: Thank you.  [00:15:26] Jason: Yeah. And so you've interacted with several of our team members, right? It's not just the Jason show or the Jason and Sarah show. And I think that's what a lot of people think. Could you just comment a little bit on DoorGrow's team? You don't have to remember everybody's names, but yeah.  [00:15:43] Jill: Well the two that I've probably enjoyed the most is Clint. He's like the coolest surfer dude in the whole wide world, but he's sharp as a tack. You know, "we're just going to buy a $5 million company." He's the exact person to teach you how to be cool and do acquisitions and whatnot. [00:16:03] And that you can see why he's so successful because he's a joy to listen to.  [00:16:07] Jason: Yeah, he's fun.  [00:16:08] Jill: And ironically considering an acquisition in the middle of all listening to him and he took his time out, sent me a lot of information and questions I should ask and what due diligence I should do. So, I mean, his wealth of all the years that he's done that, enticed in a few documents was, I could have never created that. And then Roya, she's a ball of energy and I'm all into manifesting and all that. So, I mean, not many people you can feel through a computer screen with their energy, you know, that's heard of talent that she has.  [00:16:43] Jason: Yeah, she's our dangerously powerful mindset coach. And teaches the advanced sales stuff. [00:16:51] She's yeah she's had quite an impact. Yeah.  [00:16:54] Jill: Yeah. For sure.  [00:16:56] I went to DoorGrow live, which was fantastic to connect with everybody. But thanks to DoorGrow and Alex being also trained as a DoorGrow. I'm taking my first three week vacation in 10 years.  [00:17:08] Jason: That's amazing. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Your business will be in good hands with Alex and and we've got his back. So. For sure. So awesome. Yep. Property managers, if you're listening to this and you have not taken a significant vacation in the last five years, when's your turn? Maybe it's time to reach out and let us help you take- this is one of the most common things that we hear, especially this summer. [00:17:36] Lots of our clients are taking vacations like for the first time ever, or in the first time in a long time, or it's a longer vacation than they've been able to take.  [00:17:45] Sarah: Brandon and Mark, they took off the majority of July, both of them, took off the majority of July, and they're like, "things were fine, like things were okay," I'm like, "that's great, that's how it should work," and if we set it up that way, then things can work that way.  [00:18:01] Jason: For sure. Yeah, one of our mentors had this quote, I don't know where it came from, but he said, the more valuable you are to your business, the less valuable your business is. Ooh, like that one. So Jill's working on making herself less valuable to the business. I've made DoorGrow less of the Jason show, and we've got all these amazing coaches and yeah, and that's the goal, right? We're able to provide more value and it allows us to be more free as entrepreneurs. To do the things that we really enjoy doing and eventually maybe to do nothing. If that's really the goal. I don't know. Jill, will have to find something to do. She's going to trap the world. She'll think we're not going to do nothing. Exactly. We're not going to do nothing. I don't think Jill knows what to do.  [00:18:43] Jill: We just want freedom to not always to be working.  [00:18:46] Jason: There you go. Yeah.  [00:18:48] Sarah: You can choose the things you do.  [00:18:50] Jill: Yeah.  [00:18:51] Jason: Well, we've really appreciated having you both in the program. You know, the, Sarah mentioned about you, but what I've noticed is Jill, you have this gift of positivity, it seems to rub off on everyone around you. We've really enjoyed having you in the program. Everyone's like, "Oh, we love Jill." All of our coaches and team members love Jill. And you can see Alex has like got a positive, you know, energy going on as well. And so you've created a really good culture on your team and in your business. And I don't know if it's always been that way, but I know that's something that's important to us at DoorGrow is making sure everybody has good culture with their business and with their team. So can you touch on culture just a little bit? [00:19:30] Jill: Well, I think connection and culture is the most important thing. If I don't have it here, how is a client going to want to be attracted to us? You know, how is that going to work? You know, if you don't have a positive look on the industry, the business... I mean, this is anybody that calls us is frustrated with property management and say, "here, we love to do property management." They're like, "I need you!" [00:19:51] you know, tenants and everybody gets to complain to us and we have to listen to them and, you know, do our job, but in these walls of this company, we don't have to do that. We can vent to each other. We can laugh. We don't complain. We more laugh about situations than we do complain. And I think I've been a good leader as far as that goes. But I think that also because I have that energy, I want to attract that energy. And so those people are, who are working here and stay.  [00:20:18] Jason: I love that. I mean, I think having a culture in which complaining is not the norm. I mean, it's easy to complain in property management. Right? And I'm sure there's a lot of you listening that are like, " I complain all the time. I complain every day," like reducing that complaining in the business and creating a culture where the team don't see that it's totally okay to just complain all the time. Because if you're complaining about your clients, they're going to feel that. They're not going to want to work with somebody that's, they know is just going to be complaining about them behind their back. [00:20:47] And so I think that's really powerful. And I think that there's a lot of joking in property management, and I think if you can't laugh about it, then you're just going to be hurt by it, and so...  [00:20:58] Jill: and the only way you make a lot of money is to do the things that nobody wants to do. [00:21:02] Jason: There you go. And they will pay you a pretty penny to do it. [00:21:05] Alex: Yeah, we don't have one person that dreads coming to work every day. That's for sure. Everybody's like, "oh shoot. It's monday. Let's go!"  [00:21:11] Jill: We're a little family.  [00:21:13] Jason: Awesome. Yeah, I love that. You have a good culture. So, cool well, anything else we should chat about? What are the biggest takeaways you feel like you've gotten from being part of working with DoorGrow for those listening? [00:21:28] Jill: I think first of all to make sure that I express my purpose to everybody, you know, start with the person.  [00:21:34] Jason: Has that changed your close rate? Has that changed how clients respond to you?  [00:21:39] Jill: Oh, just overall being brave enough to start with that, you know, I always assume they don't care, you know they're not calling for my me personally, but they are, you know, and some would get to know me on a personal level over time, but I never started the conversation with that. [00:21:54] I always started it with "I love property management" and I think they could feel our energy, but not deep down what my life purpose is. So, and how I could tie that back into having them become our client. But it gets a personal, it makes it a personal fit right away or not.  [00:22:11] Jason: Yeah. They either trust your motives and like them or they don't, but they, at least they know what your motives are. Otherwise they're just going to assume you just want their money.  [00:22:20] Jill: Yeah. The name change was a huge one. And then the third, I think final one for me is. When you did your stack deck and it wasn't like perfectly animated with all these designs and it looked great. And I'm fine with it. I stopped judging my marketing to have to be the caliber of Coca Cola. [00:22:40] I don't have designers out there. I don't want to spend design. So just produce it and get it out there and make it look kind of quirky and we're quirky anyway. So I don't know why I was thinking that we had to be this high level, corporate marketing program in order for it to work.  [00:22:54] Jason: I think done is better than perfect for sure. [00:22:57] That's one of my  [00:22:57] Alex: favorite things is like, no, just get it complete and then we'll move on and we'll get the next thing done.  [00:23:03] Jason: Yeah. Done makes money. And you've made a lot of changes. You've gotten a lot of things done that are going to help shore up leaks that make you a lot more money. And. Yeah. A lot of people get really caught up on things being so perfect. [00:23:14] They don't get as nearly as much done. So kudos to both of you for implementing and taking action. So, well, we appreciate you coming and hanging out with us here on the show. What do you feel like, what are some tangible results besides the brand? Revenue doors, any other shifts that you've seen in the business since joining? [00:23:33] Jill: Well, we've gotten rid of a lot of the properties. I had the guts to say to a couple owners, you know, "You have to either sell this property or find another manager because it's too much of a liability. And I'm scared to because X Y Z and so should you." And obviously it's a great time to sell last year. So this is the time get to get a better asset, 1031 exchange it, or let's you know, we need to drop it by the end of the year. I didn't, you know, say we're going to drop you on 30 days, but they, most of them, most of those as a consulting, they trust us and know us and they sold those properties. We have two that are closing this week, our last two that are closing and we had problems. Yeah, problems. So we've gotten rid of a lot of problems since the beginning and liability issues, you know, you know, liabilities. So that's that's, I think our biggest deal and it's allowed other doors to come in. [00:24:28] It's amazing what you let go just energetically things will fill its place. So door wise, I would say we're at about the same, but revenue has gone up 20%.  [00:24:38] Alex: We've been getting higher-end properties instead of, you know, things that were D class properties that we didn't want.  [00:24:44] Jason: Love it. 20 percent more revenue. Awesome, that does not suck.  [00:24:48] Sarah: And getting rid of the problem, right?  [00:24:55] Jason: Well, we appreciate you being clients and we're super excited to see your progression through the DoorGrow code, and this business I think that could easily be at a thousand doors in the next two to three years. It's totally doable, especially if you start doing some of the acquisition deals, like it's going to be really interesting once you get some of these systems in place, then you're ready to just scale like crazy. So excited to see what you do. All right. Well then we'll go ahead and wrap up. Appreciate you being on the show. [00:25:25] Thanks for hanging out with us, Alex and Jill. Thank you. Great.  [00:25:29] For those listening, if you want to be like Alex and Jill and make good decisions and grow your business in a healthy way, and maybe increase your revenue 20%. aNd clean up your portfolio and optimize your sales pipeline so you make more money, more easily reach out to DoorGrow. [00:25:45] We would love to take a look at your business and see if we can help you. The answer is: we can... most likely and see if you'd be a good fit for our program. You can check us out at doorgrow. com. There's a big pink button on the home page says "I want to grow." click that. Do the three steps there to see if you'd be a good candidate to work with us, and until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone  [00:26:08] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:26:35] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Being a business owner can be incredibly stressful at times, and property management entrepreneurs know exactly how stressful it can be. Today, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss how property management entrepreneurs can reduce and manage their stress. You'll Learn [03:07] Why property managers are so stressed [12:18] The secret to stress relief is… going for walks! [13:42] The magic of mini breaks [19:42] Taking care of your physical health to reduce stress [22:52] You put too much pressure on yourself [27:41] The problem with starting multiple businesses Tweetables “You put up with whatever situation you create.” “The beautiful thing about having a business is that you can create the business. You can build it around you and you can structure it in a way that allows you to reduce your stress, especially once you start to build a team.” “The business can take as much of you from you and your life as you're willing to allow it.” “In order to have more than one successful business, you must first have one successful business.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: You put up with whatever situation you create and the beautiful thing about having a business is that you can create the business, you can build it around you, and you can structure it in a way that allows you to reduce your stress especially once you start to build a team.  [00:00:17] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. [00:00:33] DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income.  [00:00:51] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win.  [00:01:05] I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, along with Sarah Hull, co owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:19] All right. So today I reached out to Morgan, one of our coaches on our team, and I said, "What should we talk about on the podcast? What are you running into with clients lately related to coaching?" Should I just read what she said or...? I'll sum it up. So basically she said a lot of property managers have a lot on their plates. A lot of y'all have a lot on your plate and you're not taking care of yourself. And, you know, this might sting a little to hear for some of you are not taking care of yourself right now, you know, you should be, maybe you should be eating better, you should be getting more sleep, you should be having less stress, should be like stepping up more as mom or dad, taking care of your kids, being part of the family, whatever it is, but you're just, you're not able to really be there in a lot of different ways because you are too busy being a martyr, too busy being a martyr, allowing property management to take over your life, allowing tenants to take over your life, allowing owners to dictate your life, and you're trying to please all of these other people. Probably matter a lot less to you than your family does, right? So that's what we're  [00:02:39] chat about today. We're going to talk a little bit about today, about how it's possible to have it all. You can have a successful business. You can manage your time well, you can get support. You can have the space to work with DoorGrow, have time for coaching. You can have it all. And she also mentioned other big challenges is related to this is juggling multiple businesses. So these are some of the things we can get into today. Where should we start?  [00:03:07] Sarah: Well, I think a good place to start is Let's address the elephant in the room, which is like stress. Stress in property management is super common because it is a very stressful business. It's a high pace, like fast moving business. Typically it's not something where hey, we have, you know, 18 days to figure this out and we could just take our time. Oftentimes it's like a fast moving, high pressure industry in general. [00:03:38] And I think that there are definitely ways to kind of help like reduce and mitigate stress. I just don't know how often people actually do it, and for a while I was in that bucket too. I really, I was like experiencing burnout and I think that's really common for people is just to go, "well, this is just normal. Like I own a business and this is normal and this is what owning a business is. This is what property management is, you know, this is what it's like. I have to just put up with it. And you don't. You put up with whatever situation you create and the beautiful thing about having a business is that you can create the business you can build it around you and you can structure it in a way that allows you to reduce your stress especially once you start to build a team. [00:04:29] Jason: Yeah, I think In building a business, any business, any industry, the business can take as much of you from you and your life as you're willing to allow it. And so it's really about setting healthy boundaries. And boundaries really aren't so much about telling everybody else, this is how you need to treat me necessarily. [00:04:53] Boundaries are really just about what you are going to do and not going to do. That's it, like it's in your wheelhouse. A lot of times people think boundaries are about like trying to control somebody else or telling somebody else you're not allowed to do this to me or say this or do... that's controlling. [00:05:10] That's not necessarily boundaries. Boundaries really are, "if you do these things..." If the tenant's going to treat or talk to me this way, I'm going to, you know, do this, or if the owner is going to treat me or talk to me this way, then this is going to be the consequence I'm going to do this since about what you're going to do. [00:05:28] And one of the ways you can easily set a boundary you know, back when I had a job, which is a while ago, I'm pretty much unemployable now. I think most of the entrepreneurs listening would agree they're unemployable now. You just wouldn't probably be able to work for somebody else. You're enjoying too much freedom as a business owner, even if it's your stress and your problem, it's yours, right? But one of the things I had to do is I had a job where I was managing an entire like tech support team and I got all the escalation calls and the work was never done. It was endless. It was never gone. It was never like, at the end of the day, I completed everything. [00:06:06] And could just go home and it was all done and I'm sure property managers feel they feel a lot like this. [00:06:12] Oh, yeah. [00:06:12] It's just it's never done.  [00:06:14] It's never done. [00:06:15] Always outstanding stuff. [00:06:16] Always more to do... [00:06:17] ...work orders waiting  [00:06:18] Sarah: ...more you could do, where you're like, "well, okay i'm done, but let me try to see if I can get these things in" or like, "Oh, maybe now I have some time to focus on, you know, this thing." and it's this never ending loop. It's a never ending cycle.  [00:06:34] Jason: And when you know you have this endless to do list that you're always adding to. So it becomes a to die list because you're just making it bigger all the time. Probably there needs to be a cutoff, right? And so one simple boundary is you can say, "I'm done at 5 p. m." Like I'm going home and "I'm going to be with my family and I'm not going to work." Right. "I'm done." And now you need to set some things up, some systems in place so that you can be legitimately done by 5 p. m. Maybe it's you have an after hours call center. Maybe it's you've got somebody else on your team that has a phone, maybe the after hour stuff, you've got Filipino team members where it's like during normal hours for them, whatever, but you have some way of saying, "I'm done at five." Then from there on out, I get to be dad, I get to be family member, I get to like, feed myself, and I think this is like, in my study of like, men and women, I think men need this way more than women, but probably everybody needs this, but we need a time gap between work and family to transition. [00:07:42] I mean, at least like 30 minutes to an hour to decompress, especially when we first walk in the door. So like, guys, you need some way to become human again, because you're in like focus work mode and Sarah knows, like, I'm not good in that space. Like if she tries talking to me in that period. Like I'm not listening well, I'm not present and I'm like everyone's frustrated Like it just it doesn't go well.  [00:08:10] Sarah: There's usually a lot of "hello??" [00:08:12] Jason: Yeah, and I'm like ruminating on the last thing somebody said or something else and I'm just I mean I'm in problem solving mode And I have to like get out of that space. [00:08:23] Sarah: Yeah, like you're physically here, but you're just mentally like yeah elsewhere. You're not, and it's weird because people in your life don't know that, especially like if you work from home or if you have kids are like, if you're here, like you're here, I should be able to talk to you or call you or walk in your office or, right? [00:08:44] And it's about kind of training. It's like, "Hey, I'm here, but just pretend like I'm not, I know you can see me, I know you can hear me, but during work hours, you got to pretend like I'm not here because a lot of people work outside the home. So just pretend in your brain, like unless there is an emergency, like I'm not here," but it's weird because when you can see someone and they're physically there, you just kind of expect them to be, you know, available. [00:09:12] So it's I think what something that you could probably do a little bit better is like in that transitional period. Like just either hang out in your office or like go upstairs to the media room or go take a walk or something so that gives you space to like decompress and then when you're ready then come around me because women, I think our brains work just a little different than men's do but like if you have computers like it's like we have like a thousand tabs open at all times. Now they're open like they're doing stuff in the background But maybe there's like three tabs that you're actually looking at right now, but all the other ones, they're just like back here, kind of spinning. And all of a sudden one of those tabs is like, "Oh, ping! Hey, we need you!" And we're like, "Oh, pull that tab open. Like, let's go into that." And he's like, "Whoa, I'm not even paying attention yet." [00:10:00] Jason: I've heard it described that women's brains have what's called diffuse awareness, which basically means they're way better multitaskers than us, but they're aware of everything going on at the same time. [00:10:12] The disadvantage is pretty prominent when it comes to like war or like focusing on one thing right then and trying to shut out all the extra noise and all that like crazy craziness. That's where guys really tend to excel because we're singular focus in our brain. We can literally stop thinking. We can actually just not think about anything. [00:10:34] Sometimes women are like, "what are you thinking about?" And we're like, "nothing." We can actually do that. And women don't get that a lot. I don't get it. I don't know. Like, how do you not think? Yeah.  [00:10:44] Sarah: I think in my sleep too. Like I wake up with ideas that I didn't have the night before. And it's like just something was spinning around in my brain overnight. [00:10:52] Jason: So another thing I've noticed is I'm a lot more burnout by the end of the day if I don't get breaks. And a lot of times we have this, we get this obsessive need, like "I need to hustle, I got to do." And we become less and less effective. We're less and less present and we're less and less efficient and we're getting actually less done. [00:11:13] And so I find that for me, taking little breaks throughout the day, which I've been trying to do when I take little breaks throughout the day, it allows my brain to kind of unwind a little bit. It's like they say, if you keep a bow strung all the time, it loses its spring and you can no longer shoot arrows, right? [00:11:31] It's no longer effective as a tool. You unstring the bow when it's not in use. And so finding times throughout the day to give a little bit of break I think also as a way of setting boundaries for yourself and saying, I'm not going to just hiho silver all day long... and that's a Lone Ranger reference, but hiho silvering is where you're just, "I'm going to go! I'm going to solve the day! I'm going to do everything blah, blah, blah!" And you just go. And you're not really effective. You're just running around, go, go, going, you're not taking time to think, plan, meditate, chill out. You're reacting. Yeah, you're very, yes, you're very reactive instead of in control. So so I think that's another way to mitigate stress. [00:12:18] One of my biggest secrets for stress is just going for walks. It's a form of bilateral stimulation. It gets both sides of your brain to go back and forth. There's a form of therapy called EMDR therapy. I did, I worked with an EMDR therapist for a year, just from all the stress and trauma that exists in being an entrepreneur. My business coach at the time was like, "you need to go get EMDR therapy." And I was like, "okay, I'll go do it." And it was really helpful. But then I realized, you know what? The light moving back and forth or the vibrating paddle or having them move your eye back and forth. Bilateral stimulation also happens when you just go for a walk, and you just focus on feeling your feet while you think about whatever's stressing you out. And so, we like to go for walks.  [00:13:04] Sarah: Yeah, we do. I love walking. I feel better after walks, and I feel like I do a lot of really good thinking, on walks too. It's it just because I'm away from everything, like I'm not in front of a device. I don't have my phone in my hand or I probably have it like on me, but I'm not like on it. I'm not looking at something. So it allows me to just. Focus on the thing that I want to focus on instead of whatever is calling my attention at that particular time. So, you know, if you've got emails piling up, like, and you're not looking at your email, you don't know that you have emails piling up because it's not in front of you. [00:13:40] So I really do like going for walks. I do want to circle back to the mini break thing. I have really great story to share. So years ago in my former life, I sold insurance. And I was newer to the insurance company and there was a woman, there were a couple women, but there was one woman in particular at this company. [00:14:02] She hated my guts, like oh my God, she hated me so much. I think to this day she still hates me. It's funny to me. I laugh about it. Oh man, she was so mean to me. She was just nasty, like sweet to my face awful behind my back in a lot of different ways. So one time she did not think I was at my desk and I had returned to my desk and we had like little cubicle desks and she was kind of around the corner talking with another woman who didn't like me at the time, ended up liking me, but didn't like me at the time. [00:14:32] And I hear her say, " I don't even know why she has a job here. She doesn't do anything all day. All she does is walk around. She's never at her desk. She just walks around all day long and she talks to people." And it was hilarious to me, like so comically funny to me. The better part was when she turned around to walk by me and realize, because she said that like a minute earlier and walked by me and realized, "oh shit, she probably heard that because she was at the desk." [00:15:03] And she's in a way, she had a point. What she missed is the big picture. So her point was like "she walks around a lot" and I do, I have to walk around a lot. I always have to, like, even I work from home now. I'm like, let me get the dog's treat, let me get the dog's out, like I'm going to just go take a lap, I'm going to get up and go, you know, get a drink of water, or I'll make myself a juice, or a coffee sometimes, like, there's certain days, I do laundry, so like, in between things, I'm going in and doing laundry, even if I just get up, sometimes, like, I have a bathroom in my office, I don't use that bathroom, I will get up and walk across to the other side of the house to use a different bathroom, why? [00:15:42] Because it gives me a mini break. So I'm really big on taking mini breaks. I always have been. And something I learned recently, I didn't know that I was doing this, but mini breaks are so good for you because they allow you to like, just kind of decompress take a break of like. First of all, it gives your eyes a big rest because now we're no longer staring at a screen. [00:16:05] Second of all, if you get up and you're walking, now you are getting that bilateral stimulation. And you're also like getting, if you're, if you sit too long, it's just not good for your body. Like sitting too long is not good. Standing too long is not good. Walking too long is not good. So we have to find that balance. But though, for those of us, like property managers who are not out in the field, We're the ones who are like hey, maybe we're, you know, at the desk and maybe we're doing sales that a lot of times it's at a desk. Jill, get up like every so often get up, but I would get in that office. It was funny. [00:16:40] It was a three story building. We owned all three floors, well, they owned and then I would like, I would go down in the basement and like, go talk to somebody for a few minutes. Instead of calling them on the phone, I would go walk down and talk to them and get what I need and then come back up. Upstairs was the kitchen. So I would go make myself a coffee, come back down. I would walk to the other side to go to the bathroom. That way I'm giving myself a mini break. But the funny thing about this is I was the most productive agent month over month in that company in what I did, which is personal lines. [00:17:11] So they're big performer and I'm not going to mention names, but they're big performer, she was great. And she's amazing. She's so great. I came in and I blew her out of the water every single month over month. And I quote unquote did nothing. So it was funny for me because I just laughed at that. [00:17:28] I was like, "Oh, this is rich."  [00:17:30] Jason: Right. Yeah.  [00:17:31] Sarah: But I was able to outwork and outperform anybody, and I still am because my stamina is just like I have now trained my body and trained my brain. But part of doing that is taking a break. If you say Sarah, you have to sit down for the next eight hours or four hours or three hours and just sit here and focus and do work like, I can't do that. [00:17:53] I need mini breaks. So even like in between coaching calls or in between sales calls or when I was doing property management and I was doing sales calls, I wasn't sitting at my desk. I was on my phone. I only ever talk on speaker. Everybody knows this about me. I only ever talk on speaker. So I was holding my phone. [00:18:10] It's a little annoying sometimes  [00:18:12] ...holding my phone like this, but I would be up. I'd be pacing. I'd be walking around. Sometimes it was just back and forth in a room. Sometimes I'd go like in my closet and I'd come out. I'd go like down the hall. I'd come back. But I was always up walking and that gave me like a little mini break and I wasn't getting sore. [00:18:30] Like my hips get sore if I sit too long. So I think these mini breaks. There's gold in there. So make sure and if you are someone who lives and dies by your calendar, that's fine. Like at least every two hours schedule yourself like a five to ten minute mini break. Now this doesn't have to be long. [00:18:50] Sometimes people are like, "Oh, I can't take a huge break because then I'm like sacrificing time and I'm not getting enough done." You will get more done and these are mini breaks. I wasn't up like "hey, I'm going to go gallivanting for like you know, 20, 30 minutes. It's a 5 to 10 minute mini break. It gives your brain a rest. [00:19:10] It gives your eyes a rest. It gives you a chance to get up and move and you will get more done that way. Do you gallivant? I used to gallivant a lot.  [00:19:20] Jason: I don't even know what that means. I mean, I picture you like, I picture somebody like Monty Python or something. You should know that word. I've heard the word. [00:19:29] I just can't picture what you gallivanting would look like.  [00:19:33] All right. So, so what's interesting is some people say sitting is the new smoking. I don't think, I don't know, but maybe it's that bad. But I, what I do know is my Oura ring and which measures my heart rhythm and heart rate and stuff and my apple watch, which also does this stuff are constantly telling me that I need to stretch my legs or I need to stand up. [00:19:58] I get notifications. It can tell that my heart rate is being and my heart is being affected and my health is being affected when I sit too long. So there's, you know, this is a legitimate thing. So getting up and moving around, I have a standing desk and it's typically up unless Sarah's in the room.  [00:20:17] Yeah. I don't stand.  [00:20:18] Otherwise I'm sitting on a ball chair. And for those watching the video, I put this on my treadmill. I have a treadmill under my desk that I'm normally I'll walk on and I can get 10, 000 steps very easily just at my desk. And I find the days that I actually walk. I work. At the very least stand. [00:20:36] I have a lot more energy. I was really fatigued yesterday because I didn't stand or walk and I was like super tired at the end of the day. And so, one thing I want to point out is the days that I exercise and anyone that exercises consistently knows this is true, the days you exercise, you have a lot more energy. [00:20:57] It gives you a lot more in the tank and it doesn't even have to be long. It could be a seven minute workout. Google seven minute workout. It could be a 15 minute workout, which I do with my X three bar bands, which I think are really cool, or it could be going to the gym and like going to the gym after work. [00:21:16] A lot of guys will do that because it'll give them that space to become human again and get back into their body and become present and kind of work out, you know, the stress of the day, but working out is a proven phenomenal way of decreasing stress. And it gives you more time. It gives you more time back. Anytime you invest into exercise is going to give you more time back. And people that work out know this. Some of the most like effective brains that I follow in entrepreneurism are very fit. And it's been proven that when you contract muscle tissue, it pumps chemicals from your muscles that feed your bloodstream and in your brain and make you able to function more cognitively effectively. I think also the effect of discipline because it takes discipline to exercise. If you can discipline your body and discipline yourself in exercise and working out, Sarah works out, I work out multiple times a week, right? That discipline translates into business. [00:22:22] I think a lot like it's a big deal. And I've noticed that people that can focus on their body and focus on their health, their business becomes a reflection of that to some degree, and are there really fat, unhealthy, overweight people that making a lot of money? Sure. There's always exceptions. [00:22:42] However, I know that for me, I'm a lot more effective in business if I'm taking care of my health. So, and that lowers my stress. So should we talk about the idea of putting too much pressure on themselves?  [00:22:59] Sarah: Yeah, I think we could talk about that. And I think this kind of boils down to, it's like the age old problem of like, "well, I own the business and it's on my shoulders. Like I'm the one that has to do it. Or like, I can't get somebody to do that piece." Like even if people hire, they'll hire out for things, but they still hold on to things that they don't like or they really wish they could offload, but they, for whatever reason, they have this like mental roadblock and they're like, "I cannot, I can't give that to somebody else. [00:23:32] It has to be me. Like people want to talk to me. It's got to be me. Like, oh I have to know that part of the business. I have to do that part of the business." And it's complete fallacy. So you don't need to do any one particular thing in your business. You can set your business up so that you do the things that you actually like and enjoy and build the business around those things and those things might change. [00:23:58] So in the beginning, I was just talking about this on the scale call Friday, I think. So in the very beginning, when you're like a solopreneur and it's all you, yeah, everything is going to fall on your shoulders because it's just you. When you start to hire though, you can start to give away things that you really don't enjoy doing. [00:24:18] Most of the times, this is what I see people do is they're like, well, I really like this piece, so I'm going to keep that piece and I'm going to give away these other pieces. But every once in a while, I still see people that they're like, oh, well, I'll ask them like, "what do you do in your business? Like, what do you do?"  [00:24:35] And sometimes I'll get answers like, "well, I do everything. Like I do all of it. Ha." And like they laugh about it. It's not funny to me at all. That's pain That's like pain coming through and they're trying to like use humor to disguise it and That sounds pretty freaking awful. [00:24:51] Jason: Sometimes laughter is the stage Before crying, so sometimes it's the stage before crying for a lot of people they're like...  [00:24:58] Sarah: yeah, so even these people they have a team and I'm like, well, what do you do? And they're like, "well, I do everything," like yeah, but then what does your team do and they're like, "well They do these things and I'm like, and what do you do?" [00:25:09] They're like, "well, I do everything else." [00:25:11] " So do you enjoy doing everything else?" Most of the times it's, they say, "no." [00:25:16] "So then why are you continuing to do it?" And they have this idea like planted in their brain that it has to be them. And it doesn't, it does not have to be you. You do not need to put all this crazy amount of pressure on yourself to be like, it's not all you. [00:25:33] You don't need to be the face of the company. You don't just because you own it. You don't need to be the face of the company and there will be, absolutely, there will be stages in your business where you are the face of the company There will be stages in your business where you are the company. It's you're like, "well, let me talk to the leasing department... that's me. Let me talk to maintenance. That's me. Let me talk to accounting. That's me," right? But at some point those things are going to shift and you're going to keep hopefully just the things that you really enjoy doing And if it's not something you really enjoy doing, you've got to be able to offload that and trust your team to handle that. That's also going to reduce your pressure noise a lot.  [00:26:09] Jason: That's a big challenge we see it a lot. And the default for every entrepreneur is you move through the solopreneur stage, doing everything yourself. You build a team the wrong way, typically, which is you build the team based on what the business needs instead of what you need. [00:26:25] And then you're more and more miserable as the team scales and the business scales, your name is in parentheses next to every person on the org chart, because they all come to you with questions. And if you're dealing with that frustration, you really should be talking with DoorGrow and letting us help you get out of that. We're really good at helping people restructure their teams and get out of that pressure and noise. And if you're listening to this, you probably can't see it. You can't see how you're doing things wrong. You just know it doesn't feel right. You're like, "I'm wearing hats that I don't want to wear. And I have an entire team." [00:27:01] And a lot of times it's because we have some false beliefs, like "I'm the business owner. So I have to do the accounting. Or I'm the business owner. So I have to like be the person doing sales." There's nothing you have to do. If you own the business, you're king or queen, like you set the rules. [00:27:18] You can decide what you want to do. You can be the receptionist if that's what you want to be. That's your dream. You can outsource or like hire for everything else. Right. You can't see those sometimes accurately who you are and the things that you really do enjoy and what your purpose is. And so this is one of the things we help clients get really clear on and then restructuring their team so can be really helpful. [00:27:41] So related to this, a common scenario or problem is a lot of business owners put more and more pressure on themselves simply by starting more and more businesses. And this can be a big challenge, like entrepreneurs are entrepreneurs. And they're like they love starting stuff. They're like, let's start some shit. [00:28:00] They want to start more stuff all the time because starting is fun and sexy and exciting. And you can have this fantasy for the business and this new idea, and then making all that work and doing everything and all that is not so fun and exciting. So they're jumping to the next fun thing, and then they have the next thing they know, they have like nine businesses, you know? [00:28:21] Sarah: Yeah. And I think the other thing I see a lot is, especially with property management, there's a lot of crossover, right? They're like, "well, I could do property management and that goes hand in hand with real estate. And then that goes hand in hand with doing appraisals, and then that goes hand in hand doing inspections, and that goes hand in hand with insurance, and that goes hand in hand with being a notary, oh, and I could start a maintenance company, and now I could do like a cleaning company, and I can do this, and I can do this, and I can, and you and yourself. [00:28:50] Jason: Cool maintenance, roofing. Yeah.  [00:28:51] Sarah: And we've seen that, and a lot of times when we see that, It's like, it's completely premature because in order to have more than one successful business, you must first have one successful business. So you can't have a business that's like, eh, and then go, "well, I'm just going to start another successful business." [00:29:15] Well, if the first one isn't working out so well, how you do one thing is typically how you do everything. So if you have a business that isn't going super well, and then you're like, "Oh, I'm just going to start another one." Well, your other one is probably going to mirror very closely what the first one looks like. [00:29:33] Yeah. Right. So I think that's, it's like it's just like temptation and it's like opportunity and it's just because there's so much that you're like, "well, I don't need to pay somebody to clean houses. Like I could just start a company and then my company I'll pay myself." But the problem is, and I'm not saying I am like, so not saying do not start multiple businesses. [00:29:58] What I am saying is only look at starting other businesses once the main one or your first one is super solid. Like when it's running really well, it really doesn't need you. If you can go for like a month or two without really handling or touching or doing anything in that business, So if I can take you and I can pick you up and drop you off on a like desert island and you come back and your company is just fine, now you can look at starting another business. [00:30:30] That's not the case? Don't do it yet.  [00:30:33] Jason: Yeah. The company should be better than how you left it if you have a good business. Should be better. It should be growing. It should be healthy. Yeah, so we're going to wrap this up. But the first first thing I want to say related that is I've talked about the five currencies in the past. [00:30:50] The currency of focus. Which Sarah is talking about is the most important currency related to growing and scaling a business. The less you're focused on, and the less you're distracted by, the more you can help that business grow and grow faster. And so, just keep that in mind. At DoorGrow, we can help you become more of that entrepreneur that can solve all the gaps and all the problems with your one business, and it makes you a better entrepreneur for all the others. [00:31:18] We've seen that happen a lot of times with our clients. And that's our goal is to teach you to be the entrepreneur that can have the business of your dreams. The only reason you don't have it yet is you're not yet that person. So one of my mentors said, "Jason, you don't have the business of your dreams yet because you're not yet the person that can run it yet." [00:31:36] Which was a punch in the gut at the time. I was like, he's right. So, and the other thing that I've learned is that opportunity entrepreneurs, we see it everywhere. It's everywhere. "Oh, there's a problem. I could solve that. There's a problem. I could solve that. Oh, you need a pool maintenance person? Well, you could start a pool maintenance company to for property management." [00:31:56] Like you, there's a million things you could do. That doesn't mean you should. And Entrepreneurs, some of the most powerful things that we can do as an entrepreneur in focus is to just say no and turn things down and to not do things until we really get things solid, like you were talking about. So, all right. [00:32:15] So for those that have been watching us for a while or listening to the podcast for a while, I mean, I've, I talked to somebody this week that was like, "I've been listening for like three years" and it was like the first conversation I'd had with them. If you're sitting in the wings, listening to us, when is it going to be your turn? When's it going to be your turn? When do you get to be the person that gets to be the person getting these awesome results that our clients are getting? Why don't you believe you deserve this? Why are you being so hard on yourself and making things so difficult? Why don't you reach out? It's one thing, like there's some great free stuff that we give out. [00:32:56] We want to coach you. We want to mentor you. We want to help you. We want to support you in getting your business to actually become the business of your dreams. Have the day to day that you want, lower your stress, lower your pressure and noise, be more of what you are meant to be. More mom, more dad, more family, better pet owner. [00:33:17] I don't know, whatever you've got, right. Taking care of the people around you. Like we want to help you become the person you were meant to become when you started this business if you're doing it correctly and we want to help you do it correctly. So reach out to DoorGrow. Have a conversation with us. [00:33:36] If you have at least 20, 30, 50, 100 doors, we can start to help you. We can help you eliminate some of your crazy expenses, run lean. If you have 200, 400, or more doors, we know that this is a significant challenge place point for most people. They're sometimes the least profitable per unit they've ever been. [00:34:00] They're the most stressed they've ever been. They have an entire team. We can get you out of this like we can help solve this. This is a more fun problem for us to solve than even just getting doors. Getting doors is not hard. We can help you do that. For those of you that have the challenge, getting doors is no longer a challenge. [00:34:16] How do we deal with all these doors? How do we deal with all these team members? How do I become profitable? We want to help you with that. We can help you with that significantly. And if you have. 600 doors plus, you've got an awesome team, maybe even a thousand doors plus. And you're like, I really want to get more from this. [00:34:34] I want to optimize this more. I want to support my team more. I want to invest in them. I want my BDM. I want my operator to be working with DoorGrow and to take things to the next level. I want to feed into them and give them success. Then reach out to door girl. We've helped clients go from 600 to a thousand doors. [00:34:53] We've helped clients over a thousand doors, clean up stuff they should have done when they first started their business. Reach out to us. We want to help you out. There's no reason not to. Anything that you do with us. You're going to get an ROI that's far greater than our system is paying you. It's a no brainer and just goo DoorGrow. com and that's it. So anything else? All right. [00:35:18] I hate when you do that.  [00:35:19] I know but I want to give you the opportunity to have the last word But all right until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:35:26] You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:35:53] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Note: I can't seem to edit or remove the “transcript” tab. I recommend you ignore that and just look at the much higher quality, slightly cleaned up one below. Most importantly, follow Sarah on Twitter! Summary (Written by chatGPT, as you can probably tell)In this episode of Pigeon Hour host Aaron delves deep into the world of AI safety with his guest, Sarah Woodhouse. Sarah shares her unexpected journey from fearing job automation to becoming a recognized voice on AI safety Twitter. Her story starts with a simple Google search that led her down a rabbit hole of existential dread and unexpected fame on social media. As she narrates her path from lurker to influencer, Sarah reflects on the quirky dynamics of the AI safety community, her own existential crisis, and the serendipitous tweet that resonated with thousands.Aaron and Sarah's conversation takes unexpected turns, discussing everything from the peculiarities of EA rationalists to the surprisingly serious topic of shrimp welfare. They also explore the nuances of AI doom probabilities, the social dynamics of tech Twitter, and Sarah's unexpected viral fame as a tween. This episode is a rollercoaster of insights and anecdotes, perfect for anyone interested in the intersection of technology, society, and the unpredictable journey of internet fame.Topics discussedDiscussion on AI Safety and Personal Journeys:* Aaron and Sarah discuss her path to AI safety, triggered by concerns about job automation and the realization that AI could potentially replace her work.* Sarah's deep dive into AI safety started with a simple Google search, leading her to Geoffrey Hinton's alarming statements, and eventually to a broader exploration without finding reassuring consensus.* Sarah's Twitter engagement began with lurking, later evolving into active participation and gaining an audience, especially after a relatable tweet thread about an existential crisis.* Aaron remarks on the rarity of people like Sarah, who follow the AI safety rabbit hole to its depths, considering its obvious implications for various industries.AI Safety and Public Perception:* Sarah discusses her surprise at discovering the AI safety conversation happening mostly in niche circles, often with a tongue-in-cheek attitude that could seem dismissive of the serious implications of AI risks.* The discussion touches on the paradox of AI safety: it's a critically important topic, yet it often remains confined within certain intellectual circles, leading to a lack of broader public engagement and awareness.Cultural Differences and Personal Interests:* The conversation shifts to cultural differences between the UK and the US, particularly in terms of sincerity and communication styles.* Personal interests, such as theater and musicals (like "Glee"), are also discussed, revealing Sarah's background and hobbies.Effective Altruism (EA) and Rationalist Communities:* Sarah points out certain quirks of the EA and rationalist communities, such as their penchant for detailed analysis, hedging statements, and the use of probabilities in discussions.* The debate around the use of "P(Doom)" (probability of doom) in AI safety discussions is critiqued, highlighting how it can be both a serious analytical tool and a potentially alienating jargon for outsiders.Shrimp Welfare and Ethical Considerations:* A detailed discussion on shrimp welfare as an ethical consideration in effective altruism unfolds, examining the moral implications and effectiveness of focusing on animal welfare at a large scale.* Aaron defends his position on prioritizing shrimp welfare in charitable giving, based on the principles of importance, tractability, and neglectedness.Personal Decision-Making in Charitable Giving:* Strategies for personal charitable giving are explored, including setting a donation cutoff point to balance moral obligations with personal needs and aspirations.TranscriptAARON: Whatever you want. Okay. Yeah, I feel like you said this on Twitter. The obvious thing is, how did you learn about AI safety? But maybe you've already covered that. That's boring. First of all, do you want to talk about that? Because we don't have to.SARAH: I don't mind talking about that.AARON: But it's sort of your call, so whatever. I don't know. Maybe briefly, and then we can branch out?SARAH: I have a preference for people asking me things and me answering them rather than me setting the agenda. So don't ever feel bad about just asking me stuff because I prefer that.AARON: Okay, cool. But also, it feels like the kind of thing where, of course, we have AI. Everyone already knows that this is just like the voice version of these four tweets or whatever. But regardless. Yes. So, Sarah, as Pigeon Hour guest, what was your path through life to AI safety Twitter?SARAH: Well, I realized that a chatbot could very easily do my job and that my employers either hadn't noticed this or they had noticed, but they were just being polite about it and they didn't want to fire me because they're too nice. And I was like, I should find out what AI development is going to be like over the next few years so that I know if I should go and get good at some other stuff.SARAH: I just had a little innocent Google. And then within a few clicks, I'd completely doom pilled myself. I was like, we're all going to die. I think I found Geoffrey Hinton because he was on the news at the time, because he just quit his job at Google. And he was there saying things that sounded very uncertain, very alarming. And I was like, well, he's probably the pessimist, but I'm sure that there are loads of optimists to counteract that because that's how it usually goes. You find a doomer and then you find a bunch of more moderate people, and then there's some consensus in the middle that everything's basically fine.SARAH: I was like, if I just keep looking, I'll find the consensus because it's there. I'm sure it's there. So I just kept looking and looking for it. I looked for it for weeks. I just didn't find it. And then I was like, nobody knows what's going on. This seems really concerning. So then I started lurking on Twitter, and then I got familiar with all the different accounts, whatever. And then at some point, I was like, I'm going to start contributing to this conversation, but I didn't think that anybody would talk back to me. And then at some point, they started talking back to me and I was like, this is kind of weird.SARAH: And then at some point, I was having an existential crisis and I had a couple of glasses of wine or something, and I just decided to type this big, long thread. And then I went to bed. I woke up the next morning slightly grouchy and hungover. I checked my phone and there were all these people messaging me and all these people replying to my thread being like, this is so relatable. This really resonated with me. And I was like, what is going on?AARON: You were there on Twitter before that thread right? I'm pretty sure I was following you.SARAH: I think, yeah, I was there before, but no one ever really gave me any attention prior to that. I think I had a couple of tweets that blew up before that, but not to the same extent. And then after that, I think I was like, okay, so now I have an audience. When I say an audience, like, obviously a small one, but more of an audience than I've ever had before in my life. And I was like, how far can I take this?SARAH: I was a bit like, people obviously started following me because I'm freFreaking out about AI, but if I post an outfit, what's going to happen? How far can I push this posting, these fit checks? I started posting random stuff about things that were completely unrelated. I was like, oh, people are kind of here for this, too. Okay, this is weird. So now I'm just milking it for all its worth, and I really don't know why anybody's listening to me. I'm basically very confused about the whole thing.AARON: I mean, I think it's kind of weird from your perspective, or it's weird in general because there aren't that many people who just do that extremely logical thing at the beginning. I don't know, maybe it's not obvious to people in every industry or whatever that AI is potentially a big deal, but there's lots of truckers or whatever. Maybe they're not the best demographic or the most conducive demographic, like, getting on Twitter or whatever, but there's other jobs that it would make sense to look into that. It's kind of weird to me that only you followed the rabbit hole all the way down.SARAH: I know! This is what I…Because it's not that hard to complete the circle. It probably took me like a day, it took me like an afternoon to get from, I'm worried about job automation to I should stop saving for retirement. It didn't take me that long. Do you know what I mean? No one ever looks. I literally don't get it. I was talking to some people. I was talking to one of my coworkers about this the other day, and I think I came up in conversation. She was like, yeah, I'm a bit worried about AI because I heard on the radio that taxi drivers might be out of a job. That's bad. And I was like, yeah, that is bad. But do you know what else? She was like, what are the AI companies up to that we don't know about? And I was like, I mean, you can go on their website. You can just go on their website and read about how they think that their technology is an extinction risk. It's not like they're hiding. It's literally just on there and no one ever looks. It's just crazy.AARON: Yeah. Honestly, I don't even know if I was in your situation, if I would have done that. It's like, in some sense, I am surprised. It's very few people maybe like one, but at another level, it's more rationality than most humans have or something. Yeah. You regret going down that rabbit hole?SARAH: Yeah, kind of. Although I'm enjoying the Twitter thing and it's kind of fun, and it turns out there's endless comedic material that you can get out of impending doom. The whole thing is quite funny. It's not funny, but you can make it funny if you try hard enough. But, yeah, what was I going to say? I think maybe I was more primed for doom pilling than your average person because I already knew what EA was and I already knew, you know what I mean. That stuff was on my radar.AARON: That's interesting.SARAH: I think had it not been on my radar, I don't think I would have followed the pipeline all the way.AARON: Yeah. I don't know what browser you use, but it would be. And you should definitely not only do this if you actually think it would be cool or whatever, but this could be in your browser history from that day and that would be hilarious. You could remove anything you didn't want to show, but if it's like Google Chrome, they package everything into sessions. It's one browsing session and it'll have like 10,000 links.SARAH: Yeah, I think for non-sketchy reasons, I delete my Google history more regularly than that. I don't think I'd be able to find that. But I can remember the day and I can remember my anxiety levels just going up and up somewhere between 01:00 p.m. and 07:00 p.m. And by the evening I'm like, oh, my God.AARON: Oh, damn, that's wild.SARAH: It was really stressful.AARON: Yeah, I guess props for, I don't know if props…Is the right word, I guess, impressed? I'm actually somewhat surprised to hear that you said you regret it. I mean, that sucks though, I guess. I'm sorry.SARAH: If you could unknow this, would you?AARON: No, because I think it's worth maybe selfishly, but not overall because. Okay, yeah, I think that would plausibly be the selfish thing to do. Actually. No, actually, hold on. No, I actually don't think that's true. I actually think there's enough an individual can do selfishly such that it makes sense. Even the emotional turmoil.SARAH: It would depend how much you thought that you were going to personally move the needle by knowing about it. I personally don't think that I'm going to be able to do very much. I was going to tip the scales. I wouldn't selfishly unknow it and sacrifice the world. But me being not particularly informed or intelligent and not having any power, I feel like if I forgot that AI was going to end the world, it would not make much difference.AARON: You know what I mean? I agree that it's like, yes, it is unlikely for either of us to tip the scales, but.SARAH: Maybe you can't.AARON: No, actually, in terms of, yeah, I'm probably somewhat more technically knowledgeable just based on what I know about you. Maybe I'm wrong.SARAH: No, you're definitely right.AARON: It's sort of just like a probabilities thing. I do think that ‘doom' - that word - is too simplified, often too simple to capture what people really care about. But if you just want to say doom versus no doom or whatever, AI doom versus no AI doom. Maybe there's like a one in 100,000 chance that one of us tips the scales. And that's important. Maybe even, like, one in 10,000. Probably not. Probably not.SARAH: One in 10,000. Wow.AARON: But that's what people do. People vote, even though this is old 80k material I'm regurgitating because they basically want to make the case for why even if you're not. Or in some article they had from a while ago, they made a case for why doing things that are unlikely to counterfactually matter can still be amazingly good. And the classic example, just voting if you're in a tight race, say, in a swing state in the United States, and it could go either way. Yeah. It might be pretty unlikely that you are the single swing vote, but it could be one in 100,000. And that's not crazy.SARAH: It doesn't take very much effort to vote, though.AARON: Yeah, sure. But I think the core justification, also, the stakes are proportionally higher here, so maybe that accounts for some. But, yes, you're absolutely right. Definitely different amounts of effort.SARAH: Putting in any effort to saving the world from AI. I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that I'm sacrificing.AARON: I don't even know if I like. No. Maybe it doesn't feel like a sacrifice. Maybe it isn't. But I do think there's, like, a lot. There's at least something to be. I don't know if this really checks out, but I would, like, bet that it does, which is that more reasonably, at least calibrated. I wanted to say reasonably well informed. But really what it is is, like, some level of being informed and, like, some level of knowing what you don't know or whatever, and more just like, normal. Sorry. I hope normal is not like a bat. I'm saying not like tech Bros, I guess so more like non tech bros. People who are not coded as tech bros. Talking about this on a public platform just seems actually, in fact, pretty good.SARAH: As long as we like, literally just people that aren't men as well. No offense.AARON: Oh, no, totally. Yeah.SARAH: Where are all the women? There's a few.AARON: There's a few that are super. I don't know, like, leaders in some sense, like Ajeya Cotra and Katja Grace. But I think the last EA survey was a third. Or I could be butchering this or whatever. And maybe even within that category, there's some variation. I don't think it's 2%.SARAH: Okay. All right. Yeah.AARON: Like 15 or 20% which is still pretty low.SARAH: No, but that's actually better than I would have thought, I think.AARON: Also, Twitter is, of all the social media platforms, especially mail. I don't really know.SARAH: Um.AARON: I don't like Instagram, I think.SARAH: I wonder, it would be interesting to see whether or not that's much, if it's become more male dominated since Elon Musk took.AARON: It's not a huge difference, but who knows?SARAH: I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea. We'll just be interesting to know.AARON: Okay. Wait. Also, there's no scheduled time. I'm very happy to keep talking or whatever, but as soon as you want to take a break or hop off, just like. Yeah.SARAH: Oh, yeah. I'm in no rush.AARON: Okay, well, I don't know. We've talked about the two obvious candidates. Do you have a take or something? Want to get out to the world? It's not about AI or obesity or just a story you want to share.SARAH: These are my two pet subjects. I don't know anything else.AARON: I don't believe you. I know you know about house plants.SARAH: I do. A secret, which you can't tell anyone, is that I actually only know about house plants that are hard to kill, and I'm actually not very good at taking care of them.AARON: Well, I'm glad it's house plants in that case, rather than pets. Whatever.SARAH: Yeah. I mean, I have killed some sea monkeys, too, but that was a long time ago.AARON: Yes. So did I, actually.SARAH: Did you? I feel like everyone has. Everyone's got a little sea monkey graveyard in their past.AARON: New cause area.SARAH: Are there more shrimp or more sea monkeys? That's the question.AARON: I don't even know what even. I mean, are they just plankton?SARAH: No, they're not plankton.AARON: I know what sea monkeys are.SARAH: There's definitely a lot of them because they're small and insignificant.AARON: Yeah, but I also think we don't. It depends if you're talking about in the world, which I guess probably like sea monkeys or farmed for food, which is basically like. I doubt these are farmed either for food or for anything.SARAH: Yeah, no, you're probably right.AARON: Or they probably are farmed a tiny bit for this niche little.SARAH: Or they're farmed to sell in aquariums for kids.AARON: Apparently. They are a kind of shrimp, but they were bred specifically to, I don't know, be tiny or something. I'm just skimming that, Wikipedia. Here.SARAH: Sea monkeys are tiny shrimp. That is crazy.AARON: Until we get answers, tell me your life story in whatever way you want. It doesn't have to be like. I mean, hopefully not. Don't straight up lie, but wherever you want to take that.SARAH: I'm not going to lie. I'm just trying to think of ways to make it spicier because it's so average. I don't know what to say about it.AARON: Well, it's probably not that average, right? I mean, it might be average among people you happen to know.SARAH: Do you have any more specific questions?AARON: Okay, no. Yeah, hold on. I have a meta point, which is like, I think the people who are they have a thing on the top of their mind, and if I give any sort of open ended question whatsoever, they'll take it there and immediately just start giving slinging hot takes. But thenOther people, I think, this category is very EA. People who aren't, especially my sister, they're like, “No, I have nothing to talk about. I don't believe that.” But they're not, I guess, as comfortable.SARAH: No, I mean, I have. Something needs to trigger them in me. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I need an in.AARON: Well, okay, here's one. Is there anything you're like, “Maybe I'll cut this. This is kind of, like narcissistic. I don't know. But is there anything you want or curious to ask?” This does sound kind of weird. I don't know. But we can cut it if need be.SARAH: What does the looking glass in your Twitter name mean? Because I've seen a bunch of people have this, and I actually don't know what it means, but I was like, no.AARON: People ask this. I respond to a tweet that's like, “What does that like?” At least, I don't know, once every month or two. Or know basically, like Spencer Greenberg. I don't know if you're familiar with him. He's like a sort of.SARAH: I know the know.AARON: He literally just tweeted, like a couple years ago. Put this in your bio to show that you really care about finding the truth or whatever and are interested in good faith conversations. Are you familiar with the scout mindset?SARAH: Yeah.AARON: Julia Galef. Yeah. That's basically, like the short version.SARAH: Okay.AARON: I'm like, yeah, all right. And there's at least three of us who have both a magnifying glass. Yeah. And a pause thing, which is like, my tightest knit online community I guess.SARAH: I think I've followed all the pause people now. I just searched the emoji on Twitter, and I just followed everyone. Now I can't find. And I also noticed when I was doing this, that some people, if they've suspended their account or they're taking time off, then they put a pause in their thing. So I was, like, looking, and I was like, oh, these are, like, AI people. But then they were just, like, in their bio, they were, like, not tweeting until X date. This is a suspended account. And I was like, I see we have a messaging problem here. Nice. I don't know how common that actually.AARON: Was. I'm glad. That was, like, a very straightforward question. Educated the masses. Max Alexander said Glee. Is that, like, the show? You can also keep asking me questions, but again, this is like.SARAH: Wait, what did he say? Is that it? Did he just say glee? No.AARON: Not even a question mark. Just the word glee.SARAH: Oh, right. He just wants me to go off about Glee.AARON: Okay. Go off about. Wait, what kind of Glee are we? Vaguely. This is like a show or a movie or something.SARAH: Oh, my God. Have you not seen it?AARON: No. I mean, I vaguely remember, I think, watching some TV, but maybe, like, twelve years ago or something. I don't know.SARAH: I think it stopped airing in, like, maybe 2015?AARON: 16. So go off about it. I don't know what I. Yeah, I.SARAH: Don't know what to say about this.AARON: Well, why does Max think you might have a take about Glee?SARAH: I mean, I don't have a take about. Just see the thing. See? No, not even, like, I am just transparently extremely lame. And I really like cheesy. I'm like. I'm like a musical theater kid. Not even ironically. I just like show tunes. And Glee is just a show about a glee club at a high school where they sing show tunes and there's, like, petty drama, and people burst into song in the hallways, and I just think it's just the most glorious thing on Earth. That's it. There are no hot takes.AARON: Okay, well, that's cool. I don't have a lot to say, unfortunately, but.SARAH: No, that's totally fine. I feel like this is not a spicy topic for us to discuss. It's just a good time.AARON: Yeah.SARAH: Wait.AARON: Okay. Yeah. So I do listen to Hamilton on Spotify.SARAH: Okay.AARON: Yeah, that's about it.SARAH: I like Hamilton. I've seen it three times. Oh.AARON: Live or ever. Wow. Cool. Yeah, no, that's okay. Well, what do people get right or wrong about theater kids?SARAH: Oh, I don't know. I think all the stereotypes are true.AARON: I mean, that's generally true, but usually, it's either over moralized, there's like a descriptive thing that's true, but it's over moralized, or it's just exaggerated.SARAH: I mean, to put this in more context, I used to be in choir. I went every Sunday for twelve years. And then every summer we do a little summer school and we go away and put on a production. So we do a musical or something. So I have been. What have I been? I was in Guys and Dolls. I think I was just in the chorus for that. I was the reverend in Anything Goes. But he does unfortunately get kidnapped in like the first five minutes. So he's not a big presence. Oh, I've been Tweedle dumb in Alice in Wonderland. I could go on, but right now as I'm saying this, I'm looking at my notice board and I have two playbills from when I went to Broadway in April where I saw Funny Girl and Hadestown.SARAH: I went to New York.AARON: Oh, cool. Oh yeah. We can talk about when you're moving to the United States. However.SARAH: I'm not going to do that. Okay.AARON: I know. I'm joking. I mean, I don't know.SARAH: I don't think I'm going to do that. I don't know. It just seems like you guys have got a lot going on over there. It seems like things aren't quite right with you guys. Things aren't quite right with us either.AARON: No, I totally get this. I think it would be cool. But also I completely relate to not wanting to. I've lived within 10 miles of one. Not even 10 miles, 8 miles in one location. Obviously gone outside of that. But my entire life.SARAH: You've just always lived in DC.AARON: Yeah, either in DC or. Sorry. But right now in Maryland, it's like right next to DC on the Metro or at Georgia University, which is in the trying to think would I move to the UK. Like I could imagine situations that would make me move to the UK. But it would still be annoying. Kind of.SARAH: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's like they're two very similar places, but there are all these little cultural things which I feel like kind of trip you up.AARON: I don't to. Do you want to say what?SARAH: Like I think people, I just like, I don't know. I don't have that much experience because I've only been to America twice. But people seem a lot more sincere in a way that you don't really get that. Like people are just never really being upfront. And in America, I just got the impression that people just have less of a veneer up, which is probably a good thing. But it's really hard to navigate if you're not used to it or something. I don't know how to describe that.AARON: Yeah, I've definitely heard this at least. And yeah, I think it's for better and for worse.SARAH: Yeah, I think it's generally a good thing.AARON: Yeah.SARAH: But it's like there's this layer of cynicism or irony or something that is removed and then when it's not there, it's just everything feels weak. I can't describe it.AARON: This is definitely, I think, also like an EA rationalist thing. I feel like I'm pretty far on the spectrum. Towards the end of surgical niceties are fine, but I don't know, don't obscure what you really think unless it's a really good reason to or something. But it can definitely come across as being rude.SARAH: Yeah. No, but I think it's actually a good rule of thumb to obscure what you. It's good to try not to obscure what you think most of the time, probably.Ably, I don't know, but I would love to go over temporarily for like six months or something and just hang out for a bit. I think that'd be fun. I don't know if I would go back to New York again. Maybe. I like the bagels there.AARON: I should have a place. Oh yeah. Remember, I think we talked at some point. We can cut this out if you like. Don't if either of us doesn't want it in. But we discussed, oh yeah, I should be having a place. You can. I emailed the landlord like an hour before this. Hopefully, probably more than 50%. That is still an offer. Yeah, probably not for all six months, but I don't know.SARAH: I would not come and sleep on your sofa for six months. That would be definitely impolite and very weird.AARON: Yeah. I mean, my roommates would probably grumble.SARAH: Yeah. They would be like.AARON: Although I don't know. Who knows? I wouldn't be shocked if people were actually like, whatever somebody asked for as a question. This is what he said. I might also be interested in hearing how different backgrounds. Wait, sorry. This is not good grammar. Let me try to parse this. Not having a super hardcore EA AI rationalist background shape how you think or how you view AI as rationality?SARAH: Oh, that's a good question. I think it's more happening the other way around, the more I hang around in these circles. You guys are impacting how I think.AARON: It's definitely true for me as well.SARAH: Seeping into my brain and my language as well. I've started talking differently. I don't know. That's a good question, though. Yeah. One thing that I will say is that there are certain things that I find irritating about the EA way of style of doing things. I think one specific, I don't know, the kind of like hand ring about everything. And I know that this is kind of the point, right? But it's kind of like, you know, when someone's like, I want to take a stance on something, but then whenever they want to take a stance on something, they feel the need to write like a 10,000 word blog post where they're thinking about the second and order and third and fifth order effects of this thing. And maybe this thing that seems good is actually bad for this really convoluted reason. That's just so annoying.AARON: Yeah.SARAH: Also understand that maybe that is a good thing to do sometimes, but it just seems like, I don't know how anyone ever gets anywhere. It seems like everyone must be paralyzed by indecision all the time because they just can't commit to ever actually just saying anything.AARON: I think this kind of thing is really good if you're trying to give away a billion dollars. Oh yes, I do want the billion dollar grantor to be thinking through second and third order effects of how they give away their billion dollars. But also, no, I am super. The words on the tip of my tongue, not overwhelmed but intimidated when I go on the EA forum because the posts, none of them are like normal, like five paragraph essays. Some of them are like, I think one of them I looked up for fun because I was going to make a meme about it and still will. Probably was like 30,000 words or something. And even the short form posts, which really gets me kind of not even annoyed. I don't know, maybe kind of annoyed is that the short form posts, which is sort of the EA forum version of Twitter, are way too high quality, way too intimidating. And so maybe I should just suck it up and post stuff anyway more often. It just feels weird. I totally agree.SARAH: I was also talking to someone recently about how I lurked on the EA forum and less wrong for months and months and I couldn't figure out the upvoting system and I was like, am I being stupid or why are there four buttons? And I was like, well, eventually I had to ask someone because I couldn't figure it out. And then he explained it to me and I was like, that is just so unnecessary. Like, just do it.AARON: No, I do know what you mean.SARAH: I just tI think it's annoying. It pisses me off. I just feel like sometimes you don't need to add more things. Sometimes less is good. Yeah, that's my hot take. Nice things.AARON: Yeah, that's interesting.SARAH: But actually, a thing that I like that EA's do is the constant hedging and caveatting. I do find it kind of adorable. I love that because it's like you're having to constantly acknowledge that you probably didn't quite articulate what you really meant and that you're not quite making contact with reality when you're talking. So you have to clarify that you probably were imprecise when you said this thing. It's unnecessary, but it's kind of amazing.AARON: No, it's definitely. I am super guilty of this because I'll give an example in a second. I think I've been basically trained to try pretty hard, even in normal conversation with anybody, to just never say anything that's literally wrong. Or at least if I do caveat it.AARON: I was driving home, me and my parents and I, unless visited, our grandparents were driving back, and we were driving back past a cruise ship that was in a harbor. And my mom, who was driving at the time, said, “Oh, Aaron, can you see if there's anyone on there?” And I immediately responded like, “Well, there's probably at least one person.” Obviously, that's not what she meant. But that was my technical best guess. It's like, yes, there probably are people on there, even though I couldn't see anybody on the decks or in the rooms. Yeah, there's probably a maintenance guy. Felt kind of bad.SARAH: You can't technically exclude that there are, in fact, no people.AARON: Then I corrected myself. But I guess I've been trained into giving that as my first reaction.SARAH: Yeah, I love that. I think it's a waste of words, but I find it delightful.AARON: It does go too far. People should be more confident. I wish that, at least sometimes, people would say, “Epistemic status: Want to bet?” or “I am definitely right about this.” Too rarely do we hear, "I'm actually pretty confident here.SARAH: Another thing is, people are too liberal with using probabilities. The meaning of saying there is an X percent chance of something happening is getting watered down by people constantly saying things like, “I would put 30% on this claim.” Obviously, there's no rigorous method that's gone into determining why it's 30 and not 35. That's a problem and people shouldn't do that. But I kind of love it.AARON: I can defend that. People are saying upfront, “This is my best guess. But there's no rigorous methodology.” People should take their word for that. In some parts of society, it's seen as implying that a numeric probability came from a rigorous model. But if you say, “This is my best guess, but it's not formed from anything,” people should take their word for that and not refuse to accept them at face value.SARAH: But why do you have to put a number on it?AARON: It depends on what you're talking about. Sometimes probabilities are relevant and if you don't use numbers, it's easy to misinterpret. People would say, “It seems quite likely,” but what does that mean? One person might think “quite reasonably likely” means 70%, the other person thinks it means 30%. Even though it's weird to use a single number, it's less confusing.SARAH: To be fair, I get that. I've disagreed with people about what the word “unlikely” means. Someone's pulled out a scale that the government uses, or intelligence services use to determine what “unlikely” means. But everyone interprets those words differently. I see what you're saying. But then again, I think people in AI safety talking about P Doom was making people take us less seriously, especially because people's probabilities are so vibey.AARON: Some people are, but I take Paul Cristiano's word seriously.SARAH: He's a 50/50 kind of guy.AARON: Yeah, I take that pretty seriously.Obviously, it's not as simple as him having a perfect understanding of the world, even after another 10,000 hours of investigation. But it's definitely not just vibes, either.SARAH: No, I came off wrong there. I don't mean that everyone's understanding is just vibes.AARON: Yeah.SARAH: If you were looking at it from the outside, it would be really difficult to distinguish between the ones that are vibes and the ones that are rigorous, unless you carefully parsed all of it and evaluated everyone's background, or looked at the model yourself. If you're one step removed, it looks like people just spitting out random, arbitrary numbers everywhere.AARON: Yeah. There's also the question of whether P doom is too weird or silly, or if it could be easily dismissed as such.SARAH: Exactly, the moment anyone unfamiliar with this discussion sees it, they're almost definitely going to dismiss it. They won't see it as something they need to engage with.AARON: That's a very fair point. Aside from the social aspect, it's also a large oversimplification. There's a spectrum of outcomes that we lump into doom and not doom. While this binary approach can be useful at times, it's probably overdone.SARAH: Yeah, because when some people say doom, they mean everyone dies, while others mean everyone dies plus everything is terrible. And no one specifies what they mean. It is silly. But, I also find it kind of funny and I kind of love it.AARON: I'm glad there's something like that. So it's not perfect. The more straightforward thing would be to say P existential risk from AI comes to pass. That's the long version, whatever.SARAH: If I was in charge, I would probably make people stop using PDOOm. I think it's better to say it the long way around. But obviously I'm not in charge. And I think it's funny and kind of cute, so I'll keep using it.AARON: Maybe I'm willing to go along and try to start a new norm. Not spend my whole life on it, but say, I think this is bad for X, Y, and Z reasons. I'll use this other phrase instead and clarify when people ask.SARAH: You're going to need Twitter premium because you're going to need a lot more characters.AARON: I think there's a shorthand which is like PX risk or P AiX risk.SARAH: Maybe it's just the word doom that's a bit stupid.AARON: Yeah, that's a term out of the Bay Area rationalists.SARAH: But then I also think it kind of makes the whole thing seem less serious. People should be indignant to hear that this meme is being used to trade probabilities about the likelihood that they're going to die and their families are going to die. This has been an in-joke in this weird niche circle for years and they didn't know about it. I'm not saying that in a way to morally condemn people, but if you explain this to people…People just go to dinner parties in Silicon Valley and talk about this weird meme thing, and what they really mean is the ODs know everyone's going to prematurely die. People should be outraged by that, I think.AARON: I disagree that it's a joke. It is a funny phrase, but the actual thing is people really do stand by their belief.SARAH: No, I totally agree with that part. I'm not saying that people are not being serious when they give their numbers, but I feel like there's something. I don't know how to put this in words. There's something outrageous about the fact that for outsiders, this conversation has been happening for years and people have been using this tongue-in-cheek phrase to describe it, and 99.9% of people don't know that's happening. I'm not articulating this very well.AARON: I see what you're saying. I don't actually think it's like. I don't know a lot of jargon.SARAH: But when I first found out about this, I was outraged.AARON: I honestly just don't share that intuition. But that's really good.SARAH: No, I don't know how to describe this.AARON: I think I was just a little bit indignant, perhaps.SARAH: Yeah, I was indignant about it. I was like, you guys have been at social events making small talk by discussing the probability of human extinction all this time, and I didn't even know. I was like, oh, that's really messed up, guys.AARON: I feel like I'm standing by the rational tier because, it was always on. No one was stopping you from going on less wrong or whatever. It wasn't behind closed.SARAH: Yeah, but no one ever told me about it.AARON: Yeah, that's like a failure of outreach, I suppose.SARAH: Yeah. I think maybe I'm talking more about. Maybe the people that I'm mad at is the people who are actually working on capabilities and using this kind of jargon. Maybe I'm mad at those people. They're fine.AARON: Do we have more questions? I think we might have more questions. We have one more. Okay, sorry, but keep going.SARAH: No, I'm going to stop making that point now because I don't really know what I'm trying to say and I don't want to be controversial.AARON: Controversy is good for views. Not necessarily for you. No, thank you for that. Yes, that was a good point. I think it was. Maybe it was wrong. I think it seems right.SARAH: It was probably wrong.Shrimp Welfare: A Serious DiscussionAARON: I don't know what she thinks about shrimp welfare. Oh, yeah. I think it's a general question, but let's start with that. What do you think about shrimp? Well, today.SARAH: Okay. Is this an actual cause area or is this a joke about how if you extrapolate utilitarianism to its natural conclusion, you would really care about shrimp?AARON: No, there's a charity called the Shrimp Welfare Initiative or project. I think it's Shrimp Welfare Initiative. I can actually have a rant here about how it's a meme that people find amusing. It is a serious thing, but I think people like the meme more than they're willing to transfer their donations in light of it. This is kind of wrong and at least distasteful.No, but there's an actual, if you Google, Shrimp Welfare Project. Yeah, it's definitely a thing, but it's only a couple of years old. And it's also kind of a meme because it does work in both ways. It sort of shows how we're weird, but in the sense that we are willing to care about things that are very different from us. Not like we're threatening other people. That's not a good description.SARAH: Is the extreme version of this position that we should put more resources into improving the lives of shrimp than into improving the lives of people just because there are so many more shrimp? Are there people that actually believe that?AARON: Well, I believe some version of that, but it really depends on who the ‘we' is there.SARAH: Should humanity be putting more resources?AARON: No one believes that as far as I know.SARAH: Okay. Right. So what is the most extreme manifestation of the shrimp welfare position?AARON: Well, I feel like my position is kind of extreme, and I'm happy to discuss it. It's easier than speculating about what the more extreme ones are. I don't think any of them are that extreme, I guess, from my perspective, because I think I'm right.SARAH: Okay, so what do you believe?AARON: I think that most people who have already decided to donate, say $20, if they are considering where to donate it and they are better morally, it would be better if they gave it to the shrimp welfare project than if they gave it to any of the commonly cited EA organizations.SARAH: Malaria nets or whatever.AARON: Yes. I think $20 of malaria nets versus $20 of shrimp. I can easily imagine a world where it would go the other way. But given the actual situation, the $20 of shrimp is much better.SARAH: Okay. Is it just purely because there's just more shrimp? How do we know how much shrimp suffering there is in the world?AARON: No, this is an excellent question. The numbers are a key factor, but no, it's not as simple. I definitely don't think one shrimp is worth one human.SARAH: I'm assuming that it's based on the fact that there are so many more shrimp than there are people that I don't know how many shrimp there are.AARON: Yeah, that's important, but at some level, it's just the margin. What I think is that when you're donating money, you should give to wherever it does the most good, whatever that means, whatever you think that means. But let's just leave it at that. The most good is morally best at the margin, which means you're not donating where you think the world should or how you think the world should expend its trillion dollar wealth. All you're doing is adding $20 at this current level, given the actual world. And so part of it is what you just said, and also including some new research from Rethink Priorities.Measuring suffering in reasonable ranges is extremely hard to do. But I believe it's difficult to do a better job than raising priorities on that, given what I've seen. I can provide some links. There are a few things to consider here: numbers, times, and the enormity of suffering. I think there are a couple of key elements, including tractability.Are you familiar with the three-pronged concept people sometimes discuss, which encompasses tractability, and neglectedness?SARAH: Okay.AARON: Importance is essentially what we just mentioned. Huge numbers and plausible amounts of suffering. When you try to do the comparison, it seems like they're a significant concern. Tractability is another factor. I think the best estimates suggest that a one-dollar donation could save around 10,000 shrimp from a very painful death.SARAH: In that sense…AARON: You could imagine that even if there were a hundred times more shrimp than there actually are, we have direct control over how they live and die because we're farming them. The industry is not dominated by wealthy players in the United States. Many individual farmers in developing nations, if educated and provided with a more humane way of killing the shrimp, would use it. There's a lot of potential for improvement here. This is partly due to the last prong, neglectedness, which is really my focus.SARAH: You're saying no one cares about the shrimp.AARON: I'm frustrated that it's not taken seriously enough. One of the reasons why the marginal cost-effectiveness is so high is because large amounts of money are donated to well-approved organizations. But individual donors often overlook this. They ignore their marginal impact. If you want to see even a 1% shift towards shrimp welfare, the thing to do is to donate to shrimp welfare. Not donate $19 to human welfare and one dollar to shrimp welfare, which is perhaps what they think the overall portfolio should be.SARAH: Interesting. I don't have a good reason why you're wrong. It seems like you're probably right.AARON: Let me put the website in the chat. This isn't a fair comparison since it's something I know more about.SARAH: Okay.AARON: On the topic of obesity, neither of us were more informed than the other. But I could have just made stuff up or said something logically fallacious.SARAH: You could have told me that there were like 50 times the number of shrimp in the world than there really are. And I would have been like, sure, seems right.AARON: Yeah. And I don't know, if I…If I were in your position, I would say, “Oh, yeah, that sounds right.” But maybe there are other people who have looked into this way more than me that disagree, and I can get into why I think it's less true than you'd expect in some sense.SARAH: I just wonder if there's like… This is like a deeply non-EA thing to say. So I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say it, but are there not any moral reasons? Is there not any good moral philosophy behind just caring more about your own species than other species? If you're sorry, but that's probably not right, is it? There's probably no way to actually morally justify that, but it seems like it feels intuitively wrong. If you've got $20 to be donating 19 of them to shrimp and one to children with malaria, that feels like there should be something wrong with that, but I can't tell you what it is.AARON: Yeah, no, there is something wrong, which is that you should donate all 20 because they're acting on the margin, for one thing. I do think that doesn't check out morally, but I think basically me and everybody I know in terms of real life or whatever, I do just care way more about humans. I don't know, for at least the people that it's hard to formalize or specify what you mean by caring about or something. But, yeah, I think you can definitely basically just be a normal human who basically cares a lot about other humans. And still that's not like, negated by changing your $20 donation or whatever. Especially because there's nothing else that I do for shrimp. I think you should be like a kind person or something. I'm like an honest person, I think. Yeah, people should be nice to other humans. I mean, you should be nice in the sense of not beating them. But if you see a pigeon on the street, you don't need to say hi or whatever, give it a pet, because. I don't know. But yeah, you should be basically like, nice.SARAH: You don't stop to say hi to every pigeon that you see on the way to anywhere.AARON: I do, but I know most normal people don't.SARAH: This is why I'm so late to everything, because I have to do it. I have to stop for every single one. No exceptions.AARON: Yeah. Or how I think about it is sort of like a little bit of compartmentalization, which I think is like… Which is just sort of like a way to function normally and also sort of do what you think really checks out at the end of the day, just like, okay, 99% of the time I'm going to just be like a normal person who doesn't care about shrimp. Maybe I'll refrain from eating them. But actually, even that is like, I could totally see a person just still eating them and then doing this. But then during the 1% of the time where you're deciding how to give money away and none of those, the beneficiaries are going to be totally out of sight either way. This is like a neutral point, I guess, but it's still worth saying, yeah, then you can be like a hardcore effective altruist or whatever and then give your money to the shrimp people.SARAH: Do you have this set up as like a recurring donation?AARON: Oh, no. Everybody should call me out as a hypocrite because I haven't donated much money, but I'm trying to figure out actually, given that I haven't had a stable income ever. And maybe, hopefully I will soon, actually. But even then, it's still a part-time thing. I haven't been able to do sort of standard 10% or more thing, and I'm trying to figure out what the best thing to do or how to balance, I guess, not luxury, not like consumption on things that I… Well, to some extent, yeah. Maybe I'm just selfish by sometimes getting an Uber. That's totally true. I think I'm just a hypocrite in that respect. But mostly I think the trade-off is between saving, investing, and giving. Beast of the money that I have saved up and past things. So this is all sort of a defense of why I don't have a recurring donation going on.SARAH: I'm not asking you to defend yourself because I do not do that either.AARON: I think if I was making enough money that I could give away $10,000 a year and plan on doing that indefinitely, I would be unlikely to set up a recurring donation. What I would really want to do is once or twice a year, really try to prioritize deciding on how to give it away rather than making it the default. This has a real cost for charities. If you set up a recurring donation, they have more certainty in some sense of their future cash flow. But that's only good to do if you're really confident that you're going to want to keep giving there in the future. I could learn new information that says something else is better. So I don't think I would do that.SARAH: Now I'm just thinking about how many shrimp did you say it was per dollar?AARON: Don't quote me. I didn't say an actual thing.SARAH: It was like some big number. Right. Because I just feel like that's such a brainworm. Imagine if you let that actually get in your head and then every time you spend some unnecessary amount of money on something you don't really need, you think about how many shrimp you just killed by getting an Uber or buying lunch out. That is so stressful. I think I'm going to try not to think about that.AARON: I don't mean to belittle this. This is like a core, I think you're new to EA type of thinking. It's super natural and also troubling when you first come upon it. Do you want me to talk about how I, or other people deal with that or take action?SARAH: Yeah, tell me how to get the shrimp off my conscience.AARON: Well, for one thing, you don't want to totally do that. But I think the main thing is that the salience of things like this just decreases over time. I would be very surprised if, even if you're still very engaged in the EA adjacent communities or EA itself in five years, that it would be as emotionally potent. Brains make things less important over time. But I think the thing to do is basically to compartmentalize in a sort of weird sense. Decide how much you're willing to donate. And it might be hard to do that, but that is sort of a process. Then you have that chunk of money and you try to give it away the best you can under whatever you think the best ethics are. But then on the daily, you have this other set pot of money. You just are a normal person. You spend it as you wish. You don't think about it unless you try not to. And maybe if you notice that you might even have leftover money, then you can donate the rest of it. But I really do think picking how much to give should sort of be its own project. And then you have a pile of money you can be a hardcore EA about.SARAH: So you pick a cut off point and then you don't agonize over anything over and above that.AARON: Yeah. And then people, I mean, the hard part is that if somebody says their cut off point is like 1% of their income and they're making like $200,000, I don't know. Maybe their cut off point should be higher. So there is a debate. It depends on that person's specific situation. Maybe if they have a kid or some super expensive disease, it's a different story. If you're just a random guy making $200,000, I think you should give more.SARAH: Maybe you should be giving away enough to feel the pinch. Well, not even that. I don't think I'm going to do that. This is something that I do actually want to do at some point, but I need to think about it more and maybe get a better job.AARON: Another thing is, if you're wanting to earn to give as a path to impact, you could think and strive pretty hard. Maybe talk to people and choose your education or professional development opportunities carefully to see if you can get a better paying job. That's just much more important than changing how much you give from 10% to 11% or something. You should have this macro level optimization. How can I have more money to spend? Let me spend, like, I don't know, depends what life stage you are, but if you had just graduated college or maybe say you're a junior in college or something. It could make sense to spend a good amount of time figuring out what that path might look like.AARON: I'm a huge hypocrite because I definitely haven't done all this nearly as much as I should, but I still endorse it.SARAH: Yeah, I think it's fine to say what you endorse doing in an ideal world, even if you're not doing that, that's fine.AARON: For anybody listening, I tweeted a while ago, asking if anyone has resources on how to think about giving away wealth. I'm not very wealthy but have some amount of savings. It's more than I really need. At the same time, maybe I should be investing it because EA orgs don't feel like, or they think they can't invest it because there's potentially a lot of blowback if they make poor investments, even though it would be higher expected value.There's also the question of, okay, having some amount of savings allows me to take higher, potentially somewhat higher risk, but higher value opportunities because I have a cushion. But I'm very confused about how to give away what I should do here. People should DM me on Twitter or anywhere they have ideas.SARAH: I think you should calculate how much you need to cover your very basic needs. Maybe you should work out, say, if you were working 40 hours a week in a minimum wage job, like how much would you make then? And then you should keep that for yourself. And then the rest should definitely all go to the shrimp. Every single penny. All of it.AARON: This is pretty plausible. Just to make it more complicated, there's also the thing that I feel like my estimates or my best guesses of the best charities to give to over time has changed. And so there's like two competing forces. One is that I might get wiser and more knowledgeable as time goes on. The other one is that in general, giving now is better than giving later. All else equal, because I think for a couple of reasons, the main one just being that the charities don't know that you're going to give later.AARON: So it's like they can plan for the future much better if they get money now. And also there's just higher leverage opportunities or higher value per dollar opportunities now in general than there will be later for a couple of reasons I don't really need to. This is what makes it really complicated. So I've donated in the past to places that I don't think, or I don't think even at the time were the best to. So then there's a question of like, okay, how long do I save this money? Do I sit on it for months until I'm pretty confident, like a year.AARON: I do think that probably over the course of zero to five years or something, becoming more confident or changing your mind is like the stronger effect than how much good you give to the, or how much better it is for the charities to give now instead of later. But also that's weird because you're never committing at all.Sometimes you might decide to give it away, and maybe you won't. Maybe at that time you're like, “Oh, that's what I want. A car, I have a house, whatever.” It's less salient or something. Maybe something bad happened with EA and you no longer identify that way. Yeah, there's a lot of really thorny considerations. Sorry, I'm talking way too much.SARAH: Long, are you factoring AI timelines into this?AARON: That makes it even more sketchy. But that could also go both ways. On one hand, you have the fact that if you don't give away your money now and you die with it, it's never going to do any good. The other thing is that it might be that especially high leverage opportunities come in the future or something potentially you need, I don't know, whatever I can imagine I could make something up about. OpenPhil needs as much money as it can get to do X, Y and Z. It's really important right now, but I won't know that until a few years down the line. So just like everything else, it doesn't neatly wash out.SARAH: What do you think the AGI is going to do to the shrimp? I reckon it's probably pretty neat, like one shrimp per paperclip. Maybe you could get more. I wonder what the sort of shrimp to paperclip conversion rate is.AARON: Has anyone looked into that morally? I think like one to zero. I don't think in terms of money. You could definitely price that. I have no idea.SARAH: I don't know. Maybe I'm not taking this as seriously as I should be because I'm.AARON: No, I mean, humor is good. When people are giving away money or deciding what to do, they should be serious. But joking and humor is good. Sorry, go ahead.SARAH: No, you go ahead.AARON: I had a half-baked idea. At EA Global, they should have a comedy show where people roast everybody, but it's a fundraiser. You have to pay to get 100 people to attend. They have a bidding contest to get into the comedy show. That was my original idea. Or they could just have a normal comedy show. I think that'd be cool.SARAH: Actually, I think that's a good idea because you guys are funny. There is a lot of wit on this side of Twitter. I'm impressed.AARON: I agree.SARAH: So I think that's a very good idea.AARON: Okay. Dear Events team: hire Aaron Bergman, professional comedian.SARAH: You can just give them your Twitter as a source for how funny you are, and that clearly qualifies you to set this up. I love it.AARON: This is not important or related to anything, but I used to be a good juggler for entertainment purposes. I have this video. Maybe I should make sure the world can see it. It's like a talent show. So maybe I can do that instead.SARAH: Juggling. You definitely should make sure the world has access to this footage.AARON: It had more views than I expected. It wasn't five views. It was 90 or something, which is still nothing.SARAH: I can tell you a secret right now if you want. That relates to Max asking in the chat about glee.AARON: Yes.SARAH: This bit will also have to edit out, but me having a public meltdown over AI was the second time that I've ever blown up on the Internet. The first time being. I can't believe I'm telling you this. I think I'm delirious right now. Were you ever in any fandoms, as a teenager?AARON: No.SARAH: Okay. Were you ever on Tumblr?AARON: No. I sort of know what the cultural vibes were. I sort of know what you're referring to. There are people who like Harry Potter stuff and bands, like Kpop stuff like that.SARAH: So people would make these fan videos where they'd take clips from TV shows and then they edit them together to music. Sometimes people would edit the clips to make it look like something had happened in the plot of the show that hadn't actually happened. For example, say, what if X character had died? And then you edit the clips together to try and make it look like they've died. And you put a sad song, how to save a life by the fray or something, over the top. And then you put it on YouTube.AARON: Sorry, tell me what…"Hat I should search or just send the link here. I'm sending my link.SARAH: Oh, no, this doesn't exist anymore. It does not exist anymore. Right? So, say if you're, like, eleven or twelve years old and you do this, and you don't even have a mechanism to download videos because you don't know how to do technology. Instead, you take your little iPod touch and you just play a YouTube video on your screen, and you literally just film the screen with your iPod touch, and that's how you're getting the clips. It's kind of shaky because you're holding the camera anyway.SARAH: Then you edit together on the iMovie app of your iPod touch, and then you put it on the Internet, and then you just forget about it. You forget about it. Two years later, you're like, oh, I wonder what happened to that YouTube account? And you log in and this little video that you've made with edited clips that you've filmed off the screen of your laptop to ‘How To Save Life' by The Fray with clips from Glee in it, has nearly half a million views.AARON: Nice. Love it.SARAH: Embarrassing because this is like, two years later. And then all the comments were like, oh, my God, this was so moving. This made me cry. And then obviously, some of them were hating and being like, do you not even know how to download video clips? Like, what? And then you're so embarrassed.AARON: I could totally seem it. Creative, but only a reasonable solution. Yeah.SARAH: So that's my story of how I went viral when I was like, twelve.AARON: It must have been kind of overwhelming.SARAH: Yeah, it was a bit. And you can tell that my time, it's like 20 to eleven at night, and now I'm starting to really go off on one and talk about weird things.AARON: Like an hour. So, yeah, we can wrap up. And I always say this, but it's actually true. Which is that low standard, like, low stakes or low threshold. Low bar for doing that in recording some of the time.SARAH: Yeah, probably. We'll have to get rid of the part about how I went viral on YouTube when I was twelve. I'll sleep on that.AARON: Don't worry. I'll send the transcription at some point soon.SARAH: Yeah, cool.AARON: Okay, lovely. Thank you for staying up late into the night for this.SARAH: It's not that late into the night. I'm just like, lame and go to bed early.AARON: Okay, cool. Yeah, I know. Yeah, for sure. All right, bye. Get full access to Aaron's Blog at www.aaronbergman.net/subscribe

Today I'm speaking to Sarah Sproule (she/them), a sex educator, an occupational therapist, as well as a mother of three teens. Sarah uses their skills to ensure that every parent and caring adult knows how to build a deeper connection with their growing kids, and believes that no child should ever feel alone and unable to reach out for help with their body, their boundaries, or their needs. Or their knowledge about sexuality.In this episode, we are talking about ‘sensitive things' with our kids, plus reclaiming the ‘C word'. We dive into the following topics;* The ‘invisible influence of normal'* Showing kids we're a trusted person to talk to about sensitive things* Why we don't want to wait until sex ed classes to start talking about sex* Teaching kids about body boundaries* Answering your Qs about: * How to explain to kids why you do some things in private?* 4 year olds asking BIG questions you're not sure they're ready for* 3 year olds who are resistant to challenging gender stereotypes* How to support your child when someone is asking invasive questions* Plus Sarah shares the unknown history of the C word!Find out more about Sarah's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:Sarah Sproule: I drew analogies between talking about sensitive things and other parts of parenting. So, I don't know a single other parent who waited for their child to ask them for a stem of broccoli before they gave it to them. Right? And we know that broccoli's really great. I don't know a parent who waited for their child to ask them, Can you please show me how to cross the road? Because I want to stay safe. Like, there are so many things we do, we take initiative for, because we know it's important for the health and safety and joy of our child. INTROLaura Thomas: Welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we are talking about appetite, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today, I'm talking to Sarah Sproule. Sarah, who uses she/them pronouns, is a sex educator, an occupational therapist, as well as a mother of three teens.Sarah uses their skills to ensure that every parent and caring adult knows how to build a deeper connection with their growing kids. She believes that no child should ever feel alone and unable to reach out for help with their body, their boundaries, or their needs. Or their knowledge about sexuality.In this conversation, we talk about what Sarah calls the ‘invisible influence of normal'; all the things, spoken and unspoken, that shape how we think about bodies, sex, pleasure, periods, and more. And we talk about why it's important to approach these conversations with our kids early and in a non-judgmental way that prioritises connection and helps inoculate them against body shame.We talk about supporting kids to trust their body boundaries and how that can help them use their voice when something doesn't feel right. Plus we answer your questions like how to teach kids that maybe it's best not to touch their penis at the dinner table, without inadvertently shrouding them in shame.Obviously this is a conversation about sensitive topics to do with sex, and at one point we do mention rape and other forms of violence. We also use the C word quite liberally towards the end, which Sarah and I are comfortable with, but we understand that it may not be for everyone. So all of that is to say, listen at your discretion and take care of yourself. I will say, though, that Sarah is extremely compassionate and thoughtful in how she approaches these topics. So I hope you'll find this to be a safe and nourishing conversation. Just before we get to Sarah, I wanted to tell you real quick about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter and community and whole wider universe.So until the end of September, I'm running a 15% off sale on the cost of annual memberships. So instead of paying £50 a year, you would pay £42.50 and that gets you access to the monthly Dear Laura columns where I answer your questions. It gets you access to the whole CIHAS archive, it gives you commenting privileges, plus weekly discussion threads tackling the big issues like…how clean is your fridge? And who are you dressing for on the school run? It's a really welcoming space where we learn from each other, share with folks who have a similar world view to us, and we have a lot of fun. And of course it's a completely diet, body shame-free space.  I wanted to quickly share what one CIHAS reader said recently. They shared this review saying: “Laura's Substack is a lifeline in a world where diet culture and fatphobia is pervasive in all aspects of our lives including how we feed our children. Every time I start to worry about my toddlers eating and that internalised diet culture mentality starts bubbling up, it's Laura's voice telling me that it's all going to be okay. Through her invaluable work on CIHAS, she's genuinely keeping me sane and empowering me to navigate feeding my child and making the right decisions for my family. The paid subscription is more than worth it. Thanks, Laura.” Well, thank you for that really sweet review. And like I said, we're running a sale for the rest of September and you can sign up at laurathomas.substack.com and I'll drop the link in the show notes so you can find it really easily. And by becoming a paid subscriber, not only do you get the sweet perks that I mentioned earlier, but more importantly, your contributions help make this work sustainable. All right, team, let's get to today's guest. Here's Sarah.  MAIN EPISODEHey, Sarah, can you start by telling us a little bit about you and the work that you do, please? Sarah: I support parents and other adults who are raising children to speak about sensitive things. So that's a euphemism for puberty, genitals, babies, growing up, sex, relationships, all that sort of stuff that might seem a little bit like…eeeeh!...when you think about having conversations about that with kids.And that work is important to me. I'm an occupational therapist, but I do that work because I was one of the kids that would have really benefited from way more open and sort of practical conversations about all that sort of stuff. My mum and dad were missionaries and we grew up in Nigeria for most of my teens, but yeah, even though mum was a nurse and she would have told me how my brother was born and all the bits and bobs and… Laura: Yeah, the gory details.Sarah: Yeah. I think because I had undiagnosed ADHD particularly, it meant that if things weren't repeated and part of everyday life, I just forgot. So I got to be nine years old and I thought sperm flew through the air to get to the egg. So I didn't want the children that I was raising to have that same experience.And so here we are now, Masters in Sexuality Studies. I've been doing this now for a few years, and it just feels like the more I do it, the more I realised that this is the exact sort of work that…all my experiences growing up and being a neurodiverse person…it's all set me up for this. So that's a great sense of joy to feel so aligned with work and with who I am as a person.Laura: For sure. And thank you for sort of walking us through that transition from OT to sexuality studies to what you're doing now. And I think it's so interesting that your background is in OT because – and that's occupational therapy for anyone who isn't familiar with that acronym – because it really shines through in the work that you do.And I think that's the only other allied health professionals, I think, would see that, but definitely you can see the echoes of that. And I think it's such a great foundation for the more coaching-centered work that you're doing. So you sort of alluded to this in what you were saying there, but you talk a lot about this concept of the ‘invisible influence of normal'. Can you unpack that a bit more for us and tell us what that is? Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. So wherever we live, in whatever sort of country or city or family, there are influences on us from those cultures, whether it's family culture, city culture, farm culture, Irish culture, Australian culture, whatever. Those influences or those…the messages we're given subtly show us what normal is.So normal could be being married with children, for example, and not that anyone might have ever said that to us, what's normal is to get married and have kids, but maybe it's an assumption in the way people ask young children or growing people questions about what they want to do in the future, how many kids they want. Like if someone asked someone how many kids you want, there's an invisible assumption there that they want children. So this invisible influence of normal impacts us, not just when we're growing up, but it impacts adults who are raising children as well, because if we lived in a family that didn't use penis and vulva or clitoris as words for genitals with children, then we're going to grow up into adults who…the invisible influence of normal will have said, sort of shaped, you don't use those words with kids. And that's just normal. That's what sort of we grew up to expect. And that's just one example. There are lots of other ways like what is normal just gets sort of embedded into our consciousness, maybe without even our own awareness. So a lot of the times this “normal idea of normal” – and I'm using my fingers in air quotes – we might not realise that it's impacting how we speak to the small people in our life until we have a particular experience. Like it could be something like having a conversation with another parent at the school gate or in childcare, where they speak about, say, walking around nude in their home and all of a sudden you realise, what? Some people think it's normal or okay to walk around nude in front of their kids at home. What? And all of a sudden everything sort of shakes a bit, you know, in our world view. Laura: What I'm hearing you say is that this invisible influence of normal, it shapes our ideas of what is acceptable, what is taboo.And ultimately, I think it shapes whether we have a shame response to something, or whether we can talk openly and transparently about, you know, like you say, sensitive subjects without them becoming, yeah, something that we have to hide or feel shame about. Is that a fair way of kind of putting it? , Sarah: Yeah, that's a beautiful way of saying it.So this story came into my mind and I wanted to share it. So picture me 13 years ago. And I have like a five year old, a three year old and a one year old and it's Saturday. So if any of the people listening are anything like us…Saturdays, we're like, we're just trying to eke out every single minute of sleep, or at least being horizontal in the bed that we can manage, you know, and so our three kids playing around the room, the doors locked so that they can't get into trouble. And you can hear this sort of splashing in the bathroom and I get out of bed and I go in and have a look. There's a five year old has taken some condoms out of the bedside drawer – because condoms were our contraceptive method of choice at the time. And opened up the packet, given one to her brother, one for herself, and they've got them in the basin, they're trying to fill them up like water balloons. And I'm at the door and I'm looking in the door and, like, my breath catches in my throat….cause, like, your kids are touching something that is related to penises.  Laura: Oh it's so dirty! Sarah: So it's sort of like, this is the first time I ever thought of anything related to this work, right? And I call out to my partner. I go, John, the, the kids are playing with condoms…and this is my really traditional Irish Catholic husband sort of says, Yeah, so what?  I'm like, they're condoms! And he goes, So? And it was in that moment that I was like, Oh, hang on a minute. So for me, that was a moment when that invisible influence became visible. It was like, yeah, if he thinks this and I don't think that, what's going on here, what's…what's happening? And so it was a really clear moment in time for me.I was like. Oh, there are things at play here. There's, there is influences at play here that I didn't even realise. Um, and I think it was particularly clear because in my mind, John was sort of very traditional and I was like the uber progressive Australian parent living in Ireland. So it was quite a shock.And that's where this whole process for me of really looking and seeing what I thought was right that was unexamined and how that was really leading me down the same path to treat my kids the same way that I was treated, which was…yes, we can answer questions, but at the end of the day, sex and things related to adults, like life, children had to be protected against because it is in some way dangerous and sort of wrong. And of course there are lots of things about adult sexuality that, yes, are not appropriate for children, but there are a whole stinking lot of things that families can talk about in a way that is educational and supportive and kind and open and connecting. And when we don't allow ourselves access to those topics of conversation, we're losing the chance, not just to inform our children. That, to me, in my work is a secondary thing. The information exchange, that's a secondary thing. What's more important is that we are creating moments over and over again, where we prove and show ourselves to be someone, an adult, a trusted adult, who can talk about pretty much anything and everything. And we do that with understanding and we do it in a way that is respectful of our children and their ability to understand stuff. When that shift happens in an adult's mind that they realise that talking about sensitive things is a bridge over which they build a connection with their child and which will last a lifetime because it will last a lifetime, then all of a sudden it's like, Oh, okay. So this might be awkward and I might not know how to do it, but God damn it. I really want to try because I understand what is possible if I make this effort.  Laura: Yeah, and again, what I'm hearing you say is that you're prioritising the relationship that you have with your child over and above your own comfort and probably other people's comfort, people around you, maybe grandparents, maybe other parents at the school, teachers even, that your, your child might come into contact with. And that kind of leads me to a question that I, I was thinking about for you, which was around why it is so important for us, as parents, as carers, as guardians, to be the people that are starting these conversations with our children, these, like you say, sensitive conversations, and that could, I think, range from calling genitals by their correct names all the way through to puberty and periods.Why does it feel so important for it to be coming from us rather than, you know, waiting until Sex Ed at school or waiting until they hear something in the playground? Sarah: Again, it's about creating connection. I think about it from the perspective of how many years an adult, either a parent or a caregiver in some other capacity, is with their child or their young person, right?So I will often say that, okay, so If our kids stay with us until they're 23, just pick a number. You've got 23 years of meals and negotiations about bathroom time and conversations about going out with friends and all that, where your child has the opportunity to come to tell you something that's difficult or worrying for them or where they can ask you a question that is going to make the difference between them being able to speak up for themselves in a tricky situation or not. So your child is around you lots and lots and lots. Whereas if they first hear something sensitive, like how babies are made or what sex actually is from a teacher at school, that teacher may only be there for, say, 10 months of their life and then they're gone. And so when your child is thinking about the memories of how they learned particular things, a teacher's face will come up, but your face won't. And what that means is when they have a question or a concern or something tough is happening in their world, there's not that sort of memory that connects you and sensitive, awkward, unpleasant, difficult, concerning, but also exciting life events in the head, right? So it's very much about, again, how can we build that connection? How can we demonstrate to a child or a young person that we talk about this stuff. I drew analogies between talking about sensitive things and other parts of parenting. So I don't know a single other parent who waited for their child to ask them for a stem of broccoli before they gave it to them.  And we know that broccoli is really great. I don't know a parent who waited for their child to ask them, can you please show me how to cross the road, because I want to stay safe. Like, there are so many things we do that we take initiative for because we know it's important for the health and safety and joy of our child.And this area of being human, this developing sexual self is no different when you sort of look at it like that. Most of the time people go, oh yeah, I see what you're saying there, I wouldn't wait for my child to ask me to send them to swimming lessons. I mean, some of us might've done that before our child was even one. So it's far more about realising that our parenting approach, if it's different, only in the sensitive conversation section, then that's showing us that there's something behind that, that needs to be examined so that we can show up for our child in the best way. Laura: If you think about it from the perspective of, you know, like a, I don't know, a seven year old saying to another seven year old in the playground, oh duh duh duh, sex, penis, vulva, and that's complete news to your seven year old. I can imagine that that would be attached to, again, shame, embarrassment, of not knowing that information or that completely, like, coming out of the blue, versus if you've already maybe laid some foundations and some groundwork, then your child might have the language to be like…Or maybe they don't have necessarily, like, they can't explain all the ins and outs of it, but they can be like, oh, yeah, that's something I've heard of, and maybe I can go home to this trusted person and get some more details or ask some more questions. I suppose that's the kind of, I would imagine, you know, the ideal way that that scenario plays out rather than a child who just feels so overcome by shame and embarrassment that they don't have anywhere to go with that information.Sarah: Absolutely. And I mean, that scenario that you've pictured, that's probably actually best case scenario for a child that doesn't know anything. A more problematic scenario might be where a child tells another child something that's just completely and utterly wrong. Like one of my kids came home from school, I think they were probably 10, and he came home and he said, mum, Michael at school told us that rape means having sex with someone and then killing them.And I was like, Oh, that's not right, is it? Because we'd had those conversations. So it's not just about setting your child up to not be surprised by things, but actually if you've got there first with the accurate information, inaccurate stuff tends to like, they don't grab onto it and go, Oh, okay.Because…you know, think about that. It's quite damaging for a child or a young person to think that rape is having sex with someone and then killing them because then they don't understand what rape really is, you know, and so there's all sorts of complexity and difficulty that sort of arise from that.And, and I imagine that any…well, I would hope that any young person would go through the education system and very quickly get the correct definition given to them at some point in the curriculum, but nevertheless. It's not a great introduction if they're getting inaccurate information from a peer.Laura: Yeah, because you're completely missing the whole, you know, really important opportunity to talk about consent.And so speaking of consent, I wanted to – and maybe this will help us take some of these more abstract concepts and put them into more concrete terms, but something that I've noticed since becoming a parent is how entitled people feel to kids' bodies, you know, whether it's hugs or kisses or touching them in some way.Like, I was with my three year old the other day and someone from their pre-school, a teacher, ran up behind them and picked them up and scooped them up, and it scared the shit out of me, never mind my three year old. And of course it was coming from a well intentioned, loving place, because I know that they have a good relationship, but it feels like such a tricky one to navigate as a parent.And I have a lot of thoughts about this. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how we begin to teach kids about their body boundaries and what is okay and not okay in terms of people accessing their bodies and, and talking about who they share their bodies with and in what capacity. Sarah: The best way to learn things is through experience.So we could spend, you know, all day, every day saying to our child, you know, your body, your choice, you get to decide what's done to your body. But if we don't create an environment at home where that is lived rather than just spoken, then that makes it difficult. So children who – and I was one of these kids, actually – children who their voices aren't heard, we – I'm going to say, we – we grow up, we lose sense of what our truth is, right? So here's something that I've been thinking about lately. One of the adults in my community asked a question about school refusal. In my world, it's ‘school can't' or ‘school avoidance'. If a child is…said we just have to go to school anyway. You just have to go. That's what we do. We have to go. The message there is it doesn't matter how you feel. There are some things that just have to be done because it's always been done like that, right? You can imagine that if that model is placed on a relationship and our child grows up to be a young adult and is in a relationship with someone who is very clear on the way things should be. So for example, I had a relationship for a time with a person and, in the process of negotiating our physical intimacy, I remember an interaction where I said, we'll need some lube. And this person says, Oh no, we don't need lube. And, now, it was a big deal for me to even say we need lube, but the other person being so clear, like we don't need it. I just completely, like, shut down. That was it. Okay, well then that must be true because what the other person is saying, which is opposite to me must be true because that was something that was demonstrated over and over and over again in my growing up. And I'm bringing up school refusal because it's so…it's really difficult. It presses a lot of buttons in an adult, you know, a child who doesn't want to go to school. That's probably one of the more complicated places where respecting our child's voice and their deep inner knowing of what is right for them is going to be hard, whereas maybe a little bit easier in, if it was, do you want to go to the beach or do you want to, you know, go over to Jimmy's house and jump on his trampoline. Like it won't matter so much what our child says, if they say jump on the trampoline and we would have preferred to go to the beach, we're like, oh, we'll go and jump on the trampoline. But, so there's sort of like a, you know, like a continuum of the places in raising children where it's easier to respect who they are and their interests and what they want, versus the ones that are more difficult. And oftentimes the ones that are more difficult will be the ones where it puts us, as the adult, in a position where we have to go against someone in authority, or someone whose opinion we really value and we're concerned about their response when we're sort of advocating for our child.So it's no easy thing, but it really is about your child's experience of being heard, seen, believed, honoured. Yeah.Laura:  Yeah. You remind me a lot of a conversation I had with the psychologist, Hillary McBride, who is author of the book Wisdom of Your Body, and she talks a lot about embodiment, and we had a conversation about children's embodiment, and it was, you know, there, there are situations, of course, where we can't let our kids stay home because we have to go to work and we don't have any other form of childcare. As much as we would love to stay home with them all day and to let them rest and get all the things that they need, but again, late stage capitalism doesn't allow that. One of the things that she pulled out was just this idea that, even when we have to hold a boundary with our child, that we believe their experience, that we trust them and that we kind of, yeah, validate, I think, their experience because that will enable them to hold on to that seed of being able to trust their own embodied wisdom. You're nodding away there. I don't know if you have anything else that you would like to add to that.  Sarah: Yeah. So in my world, sometimes parents will say, yeah, but like consent is all very well, but what about, I've got a two year old who doesn't want to get into their car seat and we were going to wherever we're going and they have to be in the car seat.I'm like, yeah, yes, they do absolutely have to be in the car seat. And so in my world, I would be talking about informed consent versus like consent. And so a two year old doesn't have enough information and understanding about the implications for what they want to do. They don't understand that that puts them in danger.And so understanding that, while a two year old is very sort of clear on what they need, we have more information. That doesn't mean what they need is wrong. It just means we have more information and we need to facilitate sort of understanding, and that can be really hard when your two year old is doing the banana body and just, there's no way you can get the seatbelt on, you know?And so oftentimes it's about creating a culture when that clash of needs is not happening. So when your two year old is screaming, saying no, about getting in the seat, that's not the time to sit down and explain various things, but maybe there's another time the following day. Where it's possible to say, you know, I love you and my job is to keep you safe.And let's think of all the ways you need to be kept safe, or some of the ways. And you can list off, you know, electricity and fire and other things and then say, and did you know, cars are really dangerous if we don't have seatbelts on, just very like, little drops of knowledge and then I suppose that we can set our two year old up for success.And that could look like…like kids do really well with context, connection and choice, right? So getting to the car, setting context, in half an hour, we're going to need to get in the car. What does your body need to do before we do that? Do you want to run around? What sort of, what busyness? Because you remember, we're going to have to sit in the seat with the belt on.So context, connection, getting down and showing them that you see them. I love you. And I know that your body has a hard time being in the car seat. What can I do to help you out? Like letting them know, we see them, we understand what their experience is like. And then the choice is really offering as much choice as possible.So the seatbelt isn't a non-negotiable thing, but maybe there's other choices. Would you like to take a toy? Or would you like to choose the music? Or would you like to have a special blankie or like try and find all the ways that if your kid, the feeling of at least a little bit of autonomy so that you can keep them safe without too much conflict.And I…like I had three two year olds, I know it's not easy and we're all strapped for time. But if you sort of take a step back and think about it in the broader context, it's not just about that moment where you're trying to put them into the car. Context, connection, and choice are one of those things that's going to help you help your kid. And if you can do that, you feel good. Don't you? As a parent and like, Oh, like, wow. For the first time ever, my two year old got into the car seat without a screaming match. Like that's a win. And that helps me anyway, feel warm and fuzzy.  Laura: Oh, it definitely makes such a difference when you feel like you're maxed out, but then you get that win.And I mean, you're speaking my language, Sarah, and it's the exact same approach that I would take to a child who was struggling to come to the table, or who was really having a hard time eating and getting everything that they needed from food, you know, that connection piece is so important. And I will spare you the TED talk about everything that I see on Instagram that prioritises like these cheap wins over real connection over the feeding relationship. So yeah, I'll rein it back to what we're talking about here. Sarah: You know, when I was thinking about this, that we're going to have this conversation together, I was imagining that you and I at work would probably be that thing where we're holding onto different parts of the elephant. And while my work may look different, it's two parts of exactly the same thing. So I'm pleased to hear that is absolutely the case. Laura: 100%. So I got quite a few questions sent in. I'm not sure if we'll have time to go through them all, but I would really love to get your take on them. So these were sent in on Instagram that, you know, in the Instagram boxes, it's like a really tiny little space. So not all of them have all the context that I think we would need. I'll just shoot anyway. So the first one was “How to explain to kids why some stuff you do in private”. Again, there's no context here, but I'm going to assume that this parent means that their child is touching their vulva or their penis.Maybe…I mean, unless you have any other thoughts as to what might be going on there, but that seemed to be the most obvious thing to my mind. Sarah: Yeah, well, let's assume that. It's like anything else. We can think of other scenarios, that something is right in one context, but not another context. So oftentimes I will say, well, when we're going for a picnic in the park and we're sitting on a blanket. It makes total sense to use our hands, right? Cause we're probably eating a sandwich or a muffin or something, but when we go to granny's house and she served us tomato soup in a bowl, then what makes the most sense is to use a spoon. Or what do we wear when we go to the local swimming pool? Wear our swimmers. What do we do when we go to watch a movie in the cinema? Well, it wouldn't make sense at all to wear our swimmers. We'd get cold in the air conditioning anyway. We need maybe some trousers and a T-shirt. Same thing. With our genitals, depending on where our genitals are or like where our body is, well, there'll be different rules for them.So when we're on our own, when we're in the bathroom, when we're in our room, our genitals are our own. We can touch them and feel them and notice what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And you know, we wash our hands afterwards to make sure we don't spread any germs around the place, but your genitals are yours and you get to touch them and do with them whatever way you want. When we're outside, all the other people, they're allowed to not want to see us playing with our genitals, right? So we don't do it. Because if we didn't have that rule whereby people don't play with their genitals in public, then a lot of people might start playing with their genitals on the bus or in the playground or at school. And then it would be chaos. Not everyone wants to see other people's genitals or their hands down there. So it's just about common courtesy, really. And using analogies for other parts of life, where that same dynamic applies, it tends to ease us adults who are feeling a little bit squeaky about having that conversation in, because it's like, this is the same dynamic that plays out everywhere else in human existence. It just so happens because this is about genitals. Sometimes we're like, eh, I don't know what, help, help. Because maybe we're trying to reduce the likelihood of our child feeling shame, probably because when we were growing up, we were made to feel ashamed by what the adults around us said, and not because they were perhaps doing that on purpose, but because that's what they… Laura: They didn't have it shown to them. Yeah. Sarah: They, they didn't know. And most likely they would've been doing it with good intentions. Yeah. Some of us, you know, the adults that cared for us did not have good intentions. For the most part, though, most adults do, whatever level of ability we have talking about sensitive things is exactly right, depending on what's been in our past.So just because someone in the playground, a parent, is really good at this stuff, and we're not, that doesn't mean they're a better parent. They were just dealt a different hand and that's just the way it is.  Laura: Yeah. I hear you say that it's really important to have some self compassion when you are thinking about these issues.Thinking about having these conversations with your kid, but you kind of get that lump in your throat and you're not really quite sure how exactly to handle them, that just thinking about it, is a really good starting point, isn't it? And then from there, if you notice, Oh, I'm…well, it's checking in with your own bodily experiences, right, and saying, okay, what's coming up for me and where do I need some support or some help or some resources to help me open up these conversations.I really love the analogies that you use because these…yeah, it's a very similar thing, you know, talking about context and what's appropriate – I have some feelings about the word appropriate, but let's not get into that. One question that kind of came to my mind as you were explaining how you might approach that conversation. I'm curious if other parents might have this same thought, is that oftentimes in books around body boundaries and consent, they talk about your genitals as being private. So you know, one of the books that we have talks about how everything that's underneath your bathing suit, you know, it's your body, it's private.Would you use that kind of language, or how might you use that language? Do you find that helpful, or not so much? Sarah: There's a lovely author called Cory Silverberg, and they wrote three books for children of various ages. Laura: They're so good, these books. Sarah: Yeah, they're great. That author coined this idea of middle parts, and so the idea is rather than using private parts, using middle parts to generally describe genitals, because when we talk about private parts, it's just…it makes it complicated to give a child shame-free ownership of those parts of their body, right? One of the shifts in a family culture that can be really useful is this idea that in our family, we talk about everything.So, in a sense, particularly when kids are small, genitals aren't really private in families. Right? Laura: This is the exact thing that I've bumped up against with my three year old who still needs me to wipe his butt. And so there is that confusing thing of like, well, if this is private, but I need help with this or, you know, I still need to bathe him.And even the example that you gave earlier where we walk around our house nude, but we don't go outside nude, right? Like that can be a confusing thing. So I'm sorry to interject, but it just…you're articulating the exact, the exact thing that I have bumped up against. Sarah: Yeah. And so I suppose, again, it's another demonstration of something that manifests in lots of different ways in our parenting, but because it's to do with genitals, it's a bit like, Oh, not quite sure how this works.So the whole dynamic of raising children is that in the beginning, we're having to do a lot of things for them that they will eventually do themselves, feeding, cleaning, dressing, even sort of communicating, like taking the whole burden of communication off them onto us. So we're interpreting sounds and body language and all that sort of thing.So you can explain that dynamic to a child and say that there are certain parts of our body that are more sensitive than others and middle parts or genitals like penis or a vulva or whatever, there's a lot of special skin on those parts. And what that means is that they need special care, right? Now, when you're grown up and when you're, you know, maybe you're 8 or you're 10, you're going to wash those and put your clothes on those parts of your body. And you won't really need an adult's help at all. And you probably definitely won't want an adult's help, but while you're still small and I'm having to help you do a few other things, this is one of the parts of your body that, that you need help with.And my job is to help you eventually do it all on your own. Right. You would need to also say that bit about only trusted people help us with our most sensitive parts of ourselves. Right. And I suppose as a reminder that it's not just genitals we're talking about here. We're also talking about anus and we're talking about mouth because those are parts of the body too that can be used in ways that are really hurtful for people who don't have a child's best interest at heart. So when you're framing it in that way, there's less sense of like…the word private tends to put a shroud over things where, if you're talking about the sensitive special skin and special parts, then it's more like it's an honour and a privilege sort of thing, like to support you in this part of your being human. And to me, it just feels more gentle and collaborative and kind of nurturing. Laura: Yeah, I often thought about, like, the language of private parts as well as being a little bit confusing from the perspective of, like, as in when kids mature into young adults where they might want to start sharing their bodies with other people in a respectful, consensual way.Again, if it's got that sort of private, you know, shroud of shame connotation, then that's going to be a lot harder for them to do that in a way that, that feels safe.Sarah:  I'm laughing because I remember a meme that I saw, it would have been years ago now, but it was like, lies we tell children, number one, we don't lick other people's private parts.And just sort of like this, like head in the hand, like face palm, like, moment where, well, actually, when you get older…And I suppose what it illustrates is, when we're talking to kids, we have all this information and knowledge about where things could go as adults, right? They don't have an understanding of that.And I suppose it's no harm really to allow ourselves as adults to simplify it at a particular point in time, right? Knowing that as our kids get older, that truth that we've told will no longer be true. Right. And so, and that's where resources like Cory Silverberg's book, Sex is a Funny Word or, You Know Sex. Sex is a Funny Word is for around, around seven and eight years, And, You Know Sex is sort of for 10 to 14 year olds where it's really clear, it's a lot about how our bodies are instruments of pleasure, right? Which is often another conversation that adults find hard to have with kids. You know, that classic thing where you have that conversation about how babies are made or well, sperms and eggs get together and a penis goes into a vagina, if those two people want to do that, or you might talk about IVF or artificial insemination, but if it's a penis in a vagina… Laura: It leaves out a whole part of the conversation as to why people have sex. Yeah. Sarah: Exactly. And so oftentimes the kids will come back and say, all right, so I've been thinking about that. So that means you and dad did that twice, right? And parents will go, Oh, which actually just demonstrates that, like you said, a whole section of the conversation that was was left out about pleasure. So I think in these moments, when we're talking to kids about boundaries and safety, it's possible to simplify it a bit, knowing that down the road, one of our important jobs is to bring this whole pleasure and sharing our bodies with other people, and that naturally comes as they grow older and they start cluing in on more things to do with…they see the diversity in relationships around their extended community and family, you know, like if you have a same sex couple in your community, it makes it so much easier. And thank you to all the out gay and bi people, right?Because it makes it so much easier to have the pleasure conversation because it's so clear that if a child has had those conversations that sex really is only a penis and a vagina that all of a sudden you get this beautiful opportunity to talk about, well, actually intimacy is so much more about pleasure and how bodies feel good and how, when we share our body with someone else and we trust them and they trust us, then we get to help another person's body feel really good.There are lots of different ways that that happens. And then remember that in parenting, sometimes you don't have to say everything, like you can…Um, if you have a child who really needs things to be quite concretised, so an autistic child, for example, who really needs very specific communication. I'm autistic, I know what it means when someone's beating around the bush and I have to say, can you just tell me, tell me exactly what you mean by that? What does that mean? And then they're clear. And I'm like, okay, fine. And there are children like that, but some kids, you know, the information layers on over time, so it's far more about just holding your nerve and knowing that over the weeks and the months and the years to come, there'll be lots of opportunity to do and say and read all the things.Laura: And that's exactly what I was going to say is, reminding ourselves that, that this isn't a one and done conversation, that we will be having, if we're lucky and privileged to continue having these conversations with our kids, if they trust us enough to keep coming to us for these conversations, then it will be an iterative, as you say, layering on more information and more nuance as they developmentally can grasp that.So, I'm really curious to hear your answer to this question, because I bet there's a ton that you would love to say, but the person who sent this question in asked, “Four year old is asking questions, I'm not sure she's actually ready to hear the answer about, what do I do?” Sarah: I always say that if a child is asking the question, then they need to know the answer.Oftentimes in parenting advice, you'll hear people say, first of all, you ask them, well, what do you know already? And again, I go back to that old thing about, okay, where else in parenting do we check, well, what do you know already? Like there may be some places where you genuinely want to know, okay, do you know the basics of the solar system, for example? And so then I can just tell you, answer the question based on your knowledge, but oftentimes adults will use that, what do you know already as a way to sort of like create space. Laura: Or deflect. Sarah: Yeah, deflect. That's right. Or create space. And that's not a bad thing if your brain is trying to catch up. But all I would say is, a four year old has huge amounts of capacity for understanding sperms and eggs and uteruses and testicles and lots of things. And as a general rule, if we think a child isn't old enough to get the answer to something, it's probably because there's something in our past or a worry that we have that we don't know is there.So short answer, answer the question and see what happens, and use simple language in a way that you would use for answering any other questions you might ask. Laura: It's interesting, just maybe a point of difference in how we might approach things, because if a, for example, if a child came to me and asked, is this healthy for me? Like this food. Usually, I would be really curious to know, okay, well, I'm interested, what do you think? Do you think this is a healthy food? Just to get a gauge of, like, what information they've picked up or what they've learned so that I'm kind of starting from where they are and then maybe building from there.But I also see, like, how in certain situations it could be, like, Oh, fuck. I'm in too deep here. So let's just get the kid to do the hard work for me. Yeah. Sarah: And I guess, again, it's about how much stigma and shame culturally exists around a topic. There's a lot of stigma and shame that exists around…there is a lot of cultural shit around your topic as well, right? They're both heavily laden. Laura: But I would argue that you probably, uh, win on this, Sarah: Yeah. Yay! My topic's more stigmatised! Laura: You got it, yeah! I think what we're saying is, the point is to have the conversation, right? To think about, and again, what we were saying before, noticing what comes up in us when that question is asked.Sarah: And if you need to buy time, one of the great ways to do it is to say, Oh, I love that question. I'm so glad you asked it. Even if you're lying because you're freaking out, reinforce how great it is that they brought that up. I love that question. I'm so glad you asked it. I want to make sure I give you the best answer I can. So I'll get back to you tomorrow. Now, if you say that. You must get back to them tomorrow, otherwise it's a breach of trust. And remember, we're trying to be askable adults, the people they trust the most to come to them with their worst and best questions and worries. So that's really important. So you, in rugby language, you kick for touch. You tell them you come back tomorrow, you run around and find your most trusted sex educator, or you go to your therapist or ask your best friend who seems to know how to do all these things. And then you go back to your kid the next day.Laura:  Yeah. I did not understand the rugby reference, but everything else you said sounded really good.Sarah: Kicking for touch means, like, you take the ball and you kick it as far down the pitch as you can, hoping that it will bounce in exactly the right way that you can run down and start from that point. Right. Laura: Got it. Okay, I'm with you. Alright, another quick question, just in general: smashing gender stereotypes for a three year old who has turned out like a princess. They love glitter, and dresses, and pink, and does not enjoy wearing pants, despite the parents best efforts to show her a variety of gender roles. And then the same person kind of asked a follow up question, which is, is it okay to just…let her be tacky and think she's a Disney princess, even if I wish it was different.So yeah, questions about gender roles and offering a variety of, not even offering a variety, but challenging gender stereotypes. Sarah: So I'll answer the second part of that question first. It is absolutely okay to allow your three year old to be as tacky and as pink or as glittery as they want. Absolutely.And that goes for a child of any gender. Yeah. Yeah. And I would also say that for some of us, there is a desire, I suppose, to fix everything that's wrong with the world through a small person who's growing up. And really they're one human. Yeah, and they're themselves and they're an individual. And I remember thinking a lot about this when my daughter was, I can't remember what she was, we started to get into YouTube videos about makeup and she loved makeup and I really had to do a lot of soul searching and personal sort of, like, care because I really wanted to fix the whole of the patriarchy when it came to like appearance and that whole makeup culture and everything. But I realized that no, no, that's not my job. And it's definitely not my 11 year old, 10 year old's job. My job is to love her and support her and help her feel like she is the best thing since sliced bread. Even if she is…has interests along sort of gender stereotype lines. And yeah, so remembering that in the moment when we're thinking of, Oh, we want to sort of fix the gender stereotypes and all that stuff. That really our child's body is not the place in which to do that. If you have a desire to create some sort of change, find somewhere else to do it.And look, the person who's asking these questions has already done a really great job of providing diversity and opportunity to see different things in their home. And so, you know, you've done what you can do and you continue to look at yourself and notice, okay, where are some of the ways that I might unthinkingly be following stereotypical lines and maybe then volunteer for some organisation or donate money somewhere else who's doing work related to gender and get on loving your kid and doing all the sparkly, tulle, pink, whatever it is. Unicorns. Yeah. Laura: Yeah. I think that's such a helpful reminder is that, you know, kids are not our like personal projects for righting everything that is wrong in the world and that there are other ways that we can create opportunities for them, show that we will be loving, accepting no matter what they decide they want to be when they grow up or how they want to express themselves or, you know, who they want to be in relationships with or any of that stuff that we can. There…you know, it doesn't have to be this either/or binary because so much of what is problematic about systems in the world is that they're binary, right?And so we…I suppose one thing that we can do is work to not replicate binaries in our, in our own home and in our parenting. And I have a little curveball question for you that I wanted to ask, which is kind of related to, something else we talked about at the very beginning around people feeling entitled to kids' bodies, and I promise I didn't just get you on the podcast to answer my own parenting shit, but I was curious to hear if you had or how you might approach this or if you had any thoughts on this. Something that we come up against quite a lot is people really feeling entitled to explanations from my three year old. You know, that thing, which again can be like very well connected, meaning and people want to connect with him by asking, you know, what's your name? What's your age? But then they always ask, are you a boy or a girl?And It just feels so invasive and I can tell that he feels invaded because he kind of like, you know, curls into me, and it's one of those things where I just want to say. There is no such thing as a girl or a boy. What are you talking about? Like, and just launch into this whole diatribe about gender roles and, and things, but it, you know, the corner shop is not the place to do that.So I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on how you can kind of say to your child, like, it wasn't okay that they asked you that question. And, you know, I could tell that you were uncomfortable with that question while also maybe kind of like deflecting that question, does that make sense what I'm asking?Sarah: In a sense, you've partially answered it already because what you said there about saying to your kid afterwards, that question was, I could see it made you uncomfortable. What you're doing is you're, you're reflecting back their experience of it and reinforcing that that was a valid response, right?And so you're really sort of saying that made sense to me that you felt like that, that felt a bit weird. And you could even be more sort of broad and say, you know, some people ask questions that don't feel comfortable or feel a bit unkind or feel a bit rough. Whatever is the natural language that your, your kid would resonate with.But the other thing would be to – and you may already do this – is in the moment when it's happening and the person in the shop has asked that question, you can see your kid's body language doing what it's doing. You could simply say, Oh, I noticed that that question, it feels, it feels uncomfortable. So how about we talk about what we're buying in the shop, or did you know that apples is our favorite fruit? This is a personal choice. Actually. Some people would choose to deflect in a way that's very sort of gentle and easy going, because in the presence of a child, they're not interested in raising the conflict, elevating the energy. So do that way. Some people are more comfortable saying simply, you know, we don't really talk about gender in our house. We're much more interested in… whatever it is. So like it's finding the balance that feels right to you in being able to redirect…or I had one person just simply ignored questions they thought was stupid, they just like blanked them and went, okay, good to see you and off they went or, okay, we're going off to get the milk now. And just like, just pretended that it hadn't even happened, you know. It's different for everyone. There will be, and I'll speak to this too, there will be some people that don't have the personal capacity to manage any of the options that we've just mentioned here. You know, and there's someone in my community who something similar happened, they were in the park and a dear family friend, I think was about 50, saw them after, it might've been after COVID. So it'd been a few years and, her daughter was probably about 10 and he sort of, he moved in or something and she could see her daughter's whole body. So like, like shrink like this, but in the moment, yeah. Did not have the capacity. Like didn't see it coming. Hadn't thought about any of this stuff before. And so the interaction happened, he left and she hadn't been able to do anything about it, which makes complete sense because there are many of us, we go into a trauma response that reflects what's happened to us in our past, where we also were mute or I didn't have power to, to sort of do anything about that.So also, I suppose, a recognition of that. We all have different capacity when it comes to a situation like this and to reiterate and go back to that thing again about self compassion, whatever you have capacity to do in that moment is exactly right. It is not possible to achieve something if you don't have the underlying ability or experience or knowledge to do that.And so there's no shame, there's no blaming about that. It purely gives you an opportunity to notice. And then maybe at some point you'll have the ability to reach out for help. And for some of us, we don't have the ability to reach out for help for 5 years, 10 years. Some of us never in our life because we don't have the economic advantage or the educational support to do so.So it's just a small reminder that we all start in this area at completely different places on this spectrum of ability. And it doesn't mean you're bad or wrong. It simply means you are who you are with the life that you had. Laura: Sarah, I just want to – before we do our snacks – I just wanted to say, I felt myself get emotional at what you were saying there because it's just…the work that you're doing is so important and I know makes such a difference to the families that you help and I know you put a ton of like free resources and content out there.So I'm just really grateful to all the work that you're doing and yeah, just shining a light on these really difficult, challenging conversations in a way that is so compassionate and so just nuanced and thoughtful and yeah, I just know that you're making a big difference for a ton of people, so I wanted to say thank you.And I want to know what your snack is! At the end of every episode, my guest and I share something they've been snacking on. It can be a show, a podcast, a book, you know, like a literal snack, whatever it is that you've been really into lately. So what have you got for us? Sarah:  Yeah, well, this is actually something quite personal because, you know, I mentioned about being autistic.And that diagnosis came very late in life for me, only last year. So the thing I'm snacking on is noticing when it's possible to truly be myself, as opposed to do something that I've learned to do to make everyone else feel comfortable, you know, and that can be something as simple as, well, this isn't simple. Actually, this is quite challenging for me. I was at a, like a week long training for…a therapy training that I'm doing the other week. And instead of sitting on the chair, I sat on the floor because that's where my body felt the most comfortable. So, and it felt so damn good, you know, like it didn't feel just good to sit on the floor. It felt good to honour who I was. And so in an ideal world, I guess, honouring who I am wouldn't be a snack, but because this is a work in progress. It absolutely is a snack right now, and I'm grateful for it. Laura: Oh, I love that. And a lot of people who are part of the Can I Have Another Snack? community are neurodivergent, and I'm sure will really resonate with that experience of, yeah, unmasking and feeling like really comfortable doing that and how, yeah, just affirming that feels. So yeah, thank you for, for sharing that. Oh, my thing is just going to sound really trite compared to that, but my thing is a show, it's called Deadloch. Have you seen it?Sarah: Is that the Australian show? Oh, it's so good. Laura: Yeah. So, okay. So I'm excited to be able to talk to someone about it because I feel like not a lot of people have come across it.Uh, so it's set in Tasmania. It's all I can describe it as…is like a lesbian detective show. Sarah: That's about it. And like, it's so quirky, isn't it? Like it's just so random and weird and sometimes dark and sometimes hilarious. And it's sort of like, it's, it's wild. I'm so glad you love that. Laura: It is wild. And so there's, there's only one season, which is really disappointing, but it…each episode is an hour, so I feel like it's enough that you can, like, get stuck in. And I am someone who, like, my nervous system cannot handle a lot of stress, anxiety in the shows that I watch, I need to, like, be able to decompress. I do want to say that...it is a murder mystery, like it does ramp up in terms of the suspense across the season I want to say, but there's enough dark humour and comedy and, like, a lot of swearing and ridiculousness that it kind of like tempers it out and yeah, so it's really good. I highly recommend it. Sarah: It's amazing. Can I just say, from the perspective of sensitive conversations to the writers of that show, they had to write a rationale for why the word cunt should be in the script because it's used prolifically. For anyone who doesn't know, in Australian colloquial swearing language, cunt is used for lots of different things and it's important it was in there, culturally. It was super important. So I just loved that. And the other thing I loved was that – this isn't a spoiler – the victims of the crimes are not the gender you think, like you naturally assume them to be based on a lot of other like TV crime you would see.So there's some things that comes out and it just sort of skews your expectation based on what the culture has given you, that invisible influence of normal in crime shows, you know? Laura: There is a lot of cultural stuff that is a kind of cultural critique, I suppose, that around gender, around racism, there's a lot of stuff that it touches on, but there is prolific use of the C word.But it, it's just like the way that it is thrown in, it's just very well done. The whole thing is very well done. So highly recommend. Sarah: And can I just say one thing, because you said “the C word” and I think it's important. Because when I was about 28, I was able to reclaim the word cunt because I was in a relationship with an artist at that point and a poet.And he said to me, because I was like, Ooh, that's a yuck word, he said, did you know like, it comes from the old…Old English or Old Norse or something, something of like, when you're ploughing that there's like, the plough leaves a cunt behind in the soil. And I was sort of like, oh, that actually sort of made me feel like, well, that's sort of nice. Like it's a similar sort of look. And for some reason, it just made me feel like I think I could reclaim that word. Not that other people can't, but from that time on, I was like, yeah, okay, that word and I, we can coexist with relative equanimity. Laura: Do you know what? I don't even know why I censored myself because I say cunt all the time.You're a cunt, you're a cunt, they're a cunt. But I understand that maybe not everybody is as comfortable with that word.Sarah, before I let you go, can you let everybody know where they can find you and learn more about your work? Sarah: Sure. Well, my Instagram is @IAmSarahSproule. And at the moment in the season that I'm in, which is really about unmasking and making sure I rest as much as I can. There's not a lot of new things out there, but there is about three years worth of very detailed content there about how to talk to kids about all sorts of things that all different ages, and it's well worth trawling back through there and, getting your fill of support. So that's where the main place you can find me. Laura: Yeah, I will link to all of that in the show notes and there's some great farting content on there as well, which I really appreciate and enjoy. Sarah, it's been such a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for sharing everything with us. I know we could have gone on for like another 90 minutes, but I will wrap up there and let you go. Thanks so much, Sarah.OUTROThanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today.  Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening. ICYMI this week: Let's Talk All Things Neurodiversity and Food* How are you flipping gender scripts for your kids?* Nourishing Full Bodied Awareness with Hillary McBride* Let's Talk About Snacks, Baby This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Ever wondered what a Declaration of Independence document would look like for property management entrepreneurs? Jason did, so he fed ChatGBT his mission statement and core values. Join property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull as they go through The Property Management Declaration of Independence. You'll Learn [02:44] Article I: Liberation from Limiting Beliefs [09:40] Article II: Autonomy from Bad Clients [11:54] Article III: Emancipation from Inefficient Processes [13:12] Article IV: Freedom of Experimentation [20:26] Article V: Independence Through Education and Collaboration [29:01] Article VI: Allegiance to Our Core Values [31:36] Article VII: Pursuit of Holistic Success Tweetables “There's few things that will steal more of your sense of autonomy and freedom than bad clients.” “If you have limiting beliefs, one of the best ways to get liberated from it is to just be around somebody that doesn't hold those same limiting beliefs for you.” “If you say, "Oh, it won't work because of this and this and this." You are right.” “If you have a shitty mindset, just know it will hold you back and you will only accomplish what you believe you can accomplish.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: if you believe that you have the knowledge and the ability and the resources to be able to figure out how to make the shifts that you need to have the business that you want and run it the way that you want, then it's absolutely possible.  [00:00:16] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust, gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO along with Sarah, the COO of DoorGrow. I know, I need to rewrite this intro for when you're here, because sometimes you're here-- and now let's get into the show. All right.  [00:01:24] Sarah: You stumble on that every time. So funny. I know. I have to like wing it. He's like in the middle of reading it. Okay. " And her over there." [00:01:33] Jason: Let's get into this. All right, so it is Independence Day. It is the 4th of July in which United States declared its independence and fought for freedom, right? So we'regoing to be talking about property management entrepreneurs declaring your independence. So, this is something that I think is important because you've heard me talk before about the four reasons: fulfillment, freedom, contribution, and support. Entrepreneurs, we want freedom. And so let's talk about a declaration of independence for property management entrepreneurs. So, I actually have been really having fun playing around with chat GPT and I gave it a bunch of info of how we kind of do things and our philosophy and I had it create a Declaration of Independence. So this should be interesting. So we can go through some of this and we can chat about some of these ideas. And does that sound good? All right.  [00:02:34] Sarah: Well, I guess so because that's what we're doing.  [00:02:36] Jason: Alright. This is what we're doing. She had no clue. She just walked in here. No, and I'm like, this is what we're talking about.  [00:02:42] Sarah: I just show up.  [00:02:44] Jason: She just shows up. Yeah. because she can do that. All right, cool. So, declaration of Independence for property management entrepreneurs. "In the spirit of entrepreneurial growth, the pursuit of freedom in the property management industry." We need to queue up like some patriotic music. [00:03:02] Maybe. I'm just kidding, Madi, maybe you'll add that.  [00:03:05] "We, the United Community of Property Management entrepreneurs solemnly declare our independence from the constraints, inefficiencies, and setbacks that have bound us for too long. We assert our dedication to a brighter, more prosperous, and thriving future." [00:03:20] "Article one, liberation from Limiting Beliefs." So one of the number one things before I read it. One of the number one things clients say that they get from us is mindset. It's just mindset shifts. because that changes everything of how they do things, how their business runs. All right, this is what it says.  [00:03:37] "We vow to liberate ourselves from self-limiting beliefs that hinder innovation and growth. We pledge to foster a growth mindset and no longer allow the words, 'I can't,' or 'it's not possible' to define our reality." So, what have you noticed about limiting beliefs with clients?  [00:03:55] Sarah: Well, I think whatever you think is possible is exactly what is possible. So if you think like, "oh, I can't do it that way," or "This won't work," or like, "oh, my team can't do this," or " I don't have the right tools," then you're absolutely right and it won't happen the way that you want it to or the way that it could. I think some of the biggest shifts I've seen in clients is when they open their mind to different possibilities and when they start to do things just a little differently.  [00:04:27] Jason: So most of our clients are pretty good at believing in us. I think we've gotten really good at convincing them through the sales process and once they get on board, we've got plenty, tons of case studies. But occasionally we get a client that comes in and they are skeptical about everything and maybe somehow they missed all the details during the onboarding and the sales process, and they don't believe. They have these limiting beliefs, "this stuff won't work." What do we notice in terms of results between those shitty clients and everyone else? [00:05:00] Sarah: Well, first, I don't think it's fair to call them shitty clients.  [00:05:03] Jason: Okay. Maybe we don't. Shitty mindset clients.  [00:05:05] Yeah. I think it's fair to say  [00:05:06] Sarah: like, "Hey, your mindset is shitty." Yeah. And I get that like my mindset used to be completely different. Totally different. Like I grew up in a place , where. Anybody that was making a million dollars a year, like I just didn't know it. Like, I was like, "oh, like, Hollywood. That's like what happens there, like when you're famous and you're like, this is just what happens out there. Or like, maybe big cities but not here. And because they didn't have any kind of example or anything tangible to say like, "Hey, they did it so I can do it." I just didn't believe that it was possible. And when I got out of that area, and now I'm in an area where it's very entrepreneurial based and business friendly and people just have a different kind of thought process around here, and we spend a lot of time with people who they're elevated in their thinking. And now I'm like, "yeah, it's a hundred percent possible." Absolutely possible. So I think first is if you have a shitty mindset, just know it will hold you back and you will only accomplish what you believe you can accomplish. So if you think, "oh yeah, none of this stuff is going to work for me," and we've heard it all, like, "oh, my market is different," or like, "my team won't do that," or like, "oh yeah, my clients will never go for that," or like, "my tenants are different. My properties are different." And like all of the reasons, what they're doing is they're like giving us all of the reasons why it's not going to work for them. And they're correct on every single reason. [00:06:39] If you say, "oh, it won't work because of this and this and this." You are right. What we need to do is like change your mindset to believe like, "Hey, this can work for me and it can work in my market and it can work with my team and it can work with my clients and it might mean that I need to make some shifts. It's not just going to be, "oh, I believe it and now it's true." we need to make a couple shifts and it can be true, but if you believe that you have the knowledge and the ability and the resources to be able to figure out how to make the shifts that you need to have the business that you want and run it the way that you want, then it's absolutely possible. [00:07:18] Jason: Okay, so some clients come to us. We have quite a few actually, that they don't believe in themselves. And one of the things-- this is a confession on my part-- one of the things that I failed with clients in the past, because I couldn't see this-- is that sometimes clients come to us and they're lacking hope. They don't have belief in themselves, and my mindset at the time was, "well just do the stuff and you'll see that it works". And the clients that would do it, they would get results and it would work, and some clients just wouldn't put in effort. They'd say they did, but they would blame us and like stuff like this, and they don't realize it takes like three months to get something really well dialed in. So they'd try it for like a couple days. Right. So I think one of the things that I've realized since from some of my coaches and mentors is that, we as coaches get to believe and provide hope and faith into our clients that are lacking it. [00:08:16] And so I think we're much better now at helping clients that lack that mindset and lack that belief and have limiting beliefs in themselves or even in like the strategies. If we give them enough belief, they still start to get results and that belief it rubs off on them. And so instead of blaming clients, I now take accountability more and say, "all right, I'm not giving them enough belief. I need to be more in their corner. I need to believe in them more." And I see them energetically change real time while on a Zoom call with them, like I just start feeding them belief like, "somebody else did this. You can do this too. They're not more special than you. They're not more charismatic. They're not better looking than you. They're not smarter than you. You know how to do property management. If they can do this stuff, you can do it too." I believe that I believe in them. And then they start to go, "wait, maybe he's right. Maybe I can do this." And then it starts to help their belief. [00:09:16] And so I think if you have limiting beliefs, one of the best ways to get liberated from it is to just be around somebody that doesn't hold those same limiting beliefs for you. They believe in you. They believe in you. Do you believe in me?  [00:09:27] Sarah: Yeah. Of course. I believe in you. [00:09:29] Jason: Sarah believes in me. I believe in her. Do you feel like I believe in you? Yeah. Yeah. So, and that creates momentum. That creates momentum. All right, let's go to the next one. Article two, autonomy from Bad Clients. "We assert our right to work with clients who respect and value our expertise. We shall not allow our business to be dominated by clients who undermine our values, ethics, or the standards of service we strive to provide." [00:09:58] So this goes along with our concept I, this of the cycle of suck and not taking on bad clients, which-- [00:10:04] Sarah: we should give this to our clients. And just like-- [00:10:06] Jason: have them sign it? Yeah.  [00:10:07] Sarah: This is your new declaration. We're doing it.  [00:10:10] Jason: ChatGPT is really good if you give it good data, like garbage in, garbage out. Right? I know. So, yeah, I gave it our whole client avatar document. I gave it our DoorGrowShow manifesto. I gave it our client-centric mission statement, and then they give it all that and this is what it came up with. So it's pretty cool. Pretty good. So yeah, I think this is involved with, our previous episodes where we talked about the cycle of suck or not taking on bad clients, but yeah, you deserve, you have the right to choose who you work with that value, your expertise. Why would you tolerate anything less? This is your business. You can build it however you want. You can build it full of a bunch of clients that don't value you, or you can build it full of clients that share your values, your ethics, your standards, want you to be able to do your best job and are willing to pay you for it. Anything else we should say about that?  [00:11:03] Sarah: I think we covered this a lot in our program, but what's really nice is to see when clients start to make that shift for themselves. Like we've had a few clients say like, and it was very clear to me that this is not the client that I wanted to work with. So like, sometimes they turn it down, sometimes they just know like, Hey, if I get the deal then, I'll consider taking it on if it seems to be a decent enough fit. But like, this is not my ideal client, so I'm really just not going to put a lot of time and energy into this because I can see like, this is just not what I'm looking for. [00:11:38] Jason: Autonomy from bad clients. I mean, really there's few things that will steal more of your sense of autonomy and freedom than bad clients. I mean, that's a real strong thief, so you deserve freedom from that. Declare your independence from bad clients.  [00:11:54] All right, article number three, emancipation from inefficient processes. "We declare to free ourselves from inefficient, archaic, and time consuming processes. We will actively seek, implement, and embrace technology and systems that streamline our operations, enhance productivity, and allow us to serve our clients better." [00:12:16] Sarah: Like that. These are these shifts. We got to make some shifts. If you're expecting your business to just change overnight and without really changing anything in it, then it's like, the definition of insanity. Like we're doing the same thing over and over, but we're expecting different results.  [00:12:35] Jason: Yeah. We've got a lot of software tools and tech that we use with clients to facilitate them having a greater sense of freedom and emancipation from inefficient processes. So yeah, technology can help with that. Okay.  [00:12:52] Sarah: Well, so can a great team though. Yes. Not everything needs to be technology because I've seen property management companies that they're like," we just rely on technology," and like humans are very rarely involved and it just doesn't work the way that they want it to work.  [00:13:07] Jason: Systems, right? Systems. Yeah. Building systems. Okay.  [00:13:12] Article four, Roman numeral iv. Okay. Freedom of Experimentation. "We recognize our freedom to experiment with new approaches and marketing strategies. We will not be shackled by "this is how it's always been done," shall embrace the diverse, evolving landscape of our industry." So I think innovation is a big part of what we focus on at DoorGrow. We're always like adding new things and coming up with new ideas and pulling in the best ideas from our clients that are also working towards innovating and making a difference. And I think innovation comes from. Innovation. And so as our clients are doing these new ideas and these new things, they're seeing little ways to improve. because that's what entrepreneurs do. Like, Hey, we could do this, we could do that. And so, and us sitting on top with a bird's eye view of all these clients that are doing all of these things that we've helped to bring to the industry or to innovate, they're also helping us to make this better for everybody else as well. [00:14:16] And so this innovation incubation system that we've created at DoorGrow is pretty powerful, I think. So, I mean, just some of the ideas that some of our clients have presented at some of our conferences have been pretty awesome, so, yeah. All right. Yeah. Anything else about that?  [00:14:32] Sarah: I think the only other thing I would add is like, the way that we implement things in our business. because we just move so fast. Yeah. Like Jason and I, we don't like to waste time. We don't, him and haw, we're not like, oh, is this the right decision? Like, what do we do? I don't know. Let's take like four months and figure it out. We see something, we make a change and we're like, let's just do it. And if it's the wrong thing, then we'll undo it because we'll see it very quickly. But we take action really quickly. We just went through our annual planning and from just one year. Our business is completely different. Like our model is different, our coaching is different, like what we offer is different. [00:15:10] Totally. Like literally every piece of it is completely different. It was like we took our old business model and we just blew it up and we were like, Hey, how can we make this like 20 times better? Yeah. And we did it. And we did it all in less than one year. So it was so funny because when we were going through, we start off with wins, we're like, Hey, what wins do we have from the last year? And it was like, we had so many wins. Like, it's like hard to even think like, Hey, remember a year ago when our business was like this? So what's nice about that is we get to pull up like what the business looked like last year in the system. We were like, oh yeah, we totally forgot because it was so long ago to us. We're like, oh God, I like totally forgot it used to be like that. We used to do things like this, and these are all of the things that we changed or improved or added in order to make things that much better. And I think just being able to like add a new piece or do things a little bit differently is something that sometimes doesn't feel super comfortable for people because they're so worried about like, is this the right decision? [00:16:14] And it might not be. It might not be the right decision, but the inaction will keep you like tethered to the ground for a really long time. So if we just worry all the time like, oh, I don't want to do it because I just don't know if it's the right thing, you are never going to know if it's the right thing. Unfortunately, like no one makes a crystal ball yet. We don't have like the answer to predict the future at this point in time. So sometimes you just have to make the leap and guess and know that if you make the leap and it's the wrong one, we can always change it because your business should be this like ever evolving, ever changing thing. It shouldn't be like this stagnant old like pond, with like murky water that never gets any movement.  [00:17:00] Jason: So, I think one of the things that has facilitated the speed and the innovation and the experimentation, which is the Article four that we're talking about, is DoorGrow OS, like having this really strong planning system, which you mentioned we just did annual, quarterly, monthly, and weekly planning. We did it all in a week. It was like planning week. So this planning system, really, and not all technology is software. Not all technology is software. This is a piece of technology, which there is a software aspect to it, but really the technology of this is this system that of planning that we're able to create this cadence of momentum in the business that gets everyone on the team moving it forward. [00:17:51] It's probably the most important system we have in our business. It creates our culture, it creates our business, it creates our results. It creates an immense amount of speed. No one can keep up with the level of changes like Sarah's saying, if you worked with DoorGrow in the past, like three years ago, or even one year ago. Even one year ago. [00:18:10] Sarah: If you were a client with us like one year ago, yeah, you have no, is not, you have no idea what DoorGrow is now because it's just so different.  [00:18:18] Jason: This is like a newer. Way more improved company and clients that worked with us maybe five years ago or maybe even 10 years ago. They have no clue what DoorGrow is even about or what we do anymore. It's even one year ago transformed so much one year in what we do. It's like, so it's so very different. Totally.  [00:18:36] Sarah: One year ago we had one program that was it. Like we had one program and we had like a baby scale program with like a little bit in it. But it's really flourished. So now we have like three different three different programs and like so many things that are available that we just didn't, we didn't have at all before.  [00:18:57] Jason: Now you said we don't have a crystal ball, but if there was something that was as close as you could get to a crystal ball, it would be having a planning system like DoorGrow OS because we are creating the future. We map it out and there's a super high likelihood we're going to achieve it because of how it's all broken down. And it creates predictable results. Like we consistently are able to scale our revenue, scale our programs, and get the things done that we want to do at a really high pace. And we're able to create predictable results we can, we create and see the future. A of entrepreneurs have a vision of the future and they try and throw that vision to their team, like a grenade with a pin pulled. And the team are like, what? What? Okay. Sure. And then they teach. A lot of entrepreneurs don't have a good system like this, and so they teach their team to lose. [00:19:44] They're like, Hey, we're going to hit this great goal this month, and then they don't. And they're teaching their team to be comfortable with losing, and they get more and more comfortable with failure. Our team's pretty comfortable with winning, right? Yeah. Like if we don't hit an objective, something major happened. Like painful. Yeah. Something major happened. Yeah. And so our team are used to winning and we win early. We set goals and we hit them usually early. Is the goal. DoorGrowOS is one of the systems we in help clients install. This planning system better than EOS, better than traction, better than whatever else you've, like, experimented with. You'll get far bigger results from your team and you'll get a lot more momentum and money.  [00:20:26] All right, so let's go to article number five. Article five. Independence through Education and Collaboration. This is something we are a big part of that we believe in.  [00:20:37] "We commit to continual learning and collaboration, understanding that our strength lies in the collective wisdom of our community. We pledge to share insights, strategies, and experiences with our fellow property management entrepreneurs for the greater good of the industry." [00:20:54] A lot of people are worried about the competition and they don't want to share their ideas. Yes. And how small is their thinking?  [00:21:01] Sarah: Oh yeah, I know. There was somebody just yesterday that said, "oh my God, like, this is such an amazing program. And like I, I've been part of multiple coaching programs on the real estate side and this blows all of those out of the water. Obviously we're focused on property management, but he's like, this blows all of this out of the water." And he is like, "I just hope that my competitors don't find out about this and start using you guys because that would be really bad for me." And like, I get it. I do, I understand it. Because-- [00:21:30] Jason: this is a new client. [00:21:32] Sarah: Yes. Yeah, he's newer. They'll figure it out. Yeah. He's newer. So I get it because I used to think that too, like, oh God. Like it's like that we have to have like this abundance mindset, like a, there's always enough to go around. And b, we say it like a rising tide raises all ships. So if you are like, oh, I can't, like, I can't tell my secrets to my competitors. [00:21:55] I must keep everything like you, I'm not telling you anything that you do. I, and I used to be, I used to be like that. So I, I do understand it because I used to be like, I'm not telling anybody what I do. Like you do what you do and I'm justgoing to do what I do, and you don't need to worry about what I'm doing over here. And I've gotten out of that just because. My mindset has changed. And I realize there's so much more than like our brains can even fathom. If you think, hey, like I can make, a hundred thousand dollars a year and this is what my business can look like, there's more to be had and there's always more like to go around. If you're like, Hey, I know I can do a hundred thousand. I feel like I'm in the mindset where I could do two 50 or 500 or a million dollars a year. I can have multiple locations. Like I can just keep acquiring businesses. I can grow and grow. with a client this week that has 1300 doors. Let's pause there for a second, because a lot of times, 1300 doors is really hard to even get to, and most property managers don't even reach that level. And he's at 1300 doors and he goes, I haven't even like made a dent. Like I haven't, I'm just a drop in the bucket. Of where I want to go and where I want to be. Why is that? Because his mindset is open. Like he's opened his mind to realize there is, there's more if we think of it like this, like, hey, You are just like this tiny little pinpoint on the map because when we expand out, it's like, here's me and my business. [00:23:26] But if we expand out, you are in an entire like city. We expand out more. You're in an entire state. We expand out more. You're in an entire country. We expand out more like we're in an entire planet. If we just keep going and going, like, the universe is just so infinite. And if you're, sometimes it's just so hard to conceptualize because your brain is like this is what I'm doing and like, this is what I can see, touch, and feel around me. [00:23:53] But if you, once you realize like, Hey, there is always, there's always more. You're not going to worry about what your competitors do. Not at all. You're not even going to be concerned. Like, I don't really care what Johnny's doing down the street. He could do all of the same things that I do, and I'm just not worried about it because I know that there's so much abundance to go around that I'm, I don't care what he is doing. [00:24:17] Jason: So when your vision is small, you see the competition. When your vision's bigger, you see a lot more opportunity. And we really try and push the idea mindset wise and with our clients and here on the podcast, collaboration over competition, right? When we get our clients collaborating, like we just talked about before, innovation starts to happen, the whole industry can move forward. [00:24:42] Two thirds are self-managing, there's like 70% or so that are self-managing. There's no scarcity in this industry. If you feel like there's scarcity. And it's because you're playing a game that is not very winnable. You're probably doing the wrong things to try and grow. If it feels scarce, get with us and we'll help you see bigger opportunities. [00:25:02] So once we get clients in our system and they're focused on adding doors, and they start adding doors, and they start to do this in the blue ocean, instead of doing it in the red, ugly bloody water through SEO or pay per click or content marketing or social media marketing or pay per lead services. They realize there's plenty of business. It's not hard to grow, and they become completely like, like, it's like not even paying attention to, or not even caring about their competition. Yeah. They're like, they're so busy adding doors and making money and trying to get their own stuff together to be able to handle the growth. [00:25:37] They're not even paying attention anymore to the competition.  [00:25:40] Sarah: Exactly. Like Mike with a 1300 doors seat, like no. Never ever at that, like at any point in our conversation did he say like, oh, but I'm like, I can't do this because this person. Never, like he, he's worried about what he's doing. He is like on this one track, and he is like, this is my mission and this is what I need to do and this is where I'm going. And I don't care about anything else. Like, I don't care about anything else around me when, like, they put blinders on the horse, right? We've got to put our blinders on and just run towards that goal as fast as we can. You don't care about what's going on over here or over here. You just get to the point where it's completely insignificant. [00:26:21] Even our smallest clients, once they get into momentum of growth and they see how easy growth can be, I mean, it takes work, but once they see that it's super doable and it's repeatable and they're adding doors like crazy, that goes away. Like I think there's always a competitive nature in our clients, and I like to leverage that in the beginning. So I, in some of my content in trainings, I'm like, Hey, if you want to crush your competition, do this or do it this way, or do this. And that brings out that competitive entrepreneurial side of themselves. But once they start getting into it, our challenge sometimes might be with some clients they like lose the drive because they start to see this is not so hard. [00:26:58] But hopefully they get inspired and excited to like, take things to the next level. Right. Okay.  [00:27:03] I don't think they so much lose drive. I think it's just that it's shifted. It's a like you versus me. Versus like, I'm just doing what I'm doing. It's me versus me now. And that, like, that's happened with me in my business a couple times where like I'm like, oh, it's me versus my competition. [00:27:21] Like it's me versus that guy down the street. It's me versus like every other like management company and my area. And it's not, it's only me versus me. I have to outdo what I did yesterday or last year or last month. Like it's it just changes because you start playing a game with yourself instead of trying to worry about like, I'm, I've got to beat you. [00:27:44] Jason: Well, your power and achievement. So this all makes a lot of sense, hearing how you think, but some of our clients are not, and like one of our clients like Mark and Brandon, they had gotten to a point, they'd been adding doors and then they got comfortable and they were like, and I think what happens is they had this big goal to like leave their day jobs and get a bunch of doors and they did that and then they were like, well, then they lost a little bit of steam. So I think what happens with a lot of entrepreneurs is we have this away motivator. Like we're trying to get away from something. We want to get away from a job we don't like, or we want to get away from scarcity or starving or whatever. Right? We have this, we're trying to run away from this saber tooth tiger that's chasing after us each month, and then we have to shift towards some sort of toward motivator. [00:28:31] So with them in my coaching call, I had to like help them identify what is? We talked about their why, which is their personal why, which is something that we get into deeply with clients and each of their, what they want. And how do we connect their why to the business now? Like what do they want more of or what do they want to move towards? And so that kind of lit them up again. And so we have to find that toward motivator. And we've gotten off track the education and collaboration, but, all right, but that's the idea. All right, so let's go to Article six vi. All right. Allegiance to our core values. "We affirm our allegiance to the core values that guide our business. We will strive to uphold integrity, transparency, excellence, and client centricity in all our operations, and we shall not waver in times of adversity." I love the shalls. All right, so we're big on core values. We help our clients define their core values. We even took a look at our individual values and then figured out what should they be for the business and took a fresh look. [00:29:41] And they were, we had a lot of alignment and we didn't really change much, I don't think we changed any, anything on the company core values.  [00:29:49] Sarah: No. We added like one, one sentence. Yeah. But I think mine, if I were to add one is just. Do whatever it takes. Right? Do whatever it takes. Like we have a do whatever it takes mindset and if that means you have to come out of your comfort zone, you come out of your comfort zone. That means you have to make phone calls? You make phone calls. Yeah. If that means you have to, do whatever. It's like ethically, of course. But if you have to do things that don't. Seem fun or like, these are not my normal job duties. [00:30:20] Well, that's okay. Like, we're going to, we're going to do it because that's what we need in the business.  [00:30:26] Jason: So I think it's important for property managers to be really clear on their values. So, so you, as an entrepreneur, if you're listening to this, you need to be very clear on your values. Not like 10 values or 20 values or infinite values. You need to figure out what are your, like top three maybe four values that if everybody on your team believed these, they would be great team members. They would fit you. And that's something we help clients work on. But I think it's super important to have values in the business because it that's the how you go about doing everything in the business. [00:31:02] And if you're worried about how your team members are going to do things, it's because they don't share your values. You can work all day on the whats. You can define every process and try to micromanage, but you cannot control how you need people that fit your culture. You cannot create that in them. You have to find the right people that have the right culture and the right values. Values come from mom and dad, God, religion, whatever, right? DNA, I don't know, genetics, but people have their values somewhat hardwired, and you're not going to really move the needle on their values. So you got to find people that fit them  [00:31:36] All right article, what are we up to? Six. Seven. Seven, okay. Article seven. All right. Pursuit of holistic success. [00:31:47] "We vow to pursue not just financial success. But the overall wellbeing and fulfillment in our personal and professional lives. We will commit to creating balance that nurtures our personal growth relationships and contributions to society." [00:32:03] All right. It's pretty good. So a holistic success. I mean, this really is I've never, I don't know, like. I used to like tag myself on Facebook when I would create a post, that'd say, holistic business coach or something like this. Because that's the idea. Holistic means it encompasses our personal life, our business, and that's why in our podcast intro it says " and our mission at DoorGrow is to transform property management, business owners and their businesses." So we have a strong holistic approach.  [00:32:34] Sarah: Yeah. For sure. I was it Ed Mylet that said it at Funnel Hacking Live last year? It might have been Ed Mylet. I'm going to have to look it up. Sorry Ed, if it was not you. So I think he said if the game for you is making money, if you're just in this to make money and that's all you care about, you are not going to make very much of it. You just won't because that's the only thing you're focused on and you don't care about anything else. But if instead, oh, it might have been Russell Brunson. Oh God, I owe one of them an apology.  [00:33:03] Jason: We heard it. We heard it at Funnel Hacking Live Conference. It was Funnel Hacking live at conference. So I can tell you that for sure. So, and it was either Ed Millet or Russell Brunson. I can tell you that too. They probably both said something similar.  [00:33:13] Sarah: So credit to both. But if you're only focused on making money, you're not going to make very much of it. You won't be very successful. However, if your focus is on helping people. Now you're going to be successful and you'll make a whole bunch of money. So if money is the thing that you're after, it's just going to feel like really hard. [00:33:34] It's going to be really, really draining for you. But if we're focused on like, Hey, how can I, primarily, first and foremost, how can I help people? That's the thing that's going to unlock all of the money for you.  [00:33:47] Jason: This is where your business mission becomes client-centric. This is where it becomes outward focused and our personal why should be outward focused as well, right? This is where we start to have that impact, but everybody wants to have some sort of different impact. We're all unique, so I think it's important to discover that. We talk about the four reasons, like moving towards more greater fulfillment, freedom, contribution, and support is why we have a business as motivators, and if you're moving towards that and you're committed to creating a balance in your business and personal life and personal growth and relationships and contributions to society, right, then you're going to have a much more profitable business. You're going to enjoy it more. Your team are going to be more inspired to work for you and be part of this vision and this mission. [00:34:39] So I like this article. It's a good one. That's the last one. So this ends this way. "Let this declaration serve as a compass that guides our actions, decisions, and collaborations with resolve and unity. Let us forge a path that transforms not just our own lives, but the entire property management industry for the betterment of the communities we serve. Signed your name and all fellow DoorGrow Hackers." All right. So I like that. Yeah, we're using that. That's pretty good. We're going to keep that. Maybe we'll post that somewhere. Yeah. All right. And that's basically it. Anything else we should add? I mean, we want, we all want more freedom and there's probably something that you feel like right now is holding you back. [00:35:22] You don't feel free. You wake up in the morning and maybe you don't feel like you are excited to go to work or excited to take that next phone call or excited to do property management. You may not feel a sense of freedom right now. You may not even think it's possible in that industry, so I promise you it is absolutely possible. We've helped lots of clients do this, and it can happen a lot faster than you realize as well. So you can have freedom and you can have freedom from bad clients. You can have freedom from bad deals. You can have freedom from bad phone calls. You can have freedom from bad team members. You can have freedom from all the bad stuff that you want to have freedom from. [00:36:02] So, all right, what should people do? Let's give them a call to action.  [00:36:07] Sarah: Well, I think the easiest thing to do is work with a great coach. Might be us, might be somebody else. I'm a bit biased.  [00:36:16] Jason: It should be us and you should reach out to DoorGrow. Go to DoorGrow.com and join our Facebook group, which you can get to at... [00:36:25] Sarah: I don't know.  [00:36:25] Jason: DoorGrowClub.com. doorgrowclub.com. Join our Facebook group community, and this will start getting you connected and indoctrinated. We're going to convince you to believe in yourself and we're going to convince you to also believe in DoorGrow. And then we're going to help you win through DoorGrow and we're going to change your life. This is what we do at DoorGrow. So, If you want some help. Otherwise, join our Facebook group and eventually reach out once you realize that you want our help. And until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.  [00:36:57] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:37:24] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Join us for another episode as we dive into the world of communities with the Eddy Augusto, the community facilitator of the Humane Marketing Circle. Eddy shares thought-provoking perspectives on the distinction between communities and audiences, drawing from real-life examples, talks about the essence of "Community" and explains the numerous benefits of communities, for its members and the brand. Eddy's definition, "When at least two people begin to feel concern for each other's welfare," encapsulates the spirit of community. Listen to this episode if you're considering to host your own community, or be part of one. In this amazing episode Eddy and I talk about: the definition of a community, and how it's different from an audience the criteria of a healthy community how communities benefit the members as well as the brand our own experience within the Humane Marketing Circle and much more --- Ep 171 transcription [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. [00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. [00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. [00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 50. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash Coaching. [00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. Dot marketing. [00:02:30] Hello friends. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Partnership, and if you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, big warm welcome. [00:02:50] You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at [00:03:00] humane. marketing forward slash one. Page, the number one and the word page. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. [00:03:13] So partnership is probably my favorite P of the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. It's also my priority among the 17 sustainable development goals. Uh, goal number 17 is also about, about partnership. So I really think like we, uh, Win if we collaborate more and so I made that really my priority this year with the collaborative workshops that I'm hosting for the members of the humane marketing circle, but also they're open to the public and I bring in these different people that I think are very, very smart, uh, human beings that have a certain expertise that does members of the circle [00:04:00] and, uh, the outside community are interested in. [00:04:03] And this, these collaborations have been just so joyful. They like, they, they were so. Easy to set up, they're fun to organize. And so, yeah, I'm going to continue with these, uh, partnerships for sure. So today we talk about the P of partnership to a community or within the community. And I bring you our very own Eddie Augusto, the community facilitator of our Humane Marketing Circle to talk about communities. [00:04:37] So Eddie is an entrepreneur and self directed learning facilitator with a background in computer science and computer engineering. He decided to pursue a more authentic and innovative path in his career and personal life. He specializes in community building, collaboration, and self directed. education. [00:04:58] He holds a degree [00:05:00] in socio environmental design from Gaia University, collaborative project design from Colab Design, and self directed learning architecture from Masters of Learning, along with other certifications in non violent communication and agile learning. Currently, Eddie works as a community designer, facilitator, and manager, helping businesses to create an environment where people feel belonging and care for each other. [00:05:26] with their customers. Eddie also works as a mentor, helping people to live an intentional lifestyle, purposefully and consciously seeking to align their actions, choices, and values with their personal goals and values. He believes that communities that learn together are the future and works to assist them in developing these collaborative. [00:05:48] Learning skills. In this amazing episode with Eddie, we talk about the definition of a community and how it's different from an audience, the [00:06:00] criteria of a healthy community, how communities benefit the members as well as the brand, our own experience with the Humane Marketing Circle, and so much more. [00:06:11] I'm just so thrilled to share this conversation with you. So here's Eddie and I talking about communities. [00:06:21] So good to speak to you. It's a, it's a different setting, but it's still just us. Right. So really excited to have you on the humane marketing podcast.  [00:06:31] Eddy: Very happy to be here, Sarah, to talk about a subject that I love, which is communities.  [00:06:37] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, you are the, I guess as a, as a, an introduction, you are the community facilitator for the Humane Marketing Circle. [00:06:48] I think it would be a funny story to tell how I came across you. So I actually found you on Fiverr of all places, right? So I was looking [00:07:00] for a community. I think I probably put in community manager. That's usually the term that I was familiar with. And, and then I just kind of, you know, saw what was there. [00:07:11] And, and immediately when you were, uh, you were very, you know, how you are also in person, how I know you are, you're very firm about your beliefs. And I love that about you. And it was like very clear on this fiber page. It said, I only work with. Purpose driven or something like that you explain who you work with and, you know, that's the only work you're interested in. [00:07:36] So I'm like, yeah, this is my guy. So that's That's how we, uh, got in touch and it's just, uh, yeah, it's when I think back, it's like Fiverr out of all places, but yeah, people always ask me, have you ever been lucky with Fiverr? I'm like, I have been lucky very, uh, quite a few times with Fiverr, so. Here we are. [00:07:56] It's probably a year later and [00:08:00] I'm talking about communities now. So, yeah, why don't we start with, um, kind of like an introduction to communities, you know, maybe, like, maybe we can start with. defining communities, you know, what is, what is a community? What makes a community?  [00:08:19] Eddy: Yeah, sure. Um, so community is a very old word, right? [00:08:28] Uh, which has a very broad meaning as well. And then community would be individuals who have, who share something, who share a purpose or who share a place where they live, um, and for, for, uh, but this meaning is not enough for us to, to talk about, uh, what we want to talk here about and what I like to talk about, um, is about intentional communities.[00:09:00]  [00:09:00] Where we are a community because we want to be a community. So there is an intention of being part. It doesn't happen by, by, by accident. Uh, so I think this is the first thing to, to, to say the difference between a community by accident, like a class, for instance. Um, or an intentional community here. I think we will talk about the intention community where people, they have a clear purpose and they want to connect, um,  [00:09:33] Sarah: Rather than in a class where you have to be there, right? [00:09:37] Eddy: Yes, exactly. So the, the word community has been used in so many ways, uh, mainly lately. And I don't really like that, to be honest, I like to, when I talk about community, I am speaking of something which is not just [00:10:00] people having the same purpose, but they have connection between them, they care about each other and there is this sense of care, genuine care. [00:10:11] So, and we could give an example, would a gym be... community, right? Uh, well, people, they have the same purpose. They go there to, to get fit. Um, well, it could be, but it's not necessarily right. So people can go in and go out without saying a word to each other, without knowing each other's name. Uh, but they can also do something like CrossFit has been doing. [00:10:39] Uh, they start, they can start to train together and to go for challenges together, uh, right? So, they can build the community. Um, so that's why I like to, to point out that we are speaking about intentional communities and that intentional communities is not... Neither social media. I really see like, [00:11:00] as you said, you looked for a community manager and in my page in Fiverr. [00:11:04] It was written very well. I don't take care of social media and someone and someone who's normally looking for a for a community manager as most of people call it. Uh, they would be like, then what do you do, what do you do? [00:11:23] Now,  [00:11:23] Sarah: it's so true. And what you say about this, uh, fact that, you know, community, it's almost like a buzzword now, everybody uses it. And I think what you're also addressing is the idea of, uh, An audience versus a community, because that's where I see it, uh, misused often in, you know, kind of this online space, people are calling their. [00:11:49] Audiences communities. So like they would call their Facebook group, uh, community, which again, we could argue that maybe there is a [00:12:00] common purpose. Um, for a Facebook group. But the big question is really, well, are they connected with each other? Or are they only connected to the guru, you know, the leader of this audience and even more is there a selling intention from the guru to the audience, right? [00:12:22] That's really where the difference is between a community that cares and that there's care in between the members and the community leader that only cares about his wallet being filled. And so then, then it's more an audience. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:12:39] Eddy: Yes, exactly. Um, yeah, this difference between like managing your audience and building a community. [00:12:49] And I think we can, we can give some principles to understand it better. And we could say that a community, an intentional community, what we are [00:13:00] speaking of here right now, uh, is something that is purpose driven. So it is not for, uh, of course, we all want to earn money with the community as well. We want everybody to earn a lot of money and have abundance in their lives. [00:13:16] But it is purpose driven and it is relationships first. So, like, It is not about the image of the guru of the boss, and it is about building relationships. Um, we could measure the quality of this community by the amount of connections that there are and the strength of the connections between the people. [00:13:40] Um, and I think there is also this continuous improvement on how we can better manage this community, how we can improve the connections between people. And also I think, and so I think this is, this would be like the basic principles that can already [00:14:00] differentiate, uh, from audience, right? And I think we can learn a lot from indigenous people. [00:14:07] Um, they teach us a lot about community. And personally myself, I was first interested in live communities, like people living together, having a common common sense and et cetera. And then later on, I started to study how we could also, how might we create that online in the pandemics? And it is, and then I discovered that it is possible and technology is here for that. [00:14:38] We can use technology with. Um, with a clear purpose and with intentionality, and we can build communities online and, and actually one of the best things that communities online make is to make real friends who will find each other in real life as well. Yeah. So the two worlds, [00:15:00] they, they merge. Right. And I  [00:15:03] Sarah: would just, would you, would you agree? [00:15:05] Sorry, go on. Yeah. Would you agree to say that? Um, you know, this is obviously the ideal picture of a community. Um, and I feel like in the humane marketing circle, we're getting there. And there's definitely already a lot of connections happening in between members. Uh, we see projects being created. Uh, and yet, It is, I think, as a community leader, if we now talk from the community facilitator point of view, leader point of view, it is probably really one of the things that, um, I wouldn't say hard, but it's like That's, they need still support with that. [00:15:50] You can't just assume, Oh, we now have the people and now just, you know, be all happy and friends. Um, so I feel like that's something that we are [00:16:00] constantly working on in the, in the circle. So, so, and that's what you're working on as well. And, and you're, you are, um, creating these network weaving calls as we, as we call them. [00:16:12] So, so. Really focusing, actually, I'll let you explain them. So, so how does the net weaving calls feed into these interrelationships between the community members?  [00:16:26] Eddy: Right. I love this point that you are bringing up now because yeah, sometimes people think that it is just put all these people in the same room and let them speak to each other, but our education is such that we are, um, We are used to some kind of behavior, some kind of ways to, um, to connect or to, to keep disconnected, uh, when we are engaging with people in conversations, when we are meeting new [00:17:00] people. [00:17:00] Uh, and there is also like, uh, we, we sometimes need some time to break the ice and et cetera. Uh, so I really think that the facilitation, uh, now speaking about community facilitation, it is about setting the space, uh, for, for the connections to happen. And these we make with pro, uh, appropriate, appropriate. [00:17:24] Uh, methods and appropriate tools. Uh, so we design, will it be one by one in, in, in breakout rooms? Uh, what will be the question that will, that we will bring for them to wander and to talk about? Uh, so we, we try to design something that gets out of the, um, uh, the normal, the conventional, right? Because then we get out of the, of, of the automatic. [00:17:51] And then we can really get to know each other for real. And from this point, we build stronger relationships in much [00:18:00] less time. So I think it is all about that. And the net weaving connections that we make in, in our, uh, in our community. And also, I bring this in every community that I work with, my community or as a service. [00:18:17] The net weaving connections, the net weaving call, sorry, is a moment that is, the main purpose is to build connections with people. And it is funny because normally, most of the people, they take time to see the importance of that. They don't want to go there. No. Go there just to meet people, you know? Yeah, I don't have time  [00:18:41] Sarah: for  [00:18:41] Eddy: that, right? [00:18:42] Exactly. It's not my, my, my priority to meet people, you know, but I'm coming to the conclusion more and more over time that it is exactly this meeting people with intentionality. So it's not just about hanging out with whoever, wherever, [00:19:00] and speaking about whatever as well. Uh, but it is about being in a specific place with a specific shared purpose, with a specific designed space, uh, for the thing to happen. [00:19:12] And I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that this very thing is... What brings us more partnerships in business and more health and more, uh, there is a very recent research that I love that they have researched the whole life of a bunch of people in the United States. From childhood until, until, um, uh, late, uh, until, until 80s, you know, and they have showed that one of the main things that people, uh, who, who have been happy in most of their lives they have in common is that they have strong family connections, strong [00:20:00] friend connections. [00:20:01] And, and I think that it is very important for us to keep that in mind, like, what is the final purpose in the end? What it is all about, you know, uh, making business and et cetera, and making partners going here and there, taking an airplane, uh, making people, um, passing time and hours and hours, spending hours in front of the computer sometimes. [00:20:24] What it is all about. Bye bye. And for me, it is really about being self, uh, feeling self, self fulfilled, feeling happy, uh, feeling that we are useful. And as this research shows, I will look for the link later on, and then if you want, you can put it in the description. Yeah, um, well. It really, it is really about the connections we make. [00:20:50] So, um, yeah.  [00:20:52] Sarah: You know, as you're talking, um, I'm thinking of another, uh, word that we often use in the business language, which is the [00:21:00] networking group, right? And so that's another kind of confusion that some people confuse a community with a networking group or a networking group with a community. And so I think it's really important also to point out that a community, at least our community and the way I think you see and I see communities is not a networking group. [00:21:23] So it's not a place where you just come to, uh, you know, get clients and create business. And I think that's the new kind of reality that we're creating, uh, in the Humane Marketing Circle, which is a community that is business oriented because we're mainly talking about marketing and growing our business, uh, in a different way. [00:21:48] And yet it relies on friendship and personality, personal connections, and authenticity, uh, first, right? So that is, [00:22:00] So different from the typical networking events that I ever went to not really doing them anymore, but where you are just showing up as a business person. Uh, what we're trying to create, uh, in the, in the community is. [00:22:16] Holistic community, I guess. It's like where you show up as a whole person. You are, uh, you know, on one hand, yes, you are in business. You are a business person, but the friendships, they don't happen so much on the business level. They happen on the personal level. And that's why we're kind of creating these spaces where. [00:22:37] We're allowing, you know, the whole human to, to be there and connect on this deeper level. That is never the personal, the business level. It's always the personal level. Right. And so we find like communities that are business oriented. Are probably even harder to create, uh, at least the [00:23:00] way we want to create them because it's like this mindset shift. [00:23:02] It's like, Oh, I'm not just coming to get something, but I'm also coming to give and really invest that time. It's a slower approach to, to business in a way. Would you, would you agree with that?  [00:23:18] Eddy: Yes, for sure. This, there is a question that I love to bring in net weaving calls, which is who are you besides your work? [00:23:27] Exactly. You know, because we are so used. Oh, Sarah, what do you do for a living? And then you start to speak about what brings you money in your life, you know, but this is just a tiny part of Sarah. And in the problem, let's let's talk about a bit about the problem, right about business oriented, um, kinds of community, if we call that, um, well, there is [00:24:00] so many people. [00:24:01] With so many clients and so many, so much money, and yet they don't feel self-fulfilled yet, they don't feel happy about what they do, and I think this is what we are trying to do differently. We are trying to make business. As it goes along with our purpose, with our mission, with our life, with who we are, we don't need to use a mask. [00:24:27] Uh, we can expand our being, uh, in connection to people. And I think this is all about, um, marketing as we are humans. And this is all about, um, community in the way we are talking here. Intentional, intentional communities. It is about taking, uh, getting out of this. Automatic way of doing everything, um, which is quite a void, empty. [00:24:55] We feel empty in the end and, and realizing that and trying to do [00:25:00] things, uh, with meaning and with consciousness, uh, bringing consciousness to everything that we are doing. And I think that community is like the one, the only way that we can go. Yeah,  [00:25:13] Sarah: yeah, yeah. No, so true. What I just also thought is that, um, You know, usually in business, you have these membership sites or kind of like learning programs where the idea is to have everybody at the same level so that then there is something that is being taught and we go through a program and then, you know, you take people from level A to level B. [00:25:39] And so it's intentional that everybody is in the same level. Uh, if I think about a community, let's take, you know, an, an inden indigenous community or, uh, you know, I grew up in a hippie community, right? Uh, there was not everybody at the same level. Everybody had different experiences. Everybody had, you know, [00:26:00] different age. [00:26:01] Um, and so that's also what we're trying to build into, uh, the humane marketing circle. It's not, For, you know, only for beginner business owners or only for business owners that make six figures or, you know, that horrible language that we don't like, um, it really is kind of like all over the spectrum because, um, everybody needs community. [00:26:26] It's not like, oh, only these, you know, people need community, only beginners need community or only experts need community. I think that's an essential part. And I actually think that, you know, people come with different things that they can bring and different things that they need. So if I think about the people in the community who have more experience, um, They, they, what they want is maybe to, you know, come as mentors and share their knowledge and, [00:27:00] and create, uh, other visibility, uh, opportunities for themselves. [00:27:04] They don't need so much of the, you know, initial advice. But they still feel like they're being seen and heard and recognized and, and useful. Right. And I think that's also a new concept in the business world. It's like, Oh, we don't just put everybody in the same bucket. We're actually kind of looking at, uh, people as a whole and, and accept everybody and bring everybody in as a leader in their chair, wherever they are in there. [00:27:33] Experience. How does this apply to other communities that you that you have seen or worked with?  [00:27:41] Eddy: Um, yeah, I, I see these that you're saying, like, uh, as a belief that comes from military things, you know, and then, and then it gets to the school where we separate, uh, children by age, you know, Uh, and it looks like we are getting, you [00:28:00] know, uh, older and then we are getting smarter because we have, uh, understood more content. [00:28:07] But in the end, as you say, like, there is such a big opportunity when we, when we merge, uh, beginners with people who are experienced. And, um, and I see it as, uh, the ideal, actually, the ideal pool of a community for learning, uh, purpose, for learning purpose. I think it is this pool of beginners and experienced people. [00:28:34] And I think that the way it also, uh, our, uh, our, our role as community managers, uh, for in this, uh, is to realize the participation of people, what they are giving and pointing it out for the whole community. Uh, hey, um, hey, Sarah, hey, hey, community, uh, Sarah this month, she took a lot of [00:29:00] energy to build this and that for you. [00:29:02] Uh, hey, community. Eddie this month he is offering a session, you know, let's thanks, uh, Adam because he was this month, uh, you know, taking care of the community. So we are like pointing out and bringing attention to the, um, um, to what people are doing for the well, for the welfare of the others. Um, and I think And this is a way to, because yeah, the more experienced people, how can we, how can they feel like they are learning and getting the best of it by practicing what they already have experienced or by learning how to teach what they already have experienced. [00:29:44] So we, we can give more responsibility. And then here we, we are already starting to talk about benefits for the brand, because even if we are not. Driven by, uh, by money. And when we are driven by [00:30:00] purpose, uh, a brand can be driven by purpose. And what are the benefits for the brand, right? Um, I'm going from one, uh, I'm connecting, right? [00:30:11] Uh, subject to the other one, just to say that, yeah, the benefit for, for the brand is, and for the members as well, is Having, uh, in a life space of learning, of constant learning. And because... When people, they identify themselves, um, to, to this place where they feel welcome and they feel belonging. They want to talk about it. [00:30:44] They want to be part of it. They want to bring new people to, to this place because they love being there. Um, and I'm, and it is real, you know, it's how I feel. So I think this is the benefit that, uh, the brand has. [00:31:00] Because we are, we are really talking about loyalty with members. We are talking about extra value out of contribution and collaboration from members who are willing to do what they are doing. [00:31:15] We, we don't even have to ask them because they love being part of the thing and they want to contribute. Uh, and for me the, this is amazing, you know, and for the members, And the benefits for the members, um, I see like, you know, we, what in the end, how do we learn things, uh, new things in the end, right? How do we really actually learn? [00:31:45] It is not just by reading a book, it is not just by, by taking on a course, uh, and it is not just by being in a WhatsApp group. Um, we really [00:32:00] learn stuff. When we are exposed to new information, and then we are able to test it with what we already believe, what we already know. And then we have a safe space to make new trials with this new information that we've got. [00:32:21] And then we obtain knowledge from, from this. Uh, tests that we have tried, right? And for me, uh, this is the thing about community. What I, what, what we are coming to the conclusion, I feel like it is a world movement. We are understanding that we are finding finally getting that is that being around people who resonate with you, uh, and who want to learn. [00:32:49] Things that are similar to what you want to learn is the best way to learn whatever you want to learn because you have a space. to be [00:33:00] exposed to that, to learn new things and to test out your new ideas. And then you really have in your body the knowledge, um, and you have a place to practice. So I think this is what we are coming to the conclusion. [00:33:15] And this is the importance of community. It is like the difference between, um, taking on a yoga retreat of one week and our. are living with yoga people, you know, and practicing and seeing them practicing every morning, every morning you wake up, you wake up late, they are practicing yoga, you wake up late, they finished their yoga, you know, like after a week, you're like, okay, I'm going to wake up today a bit earlier now try to practice with them. [00:33:45] And I think By managing our context, uh, architecting our context with intentionality is the best way for us to learn. And this is all community is  [00:33:58] Sarah: about. [00:34:00] Yeah, so true. And it reminds me of what's on the on the invitation page for the humane marketing circle. I think I said something like, you know, we we talk about and figure out what works for us in marketing, because there's so much content out there that tells you how you should be doing marketing. [00:34:21] Right. And so I feel like Yes, I could teach my way of marketing, which I do in the Marketing Like a Human program, but what I really want to offer is this space and place where we can talk about what works for us and then figure out, um, or, or, yeah, we share what works for each of us and then we can figure out, oh, That works for her. [00:34:46] Let me try that and see how that works for me. And since our values are aligned, our worldview is aligned, then there is a much higher chance that your idea will work for me because it's ethically aligned, right? [00:35:00] Rather than going, Oh yeah, but that doesn't really sound good. So, so it's, it's, yeah, it's exactly what you, you said. [00:35:07] I thought of another benefit that members often say is this idea of the the global community, right? So yes, we are aligned. Yes, we have the same values, the same worldview, and yet we come from different places. You were in Brazil. There's members from different countries in Europe. There's members from the U. [00:35:27] S. And so it brings us these different perspectives that really helps us also then look at things with a different eye and go on. That's how they do it. Or, you know, also different topics like it. In the circle, we, you know, me, we mainly talk about marketing and business, but you know, obviously politics comes up and, and, and I do talk about ethical behavior. [00:35:58] And, and so it's nice to have [00:36:00] different opinions and different things that people, uh, bring in because we are a global community and, and yet we're all part of this shared humanity. So I feel like the global aspect and learning from each other. In this way is so enriching compared to let's say I do an online course at home and you know, I'm just in my office and I'm just learning by myself. [00:36:23] It's not the same, not the same thing, right? Um, the other thing that, um, you kind of touched upon because you mentioned Adam and Adam is one of our members and he's also one of the ambassadors. So that's another way that more experienced members is. Um, get kind of this, um, you know, value for them, but also value to the community because, uh, we have in, in the circle for example, we have three ambassadors who are then taking turns in, in hosting the calls. [00:36:58] And so that is, [00:37:00] For me, when I started that, I was like, this is exactly what I wanted. I don't want to be the only reference person in this community. A community is never ego driven or guru driven. It's, it is, you know, based on different people. And so it's just so amazing to see, you know, Adam, Rachel and Kelly bring in their perspectives and hosting their calls. [00:37:25] And, um, yeah, I'm just curious, uh, if you see that working in other communities as well, this ambassador model.  [00:37:35] Eddy: Yeah, so this is what we would call the badges. This is a very known feature for our communities. And a place that has been using, uh, very well all this knowledge about communities is the Web3 projects. [00:37:53] If you navigate a bit on these new projects about cryptocurrencies and everything, uh, they are [00:38:00] actually making a very good use of all these tools, creating very intentional groups on, on, on Discord, for instance. And in gaming people as well, they also make a very good use of these tools that can reinforce the strength of a community and the badges, for instance, we can we can have, um, when people they they have, they and something like normally mature communities, they will have few few circles that are inner circles and there are outer circles. [00:38:39] But the goal is not to get to the inner circle. Each circle has its own reason, and people can choose whether they want to be, you know, in the visitor space, or they want to be a resident, you know, or they want to be an ambassador. And I really think about [00:39:00] communities of people who live together, for instance. [00:39:04] You don't necessarily want to live there. You might just want to pass the day. Or you might want, or you might want to make a volunteering, um, or you might want to try to become a resident and then the, uh, the community might have a status for you while you understand the values and while, uh, you get to really understand if it resonates to you and the community, if you resonate to it. [00:39:31] Um. until a day you become a leader in the community as well. So I think this is all the, the badges, they are actually a way to symbolize and to represent what is already happening. It's the status that are already happening in the communities, in the circles. Uh, in the groups and we are just making it visible and making it [00:40:00] intentional. [00:40:00] Uh, here are the types of presence that you can have in this place. And this one means this and that one means that, you know, these are the responsibilities of this one and that one. Um, what do you want to, to, to be, you know, how do you want to be part of it? And if you, if you want to be, uh, in. Ambassador, it might have a way until you get there because the ambassadors are mainly, are maybe people who already understand, uh, very well, the, the core values of the business and et cetera. [00:40:36] So, uh, right. So the badges. Uh, really this thing about seeing what are the roles that, that we have in the community and it is not about creating it, like designing all the thing. Okay. We'll have these and that, and that badge, it is to create as, as it comes actually, uh, to, well, there is a, [00:41:00] there is a, uh, a person, the community is growing. [00:41:03] We had just one. one layer in the beginning. Normally, the communities, they start having one layer, which is, are you a part of it or you are not? Uh, the only day later, and then the community starts to get bigger and bigger, let's say, and then you start to see that you are not managing by yourself. And then you see that there are two members who are very participative and they want to take on more responsibility. [00:41:31] They love being part of that. They want to offer more. And then you create a badge for them to say, Hey, you are an ambassador now, and they will love to be recognized by the, by the effort that they make, um, people will also understand what is the difference they will understand. Okay, these people, they. [00:41:52] You know, uh, they are here for a longer period. They understand better. They can help me if I need help. Uh, I can count [00:42:00] on them. Uh, that's why he or she is leading this session, you know? So I really think it is all about making clear and pointing out what will naturally happen inside the group of people. [00:42:15] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. And by saying that naturally happened, I think it really comes to this patience and slow growth. It is, unless, you know, you have a big brand in, in, in, in your, your community is around, uh, an existing kind of, um, maybe the audience that turns into a community, but otherwise, if you're, you know, starting out with a handful of people, it will go through these stages of growth and it's normal that, you know, first, um, yeah, you, you really have to kind of, I think the biggest thing is you have to. [00:42:55] Let go of, um, at least at the [00:43:00] stage where the ambassadors come in, it really, it's growing, um, into something that is Beyond you as a person, right before maybe you're the only one kind of hosting it and managing it. But once the ambassadors come in, and then you have a community facilitator. Now it's bigger than you. [00:43:21] It's not your community anymore. It's the community. And that's why these roles then just naturally evolve and happen because The feedback comes from the community. It's not you. So more, so much designing it anymore. And, and, and that's what's beautiful. But again, in a business context, I would say that it takes some learning. [00:43:45] I, I know that it did for me. It takes some learning to look at it in a different way. To look at, uh, the, as a community, not as a. Business project so much, but more as this natural thing that has [00:44:00] its own it is its own entity and it will grow if you give it the space to grow and the time as well, so I feel like we're. [00:44:12] Kind of coming to to the end. But I want to ask you if we forgot anything that you absolutely wanted to to mention. What would what would you say for closing words about communities?  [00:44:29] Eddy: Yeah, uh, yeah, I'll just say a word about what you're saying. That is, uh, I love to say the phrase that my role has been fulfilled. [00:44:40] If people, they come in, they come in the end and they say, Oh, we have done it by ourselves. Uh, it is a bit ungrateful, but you know, it is the way it should be, you know. I shouldn't be expecting to be the center of the attention. If my, my intention is really that [00:45:00] people learn the best they can, they get the best they can. [00:45:03] Um, if they think they have done everything by themselves, they don't even realize what I have, uh, acted in the place for that to happen. Um, well, this is the ideal actually, you know? So I think it is really about that, about, uh, this creating this space. for, for everyone to learn together and to build friendships that leads to business as well. [00:45:29] We are, we have been saying over and over, it is not about business and not about making money, but this is actually, it is exactly, but it is another way of making money. It is about making money as we, uh, fulfill our purpose. And the more we fulfill our purpose, more we make money. I think this is the thing, right? [00:45:55] Yeah. Um, and I think the le I just want to mention a, a last thing and [00:46:00] then say, uh, a phrase to sum it up. Um, you, you talked about the importance of diversity as well, and. It is very important to point out that, uh, it's very easy to resonate on values. Like, we all value respect, we all, we all value silence, we all value this and that, uh, uh, collaboration. [00:46:25] But the way that we, uh, actually understand respect or silence or collaboration or love are very different from culture to culture, from family to family, from person to person. And this will lead also to conflicts. And this is part of community. This is very important. If your community never has any conflict, then you have a pseudo community. [00:46:54] It is something that you are calling a community, but it doesn't, it didn't test yet [00:47:00] the reality, you know? And the reality is such that we have different understanding of our same values. We all value the same thing, but we think this is something different. Uh, you think something different. And testing this and bringing it to, to, um, you know, building it together. [00:47:19] Okay. How might we understand in the practice, what respect means and how we, how might we value that as a community, uh, testing this reality through conflict is very important. So, uh, this is part of community and I just wanted to point it out.  [00:47:41] Sarah: And it's part of our role to hold the space for that. To be able to hold the space. [00:47:46] To welcome. Yeah. To welcome. To welcome it. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. And that obviously means that we are continuously doing our inner work so that we can show up as these grounded people who are able [00:48:00] to hold the space and don't. React and you know, go immediately into reaction. Um, so yeah, it's a it comes with with, uh, I would say great responsibility as well to to be facility community facility facilitators because it's more than just an online thing, right? [00:48:21] These are real human. connections that are happening with, with all the baggage that we come with, uh, as well. So, yeah, thank you.  [00:48:34] Eddy: There is a book for those who want to read more about that, uh, from Scott Peck, a different drum, it is called, and he says there are four stages of community, pseudo community. [00:48:47] And then it goes to the conflict where we start to realize that we have different, uh, understandings of our values and it gets so big that we cannot, uh, keep to ourselves anymore. And then [00:49:00] it leads to emptiness where most of the people, they go away, they leave. Um, and then it can come to community. So we have to cross all these stages to build a real community. [00:49:12] How much time it takes? It depends if it is a retreat of one week, uh, one evening together, or one year program. It will take a different time. But the idea... The idea is to pass through the stages. And of course, when you get to community, then you are going to sell the community again, right? Hopefully. [00:49:35] Sarah: What's the name of the author? Say that again. Scott.  [00:49:38] Eddy: Scott Beck.  [00:49:39] Sarah: Beck. Okay. Well, make sure to add in the show  [00:49:43] Eddy: notes too. Yeah, sure. And then I just want to say a phrase and also mention another author that I really like. Um, so. The phrase, the phrase is that You are starting to have a community [00:50:00] when you have at least two people begin beginning to feel concerned for each other's welfare. [00:50:06] And the true measure of of a community success is not the size of its membership, but the depth. of the relationships and the strength of the shared purpose. So this is the perspective we are looking at. And I want to mention the author Charles Vogel, who have a book written, The Art of Community, where he gives principles and, you know, some, some steps and how you can build. [00:50:38] Uh, a community. And I also want to say that, uh, whoever is listening to this, uh, podcast, and if you are looking to, for learning more about community on, or how to establish a community, how to get more intentional with the community you already have, uh, feel free to, to look for [00:51:00] me. I'll be very happy to help you. [00:51:02] Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. I was going to get to that. So thanks so much for, for sharing, uh, everything we'll make sure to, to link to, to the two authors you mentioned. Um, yeah, please do not actually, before I ask you to share where people can find you. One more thing that I thought of in terms of diversity is the age, because I remember a kind of a friend or a mentor that I like in the marketing space, Mark Schaeffer, who also wrote a book about communities. [00:51:40] What is it called? It's called, uh, belonging to the brand, why community is the next big thing. Um, and so he, I think in the book said, or maybe it was when he was on my podcast, he said, in terms of the community facilitator, look for the youngest person out there. [00:52:00] And so I, I really feel like that's what I did. [00:52:03] Uh, you know, you're the wisest, youngest person I've met. And, and so I'm just really, yeah, happy to, to have you in the community and you bring this new perspective that I'm so interested in as well. For, uh, for, you know, the different business paradigm, the way we look at our relationship to work. So you, you bring all that as well. [00:52:27] Um, and I think the age diversity is equally important. I mean that for, you know, older people, um, But also for younger people, it's nice to have someone from a more experienced generation and bring that perspective in. So I think that's another thing that we can pay attention to when building these attentional communities. [00:52:51] Um, so yeah, please do share where people can find you. Um, is it Fiverr or do you have another place that's better? [00:53:00]  [00:53:00] Eddy: No, well, I think that my main, the main ways to reach me is LinkedIn. Uh, Instagram, WhatsApp, and I also have a blog, but it is completely in Portuguese for now in medium. So I would say Instagram, WhatsApp, and LinkedIn are the best ways. [00:53:20] Sarah: So we'll link to that in the show notes.  [00:53:23] Eddy: And yeah, just to, uh, I, I, I felt about, I feel about mentioning another, another author who is, uh, Jeff Walker. Do you know Jeff Walker? It is like a big name on marketing on launching, right? He has the book, The Launching Formula. In his book, the Launching Formula, he talks about being rich without money, which is tapping into the, the people results, right? [00:53:53] Right. So his energy is not into building financial [00:54:00] richness, but into building a strong, uh, relationship to people. Because then when he needs something, he knows he can rely on these people who already, who know him. who know what he does and et cetera. So when, even when we are talking about more, um, common marketing strategies, let's say even then, even there, uh, people are already talking about community and how we can shift from the perspective, uh, and how we can understand that. [00:54:32] richness is not necessarily the money in your account. Uh, and it is very related to the relations that you have to people and the connections, the strength of the connections and the shared purpose that you have, uh, with the people around you. Oh,  [00:54:48] Sarah: true. Yeah. I always have one last question that I ask every guest and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week? [00:54:59] Eddy: I'm very, [00:55:00] very grateful for this conversation because it, it, it brings every, it, it gets everything so alive inside me, you know, it, it's something that, uh, that I love to talk about. I'm really passionate about this subject and about the work that I do with this as well. So in this very moment, I feel very grateful for having this, uh, this talk with you. [00:55:26] Sarah: I'm grateful also that we're collaborating on this. So thanks, Eddie.  [00:55:32] Eddy: Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. [00:55:38] Sarah: I hope you got some great value and inspiration from listening to this episode. The best way to get more of Eddie is by joining our Humane Marketing Circle because he's there on every call. He's leading our net weaving calls and he's also facilitating our online community on Kajabi. So... Find out more [00:56:00] about the circle at humane. [00:56:02] marketing forward slash circle. If you'd like to get in touch with Eddie for your own community, you'll find him on Instagram or LinkedIn. And the links are on the show notes page. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash. H M 1 7 1. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. [00:56:36] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Transcription by CastingWords[00:57:00] 

with Sarah Ansboury, Pickleball Coach and Director of Pickleball Instruction at Palmetto Dunes Oceanfront Resort   The sport of Pickleball continues to be the fastest-growing sport in America. As the sport continues to grow in popularity, new courts are popping up all over the country. Currently, there are more than 10,000 courts in the United States but that number continues to grow by several dozen every month. So what is it about Pickleball that makes it such a popular fitness craze? One of the reasons the sport has become so popular in recent years is that it's a high-energy, low-impact game that appeals to players of all ages. It's fairly easy to learn and a great way to enjoy the outdoors and get moving. The open-play format allows players to show up and “rotate in,” which makes it especially attractive for singles. What a great way to socialize, meet others and get fit! Sports clubs and hotel groups such as Omni Resorts and Marriott , are adding courts for Pickleball, while a new restaurant chain called Chicken N' Pickle, which combines the sport with a full food and drink menu, has plans to expand within the next year throughout the U.S. At Chicken N' Pickle, you can make an evening of it and play Cornhole, Shuffleboard, and Ping Pong without having to go elsewhere to dine. So, if you want to learn more about the game everyone is talking about, please listen to Florine's interview with one of the top Pickleball coaches in the world, Sarah Ansboury.   What You'll Hear in This Episode: Where does the name pickleball come from? Do you have to know how to play tennis to play pickleball? The importance of taking a lesson or two before you go out and play. What attracted Sarah to pickleball? Why do so many people get injured playing pickleball? Where can you find a pickleball instructor? What happens at a pickleball camp? What kinds of shoes and outfits should you wear when playing pickleball? What type of paddle is the best to use for pickleball? Can you play pickleball on a tennis court? What is the most important advice for first-time players? Why has pickleball taken off in the last few years? What are the health benefits of pickleball? What is the future of pickleball and how can we get the next generation invested and just as excited? Is there a difference between indoor and outdoor pickleball? What is the single biggest frustration for new players?   Today's Takeaway: One of the reasons why Pickleball is popular is that it's a great way to socialize and meet people. Unlike many other leisure sporting activities, Pickleball is very inclusive and social. The fun, competitive nature of the sport and love of the game brings people together. You don't even need to show up with a partner. You can just simply “walk on and rotate in.” It's also a great way to stay fit or get in shape. Not only is it a good cardiovascular workout but it can also improve balance, hand-eye coordination, and muscle tone. Best of all, Pickleball can be played both indoors or out, so it's not weather-dependent. Remember that staying active and spending time socializing with others is one of the best gifts we can give ourselves. So if you're looking for a fun new activity, why not give yourself the gift of a Pickleball lesson? I'm Florine Mark and that's “Today's Takeaway.”   Quotes: “Pickleball is such a welcoming, open sport for everyone. People just want you to keep playing.” — Sarah  “There is a way to play properly, technically, that is going to be easier on your body.” — Sarah “The nice thing about pickleball is that you don't have to have a partner, you can just go out, and you always pick up a game.” — Florine  “The great thing about pickleball is it's much easier to learn than most other racquet or paddle sports, especially as an adult.” — Sarah “You will meet someone from every walk of life.” — Sarah “It's getting people active, it's getting people social.” — Sarah “At the end of the day, there's not a day or a week that goes by that I literally talk to someone where Pickleball has changed their life.” — Sarah “What I'm seeing so much is people's health just improving.” — Sarah “Be willing to get uncomfortable. A lot of times people, especially adults, are afraid to try something new, and so much of jumping into Pickleball is opening yourself up.” — Sarah   Brought to You By: Gardner White Furniture   Mentioned in This Episode: Sarah Ansboury  Palmetto Dunes — Hilton Head Island USA Pickleball Association  

Key Takeaways • Mindset is key! When you change your mindset to be more open to growth and focused on the present, you become more resilient and can overcome more challenges and fears. • Diaphragmatic breathing can be used as a mindfulness practice to help you slow down, recover, and focus on the present.  • Consistency is everything. Even if you feel like you are losing motivation, keep going anyway.    No matter what your fitness goals are, success starts with mindset. When fitness and health coach Sarah Martin first began training, she became obsessive over seeing results. Regardless of how much she pushed her limits, she still found herself unhappy with her body. She began to shift her mindset, focusing more on rest, recovery, nutrition, and breath work. When she started to spend more time being present in the moment, she began to enjoy her life much more. Now, Sarah has a podcast called Choosing Growth Over Fear where she helps people overcome their fears and live balanced, healthy lifestyles. Today, she speaks with host Dr. Andrew Fix about the importance of mindset for overall success.    So many people focus on the future or comparing themselves to others instead of focusing on themselves and the present moment. This can be detrimental to success in the long run. It is easy to get caught up in comparing your successes with others, but remember that your journey is yours alone. It will not be the same as others and that's okay! By adopting a growth mindset, you will be able to overcome fears and challenges that come your way with more resilience.    You are in control of your own journey to success. Instead of trying to speed run to the finish line, take time to be fully present for each step. You will enjoy life much more if you allow yourself to be present, and may find that more opportunities come your way as a result.  Quotes • “My whole mindset has shifted, because I understand that's when the muscle building process begins… I learned a lot about how important breath work is, and recovery.” (10:33 | Sarah)  • “You enjoy life more when you focus on just what's happening in the moment.” (13:57 | Sarah) • “When you are more open to growth, you're able to have more opportunities presented before you and you accept the fear, challenges, things that come your way more resiliently.” (30:42 | Sarah) • “You're in control of not only your actions, your attitude, but also your journey.” (33:55 | Sarah) • “Set small goals and celebrate those, because that's going to lead you to the big, significant results when you look back on your journey.” (45:53 | Sarah) • “What you do every single day is going to account for the quality of your life and the degree of your success. So, whether you feel like putting in the work, do it regardless.” (46:02 | Sarah)   Links Flux Footwear https://snwbl.io/flux-footwear/andrewfix 10% off   Xero Shoes: 10% off https://xeroshoes.com/go/drandrewfix   drinklmnt.com/physioroom - free variety pack with purchase.   RAD Roller - $5 off http://radroller.refr.cc/drandrewfix   Revogreen https://revogreen.co/drandrewfix   Connect with Sarah Martin: Instagram |  https://www.instagram.com/sarahtmwellness/ Online coaching application | https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd_2pdFduHSUvTGAHS9rMTUHOPmsbLwS5G-ketnCrlABpSrRA/viewform Connect with Physio Room:  Website | ​​https://physioroomco.com/  Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/physioroomco/ Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/physioroomco Andrew's Personal Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/drandrewfix/ Andrew's Personal Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/andrew.fix.9/   Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Sarah…You're a Triathlete!After 10 years of waiting to complete a triathlon, Sarah not just finished one but two!  What she discovered wasn't just the physical ability to complete it but how the triathlon community embraced her as well. To make it better, she also discovered how thrilling it was for her friends and family to watch her accomplish her goals as well.  Thinking about entering a triathlon?  Sarah shares her experience on how to ensure you get started on the right foot.On the Web:www.athletesinmotionpodcast.comOn YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@AthletesinMotionPodcastEpisodes Sponsored by:TriTomR Endurance LLC www.tritomrendurance.com

Welcome to Life in the Leadership Lane where I am talking to leaders making a difference in the workplace and in our communities. How did they get to where they are and what are they doing to stay there! Buckle up and get ready to accelerate in the Leadership Lane! This week, I am talking with Sarah Glaser, Principal and Head of Employment Practice at Lloyd Gosselink Rochelle and Townsend Attorneys at Law, and Director Texas SHRM and Austin SHRM Legal and Legislative How did Sarah get started in her career? What led her to the world employment law and leadership? When did Sarah “find her lane” in her career? What does Sarah share about her mentors? What does Sarah share about leadership? What does Sarah share about compliance challenges in the workplace? What tips does Sarah share about building your network? What does Sarah share about your personal and employment brand? What does Sarah share about the SHRM Advocacy Team (A-Team)? What advice does Sarah share to help us in our every day? ...and more as we spend “Time to Accelerate” with a few more questions.  Interview resources: Favorite quote(s) from Sarah: “You can't change the facts, but what you can change is how you handle things moving forward.” “To be able to give your knowledge, and your gifts to others is the best feeling. It's energizing” Connect with Sarah on LinkedIn Visit Sarah's firm Lloyd Gosselink Attorneys at Law Visit Texas SHRM Visit Austin SHRM Learn more about SHRM Advocacy Team Check out Bruce's books Life in the Leadership Lane; Moving Leaders to Inspire and Change the Workplace Find Your Lane; Change your GPS, Change your Career (“Book Authority” Best Books) Milemarkers; A 5 Year Journey …helping you record daily highlights to keep you on track. Subscribe to Bruce's Blog “Move to Inspire” Connect with Bruce on LinkedIn Connect with Bruce on Twitter Connect with Bruce on Instagram Connect with Bruce on Facebook Get relocation support for your next household goods or commercial office move across the US by reaching out to Bruce at mailto:bwaller@goarmstrong.com or visit The Armstrong Company

This week on the show Will, Ian & Jenny welcome Sarah Oliver on to talk dinosaurs, Br-acting and- Jenny Gives a bad score! A BAD SCORE! Won't say what exactly, but she does!! It's what we've all been waiting for! Jenny-5-Alive does NOT show up! It's wild! Give a listen, here it for yourself! Jenny did NOT like the movie! Because the movie was- 65 Directed by: Scott Beck & Bryan Woods. Starring: Adam Driver, Arianna Greenblatt, Chloe Coleman, Nika King, Brian Dare and.... and that's it, that's the cast. 00:00:25- Welcome Sarah Oliver (who is also on the podcast Mythunderstood) 00:02:50- First Thoughts 00:07:15- GUESTIONS 00:12:50- How Ya Been? 00:18:00- Whatcha Been Watchin'? (Ian- Furry Vengence, Chris Rock: Selective Outrage. Will- Poker Face. Jenny- RuPaul's Drag Race, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (show), Last of Us. Sarah- You, The Ricky Gervais Show) 00:23:00- Oscar Thoughts 00:27:00- 65 01:11:45- Ray Review 01:14:00- Thank You Sarah! and Bye How Low of a Score does Jenny Give!?!?!?! Only one way to find out! Instagram: @TheLastActionCritics @thesaraholiver @_mythunderstood Twitter:     @THE_Lastcritics email:   Thelastactioncritics@ gmail.com Next Week: Shazam: Fury of the Gods

This episode is most definitely less of an interview and more of a transmission as I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Sarah Jane Perman. ‌ She is a mother, a facilitator of the embodied feminine. She holds powerful soul journeys on sacred lands and curates online programs for women and mothers from The Alchemical Womb to Mother work, mentorships, doula support to rewilding the mother and much more. In this episode, I asked Sarah to share her story, and what unfolded was a beautiful transmission of truth telling and deep reflection. A circling inward as Sarah navigates life, motherhood, womanhood and the season she is in. Sarah Shares her story - a life well travelled full of adventure and deep work. We also dive into where Sarah's heart lives right now and that is with mother's and resourcing them properly. We look at motherhood, the mother current and the transmission of The Mother Priestess Sarah shares more on The Alchemical Womb and Rewilding the mother - two of her many offerings and programs. Allow yourself to drink from this wisdom stream and soak in the magic and medicine underneath Sarah's words. You can feel her essence and her depth - it was such an honour to receive them and share them with you all. ‌ Show notes: Upcoming events - ‌ The Awakened Womb in Gold Coast - March 19th and Central Coast - April 1st Connect with Sarah: You can connect with Sarah here: https://www.sarahjaneperman.com and via instagram @sarahjaneperman

“You have to find out who you are to show up as your authentic self. And then once you find out who you are, stop letting everyone else around you tell you what to do,” shares Sarah Chickee, hardworking mompreneur and owner of Le Club Mom Boss. Her goal is to help mom and non-binary parent-owned businesses flourish while not having to choose between their business and their kids.  Many women and assigned-women at birth non-binary parents are still having to choose between a thriving career and being with their kids. It's even more difficult for solopreneurs who are having to balance running a business with still maintaining the home and having time for their families. However, no one even blinks an eye at men who own businesses and have kids. Mompreneurs can benefit from community with other mompreneurs, because they connect on a deeper level and can understand each other's struggles.  No one should be having to choose between a career they are passionate about and their children, especially not nowadays. Unfortunately it is still a big issue, particularly for mothers and many non-binary parents.  Tune into today's episode of Humanitarian Entrepreneur Podcast for a talk with special guest Sarah Chickee to learn more about the work she is doing to highlight these mom-owned businesses, create visibility, and help fuel economic growth.  Quotes “Nobody should have to choose between their passionate career and their kids.” (7:19-7:23 | Sarah) “The amount of people that don't listen with their heart is astronomical, which is I want to say it's more like 90% of people don't listen with their heart, they listen to their brain. But when you talk to people and you connect, with even just one qualifier, one thing that connects you with someone else, you kind of feel seen. And then the more connections you find like a spider web everywhere, the more you really feel valued in what you do. Even if you're not a business owner, mom's connect with other moms whether they're a business owner. Business owners connect with other business owners, whether they're a mom or not, the struggles are similar. There's always something you can connect with someone.” (13:01-13:40 | Sarah)  “You have to find out who you are to show up as your authentic self. And then once you find out who you are, stop letting everyone else around you tell you what to do.” (20:48-20:58 | Sarah) “If you're fake, you're not going to get the customers that you need.” (21:50-21:53 | Sarah)   Connect with Sarah Chicken: Instagram: instagram.com/LeClubMomBoss Instagram: instagram.com/Leschocolatsdechickee Facebook: facebook.com/leclubmomboss LinkedIn: linkedin.com/sarahchickee Website: www.leclubmomboss.ca   To connect with Tiffany to solve problems or affect the kind of change you want: https://calendly.com/humanitarianentrepreneur/discovery-call Website:  https://humanitarian-entrepreneur.com    Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Writer, comedian Kristen Smith, joins the pod this week and brings great levity to an incredibly hard topic… the big C. Kristen shares what got her through the double whammy of becoming a mom after receiving a Follicular Lymphoma diagnosis. Spoilers Kristen's years of saying yes (improv style), You Are a Badass by Jen Sincero, Ayahuasca, the Care Bear stare, and her unwavering sense of humor and ability to find the good all have something to do with it.80s cartoon / childhood references abound in this episode. If nostalgia is your thing, this episode's for you.You can find Kristen @spacegirlk on IG and TikTok (or on the lesbian compound her fam shares with Sarah)You can find us @fuckyeahpod on IG and TikTok or at fyeahpod@gmail.com

We are honored to have Dr. Hazel Keedle join us today all the way from Australia! Hazel is the author of Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth. She has more than 25 years of experience as a clinician both in nursing and midwifery, an educator, and a published researcher. Her work remains rooted in her desire to strengthen and empower women.Hazel tells us how her own VBAC birth journey lit a fire that led to the completion of her doctorate degree and her book. Everything in her book is ESSENTIAL for VBAC-hopeful mamas and is all backed with evidence-based research.We know you will LOVE listening to Hazel. She is so gracious and such an invaluable asset to the birth world. This episode is a must-listen and her book is most definitely a must-read for all!Additional linksBirth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle, PhDHazel's Instagram: @hazelkeedleHazel's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/VBACmattersSarah's Instagram: @sarah_marie_bilger or @entering_motherhoodHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: You guys are listening to The VBAC Link and I'm so excited for today's episode. We have Hazel Keedle today. She's in Australia and it's 1:00 a.m. She stayed up all night just to be with us today on this podcast. So grateful for her. We're going to be time sensitive so we can make sure to get her tucked into bed at a somewhat reasonable hour, but guess what? Today, we have a co-host. A co-host! I'm so excited to start bringing on some co-hosts here and there. Today, we have Sarah and she is one of our VBAC doulas. I'm so excited to have her with us today. Review of the WeekMeagan: Sarah is going to actually do the honors of reading you a review. So go ahead, Sarah. Sarah: Hi, yeah. I'm glad to be here. We have a review from Katelyn Bayless. This one is from google and it says, “I honestly can't recommend The VBAC Link enough. I had my son via C-section in 2021 and even though I'm not pregnant with number two yet, I feel so ready and even excited for when that time comes because of all of the stories and education from The VBAC Link. I have been binging the podcast for the past couple of weeks and I have a note on my phone that is specifically for VBAC resources and education that has been mentioned on this podcast. “I am looking into providers and planning on starting interviewing some soon. I can't tell y'all enough. Thank you for all that you do and I hope one day I can share my VBAC story.”Meagan: Oh, I love that. I love that. Well, today's episode is going to have some more resources for you for sure. Hazel Keedle, PhDMeagan: We are coming to you from The VBAC Link. We have a guest from Australia. We're so excited to have her. We're so, so excited. We actually just connected here. We are connecting for the first time, I should say today, but Hazel, our guest today, just connected with us about a week or two ago. You guys, she is so amazing. It's 1:00 a.m. and she is in Australia recording right now, so I just want to give her a huge shoutout and thank you for being with us at 1:00 a.m. Oh my goodness. I told her I probably would have been, “Nope. Let's find another time,” but here she is. She is so dedicated at 1:00 a.m. recording with us and I cannot wait to share with you this wonderful, wonderful human being. We are going to jump right into it because again, it's 1:00 a.m. I don't want to take too much time but I wanted to introduce her quickly. This is Hazel Keedle. She is a lecturer of midwifery and completed her PhD in 2021 at Western Sydney University in Australia. Hazel has more than 25 years of experience as a clinician in nursing and midwifery, educator, and researcher. Her research is – it might as well be 1:00 here Hazel. Hazel: You're doing great.Meagan: Her research is recognized internationally and focuses on midwifery practice, education, and women's experience in maternity care. Hazel is passionate about improving support for women during pregnancy, birth, and early transition to mothering. She is amazing. Right here in my very hands, I am holding a book that she wrote. It's called Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle. I definitely am going to suggest this and we are going to talk more about her book here in just a minute, but again, I don't want to take too much of her time so we are going to jump right into it and turn the time over to you to share all of your wonderful knowledge and of course, your story. Hazel: Sure, okay. Well, thank you for having me here. I really don't mind waiting up for you. Okay, so yeah. My name is Hazel Keedle and I'm originally from the U.K., but I moved to Australia 20 years ago now with a backpack and I never left. I came over here as a nurse and then I trained to be a midwife while I was here. I was kind of destined. My granny was a midwife in England and she told me that I would be one, so I followed what she said and I became a midwife here. And then, I wasn't particularly interested in vaginal birth after Cesarean at that point. I was just trying to get my head around what being a midwife was and what it meant. I quickly met my husband during my UgradG* as a midwife. We quite quickly got together and had a baby which was a planned home birth but ended up that he was being breech and I ended up having an emergency Cesarean because in my area at the time– this was 15 years ago– there wasn't anyone who supported breech vaginal birth. I knew that I would have to have a Cesarean. I didn't have a great experience and I didn't do too well with my health afterward. But then, which was not planned at all, I got pregnant again very quickly. There were only 4 months between my Cesarean and getting pregnant. When I did find out, which was a few months after that, so I was breastfeeding, I had to think about what I was going to do and I really didn't want to have a Cesarean. My whole first experience was the most hospitalized home birth you can have. I had pneumonia at 34 weeks with my first and then I had a Cesarean and I had mastitis and a childhood fever, so I was in the hospital three times. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Hazel: I was really sick and I really did not want to go through that again, but I also wasn't sure if I would get support to have a VBAC because there would be 13 months between them or 14 months, I thought, at that point. I did lots of reading. I was a midwife by this point and I dug my head into the numbers. I read the only book that was out there which was The Silent Knife which as you know, is very old and it was very old then, but it was really good at getting me the statistics. I then dated my reading. For a whole weekend, I shut myself in a room and just read and read and read and read. I came out of it freaked out because a paper had come out that year that said if it was less than 6 months between a Cesarean and conception, then you had a 2.7% chance of uterine rupture compared to less than 1%. I got a bit freaked out by those numbers. I came up to my hubby who is a very rational numbers man and I said, “I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't have a VBAC.” I told him the numbers and he said, “You've got over a 97% chance of everything being fine.” I was like, “Well, yeah.” It was more dangerous and get in a car and drive to the hospital. Why don't you just go for a VBAC?I adopted his idea and I thought that it was a great idea. I became dedicated to having a VBAC at that point. I didn't realize at the time it would shape my future career and life goals, but I stuck my head in the sand. I avoided antenatal care to be honest because I didn't want to hear the negativity but I was a midwife, so I was able to get someone to listen to my baby and did my blood pressure every time I went to work. I did plan a home birth for my VBAC, but all of my team couldn't be there at the time, so I transferred in. I had to fight during my labor. There was just lots of coercion, lots of “you must have your baby by 4:00 or you're going into a Cesarean”, and I had to just keep fighting. It was so hard to keep fighting when you are in labor. They also knew I was a midwife. I trained there, so I couldn't understand why I had to fight so hard. And then I actually pushed her out of my vagina at 4:00 on the dot. Meagan: Oh my gosh, no way. Hazel: Yeah. The time they were going to take me into theater was her birth time. It was amazing. I didn't know I could feel that high after doing something that was so hard, but I did and it left me with a couple of questions when I looked back and reflected on how I felt. First of all, I wondered if there were any other women who felt as amazing as I did. I really was on cloud nine. I felt like I was healed and that all of the medical stuff I had after my first was gone. But with that came a question of how does any other woman in Australia manage to have a VBAC with that much drama and with that much negativity during labor?Meagan: Yeah and pressure. Hazel: Yeah and I was a midwife. I could see through it, but how did other women who didn't have that knowledge? So I was left with those questions. I was at a community forum. We had a lot of access issues up here to our local maternity and there were lots of petitions and community action. I went over to one of the forums. I shared my VBAC story in that forum and there was a professor of midwifery there who said, who I'd never met before, “You know, you're a midwife. I think you should research this.” I stayed in contact and then about a year later, I started doing research with her. She was my supervisor for both my Master's Honors and then my PhD. Now, we work together on a lot of projects. So yeah. It was sharing my story in that location that started my research career. Well, I think having a VBAC started my research career but that started my formal research career. Now I'm here. She's about to turn 14 and I have done a Master's, a PhD, five or so papers on VBAC, maybe more, and written a book. So that's my story in a nutshell. Meagan: Those are amazing things. And written a book. It's so funny because you were like, “Yeah, it started,” but I think it had been with you for a while and then that inspired you and gave you the extra oomph. It was like, “Now I've gone through this and experienced this. How can I change this? How can I change this for everyone else?” I always had this desire for birth and a passion for babies. I would have wanted to be a labor and delivery nurse, and then I had my first C-section and was like, “Oh. That wasn't really what I wanted or what I envisioned.” Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: And then after my second, learning more about doulas and birth, and really the options, then also going through that second Cesarean, although it was healing and everything, just having a different experience, I was like, “Yeah. This is what I'm doing. This is what I want to do.” It's like it was always in you and it was always in me, but these experiences that we've had have lit the first. Hazel: Yeah, it became the drive. I've always been interested in research. I got an Honors degree when I was a nurse back in London, and so I had a bit of a passion for research and for reading research, but I think you have to have that real drive and reason for going on such a big path. And yeah, definitely. For me, it was not even how amazing I felt. It was just that question of, did other women feel that? Is it hard for everyone?There was one point when I had stayed overnight. I wish I hadn't. I wish I had gone straight home, but I had been coerced to stay overnight in the hospital. Midwives would be coming in and saying, “Are you the VBAC woman?” I thought, “What is this? Is this a zoo and I'm a prized animal that they are coming in to stare at?” It made me think that it actually was quite rare then to have a VBAC here. It was really so rare that they had to come in and go, “Are you the VBAC woman?”Meagan: “Are you the VBAC woman?” Yes. Hazel: Yeah. But I hadn't learned much about it in my training. I was working in the low-risk units, so we didn't offer VBAC in the hospital I was working in, so it was quite a rarity for me as well. Meagan: Yes. So tell me more about VBAC in Australia. Tell me more about what it's looking like, what it's seeming like, and what you've learned through all of your education. I would love to know. We talked about this in the beginning. I'm just here in Utah. We are actually very fortunate. We have a high VBAC rate here. I mean, Cesarean rates are still through the roof in general in my own opinion, but we still have a higher VBAC rate and we still have to fight for it. It isn't as uncommon, but I'd love to know more about your research and what you're seeing there in Australia. Hazel: Yeah. So what is your VBAC rate, out of interest, in Utah?Meagan: I'm trying to remember the exact. I will look it up. Hazel: I'm trying to think that the US in general is about 12% isn't it the last time I checked the numbers?Meagan: Yeah, that does sound right. Hazel: Interestingly, I do a lot of presentations on VBAC. When you look across the world, they really do vary from Finland with, I have a 50%, down to across to you guys at 12%. We match you. We actually don't have the high European numbers. We have 12% as well. Meagan: It says 23.9%. Hazel: Okay, so that's pretty good. I wish we had that. Meagan: Yeah, so it says in 2020, well, oh my gosh. 21.3% were Cesarean, but vaginal birth after Cesarean from 2017-2020 in Utah averages 23.9% overall. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: And then it breaks it down within the cities here. Hazel: Which is pretty good. I mean, I know that's not consistent across the U.S. because the national number comes right down. We do have varieties over here and those varieties are down to the model of care and access. So here in Australia, we have a public maternity system or a public hospital system that is paid through the taxpayer. In that system, where everyone gets free health care, they will be able to access a few different models depending on what's available in their area. They might have a midwifery group practice where they could see the same midwife throughout and there would be a few of them that were on call for free. It's part of the hospital service, but that is relatively new. That has really been rising in the last few years as the health services are increasing those models. We have the standard antenatal care which is where women see whichever midwife is on duty or whichever doctor is on duty and whoever is in the labor ward will look after them during labor and whoever is on the ward would look after them postnatally. We call it “standard care” but we also call it “fragmented care” because you see somebody different all of the time. Then we have– so outside of the hospital system, we have some smaller ones for first nations women, and for migrant women, there are some specific models as well. But then outside of the hospital system, we do have privately practicing midwives who are able to prescribe medications, get some money back from Medicare, and offer home birth services. Some of them also have visiting rights in hospitals. That is more state specific. We have more ** there than in any other state here in Australia for the visiting rights. Meagan: So then are you able to come over if a transfer were needed to happen and things like that, they could come over and perform their care? Hazel: Yeah, they could have an agreement with the local hospital, but that's a growing thing and it's more popular in some states than in others. Where I am, which is New South Wales, which is where Sydney is, there's only really one hospital that offers that in such a very big state. Meagan: Yeah. Hazel: And then we also have the private hospital as well where you would be through a private obstetrician. You would get that continuity, but it's obstetric care, not midwifery care. You may or may not see a midwife during your antenatal period and then you will have midwives along in the labor ward or in the private hospital, but with the private obstetrician you signed up for. So we've got a few different models of care and what we do know from the studies that have been done, the VBAC rates do vary across those models of care. They are higher with privately practicing midwives, so a lot of women who choose home birth are choosing it after a Cesarean and that's what I did my first study on which was their experiences. Then we have good rates in midwifery models of care such as the midwifery group practices and then we have low rates in private hospitals. They have higher repeat Cesarean rates and a lower VBAC rate in private hospitals with continuity of obstetric care. That's really how it looks. But obviously, we are a very big country with a lot of areas in between, so we will have hospitals that maybe don't offer birthing services, but a lot of our remote communities are a bit like Canada where all of them, I say in areas of Canada, they have some birthing in-country services. We are still a bit behind on that, so it really is a variety of services, but in most metropolitan hospitals, you'd get a private model, a public model, and midwifery models within that. Meagan: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love it. I wish so badly that I had the capabilities or I guess I was in a time in my life where I didn't have little, like little kids, where I could bounce around to not only different states but different countries and somehow observe birth and learn birth around the world. That is this dream of mine that I could understand birth from all areas other than just little Utah here. I have a doula partner who just came from Texas and birth is so different here in Utah than it is in Texas. What you're describing is so different. Obviously, there are similarities all around. We hear all of these stories and there are definite similarities. It's birth, but the way care is and everything, so yeah. One day. One day maybe I'll be able to bounce around in life, but I love hearing that. Hazel: That's right because only then you're limited then to really what is published and so some other countries that have higher VBAC rates– just across from us is New Zealand where they have a midwifery model of care and the numbers we can get from them, they don't have national data on this, they seem to have much higher VBAC rates to us, but then they aren't published very much on it, so it's really hard to know. Unless you're there, it's hard to get a sense of what's going on. Meagan: What's really going on, what they're doing, and why do they have such a high rate? Hazel: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: Other than maybe midwifery care. Hazel: There are some studies out there, especially in Europe, there are some studies that looked into the culture and how different that is, but not enough. Not enough to really give us an idea. Meagan: Absolutely. So, Ms. Hazel, I would love for you to share more about your book too. You have so many amazing things in this book. I'm going to hurry and just flip over to the table of contents, but it reminds me a lot about our VBAC course. It covers so many incredible things, these topics. Obviously, your VBAC journey is in there, your research journey which I think is amazing, your PhD journey, birth trauma, and experiences and symptoms of birth trauma which are so important. We don't talk about that enough. Seeking help and debriefing– again, something we don't talk about enough. How to access debriefing. I don't know if you want to cover any of that, but that's so important right there. You have so many things in this book. Do you want to cover some of your highlights? Sarah and I are both here in the states, but we would love to know more about this amazing book. By the way, listeners, we're going to have a link for this book if you want to purchase it and give it a read because it's going to be amazing for you. I promise you. Hazel: Oh thank you. Well, my publishers are in the U.S., so when I was writing it I very much had the U.S. in mind, Australia, and the U.K., so even when I looked at any resources in the book, I tried to find U.S. ones as well. Meagan: Yeah, I noticed. YOu have some Lamaze and everything in here. You have tables of words broken down and it does have U.S. things. That is something, I think, that is so amazing because a lot of our listeners are in the U.S. so it's super nice to be able to read something and have some resources for here where they are. Hazel: Yeah. The idea behind the book was I was towards the end of my Ph.D. journey and I used a methodology called feminist critical theory. Part of that is that you give back your research. You get your research. You get your data from women in the community, but you want to give back to transform that culture for the better. When I was really evaluating, “Well, how do I do that?” When I was writing my thesis, I was like, “Well, how am I giving back to my community?” I had research papers and I know people read research papers. You guys do and then you translate that evidence into your doula course. A lot of people do that. But I thought, “Maybe that's not everyone.” When I did my Australian VBAC survey, I asked what kind of resources people used, and there was a real want to have more books out there. I wondered if I could have this crazy pipe dream of writing a book and then I had the opportunity to do that, so I submitted my thesis in the October and by the December, I had signed a book contract. I was really keen while it was all fresh in my head to get it all out and down on paper.I think lockdowns were in my favor because I had to take leave because it was building up. I couldn't go anywhere so it was like, “Well, I will just sit and write this book then.” That's really how I used my time to do it. I put it together as my findings of my PhD. One of the first papers I wrote on my PhD journey was looking at all of the evidence that was out there. The title of the paper was, “The journey from pain to power.”That was a thread that went through all of my PhD journey. When I was then looking at, “Well, how do I write this book?” The term “journey” was very high up there. I thought, “Well, I go on that journey from pain to power.” That first thing is that pain and that is that previous Cesarean. One of the things I found out from my studies was that usually in the community, we have about a third of women say “yes” to experiencing birth trauma. That's the full state of birth trauma which includes psychological birth trauma. When I asked that question in my VBAC surveys– so all of these women have had at least one previous Cesarean– that was ⅔ of women that suggested birth trauma. We already know we have a highly traumatized group of women who have had a previous Cesarean, so that's why I started with that. I think it's really important. It certainly is. I was a home birth midwife for many years. I know you need to work that out and talk about it, and debrief about it before. You've got to work at that past to be able to look forward to the future. Meagan: Yeah. Well, and even recognizing it. Hazel: Yeah, that's a great one. Meagan: Sometimes, it's hard to recognize that you look at your experience as traumatic because I feel like so many times, we are mentally trained to tell ourselves, “Oh, we had a safe and healthy baby, so no. It's fine.” They suppress their trauma down. They're like, “No, I was fine. It's fine.”Sarah: We're led to believe that as well. Hazel: Yeah, absolutely. That's why I really brought in quotes and what it can look like for women and quotes from the stories that had been shared with me for people to go, “Maybe that is what I experienced. Maybe those symptoms are what I am experiencing.” I start that chapter off with, “Go grab yourself, in pure English style, go grab yourself a cup of tea and a chocolate bar because this chapter will be tough,” just to recognize that this might not be the easiest one. It might not be where people want to start off with. They might go back to that. But yes. I started off with that pain and then I used what I found through my PhD and what I did in my qualitative. So in my PhD, I had qualitative and that moved into quantitative. So the qualitative is all of the feelings, experiences, and exploration, and then the quantitative is all of the stats and the numbers. When I did the qualitative, what I did was I had this crazy idea of designing an app. Women, after their appointments with their healthcare provider, would come home and record their experiences on the app. They would do that after every appointment and then I interviewed them afterward as well. I had some really rich data. I had 52 recordings. I'm so grateful to those women. I'll be forever indebted to those women. Then I had all of these interviews as well, so I had these really rich stories. We use that term in qualitative is rich data. Sarah: These were appointments leading up to their birth or after in the postpartum period after their Cesarean? Hazel: Right, this is during their pregnancy. Sarah: Okay.Hazel: So they were planning to have a VBAC. That's what their plan was and then they would go and see their healthcare providers and then they would do recordings for me. They were given some prompts and questions, but it became very organic like it was more like a journal. They would start going, “Hi, Hazel. I'm so many weeks now and this is what just happened.” It was a really novel way. The research hadn't been done like that before, so it was really interesting. What I was able to do was a narrative analysis which was comparing all of their stories against each other to look for commonalities and differences. What I found is that there were these four factors that impacted how they felt after the birth because I interviewed them all after the birth as well. Those four factors, if they were really positive on those four factors across them and they had a cumulative effect. One had an impact on the other. They felt better about their birth experience regardless of the birth experience. If they felt lower on those four factors, they were more devastated after their birth experience.It didn't mean that those who had a vaginal birth didn't feel more positive than those that had a repeat Cesarean because it kind of was that as well, but there was a lot of resolution that could come when you had a repeat Cesarean, and felt higher in those factors. Those factors are then what I go into in the book. There's a chapter dedicated to each one of those factors. They are having control, so having control over your choices, your wishes, and your birth outcomes. Then there's having confidence, so having confidence in your ability to have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, but also, having confidence in your healthcare providers' belief in you. That was quite surprising for me how pertinent that was. Women really wanted that. It makes sense, doesn't it? You really want that person to believe in you and believe that you can do what it is that you want to do. And then there's having a relationship, so that was the relationship that you have with your healthcare provider whether that's one that is developed such as continuity of care or whether it's with a different person each time, and even then, not all continuity is the same and that really came out in the study. And then the last one is being active in labor. That seemed a bit of a strange one to add on, but women who felt they were really able to do everything that they wanted to do during labor and birth, being as active as they could, as upright as they could, felt better after their birth experience. If they then ended up with a repeat Cesarean, then they still felt very positive because they had done everything that they could compared to not having the opportunity to be upright and vocalizing that. Meagan: Yes, yes. We have found that. I have found that personally in my group of doulas. We have found that even if it doesn't end the way they want, there are bumps and curves. It's labor and birth, but along the way, if they felt like they were in charge and were able to be in the positions they wanted and call the shots a little bit more, overall after, they felt immensely more positive and happy about their experience. Hazel: Yeah, absolutely. That's it. In the book then, I really go into what they all mean. The control chapter might take some people by surprise because I actually know a lot of women, especially when they are reflecting on their previous Cesarean which may have been, let's just take probably the most common example these days. Induction, they're having their first baby, they get close to the date, post dates, they get encouraged to have an induction. The induction doesn't quite go to plan. They have a cascade of interventions and have a Cesarean. When they are then planning for the next birth before or during the pregnancy, one of the common themes is getting armed with knowledge. It's like, “Okay. Now I need to know everything about labor, birth, and pregnancy. I really want to be able to call the shots.” There's a bit of grieving in that time of, “Why did I say yes? Why didn't I say no?” A bit of self-blame. I think as women, we are kind of hardwired to blame ourselves for everything, especially blaming our bodies because we are never quite right. The media never lets us think we are right because we are either too big or too small or our boobs are not quite right or whatever. Meagan: Right.Hazel: There's nothing to make us feel better and then we blame ourselves for not being able to stand up against the patriarchal medical system. I actually start the control chapter looking at the impact of the patriarchy in medicine and especially in obstetrics and how the different waves of feminism have impacted that and also the impact of reproductive justice which is something that is obviously very important in the U.S., but also over here with our host nations' women and migrant communities that have come to Australia. I look at all of that and really frame it to go, “You know, it's actually not your fault. It's actually really hard to stand up for yourself and say no when you are at the bottom of a really oppressive ladder.” Not to come and say, “Well, you can't do anything,” because then I explore all of the ways of what you can do to help that and actually how you need all of those factors together to really build your position. But almost to take that guilt off and also understand where we've got to today with a hospital-based maternity system, why it is like it is, and the impact of all of those different changes in society that have got to where we are today. So yeah. Those are the different chapters. Some of them have activities that you can do. There are a few guess righters in there. And then one of my favorite parts, probably because I didn't have to write it, but I put a Facebook post out and asked for women who had any VBAC stories that they wanted to print in the book. I wanted a VBAC with just something a little bit different or complicated risk or whatever. I have got 12 stories of women from around the world including the U.S. who've had VBAC with something a little bit different there. It might be after multiple Cesareans like your story or it might be at home or it might be with a larger body which, as we know, gets a lot of stigma in maternity care. There's one that is a VBAC after a uterine rupture. There's one after a classical scar. There are all of these different stories at the back of the book in full with pictures, but I also weaved them into some of the chapters earlier as well. I love those stories. Some are short. Some are in poem form and some are really long. I just kept them as they were and put them in the book. Just really so women can identify and go, “Maybe I'm not quite sure what Hazel is saying,” and then they get to that story and they are like, “Oh, actually I really relate to that person.”Meagan: Yeah. That's one of the reasons why we're here on The VBAC Link podcast, right? All of these stories, some of them you might not connect to as deeply, and then some you're like, “Oh my gosh. That's me. I felt that. I had that. That's my story. It's like they're taking it out of my own mouth.”Hazel: Absolutely. It is so important. Meagan: We've had that many times where it's like, “Whoa. That was almost creepy how similar those births were,” and then to be able to connect and be like, “But look. They went on and they did it. This is what they did.” It's so empowering. Just flipping through these beautiful pictures is absolutely stunning. Absolutely stunning pictures. I'm sure these stories are going to, again, relate to so many people out there that may not even know that they're going to relate to them until they read them. Hazel: Yeah. I do mention in the– oh my gosh. I'm testing myself on which chapter that one's in now. I think it might be Confidence about really relating to stories and listening to podcasts. I mention that you really need to tap into your peers because we have very large social media groups now and pages to follow full of positive VBAC stories. That's important in there. I do also add there, it does say that the title is Birth After Cesarean. I do throughout the book look at, you are choosing the best birth for you. You need to prepare for both, but you may either have or choose a gentle Cesarean. There is a chapter in there as well about what a gentle Cesarean is, what evidence says, and maybe some of the things you might think of if you have a repeat Cesarean. There is that part of it as well because I explore how important it is to really if you're going to be in control of everything or have more control, then you have to be aware of all options that might happen and be able to still have the best birth for you regardless of that outcome. Meagan: Yeah. We just posted– we reposted I should say– from Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. I think that is how you say it. Hopefully, I'm not butchering her last name. She's from Australia actually. She's an OB and she posted this video of a gentle Cesarean where the mom was actively involved in giving birth to her baby with her own hands. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: For me in my Cesareans, both of them, my arms were strapped down in a T and after my second daughter was born, they undid the one arm and I did have skin-to-skin. I was able to hold her with that one arm, but watching this video was captivating. It's a 30-second thing, but I watched it probably 40 times because I'm like, “Oh my gosh.” I looked at the mom. I looked at the baby. I looked at everyone around her. There was no curtain. She was able to be totally a part of her birth. I'm like, “Yes. This is what we need.” I literally texted a midwife here in Utah. I'm like “I know I'm a really small fish in a big ocean, but let me know if there's anything I can do from my end to start bringing this option to people.” We got so many messages after like, “Whoa. How can I get that? What do I need to do?” It looks like in Australia, there are multiple videos of this happening. Hazel: I will add that it's not common and it really does depend on who your OB is. Meagan: Exactly. Hazel: But a few years ago, one of my dear friends did her PhD as a video ethnography of skin-to-skin in theater. She was videoing Cesareans and seeing really what happens to what enables skin-to-skin in theater and what doesn't. It was really fascinating. She was one of my PhD buddies. One of the Cesareans she saw was a gentle Cesarean with the woman reaching down to grab her baby. She wrote this beautiful article, but it was actually in a midwifery college magazine that doesn't exist anymore. I could say that she had written it, but I couldn't find my copy of it. I emailed because we are friends. I emailed her and I said, “Look. Do you have a PDF copy because I really want to read it?”She sent it to me. I read it. I wrote about it in that chapter and then I sent the chapter to her. I said, “Could you just read it to make sure that I've said all the right things?” because that's her expert area. She was happy with what I had written, so that was good. Yeah. It really is down to providers. But really, the more women that ask for it, the more pressure there will be to explore it. There are a lot of resources and videos out there now that can show people how to do it. Meagan: And how to do it and that it is possible. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: I think sometimes it's like, “No. That's impossible. It's a sterile environment. We can't have extra bodies in the operating room.” But look. Hazel: The woman's already there. There's not going to be an extra body. Meagan: Right. Hazel: And really, the ones that I've seen really, they will do the surgical scope with their hands. They will have double gloves on so when they get to the point of needing to reach down, they can take that first pair of gloves off, and then you've got the sterile ones on underneath. There are lots that can be done. Even just lowering the screen. There's often still a screen there, but it's lowered so they can reach down and then take the baby, and then it can go back up while they do the suturing. Meagan: Absolutely, yeah. Hazel: There are ways it can be done, but it's just having people understand why. I remember being in an OB's office with a client, a woman I was caring for. She was exploring her options after having a Cesarean. She mentioned having a gentle Cesarean. His attitude was, “Well, if I offer that, then nobody will want to plan a VBAC.” I was like, “That's actually not going to happen. Don't worry. It's just giving an option to women. Women still really want to have a vaginal birth after Cesarean. That's not going to go down. Your rates are not even that high anyways so don't stress. This is what you can do to support them.” But yeah. That was an excuse for not wanting to go there because it sounds a little bit too hard. Meagan: Mhmm. Sarah: Yeah. That just goes back to sharing our stories too because I feel like without sharing those experiences like we were saying, you're not going to know what your options are if you're not being informed about them. If others are doing this and more people are asking for it, then it's going to open that door and allow other people to be in control of what they want for their birth. Meagan: Exactly. Hazel: And throughout the book, it really is based on evidence. I am a researcher with a very large library of articles and I did dive into them. Straight after the trauma chapter, I go into what the evidence is for the different choices. I have a really deep dive into uterine rupture and then what was meant to be part of a chapter actually ended up on its own which was Can I Have a VBAC If…? and then I look into different scenarios or issues that potentially people will say, “Can I have a VBAC if I've got this?”So that is all evidence-based with numbers and going through what current data is out there. Meagan: Right. There are a lot of percentages in your book. I love it. There are graphs. You may not think that this may impact care, but she has this, it's Figure 2 in the book. It's talking about the length of time for pregnancy appointments under different models of care. You may not right now think the length of an appointment matters, but I can tell you right now firsthand from experience that when I had with my VBAC kiddo, I switched care at 24 weeks. I had an OB and he was great. I seriously loved the guy. He's wonderful and I still think he's wonderful. But then I switched care to a midwifery model-based care. The difference between my visits and again, OBs will spend time, but for me, the difference between my visits was incredible. I actually looked forward, really looked forward to visits with my midwife. I was always greeted with a ginormous hug. She never walked in without giving me a big hug and saying, “How are you doing? Really, how are you?” and then would sit down. We would just have a discussion. She became my best friend. I could just open up to her. She spent quality time. For me, it really helped me as I was entering into this next stage of birth to feel confident in her. I was so comfortable because of all the time that she spent with me. Hazel: I love that. I do love that graph. That came out of my VBAC in Australia survey. We asked what model of care they had and then I asked, “What was the time spent at your appointments?” When we looked at the data, it was just so obvious that the shorter time frame, so maybe 5-15 minutes was certainly with obstetric-led care, and then the 20 minutes plus– certainly, with the privately practicing midwives it was more, and then an hour usually was with the midwifery models of care. That was important because relationships take time. In that relationship factor, you need to have someone by your side who understands your wishes and your trauma if you have some which, as I said, ⅔ of women did, and understands what you want, what you are planning for, and what you are hoping for. Just understanding you and how you tick. Certainly, in my years as a continuity of care midwife, in all models of care, you really, for me as a midwife, I really want to know the person that I'm caring for so that I can see those changes, those really subtle changes in behavior even during labor and also you can pick up when things really aren't quite right and that you might need an extra hug at that time or an extra kind word. Meagan: Yeah. Hazel: That takes a lot of trust. Relationships in healthcare, I believe, should be based on trust and equity. That takes time. The very simple graph, there's no way I could have done an appointment in ten minutes because I have to have a cup of tea at least. There's no way I could drink a cup of tea in just five or ten minutes. So sit down, have a cup of tea, and learn about what's going on.The physical part, feeling the baby, the blood pressure, that you do at some point, but that to me, finding out what's going on for the woman and how she's feeling and what's going on with the family, that is far more important. That takes time. When we saw that in the graph format, it was like, “Oh perfect. That exactly shows what we are saying.” A relationship takes time. Most of us don't usually marry someone that we haven't really or get into a relationship with someone that we haven't spent a fair bit of time with and figured out whether we like them or not. We understand that those relationships are important. I think that when you are only doing something a few times in your life, but you will remember it for the rest of your life, then you really want to choose the team and the support people there. That includes your healthcare provider who completely knows you and completely understands where you've come from and where you want to go.Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. I feel like I could talk to you until 4:00 a.m. in Australia. Hazel: I'm wide awake now. Meagan: My family and I are getting ready. We are going on a trip this weekend. Your book is going to be in my hand the entire airplane ride there and back because I just want to soak in every single word that you wrote in this book. I am so excited. I definitely encourage everyone. I haven't even read it yet, but I've skimmed it I should say. I started, but I haven't had time to just sit down and read. It's going to be amazing I can already tell just by browsing through this and listening to you.Oh my gosh. There is something that you say here. It's in the very beginning. This is where I have stopped reading, but it was something that impacts me personally because I feel emotional. It's kind of funny. I felt like this. I felt like a failure and I feel like there are so many times in life when we can– like you said, we beat ourselves up. If it's not about our body, it's about something else, but failure is a word that comes in. I actually have recently, today actually, it's going to be launching. I recently made a reel about failure and how there is no such thing as failure, but this is something if you don't mind, I'm going to quote you reading this book. It's page 10 everybody if you have the book. “In this book, I will talk about planning an elective Cesarean, planning a VBAC, having an elective Cesarean, having a VBAC, or having a repeat emergency Cesarean. There is no failure. You haven't failed if you choose one birth mode but have another. You are amazing and your choices are valid. Be true to you.” That, to me, is so powerful. “Be true to you.” And no, you did not fail no matter what birth mode you chose or what birth mode ended up happening, right? Don't you feel that, Sarah?Sarah: Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think it touches back into the trauma too that maybe you are not aware of that you've experienced and really fear-clearing and taking the time to process your previous birth knowing that whatever the outcome is for your next journey, you're not that failure. You're fine and perfect. You're enough. Hazel: Absolutely. Meagan: Mhmm. You are enough. Yes. Hazel: The research, when you read it, is really full of emotive damaging words when it comes to VBAC. Saying that women are a trial of scar or a trial of labor, we are not criminals for wanting to have a vaginal birth and when we use that language in research, then it means OBs and clinicians and nurses and midwives will use that language as well and tell you that you're on trial. What do you imagine when you think of that? You're not thinking about, “Is this uterine scar going to survive?” You get a feeling that you're a criminal and you're not just because you want to have a vaginal birth. I even challenge researchers. Take that language out. You don't need it. It's unnecessary. I've been writing a paper with some OBs over here recently and just saying, “I won't be on it if you use the term ‘trial.' I won't be on it if you use the term ‘failed' or ‘succeeded'. Just take the emotive words out and call it what it is.”We have to show by example as well and not have that language in the papers that are influencing policy, guidelines, and practitioners. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: There is such power in the language and the words that we use. Absolutely. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Well, Hazel. It has been such an honor to chat with you. Like I said, I feel like we could go on and on and on. Maybe we just need to have you back on. Maybe we need to do something even bigger and do a webinar with you because you have such a wealth of knowledge and we're so grateful for you. Like I said everybody, we will have the link for her book Birth After Cesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth in our show notes. So Hazel, before we go, do you want to share where everyone can find you? I'm going to be sharing you all over our social media as well. We're going to have everything in the show notes, but tell people where we can find you. Hazel: Yeah, sure. I'm on Instagram at @hazelkeedle. I'm on Facebook at VBAC Matters or Hazel Keedle, VBAC Researcher. That's where I share my book information but also future research that I'm doing as well. I'd love to come on and do a webinar with you and talk further about this anytime even at 2:00 in the morning. Meagan: Even at 2:00 in the morning! You are amazing. We are so grateful to you. Seriously, thank you so much, Hazel. Yeah. I can't wait to share this episode with the world. Hazel: Thank you for having me. Sarah: You know, a lot of what we talk about in the episode is so important and so true to how I feel too. I think calling out trauma has been something that's really near and dear to my heart and something that I had to do to prepare for my own VBAC, so I definitely recommend anybody that is going through this journey to make sure that you are taking the time to really heal from that previous birth and taking time to process and doing some fear clearing and even physical healing from the scar and doing scar massage and such like that. Also, I really think it's important to find that support and build that relationship like Hazel was talking about. Make sure you have somebody that you are able to build a relationship with and feel comfortable with because that's going to matter so much when it comes to your birth. And also, finding a doula that you have a good relationship with, not just your provider. I think those are really main things that I really try to instill in anyone that's going for a VBAC. Meagan: Absolutely. I 100% agree and Sarah, we are so happy to have you in our VBAC Link doula community. Can you tell everybody where they can find you as well? Sarah: Yeah, sure. I am in Simpsonville, South Carolina. It's in upstate South Carolina. More commonly, I guess you'd be familiar with Greenville, South Carolina. I am in that area. You can find me, mostly I hang out on Instagram, so either @sarah_marie_bilger or Entering Motherhood. You can find me there on Instagram. We're actually planning on starting up local VBAC support groups.Meagan: Oh, amazing. Sarah: So if anybody is around and in the area and interested in doing that, there's going to be me and another doula in the area. We're excited to start that and really provide in-person support for people either that have had Cesareans, may be thinking of a VBAC, or really just any realm of Cesarean/VBAC. If you've already had your VBAC and you want to come share your story of success to motivate and help women that are preparing for it as well, we're going to include story sharing and different topics to cover. Meagan: Absolutely amazing. Awesome, awesome. When all of that information is available if you wouldn't mind shooting that over to us, we will make sure that the world knows that. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for co-hosting with me today. It was such an honor to have you. Sarah: Thanks for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

We hear about the dangers of pornography, rightfully so. But can pornography ever be helpful in the process of healing from trauma and with one's sexual identity? In this podcast Sarah bravely shares her story as a faithful LDS who experienced sexual assault and how pornography helped her reclaim her identity and heal from the abuse.    0:00:00.0 Speaker 1: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of improving intimacy.   [music]   0:00:24.6 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of improving intimacy. On today's episode, we have Sarah who has offered to go into a very vulnerable and maybe even scary past with sexual assault and what you did to... Is it fair to say, heal or recover? Thrive in spite of that tragedy. So welcome, Sarah, I'm glad to have you here. This is a topic I haven't discussed yet, so one, I wanna be sensitive to your background and history, and I'll let you guide the conversation, but you've expressed the importance of sharing this for other people, so I'm excited to hear what you have to say. So Sarah, tell us a little bit about yourself. Why are you here today, and what is it exactly you wanna share?   0:01:11.7 Sarah: Well, thank you first of all for having me on. I am very passionate about this because I remember growing up thinking that this was... I was surely the only person who this was happening to, and then as we'll discuss later, some issues that came up in marriage that just increased that feeling of isolation and shame and loneliness, and I vowed at the time to... If I ever have an opportunity to talk about it, to talk about it so that someone out there is not feeling the same way I did. So that's why I'm so passionate about this, and I think we can just start with that kind of history of what it was like to grow up and date and then move into a marriage and have some of those same issues with little education.   0:01:53.5 DB: Yes, it's an important topic that we don't discuss a lot now, I appreciate your bravery in doing this, so let's... We don't need to go in, you're welcome to go into as much details you absolutely want, but for context, are you comfortable with sharing maybe the age this happened? So that we have a little understanding of the history of what's going on there and any details that you're comfortable with sharing.   0:02:18.0 Sarah: Sure, so I grew up just in a normal LDS family, a very strong LDS family, all my siblings remained active, so I had great role models, looking up to them, I was active in a Young Women's, everything was just in line for the perfect fairytale story. And I never really dated much in high school, and I just remember thinking, "Oh, I just want a boyfriend so badly," and I watched all my friends date and I just thought, "Oh, that sounds so wonderful. That's something that I'd really like." And then I had my first boyfriend, and we went out on a few dates, and I was 17 at the time. And I remember thinking, being so excited for the first kiss, and then the first kiss happened and when within maybe five to 10 seconds, my shirt was off and he was un-fastening my bra clasp and I thought...   0:03:12.7 DB: So you mean he took it off...   0:03:14.1 Sarah: Yeah, yeah, he... It was like first kiss, peck, and then I thought I was gonna have this time to like, "Oh, kinda float away and enjoy this moment of happy ever after", and I was like, "Whoa, what is going on?" And I didn't know what was going on, I didn't know what these things I was feeling, what they were, and I was just very overwhelmed with the situation and I didn't stop anything, 'cause I think I was just struck with terror and just being overwhelmed and thinking, "Well, no one's talked about what this is, I don't know what is going on." And I don't actually even remember how that ended, but I remember leaving, sitting in the car feeling like I can't go home. My parents are gonna know that I broke the Law of Chastity, I wouldn't have to talk to the bishop who's my best friend's dad...   0:04:06.0 DB: You felt responsible for it.   0:04:09.7 Sarah: 100%. It was my fault, 100%. And just that was the beginning of... And I was 17 years old, that was the beginning of not talking to my parents about these experiences, thinking that I was the only one, but also thinking that that's what every girl was experiencing.   0:04:26.9 DB: You had no idea?   0:04:27.6 Sarah: Yeah. I was the only one, yeah, I was the only one responsible but every other girl surely had to be having these experiences, but it wasn't their fault. So that was just kind of the beginning of a long trail, and I didn't necessarily at that time know that that was sexual assault. I just kind of thought, "That's dating, here we go." [chuckle]   0:04:49.3 DB: How scary.   0:04:50.9 Sarah: So scary. And he was preparing to go on a mission, and so I was like, "Oh well, he's this great guy who's gonna go and serve the Lord and do all these things, and surely it's my fault." And I'd been raised with this mentality that modesty is my responsibility and how I dress will directly impact what boys do to me and how boys think.   0:05:12.6 DB: And that's what you're thinking was your fault?   0:05:16.6 Sarah: Totally.   0:05:17.1 DB: Was because... Do you feel like you were dressed immodestly that evening?   0:05:19.6 Sarah: No, actually, I had come from playing a volleyball game, so I had been wearing athletic gear and in my mind, I'm like sweaty and gross. [chuckle] No one wants to do that, right? And also, I should note that I developed rather quickly as a child, I was... I started puberty at 10 years old, so at 10 years old, I was fully grown as a woman, and I think I internalized a lot of shame about that, of having this really grown-up body and this little girl's brain and not really understanding how to handle both of those mindsets. So when that happened, it was like, "Oh, well, that's because I have this grown woman's body, [chuckle] and he can't control himself."   0:06:03.9 DB: And therefore, it was your fault.   0:06:05.3 Sarah: Oh, totally. Totally. So that was the first experience. Then I graduated high school, he went on a mission, and I just kept having experience after experience with these boys who were raised in the same faith that I was raised in, who had just no concept of boundaries. I just started to think that if I was going to be kissed, I was gonna be touched, and there was nothing really that I could do to stop it, it was just normal. I came to expect that of good return missionaries, good boys who were leaving on missions, that was just what dating was for me. I didn't think anything different.   0:06:49.7 DB: I think that's the most tragic thing I'm hearing... Well, one, the most tragic thing is that you were abused, I guess the close second is that you weren't even aware that you were abused and taken advantage of, and at what point did you look back and say That was wrong. That wasn't my fault?   0:07:09.4 Sarah: Not until I was married.   0:07:11.3 DB: Oh, wow.   0:07:14.3 Sarah: Yeah. And because I had nothing to compare it to. I didn't know anything about sex, I didn't know anything about consent, I didn't know... And at this point, I didn't even know that girls could masturbate. [chuckle] I literally thought that it was just a boy thing.   0:07:27.2 DB: Oh, you mean physiologically.   0:07:29.4 Sarah: Yes. I didn't think it was possible. I knew absolutely nothing about sex and about body, so this was happening, and I was just thinking, "Oh, this is just normal." So I didn't equate it with abuse, I wasn't having traumatic reactions to it, but I did start to kind of spiral a little bit where I just kind of thought, "Well, if guys are gonna do this to me, then I'm just gonna kiss and have fun with whoever I want and do whatever I want and.   0:07:54.2 DB: Interesting.   0:07:56.0 Sarah: Not worry about the consequences."   0:07:58.1 DB: Tell me a little bit more about that line of thinking, what led you to that as opposed to not dating at all, maybe, or some other... I don't wanna put words in your mouth. What gave you that conclusion, you're just gonna have fun, you're gonna kiss and regardless of the consequences, what led you there?   0:08:19.4 Sarah: I think part of it was I was seeing my dear friends get married, from what I understand, and maybe they had been through similar things and just hadn't talked to me about it, but they were getting married and I wasn't. And so I kind of thought, "Oh, well, I'm just like the girl who's gonna get passed around.   0:08:38.7 DB: Oh my goodness.   0:08:38.7 Sarah: So, I'm gonna have fun in the meantime."   0:08:41.3 DB: So you were taken on a narrative that you were broken or undesired, or would that be fair to say, or what were your feelings or thoughts?   0:08:49.9 Sarah: I wasn't feeling broken, but I was feeling very much... They're just interested in my body, they're not interested in a long-term commitment, they're not interested in marriage, I'm not like these other girls, they're the marriageable type, they're just in it for my body, and at the same time, I was kind of having this body awakening where I was finally feeling my brain match up with my body in maturity, I was feeling like, "Oh, I'm coming into this woman's body, I'm feeling myself become less impulsive, I'm feeling myself develop as mentally as a woman, I'm leaving that childhood teenage years behind, I'm feeling empowered in my body. And at the same time, I'm only being wanted for my body." So I was like, "I'm just gonna use my body however I want."   0:09:42.7 DB: I'm curious, we talked about this a little before we started the podcast, and we shared some thoughts and ideas here, but for the listeners, you're in your mid-20s, just for context, so we're talking about a younger generation, and I realize... I have a good 20 years on you, and dating has always been a struggle, and so I don't know if there's a way to say it's worse now or better or the same, however, in the context that it seems like we as a church have been doing more, whether it be through fire sides or church manuals, really emphasizing how men are supposed to treat women with respect, I think they've done more with that in the last 20 years, yet, you're not alone. This is a story I hear all the time, you're just one of the first, who've been willing to come and talk about it. Tell me what are your thoughts, what's your opinion of why the young men are thinking this way, why do they think this is, okay, or do they think it's Okay?   0:10:49.2 Sarah: Well, and we know that sexual assault and rape has been around for as long as people have been on the earth, that's just... It's just the downfall of man... Well, and woman, both can be abusers or perpetrators, but I think in the context of this, there was this generation of 60s and 70s where it was free love and the world was going so radically in one direction that the church narrative pulled so radically in the other direction. I remember talking to my mom like years later, after I had actually been more assaulted and saying, "Why didn't you tell me, why didn't you tell me what to expect or tell me anything about my body, or just tell me what sex is? And she said, "Your father and I felt like if we talked about it, we were giving you permission to do it." And that to me, was just that mindset of that generation, the policies that were coming out from the church in that generation was all fear-based, shame-based and at the same time, there's more material available, so our children at this time are educating themselves with porn, which is a terrible sex educator, and they're not learning, they're not reconciling what they're seeing, what feeling and what the person in the porn is doing.   0:12:09.5 Sarah: And so if the person in porn who's on the receiving end is showing fear and showing discomfort and these young boys are watching it enjoying it, how are they to not know that it's gonna be different in person with a partner? Now how are they not... They're not gonna know, "Oh, this is a boundary that I'm crossing. This person is scared, their body is showing scared, their face is showing fear, their voice is showing fear, they may not have said, no," but... We've set them up for failure, we've set them up in this position of not knowing they're crossing boundaries, not knowing what consent is, because we've been so afraid to talk about it.   0:12:54.6 DB: I think you articulated it perfectly, this is a constant problem I'm seeing. I usually see two extremes where young men refuse to date or they don't know how to engage in dating at all, and so they don't even... It's not even a physical thing, they don't even know how to involve themselves, and again, this has always been the case, but I've been seeing this kind of this extremism getting bigger and bigger.   0:13:23.1 Sarah: The divide.   0:13:24.4 DB: And then we have the others who, while they understand that porn is bad, and it seems like in the church we've done, we've talked more about porn, we have more anti-porn programs and organizations out there than we've ever had yet this is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. And I think what I was hearing you say was, "Yes, we're told... " And I wanna clarify for the audience too, 'cause it could sound like we're saying, "Oh gosh, the church screwed up in all of its teachings there... " Do you consider yourself an active member now?   0:13:55.0 Sarah: Yeah.   0:13:55.1 DB: And this is...   0:14:00.1 Sarah: Yep, active member, temple holding member, half callings... I was the Young Women's president just barely.   0:14:03.7 DB: Forgive me, I didn't wanna make that as though that was the most important thing here, I just wanna give context that this isn't just criticism, this is crucial for a healthy, engaging dating behavior. Absolutely, and so what we see here is young men who're told what not to do, and you said it before the interview, it's because they're not taught what to do. We could talk all day and night about what not to do, but when you're placed in a situation, all you have to go off of is what you've seen and heard, and that's the don'ts and the bad role models of porn.   0:14:43.4 Sarah: Exactly. And at the same time as a girl, the rhetoric that I was receiving was not what not to do, dress your body in this way so that the boys can control their thoughts, you act this way so that you're not tempting to the boys. There was all this don't, don't, don't. And it very much was my responsibility how the boys and the men in my life treated me, and I have a fantastic father, and I have fantastic brothers who never once crossed any sort of sexual boundary, never even came close to it with anyone that I'm aware of, not with myself and not anyone else, but it was... I remember walking up to the stand to give a Young Women talk thinking, "Oh my gosh, are the men in the ward like looking at my butt?"   0:15:28.3 DB: Oh my goodness.   0:15:29.1 Sarah: As I walk up there, "Is my skirt too tight? Are my hips too wide? Am I... [chuckle] Are they cheating on their wives by lusting after me?"   0:15:37.6 DB: Because... Oh my goodness.   0:15:38.1 Sarah: And I was like 16.   0:15:41.8 DB: First of all, the thought that comes to me is, "No youth, should ever be concerned with that thinking about that," and you're saying those fears and concerns were present because of the modesty lessons that you've received.   0:15:53.0 Sarah: Totally.   0:15:55.7 DB: And thinking that you need to do everything you can to help protect these men, young and old from being tempted.   0:16:03.8 Sarah: Totally.   0:16:06.0 DB: That's heavy.   0:16:07.4 Sarah: Super heavy.   0:16:07.9 DB: This is heavy, and I'm gonna diverge just a little bit here, because I think it's important to speak to... People are probably listening here and saying, "Oh gosh, Well, if young men understand that porn is bad, then why are they behaving... " Okay, I hear that they weren't taught how to behave correctly, a little insight that I've discovered in working with young men is this kind of same thing again, they have been tempted, they cannot resist their urges... Sorry, this is the scripts that they're told once they experience desire, they're on a dangerous path. One support group, and I don't mean to be critical, but the concern is one support group actually says it's Satan's Chemical, and this is an LDS support group, so imagine... So the reason why I'm bringing this up is you as a 16-year-old, you were concerned about married men sinning by looking at you.   0:17:10.4 Sarah: Yes.   0:17:10.4 DB: And now, with young men, what I've seen is something similar, different, but similar in that they start to have this experience where they're getting aroused, they have an erection, they immediately think, they're doomed. I had one 14-year-old tell me, I thought... I thought he... I'm not trying to be loose with my words or silly at all, this is the impression and his countenance when he came in, I thought he killed somebody. This kid was scared and he looked at me and he started to say things like, young man saying things like, "I'm on the path to becoming a rapist, I'm on a path to become a serial killer." He was saying these things, and then he said something that just... That alone was scary and heavy, but where I'm going with this is, he said, "I've also destroyed my... " What was the word he used? He said something to the effect of, "I've disappointed my future wife and let my future kids down."   0:18:18.6 Sarah: That's so sad.   0:18:19.9 DB: Just like you... Well, again, different, but like you're carrying this huge weight, so these young men, what I'm seeing is they feel like they're at this impossible journey.   0:18:32.0 DB: And so, they just give up and they say, "I'm just doing it, I'm already gone." And this poor kid, he was scared out of his mind. So people are probably listening say, "Still why would... " Well, because they're not taught what is good, so all they're going off of is their fear and they're giving in because they recognize, they can't even resist it, it seems impossible. That relate to your experience or what are your thoughts?   0:19:01.9 Sarah: Totally. Well, it's... Looking back now, and even at the time, I thought, "These were good guys." In every other regard, they were good guys. And then, I think it just was... There was no boundary, there was no consent. It's hard because we've damaged both, both genders in this talk, we've told the girls that it's their responsibility and they're... Sorry for the strong language, but they're damned for having the female bodies, and we've told the boys they're damned for having physiological responses that they can't control. [chuckle] And this is the extreme that I think we deal with is... I was 21 years old and my minor was sex education, and I remember sitting at the University of Utah, going and my professor saying female masturbation and going, "That's not possible." I was 21, and I had no clue that that was something that girls did, because I had only ever heard masturbation in reference to boys in the church, and that was the extent of my sex education, that was a mind-blowing thing of like, "Holy cow." We have hurt each other so badly just by not knowing, A How our bodies work. B, our bodies are working normally, and C, let's now communicate with each other. None of that was in my vocabulary.   0:20:30.0 Sarah: So to kind of continue with my story...   0:20:31.2 DB: Please.   0:20:31.5 Sarah: I kinda went through this rough patch where I was like, "I'm just gonna kiss anyone who has two legs and walks into the room." And at the same time, I'm still... I'm the secretary in the Relief Society presidency in my singles ward, and I feel like I'm living these two separate lives. There's the version of me who is dating and there's a version of me who's going to church and I can't reconcile them. And then the age I turned in my mission papers and I said, "I'm gonna go on a mission, that's gonna be what's kinda turned my life around, I'm gonna go on a mission." So I got myself straightened out, I went on a mission, I had a great time, I came back, and then I started dating again. And this guy who I was dating, I thought, "This is gonna be different." He took a couple of weeks to kiss me, we went out for a couple of times, and my mission for me was very empowering because I learned how to speak up and out for myself, I think it's really hard to go on a mission and not kinda gain that confidence, a little bit in yourself. So I came back with that confidence of, I'm gonna...   0:21:47.6 Sarah: Now I know how to say no. And then I started dating this guy, and it's like, "Oh, it's different." He's being such a gentleman. And this could be, this could be the long-term thing, and then things started to change again.   0:22:01.3 DB: My goodness.   0:22:03.7 Sarah: So we had to hung out one night and his parents had left out of town, and he was like, "Why don't you come out, you come over, and we'll just, hang out and it'll be a really good evening, and... " I ended up spending the night. And nothing like nothing happened during the night, we just fell asleep in the bed, we cuddled all night long, there was no sexual pressure, and then it was in the middle of the night, something changed, and then suddenly it was like he was begging me to do all of these things, and I just said, "What is wrong with you? What has happened?" And...   0:22:44.2 DB: You called him out.   0:22:45.2 Sarah: I called him out, and he... And then I just said to him, "When was the last time you looked at porn?" And he disclosed to me that he... And he said he'd had a porn addiction since he was 14. And at this stage in my life, I was like, "Oh, well, that's okay. I know a lot of guys deal with that, so this isn't gonna end our relationship, but I want you to work through it and I want you to talk to the bishop, and I don't expect perfection, but I do want respect." So I'm thinking, I'm so grown up, I'm having this really grown-up conversation. This guy is telling... I won't go too far into what I think about that now, but for the context of the story at this time, I was thinking, "I'm so great that I can work through this with him, and he's so great that he's being honest with me." So I think we're on a great path and we keep dating, and then he just starts walking across that boundary again, and I just keep thinking, "Oh my gosh, I've gotta fix him, I've got to be sexier, so he's not looking at porn. I've got to... " And I was trying so hard not to do the things that he was wanting me to do, and at the same time he was telling me, "If you don't do these things, I'm gonna look at porn."   0:24:02.9 DB: Oh my goodness.   0:24:04.8 Sarah: So again, I'm like, "Holy crap, how am I back at this spot where I'm again responsible for this guy's sexuality?" At the same time he's telling me he loves me and he wants to get married, there was just something about the relationship that was making me stick my heels. And if, "We're not gonna be exclusive, we're gonna date other people, 'cause you can't figure this out, and until you can figure this out, I'm not jumping in with you." And I think honestly, that was probably, is the spirit trying to keep me safe, and I didn't recognize it at the time, but... This was the relationship where it turned violent pretty quick.   0:24:42.4 DB: Physically violent?   0:24:43.3 Sarah: Sexually violent. So there was just a lot of fear involved in it, there was a lot of manipulation, there was me saying, No. Me begging to stop, and there was just, No, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do." But it had never turned into full penetration, and then he at some point in the relationship, he brings up marriage again, "If we get married, I'll be able to stop looking at this porn because we'll be able to do everything that we want. It won't be... "   0:25:14.2 DB: Such a lack of education there.   [laughter]   0:25:17.1 Sarah: Huge lack of education.   0:25:17.9 DB: Or bad education.   0:25:21.6 Sarah: Yeah.   0:25:21.7 DB: Oh my goodness, and...   0:25:21.8 Sarah: And I'm believing it, because I don't have any education either, so... And my minor now is in sex education and I'm like, "Sure...   0:25:30.2 DB: Yeah, I was going to bring that up.   0:25:30.3 Sarah: Great. This will fix it." 'Cause that's what we've been taught in the church is like, you get married and then it's, "No, it's no, no, no, to go, go go, and all your sexual problems are gone."   0:25:38.4 DB: Yeah, it's one of the biggest myths. I don't think it's fair to say a lie, because I think the leadership and the people who are saying this truly believe it, I don't think they're being deceptive, but it just goes to the core of this whole podcast episode is the lack of education. The lack of good education, not just in the negative, but in informative strategies, and I don't even know where that idea came from, that if you get married, the porn habit goes away. That couldn't be further from the truth.   0:26:11.0 Sarah: Right?   0:26:12.1 DB: If it does, it's coincidental. That's mere coincidence. We could talk about that a little bit more, but this is sad, this is the thing that is most upsetting to me when working with people who have a lack of sexual education, 'cause all they know is porn is bad, but they have no idea of what it looks like to have a healthy relationship. So you're dealing with this. Are you able to say... Can you say, how you got out of it, or what did you do?   0:26:46.4 Sarah: Yeah. So there were... So while we were dating, I kept thinking, there's this other guy who I know, we're really good friends. If he would just come to me and just say, "Hey, would you marry me? I would do it in a heartbeat." I just felt so strongly about this friend, and at the same time this other guy is treating me so poorly, and I'm thinking it's all my fault, and I'm feeling so guilty and I'm going to my Bishop and I'm telling my Bishop, "These things are happening. How do I fix them?" And he's giving me more tools than anyone ever had, he's giving me books about pornography, he's giving me... Which were I think, [chuckle] very skewed towards the church's narrative. I don't think they were necessarily a scientifically-based, they were much more along the basis of, "It's an addiction. It's the same thing as doing cocaine", which is absolutely not true.   0:27:44.9 DB: I wanna get into that. And of course, I don't wanna diverge you... I do wanna come back to that. So he was helpful. Was that... At what point... Okay, so what you're saying is that guidance was helpful in ending this current relationship?   0:28:00.5 Sarah: It was helpful in knowing that it wasn't just my fault.   0:28:03.0 DB: Okay.   0:28:03.3 Sarah: And that I could be empowered in the relationship, and he was the first person who kind of said to me like, "If this isn't the future you want, then you don't have to be in it."   0:28:14.2 DB: Good for him.   0:28:15.1 Sarah: Right? And so, but there was still... And that's the hard part about Bishops is that, I think if it had been someone with clinical understanding, they would have said, "This is an abusive relationship," and instead it was like, "If you just don't want porn to be a part of your relationship, just date someone else." And I was like, "Well, that would be nice, but open your eyes, that's not possible."   0:28:40.3 DB: Exactly.   0:28:40.8 Sarah: So at this point, I'm taking my garments off, 'cause I just feel so unworthy and...   0:28:48.7 DB: You weren't instructed to, you just chose to.   0:28:51.1 Sarah: No. And I'm just myself choosing not to take the sacrament, 'cause I just feel so unworthy. And then this guy who I've thought so much about calls me out of the blue and he's like, "Hey, let's go to lunch." And we go to lunch one day and I just thought, "Okay, I'm ending it. I'm ending it because there's something about this guy, I'm gonna end it." So I did, I ended this relationship, then I didn't hear from this guy again. [chuckle]   0:29:20.6 DB: The guy you were interested?   0:29:21.7 Sarah: Yeah. The guy that I was interested, who kinda gave me hope again for men, and I was like, "Well, that's probably better, 'cause I'm in the spot where I probably need to do some healing and working on myself and... " So I don't date anyone for a while, and I work on myself, and then I'm getting lonely, getting really lonely, and I run into this guy who I had been... This guy who I'd been in the relationship with, and I run into him on campus and he's like, "Hey, do you wanna come over?"   0:30:00.3 DB: Even though you've cut it off?   0:30:00.5 Sarah: Yeah, I've cut off. It's been months and I was so lonely that I was like...   0:30:03.9 DB: 'Cause, there's no boundaries.   0:30:05.0 Sarah: Yeah, there's no boundaries and I'm just lonely. So I'm like, "Yeah, of course," it's like, we're good friends and I still cared about him even though, 'cause I didn't know that it was an abusive relationship.   0:30:14.5 DB: Right. And I'm making an assumption here. You just said that you were really lonely, and do you feel like that played into you saying yes also, or...   0:30:26.4 Sarah: Yeah, totally. I just was... I was lonely, all my friends had been married, I'm just back from my mission. [chuckle] It's a hard transition back. We've been dating for seven or eight months when we ended it, so now it's probably like nine or 10 months after, and so we just start talking again, we just started being friends. And then, the other guy who I was interested in at the other time, he calls me up, and he's like, "Do you wanna go on a date?"   0:30:57.9 DB: His timing is interesting.   0:31:00.8 Sarah: At the same time. Yes. So at the same time, these guys are like back in my life at the exact same time, and... So long story short, I ended up saying... This is gonna be so confusing probably to the listeners, but I ended up saying to this guy who I had been dating, "Hey, this other guy asked me out." And, 'cause we were just friends and something... I saw something in his eyes switch. He was like, "Oh, well, yeah, you always talked about him and how much you liked him and how much you respected him, and he's kind of the obstacle that was in our path of us moving forward." I was like, "Not really."   0:31:37.6 DB: Rather he's... The hope in saving you?   0:31:38.9 Sarah: Yeah, I was like, No, it was probably the narrative, but I had, was that I was responsible for your sexuality, for your porn use, and I couldn't fix that anymore, so he ended up asking me to join him for the middle of the day for lunch, and I went over...   0:31:58.3 DB: Which one?   0:31:58.3 Sarah: The guy who I had dated.   0:32:00.7 DB: Okay.   0:32:00.9 Sarah: So I went over to his house during lunch, we left campus together, he drove me there and we were... I remember thinking, "Okay, are we ever gonna eat lunch?" 'Cause we just sat in his room for a while, and then he raped me. And I just remember laying there and it just started off as just normal kissing, and I was like, "Hey, this is weird, but where is this going?" And then it was right back to 17-year-old me who suddenly was being touched and this time I was saying, "No, please stop. No, I don't want this." And it happened anyway. And so that happens, and I looked at him afterwards and he got up and he said, "Let's go back to school." And I looked at him and I hugged him. I hugged him, and I said, "I didn't want that to happen." And I hugged him, 'cause I was so scared that I wasn't gonna be, like I wasn't gonna survive or something, like... My brain just went in to do whatever you need to do to get out of there.   0:33:09.1 DB: Trauma mode.   0:33:09.9 Sarah: Oh, totally. So we got back at school and then I called my... I texted my friend and I texted her and I said, "I just had sex. What do I do now?" And this friend had had sex before marriage as well when she was dating.   0:33:26.6 DB: Not, I was raped, and how do I report him, but what do you do?   0:33:30.1 Sarah: No. No. 100 percent, in my mind it was, "I had had sex." So I call her and she's like, "Oh, it's okay, you'll be okay, it's hard, but you can... You might not be able to take the sacrament for a couple of months, but you can get back and call your Bishop and... " So at this point, I am about to go into work, I'm sick to my stomach, I am shaking and I think, "I just had sex for the first time." So I call my Bishop, I go to the Bishop's office or I go to his house, 'cause it was a Friday night and I'm just devastated, and I walk in and he's like, "What can I do for you?" And I slide my temple garment across the table to him, and I'm like, "I'm no longer worthy of this." And he was like, "Okay, well, tell me what happened?" And so I start saying, start describing to him what happened, and.   0:34:24.6 DB: Is this is the same Bishop that provided you good resources? .   0:34:27.2 Sarah: Yes. Thank goodness.   0:34:27.8 DB: Yes.   0:34:28.4 Sarah: Same Bishop, and he stops me and he says, "No, you didn't have sex. You were raped." And it just suddenly was like, "That's what that was."   0:34:39.2 DB: He called it out.   0:34:39.4 Sarah: He called it out.   0:34:41.1 DB: Excellent.   0:34:41.6 Sarah: Yes, and he said, "I have, I've known you for a while. I've been working with you for a while, from what you've described, your relationship with this guy, you've tried really, really hard, and he has not respected that, and he took full advantage of you and he raped you." And I just sat there stunned. I finally had a word for what was happening, and thank goodness, this Bishop was so in tune and he said, "You know, I don't know how to help you." He said, "I can help you with spiritual healing if you need it, but I don't know how to help you and I'm gonna pay for you to find help." 'Cause at this point, I also didn't have insurance and I was too afraid to tell my parents, so I'm like, [chuckle] "Ah, what do I do?" And I didn't go to the hospital to get any forensic exams done, 'cause I didn't know I had been raped, and suddenly here's this ecclesiastical leader pointing me in the direction of help, and it was life-saving, so he paid for me to see a therapist and I was in therapy within a week, and that made all the difference in my life. And I had a male therapist where... He said, "I'm gonna send you to a male therapist" and I said, "What have you been smoking Bishop? I'm not gonna go sit across from a man and tell him what happened." And he said, "I think that you need a man to listen to you." And so I had to sit...   0:36:02.1 DB: This Bishop wasn't a counsel, he had no training.   0:36:05.1 Sarah: No. No training.   0:36:07.6 DB: This is interesting. Sorry, I think this is actually an important concept that a lot of...   0:36:12.6 Sarah: Totally.   0:36:12.7 DB: People don't realize. When I was working, in my training, I was serving the community in a community center, and that was the first time that I found women who had been raped were asking for male therapists, and that was before I really understood something called Gestalt therapy, if you're familiar.   0:36:30.3 Sarah: Yes. Yeah.   0:36:32.4 DB: And this is their opportunity... There's many reasons to do this, and there are some... I wanna be clear, there are some reasons not to do it either also, and so what this allows, and I'm curious to hear your experiences is, I like how the Bishop said, is it gives a man an opportunity, you get to have a man listen to you and validate you. It also provides the victim an opportunity in a gestalt model for those who aren't familiar, there's this concept of empty chair or imagining that the therapist is your aggressor and you lash out at them in a therapeutic way or whatever, you confront them that way, and so it can be very therapeutic if you're ready for that. It's always hard to tell. But what was your experience? So he suggested this, it looked like you're a little surprised.   0:37:25.1 Sarah: Totally.   0:37:26.4 DB: But you followed through and you found a male therapist?   0:37:28.0 Sarah: Yeah, he actually gave me a referral, he said I... He had had a friend who was a therapist or was very aware of clinical concepts or whatever that... She suggested I see a man. So he gave me the number, I called and made the appointment myself. And I walked in not really knowing what to expect. I had never been to therapy before, and I walked in and I sat down and just kind of started talking about my life and my past and everything that was going on in this relationship and being stuck on the concept of like, "I had lost my virginity." One thing that he said in that first day was, "No. No, you don't lose your virginity, that's a social construct, you don't lose your virginity. No one takes that from you." And that was the beginning of realizing, "Okay, I've got some very unhealthy and harmful narratives in my mind, and I need to change them."   0:38:26.9 DB: So, you're presenting this is as very accepting and like, "Oh, yeah." What's it like that for you at the moment? Did you push back at all? Did you... What was your awakening, healing process like, was it difficult to receive that information or was it healing?   0:38:43.5 Sarah: The difference was, is that he was clinically trained, and so he... As opposed to saying it to a bishop or a parent, he had this clinical training to... I could see the surprise on his face when I was telling him these things that I thought were normal. And so, much like, right now, I'm telling you things and you have these surprise looks on your face and it's so validating.   0:39:04.9 DB: Oh good. [laughter]   0:39:06.9 Sarah: Right? It is 100% validating to think, "These things that I thought were normal, that every girl experienced, are horrifying to this man, and he would never treat a girl this way or a female this way." And I can see it on his face. And he's a member of the church, and this isn't right.   0:39:24.4 DB: The therapist?   0:39:25.3 Sarah: Yeah, this therapist. So that was probably what made me actually accept it, was that, "Here's this guy who believes the same thing I do, who is horrified and shocked and in tears at some point with what I'm telling him and how I've assumed and accepted as a normal behavior."   0:39:47.6 DB: You can't... I don't know, I can't speak for every therapist, but I've heard stories and no two stories are the same. Everybody's experience is unique, but it's heart wrenching each time. I hope, one, I hope I never get used to hearing it. If I do, I need to check myself.   [laughter]   0:40:11.7 DB: It's heart-breaking, and again, to repeat what you're saying, this at the beginning... This is why it's so important for you to speak out and I appreciate that. So, continue from there. What was your journey like? How long were you in therapy? What was your discoveries along that path?   0:40:28.7 Sarah: Well, I think the most important discovery that we made in therapy together was I had this pattern of dating guys who I thought I could fix. 'Cause that was also a narrative that I had taken on is like, "As a disciple of Christ and as a woman of Christ, I have to fix people and I'm gonna make them better." And he said, "You date these people who you think you need to fix, and this is... So, this is like you're going along in your car, and I want you to think of your rape as like you've hit a brick wall. And that brick wall is stopping you from what could be." And I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, if I had married that guy, this would have been my life, and I would not have known." And it always shocks people when I say this, but I will say it, I'm so grateful for it. I'm so grateful for that experience because I walked out of therapy going, "Not again. No one will ever treat me that way again, and I'm not gonna date a guy who's gonna treat me like that." And long story short, I ended up marrying that other guy.   0:41:33.8 DB: The one that was...   [chuckle]   0:41:34.1 Sarah: Yeah. The one who I always wanted to date while I was dating this other guy. We got our act together and we ended up getting married. So, that was... And he was the exact opposite. He was the guy... And ironically, I thought before this experience, I was never good enough for him, either. He's this amazing, incredible guy, and I was like, "I'm not good enough." And I walked out of therapy going, "Oh, I am so good enough for him, and he would be so lucky to have me."   [laughter]   0:42:06.6 DB: What a wonderful discovery. And you brought up something that we kind of glossed over it. I can't tell you how many women end up marrying a situation like that where, because they don't have this discovery, and I'm not... This is tragic. And it's years later that they discover this was horrible. So I appreciate, and I realize it's probably difficult for a lot of people to hear it. We're clearly not saying the abuse was okay.   0:42:36.4 Sarah: No, not at all.   0:42:39.3 DB: But that, as a result, you were awakened, it was an opportunity to get help and to discover more. I'm sure it wasn't as simple as having that discovery and everything's better.   0:42:53.6 Sarah: No, not at all.   0:42:53.7 DB: What was that journey like from there on out? So, you're dating your husband, and...   0:42:58.3 Sarah: So, we're dating, and I'm thinking, "Okay, that's the end of our... The end of my sexual problems." [chuckle] And again, great guy, we start dating, he takes like a month to kiss me and then it's just like little pecks here and there for months, and I'm finally like, "Hey... "   0:43:14.0 DB: Is he aware of this recent experience yet?   0:43:18.1 Sarah: So at this point, no, at this point...   0:43:21.0 DB: So, he's acting all on his accord, he's not... He's not like over...   0:43:23.2 Sarah: Yes. He's not being over-aware or over-sensitive or over-thinking anything.   0:43:28.6 DB: I think that's important for the listeners to know.   0:43:29.0 Sarah: Totally. Yeah.   0:43:30.2 DB: So this is... You found a guy who's true to his behavior here. This is...   0:43:35.5 Sarah: Yeah. He is living his behavior, he is showing me his behavior. And I'm starting to get worried of like, "Okay, why is this not unfolding? Why are we not progressing at all?" And...   0:43:46.8 DB: Isn't that interesting? You're expecting this will happen.   0:43:51.3 Sarah: Yes. I'm expecting that this will happen, 'cause I wanted to, know... I wanted to be able to say no, I like, I was gonna set those boundaries and like we're gonna talk about them, there's gonna be none of this business going on. And he kisses me one night and I pull away from him and I go, "Why won't you kiss me for longer?" And he goes, "I don't wanna have an erection." And I was like, "What? [chuckle] What are you saying?" And he said, "If I have an erection, I'm being disrespectful to you."   0:44:19.0 DB: Wow.   0:44:19.5 Sarah: And he said, My... He had a Bishop when he was 16, tell him the erections were breaking law of chastity, and I was like, "Hey, buddy, if we're kissing and you don't have that response, there's something wrong. There's a bigger issue." [laughter] I was just was so shocked.   0:44:38.7 DB: You had such insight... You had that insight at that time?   0:44:41.7 Sarah: Yeah.   0:44:41.9 DB: Is that something you learned... Forgive me, I'm coming from maybe a place of ignorance here in making some assumptions. After your traumatic experiences, it would seem like, my naive response here, "Oh, good, you're not. You would... " Some people might feed that behavior and say, "Oh good, now I know I'm safe." What allowed you to say, "Oh, this is actually unhealthy?"   0:45:08.6 Sarah: So, my therapist and I worked a lot through that. 'Cause my therapist was very concerned that I started dating this guy, 'cause he said, "You know, I don't want that...   0:45:16.8 DB: Your now husband.   0:45:17.7 Sarah: Yes, my now husband. "I don't want you to feel like that you're getting into this relationship where he's saving you and you're working through some really traumatic things, and we don't want to get that tied up in your relationship."   0:45:29.1 DB: Good.   0:45:29.5 Sarah: So we worked very closely to... And I was very transparent with my therapist with this, now relation... My husband. And so I was talking to him about these concerns and he said, "Well, why don't you just ask him?" I was, at this point, and we had talked about how it's, an erection is a normal response to any sort of stimulus and not to fear it. So I didn't. I wasn't fearing it. And he said, "Any guy who's gonna respect your boundaries is gonna be able to say, 'My pants will calm down,' and I won't touch you." [chuckle] And I... Yeah, I just... I knew this guy was gonna be that way, there was just something about him that he... From the very beginning, he respected me. So, I have this discussion with him and I'm like, "Why are you not kissing me longer, and he's like, I don't wanna disrespect you, is disrespect for you." And I'm like, "Well, I would like to make out. [laughter] So, I'd like to kiss you a little bit longer." And we've been dating for months and let's see if this is going somewhere, and... So, long story short is, he had a lot of that narrative in his mind that he was so afraid of disrespecting women and girls that he had shut down everything.   0:46:40.8 DB: Like I was saying at the beginning.   0:46:41.8 Sarah: Totally. He is the opposite.   0:46:42.7 DB: That extreme. Yeah. I wanna point out, and I hope you don't feel like I'm putting you on a pedestal here, but it sounds like, and I realized, we're reflecting back on the past, the maturity that you gained to have that conversation is amazing.   0:47:00.8 Sarah: Thank you.   0:47:00.9 DB: It's... I don't want that to come out in a way that if others have been through a traumatic experience, can't do that, as any way shameful.   0:47:10.0 Sarah: Not at all.   0:47:10.1 DB: But I wanna emphasize how significant that is, that you didn't just run away or stay or not say anything at all. There's this culture of, "Don't talk about it at all." But you used it as an opportunity to connect with him. Which is a huge part of what I believe is healing, creating connection.   0:47:31.9 Sarah: Totally.   0:47:32.9 DB: Have an awareness of each other as opposed to assuming and labeling and ignoring or just not discussing. That is... I'm trying not to be extreme in my language, but that is truly impressive.   0:47:47.8 Sarah: Thank you.   0:47:48.7 DB: And I think it's important for the listeners to understand both how difficult that is and the fact that you were able to do it, was beautiful.   0:47:56.7 Sarah: Thank you. Well, and I do... It was so helpful to be falling in love, at the same point in therapy, weekly, [chuckle] and at the same point, having these really open discussions with the suitor. So, we'll fast forward to a couple of weeks and he's doing something playfully, like I think he picked me up and twirled me around and I had a traumatic response and I shoved him. And he stepped back and looked at me and was like, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." And I was like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you're fine. I just don't like... "   0:48:35.6 DB: You're still taking the responsibility.   0:48:36.9 Sarah: Yeah. I was like, "I just don't like being picked up." And later that night, I thought, "Okay, I've got to tell him what's going on. I don't want him to think that this is his fault, and, well, this needs to be... "   0:48:47.9 DB: Oh, that's right. 'Cause you hadn't shared with him yet. So this was your opportunity.   0:48:49.0 Sarah: Yeah. So, at this point he has no idea what's going on. And so I sat him down on the couch and I said, "Listen, this is what's happened, and I understand if you wanna walk away." And he was like, "Why would I walk [chuckle] away?" And he just sat and cried.   0:49:04.7 DB: What a different experience?   0:49:05.9 Sarah: So different. He sat and cried with me, he held me while I cried, and he... I don't know how he did this, but he managed his traumatic response in front of me. So, he cried, he... And I told him, "This is a lot for you to handle, I understand that, if you need to tell someone, if you need to tell your parents, if you need to tell a bishop, if you need to tell a friend, please tell someone so you're not holding this by yourself. I have my people who are holding it with me, please get your people." And he... That's when he had his traumatic response of like, "I'm gonna kill this guy, I'm gonna find him... " That's when he had his response to my trauma, but that I was... I didn't have to carry it. And I think that's why we are married. [chuckle] He was able to separate that. [laughter]   0:49:51.1 DB: Yes. And I'm gonna point that out. How crucial that is, again, not to put you on a pedestal, but your ability to create differentiation in the relationship early on and not feel like, while you're communicating and being open and creating connection, you also emphasized, "I'm carrying my load, I've got my people, and if this is concerning, the most effective way to deal is get your own people. Let's not blend our trauma together. Let's support each other, but let's not be each other's therapist."   0:50:22.7 Sarah: Oh yeah.   0:50:23.0 DB: There's a fine line there, of course, but... Very impressive.   0:50:28.5 Sarah: And his mom has been a therapist, and so I said, "Please talk to your mom about this." And I was trying to not be ashamed, and so I didn't want this to be a secret. So I didn't want... You know, [chuckle] to be like, "Oh, my girlfriend's gone through something, but I can't tell my parents about it." It was like, "If I'm a part of your family, this is a part of my life, like this, we're not gonna put it in the closet, it's just gonna be out there. It's what it is." And so our relationship progressed. He went to therapy by himself. He came to therapy with me a few times, and we fell in love, and we got married and I was like, "Okay, here we go, here comes sex. Real sex."   0:51:05.5 DB: Oh-oh.   0:51:06.1 Sarah: Good sex.   0:51:07.1 DB: So, it is good, everything's great, happy ever after, right?   0:51:11.4 Sarah: We would like to think, right? So, back to my Bishop, great insightful Bishop, where we are... We're getting ready to get married and he pulls us in his office and he says, "You guys, this is gonna be hard for Sarah. It's gonna be really hard for Sarah to go from these traumatic experiences to, Let's do it all in one night." And he says, "I'd like you to explore each other's bodies." And he said, Your only... He gave us limits and he said, "Your only limits are oral and penetrative sex."   0:51:45.5 DB: Your Bishop counselled you this?   [chuckle]   0:51:46.6 Sarah: My Bishop.   0:51:47.3 DB: I want his name and number.   [laughter]   0:51:49.3 Sarah: Alright.   0:51:50.4 DB: This is phenomenal. When you heard him say that, what was your response?   0:51:56.0 Sarah: Well, I was like, jaw dropped. Because my husband's bishop, at that time, he was like, "You can't touch each other at all. Satan's gonna be trying to destroy you as a family, and if you... "   0:52:08.4 DB: Oh, yeah. I hear that all the time.   0:52:09.7 Sarah: Yeah. [chuckle] "If you touch each other at all, you're gonna have sex, the passion is just so alive, no touching yourselves"   0:52:14.9 DB: You no longer have agency.   0:52:16.3 Sarah: Right. Like, we're children again. And then we had my bishop who was like, "Please get to know each other before you have sex." And we talked about it as a couple, and we decided, "Okay, what is appropriate for us? What do we feel like we can handle? What's our plan in case we start to feel overwhelmed? What happens if I have a traumatic response? And what are our boundaries?" And we talked about those things that people don't talk about in their marriage for years. And it just set us up on what I thought was the perfect happy ever after.   0:52:51.2 Sarah: So, we get married in the temple. We have a great sex life for a couple of months and then I can't get there. I can't climax. And I remember, [chuckle] it was Valentine's night, I had bought, on a meager student income, I had bought this red piece of lingerie and I was so excited. And I was anticipating it so much and looking forward to connecting so much, and then I was feeling the feeling, feeling the build-up and then, boom, exhaustion, can't get there. My husband gets up and puts his garments back on and I just remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, I'm so broken. I am so broken." And that was my spiral back down hill, that night. That's when everything changed from it being something that my husband and I participate in together where my pleasure matters as much as his pleasure, and we need to be clear that my bit does. My husband has never once pressured me, he's always been 100% understanding. We both just didn't have the tools. So, this is the spiral of...   0:54:06.0 DB: You not only didn't have the tools, 'cause that's my concern in general, is no one's taught how to have intimate relationships, sex and orgasm. Who teaches that? But you're up against also trauma.   0:54:20.1 Sarah: Yeah.   0:54:21.3 DB: And so you've got a few fronts here that you're battling, and this is happening at this moment. So, where do you go from there?   0:54:29.3 Sarah: So months progress and I'm just becoming increasingly more depressed and I'm feeling increasingly more isolated. I started seeing a different therapist, I had moved, so I had a different therapist. It was a sex therapist. And the sex therapist kept telling me it's this trauma that's in the way of you being able to connect with your husband, and I was sitting there saying, "It's not the trauma. I've worked through so much of the trauma. Of course, I have bad nights where something triggers me and I can identify the trigger and work through it, but it's not the trauma that's preventing me from this." So I tried a different sex therapists, and I tried an OB-GYN. And I tried a different OB-GYN. And the problem was, is I would feel the build-up and I would... We'd be in the moment and we'd be feeling really, really good, and then I would just hit this wall of exhaustion. And it felt like I was being knocked off my feet. And it was time and time and time again, and I just started feeling like, "I'm only here to be like this vessel for other men's pleasure. And it's not... My husband's not making me feel this way, this is how God designed my body to be a vessel for other men's pleasure, not my own, for other men's pleasure."   0:55:45.1 Sarah: And that was the beginning of just months, years of severe depression and anxiety, and it got so bad that I had suicidal ideation. Because my husband and I have always been able to be so transparent from the beginning, I was able to disclose to him, that I was having these ideations and he said, "Okay, you've gotta get help, like this is obviously not working." It terrified him enough that I could see on his face of like just the idea of that was so scary, I don't think I could ever go through with it, which kind of brought me back to reality. But... So, nothing's changing, I'm just super depressed. I'm seeing doctors who are saying, "We're just gonna prescribe you these anti-depressants, it will kill your libido. Here's some anti-anxiety, work on your trauma." So I start EMDR. And so, for those of the listeners, it's a great form of trauma therapy where you process it without really describing it, so you're not re-victimizing yourself, you're processing more of what your body is holding on to. So, I go through it and I'm like, That's not the trauma. It's not... There's something that's stopping me, physio... My physical body is stopping me.   0:57:01.0 Sarah: There's something in the way. I can feel it. So again, I'm just hopeless. No one's believing me. Every single person is telling me it's your trauma, which was at this point, more traumatic than my trauma.   0:57:13.5 DB: Interesting, yes. I was actually gonna point that out and... Well, I won't jump ahead here. I wanna reflect back on that but... So what was it? What did you end up discovering?   0:57:27.2 Sarah: So I... So we move out of state, and I'm talking to this woman in my new ward and something... She was a doula. So for those who aren't aware of what a doula is, they're basically a birthing partner. So they... She professionally goes in and helps women deliver their babies as their advocate, and I had... She had mentioned to me that what got her interested in it was she had had a traumatic response giving birth because she had been molested as a child, and that resurfaced for her during her birth. And I was like, "Holy crap. That might happen to me." And so I disclosed to her my history of sexual assault, and then I disclosed to her my problem of not being able to climax. And she didn't bat an eye. She said, "Oh, go visit a pelvic floor physical therapist." And she gave me a name. So I made this appointment and I go in, and at this point, I have kind of like this PTSD from visiting providers. 'Cause none of them believe me. Everyone is telling me... It ranges from, "It's your trauma," to, "Let go of how you view yourself. Your body image part... " And I'm like, "I've never once said that I don't like the way I look in sex."   [laughter]   0:58:36.5 Sarah: Everyone's pointing out these emotional things or these things that we've put on women that I'm like, "It's none of those. I'm not telling you like... Listen to me, please." So I walk in, and I sit down, and she started crying, this physical therapist, and she said, "You are the hardest client to get in my doors because everyone gives up on you."   0:59:01.7 DB: Mm-hmm. Yes. Gives up on you in the sense of they think it's something else?   0:59:09.4 Sarah: Yes.   0:59:09.6 DB: Yes.   0:59:09.9 Sarah: They think it's something else. And she said, "It is so common." She said the clients who have it the most are religious clients, which I think is ironic.   0:59:17.2 DB: That's well-studied, actually.   0:59:18.1 Sarah: Very religious people and athletes. And I was both. So she... I remember her saying, "You'll have an orgasm within a month." And I was going like, "Yeah, right."   0:59:27.8 DB: So let me pause you there before we get on to the healing, hopefully, is...   [laughter]   0:59:32.4 DB: That's what I was wanting to speak to, is in no way is this a criticism. I am so thankful for the research and the skills that trauma therapists and trauma training in general has brought to clinicians. However, what I'm seeing is an imbalance in assessment. A lot of clinicians are jumping to trauma, which isn't wrong, and trauma is still playing a part of your life.   1:00:04.3 Sarah: Totally.   1:00:07.5 DB: However, there's... Your body is made up of a bunch of more things than just trauma and just the things that you were bringing up. Everything needs to be explored, and I think that's a critical part of assessment. And I'm in a tricky spot as a male therapist who often will engage in thorough assessment. Like yes, fully recognize there's trauma. Is there potentially anything else biologically going on, emotionally going on that's disconnected from that? And that's often perceived as minimizing trauma, and it's a tricky place to be in because... Absolutely, there's trauma there, but I'm seeing a lot of what's happening, what happened to you, where your actual health concern wasn't related to the trauma, at least not the majority of it. And finally, somebody found out. You found the right person, rather, and they guided you. So do you mind sharing what the procedure was? I think I know where you're going with this.   1:01:04.1 Sarah: Yeah. So it was just pelvic floor physical therapy. So it was all internal work. So basically she inserted her fingers into my vagina and was able to release the tension. And what she said that was so profound was she said... And at this point, I have my MSW, and I'm like, "I'm a therapist. I'm gonna be a therapist. This is my passion." So I'm talking to her about all these terms, and she's like, "Yeah, don't you guys like read that book, The Body Keeps the Score, and don't you guys understand that you hold trauma in your body?" And I was like, "Yes. Actually, I do know that." And she's like, "Well, where do you think you hold it?" And I said, "Well, I don't know. Like my whole body?" She said, "In your pelvic floor." Mind blown, right? So what she did is in her assessment, she found that... And she likened it to bicep curls. She said, "Your vaginal walls have to go up and down like you would do a bicep for you to orgasm." And she said, "Yours are so tight that they can't loosen. They can't physically make that sensation happen. They can't have that... They won't.   1:02:15.0 Sarah: So we did some exercises and I had to relearn how to do certain things. I had to essentially learn how to orgasm, and that was the beginning of happiness. That was the beginning of the fairy tale, for me, it was. [chuckle] Learning, becoming one with my body, and when I say one with my body, for anyone who has a period, who has a uterus, who has a pelvic floor, that includes you man, understand what's going on with your pelvic floor. That is where you're holding your stress, where you're holding your trauma. And since then, I have been able to identify when I suck in, and I know I do it. When I am triggered or when I'm stressed, or if I'm uncomfortable or if I'm feeling vulnerable, I can suck in my muscles, and I feel it. It's like this, "Please don't look at me," and I'm sucking in. It's totally this trauma-fear response, and I can now push myself back out and to relax, and I have control of what's going on with me. And that's the first time that's ever happened. I was able to orgasm. We have a great sex life now. We've had... Since had a baby and that didn't break me. I thought that was gonna ruin me again. I wasn't afraid to have a child, and it helped bringing a child in. I used the same things that I learned in therapy, and I survived.   1:03:46.8 DB: What a story. Not a story. What a life.   1:03:51.8 Sarah: Yeah.   [laughter]   1:03:52.7 DB: My goodness, that journey. So was it... What the doctor did, did that get you to successful orgasm? Was there other things that you did to help yourself along?   1:04:03.3 Sarah: Yeah, so basically, what she would do is she would use her fingers on muscles and release them so much like you would lengthen a muscle or much like going to the gym, right? You learn how to turn your muscles on and off when you're lifting weights, and she helped me learn how to do that, then I had to learn how to breathe again. 'Cause I was breathing incorrectly, like who even knows that you can breathe incorrectly. But I was breathing in, sucking in, doing... Any time I worked out, sucking in, holding that pelvic floor in tight. I learned to masturbate. That was a big one, right, learning my body.   1:04:42.2 DB: What is the purpose of that? Just to... Was it to help heal? Or what was the purpose of masturbating?   1:04:47.9 Sarah: The purpose of that was to, A, figure out how my body worked, right? How... What feels good? Now that I know my body can react to pleasure, what feels good? We started over, basically. So... And that came from... And this is the part that blows my mind is how we expect our young people or any people to walk into a marriage not knowing their body. So I learned my body with that. I've helped my husband learn my body, so his confidence grew, my confidence grew, our intimacy was connected. For the first time, it felt like it was a partnered experience.   1:05:23.8 DB: This is important for a lot of Latter-day saints to understand. And I'm not gonna sit here and say that masturbation should be a part of everyone's life. However, when we as... Especially Latter-day saints who are clinicians make a blanket statement, which I've seen recently in social media and some pretty well-respected therapists who are LDS, say that any therapist who encourages masturbation is not in line with their faith, right? It's... Yeah, thanks for the eye roll.   [laughter]   1:06:07.1 DB: It's... The potential damage of that message is destructive to say the least. I've seen so many women who have been abused, who have had similar life experiences, and they carry that on with them because that message was communicated to them, and they feel understanding their body is breaking some eternal covenant.   1:06:40.7 Sarah: Oh. Totally.   1:06:42.8 DB: It's the only thing we see... In the medical industry that seems to be the exception within our faith, is you go to a doctor and get some drugs to help you or you do... And I hate to use that analogy because I don't even think they're the same in a sense of risks or anything like that. But masturbation is a form

Amanda Elise Love shares her story about being ill as a child and working through trauma to triumph. Many can relate to her story and how to overcome trauma to feel better in all aspects of your life. Life is about nourishing, whether we are talking about our nutrition, environment, or relationships. The key to “feeling better” takes a holistic approach, small changes, and patience. To contact Dr. Sarah:  You can find me on Instagram and TikTok at: growingupwithdrsarah Visit my website or apply to be a guest on my podcast at growingupwithdrsarah.com and you can subscribe and listen to my podcast, 'Growing up with Dr. Sarah' on all podcast platforms!

Children's Book author, Jay Aedo, discusses how his writings adds a twist. His mission is to encourage young readers to take responsibility for their actions and not blame others, speak up for themselves, go from being the victim to being triumphant, and to create or change their own stories.  To contact Jay Aedo:  consiousbiblestories.com Instagram: conscious_bible_stories To contact Dr. Sarah:  You can find me on Instagram and TikTok at: growingupwithdrsarah Visit my website or apply to be a guest on my podcast at:  growingupwithdrsarah.com and you can subscribe and listen to my podcast, 'Growing up with Dr. Sarah' on all podcast platforms!

With Sarah Ansboury, Professional Pickleball Player & Director of Instruction at Palmetto Dunes Resort   Did you know that pickleball is the fastest-growing sport in America?! According to a recent report in USA Today, the United States has over five million pickleball players with the number of players increasing by almost 40% in just the last two years. So what is pickleball and why has it become so popular? It's been described as a combination of tennis, badminton, and ping pong. Its popularity is largely due to the fact that it's easy to learn and it appeals to all ages; with a third of the players over the age of 55. Although the state of Florida is often referred to as the “Pickleball Capital,” the truth is pickleball is actually more popular in locations like Seattle and Des Moines. In fact, the sport of pickleball originated on Bainbridge Island off the coast of Washington.   So what does it take to learn pickleball and begin playing? And where can you find courts and or lessons? Also, how did the name originate?! My guest today, Sarah Ansboury, is a professionally ranked pickleball player and instructor. In addition to being the Director of Pickleball Instruction at Palmetto Dunes Ocean Resort in Hilton Head and their touring professional player, Sarah is one of the top pickleball coaches in the world. We're going to learn from Sarah the answer to all these questions and more.     What You'll Hear on This Episode:   Where does the name pickleball come from?   What attracted Sarah to pickleball? Why do so many people get injured playing pickleball? Where can you find a pickleball instructor? Can you play pickleball on a tennis court? What is the most important advice for first-time players? Why has pickleball taken off in the last few years? What are the health benefits of pickleball? What is the future of pickleball? Is there a difference between indoor and outdoor pickleball? What is the single biggest frustration for new players?   Today's Takeaway: One of the reasons pickleball is popular is that it's a great way to socialize and meet people. Unlike many other leisure sporting activities, pickleball is very inclusive and social. The fun competitive nature of the sport and love of the game brings people together. You don't even need to show up with a partner! It's also a great way to stay fit or get in shape. Not only is it a good cardiovascular workout, but it can also improve balance, hand-eye coordination, and musical tone. Best of all, pickleball can be played both indoors and outdoors. Remember that staying active and spending time socializing with others is one of the best gifts we can give ourselves. So if you're looking for a fun new activity, why not give yourself the gift of a pickleball lesson? I'm Florine Mark and that's “Today's Takeaway.”   Quotes: “The great thing about pickleball is it's much easier to learn than most other racquet or paddle sports; especially as an adult.” — Sarah “You will meet someone from every walk of life.” — Sarah “It's getting people active, it's getting people social.” — Sarah “What I'm seeing so much is people's health just improving.” — Sarah   Brought to You By: Gardner White Furniture   Mentioned in This Episode: Sarah Ansboury's Website Sarah Ansboury on YouTube USA Pickleball Association

Wouldn't you agree that we all want to experience vibrant health, we all want to enjoy optimum health throughout our lives so that we can live our lives feeling full of energy, joy and joie de vivre?Sarah Rose, founder of Sarah Rose Holistic Health has a wealth of knowledge and experience on how to optimize physical and emotional well-being for you, your children, your loved ones and your family!Using Homeopathy and Reiki Sarah's focus is to create a bespoke and personalised health care package so that your body can heal, re-balance and rejuvenate resulting in the brilliant health you deserve.In this episode we discuss:-How homeopathy works, where it originates from and how it heals the body on a physical, emotional, spiritual and mental level.-Emotional intelligence and how the body communicates with us to get our attention in order to heal and restore balance.-Energy healing with Reiki and how this universal healing can help to release trauma and suppressed illness and emotions.-Physical symptoms that can be healed with both homeopathy and Reiki.-Natural facelifts and much more!How to get in touch with Sarah:You can connect with Sarah via her social media platforms and website. If you have any questions regarding how homeopathy and Reiki can heal your body she'll be happy to chat with you. Her work is international and you can book an appointment via her website.Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosehealing/FaceBook - https://www.facebook.com/sarahrosehealingWebsite - https://sarahannerose.co.uk/Where to find me:My Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/joanneoswelljones/For further information, to listen to other episodes via my website or on apple and Spotify podcasts https://www.joanneoswelljones.com/podcast

In this week's episode, I talk to Janene Liston about the P of Pricing. We talked about understanding how to price your offers. Janene is a highly trusted Pricing Consultant & Business Coach working with small businesses, startups and entrepreneurs across industries and the globe. She's also a Certified Pricing Professional who has been helping businesses improve pricing and profits for over 25 years. Her mission is to empower small businesses to be more sustainably profitable. Helping them know the value of their offer and more effectively implement their pricing. Ensuring they can confidently create, communicate and charge for the value they deliver. She's the host of Live with the Pricing Lady, the Podcast, a European public speaking Champion and a sought-after podcast and radio show guest. Watch out, her passion for pricing is contagious In this episode, you'll learn about understanding how to price your offers as well as... why pricing is so darn difficult Value Pricing and what the heck that means anyways Pricing psychology and when pricing gets icky How to apply fair and humane Pricing if we want a Triple Win: win for ourselves, win for our clients and win for the planet What confidence has to do with Pricing Discounting our prices And much more… Janene's Resources   Janene's Website Live with the Pricing Lady Check out Janene's free resources Connect with Janene on: Twitter Facebook YouTube LinkedIn Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] Hi, Janine. So happy to have this conversation with you. Yay. I'm so glad Malita introduced  Janene: the two of us. Yeah, me too. Great to  Janene: be  Sarah: here. So Janine, we're gonna be talking about pricing. It's kind of one of the, I'd say it's definitely a hard topic. You know how I have the humane marketing mandala and one of the pieces. Pricing. And so I always have in each kind of season, I [00:08:00] have one of the episodes about pricing and it's definitely one that a lot of people listen to cuz let's face it. It's not easy for us business owners. So I wanna ask you that question, why it's not easy, but maybe for before that tell us a little bit about you and how you got into pricing. They call you the pricing lady. So , so tell us how that all came about. Yeah. And yeah. Share a little bit of your  Janene: story with us. Okay. Yeah. So thank you. First of all, for having me here and welcome to all those of you who are watching and listening. I started my career. I'm a us born. I grew up in California. I started my career as a structural engineer and after a few years of practicing, I decided it wasn't what I wanted and ended up. Long story short ended up in product management. And the first thing that they handed me was a price list and it was 20 years old and without any commercial background or any real marketing knowhow, I knew [00:09:00] something was wrong with that and took it upon myself to not just redo my price list, but all the price lists and really. Gave everything a refresh. And that was really my first foray or my first experience in pricing. I can honestly say I had no real background in it. But I just knew that was wrong and that we needed to at least fix that. After it was with that company, I came to Switzerland in 2001. And when I decided to stay here, then I was hired as a global pricing manager for Siemens building technologies. And that was in 2004. And it's been all pricing all the time. Since then. So it's been nearly 20 years of just pricing. I worked in also in another industry in the agricultural industry agrichemicals and seeds industry for a while. And then in 2015 started my own business. And at the time I didn't know what to call myself. A coach, a consultant. And I, you know, I didn't really care for either of the terms. [00:10:00] And one day I was explaining to someone that when I would do projects in the corporate world, I was traveling all over the place and I'd walk into a new location with a new group of people to kick off a pricing project and, you know, walk up to them and start introducing myself. Hey, I'm Janine, I'm here for the pricing project and they go, yeah, I know you, you're the pricing lady. . And she goes, well, why didn't you call yourself that? I was like, I dunno, , let's do it. And so now I use it, I leaned into it fully and, and use it. And I, I find it very easy. It's a nice way to, first of all, introduce myself because it always puts a smile. Either people are confused at first if they're not native English speakers, they're like, what, what is that? But usually people smile. It's easy to remember. Right. And it sort of breaks the ice. So it, it, for me, it fits the bill of not saying I'm a coach or I'm a consultant. Which makes me a little bit more general, but it puts me in [00:11:00] a very different position. It's very clear what what I work with and what I do. Yeah. And it kind of has this  Sarah: familiar tone to it. It's not like, oh, I'm the pricing expert. You know, it's like, I'm the pricing lady. I, I know a thing or two  Janene: about pricing. it's approachable. That was one of the things that when I worked on my brand. I kept using the word fun. And of course the people who are with the branding experts were like, no, don't use the F word . Yeah. You know, cause a lot of people try to do that and it's very general. And I, I understood that. And then one day I realized it's it was about being approachable. Most small businesses may feel that, you know, consultants are out of reach for them. You know that it's not something that's really available to them. And I really wanted to work with small businesses and I am approachable. And you know, I work a little bit differently than you might with a typical consultant. Although I can work in that way. I, I prefer to work with people in, [00:12:00] in a more approachable way. End fun pricing can be fun. And I've actually had people tell me specifically that, you know, they really dreaded going to that workshop, that pricing workshop or course, or whatever it was, but it was actually really a lot of fun for them. And to me that was, you know, high praise .  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, totally. It's funny because for me as well, I think about pricing and, and it's like, you know, math. And numbers and that kind of stuff comes up and, and, and that's only a very small part of it. I'm sure. But we'll dig into that a little bit today. So, so yeah. Why don't we go back to my initial question that I thought, you know, why is it so hard for us to price? As small business owners to put a price on our services, what have you found out over the last 20 years? Janene: Great question, Sarah. So in my experience, there's really two reasons. [00:13:00] One is that nobody ever taught you how Hmm. Yeah, right. It's like, you know, if nobody ever taught you how to ride a bike, you'd figure it out possibly by yourself. But you'd have quite a bit of scrapes and bruises and bumps and maybe some mild trauma depending on, on, you know, how quickly you were able to do it. And it's the same with anything else. As well as with pricing, if nobody's ever showed you, how then, why would you expect for it to be just something that you would know how to do? And it would be easy and without any struggle, it's a little bit illogical to think that it would be nobody's ever pulled us aside in school and said, okay, Sarah, 30 years from now, when you start your own business, this is how you're gonna set the price of your, your packages. Right. They don't do that. And funnily enough, most people don't realize. While they do teach about pricing in MBAs. They don't actually teach you how to go about setting your prices. [00:14:00] Mm, they talk about, well, there's, you know, penetration strategies and skimming strategies and there's price elasticity. They use all these big fancy words, but they don't actually tell you how to go about setting those prices. So yeah, most people don't know how that's the first reason. Right.  Sarah: The second reason. Can I just go in there as sure. Because also what came to mind is for the MBAs probably cause I've worked at an international management school here in Loza and they have a big MBA program. And so I think when they teach about pricing, they look at big companies. They don't necessarily look at the small business owner and the small entrepreneur as an example. Right. And that, I think also probably leads to the, I don't know what you're gonna say for the second reason, but I have a feeling it has to do more with the, the personal aspect as well.  Janene: Yes, it does. Mm-hmm it does you're right. I would say those programs are geared towards more corporates. Yeah. Uh, [00:15:00] Yet again I would say. A lot of corporates are not very good at setting and managing their prices either. Mm. Yeah. I mean, even the corporates are not good at it. How are we gonna figure it? They do. They do struggle with it. They struggle with different aspects of it. Mm-hmm but if you think about in the larger company, who's usually responsible for setting the prices. A lot of times it's the product manager, right. And the product manager's background is not a marketing one. Right. They're an engineer or they're an agronomist or they're a scientist, you know, or a chemist. Right? They have no commercial background. No. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. So it it's, it's. It's a very important aspect and a larger company. A lot of people are responsible for it. Of course, in a smaller company, you gotta wear all the hats, the finance hat and the marking hat and the sales hat, so on and so forth. And that comes to, like you said, the second aspect of it, which is very personal and it has to do with [00:16:00] your core beliefs around money, success and worthiness mm-hmm . Yeah. And that is, you know, that is really something. Comes in full force for most small business owners because it becomes it shouldn't. But for many people it feels like that price that they're setting is somehow a reflection of them personally. Right. And being able to make. You know that disconnect, you know, you're not, I, I used to have a program called speak, believe in charge your worth. And I always had a real problem with charge your worth being in that phrase. I couldn't find a better way to say it. So I stuck with it for a while, but because it's really, it's not your worth. It's the value of what your products are, services or. Bring the customer and yeah, being specific with your language in that way can be very important. Most of us have hangups with money, success, and worthiness that play a sabotage role in the [00:17:00] background of our decision. So I was just got off the call with a client who is Dutch. And I've had several clients who are Dutch and they always think that the price has to be the lowest price in the market. Mm. But that is, you know, something that comes from in large part, the Dutch culture from their families, from their upbringing that, you know, it always has to be the lowest price. Now, many of those clients are operating in Switzerland where people are. Generally willing to pay a bit more. They're not always looking for the cheapest solution and yet they're operating with this completely other mindset in a market that doesn't match that mindset. And it really makes it hard for them. To feel like they can charge more. So that's just one example. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we  Sarah: could do an hour just on  Janene: this topic alone. Right.  Sarah: And, and, and that's yeah, you work with clients on that. It's part of my marketing, like we're human program, because it, it is like, if you don't get. [00:18:00]  Janene: Like, if you don't do the deep work right there, mm-hmm , I, I honestly  Sarah: think you can never figure out the pricing and, and, and it's so interesting. You're bringing up different cultures so that matters, but then also, you know, how you grew up and, and, and all of these. Influences that obviously by the time we are ready to launch our business while we've been influenced by all of this. So we come with this baggage that is just like, yeah. And it's, it's so different from. You know, being an employee in a corporate where it has nothing to do with you, even if you are the one setting the price, it has nothing  Janene: to do with you where here it has everything to do with you, or you think it has everything to feel it. Yeah. Yeah. It's. Even, I mean, in the corporate world. So to me, there's two sides to pricing. There's, you know, the, the more concrete side, which is the numbers and the figures, which generally are [00:19:00] feel more concrete. And then there's the psychological side. I always tell people. Somewhat jokingly, but I actually mean in all seriousness is that pricing is all about the psychology baby. And you have to wiggle your eyebrows. When you say that , I don't think I'm asking. You're not doing it very well today. I'm out of practice because whether it's a small company or a big company, the psychology. Your personal psychology, the psychology of your organization. And this I've seen in large companies, the sales team thinks that price is the most important factor. From the customer's perspective. I will tell you nine times outta 10, when we did the research, we found it was maybe in the top five, usually within the top 10 mm-hmm . But if your sales team thinks it's number one, That is going to impact how they behave when they're having sales discussions with your customers. Yeah, so it, it's not just a small business [00:20:00] thing. It, it happens in both sides. And when it comes to psychology, you have the psychology internal to your business for a small business, your psychology usually and not of your employees, but then you also have the external psychology towards the market, towards the customer. So it has many different facets to.  Sarah: Yeah, I wanna talk about, so we addressed the, you know, the internal psychology a little bit, because it has to do with, you know, who you are, what you believe, whether you believe that you are worthy net, whether you ever sell anything anymore or not. Right. You have  Janene: to really, truly believe that you're worthy without ever  Sarah: getting a client again. right. And then there's the external psychology. And, and I talk about that also in my marketing, like we're human book, that's kind of. Cheeky psychology that we're taught in, in marketing and kind of this online sales world. Mm-hmm so I'm really curious to, to hear more about that and your points of view, and what's true. [00:21:00] What's not, and mm-hmm and how to deal with it when we want to. You know, apply this humane approach to running a business with ethics and not cheat people into buying your stuff just by using some kind of psychology hack mm-hmm . So talk to us about that.  Janene: Okay. Before I get into that, let me just make one more comment. So one of the things that I've learned in having my own business is I thought this was a career development journey. Mm. When in fact it's been a perfect per a personal development journey from day minus two until the day I stop, it will continue to be a personal development journey. And that's also one of the reasons that this personal psychology. Placed it such a big role. So you're constantly being pushed outside of your comfort zone. Pricing is certainly one of those areas. The value of what you offer is certainly one of those areas and, and being able to have the [00:22:00] strength and the courage. To step outside your comfort zone to tackle these things is what's going to enable you to keep pushing forward in your business and be there to deliver the great things that you wanna deliver to your clients. I truly believe that. And I'm sure that people told me that before I started. I'm sure I did not understand it. I know, but it is 100%. My reality. Yeah, yeah, yeah,  Sarah: yeah. That's a good preface for, for what's coming up next.  Janene: okay. So now you wanted to talk about the psychology. So the external psychology, there are a lot of things. A lot of studies out there. A lot of tricks of the trade, if you will. I'm not sure I like that terminology. But when it comes to, you know, having a humane business and I, I I'm, I'm not going to say that using them is inhumane or humane. I'm not making any judgment. What I really [00:23:00] feel is that as a business owner, you should understand the psychology side of it because. Even if you're not using it actively, you wanna make sure that accidentally you're not doing things that are hurting your business. . Yeah. And, and that's very possible to do. For example, I had a client a few weeks ago, we had CR gone through and created her price list. And she was getting her website ready and she had two offers, one for a very high priced. Group high net worth individuals. And the second offer, there were two completely different offers, but one was targeted towards young adults who were just starting out in their careers. Mm-hmm . And so she had one offer on one webpage and the other offer on another, and then she had a pricing page and she had the prices for both offers side by side mm-hmm which from a psychology perspective [00:24:00] meant that all the good work we had done was actually now working against her because it felt like cuz the prices were on the same page. Like they were competing with each other mm-hmm whereas if she just removed the pricing page and put the price for the young adult offer here and the price for the high net worth individuals here, that comparison would not be made in the same way. That's what I mean by you have to understand, you know, These things are communicating so that you can make sure you're not doing things in a way that is actually hurting your business or your customer's experience. Mm. Yeah. Now one of the things you and I had spoken about was the endings of prices. Right? Right. You might have that conversation. yeah. Should it be 95 or 97 or 99 or zero? So I can't answer that question. For everybody that is going to be a very individual decision in each business. Here's what I can tell you. And then you can decide for [00:25:00] yourselves what is going to be best suited for your company prices that end in zero, tend to be associated with more luxury goods. Prices. It ends in nines and sevens and fives tend to be associated, especially when they put, you know, 95 cents. Yeah. Or 99 cents at the end, those tend to be associated with more. Companies that are playing towards the low price leader side of things. How, how do I know this? If you go into Louis Viton you will never see 1,999 and 99 cents, right? You just won't see it. No, yeah. You'll see. 2000, you'll see, 2,500, 8,000, right. It's just, and, and the prices will be tiny on a little teeny, tiny price tech. Yeah, you go to Miro or you go to Kmart or somewhere like that. They have big price tags with great big [00:26:00] prices on them. And there's 90 nines and 90 fives at the bottom. Right. So you have to, you know, what sort of, you know, how does this align with the value or with your purpose or brand? What's gonna make more sense for you. Yeah. And, and, and,  Sarah: and how is it gonna resonate with your clients? You know, who are you trying to attract? If you have a big ticket and, you know, service and you price it with the 99 cents at the end, they probably  Janene: won't like it well, it depends. And it also depends. So here's another example. If you're say you're a consultant, you're offering projects. If you offer a price of 25,000 versus 24,495, right then from the customer's perspective, 25,000 looks like a number that you kind of just pulled outta your back pocket. Whereas [00:27:00] 24,495 looks like a number that you've actually spent some time considering. does that make one better than the other? You have to be the judge about yeah. What per what you want or how you want to be perceived by your customers. What's going to make more sense right now, if you're in an, in an industry or in a part of the world where you're gonna be doing a lot of negotiation, then 25,000, maybe. Just the easiest place to start. Right. But if you're looking not to do a whole lot of negotiation, you may start with a number that's more precise because then it reflects that that number is precise. Right.  Sarah: And if you're in Morocco, because I just came back from two weeks in Morocco I learned that you, you know, negotiate the price down to 30% of. They tell you, and then you go back up. So yeah, that's something that we're completely not used to doing the whole bargaining. Right. So I don't recommend that. no, no. And  Janene: I think you are, you're [00:28:00] absolutely right. Think about who you're targeting, what they expect, what works exposed for you now, the 90 nines and the 90 sevens. You know, those work with target groups that are more price sensitive. Yeah. They do, I mean, studies have shown time and again, that 1499 people see the 14, they don't think 15. Yeah. So if they were to see 15 and 1499 next to each other, they would perceive the 1 14 99 as being 14. Now that doesn't mean you have to use that in your business. You need to do what's right for you and for your clients. So understand why those things are things, if you will and then decide, okay. What feels right for my business and for my audience and lead with that, because that's most important to me is that you believe in the number that you use. Yeah.  Sarah: I think that permission piece is so important [00:29:00] because yeah. I've had people ask me, so do I need to do the 2 97? Can I not just, you know, say 300 just because everybody else is doing it. And I'm like, no, you just like, you it's like, whatever you feel is right. And because when you priced the way you feel is right. then if you've done your, you know, intense client work and know who your client is, well, then they will also resonate with that more than the 2 97. Janene: So, and if you're really, really not sure, create two landing pages, change one to have a price of 2 97, 1 to have a price of 300 and AB test. Yeah. Yeah. See what works better. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, okay. You'll make $3 or three Franks, less on each sale for the 2 97, depending on how on your margins. That could be that could make a difference or not, hopefully not. You know, but that's test it out. Yeah. Who says you can't. No  Sarah: one, I have a [00:30:00] follow up question on the comparison because that's another example that I share in the book and we see a lot where we have one same offer mm-hmm , but we have three different prices, you know, like one is the V I P offer the other one the sec, the one in the middle, and then the, the, the, the third one. And you know, where you use that anchor system. So talk to  Janene: us about that. Yeah. So anchoring is actually really important. I always tell PE, ask people what's the best way to sell a 500 Frank product, put it next to a 1500 Frank product. Right. And it's, it's, it's actually true. Yeah, you may never sell the 1500 Frank product, but if it's there, cause what, what you're doing. So the anchoring, the concept here is that people are going to want to compare it to something, right. And if you give them something else on the page to compare it to, they don't necessarily have to go elsewhere to look for a comparison. Right. Right. So that can be [00:31:00] really helpful. Now. Also not just the price, but what's included in each package. So you said the same offer, but there should be three different offers. Sorry. Yeah. Say same sales page, but same sales page, but three different offers. Yeah. What's included in those offers can steer behavior as well as the price. So let's say that, you know, the middle offer is the one that you think is the best for most of your clients. Right? Then you can set it up to kind of steer most of them towards that. Right. Or if you don't wanna use that, you need to make sure that you're not accidentally steering them in the wrong direction. Right. So based on what's included and the price levels, you can, you can. Help them navigate through the decision  Sarah: gently influence them or, or, yeah,  Janene: well navigate. Well, let's, let's face it. I mean, if I worked with a tool called [00:32:00] apathy and it is a tool that allows you to take an Excel. Like I, my pricing tools that I have on my website, they're Excel based. Mm-hmm it take, it takes the Excel tool and makes it into a web-based tool. Okay. So just converse it mm-hmm magic. I love it. and when I wanted to use it, they had three offers. Right. And the first offer was you have access for one, one month or three months. I forget which and then the next level up, it meant that you got a WordPress integration. And it was almost double the price. And I thought, well, okay, mm-hmm but where did press integration is really helpful? It can really solve a lot of problems. So I thought, okay, fine. And then the premium one came with phone support and I thought, well, I don't know anything about web based tools. I have no idea what I'm getting into and it was only 10 bucks more. So I think it went from like 30 to 60 to 70. Dollars. Okay. And the middle one was six months [00:33:00] and the last one was a one year access. Okay. So. My logic was okay. I want the WordPress integration. So I'm willing to pay double right and have six months access. Right. And then in the next step, my logic was, I want the phone support or the, the priority support. I didn't really care about the 12 months. I just, and it's only 10 bucks more. Okay. That's interesting. So they,  Sarah: they actually wanted you to get the, the third  Janene: offer. Right? Did, but that's where they put their focus. They absolutely did. Mm-hmm they absolutely did. And you know, if you start looking at, as you're buying things online, look, look at how they structure the offers and you'll see very clearly. Usually you can tell which one are the most profitable or at least which one they're steering you towards. Yeah. Wine lists at a gross at a grocery store at a restaurant mm-hmm . The most profitable will wine for most restaurants will be the second, most expensive. On like [00:34:00] buy the glass Uhhuh glass. Why? Well, they know that most people don't know a lot about wine mm-hmm so they're trying to, you know, make a good choice, but they don't wanna buy the, they don't wanna embarrass themselves by no, they're not gonna buy the cheapest and they're not gonna buy the most expensive mm-hmm so they buy the second most expensive,  Sarah: right. yeah. Yeah. And that's kind of the traditional thing. So I was surprised that with this tool, They actually wanted you to get the, you know, the highest one, even though it wasn't that much higher, because usually you see the third offer to be some kind of V I P you know, 10 times the middle of it depends. So it was interesting to, yeah, I've never  Janene: seen it really depends. So sometimes. You're right. Sometimes they use the, the premium offer as the main anchor. Yeah. Which means they make it so high price to make everything look cheaper. Yeah. But other times it's actually the it's better for ACY. It was better to have someone in there [00:35:00] for full year mm-hmm Because they had just started and they were working out some of the kinks right. In this web-based con web-based tool converter, if you will, for lack of a better phrase. And so, and to have me on the phone with them, so actually, Benefit more to have people all the way over there. Yeah. Yeah. That feels like  Sarah: an honest offer. You know, it feels like, okay, I see what you're doing, but it's a win-win situation and, and yeah. You know, that's what we want. So I'm gonna share with you an example of one of my programs. So the, the marketing, like we're human program, I ran it in January and I had those three offers. The first one was. Online only mm-hmm I think they went for 500 bucks and then the group program 950 mm-hmm cause I run it live only twice per year  Janene: mm-hmm  Sarah: and then the V I P program for 4,800 mm-hmm where they also got coaching besides the [00:36:00] group program. And so I thought like, you know, the, the cur the common advices, just put that V I P offer on there. You might sell one, but you might not. And to my surprise, I actually sold three and only four group programs. So I was like, what's going on here? Like how, yeah. Can you share some insights of what might have been happening there? Did I not put enough value maybe or perceived value in the group offer? What do you think  Janene: was happening? Yeah, there's a lot of things that could be going on there. The price difference between 509 50 is not very big. Did you get anybody at the 500 or was it no, not for this one. Exactly. So you made, you made the barrier very low for them to go to the middle package. Okay. Yeah,  Sarah: so which I wanted, I wanted to, which was good,  Track 3: right?  Janene: Yeah. Yeah. Which is, which is good. I wanted,  Sarah: You know, [00:37:00] probably, I mean, it was great that I had the three V I P I would've wanted more for the  Janene: middle one for the middle, right? Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. I think, I think here it's, it's just a matter of people wanting that one to one support. Yeah. So the big difference between the two packages, the middle and the top was getting your one to one time. Right. Is that correct? Am I correct in that?  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. That's the difference. Yeah. Between the two. So,  Janene: And I think for, you know, for some things, you know, I, I I've had group programs as well and I, I will continue to do but I've found most of my clients prefer to work one on one. Because , this is gonna sound funny when I say it, you know, but most people will assume that. Their pricing is special. Right. And that it has to be done in a special way. It's unique and, yeah. Right. And, and yes, every business is unique. Don't get me wrong. I use the same [00:38:00] process with everyone, but as we go through that process, different. Different businesses will require we focus on different areas with different levels of intensity. Right? Right. So it's, it's same but different. And I would guess that, you know, the, the people who went for your, your V IP package, it was really because they wanted that one to one. FaceTime with you. Yeah. And they didn't think that the group would give them what they needed.  Sarah: Yeah. It's interesting. You get so much insights from, you know, just this example and, and, and then you're like, oh, what does that mean for me? Do I want to lower the V I P do I want to increase it? Because I actually want more people in the, in the group or, yeah. How do I play with that? And it's yeah. Yeah. It's just  Janene: so, I mean, I think, I think in your case you could play. Increasing the one to one package mm-hmm , but may, maybe also bringing your, your group program over a thousand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It'll, [00:39:00] it'll be interesting how  Sarah: it plays out for the next. Yeah. I thought I'd bring it up and, you know, because these, yeah. These examples are, are real and we're like, how do we do this? And it's basically just like, well, you, you try and, and then you figure out, okay, this work, that didn't work. How do I improve it now? Right. But obviously  Janene: it could also be that. I mean, cuz they are. They are, I would guess the same, but different , which is so, so specific Janine in that, you know, one is a group, two of them are group program, and one is individual. So having it in this tiered structure, you know, it's. If you had say a VIP option, that was part of the group, it was really a VIP experience of the group, as opposed to a straight up one to one package, then you might see different results. Right, right. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. Again, what, what this tells me that is that pricing.[00:40:00]  It's not just about a number that you put on the thing it's also  Janene: about your offering, right? Offering pricing,  Sarah: same, same thing. Really. It's like, well, how much value are you going to put into that price? And, and I think that's kind of what went wrong the last few years. And that's why I, I kind of attack some of these pricing strategies where they use these psychology hacks to, you know, sell a program for a hundred thousand and that, and the actual value. It's just very questionable often. And, and so that's why, what we need to understand is like, well, what is the value that people actually get out  Janene: from that offer? Right. Well, I guess, you know, if, if the business is, you know, half a million dollar business and they're looking to grow to be a million dollar business than investing a hundred thousand dollars to grow your business to a million is, is a reasonable. Investment to expect to make, right? Yeah, of course. But if you're a [00:41:00] $80,000 business and you are investing a hundred thousand to try and get to  Sarah: 200,000, then you  Janene: know, it's, you can, the pace be made probably would most people buy into it? Probably not. Right? Yeah. So it's, it's all contextual and this is why. I cannot emphasize enough when it comes to pricing. You always, always, always have to go back to who are you targeting? Mm. Yeah, because if you're targeting businesses that are $80,000 businesses looking to get to 200, then a hundred thousand dollars offer or Frank offer is probably. Suitable for that target group. Yeah. That's true. And you can really make life difficult for you if you try to create, if you create an offer and then try to force that offer on the wrong target group, right? Yeah. And let's face it. Most businesses start with, this is what I offer. Now. Let me figure out who I [00:42:00] can sell it to . Yeah. As opposed to starting with, I wanna do something for this group of people, with what I have, let me figure out how I can best serve. Sarah: So it feels like there's like two big problems. Either you price too low because you have all this baggage or you grew up in a culture where the lowest price is the best idea or you price too high to the wrong target audience. And I'm sure there's a ton, tons of other problems, but these are kind of the two that stand out from our conversation. Janene: Would you agree with that? Well, yeah. I mean, it's much, if you. Regardless of whether or not, you know what you're no, let me, let me think about how I wanna say this. So. Probability that you will over under price is relatively high. The more you understand about pricing, the more you can reduce that likelihood, right? Yeah. Of being under overpriced doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but even, even if, and here's another interesting part of the [00:43:00] psychology. So even if your price is a little bit high, Yeah. If you're really good at communicating the value, you'll sell it anyhow. Yeah. No. Now you don't want it to be icky sales, but let's say I, you always use this example. So let me just use it again. There are two lemonade stands. You're walking down the street, you run across two lemonade stands. One says lemonade, 25 cents. The other says lemonade, 50 cents. Which one do you buy? okay. In most parts of the world, you might buy one from each kid. If they're two cute little kids selling lemonade, and just give the other one, a 25 cent tip, call it a day. But what if the one that is 50 cents also says clean water included? Hmm. Yeah. And that's the marketing  Sarah: piece. ,  Janene: that's the pricing psychology piece from the communication standpoint. Yeah. That child is communicating the value of what they deliver better. Now it may be that they are brother and sister [00:44:00] and mom is in the kitchen making the lemonade, but because one of them communicated the value differently. People are more willing to pay the 50 cents. Right. And let's say you're in a country where clean water isn't assumed. Then they have an even bigger advantage. So the better that you can communicate the value of your offer. To some degree, not big, not on a big scale, but to some degree, the more wiggle room you have in terms of, you know, O overpricing let's say yeah. Over underpricing. And that's exactly  Sarah: why. And what we said at the beginning, it's not just about the, the number. In fact, the number you can change it, however you want almost with, with boundaries, but it's about communicating that value. That's absolutely so key.  Janene: And I was saying most people struggle. To really understand. I see this in my clients all the time. This is where they struggle the most. When we get to the value [00:45:00] piece, consistently, I mean, there are struggles in different areas, but there's something about that. That attaching a number. Cuz when we do the value work, we don't just talk about benefits. Benefits are not value. It's what people get from those benefits that creates value. And you need to be able to understand the benefits so that you can understand how those create value and then quantify that value mm-hmm . And when it comes to quantifying value and know, it makes people feel really uncomfortable. but it's hard because  Sarah: again, your worth, your worst kind of gets  Janene: in there. It's like, really? Yeah. And they're like, well, what if you know, what if. I can't guarantee it. I'm like, I'm not asking you to guarantee it. I'm asking you to tell a story about the value that people can get. Mm-hmm you can choose to share that with clients or not. It's up to you, but if you don't understand what it is, [00:46:00] then how can you believe in any price that you put out there? Yeah. Yeah. You can't. Mm. And if you don't this ,  Sarah: I, I look at the hour and I'm like, oh no, we have to wrap up. But I'm so glad we brought up the, the value pricing. Cause that was kind of in the questions I, I had prepared and we just kind of jumped over it. But the, yeah, this idea of pricing for value and not like your Dutch  Janene: client just for time  Sarah: exchanged or, you know, let me get the cheapest offer out there so that I get the most clients. It is so important and I think it cannot be repeated enough and, and you're right. It's, it's difficult. I mean, it's,  Janene: you have to believe in the value that you bring. Yeah. Yeah. And if you don't look at it and, and put number to it, Then you'll really struggle to believe in it. And like I said, if you don't, they won't there's always a few gem clients out there who believe in spite that you [00:47:00] don't , but those, you know, those are, are often few and far between and the best thing for you and for your clients is that you understand and believe in the value that you bring. Sarah: Ah, this has been so good. Thanks so much, Janine. This you're welcome has been really valuable. I wish we could. Maybe we will do a second round round. hard to, yeah. But do you share with our listeners where they can find out more about you and how you work with clients and, and all of that? Yeah.  Janene: I encourage people to head on over to the pricing lady.com. Very easy to remember. I have a podcast you'll find some great Information on there as well and regular guests and also solo cast episodes, which are a little bit more instructional. And of course, if you'd like to book a call, you can find that there as well.  Sarah: Wonderful. And I have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this  Janene: week? This one? Yep. I'm grateful for opportunities like this. I [00:48:00] really enjoy sharing this topic with people and, and helping people to think differently about it so that they can gain momentum towards having a more sustainably profitable business. So thank you very much, Sarah. Thanks for everyone for listening. Thank  Sarah: you, Janine. Take  Janene: care.[00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00] [00:52:00] 

Do you feel like you're not actually suited for the role you are trying to fill in your life? That role might not be the ideal one for you! In this week's #straightfromsarah episode, FRIED Burnout Coach Sarah Vosen talks about ways to get to know yourself better and how to apply what you learn to help lead a more fulfilling and more burnout-proof life.  When Sarah realized she wasn't thriving in her chosen profession, she could not understand why at first. However, once she started taking some personality quizzes and really looking seriously at the results, it became very clear that the type of person she was and the type of career she had chosen were not perfectly compatible. She'd struggled her entire life trying to fit in and be like everyone else, but her personality types showed that she was unique and one of the rarer types of people on the planet. When we learn more about ourselves, we can make sure we are spending our time and energy appropriately instead of trying to fill roles we were never meant to fill.  Tune into this week's #straightfromsarah episode to learn more about different personality quizzes and why it is important that your personality type be compatible with your lifestyle and career choices.  Quotes • “I was not meant to be doing life like most people, but I had been pushing myself as hard as I could to keep up and work hard like the masses. And when I sat down and looked at all of these quiz results and descriptions, and looked at what truly resonated for me, I realized that I am not like most. My personality traits make me one of the less common members of humanity. I am on the fringe. No wonder I don't tend to want to do or buy the same things as most nor can I handle the same kind of schedule.” (4:25-4:54 | Sarah) • “I couldn't see as many patients as my other acupuncturist and massage therapist friends. I found out later that those friends were indeed a different type than I am. They are generators or manifesting generators, which means that they are folks that are wired for getting more work done. I was trying to be someone I wasn't, and it felt terrible.” (5:22-5:38 | Sarah) • “In order to recover from burnout I needed to accept my role, the one that utilizes my strengths. The one that I'm wired for. The one that my constitution is suited for.” (6:12-6:22 | Sarah) • “The more we know ourselves, we gain clarity around what to take on and how to spend our time and energy. This helps us say no to what isn't ours and let the rest go. This is crucial in burnout recovery.” (7:53-8:06 | Sarah) • “You don't have to be everything to everyone. You just have to be you. And do the role that you're already good at. If that sounds relieving to you, please give yourself permission to let go of offering everything that isn't yours.” (10:21-10:35 | Sarah) Links  Our quiz: https://quiz.tryinteract.com/#/61d4455460a67b0018a4c902 Sarah: https://caitdonovan.as.me/sarah-connect Cait: https://caitdonovan.as.me/free Links to personality quizzes: Myers-Briggs: https://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test Enneagram: https://personalitypath.com/free-enneagram-personality-test/ Chinese 5 Elements: https://learnthefiveelements.com/5-elements-quiz/ Human Design: https://www.jovianarchive.com/get_your_chart Ayurvedic Dosha: https://kripalu.org/content/whats-your-dosha Highly Sensitivity: https://hsperson.com/test/highly-sensitive-test/ Astrological Sign: https://chart.chaninicholas.com XOXO, C If you know that it's time to actually DO something about the burnout cycle you've been in for too long - book your free consult today: bit.ly/callcait https://friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/quiz Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How do you manage your wild, creative soul?  Sharon Gless is a Golden Globe and Emmy award winning actress on today's episode to tell her story.  Best known for her leading role in the television series Cagney & Lacey, Sharon shares how she defied all odds and found success in the entertainment industry. She gives you her secrets to creating the life of your dreams and teaches you how to live as your full, authentic self.  Artists might feel deeply, but that soul can be tamed.  Key Topics/Takeaways: Why it took Sharon so long to acknowledge that she wanted to be an actress. How Sharon manages criticism and being in the public eye. Sharon's favorite roles and characters. Gaining self-worth. Being introverted in an extroverted industry. Reincarnation and living a spiritual existence. Where to Find the Guest: SharonGless.com @sharonglessreal Book: Apparently There Were Complaints Memorable Quotes: “There is magic in the telling.” (9:15, Sharon) “This podcast is about how we live a fulfilling, happy, satisfying life. And I think a big part of that is about being honest with what our dreams are and following those inner desires.” (14:00, Dr. Sarah) “We don't have to know what it's going to look like, but we need to imagine what it's going to feel like if we got what we wanted.” (14:50, Sharon) “The creative wild nature can make beautiful art or it can completely self-destruct a person.” (17:37, Dr. Sarah) “It's important to know that we're all human and we're not meant to be perfect.” (32:34, Dr. Sarah) “You have to really imagine what it feels like to have what you want.” (41:32, Sharon) Join the Are You Satisfied? Patreon Community: https://bit.ly/AreYouSatisfiedPatreon

You're listening to From the Desk of Alicia Kennedy, a food and culture podcast. I'm Alicia Kennedy, a food writer based in San Juan, Puerto Rico. Every week on Wednesdays, I'll be talking to different people in food and culture, about their lives, careers and how it all fits together and where food comes in.Today, I'm talking to Sarah Lohman, a food historian, and the author of Eight Flavors: The Untold Story of American Cuisine. We discussed how she went from art school to historic cooking, making a career as a blogger, and how she defines American for the purposes of her work. Alicia: Hi, Sarah. Thank you so much for being here. Sarah: Well, hello, Alicia. Good morning. [Laughter.] I feel we’re both still a little just rolled out of bed. Yeah, I did put a face on for you.Alicia: Thank you, I put a face on as well. I was completely ready to have this conversation and was sitting at my laptop at like 10:50. Like, ‘All right.’ And then at 11:01, I looked up and was like, ‘No!’ [Laughter.]Sarah: It's fine. I'm just here with my tea. Just getting a start on the day. We're just gonna have a lovely chat, as per usual.Alicia: Well, can you tell me about where you grew up and what you ate?Sarah: Sure. So I grew up in Hinckley, Ohio, which is a rural town about, oh, like 30 miles south of Cleveland. So Northeast Ohio. So I actually grew up in the house that my dad lived in from a teenager onwards. My grandmother gave it to my mom and dad the year that I was born. And so, that was how my family was able to have a little bit of property. And when I was growing up there, it was really pretty rural. I didn't have any really close neighbors, and we had a couple acres of our own. As far as what I ate, some of it was regional and some of it was at—the crap that we got fed in the ’80s and 90s that I look back on, and it's just totally remarkable. Do you remember things like Squeeze-its and Gushers? And I'm like, ‘I guess we just didn't know better back then.’ But those were real foods that we ate. And my mom was an exceptional cook. But it was very Midwestern. We did do some lasagna. We did do some chili, nothing particularly spicy. And then, kind of the regional cuisine in Northeast Ohio is very Eastern European. So there was also a lot of pierogi action. There would be some chicken paprikash, some beef stroganoff, those kinds of things. I think the most sort of resonant experience I had with food growing up is that my mom was an award-winning baker. So basically, as soon as I could stand, I was baking with her. Iit's funny, I didn't realize that baking was hard until food reality TV started coming out. All the chefs were like, ‘Oh, no, I don't bake, I don't bake.’ So it was really valuable to me to get that experience first and do the ‘harder side of cooking things.’And then as I got a little bit older, my parents both went to work when my brother went to college. And so, it was sort of my job to come home from school and start dinner. And so, that was the moment that I started to learn how to cook.Alicia: Wow. And so yeah, that's a really interesting mix of things. Because people associate, I think, the Gushers side of ’90s youths with other new processed foods, I guess. But it seems you had a real mix of home cooking and eating the—Sarah: Oh, definitely.I also feel many—at least in my world growing up, many families households are—I think a lot of families’ households are a blend. I think that we do a lot of culture and class shaming by saying, ‘Oh, you only go to McDonald's, blah, blah, blah.’ I mean, we can go into all of that, too. Yeah, of course, my family went to McDonald's, because how else you get a 6-year-old to shut up? McDonald's. And they wanted you there. And we’d go play on the playground afterwards, too. But yeah, my mom also cooked meals from scratch for me, because this was still the era where some people had the luxury of having a parent at home full time, which I feel is really hard for someone who would even, who would choose to want that and choose to want to spend time with that child. I feel economically, that's becoming less and less available. So my mom got to raise us up until I was in eighth grade, when she went back to work. And so, that allowed her the access and the ability and the time to be able to make meals from scratch as well. And kind of interestingly, her mom didn't really cook very much. Her mom did a lot with sort of processed food. But then, I don't know, my mom moved out to the country and just started baking pies and making stew from scratch. Something came alive inside her. And to this day, she's still an incredible cook and incredible baker. There's no stopping her from doing an all-out Thanksgiving or Christmas meal, even if it's just going to be the three of us eating it. And she’ll the table too. I think that’s her favorite part.Alicia: Aww. That's really great. And I talk so much, I think, about—in writing and in interviews and stuff—it's like, how do people eat differently? And it's always that answer is, you give them the time and you give them the access. And that's such an important thing to talk about, I think, in terms of our food upbringings.Sarah: Absolutely. And I feel that the time issue is one that I especially get very irritated with. I remember seeing a video a couple years ago with two very famous male food writers that are making a roast chicken with roasted vegetables. And they're like, ‘This only cost $14.’ And ‘Oh, isn't this so hard to do? People think this is so hard.’ And I'm like, ‘A*****e, you have no idea. You have no idea what it's like to be raising two jobs. You have no idea what it's like to be a single parent, and you have no idea the real choices that people are making. And you're just like, ‘Oh, just people hate making chicken. They're so stupid.’ It just pisses me off.And then of course, the caloric content when you're like, ‘Man, I'm hungry. I've got all these kids to feed.’ Of course, you’re going to pick fast food as opposed to making a roast chicken with roast vegetables, which I had for lunch. I'm starving two hours later. It's just such a lack of connection to everyday people. But also, I think in my case, it was just the ’90s and you bought your kids Gushers and Fruit by the Foot. And that's just kind of what you did.Alicia: Right? You fell in love with historical food while working at a living history museum as a teenager and went to art school. I wanted to ask, why did you go to art school?Sarah: Well, I didn't really think history was my career. I ended up at that job because my mom worked there. And so when I turned 16, she was like, ‘You're too old to stay at home all summer. You’ve got to get a job.’ And I was like, ‘Ok, well, I'll apply at Hardee's and work with my friends.’ And she was like, ‘No, you're coming to work for me.’ She was a manager there. So I got the job. And I was, didn't want to. I wanted to go be with my friends and not do this super-nerdy thing of working in a museum in costume. And it ended up obviously changing my life. Mom was right. Because the people that I worked with were such just exceptional, passionate individuals. And for me, I just wasn't in history in high school because you're not really learning about the lives of people. You're memorizing dates, and it's always very war-focused as opposed to any of the life that people led in between, right? You're learning about sort of governments and dates that this happened, duh-duh-duh. There's nothing there that makes you think that history is populated with human beings. Yeah, but museums, like the one I worked at, or probably more famously people know Plymouth Plantation or Colonial Williamsburg, they are focusing on social history. So day-to-day life. And then in the house there that I worked in with my ‘family,’ there was a wood-burning cast-iron stove. And so, that's when I just loved working with the fire and with the stove, with this really kind of simple piece of equipment. And we were also working from historical books, too. I started to get the sense of what that era in history tasted like, and being able to read old recipes like that. But I went to art school because I liked art. And that's what I sort of excelled out when I was in high school. And I was lucky that there was a really, really excellent art school near, far enough away from home that I could move but close enough that I wasn't too scary. So the Cleveland Institute of Art. I didn't know exactly what I was going to do. But that was my plan. And then interestingly, it sort of led me back to food history. I majored in a digital arts major with a fine arts minor in food and—not food, in photo and video, which obviously I do a lot of food photography now. And it was a five year program. So I had to do a thesis project. And so I ended up doing an installation of what today would call a pop up restaurant that served colonial-era food for a contemporary audience. So although after that I sort of dropped it for a couple years ‘cause I was sick of it, it clearly was this combination that I had. I realized I had this sort of unique perspective, because of my—already for a couple years, had worked in this very strange work environment. And that I'd had this background in food and cooking at home, and it just kind of came together as part of this really great program that I was in.Alicia: How has that art education influenced your career and food?Sarah: Hugely.It's funny because when people ask me ‘what I did in college,’ and I say that, ‘I went to art school,’ go like, ‘Oh, you’re really using the degree,’ which is just what people love to say to people who went to art students anyway, which I think is b******t. But I mean, in a very practical way, it has helped me immensely in that as part of my degree I received training in terms of working with freelancers. Working with clients, I should say. So being able to run my own business in a certain—just learning things, invoicing. That was all part of what I was learning. So when I wanted to quit my full-time job and start working for myself, that was much less intimidating. And I designed and launched my own website, because I knew both graphic design and some basic HTML when I first started blogging. Obviously, photography is a huge part of being in the foodie world. Whether you're blogging, or now, of course, a lot more on Instagram, or writing for a commission, you're often required to provide your own photographs. So my photography skills have been hugely helpful. And when I'm sort of working with people who want to get into food writing more, that is often one of the hard, most difficult hurdles, that food writing and food photography are often sort of intertjoined. You're building that Instagram audience. So I'm feel very, very, very lucky to have that background too. But I think in a bigger way, that sort of community and my professors that I work with, it, they encouraged you to think big. To think conceptually, to think of projects. And so, even formulating this idea of back when I got started: what if I did start a food blog and I looked at food history, and used to connect to the present, instead of doing all even the concept of doing this thing that I didn't really have any other—I didn't have a mentor at that point. I didn't have a concept of what my career could look like. Even just thinking about it and getting started on it, I think came from the education that I got in college, too.Alicia: Right.And you moved to New York, where that was—where you kind of got started doing this sort of work. Why was New York the place for that, at that time?Sarah: I mean, I think a couple things came together. I mean, I mentioned to you earlier, too, that really professor—I was in my fifth year, and I'm doing this restaurant. And it’s all very crazy. And he was the one that was kind of like, ‘You need to go to New York. There just isn't space for what you're doing here right now.’I went to school in Cleveland as well. And especially in 2005, when I was graduating, Cleveland wasn't doing great. People were already talking a lot about brain drain and college graduates leaving the Midwest and going to the coasts. It sounds harsh to say there wasn't the opportunity there. Because in a way, I did move back to Cleveland for a couple years, from 2018 to 2021. And it was because there were really exciting things happening here. And actually, because a lot of people had moved, went to the coast, got new ideas, and then brought them back to the Midwest. There's hugely positive things happening in Cleveland now. But I think to me, the tipping point was I'd never lived anywhere else in my life. I’d been on one trip out of the country at that point, which I felt very fortunate for. But my family just didn’t have the money to do a semester abroad or anything. I was working. I was paying for a lot of things myself. And I just thought it was really important to live somewhere else and get a different perspective on the world. And sort of a soft landing, I'd had a couple friends that moved out there the year before. And then really fortunately, I had a professor that said, ‘I'm from New York. I keep an apartment out there. If you ever need a place to stay for a month, just let me know,’ I was like, ‘Actually, thinking of moving there.’ So I had a place to stay when I first moved out there. And then I also then had roommates, and it just sort of happened. And then I ended up spending 13 years there. Alicia: Wow.And now that you've left after being in New York for so long. How has that influenced your work?Sarah: Yeah.Yeah, I was thinking about this the other day, because I really became an adult in New York City. And I do feel kind of douchey now being like, ‘Oh, but I live—I've lived here for a long time.’ [Laughter.] I moved when I was 23. And I left when I was 36. So that to me. I mean, obviously that's a time, a lot of growth. And a really incredible place to do that, as you know, being from New York yourself. But honestly, I decided to leave at the moment when I was really happy. I felt I had done it. I was a success in the city and my life was happy there. And it was the moment that I was happy as opposed to some great disappointment of disaster that I was like, ‘Ok, I'm ready. I'm ready to go. I've done this. I'm ready to go.’So the first move, I decided to come back to Cleveland. My parents were still here. And it was in a way a test to see if my business could exist outside of New York. This was pre-pandemic, moved in 2018. But I moved somewhere that was both close enough that I was still planning on coming back to work every week or two months and seeing if—I mean, God, when I moved to New York City, if you had an out of state or out of city telephone number, you couldn't get a job. There was so much of this very insular—you have to be in New York, have to be a New Yorker. That was the most intimidating part. You'd have seen like, ‘Can I still do events in New York? Will people have any respect for me?’ Obviously, a lot of that has changed since the pandemic. And if there's any positives to come out of it, the fact that you don't have to be located in a certain place, whether you want to be or not to do your job. So it was my first kind of experiment with it. And it did end up being a lot more traveling back and forth to New York, which could be really exhausting. But also part of the reason I moved at that moment to is I knew I was about to start a new book project. And I wanted to try living somewhere with a lower cost of living, and just a different pace of life. And I just knew that I didn't want to live in New York anymore. So I knew there wasn't going to be any sort of big regrets. Just wasn't quite sure what the next step was. So I was in Cleveland for three years. Well, a little more than. I’d said two to three years when I moved out there. But then there was this pandemic thing. I don't know if you heard. And I was really relieved to be there, too, because I could be there and support my parents, which would have been so scary. And I'm sure has been so scary for a lot of people. And like I mentioned to you, I just moved to Las Vegas at the end of August. A great new opportunity came up. I really love the city. I love its natural wonder. And so now, it's a little bit more of seeing like, ‘Ok, a lot of my money comes from doing live events,’ which obviously weren't happening during the pandemic. But it's also become sort of a weird time for doing online classes. People are sick of being online. But I did just come back from New York to try to do first in-person talks and events since the pandemic started. And people are also still a little hesitant to show up in person. All of it's understandable. I'm sick of the loss of connectivity that we get through Zoom too. But it makes total sense. If someone feels under the weather, they're not going to show up for class. Things have sort of hit a weird moment, but I'm just trying to ride it out. Hopefully, one day be able to expand the branded events a little bit more to the West Coast, too. And I don’t know, Alicia. I'm all about learning and experiences. And part of that is just I want to live in a different part of the country so I can understand that better, and maybe sort of understand our country as a whole better, too.Alicia: For sure. And so, I know you started out writing about food as a blogger, you—Four Pounds Flour. How has your relationship to being a food person online changed since you started in the industry? Because it is, like you said now, probably a lot more visually focused than it was. When people were bloggers. You could take a real shitty picture and use it. [Laughter.] Sarah: You're not gonna get those Instagram likes!And that's the coming from art school, too. I wasn't just like, ‘My content has to be good.’ So I didn't really think of myself as a writer. I still don't, in a way. The writing, to me, is a means to an end, a way to have a conversation about food and to express ideas. So coming from art school, it was like, ‘No, my photos are absolutely not going to look shitty.’ I'll tell you this. And bless him. My friend Jay, who I haven't talked to many years—Part of the article process is going through the critique process, which, I think, is honestly one of the most valuable skills I learned there. And so in my fifth year, and I'm in my major, and we're this really tight group of people. And I'm working on opening up this pop up restaurant, I’m and doing a website. And so, I did food photography for the first time. And so I had this critique of my food photographs, and my friend Jay went, ‘That's looking like some Chinese food. China, frankly—’ How do you say it? Some, he said, ‘That's looking like some Chinese fast food menu photographs.’ And I was like, ‘Oh, nooooo.’So it was this real kick in the pants. I mean, I think maybe the closer equivalent is it looks—it looked a little bit more like the collages that you see on the sides of bodegas. That kind of photography I was doing. Because it is a really specific skill to be able to get in there and understand. Just portrait photography, or landscape photography, or animal photography, are all very separate skill sets. Food photography, there are certain tricks that you had to learn. And so I really had to push myself to get better very, very quickly so that I didn't have Chinese takeout slash side of the bodega. Which, by the way, I'm obsessed with bodega collages. And also noticed the aesthetic is changing recently, the last time I was in New York. Maybe that's a different definition. So to me, the visual elements were extremely important. And I knew the food had to look delicious, or at least interesting. Is every photo on that blog that I wrote from—what 2008 to 2018? Is every photo a banger? Absolutely not. But I do feel proud of that. It is super visual. But interestingly, a lot of my work has now shifted away from individual dishes to more broader storytime about food as culture. So my photography has become much more documentarian of the travels I’ll do and the people that I'm meeting, and then the foods that we're eating together.So the transition to Instagram was super natural for me. See, this is the thing. I'm not in Writer Twitter. You're so in Writer Twitter and Food Twitter; I just kind of lurk and retweet. So in some ways, again, even though I have a book out. I’m working on my second book that started as a blogger. I'd never think of myself as a writer. That’s what I try to say when I’m—when somebody asks me what I do for a living. And I don't really want to have a conversation, but it still doesn't work. And they're like, ‘What do you want to write about?’ It's fine. [Laughs.]Alicia: Can you tell me what your next book is about?Sarah: Yeah, I can. So I'm looking at foods that are on the verge of extinction in America. And I traveled all over the country to talk to different people who were the shepherds and the harvesters and the farmers of these different foods. And the reason the foods are becoming endangered are for a variety of reasons. But I think most importantly, that all these foods are tied very deeply to, often, a people and a place. And the peoples that they belong to are peoples that within America have been historically and systematically oppressed. And so, that's one of the ways that America colonizes, is by taking away culture, which means taking away food. And it's looking at what happened, and honestly a lot about the history of American colonialism. But also, the stories of survival. Survival and thriving, too, and how these different peoples throughout America had been able to hold on to these foods, too. And then a little bit of call to action. My hope for this book is that the people and the products that I'm featuring will get the attention, the money, the support that they need and want. Maybe even the legislature. I'm hoping that this book serves these people and serves as a platform for their voices, too. I don't want to get into too much detail because I'm still writing it. Once it’s in the publication process, you can talk and talk and talk about it. But yeah, at this point, someone could probably write it faster than me. I don't think I'm a slow writer. It just takes time, Alicia. You know the work. Alicia: I know. It sucks. It's the worst thing I've ever done. And I am a writer and I hate writing a book. I mean, I hate writing a book because for myriad reasons that I probably shouldn't talk about publicly, but—Sarah: It’s exhausting. I mean, I'll talk about them for you. It's mentally exhausting. It's physically exhausting. I mean, it gives me anxiety. I'm thinking about it all the time for multiple years of one's life. The financial support isn't there. You said something on Twitter that I was like, ‘Same’ so hard that you—Paraphrase. You said, ‘Writing a book takes a lot of thinking. But how do you have time for thinking when you need to pay the bills?’ And that actually, with both of these books, is the hardest part. The money runs out. People are gonna get in advance. Yeah, well, lasts me about eight months of living and doing the research. It all got invested back into the book. I'm not living the high life here. And then you have to work, because you still have bills to pay. So where do you find the time to get the space, not just to write but to think about these ideas of making a great piece of work when you're also doing whatever you need to do to get those bills paid? You're working two full-time jobs when you're writing a book. It’s absolutely exhausting. It’s exhausting.Alicia: Yeah. The third of my advance that I've gotten so far, it wouldn't have paid my rent for two months. Yeah, it sucks. I don't know. I shouldn't have agreed to it.Sarah: It absolutely sucks. And then yeah, I kind of did a second one. ’Cause I was like, ‘Wow, I don't know how to make money.’ And after this, I really have to give it a think. In some ways, I feel guilty, because obviously, this is—What we're talking about is aspirational for probably a lot of people who are listening to this podcast. I mean, I've spent 10 years of my life on two books. And yeah, I'm really proud of my first book. And I think that the second book is going to be something that I'm proud of, too. I've gotten to work with great editors, and we've made something great together. And I think that the book has done something—I think that the big benefit of it, and probably the way you're motivated to do it, is that we can put something good and thoughtful into the world that will—I hope with my first book, too, bettered somebody's life in an indirect way. Just created more understanding around food and culture in America. But man, am I poor. I'm single. I should say to everybody. And happily so. This is where I want to be. Now I live with a housemate, but I was living by myself for a while. And I just read some big article about how society isn't designed for people to stay single who want to stay single. And so, it's really hard. It does feel like, really, an accomplishment every month that I do it where I'm like, ‘Yeah, rent, paid you.’ And it's hard to sort of juggle that between people's perceptions of me. And you probably feel the same way, too, where it's like, ‘I'm successful. I've got a book out. I've got some name recognition.’ I'm not a major food celeb. That's totally fine. But I think people need to look at what I'm doing. They're like, ‘Yes, that's what I want to be doing.’ But everybody—Phew. It's tough some days. It's a real haul. And I don't want to say that love makes up for money. To get through those times of real stressful uncertainty, you really have to be—love and be invested in what you're doing. So definitely after this book, I have to really think about what I want the next step of my career to be because it's just incredibly exhausting. This will be another five-year process from proposal to publication. The financial stress is real. The artistic physicality of writing a book is really draining and uncertain and difficult on your sort of mental health. But I got to meet amazing people and do amazing things that I wouldn't have had the excuse to do otherwise. And I think that that's the addiction and the appeal that keeps bringing me back. If I pitch this book, that means I get to go to this place and meet these people and meet them on their level and in their space and in their life. And to me, that is really—it's the access that being a writer gives you, both that people might be open to speak to you but also the allowance it gives myself to be like—I went to the Navajo Nation and volunteered at a festival that celebrates the Navajo-Churro sheep, and assisted this cook and butcher in butchering a whole animal. I'm sorry. Course you're vegan. [Laughter.] I forgot about that. I’m so sorry.Alicia: I’m a vegetarian, it's ok. [Laughs.]Sarah: Oh, I actually am too. But for me, learning about, meeting people where they're at is also about learning about their food in every single aspect. I had never butchered an animal before. And especially someone who has eaten meat and does still occasionally eat meat, I feel—I've always felt that experience is really important to be with that animal. But I never, I'm not just gonna pick up and volunteer fly to Arizona and then drive for hours to volunteer at a sheep festival. And I do want to do that. If someone asked me if you want to do that, it’d be like, ‘Absolutely.’ But writing it in this book allowed me to do that. And now, I've met people that I feel so connected to. And I'm just rambling now. But, yeah.This book is really special. I feel connected to the people that I interviewed and spent time with in a way that I didn't get to do in the first book. And in this really meaningful way. So that's amazing. That's a moving life, right?Alicia: [Laughs.] It is great. I am too bitter about the book process. But I also like to talk about it because I do feel as writers, we feel a little bit like we owe it to the fact that we make a living being writers to be nice about it. And I think that that's not fair necessarily to people who are coming up and get a, an idea of it as something—I grew up looking at magazines and looking at the contributor page and being like, ‘These people are living the great life.’ And now, I know that that's not true. [Laughs.]Sarah: It’s f*****g hard.And you really have to fight to get paid. I mean, especially now, both the amount of money paid for both articles and books has just dropped in the past 10 to 20 years. And a lot of it comes from online. For some reason, when your words live online as opposed to on the page their value’s less. Which doesn't make any sense. I'm gonna write just as good, no matter where that's appearing. And I don't think that the publishing industry as a whole actually supports great art right now. I mean I appreciate that every publisher has got a couple authors that's making bank, and that they're essentially taking the gamble. It's literally gambling on us, where they're investing money. And they're gonna see if they get their investment back. But I have been with two publishers now. I have never felt financially supported. My third publisher, I feel supported in many other ways. But money is one of the most important ways to be supported. And I also don't like this culture of you’re an artist, you can't talk about money. I got bills to pay. I got food to buy. How do you have space to create good work when you don't feel secure in those things?I teach a nonfiction book proposal and publishing process class with a friend of mine who published an amazing book about bedbugs. She's a science writer. And one of the things we talk about is we're also very brutally honest about what this process is like, what your financial situation is going to be like, especially as a new author. Unless you were already a super famous name, you're not going to be pulling in the big bucks on your first book. The fact that you might never see royalties. My first book, Eight Flavors, has done really, really, really well. I have not seen a dollar. That being said—and this will, I think, happen for you Alicia—is the best part about it, maybe even more so than the getting to go out and connect with people, not writing the book, is that then for at least a year after the book comes out, you get to talk about it. You get to engage in this conversation that you don't have to give any introduction to, because people have read the book. And you can engage with people about these concepts. After the first book, I got to travel for almost two years. There's no official book tour. People are surprised about that nowadays too. But now, they'll do a media tour. But for certain authors, public speaking becomes a part of your job. And I got to speak in a huge diversity of places. And that was really amazing, getting to talk to people about this work that I had done and have these conversations that I've wanted the book to prompt feels so good. And then that, for that one year, you're also just in the money. There's just money coming everywhere. And then you’re like, ‘You know what? I could do this again. I could do this again.’ And the cycle just repeats. And now, I'm 40. So this is why we have to figure things out going forward. But when your book comes out. It's going to be amazing. You're going to have great conversations and—about something that I know you're really passionate about, too. And then that will make you start to think you can do it again. And then you might.Alicia: Ha! [Laughs.] The next one will be very, very different. But in your book that actually is out there that people could buy and read, and hopefully get you royalties, Eight Flavors: The Untold Story of American Cuisine—Sarah: But in the end, I don't care enough. Now that the work is out there, it's like, ‘Get it from your library. Buy it secondhand. Borrow it from your friend.’ To me, in the end, now that the work exists, the money part, in my mind, should not be on the reader. It should be the publisher, right? And the full system that doesn't support artists. Now the book exists. Don't steal it. Don't steal this book. Buy it from a small, independent bookstore, if you want to. Yeah, get it from your friend’s shelf. I don't care if you enjoy it.Alicia: I actually did buy yours second hand at Unnameable Books in Brooklyn. Or was it Book Revue in, on Long Island? I don't know. But it has the price in pencil, so I know I bought it second hand. [Laughs.]Sarah: I'm totally fine with that. I think that’s lovely.Alicia: [Laughs.] But I wanted to ask how you came up with parameters for your definition of American cuisine.Sarah: Yeah, I mean, I think that that's the idea that I wanted to play within this book, because I think American cuisine is famously difficult to define, right? And if people do define it, it's in this really negative way. ‘Oh, it's all McDonald's, all hot dogs and hamburgers, or whatever.’ And I think that internationally, that's often what people think of American food. And I think that Americans often do that to themselves. When, in my experience, I find quite the opposite, that there's a lot of worry about American food becoming homogenized. But it's so often that I'm doing an event and people will come up and be like, ‘Oh, have you tried this local dish? And do you know about this thing? And if you go to this restaurant–’ People are so immensely proud of their local culture and cuisine. So I think a lot of American food is based on physically, graphically, where you grew up. And then of course, I think that saying American food is hot dogs and hamburgers presents a very narrow and, dare I say, racist view of who an American is. Because I'm an American. You're an American. Someone whose family immigrated from China in the 1840s is now fourth, fifth, sixth generation American. Someone who came from India in the 1960s is American if they want to define themselves that way. So it's both a, you mentioned the word sort of erasure when we were talking about this. Using that narrow definition of American is erasure of all of the facets and complications of who Americans are, right? That being said, the fact that—acknowledging the fact that we were a really diverse country, I then got curious about how individual ingredients. What cook doesn't have black pepper and  vanilla in their kitchen? So how can someone come from this huge variety of backgrounds—And I mean, when you travel around this country, it often felt like I wasn't going to different states. It feels like I'm going to different countries that both have their own idea of like, ‘This is what America is,’ but one state over, it's completely different. And they’re speaking a different language one state over, too. So why, then, are there these handful of ingredients that both define us and that Americans consume in massive levels compared to the rest of the world? Why do we have a particular love for these? I think American cuisine can be delightfully undefinable. I think that the idea of cuisine, of a certain way of eating and doing things has a more specific definition. And I think then there can be lots of arguments about what is or isn't American food. And I think that that's all a fun, interesting conversation to have. But so, then I got curious about what does unite us? And apparently it's a few pantry items. And why.Alicia: Right, right. Which is so interesting. And I loved when you wrote about Food Network. Again, as a person who, born in the mid ’80s, watching Food Network, reading Food & Wine, reading Travel + Leisure as a kid was how I understood food other than what my mom was cooking. And you point to how they kind of led to this increase in sales for whole black peppercorns versus powdered. And I think that that's such an interesting thing, because we don't think in the U.S.—Or even I, as a food writer, it's difficult to talk about what ingredient people use that is actually, I don't know how to sit—But people don't use things in their whole forms necessarily in an American kitchen. It is a rare thing to grind your own coffee or grind your own peppers. But for whatever reason, whole black peppercorns really became a thing. It was a joke on SNL that, the huge waiter with, the waiter with the huge pepper mill. ‘Tell me when.’ [Laughs.]But people take for granted the whole peppercorns now. But I wanted to ask, I don't think it's Food Network anymore that's influencing how people eat. What do you think is influencing how people eat now?Sarah: That's a great question. I mean, the Food Network stepped in to fill such a gap that wasn't, that was there. A lot of food magazines, at that point, even in mid ’80s were super high end, let's say. Or very, very low end, Budget recipes. And the Food Network just sort of normalized cooking, and normalized olive oil. And just these whole and fresh ingredients that weren’t out of reach in any way, that you could get at your grocery store, that it didn't cost that much more money that we weren't using. It sort of leveled up home cooking in a lot of ways too. Even for people who mostly were just watching it, as opposed to try and replicate every recipe. I mean, I think that the major food influence right now is Instagram. And I think that there is some negative aspects to that, in that ugly food is delicious. And Instagram really only elevates beautiful food and incredible colors. I try not to be a crabby, elder millennial. Just hates things ’cause they're new. But something really bothers me about venues that are clearly just setups for Instagram pictures. You know what? I just like honesty and logic in any viewing. And so, I don't want food to be set up so that it looks good on Instagram. And I see that in retail and restaurants. They're like, ‘Well, this is going to be our Instagrammable dish.’ But then on the flip side,then I’ll get that. I'm like, ‘Oh, it's gonna be such a tight Instagram photo. I’m sure I’m gonna love it.’ So in some ways, it can be a really negative influence, I think, ‘cause if we're just thinking about—Obviously, we do eat with our eyes. But if we're just thinking about the visuals, we're missing the whole ugly, delicious panoply of amazing foods out there. That being said, it has sort of a positive things, too, because a lot of those really vibrant colors are coming from East Asian ingredients. And so, now things like ube and matcha—Matcha, I did predict being an up-and-comer in Eight Flavors, but I never would have called ube being a thing now, which is not only beautiful, but really delicious. And so, even though I think there can be some negative aspects to just judging food visually, I think that it has allowed us to not ‘ew’ when something is an unexpected color, which I think is a very Midwest, white Midwest, to do, to be like, ‘Eww, why is it that color?’ I think that embracing the beautiful, the beauty in food that often comes from around the world. And I would say particularly East Asian countries do these incredible exclamations of color with their ingredients and flavor and appearance and trompe l’oeil, and all these amazing presentation things that I love seeing embraced in American food, because that also means that those people are being embraced as Americans.Alicia: Right.Well, that leads me to my question of so many of the ingredients in the book are so many ingredients that we have come to kind of consume in the U.S., aren't indigenous to the U.S. And so, you write that in the conclusion that it's our lack of tradition that is allowed for this diversity. And of course, diversity is good in every aspect, but at the same time, I'm always wondering now, what is the difference between assimilation and erasure of origins of food. And what is lost when something becomes American versus retaining its identity at origin? One thing I've been talking about with my husband because he's applying for PhD programs right now in history, and he's going to focus his research on rum and Puerto Rico. And we were talking about people calling coquito ‘Puerto Rican eggnog.’ And then talking about how is that erasing the idea that it probably has roots that are deeper than U.S. colonization and industrial canned products coming. But it's so hard to find that. But then the story ends up just being like, ‘It's eggnog with coconut.’And especially now that you're writing about Indigenous foods, but what is that difference between assimilation and honoring origin? Sarah: Yeah, couple things to comment on. And I'll see if I can start on a larger thought here. I do think that assimilation and erasure are the same thing. I think that when, we are for a large part, especially the last 100 years being an immigrant nation. And so when someone comes here and you say, ‘You have to speak English, you have to cook this way, you have to dress that way.’ That is both assimilation and erasure. And I think that's a horrid concept. And I think that it's a way that, luckily, immigrants have been able to resist in different ways, too. But I spent many years working at the Lower East Side Tenement Museum teaching immigration history about the Lower East Side, but in this broader way. And we did these tours in a way that we could also learn from the people's experiences on the tour. And maybe one of the most heartbreaking things that got sent to me said to me pretty frequently is that someone whose parents were, for example, whose grandparents are from Italy would talk about how they were so sad that they didn't know how to speak Italian because their grandparents would not speak it in the house. They’d refuse to and they're really upset they didn’t get that cultural connection, but then will turn around and talk about how immigrants from Central America don't want to be American and don't want to speak English. And luckily, I had a job where I could call people out. That was part of the process of like, ‘Oh, didn't you tell me earlier that you duh-duh this?’ So I hate that turning around and shitting on the next person, because it just means that we all sort of lose. And luckily, because of the stubbornness of Italian immigrants, we have this really incredible Italian American food way here to go get, to experience and enjoy. But one of the downsides, though, of having a culture that is made up of people all, from all over the world coming to this country, is that we also have erased Indigenous foods and Indigenous ingredients. And that was done purposefully, again, because the American colonial government wanted to come in and take that land, and just push Indigenous peoples into the least desirable sections, or in some case, people—It's an incredible story where people were able to stand their ground and stay, remain on their sacred land. In the face of the deception, manipulation and violence of the American government, that was a very, very difficult thing to do. So we have an incredible number of native ingredients and spices, plants. And in some ways, it has spread all over the world, like tomatoes, and peppers. But I'm seeing a resurgence of American spicebush, which is a native spice from the Midwest and the East that has notes of clove and nutmeg and allspice in it, that's just a plant I could probably go into the woods and find right now. But we’re totally unaware of it, because it wasn't cinnamon. It wasn't these spices that were revered in Europe.That being said, too, Indigenous people have also adapted and brought in new ingredients and new animals and new ways of living. Indigenous people in the Americas are incredibly adaptive. And so, they took the best parts of the colonist’s culture and the parts that suited them, and then made that a part of their culture too. So of course, all of modern Mexican cuisine, a lot of that has to do—I guess the biggest thing I can say is that the Americans didn't have many domesticated animals. And so, that was one of the biggest ways that Indigenous people's lives changed. And Indigenous food changed here, too. But of course, also, there's no way we can also say, ‘Well, that's not real Indigenous food.’ For example, coming back to the Navajo. They've been shepherding the Navajo-Churro sheep for 400 years. So we also tend to have different ideas of tradition. If a white person does something for 100 years, it’s traditional, but if a native person does something for 400 years, it's like, ‘Oh, we just took that from the colonists.’So all that aside. I think that there's also a really positive ways to think about it. Because we are such a jumble of people, both in our country and our cities, we get to look in each other's cooking pots and go to someone's house to experience a new recipe, or Google a restaurant in our neighborhood. So there is also this mutual sharing of food, and I think in particular flavor. It's always like, ‘What is that spice? What is that ingredient?’ And I think that's why I was drawn to looking at individual flavors, individual ingredients, because often it's not necessarily the whole dish that comes into our broader culture at once. It's the sriracha sauce or it's the cardamom. It's this introduction of something that's new that we begin to play with. And when I say American, too, its broad American culture. You see that same kind of playing with a new ingredient for someone who is white Midwestern, or Mexican descent in the southwest. It is this broader idea of a grilled cheese sandwich is delicious, probably no matter where you're from, so that everyone gets to play as opposed to the dominant culture, I think. And maybe think about it as more mainstream than dominant. Alicia: No, no, that's super fascinating. And I think that that's a really great way of thinking about it. Because I do think that the conversation has been really skewed, especially online and food conversations around, what is cultural appropriation? And a lot of people will say, ‘Oh, does this mean I can't cook tacos in my house if I'm not Mexican?’ And it's like, ‘No, of course. That's great. Everyone should eat tacos.’Sarah: Just don’t claim you invented the taco!It seems very simple in some ways, right? I mean, one class I taught, I wish I'd gotten this woman's name. But we were talking about the importance of attribution. And we're talking about it specifically in just recipe writing. I was like, ‘Even if you were just inspired by somebody else, why wouldn't you attribute that person and create a community? Why is there this pressure that we have to—No item of food is new. It's all inspired. No item of art right is new. It's all inspiring to be something else.’And this writer in my class turned to me and said, ‘When in doubt, shout it out.’ And I was like, ‘Yeah, when in doubt, shout it out.’ If you're worried that you’re appropriating someone's culture, shout it out. Credit somebody. But also, if you're worried that you're appropriating someone's culture, maybe don't do whatever it is that you're about to do. Is this appropriation? It probably is. I think that cooking within someone's culture is an incredible way to learn about someone else's life and mode of living, especially at a time when we can't travel very much right now, right? Because it's not just the food and the flavor. It's the process of making it that teaches you about how other people live. And that's an incredible bond. And interestingly, speaking of American erasure and assimilation, food is often the thing that people are the most prejudiced against. 100 years ago, we stopped eating garlic, because Italian and Jewish immigrants smelled like garlic. And that was seen as a negative. The ’80s or the ’90s, kids coming from India or South Korea, or opening up their lunchboxes and getting the ‘ew’ and all they want is Lunchable. So there's definitely that side of it. But at the same time, those same kids grow—Italian food exists because of stubbornness. We have an incredible amount of Korean food, Korean American food now. There's also a stubbornness in giving up our food culture that then ultimately benefits everyone. It's one of the things that almost a dominant culture allows people to maintain. But also, thankfully, it's one of the ways that we can make incredible connections with people, even if we don't speak their language or believe in the same faith. Sitting around the dinner table, experiencing those foods, we all taste, we all eat, we can all talk about food. And it's really an amazing thing. Alicia: Right.And I wanted to ask, because working on my book, a lot of narratives around vegan and vegetarian food for the last 50 years, has—it's been historicized as a white thing, which is just so wildly inaccurate. Even within the United States, this is—there is diversity in people who eat ‘alternative natural foods’ or eat a vegetarian diet. And I wanted to ask, how do you—what are your techniques? What are your methods for helping you see beyond the narratives of the dominant culture, or the dominant historical narrative? Because also, a thing that is perpetuated because we're creating so much content online. I've perpetuated this myself, is that we're just writing stories. And we're grabbing a random source, and we're just repeating it. So as someone who's actually digging into history, what is, what are some good resources? What are some good techniques for not just perpetuating stories that are incorrect?Sarah: Yeah.I think that the biggest way I want to frame this is just because they're the easiest source to find, doesn't mean that they're the best source. Going into the book that I'm currently writing, someone is going to perceive this as racist. But here I go. I wanted to make an effort to include as few white men as possible, because when you do a Google search for anything, the first hits that people with the most media attention, that people with maybe the most sort of money and power and businesses, are going to be white men in this country, because they are the dominant people and have been for a very long time. Does that mean that that white man is the best resource for you? It absolutely doesn't. So the easiest, the most powerful, even the most written about person may not—and in fact, probably is not the best person to talk. Does that mean never talk to any white guy ever? No. Absolutely not. There are white guys in this book. But just making that promise to myself made me keep pushing and not be satisfied with the first answers that I got. Because even in maybe that first phone call with that white guy, they start talking about other people who have inspired them or who they support or who they're linked to. If I just stop at that one phone call, I wouldn't get to all those other people that actually that guy thinks is really important to talk about. There was an Amazon review for my first book, which you should never read. But of course I did. And someone said, ‘It seems like she went out of her way to be inclusive in this book.’ And the answer is, yeah. [Laughter.] Yeah, I did. But also, I also wanted to tell the real history, which is an inclusive history. That's why I study food history, because looking at what we eat finally allows us to access the stories of women and people of color in a way that traditional histories do not. And traditional histories are several generations of both saying that white male history is the only important history, and also because only white men were allowed to do things for so f*****g long in this country means that we never get to acknowledge that everybody else was there too. That we were all there at the same time. So my advice is to keep pushing. Don't go with the first Google search. Don't go with the first phone call. Keep pushing till you find the person you're like, ‘Whoa, this is it. This is where the story is. This is how I can understand this deeper.’That being said, I think part of the issue is that the money doesn't support that kind of writing, whether things get repeated again and again online because maybe you're getting 100 bucks or $150 to write your 250, 500 or 800 word. Or maybe you’re not not getting any money, because you're trying to break into the industry. So when you are making negative dollars per hour to write an article, of course, you're going to take that first Google search. And of course, you're on deadline. And of course, your editor just pressure you to copy something else if they're not a very good editor. So that's how those stories get supported. So it also takes a certain denial of like, ‘Oh, man, if I didn't do this much work, I would be more financially stable.’ But that's also just not the right thing to do. So it really is a battle and it's not easy, and the system is not supporting good journalism right now. That I think is the biggest issue.Alicia: No, absolutely. Well, for you is cooking a political act?Sarah: I've been thinking about this a lot as I know this is your question. I think for me, it is a cultural act, which is a political act in its own way. When we cook, when we cook from home, when we cook within our own cultures, it is an act of preservation. It can be an act of defiance. I mean, sort of speaking about veganism, a friend of mine who is a devoted vegan, which I really do respect, said, though, that he thought that everyone was gonna eat this way in the future and this is definitely the way that we should be going. And at that point, I had just come back from the Navajo Nation. And I'm like, ‘You're gonna go to these Indigenous people and tell them that they can't eat meat anymore, because it's bad for the planet, despite the fact that this particular animal has been a part of their culture and their religion for 400 years? So that's not like a colonizer attitude at all.’ So I realized at that moment that food is religion in a lot of ways. It can be directly tied to religion, but it is such a big part of culture to march in and tell someone you can't eat that way, is—it's really destructive. That can be erasure, too.So just, I think sometimes living your life and eating the foods you want to is this political act, but I think that most people would see it as a cultural act. An act of preservation. And especially around the holidays, that is the time when even people who are maybe many generations removed from an immigrant or enslaved or colonist ancestor, that's when they're cooking the foods to reconnect to that story and to their own history.Alicia: Thank you so much, Sarah.Sarah: My pleasure! Yeah, I got really riled up about some things. [Laughter.] I may have offended some people. It's probably fine. This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.aliciakennedy.news/subscribe

How many times have you heard being the parent of a teen is terrifying and difficult at the same time? There is hope and help. Cameron (Dr. Cam) Caswell, PhD brings a wealth of information and experience to the table. She has a doctorate in developmental psychology, over 15 years coaching parents and mentoring teens, a certification in professional life coaching, and taught adolescent psychology at George Mason University. She's also a mom of a teen too, so she not only talks the talk, she walks the walk! “Teens act out because they feel misunderstood. Teens feel misunderstood because they ARE misunderstood. When we learn to understand our teens, we can remove their need to act out. We're able to change our focus from reining them in to raising them up.” Dr. Cam's passion and purpose is to inspire and challenge families facing everyday problems to re-imagine their family dynamic and build a happier, healthier home life. Her belief is that teens act out when they feel misunderstood. And teens feel misunderstood because they are misunderstood. In her bi-weekly podcast, Welcome to Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam, she guides you around the teenage land minds with practical tips, simple solutions, and words of encouragement.  She's also joined by experts, authors, parents, teens, and many other amazing guests. In this episode with Jill Devine, Dr. Cam gives practical advice on how to navigate the teen years. She also provides examples on how we can start teaching ownership to young kids, so it helps set the kids up for success in their teen years. Jill would like to acknowledge and recognize the hard work moms put in on the daily. It can be a thankless job at times, and Jill wants these moms to know their worth, so she created the Supermom Shoutout, brought to you by Addy's Way. Each recipient will receive a custom designed Supermom tote from Addy's Way, in addition to the Shoutout. This week's Supermom Shoutout goes to Sarah of San Antonino, Texas. Her mother, Deb, nominated her and said: My daughter, Sarah, has given up so much to provide for her four beautiful children. The last time she had a haircut at a salon was ten years ago and only because she was donating it to “Locks of Love.” I'm beyond proud of this Supermom. Sarah - YOU are seen and YOU are supported! To nominate a Supermom (or you can nominate yourself) email hello@jilldevine.com. Submit the name of the Supermom, where they're from, and a brief description as to why Jill should shout out this particular Supermom. Two Kids and A Career Website: https://www.jilldevine.com/ Two Kids and A Career Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jilldevine/?hl=en Two Kids and A Career Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JillDevineMedia/ Thank you to our sponsor: Blondin Professional Real Estate

In this episode, I am very excited to introduce Sarah Baldwin. We will be discussing emotional trauma and how we can begin to heal it. Someone from The Good Space audience asked if we could have Sarah on and we're so glad they did. Sarah Baldwin is a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner and an Embodied Coach. She is also trained in Polyvagal interventions and is on the training team at the Polyvagal Institute. She specializes in somatic trauma healing, somatic attachment work, nervous system regulation and somatic parts, and inner child work. We talk about…[4:00] Sarah's story - How healing brought Sarah to her work[8:47] What is trauma? How can someone know when they experience trauma?[14:37] How we can teach our bodies to feel safe? Understanding our bodies and recognizing dysregulation[18:28] Compiling a toolbox of regulating resources[21:31] What happens when trauma doesn't get resolved?[25:59] The difference between trauma and trauma response.[28:53] Finding the appropriate regulating resources to help your system move for the appropriate situations[32:47] Getting started with seeking help and learning how to regulate your own nervous system[35:45] Q&A - Finding sematic experience practitioners, seeking help, and where to seek resources for young people QUOTES“Trauma is about how any event overwhelms my system's capacity to process it.” - Sarah“You make sense. Every single part of you makes sense and if you make sense, it means you are not broken and if you're not broken, it means healing is possible. Your system knows how to heal. It just needs to be shown the way and that's what this work does.” - Sarah THIS WEEK'S INTENTIONI breathe in deeply to expand, pause to take this moment in, then exhale to release.  WRITING PROMPTWhat comes to mind when I think of what's blocking me from living life fully? Do I have a safe space to process or do I need to create one?  RESOURCES AND LINKS: Get on The Good Stuff waiting listJoin our private Facebook group hereOrder our productivity eBookDM me with thoughts or questions on InstagramFollow Sarah Baldwin on Instagram @sarahbcoachingLearn more about Sarah and her work on her websiteDo you have a spiritual or mindfulness question that you want me to unpack on an upcoming The Good Space episode? Or an awesome manifesting moment you want to share? Leave a voicemail right now at (917) 719-0867 FOR FULL SHOW NOTES: Click here LET'S STAY CONNECTEDSubscribe: Apple, Spotify, StitcherFollow us on Instagram: click hereGet free weekly emails on spirituality: click hereVisit our website: click here

In this episode, I am very excited to introduce Sarah Baldwin. We will be discussing emotional trauma and how we can begin to heal it. Someone from The Good Space audience asked if we could have Sarah on and we're so glad they did. Sarah Baldwin is a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner and an Embodied Coach. She is also trained in Polyvagal interventions and is on the training team at the Polyvagal Institute. She specializes in somatic trauma healing, somatic attachment work, nervous system regulation and somatic parts, and inner child work. We talk about…[4:00] Sarah's story - How healing brought Sarah to her work[8:47] What is trauma? How can someone know when they experience trauma?[14:37] How we can teach our bodies to feel safe? Understanding our bodies and recognizing dysregulation[18:28] Compiling a toolbox of regulating resources[21:31] What happens when trauma doesn't get resolved?[25:59] The difference between trauma and trauma response.[28:53] Finding the appropriate regulating resources to help your system move for the appropriate situations[32:47] Getting started with seeking help and learning how to regulate your own nervous system[35:45] Q&A - Finding sematic experience practitioners, seeking help, and where to seek resources for young people QUOTES“Trauma is about how any event overwhelms my system's capacity to process it.” - Sarah“You make sense. Every single part of you makes sense and if you make sense, it means you are not broken and if you're not broken, it means healing is possible. Your system knows how to heal. It just needs to be shown the way and that's what this work does.” - Sarah THIS WEEK'S INTENTIONI breathe in deeply to expand, pause to take this moment in, then exhale to release.  WRITING PROMPTWhat comes to mind when I think of what's blocking me from living life fully? Do I have a safe space to process or do I need to create one?  RESOURCES AND LINKS: Get on The Good Stuff waiting listJoin our private Facebook group hereOrder our productivity eBookDM me with thoughts or questions on InstagramFollow Sarah Baldwin on Instagram @sarahbcoachingLearn more about Sarah and her work on her websiteDo you have a spiritual or mindfulness question that you want me to unpack on an upcoming The Good Space episode? Or an awesome manifesting moment you want to share? Leave a voicemail right now at (917) 719-0867 FOR FULL SHOW NOTES: Click here LET'S STAY CONNECTEDSubscribe: Apple, Spotify, StitcherFollow us on Instagram: click hereGet free weekly emails on spirituality: click hereVisit our website: click here

Playlist N°20 Du 15 au 22 mai 2021 INTRO LAW BY THE GUN: Breakout (Single-2021) BRAD PAISLEY: Off Road (Off Road-2021) BELLAMY BROTHERS W/ J ANDERSON: No Country Music For Old Men (2021) D. FRIZZELL & M. SARAH: You’re The Reason God Made Oklahoma (Single-2021) ALAN JACKSON: Where Have You Gone (Where Have You Gone-2021) ALEX MILLER: I’m Over You So Get Over Me (Single-2021) BROTHERS OSBORNE: I’m Not For Everyone (Single-2021) CREED FISHER: The Leaving in Your Eyes (How Country Music Sounded …-2021) LANDON HEIGHTS & HOLLY TUCKER: Lead Me On (Single-2021) BUBBA WESTLY: Sweet Amanda (Small Town Loser-2021) RONNIE MILSAP w/ V. GILL: Big Bertha (A Better World-2021) MATT CASTILLO: Leavin’ Brownsville Tonight (2021) THE SHOOTOUTS: I Don’t Think About You Anymore (Bullseye-2021) RODGER WILHOIT: The Touch Of Gold (The Social Work-2021) WEST OF TEXAS: Sign Of A Broken Heart (Heartache, Hangovers & Honky Tonks-2021) REBEL RAILROAD: Whiskey Bay (Rebel Railroad-2021) CODY JINKS: What Else Is New (Adobe Sessions Unplugged-2021) OUTRO : Campfire

Hosts of the new unscripted Netflix show, “Marriage or Mortgage,” Sarah Miller and Nichole Holmes are our guests on this one! Sarah Miller (https://southernvineco.com/meet-sarah/) is a wedding planner and Nichole Holmes (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nichole-holmes-b68b821/) works in real estate. The show centers around trying to convince a client to either choose the house or choose the wedding. Also on this episode, have the pleasure of interviewing Denise & Nick who were one of the couples on the show. Denise & Nick were fetatured on episode 2 and chose....Mortgage! tThey share the decision to pick a house over a wedding. As an added bonus, we had a few TBWPP listeners and fans of Marriage of Mortgage on the Zoom call so they would have an opportunity to watch and ask questions. Big Takeaways When it comes to having a wedding planner, a huge bonus is their connections. Sarah, for instance, has planned weddings in Nashville for many years, and has strong ties with her vendors. She can help get costs down, and find the best team for couple's big day. Remember the most important part of the decision making is how you begin the commitment you give to each other. You can get a house without getting married. You can get married without a wedding, etc. Questions from the Zoom audience: Q: Is there a season 2 in the works? 
 A: Not sure yet! Keep watching and get the numbers in. Q: Did you ever want to shake someone to choose the house over the wedding? A: Every one! Ultimately they get to choose. Links We Referenced netflix.com/title/81113929 Southern Vine & Co. (https://southernvineco.com/) Quotes “Hiring a wedding planner saves you money, saves you time...everything in the long run.” - Sarah “You can get a house, put the majority of the money down, and then have something intimate, and special, and meaningful and still have all of the 'ooey gooey' loveliness that this one thinks they should have.” - Nichole “It is all about us digging deep and trying to know our couples, in real life and on the show, and really figure out what they want. And meet those expectations or exceed them as much as we can.” - Sarah Plan your wedding using The Big Wedding Planning Master Class (https://www.thebigweddingplanningmasterclass.com/). A self-paced digital course created with love for you by Christy & Michelle. The Big Wedding Planning Podcast is... * Hosted and produced by Christy Matthews and Michelle Martinez. * Edited by Veronica Gruba. * Music by Steph Altman of Mophonics. * On Instagram @thebigweddingplanningpodcast and be sure to use #planthatwedding when posting, so you can get our attention! * Inviting you to become part of our Facebook Group! Join us and our amazing members. Just search for The Big Wedding Planning Podcast Community on Facebook. * Easy to get in touch with. Email us at thebigweddingplanningpodcast@gmail.com or Call and leave a message at 415-723-1625 and you might hear your voice on an episode * On Patreon. Become a member and with as little as $5 per month, you get bonuse episodes, special newsletters and Zoom Cocktail Hours with Christy & Michelle! Our Partners (https://www.thebigweddingplanningpodcast.com/partners) Special Deals for Listeners - TBWPP Enthusiastically Approved! Wedfuly (https://wedfuly.com/bigwedding/) SuitShop (https://suitshop.com/?utm_campaign=EngagedLeads&utm_content=BWPPPartnership&utm_medium=BWPP&utm_source=ReferralLink) FlowerMoxie (https://flowermoxie.com/pages/the-big-wedding-podcast) The Flashdance (https://www.theflashdance.com/virtual-party-the-big-wedding-planning-podcast) Cactus Collective (https://www.cactus-collective.com/the-big-wedding-planning-podcast/) Unboring Wedding Academy (https://www.unboringweddingacademy.com/bigwedding/)

Today we talk about some easy ways to make your wedding more sustainable / Green. Remember it is not all or nothing, do what you can! Our guest is Sarah Baillie is a sustainable wedding expert who educates soon-to-wed couples on how to plan the unique wedding of their dreams while embracing their eco-conscious values. Sarah also oversees SoKind, an alternative gift registry, where couples can register for secondhand or homemade gifts, charitable donations, gifts of time or service, experiences, and more. Big Takeaways While there are less meals and less people typically at a destination wedding, local weddings are actually more environmentally friendly. Flying vs driving is a big difference, flying emits about 75x the emissions. When you have your ceremony and reception in one place, you reduce emissions, and it does make the day a lot easier. If you do have to go from a point A to point, having a shuttle bus is a much more efficient means of travel than everyone driving separately. Choosing a place that is already pretty can reduce costs and waste of one-time use decorations. Sarah opted for clutches instead of flowers for herself and her wedding party. This was another way she was able to reduce waste, plus she had the added bonus of having a bag to put her vows in. Opting out of red meat, or going full vegetarian are great ways to reduce your carbon foot print. Because Sarah is vegetarian and her partner is not, they decided to have entirely vegetarian appetizers, and chicken and fish for the entree. Finding a vintage, or gently worn wedding gown can be a game changer. Free Ever After Bridal (https://freeeverafterbridal.com/) is the place that Sarah went, and was able to have the whole experience of the dressing room and trying many different styles and options. Facebook marketplace and Buy Nothing (https://buynothingproject.org/) groups are a great option for decor. In Buy Nothing, you could potentially give or receive the exact items you are looking for without any cost associated. Taking a little time to look for items somewhere other than amazon, or where you would have to buy new can be great for sustainability. Buffets do tend to have more waste than plated dinners. Making desserts easier to walk around with helps reduce waste. Ask what happens with the food that is left behind! Keep track of your numbers so they are as accurate as possible. Ask the caterer to bring to-go containers for buffets, ideally not plastic, so you can send the guests off with food! Favors are a great place to reduce waste. Inevitably, there will be leftovers, so think about things you would want. Consumables are a great idea, like cookies. Biodegradable/Compostable dishes and utensils instead of plastic and styrofoam - Party favors like glasses that guests will use throughout the night Links We Referenced Wildlife-Friendly Wedding Calculator (https://www.endangeredspeciescondoms.com/weddings/calculator.html) wildlifefriendlywedding.org (https://www.endangeredspeciescondoms.com/weddings/) Adventure Aquarium (https://www.adventureaquarium.com/) (Sarah's Wedding Venue) Free Ever After Bridal (https://freeeverafterbridal.com/) (Where Sarah bought her wedding gown) So Kind Registry (https://sokindregistry.org/registry) (Alternative Gift Registry) Center For Biological Diversity (https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/) Center For Biological Diveristy on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/choose_wild/) Center For Biological Diversity on Twitter (https://twitter.com/choosewild) Quotes “Another decision, that I recommend, is choosing a place that's already pretty and doesn't need a lot of decoration.”- Sarah “About 10% of all food at weddings goes to waste, so anywhere you can find ways to reduce that is going to be beneficial.” - Sarah “I don't want it to get overwhelming of all the sustainability things, every little bit counts, it doesn't have to be all or nothing.” - Sarah “You could opt out of favors, all together, but I did like the idea that you could do something good with them.” - Sarah The Big Wedding Planning Podcast is... * Hosted and produced by Christy Matthews and Michelle Martinez. * Edited by Veronica Gruba. * Music by Steph Altman of Mophonics. * On Instagram @thebigweddingplanningpodcast and be sure to use #planthatwedding when posting, so you can get our attention! * Inviting you to become part of our Facebook Group! Join us and our amazing members. Just search for The Big Wedding Planning Podcast Community on Facebook. * Easy to get in touch with. Email us at thebigweddingplanningpodcast@gmail.com or Call and leave a message at 415-723-1625 and you might hear your voice on an episode * On Patreon. Become a member and with as little as $5 per month, you get bonuse episodes, special newsletters and Zoom Cocktail Hours with Christy & Michelle! Our Partners (https://www.thebigweddingplanningpodcast.com/partners) Special Deals for Listeners - TBWPP Enthusiastically Approved! Wedfuly (https://wedfuly.com/bigwedding/) FlowerMoxie (https://flowermoxie.com/pages/the-big-wedding-podcast) The Flashdance (https://www.theflashdance.com/virtual-party-the-big-wedding-planning-podcast) Cactus Collective (https://www.cactus-collective.com/the-big-wedding-planning-podcast/) Unboring Officiant (https://www.unboringofficiant.com/bigwedding/) Special Guest: Sarah Baille.

In this week's episode, Isaline, content strategist and self-confessed SEO nerd, discusses all things multilingual SEO. We also find out what inspires Isaline and what empowers her to be the brilliant women she is today. Where to find Isaline Twitter: https://twitter.com/isaline_margot LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isaline-muelhauser/ --- Episode Sponsor Massive shout out to MediaSesh for supporting the WTSPodcast and sponsoring this episode. MediaSesh is an SEO consulting and training firm located in Denver, Colorado. They help businesses to be found by their customers on search engines. Their newest initiative is to help bridge the gaps between SEO and accessibility.  Where to find MediaSesh: Website: https://www.mediasesh.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/mediasesh Christina Brodzky (Founder) Twitter: https://twitter.com/cbrodzky --- Episode Transcript: Episode 2 - Isaline M Sarah: Hello and a very warm welcome to the Women in Tech SEO podcast, where your hosts are myself, Sarah McDowell, SEO content executive at Holland and Barrett and the wonderful Areej AbuAli, SEO consultant and founder of the Women in Tech SEO community.  This week, we are joined by the wonderfully amazing Isaline Muelhauser who is a SEO nerd and content strategist, and also host of community SEO Nerd Switzerland and Content Strategy Lausanne. And she's a lover of cats and the outdoors. Hello! Isaline: Hello. Hello Sarah. Hello Areej. Sarah: This episode is sponsored by MediaSesh. Medaisesh is an SEO consulting and training firm located in Denver, Colorado. They help businesses to be found by their customers on search engines. Their newest initiative is to help bridge the gaps between SEO and accessibility. Their founder most recently conducted a webinar where she spoke with three brilliant women in the accessibility space to discuss how there's a discrepancy between how SEO is optimize images using the alt text field and how they should. You can learn more about that on their Twitter handle, which is @mediasesh or their website mediasesh.com. You can also follow their founder, Christina Brodsky on Twitter @cbrodzky How are we both doing? Areej: Really good over here. Super excited to have Isaline on with us. She is one of my favorite people in the community. And I know, I probably say that about a lot of people, but I mean it. Sarah: You can have multiple favourites, that's okay. Areej: Tell us more about you Isaline. I'm so excited that we've got you here and you do so much with  your meetups. You have a lot of different things that you host locally as well. So we'd love to learn a little bit more about you. Isaline: Yes, thank you for welcoming me today I'm really happy to nearly meet you in person, at least get to talk to you instead of writing. And so usually on Saturday mornings, I would be at my rowing training on the Lake. So I'm not unhappy to be here inside because the weather is not that good. So. It was a beautiful excuse not to go and sleep a little longer. So, so I'm really happy to join you this morning. And yes, I, I co-host two communities, one of them with my, one of my best friends, it's SEO, nerd Switzerlands and we just felt that it was really important to bring some knowledge about SEO to the Swiss people and also crate the contents that we find interesting. And the articles that we find worth reading and good sources. Because very often when people look for information and internet, it can be overwhelming with all of the articles. And when one is the beginner, it's difficult to know. What article is a good article and can be trusted. And what is a good source? Yup. Areej: Yup. I love your meetup and I love that you continued doing it during the lockdown world we're in right now, which meant that you managed to get a lot of awesome people that you normally wouldn't have managed to get to if you were based locally. I know that you recently had one with Ruth on accessibility,...

Jamie is a technical SEO best known for taming JavaScript frameworks like Angular and React, helping websites share information with humans by improving how search engines crawl, render, and index. In this week's episode, Jamie discusses ethics and disinformation surrounding not just SEO but the internet as a whole, covering topics such as who's responsible, why it's an issue, ways to tackle these challenges and much more. We also find out what inspires Jamie, challenges she has faced as a women in the industry and what empowers her to be the brilliant women she is today. Where to find Jamie Twitter: https://twitter.com/jammer_volts LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-indigo/ Website: https://not-a-robot.com/ --- Transcript Sarah: Hello, and a very warm welcome to the Women in Tech SEO podcast, where your hosts are myself, Sarah McDowell, podcaster, and SEO content executive at Holland and Barrett. And they absolutely wonderful, Areej AbuAli, who is an SEO Consultant and founder of Women in Tech SEO. WTSPodcast is your weekly podcast for all things SEO related guest, starring brilliant women in the industry.  Hello! How are we doing? Areej: Yeah. Good. Thanks. Super excited to be here today. Sarah: Yes. It's the first one. How are you feeling about it? Areej: Yeah, I'm feeling good. I'm really excited. I'm in great company. I've got you. I've got Jamie. So looking forward to it. Sarah: Ah, there you go. You've done like a subtle little hint there about introducing our first guest on the show. So yes, we have with this for our very first Women in Tech SEO podcast, Jamie Indigo, who is a technical SEO best known for teaming unruly JavaScript frameworks like angular and react. She helps websites share information with humans by improving how search engines crawl, render and index. A very warm welcome to the show Jamie! Jamie: Thank you so much. It's an absolute pleasure to be here with two of my favorite humans, part of my favorite community. Areej: It's so good to have you, Jamie. I'm sure that a lot of people who are listening already know a lot about you and about how awesome you are, but we would love to hear a little bit about you from you. Jamie: Oh, me for me. Well, that's exciting. Well, I'm not a robot, but I speak bots and that's pretty important. Because my focus is as an SEO so niche that I don't understand how rankings work and I'm too afraid to ask, but really it's focusing on the rendering process. Everything from how Googlebot fetches content to, you know, response codes, we're giving a look at the log files and see where those resource requests are going. And when it goes into the web rendering engine, how is that executed? Where the contents available at two, we have a whole sneaky set of your eyes that no one expected to exist. The cannibalize, our world. You'd be surprised a lot of cannibals heading out there. Sarah: Wonderful, wonderful. Something we used to do with SEO SAS was with each of our guests. We do like a quick fire round of silly questions. How are you feeling about that?  Jamie: I love silly questions. Yay.  Sarah: Okay. So there's six in total and I literally just want you to like clear your mind and just answer the first answer that comes to your head.  All right, let's do this question. Number one. Can you share food? Jamie: Yes. Sarah: Something that spiky Jamie: Porcupine. Sarah: They are very spiky. Are you a tidy person?  Jamie: Absolutely not.  Sarah: Ah, they say the best creative people are untidy. I swear. I've read that somewhere. When coming in, do you stay within the lines? Jamie: Hm, no. I'm a big fan of coloring books, and that inherently involves some new lines. Sarah: And final question if it's a hot day, what drink are you craving?  Jamie: Oh, water. Sarah: Just water?  Jamie: Yeah, I want to stay hydrated. Sarah: You don't want anything in your water? Like a bit of lime or sparkling...

My name is Sarah Chapman. I’ve been married for almost 20 years to my husband, Trent, together we have 5 children and live in Lehi, Utah. I am an author of two books, “MindStrength for Women” and “Underneath it all.....You’re Naked” Both of these books were written after a very hard period of time in life. One was about my physical journey to coming back to myself and the other is my sexuality journey of overcoming my judgment about sex to becoming more curious. I went about teaching women about sexual health for 2 years and mainly surrounding the female sexual response cycle. I taught women that you can’t find freedom in your understanding of your sexuality until you have overcome the deep rooted beliefs about sex. I found my own freedom from it that is why I wrote a book about it. Now my focus is on creating a community of women where we come together weekly to share the physical, mental and sexual aspects of our lives and have meaningful discussions with a workbook followed by an exercise class. Because movement creates emotion. You can find me: Instagram : @mindstrength.for.women MindStrength for Women Facebook Group Email: sarah@mindstrengthmentor.com   Full Transcript:  00:00 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.   [music]   00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. On today’s episode we have Sarah Chapman, who is an author; and we’re excited to review her book with her today and kinda learn her journey to getting to this book. Sarah, welcome to the show.   00:44 Sarah: Thank you for having me, Daniel. I appreciate this, it’s really exciting.   00:48 Daniel: I’m very excited. As someone who’s writing a book, I also 1) kinda selfishly learn your journey, (mine’s been a very difficult one). And, so I may get a little selfish in my inquiries here--but more importantly, I’m curious to hear more about you. Who are you as a wife, as a person, as a mother? Tell us a little about yourself and what got you to this point.   01:12 Sarah: Sure, love to. So, I (we), Trent and I, my husband and I, will be going on 19 years of marriage this September. I have 5 children, I currently live in Utah. We lived in California for a time, actually, in San Diego area actually. Miss that place, for sure. But, yeah, I first basically grew up in an LDS home and I grew up in a family with 8 children, and I’m 6th of the 8. [...] In our home we didn’t talk about anything remotely close to our bodies. We were very surface type of family. We didn’t really talk about hard things. I wouldn’t say that we were an authentic family. But, at the same time, I did feel loved by my parents and I felt that they were providing me with a really great education, secularly as well as spiritually. And so, I didn’t feel like I was necessarily neglected in the way I was thinking.    02:29 Sarah: However, growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I’d run around with some friends who were sexually active and seeing the naive young teenager that I was, I kinda looked at them and viewed them as people who were naughty girls, right? And so, I remember church lessons here and there. It wasn’t very often, but I do remember those specific metaphors that were shared. I actually did get the “chewed up piece of gum” kind of analogy, which maybe a lot of your audience here might have gotten.   03:10 Daniel: Oh…(sarcastically) excellent. Yeah.   03:13 Sarah: You know? And then I also just really created a lot of...I would just look at the word sex and just immediately think that it was just this dirty thing. However, there was also this other part of me that was being told that it was this sacred thing, and you don’t talk about it, right? And so I was just kinda like this....back and forth in my head about like, “what is this?” Sure, I had boyfriends in high school and I do remember getting close a couple times where I feel like my body was in a state of arousal. Obviously I didn’t know what it was, because I didn’t know my body then. But looking back, I’m like, “Oh, that’s what that tingling sensation was when I was getting close to that boy, oh! Okay, right.”    04:06 Sarah: I can say that now, but at the time, as a teenager, I didn’t at all. And I never (like when I would shower and stuff), like I would just hurry and shower really quick and then get out. I never wanted to self-pleasure or anything, at all. I didn’t even know my body. And so, come the time of marriage, the night before I’m to be married, my mom thinks it’s a great time to talk about sex. She pulls me aside and she basically asked me, “You’re gonna have sex tomorrow night, right?” and I was like, “well, I guess…”. I mean, I kinda remember my teenage years back in high school telling me that a penis goes inside a vagina, but then I was like...I plugged my ears like “I don’t wanna hear this, I don’t wanna hear this!” I just kinda ignored what they were gonna tell me. I knew just that fact: that a penis goes into a vagina and that was it. My mom was like, “Well, here’s a book. Go ahead and read this book.” And it was the book from...is it called, Between Husband and Wife by Lamb? Dr. Lamb?   05:14 Daniel: Oh yeah, oh yeah. 05:15 Sarah: Yeah, it was that book. And I was like, “Mom, I don’t have time to read this book.” And she’s like, “Well, you’ll eventually refer back to it.” And that was it. That was my sex talk from my mom. I was just basically thrown into the fire the night of my wedding. It was very traumatic. Very long, exhausting night as any honeymooners would imagine, who had never had sex before, trying to figure things out, trying to figure out our bodies. Anyways, it was just a mess. And I called my mom the next day, just in tears, like, “I just got married and this just happened to me.” I didn’t go into detail with her because we don’t...we don’t talk about details or anything like that. But I really wanted to, like, it was like this cry for help. Like, “why didn’t you tell me these things? Why didn’t you help me to understand how my body works in this way? That it’s supposed to be designed for this?” Anyway. That’s just kinda the cycle that happened for I’d say the first 16 years of my marriage. That was the only thing we really fought about in our marriage, was sex. It wasn’t money or anything, it was always about sex.   06:42 Daniel: You mean, the issues were always about sex? 06:45 Sarah: The issues, yeah. 06:46 Daniel: Okay. 06:47 Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. The issues around sex. He would always try to approach me and help to try to fix me, right? Because of course he wanted a decent experience, too. But, at the same time, I was looking at him like, “Oh...this is all you want. You just want my body.” And that was it. I viewed myself as this tool for him.   07:09 Daniel: So let me pause you right there. What you just stated was big! It was huge. So, you viewed yourself as a tool for him to get satisfied, is that what you’re saying? 07:22 Sarah: Exactly, yeah.   07:24 Daniel: And that was because of…   07:25 Sarah: You know, because I never...I never wanted to receive that pleasure for myself. Because I once again thought it was like...I thought I was a bad girl if I did that, right? So, even when I did have an orgasm, I’d immediately feel guilty every single time afterwards because of this shame that I’d created in my head about me having pleasure. So then, I viewed him as, “oh, he’s just using my body, and sex is for him, and orgasm is something that he just needs all the time.” 08:03 Daniel: I wanna explore that a little bit, if you’re okay with it. I know you bring it up in indirect ways, in fact, in your book Underneath it All... and I apologize to the audience, I didn’t mention the name of your book, Underneath it All...You’re Naked. I love that title by the way, I think it’s excellent.   08:18 Sarah: Thank you   08:19 Daniel: And your subtitle is “shedding light on misconceptions about sex from a Christian wife to Christian women.” But what you said right there was, you couldn’t allow yourself to experience pleasure. If you’re okay with that, let’s explore that a little bit more. You’re not the first to say this on my podcast and I hear it a lot from clients. What did it mean to you to experience pleasure? You’re married now, you knew clearly beforehand that (or, atleast, your value system says that) before marriage, I’m not gonna experience this. You’re saying: you jump in the shower, you get out as fast as you can because you didn’t want to self-stimulate or do anything wrong.   08:56 Sarah: Yep   08:57 Daniel: So now you’re married. What was the barrier for you in allowing yourself to experience that joy?   09:08 Sarah: Well, I think you’re basically asking what kinda shifted that focus for me? 09:16 Daniel: Well, what continued? A lot of men will get into relationships, they know they’re not supposed to pleasure before marriage but now they’re in marriage and they’re willing to let it all go--kinda the dynamic you just explained with you and your husband.   09:28 Sarah: Yeah.   09:29 Daniel: But, what prevented you, I guess...maybe, is it a shift? I guess that’s the question I’m asking you is, is it a shift? Or, it seemed more like though, you carried this perspective: “I’m not allowed to have sexual pleasure even in marriage.” Which seems incongruent with the thoughts and beliefs you had before marriage. What was the barrier to...I mean, you saw your husband having pleasure, did that peak your interest and say, “How can I have that pleasure?” or was it this continued, “I can’t have this. It’s too shameful, it’s too hurtful.” 10:04 Sarah: No, it was definitely too hurtful to me. I would just, lay there. I always like to say I’d lay there like a dead fish, maybe you’ve heard that term before. I would just allow him to just do whatever he wanted to my body. You know? And I was really good at faking orgasm. It was definitely something just to get him off me as soon as I could, right? Because I just felt dirty the whole time, when he was on me. It’s amazing how much conditioning that I had created in my head, and this belief that really ate away at my soul. To know that this shame enveloped my whole body and created a wedge in my marriage to where I looked at him as somebody that just used me. You know?    11:10 Daniel: So, I’m really curious. What took you from that experience to what you say on page 56? It’s this idea of being able to embrace very differently. Practice patience, self-compassion, and have a sense of humor about it. That seems like a complete 180 shift.    11:29 Sarah: Yeah. 11:30 Daniel: What was the journey you had from what you’re experiencing, that “pleasure is painful and icky” to this wonderful perspective of even having a sense of humor about it? What led you there?   11:41 Sarah: Well, not an overnight thing. I’ll just say that right now. [laughs] It definitely was, you know, I had this moment--this wake-up call. Sixteen years in, I was fed up. Basically telling myself over and over and over, “Sarah why can’t you figure this out? Why is this so hard for you? Why can’t you just get over this? Why do you look at sex in this perspective?” Just this why, why why. I finally had this moment of surrender. I didn’t talk to anybody, Daniel. I suffered in silence for years. I didn’t talk to my sisters, definitely not my mom, right? Not even my girlfriends, nobody. 12:30 Daniel: That’s what we’re taught. We’re taught to not even talk to our loved one’s about it, even our spouse.   12:34 Sarah: Exactly, exactly. And of course, then Trent would ask, my husband would ask me, “what is it you want?” And I’m like, “well, I don’t know what i want.” I’ve never allowed myself to have conversations and talk about it. He would just ask me question after question to open my mind and see the possibility and then I’d shut him down all the time, right? It was just this constant battle. So finally, it was just this one day, I called Suzanne, right? I refer to her in my book a lot. She was this woman who I met randomly in Guatemala of all places. I just look back and I’m like, it was by divine design that I would meet her that summer of 2017 so that she could open my eyes.   13:20 Daniel: I actually love what you said about Suzanne, is that she started her journey because of romance novels. I like that.   13:29 Sarah: Yeah. I’m not a big romance novel kind of girl but you know, some people are. Anyway we got to talking. We literally...our airbnbs were literally across from each other. I didn’t know Spanish, she didn’t know Spanish, it was a Sunday afternoon, we had nothing else to do--so we got to know each other. And we literally...like, she just opened up to me. We talked about our sex lives, and this ws the very first time I was like, this is a really fun conversation! It was the first time I actually looked at it with clear eyes to see the potential in me and the hope. Because she had already kinda gone through her own little journey, because she was basically me. She gave me hope to look at it with a different set of eyes. I went from a place of--this is where I talk a lot about, in my book--this view of going from a judgement place to being more curious. She allowed me, she gave me permission. It’s interesting how as women, we need permission, you know? 14:44 Daniel: What I’m curious though, is, what was it about Suzanne that allowed you to open up? you have been fighting this for so many years.   14:52 Sarah: Yeah.   14:53 Daniel: What prevented you from putting up another barrier? “Nope, I’m not talking about that, that’s betraying my husband, that’s betraying myself…”   14:57 Sarah: That’s true.   14:58 Daniel: What was it about her that allowed you to open up?    15:03 Sarah: Good question.   15:04 Daniel: I think that’s the biggest thing with women is finding that opportunity and how, because they get into this same place where “I can’t talk about this and I won’t talk about it and I don’t care how familiar I am with you”--so what was it about her>   15:15 Sarah: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I had been studying and learning about...I love Brené Brown, and at that point in my life I’d really been learning vulnerability and authenticity. When she just started talking to me and exposing herself to me, I was .... she gave me permission to therefore share my things, right? There’s power when you can start a conversation and be like, “I’m messed up.” You know? “Here’s all these parts of me that I don’t understand, can you help me kinda walk through this?”    15:53 Sarah: And that’s what she was for me, you know? And I think that’s what really created that safe place for me. She was like my safe place, because we could relate on so many levels, right? And I think when there’s vulnerability and authenticity in any friendship or relationship, there’s definitely power behind that--to be able to know, “hey, I’m not alone. We can do this together.” And I feel like that’s kinda what I’ve been doing now...you know, here’s my mess and I’m creating it into a message and helping other women to understand “you’re not alone. You’re not broken. There’s hope for you.” And I think that’s what's beautiful about this. And that’s what made that shift for me, is to allow myself to just open up, receive the information from this trusted (well, quick-trusted friend, right? I’d just met her) and just share all of me with her. It was quite an experience, that was for sure.   17:00 Daniel: So it sounds like Brené Brown gave you that courage,    17:04 Sarah: Yeah, exactly.   17:04 Daniel: that platform, or, not platform, kinda that foundation that it’s okay to be vulnerable here. But what I think is important for the audience to be aware of is, you’re still really new in your journey. This was very recently. So, you went to, on that trip back in, if I remember right, 2017? 17:20 Sarah: 2017, yeah. 17:21 Daniel: So you’re only like, three years into this. 17:25 Sarah: Yeah. 17:25 Daniel: That is phenomenal! You cranked out a book in sharing your journey. That’s...   17:31 Sarah: Yeah. 17:32 Daniel: So, emotionally, what is that like for you right now? So, kinda step away from the book and this narrative. You really are, in the context of people who are learning themselves, you’re really at the beginning of this journey. So, emotionally, what are you going through right now?   17:52 Sarah: Emotionally, I mean, you know what? I started it...I just consumed as much information as I could. I finally got to this place where I could..   18:06 Daniel: Do you feel like you’re a lot more confident? Or do you feel like you still have a lot of insecurities or vulnerabilities around it? Where do you feel like you’re at? 18:15 Sarah: I totally feel confident in my sexuality now, and that I can say that--I wouldn’t say 100%, for sure--I’m still learning and growing and I think that’s what’s great about understanding your sexuality because it’s going to always evolve and change because there’s just more things we’re gonna find out about ourselves. But, oh man, just to think about where I’ve...even just two years ago...to where I am now, and being able to have emotional connection with my husband, and him understanding how me, as a woman, how I work. And, you know, he takes the time to emotionally connect with me before even getting into the bedroom, you know? And understanding how my body needs to go through this sexual response cycle, which, I talk about that in my book. There’s a lot of therapists out there that talk about the different sexual response cycles that we go through, right? 19:20 Daniel: Exactly. 19:21 Sarah: And just, understanding that.   19:22 Daniel: So you gave yourself permission to get here so that you can help your husband understand your body because in the past, you know, he’s asking what you want, and as you said, you’re there as a dead fish. Just, finish it out. 19:33Sarah: Yeah. 19:34 Daniel: That, I think, is critical. Like I posted in our Improving Intimacy group today this idea of, especially with women, “okay, I’ve given myself permission, now it’s scary.” Was it scary to give yourself permission? Were you afraid of what you discovered? 19:50 Sarah: Oh, yeah! Yeah. So, of course, we’re going to have those fears. It’s part of our human nature, especially when we’ve created so much judgement and shame around it. There’s going to be fear that comes up. And there’s definitely going to be things that we might come across we don’t quite understand, or we definitely judge really quickly, right?    20:18 Sarah: Masturbation being one of them for me. That was a huge, like...I didn’t want to enter that specific subject until I felt comfortable in my body first, and learning the anatomy of my body first, before I could venture into that. So I feel like it’s a series of stepping stones. You kinda have to evolve into and work into. As I started reading all these books, that’s kind of what happened after I met with Suzanne, she gave me a couple books to read--and from there, I just took off. I was like, thirsting for knowledge for the first time in sex. Once I’d read one book, I went to the next book, and then I went to the next book. Just reading so much content that I could get my hands on. It was this, like, basically cry for help and just learning on my couch from all different kinds of therapists and sex experts and human sexuality professors and so many things, and I just was like, “oh my gosh! I’m finally in a place where I can receive this!” And yes, there’s gonna be content out there, once again, that we just kinda have to like, pick and choose, I don’t know, what resonates with you? 21:39 Daniel: I think that’s...I wanna ask you about that.    21:43 Sarah: Sure.   21:44 Daniel: But before I do, I really appreciate you addressing, briefly, in your book, about masturbation. You give a context for it, the history behind it, the fears around it. 21:51 Sarah: Yeah. 21:52 Daniel: What was that journey for you? You’re addressing that fear, you’re realizing, “okay, I need to understand myself.” Some wives feel like, “okay, I do need to figure out my body, but I will not do it without my husband present.    22:05 Sarah: Yeah.    22:06 Daniel: What was it like for you? Did you find that it was more valuable to do it alone so that you could do it without pressure? Or was it important for you to explore that with your spouse? 22:15 Sarah: So, in the beginning, I chose to explore with my husband. And it’s still a work in progress, Daniel [laughs], it’s still kinda like...I’m not fully 100% like going off by myself all the time, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like, it’s kinda going back to this stepping stone thing. I start with my husband to understand, and know, and feel comfortable, and then [...] it’s still just something that I know, I KNOW--that’s the crazy part, I KNOW--that it’s beneficial for me to know what feels good and what doesn’t, you know?    22:56 Daniel: Absolutely.   22:57 Sarah: But then, the shame just creeps in. And I remember this one specific time, I was like, “okay, Sarah.” I was seriously coaching myself! “Okay, Sarah, we can do this. We can do this!” You know? 23:11 Daniel: And you’re talking about when you’re masturbating, you’re trying to... 23:14 Sarah: Yeah!   23:14 Daniel: ...to get into the headspace.   23:15 Sarah: Like, I’ll go and I’ll coach myself and like, I’ll breathe and everything. A really great book, Slow Sex, was really powerful for me, by the way. 23:24 Daniel: Okay, excellent. Excellent book.   23:25 Sarah: Just the breathing, and… yeah.   23:26 Daniel: I think a lot of...so, we’re speaking to an LDS audience or a Christian-based audience. Sometimes, that book isn’t received very well. She talks about a lot of--   23:37 Sarah: Yeah   23:38 Daniel: So, the audience--it’s an excellent book. Excellent book. It does venture into some concepts and ideas that I think are extremely helpful, but be aware, it is not a warning, but just be aware--you're not going out and getting, you know, an LDS book about how to understand your own sexuality. It’s a very raw and in-depth book. Excellent.   24:00 Sarah: Yeah. 24:01 Daniel: So, I think that’s, so that kinda leads me into my second question, or where we left off before I asked this question. There’s so many resources out there. Often, when people try to explore this route, they stay, you know they kind of follow that insecurity be staying on a very safe path of resources. I don’t wanna name any books, I don’t want anybody to feel like they’re being judged around it, but--   24:27 Sarah: Sure.   24:28 Daniel: How did you, for example, Emily Nagoski, that’s not an LDS author. How did you determine which books were good for you? Whether it’s Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, or Natasha [breaks off]   24:39 Sarah: Uh huh.   24:40 Daniel: What was your internal compass to decide, “this is helpful, this is good in my pursuit of my own sexuality, but being within the framework of my faith?” 24:51 Sarah: Sure. The thing is, when you go on Amazon, there’s going to be all kinds of reviews from all over, right? Of course I would read the reviews, that’s what most people do when they go searching for a book. but also, of course, having my friend Suzanne of course had already read a few. So I kinda had an understanding... 25:14 Daniel: [laughs]   25:15 Sarah: ...from some of the things, right? so then there’s also...I did go and actually look them up, not just about their book but just them as a person. I did some research on who they are and like, what are they teaching, what are they, like, out there, like, what’s their message, kind of thing. And so then I felt more comfortable to kinda open up and seek. And of course, I’d go to my city library, right? And go to the sexuality section and I’d just camp out and just kinda peruse books that way. That’s also helpful ‘cause it’s free. It’s not like I’m going to buy a book. But, there’s so many [pauses] there’s amazing people out there doing amazing things, and I just…   26:09 Daniel: So I guess, let me push a little on this, is--for example, with Slow Sex, what kept you from reading that and saying, “whoa. This is way outside of my value system.” 26:17 Sarah: [laughs]   26:18 Daniel: “I shouldn’t be reading this.” And we’re talking about, just three years ago, you’re Sarah who’s just now recognizing all the rigidity around your sexual understanding and lack of understanding with your sexuality.   26:31 Sarah: Yeah.   26:32 Daniel: What kept you from throwing that book aside and saying, “this is horrible”?   26:39 Sarah: Well, I know this sounds really simple, but what I kept coming back to all the time, Daniel, was “Sarah, quit judging it. Be more curious.” 26:50 Daniel: Not simple at all. That is beautiful.   26:54 Sarah: You know, that’s it. That’s all...and that’s what I had to tell myself all the time. “Sarah, you’re looking at oral sex and you’re judging it. How can I be more curious about how it can apply to me and my relationship in my intimate relationship with my husband?” Like, what does that look like, you know? And so [laughs] it really is simple. But it is so profound to me, and it’s carried me the last three years. And that’s why I really hone-in on it in my book. Waking up women to understand, “quit judging it so much,”   27:34 Daniel: Absolutely love it.   27:34 Sarah: “and look at it from a place of curiosity.”   27:35 Daniel: And I think you see that journey as you go through this, like, starting in...what chapter is this? Page 100 or so. You start talking about loving yourself from the inside out. And you do a full inventory: “what do I lack? What am I insecure about?” (I’m putting some of my own words to this, but…) you take the individual through this process and I think that’s key. absolutely key. So, yes, the answer is simple, but boy, the process can be painful. That’s something that I actually warn my clients when I do this similar type of self-inventory. I have them often review themselves: where did they start--I like the word you used, stop judging it, and just learn from it. And I have people start to do this, is “stop judging your body, in fact, look at yourself. You think you have a fat tummy, who told you that? Who defined that for you?”   28:28 Sarah: Exactly.   28:29 Daniel: “Who took away your agency to keep you from actually looking at yourself in the way you should? Who defined it?” And they’ll go through this emotional process, “oh my goodness, that first boy I dated, he made fun of me or he poked me in the tummy and ever since then, I’ve been insecure. I’m not gonna let that dude take away from my agency. I’m gonna choose how to view my body.” And you kinda do a similar thing here.   28:53 Sarah: Yeah. 28:54 Daniel: Tell us a little more about that.   28:55 Sarah: Yeah, so, this is actually my second book. [laughs] I wrote a book 5 years ago called, MindStrength for Women. And it was all about just loving ourselves and overcoming this idea that we’re not enough and we're not good enough, not smart enough, and all these things, right? Of course I, at that time, I did like, I’d learned a lot about myself. And so the crazy part to all that whole story was, I felt amazing and went through a physical change, emotional change, and all these other things, but I kept sex hidden up in the corner, you know? Like in this closet, you know? So when I actually brought sex in, into the light, right? Now I felt like I’d become this whole person, and then like, a wholly unique being.    29:54 Sarah: And I talk about this term called “sexy confidence” in my book, and how as women, it’s not so much about our body or anything of that nature. It’s about, how do we walk into a room, and how do we make people feel? What kind of energy are we bringing into the room? Is this a loving environment? And this is where I kinda had to do this with my husband, too. Because, when you’re in the bedroom, as women, we start to...like, if we even put on a piece of lingerie or something, we start to immediately judge our body that it’s not looking so amazing.    30:35 Sarah: And I talk about, when I’m with women and stuff, I talk about this idea of like, you know, there’s this...we as women get into serious judgement, but when we can come from learning to love ourselves from the way God sees us (because obviously that’s important), that we can be able to be at one with our husbands, even. And not focus so much on the belly fat that’s hanging out when we’re trying to get on top of him, you know? And just like, how we can emotionally connect instead of looking at our bodies and judging every nook and cranny that we don’t like, kind of thing.   31:25 Daniel: Love that.  Now, you jumped into something later on, about how women need novelty. I thought this was interesting. I believe it. I’m one who likes to shatter myths out there. But the prevailing thought is, men need novelty. Women want consistency. Tell me more about this.    31:45 Sarah: Yeah. 31:46 Daniel: I think this is fascinating. I don't think anybody else is addressing it, and I’ve read a lot of books, so tell me a little about your discovery there.   31:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, I think [...] I do believe women, we do need novelty. We just don’t think we need it [laughs]. I don’t know if that makes sense. We do love,   32:11 Daniel: Yes   32:12 Sarah: we like change. I don’t like the same position every time, I mean, anybody else? I mean, once I actually, was the--I mean, yes, I did missionary position for years, trust me, I know. But now that I’ve educated myself and I’ve found other ways to, you know, “quote, unquote” “sized up the bedroom” I actually do thrive on change in the bedroom. It keeps the spark alive and it creates more novelty, you know? 32:43 Daniel: Well, I think that’s important,   32:45 Sarah: Yeah   32:46 Daniel: because I think a lot of men get criticized because they want something new and that’s scary for their partners, but I--   32:51 Sarah: Yeah   32:52 Daniel: You’re realizing, part of the problem is you wanted it to be changed up, you wanted it exciting, you wanted it novel. And I think that’s part of the discovery for a lot of women in discovering their desire is, “wow, I’m realizing I’m not as vanilla as I thought I was.” 33:07 Sarah: Yeah. 33:08 Daniel: “Where will this end?” Were you concerned with that? Did you feel you were gonna go into desires and passions and things that were forbidden for you? What was that experience like for you? 33:19 Sarah: Yeah. Well, of course in the beginning--because, you know, my shame was still enveloped around me in certain points where it would rise up, you know? But then I’d have to open my eyes, like, “Sarah, quit judging it again!” You know? But at the same time, I realized how we can add just more experiences that we haven’t had necessarily before, in like, the safety of our own couple relationship.   33:55 Daniel: Just going back to the concept of not judging it and allow it to flow naturally.    34:01 Sarah: Yeah.   34:02 Daniel: As Emily Nagoski says, don’t put on the brakes. Just... 34:05 Sarah: Yeah, the brakes. I love that analogy, too. Oh my gosh, shes...yeah. Don’t put on the brakes, keep the accelerator going, because, you know. Sometimes, you don’t know if you’re even going to like it. So, quit judging that you’re not going to like it before you even start it, right? And allow yourself to receive. Okay, that’s another thing. Oh my gosh. As women, we give, give, give all day long, to everybody and everything. All the time. Right? So when I was like, “Sarah, you deserve to receive. You get to receive pleasure, you get to receive these different avenues of novelty, and this is okay for you.” Like, once again, I [laughs] I’ve had to coach myself. I do thisl ike, mental inventory in my head before I have sex with my husband. Like, “Sarah, we can do this. It’s fine. This is something that we’ve talked about, we’ve had discussions about this, we feel comfortable that this is something we want to choose to do and explore, and let’s be open to that.” So, yeah. I'm really good at coaching myself now. 35:19 Daniel: Yeah, it sounds like it. Sounds like you’ve come a long way in just three years. I like the other concept you’ve shared about sex drives, desire level. The differences aren’t the problem. Share with the audience what you meant by that.   35:35 Sarah: Differences aren’t the problem. We label ourselves when we first get married [laughs]. Now, like, you know as I’ve learned, not all men are higher desire partners, okay? Right? 35:49 Daniel: Not at all, right. 35:50 Sarah: Right. And so, we are really quick to label who’s higher, who’s lower, you know? And we, there’s a …. do you want me to quote books in here? 36:05 Daniel: Absolutely! Tell your story. Yep. 36:08 Sarah: Okay. One of the books, Passion Paradox, have you heard of that book? 36:13 Daniel: Actually, no, I haven’t read nor have I heard of it.   36:16 Sarah: Okay, I’m trying to think of the author right now, but it was...it’s like, an old book. It was like....it’s old. But anyway, there’s this...he talks about this whole idea of passion. Because, sometimes like, as women, we label ourselves as lower desire, say that we are, right? And we view the partner as the higher desire. But there’s different ways of expressing and showing passion to each other. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be just like a sexual thing. Sometimes, in different seasons of our lives, we kinda ebb and flow, and you know, go from one extreme to another or something. And I think this whole idea that we put labels is unfortunate, because I chose to give myself that label for all those years, and I clung on to it. And I would just view my husband, like, “you just want sex all the time. And I’m just gonna sit here, and just kinda vent to you that I don’t wanna have it, because I’ve already labelled myself that I don’t want it.”   37:30 Daniel: As opposed to learning how to meet the needs of each other.   37:33 Sarah: Yeah, yeah. 37:34 Daniel: I think that theme is so important throughout your book. I refer to it as breaking the culture of sexual silence, and I love that you hit on it throughout the entirety of your book. Especially, I believe, in chapter 14 talking about it. Even if I don’t know a lot about it, talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about everything you know about sex, and become comfortable with it. That is so important. As you learned early on with your mom, and with other friends, you couldn’t talk about it. And that is one of the biggest desire killers and barriers to education. So, learning how to break that culture of silence around sexuality, even when you don’t know fully what you’re talking about, start to share. That’s what we do. As kids, we talk about things we don’t know, and then parents correct us. People inform us. You go into it non-judgmentally, again, another thing that you carry throughout the book. Absolutely wonderful. You want to tell us a little bit about how you...what that was like for you as you realized you’re in this process, you’re learning. What were some of the fears, hesitations, or positive experiences you had with sharing freely your knowledge?   38:45 Sarah: Ok, so, you know I’m reading all these books, right? And consuming everything that I could. And I just, I remember always just like walking out, like, in public, you know, in Target or wherever, and seeing all these women. And I”m like, “oh. If they only knew. oh if they only knew.” Right? [laughs] and there’s a point where…’cause I truly believe I’ve obviously come to a place where I--and you’ve seen this in my book--I’m a realist. Like, I really share the dark sides of me, and my hang-ups and everything, and I’m okay with it. I've come to a place where I don’t have this fear of judgement of what other people might think of me, because I’ve realized that the more I share, the more respect I get from people. And so, as I was reading all these things, and I’m going out into public and I see all these women, and I’m just wondering, “I wonder if she’s like...if she was like me.” Because I’m now, not. I don’t really...it’s hard for me, sometimes, to even take myself back, even three years ago, to where I was. Because I’m so much more happier now. But sometimes i have to take myself there so that I can be, you know, relatable, to other women, right? So, of course in our LDS culture, [laughs] I have definitely … I’ve lost friendships. I’ll be honest.   40:18 Daniel: What do you mean? I think I know what you’re talking about there, because I’ve experience the same, but share with the audience what that means. Just because you’re being passionate and open about sexuality, you lost friends? 40:28 Sarah: Yeah. 40:29 Daniel: What happened there? 40:30 Sarah: Yeah, so...just in small conversations, or I might have written like a post or something on facebook about a book that I was reading. And then it just rubs somebody the wrong way, you know? And I've actually had a few friends who’ve vocally come and told me that they don’t agree with what I’m talking about and learning about. And that’s fine. It was of course hard to hear, ‘cause it’s like a blow. It’s like this form of rejection that you don’t want to ever experience in your life. But at the same time, there was like, 30+ women behind me saying “thank you. I learned so much from you,” you know? And so, it’s just our human nature to cling-on to those one or two people that give you that negative comment, right? But it definitely propelled me to keep sharing, because I know how my life has changed because of it. And my marriage has changed because of it. And I can’t deny it.    41:43 Sarah: So as I’ve opened up about it, and talked to people within my neighborhood or community, like I just know that I am making strides with people. I actually, just yesterday, I had a friend who had finally come around. I’ve been talking to her for like, since I started reading books, and just recently she was like, “Sarah, I think I’m ready.” You know? And you just have to kinda wait for those people to come around, and they will, eventually. And they’ll realize just how powerful this can be, when they can open and be more curious to see what their life can be like if they chose to look at it with a different perspective.    42:34 Daniel: Absolutely.   42:35 Sarah: So yeah. 42:35 Daniel: In other words, you’re not pushing your narrative. 42:36 Sarah: No.   42:38 Daniel: People know what you know.   42:38 Sarah: No, yeah. 42:40 Daniel: Because, you’re open about it. And you’re waiting for them to come and seek you out. 42:43 Sarah: Yeah. 42:44 Daniel: That’s excellent. 42:45 Sarah: Exactly. yeah, just kinda wait for them and whenever they’re ready, I’ll be there with open arms to teach them and to guide them through their own experience. The crazy part is [laughs] I have no desire to be a sex therapist like yourself, or you know, go and be a professor or anything of that nature. I just love learning about it. I feel like, I don’t know, I guess people can kind of resonate more with a girl off the street I guess first, and then I can guide them to therapists or whoever else they need help with, right? Because I obviously don’t have all the tools, but I’m their starting point, you know? And that’s what I love about me being open about it, is that I can be their starting point and then they can move from there to seek more professional help if they need it, you know? 43:41 Daniel: Absolutely. What a wonderful theme that you’ve carried out through the book. I think it’s been wonderfully done, I think you’ve communicated well. Are there...as we wrap up here, is there anything else about the book or your experiences that you feel is important for the audience to know about you, and your journey, or maybe possibly the journey that they’re going through? 44:02 Sarah: Oh yeah, I mean, as you [...] just, the book, in and of itself, it just breaks down so many things. You know, out there in our audience, you  might have someone who feels like they are broken, right? Or, they feel like, that there’s no hope in their marriage. We didn’t even touch on porn, that’s a whole-nother enchilada in and of itself…   44:28 Daniel: So, I… hold off on that, because I--   44:31 Sarah: [laughs]   44:31 Daniel: I love that you refer to porn the way you did in your book, as a compulsion, as a temptation, as a potential device in a marriage or [pauses] divisiveness in a marriage.    44:45 Sarah: Yeah.   44:46 Daniel: And I love the language that you used in there, and I would be interested in exploring that a little more, if you’d like. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it, and why you included it? 44:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, obviously from personal experience, it was not me, it was my husband’s, right? I think it’s just, he actually, it was the [....]  I remember the day, and I’m sure a lot of men and women here can remember the day that their spouse came to them with this news, right? Or they found out in some other way, right? That’ll be a day that you won’t ever forget.    45:24 Sarah: But, that day, he came and approached me, and it was during this time that I had finished writing my first book. And I was, like I said before, I was in a really good place, and just felt pretty good about life because I was working on myself. And I think that’s what’s key here, in this chapter particularly, is, whether man or woman, right? Really focus on, what are you doing in the relationship? What can you do to better yourself, to become a better version of yourself? And that’s kinda where i was at that point, luckily.    46:01 Sarah: And that’s when Trent felt comfortable to actually approach me and tell me about his porn addiction. Because, you know, he had these fears that I would leave him and all these things, right? Like everybody might have. And he came, and he told me, and it was just this, you know, gut-wrenching kind of feeling. And the first question that came into my mind, “what’s wrong with me? Why does he feel like he has to do this? I can’t believe he’s done this. He’s this amazing man, how did porn get a hold of him?” Kind of thing. And so, back then, I was doing a lot of video journaling, and so after he told me, I just was like, “kay, just hold on a second, I need to go into my closet and kinda think about this.”    46:48 Sarah: So, I went to my closet and for ten minutes I just kind of, just like, talked to myself. Like, just basically went through, in my head, what I’d just heard. And, it’s interesting, I still have this video and I treasure it, but...so you’ll notice (well, you won’t notice, because you’re not watching it), but in the first five minutes, I’m just like, processing, like, “why him? Why me?” Everything right? This pity party. And then, the last five minutes, I just kinda make this shift. It was God telling me, “Sarah, he’s a son of God.” And that’s all I heard. That’s all I heard, and I knew that I needed to walk with him in this journey.    47:34 Sarah: I was not to fix him, because I can’t fix him, right? But I can walk with him to, you know, figure out how to help him navigate, you know, and how to get the help that he needed kind of stuff. And so, that was [...] once again, it’s a simple thing, but that was the one thing that really carried me through that experience. Just recognizing that he’s a son of God and together we can work through the porn addiction, and we can come out on top. And we definitely have. And it’s been an incredible experience. But there’s definitely been pain. It hasn’t been easy. But, there’s definitely a light at the end of the tunnel.   48:22 Daniel: A lot of people are listening, saying, “okay, yeah, you just shared he just dumped this big thing on you.” And if I remember right, you even equate pornography to adultery, or cheating, on the relationship, am I remembering correctly? 48:39 Sarah: Yeah. 48:39 Daniel: That’s a very big view to have. One that, generally, is very divisive in a relationship. And you also refer to it as an addiction. And if anybody’s been in my group, they know how sensitive I am about that terminology.    48:54 Sarah: Yeah.   48:54 Daniel: You actually went and learned a lot from Cameron Staley, 48:58: Oh, man. 48:59 Daniel: about mindfulness, which is not an addiction approach, it’s a very mindful approach. 49:03Sarah: Yeah. 49:03 Daniel: Which is very much in harmony with the theme of your book: non-judgemental, non-rigid around these things but being more mindful and self-aware. 49:15 Sarah: Self-awareness is huge, yeah. 49:17 Daniel: And I think that led you to this [...] because usually, the concepts of addiction don’t lead you into the direction that you’re talking about, in fact, it leads you in a very opposite direction. But I love that mindfulness, and fortunately, meeting up with Cameron, or whatever you learned from him, it led you to this idea.   49:34 Sarah: Yeah. 49:35 Daniel: One of the concepts that you shared there was, and I’m gonna put it in my terminology: “I don’t view sex as a punishment or reward, I view it as communcation.” And you talk about there, “yes, it’s not your fault, and you as the wife, you’re not responsible for his behavior. However, why are you punishing him by not giving him sex? Is that your because of your insecurity?” I realize I’m butchering your words, I’m putting in mine.   49:59 Sarah: Yeah. 50:00 Daniel: And correct me if I’m misrepresenting your train of thought there. But, you're saying, “embrace them. Don’t withhold sex because of mabye, your insecurities.”   50:09 Sarah: Yep, that’s the worst thing you could do, is to withhold it.   50:10 Daniel: Absolutely, absolutely. Although, giving them sex, you shouldn’t have this expecation: now, he’s gonna be safe, you know? In fact, I think you pointed that out, if I remember right. 50:20 Sarah: Yes, I did. 50:21 Daniel: You said somethinglike, “okay, I’m gonna give him all”--because some women do that--”I’m gonna give him all the sex he needs so he avoids it.”   50:26 Sarah: Then he won’t even go look, yeah.   50:27 Daniel: And that’s a reward or punishment approach, as opposed to communication and connecting.   50:33 Sarah: Yes. 50:33 Daniel: And so, ironically, taking that other approach of withholding or giving too much, is very much objectification, and divisive in the relationship. It’s not connected. And so I love that you embrace that idea, of “it’s not my responsibility, but I’m not going to miss this opportunity to connect with my partner. Because I view porn in this context”--whatever it is-- “I’m not going to let that get in my way of connecting with my partner.” I thought that was beautiful.   51:02 Sarah: Yeah, just finding that middle ground. I mean, I remember coming home and asking anything I could about porn. Because, I had no idea what that world was like. None. And so, it blew my mind to see, like, wow. I really don’t know anything! But at the same time, like, let’s come together and have conversations to see, like, how we can navigate this new normal. Come to a middle ground to connect. I mean, we uh, this could be a whole-nother podcast. That definitely, that experience...I mean, it didn’t take me on my sex journey, because I found out about this, probably like 5 years ago.    51:51 Daniel: You mean, his use of porn? 51:54 Sarah: Yes, his use of porn. And so, there were still a couple years in between there where I was just trying to like, you know, I’d have [...] our communication was better, it wasn’t the best as it is now, but we were definitely communicating. And I wasn't that one that was like, you know, denying him and like, that kind of thing. Because, I was kind of understanding how, you know, I needed to create this middle ground to see how we can evolve into something better. And so then, when I finally accepted like, “okay, I need to work on my sexuality,” then that took us to a whole-nother level. And he’s been amazing and [pauses], yeah. He doesn’t have those compulsions anymore and even if he does, he comes and talks to me about it, you know? And so, we’ve created a very healthy relationship in regards to porn.    52:52 Daniel: Sarah, that is wonderful. I would actually really love having you on again, at a future time, to talk about that.    52:58 Sarah: Yeah. 53:00 Daniel: Again, the book is Underneath it All...You’re Naked. Wonderful theme throughout the book. I think you did an amazing job with it, and I think the audience would really benefit from it. Thank you so much for coming on.   53:11 Sarah: Thank you. Aw, yeah, it’s been a pleasure. I appreciate you letting me have an opportunity to share my story. 53:18 Daniel: Thank you.   53:18 Sarah: It’s always something I like to talk about [laughs].   53:20 Daniel: Oh, clearly, 53:21 Sarah: It changed my life. Like, literally changed my life.   53:24 Daniel: Yeah. Your journey has been--   53:25 Sarah: Saved me. 53:26 Daniel: amazing. Thank you so much, Sarah. 53:28 Sarah: You’re welcome. [music]  

Jerry Hoepner, a faculty member in the department of Communication Sciences and Disorders at the University of Wisconsin – Eau Claire. I am privileged to introduce today’s guest, Dr. Sarah Northcott. We are fortunate to have a conversation about her work and the application of solutions focused brief therapy and psychological supports to individuals with aphasia.  Dr. Sarah Northcott is a Senior Lecturer in Speech and Language Therapy at both the University of East Anglia, UK, and City, University of London, UK. Her research interests lie in exploring ways to support the emotional and social wellbeing of people living with stroke and aphasia. In 2016 she received the UK Stroke Association Jack and Averil (Mansfield) Bradley Fellowship Award for Stroke Research, which enabled her to lead the SOFIA Trial (Solution Focused brief therapy In post-stroke Aphasia), a feasibility wait-list controlled trial. She also led the qualitative evaluation on the SUPERB Trial, investigating peer befriending for people with aphasia, also funded by the UK Stroke Association.   Take aways: Social networks are wonderful for people with aphasia after their stroke, and these social networks often predict outcomes more than the severity of the stroke. (9:30) It is crucial that speech language therapists receive training on this topic so they feel comfortable stepping into those moments when there is a need for psychosocial support, or at least recognize when they need extra support in doing so. Solution focused brief therapy is designed to help people build change. With training, it is important that speech therapists transition out of the “fixer mindset” and the thought that they need to fix everything, in order to successfully provide this psychosocial support.  Paper and pen, or objects from the individual’s environment that they are comfortable using, are the most effective visual communication methods when going into these unpredictable conversations. Always make the most of people’s strengths and talents and focus on what is already going well. The client is the expert in their own life!     Jerry: Greetings from across the pond, Sarah. I'd say good morning, but perhaps good afternoon for you. Really nice talk with you today.    Sarah: It's lovely, thank you very much to be inviting me as part of your podcast series. That was really lovely to be here.    Jerry: Absolutely, our privilege. I'm really excited to dive into this important conversation again, a topic near and dear to my heart as well. And before we get started, can you share just a little bit about your mentors and collaborators and kind of how you found your path, so to speak.   Sarah: So, I first trained as a speech therapist about 20 years ago now, and it was when I was starting to work with adults who had a stroke for the first time, I guess, I started to realize how difficult it was to, how your life can be turned upside down by having the aphasia and how isolated some of the people I was working with were as well. And it was around that time that Katerina Hilari from City University contacted me and asked me if I'd like to do an MSC looking at social support for people with chronic aphasia. And that kind of tied in well with what I was noticing in my clinical work. And I think I was really struck by that project, I found it really exciting to be working on that project. And it also felt important because I could sort of see the clinical relevance from the work I was doing. I guess I'm very grateful to Katerina, because she sort of opened that whole door for me. And it was really Katerina, who encouraged me to do the PhD. the PhD was looking, taking that work forward, looking more generally at social support after a stroke. So, for people with and without aphasia, and what social support really mattered to them, what value it had, what tends to happen to their friendships. And yeah, I feel very lucky that she was had a lot of belief in me and really encouraged me to do that. And after my PhD, she was still there for me. So, I have quite a difficult season, because when you finish your PhD to know quite what to do next. And yeah, she's always been incredibly supportive and has been really there for me sort of had a belief that the work we were doing was important and valuable, and that I had something to contribute. So that was, yes, she's like, I really respect her academic judgments. And she's been a really big part of my life, I guess, the 15 years that we've done some lovely work together. And that's been really rewarding. And I guess more recently with the SOFIA fellowship project I've had, as well as Katerina, three other supervisors, so a mental health nurse, and two psychologists and I think, I there was real value for me and being supervised by people who weren't speech therapists. So, I really learned from those with different perspectives and what they were bringing to it. So, one of them Shirley Thomas, who sort of is leading the column base trial campaign for activation therapy for people with aphasia. So of course, she brought a huge wealth of knowledge about running trials with people with aphasia, which is not the easiest thing to do, assessing him for his knowledge about mental health nursing. And I found that really helpful to get those perspectives and put that into the research. And so, many lovely people to work with. I don't think I've ever felt alone with it. And if anyone out there is a speech therapist or speech therapy student and wondering about research, I would say, it's really important to have a team around you because it's not always the easiest thing. There are not backs when you get rejections and then things don't go to plan. So, have people around you who believe in you, and will support you through that and support you not just for the academic side, but sort of quite holistically as well. So, I think I've been, I've been very lucky with the support I've had around. And I've certainly I've not done any of this work alone, it's always been a very much a team thing. And I'm very grateful for the team I've had around me. So, if anyone of my supervisors have happened to listen to this, a big thank you to all of them.   Jerry: That's really well said in terms of the importance of just having that team that work around you, for sure. And really a powerful story about Katerina reaching out to you, that must have just been really a great moment and ongoing moments to encourage you with your PhD and beyond. So, I agree some definitely lovely work that two of you and others have done together regarding psychosocial effects following aphasia. So, I just love that whole body of work.    Sarah: Yeah, and I feel very grateful to the school that everyone has given me with that. And I would say that again, I guess that's another thing to pull out of that if someone's thinking about whether to go into research, it is so important to do research in an area that you're quite passionate about, and you really believe in because it's tough doing research. So, I think you have to have a real motivation. And I think that's kind of going as well as that as a support team to have a kind of belief in the projects.   Jerry: Absolutely. And it's really evident in the work that you do and the connections that you have to real individuals with aphasia. So, it definitely shows through, and again, those interdisciplinary connections you mentioned, Shirley Thomas, and she's done so much work in this area. And that's been powerful.   Sarah: You know and I think I think it's been really interesting to work with a psychologist coming from a different background and a different perspective on research. And I've definitely learned loads from them, it's been really helpful.   Jerry: But an excellent place to start. Just to kind of roll back the clocks a little bit, I think many of our listeners are familiar with your work on the stroke social network scale, and the social networks and supports for people with chronic aphasia that you've done with Katerina Hilari. So, I think that is a really nice place to start in terms of just thinking of where you've come from. In the 2018 article in the International Journal of Language and Communication Disorders, you identified several barriers to accessing appropriate psychological support for individuals with aphasia. And likewise, in your 2017 article, in that same journal, you found that most speech language pathologists or in the UK, speech language therapists, lack the confidence to implement the appropriate psychological supports for people with aphasia. Of course, that's really been shown by --- and colleagues all around the world, but it's just such a prominent issue. Can you talk a little bit about how all of this kind of led into your current research regarding solution focus brief therapy?   Sarah: Of course, and thank you for reading these papers.   Jerry: Absolutely.   Sarah: So yeah, do you want me to take it back from the beginning for the sort of social support stroke social network scale and then work from there?    Jerry: Sure, that'd be fine. That'd be great.    Sarah: Yes, in my PhD I was looking at social support, and one of the outputs of that was the stroke social network scale. And it is something that Katerina's done recently is set up a repository of different resources from City University, so just if people are interested in some of the work we've done at City to go to the current website. And you'll find it there, you'll find that scale there, you'll find her cycle 39 scale, and we're trying to build up that repository. So, that's just a nice resource for anyone in the world to tap into. And I think, yes, in my PhD reverb, we're looking at what happens over time. And it was one of the themes that came through was that social networks are quite wonderful after a stroke. And they seem to be particularly vulnerable for people with aphasia. And that seems to be a really predictive factor of who's going to maintain a strong social network, a stronger factor, even then stroke severity or disabilities. So, that was a quite striking finding. And I think I felt very privileged in my PhD because part of it was doing questionnaires of people over time, but then also doing qualitative interviews of people around about a year post stroke, so I had a year of my life walking around London doing these interviews of people and listening to people's stories. People are very generous with their times to share how they found the stroke, what was important to them? And yeah, and exploring with them all the value of connection and what that meant to them after the stroke. And also, we could see from the quantitative data that people were losing friends. We didn't mean, there was a chance to explore with people what's happening, what does this mean to you? And it was, you know, so many reasons that people gave of why they were seeing their friends less, you know, they weren't going to same activities that they used to. So, they didn't see those friends in those contexts anymore. They were exhausted, and they didn't have the energy to initiate contact. With a disability, they were housebound, and how you host and your lack of reciprocity there. And of course, the phase, you're in a phase of disrupting the dynamics of friendships, and a big theme that came through as well, there was the close link between this sense of feeling a little bit withdrawn and cutting us off a little bit. So, the link between mood and friendship loss, and it's like a vicious cycle, I guess, of becoming withdrawn, not going out, and then getting low in mood and then becoming even more withdrawn. And I think some of those stories affected me quite a lot. And at the end of my PhD, I was wanting to say, well, what intervention could we have that could break that vicious cycle and make it more of a virtuous cycle? To encourage people to, or what do people need to be able to feel they can start to reengage again and start to live the life they want to live with the stroke and aphasia? So, I think that was the motivation for me at the end of the PhD to think it's quite a big thing to go from observation research into intervention research. I don't think I've quite realized actually how big a thing it was and how much I was undertaking it as a way of learning. But I think that was my motivation to start thinking about interventions. And so, this was five years ago. And at that point, there was very little in terms of the research evidence base for effective psychological therapy for people with aphasia. And Shirley's lovely studies, comm study, I wasn't the basis to her lovely systematic review quite recently. And yes, its basis is still pretty thin and has some really nice research coming through. So, there's all the lovely stuff in Australia and in the world, but it's still, I would say, I was surprised how many psychological stroke research studies were excluding people with aphasia on the grounds of their language disability. So that was quite motivating for me to think, as a speech language therapist, what can be our role? What therapies might work well, so that was nice to start playing. And then as you say, before I went into doing the solution focused brief therapy trial, I did some work, listening to speech therapists. So, we did an online survey, and then we did some focus group analysis and had an experience trusting the psychological well-being of people with aphasia. And, yeah, that was, so it was really striking that speech therapists, they really want to do their best. And they were doing some lovely listening, and they're setting up groups, and they were telling us all the things that they were doing. But there was a sense of, actually, this is not an area where you feel confident. And this is not an area that we feel particularly more trained or supported in. And we have this sort of unease that if we spend a session listening to someone’s distress, should we spend that session, doing language goals, you know, was that the right use of our time. And that particularly felt uneasy when they felt that it was all on their shoulders. And if they got out of that debt, they had nowhere to turn to for extra support, when they felt that the management and their team have to be valuing that work, supporting them in that work, where they didn't feel they had the training. They were time pressured, and conversely, in teams where they felt that there was that sense of holistic team culture, and it was valid, it was easier if they had some training. And particularly they had such a support. So, I think what might work particularly nicely was whether there was a mental health professional psychologist within the team, with a kind of opened door policy who they felt they could knock on the door of and ask them for advice as they went along. And if they started to go down to their desk, they could do joint work together or handover. And where they felt they could get informed advice and support with it. That seems quite enabling to speech therapists to feel that this is something that they could address and feel comfortable addressing.    Jerry: Wow, that's terrific. I want to go back to just a couple of things that you said. That idea that social networks predict outcomes more than stroke severity, and then that cycle between changes in mood and withdrawal and how that kind of feeds itself. And I think that last point, when you were talking about Speech Language therapists, that training, right, just not feeling comfortable, but when they get that training, they feel more comfortable and are able to step into those moments when there's a need for that psychosocial support, or at least recognize when they need outside help as well. So.   Sarah: Yes, I think it was quite interesting for people was just saying one of the things that they got from training and experience was, when they complete it, when they were newly qualified, they had the sense that they needed to fix everything, there needed to be solution and quite anxious with situations where they couldn't fix it. And with training they kind of reversed this around to thinking sometimes it's really very good just to be there with someone or just to listen and that's valuable in itself. And they thought they had some skills to sit back on enabling them to do that. So, listening and being there with someone when they’re distracted, they felt more comfortable out on their own.    Jerry: Yeah, I agree. And making that shift out of that fixer mindset I think is a really important part of providing that type of support, for sure. Absolutely. So terrific introduction to this. Can you talk a little bit about why speech language therapists should consider the psychosocial impact of living with aphasia and kind of what their roles are in terms of addressing psychological well-being, psychosocial well- being?   Sarah: Sure. So, what came through in the focus group project was the sense that often people with aphasia, that speech therapists are meeting, have sort of been trapped in this world of aphasia, and they got a real value from having a speech therapist facilitate them, explaining what it was like to be them, what it was like to live with the aphasia. And the speech therapists have skills of listening and facilitation, and that's really valuable. So, I would say that for someone with aphasia who has more severe distress, more severe mental health issues, I think speech therapists have a role in facilitating and accessing mental health professionals as well. And what we found in the focus group project was speech therapists we spoke to were concerned that people with more severe aphasia, it was very hard for them to access psychological health and mental health professionals who understandably found it very challenging to adjust their psychological therapies for someone with more severe aphasia. And I think also what we found in the UK, and I don't know if this translates to the US, but in UK near the stroke, so in your acute stage, just post discharge from hospital, psychologists working in those teams more like, sometimes like it was just like in ASD so there was quite spectrum where the speech therapist was very disappointed that those people with aphasia aren't suitable candidates for therapy because of their language disability. But there are also psychologists in this stroke special services who are skilled working with aphasia, we're happy to be joint working with the speech therapists, we're happy to work with the family members around the person with aphasia. But when the people with aphasia went into the mainstream mental health services, then there were more issues around mental health professionals struggling with the aphasia. So, I think in that situation, the speech therapists have a real role in supporting someone with aphasia and accessing those services. So, I can completely see that as a speech therapist listening here thinking like not really wanting to go and get lots of specialist training and delivering pre psychological therapies is not that I see my world what I want to do, but I would say that it is important for speech therapists to not undervalue their own skills of listening and what that can be for someone with aphasia, or underestimate that we can have a sort of bridging role and helping people access psychological services. And another thing I'd add to that is that, you know, really listening to someone who is having a hard time, it's not easy, and I have some sympathy with speech therapists who are starting to learn to project, and starting to feel anxious. And I would say that it's important to feel supported in that work and so there's someone that you can go to, and people talk about peer support a lot and how valuable that was. But to find some way of feeling reassured that you're doing the right thing, sometimes as well, that it is the right thing to sit there with someone who are distressed. I would say, I'm a really big believer on making sure you've got support systems for the therapists as well.   Jerry: Absolutely. Just to touch on a couple of those points. I completely agree that speech language pathologists, speech language therapists, have a real unique skill set that allows us to facilitate, to support that communication and hopefully support expression of, you know, those psychosocial kind of needs and concerns. And I also think that we're really positioned well, to facilitate and support those interactions, as you said, with psychologists, and perhaps, you know, training, collaboration, kind of mutual bidirectional training in terms of giving them the skills to support communication and expression. And certainly vice versa, them kind of sharing their knowledge, those psychosocial and psychological supports as well. So…   Sarah: I think that joint working is a really lovely model and way of thinking about structures, isn't it? I mean, if you haven't got the psychologist to sit next to them, it's much easier. And there were definitely people who spoke about psychologist is in a different team, it's much harder to get a hold of them. And there just work pushes. I mean, not all stroke services in the UK at all have access to a psychologist and some of them are very thinly spread. And speech therapists are very thinly spread as well. So then, yeah, there's logistical difficulties there too.   Jerry: Yeah, absolutely. And we definitely have the same kind of issues in the states as well. In terms of access to those services, just so many means at this point across the entire population, so…   Sarah: Yes, this current situation is particularly extreme as well. Yes.   Jerry: Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Can you talk a little bit about the challenges of making those psychological, psychosocial therapies accessible, when someone has aphasia? Kind of the adaptations and types of communication supports you need to kind of weave in?   Sarah: Yeah, that's a really good question. The psychological therapy is traditionally they're language based on the kind of skills that you will be taught in a counseling training, of open questions and don't always work so well, when someone has aphasia. So, speaking, psychologists have to say, well, you need a little bit more skill, that some of the tools that you have don't work so well. So, I think there's a little bit of thinking there. And, yes, I think it's helpful to talk about my fellowship project. So that's the SOFIA Trial. And that's looking at adapting the solution focused brief therapy, so that it is successful for people with aphasia. With that trial, we had an aphasia advisory groups, and it was a lovely group of people with aphasia to advise us on it, and they were very, they advised us very strongly that we should see if we could make it accessible for people with severe aphasia. And I remember the time being a little anxious about this, but I couldn't really argue them, they had a point and was saying people with severe aphasic probably need psychological support more than anybody else, and so often excluded, even in the face of your trials. So, see what you can do, you're a speech therapist, you've got training in psychological therapies, we'll see what you can do. So, we ran a little pilot with people with very severe aphasia. And it was challenging, it was really challenging. Adapting solution focused brief therapy for people with severe aphasia. So, they had receptive and comprehension difficulties. And at the end of this pilot, we got a big thumbs up, though, they said, "this therapy does work, you shouldn't leave people with severe aphasia." So, we did. So, we did include people with severe disabilities. And in fact, I think it's 43% of our participants at securities union. So, we thought about this a lot, for three years now. I'm very happy to share my thinking with you on how we adapt solution focused brief therapy for people with severe aphasia if you'd like me to keep talking.   Jerry: I would love that. That would be terrific. And before you go on, I just wanted to make a couple of notes. You have a 2016 paper about that trial, excuse me, the pilot of that approach.   Sarah: Yes, I mean, this came as quite a surprise to me as a clinician, all the different stages of intervention. So, we've initially did a very tiny proof of concept study with five people who had mild to moderate aphasia. And I think the aim of that trial was just "does it work at all?" And perhaps a more personal level, "Do I like this therapy approach?" And then the little pilot has talked about the severe things yet that's not been published. That's internal pilot within the SOFIA project. I should really write that up at some point, but that's not been published. So yes, that was current work with people with severe aphasia before we do the trial. So yeah, there's been quite a lot of stages before we went into a feasibility trial. And as something that I'm particularly proud of is that we did include people with severe aphasia. And I can add that one of the things we're looking at is do the other different patterns in results in people with severe aphasia or mild aphasia, and we don't think that there particularly are. We think people with severe aphasia also benefited from the therapy. So we're really pleased. It is a different sort of therapy though I would say. So solution focused brief therapy is as traditionally, really linguistically quite complex. So there's cognitively complex as well, there's a lot of question forms, which are sort of hypothetical, conditional features and the other person's perspective. And if you go on a training course, I think most of the questions will seem like they're not really going to work that well with someone with aphasia. And a lot of the tools seem very based in language and very inaccessible, to be honest. So it was, I think what we did with SOFIA was we stretched back to think what are the core assumptions underpinning this approach? And then can we build up in a way that's more linguistically accessible? So, there was quite a lot of taking out solution focused questions and thinking, how can we make this simpler, and then sort of the other way of building up from assumptions? So that sounds really abstract. So, if I sort of give some examples. So, an assumption might be, a solution focused assumption might be that everybody has strengths and talents and skills, even though they're not yet quite aware of them. There are lots of solution focused tools to help elicit people really start to notice those strengths and skills and talents. And one of the things you might do to start a follow up session is say, you know well what have you been pleased to notice about yourself in the last week, so it starts to help people notice what's going well, what can they be pleased about, and I think what I would quite often do with someone with severe aphasia, as a follow up session I might, is have some way, visual way of representing the time. So, they knew the timeframes or looking at their calendar together. And I'll just say, "What are you proud of?" And we'd write down proud, maybe the gesture, and then we would just list five things they were proud of. And that was conceptually, quite straightforward. And then it was easy in speech therapy skills to facilitate them coming back with them, what they've been proud of. So, and it might take a whole, it was super exciting that, you know, if someone was linguistic, didn't have aphasia, that kind of little bit of conversation might take three minutes, five minutes, but for someone with aphasia, it might take an entire session to think of well what are five things that they've been proud of since I last saw you? And I remember one gentleman, he had very severe aphasia, not very much language at all. And he, he went off and he came back with this little wooden stool that he bought. And he, through gesture, he explained that he used this tool to help with his, and he was gardening with his tomato plants on his tiny little balcony. And it was explained with no language that it was just right, because he stopped getting backache, he didn't have to bend over. And then he explained through gesturing and looking at the stool that it was it was a peaceful story. I mean, it was it was a tiny stool. And he explained that he bought it from the local market. And he explained with his purse that he bartered it down, and it was actually only cost him 10 pounds, which is not very much money. And it was functional, it was light, it was the perfect height to stop getting backaches when he gardened his tomato plants. And it was beautiful. It was a really beautiful item. And if you got anyone else to just come down to the local pawn shop, and bought a little plastic stool, he had the kind of, it was just this lovely story that he did something about him that he'd been able to share with me, this little tiny incident in his life of buying this stool that he'd done over the last week, his gardening. And I think it was giving him that space to expand on these little details of his life that he felt proud of, and it was making a space. So, there wasn't very much language involved in that conversation at all. He didn't, there wasn't very much language in terms of my questions, there wasn't very much language in terms of how he answered them. And it probably took him, I don't know, 15 minutes to explain to me about this stool and what it meant to him. Maybe he didn't have very many chances, the rest of his life to expand on those little details of who he was and why this was important to him. So, sometimes I used to think, gosh, it's quite a watered down version of solution focused brief therapy, I'm doing, but there's some quite sophisticated questions and tools that I'm not able to use. And we would tear it back down to sort of this quite essential things. But somehow, it seemed to be quite empowering to have people feel that someone had noticed them, and that these conversations help people feel that someone had noticed what was special about them. And that helped them perhaps notice for themselves what was special about them. Sorry, that was a quite long winded answer.   Jerry: No, absolutely. I just think that's a fabulous illustration of, you know, the support that speech language therapists can provide in that context to facilitate all of that communication. So, you said this is a guy with very little verbal communication. And yet, that's a really complex story that you were able to elicit and really speaks to why, you know, we're well positioned, so to speak, to provide these kinds of supports as well, I just want to make a couple of notes. Referring back to that 2016 pilot, you have some examples of the language that typical solutions, focused therapy would use, you know, the best analogy I could give was, you know, some of those questions are a paragraph long, so to speak, and you've kind of pared that down to a single, you know, less syntactically complex sentence that allows those types of responses and that certainly all of the communication supports to get there in terms of expression.   Sarah: Yes, so at City University, there's a clinical linguist called Lucy Dipper. I do remember having a lovely session with her. And I said, look, I've got these questions, they don't work at all, and then that was quite nice to tap into kind of a linguist's attitude and she was sort of talking through how we could simplify. So that was, and that's kind of what I like about research, sometimes there's all these different angles. So, there's the kind of interpersonal sort of meeting with participants, but then there's the kind of more intellectual thing of how do we simplify this language when you first meet someone. And you might typically say in the first session, you know, this is really quite posing, I'm with your best friend, what would they say, which would tell you that these sessions have been a useful concept they see and know these questions go on, as you say, for a very long time. And we went through question by question thinking how to make them a bit simpler. So, in that case, the very first session, very sort of an opening out trying to explore what's into someone, what do they want to focus on in the sessions? I might write down, you know, we're having six sessions and write down six, six visits. Say, what, what are you hoping for? And then write down hopes as a gesture. And that's a much simpler way of asking someone than some of the typical solution focused. And then what we did when if that was, that's still a very open question, and quite hard for someone with very severe aphasia to answer so, we then we borrowed, like, highlights from everything we could find. So, we borrowed from talking maps. So, I don't know how much talking maps are used in the US, but this is where you, okay? So, he literally goes like here's a doormat, and you have all these cuts. So, we took the doormat idea, and we borrowed from all the research across the world about what it means to live well with aphasia, we got about 12 constructs, things like family, friends, competence, going out. And we thought we would do a scaling that was the sort of not to 10 at the top. Then we would ask people to place these different constructs on the scaling map so how they felt things were going and mostly people even with very severe aphasia were able to do this relatively okay. And then we were to say, what's important to move up from that? And that was relatively, it was very visual, you know, it was literally taking a card and saying, well, the card that I really want to move is this card. I want this card to move up. And it was a surprise, sometimes you'd expect to be sometimes in terms of a card that was already quite high, that was the thing they wanted. And that was I mean, that was just a real start point for the conversation. And I spent hours creating pictures to support these conversations. And what I actually found was most useful when I went along was just paper and pen, because it's so fluid and flexible. And if you don't know where the conversation is going to go, which you don't really with solution focused brief therapy, so very much following on from what I still recommend what they say. So, you can't really know in advance what the session is going to look like. Paper and pens and objects in the environment and just sort of being creative. So, making sure they have their own paper and pen, so there was a sort of an equality there. I did a lot of drawing and terrible drawing, I did a lot of drawing and sessions, and then making use of whatever they had that they were comfortable using. So especially these days, with smartphones just being amazing, and there was this gentleman who prior to his stroke, he used to go to art galleries, but it was only after a stroke that he learned to paint. And we had some lovely sessions with him putting up various paintings on his phone and showing me. Although there was a lady with severe aphasia, where during the week, she would take photos and things that she wanted to share with me because she was pleased about. So, she would take photos of the various meals she'd cook during the week, and she would show me on her smartphone. So, we kind of, again, that's free speech therapy isn't it, that's what speech therapists do all over the world, you make the most of the skills that the person with aphasia has. And it just goes, I just love it when you get to a stage where you don't actually notice that someone has aphasia anymore, you are just having a conversation, and it just happens to look slightly different from the conversation if they didn't have aphasia. But yeah, and that's a part of solution focusing as well, to make the most of it, to capitalize on people's strengths and what's going on.   Jerry: Absolutely, what a great description. I just want to highlight some of those things that you talked about just a, you know, a toolbox for facilitating or supporting that communication within that solutions focused intervention. So, you talked about the talking maps, just a fabulous tool, and you even mentioned personal modifications in photos that you added, the rating scales, obviously really powerful written choice. You mentioned earlier, writing down those key words, doing some great drawings of your own. Yeah, and then phones are just so powerful, you know, so easy to pull out and just shoot. So that really speaks to how you get at all of that language exchange when you are talking with someone with severe aphasia or with, you know, difficulty expressing.   Sarah: And I guess we kind of, we pulled on the bits of solution focused brief therapy, which are more visual. So, scales are often used in traditional therapy. So, as solution focused therapy would have, say, if someone really established that what they really were hoping to focus on was confidence, then for a scale you might have, ten would be they're feeling really confident, and zero is the opposite. So, solution focused, you would tend to invite someone to place themself on that scale. So, if someone doesn't have aphasia, you tend to do all this scaling work verbally. But I would reach for my scale and I would do all you know, write one to 10 on the scale, and then I would tend to write confidence as a key word at the top of the scale and then they would, after they place themselves on whatever is true. What I quite like about solution focused therapy with rating scales is that use that then as a tool to help elicit what's already working well. So, you would spend quite a lot of time then, "well how come you're a three and not a two?" So what score, and then listing is lovely, because it's quite conceptually easy. And it's a quite a natural way of writing down key words. So, I tend to spend quite a lot of time looking at what's already going well. And then it's very nice and visual to just then have a little area again, one step up to four. So, what does four look like? Again, these are very open questions. And sometimes, you know, you have to really scaffold much more than you would do if someone didn't have aphasia, might try different options with a partner as well. You know you get to know what people want, and what works for them, and some people found these very open questions hard to see how to scaffold it. But I still think that there's something quite nice about these visual scales, what does this look like when you start to scale?   Jerry: Absolutely, really powerful tool. And like you said, those comparisons of, "why weren't you a three? Why are you a four? What would it take to get to a five?" Open ended, but gives them the direction to say what they want to say, rather than us constraining that. So just to kind of follow that track of kind of delivering focused brief therapy, and then maybe some of the challenges that you encountered? Can you share a little about that, your experience?   Sarah: Would it help if I talked a little bit about what is solution focused brief therapy?    Jerry: Yeah, why don't we start there? Yeah.    Sarah: It's just one of many psychological therapies. And I have to say, I think my start point for the project was, was probably just, I want to show that it's possible to adapt psychological therapy, and I want to look at the role of speech and language therapists, and I've happened to do it through solution focused brief therapy. I think solution focused brief therapy aligns quite well with my speech therapists’ sort of values of what they want from their work. And it's, in the UK is already quite used by speech therapists. And I think they find it's an approach that they can integrate with other language therapy work, they quite like it. So that was one of my reasons. And also, I had a little bit of training in it before I started my PhD. So, it was sort of on my mind, a therapy approach that I liked. So, to tell you a little bit about it, it originated in America, a family psychological therapies, and it started with Steve De Shazer observing, was one of the originators of the approach, observing family therapy sessions. And he noticed that most of the time these sessions were spent looking at the problem. And just occasionally a bit of therapy time is spent looking at exceptions to the problem. And his observation was that when session time was looking at these exceptions, it seemed to be associated with more progress. And that was kind of the seed of the therapy approach. So, there's a strong part of the therapy approach that says, well, whatever the problem is, there are usually times when the problem is less bad or not even there, and if we look at those times, what's happening then, perhaps that can be the building blocks to help people move forward. So, I would say as an approach, it's less interested in diagnosing problems and looking at problems, and it's more interested in noticing where people want to move towards, where they're wanting to get to. And it's less interested in problem solving and looking at what's going well, what's already going in the right direction that we can capitalize on. And I think, for me, a quite an important part of the approach is this idea that the client is the expert in their own life, not us as therapists, but it's for the client to know what's important to them, what matters to them, where they want to get to. And it's our role to help them work at how they want to move forward. So, that sounds quite straightforward. But actually, it's really quite hard to sort of sit on your hands and not give people advice and not stop to give people advice and tell people what to do. We'll not give people suggestions, but just to, to trust that they will have the resources within them to find their own way forward, so it's our role perhaps to facilitate that happening. And I think there's quite, there's a slight misconception, I think about solution focused brief therapy, that it's a very half glass full approach, and it's not really noticing, not giving space to the problems. And to be fair, sometimes that is how it's applied. And I think I felt really strongly in SOFIA that wasn't what I wanted. From my experience of delivering the approach, I think when someone's had a stroke, and you're a speech therapist, often, sometimes you're the first person ever really had the chance to really talk through what that's like. And I think that type of acknowledgement was always an important part of the approach for me. So, there's a sense of, some people have described those particular solution focused writer who does talks about one particular acknowledgement and one certain possibility, but I've always really liked that as the kind of metaphor for a sense of spending session time really listening to the person and being there with the person and then sort of shifting away when you feel it's right to think about possibility, and helping them to work out how they can live with it. And having belief and hope that it is possible to live with it too. So, there's sort of oscillating between the acknowledgement and possibility and I think that's been, well for me that's an important part of the therapy that we delivered in the trial. This sense of giving people space to talk about what's hard. And I think unless someone's feeling that you're really listening to that, it's quite hard for them, perhaps to want to trust you to make, to talk about how they're going to move forwards. Jerry: Yeah, terrific. Just to highlight some of those key points, that idea that client is the expert in their life and how they live their life. And we really need to inhibit giving our own solutions because they have the capability of coming up with their own. And I just love those two frames, acknowledgement and possibility. So, yeah, terrific. What kind of challenges have you run into in terms of delivering that? Sarah: So, there were three therapists delivering the therapy in the project and I was actually just reading through the interviews quite recently with the other two therapists. So yeah, I had lots of different hats on in this project, which is quite interesting. I think what was positive was that they found a very enjoyable therapy approach, delivering a rewarding and I thought it was feasible for speech therapist to deliver it. I think that where it was more challenging was, I think I found couples work more challenging when I was working with the couples. And I think for me myself, because I have had high quality training in solution focused brief therapy and psychological therapy. And I think for me, I really benefited from that additional training. I think it is you know, we're not couples’ therapists. I think you can feel uneasy going into a session working with a couple where there is a sort of disharmony. So, I think maybe I sort of extra support for therapists in that situation. I think the therapy approach can work quite well, while I think it is challenging. I think the other thing that's challenging is when there's more severe distress. So, in the fellowship project, people could take part whether or not, whatever their skills and developing skills. So, there was a lot of people actually in the project who had a very high developing skills when we started the project, which is quite interesting because the therapy approach is really designed for people with high, you know it was designed helping to make change in other people who didn't really want to make the change happen to everyone which had its own challenges. But the people who were very distressed, I think there was a sense that they needed some real time support to help them to handle that and feel reassured that if someone was really that concerned about their mental health, that they have somebody to turn to. And I think that's really important that we're speech therapists, were not mental health professionals. And if you're working with someone, you think that, yeah, he's got mental health issues that you're concerned about to know that you've got back up somehow and you've got someone that you, it's just not all on your shoulders. So, I think that was a challenge. As I said, this is a challenge that we hadn't anticipated, that there would be people in the project who were really content in themselves, that they found a way to live with their life and they're taking part in the project because they were curious and wanted to contribute to research. And so, they did the therapy with us. And the therapy is designed to help people build change. And these are people who felt a way to live. They didn't really want to be making change. But there was one lady I worked with, a lovely, lovely, lovely lady and by the end of therapy, her first therapy session said, you know what, you seem to be, you know, you found this lovely way of living. Do you want me to come back to do the other five sessions? And she was very keen that I did. And she'd taken part in the project, it was her right to have these sessions. So, she had all six sessions. And then I guess, well, they were very special sessions. We very much sort of more future focus, looking at how you want to be shifting your life going forward wasn't really that much of a thing for her because she didn't. She was very frail and elderly, but she found a way to live with her things in her life. And so, we did a lot of time noticing everything that she was later a very special person. And I remember those were quite profound sessions really, I felt there was a real connection that she wasn't looking to make change. And whether it's quite hard in terms of the project, talking to people in the project who don't want to make change. This clinical trial is all about making change. But I think sometimes there is a value in conversations which don't necessarily lead to change, but there is something about the connection there that's important. Jerry: Absolutely. Just kind of affirming the path that you're on. And like you said yourself, that human connection definitely may not measure the same way, but definitely important. When you were talking about that idea of people that have clinician’s kind of having that back up, it just kind of reminded me of Ian Kneebone's stepped care model and how that is to know, you know, when you're kind of, when you need to hand it off or at least collaborate with someone else for those higher level needs for sure. Can we talk a little bit about the SOFIA trial and kind of where that played in? Sarah: Yes, of course. So, the SOFIA trial was the feasibility randomized control trial and so is underpowered to definitively answer, is this therapy approach effective? So, the questions instead that we're asking from is, is this going to be feasible to scale up into a definitive full scale trial. So, we look at can the approach do this okay? Can we retain people within the project, if we do the assessments right, if we've got the training and support for the clinicians right? Is the therapy approach acceptable? Is it acceptable to deliver this as speech therapists? So, these are the sort of questions. And we recruited 32 people, half of them were randomized into the immediate intervention group. And we had to weight this design so half of them receive the intervention at six months. So, this is a group of 32 people. And in the end, two people withdrew. So, we have 30 people stay to the end of the trial and received therapy. And it was mixed methods. So, we interviewed all 30 of them. So it was, it was very interesting. And it's not so much about you know, have do people with aphasia experience receiving a psychological intervention. So that was a really interesting interview to read and it's quite an exciting stage. We've finished the trial and we were very lucky in the sense that we did our final assessment visits before COVID. And it's a bit poignant reading the interviews because it makes you wonder how people are over the last few months. But yes, so we're at the stage where we've pretty much finished all the analysis now. So, we're just about to start submitting. I don't know if you'd like me to share some of the... Jerry: I was going to say, can we get a little sneak peek maybe before those papers come out? Sarah: Yeah, that would be my pleasure. So, in terms of feasibility outcomes, since it's a feasibility trial, we were really pleased that the primary comparison point, the six months randomization and at that point we collected outcome measures from 30 to 32 people. So, 97 percent, which has really exceeded our expectations. And in terms of people adhering to therapy, so two people withdrew, and so out of 30 people who received the therapy, 29 of them received all six sessions, and one person received five. And to adhere, researchers said they needed to receive at least two, so all good. We recruited on time and on target. And I think there was, we were lucky, and we had a nice buy in from our sights, and I'm so grateful to our sights. And I think they kind of, the speech therapists I they were just really pleased to have a project that they could refer in people with severe aphasia. So, they were very supportive. And, yes, in terms of sort of any outcome measures, primary outcome measures, it seems to work fine. We have minimal missing data. So, thumbs up in terms of the feasibility outcomes, which is so lovely. In terms of the qualitative data, yeah, overwhelmingly the participants liked it. So, I think we can say it was a highly acceptable therapy. There were some kind of things that came through in terms of what they valued about the therapy; they valued having someone notice their achievements and what was their successes, they valued being able to have someone listen to them talk about their hopes and what they were hoping for, for in the future, they valued being able to share their experiences and their distress and have someone listen to them, and they valued connection and companionship. Some of them said one of the best things in it was having fun, having a laugh with a therapist. And that's something I really liked and that's what I really valued. And it came through as this really big thing, their relationship with the therapist, and how that was important when you're going to be a part of therapy for them. In terms of changes, not everyone was wanting to make change. But people talked about you know we have some nice things in terms of feeling better in themselves, in terms of sort of being more able to talk to family and friends, going out a little more. And then we sort of sectored people into four groups in terms of how they respond to therapy. So, they were one group we said was the changed group. So, these are the group of people who the therapy came at a really good time for them. Just constantly it had come at a time when they were in need of some kind of, not a need, but it really benefited them having this therapy approach. It led to sort of meaningful impact for them in their lives. And that was about a third of the group. And then there were two small groups of about five people in each group. There was one group where they called the complementary group, where they were on an upward trajectory, they were making a lot of progress, And the therapy, the research project therapy, was one small part that and I knew that they probably would make an upward projection anyway, but it was a positive thing and it helped them on their way. But we called it complemental. And then there was another little group of about five people that we called discordance. So, they were people who the therapy was misaligned, they liked the therapy and they like their therapist generally, but the therapy was misaligned of what they were looking for. So, they wanted language therapy. They wanted empowerment work. They wanted someone. We weren't at the end of the day psychologists, we were speech therapists, we could have done many therapies with them and that's what they wanted. We did solution focused brief therapy. So, there was a sort of mismatch and they were a bit you know, they wanted exercise. And it's frustrating to kind of think in clinical services, you could have given them that and done solution focused brief therapy around the edges perhaps, would have perhaps part of it for some of them is coming to terms with what they could and couldn't do with the aphasia and that. And then there was another group. It was about a third of the group who we called the connected group, and they weren't looking to make changes from the therapy. They weren't coming into the project trying to, with the idea, and our whole concept of change to come from us as researchers really. They came out of curiosity of contribution and what they really valued was this connection with the therapist, and we called them the connected group. They really liked therapy, the highly valued it, but it was about the connection of the therapist rather than wanting to shift or make changes. And to be fair, I think we found the ending of therapy the hardest. And it made me feel that there's the duty of some kind of ongoing support, which wasn't part of the trial protocol. But I think for them it was, yeah, if I had to run this trial again and if we had people in that sort of connected group, I would think, what kind of, is this important that a part of this is looking at? So that's qualitative. And in terms of the clinical outcomes, as my statistician keeps telling me, he is very much on feasibility trial and the power, but the primary outcome measure, the primary comparison point, which is six months post randomization, it seems to be going in the right direction. But, as my statistician keeps telling me it is the small groups and we can't ever extrapolate from the statistics, but it does seem to be promising. Jerry: Well, that sounds great. I was going to ask you a little bit about the implications of these findings to everyday practice. I think you kind of touched on that. Any kind of takeaways or thoughts on that piece? Sarah: Like I said, it is really encouraging that the speech therapists on the trial found it a positive therapy to deliver. So, it does suggest that speech therapists, who have an interest in this area, if they get training in a kind of brief psychological therapy, it is a possibility. And I would say that sort of the therapists in this trial did have monthly clinical supervision as well as quite a lot of initial training, and they had real time support when they needed it too. So, they had that sense that they felt quite nurtured, I think, within the project. And that was important. I would say the theme of feeling connected just speaks to value that the participants placed in being able to share how they were experiences to suggest that that kind of active listening and being there with someone and sort of listening to how someone is, that's of real value. And if a speech therapist has done that in a session, they should probably come away from that session feeling really proud that they have done something important. And I suppose my other thing is I'm a believer in this joint work between mental health professionals and speech language therapists. And I think going forwards, I know I've personally really valued from it, having mental health professionals in my supervisory team of EBSCO, I urge them for advice and having a kind of clinical support as well. And when you're feeling someone is very, very distressed in recognizing that as a speech therapist, that's fine. And that much of our role is working with mental health professionals. Jerry: That's terrific. I'm looking forward to reading those papers when they come out. Sarah: Thank you. Jerry: I'm on the edge of my seat for sure, it is really important work. In the meantime, is it okay if we share, you have a severe trial resource page, is it okay if we share that link with our listeners? Sarah: Absolutely. Yeah, thank you. Jerry: Excellent. Well, I could continue this conversation all day long, so probably better wind it up. I'm wondering, I just want to give a nod to this as a little bonus. Would you be able to share kind of a nutshell little version of your work on befriending in the SUPERB trial? Sarah: Yes, of course. So, the SUPERB trial has also just come to an end and they're also just writing up papers and yeah. So, that's where people with aphasia, where Mastrov befriended people who have recently come out of hospital with aphasia and the feasibility outcomes, again very, very good and strong in terms of the clinical outcomes. Really encouraging again, the statistician saying we can't over play these. But it is looking very encouraging in terms of the primary outcome measure, which is marriage, and preventing people becoming depressed. So, within SUPERB it was only people who scored as not depressed who were eligible to take part. And in terms of follow up, a 10 month follow up, it does seem that there's a difference between groups in terms of how many people results, in terms of the clinical outcomes and in terms of the qualitative side which is the side I've been most involved in. Encouraging. Yeah, there seems to be something special about an intervention delivered by people with aphasia. And at the end of the day, they can offer something that me as a health professional I can't offer. And yeah, a unique understanding and ability to empathize from having lived with the aphasia, some sort of sense of role modeling as well. This is, it's possible to live with this particular guilt, with the part of the data of experience of the defenders. And I would say that I found it a very challenging intervention to deliver, all of the logistics of organizing appointments and organizing the travel, and it can be quite challenging in terms of if the friend, the person receiving the befriending is upset or changes their mind about wanting intervention. I think that's quite hard, but they found it a very rewarding intervention to deliver and I found it very satisfying that something that was really painful in their life, but being able to use to help other people. And I think that was quite powerful. And I think they felt very pleased to be involved with the trial. And I think what they would highlight is that they were very it was very satisfying experience for them. And they thought it was making a difference, that the supervision and training was really important. And I think the real time support, as well as if they were feeling a bit stuck, that they knew they had someone and they got peer support so they supervision in the group, and I think that was really valuable. I sat in with the person doing the supervision, and I think she was wonderful. So, I think it was a lovely intervention. Jerry: Wow, that's terrific. Again, waiting for that one, too. Well, this has been a fabulous conversation. So, on behalf of Aphasia Access, we thank you for listening to this episode of the Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast. For more information on Aphasia Access and to access our growing library of materials, go to www.aphasiaaccess.org. If you have an idea for a future podcast series or topic, email us at info@aphasiaaccess.org. Thanks again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access.     Resources:  SOFIA trial resource page: https://city.figshare.com/collections/SOlution_Focused_brief_therapy_In_post-stroke_Aphasia_SOFIA_feasibility_trial/4491122    On behalf of Aphasia Access, we thank you for listening to this episode of the Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast. For more information on Aphasia Access and to access our growing library of materials go to www.aphasiaaccess.org If you have an idea for a future podcast series or topic email us at info@aphasiaaccess.org Thanks again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access.

John: So Sarah, you're an English teacher, right?Sarah: That's right.John: You must have taught in many countries before.Sarah: Yeah, I did. I taught in the USA, in Taiwan, China, South Korea, Japan and Ecuador.John: Oh, Ecuador.Sarah: Yeah.John: So you must be able to speak Spanish very well.Sarah: I think so. I studied really hard, and then when I lived in Ecuador, I spent a lot of time talking to people.John: Did you teach Spanish, too?Sarah: No, I didn't. When I lived in Ecuador actually, I volunteered for the United Nations.John: Wow.Sarah: And I taught families and they were being relocated to Canada because they were fleeing the drug wars of Colombia.John: Wow.Sarah: So I felt very badly for these families but they had a really bright future. So that was good. But then one week, I had a family, a couple of families and they were being relocated to Sweden.John: Oh.Sarah: And I said, "I can't teach them Swedish." And the UN said, "Well, maybe just teach them English." So I thought, they're going to Sweden, they don't need to learn English right now. And my friend at the time – she's Norwegian, and we were living together. And every day, she helped me to learn a little bit of Swedish. Just enough for one class so that I could teach these families…John: Wait, wait.Sarah: …some Swedish.John: You were teaching Swedish language?Sarah: Yes.John: You are an English speaker.Sarah: Yes.John: You lived in Ecuador.Sarah: Yes.John: And a Norwegian person taught you Swedish.Sarah: Yes.John: So you could teach Swedish to people from Ecuador.Sarah: From Colombia, currently living in Ecuador.John: So they could move to Sweden.Sarah: Yes.John: And you did this as a volunteer.Sarah: Yeah. I wanted to help people. So I moved to Ecuador and I got a volunteer job with the United Nations to help teach people but I never thought I would be teaching Swedish.John: Wow.Sarah: Yeah. It was a lot of fun.John: I would like to try that someday, too.Sarah: You can do it.

Sarah: Okay, John. I was curious about a trip you've taken. Have you ever taken a really, really awesome trip?John: Yeah. I've been on a lot of awesome trips but I didn't know that trips could be so awesome until I went with my kids.Sarah: Really? It went well?John: Oh yeah. It went very well. It's more fun, I think to take kids with on a trip.Sarah: Where did you go?John: I went to.Sarah: Wow.John: My first trip with a kid was with my daughter to. We did everything. We rode on elephants in, and we went down south and went to the beach. I wasn't worried about anything because of having kids with us. Yeah.So I wonder what would have been different if I didn't have kids. I probably would have stayed up too late, and I wouldn't have woken up in the morning. In that way, I think kids can help you have a better vacation. You can use your time better because kids are definitely going to wake up early. So you can't waste the morning.Sarah: You said you rode an elephant.John: Yes.Sarah: With your daughter? Didn't you think that was dangerous?John: Well, I was nervous about it at first. I thought, maybe it would be too dangerous but we had very good guides to help us. So I asked the elephant trainers, "Do you think it's safe enough for my daughter to ride the elephants?" And the trainers told us, yes, it would be very safe. And the trainers were right there with us together, from the start to the end. So there was never any risk.Sarah: Was there anything that you wanted to do but you decided you couldn't do it?John: Well, maybe there are some things that younger people would do if they don't have kids like going out to a dance club late at night. But I wasn't too interested in doing that anyway, so I don't consider that I missed it. Besides a dance club late at night, I don't think there's anything else I skipped. Maybe an amusement park. When you have a baby or a toddler, you can't go to an amusement park and go on a rollercoaster. But after the kids are older, you can do that, too.Sarah: So when you went to Thailand, you had one daughter, do you have more kids now?John: Yes. Now, I have a daughter and a son.Sarah: Is it hard to travel with two kids?John: Oh, it's a little harder than traveling with one kid but it's not twice as hard. There are two kids now but it's not twice as hard as traveling with one kid. Also, you find that lots of people want to help you. So if you have too many bags, for example, someone will help you carry your bags. Or if you need to feed your kids because babies can't feed themselves, right, well you just have to learn some skills like give one kid some toys while you feed the first child and then switch. So give toys to the other kid and feed the second one. So you learn lots of tricks like that so you can make traveling easier.Sarah: Well, it sounds like you have a great time traveling with your kids. Thanks for telling me about it.John: Oh yeah. I want to go on more trips with my kids. I can't wait for our next.

Sarah: Okay, John. I was curious about a trip you've taken. Have you ever taken a really, really awesome trip?John: Yeah. I've been on a lot of awesome trips but I didn't know that trips could be so awesome until I went with my kids.Sarah: Really? It went well?John: Oh yeah. It went very well. It's more fun, I think to take kids with on a trip.Sarah: Where did you go?John: I went to.Sarah: Wow.John: My first trip with a kid was with my daughter to. We did everything. We rode on elephants in, and we went down south and went to the beach. I wasn't worried about anything because of having kids with us. Yeah.So I wonder what would have been different if I didn't have kids. I probably would have stayed up too late, and I wouldn't have woken up in the morning. In that way, I think kids can help you have a better vacation. You can use your time better because kids are definitely going to wake up early. So you can't waste the morning.Sarah: You said you rode an elephant.John: Yes.Sarah: With your daughter? Didn't you think that was dangerous?John: Well, I was nervous about it at first. I thought, maybe it would be too dangerous but we had very good guides to help us. So I asked the elephant trainers, "Do you think it's safe enough for my daughter to ride the elephants?" And the trainers told us, yes, it would be very safe. And the trainers were right there with us together, from the start to the end. So there was never any risk.Sarah: Was there anything that you wanted to do but you decided you couldn't do it?John: Well, maybe there are some things that younger people would do if they don't have kids like going out to a dance club late at night. But I wasn't too interested in doing that anyway, so I don't consider that I missed it. Besides a dance club late at night, I don't think there's anything else I skipped. Maybe an amusement park. When you have a baby or a toddler, you can't go to an amusement park and go on a rollercoaster. But after the kids are older, you can do that, too.Sarah: So when you went to Thailand, you had one daughter, do you have more kids now?John: Yes. Now, I have a daughter and a son.Sarah: Is it hard to travel with two kids?John: Oh, it's a little harder than traveling with one kid but it's not twice as hard. There are two kids now but it's not twice as hard as traveling with one kid. Also, you find that lots of people want to help you. So if you have too many bags, for example, someone will help you carry your bags. Or if you need to feed your kids because babies can't feed themselves, right, well you just have to learn some skills like give one kid some toys while you feed the first child and then switch. So give toys to the other kid and feed the second one. So you learn lots of tricks like that so you can make traveling easier.Sarah: Well, it sounds like you have a great time traveling with your kids. Thanks for telling me about it.John: Oh yeah. I want to go on more trips with my kids. I can't wait for our next.

Sarah: Okay, John. I was curious about a trip you've taken. Have you ever taken a really, really awesome trip?John: Yeah. I've been on a lot of awesome trips but I didn't know that trips could be so awesome until I went with my kids.Sarah: Really? It went well?John: Oh yeah. It went very well. It's more fun, I think to take kids with on a trip.Sarah: Where did you go?John: I went to.Sarah: Wow.John: My first trip with a kid was with my daughter to. We did everything. We rode on elephants in, and we went down south and went to the beach. I wasn't worried about anything because of having kids with us. Yeah.So I wonder what would have been different if I didn't have kids. I probably would have stayed up too late, and I wouldn't have woken up in the morning. In that way, I think kids can help you have a better vacation. You can use your time better because kids are definitely going to wake up early. So you can't waste the morning.Sarah: You said you rode an elephant.John: Yes.Sarah: With your daughter? Didn't you think that was dangerous?John: Well, I was nervous about it at first. I thought, maybe it would be too dangerous but we had very good guides to help us. So I asked the elephant trainers, "Do you think it's safe enough for my daughter to ride the elephants?" And the trainers told us, yes, it would be very safe. And the trainers were right there with us together, from the start to the end. So there was never any risk.Sarah: Was there anything that you wanted to do but you decided you couldn't do it?John: Well, maybe there are some things that younger people would do if they don't have kids like going out to a dance club late at night. But I wasn't too interested in doing that anyway, so I don't consider that I missed it. Besides a dance club late at night, I don't think there's anything else I skipped. Maybe an amusement park. When you have a baby or a toddler, you can't go to an amusement park and go on a rollercoaster. But after the kids are older, you can do that, too.Sarah: So when you went to Thailand, you had one daughter, do you have more kids now?John: Yes. Now, I have a daughter and a son.Sarah: Is it hard to travel with two kids?John: Oh, it's a little harder than traveling with one kid but it's not twice as hard. There are two kids now but it's not twice as hard as traveling with one kid. Also, you find that lots of people want to help you. So if you have too many bags, for example, someone will help you carry your bags. Or if you need to feed your kids because babies can't feed themselves, right, well you just have to learn some skills like give one kid some toys while you feed the first child and then switch. So give toys to the other kid and feed the second one. So you learn lots of tricks like that so you can make traveling easier.Sarah: Well, it sounds like you have a great time traveling with your kids. Thanks for telling me about it.John: Oh yeah. I want to go on more trips with my kids. I can't wait for our next.

Welcome back podcast lovers! Kicking off Season 3 of Castaway is the Queen of Podcasting - Deborah Frances-White. Laura and Deborah discuss the incredible journey of The Guilty Feminist, as well as Deborah’s lockdown favourites including nostalgia podcast with Scrubs actors Zach Braff and Donald Faison Fake Doctors Real Friends, film review podcast Best Pick and some juicy sex and relationship podcasts including You'll Do and award-winning Brown Girls Do It Too - amongst many more. As Deborah takes us through her list of recommendations, as ever, the conversation finds its way to topics such as feminism, sexuality, race and antiracism, as well as some of Deborah’s career highlights. Podcasts referenced in the conversation includes: The Guilty Feminist Fake Doctors Real Friends Best Pick Catherine and Sarah - You'll Do Brown Girls Do It Too Have You Heard George's Podcast We're Having A Moment by Baratunde Thurston

With many employers looking at changing contracts as a way of avoiding redundancies, we ask Acas advisers Mark Makin and Helen Robinson how to do it well. We explore:- The best way to change employment contracts- Why consulting staff matters- How to do this well remotely- What your rights are as an employeeEpisode Resourceshttps://www.acas.org.uk/changing-an-employment-contractTranscript Sarah GuthrieWelcome to the Acas Podcast. We're talking today about changing an employment contract with Acas advisors, Helen Robinson and Mark Makin, and I'm Sarah Guthrie. This is topical at the moment because lots of employers are looking at changing contracts as an alternative to making people redundant. So employers are asking, how can we do that? And members of staff might be asking us, can my employer do this? So Helen, let's start off with employers. What's the best way of going about changing an employment contract?Helen RobinsonThere's a number of different ways that an employer can can consider changing somebody's contract or varying the terms and conditions. But I think the best way from an Acas perspective would be where possible to do so by agreement. If an employer speaks to a member of staff, and they are able to get their agreement to make a change to their terms and conditions, then ultimately that is going to be the best way for conducive working relationship moving forward.Mark MakinTo echo what Helen said there, taking the workforce with you - informing, explaining consulting, discussing, providing feedback - that sets the tone for the relationship once the change comes into effect, because the trust and the goodwill will need to be there to take the organisation forward afterwards. And if we make changes without agreements, there's a big possibility that that trust and goodwill won't be there, which is going to create problems with itself.Helen Building on that, I mean, what some employers are choosing to do is to see whether they can make these changes on a temporary basis because staff might be more willing or accepting to the changes there. And I've also spoken to an employer recently who has offered an incentives so the change that they were looking at making was a 10% pay cut and that was across the board 10% pay cut for all staff. That was a measure to look at avoiding redundancy. And what the employer said almost as an incentive was that if this didn't work, and if actually they did need to make any redundancies within the next 12 months, their redundancy pay and their notice pay would be calculated at their original wage so that the wage that was slightly higher, and so that that was something that went some way for for stuff agreeing to that change. Sarah Yeah, I can see why that would really help because we've heard stories of people who have agreed to a temporary pay cap with a perception that then they won't be made redundant and get made redundant and then also have their redundancies as calculated on their most recent pay, which is half of what they were being paid. So I guess it, it sounds like thinking through in detail how your staff will respond to the changes you're proposing both in the short term and the long term is really important here. Some people listening to this podcast might be thinking, Well, can employers change a contract? What are my rights? I wondered if you could give us an insight into that.Helen If a member of staff agrees to a change, then absolutely a change can be made to that contract, whether it's on a temporary or a permanent basis. I think it's very, very important when we're looking at agreements and agreeing to a change that an employer is very open and honest about what this change is going to be. How long is it going to last for? Is it going to be permanent? Because employees need to have that information so that they can make an informed decision about whether they are happy to agree. But I also think it's equally if not more important for employers to be open about the reason behind the change. Because if they approach their staff and they speak about Okay - we will use the 10% pay cut as an example - we're looking at giving you a 10% pay cut, if that's all the information that staff have, then it's highly unlikely that they're going to be happy about that or agreed to it. Whereas if an employer approaches staff and says, Okay, look, we're looking at a 10% pay cut and the reasons are because x y z, people still may or may not be happy about it, but they might be more likely to respond to that say, Okay, yeah, I can understand the reasons why. And yes, I will accept that change.Sarah So keeping very clear communication around the reason why and also how long it's likely to be for and what the long term consequences of that might be. And, Mark, what have you seen from employers about good practice in this area?Mark I think it is the communication as early as possible, as open and transparent as possible. And it's two way. Feedback is given. I think that's something that is often missed in this type of process, where the employer may well go into this type of situation. And they will listen to what people have to say, but they don't provide the feedback. And the feedback may be that was a great idea. But we can't do it, because in some cases, it may be that's a great idea we haven't thought about. Let's discuss in some more detail how we might be able to implement that.Helen Just remember that if you are looking at changing the contract of 20 or more people, there are additional consultation requirements on you, and that you would need to collectively consult. So that would mean either involving trade union representatives if you recognise a trade union, or giving staff the opportunity to appoint employee representatives to almost act as a go between and have conversations with employer and staff themselves.Sarah And that two way communication is very different at the moment for most workplaces than what we would have encountered in the past. Do you have any insight into the challenges of doing this remotely and how people have been overcoming them?Helen I think there are I should say that added challenges. And I think sometimes it's very important for employers to remember that actually, people have got other stuff going on at home. At the moment, yes, they may be working from home. But it might be that they need to schedule a specific time to have important conversations such as these when I don't know if they've not got children at home or the partner is able to look after children at that particular point or other caring responsibilities. So being very, very clear about what's going to be spoken about in a specific meeting or specific virtual meeting. But making sure that that person is in the right frame of mind with minimal distractions to have this conversation because it is an important conversation. Just because people are working remotely or we may have people furlough that we need to speak to, there still needs to be a good level of communication. And what I mean by that is not just an email chain, it's a conversation that would usually be had and it should be a conversation, have it as a conversation, whether it's a video call, whether it's a telephone conversation, not just an email to all and saying this is happening or we're proposing this how. Have a conversation.Sarah So you mentioned Mark that one of the things people often miss is the two way feedback and the need for that. What other mistakes have you seen employers making? And why do you think those mistakes are being made? Mark There's sometimes an assumption that I've made this decision for the good of the business. So people will automatically accept that it's the right decision. So one of the mistakes that is often made is that that communication, early communication doesn't take place. A decision has already been made, and the employer presents it to the staff almost as a fait accompli, and then is shocked and surprised when they get objections to that, or when people have concerns about it. Or when there is a long list of questions about well, how will this impact me? What does this mean for me? When is it gonna happen? It's it's almost like the employer sometimes jumps the gun and makes the decisions for good reasons, but misses out that communication stage consultation stage.Sarah One thing that's really struck me about doing this process well is that it can take quite a lot of time. And I wonder what you would say to somebody who's thinking, well, that all sounds great, I don't have time to do this.Mark Ultimately, the decision is the employers. But the conversation that I would have with them would be centred around not just the legal risks that they might face if they get this wrong - so there might be breach of contract claims there might be constructive dismissal claims, there might be claims centred around the failure to consult properly if they are in a collective situation. But I'd also talk about some of the less obvious risks, the impact on your workforce, in terms of morale and motivation, the goodwill and that trust and confidence that needs to exist between the employer and the workforce in order for them to function properly.Sarah And so what rights do you have as a member of staff who's going through this process? Perhaps there's been a proposed change, perhaps your employer has or hasn't handled it well? Could you just talk us through what rights you have?Helen It's not an uncommon question from from an employee to say, Okay, well, you're talking about agreement to change, but actually, I don't want to agree to it for whatever reason, and it may be that an employer has done absolutely everything that Mark and I have spoken about. They've consulted they discussed, they've been very open about the the reason behind this change, but the change doesn't suit the member of staff and that is a real life situation. And I think in all circumstances, there's absolutely no obligation on a member of staff to agree to a change. But I do think it's, it's worth being aware that ultimately, if they don't agree to change, there are other options that are available to their employer. For example, if an employer feels that they've got absolutely no option, but to make this change, and their business may go under otherwise, for example, then they do have the option of actually ending the existing contracts by giving notice. And then re-engaging their staff at the end of that notice period on new contracts. What I would say is that it's not a risk free thing for an employer to do. It is still technically a dismissal, you dismissing somebody from their existing role, from their existing contract. And with that in mind, an individual would have the option, if they chose to, to appeal against the decision. They'd also potentially have the option of actually treating that notice as notice of dismissal. And if they felt it was unfair, and they weren't engaged in the new contract, they could potentially look at making a complaint to an employment tribunal around that. So it's not risk free for an employer. It's an option but it's not not a risk free one.Mark As well as the agreement route to vary a contract, and the dismissal and reengagement route to varying contracts, some employers already have flexibility clauses built in to their contracts, which they can invoke. Just a word of caution around flexibility clauses: they do need to be well written, they need to be quite specific, and they need to be reasonable in order them for them to be to stand up and and be operative. And you usually find them around place of work, job role, job function, hours of work. Even if flexibility clauses already exist in a contract before invoking them, I think it's good practice for the employer to speak to staff and explain the circumstances such that they feel they need to invoke the clause. Here's the reason why I feel a need to involve the clause and here's the fine detail about about when and how and what it might mean for you. But then leave the door open for the staff to come back with questions, concerns and objections of other suggestions and ideas. There is another option, unilateral variation, which involves the employer simply making the change and imposing it on employees. But it is fraught with risk and it should be only used as a very, very last resort. It opens the door to legal challenges, it doesn't go down well with the workforce, it will damage goodwill, it will remove any discretionary behaviour that might have been the previous layer, and it just doesn't make for good employment relations as well as the the big legal risks that come along with imposing changes on your workforce.Helen And I think if I if I just add to that, I did some work with an organisation last year - so we're talking pre COVID pre pandemic. And the employer had done exactly this, they had basically informed all of their workforce that as of next week, they were going from a five day to a four day working week, and the pay cut that that attracted as well. Now as Mark said, they lost a lot of goodwill from their staff with that, but what also happened was they lost within about the following month, four members of staff left and went working for another organisation. But what had actually happened, these four particular members of staff were quite specialist, so they had to be replaced. So there's all these then additional costs that the employers got of losing experienced, knowledgeable members of staff, and then having to go through recruitment again to replace them when they were already struggling with money, which is why this this going to four day working week had come in in the first place.Mark And I can see in a situation like that Helen where, if the employer had spoken to people in advance, early, been open about the need to make the change, staff may well have agreed to that once they understood the full picture. Helen Absolutely, yeah. And I think at the end, the employer in his particular circumstance, had done exactly what we were talking about earlier. He'd fallen into one of those traps where they felt they had consulted because they themselves had thought about all these different measures or different ways and come up with the solution. But they'd done it on their own. They hadn't involve their staff during that thought process.Sarah I'm just thinking of people who are listening to this and thinking my employer is not doing this well. They haven't consulted very well. They haven't listened to that feedback. What would you advise someone in that position about how they can help their whole workplace go through this process more smoothly? Helen I think in the first instance, and this would be true of any concern that any member of staff has within a workplace, we would be advising them to raise that and to raise that internally. I think it's very important for both employers and members of staff to see whether a situation can be resolved internally before they think. Okay, well, is there any sort of external complaints I could make? And part of the reason for that is something that Mark mentioned earlier on, it's about the fact that hopefully, a working relationship is going to continue. And the more that that can be resolved internally, and informally wherever possible, the more likely it is that that working relationship will continue and will continue to be positive. Sarah Thanks. That's been really helpful. I wondered if you could leave us with a key insight that you've had to during your work on this topic. Helen The key thing - and Mark and I have referenced this throughout our conversation today - is to communicate and to communicate as early as possible.Mark And to keep communicating. I've seen situations, certainly in collective situations where there are laid down consultation periods that the employer must observe. But I've seen situations where we get to the end of that 30 days or 45 days, depending on the numbers, and the employer decides that's it job done, when it would have made so much more difference if they just kept that talk in that communication going for a few more days, because they were making progress. Things were developing yet, they'd come to the end of the statutory consultation period, and they felt that's it. That's the green light to move ahead now. So don't be bound by any limits. If things are moving ahead. If progress is being made, keep talking. Helen Absolutely. Yeah. Sarah It's a great thing to remember for all workplace relationships, not just varying a contract, changing your contract. And so thanks very much for your insight today.Helen Thank you. Mark Okay.Sarah You've been listening to the Acas podcast. You can find full details about what you need to know about changing an employment contract on our website at www.acas.org.uk Thanks for listening. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Welcome to the Hustle System Podcast! -Where Art Meets Commerce- Today, it is my absolute pleasure to interview Sarah Stewart (@sarahannestewart) "When things are broken is the time to dream big and create from imagination and thinking of ideas you never thought" -Sarah Stewart- Sarah is one of the most knowledgeable and experienced persons when it comes to inner work on men and women helping thousands of women to achieve a better relationship not only with themself but also with their significant others and understand how it can affect all areas of their lives. In this exclusive interview, we unpacked a lot of value on the most important aspects that we need to understand to get on the right path to fulfillment, why self-love and confidence will help us achieve better relationships with ourselves and others. we also unpacked why being aware of your thoughts and understanding that they are just a reflection of our reference experiences will completely change the way you look at the world because you can always reframe them with a better experience and action that will help you face your deepest unconscious fears that are holding you back without you even being aware of it Sarah helped thousands on her 1-1 programs not only achieving a more confident life and better relationships but also growing their brand, implementing what she learned from her husband which is one of the best copywriters in the world she decided to help a selected group of entrepreneurs to expand their brand and implement copy that sells So, sit back, relax, put on your headphones, and get ready to learn from the best of the best. ▼ Sarah Stewart ▼Website YouTube Instagram Facebook AWESOME INSIDE OUT MOVEMENT Facebook Group AWESOME INSIDE OUT podcast on Apple You can join her FREE 21-day program, that will help you reshape your relationship with food and start healing yourself and your body Apply for 1on1 coaching with Sarah (You will receive personalized coaching, tools, and mindset shifts that you have never learned before, and may have been seeking for months or even years. In short, you will learn the most critical ‘pieces-of-the-puzzle’ that you have been missing) ▼ MIKHAIL KUZNETSOV ▼ Instagram Facebook Youtube Get Mentored by Me for 12 FULL WEEKS! ▼ HUSTLE SYSTEM ▼ FREE FACEBOOK GROUP JOIN THE HUSTLE SYSTEM VIP COMMUNITY!

In this episode, I catch up with my lovely friend Sarah Ives about ex-pat life in London, the travel industry, finding ourselves after grief, and how she's navigating motherhood, cooking and finances during COVID-19. Sarah also shares her experience with fertility and the difficult medical decision she had to make during her second pregnancy (40:20-57:00).Note: This episode may be triggering. Sarah has shared her fertility and pregnancy story so that other women know they are not alone. The times of this part of the conversation are marked above.Sarah is an American ex-pat from New York living in London with her husband and two little girls. Having always wanted to live abroad, Sarah studied in Paris and got her Masters in Advertising from the London College of Communication. She is a Luxury Travel Consultant and marketing professional by trade and looks forward to exploring the world in the new normal when we are able to travel again. Connect with Sarah: You can follow Sarah's finance, motherhood and ex-pat life adventures on Instagram @the_countess_of_kennington.Books we talk about in this episode:Untamed (Glennan Doyle)A Complaint Free World (Will Bowen)The Latte Factor (David Bach)Papillon (Henri Charriere)Check out Ativo Skincare for hand sanitizer (look up hand cleanser), hand cream and other lovely all-natural skincare and pampering products. (Not an ad, I just love their stuff!)Let's connect! Please take a moment to rate, review and share the episode with a friend. You can also join the conversation on Instagram and Facebook and by joining the Cup of Something Lovely Book Club! Thanks for listening and see you next week for another round of girl talk.

Summary In today’s episode, with the help of Sarah McLean, the owner of the McLean Meditation Institute, my personal teacher, and a woman with an unusual and exciting background, we will demystify meditation.  There are so many brands and types of meditation out there; it can be downright confusing. The important thing is to understand a bit, not make it too hard, and, most importantly, do not delay your practice! Without practice, you are missing all the amazing benefits of meditation.  Sarah’s joining us from Santa Barbara, California, and will tell you her journey to demystify meditation.  She will tell you tales of her time in the Army, in an ashram in India, and travels on a nine-month mountain bike trek through faraway lands. She will touch on many experiences from Transcendental Meditation, working with Deepak Chopra to ah-ha moments on a rooftop in Georgetown, DC. She did all the work, and we all benefit from her discoveries. On last week’s show, we talked about three things to make your meditation a slam dunk: desire, focus, and a nonjudgmental attitude (which I learned long ago from Sarah herself.) This episode is perfect timing because Sarah will take those three things and go deeper as she unravels the mysteries of meditation. My suggestion is to listen intently but listen gently, like the awareness of breath in meditation. You know you are breathing but get lost in the beauty of its simplicity. Do not control or change; just follow and enjoy. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Podcast  Hey there, Alexa Z here! I am so excited and a little nervous because I have Sarah McLean, my meditation teacher, on the line. She is kind enough to take time out of her busy schedule to help me, help you demystify meditation, specifically the different types/brands of meditation.   I found Sarah after many years of meditating. I started meditating when I was 17 years old because I had terrible panic attacks. Meditation was a pill for me. I wish I could go back and start again; I would because now I know all the opportunities meditation has provided me, and I would have had a more consistent practice from the start.  Alexa: I want to welcome Sarah! Again, I am a little nervous and excited. This will be a fun back and forth conversation. I am also a bit jealous because I know you are in Santa Barbara, California, and the weather is a lot nicer than the rain, drizzle, and cold here in Annapolis, Maryland.   Sarah: Well, it is a bit like heaven on earth, sorry to make you jealous. Maybe we can practice Mudita, which is sympathetic joy, I hope you can feel happy for me, that I get to live in Santa Barbara after trying to convince my husband to move here for 17 years. It's great to be here, and Maryland is not too shabby.  Alexa: No, it isn't, and knowing that I can visit and take more classes at your new meditation center with you in Santa Barbara, makes me super happy. So let's, get right into it. Let's demystify meditation. The reason why this came to mind is that my students, clients, and even strangers come to me and say they have been studying meditation but have not started their practice. Typically, they say they are waiting for a particular time in there life to begin meditating or that they need to continue to learn about meditation before starting a practice. Sarah, what do you think about all of this. Why is it so confusing? Sarah: There are so many different types, categories of meditation  Uses Formal and informal Religious, historical origin Different names in other languages Brand new/Brand names I'll share a little bit about my story and how I got into meditation. More importantly, how I realized I did not know anything about meditation.   Alexa: Oh, that's perfect! Sarah: When I was younger, I was in the military. I wanted to be a spy, but that didn't work out. I wanted to understand the mysteries of life. I did not become a spy; instead, I became a behavioral specialist; that's when I started to learn the mysteries of the mind. I worked with Soldiers who suffered from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorders (PTSD). Back then, we used medication versus meditation. Luckily for me, I was introduced to a body awareness practice. I was sitting outside of a psychiatric hospital, where, unfortunately, that's where many Soldiers who were really suffering would end up. Our whole platoon was sitting out on the lawn when one of the male nurses introduced me to a body scan. He had us all laydown, and he guided us from our head to our toes, allowing us to relax. It was only about 10 minutes. In the end, I realized that I worked with very stressed Soldiers, and I didn't even realize the amount of stress I was carrying. That moment planted a seed in me. After I got out of the Army, I looked into contemplative practices. I spent a lot of time exploring world traditions, looking for the secrets of life. I was on my mountain bike for about nine months and bicycled half-way around the world. I kept looking for the answers. I found it when I was sitting in my room in Georgetown, Washington, D.C. I was on the top of a three-story of a brownstone, learning to meditate using a silent mantra practice, through Transcendental Meditation (TM). Again, there was a contrast on how I felt before I learned, and after I silently repeated a mantra that I had no idea what it meant. It was another "ah-ha" moment. A few months after that, I moved to a TM community. I answered the phones and discussed mind, body, health. I was working with Deepak Chopra, who, at the time, no one was familiar with. People were looking for alternative practices and alternative healing. Many people would seek our help because of health reasons such as chemotherapy didn't work, diagnosed with Parkinson's, or depressed. I would ask all who called, "do you meditate?" They would answer with, yes, while I am watching TV, driving to work, or in the shower. I would have to convince them all to learn to meditate because meditation was required to be in the TM community. In 1990, meditation was not a "buzz word." No one talked about mindfulness. People would come to the community, and I would teach them about meditation. Unfortunately, at the time, I thought there was only one way to meditate. Though I had that great experience with the body scan, I was still "drinking the kool-aid" on the brand name of TM. So even when someone told me they were Upasana, insight, or mindfulness, or a different type of meditation, I wouldn't give it much credit.   Alexa: I have known you for a long time, and I have heard all your stories, but it is so fun to listen to it in order; it's starting to make so much sense to me. I have a lot of military people in this town, and a lot of military people listen to my podcast. I want everyone to take note that Sarah started her journey with meditation in the Army. How long ago was that? Sarah: It was 1980/1981. It was only done by a rouge male nurse, who felt the need to take us aside and try the body awareness practice. Meditation was not mandated to be a part of our training.   Alexa: It still isn't mandated, but it is interesting that you initially thought you would become a spy, you ended up learning about body scans. A lot of meditators feel that we can't be a meditator unless I do what Sarah does, go all those places, learn all those things. You taught me through your experiences that I can learn, and I don't have to live in an ashram for years. I am really grateful for that! Sarah: You are welcome! Alexa: Thank you for doing all the learning for all of us.  Sarah: I wasn't the mainstream kind of gal, I didn't want just to get married and have kids, get a job, and retire. My motivation in life was, can I find out the mysteries of this existence? What is it that animates all of creation? I know I am a little weird, but that was what was right for me.   I have to fast-forward after working and being in the TM organization for years. I won't go into the whole story, as you can google it. Deepak Chopra and I got kicked out of TM. Getting kicked out of an organization tells me one thing, that is that it is exclusive, not inclusive. How can you get kicked out of a meditation organization?! Well, some ways are to change your guru, changing your job, or changes that some tell you not to, but you do it anyway. I am in good company, so is Deepak Chopra. There is also Ravi Shankar, who does the Art of Living program. Many have been "kicked out" of TM. That was a warning for me, how can TM be a great organization? TM practice is a great practice. After I left the TM organization, I went to California with Deepak in 1992/1993. We opened up a health center. He came up with his practice, which was also a silent practice that is not TM. Deepak's practice is called Primordial Sound Meditation. I started to learn that there are a variety of practices available and they all work. You can stare at the sky, a fire, etc. to use as your object of meditation.  There are so many types of meditation.  Zen Buddist Tradition paying attention to your breath counting your breath asking yourself questions that stopped the mind walking meditation imagination meditation Scientists are researching meditation. I have been a research subject in a few studies. Scientists have a hard time differentiating the different types of meditation. Here are a few ways that I categorize mediation: Focus awareness/concentration meditation Open awareness meditation- Advanced practices Guided meditation Imagery meditation When I was in India, I learned more about meditation.   Guru Eat, pray, love Chanting Devotion After India, I moved into a Zen Buddist Monastery. I wanted to give up the whole notion of devotion and move into emptiness.   I want to share the basics of meditation. You went into meditation because you wanted to get rid of your anxiety. I went into meditation because I had a very stressful childhood, and I also suffered from panic attacks. I wanted to feel that life mattered, I mattered, and a deep sense of love.   There are three basic ingredients to any type of meditation.  [Sarah discusses in detail the below] Your intention Attention What you are paying attention to: something you hear sound-based meditation something you see visual-based meditation something you sense feeling/emotion moving stillness Alexa: My listeners might still be a little unsure of where to start. When you talked about focused awareness and open awareness; I compare it to a camera, am I zooming in or am taking a wide-angled, panorama picture. I want to go back to the three things that you taught me, going back to desire, non-judgemental attitude, and focus. Sarah, I started feeling over-whelmed when I didn't have a focus. When I read your book, Soul-centered: Transform your life in 8 weeks with meditation, before knowing you, you helped me simplify meditation. Thank God, science now says we have a body, a mind, and an energy system, and neuroplasticity does exist. Sarah, I am sure you will agree with me, when science proved that neuroplasticity exists, that's when meditation became popular. Sarah, what are your thoughts? Sarah: Meditation is not difficult, but you do have to set yourself up to succeed. When I was writing that book, I tried to deconstruct meditation. First off, you have to recognize that many people will say that you have to clear your mind to meditate. The minute I close my eyes, my default neuro network comes in, I start a monologue with myself, and I can't clear my mind. Instead of clearing your mind, you should interrupt the constant activity of the mind by paying attention to a particular object. Yoga is about the union of subject, object.  Subject: You, your consciousness Object: could be: Breath Body movement Behavior Saint Quality of a Saint When I was writing that book, it was a ten-week program. Then this study came out about neuroplasticity, neuro meaning nervous system and the brain, and plasticity meaning plastic or flexibility. In 2012, neuroplasticity studies were showing that with meditation, the thickening of the cortex can happen. Meaning you develop new neuro-pathways, new connections that help you to navigate the world more skillfully. Meditation also changes other parts of your brain. Your amygdala, the reactivity center of the brain, lessens its dominance, so you become much more responsive as the executive function of the neocortex start to become more dominant. This all results in the amygdala, "fight or flight" response becomes less apparent. You gain space between stimulus and response. This shows up in meditation as a state, and overtime shows up as traits in the brain.   Meditation is a practice. Find the one you like. I used to be very militant due to my time in the military, and I used to think there is only one way to meditate. So, find a practice you like and get in a routine. The best thing to do is to start meditating as soon as you get up in the morning.   There are many studies on the different practices of meditation and their benefits.  mindfulness practice - keeps you more engaged Loving-kindness, gratitude practices - cultivate emotions transcending mental activity - direct experience of YOU Alexa: If I decided that all this information makes sense and I want to start meditation when I get up tomorrow morning, what should I do? Sarah:  Gather yourself, welcoming everything, and resisting nothing.  Start with 1-2 minutes of mindfulness. Sit down Close your eyes Set yourself up  Turn your phone off Turn music off  Sit up Close your eye or gaze towards your hands/floor Pay attention/observe environment and body Be in the being and not in the doing Then, Body Scan Choose a focus Start with breath awareness Relaxation Response Refocus It's the nature of your mind to think. Your job is to bring your mind back to your focus.  [Meditation Practice] It does not matter how many times you have to refocus, be kind to yourself, and let go of expectations.   Lastly, be sure to determine how long you are going to meditate.  Alexa: I would like to wrap up by saying, yes, there are many types of meditation, but don't worry about it and don't feel like you have to learn them all. What Sarah and I say, "just get up and start meditating." The best thing about research is that you are your own best individual subject. Pick a practice, stick with it, and enjoy it. I used the definition of meditation that comes straight from Sarah, "meditation is a practice, it's old, it's new, it's modern, it's ancient, it's all of those things, but it is a training." Links: Sarah McLean Bio Sarah McLean Books Alexa Z Meditates      

Kathy: Welcome to Kathy Santo’s Dog Sense, I'm your host Kathy Santo and I'm here to teach you everything I've learned in my over three decades of training dogs, their families, competing in dog sports, writing about dogs, and being a guest on radio and TV shows. And I am with one of my trainers, Sarah out in Colorado and we are doing an episode on traveling, because I don't know about you Sarah, but I've traveled a ton with my dogs.  Sarah: Yeah. So specifically, we'll be talking about if you were to go on a long road trip with your dog. We'll touch on a little bit of if you are traveling on an airplane with your dog, but mainly we'll go over our tried and true tips. I mean I've traveled halfway across the country with my three dogs multiple times, and I'm sure you've done a ton of traveling with your dogs as well. Kathy: I have. And back in the day when I was competing a lot, there were a lot of airline flights as well. So yeah, a lot to say about that. And I think that this topic came up because we hear it really two times of the year. One is over the holidays. Everybody wants to travel with their dog on the holidays, but another popular time is during the summer. You guys get that vacation. And the first thing I always say to people is, “How much traveling has your dog done?”  Sarah: Exactly! Kathy: So you get the dog who maybe comes to class once a week or he goes to the vet once a year and now they want to go on a road trip. And I'm like, “No, you have to teach your dog to get used to traveling!” Because it's a lot. And I'm like, “Are there some dogs that'll roll with it?” Yeah, absolutely. But it's an experience they have to get used to.” People have dogs who are fearful of cars, they get that. But people who haven't had that experience don't understand that a dog who loves a trip down the block or to the dog school may not be comfortable with something that is that long in one space. So you’ve got to get them used to it. Sarah: Yeah, and they don't think about all of the safety, kind of, like, the preparations that you need to take. Not only just safety, but also, if it's a really long road trip, all the prep that goes into, like, their food, the water, making sure you have proper identification, emergency vet contact information. We're going to go over all of that. But there is so much prep for safety as well when traveling with your dog that's really, really important. People just think they can throw their dog in the car and go. And some dogs might be okay with that, but most of them need a little bit more prep than that. Kathy: Yeah. And if you think you’re going to do that and you do, you find out pretty quickly that you made a big error in judgment. Alright! So the first thing I think we would both agree on is that if you're going to take a road trip of any great length, and for me, I think anything over two hours is going to be something that a lot of dogs need to get used to. So I'm not saying go on two hour trips, but I am saying go beyond the comfort zone. If your dog only goes to pick up your kids at school, you know, you got to get some longer trips going. So that would be my first thing. Prepare your dog with the length of travel and, also, prepare them for the different environments. You know, if you're going to a hotel and they have slippery floors, or your dog's going to be in an elevator. Like these are the things that you need to get the dog comfortable with before you decide to take them out and about. Sarah: And also just being in the car, too. So of course, we're going to touch on this as well, but safety, whether they're in a crate or in a crash proof harness. Also, so I don’t know if you've noticed this, but my dogs, when they're in their crates in the car, they go into kind of like a trance. Like, they just go to sleep. Even if in the rare case they are in the backseat of the car and not in their crates, they lay right down and they go right to sleep because that's kind of what I've taught them to do in the car. So, if you have a dog who is not used these longer road trips, a lot of times what you'll see is a lot of heavy panting, there'll be a lot of drooling. Like, they'll have those anxiety responses to it because they're not used to it. Kathy: When I was a kid, we had a great Pyrenees, Teddy, and we used to go down the shore, and this is before seat belts. Sort of before any car safety. She's in the back of the station wagon, panting the entire two and a half hours down the shore, panting and drooling. And did I mention it was the summer? And it was, she's a great Pyrenees and the hair and her breath, windows were down, she gets carsick, she vomited at least three times before we were out of our town. Sarah: Having the supplies to clean up the vomit too. Because sometimes, like what my senior dog Jakey does, when we're on a winding roads, is he will vomit right where the seat belt attachment is and he'll vomit just right in that hole. So it goes to the bottom of the car and we got to pull to the side of the road, rip the car seats out to get all that vomit out. Lots of fun. Better to be prepared for those kinds of things than be surprised by them. Kathy: Yeah, and I was always the vomit cleaner upper.  It'd be like, “You wanted the dog. It's your dog.” Sarah: Yeah. So I'm always the one cleaning up the vomit or the diarrhea. Kathy: Our dogs like their crates, because at home they like their crates. It's a safe spot. It's a cozy spot. And they're used to traveling in a crate in the car.  And some dogs like their crates at home, but you put in the car they're like, “What the hell?” So there's that acclimation period where you start putting a crate in the car and feed them and going for trips. It's like, I'm a crate proponent, and if you don’t do a crate, you do a seat belt. But I feel like, you have to keep your dog safe and you safe in the event of a crash so that they don't catapult into you or your passengers. Sarah: Yeah, and the way that you can prep for that is, you know you have the road trip coming up even, and I understand, you know, it's a pain in the butt to have the crates in the car all the time and in the trunk or in the backseat, whatever it is. But the week before, maybe two weeks before, put the crate in the car and every time you need to go somewhere with your dog, whether it's class at the school, the vet, the whatever, you're going out for a hike. For that week or two beforehand, practice being in the crate when traveling so that the crate doesn't have to be in there all the time. I understand it can be a pain, but at least set your dog up for success and have him practice it a week or two before you need to go on that long road trip. Kathy: Especially if your dog is used to getting in a car and going to the vet or someplace they don’t like to go. So do some road trips where it winds up being a field, or going for a swim in the lake, or just getting out and having steak or a hamburger. Like, go to the drive-through, because I want the dog to say, “There is a very good chance that this is going to end in something awesome!” Versus what they think now, which is, “This is going to end something terrible.” Also, when I’m using a crate, I cover it with a sheet. Obviously there's airflow and it's not summer and there's still getting AC. But I just like to take away their sight of things because I had a border collie he made himself carsick because he'd watch the cars go by and he’d whip his head around, and he’d be, like, “Waah!” All right, so there's so many things to talk about. Let's talk about what's in your wallet. Remember that commercial, “What's in your wallet?” What's in my wallet is a recent photo of my dog, a copy of his health certificate. I don't get them in sooner than 10 days, so I have that. I also have the emergency 24/7 vet that's going to be in the area that I'm visiting. Sarah: Yep. Super important. Kathy: Prep that ahead. And I, well it's not in my wallet. It's in the glove box in an envelope or it's zip tied to the crate in a clear plastic, sheet. You know those binder sheets for kids at school? And that's the emergency contact info. And that is something that everybody should get in the lesson sheet library. Sarah: Yup. We have it in there. If you guys can't find it, let us know. We'll send you it. But that has all that information on both the front on my crates. It has a dog's name, four different emergency contact people, any medications, any behavioral issues that if a first responder needs to know if your dog is really fearful, you know, if they should be left in the crate if possible. And it also goes into saying, “Please don't bring my dog to a shelter or a pound, please bring them to the nearest boarding facility. I will pay all fees...whatever,” has their normal vet's information. So that, if there is an injury, they can call your vet and get all the information they need. I think that’s all. Kathy: And about a zillion people that he can call. Sarah: Yeah! There's like four or five, I think there's four different spots for contact people on there. I would make sure that you have people in your home area and then people where you're going as well, depending on where you are in the road trip, where you might need help for your dog. Kathy: And I do crates too. I mean, I do seat belts as well, so it's on the front of the crate. If your dog is gonna seat belt, it goes in the glove box, it goes in there and it's in an envelope marked Dog Emergency Info, because first responders will look in your purse and your wallet and your glove box for information on you. I also crate my dogs with their leash on. They’re in a crate with a leash on, they're in the seat belt with leash on,  because, again, in the event of an emergency, I know that the first responders are not going to be able to find the leash and put it on my dog’s collar. I want the dog ready to go and get out of there as fast as possible. This all came really clear to me when I was down in Florida. I would say it was 1990 I had a student and she had two cattle dogs. They were amazing, and her favorite was Wanda. And Wanda sat in the front seat with her and then her other dog, it was a puppy, the naughty puppy, he was in a crate. And she was in a very bad car accident. So bad, as a matter of fact, that they had to airlift her to a trauma center, but they couldn't, because her dog was guarding her. And the dog that was in the front seat, not in a seat belt, not in a crate. And so what they had to do was they had to noose the dog. They had to wait for animal control, it was about a half an hour, it’s on I95, it's crazy traffic, and they can't help her because this dog is trying to get to them. So they have to wait for animal control to noose the dog and take the dog out, and then get her. Sarah: Not only to delay her getting medical care. But think of how terrifying that experience was for the dog who was stuck in the front seat. All these strangers in, like, fire suits are trying to like touch her owner. The dog was guarding the owner. I mean that could have been resolved with the crate. The puppy in the crate in the back was fine. If that dog had been a crate, yeah, it would've still been really scary experience, but it would not have been THAT traumatizing. Kathy: Yeah. It was terrible. And having gone to a lot of dog shows, because when I competed, it was in obedience, and I've seen the rollovers, I've seen that crap. I mean, basically you're in the car, there's some degree of risk. I wear a seat belt, my kids wear a seat belt and so my dog is going to wear something to keep them safe as well. And I'm just, I'm really strong about it. And I have a lot of students who are in law enforcement and they always say, “I wish every single person who traveled with a dog understood this and followed this protocol because it would make our jobs so much easier.” Because, honestly, if the police officer or the EMT wants to go in the car and your dog is growling, like, they're going to have to choose themselves. Because what are they going to do? Get bitten? Sarah: Yup. And with that goes the ID tags and if your dog is micro-chipped, making sure that information is up to date before you start traveling. Because a lot of times, you can do, like, the yearly update on the microchips each year. But call them and double check, because if for some reason the dog's collar breaks, the leash comes off, whatever, in an accident and they don't have the tags on them, the only way a local vet or shelter is going to be able to ID them is with that microchip. Kathy: Exactly. And make sure the collar says “Reward” and has the cell number on it. And I was talking about that in another podcast. I don't want somebody to know my dog's name, because my dogs are really well trained, and they're super cool. I think. Yeah, like, if somebody was like, “Hey, I think I want a dog and look, this is so convenient!”  Sarah: No one would want my dogs. Kathy: Well then, you just put their real names Sarah: I’ll put their real names. Kathy: One number off. Sarah: Sure. If you can pick up the leash, you can have them. Good luck! Kathy: It's the Jack challenge. I love that! Hashtag (#jackchallenge)! So we put “Reward” because I feel like it motivates people to call you and give the dog back. And, again, a microchip, if you have one in...the guy who gets your dog doesn't have a microchip wand, so I want somebody to call me in real time and not wait until a vet office opens the next morning, or on Monday if it's a weekend. And the reason I have a picture in my wallet is because you think you're going to have it on your phone, but if you lost your phone, or the phone is dead, right? You’ve got to have something physical or I'm sure you could get somebody's computer and go on Facebook and get a picture of your dog, but how much time are you losing? And that's I think another show that we should do, Sarah, on how to recover a lost dog. It's a good topic. Write that down as one of the next ones we do. I think that's going to be great. Sarah: Absolutely. All right, so the next one is something that you can maybe talk from experience on if you've ever done this, but, so the bag etiquette. So traveling with your dog, if they are, I know you did a lot of work with, if the dog was in like a small carry on bag, like a traveling bag. What is the etiquette for that? Kathy: My dogs have traveled both ways. The majority of my competition dogs we're flying under the plane. And travel back in the 80s, a little bit different. I mean it wasn't, there was no TSA. It was, like, you could bring a chicken or two or five. Nobody really cared, you could do whatever you want. But there were rules that I followed for myself about my dogs, and so the first thing was I made sure that they didn’t have breakfast on a morning flight. I also chose a flight because I was in Florida that was the coolest part of the day. So, making sure it was a cool part of the day where I arrived. So a lot of times I was going out to the West Coast or there was a national in Vegas, I picked a night flight out of West Palm, so I would get into that area at night. It wasn't so much your destination temperature as where you were going to take them. The dog would be on the tarmac, and you didn't want them to overheat. Plus, there are regulations about how hot or how cool it can be in order to fly dog. On top of the crate I would put a FedEx clear pouch and I put a note in it that said, “My name is Cookie,” and I taped cookies on top. And the reason I did it, because none of my dogs were ever named Cookie, but the word cookie to them was really interesting. And I didn't want to have their name because it would be like, “Rover, Rover, Rover, Rover,” and it might be negative, right? So my dogs got treats, everybody's saying cookie, and that they loved it. I didn't put water in a bowl, it was like water, liquid water. I would freeze these little plastic things that they had in the crates if I had a dog who wouldn't eat it and I pop that in right before they took the dog. I would not board the plane until I saw the crate loaded. And a lot of times I would get into it with the desk agents, or at the gate agents, they'd be like, “You need to get on the plane.” And I'm like, “Not until I see my dog.” And they're like, “Oh, it’s going to leave without you.” I'm like,”Well then you'd be leaving without my dog.” And then I show him a picture of my dog and they're like, “Oh!” Then my next stop, once I got on the plane was a hard left and go to see the captain because again, back then, you could basically try to fly the plane. They were, like, “Yeah, go for it. Sit in the cockpit, take a picture!” It was crazy. And I'd say, “Hey, my dog is on board and here's a picture.” And they would be, like, “Oh, my God! I have a dog, too!” And they’d make sure that the dog was down there and the temperature was right. So your dog is the last thing to get loaded and the first thing to come off. So I’d make sure my seat was an aisle, so I could, you know, whip up some tears and get them to let me out first “That’s my dog! I’m so worried!” So that's how you fly when your dog is going underneath. It's completely stressful and it never gets better. And if you have a dog who's bomb proof, they can go. Oh! Also I would put cotton in their ears because you see the guys up on the tarmac, they have those heads cause it's really loud for your dog. So you pop those in and get them a little bit of relief. I also did a really big blanket, so they can hide their head under it. And my dogs flew like pros. They loved it. They were, they came out with like “Eh, it was a great flight, didn't get any in-service stuff. I'm okay.” Some dogs are not suited for that. So then, if I'm going to fly a dog, like on book tour, I took a dog named Danny with me, and I had a Sherpa bag for him, and that is a brand name, and I really like that brand, very sturdy. And a week before a book tour, which meant that I had to fly to a different city for two weeks and I took him, he was seven months old. It was crazy. He was just perfect, but I was crazy for taking someone’s dog.  Sarah: Barely potty trained! Kathy: And then I just had him at his house with his owners. He would jump in and out of that bag and great things would happen. So he's acclimated to it. I had them carry him around the house and then he gets used to it. Being carried in it. Sarah: That sensation of being carried in it, yeah. Kathy: If they just go in a stationary, that's one thing. But when it's over your shoulder and they're jostling around, that's a whole different thing. So you've got to make sure that you get them to that as well.  Sarah: Yep. Kathy: Alright. So that is what you have for ID. That is how you get them in a Sherpa bag. Let’s talk about barking. Because I’ve been on a flight where dogs were in bags barking. We're not even going to cover the service dogs.  Sarah: Yeah, let's not go there. They're not on this episode. Kathy: Not on this episode, but we will. If your dog is going to be on a plane and in a bag, and I know it's not a service dog, it's just traveling in the cabin, your responsibility is to make sure your dog is a good traveler. Barking the whole four hour flight ,or six hour flight is not okay! Sarah: It’s awful  Kathy: And if it's barking that long, it's not happy. So do your homework and get better at doing homework and maybe make the decision that your dog doesn't have to travel with you. I'm like, unless you're moving. Maybe they stay home and you have your vacation and then they're much happier that way. So that's how I feel about that. I just got a Gunner Kennel. Sarah: You did?! Oh, we didn't talk about that,  Kathy: I know you’re someone who appreciates that. Sarah: Oh God, it's okay. One day, one day. Right now what I've got is all right. So basically what I have for my two dogs are Ruff Tuff Kennels or Ruff Land Kennels. Another really great brand for if you're looking for a crash proof crate is a Gunner Kennel, like Kathy just mentioned. There's also Impact Cates. There are a bunch of options. Kathy: Vario Cages Sarah: Vario Cages. Yep, that's another one.  Kathy: Orion.  Sarah: Orion's are good. Do your research. Don't just get a plain wire or a plain plastic crate. They'll just crush with your dog in it. So make sure that if you are looking for a crash proof crate, you do your research and you make sure that you find a kennel that can withstand a crash, basically. Kathy: Now let's talk about sticker shock. Yeah. You're probably in your mind saying, “Well, the Midwest Wire crate was like a hundred bucks,” and the plastic Vari kennel, not Verio, Vari Kennel. That two piece looks like a clam and you put together little screws that was like $89, like, “Oh, maybe we can invest in this.” And then you go and you find out that your a medium G1 Gunner Crate is going to be $579. Now, once you pick yourself up off the floor, I want you to be realistic and understand that if you're in a crash and your dog is injured, you are walking in the door to an emergency vet clinic with $1,000 on the table. And it just goes from there. Like, I am telling you, we're not making this shit up. Like, it’s expensive to have a dog with an injury! Plus, forget the finances. This is the beloved pet for you and your family, and your responsibility is to keep it safe. So, no pressure. But yeah, when you get something it should be... like, I see people all the time with wire crates in the back of their car and those, those fabric tent crates, they...don’t even pretend! Sarah: It's not the safest thing. Insider tip! So if you are going to get the Ruff Land Kennels, they're probably the most cost effective version of all the crash proof ones. L.L. Bean puts them on sale for like 20% off every once in a while. So if you scroll about their website, get an email notification for when they go on sale, you can get them for 20% off. Another great place is Facebook marketplace. Or, you know, eBay, Craigslist, you can find used ones as well if you are looking for them. But it is like Kathy said, it is so worth the investment not only because, like, I love my dogs so much and I don't ever want them to get hurt in an accident, but also, like she said, like when you walk into the vet's office, if you did have them in a wire crate or a plastic Vari Kennel that just crushed them inside of it in the accident, your expenses are going to be beyond what it costs to get the crash proof kennel. Kathy: Easily. Sarah: Easily. If you’re smart and have pet insurance. Even with that. Kathy: There is a Facebook group that you should all join. It's called Dog Sport Vehicle Ideas and Setups. Dog Sport Vehicle Ideas and Setups. It's amazing. And they talk about this stuff they talk about how to set it up. They even have, by car model, files where you could see what people did in their cars to put in the crates and still have room for people in the car. Sarah: Yeah. Facebook is a huge resource for that kind of thing. So we've gone over, alright, so you'll say you got the crash proof. Great. Or you've got the same thing with the seat belts. Just do your research, make sure that they're safe. So let’s go into it when we go into car trips now, what to do on the road? Kathy: Yeah, let's go into car trips. Hopefully you've taught your dog to potty on leash. The bane of my existence is people with yards who've never taught their dogs to potty on leash. And then they go on a trip and the dog won’t go to the bathroom and they're at the, you know, the side of the road, pull over and use the bathrooms. And then there's a field for your dog to go and their holding the leash and the dog won't go. And the dog, he's like, “You need to move over there for me to go.” And we talked about this in the puppy potty training podcast, too. Boy, that's hard to say. Where we talk about the first nine months of your puppy's life, most of his potty experiences should be on a leash. So he gets used to going six feet away from you. Sarah: Water intake. Kathy: Yes. Let's talk about what type of water. Like, if I'm traveling, every dog show I went to, I got bottled water, distilled water, because I know that some dogs are sensitive to what water they drink and you don't want to go, especially if you're on holiday. Right? So your going to your aunt’s or your cousin's house, and they're all so happy to see the dog. And then your dog has diarrhea for four days. And it's because of the water change. So I always get distilled water. Sarah: Yeah. It's not something a pet owner would necessarily think of. Oh, you know, the water's making their stomach hurt, not something you necessarily think of. Definitely bring some bottles of water, like you said. Don't rely on, like, using your mother's dog's food for your dog. An abrupt switch in the dog's food like that. You will have stomach or GI issues without it. It's a very rare that a dog can switch food like that quickly like that. So absolutely bring your dogs food with you. So depending on what you feed them, whether it's kibble or raw, kibble, obviously, is an easy way, is an easy thing to bring. If you do bring raw, what I like to do is I bring a specific cooler just for their raw food. A lot of times I'll shove it all into Kongs or any kind of food toy where you can freeze the food in there so that when we are traveling, if we're doing multi-day trips, it gives them something to do in a crate and kind of earn their food and makes them work for it. So having those frozen in just a cooler in the car is a really easy way to keep your dog busy. What other food tips do you have? Kathy: You know, if you wanted to bring enough food for the trip on the first day and you had previously scouted out where you can get this food. Or maybe you have somebody you're going to get the food for you. You could also ship food. So if it's dry, so you can have a bag of it. I feel like the raw thing, it's so mainstream now, or almost mainstream that you could look at the brand that you use online and find out where there's a dealer near the person you're going to be with. I'd also get your vet recommendation on things you should bring in case of that emergency. Like, diarrhea or vomiting or whatever, because there's gotta be a first aid emergency kit with you in the car and you should also move that into when you're at somebody's house. Sarah: Yup. Okay. So let's say if you were staying in a hotel room, what are some things that you had to, I think that you've, you've told me a pretty good story about making sure to check under the beds when you go into hotel rooms. Kathy: Yes. This I learned from my dog show time, because it was every weekend we were at a different sleazy hotel. My favorite one, remember there was a chain called Ramada?  Sarah: Yeah.  Kathy: Is there still a chain called Ramada?  Sarah: Might be. I don’t know. Kathy: Ramada Inn. Anyway, apparently this, this particular one went under and the owner just unplugged a few of the letters of the sign. And so it was the “Rama” Inn.  Sarah: Oh, my God. Kathy: That's what I pulled up to at night. I like the, “Oh, this is gonna be bad.” So one of the things I would do is, before I take my dogs into the room, I would have them in the car with whoever it was traveling with me and I would go up in the room and I had a flashlight because we didn't have cell phones with lights on them...or cell phones at all. And I would get on my hands and knees and I would flashlight the entire room. Not just the ceiling lights but the flashlight. Because you would be surprised how many pieces of medication I would find in hotel rooms. I'd find them at the nightstand next to the bed. I’d find them in the bathroom, under the bed. I'd find rat poisoning. I'd find insect traps. Like, so much crap you cannot believe, because housekeeping, I mean unless you're at the four seasons, is probably not up to the standards of keeping your dog safe.  Sarah: Yep.  Kathy: Also, when I was in the room, if I had to take a shower, my dog would be crated. I'm just not going to risk it. And that goes for somebody's house, too, because, you know, you go to visit your sister and maybe she had a friend over. Maybe they take Xanax or Prozac or whatever the heck they take to get through these kinds of visits. And so they're going to drop stuff, too. Blood pressure medication. I have a friend who's an emergency room nurse and she's hard to talk to because she's seen everything kill something. Like, “Oh, see that paper clip? Somebody choked on that!” I'm like, “Stop talking to me!” But I am that... I'm the equivalent of that in dog world, because I've seen it all. And even though it's a fluke, one is too many. So do your due diligence, whether it's a hotel room, whether it's your family's house, you've got to be alert for this stuff because it happens. And I've seen it happen. I told you we're going to start a show. There's a show called Adam Ruins Everything and he blows up myths. I'm going to make one, Kathy Ruins Everything. Sarah: Everything About Dog Ownership That Could Go Wrong, Kathy's Seen It. Kathy: Yeah. Yeah. Kathy Ruins Trips With Your Dog. Sarah: Here are all of the things that could go wrong when on a trip with your dog. But I mean, I'd rather, I'd rather know from like, you've been in this for 30 years. Like, I'd rather know from someone, all the things that could go wrong so that when I go to travel with my dog, I'm doing everything I can to keep them safe. Yes, there could still be like some crazy unicorn thing that happens, but at least I know that I checked under the bed for that, you know, leftover medication or whatever, and my dog didn't find it and get sick. Kathy: Okay. Wait, how about this? Bring multiple leashes. Sarah: Yeah. What if they chew their leash? Or what if it breaks or you know, there could be 10 million things that could happen. Alight, you and I, we're about to go down a rabbit hole. You and I could go over all the things that could go wrong. You know, you've seen my training bag. I have extras of everything. Kathy: Yeah. I've seen people take belts off their body and put it through a dog’s collar. I saw a guy with a shoelace! Sarah: Yeah. We're not even, yeah. We're not even going over like how you should be training your dog while traveling with them. We're just going over basic, basic, like, safety stuff just to make sure you and your dog make it through the trip successfully. Kathy: Everything to keep your dog safe. We have so many topics out. We're just going to sit there one day and do a 12 hour recording session. Sarah: Yeah. I'm coming up again first week of December. So maybe we'll bang out like six or seven of them. Kathy: Yeah. And it’ll be great because it'll be in the same room. Yeah. And then our audio, will only be one file.  Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Kathy: You get ideas, I get ideas from this and you're writing them down, I know. But we want to hear ideas from people who are listening to, so we want to know if you'd like this format. What your suggestions are, what your topics are, what do you want to hear about? And we'll talk about it. Because, I always like to say my brain, as far as dog stuff, it's like this giant library and I don't always go down all the aisles, but the books are still there. And if you remind me, I'll remember and I'll go down there and all this stuff will pop up more than you thought was possible.  Sarah: Exactly.  Kathy: Alright, so we're good? Sarah: Yeah.  Kathy: As always, if you like what you hear, jump over to whatever subscription service you downloaded from and like, rate, subscribe, tell a friend, and share this episode somewhere to help spread the word so we can continue to create an awesome community of dog lovers and learners. Happy training, everyone!

Welcome back to the Banowetz Marketing Podcast! Today we are back with special guest, LeeAnn Eddins. On this episode LeeAnn describes how branding is boring, if you are doing it right. Transcription of the Podcast: – [voiceover] The Banowetz podcast. – [Sarah] You’re ready? – Yeah. Hello again. – We are back with LeeAnn Eddins, […]

Roxan McDonald has dedicated herself to helping people find their voice both on the page and in their lives. She currently leads writing groups in Santa Cruz, Carmel, and Monterey. Roxan co-teaches with Ellen Bass at Esalen Institute. For fourteen years she was on the management team of two alternative high schools focused on serving at risk youth. Roxan taught creative writing, poetry and memoir writing in alternative schools and produced eleven anthologies of student writing. She’s also the force behind @spiritual_AF on Instagram. Roxan and Sarah discuss the healing power of silly videos and spirituality of poop jokes, starting with your “why” and making it a practice to check your ego every day. Let’s be friends! ~Sarah You can find me in the following places... Website: www.headhearttherapy.com/podcast Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WoundedHealr/ https://www.facebook.com/HeadHeartTherapy/ Instagram: @headhearttherapy Twitter: @WoundedHealr @HeadHeart_Chi