Podcasts about bad theology kills

You may know her from the viral video "How Can We Win?" which rocketed her into spotlight right around the same time the BLM movement gained a lot of traction. She's a writer, a speaker and an activist, it's Kimberly Latrice Jones! Follow her everywhere @KimberlyLatriceJones, and get the book "How We Can Win: History, Race, and Changing the Money Game That's Rigged." ... If you are interested in working on your spiritual life, need some direction, set up a call with me! thekevingarcia.com/coaching. Grab a copy of both my books: Bad Theology Kills and What Makes You Bloom, available now! And leave us a five ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ star review! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We're back, you heauxs! In this episode, I'm joined by filmmaker Jason Ikeler, the director of the upcoming documentary Safe for the Whole Family. We dive into Jason's personal and professional journey, the inspiration behind this powerful film, and how evangelical media shaped—and often distorted—a generation's understanding of faith, identity, and culture. Plus, I'm reintroducing myself and sharing what's new in my world: exploring how we heal, what's coming up for A Tiny Revolution, and the incredible new ways we're connecting over at The Crowded Table, my Patreon community. Don't miss this episode packed with raw, honest conversation and a whole lot of heart.

This week's episode is a recording of a sermon/lecture that Elle gave back in May at Paradox Church in Redlands (see their website here). In the speech, Elle reflects on some of the unique ways that queer people are often harmed by especially high control religions. As a spiritual person and one who practiced rigid religion for many years, Elle has experiences with both being negatively impacted by religious trauma and also being a perpetrator as a Christian leader. Watch a video version of the sermon with Elle's visuals here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZpnn09daAY&t=14s Learn more about Kevin Garcia's work on religious harm, including his book "Bad Theology Kills" here: https://www.thekevingarcia.com/ To learn more about inviting Elle to come speak for your event or organization, please visit her website: https://estherloewen.com/speaking As always, to learn more about Elle and her work, or to explore the possibility of accessing psychotherapy from her, please visit her website at ⁠⁠www.estherloewen.com⁠⁠. For constructive feedback on the show, to ask questions, or to get access to the Fierce Femmes support group, please email ⁠⁠twatpodcasting@gmail.com⁠

Today, we talk with theologian and activist Jesse Wheeler about the rotten fruit of the West's theology in Palestine and the broader region. We get into:-        How everyday Christians can tell the difference between good and bad theology-        Examples of the fruit of bad Western theology in Palestine and the region of the Middle East/North Africa-        How we must acknowledge the horrible effects of the Zionism on both sides of the political aisle, even while rejecting Trump-        What the political witness of Christians should be with respect to how we handle power-        And after the interview, Sy and Jonathan discuss the Christian nationalism and bigotry in faith leaders' response to controversies at the OlympicsMentioned in the Episode-            Our anthology, Keeping the Faith-            Jesse's essay from the anthology, “Bad Theology Kills”-            Jesse's book, Serving a Crucified King-            Jesse's organization, Friends of Sabeel North America-            The new Institute for the Study of Christian ZionismCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Jesse Wheeler: The Kingdom of God, or Christians, or those who would seek to be citizens of the kingdom, cannot live in such a way that emulates the kingdoms of this world. What that entails is, I call it the proper use of power. It's not like physical versus spiritual as sometimes we try to kind of get. It's like, no, it's actually how we understand power and why Jesus through going to the cross, he was basically saying, “Okay, empire, the forces of violence and hatred and exploitation, give me your all.” And he took it to the cross and took it on the cross, and he rejected the violent option.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting Injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. We have a great show for you today, including an interview with another one of our authors from our anthology on Christianity and politics in the era of Trump. This one's on how regular Christians can discern between good and bad theology, and how we can see bad theology playing out in the Middle East. Plus afterwards, hear our thoughts on the interview, and we'll be doing our segment, Which Tab is Still Open, diving deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. This week it's all about the Olympic opening ceremony controversy, trans athletes at the games and the White Christian persecution complex.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. We should probably say non-trans athletes at the Olympic Games.Jonathan Walton: I was literally about to be like, “and not?” [laughs] but…Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, that's part of the persecution complex. But we will get to that folks, don't worry. You will hear the whole story on how ridiculous it is. Before we get there, a quick reminder, please, everybody consider going to KTFPress.com and becoming a paid subscriber. We will not be able to continue doing this work beyond this election season if we do not get a lot more paid subscribers. So if you want to see this work continue, please go there and sign up. That gets you all the bonus episodes of this show. It gets you access to our monthly Zoom subscriber chats and more community features. So please KTFPress.com, become a paid subscriber.If you already are a paid subscriber, consider upgrading to a founding member level and please share widely with your friends and family to anyone who you think might be interested in joining our community here. Thank you so much all. All right Jonathan, tell everybody about our guest this week.Jonathan Walton: Yes, we have the amazing Jesse Wheeler. For almost three years, Jesse has served as executive administrator and development director for Friends of Sabeel North America, an interdenominational Christian organization seeking justice and peace in the holy land through education, advocacy, and nonviolent action. Prior to that, he served just shy of seven years in Beirut, Lebanon as a project's manager for the Institute of Middle East Studies at the Arab Baptist Theological Seminary. He also ran the Master of Religion in the Middle East and North African studies program, working also as support instructor for MENA history, politics and economics.He has served in Nazarene, evangelical free and Presbyterian churches, and he holds a PG certificate in baptistic histories and theologies from the University of Manchester, a master of divinity with an emphasis in Islamic studies from Fuller Theological Seminary and a BA in diplomatic in Middle Eastern history with a minor in political economics from the University of California Berkeley. Jesse's wife Heidi is Palestinian-American, and they have three amazing boys. Now, Jesse's essay in our anthology was called Bad Theology Kills: How We Justify Killing Arabs. We actually published that at one point on KTFPress.com, so we'll have the link in our show notes to that. And you can get the entire anthology with all 36 essays at Keepingthefaithbook.com. That link will also be in the show notes.Sy Hoekstra: So we did this interview like we did a lot of our interviews a few months ago, at this point [laughs]. We've been releasing these slowly. This one we did in April, which is relevant. I only say that now because we talk about Biden a decent amount, and when it comes to Palestine, which is what we're talking about when we mention Biden, there's not a lot of distance between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.Jonathan Walton: Nope.Sy Hoekstra: So [laughs], I just wanted to note that up top so that you know that effectively all the content, all the things that we actually say on the subject don't really change given the candidate switch. But that disclaimer behind us, here we go with the interview with Jesse Wheeler.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Jesse Wheeler, thank you so much for being with us today on Shake the Dust. We really, really appreciate it.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah, no, thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be with you guys.How Everyday Christians Can Tell Good Theology from Bad TheologyJonathan Walton: Yeah. We were privileged to publish your essay in our anthology, and you gave us a relatively simple and accessible test for judging the value of the theology that we hear from leaders. Could you talk a little bit about the fruit test?Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. The fruit test, basically, it's taken straight from the Sermon on the Mount. It's no secret that there are different theological systems that exist in the world, different schools of thought, different ways of thinking, and it can be overwhelming, actually. And I'm even thinking of either my own context back when I was in seminary and sort of some of the destabilizing aspects of it, or when I was working at a seminary and working with students who are introduced to new ideas. And it can be overwhelming even epistemologically overwhelming when they're getting ideas that sort of might butt up against core ideas that maybe they were grown up with that are core parts of their identity. It can be very destabilizing.And this question of is there a way to distinguish good theology quote, from bad theology quote- unquote, if, I mean, those are very reductionist [laughs] the terminology itself, of course. But I think it comes straight from the Sermon on the Mount actually. And Jesus in the concluding sections of Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 7, Jesus gives this, “By your fruit you will recognize them.” How to tell true prophets from false prophets on the basis of their fruit. He doesn't necessarily say, go get a doctorate in systematic, [laughs] in dogmatics to determine whether they are… He's like, look at the fruit of what is happening.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: And it's for normal people too. This is like normal people without massive theology to say, “Hey, look at this. I see that the fruit of this is leading to hurt and harm and destruction, or the fruit of this is leading to healing and health and flourishing.” It's not to denigrate or dismiss theology. I mean, the title of my chapter is Bad Theology Kills. I think Theology is important.Jonathan Walton: ExactlyJesse Wheeler: [laughs] It's a litmus test for assessing theology. And right there, Jesus chapters five, six, and the first part of seven, he gives a whole list of instructions of teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, and then concludes with, “Therefore do to others what you would want others to do for you. This summarizes the law and the prophets,” which is of course, the scriptures. Basically saying, if you wanna know what the scriptures teach, what God is expecting of you, do for others. And even in other parts of the gospels, when people ask, “Oh, what's the greatest commandment?” And he comes back to, “Love the Lord your God,” it's the Shema.And then right on adds it, and your neighbor as yourself taking that from the Leviticus. And he's like, there you go. Basically says that and then immediately goes into this section on two roads, easy road and narrow road. And then right after that talks about the false prophets who will come, who might speak eloquently, lovely, and yet the fruit is rotten.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jesse Wheeler: The fruit is rotten.Sy Hoekstra: Absolutely.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Out of the three of us, I feel like I am the one in the position to most appreciate your point, that you don't need a big theological education to apply this test [laughs]. Because for me and for a lot of the people listening, if you don't have a master's in divinity like Jesse, you haven't been doing ministry and Bible studies and everything for years and years like Jonathan, the more you learn about how little as kind of lay people we know about the whole wide world of theological academics and whatever, the more you realize, I don't feel equipped [laughs]. And so this is, I think, like Jonathan said, it's accessible. It's something that the average person can apply and have some success [laughs] according to Jesus, trying to figure out what's good and bad.Theologies that Have Born Rotten Fruit in the Middle East and North AfricaSy Hoekstra: And then I would like to hear from you, in your work doing work with advocacy in churches in the MENA, in the Middle East and North Africa, sometimes abbreviated MENA region, what have you seen bearing bad fruit? What kinds of theologies have you seen bearing bad fruit?Jesse Wheeler: So, I mean, I could start with the three I listed in my chapter, but I think I kind of want to say like, there is so, so much misunderstanding and prejudice and straight up bigotry that's filtered through a theological system that attempts to justify it.Colonialist PaternalismJesse Wheeler: But I'm going to start with the three I listed in my chapter, and the first one, colonialist paternalism.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Jesse Wheeler: It's a theology of colonial supremacy. Why one person gets to make the decisions for another person, gets to invade another country, gets to conquer, but it's couched in a paternalistic language, often. In a this is for your own good language.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: It's the, I'm not going to attempt to do the French, but the civilizing mission [laughs], hand in hand with the White man's burden from back in the 19th century of bringing our civilization, our Christianity, on one hand… I mean, sometimes it was the church and sometimes it was full on those modern secularists springing [laughs] their enlightened, was just, it was hand in hand with the colonial project too. And that's actually what muddies up the water sometimes in our discourses, especially on more left side of the aisle discourses [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely.Jesse Wheeler: Because you go from there and you go into speaking right in the Middle East, right after World War I, when you had the three competing promises, you had deals, you had The Balfour Declaration on the one hand, you had Hussein McMahon promising the Arabs of the Hajj, the like the Hussein family, a state, an Arab state, if they would help fight against the Ottoman Turks. And then you had the Sykes-Picot which was basically France and Britain getting together and saying, “Okay, here's how we're going to divide up the spoils.” [laughs]Sy Hoekstra: And the Balfour Declaration was Britain's intent to make a Zionist state.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. Basically a Zionist state in historic Palestine. And so, but you get into afterwards and you had the 14 points, and Wilson came in with, “Oh, we're gonna create a whole new world of peace and…”Sy Hoekstra: The League of Nations.Jesse Wheeler: The League of Nations, yeah. And the mandate system, like the fruit of 2that, where basically it's like Sykes-Picot. It's like Britain takes control, France takes control of Lebanon, Syria, Britain, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, and they had Egypt too. So it's just, but it's couched in this language of, it's for your own benefit. We are here to provide guidance to these native populations who need to be trained in the ways of democracy.Jonathan Walton: It's framed as benevolence. Like this is a good thing.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a good thing. It's like we are colonizing you for your good thing. Of course, land extraction, resource extraction [laughs], all of these marks of colonialism are part of this, right, but this is how it's justified, how it's sold, how it's…Sy Hoekstra: But the theology, like basically you're saying there were always churches and people propping up those colonialist ideas in the Middle East with basically the stamp of approval of the Bible or the church.Jesse Wheeler: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And it's not a total. I do need to make the point that sometimes the missionaries were very much… actually in the Middle East and in, or very much part of the colonial project, sometimes they actually would actually fight and counter the colonial project in certain ways, even though they were also facilitated by it. But yeah, these theologies, the colonialist paternalism. But to continue on, you have a theology of the Cold War developed almost of democracy and we'll bomb your entire country, but we will protect you from communism [laughs], you know.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: To very much part of my life, the war on terror. We're bringing democracy to the Middle East.Sy Hoekstra: Right. I was going to say that just sounds like George W. Bush, like everything that they were saying post World War I. It hasn't changed a lot.Jesse Wheeler: It has not. It has not. And so that's the first one.Henotheism: My Good God Will Defeat Your Bad GodJesse Wheeler: The second one in my book I describe as, I take this term from a scholar Joseph Cumming, he's a comparative theologian of Christianity and Islam, but he calls, he speaks of Henotheism.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jesse Wheeler: Which is sort of your tribal deity. I don't want… people push back on using tribal as a negative, but sort of the sense of like God is our God and we are the holy ones, and their God is a demon, and we will defeat them and destroy them. And so I even take this quote again from this, the war and terror era where a general speaking about fighting this warlord, whatever, in North Africa, talking about, “We have God on our side, and their god's a demon, and that's why we're gonna win and be victorious.” And this is so much in situations of conflict and situations, you very much have this sense of, “we are the good, our God is the good, they're the evil. And so because they're so evil, any violence is justified against them.”Sy Hoekstra: And that dates like straight back to the crusades.Jonathan Walton: Yep.Jesse Wheeler: Oh, yeah. This is crusades [laughs]. Exactly. Exactly. It's a crusader theology, but it's also when you really dig into it and you ask, well, these are supposed monotheists. And isn't the whole point of monotheism that there's actually one God for everybody, and thus it's to turn the God of the cosmos, the monotheistic God into a territorial idol.Settler Colonialism/ZionismJesse Wheeler: I'll move on to the third one, which I think is very relevant in that what I listed as manifest destiny. But it's the settler colonial theology, where it's different from the colonialist paternalism, because this is really, it's a theology that justifies why I deserve to go into a land, remove the indigenous people and take it for my own, basically.Sy Hoekstra: Which is the difference between settler colonialism and like metropolis, distant ruler colonialism.Jesse Wheeler: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And Jim Wallace, once he wrote, the most controversial statement I ever wrote talking about something he previously wrote was how America was founded on the genocide of one people and the enslavement of another. There was a time in my life where hearing words like that would be so deeply, deeply disorienting for me. My identity, my understanding of who I am. I think part of that discomfort, which is very real, because that's part of my background, and is I think what drives people to someone like Trump. Less the logic behind it, but the emotional, the emotions of feeling safe to have this champion on my side. But that's the simple truth. I mean [laughs], there's this belief that we are god's, we have this divine mandate to come into this new territory. And so I'm talking here about America, but of course this happened all over the world, actually. France and Algeria.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: That was so utterly destructive of traditional Algerian society. And France would even talk about, “Algeria is fully France. We are one.” And so I don't understand why these people are rebelling because we've given them democracy and freedom, when it's like, no, you've completely disrupted their entire civilization and ruled, but how it affects the news, you have the whole Charlie Hebdo incidents and these attacks in France. And this was violent murderous acts, yes. And morally they should be condemned, but you have to see them in their historical context [laughs] of this, the Algerian conflict. But South Africa, this was a deeply theological Dutch Calvinist movement. Even Argentina was a settler colonial context as well.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, most things in the Western hemisphere are [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. But in a way of the natives were cleared out more.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yes. I see what you're saying. Right. In Argentina, yes.Jesse Wheeler: Compared to like Brazil, just to the north. And then of course, Zionism is right in there with that. I think it's a theology that justifies why one group gets to come in and displace another group. And those three are three big ones.The Rotten Fruit of Colonialism and Zionism is on Both Sides of the Political AisleJonathan Walton: Yeah. I think those three, if we could hold them together as we press into the conversation, all of them are relevant. As we kind of move from the anthology into the present day. So in 2020 you wrote, “If our task is to examine the fruit and avoid falling prey to seductive rhetoric, it is crucial to note that from the vantage point of the Middle East, Republican drones don't look or act much differently than Democrat drones. Biden's record on the Iraq War or Israel-Palestine, while not as appalling or destructive as that of the Republicans is nevertheless quite bad. He's the only viable choice put before us on election day, yet we must remain vigilant in holding a potential Biden administration to account in the weeks, months, years that follow.”Now, I don't think any of us knew when you wrote that [laughs], how relevant, prophetic and important that last sentence would be. Especially when we talk about the settler colonial ideas that you just talked about, and the deep enmeshment and entanglement with Christian Zionism and the colonial state that is Israel. So, can you… I don't know how to say this just in a simple way. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've been up to with the Friends of Sabeel over the past several months, since October 7th? And what are your thoughts about the two candidates? Because they're the same [laughter], as we look towards the election in the Middle East now. And I will also say our thoughts and prayers are with your friends and family in Palestine.Jesse Wheeler: Thank you.Jonathan Walton: And we've been praying that they would be safe in Jesus' name.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. No, thank you. I'm trying to think of where do I start digging in? First, my wife is Palestinian. Her family, still a lot of family in Bethlehem. My kids therefore are Palestinian. So I have a deep personal connection. And so to your listeners, knowing that [laughs] who is this guy? I definitely have a deep and emotional pull and connection to what's happening right now. But to go back to what you were first saying is, as you were reading that quote, that passage, and you had wrote, Biden is the only viable [laughs] candidate, my heart sank [laughs]. I'm like, “Ugh.” I understand why I said it at the time, but the listeners need to understand the depth of feeling of the pain, the sense of betrayal, especially amongst the Arab and Palestinian-American community and even wider Muslim community. The utter hurt that they felt in these last six months by everything that has happened.And so, it's so hard because Trump, just to get into the politics of, it's like I don't even need to say it. From my perspective, from where I stand, Trump is bad [laughs]. I mean, it's like he's out there saying, re-implement the Muslim ban and all completely bigoted and horrible. His son-in-law's talking about, “Oh, yeah, and there will be prime real estate in Gaza,” and [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Right.Jesse Wheeler: You know, back to settler colonialism. And yeah, it's terrifying. But the thing about Biden, and here's where I just have to say, he will in one breath talk about the importance of combating anti-Arab bigotry and Islamophobia, and in the next breath give billion more dollars of armed shipments to a country that the International Criminal Court is saying in their legal language, is very plausibly in the midst of an active genocide [laughs]. I'm not a lawyer. Sy, you're the lawyer [Sy laughs]. And it's just the duplicity is what hurts. So KTF shaped, you talk of Christian nationalism a lot and the dangers of Trump, and that largely the anthology was digging into that. And I remember writing the idolatrous fruit is rotten. I mean, that is like, the man thinks he's Jesus, I mean, or… [laughs] It's just horrifying.Sy Hoekstra: But it's still there with Biden.Jesse Wheeler: It's still there.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Jesse Wheeler: It's like when you are connected to the Middle East, either via family or study, or I lived in Lebanon for seven years, when you're paying attention, it's very hard to cheerlead one political party versus another when it comes to the American presence in the Middle East, which has been incredibly destructive.Sy Hoekstra: And we have come back to that point that you made in your essay. If you listen to a lot of episodes of this show, you will have heard Jesse's name and this point brought up before [laughs].What Should the Political Witness of Christians Be?Jonathan Walton: Mm-hmm. You explained in the essay and just now, drones do not own political parties. The bombs that are dropping are the same. The impact they have is the same, devastation is the same. So the idea of the cross to so many people around the world, particularly in the Middle East, North Africa, the MENA region is a symbol of hatred and violence when it's supposed to be like the ultimate expression of God's holy love. We are recording this just after Easter, contemplating the death and resurrection of Jesus. To you, what should the political witness be of people who carry the cross of Jesus?Self-Sacrifice and a Rejection of Imperial ViolenceJesse Wheeler: Self-Sacrificial love. Quite simply what the cross represents. But at the same time, to dig into it a little more, the cross is what? It's a instrument of imperial violence, that's what it is. There's a reason Jesus died on the cross. It is ultimately a rejection of the Imperial way. Theologically, we need to talk a lot of the kingdom of God and how the kingdom of God exists as a direct challenge to the kingdoms of Pharaoh, of Babylon, of Caesar. And one of the brilliant things of the Hebrew scriptures of the Old Testament is the fact that it's also the kings of Israel and Judah [laughs], who become the Babylonian leaders. So you have the prophets who rail against the injustices of the Assyrians, but also look back at their own kings.And when Jesus comes proclaiming the kingdom of God, and when he comes before Pilate and he's brought before Pilate, what does this show right now? And I'm just pulling straight from N. T. Wright, so don't [laughs] pretend I'm like some great Bible scholar here. No. But you have Jesus, who is the representative of the kingdom of God standing before Pilate, who is the full legal representative of Caesar, son of God as they were known and called. And it's just a straight back and forth. And what does Jesus say? He says, my kingdom, there's the quote that always gets misinterpreted. So if you're talking politics and faith, my people say, my kingdom is not of this world. Well, people tend to say, oh, well, Jesus is, it's a spiritual kingdom.So all we do is sit and pray, and then you just let the world live as what empire, as injustice, like do we have nothing to say? No, he says it's more like, my kingdom is not from this world. It's not in kind to those kingdoms of this world, but it's very much in and for this world. Why?Jonathan Walton: Amen.Jesse Wheeler: Otherwise, Jesus says, going back to the garden, we just came through holy week, otherwise what? My disciples would've fought. They would've picked up arms, they would've become revolutionaries, they would've fought my arrest. They would've holed up in the mountains. They would have… So you have the kingdom, but going full back to the cross, kingdom by way of cross. So the kingdom of God cannot, or Christians, or those who would seek to be citizens of the kingdom, cannot live in such a way that emulates the kingdoms of this world. What that entails is, I call it the proper use of power. It's not like physical versus spiritual as sometimes we try to kind of get… It's like, no, it's actually how we understand power and why Jesus, through non-violence, through going to the cross, he was basically saying, okay, empire, the forces of violence and hatred and exploitation, give me your all.And he took it to the cross and took it on the cross, and he rejected the violent option. He did not take up the swords and the arms. He just said, just previously, those who live by the sword will die by the sword. And so that is the witness of the cross. It's self-sacrificial love. It's not this assertion of like, “Hey, this is mine. This is my space, this is my territory.” This is why, back to America, this is why the Christian nationalism is so idolatrous.Sy Hoekstra: We just had a, our March bonus episode, you're like hitting a bunch of our points, actually [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. Keep going.Jesse Wheeler: Oh, no. Yeah. Thanks [laughs]. It's why it's so idolatrous, is because it's complete rejection of the way of Jesus. It's a complete rejection of what the cross is and what it's supposed to represent. I mean, scrolling through social media, I came across what this is like giant muscle Jesus breaking free from the cross. I'm like, no, that's the complete… no, the cross is the… Like Jesus says, you don't think… back in the garden, he says, you don't think I could call down angels? Call down [laughs] fire from heaven, and just like in an instant, make this all go away? He's like, “No, I'm going to the cross.” It's an example for us to follow.It Takes Faith in the Resurrection to Use Power Like JesusJesse Wheeler: And it's an article of faith. This is where people will come back and say, this is why it is hard for people, because it is a belief in the resurrection.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Jesse Wheeler: All the forces of death and all the things we do to avoid death. All the killing we do of others, the things we… all the hoarding of resources. All the things we do that we try to preserve ourselves and in the process hurt other people. And we build walls and we break them down. He's like, let it go. Let it go. Let it go. Go to the cross because the resurrection is happening. And it's hard for people because if you don't believe in resurrection, in a sense it's very difficult. But it is very much a faith stance and a faith position.The Roots of Sabeel in the Political Witness of Palestinian Liberation TheologyAnd going back to, you asked about Sabeel, you asked about where I work. So Sabeel is an organization founded by Palestinian-Christians out of the time of the first Intifada, the Palestinians uprising. Very much a movement, a spontaneous movement that didn't involve the PLO, which was largely external at the time, or the Palestine political leaders, and was a complete shock to many of the global leaders.And largely involved a lot of nonviolent direct-action, sort of creative actions, creative resistance and great violence actually was to try to throw it down in response. And yet, Naim Ateek, he was the founder of Sabeel, he wrote a book, published it 1989. It's called Justice and Only Justice, A Palestinian Theology of Liberation, basically started asking the question, how does our faith, our Christian faith, does it have anything to say to the situation, to us being under this violent, brutal occupation? And sort of the traditional, across the board, Orthodox Catholic, Protestant theologies weren't really saying much.So they started just, would preach there in St. George's Episcopal Church right in Jerusalem. And after the service, they'd kind of get together and start discussing. Like let's read a passage and let's think and just look. It's very much like you, if you think of the classic liberation theology in Latin America. The base communities just getting together. It's basically kind of got together and started thinking, but it grew from there to, so Naim Ateek sort of was the founder, but then it was really this core group that formed and they started inviting… because even back then, they're like, “We know the narrative imbalance that people are not hearing the Palestinian side of the story. Let's bring people and show them.”And they bring people, they show them, and immediately people are converted once they see the reality. People go on tours with the holy land all the time, they're highly curated and they don't go to those scary Palestinian areas. But the moment you enter Palestinian areas and are greeted with wonderful Arab hospitality and like [laughs]… But then here's what the reality of being under their military occupation is. And it is like, oh, I see it now. So people would go back and they founded, I work for Friends of Sabeel North America, but there's groups all over and it's been still going on. And then there's subsequent groups that have formed and other great partners too that we work with.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much for being here. I mean, you didn't just write for the book. You were an enormous help in actually getting it published. You did a ton of work for us, source checking and all kinds of other things. You were… and were not running around looking for credit for any of that. So you definitely had your head down and you were doing [laughs] what you needed to do to get the word out. And thank you so much for being here today to talk to us.Jesse Wheeler: Thank you for doing it. I mean, I was really proud to be.Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much, man.Jesse Wheeler: Thank you for having me. And thank you for your witness. I mean, Palestine is a wheat and chaff issue, and I feel like those who've really stood for the truth and stood for justice and stood for what's right in the face of so much that's wrong. And it's just been amazing to see the witness of you guys, and I just want to thank you for that. It's very, it means so much.Sy Hoekstra: No, thank you for everything you do as well. We so appreciate it, man.Jonathan Walton: Amen. Blessings on you and Friends of Sabeel. Amen.Jesse Wheeler: Thank you so much. Blessings to you guys.Jonathan Walton: Amen. Thanks.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Jesse's Social Media and RecommendationsSy Hoekstra: You can find Jesse @intothenoisejsw on Instagram and Twitter. His organization, the Friends of Sabeel North America is at FOSNA.org, and those will both be in the show notes. And also, Jesse wanted us to mention another organization that just kind of had its grand opening over the summer after we recorded this interview. It's called the Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism. It's a really cool new organization with a lot of people involved who you may recognize if you're familiar with kind of the field of that particular branch of theology [laughs]. And basically, they want to be a one-stop shop, a hub, a go-to resource for everything related to fighting the heresy, as they call it, of Christian Zionism.And so, that you can find that organization at Studychristianzionism.org. We'll also put that in the show notes, obviously.Jonathan's and Sy's Reactions to the InterviewSy Hoekstra: Okay, Jonathan. After that interview, what are your thoughts?Jonathan Walton: Bad theology kills people.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Uh-huh. It's not a joke.How We Resist Institutions Built to Protect and Reinforce LiesJonathan Walton: [Laughs] I think we need to lean into that and say it over and over and over again. We cannot divorce what we believe from what we do. Can't. They are intertwined with each other. And it's baffling to me that particularly American Christians, and this like runs a gamut like Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, native, all the things, how strongly we cling to, I believe this, I believe this, I believe this, how deeply committed we are, how there are institutions, there are studies and conversations, there are all these different things that are built up around things that are just not true. Like just the level of intricacy of every apparatus to hold together a lie is mind-boggling to me.And it is so effective that we can get caught up in all the details and never think about the impact, which is what I feel has happened. Like, oh, all I do is read these books. All I do is write these articles. All I do is do these podcasts. All I do is give money to this organization. All I do is pray. All I do is watch these documentaries. All I do is host these little dinners at my house. Not knowing at all that it is undergirding the bombing of Palestinians and the rampant Islamophobia and the destruction of Palestinian Christian life. Don't even know it because it's just an encased system. So I think for me, I'm reminded of the power of the gospel transformation because the gospel and liberation is also a complete process, just like colonization is and settler colonialism is.So I'm challenged because the next time I think to myself, I'm going to change the world. I'll remember this conversation and realize only Jesus can [laughs] do that. And I need to have just as robust of a theology and apparatus built around me and participating as a follower of Jesus as the forces that are hell bent on destroying people's lives. That was just a thing I've been holding onto, particularly as we were talking about Easter, as we are reflecting on the reality of the resurrection, we need a theology of life, abundance and liberation that is just as robust, just as supported, just as active and engaged as the theology of destruction that we have now.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. The theology, specifically what he was talking about kind of toward the end about the use of power.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: I had that same thought basically that you just said. Like the way that we use power via sacrifice as opposed to using power via dominance. Like that needs to be as emphasized as anything else in our Christian discipleship.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Because it is just, it's so absent. You cannot insist to so many Western Christians that that aspect of our faith is as important as the stuff that we'll get into a minute about arguing about like sexuality or whatever [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: We have just so deprioritized these things that were so central to Jesus when he said things like, my kingdom was not of this world. So there's that.We Emphasize the Importance of Theology for the Wrong ReasonsSy Hoekstra: The other thing that I was thinking about was also related to what you just said, which is, you say bad theology kills, and we need to understand how important our theology is in that sense. But we also need to understand the way that our theology is important because we actually do think theology is really important just in the wrong way.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.We think theology is really important for defining who is in and out of Christianity or just for having proper orthodoxy and that sort of thing, just to tick all the boxes to make sure that your beliefs are correct.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Which absolutely pales in comparison to the real reason that theology is important, which is it shapes our behavior, or it can shape our behavior [laughs]. Or it interacts with our behavior and they reinforce and shape each other in ways that create policies and government actions and whole social transformations and systems across the world [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So yeah. That's what I am coming out of this thinking. We need to stay focused on. And I'm just so happy that there are people like Sabeel and others fighting in that way. And by the way, back on the point of how we exercise power and how important it is to exercise power in the way that Jesus did. Jesse actually wrote to us after the interview and said kind of, “Oh, shoot, there's a point that I forgot to make,” [laughs] that I wanted to bring up here, which is something that, so the founder of Sabeel, his name is Naim Ateek often raises, which is that, like Jesse said, Sabeel was founded after the first Intifada in 1987. But he says, there are two organizations that were founded out of that Intifada.One of them was Sabeel and the other was Hamas. And he said, basically just look at the two approaches [laughs]. There's armed insurrection and then there's non-violent direct action and education and advocacy and whatever. Like it is small what Sabeel is doing. It is certainly smaller than what Hamas is doing. And it is one of those things that probably to the rest of the world looks like it's less powerful, it's less effective. And like Jesse said, it is an article of faith to believe that that is actually the stronger way to go. You know what I mean? That is the more powerful road to take, even though it is the much more difficult one to take. And I just really wish that we could all have a faith like that.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes, and amen.Sy Hoekstra: Shall we get into Which Tab Is Still Open, Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: [laughs], all the tabs Sy. Let's go.Which Tab Is Still Open?: Christian Reactions to the OlympicsSy Hoekstra: All the tabs are still open. We're gonna talk about two stories that have to do with the Olympics, that also have to do with Western Christians [laughter], and how persecuted we feel.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I'm just, let me quickly summarize what happened here. The details are very silly on the first one. You probably heard about this one, this is probably the more popular story. During the opening ceremonies of the Olympics, well, here's some background. The opening ceremonies to the Olympics are weird. They're always weird. They've always been weird [laughs]. I always come away from them thinking, “Wow, that was weird,” [laughter]. They usually include some kind of tribute to ancient Greece where the Olympics came from. And in this case, one of the things they did was a little tribute to the Festival of the Goddess Dionysus. Wait, goddess? Was Dionysus supposed to be a man or a woman?Jonathan Walton: A man. Dionysus is a man.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Okay.Jonathan Walton: No. Diana is a woman, but yeah.Sy Hoekstra: All right, fine [laughs]. So anyways, they had this staging of a feast, and the way it was staged with all of the people sitting at the table facing the audience and the cameras reminded a lot of Christians of the way that Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper is staged with Jesus and all the disciples facing the painter [laughs]. But all of the, or not all, but the most of the people sitting at the table were drag queens. And so Christians took this as a massive insult, that people must be mocking the Last Supper and our religion and our beliefs about conservative traditional sexuality and et cetera. The Olympic organizers came out and said, “This had nothing to do with Christianity, we apologize for the offense. This was about Dionysus, and that was kind of it. We weren't talking about Christianity, but we're sorry if we offended you.”And that was the end of it. But basically Christians said, “We're being mocked, we're being persecuted, they hate us,” et cetera. Second story, a female boxer by the name of Imane Khelif was in a fight with an Italian female boxer and hit her pretty hard a couple of times. And then the Italian boxer quit and said that Khelif is a man who is a trans woman fighting in the women's competition in the Olympics. The only reason that this was a viable thing for the Italian woman to say was because in the year before that, at the 2023 World Championships, the International Boxing Association disqualified Khelif from the competition saying that she had elevated testosterone levels and that she had XY chromosomes and was in fact a man. So she failed the gender eligibility test.The reason this is a ridiculous thing for them to have said [laughs], is that Khelif was born assigned female at birth. Her birth certificate says she's a woman. She has lived her entire life as a woman, she has never claimed to be trans in any way. And they never published the results of the test. And they only came out and said that she had failed these gender eligibility tests after she defeated a previously undefeated Russian boxer. Why does that matter? Well, the president of the International Boxing Association is Russian, has moved most of the IBA's operations to Russia, has made the state-run oil company the main sponsor of these boxing events, has close ties to Putin, et cetera [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: It has become a Russian propaganda machine. The International Boxing Association, the International Olympic Committee has actually cut ties with them, is no longer letting them run the World Championships or the Olympic games boxing tournaments. They have suffered from corruption, from match fixing by referees, lack of transparency in finances, et cetera. It is a big old mess, and they never published the results of these gender eligibility tests. And it is pretty clear that they were made up in order to preserve the undefeated title of a Russian favorite boxer [laughter]. So it's absolute nonsense is what I'm saying.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: But that has not stopped anyone, including people like Elon Musk and JK Rowling from saying, “what we clearly saw here in the Olympics was a man punching a woman. And this is where you get when you follow the transgender agenda,” and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Obviously I just named, well, Rowling is a Christian, but lots of Christian leaders jumping on this same train. Jonathan, these were yours.Jonathan Walton: [exasperated exhale] These are mine.Sy Hoekstra: Why did you include these? You have been, I'll say you have been very focused on these, the Christian reaction to things going on in the Olympics has been on the brain for you. Why [laughs]?Fusing Faith with American PowerJonathan Walton: Because I think there's a couple things because bad theology kills people. Sy, we talked about this and like…Sy Hoekstra: Well, no, wait. How is this, explain the relation there, please.Jonathan Walton: Gladly. Gladly. So I think [laughs], I'm gonna read this quote by Andy Stanley who posted this after the Dionysus thing and then took it down because I think he realized the err of his ways. But I am grateful for the interwebs because somebody screenshot it. Here we go [Sy laughs]. “Dear France, the Normandy American Cemetery is the resting place of 9,238 Americans whose graves are marked by 9,238 crosses. American soldiers, who in most cases volunteered to come to your shores in your time of need. Their final prayers were to the God whose son you mocked in front of the entire world. It was during the very meal you went to such creative pains to denigrate, that Jesus instructed his followers to love one another and then define what he meant. Quote, greater love has no one than this, that one laid down his life for his friends, end quote. While you host the Olympic Games, remember your nation hosts 172.5 acre reminder of what love looks like. You don't just owe Christians an apology. You owe the West an apology.” End quote.Sy Hoekstra: It's so much Jonathan [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It is. That's a book. That is a book. It's called 12 Lies.Sy Hoekstra: That's your book, yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And then it's an anthology that like [laughs] called Keeping the Faith, right? So that to me, and what's happened in this season of the Olympics has crystallized something for me that I think about. But these are such concrete, clear, succinct, edited examples of like, here is what happens when geopolitical power of the American apparatus is just completely inseparable, completely fused, completely joined together with the Jesus of empire.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So much so that minutes after this ceremony was completed and broadcast, you have people with the language, you have people with the vocabulary, you have people with statistics. He's like, this is the number of crosses. That means he Googled something, he don't just know that.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: We are primed as… not me, because I'm not. But the White American church and folks affiliated and committed to White American folk religion, like this race-based, class-based, gender-based environmental hierarchy that dominates this false gospel of the merchant, the military and the missionary all coming together. Like that is just so frustrating to me. And it's not going to stop because the apparatus is in like, I feel like a full maturation right now because it is under threat and constantly being exposed. So what tab is still open for me is the reality that the people who are armed with a false gospel are finally being met online and in real life by people who are willing to challenge them.And so what was amazing to me was watching a Fox News segment where someone came on and said, “Hey, Imane Khelif was born a woman, is a woman. This is not a trans issue.” There are people willing to go on and say the things. There's an online presence of people willing to go online and say the things. And I think we have an articulation of faithful followers of Jesus who are willing not just to say this is wrong, but name the connection that when we have conversations about Christians being persecuted, boom, here's a picture of Christians actually being persecuted, Palestine. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: When we have conversations, oh, we are being persecuted and violence is being committed against us. No, no, no. Violence is actually happening to trans people at a staggering level. And it correlates with when we have these nonsensical conversations that actually create environments that are more dangerous for them in the bathroom, in schools and wherever they go. And so, I can have a conversation with someone and say—this was a real conversation—we have the luxury of having this conversation as people who are not involved directly, but we do not have the luxury of as followers of Jesus is not then following up and saying, “I was wrong.”So I had conversations about Imane Khelif with Christians who said, “You know what? Oh, I didn't know that. Let me go back and post something different. Let me post an apology. You know what, I see what you're saying. I clicked on the links. Yeah, we shouldn't be doing that. I'm gonna go and have a conversation with these people.” That to me is hopeful, and at the same time, I know that this will not stop because my mama would say, “When the lights come on, the roaches run everywhere.” I fully suspect that there will be more examples like this leading up to and beyond the election.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, for sure.Jonathan Walton: …as there is more light on the sheer nonsense that Andy Stanley and these other people are propagating on a regular basis.Christians Demonstrated How Christian Nationalism is Common and Acceptable in White ChurchesSy Hoekstra: And people who jumped on this by the way, were like, Ed Stetzer and people who are kind of like in the middle politically in America and in American politics at least. They're not Trumpers. These are regular Christians [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. And that's the thing that we talked about a few episodes ago. This is the soft Christian nationalism, socially acceptable American exceptionalism. All these things are totally normal, totally fine in quote- unquote. that normal Christianity.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. And actually, so one of the things I want to emphasize about that thing you, that someone screenshotted from Andy Stanley, was that his idea of love in that post is like, I'm gonna sacrifice myself for you and then in exchange I get control over your culture so that you will not insult me.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Which is not the love of Jesus. The love of Jesus is laying down your life for your friends, period, end of story. Jesus laid down his life for people who have nothing to do with him. You know what I mean? Who can't stand him, who don't like him, whatever.Jonathan Walton: Who desired to kill him [laughs]. Right.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, exactly. And did not demand then that they conform to his way. He let them go on their way.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: The quote unquote love that says, all these soldiers at Normandy sacrificed, therefore you cannot insult us, is not Christian. Has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus. And it does have everything to do with tying your faith to an empire that uses military might to demand conformity. That is colonizing faith, period.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Why White Christians Invent Enemies Where None ExistSy Hoekstra: That aspect of it then kind of plays into some of the stuff that I was thinking about it, which is that like if you are someone who has so fused your faith with dominance like that, then you are constantly looking for enemies who don't exist to come and defeat you because that's your way of living. You live by the sword. So it's almost like a subconscious, like you live by the sword, you expect to die by the sword. You live by cultural dominance, you expect people to culturally dominate you. So you're going to find insults against one European artist's rendering of a scene from the Bible where none exist. Just because they had drag queens you don't like.You are going to find trans women who don't exist [laughs] and argue that they are a sign of the things that are destroying the culture that you built in the West. And I just think that is so much more revealing of the people who say it than it is of anything that they were trying to reveal through what they said.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely. I wonder if there were followers of Jesus who when da Vinci painted what he painted, said, “This is not my savior.”Sy Hoekstra: I can think of one reason, but why would they have said that Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Because the Last Supper is a parody of an event in the scriptures. The reality is Jesus is not a Eurocentric figure sitting with flowing robes with people surrounding him. That's not how it happened. That's not how Passover looks[laughs]. So I mean, the reality of them being these American insurrectionist pastors who say, “You know what, we are going to get angry about a parody that isn't a parody, about a parody that we believe is actually sacred.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. Well, okay. Calling the Last Supper parody I think is a little bit confusing.Jonathan Walton: No, the…Sy Hoekstra: Because I think da Vinci meant it the way that he… [laughs].Jonathan Walton: No, I'm sure da Vinci reflected his cultural reality on the scripture, which is something we all do.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Jonathan Walton: But to then baptize that image to be something that can be defiled and then demand capitulation because of our quote- unquote military might, those lines are bonkers to me. So I can be frustrated that I feel mocked, because that's a feeling, I feel mocked. But what should happen is we say, I feel mocked because I don't actually have cultural understanding and acuity to be able to differentiate my own emotional realities from the theology of the Bible when we don't have those skills. And actually we don't have that desire because we desire for them to be one and the same, like you said. I desire to feel affirmed and good and empowered all the time.And if that comes under any threat, then it's either the merchant, let's take money from you. Let's sanction you, let's get you out of the economic system so you cannot flourish in the way that we've defined flourishing to look. We will bring missionaries and people and set up institutions to devalue and debunk your own cultural narratives and spiritual things that you hold dear. And if that doesn't work, we'll just shoot you and make sure it does. Anyway, that's was more forceful than I expected it to be.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] It wasn't for me because you keep putting these Olympics things in the newsletter and you keep telling me how frustrated you are about them, but it goes to stuff that is extremely important and I appreciate you bringing up and bringing us into this conversation.Outro and OuttakeSy Hoekstra: We have to go. You specifically have to leave in a couple minutes, so we're going to wrap things up here. Even though you and I could talk about this subject forever [Jonathan laughs]. Maybe Jonathan, maybe we'll talk about it more at the next monthly Zoom conversation.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: …on August 27th that people can register for if they become paid subscribers at Ktfpress.com, which you all should please go do if you want to see this work continue beyond this election season, get access to all the bonus episodes of this show, the ability to comment, other community features like that. The anthology, again, is at Keepingthefaithbook.com, that's what Jesse wrote for and what 35 other authors wrote for trying to give us a faithful path forward as so much of the church idolizes Donald Trump and the power that he brings them in this particular political era. Our theme song is Citizens by Jon Guerra. Our podcast Art is by Robyn Burgess, transcripts by Joyce Ambale, editing by Multitude Productions. Thank you all so much for listening and we will see you in two weeks.Jonathan Walton: Bye.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: The White Christian persecution complex. [Jonathan lets out a deep, croaky “Maaaaaaaah”].Sy Hoekstra: I really should have… what was that noise [laughter]?Jonathan Walton: I think it's appropriate [Sy laughs]. It was the exasperation of my soul. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Nex Benedict was a 16 year old trans child who used he/him/they/them pronouns and lived in Oklahoma outside of Tulsa. Early in February, they were bullied to death in the girls bathroom at school. Before passing, video and text messages were captured from Nex reflecting on the experience of the fight that took his life and the years of harassment and bullying that led up to it. Many folks have been struck by his unjust and untimely passing - including bad actors and bigots like the head of Libs of TikTok who was recently appointed to an Oklahoma position overseeing library books. For most queer folks, however, Nex's killing evokes painful memories about our own traumas -- and the deaths of our queer siblings over the years including especially Matthew Shepherd, Brandon Teena, Brianna Ghey, the Q Nightclub Shooting, The Pulse, O'shae Sibley, and on and on and on. In this episode, Elle shares her feelings that come up after hearing of Nex's death -- as well as short recordings taken from the Vigil in her town. She finishes the episode with an invitation to take constructive action to push back against the hate. Some resources shared and mentioned on today's podcast include: Therapy with Elle "A Warped Version of the Bible Killed NEx Benedict" by Serene Jones The work of Kevin Garcia, "Bad Theology Kills" The work of Jeffrey Marsh As always, thank you so much for listening to the program, for your constructive feedback, and encouragement. Continue to send it to twatpodcasting@gmail.com If you'd like to become one of Elle's clients in therapy, and you are in the state of California, please reach out to her on her website: ⁠⁠www.estherloewen.com⁠⁠ and click on "Therapy".

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.ktfpress.comNote: The transcript for this episode is below, rather than in the usual separate post. We're experimenting with ways to make our podcast posts more convenient and easier to find. Feedback is welcome as always at shakethedust@ktfpress.com!This month, our bonus episode features a discussion about our big-picture thoughts on the 2024 presidential election and the possibility of a second Trump term. Jonathan and Sy get into:-        How a Trump Reelection would harm marginalized people, democracy, and creation-        How God's sovereignty and familiarity with suffering would get us through another Trump administration-        How both the oppression Biden's administration causes and US history give us helpful context for thinking about Trump-        How we can minimize the suffering of others by overreacting to Trump-        And a discussion about a recent highlight from our newsletter on prison slave labor in America's food industryResources Mentioned in the Episode-        Our YouTube video of Dr. Mika Edmondson on MLK's theology of suffering and sovereignty-        The essay from our anthology, “Bad Theology Kills” by Jesse Wheeler-        The AP's investigation into prison labor and the Food IndustryCredits-        Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our newsletter and bonus episodes at KTFPress.com-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram-        Production and editing by Sy Hoekstra-        Transcript by Joyce Ambale and Sy HoekstraIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Jonathan Walton: I think there's a, there's just healthy, healthy gifts in Scripture when we remember that Jesus lived in an occupied territory by an empire that was ruthless, just like the United States. It's not a new thing to Jesus, it's not a new thing to God, which I'm really, really grateful for. Like our Savior understands. That's the reason he can say in scripture, “There will be wars and rumors of wars, let not your heart be troubled.”[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the kingdom of God. I am Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: And I am Sy Hoekstra. We today, are going to be talking about the election coming at the end of 2024.Jonathan Walton: Lord Jesus…Sy Hoekstra: Of course, I'm talking about the election for New York City comptroller. No, I'm talking about the presidential election [laughter] in the United States of America. When it comes to season four of this show when we get started in a couple of months, we are going to be talking mostly, if not all, about the election. Kind of bringing on some guests that we think have a really good perspective, just really diving deep into this crucial subject for this time. And we thought it would be a good idea to give you, our lovely paid subscribers some perspective before we dive into that. Some of like where we are coming from when we think about the election.How important is it? What are the truly bad things that will happen if Trump gets reelected? And without minimizing any of the harm that will come if he is reelected, how can we sort of contextualize these issues within history and theology from the perspectives of marginalized voices, to give us just kind of a broader understanding of kind of the real consequences and really what's going on this year? So what happens if Trump gets reelected and how earth shaking is it [laughter]? That's effectively what we're talking about today. We will also be doing our new segment, which tab is still open, diving a little bit deeper into one of the recent highlights from our newsletter, in this case, is going to be my highlight, a massive AP investigation into prison labor, and how it supplies the food that is absolutely in your kitchen. If you didn't take a look at it, it will be in the show notes. It is a shocking one, and we're going to talk about that one a little bit more. But before we jump into the main discussion, Jonathan.Jonathan Walton: Yes, before we jump into anything, we just have one quick favor to ask of you. And that is, go to Apple or Spotify and give this show a five-star rating. It's a quick, easy, free way to support us and makes us look good, and other people look us up. So please go to Apple or Spotify, give us a five-star rating, and if you can, leave a review. It's just a super, super helpful way to support the show, and many of you have done it. And so there's an unlimited invitation to this party [Sy laughs]. So please do give us a five-star rating, write a review. We really, really, really appreciate it. Thanks so much in advance.A Trump Reelection would Multiply the Harm We Do to Marginalized PeopleSy Hoekstra: Alright, let's jump into it. I know that both of us think this election is really important. But I also know that we both have some historical and theological perspective that might somewhat ironically, maybe make us think that it's a less earth-shaking election than other people might. But I just wanted to start by talking about what will happen. Why is this election important? If Trump gets reelected, Jonathan, what will happen and why does it matter?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, actually, as I've been thinking about this question, I think that the reason that it's important, are the reasons that have always been important. It's just a problem at a fire when someone has kerosene, and it's just walking around, throwing it everywhere. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so it's like, it is not untrue that the United States has, it has been and has baked in racist, bigoted, misogynistic frameworks into our entire systems and structures. It was intentional, and it is still working very strong and well today. That has always been true. What changes, I think, is how these systems and structures impact a lot of the vulnerable people. And if you vote for Donald Trump, or lean into the things that he normalizes as everyday practices, that is a profound problem for the most vulnerable people in our country. We are living in the wake of significant cultural, political, theological and demographic change in the United States, and to have a president that explicitly endorses exploitation and militarism and hyper-capitalism, then we have a serious problem.The things that I am hopeful do not happen is the expressed situational, like contextualized things in our time and culture, which again, I'm not saying they haven't happened before. I'm not saying that they're more unique than other things that have happened before. What I am saying, is we're living in this moment, and we have an opportunity as best as we possibly can to push back against systems that oppress, abuse and violate. And one of the ways to do that is to not vote for someone who's going to do and say things that cause oppression and violence and abuse to be multiplied the world over, because he sits in the most quote- unquote, “powerful” seat in the country. So Sy, that was a lot from me. What do you think about this election, and why is it important to you?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, so I think this question for me, is the one that I kind of want to answer a little bit talking more to marginalized people than not. And then the kind of like get some broader, bigger perspective questions that we're going to ask in a minute, are kind of the things that I think need to be directed towards people who come from the dominant side of a hierarchy, right? Like, right now I'm talking to people who are not white, instead of me talking to white people. Right now I'm talking to people I think, mostly who are disabled, and I'll be talking to able bodied people in a minute. And the reason I say that is like, I think this question of why is this important, primarily for me is like acknowledging all the things that have happened to marginalized people in his first term, and that will happen again, if he's reelected.So, for instance, because I'm married to an attorney who was working in immigration during the first Trump term, and because I have a good friend who applied for asylum just before Trump was elected, I saw kind of firsthand, like a lot of the very kind of small administrative things that Trump did in the immigration system that had a huge effect on the lives of just like hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people that kind of went under the radar, just because they weren't flashy. I don't know how much you remember—how much you've put your memories of the Trump administration out of your mind for your own sort of mental peace. But there was so much stuff going on every day. Like he would say something new that was absurd, that topped the absurd thing he said yesterday, and proposed some new ridiculous policy and whatever.So a lot of things just like went under the radar that were small. And I'll give you an example. One was this woman I know who applied for asylum just toward the end of Obama's presidency. Had like an absolutely open and shut case for asylum. There's no question ever that she was going to be granted it. She was a woman from Iran who converted to Christianity and basically became a women's rights advocate. She's not going back to Iran. So she—without being persecuted, it's open and shut asylum. So she comes here and applies, and then just as, like she's kind of work… you know, it takes a while to get your asylum application granted, but it doesn't take as long as it took her.Because what happened was, Trump, in his efforts to deter as many people from coming here as possible, did this thing where he said we're going to process all of the applications that have been filed most recently first, and then we're going to make our way back towards the applications that were filed, sort of in the past. So she was making her way through the line through the processing thing, and then all of a sudden, the line flipped, and she was at the end again. So it took eight years to process her asylum application, which was unheard of previous to the Trump administration. And that just like left her in a state of limbo and uncertainty, it makes it, there's all kinds of things that are just harder when you haven't been granted that when you can't be moving on your path towards citizenship. There's all kinds of bureaucratic things that are complicated, and it just put her forever wondering whether she was going to be able to stay in this new place that she had made her home. And that's like one example of so many different things that happened.The worst things that we've been seeing at the state level are going to be amplified if Trump gets reelected. Meaning, think about like the DeSantis takeover of public schools in Florida. Like just anything to do with talking about race in history, or gender or sexuality, those things are going to be stamped out as vigorously as possible by the federal government. The violence towards immigrants on the Texas border that we've written about in the newsletter a couple of times, like the ways that Greg Abbott is just like actively killing people who try and cross the river into Texas.The way that he and Ron DeSantis are trafficking immigrants to Blue cities for like a political stunt. All that kind of stuff would be approved of and encouraged by the head executive of the country. Everything we're seeing about don't talk about…the attempts to completely erase queer people from our public education system, attempts to ban even like life-saving abortions. All that kind of stuff, the President would be behind all of it, and that is quite scary.Trump Will Undermine Democracy, Damage Creation, and Embolden People with the Worst IdeasThere will be I think increased attempts to undermine democratic norms and processes. Obviously, he did that in his first term. He will be maybe better at it. I mean, it's hard to tell, right [Jonathan laughs]? He's still, he's the same blustering guy that he was before. And there are some things that he's proposing doing that he would absolutely never be able to do, that the President doesn't have the power to do.But you know that he's going to undermine as many norms as possible to get whatever he wants. You know that if he loses this time, there will be election violence. I mean, I would be willing to bet that at some point, he goes, “Hey, about those term limits [laughs], what do we think of those still?” And his supporters are going to say, “Get rid of them,” and he will try. Again, not something he has the power to do, but that doesn't mean that there won't be violence if he can't do it. I mean, these are all totally realistic possibilities. And then foreign policy is just going to go off the rails. Can you imagine what would be happening right now in Gaza, if Israel had the full-throated support of the American President to do whatever they want to fight terrorism, which is absolutely what he would do. Right? I mean, it would be… like not that it's not terrible now, it's horrifying now, it would be on a whole different scale if Trump was president. Because ultimately, as we've discussed in the newsletter, like what the American president says are the guardrails of Israel's military operations, are in fact the guardrails of Israel's military operations. We sort of define how far they can go or Western powers defined how far they can go. That's always been the case.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: The environmental situation will get way worse, he's promised a ton more drilling. He's said he's going to pull out of the Paris Accord, which is the big multinational treaty about climate change that exists right now. It needs strengthening, but it's the one that exists. So basically, everything I'm saying is, the reason that it's important. The reason that it's going to be bad if he gets reelected, is because it will negatively affect actual people. Actual, marginalized people will be hurt. And the creation, like God's creation will be damaged. And the line that I do want to draw there a little bit for the clarity of our thinking is, that's the problem.The problem isn't that he will degrade America's greatness or whatever. He will harm like, he may hasten the decline of America, but America to me is not like theologically or morally significant, except insofar as it contains people. It contains people…Jonathan Walton: Exactly, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: …who bear the image of God, and the creation that God made and wants us to steward. So I think that's worth keeping in mind as well. Do you have any other thoughts? There's a lot from… Now, you did a lot from you, and I did a lot from me. Do you have any thoughts?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Well, I think what you said put hands and feet to what I was thinking. Like naming specific policies that will violate and destroy the image of God and people downstream of the American empire. And the American empire looks like what's happening in Palestine. Looks like what's happening in the Congo. Looks like what's happening in neighborhoods in New York City, and around the country where kids won't be able to get books because they will pull the funding from the library. They will have made sure that these school boards would be completely flipped because the bully pulpit as they say, the presidency, as you said, full-throatedly endorses a race-based, class-based, gender-based environmental hierarchy that makes sure things run a certain way.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, the importance of him just emboldening people can't really be understated. I mean, it's like a little bit hard to remember now, but 8, 10 years ago, we were not regularly talking about the Klan, or the Proud Boys or like the QAnon or whatever. Any of these alt right things that have cropped up since he basically made it okay to have their views and be at least around mainstream politics, right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, you just, I don't know. There are so many people now who on their TV shows will have, who never would have done this before. Now, I feel like they have to have somebody who just has the absolute worst views you can imagine about whoever, to come in and comment like a really serious commenter because that's the environment that Trump has created. That's the people have been emboldened by him.Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely.Trump's Reelection Is not the End of the WorldTrump Isn't God, and Jesus Knows the Suffering of OppressionSy Hoekstra: Okay. So let's pivot to some caveats or some ways that we think about another Trump presidency, from a broader perspective. Not at all trying to minimize any of the harm that we just detailed, but Trump isn't the only thing in the world that causes harm to marginalized people or to people in general. So maybe put it this way, Jonathan: would a second Trump term be the apocalypse?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] No.Sy Hoekstra: Why not Jonathan?

Join Kris Sauter as he mines the passage that has been used to bring violence on Queer peoples bodies and existence for way too long. Kris walks through the passage and invites the listener to be open to the possibility that there is a better story to be told than the church has historically told. The post Bad Theology Kills: Romans 1:18-32 first appeared on Neighborhood Church.

If you've never heard of Kevin Garcia, do you live under a rock? For those who don't know, allow us to introduce you to this amazing individual. Kevin Garcia, the author of 'Bad Theology Kills,' is set to release their second book, 'What Makes You Bloom,' on January 9th. We had the chance to sit down with Kevin and explore why they felt compelled to share this book with the world and what we, as their audience, can gain from it. This engaging conversation delves into their journey from evangelical pastor to mystic, revealing their spiritual practices and some fun life experiences. Get comfy and listen in! Also, visit Thekevingarcia.com to pre-order their upcoming book and schedule a coaching session with them soon! --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/thechristianandathiest/support

Season 3: Episode 36 What happens after we die? Is there life beyond this? In this series Mike gathers input and thoughts from some of his favorite deconstructed theologians to grapple with these questions. In this episode, Mike speaks to Kevin Garcia, author of Bad Theology Kills, and Spiritual Recovery Coach helping people create sustainable spiritual practices.   ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Everything Numa⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Kevin Garcia:⁠ ⁠Instagram:⁠ ⁠YouTube:⁠ ⁠Twitter

Kevin Garcia is a spirituality coach, author, speaker, host of the podcast A Tiny Revolution, and dog mom living in ATL. They are the author of Bad Theology Kills, and the forthcoming “what makes you bloom: cultivating a practice for connecting with your divine self,” coming up in January 2024. Go follow them on the Gram @ THEKEVINGARCIA

Season 3: Episode 6 In episode 2 of this 5-part series, Stories of Deconstruction, Mike speaks to Kevin Garcia, author of Bad Theology Kills and Spiritual Recovery Coach about what it meant for them to deconstruct into self-love. Kevin Garcia: Instagram: YouTube: Twitter ⁠Numa Coaching⁠⁠ NUMA+⁠⁠ Ashes⁠⁠ The Rainbow Room 

In this episode, we talk with Arielle Estoria, a writer, poet, actor, and activist. Arielle is the author of the upcoming book "The Unfolding," which is set to release on March 7, 2023. You can follow Arielle on social media at @arielleestoria. During our conversation, we dive into Arielle's creative process and how she uses her art to explore themes of identity, purpose, and spirituality. We also discuss her advocacy work and the importance of using one's platform to promote positive change in the world. To support this podcast and gain access to exclusive content, please join us on Patreon at Patreon.com/thekevingarcia. Additionally, if you're interested in learning more about working with Kevin, check out their workshop at theKevinGarcia.com/workshop. And don't forget to check out Kevin's other project, Bad Theology Kills, at BadTheologyKills.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Struggling to overcome a dogmatic religious upbringing and find your way back into spirituality? This week, Sah and spiritual recovery coach Kevin Garcia get into the dangers of bad theology and how spirituality fits into modern belief systems, religious dogma, and more.Tune in to hear them chat about:Theology vs Spirituality: What's the difference?How “Bad Theology" affects people, and how they can recover from an unhealthy religious upbringing.What it means to be mad at god, and how to reckon with that anger.How to deal with the unfairness of life while believing in God.How to navigate grief from your spiritual heart.What people can do when their life has completely fallen apartThe idea that our purpose is just to be alive, and ever-expandingKevin Garcia is a spiritual recovery coach, a mystical theologian + practitioner, an author/speaker, and a wild lover of life, based in Atlanta, GA. Kevin's the author of Bad Theology Kills: undoing toxic beliefs and reclaiming your spiritual authority.✨✨✨This podcast was brought to you by the Institute of Integrative Nutrition, where Sah began his own career in wellness as a certified Health Coach! IIN pioneered the field of health coaching with the Health Coach Training Program, and created a movement to change the health and happiness of the world.Discover how to nourish, heal, and thrive in all aspects of your life and career.Payment plans start as low as $199/month, AND as a member of our community, you'll save $2,500 off tuition if you mention Sah D'Simone at registration.✨✨✨Get more Sah in your life:

In this episode, Bruce and Justin discuss practically theology and what bad theology looks like.Criteria for Bad Theology - Dr. Leah RobinsonLimits Flourishing of HumansOppressiveDoesn't Permit ReflectionCreates Us v. Them MentalityIsolates Does Not Seek or Pursue Justice or EqualityBook: Bad Theology Kills: Undoing Toxic Belief & Reclaiming Your Spiritual Authority - Kevin Garcia

In this episode, we have a conversation with mystical theologian and author of Bad Theology Kills, Kevin Garcia! Kevin shares their spiritual journey from being in ex-gay ministry to finding wholeness in queer identity and finding God in their body, in other people, and in practices such as yoga. We get into some pretty deep theological discussions (April tries to articulate her Christology) and talk about what makes us feel alive with wonder, whether that be in a church community or somewhere completely different. We hope this conversation inspires you to sit in the mystery and find spiritual practices that are good for your well-being. You can find Kevin on Instagram and Twitter @theKevinGarcia. Their podcasts, A Tiny Revolution and Your Favorite Aunts, can be found wherever you listen to podcasts. You can purchase their book here. We have merch! Get your Bible Dyke Energy Tee or mug here: https://reclaiming-the-garden.creator-spring.com/ Our social media: @reclaimingthegarden on Insta, @RtGardenPodcast on Twitter, and Reclaiming the Garden on Facebook. Our personal accounts: @thatpunchabletheaternerd, @April_TheWriter (April is on Twitter and Insta). Also, our podcast account follows a bunch of awesome folks + podcasts in the exvangelical/deconstruction world and progressive Christian world, so if you're looking for more resources, that's a great place to start!

Kevin Garcia, author of "Bad Theology Kills," hangs with hosts Joey and Matt Oxley as they talk about sexual attraction, how to live a life of love in this "woke culture" when you're not all that woke and you mess up people's pronouns, and how bad theology kills people.  And if people are actually dying, the church needs to love first, figure out the theology later.   Could the the American version of mainstream Christianity actually be heresy?  And when people say "the bible says," they actually mean "this is what i believe the bible to say."Enjoy these conversations?  Check out the digital community version of Pastor With No Answers Podcast,  Bear W/ Community, only patrons have access to:Read about it HERE.Watch a quick video HERE.   Join HERE.   These perks may change your life.Kevin Garcia / Website / Instagram / Book Matt Oxley (co-host) / Web  / TwitterJoey Svendsen (co-host) / Instagram / Twitter / Facebook / E-mailPodcast Socials PWNA Discussion Facebook Group / YouTubeANNOUNCEMENTS / LINKS4 Week Experiencee-mail the PWNA team here.Thanks //  Derek Minor for theme song and Joel Hamilton / Joel Hamilton + friends for other music.Support the show

What's up y'all of little faith and welcome to episode 9 of the 2nd season of The Fagnostic Podcast I'm your hostess, not your Moses, Mat Hayes, and if I'm still here, it means that I'm still looking for answers! Y'all, today I have the digital pastor, Kevin Garcia, with us. Kevin is a mystical theologian and practitioner based in the ATL. This intuitive soul coach has reached thousands of individuals across the globe with messages of God's unending love for all people. regardless of who they are, what they profess, or what they actually believeKevin is the author of BAD THEOLOGY KILLS, released in January of 2020, right before the world ended. You can find it on his website or anywhere else onlineKevin believes that by telling our stories, we set others free to tell their own. He uses his online presence to create communities of authentic spiritual seeking. He holds a masters of arts in practical theology from Columbia Theological Seminary and a bachelors in music in choral music from Christopher Newport University. Kevin also is the founder of Queerly Beloved Apparel and Big Queer Adventure Company. Sometimes a Christian. Often a witch. Always a mystic. Welcome to the show Kevin!

BE AS INSECURE AS YOU IS BINCH! Follow @RevSarahHeath and look into her stuff at RevSarahHeath.com.  Join Sarah's Patreon group REVcovery at Patreon.com/revcovery Follow @theKevinGarcia. And buy Bad Theology Kills at BadTheologyKills.com  Join The Crowded Table spiritual social club at TheCrowdedTable.mn.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Where in we have to break down why homosexuality is not the same thing as abusing children for some GD reason. Follow @RevSarahHeath and look into her stuff at RevSarahHeath.com and listen to RevCovery here. Follow @theKevinGarcia. And buy Bad Theology Kills at BadTheologyKills.com  and listen to A Tiny Revolution here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's fine. It's all fine. Follow @RevSarahHeath and look into her stuff at RevSarahHeath.com.  Follow @theKevinGarcia. And buy Bad Theology Kills at BadTheologyKills.com  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The worse it gets, the more Kevin smokes. We need to pray yall. Follow @RevSarahHeath and look into her stuff at RevSarahHeath.com.  Follow @theKevinGarcia. And buy Bad Theology Kills at BadTheologyKills.com  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Follow Benjamin Perry on Twitter: https://twitter.com/FaithfullyBPSome queer theological resources recommended by Benjamin Perry:1. Radical Love by Patrick Cheng2. Indecent Theology by Marcella Althaus-Reid3. The Black Trans Prayer Book ed. by Dane Figueroa Edidi & J Mase III4. Bad Theology Kills by Kevin Garcia Two Bi Guys is now sponsored by Zencastr! You can get 30% off Zencastr for 3 months with promo code: twobiguys -- or just click this link: https://zencastr.com/pricing?coupon=twobiguys&fpr=ex42o. Start recording your own podcast or meetings today!This episode is also sponsored by Vinovest. Discover wine investing with Vinovest -- get 2 months of fee-free wine investing with this offer link: zen.ai/twobiguys It's about time for modern religion to not just accept queerness but to celebrate it -- and that's exactly what Benjamin Perry, a Bi+ Minister as Middle Church in New York City, is doing. In this episode we chatted about Benjamin's journey toward a bisexual identity, opening up to his wife and the experience of being married and bi, how he found his calling in theology and began to blend it with his burgeoning queerness, coming out in a religious community (a surprisingly positive experience for him), and the inclusive mission of Middle Church and how it reflects God's queerness. We also discussed the possibility that Jesus and his disciples were bisexual/fluid/queer, what the backlash to this "controversial" idea tells us about religious fundamentalism, and why queerness should not just be "acceptable" among the faithful but why it's actually vital to understanding God's love, community, and compassion. Two Bi Guys is produced and edited by Rob CohenCreated by Rob Cohen and Alex BoydLogo art by Kaitlin WeinmanMusic by Ross MintzerWe are supported by The Gotham 

Alrighty y'all! We've mentioned in the past that we need some help with the vernacular/vocabulary when it comes to various gender expressions. We sat down with a new friend over the holiday break to discuss the LGBTQIA+ spectrum. We look forward to hearing your thoughts!Email us at: teenagertoddler2020@gmail.comFollow us on Instagram @teenagertoddlerGet more content & support our work on: patreon.com/teenagertoddler HT's info & other things discussed on this week's podcast: GC2B: https://www.gc2b.co/Crane Center for Transgender Surgery: https://cranects.com/@gaychristainkid on Instagram & ticktok  @_trainerh on Instagram & Twitter HT & company on Spotify and Apple Music Kevin Garcia & Bad Theology Kills: https://www.thekevingarcia.com/bookFor a Transgender Umbrella Visual click here. 

Kevin Garcia, author of "Bad Theology Kills" joins the pod today to talk about their journey into the non-monogamous space after coming out in the evangelical church. Kevin shares candidly about their struggles in a long-term relationship, infidelity, and how that sparked a desire for radical honesty in their relationships that eventually led to polyamory. Support the podcast: https://www.patreon.com/puritytopolyamory To find more, visit @puritytopolyamory on Instagram and Twitter Music is produced at edited by Sam Montooth. Find him on IG: @SamBassman or buy him a coffee at https://www.buymeacoffee.com/sambassman

In this episode, I talked with digital pastor, mystic theologian, creative healer, and Spiritual Re'Formation coach Kevin Garcia about their book Bad Theology Kills. Since coming out as a queer person of faith in 2015, Kevin has become a leading voice in progressive faith circles with a call to revolutionary love, practical spirituality, and a vision to see healing in every body. They believe that by telling our story, we set others free to tell their own. Buy their book at badtheologykills.com. Connect with Kevin Garcia: Website thekevingarcia.com IG @thekevingarcia Twitter @theKevinGarcia_ Facebook facebook.com/kevin.garcia Youtube youtube.com/c/KevinGarciaWasTaken A Tiny Revolution podcast Your Favorite Aunts live show/podcast with Sarah Heath Patreon patreon.com/theKevinGarcia Resources Mentioned: My Grandmother's Hands by Resmaa Menakem Do Better by Rachel Ricketts A Course in Miracles If God Still Breathes, Why Can't I by Angela Parker Out of Sorts by Sarah Bessey Still Stace by Stacey Chomiak "My Experience with Spiritual Abuse at Remedy Church with Nicki Pappas" on Broadening the Narrative "Understanding Settler Colonialism Within the US Empire with Charlie Amáyá Scott" on Broadening the Narrative "#ChurchToo and Domestic Violence with Emily Joy Allison" on Broadening the Narrative The music from this episode is "Love Is" by Bandy. I want to thank Jordan Lukens for his help with editing and Danielle Bolin for creating the episode graphic. If you like what you hear in this episode, share it with a friend. I really think that little by little, person by person, we can broaden the narrative. In addition, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Then, rate and review to help others find the show. Broadening the Narrative blog - broadeningthenarrative.blogspot.com Broadening the Narrative on: IG @broadeningthenarrative Twitter @broadnarrative Facebook - facebook.com/groups/broadeningthenarrative

For the last week of Pride, Kevin Garcia joins Jacqui for Love. Period. Kevin is an author, podcaster, digital pastor and an intuitive soul coach who helps people heal spiritual wounds, create new practices for a healthy life, process experiences related to queerness + faith identity, practice radical honesty, avoid spiritual burnout, and reminds people of their infinite connection to Love. He is also the author of the book Bad Theology Kills. Connect with us: We'd love to hear your thoughts, comments, or feedback. Send us an email. Rev. Jacqui Lewis Ph.D.: Facebook | Instagram | Twitter Kevin Garcia: Twitter | Instagram | Facebook Center for Action and Contemplation: Facebook | Instagram | Twitter This podcast is made possible, thanks to the generosity of our donors. If you would love to support the ongoing work of the Center for Action and Contemplation and the continued work of our podcasts, you can donate at cac.org/podcastsupport Thank you!

Kevin is a digital pastor, the author of Bad Theology Kills, podcaster and holds a Masters of Arts in Practical Theology from Columbia Theological Seminary. This is Kevin's second time on the podcast, and I was thrilled to continue our conversation about Christianity, faith, sexuality, spirituality, magic and gender, and how they all intersect. Kevin and I discuss the importance of cultivating spiritual community, how to avoid becoming a fake idol (or following one), and how they define and approach magic and ritual. Kevin also discusses their gender identity through the lens of Christianity and masculine/feminine energies. Find Kevin at thekevingarcia.com and on Instagram. Kevin's book recommendations: I'm Still Here by Austin Channing Brown, Sister Outsider by Audre Lorde and the audio version of Being Ram Dass by Ram Dass Songs featured: "Undercurrent/Watershed" by April feat. Mary Lattimore, "Little Runaway" by Celeste and "Crowded Table" by The Highwomen, Brandi Carlile, Natalie Hemby, and Maren Morris How to support the show: Rate, review and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes! Support my work on Patreon and get access to perks like an exclusive Discord Server, a book club just for patrons, shirts + stickers, playlists, and curated workshops led by myself, fellow Patrons and former guests of the podcast. Visit my website - AnyaKaats.com & Find me on Instagram Get full access to A Millennial's Guide to Saving the World at anyakaats.substack.com/subscribe

This week I got the chance to interview one of the most important voices on the internet regarding faith and sexuality, Kevin Garcia. Kevin is a digital pastor, creative mystic, and public theologian. Through writing, podcasting, YouTubing, etc, Kevin has created an online platform that literally saves lives. As a queer woman who has a bit of a rough history with the Christianity stuff, this episode was an encouragement.  By pulling apart bad theology and reconstructing sustainable spiritual practices, Kevin both helps us free ourselves, and those around us. Enjoy! Follow me: IG: @jackieg.tv Twitter: @jackieeg7 Support this Podcast: Patreon.com/jackiegtv Buy My Book: Gumroad.com/l/findinghome     Follow Kevin on Social Media: @thekevingarcia www.thekevingarcia.com

This week our guest is Kevin Garcia, a digital pastor, creative mystic, public theologian and intuitive soul coach based in Atlanta, GA. Kevin has reached thousands across the globe with messages of faith, regardless of who they are, what they profess, or what they actually believe. Kevin's the author of Bad Theology Kills: undoing toxic beliefs and reclaiming your spiritual authority, published Kevin's work also appears in several anthologies by queer people of faith. Through their work as a digital pastor and public theologian, Kevin has helped foster communities of authentic spiritual seeking used their writing, podcast, and YouTube Channel to pull apart bad theology and begin to reconstruct sustainable spiritual practices. Kevin believes that by telling our stories, we set others free to tell their own. Follow Kevin Garcia Follow The Esoteric Negro Visit theesotericnegro.com Support The Esoteric Negro --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/theesotericnegro/support

In this episode we speak with new friend of the show Kevin Garcia. Kevin is a "digital pastor, creative mystic, public theologian and intuitive soul coach based in Atlanta, GA." Kevin also identifies as Queer and "some days" a christian. We explore some of the ideas in his book entitled Bad Theology Kills and his personal experience growing up as someone who is queer within an evangelical christian denomination. Topics we explore; - homosexuality - sexuality - being LGBT in a christian context - Conversion therapy - self harm and suicide - Definitions and ideas about God Contact Kevin https://www.thekevingarcia.com/ https://www.instagram.com/thekevingarcia/ Connect with us Tune in to our live podcast recordings on instagram https://www.instagram.com/ideasdigest/ https://twitter.com/ideas_digest Email: Ideasdigest@gmail.com Find out what we really think https://ideasdigest.substack.com/ Music: Lawson Hull https://www.instagram.com/lawsonhull/

Kevin Garcia is a queer, digital pastor who is also a witch... so you know.. just your regular Christian. In this podcast we talk about Kevin's book Bad Theology Kills, how Kevin uses witchcraft as part of his spirituality and a whole lot of other stuff. You can follow Kevin at https://www.instagram.com/thekevingarcia Or check out their websites... https://www.badtheologykills.com and https://www.thekevingarcia.com You can pick up a copy of their book here - https://amzn.to/3hQP8RM Support my work and join our private online community: ╰►Via my site: https://www.phildrysdale.com/partner ╰►Via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/phildrysdale ╰►Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/phildrysdale ╰►Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/phildrysdale ╰►Find others deconstructing locally: https://www.thedeconstructionnetwork.com ╰►More about me: https://www.phildrysdale.com

A digital pastor, creative mystic, public theologian and intuitive soul coach based in Atlanta, GA. After coming out in the fall of 2015 as a queer Christian, Kevin has reached thousands of individuals across the globe with messages of God's unending love for all people. regardless of who they are, what they profess, or what they actually believe. Kevin's the author of, "Bad Theology Kills:Undoing Toxic Beliefs and Reclaiming Your Spiritual Authority" published in Janurary 2020. Kevin's work also appears in several anthologies by queer people of faith. Through his work as a digital pastor and public theologian, Kevin has used their writing, podcast, and YouTube Channel to help foster communities of authentic spiritual seeking, pulling apart the bad theology and beginning to reconstruct sustainable spiritual practices. Kevin believes that by telling our stories, we set others free to tell their own. Kevin holds a Masters of Arts in Practical Theology from Columbia Theological Seminary (2020) and a Bachelors of Music in Choral music education from Christopher Newport University (2013). They are also the creator of Queerly Beloved Apparel and Big Queer Adventure Co. In addition to LGBTQ advocacy and spiritual awakening, Kevin's passions include good music, tacos, and really horrible dad jokes.   You can find links to all of Kevin's amazing work at thekevingarcia.com (Bio pulled from website)

You can find Kevin Garcia on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.Buy their book, Bad Theology Kills: Undoing Toxic Beliefs & Reclaiming Your Spiritual Authority, on Amazon or anywhere books are sold. If you'd like to book Kevin for a coaching session or tarot reading, follow the links.For more information on Big Queer Adventure Co., take a look at their website.And of course, download their podcast, A Tiny Revolution for your listening pleasure.--Hang with us throughout the week on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Please subscribe/rate our podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen. Special thanks to Northcote for letting us use their incredible music. Please support by buying their music. The beautiful song we used on today's podcast was a new one called Dancers & Queens. Go buy it!Thanks to Bryan Neufeld for creating our logo. Give him a shout for all your design needs.