Podcasts about White Americans

In this episode, Dr. Keon Gilbert is in conversation with Dr. Darrell Hudson. Dr. Hudson's research aims to better understand why Black Americans do not get the same health returns that are associated with upward social mobility as White Americans. They help distinguish between historical and contemporary racism, and they also unpack hyper-vigilance and the anticipatory stress and expectations that come from negative racist experiences. They encourage us to think about the permanence of racism and its impact on stress and wealth.This episode references the article titled "Tips for Navigating the Academic Job Market" by Darrell Hudson, PhD, MPH and "Understanding the Impact of Contemporary Racism on the Mental Health of Middle Class Black Americans" by Darrell Hudson, Akilah Collins-Anderson and William Hutson.

Kevin Schultz, Chair of the Department of History at the University of Illinois-Chicago, returns to the program to continue the discussion of his new book⁠ ⁠Why Everyone Hates White Liberals (Including White Liberals): A History⁠. In this second part of the discussion, Danny, Derek, and Kevin get into the origins and power of the "radical chic" and "limousine liberal" criticisms, the concept of "positive polarization" as championed by figures like Spiro Agnew, the perceived abandonment of the white working class by the Democratic Party, the role of Nixon in this political shift, the influence of Phyllis Schlafly and George Wallace, George McGovern and the "acid, amnesty, and abortion" label, Daniel Patrick Moynihan's attempt to redefine liberalism, the transition of some Cold War liberals to neoconservatism, the Democratic Party's embrace of neoliberalism and the rise of "Atari Democrats," the cultural phenomenon of "owning the libs," the association of the professional managerial class with contemporary liberalism, and potential new political vocabularies beyond the "liberal" label, and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Kevin Schultz, Chair of the Department of History at the University of Illinois-Chicago, returns to the program to continue the discussion of his new book⁠ ⁠Why Everyone Hates White Liberals (Including White Liberals): A History⁠. In this second part of the discussion, Danny, Derek, and Kevin get into the origins and power of the "radical chic" and "limousine liberal" criticisms, the concept of "positive polarization" as championed by figures like Spiro Agnew, the perceived abandonment of the white working class by the Democratic Party, the role of Nixon in this political shift, the influence of Phyllis Schlafly and George Wallace, George McGovern and the "acid, amnesty, and abortion" label, Daniel Patrick Moynihan's attempt to redefine liberalism, the transition of some Cold War liberals to neoconservatism, the Democratic Party's embrace of neoliberalism and the rise of "Atari Democrats," the cultural phenomenon of "owning the libs," the association of the professional managerial class with contemporary liberalism, and potential new political vocabularies beyond the "liberal" label, and more.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Subscribe now for an ad-free experience and much more content! Kevin Schultz, Chair of the Department of History at the University of Illinois Chicago, joins the program to talk about his new book Why Everyone Hates White Liberals (Including White Liberals): A History. In this first part of the discussion, they get into liberalism's consistent spirit yet inconsistent character, the transition from progressivism to liberalism in America in the early 20th century, FDR's use of the word “liberal” as a sort of marketing tool, the height of the “white liberal,” William F. Buckley and the modern American conservative movement, the New Left's opposition to “the liberal order,” the perception of white liberals in the civil rights movement, and more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Kevin Schultz, Chair of the Department of History at the University of Illinois Chicago, joins the program to talk about his new book Why Everyone Hates White Liberals (Including White Liberals): A History. In this first part of the discussion, they get into liberalism's consistent spirit yet inconsistent character, the transition from progressivism to liberalism in America in the early 20th century, FDR's use of the word “liberal” as a sort of marketing tool, the height of the “white liberal,” William F. Buckley and the modern American conservative movement, the New Left's opposition to “the liberal order,” the perception of white liberals in the civil rights movement, and more. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

[This is a rerelease of Episode 39! Which we took off neeeding to tackle some editing problems. But it should be good now!]Singer, fashionista, and co-leader of the Mint Julep Jazz Band LAURA WINDLEY loves to make her own clothing. One day she got some African fabric from a friend. As a White American woman, what should she do with it? We call in an expert, DONNA M'SHANGA, co-founder of Zambia's renown ready-to-wear fashion house, Kamanga Wear. Enjoy the convo, video will be up on You Tube as well.Originally released April, 2023.

4.22.2025 #RolandMartinUnfiltered: Trump/MAGA attack rule of law, Student loan chaos, Harvard v Trump,"Protect White Americans" trashed #BlackStarNetwork partner: Fanbasehttps://www.startengine.com/offering/fanbase This Reg A+ offering is made available through StartEngine Primary, LLC, member FINRA/SIPC. This investment is speculative, illiquid, and involves a high degree of risk, including the possible loss of your entire investment. You should read the Offering Circular (https://bit.ly/3VDPKjD) and Risks (https://bit.ly/3ZQzHl0) related to this offering before investing. Download the #BlackStarNetwork app on iOS, AppleTV, Android, Android TV, Roku, FireTV, SamsungTV and XBox http://www.blackstarnetwork.com The #BlackStarNetwork is a news reporting platform covered under Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

NBA och Jokics sinnesjuka stats, Premier League, La Liga, AIK:s upphämtning och en diskussion om avbrutna matcher och walk over, Alexander Ovechkins målrekord, Final Four och tidernas choke. I Eftersnacket: Tariffer, tariffer, tariffer, påskvälsignelser för 10 lax, Vietnam, Kina, och en artificiell sol. Är det lite tunt i Division9-feeden? Det beror på att vi numera endast publicerar varannat avsnitt här. Inne på www.patreon.com/division9 kör vi dock på som vanligt med avsnitt plus eftersnack varje måndag, och ett extraavsnitt varje torsdag. Det innebär minst 2 timmar Division9 i veckan för patrons, till skillnad från 45 minuter varannan vecka för det ungefärliga priset av en öl, plus hela backkatalogen som nu spänner 8 år bakåt.

Chi-Chi and Bobby join fellow instructors LAUREL RYAN, JAVIER JOHNSON, and CARLA HEINEY to discuss a myriad of topics at this LIVE BEANTOWN episode! (...from 2023.) To those who don't know, LAUREL is a Black American woman instructor known for her Lindy Hop, solo jazz, and MCing, JAVIER (pronounced with a "J" as is his preference) is a Black American man instructor best known as a Balboa badass, but also does Lindy and some award-winning soul dancing, and CARLA is a White American woman and a living legend of the modern scene, being one of the most influential Lindy Hop instructors of the modern era. ("The Woodside 5" was because we all stayed together in a "Woodside" dormitory suite and are a crime-fighting team.)HUGE thanks to Beantown Dance Camp for not only allowing us to have a platform, but for helping record the episode and elevate minority voices in the dance. And of course, huge thanks to our patrons! (You can find us on patreon!)Sasha KJustnigelAnn Sofie van EnisKatja AlexandriaJuly BelberRebecca BurWeiDee MathewsBrooks PrumoJessie BrooksAryn KellyAudrey BuiIan DawsonKaren ComposMcCormackAmy SorensonNika JinEmily BenzeAngel JenioNick CruickshankTaylor StenderLeila GassSelena KruseRyan LemarCalTara SliwinskiRebecca HarrisLori TaniguchiChristian FrommeltAllison FreyLucie Q MazzantiGary ChyiLaura WindleyLynn MaslenAriane ProteauStephanie KawalskiTove LundströmCharlotteLaurelRyanPaul GrafCassandra FiliosAnd huge thanks toLawrence Kalantari and Karen ShrieberWho donated big in order to help us pay for the work!

Zach Harper, Mo Dakhil and Wosny Lambre are here to tell you that NYC Hoop is back! Watch Do You Believe? On YouTube This week's docket, Do You Believe: The new Celtics owner just bought a roster pit? Cooper Flagg is the White American Savior? Draymond Green has a case for DPOY? Basketball Illuminati is now part of the Count The Dings Network. Join the Count The Dings Patreon to support the show, get ad free episodes and exclusive content at www.patreon.com/CountTheDings ILLUMINATI MERCH HAS RETURNED - Check it out here: https://bit.ly/CTDMERCH Subscribe to Basketball Illuminati! On Apple or Spotify Email us: basketballilluminati@gmail.com Twitter: @bballilluminati Instagram: @basketballilluminati Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Justin and Wos are joined by producer Isaiah Blakely, who is filling in for Rob this week, for the second edition of the White American Draft. This time, each person is allowed two European players. The guys fill out a 10-man rotation and discuss each pick. Hosts: Justin Verrier and Wosny Lambre Guest: Isaiah Blakely Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

February is Black History Month, the time of the year when we pay particular attention to the accomplishments and contributions of African Americans to our society. It's also a time when we reflect on how we can tackle some of the pressing problems still plaguing our community, including our health. The facts are sobering — heart disease is the leading cause of death in the U.S., and Black Americans are 30% more likely to die from it than White Americans, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. For Black women, it remains the leading cause of death. Risk factors such as high blood pressure, obesity, diabetes, high cholesterol, smoking and a sedentary lifestyle are disproportionately higher within the Black community. The good news is that you can make changes to lower your risk -- Cardiologist Dr. Keith Newby will tell us how.

Today we honor the GOAT, Michael Jordan, on his 62nd birthday! Mac McClung shows up and shines once again in the Dunk Contest, and reinforces the new rise of White American basketball stars, including Caitlin Clark and Cooper Flagg. LeBron and Luka have become the most entertaining team to watch, while the Mavericks take some heavy hits thanks to the injuries to Anthony Davis & Daniel Gafford. Skip also UNLEASHES on Draymond Green and shuts down any hope of Myles Garrett going to Dallas. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Listen to all my reddit storytime episodes in the background in this easy playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_wX8l9EBnOM303JyilY8TTSrLz2e2kRGWatch my videos in full on my YouTube channel (you even get to see my face!): https://www.youtube.com/Redditor This is the Redditor podcast! Here you will find all of Redditor's best Reddit stories from his YouTube channel. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Episode 183: Colorectal Cancer in Young AdultsFuture Dr. Avila and Dr. Arreaza present evidence-based information about the screening and diagnosis of colorectal cancer and explain the increasing incidence among young adult and the importance to screen early in high risk groups.  Written by Jessica Avila, MS4, American University of the Caribbean School of Medicine. Edits and comments by Hector Arreaza, MD.You are listening to Rio Bravo qWeek Podcast, your weekly dose of knowledge brought to you by the Rio Bravo Family Medicine Residency Program from Bakersfield, California, a UCLA-affiliated program sponsored by Clinica Sierra Vista, Let Us Be Your Healthcare Home. This podcast was created for educational purposes only. Visit your primary care provider for additional medical advice.IntroductionJessica: Although traditionally considered a disease only affecting older adults, colorectal cancer (CRC) has increasingly impacted younger adults (defined as those under 50) at an alarming rate. According to the American Cancer Society, CRC is now the leading cause of cancer-related death in men under 50 and the second leading cause in women under 50 (American Cancer Society, 2024). Arreaza: Why were you motivated to talk about CRC in younger patients?Jessica: Because despite advancements in early detection and treatment, younger patients are often diagnosed at later stages, resulting in poorer outcomes. We will discuss possible causes, risk factors, common symptoms, and why early screening and prevention are important. Arreaza: This will be a good reminder for everyone to screen for colorectal cancer because 1 out of every 5 cases of colorectal cancer occur in adults between the ages of 20 and 54. The Case of Chadwick BosemanJessica: Many people know Chadwick Boseman from his role as T'Challa in Black Panther. His story highlights the worrying trend of increasing CRC in young adults. He was diagnosed with stage III colorectal cancer at age 39. This diagnosis was not widely known until he passed away at 43. His case shows how silent and aggressive young-onset CRC can be. Like many young adults with CRC, his symptoms may have been missed or thought to be less serious issues. His death drew widespread attention to the rising burden of CRC among young adults and emphasized the critical need for increased awareness and early screening efforts.Arreaza: Black Panther became a hero not only in the movie, but also in real life, because he raised awareness of the problem in young AND in Black adults. EpidemiologyJessica: While rates of CRC in older populations have decreased since the 1990s, adults under 50 have seen an increase in CRC rates of nearly 50%. (Siegel et al., 2023). Currently, one in five new CRC diagnoses occurs in individuals younger than 55 (American Cancer Society, 2024).Arreaza: What did you learn about the incidence by ethnic groups? Are there any trends? Jessica: Yes, certain ethnic groups are shown to have higher rates of CRC. Black Americans, Native Americans, and Alaskan Natives have the highest incidence and mortality rates from CRC (American Cancer Society, 2024). Black Americans have a 20% higher incidence and a 40% higher mortality rate from CRC compared to White Americans, primarily due to disparities in access to screening, healthcare resources, and early diagnosis. Hispanic and Asian American populations are also experiencing increasing CRC rates, though to a lesser extent.Arreaza: It is important to highlight that Black Americans have the highest rate of both diagnoses and deaths of all groups in the United States. Who gets colorectal cancer?Risk FactorsJessica: Anyone can get colorectal cancer, but some are at higher risk. In most cases, environmental and lifestyle factors are to blame, but early-onset CRC are linked to hereditary conditions. Arreaza: There is so much to learn about colorectal cancer risk factors. Tell us more.Jessica: The following are key risk factors:Modifiable risk factors:Diet and processed foods: A diet high in processed meats, red meat, refined sugars, and low fiber is strongly associated with an increased risk of CRC. Fiber is essential for gut health, and its deficiency has been linked to increased colorectal cancer risk (Dekker et al., 2023).Obesity and sedentary lifestyle: Obesity and physical inactivity contribute to CRC risk by promoting chronic inflammation, insulin resistance, and metabolic disturbances that promote tumor growth (Stoffel & Murphy, 2023).Gut microbiome imbalance: Disruptions in gut microbiota, especially an overgrowth of Fusobacterium nucleatum, have been noted in CRC pathogenesis, potentially causing tumor development and progression (Brennan & Garrett, 2023).Arreaza: As a recap, processed foods, obesity, sedentarism, and gut microbiome. We also have to mention smoking and high alcohol consumption as major risks factors, but the strongest risk factor is a family history of the disease.Non-modifiable risk factors:Genetic predisposition: Although only 20% of early-onset CRC cases are linked to hereditary syndromes such as Lynch syndrome and familial adenomatous polyposis (FAP), individuals with a first-degree relative with CRC are at a significantly higher risk and should undergo earlier and more frequent screening (Stoffel & Murphy, 2023).Arreaza: Also, there is a difference in incidence per gender assigned at birth, which is also not modifiable. The rate in the US was 33% higher in men (41.5 per 100,000) than in women (31.2 per 100,000) during 2015-2019. So, if you are a man, your risk for CRC is slightly higher. Protective factors, according to the ACS, are physical activity (no specification about how much and how often) and dairy consumption (400g/day). Jessica, let's talk about how colon cancer presents in our younger patients.Clinical Presentation and Challenges in DiagnosisJessica: Young-onset CRC is often diagnosed at advanced stages due to delayed recognition of symptoms. Common symptoms include:Rectal bleeding (often mistaken for hemorrhoids)Young individuals may ignore it, believe they do not have time to address it, or lack insurance to cover a comprehensive evaluation.Unexplained weight lossFatigue or weaknessChanges in bowel habits (persistent diarrhea or constipation)This may also be rationalized by dietary habits.Abdominal pain or bloatingIron deficiency anemia.Arreaza: All those symptoms can also be explained by benign conditions, and colorectal cancer can often be present without clear symptoms in its early stages. Jessica: Yes, in young adults, symptoms may be dismissed by healthcare providers as benign conditions such as irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), hemorrhoids, or dietary intolerance, leading to significant diagnostic delays. Arreaza: We must keep a low threshold for ordering a colonoscopy, especially in patients with the risks we mentioned previously. Jessica: We may also be concerned about the risk/benefit of colonoscopy or diagnostic methods in younger adults, given the traditional low likelihood of CRC. Approximately 58% of young CRC patients are diagnosed at stage III or IV, compared to 43% of older adults (American Gastroenterological Association, 2024). Early recognition and prompt evaluation of persistent symptoms are crucial for improving outcomes. Empowering and informing young adults about concerning symptoms is the first step in better recognition and better outcomes for these individuals.Arreaza: This is when the word “follow up” becomes relevant. I recommend you leave the door open for patients to return if their common symptoms worsen or persist. Let's talk about screening. Screening and PreventionJessica: Due to the trend of CRC being identified in younger populations, the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF) lowered the recommended screening age for CRC from 50 to 45 in 2021 (USPSTF, 2021). Off the record, some Gastroenterologists also foresee the USPSTF lowering the age to 40. Arreaza: That is correct, it seems like everyone agrees now that the age to start screening for average-risk adults is 45. It took a while until everyone came to an agreement, but since 2017, the US Multi-Society Task Force had recommended screening at age 45, the American Cancer Society recommended the same age (45) in 2018, and the USPSTF recommended the same age in 2021. This podcast is a reminder that the age of onset has been decreased from 50 to 45, for average-risk patients, according to major medical associations.Jessica: For individuals with additional risk factors, including a family history of CRC or chronic gastrointestinal symptoms, screening starts at age 40 or 10 years before the diagnosis of colon cancer in a first-degree relative. Dr. Arreaza, who has the lowest and the highest rate of screening for CRC in the US? Arreaza: The best rate is in Massachusetts (70%) and the lowest is California (53%). Let's review how to screen:Jessica: Recommended Screening Methods:Colonoscopy: Considered the gold standard for CRC detection and prevention, colonoscopy allows for identifying and removing precancerous polyps.Fecal Immunochemical Test (FIT): A non-invasive stool test that detects hidden blood, recommended annually.Stool DNA Testing (e.g., Cologuard): This test detects genetic mutations associated with CRC and is recommended every three years.Arreaza: Computed tomographic colonography (CTC) is another option, it is less common because it is not covered by all insurance plans, it examines the whole colon, it is quick, with no complications. Conclusion:Colorectal cancer is rapidly emerging as a serious health threat for young adults. The increase in cases over the past three decades highlights the urgent need for increased awareness, early symptom detection, and proactive screening. While healthcare providers must weigh the risk/benefit of testing for CRC in younger adults, patients must also be equipped with knowledge of concerning signs so that they may also advocate for themselves. Early detection remains the most effective tool in preventing and treating CRC, emphasizing the importance of screening and risk factor modification.Even without trying, every night you go to bed a little wiser. Thanks for listening to Rio Bravo qWeek Podcast. We want to hear from you, send us an email at RioBravoqWeek@clinicasierravista.org, or visit our website riobravofmrp.org/qweek. See you next week! _____________________References:American Cancer Society. (2024). Colorectal Cancer Statistics, 2024. Retrieved fromhttps://www.cancer.orgAmerican Gastroenterological Association. (2024). Delays in Diagnosis of Young-Onset Colorectal Cancer: A Systemic Issue. Gastroenterology Today.Brennan, C. A., & Garrett, W. S. (2023). Gut Microbiota and Colorectal Cancer: Advances and Future Directions. Gastroenterology.Dekker, E., et al. (2023). Colorectal Cancer in Adolescents and Young Adults: A Growing Concern. The Lancet Gastroenterology & Hepatology.Siegel, R. L., et al. (2023). Colorectal Cancer Statistics, 2023. CA: A Cancer Journal for Clinicians.Stoffel, E. M., & Murphy, C. C. (2023). Genetic and Environmental Risk Factors in Young-Onset Colorectal Cancer. JAMA Oncology.U.S. Preventive Services Task Force. (2021). Colorectal Cancer Screening Guidelines.Theme song, Works All The Time by Dominik Schwarzer, YouTube ID: CUBDNERZU8HXUHBS, purchased from https://www.premiumbeat.com/.

BK Spades and Novacaine set out to understand why black patriotism hasn't been considered iconic. Where does Black American culture fit in with White American expectations? We also discuss the Beyonce Bowl, Captain America: BNW, and the hip-hop sellouts. Also, BK finally admits the truth about a hip-hop legend. #blackculture #BeyonceBowl #Inauguration #CaptainAmerica #Eminem #SPC101

This episode provided significant insights into the historical context of Wilmington, North Carolina, which uniquely experienced a coup d'état. It highlighted the government's role in dismantling a prosperous Black community, marking a pivotal moment in American history. As a Foundational Black American, I believe this event has had lasting repercussions on our ability to accumulate generational wealth, underscoring the argument for reparations. Additionally, I have recently observed a growing critique among some Black individuals regarding Martin Luther King Jr.'s advocacy for integration with White Americans. This discussion prompted me to explore the fusionist movement that preceded integration, enriching my understanding of the complexities involved. I encourage you to tune in, subscribe, and share the show.Donate To The Podcast | https://cash.app/$waveynuetronFollow Us On #Instagram | https://instagram.com/thetrevorjacksonpodcast?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=Tap In W/ The Family On #Twitter | https://twitter.com/trevorj865/status/1624799477323165697?s=46&t=cwguTTrEhwYeAaQMgOAY4wFollow The Group On #Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/groups/308646383559995/?ref=share_group_link#SnakeThaGreat | 10pm In #LosAngeles | Apple Music | https://music.apple.com/us/album/10pm-in-los-angeles-single/1654989802Copyright Disclaimer under section 107 of the copyright Act 1976. allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism. Comment. News. reporting. Teaching. Scholarship . and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copy status that might otherwise be infringing Non-profit. Educational or per Sonal use tips the balance in favor of fair use ...

Text us your questions!This is a re-release of an episode from our first season: our first conversation with Kristin Kobes Du Mez, which happened to fall just after January 6, 2021. It seems fitting to revisit it now.=====In this episode, we chat with Kristin Kobes Du Mez about her book that's been making waves and is brilliantly titled Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation.  This book is probably our favorite of 2020 and is a must-read. During the course of this interview, we chat about everything from toxic masculinity and power hungry religious leaders to Amy Grant and Tiffany. Seriously.Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.=====Want to support us?The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal. Other important info: Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify Follow us on social media at @PPWBPodcast Watch & comment on YouTube Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com Cheers!

Emptiness.Based on a post by FinalStand, in 13 parts. Listen to the ► Podcast at Explicit Novels. I was a bit of a loss what to do as our sexual congress had gone in a totally different direction from what I had foreseen. Brandy seemed physically happy with the outcome yet her mind was conflicted. She slowly slipped to my right side before propping herself up. She didn't look at me. Her vision was locked onto her scattered articles of clothing.Dressing meant us heading back to my place then her having to confront Darius with all that had happened to her; and she'd liked being with me. She felt Darius was going to pierce any fable she created so leaving equated to pain and degradation for her. I believed Darius would punish her for his lousy planning. It was ludicrous to believe Brandy could entrap me.That might have been sadistic back-up plan. He could get one up on me, or blame Brandy for failing at the task he shoved upon her. Darius would beat her up over the failure. Brandy was so infatuated with him, she would willingly accept the fault was hers. His cruelty didn't excuse her stupidity, not in my mind. Still, I reached out and ran my fingers from mid-thigh to her underarm. That tickled so she turned to me and smiled.It was the first genuine sign of affection she'd ever shown me. I kept repeating the motion even after she put her head back on my chest. Brandy followed up her happy murmuring by stroking my cock. That turned into a hand-job. My pleasurable moans led to a blowjob and that graduated to a sixty-nine. I worked over her clit with my lips as I worked my fingers inside her vagina and ass hole.I was positive she'd had some intense anal sex this morning with Darius. Mom's forced enema hadn't helped her sphincter relax much at all. I fit two fingers inside her anus with little effort and, by her reaction, causing her nothing but sexual satisfaction. I admit I got carried away, altering between vaginal/anal intrusions, spanking her ass and unleashing my vitriol.I reminded her she'd treated me like filth beneath her heel, tried to have Darius bust me up, and he had failed, and I knew Darius had sent her to me today. He'd failed again, so had she and because of that I was going to own her ass multiple times before I let her go home. All of that blame and passion excited Brandy to a razor's edge.She was choking down my semen in no time. While she was nursing my cock (we were still '69'ing) back to health, I tore another climax from her. She was wearily working toward my third round when I enforced a bathroom and food break. I let this play out in the reverse of my experience, Mom and Dad.I followed Brandy around, hugging her from behind when she slowed down, or stopped. Initially she didn't know what to make of my snuggling affection though she quickly decided she liked it. She'd often lean back into my embrace. She also decided to open up a little bit. We were eating some Pimento Cheese sandwiches which she made while I poured us two tall glasses of lemonade.‘I like it when you spank my ass,' she mumbled around a mouthful of food. She wasn't being rude. She was giving herself an 'out' if I found her request annoying, or a cause for derision, a misunderstanding of what she'd said. I arched one eyebrow, stepped to her side, cupped her buttocks then gave the left one a sharp smack.‘I like that too,' I nodded hungrily. ‘You were right,' I added. She looked at me with curiosity. ‘You do give a good blowjob. I really liked it.' I didn't really know how to rate her. She was the second girl to ever give me fellatio, but the experience had been good for me. My simple praise put a spark back in her self-confidence.‘I told you I was,' she grinned triumphantly. I stepped up and gave her right buttock a quick slap.‘Don't forget I'm still angry with you,' I met her sultry gaze. A sexy side of her I'd never seen before shone forth. She was mixing fun and intercourse in a way new to her and she was finding the combination enjoyable.Without a doubt, Darius had played mind games with Brandy. My games were on a more direct level. I was still sure she was going to return to being Darius' fuck-slave and for the first time I felt sorry about that.‘What are you thinking about?' Brandy snuggled into me.‘I'm curious why you are still here,' I countered. That put her back into our ugly reality. She should be pushing me to take her back home, but she wasn't. ‘Let's go back to bed.' My offer evaporated her indecision. She took my hand and returned us to the bedroom. I spanked her exquisite ass a few more times on the way.Brandy made it clear what she wanted next. She crawled up to the head of the bed, put one pillow under her breast and a second one beneath her head all the while wiggling her ass in my direction. Lube; in the bedside table. I almost discounted it. Brandy was fairly loose. I still decided to err on the side of caution. I lubed up while she buried her face into a pillow in anticipation of what was to come.My trepidations were justified. Brandy's ass was an overly used tunnel. A few strokes verified that Brandy was only marginally enjoying the event all that much either. Diligence proved to be the most important Word of the Day. A dozen strokes in, Brandy gave a pleased grunt. I decided to alternate five slow, easy strokes followed by three rapid, hard and deep ones.That was the correct choice. Brandy began huffing and panting, thrusting back and giving her ass a clever twisting motion that increased the stimulation for us both. She knew what she was doing while I was a complete novice. I took her instruction and suggestions well, leading up to a thunderous orgasm on her part.Recalling her earlier request for post-climactic care, I took my penetrations nice and slow while she built back up her stamina. I couldn't explain it. Her anal passage was becoming just as snug as her vagina was, a perfect fit for my cock. The movement of my glans upon her back passage was driving her nuts.A few minutes of compassionate union saw Brandy forcing herself onto all fours. The look she gave me over her shoulder expressed an unspoken desire for my assistance. I took a stab at what she wanted by wrapping my arms around her waist and pulling her back up to my chest. My guess was almost what she intended. Brandy moved my hands to her breasts.Our height difference kept my kisses to the top of her head. I compensated by mauling her breasts, twirling her nipples and keeping up a rigorous breast play. She loved it. Brandy rocked back on my rod repeatedly, raising up then impaling herself with a downward push. I became absorbed in the sexual moment, losing track of whether this was one more orgasm for Brandy, or two.All I did know was when I finally came for the third time in this marathon coitus session, Brandy screamed like a banshee, shook as if she was having a seizure and then passed out. I couldn't immediately rouse her, so I quick-stepped (on my wobbly legs) to the bathroom, wetted a washcloth and rushed back to her side.I rubbed the cool cloth over her neck and cheeks until she revived. The collision of emotions in her eyes imparted a look I didn't then understand and would never forget. It was starting to get dark, so I recommended a shower before heading back. Brandy's silent depression wasn't something I could understand.She did hug me tight all the way home and made no protest when I snuck an arm around her waist as we went inside. We ran across Anita Turner, the downstairs maid, first.‘Ms. Carson, you need to call your Father,' she informed Brandy. She exhaled deeply, looked to me so I gave her my phone. Big Bob wanted confirmation that she was where she claimed to be.‘Yes Sir,' I stated. ‘We messed around the house for a bit, we have some swords, bows and stuff here; then we went out to the hunting lodge to make sure that it was habitable. You know, in case you, my Dad and my brothers want to go hunting when Deer Season comes around,' I bent the truth.That soothed Brandy's Dad though he did insist Brandy come straight home. She let him know her phone was kaput. I promised to give her a spare my Mom had. As I gave Brandy the phone, I reminded her that her father might check her phone log so she shouldn't make any other calls. I neglected to teach her how to clear that log, I was still fucking with Darius.Mom was sitting on the front porch swing as we stepped out the front door. I was planning on walking her to car because that felt like something a guy should do.‘I told you not to fuck any of my Sons,' Mom taunted Brandy. Her voice shocked us.‘I; ah,' Brandy stammered.‘Mom, is this really the time?' I intervened.‘Yes it is Vlad,' Mom informed me kindly. To Brandy she was less kind, ‘You stupid, insipid tramp. Do you regret doing my boy yet?'‘No,' Brandy protested.‘You will,' Mom chuckled. ‘You will.' I had no idea what she was talking about. Brandy flashed me a concerned look. My face held no answers so we headed to her car in silence. I gave her one unexpected kiss on the lips. She responded with a ravenous French kiss. I remained standing, a prisoner of my uncertainty, as she drove away.‘Mom?' I asked when I got back to the porch. ‘What are you talking about Brandy 'regretting sleeping with me'?'‘Vlad, you are a big boy,' Mom began. ‘You know I like sex, right?' I nodded. ‘Your Dad is the best fuck I've ever had, period, end of statement.'‘It is not just him either,' Mom chortled. ‘All of us Samsonov husband and brides feel that way about our mates. Despite my experience and willpower, I couldn't get away. The first time we had sex, your Dad and I, I knew it was the best cock I'd ever had and ever would have.'‘Gee; thanks, but no thanks for that crumb of information,' I grimaced.‘Vlad, you know I like to get my way in all things,' she made sure she had my attention. ‘I told you one month after that night with your father, I came back to him and have never been with anyone else. That's because after your Dad, all other sex was boring and pointless. I couldn't have an orgasm without your Father's help. It is like that with all the Samsonov's, men and women.'‘That's your Secret Weapon?' I scoffed. ‘Magic Dicks?' Mom laughed at me.‘You'll see. Wait until Wednesday, Thursday at the latest. Brandy's not all that strong-willed. She'll be begging you for a second round. I have no doubt,' Mom smiled knowingly. Why my Mom had finally wander off to fantasy land was my source of worry for the rest of the weekend.The further adventures of the Samsonov boys in Black Racist Tyranny.RetributionSunday was a family outing to Big Bob's for Sunday football. This time, seven other Sheriff's Deputies (with their families) were there as well. Even the scumbag Deputy who had face-fucked Brandy Friday night was there with his wife and three year old daughter. He had this big ole shit-eating grin on his face when his eyes lit on Big Bob's pride and joy.It didn't take Clarence Peterson, that was the mother-fucker's name, long to corner Brandy in a bathroom. The hunters, not realizing they were the hunted, was a running epidemic in this burgh. I made triple sure I didn't fall into any sort of complacency.‘Hey Brandy,' he sneered at my 'supposed girlfriend' as she tried to stand up from the toilet seat. ‘I need a little relief.'‘I don't think; ‘ she mumbled.‘Bitch, I'm not asking you to think,' he grabbed her hair. ‘I want you; ‘‘What?' I stepped into the room, closing the door behind us. ‘Dummy, you want what?'‘If you know what is good for you, you will walk the fuck out of here,' he challenged me.‘Good idea,' I snorted. ‘Why don't I go out to the party, trick that pretty wife of yours into a dark room and face-fuck her? How does that sound, nigger?' Yes, I was a White boy calling a Black cop 'nigger'. I had chosen my culturally bankrupt words carefully with the intent to incite.He stormed my way ready to put me in my place. He was equipped with law enforcement level basic hand-to-hand training. I'd been play-fighting that for half my life. I couldn't openly bruise him. An arm bar fit the bill for keeping in place while I landed punch after punch into his crotch until he was halfway to his knees and crying for his Mamma.‘Now before you decide to turn this misunderstanding into an incident,' I whispered my threat into his ear. ‘You might want to consider Big Bob's new security system and how one of my Brothers is getting a record of what you just pulled (a lie).'‘You came into another man's house and tried to rape his womenfolk,' I cautioned him. ‘How would you like it if someone treated your wife that way?' I could see the complete lack of empathy on his part.‘From here on out, you don't touch Brandy,' I continued.‘As far as I'm concerned, the way you treat any woman is your permission slip to do the same thing to your wife. We might even make you watch, you cock-less piece of shit. Keep it sheathed around anyone but your wife. Got it?'‘Fuck off you bastard,' he spat. Thank the Almighty for that BBC arrogance.I twisted his trapped arm up then planted two steel toed boot kicks into his already tenderized scrotum. He almost passed out from the pain.‘Vlad?' Brandy worried.‘It is okay Brandy,' I smiled at her. ‘Go out and stand by your Daddy. I'll be with you soon enough.'Out she went, leaving me with the asshat.‘Boy,' he hissed through his agony. ‘You are going to get; ‘‘Cool enough,' I shrugged. I leveraged him over to the toilet and shoved his face into the commode. Had he not interrupted Brandy, she would have had time to flush.I let him thrash about a good deal before bringing his face out of the water. He immediately got combative so back in he went. It took four trips to the fetid pool for him to realize he was on the wrong end of police brutality.‘Just so we are clear, Clarence,' I lectured him.‘All I want is some respect and fair treatment. You've crossed Big Bob, my Dad and now me,' I reminded him. ‘In my opinion we've almost balanced accounts. Act like a married man and like someone who swore an oath to serve and protect, everyone. You cross the line again, you can bet we Samsonovs will find out about it.'‘We will assume the incident is you serving notice that you've vacated the human race and you will be dealt with like the piece of trash you've become. We are not the fucking KKK, Butt-Monkey. I don't think any man is less than me until he proves it. You have a family, your cock stays at home. You have a daughter. Do you want her growing up happy only to get cornered in a bathroom by some asshole who thinks he has the right to violate her?'I let him go and stood back.‘We are done unless you fuck up again. Make an issue of this and I'll make sure your wife is gobbling Big Bob's cock before Thanksgiving. Clean yourself up and enjoy the party, Clarence,' I sneered. I left him there, kneeling on the floor before the porcelain altar.He had hate in his eyes; and he was scared too. Having broken both the law and the covenant of marriage, he'd painted himself into a corner. Things were going according to plan. Kick the BBCs in their masculinity. How we would defeat the sexual addiction angle was still a mystery to me.I was looking for both Brandy and Clarence's wife. Mom had gotten to the latter first and was already insinuating herself into the woman's confidence. She was a born con artist. I found Brandy alone by the pool, rather shaken up. She gave a slight jolt when I wrapped my arms around her from behind.‘Oh, it is you,' she sighed with relief.‘You are my girlfriend, Brandy. You don't need to be afraid of me,' I soothed her. 'That's right Brandy' was the message. 'You can have a boyfriend who fucks you silly yet doesn't treat you like crap and scares you.' Darius didn't have to be an abusive bastard. He chose to be.He choose to make Brandy the pawn in his rage against Whites in general and Sheriff Carson in particular. 'Black Rage'? That was an excuse for lashing out at the weak, defenseless, innocent and uninformed. Worse, it was insulting, to Blacks. Why would Black people be less emotionally mature than any other human beings? Just saying the phrase made me feel racist.By that reasoning, any person of any race could be excused for going nuts because their lives had been harsh enough. Funny; if a White man had spontaneous rage issues he would be committed to a mental health facility, or sent to prison, and then forced to take medicine and submit to therapy.Child abuse, torment, broken homes, poverty, drug abuse and persecution were all excuses used by serial killers too. I preferred to see Black people as people and accountable to that standard of civility I held myself to. In the same manner, they were worthy of all the respect I showed my Father as long as they didn't prove otherwise. The only person I could stop from being racist was me. The rest had to be held to their own standards, period, end of statement.‘Thanks Vlad,' she pushed into me.‘You know,' I rested my jaw on the top of her head. ‘Standing by the pool reminds me that I've never seen you in a bikini.' She gave me a weak elbow to the ribs.‘You've seen me naked,' she teased me. She twisted enough so she could look up at my face. ‘Have you forgotten that already?'‘Not likely,' I bent my body so that I could kiss the tip of her nose. That caught her off guard yet she quickly rewarded me with an ass wiggle. ‘I take that back,' I looked away. ‘I've completely forgotten about it. Maybe you could show me what I've been missing sometime soon.' I got another ass wiggle.‘You are impossible,' she remarked loudly.In unison we looked toward the grill in time to see Big Bob sending a satisfied smile our way.‘Parents,' I protested to her softly. ‘Can't I just hold you without your Daddy making a big deal about it?' I had to head off her anger with her Dad from poisoning the gains I'd been making.‘Oh God, yes,' she sighed. There was a long break in the conversation.‘Are you going to give me trouble about still seeing Darius?' she questioned me.‘I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not happy about it,' I hugged her tighter. ‘But, I'm a man of my word and I said I wouldn't stand in your way. Don't ask me not to hate him.'‘Why would you hate him?' Brandy prodded me. I knew what she wanted.‘I'm going to dislike any man who touches you, Brandy,' I nuzzled her hair. ‘White, Black, Yellow, Brown, Green, or Purple, I don't care. I know I can make you happier than Darius can. I'm man enough to trust you to figure that out on your own.' Another long pause.Big Bob was calling everyone over for their grilled meat of choice.‘What if he won't let me go?' she posed.‘Then I'll kick his ass and beat the crap out of every goon he puts between us,' I pledged. Brandy wanted a brutal competition as confirmation of her perceived self-worth.I took that sense of victory into Monday morning. I felt confident. I also had boarded up the proverbial windows and evacuated the low-lying areas because a hurricane was coming my way. There was no more confusion on Darius' part. I was the enemy he had to crush no matter what. My family would have to go down as well.It wasn't the smart move, but it was really his only move because calling for a truce wasn't in him. A real man would have looked at the possible costs versus the intended gains. Instead, a mad delusion gripped the opposition, Darius didn't give a damn about any of his supporters. His BBC culture encouraged him to think of every woman as a token to be taken from any man.It was insane for anyone to think they were safe from that toxin. What possible loyalties could have sprung from encouraging such insidious selfishness? It wasn't IF you would fuck a certain girl; it was when. Was a girl with a guy? She wouldn't always be under his protection and then it was BBC time. Would the guy get pissed his girl was being boinked?So? Girls were walking, talking sex orifices and that guy had just proved the girl who you thought was yours was really nothing but another cock-hungry slut. Very few women were truly respected anymore and those who thought they were safe had their heads hopelessly lost in the clouds. Wouldn't color save them? Why?The community had already given Black men a pass on predatory behavior toward Whites, forgetting they were people too. Exercising their BBCs gave them all the White cunt, lips and ass they could want. 'Want' being the key word. Black girls were just as sexually enticing as White girls. The boys were already skilled at violating their victims, willing, or unwilling.The same lies the BBCs told White girls work on Black girls too, because the truth they are nothing but hash-marks was too bitter a pill to swallow. Given his looks, natural talent and the thoughtless adoration of his community, Darius' blinding egotism was a given. The rest of the parasitical crowd had vested too much in their favored Son to restrain him now.That attitude greatly simplified the Samsonov stratagem to under-cut his latest efforts before they even got off the ground. He had racked up four more blackmail victims Friday night. Mom was taking that leverage away once school was in session by taking the evidence to the parents of the students in question. Painful? Yes.It was cauterizing the damage before Darius' crowd could turn it into a long festering wound. Our position was aided by the fact we didn't require the White families to do anything except to bring their kids into the loop. No active resistance was required, yet. All that was still coming. For me, it was another day in homeroom, talking with Kaelyne about her weekend.‘Hey Vlad,' Brandy's greeting had a bit more 'oomph' this morning. Taliyah was in her normal, tag-along spot with that accustomed slight smirk on her face. She was behind the times.‘Hey yourself, Brandy,' I smiled my girlfriend's way. ‘You look really nice today.' Brandy had been a bit unsure about the state of our détente. Taliyah and Kaelyne were floored by my propriety.‘Thanks, Vlad,' Brandy gave me a sultry twirl of her skirt before she sat down. She twisted to say something else, but my attention had already refocused on Kaelyne. I wasn't going to surrender my friendship with Kaelyne for Brandy.‘What where you saying about that female Peshmerga fighting against ISIS?' I picked up our conversation.Yep, petite Kaelyne was a gun-nut with a secret ambition to fight the patriarchal rapists of Mother Earth. She was enchanted by my tales of the Alaskan Wilderness and I found her; well, kinda neat. Kaelyne kept stammering her response while looking over my shoulder at Brandy. I followed that path back.‘Brandy, is there a problem?' I regarded her somewhat coldly.‘I wanted to talk to you about the Basketball team,' she kept shooting intimidation Kaelyne's way. The basketball angle was to remind Kaelyne I was a jock. Cheerleaders and jocks ran in the same social circles. Jocks and geeks didn't.The local twist on that quaint social custom was all the other athlete/jocks were Black, except for the token, 'Mamma paid my way onto the team' White boy; and now the Samsonov triplets. We three had no illusions about being welcomed by the Black athletic establishment. No matter what Brandy chose to believe, cheerleaders of both races were little more than easily accessible fuck-toys.My brothers had already razzed me about putting my cock into Brandy. None of us wanted anything to do with the rest of the cheerleader corps, though Mom insisted we consider the opportunity if it arose. That and give them the disinfectant treatment before penetrating any of their whore holes, and, due to the BBC preference to deep-throat and tea-bag their bitches, that included French kissing.‘I'll catch up with you at lunch,' I suggested. We knew that was Darius-time. There was nothing like creating a scheduling conflict with the onset of the new week and our new relationship.‘The Squad (cheerleading squad) has a practice meeting at lunch,' Brandy reminded me; that she and the girls were required as cock-sluts during lunch.‘How about we meet up at the end of lunch then?' I offered.‘Okay,' she turned her somewhat brittle smile to me. ‘As co-Captain of the Cheer Squad, I need to coordinate activities with all the athletic teams.' We had three school teams: football, basketball, and Track and Field. The third group didn't get Brandy's support.‘He's not likely to be selected team captain,' Taliyah pointed out. That was unfair. Very likely true, but still bigoted and biased.‘I'm hoping it will be Kaja,' I responded. ‘She's a hell of threat plus she'd got a good head for the game.'‘She's a girl,' all three girls around me spouted. Ms. Alice Thomas, our homeroom teacher, called things to order. We got the regular announcements out of the way and one 'gem'. The School Board had hired a new 'interim' Principal. He was, surprise, surprise, Black (I was actually wrong about that, more later). This time, he was a Canadian Black man.The morning was much the same as last week; more sneak attacks, slights and racial slurs. My brothers and I knew how the teachers would treat us. We had broken them down into three groups: the Racists (yeah, I know, Black People Can't be racists), the Cock-suckers (their BBC masters were pissed with us, so those teachers were pissed with us), and the Doomed (victims of blackmail forced to torment us).The Doomed were the nicest. Their heart wasn't in their efforts to annoy us. All they did was make the minimally required dubious efforts to single us out for maltreatment. The first two groups came at us with some real hatred. Those 'educators' were openly disdainful. We didn't mind. Samsonovs respected authority until it stopped being fair and impartial.On the way to lunch, Mikhail and I began our school counter-offensive. As two punks tailed him into a security camera blind spot, I cut off the lights so they could be highlighted by external illumination. Then the beat down began. We grappled them with one hand and landed body-blow after body-blow with the other. We'd split up and slipped back into the school crowd before anyone was the wiser.‘Vlad?' Taliyah yanked on my arm in the hall during the 5th/6th period break. When I turned around, ‘Vlad.' She came close to me and pulled me into a door sill. ‘Vlad; umm; why don't you go by the infirmary?'‘What? Please don't think I like, or trust you, Taliyah. I see how you look at Brandy and that ain't love,' I chided the Black cheerleader.‘I don't like you either, Vlad,' she glared, ‘but; Brandy; she pisses me off at times, but we've been close since seventh grade and; go see for yourself.' With that, she took off. To go, or not to go; that was the dilemma. Taliyah's actions were unusual and out of character for the player she thought she was. I went with the bizarre and the belief that even bad people can be humane.I found Brandy on the nurse's couch looking pretty damn miserable. She'd been crying and appeared distraught. The nurse was sitting in the corner, talking amiably on her cell phone.‘Brandy?'‘What are you doing here?' the nurse, Tasha Cooke, tried to block me.Had she been paying attention to her sole patient she might have been effective at that.‘Brandy, I'm just stopping by to say 'hey',' I said as I hovered in front of her.‘Vlad,' she sniffled. ‘Nothing is wrong.' Clear lie. ‘I'll be okay.'‘Now would you get out, boy?' Nurse Cooke grabbed my left bicep.‘I'm her boyfriend,' I shot a furious look Cooke's way. ‘I'm going to call her Father and see what he says about Brandy and your treatment of her.'‘Vlad, don't,' Brandy grabbed my hand that was reaching for my phone.‘Boyfriend,' Nurse Cooke snidely muttered under her breath.‘That's right,' my voice took on a tiger's rumble. ‘I'm the one here when she is in distress, not some cock-sucking loser who things he owns her.' Our eyes clashed. ‘Make sure you tell Darius I said that too,' I taunted her.‘White boy, you don't know what's going on,' Tasha taunted right back.‘Tasha Cooke, older sister of Nefrititi Cooke who was recently fired by my Mom for being niggardly,' I fiercely grinned. ‘Mother of three. Never married. It was relayed to me you are more of a bitch than your sister, so no man wants to hang around after he's done his business. What exactly don't I understand, Ms. Cooke?' I wasn't calling her a 'bitch'.That would have been bad. No, I was staying I had heard someone called her a 'bitch' and was relaying that information.‘Ah,' she stuttered. ‘Have you been stalking me?'‘Nope,' I shook my head. ‘The 4-1-1 on you wasn't even difficult to obtain.‘Now give us some space before I start to think you don't like me,' I added. She didn't like me. I didn't care. I wanted to talk to Brandy without this cunt standing over my shoulder. Tasha backed off, then mumbled something about going out for a smoke. With her gone, I hugged Brandy and kissed her on the top of her blonde head.‘I have to get to class,' I told her. I kissed the top of her head again which resulted in Brandy pressing her head into my shoulder and her breasts against my torso. ‘I'll catch up with you later.' I separated from her. I wasn't going to rip her about letting Darius get away with whatever happened. That wasn't an argument I could win.Twenty minutes later the Samsonov triplets were sitting in the Vice Principal's office, listening to her bitching us out. She was going to roast our chestnuts on an open-fire, BBQ our ham hocks and exile us from school.‘For what?' I inquired.‘You beat up two nice, young, upstanding African-American men,' she growled.‘Evidence would be nice,' I grinned.‘They saw you three bastards attacking them. That's all the proof I need,' the VP glared. Somehow, she sensed a trap.‘So, these two unnamed guys claim the three of us beat them up; where? When?' I kept at her.‘That doesn't matter, you little bastards. They made the complaint and I believe them. You are looking at a one week suspension and you are being booted off the basketball team,' she turned viciously victorious. We three kept smiling.‘Wait, are you recording this conversation?' she gasped. Three phones came up, we all hit 'upload' and showed her the screens. ‘Give me those,' she snapped. We handed her the phones, the 'burner' phones dedicated to this round. Mom was a prophetess for some Dark Pantheon, no doubt. ‘How do you delete those files?' she mumbled as she played with the buttons.‘That would require a password which I doubt any of us recall right now,' Alexander informed her. The VP, Mrs. Janice Russell, looked ready to erupt. ‘I will make it easy on you, Ms. Russell. Ms. Blanchard can verify I was with her from 12:35 to 1:10 when you summoned me here. Before that, all three of us were in the cafeteria. Your cameras will prove that.'‘That means, B; ,' Mikhail snarled, ‘The three of us couldn't have beat up anyone since before home room. That means those whiny, little natty-haired bastards lied to you on an official complaint.'‘Yes, my brothers and I can't thank you and your 'boys' enough for getting overly-greedy,' I added.Vice Principal Russell's mouth gaped like that of a drowning fish.‘None of us are going to sweat about these false accusation,' I smirked. ‘We three are going to drop hints to everyone who counts you were super-nice to us and let us off with a 'stern warning'. I'm sure so very many of your fans will be pleased with you giving the three most hated White boys in school a pass.'‘I did no such thing,' she protested. I could see that creeping fear in her eyes.‘Well, unless you want to be brought before the State Board of Education, you are letting us walk,' I pointed out.‘You have nothing,' she shook her head.‘We have had several run-ins with you, we have you setting up our Mother by threatening Mikhail and we have you facilitating the Principal's attack,' I reminded her.‘I did no such thing,' she protested.‘Nice try. Either you are an idiot to not know what has been going on under your nose the past ten years as you handed female student after female student and concerned mother after concerned mother over to our former Principal, or you were in cahoots. Either way, you are toast,' I countered.‘You can't tie me to that,' she gobbled with some real concern.‘Like us, you are White, Ms. Russell,' I snorted with amusement. ‘The Black community will rally around that fat bastard. Who has your back? If you think it is the Coach, you clearly haven't noticed how he looks at the female student body.' The 'Ms.' was on purpose; an indicator she wasn't being much of a wife in our eyes.‘Hell, they might even pin his extracurricular activities, you manipulating a man with a sexual addiction he had no control over, on you because you pretty much made him a victim too,' Alexander piled it on. ‘There goes any hope of a teaching job anywhere.'‘Your husband will lose all his Black clients; and most of the White ones too,' Mikhail grinned like a shark.‘No; no, that wouldn't happen,' she muttered.‘You are having a rather indiscreet affair with the Coach although you are a married woman. Basically, both of you are liars, deceivers and abuse your authority,' I continued. ‘If the Coach really wanted you, you'd be his wife by now; but nah; he's stringing you along.'‘Yeah, that's loyalty for you,' Alexander tagged in. ‘Except you aren't loyal to your husband, so why would any man be loyal to you?'‘Shut; Shut Up!' she screamed. ‘Get out; ‘ Out we went.‘We beat that because of one little lie,' Mikhail chortled. ‘One lie, had they stuck with the facts, stupid bastards.'As we headed down the main corridor, classes let out for sixth period. As we passed Darius and some of his hoodlums, we laughingly chorused,‘Loser,' at him in front of a whole crowd of students. Darius' face darkened with rage. We stumped him then by doing the unexpected, we ran for it.The pattern for many basketball practices were set. The Ass Coach split up our alliance every chance he got, because we repudiated and ridiculed his style of coaching. It was hard for any of our group to score in individual scrimmages when our 'team mates' would never give us the ball. The guy whose jaw was broken by Mikhail was sidelined.Every time one of the Black athletes popped Kaja, Mikhail tied a knot on a piece of cord and waved it in the direction of the offender. Curiosity finally got to one of the other guys.‘You practicing to be a Boy Scout?' he scoffed.‘Nah. When I get angry, I tie a knot. When the time comes, I'll remember what each knot was for and untie it; if you get my drift,' Mikhail didn't even bother to look up.‘You think that makes you scary, needle-dick?' he took a step toward my brother.‘I don't give a damn what you think,' Mikhail said as he stood. ‘What I do know is that, unlike you and your buddies, I possess a personal code of Honor. I'm worthy of respect because of that. In turn, I show respect to those who show they've earned it; people like Kaja. Your sorry ass?; You don't matter,' Mikhail's temper was simmering.‘I'm not afraid of you,' the Black player postured.‘That's your mistake,' Mikhail chuckled. ‘There is a world full of the graves of dumb-fucks who didn't know when to be afraid. By no means consider yourself unique.'

First Week.Based on a post by FinalStand, in 13 parts. Listen to the ► Podcast at Explicit Novels. I started out the next morning admiring the boarding on the window to the Principal's second story office. The ground and bushes beneath it were pretty trampled up too. That was a good way to start the day. In homeroom, I was talking to Kaelyne again when Princess Brandy announced her entrance and her 'power' over me.‘Hey Vlad,' she greeted me with sugary sweetness. She was working out ways to get me for the whole 'dog not kissing her mouth' thing.‘Hey Skank,' I grinned at her. Her face froze. Taliyah pulled up short.‘What did you say?' Brandy hissed.‘Skank. Are you hard of hearing?' I mused.‘I'm Darius' girl, asshole. You had better accept that right now.'‘Girl? Sure. I imagine that Darius and seven other guys fucking you in all three holes until you are oozing sperm is your ideal dream date,' I chortled.Having the scope of her depravity openly discussed really pissed her off.‘You are jealous,' she sneered. There was a hint of desperation in her voice. I chuckled.‘That's clearly delusional thinking,' I laughed. ‘You look hot, just not enough for me to want to wash my dick in ten other guys' cum. You act like a skank so that is how I will address you, Skank.'She was infuriated. The start of homeroom ended the matter for the moment. The rest of the day was spent with a hundred slights and pin pricks. Darius' crowd would get in jabs from behind as we walked the halls, or projectiles tossed at us during class. We were fine with that. There was no fighting back. The 'niggers' didn't get it.We were scoping out the faces of our enemies and finding blind spots in the school's security camera system. The truth about what happened to the Principal had also gotten out. Mom had already informed us of the series of events, including the spy camera video she took of the entire proceedings.She'd kept up the 'dunce housewife' act even after he whipped out his cock and forced her to suck it, because he was a 'big Black stud', his words recorded for posterity. Finally, he put his hand down her blouse to give her bountiful bosom a good squeeze while shoving his cock past her loudly protesting lips. That was all the excuse Mom needed. She portrayed the frantic housewife really well. We, her family, knew better.She was hamming it up to allay any criminal charges. His pleas for mercy were ignored. It was hard to make out what he was saying after she bashed out half his teeth with his 'African-American Educator of the Year' award. She'd ruptured his scrotum, stabbed his exposed cock repeatedly with a letter opener and cracked half a dozen vertebrae and a dozen ribs.We were pretty sure she'd broken his arms in multiple places, ground up both his hands and shattered his left wrist. She snapped his right leg in two, all the while screaming 'Don't touch me! Don't touch me!' Her last bit of sadism was to toss him out his second story window. The first try, he bounced back, but we were pretty sure he had a concussion.The second try cracked the safety glass. The third time was the charm and down that rapist rat-bastard fell into a modest sized holly bush (ouch!). Mom completed the act by pretending to sob as she crawled into a corner of the office while she dialed 9-1-1. As she gleefully went over the play-by-play for us once home, we knew she was cool about the entire incident, even the groping and forced blowjob.It was Davis County jurisdiction so they were in charge of the investigation. That didn't stop Kingston from sticking their noses in. The Mayor was all about the Principal being a pillar of the community, a Black leader and a church-going man. Then the School's video evidence came out. The Principle had been so full of himself and his immunity, he recorded his attempted violation of my Mom.Did the Negro community accept the obvious? No. This was a racist White lady, from a racist family, framing a good Black man though how she accomplished that was unclear to most of us and undefined by the Black leadership. They claimed that the Principal had yet to give his side of the story. That would take a while. The man had lost most of his teeth and had his jaw wired shut.Both eardrums were ruptured and he could barely see out of his right eye. His left was swollen shut. His nose was pancaked. There was even a rumor that his penis was so badly mauled they had to cut most of it off (which turned out to be true). Big Bob, some deputies (all White) and some Highway Patrol (both colors) raided the Principal's house and found a stockpile of tapes and DVDs depicting previous sexual encounters at school going back almost two decades.Apparently that was nothing more than extra proof of the hateful, bigoted White man framing a decent, hard-working Black man. That any group could be so blinded by their own bigotry that they would embrace such a blatant fiction was appalling to me. At school, the Blacks were indignant and the Whites kept a low profile, as if they'd done something wrong.The one grey cloud in this monsoon of misery was basketball tryouts were on Thursday after school. We picked up consent forms from a furious coach that slathered on the kind of negativity we had come to expect from him and his sick breed. White boys can't jump. White boys can't dunk. White boys can score inside the 'paint'; yep. No racism there (insert maniacal laughter).The Assistant Athletic Director coached the basketball team. He was a short, thin, hyperactive White man and, as we were to learn, a race-hater. He hated White people, or at least White athlete wannabes. More on him later. There were two key developments on my front. First, Alexander informed us he had a side project he couldn't talk about yet.The second thing was that Darius demanded, by way of Brandy, that I took Brandy to an 'after victory' celebration out by the lake Friday night. From 9 p.m. to whenever, I was to sit back and let Brandy be used like a drunk runaway at an outlaw biker rally. Personally, I didn't see how that could be an enjoyable sexual experience.Brandy believed this made her Darius' lady. She certainly embraced the bukkake, sperm baths eagerly. I still chose to ridicule her constantly because I could tell she was having trouble rationalizing her sexual treatment with any style of romance, or affection. She hadn't been honest with me so I was now tormenting her and using her shame to stab at Darius.We could see it in his eyes whenever we mocked his crowd. Darius was plotting out his revenge. His problem was we didn't care what he called us, we didn't care about the teachers he turned against us and we had no spies in our camp, or friends to turn against us. We accepted our social life, for the time being, would be limited to our home.Mom hinted she had a 'plan' in the offing and proved the internet had rendered local belligerence impudent. All our supplies came by parcel delivery from out of town. We wired up a new home security system, engaging a Little Rock private security service instead of putting any faith in the local, Black-run firm. We signed a waiver for the self-install.There were times when we could totally believe that Mom and Uncle Theo were twins. Technically, as the twin born last, Mom was the youngest of the five children. For unspoken reasons, Theo ended up at a military academy for delinquents at fifteen. She only publically saw him three times since then. Once when she broke into his school (and got caught), at his academy graduation and lastly when he finished basic training for the Army.Yet they remained close in ways only multiple birth kids could understand despite the time and distance. It also meant Mom came equipped with (cough) healthy doses of paranoia and vindictiveness. Mom reminded us our battle wasn't limited to the school. We were fighting a secularist religion with a fanatic core.Had Black Americans been fucked over by White America? Yep. That didn't end 150 years ago either. There was Jim Crow legislation after Reconstruction as well as uninvestigated rapes, beatings, whippings, lynching and even being burned alive. All horrors visited on the Black Race by the White Man.Yet it was White men who passed the Voting Rights Act in 1965. Yes they did, but getting Black people to accept that there were White people who stood with them as equals was impossible. Since 1965, had there been Black councilmen/women, mayors, state legislators, governors, Congressmen/women, Supreme Court Justices and, dare we say, a president?Why yes. Where there Blacks in every aspect of professional life? Damn right there were. Where there Black millionaires? Thousands of them, and even an African-American self-made Billionaire. So exactly what were White Americans supposed to feel guilty about? Crap our parents and grandparents did? Great-grandparents?When was the cut-off date for being held accountable for actions you had no part in? There were poor Black people. There were poor White people and poor Latinos for that matter. As far as my Mom was concerned, racism was racism and it had no exceptions for color, creed, and orientation coming, or going.She'd given the Blacks of Kingston their chance to make things right, to end the cycle of hate. They had declined to rein in their own, so she felt no obligation for her, or her sons, to give obedience to their injustice.There was a pile of evidence that the Principal had done wrong, still Kingston treated him like a hero and martyr. Fuck that noise. Mom didn't want to start some wacked-out guerilla war. She only wanted to punish those responsible for this fucked up situation. Target #1, Darius and by default, Darius' family. That, in turn, was Darius' biggest problem.He didn't realize he was hunting people more than capable of hunting the hunters. We knew he and his supporters were coming for our family, they had tons of advantages and little fear of the four of us (we wouldn't involve Dad since he was in law enforcement and a straight arrow). We weren't aiming for a body count. Our goal was humiliation and breaking their wills to resist.With that accomplished, we could install some truly impartial justice and social order. My family was aided in this quest by the clarity of our enemy's weaknesses. They were proud of their Big Black Cocks and their lack of restraint in using them on whomever they pleased. Basing their Black masculinity on a single bit of mythology rendered them painfully vulnerable to us.They hadn't chosen to base their dominion on anything but their cock and balls. Solidarity, economic output and healthy competitiveness had been tossed aside. The Black community in Kingston accepted Black male predation as the natural course of things. It was revenge for the White Master/Black Slave Girl depredations that happened during Slavery. Did they humble White men by fucking their moms, sisters, wives and daughters? Yeah.That disregard for social bonds and femininity meant Black women were under the same dominion, though they lied to themselves about it and the Black men comforted them in that lie. Black Mammas let their boys run around like dogs then were aghast when their husbands did the same thing. Big Black Cocks were eroding the basis for trust in this town.If BBC wanted a woman, he stuck the cock in and that woman became his cock-slave. Had the woman started out resisting? That didn't matter because now they needed that cock to get her through the week. That was the score. The truth Mom laid out was confirmed by a week of school. How were we going to defeat the BBC menace?Mom just smiled and said she had a 'Secret Weapon' to go along with her battle plan. We took that assurance into Thursday's basketball team tryouts. We rocked. We had the talent and the skills. That didn't matter to the Assistant Coach. He had six Black players returning from last year's team.There was one White guy whose Mom was throwing gobs of new equipment the team's way, so he was on board. That left five spots to fill the twelve man roster. Up against us was one ambitious White junior, seven Black juniors and one Black female senior. Apparently she'd been denied a spot on last year's team based on gender alone and was still pissed about it.The Ass Coach immediately set his sights on five of the Black juniors that fit the profile, Black top (that's outdoor courts that used asphalt) experience, tall, lanky and a willingness to dunk on a moment's notice. Our scrimmages were stupid and biased. The Black players could elbow, trip and punch us without repercussions. Mikhail almost got booted for threatening to toss the next blatant fouler into the bleachers.We caught a break when Ass Coach got called away with a phone call which he couldn't understand because his 'chosen ones' wouldn't shut up and even attempt to be quietly considerate. I had an idea to create our own scrimmage team, but I had a problem. The two Black guys and one White guy not getting on the team sucked. I needed two of the other Black players.I chose an alliance. I went to the angry, dispirited female player and made my offer. We would challenge the current team and, if we beat them, we made a pact that all of us made the team, or none of us did. I could see her weighing screwing me over. The whole school knew Darius was gunning for me and my brothers. She shook my hand. We needed a fifth.The girl, Kaja Woodrow, went over to her cousin, one of the players from last year's team. He didn't want to join us. He had a guaranteed spot and he could blow it by joining his crazy female cousin and the three most hated White boys in school. Kaja threatened to bring their grandmother into this mess. I think that threat plus a strong sense of fair play changed his mind.We were good. Shaquille, Kaja's cousin, knew it. Everyone knew it. He was shorter than us, around 5' 10'. His ball-handling skills were phenomenal, he was a fairly accurate shooter and would happily pass the ball if someone was in a better court possession instead of taking a risky shot.Passing the ball was key and not an art form shared by the rest of his current teammates. With Shaquille on our side, we put our proposal before the Ass Coach. He denied us, but we were ready for that. Our team took to physically and verbally mocking and denigrating the manhood of the current roster. They took our bait.After a quick warm-up, we made our move. Everything worked in our favor. High School courts aren't black top. The courts are wider and there is no turning around at mid-court. You added to that our opponents were ball-hogs and suffered from terminal 'dunk-itis'. Mikhail made the 'paint' his bailiwick (bally-wick?).Dunk attempt after dunk attempt were brutally rejected by him. By their logic, my brothers and I would also keep the ball for ourselves. We passed like crazy. This was doubly painful for them because the White boys and Kaja could nail a jump shot from maybe 18 to 20 feet out, no problem. Shaquille would race behind their screen, catch a pass on the leap and dunk unopposed.Our squad was making their squad and the Ass Coach look like idiots. The All-Black squad didn't regroup and create a new plan. No. We were belittling them. First came the fouls. When that wasn't enough to stop us from outscoring them, they brought out on the egregious fouls and still the Ass Coach did nothing.Finally, after the fifteenth time Kaja humiliated the player supposed to be guarding her with a quick feint-step and a basket, he ran her over. He didn't shove her. He threw a powerful shoulder into her chest and followed up by stepping on her stomach. He smiled. His buddies laughed. Mikhail walked over and broke his jaw.Remember, Mikhail was a big, strong, skilled fighter and had a temper. That message hadn't filtered through the mind of the All-Black squad. They rushed him. Their center took a piston kick to the gut (he had pathetic reflexes) and his closest buddy succumbed to a leg sweep. The Ass Coach went apoplectic. Shaquille rallied to Mikhail and Kaja while we went to our gym bags.Out came the two recording devices (it is the freaking Information Age, you morons). Thanks to the internet, we uploaded the files and then we took the damning evidence to Ass Coach. He and most of his team were in deep shit. Their blatant fouls counted as assault in the real world. Mikhail wasn't in trouble. The dumbass who attacked Kaja was standing over the woman he assaulted when my brother intervened.We also promised to show this video to every school on our schedule for the year as well as any and every athletic authority we could think of. Grudgingly he offered we three Samsonovs a place on the roster. We insisted on all five of our squad. He insisted he would never put a girl on the team.I put my arm around his scrawny shoulders and forcefully walked him away for a private chat. I reminded him keeping Kaja off the team solely because she was female was discrimination. My brothers didn't like discrimination. My Mom really didn't like discrimination.Did he want my Mom to come to school and explain to him how much she disliked it? Kaja was on the team. Ass Coach announced the new roster and promptly uplifted our spirits by declaring this season would be a disaster because we had a girl and four White guys on the team. The next day, she and Shaquille received ten kinds of trouble from their racial compatriots.Mikhail gave Kaja a 'First Alert' bracelet and cautioned her to wear it at all times. It was a testimonial to how screwed up this environment was she put it on without question. Shaquille ended up eating lunch with us as well. The razzing was bad enough. The cracks his former friends were making about Kaja made him want to commit violence on their persons.Shaquille found out what comradery was all about as classes let out that first Friday afternoon. Eight big bucks ambushed him as he prepared to walk home, he lived about a mile way. Recall what I said about identifying our tormentors? We figured out who the 'shot-callers' were so when they started texting their plan around, the Samsonovs began taking counter-measures.Darius was the Capo. Since we had a 'home' game tonight, he couldn't attend to this errand personally, nor could his football-playing associates. He had plenty of non-jock lieutenants to command. In turn, those bozos had the rank and file big and average-sized thugs to follow his orders. This wasn't an army. It was a loose vigilante herd.They also were kind enough to joke about their target when they thought we weren't around. We had to keep out of sight until the eight made a move on Shaquille. We hadn't warned our 'buddy' out of concern he might not want to keep his role as bait. We waited for the shoving to end and the desperate grappling to begin before intervening.We had to film them committing their crime to make our crime non-criminal, if you can understand that reasoning. We should have thanked Darius for giving us his eight best 'B-grade' boys to annihilate. Seven of them went down super-quick. The eighth bolted. We couldn't maintain our legal smoke screen if we ran him down.Instead, we settled for stomping the fuck out of the seven we had. Keeping them on their feet was the key. Kicking a man when he's down looks suspect. Shaquille joined in the 'fun'. Our victims pleaded, cursed, threatened and cried like little babies yet we still beat them raw and bloody.Their superior numbers and initiating the conflict pretty much allowed us to do anything we wanted to them, short of murder. Was this a White racist beat-down? You could look at it that way except for the first minute of the video showed eight Black kids surrounding and shoving around another Black kid.Once we vacated the trashing, I leveled with Shaquille about our actions, we had known what was coming his way, used him to give us an excuse to kick ass; and he was pissed with us. After a few minutes, he shook his head, snorted and agreed while we were total bastards, there had been no other way for that encounter to play out that left the four of us in a better position.Those seven guys would be in no shape to bother him or Kaja for a week, or two, and the message of the pummeling those seven went through would reverberate throughout the school.I touched base with Big Bob, who was attending the game, so that Darius and Brandy could see me being a 'good boy' thus foolishly playing my part in their deceptive scheme. That was living proof the worst deceptions was self-deceptions. Come on now, my brothers and I had beat up seven of Darius' flunkies and now they thought I was cowed enough to be led like a calf to the slaughter?(Football Follies)There was only one unexpected event on that nightmare first date. The score of 42-3 made sense. Darius was an epic running-back with all the natural talent and ambition to make the NFL. The rest of the team was pretty good as well and more than enough to manhandle the mixed race team opposing them.The coach running up the score was par for the course as far as unsportsmanlike conduct went. By now, nil human compassion was what we expected from that crowd. They behaved like brutal thugs. The other team was suitably battered, broken and sullen. Every underhanded blow, discourtesy and disrespect our team exhibited reinforced my sense of my brothers' righteousness.A tractor-trailer sized 'Humble Pie' was coming down the pipeline for those assholes and it was so well deserved. 'Our' team even had the gall to molest the other team's cheerleaders before they could exit the arena. A few dust-ups occurred when fathers and boyfriends of the attacked ladies tried to save their womenfolk. Their coach appealed to our coach.Coach's look said it all; 'to the victors go the spoils'. Big Bob's deputies moved in. It took all of five seconds to see whose side the Black deputies were on. They gleefully aided the monsters struggling with the White men whose sole crime was wanting to get their women out with their virtues intact. All of these shenanigans were anticipated by Mom and us.Three members of the defense managed to steal one terrified White cheerleader away from her side of the field. The boyfriend who tried to get to her was held back by a Black deputy. They would have been home-free except for one thing, my Dad's height and instincts. He spotted the trouble and headed those three off. First they blustered. Dad was unfazed.Next they decided two would block Dad while the third dragged the girl away. They didn't know Dad. The second they put hands on him, out came his collapsible baton. He swung it up and into one antagonists' elbow. Trust me, that hurts. Of greater importance, no one saw it coming. Dad got in a blow to the other guy before he knew why the first guy was cursing in pain.Then Dad fell on the third football player. My favorite lawman was finished talking. He shoved a thumb into the bastard's left eye, trust me; that hurts too. I can also assure you it is horribly distracting. Dad corralled the panicked girl and brought her back to her boyfriend, and the deputy who was arresting him. The White boy was freaking out and the Black officer was gloating.I had never been the recipient of what came next, but I'd heard Dad's family talk about it and witnessed it a few times from a distance, like tonight. Dad, as Senior Deputy, asked the 'plain' Deputy to release the boy. The Deputy said something disrespectful to Dad. My Father grabbed the man's right wrist faster than a rattlesnake. I could almost feel those wrist bones grinding painfully together.Dad, like all the men in our family, was big and bulky, not fat. We packed muscle mass upon muscle mass and I knew that Black man wasn't getting his wrist back until Dad decided to release him. Dad leaned in and whispered a few things to the Deputy. The Black man spat back then nearly crumpled over in pain as my Father ratcheted up the pressure, until the crying man acquiesced.The girl and her boyfriend beat their feet out of there. Dad escorted the rebellious Deputy to a quiet corner to have a chat. That shithead immediately went for the racist angle, White cop picking on rambunctious Black youths. Dad replied that if he ever saw anything like what he saw that night again, he wasn't going to report the deputy, he was going to arrest him on the spot for facilitating an attempted sexual assault.The Deputy made one more stab at the racist smear, proving he had never bother to get to know my Father. Dad's comeback was simple. If the deputy called him a racist one more time, he would bring the Black officer up on State and Federal Hate Crime statutes, creating a racial charged work environment.The Fed would be a 'swing and a miss'. It was the 'Blacks can't be racist' bullshit. The State of Arkansas on the other hand; Dad, Big Bob and the White Deputies would gladly grease the wheels of justice. Nik Samsonov had a flawless 23 year record in law enforcement. All of that was of no surprise.Dad had never come out and said there was a racial divide in the Sheriff's office, but it was clear to us that to a man, the Black Deputies kept the Black power structure in town abreast of all the goings on at the county law enforcement level. Until our arrival, the Black elite had their eyes set on litigating themselves into the office of Sheriff.A man of Dad's background and caliber sort of curtailed those hopes and dreams. This was another reason for them to support Darius and his efforts were to make Dad look bad and even shame him into leaving. Fat chance of that happening. No, none of that was surprising to me. What caught me somewhat off-guard was;‘Why do you hate me?' Brandy asked me out of the blue. We were driving to the lake party site when she finally opened up.‘You've never given me a reason to do anything but hate you,' I replied after some thought.‘That's not so,' she protested. My first thought was to laugh in her face.‘Did it ever occur to you I didn't want to be in a relationship with you either? Did it occur to you that you could have been honest about this and I would have understood? Did you consider my feelings at all before you fed me into Darius' world?' I proffered up my questions.‘You wanted to date me,' she rebutted. ‘I saw the way you looked at me on the deck last Sunday.'‘Nope,' I shook my head. ‘I thought you looked 'hot'. I never wanted to date you. Had my mind ever planned to wander that way, your attitude shut that down pretty quick.'Oh really?' she remained confident in her sex appeal. ‘If you behave tonight, I'll give you a blowjob when you drop me off at home. I'm really good.'‘No thanks,' I shrugged. ‘However Darius and his crowd rate your talent at fellatio is not something I consider reliable. If I want a blowjob, I'll get a pro whom I'm sure is disease-free.'‘You are being such a bastard,' she pouted angrily. I didn't care. ‘You are just jealous.'‘And you are little more than three nameless orifices in a gangbang,' I snorted. ‘If that's what floats your boat; good for you. I prefer to date a girl who doesn't need an orgy to feel erotic and desirable. My problem isn't with how you express your sexuality, Brandy.'‘You deceived me and you don't regret it in the slightest. That's my problem with you.'We rode for a while in silence. Brandy couldn't let the matter rest until I acknowledged she was right; and she was the foxy babe I could never have because my melanin levels weren't high enough.‘You wouldn't have understood Darius and me,' she spouted with certainty.‘Why?'‘What? Why what?' she asked.‘Why would you assume I wouldn't understand you wanting to date the star running back?' I explained.‘He's Black,' she stated.‘So? I don't care about Black and White. Hell, I have cousins who are Native Alaskans, that's Indians to you people,' I responded. ‘The few people of color I did know before coming here were my neighbors and nice people.'‘Liar,' she smirked. ‘White men always get upset when strong, Black men take their women.'‘You are not my woman, so there was never anything to take. Until you and Darius decided to fuck with me and my brothers, we didn't care,' I answered.‘We are not your limp-wristed rich boys, or your rednecks. You both exhibited a painful level of prejudice so here we are.'‘Well; you can watch the party but you can't come down,' she tried a different angle. ‘Darius may send you on a beer-run later.'‘That ain't going to happen,' I chortled.‘You had better do what he says,' she threatened. I gave another amused snort. I drove us to the bottom of the parking lot near the lakeshore. Brandy got out, tried to give me a salacious look. I yawned. There were two other pseudo-boyfriends on the scene and a passel of empty cars most likely belonging to the football crowd.I had taken into account that my family's resistance and Dad's actions had earned me some serious retribution in their minds. That was all part of our strategy. I cut off my headlights then backed my car toward the road. I waited for ten seconds then Alexander appeared at the passenger door of the Mustang.‘Hey Vlad,' he teased me. ‘How are things going on your 'date'?'‘As expected,' I chuckled. I put on the emergency brake and popped the trunk. Five minutes later, Alexander had taken Mom's car and split. I was in a dark maroon ski-mask, the same colored hoody and exercise pants (I already had on Black shoes and socks), night vision goggles and video camera with a really excellent audio system that would allow me to negate things like cricket noises.Dark red and maroon were better than black, or grey, in hiding at night. I was virtually invisible in the darkness. After checking the wireless hook-up, I found my pre-scouted spot to watch and record the festivities. Thirty-two Black football players, ten Black girls and seventeen White girls filled the stage.First came the drinking and pawing. Then came the rough-housing and the screams of the few White girls who were only now realizing they weren't on a 'date' in the classic sense. Then came the orgy. For the Black athletes who didn't bring dates, it didn't matter.Every White girl had three holes, take your pick. Beers, whisky, Red Bulls and Viagra where the diet of choice. The last pleas for mercy were smothered so that only the moaning, groaning and the slapping of hands on flesh and flesh on flesh remained.After an hour, two of the White chicks were fucked up emotionally and mentally. Their obvious distress didn't elicited concern from anyone else in that crowd. They had been turned into Big Black Cock-slaves. The football players gleefully took pictures of their victims and partners in various sex acts.Even for the girls who didn't want to participate, this was a license to shame. After the latest rounds of ejaculations, Darius gathered up some of his niggers and sent them to the parking lot; to find me already departed (my car not being there). The two other White boys hadn't a clue where I had gone.That was their misfortune. They were dragged back down to the lake for Darius to interrogate. Their so-called girlfriends taunted them and added to their degradation. Since BBC's are never homosexually-inclined; the team decided to ass-rape those two saps (yeah, right). Did I pity them?A little, but barring retardation, what did they expect the likely outcome of events to be? Now those two could bask in their home-erotic fantasies while convincing themselves they weren't really gay. Darius and crew didn't view White people as human beings, Whites were subhuman, so the Blacks could do anything to them because sub-humans didn't deserve respect, or have rights.I filmed it all and I wasn't alone in my voyeurism. Undoubtedly, this was blackmail for Darius to use in the future. He also decided to up his game in dealing with me. A Black Deputy Sheriff showed up and began calling my name and looking for me, shining his flashlight around.He was pretending to be helpful, encouraging me to come out, so he could take me home. For fifteen minutes I switched my attention between his futile and false efforts and the (non-)rapes going on at the lakeshore camping grounds.The Deputy eventually made his way down to Darius's area. The two chatted a bit, deciding I really had abandoned Brandy, then the cop partook in some of the party favors, ending his sexcapade with Brandy swallowing his load. He even declared it was partial vengeance against Big Bob (the niggahs laughed) and my Dad (since Brandy was theoretically my date).The festivities died down after the second run at an orgy yet Darius was unsatisfied. First came the throwing of all the ladies into the cool lake waters despite their pleading screams. Then they tossed the two devastated White boys in. After some splashing around and some serious begging and pleading through chattering teeth, they let them out of the water so they could dry off on whatever was handy.The wasted girlfriends of the two boys poured their false dates into their cars and drove away to the chorus of slights and general mockery. Darius had Brandy give me a call (actually Alexander) and requested I (he) come pick her up. I (he) said he would be there in forty-five (lie).Darius' trap was simple but effective. He and four of his linemen would be waiting in a sedan parked at the far, upper-hand corner of the parking lot out of sight. Brandy would wait down on one of the bench-tables in the camping ground for me to arrive. Whether I honked my horn, or got out for her, Darius's team planned to roll down on me, block my car and deliver some well-deserved and overly-delayed vengeance.Once again, Darius was behind in the game. We knew his resources and mindset, he believed he could get away with anything, he would always win and he could intimidate anyone he chose to. From my perspective, Alexander hadn't walked the nearly ten miles from school to get here. I secured my gear, put on my helmet, uncovered my motorcycle and rolled it quietly over to Brandy.‘Here,' I surprised her as I stepped out of the darkness to hand her a motorcycle helmet. ‘Put this on.'‘Vlad,' she squeaked. ‘I thought you had left me.' She was also fiddling with her phone.‘If you make that call, I'll leave you here,' I threatened.‘Leave me here and my Daddy will make you pay,' she countered.‘Brandy, try to think for once,' I taunted her. ‘If I didn't leave, what have I been doing all night?' I let that thought sit there, but she wasn't approaching understanding. ‘I filmed this entire party from start to finish. I'm not the one in serious trouble.'Her fingers hesitantly stopped playing with the phone. I pushed the helmet her way again. She set her phone aside to put it on, allowing me to snatch it up. She hadn't called Darius yet. I pocketed the device then cut it off once she could no longer see it.‘Hey, give me that back,' Brandy insisted.‘You didn't call Darius so I'm not going to toss it into the lake,' I informed her.‘I'll return it to you when I drop you off,' I added. That seemed to mollify her, that and the belief I'd be running into Darius soon. No such luck for her. Mom had spent some of her youth around this place and there were several hiking/biking tracks that also led out of the park the lake was situated in.I lied to Brandy, telling her I had to pick up one more thing. That allowed me to push my motorbike far enough away to put a copse of bushes between me and Darius.‘Get on,' I told her as I mounted and started the engine. She hesitated so I started rolling away. I let her jump on and off we went. Brandy held on tight.Some of her death grip was from the dangerous route I was taking to exit this place. I knew part of it was also the combination of fears that she'd disappointed Darius and I would tell, show, her dad what had happened tonight. I was counting on Option A. I wouldn't tell Big Bob the truth until it suited us Samsonovs. What Brandy suffered for her numerous lies wasn't my concern.‘Here we are,' I told her when I stopped in her driveway. She got off, clearly sore and worn out from her duties as a sperm trough. She gave me the helmet back then held out her hand.‘Oh yeah, phone,' I nodded. I hurled it across her yard. ‘You can find it in the morning. After all, I would hate to run across any of your friends on the way home.'‘Bastard,' she snarled. I could see the clever spark in her eyes. ‘I still owe you a blowjob. You held up your end of the bargain.' She would have succeeded in looking incredibly sexy except she'd already leaked fluids and semen from her over-used holes all over the back of my seat and I had the vivid memories of all the guys who had already made her swallow a gallon of cum.‘No thanks,' I shook my head. ‘One of us needs to keep their self-respect and it sure isn't going to be you. Night-night,' and off I went. My call woke up Big Bob. I let him know I'd dropped off his daughter on his doorstep. I didn't want her to find her phone quite yet. 'Us' triplets had already scouted out an overgrown old timber trail I could use to skirt the Sheriff's speed trap and the blind turn in the road the Kingston cops always used.By my estimation, as I walked up my back steps, Darius was just figuring out I'd missed my forty-five minute arrival time and had called Brandy; and received no response because her phone was turned off in a darkened yard. He'd go looking around the camp site on the off chance her phone battery had run out of juice. No Brandy. As planned, I called Mom telling her I was home safe and Darius was probably hideously pissed at the moment.She told me she'd be home in a few minutes. She had a few things she needed to clean up first. It wasn't until later Mom clued us into her part of the plan. Darius' older brother had been a drug conduit in the county and Brandy's dad put him away for seven years. That was why Darius was going after Brandy in such a bad way.Worse for Big Bob, his wife (a taller, more lush, mature model of Brandy) ran off with a Black Senior Sheriff's Deputy, the man Dad replaced. Apparently he'd been porking the old lady behind Bob's back then been caught joking about it. Brandy had been dating Darius and Big Bob had her break it off, so they were sneaking around behind his back as well.If underhanded was how Darius wanted to play it, so be it. The damage had already been dealt by his older brother. Mom got in touch with Uncle Theo. Uncle Theo knew all kinds of disreputable people and not just drug cartel members, mercenaries, arms dealers and other assorted killers. He also knew information brokers.It didn't take too much money, or effort, on Theo's part, to let the DEA know that Darius' Mom was involved in her elder son's illegal enterprise. First, she went through Darius' parent's trash finding containers that could be used to house cocaine that had his mom and dad's fingerprints all over them.Theo would send her some 'contraband' for Mom to place in those containers. Then she'd sneak into the family home and plant/hide the evidence. Then Theo would have some fool in Mexico send her some trinkets, three or four deliveries would do.Then he'd send a few kilos of cocaine that Theo would ‘acquire' and let the DEA swarm in. Mom would also plant evidence to implicate two of Kingston's police officers; to tarnish the whole department in the DEA's eyes. That would lead to a Federal investigation because everyone knew the Black community lied to protect their own.They would be claiming the Black Man couldn't find justice in the White Man's court system. They would blame the 'White Man' and this time they'd be right; and not even know they were right. They always blamed their problems on the White Man. They did lie and discriminate against White people so often that their knee-jerk reaction would ring hollow to anyone who truly mattered.Furthermore, this wasn't the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department who was bending over backwards to undo centuries of judicial failures were Blacks were concerned. It was the DEA and they were a bit more color-blind concerning matters of illegal drugs.They had the pipeline, previous deliveries, drugs arriving in the mail and drugs stashed in their house. Darius' family had a history of doing this very thing. The DEA wasn't go

Host Tiokasin Ghosthorse catches up with returning guest Dr. Tink Tinker. Dr. Tinker is the Clifford Baldridge Emeritus Professor of American Indian Cultures and Religious Traditions at Iliff School of Theology in Denver, Colorado. He is a citizen of the Osage Nation (wazhazhe) and has been an activist in urban American Indian communities for four decades. He joined the faculty at Iliff School of Theology in 1985 and brought an American Indian perspective to this predominantly euro-christian school. Dr. Tinker is committed to a scholarly endeavor that takes seriously both the liberation of Indian peoples from their historic oppression as colonized communities and the liberation of euro-christian (White) Americans, the historic colonizers and oppressors of Indian peoples, whose self-narrative typically avoids naming the violence committed against Indians in favor of a romance narrative that justifies their euro-christian occupancy of Indian lands. Rocky Mountain PBS has produced a fine documentary in which Dr. Tinker is featured. The documentary has won a regional Emmy award (a Heartland Emmy): A new chapter: Coming to terms with a gruesome legacy (rmpbs.org)Production Credits:Tiokasin Ghosthorse (Lakota), Host and Executive ProducerLiz Hill (Red Lake Ojibwe), ProducerOrlando DuPont, Studio Engineer, Radio KingstonTiokasin Ghosthorse, Audio EditorKevin Richardson, Podcast EditorMusic Selections:1. Song Title: Twist in My SobrietyArtist: Tanita TikaramAlbum: Ancient Heart (1988)Label: Reprise Records2. Song Title: Tahi Roots Mix (First Voices Radio Theme Song)Artist: Moana and the Moa HuntersAlbum: Tahi (1993)Label: Southside Records (Australia and New Zealand)3. Song Title: AmbrosiaArtist: A Reminiscent DriveAlbum: Ambrosia (2000)Label: Toy's FactoryAKANTU INTELLIGENCE Visit Akantu Intelligence, an institute that Tiokasin founded with a mission of contextualizing original wisdom for troubled times. Go to https://akantuintelligence.org to find out more and consider joining his Patreon page at https://www.patreon.com/Ghosthorse

Money Plan/Budget Tracker: https://www.dakotagrady.com/subscribe/ America wants Black people to stay in debt FOREVER! Why? So that we can keep giving our money away to fund other people's communities. Collectively, we earn $1.6 TRILLION! However, we don't know how to manage our finances, we don't own homes compared to our counterparts (i.e., White Americans), and we earn low wages. Therefore, if we continue to borrow money (making other people rich), then we'll stay where were are financially because we won't have the financial resources to invest, save, and create assets that build wealth. Black people know how to "manage" debt (i.e., how to borrow money), but we don't know how to manage money. Let's do something different. That different is to become debt free. How do you become debt free? I'm glad you asked! I'm breaking down: • Three reasons why you should get rid of debt • The simplest and easiest way to become debt free I understand the importance of living debt free. It starts with a mindset shift from being a slave to debt to being free from debt. If you don't change your perspective about debt, you'll "always" have debt. Debt is a thief, not a tool. It's your responsibility to pay off debt. Don't wait for a government bail out to get you out of debt. That's your job! Make 2025 the year that you decide to kick debt to the curb! If you want more tips about money and business, I invite you to join the newsletter to receive hacks and tricks for your personal and business finances to help you rule your money! https://www.dakotagrady.com. Subscribe, and hit the notification bell to never miss a money mastering tip! #personalfinance #financialliteracy #moneytips #moneymanagement #debt #debtfree #finanicalfreedom #credit #creditcard #mortgage #studentloans #automobile #carloans #medicaldebt #heloc

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.ktfpress.comIn this month's bonus episode, we talk all about why and how to have difficult conversations about important political subjects with people who disagree with you. We get into:- What are goals are in these kinds of conversations- Strategies for regulating our emotions and achieving those goals- The power dynamics to keep in mind when having these conversations- And afterward, our segment Which Tab Is Still Open?, diving into a fascinating conversation with Rev. William Barber about what Democrats could gain if they paid attention to poor votersYou can find the video of the portion of this episode that we recorded live at ktfpress.com.Mentioned in the episode- Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell- The Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero- When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert- Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, and Shila Heen- Crucial Conversations by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, and Ron McMillan- John Blake's interview with Rev. William BarberCredits- Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads- Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.- Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.- Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.- Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.- Editing by Sy Hoekstra- Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.- Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Sy Hoekstra: Hey everyone, it's Sy. Quick note before we start. Stay tuned after this recording of our conversation, which we did on Substack Live because we recorded our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, separately due to some time constraints we had. Thanks so much for listening, and the episode officially starts now.Jonathan Walton: If your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place, because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking… [long pause] Jesus, confronting injustice. I am Jonathan Walton [laughter], and we're live on Substack.Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan starts the live by forgetting our tagline [laughter].Jonathan Walton: It's true. It's true. So welcome to Shake the Dust. My name is Jonathan. We are seeking justice, confronting injustice. See, this is live. Live is hard. Go for it, Sy.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Thank you for being here, Sy.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, sure. I'm Sy Hoekstra, that's Jonathan Walton.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live, if you couldn't tell. This is a live recording of our podcast. We are gonna ease into it, and then we'll be good. Don't worry.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live as a recording, and then we will be releasing the audio and the video later to our paid subscribers. So if you're listening, welcome. Alright, we are gonna be talking today about a subject that comes to us from a listener that came in as a question on our finale episode, but it came in a couple hours too late, and I missed it before we started recording. But it was such an interesting question that we decided to make a whole episode out of it. So thank you to Ashley, our listener, who sent this in. We will be talking about basically, how to regulate yourself and actually strategies you can employ when having difficult conversations with people you disagree with on important subjects, the power dynamics and everything all around it, and literally just how to do it, which is actually kind of something that a lot of people have been asking us.Ashley comes at it from a really good angle that we'll be talking about too. So we'll get to all that in a moment. We will also be talking, as we usually do in our episodes, doing our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, diving a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. And this week, we will be talking about a really great interview with William Barber, the Reverend William Barber, and basically how poor people can but often don't affect elections because of the ways that the Republican and Democratic parties approach poor people. So we will get into all that in a second. I will apologize for my voice still sounding like I have a cold. It sounds like I have a cold because I have a cold, and [laughter] I have the eternal fall-winter, father of a two year old in daycare cold [laughs]. So bear with me, and I appreciate your patience. Before we get into all this, Jonathan Walton, go ahead.Jonathan Walton: Well, if you are listening live, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for tuning in, and I just wanna encourage you to become a paid subscriber of our Substack. If you do that, you get access to video and audio of this conversation afterwards, you also get bonus episodes and our entire archive of bonus episodes as well. Plus, when you become a monthly paid subscriber, you also get access to our monthly Zoom chats, and you'll be able to comment on our posts, communicate with us on a regular basis. And so that would be great. Plus, you'll be supporting everything that we can do to help Christians confront injustice and follow Jesus. And so that's particularly in the areas of political discipleship and education, as we try to leave behind the idols of the American church. And for everybody, if you do listen to this, please go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you might listen, and give us a five-star rating. If you wanna give less than that, you can also but you can keep that to yourself.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much for your support and encouragement. We really appreciate it.Sy Hoekstra: Four stars and below, give us those ratings inside your head [laughter]. Also, if you have any questions and you are listening live, feel free to put them in the chat. We can answer those as we go. And alright, Jonathan, let's jump right into it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: We got this question from Ashley. She comes at it from an interesting angle. I wanted to talk about the things that she doesn't wanna do, and then get into her questions. So she said, when she's talking about people that she disagrees with on important political or religious subjects, there's a couple of things that she did growing up. One of which was the only reason that you're engaging in these conversations as a conservative Evangelical, is to change people into you [laughs]. Is to win people over to your point of view and make them the same as you. That's your goal. Then she said she kind of grew up a little bit, went to college, became what she called it, an ungrounded liberal arts major [laughs] and started getting into what she described as the sort of millennial slash Gen Z cusp age that she is.Just it being cool to shut people down and just defeat them, destroy them in an argument. So she's just like, “I don't wanna be there just to make people into me. I don't wanna be there just to destroy people.” But she said now she finds herself in a position where most of the people around her largely agree with her on important subjects, and she just doesn't spend a lot of time around people who don't. So just kind of wants to know how to get into that, because she thinks it is important. She was saying some political organizers really convinced her that it is important to be doing that. And she just wants to know how you regulate yourself, how you go about it, and all that.What's the Goal When You're Having Difficult Disagreements on Important Subjects?Sy Hoekstra: And although that question was really interesting, and we're gonna jump into the actual strategies, I think Jonathan, the place to start is when you're having these conversations with someone, if you're not trying to cut them off, if you're not trying to turn them into you, and you're not trying to shut them down, what are you trying to do? What's the actual goal of what these conversations are? And for those of you who might be listening live or listening to us for the first time, this is Jonathan's wheelhouse [laughter]. This is right in what Jonathan does all the time. So Jonathan, go ahead, tell us what is the actual goal of these conversations?Jonathan Walton: Yes. So I wanna start off by saying that none of this is easy.Sy Hoekstra: For sure.Jonathan Walton: I'm giving you a cookie cutter, boxed up wonderful version of a cake that you don't… Like all the ingredients are in there, all you need to do is add water. And life is not like that.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.The Goal Should Be Connection, not Cutting off or ColonizingJonathan Walton: But if you're not trying to colonize someone or make them into you, and you're not trying to cut someone off just because they disagree with you, or you're not trying to cancel them, shut them down, hold them accountable in a way that leaves them feeling like a puddle of ignorance in front of you, then what you're actually trying to do is connect with them. And so I think that God made us to be in relationship with other people, and being in relationship with other people means that we're able to sit before them, to see and be seen, without trying to consume or control the other person. It's impossible to connect with someone that you're trying to control. It's impossible to connect with someone, to love someone that you're trying to consume, like to be enmeshed with and turn into yourself.And so I think one of the ways that we, what we're actually trying to do, instead of colonizing someone, instead of consuming someone, instead of controlling someone, is to connect with them. And so the foundational question that we need to ask ourselves when we're in conversations with someone who we disagree with is, “What do we want from the relationship?” So, yeah, we want to connect. And then we ask ourselves the deeper questions, hey, Ashley, [laughter] a deeper question of, “What kind of connection do I want with this person?” So for example, I know a couple. They voted differently in the election.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Than each other, or than you?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Than each other.Sy Hoekstra: Okay.Jonathan Walton: I don't know if how I voted will even come up, because that wasn't the premise of the conversation.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: But this couple, their actual argument is not about like you voted for Trump and you wanted him not to vote for him. The actual thing is, how do we love each other amidst a disagreement? Because they don't know how to hold the reality that I believe something different from you and we can still remain connected. The only option they have is to consume the other person or calling them out, “You need to think like me.” Or be consumed, “I need to think like you.” Or, “Do we need to get a divorce?” Like, no. It is possible to remain connected to someone while being in disagreement, even vehement disagreement. I think what we actually need to agree on is, how do we wanna be connected? I think that's the foundational question.Connection Versus ConversionSy Hoekstra: Yeah. I like that a lot. It's funny, when we were talking about this, this did not… I don't do emotional health and relationship discipleship and all that kind of thing that Jonathan does all the time. And your answer did not immediately occur to me [laughs]. I was thinking about Ashley's question, and I was like, “Wait a minute, what is the goal? I don't even know.” Anyways, I think the framework of connection is super, super helpful, and I appreciate you laying it out for us. And it's helpful for a couple of reasons. One is, it roots us in actual relationships, meaning your real life circumstances are what's guiding you. Your goals in your relationships is what is guiding you in how you approach the question of how you have these conversations.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And then it's something that is sort of an antidote to that evangelical tendency to try to convert everyone, like you were talking about.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Meaning, it's like, if you have a separate goal, then you can leave those other goals behind. But those other goals, if you don't have a new goal, those goals always stick. How you were raised is not going to change or move or be as prominent in your mind if you're not replacing it with something else.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: It's something that you can focus on, that you can actually do. Meaning you can make as much of an effort as you can to connect with someone, and they might not work, but you know that you did everything that you could, as opposed to trying to change someone. If your goal is changing people or defeating people, that never works. It very rarely works. And this is a weird thing that a lot of, I've realized growing up in evangelical churches, you couldn't face this directly, the fact that the overwhelming attempts that you made to evangelize someone didn't work [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.Sy Hoekstra: That was just a reality that you had to ignore. The vast majority of the people that you tried, they ignored you and walked on their way. And you couldn't just stop and go like, “Maybe the thing that I'm offering them is actually not all that attractive [laughs]. Maybe the church or the community or whatever, is getting in the way of…” That stuff you couldn't face. You had to believe that you had the best way, and you had to change people, or you had to shut them down. You had to shut down your opponents if you were talking about, atheists or whatever. And that stuff, it leads to constant anxiety, because you don't control the outcome, but you want to.You feel like you have to control the outcome, but you do not control the outcome. And when it comes to connection, again, you don't control the outcome, but the goal is that you attempt, you do everything that's in your power to attempt to reach your goal of connection with this person.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And then it also filters out the people that you don't need to have a connection with [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You don't have to respond to trolls. You know what I'm saying? You don't have to convert everyone. Because you're not trying to do all those things, it takes a lot of pressure off you. But I'm sorry, you were trying to say something. Go ahead.Jonathan Walton: Well, no, I think just to give some other resources, I'm pulling from Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell. I'm pulling from Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas. I'm pulling from Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero. I'm pulling from Difficult Conversations. There's like, Crucial Conversations and Difficult Conversations and I get them mixed up.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And also I'm pulling from When Helping Hurts. Because, oftentimes too, When Helping Hurts, I think it's really good, because we can start out with really good intentions, with trying to do something, quote- unquote, good for someone, when I think in reality what Sy was saying is true. We can only control what we desire, how we communicate that desire, and then pursuit of that desire.There is Vulnerability in Pursuing Connection as a GoalJonathan Walton: And then the other person actually gets to respond to that. And what's difficult about being vulnerable in connecting is that if you're trying to convert someone or control someone or colonize someone, they are rejecting a message or an idea. Or is it whereas if you are trying to connect with someone, you could feel rejected.And I think it's easier to try and persuade someone, or convince someone of an idea, rather than it is to connect with you as a person. I've been rejected by people, not just romantically [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: That too, though.Jonathan Walton: And it hurts. That as well. It's true. Tears.Sy Hoekstra: Sorry [laughter].Jonathan Walton: But one of the things is… No, it's cool. It's alright. Things worked out, praise God. But I think there's a vulnerability in, let's say I'm having a conversation with someone and they say, “Hey, Jonathan, I don't actually believe that police reform should happen. I think it's a few bad apples.” I have a few ways to go in that conversation. I could say, “Hey. Have you seen these statistics from this magazine and these FBI reports?” And go down deep into why Memphis is rejecting federal oversight. I could do that. Or I could say, “Oh, I feel afraid when you say that, because the results of that are, I'm afraid to walk outside my house because there aren't people actively pushing for reforms in the police department that occupies my neighborhood.”And that is vulnerability, because they could then invalidate my fears with their response, or whatever the thing is, but I think that that's the costly work of following Jesus in those moments.You Don't Need to Have Conversations with People Whose Goals Are Not ConnectionSy Hoekstra: Yeah. And just one more note on the goal, because we're starting to get into how these conversations actually work. But I did just wanna say one more thing about the overall goal of connection first before we move into that, just because I think this one is important. Especially for people who do ministry work of some kind, or talk about the kind of things that we talk about publicly, is if your goal is connection and the other person's goal is not connection, that's another reason that you don't have to talk to them [laughs]. Meaning, here's what I'm talking about here. I've seen you, Jonathan, in situations with people who do the kind of classic Christian thing when they disagree with something you're saying in public. They come to you and they say, “Hey, I've heard you talking about, let's say, police brutality. And I have some thoughts, I was wondering if we could just talk about it. Could we set up some time to have a Zoom?”And I've seen you go like, say to this person in not so many words basically, “I don't actually think that your goal is to have a conversation right now. I think you're upset with what I'm saying and you want to try and change me. Is that correct?”Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: You just said that to them, and not rudely. You put it in kind words, but you're just like, “Am I right in thinking that that's really what you want here?” And if they can't say no, then you will say, “Okay, I'm sorry. I don't really think I have time for this,” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And move on. Which is something that I don't think a lot of ministers feel the need to do. But if someone is cutting off the possibility of connection from the jump, and all they're saying is, “I want to change you,” or they're refusing to not say that all they want is to change you, [laughs] you don't have to talk to them. You have no responsibility to talk to that person because you don't have a responsibility to get into an argument with anyone. Even as a pastor. Your responsibility is to shepherd people and to lead people, and if our conversation is just going to be an argument, you don't have to talk to them. You may still want to, everything I say is subject to your personal relationships with people and your individual circumstances, but that's an option, and I want more people to know that [laughs], because I think a lot of people spend a lot of time trying to just win arguments when they don't need to be having them.Winning Arguments Is Not What Leads to RepentanceJonathan Walton: Yeah. And also too, I think we've misidentified what the fruit of a won argument is.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So for example, if I preach a sermon, or I have a conversation with a small group of people and I give a call to faith, and someone decides to follow Jesus, I did not win an argument. They're not saying I have the best ideas, or I presented things in a really compelling way, none of that is happening. What's happening is the Holy Spirit is working within them for them to respond in some way. It's the kindness of God that leads to repentance. The Gospel is the power and transformation. I can't say, “You know what? What I drew on that napkin, or what I put in that card, when the PowerPoint slide opened and everybody went, ooh,” like, no. That was not the power. It is the power of God that draws people nigh into himself.Sy Hoekstra: Nigh unto himself [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. KJV baby. KJV [laughter].How Do We Achieve Connection in Difficult Conversations?Sy Hoekstra: So let's get into then the actual strategies and kind of the meat of the question.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: That's it. Let's get into, how do you regulate yourself and what do you actually do to achieve the goal of connection?We Have to Know Ourselves to Connect with OthersJonathan Walton: Yeah, so I think the first thing is that we can't know other people unless we know ourselves. So for example, if… let's say I was having a conversation over the weekend with someone, and they said to me, “Well, I can't believe they would think that way.” And then I said, “Well, if I were in your situation, I would be pretty angry at that response. Are you upset? Do you feel angry?” I have to know, and be willing to name that I would be angry. I have to know, and be willing to imagine, like how to empathize. Like I'm listening to them, then I wanna empathize with how they're feeling, and then ask them, “Does that resonate with you?” To build some sort of emotional connection so that we stay grounded in them as an individual and not stepping up to the argument. Like “Oh, yeah. Absolutely, what they did was wrong.”I don't wanna participate in condemning other people either. I wanna connect with this person. We could commiserate around what happened, but I think we should prioritize what is happening for the person right in front of me, not just rehashing what happened to them. You know what I mean? Like figure out what's going on. So I think we have to know ourselves to be able to know other people, which includes that emotional awareness and intelligence. And then I think after that, we should affirm what's true about that person. And then, if we've done that, then be able to ask some questions or share our own perspective.Sy Hoekstra: Or what's true about what they're saying.Jonathan Walton: Yes, what's true about what they're saying, yeah. And then be able to lean in there. And if there is an opportunity and the person desires to hear what you think about it, then that's great, but I guarantee you, they will not wanna hear about what you're saying if you don't connect with them first. And so creating or building a foundation of trust that you're not trying to just convert them or consume them or colonize them, but you are trying to connect requires that first part. So slowing down, then knowing how we feel, and then being able to connect around that level is a great place to start.Connect with Whatever Is True in What the Other Person Is SayingSy Hoekstra: Can you tell us what finding what's true and what someone is saying and then affirming that value, what does that actually sound like?Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. So let's go to a different script. There was a woman that had a conversation with me and was very upset that Black people could vote for Trump. This was a racially assigned White woman saying these things. And she was, I mean, raising her voice very loud, and so I said my goal… I did actually speak over her. I said, “So my goal in this conversation is for us as a group to remain connected and aware of each other and ourselves. What is your goal in what you're saying?” And I think that kind of threw cold water in her face because she didn't know what to do with that. And so she slowed down, then she said, “Well, I don't know. I haven't processed anything,” that was kind of what she blurted out.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I knew that, actually [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I said, “It's great that like you need… this is a space to process.” I said, “What I would love for you to do is to slow down and tell us what you want, because I don't think you want me to be angry, and that's actually how I'm feeling right now. Was that your goal, was for me to feel angry and disconnected from you?” And she goes, “Well, you shouldn't be mad at me.” I said, “I can own my feelings. I didn't say you made me angry. I said my feeling in what you're saying is anger. Is that your intention? Is that what you're trying to foster? Because I would actually like to have my emotional response match your intent.” And it was not an easy conversation, but she did say after about 15 minutes of this kind of back and forth, she said, “I wanted to just close my computer,” is what she said, “But I didn't.” And then I said, “I'm so glad you chose to stay.”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: “I'm so glad you chose to remain in our group. And to affirm again, you are valuable here, we desire your contribution and things like that.”Sy Hoekstra: And you were specifically in like a cohort that you were leading.Jonathan Walton: And I think it is hard to move towards someone who… Yeah, I was leading. I was leading. And everybody else was silent. They were not saying anything, but I had follow up conversations with one person after that, who said they were very grateful that I did that, because they were like, “I didn't know that you could be patient like that with someone so animated.” They were like, “I don't understand how you were calm in that situation.” I said, “Well, I was calm because I knew who I was. I was facilitating the conversation. I was leading the dialogue.” And I said, “When I'm with my mom,” not my mom, my mom passed away. “But if I was with my dad or my brothers in that conversation, I would have to do the same thing, but it will require more work because of the emotional history that's there. This history of my family and stuff under the bridge.”So each relationship is gonna bring with it its own porcupine quills, if you will, but that doesn't mean our steps change. I think our goal is to love our neighbor as ourselves. And if we don't know ourselves, we can't love our neighbors. So in the way that we would want patience and want grace and want respect, I think we need to extend that as best as we possibly can by trying to build a connection.Sy Hoekstra: And if you're talking about, I think that's really good for a discipleship situation. Anybody who disciples people, I hope you just learned something from that story [laughs]. But if you're having, by the way, Jonathan, I've noticed as we're talking, there's a very long delay. So I apologize.Jonathan Walton: No worries.Sy Hoekstra: I just interrupted you with something that was related to something you said like three sentences later, I'm sorry [laughs].Jonathan Walton: You're all good [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: So I think when it comes to a political issue, if you're talking to someone who's saying something that you find very hurtful or very upsetting or whatever, which is where I think a lot of these questions come up for people. For a lot of people it's, “How do I talk to a Trump supporter?” That's kind of the question.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And then, like Jonathan said, it's going to be very hard. It's going to depend on your relationship with that person. And this work can be hard. It's very hard to get people to talk about their emotions, but that's what we need to do when somebody's talking… if they're being very anti-immigrant. You need to find a way into how they're communicating and what they're saying as angry as they are, whatever. An underlying thing might be, “I feel insecure about the economy of our country, I feel insecure about my job. I feel like I'm not gonna be able to provide because somebody's gonna undercut me in wages or whatever.” All that stuff. And the way to connect with that person is to say, “That makes sense, that feeling. And if I felt that that was happening to me, I would also be insecure.”Maybe it is also happening to you, you know what I mean? You have to just find a way into that feeling, and then say, “But the way that I feel secure is X, Y and Z, about…” If you want to talk about solidarity and lifting everyone up actually makes all of us more secure. You can get into the nitty gritty of immigration and economics, if you know that stuff, and say [laughs], “Actually, in general, immigrants really help us economically. And so I actually feel more secure. I know that immigrants commit crime at lower rates than citizens. And I trust the numbers that say that, and that comes from police departments. We can go look at your police department stats. So immigrants coming in actually lowers crime. I know that's a shock, but. So I feel more secure.” All that kind of like, you try and find a way to connect on the emotion and speak in a… What I'm doing right now is summarizing and being slightly glib, but [laughs] I think that's the best you can do.People You Connect with May Not Change, or Take a Long Time to ChangeSy Hoekstra: And I know to some people, if you have a really obstinate person that feels hopeless and impossible, and I think what we're saying is you give it your best shot, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And there's nothing you can do about it not working. And it might also be something, by the way, where you talk to them now and that's the beginning of a 10-year process of them changing.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: You don't know. This is why I said that stuff's out of your hands, is what I mean. So that's where we need to find our own internal piece about it. And then, I don't know, there's a number of other thoughts I have about what you have to do to prepare for all that, like the prep work that goes into it. But do you have other thoughts about that, Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: Well, I mean, I think just all of what you said is true, and I just wanna lean into what you said about, you cannot rush the process of that relationship. Because if your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place. Because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day. We've got to be able to have conversations with people that are deeper and contain the multitudes that a person holds, as opposed to the latest tweet or share that they had.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: We're talking with people, we're not talking with a minimally viable product that's before us like, “Do I want this or not in my life?” And so I think even in the, let's take the example, like Caleb Campbell did a great example of this immigration. If someone actually believed that they were going to be invaded, I'm making quotes with my fingers, but invaded and they're gonna lose their job and they're gonna lose their emotional and spiritual and social security, not Social Security like the actual entitlement program, but social security like their feeling of social safety, that is objectively terrifying. If that is the narrative, then we can actually connect with people around why they're afraid.And if we connect with them why they're afraid, not convince them why they shouldn't be scared, then you actually have the opportunity to share with them why they may not need to be afraid. Because, as Sy said, immigrants crime actually goes down. Immigrants actually pay billions of dollars in taxes. Immigrants actually start businesses at a higher rate than our native population. All those things, but we can't get there unless we're connected. We cannot correct people without connecting with them. So, yeah.Getting Good at Connection Takes PracticeSy Hoekstra: Yeah. I think this takes a ton of practice.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You will be bad at it at first, and that's [laughter]… So I think another part of it is you have to know why it's important to you. That's another thing, and that's a personal thing. But you have to understand why connection with someone whose political beliefs or whatever you find kind of abhorrent [laughs] is something that is important to you, that work has to be done on your own and ahead of time.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You also have to take into account… sorry. You'll just get better at it over time. So meaning it, I'd say it's only like in the last few years that I've really been able to participate in extremely difficult conversations about politics or whatever, and just be okay [laughter], no matter what the consequence of it is. And sometimes that's still not true, depending on the relationship I have with the person, but I don't know. You've got to remember that people… actually, at the beginning I remember I told you she talked about, as a young person or as millennials and Gen Z wanting to shut people down. And I actually don't think that's a generational thing. I think that's just a young people thing.I think when I was 22 I thought it was awesome to shut people down [laughs]. And I think all the most recent, this is something I know from justice advocacy work, but all the recent neurology science basically tells us you don't have an adult brain until you're like 25 [laughter]. You don't have your impulse control, you know what I mean? It's just hard.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And it just takes time to retrain yourself to do something, It can take years. So fear not, is what I'm saying, if you think you're bad at this.Being Aware of How Much You Know about a SubjectSy Hoekstra: And then I think something that's kind of deceptively emotional is the things that don't seem emotional, like knowing your facts and being able to bow out of conversations when you don't know your facts [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Like if you have a feeling that something's wrong, but somebody's saying something wrong, or bigoted, or whatever, but you don't have the information, A, it's gonna make you much more comfortable if you do have the information, if you've read up on it, if you know the subjects. Because you find as you dig deeper into different political issues and hot button topics, there really are only so many opinions that people have, and they're usually based on relatively shallow understandings of information. So you can know a lot of the arguments ahead of time. You can know a lot of the important facts ahead of time. You've just kind of got to pay attention and that's something that happens over time.And then if you don't know that stuff, and you try and engage anyway just based on instinct, you're gonna have a lot of times where you say stuff that you regret later [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You're gonna have a lot of times where you maybe even make up something just because you wanna be right and you wanna win.Jonathan Walton: Yes, you wanna win.Sy Hoekstra: And then bowing out and letting someone believe their terrible thing without you fighting against it, sometimes that can be really hard, but that's an emotional issue, that's something about you being…Jonathan Walton: Right. That's a feeling. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's always gonna be feelings, and that's why you got to have your goals clear, and whenever you can, know your stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Adam just said something, really quick. He said, “I've literally had notification of high heart rate from my Apple watch during such conversations.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Yes.Jonathan Walton: And being able to have conversations without a high heart rate notification is becoming more normal.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Good.Jonathan Walton: Yes, that has happened to me so many times. And it's true. It's fewer, it's less than what it was before that.Sy Hoekstra: That's so funny. I don't have a smart watch, so that's never happened to me, but that's so funny. And I'm glad that it's improving for both of you [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And it's a way to track if your spiritual formation's actually forming you [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: True.Engaging in Hard Conversations with Connection as a Goal is ExhaustingSy Hoekstra: So one more thing though is, this is exhausting.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: One of the reasons it's exhausting is not just because the whole thing is hard, but the issue is no one's ever gonna come to you, again, I guess, unless you're a pastor, and say, “Hey, next Wednesday at 4:00 pm I wanna talk to you about immigration.”Jonathan Walton: Right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: They're going to come to you, you're gonna be having a dinner, and there's gonna be a completely random out of nowhere comment that you do not expect coming and your instinct may be in that moment to get angry or to just let it pass because you don't wanna deal with right now or whatever. And all that you have to take that into account. Again, over time it'll get easier to respond to random acts of racist bigotry, whatever. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: But it is something that's hard to do for anyone, and so you need to take the exhaustion of constantly being on alert into account when you think about, how do I wanna connect with this person? Because if it's someone where you have to be on alert the whole time and ready to go at any moment [laughs], that's difficult. And that's somebody that you might need to hang out with less or whatever.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You have to make those decisions for yourself. And so I'm just saying, be willing to take that into account. Be alert to that way that you can become exhausted. Because, again, if you're really tired and you just have a snap reaction, you can say stuff you regret later.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Alright, Jonathan. Do you have… Yeah, you have thoughts. Go ahead and then we'll get to...Jonathan Walton: No, I was gonna say, off all of that, I think is mitigated by asking myself, “What kind of connection do I want with this person?”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And all of us have relationships that are not as healthy as we'd like them to be. And if my goal is not to convert someone or I don't feel this like abnormal, huge weight of this person's salvation, because that's not my responsibility, then I can say, “You know what? I just can't be with that person right now. I just can't do that.” And be able to enter into that in a healthier way, and it'll be a more loving thing.The Power Dynamics of Difficult ConversationsSy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely. Let's just get into, I think that's a lot of the meat of it, but let's talk about just some of the power dynamics and other things that are going on during these conversations. Jonathan, I'm happy to start if you want, but you can go ahead if you have some things you wanna flag for people.Jonathan Walton: Well, I think if we're not thinking about power dynamics then we're missing what's actually happening. So when men to women, able-bodied to disable-bodied, rich to poor, educated to uneducated. All of these things are playing all the time. So somebody's like, “Oh, you're playing the race card, or you're being ageist,” that's just the table. It's not a card. That's just the society we live in. We live in a segregated, stratified society. And so to be able to be aware of that, I think respects whether you are in the ecosystem or whether you've been lifted up by the ecosystem because of the hierarchies that we live in. I think that's just something we have to take into account of where we are and where the person that we are engaging with is or is perceived to be, then that can be a gift, just in the conversation. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: So that's sort of like keeping in mind whether you're talking to someone who's basically [laughs] above or below you on different hierarchies, which is gonna be important. Like, if you're talking, if I as a White person am talking to a Black person about race, I have to understand the dynamics. For me, at least, what I'm thinking about is I have to be personally familiar with the stuff that Black people hear all the time [laughs], and how it is often heard, and that sort of thing. Not because I need to apply a monolithic understanding of race conversations to any individual, but just to know that that individual is probably going to hear something I say this way, or feel this way about something.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: I'm sorry about the sirens in my background. I live in Manhattan [laughter]. So I think that's one thing. But then the other way is I as a disabled person, if I'm trying to talk to an able-bodied person about disability stuff, I just need to take into account how much more tiring that's going to be, and the work that I may have to do after the conversation to process whatever terribly insulting thing was said to me [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And I do that all the time. That's something I have to do when I get home from dropping my daughter off at daycare. It just depends on what happened on the way there, or whatever. Another thing is that the, a person you're talking to can always walk away [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Nobody needs to be in this conversation, and that you need to be able to accept that. You need to be able to let people go the way that Jesus did when they rejected his teachings. Because if you don't do that and [laughs] you try and force them into conversations with you, again, that's what we're trying to avoid doing, is panicking about the results and trying to make somebody like you because you think the world needs to be the way that you are. That's the colonialist mindset [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: And then I think one other thing for me is how the person… this is back on the hierarchy thing. How what somebody else is saying is affecting other people around you, or the other person that that person has to interact with. Meaning the person that you're trying to connect with might be someone, like not the person you're talking to. It might be somebody who's sitting next to you, it might be somebody who's not there.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So that's just the other thing to keep in mind, because you might be trying to show somebody else that they have support, that's a huge thing. That's the person who you have a conversation with after your cohort call that you were talking about earlier. And it might be just like, if I'm talking to another White person and I know, actually doesn't matter if I know them or not, but if I'm talking about connection, if I know people of color who have to talk to this person and they're saying something that I think I can head off or correct in some way, then I should do that. And I should keep in mind my connection with that White person, but I've also top of mind it's gonna be the connection that I have with people of color who interact with that person too.Okay, those are my thoughts on that big question. Jonathan, do we have anything else to say about these conversations before we move to Which Tab Is Still Open?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Well, I don't have anything more to say about that conversation. I do have two problems that our live audience will get to engage with.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: One is that I need to get… it's one o'clock.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so I have a time stop.Sy Hoekstra: Right now?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And my phone is also telling me, yeah, because I was thinking, I didn't know we're gonna talk past one o'clock, but…Sy Hoekstra: [laughter] Well, we started like 12:15 so.Jonathan Walton: We did. We did, we did. And then my phone as we entered into this conversation is on the red.Sy Hoekstra: Is about to die. Alright, cool. So then I think what we'll do, Jonathan, is we'll record the Which Tab Is Still Open separately, and just add that to the bonus episode.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: So again, everybody, if you wanna hear the recordings of this afterwards, and now I guess the extended version of this episode, become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com, or just on, you're on Substack right now if you're listening to us. Become a paid subscriber, that would be amazing. If you wanna get our newsletter that's actually free, you can follow us on the free list and get us that way. Thank you so much for joining us today, we really appreciate it. Give us a five-star review on Apple or Spotify and we will see you next month. We do these once a month now that we're in the off season. And our theme song is “Citizens”, by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. Joyce Ambale does the transcripts. I'm doing the editing right now and the production of this show, along with our paid subscribers. Thank you all so much for joining us, and we will hopefully see you next month or on the paid list.Jonathan Walton: Yep, bye.Sy: Bye.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Which Tab Is Still Open?: Rev. William Barber and Poor VotersSy Hoekstra: And now this is the separate recording of Which Tab Is Still Open. We're gonna dive a little bit deeper into one of the articles from the newsletter that Jonathan brought up recently. Jonathan, why don't you tell us about the article, and we'll get into a little discussion about it.Jonathan Walton: Yes. So our good friend, John Blake, award winning journalists and former guest on this podcast interviewed Reverend Dr William Barber on his thoughts after the election. It was one of the most interesting things I read post-election, because Dr Barber has a perspective most politicians and pundits just don't. He takes a perspective of poor people seriously, like Jesus [laughter]. And so one of the things he argues was that about 30 million poor people who are eligible voters usually don't vote because neither party is addressing the issues that are important to them, like minimum wage, affordable health care, strengthening unions, etc.There was talk about strengthening unions, but not in the ways that communicate about the needs and priorities of low wage and poor workers. Republicans mostly blame poor people for their poverty, that is a consistent thing over the last 60 years. And Democrats ignore them altogether because they see them not as a viable voting block to mobilize, we should get middle class voters, which is not the same as the working poor. Barber has a history of successfully organizing multiracial coalitions of poor working class people in North Carolina to make real difference in elections. So it's not just a theoretical thing, like you can actually win elections by doing what MLK did, which Barber is in the tradition of you can have a multicultural coalition of impoverished or economically impoverished, marginalized people in the United States and actually have and hold power in the country.So even as Kamala Harris lost in November in North Carolina, voters elected a Democratic Governor and Attorney General and got rid of the veto-proof majority in the state legislature, even with all of the nonsensical gerrymandering that exist there. So Sy, what are your thoughts on all this?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I'm very happy that somebody in the mainstream news is actually talking about this [laughs]. That's one thing. I just haven't heard... This is one of those things where if somebody, if the Democrats got this right, they could win a lot more. I don't know how much more, Reverend Barber is very optimistic about it. I haven't dug into the numbers the way that he has as a political organizer, but he basically says if you swing like 10 percent of the poor vote in any direction in many states, and you could change a whole lot of stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, you can read the article for his exact arguments. But it is definitely true that we don't address poor voters any real way, like we get stuck on, I've talked about this before, the bias toward, quote- unquote, real America, which sort of amounts to working and middle class White people and really does not address actually impoverished people. And the average, Reverend Barber is very sensitive to this, which I think is why he's effective, is the average welfare recipient in the United States today is still White. That hasn't changed. Welfare recipients are disproportionately Black and Brown. But the demographics of this country are such that you can be disproportionately high as a racial minority, but White people are still gonna be the majority of the welfare recipients.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And the potential interest alignment between those groups has always been intentionally broken up by elites in this country. And the thing that this raises for me is our constant, throughout our whole history, our belief that basically, poor people's opinions don't matter, that poor people's interests don't matter, and maybe poor people shouldn't even be voting in the first place. We had to have a movement in this country for universal White male suffrage [laughs] in the first few decades of this country, that was a fight. And the reason was they did not want you voting originally, if you didn't own property. And the belief behind that was, if you don't have property, then you don't have a stake in society. You don't have a sufficient stake in society to, I don't know, uphold the responsibility of voting.And in a lot of different ways that bias or that bigotry, frankly, has shot through a lot of different ways that we think about economics and politics. And just the idea like, it does not make sense to start with. If anything, the people with the most stake in how the government treats them are the people with the least power, with the with the way that society is run, are going to be the people who suffer the most when society is run poorly [laughs]. And the people who have the most independent wealth and power, meaning they can, regardless of what the government is doing, they're going to be generally alright, because they are wealthy landowners, if we're talking about the beginning of this country. They're actually kind of the least interested in how society runs, and maybe the most interested in maintaining the status quo and not having things change, which I think is what we're actually talking about.I think we're actually talking about not having significant change [laughs] in our economics, when we talk about the people who have the most quote- unquote, responsibility or the most sense of responsibility for how the society goes. And I think all of that bleeds into how both parties think today, because both parties are made up of elites. And I think there was this huge and terrible reaction to the CEO of United Healthcare being assassinated. And I was reading some stuff about it that basically said, if you're talking about healthcare, which is one of the issues that William Barber brought up, I think the reason that a lot of people don't understand the anger and the glee over the fact that this guy was killed online, which there was a ton of, which I don't support.But if you're trying to understand it there's so many elites who are the healthcare CEOs themselves, the politicians who write healthcare policy for whom, the biggest problem that health insurance is ever going to be is maybe a significant amount of paperwork. Maybe you get something declined or not covered, and you have to fight a little bit and then you get it covered again. It's not something that's going to bankrupt you or kill you. But that's a reality for many, many people around the country.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And if it's not bankrupt or kill, it's long, grinding trauma over a long period of time.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And it's just so easy for us to lose sight of stuff like that and then not understand as a political party, why addressing those problems directly wouldn't matter. And when I say us in that case, I mean people who are economically comfortable and who have educated and are doing okay in this society. And so all this is what Barber's comments bring up for me is, he is trying to pay attention to real needs that real people have, and alert his party, the Democrats, to the fact that if they understood and paid attention to and took those needs seriously, they would have a ton of voters who nobody's counting on right now. Like there's no strategy around them.It's not you would be stealing voters from the Republicans, you would be bringing in a whole bunch of new voters and doing something that no one is expecting, and you'd be able to [laughs] actually make a big difference that way. Jonathan, if you have any thoughts or just your own responses to me, or your own thoughts.Jonathan Walton: Well, I think there's a there's a few things like, yeah, I'm grateful for John Blake and for media personalities that take the time to center the most marginalized people, because that was not the conversation. All the post mortem of the Democratic Party and the celebration of what Trump did, neither one of those things included real solutions for materially impoverished people in the United States. They were not a group of people that were, when you said, counted, it's literally they're not counted. They do not count in that way. There isn't analysis, there isn't engagement. And so that I think is deeply saddening. So I'm grateful for John Blake for highlighting it. I'm grateful for Barber for the work that he does.I think one of the things that highlights for me is the… because you use the word elite, and I think there was an essay a while ago that I read about the word elite and what it means and how we use it. Like Tucker Carlson says the elites, when in reality he is elite. Elite is Hell.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The money that he makes, the universities that he went to, the position that he holds. Me and you are elite. We both have Ivy League educations, we both have graduate degrees. We are both financially secure, we are both educated and well connected. And the majority of, some of that, that I realize is that if I have those things I am insulated from the suffering that millions of people experience around health insurance. And because our classes in the United States are segregated and our churches are also often segregated, we are not going to have relationships with people that are struggling with these things. It's very difficult, at least for me, to live in Queens, to have conversations and relationships that are cross class.My children participate in activities that cost money. That's a proxy for a class decision. I drive, I do not take the train. That is a class communication. I live in a home and I own it, I do not rent. That's a class. I drive to a supermarket like Costco. You have to pay for a membership to be in Costco. These are all economic decisions, and there are going to be certain groups of people that I do not interact with every single day, because I have more money. And so I think if we stretch that out across the Democratic, Republican independent leadership in our country, the majority of us do not interact with people that are from a different class, higher or lower. And so we have these caricatures of what life looks like, which is why an executive can say it doesn't matter if we deny or defend or depose or delay or all the things that were written on these bullets that came from the person that killed the United Healthcare CEO.The reality is, I think we do not… I don't think, I know this, we do not prioritize the poor in this country. And to what you were saying, it's not that we don't prioritize poor and marginalized people, it's a strategic, intentional exclusion of them. So [laughs] like you said, the reality is, if you were not a wealthy land-owning White person, you were not allowed to vote or hold elected office. And so that's a reality. So each time a tier of people wanted to be included, there was an argument, there was a fight, there was war, there was violence. And so I believe that there is an opportunity that Barber is talking about too. It does not have to be violent to include people who are poor and marginalized.It's really just a decision to and the time and intentionality to do it. And I wish that the church did that. I wish that politicians did that. I wish that we did that as a society. And I recognize in my own life it is even still difficult to do because of how our society has set up invisible and very real fences between economic communities.Sy Hoekstra: And it's remarkable for you to say that in some ways. I mean, it makes sense that you would be the person to notice it, but it is remarkable in some ways for you to say it because you grew up as you've talked about many times, quite poor in the rural south.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And you are actually directly connected to people who don't have a lot of money, right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And that's still your reality that your day to day life does not involve that many poor people.Jonathan Walton: Right. And that is, to be totally transparent, that is one of the hardest things about getting older and having children. When we go home, when I say home I'm thinking Brodnax.Sy Hoekstra: The small farming town in Virginia that you're from.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Where I'm from. It's exceptionally clear to me that the access that I have to resources, the decisions that I'm making each day are infused with the wealth and resources that surround me, just by virtue of the location that I live in. So we have to do really, really, really hard work to include people who are across classes in our lives, so that when we consider what we're going to do with our power, they are included in that decision. And I think Barber did a great job of explaining why that is strategically important as well.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, so two points. One is, thank you for talking about that. For those of you who don't know, Jonathan and I are good friends. That's why I can say, “Hey Jonathan, let's talk about [laughs] your background as a poor person.”Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: We've talked about this a ton on the show before, Jonathan is very open about it in public. And that, I actually think, hearing you talk about the tension and how your hometown is versus your new adopted home, a lot of that is actually part of the answer. Just people being willing to be totally open about their own financial circumstances, and the differences they see between places, because that is something that we hush up and we talk about, we make it shameful to talk about your money. We make it shameful for everyone to talk about their money. You're not supposed to talk about it if you're rich, you're not supposed to talk about it if you're poor [laughs]. You're basically only supposed to talk about it if you're right where the Republicans think real Americans are [laughter]. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And yeah, just being willing to talk about it openly and in a not ashamed way actually goes a long ways to breaking some of the taboos that hold the silence on these issues. That's one thing. The other thing is, you said at the end just now, that William Barber would argue that it is strategic to basically address the needs of the poor voters who are not voting. But earlier you said it is a strategic exclusion, or like a strategic that they're evading talking about these issues.Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. So in the Constitution, there is a strategic exclusion of poor, marginalized, non-White-land-owning-educated-well-healed people. There's the intentional strategic exclusion of those people for the maintenance of power and dominance, right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And I think there needs to be a strategic, intentional inclusion of those people, and the intentional redistribution, and I know people hate that word, redistribution [laughs] of resources, so that people can be included in our society in a meaningful way.Sy Hoekstra: Well, Jonathan's a communist. You heard it here first.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] It's not the first time I've been accused of loving the Marx.Sy Hoekstra: Loving the… [laughs]. But I think the other aspect of it is just, the reality is that the donors that support both parties, these are not priorities of theirs. In fact, a lot of times they're opposed to the priorities of theirs. They are the healthcare CEOs. They are the people who have to negotiate against the unions. They are the people who would have to pay up the higher minimum wages. So that's part of the thing that makes it challenging. But Barber's been able to do the work [laughs] in North Carolina and make a difference there. And it's not… and he was one of the people, organizing like his is what made North Carolina a swing state in the first place from a traditionally deep red state. So it's worth trying, guys [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It is.Sy Hoekstra: Take a look, Democrats.Jonathan Walton: Worth trying.Sy Hoekstra: It's worth trying [laughs]. It's not just worth trying for political victories either. It's also worth actually addressing poor people's needs [laughs], to be clear about what I'm saying.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I think I was convicted. Like, Shane Claiborne said this and others like Merton has said this, and Howard Thurman said this, and MLK said it, and Jesus said it. The center of the church should be marginalized people. That should actually be the thing. “The poor will always be with us,” is not an endorsement of poverty. That's not what that is. You know what I mean? [laughter] Some people were like, “Well, people are supposed to be poor, and I'm supposed to…”Sy Hoekstra: I know. I know. Or, the poor will always be with us, and that means that we should not try to end poverty, because Jesus said you can't end it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, right. That, no. But the reality that that is a broken, tragic theology that aligns with White American folk religion and requires no sacrifice from people who are on the upper end of a dominant hierarchy. That's what that is. Yeah. I hope that even if the political parties of the United States do not pay attention to what to what Barber is saying, that the Church will. That would be great.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Amen to that. Alright. I think we're just gonna end it there. I already did the outro and everything, the credits and all that stuff in the Live episode, so I think Jonathan and I at this point are just going to say thank you all so much for listening. We will see you in January for the next episode. Goodbye.Jonathan Walton: Thank you. Bye [laughter].[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: How what somebody else is saying is affecting other people around you, or the other person that that person has to interact with, meaning the person who youJonathan Walton: [burps].Sy Hoekstra: [laughs], remember, I can't mute you if you just burp into your microphone.Jonathan Walton: Yes, sir. My apologies. [laughter] Welcome to live everyone.Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to live Substack.Jonathan Walton: I drank a ton of water. They saw me just do that [laughter].

It's our season finale! We're answering listener questions and talking:-        Staying grounded and emotionally healthy post-election-        Some mistakes people are making in their election analysis-        Why the politics of identity will never go away in America-        How the Church can and can't fight anti-Blackness and other forms of injustice-        Where you can hear us in between seasons-        And a lot more!Mentioned in the Episode:-        Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor by Rev. Caleb Campbell-        Our newsletter from last week with a worship playlist and sermon Jonathan recommended-        The Webinar Intervarsity is doing with Campbell on Tuesday – Register here.-        The article on patriarchy by Frederick Joseph: “For Palestinian Fathers, Sons, and Brothers”-        Our free guide to processing and acting on the injustices you encounterCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Sy Hoekstra: The beauty of the church is not in how good it is. The church is beautiful in the light of Christ, not in the light of its own good work and goodness. The church is beautiful when it is people collectively trying to put their faith in the grace that governs the universe, and not put their faith in their own ability to bring the kingdom of God into this world.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. We have a great show for you today. It's our season four finale. We're answering listener questions and continuing our discussion from our Substack live conversation two weeks ago, about where to go from the Trump election as followers of Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: And because this is the finale, let me just take a quick second to tell you where we are going from here. We are gonna be doing our monthly bonus episodes for our paid subscribers, like we usually do when we are not on a season of this show. We are going to be doing them though slightly differently. You will have the opportunity to hear them at one point if you're not a paid subscriber, because we're gonna record them like we did two weeks ago on Substack Live. So if you want to see those when they are being recorded, download the Substack app. If you get on our free emailing list, you'll be notified when we start. You just need to go ahead and get that app, it's both on iOS and Android.And if you wanna make sure that you're getting our emails in your Gmail inbox, because we've heard some people tell us they're going to the promotions folder or whatever Gmail is trying to do to filter out your spam, but actually filtering out the stuff that you wanna see, you just have to either add us to your contacts, or if it's in the promotions folder, just click the “Not promotion” button that you can see when you open your email. Or you can actually just drag and drop emails that show up in your folders to your inbox, and then it'll ask you, “Hey, do you wanna always put emails from the sender in your inbox?” And you can just click, yes. So do one of those things, add us to your contact, drag and drop, click that “Not promotions” button that'll help you see those notifications from us.Jonathan Walton: If you'd like access to the recordings of those bonus episodes, plus access to our monthly subscriber Zoom chats, become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com. We would so appreciate it and you would be supporting our work that centers personal and informed discussions on faith, politics, and culture to help you seek Jesus and confront injustice. We are two friends resisting the idols of the American church in order to follow Jesus faithfully, and would love for you to join us. So become a paid subscriber at KTFPpress.com.Sy Hoekstra: And we've said this before, but we should probably say it again. If you want a discounted subscription or if money's a barrier to you joining us as a paid subscriber, just email us, info@ktfpress.com. We'll give you a free subscription or a discounted subscription, no questions asked. You will not be the first person to do it if you do. Other people have done it, we've given it to them. We won't make it weird because we want everyone to have access to everything that we're doing. But if you can afford to support us, please as Jonathan said, go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber. Let's jump into it, Jonathan.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, man.Sy Hoekstra: We, a couple weeks ago on our Substack Live, we were talking about processing through grief and like what we have been hearing from people. We've had lots of questions and lots of conversations since then. So we're sort of combining, amalgamating [laughs] lots of subscriber questions into one, or even just questions from friends and family. I just wanna know how you are continuing to process the election and what you're thinking about grief and how we move forward, or how we look back and see what exactly happened.Staying Grounded and Emotionally Healthy Post-ElectionJonathan Walton: Yeah. So I think that one of the things I just have to acknowledge is that I'm tired of talking about it, and not okay talking about it. Like just the level of energy it takes to have regulated, like emotionally regulated healthy conversations is exhausting.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so, just naming that. So last week I think I was in a better place than this week recording. And so I'm recognizing I need to be able to take steps back and set boundaries so that I can be in a healthier place. And I just encourage everybody to do that. We all need rhythms and disciplines that keep us grounded. That is not like, oh, when I'm in this season, I need spiritual discipline. No. We actually are supposed to have them all the time. But I think in moments like these and seasons like this, we actually need them just in a more pointed way. It reminds us that we do. So those are things that I'm doubling down on, like starting to listen to worship music.If you check out last week's newsletter, I actually had a worship set from a worship leader in Columbus, Ohio, who basically said, if you can't sit across someone who has a different political perspective than you, then you probably can't worship with them. So let's start off with worship. And so they made a, I don't know, a six hour playlist of songs from different traditions and said like, play it without skipping it. Without skipping a song. Don't be like, “I don't like this song, I don't like this. I don't like…” This reminds me of them. Like, just listen to the whole album because somebody who is different from you meets Jesus through the words of the song. And he said, “You would never know that I don't like some of the songs that we sing [laughter], but I sing them. And I thought that was just a really honest thing.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. You said it was six hours long?Jonathan Walton: It's a lot. I haven't made it through a third of it.Sy Hoekstra: Okay [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It's long. And the sermon is also linked in the newsletter as well. It's just a great message from Pastor Joshua.Sy Hoekstra: This is a pastor in Ohio that you're familiar with?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: How did you get connected to this?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So someone on the political discipleship team for InterVarsity, shout out to Connie Anderson, who's written…Sy Hoekstra: Oh, great.Jonathan Walton: …a lot of our stuff. Our InterVarsity stuff.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Not KTF stuff.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. She just, she said, “Hey, I really appreciated the sermon and I was able to listen to it, and I'm working my way through the songs. And if I skip a song, I'm gonna go back, because I'm not the only person on my Spotify. Shout out to all the Moana and Frozen tracks that get stuck in there.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: So all that to say, that's like the first big thing, is setting boundaries, trying to have healthier rhythms so that I can be fully present to my family and myself.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Having Difficult Conversations by Meeting People Where They AreJonathan Walton: Also, I think it's really important to remember, particularly when I'm frustrated, I have to remember to meet people where they're at the way that Jesus met me. I have not always known that Christian Nationalism was bad. I didn't always have another term for it that captures the racialized, patriarchal environmental hierarchy of it called White American folk religion. I didn't always know about police brutality and the rural urban divide. I didn't know about those things. And what I desperately needed and unfortunately had, was patient people who were willing to teach me. And so as we're having these conversations, there's a book called Disarming Leviathan, ministering to your Christian Nationalist neighbor. It's really, really good. We're doing an event that you will hear about in our newsletter as well with the author of that booked Caleb Campbell.Sy Hoekstra: And when you say we, in that case again, you mean InterVarsity?Jonathan Walton: Oh, shoot.Sy Hoekstra: It doesn't matter [laughs].Jonathan Walton: I do mean InterVarsity. There's a little bit of overlap here because the season is so fraught.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs]. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Jonathan Walton: Like [laughs], and so you're gonna hear about that in a newsletter as well. InterVarsity Press is promoting it, InterVarsity's promoting it. Pastors and teachers are promoting it because the reality is, we all need to figure out how to tackle difficult conversations.Sy Hoekstra: Yep.Jonathan Walton: And we use that verb specifically, like it's elusive. We have to go after it [laughs] to be able to…Sy Hoekstra: You have to go wrangle it.Jonathan Walton: Yes, because it's hard. It's really, really hard. We would rather run away. We would rather run away from difficult conversations. So meeting people where they're at, we do that because Jesus meets us where we are. Our compassion, our gentleness is in outpouring of the compassion and gentleness that we've meditated on and experienced for ourselves and are willing to embody with other people. So those would be my biggest things from the last week or last two weeks since we last talked about this stuff. What about you?Healthy Reactions to the Election Are Different for Different PeopleSy Hoekstra: Yeah, that's good. We actually had, speaking of people who have a, like a different rhythm or need to adjust something now to be emotionally healthy, we actually had a subscriber, I won't give any details, but write in who's overseas, who basically said, “I've got too much going on in the country that I live in. I can't deal with American stuff right now. I need to unsubscribe from you.” They're on the free list. And I was like, “Man, I understand [laughs].”Jonathan Walton: Yes, right. I would like to unsubscribe from this [laughter]. No, I'm just joking, just joking.Sy Hoekstra: I appreciate that he wrote in to explain why he was unsubscribing. That doesn't necessarily happen a lot…Jonathan Walton: Right. Right, right.Sy Hoekstra: But it's very understandable and it's really sad, but I totally get it. And I want people to take care of themselves in that way. And I think, I mean, the flip side of that is we had a ton of people in the last week or week and a half sign up for the free list because I think a lot of people are just looking for ways to process, right [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: They are looking for people who are having these conversations, which happens. We got started, this company got started during the 2020 election, putting together the anthology that we put together, and we had a lot of response at that point too, and people who are just like, “Yes, I need to hear more of this processing.” And the difference now is there are fortunately, like a lot of people doing this work from all kinds of different angles all around the country, which is a very good thing, I think. We could be tempted to think of it as competition or whatever, but the church [laughs] has to come at this from as many angles as possible. There need to be as many voices doing the work of trying to figure out how to follow Jesus and seek justice as there are people promoting Christian Nationalism, and we're… those numbers are nowhere close to parody [laughs].Jonathan Walton: No.Sy Hoekstra: Not remotely close.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely. No, they are not [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Unfortunately, that's a reality of the American church. So, anyways, I appreciate all those thoughts very much, Jonathan.Mistakes People Are Making in Election AnalysisSy Hoekstra: I think when I'm thinking about the conversations that I've had, I have a couple thoughts that come to mind. I think a lot of the things that I think about in the conversations in the last week and a half are people trying to figure out what happened, like looking back and like playing the blame game [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And the excuses that people are making, or the blame is shifting for why Trump matters now, because you can't say he lost the popular vote anymore. Obviously he won the electoral college the first time, but he lost popular vote, and then he lost the popular vote to Biden plus the electoral college. Now he's won it, and so people are not as able to, to the extent that people were still trying to paint him as an aberration from the norm.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: …that's getting harder. It's getting harder to say, “Oh, this is just a blip on the radar and we'll come back to our normal situation at some point, some undetermined point in the future. But so they're shifting blame to other people. It's like, oh, various non-White groups increased their votes for Trump. Or young people increased their votes for Trump or something.Which Party Wins Tells Us A Lot Less about America Than Who Is an Acceptable Candidate in the First PlaceSy Hoekstra: To me, a lot of that stuff, if you're trying to say that Donald Trump represents a problem with the whole country that you're trying to diagnose how it happened, all those conversations are a little bit silly, because the problem is that he's like a viable candidate who people voted for in the first place. But the people to blame for electing Donald Trump are the people who voted for Donald Trump, which is more than half of the voters in America. Not much more, but more.And the reason it's like a little bit silly to talk about what's different than the prior elections is, the prior elections were like Trump's gonna win this election, the popular vote. Trump's gonna win the popular vote by like two or three percent probably. It could be a little bit different than that, but basically Trump's gonna get slightly more than 50 percent, Kamala Harris is gonna get slightly less than 50 percent. And that's usually how it goes. That is the reality of this, how this country works. We have a winner take all system, and so typically speaking, it's a little over 50 and a little under 50. The swings between who gets elected in any given year, president, we're playing with marginal things. Democratic strategists, Republican strategists are trying to figure out how to fiddle with the margins to get what they want.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: It was only seven states in this country that actually mattered [laughs]. Like 86 percent of the states in this country were decided and then we're just playing with seven states. We're just playing with little numbers. And so all of these, like all Black people went slightly more for Trump. Young people went slightly more for Trump, whatever. It'll go back later. I don't know if you saw this, Jonathan, on Monday this week. So last week, if you're listening to this, John Stewart brought out the map of the 1984 election. Did you see this?Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. It was so interesting [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: It's like it was completely one color.Sy Hoekstra: It's red, yeah.Jonathan Walton: And you're like, “What? Whoa, this looks like a candy cane without the White” [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Right, exactly.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: If you've never seen the Reagan-Mondale electoral map, literally the entire country, except for Minnesota is red. The whole country went for Ronald Reagan. So that's like, it's one of the biggest landslides in history, and the popular vote for Ronald Reagan, I decided to look that up, was less than 59 percent.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Right?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You get the whole country. You have to get 270 electoral votes to win, he got like 520 something.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: He crushed Mondale. But eight years later, bill Clinton is in office and we're kind of back to normal. We're back to America's normal, right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: It's so small, these little things, and we just have to stay focused on, the problem here is that both of our parties in different ways, to different degrees are just infused with White supremacy and White American folk religion and patriarchy and everything else. And Donald Trump can be a viable candidate in the United States.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: That's the problem [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right, that is the problem.Sy Hoekstra: We have to stop talking about, I don't care what Gen Z did. Gen Z will change just like everybody else has changed. Election to election, things will be different. Anybody who thought that, “Oh, just a new generation of people in the United States of America growing up is gonna fundamentally change the United States of America.” How? Why did you think that [laughter]? Why? Why? Why would the children of the people, who were the children of the people, who were the children of the people who have been in the same country for years and years, generation after generation, why would that just be something fundamentally different? It's the same people, they're just a bit younger. I don't know. I never get those kinds of arguments.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Facing the Reality of America's BrokennessSy Hoekstra: What I'm saying is, I think underlying a lot of those arguments though, is a desire to have some control over something. To have something that we can say is certain that we're changing, that we can be the good people that we thought Americans fundamentally were again, or something like that. It's about control and trying to wrap your mind around something. I think instead of just facing the reality that we live in a deeply flawed country.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Which is, should be biblically speaking, unsurprising.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: But it is also difficult. It's unsurprising and it's difficult to deal with. Facing the reality of the brokenness of the world, not a fun thing to do. We've talked about this before.The People to Blame for the Election are the Mostly White and Male People Who Voted for TrumpJonathan Walton: Well, I think it would be helpful for people to remember, in all the things you're talking about, Trump did not win the popular vote last time, he won it this time. Trump won the electoral college, right? Let's actually just for a moment identify the voting population of the United States of America. So there are 336 million people in the United States per the population tracker today, right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: There are 169 million people who voted in the election in 2020. The numbers are not final for 2024.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. It's gonna be less, it'll be less than that though.Jonathan Walton: It's less. So let's say 165 million people voted in the election this time. And that's generous. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So that's less than 50 percent of the country that actually voted. Then we take into the account that 70 percent of this country of the voting population is still White. Okay friends?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Roughly, I would say. Yeah, that's true.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: People give different estimates of that, but it doesn't get much lower than like 65 [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. So let's even go with 65 percent.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Yeah. Right. [laughs].Jonathan Walton: So let's say 65 percent of that voting population is White, and then half of that population is male. And Trump did an exceptional job at mobilizing White slash men in the United States to go and vote. An exceptional job. Looking at that population and saying, “We are gonna make sure that you feel invited, welcomed and empowered.” Joe Rogan's show [laughs], these other influencers, how he advertised. If you look at who was on stage in these different venues when he was campaigning, all men. And the women, I think it's very important to notice this. I think when he gave his acceptance speech, his now chief of staff that they called the Iron Lady or something like that. The Ice Lady, Iron Lady, something like that.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: That's what they called her. And then she declined the invitation to speak. And so I think that when we are sitting here saying, “Oh man, how could people vote this way?” We are not talking about the entire population of the United States.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.Jonathan Walton: We are talking about a little less than half of the voters in the United States, and then we are talking about 50 percent of that group. We're not talking about people under 18, generation alpha. We're not talking about the vast majority of Gen Z. We're talking about the same voters we've been talking about for the last 30 years [laughs]. The voting population of White adults in the United States. That's who we're talking about. We could blame, oh, this group or that group, but I agree with what you're saying. We have to face the reality that at some point we have to talk about race and we have to talk about gender. When we talk about identity politics, we don't name White and male as an identity.Sy Hoekstra: Right. Yeah.Jonathan Walton: We don't. We call it something else. We say, oh, like the working class or all these other things. But we need to just say, if we look at how White people are voting and we look at how men are voting, then we have the answer to I think, how Trump was elected. But those two things are third rails. Or like in New York City, you don't touch the third rail, it's electric because of the subway.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: So we don't talk about that. And I think, I don't say that because I wanna blame people, I'm just naming statistics. These are just numbers. The numbers of people who are voting, the demographics they represent, this is the group. So when Sy says, who is responsible for Trump's election, it is the majority of White Americans who vote, and men in this country of all races who lean towards hey, opting into patriarchy in ways that are unhelpful.Sy Hoekstra: It's not of all races [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Well, I will say that the increases of Black men, the increases of Latino men, Trump did grow his share of the Black male vote by double digits. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, but it's still a minority of the Black male vote.Jonathan Walton: It is. I'm just saying, I do not want to discount the reality that patriarchy is attractive to all races.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: That's what I wanna name. And so when Fred Joseph, amazing author, talks about the attractiveness of patriarchy, I think that is something that all men need to say no to.Sy Hoekstra: This is an essay that we highlighted in our newsletter like a month or two ago.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I'll put the link in the show notes.Jonathan Walton: We have to say no to patriarchy.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so anyway, that's my rant in response to this [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, no. That's good, and that actually gets into it, the other thing I wanted to talk about was, which even though I think some of these blame game conversations are such like nonsense, we are still able within those nonsense conversations to say a lot of things that are just demonstrably false [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.The Politics of Identity Will Never Die in AmericaSy Hoekstra: And what you just said is one of them. Like I've seen some people talking about, “Oh, the democrats lost because they ran on identity politics,” or, “Identity politics is over.” And I'm like, “What are you talking about [laughter]?” Donald Trump is all identity politics.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: It was all about White men and how they were gonna be comfortable and empowered how Christians are gonna be in powered again.Jonathan Walton: How women are gonna be taken care of, whether they like it or not.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah right. Men are gonna be back in power. How citizens are gonna have what they deserve, and then we're gonna stop giving it to the illegal immigrants, right?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Like everything Donald Trump does is about identity. And the bigger thing to say is identity politics in America is not a current or temporary trend. Identity politics is baked into the foundation of the country, and it was not Black people who did it [laughs]. It was the founding fathers who created a system where only White men could be naturalized and only rich White men could vote, and we enshrined racial slavery, all that stuff. Identity politics has been here from day one. It's not like a liberal thing. It was a thing that we baked in on purpose, and it's a thing that came from European culture and it's still fundamental to European culture to this day.Sy Hoekstra: And I, what I think what people mean when they talk about identity politics is, it's another one of the endless string of words that we use since racial slurs became impolite. We can't say the N word anymore. It's another way of saying it's Black people talking about Black people stuff. Right? When people talk about identity politics, they're saying the wrong identity politics, because everybody is talking about identity politics all the time. They're just, like you said, not calling it identity politics. They're talking about “real America” [laughs], right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: They're talking about, we know what they mean by real America. They're talking about White men and they're just saying this is the default culture. We're all just assuming this is the default culture, everything else is identity politics. Nonsense.Jonathan Walton: Right, right.Sy Hoekstra: So that's one of the nonsense things that shows up in the conversation as a result of a nonsense thing that we say that we think all the time on some subconscious level that we're not always talking about identity politics, even though we absolutely are. And it's because it's been forced upon us. It's not because somebody's trying to create divisions.Jonathan Walton: Right.The Democrats Are the Party the Non-White Working Class Voted ForSy Hoekstra: A similar thing is, I heard people talking about the Democrats are not the party of the working class anymore. The working class is not voting for the Democrats because, and then, obviously the White working class is voting for Trump, and then start to talk about the gains that Trump made among the non-White working class. Again, the majority of everybody in the non-White working class is not voting for Donald Trump. And assuming that voters have some idea of what's good for them and who better represents them, maybe not who best represents them, but who better represents them, the Democrats are still the party of the non-White work—we're talking about the White working class again, you know what I mean? We're trying to make it about economics and it's actually about race. That's a thing that we're doing all the time, constantly [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Well [laughs], the reality is that economics is about race.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: It's like, if we could just like get some daylight between them, then maybe we could make a separation. And so then it just becomes about keeping that separation in place, because if we bring them back together, the system falls apart. It literally crumbles if you call it out. And something that I'll just name, because I think in all these conversations, even as me and Sy are saying, oh, this Democrat about that Democrat, like this is the Republican or that race, when we call out differences, when we name things, our goal is not to dehumanize anybody, dismiss people's needs or grievances, or minimize the reality and perspectives that people have.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely.Jonathan Walton: The goal and hope is that we would actually grasp reality, name the idol and follow Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: Right. Yeah, exactly.Jonathan Walton: That is our goal and our hope and our aim, because if we can't say it as is, we will never be able to address and communicate with the most marginalized people. And we'll never be able to communicate a vision that draws people in power towards something even more loving and beautiful, unless we name the thing as it is. And so hopefully that is breaking through to folks who might come across this conversation.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, I agree. I can get very passionate about these facts and stats and whatever. And I'm not trying to say that anyone who doesn't…Jonathan Walton: No [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: …agree with me is somehow a bad person. I'm just, this is, it's important, like you said. It's an important goal that I'm trying to move us toward.Jonathan, we got a great question from a listener that I wanted to talk about. You cool moving on, or do you have more thoughts?Jonathan Walton: No, no. Let's do it.What Can the Church Do about Continuing Anti-Blackness?Sy Hoekstra: Alright. So what can the church, practically speaking, do about ongoing anti-Blackness in the country? And not just correct disinformation or post on social media, what can the church practically speaking do? That was the question. Jonathan, solve anti-Blackness. Go.Support Black Spaces, No Strings AttachedJonathan Walton: There's a reason that enrollment at HBCUs is surging right now.Sy Hoekstra: Ah, okay.Jonathan Walton: And that is because when the world is unsafe or feels unsafe, or the reality that, “Oh, trying to get to the master's table and eat is actually not that great,” we're gonna recede back into our communities. And so I think one thing that the church can do is support Black spaces. So financially support Black spaces, empower Black spaces. I did not say create Black spaces moderated by you, that you will then curate for, andSy Hoekstra: Control.Jonathan Walton: Yes, control would be the right word, for an experience that other people can observe. Like, “Oh, this is what Black people really think.” Like no, just support Black spaces. Black, sacred, safe spaces that help and care for us in this moment. The number of Black women that are being harassed online, like showing up to their jobs, walking down the streets in different cities, is radically disturbing to me.And if we wanna get into the intersectionality of it, like when we talk about like Black, queer people, the numbers that the Trevor Project is recording, it's like the Trevor Project is a alphabet community support organization, particularly to prevent suicide. And so their phone calls are up in the last two weeks. So I think we as a church, as followers of Jesus need to create and then sustain spaces for Black folks to hang out in and feel a part of that we control. Kathy Khang, the author of Raise Your Voice said in a workshop that I was in one time, “Spaces that marginalized communities are in, we feel like renters, we don't feel like owners.” So we can't move the furniture. We're not really responsible for anything, but we're just, we could exist there and do what we need to do.Sy Hoekstra: But it's not a home.Jonathan Walton: It's not a home. And so I would want to encourage churches, small groups, bible studies, community groups, parachurch organizations to create spaces for Black folks by Black folks to be able to thrive in and feel a sense of community in. The other thing that I would say is that the church could educate itself around the complexities of Blackness. And so there's the Black, racially assigned Black Americans in the United States that are the descendants of enslaved people. Then there's Caribbean folks that are the descendants of enslaved Africans and the colonizers there. And then there's Central and South American and Mexican. There's a lot of beauty and complexity in Blackness.And so obviously, Ta-Nehisi Coates's book The Message, talks about that in ways that are exceptionally helpful and complex. So that would be a great book to dive into. And again, create educational, engaging spaces around. This education, quote- unquote, educating yourself, not asking Black folks to spend their time educating you. Doing that work, creating those spaces, supporting those spaces financially, time, resources, et cetera, and creating spaces for Black folks to feel and be safe, I think would be just exceptionally helpful in this season. Yes, share on social media. Yes, send messages to your friends. Yes, do all those things on your own time and on your own dime. But I think these are two things that could be helpful because it's not gonna go away the next four years. It's probably gonna be more intense. And so I think creating and sustaining of those places would be helpful.Sy Hoekstra: At least sustaining, you don't have to create.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, that's true. There are some that are already there. That's true. Find a place, donate, support, host. Hey, provide the space. Buy food, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And the reason I say that is you could end up with people who just go to Black people and are like, “Hey, we'll give you money and you get to do a bunch of work to create a space or,” you know what I mean? And there's also the instinct to say, if we're gonna support something, we have to create it.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: We don't. We can support things that other people are already doing. There might be people in your congregation who are already doing that as their job. Just give them money. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: The more you're not in charge, the fewer strings are attached. Jonathan already talked about that. Even if those strings are implicit or not even there, but they're just perceived to be there, and that could be a problem too. So it's good to just give money to stuff that already exists or give support. Give volunteer work, whatever. Good, I appreciate that. Thank you for having practical answers.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. No worries. I'm glad you sent it to me earlier so I could think about it.Educating Ourselves on Fighting Racism Works (Sometimes)Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Yeah [laughs]. Continuing to educate ourselves is a good thing too. And I think I've actually seen some of the difference in that. I know this is, there is so far to go and there's so much to do in terms of educating ourselves, but I can personally tell you from having watched a lot of Christians go through the Trayvon Martin case and Ferguson and everything. And I'm saying Christians who want to be supportive of Black people, who want to be helpful, who want to be anti-racist, all that stuff. I saw a lot of people who in 2012, ‘13, ‘14 were just like babies. Just starting out, didn't know what to say. Didn't know whether they could go protest, didn't know why All Lives Matter wasn't appropriate. Like, “Don't all lives matter though?” All that kind of stuff.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Even when you're trying to be helpful, you know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Right, right, right.Sy Hoekstra: And then 2020 comes around and I saw a bunch of those exact same people being like, “I'm gonna go march! Black Lives Matter, let's go.” You know what I mean? So people really can learn and they really can change. And the problem is that you just have to keep doing it to every new generation of people that comes up, and it takes years to do. It's not something that you can do in a couple of sermons or one course that you take or whatever. And again, I know they're so far to go, I'm not trying to say… I understand that you can work for years. A White person can work for years, and the differences can be trivial and frustrating and like enraging. But it's also true that people can learn [laughs]. And talking about meeting people where they are, that's kind of what I'm saying to White people as we're trying to educate ourselves and others.Educating Each Other about Race Is a Long, Continuous ProcessJonathan Walton: Yeah, and to build off of something that you said before too, it's like Donald Trump was elected eight years ago, and some people were not alive eight years ago. And some people were 10 years old, eight years ago. So they didn't even…Sy Hoekstra: And now they're voting.Jonathan Walton: And now they're voting. So like Trayvon Martin was killed 12 years ago. They may not have the same knowledge as you, the same awareness as you. So yes, the education and the engagement is ongoing because there's always people that are coming up that had no idea. And I think just going back to what we said in the first part, like you were just saying again, meeting people where they're at because maybe they were too young and they just don't know. Like I was having a conversation this past week and someone said, “Yeah, my mom and dad have been sick. I've made 10 trips to another city the last two years to try and take care of them.” Maybe their world is just small because they've been engaged in loving the people closest to them through illness.We must meet people as best as we possibly can where they're at. And I confess, I have not always done that. And so being able to not be prideful and not be dismissive, and not look down on someone from being ignorant to simply not knowing. And even loving someone who's exceptionally misinformed. As we're doing this recording, one of my friends is meeting with a Christian nationalist right now. Like they're going there. They said, “Alright, can you pray for me, I'm going to have this conversation.” Because it is one conversation at a time that these things change.Sy Hoekstra: I appreciate that. You just reminded me of another story I had, and I won't give details about the individual, but there's someone in my life who is a White person who's from the south, who lives in New York City, who's just one of those people that makes Black people uncomfortable, Jonathan. Just like the moment you meet him, you're like, “something… hmm, I don't know.” And I've heard other Black people talk about him this way. I've heard stuff that's made me uncomfortable. And he was just an easy person to kind of like shun or avoid.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, for sure.Sy Hoekstra: Until I ran into another extremely kind Black person who told me… we ended up not because of me, because of someone else, in a conversation about this guy, and how he sort of makes people uncomfortable. And he was like, yeah, but he just said in not so many words, I kind of tolerate him because he lost his entire family in Hurricane Katrina, and he lives in New York City and basically has nobody and just works this kind of dead-end job and is not a very happy person. Actually, he is kind of a happy person. He's sort of trying to make the best of it, and he doesn't know what he is doing. You know what I mean? It's just like, you have one of those moments with someone where you're like, “Boy, that changes my view of this person.”Jonathan Walton: Right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: I still don't think any of the things that you're saying to make people uncomfortable are okay, and I'll try and interfere in whatever limited way I can or whatever. But you hear something like that, your heart changes a little bit. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Your attitude changes and like, you just, we gotta get to know each other better. We gotta listen better.We Need Endurance and Truly Practical WisdomSy Hoekstra: I think this question about what can the church do about anti-Blackness, for people who are like kind of our age or older, or people who have been through the 2010s and everything that happened up till now. It's just, it's a question of resilience. And whenever you're engaged in anti-Blackness work or any sort of activist work, you're gonna have these questions of resilience of like, what can we do, because this problem is just still going. And then there's another question of the practicality of it when you're asking that question in the church. I'm gonna define the question a little bit or reframe the question a little bit and then give answers.When you ask the question of something like, what can we practically do about a problem in a Christian context, the question is a little bit strange sometimes, and I think you just gave some good practical answers, but we have both noticed, we talked about this recently. In the Christian world, the word “Practical” often means something different than it does to the rest of the world [laughs].Jonathan Walton: That's true. That's true. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: The phrase practical application just seems to have a different meaning to pastors than it does to everybody else [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And what it tends to mean to professional Christians is, when you're talking about practical application, you're talking about a new way of thinking or a new goal for how you should feel about something.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Or like a new “heart posture” or something like that.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: It's a new attitude, but it's not practical. You actually said recently, you came out of a sermon going, “Okay, I kind of know how to think, I don't know what to do with my body. Now, after listening to this sermon.” You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right, right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: I know what to do with my heart and my head. I don't know what to do with my hands and my feet. And we're supposed to be the hands and feet of Jesus, not the heart and the brain.Jonathan Walton: Right [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: And I think, actually, I don't wanna sound like a conspiracy theorist here, but I think that problem, it at least promotes racism [laughter]. It promotes institutions remaining as they are. You know what I mean? It promotes, like when we talk about practicality and we're just talking about how we kind of think about things, like the world of ideas and emotions and not what we do politically or whatever, that is a subtle way to reinforce status quo institutions.Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely, it is.Sy Hoekstra: And it's not anything to do with the person who asked the question. I'm just acknowledging the reality of how that question lands to Christian ears.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes. Especially institutionalized Christians. Yes, absolutely.The Church Isn't Necessarily the Best Place to Go to Fight RacismSy Hoekstra: And another thing is, I will say, we're talking about the church, the whole wide capital C church. The Black church, is gonna keep doing what it's always done. Black church is gonna do anti-racist work. Obviously, there are problems and questions and whatever that Black people have in their conversations among themselves within the Black church about how to do that best, or what things may be getting in the way of that or whatever. But if you're talking about big picture here, Black church is always fighting racism. I think we're kind of asking questions about the rest of the church. The White church in particular, and then some other churches as well. If we're just talking about the American church in general and what it can do to fight anti-Blackness, if you look at the history of just big picture American church, there are Christians in the United States on both sides of this past election.There are Christians in the United States in history on both sides of the Civil War. There are Christians in the United States on both sides of segregation versus civil rights. There are Christians in the abolition movement, there are obviously Christians in the pro-slavery movement. Christians set up the system of racism and slavery. European Christians did.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: The American church, if you just look at history, is a weird place, is a weird institution to look to, to end anti-Blackness. We have been consistently ambivalent about it for centuries. Do you know what I mean? I understand…Jonathan Walton: No, listen. It's true, and that's sad.Sy Hoekstra: Yes, yes.Jonathan Walton: That reality is depressing, right.Good Things Come from God, Not the ChurchSy Hoekstra: Horribly depressing. And so I understand, one, you just don't want that to be real. So you say, “Hey, what can we do?” Or, you want, and when I say you, again, I don't mean the question asker because I haven't had a conversation or back-and-forth. I'm just saying this is what people could be asking when they ask this question. It could also be the instinct of a lot of White evangelicals, which I can tell you this question asker is not, have the instinct when we say, what can the church do, of kind of thinking that if there's anything good is going to happen in the world, it has to come from the church, and that is so wrong. It is not biblically accurate. You can't look at scripture and go, “Yeah, everything good has to come from the church.” Goodness comes from God. God is the source of goodness, and God sends the rain on the righteous and the unrighteous, and we are very much among the unrighteous. God is the source of goodness, and so we need to acknowledge that we can find goodness outside of the church.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, that's a point worth repeating.Sy Hoekstra: Right [laughs]. We can find goodness outside of the church. I will repeat it [laughter]. We can in our congregations have fights that can go on for years and years about how we can just try and move anyone toward anti-Blackness work, and you can work for forever and you can see no fruit. And you could have spent all that time taking the few Christians, because there's always a handful, even in a [laughs], in any church, there's a few people who are sympathetic to whatever you're trying to do.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You can just take them and you are the church, you and your Christians, and go do work with somebody else. You can go to your local mutual aid organization. You can go to your local Black Lives Matter chapter. You can go to whoever. You can go find the people who are doing the work and work with them, and that's fine, because it's still good and it therefore still comes from God. And we don't have to subtly participate or subconsciously participate in the idea that everything good has to come from the church, which is ultimately a colonial and colonizing idea. That is what a church that is going into a country trying to colonize it wants you to think, “Everything good comes from us, so you gotta come here [laughs] for the good stuff. And all those people out there, those are the bad people.”Jonathan Walton: [inhales deeply and sighs] Right. No, I mean, yeah, everything you're saying is true. That was my big sigh there [laughter].All Justice Work Requires Real, Local CommunitySy Hoekstra: So I read a thing this week from Camille Hernandez who wrote a really great book called The Hero and the W***e, which is a look through a womanist theological lens at what we can learn from what the Bible says about basically sexual violence. Fascinating book. Anyways, she was talking about her reading of Mariame Kaba, who I've cited before in this show, who is a famous abolitionist organizer, who basically said a lot of people who have a lot of influence, activists who have a lot of influence, can be sort of confused and unmoored at times like this because they have a lot of influence. They have a lot of people that they can call to go do a march or whatever. But what they don't have is a local community. So like what I was just talking about, taking the few people in your church, if you have a few people in your church and going and doing the work somewhere else, that's your small community.You need people who are on the same page as you, who you love, and they love you and you're there to support each other, and they will ground you in times like this, doing that work together. We'll ground you in times like this and it will give you a way to move forward. It will give you a sense of purpose, it will give you accountability. That's also a fraught word if you grew up in the church [laughter]. But it will give you the good kind of accountability to be able to do the work of anti-Blackness or fight any other kind of injustice, frankly. So that's one important thing.KTF's PACE Guide Will Help You Engage Practically with InjusticeSy Hoekstra: I also think if you want a good framework for how to do things practically when you are fighting anti-Blackness or other forms of injustice, go get our PACE guide [laughs]. We have a guide that we produced a few months ago.If you have signed up recently on our newsletter, or if you want to sign up for our free mailing list, you get it in the welcome email. If you were on our list before a few months ago, you have it in one of your old emails. It's basically a guide for when you encounter issues of injustice in the news or in your everyday life or wherever, how to process it and do something about it in a way that is, actually takes into account your limitations and your strengths, and helps you think through those things and help you kind of grow as you run through this cycle of steps and questions and prayers that we have for you to go through as you are thinking through these things. So PACE is the acronym. You can find out what it stands for and how to go through it if you go get that guide, sign up for our free emailing list if you don't have it. And that will give you a good sense of how to think through you personally in your context, how you can fight anti-Blackness.Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: But yeah, on a bigger scale, the reason I'm talking about small things like community and how you personally can work, is I'm not thinking on as grand a scale as what can the church do to end anti-Blackness. Because we're not God, we are not saviors. We are not here to fix everything. God is here to do all those things. So I'm more asking, how do I join in with stuff that's already happening? And again, that's not like a correction to the question asker. It's just where I'm at [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Well no, it's a reorientation.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: I think something that, and I don't know if this is a generational thing, and I think that me being 38 years old, I have been shaped in a certain way to believe and want institutions to answer big questions as opposed to gathering a group of people and having a community instead of an institution. There's still work that God is doing in me around that, in that communities are vehicles for transformation in the kingdom and institutions it seems are vehicles for power in the world. That's something I'm wrestling with myself because I do think that one of the answers to anti-Blackness is beloved community, not as a concept, but like a practical thing. Like we are checking in on each other, we are going out to dinner, we are sharing recipes.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.Jonathan Walton: We are sending memes and funny videos like that. That is actually some aid that can lift our spirits each day amidst an empire that desires to destroy us.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I think a lot of my journey trying to figure out how to do more justice work and follow Jesus, has been asking those smaller questions about what can I do in my own community? Just because I have, you and I, we have limited influence, and we have a church institution that has supported anti-Blackness in a lot of ways and those are just realities. And they're really sad, and the idea that a lot of the church is kind of useless and sort of opposed to the things of God, a lot of people don't wanna accept that. But I think if you don't accept that, you're gonna be running into these frustrations a lot. Like why is the church not doing this? And then trying to find probably solace in just really small things. Like okay, is my church's theology better than yours, or is my… You know, like in things that are not making a difference in the world [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. Right.The Church Has to Trust in Grace, Not Save the WorldSy Hoekstra: So, I don't know, man. Look, the beauty of the church is not in how good it is. The church is beautiful in the light of Christ, not in the light of its own good work in goodness. The church is beautiful because… the church is beautiful when, not because, when [laughs] it is people collectively trying to put their faith in the grace that governs the universe, and not put their faith in their own ability to bring the kingdom of God into this world. And that's such a hard thing to do. We so wanna make an institution that is good, that is fundamentally good and that we're a part of it [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Well, it's a hard thing to do and accept.Sy Hoekstra: Yes.Jonathan Walton: Because in how we have been cultured downstream of colonization, if there is no effort, then I don't get a gold star, then I'm not included. Like, what do you mean? What do you mean that I'm supposed to play a small part? No, no. I'm supposed to be a star.Sy Hoekstra: I'm supposed to change the world.Jonathan Walton: I'm supposed to change the world, and I'm supposed to build something. I'm supposed to make something. Like we're an entrepreneurial event, we're supposed to do that. And Jesus hung out for 30 years, and then went and got 12 seemingly disqualified people [laughs] to go and do this thing, and then drafted Paul who was woefully unhelpful, the majority of Jesus' journey to then go and take his stuff to the rest of the world. Come on man. This is [laughs]… it's really hard to say yes to that.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: But when you experience it like you were saying, to live in the grace that governs the universe changes your life.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. People who are free of the need to prove themselves by defeating evil, right [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: Lord have mercy [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: That—look, to me that is a beautiful thing. That is one of the things that animates me, that motivates me. That makes me want to get out there and do more. Which is, I don't know, it's counterintuitive. It's counterintuitive to me, but it also works on me. So [laughs] I'm gonna keep focusing on it.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Season Wrap-Up Thoughts, Outro, and OuttakeSy Hoekstra: Do you have more thought—I think that's a good place to end it, Jonathan. I don't know if you have more thoughts.Jonathan Walton: No, I don't have more thoughts.Sy Hoekstra: Okay, great.Jonathan Walton: I appreciate that you as a White person, or racially assigned White person who's aware of their heritage and trying to engage as best you possibly can across this difference, have so many thoughts. I think that is helpful actually.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, good. Thanks. I appreciate that [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I say that because there's a pastor that I follow, Ben Cremer, he's in Idaho, and experiences that I've had with different leaders, it is exceptionally empowering and feels like a burden is lifted off of my shoulders when people who don't have to carry the burden of Blackness are trying to be thoughtful around how to stop anti-Blackness.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, I mean, ditto ableism man.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: If this is your first episode, I'm blind and Jonathan does the same thing to me on those grounds. And I think that's a lot of why our thoughts in relationship works. I'm not good at taking compliments, so I'm just throwing it back on you [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. No worries. It's all good. If you haven't seen it, somebody should google “Christian Affirmation Rap Battle” where they just try to compliment battle each other. It is amazing. [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: I'm absolutely gonna do that because that sounds like brilliant and pointed satire.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Alright. Thank you all so much for listening. This has been an incredible season, man. I've had a lot of fun. Fun is a relative word [laughter] when we're talking about the things that we're doing. I've had, I don't know, a very motivating and helpful and stimulating time talking to a lot of the people that we talked to four years ago when we started this, who wrote for us.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: If you haven't listened to those interviews, go back in the season, they're really, really helpful. I feel like they're probably even more helpful in light of how the election turned out. And I don't know, I just appreciate this. I feel like it's been fun. We didn't do it this time, but when we're doing Which Tab Is Still Open and adding, talking about some of our newsletter highlights, I've really appreciated that. I feel like it makes the episode very meaty when we have an interview and some other conversation in there too, and I've just liked what we've put out this season. So thank you, Jonathan for participating in that. Thank you everybody so much for listening.Jonathan Walton: Yep. Yep. And I'm deeply appreciative. I think a brief Which Tab is Still Open that I thought was gonna close was our anthology.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, alright.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] I will say we started this four years ago with the anthology and as we're ending this season, the anthology is probably one of the most relevant things.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The leaders that wrote in it, the contributors to it, that work and those essays, I hate and love that they are still relevant.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, right. Same.Jonathan Walton: …and helpful. If you don't have a copy, you should go get one.Sy Hoekstra: Keepingthefaithbook.com, that's where you can find it.Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: Thank you all so much for listening. Remember, get the Substack app to listen to our monthly recordings of the, the live recordings of our bonus episodes. And if you want to get the recordings of those bonus episodes after the fact, or join our monthly subscriber Zoom calls, become a paid subscriber @ktfpress.com. Or get a discounted or free subscription by just writing into us if money is an obstacle. Make sure you add us to your contacts or drag and drop our emails to your inbox if they're in your promotions folder, just so that you can get everything from us that you need. That's how you're gonna get notified if you don't have the app. That's how you'll get notified when our Substack Lives start.Our theme song is Citizens by Jon Guerra. Our podcast Art is by Robin Burgess. Transcripts by Joyce Ambale, and our editing for a lot of this season was done by Multitude Productions. We are so incredibly grateful for them, they have been friendly and fantastic. Thank you, Brandon, our editor.Jonathan Walton: Appreciate you.Sy Hoekstra: I produced this show along with our incredible paid subscribers. Thank you so much. If you are one of those paid subscribers, we will see you next month. Otherwise, we will see you for season five.Jonathan Walton: See y'all.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: A multi disc Encyclopedia Britannica.Jonathan Walton: Basically.Sy Hoekstra: Do you remember those? Did you have that when you were a kid?Jonathan Walton: I, we definitely bought, my mama definitely bought them. You are absolutely right.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: She did. That man showed up with that suitcase and he left empty handed. That was his goal, he made it.Sy Hoekstra: Oh no [laughs]. Oh no.Jonathan Walton: And you best believe we read all them books.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

“There is a racial divide in America that does not serve us well,” concludes Dr. D'Agostino. “Prejudice, racism, and tribalism are characteristics of human society. This book is meant to be a primer for White people who seem unusually susceptible to political exploitation at this time in history. My hope is that if leaders have a better understanding of the long, historical view of human society, they'll be inclined to buy fewer guns, ban few books, and have a better understanding of what it means to be a White American.”Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/arroe-collins-unplugged-totally-uncut--994165/support.

Phillip Scott reports on Democrats claiming President Trump will give white Americans reparations in response to a video that was posted to his campaign website. Black voters share their opinions on how Democrats neglected them for years. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/africandiasporanews/support

Youngmi Mayer says she hates doing research but, in our conversation and in her new memoir I'm Laughing Because I'm Crying, she does a lot of digging into the events of her life and what they all meant. Youngmi grew up in Saipan and Korea, the daughter of a Korean mother and a White American father, and had to deal with discrimination, harassment, and abuse. Later on, she moved to America with $700 in her pocket and no real plan in order to escape an abusive relationship and had to find a path that included a place of prominence in the restaurant scene, a life of comedy, and a severe depression disorder.Thank you to all our listeners who support the show as monthly members of Maximum Fun.Check out our I'm Glad You're Here and Depresh Mode merchandise at the brand new merch website MaxFunStore.com!Hey, remember, you're part of Depresh Mode and we want to hear what you want to hear about. What guests and issues would you like to have covered in a future episode? Write us at depreshmode@maximumfun.org.Help is available right away.The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 988 or 1-800-273-8255, 1-800-273-TALKCrisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741.International suicide hotline numbers available here: https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines  

Robert Downey Jr. navigates the complexities of Hollywood's shifting perceptions of figures like Elon Musk and Donald Trump, while distancing himself from comparisons to Musk and addressing the challenges faced by older white male actors in the current political climate. 00:00 Robert Downey Jr. distances himself from comparisons between his Iron Man character and Elon Musk, while also identifying as a "recovering white American male," sparking controversy over his comments. 01:14 Another wave of Trump derangement syndrome is anticipated, especially targeting celebrities supporting Trump, with Elon Musk's involvement stirring controversy in Hollywood. 02:35 Robert Downey Jr. critiques Elon Musk's behavior and political stance, despite recognizing his contributions, while reflecting on their past interaction. 04:42 RDJ's portrayal of Tony Stark reflects Hollywood's shifting views on figures like Elon Musk and Trump, who were once admired but later criticized for their conservative stances. 06:30 Elon Musk's potential Twitter acquisition could reshape political dynamics and support Trump's reelection. 08:00 Hollywood figures like Michael Keaton criticize Elon Musk and Trump, suggesting they are out of touch and lack genuine respect for their supporters. 09:00 Robert Downey Jr. navigates his comments on Elon Musk carefully to preserve his Hollywood reputation amid scrutiny of older white male actors' views. 11:06 Chaos is anticipated after November 5th, with concerns about a potential Black List and the importance of saying the right things. Robert Downey Jr. controversially labeled himself a "recovering white male," sparking debate over Hollywood's political divide and potential career repercussions for actors expressing conservative views. Concerns arise that Musk's ownership of Twitter could be used to further Donald Trump's reelection, potentially aligning him with the far right and risking backlash from Hollywood. Hollywood voices are reportedly targeting Musk to influence his public statements, aiming to prevent potential conservative messaging on his influential platform. Downey Jr.'s comments reveal a desire for Musk to "control his behavior," suggesting a clash between personal values and the perceived impact on careers in the entertainment industry. The controversy highlights the intensifying political climate in Hollywood, with actors like Michael Keaton openly opposing Trump and Musk, while others may silently support them. Musk's perceived conservative stance and potential influence on social media during elections has created tension within the entertainment industry, potentially affecting business relationships and collaborations.

Today, Jonathan and Sy speak with author and housing advocate Kevin Nye about the Church and homelessness. We get into:-        The ineffective housing policies Christians often promote-        The bad theology behind those policies-        A run-in Kevin had with institutional resistance to his view that governments shouldn't criminalize homelessness-        How churches can get things right in ministries to unhoused people-        Plus, hear our thoughts on the interview,-        A discussion of how we are resisting the negative ways the election is trying to shape us mentally and spiritually-        And our thoughts on all the discourse around Ta-Nehisi Coates' controversial new bookMentioned in the episode:-        Kevin's article on Christians mistakenly rejecting housing-first policies-        Josiah Haken's book, Neighbors with No Doors-        Kevin's article on Christianity Today's coverage of homelessness-        His article in RNS about a Supreme Court case on unhoused people's constitutional rights-        His book, Grace Can Lead Us Home: A Christian Call to End Homelessness-        His Substack, Who Is My Neighbor?-        Ta-Nehisi Coates' new book, The Message-        Our newsletter with links to a couple of Coates' interviewsCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscript[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Kevin Nye: If you're an average middle class American Christian and you want to become wealthy, have a private jet, a mansion, here's your spiritual steps. Get closer to Jesus, you'll be rewarded with physical wealth. Well, if that's true, the opposite of that would be true, which is that if you are in deep dire poverty, it must mean that you're that much farther from Jesus.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Intro and HousekeepingJonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: And I am Sy Hoekstra, today is gonna be a great one for you. We have a conversation that we're gonna have before we get into our interview, kind of about the election. A little bit of a catch up, since this is actually going to be our last show before the presidential election, which now that I say it into a microphone, is a little bit scary [laughter]. We're gonna be having a conversation today with author, theologian and housing activist Kevin Nye. I've been looking forward to this one for a long time. Basically, the church is extremely involved in housing policy in America, and we are often going about it the wrong way, and that's often because of a lot of bad theology and some falsehoods that we believe about unhoused people, and so Kevin will help us get deep into that.He's a great resource and a great person to talk about it with, as well as some of the more systemic issues of why we have such an entrenched way of thinking about unhoused people. You'll be able to hear Jonathan and my thoughts about the interview afterwards, and we will get into our segment Which Tab Is Still Open, where we go a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. This week we're talking all about Ta-Nehisi Coates and his new book, The Message and some of the discussions that have been happening around it. Also, one quick note. My voice might sound a little groggy, because about 12 hours ago, I was at game one of the American League Championship Series [laughter] and I screamed my face off.Is that a wise thing for a podcaster to do before recording? Maybe not, but I trust that you all will forgive me [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, and for the uninitiated, we're talking about baseball [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yes, that's a good point. American League Championship Series, that's a baseball series [laughter].Jonathan Walton: But before we get into all that, please friends, remember to go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber to support this show and everything we do here at KTF Press. We've been creating media that centers personal and informed discussions on faith, politics and culture, and that helps you seek Jesus and confront injustice. You've been listening for a while or the first time, you need to know we're resisting the idols of the American church by elevating marginalized voices and taking the entirety of Jesus' gospel more seriously than those who narrow it to sin and salvation. The two of us have [laughs] a lot of experience doing this, have been practicing this in community for a while, and as Maya Angelou would say, we're always practicing Christianity.So if you wanna do that, you could do that with us. We'd love for you to become a paid subscriber. You get all the bonus episodes of this show, access to our monthly subscriber Zoom chats, and you can comment on posts and more. So again, go to KTFPress.com to join us and become a paid subscriber.Sy Hoekstra: A couple of quick announcements before we get into everything. In two weeks there will not be an episode. That's just a couple days after the election. We're gonna let things settle a little bit.Jonathan Walton: Hopefully so.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, hopefully settle a little bit before [laughter] we have our sort of clean, edited podcast discussion about the election. However, we are going to do something a little bit different the day after the election. So that'll be Wednesday, November 6th at 1 pm. We are going to be having a Substack live conversation. So that means basically, if you have the Substack app, you will be able to watch us just have a live conversation about the election, what happened the night before, what we're thinking, how we can move forward faithfully now that the voting is done, and all of the potential chaos that comes after that. If you don't have the app, you can download it on the App Store or the Google Play Store. Anybody who's on our email list will get an email notification or a push notification from the app when we start.So if you're not on our email list, go to KTFPress.com and sign up. Even just the free email list, you'll get that notification. The email will have a link to download the app if you don't have it. So Substack live Wednesday, November 6th, at 1 pm to talk about the election. A little bit more raw, unfiltered, that sort of thing [laughter]. And then we'll have a finale episode, we'll announce the date later once we have that set. You'll be able to comment in the chat of the Substack live, so you can put your comments and your questions there. So come prepared to dialog a little bit. We're excited to try this new feature that Substack has rolled out. Also our next Zoom chat for subscribers will be this upcoming Tuesday, October 29th at 1 pm.So if you want to join in on that, please become a paid subscriber. If you already are a paid subscriber, then the link to register for that is in your email already. Go back to your emails from us and check for it, submit your questions. We have had some really great conversations at the four or five of these that we've done so far, and we look forward to another one this Tuesday.How Has the Election Been Shaping Us? And How Are We Resisting?Sy Hoekstra: Alright Jonathan, before the interview, we're gonna start off with an election question that will kind of let us give some of our final thoughts going into actual voting day. This is a question that you came up with, and I like it a lot, actually. Jonathan, how has this election been trying to shape you and how have you been resisting it?Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I think just hanging out in this space of formation, like we're impacted by things around us, and it's literally making us into new people or different kinds of people. I have an injury in my hip, and it's like, I ran marathons and did lots of sports and work, and so my hip is shaped differently because of the pressure that I put on it.Our Political Culture Tries to Instill Fear, but Jesus Doesn'tJonathan Walton: And so I think that culture is trying to shape me into an anxious, fearful person, because violent crime can be down in the United States, but my fears about my daughter getting older and going to the train, I'm terrified.Sy Hoekstra: Really?Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. It's terrible. It's terrible.Sy Hoekstra: Interesting.Jonathan Walton: People are like, “Oh yeah, my kid walked to the train,” I'm like, clutch my pearls.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Oh, you're one of those New York City parents.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And some of its familiarity, I never did that. That just wasn't my reality. I think it's more that than all of the fears that people have. It's just unfamiliar to me. And so I think that the Democrats would love for me to fear the apocalypse, and the Republicans would love for me to fear the apocalypse [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: Different apocalypses.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, different apocalyptic visions for the state of this country and the world. And that is a very effective fundraising tactic. It's a very effective way to get people out to vote, because having people be motivated by fear rather than love is better for the prince of the power of the air. It's better for the wills within us that are not submitted to God and trusting him for our well being and the well being of those around us, and leaning into that. And so I think that I want to reject the gospel of self reliance. I want to reject the gospel that I have to control everything and hold it all close and accumulate more and protect that which I accumulate, like all that I got. I just have to say no to that, because I don't wanna be afraid all the time and then make all the people around me more afraid. I don't think Jesus made people afraid.He made demons afraid, but off the top of my head, I cannot… like Judas wasn't even afraid of Jesus. The fear and reverence of the Lord and all of those kinds of things where the angels and the Father say, “Don't be afraid,” Jesus speaking to people did not instill fear in them. I don't think I need to be motivated or driven or attracted or tempted towards fear about anything.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, there are people who seemed kind of afraid of him, but they were all powerful and largely oppressive people.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] That's true.Sy Hoekstra: Herod seemed pretty afraid of Jesus [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Herod was terrified. Yeah, that's true. I don't think that Jesus' goal in conversation dialog was for someone to be afraid.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, that's correct.Jonathan Walton: And then for them to be compelled to follow him because they were scared. Like that… it is literally the opposite of a fire and brimstone call to faith. It's not congruent with the Christ of scripture.Resisting Cynicism by Choosing Where to Place Our HopeJonathan Walton: So what about you? How do you think our current political [laughs] realities, would love for you to be in the world?Sy Hoekstra: It feels like they would love for me to be a cynic. I don't know, someone who's just a real downer. Because I would say, if you'd asked this eight years ago, I would have said they would want me to be depressed. Because at that time, Trump just felt so dark and foreboding in a way that was deeply sad to me. Not exactly scary, but just really, really depressing. I think now I'm actually thinking more about the Democrats when I say that, because as we are recording, the Biden administration has said some very tentative things about a maybe possible weapons embargo if some undefined humanitarian crisis in Gaza is not vetted in the next month. So we'll see how that works out over the next week and a half until this publishes.But basically, up until now, it's kind of been you've got to toe the party line. You got to be effectively totally pro Israel to be in line with the Biden administration and also with the Harris campaign. That could lose them Michigan maybe or whatever, but ultimately coming out for a ceasefire or something else they must have done the calculus is gonna lose them more.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: The reason that that makes me cynical is just so much in politics, it's just about that. It's just about, are you gonna get elected or not? I think Jonathan, and I've been convinced for a long time, it is pretty impossible to be a politician and follow Jesus, because if you follow Jesus you're not gonna be a politician anymore [laughter]. Because the whole point is you got to get reelected, and you got to do whatever it takes to do that. You've got to change your mind on issues, you've got to spend money, you've got to be a hypocrite. Doesn't matter, you've just got to get reelected. There are probably certain scenarios, like certain places that you could be elected and have integrity for smaller offices than the President [laughs], that would lead me to some amount of cynicism about the whole system and despair if my faith was in the system. If I was looking to who the next president is to determine my hope for the world.And it's kind of a cheesy Christian thing maybe to say, but my hope is in Jesus. But I think it's actually, even honestly, if your hope was not in Jesus, if it was just in something other than what's happening in our current politics, that's a very powerful thing. You know what I mean? It is a very powerful thing to genuinely have your emotional steadiness in something other than whatever's happening in politics. And for me, that's Jesus. But you know, so that's where I'm trying to sit, and that's why I'm trying to resist the way that the election is trying to make me a cynic.Can Christians Be Politicians Faithfully?Sy Hoekstra: You keep taking breaths like you have something that you wanna say immediately [laughs] [unclear 00:11:14].Jonathan Walton: I'm thinking, if I heard you right you were like, you believe it may be impossible to follow Jesus and be a politician?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And I was thinking about that because I think it's like, we would have to define follower of Jesus and define politician.Sy Hoekstra: Sure.Jonathan Walton: But it's interesting to me that it is impossible to be a servant of empire and follow Jesus. Like it's possible, because Jesus calls them out to be a non-Christian religious person. It is possible for Cornelius to be in the military and be faithful to God.Sy Hoekstra: I see what you're saying.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, but what you're getting at is the incoherence of that reality that we try to assert. So for example, I think it's possible to be a Christian politician. It is impossible to make politics Christian.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. And if you want to be a Christian politician, you're gonna have to recognize that your job is going to be constantly, ceaselessly trying to pull you away from Jesus [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. It is impossible to follow Jesus and be a politician, if a politician is what you are trying to be.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I got you.Jonathan Walton: It is possible to follow Jesus and hold elected office, you know what I mean? But there are some people whose complete identity, which is what you're talking about, “I'm only here to get reelected. I wanna accumulate power, I wanna do that,” like it is impossible to be a politician.Sy Hoekstra: I think it's a little bit harder than that though, because it's not just about your identity if you're a politician, your job is to get reelected. That's what everyone is looking for you to do. That's what your party's looking for you to do, all people who work for you, obviously, that's what they're looking for you to do [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Literally, if you don't get reelected, you can't do the job anymore. So it's like it is an integral part of the job description itself. It's not even just an issue of where your identity lies. You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: That's true. Listen, if you're listening to this, I would love to hear what you think.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Love to hear what you think. Unfortunately, the philosophical argument, the dominoes could start to fall around lots of professions. It's interesting. We're probably gonna talk about this as a subscriber chat now. So there we go [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: There we go.Jonathan Walton: Cool.Sy Hoekstra: Cool. Thanks for that little brief discussion as we go into the voting booths, which is in like a week and a half from when you're listening to this, if it's the day it comes out. And as we continue to behave politically after the voting happens, which I hope everyone listening to this show is doing [laughs], let's try and be shrewd. Innocent and shrewd, right?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: That's what Jesus wants us to be.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: And let's continue to think hard about that. I appreciate that discussion. Let's try to find a way to continue it. We are gonna get into our interview now before we come back and talk about our thoughts on the interview and some stuff about Ta-Nehisi Coates [laughter] in Which Tab Is Still Open.Interview with Kevin NyeOur guest today, as I said, is Kevin Nye. He is a writer and advocate working to end homelessness through engaging best practices. He has written on the intersections of homelessness and faith for Religion News Service, Sojourners, Red Letter Christians and more. He has presented at national conferences on the topic of homelessness. His first book released in August of 2022 and it was called Grace Can Lead Us Home: A Christian Call to End Homelessness. Kevin currently lives with his wife and son in Minneapolis, Minnesota, where he works as the housing director for an organization addressing youth homelessness.Jonathan Walton: Let's get into our interview.[The intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Kevin Nye, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust today.Kevin Nye: Absolutely. It's a pleasure to be here.The Effective ‘Housing-First' Policies Evangelicals Often RejectSy Hoekstra: You and I met about a year ago at the Evolving Faith conference, just after you had published what I thought was a really great article for Sojourners about kind of the difference between treatment-first housing policy and housing-first housing policy, which can, they can sound a bit wonky to people. But you talked about how it's a really important distinction, and how a lot of times Christians are making the wrong choice in choosing the treatment-first policy and favoring those types of policies. And so because I think this distinction will actually help us get at a lot of underlying kind of spiritual and theological issues when it comes to housing policy, can you tell us what these two different approaches are and why you think a lot of conservative Christians are picking the wrong one?Kevin Nye: Absolutely. So the treatment-first methodology, it's kind of the one that we've been using for almost 100 years in response to homelessness, but it also sort of infects a lot of our thinking about many different things. And it essentially says that if you are in poverty, if you are in homelessness, that you have to sort of prove your worthiness of getting out of that. So if you are experiencing homelessness, we know that ultimately the destination that you're hoping for is to be in housing of some kind, an apartment, a house, what have you. But that in order to get there under the treatment-first model, it suggests that you have to sort of check a bunch of boxes. And those boxes have looked different, according to the program, and according to the time that it's been implemented, but they usually include some level of sobriety.So if drugs or alcohol are part of your life, they have to stop. If you struggle with your mental health or even your physical health, that you have to ascribe to a particular treatment plan, and demonstrate your willingness to do that and to stay on it to then achieve whatever objective is set for you by some institution, which often is a shelter or a government program or a Christian institution, like a Rescue Mission. And then depending on which avenue you're going or which institution is involved, that can include a lot of other more arbitrary types of rules, like that if you demonstrate your worthiness or your dedication by applying for a certain number of jobs per week, or attaining employment first, or attending Bible study every day at the Rescue Mission. There's sort of all of these expectations to demonstrate that you are sort of good enough, worthy enough to invest in with this long-term opportunity.That is opposed to the housing-first idea, which we've known and understood for closer to like 30 years and have been studying and practicing ever since, which suggests that rather than do or accomplish all of these things to prove that you deserve housing, housing being sort of the end destination, we lead with the housing because we recognize that housing is the stabilizing force that makes so many of those other things possible. And then we don't just plop you in housing and say, “Good luck,” but we put you in housing and then ask you, “Okay, now, what do you wanna work on?” Now that you have this baseline of stability, of safety, a literal home base, what's next? Let's tackle it together. Now that you can get a good night's sleep. Now that you can charge your phone in an outlet overnight.Now that your documents and your medications are safe. Now that you can buy food to store it in a fridge, rather than go to whatever dinner is available for free for you across the community, or save up enough to get fast food just to fill your belly. All these things that we sort of take for granted that a home with four walls, a roof and a door provide for us are those things that we actually need to be successful. One's ability to stabilize a physical or mental health condition is really difficult if you don't have a safe place to go every night, like where you can store your medication safely, where you can eat a healthy diet, where you can have a normal routine. And even something like drug use and alcohol use, we understand are things that are responsive to a chaotic situation.That if you are living on the streets every day, you are more likely to seek out the soothing effects [laughs] of alcohol, the numbing effects of substances, or the energizing effects of other types of substances, in order to try to get things done that you need to get done. But that even folks who are deep in the throes of those kind of problematic relationships with drugs and alcohol do so much better with housing-first, rather than saying, “Hey, you need to fix all of these things before we even help you feel safe and stable.”Sy Hoekstra: It also strikes me all three of our mutual friend, Josiah Haken, wrote a book where he talked about kind of myths about homelessness. And one of them was the myth that, basically, homeless people are dangerous.Kevin Nye: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And he was like, the real reality of being homeless is that you're actually in more danger than everybody else constantly. You are the one who's the most likely to be the victim who's most likely gonna be robbed, have your stuff taken. And that stuff that's on you, like you said, is all your documents [laughs], it's all of your medicines that you need to remain in your sound mind or whatever. And just having a place to not be worried about that as much feels like an enormous burden lifted off people too, in addition to all the other enormous burdens lifted off people that you just mentioned.Kevin Nye: Absolutely. Yeah, Josiah is great, and his book is really good, too. Neighbors with No Doors, for your listeners to go check that one out.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, yeah for sure.Christianity Today, and Why the Church Doesn't Address Homelessness WellJonathan Walton: This is something that I'm very passionate about. Like Sy said, I've known Josiah for years. I spent a good part of my formative young adult years on the streets with friends. And so a few months ago, you wrote a post on your Substack about an article of yours that Christianity Today was like, “Yep,” and then said, “No.”Kevin Nye: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] So can you tell us about that story, why you decided to go public, and the difference between knowledge and opposition. Because I think some people that are listening to this might think, “Oh, well, if we just know better, then we'll do better.” And I don't think that's true. So could you tell us about your journey writing, then having it get rejected, and then that difference between knowledge about something and opposition. Could you break that down?Kevin Nye: Sure. Yeah, the Christianity Today thing was interesting. When you're a writer on a particular topic and that topic sort of starts to get national attention, which is what was happening, at the time there was a Supreme Court case that was gonna be heard, since then has been heard, Johnson versus Grants Pass, Oregon.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Kevin Nye: We could talk forever about that, but essentially, whether or not municipalities have the right to criminalize homelessness was sort of being decided at the national level. And I wanted to write something about the faith perspective of that. And I have my own Substack and outlets where I can do that, but I thought that this being such a national issue, and my take on it wasn't particularly edgy or controversial. It was just, “Hey, maybe we shouldn't criminalize poor people for being poor.” [laughter]Jonathan Walton: Maybe. Let's try that.Kevin Nye: I thought that that was something… and actually part of what I was writing was not, “Hey, this is what I think.” It was, “Hey, this is what a bunch of churches and faith groups are thinking.” And part of my article was actually about how churches were rallying to support unhoused people in this case and writing into the Supreme Court. So it was almost like, it's kind of pro-church [laughs]. And so I thought given all of that, this would be a pretty good pitch for Christianity Today who is a more conservative publication who I hadn't published with before. I'm more likely to publish with Sojourners, which is less obviously conservative or Religious News Service, which is a little bit more like they're reporting news about religion, not religious news.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Kevin Nye: But I thought this was the right pitch for CT. They had expressed interest in me writing for them before, and it was just about finding the right thing, and I thought this one was it. So I sent it in, and I got a really good response. They agreed. They said, “Hey, this seems like the one. We definitely wanna work with you on it.” And I was pretty upfront from the beginning about what my stance on it was. And they seemed willing along the way, and even a couple times in the process, I just said, “Hey, I just wanna be super clear, this is where I'm going with it. It may be a little different than what you guys are used to publishing on homelessness,” and I just kept getting thumbs up along the way until it was time, essentially to publish it.I had sent it in, it had gotten the final edit, and they had said, “Hey, we're probably gonna publish this on Friday.” And then two hours later, I got an email that just said, “Hey, hold that thought. Just came from a meeting. We might be going in a different direction.” And then I didn't hear anything for 24 hours, and then it was, “Yeah, we are going in a different direction for our coverage.”Jonathan Walton: But did they pay you for it?Kevin Nye: They did. They paid me a kill fee, which…Sy Hoekstra: Which is not the whole thing.Kevin Nye: Yeah. And part of me was like, I wanna be like, “I don't want your money,” [laughter] but then I was like, “I'll take your money and I'll use it for something good.”Jonathan Walton: I can deposit this. Yeah. Right [laughs].Kevin Nye: Yeah. And so I ended up just then sending it to Religion News Service, and said, “Hey, sorry that this is coming late.” Because the deadline was that the Supreme Court was hearing it that week, and so it was sort of a timely piece. And I sent it over there, said, “Hey, I'm sorry this is such short notice, but do you guys want this because another publication didn't want it?” And they ran it. I sat on that for a while deciding whether or not I wanted to say anything about it, because I never want to, I don't wanna stir up trouble just for the sake of trouble. And I don't wanna trash this publication for no reason, even though they've given us some pretty good reasons over the years.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Kevin Nye: But I was like, I don't wanna pick a fight just to pick a fight. And part of that is a professional consideration. As a writer I have the potential to burn a bridge there. So I just sort of said, I'm gonna wait to see what they meant by our coverage is going in a different direction, because it does imply they're gonna publish something, right?Sy Hoekstra: Right.Kevin Nye: And for all I know it could have meant, “Hey, we actually got someone really, super, more qualified than you to write this.” Or, “One of the lawyers who's on the case wanted to write something for us.” And I'd be like, “Well, yeah, of course.” I suspected that wasn't what it meant, [laughs] but I'm gonna withhold judgment, at least publicly for a bit [laughter]. And so I sat on it, and then a couple months later, the Supreme Court ruling came out. So it was supposed to publish when they heard it, and then they had a couple months to deliver a ruling. They delivered a ruling, and Christianity Today had still not published anything, not even about homelessness, period. And so then I thought, “Okay, the ruling just happened.” It also came out the same day that they ruled on presidential immunity.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Kevin Nye: So it was like, okay, there's a lot of competing things to talk about right now so I'm gonna give them a week, two weeks, to see if they put out anything. And then when they didn't, that's when I sort of decided that I wanted to write about not being published, and again, not personal, but write about the fact that nothing was being published about this when it is such a significant ruling about what I would argue is one of the top five most significant issues on everybody's mind, which is housing and homelessness. And sort of how that feeds an ignorance and a lack of Christian conversation about this topic. And again, it wasn't, “How dare they not publish me.” It was sort of like, “How could they not publish anything, especially when they had something to publish, and they chose not to?”Jonathan Walton: Why do you think they killed it and didn't write about it?Kevin Nye: My guess is that ultimately, there is a pretty powerful voice that is Christian and institutionalized in the form of the Gospel Rescue Mission. And those who have supported it have worked in it, worked around it, worked adjacent to it, that does genuinely believe that we should make homelessness harder so that A, either people stop choosing it, which is ludicrous, but more so B, will drive people into institutional settings, like shelters, like Christian shelters, where evangelism can happen, sort of Christian teaching can happen. And the reason I believe that is because there was only one faith perspective that wrote into the Supreme Court in favor of criminalizing, and it was the Grants Pass Gospel Rescue Mission.Criminalizing Homelessness to Force People into Religious SheltersAnd they actually wrote in that publicly available letter that they felt that since it had been ruled at a lower court that they couldn't criminalize, the numbers at their shelter had been declining. Now they failed to mention that this happened at the same time as COVID, and might be another reason that people didn't wanna come into a public shared space type of shelter setting, but that because the city could not use criminalization to compel people into the Rescue Mission, that people were not getting services that they needed. But if you dig into the Gospel Rescue Mission over there, which I did extensively, you learn that they have some of the most egregious rules and expectations of people, and have a very poor reputation among the unhoused community there for how they treat people.And so what then truly is at stake here is in a town like Grants Pass where the only shelter is a Gospel Rescue Mission, can the government criminalize homelessness and force people into a religious setting where they are being taught against their will Christianity in the form of chapel and required Bible studies on a daily basis? And now I don't think Christianity Today thinks that we should institutionalize all unhoused people and scream the Bible at them, but I think that Christianity Today is reluctant to anger the voices who are pretty large and hold a lot of power that defend that institution.The theology behind Misguided Christian Housing ProgramsSy Hoekstra: Can we get a little bit at what some of the reasons are underneath all this stuff? I mean, aside from the [laughs] opportunity to evangelize, forcing people into your program to evangelize them, because that's just your whole end goal as a Christian or whatever, is to convert people, and so the means by which you convert them doesn't matter. Which is, I'm putting it that way because I'm just kind of processing that, because it's gross. It's in line with manipulating people into Christianity by scaring them about hell.Kevin Nye: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Like why not just scare them about prison or anything else?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, right. I'll put you outside.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, exactly [laughs]. But I wonder what other… you've dug into the theology of this, you've dug into people's reasoning for supporting this kind of programming and the powers that be supporting this kind of programming. What are the other motivations, theological reasons that you see behind treating vulnerable people this way?Kevin Nye: Yeah. Well, I mean, the way I framed it obviously, is sort of the most insidious version of it, but I think that most folks who… I mean, especially your frontline workers in a place that, genuinely believe that Jesus is the solution to homelessness. That people who are experiencing homelessness are doing so because of a personal failure, a moral failure, and that if they commit their lives to Jesus, that that will allow them to leave behind the life that led them into the situation that they're in and propel them towards a new life. That's the nice way of understanding what's happening, which I genuinely believe a lot of folks in these settings are operating it from that more positive version.Even what you described as scaring people with hell to get people to accept Jesus, I know people that are in my family who they genuinely believe that the people that they love and care about are gonna go to hell if they don't. And there is this motivation that, again, because they have this belief that is toxic, that the way… if you are committed to that belief, to then address this problem can be very problematic. My experience by and large, has not been that people who experience homelessness are not religious or are not even committed Christians.Sy Hoekstra: Seriously.Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Kevin Nye: And on top of that, an informed understanding of what causes homelessness is not moral personal failure, but very measurable and understandable social issues like the cost of housing, like our mental health systems, like the stagnation of wages, so that housing is more expensive and people aren't making any more money. So one plus one equals two, fewer people can access housing.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, there's so much to say there, but things I wanna highlight, you're basically saying that Jesus is the answer to homelessness, allows you to avoid asking systemic questions, allows you to avoid talking about systems that need to change. It also kind of turns Jesus into something that he never said that he was. He never said he was the answer to homelessness. He also never even said, “If you state a belief in me and read the Bible and pray and x, y and z, then you will automatically start making significantly better moral decisions.”Kevin Nye: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: That's not even true about Jesus. He also didn't say, “If you believe in me, all of a sudden you won't be addicted to meth,” or whatever. You know what I mean?Kevin Nye: Right.Sy Hoekstra: None of this is true. There's a real powerful underlying fundamentalist current in that perspective. In a just don't worry about the politics, don't worry about basically any real earthly concerns, just Jesus, everything else will fall in line after that.Kevin Nye: Yeah, and it's, I think a lot about how it's just an extension of prosperity gospel. That it's the same idea that says if you're an average middle-class American Christian, and you want to become wealthy, have a private jet, a mansion, here's your spiritual steps. Get closer to Jesus, you'll be rewarded with physical wealth. Well, if that's true, the opposite of that would be true, which is that if you are in deep, dire poverty, it must mean that you're that much farther from Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Right.Kevin Nye: And I think even people who would reject the Joel Osteen prosperity rich end of that gospel, still believe a lot of that same stuff, but on the poverty end.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. That's so true.Jonathan Walton: The connection for me happens, is yes, the prosperity gospel, but then also the plantation spirituality.Kevin Nye: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The people who are rich are obedient, the people who are poor are disobedient. And what disobedient people actually need is supervision and discipline.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Kevin Nye: Yes.Jonathan Walton: And so the housing-first, the entire mentality that you are flipping over is saying you don't actually have to be good or better or on the right side of things to receive, which is the opposite of the plantation, which is the opposite of Capitalism, which is the opposite…Sy Hoekstra: You might even call it grace, Jonathan [laughter].Jonathan Walton: I mean, I was gonna get to the title of the book at the end, but like…[laughs].Kevin Nye: And not even just to receive, but to receive in a way that allows freedom and choice. Because that is one of the biggest differences between these two models. And I think, a lot of why it's we need to hold housing back until we've programmed into a person what they should be acting like and being like then we give them housing, because once they have housing, they're free to make their own decisions, and we're afraid of what that looks like. Versus that housing-first model that, baked into housing-first is choice and options and autonomy. And even in the process of getting into housing, it's not just, “Hey, here's the apartment that you get,” although that is how a lot of systems end up working, just because of scarcity of housing.But in a good housing-first model it's, “Here's all the types of housing that are accessible to you. These ones are subsidized this way, these ones are this way. This is in this part of town, this one is connected to these types of services. What works for you?” And then after that choice comes more choices like, “Hey, what's the thing that you wanna work on first?” Which is the treatment-first model says, you got to get sober before you do anything else. And that is just not true. I think that's a big piece of it too, is how much the treatment-first system allows us, whether we're government or religious, to exert social control over people.Jonathan Walton: All that to say, there are people and systems and structures, institutions in place that keep this ideology enforced.Kevin Nye: Yes.Jonathan Walton: It is moving forward. Something, harking back, we had an interview with Lisa Sharon Harper, who I believe you know.Kevin Nye: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And one of the things she said was, the hope is in the work. As we do the work, we will find hope, because we're close and we see progress, we build relationships, that's the fruit of being in the work. And so as people are, what we were just talking about, these institutions, these individuals are reluctant to this evidence-based policy actually being rolled out in the church, where do you see good work being done inside and outside of the church, where you can find that intersection of hope and work?Kevin Nye: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: As people do start to say yes to Matthew 25.Kevin Nye: I mean, I think that my… so my book came out two years ago now, and when I wrote it, I sort of hoped that it would be revelatory for people. That a lot of Christians would be like, “Oh, this is new information. This is a new way of looking at it.” And there was a good amount of that. But what really surprised me, and gave me a lot of hope, was how much response I got that said, “Yes, this is what we over here already believe, and we've been doing.”Sy Hoekstra: Oh.Kevin Nye: Sometimes like, “We didn't know it had a name. We didn't know there were other people thinking and talking about this.” And so in those two years, as I've gotten to travel around and do some speaking and stuff like that, I've gotten to see and hear about a bunch of programs, churches that are merging this sort of faith-based and evidence-based. And, yeah, it's just been, it's filled me with a ton of hope. And where they're, I think the next growth is for them to get organized together, because right now the Rescue Missions are organized. They have a centralized network, and so they can speak together with one voice in opposition to these best practices.But there's not sort of a focal point or a voice box for all these other ones that are doing, like you said, the hope is in the work, they're doing it in their small, local ways, but don't have a collective together to speak to each other and on behalf of one another and on behalf of the things that they believe in. And so that's part of the project I'm working on right now. My next book project is to sort of give voice and awareness to a lot of these ideas that are being implemented in different places that people don't really know about outside of those local communities, and sort of name what is working and why, and hopefully inspire responses from faith communities and individuals that align with best practices and align with their faith.Jonathan Walton: One, I wanna dive into your book, because I actually haven't read it yet, so I'm looking forward to grabbing it. And I'm glad to hear that you have another one. What would you say is the bridge from the one you wrote to this one?Kevin Nye: A lot of different things, but to make it very black and white, it's the first book is about how to think differently about homelessness, and this book is about how you actually go and do that, and how those change beliefs get worked out in things as nitty gritty as program design.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Totally.Kevin Nye: Without being boring, hopefully.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] That's great. Where can people find you or your work?Kevin Nye: So I'm on most social media. I'm not too hard to find there, but my handle is a little different everywhere you go. The best sort of landing spot is my Substack. So that's Kevinmnye.substack.com. And so any new thing that I'm writing, whether it's there or I publish with Sojourners, or I'm speaking somewhere, I always put that out in my newsletter there. And hopefully as some more news comes out about this new book project, I'll be able to make announcements about that there.Sy Hoekstra: That's awesome. We will definitely link to that. Kevin Nye, we so much appreciate having you on the show today. Thank you so much for being here.Kevin Nye: Yeah, absolutely. It was a blast.[The intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Our Thoughts after the InterviewSy Hoekstra: Jonathan, I loved that conversation. Tell me what you are thinking about coming out of it.The Church Is Actively Contributing to the Problem of HomelessnessJonathan Walton: There's a lot. I think that the thing that frustrates me the most, and I think this is true about a lot of just injustices that I'm thinking about right now, is that the church is actively contributing to the continuing…Sy Hoekstra: To the problem.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. When we're literally supposed to not do that. Like, the whole Grants Pass amicus brief, I'm just like, “Really guys?” That takes energy. That takes effort, that takes meetings, that takes emails, takes drafts. It takes time to do that. You can't just like, “Hey, I'm gonna write an amicus brief,” and just submit it. There's an effort that goes into sustaining injustice, and that to me I think is concerning and exhausting.Societies with Colonial Roots Won't Provide “Unearned” BenefitsJonathan Walton: The other thing I think about is, I mean, I would say White American folk religion, talk about a plantation mentality, but it even stretches into addressing injustice. I was having a conversation with Maya yesterday.Sy Hoekstra: Your seven-year-old.Jonathan Walton: Yes. No, she's eight. She's eight.Sy Hoekstra: Oh. I forgot.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. But we were talking about the difference between fairness and justice. And she said, “Baba, is it better to give someone what they need or give someone what they ask for?”Sy Hoekstra: You have the deepest child [laughter].Jonathan Walton: She literally asked me that. And I was like, “Ooh.”Sy Hoekstra: Does Maya wanna be on this podcast [laughter]?Jonathan Walton: No, but she was reading a book. I have a discussion or something at school, and this is what she asked me. So I started talking about the vineyard. I said, “Maya, who gets to decide what is needed? Who are the different people?” And she goes, “Well, someone outside is deciding.” And I was like, “Oh, okay, well, then let's go read the story about Jesus in the vineyard.” Like the kingdom of God is like a vineyard.Sy Hoekstra: You're talking about the parable where he pays all the workers the same, no matter how long they worked, and the ones who worked the longest get angry [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Exactly. And then we went and read… she had only read the first half of the parable about the two sons. She hadn't read the second half. So then we talked about the similarities between the father who runs out to meet the prodigal son, and then how the person in charge gets to decide how grace or resources or whatever are distributed. And I was like, it would seem to me that that person gets to define what is just and what is fair, and what is equitable. And we didn't get to talk about power, but that was ultimately what I was thinking about.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And I don't know how to explain it to an eight year old. But she said everybody should get what they need. But she's like, “How can we do that?” And I said, “Maya, that right there is the fundamental question that we try to put together.” There are people who think and believe and will work tooth and nail for people not to get what they don't think they deserve. “I don't think that person deserves a home. I don't think that person deserves to live where I live. I think they should, quote- unquote, wait in line,” if we're talking about immigration. “I played by the rules. Don't pay off that debt. I worked at a job…” We're constantly doing that. There's a Hawaiian activist, her name escapes me right now, but she said, “You got to remember you live in a colony.”Like the United States is a colony. That's what it is. Another Peruvian scholar is like, coloniality is a real thing. And so in a colony, you cannot have people get things that they quote- unquote, didn't work for. The kingdom of God should literally break the brains of imperialists, which it does [laughs], because it just, it blows up everything. So all that to say, I hope, and we'll pray and will work in the influence that I have to say, “Hey, can we do what Kevin was talking about, like housing-first, resources first, hugs first, communication first?” All that.For Evangelicals, Grace Is Not TangibleSy Hoekstra: Yeah, totally. I had kind of similar thoughts. I was gonna talk about how the moralism underlying all of the policy, like the treatment-first policy like, “You have to earn this, and we are suspicious of you, and we have all these stereotypes going in that we're just not going to question and we're gonna follow. And until you prove yourself worthy of our generosity, we're not gonna give it to you.” And so it's sort of like, we can talk about grace and generosity and all of that all day long, but we're not gonna put our money where our mouth is, especially not government money [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right, exactly.Sy Hoekstra: That's kind of the other side of the coin of the coin of what you were talking about, which is so there's this lack of grace generosity, but I think yours is actually a step further, which is if you're denying grace and generosity, you're going to have to take active steps to reinforce the frankly, evil way of doing things [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And that's the amicus briefs and everything else. What I was just saying, that kind of moralism, it really is connected to the more fundamentalist side of evangelicalism about how, basically, grace is a spiritual thing. It's not a tangible thing. It's not a material thing. It's not something you practice outside of forgiving someone for wronging you. It's not something you do with your money and your resources. It just doesn't really have any business in the public square, or in public policy, which is not a distinction the Bible draws.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: The best you can argue is maybe it's a distinction that under your theology you think the Bible implies. It's definitely not explicit [laughter]. You can look at Leviticus, where there are so so many different provisions where God is requiring people to use the fruits of their own labor to provide for the poor in their neighborhood, and not in particularly efficient ways [laughter]. And Jesus is obviously, or John the Baptist is telling people, “If you have two coats, give one away.” There's the spirit, the direction where everything's going with the kingdom of God is so opposed to that way of thinking, in my view, that it's incredibly frustrating that we have to… Kevin, in particular. I'm frustrated for him, for advocates, and then for most of all, for the actual people who aren't getting housing, who are literally out on the streets. Some of them are freezing to death or starving to death because of our insistence on this moralism.Jonathan Walton: Right. The fundamental thing is at the end of the day, moralism is an argument that you need to earn the stuff, like you were just saying. And then it's like, I'm gonna create an entire ecosystem that justifies your poverty and my comfort.Christians Should Actively Invite Unhoused People into Our NeighborhoodsSy Hoekstra: My other thought was around markets, and a lot of how some of the intractability of housing policy is that so many people just have decided that when you put out public housing or low income housing somewhere, that that lowers the value of the property around it.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Which is by economists, the way they speak, it's an inevitability. It's just the way things are, and it can't be changed. But that is ultimately because the potential buyers of that property are bigots toward poor people [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. No, it's true. Right.Sy Hoekstra: It's such widespread, systemic bigotry that it changes the value of homes and buildings and land. And that's a choice. It is a choice that I will grant you most societies have made [laughs]. Like most societies, rich people want to cordon themselves off from everybody else and to use their money to try and escape the things about this world that are difficult and make us sad and uncomfortable and hurt. But that doesn't mean that it's not still a choice for which God absolutely holds us accountable. Go and read Amos, or whatever [laughter]. There's no question, it does not make God happy, and that we have a different way to go. But what we would need is something that seems kind of impossible at the moment, which is a… you've heard of a NIMBY?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: NIMBY people, like Not In My Back Yard. So that means, “Don't put that new methadone clinic, don't put that new housing project anywhere near me.” We would need a YIMBY movement.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You actually have to have people who say, “Yes. I want poor people around. I want people who are trying to recover from drugs around. I want people who have mental health issues around. Because of my positive value for human life and communal flourishing.” And that truly feels impossible to me. I don't think it is, again, I think it's a choice. And one thing that I'm trying to do, I have narrow influence in the world. One person over whom I have a lot of influence is my two year old. I walk around New York City with her all the time. I take her to daycare, other places. And I'm trying to make a point that, we're not going to be afraid of the person who's having the mental health crisis, because the actual reality is, in that mental health crisis, they are in more danger than we are. They are the ones at risk, we are not.Most of them are not violent. A lot of us want to be violent towards them. Aka Jordan Neely, who was killed on the subway because he was having a mental health crisis, and people were sufficiently afraid of him. And so if I'm on the subway platform with my daughter and someone's having a mental health crisis, and they're not that far away from us, and people will move away from that person because they're afraid, I will stay there. And that has never been a problem, not once. You can tell me that that's dangerous or risky, and I don't care, because I know you're wrong, and I'm going to teach the person that I have the ability to teach that you're wrong [laughs]. And we're gonna stay there, and we're gonna be completely fine. I've been here for 16 years now. I've lived in New York City, and I've been around people having, I've worked with even my clients as a lawyer.These are not alien, weird people having scary freakouts to me. These are real people, who by the way, are fully conscious when they're having their mental health crises, and they can see everyone walking away from them, and they know how afraid everybody is of them, and that affects them deeply.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And I'm not gonna be part of it. I will be the yes in my backyard person, even if nobody else is. There are other people who are. I'm not saying it's me against the world, but that is something that we need to insist on it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, and honestly I think that ties literally perfectly into Which Tab Is Still Open.Which Tab Is Still Open? — Ta-Nehisi CoatesSy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah. Let's get into it. So this is Which Tab Is Still Open. This is the segment where we dive a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter, which you can get by joining the free mailing list at KTFPress.com. You'll get resources articles, podcasts, books, everything, recommendations from Jonathan and I on ways to grow in your discipleship and in your political education. So go to KTFPress.com, sign up for that free mailing list. Jonathan, we're talking about Ta-Nehisi Coates today. Why don't you tell us what we're talking about exactly?Jonathan Walton: Yes. So Ta-Nehisi Coates has a new book, it's called The Message. A very significant portion of it is about his trip to Israel and Palestine, occupied West Bank, Hebron, places like that. Some important points he makes are that when you see how Palestinians are treated up close, it's not really that hard to see it as apartheid or Jim Crow or any other exploitative, discriminatory system that has been set up. And he took a trip to the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem, and found it profoundly moving as well, but just couldn't shake that the lesson Zionists took from the Holocaust was that, “We have to obtain our own power at all costs to prevent this from happening again.” He's had some really fascinating media appearances while promoting the book that we'll link to in the show notes.One of them, you mentioned the newsletter, was a great interview with The Daily Show. The interview that instigated a lot of this fervor and dialog and will probably help him sell a lot of books, which he's also said [laughter], was with CBS because he was basically ambushed by Tony Dokoupil, and was called an extremist in asking him pretty nonsensical questions for people who are against genocide, totally normal for people who are for Zionism. And the question he asked that many people ask is, “Does Israel have the right to exist?” And it's a rhetorical question, which Ta-Nehisi Coates actually answered when he said that countries don't have the right to exist, they exist by power. Just that turn was really great.But about the interview, there was controversy, because it came out that the interviewer went around CBS's editorial process and just went off on his own without telling anybody what he was doing. So Sy, what are your thoughts?The Power of Clarity and Focus in Prophetic Truth-TellingSy Hoekstra: I am so happy that Ta-Nehisi Coates is back writing nonfiction [laughter]. That's my main and primary thought. Everything he wrote in the 2010s is very formative for a lot of my thinking. I just love his approach to writing and journalism. He said many times he just, he writes to learn. He really appreciates the power of writing, and he has an incredible amount of moral clarity, a really impressive inability of everyone who's trying to distract him, to distract him. Like he's very focused. Like that question that you just brought up was a good example of it. Somebody says, “Does Israel have the right to exist?” He says, “Israel exists. States don't have the right to exist, they just do. They establish themselves with power. And now I'm gonna talk about, because Israel does exist, how does it exist, and why is that a problem?”It's just, I'm going to acknowledge your question. I'm going to say very quickly why it doesn't make any sense, and then I'm gonna get back to the point that matters [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And that is something I want to emulate in the way that I go about my writing and my commentary and all that. I mean, those are kind of my… [laughs] I'm not sure I have a lot of substantive thoughts about what you just said, I'm just happy he's back. He took a long path down the fiction road and was writing comic books and all kinds of other stuff, which is also very cool. And he also did that because he was like, “That's the challenge for me as a writer right now. I've never done this. I'm a little bit scared of it. I think being nervous is good as a writer. And I'm gonna go do this thing that makes me sort of uncomfortable, instead of just continuing to churn out bestsellers about whatever.” You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: [laughter]. Right. Let me go and be challenged. Right right right.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, which I really respect that too, even though it means there were several years where I didn't get his commentary on stuff that I would have appreciated [laughter]. That's what I have been thinking as I've been watching him. But how about you, and you said you were gonna connect it back to what we were talking about before?Jonathan Walton: Yes. So one, amen, I'm glad he's writing nonfiction as well.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It's really powerful to me what truth telling does. He is stewarding a platform. He is leveraging his voice. He is doing what I would hope followers of Jesus would do in the ways that we can and the lives that we live every day. You're leveraging your platform with your daughter. You are her biggest influence. You and Gabrielle. The stewardship of his power and platform to elevate and center the most marginalized voice in the media landscape over the last 65 years, people from the Middle East. That we say the Middle East, because we're the center of the world.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And so that reality comes from… I've listened to so many interviews. I listened to his one with The Daily Show, MSNBC, Zeteo with Mehdi Hassan. I listened to the one with Trevor Noah. I'm gonna listen to the one for Democracy Now!, I'm gonna listen to the one with The Gray Area, because I need to be reminded every day that there are people willing and able to say the hard things, not be distracted or dissuaded from what they're trying to say, and be willing to communicate that they would risk their own injury. He said, “It doesn't matter what someone else has done to me or how evil someone is, we should not kill them.” Over and over again. There is no world where it's, “Oh, it's complex. Oh, it's complicated.”No, no, no, it's not. It's not complicated. It becomes complicated if you don't think about it. Everything's complicated if we don't think about it. But if you actually sit down and think about what it would mean to be Palestinian and what it would mean to be a Jewish person post Holocaust, post multiple pogroms, I would love for us to arrive at the point where we're like, “I don't want to perpetuate that against anyone else, because it was perpetrated against me,” which is love your neighbor as yourself.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Which he's not a follower of Jesus, but where we have instead landed is where he is willing to wrestle, he talked about this with Trevor Noah, he would hope that he would not become someone who would commit acts of violence to keep acts of violence from happening to him. That, I think is a rub. Like Nat Turner's rebellion and what happened on October the seventh when the quote- unquote, Hamas escaped. Even the words we use to describe the attack that happened, it literally is described like a breakout a lot of the times, in Zionist literature and communication. All of these things frame the Lebanese, or frame now the Iranians as not people. And what Ta-Nehisi Coates is trying to do is actually say they are people.And that gets back to what you're talking about with, yes in my backyard. This is a person. Jordan Neely is a person. The person on the street having the mental health crisis, the person who's going through a messy divorce and doesn't have anywhere to go, the folks that are unemployed or bust up here from Texas, these are individuals made in the image of God, who do not deserve harm. That is the thing that draws me back to Coates' interviews, because he's not avoiding the hard questions, but what he is doing is communicating a truth that the people asking hard questions don't like. We are no better than the person that we're shooting or bombing or killing. We're just not. And so why are we doing that to someone who is literally just like us?And so I will keep watching, I will keep listening, keep reading. I hope that there is a shift happening. I'm not optimistic. I'm grateful for him and driving the conversation, because it feels something has broken through that I hope continues, because that was a conversation on CBS Morning Show. That was a conversation on progressive, liberal, conservative. Like people are talking about the book, even if you're critiquing it, you got to talk about it. I'm glad that that's happening, and I hope that this is taking the trajectory of what happened in South Africa, that's the best case scenario.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: It's not the best case scenario, but politically in the limits that we have, it's the best case scenario.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. And I think he thinks that way. Like when he talks about the power of writing, he's not talking about the power of my book to end the war, he's talking about the power of my book to influence some people who so

We hear it all the time: Americans need to have a conversation about race. The obvious reason for that recommendation is what appears to be increasing racial polarization more than 50 years after the landmark civil rights legislation of the 1960s. Why is this happening at this time in history? Are these conversations only reinforcing existing attitudes and prejudices? Is it possible for White people to have a conversation about race, even with one another, without becoming angry? Is this why we (White people) have become so obsessed with military weaponry? When all is said and done, who's winning and who's losing? Well, one author's unique and provocative book, Prejudice, Racism, and Tribalism: A Primer For White People, explores these issues, one at a time, and hopes to put readers on a healthier path. “The book is for White Americans seeking to understand today's political and racial divides,” says Dr. D'Agostino. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/arroe-collins-like-it-s-live--4113802/support.

It's Never Been a Level Playing Field: Overcoming 8 Racial Myths to Even the Field by Steve Brigham https://www.amazon.com/Never-Been-Level-Playing-Field/dp/B0D785ZDC9/ In It's Never Been a Level Playing Field, the author embarks on a journey to dissect and challenge the deeply ingrained myths that continue to perpetuate racial inequality in America. Each chapter delves into a specific myth, from the fallacy of equal opportunity to the enduring inequalities in housing, education, and justice systems. In this book, you will: Uncover the pervasive influence of White-oriented systems and beliefs that have shaped American society for centuries. Understand the historical structures, both legal and cultural, that have upheld White advantage and supremacy. Dismantle the illusion of a level playing field and expose systemic biases that disadvantage African Americans in housing, education, and justice systems. Learn how these myths intersect and perpetuate racial inequity and injustice in modern America. Discover a roadmap for systemic change and transformative policies to build a more equitable future. It's Never Been a Level Playing Field is a call to action for all Americans to understand race issues in America and contribute to the fight for equality. Read this book and join the movement toward a more just and inclusive America. It's Never Been a Level Playing Field offers a profound exploration of the deeply entrenched issues of race, privilege, and systemic inequality that have shaped the fabric of our nation. With keen insight, Brigham dissects the myths that perpetuate racial disparities and presents bold ideas for dismantling these longstanding injustices. To those in pursuit of John Lewis' good trouble, this book stands as a vital roadmap for understanding the roots of racial injustice and a compelling call to action for all of us to take part in building a more just and equitable society. A beloved community." State Delegate Jazz Lewis, Maryland House of Delegates, 24th District (Prince George's County) Comprehensive and bold, It's Never Been a Level Playing Field challenges readers to rethink racial inequality in America. Critiquing the fallacy of individual meritocracy, the book exposes the dirty underbelly of White supremacy and domination at the heart of the American project and its consequences for Black Americans. From urban renewal and redlining to the dumping of toxic waste in Black communities, Brigham shows how White Americans and institutions have upheld an unjust system through their action and inaction. In tracing how violent practices have endured and shape-shifted from slavery to our pretense politics, he shows why racial disparities and disadvantage persist in everything from education, health care, and criminal justice to housing and entrepreneurship—and what we can do about it. It's Never Been a Level Playing Field is sure to spark needed debate in classrooms and boardrooms, and around kitchen tables across the country. Willow S. Lung-Amam, Ph.D., Associate Professor of Urban Studies and Planning at the University of Maryland, College Park About the author Steve Brigham is a leader in the public engagement field who, for the past 24 years, has known great success as a facilitator, consultant, and designer of complex public meetings and community-building processes on critical public policy issues. He has facilitated numerous national and international forums. Since 2010, his bread-and-butter consulting has focused primarily on local and metro D.C. issues, such as land use policy, affordable housing, transportation, support for BIPOC business owners in jeopardy of displacement, economic development, and public school redistricting. In the past decade, Steve's work and volunteer time have increasingly tackled racial equity and equitable development issues. Steve is the proud father of two bi-racial children and lives in Prince George's County, MD.

Doug Casey shares his recent experiences in Asia. We discuss historical events from this day in history. And we discuss the war on the American middle class and, in particular, white Americans.   00:00 The War Against the Middle Class 01:43 Historical Events on This Day 02:46 Mount Rushmore and American Presidents 05:03 The Evolution of Currency 06:44 The Orient Express and Travel Tales 09:36 Railroads and Global Investments 13:07 Exploring Malaysia and Thailand 26:26 The Homelessness Dilemma in Denver 27:23 Venezuelan Real Estate Market Insights 29:40 Speculating on Venezuelan Investments 31:03 Drug Problems and American Politics 32:33 Middle East Tensions and U.S. Involvement 36:50 Hurricane Aftermath and Government Response 45:26 Elite Panic and Control During Disasters 50:29 Concluding Thoughts and Future Discussions

[REBROADCAST FROM September 9, 2024] Author and journalist Sarah Smarsh has spent the last decade dedicating herself to correcting stereotypes, misinformation, and prejudice around the lives and beliefs of rural, working-class White Americans. She speaks from experience, as the daughter of two poor Kansas residents. Now, she's collected that decade of writing in her new book, Bone of the Bone: Essays on America by a Daughter of the Working Class. Smarsh joins us to discuss as part of our election series, Get Po-LIT-ical.  

Today, we're talking all about the recently-released Confession of Evangelical Conviction:-        What the confession is and what it says-        Why we signed it and got involved promoting it-        How the American church got to the point where a confession of very basic political theology like this is necessary-        And after that conversation, we talk the many layers of Christian nationalism involved in the debacle at Trump's recent trip to Arlington National CemeteryMentioned on the episode:-        The Confession of Evangelical Conviction, and the associated resources-        The video we produced to promote the confessionCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Sy Hoekstra: When we first started doing this work and we published our anthology, we went on a couple of podcasts about it. A common thing that people asked of us at the time was, where do you think the White American church, where do you think the like 81 percent of the church, the White evangelical church that voted for Trump is going? And the first time I said it, I sort of surprised myself and I was like, look, it's being cut off the vine for not bearing good fruit and thrown in the fire. There's been a long time coming of a divorce, like a complete split between White evangelicals in America and followers of Jesus.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: We have a great show for you today. We're doing something a little bit different. We are talking about a bit of a movement, a little, a confession that we have signed onto that we're a part of that we're producing some media around that you may have seen by the time this episode comes out. And it's a confession of sort of evangelical faithfulness to Jesus in a political context. And it is probably a little bit off the beaten path of kind of some of the political commentary that we normally engage in. And we wanted to talk to you about why we think it is a good and strategic thing for us to do during this season, give you some of our thinking behind how we kind of strategize politically and think about ourselves as part of a larger theological and political movement.So I think this will be a really good conversation. We're also gonna get into our Which Tab Is Still Open and talk to you about Christian nationalism and whiteness through the lens of Donald Trump doing absurd things at Arlington National Cemetery [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: But we will get into all of that in a moment. Before we do, Jonathan Walton.Jonathan Walton: Hey, remember, if you like what you hear and read from us at KTF Press and would like for it to continue beyond the election season, I need you to do two things. Go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber. Now, you could also tell other people to do that as well if you've already done that. We've got a ways to go if we're going to have enough people to sustain the work, but we think it's valuable, and I hope you do too. So go to KTFPress.com, sign up, and that gets you all of the bonus episodes of this show, access to our monthly Zoom calls with the two of us and more. So again, KTFPress.com. Become a paid subscriber.What is the Evangelical Confession of Conviction, and Why Is KTF Involved?Sy Hoekstra: All right, Jonathan, let's get started in our conversation. We've signed onto this document called The Confession of Evangelical Conviction. We've produced some media around it. First of all, what is it and what does it say?Some Basic Political Theology That We Need to Restate at This Cultural Moment with UnityJonathan Walton: [laughs] Well, I think the question of what it is, it's words [Sy laughs]. Like there's these things that we put together, it's words. And I think the reason that it's powerful is because of when and how it's said. And so these are basic confessions that every Christian should believe, but it seems like the reason that we're doing it right now and that I've signed onto is because there are seasons when the discipleship and formation of the church needs to be plain and centered. And so being able to say, “I give allegiance to Christ alone,” and then have that be reverberated across denominations, across movements of quote- unquote, Christians around the country that are usually so disparate, they usually don't communicate, they usually disagree with each other in very public ways, to say, “Hey, hey, hey.”We need people to understand who don't follow Jesus, that when Gandhi said, “I like Christ, I don't like Christians,” that's part of the problem. We are part of that problem. Where we don't articulate what we know, what we believe, what we know to be true. I think this is an articulation of that, speaking particularly to a cultural and political and social moment that needs the clarity that Jesus can bring.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. So this is just to get into the weeds of it. It's a confession signed by I would say, the sort of extreme ends, at least to the people that we know about right now, I don't know who's gonna sign it in future, but center-right to more progressive left. And the basic confessions, like the seven statements of the confession are, “We give our allegiance to Jesus Christ alone. We will lead with love, not fear. We submit to the truth of Scripture. We believe the Gospel heals every worldly division. We are committed to the prophetic mission of the Church. We value every person as created in God's image.” And “We recognize godly leaders by their character.” So this is very basic theology [laughs] like you said. And you got a little bit at why it matters to put this out there, why we are involved. I agree with you. I think it's more about the context and it's also about who is saying it more than it is about the content.Because, and by the way, we should say we are giving you our reasons for signing this and why we think it's important. This is not… like there's a group of people that were involved in writing it, so there's lots of people involved who we don't know precisely why they signed [laughs] or precisely why the people who wrote it decided it was necessary. We're talking to you about our opinions. So to me, if you have something that says we pledge our allegiance to Christ alone, that's a rebuke of Christian nationalism to me.We judge godly leaders by their character, that's a rebuke of people who argue that Trump is a godly leader or a leader who has been appointed by God in some way or another. So those are important things to say. And it's with people across a pretty big spectrum of, as I said, the political range. Would Jonathan and I go a lot further than this if we said what we thought is important for political discipleship? Yes, we would, and you know that, because you've heard our other episodes. Or if you haven't, go listen to our other episodes [laughs]. We would go a lot further than that, yes. But we think, I think it's good to work with a broad range of people during a political campaign.Reaching a Broad Audience and Pushing the American Church to ChangeSy Hoekstra: Like I think when you're talking about discipleship at a moment when tensions are extremely high around theology and politics, it is good to do these kinds of things where you are trying to scale your efforts.Where you're trying to reach as many people as possible in the hopes that you will change some minds, both so that they will more faithfully follow Jesus, and in this specific context, so they won't vote for Donald Trump. That's one of my personal reasons for being involved in this [laughs]. And that's how you do campaigns in general. That's how campaigns operate. You try and call as many people as you can. You try and put commercials out there as widely as you can toward your targeted audience, whatever. Not in the hopes that the vast majority of the people who see it are going to suddenly be like, “Oh my goodness, I agree with everything you say,” but in the hopes that you'll reach enough of the people whose minds you can change to make a difference in their decision when it comes to November.You will reach them and you will start to be one of the people who affects their choices, is what I'm trying to say. So I don't know, that's kind of the strategy of it from my point of view. It is a similar way of thinking to me from the anthology. When we published the anthology four years ago, it was different because we were letting people say their own beliefs. And it was people from all over the spectrum kind of saying why they weren't voting for Trump in whatever way they saw fit [laughs], on whatever topic they saw fit. That was our approach. But this is the way some other people are going to do it, and we're gonna be happy to work with them in that way.Jonathan Walton: I think for me, I see the political strategy of it. I see the strategery that's happening, to use a word from SNL. My hope is that…Sy Hoekstra: From SNL 25 years ago [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. My hope… [laughs]. It was such a great sketch. “Strategery,” it was so good. “I'm the decider” [Sy laughs]. So I think one of the things that stands out to me, particularly in reviewing it more and assign it and then come on board, is, I hope that this is a Belhar Confession type moment for the United States and followers of Jesus. Particularly, because when we look at the Dutch Reformed Church, the Dutch Reformed Church was the theological backbone and framework for apartheid in South Africa. They gave the covering for those things to happen. It gave theological and moral legitimacy to a movement that was oppressive, violent, exploitative, and un-Christian at every level. Because there are Christian leaders who are willing to say, “You know what? This is really good. This is actually right. This is good and just, and God intended this.” And we have the exact same type of nonsense happening in the United States.There are quote- unquote, prophets and apostles and preachers and teachers and publishing houses and Amazon independent book publishers rolling out materials that say, “America first.” America is the kingdom of God. America is the kingdom of heaven. America is this baptized land on the earth, as opposed to being a land that is rooted in land theft, genocide, violence, patriarchy, greed and exploitation. Which it is that. It's actually not the kingdom of God at all. And so I hope that this creates a groundswell that goes beyond November 5th and beyond January 20th. And could this be a pivot point of orientation for people who followed Jesus to say, “You know what? Actually Jesus didn't say any of that.” If all of these people, right, left, middle, above, otherwise are saying this, maybe I should consider. “Oh, Randall Balmer said that, and Mercy Aiken” [Sy laughs]? “Shane was there too? Alright. Shane is on the same page as Curtis Chang and Sandra Van Opstal? Alright, let me jump in and get on this.” That's what I hope happens, is that it becomes impossible to avoid the question of allegiance to Jesus, or allegiance to the United States. Just like in South Africa the question was, are you pledging allegiance to apartheid or are you gonna follow Jesus?Sy Hoekstra: I totally agree with that. And I would say that it is 100 percent in line with the sort of premise of this podcast, which is helping people shake the dust and walk away [laughs] from the places where the word of God is not accepted as Jesus put it. And you let your peace return to you and you move along on your way.Jonathan Walton: Yes.How Did We Get to the Point Where This Confession Is Necessary?Sy Hoekstra: So let's actually talk about that thing that you were just saying. The thing where all these people from these different walks of life are coming together to make this specific statement at this time. How did we get here, aside from the obvious thing that Donald Trump is very good at uniting people who oppose him [laughter]. How did we get to this point in the church in America?Jonathan Walton: I think we need to narrow the scope a little bit.Sy Hoekstra: Okay.Jonathan Walton: Of how we got to this point, I think I would start at Acts 2 [laughter]. But, and then the church and then the alliance with the empire to escape persecution. Constantinople like Nicea, I mean…Sy Hoekstra: Let's focus on America.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, let's focus on the United States.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Zoom in a little bit.The Moral Majority Took Us Very Far down a Path Away from JesusJonathan Walton: I think that one of the pivot points in the United States is 2008 in the ascendance of Barack Obama. With Barack Obama, you have what was roiling and starting with Al Gore, but like can Christians vote for Democrats and still be Christians? Because with the ascendance of the moral majority, with what Randall Balmer talks about this coalescing around abortion as a position, and then the policies laid out by Jerry Falwell. And there was a conference in 1979 in Houston. Lots of organizations came out of that gathering. And so when those types of things occur, I think we are living in the wake of that wave, but that wave wasn't really challenged until 2008 when many, many, many, many people said, “Oh, I wanna vote for Barack Obama.”And so with the ascendance of Obama, then the question particularly among the Black community from evangelical Christians is like, can you be a Christian and vote for Obama? And that was talked about extensively in Tamice's book, Faith Unleavened, which is amazing. And that scene that she describes of the dissonance between the White evangelical church that she was sitting in, and the conversation she was having with her grandma on the phone, who she called Momma.Sy Hoekstra: Where her family was having a party because Obama had been elected and her White church was having a mournful prayer service.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I think a lament session basically, for the United States being now overtaken by a demonic force. And so I think if we start there and move forward, like if this was a ray coming from a point, then the line actually starts to diverge from there, from the center point. And now we are actually so far apart that it's very, very difficult to justify what's happening. So if we're at our end points right now, we have followers of Jesus legitimizing sexual violence by saying Trump is fine. You have followers of Jesus legitimizing fraud, saying that that's fine. You have followers of Jesus legitimizing insurrection, saying that's fine. We are way, way down the road and very far apart from these basic confessions.And so I think people that are co-opted and indoctrinated by Fox News and the conservative White evangelical and conservative Catholic and conservative… because there's a smattering of Christian movements that have so aligned themselves with political power that it is very apparent even to non-Christians, that this is not Christ-like. And so I think for us, similar to the church in South Africa, to say, “Hey, we need to just make very plain every person is made in the image of God, and you shouldn't enslave, violate and steal from people.”If we could articulate that and do that, and have a movement around that, then I think that is how we got here, is that basic tenets of following Jesus have stayed the same, but forces, institutional, the powers, the principalities, and also people who chose to align themselves with that have taken the ball and run so far down the road that even people who don't follow Jesus and folks who just have basic biblical engagement are seeing that this is just not the way. And so I think followers of Jesus across the spectrum are starting to say, “You know what? This is a moment that we can actually speak into.”The White Evangelical ChurchA Divorce between White Evangelicals and Followers of JesusSy Hoekstra: Yeah, I agree with all that. I think, I mean, look, when we first started doing this work and we published our anthology, we went on a couple of podcasts about it. A common thing that people asked of us at the time was, where do you think the American church, where do you think the like 81 percent of the church, the White evangelical church that voted for Trump is going?” And the first time I said it, I sort of surprised myself, but I was like, “Look, it's being cut off the vine for not bearing good fruit and thrown in the fire.” That's it. There's been a long time coming of a divorce, like a complete split, I think, between White evangelicals in America and followers of Jesus.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: White evangelicals have had a whole long history of being involved in, as you said, in the exact same way that the Dutch Reformed Church was involved in apartheid, just being involved in everything. Every [laughs] terrible thing America's ever done, we've been there cheering it on and supporting it in all kinds of ways. And I think a lot of what Trump in particular, and it's sometimes a little bit hard to put my finger on why it was him, but Trump in particular, I think highlighted to a lot of Christians who viewed themselves as kind of like just nice, gentle, center right Christians who were a part of a larger movement where maybe there were some people who were a little bit off the deep end, but overall, these institutions and these people are trying to accomplish good things in the world and follow Jesus faithfully, realized that that wasn't the case.I think there are a lot of people who realized that they actually had opinions about what it meant to follow Jesus that were dramatically different than the average person in their institutions, or the average evangelical Republican.Policy Debates for White Evangelicals Have Been a Cover for Power HungerSy Hoekstra: Peter Wehner, I think would be one of these people, who writes for the New York Times. He was a George W. Bush speech writer. He recently wrote an article saying, “Look, Donald Trump has explicitly said that if you took one of these super restrictive state abortion bans and you passed it in Congress and you put it on my desk, I would veto it. I would not pass a national abortion ban.”Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Which for the pro-life movement, that's the end goal. That would be [laughs], that would be the thing they've been fighting for for decades [Jonathan laughs]. And he has said, “I will not sign this.” And do you hear anything about that from Franklin Graham [laughs]?Jonathan Walton: So Al Mohler was on the Run-Up of the New York Times this week, when you listen to this probably like two weeks ago, talking about how, “Hey, Donald Trump just said he's not gonna sign a national abortion ban. What's your position on that?” And his position hasn't changed, because again, it is framed as you all are the radical people, not us. We are the victims, not you. There's a constant revision of reality that they are gonna continue to turn out and communicate that is rooted in fear and a lust for power and control and dominance. And that is toxic as all get-out, and obviously un-Christian.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, that was the end of my point, was that a thing that people have been arguing for a long time, which is that, this focus on abortion, this focus on prayer in school, or this focus on whatever the evangelical issue of the day is, has in fact been about power from the perspective of the leaders.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Maybe not the rank -in-file people like marching and the March for Life or whatever.Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: But the leaders are after power, and they always have been. That's what, if you go back a couple years to our episode with Mako Nagasawa, the first episode of season two where we talked about abortion. That's what his whole book is about, is the history of abortion policy and how it's almost never been about abortion. It's almost always been about something else like anti-immigrant sentiment or professionalizing the medical profession or whatever. It's always been about some other issue of people trying to establish themselves and gain power over somebody else. That's what I think a lot of people are realizing, and so a lot of people who are, I think more to the right in the group of people who have signed this document that we have are on that journey, like are in the middle of it.Or not in the middle of it, but they've been going on it for a few years and they've been rejected by who they thought were their people for saying things like, “Hey, should we maybe adhere a little more closely to the teachings of Jesus?” [laughs] And now they're saying, okay, they've gotten to a point where they're like, “I need to draw a line in the sand. I need to make something clear here.” And that I think is different. That is genuinely different than eight years ago when everybody was, a lot of people in the middle were just kind of waffling.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Yeah, right.Sy Hoekstra: Were not really sure what to do yet. And they still viewed the people on the far right who were all in for Trump as possibly a minority on their side, or possibly just something like a phase people were going through. Something that would flare up and then die, and it just didn't turn out that way. I think that's kind of how I view a lot of how we got to the place that we are now.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Again, zoomed in on America and not looking at the entirety of church history, which is where you wanted to go [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And I mean, and I'll name some of the people that are key to that. So, Kristin Kobes Du Mez, like her book Jesus and John Wayne, Jemar Tisby's book, The Color of Compromise. And we could also throw in some Christianity adjacent, but loved by them books as well. So like all of the quote- unquote, anti-racist books, where people who are trying to leave the race-based, class-based, gender-based environmental hierarchy that White evangelicalism enforces, like I wrote about that in Twelve Lies as an explicit book. But you could say that Ibram X. Kendi's book is trying to get away from that. That White Fragility is trying to get away from that. That all of these books pushing back against [laughs], what now is called like Trad Wife and all these different things, it's trying to push back against these things. They're trying to call people to another reality because the one that some people have found themselves in is deeply unhelpful and not Christian.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I feel like that's been like you're refrain of this podcast. “And also, not Christian” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Not Christian. Right.Sy Hoekstra: And not Jesus.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Do we have any other thoughts on this subject, or do we want to jump into our segment?Jonathan Walton: I just think people should go sign it.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: And there's a fun bible study there that [laughs] we talked about two weeks ago on the podcast and spread the word about it. I think it's gonna be a good thing.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, the link to the website, the people who organized it, Jonathan said, “Hey, you can put the Bible study that we talked about in our last episode up, if you want a place for people to go to scripture on these subjects.” And they did.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: So that's cool. We will have the link to the confession in the show notes, as well as the link to the video that we created, which has a bunch of the signers of the confession reading parts of it, which we would love it if you would all share as widely as possible on your social media, and share the confession as well. We hope that this, as I said, changes somebody's hearts and minds, has some good effect on some people both in their discipleship and in their politics, which is what we're all about.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Amen. There's actually a worship album that came out too. So along with Phil Vischer's cartoons for kids that can be shown in churches, there's a Return to Love album by a bunch of folks that you all may know like Will Matthews, Crystal Lewis, Ryan Edgar. These are folks that have led worship in great places that the evangelical world has followed for a long time. And so having worship leaders willing to call us out as well is pretty great. Along with Phil Vischer, because these videos will definitely be great for kids.Sy Hoekstra: Is that worship album already out?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, it's out right now [laughs]. You could click on it.Sy Hoekstra: I don't know how they did that that fast. That's incredible [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Hey man, listen. There's a thing called the Holy Spirit.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And I think we all know that when Jesus moves, Jesus can do some things.Which Tab Is Still Open?: Trump at ArlingtonJonathan Walton: And so let's get into our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open?, where we dive a little deeper into one of our recommendations from the newsletter. And remember, you can get our newsletter for free by signing up for the mailing list at KTFPress.com. You'll get recommendations on articles, podcasts, and other media from both of us on things that will help you in your political education and discipleship. Plus, you'll get reflections to keep you grounded and hopeful as we engage in this challenging work together. News about KTF and what's going on, and a lot more. So go get that free subscription and a paid one too. Alright. So this is your recommendation, so let's jump into it.Sy Hoekstra: This actually has a lot to do with what we were just talking about.Jonathan Walton: Yes, it does.Sy Hoekstra: This is all about Christian Nationalism [laughter]. And Trump kind of stepping in it when it comes to dealing with his Christian Nationalist followers. So here's the story, and the article that I recommended in the newsletter was actually, it both gave the details of the story, but it was actually for me, an example of kind of the thing that I was critiquing [laughs]. It was an Atlantic article, and basically the facts of what happened are as follows. Trump went to Arlington National Cemetery, which if you don't know, is I just learned the second, not actually the largest, the second largest national cemetery in the country.Jonathan Walton: Oh. Huh.Sy Hoekstra: The largest one's on Long Island, Jonathan, I had no idea.Jonathan Walton: What!Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Yeah.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] I did not know that.Sy Hoekstra: So the people who are buried in Arlington are soldiers who served in active duty. Some of them died, some of them were retired and passed away later. And then like very high ranking government officials, like Supreme Court justices or presidents or whatever. So Trump went and visited a specific spot that had I think 13 soldiers who died during the evacuation of Afghanistan when there was a suicide bomb attack from the Taliban.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And he did this basically to highlight Biden administration screw ups. You didn't handle this evacuation well. And so because Harris is part of the administration, he's criticizing his opponent. And he went and took some pictures, which is fine, but he then was like specifically taking pictures in this area and like narrating a video talking about Biden screw ups and everything. And an employee of the cemetery pointed out correctly that campaign activities are illegal under federal law [laughs] at Arlington National Cemetery. And they kept going anyways. And they got in a little bit of an argument with her, and then later to the press said that she is mentally ill and was having a mental health crisis in that moment, and that she needed to be fired.And, fortunately the cemeteries said, “No, that's all a lie, and she was correctly telling you that you shouldn't have been doing what you were doing and et cetera.”Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: But there were a number of people, and I don't know if this is a majority or anything like that, but there were actually some Trump supporters who viewed this as a violation, like something that Trump really shouldn't have done. He was being disrespectful to the dead, the troops who were there, by doing partisan stuff at the National cemetery. It was not necessarily about the things that he was saying, but just by conducting yourself in a way that you're not supposed to conduct yourself at a national cemetery.Sy's Experience with Arlington and it's Strong Christian NationalismSo here's my in for this. I have a very long history of military [laughs] service in my family. Somebody in my family went on Ancestry.com one time, and I have a direct ancestor who was a drummer boy in the Continental Army with George Washington [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Oh, wow.Sy Hoekstra: And somebody who enlisted in the Union Army during the Civil War. And my great-grandfather was in World War II in Korea, grandfather was in Vietnam. And my grandfather who was in Vietnam, he died when I was about 10. My grandmother remarried a very highly decorated army colonel also from Vietnam, who he passed away and we had a funeral for him at Arlington. And Arlington does like 20, 30 funerals a day. So if you're a rank-in-file soldier, it's like a very, it's an in and out thing [laughs]. But because of either his rank or his awards or both [laughs], it was an event, Jonathan. It was like, we had the bigger, more beautiful chapel, and then we had a procession, because I can't see, I can't tell you how many it was, but at the very least, dozens of soldiers with a commanding officer taking his casket from the church to the burial site, there was a 21-gun salute. There was the presentation of the flag with the shell cases from the 21-gun salute to my grandmother. It was a big thing.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And if you've been to Arlington, you know that one of the key messages there is that the people who served America and the army served the kingdom of God, served Jesus. That is what they did. They served, and they may have died serving heaven [laughs] effectively. And so what that means is this is one of the holiest sites for Christian nationalism. This is one of the places where you go to be reassured with some of the highest level, like some of the world's greatest pomp and circumstance. The world's most convincing showing of pageantry and religious activity that the United States Army and the people who died serving it are also serving God, which is, you can't get more Christian nationalist than that.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Which is also why we have talked about Christian nationalism, actually far more common than people think it is [laughs]. It is absolutely normal in how we talk about the military. So what I think happened here with Trump is that because what I believe about Trump is that he's a conman to the core. He is pure... he's like self-interest incarnate [laughs]. He is out to promote Donald Trump and nothing more, and nobody more than that.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: I think he forgot that his self-interest can actually diverge from Christian nationalism [laughs]. I think that he forgot that he can step on his people's toes in a way that he doesn't want to. And he's basically going to look out for where those things diverge in future in order to not have this happen again. Because he's just there doing what he does, which is promoting himself anytime, anywhere at all costs. And he forgot that one of the things that he harnesses, which is Christian nationalism, is not actually something that he believes in, and so he can misfire [laughs]. The irony to me is that I want to gain enough power to do anything and not be held accountable for it to better myself in my own position, is a pretty good summary of how kind of the operating principle of the US military in our foreign policy has been for so long.So it's actually, it's like [laughs], it's two entities, a former president and the US military kind of clashing in their basically excuse making for their own unaccountability and their own sin. Which is how I view the Christian nationalism of a place like Arlington. What I just said Jonathan, is [laughs] blasphemy to a [laughs] lot of the people that I probably, to some people that I know personally. So I will just acknowledge that. But that is what I believe, and I think is true to the Bible. So hopefully you can at least give me that credit [Jonathan laughs]. Jonathan, boy, did I just talk for a long time. I'm sorry. I actually had in the outline that I wanted to ask you first what your thoughts were before I went on my rant, and I just couldn't help myself. So, [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Well, Sy, I mean…Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan, what are your thoughts?Jonathan Walton: I think one, I just appreciated the explanation of the closeness, why it's still open for you. Because I think when I was writing Twelve Lies, I wrote about the military, and I wanted to say, “Oh, they're only going to these types of communities to get people.” That would've been my hypothesis or was my hypothesis, but the research proved different.Sy Hoekstra: And when you say that, you specifically mean exploiting like poor Black and Brown neighborhoods?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You're saying like, “We'll get you into college, we'll give you benefits, et cetera, if you come fight and die for us.”Jonathan Walton: Exactly. And so…Sy Hoekstra: Potentially die for us.Jonathan Walton: Right, there's this exchange that's gonna happen for your body. Whether alive or dead, there will be benefits and resources for you or your loved ones. And so I went in with that lens, but what my research showed me was that the majority of people who serve in the military are family. Their parents were in it, their grandparents were in it, their cousin was in it. It's actually like only about two percent of the United States population is affiliated with the military. We're recruiting from the same groups of people. And this would also be true for law enforcement. People who were in it essentially raise their children and bless and send them into it as well as most often. It's not actually about income.The income, if I remember correctly, was between 50 to 70 thousand dollars a year in a household, which in a rural area is at the time, 10 years ago, felt like a living wage. And so that reality was also something that's interesting for me. So when Trump came out against Mark Milley, when Mark Milley challenged him to say, “Hey, you will not use me, quote- unquote, the military, as a prop in your racism, standing in front of St. John's church holding that Bible up,” which was literally the distorted cover of our book, our anthology, because these things were happening. When he insulted John McCain, that was a moment where the military and I think those who are beholden to Christian nationalism tried to speak up. Tried to say, “Hey, we won't do this.” But then the ball continued down the road.I don't know what the fallout of the Arlington stuff will be, but I do know based on Up First the NPR podcast this morning in the morning that we're recording September the seventh, they said the military and the employees actually let this go. But the reason they brought it back up was because Trump got on Truth Social , used platform and stature to say, “This did not happen. There was no altercation. This person had a mental health episode.” And when you go into that, that's where I think the, “We will not be disrespected” thing kind of came up. Like what do you mean? No, we're gonna talk about this and we're gonna name that. You will not desecrate this holy site. Holy in holy site of Christian nationalism, as you were saying.So I hope that there are more people that are offended, because I think that if we allow ourselves to be offended, to be bothered, to be uncomfortable, then maybe there will be some movement. Because I think you're absolutely right. He is, you said self-interest incarnate. I think that is a great quote [laughs].Trump Cheapened the Spiritual Cost People Pay to Be in the MilitaryJonathan Walton: What's painful to me, so I too have, my father was in Vietnam. My brother was in the Navy, my uncle was in the Army. My other uncles were in Vietnam. And Brodnax, the town where I'm from, has many gravestones from Vietnam and Korea. And so what is fascinating to me is the level of belief that you have to have to commit acts of atrocity or commit acts of violence. Like Shane Claiborne would say, we were not made to kill people, you have to be taught to do that.And I am in no way condemning a soldier or a person who's in military service, who's listening. That's not what I'm saying. I'm observing, it costs us something to do these things. And I think the thing that Trump did was cheapen the cost that many, many, many thousands of people have paid for something that they thought was a collective interest blessed by God when Trump said, “No, you are a pawn in my game. And I will use you for my benefit.” Now you again, you will have people that say that's what's happening anyway. Trump is just doing in like what everybody else does behind closed doors. But I think that tension that he articulates or brings up for us, I hope it's allowed to rise to the surface, and then we can have a conversation about the cost.Like the silent war in the military right now is that even soldiers who have not seen active duty are committing suicide. I hope it brings to the surface the, like my dad, Agent Orange ruined some of his life. They're still figuring out what the effects of that were. You have people who are saying they support troops in one hand, but then voting against resources and benefits for them in the other hand, when the legislation comes up. Lauren Boebert did that yesterday. I hope that the perceived belovedness of our veterans and military versus the reality of how they're exploited and taken advantage of and dismissed and cast aside, we would actually acknowledge that and then do real work to ensure that they don't end up on the street.They don't end up stuck on painkillers. They do get the medical resources they need. They do get the mental health support that they need. Their families do get the resources that they need on and off-base and not just a discount at the PX. If that could be the conversation because of this, then I'd be very glad.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Just one more thing you said there. You said lots of people use the military as pawns and it's true. Or like props for their campaigns. It is just another one of those things about Trump where he will just do what everybody else did, but he'll turn it up to 11 [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yeah, no, yeah. It's true.Sy Hoekstra: Everybody else, every politician, if they have a military background, if their family does, if they can visit a military site or whatever, they do it all the time. And even if their love for the military or for America is real, it is also true that they use them for their campaigns [laughs]. Use them to prop up. That has been… since we elected George Washington, the general of the Continental Army, has been true [laughter]. Right?Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So Trump is just the one who says, “Whatever your rules of decorum are, I'm going to break them.” And in most cases, that is actually his appeal. “Yes. I break rules of decorum and there's no consequences. And that's because these elitist can't tell me what to do and we need to take back power.Jonathan Walton: Oh Lord have mercy, Jesus [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: You need someone like me who can just break through all this nonsense.” You know what I mean?Jonathan Walton: Right. Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: That's usually his appeal. And in this case, it just happened to be that he crossed the wrong line for some people. I'm sure there's a lot of people who probably don't care [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. It may not wrangle a lot of people, but I hope it wrangles the right people.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And him stretching out this poop that he stepped on and not wiping it off his foot and continue his campaign, I hope that roils people. He is a disrespectful person.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And for Christians, literally James chapter four, it's that God opposes the proud. We are called to be humble people, and so I pray for Trump. I pray for his family. Not that he would win an election and all those things, but literally that they would come to know Jesus. Literally that they would know the freedom in him. Literally, that they would be able to experience the freedom that money cannot purchase and privilege cannot provide for you. And so I say all these things in hopes that everyone who is watching what happens is disquieted because we should not be comfortable with what's happening. Especially as followers of Jesus [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Amen to that Jonathan. Amen.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I think we'll wrap it up there. Just as a reminder, as we finish, please again, go to KTFPress.com, get that newsletter and sign up as a paid subscriber to support everything that we do. We're centering and elevating marginalized voices. We're helping people seek Jesus in their discipleship and in their politics. We really do need some more support than we have right now if we're gonna make this sustainable kind of past this election season. So please do come and sign up as a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com. Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast Art is by Robyn Burgess, transcripts by Joyce Ambale, editing by Multitude Productions. I am the producer along with our lovely paid subscribers. Thank you so much for joining us, and we will see you in two weeks.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Give me one second. One moment. I'm gonna get the name right so that you don't have to go edit this later [Sy laughs]. … So yes, we… Robert Mohler. The—Richard Mohler. Al Mohler. That's his name [Sy laughs]. Al Mohler [laughs]. It says R dot Albert Mohler. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

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A New Sustainable CultureThrough the rise in pop culture, climate change awareness has increasingly been integrated into the entertainment industry. Particularly in the Black community, multimedia cultural campaigns are used to increase interest in environmental movements with the use of light-hearted, fun content. Artists, musicians, and influencers are leveraging their platforms to highlight the impacts of climate change and promote sustainable practices, which, in turn, provides easily accessible resources and information to marginalized communities that empower them to participate in the fight against climate change. Black Communities and Environmental JusticePopulations of color face disproportionate energy burdens caused by climate change. A study conducted by Rice University found that Black communities were more prone to live in vulnerable areas, a generational problem caused by the history of Black gentrification. Even now in 2024, Black communities in Georgia are forced to pay higher electricity bills, despite having lower rates compared to other states, due to old and inefficient household systems. According to the National Black Environmental Justice Networks, African Americans were also found to breathe in 56% more pollution than they cause, whereas their White counterparts breathe in 17% less pollution than generated. African Americans are also 75% more likely than White Americans to live in polluted communities, leading to 13.4% of African American children suffering from asthma, compared to 7.3% of White children. Starting in the 1970s, some black musicians included environmental themes in their productions. Artist Marvin Gaye released “Mercy Mercy Me (The Ecology)” to tackle discussions about oil spills and mercury waste; funk group Earth, Wind, & Fire released “Burnin' Bush” to bring awareness about the global destruction of Mother Earth. Those themes continue today in  music produced by Black artists, such as in the popular single “Feels Like Summer” by Childish Gambino, which conveys worries about uncertain impacts caused by global warming. Additionally, artists such as SZA have partnered with brands to promote sustainable merchandise, encouraging a societal paradigm to rely on eco-friendly products. Representation and EducationWith more than 50% of the world's population active on social media, people are continuously exposed to the influx of information circulated by entertainment. Through the entertainment industry, climate news has become increasingly accessible and engaging, allowing communities to educate themselves on sustainability and mobilize action. Although hip-hop and rap were once considered controversial music genres due to themes of violence, drugs, and misogyny, there is a growing effort to utilize the storytelling aptitude of these genres for social and environmental commentary. Artists use rhymes and flow in hip-hop and rap to effectively share the living conditions, natural disasters, and climate injustice that people face. This empowerment of entertainment has motivated marginalized people to strengthen their community bonds and collaborate in fighting against climate change. The widespread influence of entertainment is fostering inspiration for a new culture promoting climate equity and agency, as well as the normalization of environmentalism in society.  Who are the co-founders of Klean Energy Kulture?Corey Dennard and Michael Hawthorne Jr. (Akachè Marcino) are the co-founders of Klean Energy Kulture, a non-profit environmental entertainment company. Corey Dennard, popularly known as Mr. Hanky, is a hit producer who has worked with top charting artists, including Snoop Dog, Usher, and Soulja Boy. Michael Hawthorne Jr., also known as Akachè Marcino, is an environmentalist and political organizer. Hawthorne has worked on Barack Obama's first presidential campaign and Sierra Club's Beyond Coal Campaign. Together, they lead Black communities towards climate resiliency through campaigning for clean energy.Further ReadingCanary Media: This Atlanta duo has a theory to drive climate action: Make it coolMedium: How Michael Hawthorne Jr Of Klean Energy Kulture Is Helping to Promote Sustainability and Climate JusticeAmerican Lung Association: Disparities in the Impact of Air PollutionAtmos: Composing Climate Change: The Radical Legacy of Black MusiciansClimate Reality Project: Environmental RacismFor a transcript of this episode, please visit https://climatebreak.org/promoting-clean-energy-through-pop-culture-with-klean-energy-kulture-co-founders-michael-hawthorne-jr-and-corey-dennard/.

Author and journalist Sarah Smarsh has spent the last decade dedicating herself to correcting stereotypes, misinformation, and prejudice around the lives and beliefs of rural, working-class White Americans. She speaks from experience, as the daughter of two poor Kansas residents. Now, she's collected that decade of writing in her new book, Bone of the Bone: Essays on America by a Daughter of the Working Class, out tomorrow. Smarsh joins us to discuss as part of our election series, Get Po-LIT-ical. Tonight at 7 pm, she will be speaking at the Strand.

Today, our episode's all about discipleship around political engagement, based on a series of Bible studies Jonathan and his team at his real job recently created for this election season and beyond. Some points we hit:-        Why it is essential for our political action to understand  we were not created for this world-        Why followers of Jesus won't overemphasize the importance of political victories and losses-        The reality that we are all connected to each other and God desires everyone's political liberation-        And, after that discussion, we dive into a recommendation from one of our recent newsletters on the fallout from Israel's torture of Hamas operativesCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscript Introduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Jonathan Walton: If we are clear-eyed about the brokenness of the world, I would love for us to be as clear-eyed about the bigness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't think our concept of sin and our concept of redemption is actually mature enough to deal with the problems of the world.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: And I'm Sy Hoekstra. I'm so excited about what we're gonna be talking about today. We have concluded our series of interviews with authors from the anthology that we published in 2020 about Christianity and politics in the era of Trump. For the next several five or six episodes until the election, you will be hearing more from the two of us. We'll probably have a couple more interviews, but it will not be from those authors. But today, we are jumping into something that I think is very core to what we do at KTF Press. We're talking about political discipleship and how the ways that some stuff that we maybe in some churches relegate to the realm of personal salvation, like the incarnation and the death and resurrection of Jesus, actually have a whole lot to say about how we engage politically. But before we get to all of that, Jonathan.Jonathan Walton: Remember, if you like what you hear and what you read from KTF Press, and would like for it to continue beyond this election season, please go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber and encourage your friends to subscribe as well. We've got a ways to go if we're gonna have enough people to sustain this work, but we believe this work is valuable for us and for you, and so we hope that you do too. Go to KTFPress.com, that'll get you the bonus episodes of this show, access to monthly Zoom chats with the two of us and more, but only if you are subscribed. So again, go to KTFPress.com, subscribe today.The Bible Studies Jonathan's Team Created about Christian Political EngagementSy Hoekstra: All right. So Jonathan, this conversation is actually coming from some work that you are doing in your regular job with InterVarsity. First of all, remind people what you do with InterVarsity [laughter], and then tell people about these resources that you've produced and kind of what the goal of them is.Jonathan Walton: So I'm a Senior Resource Specialist with InterVarsity. And what that looks like is when there are some significant problems, then those things get sent up to the discipleship and leadership team to think about, and one of the things in our sandbox is political discipleship. And so for the last six months, we've been working on a curriculum that folks will be able to use to not just see and seek Jesus during this election season, but actually be formed into people who can see Jesus on the seat in our image as a seat of a stool with three legs, and on the seat. The Lord over our feelings, over our thoughts, over our actions, is Jesus. And so this five part Bible study really leans into that and prayerfully will push people to make that decision, to say, “Oh yes, if I'm a follower of Jesus, then my orthopathy, my orthodoxy and my orthopraxy will be under the Lordship of Jesus.”Sy Hoekstra: You just said three big words. I think a lot of people know that orthodoxy kind of means right belief, and orthopraxy kind of means right practiceJonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: Orthopathy, what does that mean?Jonathan Walton: Orthopathy, which most of us function on is our feelings and passions. So what does it look like for us to actually say, “I feel uncomfortable, I feel afraid, I feel sad.” And instead of acting out of that feeling and then forming a theology that justifies our actions that were based on our feelings of fear or anxiety or discomfort or loss of control, we actually said, “Oh, I feel afraid of this,” or “I feel uncomfortable about this, but I can actually put that fear, that discomfort, that anger, under the seat of Jesus,” and be able to have our thoughts and actions be in line with the kingdom of God, and not just in line with our deepest wounds or whims.Sy Hoekstra: Okay, so that is some helpful context. You have created these Bible studies as part of your job as a resource developer, and we will have links to those Bible studies that are available for free online. So if you wanna do a five session Bible study with a small group or whatever, you can go get Jonathan's stuff and talk about politics with your small group, which I think everybody should be doing right now [laughter], at least if you live in the United States. Not everybody that listens to the show is in the United States, but for all the Americans, go do that, please. Oh, and actually, sorry you didn't write these. You were part of the team that developed these.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: The actual writing was done by other people, but you were very involved in the process.We Were Not Created for This World, and That Affects Our PoliticsSy Hoekstra: So let's get into one of the main ideas here, which I think is, let's talk about some of the implications of the idea that we were not created for the world that we live in. This is kind of a big deal I think, in your thinking, and I would like you to tell us what, first of all, what kind of world were we created for, and then what does that imply for our politics?We Were Created for a World Where Everything Existed in HarmonyJonathan Walton: One of the things that gets lost in most of our theology about the quote- unquote, fall is that we don't engage as much with what the world could have looked like if we had not, quote- unquote, fallen. And so I like to think about every possible thing in the world that is broken and not working well, what if it had been working just fine? So let's imagine for a moment that work, like Adam and Eve in the Garden doing the stuff, was good. Like work was good. Let's imagine for a moment that a man never blamed the problem on a woman, and a woman never blamed the problem on the man. Let's imagine a world free of shame, jealousy, deceit and blaming. Let's lean into that slim window in Scripture and that slim window and stories that were passed down for generations, and generations where there was no deceit.We could know one another and be known. We could forgive, because I don't imagine that no one got hurt, but I imagine though, is people were quick to forgive and quick to ask for forgiveness. To be able to live in harmony with the world, that includes that big Shalom theology, where there's peace in me, there's peace between me and others, there's peace between me and creation, there's peace between me and God. There's reconciliation, there's Shalom there. And so since we do not have that world, the world that we currently live in is one that we will have constant dissonance with.We Must Be People Who Rejoice When Empires FallJonathan Walton: So fast forward all the way to Revelation 18,19, and 20, when quote unquote, Babylon, or the Empire is destroyed.And there are people that are weeping over Babylon, and there are people that are rejoicing that Babylon has been destroyed. Followers of Jesus need to be in the camp that says we are rejoicing that Babylon is destroyed. Hallelujah, salvation and glory be unto our God. If we are those people that say, “Ah, you know what? We're so sad that all the spices and all the products and all the slaves are no longer being brought to our shores to serve us,” then you suffer under the judgment of God. The judgment of God says these systems are unjust. A lot of followers of Jesus and other folks don't like to talk about the judgment of God, but I will be honest, I am totally fine talking about the judgment of God when talking about destroying unjust systems and structures in the world [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Like Jesus, let that come as quickly as possible. So in Amos via Martin Luther King, how most people recognize it, let justice roll down like a mighty stream. That's what we are talking about. When these systems of injustice and violence are washed away. We were not made to be exploited or to exploit other people. We were not made to dominate, destroy, rule and violate. That's not what it is. And so that's what I mean when we say we should have dissonance with this world that we are in because we were not made for this nonsense that we experience regularly.Sy Hoekstra: And then our politics should reflect that dissonance.We Should Not Be Seduced by ColonialismJonathan Walton: Yes. Our politics should reflect that dissonance, and what we should not do is be seduced by coloniality. And here's what I mean by that. Aníbal Quijano, who was a Peruvian sociologist and scholar on coloniality, talked about the seduction of European colonialism, such as that, even though you take colonialism away, we cannot imagine ourselves independent of that colonized structure being in place. And so if we look around the world, the sun never set on the British Empire in that way, there are entire people groups including Black people in the United States, who it's very difficult to imagine life outside of the stratified, segregated society that we find ourselves in.And so for me, I think when we think about our political systems, and we talked about this before on the podcast, one of the things we need a radical revolution of is imagination. Like to be able to imagine a different way of share, like mutual aid, reciprocity. Being able to say, “You know, what? What if I'm not a wage earner in a society, I am still valuable.” Sy, you've talked about this in your essays about disability. Like, what would it look like for us not to see the CEO and the kid with down syndrome as equally valuable for God, even though one of them contributes more to the GDP, like we need to lean into that. And so when we make decisions in politics, we actually need to wrestle with that dissonance as opposed to trying to impose a perfect will in an imperfect world, because it will not exist or come to pass.We Should Always Be Unsatisfied with Political Outcomes, and Be Aware We Don't Control ThemSy Hoekstra: Yeah. So I think one of the things that you and I have talked about that is basically how we will almost always be unsatisfied with the decisions and the activity that we engage in in politics.Jonathan Walton: Yes, and that is okay [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, exactly. Right. That's part of it. You should be that way, is what we're saying.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You shouldn't be someone who votes wholeheartedly like, what I'm rejecting right now is people who are just like, “Yes, Trump is God's man. We're with him 100 percent. He's gonna do all the stuff we need him to do.” There isn't really a Christian equivalent to that on the left, or I would reject that as well, if anyone was saying that same thing with that same level of fervor about Kamala Harris [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: But well, we'll talk about how there is still some idolatry on the left, but we'll get into that nuance in a second. I just want to emphasize this point, that it's the lack of satisfaction with our votes and the lack of satisfaction with outcomes of activism isn't just what you should expect, it's reflecting a reality in a good way [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: That you are not… you know what I mean? You're always going to feel that tension because you were made to be loved and treated with justice and kindness and generosity and to do the same for others, and that is fundamentally not how our system ever works.Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: We will know that we don't have control over the systems that we have. We should know that [laughs]. We should go into our political engagement with that in the front of our minds, that we don't control the outcomes, and we shouldn't be surprised when they don't come out exactly the way we want them to. But again, when we were talking about this, another thing you pointed out was we also don't have control over God and how God affects the outcomes that God wants to affect [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: We don't know how that's going to happen. So a political loss for us does not necessarily mean anything about God or God's plans, right?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So that is kind of the hopeful other side of that coin that I was just talking about. And that doesn't mean by the way, that we don't make clear decisions in certain contexts and be like, “No, this person is absolutely better than this person.” I have no problem saying that. You know what I mean? I feel like sometimes when you talk about being a citizen of the kingdom, there's a lot of like, especially White Christians, who will say that kind of means that we should never really judge anybody's choices at all [laughter], and I fully disagree with that [laughs], because in a given context, someone can be much better than somebody else. They're just not perfect.We Should Want to Make Things Better in Small Ways and Do as Little Harm as PossibleJonathan Walton: Well, the only other thing I'll say, and this actually may apply to later questions in the conversation as well. But I had a conversation, I was one of the keynote speakers for the Community Boost nonprofit leaders conference this week. And one of the speakers, she was on the panel I was moderating, her name is Jennifer Jones Austin. She's the Executive Director of the Federation of Protestant Welfare organizations in New York City.Sy Hoekstra: Gotcha.Jonathan Walton: She used to have a position in corrections in New York City as an advocate [laughs]. She said, “It is my job in this space,” holding her faith in all these things she possibly can, she said “This system is toxic, it's broken, it is terrible, and in so much as I can, I will prevent all harm that I can. And if I also could do incrementally better, then I will do that, knowing full well that this is not the kingdom of God, and I will be wholly dissatisfied with all the things, even the progress, quote- unquote, progress that I'm able to make.” And I think that is a sobering embrace of the realities of where we stand as followers of Jesus who are able to and in so far as we are willing to actually participate in the change of the systems and structures that we are in.So that's Priscilla with education. She is going to [laughs], in Jesus name, do as little harm as she possibly can and make as much progress, quote- unquote, progress as she possibly can.Sy Hoekstra: This is your wife, who's the principal of a school for people who don't know.Jonathan Walton: Yes, and I've recognized also that this is me within InterVarsity, an evangelical organization in the United States that fully participates in the system of this country. Like philanthropy is broken, giving is broken. We all know these systems will not usher in the kingdom of God. At the same time, we are called to participate and reflect the kingdom of God as best as we can. And so I think as we vote, as we enter in, as you were saying, we do not have control over the system, we do not have control over God, but we do control if we are obedient to him and faithfully wrestle with what it looks like to follow him in context. Because, as Munther Isaac, Palestinian theologian, prophet, amazing person said, a theology without context is irrelevant, and we are doing our best to live out of theology in our context.Sy Hoekstra: Both of us saw him speak last week, or I guess when you're hearing this, it'll be two weeks ago at Riverside Church, and it was incredible. And one or two of the things Jonathan has said so far, are certainly inspired by Reverend Isaac. If you look at our newsletter from the 23rd you can watch the entire talk on YouTube. It's incredible. I really suggest everyone does it. When Jonathan says he's a prophet, that's not…Jonathan Walton: Oh, I'm not joking. Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: It's not an exaggeration. It's like the word prophet is something that gets thrown around a lot, and it can be grandiose when you apply to certain people. This man fits the bill [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Why Christians Shouldn't Overemphasize Political Wins and LossesSy Hoekstra: Okay, so let's get into another point that we were talking about that I think is important when it comes to political discipleship, especially in this moment of heightened tension in the election. Which is there are so many ways that understanding yourself as a citizen of the kingdom of God makes you less likely to overemphasize political victories and losses. And you can err to one side in the way that Trump does, which is what I was talking about before, or the way that Trump supporters do, where they can say, “Trump being elected will basically be our political salvation [laughs]. We will be fine. Our power will be given back to us the way that we deserve, our enemies shall be defeated,” etcetera, etcetera.But like I also said, there are ways that the left does this and there are ways that the right does this when it's not Trump and we're not in a sort of cult of personality situation. So can you talk to us about what overemphasizing political victories and losses looks like, and why understanding the kingdom helps you avoid doing that, making that mistake?Our Hope Is Not in Political Victories or Material ProsperityJonathan Walton: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the way the right predominantly does this is using salvific language like, “We are going to save you.” And so there's this identification alliance with right wing rapture theology that says, we just need to be redeemed from the world or going back to something that is more holy, just, beautiful, righteous and good. Usually for White evangelicals, that's around 1958. 1958 was the peak of White evangelical and White American leadership and ownership of all these different things in the United States. And so that reality that many people in the current day White evangelical movement are trying to get back to. 1958 also signals what the left tries to do.1958 was the advent of the civil rights movement coming into the mainstream of the United States when Martin Luther King wrote, when White evangelicals in the United States had to contend with Martin Luther King. So Jerry Falwell writing, segregation or not, like which is it, and then doubling down on segregation. But from 1958 you can begin to see this surging of the rights of women being talked about, the rights of people of color being talked about. Then you get into quote- unquote, the sexual revolution, feminist revolution of the 70s and 80s, like music changing into a way that there's television, things to be broadcast. Folks being shocked that the people they listen to on the radio are people of color, like you start to get this change [laughs].And so what the right says is salvation, the left says is progress. And so pastors and people who push towards more progressivism and politicians who don't read in context like to pull out that piece when Martin Luther King says, the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. We take that out, and basically what that does is a soft baptism of generational superiority. Meaning that I'm better than the last generation, and the generation after me will be better, when scripture does not say that. Ecclesiastes says there's nothing new under the sun. There have always been people fighting against slavery, oppression, abuse and violence, and there have always been people who are trying to impose those systems, whether they be the Roman government or the American government or the Spartans or the Cretans, it doesn't matter who it is.This has always been the same argument and fight. The Nazis before, the Americans today, Israelis one day, slaveholders another day, Palestinians one day, enslaved Africans another day. The reality is this has always been going back and forth. The invitation has always been the same, to follow Jesus. That's the invitation. There isn't a like, “Man, you know what? In 1950, it was really bad.” That's what progressives would say, “But we've come a long way, and we're continuing forward, onward and upward.” And then conservatives would say, “Oh, man, you know it used to be this way. Let me go back to my little town and…” but both of those are salvation narratives that actually don't leave us saved. They don't. Jesus is the only way.They don't leave us saved, because the salvation of Jesus is ultimate and all encompassing at once. The quote- unquote, safety that moral progressivism or conservatism offers us is for a few, for moments in time. The only thing in my estimation, as an individual that has read a little bit and prayed a lot is the only thing that has been as pervasive and adopted by so many people is colonialism. The idea of White supremacy, the idea that we need to exploit and violate, the idea that we need to extract as much as possible and we deserve to accumulate at an unfettered pace, that is pervasive across cultures, backgrounds and narratives. That has been carried everywhere even more so than the gospel.And so I would hope that the salvation of all things through Christ would be as comprehensive and fierce as the salvation through works. So it's life, liberty and pursuit of property slash our own comfort equals happiness, or take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me, they are fundamentally opposed to each other.Sy Hoekstra: That was good and deep, and I love it. Let me drill down for a second on the progressivism, because I think some people would hear you say, and you've explained this a little bit, but I mean, some people hear you say, things haven't gotten better, or things took off in some fundamental and helpful way in the 60s, that that's not something that we should think of as salvation. And they might kind of go, “What does he mean by that? I don't know. That's a little…” Because I know you are saying things have gotten better.Jonathan Walton: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: Like, obviously, there are people who materially did a whole lot better [laughs] after the Civil Rights Movement.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Absolutely. Right.Sy Hoekstra: But what you are saying is, when you are clear-eyed about the amount of harm that the hierarchies and systems of oppression do in this country globally, there are so many things to be concerned about and so many things to deeply lament that the true and good and incredible thing that Black people can vote now [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, me and you can have this conversation [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, all those kinds of things. Those things are incredible and should be celebrated, and there are just so many other things that are so wrong and terrible.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You're just being clear-eyed about the world as it is.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Because you can do that, because you're not looking toward a narrative of progressivism to assure you that you are okay.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes. The fundamental container that you and I find ourselves in has improved. That's true.Sy Hoekstra: You and I, like meaning literally you and I.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, me and you. Literally, Sy Hoekstra and Jonathan Walton, the container that we find ourselves in has improved since the lives of our parents. My momma was not born with all of her rights, I was born with all of mine, to an extent in this country. That container has gotten better. The container is still on this side of heaven, which means it's incomplete.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So can I celebrate, and I do celebrate, the reality that I could go to a bank and get a mortgage and it would be illegal if they discriminated against me and my wife for being people of color, that is awesome. I can celebrate the fact that my wife can get a credit card in her own name, and my daughters will be able to as well. That was something that was illegal. go look it up. I appreciate that. At the same time, let me not be seduced to think that this is the container I was made for because I wasn't. I was made for Genesis 1.Sy Hoekstra: Or seduced into a kind of softer, subtler idolatry of America.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Or the West, or the societies that we live in, or wealth, or whatever it is that you think has made things more comfortable for you.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Good Political Fruit that Comes with Putting Hope in JesusSy Hoekstra: The reason I spent so much time on that is it's a complicated idea, but I think it's important for people to understand, because it really does free you from the problems that inevitably come when you sort of think, let's say Harris gets elected. We're just like, “Oh, good. We staved off Trump, we beat back fascism. We defeated it, hooray.” [laughs] It stops you from looking at the long history of America and saying no, fascism, authoritarianism, like real oppression of people is a normal part of the DNA of this country, and will continue to come back, and we need to continue to be ready to fight it all the time.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: It does not ever go away, and if you want to sit in comfort and say, “Good, we finally did it,” or “I can rest now,” you can't. You're being seduced into something that is not true [laughter]. And also, being clear-eyed in this way also stops you from doing something that people complain about progressives doing all the time, which is show up to your door every four years or every two years, and ask for your vote, and then not do anything to actually fight the oppression that you're under on a daily basis once they're elected [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: If you're clear-eyed in this way, you can fight for people's flourishing 365 days a year…Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: …and every year. What I'm just doing now is talking about some of the good fruit that comes from letting go of these sort of soft political idols that sometimes people have. Because, I think… And the reason I say soft political idols, they're just political idols, but I think people look at the obviousness and the brazenness of the way that people idolize Trump and Christian power in America, and they think, “I'm not doing that in any similar way,” and a lot of us actually are.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So that's why I'm harping on this.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And two sentences that I hope will help people as well, is that the reason we're saying this too is because what will drive you is actually hope in the right stuff, as opposed to ending up with putting, literally, for me, like my hope in Obama. I remember the posters, like I was excited.Sy Hoekstra: Do you remember that music video?Jonathan Walton: Which one? There were many.Sy Hoekstra: The “Yes We Can” music video.Jonathan Walton: Oh, yes, yes, yes. I do remember that.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs]. I remember that in particular, I remember you being so excited and emotional about that video, and then later coming back to me and being like, “I should not have cared about that video that much,” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. But man, it is attractive. Like Lil Jon at the DNC right now is there to seduce a certain group of people [Sy laughs]. And Kid Rock is just, let's swap out Kid Rock. Kid Rock was at the RNC. We have to engage, like you said, clear-eyed, so we know what to put our hope in. Because the gospel is a hope that does not disappoint.What Is God's Good News about Politics, and How Can We Apply It to Our Lives?Sy Hoekstra: Amen to that, Jonathan [Jonathan laughs]. But let's talk about the hope that does not disappoint, because I think the stuff that we've been talking about, if you just stopped there would be a little bit, I don't know, it can be a little bit depressing. If you don't already have this perspective [laughs] it's like, it can be hard.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: It can be hard to deal with being clear-eyed about the brokenness of the world, it's not an easy thing to do [Jonathan laughs]. So let's talk about what actually is the good news about politics that you are trying to get people to see through, through these Bible studies and through this kind of work that you're doing.Question Your Assumptions, and Understand the Connectedness of All PeopleJonathan Walton: Yeah. I mean to what you just said, if we are clear-eyed about the brokenness of the world, I would love for us to be as clear-eyed about the bigness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't think our concept of sin and our concept of redemption is actually mature enough to deal with the problems of the world. And so I think that one, the first session is just what are our starting points? Most of us have been cultured into political discipleship, we've never actually consciously thought about it. And so that's the first part, just where are our starting points? Then we get into the reality that the theology of the kingdom of God, and the theology that we are all made in God's image is a political reality.If I believe that I am made in the image of God, and every single person around me is made in the image of God, then that has political implications, because my flourishing and their suffering, or my suffering and their flourishing, they are actually intertwined. If I actually live out that theology, when they bleed, I bleed, when I bleed, they bleed. That's why the command to mourn with those who mourn is not, it shouldn't be far off, because I'm mourning my own human family, or I'm rejoicing with my own human family. And so that first study gets into that, and then we have, each study has a real-life story, and each study has a testimony about how these things have been applied or wrestled with in the current day.Making Informed Decisions about Whether We Want to Seek God's LiberationAnd so when we get into the choices that the Israelites made in Samuel, they wanted a king. Wrestling with that, oh snap, the Israelites literally said to the Prophet Samuel, we want to be like everybody else.Sy Hoekstra: And sorry, just really quickly for people who are unfamiliar, there's a moment in the book of 2 Samuel, I think, where Israel goes from saying, “We don't want to just be this people of God who kind of live in this promised land and follow these instructions that God gave us, we want to have a king,” which was not part of like God's plan for their society, “The way that all the societies around us have a king, so that we can have kind of similar power and influence the way that they do.”Jonathan Walton: Exactly. And so when Samuel responds, he says, “Your king will be exploitative. Your king will violate. Your king will take your kids. Your king will do all these things.” And they say, “Yes, sign us up.” And so we need to have conversations about what will actually happen when we say, “Yes, we do want this,” instead of what God intends. And then make concrete decisions about, do we actually want that, and what are the implications? And then if we do decide to follow Jesus, then what does he do and what is his response. When Jesus shows up and says, “I am the Messiah,” out of Isaiah, chapter 61 pulled into Luke chapter 4, the initial sermon is, “I have come to set the oppressed free, proclaim sight to the blind, proclaim freedom for the captives.”He did not say, “I have come to convert you to a certain political ideology, a certain political party or platform.” He didn't say that because he literally says, the kingdom of God is not of this world. And so how do we see that as good news as followers of Jesus? And do we see that as good news in the context we're in today? And then finally, if we do see that as good news, how do we partner with God to actually participate as followers of Jesus in seeking the shalom of all the people around us? Because we do live as followers of Jesus in exile. Now, we are different from the Israelites because, friends, we are not disempowered as Americans.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: I have an American passport, which puts me in a fundamentally different political bracket than my brothers and sisters who are undocumented, than my human family that suffers under drone strikes. It's different. But at the same time, I can hold fast to the reality that how can I steward my power, my influence, my resources, towards the flourishing of all people, not just myself, which is resisting the gospel of Babylon. And so we have, one of my favorite people in the world is Connie Anderson, and she talks about how she was one of those White women in a midwestern state who had no idea who she was voting for and why. But then she goes to a board meeting at the invitation of someone to really get involved in local politics, and she realized the person that she was voting for had dementia, and he was on the city council voting for things, arguing for it in one minute, and then some time would pass, arguing against it in another minute.And then when someone said, “Hey, didn't you just say the opposite?” Then shout at them, “Don't try to tell me what I think.” And she said, “The only reason I voted for this person was because I recognized their name.” And she began to get involved, and now she leads workshops on anti-racism, trying to help White people do the work of deconstruction, not deconstruction of their faith, but a deconstruction of the White supremacy in their lives and how they can partner with God towards more redemptive things. And she is doing the good hard work of politics, and not politics from a lens of this world would be better if we get the right person in power, but this world will be better and transformative when Jesus is in power.And so how do I partner with him to reflect his kingdom in the system and structures that I have influence and power over? And besides a lot of the work that we do with KTF, this is probably the thing with InterVarsity that I am most proud of. So I sincerely hope that folks will grab it.We Need to Revolutionize Our ImaginationSy Hoekstra: Absolutely. Go check it out. Thank you for sharing the wisdom from it. And I especially want to emphasize what you said about, what did you say about our imagination? You said change or, the verb I can't remember [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Oh, bring a revolution in our imagination [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, there you go. That's what you said. I knew it was good [Jonathan laughs]. That is something that I am particularly passionate about, and kind of dovetails into why I spend so much time reading speculative fiction, like sci-fi and fantasy and everything [laughs], because… and thinking about how the people who write those books affect the worlds that we imagine too. That may seem like a weird, random turn into another subject to some people, but it is the way that I exercise my imagination, and I find a lot of the way that God talks to me in that work [laughs]. Like in the ways that I think about how we can imagine really different worlds and other stories that we don't see here now.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: That to me, is extremely important, and I know that there have to be at least some of you who feel that way too.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: So [laughs] I know there are some avid fiction readers out there. Jonathan, we have a segment to get into.Which Tab Is Still Open? Israel's Horrifying Treatment of Palestinian DetaineesJonathan Walton: Yes. Yes, we've talked a lot, and we are still talking as we're going to get into our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, because this is something we're still talking about 10 months later, 76 years later, where we dive a little deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. So Sy, this one is yours, so tell us a little bit about it.Sy Hoekstra: It is mine, although I think I maybe originally got it from you. This is something that we have both been thinking and talking about a lot, so I will just summarize the story very quickly, and then we'll both talk about it for a while. So we're gonna be back on Israel and Palestine. Now, listen everything we just talked about is gonna affect this conversation that we're having now [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: But there have been some horrible whistleblower stories, and I will not get into the details. So hopefully we're avoiding the need for a content warning here. But some horrible whistleblower stories about some things going on, I believe you pronounce it, the Sde Teiman detention center in Israel, which is where basically they're keeping a lot of known or suspected Hamas operatives who attacked on October 7. The allegations are about basically physical and sexual torture, and that's all the detail that I will get into, being regularized and just a part of the culture at this particular detention center. So recently, after a lot of these reports, there were 10 IDF soldiers who were charged by military courts, or nine soldiers and one reservist who were charged by military courts with perpetrating one of these acts of violence.And what followed is something that's a little bit unimaginable to me, until I think about January 6th, which was a series of riots at this detention center of people literally trying to just charge into the detention center and take the IDF soldiers who have been charged and put in detention themselves, and just kidnap them out of the place, just like free them. And these rioters, there were a couple hundred of them. A lot of them were just regular people living in the area. But some of them were actual government administrative workers and some of them, a couple of them were actual members of the Israeli parliament who participated in this riot, and they did not succeed. Like the soldiers are still there.Two of them were let go eventually, meaning, the charges were dropped. Eight of them, the military is actually pursuing the charges against them. There has not been any punishment for any of these rioters [laughs]. Nothing's happened to them. There's been no legal consequences. There was another riot and another base, same thing, no real consequences. I was trying to see if maybe just like the American media wasn't reporting on it, but I used multiple large language models [laughter] to look into whether there were any stories about these rioters and what consequences they face, and it's really been nothing. The members of parliament are still just sitting in parliament.Some people who are not in the government, who are in the opposition parties have called for investigations, but nothing has happened. There were many statements made by different far-right government members of parliament that were in support of the rioters. One person in Benjamin Netanyahu's party, basically stood up in Parliament and said, “I do not care what these soldiers did to Hamas operatives, because anything done to Hamas operatives is legitimate, in my view.” Like there's just no limits. When we say that there's an apartheid in Israel, this highlights kind of what we're talking about, because there is sort of within Israel proper, there is, you can still make some arguments about this, but there is a lot of democratic representation and rights for people who live there.And then in the West Bank, since 1967 there's basically been martial law where a general is in charge and makes all the decisions on behalf of people who live there, with the exception of the Jewish settlers who live there, who still have all the rights, as though they lived in Israel proper. And so there's this kind of weird thing going on where even though this base is in Israel, it is under the jurisdiction of the military. So it's this kind of martial law, I don't know, running into Israel's law in a sort of way that's highlighting some divisions in Israel. Because obviously, there are a lot of people within Israel who are very concerned that this has happened, and that people are going completely unaccountable for it.I mean, some people are literally talking about, I don't think this is a mainstream idea, but there's some people talking about, what if a civil war breaks out in Israel, because there are people who are so against what has happened, but the ruling government coalition is just so in favor of continuing the war at all costs, they're now starting to fight with Lebanon. They may start to fight with Iran. So anyways, those are the basics of the story. Jonathan, what are your thoughts [laughs]?Privilege Marginalized Voices in Your Media So You Don't End UP Believing FalsehoodsJonathan Walton: If you are listening, you've made it this far in the podcast and all those things, I hope you would privilege Palestinian voices and the voices of Jewish activists in your media diet, so that you are not persuaded towards believing what is not true. The reality is Israel, not the people, but the state, is a settler colonial project, and much of this I'm gonna repeat from Munther and other people that I have learned from because I am now trying to privilege their voices. I remember, and I've said this on podcast before, my RA when I was 18 years old, who lived in the West Bank, arguing with a Zionist Jewish young man who lives in Brooklyn and had never been to the West Bank about what it looks like.So you're watching someone from a lived reality argue with someone downstream of propaganda. And so the exact same thing could be true of someone who lives in a segregated Black neighborhood trying to explain how law enforcement works to someone who has never actually dealt with law enforcement in the United States, or a man who is having a conversation with a woman about what it's like to have her rape kit submitted and then it never be tested or run or anything. So just trying to bring things home a little bit in that we have to prioritize the voices of marginalized people in these conversations.Now, that is true all the time, particularly when there is no media or video. And in this particular case, there is video of all of this, similar to George Floyd, similar to Sonya Massey in the United States, there's video of this terrible perpetration of sexual violence, and there's video of the soldiers guarding this action so that people don't see it from the cameras and that it continues to happen, which is why these soldiers were quote unquote, arrested in the first place.What Would It Take for Americans to Wake Up to the Reality of This Suffering?Jonathan Walton: Now, my final thought around this is, which really a question, is like I wonder how desensitized we have become to the suffering of others and made it normal for these types of things to happen. And I wonder what it would take, in Jesus name I pray it is not violence.But I wonder what it would take for us to be awakened to actually do something about it as American citizens, because it is our tax dollars, our money, it's all of us that are funding that. And so those are my thoughts as I consider this, because there's a population of people that is further desensitized running into a population of people as being further radicalized because they are seeing more and more images and media come across their feeds. And my longing and hope is that there would be an awareness of the people who have been so desensitized and propagandized of the pain and suffering of the people who are experiencing deep harm, so that there can be some sort of reconciliation and just peace and a ceasefire and all those things before, not because of a war. That's my prayer.And so, yeah, as I am, [laughs] I'm gonna in Jesus name, be at Hunter College, be at Brown, be at MIT, be in Florida this fall, I'm gonna be talking about that. Having conversations, encouraging people to advocate so that there is a lesser chance of violence. Sy, that was a lot for me [laughs]. What are you thinking and feeling?Dehumanization Always Leads to Horrifying Violence, and Turns Oppressors into MonstersSy Hoekstra: That was very good. The thing that is so frustrating to me is how incredibly predictable this was.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.Sy Hoekstra: From the moment October 7th happened, they said, “This is our 911” Okay, This is your Abu Ghraib. This is your Guantanamo. Like we cannot expect to react the exact same way to an attack and not have this happen again. You can't expect to have the same dehumanization and racism against Arabs and not have this happening again. I don't know. It's just so frustrating to me, having grown up with the War on Terror, and just feeling like I'm watching it all over again. And just like it was in America, there's a lot of people in Israeli society who think this is all fine and totally support it.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And we may have done it in a little bit more of a buttoned up way. We might have done it with some lawyers making questionable interpretations of international humanitarian norms or whatever. We might have put the stamp of approval on it of some more powerful forces than they have available to them in Israel, but they're doing the same thing that we were doing. The thing that we need to come away from this is knowing that your dehumanization of other people has real life consequences, and the consequences are both for the victims who experienced horrific things and for the victimizers. Because one of the whistleblowers, when they were talking to CNN, the CNN reporter who doesn't believe this himself, and he put to the soldier, “A lot of people in Israel would say, well, Hamas does way worse than this to our captives. So what's the problem?” And he said, “Hamas is not your bar.” It's like, fine, if you want to be a terrorist organization, go ahead, be a terrorist organization. But you have to recognize that that's the moral decision you're making. You are not better than them, if this is what you are willing to do to them. And your dehumanization of other people at some point will turn you into a monster, is what I'm saying.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And I just, I don't know [laughs]. I'm mad about it because of the horrifying consequences that it has on individual people, so it's a little bit visceral for me, but it is just so frustrating to watch all these things happen all over again and with our same stamp of approval.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And if you want an example of why electing Kamala Harris will not be a victory for all things good and moral, it is because this sort of thing will continue.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.The Church Is Complicit in This TerrorSy Hoekstra: Another thing from Reverend Isaac last week was he really did a good job of emphasizing how complicit in all this the church is. Emphasizing points like, Christian Zionism actually predates Jewish Zionism, and there are actually way more Christian Zionists in the world than there are Jewish Zionists, just the raw numbers.Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: And our support of that theology, our creation of that theology, our failure to fight it at every turn, that is what makes us just wholly complicit in what is happening over there. And Jonathan literally, here's the last note that I wrote in our outline: “Hopefully Jonathan has something uplifting to say before we end” [laughter], because I'll be real, I'm not thinking of it right now.Followers of Jesus need to Focus on Doing Small Advocacy out of Deep Love for OthersJonathan Walton: Yeah. So God's good news about politics is what we're talking about. We are talking about the allocation, distribution of resources, and how people have decided to govern ourselves, and what has happened in the United States, if we're just gonna hang out in the container that we're in, that in the United States we have decided with billions of dollars of our tax dollars, that we are going to build, then send, then advise the genocide of another group of people. I do not want the voting and advocacy and time and work that I do to be perpetrating that or be complicit in that. I might be involved because I have no choice not being overruled, but I will not be unopposed or complacent.And so as followers of Jesus, I think we have two options, and Peter did this really, really well. Peter was suffering under the oppression of the Jewish people, just like Jesus was, and Jesus' family and Jesus' friends and all the disciples as they were being occupied by Romans. And Peter thought he was doing the absolute just right, good thing in carrying a knife all the time, so that when Jesus got arrested, he pulled out his sword and chopped off the dude's ear. And this is John 18, the scene when Jesus was arrested. Jesus then picks up dude's ear, puts it back on his head, tells Peter to fall back. And Peter had two options. Peter could have said, “You know what, this sucks. I'm just not gonna do this anymore. Jesus, you're wrong.”He could have done that. He could have said, “You're presenting me with this gospel of hope in the world that is to come, not the world that is right now.” And he could have said, “I'm just going to give up, or I'm going to… look Simon the Zealot, we listen to this dude talk. It's time to start this.” He could have done that, but instead, eventually he got to, “I'm actually going to be the rock of this Church that Jesus said I was going to be,” which is why you and me and so many people listening to this podcast, have decided to follow this man who happens to be God named Jesus, who 12 ordinary men and a bunch of women that we did not name because they too are from a patriarchal society, we know a few of them, like Mary and Mary Magdalene and Dorcas and Phoebe, who decided to say yes, and thousands of years later, we're still talking about them.And so my hope would be that we as followers of Jesus, would say, “Hey, you know what? What small group of people can we do a little bit of revolutionary actions out of a deep, deep love for so that many, many, many years from now, people are still choosing love over fear and violence.”Sy Hoekstra: There we go, Jonathan. I knew you had it. I knew you had it in you [Jonathan laughs]. But I appreciate that, because when I say uplifting, that feels like something I can resonate with even while I'm looking at the horrifying nature of what I'm looking at. That feels like something where you're not sugarcoating it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, right.Sy Hoekstra: And that's what I appreciate, and that's what I meant by uplifting. I don't want us just to end on a happy note, because you're Christian and you have to or whatever [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Amen, amen.Sy Hoekstra: So thank you so much for all this work that you're doing trying to create those small communities where people love and do good things. We did a lot of work and tried very hard to do it when we were in college, and I appreciate that you're still trying to get people to do the same thing as they go through that time in their lives.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Prayers and Support for Protesting Students Returning to CampusSy Hoekstra: And you and I will be absolutely praying for and supporting in any way that we can the students as they come back to campus and continue to, again as Munther Isaac said, lead the way in ways that the church has been so afraid to do and so unwilling to do.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, exactly.Sy Hoekstra: If you're listening to this, and you're about to go on to a campus [laughs], or you're already on a campus, we are praying for you, and we absolutely cannot imagine, I don't know, just the uncertainty and the strangeness of what you're doing, but we so appreciate it that you are doing it. And if you're not, and you're just choosing to support people in other ways, because there are many reasons to make that decision, then more power to you as well.Outro and OuttakeSy Hoekstra: Okay. We are going to end there. Jonathan, thank you so much. This was a great conversation. I'm really glad that we got to do it. We'll have those Bible studies that Jonathan created in the show notes.Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. Editing by multitude productions. Transcriptions by Joyce Ambale. Production of the show, by me and all of our lovely paid subscribers. Please remember, go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber. Get the bonus episodes of this show, as well as access to the monthly Zoom conversations. When you're listening to this we will just have had one, so be sure to sign up for the next one coming in September. Thank you all so much for listening, and we will see you all in two weeks.Jonathan Walton: Bye.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: We are close to the camera. We are ready to go.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah. By the way my camera, I tried so many different things to make it work here in Canada, and there's just nothing to be done.Jonathan Walton: I understand.Sy Hoekstra: So highlight reels from this episode will come from Jonathan Walton [laughs].Jonathan Walton: No worries, yes.Sy Hoekstra: Just make sure everything you say, you look really cool saying it.Jonathan Walton: I do look really great [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Hey, I'm glad you know that about yourself, Jonathan, I cannot confirm [Jonathan laughs]. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Help keep our podcast going by contributing to our Patreon! This is a Podcast Takeover about the real threat that is Project 2025. Joining us is Dr. Brad Onishi, co-host of the podcast Straight White American Jesus, a podcast that explores the culture and politics of Christian Nationalism from the perspective of two ex-evangelical ministers turned professors of religion. In this episode, Brad walks us through the influence of Christian Nationalism on Donald Trump's second-term agenda--and exactly how, through Project 2025, Trump could dismantle our democracy, wield our military against us, and impose a rigid view of Christianity on a non-consenting public. This may be the last election we ever get to vote in. So we all need to vote like our lives and our country depend on it.  Sponsors and Advertising This episode was brought to you by Taskrabbit. Go to Taskrabbit.com and use promo code FANGIRL at checkout for 15% off your first task. This episode was brought to you by Field of Greens. Go to FieldofGreens.com and use promo code FANGIRL for 15% off your first order and FREE rush shipping. This podcast is a member of Airwave Media podcast network. Want to advertise on our show? Please direct advertising inquiries to advertising@airwavemedia.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today, we talk with theologian and activist Jesse Wheeler about the rotten fruit of the West's theology in Palestine and the broader region. We get into:-        How everyday Christians can tell the difference between good and bad theology-        Examples of the fruit of bad Western theology in Palestine and the region of the Middle East/North Africa-        How we must acknowledge the horrible effects of the Zionism on both sides of the political aisle, even while rejecting Trump-        What the political witness of Christians should be with respect to how we handle power-        And after the interview, Sy and Jonathan discuss the Christian nationalism and bigotry in faith leaders' response to controversies at the OlympicsMentioned in the Episode-            Our anthology, Keeping the Faith-            Jesse's essay from the anthology, “Bad Theology Kills”-            Jesse's book, Serving a Crucified King-            Jesse's organization, Friends of Sabeel North America-            The new Institute for the Study of Christian ZionismCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Jesse Wheeler: The Kingdom of God, or Christians, or those who would seek to be citizens of the kingdom, cannot live in such a way that emulates the kingdoms of this world. What that entails is, I call it the proper use of power. It's not like physical versus spiritual as sometimes we try to kind of get. It's like, no, it's actually how we understand power and why Jesus through going to the cross, he was basically saying, “Okay, empire, the forces of violence and hatred and exploitation, give me your all.” And he took it to the cross and took it on the cross, and he rejected the violent option.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting Injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. We have a great show for you today, including an interview with another one of our authors from our anthology on Christianity and politics in the era of Trump. This one's on how regular Christians can discern between good and bad theology, and how we can see bad theology playing out in the Middle East. Plus afterwards, hear our thoughts on the interview, and we'll be doing our segment, Which Tab is Still Open, diving deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. This week it's all about the Olympic opening ceremony controversy, trans athletes at the games and the White Christian persecution complex.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. We should probably say non-trans athletes at the Olympic Games.Jonathan Walton: I was literally about to be like, “and not?” [laughs] but…Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, that's part of the persecution complex. But we will get to that folks, don't worry. You will hear the whole story on how ridiculous it is. Before we get there, a quick reminder, please, everybody consider going to KTFPress.com and becoming a paid subscriber. We will not be able to continue doing this work beyond this election season if we do not get a lot more paid subscribers. So if you want to see this work continue, please go there and sign up. That gets you all the bonus episodes of this show. It gets you access to our monthly Zoom subscriber chats and more community features. So please KTFPress.com, become a paid subscriber.If you already are a paid subscriber, consider upgrading to a founding member level and please share widely with your friends and family to anyone who you think might be interested in joining our community here. Thank you so much all. All right Jonathan, tell everybody about our guest this week.Jonathan Walton: Yes, we have the amazing Jesse Wheeler. For almost three years, Jesse has served as executive administrator and development director for Friends of Sabeel North America, an interdenominational Christian organization seeking justice and peace in the holy land through education, advocacy, and nonviolent action. Prior to that, he served just shy of seven years in Beirut, Lebanon as a project's manager for the Institute of Middle East Studies at the Arab Baptist Theological Seminary. He also ran the Master of Religion in the Middle East and North African studies program, working also as support instructor for MENA history, politics and economics.He has served in Nazarene, evangelical free and Presbyterian churches, and he holds a PG certificate in baptistic histories and theologies from the University of Manchester, a master of divinity with an emphasis in Islamic studies from Fuller Theological Seminary and a BA in diplomatic in Middle Eastern history with a minor in political economics from the University of California Berkeley. Jesse's wife Heidi is Palestinian-American, and they have three amazing boys. Now, Jesse's essay in our anthology was called Bad Theology Kills: How We Justify Killing Arabs. We actually published that at one point on KTFPress.com, so we'll have the link in our show notes to that. And you can get the entire anthology with all 36 essays at Keepingthefaithbook.com. That link will also be in the show notes.Sy Hoekstra: So we did this interview like we did a lot of our interviews a few months ago, at this point [laughs]. We've been releasing these slowly. This one we did in April, which is relevant. I only say that now because we talk about Biden a decent amount, and when it comes to Palestine, which is what we're talking about when we mention Biden, there's not a lot of distance between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.Jonathan Walton: Nope.Sy Hoekstra: So [laughs], I just wanted to note that up top so that you know that effectively all the content, all the things that we actually say on the subject don't really change given the candidate switch. But that disclaimer behind us, here we go with the interview with Jesse Wheeler.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Jesse Wheeler, thank you so much for being with us today on Shake the Dust. We really, really appreciate it.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah, no, thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be with you guys.How Everyday Christians Can Tell Good Theology from Bad TheologyJonathan Walton: Yeah. We were privileged to publish your essay in our anthology, and you gave us a relatively simple and accessible test for judging the value of the theology that we hear from leaders. Could you talk a little bit about the fruit test?Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. The fruit test, basically, it's taken straight from the Sermon on the Mount. It's no secret that there are different theological systems that exist in the world, different schools of thought, different ways of thinking, and it can be overwhelming, actually. And I'm even thinking of either my own context back when I was in seminary and sort of some of the destabilizing aspects of it, or when I was working at a seminary and working with students who are introduced to new ideas. And it can be overwhelming even epistemologically overwhelming when they're getting ideas that sort of might butt up against core ideas that maybe they were grown up with that are core parts of their identity. It can be very destabilizing.And this question of is there a way to distinguish good theology quote, from bad theology quote- unquote, if, I mean, those are very reductionist [laughs] the terminology itself, of course. But I think it comes straight from the Sermon on the Mount actually. And Jesus in the concluding sections of Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 7, Jesus gives this, “By your fruit you will recognize them.” How to tell true prophets from false prophets on the basis of their fruit. He doesn't necessarily say, go get a doctorate in systematic, [laughs] in dogmatics to determine whether they are… He's like, look at the fruit of what is happening.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: And it's for normal people too. This is like normal people without massive theology to say, “Hey, look at this. I see that the fruit of this is leading to hurt and harm and destruction, or the fruit of this is leading to healing and health and flourishing.” It's not to denigrate or dismiss theology. I mean, the title of my chapter is Bad Theology Kills. I think Theology is important.Jonathan Walton: ExactlyJesse Wheeler: [laughs] It's a litmus test for assessing theology. And right there, Jesus chapters five, six, and the first part of seven, he gives a whole list of instructions of teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, and then concludes with, “Therefore do to others what you would want others to do for you. This summarizes the law and the prophets,” which is of course, the scriptures. Basically saying, if you wanna know what the scriptures teach, what God is expecting of you, do for others. And even in other parts of the gospels, when people ask, “Oh, what's the greatest commandment?” And he comes back to, “Love the Lord your God,” it's the Shema.And then right on adds it, and your neighbor as yourself taking that from the Leviticus. And he's like, there you go. Basically says that and then immediately goes into this section on two roads, easy road and narrow road. And then right after that talks about the false prophets who will come, who might speak eloquently, lovely, and yet the fruit is rotten.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jesse Wheeler: The fruit is rotten.Sy Hoekstra: Absolutely.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Out of the three of us, I feel like I am the one in the position to most appreciate your point, that you don't need a big theological education to apply this test [laughs]. Because for me and for a lot of the people listening, if you don't have a master's in divinity like Jesse, you haven't been doing ministry and Bible studies and everything for years and years like Jonathan, the more you learn about how little as kind of lay people we know about the whole wide world of theological academics and whatever, the more you realize, I don't feel equipped [laughs]. And so this is, I think, like Jonathan said, it's accessible. It's something that the average person can apply and have some success [laughs] according to Jesus, trying to figure out what's good and bad.Theologies that Have Born Rotten Fruit in the Middle East and North AfricaSy Hoekstra: And then I would like to hear from you, in your work doing work with advocacy in churches in the MENA, in the Middle East and North Africa, sometimes abbreviated MENA region, what have you seen bearing bad fruit? What kinds of theologies have you seen bearing bad fruit?Jesse Wheeler: So, I mean, I could start with the three I listed in my chapter, but I think I kind of want to say like, there is so, so much misunderstanding and prejudice and straight up bigotry that's filtered through a theological system that attempts to justify it.Colonialist PaternalismJesse Wheeler: But I'm going to start with the three I listed in my chapter, and the first one, colonialist paternalism.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Jesse Wheeler: It's a theology of colonial supremacy. Why one person gets to make the decisions for another person, gets to invade another country, gets to conquer, but it's couched in a paternalistic language, often. In a this is for your own good language.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: It's the, I'm not going to attempt to do the French, but the civilizing mission [laughs], hand in hand with the White man's burden from back in the 19th century of bringing our civilization, our Christianity, on one hand… I mean, sometimes it was the church and sometimes it was full on those modern secularists springing [laughs] their enlightened, was just, it was hand in hand with the colonial project too. And that's actually what muddies up the water sometimes in our discourses, especially on more left side of the aisle discourses [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely.Jesse Wheeler: Because you go from there and you go into speaking right in the Middle East, right after World War I, when you had the three competing promises, you had deals, you had The Balfour Declaration on the one hand, you had Hussein McMahon promising the Arabs of the Hajj, the like the Hussein family, a state, an Arab state, if they would help fight against the Ottoman Turks. And then you had the Sykes-Picot which was basically France and Britain getting together and saying, “Okay, here's how we're going to divide up the spoils.” [laughs]Sy Hoekstra: And the Balfour Declaration was Britain's intent to make a Zionist state.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. Basically a Zionist state in historic Palestine. And so, but you get into afterwards and you had the 14 points, and Wilson came in with, “Oh, we're gonna create a whole new world of peace and…”Sy Hoekstra: The League of Nations.Jesse Wheeler: The League of Nations, yeah. And the mandate system, like the fruit of 2that, where basically it's like Sykes-Picot. It's like Britain takes control, France takes control of Lebanon, Syria, Britain, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, and they had Egypt too. So it's just, but it's couched in this language of, it's for your own benefit. We are here to provide guidance to these native populations who need to be trained in the ways of democracy.Jonathan Walton: It's framed as benevolence. Like this is a good thing.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a good thing. It's like we are colonizing you for your good thing. Of course, land extraction, resource extraction [laughs], all of these marks of colonialism are part of this, right, but this is how it's justified, how it's sold, how it's…Sy Hoekstra: But the theology, like basically you're saying there were always churches and people propping up those colonialist ideas in the Middle East with basically the stamp of approval of the Bible or the church.Jesse Wheeler: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And it's not a total. I do need to make the point that sometimes the missionaries were very much… actually in the Middle East and in, or very much part of the colonial project, sometimes they actually would actually fight and counter the colonial project in certain ways, even though they were also facilitated by it. But yeah, these theologies, the colonialist paternalism. But to continue on, you have a theology of the Cold War developed almost of democracy and we'll bomb your entire country, but we will protect you from communism [laughs], you know.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: To very much part of my life, the war on terror. We're bringing democracy to the Middle East.Sy Hoekstra: Right. I was going to say that just sounds like George W. Bush, like everything that they were saying post World War I. It hasn't changed a lot.Jesse Wheeler: It has not. It has not. And so that's the first one.Henotheism: My Good God Will Defeat Your Bad GodJesse Wheeler: The second one in my book I describe as, I take this term from a scholar Joseph Cumming, he's a comparative theologian of Christianity and Islam, but he calls, he speaks of Henotheism.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jesse Wheeler: Which is sort of your tribal deity. I don't want… people push back on using tribal as a negative, but sort of the sense of like God is our God and we are the holy ones, and their God is a demon, and we will defeat them and destroy them. And so I even take this quote again from this, the war and terror era where a general speaking about fighting this warlord, whatever, in North Africa, talking about, “We have God on our side, and their god's a demon, and that's why we're gonna win and be victorious.” And this is so much in situations of conflict and situations, you very much have this sense of, “we are the good, our God is the good, they're the evil. And so because they're so evil, any violence is justified against them.”Sy Hoekstra: And that dates like straight back to the crusades.Jonathan Walton: Yep.Jesse Wheeler: Oh, yeah. This is crusades [laughs]. Exactly. Exactly. It's a crusader theology, but it's also when you really dig into it and you ask, well, these are supposed monotheists. And isn't the whole point of monotheism that there's actually one God for everybody, and thus it's to turn the God of the cosmos, the monotheistic God into a territorial idol.Settler Colonialism/ZionismJesse Wheeler: I'll move on to the third one, which I think is very relevant in that what I listed as manifest destiny. But it's the settler colonial theology, where it's different from the colonialist paternalism, because this is really, it's a theology that justifies why I deserve to go into a land, remove the indigenous people and take it for my own, basically.Sy Hoekstra: Which is the difference between settler colonialism and like metropolis, distant ruler colonialism.Jesse Wheeler: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And Jim Wallace, once he wrote, the most controversial statement I ever wrote talking about something he previously wrote was how America was founded on the genocide of one people and the enslavement of another. There was a time in my life where hearing words like that would be so deeply, deeply disorienting for me. My identity, my understanding of who I am. I think part of that discomfort, which is very real, because that's part of my background, and is I think what drives people to someone like Trump. Less the logic behind it, but the emotional, the emotions of feeling safe to have this champion on my side. But that's the simple truth. I mean [laughs], there's this belief that we are god's, we have this divine mandate to come into this new territory. And so I'm talking here about America, but of course this happened all over the world, actually. France and Algeria.Jonathan Walton: Right.Jesse Wheeler: That was so utterly destructive of traditional Algerian society. And France would even talk about, “Algeria is fully France. We are one.” And so I don't understand why these people are rebelling because we've given them democracy and freedom, when it's like, no, you've completely disrupted their entire civilization and ruled, but how it affects the news, you have the whole Charlie Hebdo incidents and these attacks in France. And this was violent murderous acts, yes. And morally they should be condemned, but you have to see them in their historical context [laughs] of this, the Algerian conflict. But South Africa, this was a deeply theological Dutch Calvinist movement. Even Argentina was a settler colonial context as well.Sy Hoekstra: I mean, most things in the Western hemisphere are [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. But in a way of the natives were cleared out more.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yes. I see what you're saying. Right. In Argentina, yes.Jesse Wheeler: Compared to like Brazil, just to the north. And then of course, Zionism is right in there with that. I think it's a theology that justifies why one group gets to come in and displace another group. And those three are three big ones.The Rotten Fruit of Colonialism and Zionism is on Both Sides of the Political AisleJonathan Walton: Yeah. I think those three, if we could hold them together as we press into the conversation, all of them are relevant. As we kind of move from the anthology into the present day. So in 2020 you wrote, “If our task is to examine the fruit and avoid falling prey to seductive rhetoric, it is crucial to note that from the vantage point of the Middle East, Republican drones don't look or act much differently than Democrat drones. Biden's record on the Iraq War or Israel-Palestine, while not as appalling or destructive as that of the Republicans is nevertheless quite bad. He's the only viable choice put before us on election day, yet we must remain vigilant in holding a potential Biden administration to account in the weeks, months, years that follow.”Now, I don't think any of us knew when you wrote that [laughs], how relevant, prophetic and important that last sentence would be. Especially when we talk about the settler colonial ideas that you just talked about, and the deep enmeshment and entanglement with Christian Zionism and the colonial state that is Israel. So, can you… I don't know how to say this just in a simple way. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've been up to with the Friends of Sabeel over the past several months, since October 7th? And what are your thoughts about the two candidates? Because they're the same [laughter], as we look towards the election in the Middle East now. And I will also say our thoughts and prayers are with your friends and family in Palestine.Jesse Wheeler: Thank you.Jonathan Walton: And we've been praying that they would be safe in Jesus' name.Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. No, thank you. I'm trying to think of where do I start digging in? First, my wife is Palestinian. Her family, still a lot of family in Bethlehem. My kids therefore are Palestinian. So I have a deep personal connection. And so to your listeners, knowing that [laughs] who is this guy? I definitely have a deep and emotional pull and connection to what's happening right now. But to go back to what you were first saying is, as you were reading that quote, that passage, and you had wrote, Biden is the only viable [laughs] candidate, my heart sank [laughs]. I'm like, “Ugh.” I understand why I said it at the time, but the listeners need to understand the depth of feeling of the pain, the sense of betrayal, especially amongst the Arab and Palestinian-American community and even wider Muslim community. The utter hurt that they felt in these last six months by everything that has happened.And so, it's so hard because Trump, just to get into the politics of, it's like I don't even need to say it. From my perspective, from where I stand, Trump is bad [laughs]. I mean, it's like he's out there saying, re-implement the Muslim ban and all completely bigoted and horrible. His son-in-law's talking about, “Oh, yeah, and there will be prime real estate in Gaza,” and [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Right.Jesse Wheeler: You know, back to settler colonialism. And yeah, it's terrifying. But the thing about Biden, and here's where I just have to say, he will in one breath talk about the importance of combating anti-Arab bigotry and Islamophobia, and in the next breath give billion more dollars of armed shipments to a country that the International Criminal Court is saying in their legal language, is very plausibly in the midst of an active genocide [laughs]. I'm not a lawyer. Sy, you're the lawyer [Sy laughs]. And it's just the duplicity is what hurts. So KTF shaped, you talk of Christian nationalism a lot and the dangers of Trump, and that largely the anthology was digging into that. And I remember writing the idolatrous fruit is rotten. I mean, that is like, the man thinks he's Jesus, I mean, or… [laughs] It's just horrifying.Sy Hoekstra: But it's still there with Biden.Jesse Wheeler: It's still there.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Jesse Wheeler: It's like when you are connected to the Middle East, either via family or study, or I lived in Lebanon for seven years, when you're paying attention, it's very hard to cheerlead one political party versus another when it comes to the American presence in the Middle East, which has been incredibly destructive.Sy Hoekstra: And we have come back to that point that you made in your essay. If you listen to a lot of episodes of this show, you will have heard Jesse's name and this point brought up before [laughs].What Should the Political Witness of Christians Be?Jonathan Walton: Mm-hmm. You explained in the essay and just now, drones do not own political parties. The bombs that are dropping are the same. The impact they have is the same, devastation is the same. So the idea of the cross to so many people around the world, particularly in the Middle East, North Africa, the MENA region is a symbol of hatred and violence when it's supposed to be like the ultimate expression of God's holy love. We are recording this just after Easter, contemplating the death and resurrection of Jesus. To you, what should the political witness be of people who carry the cross of Jesus?Self-Sacrifice and a Rejection of Imperial ViolenceJesse Wheeler: Self-Sacrificial love. Quite simply what the cross represents. But at the same time, to dig into it a little more, the cross is what? It's a instrument of imperial violence, that's what it is. There's a reason Jesus died on the cross. It is ultimately a rejection of the Imperial way. Theologically, we need to talk a lot of the kingdom of God and how the kingdom of God exists as a direct challenge to the kingdoms of Pharaoh, of Babylon, of Caesar. And one of the brilliant things of the Hebrew scriptures of the Old Testament is the fact that it's also the kings of Israel and Judah [laughs], who become the Babylonian leaders. So you have the prophets who rail against the injustices of the Assyrians, but also look back at their own kings.And when Jesus comes proclaiming the kingdom of God, and when he comes before Pilate and he's brought before Pilate, what does this show right now? And I'm just pulling straight from N. T. Wright, so don't [laughs] pretend I'm like some great Bible scholar here. No. But you have Jesus, who is the representative of the kingdom of God standing before Pilate, who is the full legal representative of Caesar, son of God as they were known and called. And it's just a straight back and forth. And what does Jesus say? He says, my kingdom, there's the quote that always gets misinterpreted. So if you're talking politics and faith, my people say, my kingdom is not of this world. Well, people tend to say, oh, well, Jesus is, it's a spiritual kingdom.So all we do is sit and pray, and then you just let the world live as what empire, as injustice, like do we have nothing to say? No, he says it's more like, my kingdom is not from this world. It's not in kind to those kingdoms of this world, but it's very much in and for this world. Why?Jonathan Walton: Amen.Jesse Wheeler: Otherwise, Jesus says, going back to the garden, we just came through holy week, otherwise what? My disciples would've fought. They would've picked up arms, they would've become revolutionaries, they would've fought my arrest. They would've holed up in the mountains. They would have… So you have the kingdom, but going full back to the cross, kingdom by way of cross. So the kingdom of God cannot, or Christians, or those who would seek to be citizens of the kingdom, cannot live in such a way that emulates the kingdoms of this world. What that entails is, I call it the proper use of power. It's not like physical versus spiritual as sometimes we try to kind of get… It's like, no, it's actually how we understand power and why Jesus, through non-violence, through going to the cross, he was basically saying, okay, empire, the forces of violence and hatred and exploitation, give me your all.And he took it to the cross and took it on the cross, and he rejected the violent option. He did not take up the swords and the arms. He just said, just previously, those who live by the sword will die by the sword. And so that is the witness of the cross. It's self-sacrificial love. It's not this assertion of like, “Hey, this is mine. This is my space, this is my territory.” This is why, back to America, this is why the Christian nationalism is so idolatrous.Sy Hoekstra: We just had a, our March bonus episode, you're like hitting a bunch of our points, actually [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes. Keep going.Jesse Wheeler: Oh, no. Yeah. Thanks [laughs]. It's why it's so idolatrous, is because it's complete rejection of the way of Jesus. It's a complete rejection of what the cross is and what it's supposed to represent. I mean, scrolling through social media, I came across what this is like giant muscle Jesus breaking free from the cross. I'm like, no, that's the complete… no, the cross is the… Like Jesus says, you don't think… back in the garden, he says, you don't think I could call down angels? Call down [laughs] fire from heaven, and just like in an instant, make this all go away? He's like, “No, I'm going to the cross.” It's an example for us to follow.It Takes Faith in the Resurrection to Use Power Like JesusJesse Wheeler: And it's an article of faith. This is where people will come back and say, this is why it is hard for people, because it is a belief in the resurrection.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Jesse Wheeler: All the forces of death and all the things we do to avoid death. All the killing we do of others, the things we… all the hoarding of resources. All the things we do that we try to preserve ourselves and in the process hurt other people. And we build walls and we break them down. He's like, let it go. Let it go. Let it go. Go to the cross because the resurrection is happening. And it's hard for people because if you don't believe in resurrection, in a sense it's very difficult. But it is very much a faith stance and a faith position.The Roots of Sabeel in the Political Witness of Palestinian Liberation TheologyAnd going back to, you asked about Sabeel, you asked about where I work. So Sabeel is an organization founded by Palestinian-Christians out of the time of the first Intifada, the Palestinians uprising. Very much a movement, a spontaneous movement that didn't involve the PLO, which was largely external at the time, or the Palestine political leaders, and was a complete shock to many of the global leaders.And largely involved a lot of nonviolent direct-action, sort of creative actions, creative resistance and great violence actually was to try to throw it down in response. And yet, Naim Ateek, he was the founder of Sabeel, he wrote a book, published it 1989. It's called Justice and Only Justice, A Palestinian Theology of Liberation, basically started asking the question, how does our faith, our Christian faith, does it have anything to say to the situation, to us being under this violent, brutal occupation? And sort of the traditional, across the board, Orthodox Catholic, Protestant theologies weren't really saying much.So they started just, would preach there in St. George's Episcopal Church right in Jerusalem. And after the service, they'd kind of get together and start discussing. Like let's read a passage and let's think and just look. It's very much like you, if you think of the classic liberation theology in Latin America. The base communities just getting together. It's basically kind of got together and started thinking, but it grew from there to, so Naim Ateek sort of was the founder, but then it was really this core group that formed and they started inviting… because even back then, they're like, “We know the narrative imbalance that people are not hearing the Palestinian side of the story. Let's bring people and show them.”And they bring people, they show them, and immediately people are converted once they see the reality. People go on tours with the holy land all the time, they're highly curated and they don't go to those scary Palestinian areas. But the moment you enter Palestinian areas and are greeted with wonderful Arab hospitality and like [laughs]… But then here's what the reality of being under their military occupation is. And it is like, oh, I see it now. So people would go back and they founded, I work for Friends of Sabeel North America, but there's groups all over and it's been still going on. And then there's subsequent groups that have formed and other great partners too that we work with.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much for being here. I mean, you didn't just write for the book. You were an enormous help in actually getting it published. You did a ton of work for us, source checking and all kinds of other things. You were… and were not running around looking for credit for any of that. So you definitely had your head down and you were doing [laughs] what you needed to do to get the word out. And thank you so much for being here today to talk to us.Jesse Wheeler: Thank you for doing it. I mean, I was really proud to be.Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much, man.Jesse Wheeler: Thank you for having me. And thank you for your witness. I mean, Palestine is a wheat and chaff issue, and I feel like those who've really stood for the truth and stood for justice and stood for what's right in the face of so much that's wrong. And it's just been amazing to see the witness of you guys, and I just want to thank you for that. It's very, it means so much.Sy Hoekstra: No, thank you for everything you do as well. We so appreciate it, man.Jonathan Walton: Amen. Blessings on you and Friends of Sabeel. Amen.Jesse Wheeler: Thank you so much. Blessings to you guys.Jonathan Walton: Amen. Thanks.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Jesse's Social Media and RecommendationsSy Hoekstra: You can find Jesse @intothenoisejsw on Instagram and Twitter. His organization, the Friends of Sabeel North America is at FOSNA.org, and those will both be in the show notes. And also, Jesse wanted us to mention another organization that just kind of had its grand opening over the summer after we recorded this interview. It's called the Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism. It's a really cool new organization with a lot of people involved who you may recognize if you're familiar with kind of the field of that particular branch of theology [laughs]. And basically, they want to be a one-stop shop, a hub, a go-to resource for everything related to fighting the heresy, as they call it, of Christian Zionism.And so, that you can find that organization at Studychristianzionism.org. We'll also put that in the show notes, obviously.Jonathan's and Sy's Reactions to the InterviewSy Hoekstra: Okay, Jonathan. After that interview, what are your thoughts?Jonathan Walton: Bad theology kills people.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Uh-huh. It's not a joke.How We Resist Institutions Built to Protect and Reinforce LiesJonathan Walton: [Laughs] I think we need to lean into that and say it over and over and over again. We cannot divorce what we believe from what we do. Can't. They are intertwined with each other. And it's baffling to me that particularly American Christians, and this like runs a gamut like Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, native, all the things, how strongly we cling to, I believe this, I believe this, I believe this, how deeply committed we are, how there are institutions, there are studies and conversations, there are all these different things that are built up around things that are just not true. Like just the level of intricacy of every apparatus to hold together a lie is mind-boggling to me.And it is so effective that we can get caught up in all the details and never think about the impact, which is what I feel has happened. Like, oh, all I do is read these books. All I do is write these articles. All I do is do these podcasts. All I do is give money to this organization. All I do is pray. All I do is watch these documentaries. All I do is host these little dinners at my house. Not knowing at all that it is undergirding the bombing of Palestinians and the rampant Islamophobia and the destruction of Palestinian Christian life. Don't even know it because it's just an encased system. So I think for me, I'm reminded of the power of the gospel transformation because the gospel and liberation is also a complete process, just like colonization is and settler colonialism is.So I'm challenged because the next time I think to myself, I'm going to change the world. I'll remember this conversation and realize only Jesus can [laughs] do that. And I need to have just as robust of a theology and apparatus built around me and participating as a follower of Jesus as the forces that are hell bent on destroying people's lives. That was just a thing I've been holding onto, particularly as we were talking about Easter, as we are reflecting on the reality of the resurrection, we need a theology of life, abundance and liberation that is just as robust, just as supported, just as active and engaged as the theology of destruction that we have now.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. The theology, specifically what he was talking about kind of toward the end about the use of power.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: I had that same thought basically that you just said. Like the way that we use power via sacrifice as opposed to using power via dominance. Like that needs to be as emphasized as anything else in our Christian discipleship.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Because it is just, it's so absent. You cannot insist to so many Western Christians that that aspect of our faith is as important as the stuff that we'll get into a minute about arguing about like sexuality or whatever [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: We have just so deprioritized these things that were so central to Jesus when he said things like, my kingdom was not of this world. So there's that.We Emphasize the Importance of Theology for the Wrong ReasonsSy Hoekstra: The other thing that I was thinking about was also related to what you just said, which is, you say bad theology kills, and we need to understand how important our theology is in that sense. But we also need to understand the way that our theology is important because we actually do think theology is really important just in the wrong way.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.We think theology is really important for defining who is in and out of Christianity or just for having proper orthodoxy and that sort of thing, just to tick all the boxes to make sure that your beliefs are correct.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Which absolutely pales in comparison to the real reason that theology is important, which is it shapes our behavior, or it can shape our behavior [laughs]. Or it interacts with our behavior and they reinforce and shape each other in ways that create policies and government actions and whole social transformations and systems across the world [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So yeah. That's what I am coming out of this thinking. We need to stay focused on. And I'm just so happy that there are people like Sabeel and others fighting in that way. And by the way, back on the point of how we exercise power and how important it is to exercise power in the way that Jesus did. Jesse actually wrote to us after the interview and said kind of, “Oh, shoot, there's a point that I forgot to make,” [laughs] that I wanted to bring up here, which is something that, so the founder of Sabeel, his name is Naim Ateek often raises, which is that, like Jesse said, Sabeel was founded after the first Intifada in 1987. But he says, there are two organizations that were founded out of that Intifada.One of them was Sabeel and the other was Hamas. And he said, basically just look at the two approaches [laughs]. There's armed insurrection and then there's non-violent direct action and education and advocacy and whatever. Like it is small what Sabeel is doing. It is certainly smaller than what Hamas is doing. And it is one of those things that probably to the rest of the world looks like it's less powerful, it's less effective. And like Jesse said, it is an article of faith to believe that that is actually the stronger way to go. You know what I mean? That is the more powerful road to take, even though it is the much more difficult one to take. And I just really wish that we could all have a faith like that.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes, and amen.Sy Hoekstra: Shall we get into Which Tab Is Still Open, Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: [laughs], all the tabs Sy. Let's go.Which Tab Is Still Open?: Christian Reactions to the OlympicsSy Hoekstra: All the tabs are still open. We're gonna talk about two stories that have to do with the Olympics, that also have to do with Western Christians [laughter], and how persecuted we feel.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: I'm just, let me quickly summarize what happened here. The details are very silly on the first one. You probably heard about this one, this is probably the more popular story. During the opening ceremonies of the Olympics, well, here's some background. The opening ceremonies to the Olympics are weird. They're always weird. They've always been weird [laughs]. I always come away from them thinking, “Wow, that was weird,” [laughter]. They usually include some kind of tribute to ancient Greece where the Olympics came from. And in this case, one of the things they did was a little tribute to the Festival of the Goddess Dionysus. Wait, goddess? Was Dionysus supposed to be a man or a woman?Jonathan Walton: A man. Dionysus is a man.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Okay.Jonathan Walton: No. Diana is a woman, but yeah.Sy Hoekstra: All right, fine [laughs]. So anyways, they had this staging of a feast, and the way it was staged with all of the people sitting at the table facing the audience and the cameras reminded a lot of Christians of the way that Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper is staged with Jesus and all the disciples facing the painter [laughs]. But all of the, or not all, but the most of the people sitting at the table were drag queens. And so Christians took this as a massive insult, that people must be mocking the Last Supper and our religion and our beliefs about conservative traditional sexuality and et cetera. The Olympic organizers came out and said, “This had nothing to do with Christianity, we apologize for the offense. This was about Dionysus, and that was kind of it. We weren't talking about Christianity, but we're sorry if we offended you.”And that was the end of it. But basically Christians said, “We're being mocked, we're being persecuted, they hate us,” et cetera. Second story, a female boxer by the name of Imane Khelif was in a fight with an Italian female boxer and hit her pretty hard a couple of times. And then the Italian boxer quit and said that Khelif is a man who is a trans woman fighting in the women's competition in the Olympics. The only reason that this was a viable thing for the Italian woman to say was because in the year before that, at the 2023 World Championships, the International Boxing Association disqualified Khelif from the competition saying that she had elevated testosterone levels and that she had XY chromosomes and was in fact a man. So she failed the gender eligibility test.The reason this is a ridiculous thing for them to have said [laughs], is that Khelif was born assigned female at birth. Her birth certificate says she's a woman. She has lived her entire life as a woman, she has never claimed to be trans in any way. And they never published the results of the test. And they only came out and said that she had failed these gender eligibility tests after she defeated a previously undefeated Russian boxer. Why does that matter? Well, the president of the International Boxing Association is Russian, has moved most of the IBA's operations to Russia, has made the state-run oil company the main sponsor of these boxing events, has close ties to Putin, et cetera [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: It has become a Russian propaganda machine. The International Boxing Association, the International Olympic Committee has actually cut ties with them, is no longer letting them run the World Championships or the Olympic games boxing tournaments. They have suffered from corruption, from match fixing by referees, lack of transparency in finances, et cetera. It is a big old mess, and they never published the results of these gender eligibility tests. And it is pretty clear that they were made up in order to preserve the undefeated title of a Russian favorite boxer [laughter]. So it's absolute nonsense is what I'm saying.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: But that has not stopped anyone, including people like Elon Musk and JK Rowling from saying, “what we clearly saw here in the Olympics was a man punching a woman. And this is where you get when you follow the transgender agenda,” and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Obviously I just named, well, Rowling is a Christian, but lots of Christian leaders jumping on this same train. Jonathan, these were yours.Jonathan Walton: [exasperated exhale] These are mine.Sy Hoekstra: Why did you include these? You have been, I'll say you have been very focused on these, the Christian reaction to things going on in the Olympics has been on the brain for you. Why [laughs]?Fusing Faith with American PowerJonathan Walton: Because I think there's a couple things because bad theology kills people. Sy, we talked about this and like…Sy Hoekstra: Well, no, wait. How is this, explain the relation there, please.Jonathan Walton: Gladly. Gladly. So I think [laughs], I'm gonna read this quote by Andy Stanley who posted this after the Dionysus thing and then took it down because I think he realized the err of his ways. But I am grateful for the interwebs because somebody screenshot it. Here we go [Sy laughs]. “Dear France, the Normandy American Cemetery is the resting place of 9,238 Americans whose graves are marked by 9,238 crosses. American soldiers, who in most cases volunteered to come to your shores in your time of need. Their final prayers were to the God whose son you mocked in front of the entire world. It was during the very meal you went to such creative pains to denigrate, that Jesus instructed his followers to love one another and then define what he meant. Quote, greater love has no one than this, that one laid down his life for his friends, end quote. While you host the Olympic Games, remember your nation hosts 172.5 acre reminder of what love looks like. You don't just owe Christians an apology. You owe the West an apology.” End quote.Sy Hoekstra: It's so much Jonathan [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It is. That's a book. That is a book. It's called 12 Lies.Sy Hoekstra: That's your book, yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And then it's an anthology that like [laughs] called Keeping the Faith, right? So that to me, and what's happened in this season of the Olympics has crystallized something for me that I think about. But these are such concrete, clear, succinct, edited examples of like, here is what happens when geopolitical power of the American apparatus is just completely inseparable, completely fused, completely joined together with the Jesus of empire.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So much so that minutes after this ceremony was completed and broadcast, you have people with the language, you have people with the vocabulary, you have people with statistics. He's like, this is the number of crosses. That means he Googled something, he don't just know that.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: We are primed as… not me, because I'm not. But the White American church and folks affiliated and committed to White American folk religion, like this race-based, class-based, gender-based environmental hierarchy that dominates this false gospel of the merchant, the military and the missionary all coming together. Like that is just so frustrating to me. And it's not going to stop because the apparatus is in like, I feel like a full maturation right now because it is under threat and constantly being exposed. So what tab is still open for me is the reality that the people who are armed with a false gospel are finally being met online and in real life by people who are willing to challenge them.And so what was amazing to me was watching a Fox News segment where someone came on and said, “Hey, Imane Khelif was born a woman, is a woman. This is not a trans issue.” There are people willing to go on and say the things. There's an online presence of people willing to go online and say the things. And I think we have an articulation of faithful followers of Jesus who are willing not just to say this is wrong, but name the connection that when we have conversations about Christians being persecuted, boom, here's a picture of Christians actually being persecuted, Palestine. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: When we have conversations, oh, we are being persecuted and violence is being committed against us. No, no, no. Violence is actually happening to trans people at a staggering level. And it correlates with when we have these nonsensical conversations that actually create environments that are more dangerous for them in the bathroom, in schools and wherever they go. And so, I can have a conversation with someone and say—this was a real conversation—we have the luxury of having this conversation as people who are not involved directly, but we do not have the luxury of as followers of Jesus is not then following up and saying, “I was wrong.”So I had conversations about Imane Khelif with Christians who said, “You know what? Oh, I didn't know that. Let me go back and post something different. Let me post an apology. You know what, I see what you're saying. I clicked on the links. Yeah, we shouldn't be doing that. I'm gonna go and have a conversation with these people.” That to me is hopeful, and at the same time, I know that this will not stop because my mama would say, “When the lights come on, the roaches run everywhere.” I fully suspect that there will be more examples like this leading up to and beyond the election.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, for sure.Jonathan Walton: …as there is more light on the sheer nonsense that Andy Stanley and these other people are propagating on a regular basis.Christians Demonstrated How Christian Nationalism is Common and Acceptable in White ChurchesSy Hoekstra: And people who jumped on this by the way, were like, Ed Stetzer and people who are kind of like in the middle politically in America and in American politics at least. They're not Trumpers. These are regular Christians [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. And that's the thing that we talked about a few episodes ago. This is the soft Christian nationalism, socially acceptable American exceptionalism. All these things are totally normal, totally fine in quote- unquote. that normal Christianity.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. And actually, so one of the things I want to emphasize about that thing you, that someone screenshotted from Andy Stanley, was that his idea of love in that post is like, I'm gonna sacrifice myself for you and then in exchange I get control over your culture so that you will not insult me.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Which is not the love of Jesus. The love of Jesus is laying down your life for your friends, period, end of story. Jesus laid down his life for people who have nothing to do with him. You know what I mean? Who can't stand him, who don't like him, whatever.Jonathan Walton: Who desired to kill him [laughs]. Right.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, exactly. And did not demand then that they conform to his way. He let them go on their way.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: The quote unquote love that says, all these soldiers at Normandy sacrificed, therefore you cannot insult us, is not Christian. Has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus. And it does have everything to do with tying your faith to an empire that uses military might to demand conformity. That is colonizing faith, period.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Why White Christians Invent Enemies Where None ExistSy Hoekstra: That aspect of it then kind of plays into some of the stuff that I was thinking about it, which is that like if you are someone who has so fused your faith with dominance like that, then you are constantly looking for enemies who don't exist to come and defeat you because that's your way of living. You live by the sword. So it's almost like a subconscious, like you live by the sword, you expect to die by the sword. You live by cultural dominance, you expect people to culturally dominate you. So you're going to find insults against one European artist's rendering of a scene from the Bible where none exist. Just because they had drag queens you don't like.You are going to find trans women who don't exist [laughs] and argue that they are a sign of the things that are destroying the culture that you built in the West. And I just think that is so much more revealing of the people who say it than it is of anything that they were trying to reveal through what they said.Jonathan Walton: Absolutely. I wonder if there were followers of Jesus who when da Vinci painted what he painted, said, “This is not my savior.”Sy Hoekstra: I can think of one reason, but why would they have said that Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Because the Last Supper is a parody of an event in the scriptures. The reality is Jesus is not a Eurocentric figure sitting with flowing robes with people surrounding him. That's not how it happened. That's not how Passover looks[laughs]. So I mean, the reality of them being these American insurrectionist pastors who say, “You know what, we are going to get angry about a parody that isn't a parody, about a parody that we believe is actually sacred.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. Well, okay. Calling the Last Supper parody I think is a little bit confusing.Jonathan Walton: No, the…Sy Hoekstra: Because I think da Vinci meant it the way that he… [laughs].Jonathan Walton: No, I'm sure da Vinci reflected his cultural reality on the scripture, which is something we all do.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Jonathan Walton: But to then baptize that image to be something that can be defiled and then demand capitulation because of our quote- unquote military might, those lines are bonkers to me. So I can be frustrated that I feel mocked, because that's a feeling, I feel mocked. But what should happen is we say, I feel mocked because I don't actually have cultural understanding and acuity to be able to differentiate my own emotional realities from the theology of the Bible when we don't have those skills. And actually we don't have that desire because we desire for them to be one and the same, like you said. I desire to feel affirmed and good and empowered all the time.And if that comes under any threat, then it's either the merchant, let's take money from you. Let's sanction you, let's get you out of the economic system so you cannot flourish in the way that we've defined flourishing to look. We will bring missionaries and people and set up institutions to devalue and debunk your own cultural narratives and spiritual things that you hold dear. And if that doesn't work, we'll just shoot you and make sure it does. Anyway, that's was more forceful than I expected it to be.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] It wasn't for me because you keep putting these Olympics things in the newsletter and you keep telling me how frustrated you are about them, but it goes to stuff that is extremely important and I appreciate you bringing up and bringing us into this conversation.Outro and OuttakeSy Hoekstra: We have to go. You specifically have to leave in a couple minutes, so we're going to wrap things up here. Even though you and I could talk about this subject forever [Jonathan laughs]. Maybe Jonathan, maybe we'll talk about it more at the next monthly Zoom conversation.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: …on August 27th that people can register for if they become paid subscribers at Ktfpress.com, which you all should please go do if you want to see this work continue beyond this election season, get access to all the bonus episodes of this show, the ability to comment, other community features like that. The anthology, again, is at Keepingthefaithbook.com, that's what Jesse wrote for and what 35 other authors wrote for trying to give us a faithful path forward as so much of the church idolizes Donald Trump and the power that he brings them in this particular political era. Our theme song is Citizens by Jon Guerra. Our podcast Art is by Robyn Burgess, transcripts by Joyce Ambale, editing by Multitude Productions. Thank you all so much for listening and we will see you in two weeks.Jonathan Walton: Bye.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: The White Christian persecution complex. [Jonathan lets out a deep, croaky “Maaaaaaaah”].Sy Hoekstra: I really should have… what was that noise [laughter]?Jonathan Walton: I think it's appropriate [Sy laughs]. It was the exasperation of my soul. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Jim talks with Pamela Denise Long about the nomination of Kamala Harris and what it might mean for American Freedmen. They discuss the meaning & value of the term "Freedmen," what it means to be Black & why it matters, misallocated affirmative action, Barack Obama's ethnicity, the history of Bantu & Nilotic Africans, Kamala Harris as a metaphor, parallels between Harris & Obama, the question of Harris's Blackness, Harris's decision to identify as Black, the influence on public policy, her statements about reparation, her hesitance to commit to direct redress for Freedmen, the context of an increasingly multiracial America, emphasizing the question of resources, remaining tensions between Black and White Americans, when ethnic identification prevents redress to Freedmen, who Denise will vote for in the election, lineage specificity, immigration moderation, the increased number of Black Americans planning to vote, and much more. Episode Transcript JRS EP 196 - Pamela Denise Long on Affirmative Action for Freedmen Dr. Pamela Denise Long is principal project manager and implementation consultant at Youthcentrix. Denise holds an EdD in organizational development, MS in Learning & Cognition, and BHS in allied health. Dr. Long is an award-winning business consultant for implementing trauma-informed diversity, equity, inclusion, and antiracism, 7th gen American, “Radical Republican,” and media personality featured at Newsweek, FOX News, WVON, The Griot Politics/Black News Channel, and more.

Tom Hanks and his wife had their $26 million residence ransacked. The media is calling it an invasion. The Hanks were not home, praise God, and no one was hurt. But this, of course, is exactly what they are voting to have when people vote to have Gavin Newsom or Kamala Harris installed. You can look at Belfast and the disorder that's been wrought with very similar policies. In Belfast, North Ireland, people who have lived in Ireland their entire lives who are being told illegal immigrants are taking their place. We will take a look at other things that liberals have invited in through their votes and what it has produced. What does God's Word say? 1 Corinthians 14:33 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord's peoplEpisode Links:LA celebrity home invasion slew continues with Tom Hanks-Rita Wilson's residence as the latest victimBelfast, Northern Ireland. “If you do not stop impact rounds will be fired.” Apocalyptic scenes from Belfast as a Police Tannoy wants protestors that ‘impact ammunition' will be fired if they do not desist. A terrifying glimpse into the future which is now.BREAKING: Commissioner of the Met Police Sir Mark Rowley has been seen leaving the Cabinet Office in Westminster. As he left, he was asked a question about two-tier policing, but Sir Mark grabbed the journalist's microphone and dropped it to the ground. If you knew you'd gotten your nanny pregnant and it had ended your first marriage, would you decide you needed to lecture other men on toxic masculinity? That's what Kamala's husband did.My ancestors didn't slave, sweat, & work hard for Joy Reid to have a job. Someone that's from the Congo. They worked for *Black Americans to have jobs. Not even for Kamala Harris who's Indian American & Jamaican. My ancestors didn't work for Kamala Harris to have these benefits; they worked for Black Americans to have benefits. Obama is not even a black American. This is why using the skin color is not sufficient. White Americans & Black Americans have been in America the longest; since its founding, & that is significant! That history matters. Most Black women think everything is about skin color & that's a superficial analysis of the situation. They're not looking at the history. They don't know the history & they're just so wedded to the political left's position. Embracing all of their policies; & their policies have been detrimental to Black America!”Former Secret Service Chief Wanted To Destroy Cocaine EvidenceTaliban Gets $239 Mil in U.S. Afghanistan Aid after State Dept. Fails to Vet AwardeesAlan's Soapshttps://alanssoaps.com/TODDUse coupon code ‘TODD' to save an additional 10% off the bundle price.Bioptimizershttps://magbreakthrough.com/toddfreeGet your 30-capsule bottle of Magnesium Breakthrough for FREE!  No promo code needed. ONLY at magbreakthrough.com/toddfreeBonefroghttps://bonefrogcoffee.com/toddSupport the Navy Seal Swim across the Hudson this Saturday (8/10/24).  Get 10% off when you enter your email and 15% off subscriptions at bonefrogcoffee.com/todd.Bulwark Capital Bulwark Capital Management (bulwarkcapitalmgmt.com)Learn about Bulwark's strategies with their FREE Common Cents Investing Guide.  Get yours by calling 866-779-RISK or go to KnowYourRiskRadio.com.EdenPUREhttps://edenpuredeals.comThis week only use code TODDBOGO to get Buy One Get One Free pricing on the Thunderstorm Air Purifiers.  GreenHaven Interactivehttps://greenhaveninteractive.comNeed more customers? Give Dave a call to get customers online!Native Pathhttps://getnativepath.com/toddStock up on NativePath Collagen for up to 45% off plus free shipping.Renue Healthcarehttps://renue.healthcare/toddYour journey to a better life starts at Renue Healthcare.  Visit renue.healthcare/Todd

On today's episode, Jonathan and Sy are talking all about conspiracy theories with Matt Lumpkin, a former minister and software developer. They discuss:-        Asking what it is that conspiracy theories accomplish for the people who believe them-        Why White Evangelicals are so susceptible to conspiracy theories right now-        The importance of churches helping people develop critical thinking, rather than outsourcing belief systems to authority figures-        How we can help people let go of conspiracy theories-        And after the interview, a fascinating conversation about despair in the face of violence like that in Palestine, prioritizing the vulnerable, and Albert CamusMentioned in the Episode-            Our anthology, Keeping the Faith-            Matt's website, Mattlumpkin.com-            Matt's Instagram-            The podcast episode on Palestine and CamusCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscriptIntroduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Matt Lumpkin: You notice almost all of these conspiracy theories provide a way to stay in the old way of thinking and being. They want to make America great again. They want to go back to a time when things made sense, when White people were powerful, and no one questioned their gender. They want to go back, right? [laughs] And if you look at the prophets, the biblical prophets, yes, they're interested in what happened before, but they're more interested in saying, how do we move forward from this? As I try to sift through and make sense of who are the voices that are worth listening to, one of the litmus tests I use is, does it ask anything from me? If the story only makes me feel good, if it only affirms my existing Identity, then that's a red flag for me.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra.Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. Get ready for an incredible interview from our series where we're bringing on authors from the anthology we published in 2020, Keeping the Faith: Reflection on Politics & Christianity in the Era of Trump & Beyond. Today, we're talking all about the world of right-wing conspiracy theories with Matt Lumpkin [laughs]. But don't worry, it's nowhere near as depressing as it sounds [Sy laughs]. Matt is really interested in figuring out how people make meaning out of their lives and circumstances, so we focus on what the benefits of believing in conspiracy theories are for the people who subscribe to them, why Conservative White Christians are so susceptible to conspiracy theories in this historical moment, and what we are learning from comparing conspiracy theories with biblical prophets and a whole lot more.Sy Hoekstra: It's a really good conversation. Matt actually does a pretty good job of taking us through his bio in the conversation, so I won't do that now, except to say he's a Fuller Seminary grad who worked as a hospital chaplain for a while and then actually made his way into the world of software development. So that is what he does now. His essay in our anthology was called “What Job Is a Conspiracy Theory Doing?” And you can find the anthology at www.keepingthefaithbook.com. After the interview with Matt, hear our thoughts on the interview, plus our segment Which Tab Is Still Open, diving a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our free weekly newsletter. Today, we're talking about a really interesting podcast episode comparing the French Algerian War to the violence in Palestine right now, all through the lens of the Algerian philosopher Albert Camus. You don't want to miss that one, it'll be a fascinating conversation.Before we dive in, like we've been saying, we need your support, and we need it now. If you like what you hear and read from KTF Press and you want it to continue beyond this election season, please become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com that's our Substack, and share our work with anyone you think might be interested. If you're already a paying subscriber, consider upgrading to our founding member tier.And if the price to subscribe is too high and you want a discount, just write to us at info@ktfpress.com. We'll give you whatever discount you want, no questions asked. Every little bit helps. Subscribers get all the bonus episodes of this show, monthly Zoom discussions with the two of us and a lot more. So please go sign up at KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber and join us in seeking Jesus and confronting injustice. Thank you so much.Jonathan Walton: All right, let's get into our interview with Matt Lumpkin.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Matt Lumpkin, thank you so much for being with us on Shake the Dust today.Matt Lumpkin: I'm so glad to be here. It's great to meet both of you. I've been a fan of y'all's work since I learned about you and started following the publishing, but also some of Jonathan's work on Instagram. I learn things from almost every post, so really appreciate that.Jonathan Walton: I appreciate that. Thanks so much.Sy Hoekstra: It's very nice to talk to you not in emails and document comments on your essays or whatever [laughter].Matt Lumpkin: Yeah. Well, it was a lovely process working with you all on the book chapter, and I love asynchronous first working patterns, so that makes me very happy. But it's great to actually be chatting and get to learn a little bit more about you guys and talk a little bit more about some of the stuff that you want to get into.How Matt Started Thinking about the Ways People Make Meaning in Their LivesMatt Lumpkin: Just a bit about me up front. So raised very Evangelical, very fundamentalist, frankly Baptist, with a [laughs] very Pentecostal grandmother. So right out the gate, you have two frameworks [laughs] who don't agree on what's true, but are both family [laughter]. So that's my religious upbringing. And then I spent early years in my career working as a hospital chaplain. I also spent some time living outside the country, taught English in Indonesia and traveled around Southeast Asia and all of those things. When I actually did end up in grad school at Fuller Theological Seminary, I had a lot of questions [laughs]. I had a lot of big questions around, how does a religion work? How do people make meaning? How do people put their meaning-making frameworks together and this language of what job is this doing? These are questions I've been asking for a long time in the course of my time at Fuller. I was there for about a decade studying part time and then working, doing a lot of online course design, and a lot of building and experimenting with online spaces, building mobile apps to test out different psychological principles, and all the way into building products.There's a product now called Fuller Equip that's still alive and kicking that I designed and built with several colleagues. So in my early career, I brought all those questions to Fuller, which is a very Evangelical space, but also a pretty… Fuller is like a bridge.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: It's a bridge from where you start to, usually somewhere different. And then a lot of people walk across that bridge, and they look back and they're like, “Man, why is this place so like still connected to that place I came from?” And it's like, because it's a bridge [laughter] and it needs to still be there so that other people can walk across. But so much goodness came from my time there, and just in terms of really expanding my understanding. I had a very narrow idea of what calling meant, a very narrow idea of what I meant to be faithful to God. And that in my mind [laughs], by the time I was 14 years old, that meant I need to be a pastor, preacher in a small church like the kind I grew up in.And it was at Fuller where I really… and my work in, all different kinds of work in early life, especially as a chaplain, was about finding a space to be faithful to that calling and that identity, while also being the person that I am who's endlessly curious about people, endlessly curious about how do things work, and what's really going on versus what people say is going on, and just how do people think about things in their own way. So in the course of doing that work, I found my way into designing software. All kinds of software, from websites and mobile apps to now in the last five or six years, I've been working on diabetes software and supporting people who live with type 1 as well as type 2 diabetes.And all those same skills I bring to bear of getting into the mindset of other people, really deeply trying to enter their world and understand what does it look like. What are the problems, what are the pain points, and then what might actually move the needle to change it? But this background in studying religion formally, studying psychology, studying cultural anthropology, these lenses are all things that I use in my work as a designer, but also [laughs] in my attempts to make meaning of this rapidly evolving landscape we live in.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Asking What Job a Conspiracy Theory Does for its BelieversSy Hoekstra: Yeah. Speaking of how things operate in people's minds versus how they say things are operating [laughter], let's jump right into your essay, which is all about conspiracy theories. And your kind of framework for understanding conspiracy theories is right there in the title, it's what job is a conspiracy theory doing? So I just want to start with, when you hear Trump talking about having the election stolen, or you hear someone talking about QAnon or whatever, why is the question, “What job is this theory doing?” the basis for how you understand what's going on with that person?Moving to Empathy and Curiosity Instead of AngerMatt Lumpkin: Yeah. So there's a few reasons. One is to move me to a space of empathy, because I don't know about you all, but I get real mad [laughs] at times about some of the just really hurtful and harmful ideas that get spread around that have no basis in fact very often, and actively harm people. It's one thing to make up a story that makes you feel good if that doesn't hurt anybody else, but a lot of these stories really create a lot of harm. So this is a step for, it's a pragmatic step for me to step out of anger, frustration, let me just push you away to get curious of what is going on here? Because so many of the stories, I think I talk about the lizard people [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Matt Lumpkin: That one takes me back to V. Did you guys watch V in the 80s? There was this lizard people, body snatchers, terrible, I don't recommend it. These people unzipping like masks and there are lizards underneath.Jonathan Walton: Yes! I do remember that. Yes [laughter].Matt Lumpkin: It terrified me as a kid. I walked in the living room one time and saw it. That's always where my mind goes when I hear those stories and I think, “Wow, how could you believe this?” So the question of, “What job is this doing?” is a way to get me out of my judgmental reactive and into getting curious about this person and what is it doing. It also connects to my work as a designer. There's a framework that we use in design called “jobs to be done” and thinking about digital products. And basically, you ask yourself, “If this piece of software were going to get hired to do this job, what would it need to do? What are the jobs to be done? And what would it get fired over?” Like if you don't do this thing, are you going to lose the job?So kind of a way of moving out of the emotional space and into the curiosity space. But also when I say the way that they say something is different from the way that they think it, we all do this. We all have cognitive biases we're unaware of, and it's not like anybody's a particular failure for having a bias that they don't see. So when I talk to people about the software that I've designed, I'm not just going to ask them, “Do you like it?” People will always tell you, “Yeah, yeah, I like it.” I have lots of strategies that I use to get behind that and understand on a more deeper level like, is this doing the job for you?What Do Conspiracy Theories Accomplish for People Who Believe Them?Matt Lumpkin: So when I came to these conspiracy theories and was just hearing these things I just couldn't fathom why or how someone come to that conclusion, what was the context? It was the pandemic. We were in the midst of the pandemic and a lot of this was happening. All the rules and the maps that people had to make sense of their world were not working anymore. And as a person who's lived outside the US and experienced culture shock directly, when your maps don't work, it is profoundly disorienting.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: You feel like a child again.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: You feel really vulnerable because you don't know how to act in a way that makes sense. I believe that that sense of disorientation, cultural disorientation, social disorientation, religious disorientation, that is the driver. That's what makes people reach out and grab onto these ideas. And frankly, I think it's what makes con men and people who are aware of this dynamic pop up. These periods of time are ripe for cons because people are looking for a way to get their feet under them again, so to speak, in a world that feels confusing and uncertain. So that's a number of different things. It's empathy, it's about moving to curiosity and away from anger, and it's also just pragmatically, what's going on here?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: What's the real value? What's the real driver here? Because it's doing something for you, whether you're conscious of it or not. People don't change their minds easily until the pain of changing your mind is more than the pain of holding on to the original ideas. So I think a lot of these conspiracy theories or strategies are ways of hanging on to old ideas that are unraveling, and they're ways of saying, we can discount this proof for this evidence here because the conspiracy supplies this idea of, “Well, the conspiracy is designed to hide things from here. It's designed not have evidence so it's okay if we don't have evidence.” Has all these logic loopholes that get people out of the normal social contract that we have when we talk in public [laughter] saying things that are true.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: Or saying things that can be checked or are credible. And I think the broader challenge that we're in is… You know, I got into working in technology after studying church history and understanding that the printing press is really a catalyst of the complete social and political upheaval of Europe.Jonathan Walton: Right.Matt Lumpkin: It's that moment that breaks the way people put meaning together, because it suddenly increases literacy and increases the speed in transmission of ideas. And I woke up and realized we are in the middle of a Gutenberg moment here. We are 25, 30 years into the internet, and we're just beginning to see the epistemic crisis, the crisis of how we know what we know really come to fruition.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: So I think that's the broader context of wanting to get curious about this, because that's the broad context. The narrow context is pandemic, the narrow context is like… there's lots of other things that push people to this feeling of disorientation.Jonathan Walton: Right.Just Providing Correct Facts Won't Change MindsMatt Lumpkin: And so I'm looking for, how is the thing that you believe that is obviously wrong or factually disprovable to me, what does it do for you? Because just pounding on people with facts has been scientifically shown to not change people's minds.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense.Matt Lumpkin: It will not work.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. What you just said makes sense, yet we love to do it.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Right? [laughs] We love to just pelt people with answers.Matt Lumpkin: Some of us do, some of us have minds that are more… and I'm guilty. I have this deep internal need that's probably related to ways in which my brain may not be 100 percent standard equipment[Sy laughs]. This internal need to make things consistent. Like if I encounter a new piece of information that doesn't match my map of the world, I've got to figure out how the information is wrong, or I've got to change my map. And I can't really rest until I've done it. But that's not most people. And there are parts of my life and thinking where I don't do that as rigorously, but there's a lot public space safety questions, questions of [laughs] science and medicine, those are ones in which I do need my model to be accurate, because those models have literally saved the lives of people that I love. Like the practice of science, the scientific methods saved my daughter's life when she was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes.We knew before the doctors did, because we gathered data, we gathered evidence, and then we were able to show that evidence. So it satisfied our way of knowing, like we measured it. It's not just family worries. It's not just parents being nervous. It's grounded in real observation that we can then hand you. But there's a lot of domains where people aren't used to doing that kind of rigor.Why Are White Evangelicals So Susceptible to Conspiracy Theories Right Now?Mat Lumpkin: As we think about the Evangelical context, one of the things I explore in the essay is why are Evangelicals particularly, do they seem to be particularly vulnerable to these kinds of erroneous claims or conspiratorial claims? I feel that that's true, and I started to pay more attention to it when I noticed other non-Christian journalists were noticing.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: Like, “Hmm, the Evangelicals are really buying this QAnon to our surprise. Outside it doesn't seem it would match,” same with a lot of Trumpism.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: A lot of Trump's ideology and way of being in the world seems very antithetical to what popular conceptualization of Jesus followers would be, and yet, it's working. So why? What job is it doing?Jonathan Walton: I'd love for you to dive deeply into that. Why do you think White Evangelicals are particularly susceptible right now?Matt Lumpkin: Thank you for that correction as well. Because I do think that it is a specific challenge to White Evangelicals, and I don't see it spreading and being shared in the same way among Evangelicals that I know that are not White.Discouraging Critical Thinking about What Authority Figures SayMatt Lumpkin: So a couple of things. One, just a general lack of rigor in how you know what you know. And why would Evangelicals have a lack of rigor and how they know it? Why would they? It's a tradition that literally emerged from people, the deep Protestant move to want to read the Bible for yourself and, but what does that do? That centers the self and the individual in the private prayer time, in the quiet time, as the source of authority.If you want to go deeper into that space, and I say this as somebody who has many Pentecostal folks in my family who was raised in no small part by my Pentecostal grandmother, and my mom, her faith is deeply shaped by Pentecostalism. But that tradition really centers the individual experience of the deity and of their experience of God as a source of truth and authority. Well, you hang around with more than one Pentecostal and you're going to find you get differing accounts of what God might be saying in any given time.Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: So that kind of flexibility and fuzziness, and in folks that move in these spaces, they're really clever at saying, “Well, that didn't mean this, it meant this now, now that I know this other thing”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: So it's very changeable in a way that's very coherent with the way that you see a lot of QAnon folks or a lot of other conspiracy theorists say, “Well, we got this piece of evidence, and so now what we said last week doesn't work anymore, but don't worry, I've got a new way to read Revelation that actually accounts for it” [Jonathan laughs]. And so that practice and that move being modeled by leaders and authority figures in these churches creates this receptivity to a kind of very, I want to use the word lazy, but that's maybe a bit harsh, but it's a lack of rigor in questioning, “What did you tell me last week [laughs], and what did you tell me this week, and why is it not the same?”Authoritarian Methods of Learning TruthMatt Lumpkin: And all of that stems from what I would say in many churches is an authoritarian epistemology.Sy Hoekstra: I was going to say it's kind of a lack of accountability, which goes along with authoritarianism.Matt Lumpkin: Yeah. I think I touched on this briefly in the essay that, when your foundation of what you know is because an authority told you, who that authority is claiming that it comes straight from God or it comes straight from the source who's deeply embedded in the deep state, those are both parallel claims. Like, “I've got a direct line, so you can trust me.” But that is a very brittle way of building a model of reality, because you're not doing it yourself. You've outsourced it to the authority, in spite of any claims you might be making to doing your own research. It's a way of saying, “Well, I can't read the text in its original Greek or Hebrew, so I'm just going to outsource that to somebody who can.” “Well, I can't understand necessarily these theological concepts, so I'm just going to trust my pastor to do that.”Well, once you get in the habit of outsourcing all these things that are at the root of your most deeply held beliefs about reality and truth, then that's a move that you're accustomed to making. And it's a dangerous move, because without a practice of critical thinking and of questioning for yourself, critical thinking is the immune system for your mind. If you don't have it, you won't notice that it's getting colonized or infected with bad ideas.Jonathan Walton: A thousand percent [laughter].Matt Lumpkin: And you won't be able to spot those infections as they make you sick and as they make your communities sick. I think what we're seeing right now is a time in which a lot of these ideas and these ways of… it's not just ideas, it's ways of thinking and ways of knowing that are very, very changeable and very flexible and fluid. They lack a certain rigor. That's happening because, why? Because people are reaching out for a way to hang on to the old map. You notice almost all of these conspiracy theories provide a way to stay in the old way of thinking and being. They want to make America great again. They want to go back to a time when things made sense, when White people were powerful and no one questioned their gender.They want to go back [laughs]. And if you look at the prophets, which is in the chapter that we're discussing here, the biblical prophets, yes, they're interested in what happened before, but they're more interested in saying, “How do we move forward from this?” As I try to sift through and make sense of who are the voices that are worth listening to, the people that are interested in trying to understand how we got where we are today, so that we can understand how we can get out of this mess, what actions we can take. Those are the voices that I think are more… One of the litmus tests I use is, does it ask anything from me? If the story only makes me feel good, if it only affirms my existing identity, then that's a red flag for me, because it's only flattering me.Now, on the flip side, if you read the book of Revelation, that book is written to a community that it's trying to encourage that community that's being marginalized, it's suffering. And it does ask some things of that community, but it's also trying to celebrate. So there aren't really easy and clean [laughs] answers on which voices you can trust, you have to do the work of doing your own critical thinking. But I think Evangelicals in general have been discouraged in many churches from doing any critical thinking at all, because it undermines the authority of the lead pastor or the leadership team or whomever…Sy Hoekstra: The denomination or whoever.Jonathan Walton: …that they've outsourced all of this work to.Matt Lumpkin: Yeah. And that might seem… I've been to seminary, I have a Master's of Divinity degree. I get frustrated when people don't listen to my authority [laughter]. You work in any number of church settings and you realize you don't want them to. What you really want is you want to teach people how to build their own faith and their own meaning using these tools, and do it in community, so that we can check each other's work.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: In my early work as a hospital chaplain, I spent a year doing spirituality support groups with the folks that were in the lockdown unit in the psych ward.Sy Hoekstra: Oh wow.Matt Lumpkin: So we're talking about doing spirituality groups with people that have schizophrenia, that have bipolar disorder, that sometimes in their mind hear the voice of God telling them to do things. Now, how do you help a person like that connect with their faith, now that their very way of knowing or having that connection is now called into question? It's a hard problem, but that's really where I started to wake up to this reality of the problematic nature of, “God talks to me, and then I go do a thing.” There are lots of stories in the Bible where that happens, and some of them are terrifying, but it is always an interpretive choice that we make to say that, “I had an experience, and I believe it was God speaking to me,” best done in community with people that you trust.I kind of wish Abraham had talked to some of his community of faith before taking Isaac up on the hill. That's a terrifying story of somebody not raising questions about what they thought they heard from God.Conspiracy Theorists vs. Biblical Prophets; Blaming “Them” vs. Inviting IntrospectionSy Hoekstra: The community point is very well taken, and also you've said it, but I want to just highlight it for the audience, because I think that the point about profits versus conspiracy theorists being the people who require something of you versus the people who require nothing of you is so important. And you are right, it is so within the culture of Evangelicalism, definitely within the culture that I grew up in, to say that everything that is wrong with the world is because of those people out there, and has nothing to do with us, and we do not need to reflect, we do not need to change, they need to become like us. And that is that colonial type of faith that you were just talking about. Everyone else needs to become like me, and then the world would be fine.Matt Lumpkin: That's a litmus test.Sy Hoekstra: It's a litmus test, but I also want to highlight the prophets being the people who against what everybody else, not what everybody else, but what in many cases everybody else in their society wanted them to do, we're suggesting the problem here might actually be us [laughter], and we need to take some time and think about how it might be us, and have some real reflection as a community. And that is actually what God wants us to do. So having a faith that is oriented around that versus a faith that is oriented around blaming the world for everything, those are faiths that go in polar opposite directions. And I want that to be everyone's red flag [laughs] is what I'm saying, and I really appreciated when you made that point your essay.Matt Lumpkin: As a designer, we use “how might we” questions when we don't know the answer [laughs]. How might we encourage faith communities to develop a healthy critical thinking and awareness of religious abuse and manipulation? I mean, religion is powerful. It's how many, many of us, most humans, make sense of their reality and situate themselves in the cosmic story and understand who they are and what their life is about. And yet it is so often used to manipulate people, to sway people, to create specific emotional experiences for people, so that whoever's doing the manipulation can get something that they want. And how might we create communities of faith that are resilient against manipulation, resilient against co-option by, I like y'all's term “colonial power” or “colonized faith?”I think it's a great lens to think about the ways in which the Evangelical tradition, which when I teach my kids about where Evangelicals came from, because I've studied this church history, abolition, that was Evangelicals. So many of the really positive expressions, I think, of Christian faith have also been a part of this tradition. So how did we get co-opted by fear and a desire to go back in time to some imagined past? How did so many churches and church people get co-opted in that way? I talk a little bit about the first time I encountered it. I'm 42, dispensationalism was around, but it wasn't a part of my church community.Sy Hoekstra: Which is just, briefly, for people who don't know.Matt Lumpkin: Yeah. Dispensationalism is the idea that… oh boy. So it's pretty young as a theological movement, I think, around 100 years. And in fact, it's a really great propaganda strategy if you want to have your religious idea emerge from the grassroots, you just print up a Bible, a study Bible. Scofield Study Bible has a lot of these connections drawn for pastors. They gave them away, they printed them up and shipped them out to pastors all across the country. Twenty years later, lots of people came up with dispensationalism, simultaneously invented. It's a really great propaganda strategy, worthy of Dune [laughter]. It laid those foundations early. But it only took 20 years in America for this idea, and this idea being that Jesus is going to come back and take away the faithful, but then real bad stuff's going to happen on earth, trials and tribulations are going to happen.And then in some versions there's a showdown with Jesus and Satan, in other versions there's not. Then it gets pretty divergent, and you can find really cool maps of this in old bookstores where people try to map it out because it's impossible to explain.Jonathan Walton: Yeah [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: And then the churches that I was around in my early theological study were obsessed with arguing over whose version of dispensationalism was right. And then you dig into it and you're like, this is a novel idea [laughs], it doesn't even go back very far in church history. So it's a great example of a way a theological concept takes hold and then gives people a lot of busy work to do, to go home and read Scripture and try to mix and match and come up with a way that makes sense of it. So The Late Great Planet Earth was the antecedent to the Left Behind books, which were big time when I was in college. And all of that is based on this idea of dispensationalism, that there's going to be an antichrist arise and then all these switcheroos and people get taken away [laughs].Like the rapture, it literally comes from the same word that we get raptor, the birds of prey, because some people are snatched away, not a good image. I don't want to be taken like that actually. That doesn't seem a positive [laughter]. So all this to say, those ideas, when did they emerge? They emerged during the Cold War. They emerged when kids were having to duck and cover under the [laughs] idea that's going to save you from an atomic blast. Like real terrifying existential stuff going on that causes people to look around and say, “This is causing me anxiety. I am terrified all the time. How can I not be terrified?” And a lot of these moves, they go back, or they look for a scapegoat to blame.And that's really, I think, one of the most harmful and most important litmus tests to hang on to. I don't like the word litmus test. I would call these heuristics. They're strategies you can use to understand something, questions you can ask yourself, like who's paying for this? Who benefits from this? What does this demand of me? Who's at fault? Who's to blame here? If the persons to blame are somebody you already feel disgust or separation from, that should be a red flag. Because we know that the human mind feels emotions before it knows why it feels them, and then this narrative kicks in to try to make sense of why do I feel these emotions? And I think a lot of how the conspiracy theories work, particularly the really deeply dark ones around pedophilia, around…Sy Hoekstra: Cannibalism.Matt Lumpkin: …cannibalism.Jonathan Walton: Cabal.Matt Lumpkin: Yeah, and a lot of those, they draw on really, really deeply held old, long, deep human history social taboos. We don't eat other people. Children are off limits as sexual partners. These are deeply held boundaries on civilization, on humanity, on even having any kind of community at all. So once you say, my opponent, the enemies, once you make them into something so horrible…Jonathan Walton: Lizard drinking blood people [laughs].Matt Lumpkin: …then it justifies the disgust you already felt towards somebody that you didn't like. So that's another way of thinking about this, of not falling for this trap of somebody coming along and saying, “You know what, your life is messed up. You are disempowered. You don't have the same cultural power and influence you had before. You can't enjoy just talking to your grandkids without worrying about offending them, and it's because of those people and their secret agenda that you can't actually know about, but I'm going to tell you about because I know,” and then what job does that do? It makes you feel justified in the things you already felt and thought. It makes you feel angry, and it makes you feel you were right all along.Feeling like you were right all along almost never [laughs] results in good actions. [laughter] When it turns out, everything I already thought was right, that's not a great place from which to get closer to truth.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, and there's a lot of gold in what you're saying, but something standing out for me is I can feel strongly about something without thinking deeply about it.Matt Lumpkin: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: So Hillary Clinton can be a lizard person who drinks the blood of children to stay alive. That's much easier than saying she's actually just somebody who benefits from systems of powers and structures that have put her in place her the majority of her life, and she's responsible for the deaths of a lot of people. But not drinking the blood of children, but like drone attacks. You know what I mean? But one requires thoughtfulness and doesn't engender those same feelings, because we don't have compassion for folks in the Middle East. I have compassion for folks in South America, but I can feel strongly about this 500 year old cabal that she's a part of and that Obama and Oprah and all them are.Matt Lumpkin: You've been reading more of that than I have. I don't know all that [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Hey man, hey man, you know, some of us got to do it so other people don't [laughter].Matt Lumpkin: Yeah.How Can We Help People Let Go of Conspiracy Theories?Jonathan Walton: But as we're engaging with these things, and I'm sure you're going to get to it, but what are some ways that you've actually seen people let go of this stuff, and how can we move towards those people in love instead of judgment, the way that you've been sharing about being empathetic?Maintaining Relationships with Conspiracy Theorists Is KeyMatt Lumpkin: I have to tell you guys, I don't think I'm particularly good at this. I have learned from some other people that I think are better at it than me. One is the thing we've talked about, about getting curious. This is just a good, this is Matt's unsolicited advice for all humans, whenever you're getting mad, pause and get curious. That's a good move to make. Getting out of the deep emotion space and into the curiosity space of what's going on here? What's really happening? Why am I feeling this?Jonathan Walton: Right.Matt Lumpkin: Why are you feeling this? What's really motivating this? But the second one is, it may feel good to want to dunk on people with facts, because it's so easy [laughs] with so many of these things, but it doesn't actually result, dunking on people rarely results in closer relationships. There are times where I think it's important to push back against direct untruths that if spread can actively harm people. But the way you want to think about it is how can I say this and keep our relationship? Because what has been shown to work to get people to move out of some of these terrible ideas is relationships with people who don't share them. Because once all of your relationships are comprised of people who share this shared reality, that's an intersubjective reality that is mutually reinforcing.All those people are thinking the same things and talking the same things and thinking under the same reality, and it will make that reality more real. So just being in someone's life and existing and being the sort of person that isn't dismissible. For your listeners that are good Bible readers, go read the Gospels again. Watch how Jesus stays uncondemnable by the rules of phariseeism, so that he can transgress the rules of phariseeism in a way that upends them, in a way that challenges them. If he was just like, “Well, this is all terrible. None of this is true,” and just lived a way that, they would say, “Well, we can't take this man seriously. This person's not a person of faith. He's not even following the law.”But no, he carefully stays comprehensible to them as a participant in their community, so that when he does transgress on purpose with intention, a thing that needs to be challenged, he can't be dismissed. So staying in the lives of these people, and this is hard work, because some of the rules and the ways in which they put their world together are nonsensical. They don't match, they don't fit together.Jonathan Walton: Right.Matt Lumpkin: So you can't do it perfectly, but staying a person that has not rejected them, and staying in relationship with them while holding on to your reality and talking about it. It's not enough that the reality just lives in your mind. You have to bring it out into the world and make it real for them, so that you become a problem [laughs] for them that they have to resolve.Sy Hoekstra: Well, I had two quick things to say about that. One is the point about throwing facts at people. If you have asked the question of what job is this conspiracy theory doing, and you have answered that question, then you will realize that throwing facts at people is not going to address that problem.Matt Lumpkin: You've just taken away the thing that was fixing something for them, and now they're not going to let go of it easily because you've not offered anything better.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, and the problem is still there. Their problem wasn't insufficient facts.Matt Lumpkin: [laughs] Right.Sy Hoekstra: So that's one thing. And the other thing is talking about having close relationship with people and being credible and all that, I think that just emphasizes a point that we made before in this show, which is that if you are in a dominant group on a hierarchy, it's easier for you to do that. It is easier for White people to talk to other White people about racism and to remain credible and to maintain your close relationships, and to be able to talk about things that maybe your racist cousin would never talk about with Jonathan. You know what I mean? And that goes for anything. Able-bodied people talking about disabled people or whatever, checking people who use ableist language. So I just wanted to draw those two points for our listeners out of what you were saying.Matt Lumpkin: I think that's really important. And I think that any advice that I'm offering here is offered from the perspective of somebody who enjoys a lot of power and privilege. As a White, cis het man in America, in my middle age, I am at the height of my power and privilege. So the question that I ask myself is, I learned early on in life, I can't give the power that these corrupt cultural institutions have given me away. I can try, but they just give it back [Sy laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Matt Lumpkin: So how might I use that power to amplify the voices of people that don't have it, that don't enjoy it? Those are questions that I come back to and need to come back to more and more. And frankly, the less risk I take, I take less risk for me to challenge those ideas. But I think again, the challenging… and I get it. I get mad and I want to shatter these false realities. When I get in a space of anger, I want to burn it down. I want to reveal the falsity of it. But burning down a shelter someone has made for their psyche is rarely a gateway to a continued relationship [laughter]. So instead, the metaphor that I like to use, and I use this even when I was working in churches and doing adult Bible study, it's a metaphor of renovation.We all have rotten boards in our faith house and in our own psychological house, the shelter that we use to face the challenges of reality. We all have things that could be improved, and it's easier to take somebody walks through and says, “Oh, I think you've got little bit of dry rot over here. I got some time this week, you want me to help you work on that? I think we could fix it.” There's a really, really great passage over in Jeremiah that could really help us shore this up. That's a better way than saying, “You know what, I came over and you're living in a house full of rotten garbage, and I just burned it down for you.” That's less helpful.Jonathan Walton: Right.Asking What Evidence Would Prove the Conspiracy Theory Is False?Matt Lumpkin: Finally, I think the thing that, and I looked for the source on this, I couldn't find it. And if I find it, I'll let you know.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Matt Lumpkin: But I heard a guy being interviewed, and he had done a lot of work scientifically in this area. If you can't tell I care a lot about science. I care a lot about how you know what you know. Scientific method is important to me. But he had said that basically, there aren't a lot of good strategies for getting people to let go of these ideas, but one that has been shown to be successful is to ask more questions. And to ask questions about, “Okay, well, why do you think that? How did you come to this conclusion?” To get curious with the person of how they came to these conclusions. And then when you hear things that are factually untrue, ask like, “Okay, well, what evidence would you accept?”So the move is this, you get curious, you ask questions, you get more data on why they think what they think. You offer some counter evidence that challenges some of the false foundations. When they don't accept it and they won't, then the move is, if you don't accept that evidence, what evidence would you accept that would actually change your mind? And that question can become the seed of doubt in the conspiracy theory thinking. Why? Because conspiracy theories are self-authenticating. There is no evidence that can show them to be false. And so telling somebody that isn't the same as them coming to that conclusion on their own and then feeling a little bit conned.At least for what I understood from this gentleman, the most successful paths are not making the leap for them, but leading them up to the leap to understand that they're locked in.Jonathan Walton: Right.Matt Lumpkin: And a lot of folks that really these theories appeal to, they appeal to them because they feel empowering. “I'm choosing this, I'm believing against the mainstream.” So once they start to realize that they're locked in a system that they can't actually ever get out of, because no evidence would convert them out of it, that's a bad feeling.Where to Find Matt's WorkSy Hoekstra: Interesting. Matt, before we let you go, can you tell people where they can find you on the internet, or what work of yours you would want them to check out?Matt Lumpkin: I do a lot of stuff at www.mattlumpkin.com, that's where most of some of the stuff that I write goes. If you want to see pictures of the paintings that I'm working on or the furniture that I'm designing [laughs], which is unrelated to our conversation, that's on, mostly on Instagram. But I don't have any way for people to subscribe, I don't have a Substack or anything like that. So I do post on Instagram when I have a new piece up, so that's one way you can sort of keep up.Sy Hoekstra: Awesome.Jonathan Walton: Nice.Sy Hoekstra: Matt is a jack of all trades [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Nice.Matt Lumpkin: Life's too short to do one thing.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Matt, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful conversation. We really appreciate you coming on and for being a part of the anthology.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, man.Matt Lumpkin: Thank you so much. And I just want to say again, thank you for the work that you're doing in decentering us White guys and centering the voices of people of color, of women. I saw your recent episode you were highlighting the challenges around birth and women of color. I'm so inspired by the way that you guys are bringing together these real deep awareness and understanding of the hard problems that we face, and also keeping that connected to communities of faith and people who are striving to be faithful to the life and teachings of Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much, Matt. We really appreciate that.Jonathan Walton: I appreciate that, man. Thanks so much.[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Jonathan Walton: att's handle on Instagram is @mattlumpkin, and we'll have that link plus his website in the show notes.Sy's and Jonathan's Thoughts on the InterviewJonathan Walton: All right Sy, what are you thinking about that interview?Sy Hoekstra: Too much [Jonathan laughs].Conspiracies vs. Prophecies Is a Crucial DistinctionSy Hoekstra: Well, okay, I have two main thoughts that I would like to highlight. One of them, I just once again, I would like everybody in the world to be making the distinction between prophets and conspiracy theorists [laughter] in terms of what people are asking you to do with the stories they're telling you. If they're asking you to do nothing except oppose all of the evil that is out there in the world, versus asking you to examine yourself and see how you can change and make the world a better place. If everybody in the world was on the lookout for that, man, we would be in a better place [laughs] in our society.Addressing How Conservatives Would Process This ConversationBut second, I just wanted to address some tension that I sometimes feel when we're having conversations like this that I'm sure other people feel as well.In conversations like these and a lot, we're talking about conservatives or White Evangelicals or people who believe in conspiracy theories or whatever. It's conversations about these people. These people over here, who we are not a part of. And we're trying to be humane by understanding what it is that, what makes them tick, what it is that puts them into the places where they are. But it's always from our perspective, how did they get into the position where they are so wrong. That's really what we're asking. And we're not just asking that about people who are involved in QAnon, we're asking that about just kind of everyday conservative White Evangelicals or White Christians of any kind, or lots [laughs] of people who just subscribe to whiteness, who may or may not actually be White.But the people who actually hold those positions would not really see this conversation as humane. They would mostly see it as condescending. They would mostly see it as, “You trying to understand how I got to the place where I'm so wrong, is not you being generous or kind, it's you being kind of a jerk.” [laughs]How to  Think about the Narratives We Have about People We Disagree withSy Hoekstra: And the thing that I always have to remember, and I just wanted to kind of flag this for our listeners, is that really that is kind of just the nature of disagreeing. Anybody who disagrees about anything has some story, conscious or not about why the other person is wrong. That's just the nature of the diversity of thought, just having people who disagree about stuff. That's going to be what happens in a society, you're going to be making up stories about the other people and why they disagree with you.But what you get the choice of doing is trying to understand people the best you can, or dehumanizing them and attributing bad faith to them. Or saying, “Oh, the reason you think that is because of, I don't know, you're just those people.” I'm not trying to come up with any coherent psychological framework that makes sense of where you are. I'm just saying, “Ah, you're just a bunch of racists.” Or it could be, “Oh, you're just Black people. You're just inferior.” Anything like that. Anything that's dehumanizing, whatever, you can choose to do that, or you can choose to understand people as best you can, given the reality that you disagree with them and think that they're wildly wrong and that their views are harmful. So I just want everyone to remember that. Everyone's doing this, it's just about how you go about it. I don't know. I hope other people also sometimes feel that tension and I'm not just addressing no one, but that was a thought that I thought it might be worth sharing. What do you think, Jonathan?Jonathan Walton: Well, I mean, it is very possible to disagree with someone without disrespecting or dehumanizing them.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: That is possible, but the amount of work that that takes, most of us are unwilling to do at this point in time. And what's sad about that is, and I think a couple of things that stood out to me, is that the main point of what he said in the essay he wrote for the anthology, and this is like, what am I going to gain if I hang out with this conspiracy theory? What am I going to keep, what am I going to get? What am I going to maintain if I believe this, and then if I not just think it, but believe it, and then act like it's true, and then enforce that reality on other people, what do I gain? And that to me, I think stands out to me because humanity, particularly though anyone upstream of a power dynamic has shown just an incredible capacity to enforce things that are not true to maintain power, authority, privilege and resources.Our Ability to Lie to Ourselves to Maintain OppressionOur capacity to innovate, to maintain lies, is fascinating. So when he talked about the Pentecostal who says Jesus is coming back in 1988 on January 13, and then Jesus doesn't show up, they got another revelation, and they don't lose any followers.Sy Hoekstra: This is in the essay, not in the interview.Jonathan Walton: Oh, so sorry.Sy Hoekstra: No, it's fine.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, but just that constant innovation and the individualization of your relationship with God, to the point that there's this entire reality that's constructed, and to deconstruct that reality would be so disorienting that we would rather just function as though it is true. So that confirmation bias where we then go seek out information then it sounds true, and so we add it to our toolkit to maintain our reality, that to me feels, and I need to think about this more, but feels at the root of a lot of injustices.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: So it's like, I won't change this, because it would change everything about my life, and I'd rather just not change. So I'm going to keep it this way. So whether it's men and patriarchy, able-bodied folks and disabled folks, Black folks and everybody else, wealthy people and poor people, we'd just rather not change. So I'm just, I'm not going to do that. And then Newt Gingrich said, “Well, it doesn't feel true, so the facts don't matter.”Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And that to me stood out. And then Kellyanne Conway, an iteration of him just coming back and saying, that just saying “alternative facts.” Like what are we talking about? [laughs] In some world that feels plausible, and because it feels plausible, it must be true. And then their entire apparatuses, religious, political, social, familial, built around protecting these realities. And if we could just shake ourselves away from that, that would be wonderful. But it is... [laughs] I mean, when Jesus says, “You shall learn the truth, and the truth shall set you free,” there is just freedom in living in the truth, like what is actually there. So the last thing I'll say is I appreciated his emphasis on the reality that truth and knowing happens in community.It does not happen like me going to the mountain, getting it, then coming down and living unaccountable to anyone. This is not how it works. I say this in every single prayer workshop I do, the Lord's Prayer starts off “Our Father,” not “My daddy” [Sy laughs]. It just doesn't start like that [laughs]. So how can we have a more collective, communal relationship with God and one another?Sy Hoekstra: The thing you just said about the skill of being able to maintain falsehood, it feels particularly important to me in maintaining systems of oppression after they've been built. Because they're usually built on a lie, and then at some point that lie can get exposed and that can threaten the whole system, but the system can survive by evolving. We've talked about this before. You can get rid of slavery, but the essential lie behind slavery stays and justifies every Jim Crow and segregation and the Black Codes and sharecropping and all that. So there's a refining almost of how good you can get at lying to people until you have a not insignificant number of people talking about lizard people [laughs].And it's just I'm almost sometimes impressed by how skilled evil is at understanding humanity. Does that make sense? [laughter]Jonathan Walton: Well, I mean, not to quote myself. In Twelve Lies I talked about how whiteness, White American folk religion, race-based, class-based, gender-based hierarchy is forever innovating. And the current container is in the United States of America, and it's being perfected.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, it's forever innovating, and it's good at it. That's what I'm saying. Which is why we spend so much time emphasizing how much you have to keep learning and being alert and praying. I'm going to say everything except “stay woke” [laughter]. Any other thoughts or should we get to our segment?Jonathan Walton: The only other thing I would say, and I almost started a whole thing about this, was just the importance of critical thinking. Just basic being willing to ask, why? Like, hey, Hillary Clinton is actually part of a race of lizard people that drink children's blood to get this chemical that's going to make them eternal. Why do you believe that [Sy laughs]? Like a person, a real human person went to a pizza place with a gun. That is a real thing that happened. Folks show up and ask questions. Like we cited this resource in a newsletter probably three years ago where the New York Times did this amazing podcast called Rabbit Hole. And this young man who worked an overnight job stocking shelves in one of the Midwestern states listened to podcasts every single night. Podcast and YouTube videos that drove him to become an extremist. And then he changed his podcast diet, he changed his YouTube diet, and then he realized, you know what, maybe I don't have to be afraid of everybody. He just started asking, why.There are people around him that said, “Hey, why do you believe the things that you do? Why are you becoming more afraid? Why do you feel the need to arm yourself? What do you think is going to happen?” Just people asking him questions, and he was willing to engage. So friends, just to love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. We can think. And that would be just a wonderful thing to push back against the anti academy thing that exists within modern Evangelicalism and most patterns of dominant religious thought.Sy Hoekstra: We can think, and that would be a wonderful thing. That's the pull quote.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Right.Sy Hoekstra: That's the t-shirt [laughs].Jonathan Walton: That's true.Which Tab Is Still Open?Sy Hoekstra: All right. Jonathan, let's get into our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, where we dive a little bit deeper. We're really shifting gears here from conspiracy theories [laughs] to Albert Camus, where we dive a little bit deeper into one of our recommendations from our newsletter. That newsletter is free at KTFPress.com. Get recommendations from us on discipleship and political education each week, along with resources to help you stay grounded and hopeful, news about KTF Press, all kinds of other great stuff at www.ktfpress.com. Jonathan, for you, out of all the stuff we've been writing about in the newsletter, Which Tab is Still Open, can you tell us about it?Jonathan Walton: Okay, friends, we are going from not thinking at all to thinking very deeply. Okay?Sy Hoekstra: Yes [laughter].Jonathan Walton: So this episode of a podcast called The Gray Area, where the host Sean Illing talks with a historian and philosopher, Robert Zaretsky about the politics and the ethics of Algerian philosopher Albert Camus. Again, we're going to think really hard, so go with me. Camus lived through the colonial occupation and the French annexation of Algeria. And he also lived through the violent struggle between Algerian rebel forces and the French army. He opposed France's policies of discrimination and oppression of the Algerian people, but never fully endorsed Algerian independence. So leftists thought of him as a moderate. Keep going with me, okay?He also believed that killing was wrong no matter who was doing it, and that neither the rebels nor the French had a monopoly on truth. But he was not abstract. He thought that violence was inevitable. He just couldn't justify it being used against innocent people, even in the name of freedom. He was not at all abstract or a systemic thinker. Like a lot of European philosophers, he was grounded in reality of day to day suffering that he had lived, and his conviction was that it was simply wrong.Prioritizing Vulnerable People in the Halls of PowerSo as I listened to this episode, the thing that just fascinated me about Camus is that it is possible to hang out in the biggest halls of academic power, to win awards, as he did for his literature and novels and essays, but to stay grounded in the village, to stay grounded in the community, to stay grounded in reality.Because I think something that struck me, my daughter does gymnastics and she got the chance to go to a state competition, and I was walking with her through a college campus, it was her first time on a college university campus. And I thought to myself, the distance between where my daughter is right now and the quote- unquote, grandeur of this university is all false. The reality is, these are just kids. This is the same kid that was in the neighborhood an hour ago that drove to this place to do flips and tricks in this new gym. The walls might be shinier, the mats might be cleaner, it may be a bigger stage, but the reality is we are just people doing the same things together in a different venue.So Camus, even though he was at a university, held the village with him, even though he was at a newspaper, held the village with him. Even though people were pushing back against him, held the village with him. So how can I Jonathan Walton, Ivy League educated person, or you listening with whatever background you have, hold fast to the reality that the things we say and do impact vulnerable people? I can't just say that there's an invasion at the southern border and not think that there are implications to that. I can't just say, grab women by their genitals. I can't just say that and not think that something's going to happen. The reality of the things that I say and the things that I do impacts people downstream of me is something I have to hold fast to.And just what Camus said, violence is inevitable and totally unjustifiable. I think that felt to me as one of the truest things I've heard in a very long time, is that, do I think that all of a sudden, on this side of heaven, violence is going to stop? No. At the same time, could I ever justify in the name of Jesus, violating the image of God in someone else for whatever cause? No, I cannot, because Jesus didn't do it. If violence was justifiable, then Jesus absolutely would have joined Peter and started the revolution, or did it beforehand, which I wrote about. If I was Jesus, I would have slapped Zacchaeus so hard in the moment.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Wait, Zacchaeus?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I wrote a piece called “Jesus Didn't Slap Zacchaeus” [Sy laughs]. Just that reality of even before Pilate, because, you know, there's other things happening with Pilate. But it's like if I was Jesus and Zacchaeus is standing right there. He stole money from my family for years and years and years and years. He betrayed our people. He did all that. And he's short, he's standing there, I'm stronger than him, the crowd is behind me. Pow! I would have done it and felt totally justified. But Jesus doesn't do that, just like he doesn't throw himself off the cross and start the revolution. Just like he doesn't call angels to intercede and do things on his behalf. He stays in line with his vision and mission and calling because he knows the cup that he has to drink. And so Camus messed me up.Sy Hoekstra: The thing that I wanted to highlight from the podcast was a story that I think the guests, I think Zaretsky told about Camus being confronted by a student from Algeria saying, “Why aren't you supporting the rebel forces who are fighting the French? Why haven't you, in an outspoken way, said that what they're doing is good?” And he says, “Look, at this very moment they are placing bombs under tram cars in Algiers, and my mother could be on one of those tram cars. And if what they are doing is justice, then I prefer my mother.”Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And I think that's kind of what you're talking about. Just this, he just had this wall in his mind where he's like, “You cannot, you can't kill my people and call it justice, and call it goodness. I will not let you do that.” And that's, I'll talk about this in a minute, the place that he leaves you in politically and morally and whatever, is very difficult, but you got to respect the integrity [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, absolutely. A thousand percent. The other thing that I really appreciate about this podcast is that Sean Illing, when he opens the podcast, addresses a reader or a listener who sent him a handwritten letter asking him why he had not addressed Israel, Palestine. And I respect him, and I respect his answer. And I suspect that other journalists and politicians are being confronted, whether on Instagram or not like, “Why aren't you doing x, y and z?” So I just appreciated Sean's, I'm talking about him like I know him, Sean Illing's candor and honesty to open the podcast. I think it just set the tone, really, really well.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, I totally agree with that.Jonathan Walton: So Sean, I mean, Sean, what do you think? So Sy, what do you think about the podcast? [laughs]Sy Hoekstra: I, Sean Illing, believe… [Jonathan laughs] Yeah, no, this podcast had me deep in my feelings is what I'm saying.Despair about Violence and Hope without Answers are Both BiblicalSy Hoekstra: First of all, I don't say this a lot, but I think French existentialism might actually be a decent way to respond to Pale

Today's cast: Domonique, Pablo, David, Chris, Billy, Charlie, and JuJu. Domonique, with his leg up on the desk, is obsessed with what he saw from Cooper Flagg yesterday on the Team USA Select Team. Can someone as freakishly athletic as Flagg still be sneaky athletic? Justin Timberfake gives us a breakdown and stands up to David's skepticism. Plus, David takes legitimate shots at Mental Health Month and Civil Rights that definitely aren't taken out of context and used against him. Then, Pablo has an important question: Where the hell did all our White American boys go? Also, LeBron James speaks on behalf of Bronny, Billy questions why Puerto Rico has an Olympic team, and David likes to be able to see the entrance of a restaurant. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Rex Chapman, former Great White Hope and author of the new memoir "It's Hard for Me to Live with Me," traces the fading of an endangered sports species, from his personal history as a basketball prodigy in the American South to the rise of the international game. This episode originally aired March 22, 2024. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Join hosts Amanda Seales, Supreme, and TJ on our latest episode as they talk about Juneteenth celebrations and how White Americans can respectfully and meaningfully celebrate this newly recognized federal holiday. With the entire nation now potentially having the day off, the discussion explores the best ways for all to participate in this day of historical and cultural importance. The episode also features a lively segment with comedian and founder of the Blapp App, Jon Laster, who brings his unique perspective to the conversation. In an intriguing twist, we challenge listeners to guess the identity of a special celebrity guest. This star candidly shares her journey of self-acceptance, revealing that despite being hailed as a Queen, she struggled with her self-image and had to learn to see her beauty through her own eyes. Tune in to hear these heartfelt stories and join in the celebration of Juneteenth with us!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Two-time Emmy and Three-time NAACP Image Award-winning television Executive Producer Rushion McDonald interviewed Jackson Dunbar.  RACE MATTERS IN PAIN MEDICINE: Resulting in the critical under medication of African Americans, who must "LIVE" with unbearable Chronic Pain; and the severe over medication of White Americans, which became a cause of the Opioid Crisis.Jackson Dunbar, Esq. -- A successful serial Entrepreneur and Family Man suffers from Chronic Pain caused by a car accident and failed back surgery. During his journey to become healthy, provide for his family and fight Chronic Pain; he discovered stark inequities in Pain Medicine that impact Men, Women and Children.A strong believer in Self-Help, Jackson Dunbar Esq. applied solutions-focused “Business Logic” to his own health – the results; he was able to Make Money, Lose 90lbs. and Thrive in Chronic Pain. His strategies are contained in this book for every Chronic Pain patient, Caregiver or Medical/Behavioral Health professionals to explore.Support the show: https://www.steveharveyfm.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's May7th. This day in 1882, Congress passes the Chinese Exclusion Act, aimed at curbing Chinese immigration as fears about Asian immigrants threatening White American jobs is on the rise.Jody, NIki, and Kellie discuss how the American economy relied on Chinese labor at the same time that policy sought to exclude Chinese immigrants -- and how the decades after the Civil War applied new pressures on race-based legislation around the country.This Day In Esoteric Political History is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX.Your support helps foster independent, artist-owned podcasts and award-winning stories.If you want to support the show directly, you can do so on our website: ThisDayPod.comGet in touch if you have any ideas for future topics, or just want to say hello. Follow us on social @thisdaypodOur team: Jacob Feldman, Researcher/Producer; Brittani Brown, Producer; Khawla Nakua, Transcripts; music by Teen Daze and Blue Dot Sessions; Audrey Mardavich is our Executive Producer at Radiotopia

Rex Chapman, former Great White Hope and author of the new memoir "It's Hard for Me to Live with Me," traces the fading of an endangered sports species, from his personal history as a basketball prodigy in the American South to the rise of the international game. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today on the Matt Walsh show, the media launches an all out assault on the true enemies of democracy: poor white people. Also, the Biden Administration struggles to evade questions and accountability as yet another American citizen is murdered by an illegal alien. A school in Oklahoma holds a fundraising event featuring a display so revolting and grotesque that I don't even want to describe it. And a large group of scientists are asked whether sex is binary. The answer should have been yes from 100 percent of respondents. But that's not what happened. Ep.1320 - - -  DailyWire+: Get your Jeremy's Chocolate here: https://bit.ly/45uzeWf Get your Matt Walsh flannel here: https://bit.ly/3EbNwyj    - - -  Today's Sponsors: Birch Gold - Text "WALSH" to 989898, or go to https://birchgold.com/Walsh, for your no-cost, no-obligation, FREE information kit.  PreBorn! - Help save babies from abortion: https://preborn.com/Matt  Tax Network USA - Seize control of your financial future! Call 1(800)245-6000 or visit http://www.TNUSA.com/Walsh  - - - Socials: Follow on Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Rv1VeF Follow on Instagram: https://bit.ly/3KZC3oA Follow on Facebook: https://bit.ly/3eBKjiA Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/3RQp4rs