Podcasts about Central Illinois

Author Ken Liu was born in China in 1976, and his family emigrated to the U.S. when he was 11. He has published multiple collections of short stories and an epic series of novels. Several of his works have been made into films , including “Good Hunting,” which was part of the Netflix animated anthology series Love, Death and Robots. He's also known for translating the Chinese sci-fi series known as The Three Body Problem. Based in the Boston suburbs, Liu visited Central Illinois back in 2024 for a talk at the Champaign Public Library on art and artificial intelligence. That's when we first aired this conversation, in which he talks about trading a traditional job for writing full time, what's unique about Chinese science fiction, and why he's excited for the possibilities of artificial intelligence.

Operation Cookie Share is underway at Hickory Point Bank as HPB's Jeff Raes and Beth Allen of the Girl Scouts of Central Illinois explain how to donate cookies to the troops, first responders and healthcare workers. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hickory Point Bank on Wabash Avenue hosts the show and the annual Operation Cookie Share as the Girl Scouts of Central Illinois collect donations to provide cookies to military troops, first responders and healthcare workers as Luke Worrell of Worrell Land Services and HPB's Connor Etheridge stop by. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A look at the week in Central Illinois and across the world from Peoria's breaking news station, 1470 and 100.3 WMBD for the week of 5/31 - 6/6.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dianne shares personal stories and revelation concerning faith, trust and healing, as well as important principles listed below. These are foundations that Holy Spirit laid, that still remain a part of the Vineyard Church of Central Illinois.- JESUS WILL ALWAYS BE THE HERO. HE IS THE HEALER.- We will always believe the incredible truth that our God is a God of healing. He wants us whole in every way, and He wants us to give that away to others.- We will always welcome and honor the Holy Spirit and His fresh infilling.- We will always make God's Word our top priority for studying, meditating, confessing, and believing.- We will always make faith a priority — trusting God through difficult times, persevering, worshiping and praising, and hanging on no matter what.- We will always believe in the power of prayer.- We will always be hungry, humble, and teachable and stay committed to doing life in community--the church family.

I'm thrilled to welcome back a previous guest today! Her first appearance was in Episode 232 back in 2020. She helps us get clear on something that confuses many coaches: What does it mean to be “trauma-informed,” and why does it matter for every single one of our clients? We will uncover the neuroscience, practical moves, and the truth about what's happening in the nervous systems of the people we coach. We take a closer look at the difference between coaching and therapy, why there is always an overlap, and where the dividing line lies between big emotions, coaching, and therapy. Join us!Dr. Kemia Sarrah, “Dr. K”, is an internist, educator, physician, and leadership coach. Her subspecialty is a focus on leadership and coaching in and beyond severe burnout, toxic stress, and trauma. She is the founder and CEO of Lodestar, a professional coaching and consulting firm that utilizes a 360-degree trauma-aware container for coaching, coach training, leadership training, and Justice, Equity, Diversity & Inclusion facilitation. Her medical degree and Master of Public Health are from the University of Utah School of Medicine, and she currently serves as an Adjunct Assistant Professor at Southern Illinois University School of Medicine in the Office of Equity, Diversity & Inclusion. Dr. K is a gifted storyteller and sought-after speaker with a deeply intuitive communication style, and her trademarked coaching paradigm has a lens focused on the secondary trauma that is part of daily life for high-achieving, hard-driving, and highly skilled professionals across various industries. Blending extensive experience with balance, humor, and endless empathy, Dr. K has helped countless physicians and professionals rediscover their professional pride, joy, and internal balance. She lives with her physician-husband on a small, working farm in Central Illinois, where they are raising four sons and too many farm critters to count.Show Highlights:The question at the crux of it all: How can coaching and trauma co-exist in the same work?All Lodestar programs are dual-accredited by the ICF and the ACCME, meeting the rigorous standards for both coaching and medical education.Understanding the overlaps and distinctions between coaching and therapyPositioning yourself as a coach who is trauma-informed and trauma-responsive, being a “skilled holder” of what the client brings into the conversationLaying the foundation of the coach/client relationship in the beginningTrauma: more than events in time, but exposure over time (“The dose makes the poison.”)Understanding stress (not always a bad thing!), its effects, like loneliness and uncertainty, and long-term stress exposureThe neuroscience of the “unsafe” brain: It cannot update its predictions, learns the wrong things, and cannot differentiate between predator threats and social threats.Recognizing the path forward with our clients: The stories our nervous system tells follow the state of our nervous system as a whole.“We are all the walking wounded. What you are experiencing is very real.”The key message from Dr. K: “Coaches are uniquely pre-set to do this exceedingly well. The beauty of this skillset is that it's rooted in the similarities of our nervous system; these skills are universally teachable, learnable, and applicable.”Resources:Connect with Dr. Kemia SarrafWebsite, Facebook, and SCS Episode 232Connect with MegExplore the STaR Coach Show Mentor Program. We are enrolling NOW for this fall!Join the STaR Coach Community. Become a member today!Subscribe to the STaR Coach Show YouTube Channel!Explore over 480 past episodes and other helpful resources at www.STaRcoachshow.com.Mentioned in this episode:Join the Star Coach Masterclass!Learn the 6 C's to your Coaching Masterplan.

June 3, 2026 - Tanya Andricks and Dr. Amanda Rubush of DMH joined Byers & Co to talk about Dr. Rubush's path to Memorial, her preference to keep Central Illinois as her home, and the importance of preventative medicine. Listen to the podcast now!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

June 1, 2026 - Amber Kaylor of Ronald McDonald House Charities of Central Illinois joined Byers & Co to talk about how the current economy is impacting their guests, ways people can get involved, watching sports with her family, and her time on Byers & Co. Listen to the podcast now!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A look at the week in Central Illinois and across the world from Peoria's breaking news station, 1470 and 100.3 WMBD for the week of 5/24 - 5/30.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

For this special full band interview, heavy Central Illinois rock band heaving. joins A-SIDES for Episode 233. Following the release of a new single titled "Faces On You" onto Bandcamp and all music streaming platforms on May 20th, the band discusses their origins, favorite bands and artists in their formative years, setting themselves apart, and even what they hope to accomplish throughout 2026. Thanks to Morgan, Bowie, Trevor and Tyler for the fun conversation. Check out their music and merch on Bandcamp and follow them on their social media pages for new music and show dates! 

Greg and Phil talk with Kent Kramer, the new CEO of Goodwill Industries of Central Illinois, about the growth of new store locations and the deeper mission behind Goodwill. He explains how Goodwill is about much more than shopping and donating, highlighting the organization’s support for veterans, job training opportunities, employment programs, and the positive impact thrifting can have on both individuals and the community.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Greg and Phil talk with Hannah Daly of Big Brothers Big Sisters of Central Illinois and David Poehls about the urgent need for more volunteer mentors (“Bigs”) in Peoria. They highlight the organization’s mission of building strong, positive relationships between mentors and youth, and discuss the upcoming “60 Bigs in 60 Days” campaign, kicking off with a happy hour event on June 11th from 4:30–6:30 PM, focused on recruiting new mentors. David also shares his personal experience as a “Big,” reflecting on how being part of the program for five years has positively impacted his life and how meaningful and enjoyable the mentoring relationship has been. For more information, visit https://hoibbbs.org/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What Books are Healthiest for Your Tween or Teen an Interview with Betsy Farquhar and Hayley Morell (Episode 293)   *Disclaimer: Some of this content is not intended for young audiences. Please use discretion.   Proverbs 4:7 NIV “The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.”   *Transcription Below*   Betsy Farquhar holds Masters degrees in Children's Literature and Information and Library Science. She taught middle and high school English, homeschooled her three children, and has served on many book award committees.   Hayley Morell loves reading, writing, trying new recipes, knitting, or chatting with her parrot. Hayley loves traveling and lived abroad in Europe and Asia. She and her husband and infant live in Wisconsin in an old house overflowing with books and are active in their local community.   Their Website, Book, and Social Media Handles: Instagram @redeemed_reader and Facebook: @redeemedreader   Thank you to our sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are some benefits of reading and why is it worthwhile to devote our time to curating a healthy diet of books? Can you elaborate on why the Young Adult or YA category is the most controversial? What is on your radar for genres or books that will require even more discernment in the future?   Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: 21. Promoting a Family Culture of Reading with Megan Kaeb 22. Inspiring Your Children to Become Readers, Part Two with Megan Kaeb 253. Low Tech Parenting with Erin Loechner 273. Wise Living: Why to Get Outside, and Travel, and Read Aloud with Amber O'Neal Johnston   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*‍   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:46) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.   Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at lemangm.com.   My guests for today are Betsy Farquhar and Haley Morrill, two of the four authors of this book, The Redeemed Reader, which is also the name of the website that they run together where they have thousands of book reviews for children and tweens and teens.   We all know that books are so powerful, so it's vitally important that we're discerning both for what we're intaking and the filters that we use to allow our children to engage with books in our home. We're going to sprinkle book recommendations throughout this episode, and you're also going to learn some surprising things, such as more details about the YA or young adult category. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Betsy and Haley.   Betsy Farquhar: (1:48 - 1:49) Thanks. It's good to be here.   Laura Dugger: (1:50 - 1:57) I would love to just start out hearing the way that the two of you found your way into the work that you get to do today.   Betsy Farquhar: (1:58 - 2:42) Mine started way back in the 1900s when I was in college. I did my senior thesis on children's literature, George MacDonald, and that led to a children's literature class my last semester, which led me to grad school with one of my now co-workers, but at the time fellow students and friends, and we got our master's in children's literature. And then rabbit trail, lots of detours, children, marriage. She and I started a blog back when those were cool and hip, and it was reviewing children's books and that was just for fun. And then we connected with Janie and Emily from Redeemed Reader. Through that blog venue, we were commenting on each other's blogs, and they brought us on board. And so here we are 15 years later.   Hayley Morell: (2:43 - 3:38) And for me, I was a high schooler. I was homeschooled. I loved reading.   So, I started my own blog back in the teenage years and I was always looking for book recommendations and came upon Redeemed Reader in the early days. I turned out they were looking for an intern. I started interning and at the end of my internship, Emily Witten, who was our founder, asked if I'd like to stay on.   And that was 14 or 15 years ago now. So, I was younger. And so, I had a period at college.   I studied at Boyce College. I worked in children's ministry and worked as a private tutor. So, a lot of interactions with children.   I was known as the babysitter with the book bag for a number of years. And now I've got my own little, and so I'm in the land of board books and happily working at Redeemed Reader.   Laura Dugger: (3:39 - 3:49) I love hearing that. And if people are watching this through video, can you both just say your name, so we know who's Betsy and who's Haley? I'm Haley.   Betsy Farquhar: (3:50 - 3:51) I'm Betsy.   Laura Dugger: (3:52 - 4:07) Okay, wonderful. Thank you for that. And at Redeemed Reader, I'm assuming you have so many book recommendations to try and read and review.   So, how do you even determine which books you are going to review?   Hayley Morell: (4:08 - 7:49) So, right now we are wrapping up one of the things we love doing, which is providing award coverage. In January is when the American Library Association announces their awards, and they like to recognize the best middle grade with the Newberry, the best picture books with the Caldecott, and then a number of other awards. We know that those books are going to be going into lots of libraries and schools.   And so, we like to provide coverage of that and review those books that we know parents are going to be seeing on shelves and wondering, is this a good book? Should we be reading this? What do we want to check out?   We also like to watch what is popular. What is causing discussion? So, several years ago, that was The Hunger Games.   And there was a lot of questions about dystopia. Should we be reading this? Is this helpful?   Do I want my teen reading The Hunger Games? More recently, some popular middle grade series like Keeper of the Lost Cities have had a lot of parents asking, what is this series? Is there anything I should know about?   And so, we try to have a balanced review. We review books that you're going to find at the library. We also like to review books that maybe you wouldn't know about.   So, a smaller Christian imprint, for example, we like to review that type of book to encourage readers to read widely, to read Christian authors, to read secular authors. We like books. And so, we each bring our own specialty to the team and experience.   Janie, who's our senior editor, is a children's author. She loves history. And so, as the community relations manager, I tend to handle review requests.   So, when somebody asks us, can you review this book? It's popular. Or I'm an author.   I wrote a book. Can you review it? I'll look at the book.   I'll look at how hard is it to get? We do try to review books that are easy to find, that you might find in your local library. But then I'll look at our team.   So, for Janie, if it is going to be a nonfiction history, let's say for a 10 to 12-year-old, I know that's going to be up her alley. Meanwhile, Betsy loves poetry. She loves nature, nonfiction.   Betsy is a very, I'd say you're one of our Renaissance people. And so, I know Betsy is going to be inclined towards maybe a novel and verse. And she also likes dealing with high school books.   You've got that teacher education background, where if it is an epic poem, Betsy is going to be our reviewer. Megan is our amazing picture book author. She's super creative, loves picture books.   Megan is who I turn to when I find a picture book. Meanwhile, I used to handle as I was the team member of the team and then turned into my 20s. So, I gravitated toward YA, and I still love a good YA fantasy.   But I am now in board book land and picture books. So, I have been expanding my reach. I do serve on our middle grade fiction, so I can help out with middle grades.   But each of us will flex in, flex out. Megan has a large family of boys. And so, if it's a boy book, she is a great person.   We love to send those to her to see if her boys like them. And that's, I could keep going because we love books, but that's a big snapshot.   Laura Dugger: (7:50 - 8:09) That's so helpful because you cover such a wide variety of books throughout your team. And as curators of book reviews, what questions are you most commonly receiving, both from young people and maybe their parents as well?   Hayley Morell: (8:12 - 9:22) I think we often get questions like, is this book clean? Is this book safe? And we like to kind of change that question.   And we like to say, why is the content in this book? Because that can be different, you know, depending on something that is in a picture book, which wouldn't be appropriate for an age, could be very appropriate for a YA book and a great discussion starter. So, it definitely depends on the content and what audience and what age of the audience we're dealing with.   So, we try to, as people ask us, well, is this safe or is this clean? Should I read this? We want to build discernment and encourage parents to interact, parents and educators to interact with our reviews.   And they know their reader. They know how their reader is going to receive a book. And what questions might come up.   And so, we like to help interact with that conversation. And then there's another kind of question we often get, which I'm going to let Betsy answer.   Betsy Farquhar: (9:23 - 10:10) The other question is, my kid likes blank kind of book or is blank kind of reader. What do I get for him or her? And so that, of course, can vary widely.   But people love to know what book is right for my family or my classroom or my child. And so, we try to write our reviews with that question in mind, not to make a blanket statement, you should all read this book, or nobody should read this book, but to give parents and educators enough information to make that decision for themselves. And then we started doing these reels on Instagram, where we're pretending we're answering a customer service phone call with questions we've been asked, right?   My son only likes video games, or my daughter doesn't want fantasy, but she reads these kinds of books. And so, we try to help people think that through.   Laura Dugger: (10:10 - 10:14) So, that's really how we continue.   Hayley Morell: (10:15 - 11:09) Sorry. And one more question that we often get because we are book reviewers is, will you review my book? And so, at that point, we do have a process.   We encourage people to submit a request. And it could be maybe a book they're curious about and would just like a review from us, or they're an author or a publisher. And so, in that case, we direct them to our review submission form.   And like I said before, we are definitely looking for books that are easy to find. That will encourage us to review a book, because while we love books that are like smaller imprints, et cetera, and we do try to provide coverage for that, we also are aware that a lot of our audience only has their library or their school library. And so, we are trying to do books that are easy to find and accessible for our readers.   Laura Dugger: (11:10 - 11:40) Okay, that's really helpful to hear what people are writing in and asking you about. And so, hearing the sweet spot from each team member, and then Betsy, how you mentioned people love to know what's right for my family. So, no, this won't fit every situation. But can you give examples of maybe books that the four of you find yourselves recommending quite a bit because they are ones that fit a wide range of people?   Betsy Farquhar: (11:41 - 13:39) Of course, we put a ton of recommendations in our book that came out in the fall. And those are sort of our most common recommendations. We have a place on our website called Starred Reviews.   And those are the best of the best in our mind of their genre. So, if you're looking for graphic novels, and you see a star on a graphic novel, it's because we think this is an amazing graphic novel. So, that's just a helpful framework, because of course, people are all over the map, right?   We're in the midst of whittling down our Book of the Year for this year. And we also have our Reader's Choice Book of the Year. And those books are ones we tend to recommend all the time.   So, I'm going to give you just some samples of what are on our Reader's Choice list, because that is a public list. And I can't reveal the 2025 releases we're considering for the other one. But for our Book of the Year for the Reader's Choice this year, we have The Found Boys by S. D. Smith.   We've got, I've got them all right here, Olivetti by Allie Millington. There's The Hiding Place: A Graphic Novel and the Watership Down: The Graphic Novel that are both really fun. People have really enjoyed them.   We've got the first book in The Dream Keeper Saga by Kathryn L. Butler. That's a Christian fantasy series. We've got Enemies in the Orchard, which is the novel in verse about World War II.   One Big Open Sky by Lesa Cline-Ransome, which is another novel in verse about some Black pioneers going west on a wagon train. And that might be, oh, The Puppets of Spelhorst by Kate DiCamillo. Kate DiCamillo is a super prolific author, and we do recommend her books often.   Her book, Ferris, was our Book of the Year last year. So, there's just a quick sampling of some middle grades' books. And middle grades, for people who don't know, that's the broad fourth through eighth grade age range.   You think of like ages 8 to 12. And they tend to be the broadest in audience. You can usually read those aloud to a younger audience, or even teenagers might find them enjoyable.   So, that's a good start.   Hayley Morell: (13:40 - 14:29) I do think one of the beauties of our team is that we've worked together for a long time. And we trust our team. And so, I will happily recommend a book that I haven't seen, but I know Betsy loved and reviewed.   And it's so fun reading the same books. So, like right now, since we're on award committees, we are seeing a lot of the same books and getting to talk about them. But I think it's one of our strengths that we each bring something to the table.   And I would say if someone really likes history, I'm going to look at what Janie has loved recently, because I know she is looking for those good new history books. And its so fun recommending books and getting to play to our strengths.   Laura Dugger: (14:31 - 16:16) And that comes out in book recommendations. When you're passionate about what you're reading, it's naturally contagious, I think. And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.   If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle.   This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.   I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.   Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them on 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.   I'm curious, over the years, what character qualities have you noticed in people who are now adults, but they originally fell in love with reading in childhood?   Betsy Farquhar: (16:17 - 17:39) So, that's a pretty broad question. I would think, I'm just going to paint this with broad strokes. People who read typically are people who think, and especially in a day and age where we're bombarded with screens and soundbites all the time, if somebody can actually read an analog book from start to finish, then typically they're going to be able to think about ideas in a different way than people who are just existing on soundbites.   So, the ability to think is pretty critical. There's been a lot of studies that show that people who read also have better empathy. It's just a way we can sort of step into somebody else's shoes, especially if we're reading a story about somebody who perhaps lived in a different time period, or they're from a different ethnic background, or even if there's just a different socioeconomic level, it helps us understand the people on the other side a little bit better.   So, that kind of, this twin characteristics of empathy and thoughtfulness, I think are pretty common. We all go through seasons where we don't read as much, whether we're stressed or perhaps, my kids are in college and they were avid readers in high school, and they're not doing a lot of reading for fun right now, but they know how to read and they enjoy it. So, they'll probably come back to that in the future.   So, I think that's a helpful thing to remember, just because your eight-year-old loves reading, when he or she is 18, they may not be reading as much, and that's okay. They'll probably come back to it.   Hayley Morell: (17:40 - 17:53) And I've definitely seen that with younger siblings too, burning out and then all of a sudden back, asking for book recommendations. And it's fun to know that reading habits stick around.   Laura Dugger: (17:55 - 18:38) That's well said. And yet, even if they lie dormant for a while, they may be reawakened in adulthood. But I think I find it's less common for someone to fall in love with reading for their first time as an adult.   So, I think it's very beneficial as parents to cultivate or instill this love of reading in our children. And you two are the experts. So, I'd love to hear your take on this.   What are some of the benefits of reading? And why is it worthwhile to devote our time to curating a healthy diet of books, both for ourselves, but especially for our children?   Hayley Morell: (18:39 - 20:06) Betsy, I think you might've said this once, but I think it came up as we were talking about writing our book. As I have a small child who's just starting to notice pages and we're reading board books and he's trying to reach for it. I remember someone once said that reading to a very young child, they're not registering the story yet.   They might be registering the pictures. But the time that we're taking reading, when I read to him or when my husband gets home from work and they read one board book together, he's not really looking at the book as much as he's looking at our face and hearing our voice. And books are becoming something that we do together and that we do as a family.   And it's a way that we're building relationships. And I think that's a great encouragement to me to keep reading. And I have nieces and nephews who loved books.   And then that's something that we enjoy the story together and we'll laugh over silly stories and we'll read. But I think that it's something that as we want to like curate our collections but also think about how are we encouraging children to love reading. It's if they see us reading too and see us enjoying books and still picking up a book ourselves.   I'm not sure, Betsy, if you have anything that you would add to that.   Betsy Farquhar: (20:07 - 20:41) Well, I just think the better we read anything, the better equipped we are to read the story in the Bible because God revealed himself to us in a written book. And so, we're sort of flexing those muscles when we read. And the more we can engage with what we read, even if it's a picture book with a five-year-old, we're beginning that practice of developing discernment.   And that's part of discipling our children. So, I do think it's all part of the same picture. It's not going to look the same for every family but just working on developing those muscles of discernment and reading intelligently, that's going to go a long way.   Laura Dugger: (20:43 - 22:07) I love how you bring in the Bible that is so important. And I found myself even just this week at bedtime praying over our daughters that they would have a love for the written word because that is what God has gifted to us. And I love how the word became flesh and dwelt among us, but he is the original storyteller and has instilled that in each of us.   And I think just a very practical way at any age to help our children cultivate this love is by reading aloud. And we recently were on a family vacation and had a rental vehicle and we had a long drive-in front of us and listened to the radio for a while. But we also like this tradition of reading one book aloud on a vacation.   So, we remember our time in Florida from one year was a place to hang the moon and it was a different book this year, but I get car sick while we're driving. So, I couldn't read it aloud. So, our oldest daughter read it aloud for all of us.   And I realized how much attention and focus is required and imagination to paint these pictures of the characters in your mind. And I just thought, wow, there's so much learning that's going on even as the one listening to the book, not reading the actual words.   Betsy Farquhar: (22:09 - 22:15) And a place to hang the moon was our reader's choice favorite last year. So, lots of our readers have read that one.   Laura Dugger: (22:16 - 22:36) It's such a good one. And as wonderful as books are, they're also powerful and influential. So, as you've reiterated, discernment is required.   And I'd love for you to elaborate on why the young adult, or the YA category can be the most controversial.   Hayley Morell: (22:38 - 25:12) Young adult protagonists are often upper teenage years. And so, we like to say, as we mentioned in our book, no topic is out of bounds. And this means that there can be a lot going on and a lot of messiness.   We like to use that word as we're talking about that. And sometimes the messiness can be thought provoking. Sometimes it can be provocative.   And we have noticed often YA deals with questions of identity. Who am I? How do I relate to the world?   And that can look like lots of different things. It can include sexual identity, which can lead to a lot of conversations. But something that we like to lean into as we look at the YA genre is that in a world where everything is constantly shifting, as you have a teen and they're encountering conversations at school, conversations with peers, or using social media, having an ever-changing feed that I can look at my Instagram feed and it's going to look nothing like a teenager's Instagram feed.   Even if you're looking at the same account, the way that reels are coming, they're getting bombarded with messages. The messiest of books is static. And you both can look at that and read the cover, read what's going on, and talk about it.   And you both have the same place to have a conversation. And so, we like to lean into that when we're looking at YA books and realize they are powerful, but they're powerful conversation starters. And books like, Betsy recently read a book, and it's called Bright Red Fruit.   And it's a cautionary tale about a teenage girl who has a relationship with an older man that's predator. And he is taking advantage, trying to separate her that is an excellent conversation starter. It's not an easy book to read.   You're reading it, getting worried for this girl, but it's a great way to say, let's read this book and let's talk about what a healthy relationship looks like, because this is not healthy. So, we love YA books that can provoke conversations. And sometimes it might be you both looking at a book and going, you know, this doesn't seem helpful.   We don't need to finish this book. It's okay to stop reading a book and return it to the library.   Laura Dugger: (25:12 - 26:11) I completely agree. And even with that YA section, one of our daughters was just saying, when I go through that section of the library, it seems like every single book is about death. And it did provoke a good conversation from that.   But I think it was Sarah McKenzie who was the first person that I heard explain the difference between a middle grade novel or YA because from my understanding, middle grade isn't just for those grades. You even said younger ages can enjoy that and older. I have friends that only read middle grade novel now as adults.   So, it's not just your reading level, but YA has different rules on it where I think you said anything goes, any topic is allowed. So, it doesn't mean that YA is necessarily what you have to graduate to once you enter high school. Is that right?   Hayley Morell: (26:11 - 27:06) But yes, it's typically and the funny thing that you kind of leaned into it, some middle grade books definitely deal with coming of age or might even have a teenage protagonist, but it's written in a way that a 12 year old could read it and enjoy it. When you get into like the higher YA, it is more like young adults, people starting their own lives, having adventures, leaving home, going on quests. And like you said, bringing in some heavier topics.   Now we have seen since like in the last five years, a lot of books dealing with death and grieving that are hitting that middle grade genre too, which can be helpful. But at the same time, if you're just reading sad books, you might want to change your diet and find a fun, happy book too.   Laura Dugger: (27:07 - 27:31) Again, in a conversation like this, it has to be more general of a recommendation, but there's such a difference, I'm sure in YA for your 13-year-old versus your 18-year-old. So, for someone who does want to dip their toe into some YA books, do you have anyones that you find yourselves recommending again for that age group?   Betsy Farquhar: (27:32 - 28:42) I'll jump in here. We've got a couple of book lists on our site that are, have actual number ages attached to them. Thirteen books for 13-year-old boys is a great one for that younger teen audience.   But those tend to be, they're grappling with some coming-of-age issues, but they tend to be more adventure based in a sense and more fun. I think of the Ranger's Apprentice series by John Flanagan. There's a little bit of language.   There's a little bit of romance, but it's very teen, young teen friendly. And its actually kind of a good picture of men being heroes and women are heroes in very, like the men are men, they're very masculine. And the women, even if they're part of the army, so to speak, they're still doing it in a feminine way.   So, it's just kind of a nice sort of entry into some of those conversations. But then if you fast forward, by the time teens are in their upper teens, they should be able to read adult books too. And so, you might find yourself reading something like Peace Like a River by Leif Enger, which is very much written for an adult market, but very accessible to teens if they're willing to grapple with some of those ideas.   But that book's going to be a lot heavier than a book for a 13-year-old.   Laura Dugger: (28:44 - 29:05) That's helpful just to have examples. And I think it's also helpful to put this into context by reflecting back through time. So, just in America, what have you learned about the trends and the changes in libraries, specifically over the past 75 years?   Betsy Farquhar: (29:06 - 31:30) So, I have a library degree too, so I love talking about libraries. In library science, we have a rule, it's called Ranganathan's Law, and it simply says every book is reader, which means that for every book out there, there's a reader out there. And libraries take that very seriously.   No book is off the table for a public library. We had an entire class on serving our community. So, the goal behind a public library has always been to serve the community in which it's placed.   Now that's changed a lot as our society has changed a lot. So, before World War II, most libraries were funded very locally, local taxes, they may have even been subscription-based, but after we have all these army vets coming back after World War II, they're going back to school later. We have this explosion of information access for people who can't get it.   So, the Library Services Act was the first one. We've had lots of iterations since then. Now it includes technology.   It started with giving federal dollars to rural libraries, and it's continued even to big cities now, but the focus is still on services for people who can't access them as easily. So, free Wi-Fi was a really big one before Wi-Fi was as broad spread. There are services for the blind and for other communities that might not be able to read as easily.   So, it's still sort of an information hub, but I think that makes us uncomfortable sometimes as Christians because our society has changed so much that we go into a library now and we're like, I would never read this book to my kid. Well, but your neighbor might, and the public library is not the parent of your child. The public library is serving the whole community.   So, go ahead and request them to stock some Christian books. A lot of them will buy the Christian books that you request because they want to serve you. You're part of their community.   So, I think we just have to remember that their goal is broader. My goal as a parent is far more niche than my public librarian's goal to serve her community. She's not my enemy.   Even if she's picking things for story time that I would never read to my children, it doesn't mean I have to ignore the library. I can love that those are image bearers. I can respectfully bring up my concerns, and I can suggest books and I can build a relationship with this fellow image bearer in my community.   It can be a great mission field. So, yes, libraries are continually evolving. That's why they now offer you can even check out sports equipment.   They're still trying to provide information and resources for the community.   Hayley Morell: (31:32 - 32:01) I just recommended or requested two books that were Christian picture books that aren't in our system. And one of our librarians helped me fill out the form explaining why I wanted them. And I just got a notification yesterday. Both are on hold for me and have been added to our library. So, it's exciting. If you don't ask, you don't know if you're going to get it. I honestly was surprised. I was like, oh, they actually got the books I wanted.   Laura Dugger: (32:02 - 32:56) It is so exciting when they do that. I love our local library, and the staff is just wonderful to work with. So, that's great encouragement for us to get to know them by name and have a relationship with them.   And just to zero in on that one piece after World War II, I think that's tied to what so many people call is it the golden age of children's literature where some people will say we only read books before a certain year, like mid-1900s. But I love that you guys review even modern books because it's not that it was all better back then. But I do think there's a piece of truth in it that libraries had to be so discerning back then with less funding.   And so maybe they had the best of the best available and then funds came in and we can have a wider range.   Betsy Farquhar: (32:56 - 33:40) There's so many factors here historically because we could really nerd out, but I won't. But what's also being reflected is simply printmaking technology because the ability to print paperbacks, paperbacks as like a thing weren't a thing until the 20th century. So, books were incredibly expensive.   You've got all those factors playing in too. So, not only are they getting different funding, but there is an explosion in printmaking technology that allows publishers to produce inexpensive books. And that allows families and libraries to buy more books.   It's not dissimilar to the way we have digital media now that's got its own sort of technology behind the distribution of the digital books. So, there's a lot of factors involved in that.   Laura Dugger: (33:41 - 34:03) That is fascinating. I'm glad you brought that up. And like I said, so helpful to look back.   But now if we're also looking forward, I'd really appreciate your perspective on where we're headed. So, what's on your radar for genres or books that may require even more discernment in the future?   Hayley Morell: (34:04 - 37:18) So, right now, romanticy is having a moment and that's a genre that is getting a lot of attention. There's a lot of marketing using that language. And I think it's really helpful to realize this is a marketing term.   So, Fourth Wing became very popular. That is a book that is for adults. It has a lot of explicit sex.   But it used the term romanticy and it sold very well. And so suddenly all books that are fantasy and have some romance are being called romanticy. And that could mean a lot of different things.   So, what we're seeing is this term that if it's used in the YA genre, we don't know what it means going into a book. It might mean a lot of focus on romance and some unhelpful sex. It also could mean a really fun fantasy that happens to have a romantic angle.   So, I recently gave a starred review to A Forgery of Fate by Elizabeth Lim. That's a Chinese fairy tale, beauty and the beast type story. And it is excellent.   One of the marketing terms that used was romanticy. And it just is a wonderful fantasy story that has this thread of romance perfectly appropriate for teen readers. But that is a term that we're currently aware of.   And this is a genre that we want to notice and take with a grain of salt. It's kind of a contrast on the other side. It's differentiating between romanticy has romance and then there's cozy fantasy, which is more cottage core, comfortable feeling.   It also could have sex. So, there's, as we run into this fantasy genre, there's a lot of things going on, but it's definitely having a moment. And it's just nice to know what's going on and what cozy fantasy is going to be focused on character development, like very like a shopkeeper who inherits a cottage with a garden and grows mushrooms.   That's cozy fantasy. Romanticy is a chosen one motif who's at some dramatic school. Dark academia is also having a moment where it's a lot of angst, a lot of little bit of horror.   And some of it can be done really well because it's popular. There's a lot of it out there. And so, some discernment is required as you're figuring out, is this a book for adults or is this a book for teens?   I think I would be cautious with books that are being marketed for adults as romanticy because you could run into some things that are meant for an adult audience and might not be helpful for that teenage reader of yours.   Betsy Farquhar: (37:18 - 38:06) The only other thing I'll add, and this is sort of a different approach, but we're seeing a lot of genre blending. It's getting harder to say this is a mystery or this is a fantasy, even this is a historical fiction story. So, I think genre fiction in general is kind of having a moment.   And when we say genre fiction, we really mean things like mystery, science fiction, romanticy, these sort of sub genres that are underneath the broader terms of realistic fiction or speculative fiction is an umbrella term that includes fantasy, dystopia, science fiction, magical realism, all the little niche downstream sort of sub genres. But we're seeing some really interesting things. It's going to be harder to automatically decide I like that genre, or I don't because they're just mixing and matching elements from all over the place.   Laura Dugger: (38:08 - 39:15) Mm-hmm. That is helpful. I had never heard of some of those things that you just mentioned, but also I'd love for you to respond after I shared this story.   I had a previous guest, Megan Cabe, who used to run a blog. It was called Young Book Love and she would review, I think, middle grade novels, maybe a little bit of YA, but she would say most topics are beneficial to read, even if they're difficult, what you all refer to as messy books. But she did provide extra caution and just said she strongly advised against explicit sexual content because those mental images have a way of sticking with us.   And I agree with her. I would also add sometimes what's not appropriate for our children is not appropriate for us either. And just a funny way to remember this, I had a loved one recently who just said, “You can't sugarcoat a turd. I'd love your take on all of that.”   Hayley Morell: (39:17 - 41:54) So, we like to use the term beyond ever after when we're dealing with this idea of what romance is helpful, what is not helpful. And like you said, the age of the reader comes into play because something that might be a good conversation point with your teen, let's say dealing with a first kiss, that is something that is good to be thinking about and be talking about having healthy conversations about what is God's design for sexuality. And as you are starting to notice the opposite sex and have feelings, what do we do with those?   And again and again, it's been shown that it is helpful to have these conversations because if we're not having a conversation about what is God's view and what does God want us to do with this, our young people are going to turn to the world, which is very happy to give them a lot of talk about sexuality, but some very different perspectives and answers that are focused on yourself, let's you do you versus no, what has God given us and how are we going to steward this?   So, one of the things that I like to, that we like to be aware of as we're reviewing at Redeemed Reader is, is this a 12-year-old reading this book? And if a 12-year-old is reading a book and in the book, a 12-year-old is having a crush and it's kissing, we don't want our 12-year-olds kissing. That's not that helpful yet.   I mean, that's, that's quite young and yes, in some cultures you might, but not yet. However, if this is a book about an 18-year-old on a high school trip, like Becky Dean has some really fun YA romances that are appropriate for teens, then dealing with what is it like dating? What is it like dealing with these emotions and chemistry that can be really well done for an 18-year-old?   But like you said, we want to be aware of our imaginations. We want to be aware of what we're able to handle. And for someone, maybe reading those romances is fun and helpful.   For another, it might be unhelpful. And I think that comes down to as a reader growing discernment and knowing what you are able to read that will still be edifying.   Betsy Farquhar: (41:56 - 42:55) I'm going to piggyback a little bit. I, I agree that there, we look to scripture for what the standards are, and the Bible is not describing sexual activity in sordid detail. So, it's probably a good idea for us not to be wallowing in the same sorts of things.   And I think the same thing is true for language. In fact, it's easier to ignore profanity in a book you're reading versus listening to it. I mean, if we immerse ourselves in audio books that have, that are littered with profanity, it's going to stick in our head differently than if we're just reading it on the page.   And I think sexual activity; there are some similar dynamics at play. Obviously, a visual scene is going to be probably stick with us even more than a written scene. But either way, you know, that's part of discernment is what is my imagination doing with this?   And the overall picture of my reading diet. Is this all I'm reading? Is this what my thoughts are going towards?   Are they pointing me back to Christ? Are they promoting some helpful conversation? Or is it just sort of my guilty pleasure? Well, that should be maybe a sign.   Laura Dugger: (43:21 - 43:45) Some love stories are described as squeaky clean. But when it comes to the world of Christian romance, what are some helpful questions that we can be asking our tween or teen? And what are some healthy considerations for filtering books that we're going to allow to be consumed in our home?   Hayley Morell: (43:47 - 47:15) So, it's interesting. I think each genre of romance can have its own pitfalls. And I know I really appreciate the authors who are writing clean, squeaky-clean stories.   And as I've read them and consumed them, one of the things I've noticed is that it is clean. There's no question of something being clean. But at the same time, if the only thing we're reading, going back to having a balanced book diet, is a squeaky-clean story, I don't think that's helpful because it doesn't show an accurate view of the world.   And we want to be preparing our tweens and teens for a world where, yes, there is a happily ever after. Yes, we have the fairy tale wedding, or we have an imagination that is sparked by boy meets girl. But then what happens next?   And we live in a fallen world. And so, we have to work on relationships. We have to work on communicating.   And sometimes squeaky clean can lean so far into being safe that it doesn't actually show what it is like to have a relationship with the opposite sex. I think of one story I read and it's very superficial, playful. Snarky is often something I've noticed in the squeaky clean because we don't, we have to have some form of banter.   And so, it's perpetual sarcasm and no physical touch. But then suddenly our protagonists marry and now they're still being snarky and not touching. And as an adult, I look at that and go, that is not an accurate portrayal of what it looks like to have a romance and to have marriage.   And so, we love to ask, what are the relationships like in this book? And if that's in a middle grade novel, one of the things we love seeing is are they showing a healthy family? Are they showing parents that like being together?   Because that's at a middle grade level is you're sparking that imagination. What is our protagonist seeing as the adults around them are having relationships? Do the adults like to be together?   I just was reading a really sweet, Betsy, I think you read it. But Will's Race for Home is a story about this boy and westward expansion. And so, it's when the Oklahoma, Oklahoma land rush opens up.   And there's the sweetest time where he talks about how he knows his father loves his mother because his father will look at his mother and she will blush. And it's the sweetest age-appropriate picture of what romance looks like when you're a 12-year-old looking at your parents. And I think that type of thing can be a really healthy way of having these conversations versus having a diet that is just squeaky clean and yet might actually be showing an inaccurate portrayal of what it's like to have relationships in a fallen world.   Laura Dugger: (47:16 - 47:30) Well, let's get specific on another type of book as well. How do you advise parents to think critically on what age is appropriate to consume what you mentioned earlier, the Hunger Games or a book like that?   Betsy Farquhar: (47:31 - 49:44) Ooh, pick me. I love these kind of books. I'll read anything.   And I tend to get tasked with books that are difficult sometimes. Although many of us on our team read them and we do talk about these behind the scenes. So, when you're thinking about the age your child is and when they're ready for any book, but especially a popular one, I think part of that is our job as parents is always to be watching our children, to be students of our children.   How are they consuming media in general? What kind of video games? What kind of movies?   Are they on social media? What is their media diet like? And how are they handling that?   And if they're showing discernment in general, and they're kind of grappling with issues and ideas, then they're going to be ready for a book like the Hunger Games sooner than a child who's just blindly taking it all in. There's no magic age where you say, ooh, you're 12, you can read the Hunger Games. A lot depends on what that child's already displayed.   And I think dystopia are the books where there's some apocalyptic future and there's usually an autocratic governor or government system or it's futuresque. But they're really great books about bringing up big questions about how society works and the nature of authority and even the nature of anarchy. And they're just such great discussion starters.   But if your child isn't able to have those kinds of conversations yet, they're going to miss the forest for the trees and it's going to be all shock value. But I'm going to add a big caveat. If it's really popular and you think your child is maybe ready, maybe not quite, I would probably go ahead and read it with him or her if all of the peers are reading it.   Because I would rather my child have that conversation with me than with their friend. Or at least have it with me first before they read it with their friends. Even if we skip parts, maybe it's a book that you feel like we can't read chapter 12 for whatever reason.   Be honest with your child and say, you know what? This book has a scene I'm really uncomfortable with. Maybe give a brief summary.   We're going to keep going. But engage with your children over what is popular. I think that is the number one takeaway because they're going to find answers somewhere.   We want it to be from us.   Laura Dugger: (49:46 - 50:52) That is good. And that's why I appreciate the redeemed reader because you're putting in all this work for us because we can't pre-read everything. But when we're faced with a situation like that, it is helpful that we can choose to read some with them.   And another angle, I just love a few of your quotes in the book. First, on page 76, you write, If Genesis were made into a true-to-the-book movie, the Redeemed Reader team would not allow our children to watch it. We might abstain as well.   And then you go on for page 111 and you say, the best tool we can give our growing readers is God's word. The more they know and understand the Bible, the better equipped they will be to think discerningly, to recognize error, and to know how the Bible handles the same issues. So, will you just elaborate on this wisdom and advise us on how and why to encourage our children to read the Bible, even though it is messy?   Betsy Farquhar: (50:53 - 52:58) Well, it is a messy book, but thankfully, it's not only a messy book. I mean, if it were a movie, we have nudity very quickly. Then we have rebellion against God, and then we have murder.   And before you know it, six chapters in, the world is so bad that God is sending a flood to destroy it. So, it must have been really bad. But the Bible isn't giving us all those details.   And I think that is a big piece of the picture when it comes to discernment in literature. The Bible is not shy about telling us that people sinned. I mean, our heroes, David, infidelity, murder, you know, most of the famous people in the Bible did something egregiously wrong and sinful.   And yet the whole story of the Bible is God redeeming his people. We're all sinners. And there is hope because of Christ.   None of us can make it without Christ. And so, in the Bible, you're seeing both the mess and the hope. You're seeing God's answer to this problem.   And so, as we read scripture with our kids, one of the things that is helpful is we know what sin is. It's rebellion against God. It includes everything from sexual activity outside of marriage to gossip and pride and sort of the easy sins, right?   They're all sin. So, I think that's one thing that comes across when we're studying God's word. We also see Christ.   And when we then turn to a book, just a regular fiction book or even a nonfiction book, is the book also labeling sin as sin or at least a mistake? Or is it glorifying it? How is it handling it compared to how we know scripture handles it?   Is there any hope in the book? And where is that hope found? Are they just praying to the universe?   We're seeing universe capitalized all over the place now as sort of this amorphous deity. Well, that's not hopeful. I don't want to pray to Jupiter.   You know, we have a God who cares about us. And so just getting your kids to sort of reckon with the differences between how a book is portraying hope and judgment versus how scripture portrays it, that's going to take them a long way.   Laura Dugger: (53:01 - 53:23) That's fantastic. And your book lists at the end of each chapter are reason enough to purchase the book. But I'm sure that you've encountered additional titles since your publication date that you also enjoy.   So, will you share a handful of book recommendations, maybe some from each of those sweet spots again from your team?   Hayley Morell: (53:24 - 54:03) For young adults, we've actually mentioned both of the ones that I would add. They both have received starred reviews. A Forgery of Fate by Elizabeth Lim.   Excellent fantasy for young adults. And then Bright Red Fruit by Sophia O'Heo. And that one is a discussion starter.   It is a messy book, but it's an excellent book for its audience. Those would be two young adult fantasies. We see a lot of young adult fantasies.   So, but I would have loved to include those in the book. We just read them later.   Betsy Farquhar: (54:03 - 55:03) So, quick correction, Bright Red Fruit's not a fantasy, but it is it is. Oh, I apologize. That's fine.   It's a discussion starter. And that usually means that there's something in there you need to know about before you read it. As a parent, I would recommend doing your homework on that book.   It's a really good book to read with your daughters, but you might want to pre-read it first. Middle grade, that's our biggest bucket. Because it's the most it's got the widest audience reach and it's just so fun.   So, some of the ones that we've really liked, The Teacher of Nomadland by Daniel Nayeri. He is a Christian author. He won the National Book Award for this book for young people's literature and a Newbery Honor.   It's fantastic. It's a story about World War II. Benny on the Case by Wesley King is a really lovely mystery that features the protagonist has mosaic down syndrome, and it's just not very common to read books with different disabilities represented.   So, that's just a really sweet story. Lots of fun.   Hayley Morell: (55:04 - 55:05) It's a great audio book too.   Betsy Farquhar: (55:06 - 56:40) Yes. Song of the Stone Tiger, another Christian author, Glenn McCarty. It's a kind of a mix of realistic fiction and fantasy.   So, it's fun. A new one that we like. And then I'll leave you with one more.   I actually have it right here. So, for those who are watching this, they can see it. It's called Radiant by Vonda Michaud-Nelson.   And it's a novel in verse, but a beautiful picture of what it means to love your neighbor. So, The Sword by Marty Murkowski from New Growth Press. It's kind of a family devotional resource.   It was the World Magazine Book of the Year. We gave it a starred review as well. The Amazing Generation is a book for kids by the same author as The Anxious Generation.   So, that book is like a super bestseller for adults. This is kind of taking that idea and helping kids know how not to be the anxious generation, right? How they can be the amazing generation.   The World Entire is a nonfiction, maybe technically a picture book, but it's really long. And it's for this audience. And it's a true story about World War II, about a rescue.   I think it was set in Portugal. And then a graphic novel that's nonfiction. I'm trying to cover all your different genres here.   This is How to Say Goodbye in Cuban by Daniel Meadez. It's about his father and how he emigrated or escaped from Cuba. But it's a graphic novel.   So, there's a lot of visual interest. So, that's a really interesting background for kids who are hearing a lot of headlines about places like Cuba. And they're like, what's really going on?   A book like that can help them understand just some of the nuance behind the headlines.   Hayley Morell: (56:41 - 58:51) One of the things about middle grades as we talk about books is that middle grade is the age where readers are just exploding. And while you might have been able to keep up with your reader, then they hit 10 or 12 years old, and you give them a stack of books and they're reading them and asking for more. So, we definitely have a lot of middle grade reviews.   Picture books, though, are another place that we just love. And there's been some recent ones that we looked at and got, oh, this would be so good for the book. Something like Tuesday's Bear by Alexander Davis.   It's this beautiful story based on a true historical event. Unclaimed luggage is where, you know, if a suitcase gets lost, what happens to the contents? Well, one family had an idea, and Alexandra tells it through the story of this little bear who gets lost and then is found.   It's the most beautiful story. As a Christian, you can see a lot of very true themes running through it. And it's a delight to read aloud.   Wild Honey from the Moon by Kenneth Craigel. It's a story about a mother shrew whose little boy is sick, and she is going to do anything, even if it means traveling all the way to the moon to get some wild honey. It's a very imaginative story.   Beautiful pictures. A couple sneak peek that are going to just, these reviews are just going up. Iguanodon's Horn by Sean Rubin.   We've loved Bolivar, it was a graphic novel he did about a dinosaur. You can tell he likes dinosaurs. This is an amazing nonfiction picture book.   And for our Christian readers, this is a book about dinosaurs that doesn't have evolution. And I think you're going to love it. One more. His Grace is Enough. This is like Dr. Zeus type rhyming. Melissa Kruger wrote it.   It's a Christian book and it's a wonderful reminder for children. When you are dealing with sin, God's grace is enough. And I think you'll find if you read this, you'll be repeating the stanzas to yourself and encouraged as you read.   Laura Dugger: (58:54 - 59:41) I love having book lists. And if any other listeners are like me, we'll finish this episode and go ahead and put a bunch of books on hold at the library, which is always so convenient. And I'm sure a lot of people aren't able to take notes right now.   Maybe they're driving or working out as they're listening to this. But I love that every episode on The Savvy Sauce now has a transcript available. So, if anybody wants these book lists, you can go to the show notes page, either on our website or click on your podcast app and the transcript is available there.   So, thank you for all those wonderful recommendations. And do you have any other helpful tips to give us as parents if we're trying to navigate this well?   Betsy Farquhar: (59:42 - 1:00:26) Yes, start at birth and start not just reading with your kids, but asking them questions. They don't, it doesn't have to be a lengthy discussion. Is Piglet a good friend to poo?   You know, if you're reading Winnie the Pooh or if you're an Elephant and Piggy fan, like my kids were. Do you think Gerald should share his ice cream with Piggy? You can just pause in the middle of the story and just get them thinking, right?   So then when you get to the Hunger Games, you can say, what did you think of the ending? Would you have liked it to end differently? Those are great open-ended questions that get people talking and engaging and that you're often running.   If you can just think, I need to engage with my kids over what we're reading, then almost any book can be a discussion starter.   Laura Dugger: (1:00:27 - 1:00:33) Well, where can we go after this conversation to find more of your book recommendations?   Betsy Farquhar: (1:00:35 - 1:01:29) I'll do this one. Redeemedreader, alloneword.com is our website. And then we're super creative.   Our Facebook is exactly the same. Redeemedreader, alloneword. Our Instagram is redeemed underscore reader.   That's kind of a long story. But if you Google Redeemed Reader, you'll find us. And then the best way, oh yes, of course our book, which is also called The Redeemed Reader.   We're so original. But the best way to experience Redeemed Reader, other than the book, is through our weekly newsletter, which Haley curates and she does a fantastic job. But there's where you'll get the latest reviews.   We put in links for other places around the web that you might find interesting, different bookish news. Haley does a really fun book trivia with picture books. So, we like to think that it's going to make your inbox a happy place.   It's not a marketing email.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:30 - 1:01:50) I love that. We will provide links to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And you two are already familiar.   We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Betsy Farquhar: (1:01:52 - 1:03:03) So, as a business owner and a mom and a wife, it's probably not a surprise that I love my planner, but I've been through a lot of planners in my day, and I have very specific requirements. It needs to be bound, not coil bound. There's a certain size.   I mean, I have issues. I should say I have high standards for my planner. The single best feature in my current planner is that it forces me to break down my to do list between my life to do and my work to do.   And that was a game changer for me because I am wearing a lot of hats as most women are these days. And so, I limit myself to the number of bullet points that I'm given in the planner so that my work doesn't overtake my family life. It tends to be that way, sadly, more than the other way around.   Usually, my family life is not overtaking the work life, but it just it just gives me a chance to articulate each week. You know, I've got a birthday coming up that I need to plan for or I need to make sure my I mean, I graduated my youngest last year from high school, but the senior year in high school has a lot of deadlines. And so, it just helped me prioritize those milestones for my family and not let work get in the way.   Love that.   Laura Dugger: (1:03:03 - 1:03:04) What's the name of your planner?   Betsy Farquhar: (1:03:04 - 1:03:17) It's called the commit 30. I know there are other planners that do the same sort of thing, but I love having a weekly spread and I just love breaking it out between life to do and work to do.   Laura Dugger: (1:03:18 - 1:03:20) Absolutely. That sounds amazing. I love it.   Hayley Morell: (1:03:21 - 1:05:10) And my savvy sauce, I was going to say, Betsy is the planner and Betsy, I know you wouldn't appreciate this is spiral bound. So, I echo having a planner is a great way for me to just sort through all my thoughts, put them down and organize what needs to get done. But my savvy sauce is related to tech habits.   And as we were getting ready for our first, my husband and I were talking about how could we be mindful with our phone usage? And I have to thank Betsy for recommending Andy Crouch's, The Tech-Wise Family. Love that book.   And one of the things that we decided to do was to create a charging station downstairs in our house. And when I am not working where I need my phone for authentication or sending a voice message or being on the phone, if I'm not actively working, my phone lives on its charger. And that's been a struggle for me.   I have to admit the moment I had a child, anxiety kicked in. And for the first month, the phone was on me because that's what I needed to have a little security blanket. But I've been learning to leave my phone behind.   And then I'm not tempted to pick it up and scroll. And I feel like a child again because I get to the middle of the afternoon. And since I haven't been distracting myself, I've been getting things done. And all of a sudden I'm like; it's two o'clock and it's not dinner time yet. I have all of this time because I've created some more time by using the phone as a tool. But not having it right present and honestly, just distracting myself with it.   Laura Dugger: (1:05:12 - 1:05:48) That is a good, savvy tip. I love both of those. And you two have such warm and engaging personalities.   And I love those benefits that you were talking about for people who are readers. I experienced all of that through both of you today. And you're so wise and discerning yourselves.   And I am just beyond grateful that the Lord gifted you with your intellect, but also this passion for reviewing these resources. You're benefiting so many parents and children alike.   So, thank you for the work that you do. And thank you for being my guests.   Betsy Farquhar: (1:05:49 - 1:05:57) Thank you for having us. It is all from the Lord. Anything we have that's wise and worth taking away.   The credit should go to him, of course.   Hayley Morell: (1:05:58 - 1:06:00) Ame

A look at the week in Central Illinois and across the world from Peoria's breaking news station, 1470 and 100.3 WMBD for the week of 5/3 - 5/9.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Zap Dumpsters Peoria launched in 2025 getting specialized roll-off dumpster rentals for construction and demolition waste. This Peoria focussed business provides various container sizes to help Central Illinois contractors manage project waste efficiently. Zap Dumpsters Peoria City: Peoria Address: 208 SW Center St Website: https://zapdumpsterspeoria.com

Zap Dumpsters Peoria launched in 2025 getting specialized roll-off dumpster rentals for construction and demolition waste. This Peoria focussed business provides various container sizes to help Central Illinois contractors manage project waste efficiently. Zap Dumpsters Peoria City: Peoria Address: 208 SW Center St Website: https://zapdumpsterspeoria.com

Zap Dumpsters Peoria launched in 2025 getting specialized roll-off dumpster rentals for construction and demolition waste. This Peoria focussed business provides various container sizes to help Central Illinois contractors manage project waste efficiently. Zap Dumpsters Peoria City: Peoria Address: 208 SW Center St Website: https://zapdumpsterspeoria.com

This week on Barrel to Bottle, we're showing Central Illinois some love. We asked our Central Illinois stores (Peoria, Springfield, Champaign and Bloomington) to bring their favorite local beers to Dan, who muled them back to Chicago. Analytical Brewing Kolngeist Triptych Chip It on the Green Triptych Dank Meme White Oak Rippin' Lips Riggs Hefeweizen Riggs Black IPL Hand of Fate Double Bean Dream Cream Ale Keg Grove Brewing Holey Jeans Destihl Deadhead TourBus Double Dry Hopped Hazy IPA Destihl ILL-IPA If you have a question for the Barrel to Bottle Crew, email us at comments@binnys.com, or reach out to us on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram. If we answer your question during a podcast, you'll get a $20 Binny's Gift Card! If you like our podcast, subscribe wherever you download podcasts. Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.  

Travels With Randy Route 66 Episode 16 is here! And We End At The Beginning! Illinois - Springfield To Navy Pier Route 66 Historical Sites Tour Randy shared his experiences visiting historical sites along Route 66 in Illinois, including a tour of Ace Sign Company in Springfield, a business spanning six generations, and Funk's Grove, a maple syrup farm operating for five generations. He discussed the unique presence of giant roadside statues in Illinois, particularly noting the state's fondness for large human figures. The conversation also included a brief exchange with Beth about the prevalence of city names like Atlanta across different states. AI Voice Assistant Capabilities Discussion The discussion focused on two main topics. First, they discussed the common town name "Riverside" and how it appears in nearly every U.S. state, though not quite every state. Second, they explored the capabilities of an AI voice assistant named Beth, who was able to provide instant, relevant responses to questions about van travel and Route 66. The conversation concluded with an observation about increased traffic and international visitors on Route 66, though the speakers noted this might represent different levels of "picking up" for them versus local experts. Central Illinois Childhood Experiences Bubba discussed his experiences growing up in Central Illinois, particularly around towns like Decatur and Warrensburg. They talked about the weather in the region, with Bubba sharing his experiences of harsh winters and pleasant summers. Randy shared an interesting find during a photography trip along Route 66, discovering a junkyard artist creating sculptures from heavy equipment. The conversation concluded with a discussion about photography as art, with Randy expressing his perspective on capturing existing art rather than creating it himself. Academic Achievements and Energy Discussion Bubba and Randy discussed Bubba's son's academic achievements and potential college tuition assistance. They then conversed about the prevalence of windmills in central Illinois, comparing them to solar farms and discussing the challenges of wind energy. The conversation concluded with a discussion about the different areas of Chicago and its suburbs, particularly focusing on Route 66's path through the region. Route 66 Murals Discovery Randy shared his experience visiting Pontiac, Illinois, where he discovered a series of murals created by the Wall Dogs artist group in 2009. He discussed a particularly impressive Route 66 mural featuring cars from different eras and a futuristic vision, as well as learning about Bob Waldmire, an artist who traveled Route 66 and lived in a van before passing away in 2009. The conversation concluded with Randy receiving encouraging feedback from Beth about his own travels and photography along Route 66. Route 66 Travel in Illinois Randy and Bubba discussed their Route 66 travel experiences in Illinois, particularly around Wilmington and Joliet. Randy explained how different Route 66 alignments exist in Illinois, with the state doing a good job of marking the correct route with regular signage, especially along business routes. They noted that Illinois maintains the route well, unlike some other states where signage can be inconsistent or confusing. Route 66 Travel Experience Discussion Randy shared his experience traveling Route 66, highlighting Illinois's improved signage system and the recent change in Chicago's ceremonial starting point to Navy Pier. He discussed the logistics of visiting the new starting point, noting parking challenges for larger vehicles. Randy recommended allowing two days per state for the journey, suggesting early morning drives and considering the timing for viewing neon signs. Route 66 Travel Experiences Randy shared his experiences traveling Route 66 across 8 states, noting that Kansas stood out to him due to its small size and strong commitment to the route, while Texas was his least favorite section due to poor signage and lack of engagement from local authorities. He praised Oklahoma, Missouri, and Illinois for their effective signage and town participation, and highlighted New Mexico's unique historical route through the Santa Fe Loop. Randy expressed hope that the upcoming Route 66 Centennial celebrations would encourage more people to experience the historic route, particularly families taking summer road trips. Route 66 Project Planning Meeting Randy and Bubba discussed their new Route 66 project, including a 16-month calendar and a 10-pack of postcards featuring photos from the route. The calendar will go to production in June and be ready for shipping in July, with a website launch planned for Sunday. They are also working on establishing two locations per state where the calendar and postcards can be purchased. Bubba will handle storage and shipping through his book business, and they plan to continue posting photos on their Facebook page and potentially start new photo series in the future.   SO. MANY. PHOTOS - Come join the conversation on Facebook with our 33,000 friends! https://www.facebook.com/travelswithrandypodcast Have a great idea for the guys?  Want to sponsor us?  Want us to sell something National Park or Route 66 related? Want to be a guest? Want to pay for both of us to go to Alaska? Want me to stop asking questions?   bubba@travelswithrandypodcast.com !!

Discovering Your BEST Colors and Style Upgrades for Your Closet and Home with Color and Style Consultant, Carla Gasser (Episode 292)   Romans 12:2 NLT “Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.”   *Transcription Below*   Carla Gasser is a Christian author, speaker, and certified color/style consultant known for helping women connect faith with everyday life, focusing on spiritual and inner beauty through decluttering the soul. Based in Ohio, she's the author of The Beauty of an Uncluttered Soul, speaks at women's events, teaches Bible studies, and offers personal style guidance, encouraging authenticity and grace in messy, real-life situations.   Carla's Website   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you walk us through exactly what you do during a color analysis?  What are your best tips for: Make-up, jewelry color, print options, and general styling tips? Now that we have this information, how can we begin to edit and curate our closet?   Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: 134 Fashion Meets Faith with Shari Braendel 251 Wintering and Embracing Holy Hygge with Jamie Erickson   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:12)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:47) Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to the Sue Neihouser team for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.   Carla Gasser is my guest today. Not only is she a color and style consultant, but she's also an author and a Bible teacher. We're going to discuss some very practical ways that you can discover what colors are uniquely best for you and then learn also how you can incorporate those into your closet and into your home. I have been wanting to do an episode like this for such a long time.   During undergrad, I was able to minor in fashion merchandising and even got to study abroad in Europe with a group of about 50 people. It was so exhilarating, and I've just always been drawn to topics like this one. In addition, what excites me about today is the way that Carla will talk about beauty both inside and out.   I can't wait to share this conversation with you. Here's our chat. Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Carla.   Carla Gasser: (1:48 - 1:51) So, great to be with you today, Laura. Thanks for inviting me.   Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 1:59) Well, I am just absolutely fascinated by your work. So, can you explain a little bit more of what you get to do?   Carla Gasser: (1:59 - 3:36) Sure. If we're talking about the outer beauty part of my business, I was trained as a certified color analysis and style consultant by Sheri Brandel, who's the owner, founder, and CEO of Style by Color. What I love most about that training is that we're independent contractors.   So, I was able to take that certification and everything I knew and already incorporated it into what my ministry was. My ministry for the past 20 years is talking about how God makes us beautiful from the inside out. But I've always had this struggle because I've loved fashion, and I've loved dressing, and I've loved outer beauty as well, which is something that God created, right?   So, a couple of years ago after I did the certification, I kind of incorporated it, and it was easier than I thought because God is the author of beauty. God is beauty. So, because I'm a Bible study teacher and I love digging into God's word, I just focused more on that.   And my book and my Bible study is called The Beauty of an Uncluttered Soul. So, those two things just ended up meshing beautifully for me. And it also helped me reach out to a wider audience, women who are interested about outer beauty and fashion and style and color and design, but they're looking for something more, and I could provide that for them too.   So, it's been wonderful. I mean, I've really enjoyed it.   Laura Dugger: (3:36 - 3:51) Well, it's such a unique pairing. And I think, is there anything you'd want to elaborate on for us as believers, as Christians? Why does it matter, both internal and external beauty?   Right.   Carla Gasser: (3:51 - 6:00) I'm speaking about this next week, and I've been starting to incorporate this in when I speak because the world has distorted beauty, right? And they have hijacked it, and they have made it into something that God never designed it to be. But if we look at the other side of it, the church, I feel, sometimes has over-spiritualized inner beauty to the exclusion of outer beauty.   So, I was caught in that tension, and I think many believing women are, well, outer beauty is shallow, inner beauty is spiritual, right? And I say it's not either or, it's and both, right? That if God created the sunsets, and all the beautiful flowers, and the things that make us post these images on Instagram of his natural beauty, then God cares about beauty.   And I love it when it says he created them in Genesis, and it was very good. The only time he uses very good is when he's talking about humans, man and woman. He created them very good.   If you go back to the Hebrew word of very good, it's tov, and it means beautiful. So, when I speak to women, I say, we are going to stop right now, and we are going to say, I was created beautiful. And a lot of women don't say that, can't say that, are afraid to say that.   And I'm here to say yes, and it's okay to express that. And I don't stand up there saying, you have to look like me, or dress like me. I want you to discover your unique style, your unique beauty.   You know, it's not a one size fits all. It's not like, well, this is the trend, so you've got to wear it. I don't want to put any more pressure on women.   I want to free women to embrace their God-given beauty, if that makes sense.   Laura Dugger: (6:01 - 6:12) Absolutely. Well, and one of the ways you do that is through color analysis, but can you walk us through like exactly what you do during a color analysis meeting?   Carla Gasser: (6:12 - 13:55) Color analysis is having a moment, isn't it? And what I'm finding is either if you're my age or older, and I'm in my late fifties, you remember seasonal color analysis, right? And when I start talking color analysis, those women will say to me, well, in the eighties, I was a winter, I was a spring, I was a summer, right?   And what am I now? And then if you talk to my daughter's generation, like twenties and thirties, they're hearing seasonal color analysis come back to, but they're watching it on Instagram and TikTok. And they're like, well, I'm a cool summer.   I'm a neutral winter. And I'm like, what is going on? This is confusing.   So, Sherry Brandel, like I said, the owner and founder of Style by Color was one of the first people who was trained in Color Me Beautiful, the seasonal color system. So, she knows it inside and out. And what she decided to do was to take the tenets, the basics of the seasonal color system, but expand it.   So, we don't, you're not going to walk out of a color analysis telling people you're a winter. We have six unique codes, and our codes are more illustrative of what you are. So, I'm a clear, okay?   There's warm, there's soft, there's cool, there's deep, and there's light. And what we're doing, and I can show a cute little chart here that helps, what we're doing is we're basing it on the seasonal color system, but we're actually giving you more colors. Because what we're doing when I say you're a soft, I am taking the softer colors, palettes, tones, and hues of summer and fall and giving them to you.   So, the other thing that we do that other systems don't do, we take into account your hair. In many of these systems or color analysis appointments, you'll see them put a white cap over a woman's head and just look at her face. We're like, what?   Your hair has so much to do with your overall coloring. I mean, I know it's hard for you to do this but imagine me platinum blonde. Wouldn't I look totally different if I was platinum blonde and this very dark hair I have?   So, we take into account your hair color. And what we're doing is we're doing tonal color analysis, meaning I am looking at your major color dominant characteristics. Like I just said, your hair color, your eye color, your skin tone.   And now I'm not trying to determine whether you're cool or warm or neutral. That got the Color Me Beautiful system into like 24 color codes because they took every season and they broke it down like six ways and it became complicated and crazy. What we're doing is I'm comparing my skin tone to my hair to my eyes.   And we give you a rating of one to five, meaning, and it's really good if we're both on camera here, people are going to see this right away. I'm a five. I am the highest contrast level.   Can we know why? I've got really dark hair and really light skin and light eyes. So, I'm a five.   Now we look at you. You're not a five. You are a lower contrast level because your hair and your skin tone when you turn are pretty similar.   And your eyes kind of are in the middle there. So, I would put you at a three or a two. And that contrast level helps me determine your color code.   Not only that, it helps me determine what prints and patterns you should wear, what jewelry you should wear. I mean, what makeup you should wear? So, that is how we differ.   And I feel that learning the tonal part of this and understanding contrast level was a game changer for me. And that's what I teach my clients. That once you know that it's easy for me to put you in a color code.   I also use these capes behind me that help during a color analysis. But I also do things like I, you know, use patterns. You know, this is a high contrast level pattern.   So, this is going to look good on someone like me, black and white. If I put a black and white on you, you're going to look like a floating head. It's not cohesive.   But what you're going to look better in is something like this because this is medium contrast. Okay, so we do that. We also talk about pop colors.   Everybody, you know, will say, well, don't take red away from me. Red's my favorite color. Don't take blue away from me.   I wear blue all the time. I'm like, I'm not taking hardly any colors away from you. What I'm teaching you is when you go into a store and you want to know what red, well, my red and your red are very different, right?   So, I'm not taking red away from you. I'm just trying to guide you towards the right red. I'm not taking pink away from you.   Oh, one color code I do. Pink away from you. I'm just telling you, you know, I need this pink.   This is my pink, right? That's my yellow. So, that's what we do.   We break it all down. When I do mini color analysis, I'm usually in a boutique and I love working with boutique owners because then I can help people shop right after. But it's a 15-minute quick appointment.   I give you digital downloads of your colors. Like I said, every color codes gets 35 plus colors. And if you have them on your phone, when you're out shopping, you're scrolling and going, oh, I can use this.   Oh, I can use this. Not only in our digital collection, we give you the trending colors twice a year for fall and winter and spring and summer. Because we both know that colors, you know, have moments, right?   Pantone picks their color of the year, which happens to be white this year, which I'm like, that's a little counterintuitive because I don't know that white's a color, but anyways, it's a neutral. So, you have them on your phone and then you can decide and they update. I also have color cards for old school people like me that want the physical representation, and we sell those as well.   And you can put those in your purse, and you can use them. But I tell people, use them for your nail color, use them for your makeup, use them even when you're decorating your home. A lot of people gravitate to the colors that they look good in, and you can use them in other ways or even pairing colors together.   How do we do that? So that is a mini one. And in that one, I'm just giving you your best neutrals, your colors to avoid, your jewelry choices.   But when you come to my home and I do do it, I have a studio in my home, it's an hour and a half to two hour and we go through it all. You know, we go through it all. When I go into your closet, that's a whole different thing.   And I do ask that people have a color analysis before I do a closet edit. Because once we know your colors, then organizing your closet, creating and curating a capsule wardrobe becomes so much easier.   Laura Dugger: (13:57 - 14:08) Okay, we'll have to follow up on that. But first, I'm just so curious, which color person does not get pink, the warm, warm, warm.   Carla Gasser: (14:08 - 17:23) So, those are people usually with Auburn red hair, you know, they're in that category. So, they get all the spices. And they're the opposite of someone like me, like I can't wear anything with like a gold, yellow undertone.   You know, I can't really wear orange, the orange, I have one orange in my palette, believe it or not, but it's super bright. It's not an orange I probably would wear. One of the comments that someone made to me that said they were afraid to get a color analysis because they thought I would take too much away from them.   Right? They would I would take away their favorite colors; I would tell them they don't look good in things they look good in. Most people, it's so interesting, because sometimes when you come to my home, I ask you to bring some clothes with you, like bring something that everyone says when you walk in a room, wow, you look great in that.   And bring something that you don't ever reach for in your closet, because you're not sure of. And people are closer than they think to knowing their, their right colors. Sometimes I kind of shake them up a bit.   But I give them so much that some people say, well, I can't possibly wear all these colors. There's 36 colors here. And I try to tell people focus on your neutrals, because people have different neutrals, right?   Focus on your neutrals and then add one to two pop colors per season. Because if you try to wear every color in there, that you know, your closet is going to be very cluttered and very overwhelming. But it really helps you declutter and focus because there are stores I walk into now that I literally make one loop and I walk right back out.   Because they're all these light colors and palettes and warm tones. And I call it cafe latte dressing that you would look gorgeous in. But for me, so why would I waste my time in that store?   Right, I walk in real quick. And I've taught women how to shop, right? Because how many of us were taught how to shop, we go in, we go to the sale rack, we go in, we look for something that's trending, we go in, and we bring it home.   And we stand in front of our closet every morning and say what, I have nothing to wear. Right? I have nothing to wear because our closets are full of things that don't match with each other, that we don't feel good in, that we might have bought because we thought it was a deal.   But we don't know if they look good on us. We don't know if they work on our body shape. We don't know how to put them together with what we already have.   So, less really is more. I'm not trying to get people to go out and spend thousands of dollars on a whole new wardrobe. I ask, especially in a closet edit, we're going to work first with what you have.   And then you might have to go out and buy one or two key pieces. But really my last closet edit, she had to buy three things at the end. That was it.   To make over, we talked about, we ended up making her at least 35 different outfits with what she already had and going out and buying three pieces. That was it.   Laura Dugger: (17:24 - 20:14) We'll come back shortly after a brief message from our sponsor. With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser team is a RE-MAX agent of Central Illinois, and she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors. For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831.   And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer. When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home.   And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process. This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team.   The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market, but Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell. She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process, and she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she's thought of everything, and Sue's continued generosity was astonishing.   I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Ms. Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home. So, whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time or looking to upgrade or downsize or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years, Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress-free and that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made.   So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Okay, so that also makes me curious when you talk about the colors that you put together.   Yes. Do you use a color wheel, or do you have any practical ways that we can learn how to put different colors together in our home or in our closet?   Carla Gasser: (20:14 - 22:34) Right, that goes back to the contrast level that we talked about, and it also goes back to body shape. So, contrast level is can you wear, you know, high contrast prints or outfits? Like I can wear black and white.   Would I tell you to do that? Probably not. So, when you know what your contrast level is, that not only informs your prints, your patterns, your colors, it informs your outfits.   Here's a quick tip about dressing for your body shape. All right, we talk about inner column versus outer column. So, if you carry your weight in your belly and this is a, you know, I always tell women when I'm speaking to them, place your hands on the one area of yourself that you wish you could camouflage, right?   And some of us go to our hips. Some of us, we all have it, right? But if that is your area, your belly is your area, and I like to camouflage it.   What you want to create is an inner column. How do you create an inner column? So, if you were looking at my outfit right now, an inner column would be that this blue here, I would wear the same color pants.   I've got an inner column. And then I put this jacket over it because when you look at that inner column, there's no waist definition. There's no, it's just an inner column.   It makes me look taller. It makes me look thinner. It, you know, draws the eye up to the face.   We always want to draw the eye up to the face. Now, if your problem area is more your hips and you want to camouflage that, but you've got a smaller waist, then you do an outer column. Whereas with me, again, I keep the blue shirt. I tuck it in, but I wear black pants because black and black.   So, those are just two quick little tips that people could take away based on, you know, an inner column also works well for people who are large chested, who want to kind of camouflage this part, you know, who have kind of a roundness here and outer column again, works for people who also maybe have a more of a pear shaped or, um, not only pear shaped, but like an hourglass figure, an outer column would work better for, does that help?   Laura Dugger: (22:34 - 22:53) Does that make sense? This is so helpful. And I'm wondering, are there any principles that apply to everyone specifically?   I mean, even thinking first when it's summer and when somebody has a tan or when they naturally start graying, how does that work? Does their color change?   Carla Gasser: (22:54 - 25:38) Yes, it does. It does. And we can customize color decks and color codes.   So, I have a few women who are transitioning to gray. They're not there yet, but they're in between. So, what I'm going to do is pull out from their deck, anything that is yellowing or has that warmer undertone and keep her in the cool until, and I also say to people, if you come to me and like you're this one day and you say, Carol, I'm going to go red.   I'm going to be a redhead. I will color code you again for free because that's how much I believe in the system. And that's how much I believe your hair matters for your color code.   So, if you change your color code and you're my color and you say, you know, I'm going to go platinum. Yeah. I just think it'll be fun. Come back. We will. So, you're right.   Your hair has a lot to do with it now in terms of tanning, right? Same thing. I would probably just direct you.   I wouldn't change your color code. I would just direct you to certain colors in your, in your color code more than others. If you're darker or lighter, does that make sense?   That does that's helpful. So, it's perfectly customizable. And that's the whole thing about when I tell people, when I have you as a client, you can go around and tell your friends and brag that you have a stylist because you do, you know, you can text me, you, I get a lot of texts from dressing rooms, women standing there in the mirror, taking the picture, going Carla, does this work?   Does this not work? Do these shoes work? That's what I'm here for.   I want an ongoing relationship. I don't like, I mean, I do one and dones. Okay.   If I'm in a boutique or something and you come in from out of town, you can still contact me. I do virtual, I do, you know, all these kinds of things, but I love having a client as an ongoing relationship because you might change your body, change your season of life, change. You were working now you're not, or you're going back to work, and you haven't been working.   All those things affect what you're going to wear and how you're going to wear and where you shop. I just had a woman who, you know, broke her foot and she's in a boot and she is so upset about this because we just did her closet edit. We just started thinking, well, what shoes should I wear?   So, we've been working together to modify her outfits. We've been working together to get her to a place where she still feels comfortable, but she has to wear this boot. Okay.   We can work around that. We can do that. You know, and I have people who go on vacation.   I have no idea what to pack for vacation. I could only have a carry on. We're going to create a capsule wardrobe for your vacation.   We can do that.   Laura Dugger: (25:39 - 26:09) It is crazy to think of how much this plays into our lives every day. And so, once you learn this, I think it can save you time and money. I'm also thinking of one other principle.   We always hear about the little black dress, but the funny thing is black is the absence of all colors. So, I remember studying that black near the face, even if that's in your palette, that that's not recommended. So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, Carla.   Carla Gasser: (26:09 - 28:18) Yes. I would say black near the face only works for a few of us. You're right.   And I'm one of them, right? Because of this high contrast, but I still like to break it up with color myself. I have an interesting story for you.   I had a friend who really, she should not wear black by her face at all. She is a soft color code. She got invited to a wedding and everyone had to wear black.   She freaked out. I just got my colors done. What am I going to do?   I have to go to this. I said, first of all, we have to respect the bride and groom. Yes.   This is what you want and whatever. What we did, though, is we bought her a huge, chunky leopard necklace. It broke it up and she bought leather leopard shoe shoes and wore the black.   So, there are ways. And I say to people, when I take away black from you and you have all these black clothes at home, I'm like, I don't want you to donate everything to goodwill, but we're going to think of ways to break this up. And one of the ways we break it up near the face is a larger necklace, a scarf, a third piece like this, a vest or a cardigan.   There are ways to do it without going home and saying, oh my word, I have to throw everything away. And then I'll try to redirect those people. Okay, now that you know your neutrals are no longer black, there are a lot of other great neutrals out there.   Dark brown, gray, navy. So, now when you go shopping, don't throw all your black away, but start incorporating other neutrals into your wardrobe that are softer for you and work better for you. And like you asked before, too, are there some colors that everyone can wear?   And I would, I could give you one. There's a couple, but one color that is kind of the universal color that everybody has in about the same shade is teal. It's kind of the couch you're sitting on.   If I read it correctly in your, on the video, teal is kind of a universal color. So, that's something.   Laura Dugger: (28:19 - 28:21) I had no idea. I love that.   Carla Gasser: (28:22 - 28:22) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (28:22 - 28:35) And have you ever even studied the psychology related to colors? For instance, how we can perceive people differently when they are dressed in their best color?   Carla Gasser: (28:36 - 30:08) No, I haven't personally studied that, but I have seen women. Like I just got a testimony the other day, I was asking some of my clients, like, what would you say? And I had this young mom who said, you know, it wasn't low self-esteem that kept me dressing this way.   It was apathy. And I thought that was a really strong word. And she walked into church and she actually sings at church.   So, she's up on stage and we just talked about a few tweaks and she's like everybody said something to me after. And they said, “You sang louder, you were glowing, you were shining.” And she goes, “I felt I didn't do anything different, but just wear what we talked about and changed my clothes.”   So, I do think people notice, I think that there is a radiance that comes from within. Not only are you more confident, but I do think again, it highlights your face. And when your face is highlighted, people are attracted to that, you know?   And I always make a big point when I'm out and about doing my grocery shopping, going to the drugstore, going to the post office, and I see someone wearing the right color. I don't tell her I'm a color now. I don't go through all that.   I just said, you know, you look fabulous in that color. And I'm like, give me a big smile if they're not smiling. And they're just like, well, who is this woman?   I go, and they walk out like two inches taller.   Laura Dugger: (30:09 - 31:30) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?   Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.   Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share.   We appreciate you. Well, I love that you've mentioned Sherri Brandel because she's the one who founded Style by Color, but she was also a previous guest on The Savvy Sauce. So, I'll make sure and link to her fantastic episode.   And I love her testimony. But with you, Carla, at Style by Color, do you ever keep records of the percentage of people who make up each category, or have you even noticed patterns of which ones are most or least common? Yes.   Carla Gasser: (31:31 - 33:10) I think it depends on where you live because when we get all together for consultants, because we do have continuing education, I'm part of their professional development program. So, I'm trained every month in something new, like whether it's hair or makeup or trends or just different things. But we get together once a year for our conference and we talk about where we live.   It seems to me, and I live in Northeast Ohio, kind of between Cleveland and Akron, a lot of the women in my area seem to be softs. There's a lot of soft. I do a lot of soft.   Very rarely do I do someone like me. Now, if you go down, I think in my family, I'm Italian. Most of my Italian relatives are deeps, not as clear as me because they have more of the olive skin.   For some reason, I got this very light skin. I do tan, but I don't tan on my face for some reason. You notice my arms are darker than my face.   So, I do think it kind of runs that way, kind of where you live and maybe a little bit by ethnicity or background. However, I have said to people, because we do this tonal color analysis, there can be people who are clear that don't look exactly like me because what am I doing? I'm comparing their hair to their skin, to their eyes.   I'm not comparing them to me. So, I think that's what makes this unique and makes it very customizable for people. Yes.   Laura Dugger: (33:11 - 33:19) Makes sense. Okay. And this may sound a little overly dramatic, but how have you seen this process improve someone's life?   Carla Gasser: (33:20 - 35:30) Oh, wow. I wish I could read you. I mean, I have some testimonials here that I was just looking through last night and to get prepared for this.   One person said, when I looked at my closet, I felt overwhelmed. I kept buying new things, but none of them seemed to solve my problem. So, many great pieces, but never seemed to be able to pull things together.   Carla came to the rescue. Her instructions on preparing for a meeting were concise and clear. And our 90-minute session flew by.   By the time we were finished, I was feeling so excited about all the new possibilities. Now I find it so easy to step into my closet, a place that once scared me. Take a quick look and decide what to wear for any occasion.   Before, I just had my colors for shopping, but now I have the missing piece of fabric and fit and how to put it all together. So, that's one of them. Another one said thanks for being such an encouragement to me, for showing me how to dress.   And so, I feel beautiful. I'm thankful that I've never struggled with self-esteem the way many women do. But for me, I had become very apathetic, knowing I could probably do better, but not really caring or getting frustrated when I tried, when I tried didn't work the way I thought it should.   You have helped me to see what many times I've picked close to the right colors or I've settled for good enough when I could have added pieces to make it beautiful. Thank you for listening and obeying what God asked you to step out into this vocation to make women feel beautiful from the inside out. You've been a blessing.   So, I do think it has changed women. I have had women say I spend less money. I spend less time.   I feel more confident at work. I feel more confident like she said at church, you know, being in front of someone. So, yeah, I think it makes a measurable difference in people's lives.   If they apply it, you know, I think there are women who are one and done that come in, they just want to know what their colors are, and they walk out and you know, but even that does add something to your life, I think. So, yes, I do think it makes a difference. It's definitely personally made a difference in my own life.   Laura Dugger: (35:31 - 35:35) So, anything you'd want to elaborate on that how it's made a difference in your own life.   Carla Gasser: (35:36 - 38:10) I think I had gotten into kind of similarly to the testimonial I just read of someone of just, you know, not caring. You know, I had four kids at home. I was running everywhere.   I wanted what was comfortable. I wanted what was quick. And what happened was I had gotten into this really gray phase, not realizing that the gray was really reflecting how I was feeling on the inside.   And after I was, I went to a speaker's convention, because I'm also a speaker and Sherry actually did my colors. She was at this event. And so, I met her in person, and we have become great friends since I came home and I started changing it and I have three boys and a girl.   Who do you think noticed that I was changing before? It was my boys. And my one son said to me, “I love that you're wearing brighter colors.   It reminds me of when I was younger, that you always wore colors like that when I was little. Like I always remember my mom showing up and she was in and he goes, and you haven't done that in a long time. And I thought there's something more like we were talking before about the psychology.   I would also feel like it was a spiritual thing too, for me that I had kind of just settled in a lot of ways. And I think women think that they're hiding in bigger clothes or in drab colors because they don't want to be seen or they don't feel their worth or they have shame, they have regret, they have all these things. And I used to also when I would dress up and go places, have you ever had people say to you, why are you so dressed up?   Why are you wearing that? And it would make me shrink. It would make me feel awful.   Like I'm not trying to show you up. I'm not trying. I just, this is what I like to wear.   And I changed that total attitude around. And we would go out with the group of women. They're like, there you are, Carlo.   What are you wearing that for? And I said, you know what? I'm your fancy friend.   Call me your fancy friend. I'm going to dress up like your fancy friend. And when we go places, this is what I feel like.   And I said, and if you want to wear sweats, I don't care. That's what makes you comfortable. That makes you feel good about yourself.   But I feel like sometimes we dress for other women and other people before we dress for ourselves.   Laura Dugger: (38:11 - 39:13) Well, that's really good. And even how you mentioned there's a spiritual component. I think of Jesus teaching on so many object lessons and that he would use something external to talk about the internal spiritual condition.   And it reminds me of another guest, Jamie Erickson, who wrote the book on holy Hygge, just on that concept of our inner life will be reflected outwardly as well. And last piece, just with the psychology, I do remember one thing with the psychology of color, just that when somebody is in their best palette, that we naturally trust them more. And so, it's just unique, all the things that we're probably unaware of, but this really does matter.   Absolutely. And so then beyond just our clothing, can you share some more of your best tips? I'm thinking makeup and jewelry, colored print options, and just your general styling tips.   Carla Gasser: (39:14 - 43:53) I think one other demonstration that I do a lot, too, that I do with women is I think we undervalue the importance of accessories, that you could take a very simple outfit and change it up with accessories. And it's not buying more clothes. It's just taking things off, adding things.   And so, I went to a women's group here in town and I wore a basic jumpsuit. And I told them, this is how I would wear this jumpsuit if I was just running out and about. And I put tennis shoes on.   I put a simple necklace on, simple handbag, one out. And they're like, great. I said, okay, now I'm going to meet some friends for lunch.   Same jumpsuit. Put sandals on, put a little cardigan on, put a thicker necklace on. So, I was teaching them, you could take one outfit and style it three to four or five different ways just by accessories.   So, that's one tip. I would say don't neglect or overlook accessories. The other thing is, know what accessories work for your frame.   If you've ever seen a woman who's like 5'10", wearing a purse this big, it doesn't work. Likewise, someone who's 5'2", wearing one of those huge canvas tote bags, you've got to match your accessories to your frame. Right?   So, if you're, you know, 5'2 and under, your accessories need to be more delicate and smaller to fit you. Likewise, like someone was saying, but, you know, I love those statement necklaces that you wear. And I'm only five, you know, my mom is tiny.   She's only like 5'1", 5'2". And I'm like, what you can do if you want to achieve that effect is layering your necklaces. They're all tiny and delicate.   But if you put three of them together, you're giving the illusion of having something more, but it's not overpowering you, something like that. So, I think those two tips that women, you know, can overlook is accessorize. And one tip that Sherry gave that revolutionized it for me, and I didn't believe her when she first told me this tip, and yet she stands by it.   And now I stand by it. When we were growing up, my mom said that your shoes must match your purse or your handbag. That was a rule, right?   Sherry does not believe in that rule. She says your shoes must match your hair. So, I thought about that because I wear all different color shoes, but I had gone to a wedding that summer and I wore a red dress to the wedding.   It's one of my best colors, right? But that was the time when those nude shoes were really popular. You know what I'm talking about?   They were kind of patent and nude, and they were, you know, rounded toe, high heel. And I thought, well, I'm not going to the prom. So, I'm not going to buy red shoes, right?   I need to buy a neutral shoe to go with a red dress. So, I went back and looked at a picture of myself in that red dress standing next to my husband in those shoes. And it looked like I was floating.   I took that dress on, but again, I put black shoes on, and I took a picture of myself and I put them side by side because I needed proof. I need visual proof. Totally different look.   Because what she says is when you're wearing all one color, a lot of times one color and outfit, your shoes and your hair frame your outfit. And I can show you picture after picture where it works. And when I speak to women, I put those pictures up there and they're like, and I'm like, I know, isn't that crazy.   And she also says your handbag should match your hair, your everyday handbag. Nine times out of 10, I asked this question, if I gave you $500 and you could go buy a really nice designer handbag, what color would you buy? 75 to 80% of women say what?   Probably black, black, right? They all say black. And then I'll show them pictures of how much better a woman looks pulled together when her everyday handbag, that doesn't mean you can't wear a pink handbag or, you know, to spice up your outfit.   If it's part of your accessory look, that's not saying that, but your everyday standard handbag that you're going to invest money in, that's going to be with you for several years should match your hair.   Laura Dugger: (43:54 - 44:04) Wow. That is so interesting to me. And I think it would be fun to do pictures, the before and after, and just see that sometimes those visuals are helpful.   Carla Gasser: (44:04 - 44:12) They help a lot, but you'll start noticing it now or go online and start looking. I'll tell the women to do that and they'll, they'll be blown away.   Laura Dugger: (44:13 - 44:21) Well, and now that we do have all of this information, how can we begin to edit or curate our closet?   Carla Gasser: (44:23 - 47:24) So, when I do a closet edit, I do give them some homework to do before I get there. And I ask them to go through their closet and do, um, for three to four things. First thing is pull out anything that you're going to donate or consign.   Okay. If you haven't worn it in two years, if it's stained, if it's, you know, that might be a throwaway, but you're going to make those piles, give away, throw away, and then maybe consign if it's something really good. And, you know, this is also based on first having a color analysis.   Like I said before, if you don't have a color analysis, it's very hard for me to go into your closet. Okay. So, that's one thing you do next thing.   We pull up anything that is seasonal from your closet. If you're not wearing it now, because you live where I live and you're not wearing sleeveless or shorts or whatever, put that in a bin, put it away. The other thing is put away a trendy.   Okay. Skinny jeans were a thing, and everybody loved their skinny jeans. Do I think skinny jeans might come back?   They might, if they, if you still like them, if they still fit you, put them in a bin, put your trending kind of clothes, long cardigans aren't in right now. How many long cardigans do you have? You probably have five, you probably have six and you probably love them.   It's okay. I'm not telling you to throw them away, put them in a bin and we're going to store those someplace else. So, there are certain things that you could start doing.   The other thing that I think is very helpful is I line my closet up with my neutrals first, and then my colors, you know, white, black and gray and Navy are my neutrals. I lined those up. Then I start lining up my colors and my patterns.   So, I think that's a very helpful way because, you know, putting outfits together becomes a lot easier because I pick a neutral, I pick a pattern, I pick a color, you know, kind of like you're probably too young for animals where the kids had to match the tags. When we were little, it was like, we went to the store and there was a, you know, a clothing line called grant or animals. And like, you match the monkey with the monkey, the monkey had on the top, the tag was like a monkey and the tag in the bottom.   There you go. There's your clothes. So, I mean, there are systems.   I also love boutiques. And I'm noting that noticing this more about boutiques that are color coded. There's a boutique in my town that you walk in, and she's got all the beige and neutral colors here.   She is all black and white here. She has all her blues here. And wow is easy to shop when they do that for you.   And I think that's coming back. I'm seeing that more, like I said, in independently owned boutiques. I don't think you're going to find that as much.   But even I went into the loft the other day and they had their clothes kind of in a color. So, that I think helps too. That helps a lot.   Laura Dugger: (47:25 - 47:37) That's a great tip for organizing our closet. And is there any edit that you would want to make to our makeup bag or addition that you just think everybody should try?   Carla Gasser: (47:39 - 48:58) We work with a company that does lipstick and lip gloss by color code. And it's called Lipstick Boss Beauty. And I sell that as well.   And I think women underestimate the power of a lip. Now, because I'm so pale, I absolutely need it. You know what I mean?   But even for people who aren't pale, she sells them by color code. And I have samples with me, and I always have women try it on. And they are so surprised at how it brings the look together.   You know, I know a lot of women are intimidated by a lot of makeup, eye makeup, whatever. But I say if you put on a lip gloss, a good foundation and blush and mascara, you don't have to worry about the rest if you're not into it. If you're into it, great, go.   But I also said when you go to Sephora or Ulta or even your local drugstore that has a lot of good makeup that you probably can use, bring your colors with you. That will help you pick out a blush. That will help you pick out a lip color.   But yeah, I think women totally underestimate just a simple lip gloss, tinted lip gloss or lipstick. I think it really pulls things together.   Laura Dugger: (48:59 - 49:11) And I love, I love that idea and just all of your offerings. So, if anybody wants to give this a try, can you share more about the resources that you have available?   Carla Gasser: (49:12 - 51:51) Yeah, I would think that the best place I would send them to is my website, which is just my name, www.carla, with a C, Gasser, G-A-S-S-E-R. And on there, there's a page that has all of my services. And one of the things on there that I keep telling women to take advantage of, you could book a free 15-minute consultation with me.   I do that for everyone. If you just don't even know where to start, and you're like, I just want to learn more. I just want to know how I could do this.   Also, my first client ever was from Canada, virtually. When I first got, you know, she had followed me for my faith resources and all of that. And when she saw I got certified, she reached out to me, and I can do virtual appointments.   If you send in your photo to me, we have a whole system of plugging it in and working through it. And we put a whole presentation, I create a customized presentation for you, and I send it to you. But we talk like this, but you know, I take your photo and I put it into kind of capes like this, but they're digital.   And we see, and so yes, but I would start with looking at my page and then booking that free 15-minute consultation to just ask me, you know, where do I start? What do you offer? And everything's listed there.   So, I also, if you want to be part of my email list, you could sign up online on that same page and you get access to a free style personality quiz. Because style personality, we talked about it a little bit earlier that you don't have to dress like me. We have four style personalities that we kind of curate, but I created a quiz so that you can kind of answer these questions and figure out, oh, I lean more towards this.   And once we do that, then I can tell you more what places to shop because I'm not going to send someone who is more of a casual, a natural chic to a Chico's. That doesn't fit their style. They would probably go to J.   Joe, you know? So, it's kind of that kind of a thing. So, that's just a fun little freebie that I give away if you want to sign up.   And my email list, I usually, my newsletter goes out almost every Tuesday or Wednesday with different tips. I give you links to things. I give you examples.   I'm really good about showing you pictures of things. We talk about trends. We talk about all kinds of things. So, yeah. And that's just free to be part of my newsletter.   Laura Dugger: (51:52 - 52:11) That is incredible. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode, which you can find on your podcast platform. Or if you go to thesavvysauce.com under show notes, you can find all of the links for today's episode. And are you willing to share, what are those four? Did you say personality?   Carla Gasser: (52:12 - 53:39) Yes. One is called natural chic. The next one is called classic modern.   The third one is style fashionista. And the fourth one is creative original. So, I ask you a ton of questions based on like, what do you feel comfortable in or what fabrics you like?   And based on that, you add up, you know, kind of, and if you're mostly A's, you're this, if you're mostly B's, you're this, C's, D's. So, it just helps you. Because again, I think that is a missing piece for a lot of women.   They don't know what their style is. And so, they look at someone like, oh, I love that. But why doesn't that look good on me?   I go, well, does it feel like you? Well, if it doesn't feel like you, then that's why you're not comfortable in it. You know?   And like I said, you know, I like to push the envelope a little bit more. I am not going to be, you know, a classic modern. I am more of a style fashionista or creative original.   I mean, I found this, this is like an old, in a boutique in Italy of all places. If you see, it's kind of like got these raw edges because they took a man's old suit jacket, cut it, and then put all these pearls on it. I mean, you're not going to find that.   And not every person wants to wear something like crazy as that, but I love it. You know? So that's my personality.   But someone else is just like, I just love silk and linen and good cotton. And I like to feel comfortable. Great. I can recommend tons of clothes for you and tons of places to shop.   Laura Dugger: (53:40 - 53:43) I love that. Well, and I think that piece is so fun.   Carla Gasser: (53:43 - 53:44) Thank you.   Laura Dugger: (53:44 - 54:09) And it's so great to see how you dress everything to your personality and you reflect beauty inside and out. But Carl, I think you may already be aware we're called the Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Carla Gasser: (54:11 - 55:06) I would say my Savvy Sauce is allowing God to transform me from the inside out and make me beautiful. I love the clothes. I love the fashion and the colors.   I've talked to you about it for over an hour. I could keep talking about it. It is a passion of mine, but if there was a secret Savvy Sauce to that, it would be inviting God in to transform me and make me beautiful from the inside out, because there are a lot of beautiful people out there, right?   But if they're not reflecting God's beauty, then we're missing it. And when I want people attracted to me, it's so that I can share with them the hope that's within, not so I can tell them where to get the best shirt or wear the best color. I want to ultimately bring them the hope of Jesus.   That's why I do it. So, that's my Savvy Sauce.   Laura Dugger: (55:07 - 55:40) Well said, Carla. You are a beautiful woman with a beautiful combination of giftings. I just love that you're a Bible teacher and a color analysis or consultant.   And that's in addition to the many other roles that you hold. But practical chats really do help us to live intentionally. And you've done that for us today.   So, thank you for sharing your fascinating career with us. I love your expertise and I really enjoyed getting to host you. So, thank you for being my guest.   Carla Gasser: (55:40 - 56:05) And thanks for doing what you're doing. I love stuff like this. This is great.   And it's bringing women together. And like you said, it's giving them that practical knowledge that we all need and can look for. There's so many places that you can go to, and not all of that knowledge is uplifting or leading you in the right direction.   So, I'm thankful for people like you who do what you do as well. So, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (56:05 - 59:22) Thank you. Appreciate that. One more thing before you go.   Have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.   But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.   So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much.   He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news.   Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what he has done for us.   Romans 10 9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So, would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.   I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity.   In Jesus name we pray. Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.   You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called the Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned.   So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone. Say it out loud.   Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.   Luke 15:10 says, "in the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with.   You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.  

May 4, 2026 - Amber Kaylor of Ronald McDonald House Charities of Central Illinois joined Byers & Co to talk about their recent Red Shoe Gala event in Springfield and ways that people can get involved with them. Listen to the podcast now!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A haunted school, a dragon-shaped lake, and a hero with ghostly powers. Meet Strangely Bumptious—a funny, spooky new middle-grade adventure set in central Illinois.

Synergy Home Care of Central Illinois hosts the conversation at its Iles Avenue office as Taylor Stevens joins Sam to talk about how the organization helps people remain independent in their homes. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Planting season is a time for renewal and labor, as the Midwest is home to some 180 million acres of corn and soybeans. There are hurdles every year, and 2026 is no different, with low crop prices coupled with high fertilizer costs.Fourth generation grower Jared Brown in Central Illinois grows 2,000 acres of corn and soybeans. This is his second year working with RDX-N® for nitrogen optimization, and so far the results are encouraging.“ We're going to have RDX-N® across half of our acreage this year,” Brown said. “We'll have really good data next year to say yes, it definitely paid us by cost savings number one, and number two if we can get a yield increase, it's just icing on the cake.” Brown was a top performer in nitrogen management trials with the National Corn Growers Association. He said more growers are intrigued with new technology like RDX-N® because low crop prices and high input costs have created more incentives to make efficiency gains. 

Welcome to the Torg Stories Podcast. On this episode, Anne and I are discussing the David Foster Wallace essay titled, “Derivative Sport in Tornado Alley.” Anne, if Wallace was a less creative writer, he could have called this “Playing Tennis in Central Illinois.”  Acceptance is its own verve -DFW Breaking down the title: Discussion questions:  … Continue reading "David Foster Wallace’s “Derivative Sport in Tornado Alley”"

For the longest time, Los Angeles has been the capital of the filmmaking industry in America. But that's been changing in recent years. In Illinois, more than 700 million dollars were spent on film production just last year. Central Illinois has had a share of that.

Susan Danenberger was diagnosed with Stage I breast cancer at 48, and again at 50 with Stage IV metastatic breast cancer (MBC). A fifth-generation farmer and winemaker, she owns Danenberger Family Vineyards in Central Illinois. In this episode, Susan reads her essay, “Rosé-Colored Glasses,” from the 2025 Body issue of Wildfire Journal. Her piece draws us into a deeply personal story of body image, beauty, and transformation after breast cancer—one that begins with stilettos and selfies, and unfolds into a powerful journey of reckoning and rebuilding. April and Susan will talk about autonomy in the context of cancer, trusting (and questioning) medical providers, seeing yourself through the eyes of others, and financial toxicity. They also discuss how connecting with other survivors at New York Fashion Week changed Susan's life.More about episode sponsor Young Survival Coalition: https://youngsurvival.org/Learn more about Susan:https://www.instagram.com/stilettosinthevineyard/https://danenbergerfamilyvineyards.com/Purchase the Body issue of Wildfire Journal: https://www.wildfirecommunity.org/shop/p/print-body25Buy the Wildfire book Igniting the Fire Within: Stories of Healing, Hope & Humor, Inside Today's Young Breast Cancer Community: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BJVJ629F?ref_=pe_3052080_397514860Get the free Wildfire “Hot Flashes” email newsletter: https://www.wildfirecommunity.org/newsletter?rq=newsletterLearn about Wildfire writing workshops: https://www.wildfirecommunity.org/workshopsShop Wildfire merch & more: https://www.wildfirecommunity.org/shop*Free* Get Wildfire and The Burn freebies here: https://www.wildfirecommunity.org/freeMore about Wildfire Journal: https://www.wildfirecommunity.orghttps://www.instagram.com/wildfire_bc_magazine/https://www.facebook.com/wildfirecommunityInformation on submitting your story for consideration to be published in Wildfire Journal: https://www.wildfirecommunity.org/submissions

April 6, 2026 - Amber Kaylor of Ronald McDonald House Charities of Central Illinois joined Byers & Co to talk about their 40th anniversary and their Red Shoe Gala event. Listen to the podcast now! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Toxic Relationships: Recognizing Narcissism in a Spouse, Parent, or Child with Kris Reece (Episode 288)   *Disclaimer* This episode contains mature content and user discretion is suggested.    Proverbs 27:6 AMP “Faithful are the wounds of a friend [who corrects out of love and concern], But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful [because they serve his hidden agenda].”   *Transcription Below*   Kris Reece is a Christian Author, Toxic Relationship Coach, and Manipulation Tactics Specialist. Kris equips believers to escape the grip of toxic relationships—especially those shaped by guilt, confusion, or spiritual distortion. Her work empowers Christians to set biblical boundaries and walk in emotional and spiritual freedom. Connect with her on Instagram or through her website.    Thank you to our sponsor for today's episode: Midwest Food Bank   Topics and Questions We Cover: In your opinion, can you be a Christian and a narcissist? Will you share a few of the toxic tactics narcissists use for power and control in relationships?  Will you define codependency for us and also reactive abuse and trauma bond?   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Podcast: 146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick 148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg 263. Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:10)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.   My captivating guest for this week is Kris Reece. She has an abundance of resources available online, and she's actually recently had this book published, Breaking the Narcissist's Grip. I cannot recommend this episode enough to you to find out about toxic relationships, whether that's with your parents or your adult children or your spouse. She's going to do a deep dive into narcissism. Help us understand it, help us identify those people in our lives, and most importantly, offer some hope, which is only possible through Jesus Christ. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kris.   Kris Reece: (1:31 - 1:34) Thank you so much for having me. I am so blessed to be here.   Laura Dugger: (1:34 - 1:48) Well, I am so grateful to have you, and you are in a unique line of work that is so needed. How did you get into this work of offering Christian advice for toxic relationships?   Kris Reece: (1:50 - 4:16) Well, I'll give you the short version of that story. So, I had been in the fitness industry for a good 20 plus years, and I went back to school for counseling and theology because I really wanted to be able to help people emotionally and mentally as opposed to just physically, right?   So, as I started to counsel people, there were women that were coming to me from all walks of life and all ages. I'm talking 16 years old all the way up to 86 years old. And no matter what their issue was, no matter what they were struggling with, they were coming to me for purpose or just growing in their faith. It all came down to one thing. And Laura, I think this might surprise you just as much as it surprised me. Toxic mothers. I was floored. And this wasn't the kind of thing where now we're just blaming mom for everything. No, this started to get revealed on all of the dysfunctions that were taking place within their relationship with their mother and how it had impacted them in so many areas of their lives. So, I said, “Lord, I need to dive deeper into this.” Now, I had already come out of, unfortunately, several toxic narcissistic relationships, not with my mother. So, that was very foreign to me. So, I started to dive deeper into how those same traits applied. And it was sad and it was very scary. So, I started teaching more on that.   And then they started coming out of the woodwork. But what about my husband? What about my daughter? What about my boss? What about my... And it was just like a flood. And it reached a point where, Laura, I got to confess to you. I took this to the Lord and I said, please don't send me. I don't want to do this. This is toxic. It's like you're just dealing with this toxicity all day long. And once I began to rest in, not just talking about the toxic relationships, but understanding where His heart was in it and the healing that He wants, not only for the toxic people, but those weren't the ones that were coming to me, the ones that were affected and infected by it, is when my heart started to shift. I said, “okay, God, all right, send me.” And here we are. Many, many years later.   Laura Dugger: (4:16 - 4:41) Well, you've done some incredible work. And I am shocked by that answer. Can you clarify too with the toxic mothers? That's not speaking to the mom who's trying her best asking the Lord for help and yet making mistakes. Would you consider them as mothers who are narcissists or does toxic embrace a wider?   Kris Reece: (4:41 - 6:01) Toxic can embrace a much wider spectrum. It could be borderline personality disorder, even a lot of codependent traits. If they're not harnessed properly or surrendered to the Lord, it can be very toxic to our relationship. You know, you're dealing with the guilt and the manipulation. No, we are not in any way talking about a mother who's made some mistakes, hands up, who's surrendering all this to the Lord and really just trying to find her way, you know, regardless of whether it's a newborn, an infant, a teenager or an adult child.   That's not what I'm referring to as a toxic mother. And some of them do struggle because it's so common for, I guess, young adults at this point to just be like, my mom's toxic because your mother had an opinion, because your mother is trying to get a little bit more time with you. Now, all of a sudden she's toxic. So, the label is unfortunate, but no, we're not referring to that type of mother. We're talking about the ones that have been approached lovingly and gently and are still standing firm in their manipulation, their guilt, their no, this is my way or the highway, their distorted view of scripture. I don't care if you're two or 42, you're called to obey me. That's the kind of toxic mother we're talking about.   Laura Dugger: (6:01 - 6:13) That is helpful. And then just to zero in on that term, narcissist, can you just help us understand what characteristics define a narcissist?   Kris Reece: (6:14 - 8:00) Yeah, absolutely. So, at its core, narcissism is less about confidence and it's more about this distorted sense of self. And that distorted sense is what damages relationships. Psychologically, narcissism can actually be marked by three pillars.   Number one is an exaggerated sense of self-importance. They quite honestly believe that the world revolves around them. Two is a deep need for admiration. They crave validation and praise, and we call that supply. So, if you're giving it to them, you're on their good side. You're not, you're on the bad side. And then lastly is their lack of empathy. This is a true hallmark of narcissism. But I know you didn't ask this, but we kind of go down a little bit of a rabbit trail.   Now that narcissists are starting to catch on to what these traits look like, they're doing what we call performative empathy. So, they're looking and they're saying all the right words. One of my, I love to say is they got the words, they ain't got the music. So, you really have to understand what true empathy looks like, but they lack empathy. So, and then what happens is from those traits are going to flow three roots, entitlement, arrogance, and manipulation. They twist everything and it's all about them. And one of the things that we need to understand is that a one-time selfish act doesn't make someone a narcissist. I've said some things that, oh boy, that I need to repent of. It doesn't make somebody a narcissist, but a lifestyle of self-protective empathy, lacking behavior at the expense of others. Yeah. Raise the red flag.   Laura Dugger: (8:01 - 8:22) That's helpful. That even shows us the difference between a little self-absorbed or mistakes made and a narcissist. But then I'm also curious as we're raising children, do these traits show up early in life or when are they usually identifiable?   Kris Reece: (8:23 - 10:25) That's a great question. One that I don't think you're ever going to be able to get a solid answer from anyone on, because narcissistic traits, while they don't just appear out of nowhere, we can say that they're formed in childhood. And we can say that probably almost every child is a bit narcissistic. I mean, we don't get like the terrible mind, mind twos from nowhere. I mean, as children, as human beings, I mean, even scripture tells us we are innately selfish. Our heart is deceptively wicked. So, the point of childhood is for the parents to now pull that out of the child, to grow that out. Right. And a lot of times that doesn't take place. So, what we have to understand is that the roots usually form in childhood, but the fruit shows up later in life.   So, in childhood, you may notice things like entitlement, this extreme sensitivity to criticism, but kids, like we said, are naturally self-focused. So, that's actually going to be part of their normal development. So, kids are self-centered by nature, but narcissism becomes very concerning when someone never grows out of it. So, when we start to see by the teen years, you see that pattern take place and how they handle correction, how they handle empathy and accountability. And if empathy isn't growing, but entitlement is, oh, we've got a pretty big sign. So, now by adulthood, those narcissistic traits, they just become unmistakable.   You see the manipulation, the blame shifting, the lack of accountability, the control, especially when life requires any type of humility. So, immaturity says, I messed up. Narcissism says, you made me do it.   Laura Dugger: (10:25 - 11:04) Oh, that's helpful. And I guess just to put parents at ease, if they are parenting, let's say tweens and teens, I'd love to hear your take on this, but something we learned in grad school was that they said, “don't freak out when your child, even when your teen does this, because a lot of times teenagers could be fitting all of the description in the DSM for multiple things.” And that is part of adolescence and going through puberty and everything. But what I hear you saying is then if that pattern continues into adulthood, especially as you're developing certain things, but lacking empathy, that's one big concern. Is that correct?   Kris Reece: (11:04 - 12:07) That is correct. That is why they don't diagnose teenagers with narcissism, because quite honestly, I would say about 98% of them would be diagnosed. So, no, that's why we don't, because a lot of teenagers are that way. So, yes, don't panic if your teenagers are acting that way. But the other thing that I would also say is don't chalk it up to a phase. It's a great opportunity to speak the truth in love. You may not think they're hearing it. You may not think they're receiving it, but we are responsible as parents for obedience, not outcome. Of course, we want the best outcome for our children possible, but we can't just chalk up those traits as, ah, they're just being teenagers. Ah, it's just a phase. No, as your parent, I need to teach you and train you out of that phase, not force you out of the phase, but I need to train you out of that phase. And then the rest is going to be up to them.   Laura Dugger: (12:07 - 12:22) That's good. Knowing who's part to own. And would you say part of that then is disciplining them and discipling them, training them in the ways that we would think of or anything that you would add for how to help train our children out of these characteristics?   Kris Reece: (12:23 - 13:39) Absolutely. So, we do want to train them in the way they're supposed to go. So, when there is entitlement, we don't chalk it up to a phase. We don't continue to give what they're expecting. So, there needs to be consequences for behavior. And I'm not talking harsh punishment, but there's two sides. So, if there is really bad behavior that needs to stop, then there needs to be a consequence for that. On the flip side, if it's behavior that could kind of be borderline, and I don't mean borderline personality, I just mean borderline in terms of is this bad or is this a phase, then it's a talking too.   Hey, why did you decide to handle your classmate in this way? What do you think could have been a better way? What was the point of your outcome? What were you hoping the outcome would be, I should say? And then starting to really guide them through that, because they're still in their very formative years in terms of processing, in terms of how to cope with things. So, if they're now going to start defaulting to patterns that maybe that was taught or caught, we really want to take that opportunity to train them out of that. And we can do that with gentleness and love. And then, of course, use consequences when necessary.   Laura Dugger: (13:40 - 13:52) That is so well summed up, Kris. I appreciate that. And then what are some types of narcissism that make it especially difficult to recognize at first?   Kris Reece: (13:53 - 16:40) Oh, my favorite one. And I say that with seeping sarcasm. Is the covert narcissist. We would call that one the quiet one. And now if you want to add another layer of complexity, the Christian covert narcissist. This one is going to be the hardest type to detect because they don't look confident. They look wounded. They use self-pity. They use guilt. They use this emotional fragility. But they're using it to control others. And what we have to recognize is covert narcissists, they don't dominate the room. They dominate your emotions. They play the victim. So, you now feel responsible for their feelings, their life, their outcome. That's a scary one.   The other one is what we call the communal or we could refer to them as more of the spiritual narcissist. This is what we would refer to as the helper or the holy one. So, they appear really generous. Big servant's heart, maybe in a serving profession. They're spiritually devoted, but it's all about image. And they're going to use the good deeds. They're going to use the faith, the ministry, or their morality as proof of their superiority. And they may quote the Bible, but they will use shame, silence, and scripture to control others.   And the other one is, this is a little bit more of the obvious one, but we often disguise this in our society. And that's the overt. This is your classic narcissist. This is the one that people recognize. They're loud, they're attention seeking, they're boastful, they're arrogant, and they are just outwardly entitled. But we often, depending on the position that they're in, in business or politics, we're like, oh, they're confident. Oh, they're good leaders. They could be classic overt narcissists. And a lot of times these narcissists really go unrecognized because they always, always start with the charm or the kindness. My favorite is the connection. They establish this connection with you. They're gonna mirror your values, your interests, and yes, even your faith. And a lot of times they appear very wounded or generous, and the whole intention is to now just disarm you. Bottom line is a lot of narcissists, they're gonna wear different masks, but at the core, they're all the same.   Laura Dugger: (16:41 - 18:35) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, and Washington, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. And make sure you check out their newest offering; the McKinley located in Pekin is a new construction addition to their platinum collection. Featuring nine-foot ceilings, large spacious layouts, beautiful finishes such as quartz countertops and garages, you won't want to miss this outstanding new property.   In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect. And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. If you want to become part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department. So, we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them. Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.   Do narcissists recognize or ever admit to being narcissists? Can they ever see that in themselves?   Kris Reece: (18:36 - 20:20) That's a great question. And that's actually two-sided. So, the one where I would say no, they don't see that in themselves. They see themselves truly as entitled, as somebody who's been given the short straw, somebody who is owed something, the victim. They honestly don't see themselves as narcissistic.   Then there's another side where they sort of see it and they actually will use that now to their advantage. See, this makes me somebody who is self-reflective. This is somebody who is, I'm willing to recognize where I've gone wrong. But the problem is, there's no depth there. You'll get generalities like, oh, I know I'm not perfect, but, and then you'll get a litany of justifications or you'll, I know I'm not perfect, but all of your sins are now laid out in detail. So, they will, if they do recognize it, they will use it to their advantage.   Now there is that final subset that does start to recognize and they see, I don't want to be this way. Wow, I've caused a lot of destruction to relationships. I do want to change. And that road is really long, really long. But I'm not, I'm not of the camp that believes that narcissists don't change. They can, if they want to. It takes a lot to recognize it. And I've seen some do.   Laura Dugger: (20:22 - 21:11) I appreciate that hope. You don't always hear that very often with this type of personality. But I think one more piece that has always been so confusing to me when loved ones have shared that they're in a relationship with someone who is a narcissist, whether that's their spouse or their parent is where I've been in friendship with people before. But they, all of their stories, no matter where they live in the world, the narcissist seems to struggle with the same things. They seem to act the same way. They're master manipulators. And I just don't understand how they all have the same playbook. And like you say, they lie even when they don't have to. So, as you've thought about this, are there any reasons why it's so similar across the board?   Kris Reece: (21:14 - 23:27) Yes, because by nature, they are, they're lazy. They don't want to put in an effort. And they're also, what word would I use to describe this? It's almost like they're aliens to empathy. So, if you could imagine an alien coming from, I don't believe in aliens, so please don't hear what I'm not saying, but let's just imagine for a moment, you know, they come on this earth and they're like, oh, I got to adapt myself to these people. I got to fit in. What do I do? So, they're going to start listening. They're going to start mimicking behaviors and they're going to start testing to see what works and what doesn't work. So, for them, now we go back to that whole childhood thing. If they've learned that the only way to get what I want is to lie, the only way to get people to see me as XYZ is to manipulate, that's what they're going to do. And they're going to do it by default.   And that's what people don't understand is that default mechanisms are so powerful that even a master manipulator could turn around and say, “you know, I really, I recognize, yeah, I do manipulate a little bit.” And then when push comes to shove, if they have not done the hard work to begin to dig and really understand where it came from, why it's there and start to develop the patterns to override it, they're going to default to the same way every single time.   And that's why they lie so easily. It's just a default. Now, I'm not saying that as an excuse, but it's a default. And what they also don't realize is that this is not just psychological. This is spiritual. Narcissism is fueled by pride, deception, and control. Is that describing anybody we know? That's the enemy to the core. So, it's not that they're all just studying the same playbook. It is that they're all influenced by the same spirit. And that's what we're struggling with.   Laura Dugger: (23:29 - 24:00) Wow. And that really, there was an aha moment, and I wrote this down, kind of what you're saying. But on page 133, you said, “it's like they're demonically inspired or at the very least, influenced.” And I think that makes so much sense. Even the insidious ways that they are cunning or crafty, that they're influenced by our enemy. That makes a lot more sense. Anything else that you would want to add to that?   Kris Reece: (24:02 - 25:36) Yes. When we look at, I hate to, I don't like to label people. But when we look at how the enemy operates, let's look at how Satan operates. Kill, steal, destroy. Control, pride, deception, manipulation. If he is now influencing these people and they are not putting up any of the barriers, they're continuing to give him a foothold. They are now walking in his purpose. So, if Satan is looking to do this to you, why wouldn't his ambassadors? They are highly influenced by his behaviors, and they don't even realize it. So, yes, we can have compassion. We can take this to prayer because any stronghold can be broken. But that's got to be done by the power of Christ.   So, we pray for their eyes to be open. We pray for them to see the wickedness of their ways and give them a desire to turn from it. But you're not going to change that. It's not going to happen, especially when it is so deeply spiritually rooted. Because a lot of times we get caught in the, well, I'm a good person. Well, I would never behave that way. If I knew I was doing that, I'd want to change. So, we think that our explanation alone is really just going to be the aha moment for the narcissist, right? So, we explain, we re-explain, we over-explain. And then what we don't realize is that now we just got caught in that trap as well. We're now playing that game on their turf and we're not going to win. We have got to hand over this spiritual battle to the Lord.   Laura Dugger: (25:37 - 25:54) Okay, so then that makes me wonder, you said that there is hope. So, how is this treatable? You've kind of let us in on a little bit of it, but also can you just share if you have ever seen someone repent or change their ways?   Kris Reece: (25:56 - 28:30) Yes, more than one. I've seen it on more than one occasion. It is a journey. It does not come from you just over loving them and just giving them passes and excuses and being more like Christ. It's usually from what I refer to as a two-by-four moment.   When God just clunks them over the head, everything is lost, everything is gone, and everything that they held so dearly, meaning everything that was holding them up. So, if you can think about narcissists, they can't function on their own. They don't have their own self-identity. They don't have their own self-discipline. They don't have any other self-regulation. They have no sense of self. So, everything is external. So, when God is looking to change somebody, guess what's going to happen? He's going to start kicking out those crutches one by one, and then they're going to get the two-by-four moment, which is that knock over the head, like that road to Damascus experience that Paul went through. It's like, hello, are we going to wake up here?   And that is when they start to have their awakening, and that is when they begin to pursue, hey, I think change might be possible. This is what happens to me. And then in that environment, if they're able to get met with then the love and the compassion, again, not the enabling, then you'll start to see that change begin to unfold. Narcissism is treatable, but not in the way people often imagine. It's not this surface-level behavioral issue. It's not getting somebody to say, I'm sorry, or getting somebody to validate you. It is a deep identity and a heart issue that is rooted in pride. And I don't know about you, there is not enough experience on the planet. I could never take somebody through that. That has got to be a God moment.   And that's where I want to just caution people sometimes, especially if we struggle with codependency, thinking that we are now responsible for these people, that maybe God planted me in their lives for such a time as this. Stop, stop, stop. Guard your heart. Allow God to heal you of what's driving you now to want to fix this person. And truly, truly, if you really love this person, pray for them, go into warfare for them, but hand them over to the Lord.   Laura Dugger: (28:32 - 28:48) Okay, so then another spiritual question, Kris, in your opinion, can someone be a Christian, a true born-again believer, and a narcissist? Ah, I love and I hate this question.   Kris Reece: (28:52 - 32:44) Hilary, you're going to love and hate my answer. Yes and no. So, in one sense, yes. In the sense that somebody can actually profess faith and faith in Christ but still live in a way that looks absolutely nothing like him. And we see this all throughout scripture. But claiming Christ and following Christ are not the same thing. And that's where I believe that there are times where it's no. You know, just because you had an altar moment where some way, somehow your belly was full, you were well rested, the music was just right, and you came to this place of, okay, I'm going to give my life to Christ at the altar, but you continued in your iniquity for the next 30 years. I really have to seriously question your salvation. But it's not my job to question someone's salvation. But I can question your walk. If I'm not seeing the fruit of that walk, I don't know that I can call you a brother or a sister. If you continue to walk in that route of pride and self-exaltation and manipulation, it's not of God. So, there's a difference between a Christian who's struggling and a Christian who's just refusing to admit any of the error of their ways. One of the questions that we really have to ask is, can a narcissist be saved? And the answer to that is absolutely. Jesus came for the broken, the blind, the hard-hearted, every single last one of them. But that transformation is going to require repentance.   So, yes, I think our hope always needs to be in, Lord, you can save them. If you saved a wretch like me, you could save them. So, now what happens is our prayer needs to now shift. Lord, give them a heart of repentance, a willingness to see themselves truthfully and surrender to your work. That's where our prayer now needs to shift. Not, Lord, get them to stop doing this, get them to stop doing that, get them out of here, move them on. Because if it is God's heart that none should perish, it should be our heart that none should perish. But all should come to repentance. So, that's where our prayer needs to be. So, yes, while there is hope, we're not mini-Jesuses. It's not going to happen. It's not our responsibility. Sometimes our responsibility is actually to step out of the way and allow them to suffer their own consequences, because that is what starts to bring a narcissist to themselves. Not always, but oftentimes. You know what it's reminding me of is the scripture in 1st or 2nd Corinthians, I can't remember, is when Paul commanded the young man who was sleeping with his stepmother to be cast out of the church, get rid of him, to send him out. And here's what he said, “Give him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh.” So, it wasn't like, get rid of him. He's a piece of dirt. We don't want anything to do with him anymore. It's like, okay, if that's the lifestyle he wants to live, then let him live it. And let Satan have his way. So, his flesh is now destroyed. Not him as a person, but his flesh is destroyed. And that's really what narcissists are. They're very fleshly people. I want what I want when I want it, and I'm going to do whatever I can to get it. So, we really want to change our prayer to the Lord, lead them to repentance.   Laura Dugger: (32:49 - 34:01) Updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them or watch them now that we're offering video rather than just audio. So, we heard all of that, and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.   Will you also share a few of the toxic tactics that narcissists typically use for power and control in relationships?   Kris Reece: (34:02 - 36:33) Yes, actually one of their favorite ones is gaslighting. And I think it's just a word that is so overused and abused, but it is so accurate because it's not just lying, it is denying, it is distorting, and it is rewriting reality with the intention to make you doubt yourself, your memory, your feelings, or even your sanity. Tell me that's not wicked. I don't know what it is. It's manipulation at its finest. And the same with love bombing, which is another one of their tactics. At the start, or not even just at the start, maybe when they recognize that you've had enough, like that's it, I'm putting my foot down, I'm setting boundaries, sometimes they'll come in with that love bombing. And what they do is they start to overwhelm you with the affection and the attention and the promises and the chores and all those things that you've been just fighting for all those years. What they're looking to do is to recreate or recreate that emotional dependency, because it's not about love to them, it's about bait. So, in their mind, they're not going, oh no, I'm losing this relationship. Let me get my act together. It's, oh no, I'm losing control. Let me get him or her back into my clutches. So, those are two of the very common ones.   Another one is projection. You want to know what a narcissist is doing? Listen to what they're accusing you of. That will tell you clearly what they've got going on. Lying, selfishness, anger, cheating, hiding, whatever it is, they want to put you on the defensive instead of facing their truth. So, what it does is it puts the spotlight on you and keeps it off them. So, those are some of the most common tactics that they're going to use. And it's on a spectrum. They will do it to different degrees. They'll do it in different ways to different relationships. But they're always going to do what has worked in the past. So, again, once your eyes start to open, now it becomes more difficult. And now their tactics start to change just a little bit. Remember, they're the alien. They're here. They've now got to figure this out. They're like, oh, this isn't working anymore. So, they're going to try to figure out what does work. And that's where you need to be very careful. Know them by their fruit. Fruit takes time to develop.   Laura Dugger: (36:35 - 36:45) Okay. Even that term gaslighting, I think it can be hard to understand. Can you give an example of what that would look like in a relationship?   Kris Reece: (36:46 - 37:50) Yeah, absolutely. So, you can go to, let's say, your spouse and you tell them, you know, when you said this to me, it really hurt my feelings. An obvious form of gaslighting could be, I never said that. You're misunderstanding me. Now, a lot of times people become savvy enough to have proof. No, no, no. You did say that. See, it's right here. Well, that's not what I meant. And you should know that. If you were a good Christian, you would know that that's not what I meant. You know that I get a little confused. You know that I mix up my words.   And what they're doing is they're trying to distort your feelings instead of just owning. Wow. I didn't intend to make you feel that way, but I could see that it left an impact on you. They will skirt around all of that. They will make you question yourself. They will even deny, they will flat out deny that they said or did anything.   Laura Dugger: (37:52 - 38:26) And I see where this gets so confusing for the person in relationship with them, because there's extra layers that you talk about and even extra tactics, like pathological lying that are added in there too. Yep. But they will flat out deny it. Yeah. Well, there's also a few more terms that I'd love for you to explain, just because they may come up throughout our conversation this week and next week. So, will you define codependency for us and also reactive abuse and trauma bond?   Kris Reece: (38:27 - 43:41) Oh, absolutely. These are all very powerful and they are issues that can leave. I hate to use the word victim because we may be victimized, but if you're in Christ, you are not a victim. You have a hope and a future. God can meet you and do exceedingly abundantly above what you could ask, hope or think. But codependency, reactive abuse and trauma bonds are all very real and they often travel together. But they're different pieces of the same trap.   So, when we look at codependency, this is where your sense of worth or peace now depends on someone else's mood or approval. It's like saying, if you're okay, I'm okay. If you're not okay, I'm not okay. So, I need you to be okay. Okay. And you start to manage other people's emotions instead of your own. And that's when we start to confuse enabling with loving because at the core of it, we want to feel okay and they're not okay. So, we have to get them okay. And that's where that caring now turns into control.   So, now we get into reactive abuse. This is often very misunderstood because this happens a lot in churches. So, I want you to picture this. You have a married couple. Let's just say he is for the, just for the sake of our conversation. There are, there are a lot of female narcissists out there, but let's just say the male is the narcissist and he is gaslighting and he is abusive at home, but it's borderline. It's like, you know, he's a little insulting. He's a bit harsh. He's not loving. He's not nurturing. But boy, when he's at church, oh, he's everybody's pal. He's serving all the time. So, now when they go to counseling, they're sitting in front of the pastor, and she's got years and years and years of this abuse that has taken place. And she's now reacting to it. She's elevated. She's yelling, she's screaming, she's crying. And guess what happens? He's sitting there cool as a cucumber. I really don't understand. I mean, I know I've not been perfect and that's where the reactive abuse is taking place because she's now reacting to all of those years of manipulation and provocation and now questioning her own sanity because she knows what's going on. So, she's got that, what we refer to as cognitive dissonance going on.   She's like, well, wait a minute, he's done this, saying this, this isn't making sense. I know I'm not losing it, but I feel like I'm losing it. And that's what's taking place. So, she just explodes because she has no idea what's going on. Her sanity is in question right now. So, to that pastor, guess who looks like the problem? She does. So, if you would just react a little bit more gently when he brings something to you, you may not have this problem. And if she's a Christian, she's going to go back and recognize the error of her ways, which that is a problem. You know, we are responsible for how we react, but she's owning now all of it. So, now let's take a step back.   What is reactive abuse? It happens when you finally explode after those long periods of manipulation and provocation. The abuser then points to your reaction as the proof that you are the problem. And that keeps the guilt train going.   The trauma bond is what happens with trauma bonds is they form when your brain gets hooked on the cycles of fear and relief. And we also go back to that cognitive dissonance. We're like, oh, wait a minute. Okay, he's this way one minute and he's this way another minute. So, is he good? Is he bad? I don't, I don't, instead of the brain being able to say, he's both, you've got both of this going on and we need to deal with this. We're trying to put either a bad blanket on it or a good blanket on it. So, we get hooked in these cycles in the relationship. And what we're chasing is that constant good time. Maybe we had a great time at the gala and he was so wonderful. He was even kind to me after we got in the car, and those small moments of kindness start to release the dopamine, and they convince you to stay even though the big picture is you're being hurt long term.   It's like the frog in the boiling pot. They don't even realize it. But the good news, codependency, reactive abuse, and trauma bonds, once you recognize these patterns, you can begin to renew your mind, break the cycle and allow the Holy Spirit to retrain your heart towards peace instead of that counterfeit connection.   Laura Dugger: (43:43 - 44:06) Wow. That is so well summed up. And if somebody is recognizing that they're in that cycle or if they're identifying they're in a relationship with a narcissist, do you have a practical first step as we're starting to wind down our time together today? Anything that they could do before they tune in next week?   Kris Reece: (44:07 - 45:13) Absolutely. So, the first thing you're going to want to do is to release these feelings of shame and bringing this before God. Your time right now with the Lord can be precious and incredibly restorative. My hope would be that we take our focus off of them. Yes, I get it. We're starting to identify. We're recognizing. And all that can be very enlightening. But be careful not to fall into the enemy's trap of now overanalyzing, over fixing, over controlling.   Take this before the Lord and say, “God, what are you trying to do in me?” Because for whatever reason, He's allowed this relationship. For whatever reason, He's not allowing you out of it. There's a lot of work that He's going to want to begin to do in you. And this is not to say this is your responsibility, but I promise you at the end of this road, if you walk this with Him, there will be a life that is beyond your imagination. Whether it's in the relationship or not, I'm not sure, but it will be beyond your imagination.   Laura Dugger: (45:15 - 45:24) Thank you again for sharing the hope, Kris. And where can we go in between these weeks if we want to continue learning more from you?   Kris Reece: (45:25 - 45:43) Oh, that'd be great. I would love if you'd jump on over to my website. It's krisreece.com. That's Kris with a K, Reece with a C. And you're going to find a wealth of content and resources, some of them free resources. And it's also where you can find my new book. It's called Breaking the Narcissist's Grip. Or you can just jump on Amazon for that as well.   Laura Dugger: (45:44 - 46:01) Wonderful. We'll add links for all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And you're familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, Kris, what is your savvy sauce?   Kris Reece: (46:02 - 47:06) My savvy sauce is going to be very practical. I'm a really practical gal. And this may sound like a cliche, so I want you to kind of stick with me a little bit, but it has changed my life. And that is practicing the pause. In these difficult relationships, whether you were reactive before or not, you are now. And we want to begin to practice that pause because toxic people really want to dictate the emotional temperature of the conversation.   So, before you respond, before you react, before you decide anything, just one pause. And you got to ask yourself this one question. This is what I do. I say, is this led by peace or pressure? And that question has saved me from countless toxic conversations and impulsive decisions. So, before you respond, pause, because peace is always going to tell you the truth faster than pressure ever will.   Laura Dugger: (47:08 - 47:37) Well, so well said. I love that. And you are, I'm just so grateful that you were called to this work and that you did surrender to the Lord. Here I am. Send me with your book and the way that you're communicating today and all of these resources that you put together. I think a lot of people are going to find healing and hope. And that's my prayer as we conclude our time together. But I'm just very grateful for you, Kris. So, thank you for being my guest.   Kris Reece: (47:37 - 47:41) Thank you. Thank you. It's been such a blessing and an honor. I am so appreciative.   Laura Dugger: (47:43 - 51:25) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

On this week's episode of Out and About, Dr. Mae Gilliland of ArtsPartners of Central Illinois talks with Claire McQuerry, Associate Professor and Director of Creative Writing at Bradley University, about an upcoming poetry reading and Q&A with acclaimed poet Adrienne Su.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/weather-with-enthusiasm--4911017/support.

KT Tunstall will be performing in Central Illinois on March 23rd 2026 at Bradley University's Dingeldine Music Center in Peoria, IL. She spoke about this upcoming performance, her "Top Tips" on Instagram, and even the recent 20th anniversary release of her album, Eye To The Telescope. You can purchase tickets to KT's performance in Peoria at the event page on Event Brite. If you are unable to attend the Peoria concert, she will be on tour throughout 2026 with O.A.R. and later Brandi Carlile. Find tour dates, merch, and more at her website. KT is even very active on her Instagram and social media. Thank you for listening to this latest episode of A-SIDES and huge thanks to KT Tunstall and 99.9 WWCT.

On this week's episode of Out and About, Dr. Mae Gilliland of ArtsPartners of Central Illinois talks with Catherine Lawless, Bradley University's Associate Director of Continuing Education, about the launch of the new Dallinger Series.

Titus 3:3-8 NIV “At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.”   *Transcription Below*   Hunter Beless is an author of several children's books including Read It, See It, Say It, Sing It! and Amy Carmichael: The Brown-Eyed Girl Who Learned to Pray. She is also a Bible teacher, co-author of Titus: Displaying the Gospel of Grace and the founder of Journeywomen Ministries, which empowers women to live out their faith through deep commitment to their local church. Hunter hosts the Journeywomen Podcast, sharing resources and insightful conversations with women of faith. She and her husband, Brooks, have four beautiful children, whom Hunter homeschools. You can find her on Instagram @hunterbeless, or at https://www.hunterbeless.com/books. Journeywomen Podcast   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Questions and Topics We Cover: 1. What rhythms have been most profitable to you (spiritually, relationally, physically, and productively?)  2. In your own home, how have you intentionally helped your children know and love God through Scripture?  3. How is the Gospel useful for not only salvation, but also sanctification?   Similar Episodes from The Savvy Sauce: 16 Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Rach Kincaid 57 Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee 150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh 166 Journey from Empty to Well Nourished Soul with Gretchen Saffles  207 Cultivating Character in Our Children with Cynthia Yanof Special Patreon Release Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro 267 Apologetics with Ray Comfort 274 Holy Spirit Stories and Fruit and Ways to Identify His Guidance in Our Lives with Margaret Feinberg   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:16) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.   My guest for today is Hunter Beless, and you may recognize her as the founder of Journey Women Ministries. She's also a podcaster and an author of multiple books, including this recent one, Jesus Loves You More. Hunter is going to share today about all things discipleship.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Hunter.    Hunter Beless: (1:17 - 1:23) Thank you so, much for having me. I just love the concept of this show, and I'm excited to be here with you today.    Laura Dugger: (1:23 - 1:56) Well, I've been looking so, forward to getting to chat with you. You've been on my list for years, so, I'm thankful this worked out. And even, it may have been years ago, but I heard you publicly share that you had chosen to put your faith in Christ in elementary school, I believe. But then as you transitioned into high school, you were open about then choosing to pursue the ways of the world. So, will you just speak to that experience and talk to that teenage girl who's currently facing some similar temptations?    Hunter Beless: (1:56 - 6:39) Oh, that'd be such a privilege to get to speak to any young woman who is in a situation like this. I often think, like, if I would have just had one older friend who was encouraging me in the Lord, who would be willing to testify to God's grace in her life, and who would reach back and try and help me just to continue walking in the grace that he had extended to me through his son, like, I wonder if it would have gone differently for me, Laura. But, you know, the Lord did save me at a young age, and I lived fervently for him, loved God's word, even from a young age.    And I remember, like, seeing groups of people that I wanted to like me, and wanting so, desperately to be accepted by them. But knowing that when I opened the pages of scripture, the Holy Spirit brought conviction to my heart in a way that would not allow me to act in accordance with the things that these groups were doing, in order to be approved of by them. And so, I thought to myself, "Well, maybe I'll just stop reading my Bible so, much." This is about eighth or ninth grade. And, you know, then I won't feel a sense of conviction when it comes to, like, these behaviors that I know I need to, you know, adapt to, in order to be approved of by the people that I deemed, you know, significant. And so, I set my Bible aside.    And it's a really sad story. I mean, as I continued to spend time outside of God's word, I would still go to church with my family and things like that on Sunday mornings. But I just began to look less and less like a follower of Christ, and more and more like the world. And eventually, you know, I spent my entire duration of my high school years doing that. And I have to tell you; I just went back to my 20-year high school reunion. And there was a girl that I saw there. And she told me what a jerk I was in that season of my life. And it was such a wonderful thing to be reminded of what it looks like for me to not be walking in the Spirit, but to be walking in the flesh. And to really have to reckon with, that is what it looks like to be walking like the world.    And I just told her, I said, "You know what, you're completely right." I said, "I was." I was totally looking out for my good and not for the good of others. I was absolutely living for myself and not for the Lord. But by God's grace, when it came time for my senior year of high school, he allowed me to get to the end of myself. And you would have thought, like, looking back, I had the resume, I had the 4.0, I had the salutatorian status, I was the president of my high school senior class. You would have thought, this girl's crushing it. But I had never been more anxious, more depressed, more insecure, more selfish, obviously, as testified to by the girl that I just referenced, than I was in that season of my life.    And I remember I had a youth pastor who had just come into our church. And he said, "Hey," he said, "How's your time in the word looking?" And I said, "Well, I could either lie, or I could tell the truth." And I said, "You know, it's looking pretty, pretty bleak." And he said, "I just want to challenge you to get back in God's word." And at the same time, my dad had a tragic accident. It was a near death accident. And I was kind of reckoned with the brevity of life as a senior in high school. And I cried out to the Lord. And I said, "God, if you really are who you say you are, would you show me who you are through your word?"    And that sparked, Laura, this passion for God's word. And it allowed me then to see the difference in my own life, what it looks like for Hunter to be walking without listening to the voice of God, and what it looked like for Hunter to have her face in her Bible, and to seek to live by God's word. And I tell you what, I probably don't look nearly as impressive by the world's standards. But the joy and the peace, and really just the transformation that the Lord has accomplished in my life through his word, is something that I cannot stop testifying to. And I just cannot encourage women enough, like if you are wrestling with the flesh, to get into God's word, because God works by the power of the Holy Spirit through his word in the lives of his people. And so, that's why really this whole passion has just overtaken my life for God's word.    Laura Dugger: (6:40 - 6:59) Wow, that is incredible to hear that transformation, because God did it, and God can do it again. And God can do it for each one of us listening. But you are so passionate about discipling others. Can you first tell us, what were some of the significant ways that you've been discipled?    Hunter Beless: (7:00 - 10:07) Yeah, well, I went to college, and that was the first time that I had ever really had someone seeking to do spiritual good in my life, outside of my parents. And really, even with my parents, like, you know, sitting down intentionally studying the word, that wasn't a part of our family culture. And so, when I went to college, there was a girl, her name was Meredith. And I remember, she sat down, and she taught me how to read my Bible, for really the very first time. I remember being confronted with some of the truths of scripture, Laura, and I'm like, "That's in the Bible? That disrupts me. Like, I didn't know that, you know?" And so, it was such a wonderful time, just of really kind of being confronted with my own theological ideas from my, you know, lack of ability and time to really understand the message of the text, you know, and then to really reevaluate that and be conformed to the text and to allow it to conform me. So, Meredith had a significant influence in my life in how to study the Bible.    And then I had an older woman named Joyce, who at the time, I believe, was in her late 40s, maybe early 50s. And I just remember, Joyce found out that I began to memorize scripture. So, somewhere along the way, I realized, like, this book is so, significant that I need to start, you know, hiding scripture away in my heart. Some of that was just watching my own grandmother and seeing the way that the Lord had used scripture in her own life. And realizing, like, wow, if my grandmother has these truths hidden away in her heart for this season, and she had dementia, I need to start hiding scripture away in my heart, too. So, Joyce and I really, we started up a group on scripture memory.    And I'll never forget the first time I met her, she said, "Hey, I heard you're starting to memorize Ephesians." I never finished. But she said, "Let's hear it." And so, she just opened up her Bible. And I just started quoting Ephesians. And one of Joyce's coined phrases that at the time I didn't realize was actually scripture itself, she would hold the Bible out in front of me. And she would say, "Hunter, this is no empty word for you, but your very life." And she had so many phrases like that, that I didn't even realize at the time, because I was pretty biblically illiterate, that were the words of scripture themselves. That's Deuteronomy 32:47. And Joyce really embodied that message for me, that scripture is that man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. And so, watching her just live with her face in her Bible, proverbially speaking, and seeking to meditate on its truths and live by those day in and day out really transformed who I am even today. And she gave me a picture of what I'd like to look like years down the road.    So, I've had various mentors, but those are some of the first. And the Lord definitely used them in significant ways to do spiritual good in my life.    Laura Dugger: (10:08 - 10:36) And I don't know what kind of life those women lead if they're in public or more private disciplines, but their faithfulness, you just see the impact how it ripples out to bless generations. And even you, Hunter, you're leading this incredible ministry, where you disciple others through helping women know and love God through his word. So, will you share how you ended up getting to do this awesome work that you get to do today?    Hunter Beless: (10:37 - 15:41) Oh, well, the beginnings of this, you would not have thought were awesome. And in fact, you and I were just chatting, and I still am recording out of my closet. And really, it's all just been an overflow of what the Lord has been doing in my own life. And I did feel like along the way, I just, I began to just love learning from older women. And I do think that's a biblical, like scriptural kind of practice. You look at Titus 2, you see the older women are to teach the younger women what is good. I was a younger woman who loved learning from older women. And so, I had this, over the years, this just long list of women who had invested in me who had, you know, testified to God's grace in their life, who had taught me the scriptures.    And when my husband Brooks and I were in the military, we found ourselves on post. And just due to the transiency of a military lifestyle, the churches around military installations tend to be a little bit tired, sometimes depleted, because people in the military are moving so, frequently. So, it's hard, right, to have continuity to see people through in their discipling process and all of that. And so, I really missed those mentors that I'd had from college, and the year after college, after coming into marriage. And so, I thought to myself, like, man, I want the other women. I was also interfacing with either believers or non-believers who really had never been discipled. And I thought, man, I just wish I could get you with Joyce, or I wish I could get you with Meredith. I wish I could connect you, you know, with X, Y, or Z woman from the past couple of years.    And so, I thought, I also simultaneously was listening to a lot of podcasts because I was super lonely. Just because, you know, moving into a new culture, and then my husband was gone at least 50% of the time for training or deployment. And so, I'd be walking along the military installation listening to like sermon audio, like John Piper or Timothy Keller or whatever. And I thought, man, I wish that there was a conversational podcast about theology for women that would just be more warm and kind of like what we're doing right now. And my husband was like, "Well, you should start it." And so, I just started with the women who had mentored me. If you go back to the very beginning of the podcast, it's truly like my college roommates. It's my mentors from Pine Cove Christian Camps where Brooks and I met.    And I think I just by God's grace, the podcasting network was so, small at the time. I remember Journey Women landed in the number two spot right behind Joel Osteen whenever the thing launched. And so, then from there, it just gave the podcast some notoriety, which is what then allowed, you know, some of the names that you would recognize to reach out and to say, "Hey, you know, could we come on the podcast?" And at the time, I had no knowledge of, you know, how to market people marketing books or any of that Bible studies, etc. And yeah, it was a really fun season, actually, because it was pre-COVID. And you know, people weren't used to doing a whole lot online. And so, had some really, really fun conversations. And along the way, the Lord has helped me to hone in more of a vision of what I'm doing. Because at first, it was just like, let's get in the closet and have like fun, intentional conversations that I could share with my girlfriends or with maybe the military spouse that I'm meeting on the playground that I may never see again, you know.    And then along the way, people started even wanting to donate to the podcast and different things like that. And I thought, I really need to have a clearer aim. And so, now, you know, over the past eight years, the Lord has given us this mission to help women know and love God through his word, to find their hope in the gospel and to invest deeply in their local churches as they go out on mission for the glory of God. And some of that came and Laura, I'm sure you face this from women really seeking out discipling online, and us realizing we can't disciple you. Like, we cannot come alongside you and help you to grow in godliness, you know, but we can do that via the interwebs. But the degree to which we're able to do that is super-duper limited. And so, what does it look like for us then to equip women so, that then they would be encouraged to seek out fellowship in the local church, and to be investing their time, energy and talents in the local church. And so, that's become kind of our resounding gong at Journey Women over the years, just because we really do believe that ministry happens best in the context of the local church. And that's something that the Lord has validated through seeing women reaching out online and realizing like, hey, we could never, you know, provide what they need. But God in his grace has given us the local body that is able to do that.    Laura Dugger: (15:42 - 19:08) So, well said, because this is a great place that we can meet people anytime what is most convenient for them with a podcast. But then also, so, that's great for sowing seeds. But there's nothing that replaces that embodied relationship. And it just makes me think of God that he created us that way. And he knew it because Jesus even being embodied, little baby sent to earth, so, nothing replaces that. And, Hunter, I just I love hearing about your public ministry and the way the Lord has blessed and grown it.    And now a brief message from our sponsor. With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser Team is a RE/MAX agent of Central Illinois, and she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors. For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831. And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer. When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home. And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process. This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team. The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market, but Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell. She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process, and she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she's thought of everything. And Sue's continued generosity was astonishing. I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home, and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Miss Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home.    So, whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time, or looking to upgrade or downsize, or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years, Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress free, and that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made. So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com. And that is sueneihouser.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.   I'd also love to hear a little bit more about your personal life. So, what does a day in the life look like for Hunter Beless?    Hunter Beless: (19:09 - 21:25) Well, I think if somebody joined me in a day in a life, in this season, Laura, I feel like I'm too busy. I have committed to too much. And so, what it looks like practically, it's going to be a lot of time running from this or that event and just trying to do the things that I committed to before or some of the other things that the Lord has allowed in my life came to fruition. But just leaning into him for the grace that I need moment by moment, you know, and trusting that he is the same and that he has provided all of the grace that I need. His grace is sufficient for me, you know, as I'm running errands and facing the temptation to feel anxious or overwhelmed that, you know, I think it's Luke 12, where it's talking about how I can't even add a moment, not even the smallest amount of time to my life by worrying. So, I'm just going to entrust all of this to the Lord.    So, for me, I wonder how many women are listening to this and that they can relate to this because I talked to various people who they don't have a podcast, but they don't have the same work as me, but they feel that same temptation towards anxiety and the feelings of overwhelms that we all face, you know, and yeah, I think my life probably looks a lot like many of y'all's. And for me, it's just the constant meditation on scripture and just rehearsing the truths of God's word that are never changing, even in the midst of my ever-changing and chaotic circumstances. So, it doesn't seem to change even if I do a better job, which I could have done, planning my schedule or, you know, prayerfully considering the commitments that I made, but just resting and knowing that he is unchanging and that he is ever-present and that he is all-knowing and that he has provided everything that I need and his son.    So, that is what it looks like. Every day looks different, but again, leaning into the truths of God's word, meditating on those truths, rehearsing those truths over and over, and resting in the grace that the gospel provides. That's the thing that never changes.    Laura Dugger: (21:27 - 22:06) And I love that overview because if we look from the outside, you're homeschooling, you run this ministry, you have a podcast, and you're cooking healthy recipes for your family, but I'm sure do you also have weekly patterns? Because to me, it's a stewardship issue. You've been faithful with little, it sounds like, so, he has given you the opportunity to be faithful in much, and it's a season of much where you've written books and produced all this content. So, do you have a system in place or rhythms throughout the week that have helped you live that full, abundant life?    Hunter Beless: (22:06 - 24:19) Yeah, that's a really good question. Obviously, the weekly rhythm that we always start with is worshiping with the saints on Sunday. I look forward to that like no other. And we are in a church that the Lord is just so, gracious to have provided a pastor who prioritizes the preaching of the word and who is consistently proclaiming the gospel from the pulpit. And so, Laura, on the weeks where I feel like I have been so, busy that I have not spent the time in God's word that I would desire, just the recognition that going to church on a Sunday is such a blessing to get to receive God's word. And so, there have been many times that I just show up and I'm just like, "Thank you, Lord." Thank you for the provision of your word. Thank you for the provision of the body of Christ. And so, Sundays are just like a non-negotiable for us. We go to church on Sundays. And then, you know, we have various things. My kids are actually homeschooled on two days out of the week or three days out of the week. And then, they go to school two days. So, we do like a university model is what it's called. And so, on the three days that they are home, I am full tilt homeschooling, doing everything home-related.    And in fact, I have had to learn that part of their education is also helping care for our home. And so, we really see it as a team effort to keep the home, like, tidy and running and functioning well, so that we can, you know, spend as much time in it as we do, like, with happy hearts. And then, on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I typically am in this closet working while the children are at school. Saturdays, we rest together as a family. We spend a lot of time outdoors. I also make bread regularly. And I think there's something liturgical for me about making bread. And, like, when everything else feels, like, a little bit chaotic and out of my control, the beauty of just doing a simple task like making bread to provide food for my family and nourishment is something that really brings me great joy. So, Saturdays are also bread-making days. And then, the week begins again. That is awesome.    Laura Dugger: (24:19 - 24:41) I love hearing that. And it makes me curious to go even a little bit further. I'll give you a few categories, but I'd love to hear what rhythms in these categories have been most profitable to you. So, when you think of it spiritually, physically, relationally, and just productively, how you stay creatively fresh.    Hunter Beless: (24:41 - 28:24) Yeah. You know, spiritually for me, and I'm a mother of, like, young children, right? So, my kids are ranging from age 11 to age 3. I would say we're still in a season in which sleep is a little bit unpredictable, particularly in those early waking hours. But I do my very best to try and get in God's Word first. And that is not because I want to check it off the list, but because I need the people in my home and beyond. So, really trying to just orient myself rightly to the truths of God's Word first thing is huge. I also do try to work out. So, that gets to the physical piece. I neglected working out for many years. I actually, hilariously, was a personal trainer when we were back in the military. And that was kind of my gig while Brooks was gone. And so, I know how to work out, and I enjoy working out. But with the children, it has been a difficult thing for me to prioritize. But just this last year, I got, this is the most, like, basic thing ever. I got a Peloton. I bought it secondhand off of Marketplace. And it has just been a wonderful way for me to sweat and exercise my body first thing in the morning without, you know, really requiring a whole lot. I don't have to leave the house. I don't have to go outside or anything, because Brooks does travel quite a bit still for work. And so, I try to ride the Peloton. Doesn't always happen. Happens less than it does, than I want for it to, but it does help.    And then, yeah, relationally is really, that's a really good question. I think one thing that the Lord has blessed me with, having lived a season of extreme transiency, right? So, we did eight years of military. And then, we did two years at, you know, university where Brooks got his MBA. And now, we're in our first, like, what we would call, like, a civilian kind of location, where he's got his first civilian job. We're almost 15 years deep into marriage now. And so, all of the friendships that I made along those eight years of moving almost annually. I think we moved, like, six or seven times in eight years. Yeah, just trying to maintain those relationships. I only have one or two from each duty station, but I love using Voxer or Voice Memo to keep in touch with people who have known me for, you know, a longer time. And that's just one thing that's really fun. I have to be careful not to let that overtake my time on my phone, but I do love to keep in touch with old friends. And they are some of the friends that the Lord has used just really to help me navigate the various challenges that we face, right, in life and relationally in marriage and all of that.    So, anyways, and relationally in marriage, Brooks and I were really just relishing in the friendship that God has given us with one another. I don't think it's been easy over the years, especially with all of the transiency and all of the deployments and all of the many moves that we've faced. But God has really just given us a true appreciation for one another. And to begin to see now, 15 years into marriage, that the differences that He has given each of us are a gift to help us be conformed into the image of His Son. So, that's some of it, spiritually, physically, relationally. Did I miss anything?    Laura Dugger: (28:25 - 28:32) Just even productively as you're creating content, how do you stay creatively inspired and fresh?    Hunter Beless: (28:33 - 30:55) Yeah, I love, my friend Gretchen Stoffels has a lot of wonderful things to say about this. She talks a lot about producing from the overflow and not the undertow. And that's ministered to me over the years. I find a lot of times when I am not creatively fresh, it's either because I'm overproducing or because I'm not honestly spending, most of what I do is all revolving around God's Word. So, it's like if I'm not spending time in God's Word and allowing myself to just be struck anew with truths from the text, then what do I have to share? So, that helps me too in knowing when am I overcommitted? Because if I don't have time then to be relishing in God's Word, not for the sake of producing something, but just like you said, just being struck and wonder by who God is, then I really need to reevaluate the commitments that I'm making and slow things down a bit. And so, that's kind of what has helped me to protect that time with the Lord so that then I would have something to offer others.    And I don't just think about it in terms of producing a podcast or writing a book or sending out a newsletter. I mean, honestly, even with the children, this has been something that I've been thinking about for the last six to eight months. If I want them to understand how God's Word informs all of life, then I need to be with my face in my Bible because who is it that they spend the most time with, right? All throughout their life. Like, it's me. And so, I get to then help them realize like, oh, here is how Scripture applies to all these different circumstances. But if I don't spend time in God's Word, then I've got nothing to give. And I have a friend who was a missionary actually in a remote country with the IMB. And I asked her, I said, "How did you ever evangelize with people in this remote context from this different religion and all of this?" And she said, "You know what, I just had to be so, filled up with God's Word that that's what came out." And I think about that all the time. So, when I'm feeling dry, I'm like, "Oop, oop, that's a good sign. I need to go back to God's Word."    Laura Dugger: (30:56 - 31:07) I love that. And let's go there then in your own home. How have you intentionally helped your children to know and to love God through Scripture?    Hunter Beless: (31:09 - 33:52) This is going to sound really selfish, but, you know, this whole endeavor, right, I've realized the significance of God's Word in my own life. And so, I'm constantly thinking, Laura, like, how am I going to get into God's Word? You know, like, that's, it sounds selfish. But if I really believe that I need God's Word for all of life, I'm going to have to figure out how am I going to get that in. And then it's wonderful because I get to bring the children along in that. So, maybe that's just like a fresh take on it, right? Because we're always thinking as mothers, like, how can we be investing in our children more heavily in all of these things? And I think those are good and right desires. Obviously, Deuteronomy speaks to that. You know, we're supposed to teach our children diligently the ways of the Lord. But I think it's just so refreshing when we come to the text as learners, as co-learners. And so, for me, I'm just always thinking, like, how can we learn together who God's Word is? How can we worship the Lord together in our home?    And then it helps me see those times, right, when you are offering instruction to the children, when you are being intentional about, you know, for us, we do, like, catechesis, for example, which is a series of questions and answers just to help disseminate doctrinal truths and help the children learn, like, here are, you know, foundational doctrine of the Christian faith. Then I'm not just like, "Okay, who is God? You know, God is the Spirit." I'm, like, thinking about the things that we're learning in a way where I also am seeking to learn as well. And I think that just gives a posture of humility, too. Like, as a parent, where it's not like, "You gotta learn your Bible verse this week, kid." You know, it's like, "We get to, we get to, look, we get to learn God's Word together, you know?" And then that helps them understand the joy of learning God's Word. And it also gives them a very real picture of a parent who's being transformed by the truths of God's Word. What better witness is there? And so, really, I've stopped seeing it as, "Hey, here's our time," you know, which we do have.    And practically, for us, a lot of that happens around the table because I've realized that, like, when children are well-fed, when they have something to do with their hands, they may be a little bit more prone to, like, have open ears, ready to hear, you know, instruction. But we do have those rhythms kind of in place, but I don't want it to be relegated to those rhythms. I want it to be all of life. I want us to understand it doesn't just mean we're gonna sit here over breakfast and do our Bible reading for the day. This is something that is really going with us through the day because we need it not just for this moment, but for all of life.    Laura Dugger: (33:53 - 35:38) You draw so much wisdom there, and I think especially that it's not an either-or, having that set-aside rhythm and time, or just hoping it'll be incorporated into all of life. But it's both.   I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Henrichsen from Episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product, so, I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so, that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. You will also be able to access our donation button, or our mailing address, for sending checks that are tax-deductible, so, that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com today.   Even going back to the heart of this conversation of discipleship, Hunter, how do you think the local church, and especially older women in the community, can play a vital role in encouraging young people to love Scripture?    Hunter Beless: (35:40 - 39:34) You know, I love this question, and I just, I cannot overemphasize the value of older women who love God's Word in the church enough. You know, I think in the culture, we're hearing and seeing that, you know, it's not good to grow old. I mean, that's being perpetuated by all of the Instagram ads that we receive, and by seeing shiny faces that look like they haven't aged one bit. And I'm like, "No, God's Word says that women, older women in particular, have tremendous value in the family of God." And so, I think I want older women just to realize, like, we need you. And in fact, no one is exempt. No woman is exempt from the Titus 2 mandate to teach the younger women what is good. And how do we know what's good? Well, we know God alone is good. And because God is good, we know His Word is good. And if you don't have any clue, like how to reach back and invest in the next generation, I have great news for you. All you need is God's Word.    So, I mean, the littlest learners, the children in the community, I think they are the most gracious recipients of anybody in our community, you know, just when it comes to God's Word. And so, look for ways that you can encourage the younger people in your sphere of influence, in your local church, with God's Word. And often I think that just starts with maybe even meditating on one verse. You know, it can be that simple. Or for me, one way that I want to encourage, you know, the children in my life with God's Word is by identifying ways that I see God working in their lives and naming it. I mean, how encouraging would that be if an older saint in the church said, "Hey, you know, I don't know, my oldest daughter's name is Hadley. Hey, Hadley, like, I see God working in you. You are showing kindness, you know, to the other children in the church. Thank you so much for that. And I'm just praising God for the work he's doing in your life," you know.    But I think in order for them to do that, right, they have to be willing to be inconvenienced by being around the children. And we just had a sermon on this, a wonderful sermon from the book of Mark about Jesus saying, "Let the little children come to me." And so, I think just realizing that Jesus himself, right, he was unbothered. He delighted in the presence of children. So, I think in our older age, you know, especially after you have young kids and you've done all of your time, you know, investing in the next generation in that way, just realizing that there is value in serving in kids' ministry or children's ministry in the church and just getting around the children to be able to give yourself the opportunity to know them in a way where you can meet them with the truths of God's Word. It could also be just having younger families in your home. And I know that can be such an inconvenience. I mean, we're a hot mess. We are so chaotic. And I know, you know, you even have to consider the breakables. Like, you got to protect those, you know, when we come into the house. But figure out, like, what does hospitality look like where we can welcome in younger children, the families with younger children in the home, seek to encourage the parents. I mean, truly, Laura, what else are we doing here? Like, we have been given two things. We have been given the mission of evangelizing and discipling. And that message is the same.    At the heart of both of those things is the gospel. The gospel is for salvation and for sanctification. And so, if you're an older person in the church, keep meditating on the gospel. Keep, you know, seeking to disseminate the truths of the gospel to everybody around you. And remember, the littlest of these, I think, are the most eager learners. And it's such a great opportunity.    Laura Dugger: (39:36 - 39:52) Goodness, I love that. And as you say, disseminate these truths of the gospel for both salvation and sanctification. Can you even share clearly what is that gospel that applies to everyone?    Hunter Beless: (39:53 - 43:58) Oh, yes. I mean, this is the good news that I continually am rehearsing over and over and over again. I think for me, you know, I realized as a young child that the gospel was for salvation, right? That I love the Titus 3. You know, I just wrote this Bible study on Titus with Courtney Docter. If you don't have, like, a great comprehensive kind of gospel text that you've got in your back pocket, I think Titus 3:3-7 is a wonderful text to commit to memory. It says, "So, we are sinners." Romans 3:23. You know, we were created by God to glorify him. And yet, we have chosen to glorify ourselves. Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." So, we too were once foolish. I think it's easy to see that when you really think about your life. You know, like, even me testifying to my life in high school. We too were once foolish. There's no getting around that. But we too, let me see, where am I now? "But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us," "not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy," So, how does he save us? Well, he sent his son, Jesus. When did the kindness of God our Savior appear? Well, it appeared over 2,000 years ago. In a stable in Bethlehem. When, like you said, God sent his son to live a perfect life. And then he gave his life on the cross so, that we might have right relationship with God. He saved us. Not by works of righteousness, but according to his mercy, "By the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."    So, when, and by the way, he rose from the grave. Let's see, is that in here? I don't know. But let's see. That one's not in this particular gospel text of Titus 3:3-7. But we know that from the gospels, right? That Jesus Christ died on the cross. And that he rose again three days later. Overcoming death. So, that we too might not have to experience eternal death. We get to experience eternal life. When we turn from our sin and trust in him. And that's when that washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit happens. We're filled with the spirit. He's poured out his spirit on us. Verses 6 and 7 says, "whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." And so, I think part of what it looks like for us to live with that hope of eternal life. Is to constantly be reflecting upon who we were apart from Christ. Who we are in Christ. And who we will be when we one day see Christ again. Face to face. And so, that for me is what it looks like. Just to relish in the gospel. To remember the gospel.    Even when I was talking earlier, Laura, about feeling overwhelmed. The temptation for me then is to feel down on myself. And to wrestle with shame. Because I've over committed, right? But I'm rehearsing the truths of the gospel to myself in that moment. And saying, "Okay. Yes, could I have planned my schedule better? Yes, could I have done all these things? But you know what? I, by God's grace, get instead to rest in the grace that the gospel provides for me in this moment. Knowing that with all these various responsibilities, I am not going to be executing them perfectly. But he has perfectly accomplished my salvation on the cross. And so, I can rest in his son. Knowing that my salvation is not based on my perfect performance. But on the performance of Christ." And that then again helps me then to relish in the gospel. To remember the gospel, like I said, is not just for that moment of salvation or justification. When we're saved from our sins and made right with God. But it's also for every moment of every day. Because we need it all the time. At least I do.    Laura Dugger: (44:00 - 44:20) Yes, absolutely. And I think we can hear that or repeat that so, often. But I love how you unpack it. Because especially for those who have been saved. When they rely on the gospel for sanctification. Can you give any more examples of what that looks like? Specifically for sanctification after the salvation?    Hunter Beless: (44:21 - 46:35) Yeah. I think it's just coming to a greater understanding of our desperate need for Jesus. And then as we rely on him more wholly. I think we're conformed even more into the image of his son. Just after that gospel hymn in Titus 3. Verse 8 says, "The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works." So, what is sanctification? Well, sanctification is growing in godliness. Or said another way, it's growing in good works. Right? So, we're not saved because of our good works. We're saved by the gospel so, that then we can produce good works. By God's grace. That's the sanctification process. And so, how does that happen? Well, verse 8 tells us, "The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things." What does it want us to insist on? It wants us to insist then on the contents of the gospel from Titus 3:3-7. So, we need to, in order to grow in our ability to do good to others. What do we do? We insist on the gospel.    And how does that work? Well, when I am feeling, again, overbooked, overwhelmed. And somebody comes into my life that needs service. If I'm functioning by the world's wisdom, what am I going to say? "You know what? I just don't have the margin for that. I can't do that. I need to protect my time." But if I'm looking at the gospel, what do I see? Well, I see what Christ died for me. Was that act of service self-protective in any way? No. So, what does it look like for me then to lay down my life for the good of another? And that's how the gospel then informs our living in such a way that we begin to grow by God's grace, not by our own effort, in godliness. So, I think that's how the sanctification process kind of works itself out.    Laura Dugger: (46:35 - 46:54) Thank you so much for sharing that. And you've taught us already so, much in this time together. But you've also written a book recently for children. Can you tell us a little bit more about it and share the lasting truths that you want to impart to children who get to read or listen to your book?    Hunter Beless: (46:55 - 49:47) Yeah. I think it started for me with really thinking about what are those kinds of scriptural, biblical truths that I want to offer to the children in these everyday moments like we've been talking about. My son, I already shared, he's been struggling with sleep for the last year or so,. And he'll come tumbling down the stairs in the middle of the night. And my initial reaction to that is to want to say, "It's okay. Mommy's here." Right? And that's true. And I do think that offers some temporal comfort. And it is a good thing for a mother to be present in the time of a child's need. But thinking more deeply, I began to say, "Buddy, God is with you. You have no need to fear." And the reason for that is because I started thinking about, well, what if mommy wasn't here? What if I wasn't able to be here? And some of that came just from having lost my own father in the last few years to cancer spontaneously. And just thinking, like, what are the lasting truths that I then want to impart to my children when I'm no longer able to be present? So, it is true. It's comfort that mommy is here in your time of need. But also, even when mommy's not able to be here, remember, God is with you always.  And it's been such an encouragement for me then to even see him, like, on the playground and his little buddy will get hurt. And he'll turn and he'll tell his buddy, like, "It's okay. God's with you." You know what I'm thinking? "That's so, good. Like, this is the kind of stuff that I want to be just ingrained within the children so, that their initial reaction is, 'It's okay. God is with me.'" Similarly, the message that is repeated throughout the book is, "Jesus Loves You More". And that was really instigated from one of my children requesting for me to say over and over again this popular phrase that we've all heard, "I love you to the moon and back." And I started thinking, like, "Okay, that's true. I do. I love you to the moon and back. I love you to the, you know, mountaintop and to the ocean floor. I love you as far as the east is from the west. But there is one who loves you even more than I ever could. And in fact, when my love fails you, His never will." And so, I wanted to get that.    If there's one message that I want my kids to know, it's that. It's that Jesus loves them so, much that he went all the way to the cross at Calvary and gave his very life so, that they could be made right with God. So, that's the message that I hope kids will take away from the book. I do hope that it inspires parents to think about what are those lasting truths that they want to impart to their kids. And I hope it equips them then to be able to share what I believe as Christian parents is the most important message we could ever give.    Laura Dugger: (49:48 - 49:54) I just want to acknowledge too, I'm so, sorry for the sudden loss of your father in recent years.    Hunter Beless: (49:55 - 50:19) Well, thank you. Yeah, it's, you know, my kids were just saying as we were hiking this last weekend, they're like, "We miss puppy." But we're like, I'm at a point now where I did go through many years of grief, missing him, you know, all of this. But just relishing in the fact that he's in the presence of the Lord Jesus. And I am just so grateful because he's in a much better place. So, I'm looking forward to the day that I get to join him there. Amen.    Laura Dugger: (50:20 - 50:28) Well, Hunter, you've already given us so much, but where can we go to continue being discipled by you after this conversation?    Hunter Beless: (50:30 - 51:14) Well, if you like conversations like this, you know, I infrequently show up at Journey Women. We used to do a weekly show and then it turned to bi-weekly and now we're seasonal. But I do love having conversations just like this. And I hope that, you know, just as our conversation today, I hope it encourages women just to get together, like you said, with women in their local context to open up God's word. And just to go deeper, relationally, conversationally, to come together around the truths of God's word. You've asked such great questions, Laura. And I think take some of these questions and ask your friends and see where the Lord guides those conversations. I think that'll just be such a blessing. It's been a blessing to meet and chat with you today.    Laura Dugger: (51:15 - 51:32) Well, I've loved every minute. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight or discernment. And so, as my final question for you today, Hunter, what is your Savvy Sauce?    Hunter Beless: (51:34 - 52:28) Oh, you try to nail me down to something practical. It's funny, Laura, because I feel like I resist practical. And I'm not sure what it is about me that resists practical other than maybe sometimes I felt like bound in by people's practical advice. Does that make sense? And so, for me, here's my practical advice. My practical advice is to allow all of your practices or your practicals to be informed by the principles of the text. So, allow the principles of scripture to inform your practice. And that's not very practical, but I think the only practical way you can do that is to get your face in your Bible and to really seek to know and love God through his word. And then he will certainly help inform your practice.    Laura Dugger: (52:30 - 56:34) I think that's actually more practical than you realize. That is wonderful. And Hunter, your joy and your laugh are just contagious. And you're clearly gifted from the Lord as a clear, articulate communicator. And it blesses so, many people in so many generations because you are able to filter in the truth and then communicate it in a way that's able to be received. So, it's been so encouraging to sit under your teaching and be inspired to take this out and to hopefully begin in our home. But also, those good works, as we're called as older women, too. None of us are exempt, as you said. So, I've just thoroughly enjoyed being with you. Thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much for having me. It's been so fun.   One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

The Jupiter String Quartet, a pet supply sale, the Lucky Dog 5K, and of course, live music. 

On this week's episode of Out and About, Dr. Mae Gilliland of ArtsParnters talks with Dan Dietrich, trombonist with the Prairie Wind Ensemble, about their upcoming concert on March 19 at Five Points Washington. Founded in 1977, the ensemble brings together professional and hobbyist musicians from across Central Illinois to perform everything from classic marches to modern medleys. Dan shares why you don't want to miss this free concert full of energy!

Since Monday, we've seen a LOT of rain in central Illinois, but is it enough to end the drought? The state climatologist tells us why we have a long way to go.

A screening of an Oscar-nominated film, opening nights of two plays, a tournament for a Quidditch-inspired sport, a cat show,and, of course, live music.

On this week's episode of Out and About, Dr. Mae Gilliland of ArtsPartners of Central Illinois talks with Chip Joyce, marketing and outreach coordinator for the Brimfield Public Library District, about the library's Local Author Fair. It takes place Saturday, March 21.

We spoke with an archivist for an oral history project and a longtime member of Danville's Jewish community.

1 Timothy 4:8 NIV “For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.”   *Transcription Below*   Brian Smith, author of The Christian Athlete: Glorifying God in Sports, is a staff member with Athletes in Action and a cross-country coach at Lowell High School. A former collegiate runner at Wake Forest University, he earned a BA in Communications and Journalism before completing his MA in Theology and Sports Studies at Baylor University's Truett Theological Seminary. Brian lives in Lowell, MI with his wife and three children. You can find him on Twitter @BrianSmithAIA.   Ed Uszynski is an author, speaker, and sports minister with over three decades' experience discipling college and professional athletes. With a heart for reconciliation and justice, he also works as a racial literacy consultant and marriage conference speaker, blending Biblical wisdom with practical living in the midst of complex cultural realities. He has two theological degrees from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and a PhD in American Culture Studies from Bowling Green State University. He and his wife Amy have four children and live in Xenia, Ohio.   The Christian Athlete Website   Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka   Questions and Topics We Cover: What is one of kids' greatest game day complaints?  Is it true that young athletic success is a predictor of adult athletic success? What are a few tips for instilling a heart of gratitude in our young athlete, rather than entitlement?   Related Savvy Sauce Episode: 230 Intentional Parenting in All The Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:51) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.   Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at lemangm.com.   Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski are my guests for today.   They are co-authors of this recent amazing book entitled, A Way Game, A Christian Parents Guide to Navigating Youth Sports. And from the very beginning, I was captivated, even with one of the endorsements from Matt Martens, who's the president and CEO of Awana, and he summed it up this way, A Way Game provides a much needed perspective shift on one of the most sacred idols in our culture, youth sports. So, Brian and Ed are all for youth sports, and yet you're going to hear there's a different way to approach it than what we've been trained in culture.   And they're going to share some wonderful and very practical insights. I can't wait to share this with you. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Ed and Brian.   Ed Uszynski & Brian Smith: (1:51 - 1:54) Thanks for having us, Laura. Yeah, good to be here, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (1:54 - 2:04) So, excited about this chat. And will the two of you just start us off by sharing your family's stage of life and your involvement in sports?   Brian Smith: (2:05 - 3:29) Yeah, there could be a lot on the back end of that question. I'll start with sports, then get into family. I've been involved in sports my entire life, played every sport imaginable growing up, got cut from just about every single sport my freshman year of high school, ended up running track and cross country because it was the only sports that you could not get cut from at my high school.   And I ended up being pretty good at it by the time I was a senior, won some state championships, ended up getting a scholarship to run at Wake Forest University. So, I did that for four years right out of college. I coached a little bit collegiately.   Soon after that, I joined staff with a sports ministry called Athletes in Action that Ed and I have a combined 50 years with Athletes in Action. And really, that's been my life ever since. I've been ministering to college and pro athletes, discipling them, helping them figure out what does that actually look like to integrate faith in sport.   Even today, I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I coach high school cross country while I'm still on staff with Athletes in Action. I have a middle school Bible study that I run on Wednesday mornings.   Been married to my wife, who I actually met in high school. She was a distance runner too, and she ran at Wisconsin. So, we've been married for 20 years.   We have three kids, a high schooler, a middle schooler, and an elementary schooler who are all involved in sport at some level, some way, shape, or form.   Laura Dugger: (3:30 - 3:34) Wow, that's incredible. Thank you, Brian. And Ed, what about you?   Ed Uszynski: (3:34 - 5:04) Well, my story is very parallel to Brian's, just different sports and some different numbers. Just tack on 15 years. Yeah, I was a basketball player.   Grew up on the west side of Cleveland with a high school football coach. My dad was, but I was a basketball player. I played at high levels all the way through my 20s, got to play overseas.   I mean, this was a long time ago, but I got everything I could out of that sport. And as soon as I graduated from college, though, I started to work with that Athletes in Action ministry that Brian mentioned. So, I've been working with college and professional athletes for 34 years now.   And same, coached at different levels, have four kids. Amy and I have been married for 26 years. We have four kids, three are in college, and one's in ninth grade, who has a game this afternoon, actually.   So, we've just been going to games and have been involved in going to sports stuff for the last 20 years with our kids. And really what happened with Brian, and I is that we looked up a decade ago and realized this youth sports thing was a fast train that was moving in directions that we weren't used to ourselves, even though we've been around sports our whole life. It's like, there's something different happening now.   And then thinking about it as Christians, like, how do we do this well as Christ followers? We don't want to separate from it. We don't want to just go for the ride. How do we do this as Christian people? And that's what got us talking about it and eventually led to this book.   Laura Dugger: (5:05 - 5:23) Well, the book was easy to read and incredible. And I'd like to start there where you begin, even where you go back before going forward. So, when you're looking back, what are the factors at play that changed youth sports over time?   Ed Uszynski: (5:26 - 6:17) Well, I'll say this and then Brian, maybe you jump in and throw a couple of them out there. I mean, youth sports is a $40 billion industry today, which is wild to think about. It's four times how much money gets spent on the NFL, which is just staggering.   I can't even hardly believe that that's true, but it is. And it's really just in the last 20 years that that's happened. I mean, 50 years ago, you couldn't have had the youth sport industrial complex, as we refer to it.   You couldn't have had it. There were a bunch of things that had to happen culturally, as is true with any new movement or any paradigm shift that happens in culture. You've got to have certain things be true all at the same time that make it possible.   So, Brian, what were a couple of those? Again, I'll throw it over to you. There's six of them that we talk about in the book. And I think it's really fascinating because I'm a history guy.   Brian Smith: (6:18 - 8:40) Yeah. And we can obviously double click on any of these, Laura, that you want to, but we talk about how the college admissions process became an avenue where youth sports parents saw, man, if we can get our kids involved in some extracurriculars and kind of tag on high level athlete to their resume, it actually helps with the college admissions process. And so even the idea of college scholarships became an opportunity for youth sports parents to get their kids involved.   And then, yeah, maybe sports can actually get them into college. We talk about the economic shifts that happen, the rise of safetyism and helicopter parenting. ESPN was a massive one in 1979.   This thing called ESPN starts, and we get 24-7 coverage of sports, which they started exploring even early on. What does it look like to give coverage to something like Little League World Series and saw that it didn't really matter how young the sport was, it's going to draw a national audience. And so, we've almost been discipled by ESPN really over the last 50 years with this consistent coverage.   We talk about the rise of the sports complex. This one to me is like the most fascinating out of all of them. In 1997, Disney decided to try to get more people to come to their parks.   They built a sports complex, just a massive sports complex. The idea was, are the older kids getting sick of the Buzz Lightyear ride and the Disney princesses? So, let's build a sports complex and maybe it'll be something else that will draw this older crowd too.   And what happened was, I mean, a lot of people started coming to it, but kind of the stake in the ground game changer was when 9-11 hit. In the months and years after that, they saw a lot less people go to their parks, but population actually doubled going to the sports complex, which is wild to think that people were afraid to go to theme parks for a vacation, but they were willing to travel across state lines to play sports at the Disney complex. So other cities and municipalities took notice of that.   Today, there's over 30,000 sports complexes like Disney's, which again, this is all adding to the system of the youth sports industrial complex. Did I miss any, Ed?   Ed Uszynski: (8:41 - 10:47) Well, no, and that's good. And the reason why we even put all that on the table, again, everybody kind of intuitively knows if you're involved, you know, something's not right. But I think it's important to say this is not normal what's happening.   It's a new normal that's been manufactured by a bunch of cultural trends, by a bunch of entrepreneurs that are doing what entrepreneurs do, and they're taking advantage of the moment, and they are generating lots of money around it. So, it should be encouraging. If it's not normal, that means actually there's a counter way of going about this.   There really can be reformation. But when all this money gets involved, the two biggest consequences that come out of that is our kids start getting treated like commodities, which they are, and we could talk the whole time even just about what that means. But maybe even more importantly, or what comes out of that is that beyond their physical development, most coaches and clubs are not paying any attention to their emotional development, their psychological development, their spiritual development, all the different aspects of what it means to be human that, frankly, used to be paid quite a bit more attention to in youth leagues when I was growing up.   I'm 58 now, so I was playing in the 70s and the 80s. And it used to be expected, at least at some level, even among non-Christian people, that you would take those aspects of a kid's life seriously. And now those just aren't prioritized.   And so, what do we do about that? Again, that's kind of our whole point is, well, as Christian people, we're really supposed to be our kid's first discipler anyways. And part of that role and part of taking on that identity is that we would be asking, what is God trying to do in the wholeness of their life, the entirety of their life, even in the context of sports?   So again, I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but that's why we're trying to poke into that to say, oh, we could actually make change. We may not change the whole system. In fact, we won't. Most of us won't be expected to do that, but we can make significant change in our corner of the bleachers and what happens with our kids.   Laura Dugger: (10:48 - 11:05) That's good. And just like you said, to double-click on a few places, first of all, real quick, the 30,000 number, I remember that shocking me in the book, but I'm forgetting now, is that worldwide, the amount of sports complexes or is that just in America?   Brian Smith: (11:05 - 11:06) That's domestically in the US.   Laura Dugger: (11:07 - 11:52) Yeah. That is staggering. And then one other piece, all of this history was new to me as you brought it all together, but it was also fascinated.   This is from page 32. I'll just read your quote. The American youth sports ball began rolling when a British movement fusing spiritual development with physical activity made its way across the Atlantic Ocean at the turn of the last century.   And Ed, that's kind of what you were touching on, that they were mixing, I'm sure, spiritual, psychological discipleship, physical. Can you elaborate more on what was happening and where it originated? Because we've come very far from our origins.   Ed Uszynski: (11:53 - 13:18) Yeah. And there's been a bunch of really great books written about this topic called muscular Christianity. This idea, like you just said, Laura, of wedding physical activity through sports with our spiritual development and expecting and anticipating that somebody that was taking care of their body and that was engaging in sport activity, that was the closest thing to godliness.   That opened up the door for you to also be developing spiritually. And there was an expectation that both of those are going on at the same time. A bunch of criticism about that movement, but it was taken seriously.   The YMCA is actually a huge byproduct of the muscular Christianity movement. The Young Men's Christian Association created space for sports and for athletic activity to take place under the banner of you're also going to grow spiritually as you're doing this. So again, that was a hundred years ago.   And that's not really what AAU stands for today. The different clubs and leagues that we get involved in just don't talk that way anymore. Of course, culture just in general has shifted away from sort of a Judeo-Christian ethic guiding a North Star for us.   Even if we're not Christian people, that used to be more of a North Star. That's gone now. And so, it really is not expected in sports anymore.   Brian Smith: (13:18 - 13:55) And what we're saying is we cannot expect organizations to own that process for our kids. We can't outsource the discipleship of our kids to the youth sports industrial complex or the YMCA or the AAU. It really does start with us as Christian parents to be the primary discipler of our kids.   And there is a way to take what's happening on the field or the court or the pool and turn it into really amazing discipleship opportunities. But it means, and Ed is starting to tease this out, it means we need to change our perspective as parents when we sit in the bleachers or on the sidelines of what we're looking for and even the conversations we have with our kids on the back end.   Laura Dugger: (13:57 - 15:29) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.   If you visit their dealership today though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle.   This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.   I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business.   Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them on 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Laura Dugger: (15:30 - 15:31) And I want to continue getting into more of those practicals. Do you want to give us just a taste or an example or story of what that might look like?   Brian Smith: (15:32 - 16:54) We keep saying, we keep talking about the importance of the car ride home that it's tempting for us and not us broadly in the U.S., tempting for us, Ed and I, as people who have done this for 50 plus years and who should know better, it's tempting for us as discipled by an ESPN over analyzing everything culture and want to talk about sports to get in the car ride home with our kids and all we want to talk about is how game went, what they did right, what they did wrong, what they could fix next time.   Maybe instead of passing to Tim, they should take the shot next time because they're wide open. They just hit three in a row. So, and what our kids need from us in those moments is less coaching, less criticizing, less critiquing, and they just need us to connect with them.   The stats on kids quitting youth sports is crazy right now. Its 70 percent are quitting before the age of 13, in large part because it's not fun, and a lot of kids are attaching this idea of it not being fun to the car ride home with their parents who, let's say this too, most of us are well-intentioned parents. We're not trying to screw our kids up.   We want what's best for our kids, but the data and the research and the lived experience continues to tell us what our kids need from us is just to take a deep breath, connect with them, less coaching. Ed keeps saying less coaching, more slurpees.   Laura Dugger: (16:55 - 17:07) I like that. And that ties in. Is it called the peak-end principle that you discovered why kids are resisting that critique on the way home?   Brian Smith: (17:07 - 18:17) Yeah, absolutely. The peak-end rule in psychology is known as this: we, just as humans in general, not just kids, we largely remember things in our lives based on the peak moment of that event, but also how the event ends. And so, the peak moment in sport can be anything from something that goes really well, like they scored a goal or made a basket or something that did not go well, just like a massive event that took place that they're going to remember.   But then it's also married to how that event ends. So, if you think for kids, how does every youth sport experience end? It ends with the car ride home.   So, if they're experiencing the car ride home as I did not live up to mom and dad's standards, or there's fear getting into the car because they don't know what their parents are going to say, how are they remembering the totality of their youth sport experience? It is, I didn't, I didn't measure up. I wasn't enough.   It felt like sports was a place that I needed to perform for my parents or my coach. And I always feel a little bit short. We want to help parents see like there's a different path forward that can be more joyful for you, but hopefully more joyful for your kid as well.   Ed Uszynski: (18:17 - 21:37) Well, and, and I'll just, let me keep going with that, Brian. I thought you really articulated all that so well. I can just imagine a parent maybe thinking, was there never a time to correct?   Is there never a time to give input? And we would say, well, of course there, there is, they need far less of it from us than we think they need when it comes to their sport. And again, we can talk about that.   They need far less of that from us. They need us to be their parents, not to be their coaches. Even if we are their coach, they need us to be more their parents.   But there is a time to do it. We're just saying the car ride home is the worst time to do it. And that's usually the time that most of us, you know, we've got two hours of stuff to download with them.   And that's just, it's not a good time. But the other thing that Brian and I keep talking about is how about, what if we had some different metrics that we were even trying to measure? So, most of the time our metrics have to do with their performance.   Like what, what are we grading them on? Again, depending on what the sport is, there's these different things that we're looking for to say, how you did today is based on whether you did this or you didn't do that and whatnot. And we're saying as parents, and again, starting with us, we needed some other metrics that were actually more concerned about what was going on in their soul.   So again, I'm sure we'll talk more about this, but the virtues, how did love show up in the way they competed today? Where that usually is tied to them noticing somebody else. Do I, am I even asking them any questions about that?   Are they experiencing peace in the midst of all this chaos and anxiety that shows up at every game? How do we teach them to experience peace? How do they become other-centered instead of just self-centered all the time in a culture, a sport culture that's teaching them to always be the center of attention and try to be?   So, we just have needed to exchange some of what we had on that performance list, like tamper that down a little bit and maybe expand the list of categories that we're looking for that actually will matter when they're 25. And we keep saying this, our goal is that they'd come home for Thanksgiving when they're 25. And so, we need to stay relationally connected to them and how we act on the car ride home day after day after day after day, year after year is doing something to our relationship.   But we also are recognizing that it's really not going to matter whether Trey finishes with his left hand at the game today when he's 25, it's not going to matter. It's not going to matter probably a year from now, but how he goes through the handshake line after the game and the way he addresses other people, and whether or not he's learning to submit to authority, whether or not he's learning to embrace other people's humanity. Yes, even in the context of sports, that's really going to matter when he's 25.   It's going to matter when he's married. Those are the things that will matter. And we say that as people who are older and have been involved in ministry and have worked with college athletes and see what happens in their lives even after they're finished, and they have no idea who they are anymore.   And this thing that's dominated their life has not actually prepared them well to do life. And that's a problem that we say, let's start changing that when they're six and not hope they're figuring it out when they're 22.   Laura Dugger: (21:38 - 22:11) I love that because that's such a theme throughout those virtues that you talked about, but discipleship and sports are a tool or a way that we can disciple our kids. I also love that you give various questions throughout the book and even quick phrases. So to close that conversation on the car ride home, if we say, okay, that's what I've been coaching the whole way home, what is a question we could ask our child afterwards and a statement we could say and leave it at that and do it a better way?   Brian Smith: (22:12 - 23:56) The question I have consistently asked my kids after learning that I've been doing this the wrong way for a long time, I tweet my question to they get in the car and I say, is there anything that happened today from the game that you want to talk about? And it's frustrating to me because 99% of the time they say, no, can we listen to the radio? And we listen to the radio, or they play a on my phone, but I'm respecting their desire that they're done with what just happened and they're ready to move on to the next thing, even though I really want to talk about what just happened.   And then the statement that I want to make sure that I'm consistently saying that they're hearing is I love you and I'm proud of you. So, game didn't go well. Yeah, you did play well today.   That's okay. Hey, I love you and I'm proud of you. Game went well today.   Awesome. Great job. Hey, I love you and I'm proud of you.   So I want that to be the consistent theme that they're hearing for me, which is hopefully going to help them better understand the gospel later in life, that as they get older and older, hopefully they'll begin to realize it seemed like the way that my mom and dad interacted with me when I was performing in sport, but their love was not attached to my performance. That seems really similar to what I'm learning more and more that Jesus does for me, that I'm trying to do all these things that are good. But from what I'm understanding about the gospel, it seems like Jesus loves me in spite of what I do.   He loves me just because He's connected to me, that God loves me because I'm a son or daughter, not because I'm performing as a son or a daughter. So, in a very real way, I really am hoping that I'm giving a good teaser for my kids now for when they fully experience the gospel as they go through the life.   Ed Uszynski: (23:56 - 24:47) Another really good connecting question. I love how you said all that, Brian, is if they don't want to talk about the game, is it okay, did you have fun today? And they can only go in one of two directions.   No. Well, tell me about that. Why not?   And it opens up the door to talk about, well, because I didn't get to play or because something bad happened. And again, tell me more about that. Tell me more about that.   Or they say, yes, great. What happened that was fun? And it creates a very different conversation in the car.   And it opens up, again, relational possibilities that go way beyond, why do you keep passing it when you should be shooting it? Wow. And just all the different ways that that comes out of us, depending on sport, depending on their age.   But those are great questions. Go ahead, Brian.   Brian Smith: (24:47 - 25:41) I just asked my son this morning. He's a freshman. His wrestling season is almost done.   And I just asked, like, what has been most fun for you in wrestling this year? And his first thing was, I feel like I'm learning a lot. And that's really fun for me, which he's on a really good team.   He's had a lot of success. He's made a lot of good friends. But even that gave me a window into his characters.   My son enjoys and I knew this is true about him. But my son enjoys learning, which means he enjoys the process of getting better and better and better, which can happen in school, it can happen doing stuff in the yard, it can it can also happen in sport. But for me to remember moving forward, yeah, he he's probably going to have a different metric for what's fun in sport than I often do for him.   Yeah, like I wanted to learn. I want him to win though, too. He's happy with learning right now.   So, I need to be happy with that for him.   Ed Uszynski: (25:41 - 26:34) If I can say this, too, again, I don't want to be vulnerable on your behalf. But then knowing this, he's lost a lot this year to really good kids. Yeah.   And so much of the learning has been in the context of losing. So, you as a dad, actually, you could be crushing him because of those losses and what he needs to do to fix that and what he needs to do so that that doesn't happen again. And it's like he's already committed to learning.   How do you just how do you celebrate the loss? Like he took the risk to try something new in this movie. He tried to survive an extra period.   That's a process when and it's we just need to get better at that. Like you genuinely can celebrate that. That's not just a that's not like a participation trophy.   It's acknowledging now, do you're taking you're taking the right steps that are actually making you a winner, even if you don't have more points at the end of the game right now.   Laura Dugger: (26:34 - 26:54) Yeah. Yeah. And that long term win that you're talking about, even with character and you've talked about fun and asking them about fun.   Is it true that that's the main reason kids are dropping out of sports at such a rapid rate before age 13 is that it's just not fun anymore?   Ed Uszynski: (26:55 - 28:58) Yeah. Yeah. And why is it not fun?   And again, this is where Brian and I are always getting in each other's business. And we know that this conversation gets in all of our business as adults. But why is it not fun?   It's not fun because of the coaches and it's not fun because of the parents. We are creating stress. We are creating again collectively because we're all in different places on the on the spectrum on this in terms of what we're actually doing when we show up at games.   But if you even just go to any soccer game and you be quiet and just listen to what's happening and everybody's shouting and screaming things and there's contradictory messages being sent and there's angst at every turn and there's an incredible celebration because this eight year old was able to get the ball to go across the line for another goal. And what that's doing inside the kids is it is creating a not fun atmosphere. Let's just say it like that.   That's a not fun atmosphere when you're eight, when you're 10, when you're trying to figure out how to make your body work. You're trying to learn the game that you're unfamiliar with and you're trying to do what this coach is telling you to do. And you're also trying to do what all the parents are telling you what to do.   And if it's a team sport, you're trying to interact and play with other kids who are all in that same state of disarray, which is very stressful and frustrating. And we're just adding to it. So instead of removing it, instead of playing a role that says, we're going to keep diffusing that stress.   And again, I'll speak for myself. Too often, I have been the one that's actually adding to it. And so, kids are just like, why would I do this?   Why would I want to get in that car again with you? It's not fun. This is a game.   And so, there's a million other things that I can do with my time where I don't have everybody yelling at me and I don't have to listen to you correct me for two hours.   Laura Dugger: (29:00 - 29:21) Well, and one other thing that surprised me, maybe why kids are dropping out, you share on page 47, a quote that research reveals a strange correlation. The more we spend, the less our kids actually enjoy their sport. So, did you have any more insight into that?   Brian Smith: (29:21 - 30:50) Yeah, this was a real study that was done at Utah State. Researchers found that the more money parents are spending, again, let's say well-intentioned parents, the more we're spending in sports, the less our kids are enjoying. And the more they have dug into it, they're finding, and intuitively it makes sense.   If you buy your kid a $600 baseball bat, what's the expectation that they're supposed to do with this really expensive bat? When they swing, they better hit the ball, and they better get on base. If we're going to buy you this expensive of a bat, you can't just have process goals with it.   You better swing and hit it. And that's causing stress for kids. If you travel across state lines and you go to Disney to play at their sports complex, you're not there for vacation.   You're there to perform. So even if parents are saying we're trying to have fun, kids know when you're traveling and you're getting all this good equipment and you're on the elite team and you're receiving the best of the best stuff, they know it comes with some sort of an expectation. College athletes can barely handle that type of pressure and expectations, but we've placed this professional on youth sports from fifth five-year-olds to 15-year-olds, and it's just crushing them.   It's crushing them. Again, college athletes and professional athletes can barely handle it. They need mental health coaches for sports, but we're expecting that our five-year-olds can handle it, and they can't.   Ed Uszynski: (30:51 - 31:19) And they may not even be able to articulate it. So that's the other thing. They may not be able to identify what's actually going on inside and put it into words.   So again, that's why we're trying to sound the alarm for ourselves and for others who are listening, because we can do it different. Again, just to even keep spinning it back in an encouraging direction, we can do this different. We can change this this week in our corner of the bleachers.   We can start over again.   Laura Dugger: (31:21 - 31:48) Absolutely and make a difference. And before we talk about even more of the pros with sports, I think it's also necessary to reflect and maybe even grieve a few things. So, what would you say are some things families are missing out on when they choose youth sports to overfill their calendar, that that's all that they make time for?   What do you think they're missing out on?   Brian Smith: (31:51 - 33:16) Yeah, I think a couple that come to mind are family dinners are a big one. That's big for us in the Smith house, is just having the ability after a long day to sit at the dinner table together, to eat food together, and to process the day and be with one another. But when my kids' practice goes late, it means we're either eating almost towards bedtime or we're eating in different shifts.   And so that's something that we grieve. I think for me, when my schedule is full, I'm tempted to adopt the mindset that what's happening on the wrestling mat or on the track matters more than it actually does. And it robs me of the ability to just take a deep breath and smile and enjoy watching my kids play sports.   That without an intervention or a pregame devotional in the car for myself, I risk sitting in the stands or being on the sidelines, being stressed out and putting pressure on myself and pressure on my kids and gossiping about why the coach didn't put this kid into the people next to me, instead of just enjoying the gift that is sports and watching my kid try and succeed and try and fail. That is a gift available to me as a dad to watch my kid do that. But the busyness often robs me of that perspective.   Ed Uszynski: (33:17 - 36:06) Well, and the busyness robs, again, if you're married, that busyness eventually wears away at your relationship. And it's not just sports. I mean, busyness, we can fill our schedule, overfill our schedules with any number of things.   We can overfill our schedules with church stuff to a point where it becomes detrimental to our relationship. If we don't set boundaries so that we're making sure we're doing what we need to do to be face-to-face and to be going to areas beneath the surface with each other in our relationship and being able to do that with our kids as well, eventually there's negative consequences to that. It may not happen right away, but I've definitely experienced that.   We've experienced that in our home where it's easy to maybe chase one kid around for a while, but what happens when you add three into the mix and you haven't really done a time budget or paid attention to the fact that when we sign up for all these things, you get a month into it and you realize, oh, we have to be in different places at the same time. So, we're not even watching stuff together anymore. We're just running.   I can endure anything for a season, but what youth sports wants now in every sport from the youngest ages is that it becomes a year-round commitment. So, you're not even signing up to play a season anymore. You're signing up for a year in most cases because after the games, then they're going to have training.   They're going to have this other thing going on. And so again, can we say, well, we'll play the actual season, but then we're not going to do the additional training over these next three months. Again, we want to give parents' permission that you can say no to that.   Well, we paid for it. Well, it's okay. If you want your kid to be on that team and you like this club or whatever, then you pay the money and you just say, we're going to sit those three months out and we're going to use those three months actually to have people over our house for dinner.   Again, whatever's on the list, Laura, that you said about being more holistic and not letting sport operate like an idol in our life where it's taken on, it's washed out everything else in our life. We can get back in control of that by just saying no a little bit. You can go to church on Sunday.   Even if there's tournament games going on on Sunday, you can go to the coach early and say, hey, we just, in our family, we just don't want to be available before 12. Are you okay with that? And most of the time coaches will be.   The kid might have to sit extra maybe for not being, whatever. Okay. That's not going to be the end of the world that they had to sit out an extra game or had to sit out a half because they weren't available on Sunday morning.   It might actually make a huge difference that they weren't at church for two and a half years in the most formative time of their life.   Laura Dugger: (36:07 - 37:36) And a lot of times the way of wisdom includes reflection, getting alone with the Lord and asking, have we overstuffed our schedule this conversation today? Let's talk specifically with youth sports. Is that trumping everything else?   Because what if we're putting it in a place it was never intended to be as an idol where we sacrifice hospitality or discipleship or community or even just a more biblical way of life? I think we have to bring wisdom into the conversation for what you've mentioned. Whether it's worth it, if they're even enjoying it, how much we're spending on it, and do we have the budget to allocate our finances that way and evaluating the time just to see and make sure that it's rightly ordered.   Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights? Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy!   But if we flip that to if youth sports are rightly ordered, then what are some things that we can celebrate or reasons that you would want families to give this a try?   Brian Smith: (37:37 - 40:09) The massive positive that we keep coming back to is we have a front row seat to see our kids go through every possible emotion in sport, the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And then if we have the right perspective, we are armed with awesome opportunities and awesome information that we're seeing. We get to see what our kids are really good at.   We get to see their character gaps. And then we get to be the ones who, again, who are their primary response, primary disciplers. It really goes back to like, are we trusting youth sports for too little in our kids' lives?   Like many of us are trusting that our investment is going to get them a spot on a team, or maybe they get an opportunity in high school, maybe in college. And what we're saying is, yeah, that maybe. And that's not a bad end goal.   But if that's everything that you're investing into youth sports, it's not enough. Like what you have available to you every single day is to ask your kid if they showed somebody else's dignity on the field. You don't know if your kid's going to hit a home run today.   That may not be available to them their entire life. What's available to them every single day is to ask a question to their teammate, to see somebody and show dignity to them. And that's really, it's like, it's almost the opportunity of a lifetime for us as parents who, when our kids get home from school, we really don't know what happened most of the day.   We asked them how it went and we get the one-word answer. In sports, we don't have to guess. We get to see everything that happens.   And again, if we are actually trusting youth sports for discipleship investment, that's a good ROI. That's a good return on our investment. But we need a consistent intervention almost daily to say, no, this is why they're in sports.   Yes, I want to see them get better. I want to see them have fun, but Holy Spirit, would you help me see things today that I normally don't see? Holy Spirit, would you put them in circumstances and relationships today and in the season that's going to help them look more and more like Jesus by the time the season's done?   Holy Spirit, would you convict me in the moment when I am being a little too mouthy and saying things that I shouldn't? Would you help me to repent? And God, in those moments where I'm actually doing wrong on behalf of my kid, would you help me to humble myself and apologize to them?   And God, would you repair our relationship that way? So again, all of these options are available just because our kid's shooting a ball or they're on the field with somebody else tackling other people. We're trusting youth sports for too little.   Ed Uszynski: (40:10 - 41:10) That's all big boy and big girl stuff. It just is. I don't normally naturally do any of that.   I have to be coached into that. I have to be discipled myself. I have to work through my own issues, my own baggage, my own fears about the future, my own idolatrous holding onto this imagined future that I have for my kid, irrespective of what God may or may not want.   I've got my own resentment. I've got my own regrets from the past. I wish things had gone differently for me, so I'm going to make sure they go different for you when it comes to sports.   And it's hard to look in the mirror and admit that I have anger issues. I mean, youth sports create a great opportunity for me to get up all my pent-up frustration from the day. We've given ourselves permission to do that, in most cases, to just yell and yell at refs and gripe about coaches and yell at kids.   Brian Smith: (41:10 - 41:31) Because that's what we do at the TV, right? When our favorite team is playing, we've conditioned ourselves to say, awful call, that was terrible. Then we get on social media and we complain about it.   We are discipling ourselves to this is how it's normative to respond within the context of sports. Then we carry all that baggage to our six-year-old soccer game.   Laura Dugger: (41:33 - 42:02) Well, I love how you keep pointing it back toward character and discipleship. You clearly state throughout the book, sports don't develop character, people do. But could you maybe elaborate on that a little bit more and share more now that we've listed pros and cons, you still list a completely different way that we can meaningfully participate while also pushing back?   Brian Smith: (42:04 - 43:49) I'll start with the first part, and then you can answer the second. We use the handshake line as a great example of why character needs to be taught to our kids. If you just watch a normal handshake line left without coaching, the kids are going through it, especially the ones who lose with their head down, they have limp hands, there's no eye contact, and they're mumbling good game, good game.   Sometimes they don't even say it, they'll say GG stands for good game. They don't just learn character by going through the handshake line. If anything, that's going through it like that without any sort of intervention or coaching, that's malforming their character.   That's teaching them when things don't go well, that it's okay for them not to be a big boy or a big girl and look somebody in the eye and congratulate them. What needs to happen? An adult needs to step in and say, hey, as we go through the handshake line, whether you win or lose, here's how we do it with class.   We shake somebody's hand, we look them in the eye, and we say good game. Even if in those moments we don't actually mean it, we still show them dignity and honor. And then when we're done going through the handshake line, guess what we're going to do?   We're going to run down the refs who are trying to get in their car and get out of here, and we're going to give them a high five and say, thank you so much for reffing today. That stuff needs to be taught. Our kids don't just come out of the womb knowing how to do that.   We have to teach them how to do it. Sometimes good coaches will do that, but the more and more we get sucked up into the sports industrial complex, we're getting well-intentioned coaches, but we're getting coaches who care more about the big W, the win, than the character formation stuff that happens.   Ed Uszynski: (43:49 - 45:27) They need to keep hearing it over and over again. I have a ninth grade Bible study in my house the other day with athletes and a whole bunch of my son's basketball team. Exactly what Brian just said, I actually was like, wow, I've got them here.   There was a big blow up at a game the other day, and we wound up talking about it. I said, I'm going to take this opportunity actually to say what Brian just said. When you go through a handshake line, this is how you go through it.   I watched what happened in the game a couple days later. Basically, they did the exact opposite of what I told them to do, and they lost. It was just what Brian said.   They went through limp handed. They didn't look anybody in the face, and they weren't even saying anything. I just chuckled to myself, and you know how this is as a parent.   They may or may not do it. Of course, those aren't my kids. I have more stewardship over my child, who actually, he is doing what I've asked him to do because I've re-emphasized it across time now.   It's not a failure because they didn't do what I said. Again, the pouty side of me wants to be like, forget it. I'm just not even going to try anymore.   It's like, no, they're kids. That was the first time they've heard that. They're going to do what their patterns have, the muscle memory that's been created by their patterns, just like we do as adults.   The next time I have a chance to bring that up again, I'm not going to shame them. I'm just going to go over it again with them. Here's how we do it.   It's super hard to do this, guys, when you just want to be violent with people or you want to cry. You got to pull yourself together. That's what big men do.   That's what big women do in life. They pull themselves together in those moments and do the right thing.   Brian Smith: (45:28 - 46:01) You don't know whether the fifth time you say it is going to stick or the 50th time. Your responsibility as the Christ-following parent is to do it the sixth time and the seventh time and the seventh time and trust that God is going to take those moments and do what he does. We're ultimately not responsible for our kids' behavior.   We're responsible for pointing them in the right direction, and then hopefully, yeah, the Holy Spirit steps in and transforms and changes and convicts in those moments, but it might take some time.   Ed Uszynski: (46:02 - 47:47) Tom Bilyeu So that's how you push back, Laura. You were asking that. How do we push back without being just completely involved in it or going for the same ride that everybody else is going for?   There's just little moments like that scattered throughout. Literally, every day that my kids are involved in youth sports, the car ride over, what happens on the way home, how we talk about it, what happens during the game and what we wind up talking about out of that, the side conversations that happen that just get brought up apart from games of how we interact with people and so-and-so looks like they're struggling. What do you know about that?   That's how we push back, that in our corner of the bleachers, oh, how we interact with other parents. We haven't even talked about that yet, that I can take an interest in more than just my own kid in the bleachers and spend way more energy actually in cheering for other kids and just trying to give them confidence and spend way less time trying to direct that at my own child who knows that I'm there. In fact, my side kid has said he doesn't want to hear my voice during the game.   It distracts him. He's like, I'd much rather that you cheer for other people. It's like, okay.   Having questions ready for other parents during timeouts and as you sit there for hours together, what do you talk about? Well, I could be the one that actually initiates substantive conversations over time with them and asks them about what's going on in different parts of their life. And in having done that, people want to talk.   They want a safe place actually to share what's going on in their So let me be the sports minister. Let me take on that identity and actually care about other people.   Laura Dugger: (47:49 - 49:47) I love that. Even that practical idea of just coming to each game, maybe with a different question, ready to open up those conversations. And I'll share a quick story as well.   Our two oldest daughters recently just gave cheerleading a try at a local Christian school that allows homeschool kids to participate. And this is an overt way that somebody chooses the different way. So, it's the coach of the basketball team.   His name is Cole. And at the end of every game, we saw him consistently throughout this season when it was a home game, whether their team won or lost, he would ask them, okay, shut off the scoreboard. It's all blank.   He gathers both teams. As soon as the game is over teams, cheerleaders, the stands stay filled with all the parents. And he says, this is not our identity.   The world and Satan, our enemy, who's very real. He wants us to put our identity here, but it's not here. You made us better tonight by the way that you played and you were able to shine Jesus.   And we're going to go a step further and we're going to do what we call attaways. So, he's like, all right, boys, you open it up. And his team is trained.   They say to the other team, Hey, number 23, what's your name? I loved how you pushed me so much harder tonight and says, my name's Ben. And so, their Attaway is, Hey, Ben.   And everybody goes, Hey, Ben. Yeah, Ben. Yeah, Ben Attaway.   And everybody just erupts in clapping. And the other team is always blown away and they are just grinning, whether they just lost. So, the boys go through that for a while and then they open it up to the other team and they start sharing Attaways.   And then they open it up to the crowd and the parents are able to say, I see the way you modeled Jesus by being selfless with the ball or whatever it is. So, Cole said that his college coach did that many years ago and he's passed that on. And I love that's one way to redeem the game.   Ed Uszynski: (49:47 - 51:39) Wow. Beautiful. Beautiful.   Yeah. That's amazing. And, you know, I, so Brian and I talk about this too.   And I coached at a Christian school. So, we, we think that it's really important if you're going to play sports and you're going to be a Christian coach that you actually take the game seriously. And that we actually are here to compete and we are here to try to win.   There's nothing wrong with that. And we're going to pursue excellence when we show up with our bodies, and we train for this sport and we're going to try to win. Cause I think sometimes we end up kind of going all or nothing, especially within our Christian circles.   We're uncomfortable with that. And it's like, yes, do that. And on the backside of that to do what that coach did is amazing.   It's that, that is, that is exactly what we're saying. We're also going to try to form our souls in the midst of this. We're going to try to win on the scoreboard.   Okay. The game's over, we lost, we won, whatever. There's more going on here than just that. And can we access that together? And again, that's so rare. Probably everybody listening has never even heard of anything like what you just said.   It would be amazing if a bunch of people did, but that's what we're saying. Let's do more of that. Let's find ways to have more of those conversations in our sphere of influence.   Maybe we're not the coach, but we can do that in our car. We can do that when we're at dinners with the other, with other players and other team, you know, we, we can do that. We can take that kind of initiative.   If we have those categories in our mind, instead of just being frustrated that my kid didn't get to play as much tonight. And I'm that bugs me. It's like, okay, it can bug you.   And now I gotta, I gotta be a big boy and get more out of this than just being frustrated that he or she didn't get to play as much. It's hard.   Laura Dugger: (51:40 - 52:11) Absolutely. Well, and like you guys are doing having Bible studies outside of the, the team that you can instill values in that way and share scripture that they're memorizing to go out there with excellence for the Lord. So, I love all of that.   And I've got just a few quick questions, just kind of for perspective. I want to draw out something from the book. Is it true that young athletic success predicts adult athletic success?   Brian Smith: (52:13 - 53:51) It is not true. This is, this is not a hot take. This is researched back more and more research they're doing on this.   And they're finding that there's not a direct correlation between a young elite athlete and them continuing that up into the right trajectory and being an elite athlete later in life in large part, because when puberty hits, like everything is a game changer. So, this is, I found this fascinating and this is probably going to be new to you too. This just came out today.   At the time we're doing this podcast, the winter Olympics is going on in Norway. It's just like, they're killing it. Nor Norway's youth sports system.   This is wild. They give participation trophies for all the kids. They don't keep score until 13 years old.   They don't do any national travel competitions, no posting youth sports results online. So, there's no online presence of youth sport results. And their country motto is joy of sport for all.   And they're, they're killing it right now in the Olympics. So, like, that's not to say, like you got to follow their model and then you're going to win all these gold medals, but it is, there is something to just let the kids have fun. And the longer they play sport, because it's fun, the better opportunity you're actually going to have to see them blossom and develop some of these God-given gifts that they might have.   Don't expect it to come out before they're 13. Even if it does, there's no guarantee that it's going to continue on until they're 23. Just let them have fun.   Ed Uszynski: (53:52 - 55:55) Brian, we, Brian and I got to speak at a church the other day about this topic. And there was a couple that came up afterwards and they asked the question of what, so when do you think we should let our kids play organized sports or structured sports? And so again, Brian and I are careful.   Like I, there's no, there's no one size fits all answer to that. We would suggest as late as possible, wait as long as possible. Because once you start doing structured sport where there's a coach and you have to be at practices and the games are structured and there's reps, it just cuts away all the possibility they have to just play and just to go up to the YMCA and just play for three hours at whatever it is that they like to do.   And they said, well, it's encouraging to hear that they said, because we, we actually are way more into just developing their bodies physically. And so, we do dance with them, and we do rock climbing and they were kind of outdoorsy people, and they just started listing off all these things they do because we want them to become strong in their bodies, and learn to love activity like that. And I just thought, again, that's, that probably would cause a lot of people to freak out to hear that, that they have eight, nine-year-olds that aren't on teams yet.   They're just, they're training their bodies to appreciate physicality and to become coordinated and to, you know, to get better at movement. And it's like, what sport is that not going to be super helpful in five years from now, even when they're 12, 13 years old. And now they really do want to play one sport, and they do want to be on a team.   They're going to be way ahead of the kids actually that just sat on benches or stood in the outfield, you know, day after day after day at practices. Again, that's maybe hard to hear, but maybe there's some adjustments that need to be made again; to give ourselves permission to say, we don't have to get on that train right now. You don't have to, your kid's not going to be behind.   They actually could be ahead. If you do the kinds of things we just talked about.   Laura Dugger: (55:56 - 56:11) I love that. And even that example with what it looks like played out with Norway and also, do you have any other quick tips just for instilling and cultivating a heart of gratitude and youth sports rather than entitlement?   Brian Smith: (56:13 - 57:33) I'm a high school cross country and track coach, and I have kids on my team who want to get faster at running, but instead of running, they want to lift weights and they want to do plier metrics. So, there's, yes, there's a spot for that. But the way you get better at running is to run.   You got to run more miles and more miles. And I think gratitude is similar. That gratitude, part of it is a, it's a feeling, but it's also a muscle that we can flex even if we don't feel it.   And so, I would encourage parents who are trying to instill gratitude into their kids to give them practical things like, hey, after practice, just go shake your coach's hand or give them a fist bump and tell them, thanks for practice today, coach. That that's a disciplined way to practice gratitude that will hopefully build the muscle where they're, they're using it later in life. After a game, I taught my kids this when they were young and they still do it today.   Go shake a ref's hand. I mentioned this earlier, just a really, really practical way to show thankfulness and gratitude to somebody who really doesn't get a whole lot of gratitude pointed at them during a game or after a game. If anything, they have people chasing them through the parking lot for other reasons.   I want my kids to be chasing them down to give them a fist bump or a high five. And so, gratitude is something that we can just practice practically. And hopefully the discipline practice will lead to a delight and actually doing it.   Ed Uszynski: (57:34 - 59:39) And how do we cultivate an inner posture? Cause I tend to be a cup half empty type person. I'm a, I'm a whiner by nature and a continuous improvement.   There's always something wrong. And I'm, it's easy for me to find those things just as a person. I'm not even saying that as a dad or a coach or anything.   And it's been super helpful to me in the last decade, even to just like, I can choose to shift that. There, there is, there's a list of things that are broke, but there is always a list of things that are good. There's always something good here to be found.   And even as I've tried to like, again, tip the scales more in that direction, I can keep pushing that out of my kids. So, so this, you know, my ninth-grade son tends to just like, he doesn't like a whole bunch of what's going on in basketball right now. So, I keep asking him if he's having fun.   He says, no, like, why not? Or like, who did, why did you not have fun today? So, it's just the same thing every day.   I'm like, okay, who did you enjoy even being with today? Nobody. And I'm like, dude, I don't believe that actually.   I just, I don't believe that. There was somebody that you had some moment with today that you enjoyed, or you wouldn't want to keep going back up there because, and he does. So, give me a name.   Okay. Lenny. What happened with Lenny that was fun? And I make him name it. Like I'm, I'm, I'm trying to coach him through it. And sure enough, he does have some sentences of what was fun today.   And it's like, good, let's, let's at least hold onto that in the midst of all the other stuff that's not right. Let's choose to see the thing that was good and that you enjoyed and that we could be thankful for. Not everybody got to have that today.   Again, I have to have my, I have to be the parent. I have to be the discipler. I have to be in, you know, in charge of my own soul that wants to be negative all the time and say, nope, we're going to, we're going to choose gratitude today because the Bible tells us to do that.   There's something about that posture that opens the door for the gospel to be expressed through us. So, let's practice.   Laura Dugger: (59:40 - 59:50) Well said, and there's so much we could continue learning from both of you. Where can we go after this chat to learn more from each one of you?   Brian Smith: (59:52 - 1:00:14) Yeah, we do a lot of our writing online at thechristianathlete.com. And so, if you go there, you can see articles that are specifically written for parents, for coaches, for athletes, all around this idea of what does it look like to integrate faith and sport together? So, the

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The Hip Hop Convene, Romeo and Juliet, featuring IPM's very own Morning Edition host, A Night at the Art Museum, A Black History Gala and of course...live music.

*Disclaimer* This episode contains adult content and is not recommended for young listeners.   284. DON'T MISS THIS! Controversial Sex Questions, Answered with Dr. Juli Slattery   1 Samuel 24:19b NIV “May the Lord reward you well for the way you treated me today.”   *Transcription Below*   Bio: Instagram Facebook Authentic Intimacy Website Java with Juli Podcast   Thank you to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company   Questions and Topics We Cover: As Christ followers, should we use a friend's preferred names and pronouns? If one part of Scripture talks about turning the other cheek, is that the same as saying God expects you to stay in an abusive marriage? Is it reasonable to assume that once they have a smartphone, 100% of kids will be exposed to pornography?   Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce, Including Past Episodes with Dr. Juli Slattery: Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen  Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau  Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau Healthy Sexuality, Emotional Intelligence, and Parenting Children with Autism with Counselor, Lauren Dack Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel Bridging the Gap Between Military and Civilian Families with Licensed Professional Counselor, Cuthor, Podcaster, and 2015 Military Spouse of the Year, Corie Weathers Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma Enjoying Parenting and Managing Conversations About Sex with Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two) Personal Development and Sexual Wholeness with Dr. Sibylle Georgianna  Our Brain's Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1 Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2 Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas Sex Series: God's Design and Warnings for Sex: An Interview with Mike Novotny Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler Sex Series Orgasmic Potential, Pleasure, and Friendship: An Interview with Bonny Burns  Sex Series: Sex Series: Healthy Self, Healthy Sex: An Interview with Gaye Christmus Sex Series: Higher Sexual Desire Wife: An Interview with J Parker Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo 215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen 216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen 217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler 218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma 222 Pornography: Protecting Children and Personal Healing, Victory, and Recovery in Christ with Sam Black Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen 224 Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn 252 Maximizing Sexual Connections as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Cliff & Joyce Penner 260 Sex After Cancer with Dr. Kris Christiansen 277 Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:11 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 – 2:21) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.   Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.   My returning guest for today is Dr. Juli Slattery.   She has authored another book entitled Surrendered Sexuality: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything, and we're going to cover a few themes from this book, but I think what you're going to find most helpful are her candid responses to some really tricky questions related to dating and pornography, technology, thought life, shows that we watch as believers, divorce, and just intimacy in general as married couples.   So, I think this is an episode that you're going to want to learn from yourself, but you'll also want to share with others because Dr. Juli has offered us such a gift as she directs us back to the heart issues and wisely guides us into sexual integrity in our own lives.   Here's our chat.   Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Juli.   Dr. Juli Slattery: (2:21 – 2:21) Thanks so much for having me back. It's always a joy.   Laura Dugger: (2:21 – 2:22) Well, I love that you've been a repeat guest many times. So, we get to just dive right in today because I'm going to link all of your previous episodes in the show notes. But to dive in, I'm just curious, as believers, where does your heart break as you see us compromising on God's design for sex?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (2:22 – 3:31) Hmm. That's such a good question. You know, I think my heart breaks the most in that when we compromise God's design for sexuality, or even when we don't understand it or understand His goodness, it means that there is a breach in our relationship with God.   And so, I am so passionate about what I do, not necessarily because I love talking about sexuality, but because for a lot of people, sexuality represents a wall between them and God, like an issue they can't resolve, or a place of shame that they just can't quite shake free from, or battle with sin that they feel like they're enslaved to. And so, those things mean that there's a limit to how much they invite God into their lives.   And so, for me, that's where my heart breaks the most is, you know, ultimately, we were created for the greatest fellowship with God and anything that gets in the way of that is something that God cares about and something that I care about.   Laura Dugger: (3:32 – 4:03) You say that well, and you've written many books, but in this most recent one, you plainly state one issue when you write, “You will not be able to obey God with your sexual thoughts, while binging shows and music that continually display the exact opposite.”   And I love how practical that is. So, Juli, why do you think this has become so normalized? And I would say, especially in Christian marriages.   Dr. Juli Slattery: (4:05 – 5:58) Yeah, you know, I think a lot of it is that the church has been historically really quiet about sexuality, you know, like we might talk about save sex for marriage, and don't cheat on your husband and that sort of thing. But the gray areas about how we think about our sexuality and kind of what we have the liberty and freedom to engage in, there's kind of silence, or maybe there's legalism.   And I think in that space, what ends up happening is the culture is so forthright with a message about sexuality, like woven throughout every single show that you could stream on any platform, you know, your music on Spotify, even the news you consume, the Instagram feeds, whatever, it's consistently showing you a way to understand sexuality that is contrary to God's design, and the messaging can be so subtle, or so repetitive that we don't even realize we're ingesting it.   And so, it's normal to talk about with your friends, like the latest season of The Bachelor, or, you know, the latest thing that you're streaming that if you really look at it, there's probably 100 references to sexuality that are outside of God's design. And so, we end up just having our mind conformed to this world.   And the scripture says really clearly in Romans 12, that we can't offer ourselves to God while we're still thinking like the world thinks that it requires an act of transformation of our thinking. And I don't know that there's anywhere more than we need this than in the topic of understanding our sexuality.   Laura Dugger: (6:00 – 6:59) Okay, so for I'm thinking of married couples, because I was recently at a wedding shower. And I love a friend from church. Her name is Dawn Karius. And she was giving the devotional and just sharing. You know, it's very easy to get married and fall into this trap. She was talking about what you watch specifically.   And she said, so many couples will watch something together, watch a show before bed, but be really intentional. If that is what you choose to do, then the shows that you're watching, even though you're with your spouse, is that drawing both of you closer to Christ? Because if it's pulling you further away from Christ, it's also pulling you away from one another.   And so, with all of that, and with what you've studied and written about, if a couple's hearing that and or some single person just hearing this, what would be your practical advice or encouragement for them?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (7:00 – 9:29) Yeah, some of it is, we can't live in a bubble. You know, it's, I think that there are some couples will have the conviction that, you know, we're just going to get rid of all of our devices, we're going to get rid of every streaming service. And there's nothing wrong with that decision, you might feel convicted to do that.   But for most couples, I would say, they're like, okay, we live in this world, we need to understand even the world we live in. And so, it's not like we're going to completely be cut off. But are we being discerning about what we consume?   And what are the standards that we might hit where we might just say, “You know what, we don't need to be watching this.” You know, like I can think of one show in particularly that my husband and I were watching. And it was a well-written show. It was exciting. But there was just so much profanity and just gross kind of sexual content that after two or three episodes, we're both just like, “You know what, as good as the show is, we just, this isn't, we're not watching this. Like we need to stop.”   And I think you need to have those discussions and you might have a different level of conviction than your spouse does. And that's okay, but at least have those conversations and you need to follow your conviction.   But then the other thing I would say that is equally important, if not more important, what are you consuming that helps you get God's perspective of sexuality? And what I've found is that a whole lot of Christian married couples know very little about what it looks like to build a healthy sex life in their marriage. And they're not consuming anything that helps them know how to love each other better, how to overcome differences, even how their bodies work, how to focus on one another and enjoy sex in a holy erotic way.   And so, even if you're watching and consuming very little content from the world, but you're not actively pursuing anything that gives you a biblical perspective, you're still going to end up defaulting to what the world says. And so, I think that again, it's equally as important or not, if not more important to be pursuing what's true and what's right and what's good.   Laura Dugger: (9:31 – 9:53) I love that, how you flipped it. And that discernment piece is huge because we don't want to be desensitized to then that we're consuming and we also want to feed on the good. So, I think it even leads to a broader question, again, as Christ followers, how can we recognize if our conscience is being pricked?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (9:54 – 12:05) Yeah, we can start by asking the Lord. You know, I mean, I think it's in, is it Psalm 139, where, you know, David is basically saying, “Search me, oh God, and know my thoughts, you know, show me if there's any offensive way within me.”   I think that's a beautiful prayer as an individual and as a couple, like God, we want to honor you with what we consume in media, with what we think about, would you guide us and would you show us? And then I think we all have that experience of watching something or listening to something or reading something where we're like, “Uh, I don't know, like, this is sort of a gray area. Like, I'm uncomfortable here. I probably shouldn't be watching this.” Or “Wow, that's really, that's really in your face. Like that's really graphic.”   And it's heeding the Holy Spirit when you get those prompts, instead of just pushing through and being like, “Ah, it's not that big of a deal. It's not going to affect me.” Like when you feel that sense of prompting, you respond to it and you say, “All right, I'm going to put this down. I'm going to shut this off.”   And, um, you know, the scripture says that we can become callous to those promptings of the Holy Spirit if we are in a habit of just running right through that. But we become more sensitive to the Holy Spirit when we yield and when we obey.   Um, and so, I think even just keeping track, you know, every day or every week, like where were the times regarding this or anything else that I really felt convicted by the Holy Spirit about maybe something I said about a friend, uh, or about a little white lie I told, you know, where were the times where I really felt the Holy Spirit nudging me and what did I do? Um, where do I need to confess that I didn't respond well? And where do I need to celebrate that? Yes, I listened, I obeyed, I yielded. Um, and so, I think that's a practice we get into of either ignoring that conviction or really yielding to it.   Laura Dugger: (12:06 – 12:28) Hmm. And that gets after the heart issue, which Jesus is so concerned about our heart. And that's a very softened heart approach. Yes. I hope we can have. And as it relates to sexual integrity, then what are some other ways that we need to be on guard so that we're careful not to be misled?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (12:29 – 13:37) Yeah, boy, I think there's just so much conversation. Um, again, even in Christian circles, sometimes around having a negative attitude towards sex, um, kind of accepting some forms of pornography as normal and even good, you know, husband bashing, wife bashing, you know, like complaining, kind of letting the thought feed in your mind of maybe I should have married somebody else.   Maybe that my life would be easier if I, I weren't married to this person. I wish they were this or that. So, sort of that discontent that is natural to feel in marriage. But the question is, what do you do with it? Do you give it space to grow and to nurture, or do you bring that before the Lord?   Um, so, I think those are some of the ways that we want to look at, like, how am I giving the enemy space in my life and in my marriage versus how am I inviting God to really reclaim what's broken here?   Laura Dugger: (13:38 – 14:01) Well, and then even thinking of the other side to guard ourselves from having a critical and judgmental spirit toward others or just having self-righteous pride. Can you educate us on some common reasons why some people may be predisposed to struggle with some certain sexual sins?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (14:02 – 17:20) Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so important, um, because the research really shows that some of us are more, I don't know if I'd say it that way, but we are going to be more predetermined maybe to struggle with things like pornography or same-sex attraction, or even hooking up.   And it's never like a one plus one equals two exactly. But there are what we might say indicators or risk factors that make you more vulnerable to those kinds of sexual struggles. And some of them might be unhealthy family dynamics growing up, you know, none of us had a perfect family, but let's say you grew up in a family where one of your parents was like overtly critical towards you all the time.   Maybe you went through a divorce with your parents where, um, you know, at a certain age, you just, your family fell apart and you're kind of looking for that stability and love. People who have experienced sexual trauma in childhood or the teen years are going to be more pre-dispositioned to want to understand that or act that out.   People who might struggle with anxiety. And, you know, some of it is we got to understand that sex, because it elicits dopamine in our brain and oxytocin and endorphins, which are all really feel good kind of experiences and hormones and neurotransmitters. When we had a sexual experience at a young age, our brain can learn, “Oh, this is how I deal with stress. This is how I deal with depression. This is how I deal with loneliness.”   So, a lot of times when you talk to somebody who has an ongoing struggle with a sexual temptation or sin, it's because they've learned as a pattern from maybe the time they were 10 years old or 12 years old or 15 years old, that this is how I dealt with the stress in my family. This is how I dealt with when my father died. This is how I dealt with when I was sexually abused. Like this was the way that I found to self-regulate and to self-medicate and to find comfort.   And that can be masturbation. It can be pornography or again, you know, acting out sexually. And so, for people who have that kind of story, and this might be your spouse, or this might be against somebody that you're looking at and judging to just say, “You need to stop that behavior,” is often not going to be enough. They need to do the work of really looking at what am I using sex for? What are the wounds that I'm using sex to cover up?   And how do I actually get the healing I need and find healthier and safer ways for me to cope with negative emotions? And that's why groups are really important for people who have sexual struggles. Counseling is really important. And again, that long journey of healing and freedom, not just a one-time decision that I'm going to try to never do this again.   Laura Dugger: (17:21 – 20:19) Love that word freedom, even because that hope is available. And just pointing out how you said this is not deterministic. That's not what we're saying is if you experience something, you will act out sexually. But I agree with you that it is fascinating and helpful to hear the correlation of certain things that happen, especially in childhood, and how that plays out long-term.   And I am blanking on which guest it was on The Savvy Sauce, but somebody was enlightening me. I think it was for females that if they were sexually abused, typically before a certain age, then they were more likely to struggle in marriage with wanting to completely avoid sex. But then if it was after a certain age, that it was completely opposite where they maybe used sex to medicate, or they were very aggressive and even would act out, let's say in single years, that they would sleep around with a bunch of partners if they had been wounded.   And so, I just think it just, it helps us to not be judgmental of one another. We don't know the full story.   Dr. Juli Slattery: (20:20 – 21:09) Yes. Yeah. There's always more there than we usually realize at first. And, you know, this plays out a lot in marriage because there are a lot of women who are married to guys who are addicted to pornography. And that's a deeply painful dynamic. That's really hard.   But to understand that your husband didn't want to have this struggle, often doesn't know how to get out of it, you know, gives you compassion. It doesn't mean that you look the other way, you need to get help, and you need to insist on getting help. But it does give you empathy and compassion that there's something underlying this and feeding it. It's not just, “Oh, I think I'm going to, you know, look at porn and hurt my wife again,” that there's always a deeper dynamic at work.   Laura Dugger: (21:10 – 21:50) Absolutely. And even an example from your book, I'll just read a quote where you said, “I spoke with a man who runs a sexual addiction program. He told me he had never met someone with sexual addiction, who did not also have significant sexual or psychological trauma in their past.”   And I think it goes along with what we're saying. But if we also then flip it and look at more of the positive side, how can we rightly prioritize connection and intimacy in marriage as God intended?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (21:53 – 24:24) I think first of all, we need to be convinced that this is worth it. You know, when we look at everything there is to do in life, there's so many worthy demands on our time. You know, from I want my house to look nice, and we need to make friends and we need to be an outreach to our community. And our kids are taking a lot of time and they should, and they've got all their activities and our church needs our help. Like when do you have time to do all this? And then, oh yeah, prioritize your marriage.   And I think we have to become convinced that if we're not working on our marriage, and specifically if we're not working on the sexual connection in marriage, then all those other things have the potential to fall apart. That the way I've learned it over time is that sex is never going to be a neutral issue in your marriage. It's either going to be something that is bonding you together and causing you to work on the deeper levels of intimacy, even as you talk through sexual difficulties, or it's going to be something not immediately, but over time, that becomes a wedge between you.   It might start as a wedge of resentment of my needs aren't getting met, or I feel like you're objectifying me or you're putting pressure on me. Or it might be a deeper wedge of a pornography addiction or something that's not being addressed. Or I don't trust my husband because of my trauma. And those things don't just stay dormant. The wedge becomes bigger and bigger and bigger until you get to the place where now you're not comfortable being in the same room anymore and you feel like roommates. And then now one of you is attracted to somebody else and the story plays on.   And there are very wonderful godly men and women who have gotten married with every purpose to stay together. But a wedge like this has grown over time to the point where they're now thinking about divorce or one of them has cheated on the other. And so, we have to be convinced that honoring God in our lives means prioritizing our marriage, and it means working on this intimate aspect of our marriage so that we can be a stable foundation for our families and our churches and our communities.   Laura Dugger: (24:26 – 24:39) And so, if we're getting as practical as possible, what are the best practices that you've seen in married couples who are happily married? How have you experienced that?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (24:40 – 28:04) Yeah. I'll put it in kind of like a cliche sort of way because I think sometimes that's catchy. Number one, I would say they're couples who will resist the drift, who will repair the rift, and who will adjust to the shift.   So, I can kind of break that down a little bit. But you know, the first thing is resisting the drift of you can go weeks without meaningfully connecting with your spouse. And I don't just mean sexually, but I mean like eye to eye, you know, just loving touch, just connecting to their hearts. And so, couples who know how to resist that drift, like they have regular times built into their calendar where this is where we connect every day. Like even for 10 minutes, this is where we hold each other's hands, we look at each other in the eye, we really connect with what's in your heart, how are you? And they have regular rhythms of once a week or once every other week, we're going to go out and do something fun together, just the two of us. We've worked through what sex looks like in this season. Like how many times do we want to have sex? Are we scheduling that? How are we making sure that's a priority? And so, that's the resisting the drift.   And the second one is repairing the rift. And at every marriage, there are going to be things that tear you apart. And sometimes those things might be sexual in nature, like a temptation, an emotional affair, pornography use, sometimes it's going to be something else where you have a deep disagreement that you can't resolve on your own. And you need to be courageous enough to reach out for help and say, like, if we don't get help, if we don't address this issue, like it's going to become something that tears us apart. Any couple that you meet who is happily married for like 30 years or more, they can tell you a story of when they had a rift, and the kind of help that really address that.   And then I think the third thing is adjusting to the shift. And in even the normal stages of marriage, there are shifts that happen. Like, you know, I'm in the stage right now where me and the people my age are going through biological changes with menopause and with aging. And, you know, some people are going through becoming grandparents and retirement. And there's all these shifts that are happening even naturally. There's other couples that are younger who are going through the shift of pregnancy and battling infertility. And some people are going through cancer. And there are things that happen that require you to shift your expectations. And to not just wish that it is like it used to be. But this is the marriage we have now. Here are the circumstances we have now. Here are the bodies we have now. How do we learn to love each other and embrace this season, given the changes that we're experiencing?   And so, I think that's a framework that I've seen healthy couples navigate over time that really fosters intimacy.   Laura Dugger: (28:05 – 29:29) That is incredible. I love how you put that. And I've shared with you before that my background is in Christian sex therapy. So, sex is a topic that does come up a lot and people feel comfortable sharing or asking questions. So, just in regular conversation, I want to recap two conversations that kind of show stances on both ends of the spectrum. And I'd love to hear your wisdom on how to respond to each one.   So, first, there was a Christian married woman with children, and she was teaching younger women to say yes to every single sexual advance from their husband. And she said, “If your husband has the higher drive, and he wants to have sex twice a day, then consider yourself lucky. And don't ever say no, because your body is not your own.” Yeah, it's hard to recap. So, this is not my perspective. So, sharing both ends.   So, that was one person. And then on the other end, I've heard a woman tell me, “You know, I just didn't feel like having sex for about a year and a half after we had our baby. So, I just told my husband, you're going to have to wait.”   So, loaded question, but Dr. Juli, how would you respond to each of those?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (29:29 – 32:31) Well, Laura, I feel like you probably would have just as good of response as I would to those. Yeah, I like that you're presenting those as two extremes, because they are two extremes. And I think both extremes kind of miss the heart. We want to be able to say yes to sex and intimacy. And being able to say yes means also being able to say no.   In that first situation, essentially, what is going to end up happening is that that wife is going to start feeling like my husband wants me for sex. And I don't have the capacity to enjoy it twice a day. I'm starting to feel like an object or used. And the husband is never going to learn that covenant love requires self-denial. And at every level, you know, what did, what did Paul say to husbands in Ephesians 5, like love your wife as you love your own body and be willing to lay down your, your life for your wife. And that means being sensitive to the fact that she doesn't have the same sexual appetite as you do. She doesn't have the same biology you do, that it actually can be physically painful, emotionally traumatic for a wife to have sex when she's not physically ready. Really, that couple is not working on intimacy. They're, they're kind of reinforcing a pattern that sex is about the husband getting his needs and desires met only through the wife without considering her. And that might work for short term, but that's not building intimacy in the long term. And it's not teaching either of them. And that wife needs to learn her own sexual desires and patterns and be able to communicate those to her husband. So, that's what I would say in that first one.   And the second one, essentially, you have a wife kind of having that more selfish perspective of, I only have sex when I want it and on my terms, instead of considering the husband. And, you know, how do I focus on him? How do I work on experiencing sexual desire? How do I foster that? Because it's important for my husband, it's important for our marriage. And I don't want to be selfish.   And so, I think both of those situations are kind of approaching sex where one person gets to be selfish, and the other person has to sacrifice. That's ministry, that's not intimacy. And so, we really want to be at a place where both of us, the higher desire one and the lower desire one, are learning what does it look like to really love well, to love sacrificially and to communicate the ways that I feel loved. I don't know, what would you add to that or change?   Laura Dugger: (32:31 – 33:11) That's why I asked you, you said that beautifully, better than I could have responded. And again, you're getting back to the heart of it and pointing us back to Jesus with each answer. And, you know, commonly people do struggle with having a safe place where they can ask candid questions about sex.   So, I am going to throw some more at you. And some of these are ones that you wrote about. But just to give us a little taste, even of the book, or if somebody has a burning question like this, I'd love your healthy response.   So, how do you respond when people ask, “How far is too far to go in a dating relationship?”   Dr. Juli Slattery: (33:14 – 36:32) Yeah, I think people are looking for a line, you know, like, as long as I don't cross this line, are we good? And of course, I think their traditional line would be as long as you're not having intercourse. But I think that misses the larger context of the purpose of sex. I've had to be convicted of this in my own life. And we talked very early in our conversation about how we've just sort of ingested messages from the culture. And the culture says that healthy sexuality is an expression of how I feel, right? So, so if I feel safe with you, if I feel romantically connected to you, if I feel sexually attracted to you, then it would be healthy for me to engage sexually with you. And then Christians would come and say, yes, but as long as you don't cross this line. So, that's sort of the narrative that I think a lot of us have heard in the church.   But if we look at, from a biblical perspective, God did not design sex to be an expression of how I feel. Okay, let that sink in for a minute. God did not design sex to be an expression of how I feel. He designed it to be a seal and a celebration of covenant, of the choice that a man and a woman make to covenant their lives to one another. And for them to say, just like I give you my whole life, I promise faithfulness to you. I promise that we are becoming one as a family. We have now a physical way to symbolize that in becoming one with our bodies. And so, even if I feel romantically attached to somebody I'm not married to, I don't act on that. Or even if I don't feel romantically attached to my husband, we work on our sex life because we're in covenant.   And so, when you begin to understand sex from that standpoint, you answer that question differently of how far can I go? Why are you sharing your body with another person when you haven't shared your life with them? And, you know, I think that the standard is not legalistic, but the heart of the question is a lot, that's a harder question. You know, like it says, and I think 2 Thessalonians or 1 Thessalonians, you know, Paul says, the will of God is that you do not engage in sexual immorality. Don't take advantage of a brother or sister.   And how many times in dating relationships do you look back and you're like, “Wow, I gave too much of myself to that person or I took too much of myself from that person. Like we engaged in things that now we're broken apart. Like I wish I could take back.” And so, what does it look like to honor each other? What does it look like to honor the Lord? So, I think those kinds of questions help you get to the heart of how do we steward dating relationships a lot better than looking for a line we're not supposed to cross.   Laura Dugger: (36:33 – 37:31) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you? Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world.   So, we need your help.   Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.   As Christ followers, should we use a friend's preferred names and pronouns? So, how would you respond to that?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (37:32 – 39:20) Boy, this is a hot topic. There are people who have really strong opinions on this. You're saying, do I use a friend's preferred names and pronouns?   And I think the fact that you have a friendship means that you can have a deeper conversation about the meaning of the names and pronouns. And I think that deeper conversation needs to happen. Because, you know, ultimately we don't like, we don't want to just say, “Oh yeah, whatever you want to call yourself is fine with me. Truth doesn't matter.” But on the other hand, we really want to get to the spiritual issue underneath this. And there's a, there's a big difference between somebody who doesn't know the Lord, doesn't know where you stand on any of this, and somebody that you can engage in a conversation with and seek wisdom on.   I think there, there's probably more latitude to use somebody's preferred name than pronouns. And I think in friendships, sometimes you can work that through and just say, you know, “Hey, I love you. I understand where you're coming from. I'm going to try my best to use the name that you're asking. But the pronoun is something that I'm not comfortable with. And here's why. And just like I'm, I want to understand where you are. I hope that you would have grace and understand where I am.” So, in a friendship, you're able to have those kinds of conversations. Whereas if it's a coworker or it's a stranger or a neighbor, sometimes we can't have that level of conversation. And so, I, we might choose to handle the situation a little differently.   Laura Dugger: (39:21 – 39:36) That's good. A hundred percent truth, a hundred percent love or kindness. And what if somebody asks, how much attention should we be giving these secondary issues as believers?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (39:39 – 41:03) Boy, I, I think first of all, the secondary issues come out of the primary issues. So, the primary issue, and you know, the issue I wrote Surrendered Sexuality is about is if my life belongs to the Lord, then my whole life needs to belong to Him, including how I think about cultural issues, including how I treat my neighbor.   And so, I don't see them as secondary issues. I see them as an outgrowth of the primary issue. I think when they become secondary issues are when we argue with other believers about it and it becomes the most important thing. Like I put you in a category based on, will you use preferred names and pronouns? And then I think we're missing what God calls us to.   The primary issue is that we want to honor God and we want to love each other. And so, let's keep going back to that primary issue. How do I love my neighbor well? How do I honor God's truth well? How do I pursue unity within the body of Christ well, as we're navigating some of these secondary issues? So, you know, like if we're going back to the primary issue, it means that we have to talk about the secondary issues, but we talk about them in light of what's primary.   Laura Dugger: (41:04 – 41:17) I like that. And I just have three more of these kind of tricky questions. So, another one, does pornography addiction qualify as reasons for a biblical divorce?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (41:20 – 42:50) I would say, first of all, technically, if we look at the word for sexual immorality in the scripture, which is porneia, we would say, yeah, you know, pornography does qualify for that.   But for the person who's asking this, maybe the woman who's asking this, I would say, why do you want to get out of the marriage? And what Jesus said is Moses permitted divorce because of the hardness of your heart. And I think a more important question is where's your heart and where's your husband's heart? Because I've seen people with pornography addictions who have really open hearts towards healing, and they're willing to get the help that they need. They're repentant. They're willing to do the work. They're willing to go through even a time of separation to show that they're serious about that work.   And then there are people who have very hard hearts of, “This is who I am. I might go through the motions, but I'm really not interested in change.” And so, I think the pornography addiction is less the issue than the posture of the person's heart and their willingness to work. And if your spouse is willing to work, then I think it's on us to have soft hearts too, and to be open to the work that God can do.   Laura Dugger: (42:51 – 43:34) That's good because saying you have to zoom out and see more of the story in that stance, because that's very different. Somebody who's working on it and hates the struggle and is wanting to break free versus being married to a narcissist who is abusing you and treating you in a certain way and addicted to pornography. So, you point out well that all of these questions have more to them.   Okay. So, two more, if a spouse has had an emotional affair in the past with a coworker, but they still work with this person, what is the wise thing to do and how should they handle it if their spouse is uncomfortable with them still working there?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (43:36 – 44:33) Yeah, boy, that's something that I would want to seek counseling on. You and your spouse really need to get with a counselor and talk that through. The generic advice in that situation would be to get a different job, to not have that relationship still a temptation or available.   But there are sometimes very extenuating circumstances where that's not a possibility, or at least for now, that's not a possibility. And so, I would really encourage you to meet with a third party to sort through the details of your particular situation. Because it could be that your spouse isn't willing to take that hard step of cutting off that relationship, or it could be that they're willing, but again, there's extenuating circumstances. And I would really want a wise person who is engaging with you to help you navigate that.   Laura Dugger: (44:34 – 44:44) But I love that, how you highlight that something to look for though, is that you would hope your spouse would be willing to make that right, especially if they were the offending.   Dr. Juli Slattery: (44:46 – 44:46) Okay.   Laura Dugger: (44:47 – 45:00) And then also, Juli, because scripture does talk about turning the other cheek, does that mean it's the same as saying God expects you to stay in an abusive marriage?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (45:02 – 47:41) Absolutely not. If you were in an abusive marriage, you are not doing your spouse any good. You are allowing your spouse to be in a place where they're destroying their own life and they're destroying the people that they love.   Now you say, okay, where biblically do we see this? We see that Jesus, he says in John, he says, “I laid down my life for my sheep. I lay it down willingly. No one has the authority to take it from me. I have the authority to lay it down and I have the authority to take it up again.” And we see Him living that out with religious leaders who were after Him all the time, who wanted to stone Him, who were accusing Him of things. It says over and over again that Jesus escaped from them. He just got out of there until it was time that the Father said, now is the time for you to give yourself for the world.   So, we take that principle and we say, Jesus was not abused. Jesus did not let Himself be abused. He gave Himself as a lamb to the slaughter as a sacrifice for the Father and for the world. But that's very different. Up until that time, we see Him have great boundaries. We see Him not get, it even says He didn't entrust Himself to man because He knew what was in their hearts. I mean, He had boundaries with people that could have hurt Him.   And I also love when we see this in the story of King David and Saul, when Saul is chasing David, Saul is abusive, right? He wants to kill David. And so, David escapes. And there's a situation where David has the power or the opportunity to kill Saul and he doesn't do it. And then Saul just is struck by his conscience, and he comes back to David. He goes, “You're a better man than I am. I'm so sorry. You know, come back with me and I'll treat you well.” And even though David doesn't take revenge, he doesn't go back with Saul. He's still, he's like, “You go your way. I'll go my way. I'm going to let the Lord judge between us.”   And I think that's a great model. If you're in any kind of abusive relationship, you don't take revenge, but you also don't stay in that situation. You go your way, let them go their way, and you let God judge between you. And I think we see that over and over again in scripture.   Laura Dugger: (47:42 – 48:19) I think that is so well said. And it reminds me of a somewhat recent conversation in 2025 with Stacey Womack who's saying with domestic violence, really the way God would see it is child abuse. And that kind of helps our paradigm because we are His child.   And she elaborates on that. So, I said that that was the last one, but I actually thought of one more as it relates to our children.   So, is it reasonable to assume that once a child has a smartphone, 100% of them will be exposed to pornography?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (48:21 – 49:15) Yeah, it is. And I would say not just once they have a smartphone, because I know with one of my kids, we delayed the smartphone decision, but he had a learning disability that required him to have an iPad for school. And somehow, even though we locked down all the apps, somehow he's able to access it through that. Or it can be a gaming system, or it can be a friend's phone. And so, having a smartphone or device like that certainly makes it more probable.   But you know, like our kids are surrounded by screens and technology, not just what's in our home, but in other people's homes and at school. And so, I think it's safe to assume, unfortunately, that yes, 100% of our kids are going to be exposed to pornography, probably by the time they're 13 or 14.   Laura Dugger: (49:16 – 49:31) And sadly, some much younger than that. But even if there's parental controls, or filters put on, it is just something on my heart that we have to be so vigilant against.   Dr. Juli Slattery: (49:32 – 50:12) Yeah, no, I felt like when, you know, I have three boys, and when they were all three kind of in those teen years, I felt like I was trying to plug holes in a boat, and there'd be new ones popping up all the time. Whether it's like apps, or you know, things that you think are completely safe. Somehow, pornography can get through.   And our kids are smart, like they know the workarounds to the parental things. And that's why we just need to have conversation after conversation, just discipling them, not just protecting them from pornography, but discipling them through what they're inevitably going to be exposed to.   Laura Dugger: (50:13 – 51:05) That's a great point that not just being reactive, but proactive. I think why I have such a heart for this is because practicing and doing therapy and having so many people come in those wounds, that if that addiction gets a stronghold, and that pornography use, it just can wreak havoc in people long term. And so, if we can do that hard work of discipling early on, it is such a blessing to our children, to the generation.   So, I'm just so grateful for your candid responses. And I think it's also a helpful reminder just to never take on a burden that was never meant for us to carry. So, are there any ways that God has taught you to not try and do His business?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (51:07 – 52:16) Yeah. Boy, that's such a great question. I've had to come to the conclusion that I can't convince anyone of right and wrong. You know, like, I can't convince anyone that pornography is wrong, or gay marriage is wrong, or you know, like, that's not my job. My job is to walk with the Lord with integrity and faithfulness and to testify as to who He is.   And so much of this work, whether we're talking about marriage or our friends or our children, so much of this work has to be the Lord's work. And you reach a stage with your kids when they hit those teen years, where you realize the things my kids most need, I can't give them. I can't give them a relationship with God. I can't give them the desire to follow and seek the Lord. Like, I can model that for them. I can encourage them. But that is between them and the Lord. And if I try to control that, I'm just getting in the way of the work that God wants to do in their lives.   Laura Dugger: (52:18 – 52:33) Goodness, I will need to write that down and reflect on that. That is so good, Juli. And there's still so much more that you could share with us.   So, where is your preferred place that we can go online and continue learning from you?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (52:34 – 52:48) Yeah, I would say two places. Number one, our website is authenticintimacy.com. And the second one is the podcast that I do called Java with Juli. It goes along with The Savvy Sauce, you know, like they kind of go together.   Laura Dugger: (52:49 – 53:11) Yes, absolutely. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode.   And you're familiar, I've asked you many times before, because we are called savvy, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So, as my final question for you today, Dr. Juli, what is your savvy sauce?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (53:13 – 53:58) Oh, I don't even remember how I answered this the last few times. I think I may have said this before, but I think reading the dead old guys is one of my savvy sauce, like reading people who didn't live in this generation who loved the Lord.   And learning from them is just, that's probably taught me more discernment than anything, because they just cut right through the cultural noise that I think sometimes can blind us. And they really help me see my heart for what it is and help me really want to pursue God at a deeper level.   Laura Dugger: (53:59 – 54:03) Wow. Any specific recommendations that have been personal favorites there?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (54:04 – 54:22) Yeah, I love A.W. Tozer. I love many of Andrew Murray's books, particularly Humility and Absolute Surrender. And C.S. Lewis is another great one, Mere Christianity. So, those are some that I would recommend you start with.   Laura Dugger: (54:23 – 54:44) That is wonderful. Thank you for sharing that.   And Juli, it's just always such a delight to get to share an hour of conversation with you. And you are just this beautiful mixture of bold and gentle and humble, all combined into one. So, thank you for being my returning guest today.   Dr. Juli Slattery: (54:44 – 54:49) Oh, thank you. And it's such a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for your great questions.   Laura Dugger: (54:51 – 58:33) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

If you are among the tens of millions of people who caught Bad Bunny's Super Bowl Halftime Show, you might've noticed a moment when the jumbotron featured a toad. Turns out it's the Puerto Rican Crested Toad, which is native to the island and an endangered species. It's also the subject of conservation efforts at the Miller Park Zoo in Bloomington. We'll talk with them about their work on Bad Bunny's favorite amphibian.

February 12, 2026The Halftime Division-LET'S GET JACKED UP!     In this episode Jack and Tim discuss how the halftime show of the Big Game, divided families and friends. What really is the big goal of the Elites? How many watched Turning Point USA American halftime show?      We try and break down one of the most talked-about halftime shows in Super Bowl history — Bad Bunny's performance at Super Bowl LX — and explores how a musical spectacle became a cultural flashpoint that split opinions across America and beyond.   Please Note:  There are a couple of satire skits in this episode, it is meant for humor.Listen to all of our episodes by visiting LetsGetJackedUp.com or by visiting FringeRadioNetwork.com You can purchase a Captain Leap Walker Tee shirt by visiting FringeRadioNetwork.com/shop Central Illinois, please email Tim for your roofing and gutter needs at Roofertimmer@gmail.com Special Thanks to 309 Roofing

282. Family Sabbath: Pause and Delight with Eryn Lynum   Mark 2:27 NIV “Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”   *Transcription Below*   Eryn Lynum is a certified Master Naturalist, Bible teacher, national speaker, and author. Eryn lives in Northern Colorado with her husband, Grayson, and their four children, whom they homeschool—mainly in the great outdoors. Eryn has has been featured on FamilyLife Today, Proverbs 31 Ministries, Christian Parenting, MOPS International, Bible Gateway, Her View From Home, and For Every Mom. Every opportunity she gets, she is out exploring God's creation with her family and sharing the adventures. To learn more about Eryn, visit ErynLynum.com.   Eryn's Books Eryn's Free Resources Mentioned Nat Theo Podcast   Topics and Questions We Cover: What can this look like to daily align our activities with our deepest values? What do people actually do on this day of rest and what do you recommend for families? Are there any other practical benefits we're missing out on if we neglect rest?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company   Related Savvy Sauce Episodes: 81 Rest with Doctor, Author, and Speaker, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith 99 Sabbath Rest with Sandy Feit 175 Practicing Sabbath with Shireen Eldridge   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:34) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.   Eryn Lynum is my wonderful guest for today, and she's the author of this beautiful book, The Nature of Rest. We're going to discuss all things related to rest, ways that we can prepare for it, how we can enjoy and delight in it, what good gifts God has for us with rest, and then how to reflect well on the rhythms in our life, and so much more.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Eryn.   Eryn Lynum: (1:34 - 4:03) Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.   Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love for you to start us off by sharing your personal journey and tell why you are so uniquely qualified to teach and write about rest, as stress can literally kill you.   Eryn Lynum: Yeah, that's correct. So, when I was 14 years old, I was diagnosed with a potentially fatal autoimmune disorder. And kind of the context of that season, I was preparing to go overseas for the first time on a missions trip. So, I was going to be in Africa for two months. And so, before you go do something like that, you have to go to the doctor and get a checkup and vaccine recommendations, all the things. And so, my parents took me in.   Again, I was 14 at the time, and we had no reason to believe that there was anything wrong. There were no red flags. Besides, I had been a little tired, a little dizzy once in a while, but really, we just thought, okay, well, I'm growing up, my body's changing. But when the nurse took my blood pressure that day, it was 56 over 48, which is deathly low.   And so, immediately, that's a red flag. And I undergo more testing and hospital visits and seeing specialists. And they diagnosed me with something called Addison's disease. And Addison's disease, it's where your adrenal glands no longer function. So, maybe you've heard of adrenal fatigue, where someone is so taxed out that their adrenal glands can't keep up because they're meant to produce cortisol, which is our stress hormone. Well, Addison's disease is the worst-case scenario where you can't come back from it, barring a miracle. Like, my adrenal glands don't work, and they haven't for over 20 years now.   And so, you know, this system that God has given us meant to cope with stress, and it's that fight-or-flight response. At that young age, I no longer had that. And so, stress became quite literally deadly to me. And at that point, my parents, they began coaching me in biblical stress management, so identifying stressors in my life.   You know, when your shoulders start creeping up, and you can feel that tension in your neck, and knowing that those are signs that, okay, you need to step back, you need to calm yourself. Like the Psalms talk about, “I have calmed and quieted my soul,” and to bring everything to the Lord and cast all your anxieties upon Him. And this is really where I can see, in my life, I developed a very consistent prayer pattern in my life where just all day long, like conversing with the Lord.   And so, that's been a big part of this. But yeah, that's really what began leading me into this deeply restful lifestyle was out of necessity. But really what I've seen since then is God designed all of us to live and thrive through rest. Like this is His original design.   Laura Dugger: (4:04 - 4:27) I love that so much. And you articulate this so well in your book. But before I ever encountered you, I had never heard of the term master naturalist before. So, if you want to share anything about that, it would be great. And as a master naturalist, where do you see these rhythms of rest in nature?   Eryn Lynum: (4:28 - 6:54) So, a master naturalist, it's really a fancy term for nature teacher. And I pursued this because my degree and my passion are in biblical theology. And I've always been passionate about rightly handling God's word of truth from 2 Timothy 2:15.   And I began to see as my own family, my husband and I, we have three boys and a daughter, and now they're 14 down to seven. But when they were younger and we started spending more time outdoors, I started to see, okay, God has given us so many visuals and materials in nature with which we can teach about Him. Coming from Romans 1:20, that His invisible attributes, those things we can't see about God, are clearly perceived through what He has made. And I saw that also Jesus in the gospels, He used nature all the time to teach.   And God throughout scripture, like it's not just Genesis 1, nature narratives are strong throughout scripture. And so, I thought if God and Jesus use this methodology to teach, then certainly we can. And so, that's why I went through this training and taught, teach with this method is because, you know, the more we understand these materials, the more we see of God and the more we can communicate about Him.   And so, I was working as a master naturalist in our city and teaching my own programs. And I started to incorporate it more and more into my book and then later on in my podcast. And at the same time, God was leading my family into celebrating Sabbath. We had come into this season where we were just exhausted, like running businesses and raising and homeschooling kids, like all of us, no matter our circumstances, face this very real human existence of fatigue. And so, we came to a place where rest was no longer optional. It was critical and vital.   And so, I'm living in these two realms of learning about nature while I'm learning about scripture. And then God is bringing us into deep rest. So, I started to ask the question, where do we see rest in scripture? And I found that it is everywhere. The roots of rest run deep and wide throughout scripture. And also asking, where do we see rest in creation in nature? And it's also everywhere there that God designed all these cycles and these rhythms and all of his plants and creatures, even the ones that we think of as so frenetic and busy that God designed them to thrive through rest.   Laura Dugger: (6:55 - 7:04) And will you give a specific example then of something in nature as it's so apparent that it's designed for rest?   Eryn Lynum: (7:04 - 8:28) Definitely. Let's focus on one of those ones that we often think of as really busy, the hummingbird. I opened the book with the analogy of a hummingbird because when you think about a hummingbird, what do you picture in your mind?   Laura Dugger: (7:17 - 7:19) Busy, constant movement in and out.   Eryn Lynum: (7:20 - 8:28) Yeah, exactly. Like they have to visit between 1,000 and 2,000 flowers every day to get all the nectar that they need. And so, they are always like here and there in the next place. And they look like this little thing just zipping through the air and you can't even see their wings beating because they can be up to 70 times a second. It's this blur of motion. And we think about that little hummingbird, and we can sometimes feel like that little hummingbird just zipping from one thing to the next, thinking there's no time to stop.   But the hummingbird does stop. It has a very strategic method of rest called torpor. And torpor is kind of like a mini hibernation where the little bird is going to go into this deep state of rest. It lowers its body temperature by around 50 degrees and becomes completely unresponsive. And this is a regular thing that the hummingbird does, and it enables it to continue its God-given, good, busy, fruitful work. So, it's this picture of, you know, busyness is not bad. God created us for fruitful work, but it's all meant to be sustained through deep, rhythmic, intentional rest.   Laura Dugger: (8:28 - 9:06) I mean, immediately that makes me think of the weeks, even that I'm most productive, I've probably prioritized my sleep the best of it. And if I get great sleep, even if it's extra hours, that doesn't take away from the rest of the day. That probably makes my time even multiplied.   Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I love, you point out so many times how God just clearly designed his creation to enjoy this gift of rest. So, you mentioned some of the nature parts. What about some of the foundational scriptural truths on this topic?   Eryn Lynum: (9:07 - 11:52) Yeah, well, of course, where's the first place that we get the idea of rest in the scripture? Yeah, exactly. So, God completes his work of creation and then he rests and he didn't need to rest. Isaiah 40:28 tells us that he, the creator of the world does not grow weary or tired.   I believe that one reason, and I talk about a couple of them in the book, but I believe that one main reason God rested was to stop and delight. That word Sabbath, it comes from the Hebrew word Shabbat, which can mean to both stop and delight. Like think about God finishing his creative work, bringing, bringing everything from nothing. Ex nihilo is that theological term, everything from nothing. Creating not only the animals and the plants, but the textures and the math and the shapes and the like everything he needed to make these things. And I imagine he just wanted to stop and enjoy it. I can even picture him going through creation and listening to the birds and taking in the colors and the shapes of the clouds.   What a beautiful reminder to us, because I know for myself, I'm so prone to just run from one thing to the next, like check it off the list. What's next? But here God is modeling for us. Stop delight, praise him for what he just allowed us to accomplish, to create, to do before rushing on to the next thing.   And so, we get that first mentioned there at creation, but then think about when Sabbath was actually established, there's a framework, there's a structure it's Exodus 16. And the context here is the Israelites. They're doing what they do. They're wandering and grumbling. They're hangry and God shows mercy to them in the form of quail and manna, but he has very specific instructions for them. He says for six days, you shall gather it, but not on the seventh day. Don't go out. It is a solemn day, a Holy Sabbath to the Lord.   That's the first mention of Sabbath, that word in scripture, but consider the Israelites. They had no context for what God was calling them to do. Surely they could think back to the creation story. Okay. God worked and then rested, but they had very little idea of what he was asking them to do. This was an act of faith. God was saying, stop gathering, trust me.   And this is so hard for us because like we are so prone to gather, gather, gather, do produce work more out of this scarcity mindset. But this picture is showing God is a God of abundance and his math works. When we trust him to be the provider, not ourselves. And we take that risk on rest. He provides abundantly through it.   Laura Dugger: (11:53 - 12:05) Absolutely. And within this gift then of rest, how can rest actually reorder and re-energize our lives?   Eryn Lynum: (12:05 - 14:03) I love this question because throughout the book, we talk a lot about reordering and creating margins. So, we can rest and reprioritizing. You know, it's so interesting when we look at the creation narrative, where we get that first mention of rest, because it's backwards to what we normally think.   Think about this. God created for six days and then he rested. Adam, the first human was created on that sixth day. So, Adam's first full day was a day of arrest, dedicated to rest. And in this, we see that God worked and then rested. But we, humanity, we were always meant to begin from rest.   And you see that even in the Hebrew tradition of a day, their day begins at evening. Their day doesn't start with, let's get up and get to work. Their day starts with, let me go to rest to get ready for the work. So, first we have to reorder our concept of rest, not see it as a reward. Oh, I'm going to work, work, work, get all the things done so that maybe I can rest this weekend or on vacation, or when the kids are out of the house or in retirement, that's backwards to the biblical framework. We are meant to begin from rest.   So, starting there. And as we do that, my family has found after sabbathing for three and a half years now, everything else kind of falls into place. And that happens when you operate by God's design. You know, rest allows us to tend to the most important things. Those deep values, whether like that should be of course, faith and family. So, getting clear on your values is really important. Like what is most important to your family faith? Maybe it's community generosity. Maybe it's physical health, mental health, all these things do better. And we have more time to tend to them when we first make room and space for rest.   Laura Dugger: (14:04 - 16:28) And now a brief message from our sponsor.    With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton and Washington. And with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company.   They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. And make sure you check out their newest offering, the McKinley located in Pekin is a new construction addition to their platinum collection featuring nine foot ceilings, large spacious layouts, beautiful finishes, such as courts, countertops, and garages. You won't want to miss this outstanding new property in Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices.   Check out their brand new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on prospect. And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. If you want to become part of their team, contact them about open office positions.   They're also hiring in their maintenance department. So, we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them. Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com, check them out and find your place to call home today.   It never ceases to amaze me how God's economy and his math are just different. Sometimes upside down from ours, but I feel like when you're speaking, it reminds me of Matthew 6:33, “But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.” So, if we actually obey, I think there are so many blessings that we can enjoy from this gift of rest. So, you're talking about our values. Then what can this look like to daily align our activities with our deepest values?   Eryn Lynum: (16:30 - 18:30) Yes, this is an ongoing practice because the enemy is always trying to distract us from what is most important. And that word there is key distract. And so, first we have to learn to identify those distractions, the things that are pulling us away from what is most important, but you know, getting to those core values and on my website, I have, my husband and I developed a family values guide that helps you step by step to really figure out what are our deepest values.   So, that's erinlynum.com/values. But really what it is, is this practice of getting clear on God's best for, for us and for our families and for those around us and, and making sure that we are aligning and realigning because it's going to get out of alignment, those values with God's agenda. You know, a lot of days I just start my day with a restful pause.   I call them in the book, Selah pauses. And I am quite literally, I am sitting before the Lord, my eyes closed and my hands just up in this posture of surrender and receiving. And I will say, Lord, I am surrendering my own agenda, my own expectations for this day. And I want to receive your power, your presence, your peace. And then throughout the day, just taking those checks.   Like I practice these daily Selah pauses and moments of rest because think about Selah in the Psalms. It can mean to pause, to contemplate, to redirect. And we need to do that often because as a day goes on, I think we lose energy and focus. You know, at the beginning of the day, we might feel really like focused. And this is what I'm getting done today. And that can waver like that can wane out as the day goes on. And so, constantly just checking back in.   Okay, Lord, what is it you have for me to do today? And how do I tend to those most important things? But you have to take that restful pause to be able to do that.   Laura Dugger: (18:31 - 18:46) That's good reminder. Okay. So, to check back in with the Lord and then can you give another example of one family and what their value is and how they live that out in their daily life. And maybe even what requires us to say no to.   Eryn Lynum: (18:47 - 20:15) Ooh, that's a fantastic question. Hmm. Can it be for my own family or do you want me to give them love it from your own family?   Okay. I was asked this question recently. Someone asked me, how do you make time to be outside as a family? One of our core family values is to be out exploring in God's creation. And this has been harder in different seasons. And we have two middle schoolers now, you know, we are, we have a lot going on.   And so, it can very quickly happen where at the end of the day, we're like, wow, we really didn't spend much time outdoors today, but how we prioritize this is you do have to say no to other things. So, we're a homeschooling family. And just as an example, it can be very tempting to feel like, am I doing enough? Am I teaching them enough? We need to check off all these boxes and get the lessons done. And it's constantly surrendering that and realizing, you know, I know that our value of being outdoors is important to God. I know that he is meeting my children there. He is meeting me there. He is giving us rest and rejuvenation there.   So, trusting with that, again, going back to the Israelites, stop gathering, stop checking off all the boxes, stop trying to provide and meet your own expectations. And instead stay super focused on what God has called you to and ruthlessly get rid of the rest, anything that's keeping you from that.   Laura Dugger: (20:16 - 20:36) I love that personal example. Thank you for sharing. And how can we also in our own families or in our own life, how can we distinguish which activities are vital for the abundant life in Christ that he offers so that we don't settle for less?   Eryn Lynum: (20:38 - 22:46) I love that you bring up that, that term, the abundant life. In John 10:10, that Christ came, that we might have life and life abundantly overflowing to the fullest, like brimming over is what that word means. And that scripture also says the enemy comes to steal and kill and destroy.   And I believe that one of the enemy's biggest schemes and methods for that is to send us into hurry and hustle mode. And he does that through distraction and discontent. And so, so much of this is pressing back against distraction and discontent and getting back to how God created us to thrive.   And again, I believe that that is through this, this gift of rest. You know, you talk about, you asked about settling for less. The enemy is going to put a million things in our life that would cause us to want to settle for less.   Let me give you an example of him trying to distract us. There was a recent weekend where we were coming up on the weekend, and I had several friends reach out and ask about me doing these things like these different opportunities coming our way. Like, do you want to do this? Do you want to do this? And each of them were for on Saturday and that's usually when our family Sabbaths. And so, I had this tension because these were good things.   It's hard to say no to a good thing, but I kept feeling again and again, the Lord saying, no, rest with your family, rest with your family. And it was so sweet because come Saturday morning, I was out on our back deck sipping coffee with my husband for hours, having incredible conversations, reading great books. The kids are playing in the yard.   Several times I caught myself thinking, I almost said no to this by saying yes to other things. And again, they were good things. This life is full of good things, but God's rest is one of the best things for our families. So, it's learning to be okay with saying no to those good things. So, you can say yes to that better thing.   Laura Dugger: (22:48 - 23:17) Examples are so helpful. And that requires a level of discernment and going to the Lord to ask him, but I'm wondering if you even have a system in place for how you discern that, or is it a gut piece that you follow or any practical ways that each of us can discern what's the right kind of busy that's good. And what's the wrong kind of busy and the things that we want to say no to.   Eryn Lynum: (23:18 - 25:05) Yeah. Going back to, again, busy is not bad. God created us for fruitful work, but I think, you know, when we are following Christ and God's spirit is within us, he's going to give us that sense of this is the right kind of busy.   This is the wrong kind of busy. And practically, you know, if it has any notion of distraction, like if you're doing this thing to just distract you or to procrastinate on better things, if it has a note of busyness, you know, some people will be like, well, some people, the enemy makes us want to think that sitting on our phones can be restful because you're not technically doing much of anything, but that distraction is stealing God's true gift of rest for us.   And so, you know, our family, as we practice Sabbath throughout the week, I know that come Saturday, we have a full day of rest. And sometimes it's tempting to add a little work into there, to let it seep out of those edges of the work week and kind of into our Sabbath. And as you practice this more and more and begin just ruthlessly protecting that time, whether it's a full day, whether you start with a half day, God is going to make you more sensitive to those things. Because sometimes I'll like work it out in my mind, like, oh, this isn't work. And really like it's definitely, it's definitely trying to serve my work during the work week.   And God is saying, no, like step away from that and allow me to refresh and rejuvenate your spirit so that when you go back to the work, you do so much more powerfully energized, restful, and ready to do that work to the very best of your ability with God's power.   Laura Dugger: (25:07 - 25:36) That reminds me of a previous guest I'll link to. He did two episodes, but Jeff Henderson just said he's a pastor too. And he said, sometimes the most spiritual thing you can do is take a nap.   I would agree on that, which you've kind of been sharing a little glimpses of your family's experience with Sabbath, but let's just zero in on Sabbath and I'll just try and go through a series of questions. But first what's the importance of Sabbath?   Eryn Lynum: (25:37 - 26:55) Well, first God commands it. Like if God commanded it, then surely it's important, but that can also sometimes cause us to get a little legalistic about it. What is it? What isn't it? Well, it is meant to be a gift, meant to be a blessing. It's meant to empower us and what God created us for and calls us to.   And so, keeping that just center, this is meant to be a gift, but we see it all throughout scripture, the importance of rest and rest in God's design. It's celebration. Like it's not idleness. It's not doing nothing. Although sometimes like that's the most beneficial way that we can rest. Like you talked about a nap.   I love a good nap on Sabbath, but also it can be energizing activities, inspiring activities. I also love a good long walk on Sabbath. Sometimes I love cooking with fresh ingredients and working on a meal during Sabbath because I don't get much opportunity to do that during the week. Sometimes I love going out and working in the garden because that's life giving and I don't have time to do that throughout the week. And so, getting back to this concept, this idea of Sabbath and rest are celebratory. Like when we do it well as a family, it feels like a mini vacation every week.   Laura Dugger: (26:56 - 27:15) Ooh, I love that. My husband said that before about date night and I connect with that, that it's a little mini reprieve, a mini vacation each week. But then that leads me to the question because I bet so many people share their Sabbath activities with you. What do families actually do on this day of rest?   Eryn Lynum: (27:16 - 31:46) Yeah, that's a great question. And first I'll say that it should look different from family to family. We are all in unique seasons. We have different stories, different scenarios. Again, if you can't start with the full day, now I strongly believe strive and work toward that full day. That's God's design.   And we've seen the most blessing from that. But if you have to start smaller with a half day with four hours, start there. So, it's going to look different. If you have newborns, like a newborn child, it's going to look different and that's okay. No going into it, that it's going to be messy. Hebrews says strive toward rest, work toward rest. It's so counter-cultural. We have to work toward it. So, just going in, knowing these things is very helpful.   It's also going to grow, adapt, and change throughout the seasons. Our family has seen that. But a typical Sabbath for our family right now is we follow the traditional Friday evening to Saturday evening for the most part. Some people ask me, why not Sunday? Isn't Sunday the Sabbath? Well, for us, Sunday is set aside for church community and fellowship and corporate worship. And that's so life-giving to our souls. But by the time I get home from church and I'm making lunch for the family, like I'm not rested physically. So, we needed a separate day set aside for rest.   And so, Friday afternoon, we start preparing where we're going to band together and just pick up the house, get it ready, wash all the dishes and just start preparing our hearts, our minds, our bodies, our home for rest. And then we start Friday evening with communion as a family, just breaking bread and celebrating what Christ did on our behalf. And again, that, that idea of celebrate, and this marks it as special. Okay. We're heading into Sabbath. Some families will like light a white candle for Sabbath, just really marking it. And then we have, we toast to the week. So, we'll pour sparkling juice and just toast and say, “Hey, what did we see God do this week?” Like going back to that idea of stop and delight, we are setting a hard stop to the week. We are delighting. What did we see God do? What did he help us overcome? What can we thank Him for from this past week? And then we'll do an easy dinner. Think tacos, take and bake pizza spaghetti.   We use paperware, which is a bit controversial since I work as a master naturalist, but it has been an easy button for Sabbath that I'm not worried about like dishes piling up on the counter. And then we'll, we'll wrap it up with a sweet treat like ice cream and then our kids go to bed, or they'll listen to audio books. Audio books have been massive for our Sabbath because they're screen-free because we do put away all screens and work like devices on Sabbath, but they can listen to good books.   And my husband and I, we read, like people ask me, when do you find time to read? You don't find time to read. You have to make time to read. And for us, that's on the Sabbath mostly. And then Saturday we sleep in, we get up pretty early during the week and the kids just know like you don't wake mom and dad on the Sabbath. Like that's their day to sleep in.   Again, if you have a newborn or young children, that's gonna look different and that's okay. But for us, that's the season that we're in and our kids, they'll make themselves first breakfast and then eventually we'll get up and we'll join them for a second breakfast or some Sabbath. I don't want to cook at all. And so, it's just take and forage. And you know, I usually have a grocery delivery the day before or go to the grocery store and make sure we just have a ton of good stuff in the house. So, no one's, you know, everyone has what they need.   Then the rest of the day, it is just a day of delight. Reading books, playing games, being out in creation, visiting with neighbors, having great conversations together. Sabbath is this space where you get to do all those things during the week that you're like, oh, I wish I had time for that and you just don't get to them. Like recently my daughter during the week, she really wanted me, she's seven. She wanted me to sit down and watercolor paint with her, which I love doing, but it was a really busy week. And I just didn't have the space.   And so, I told her like, “Hey, I would love to do that. Can we do that on Sabbath?” And she was so happy with that answer. And come that Sabbath a few days later, she remembered, she came up to me. She's like, mom, it's time to paint. And she got all the supplies, and we went and sat outside at our picnic table and painted for the afternoon.   You know, Sabbath does so much for me as a mom to remove that guilt of the things I don't feel like I have time for because I know, and my kids know, Sabbath is coming and that's our day to be together and do those things.   Laura Dugger: (31:47 - 31:57) Hmm. Okay. That makes me curious. Then to how much of a vote does everyone in the family get for what Sabbath will look like?   Eryn Lynum: (31:57 - 34:02) Oh, that is a great question. No one's ever phrased it to me like that before. I love that. What we found that's been important to keep in mind is that we all individually find different things, restful and inspiring. I'll give you an example. One Sabbath, my husband, especially in the spring, he loves to work in the yard on Sabbath because he spends most of his week. He runs a construction company on the computer or on the phone. And so, in the spring, he wants to be out in the yard and trimming his fruit trees and just working with God's creation. And so, one Sabbath he comes and he has like the clippers in his hand and he's like, “Hey, let's go work on the yard.”   And I was like, that's great. You do that. I'm going to go read my book in the hammock. And I fell asleep for two hours while he worked on the yard. And so, a lot of this is being okay that yes, a lot of it's going to be together. Like I talked about, we did, we do communion together and we do meals together. And a lot of times we'll be out on a hike together. That's a favorite Sabbath activity. But a lot of times we're also doing separate activities.   The kids are enjoying their books or their audio books or their painting or their, uh, visiting the neighbor kids. And my husband and I are reading books on the back deck. And so, it's okay that there's going to be some together time and some separate time, you know, just being flexible with it. Like our first year of Sabbath, we went, we had to go like hardcore. We had to learn to stay. I think about in the book, I talk about the word abide meno in the Greek and it can mean to stay, to dwell, to remain.   So, we've spent our first year of Sabbath, not getting in the car. We stayed home and learned to just be home together. And after that year, we started to miss our time. We live in Colorado, missing our time hiking in the mountains. And so, we changed it. We said, okay, well, toward the end of Sabbath Saturday afternoon, Saturday evening, let's go hike or let's go have a picnic in the wilderness. And just being open to that, that God's going to change you as a family and change you individually. And just growing up in a Sabbath practice together.   Laura Dugger: (34:03 - 34:20) I like the freedom that you're communicating there. And then when you mentioned the neighborhood kids, it makes me curious. Do you encourage community for some of those who recharge with other people? Would you recommend Sabbath thing with others or just keeping it your family?   Eryn Lynum: (34:21 - 36:16) Absolutely. We love inviting others into Sabbath. And it actually started with, we started our Sabbath practice. It was so sweet because God convinced us to do this. And then our first Sabbath was on January 1st. That happened to be the first Saturday that we did it. So, it was like this fresh start. And right around that time, we had moved to a new neighborhood. And our neighbors near us are Messianic Jews.   And they follow Shabbat, the traditional Shabbat. And they invited us into that. It was the sweetest evening, and they have children, young children, like we do. So, like there's chaos and there's mess. And then there's sweet times of singing together and scripture reading. And they follow it much more the traditional method than our family has.   But it was so sweet to be invited into that and to get a picture for how to invite others into this rest. And so, absolutely, we encourage, especially our kids having friends over. And we do usually ask parents, hey, can you drop them off? And then we can bring them back maybe like later that day toward the end of our Sabbath. Or if you want to come pick them up. Because again, we like to just stay home if we can.   But our kids are to the point now too where they can ride their bikes over to friends' houses. And we're fine with that. They might not be home on Sabbath once in a while. It's not a regular thing. But they're getting fed. And we know that the people they're with are people who share our values, people that we do life together.   We love having bonfires in the backyard on Sabbath. Now one thing I have to be careful of is I don't want to invite people over and feel like I need to host or clean up first. And so, for one, we don't have full families over a whole lot on Sabbath because I just don't want any sort of self-induced, self-imposed pressure.   But sometimes it's so much fun to just be like, hey, let's go meet at a park and have a picnic dinner. Or let's have a family over and do a bonfire. Just making sure that you're keeping it really, really simple if you are going to incorporate community.   Laura Dugger: (36:17 - 37:54) Guess what? We are no longer an audio-only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube, and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.   Some of these things, like you said, “They do require forethought where you have the groceries coming or certain things in place. And I think you even refer to it as a sacred striving.” So, it's important for us to learn more about that. And here's a quick story.   I just remember we've moved states quite a few times in marriage. But when I was a young mom, there was a mom in the next season of life, and she had more kids than we did. And we went to church together, and she was just like, “Oh, we learned about Sabbath. That's not a thing for moms with multiples.” And I always wrestled with that, and I love her. She's a wonderful person. Maybe she's even changed her stance on that, so it's not to speak ill of her. But I do think that we can struggle with that because that's not an actual truth. I do think that's a message from the enemy.   So, I guess this is a two-part question. How do we protect ourselves from buying into a storyline that is not true that may hold us back from Sabbath? And then also, what is kind of the both and? It's both restful, and it requires a lot of work up front to make this a reality.   Eryn Lynum: (37:55 - 41:19) It does, and knowing that, that it is going to take work, but God's going to bless it. Think about Isaiah 55:10-11, that says, “Just like the rain and the snow go forth and produce life and bring forth life from the land, so my work goes out and does not return void or empty. It produces that which I sent it out for.”.   That is true for Sabbath and rest because, again, we find it all throughout scripture. So, know that it's going to take hard work, but God will not allow it to return void. He will bless our efforts as we step into His design that He created us for.   I talk about in the book a few ways that you have to prepare mentally, physically, and spiritually. So, mentally, for me, I have to just totally remove anything mentally that's going to distract me from rest. So, I own a business, and so a lot of my work is on the computer and on the phone. I will answer, so this is like Friday, I'll answer any lingering emails, those ones that are going to be on my mind if I don't get to them. And then I put an away message on my email. So, if anyone emails me on our Sabbath, it sends an automatic reply that says, hey, thanks for your message. My family's resting. It has a little blurb in there about Sabbath. I'll get back to you in the new week.   That gives me permission to not even look at my email. In fact, people expect that I'm not looking at my email if I'm keeping my word. And so, this has just freed me up mentally to step away, and then I literally put my laptop in my closet.   With my phone, I set it to a Sabbath mode, and you can create these different focus modes if you have a smartphone, so that I can only receive messages from my mom in case of emergency. And our people, our friends, they all know this now. Like, oh, I'm not going to hear back from Erin because it's Saturday for the most part.   And so, these little things that you might just need to mentally prepare yourself. And then physically, that goes back to preparing our home. So, this is not a deep clean that we do prior to Sabbath. It's just tending to the things that are going to distract me if we don't get to them beforehand. So, again, washing all the dishes and having the kitchen clean, vacuuming. Like, that's like just a hack to make the house feel clean is I feel like it's clean if it's vacuumed.   So, just these little things, and then physically also doing that grocery order. And I have a free Sabbath guide on my website, erinlynum.com/family-sabbath. And it walks you through creating your Sabbath grocery list so that every week you have what you need in the house. These little things that truly make it, Sabbath easier and more successful.   And then preparing spiritually, going into this, like a lot of times I'll know, okay, I'm going to study this on Sabbath. For our first year, I just had like this stack of books on Sabbath that I would work through on our Sabbath. Right now, I am parked in Genesis 1 and have been for weeks. And so, just preparing spiritually, you know, this is a time of communion with our creator, with our heavenly father. And so, just having an idea of, you know, this is how I want to spend time delighting in God on the Sabbath.   That might be a long walk. That might be time in the word or time of worship but making sure that that is a keystone part of your Sabbath practice.   Laura Dugger: (41:20 - 41:45) And, you know, it really is possible. I just think so many of us celebrate holidays and we do the same thing where we plan, prepare, prioritize ahead of time so that we can delight in that day. And what a gift to get to do that weekly. So, with all of these amazing benefits, why do we still resist God's design for rest?   Eryn Lynum: (41:46 - 43:00) Because we live in a fallen world, broken by sin, and the enemy wants to do everything he can to keep us from this. This is God's design and our faith, and our souls and our families flourish in this design. And so, the enemy is going to do whatever he can to keep us from it.   He's going to insert fear. He's going to insert distraction. He's going to insert doubt. You know, when we started this practice coming up to it, I was thinking, there's no way, like how are we going to get everything done in one last day a week, all these doubts. And yet what we found so quickly is that as we took this step of faith, we quickly became so much more productive and effective and creative during the work week, because we were starting from rest and following God's design.   We resist this because it is counter-cultural. Everything in society is set up against us doing this and succeeding in this. So, again, going and knowing that our war is not against flesh and blood. It is against the powers of the spheres, like things unseen. The enemy is against us, but God is on our side. And as we step into his design, he's going to make much of it.   Laura Dugger: (43:01 - 43:12) Okay. So, if we are convinced and we want to give this a try, what is a practical first step to just obeying this and receiving this gift of rest?   Eryn Lynum: (43:13 - 45:23) Yeah, super practical here. Two first steps. The first is to set a day and time. Now you're not committing to this forever. And again, if you, if a big hesitancy here is I can't do a full day. Okay. Work and pray toward that but start smaller. If it's four hours on a Wednesday, guard that time. Ruthlessly guard it. Don't let anything be written on the schedule besides that.   So, set a day in time and then write two lists. This is going back to the idea of stop and delight, right? Your stop list. These are things that send you into hurry and hustle mode, things that are related to normal work, things that feel heavy. Some of them are so important.   Again, our work is important, but this is going to be things like devices, media, regular work, answering emails, phone calls. It might be driving in traffic. It might be spending money. Write down those things that feel heavy. That's your stop list. The things you're not going to entertain on that day or that time.   And then write your delight list. This might be hard at first because what I've found with myself, with many of us is that we forget what we delight in but causes that childlike sense of play and wonder. This is learning to be human again, coming back to those things.   So, it might be playing music or listening to music, working with fresh ingredients, reading a good book, writing by hand, watercolor painting, going for a walk. What we find is that a lot of people who spend time during the week in front of a computer want to be outdoors on the Sabbath, but people who run a landscaping company might want to be inside with a great book. So, just writing down those things that are, again, those things that you think during the week, oh, I really wish I could get to that.   Only we don't. Those are your delight list. So, now you have a day and a time. You know what you're not going to do, what you're setting aside, even physically, that should probably most definitely be your phone. Stick it in a drawer. I have my Sabbath drawer where I put my phone, and then you know what you're going to do and spend that day on.   Laura Dugger: (45:24 - 45:47) That's so good. And for those who have been listening for a while, they could even put their phone in their RO box, and I could link to that episode as well with Joey Odom. That's incredible about where our phone could be in its right place.   But Eryn, are there any other practical benefits that we might be missing out on that you've seen as a result of this Sabbath rest?   Eryn Lynum: (45:48 - 49:44) One of my favorite benefits is how it unlocks our creativity. Whether you work in a career or position that you consider creative or not, God designed all of us to be creative, to produce. And so, what I have found is that my work, my work is very in that creative sphere, writing books, creating podcast lessons for children.   It's very creative work. And I've found that Sabbath is this day where God gives my mind rest. It's so incredible thinking about how he wired our brains to thrive through rest, and science points to that that a restful mind is better at problem-solving, connecting ideas, remembering details.   And so, as my mind is allowed to rest on Sabbath, and I'm out on a walk in nature, or I'm reading a good book, or I'm writing by hand, when it comes time to sit down at the computer Monday morning, I am ready. I am flowing with ideas. They are there.   And I'll give you an example. This one isn't from Sabbath. It's from one of my daily rest rhythms that I call Selah Pause, and that's a walk in the morning. And this might be a little controversial, but this is not an easy stroll. I have my rucking pack on, and I'm trekking up a hill, which is not physically restful, of course, but it's mentally restful for me. I love it.   And so, it was in January, so it's frigid out, and everything's covered in snow, and I'm in all my snow gear, and I'm trudging up this hill. And at the time, I was dealing with a problem in my podcast where it was a good problem. We had spent the month teaching about God's designs in the human body. So, we had taught kids about God's designs in cells and DNA and the heart and the brain, but I didn't want to just let this series end. I wanted to wrap it up in some powerful way, and I didn't know how. So, I could have stayed home that morning and hashed this out and been at the computer, and how should I end this thing?   Instead, I went on this walk, and God just dropped this idea in my mind. And it was this idea. He said, ask the kids how they are wonderfully made. And that was the top. The theme was wonderfully made. And so, I put it out there to my email list. When I got back from that walk, I said, hey, I would love to hear how you kids believe you are wonderfully made by the creator. And I opened up this little voice mailbox on our website, and I didn't know if anyone would respond. And then I'm like, what if they don't? And then I don't know what to do because I said I'm going to do this thing.   I tell you, message after message came in from children from ages. I think it was three or four up to 14 from all over the world. And I was weeping as I edited that episode. I had planned to add something at the beginning and the end to build out this episode. I didn't do that because it was, I believe it's 22 minutes straight of children saying, this is my name.   I'm five years old. I live in England and I'm wonderfully made because God made me to read well or God made me fast. Or one little boy shared, he said, I know I'm wonderfully made because my mama lost a baby before me. And I'm here and I'm wonderfully made. And I'm weeping.   And this idea that God gave me, I would have missed it if I hadn't taken that pause to be out in his creation walking that day. And so, that's a very roundabout way to get back to your question of what are the other benefits? We hear from God when we make time for rest. And if we keep just rushing and hurrying, I'm concerned that we are walking by so many opportunities to hear from his spirit and to let him unlock that potential within us.   Laura Dugger: (49:45 - 50:22) Oh, I love that. And I'm even reminded of one other thing that you write in your book that today, one way we can practically experience his original design of rest is by stepping outside. And you're full of tips and ideas like that, but I so appreciate those stories.   So, you've equipped us with this foundation of rest and ways that we can prepare for it, how we can enjoy and delight in it. And so now, Eryn, how can we reflect well on our rhythms of work and rest?   Eryn Lynum: (50:25 - 53:19) So, much of this is reflection. So, much of this is stopping to consider where God is at work in our lives, where we need to recalibrate, where we need to realign, where we need to step back into his pace because we're trying to run ahead of him. And one way that we can see it, you know, like you might ask the question, am I at rest? Even me sometimes on Sabbath, I'm like, am I doing this right? Like, is this actually restful? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing?   I think we can answer that question by the fruit in our lives, the fruit inside of us that God is producing and the fruit that we are producing. So, one thing I kind of sum up the book on is this question of, are you growing in truth and love? Because the enemy, when he gets us away from God's rest and into hustle, into distraction and hurry, we are not fully experiencing God.   And so, our levels of experiencing his love and offering it to others is going to suffer. Our experience of hearing his truth and living that truth out in our lives is going to suffer. And so, the opposite is true that as we live at rest, this whole concept of abide, that is living at rest, not just these rest practices, but living at rest in God's restful presence, we are going to be producing more love and more truth.   So, that's like a key visual. And then I love on that idea of abide. We spent a whole week on abide in the book and, you know, John chapter 15 being the abide passage. And what we see there is there's these 11 mentions of that word abide. And they all refer to us abiding in Christ, Christ abiding in us, God's word abiding in us. So, all this connectivity between Christ and God and us and his word.   But then it's, I think it's verse 16. There's a different mention of meno, abide. And it says that he wants us to go out and produce fruit that abides. So, this is different. It relates to our fruit and that word abide. Yes, it can mean dwell, remain, stay, but it can also mean continue and endure.   God created us to produce fruit and fruit that endures. Doesn't rot, doesn't fade, but continues into eternity. So, we can look at, okay, am I personally in my spirit? Am I growing in truth and love? Because God's spirit actually has the space to minister to me when I rest. And is that rest directly affecting the fruit of my life?   These are key things that we can look at and ask to see. Are we truly living from God's rest?   Laura Dugger: (53:19 - 53:53) I love questions so much. And that's so good to reflect then on the fruit that's being produced. And a mentor many years ago said, you never reap what you sow in the same season. So, that's a great place to even begin just reflecting. What did we do in the past season and what fruit are we reaping now? And where do we want to go then from here?   And one place we could go from here after this chat is to follow you. And you've mentioned your podcast. Do you want to elaborate on all the places that you're available?   Eryn Lynum: (53:54 - 55:03) Yes, thank you. So, the new book, The Nature of Rest is available wherever you get your books, along with my second book, Rooted in Wonder: Nurturing Your Family's Faith Through God's Creation. And that's all about taking our kids or grandkids, the next generation outside and reconnecting the dots between creation and creator. Really returning nature study and time outdoors to its proper place as theology and the study of God.   So, those are available anywhere, including Amazon or my website, which is my name, erynlynum.com. And then my podcast is Nat Theo, short for Natural Theology. It's nature lessons rooted in the Bible. It's a podcast for kids and families where we dive deep into science and all the design and intelligence we see in creatures and plants. And we tie it all back to biblical truth so that our kids are learning science and theology at the same time.   And that's available on any podcast platform, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, right on my website, erinlynum.com, as well as YouTube. We actually provide visuals so you can watch what you're learning about as well.   Laura Dugger: (55:04 - 55:22) So, incredible. We will add links to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Eryn, you may already be familiar. We're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Eryn Lynum: (55:24 - 56:34) I love this question. And this is one that actually I was like, oh, I'm not asked this much. I'm going to have to really think deeply on this one.   It's get outside every day. That seems so simple, even though it's not really simple in practicality. But one thing I've learned through rest and through time outdoors is that 10 minutes matters. Like if you think I don't have time for this, but you have a 10 minute slot, go for a walk and see how God just communes with your spirit. Even in the dead of winter, if you live somewhere cold, like if it's safe to do so. For me, I had to buy like the best pair of snow pants I could find because I used to really dislike the winter. And I would just become like really down in those winter months.   And so, God just convinced me, don't go outside every single day if it's for 10 minutes. And then pretty often he just extends that. Like I think I'm going out for 10 minutes. And sure enough, I'm like playing with my kids outside. It's much longer.   But yeah, as best as you can, just prioritize that. If you have to do it first thing in the morning to make sure it happens, go for a walk and watch the sunrise. And God is going to minister to your soul through his creation.   Laura Dugger: (56:35 - 56:54) Amen. Amen. That is so good.   And this conversation has been so rich. Eryn, it is just very clear you have filled up on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you have just poured out goodness and love and truth for all of us, all over all of us today. So, thank you for all that you shared. And thank you for being my guest.   Eryn Lynum: (56:55 - 57:03) Thank you. Thank you so much for that encouragement. That means a whole lot to me. So, thank you. And for the opportunity for a great conversation.   Laura Dugger: (57:03 - 1:03:10) I really enjoyed it.    One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

This is a Grave Talks CLASSIC EPISODE!Listeners of Real Ghost Stories Online may already know him as “Eric from Central Illinois.” Over the years, Eric Vogel has shared some unforgettable stories—but until now, he's never sat down to tell them all in one place.We explore Eric's most personal and compelling paranormal encounters. His journey began with a near-death experience in childhood—an event that would quietly ignite a lifelong fascination with the supernatural. From there, the encounters only intensified.Eric recounts spine-chilling EVPs captured during ghost tours, moments of undeniable presence, and experiences that blur the line between the eerie and the deeply emotional. Not every encounter was frightening—some were comforting, meaningful, and unexpectedly profound.This conversation dives into what it's like when the paranormal isn't just something you listen to—but something that follows you, shapes you, and stays with you for life. This is Part Two of our conversation.#TheGraveTalks #RealGhostStoriesOnline #TrueParanormal #EVPs #Paranormal #Psychic #NearDeathExperience #ParanormalPodcast #GhostEncounters #SpiritWorldLove real ghost stories? Don't just listen—join us on YouTube and be part of the largest community of real paranormal encounters anywhere. Subscribe now and never miss a chilling new story:

This is a Grave Talks CLASSIC EPISODE!Listeners of Real Ghost Stories Online may already know him as “Eric from Central Illinois.” Over the years, Eric Vogel has shared some unforgettable stories—but until now, he's never sat down to tell them all in one place.We explore Eric's most personal and compelling paranormal encounters. His journey began with a near-death experience in childhood—an event that would quietly ignite a lifelong fascination with the supernatural. From there, the encounters only intensified.Eric recounts spine-chilling EVPs captured during ghost tours, moments of undeniable presence, and experiences that blur the line between the eerie and the deeply emotional. Not every encounter was frightening—some were comforting, meaningful, and unexpectedly profound.This conversation dives into what it's like when the paranormal isn't just something you listen to—but something that follows you, shapes you, and stays with you for life.#TheGraveTalks #RealGhostStoriesOnline #TrueParanormal #EVPs #Paranormal #Psychic #NearDeathExperience #ParanormalPodcast #GhostEncounters #SpiritWorld Love real ghost stories? Don't just listen—join us on YouTube and be part of the largest community of real paranormal encounters anywhere. Subscribe now and never miss a chilling new story: