Podcast appearances and mentions of christ jesus ephesians

267. Apologetics with Ray Comfort   Acts 4:20 NKJV "For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.”   **Transcription Below**   Ray Comfort is a best selling author - having written over 100 books, including his most recent one, entitled Fifty Years of Open-Air Preaching: Everything I've Learned. He is a cohost of an award-winning television show that airs in 190 countries.   Living Waters Website Living Waters YouTube Channel   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are some memorable encounters you've had over the years as an open-air preacher? What fears do you notice holding believers back from evangelizing? What's an easy win or next step we can take today so that the inspiration from this conversation turns into action?   Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: School Series (Legal) Gospel Sharing During School Hours with Joel Penton Stories Series: Faith Building Miracles with Dave Pridemore Stories Series: Testify to Glorify with Richard Gamble   Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka   Connect with The Savvy Sauce Facebook, Instagram or Our Website    Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:18) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.    I'm delighted with this opportunity to interview my special guest for today, Mr. Ray Comfort. Ray is a best-selling author of over 100 books, one of which we'll be discussing today, about 50 years of open-air preaching.   He's also a co-host of an award-winning television show that airs in over 190 countries around the world. So, I'm pleased to welcome Ray Comfort and get to hear all of his stories and inspiration. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Ray.   Ray Comfort: (1:19 - 1:27) Well, thank you for having me. Can you explain Savvy Sauce to me? Absolutely.   That means knowledge, knowledge poured out.   Laura Dugger: (1:27 - 1:46) Well, savvy is synonymous with practical or insight. And my husband having a background in Chick-fil-A, people always talk about the Chick-fil-A sauce or the secret sauce. And so, when we were creating this podcast, that just became the favorite question that I wanted to ask every guest.   Ray Comfort: (1:47 - 1:50) Oh, that's great. Yeah, it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me on.   Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 2:00) It's truly my pleasure. And I just love how everybody has a unique testimony. So, would you be willing to share your salvation story with us?   Ray Comfort: (2:01 - 4:47) Yeah, sure. I came from a non-Christian background. My mother was Jewish.   My dad was Gentile. And when my mom met my dad, it caused problems in the family. So, they brought me up with no Christian instruction or any instruction whatsoever.   Until at the age of 10, an aunt taught me the Lord's Prayer, which I prayed every night for 10 years. I believed in God. And at the age of about 20, 21, I had an epiphany, just a revelation that I was part of the ultimate statistic.   10 out of 10 die. And I thought, this is ridiculous. We're all waiting around to die.   And you can have fun while you're dying. You can play sports or save money. And I'd achieved everything I wanted to achieve by the age of 21.   I had my own business and my own house, my own wife. I'd made one child by then. Everything material I could want.   And I remember one night just going to sleep, or my wife had gone to sleep just before I went to sleep. I looked at my wife, we're newly married, and I just wept at the thought of her dying. And I just cried out, why?   Why is this thing called death? It's like there's an elephant in the room stomping on all humanity and nobody talks about it. And so, I cried out, why?   I didn't know I was praying. I didn't know God heard. And six months later, I was on a surfing trip, and there was a young Christian guy there, and he had a Bible, and I remember reading parts of it.   And my eyes fell upon, you've heard it said, by them of old you shall not commit adultery. And I thought, well, if there is a heaven, I'll make it there because I've never committed adultery. But then I read the words of Jesus, but I say to you, whoever looks upon a woman to lust for her has committed adultery already with her in his heart.   And it was like an arrow went into my chest. And I thought, whoa, boy, am I undone. Because like every red-blooded male, I was filled with unlawful sexual desire and eyes full of adultery, as scripture says.   And that's when I understood the cross. I realized I had sinned. Jesus bore my sin.   And we broke the law, the commandments. Jesus paid the fine. And that meant God could forgive my sins, grant me everlasting life.   And I cannot express to you the joy, it was unspeakable, that's why I can't express it, that I had and the knowledge my sins were forgiven. It was like an explosion of gratitude filled my heart. And for the last 50 years, it's been the high-octane fuel that's driven me to live for God's will and honor.   So everywhere I go and everything I do is centered around sharing the gospel with unsaved people. And every Christian should be like that. I call myself a normal, biblical Christian.   Laura Dugger: (4:48 - 4:59) I love that. Well, and something that you speak about and that you live out is open-air preaching. And I just want to read a piece from the dedication page, if that's okay.   Ray Comfort: (5:01 - 5:03) So, make sure you speak in a New Zealand accent.   Laura Dugger: (5:03 - 5:28) Oh, goodness. I won't even attempt. But you define open-air preaching saying, going somewhere I don't want to go, to preach a message I don't want to preach, to people who don't want to hear it, but the love of Christ compels me.   And so, Ray, what was your journey to becoming an open-air preacher?   Ray Comfort: (5:30 - 9:18) Well, I'll go back to when I was 16. I was in high school, and the teacher had the bright idea to have class speeches. And I was horrified at the thought of class speeches.   Have to get up and make a speech? Because I was kind of introverted, and the day came when I got caught. I used to stay away when they had class speeches, but my name was left on the roster, and it was last.   And the teacher got me up, and I thought I'll speak on the subject of surfing because I just loved surfing. And I dried up in the middle of that speech. My heart just went thump, thump, thump, thump till I could hardly hear.   It was like a drum beating, and I couldn't think straight. And I sat down humiliated in front of my peers at the age of 16, which is huge. And I vowed never, ever to speak in public again.   But I got born again. I became a new person in Christ. And I had a message that I could not be quiet about.   And I remember one day I was on a bus going to the city, and I remember looking at the people that were sitting on the bus, and I thought most of them probably not Christians. They die. They're going to Hell.   I've found everlasting life. I should stand up and speak to them. And I thought the bus would stop, and a whole lot of them would throw me off.   And I thought, what do I do? And I remember praying, oh, God, if there's just some way where I could speak in public to people knowing there wasn't. And two weeks later, they legalized public speaking in our city through just strange circumstances.   And I thought, whoa, what an answer to prayer. Horrors. And I remember avoiding any thought of going into that speaker's corner for the next two weeks until I opened a newspaper.   Remember what newspapers were? I opened a newspaper and had a picture of an elderly lady with a Bible in her hand, and underneath it had the Bible lady sharing her Christian testimony in speaker's corner. And I felt so ashamed that here was an elderly lady, and here I was hiding like Jonah.   So, I went in, took a deep breath, and preached the gospel to a crowd that was standing or sitting there. And I went back about 3,000 times and commuted to it for about 12 years, almost daily for 12 years. So, I broke the sound barrier, and I've been doing it ever since.   And I'll tell you why I do it, because the average church wouldn't reach as many people in a year as a good open-air preacher can reach in 30 minutes. And you just have to learn how to draw a crowd and what to say, and you've got to have the will to say it. And if you're a Christian and you've found everlasting life, you should be saying with the disciples, I cannot but speak that which I've seen and heard.   And I'm so glad the disciples didn't stay in the upper room. They found everlasting life. God granted eternal life.   They didn't carpet out the room, put in pipe music, with a little notice outside their door, tonight, 7 o'clock, all welcome. They didn't do that, because they knew fish don't jump into the boat. That's not normal.   If you're a fisher of men, you've got to go where the fish are. So, they went open-air and preached. And as you read the book of Acts, that's all they did.   They preached open air at peril of their lives. And so if we want to walk in the steps of Jesus, in the steps of the disciples, in the steps of Spurgeon, Wesley, Moody, Whitfield, others down through the ages, then we've got to open our mouths and lift up our voice like a trumpet and show these people their transgression. And so, I am thrilled that you want to do an interview on this book, because I've often said the church has as much excitement about evangelism as you and I have about having a root canal.   It's not exciting. But we all have fears, and we can learn to overcome them.   Laura Dugger: (9:18 - 9:38) Ray, you make already such a compelling argument for why we as Christians are called to evangelize and deliver the good news and specifically calling it as open-air preachers. So, will you still share a few more arguments or reasons to try and help people understand why this is of utmost importance?   Ray Comfort: (9:39 - 10:47) Yes, we have a moral obligation. We're like doctors with a cure to cancer. We must speak, as the disciples said.   And if you've got fear, let me ask you a question. Could you jump into a pond that had big chunks of ice in it? It was so cold that you would die if you stayed in it for three minutes.   And most people say, no, no, you wouldn't get me jumping into that pond for anything. Let's say a four-year-old boy fell into that pond and his feet couldn't reach the bottom, and he began to drown. You wouldn't hesitate.   You'd just jump in. You wouldn't worry about how cold it was. Grab that kid and pull him out.   And the waters of personal evangelism are freezing. Ice cold. We're not excited about it.   Last thing we ever want to do is get involved in something like this. But love cannot but do something. Love couldn't stand there and watch a child drown.   And love cannot sit on a pew while sinners sink into Hell. So, if you've got problems with fear, don't pray for less fear. Pray for more love because that's the problem.   Laura Dugger: (10:48 - 11:02) Ray, I'm curious. You seem so confident and comfortable with this, but clearly you've been doing it, like you said, for many years. So, was there fear at the beginning for you?   And is there still fear when you do this today?   Ray Comfort: (11:03 - 18:09) No, there wasn't fear at the beginning. Fear is here. Terror is here.   Mortification is here. I was up there somewhere. So, the first time I did it was terrifying.   Second time wasn't quite so terrifying. But after all these years, I still battle fear, always. Every person I got a witness to on a one-to-one basis looks like Goliath.   It goes from a Zacchaeus to a Goliath in a split second. I think a witness to that guy, he's anti-Christian. I can see it by the look on his jawline.   He hates Christians. Can't wait to get his fingers around the neck of any Christian because I've got overripe imagination. I remember once I was driving my car and I saw a dead dog on the road about 100 yards ahead of me and it was such a sad sight.   I could see its head was all twisted back and I could see its ears. It was a German shepherd. And as I got up to it, it was someone's jacket that had fallen off his bike.   That's all. And I just had an overripe imagination. And that's exactly what it's like when it comes to fear.   I have an imagination that some guy's going to kill me if I share the gospel with him. So, I've learned to not listen when fear speaks. I've learned to think about the fate of the person rather than myself.   I mean, think of a firefighter. He arrives at a fire, and he looks up and he has to climb a 60-foot ladder. At the top of the ladder is a woman and two children leaning out of a window and the place is on fire.   It's the fifth story. And they're screaming because they're going to be burned alive in about three minutes. So, he's got to climb that ladder amidst the screaming, amidst the smoke and the sirens.   He could drop one of those kids. He could drop that woman. And so, would he rather be at home with his wife and kids watching an old black-and-white movie?   Of course. Is he terrified? Absolutely.   But he doesn't listen to his fears because of this one fact. He's not thinking of himself. He's thinking of that woman and her terrible fate and those kids.   And that's the key to overcoming fear. When I get my fears, I don't listen because I'm not thinking of myself and my silly little fears, my imagination. I'm thinking of this person and their terrible fate, that they die in their sins.   Lake of fire. Damned. If you think death is fearful on this side, wait till the other side.   It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. And the apostle Paul said, Wherefore, knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men. So, if you've got a wrong image of God, it's kind of like a Santa Claus sitting in a cloud.   You won't have a terror in your heart. You won't fear God enough to obey him. You know, Jesus said, “Why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I tell you?”   And so, if we are submitted to Christ, if we yield to him, if he's our Lord, when he says, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” We go. He didn't say to stay. Think of what he said.   Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. I've actually studied the original Greek words of the word all, every, and go. Go actually means in the original, I think it's passe.   The original Greek, it actually means go. Into all the world and all the world. That word all means all in the original Greek.   And to every creature means every creature. So, when Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature”, in the original Greek, he actually was saying, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” So, we're so fortunate to have Greek lexicons and things that we can go back and see what Jesus was actually saying.   And so, it's very simple. We shouldn't stay. We shouldn't want to fill our churches with people when they come in, where to go out and get them.   And one of the most effective ways is with open air preaching. And so, we teach people how to get a crowd. Now, when I first started speaking, I would begin open air preaching with an anecdote, something very gripping.   And it was always difficult because if I didn't live up to that, I didn't get a crowd. And so, for about four or five or six years, it was very difficult. And then I started asking trivia and giving away money.   And I've been doing that for 30, 40 years, where you say to a crowd, I've got some trivia questions, giving away money. And a preacher giving away money is like water running uphill. It's kind of unnatural, so it gets people's attention.   So, I'm going to ask trivia questions. I've got money here to give away. When you get it right. What's the capital of France? Anyone know?    And someone says, “Paris?” That's right.   Here you are. What's the capital of China? Beijing or whatever it is.   Give out a dollar. Say, “What's your name?” Fred.   That's right. And you give Fred a dollar and people laugh, and they gather around and it's just a great way to get rapport with a crowd. And while you're doing that, you look around to see who's got confidence.   This guy over here, or Fred, laughs when I say, “Here's a dollar, and he yells out answers.” I say, “Fred, you want to go for $5?” He says, “Sure.”   So, jump up on the box. So, we've got a box for the hecklers. So, you think you're a good person?   He says, “Yeah, I'm a really good person.” So, if you are, you get $5. If you're not, give me $5 anyway.   Just being a good sport. So, we're going to go through the Ten Commandments to see how you're going to do on Judgment Day and if you are a good person. Let me take him through the commandments as Jesus did with the rich young ruler.   How many lies have you told? Ever stole something? Ever used God's name in vain?   Ever looked at women with lust? And Fred says, “Yeah, I've done all those.” So, Fred, you've just told me you're a lying thief, a blasphemer, and an adulterer at heart.   And you have to face God on Judgment Day. You're going to be innocent or guilty? He says, “Guilty.”   Heaven or Hell? Hell. Does that concern you?   Yeah, sure it does. And the crowd's listening. It's not some sweaty preacher pointing a finger at them.   They're just listening to the gospel. And so, it's a great way. And then you go into that Christ died for our sins, took our punishment.   And Fred, “Thanks for listening. I really appreciate this. Here's your dollar.”   I've got a book for you that I wrote. I hope you enjoy it. Nice to meet you.   He shook his hand. He's off. Anyone else, like any atheists here, never be intimidated by an atheist.   Atheism is the epitome of stupidity. It's just so dumb. Every time I meet an atheist, I ask him one question, and I've seen so many atheists backslide when they've heard this.   I say, “Do you really believe the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything? Puppies and kittens and flowers and seeds and the marvels of the human eye and the miracle of childbirth. All this happened because nothing created it. Do you really believe that?”    They say, “Oh, no, I don't believe that. Oh, there was something in the beginning.”   I say, “Oh, it just wasn't God. Is that it?” Yeah, that's it.   It was something, but it wasn't God. Well, let's see if we can find out why you don't want it to be God. When did you last look at pornography?   I say, “Oh, it was last night. What do you think God thinks of that?” And you realize the issue isn't intellectual.   It's moral. They're running from God like Adam, hiding behind bushes. And so, you've just got to flush them out and then use the Ten Commandments to bring the knowledge of sin and address the conscience rather than the intellect.   Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, Washington, and Canton, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. 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Renters may be excited to learn about their flexible leases, pet-friendly locations, and even mini-storage units available in some locations.   Leman Property Management Company has a knowledgeable and helpful staff including several employees with over 30 years working with this reputable company. If you want to become a part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department, so we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them.   Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com. That's L-E-M-A-N-P-R-O-P-E-R-T-Y. Check them out and find your place to call home today.    As you've done this, what has been your experience along the way? And would you even share a few stories of times that this has gone miraculously well and times that have been such a struggle?   Ray Comfort: (20:19 - 30:16) It's always a struggle. But let me share the two great keys that I use when it comes to evangelism. I don't even like using the word evangelism because it scares Christians.   Apologetics. And that is this. I address the conscience, as Jesus did.   When you're in apologetics, and I believe in apologetics, we've got what's called the Evidence Study Bible, which is pregnant with apologetics. So, I believe in apologetics, but they have their place. Apologetics are like bait when you're fishing for men.   If you stay with bait, you're going to end up with fat, happy fish that get away. You've got to have a hook, and that hook is God's law. So, you bait the hook.   And so, it's important if you bait the hook with apologetics and address the intellect to realize this one fact. Romans 8:7 says, “The carnal mind is enmity against God, for it's not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” What does that mean?   It means the carnal, natural mind of man is in a state of hostility towards God, particularly His law. It's not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. And you can see this enmity by the fact that human beings lavished with life by God use His name as a cuss word, and the name of Jesus as a cuss word.   Nobody in history has had their name used as a cuss word except Jesus, Jesus Christ, and God. And that shows the enmity they have towards their Creator because they're criminals. And as criminals hate the police, so sinners hate God without cause.   So, you want to move away from the carnal mind because you're going to get enmity. If you say, “Look, I'm going to show you that Noah did build an ark. I'm going to prove it to you there was a big flood.” And so you go through the whole thing that the ark was really big and the animals were small and it could have happened. Then we've got oceans and that's evidence that the earth was flooded. You get this guy who was a skeptic who'd say, “Okay, I believe there was a big flood and Noah could have built an ark.”   Well, great. Now you've got a mountain to climb of Jonah being swallowed by a big fish. Children of Israel shouting and walls coming down when they shout.   Balaam's donkey speaking with a man's voice. Samson with strength in his hair. And you've got all these stories, and they're all an intellectual thing, and they're like a mountain you've got to climb to convince them to believe there's an easier way.   And the early Christians didn't try and convince anyone the Bible is the word of God because they didn't have a New Testament. There was no printing press. No one could read or hardly anyone could read.   Now they just preached the gospel, and you do it not by going for the intellect and trying to intellectually convince someone that God exists or the Bible's the word of God. You do what Jesus did with a rich young ruler. You address the conscience with the commandments.   You shall not lie, shall not steal, shall not commit adultery. It's all written on the heart of man. Conscience means knowledge.   So that knowledge is there. So, the commandments echo the truth, or the conscience echoes the truth of the commandments. When Paul used the commandments in Romans chapter 2, you who say you shall not steal, do you steal?   You say, “You shall not commit adultery; do you commit adultery?” He was addressing the conscience. Romans 2:15, same chapter, would show the work of the law written on their hearts, the conscience bearing witness.   So, I have an ally right in the heart of the enemy. I have a judge on the court and in the mind of every sinner that's going to affirm the truth of what I'm saying and point guilt to the sinner or show him that he's guilty. That's the conscience.   The second great tool I have or weapon I have is the will to live. Human beings are not dogs, horses, cats, or cows. We're completely different.   We're not primates. We're made in the image of God and God has written eternity upon our hearts. He doesn't seem to have done this with my dog.   My dog's only concerned with chasing cats and eating. I don't think there's anything else that really interests her, although I love her, but she's not worrying about eternity, but human beings do. So, I know, according to scripture, that everybody has this will to live.   So, when I go to the local college, and I go there twice a day, to interview people for our YouTube channel. I often say this, “Would you like to go on YouTube?” They say, “Yeah.”   I'm going to ask you, “If you think there's life after death.” I say, “That's okay, and this is my first question. Are you afraid of dying?”   And they go, “A little bit.” A little bit? It's huge.   It's a tormenting fear of death. It haunts you, and that's what the Bible says, this fear of death that we have. And I can tell by the look in the eyes of this person, they're saying, “How did this guy know?”   I haven't told mom or dad. I haven't told my boyfriend or my girlfriend, my brother, my sister, but there's something in me that's terrified of dying. Hebrews 2:14-15 tells us.   Amplified Bible, so I'll quote it a little louder. It says, “That God has caused the fear of death or the will to live to be haunting,” it uses the word haunting, “within every human being all their lifetime.” Remember when I was a kid, maybe nine or ten, I used to play wars, cowboys and Indians, and someone would shoot me. I'd roll down a hill and lie there for two minutes and then get up.   And then one day as I got older, I thought, I'm not going to get up one day. And that's that haunting fear of death. That revelation that comes to us, as light comes to us, as we get older. And so, I address that, and this is what I say, “Ever read the Bible?”    “No, never opened it.”    “Why not? It's the world's biggest selling book of all time. Did you know in the Old Testament, God promised he would destroy death? And in the New Testament, we're told how he did it. Did you know that?”    They say, “No.”    “Is he interested?”   And even if it's an atheist, he's going to say, “Yeah, I'm interested.” Because he's got that haunting fear of death. And so, then I go through the gospel. This is the verse that I share with so many people, and it's the most illuminating verse, and I can see light coming to them as I say this.   I say, “Have you ever heard the Bible verse, the wages of sin is death?” And they say, “Maybe.” It's saying that God is paying you in death for your sins.   Like a judge who looks at a criminal who's committed murder, but he thinks he's a good person. The judge says, “I'm going to show you how serious your crime is. I'm giving you the death sentence.”   This is your wages. This is what you've earned. And I say, “Fred, sin is so serious to a holy God, he's given you the death sentence.”   You're on death row. You're in a holding cell. It's got a nice blue roof, good air conditioning, good lighting, but this life is a holding cell, and your death will be evidence to you that God is deadly serious about sin.   That has a sobering effect on people because now they've got a reason why they die. Now they know what's going to happen after they die. It's appointed a man.   It's appointment. It's appointed a man who wants to die, and after this, the judgment. And as you go through the commandments, it shows them how they need a Savior.   And so many people say, I'm going to really think about this. Thank you for talking to me. I say, “When are you going to repent and put your trust in Jesus?”   And so many people lately have been saying, “Today.” So, the pandemic, that plague that no one calls a plague, the pandemic did us a huge favor because it made a whole generation think about their mortality, made them realize they're going to die one day. And so, the harvest fields are white.   One other thought regarding the fear of death and the will to live, the same thing. Think of a waitress who has to approach three men, businessmen wearing dark suits and little briefcases sitting at a table. They're obviously wheeling and dealing millions of dollars.   Is she intimidated? No. She just walks up and says, “Can I take your order?”   Why is she so bold? It's because she knows she has what they want. They're there for food.   And so that makes her bold. And you and I have what this world wants. Right at this moment, there are people in torture chambers called gyms, lifting weights that are far too heavy for them, pulling things they shouldn't be pulling.   And I believe in physical fitness is great. And at the same time, there are people drinking green slime. They would love a chocolate shake, but they drink because they want to increase their life just that little bit more.   We have found everlasting life. So, if the world knew what we had, they would ask us. This is what Jesus said to the woman at the well.   If you knew who it was that was speaking to you, you would ask me. And if the world knew what we had, everlasting life, they'd plead with us. So, because we know we have what the world wants, like that waitress, we must be bold.   And when they realize that we have the answer to death that Jesus Christ has abolished death. When that revelation comes to them, what causes death. That Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, he destroyed death, bringing life and immortality to light through the gospel. That's when the light goes on and they say, “Thank you so much. Thank you for talking to me.” I've just about worn myself out.   Laura Dugger: (30:16 - 30:30) Well, that's incredible to hear, especially the breakdown practically of how you do that. And I would say, “Do you even give people permission to use some of those examples if they want to give this a try?”   Ray Comfort: (30:31 - 31:18) I would plead with them to do so. We've got the evidence Bible. It's filled with how to do these things.   And that book, Fifty Years of Open-Air Preaching: Everything I've Learned is filled with stuff like this. How to get a crowd standing up nice and orderly. There's a picture, I don't know if you can see it, at Berkeley University.   They're all standing around nice in a big circle. That's where you get stoned to death, Berkeley. But because we understand these principles, we just drew a circle out of chalk and said, stand behind the circle.   If anyone got in front of the circle, approached us, we wouldn't talk to them unless they got to the edge of the circle. And people are like sheep. If you say, “Move back behind the chalk line. Do it now.” Okay. They'll do it, if you've got a little bit of authority.   And so, you just learn to do things like that. And it means the gospel can go out. So yeah, please, please use these principles.   Laura Dugger: (31:19 - 31:34) And then can you also just paint a picture. If somebody's never seen this before, they've never tried this before, are there any memorable encounters that you've had as you reflect back on these years of open air preaching?   Ray Comfort: (31:35 - 33:54) Yes. Oh, I've got beaten up by a woman once. Oh dear.   I'll have to tell you. I was in Santa Monica many years ago, and I had a crowd of maybe 40, 50 people. And there's a woman there that was very vocal and kept calling me, using the F word a couple of times.   So, I said, “Ma'am, can you watch your language? There are ladies present.” And she said, “I'm a lady.”   I said, “Ma'am, you may be a woman, but you are not a lady.” And with that, she ran at me like a bat out of heaven and began beating me up. Now, most women go scratch, and hair pulling, but she was like Mike Tyson's sister. She got in six punches, knocked me to the ground before my team pulled her off.   They held her back. And she said, let me go and get my purse. They let her go.   And she gave me a kidney punch and took two weeks for the bruising to go, but she doubled my crowd. She can come back anytime she wants. But that was my fault.   And that was very memorable. So, I talk nicely to ladies now. One to one, one of the most memorable ones is a guy named Mario.   Our YouTube channel's got 1.57 million subscribers, just past 314 million views. And one of the best, most gripping encounters was with a guy named Mario. I went out on my bike.   My dog's on my bike. She's on a platform. She wears sunglasses.   I wear sunglasses. It gets people's attention. She's the best bait I've ever had when fishing for men.   Saw this guy standing by a tree on a pathway, and I said, “You want to come on camera?” He said, “Yeah.” I was surprised because I didn't have to talk him into it.   And he was quite arrogant, very handsome young man. And as we went through the commandments, I saw a tear well in his eye and roll down his cheek. And I thought, oh, no, God's doing a work in the heart of this guy, and I don't want to mess it up.   And so, I did my best to end up praying with him, and he was just beside himself in sorrow for his sin. And I think that's something like 4 million views on a YouTube channel. If you go to the most popular to see it, you'll see him there.   But that was a very memorable encounter. One that I often think when I'm going out on my bike each day. Lord, give me a Mario today, please.   Laura Dugger: (33:55 - 34:58) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?   Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.   Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share.   We appreciate you. It's compelling to hear this and inspiring, but then also if we're going back to talking about the fears. What fears do you see holding people back from giving this a try or from evangelizing in general?   Ray Comfort: (34:59 - 37:37) That is a great question, and you provoke something very important. I've traveled on about 2,000 flights, itinerating over the years, and so many times I've prayed, and when there's an empty seat on a plane beside me, I always pray for the person who's going to sit there. This is the prayer I subliminally pray.   Lord, please don't let this guy show up. That's what I pray. And then he shows up, and I share the gospel with him.   My hardest, my biggest mountain to climb was how do you bring the subject up? Okay, I'm on a plane. This guy's a businessman.   He's wearing a three-piece suit. He's very intimidating, and I've got to talk to him about the things of God and sin and righteousness and judgment. How do I bring the subject up with this guy?   Oh, see those clouds? Guess who made the clouds? God.   No, it's just terrifying. But I learned something many years ago that just dissipated that fear of man and the fear of women, and that's this. I just say to any stranger, “Do you think there's an afterlife?”   That's a simple question. Do you think there's life after death? I haven't mentioned God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell, sin, righteousness, judgment, any of those things that make him feel uncomfortable.   I just said, do you think there's an afterlife? And this is how I do it, and I've done it many times. I'm at the ministry now in our studio.   Many a time I've had workmen come. Let's say there's a plumber working on something. I go up to him and say, “Hey, how are you doing?”   He says, “Good.” I'm Ray. What's your name?   He says, “Eric.” Nice to meet you, Eric. Eric, what?   I've got a question for you, “Do you think there's an afterlife?” Eric stands up and says, “I don't know.”   I say, “Do you think about it much?” Yeah, all the time. His all the time just dissipated my fears.   He's not antichrist. He hasn't stabbed me to death. He's a normal human being.   He thinks about the issues of life and death all the time. And so, I've got confidence. And the thing that got me in there was that question, do you think there's an afterlife?   You can ask anyone. Even Uncle Arthur at the Christmas lunch, sitting there and usually he's working. Uncle Arthur, do you think there's an afterlife? Haven't mentioned God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell. Just let him talk.   He says, “Oh, I don't know about heaven.” So Rich, “You ever read the Bible?” Oh, let me get you my Bible.   Let me lend it to you. It just opens the door and lets them do the talking. So never forget that.   You can talk to any stranger about the things of God by just asking that question. Do you think there's an afterlife? And I do it every day.   Laura Dugger: (37:38 - 37:57) Wow. And I love it, even before we began recording when we were just getting to know each other for a moment. And then you said, well, before we begin, shall we do this in the flesh, or should we pray?   And I love that. I think that's such an approachable first step to this.   Ray Comfort: (37:57 - 38:07) Well, you just have to do something in the flesh to know how terrible it is. You need a pulpit, and you think, oh God, I need your help. So, I always pray.   Laura Dugger: (38:08 - 38:24) Absolutely. That's very relatable. And so, if we're considering this invitation to evangelize publicly, what do you think this looks like for men and for women?   And do you see any difference between the two?   Ray Comfort: (38:25 - 39:21) Yes, I do. When I look at my wife, I see different from the local workman that comes to work around our home. But physically, no, I don't.   Yeah. When Jesus had gone to all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, he didn't say, “Oh, that's just for men.” No.   Look at the woman at the well. She went off and shared the gospel with the whole village. And so, if a woman's got the courage to stand up and do what men won't do, God bless her.   I think that's wonderful. And so, I'm all for women and women stay silent at the church. Well, that's for the church.   That's church discipline. But when it comes to sharing the gospel, telling people how they can find everlasting life, women can do just as well with men and a woman can do good with five people or 10 people. Now she can gather a crowd of 200 at a university and share how to find everlasting life.   God bless her. And thank you for her, Aud.   Laura Dugger: (39:22 - 39:35) Thank you for sharing that. And can you think of just an easy or approachable next step, something that we could do today that takes inspiration from this conversation and turns it into action?   Ray Comfort: (39:35 - 39:38) Yes. Get the book.   Laura Dugger: (39:40 - 39:41) Absolutely.   Ray Comfort: (39:41 - 39:48) And I'll watch our YouTube channel too. I love it. It'll really help you build confidence.   Thank you for that.   Laura Dugger: (39:49 - 40:01) My pleasure. So, if we do determine that we're going to apply what we've learned today, then there's another side to this as well. What kind of attack can we expect from our enemy?   Ray Comfort: (40:02 - 42:34) Oh, full on. You're going to get negative thoughts. You can't do this.   You shouldn't do this. What are you going to do if you dry up? The dry up thing is a real big fear.   I'm going to get up there and I'll say, “My mind's gone blank.” Well, just have a Gospel of John in your pocket, a little New Testament, maybe a little Gideon in your pocket there. And if you dry up, just say, “Oh, excuse me, I want to read this to you.”   You've got John 3:16, corner turned down. Just say, “For God so loved the world and gave his only begotten son who believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Please think about that.   Close it and get down. Or you can keep speaking. And so, if you've got an out, that will dissipate your fears if you know you can get out if that happens.   I've used it many a time. I mean the fear of every preacher is drying up in a pulpit. I remember I was in a church of 3,000 once and I lost my place.   So, you know what I did? I just said, look at that over there. And everyone looked at the wall.   I said, I just lost my place. Or I'll say something like this. “Turn to Leviticus 15:3.”   And everyone goes, shh, shh, shh. I look for my place. I've got my thoughts back.   And they say that was a fake scripture. I don't know what it is. I wanted to do something while I was trying to find my place.   And there I've never had problems drying up in the pulpit because I know that's my way out. And it's the same with open air preaching. If you dry up, you're just going to quote John 3:16 or begin reading Genesis chapter 1 to the crowd.   “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” And just knowing you've got that out will help dissipate your fears. And when you're finished, you'll have such a joy.   I say to our team, whenever you go to preach the gospel, you're dragging your feet. When you come back, you'll be clicking your heels.   And that's exactly what happens. You'll have such satisfaction that you did what you know you should. You overcame that Goliath.   You ran at Goliath and overcame your fears. And so just do it. If you want to learn to swim, you don't study water.   You jump in. That's the best way to learn to swim. And, you know, if you're going to drown, it's a pity more people don't know this, but if you just relax, you'll float.   If you panic, you'll probably sink. And it's the same with this. Don't panic.   Just trust in the Lord. Say, “Lord, you'll fill my mouth. You'll help me out with this.”   And he'll float. He'll float you. He'll take you by the hand, and you'll be fine.   I've done it thousands of times, and God's never let me down.   Laura Dugger: (42:36 - 43:00) Amen. I hope we all are willing to give it a try. I think that you really articulated it well when you narrow it down to that fear of man, fear of woman.   And I love also that just do it, and we can do it scared. But you're so full of these practical tips. There's one about hecklers that we haven't covered yet.   Can you share your perspective on hecklers?   Ray Comfort: (43:01 - 44:02) Hecklers are wonderful. If you fear hecklers, you're fearing the thing that could make what you're doing a great success. A good heckler, if he's handled well, can take a crowd of 15 people to 150 people in about 30, 40 seconds.   And all you do is let him vent. There's one, I think we've got, it's called The Angry Atheist. I think it's one of our videos.   And this guy was furious, a Christian. So, I just let him vent, and the crowd thickened up, and then we started one by one dealing with his problems. And just always remember a soft answer turns away wrath.   If someone's angry, you just speak, what's your name? And they'll say, “Oh, John.” Nice to meet you, John.   That's a nice sweater. I remember once a lady came up, this young lady. She was really angry, and I did say the sweater thing to her when she was yelling at me.   I said, “That's a nice sweater.” She said, “Really?” I said, “Where'd you get it?”   And so, a soft answer turns away wrath. So, you just learn these little things that can really help.   Laura Dugger: (44:03 - 44:14) I love that. And just as a model for us, if we want to share the good news of Jesus, you've done this time and time again. Will you share it with all of us now?   Ray Comfort: (44:16 - 46:05) What are you trying to do to me? You mean you'd like the gospel? Absolutely.   One-minute gospel presentation. Okay, let's do a nutshell. Let me say, I'm meeting a stranger.   I'll talk directly to them. You know, God's placed a will to live within you. Something in you says, I don't want to die.   Did you know the Bible says, “Jesus Christ has abolished death and brought life and immortality to life through the gospel?” And the reason you're going to die is because you've sinned against God. And all you have to do for a few minutes with an honest heart is go through the commandments.   The seventh commandment says, “You shall not commit adultery, but Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, you commit adultery in your heart, lying lips and abomination to the Lord. No thief will inherit God's kingdom.”    Ever stolen something? Ever used God's name in vain? And if you've been honest, you'll know you've sinned against God. And if all your sin comes out on Judgment Day as evidence of your guilt, you're going to end up justly in Hell, and that breaks my heart.   And God is not willing that any perish. The Bible says, “He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and he's provided a way for you to be forgiven by Christ dying on the cross.” We broke God's law.   Jesus paid the fine. It's as simple as that. That means you can leave the courtroom.   God can dismiss your case. He can take death off you because of what Jesus did through his death and resurrection. And all you have to do is so simple a child can understand it.   You must repent, turn from your sins. You'll never do that while you think you're a good person. And trust in Jesus like you trust a parachute.   The minute you do that, you've got God's promise, and he cannot lie. He'll grant you everlasting life as a free gift, not because you're good, but because He's good and kind and rich in mercy. And don't put it off until tomorrow because you may not have tomorrow.   Fifty-four million people die every year. Today, if you hear his voice, don't harden your heart.   Laura Dugger: (46:07 - 46:10) It just never gets old hearing that.   Ray Comfort: (46:10 - 46:10) No.   Laura Dugger: (46:10 - 46:28) Thank you. And you also bring up even so clearly from scripture but sharing repent and believe. And is there anything else that you would want to make sure that we wouldn't leave out of a conversation if we were evangelizing to someone?   Ray Comfort: (46:29 - 48:02) Well, another good question. Yeah, a lot of people are saying all you have to do is believe. Just believe.   They say if you repent, that's works. Well, by saying you have to believe, that's works. If you have to do anything, believe.   No, the Bible says, “By grace you're saved through faith, through faith, and not of yourselves.” It's God's grace that saves us. But if you read scripture, it comes through repentance and faith.   And the reason they want to drop repentance is because they don't see the true nature of sin. And what the commandments do, the Ten Commandments, they open up the law and show sin to be exceedingly sinful, and that necessitates repentance. Like with David, when he realized he'd committed adultery and lied and stolen his neighbor's wife, covered his neighbor's wife, murdered his neighbor, that's when he cried out, “Oh, have mercy upon me, oh God, according to your lovingkindness.”   If Nathan hadn't said, “Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord, and David hadn't said, I've sinned against heaven, he would have just said, oh, just believe. No, he had to get before God and agonize. Scripture says, “Cleanse your hands, you sinners.”   Purify your hearts, you double-minded. Let your laugh to be turned to mourning and your joy to heaviness.” That's contrition.   And the law that shows us the nature of sin produces contrition, sorrow for sin, which works repentance, godly sorrow, works repentance unto life. So, it's most necessary to preach, as Jesus did, repent and believe in that order.   Laura Dugger: (48:04 - 48:13) That is so good. Ray, where can we go to continue learning from you and continue to be inspired by the faithful work that you're doing?   Ray Comfort: (48:14 - 48:46) Very kind of you to say that. LivingWaters.com, sign up for our newsletter. We've always got interesting stuff.   We give away a lot of stuff. Watch the YouTube channel. We have different videos each day.   We put one up four days ago that's had 4.6 million views. And so, it's a wonderful way to reach the lost. So, follow us.   Just become part of a YouTube channel, subscribe, and that really helps us and helps further our reach. So LivingWaters.com and LivingWaters YouTube.   Laura Dugger: (48:47 - 49:05) Wonderful. We'll make sure to add those links in the show notes for today's episode. And as you already know, our podcast is entitled The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, Ray, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Ray Comfort: (49:06 - 49:12) My wife. Is that okay to say that?   Laura Dugger: (49:12 - 49:17) I love that. Do you want to say anything more specific about her?   Ray Comfort: (49:17 - 49:44) Sue and I have been married for 108 years, 54. We love each other. She's my best friend.   She works at the ministry and also I love my dog. And one thing I might say just as we close is don't call this anything to do with evangelism. That'll kill.   Use the word apologetics or say Ray Comfort says this about his wife. Anything other than evangelism that scares Christians off.   Laura Dugger: (49:45 - 49:50) Wow. Interesting. So that's been your experience.   That makes sense.   Ray Comfort: (49:51 - 50:25) Yeah. That's a principle we use at the ministry. If we have a conference, don't mention evangelism.   No one will come. It's like someone saying to me, “Hey, want to go door knocking, tell people about Jesus?” I go; I just wouldn't want to do that.   And there's a reason for it. As a new Christian, I knocked on someone's door, fully aware that Jehovah's Witnesses had stolen our thunder, and I said to this lady, “Hello, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness.” She said, “Well, I am.”   And so, I've got this aversion to door knocking, and that's what most Christians are like when it comes to evangelism. So, call it something else.   Laura Dugger: (50:25 - 50:50) Wow. So practical, again. And Ray, you've just stewarded your many gifts that God has given you.   You've stewarded them so well and so wisely. I can just imagine God greeting you someday and having just, well done, good and faithful servant. So, thank you for generously taking the time to share with us today.   I'm grateful for you, and I just want to say thank you for being my guest.   Ray Comfort: (50:51 - 50:52) Well, thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger: (50:53 - 54:35) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

266. Choosing Fun and Adventure in Your Marriage and with Your Family: An Interview with Dan & Sam Mathews   Isaiah 55:12 MSG “So you'll go out in joy, you'll be led into a whole and complete life. The mountains and hills will lead the parade, bursting with song. All the trees of the forest will join the procession, exuberant with applause. No more thistles, but giant sequoias, no more thornbushes, but stately pines— Monuments to me, to God, living and lasting evidence of God.”   *Transcription Below*   Dan and Sam Mathews have been married since 2014 and currently reside in Missouri with their two kids, Canyon and Ember. Since the moment they got married, Dan and Samantha have been living a life of sacrifice and faith. From backpacking in Arkansas to RV road trips across the US, they have always taken the adventurous route. Sam is a lifestyle vlogger and content creator, and Dan hosts a hunting podcast in addition to his social platforms. Together they share their life of adventure online with millions of followers. Follow them on socials @wearedanandsam.    Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are a few adventures you're so grateful you said yes to in life? Matthew 25:26 MSG says, "That's a terrible way to live! It's criminal to live cautiously like that!" So drawing your wisdom from the Lord, how does your faith fuel your sense of adventure?  How can we begin to enjoy an adventurous life in our marriage and with our family?   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce Podcast: 82 Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller 242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel     Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger:  (0:11 - 1:47) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.   Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman's Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at lemangm.com.    Dan and Sam Mathews are my guests for today, and you may know them from all the social platforms at WeAreDanAndSam.   They live a life of high faith and delightful adventure, and their book, Always Choose Adventure: One Couple's Journey of Chasing the Things in Life That Matter Most, is actually going to release this month. I would highly recommend it. It was an amazing read.   I read through it so fast, and it was a great combination of enjoying the stories but learning so much along the way. It's kind of like our chat for today. We're going to cover various stories, but Dan and Sam are also going to give us simple and practical ideas and tips for adding a sense of fun into our marriage and into our family life.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dan and Sam.    Dan Mathews: (1:47 - 1:48) Thank you for having us. We're excited. We are really excited.   Laura Dugger: (1:49 - 1:59) Well, I'm so excited to journey back and get to hear more of your story, but will you first just give us an overview of what current life looks like right now?   Sam Mathews: (2:00 - 2:29) Yes. Currently, I'm 22 weeks pregnant with our third baby. We have two kiddos.   Canyon is almost nine. Ember is seven. We live in Southern Missouri.   We love adventuring and traveling, and Dan hunts. We share life on every platform, so just lifestyle, vlogging, and sharing our adventures. We recently settled down in a home, and so this is our first time doing DIYs for ourselves.   Yeah, it's a fun season right now.   Dan Mathews: (2:29 - 2:46) And Sam loves to host, so I think we have 48 parties scheduled this summer and knocked out a couple already, but yeah, we're excited about life, excited about adventure, and sharing that with people and how they can actually get out and adventure more.   Laura Dugger: (2:47 - 3:01) You do that so well, but if we're going back then to more of the origin stories, will you both share your journey of growing up and your stories that eventually led for the two of you to overlap with one another?   Sam Mathews: (3:01 - 3:37) Yeah, definitely. It's always been me, my mom, and my sister. My mom was a single mom raising us, born in California, but then she moved us to Southern Missouri when I was young, and this was a great place to raise us.   In the Bible Belt, we were raised pretty much in church. She did an amazing job as a single mom, just caring for us and pointing us to Christ. We got plugged into a church very early on.   We volunteered there. My sister and I worked there. We attended there, and so we're really involved, and that's how I met Dan when he came to Bible College.   Dan Mathews: (3:37 - 4:58) Yeah, I grew up in central Wisconsin. We went to church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, was very, very involved with the kid's ministry and youth group and just any opportunity I could be around that church community, I was. We had a group called Master's Commission that would come up and do outreach at our church.   They were from Florida, and I was like, man, I want to do that one day. These guys are awesome. They're doing human videos, and they're all musical.   My dad's brother and his family moved down to Southern Missouri, and I get a call one day right after high school. They were like, “Hey, there's a Master's Commission program down here. If you want to do it, we'll pay for it.” I was like, “Sure, let's do it.” Almost no questions asked, just kind of like, all right, tell me the date I have to be there. Then, I started packing stuff up and quit my job and moved down knowing absolutely nobody. I got plugged into the church. I became very, very involved, and then just built a community, and through that, I went there with Sam's sister, her older sister, and I got to know Sam, and then I ended up working out at the gym that she worked at.   Sam Mathews: (4:59 - 5:00) Which was at our church.   Dan Mathews: (5:00 - 5:15) Which was at the church, and so we were just around each other all the time, and that kind of developed over years and years and years. Then one day, I was like, wow, this chick is awesome, and now we're here doing podcasting.   Laura Dugger: (5:16 - 5:32) Which is incredible. Okay, so just to pause, and you go into more of these stories, love your books, so easy to read, but can you take us back to what you both first thought of one another when you were meeting those days at the gym? Oh, gee.   Sam Mathews: (5:33 - 6:22) For sure, Dan is the life of the party, like he is comedy, and just, he has all the jokes, and definitely a charmer with all the ladies, but so fun to be around, and not only his humor draws you in, but I didn't grow up with a father, and so I liked the, I don't know, like strong aspect that he had, just like the confidence, and then his relationship with the Lord was something that I desired to have for myself, you know, a leader in a couple like together, someone to point me towards Christ, but the lightheartedness and jokes and humor keep the hard days fun, but that for me was, you know, I always can count on you for a good joke.   Dan Mathews: (6:23 - 6:41) Yeah, I, when I first met Sam, it was kind of in a group setting, and it was with her older sister with my younger brother, and it was like, oh, this is, you know, Justine's sister. Little sister. Didn't really think a whole lot of it, but after a couple years, I think you were probably a sophomore at that time when I first met you.   Sam Mathews: (6:41 - 6:42) Yeah.   Dan Mathews: (6:42 - 7:36) And, and then after a couple years, it was like she was volunteering in the youth group, and she was on the recreation staff at our camps, and so it's like we were spending more time together, and I'm like, oh, Justine's sister's kind of cute, and yeah, we started, we started just kind of a friendship. We were just around each other all the time. I mean, like before we were dating, we're really interested in each other.   It's like I was walking back from the lake, and she'd hop on my back, and I'd just give her a piggyback ride up to the cabins, and then looking back, I'm like, wow, our lives just were really intermingled and overlapped for years and years, but early on, she was younger. She had braces. She was a hip-hop dance instructor, so I mean, she would have like one sweat pant leg rolled up, high-top Nikes on all the time, like thought she was the coolest thing ever.   Laura Dugger: (7:36 - 7:52) I was. I didn't think. Oh, that's amazing.   I love that, and my husband and I were also friends first, and I feel like that does set you up well in marriage. Like you've got your built-in buddy.   Sam Mathews: (7:53 - 8:30) Exactly. I was going through pictures yesterday, because I was going to post a trend online, and it was like, oh, how cute. How many months have you been married?   And it's like months? You put a picture for every year, and it's like we've known each other since like 2008, maybe 2009. Then, like started our like dating in 2010. I look at pictures of us from 2010 as a couple. I'm like, oh, my gosh, we've grown so much just like, you know, like physically, but even just relationally and spiritually, and like it's crazy looking back, and so thankful for so many years of friendship with him, but you know, relationship-wise, it's been great.   Dan Mathews: (8:30 - 8:52) Well, and I feel like doing life together is a great model before ever like the romantic side comes in. You get to know the person in group settings. You get to know who they are without the interest, because people can put on a different face once you're trying to impress somebody, you know, but we were just being our genuine selves around each other for a long time.   Sam Mathews: (8:52 - 8:59) Probably saw some stupid moments, some hard moments, but that's, yeah, that's what you want to see before you get into a relationship with someone.   Laura Dugger: (9:00 - 9:12) Absolutely. Yeah. And as we're starting back that far, then when you reflect back, what are some of the adventures that you're most grateful you've said yes to in life?   Sam Mathews: (9:13 - 10:38) Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I feel like dating, we weren't even dating at this point, the canoe trip when you did a master's commission, and that was so fun.   It was like all of his friends, my sister, all the master's commission group went kayaking, and I decided to tag along as a sibling, and his brother did, and maybe a couple others. And that was fun, but it also gave me an opening into how Dan adventures, because his way of adventuring is way different than mine. I grew up, like I said, with a mom.   We would camp at a cabin, and you'd pack the car full of everything you need. Dan would literally just put everything in a backpack and hike in two miles to go camping. And so being in that group, going kayaking, it was so fun, and it sparked this new love for adventure and new desire to learn a new way of adventuring.   That was so fun. I mean, that was before we were married, but this is kind of jumping far ahead, but when we were married, we moved to Colorado for a couple of years, and although it was a hard season for us, we learned so much. We gained so much from it.   A lot was birthed in us in that season. I mean, physically, I welcomed my daughter. We welcomed our second child in Colorado, but spiritually, I think God planted a lot of seeds that it may not have been a tangible adventure of being out in the woods, but spiritually, we were in the woods, and we grew so much, and I'm glad we said yes to it because it opened the door and led to so many other things.   Dan Mathews: (10:38 - 12:31) Yeah, I feel like a lot of our adventures, some are traditional. I mean, a big adventure for me was leaving home. I mean, I moved straight out of my parents' house to a different state, and that was totally crazy for me.   But then watching Sam, I mean, she moved out to California for a summer, went to a ministry out there. Then I saw her go to Colorado and Nanny for a couple, all summer long, and so I was like watching this, and we were talking, and I realized, like, we're both all in on an adventurous life, and even when we don't have the answers, it's like, is the Lord telling you not to do it? No?   Okay, well, then we'll see what happens, and I thought that was really cool to watch her just like, oh, I'm going to California for a summer, and at first, I was like, please don't. I don't want you to come all the way to California, but then I was like, that's going to be so incredible. Like, you're just leaving everything behind and starting over for a whole summer in a different state, and so that was like the early dating years where we were kind of doing our own adventures, but we were watching and encouraging each other in doing them, and then we started actually going out and camping and floating rivers and hiking up waterfalls, and if you've never camped in the backcountry with someone, I suggest doing it. It's a great metric for if there's someone you want to marry.   Like, if you can figure out canoeing and camping, you're probably going to be okay in marriage. That's good. And so, yeah, we started doing that stuff, and then from there, it was just like one after the next, going to Alaska, camping in grizzly country by ourselves, and it's our first time there.   Like, we've done some pretty wild things, some pretty traditional things, but at the end of the day, all of the adventures are what brought us together.   Laura Dugger: (12:32 - 12:45) Well, and just thinking of the adventure that drew you together, and then also your current platforms on socials and vlogging and preserving all of these pictures, like you said, you've captured all the pictures throughout the time.   Sam Mathews: (12:45 - 12:45) Yes.   Laura Dugger: (12:47 - 12:58) When you look back, do you feel like God had given you little seeds of what was yet to come or what kind of career you would be in someday, or was this totally a shock to both of you?   Sam Mathews: (12:59 - 13:57) You know what? Looking back at pictures or even videos that I took, I could see how it was something that the Lord was birthing in us, and I would say probably me so more than Dan. I think Dan's like, whatever you want to do, I'm along for the ride type of thing.   It probably wasn't his first choice as a career, but now that we're in it, we love it and we're thankful for the blessing it is to our family and the time that we get to spend with the kiddos. But I look back and I started videoing and taking pictures like years before even starting on social media, and then even the first few months in the year of sharing, it was like I didn't know what I was doing, but I still wanted to just share life and encourage people and love on people and inspire people. And yeah, it's crazy to look back on, but I also see the work the Lord was doing to get it all started before we even thought about it and knew that it would be something that we'd be doing.   Dan Mathews: (13:57 - 16:00) Yeah, and I feel like with Sam, she gets promptings from the Lord that she doesn't know what it is. She doesn't know what it means. And early on, I think the very first one, she's like, babe, I just have this feeling like a big change is coming.   And I'm like, anymore? Like, do you have any more information for me? That's not a whole lot to go off of.   And I mean, in the conversation, I was like, okay, we'll see. Then I just forgot about it. And I mean, it was like the next day.   There was an issue at work, just a very immoral thing that they were asking us to do as employees. And I was like, no, I can't be part of this. And I called her right after, and I was like, babe, I think this might be it.   Like I'm going to resign tomorrow. And we talked and prayed, and I only had like a five-minute car ride home. We talked, prayed, got off the phone, and immediately I get a call from my buddy.   And he's like, “Hey, dude, don't know what you're doing for work right now, but I've got a job for you if you want to come work at this place I'm at.” And I was like, “Oh, my gosh.” So then two years later, the same thing happened.   She's like, I feel like a change is coming. Boom, big change. Two years later, I feel like a change is coming.   All of a sudden, we're in a car moving out to Colorado. And it was just like that cycle. And so now when she's like, hey, there's a change coming, I'm like, oh, my gosh.   I got to pack my bags. Something big's happening. I know something major is happening.   And so, I don't know that early on either of us expected us to be where we are today. But we knew that we wanted to prioritize time together. We wanted to prioritize time with our kids and above all of it, time with the Lord.   And if we could get those three in the right order, it didn't really matter where we were. It didn't matter what state we were in. If we were living in a bumper pole camper, an RV, a tiny home, or a regular sized house, we just knew that we had to prioritize those things, and everything was going to work out.   Laura Dugger: (16:01 - 18:03) Truly. And that's the promise from Matthew 6:33, that you're really living that out. And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Burchie family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago. If you visit their dealership today though, you'll find that not everything has changed.   They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible.   They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple, Welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. I've known Sam and Stephen and their lives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today.   Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business. Learn more at their website, samlemanchevy.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. You can also call them at 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.    There's a verse that you quoted in your book, and I had never read it before, in the message translation.   So, it's Matthew 25:26 that says, “That's a terrible way to live.” It's criminal to live cautiously like that. So, drawing your wisdom then from the Lord, how does your faith fuel your sense of adventure?   Sam Mathews: (18:04 - 19:50) Yeah, a lot of faith and trust. Several points in our life have been like a crossroads where we feel like we want to almost desire more out of everything to go towards the direction where God is leading us, where we don't know the outcome. We don't know what's ahead.   We don't know what's coming and it's forcing us to trust the Lord, to have faith, even though we're fearful of it. Or we look at another option where it's like, you know what, this is very comfortable. We know the outcome.   We know what's going to be required of us. We know how we're going to get there, how we're going to pay for it. And it was something we didn't desire.   We liked being in a position where we needed the Lord. We're reliant upon Him. And so, you know, we talk often in the book about being comfortable.   And I feel like when you're in a comfortable setting in life, it's safe. There's no risk involved. There's little to no trust in the Lord.   I say that, you know, there's more to the story of that. But that you don't want to be at a place where you don't need God, where you don't need to rely on Him. And so, for us, we just encourage people that if you do find yourself in a comfortable place, to maybe step out of your comfort zone a little bit.   To what's an area where you need to trust the Lord more? Is it finding that new job that you've been waiting for, that you've been hoping for? Is it moving to the state that's closer by your family or closer by your friends that you really desire but you're scared too?   To not just be comfortable and stay for the sake of not being fearful or not, like knowing what's next, but instead step out, trust the Lord, you know, as long as you have peace and as long as you feel that yes from Him. And just lay fear aside and move forward with the Lord.   Dan Mathews: (19:50 - 21:54) Yeah, with every big decision that we make, we're led by peace. And we've said it for years. If either one of us don't have peace about it, we're not doing it.   But when there are multiple doors open, we say we're going to choose the most adventurous one. If we don't feel a specific direction from the Lord, let's just pick the most adventurous one. And it's kind of become common practice for us to not have really many of the details planned out on a major decision on a trip.   And people are like, do you have any idea of what you're going to do when you move there? Or how long you're going to be traveling the country in an RV? And we're like, nope, we'll figure it out.   I joke with my buddies all the time because they're like, “I mean, how do you know everything's going to be okay? How do you know this?” I go, well, between me and God, we've got everything figured out.   And they're like, “Oh, okay, I get it.” I'm like, “well, the Lord has everything figured out, but I can throw myself in that team, you know?” And I feel like it's been an encouragement to some of our friends as they watch it.   And they're like, whoa, you guys did it. I'll talk about it for years. And even when we moved out to Colorado, in our minds, we were going to move out there.   All of our friend group was like, one person needs to move. And then everybody else is going to slowly follow out. Well, we end up moving out there.   And I'm like shooting my buddies messages like, “All right, when are you coming out? And one by one, it was like, “No, I don't think we're coming.”   No, it's not going to be for at least five years. It's going to be, you know, maybe when the kids graduate, all of these different responses. And I'm like, man, that was one of the biggest things that we missed when we were out there.   But we knew that moving to Colorado, taking a pay cut, paying more in rent, like all of those things were a stepping stone to get us to where we were today, to trusting the Lord and starting our first business together, trusting the Lord with our finances, with our time. And really putting us in a position where we were fully dependent on him for our survival.   Sam Mathews: (21:54 - 22:40) And so even if something doesn't work out, we mentioned a couple of stories in the book where we may have moved forward without peace, and it did not end well. But the Lord always brings it around and teaches us something from it or a situation where we felt the peace to move to Colorado, but we were only there for two years. It was hard on us financially.   We got into debt. We had no friends, no family out there. It was a hard season.   We still gained from it. So instead of looking at something as a complete loss, we still look to find the good. You know, what did the Lord birth in us?   You know, like Dean said, spiritually, we grew together. Financially, we started a business. Like so much good came from it that even though it maybe on paper or to others, it didn't make sense.   It was still good. And something that the Lord, yeah, started for us.   Laura Dugger: (22:41 - 23:05) And you've learned those lessons and now you get to share them with others. Even super practical with this one. Our family has never done the RV thing before, but even just dipping our toes in and trying a vacation that way.   What tips do you have for families, maybe who aren't traveling around, living out of their RV, but vacationing with one, what are some of your best tips?   Sam Mathews: (23:05 - 24:27) I just saw a video of someone sharing the other day where they took their family of, let's see, four, six total on an RV for the first time. And I was like, oh no, because the first warning I give to everyone is you have to drain your poop through the hose. If you're out on that, RV life is not for you.   RV vacation is not for you. Do you have to get down and dirty and take care of a few things? There's a lot more maintenance that comes with RV vacationing or RV life.   And I usually have the dirty work for Dan to do and I'm inside cooking, cleaning. But an RV has all your basic needs. You can still go to the bathroom, you can still shower, there's a toilet, there's a bed.   It's just on a lot smaller scale. And if you're not good with being in close proximity with all your children or your spouse, then you may just need a little bit of a bigger space to stay in. But it's fun because you get to navigate it together and you get to learn just a new way of life or new way of traveling.   And yeah, the maintenance of the restroom, you have to have water hookups, or you need solar for electric or you have to be hooked up to electric. The great part is you can go anywhere, and you can get right up close to some great adventures. Our favorite spot to park an RV is the rim of the Badlands.   It's so pretty. Is it the North Rim?   Dan Mathews: (24:28 - 24:28) Yeah.   Sam Mathews: (24:28 - 24:54) It's gorgeous. You wake up to the sun rising over it and it's the most peaceful thing to be right there next to it. And you can't do that with a cabin in the woods.   But the benefit to a cabin in the woods is that's its own adventure. And so just do a little bit of research on the maintenance required for setting up, tearing down the RV in order to get on the road and to like park it and set up.   Dan Mathews: (24:55 - 26:44) I like how you weave some of the worst parts about our RV life in there. But I will say being on the road, traveling and like just kind of deciding on the way is one of the greatest things ever. I did not, like we definitely had a plan.   It was like, “Hey, we're gonna stop one time.” Growing up, we've got five kids. So, it was like, we're stopping one time to go to the bathroom.   If you have to go, you're just gonna have to hold it type of thing. We were fairly structured in the traveling to a place. But being in an RV, it really opens up so much to where you can on the way be like, oh, I just saw a billboard.   I wonder what that is. Look it up. How far away is it?   Hey, what if we take a 45-minute detour and go check this out? Like we found places in the middle of Kansas that 1% of the population knows about. We camped.   There's spots that you can camp on the rim of the Grand Canyon. Like no guardrail, back your vehicle right up, walk out the door, sit there, have coffee or whatever in the morning. And that was like our favorite part about it.   There were nights that we would drive until like one in the morning. And we might be sleeping in a truck stop. But we were on the way to Glacier National Park or to the Oregon coast or wherever.   And so, I feel like ditching the schedule and just kind of figuring it out as you go is one of the most freeing things on a vacation. And the other nice part about it is if you find a place that you absolutely love and you're like, we want to spend four days here, do it. You don't have a new reservation somewhere else that you have to get to.   You can just go wherever the wind blows, have fun with the family. And yeah, I think everybody needs to do it at least one time.   Laura Dugger: (26:44 - 27:02) Oh yeah, for sure. What a great challenge to step outside our comfort zone like you said. Well, one other amazing adventure that you've embarked on together is becoming a surrogate twice, I believe.   Will you tell us a little bit more about that process and that experience?   Sam Mathews: (27:03 - 31:10) Yeah, definitely. So, in 2018, we had our daughter and she was a little bit more work than our first. So, our first was super easy.   Ate well, slept well, like barely cried. And our daughter, maybe it was just her being a girl. A little bit more needy and required some extra grace and some more prayer for patience on my part.   But at that point, I was like, yeah, I think I'm done. Having children of our own and parenting our own children because even raising two kids is going to be a task. But I didn't feel like I was done carrying children.   And I'm like, I still want to have babies, but I don't want to have more to parent. How do I do that? But I felt like the Lord just laid surrogacy in my heart.   And I started thinking about it, praying about it, researching it. And I brought it up to Dan like, hey, what would you think about me doing this? And I had to educate him a little bit on like what being a surrogate was.   As a gestational surrogate, I wasn't carrying an embryo with an egg that was mine. So, I'm not biologically related to the baby. And after some prayer, we both felt at peace about it.   And so, we walked through that door and started the process of meeting a couple or going through an agency to start a journey. And yeah, we've done two now. So, in 2022, I delivered a baby boy for a couple.   And then in 2024, so just last year, I've just actually in a few days, I'm going to hit my year mark of my second belly bud being one and a little girl for a couple. And it was like the most, one of the greatest adventures I've been on. And I've gained so much from it.   And it's so rewarding to see someone who desires to be a parent, to be a mom, but physically can't. To see them walk that road and just step into the role that like watching her become a mom is like, you can tell that's what she was meant to be. That's what the Lord had for her.   And it's so fun seeing the joy of their family and watching her grow up and like being a part of her life. That, yeah, like we just encourage other people, if you're able to do something like that, or no matter what it is, it's not just surrogacy, but if God's calling you to something that may require a lot more from you or something that is not normal, it's not traditional, you don't see it a lot, like just step out and do it. And yeah, it's been fun.   It definitely grouped Dan and I closer together. Spiritually, he was there for me in times of emotional hardship. Pregnancy in itself is hard, but to do it multiple times, you know, this is my fifth pregnancy now.   There's a lot of roles that he takes on to care for the kids more, to care for me more. And we've grown closer and just his love for me, seeing it that even though it's not our baby, like he's still caring for me and taking care of me as if it was. And the Lord, I've had to rely on the Lord so many times because pregnancy and birthing in itself is a miracle.   To go through moments of transfer, like the embryo doesn't always take the first time on a transfer or your levels are off or maybe one of the ultrasounds is, you know, something doesn't look good on it. We're constantly relying on the Lord and it gives us an opportunity to share with intended parents, you know, someone who didn't have hope, didn't have anything to look forward to for parenting their own children, to just like be an encouragement to them spiritually and then share these journeys with others publicly has been a great way just to share our faith and to share how going through a surrogacy journey caused us to rely on the Lord and, you know, point everything back to Christ and, you know, God being just very pro-life and we're excited to bring this life into the world.   And so, yeah, definitely a big adventure to embark on to bring two babies into the world that aren't ours, but one of like the greatest things I've ever done. It's awesome.   Laura Dugger: (31:11 - 31:25) It's a beautiful sacrifice and I'm sure others are also wondering at that moment when you meet the baby that you've been carrying, how did you handle those emotions of sharing the baby?   Sam Mathews: (31:25 - 33:42) Yes. Yeah, definitely. So, when you go into surrogacy, you know, from the beginning that it's not your child, especially as a gestational carrier, not related to it.   Throughout the pregnancy, all these milestones that you hit, you're excited for it, but you're excited for it for the parents. So, finding out, you know, there's a heartbeat and seeing the baby for the first time on ultrasound, you're excited for them. Finding out the gender, you're excited for them.   You know, delivering the baby, you're excited for them that you do a lot of mental prep, but there's also like a lot of research that shows to like plan something after delivery for your family to do, something for you to do with your kids so that when you do leave the hospital, you don't think about what you don't have anymore. You think about what you do have at your house with your family. And so, it may seem hard.   I think a lot of times people compare it to adoption where the birth mom is literally giving up her child to somebody else and the hardship that that would cause on her as a surrogate. And I can only speak for myself because I'm sure there are times where it is hard for a surrogate. But for me, it wasn't because I did a lot of mental preparing, emotionally preparing that I knowing that this child wasn't mine going into it.   I knew that at the end of it, I would deliver the baby and the baby would be taken from me and I'm not raising this child. And a lot of times you don't even touch a baby until like maybe you're discharged to see the baby before you leave. So, it's not like I'm delivering the baby.   The baby's being given to me and I'm holding and I'm bonding with it. And then it's being taken away. It's no, this is from the moment it comes out of the womb.   It is their baby and it's in their care. And again, seeing their face, their joy, the moment where like they're seeing their child for the first time is so rewarding. And that's something that I would never want to take from them.   It was never my role to be this baby's mother. It was to just carry their baby and to bring their baby into the world. And so, it's not as hard as you think, thankfully.   I mean, I wouldn't have done it a second time for sure if it was. And we're praying about a third one. But it's so rewarding.   And yeah, you know from the beginning that it's not yours. So, it's easy to, in a sense, pass the baby off.   Laura Dugger: (33:43 - 34:56) Well, that's a story that really encapsulates stewardship. I think that's a great example.    Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights?   Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy.    For both of you, your lives are just fascinating mostly because you're living this life of faith and sacrifice. So, it's compelling to get to hear how you're actually doing that. But then I love how you call out that you don't recommend people go to the other extreme and become reckless and chase adventure. You discern between choosing adventure and chasing adventure.   So, I'm wondering if you can give us any of your definitions or parameters around what choosing adventure does and does not look like for you.   Dan Mathews: (34:57 - 38:00) Yeah, I think that choosing adventure for us is looking at opportunities where we can spend as a family, where we can get outside of our comfort zones and just really put it in the Lord's hands. Have fun along the way, you know, whether it's ziplining or jumping off a cliff, like a lot of people think adventure has to be this grand thing and super dangerous. And for us, it isn't really.   Like there's been a couple of times where we've been like, this got crazy quickly. Maybe we could have planned it out a little bit better. But at the end of the day, it all worked out.   And so, when we talk about people choosing instead of chasing or not being reckless, it's all about like, do something new, do something fun, do something that puts you outside of your comfort zone, but isn't going to put you in a bad position. I'm not the guy that's like, you know what? Never swam across Lake Michigan.   I'm going to give it a go, see how it happens, and see what happens. If that's the case, it's like maybe start out with a triathlon and see what you're going to do and work your way up. And so, I don't ever want anyone to take the book or take the things that we say or the adventures that we've had in life and think I'm going to do something absolutely crazy that doesn't make sense.   That's not logical. That's not safe. Like, that's not what this is about.   It's about just getting outside of your comfort zone. And the more you're outside of it, the more comfortable you become with being uncomfortable. And I tell people, like on some of my backcountry hunts, I want to be comfortable in suffering.   Like when I'm really, really struggling physically to climb up a mountain with a 70-pound pack on my back, I want to be like, I know I'm making it out of this. It's not fun in the moment. Like it hurts.   My legs are burning. My back hurts. I feel like I need a break, but I'm going to keep pushing through.   And when I look back on that, I'm going to go, that was brutal and awesome. And I loved every second of it. And I feel like that's how, how we view our trips, our road trips.   I mean, driving, what was it? Thirty something thousand miles in a couple months and visiting dozens and dozens of states. It was like, there were times where it was like, I don't want to be on the road anymore.   The wind is literally about to tip the RV over. I'm almost taking out construction cones or running into things because I had never driven an RV before. And the very first place we go is Wisconsin.   And we drive right past Chicago and there's like construction for a hundred miles. And so it's like all of those things, they were fun. Yeah, they were scary in the moment we got through, we were never in any real danger.   And so, yeah, I feel like it's a stair step when it comes to adventure. I didn't start out just wandering around Alaska by myself. It started with going down to Arkansas, being five miles away from the vehicle and then kind of built from there.   Sam Mathews: (38:00 - 39:50) Yeah, to not be reckless, like to, you know, we talked about this earlier to move forward when you have peace. And just because you have peace with it, someone else may not understand it. But with peace, like there's wisdom too.   You don't want to move forward with a lack of peace and not using wisdom in a decision because yeah, that will get you in trouble and that will cause hardship and pain later down the road. But if you have peace about something and there is that open door and you feel the release from the Lord to go on this adventure, then do it. And even though if it doesn't work out, you know, God will still work everything out.   But yeah, like Dan said, when you, the more you do things that are outside your comfort zone or that, you know, even others may not agree with, but you feel at peace with and you're moving forward, the easier it becomes to do those. And the more you would trust the Lord. And like you said, again, it doesn't have to be some grand adventure.   We encourage people that if they're new to choosing adventure and they're new to stepping outside their comfort zone, try like a new restaurant one day, go to like a new, I was thinking the other day, we live in Missouri and we always travel outside of Missouri for adventure. I'm like, we need to do a six-month adventure just within Missouri. Like we drove two hours South and through Missouri to go to Georgia last week.   And we were driving down this hill on one of the roads. I'm like, this looks like, it looked like Georgia already, or it looked like Colorado, the hillside and the trees and the fog, I'm like, this is beautiful. And I look down, I'm like, oh, we're still in Missouri.   So, there's so much to adventure and to explore in your own backyard or down your street that it doesn't have to be something crazy wild. We're not saying go, you know, jump out of a plane and skydive or something, but just start small, start where you have peace and where you feel the Lord's leading.   Laura Dugger: (39:52 - 40:26) That's great. I love having a handful of practical things. I think of my brother, Drew and his wife, Amanda, when their kids were really little, they just drew a two hour radius to see what places would be fun to go invest and explore.   Or for us, I would say one of our most recent adventures, we didn't know what it would look like on the other side, but it's become one of our favorite things in life and probably our best decision in parenting for us as we started homeschooling our kids last year. And it has been a wild adventure.   Sam Mathews: (40:26 - 40:27) That's an adventure.   Laura Dugger: (40:28 - 40:36) So, any other tips to get people started? Those are even trying the new restaurant. Yeah.   Anything else like that that you would say?   Dan Mathews: (40:37 - 42:13) The nice thing is that we all have this supercomputer in our hand or in our pocket all the time. And there are so many lists of like the top 10 places to see, places to eat. There's books that are just like places to canoe before you dive, places to hike before you dive, and they have all of this stuff listed out.   And so, it's not that you have to be a pioneer and find a new place that nobody's ever been before. Look at the research that people have done before you and look at lists, get on Pinterest or any social media platform and try to just figure out what are practical things that you can do. And then you can also say, how difficult is this going to be for me?   Do I really need to jump that far into it right now? Or should I just go to a local park that might have a cool cave that I can explore? Or maybe there's a creek near the house and like, what if we just go down there and see if we can find fish or crawdads or try to skip rocks?   My kids, that is one of their favorite things. I'm like, I love doing it as a kid. I didn't realize how exciting just the act of watching a rock skip on the water would be for kids.   And so there's, yeah, there's a million different resources online for things that you can practically do close to home. And it might, for some people, just be trying that DIY project instead of calling a carpenter to put yourself up, you know, or a handyman. Like, give it a try.   The worst that's going to happen, you have a hole in your wall. Now you watch a video on how to patch it.   Laura Dugger: (42:14 - 42:37) That's so good. And I'm seeing a theme. A lot of these are getting outdoors and nature.   That's always an adventure. But then I'm even thinking simple things in conversation, trying out a new question, even with a loved one. Or you said at the beginning that you love hospitality.   So inviting somebody new into your home. I think any of that novelty is just really good for us. Yeah, definitely.   Dan Mathews: (42:38 - 44:32) Yeah, I think even making it a point in conversation when somebody asks you how your day is, instead of just saying good and continuing on, actually stop and talk to them. Because a lot of people, their biggest fear might not be going on a road trip, might not be financial ruin. It might just be opening up and being vulnerable with another person.   And so it could be the person at the office that you've never actually had a conversation with. You know each other. You might wave when you walk by their desk.   But actually talk to them. Get to know them. Tell them about yourself.   And so the book has a lot of those types of things lined out where it's like it might not be physical. It might not be out in nature. It might be within your home.   It might be, I mean, some people need to do this with their kids. Like that might be the scariest thing is talking to your teenager. Like actually having a conversation.   And we're going to sit down and we're going to have a meal together and actually talk as a family. And so, yeah, it looks different for everybody. And that's one thing, because our passion is being outside.   Like Sam wants a houseboat. She wants to buy a houseboat and renovate it and live in it for a certain amount of time. And we've had other people who a bunch of homeschool families bought sailboats and sailed all around the world as they were homeschooling their kids.   And I heard that and I was like, yeah, yeah, we're going to have to do that at some point. But I know for a lot of people, just going outside is a big deal. And so it looks different for everybody.   We do give a lot of nature examples, but there's different ways for every type of person, every level of. What would you even call it? Social.   There's a lot of different levels to the social scale. And so no matter where you are, there's something for you to be a little bit more adventurous.   Laura Dugger: (44:34 - 44:42) OK, so like I said, you've made a compelling argument for getting outside of our comfort zone. Why do you think some of us resist this attractive lifestyle?   Sam Mathews: (44:43 - 46:46) Yeah, I think there's fear in it. There's sadly nowadays, you know, what will other people think of me? What will what if we fail?   What if we lose money? What if we what if I look a certain way that I don't want to appear to others? And that's where you just have to think back to Christ.   Like what is it? What really matters at the end of the day? It's how God views you.   And if you fail, oh, well, what if the Lord like just opens up so many doors and creates an avenue for you to get out? Or what if so much good comes from it that we can't be afraid of failure? Again, move forward cautiously with wisdom and with the Lord's peace and direction.   But in our book, we share one of our biggest adventures was going out to Colorado and renovating a van for five days. And we broke down on the side of the road, something no one wants to do in the desert, in the middle of twice. We did twice.   We broke down in the middle of Kansas and then in Colorado again. And it was we'll be honest, it was not fun. It was one of like the scariest times.   But looking back, like we're so thankful we did because so much good came from it. Like we met some amazing people who helped us along the way. And it's now one of our favorite stories to tell of encouragement that just because you say yes to adventure and just because something bad happens, it's not all a waste.   And I think, yeah, that fear just keeps people from being able to move forward and being like, you know what? Like I'm comfortable right here in my house, my kids in public school, not going anywhere because I know where my money's coming. I know like what's happening tomorrow.   I know how people are going to respond. And I'm just going to like stay here. Not that that's a bad thing, because the Lord needs people in every season in every situation.   But if he's prompting you to step out and to try something new, like don't be afraid of what's required from you or what could happen. You never know like where it could lead.   Dan Mathews: (46:47 - 48:10) Yeah, I think a lot of it is those few things, fear, pride, or just you believing that God isn't big enough or doesn't care about your situation. And unfortunately, a lot of people are there where I really want to try this, but like what if things go wrong? And for us, it's like when things go wrong, that's where the Lord provides.   That's where the Lord directs. That's where he leads. That's where his word can be the lamp to your feet and a light to your path.   When you're trying to do it all on your own and you're staying in this safety net of comfort, nothing amazing happens in that place. And so, we've seen it time and time again, the Lord's provision, the Lord's provision in our lives and not only the provision financially, but actually like setting us free from constraints like social constraints of like you have to work nine to five. We heard that over and over and over.   And I'm like, well, the nice thing is Sam and I are both hard workers and super driven, and I'm sure we could get jobs again. Yeah, so like worst case scenario, we run completely out of money and we go back to go back to work. And I'm like, what does failure actually look like?   And I try to get people to break it down for me. People who are like, I'm glad that worked for you, but that couldn't work for us. And I go, why?   Sam Mathews: (48:10 - 48:10) Yeah.   Dan Mathews: (48:11 - 48:20) Like, why couldn't it work for you? And they're like, well, I like what happens if it doesn't work out? And I'm like, let's expand on that as far out as we can think.   Sam Mathews: (48:20 - 48:21) Even the worst.   Dan Mathews: (48:21 - 48:24) Like, does that work? Like, are you going to die? No.   Sam Mathews: (48:24 - 48:24) Yeah.   Dan Mathews: (48:24 - 49:02) Like, no, you'll probably just come back home if it doesn't work out, you know? And so, trying to trying to show people that because the fear of the unknown is pretty significant to people. Something completely new to them that they've never tried it's really challenging to get people to take that first step.   But once they do, the second step is easier. The third step is easier. And pretty soon you're jumping and sprinting and you're like, whoa, this whole life is out here that I didn't even know existed.   So yeah, I definitely think it's those three, though.   Laura Dugger: (49:03 - 50:59) That's good. And it makes me think that typically the way that we grow our faith is action. We put our faith into action and God gives us with more faith when we're faithful with the little faith that we have.   And it also makes me think back, I believe it was episode 82, 82. Traveling With Your Family With Teacher, Wife, and Mother to 4,, with the guest, Katie Mueller. I'm going to link to it. I think you guys would love it where she parallels what God called people to do throughout the Bible with travel, what that looks like today, practical, fun things.   But Sam, something that you said reminded me of this when you're like, “Well, if nothing else, it's going to be a great story.” And she referred to that, like when things went wrong growing up on their travels, they laughed so hard about those memories. And in their family, they tragically lost their dad very unexpectedly.   Actually, her mom, I'll link to Joyce Hodel's episode as well. She shares that story. But their family has all of these stories and all of these memories from choosing adventure.   So that makes me start to think of marriage and family. And as we put that together with adventure, you guys always make adventure feel approachable, even in parenting. And I'm thinking on page 15, you wrote that as a kid, anytime you get to drive cross country, stay at a hotel or eat at a restaurant, it's an adventure for no reason other than it's a break from the norm, right?   And you know what? That's the whole point. Choosing adventure is about stepping out of your comfort zone and trying something new.   There's no right or wrong way to do it. So, with that in mind, Dan and Sam, how can we begin to enjoy this adventurous life in marriage and in family?   Sam Mathews: (51:00 - 51:49) Yeah. Bringing your kids along is such a fun, it requires a little bit more packing, but such a fun aspect to adventure. And going on date nights with your spouse, trying something new, experiencing it together, finding something you enjoy together, but realizing that it can also, there's another level of fun to have your kids along with.   And sometimes we'll drive 30 minutes away and stay at a hotel for a night just because it's a new place to go and the kids love it. And it doesn't have to be expensive. They go putt-putt and that for them is the greatest thing.   If you end it with ice cream, it's even better than the cherry on top, that it's just something fun for them. But yeah, realizing that it can be a family thing, but it could just be you as a couple too. But yeah.   Dan Mathews: (51:50 - 54:56) Well, and for kids, there's so much adventure to be had right at home or right in your backyard. I bought, I went to Walmart one day and I bought two extra large king-size sheets just so that we could do forts. I was like, I'm gonna put these in the closet and now I've got like the alligator clips and so I can clip them to different things.   And when it's a rainy day and the kids are bored and we're stuck inside, it's just a break from the norm. And then they'll be like, mom, dad, come see what we did. And they might build like a little shop where they sell us stuff inside of their fort.   Or they might make beds for us and for the stuffed animals and for our dog and all of these different things. And so, breaking out of the norm is just what adventure is. Like if they're not used to that, if they're not used to that time together, like some days it's, we're gonna go jump on the trampoline and they're like, wait, both of you at once?   Normally one of us is getting stuff done and the other one's hanging out with them. And when all of a sudden it's like both of us unexpectedly are walking to the trampoline, they're like, oh, family trampoline jump. If you need really good ideas for adventure and you're a parent, just watch Bluey.   If you haven't seen Bluey, that dad is awesome. And like we used to do the claw game. I would put all of their stuffed animals in my lap.   My thumb was the joystick and then my other hand was the claw and they had to move it and I would pick up the stuffed animals. And to them, it was the greatest thing they'd ever done. And we saw it on a cartoon.   And so, incorporating family into it, I feel like it's just, it's really easy. And aside from excuses, there's no reason not to get the kids involved in it. Also, there's a million books about getting kids outside.   And so, like checklists that they can do. Every national park, if for those that don't know or haven't visited national parks, I didn't know this because we didn't go to any national parks growing up, but your kids can become a junior ranger. They get these booklets and they get badges of the individual parks and they have to learn about nature and about the animals that are there and about the history.   And so that became a thing for the kids. Every place we went, it was like, “Oh, I need a junior ranger badge.” And I mean, they had wooden badges just lining their chest.   Like they were some war hero and they absolutely loved it. And so there's things like that locally in nature parks and stuff. But doing it together.   I mean, that's what it's all about. For me, I watched the guys on TV and I'm like, that guy just went to New Zealand by himself or like watching alone. I'm like, I don't want to do that.   It would be pretty crazy, I feel like. I think everybody needs some type of alone time here and there. But for me, I want to share this stuff with my wife, with my kids, with my buddies.   And so, yeah, that's what it's all about.   Sam Mathews: (54:56 - 55:07) Yeah, like you said, have those stories to tell with your family, of your family members. That way, if something does happen and they pass, you have so much to look back on of the memories you're able to share together.   Laura Dugger: (55:09 - 55:15) Absolutely. And to bring those up and share them with our kids while we are together. They love hearing stories about when they were little.   Sam Mathews: (55:16 - 55:16) Oh, yeah.   Laura Dugger: (55:17 - 55:29) And you guys have taken it a step further where you document it then and preserve. So if we want continued inspiration after this conversation, where can we go to follow you two and your adventures?   Sam Mathews: (55:30 - 56:08) Yes, we do. Our kids love watching our travels and stuff. We share along for videos and stuff on YouTube, Facebook.   But we share our life on every platform. We are Dan and Sam. Pinterest, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Facebook.   And then Dan has his hunting content over at the Nomadic Outdoorsman. And yeah, we share day-to-day life, what that looks like, lifestyle. But then our travels, our adventures, mom life, welcoming a new baby, our surrogacy journeys, whatever life looks like at that time and how we're enjoying it, what God's teaching us, where we're going.   And we laugh along the way, the encouragement and try to inspire you to live an adventurous, fun-filled life.   Laura Dugger: (56:09 - 56:28) Love it. We'll add links to all of those things in the show notes for today's episode. And you two may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Sam Mathews: (56:31 - 57:15) Ooh, practical knowledge. Let's see. I would say with motherhood, don't think that, I don't know if this would be considered savvy sauce, but it's just a good reminder to myself that as a mom, you may think you're alone in something, you're going through it, and it's just you, but you're not.   You are with a community of people who are feeling the same thing that you're walking through, going through the same thing, and just reminding yourself you're not alone because I think it makes the journey a lot easier to know that there's other people walking through the same season, the same hardship, the same joy, the same trials as you. And it makes life a little bit easier when you feel less alone.   Dan Mathews: (57:16 - 58:26) I think for me, it would be that your kids are going to be an extreme version of what you are. So, if you're showing fear and decisions, if you're hesitant, if you're not trusting the Lord, that's gonna be compounded in their lives. And they're just a more magnified mirror image of what their parents are.   And so, we try to, in everything that we do, go, is this something that's gonna set up our kids for success? And it's not like, oh, we have to have money in the bank for them, you know, for a retirement fund one day or a college fund. I'm talking like everyday lessons.   If I put my phone screen in front of my kids, they're gonna do that more and more and more. If I prioritize things that aren't meant to be prioritized over my wife, they're gonna see that. And so, we try to be very, very clear about what our priorities are.   We try to live intentionally, showing them the right way to do things and being an example to them. And so, yeah, that'd be my savvy sauce.   Laura Dugger: (58:27 - 58:49) I love it. You two are so full of integrity and you definitely shine the love and the light of Jesus brightly by the way that you live. So, I know I'm leaving this conversation feeling very inspired to choose adventure.   And I just wanna say thank you for being my guest today.   Sam Mathews: Thank you so much for having us. It was a joy.   Dan Mathews: (58:49 - 58:50) It was a blast.   Laura Dugger:  (58:52 - 1:02:06) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents

265. Servant Leadership, Mentoring, and Actionable Steps with Kathryn Spitznagle   2 Timothy 2:2 (NIV) "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."   **Transcription Below**   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are some servant leadership principles you've learned over the years? How did you learn forgiveness is part of leadership? Will you elaborate on a leadership tool mentioned in your book, which is called the "Hero Page?"   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Kathryn Spitznagle is the author of "Rock Star Millennials--Developing the Next Generation of Leaders," and the companion workbook, "Rock Star Millennials Toolkit." She is a professional coach and the founder of Mentoring Women Millennials, LLC. She has 30+ years of mentoring, coaching and leadership development in corporate, small business and not-for-profit environments as well as 10+ years of mentoring cancer survivors and their families throughout their journey. Her mission is to foster the personal and professional development of leaders... for the life they lead today...and the one they want tomorrow.   Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned in Episode: Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson Biblical Principles as Wise Business Practices with Steve Robinson   Additional Previous Episodes on Business and Leadership on The Savvy Sauce: The Inside Scoop on Chick-fil-A with Mark Dugger How to Apply Successful Business Principles to Your Life with Dee Ann Turner Leadership Principles and Practices with Former NFL Player, J Leman How to Lead When You're Not in Charge with Author and Pastor of North Point Community Church, Clay Scroggins Understanding the Myers-Briggs Personality Type Indicator to Improve Your Marriage, Family, and Work Relationships  Thriving at Work, Home, and Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Business Owner, Crystal Paine Energy to Spark Success in Your Business with Best-Selling Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Christy Wright How 2 questions can grow your business and change your life with author, pastor, and podcaster, Jeff Henderson Radical Business and Radical Parenting with Gary & Marla Ringger, Founders of Lifesong for Orphans Stewardship as the Daughter of Chick-fil-A Founders with Trudy Cathy White Living Intentionally with Shunta Grant Generational Differences in the Workplace with Haydn Shaw Pursuing Your God-Given Dream with Francie Hinrichsen Leadership Training: Five Key Elements for Creating Customer Loyalty in Your Business with Elizabeth Dixon  Uncover Your Purpose with Clarity with Isimemen Aladejobi Unlocking Meaning and Purpose in Your Life and Overcoming Burnout with Dale Wilsher Leading Your Family, Marriage, and Self with Justin Maust Divine Productivity with Matt Perman 223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence Patreon 27 Re-Release: Purposeful and Practical with Emily Thomas Special Patreon Re-Release: Creativity and Career While Raising a Family with Jean Stoffer   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger:  (0:12 - 1:20) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage.    Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy.    Kathryn Spitznagle is my enchanting guest for today, and her resume is quite impressive, but what actually is even more of a standout is her humble heart.   So, if you are one who learns from stories and encouragement, and you also appreciate actionable, practical tools, this conversation is definitely for you. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kathryn.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:21 - 1:24) Oh, thank you, Laura. Appreciate you having me.   Laura Dugger:  (1:24 - 1:32) Well, I'd love for you just to start us off by giving us a snapshot of your background and also your current phase of life.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:33 - 6:47) Okay, lots of seasons. Yeah, learned, you know, you learn something from all of them. So, I started out in journalism.   I've kind of come back to my roots interviewing folks. I was a sports writer, so I grew up in a family with four brothers, so when I went to college, I knew sports, and at the time, that was unusual to have a female sports So I did that, and then went into publishing after I got my journalism degree, and since I'd been a sports writer, they put me in the men's division of this magazine publishing company. So, I started out learning, I started out working for a helicopter magazine, and I was an editor, and the only one that did know how to fly, and so they sent me to flight school in order to be a better editor and, you know, learn how to communicate with our readers.   And again, then because I'd done that and was in the men's division, they moved me then to shooting times, which was hunting and sports shooting. So, then I learned how to shoot guns and reload in that whole industry. From there, I went to fashion.   So, I went to the women's division, and at first they said, you know, are you sure you want to do this? And I said, well, this will be the first job you've put me on that won't kill me. You know, I've learned how to fly planes and shoot guns.   You know, let me have a shot at that Singer sewing machine. And I was a terrible seamstress. And they said, really, what we want you to do in fashion is to create a presence in New York, in Manhattan.   And so, the publisher was in Peoria, Illinois, but they wanted a presence in Manhattan. And so that's what I did for three years, worked remotely back and forth, and created that presence, joined the Fashion Group International. They hired three consultants to fix me up.   And so, I laugh if you've ever seen the movie Miss Congeniality, that was me. So, you know, learned all about the fashion industry and built those relationships with our advertisers. And also, then we went into television and did a lifetime, the TV show, weekly TV show on Lifetime called Make It Fashion.   And we're trying to blend that the home sewing industry with the fashion industry. So, if you saw this on the runway, in Milan, or in New York, or in Paris, this is how you can make it yourself, be your own designer kind of thing. So that was my journalism start, then moved to St. Louis, got married, had babies, and went into corporate communications, worked for Purina in St. Louis, where I learned so much about leadership, moved back to Peoria, and I went to work for Caterpillar. And when I retired from Caterpillar, then I started this business, Mentoring Women Millennials. And I have such a heart for this generation. I think they're so bright and smart and creative and entrepreneurial, and they get a bad rap.   And so, I wanted to have a platform to lift them up, and also to give them tools. So, the first year I wrote a book, Rockstar Millennials, Developing the Next Generation of Leaders. And what I found, there were so many really sharp, bright millennials that had never had good leaders.   They never had a mentor. They didn't have the tools. Many of them were entrepreneurs.   They didn't intend to lead people. They had a craft. They started a business, and it grew.   And they're like, now I got people. What do I do with people? And as I was out speaking about my business, I found the audience very consistently had two types of attendees.   One was what I would call a seasoned leader, who said, for helping the millennials, thank you. Something along that line. And then I would have a young person stand up and say, “Do you have a book”?   And after that happened several times, okay, Lord, I got this. Yeah, write a book. And I remember saying, “That's a good idea, God, but I don't have time.”   And so if you want to know why COVID happened, it was me. Because the good Lord said, hey, it's February of 2020. It looks like you have time right now.   And so I hired an editor. We wrote a book in four months and published it at the end of the year. And in 2021, then started the podcast.   Laura Dugger:  (6:48 - 7:04) Well, that's an incredible resume and such a whirlwind to getting here today. But you mentioned some leadership principles, especially at Purina. So, Kathryn, what are some of those servant leadership principles that you've learned and acquired over the years?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (7:04 - 9:34) Over the years, yeah. Just some amazing leaders at Purina. Their culture was very much a servant leadership culture.   Purina as a company was created in the 1950s by an independently wealthy gentleman, William H. Danforth. And he created the Youth Foundation in St. Louis. And he found once he got kids out of gangs and out of jail and off drugs, nobody would hire them. So, he created a company to hire those kids, Purina. And so, they, yes, told us that, you know, the first day he said, you know, this is never confused what we make with why we're here.   We were here, we were created to develop people for life. What we make will change. But the reason we're here will not.   And Danforth also wrote a book called I Dare You. I Dare You to be the best you can be and help someone else do the same. And so that very first day we were told the story of the genesis of Purina, we were given that book, I Dare You.   And when we left orientation, we met, they had 360-degree mentoring. And they said, “This is how we create this culture. And we continue this for generations through mentoring.”   So, when you leave orientation, you're going to meet your leader mentor, your peer mentor, and in 90 days, you'll be mentoring. Everyone at Purina mentors, and we all learn from each other constantly. So that was the platform.   And that was the culture. And when you think about feeling cherished, and valued, that's how they did it. Because if you're going to mentor someone, and someone's going to mentor you, you have value.   And the people you're working with have value. And so that creating a cherished culture was their legacy. And then it's something that I took on to Caterpillar.   And I continue now, in my keynote speaking, that's one of the most popular is how to create a cherished culture in the boardroom, in the living room, and in the classroom. Hmm.   Laura Dugger:  (9:35 - 9:47) And so, I won't ask for the entire keynote speech then, but is there an overview that you can give us of those things that we could implement that you've learned to implement over time as well?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (9:47 - 11:29) Yes, some of the tools. And, and that was another wonderful thing about Purina that I saw then, and haven't seen it since. You know, it seemed unique to me at the time.   Fast forward a few years, and it was like, yeah, that was very unusual leadership. And one of the things that they valued was, know your people, understand them, know their needs, know their wants. Even at this point, so, you know, I'm talking 30 years ago, I went to work there in 1990.   They were talking about purpose. What's your purpose? Purina had a very specific purpose.   We are a purposeful company. We're here to develop people for life. And, and they even said, I thought this was unique to it at orientation.   They said, and we hire bright, smart people, and we don't expect you to stay here very long. Our job is to send you off better than we found you. And with a positive impression of Purina.   And here's why. When you leave here, you may go to another Fortune 50 company, which I did. You may be in a position to impact a merger or acquisition.   You can buy and sell our stock. And at the very least, when you go to the grocery store, you can buy dog food. And we want it to be Purina.   Laura Dugger:  (11:31 - 11:36) That's incredible. That actually happened then with you taking that forward.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (11:37 - 16:07) And all of those lessons learned. So, when I talk about creating a cherished culture, Purina, one of the things they did very well was to introduce a concept, illustrate it with a story, and then activate it with a tool. So mentoring, they talked about here is the platform on which our company is built, developing people for life.   And they told us that story then about Purina. Then they gave us the book. And then they gave us a mentor that we were meeting with each week.   And they gave us a, what do I want to say, an outline. So, when you meet with your mentor or mentee, here are questions to ask. Here's a way to go about this.   And the number one reason people do mentor is because they don't know how. What's a process? And so how smart?   Purina's like, here. Here's an outline. Here are things to ask.   Here are discussion topics. And here are different tools we're going to give you as you progress in leadership. And they're designed for you then to pass on.   And so those are some of the tools when I talk about creating a cherished culture. One of the tools is here are questions to ask. Here's how to have that dialogue.   Here are discussion topics. When you're developing a relationship with this person, ask about their life outside of work. Ask about their family and friends and whatever, as much as they'd like to share.   Not everyone does. That's okay too. Ask about their best day at work.   What's a bad day at work? What's their best boss like? How do they like to be recognized?   What's their purpose? One of the most insightful questions they asked at Purina was, why do you want to succeed? And why do you want this company to succeed?   And those two questions give insight to someone's purpose. And so, then if you frame discussions around their purpose and their values, it is exponentially more meaningful to them. So, when I talk about how do you lead millennials and how is it different?   Those are a couple of the things. Understand their purpose. Understand their life. Their values outside of work, and frame things within their purpose.   Here's an example and or their values. If someone says, my values are hard work and transparency. I want people to be honest. Those are a couple of my values.    Okay. So, if I were leading that person and I saw them being transparent with someone else, being open and honest, I would recognize them for that.   Not just recognize them for the work, but recognize them for their value, demonstrating their value. I saw you be open and honest with that person. Thank you for that.   If kindness is a value, I saw you. I saw what you did there today to help someone out without being asked. Thank you for that kindness.   That resonates on a whole different level. And if you have to have a tough discussion with that person to say, frame it in those words. I know you value honesty, and I do too.   And so, we need to have an honest conversation. And here's some things that I'm seeing in your behavior, in your leadership, or in your work style that can hold you back. So, let's fix this whole different way to lead.   Laura Dugger:  (16:09 - 16:39) Absolutely. And I love how some of these even one-page practical tools you've included in the back of your book. So, it's a plug and play, but I'm even thinking back to your mentoring relationships where you had this circle of mentors and you were mentoring.   I think it's also helpful to get to hear one another's mistakes. So, are you comfortable sharing any mistakes that you've made along the way that actually even turned out to be beneficial learning opportunities?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (16:40 - 20:32) Absolutely. Loads of them. I've got loads of them.   And one of the women I mentor has said, I think I've advanced my career 10 years by learning from your mistakes. And I love that. And she's like, now I'm going to make plenty of my own, but I'm not going to make yours.   And I said, “Good. That's the point of all this.” One of the big ones I made at Purina.   I think a lot of places I would have been fired, probably should have been. I was working in the marketing group, and we were like an internal marketing. So, we did the new product introduction, point of purchase, point of sale materials, the legal documents that went out, the whole packet that would go out to a distributor, a grocery store.   And EverReady Battery was one of our product lines. So, we had internal clients. And as they had new product introductions, we'd get the materials together.   We had in-house printing, all of the things, graphic design, and that was all under my purview. The letter, there's a letter that went out to distributors that was a legal document and had a number. And I pulled the wrong letter, the wrong number.   And it wasn't discovered until last minute. And we sat down with the client and they're like, oh my gosh, this is the wrong legal letter. And I, you know, I'm the account rep, that was on me.   So, I had to go back, I had to go to Neil Lewis, my boss and say, “Okay, we've got to pull this back before it all goes out, reprint, which is going to be all our expense. We're going to have to have people working off shifts and all that sort of thing to do it quickly. And then reassemble all these Eveready Battery packets and, you know, do as close as we can to meeting their deadline.”   And so basically it's going to eat up our margin and we're going to have more printing expense. We're going to have more labor and we're going to have some unhappy people. And our client's not real happy either.   And that was all me. And Neil said to me, “You know, I learned something today. And he said, until today, I thought you walked on water.”   And he said, “Now I know you're human, just like the rest of us.” And I thought, oh, my word. And he's like, okay, so what happened?   That was a mistake. How are we going to fix it? And I said, “I've already pulled the right letter, getting it reprinted. Here's the, additional time and money. Here's how it's going to impact our margin.” And he said, “You know, can we do it? And can we satisfy the customer and get, if not meet their deadline very close?”   And I said, “We can meet their deadline if we have people work third shift.” And, you know, and he said, “Okay, let's do it. That's the right thing to do.” And, and he said, Kathryn, “I told you what I learned today. What did you learn?”   And I said, “I learned how to be the kind of leader I want to be when someone makes a mistake.”   Laura Dugger:  (20:36 - 21:05) Wow. The humility in that is incredible. And thank you for sharing.   Stories are so memorable. It makes me instantly reminded of two previous episodes. I'll make sure I link in the show notes, both with Jeff Henderson and Steve Robinson, accomplished businessmen, but who were also willing to share stories and how just like you, it actually made them a better, more relatable leader.   And so that's encouraging.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (21:06 - 21:34) And I knew when I got to Caterpillar and, uh, particularly when I was running the Caterpillar visitor center, because that was so new and never been done in Caterpillar. And so, we're going to make some mistakes and we're going to learn, you know, along the way. And there was more than one occasion where I was reminded of Neil Lewis.   And I said, okay, I learned something today. You are human. Just like the rest of us.   Now, how are we going to fix this?   Laura Dugger:  (21:35 - 23:48) And then what did you learn?    Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.    Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life from premarital to parenting to the emptiness phase.   There is an opportunity for you. WinShape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured. Even when it seems things are going smoothly so that they're stronger.   If they do hit a bump along their marital journey, these weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of WinShape retreat perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well fed, well nurtured, and well cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and more.   I've stayed on site at WinShape before and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, to find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org slash S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   You've had so much experience in different areas and as a corporate leader. So what is it that drew you specifically to have a heart for millennials, which we can define as those approximately born between the 1980s and early 2000s?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (23:50 - 28:18) I really started working with them. My last role at Caterpillar, I was a director of global sustainability and it was within public affairs. So, we were leading, Caterpillar was leading a natural infrastructure coalition.   I was working with a lot of different entities, public, private, governmental. We're trying to get language passed into law. That was a big portion of my job.   Another portion of my job was to be out speaking about what Caterpillar was doing in the world of sustainability. And I loved that. What I found was the sustainability groups of Caterpillar employees all around the world, we do a global call quarterly, learning what everybody was doing.   They were all this age group. And when we would do the river cleanup on Saturday, these are the people that showed up with their kids. And when we do tree plantings, these are the people that showed up with their kids.   It's like, okay. And I remember saying to my peers, you know what, this group of employees, these young people are not going to retire with a pension like we are with health care like we do. There's so many things that we have garnered through our career appropriately.   They don't have that. What drives loyalty for them and what engages them with Caterpillar are these things. These things we're doing through the foundation where we're giving back and improving the world and the things we're doing in sustainability, giving back, improving the world.   They are so much more engaged in our company through these things. And so, I kind of knew, I thought, okay, I'm not sure exactly where the Lord is leading, but it's going to be with those people. And that was the thing I knew when I retired that, okay, this is what I want to do.   And then the more I worked, you know, I started the business mentoring women millennials. The more I worked with these young women, the more I saw, yes, there's a need. There's a need here.   And I always, you know, again, people would ask, why? Why are you so connected? And I said, first of all, I saw the value in them.   But secondly, I think I was one. My husband and I laughed that we never really fit in with our generation. And here's why.   We both were out of school and working on our careers when we met. And in our generation, you got married right out of high school, or at the very least right out of college. And so, you know, our families had given up.   They're like, they're never going to get married. They're working. They got this whole career thing going.   And so, when we got married, well, then we didn't have children until we were in our 30s. You know, highly irregular for our generation. We were entrepreneurial.   So, we were looking at franchises in our 20s. And our families were like, just get a job. What is this?   You got to buy something and then you buy something else. And my husband owned a business, his first business in his 30s. We both had side hustles.   Again, friends and family were like, just do one job. What is with you guys? Always got all these things, you know, going.   And then when I took the job in fashion, and I was working in Manhattan and living in Peoria, like, what do you even call that kind of work to call it remote? Working remotely? Yeah.   And so, I think part of my heart for them is I was one. And so, when they talk about some of the struggles and the things that are endearing to them, like, I got you. I felt like that, too.   Laura Dugger:  (28:20 - 28:57) That is incredible. And I think it really does make you the perfect person for that mentor mentee relationship. And I kind of want to camp out on that further, because we've alluded to it.   And some of these tips are in your book, where you highlight those discussion topics that give people the tools. But then if we take it a step further or personalize it, how can all of us as listeners begin a mentoring relationship like the one you've described? And I'm even thinking of the beginning point.   Do you think it's up to the mentor or the mentee to initially reach out?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (28:58 - 33:07) Either one. Yeah, either one can work. When I left Purina, having had this wonderful leadership experience and mentoring environment, I thought, well, this must be what all corporations are like.   No. Doesn't make them bad. They're just different.   So, when I got to Caterpillar that was male, very male dominated, I remember calling my mentor at Purina, who is still my mentor today. She mentored me for 22 years at Caterpillar after I left Purina. And then was one of the biggest proponents of me writing my book and starting my business.   And we still get together today. So, when they talk about developing people for life, they're very serious about that. And so, when I got to Caterpillar, I thought, well, they don't seem to have this.   I think I'll start a mentoring program. Well, I was, you know, some little gal in marketing. You're not going to start a mentoring program for a Fortune 50 company out of that spot.   It comes up through HR and Office of Business Practices and Legal and all of that. Anyway, I called my mentor at Purina, very frustrated, and I said, “Lynn, you and Neil make a place for me. I'm coming back.   They don't have a mentoring program here.” I don't, you know, and she said, “Okay, first of all, we didn't train you up to come back. Your job is to take this forward.”   And she said, “Are there young women there?” Yes. And she said, “Mentor them.”   And she said, “Are there leaders that need support?” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Okay, support them.”   She said, “Are there teams that need to be built?” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Then you have good work to do there.”   Go. And she hung up. I thought, OK.   And so, from that moment on, when I would see an announcement that would come through email where a woman was being hired into Caterpillar, I would reach out to her and just say, do you have a mentor or would you like one? And for 22 years, they all said yes. And so that's what I did.   I worked with those women. And, you know, here's another God wink when my announcement went out, then that I was retiring. These women all started coming back to me wherever they were in the nation and even in the world.   Many of them had gone on to do other things, bigger, better things. And they all started reaching out to me. Someone had forwarded the announcement to them and said, “We want you to start a business, a mentoring business and help others just like you helped us, and we will help you.”   And one said, “You need to write a book, and I'll write the forward.” Another one said, “Yes, and you need to do podcasts and I'll be on one.” Another one said, “I know what's going to stop you at your website, so I'm going to help you with your website.”   Another one said, “You're going to need testimonials.” So, she posted on social media that anyone that's ever been mentored by Kathryn Spitznagel, leave a message here. Very humbling.   And another one said, “I'm now VP of a big company in Chicago and I will hire you.” And so, I retired one day and started a business the next.   Laura Dugger:  (33:09 - 33:30) Incredible how that all came back around. And I gleaned so much from your stories in your book, and then even getting to connect with you before today. But there's another story about servant leadership that you shared from the man who you've named your previous boss, Neil Lewis.   Will you share? Do you know which one I'm thinking of?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (33:31 - 36:35) Yeah. You need to know three personal things about everyone who works for you. Okay.   So, Neil Lewis had leadership meetings. There were 12 of us were his leadership team every Monday morning. He was also a minister outside of work.   So, a lot of times we would laugh that we were getting the rehash of the sermon from yesterday as part of his leadership. But he often gave us assignments. And one Monday morning, he said, okay, here's your assignment.   I want you to know three personal things about everyone who works for you. And they need to be things that aren't in their personnel file. And he said, I'm going to ask you sometime this week about one of those people, but you won't know which one.   So, you need to know all of them. And I, you know, lousy leader, I was just learning. And I said, Neil, I have 10 people, three things, 10 people, that's 30 things I got to know.   And he said, Kathryn, good math. You have some work to do. So, I went back, and I interviewed each one of my 10 people, three things, found him out, followed the assignment.   And I was ready. And I saw him in the hall later in the week. He said, “Kathryn, walk with me. I'm going to the next meeting.” I said, “Okay.” Tell me three personal things about Kathy, who works for you. I said, “Okay.”   Kathy has recently divorced. Uh, she has an 18-month-old baby, and she is moving to a new apartment. And he said, “What have you done to help her?”   And honest to God, I said, “That wasn't part of the assignment.” And he looked at me and I said, “No, wait a minute. I did help her.   I changed her hours. She has a longer commute now into St. Louis. So, she's going to come in at 8:30 am and work till 5:00 pm.”   And I was feeling pretty proud of myself, like bonus question. And he said, “Did she come to you, or did you go to her?” And I said, “Well, she came to me, but I said, it was okay.”   So, Kathryn know your people. If you don't know your people, you don't know what they need. And if you don't know what they need, you can't help them.   And if you can't help them, what in the world are you doing here? It says leaders were here to serve. And if you're not here to serve, you need to step out.   I became a different leader that day. One who chose to lead by serving.   Laura Dugger:  (36:38 - 37:17) I just wanted to let you know there are now multiple ways to give when you visit thesavvysauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled support. Our mailing address is also provided.   If you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible. Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com today. Thanks for your support.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (37:18 - 38:19) You know, the other piece, uh, the other thing that he taught me there, uh, Laura, as we continued to walk, uh, because he always wanted to bring things back around to, to a positive. He was going to make his point, but he was not going to leave me there, you know? He said, Kathryn, “Do you understand what you missed there?”   It was such a missed opportunity with Kathy, um, to engage her and to help her feel cherished. He said, “That's the difference when you anticipate someone's needs and you go to them before they ask. That's the opportunity.”   That's the gold. That's what engages people and, uh, garners their loyalty. And that's when they feel cherished.   That was the real missed opportunity.   Laura Dugger:  (38:23 - 38:35) And that never left you. And that's probably blessed so many people hearing that. What about lessons of forgiveness in leadership as well?   Do you have any stories to illustrate that?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (38:35 - 42:28) Yes. And that's another lesson from, from Neil Lewis that was a profound lesson for me that I've never heard anywhere else. Forgiveness is part of leadership. So, I learned this, um, again, lousy leader just starting out.   And, um, when he put me into leadership, I was like, how hard could it be? Tell people what to do. They do it.   And then came my first employee opinion survey results and they were bad. The numbers were bad. The comments were bad.   The people were unhappy. Um, and the comments to me were, were hurtful. They were justified, but they were hurtful.   And so, when I got, uh, you know, got all the information, I left, I was upset. The next day when I came into the office, I just went into my office and closed the door. I thought they don't want to talk to me.   I don't want to talk to them. That's fine. I was working here.   So, Neil gave me a little time to cool off. And then he came in and, um, on my desk, uh, one of the things that they, um, Purina does in terms of creating that cherished culture is, um, to have things around you that revitalize you. And so, they ask you one of the first days about what, what are things that revitalize you?   And I said, okay, uh, fresh flowers revitalize me. They remind me of my grandmother, nanny, and being in the garden. Um, notes are cards from handwritten, you know, from friends and family and a walk outside.   Those are three things that revitalize me. Okay. So again, I registered with Neil Lewis.   He knew that was a way to frame things for me. So, when he came in that morning, he picked up one of the cards from my desk and he handed it to me and he said, to read that card. And I said, you can read it.   He said, “No. No, I'm asking you to read it out loud to me.” So, it was a card from someone on my team, very complimentary about my leadership style and what it, how it impacted them. And he said, “Is that the leader you are today?”   And I said, “No, but in fairness, they were mean to me. They said some very hurtful things and yeah, I'm not happy.” He said, “Okay.”   And he said, “Kathryn, as leaders, our job is to give first and give again”. And he said, “Do you know what the bridge is between giving first and giving again?” And I said, “No.”   I said, “Neil, I'm not tracking with you.” And he said, “Forgive.” And I said, “Oh, forgiveness.”   And he said, “Nope. Forgiveness is something someone else does. That's a noun. Forgive is a verb. And that's what I need to see you do. Forgive.”   He said, “Kathryn, forgiveness is a big part of leadership and it's something that will hold you back for the rest of your life. So, I am asking you today to be the leader I know you to be and forgive them.”   Laura Dugger:  (42:32 - 42:52) Well, in even the way he modeled that in the way you shared that story, it also reminds me of another leadership tool that you mentioned in your book, which I think if somebody is experiencing this, that could be a really practical next step. So, it's called the hero page. Will you elaborate on that for us?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (42:52 - 52:07) Yes. And so, at Purina, when they talked about having these one-on-ones with your team, with your mentees, with your mentors, kind of framing the dialogue in three buckets, called it three bucket exercise. And I still, this is how I still mentor today.   Uh, so the first thing we ask people to come prepared with is bucket one. What are we celebrating? What have you learned? What have you accomplished? What has gone so well?   Um, since the last time we spoke, because we, as people, but particularly as women pass through things very quickly and go, yep, done good onto the next. Yeah. We don't take that time to celebrate.   And Purina was very focused on what they called reveling. Take just a minute to revel. That was good work, did good work, but whatever was accomplished personal and professional, it was, there were things at home, baby slept four hours straight.   Okay. So, bucket one, what are we celebrating?    Um, so bucket one, they called aha.    Bucket two, they called, hmm, what is, uh, what's out there that you need to, um, do, you know, what's on your to-do list. Is there something you need to get a plan for?   Um, is there something that you want to talk through that's kind of on your assignment board, something like that. And we'll talk through some tactics.    Bucket three is what in the world.   So, anything that seems overwhelming, uh, caught you by surprise. You didn't know it was part of the job. You didn't know it was part of life.   Those are the things we want to talk about in bucket three, every time. So, you want me to tell you the things that are overwhelming me and that I don't know where to start. Yes.   Yes. Every week, because here's what we'll do. We will take the power out of that.   Once you, that's it. We're going to fix it and say, okay, this is what's overwhelming me. This is what I'm anxious about.   This is what caught me by surprise. And we're going to figure out how to break it down into something actionable. And then we're going to move it to bucket two.   And next week, we're going to be talking about those action steps and pretty soon it's going to move to bucket one. There you go. We're celebrating that process that I learned at Purina still did at Caterpillar and doing today.   Um, that just warms my heart. Uh, when I see, um, the folks that I've worked with who've now gone on to do other things. And, uh, one of the guys on my team at Caterpillar, um, now works for McDonald's in Chicago.   And he said that Kathryn, that's our onboarding process. And so, anybody that comes through his team in McDonald's, that's what they learn how to do. And he said that it was just gold.   And you can talk about creating a safe space, but again, the difference with Purina was they gave you a tool, not ours, we are a cherished culture. We create a safe space. And you know what, here's how, by asking this question and by setting aside time to answer it and wrestle with it and work through it.   Now, having said all that, where do you put this information as you're learning this about this person? Uh, you're learning what they're celebrating. You're learning, um, what their values are.   You're learning what they like to do outside of work. What's important to them learning about their purpose. That's a hero page.   And so, they gave us a tool and they said, you know, it's very simple, a hero page. You, you just record things that you have learned about this person that you respect and admire about them. And you can do one for yourself.   They ask you to do the first one for you. Um, but then also to do them for, you can do them for a peer or a leader. Um, you can also do them for someone you're struggling with because oftentimes we aren't really looking for the positives in that person.   So, the, uh, the logic behind the hero page is once you've created it, uh, you're going to look for things to put on it. Positives, all positives, negatives we remember. Positives we're looking for and that's the first reason.    The second reason for a hero page is you may have a tough day with that person sometime. And if you do, you go back and look at your hero page and it puts things in perspective.   Yeah, this isn't going well today, but here are the things I respect and admire about this person. And yes, um, perspective.    The third reason is they may have a tough day sometime and what an incredible gift you can be to them.   Here's an example. When I worked at Caterpillar, um, had wonderful leaders, some remarkable women leaders at Caterpillar, I think because there were so few of them, they were rock stars. And one that I worked for, uh, was sent to Beijing, China on a short term, like a, I don't know, six month or one year assignment as it at the same time, I was also mentoring someone in that Beijing office and it was very remote.   They were, in a remote area, creating an office, creating an HR office, you know, where they, where there's a factory and the person I was mentoring said, you know, let me give you an idea of what we're struggling with here. What kind of, what our situation is. And I'm at corporate and I said, well, whatever it is, I think I could send you some of our signage, some of our value signs.   Those are, those are, that's what you need. I'll send you some value signs. You can put them up on your walls.   And she said, Kathryn, we don't have walls. We're working out of a tent. And she said, each morning we send a bus out to the rural areas here in China and it stops to pick up workers.   And if dad can't go, he sends mom. And if mom can't go, she puts a couple of kids on the bus. And we never know from day to day who's coming to work.   What we do know is that the bus will be full. They will get two meals while they're at work, breakfast and lunch. And then when it returns them home, they will have gotten paid.   She said, we are all but paying people and chickens. Do you understand the situation, the gravity of what we're trying to do to come in here and create an office and HR processes? And she said, first, we're trying to determine who our employees are.   I said, “Oh, our leader is struggling”. And she said, “Will you get on a call with her today?” I said, “Give me a minute.”   And she said, “You're going to get her hero page.” So, we got on the call. Lois, “Kathryn, is this the woman that led one of the first NPI projects for Caterpillar as a woman with our flagship tractor?”   And she said, “Yes.” I said, “Is this the woman who was handed a belt buckle and a t-shirt and created global merchandising stores all around the world?” And she said, “Yes.”   I said, “Is this the woman who has been married 30 plus years happily, raised two remarkable children and showed us all it was possible?” Yes. I said, “I don't know what you're struggling with today, but I do know the woman who did these things can tackle this.”   What a gift you would be to another leader on the day that they needed it in that moment, just to remind them of their value.   Laura Dugger:  (52:10 - 52:40) That encouragement is so powerful. And you're such an engaging storyteller. And like you had mentioned previously, you've gone on from corporate America to now beginning your own business, including your podcast that will link to Rockstar Millennials.   So, I'm curious, Kathryn, are there any stories from those podcast episodes that really come to mind as you think of any standout lessons or your favorites?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (52:41 - 55:51) Oh my gosh. There are so many. It just seems like when I think I can't meet someone any more incredible, I do.   And again, good Lord's hand, they come from all different paths. We're international now. A couple of them that really stand out to me, Michael Kuzma,: he invented the self-playing guitar.   He knew people in his life who had either never been able to play the guitar and wanted to, or they had experienced some sort of an injury or illness that then prevented them from doing what they loved. And so, he created this and just said, “I want this to bring joy and be fun for people.” And I guess the part of the platform that I have for the podcast is purpose.   How are you living your purpose? Khushi Shah is 19 years old. So, she's a little bit younger than a millennial even.   Created a company called Drizzl and it is an informed, what I want to say, it's an irrigation company. And she created this as a science project in grade school. She's now in college at MIT and Harvard and Northeastern.   So, she's attending classes at all. She went to a science and math school in Chicago for high school, finished early and took a gap year at 17. And I said, “So you traveled?”   And she said, “Nope, I decided I'd just run that business full-time, Drizzl.” And so, her families of Indian descent. They'd gone to India and seen the need for water, clean water.   And she said, coming back to the States, I saw sprinklers, lawn sprinklers running and it was raining. And I thought, I need to fix that. There are products on the market that will turn a sprinkler off if it's raining.   Her product is predictive. She's 19. Yeah.   So, folks from St. Jude, folks from Midwest Food Bank, just incredible. Obviously, I can't name one.   There are so many. And those who are living their purpose in all walks of life, in all places around the world, I want to talk to.   Laura Dugger:  (55:52 - 56:07) Wow. And Kathryn, you've invested in so many people and highlighted so many people through your podcast. As you look back, what are you happiest that you invested your life in?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (56:09 - 57:07) Well, I'm a mom, boy mom. So that would have to be my first, my boys. Again, one of the women that I mentor said to me early on, Kathryn, one of the things I love the most is you're from the other side.   I said, Kelsey, what does that mean? I'm from the other side. And she said, you've already done all of this.   You've done the corporate life. You understand small business. You have a decades long, happy marriage.   You've raised your boys. They're happy. They're successful.   If you did this, we can do this and you can help us. And so that investment on so many levels, yeah, is coming back.   Laura Dugger:  (57:08 - 57:19) I love that. And would you be willing just to share anything else about your business or what all you have to offer so that we can continue learning from you after this conversation?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (57:20 - 1:00:49) Oh, absolutely. So, the book that you mentioned, Rockstar Millennials, Developing the Next Generation of Leaders. That's the book.   And it recounts so many of these leadership stories. And then in the back, as you said, are the different tools. And I have to credit the Caterpillar engineers because when I went to Caterpillar and I would tell these stories about Purina or I would live something that they had taught me.   Very early on, in the meeting, or after the meeting, some of these gentlemen came up to me and said, “That thing you just did in that meeting, can you write that down? Like what?” And they said, “Like the words and or the process.”   And so, it began. So, I'd start writing down the words and they might put a graphic with it or somehow improve it. And so, through the years, this same group kept coming back to me.   And when they saw the announcement that I was retiring, they showed up again and said, “Okay, we need one more thing, a spreadsheet.” What do you mean a spreadsheet? They said, “You know, all through the years, we have all of these tools now that we've created out of your head on this paper that we can use and we're using.”   If you can give us a spreadsheet that says, “If you're having this leadership issue, use this tool.” So, God bless the engineers.   So, I credit them, and the tools are in the back of the hard book.   What I found when I started doing workshops was people didn't want to write in the book and they also wanted something bigger and they wanted a place to make notes and doodle and that sort of thing. So that's why we have the book and then the toolkit. So, my business is Mentoring Women Millennials and I do one on one mentoring with individuals, small business primarily.   They'll bring me in to work with their women leaders, but also just individuals who are in some sort of a transition in life or that have never had a mentor and would like one. And so, I do the one-on-one mentoring also with nonprofits. And I'm now an 18-year breast cancer survivor, still in treatment.   And I also mentor breast cancer survivors. And keynote speaking. I work with the Capital City Speakers Bureau.   And so, I do speaking there and I'm prepping for a TED Talk. So those are the next things.   Laura Dugger:  (1:00:50 - 1:01:16) I love it. Always something up your sleeve. We will link to your website so that people can follow up and get in touch if that would be a good partnership.   And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Kathryn, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:01:18 - 1:01:49) Um, when I left Purina, um, I asked Neil, “You know, how do I ever repay this company that has given so much to me?” And he said, “Take what you've learned and help someone else.” And so, if you learn from me, that would be my ask, help someone else.   Laura Dugger:  (1:01:50 - 1:02:05) I love that. Amen. Great Savvy Sauce.   And Kathryn, you're just so poised and classy and full of insight. And it was an absolute pleasure to get to host you as my guest today. So, thank you for being my guest.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:02:05 - 1:02:07) Thank you. Thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger:  (1:02:09 - 1:05:52) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Top Ten from 2024: #1 Stories Series: Prodigal and Redemption with Renee Endress   **Transcription of original episode**  237. Stories Series: Prodigal and Redemption with Renee Endress   Isaiah 61:1-3 (KJV) "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified."   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you tell us a bit about your experience of surrendering your life to Christ? Will you share your journey with your prodigal daughter, Andrea? Will you tell us about Grace Catering and your cookbooks?   Renée Endress is blessed to be the mother of seven children ranging from 16-32 years old, all of whom she homeschooled. Four of the seven are married and her six precious grandchildren bring her much joy and laughter! She is also part of a church family she loves and her dear parents passed on to her a love of sunsets, flowers, and the beauty of God's creation.   Cooking has been a passion for much of her life and she's written three cookbooks, which were later combined into one large book. For the past ten years, she enjoyed catering, which kept growing and eventually blossomed into an almost full-time job. A couple years ago, she refurbished a building in Peoria, Illinois, which is now her catering kitchen where they make homemade take and bake meals for people to purchase. Through it all, God has been so good!   Renée says, "I could share just the pretty parts of my life, but I've come to realize that something special can happen when people are real with each other -- when we share the muddy parts of our lives as well as the lovely parts. This can be used to encourage each other on the journey, and most of all, to point to the faithfulness of our amazing Savior, who loves to redeem our mud stories.   My story looks much different than my idealistic hopes for my future as a young woman, but through it all, God has been faithful every single step of the way. He was faithful in teaching me as an immature newlywed struggling through some very difficult relationship situations. He was faithful as I walked, tripped, and floundered with a daughter through some very dark teenage years, deep rebellion, ten months at a residential facility for troubled teens, and a teenage pregnancy. He was oh, so faithful when my difficult marriage of twenty-four years turned more and more destructive and led to an ongoing separation. He was faithful two years later when I was diagnosed with breast cancer and underwent two surgeries and radiation treatments. He has been faithful through ten years of "single" motherhood. He was faithful as He opened doors for me to start a thriving catering business at the perfect time. He was faithful when He allowed me to be a part of starting "Beauty for Ashes," a group for women from my national church who have come from painful marriages. As I look back on my life, I see plainly His footprints all the way through.   These verses have been so meaningful in my life: "...He hath sent me (Jesus) to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound... to comfort all that mourn... to give them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that He might be glorified." Isaiah 61:1-3"   Visit Renée's Business or Order Her Popular Cookbook at Grace Catering   Other Related Episode from The Savvy Sauce: 78 Parenting the Prodigal Child And God's Desire For Redemption With Mother-Daughter Duo, Claire Stanfill and Tindell Baldwin   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website.   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2024: #2 Escape from Modern Day Sex Slavery with Rachel Timothy   *DISCLAIMER* This episode includes thematic material and may be triggering. It is only intended for mature audiences and those who are not triggered by graphic sexual content.   **Transcription of original episode**  229. Escape from Modern Day Sex Slavery with Rachel Timothy   Ephesians 5:8-14 (NIV) For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light  (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)  and find out what pleases the Lord.  Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.  It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.  But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light.  This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”   Rachel Timothy was only nine years old when she was first approached by a perpetrator who was known to her as a teacher and coach. In her books, she goes into detail of the process of being groomed and how the evil of what was happening to her in the dark remained unseen by everyone around her. She describes how she coped for so many years by blocking out the memories only to have them resurface when she was an adult with a family of her own. Rachel had no idea that when she would pursue justice it would end up putting her right back in the world of trafficking. It wasn't until her church family saw the signs and believed what she was saying that she was able to start the process of finding freedom. Rachel shows her faith and love of God during the highs and lows of her journey and she prays for each person who reads her story. That their eyes will be opened and their actions will lead us toward ending sex trafficking in our world.   Stop Suffering Website   Rachel's Books: Open Blind Eyes Reflecting Ownership Reflecting Ownership Workbook   Questions and Topics We Discuss: Will you share your story with us? Will you close the loop on an update to today? How can we recognize signs of trafficking in our children and in our community?    Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Homeschool Printing Company   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website.   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2024: #3 Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery   **Transcription of original episode**  Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery   Philippians 2:4 (AMP) “Do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others."   Dr. Juli Slattery is a clinical psychologist, author, speaker and the president/co-founder of Authentic Intimacy, ministry dedicated to reclaiming God's design for sexuality.  Every Monday she hosts the podcast Java with Juli, where she and a guest sit down for coffee and honest conversation about relationships, sex, intimacy, pornography, singleness, and God's design for our sexuality.   Juli is the author of ten books, including Finding the Hero in Your Husband, Passion Pursuit, and Rethinking Sexuality.  She and her husband Mike are the parents of 3 sons; they live in Akron, Ohio.   At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.   Dr. Juli Slattery's Website, Authentic Intimacy   Java with Juli Podcast   Books by Dr. Juli Slattery:   Passion Pursuit   Rethinking Sexuality   Pulling Back the Shades   Sex and the Single Girl   25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy   Surprised by the Healer   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Proverbs 15:1 (NIV) "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."   **Transcription of original episode**  227. Resolving Conflict in Marriage with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo   As co-hosts of the top marriage podcast in Apple Podcasts, the ONE Extraordinary Marriage Show, Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo speak to a worldwide audience about sex, love & commitment, and challenge every listener to make their relationship a priority. Their best selling book, The 6 Pillars of Intimacy, has transformed countless marriages around the world. This framework is simple, practical, and powerful. You'll be inspired to look at your marriage through a new lens and be encouraged by its commonsense approach.   One Extraordinary Marriage Website One Extraordinary Marriage Show   Questions We Discuss: For couples who are not in destructive and abusive marriages, what are typical conflict styles and cycles? What conflict have you had recently and how did you process through it? What are common issues couples fight about?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Homeschool Printing Company   Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick 190 Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo 205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2024: #6 Friendship is Essential as a Christ-Follower with Justin Whitmel Earley   Genesis 2:18a (NIV) "The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone.”   **Transcription of original episode**  225. Friendship is Essential as a Christ-Follower with Justin Whitmel Earley   Justin Whitmel Earley is a writer, speaker, and lawyer. He is the author of the award-winning books Habits of the Household and The Common Rule, though he spends most days running his business law practice. Through his writing and speaking, Justin empowers God's people to thrive through life-giving habits that form them in the love of God and neighbor. His latest book, Made for People, delves deep into the profound impact of friendship and offers transformative strategies to combat loneliness. He lives with his wife and four boys in Richmond, Virginia, and spends a lot of time around fires and porches with friends.   Questions We Discuss: How does becoming more like Jesus look similar to becoming more like a friend? What are some questions we can ask our friends the next time we get together, in hopes of taking our conversation and connection to a deeper level? Will you share your experience when you recognized friends are essential in the battle against evil?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Homeschool Printing Company   Additional Recommended Episode from The Savvy Sauce: 90 Friendship with Drew Hunter   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

I was about nine years old when my parents took me to meet Paul Bunyan. Actually it was a giant statue of that legendary lumberjack seated on this huge chair. My dad went to the ticket booth, paid for us, and then I went through the turnstile and into Paul's big yard. And there he was in his red plaid shirt and a little log cabin at his feet that showed how huge he was. And then came the heart attack. Suddenly this big voice boomed out for everybody to hear, "Hello, Ronnie." Man, for one of those rare moments in my life, I was totally speechless! How could I know that the ticket guy had asked my father my name (little scam going on here!) and then he relayed it to a man in that little log cabin - a man with a very big microphone. I was just amazed that someone that big actually knew me! I'm Ron Hutchcraft and I want to have A Word With You today about "You Can't Go Unnoticed." For many people, life has been a lot of not being recognized, not being acknowledged, not being known, not being seen. Until, much to their amazement, like me as a little boy with that giant, they find out that the biggest Person in the world - in the universe - really knows and cares about who they are. And there comes that moment when it's as if He seems to call you by name. It happened to a woman in Jesus' day, and it can happen to you, no matter how you've been treated in your life. Our word for today from the Word of God is found in Luke 8:42. "As Jesus was on His way, the crowds almost crushed Him. And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. She came up behind Him and touched the edge of His cloak, and immediately her bleeding stopped." Now Jesus goes on to ask who touched Him, which surprises His disciples that He could sense an individual encounter in such a crowd of people. Here's the part I love. "Then, the woman, seeing that she could not go unnoticed, came trembling and fell at His feet." She was utterly amazed. This woman, who had been ignored and passed over by so many people, had been noticed by the Son of God. So have you. In fact, you have no idea what you mean to Jesus. First, because you're His one-of-a-kind creation. In the words of the Bible, "We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:10). You are very special to Jesus. He made you. But not only are you His unique creation, you are His very expensive purchase. When Jesus went to that brutal cross, it was literally to die in your place, to absorb all the guilt and all the death penalty for every sin you have ever sinned. He took your hell so you could go to His heaven. So no matter how excluded or unimportant or lonely you may feel, the most important person in the universe never stops thinking about you; never stops loving you. Every time Jesus looks at His hands He sees the nail prints left by the price He paid for you because He loves you so much. The question isn't whether Jesus has noticed you, it's whether you have noticed Him. That woman in the Bible received what Jesus had because she reached out in faith to Him. Has there ever been a time when you reached out to Jesus and said, "Lord, You are my only hope of knowing God, of being forgiven, of going to heaven. I'm yours." You'll never experience His love or His life until you do. If you want to begin your relationship with this One who loves you as no one else ever has? Well, tell Him that now where you are. And I'd love to walk you through how to be sure you belong to Him at our website, which is there for that very reason. Check it out today - ANewStory.com. Even while you've been too busy to notice Jesus, He's been reaching out to you. Today His nail-scarred hand is reaching your way one more time. Please, don't miss Him.

Top Ten from 2024: #7 Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen   *DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults   Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen   1 Corinthians 7:3 (AMP) “The husband must fulfill his [marital] duty to his wife [with good will and kindness], and likewise the wife to her husband."   **Transcription of original episode**  BONUS: Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen   Dr. Jennifer Konzen is a certified sex therapist, award winning researcher, and international speaker who lives in San Diego, California. She and her husband Time have four kids. She has been a parent educator, a marriage, parenting, and sexuality seminar and conference speaker, and yes, a Broadway showtimes performer (her undergraduate degree is in Musical Theater and Vocal Performance).    Dr. Jennifer Konzen's Website    Art of Intimate Marriage by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen   Redeemed Sexuality by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen   Intimate Marriage Cards by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen   The Gottman Institute   hotholyhumorous.com   christianfriendlysexpositions.com   christiannymphos.org    Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website.   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2024: #8 Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow   Matthew 18:3 (NIV) "And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."   **Transcription of original episode**  230. Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow   Questions and Topics We Discuss: As our children grow up, what wisdom can you share for both participating in and refraining from sports in childhood? Do you have any counsel for us as we navigate the teen years, especially as it relates to technology and friendships or relationships? If we do find ourselves in a child-centered family today, what are a few practical steps to move us in the direction of God's actual vision for our family and our marriage?   Dr. Rob Rienow married Amy in 1994 and they have been blessed with 7 children. His most important ministry is loving his wife and leading his children to know God and love Him. Rob's mom came to Christ shortly after he was born so he was blessed to be introduced to Jesus at an early age. His parents divorced when he was in high school and God used that painful time in his life to give him a heart for young people and families going through dark times. He attended Wheaton College, then completed an MA in theology at Wheaton College Graduate School, an MDiv from Trinity International Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry in Christian Leadership from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.    Rob's life dramatically changed in 2004. God brought him to a place of deep repentance over the fact that he was disciplining other people's children, but not his own. He was a spiritual leader at church, but passive with his family. Through that time of repentance, God turned his heart to the ministry of his children and his wife. God then led He and Amy to launch Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry designed to inspire parents and grandparents to disciple their children, to help couples create mission driven-marriages, and equip churches to build Bible-driven ministries. Their mission is to build the church through a global reformation of family discipleship.   He shares the biblical message of family discipleship at national and international conferences for parents, couples, and church leaders. He partners and consults with numerous churches, encouraging them to accelerate evangelism and discipleship through families.   Continue Learning from Dr. Rob Rienow: Visionary Family Website Family Vision Podcast Books and Resources by Dr. Rob Rienow   Other Episodes on The Savvy Sauce with Dr. Rob Rienow: 87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow Special Patreon Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow   Other Episode Recommended from The Savvy Sauce: 228 Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships with Joey Odom   (When you get your Aro Box, use code SAVVY for 1 month off a prepaid annual membership & 2 months off a two year membership)   Thank You to Our Sponsor: BELAY (Text SAVVY to 55123 before June 30th, 2025 to receive your amazing, limited-time, special offer!!!)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2024: # 9: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder   Disclaimer: This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.   Ephesians 4:31+32 “Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”   **Transcription of original episode** Special Patreon Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder   Dave Carder serves as Pastor of Counseling Ministries at First Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton, CA.   His specialty is Adultery Recovery and Prevention for which he has appeared on numerous media outlets including The Oprah Winfrey Network, Discovery Health, and The Learning Channel, The Tony Robbins Passion Project, Ladies Home Journal, USA Today, The Counseling Connection, and various other magazines and journals.  He has taught at various universities and seminaries world wide, and has done training for both the US Navy and Army.   He is the author or co-author of Torn Asunder: Recovering from an Extramarital Affair, Close Calls: What Adulterers Want You to Know About Protecting Your Marriage, and Unlocking Your Family Patterns: Finding Freedom from a Hurtful Past. He holds the Michigan Limited License for Psychology and the California Marital and Family Therapy license, and has graduate degrees in Biblical Literature and Counseling Psychology.   Dave and his wife, Ronnie, have been married over 50 years, and have four adult children and eight grandchildren. More info is available at www.DaveCarder.com   At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.   Anatomy of an Affair by Dave Carder   Torn Asunder by Dave Carder   Torn Asunder Workbook by Dave Carder   Close Calls by Dave Carder   Schedule an appointment with Dave Carder HERE   Dave Carder's Website, Including FREE video series on recovering from extramarital affair   How We Love Website   5 Love Languages Website   Couple Talk Website   Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass   Thank You to Our Sponsor: BELAY (Text SAVVY to 55123 before June 30th, 2025 to receive your amazing, limited-time, special offer!!!)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

263. Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack   Mark 10:27 NKJV "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”   **Transcription Below**   Questions and Topics We Discuss: Will you teach us about the various types of abuse? How do we respond appropriately and in a Christ-like manner when someone does report abuse? What are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to each type of abuse?   Stacey Womack is an award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She founded Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services (ARMS) in 1997 and she is a published author and sought after national speaker. Stacey developed and wrote the curriculum used for ARMS programs, including Her Journey for survivors of abuse and Mankind and Virtue for men and women who have used abusive behaviors. She has assisted tens of thousands of people in recovering from both the receiving and giving of abuse. Her passion has grown ARMS, a small grassroots organization, to now having an international reach.   Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services Website Stacey's Books   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Grace Catering   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick 148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:50) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.    For anyone who feels like they don't have time to cook, but they still desire to have meals that taste just like grandma's, I can't wait to share more about one of my favorite sponsors, Grace Catering Company. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.   Stacey Womack is my guest today. She is the award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She is the founder of Abuse Recovery Ministry and Services, which she will refer to as ARMS, and she's also the author of this practical and helpful resource entitled On the Front Lines of Abuse, Strategies for the Faith Community.   Stacey fearlessly answers questions today about what defines abuse, what steps can we take today to discover if we're in an abusive relationship, what does the Bible have to say about abuse and divorce, and so much more. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.   Stacey Womack: Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.    Laura Dugger: Would you mind just starting us off by giving us a current snapshot of your phase of life?   Stacey Womack: (1:52 - 2:48) Sure. You know, I've been doing this work for 27 years, but actually I grew up in a pastor's home and married young and had my children young. I have six children, and I have my 13th grandchild on the way, and my first great-grandchild is due in December. And in the midst of homeschooling my kids back in the day, God began to speak to me about ministry that he had for me.   And so, this was the door he opened, even though I'm not a survivor of abuse. And back then I never had planned on starting a nonprofit or, you know, having it be the way it is, never planned on having an income off of it. None of that was a part of the plan.   I was just being obedient to what God had called me to do. And so here we are today, 27 years later, providing services nationally and internationally to victims and survivors of abuse and also working with those who use abusive and controlling behaviors.   Laura Dugger: (2:50 - 3:12) Wow. And abuse is something that's so difficult to understand, and it's a topic that's easy for us to want to avoid. But I appreciate you bringing awareness to this topic that affects more people than we would ever suspect.   So, will you just teach us the various types of abuse?   Stacey Womack: (3:12 - 12:56) Sure. So, I'll try to go through them fairly briefly for you, but most of the time they only give you a few, but we have eight different areas of abuse that we talk about. So, you know, most people get physical abuse.   That's how most people define domestic violence and abuse is physical, which is all the things from hitting, pushing, slapping, grabbing, strangulation, which is something that's very dangerous. And a person's at risk of dying days and weeks after being strangled, even months after being strangled. So, it's a very serious crime.   Most states it's a felony. But every category has those things that aren't as obvious. So, in physical, it would be like posturing where someone stands up or takes a step towards you, it's right in your space.   The most common form of abuse is psychological, though. This is what is often called emotional abuse by most people. So psychological abuse, I kind of divided into three categories.   The largest one is the crazy making the mind games, the mental coercion, the gaslighting, all those things. And that's very, very hard to explain to people. And it doesn't look like abuse.   It looks like non-memorable conflict oftentimes and gets misdiagnosed that way, I guess you could say. And it's the form of abuse that women say is the hardest to heal from because bruises heal. But the emotional ones that psychological abuse causes can take years and years to heal from.   So also, another big category besides the mind games is the isolation. So, keeping them from friends and family could be outright telling them not to spend time with friends and family, or it could be, you know, allowing them to go spend time with friends and family, but then they pay for it later. So, there's some type of punishment for doing that.   Moving her from place to place, or church to church, to keep her from having any kind of support. So that's very common. And then another category in here, and I'm just keeping them very brief, is stalking behaviors, which stalking should be taken very seriously because 75% of those who commit homicides are stalkers.   So, this is everything from following, showing up uninvited, not leaving when asked, to the use of spyware, which is often free or cheap. So, you know, those air pods, they drop them in people's purses or put them in places in their car or whatever, just so they can follow them where they're going, those types of things. And among our younger generation, a common stalking behavior would be multiple calling and multiple texting.   So, the second closest that comes to emotional abuse would be verbal abuse. And most of us get the types of verbal abuse that are obvious, the yelling, the swearing, the name calling, the, you know, put downs. I mean, things that are really obvious.   And this is a huge category and not well understood because we have all used some verbal abuse in our lives. So, everything down to things that are more subtle, like the silent treatment as a way to control the conversation or sarcasm, which is actually means the tearing of flesh. So, it's not a healthy way to communicate.   There's a little bit of truth to it. That's what makes it funny. But it's always at someone's expense.   And we live in a pretty sarcastic world. And I, myself, can be pretty sarcastic at times after really watch that because it's really not a kind way to communicate. So, again, this is a huge category.   So, we have verbal, psychological, physical, financial, lots of financial control and abusive relationships. Most of our men who are abusive use financial control. So, he's making all the financial decisions.   He's controlling the finances, or he allows her to have some access to finances, but not all by  hiding assets and hidden accounts, things like that. Or maybe making her handle all the finances while he goes out and misspends. So, then it's her fault.   And now he has a reason to abuse her. And even once they separate, financial abuse continues by not paying a spousal or child support. So, I tell our women to not depend on that, do what they need to do legally, but not to depend on it because it's very hard to get that money back.   So, we have verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual, which people get that one too. Rape, unwanted touch, attacking body parts, making her dress a certain way or not dress a certain way. It could include extreme jealousy, which is, again, goes right back into those stalking behaviors.   So, it's these pornography affairs, sexual name calling or sexual putdowns or sexual jokes. Again, another really big category. So that a lot of times some more subtle things that people don't recognize as being abusive because a lot of people use it, like the sexual name calling or sexual using sexual cuss words.   So, I always have to go through those verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual property. We don't always think about property being abusive. But if an abuser can convince his victim that he's dangerous, he never has to be physical.   And so, he might punch the hole right next to your head. I had a woman tell me this. And then he saw the fear in her face, and he said, “What? I didn't even touch you.” But the message was, this is what could happen to you. So, property is not always it can include, but it is not always the breaking of things or throwing things.   It could be slamming doors, slamming hands on the table. But it could also be moving property to make her think she's going crazy. So, she has a place she keeps her keys. He moves them to make her think she's going crazy, that she can't remember where she's putting things anymore.   So, you always have an overlap in an abusive event. It's never just one form of abuse unless it's just psychological and very subtle. But property abuse also includes the use of weapons.   In the groups that we've been doing with men for the more than two decades that we've been working with them, usually they're not using the weapon there. It's the implied threat of use of weapons. So, we had one woman who went to her boyfriend's house, and he came out of his bedroom with a knife and laid it on the table and said, “I just don't know what I'd do if you left me.”   Or we had many guys in the program for tapping knives while they create and continue arguments with their partners. So, it could be any misuse of any property. It could even be gift giving to get her to comply back into the relationship.   So, it's not always what you think of when you think of like guns and knives. It doesn't have to be that way. It can be very subtle.   So then we have spiritual abuse, spiritual abuse. Since we're a faith-based organization, we talk about the misuse of scripture. So, he's using scripture to get her to comply, to get his way.   And God's word is a balance between judgment and love and mercy. And when you remove that love and they're just going with the judgment side of God's word, you are misusing God's word. It's not what God intended for his word.   He did not ever intend for the word to be weaponized against a person, especially in an intimate relationship. So, we talk about the difference between submission and oppression and how they are different from one another in our groups. It's also for our men who attend church regularly.   I always tell pastors, if you've got a man who's coming to you and he's working his way through the church leadership and he's being very humble and he's telling you that he knows he has his issue, but he's concerned for his wife that he's not really being abusive. That she just thinks he's being abusive to her because she's experienced abuse in the past or she has mental health issues or she's cheating on him, which is usually not true. They're doing this to discredit her while they're doing what we call public image management to make themselves look good to the public.   So, they're involved in all kinds of things. It may be on the church council. So, you know, when they tell their church leadership this, it's hard to believe.   It's hard for them to believe when she comes forward and says this is what's actually going on in my relationship because they've not experienced that from him. He's been a great guy around them. So, questioning her theology, her salvation, keeping her from going to church, making her go to church, moving her from church to church, things like that, too.   And then the last one is animal abuse. And of course, we think about harming animals. And of course, when you harm an animal, that is animal abuse.   But in terms of the work we do, it's about using the animal to control the person in some way. And that might include the threat to get rid of it, the threat to harm or the threat to kill or the doing of those things or neglecting, not like not feeding or watering the pet. But it could also be things like getting a pet she's allergic to or afraid of or withholding affection from her while he's being overly affectionate to the pet.   We have lots of women who tell us about that. So, again, it's not about necessarily harming the pet as much as it is about using the pet to gain control. You have to remember that abuse is about power and control and abuse means the misuse of.   So, anything can be misused, not just physical hitting and punching and misuse of our strength, but anything can be misused. And when it's used to gain power and control in an intimate relationship. It's a pattern; that's when you're looking at someone who has an abusive personality.   Laura Dugger: (12:57 - 13:27) Wow. Thank you for laying that foundation and expanding our definition. It sounds like so many sins, domestic violence can be insidious, and it can usually begin with a very charming spouse who eventually becomes more and more abusive.   So, have you found that people more easily recognize when they're in an abusive relationship or is it surprising and confusing to them?   Stacey Womack: (13:28 - 16:58) It's mostly confusing and surprising, maybe in that order. You know, since I work with these men, too, there are really great things about them. There's really good qualities I see in them.   And that's what these women fall in love with, these really great qualities. And these men can be extremely charming. And even if you haven't been raised in abuse and you find yourself in an abusive relationship, sometimes it's because you were in a really vulnerable place when you got involved.   And it just felt really good to have somebody come in and be so big and strong and great in your life. Or there's other times guys are just so good at this that they're just believe completely. There's no reason not to believe, right?   I mean, you trust somebody because you expect them to be telling you the truth. So, it usually starts off very subtle and it gradually increases. So, he might start questioning.   So, is that what you're going to wear? Or, you know, well, that's a lot of makeup. Or maybe, you know, telling her that he doesn't agree with something that she agrees with and that maybe her friends and family aren't good for her and maybe she needs to distance herself from them.   We've had women tell us that that happens to them. So, we have a checklist on our website under am I in an abusive relationship, basically. And underneath that, there's actually a PDF that they can print out and check off.   And it usually starts off with things like, are you surprised by his anger? Does his anger scare you? You know, and then we work down to more obvious forms of abuse.   But when a woman goes through that list and it's actually degenerate. So, a male or a female could go through the list. And they could go through it and they could determine, am I experiencing a pattern of these behaviors in my life?   Marriage should be the safest place for you. And when it's not, there's something wrong there. And we do work with women who are abusive.   So, I do want to acknowledge that there are male victims out there. And when they call us, since we don't have a group for them, because perpetrators believe they are the victims. So, if I opened a men's victim group, I would get a room full of perpetrators.   Male victims tend to say very similar things to our female victims and behave in very similar ways that our women behave as well. And so, we refer them out to counselors that we trust. And, you know, and women can be what we call primary aggressors in the relationship.   And they act and talk and say the same kinds of things as our male primary aggressors. And most primary aggressors are male because it just works better for them. They're bigger, they're stronger, they're given privilege that women are not given.   So, it just works better for them. But there are women out there who do that. And then there's those relationships where both parties are using abused.   But one is a primary and one is a secondary. It doesn't make the abuse okay. It doesn't even make it okay when you or I say something or act in a way that disregards or disrespects another person.   That's sin. So, I think that we need to be really honest with the fact that this is a human issue. And that it's okay to come out and say, you know what, I have a problem with this.   And I need help. And that's what we're trying to offer for both the men and the women that we serve.   Laura Dugger: (16:59 - 17:21) And I'm just simplifying it. But in my mind, when you talk about primary and secondary, it makes me think for that secondary person, just simply hurt people, hurt people. So, is that what you're talking about?   Where they are not the initiators of the abusive behavior, but when they are abused over time, they respond with abusive patterns as well?   Stacey Womack: (17:21 - 19:17) Yeah, abuse is a learned behavior. So, if they grew up in a home where abuse was present, you know, as much as you don't like some of those negative things that we all get from growing up, we get good things and bad things. We often end up repeating them until we learn something different. And so, some of our women in our secondary aggressors program, you know, have had to fight their entire life to survive.   And sometimes it's just safer to be the aggressor than it is to be the victim. And so, a lot of times when women are using abusive behaviors, it's more about trying to be heard or it's payback. So, they don't really gain power and control from their abuse, not really.   It's usually when they're abusive, the women are just getting payback for what their abuser did. So, one woman, her and her husband had an argument and he's this big guy. And so, to get back at him, we would call this properly anal and psychological.   She took the pillow and rubbed it all over the cat because he's allergic to cats and put the pillow back on the bed so he'd wake up with puffy eyes. It's a very passive form of abuse, but it is a way to get back at him. And then we have those women who just fight back verbally and they can.   I had this little gal, not probably hardly even 100 pounds. She could bring a 200 pound, six foot tall husband to his knees with just her words. And this is a woman who had to fight her entire life.   So, you know, you can see there's times where relationships where there's more. I don't really like the word mutual, but there's they're both using abusive behaviors, but it's the only way they know how to live life. And so, the women come out of this program saying, now I understand that his abuse to me does not excuse my abuse to him.   And I have power to make choices that will bring change to my life. And that's a powerful place to be much more powerful than being a victim.   Laura Dugger: (19:18 - 19:45) Absolutely. And I think the hope that I'm hearing is when you say abuse is a learned behavior. Does that mean we can learn our way out of it as well?   So, anyone who is in an abusive relationship or is finding if they're listening to this, maybe they find out that they are the abuser, you can learn your way out of it then?   Stacey Womack: (19:45 - 21:27) You can. It takes a tremendous amount of work. But both the victim and the perpetrator or the survivor, they have to learn new tools, both of them, because we have women who get out of abusive relationships who find themselves right back into another abusive relationship.   The tools that women use in abusive relationships are amazing. The ways that they do things to survive the abuse is absolutely amazing. But those same tools do not serve them well once they're out of abuse.   Some of them get into healthy relationships, but they're still using those old tools that they picked up during the abusive relationship. And so, they come to group a recovery group so that they can heal from that and learn a new way and let go of that pain and hurt and learn behavior so that they can also be healthy in that relationship with that new partner. So, and he also and for the abuser, someone who's like this is they've been the primary aggressor in the relationship and they have a lifetime of picking up belief systems that have given them permission to behave that way.   And that doesn't change in 12 weeks. Programs for those guys and those gals should be long; thirty-six weeks the absolute minimum. I think a year or even two years is better because you need practice to sustain change. We have lots of guys who change, but getting that sustained change takes lots of accountability and lots of hard work.   And it's difficult to do. But we have those stories of couples that make it. There's a lot more that don't make it.   All the men make some changes, but often not enough to save the relationship. So, it varies.   Laura Dugger: (21:27 - 23:38) And now a brief message from our sponsor, Grace Catering Company in North Peoria offers a rotating menu of scrumptious meals for you to take home and pop in your own oven with family friendly options like lasagna, bacon wrapped meatloaves, chicken Alfredo pasta, breakfast burritos and creamy garlic chicken breasts. Your homemade dinner will be on the table in no time. They also offer healthier and lighter options as well as some gluten-free and keto-friendly choices.   The meals are packaged in a variety of sizes, which makes it perfect for individuals or couples, or they have portions large enough to feed the entire family. Their menu is on a six-week rotation. You can stop by for a grab and go lunch with their signature sandwiches, salads, soups or quinoa bowls depending on the season.   I also recommend you top off your meal with one of their sweet treats, such as their popular scotcheroos, iced sugar or chocolate chip cookies, or their cookie of the month. The founder and owner Renee Endres has also created my all-time favorite cookbook. My grandparents actually gave this to me as a gift when I was a newlywed and it has been put to great use for the past decade and a half.   The recipes are easy and approachable and the feedback from our family and from guests we've hosted in our home has always been positive when the meal came from Renee. When I've gifted this cookbook to friends, they will commonly remark how these are also the most delicious desserts they've ever tasted. Our extended family also loves to use the take and bake options on Sunday afternoons, which allows us to enjoy a delectable meal while still getting to enjoy a true Sabbath.   Grace Catering Company is located just off Alta Lane in North Florida. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.    Well, and with your programs, what are some of the things that you do offer for someone who finds themselves in an abusive relationship?   Stacey Womack: (23:40 - 28:08) Yeah, so our largest program is called Her Journey and it's a victim survivor recovery program. So, it doesn't matter what form of abuse you experienced or are experiencing. It could be years ago even.   And we have this, it's a 15 week program, but we lead it year-round so you can just start immediately. It's one of the things that we found out as we've been doing this national campaign is that we're the only ones that we've found that are free. It's a free program.   We have Zoom. So, we have every day of the week covered. If we don't have something right in your own state, in your county.   But we're in-person groups in 21 states right now and looking to lead more or teach more leaders how to lead the program in their community, or in their centers, or in their missions. They're often held in churches. It's all confidential.   The women just call in. They don't have to give us their real name. They don't have to give us any information.   They don't want to. We just ask whatever name they use. They keep using the same name so we don't care if they say their name is Minnie Mouse.   That's fine with us. Just so that we can keep track of it for grant purposes. But in that group, it's not a process group.   It's really about hearing God's heart around this issue. And they do get training around domestic violence. But we also go through other topics like dealing with anger, depression and loneliness and just all the different things that happen throughout this process.   Learning how to appropriately boundary set and what to do and what's going to work with an abuser. What's not going to work with an abuser. Those types of things. And so, we found that we just keep it open so the women can join immediately. Because if we don't help them right when they're asking for the help, we'll lose them because the abuser will very quickly work to move them back into the relationship, which is part of the cycle of abuse. And because we want the relationship to work and we want to believe him, we do.   And so, women, you know, leave on average seven times before they leave for good because we don't get into a relationship to see it in. And so, when I talk and train pastors and I had a pastor say, “Well, she's just looking for a way out.” I'm like, “No, that's not true.”   These women do everything, including couples counseling, which is something that does not work when abuse is the issue and power control is the issue. And most pastors that I haven't heard of any seminary that actually does a whole course on domestic violence, they get a little bit of couples counseling and that's it. And even counselors don't get trained in domestic violence.   So, this is only a very small portion of counselors. So, I would tell these women, if you're listening to this now, that they shouldn't do couples counseling, but they should look for a counselor who has 40 hours of victim advocacy training from an advocacy agency and that he needs to go work on his own issues with an agency that deals with domestic abuse intervention. And a lot of times the things that she thinks, or they both think, they need couples counseling for go completely away once he does the work he needs to do.   So, the communication problems, the anger issues, all those things that they think are the cause are no longer an issue. Most of our couples don't even need couples counseling after this because he has learned to love like Jesus loves. That's what we teach is like, what does that mean to be Christlike?   What does that mean to lay your life down? So, but during our time that we work with women or men, secondary or primary aggressors, female or male, we in our groups talk about focusing on that themselves and their relationship with God and not focusing outward because God will take care of that. Sure, pray about it, but release it.   That's God's responsibility. You only have control of this relationship is between yourself and God. And that's where you're going to seek Him about what He's calling you to do in this situation.   And every person's a little bit different. It's not my place to tell someone whether to leave or stay. And we're not here to promote divorce.   And we know the women want their relationships to work. We know they want men to make it to the other side. We do, too, but we cannot make that happen.   So, all we can do is present the information and allow the Holy Spirit to do the work. And the person has to be willing to receive the help.   Laura Dugger: (28:09 - 28:35) Absolutely. Well, and I even think about how this conversation came about. We had multiple women of different ages, all of them believers, who were reaching out and sharing a little bit of their experience in marriage and sharing some potential abuse.   And I actually reached out to some publicists that I work with and said, “Who would be able to speak to this?” And so that's how we got connected.   Stacey Womack: (28:36 - 28:36) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (28:36 - 28:54) Very much appreciated your book. And as I was reading it, there was one story that was particularly haunting. And it was about a pastor who ended up begging you for training.   So, can you recall what happened?   Stacey Womack: (28:54 - 34:09) Yeah. You know, a lot of pastors just it's not that they don't care. It's just that they're very uneducated around this.   So even myself, when I first started, I would give people really unhelpful advice before I even began this work because I didn't understand it well. And so, he had encouraged this woman to forgive and go back, which is a typical response. You know, submit more, pray harder.   Those are the kinds of things that a lot of women get from churches. And so, she did. She went home and then he murdered her that night.   And so, this pastor was absolutely heartbroken, as you can imagine, and was calling in and asking, please, please, please train us because we don't want this to ever happen again. You know, and honestly, there are some pastors out there that believe that women should stay in the relationship, even if they are being abused and that God will bless them through their suffering, even if it means death. I don't agree with that.   See, I think that God would never sacrifice a person for the sake of the relationship. But we do as the church sometimes because we're so concerned about the relationship. The relationship is important and God has got a reconciliation and we want reconciliation, too.   But God also tells us the prudent man or woman hides from danger and he cares about us as individuals. And He has called us to live life abundantly, not to just bear it, you know. And so, I think that we need to really look at that.   And being raised as a pastor's daughter that, you know, I was taught that way. So, it was a really it's been really hard, you know, working in the faith communities really struggles with this. And, you know, this idea that, well, a separation might lead to divorce.   But separation is really functional in these relationships because she needs safety so that she can talk, speak the truth from this other person. And she needs time to see whether or not he's willing to actually get the help that he's been promising he'll get. And they need time to see if he can actually work through that.   Or is he just using a program as another controlling behavior to get her to come back into a relationship? If she waits long enough and we usually say six months and he's mad that she's not letting him back home. He goes right back to all the bad behaviors he was doing before.   And he pulls all the money out of the bank and does all these crazy things. And she has her answer, which is heartbreaking. The women are heartbroken over this because they want their relationships to work.   We cannot emphasize that enough to the faith community. These women want their relationships to work and that they did not sign up for this. They did not sign up for these.   They did not say, “Oh, yes, I am agreeing to get married and be abused.” That's how they agreed to. And he made a promise to love and cherish.   And the Bible commands men to love their wives like Christ loves the church and to lay his life down. That means he gives up his way to bless her, that Jesus came to serve, not to be served. So, his role is one of being the lead servant in the relationship.   He should be the first to be serving her. And how do we respond as women? We feel loved and cherished and cared for when that happens.   My husband's so good at this. I have to be careful if I say I'm thirsty, he's up getting me a glass of water. He's so quick to serve.   But this is the kind of behavior that blesses us. And men are surprised that the very thing they want, the respect, honor, all those kinds of things. They get it by doing the very opposite of what they're doing, by giving up their way, by embracing humility.   And humility is hard because it means it's not about being 50-50 or being fair. It's about going 100 percent or more. So, my husband would share because he leads manuscripts with me.   And he says, you know, guys, you know, if Stacy's at 20 percent, then I need to go 180. I need to go in and fill in that gap for her. And there's times I do that for him, too, because unhealthy relationships like that's what we do for women.   But an abusive relationship, that's never what happens. And an abuser has and this is very popular, a narcissistic view of his world. He may not realize that it doesn't mean he has narcissistic personality disorder.   Those guys are very different and they stick out sore thumbs, but they all behave narcissistic, narcissistically, meaning their world revolves around them. So, they want you to manage their emotions. They blame you for when they're unhappy.   And even if you weren't even present, when whatever happened, that he's unhappy that he still blames you for it, which doesn't make sense. It's that crazy making. It's like, “Wow, how am I the cause of this when this happened at work? I don't understand.” You know, so there's all that craziness that goes on.   But, you know, I'm so honored to get to walk alongside men and women in their process of change and their aha moments and their realization that God loves them and that God values them and that they're important and they're regarded. And that because of that, abuse is never OK. It's never OK.   Laura Dugger: (34:10 - 35:21) The few follow ups with that, then to go back to an earlier point, you're making a connection for me where I'm thinking back to a few episodes. It was one was with Leslie Vernick and one was with Dr. Diane Langberg. So, I can't remember who said this.   I can link to both in the show notes, but it's what you're speaking to that as we study the scriptures and we see Christ likeness and how to become more Christ like and what God really says about these topics. They were pointing out he cares about the individual more than the institution. Yeah.   And so, I think there's a lot of re-education for us in the faith community, unfortunately. But then also two follow up questions. One, as you're talking about narcissism or a narcissistic outlook, is there ever from your experience?   I'm familiar with some of my friends who are in relationships like that or acquaintances that I know. Is there ever hope for the husband who has narcissistic tendencies or personality disorder to repent? Have you ever seen that?   Stacey Womack: (35:21 - 37:16) Absolutely. We have men who've done a really great job of working away from being self-focused and selfish. That's really what it is.   They read these journals and we make comments on them and they have to come up with the beliefs that gave them permission to behave this way. So, we had one guy and you could just see a selfishness that I always wrote. The belief is I'm most important.   I've read it every on every single journal. And he finally came to group after a few months because I really realize I'm really selfish. And so, as we help them to see this, it begins to change things and they begin to make different choices and try new things.   As someone who has a narcissistic personality disorder, like any personality disorder, those are not medicated. They can't be medicated and it takes a longer time. So, I've had some training on narcissistic personality disorder and I recognize those guys.   Any of those guys generally with personality disorders because they don't see themselves. So, the group laughs at things I say, but they don't understand why they're laughing. And those guys need like seven years of counseling with someone who specializes in narcissistic personality disorder.   If they're willing to do the work that that they can actually make changes. And there's a gentleman who who's travels the country speaking on this. He says that's his favorite group of population he works with.   I can't say the word narcissistic personality disorder men. And he says, you would like this man today. But he had like multiple failed businesses.   He'd been very successful, but they're failing businesses, failing marriage. And he worked with them and you don't work with them the same as just typical counseling. It's not the same because they don't see themselves.   So, we need more people who specialize in that.   Laura Dugger: (37:16 - 38:12) I agree with you there. And it's just helpful to have that reminder of hope. Even this morning in my quiet time, I was reading in the Gospels and it was Jesus saying and everything he says is true.   That with man, it seems impossible, or it is impossible. But with God, we know that all things are possible. So, appreciate the way you answered that.   And then also a follow up would be we heard that awful story of what happened with the physical safety when you're looking at physical abuse. But then, Stacey, would you recommend wives have the same boundaries? Are they taking time away to physically protect themselves if there's any type of abuse?   If there is financial abuse, let's say, are they given the same recommendations as somebody who is in an emotionally abusive relationship?   Stacey Womack: (38:13 - 40:49) Well, the emotional abuse is always there. You don't have any other forms of abuse without emotional abuse. So, our women, we talk about boundary setting and different boundaries they can begin trying.   But oftentimes the only boundary that actually works to be able to say for us to be able to make it, you need to go get help. And while you're getting help, we need to be separated so they're not focusing on one another. So not all of our women separate.   Some of the women try to work through it while he's still in the home. My experience is that it slows the process down, extremely slows the process down because they're still focusing on one another. And he's coming home and he's sharing with us how great the program is.   But then he's going home and he's angry and he's taking it out on her. So, it creates some unsafety for her. And I just want to say this because I think a lot of people don't understand that there's physical safety and then there's emotional safety.   And we downplay the emotional safety. But emotional safety is as important as physical safety. So, I have some pastors who think that if we share things like this, that we're going to be making victims.   That's not true. I don't relate to the books that are out there. You know, oh, yeah, I've experienced that.   It's not going to make victims. You either relate to it or you don't. But this emotional safety might mean needing to separate from that person.   Not because you fear their physical abuse when you haven't been physical. But a lot of our women say he's never been physical, but I'm fearful of him. And so in order for her to get some healing and some help while she waits to see whether or not he gets help and she's really hoping he will.   She needs that space. And so, yes, I think that in a lot of scenarios, separation is a key. And then we have some couples where the where the husband does is not willing to do the work he needs to do, but he's not controlling the finances.   So, they remain married but separated for the rest of their lives. Not very many couples can do that because most abusers are going to control finances. So, but that's why I was saying it's not our place to tell a woman to leave or to stay.   That's not our job. It's our job to walk alongside them when they seek God for what they should be doing and what boundaries they should be setting. And they can try a lot of different things before it gets to that point.   And it just there's no easy answer for this.   Laura Dugger: (40:50 - 41:05) It's very complex. Yes, it's very complex. But even when you say there's a lot of things they could try.   Could you give a few examples or is there a place on your website where they can go to get some ideas and some help for those earlier stages?   Stacey Womack: (41:06 - 43:43) Well, we talk about this in our journey class again, which is free. You can join at any time in our class on boundaries. And so, it depends on the severity of abuse that's going on.   But most women, when there has been physical abuse, will start off with things like and we talk about a boundary has to have a consequence. Otherwise, it's not really you can't. It doesn't work.   But these men are boundary breakers. So, a boundary would be like saying, if you continue to yell at me and call me names, I'm going to leave and go to my friend's house. So, there's the boundary and there's a consequence for breaking.   But then we also realize when we're talking to them that he may decide at some point he's not going to let you leave. So now he's blocking the door. So, then it might be, you know, if you're going to treat me this way, I'm no longer going to cook meals or do your wash.   And it usually works its way down to I'm no longer going to have sex with you. I'm not going to sleep in the same room with you. And once you get to that point, the only other thing you can do is do a physical separation with the heart to actually reunite.   That's what these women want. And some of our couples have been separated for three years. But the husband is like, let her head home.   And he's doing his work and they're interacting again. But he doesn't move back home for three years because he's committed to giving her whatever space and time she needs to heal. Because he recognizes that he's the one that's caused unsafety.   And so, what is three years if you can have a healthy relationship for the rest of your life? And so that's what we were looking for our men to do. It's like even if you're disappointed, if she's saying, I'm not ready for you to move back.   And you can say, I feel disappointed, but you know what? I get it. And whatever you need, I'm willing to do that.   That's accountability. That's humility. And really, they need to have other men who are mentoring them to hold them accountable.   And again, not a lot of people are taught this. And so having the right mentor even for this is really important. Even a right counselor for them to work with their childhood issues.   But those are some ideas for some boundaries. Boundaries always have to have consequences. But even if a woman gets a protection order or restraining order, most of those are violated.   So, we tell the women be prepared to call the police when he violates it by texting you or by sending you a card with money in it or putting flowers on your car. Or coming to the church service that you put in the restraining order that he wasn't supposed to come to. So, you need to be ready to hold him accountable because the abuser doesn't believe you're going to actually follow through.   Laura Dugger: (43:43 - 44:32) Do you love The Savvy Sauce? Do you gain anything when you listen? Did you know that the two ways we earn money to keep this podcast live is through generous contributions from listeners and from our paying sponsors?   That means we can promote your business and you're still supporting The Savvy Sauce. It's a win-win. Please email us today at info@thesavvysauce.com to inquire about pricing for sponsoring each episode. Thank you for your consideration.    Well, and what if somebody is listening right now and they're automatically assuming, well, this isn't happening to anyone I know and it's certainly not happening in our church. What would you like to directly say to them?   Stacey Womack: (44:33 - 45:40) I'd like to let them know that statistically one in three women experience domestic violence, stalking, or rape by an intimate partner. And the statistics in the church are no less than they are outside of the church. So, every church has families in their church who look like the perfect couple.   When I started leading a group in my own church, I was so shocked. I kept telling myself, stop being shocked when I have another woman privately come up to me and tell me that they were in an abusive relationship because they just, they were involved, and they were just leading Sunday school. And they were, just look like this beautiful family and you would never have known.   There was no way to know that this was actually going on. So, you know, the reality is that it's happening. We're just not aware of it.   It wasn't on my radar before God called me into this work. I didn't think it was affecting my life. I didn't think of much thought.   But the reality is I feel like it's worse now than ever and not necessarily more physical abuse, but just abuse in general, the misuse of things to gain control.   Laura Dugger: (45:42 - 46:18) Well, and I appreciate the way you helped give a paradigm shift. You offered this on page 36 in your book and you quote saying, “At ARMS, we do not believe God considers domestic violence and abuse an adult issue. Instead, we believe he sees it as child abuse. We are his children.”   So, Stacey, with that in mind, how does this clarify how we can respond appropriately, and in a Christlike manner, when someone does report abuse?   Stacey Womack: (46:20 - 47:51) Well, I think a lot of times when women actually have the courage to tell you what's going on, it's a very courageous thing to do. She's risking a lot by telling you.   So, we really need to listen carefully and believe her. And I'm thinking about how, you know, that I'm trying to think now. How did you word your question so I can answer it correctly?   If you think about that example you gave, if your child was being beaten, harassed and abused in school and came home crying, you wouldn't just sit in your chair and say, go back and pray harder and win them over by your quiet and gentle spirit. We would go down and we would ask the school, what are you doing about this? Who's doing this and what are you doing about it?   And if they didn't do anything, we wouldn't think twice to remove our child from that environment. But in these situations where you're working with two adults, she may not be ready to leave. She's just sharing with you that this is going on.   She actually is hoping you'll go talk to him so that you'll fix him. But that is not a safe thing for you to do. And she may not realize that.   I tell pastors that all the time. You don't, but you're not going to go to him to check out her story or go talk to him like she's asked you to. Instead, you're going to go, what can we do for you right now?   Let's get you some help. And there'll be a time where we can address things with him. But right now is not that safe time.   So, let's get you connected with an organization that can help you give you the resources that you need to begin your journey of healing and discovering what God wants you to do.   Laura Dugger: (47:52 - 48:07) That's good. And also, this is a tricky question, but what are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to those types of abuse that you shared with us?   Stacey Womack: (48:08 - 50:27) Sure. You know, I think God understood that divorce would happen. That's why it got written into the law.   And it says, “Because it was the hardness of hearts.” So, it wasn't God's design. It wasn't the way God wanted it to be, but that there was made allowances for this.   And when people and women are often quoted, God hates divorce. They're not really giving the whole scripture and Malachi in the amplified version. It says, “God hates divorce and marital separation and him who covers his wife, his garment with violence. Therefore, keep a watch on your spirit, that it may be controlled by my spirit, that you deal not treacherously and faithfully with your marriage mate.”   So, we actually got some really good articles that go in depth on the original Hebrew, that Malachi verse was written in there. But, you know, I do believe that someone is breaking the marriage covenant to love, cherish, lay his life down for when they bring abuse to the relationship.   Again, God would wish and hope that we would humble our hearts, not be stiff necked and submit to Him and what he's trying to teach us and grow us in. But He does not force us. And so that leaves women in these situations very little choices if their husband is unwilling to get the help that he needs.   So, I am all for divorce. And I know that that marriage is hard. And my husband and I have been married for 44 years and we've gone through our struggles.   And there are times that I thought this isn't going to work. But you know what? We hung in there because we knew that for us, because it wasn't an abusive situation, that we need to stay in there and work on it.   And we did. And we're so glad we did. So, believe me, I'm not promoting divorce.   I just know that there has to be a place and known for it because of sin in the world. And again, it's heartbreaking and it destroys not just individuals, families, but our society is being destroyed by the breakdown of the family. And abuse is one of the most insidious things.   It starts in the home and it's cyclical. So, it's passed on from one generation to the next.   Laura Dugger: (50:29 - 50:38) Well, so, Stacey, how can we become more aware of abuse that is happening all around us? And what can we do that's genuinely helpful?   Stacey Womack: (50:40 - 52:13) Well, I think getting the education, you know, in my book that on the front lines of abuse strategies for the faith community, just a little book. But has a ton of information in it is a good place to start. And I have some do's and don'ts in there.   But, you know, I think that when you might recognize someone's being in an abusive relationship by the way her husband or whatever is speaking to her. But she doesn't see it because most victims would never call themselves a victim of abuse because they don't relate to that at all. That's not how they would define it.   So, I think sometimes just privately sharing with them. No, that behavior was really abusive. And she may not like that.   She might even get upset. But I think just being honest with the fact that this is going on. And I encourage pastors to preach about abuse and really abuse oppression.   And the Bible has a whole lot to say about oppression. There's already sermons out there that they can pull from. I suggest pastors preach on it twice a year.   So, October's domestic violence awareness month. And then maybe run Mother's Day again, not on Mother's Day, but around Mother's Day. Talk about it again, not as a caveat to relationships where it's just mentioned in a sermon, but an actual entire sermon on this issue.   And I can promise you that the church gets the education they need. They don't have to be experts, but they need to know what resources are out there for them and they make it safe. Both men and women will come forward and ask for help.   So, we need just to be a listening ear and care and ask how we can help.   Laura Dugger: (52:14 - 52:29) I think that's a good practical encouragement that you've shared. And I want to add all of these links in our show notes. So, is there anywhere else that we can go to after this conversation to continue learning from you?   Sure.   Stacey Womack: (52:30 - 53:32) We have our website that has a ton of information on it, abuserecovery.org. So, there's just so much on there. We have blogs and we have all kinds of information that the faith community can download for free.   Whether you're just in the community or you're a church leader, there's all kinds of things you can download. We have a pastor's packet. There's just we'll give you other books to read that you can do more education around this again.   I know as my father being a pastor, that pastors are busy enough. We're not asking pastors to do more than what they're doing. We're just asking them to be educated and know where they can send their people that's safe, where they're going to get sound and supportive help.   And to just be open to looking at things from a little bit different perspective. But our website just has so much on it that they can get for free. And again, our women's intervention groups, our recovery groups are free.   Laura Dugger: (53:33 - 53:49) Thank you for sharing that. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so, Stacey is my final question for you today.   What is your savvy sauce?   Stacey Womack: (53:50 - 54:39) What is my savvy sauce? You know, when I think about how God called me into this ministry in the end, no matter what we do, I think it's about obedience to God. And so, this was not on my radar.   I would never have chosen it. And so, for me, it's about being obedient to what God has called me to do, even when it's hard and even when it's unpopular. And walking in that so that when I stand before God, I can say I did what you asked me to, to the best of my ability, even with all my flaws.   So that's really, I think, my heart is to be that way. Be a leader like Moses, who God says he was the most humble man who ever lived. I'd love to be like that with the heart of David and the boldness of Paul and on and on and on.   Laura Dugger: (54:39 - 59:13) So, yeah, I love that. Well, I told you before we pressed record that I have experienced so much fruit of the spirit from you already with your gentleness. And this is not the first time we tried recording.   We prayed together that God would do immeasurably more than all we could ever ask or imagine through this conversation, because we had so many technical difficulties and even had to reschedule the date for this. But Stacey, I'm so grateful you persevered because you are well-spoken and you tackle this extremely difficult topic with wisdom and grace. And so, I'm very grateful I got to learn from you today.   And I believe God's going to continue working through you, even for the saving of many lives. So, thank you for your work and thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.    One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Re-Release: Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro   Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.    "So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things." Mark 6:32-34 (NIV)   **Transcription Below**   Questions and Topics We Discuss: How did your life with secret sin impact your connection with Jesus and what were some of those faulty beliefs you internalized that Christ later redeemed? How would you describe quiet time and its purpose? How does quiet time ripple out to effect everyone around us?   Naomi Vacaro is first and foremost a wholehearted follower of Jesus. She grew up as a daughter to missionaries in Outer Mongolia and then moved to Florida at the age of 18 to pursue a college degree. After graduating with a degree in graphic design, she worked as a wedding photographer and soon after felt led to create a journal called the Quiet Time Companion, along with an online ministry that would help Christians develop a daily habit of seeking Jesus. She now spends her time running the Wholehearted community and being a stay-at-home mom. She and her husband live in Florida with their son. Visit her online at wholeheartedquiettime.com or on Instagram.   At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.    Quiet by Naomi Vacaro   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh 259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:51) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.    Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at chickfila.com/East Peoria.    If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources.   We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.   My guest for today is Naomi Vaccaro, and she has wisdom beyond her years that she articulates beautifully in her faith journey. She's humbly going to share some highs and lows, and she's able to pull out ways that the Lord has called her to live in the light. And she has practical suggestions for ways we can do the same.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Naomi.   Naomi Vaccaro: (1:53 - 2:01) Hi, Laura. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here and just can't wait to dive into all this amazing conversation.   Laura Dugger: (2:02 - 2:10) Well, likewise, I feel the same. And will you start us off by just giving us a glimpse of your journey to becoming a Christ follower?   Naomi Vaccaro: (2:11 - 4:04) Yeah, absolutely. So, my story is probably very similar to many other believers who grew up in Christian homes. I know I'm not the only one who probably has a similar testimony.   But I was showed the gospel a thousand times in a hundred different ways over the course of many, many years. So, my coming to faith was definitely a slow blossoming over a long period of time. My first really memorable encounter with the Lord was when I was about seven years old.   I remember I was walking in the backyard of our home in Mongolia, which is where I grew up as a missionary kid. And during that evening, there was just this particularly beautiful sunset. And I just remember looking at the clouds in the sky and just seeing that sun dip below the horizon.   And I just knew my seven-year-old heart knew that God was real and that he was present and he saw me and he just loved me. And that was the first time I remember actually acknowledging him personally and really just wanting to be in a relationship with him. So, I would say that was when my journey of faith really started.   That's when it took root in my own heart, this longing for eternity. And then my understanding of the gospel was definitely limited to what a seven year old could grasp at the time. So, my relationship with Christ and the way I understood his grace, it deepened and it strengthened over time.   But I do believe that it was in that moment that I became committed to start the journey. And then it was just slow growth from there.   Laura Dugger: (4:05 - 4:48) I love it. Everybody's story is so personal to them, and it never gets old hearing how Christ has wooed people to himself. But in your new book, you write on page 15, I'm going to quote you saying, “My mom and dad took their role as parents even more seriously than their calling as missionaries.”   If there was one thing they persistently taught us as kids, it was that spending time with Jesus was a necessary part of everyday life. And so Naomi, as a mom myself with a similar conviction to create a spiritually vibrant home atmosphere, I would love to learn, how did your parents actually do that?   Naomi Vaccaro: (4:49 - 8:11) Yeah, that's a great question. I'm a mom myself now, and ever since becoming a mom, this is the question I just revisited over and over. And I'm just so grateful to have had the example that my parents gave to me.   And that's really what they did. So, my parents, first and foremost, they taught by example. Every morning without fail, my mom and dad would be the first ones up and they would each spend time with the Lord in their own routine, their own unique rhythm.   And so, it's funny, because for many years, I really thought that every other adult Christian had Bible time in the morning, just like my parents did. I thought it was just the thing adults did. And it wasn't until later in life that I realized how rare and special it was to have parents who sought the Lord so diligently and consistently.   They weren't just missionaries on the outside, you know, pastor on the outside. They had a private devotion to the Lord that was so vibrant and so real. And there was just no hypocrisy there.   Also, on the more practical side of things, I just also had the good fortune of being homeschooled, which allowed my parents a lot of flexibility and creativity with our education. So, one thing that my mom would do is every morning at around eight o'clock after we had all had breakfast, we would gather in the living room together. We would break open hymnals and sing some songs.   We would learn from a passage in scripture, and my mom would lead that time. Sometimes my dad would. And then we would pray together.   And then my mom would read a book out loud to all of us for about 30 minutes or so. And so that daily time, I just remember that being one of the most special parts of my childhood. And it was so enjoyable.   And I really think that it took the concept of a quiet time or seeking the Lord as one of the first things you did every day. It just made that rhythm really normal in my mind. So even now, it seems weird not to start my day with some kind of routine that welcomes the Lord into my day.   And I really attribute that to my mom and my dad and the way they educated us. So, my parents, they taught by example, and they integrated these beautiful rhythms into our lives at a very young age. So, if you are a parent and you really want that to become a reality in your home, just start first by creating this rhythm in your personal life.   Kids practice what we do, not just what we teach. They can sense hypocrisy very, very easily. And so, you first just need to make sure that you are devoting yourself to the Lord privately.   And they will see that and it will impact them. And then some of the ways you can bring your kids into your quiet time rhythm with you is you could have them sit next to you and have them read their own children's Bible as you read your Bible. And set aside a few minutes to pray with them every morning.   There are so many ways that we can start cultivating this culture in our home. But I really do believe that it all starts with our own sincere private devotion.   Laura Dugger: (8:12 - 9:01) That's really helpful to hear. And I like that progression of it begins with us and our commitment to our relationship with the Lord and growing there. But that's also helpful to see it play out that they kind of fed you through the hymns and through the Bible reading, but then also transferred that responsibility on to you to pursue that as well as you got older.   Something that really stood out when I read your book was your humility and vulnerability. So, I'm wondering if you can share a little bit more of your journey now. And specifically, how did your life with secret sin impact your connection with Jesus?   And what were some of those faulty beliefs that you internalized and Christ later redeemed?   Naomi Vaccaro: (9:03 - 14:43) Yeah. So, first of all, I just want to say, you know, this is where life happens. This is where things get real when we uncover our own failure, our own shame, when we bring it into the light.   This is just this is where God works. He works with humility. And that's why we should not be afraid to deal with these topics.   And so, I'm so excited to share my own story right now because I hope it will encourage someone else who might be listening. And it's something that I think we do need to talk about more in the Christian community. So basically, when I was eight years old, I was so young.   When I was eight years old, I was first exposed to pornography and erotica. And after that encounter, a secret sin of sexual fantasizing and seeking out more erotic content developed in my life. And this sin, the secret sin, did major damage to my walk with Jesus for a long time.   First of all, that's really what sin does, right? It separates us from God when we walk in a way that goes against his design, his good, good design for us. It destroys, it separates, it hurts.   And that's what it did for me for a long time. However, because of the grace of Christ, sin can only separate us from God if we let it. And so, I, at the time, I really did let my failure separate me from the grace of Jesus because I didn't really understand that the gospel applied to me as an already born-again Christian who struggled with sexual temptation.   I thought that you became a Christian because of the gospel, Jesus on the cross, the resurrection, the Holy Spirit, etc., etc. But deep down, I also really thought that once I was through the door of the gospel, that the Christian walk became up to me. So, every time I stumbled and fell into any kind of sin, but especially lust, because that was what I was so, so ashamed of, I would feel absolutely devastated.   And this was more than just a righteous conviction because it's good to feel devastated over our sin. This was a fear that I had somehow lost God's favor, lost his love, and particularly lost my salvation. I questioned my identity in Christ every time I stumbled in this way.   So, every time I would seek out this content and just give in to this inner sexual fantasizing, I would avoid having a quiet time for a few days because I really felt like I somehow had to do a penance, that I had to prove to God just how sorry I was. And so, this secret sin and the guilt that it gave me, it really did drive me away from Jesus, which I'm sure it just broke his heart because that is the last thing you want to do when you fall into sin is run away from God. And what's so sad is that I kept this in a secret for years.   I was eight when it started, and I was 13 when I finally got up the nerve to confess to my mother. I had prayed many times and confessed this sin to the Lord many times, but I wasn't seeing progress. I was still struggling, and I knew, I knew for years he was telling me, Naomi, you need to confess this to someone else.   You need to confess this to your mom. And I was so afraid of telling her that I was sinning in this way. I felt so dirty.   I felt so trapped and so terrified of losing her good opinion and the good opinion of anyone who would find out because I often equated the good opinion of others to love, especially as someone who's just a natural born people pleaser. But that morning when I finally confessed as a 13-year-old, the love and the grace that my mother showed me, it was the greatest reflection of the gospel I had ever experienced in my life up to that point. My sin didn't drive her away from me.   It actually drew her in closer, and that was the last thing that I expected. She embraced me. She came alongside me, and she made it clear that I was not the first or the last Christian to struggle with the sin of lust.   And she made me understand that I was not alone. And so, her reaction, it really did show me this fundamental truth, that our sin is what makes us absolutely irresistible to the compassionate heart of Christ. He hates sin because our sin is killing us.   But instead of casting us aside and pushing us away, he draws near in order to heal us. Jesus rushes to the side of a repentant sinner every single time. And that is what I learned through that journey of secret sin, wrestling inwardly, and then finally confessing in obedience to the Lord, confessing that sin to my mom.   Laura Dugger: (14:44 - 15:05) Wow. Thank you for bravely sharing that journey. That is such an encouragement.   And if someone is relating to your story, or maybe they're in the midst of their own experience of harboring some other form of secret sin right now, and it's creating distance between them and God, what encouragement would you like to offer them?   Naomi Vaccaro: (15:07 - 17:00) Yeah, so just run to Jesus. It all starts there. Just don't wait another moment.   Pause this episode if you need to. Hit your knees. Cry out to God.   Sin, it kills. It destroys. It separates us.   And the way we overcome sin is not by muscling our way through in our own strength. I've tried that. It doesn't work.   We have to combat sin by taking up the sword of surrender. We surrender ourselves to God, and then it becomes his strength that carries us through, that sets us free. So don't wait to confess.   Confess every single failure that's weighing on your soul. It doesn't define you in Christ. You are set free from his work.   So don't carry that garbage around anymore. Just don't do it. Jesus is so ready to embrace you, and it really is a lie that your sin makes you too dirty to approach him.   Jesus took care of that once and for all on the cross. So just like you embraced the gospel when you first became a Christian, now just cling to the gospel as you battle sin as a Christian. And then you can just ask yourself, you know, is there someone else that the Lord wants to bring alongside you in this struggle?   There's a reason why we are a body. There's a reason why we don't do the Christian walk alone, and that's because sin can't survive in the light, which is Christian accountability and confession. So, you will just be amazed at what God can do when you confess your sin to him and you make it known to other believers.   Just walk in that humility and trust that God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble.   Laura Dugger: (17:01 - 19:50) And now a brief message from our sponsor. Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right.   Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University. Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia.   This online self-paced program includes 13 associates degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees and two master's programs, including an MBA. College courses are fully transferable both in and out of this program. This could even be a great option to complete your general education courses and then transfer to the college of your choice and save money in the process.   So, if you're looking for an affordable college option while simultaneously gaining valuable work experience and earning an income, Chick-fil-A East Peoria is the place for you. You don't have to go into debt to get a great education. To apply today, please go to Chick-fil-A.com/East Peoria and click on the career tab. You can also call the restaurant at 309-694-1044 to find out more. And if you aren't located near Chick-fil-A East Peoria, make sure you check with your local Chick-fil-A restaurant to see if they also participate in the Elevate program with Point University. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Well, it's amazing to think about intimacy because the very first building block of intimacy is honesty. And so, I think you're just laying out such a biblical view of how to walk in freedom and intimacy with God and others by confessing and saying out loud what we're struggling with. And I know that the enemy will try whispering to us and lying and twisting things saying that this will lead to something worse or lead to more bondage.   And yet your story reveals the truth that it actually sets us free. As we continue to walk through your journey, you next experienced euphoria from having a clear conscience. And you channeled your newfound energy into a spiritual discipline that you said you most wanted to improve, which was your quiet time.   So how would you describe quiet time and its purpose?   Naomi Vaccaro: (19:51 - 21:24) Yeah, so quiet time refers to the activities of Bible reading and prayer. And its purpose really is wonderfully simple and yet deeply profound. Simply put, having a quiet time is relating to God.   In any relationship, there needs to be back and forth communication, right? Listening and talking, receiving and sharing. So, when you become a follower of Christ, you are entering into a relationship with the Almighty God.   That is what Christianity is all about. So, reading the Bible is essentially listening to God share His heart with you. That's how you are getting to know the other being, the other person on the other side of this relationship.   And prayer is how you share your heart with God. God wants you to share about yourself. He wants to know you.   And just because He's God and He already knows everything doesn't mean He doesn't enjoy that intimacy with us. He wants to relate to us just like we would relate to anybody else. So of course, there are many other good reasons to read the Bible and pray.   But this really is the foundation of what having a quiet time is all about. It's how we cultivate and nurture our relationship with God Himself.   Laura Dugger: (21:25 - 21:31) And what would you say to someone who feels like their quiet time has become stale or boring?   Naomi Vaccaro: (21:32 - 23:20) So first, don't be alarmed. I get so alarmed when my quiet time becomes boring and I start second-guessing everything. But over time I've learned that this happens to everyone, and it doesn't mean you're no longer a Christian.   So just don't worry. Search your heart definitely and try to find the reason behind this season. There could be something more serious going on.   For instance, when I was walking through sin for many years, that was a huge issue that kept me from experiencing a lot of genuine delight with the Lord. So, there could be something like that that is causing trouble. Or it could just be that you are in a season that is draining your joy.   You could be walking through suffering, a significant suffering. And that should not be surprising to us that our circumstances and our suffering affect how we relate to God and the feelings we experience there. So, no matter what the reason is, the answer is the same.   Keep coming back to Christ. Even when it feels boring, I promise you the feelings will follow in time. And there are also some practical things that you can do to shake things up and make your quiet time a little more interesting if it's really just that simple.   For instance, you can bring worship music into your routine. I love worship music and that always sparks a lot of joy and just praise. You can also go on a prayer walk around your neighborhood.   You can start a new Bible study or a book. Just don't take your own lack of feeling too seriously. And just trust me that as you remain faithful in the discipline, the delight will follow in time.   Laura Dugger: (23:21 - 23:58) And I think that even ties into what you were saying earlier about confessing or just bringing things into the light. It's such a joy to get to do this in community. So maybe even sharing with your spouse, if that applies to you, or a friend or a loved one, if this is a struggle.   And I think they can also help shed light on what's going on. But you mentioned the word season. And so, let's take this from a proactive stance then.   If someone has a big life change coming up, like a move or a wedding or a new child, how can they prepare to adapt their quiet time to a new season?   Naomi Vaccaro: (23:59 - 26:10) Oh man, the seasons that you mentioned, each one of those have always affected my quiet time. Especially becoming a mom. Just shout out to all the moms out there.   So, I would just say, spend a good amount of time. If you see the season that is ahead of you, just spend a good amount of time praying over that season before it even arrives. Just trust that the Lord, He will give you the grace you need to transition into your new role.   And prepare your heart before the Lord to receive this sanctification, because that's what transition does. It reveals weakness in us. It reveals where we've maybe placed a lot of our hope and confidence in places other than Christ.   And so, walk into that sanctification confidently that the Lord is with you. And then just do your best when that season comes. Do your best to maintain your quiet time routine.   But don't worry too much if things get lost for a little while. It really does take time to regain our footing after a big transition. The main thing is to just not give up the habit altogether.   Just keep fighting for pieces of it as much as you can. And then overtime it will get easier. For me, it took me about six months to relearn my quiet time routine after I got married.   And after I had a baby, it took me a solid year before I became consistent again. It was really, really hard. And even now as a working mom, I still really struggle to find consistency.   So don't freak out. Don't linger on any kind of sense of failure. Just return to the Lord in whatever moments He provides.   And just know that His mercies are new every single morning. And just because you're struggling to have a quiet time in a new season of life doesn't mean that Jesus is not with you, that He's not walking with you and making you into more of His likeness. He is.   He still delights in you. He loves you. He has not left you.   He is still right there.   Laura Dugger: (26:11 - 26:24) I think that's such a real picture because it is a fight and it's worth the fight. And Naomi, how have you seen quiet time ripple out to affect everyone around us?   Naomi Vaccaro: (26:25 - 28:38) Oh man, I feel like I could talk about this one question for a long time because it really does affect everyone. It affects everything. Because when you think of what having a quiet time is, it is connecting us with the God of the universe.   And not only that, it is welcoming Him into our lives and making us more like Christ. So, when we do that regularly, consistently, there literally isn't anyone in our proximity who will not be positively affected by that. The more we are absorbing Scripture and engaging with the Lord in prayer about what's going on in our lives, the people in our lives, the things that weigh us down or lift us up, the more we do this and reflect Christ to the world around us, the more people will be impacted.   So, our marriages, we'll just start there. They will become so much sweeter as we lean on the love of Christ. Trust me, your spouse cannot be your ultimate fulfillment.   And when we look to our spouse to fulfill every single one of our needs, marriage becomes really hard. But the more we lean on our true source of joy and satisfaction, marriage actually becomes really, really wonderful. So, for the sake of your marriage, have a quiet time.   And the same is true for our kids. They are not meant to be the center of our universe. And they will feel so much more happy and secure as we find our joy in the Lord.   They cannot bear the weight of our worship. And so if you want kids who are just full of joy, then spend time with the Lord and trust him to take care of them. And then obviously just our neighbors, our coworkers, our friends, our relatives, everyone we encounter will feel the ripple effect of our own private devotion to God.   I truly do believe that one person who is faithful to seek the Lord on a regular basis will have an impact that resounds throughout eternity itself. I really, really do.   Laura Dugger: (28:39 - 28:49) And do you think it's ever possible to selfishly prioritize our allegiance to these spiritual disciplines above other priorities?   Naomi Vaccaro: (28:50 - 31:30) Yes. Absolutely. And this is something I do talk about in my book, and I share some content there that really impacted me when I was learning about flexibility in our spiritual disciplines.   So, I think it's really important to realize that having a daily quiet time is not a command in Scripture. It's not a sin issue if you don't have a quiet time. It's a relationship issue.   So, the actual function of Bible reading and prayer is not some kind of non-negotiable ritual that we perform. Ultimately, the Christian walk is about loving the Lord, our God, with all we have and loving our neighbor as ourselves. God will never ask us to compromise on either one of those.   He will never ask us to sacrifice one for the other. So loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength will also always look like loving our neighbor as ourselves. Sometimes it looks like changing a diaper instead of opening up that Bible study we're just dying to get into.   And sometimes it looks like running out the door to help someone in an emergency rather than having our regularly scheduled prayer time. Our spiritual disciplines need to be flexible enough to be interrupted. Otherwise, we are making the routine itself too important.   And I really believe the best example of this is Christ himself. There are multiple instances in Scripture where Jesus allows his prayer time with the Father or even his journey down the road to be interrupted by the needs of others. Jesus was always ready to stop and serve, even if that meant shifting his other plans.   Now we all have our own capacity, so that doesn't mean you always have to be rushing to this person and that person. It just means that you need to be willing to let go of your routines in place of the leading of the Holy Spirit. Wherever he wants us to go to love God and love others, that's what we need to remember.   And then just remember that quiet time is not the end goal in itself. That is not the ultimate end of the Christian life. Love for God and love for others really does go beyond daily Bible reading and prayer.   Sometimes our quiet time will need to be changed or postponed in order for us to love others the way God wants us to.   Laura Dugger: (31:31 - 32:42) I love scenarios that are both and, and you're laying that out for us, that quiet time both is important and its worthy of being prioritized and flexibility is important and Christ-like as well.    Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights? Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy! Another part of your book just made me smile when you were talking about whether you believe prayer and Scripture reading are non-negotiables, but you also invite readers to journal for a variety of reasons. And I love journaling as well.   But from your standpoint, will you elaborate on some convincing reasons to give journaling a try?   Naomi Vaccaro: (32:44 - 35:36) Absolutely. So, I am also an avid journaler. I have been journaling since I was about eight years old.   And over time, I really have just seen so many amazing benefits to journaling. Like you said, it's not a non-negotiable element to a quiet time. It's not absolutely necessary to journal.   Whereas I would say Bible reading and prayer are necessary because they are our modes of communication to the Lord. So, journaling really is more of a bonus element. But keeping a diary will always be something I recommend for several reasons.   So here are my main reasons why I recommend journaling. So, first of all, journaling really does help us process our emotions. We've got a lot of feelings rolling around inside of us.   And sometimes it is so good to just wrestle those feelings onto a page so that we can look them over, analyze them, process them, submit them to the Lord, and maybe understand why we are feeling a certain way and then what next steps we should take to address those emotions. So that's my first reason. Journaling really helps us process our emotions.   Also, I think most people understand that this is a huge benefit of journaling. But journaling really is a wonderful way to preserve our memories. There are so many stories I would never have remembered if I didn't write them down years ago.   And I just absolutely love, it gives me so much joy to go back through my old journals and read about events and what I thought about certain events that happened years ago. And at the time, those things seemed so big and important. But now they are just the sweetest memories that I get to pass down to my children, hopefully, and hopefully their children.   So yes, journaling also helps us preserve our memories. And then finally, I think the most compelling reason to journal is the way it helps us keep a record of God's faithfulness in our lives. So how many times do you and I pray over something super specific, something we are super worried about, and then that problem is solved.   The Lord provides, and the need is met. And then the next day, we kind of forgot all about it. We just move right along to the next worry.   I know that I do this all the time, and journaling has really helped me in this area. I get so caught up with now that I forget about all the dozens and hundreds of times that God has been faithful to provide and protect and comfort me in the past. So journaling is just such a good, practical way to deepen our faith as we record and remember how good God has been to us over time.   Laura Dugger: (35:36 - 35:56) And I even think the Bible encourages this in different ways when it's talking about writing this down or passing this on to your children. Or one of my favorites in the last part of Proverbs 3.21 says, preserve sound judgment and discernment. Do not let them out of your sight.   And so, I just echo all that you're saying.   Naomi Vaccaro: (35:57 - 35:58) Yes.   Laura Dugger: (35:58 - 36:08) When we consider the Holy Spirit's impactful role in our lives, how can we discern when we're being spirit-led versus flesh-led?   Naomi Vaccaro: (36:09 - 38:20) You know, what's so amazing about being a Christian is that we have been given the gift of the Helper, with a capital H, you know, the Holy Spirit who now dwells within those who belong to Christ. It's so amazing. So, if you look at yourself in the mirror right now, you can just know the Holy Spirit is looking right back at you.   It's pretty amazing. We get to walk every day hand-in-hand with the Holy Spirit. And the more we listen to Him and let Him guide us in our lives, the easier it will be to hear Him again.   And that's what we want. We want to be spirit-led people. So how do we do that?   The age-old question. So, one thing that we can always be certain of is that the Holy Spirit will never contradict the revealed will of God in Scripture. The Holy Spirit is a part of the Trinity.   They are all so connected in their purpose. They are one. And yes, the Spirit, He can work in our emotions, and He often does.   But the problem is, our feelings can be so tricky. And we always want to measure them against the Holy Word of God because that is where our source of truth is found. So, this really is the truest test for the leading of the Holy Spirit versus the leading of our flesh.   Our flesh will always be self-centered. And the Holy Spirit will always be Christ-centered. The Holy Spirit exists to magnify Christ, right?   So, as we look at Christ and adore Christ, then the Holy Spirit will grow stronger and stronger inside of us. So that's what I would encourage you to do. If you want to discern the difference between the Holy Spirit's leading and your flesh's leading, then really just start with studying God's Word.   Bring it into your home, your soul, your day-to-day life, and you will begin to discern the difference in no time.   Laura Dugger: (38:22 - 38:28) And how can we spur one another on to love and good deeds, especially in community?   Naomi Vaccaro: (38:29 - 40:15) So first, you need to be in community in order to spur one another on to love and good deeds, right? So, we really do need to start there because we're living in a time, especially in our country, I think around the world, where there is just a pandemic of loneliness and people are not living in community. So start by finding that community.   Find a local body of believers in Christ to do life with. And I don't just mean a Sunday morning service. Find people that you can see multiple times a week and start to get vulnerable and involved in each other's lives.   Start a prayer group together. Gather your kids and have a regular play date. Do game nights with the whole family.   Just think outside the box of Sunday morning. And after that, I just really believe that in order to love one another well, we need to bring it back to the whole topic of this conversation. We need to start with our own private relationship with God.   If this vertical relationship between God and us is out of whack, then our horizontal relationships with others will really just start to disintegrate. So, we need to begin with our own relationship with Christ and begin by praying for the people in your community as you spend time talking with Him. He will be the one to fill you with the love you need to then go and pour it out to the other members of your community.   And that is what spurs Christians on to love and good deeds. And it always has been.   Laura Dugger: (40:16 - 40:29) Well, Naomi, I'm enjoying this conversation. And if anybody wants to continue the conversation, where would you direct us online to find you and begin implementing these rhythms that you've taught us today?   Naomi Vaccaro: (40:30 - 41:09) Thank you, Laura. I've had such a great time talking with you, too. And I would just love to chat with anyone else who wants to come and start a conversation.   You can find me on Instagram at Naomi Vaccaro. And you can find my ministry, Wholehearted, where we focus on discipling Christians to have a daily quiet time. You can find that ministry on Instagram at WholeheartedQuietTime.   Also, our website is WholeheartedQuietTime.com. And that's where we have our blog and our online shop and a lot of free resources. So please come on by.   I would love to meet you.   Laura Dugger: (41:09 - 41:28) Wonderful. We will link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And you may be aware we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight.   And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Naomi Vaccaro: (41:28 - 41:51) Yeah, I love this. Savvy Sauce. There's a lot of things I could say, but when it comes down to it, my savvy sauce really is getting a good night's sleep.   I become a monster if I don't sleep enough. So, I need to get my rest. I cannot recommend it highly enough, people.   Get yourselves eight hours every night. Amen to that.   Laura Dugger: (41:51 - 42:17) That is wonderful savvy sauce. And maybe that's part of the reason and more so your connection with the Lord. But I just experience you as such a peaceful and kind and gentle person.   And I can hear all of the passion about this coming from you. So, thank you for the work that you're faithfully doing with Wholehearted. And thank you for being my guest today.   Naomi Vaccaro: (42:18 - 42:34) Thank you, Laura. I just feel so encouraged and so, so loved by God through this conversation. And I cannot wait to see what he is going to do in His people through your work, your podcast, and Lord willing, my book.   So may His will be done.   Laura Dugger: (42:35 - 46:36) Thank you so much, Naomi.    One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

262. Why Are So Many People Homeschooling? With Monica Swanson   Proverbs 19:21 (NIV) Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails.   Monica Swanson and her husband, Dave (a hospital physician), are raising four sons on the North Shore of Oahu, Hawaii. They have graduated three sons, and homeschool the other one, and they spend much of their free time supporting their sons' competitive surfing and enjoying all that Hawaii has to offer. Monica's background is in sports medicine and fitness, and she shares inspiration for balanced living, as well as recipes, stories, and a ton of encouragement for families on her blog at MonicaSwanson.com.   Questions and Topics We Discuss: According to analysis from The Washington Post, homeschooling has become the fastest-growing form of education in America. Why do you believe there has been a shift in the perception and implementation of homeschooling? In chapter 1, you share "20 Good Reasons to Homeschool Your Kids." Will you share a couple favorites from your list? What are the three steps you recommend to begin?   HSLDA Website   Number One Most Popular Episode on The Savvy Sauce from 2023: #1 from 2023: School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee    Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website.   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*DISCLAIMER* This episode covers adult topics that are not intended for young ears.   260. Sex After Cancer with Dr. Kris Christiansen   James 1:19 (NIV) My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,   **Transcription Below**   Questions We Discuss: What is common mis-information that you want to set straight as it relates to cancer and sex? If someone is walking their own cancer journey right now, what would you advise them to both do and avoid doing so that they can still enjoy the healthiest sex life possible with their spouse? What hope do you have to share with people who have battled cancer and still desire to connect intimately with their spouse?   Dr. Kris Christiansen is a board-certified family physician who specializes in sexual medicine. She attended medical school and completed her residency in family medicine at the University of Minnesota. She practiced full spectrum family medicine for 10 years and then pursued additional training to specialize in sexual medicine. She works as a sexual medicine specialist at two different clinics in the twin cities.   Her clinical interests include both male and female sexual dysfunction, and she loves working with individuals and couples to restore an important part of life. Dr. Christiansen is involved with teaching medical students and residents at the University of Minnesota Medical School, and she has presented at multiple local, national, and international medical conferences. She is involved with the International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health (ISSWSH) and serves on committees, collaborates with other experts to publish articles for medical journals, and edits informational articles for the society's new patient facing website. She is passionate about teaching patients, students, and colleagues about the importance of sexual health and well-being. In her free time, she started her own business called Intimate Focus which provides information and quality products to enhance and restore sexual health and wellness. She also enjoys shopping, hiking, and spending time with her family.   Dr. Kris Christiansen's Website   Previous Episodes featuring Dr. Kris Christiansen on The Savvy Sauce: 215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen 216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen   Additional Place to Find More Episodes from The Savvy Sauce Related to This Topic: One-Stop Shop for Marriage and Intimacy Resources   Dr. Kris Christiansen's Recommended Websites for Sexual Health: The Menopause Society Mayo Clinic National Institutes of Health International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health American Urological Association International Society of Sexual Medicine Sexual Medicine Society of North America American Cancer Society ISSWSH International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health SMSNA Sexual Medicine Society of North America  ISSM International Society of Sexual Medicine The Menopause Society   Find a provider: For a women's sexual health provider, pelvic floor physical therapist, (non-Christian) sex therapist ABCST American Board of Christian Sex Therapists (for a Christian sex therapist)   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:22) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Leman Property Management Co. has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois.   Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.    Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.   Not many people specialize in the same thing as our returning guest for today, Dr. Kris Christiansen. She specializes in sexual medicine, and today she's going to provide clarity, information, and direction for how to maximize sexual pleasure with our spouse after one receives a cancer diagnosis. Here's our chat.   Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Christiansen.   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (1:23 - 1:30) Well, thank you so much, Laura. We had so much fun last time, and I'm looking forward to this conversation again today.   Laura Dugger: (1:31 - 1:57) Likewise. I feel the same way. And it really wasn't that long ago that you were on The Savvy Sauce two times, so I'll make sure and link to both of those episodes in the show notes for today.   But hopefully everybody's already well acquainted with you, and that's why we're just kind of diving right into our topic today. So, for starters, how did this topic of sex after cancer become an interest of yours to study?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (2:00 - 2:32) Well, so Laura, my job as a sexual medicine physician is that I work with both men and women and helping them with their sexual lives when they have problems or whatever. So, cancer is often a big part of that. So, through my journey with work, I've just developed a significant interest in learning how to really care for people to help restore this important part of life.   Laura Dugger: (2:33 - 2:52) Absolutely, because a lot is taken away when somebody gets that awful diagnosis, and so I'm very grateful for people like you who are experts. But is there any common misinformation that you would like to set straight as it relates to cancer and sex?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (2:55 - 6:42) Well, interesting you say that, because there is so much misinformation out there just about sex in general. And then when we throw cancer in on top of that, it just makes it even more complicated. So, I think a common fear that people experience when they get that diagnosis that they hope they never hear, the C word, is that it's going to have a significant impact on their sexual intimacy.   And you know what, it can, but that doesn't mean that that chapter in life is closed. We just have to remember that sexual intimacy is much, much broader than just intercourse. So, if we can refer to this as PIV sex, penis in vagina sex, many people view it as kind of an all or none thing.   If they can't have vaginal intercourse or that PIV sex, then they don't want anything at all. Unfortunately, that just rules out or shuts out so much of sexual intimacy that God has intended for us. We may not be able to engage in the same activities for a time or even long term, but that doesn't mean that we can't connect.   So, if we try to remember that intimacy, sexual intimacy is all about giving and receiving pleasure, then there are so many more opportunities. So, we have to get beyond the fact that sexual intimacy, sexual intercourse is just vaginal intercourse because it's not. It's giving and receiving pleasure.   And however people want to connect or comfortable connecting, that they can still enjoy a very fruitful sex life. The other thing that is misunderstood and misconceptions is estrogen, vaginal estrogen, especially. Because, well, all women who enter menopause and you're in menopause for the rest of your life do experience some changes.   And it's so common that women experience the genital urinary syndrome of menopause. That's vaginal atrophy, or when the tissues get drier and thinner and there can be tearing and pain as well as bleeding and decreased sensation, decreased sensitivity. These things are common with aging, but oftentimes cancer treatments emphasize that or accelerate it or make it even worse.   And vaginal estrogen is really, really safe. It does not cause cancer. And most of the studies show that even in women who have breast cancer, that it doesn't cause recurrence.   So vaginal estrogen, being so safe, can really save our vaginas. And we're talking about vaginal health and bladder health. It's not just about sex, but it helps keep our bodies functioning properly and minimizing pain and discomfort.   So, if a woman is diagnosed with breast cancer and she's on treatment, then obviously we have to talk to the oncologist, make sure they're okay with that. But we get more and more studies showing it's safety and it's definitely effective and can help keep our tissues young.   Laura Dugger: (6:42 - 7:25) This is really helpful and brand new information to me. So someone, like you used that example, if they have breast cancer diagnosis and there's different types, but if they're doing the treatment where perhaps they go into early menopause or they have a hysterectomy or remove their ovaries and they even have an estrogen blocker so that they're not producing estrogen, for that type, you're still saying as long as you're working with the oncologist for that personal client, even in those situations, vaginal estrogen, which would be, I'm assuming, more of a cream or something you insert to the vagina, is that right? That that would be safe?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (7:25 - 10:55) So, where it gets a little gray is if the woman is taking an aromatase inhibitor, which is the estrogen blocker. So, it pretty much wipes all estrogen out of her system. There's a little more risk there.   So most definitely we need to double check with the oncologist. But it often comes down to quality of life. I have a patient who, she was diagnosed with breast cancer, I believe, in her early 60s.   And she came to me at the sexual medicine clinic and she was just miserable. I mean, when we think of vaginal dryness, you think of, okay, it's annoying. You use a lubricant, right, and it's going to be just fine.   In the beginning, yes, that's the case. But this genital urinary syndrome of menopause, GSM, gets worse with time, especially with those anti-estrogen treatments. And for this poor woman, she couldn't exercise.   She loved to go hiking. She loved to go skiing. And just any kind of movement was painful.   And we don't think of that. We kind of take it for granted. But for some women who really experience severe side effects of the breast cancer treatments and causing dryness and irritation, it affects everything.   And for her, we tried all the non-hormonal things first. They didn't work. And her oncologist gave us the blessing saying, you know, we tried it.   This is really important to you. Let's give it a try. And so, we've monitored her, and the vaginal estrogen hasn't caused any problems.   So, a couple points on that. With the vaginal estrogen, yes, it comes as a cream. There's a tablet, which is like a little pill with an applicator that you insert in the vagina.   There are vaginal inserts. They look like little caplets that you just insert with the finger. There's a vaginal ring.   But with the localized treatment, it's meant to just act locally, meaning just on the vaginal tissues. And, oh, package insert. So, you know, here we tell patients, vaginal estrogen is safe.   Don't worry. It's not going to cause cancer, heart attack, strokes, or blood clots. But then they go home.   They get their prescription. They open up the patient insert, package insert, and it talks about risks and bad things that can happen and side effects. Unfortunately, the FDA says we have to use the class labeling or the side effects that are associated with systemic estrogen.   And it automatically gets applied to the localized or vaginal estrogen treatments. So, patients go home, they read that, and they think we're lying to them. But, unfortunately, it's just very misleading because we have plenty of studies to show that vaginal estrogen doesn't cause those terrible things.   And it's very safe. So, they just have to trust us. And there are groups and people out there trying to work with the FDA to get that class labeling effect removed because it just scares everybody away from using estrogen, which can be so helpful.   Laura Dugger: (10:57 - 11:04) Wow, that is helpful. Is there any other common misinformation you want to make sure we don't overlook before we continue on?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (11:05 - 11:29) Well, I made a few notes here. No, I don't think so. Except that media, television, and all that other stuff that we see out there is so misleading when it comes to sexual intimacy.   Because sex in real life doesn't look like what you see in the movies. Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (11:30 - 11:45) Great, great point. And so, when somebody does get, like you said, that dreaded C-word diagnosis, what's a common path that they may experience as it affects them sexually?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (11:48 - 14:00) Well, so, the different cancers are so different and treatments are so different that it's hard to generalize for everybody. But, you know, first thing most people experience is fear. What's this mean for me?   What's this mean for my life, my family? Am I going to be around in five years? So, it's that fear.   And the initial part of that journey is often involved with meeting with lots of doctors, having all the tests, trying to figure out what's going on, what we're going to do. And sexual intimacy often isn't part of that first steps that they take. So, but when things kind of finally settle down, then those questions start popping up.   What does this mean? It's important to talk with your cancer journey, your cancer team, the oncology team to find out what's going on. And it's important to ask all these questions because doctors really aren't very good about asking about sexual health and what that means to you.   Oncologists, generally speaking, they want to treat the cancer and their job is done when the cancer is treated, under control, gone, whatever. And they've done a good job. However, so many of us are just left afterwards saying, okay, thanks, cancer's gone, but now what?   And so, it's a matter of really trying to figure out what's important over time, learning what's going to work and what's not. And know that there are people out there to help you and that want to help you if it's not going as planned. You know, I just want to reiterate that people really need to advocate for themselves and they need to ask questions.   And if they're not getting the answers that they want, don't give up because there are people, organizations, information out there that can be helpful. So rather than just worrying about what's next, seek help.   Laura Dugger: (14:02 - 14:18) That's really great advice. And I think this may be an appropriate place to pause and just get some of those recommended places. Because if somebody, this is new to them and they don't know where to turn, do you have any places or websites off the top of your mind that you would recommend?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (14:20 - 15:41) Well, so cancer.org, the American Cancer Society has a lot of resources on there. When it comes to menopause-type symptoms and such, menopause.org is the Menopause Society, which has a lot of information. And a website called PROSAYLA, it's P-R-O-S-A-Y-L-A.com, is a website that's managed by ISHWISH.   We've got all these acronyms. The International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health. So that is my go-to.   Okay, so that's the organization where there's so much research and science and such happening. And the PROSAYLA.org or prosayla.com, either one works, is a website where there are several articles written by experts in the field. So, these are articles backed by science.   It's not just somebody's opinion or somebody's blog. And I know there's an article on there about sex or cancer and sexuality. So, some generalities and some other references on that site too.   Laura Dugger: (15:42 - 15:51) Okay, that is super helpful information. We'll make sure and add links to those places as well. Anything else that you want to make sure we don't miss?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (15:52 - 17:36) Well, when we talk about sexual concerns or sexual problems, we always try to approach it from a biopsychosocial aspect. Because those three different entities all play a big role in what works well and what doesn't. So, from the biological section, that's pain, medications, nerve problems, chronic medical problems.   So obviously cancer plays a big role in that. And with cancer treatments and such, pain may be part of that, nausea, fatigue. And so, we just don't feel the same going through these treatments because it's really hard.   As far as the psych bubble, I'm usually referencing a Venn diagram here. Psychological, so when we experience anxiety or depression or performance anxiety, that plays a big role. So, we need to take a step back and realize that what happens up here in our brain has a huge impact on how our bodies function physically.   And then as far as the social aspect, that's our relationships, our interpersonal relationships with our partner, our spouse, with our family and how things are going on at work. A cancer diagnosis and treatment can affect all of those. And so, it's not just a magic pill to improve your libido because if we don't treat all these other things, people continue to struggle with their sexual function.   Laura Dugger: (18:01 - 19:46) Duplexes, studios and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. 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Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at Leasing@LemanProps.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com.   That's LEMANproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.    Also, Dr. Kris, are there any certain cancers or treatments that have the most detrimental impact on a person's sex life?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (19:48 - 23:15) We know that cancers that affect the breast, for women, but men too get breast cancer, and also the genital area have the biggest impact. We've talked a fair amount about breast cancer. Many of the treatments for breast cancer result in early menopause.   If a woman is premenopausal when this happens, menopause can have a definite impact. The treatments can cause the pain and dryness and decrease sensitivity. Also, if surgery is involved in a mastectomy, it can affect our own body self-image.   From a more physical standpoint too, when we have the mastectomy and those nerves are cut, it decreases the sensitivity. For a lot of women, breast stimulation is really important as part of their sexual play. If now her breasts are gone and she can't feel anything when her husband is touching her breasts, that can be a really hard adjustment.   Any cancers that affect the genital area, uterine cancer, ovarian cancer, or anal rectal cancer for both men and women, and prostate cancer for men, those all have a huge impact. In addition to working with a lot of women who have breast cancer and overcoming and improving those areas, I work with a lot of men who have prostate cancer. Those treatments usually result in erection problems and urinary incontinence, which can be hard to deal with.   Men who have a prostatectomy, so if they have their prostate removed, then 100% of them are going to have erectile dysfunction in the beginning. It's going to take time for those nerves to recover, and it may take up to two years to see that full recovery. In those first few months when I'm working with men, I'm trying to be their cheerleader, saying, don't lose hope, don't give up, because this is going to get better.   It just takes time for those nerves to regrow. In the process, though, it is important to do whatever we can to make sure that that tissue stays healthy. Remember that the penis is actually muscle, muscle tissue, smooth muscle.   If we don't use a muscle for several months, atrophy sets in, which is a bad thing. With atrophy, the penis can shrink in size, and scar tissue potentially can set in, and it just makes that recovery less optimal than what it would have been. Trying to maintain the blood flow during those first few months or first year is really helpful.   Just to help maintain the blood flow and the oxygen to help keep the tissues healthy, so when the tenders do recover as best as they're going to, we get the best outcome.   Laura Dugger: (23:16 - 23:36) This may be an ignorant question, but then if erectile issues are present during that first time period, but it's crucial to have the blood flow to that area, what can men do to increase blood flow there, even if erection is difficult or impossible?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (23:36 - 25:01) That's a great question. Taking a medication like Viagra or Cialis. Cialis is my favorite because it stays in the system for a good 36 to 48 hours every time you take it.   If you're just taking a low dose every day, it just encourages a little bit of that blood flow every day. Using a vacuum device, which I just happen to have one right here, looks like this. A penis goes inside the cylinder, we create a vacuum or suction, and it pulls the blood flow in.   It's not the most sexy thing, but using it and using the vacuum device several times a week just to get that blood flow going is a very helpful way to keep the tissues healthy. Getting an erection with the vacuum doesn't get those arousal-type feelings, so it looks a little weird, but it does work. For men who want to use this for sexual activity, you can get the erection within the tube, and then it comes with these tight rings that are stretched over the edge of the cylinder.   Once you get the full erection within the tube, you slide that ring off to maintain the erection.   Laura Dugger: (25:04 - 25:14) That's incredible just to pause and think of God's grace and these inventions and how incredible that there are solutions. Please continue, but I find that encouraging.   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (25:16 - 27:39) There are all kinds of encouraging things, but if you're in the middle of this journey, it can be sometimes hard to keep going when you're not getting the results that you want to. But we believe in a big God, and he created sexual intimacy, and it's a gift. Other ways to help manage erectile dysfunction and a couple other show-and-tell things here.   This medication is called Muse. The actual medication is a pellet that comes preloaded in this applicator. You insert it in the tip of the penis, the medication gets absorbed, and 10 minutes later, magic happens.   I don't prescribe this very often because it's really, really expensive, a little harder to find. But the advantage to this medication is that it doesn't need the nerves to work, whereas the medications like Viagra and Cialis, they need the nerves. Guys usually kind of turn white when I pull this out.   For our listeners, I'm holding an insulin syringe and needle. There is such a treatment where you can actually inject a tiny amount of medicine directly into the penis, and it will give you an erection. I tell men that with the pills like Viagra and Cialis, just in general with ED, it works in about 60% of men.   We can get this to work, the injections to work, in 90-95%. It's such a tiny needle that men say it feels like a poke or a pinch once they get past that initial shock that they think is going to hurt. The usual response is, oh, that wasn't so bad, and it's very effective.   This can work within four to six weeks, so whenever your surgeon says it's okay to engage in sexual activity again, this will work. Then last but not least is a penile implant. That's surgery, and that you have to wait at least a year, if not two, after the prostate surgery.   That works in 99.99%. Wow.   Laura Dugger: (27:40 - 27:56) We were focusing a lot on men for that one. Is there any medication or any other injections or anything like that for women, other than the vaginal cream or different ways to get estrogen in the vagina?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (27:58 - 31:15) Yes, we've got all kinds of treatments. If a woman has breast cancer, or for whatever reason we want to avoid hormones as much as possible, then generally we're starting with a vaginal moisturizer, which is different than a lubricant. A lubricant is just for sexual activity and just to make things slipperier and feel better.   That often helps in the beginning, but as the GSM or the atrophy continues, the lubricant isn't enough. A moisturizer, think of like a facial moisturizer or a moisturizer for your hand, in order for it to work, you have to use it regularly, which is probably at least three times a week. These moisturizers can come in forms of a liquid that gets injected.   They're little capsules that you can insert. Reveri is a hyaluronic acid suppository, which you insert in the vagina and over time that can be really helpful. One of my favorites is this Rosebud Everyday Balm.   It's a really nice balm that you can put on the tissues inside the lips and inside the vagina. It's just really, really soothing. Again, you've got to use these things regularly.   It will take a good two months at least to see the full effect, so it doesn't work right away. Just like with the guys where they've got to be patient with the nerves, we have to be persistent and patient with things that can work. A vaginal moisturizer is really helpful.   A lubricant for sexual activity. There are over-the-counter and prescription medications that can help with arousal and orgasm. There are two approved medications for the treatment of low libido in premenopausal women.   One is Addi, which is a pill that you take every day, also known as the pink pill. Another treatment is Vilece, which is an injection. It comes in a pen, so you never see the needle and really don't feel the needle.   You give it to yourself about 45 minutes to an hour before sexual activity. Both of these medications are working on the brain chemistry because the brain is the biggest sex organ in the body. It's the most important sex organ.   It works on the brain chemistry and improving the dopamine and norepinephrine and the good sex positive hormones. Like I said, it's only approved for premenopausal women, but many of us do prescribe it for postmenopausal women. We have studies to show that it's safe and it's effective.   The drug companies didn't go through with all the rigmarole they had to do to get the FDA-approved indication for that. We've got all kinds of tricks up our sleeve.   Laura Dugger: (31:16 - 31:26) Absolutely. Just piggybacking on that, they wouldn't oftentimes follow through on all those studies, would you say primarily because of financial restraints?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (31:27 - 31:41) Totally. To get a medication approved for female sexual function, it's multi-million, if not a billion dollars. Studies and everything that needs to be done, it's crazy.   That's why these meds are so expensive.   Laura Dugger: (31:42 - 32:14) Then you also mentioned earlier bringing in the quality of life. There are so many options to consider, but such a personal basis. I had another question that arose.   You kind of were answering that because this one works with the brain chemistry. I'm thinking the body parts may be functioning and you can do different things to have an erection or be aroused with your genitalia, but how is desire affected with cancer?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (32:16 - 35:03) It's huge, unfortunately. Again, if we go back to that biopsychosocial model and for everything to work well, everything's got to be working well. If we have pain, of course that drives down desire.   We use the analogy of putting your hand on a hot stove. Pain with sex can hurt just as badly as that. I have women tell me it's 10 out of 10 pain feels like shards of glass.   Obviously, that's not pleasant. If we compare that to putting your hand on a hot stove, why in the world would you want to do that? We've got to take care of the pain.   When it comes to pain, it becomes imprinted in the brain and the body responds by just amplifying that pain. You've got more pain and you have less desire. Part of GSM or surgery or chemotherapy and other treatments, radiation, can affect the nerves.   We don't get those positive sensations and the arousal anymore. There's arousal in the brain as well as arousal in the genital area. If we're not getting that positive feedback that this just isn't fun anymore, it's hard to get enthused about engaging in that.   Sex therapy can be really helpful. Sex therapy isn't going to fix thin tissues, but a sex therapist is very skilled and trained at working with people and working with couples on trying to process this, working through the process and the changes that are happening. Sometimes it is a permanent change in sexual function, so there's grief involved.   Helping to process through some of that is really important. But again, if we take a step back and remember that sexual intimacy is more than just PIV sex, that there are all kinds of ways to be able to give and receive pleasure, as long as each person is comfortable with this. And moving beyond the thinking that, well, if I can't have intercourse, I'm not going to have anything at all, then that may mean you might not have anything at all for the rest of your life.   That makes me sad. We just have to take a step back, work through some of this, because it's a journey, it's a cancer journey, it's an aging journey, and try to make the most of it.   Laura Dugger: (35:04 - 36:32) I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Hinrichsen from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product. So, I hope you check it out.   There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.   What are some of those examples for someone if they can't have PIV sex anymore? What are ways that you encourage continuing to build intimacy and a knowing of one another and offering and receiving pleasure?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (36:34 - 41:17) Well, starting with making sure each person is on the same page as far as what they're comfortable with. Okay? Communication is key.   To be able to talk about what you want, what you desire, what your needs are, and listening to your partner say that same thing, trying to make no judgments and not forcing anybody into anything, but just so that we can help understand each other. And when it comes to actual giving and receiving pleasure, whether that's with manual stimulation, with your hands, with your fingers, or if you have a massager, oral stimulation, using a vibrator. And a vibrator can be really helpful for women in menopause, women dealing with cancer treatments, and also for men if they need a little extra help with the stimulation because their nerves aren't working so well.   A vibrator, using it together in the context of giving and receiving pleasure can help, just help with the response, help with the enjoyment, and make it a little more fun, as long as everybody's okay with that. Using a lubricant is really important. And a good lubricant, you want to use a good lubricant because some of the more common ones, unfortunately, have ingredients in them that can actually hurt or irritate.   And like KY and Astroglide, sorry to name names here, but they're basic water-based lubricants, have either glycerin, parabens, or propylene glycol in them, and those can irritate, so we want to try to avoid those. A silicone-based lubricant doesn't have those preservatives, and it stays slippery longer. Where we have to be careful with that is that if you're using a silicone tool, otherwise known as a vibrator, you don't want to use those together because it can ruin the tool.   And if the man is struggling with ED, using too much, especially of a silicone lubricant, can make it too slippery. And too slippery is not so good for him. Oil-based lubricants, they're very nice, except if you're using condoms, it will degrade the condom and create other problems, potentially.   Other ways to stimulate, manually, orally, and when women have pain with intercourse, I'm going to bring in another show-and-tell here, the pain is often coming from the vulva, not so much in the vagina. We talk about vaginal dryness and vaginal atrophy, but the part that's most sensitive is often just right inside the little lips here. And so, if we have terrible pain with penetration, we want to avoid that.   However, the whole surrounding vulvar area is very rich in nerves, can be very much stimulated, and it can feel really good, however each person is comfortable stimulating that area. And another fun fact is that this entire structure is the clitoris. You know, when we think of the clitoris, we think of the glands, this tiny little magic button right here, which, by the way, has 10,000 nerve endings in it.   It's incredible. But the legs, the legs are the cruise of the clitoris, as well as the bulbs. They come down on either side of the vagina.   So, the vagina is here. However, this part of the clitoris can easily be stimulated, so the legs of the clitoris can be easily stimulated, just inside the labia majora, or the outer lips. So, using a vibrator here can be really pleasurable, and you're avoiding the part that hurts.   So, stimulating externally the clitoris, the labia, and wherever else feels good can be very fun. And so, if you try to approach it may be like a game, making it fun and exploring each other's bodies so that you can really figure out ways to make the other person feel good or experience pleasure without causing pain.   Laura Dugger: (41:18 - 41:43) That's so great. And like you had mentioned, if they go see a Christian sex therapist, they would say the same thing as you to stop when there is pain, because it just makes it worse over time. And so, I love that you've given us other options, if that is the case.   Is there ever a time where orgasm is no longer possible after cancer?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (41:46 - 43:14) It's possible. Yes. Depending on the cancer and the treatment, that it can make it really difficult or even impossible to get there.   But that's where we want to not focus on orgasm as the ultimate goal, because if we engage in sexual activity with orgasm as the ultimate goal, your brain's not going to let you go there, whether it's the male or the female, either one, the brain is the biggest sex organ in the body. Just trying to go for the gold just won't let you get there. So, you have to relax and enjoy the journey regardless.   So even if the cancer or the treatment didn't necessarily affect orgasm or if it's just our brains, my encouragement is to approach a sexual encounter as an experience. Enjoy the experience. It's not a performance.   We don't want to perform because then we get in our head, and we get nervous and our muscles all tighten up. So, we don't want to perform. We want to enjoy the experience, and it can be very pleasurable.   Even if orgasm isn't part of the picture anymore, it doesn't mean you can't have fun and can't connect because you can.   Laura Dugger: (43:15 - 43:25) But then I guess also to offer the hope, if I ask it a different way, are there times that orgasm is still possible after a cancer diagnosis?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (43:27 - 44:01) Absolutely. We always have hope. We always have hope.   Just because you're diagnosed with cancer doesn't mean you're not going to be able to engage in PIV sex or be able to experience an orgasm because that's always a possibility. Don't focus on just getting to the big orgasm. You want to slow down, enjoy the journey, and oftentimes it will come.   There are medications that help with blood flow, that help with arousal and orgasm, and sometimes they can be helpful. Sometimes they're not, but usually it doesn't hurt to try them.   Laura Dugger: (44:02 - 44:26) There you go. That's a very helpful reminder. It's a piece of the puzzle, not the whole thing.   But if someone right now is walking through their own cancer journey, what else would you advise them both to do and to avoid doing so that they can still enjoy the healthiest sex life possible with their spouse?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (44:29 - 47:19) That's going to involve several pieces. One, first and foremost, maintain the communication about wants and desires, what hurts, what doesn't, what can we do, what do you want to try tonight? Maintaining the communication.   It's much better to prevent problems like the vaginal dryness and pain than to try to treat it after you've been dealing with it for years sometimes, or even months. If you have, say, breast cancer, just getting in the habit of using one of those vaginal moisturizers from the get-go even before the dryness starts can help prevent problems. Seeing a pelvic floor physical therapist can be really, really helpful.   A pelvic floor physical therapist is a physical therapist who specializes in these pelvic floor muscles that help support everything on the inside. And so if these muscles are too tight, causes pain, and if they're already too tight, doing tangles is the last thing that you want to do, because sometimes it means being able to relax them. Or women who have, who need pelvic radiation, say for uterine cancer, the gynecologic oncologist is usually really good about giving you a vaginal dilator and to use it, but they're not always really good at telling you exactly how to use it, how frequently and how long, so be sure and ask.   Because again, we want to maintain the integrity of the tissues, because it's better to maintain them than try to get it back. That's often quite hard. For guys, especially with prostate cancer, it means participating in that, we call it penile rehabilitation.   So, it's basically physical therapy for the penis. You know, its muscle, so we want to keep that muscle healthy and to help maintain healthy tissues. And just trying to be as good to ourselves as we can, giving ourselves and our partners grace when we need it, because it's a journey and it's not an easy one.   But we believe in a big God and he's there to help us through this and he delights when husband and wife can unite as one, whatever that looks like. And it makes him happy and he's there to try to keep this going for us.   Laura Dugger: (47:21 - 47:40) And you may have already answered this question with that, but I love how you're always encouraging and gentle and full of hope. So, any other hope that you want to share with anyone who's battled cancer or is in the midst of their journey, but they're still desiring to connect intimately with their spouse?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (47:47 - 48:33) Sometimes it means asking for help. So, for finding a provider, whether that's a therapist, a gynecologist, a sexual medicine provider, or even your pastor counselor to help you through this. In the show notes, we'll put in websites where you can find a provider because not everybody is educated.   Hardly anybody's educated on this, unfortunately. But there are people out there throughout the country, throughout the world, where you can find to help guide you on this journey. Don't suffer in silence.   We're here to help. So be sure to reach out so we can help you.   Laura Dugger: (48:33 - 48:50) That's so good, Dr. Christiansen. And are there any other proactive measures that all of us can take to set us up for a healthy sex life into aging or any diagnoses that we may get in the future?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (48:53 - 50:38) Well, treating our body like a temple, like God says. We have to take good care of ourselves. And just in general, going for your preventative visits and checking your cholesterol and your blood sugar and your blood pressure and screening for cancer so we can prevent them or catch them really early.   And it's so much easier to treat. But things like smoking and diabetes and being overweight and high blood pressure, high cholesterol, they impact sexual function very negatively, especially smoking. Guys are still surprised when I tell them, or I show them a picture of a cigarette with ashes that are kind of wilting off the end.   This is your penis. This is what happens with smoking. Okay.   So quitting smoking. And in women, we have those same little blood vessels and nerves that men do. And so not taking care of ourselves as far as weight, exercise and diabetes and all that stuff, that affects our sexual function, too.   So just making sure that we take a proactive stance on just taking really good care of our medical and our mental health because that's so important. And our spiritual health. Can't forget that, too.   Yeah. Just, you know, taking care of ourselves because aging does impact sexual function. As we get older, our endurance isn't quite what it used to be.   Certainly not as flexible as we used to be. Things kind of hurt. Achy joints and whatever.   So, the more we can take care of ourselves, the more we can enjoy that sexual intimacy, which does involve a little bit of physical exertion.   Laura Dugger: (50:39 - 51:03) Absolutely. Well, you've shared a lot of places where we can go to seek help. But I would love to know where we can continue to learn from you or a website where people can find out more of your offerings because you mentioned not many people are educated in this field or on this topic, but you are a great resource.   So where would you direct all of us after this chat?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (51:05 - 52:23) Well, I started my own business called Intimate Focus, Intimate-Focus.com. Where my goal is to offer education and quality products that people can use to help equip them and enhance sexual intimacy. As part of my clinical career where I see patients, we'd often talk about using a good lubricant or getting a vibrator to help with those nerves that just aren't quite as effective anymore.   And so many times they told me they were just not comfortable going to an adult store or they didn't want to purchase them on Amazon because it could be a shared account and kids or whatever may see what they're ordering. So, this is a private and secure site and I don't even know how to sell your email so don't worry, that's not going to happen. Where you can purchase good quality products, I vet them out myself to make sure that they don't contain the ingredients that I encourage women to avoid and no pictures with nudity or anything like that because I want it to be a comfortable space or at least as comfortable as we can make it for everybody.   Laura Dugger: (52:24 - 52:43) Wonderful. Well, I'll certainly link that in the show notes as well. And Dr. Christiansen, you are already a friend of The Savvy Sauce, so you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (52:46 - 53:15) Well, you know, James in the Bible is a very practical kind of guy and I love his advice that we should all be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry. And if we were all able to do that or at least just a little more of that, I think our world would be a much better place to live.   Laura Dugger: (53:16 - 53:42) This is so good. I cannot hear that verse enough and I just truly look so forward to the times that I get to spend with you. You are such a calming presence full of wisdom.   That's what we prayed for before we had the recording begin for today. And I am just overflowing with gratitude. So, thank you, Dr. Christiansen, for all that you've shared. Thank you so much for being my returning guest.   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (53:43 - 53:48) Well, thank you, Laura. This has been great. It's an honor to be on your show.   Laura Dugger: (53:50 - 57:32) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Re-Release: Love and Loss with James Jetton   James 1:2-4 (NIV) "Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything."   **Transcription Below**   James Jetton's Bio: My name is James Jetton. I have and still do live a crazy beautiful, challenging, and blessed life. I am blessed to get to raise 4 beautiful children, and I have spent time getting to serve a fantastic community as a Recreation Minister, where I got to combine my love of Jesus, sports, and people. I served in this role for 13 years before my bride Kaetlin was diagnosed with Leukemia in 2020. Unfortunately, after an awe-inspiring journey with cancer, Kaetlin went to meet her Savior in January of 2022.   Clearly, this changed so much of my life trajectory. Currently, I'm working towards obtaining a Masters in Social Work to take the pain and experiences I have had to help others through their pain. Kaet and I were married in 2009 and built a beautiful life; we taught each other so much. So, I deeply desire to take everything we learned together and the lessons the Lord has taught me to help others.   I mentioned earlier that I have 4 exceptional children, Laken, 9, Isla Kaet, 7, Hattie, 6, and Ryder, 4. Laken is my go-getter; she is fearless, strong, and tough. Sweet Isla Kaet is a quiet thinker and planner and is often referred to as little Kaet. She cares deeply and is always looking for ways where she can help and take care of her family. Hattie is our child with special needs and has been diagnosed with GNB-1 Syndrome (a rare genetic disorder). Hattie will light up any room she is in; it's incredible that a child who only has a few words, uses a wheelchair, and is “limited” by our world's standards, can bring joy to people in a way that I never knew was possible. Ryder the caboose is a maniac, and his sisters affectionately call him “Wreck it Ryder” he has no fear and is a super extrovert; he keeps us all on our toes. He is what some would say, “all boy.”   This is a brief bio of me and our circus; through everything, we have found joy in all circumstances. Although there are exceptionally hard days as we have endured much grief, God has always provided, and I am thankful for the life God has given us.   Questions we discuss: Life took an unexpected twist in 2016. Will you catch us up on your discoveries that year? While many of us were in the midst of changing schedules and suddenly homeschooling children in May of 2020, your family was receiving even more news. Will you share that with us now? What is life like for your family these days, as grief likely comes at unexpected times?   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Other Episodes from The Savvy Sauce of God's Faithfulness: 17 Being on Both Sides of Forgiveness with Adelle Dickie 18 Clinging to Jesus as I lived Through My Worst Nightmare with Angela Braker 19 Grief and Triumph and God's Pursuit Though it All with Julie Locke Moore 20 Joy in the Lord Even Through Tremendous Loss…Twice with Rachel Faulkner Brown 62 Unexpected Grief and What Helped Me Through It Can Help You Too with Singer and Blogger, Brittany Price Brooker 78 Parenting the Prodigal Child And God's Desire For Redemption With Mother-Daughter Duo, Claire Stanfill and Tindell Baldwin 79 Radical Business and Radical Parenting with Gary & Marla Ringger, Founders of Lifesong for Orphans 83 Miracles of God with Founder of Midwest Food Bank, David Kieser 120 Our Story for His Glory with Mercedes Cotchery 134 Fashion Meets Faith with Shari Braendel 141 Rescued from Poverty with Norah Birungi 143 Prodigal Story: Sexuality, Drugs, and Scripture with Dr. Christopher Yuan 160 Unleash This Generation with the Power of the Gospel with Greg Stier 161 God Redeems with Hettie Brittz 162 Healing from Spouse's Sexual Addiction with Jennifer Roush 174 Stories of God's Upside Down Economy with Kristen Welch 208 Tremendous Testimony and Adding Spark into Your Marriage with David & Teri Sumlin 223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence 229 Escape from Modern Day Sex Slavery with Rachel Timothy Special Patreon 28 Re-Release: What to Do When You Don't Like Your Story with Sharon Jaynes 231 Stories Series: Faith Building Miracles with Dave Pridemore 232 Stories Series: Testify to Glorify with Richard Gamble 233 Stories Series: Surprises from God with Tiffany Noel Special Patreon Re-Release: Patreon 30 Story of Perseverance with Jenny Boyett 234 Stories Series: Redemption From Sexual Sin in Marriage with Garrett and Brenna Naufel 235 Stories Series: Ever-Present Help in Trouble with Kent Heimer 236 Stories Series: God's Power and Light with Jaime Farrell 237 Stories Series: Prodigal and Redemption with Renee Endress Special Patreon Re-Release: Patreon 31 Unexpected Story of Trauma, Anxiety, Adoption, and Hope with Bettina Stevens 238 Stories Series: God Delights in His Children with Brad Habegger 239 Stories Series: Experiencing the Supernatural with Jackie Coleman 240 Stories Series: God's Rescue and Covering in Parenting with Brenda Dugger 241 Stories Series: From the Mission Field, Experiencing God in the Little and the Big with Patty Sommer 242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel 243 Stories Series: Angel Encounter and Hearing from God with Mary Beth Zimmerman 244 Stories Series: Medical Marvels with Carolyn Henricks 245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow 246 Stories Series: Experiencing God's Tangible Love with Jen Moore 247 Stories Series: Exciting Adventures Follow Radical Obedience with Susan Zobrist 248 Stories Series: Discipline of Celebration in the Midst of Unexpected Loss and Grief with Jonathan Pitts Special Patreon Re-Release: Patreon 49: Story of Healing from Sexual Betrayal in Marriage: An Interview with Bonny Burns 249 Stories Series Conclusion: Now What? Living as Global Christians with Todd Ahrend of The Traveling Team   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:07) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I'm grateful for today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria.   Check them out online to place your order for dining or catering, or to fill out an application to join their friendly team. Visit cfaeastpeoria.com. If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is The Savvy Sauce Charities.   Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations.   All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com. And now, I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons.    My guest for today is James Jetton.   Mark and I attended the same family camp as James in 2022. I observed a father who was very devoted to his children, and one of his precious daughters was in a wheelchair, which was always by his side. He was so tender with his children, and I just assumed his wife was resting while he was attending to the family.   I did not learn of his full story until after camp, and it was through a mutual friend, April Siervo. But then, after she shared a bit more of their story, I immediately reached out to James to request that he share his faith and testimony with us today. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, James.   James Jetton: (2:07 - 2:15) I'm happy to be here. I'm looking forward to talking to you and just kind of sharing how God has moved in our lives the past few years.   Laura Dugger: (2:15 - 2:24) You have already lived through so much, but let's just start here. When did Jesus initially draw you to himself?   James Jetton: (2:26 - 3:25) Yeah, I think that's like, you know, it's a big question, right? But also, it shouldn't be. I think the first time I really just kind of came to know the Lord, I was in the eighth grade.   I had a retreat, and in that moment, for me, it was a situation of— it wasn't necessarily for me, but also just trying to do the right thing. I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, so I was in the Bible Belt. I was like, this is what we're supposed to do.   We're supposed to give our lives to Jesus. But I would say probably going into my senior year of high school, I had some moments just kind of alone at a beach, actually. I was like, what am I doing with my life?   And I believe that that was kind of the first one real moment in my life where I decided, I think I'm going to actually follow the Lord now and not just do this, just to say I'm doing it. And so that was really the first time I really felt the Lord draw me to him. And then, of course, as time goes on, there's all these other little moments throughout where he's continually staying close and bringing me back to him when I feel like I'm drifting away and that sort of thing.   Laura Dugger: (3:27 - 3:39) Thank you for sharing that. And you've written before on your blog that, I'll quote, one of the best decisions I have ever made was when I persuaded Kaetlin to marry me, end quote.   James Jetton: (3:39 - 3:40) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (3:40 - 3:43) James, how did the two of you meet and fall in love?   James Jetton: (3:44 - 5:30) Yeah, so we went to college together. We went to Troy University. I vividly remember a time where she was getting out of her car, and she didn't know me at this time.   But I remember seeing her. I think I met her maybe once or twice through some mutual friends. I remember seeing her get out of the car and literally, I'll never forget this moment.   I was like, man, if I could just have a girl like that. And it stuck with me. And I think the first time we met, I think I made some comments that she wasn't happy about, about some fraternity guys that were in a different fraternity than me that I didn't think too highly of.   But I didn't realize in that moment that she was actually the sweetheart of that fraternity. And so, we kind of got off to a little bad step there. But I remember she broke up with another boyfriend.   That was part of the reason I saw her. And I was like, I could never have a girl like that. All the girls like that are taken.   And so, she broke up with her boyfriend. I remember her best friend called me and was like, “Hey, can I bring her over to y'all's house? Because she just needs to laugh”.   I was like, “Well, we can do that. We can make sure she laughs”. And so, I think from there, we just kind of, I don't know, just we continued to talk.   And for some reason, she liked me a little bit and I liked her a whole lot. And we dated for about three years in college. And when we got out of college, we got married in May of 2009.   And so that was kind of where life began to speed up a lot at that point. But that was the first time I'll never forget those moments. And then there's other things throughout.   But I remember seeing her in the parking lot like that girl.   Laura Dugger: (5:31 - 5:43) So, I love that. And OK, so married in 2009 and then children came a little while later. So how many children did you add to your family?   James Jetton: (5:44 - 6:28) Yeah, we have four kids. Our first child was born in 2013. So, after we got married, we lived back here in Niceville for a little bit but then ended up moving.   She wanted to go to PA school, and I was working a job I didn't care too much for. So, I was like, how quickly can we go to school? And so, we moved to West Tennessee where she went to PA school.   And I ended up going to school there, too, because she studied all the time, and I was bored. And I was like, I guess I should do something productive as well. So that was 2009 and we had a lot of fun.   We love to travel, did a lot of fun things. And then in 2013, we had our first child, Laken.   Laura Dugger: (6:28 - 6:39) And then if you fast forward, life took an unexpected twist in 2016. So, will you catch us up on your discoveries that year?   James Jetton: (6:40 - 13:07) Yeah. So, we, you know, so we had Laken in 2013. Then, we had another part of our - we did have a miscarriage between Laken and Isla who was born in 2015. But then we had Hattie who was born in 2016.   And Hattie's our child with special needs. And she was born in - all of our pregnancies where we used to joke with people that could have babies and just bounce right back and have these beautiful, wonderful pregnancies. And they loved it.   That was not us. Every single one of our pregnancies brought some challenge within it. And so with Hattie, my wife started swelling a lot and kind of found out she had some clotting in her legs.   And so, we ended up having to induce labor for her with that happening. And, you know, when she my wife was also a PA in the ER. So, she understood medical things way better than I did.   I was kind of oblivious to a lot of things. So, she would probably say it was a little bit more scary than I realized it was when she was giving birth. But when Hattie came, like in some accounts, it just kind of seemed normal.   But she was having some trouble breathing. And so, she was in our hospital. In order to go to the NICU, you have to kind of get transferred out to a smaller hospital.   And so, they were keeping her under observation that night. And her breathing wasn't really getting a whole lot better. And they did x-rays and stuff like that, but couldn't really find much.   And then there was a morning where we were about ready to load up and send her to the NICU. And Kaetlin went and held her. And when she went and held her, she started breathing better.   And she calmed down. And it was kind of crazy. It was genuinely like the love of a mother.   Just like this connection seemed to just calm Hattie down. But we ended up finding out later, one of the nurses was amazing. And was like, I think that she has a broken collarbone.   They didn't see it on the x-ray at first because of the way her chin was turned. And so, when they went back and looked, they did another one. And sure enough, she did have a broken collarbone.   So, at the time, we kind of thought that was kind of the reason for her distressed breathing and that sort of thing. And she had trouble latching and sucking. And what we kind of came to find out later is she had what would be called hypotonia.   Which is basically where the best way to describe it in layman's terms is like a floppy baby. Like you hold her up and everything just kind of flops. And I remember Kaitlyn going to her four-month appointment.   And her being very concerned like, “Hey, Hattie's not meeting milestones. And I think that this isn't going to be a good appointment”. And sure enough, the doctor agreed.   We've always had amazing doctors around us. And so, he agreed. And so, we got referred to neurology.   And another just cool story about how God just provides. One of my best friends growing up, his dad was a neurologist in Birmingham. And so, I called him.   And he's like, all right, I got it. You're going to be here next Thursday. I'm like, oh, okay.   When we were kind of told like it's going to be like three or four months before we can even get you into a neurologist. And so, like God just kind of provided that. And we started that journey of trying to figure out what's going on.   And anyone who's ever had a special needs child, especially when you don't know what it is. Because there was nothing we could have done to foresee this happening. What Hattie had was called DeNovo, like just completely her.   Didn't come from me. Didn't come from Kaylin. And there's no other kids with special needs in our family.   It was just something we couldn't have expected or planned or could have even seen or anything like that. And so just kind of going through a lot of different doctors and tests and eventually getting referred to Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. Because at the time they thought it might be a neuromuscular thing.   And so, from there, they're like, oh, we don't think that's what it is. But then we ran a whole bunch of genetic panels. And like you're just going through all of that.   It definitely there's waves, right? Like it's like you want an answer, but at some level you're afraid of the answer. So, like each time we would do testing stuff before nothing would ever come back.   And so, it was like a relief. Okay, well, good. It's not that one.   Okay. Not that one. But then you're still like, well, what is it?   And so, after we went to Baltimore, they did much more extensive genetic testing. We found out she had this genetic disorder, or syndrome is what they're calling it now called GNV1. And it's crazy rare.   Like at the time, there were only 64 known cases. It was discovered in 2016. So, there's chances that there's other kids out there with it.   I think now there's a little over 100 that they know of. We're part of like a Facebook group where there's some of them in there. And so that's what we got the diagnosis for Hattie.   And so, what that means, I guess, probably no one knows what GNV1 is. Not even doctors. We go to doctors like, oh, can you tell us what this is?   We'll do our best. But it just starts out as hypotonia and global delay, which means every aspect of her is delayed from speech to gross and fine motor movements and all that kind of stuff. And also like with kids with special needs, it doesn't seem to affect any one of them the exact same way.   And so, but the thing about Hattie is like she has an infectious smile. She has this joy that is unreal. Like anybody that meets her just can't get enough of her.   And that is true in so many ways. Hattie uses a wheelchair to get around and Hattie's expressive language. So, her ways to communicate is behind.   But she understands everything. I mean, everything, which is pretty amazing, is my understanding. Not all the kids have that ability to receive and understand things as well as she does.   But she is an absolute joy. We used to always say and still do that Hattie's going to change the world. And we know the fact she's changed my world for sure.   And we know she's changed many others. But yeah, I could keep going on and on. But where we are today, like genuinely that she is a purpose and a reason why I've got to get up every single day.   Yeah. So, she's pretty amazing. Like I'm just yeah, I could go on and on about her.   Laura Dugger: (13:08 - 18:15) I think you described her so well with an infectious smile and joy is the word that comes to mind when you see her. Yeah. And now a brief message from our sponsors.   I want to say thank you to our longtime sponsor Chick-fil-A East Peoria. I hope that you've already downloaded the Chick-fil-A app. Because did you know that with the app you can skip the line and have food ready for you when you arrive?   This is one of my favorite options when I'm taking my four daughters to Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Download the Chick-fil-A app today and start earning points toward free rewards that are fully customized to your preferences and tastes. Chick-fil-A was named as one of Glassdoor's best places to work in the nation.   That's a huge honor. And one team member even wrote, no comparison. This is a great job for a first job, extra money or for career advancement.   Such a loving environment, great management and fair pay. Chick-fil-A believes that the local and involved ownership ensures fostering an environment where you are known, challenged and cared for. So, if you're looking for a wonderful place to work, visit Chick-fil-A East Peoria or fill out an application online today at cfaeastpeoria.com.   Are you utilizing Savvy Sauce Charities to full capacity? Other than our special Patreon re-release episodes, our content is now available in video form in addition to our audio only. And we have written transcriptions for every episode.   Visit our website today, thesavvysauce.com, to access all these forms of interviews. And while you're there, make sure you sign up for our email list to receive encouragement, questions and recommended resources about once a month to promote your own practical chats for intentional living. I also want to remind you about the financial side of Savvy Sauce Charities.   As you know, we recently became a non-profit, which means all your financial support is now tax deductible. There are multiple ways to give and we would be so honored if you would share your financial support with us so that we can continue producing free content that is accessible to the general public. Your money will go to support creatively getting the gospel message of Jesus Christ to the nations as we continue to share the good news on every episode.   And I say this is reaching the nations because The Savvy Sauce podcast is downloaded in all 50 United States as well as over 100 countries around the world. Your financial support also supports practical needs such as aiding our team to continue producing helpful content that is practical and uplifting and always pointing to Jesus. Your financial support furthermore will help us continue to expand our reach and secure future projects we have planned for this ministry.   If your ears are hearing this message right now, I am specifically asking you to give. We are so grateful for any amount and our team will continue to seek to be good stewards of the gifts offered to us. So, if you want to write a check or set up an ongoing payment with your bank that delivers a check to us each month, this is the most beneficial way to give because no percentages are taken out for processing fees.   You can make your checkout to: Savvy Sauce Charities, P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois, 61561. Additionally, with our new website, we now have a donate button. There are processing fees that we cover for these donations, but we wanted to offer listeners a seamless way to share their finances with us when we share our content with them.   So just visit thesavvysauce.com and find the donate page under the tab support. Another way to find it is simply type in donate to the search bar on our website and just click the first picture shown. We are all about sharing around here, sharing resources, sharing joy, and sharing the good news about Jesus Christ.   We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing The Savvy Sauce podcast episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review. You can also share any of our social media posts on Instagram or Facebook. We are grateful for all of it, and we just love partnering together with you. Now, back to the show.    In a different season, when many of us were in the midst of changing schedules and suddenly homeschooling our children in May of 2020, your family was receiving even more news. So, will you share that with us now as well?   James Jetton: (18:16 - 22:36) Yeah. We did have our fourth kid, Ryder. He was born in 2018, and he is a wild man.   My wife and I used to always say, or people would tell us, you'll know when you're done. But we had him, and we were like, okay, we're broke. We're done.   No more. But he's awesome. But yeah, the move forward to then, you know, that COVID stuff was really hard.   It was really hard. I was working for a church, and I do sports and rec ministry, and also I was doing student ministry at the time. And so, for me personally, like, things just kind of got shut down.   No one was doing sports leagues, and student ministry looked weirder than ever. And then my wife, she was working in the emergency room as a PA, and so she was facing everything head on. And so, I guess that kind of started in March.   It's funny, just to kind of back up a little bit. We felt prior to that, probably February or March of that 2020, when things were kind of like exploding, we just felt the Lord doing something in our lives. We felt like He was preparing us for something.   We felt like it was going to be something just amazing. But then as we moved forward to try to understand what God is doing, what He was telling us, in May, my 4-year-old, she had her preschool graduation. And I'll never forget this day.   My wife was a go-getter. She's tough. She's strong.   And we had a super weird COVID graduation for Isla, my 4-year-old. And it was weird because it was a drive-through graduation, so we had to get up there early and go do it. So, my wife also, she would do work night shifts so that she could be home with the kids when I couldn't be there.   And so, it wasn't uncommon for her to have to sleep in some. But this was like she hadn't worked the night before, and she hadn't worked. And so, we'd been off for two days, but she was just so exhausted.   She had this terrible headache that morning. And for her to say, like, I can't go to the graduation, that was like, there's something significant here. And I told her, like, she had gone to the doctor about a week before and got on some antibiotics, but it wasn't doing anything.   And I was just like, hey, I think it's time to go back to the doctor because you're not any better. And I've got to take these kids to this graduation. So, I loaded up all the kids.   We went to the drive-through graduation. While I was there, she called and said that her sister was going to take her to the emergency room. So that was a long day.   At that time, COVID was full on, so she couldn't have visitors. No one could come in with her. She had to be dropped off and go inside.   One huge plus in that for our specific situation is that she was taken to her own emergency room. So, she still had her friends and what she would call family there as well. And so, she dropped her off.   My sister-in-law dropped her off and just kind of waited in the parking lot until we figured out what was going on. So, it kind of went throughout that whole day. And I remember that night, the school was doing another virtual graduation where they showed pictures and that sort of thing.   And she texted me and said, I need to talk to you now. I was like, okay, like right now? Because I'm home alone with all four of the kids.   She's like, yeah, and I need you to get away from the kids. I was like, this doesn't sound good. What could this be?   And so, we FaceTimed, and that's where she told me they think I have leukemia. And so then as things started speeding up, we sent out a message to our church asking for prayers. From there, I put the kids to bed.   I drove to Pensacola. She got transferred to Pensacola, and we started treatment there for leukemia. So that was what happened.   That was the big moment in May. And then from there, there's a whole lot more. And so, I'll share as you wish.   Laura Dugger: (22:37 - 22:54) Wow. Thank you for catching us up to that point, James. I can't even imagine the initial devastation that comes.   And as your journey unfolds, I remember seeing a post about leaving your light on.   James Jetton: (22:54 - 24:24) Yeah. Like I said earlier, my wife always did the night shift. And so, I always left the light on for her when she was at work and then turned it off when she came home.   And so, yeah, so early on, I said that I'm not turning the light off until you come home. And so, during that time, the first treatment, it doesn't seem like a lot now because she was in the hospital so much. We didn't know how long she'd be in there.   But the first initial treatment, they're like, you're going to be in for three weeks. And so, I knew that she wouldn't be home for three weeks. And I guess this is me just kind of realizing that was a long time for the kids.   I remember talking to a friend of mine who was leading a small group of high school boys. And I remember him telling them, like, how hard do you think it would be if your mom was gone for three weeks? I was like, yeah, it's not easy.   But so. So, yeah, so that was that was the reason. Just like my wife, one, she was a light in the midst of all the darkness that she was having to face.   And I just wanted to make a point that like, hey, we're leaving this light on for you until you come home. And in a lot of respects, you know, she did go home. Long, long story.   But, yeah, that that was the reason for the light.   Laura Dugger: (24:25 - 24:34) So, well, and the way that you describe her, it sounds like our mutual friend April said her joy was just out of this world.   James Jetton: (24:34 - 24:36) Yeah, that's true.   Laura Dugger: (24:36 - 24:49) It sounds like maybe the both of you share that, but you were not entering into a joyful season. So, what did the next few months and year even look like?   James Jetton: (24:49 - 30:47) Yeah. So initially, when things went down, my wife and I agreed that we would not let our kids lose both their parents. And so, I tried to make it a point to be home at night.   So, when we were in Pensacola, like I would stay with her some nights, but I would also be home at night to put the kids to bed or I would put the kids to bed and I'd drive over that night and come back in the morning or be with her during the day. Like, you know, it was just crazy stuff. One, you know, it happened at the end of the school year.   So, we have all the kids at home. We didn't get to send them off to school. We were blessed to have an amazing college student.   It was one of Kaetlin's girls that she got to mentor when she was in high school. She was an amazing girl. She decided she would be like our nanny that summer.   And so, she was with our kids all day, every day. So, I could go and be with Kaetlin during the day and come home at night. And so, we went through that.   We were here and we did the treatment in Pensacola. It didn't work. And so, the next step at that point was like, well, what are we doing now?   And on a Thursday, the doctor was like, I think we need to go to MD Anderson. We'll see if there's a spot. And then on a Friday, they had a spot.   And then on Monday, we were in Houston at MD Anderson. I went to MD Anderson with her. You know, COVID protocol there still.   I could only be with her for 14 days and inpatient. And then I had to leave as an inpatient. So, I can only go with her for 14 days in that initial time.   And so, we went there. She started a treatment plan. We found an apartment.   And then I left. And then her dad came. And her dad was huge in a lot of this stuff and was able to allow us to do things like me and be with the kids.   And so, I think I stayed there for 10 days. And then he came over to stay with Kaetlin to take her back and forth to the hospital, just receiving treatment. And then I came home, and I came back to Niceville.   And that was during the summer. July, we were at home. We stayed in Niceville just kind of waiting to see, like, is Kaet going to be there longer?   Or is she going to be coming back here? And that was a wild summer. And this is what I think I would tell a lot of people that are going through hard things.   Like just because you're going through hard things doesn't mean there's other hard things. They're just a part of life. And, you know, when you have four kids, stuff happens.   You know, like we had one of my daughters, Isla, she had to have eye surgery that summer. While Kaet was in Houston. So that was an interesting thing.   My four-year-old son, he busted his head open on the back of a step going outside. So, he had to have some stitches in his head. He's the second that has had stitches in our family.   And he was the youngest. So, then the treatment, the goal was to get her to a place where she could do a bone marrow transplant. And so, we got, they got her to that point.   Her leukemia cell counts were low enough that we're ready to do a bone marrow transplant. And at that point, you know, we decided we're going to move to Houston. Everything was virtual at that time.   And I just couldn't see any reason why we couldn't all be together in Houston. And so, we found an apartment, we hunkered down. It's a two-bedroom apartment.   We built some makeshift bunk beds. And so, we moved there in August. And the community we have here was unreal.   The support that we have. Like I didn't, we didn't have to make a meal for, I felt like six months, I think. Like it was just crazy.   And people were allowing it and giving us money. So, we didn't have to worry about these kinds of things and what we're doing. And from moving packing boxes, like, I mean, I can't, it's just unfathomable.   All the different things that were put in place for us to do, to do what we did. And I don't think it would have happened without the community that came around us and our church here was great, but I've got to see The Big-C Church. And, and, and it was, it was amazing.   And so, we ended up, we all moved to Houston, and we lived in a two-bedroom apartment. Part of that story is like, you know, it's like, all right, we're doing this. And then talk about kids.   My four-year-old, the one that had also had the eye surgery, she had broken her ankle on a scooter. Like a week before we're going, it was like, are you kidding me? How is this happening right now?   But we had some great friends like, you know, when your wife is involved in the middle of the medical world, it makes access to doctors and stuff a lot easier when you're in a small town, like we are. So, they got it taken care of, got her in a cast. I was like, yeah, but we can't return with this hard cast.   We're going to Houston. He's like, all right, we'll get her in a hard cast. And we'll put her in a boot for the rest of the time.   So, we moved there. And you know, the dreams of like riding scooters around downtown Houston and doing all this kind of stuff kind of went away a little bit with the kid. And so, he, but there was a pool there.   So, we went swimming, she could swim. And so, we, we just made the best of what we had. Like we, we had a lot of good memories in that little apartment, even though it was, it was tough.   I remember, we, Halloween wasn't too long ago. We had our own little Halloween party in that apartment where we all dressed up, even Kaet. Cause she ended up getting her bone marrow transplant that time.   And another aspect of where dad was so important is when you get in the bone marrow transplant, you cannot leave, and you can have one guest. And so, her dad came and he stayed with her. It was about 30 days of bone marrow transplant.   And so, he was there with her so I could be with the kids, doing the best I can with that virtual school and, and managing Ryder and Hattie in the midst of trying to do school work with the kids. It's nothing I ever want to go back to.   Laura Dugger: (30:48 - 31:03) Well, and not to mention you appreciate The Big-C Church, but Houston was not your long-term community. So, being here in this new place and all of these transitions, what were the results of her bone marrow transplant?   James Jetton: (31:04 - 40:17) Yeah. So, the bone marrow transplant, it ended up working. She went into remission and so we get to come home Thanksgiving of 2020.   We came home and that was awesome. It was like a huge homecoming. Finally got back home.   She's, she's in remission. We felt like we'd beaten this. We, you know, we got that Christmas here and we were back home.   We even, our family always loves to go, has always gone to North Carolina for vacation every year. And we didn't get to do that. But so, it was like, now we're going.   And so, in January we're like, all right, we're going kids. It was just me and the kids and Kaet and we wanted to go see snow. So, we went up there and we found a place to stay.   It was an awesome trip. Loved it so much. We, when we had to check out of our place, we found another house so we could stay in for a few more days.   And so, you know, at that time though, when we were doing that, she was kind of having these red bumps kind of popping up over her. We didn't really know what it was. It could have been a reaction.   We couldn't figure it out. Saw some doctors here locally. No one could really figure out what it was.   And I think fast forward, what we found out probably, I think it was February. She came out of remission and that was kind of the beginning signs of her coming out of remission. And so that's where, life sped up.   Like, I mean, if it wasn't already fast, it was, it was just unreal. It was like a whirlwind like it was because she had to fly to Houston to go and see her doctors. And so, she was in Houston by herself when she found out that she had come out of remission, and they were going to start immediately.   So, she stays, and she flies over on Friday and on Monday they got her back doing her treatment. And so, and I was like, well, it looks like we're moving to Houston. And I was like, but this time we're not staying in a two-bedroom apartment.   It's like we're going to make this a little bit more manageable for us. So, we had some great family. Kaetlin actually had a cousin who lived in Houston.   We found a house inside their neighborhood that we could rent. And this was, you know, more, more provision that he just continued to show. We found this house in like a week and we had people from our community boxing up everything in our house.   He's gotten a truck, and we thought that we'd all get everything in one truck. But we didn't get everything in one truck. We'd even hired the movers to load up the truck.   They couldn't get it all in there. So, I was like, y'all told me that it would all fit on this truck, but now it's not. And it's Friday at like 5 p.m. when we were supposed to leave tonight. So, we're not leaving. But my brother came down. I had another one of my best friends come down and they were like, we got to go, we're going to make this happen.   So that next morning, I'm not kidding. When there was like 20 to 30 guys in my house, a brother had gotten the truck. I hadn't even, they left early to go with the truck.   I'd come. And I was at the house with the kids at a friend's house. And when me and the kids showed up, these 30 guys had already loaded up the truck and we were ready to go.   Guy came and dropped off a big spread of McDonald's for everybody. We prayed over us and we headed out that morning. And so, it was just, I mean, just crazy that, you know, in one week we packed up a four-bedroom house, loaded up two trucks and drove to Houston and we're now unloading at a new house in Houston.   And, and that's where we were for a while. That was where Kaetlin, then we went back into the treatment more aggressively trying to get her back to remission. And so that was, when we moved there in March of 2021.   And that was kind of our place for a while. We actually thought we'd be there for a real long time. Kids had started school there, trying our best to get connected community there, but it's difficult, especially when you've come from a place where you feel so connected and then you're moving somewhere new where you don't really know anybody.   And then you're moving there in a time where the whole town shut down. It was tough, but we got the kids back in school. We tried to start getting them back into normalcy of life.   And there's all these new trials when you're going through this stuff every day, it seems like there's a new trial. MD Anderson is amazing. They treat each patient. It's like an individual.   So, every plan they have is just specifically for that patient. And so, they were going to try to do this CAR T-cell treatment. So, we'd kind of gone through the whole summer, and then we get to the point where she's going to do her CAR T-cell treatment.   Now, you know, we, we were hunkered down with this COVID stuff. Like we didn't, we didn't do much. We got really good at DoorDash and grocery delivery.   And we, you know, we masked up everywhere we could because Kaetlin's system was so immuno-compromised and we had done what we had thought was a very good job of keeping her safe, keeping everyone safe. Well, and then she got to the point where she was ready to start this new trial with CAR T-cell treatment. And she gets admitted that night and every time they go in and they give her a COVID test, well, that night she had COVID.   And it was, it was like, what? And she didn't feel bad. Her dad had gotten it too.   Like we, and I, so I remember getting that, it was like one o'clock in the morning. I was asleep. I remember it like blowing up my phone.   And I was like, I didn't realize it until later. And I talked to her. And that was definitely a tough conversation because she had to like get moved, packed up and moved out and moved to a different place and then treatment for the COVID stuff.   But the crazy part was, and it was kind of, you know, I wanted to get frustrated about things I could, but like, she had zero symptoms and she had just tested positive. And so, the next morning we all had to go get tested. And it was just the weirdest thing.   I know that COVID has been so devastating to so many people. But in that moment for us, it was like, we don't like, I was like, I ran nine miles yesterday and now I'm positive for COVID. I don't.   And so, but what it did was it kicked her out of the trial that she was on. And so, then she had to come home. The next process was just kind of getting her ready for that same thing.   Basically, what her doctor did was like, I'm not taking out, you're going to get kicked off the trial, but I'm just going to make you my own individual patient. We're going to do it that way. And so, we had some, we had some pretty high hopes for this.   Doctor seemed pretty optimistic about this plan. And so, we had been renting our house in, in Niceville. And with this new plan, I would have had Kaetlin there for like three years.   And so, we were like, you know, do we really want to rent our house anymore? It's like, no, we don't. All right, well let's sell our house.   So, we sold our house, and it sold in like less than 24 hours. And it's like $25,000 over asking price. It was like, well, okay, God, I feel like that's what we're supposed to do.   And so, she went in to get that treatment. And, and, uh, unfortunately, uh, we found out that didn't work. Uh, it was like, well, she can't remember coming home and saying like, well, I'm ready.   I want to go back home. I was like, what? We just sold our house.   We don't have a home right now. But God always makes a way and you always provide always. Um, and so we, you know, I was like, all right, we want to go home.   We're going to go home. And at first I was being very logical. I was like, well, let's let the kids finish out the semester.   Cause this was like around Halloween is when she realized it didn't work and we're going to come home. So, we were able to come home. We had some amazingly generous friends who they got us a private flight to come home for that Halloween.   And I guess when we were there, um, that's where we really just decided we need to be back. And, and so she, when we went back to talk to her doctors about managing her leukemia remotely. And so that was what the plan was.   So we, we moved back that Thanksgiving, uh, with all of our stuff and we were looking for a place to stay. It was actually kind of a fun month. We were living on the beach for a couple months or really from Thanksgiving to right before Christmas.   We had some pretty awesome things come available. We were able to live in a house on the beach. And so that was, that was mine and my wife's always kind of like a special place.   And so, we love the water, and we love the beach. And so that was an awesome place for us to be. And so, uh, coming back, it was tough.   She was getting out of the hospital a lot just with fevers and stuff like that. And then we got to have Christmas here that December. And then January 9th of this past year, she, she, uh, eventually passed away.   We weren't expecting, I mean, we knew that there would be an end, but I don't think we could have expected it to, um, happen then. And I think we kind of thought we'd have a little bit more time, but we didn't, but we were thankful. I'm thankful for my wife.   It was like we got to get back now because we knew that when an issue did pass that we needed to be in our hometown and not in Houston, where our community was much smaller.   Laura Dugger: (40:18 - 40:27) So, yeah. And so, you're together, you're celebrating Christmas. And then things suddenly turned unexpectedly.   James Jetton: (40:28 - 40:28) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (40:28 - 40:31) And that led to losing her on January 9th.   James Jetton: (40:32 - 44:59) Yeah. You know, nothing really happened like, you know, in that leukemia world. And you know, a lot of cancers that give you like, you know, a prognosis like, you have three months, you have four months full, but blood cancer is very different.   And it kind of exacts you and, and there's no way to really know for sure, like, is this going to work or how long do we have and that sort of thing. And she was just in and out of the hospital so much. When we came back home, when you have leukemia, anytime you have a fever above a hundred point four, it's like you're immediately going to the doctor.   And so that's kind of how, you know, when she went in, like, there's still kind of an expectation that she would come home. But then those last few days, like, I just, I vividly remember as we're trying to figure out what to do, we're going to, are we going to go to a new treatment plan or we're going to try something else? Or, or is this kind of the end?   And her doctor here, he said, there was a plan that we possibly could have done, but he was like, they're saying this got a success rate of like, whatever, nine of 10 people went into remission with it. He's like, but when you look closer, they were only in remission for four weeks. And he was like, is this what we want to do?   Cause chemo just, it wipes you out. And it's like, there's no way to continue to live like this. But she, Kaetlin, she was, she just had a way of bringing a peace over everybody.   She had a way of like knowing exactly what everyone needed, I guess, in some respects. Cause I remember leaving the day we decided we would not do the treatment plan. And I came home, like I said, I always try to be home to put my kids to bed.   She said that the night before it kind of, she went downhill fast. She got up and walked around the hospital with her dad and told her dad like, “Hey, I think I'm going to do, I think I'm going to do it. I'm going to do the treatment plan.”   You know, I've talked to him about this, but I feel like that was almost like the piece he needed to go home. You know, when she passed, it was like, it was beautiful. Like it was, it was such a blessing that she was in her home hospital and that the doors, it was like a revolving door.   I remember Kaetlin told me once, she said, “when I pass or when I'm in the last days, don't tell anyone that they can't come see me.” And so, we were trying to figure out how we're going to do this. And I was like, well, she said that anybody who wants to come see me, let them come see me.   And so, we put a word out and there was like a revolving door of people just coming in and out of the room all day. Like the doctors, the ER told the front desk people, like, you know, technically, I guess you're only supposed to have like two visitors or something because of the COVID things. And she was like, anybody that comes in and says they want to see Kaetlin Jetton, you say, “Go on up”.   So it was, it was pretty awesome seeing all these people come in and see her. And we had already gotten to see the impact that she had made on so many people's lives for the past couple of years, but it was cool to see them all there doing that. And I remember the night she passed, I leaned over, I was heading home and two of my best friends since the ninth grade had come down and they were at the house with the kids and I was coming home to put the kids to bed.   And I leaned over and gave her a kiss and I said, don't wait on me. It's like, it's okay. It's time to go home.   And sure enough, that's, I left that night and I got a phone call about 11 from her dad and she had passed and that, and I think that, you know, in some respects, it's like, should I have been there? I was like, but I think that also was like, no, Kaet wanted you to be with your two guys. And Kayla knew that her family would be there with her.   And she did exactly what she wanted to do. You know, she always had a plan even from her like celebration service. She had everything written out.   Who's going to speak, what songs are playing, when are we doing this? And so it was, it was, you know, it was pretty cool seeing how many people just came in and out and how she just kind of felt like she knew what she was doing, even up in the last days. So.   Laura Dugger: (45:00 - 45:55) Do you love The Savvy Sauce? Do you gain anything when you listen? Did you know that the two ways we earn money to keep this podcast live is through generous contributions from listeners and from our paying sponsors.   That means we can promote your business and you're still supporting The Savvy Sauce. It's a win-win. Please email us today at info@thesavvysauce.com to inquire about pricing for sponsoring each episode. Thank you for your consideration.    Well, James, your perspective is incredible. And yet I'm so sorry, such a deep loss for your whole family.   And what is life like now for all of your family these days? Cause it's still very recent. And I'm wondering if grief still comes up at unexpected times.   James Jetton: (45:56 - 50:49) Yeah. You know, it's, you know, it's a day-to-day thing, I believe. I don't, and grief is certainly something that sometimes you don't see it coming.   And I'll say, I love bragging on this community. I love bragging on this town so much. So, my kids, they're all in school, you know, and I'm bragging on my kids too.   After she passed, the kids got to stay home for a couple of weeks, but then it was time to go back to school. My two girls go to one school where actually Kaetlin went to school from kindergarten all through. So, I felt like that was a very special thing for her and the kids could go to the same school that their mom went to.   But then Hattie goes to a different school because of her special needs. And then Ryder goes to a different school. He's in preschool.   And so, after she passed, like, so it was complicated in the sense of, I've got to get Hattie to school at 7:30. I've got to get Lincoln out of school by like 8:45 and then Ryder can go in before 9:00 a.m. So, I would usually drop him off on the way. But I say, I'd say like, what does life look like?   Well, after she passed, I knew like, how am I going to make this work? And that semester, there was somebody in my house every morning at 7:00 a.m. to sit with the kids, help with breakfast, and help finish getting them ready while I could take Hattie to school at 7:30. And then I would come back home and after they finished getting ready, then I would take them to school. So, I had someone in my house every morning at 7:00 a.m. after she passed, which was, you know, they were doing it for the kids, but they were doing it for me too. I knew that I couldn't just lay in my bed and let people just come on in and take care of my kids. Like I had to get up, take a shower, look like I'm somewhat presentable and go on. And that's kind of how that last semester was, just community and people with meals and then through all that, trying to get them engaged, get them back into doing some things that they love to do.   And yeah, I like to brag on my kids in a lot of ways, this perspective kind of dawned on me in the past couple of weeks of like, I sent them back into a new school where they know very many people. Everybody knows them. Not everyone.   I don't know everybody. And they had to go and do that a few weeks after their mom passed. Here I am trying to stay away from people and not have a whole bunch of conversations, but yet the kids are stepping up and doing their thing.   And man, it's just, it's pretty inspiring when I think of it in that respect as well. Nowadays we are blessed that we get to have a nanny and it's, that's a whole cool story in itself. And that she worked with me in student ministry, and I'd actually left to go be a nanny for some other people in Nashville.   And I was texting her trying to figure out, “Hey, I need some help. You got any friends down here that want to be a nanny? Cause it's hard to find.”   And she's like, “Actually, I would love to come back and do it.” And that was just a huge blessing. Cause it was like, at the time of us having all these new things, I was able to be able to have somebody that the kids already knew come in and be there.   And so, she helps in so many ways and allows the kids to do their tennis and their soccer and gymnastics or whatever it may be. And it allows me to get to, coach them and be a part of that, those aspects of life, which I love doing so much. And so, she's really helped.   So, in our day to day now, like it, it's a lot of moving pieces. I mean, just last week, we got to go to a widower's retreat and there was never a worry, never worry about who's taking care of the kids, that they're getting to where they need to be. So, it's a genuine, like I get to see how a village truly takes care of the kids.   And yes, there are days and it's hard. And some days it just kind of sucks and it sucks for them. It sucks for me.   But I have gotten to see how God still shows out through the difficult moments and how he still provides no matter how far away I am or how close I am. He still continually provides. And I know that, and I know that he will not let us down.   It's one day at a time. And as we approach these new seasons, there's always new seasons. You talk about grief and things pop up.   I think that holidays will bring up stuff they already have in some respects and my wife, you know, she was a medical professional. So, when kids get sick, it's different now. We go to the doctor more often because mom's not here to take care of them and call in medicine.   But I think that we do sense a void in that when kids are sick and that sort of thing. But, today, like things are okay. We're doing all right.   Laura Dugger: (50:50 - 51:07) Well, and James, you were a journalism major and you're a very gifted writer. So where would you direct us to get to read more about your family and stay current and hopefully find ways that we can further support you?   James Jetton: (51:08 - 52:18) Well, my wife and I, we started a blog called Our Hands Go Up, and it's OurHandsGoUp.com. And that's formed out of, started with Hattie. That's where the blog started because Hattie, we talked about that joy that she has, but our hands will always go up.   Like her hands go up all the time and it just seems so appropriate. And the picture of hands going up, there's so many things that go to that with our praise to God, our vulnerability and our sides. And there's just a lot that comes through that anyway.   But yeah, Kaetlin started writing on that and I wrote some in that. She spearheaded it because she's way more organized and detailed than I am. So, it looks a lot prettier than what I would have done, but here recently, like I've felt a calling to bring it back and revitalize it.   So as of right now, like there's, my wife wrote a lot, and she still has writings that she never shared with anybody. So, I've started revitalizing it by sharing some of her writings, but I will be writing in there as well. So that would probably be a good place or even, and then my, just my social media, James Jetton, you can always see some crazy stories of my kids.   Laura Dugger: (52:21 - 52:34) Oh, wonderful. We will link to both of those in our show notes. And are there any practical needs that you do have at this time or any specific prayer requests you would like to share with us?   James Jetton: (52:35 - 53:26) You know, I think the specific prayer requests are just for me and for my kids. So, things are going to look different for them for sure. And I know there's going to be some hard moments.   So, I guess the prayer would just be, you know, provision as God's always provided. And, you know, when I say that, I don't just talk about it in like a material way, but like He seems to provide us with feelings, emotions, people, support, all of that. And so just provision for my kids and just encouragement and support for them as we've kind of walked through these, these new firsts for the kids and, and that it will just, they will still have, find the joy that we always talk about choosing and, and that my wife did so well that we will continue to find that joy through these more difficult days ahead for sure.   Laura Dugger: (53:26 - 53:58) Yes, Lord may it be so. Well, James, you clearly just have so much wisdom to share and I appreciate you walking through so much of your personal journey. And I know that you also do have a lighthearted personality and we're going to end on a lighter note because you may know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   James Jetton: (54:01 - 54:51) You know, my Savvy Sauce, it's just, it's one day at a time. I think that we get overwhelmed with, you know, I joke with people, like it's a stupid joke. But hey, if God wanted to give us more than one day at a time, He would. So, we only get one day, and He doesn't give us two days at one time.   You know, just taking things as they come one day at a time. We all have our goals. We all have our plans, our dreams and aspirations, but leaving space for the Holy Spirit and how God moves is critical.   And when you're walking through grief and you're walking through hard stuff, like thinking about too much out there in front of you can be debilitating. And so just focus on what your next step, just take one more step. We can always take one more step.   And so just kind of day at a time and just take one more step.   Laura Dugger: (54:52 - 55:08) James, thank you for your faithfulness to Kaet, your faithfulness to our Lord, your faithfulness to your children. And we will all be praying for each of you in this coming season and beyond. And just really grateful for you being my guest today.   James Jetton: (55:09 - 55:26) Well, I'm really grateful to be here. This is great. I'm thankful for the chance to just share her story and share our story.   I feel God has just moved and worked through us in so many amazing ways. And anytime I can get a chance to share how God has moved and worked, I'm thankful. So, thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger: (55:26 - 58:42) It's been an honor. One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We wa

259. God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen   **Transcription Below**   “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.” John 10:27 NIV   Questions and Topics We Discuss: How can we actually disciple our children to listen to God and recognize when they are hearing from the Holy Spirit as well? You've stated, "If you want to hear him, cultivate wonder." Will you elaborate? What are some follow up questions we can ask our kids to actually put this into practice?   Chris Allen is married to Rachael and they have three kids. Chris has a masters degree in spiritual formation from Richmont Graduate University and he is a trained spiritual director. Previously Chris was a pastor in full time ministry for many years, but he is also a technology entrepreneur and is currently working in the technology group at Chick-fil-A.    Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:   231 Stories Series: Faith Building Miracles with Dave Pridemore   Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:36) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here.    The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.   Owned and operated by the Birchie family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at samlemanchevy.com.    Chris Allen is my guest today.   He has a master's degree in spiritual formation from Richmond Graduate University, and he's also a trained spiritual director. Previously, Chris was in full-time ministry as a pastor for many years, but he's also a technology entrepreneur, and currently he's working in the technology group at Chick-fil-A. Chris and my husband, Mark, actually go way back, so I've also invited Mark to come along with me today to interview Chris as we ask him more about cultivating wonder in our children and helping them to understand how to hear from God so that they can enjoy a conversational relationship with the Lord.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Mark, and Chris.   Mark Dugger: (1:38 - 1:39) Hey, thanks. Great to be here.    Chris Allen: (1:39 – 1:41) Yeah, it's great to be here.   Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 1:48) Well, I just want to start off and have both of you just take us back to how you two initially met.   Chris Allen: (1:49 - 2:20) Oh, gosh, that's dangerous, Laura. Are you sure you want to do that? Well, Mark and I met in, I think it was fourth grade. But I've kind of known for not having the best memory, so I could have that off.   Maybe Mark will correct me, but yeah, starting somewhere in maybe sixth grade, we started kind of being pretty close and spent a lot, a lot of years together through middle school and high school and into adulthood, so it's been a while. Yeah, Mark?   Mark Dugger: (2:20 - 2:32) I'm pretty sure we were in the nursery together at church growing up, so clearly you meant more to me than I meant to you. I think is what it's coming down to, but that's okay.   Chris Allen: (2:33 - 2:38) I know that's been a theme in our relationship, but you are very important to me, Mark.   Mark Dugger: (2:39 - 2:58) No, I just remember a mutual friend of ours moved away, and I think that was the catalyst for us starting to hang out. You lived right behind him. I would go to his house all the time, and then when he moved away, that was kind of the catalyst for us to start hanging out, and then I feel like we were pretty much inseparable from then on.   Chris Allen: (2:59 - 3:07) See, it's always good to have at least someone who remembers, but I do know that you're important to me today.   Mark Dugger: (3:08 - 3:10) Well, thank you, Chris.   Laura Dugger: (3:11 - 3:34) Well, and it's been awesome just to hear the stories of growing up together and being close through all the years, but you guys also had so many unique opportunities. As I hear how both of you had a faith at a reasonably young age, so I'd love to hear from both of you, what were some of your experiences through those formative years that grew your faith?   Chris Allen: (3:39 - 5:27) Yeah. Looking back on those years is kind of interesting for me. I became captivated by Jesus around the age of 13, and it really kind of consumed my time, at least mostly, and not because I needed to or had to.   It was I wanted to. In our church community, mostly our youth group, just kind of became honestly where I spent most of my time. Mark and I kind of experienced that together. So, I think we had a lot of time there.   We had a really tight-knit community. And then the other big thing was pretty early, we both kind of got invited into participating in God's work in different ways. We would lead things at our youth group.   We started leading things. Other youth groups started having us come in, and we had a worship band, and we would facilitate study and some teaching. But looking back at that, I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe they let me lead anything.   And so, it really, for me, illuminates how God has chosen to work in our lives. He invites us to participate in His kingdom. There is no qualification for that.   It's just as we are. And then He uses our participation not only to create fruit, like others are impacted by it, but He also shapes us in the process. And so, I think that's always true.   It's true today of all of us, but I can see it a little bit more clearly when I look back at that season. Yeah.   Mark Dugger: (5:29 - 6:20) Well, Chris, you glossed over the fact about talking about the praise band that we were part of and how I was really the core being the manager, aka sound manager. It was awful. I was literally there with no musical inclination whatsoever, and I was only there by association because you guys were awesome musicians, leading worship in incredible ways.   And I was the tagalong who we would do sound checks, and you would be like, “hey, Mark, can you turn up the left monitor? No, no, no, no, not that one. The other monitor. No, wait, no. You know what? I'm just going to come back and just do it for you.”   And so really, I was the glue that held everyone together. You didn't really talk about that part.   Chris Allen: (6:21 - 6:51) Yeah. I'm so glad you brought it up, Mark. Yeah, there was a lot of trips running from the stage to the soundboard to do the thing I was trying to get Mark to do.   But no, Mark, you were incredibly supportive in those years. All that was accurate, except for the amazing musician part. We maybe could say that about him, but for me, I think I knew just enough to maybe get through the song.   Mark Dugger: (6:52 - 8:45) Well, I was going to say, in all seriousness, there was one particular retreat I remember specifically, and you let me do the closing message at the very end, and it was going to be on the Prodigal Son. And I remember being like, this is one of those cool experiences that's still surreal to me that came in. I felt like I was kind of the closing deal. And so, I remember there being a lot of pride involved in that.   And I remember hearing about the Prodigal Son and knowing that story really well. And I came in just thinking, all right, I'm just going to just bring it and it's going to be amazing. And all of these kids are going to come and know the Lord.   And I remember even in my arrogance and pride, God still shined through. And I remember getting off that stage when I was about to walk off. I remember just, I even like forgot my words at one point and walked off the stage.   And it was absolutely, I felt embarrassed, and I felt like I had just failed God through my pride and arrogance. And then all of a sudden, you came in and kind of rescued this amazing moment and really closed out that message. And I'll just never forget how shaping that was for me, that seeing even in spite of arrogance and pride and fault and sin of my own, that God can still use those things for His good.   And I just remember that being such a shaping moment for me. And really just, I think it further grew our friendship just to see, you just kind of pick me up in that way and answer God's call and have the courage just to kind of lead through it there. So, I just remember that being just a profound moment in my faith and growth.   Chris Allen: (8:47 - 9:01) Yeah. Well, that's a great example of just the kinds of things we got to experience at that age. And I think it was really formative for both of us to get to do that in middle school and high school years.   Laura Dugger: (9:03 - 9:28) And I've just gotten to know this over the years, hearing all of these stories of the two of you and Adam Johnson, who was part of the band. And it's incredible to be so close in friendship still, all three of you, and now they're awesome wives. And so, switching gears though, from the past now, Chris, can you catch us up on your current life stage with your family as well?   Chris Allen: (9:29 - 10:34) Well, the biggest news is we just got a new pup. I don't know if you can hear him barking in the background, but Walt is our newest member. He's a little Shih poos.   So, he is a fluffy monster, which is wonderful when you're petting him, not so great when you have to pay for the grooming. But it's actually, it's been really good. We've talked about getting a dog for a lot of years, and our kids are just at the perfect season to soak it up.   So, we have three kids, 11, 9, and 6 (Ryan, Ramsey and Harvey) and my wife, Rachel. We are coming up on 16 years of marriage here this fall. So yeah, that's the season we're in.   We're having a lot of fun. It's like, you know, people keep telling me like, you're in the golden years. And I feel like we're actually experiencing it and enjoying it for the most part.   Of course, there's always, always the things. But yes, that's where we are.   Mark Dugger: (10:35 - 11:23) So, I want to go back here recently. We were on a drive down to Atlanta, and our kids love their phone conversations with Uncle Chris on the way down. And I just remember one specific instance where we were talking to you and asking you about this experience you had to, you were asked to lead a retreat for Ryan's school.   And we were just blown away by what you were learning, what you were experiencing, and then especially how you talked about growing in faith and really building a life of relationship with God and your kids. So, do you mind kind of just sharing us a little synopsis of that talk and what that looked like?   Chris Allen: (11:25 - 19:12) Yes, I'd be happy to. But first, I feel like the audience should know that most of my calls with your girls in the van are Uncle Chris trying to sell them a pizza or order a pizza with random things on it or making up like random songs or being a random character. So, it's mostly joking conversation.   And I'm not actually their uncle. We've just given me that title because we're close. But yeah, that's most of our conversations.   But yeah, I got invited to be the speaker at the fifth-grade retreat for my son's class. So, it was like a three-day retreat for their grade at his school. And as I was wrestling with like, okay, well, what, you know, what am I going to share?   I don't do that sort of thing that often. So, I'm usually excited when I get the opportunity to, but was just kind of sorting out, all right, what, like, God, what do you want to share with them? And this thought, actually, I should say, this was planned way in advance, and like, like, six to eight months in advance.   And it was kind of like in the back of my mind for a lot of months. And I had nothing like I had no clarity about what I was gonna talk about. And of course, you know, as you get closer and closer, you know, it starts to like, be a little bit more on your mind.   But I kept coming back to this thought of like, no, like, you know, God will bring clarity when he's ready. And trying to hold on to that thought. And then as we got like two weeks out, this thought just came, it was like, what if they began a conversational life with God at fifth grade?   Like, I've been working on this project that's kind of about how to help adults develop a conversational life with God. And before this moment, like I had not put these two opportunities together. But once that thought came, like, it just lit me up.   Because obviously, I have three kids that are kind of in that stage. And, you know, we're constantly pursuing them spiritually and trying to help them explore who God is. But that's not necessarily easy.   And obviously, trying to help them develop their own life with God, which is not easy, you know, they're kids, and they see things differently. And so for me, it was like, wow, what if they started now? You know, for adults, I think it's really hard.   Like prayer can mean a lot of things. I think most adults feel like prayer or conversation with God is somewhat hard. It's something they struggle with, typically something they want more of, but maybe don't feel super successful in.   So, the thought was, you know if you start in fifth grade, what would that change? Um, so I kind of went on a journey of trying to think about how could I help them? How could I help them explore this?   How could I help them start a conversational life with God? And that that kind of ended up being, you know, what the series of talks that I gave throughout the retreat were. So, my second thing was around like, if you want to hear him, you've got to cultivate wonder, which I'll come back to in just a second.   And then my third thing is, was teaching them to pay attention to their thought life, which we can dive into more. But the wonder piece, it may not be obvious, like why wonder, you know, why is that important? Um, so let me just speak to that for a second.   So, uh, the way I like to think about wonder is if you've ever been snorkeling in like the ocean, ideally in really clear water, uh, there's this moment, like, right. So, like you go out on a boat, you get to the spot where you're going to snorkel, you've got all your gear, you get in the water. And there's this moment where you're, you're about to go underwater, but before you do your head's still above the water, right.   And in this moment, you're like so close to beginning to see this whole new world that's underneath the water. Uh, but for this moment, your eyeline is above the water and you're really like, that's all you see. Like you really, you really can't, like, if you look down, you just see kind of like this fuzzy picture, right.   This distorted kind of water picture. Uh, but you can see for miles and miles across the top of the water, you see the sky, like there's so much above the water that you can see. Right.   And then you put your goggles on, and you drop your head down like six inches. And all of a sudden there's this whole other world, uh, that you really didn't have access to before that moment, right. You couldn't really see what was going on down there until you put your head under the water.   Uh, but then all of a sudden you start to see, you know, depths of the ocean. Uh, you know, reefs, all these, you know, different colors, all these different fish, wildlife, you know. Um, and then the same is kind of true when you're underwater. Like if you go underwater and look up, you can like see a vague color of the sky, but it's kind of all distorted.   So, I like this analogy because it kind of, it's like you almost have like two totally separate kingdoms, right? Like the underwater world and the above water world, they are right next to each other. There is this point at which they touch, but they operate so differently.   Like, you know, everything underwater is different, right? You can't breathe, like oxygen is different. Uh, you know, uh, the way you move is different.   You got to swim, you can't walk. Like the way things work underwater is different than how they work out of water. And I think the kingdom of God in the kingdom of earth is kind of similar.   Like there is a threshold at which they touch, but they, they operate so differently. Like the kingdom of God is just different. It's different than what we know in the kingdom of earth.   So essentially, uh, I kind of see like all of life is us, you know, trying to, or working towards participating with God in the kingdom. His kingdom, uh, while we are operating here on earth and the kingdom of earth. Um, and so wonder for me is, is like the goggles, uh, that help us move back and forth between kingdom of earth and kingdom of God. Uh, like when you put the goggles on, you know, you can, you can open your eyes underwater depending on the water, uh, but you can see so much better with, with goggles.   And so, um, wonder for me is like, is the vehicle that helps me move towards the kingdom of God. So, um, I'll, I'll, I'll share more about kind of like how I talked with the kids about that, but God speaks to his kids. If you want to hear them cultivate wonder.   And then lastly, pay attention to your thoughts. Uh, so that's, that's kind of what we talked about.   Laura Dugger: (19:14 - 21:09) And now a brief message from our sponsor. Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Birchie family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Steven's grandfather, Sam Leman opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.   If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did with honesty and integrity. Sam and Steven understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle.   This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experienced something different.   I've known Sam and Steven and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you to check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread. So come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet and Eureka.   Sam and Steven would love to see you and they appreciate your business. Learn more at their website, samlemanchevy.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at 309-467-2351.   Thanks for your sponsorship.    Well, and I love all of those. So let's just slow it down and kind of go through all three, beginning with that first statement that you make that God speaks to his kids.   And from previous conversations, I know that Mark and I agree with you on that, but not everybody does. Even those who are in the faith community may not agree that God is still speaking to his children. And so, what would you say is the basis for your belief on that?   Chris Allen: (21:11 - 23:18) Yeah, that's a big question. Well, you know, I think, I think it's pretty clear in scripture. Like, you know, we have in John 10 where he says, “I'm the good shepherd.   I know my sheep and my sheep will know, they'll know my voice. They listen to me.” Like, and if you read that section, it's not only that, like, he speaks, it's that like, it almost sounds like it's easy.   Like the sheep don't have to work to know who their master is like, or the shepherd is like, they know his voice. you know, like when the shepherd calls, the sheep can instantly know if it's his voice or not. you know, quick, funny story. I wasn't planning on telling you, but my wife is an identical twin. And when we first started dating her and her twin shared a phone, a cell phone.   So we're in college, we start dating. I would call my girlfriend, not knowing if she was going to answer the phone or if her sister was going to answer the phone. And I had to know, just based on the tone of their voice, which one it was could get in big trouble if I get this wrong.   Right. So, you know, I learned, I learned her voice. Right.   And the same is true, obviously, with like our kids, like they can tell the difference between your voice and some other parents voice. Right. Did you always get it right?   Did I always get it right? There was a few times where it was a little hard. Usually a lot of times, like there was context clues, you know, like just by the way they would talk to me, but sometimes like Rebecca would answer and just say like, “Hey, and you know.” it's like, that's all I got to work with is a “Hey, you know”?   And, you know, I wasn't quite sure for a moment. So, I would ask a question to get more talking going, and then I would figure out who this was. So, yeah.   Mark Dugger: (23:19 - 23:21) That's good. Sorry, I derailed you there.   Laura Dugger: (23:22 - 23:44) I'll bring us back because I think that's so profound, even how you said context clues. So, I'll bring it back. You were talking first, John 10:14.   “I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me”. And then also a few verses later in 27, where he says, “my sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me.”   Chris Allen: (23:47 - 25:06) Yeah, I think. And then I think also like Jesus modeled this throughout his whole life. Like we would, you know, I and the Father are one, He would often retreat for time with the Father.   He seemed very clear on what the Father was saying. I mean, I realized there's a divinity gap between looking at how Jesus operated and maybe how we are. But then He also says, “like, it's better for Me to leave because I'm going to send my Helper, the Holy Spirit.”   And I think we see in that language, an even more intimate relationship. Like Jesus is in, like God is in us, you know? So, I don't think like when I study scripture, I don't think God intended for it to be hard for us to hear Him.   Which is why, you know, I'm interested in this topic. And as a lot of people that I interact, do struggle with that, and I struggle with that in my own life. I don't want to just accept that, you know?   So that's kind of what motivates me in this topic. It gets me excited to talk about it.   Mark Dugger: (25:09 - 25:12) That's cool. You have something else you wanted to say?   Chris Allen: (25:13 - 31:40) Well, I was kind of going back to the retreat. So, I think, you know, one of the biggest hurdles when I was in with the kids, as well as I think with us, even as adults, is first just acknowledging that we don't notice everything. Like there's things happening around us that we just simply don't notice.   If you're like me, like I feel like I'm fairly observant. And I do notice a lot of things. And I typically kind of feel like I'm right about things, you know, or I feel like my take is kind of on point.   It can be hard to admit this, but the reality is like there's so much happening around us that we actually don't notice. So, when I was talking to the kids, this was like the first thing that I tried to establish. So, I had this opening slide that said, if you're reading this, put your finger on your nose.   And so, as I come up to talk, I mean, I'm just introducing myself for the first time. Hey, everyone, I'm so glad to be here. My name is Chris. Mr. Chris, you know, and I'm starting to talk to them, you know, leading into our time together. The whole time behind me is this slide. If you're reading this, put your finger on your nose. And so, as I'm talking, you know, certain kids started putting their finger on their nose, but as I went on for like five or 10 minutes, right.   And in the end, you know, maybe a third of them had their finger on their nose. And so, I was like, you know, the first thing I want to establish with us together is an idea that there's things happening around you that you do not notice. And to convince you that that is true.   I want you to look around and notice your friends who have their finger on their nose. And the reason is because of the slide behind me that you haven't noticed yet. Right.   And so, it was a really fun way just to help them go like, oh, interesting. I guess I don't notice everything. And then we kind of moved to this idea of taking on a posture of curiosity.   And so, I was like, I want you to imagine that we or I was like, does anybody know a name of a famous detective? You know, they're shouting out names and stuff. So, we landed on Sherlock Holmes.   OK, well, Sherlock Holmes was here in the room with us, and he was trying to solve a mystery. What do you think he would do? And, you know, hands start going up.   He'd look for clues. Like, yeah, that's right. He'd look around.   You know, he's trying to figure out clues to solve the mystery. Right. And so, cultivating this posture of curiosity of like, OK, if things are happening around me that I don't notice.   And I want to notice them, like, what would that look like? I've got to start getting curious about my life, about the things that are already in it. And why are they there?   And so that's really kind of at the root of this idea of cultivating wonder is looking at your life and the things that are already in it and wondering about them. I'll give you an example. Our oldest, Ryan, is going into middle school, a transition which there's been a little bit of energy about in our house.   But near the end of fifth grade, Ryan was a little bit unsure what school he wanted to go to. He wasn't sure if he wanted the school that they are in which goes K through 12. So, he had the option of staying there.   But he also had the option of potentially moving to a different school. And he had some friends that are going to move. And that was kind of a catalyst for a lot of the conversation.   So, for a lot of that time, you know, just to be transparent, there was a lot of worry and anxiety as we were trying to discern, like, which school should he go to? And, you know, you've got layers that you've got my take on, you've got Rachel's take on it, you've got Ryan's take on it, right? And all of course, his parents, like, you know, we don't want to just make a call and force him, you know. We really want him to be bought in.   And at the same time, we have a sense of what we think. And so for a while, we were just kind of doing what I call wandering. Wwe were just wandering around within this topic, like, you know, Rachel would feel anxious about certain things, I would feel certain things, you know, Ryan's feeling certain things. And we're just kind of ping ponging around, wandering around.   And then one day, it finally started to shift towards wonder for me. And it was just like, you know, I wonder what God is up to in Ryan's life. Like, I wonder what God has in mind for Ryan, as he's moving into middle school.   I wonder which environment might be best for him, you know, to shape him in this next season. And instead of like latching on to the pieces that we're maybe concerned about and obsessing about those or thinking about those, just moving towards wonder, even though it doesn't solve anything, it doesn't change anything, like the situation is still the same. But it begins to change how I hold that thing.   And before I know it, I am interacting with my Father God about this thing that I was just worried about. And so, it's like this transformation of taking the, because here's the thing, this thing is already happening in my life. I'm already spending energy on it.   Like, why not let it be the catalyst for how I'm going to interact with God? And so cultivating wonder, curiosity, why is this happening? What is God up to?   As I mentioned already, for me, it's kind of been the gateway for me to put on goggles and to begin to see more of why things might be happening. Or what God's up to and just hold them differently than I was previously.   Mark Dugger: (31:40 - 31:55) So, I love this topic and thinking about it. How can we then disciple our children to listen to God and know for themselves, like, and recognize when they're actually hearing from the Holy Spirit?   Chris Allen: (31:56 - 39:42) Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I don't think there's a perfect formula.   I think it's something we just cultivate. Some of that's going to depend on the individual. I think each child's going to be a little bit different, but I think this idea of starting to notice things is a key one and just helping them think about or acknowledge that they're not going to see everything.   Another little tool that I use with the students was those magic eye things. I don't know if you remember this from our childhood, but they had books and posters with these pictures of, like, when you look at it from a distance, it's just like a lot of little random things or like a confusing drawing at most. But if you look at it a certain way, right, you start to see this picture within the picture.   Right. And so, we used that. It was awesome.   We had like a contest to see who could see it first and they got prizes and stuff. But you know, it's basically like we have to fix our eyes. Right.   We have to learn how to see the unseen, essentially, in the same way. I mean, those posters are actually a little tricky for a lot of people. Like if you don't see it, you don't see it.   Like, you know, you have to learn a certain like once you get the hang of it and you position yourself in relationship to it just right. Right. You can start to see like the horse or whatever jump off the page.   But, you know, learning to see what is unseen is not easy. But here's the really, really cool part that I think is really important for kids. It's like God made them for this.   And, you know, not just kids like us to like God made us for this. Your mind is already doing the things that is needed for this. And so, at the retreat to help them like understand what I mean by this, I basically wanted to show them all the things that they already know that they never learned.   And you may not know what I mean by that, but basically we played this game where I had all these logos from different famous brands. But I intentionally chose brands that were like adult brands, like insurance, Allstate, you know, State Farm. And so, we had their slogans or their logos in some cases, and they had to guess what it was.   They knew them all. And it's like, you know, I would make jokes, of course, in between they get off. They got Allstate.   And I'm like, I would go up to the kids who guessed it right. I'd be like, so tell me, do you have auto insurance with Allstate? Or is it home insurance?   What is what's your coverage amount? You know, what is your policy like? Just to drive home the point, it's like, you know, they're not a customer.   There's no reason they should know who Allstate is. But they are watching TV, they're driving around, they're doing different things in life. And of course, they have absorbed, their mind has learned what Allstate is without them even trying, right.   And so, your mind is doing a lot of this work already. It's already noticing everything around you. It's already learning and processing all this information.   Dallas Willard talks about kind of the role of the mind. A lot of times, we think of the mind as a generator of thoughts. And this is a pretty big position or adjustment that I think is important.   But instead of viewing the mind as a generator of thoughts, viewing it more as a processor of thoughts. Because reality is like, you didn't make up Allstate, you didn't make up the brand, the kid didn't make up the brand. You just processed it, you know, and that's what your mind is doing with most information.   And so when we start to view the mind as a processor, you now have a category for okay, there's all these other things that are basically submitting things to our minds. And you know, that's all the things we've been talking about, right? That's billboards, that's TV, that's us, like we're submitting thoughts to our kids' minds.   But you know, everything they read, everything they look, everything around them is constantly submitting thoughts to their minds. And their mind is just processing away. But it does it all automatically, like that's what the mind was made for.   So, for me, the kind of good news in all this, even though I think some of these thoughts can sound kind of foreign, or maybe hard to go figure out, it really is how we were designed. Like it's, you know, God designed our minds to interact with him. He designed our minds to be able to recognize thoughts that are coming from him.   So, when we shift the mind to a processor, really, that point is just about learning to notice those thoughts, okay, as they come in, right? And as you start to notice them, you can notice, you know, kind of the nature of them or the characteristic of them. And God, the thoughts that God might be presenting to your mind versus the thoughts that other sources might be presenting to your mind, over time starts to become clearer and clearer and clearer.   So maybe just like a practical example would be that, like, sometimes when we're processing things with our kids, if they're feeling a certain way, I might ask them, like, hey, what are you thinking about this? Or what's the most, like, what's the last thought you had about this? And it's like, oh, I'm worried, you know, I was thinking about, you know, my buddy, how he won't like this thing, you know. And it's like, oh, okay, that's why you don't want to go, you know, to that place, because your buddy doesn't like it. You know, it's like, but oftentimes, I will go to the, I'll go to thoughts, and ask them about their thoughts, what's the most recent thought to understand what emotions might be happening now. But I think even just talking about thoughts as a thing, right?   Like, what thought did you have, is really helpful to start, because a lot of times, I think the default is we kind of like assume we are our thoughts, we are one with our thoughts. And this can get really dangerous. I think, especially for young men, but really for all of us, because we have a lot of thoughts that are not honoring to God or to each other, right?   And so, if those are me, then that says a lot about who I am, right? So separating ourselves from our thoughts, positioning the mind as the processor of thoughts, not only gives room for the idea that God is presenting thoughts to our minds, but it also gives room for the idea that the enemy or the world or these other things are presenting thoughts to our minds. So just because we might have that thought doesn't mean it's us, which is a big thing as well.   Laura Dugger: (39:43 - 40:52) I love that because, okay, so going back to that first point, so God speaks to His children, and I think it's helpful for me just to have that articulated. That has been my experience, that one of the ways God speaks to me is through my thoughts, and so sharing that with our children as well. And something, when I'm verbally processing then later, if I'm wondering and I'm questioning, where did this thought come from?   Where did this originate? Mark's question to me will always be, whose voice is that? And I think it's another way of what you're saying, because it could be culture, it could be God, it could be the enemy's voice, and that it is through our thoughts.   But then if we are now, you've recommended also thinking about what our thoughts are. So, thinking about our thinking and pursuing that listening stance. So that kind of leads into the next point where you share that you say, if you want to hear Him, cultivate wonder.   So, can you just elaborate on that?   Chris Allen: (40:55 - 45:09) Yes. So well, let me also mention, so I mentioned Dallas Willard, he has like a quote that I really love around this. And I'll just go ahead and say it for those that might be thinking it, like, did you really present all this to kids?   Yes, I did. I wrestled so much going into this with like, this is too much, like it's too deep, it's too much content. I almost changed a lot of the talk, like literally like five minutes before it.   But I kind of landed on this, you know what, and there was a lot of adults in the room, it wasn't aimed at them, but it was just like, my job is to just throw it out there. And like, if one kid just grabs onto something, you know, so yes, I did. I did give this to kids, but I realized it's a lot.   So, but Willard says, he says, generally, it is much more important to cultivate the quiet inward space of a constant listening than to always be approaching God for specific direction. And he goes on to say, in the still small voice of God, we are given a message that bears the stamp of his personality quite clearly. And in a way, we will learn to recognize it.   How the message comes, this is kind of the biggest part right here: how the message comes is diminished almost to the vanishing point, taking the form of thoughts that are our thoughts, though these thoughts are not from us. And so, when I first read this, it was like, oh my gosh, like, I think I've experienced that. But he is putting words to something I, you know, maybe hadn't fully acknowledged that like, this, this is God speaking to me, you know. So, I think a lot of times we, we write off our thoughts as just like, oh, it's just my lunch, you know, or whatever. But I, I really believe, and Willard, you know, believes that one of the primary ways that God speaks to his people, and when we say children, I don't mean children in this case, not like the age of someone, but anyone, um, any person, like, this is a, at least a huge part of how God speaks to them is, is through their thought life.   And so, for me, like, as I, as I've started to walk in this, and, um, take, pay more attention to my thoughts, and then actually, like, hold them like, okay, well, what if this was God speaking? You know, it's, it's changed my personal interaction with God, um, for sure. So, I think for most people, if you're not already practicing this, it can feel inaccessible.   It can feel hard. It's like, oh my gosh, like, are you telling me that I have, like, I have to change everything. Like, I have to start recognizing all my, like, if you're not already doing that, um, and I think that's where cultivate wonder comes in. Is moving towards just a posture of curiosity, moving towards a posture of wonder, of, um, when you start to notice a thought, like, just hold it out there.   It's like, oh, that's interesting. I just had that thought. Hmm.   And you just think about it. You just wonder about it, right? You don't really have to do anything.   Like in the beginning of this, you don't have to do anything with it. Like, just look at it, hold it, name it, and just wonder about it. Like, I think that is the first step.   And so, I think there's little ways we can help our kids with that, right? Just as we're helping them process things, as we're talking through things, um, we can call out what we think we hear them say, you know, and just say, Hey, it sounds like you had this thought. Is that right?   You know? Um, and just the way we, you know, they can pick things up quickly. So, the way that we teach them to process what they're thinking about, um, is a huge gift to them.   If we can help them name their thoughts and hold them out.   Laura Dugger: (45:09 - 47:07) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?   Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials, anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.   Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.    Well, and just want to speak to some of this as well. So, when you were sharing about children, meaning more than actual age children, I was thinking back.   Our oldest daughter, Selah was baptized a couple of years ago and a scripture that was really meaningful to her in that process as she was writing out her testimony and just pondering the work that God had done in her life. She really was impacted by a verse I'd love to read because that's another sure way that God does speak to us is through the word of God. So, the Bible, that's always a way that we can hear from Him.   But this verse is John 8:47, and it says, “Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”   Chris Allen: (47:07 - 50:09) Well,  I think the emphasis that I would point out on that is that it's not that God is not speaking.   It's the reason you don't hear. So, I believe God's pursuing people even that aren't following Him. And even in our case, I think God pursues us even in our disobedience.   But what shifts is our ability to hear. And so, it's like we're tuning in, and that invitation exists for, I think, for all people. It's the opportunity to just tune in more to what God is up to, what He's saying, just by looking at what He's already doing in your life, what's already happening.   Just look around, pay attention, start to notice, start to name it. And like I was saying, if this feels overwhelming, which I think it definitely can, the beautiful thing is we were made for this. Our mind was made to work this way.   It's how God designed it. And one of the final ways that I pushed this across the finish line with the kids was the final logo that I had was Nike. And of course, not only did every kid in the room know the answer to what the brand was, half of them were wearing it.   But if you look back in your life, and this is what I had them do. It's like there's some moment in your life where you were not aware of Nike. You probably were already wearing it, the toddler walking around in it or something. It's all around you.   It's everywhere. Everybody else is wearing it too. You've seen tons of ads and advertisements.   It's everywhere. Yet there was some moment where you didn't know what it was. If you saw the logo, you'd be like, I don't know what that is.   And then at some point you cross this threshold where it's like all of a sudden you learn like, oh, that's Nike. And so, if you could pinpoint that moment in a kid's life, it's like in that moment, you go from like, I don't know, to like, Nike. Well, Nike didn't all of a sudden exist in that moment.   It was no more present than it was before. It was always around you. It was always active.   It was always everywhere. The only thing that changed in that moment is you became aware of it. And that's how I like to think about like what God is up to in our lives.   He is active. He's all over it. He is in your every day and every situation that we're in.   And He is inviting us to participate with Him, to notice Him, to talk with Him about it and to interact with Him through those things. But we just have to become aware of Him. And for me, I think wonder is the thing that helps me shift in that direction, just cultivating wonder.   Mark Dugger: (50:11 - 50:31) That's awesome. So you talked about with your kids, asking them and follow up questions about their thoughts. But is there any other practical ways you think about bringing this to life with our kids to help them kind of shape some of this line of thinking?   Chris Allen: (50:34 - 52:38) Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, the other kind of analogy that I've used with my kids as well is where's Waldo? So, my spiritual director, Jeannie Hoover, who's amazing, who lives in Illinois as well, she actually was the one who used this analogy in our conversations first.   But you know, where's Waldo's fun? You get the book or the posters and you're looking for Waldo, right? But you have no chance of finding him.   First, you can't find Waldo unless one, you believe he exists. Two, you know what he looks like. And three, you look for him.   And so that's kind of the starting point. I think an easy starting point with kids, plus you can use the Waldo book and they love it. But they have to believe God exists.   They have to know what He looks like, and they got to start looking for Him. Obviously, we can play a very tangible role in helping them kind of learn what He looks like and helping them look for Him. I think one easy way is like, you know, some kind of daily routine, as maybe you're putting them to bed or debriefing the day.   Or you might ask a simple question like, you know, did you notice God anywhere today? Or was there anything that happened in your life today, you know, where you noticed God? Or you can also go, I think a lot of times we can find Him in the things that we're struggling with.   So, is there anything that happened today that hurt you or didn't sit well with you? But as you help them process that, right, you're kind of looking for where is God in the story? What is he up to?   And helping them connect those dots.   Mark Dugger: (52:40 - 52:41) Oh, go ahead.   Laura Dugger: (52:41 - 52:44) Oh, you go first. I wonder if we're on the same thought.   Mark Dugger: (52:44 - 54:00) I was thinking, I was recently, this is helpful for me personally, but I was recently frustrated about a day or something that happened recently. And I was just, you know, going through the iterations of why this thing caused me frustration. And, you know, it caused me to take out frustration on others that were around me and impacted others.   And then my friend was just casually kind of listening to me and just said, what do you think God's calling you to do in the midst of this? And it was just such a simple yet profound question that I hadn't even considered. Like I wasn't even thinking about God being active and involved in this frustration that was going on in my life because I was so consumed by it.   But yet when I take that moment, I think him asking that question to me, helped me step back out kind of that 10,000 foot view and just say, huh, what, where is God right now in this process? And what is he potentially trying to show me in the midst of this frustration? And I think that's something that our kids can really understand too.   They can really grasp onto that concept. So, I think that's been a helpful one for me.   Laura Dugger: (54:00 - 54:58) You're both stirring all these ideas because I also think something that Mark's started recently on a Sunday on Sabbath, he loves to go around the table with our kids. And the youngest is five, as you know, Chris, and he'll ask all of us, where did you see God at work in your life this week? And they are able from a young age to think back on their life.   And I think that God does manifest himself to them. But then whether this is a question then for children or adults or everyone, even a conversation that Mark and I have had with you and Rachel before, where when you're going back to something that's happened in the past, asking yourself of that situation, if I go back to that scene in my mind, where was Jesus within that? And that's a pretty profound experience, I would say as well.   Chris Allen: (54:59 - 56:56) Yeah. Well, I think another something that I would encourage people to think about is this is not something that we have to figure out. That's really God's role is to teach us how to do this.   I think throughout scripture, the posture of curiosity or wonder is encouraged. Just ask, just seek, just knock. And you will find it.   The door will be open to you. And so, I don't think God asks us to figure out how to hear His voice or figure out how He speaks. I think if we come with just a posture of curiosity, which honestly, even that alone takes a little bit of work on our side, right?   But if we just cultivate some curiosity about what he's up to, my experience has been that you will start to notice. If you just focus on noticing and being curious, you will start to notice Him. I think sometimes we focus on the outcome.   We think the intimacy, like if I could hear God well, if I had a conversational life with God, I would experience intimacy with Him, right? But I think the truer thing is that a lot of the intimacy is in the learning. It's in the process.   We just show up, we just cultivate curiosity. And as God teaches us, a lot of the intimacy comes out of the teaching. Like, oh my gosh, that was God.   I just saw Him in a way I hadn't before. And so I think hopefully it takes some of the pressure off and allows us just to start to look for Him.   Mark Dugger: (56:57 - 57:13) Yeah. This conversation, I think, has been so helpful just to begin the process of thinking about this. Is there anything else that you want to add or help this message stick or bring home deep within us?   Chris Allen: (57:16 - 58:07) I think I would just say, if you're someone who maybe is not sure that God is speaking, I would just challenge you to pretend that He is. Just try it. Just start looking around, start noticing, and just see what happens.   In my experience, God is fully capable of making Himself known to us. If we just take a step in his direction with curiosity or wonder, He will reveal himself to you. He'll start showing you things.   And it's not constant, right? But over time, your faith will grow that He is speaking, that He does speak, and it will start to transform how you interact with Him.   Laura Dugger: (58:10 - 58:31) I love it. And I'm going to kind of summarize. Okay, so God speaks to his kids.   We get to participate and cultivate wonder. And a practical thing was to pay attention to our thoughts. With all of this too, Chris, you've alluded to a project.   Do you want to share any more information about that?   Chris Allen: (58:31 - 59:54) Oh, man. Yeah. So yeah, I've been working on a book for about a year and a half now with my spiritual director, Jamie, who I mentioned, really for adults about wonder.   I think we activate and use wonder a lot as kids, especially when we were kids. I think kids are better, more naturally jumping into wonder. The pool of life for adults is away from wonder.   It's towards the other side of the brain. It's towards be productive, be on time, be on task, get it done. And the more we fill our lives up with things, which as you all, like in this season that we're in, life is very busy, wonder just so easily gets squeezed out.   And so the project I've been working on is really aimed at helping adults cultivate wonder in their life again, specifically around how they interact with God, which probably no surprise at this point in the conversation. But yeah, it's so exciting. I mean, we're down the road, things are starting to solidify, and we got a good bit of work left to do, but I'm really excited about what that will be.   Laura Dugger: (59:55 - 1:00:15) Well, then we look forward to a part two of this conversation when that's further along. We'd love to have you back, but you are already familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Chris, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Chris Allen: (1:00:16 - 1:00:57) Oh man, well, I think I might be a broken record on this one. So it's probably a summary statement here, but if wonder is our goggles into the kingdom, the question is how can we put them on more? And so, my encouragement is to leverage the things that are already happening in your life to help you cultivate wonder.   And obviously that's what the book is about. So hopefully maybe I can help some people do that more in specific ways once that's out, but that would be my Savvy Sauce.   Laura Dugger: (1:00:58 - 1:01:38) Love it. Well, I think Mark can share as well, but from the two of us, we just love you and Rachel, and Ryan, Ramsey and Harvey. And Mark and I are so grateful you have profoundly impacted us.   Just the friendship with you guys has been incredible. And also spiritually, we've learned so much from you and hopefully sharpened one another. And I appreciate the impact that the two of you have had on each other spiritually as well.   And I get to enjoy sweet fruit from your amazing and godly friendship. So, thank you for all you shared today. Thank you for your friendship.   And thank you for being our guest.   Chris Allen: (1:01:40 - 1:01:42) You're very welcome. Thanks for having me on.   Mark Dugger: (1:01:43 - 1:03:04) Yeah, I was just gonna say thanks. You know, friendship is pretty rare. And it's pretty remarkable just to think about all we've been through together.   But yet, Laura summarized it so well, but you've had such a profound impact on me, even in those years, you know, picking me up in high school ministry when we were doing those, those kinds of things together. And then we shared a mentor with Dave Pridemore, who's actually been a previous guest here on The Savvy Sauce. And just learning more about who we are in Christ.   And you've always been an encouragement to me. And that's just been such a blessing in my life. Just to know that there's always that constant friendship.   And no matter what goes on, no matter how, you know, being states apart, you know, sometimes we're not always talking all the time, but it's always nice to know that you, it's always the same. It's like we picked up right where we left off. And I think that's, that's deeper than just the friendship, but it's the bond that we have in Christ.   And that's, you know, you've challenged me in this way, just to think about wonder, this isn't something that comes to me naturally. And so I'm just very thankful for this conversation. And then just to be able to share some of the things that we've talked about privately, but be able to share with this audience today.   So thanks for doing that.   Chris Allen: (1:03:05 - 1:03:06) Absolutely.   Laura Dugger: (1:03:07 - 1:06:50) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

258. Pursuing Creative Endeavors While Mothering with Liz Bell Young   Matthew 13:52 "Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like the head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things that are new and fresh and things that are old and familiar."   **Transcription Below**   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you tell us about your journey to becoming the creator of Haven magazine, which was distributed by Anthropologie and also how you were selected to be a contributor to the Magnolia Journal? What have you learned about wisely overlapping mothering and pursuing dreams? How does writing and sharing stories help us to take good care of one another?   Liz Bell Young is a writer, experience designer and collaborator in the Midwest. Her work appears in Magnolia Journal on the shelves, Artifact Uprising and Darling on the sites, Procter & Gamble in the studios, and Woman Camp in the woods.   A grad of The School of the Art Institute of Chicago + University of Cincinnati, LBY takes a multidisciplinary approach to her work and home. Favorite pairings: words on index cards, words next to rolling film, words covering real paper inside real books. She also adores rocks, oyster shells, the smell of hay and gasoline, old Austrian boots, coffee in small cups. But above all: her life with Ryan and their children.   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank   Other Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Related to Hospitality, Mothering, and Pursuing Creative Endeavors: 1 Finding Your Purpose as a Mom with Courtney DeFeo 9 Self-Care in Motherhood with Karen Stubbs 13 Managing Family, Career, and Health with Leslie Neslage 15 The Supernatural Power Present While Gathering at the Table with Devi Titus 43 Joys and Challenges of Motherhood with Podcaster and Author, April Hoss 46 Encouragement and Inspiration for your Motherhood Journey with Anjuli Paschall 57 Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee 67 Thriving at Work, Home, and Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Business Owner, Crystal Paine 75 Responding to God's Stirring with Elizabeth Pehrson, Founder of The Exchange 168 Experiencing Joy, Connection, and Nourishment at the Table with Abby Turner 178 Fresh Take on Hospitality with Jaime Farrell 202 Simple Ways to Connect with Our Kids And Enjoy Breaks with Beth Rosenbleeth (Days with Grey) 223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website     Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:24) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here.    Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness.   Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.    Liz Bell Young is my kind guest for today. She is an artist and an extremely gifted writer, and I just love the title of her book, Let There Be Havens: An Invitation to Gentle Hospitality.   So, she's going to share stories and offer practical tips for fostering creativity. She's going to talk about attuning to the Holy Spirit in our lives so that we can take good care of one another. And she also offers out-of-the-box ideas for genuine hospitality that creates a haven to offer others.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Liz.   Liz Bell Young: (1:25 - 1:28) Thank you, Laura. It is really good to be here with you.   Laura Dugger: (1:29 - 1:48) Well, I would love to just begin here because early on in your book, there was a line that grabbed me when you wrote, “I was raised to show love for others through action, not just in theory.” So, will you start there and elaborate and share more about that?   Liz Bell Young: (1:49 - 3:56) Sure, sure. I have this little part in the book. It's titled; My Dad Gave It Away.   And so, I'll just tell that little story because I think it's pretty representative of how things ended up playing out. But I got home from school one day and my dollhouse was not at home anymore. It was gone.   And I just stood in front of it and, you know, I was so sad. Where's my dollhouse? One of my dad's co-workers had had a horrible house fire.   And so, during the day, my dad had picked a few things from the house that he thought would bless this family, who also had a little girl. And I, as soon as I understood what had happened, you know, I felt I was very okay with that. I was, I grieved my dollhouse, but I thought, you know, when you, when you have something to give to someone who has just lost, you know, they lost really everything that it is, it's so important to do.   And so, my, my dad and my mom were very, very love and action people. You know, probably even more than we talked about it. It was just a lot of, you know, somebody has low air in their tires and my dad's filling it up.   Somebody needs counsel and they take the time to give it. My mom had a friend who was blind. And so, we would spend time like organizing her, her clothing closets and her dishes just so that she could get through.   She was an attorney, but just help her like get through her day a little bit more easy. So, they were very aware of people's needs. And we learned that sometimes like that was at cost to us, you know, giving away something that we actually still could have used or taking the time to go and, you know, paint someone's house when really we wished that we could have gone to the amusement park, you know, things like that.   That, that was their love and action, you know it really affected all of us, I think in a big way. I have three sisters.   Laura Dugger: (3:56 - 4:40) So, I love that because it's the same setup for our family. We have four daughters. And so that was your book.   But I think that example that you gave just reminds me of scripture. I was reminded of recently from 1 John 3:18, that just says, “Dear children, let us not love with words or speech, but with actions and in truth.” So, it's apparent that you were raised in really good soil with parents who lived and shared this way of life, and they shared the good news of Jesus with you.   But when and how did you make your faith your own and choose to personally follow Christ?   Liz Bell Young: (4:41 - 6:02) Oh, so if I had to pinpoint a time, I would say it was like a summer camp. I think I was 11 or 12. You know, that often happens, I think, like when you're removed from your environment.   I was just at night standing next to a lake with a counselor and I just, I'd already, I already knew God. I had always sort of felt His voice and presence and whispers. And I also felt familiar with, you know, the enemy's voice.   And I was very aware, you know, I think when you're a really sensitive child sometimes, which I was, you can kind of feel the weight of the spiritual realm. And so, you know, it was a very gradual, I think, thing turning fully to the Lord. But that I do remember that moment at camp where I just was like, I want this always, I want the fullness of this.   And I want to just completely, I just felt so completely in love with Jesus. And I was just like, very, like, lean forward, eager, you know, for that. So, but of course, you know, it's, it's a, it's a process.   There was, there were highs and valleys and all over the place along the way, but that's kind of where it took off.   Laura Dugger: (6:03 - 6:34) That is really helpful. Even thinking of sensitive children, maybe that resonates with some of us as parents, you've kind of put language around what we may be experiencing. But then just going back further into your story, you're a graduate of the School of the Art Institute of Chicago.   And I'd love to hear some more about the lessons you learned there. So, what are just a couple of stories that stand out from that season of life that ended up shaping you?   Liz Bell Young: (6:35 - 8:51) Oh, I, it was a really formative time. I actually just, I did my undergrad in social work. And so this was actually graduate school, because I'd always wanted to be a writer or an artist of some sort.   And so finally, after, you know, I took some time off in between undergrad and graduate school, got back and went to the Art Institute. And one of the, the huge moments for me, it's funny for other people, it would have been like just a nothing moment. But we were, I was in a drawing class, we were doing large format charcoal.   And I'm working on a portrait, and I was working like really tediously on the nose. And my professor came up behind me and said, it's a really pretty nose. Is that what you see?   And I looked at it, and I realized I'm drawing from what I've been told a nose should look like from what I've seen from it's, she's like, I think as a writer, because, you know, I was just taking art classes, but primarily there's writers, she's like, I think as a writer, you understand that, like, you don't want to fall into cliche, but what you're doing here is, is a cliche. And so, what you haven't done is you haven't put any of the reality in it, there were no twists and turns, no shadow, barely any. And it looked pretty and commercial.   But it was not, I had not learned like the transparency of an artist yet. I'm starting to learn it with writing, but I had not learned it with a visual. And I often think about that, because, you know, as a creative, or even as a as a mother, as you know, whatever you do, I think it's very easy to just fall into the routine of what you think is the most acceptable, or what you think it's supposed to be like, or look like.   And getting, getting to that, like honest transparency, whether as a creative, or, you know, whatever you're doing, I think is so freeing, but it really took someone to point out where I was like, where I was not free.   Laura Dugger: (8:52 - 9:21) Wow, that's so helpful. Art just unlocks all kinds of things within us. So that's a really helpful example.   And this next question, I guess, kind of comes from two angles. So first, was creativity encouraged in the home you grew up in? And then also now, as a mother, how have you cultivated an atmosphere in your home, where all of the family members are free to create?   Liz Bell Young: (9:24 - 11:22) Yes, we, and I don't want to paint an idyllic childhood, because we certainly had hard points in all of this. But my mom was an art teacher, and my dad is a very, like, inventive engineer type person. So, and yet, they're very organized and orderly people.   So it was sort of this funny contrast of like, free spirit mixed with like, responsibility, you know. And so, we were allowed to sit on the counter and make up a cake recipe while my mom was making dinner, big art pieces on the driveway, we could make spontaneous choices to put up a fort under the kitchen table. So, there was a lot of like, creative flexibility in the house.   And then at the end of the day, we had to clean up like it wasn't, it wasn't like a without regulation or without responsibility to take care of the things that you own. And so I think that's what I've tried to, you know, give to our children is just like, this spirit of invent things, try things, mix things together. We did homeschool for a little bit, turns out I wasn't a great homeschool teacher.   It was very difficult for me. I thought it would be fun, but I just wanted to, you know, do art and play all day. So, I kind of missed the other stuff.   But you know, but during that time, like, you know, getting to make maps on the driveway and put rocks and sticks in places, like all of that was like, really taken from my childhood and like, you know, what I wanted to give to give our kids and still recognize like those, those boundaries of like, you know, then when we're working or, you know, I'm working in the house, like I need you to be quiet. So again, and like, not like the free for all, but still a lot of free.   Laura Dugger: (11:23 - 12:06) Well, and it makes me think of one of your quotes on page 104. I just thought this was really helpful because everybody were made in the creator's image. So, there is some creativity in each of us, but you said in the design process, it does wonders to make a physical mood board.   I realized maybe I was struggling because I had only made word lists and digital mock-ups. What I actually needed was to make the process physical. So then when I read that, my question for you, Liz, is how can we actually make that creative process physical and help our children to do the same?   Liz Bell Young: (12:08 - 14:27) Yeah. Well, I, I, I really do love physicality. I think I, I got to the point where I was working so much that I just kind of got stuck on this screen a little bit too often.   So the, what I was talking about in the book is when we were did like designing and building a house that we're now in. And I was really, you know, it was just so much it was, yeah, it was pretty bound to screens and spreadsheets and lists, like trying to like get it all organized. And I just felt like I couldn't it wasn't cohesive.   I couldn't feel it. I had to experience it. And so that's just when I, you know, began to make it physical.   And I think it's important, like you know, a lot of just, if you just think about the design world or interior design, a lot of people will do this. It's like, you know, you put your piece of tile next to the piece of carpet next to the, which I think is wonderful. But then what I recognize is if it's, if it stops there, it's, that's actually not representative of what it's going to be like.   And so, what we need to have is like the parts of our lives that that is getting added to. And so, putting in like, I mean, I just started adding in the stuff that's like always around our house. Lots of paper, of course, because I just love paper, kids homework, you know, little clay pots, the things that we that we bring to it.   So, it didn't feel like a sterile environment. So that, that was that whole like physicality and live into something. And it was literally just out, you know, on a table.   Unfortunately, it was our kitchen table. And I kept it out for way too long. So, we had to eat around it.   But yeah, I think that that's really helpful, especially for children, too. I don't, this isn't quite the parallel, but I was thinking like, you know, a lot like when you have teenagers, like I have a son who plays basketball, we, we have the best conversations when we're playing basketball together. And so just like being physical, like while we're in conversation versus just this, like, I'm trying to talk to you about this, you know, that's been really helpful for us parenting teens.   Laura Dugger: (14:28 - 16:26) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.   Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.   Midwest Food Bank supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year. And thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need.   The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit midwestfoodbank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.    Even back to just a small thing that also came into mind. I loved how you said physically you would bring nature into your home for designing.   And if you didn't have access to a flower, you would grab something green in the backyard. And it just had never occurred to me that I could do that and just grab some leaves or a branch. And you even have pictures of that beautiful example in your book.   Liz Bell Young: (16:27 - 16:39) Oh, yes. I love cutting branches off trees and bringing them inside, mostly because I forget to plant flowers. And so, like, I don't, you know, I could buy them, but I love branches inside.   Laura Dugger: (16:40 - 17:03) Such a creative idea. But you've gone on to have some pretty remarkable experiences in your career. So, will you tell us about your journey to becoming the creator of Haven Magazine, which was distributed by Anthropologie, and then also how you were selected to be a contributor to the Magnolia Journal?   Liz Bell Young: (17:05 - 20:59) Oh, sure. At some point, either I read it or somebody taught me this, I can't remember, about, like, making something that you want to make before you're asked to make it. And so, as a young writer, you know, I didn't have a portfolio.   I didn't have anything impressive. I'm trying to just, like, get into something with a pub, just something published, you know, that's not just, you know, me stapling a book together. And it was, you know, it was very difficult.   I mean, trying to get into travel or food writing, you know, anything, and it's just, like, rejection, rejection. And so, I just decided then, well, I have to make it. I have to figure out a way to create it myself.   And I had talented friends who were also trying to, you know, get published or get their photography out or art, whatever it was. And so, just getting that group of people together with this vision for what I wanted Haven Magazine to be, and then just doing the work ahead of time. Nobody asked for it.   Nobody wanted it. And found somebody who believed in the vision for it, who would, like, donate paper at cost. You know, so, like, we found some things to make it, like, a lighter financial lift, for sure.   And that was the beginning. So, that, and then I forget. My husband uses a word for this that I, it's not like, I don't know, grit or gumption.   I, like, I love challenge. I love trying to get something that feels nearly impossible, and any side door, just trying, trying, trying. And so, that's how, like, getting into anthropology did take a long time.   I can't even think about, maybe two years, a year and a half. And when I finally got the first one that I made through the door, and I had somebody looking at it who, you know, had clout, had the ability to make decisions, their feedback to me was, you're on to something really beautiful here, but I think that you're actually not following, like, I think you're trying, it was, again, like, the nose in art school. I was making something that I thought, okay, this is what people want right now, except it was a little bit more about, kind of, wanderlust, and travel, and that sort of thing.   And the woman on the phone was like, I think your heart is actually really about home. And so, are you afraid to take it there? And she said, you need to also just get better.   Like, I needed to, as a publication, like, I had to tighten things that, like, it wasn't, it wasn't on par with something that they would sell. And so, I did those two things. I was like, okay, well, then we have to do it again.   This one was at higher cost, you know, didn't get the donated paper this time. And my husband and I were just like, let's just do it. It feels like it's a good direction.   And so, the second one is the one that Anthropology distributed. And I'm very thankful that they pushed me as hard as they did, because a lot of times, you're just experimenting and trying something, and you have to go through these refining processes. You have to be humble enough to be like, okay, I recognize, you're right, that's not good enough for your shelf.   And it wasn't even like she challenged me, it wasn't where it was like trying to go, you know, or she didn't say this, but maybe it's that probably wasn't going in the direction that my heart and where God was pushing me wanted it to go. So, being willing to, you know, change direction a little bit with it and, and work hard to get after it. So, that was that part.   Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (21:00 - 21:24) Yes. And before you share about Magnolia Journal, just to comment on that, I think as believers, that probably deeply resonates with all of us that we all are so eagerly anticipating coming home, like with a capital H to having, and so even displaying that in your magazine. I love that she pushed you as well, but then yes, continue with the rest of the journey.   Liz Bell Young: (21:26 - 23:49) Okay. So, then I worked at a church for about 11 years, and that was a huge process of just getting, just getting more, just getting better as a writer. You know, I had done a school, but I needed practice and, and worked with a lot of designers.   So, I was getting this kind of multidisciplinary background built up. So, helping with set design, helping with video, so kind of, you know, the fullness of storytelling. But of course, primarily, I still, writing was my number one love.   And then I, after 11 years working for this church, I just, I was finished. I knew I was finished and I had been freelancing a lot on the side. So, I've always loved to be kind of in different places, not just all, you know, kind of in one spot.   And just decided to go for it and just go full freelance. And I was really nervous, very, very nervous because I, I loved, I really amazing creatives that I was working at, really great spiritual leaders. And so, to walk away from that and just think like, am I just going to be by myself?   Like trying to, you know, meld into other teams, whoever, whoever my clients are. So, it was like, I was nervous, but I also felt like it was the right time to do it. And then very soon after that, an editor from Magnolia reached out.   They just happened to be looking for someone to write a story about camping. And I had been a big part of creating a camping experience for the church I was working for. And like, because I had been in anthropology where some of the people from Magnolia now worked.   So, there, you know, again, it was just like relationship stuff that put my work in front of a person who didn't know me. And then, you know, they had a topic that they thought, well, who do we have who knows about, you know, writing about the outdoors and camping? Oh, I heard that there's this woman in Ohio, right?   So, that's, they, and then they just asked me to write a story. And I wrote that one and then just kept writing. So, it's been years now.   Laura Dugger: (23:50 - 25:00) I love that. So, fun to hear the backstory. But in the midst of building your career, you and your husband, Ryan, also have raised three children.   And again, I just want to quote you. So, on page 56, you write, “I knew I could not be a singularly focused person. I have no desire to be a solitary novelist. I want to be right in the middle of all my people, heart full and available, hands designing books, but also packing lunches. So, on some days I worked and some mornings I wrote. Then on other days, Ryan and I would drive our kids to a farm and pick blueberries and eat cider doughnuts.”   And I just love that. It was so relatable, especially to fellow moms who maybe are also squeezing in their own side career or creative endeavor while also raising children. And so, my question from your story is this, what have you learned about wisely overlapping, mothering, and pursuing dreams?   Liz Bell Young: (25:02 - 28:40) I don't, well, oh my goodness. This, it was true trial and error, and I still am making errors. But I think that, you know, it's hard.   It's definitely hard because there's a lot of just internal struggle in that, right? Like, I have this artist passion and heart. And so, I want to be, to, you know, work in that space.   And I don't want my kids to feel like I'm choosing that over them. And I know that it's also very good for them to be a part of that, to see it come to fruition. I think I learned a little bit by taking it too far, maybe a lot bit by taking it too far.   And I don't know how to necessarily avoid that. I think, I didn't know what too far was for me. I was getting sort of more and more sleep deprived without quite recognizing that I was starting to, like, sacrifice my health.   I was starting to, you know, get kind of that dizzy vertigo stuff that can happen with stress, but you don't know it's stress. Or I didn't. I just thought, okay, I'm tired.   I need a break. But it was hard. It was hard to stop.   I just wanted to fit everything in. So, I think I took it too far and then I recognized, okay, this is what too far feels like. And so, now, I have to be way better to protect my health, my, our marriage, just to make, you know, just, like, we wanted time for that.   I was, like, you know, books aren't more important than Ryan. And so, I used to do things, like, whenever the client wanted a meeting, I would just take it. Now, what I've learned is, like, I will not overpack things.   I will make sure that it works for our schedule. And just putting, that was a big one for me. Because I'd be, like, super sweaty trying to take a Zoom call while I'm at a park with three, you know, like, it doesn't work.   Or it didn't work for me. And so, I had to learn, like, don't, like, I would set myself up for failure a little bit. And so, just reining that in and kind of having better boundaries about that.   Still getting the sleep I needed. But I create best in the morning. And so, saying, like, okay, for this season, I will get up really early in the because I want this a lot.   And then I want to be able to have breakfast with my kids. And so, I just, you know, made that adjustment. So, yeah.   I guess that's the trial and error piece. But I do think if you, like, I also have friends who have not, who have put it all aside. And so, then that's very hard.   I think sometimes, especially when their kids are all in school or, you know, like, they're empty nesters or whatever. And then, like, you haven't had, you haven't had the chance to be, like, practicing in that and exploring that. And so, then there's this sort of loss and grief felt.   So, I think it's good even if it's just, like, dabbling in it. If that's a part of who you are, and creativity, or it doesn't just have to be creativity, of course. Whatever it is, if you can at least maybe just dabble, I think it's really good.   Laura Dugger: (28:41 - 29:05) I think that's helpful. That's a message of freedom that gives us permission. And that it's not selfish to do that.   It can actually be really wise stewardship. I'm curious, too, what have your children said? Have they given any feedback or appreciation even of seeing you pursue your dreams and be all in with the family?   Liz Bell Young: (29:06 - 29:55) Oh, that's a good question. I didn't used to really bring them into what I was doing and why I was doing it. I don't know why I didn't earlier.   I have since, like, now they're also, like, older and can comprehend more of it now. I've since kind of just brought them more into, this is what I'm doing, and this is why I care about writing this story. This is why this book matters to me, or why I'm helping someone else with their project.   And that has been better. I would include them, like, sometimes they would help me make stuff, or sell stuff, or deliver things. So, they were a part of that piece of it, but not, like, the sort of the heart and mind piece of it.   Laura Dugger: (29:56 - 30:03) That's helpful. So, you brought them in where possible. I wonder if any of them will, even in some ways, follow in your footsteps.   Liz Bell Young: (30:05 - 30:29) Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. I don't know.   I think it's, well, it's just fun to watch them. I know you, you know, with your girls, you probably feel the same way. And trying not to, like, over shape them, but just, like, create the space for them to try the things that they, you know, that they feel the direction that it's toward.   Laura Dugger: (30:29 - 32:27) Yes. When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast?   Did a friend share it with you? Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world.   So, we need your help. Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us.   Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you. Well, I just want to draw one other point, too, that you talk about in your book.   When you talk about a woman with a pen, and that deeply resonated with me. And I see the power of a person with a pen because the written word is clearly such a gift, obviously, with God preserving the Bible for us. But in the Bible, the person with a pen can be described as a scribe.   And it makes me think of this scripture from Matthew 13:52, where Jesus says, “Therefore, every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like the head of the household who brings out of his treasure things that are new and fresh and things that are old and familiar.” So, that's where my mind goes when I read your beautiful words, Liz. But I want to hear your unique take on this.   So, how does writing and sharing stories help us to even take good care of one another?   Liz Bell Young: (32:29 - 35:10) I love that scripture that you just read, too. I think that when you decide to write that way, because I even talk about it in my journey as a writer, I wasn't always doing that. I could feel, I sort of had this melancholic spirit at times, especially in my 20s.   And I felt like I was actually pushing into places that I didn't want to be. And so, I thought, why am I bringing a reader there? Or writing in a way that I think stories can also be so sort of self-focused or insulated into that they're actually not offering generous space for the reader.   So, I think about that a lot. I think about how stories can take care of people. I mean, they're just like little portals or doorways into connection, whether it's because somebody relates to a thing that happened.   Like sometimes I think it can be that specific, but sometimes it's just, that's exactly how I felt. And I didn't know how to articulate it. I have this story that felt so big to me, but really small.   I didn't even know if I should put it in the book, but it was just about breaking a carton of eggs when I was babysitting and the shame that the parents walked in and saw the eggs all over the floor. And it was just horrible for me. Really small thing that happened that could seem really trivial to one person.   But then what it really was just about was shame and then grace for yourself and believing that you, you know, what, believing in your worth. And so that's where the story ends. It's real short.   It's like a page. Well, all my stories are short, I think. But I shared that story for some reason has been the one that most people have come back and said, I needed that story.   They didn't break a carton of eggs, but they knew that, that sense, that depth of shame. And so that's where I think stories can take care of people and then taking it to a place of hope and forgiveness and leaving enough white space, even metaphorically, for someone to enter into that story is something that I think about for taking care of someone.   Laura Dugger: (35:11 - 36:02) That's so good. And it makes me think at our church on Wednesday nights, I'm in the room with second through fifth grade girls and our theme verse two verses from Psalm 78 verses four and seven, just talking about sharing stories with the next generation and ultimately about God's power and his righteous deeds. But I think that is such a way to take care of the next generation.   Stories are powerful. We see that in Jesus. And I was so blessed by all of your stories.   So again, your book is entitled, Let There Be Havens: An Invitation to Gentle Hospitality. So, let's kind of shift gears. And will you explain and define what a haven is and just hear a little bit more about hospitality and creating havens?   Liz Bell Young: (36:03 - 38:13) Oh, sure. It kind of took me a minute to figure this out because I had a sense of what I wanted and thought that a haven and taking care of people was. And the way I describe it in the book is that it's people who shelter us, places that hold us and experiences that lift us up.   So, when I think about hospitality and taking care of people and just being like a little cove for someone, maybe it's so temporary because it's just, you know, passing on the street and it's something that you can do, or maybe it's something more permanent, you know, like the relationship you have with your children. And I think of it as like gentle and grounding. So, it's not over the top or forced or rigid, or it's not putting myself in the spotlight.   I think a lot of times hospitality and the pressures that come with it are because we've been sort of accumulating this message that it's a performance. And so, I think that gentle hospitality or havens is when you're just creating spaces for people, whether it's physical or emotional, and they feel easy in that space. They feel safe.   They feel like the grounding part is just, you know, it's a step outside the wild waters or the chaos of other things that are happening. It gives a chance to catch your breath, feel cheered for, loved by someone. And so that's what I see a haven as.   And the picture that I have in my mind, which I took a picture out in California that I put in the book, and it's just this rocky coast, but it just has that swoop of a cove, and the waters are quieter there. And I mean, you know, 10 feet away, it's not quiet, but just right there, there's a pause. It's a safe, easy place.   And so that's what I think of for haven.   Laura Dugger: (38:15 - 38:21) And what are a few practical ways that you've created havens in your own life?   Liz Bell Young: (38:26 - 40:53) I've always, well, I did want to open a little hotel when I was little. So, I always loved thinking about like overnight spaces for people. So, we really, that's, that is a very, that's sort of the obvious, I think, kind of in my mind of like, what is like creating a literal space?   We've had to do it on couches and in a van, like we haven't always had a guest room. Right now we do. But just like being resourceful and trying to think of like, what's a way to make someone feel like really taken care of in this space?   Like bring a lamp and a coffee maker, even if it's on a couch, give them a stack of books that you think that they would love and that sort of thing. So that's, that would be a haven in my mind. I think, and I learned this in social work actually, but where you like when you're with someone, okay, this is a little bit more of sort of being an emotional, but physical presence haven is like, I try not to top someone else's emotions.   So, like if they're really upset or they're grieving, instead of just like meeting them or even like going above it, like just to be more like just with them and hang out like a little bit under that. Like, again, it's not, it's not about you. It's about the company, you know, that you keep with someone.   So just being next to someone, holding onto their arm when they're grieving. I, and I've had great examples of this, but like you can tell someone awkward or alone and you just go and you just go next to them. You don't draw attention to it.   You just become present. Holding the doors for people. This is a big thing for my parents.   Like, oh, we always must hold doors for people. And the part that I, that then someone, another mentor taught me was just to like delight in people's presence. So, when somebody does come in, whether you know them or not, whether it's a child or your husband, but you've already seen him 10 minutes ago, but like still like beaming on, on them because you love that they're there and that they're with you and that they're here, you know, on earth.   And so, I think, you know, beaming is a big one for me, for taking care and showing hospitality. Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (40:54 - 41:08) That's so good. I love that word. And what are some other tips for ways that all of us can take care of the people in our lives and help them to feel known and cherished and treasured?   Liz Bell Young: (41:08 - 42:51) Oh, well, I'm sure if I was in your Sunday school class, if I was a second through fifth grade, I would feel exactly this because I think like, um, again, like you're just giving, you're giving those girls like your heart and attention for that 45 minutes or hour. And you know, you're getting, um, you're getting like eye to eye with them. And like you said, sharing stories and just like being concerned with them as children, as people.   And so that I think it's, I don't want to like make it more than it is. I think, I think that's been part of the problem with like the sort of the pressure of like, how can I be like the best caretaker or like the, like a really great hostess. And I think like the very first thing is just the position of your heart and just connecting to someone and they're telling a story and you listen to it instead of just trying to trump their story with your own, you know, or, um, giving someone something that, you know, that they would love, you know, that, that simple.   Um, and so it's just, I guess that's just paying attention, Laura, right? Like just paying attention to people and what would even just give them a moment of reprieve or a moment of joy, a moment of inclusion and trying to like follow, um, I mean, the Holy spirit will nudge the heck out of you, you know, so you can like listening to the Holy spirit and then like listening to people. And I think that that, um, it really brings you into that space of, of genuine and gentle hospitality.   Laura Dugger: (42:52 - 44:11) Well, in genuine and gentle, those are some great words to describe even how I experience you as a writer. And I'll just share one more of my favorite practical tips that you listed for ways to take care of people, I guess, because I've been a recipient of this and it instantly made me think of my own dear mom, who I adore. And she has just rocked mothering since the baby phase.   And even as we're adults now, I don't know how she does it, but she just loves so well and every season. And so, I thought of her when you said on page 28, a way to show how to take care of others. You write help a friend or sibling with a couple things on their to-do list.   Jump starts are huge gifts. And I just thought, wow, practically like thinking of being a young mother and having my mom come along and give a jump start. Those times, you know, still impact us today.   And what a great example. So, your book is full of ideas like this. And so, if anybody wants to pick up their own copy or continue learning ways that they can also create havens, where would you direct all of us to go after this conversation, Liz?   Liz Bell Young: (44:11 - 44:58) Oh, well, thanks for asking. I think the book is the best place, partly because I'm pretty quiet on social media. And I just can't find my rhythm there.   But maybe just because I love books so much, but I really try to give everything that I could think of to these specific pages. And so, I mean, you can buy it on Amazon, Target, Barnes & Noble, you know, all the book places. Magnolia will be selling it, I think, or it might be for sale there right now.   And yeah, that's it. And I have a website, lizbellyoung.com. So, if you want to visit me there too.   Laura Dugger: (44:58 - 45:23) Wonderful. Yes, we can add that link in the show notes. But that is wonderful.   And congrats. That's so exciting being sold all those places. You may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight.   And so, as my final question for you today, Liz, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Liz Bell Young: (45:26 - 46:20) I think it's calm. I was thinking about how I have learned even because I love to solve problems and try to figure things out. And if I can even do that with a calm spirit, even if I have to work fast and hard, but if I can have that calmness or Megan Fate has a book, Relaxed, which I haven't even read yet, but I'm excited to because I think it's this similar note where, you know, I think it's the way that Jesus like literally lived was just in this relaxed and calm state.   And so that's I've always loved calm and very drawn to it, people who are calm. And I think it's what I try to embody myself.   Laura Dugger: (46:21 - 46:54) I've gotten to be the recipient of that calm and relaxed posture from you today, but you're also so thoughtful of others and gentle and talented. And I'm leaving this chat so encouraged with the way that you've stepped into your unique design by our creator. And I just pray it inspires all of us to delight ourselves in the Lord and allow him to give us the desires of our hearts.   So, thank you very much, Liz, for being my guest today.   Liz Bell Young: (46:55 - 47:02) Thank you, Laura. It was great to be with you. It really was.   I'm so glad I got to talk to you. Likewise.   Laura Dugger: (47:03 – 50:46) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

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257. Mother Daughter Relationship During Teen Years and Beyond with Sandra Stanley and Allie Stanley Cooney   "Love never fails." 1 Corinthians 13:8a NIV   **Transcription Below**   Sandra Stanley received her Bachelor of Science degree from Georgia Tech and Master of Arts from Dallas Theological Seminary. Sandra has a heart for foster kids and foster families, as she and Andy have been foster parents since 2010. Her ministry passion is promoting foster care in the local church. Much of her time these days is spent working on various writing projects and continuing her involvement with Fostering Together, the foster care initiative of North Point Ministries. Connect with her online:   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sandrawstanley  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sandra.w.stanley/   X: https://twitter.com/sandrawstanley   Website: https://www.sandrastanley.com/   Allie Stanley Cooney graduated from Auburn University with a degree in Communication. She completed the North Point Residency program and simultaneously earned a Masters of Christian Education degree from Dallas Theological Seminary. With a decade of experience guiding students along their spiritual journeys, Allie is passionate about empowering middle school, high school and college students to embrace a life devoted to following Jesus wholeheartedly. She has a heart for middle school and high school students and can often be spotted at any number of local coffee shops pouring into girls in those seasons of life.   Connect with her on socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alliekaycooney   X: https://twitter.com/alliekaystanley    Questions and Topics We Cover: How can understanding the three potential relationship stages help these daughters navigate relationships with friends and with boys? When we coach our daughters through developing friendships, what questions do you suggest we ask for clarification and what Scripture do you share for understanding our responsibility within friendships? I love how you both emphasize alone time with Jesus. How can we learn and apply this?   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 200 Planting Seeds of Faith in Our Children with Courtney DeFeo 196 Parenting for the Relationship with Sandra Stanley   Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: Parenting the Prodigal Child And God's Desire For Redemption With Mother-Daughter Duo, Claire Stanfill and Tindell Baldwin Effective Parenting for Toddlers Through College with Wife, Mother to 8, and The Exchange Founder, Elizabeth Pehrson Intentional Questions to Ask Our Kids with Susan Seay 207 Cultivating Character in Our Children with Cynthia Yanof 212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee 217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler 220 Cultivating Healthy Family Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:08)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:46) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here.    Leman Property Management Co. has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.    I am so excited to get to host these guests, Sandra Stanley and her daughter, Allie Stanley Cooney. They have co-authored this amazing book entitled, Meet Me in the Middle, and throughout it I just loved their sense of humor. I appreciated their witty comments that had me laughing in the middle of their stories, but I also appreciate the practicality this book has to offer.   If you think back, Courtney DeFeo was a previous guest and we discussed the treasured Bible study, which is a great thing for mothers to walk through with their tween daughters, maybe girls of approximately ages 10 to 12, so I'll make sure and link that episode in the show notes, but today's book that we're kind of emphasizing is really good as that next step to highlight perhaps with your junior high or high school daughter. It's a beautiful book because you get really both real perspectives of the mother and the daughter from two drastically different angles, and that's kind of what our conversation is gonna look like today as I get to interview mother-daughter duo, Sandra and Allie. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sandra and Allie.   Sandra Stanley: (1:59 - 2:03) Thank you for having us.    Allie Stanley Cooney: Thank you for having us. We're excited to be here.   Sandra Stanley: We really are.   Laura Dugger: (2:04 - 2:13) Well, I would love for us to just begin with the two of you sharing some of the hardest and sweetest phases that you've walked through in your own mother-daughter relationship.   Sandra Stanley: (2:14 - 4:00) Okay, well, let's see. Allie, this is funny and this kind of weaves through probably every question, but we are wired very differently from each other, and I am more analytical, efficient, organized, you know, all that. Allie is so creative and just spontaneous, and she is the best content creator and all of that kind of stuff, and I obsess over the details of did I capitalize everything and spell everything, and so while that has been amazing in this project working together because we kind of, you know, can just sort of coach each other along in our strengths, there were some times along the way in when she was growing up that that would just naturally cause some clashes, and that is mostly on me because I have a hard time understanding why efficiency didn't make it to the fruits of the spirit list, and you know, in parenting, efficiency is not the goal. The relationship is the goal, and I would switch those sometimes and err on the side of trying to be efficient, so often when we had those difficult times, it was on me, not her, because of all that kind of stuff, so the sweetest part, though, is she has always inspired me.   Even when she was a kid, she just had a maturity and a desire to have an intimate relationship with the Lord from an early, early age, and I think she just challenged Andy and me both in our just our personal walks with the Lord and authenticity and a bunch of things like that, so it's been a sweet relationship, and we pretty much talk all day long.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (4:00 - 4:34) Yeah, I was gonna say the sweetest season, I think, is definitely this one because I had a baby girl about two years ago, and I remember holding my baby girl for the first, second, third time, whatever, and just like, I love her so much, I'm so overwhelmed, and then looking at my mom and being like, wait a minute, you've loved me this much this whole time? Like, that's crazy. So I think getting to be a mom and doing this project together and all the things, I think this season has been definitely one of the sweetest for sure.   Laura Dugger: (4:34 - 5:07) I think that's very encouraging to anybody raising children in their home, but with your book, there were so many topics for mothers and daughters, but I'd love to first focus on this one section that you title, Finding Your People, and it's where you're talking about relationships, especially with friends and with boys, and so Allie, how can understanding the three potential relationship stages help these daughters navigate relationships with friends and with boys?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (5:08 - 7:43) Yeah, definitely, so how our book is laid out, a little bit of context, my mom wrote the first eight chapters to the moms, and then I wrote the back eight chapters to the girls, and we go through these different topics, and one of the topics, like you said, is friends and boys, so when I was thinking about that chapter, there's some, I feel like when you're in middle school, when you're in high school, friends and boys, that's what you're thinking about, that's what you care about, that's what probably you want to read about if you're gonna have to read something, so I wanted to break this down in a way that it's not natural for, you know, middle schoolers and high schoolers to think about, so we break down the three, the three potential stages, stages, that's what I'm looking for, we break down the three stages and let them know that in each stage of a potential relationship, you're called to love, and so the first stage is just before you enter into this relationship, or before you become really close friends, when you're kind of thinking through, is this something I want, is this something that will be good for you, asking the questions like, does this person make me more like Jesus, is this person a good influence, will this person help my life be better, or will it ultimately make it worse, and what does it look like to navigate that season really well, and then the next season is when you're in the relationship, and how can you love that person well while also honoring yourself and honoring that person, and then the last one I think is my favorite, because I think we forget about it potentially, and obviously a lot of our relationships, my best friend that I met in middle school is still one of my very best friends, but a lot of relationships that you have in middle school and in high school, they tend to go away, so there is a stage that is after the relationship, whether that's a breakup, or you just kind of drift apart, whatever that looks like, and the reminder that we're still called to love, because I know culture especially is like, breakup, you should just say horrible things about them, and trash them, and if anybody's friends with them, then you can't be friends with them, and I think the reality is, no, even when the relationship is over, you're still called to love them, and that doesn't mean you need to be with them, or anything like that, but it does mean being kind about them, being thoughtful, being gentle, even when you're no longer in that relationship, so I think that's something that students don't really think about, once the relationship is over, it's like moving on, yeah, you're not called to anything anymore, so yeah.   Laura Dugger: (7:44 - 8:13) I love it, and you really highlight the scripture in 1 Corinthians 13, and so even though your lessons there were directed at daughters, there's something for each of us to learn for relationships, and Sandra, I'd love to hear from your side too, when we're coaching our daughters through developing friendships, what questions do you suggest we ask for clarification, and what scripture do you share for understanding our responsibility within friendships?   Sandra Stanley: (8:14 - 10:28) Yes, great question. Well, and Allie talked about the structure of the book a little bit, you know, that we have eight topics. I write eight to the mom's. She writes eight to the girls, in the middle is the meet me in the middle section, where they come together, and where they can have these conversations, so that's the time when maybe we are talking about, okay, what is a good friend, you know, what does a good friend look like, what are some characteristics of someone that you want to be friends with, and that you want to see every day, and do life together with, what are those characteristics, what makes a lifelong friend, you know, what's the difference between a short-term friend and a long-term friend, what causes friendships to be short-term, you know, what are the things that can cause one to end, and another big question that we talk about is, do you, and do I, and this all applies to us too, not just to the girls, so when we're doing this meet me in the middle section, and having these conversations, this is a two-way conversation, and I think as moms, it's so important for us to be, you know, authentic, and to dive in and say, yeah, I kind of still struggle with this too, but do I want to become more like this potential friend, that's a big question, is there, you know, is this a person that I want to be like, because scripture is clear in Ephesians 5, “He who walks with the wise becomes wise, and companion of fools suffers harm.” That's an important thing to talk about with our kids. You are going to become more like the people that you spend time with. Another question is: Is this somebody I want to introduce my mom and dad to? I remember there were talking with our middle son years, you know, after college, after he was already married. He said, you know, I always knew, this is not a person for me, if I knew it wasn't someone that I would want to bring home and introduce to you and dad, or to Allie. You know, is this somebody that I want Allie to be friends with for the next bunch of decades, so you know, is this somebody I want to introduce my family to, and so we do take a deep dive into 1 Corinthians 13, the love chapter, Allie asked the girls to circle the characteristics of love, I asked the moms, hey, play along, circle the characteristics of love, let's talk about what it really looks like to love, and let's talk about what it really looks like to have friends who are lovely, and who we want to spend more time with.   Laura Dugger: (10:29 - 10:58) There's so much wisdom in that, and then I think one of your secret sauces, just as a family in general, is your practical teaching, and so if we're taking this even further, let's dive in, it's between pages 64 and 65, but there are a few quotes that I'd love for you to unpack, and one of the first ones is, don't trade what you want most for what you want in the moment.   Sandra Stanley: (10:59 - 11:01) Right, right, do you want to talk about that?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (11:01 - 11:43) Yeah, so I think it's really easy, especially when you're in middle school and high school, and you want to be popular, and you don't want to be left out, and you might want to have a boyfriend, and the reality is, if you just zoom back a little bit, you know, it's like, okay, what do you ultimately want? You ultimately want a healthy family, you ultimately want things in the future, and unfortunately, in middle school and high school, there are certain decisions that you can make that can ultimately compromise what you ultimately want, and so I think having that wisdom and that forethought of, why don't you even think about what you want? Like, have you ever sat down and thought about what you want in your future?   Let's do that together, and then back it up from there, and then see if you're making decisions that will lead to that.   Sandra Stanley: (11:44 - 12:55) Yeah, I think so, and the good thing about the book is moms can contextualize some of this to the age of their daughters, so if it's an older daughter, and she's in a relationship where, you know, there's likely to be some struggle with, you know, how far do I go physically, you know, what are my standards going to be, is all that, to relate to all that, this particular quote is such an important thing to talk about.   Don't trade what you want most for what you might want in the moment, and that speaks, you know, really loudly to a physical relationship, and one of the good things about doing this meet-me-in-the-middle-with-a-daughter is you can have these conversations ahead of time, before there's a face, you know, that we're talking about, or a particular boyfriend or friendship. We can have these conversations early, and then when these things come, we can go back and go, hey, remember what we talked about, about don't trade what you want most for what you want in the moment? Let's just, I want you to go on this date, but I want you to remember that, you know, the decisions that you're gonna make now, they're gonna impact what your future is gonna be like, and the story that you're gonna tell, so that was, that was just kind of what we were, had in our minds as we talked about, don't trade what you want most for what you want in the moment.   Laura Dugger: (12:55 - 13:06) Well, then you follow it up with, don't let your future be negatively influenced by people who won't even be in your future, and I think that kind of...   Allie Stanley Cooney: (13:07 - 13:41) I remember that clicking when I was in high school. I remember, I was dating a guy, and I was like, no, I don't want to marry him, like, no, like, that'd be crazy. What?   And then I'm like, why am I dating him? Like, yeah, I don't want anything, I don't want my friendships impacted, like, I don't want to push my friendships away because I'm spending more time with him. Like there's so many things other than just physical boundaries, which obviously that's a huge one too.   But even aside from that, people who aren't going to be in your life long-term do have the potential to affect your future. So I think that's a really important one too.   Sandra Stanley: (13:41 - 14:28) And affect the relationships that you want to carry into your future. Your good friends, you know, the people that you want to spend time with. So that's a really important one, I think.   And these are great conversation topics. You know, even if you write it on a card and hand it to your daughter and say, hey, let's talk about what this looks like. Don't let your future be negatively influenced by people who won't even be in your future.   And this is where the mom in the conversation that they're having in the meet me in the middle section can talk about a relationship that she can remember having that she thought was going to be forever. And it was, you know, seven months of her life. And then it was over.   So having those opportunities to have these conversations with our girls is so important. And these two particular quotes are really important to talk about ahead of time.   Laura Dugger: (14:29 - 14:52) Certainly. And it just circles back to even Allie, those three things that you were talking about earlier, those three stages, your conclusion in that section is love never fails. And so if we actually are loving in the way the list of first Corinthians 13 love list, then that is hopefully going to set our daughters and us as mothers up for success.   Sandra Stanley: (14:52 - 14:53) Absolutely.   Laura Dugger: (14:54 - 16:57) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, Washington, and Canton. And with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Co.   They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. 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Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@LemanProps.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com.   That's L-E-M-A-N properties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.    And Sandra, would you mind just setting the scene, take us back to that day that you walked into your sweet daughter's messy room?   Sandra Stanley: (16:59 - 19:08) Which time? So, this is so funny, and it goes back to how we're wired so differently. I have a place for everything and everything has its place, and I clean up as I go, and all of that kind of stuff, and my sweet, creative daughter just operates differently.   But that manifests itself in a messy room, which really wasn't okay. And growing up, obviously, we want to teach our children just good habits and being tidy and all the things that are gonna serve them well later. So there was one particular day, she was at school, and I had been in her room doing something and realized, wow, this is kind of off the chart messy.   And so when she gets home, we're gonna have to have a conversation about this whole thing. So fast forward, we get to the afternoon, Allie's upstairs, and I know she's up there in her room, so this will be a good time. And I wasn't always the best at picking my approach or my timing, but I did work on it.   So by the time she was in high school, I think I was better maybe at that. She might not think so. But anyway, so anyway, so I walk in her room and I look, and she's sitting on the floor, just furiously typing.   And she goes, mom, before I can even say anything, mom, my girls are going into high school, I'm getting ready to leave to go to college, and there's just some things I need them to know. So I'm writing Allie's rules for high school. And she said, let me read them to you.   So she starts reading this list. And with every single one, my heart just started, I mean, I just started melting into the messy floor with her because I thought this is so much more important. If I were to describe the bullseye on the target in parenting, it would have nothing to do with the clean room.   It would have everything to do with the character of her heart. And as she was writing and reading me these rules, I thought this is Allie's heart on display. And it just kind of was a life changing moment for me.   And then I asked her if I could put it on my blog. I was actively blogging at the time. And she's like, sure, nobody will see it.   So you can put it on your blog.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (19:09 - 19:09) Cute little blog.   Sandra Stanley: (19:09 - 19:37) And as it turned out, it went viral and was all over the place and radio shows in the mornings and all that. On the first day of school, back to school in Fulton County in Atlanta, there was the Burt Show, I think it's still show, Burt Show, a radio show, drive time show. And he was reading them, reading them off.   And everybody in his studio was all commenting on each one of them. So as all of Fulton County is driving to school, Allie's rules for high school were being read to them.   Laura Dugger: (19:38 - 19:45) Wow. I mean, I guess knowing the list, it doesn't surprise me that it would go viral.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (19:46 - 19:48) And I- Surprised me, for sure, yeah.   Laura Dugger: (19:49 - 19:59) Well, I envision mothers and daughters even listening to this conversation together. I do wonder if my daughters would love to pause and go back and say, remember, mark of good parenting is not a clean room.   Sandra Stanley: (20:00 - 20:03) So- Right, they're gonna bookmark that statement, yeah.   Laura Dugger: (20:04 - 20:10) I was guilty of that too, growing up. But Allie, would you be willing to share some of those rules with us?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (20:10 - 21:44) Yeah, no, I'd love to. Well, I will say, so I was going into high school as the small group girls that I was leading. No, no, sorry, I was going into college while the small group girls I was leading were going into high school.   And there was just a lot of things I wanted them to know and to remember and things we had talked about and things that maybe I had learned the hard way or watched my friends learn the hard way. So I will say, hearing them go, like I didn't write them for everybody to hear them. You didn't write them for a universal audience.   No, I think I would have written them differently, but it's sweet now and I'm glad. So I'll just read a couple. I won't do all of them because there's 20 in the book.   But one, surround yourself with people who build you up, not with people who tear you down. Have an accountability partner and be willing to tell her everything. Emphasis on her.   Yep, be so, so, so, so, so, so careful about who you date. This one's my favorite. I don't know why, I just, I really, this one hits home.   If you're wondering if you should break up with him, break up with him. That's the one I learned the hard way. Yep.   Pray, pray, pray. Don't ever forget how much you need God. Have a quiet time.   It may seem like a hassle, but it will help you stay close to God. Be nice to your parents. They love you and want what's best for you.   So if you disagree with them, just remember that they're a lot smarter than you. Sorry about that. Never be afraid to say no.   When you fall on your face, get back up. There's a bunch more, but the last one is one of my favorites and it's selfies are for faces. That sounds like a good one.   Sandra Stanley: (21:44 - 21:49) That was such an insightful one just for girls to hear. Silly. You know, you do a face, a face.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (21:49 - 21:52) I mean, it was mostly like an inside joke.   Sandra Stanley: (21:52 - 22:03) So there were several that were inside jokes for them, which didn't make fun and didn't make a lot of sense on the radio to drive time in Fulton County, but they made it all funny and fun.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (22:03 - 22:05) So that's a couple of them.   Laura Dugger: (22:05 - 22:17) I actually thought that was one of my favorites as well. It was put in a succinct way. And at that time, you were just a few years ahead of them.   And so hearing that from you lands differently than hearing that from mom.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (22:18 - 22:18) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (22:19 - 22:35) But Allie, you're kind of explaining, it was one of those decisions, if you reverse back a little bit, can you share, you write that it was one of the best decisions to grow your faith. And it's something pretty replicable that I'm hoping others will grasp onto as well.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (22:35 - 23:12) No, and that was, if I'm remembering correctly, what I wrote in there, there's a couple of things, but deciding to be a middle school small group leader when I was in high school was probably the best decision I made for my faith because it caused me to take it really seriously. It made me realize, oh, the decisions I make aren't just going to affect me, it's actually now gonna affect these girls. I remember having a moment where I realized, okay, I don't wanna make any decision where I'm gonna be tempted to lie to these girls about it.   Cause you know, middle school girls, they asked me everything.   Sandra Stanley: (23:13 - 23:13) No boundaries.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (23:13 - 23:46) And they were all in my business. And so realizing like, okay, I don't wanna make a decision where if they ask me, which they will, I don't want to be tempted to lie to them. So what did those decisions look like?   What would I be proud to tell them? And ultimately what decisions do I want them to make when they're in high school? So it not only drew me a lot closer to Jesus, cause they also would ask me theological questions and like faith questions.   And I was like, I don't know, let me dive in. But also it was a really cool accountability that I really loved having in high school.   Sandra Stanley: (23:47 - 24:21) This is really one of the things that we've done for a long time in our church. And that is allow our high school students to partner with an adult to lead these small groups. And it just has, it has impacted all three of our kids in their faith journey.   And again, to Allie's point, a big part of it is accountability. Like, oh my goodness, I don't want my girls or my guys to, I don't wanna do something that's gonna cause me to either have to lie or that would be disappointing to them. And so I think it was a, I think it's a great part of the program, yeah.   But so volunteering, always huge.   Laura Dugger: (24:22 - 24:32) Agreed. And to get our students into ministry where they get to experience leadership early on, I think that's so profoundly impactful for faith.   Sandra Stanley: (24:32 - 24:33) That's exactly right, yes.   Laura Dugger: (24:34 - 24:59) Well, and something else that both of you emphasize, which I especially appreciated, was spending alone time with Jesus. And Allie, you were saying that we have to incorporate foundational beliefs and practices into our lives, specifically through two steps, learning and applying. So, will you elaborate on both of those parts?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (25:00 - 26:11) Yeah, so I, yeah, I mean, that's how we grow our faith. We can't have a faith if we don't know anything, and then we can't really have a faith if we're not putting what we know into practice. So, the learning really just looks like reading your Bible.   You know, it looks like it's those really obvious, quote unquote, steps. If you go to church, you've listened to the message and you take in the information about Jesus and about scripture and about God and about who you are and about who people are, and that's you're learning. You have to learn, you have to take in the information.   And then the second one is when you put it into practice, you know, you actually live out what scripture says, you live out what you're learning in church, you love the people around you well, you root yourself and establish yourself in the love of Jesus and who he says you are, and you walk in your identity. So, it's so multifaceted and there's a lot to it, but ultimately, if you can break it down and tell the girls, hey, we learn, and then we take what we learn and we do it, and that's how you grow your faith. And even when it gets hard, you keep going.   And even when people push back, you keep doing it, you keep learning, and you keep applying. And ultimately, that's how your faith grows.   Sandra Stanley: (26:12 - 26:20) And that is how a Jesus follower consistently follows Jesus. So, it's such an important thing. Yeah, absolutely.   Laura Dugger: (26:21 - 26:52) Well, and even one example of that, you first of all say, keep continually putting truth in front of you, but then you go a step further and you say, well, even before that, spend a little bit of time thinking about the best way to keep truth in front of you. And you challenge readers to consider the routines and rhythms of their normal day and see where they can put important truths in. So, do either of you have an example of how you do that in your own life?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (26:53 - 27:54) Yeah, and it's looked really different throughout my life. And I think I wanna give permission to these girls that it's okay if it looks different than somebody else, because we learn and we feel close to our heavenly father in different ways than everybody else and in different seasons of life. So, I remember when I was in middle school, I had a devotional, and it was very story-based.   It was like made up stories, but it had something to learn at the end of it. It had a moral and it was always Jesus-centered, and it was always about simple things like generosity and gratitude. And reading stories for me was how I connected with God.   And then as I got older, I started reading scripture for myself and I'm a huge journaler. So now my time looks a lot like reading scripture and journaling and then journaling some more and then reading scripture. And that's kind of where I find my time with the Lord.   Yeah, but it's definitely changed over time.   Sandra Stanley: (27:54 - 31:31) I would say that mine has changed in different seasons of life too. When you're single and you've got lots of flexibility and time, it really looked one way for me. It was morning and it was longer and all of that.   In the parenting seasons, it looked different throughout that journey when the little ones, I would try to get up before them and try to get my quiet time in, but it really did. It ebbed and flowed in the amount of time I was able to spend and all of that. In this season, I have more time.   And for me, it's always been better in the morning. I know some people are better at night and that's fine. For me, it's been morning, and I just have to have my space, my particular place that I go with all my quiet time materials there.   And when I'm there, it just, the distractions are minimal. And that's because that's just my place to be alone with my heavenly father. I've got a little spot to pray and a spot to sit and read and study.   And so that's what it looks like for me. I am so often asked by moms; do we make our kids have a quiet time? Do I make my middle school son or my middle school daughter or high school daughter have a quiet time?   And I always say, no, you don't need to make them do it. But I suggest three things. You model it, you encourage it, and you make it easy.   You model it, you encourage it and make it easy. So, I, my kids saw me and Andy having quiet times their whole childhood. And again, it looked different, different seasons, but they knew that we both spent time in the word and in prayer.   And that just modeled it for them. So, it was something that they just grew up kind of assuming is a given, which is a good thing, but you can also encourage it. And that's one of the things that we did was we just helped them as they got older, figure out what does this look like for you?   You know, what kind of, are you a morning person? Are you an evening person? Is this gonna be, you know, just helping them figure out best times and best practices and all that for their personality and temperaments.   And then making it easy. We always made sure our kids had age-appropriate Bibles in every season, starting when they couldn't even read little picture Bibles that were their own. We wanted them to have their own Bible and never remember a time that they didn't have their own.   And so we just made sure that, you know, different seasons of their lives, they had age appropriate Bibles. And one of the things that I did, and this is just a kind of a, maybe a little fun thing, their Easter baskets every year, while, you know, it always had some chocolate bunnies, you know, and all the normal Easter basket things, I always made sure that there were quiet time tools in their Easter basket that were age appropriate and, you know, proclivity appropriate based on what they liked. And, you know, one of our sons was a reader, one wasn't so much a reader, but if it was about an athlete and the athlete's testimony, they would both read that.   So, I would put all kinds of different things for Allie, journaling stuff, pens, colored pencils, just anything that I thought would encourage their journey in a quiet time. That was my big time to do that. And then of course, other times of the year, we would add some things, but model it, encourage it, make it easy.   And that's the best way to set your kids up to maybe make this as a habit. And even when they don't, nagging isn't gonna help, so don't nag, you know, don't nag under the guise of I'm just reminding them, but model it, encourage it in the appropriate ways and then make it easy.   Laura Dugger: (31:31 - 31:48) And I even thought there was additional practical wisdom that you shared within that section, just encouraging the mamas, guard your time. And how do you see that intentionality tying over into our time with the Lord?   Sandra Stanley: (31:48 - 34:00) Definitely it ties over. I think, you know, as we think about motherhood and Allie is experiencing this now, there's a whole other layer of busyness that gets added to your life. It's almost like the things on your calendar double.   And then as they get older, it's even more and more intense as they get older, because everybody, you know, has jobs. So, in this season with these moms of middle school and high school girls, they might be having their first little jobs or and your other kids also. So anyway, it's just a busy season and our time is limited.   So, we always say, Andy and I say this all the time to parents, your time is limited. So, you've got to limit what you do with your time. And when you make it a priority to have that time alone with your heavenly father, that's one of your biggest yeses.   And then they're just going to be some no's in different seasons. I call them categorical no's in different seasons of parenting. When the kids were little, I had all these categories of things that are just a no for now.   This might be a yes for later. It's a no for now. So, things like I'm doing now, like writing projects or speaking, or, you know, just stuff like that were no's when my kids were young, because those are so time consuming.   And so those were no for now, but not forever categories of things. So, I would say to moms and to daughters, you know, your time is limited. So, you've got to limit it.   And so, you know, pay attention to what the most important things are. And I would say, go so far as to say calendar those things, put those things on your calendar and treat them like appointments. Because typically the mom is the calendar keeper for the whole family.   And what we put on our calendars, what we actually do. And so I've always used my calendar that way to make sure that the most important things are on the calendar, even little things like call my grandmother, you know, back during those seasons, because I would get busy and, you know, two weeks would go by and, you know, I knew my time with her was limited. So just even little things like that I've always calendared.   And I think our quiet time may be something we need to calendar and give it a time slot. And, you know, for me, again, I'm the efficiency person. So that just works for me.   That doesn't necessarily mean that's for everybody, but it works for me.   Laura Dugger: (34:00 - 34:23) I think that's so good, Sandra. Thank you for sharing. And the two of you wrote about a couple really helpful words in a different section that was titled Family is Forever.   So, can you speak to the roles that gentleness and gratitude play in creating an enjoyable family culture? Yes.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (34:23 - 34:31) Yeah, well, I feel like a lot of girls feel like they don't have a lot of control within their family dynamics.   Sandra Stanley: (34:31 - 34:34) So, this was the topic on family in the book.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (34:34 - 36:07) So, you don't choose your family. You're not choosing what you're having for dinner. You're not choosing your curfew or your classes.   A lot of times in that season, it can feel like there's no control. And so, I wanted to give the girls a couple things that, hey, you do have a choice in these and you do control these as far as it depends on you. And so those things were appreciation, forgiveness, and gentleness.   So, appreciation, you can choose to appreciate your family. You can choose to appreciate your mom. You can choose to say thank you to the people around you for what they do.   Forgiveness, you choose to forgive. And then gentleness. This came a lot from my relationship with my brothers specifically.   How is the youngest of three? Of the youngest, I have two older brothers, and they were mean. Not gentle.   They were mean. And so, learning like, hey, they want you to respond in aggression. They want you to get angry.   That's kind of- They want a reaction. They want a reaction from you. And so responding in gentleness is actually how you deescalate the situation.   And I think that those things, it kind of gives girls like, oh, I'm not totally helpless. I'm not totally out of control. I can actually choose these things and I can choose to do them or not.   And I can see how it positively affects the family or if I choose not to do them, how it negatively affects the family. And we all have ownership in the family culture and vibes and feelings. And so, I think that helps the girls kind of have a grasp on something in their family.   Laura Dugger: (36:08 - 38:01) That's so good. And even, not that either one is more important for the other, but I really was thinking that sets children apart if they are grateful. And that sets parents apart if they are gentle and both are obviously encouraged in the Bible.   So I just thought that was incredible how you drew that out.    Do you love The Savvy Sauce? Do you gain anything when you listen?   Did you know that the two ways we earn money to keep this podcast live is through generous contributions from listeners and from our paying sponsors? That means we can promote your business and you're still supporting The Savvy Sauce. It's a win-win.   Please email us today at info@thesavvysauce.com to inquire about pricing for sponsoring each episode. Thank you for your consideration. And Sandra, you've been a previous guest.   I'll make sure and link to that episode in the show notes. That was about parenting, even starting with younger age children, which was wonderful. But Allie, this is my first time getting to meet you.   So, I'll share with you too. Your dad was actually my first pastor after I became a believer. So, I remember him preaching a series on better decisions, fewer regrets.   And he would challenge us to ask ourselves a question. I think I'm getting this right. In light of my past experiences, my current circumstances and my future hopes and dreams, what's the wise thing to do?   And so, as we're nearing the close of our conversation, would you like to share, after absorbing all this information from the conversation and from your book, now what? What is the wise thing to do?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (38:01 - 39:57) Yeah, so our last chapter is on decision-making because I do think all of it kind of points to the decisions and we point back to Philippians 4, where Paul is saying, now put it into practice. Everything you've learned, everything you've seen, all of these things, it's time to put it into practice. And so, pointing these girls and pointing these moms to stop in a moment and ask themselves exactly what you just said.   Okay, in spite of my past and my present and my future, what is the wise thing to do? What is the thing that will lead to healthier relationships? What is the thing that will lead to less regret in the future?   And I think it's even just a choice to stop and just ask that, because a lot of times we just go, go, go. We don't have time to stop to really think through anything, but the idea of, okay, before we make a decision, let's actually stop and ask ourselves, what is the wise thing to do? And it's not always gonna be popular.   It's not always gonna be easy. And sometimes you might be the only one doing it, but I know in my experience, and even when I was in high school, I went to public school, so I was surrounded by a lot of people who weren't making the wisest decisions and they were my friends and realizing, okay, I'm gonna, even though it's not popular, even though they might laugh at me, even though this might not go well for me, I know what I want my future to look like and therefore I'm gonna do the right thing. I'm gonna say no, or I'm gonna say yes, or I'm gonna do whatever I know the right thing to do is and just trust that it's gonna be okay and trust that my close friends will stick by me and my family will stick by me and they'll be proud of me. And so I think it's hard to do in the moment, but if you have that filter and if you stop and ask, then I think it's really, really great for you and your future.   Sandra Stanley: (39:58 - 41:46) And for moms and daughters to have this question in their back pocket as these things roll out, as hard decisions come along, it's just really important to ask what is the wise thing to do? And I think an approach for parenting in general, but especially for these moms of middle and high school girls, an approach and part of a conversation is, hey, Allie, I love you so much. And my goal is for you to get to the end of these middle school years or the end of these high school years with as few regrets as possible.   So, we're gonna get in the habit of asking this question, what is the wise thing for me to do? What is the wise thing for me to do in this situation? And the second question we talk about in that decision-making chapter is what story do I wanna tell?   When all of this is said and done, when this decision, even this one decision, when this is over and I'm on the other side of it, what is the story that I will want to tell? I think I'm gonna make that decision based on that. So those two questions, what is the wise thing to do and what story am I gonna wanna tell?   Those are big, big conversation pieces for moms and daughters to have and for moms and kids in general and dads and families to have, what's the wise thing to do and what story do you wanna tell? Because we wanna get them to a place where they have as few regrets as possible and God can certainly use our regrets, He can use our stuff. We're not gonna be perfect.   We are not gonna always get it right and we're not always gonna make the wise decision. And I think us being honest and chatting with our kids about decisions we didn't make that were the right ones that we might carry a little bit of baggage around on at the appropriate time and in the appropriate way, we can have those conversations with our kids and let them know, hey, I'm not perfect and I'm not expecting you to be perfect but let's get in the habit of asking these questions because they will cause us to have fewer regrets on the other side.   Laura Dugger: (41:47 - 41:53) So, good and it really puts you on the same team which you are when you're having these conversations.   Sandra Stanley: (41:53 - 42:18) And sometimes your kids don't feel that. They don't feel like we're on their team. They feel like we aren't because we don't want them to have fun or we don't want them to have freedom or whatever.   And it really does. These conversations do emphasize, hey, I am on your team and I am only saying no to this because I am so for you. And I think these conversations set us up for that.   Laura Dugger: (42:19 - 42:27) Well, you've shared some wise questions. Would you also be willing to share the prayer that Allie, I believe you prayed through high school?   Allie Stanley Cooney: (42:28 - 42:36) Yes, the prayer is give me the wisdom to know what's right and the courage to do what's right, even when it's hard and even when I have to do it by myself.   Sandra Stanley: (42:36 - 43:23) We started praying that for our kids before they even knew what we were saying. When they were toddlers, we were praying this prayer with them. And as they got older, that's when we tacked on the end, even if I'm the only one, even if I'm doing it by myself.   Because as you get older and you get into middle school and high school, sometimes you feel like you're the only one. And we celebrated like crazy when we caught our kids making a hard decision and especially if they were the only one. So, when we saw them making wise decisions, we didn't always catch it, but if we did, we wanted them to know this is to be celebrated because what's rewarded is repeated.   And we wanted to reward our kids for making those tough decisions. And I think Allie carried that on with her all the way through, so.   Laura Dugger: (43:24 - 43:36) Love that so much. And really, it's such a joy to learn from both of you. Can you tell us where to go after this conversation where we can continue learning from the wisdom of each of you?   Sandra Stanley: (43:36 - 43:56) Thank you. Yeah, the book is anywhere that you buy books, you know, on Amazon, all of the different places where you buy books. My website, sandrastanley.com has lots of links. Instagram, Allie Kay Cooney, yeah. So we're talking about it a lot these days, just in the season of talking about maybe in the middle.   Laura Dugger: (43:57 - 44:13) Love it. Well, you may know that I have one final question for you because we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for each one of you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Sandra Stanley: (44:14 - 45:04) You go. Okay, I'll start first. I think, Laura, it really is my calendar dictates my life.   But again, that's kind of a personality thing. But for me, if I don't get it on my calendar, it may or may not get done. So for me to put the biggest, most important things on my calendar, it just makes life more smooth for me.   So, I use my calendar for everything. There was a season where I even calendared exercise because it was a crazy season. I thought if I don't put it on here, I'm not gonna do it.   I have a rhythm with that now, so it's a little bit easier. But even things like making sure I'm checking in with my mom and dad, because they are in there getting to their late eighties and, you know, just little reminders of things that are most important that I don't wanna miss, that are easy to miss when I get busy, I just use my calendar for everything.   Allie Stanley Cooney: (45:05 - 45:51) Yeah, I think, I don't know if this is exactly what you mean, but recently, I wanna be off my phone more because it's just everyone's addicted to their phone. So, I got this thing called a brick, and I saw it on Instagram, ironically. But you can tap your phone onto it, and it basically shuts down any app other than whatever apps you want.   And the whole thing is you're turning your phone back into a tool and not a distraction. And it's pretty much changed my life. Because I'll sleep with it on brick, and then so I can't wake up and just like be on my phone.   So, then I have to like intentionally undo it to go on Instagram or do whatever. And then I just keep it bricked. And so, I'm not just scrolling, and it's been really, really helpful.   Laura Dugger: (45:52 - 46:21) I love it, those are so wonderful. And God has just blessed both of you with so many gifts, but I'm seeing so much wisdom, so much beauty in both of you, but your generosity to share because you have a unique family situation and are very well known. And yet you just are giving of yourselves through the time here, through the knowledge and wisdom that you shared in your book.   So, I want to say thank you for a thousand things, but thank you for being my guest today.   Sandra Stanley: (46:21 - 46:26) Thank you for having us. We really appreciate it. This was very fun.   Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (46:27 - 49:41) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Re-Release: Stories about Faith, Family, and Leading a Generous Business with John Wieland   **Transcription Below**   Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV) "“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”   Questions and Topics We Discuss: Are there any  personal stories that set your life on a different trajectory? Most business people do not have an experience like yours where they go from losing hundreds of thousands of dollars to becoming hugely profitable. Will you share your business journey with us? How has God taught you to grow in generosity and how can we learn to do the same? Uncommon Threads   John Wieland purchased a small, virtually bankrupt company in 1994. Under his leadership, MH Equipment has gone from having three branches and 50 employees to having over 900 employees and over 30 branches. Wieland is also the president of the His First Foundation, a non-profit that receives 10 percent of MH's profits. He teaches college graduates how to handle money responsibly, is a speaker and will guest preach from time to time. He and his wife Julie have four children: Jessica, Jennifer, Jamie and Josiah. They also have one granddaughter: Saylor.   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Other Recommended Business Leadership Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 12 How to Apply Successful Business Principles to Your Life with Dee Ann Turner 67 Thriving at Work, Home, and Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Business Owner, Crystal Paine 70 Energy to Spark Success in Your Business with Best-Selling Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Christy Wright 77 How 2 Questions Can Grow Your Business and Change Your Life with Author, Pastor, and Podcaster, Jeff Henderson 79 Radical Business and Radical Parenting with Gary & Marla Ringger, Founders of Lifesong for Orphans 127 Generational Differences in the Workplace with Haydn Shaw 132 Pursuing Your God-Given Dream with Francie Hinrichsen 152 Leadership Training: Five Key Elements for Creating Customer Loyalty in Your Business with Elizabeth Dixon 193 Biblical Principles as Wise Business Practices with Steve Robinson 198 Divine Productivity with Matt Perman   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:08)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:46) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here.    I'm grateful for today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria.   Check them out online to place your order for dining or catering, or to fill out an application to join their friendly team. Visit Chick-fil-A East Peoria.   If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities.   Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations.   All this information can be found on our recently updated website, TheSavvySauce.com. And now I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons. I am on site at MH Equipment to interview their CEO, John Wieland.   John is an inspiringly generous leader, and he recently published his first book, entitled Uncommon Thread, Weaving a Life Through Family, Business, and Faith. And we're going to cover each one of those topics now. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, John.   John Wieland: (1:47 - 1:49) Thank you very much, Laura. I look forward to this.   Laura Dugger: (1:50 - 2:02) I'm very excited about this chat as well. And we're going to go back a little bit as we begin. So, will you just first start us off with sharing how you came to a saving faith in Jesus Christ?   John Wieland: (2:03 - 3:49) Yeah. Growing up, I was a decent guy, very narcissistic. When I got to college, I started to realize I was missing something.   And a guy told me to start reading the Bible, and he suggested reading the book of Matthew. And so, I was feeling pretty good until I got to the Sermon on the Mount, which is Matthew 5 through 7. And in Matthew 7, it says, “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”   I was like, hold it. Many and few. Well, we still went to church, so I thought I was still in the club. A few verses later, they throw another bomb.   And Jesus says, “Hey, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven. On that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, do we not prophesy your name? Cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name. And then I will declare to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you evil doers.” In about a span of eight verses, I realized I was on the outside looking in.   And as I got further into the gospel, I realized that my sin has to be dealt with. And that Jesus is one that dealt it for me. And so that became a follower of Jesus when I was a sophomore in college.   Laura Dugger: (3:49 - 4:01) Wow. Thank you for sharing that testimony. And are there any other personal stories that you want to share that kind of illustrate how it set your life on a different trajectory?   John Wieland: (4:02 - 7:17) Yeah. Growing up, I really had a blessed environment. Mom and dad was great.   But I will share with you a moment in time when I was a senior in high school. And like I said, I was pretty narcissistic. I was dating a lady in my class and it wasn't long before she got pregnant.   I didn't think either one of us were at this stage where we should get married, let alone have a child. The idea of having a baby and giving it to one of the millions of couples who are crying out everyday for a baby to love didn't even enter my mind at that time because life was just about me. What was the most convenient for me at that time?   So we decided to have the abortion. My memory of that was that I paid for the abortion. When I talked to the lady about this book and asked her if she was okay with it, she had different memories.   She was very nice about it. But this was her memory. She said, I remember you telling me you had plans for college and that we were too young.   I remember being at the abortion clinic, sitting on a beanbag chair, waiting for them to call my name. I remember the pain of the procedure. I remember sitting in the recliner after the procedure, feeling numb, feeling cold, feeling empty.   I remember looking around wondering what I had done and wondering if I would go to hell for taking this soul's life. I remember seeing you for the first time afterwards and feeling sad. I remember you going off to college that fall.   There's not a month that goes by that I don't wonder what my child would have looked like, what my child would have become. I count my child as one of my own, my oldest. I had a ceremony for my child's death.   I pray for my child's soul. Significantly different memories, wouldn't you say? It was 12 years later that I met with a doctor and he's telling me that it's going to be very hard for me and my wife to conceive.   The irony did not pass me by. The only biological child that I was ever going to have, I aborted. I kind of felt like I was getting what I deserved.   The thing I learned is this. God is rich in mercy. He gave us four three-day-old babies to adopt.   It has been just an incredible journey to experience his mercy and grace. That has probably defined me probably as much as anything.   Laura Dugger: (7:17 - 7:57) Thank you for being willing to share such a personal story. I'm wondering for the people listening where that lands, if someone has made a similar choice and they've never received the forgiveness from Jesus. They've never been able to forgive themselves, but like you say, He is rich in mercy.   I think it's interesting how you even bring that up because just yesterday in church during our Sunday school hour, that was what our pastor was highlighting. How God doesn't say he's rich in other things in the Bible, but he is rich in mercy.   John Wieland: (7:58 - 8:48) A side note, just a couple of weeks ago, my daughter had a friend about 30 years old. She was single. She was dating someone.   She got pregnant. She didn't want to get married. She really didn't know if she wanted to have the baby, and she was thinking about taking the easy way out.   In God's sovereignty, she started to read the book that my daughter gave her that I wrote. After she read the chapter of four adoptions and one abortion, she decided, I'm not taking the easy way out. I'm going to have this child.   That makes being vulnerable and transparent to a broken world worth everything.   Laura Dugger: (8:50 - 9:10) Yes, absolutely. You have no idea whose life and even a baby's life that may be saved or changed through hearing this. Also, in your book, you've written about your family.   What would you say was the most impactful lesson that you learned from your family growing up?   John Wieland: (9:10 - 11:03) I think the most important thing I learned was from my dad, you do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because of the outcome. It's never wrong to do the right thing. With my mom, she was rich in mercy and grace.   People were people, and everybody was invited into our home. We had a house right across the high school. We had an in-ground swimming pool.   There were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that would come to our house for swimming parties. I thought that I was a real popular guy. I went off to college, and every time I would come home or talk to my mom or dad, they would say, “Hey, so-and-so came over for lunch today.”   I'm like, that's interesting. So-and-so came and had dinner with us. So-and-so came over just to talk to us.   I was like, this is really interesting. They haven't talked to me since I went to college, and I realized I was not the popular one. My parents were the popular one.   I was just window dressing. And so what I got from my home is God's currency is people, especially the brokenhearted, the hopeless, the hungry. And we need to lean into that community, that a society is judged on how we care for the least of us.   And I think I got that from my parents, as well as, obviously, the scripture.   Laura Dugger: (11:04 - 11:17) Absolutely. But it sounds like you had wonderful role models. And now as a father yourself, what are you most grateful you prioritized while you and your wife Julie were raising your own children?   John Wieland: (11:17 - 12:16) Even though we had resources, our children did not grow up entitled. We lived in a neighborhood, and our kids always had the fewest toys. I was engaged in their lives.   They liked that. I coached softball, basketball, soccer, etc., etc. Julie was a stay-at-home mom.   Obviously, she was more engaged in their lives. They knew that messing up wasn't a big deal. It was just a chance to grow.   With my background and the number of times I messed up, I'm sure I'm not going to be cast in many stones. But it's like an opportunity to learn and grow from there, and that my love was not dependent on their behavior. And then lastly, it was what my mom and dad taught, is to be kind to everyone, especially to those who are hurting and struggling.   So, I think those were the things that they came back with that said, you probably hit the ball there.   Laura Dugger: (12:16 - 12:20) What a neat opportunity to get to hear that from your growing children.   John Wieland: (12:21 - 12:57) I would encourage parents out there to ask your kids, even if they're in high school or grade school, where am I hitting the ball and I'm doing well, and where have I wounded you? Because sometimes when you've wounded them, you won't even remember when it happened. But it still is an impactful moment for them.   And so, I've had both of those conversations. Obviously, I like this conversation better as opposed to the times where I've wounded them. So, yeah.   Laura Dugger: (12:58 - 17:58) Well, thank you for sharing that. And now a brief message from our sponsors.  I want to say thank you to our longtime sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria.   I hope that you've already downloaded the Chick-fil-A app. Because did you know that with the app, you can skip the line and have food ready for you when you arrive? This is one of my favorite options when I'm taking my four daughters to Chick-fil-A East Peoria.   Download the Chick-fil-A app today and start earning points toward free rewards that are fully customized to your preferences and tastes. Chick-fil-A was named as one of Glassdoor's best places to work in the nation. That's a huge honor.   And one team member even wrote, “No comparison. This is a great job for a first job, extra money, or for career advancement. Such a loving environment, great management, and fair pay.”   Chick-fil-A believes that the local and involved ownership ensures fostering an environment where you are known, challenged, and cared for. So, if you're looking for a wonderful place to work, visit Chick-fil-A East Peoria or fill out an application online today at Chick-fil-A East Peoria.    Are you utilizing Savvy Sauce Charities to full capacity?   Other than our special Patreon re-release episodes, our content is now available in video form, in addition to our audio only. And we have written transcriptions for every episode. Visit our website today, thesavvysauce.com, to access all these forms of interviews. And while you're there, make sure you sign up for our email list to receive encouragement, questions, and recommended resources about once a month to promote your own practical chats for intentional living. I also want to remind you about the financial side of Savvy Sauce Charities. As you know, we recently became a non-profit, which means all your financial support is now tax deductible.   There are multiple ways to give, and we would be so honored if you would share your financial support with us so that we can continue producing free content that is accessible to the general public. Your money will go to support creatively getting the gospel message of Jesus Christ to the nations as we continue to share the good news on every episode. And I say this is reaching the nations because The Savvy Sauce podcast is downloaded in all 50 United States, as well as over 100 countries around the world.   Your financial support also supports practical needs, such as aiding our team to continue producing helpful content that is practical and uplifting and always pointing to Jesus. Your financial support, furthermore, will help us continue to expand our reach and secure future projects we have planned for this ministry. If your ears are hearing this message right now, I am specifically asking you to give.   We are so grateful for any amount, and our team will continue to seek to be good stewards of the gifts offered to us. So, if you want to write a check or set up an ongoing payment with your bank that delivers a check to us each month, this is the most beneficial way to give because no percentages are taken out for processing fees. You can make your check out to: Savvy Sauce Charities, P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois, 61561.  Additionally, with our new website, we now have a donate button. There are processing fees that we cover for these donations, but we wanted to offer listeners a seamless way to share their finances with us when we share our content with them. So just visit thesavvysauce.com and find the donate page under the tab support.    Another way to find it is simply type in donate to the search bar on our website and just click the first picture shown. We are all about sharing around here, sharing resources, sharing joy, and sharing the good news about Jesus Christ. We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing The Savvy Sauce podcast episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review.   You can also share any of our social media posts on Instagram or Facebook. We are grateful for all of it and we just love partnering together with you. Now, back to the show.   As we transition from family to business, I think it's just worth noting that most business people do not have an experience like yours where they go from losing hundreds of thousands of dollars to becoming hugely profitable. So, John, will you share your business journey with us now?   John Wieland: (17:58 - 20:30) Yeah, I was an average student, a very average student going into high school. The only thing I had any ability in was math. I got along well with numbers, so I did not have much of a problem figuring out what I was going to do.   It was going to have to do with numbers, so I became an accountant. I was a public accountant for an accounting firm, and I was auditing this company, MH Equipment, for about seven years, and they were virtually bankrupt. And there's a couple of things I learned being in public accounting.   I thought that an entrepreneur was a special type of person, that he was or she was really smart and just insightful. And as I audited all these companies, I realized some of these people aren't that smart, to the point where I'm thinking, I'm not that smart, but I think I'm smarter than them. And so the luster of, you have to be somebody special to be an entrepreneur, was taken away.   And so, fast forward, they were virtually bankrupt. The people that they did business with, their primary supplier, Hyster, they were going to decide who took it over, because they were going to have to write off about a million dollars for someone to take it over. I decided it wasn't a complicated business, and I tell people I was in the right place at the right time.   God is sovereign, and for some reason, they said yes to some 35-year-old guy who had no entrepreneurial spirit and can't even change his own oil. So, I had no mechanical skills. That was in 94.   For the next five years, the economy was great. And a good economy will cover a multitude of sins. And so, all the mistakes I was making, I wasn't having to really pay for them, because the economy was good.   And so, we went from 50 employees to close to 1,000 now, and we had three branches, and now we got 30 branches. And it's been a fun ride, because you're able to create a company that you want to be a part of. So, it's been a short 28 years.   Laura Dugger: (20:31 - 20:42) And then even to go more micro, there was a certain decision that you made that doesn't make sense on paper when you look at the numbers.   John Wieland: (20:43 - 22:14) Yes, it was in 2001. We had just bought two other companies and tripled the size of MH Equipment. I thought, like, I had some type of silver spoon and that I was a genius.   I wasn't. The economy turned on us. And in the first six months of 2001, we lost over $700,000.   Julie and I, we always wanted to give back to our communities by setting aside funds to make a positive difference in our communities, but we just never pulled the trigger. But it was at this low point in July of 2001, after we had lost $700,000, that we decided to go for it. And the executive team decided to start the His First Foundation, where we would commit 10% of all future profits starting in July to His First to come alongside our employees' passions.   Since then, MH Equipment, we have invested over $20 million to not-for-profits and charitable organizations. But we started it when we had to take a step of faith. And God honored that.   Laura Dugger: (22:15 - 22:28) That is incredibly powerful. And even since that point, how would you say that God's taught you to grow in generosity? And how can all of us learn to do the same?   John Wieland: (22:28 - 24:20) That is a great question. Scripture is very clear. You got to be faithful in small things.   If you're faithful in small things, He'll probably entrust you to be faithful in greater things. That's just a biblical principle. It's not a promise, but it's a principle.   And so, Julie and I, we've always had a heart for giving, and so when we didn't have much, we still gave. And the beauty about God is this. He doesn't need our money.   He does not care how many zeros there are before the decimal point. He's interested in how much of the giver is in the gift. Why do you think the rock star of giving is the poor widow who gave two pennies?   Because she was all in. And God loved it. And so people who are listening to this podcast, if you don't have much resources, this is a great opportunity.   To honor God, because if you choose to give something to somebody else, and you can't do something, that's a sacrifice. It's hard for people that have resources to actually sacrifice. So, I think it starts out at the beginning, and if you have not been overly generous with your time and your talents and your treasure, start.   I tell you, when you have a passion outside yourself, it is a game changer. You're so much more balanced. I mean, it's got to be tough to wake up everyday thinking life is all about you.   So, it has been a good journey.   Laura Dugger: (24:20 - 24:48) There's a lot of wisdom packed in there. And as I think back on our conversation already, we've covered a few aspects of your life, including faith and family and business lessons. And you've woven all of these areas together in your book, Uncommon Threads.   And this book might be classified as a secular book, but the gospel is naturally shared throughout. So, was that intentional?   John Wieland: (24:48 - 26:14) That was extremely intentional. I did not want to write a Christian book for one reason. I want non-Christians to read it.   The illustrator, who is Jim Burkle, who's a great illustrator, he's a missionary to Iranian refugees up in Michigan. He has been giving the books out to people. And a few months ago, he called and said, John, I got to tell you, I met this guy.   His father is in the mafia. He doesn't want to talk about Christ. He didn't want to think about going to church.   But he said he would read this book. Two weeks later, this guy called Jim and said, I read that book. It impacted me.   I want to talk to you. I don't want to preach to the choir. I want to create a book where non-Christians would not feel like they're being proselytized to every page.   But throughout the book, between family, business, and faith, the beauty of the cross is just naturally shared. Yeah, so I was intentional. I did not want that to be a uniquely Christian book because I want non-Christians to read it and like it.   Laura Dugger: (26:15 - 26:35) And I think you've very much done that and woven so many helpful stories and nuggets of wisdom tucked in there. But also in your book, you share an interesting story about sitting by a woman that had a very different lifestyle from you. So, can you tell me about that and what you learned?   John Wieland: (26:36 - 30:33) Yes. So, I'm on the plane. We're boarding it.   It's very crowded. I'm on the phone. I'm talking to one of my co-owners.   We're talking about Jesus. I used to think I said King Jesus. And the lady in front of me, she just tensed up when I said King Jesus.   And to her horror, when she sat down, I sat next to her. And, you know, I kind of felt like she may have a different lifestyle. And the last thing she wanted to do was sit by a Christian.   And I realized we need to own that. We have treated people who have a gay or lesbian lifestyle with meanness, judgment, hatred. And I thought, man, I want her to feel the love of Jesus.   Jesus, he doesn't want people to have lifestyles not because he's just mad. He wants them to be fulfilled. And so, during that time, I started talking to her.   And finally, I asked her what she liked to do. And she said, well, me and my partner, we like to go camping. And I think she thought, uh-oh, he will quit talking to me because now I've disclosed that I am gay.   And so, I just went back into and said, I just read a book on how people survive, you know, like land crashes. And some of the things that are common to all the people that survive when we start talking about it. And she just had a great conversation.   I said, “I would love to send you that book.” She went from hating the fact that she was sitting next to me to giving me her name, her personal address. I don't know what ever happened to Sarah.   But I think maybe for the first time, she felt loved by a follower of Jesus. And that can open doors. I have a cousin who got married, had two kids.   And then he decided he was gay or whatever and was with a guy for 40 years who just recently died. And this last year, he sent me a mass Christmas card from him and his partner. And on the back of the card, he wrote a few words that made me cry.   He simply said, “Your book was wonderful.” And I kind of felt like he felt like he gets it. He gets it that so many times Christians, they hate the sinner, you know.   And Jesus, he was a friend. He broke bread with the tax collectors and sinners. People flocked to him.   And if we want to change the world, we have to change our reputation. That is okay. I mean, I have a relative whose husband is going through a transgender thing.   And when this first started happening, they were all at our house for Thanksgiving. And I got the two. They were in the corner someplace.   And I walked up to them, and I said, “Look, you guys need to know this. You will always be welcomed in this home.   Laura Dugger: (30:36 - 30:45) That's powerful to hear tangibly how love can change things rather than hate.   John Wieland: (30:45 - 30:52) Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's a lesson that sitting by that person, I learned that well.   Laura Dugger: (30:53 - 31:44) Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper? Whether that's in parenting or on date nights, make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy.   Well, and just to highlight something else from your book, there's one chapter that was especially practical and it was entitled Leading Leaders. So, will you elaborate on a couple of your key takeaways? And we can begin with this one that you say every voice in the room is important.   John Wieland: (31:46 - 33:09) Yeah, I mean, if you want to have a healthy culture, everybody needs to have a voice. And as the leader, and if I have another leader, they think we should do A. The first thing I think about is what is the worst thing that can happen if we do A?   And if the worst thing that can happen is manageable, then let's go A. Because you're creating an environment where everybody will be open to speaking their opinions, their ideas. I mean, the Bible talks about out of the mouth of babes comes incredible wisdom.   And so, I think it's just really important that everyone has a voice. I also talk about never lose people because you're greedy. I mean, if you've got good people in your organization, be thinking about how can I give them more money?   That's why I've got like 12 people in the company that are minority shareholders. They own part of the buildings. I'm trying to figure out how to get them more money, not how I can pay as little as possible for as long as possible.   Laura Dugger: (33:09 - 33:31) I love that, both of those takeaways. And to circle back, when you have that thought cross your mind of what is the worst thing that could happen, does that oftentimes play out that the worst thing does happen? Or have there been times that it surprised you and going with that A that was mentioned turned out to be beneficial for all?   John Wieland: (33:31 - 34:16) Oh, actually, two times I went with it because I didn't understand what they were thinking. I didn't see their vision, but I trusted them. And both times I said, okay, the worst is manageable.   Both of them turned out to be home runs, not only for the company, but also for our customers and also financially. And so, all wisdom does not reside with you. And so, you need to understand just because you're the CEO, that does not mean you're the smartest guy in the room.   And typically, if you are, you haven't done a good job hiring.   Laura Dugger: (34:18 - 34:33) That's good. There were so many good business takeaways. And we oftentimes hear that leaders are readers.   So what are a few of the books that have most impacted you as a leader?   John Wieland: (34:33 - 36:34) Well, I'm going to say this. I don't want to come across overly spiritual, but the Bible, I try to read through that at least once a year. And it's interesting.   I was with a friend a couple of years ago, and they're like, does anyone have a good devotional that I can use and read this year? I'm looking for a good devotional. And I said, “Yeah, it's called the Bible.”   He was like, ooh, that's a good push. And so, guess what his devotion is. He's reading the scripture.   I like Business by the Book. That was an old book by Larry Burkett. And it really talked about if you say it's God, then act like your business is God.   And you don't have the right just to do whatever you want with it. You're a steward. I like to read a variety of genres.   I like to read human behavior. I like to read history. I like to read spiritual books.   I like to read biographies. You don't want to be a one-trick pony when it comes to conversations. You want to be interested.   You want to be able to pivot and talk to people about a wide variety of topics because that develops relationships. If they think that every time you talk to them, you're going to turn it to a spiritual conversation, I think that's going to get tiring. So, I'm a believer in being well-read, a variety of topics.   But again, if there's a book that you want to read continuously, I believe that God's Word keeps you on a solid path.   Laura Dugger: (36:35 - 36:57) I would say yes and amen to that. And I love that advice too for always being a reader and sharpening because we're never too young or too old to implement that habit. But I would also encourage other people listening to pick up a copy of your book as well.   So where can listeners get a copy of that?   John Wieland: (36:57 - 38:58) Yeah, you can get it at Barnes & Nobles. You could get it on Amazon. You can buy it at Paperback.   I don't produce the paperback, but we have the hardbacks and the hardbacks are only like $10 on Amazon. And if you put your name to who you want to give it to in parentheses under your name, I would address it to that person and sign it. And that's for a hardback.   And like I said, it's only $10. We did this. I did this.   It was not a money play. I have shared with you before. I'm glad it wasn't a money play because I've lost a lot of money on it.   And that wasn't the reason. It was because of the message. And I want people to have movement in their lives.   Obviously, I would love people who are not believers to come to saving faith in Christ. But Christians, there's just so many points of interest and stories where you'll grab a hold of something and pivot. And that's what I was hoping for is that when you read it, it's an easy read.   I write like I talk. I don't use big words. I'm 64 now.   I still like to read books with pictures in it. So, there's a bunch of illustrations in it. I'm selfie-facing.   And so, I always felt like if you want, if I want you to look in your mirror, I don't think it's very good for me to say, Laura, you need to look in your mirror. It's more effective to, as an author, to look in my own mirror and share honestly where I've messed up. And that gives the reader freedom to say, hmm, if he can be honest about that and put it on paper, maybe I need to look into this.   Laura Dugger: (39:00 - 39:25) Well, and I think this book has already touched many lives. And you were gracious to share a few of those stories of where that landed with people. So, I can't wait to see what else God has in store for this message.   But John, you may know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   John Wieland: (39:25 - 41:07) I'm going to give you two answers. One, from a business perspective, that is our culture. The importance of truly living out our mission and our vision and our values.   About four years ago, we had a lady who had been doing strategic planning for Fortune 500, the Army and the Navy. And she spent three days with MH Equipment. And at the end of three days, she made this declaration.   In all my years of over 40 years, I have never met a company whose value statements that were on their wall were so closely related to reality. And so, you have to live out your values. You can't have something on your wall and then live something else out.   From a personal standpoint, my savvy sauce is this. Everything's not okay. Quit saying that.   When someone asks me how things are going, I will always say, considering the ordinary struggles of life, things are going okay. You would not believe the responses I get from that simple statement. They're like, I know what you mean.   I'm having problems with my son. Be okay with your brokenness. Jesus is a perfect one.   We're not. And so, I think when a watching world sees Christians that are honest in their own brokenness and they're walking towards Jesus and saying, he's the one that loves us unconditionally. I think we make movement.   Laura Dugger: (41:08 - 41:47) Absolutely. John, it's a privilege to get to hear you share about your faith and your family and your business and really that it is built on faith.    It just brings to mind Matthew 6:33, “Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you.”    And I feel like your life experience really illustrates that scripture coming to life. And so, I appreciate your transparency, appreciate your humble leadership and really appreciate you being my guest today.   John Wieland: (41:47 - 41:51) Laura, I just loved our time together and I appreciate what you do for the kingdom.   Laura Dugger: (41:52 - 45:08) Thank you, John. One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

March 16 2025 Sunday Your Words Matter / Week 06 / T. Stacy Hayes #findoutwhoyouare My Vision My vision is to teach the world Who They Are In Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior! To Teach them what the Bible says about them and who they have been made to be in the promises of God's Word. This changed my life years ago and completely transformed me from a person full of doubt, fear and unbelief to a strong confident Christian that knows I can do anything through Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior. And I'm determined to teach the world what God has taught and commissioned me to teach and that is His Word.  That commission takes me to jails and detention centers weekly along with other open doors at many churches and ministries that are wanting to teach these important truths to the world. My podcast goes out 6 days a week to help the people I am ministering to grow in the truths that God has taught me for many years now. This podcast is free to all that want to listen and grow strong in who God has made them to be in Christ Jesus their Lord and Savior. Isaiah 53:5  Healing… Matthew 18:19  Agree with God's Word… Mark 10:29-30  100 Fold Return… Acts 10:34  God is no respecter of persons ”For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.“ Galatians 5:6 KJV ”For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love.“ Galatians 5:6 NLT ”For [if we are] in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith activated and energized and expressed and working through love.“ Galatians 5:6 AMPC ”For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.“ Galatians 6:15 KJV ”It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.“ Galatians 6:15 NLT ”For neither is circumcision [now] of any importance, nor uncircumcision, but [only] a new creation [the result of a new birth and a new nature in Christ Jesus, the Messiah].“ Galatians 6:15 AMPC ”Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3 KJV ”All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ.“ Ephesians 1:3 NLT ”May blessing (praise, laudation, and eulogy) be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual (given by the Holy Spirit) blessing in the heavenly realm!“ Ephesians 1:3 AMPC ”that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:“ Ephesians 1:10 KJV 'And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. ' Ephesians 1:10 NLT ”[He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth. Ephesians 1:10 AMPC ”and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:“ Ephesians 2:6 KJV ”For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.“ Ephesians 2:6 NLT ”And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).“ Ephesians 2:6 AMPC Romans 10:9-10  Salvation… Romans 10:17  Faith in God comes from hearing His Word… Matthew 11:28-30  Jesus'Yoke is Easy… John 3:16  God gave Jesus to pay for our Salvation… God Loves The abortion dr As Much As He Loves The Babies They Are Killing… Philippians 12:2  Work out your own Salvation… Romans 8:1  No condemnation in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior…  Luke Chapter 15 The Story Of The Prodigal Son… Philippians 4:19  God will supply all your needs let Him… Romans 4:20  Don't Stagger at What God Is Saying In His Word… John 15:5 We can't do anything aside from Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior… 2 Corinthians 5:17  We are new creatures in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior… 2 Corinthians 5:21  We are The Righteousness of God In Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior… Mark 10:29-30  100 Fold Return… Ephesians 2:8  We are Saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior… Believe God's Word Above All Opinions God Loves The abortion dr's As Much As He Loves The Babies They Are Killing… Mark 10:29-30  100 Fold Return… Share This Podcast On Your Social Media… Website https://the-prodigalson.com Email tstacyhayes@gmail.com  YouVersion Bible App https://my.bible.comi iOS App https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/prodigal-son/id1450529518?mt=8 …  Android App https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=tv.wizzard.android.prodical  Social Media https://www.facebook.com/The-Prodigal-SON-209069136315959/ https://www.facebook.com/noreligion1511/ https://twitter.com/noreligion1511 https://www.instagram.com/noreligion1511/ https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCPx4s1CLkSYef6mp4dSuU4w/featured

256. Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe   1 Corinthians 6:20 CEV "God paid a great price for you. So use your body to honor God."   **Transcription Below**   Emily MacLeod Wolfe is a Nurse Practitioner wellness professional with a passion for helping individuals achieve their health goals in a holistic and practical way.   With 5 years of invaluable experience in the field, Emily has developed a deep understanding of the importance of a balanced lifestyle for a vibrant life.   Emily firmly believes in treating the whole person, not just the symptoms, and takes a comprehensive approach to healthcare. She learned these from her own personal experience of dealing with Hashimoto's thyroiditis and eczema and found the root causes to treat them naturally. She is passionate to help others with the personal knowledge and health freedom she has received.   By combining her medical expertise with a focus on nutrition, exercise, and mindfulness, she empowers her clients to take control of their health and make sustainable lifestyle changes.   With a warm and empathetic demeanor, Emily creates a safe and supportive environment where clients feel heard and understood. She works closely with each individual to develop personalized wellness plans that are tailored to their unique needs and circumstances. Whether you're looking to improve your physical fitness, manage stress, or simply lead a healthier life, Emily is dedicated to guiding, encouraging & supporting you on your wellness journey.   Emily's Website   Find a Functional Medicine Provider in Your Area   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you define what it means when you refer to our "gut" and explain why our gut health is vitally important to our overall health? What lifestyle sets us up to have a healthier gut? If you had to simplify it and leave encouragement for each of these areas, what's a good starting point for something we can all start doing, stop doing, and continue doing?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business by Francie Hinrichsen   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Podcast: Being Intentional with our Health, Finances and Relationships with Elizabeth Dixon Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe Pursuing Health, Not Vanity Before and After Childbearing with Blogger, Speaker, and Coach, Megan Dahlman Sustainable Health & Nutrition with Molly Pfleuderer and Ryan Parnham Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri   Connect with us through The Savvy Sauce Website.   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**  Music: (0:00 – 0:08)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 – 1:15) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here.    If you are looking to start a business or side hustle, but you're not sure how to begin, I want to encourage you to pick up your copy of Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business. You can find it at foundingfemalesco.com.    Emily MacLeod-Wolfe is my kind and brilliant guest for today. She's a nurse practitioner, wellness professional, and she loves helping individuals achieve their health goals in a holistic and practical way.   Emily packs this conversation full of practical tips, and she sprinkles them throughout the entire episode. So, I hope you enjoy learning from her now. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Emily.    Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (1:16 – 1:20) Thank you so much for having me, Laura. I'm so excited to be here with you today.   Laura Dugger: (1:21 – 1:33) I'm thrilled for the opportunity to get to interview you. And just doing a little bit of research, I recognize you are such a gifted photographer. So, then what also led you to pursue a career in the health arena?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (1:34 - 5:05) Yes, thank you so much. So, first of all, with photography, from a very young age, I just started disappearing from family photos because I wanted to start taking them. And so I was blessed to have a couple of photography mentors, and I loved the ability to be able to capture someone and show them their worth and their beauty and give them maybe even an outside perspective of sometimes we can be so critical of ourselves and to be able to show someone their beauty and their worth in a photo, it was just incredible.   And so, I just have always, always been a people person and always loved really just showing people that. And then I started that and then it was actually my own health journey that ended up prompting me to go towards the health route. And so, I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's and eczema.   My skin, it was just I just became a bleeding open wound at one point where I literally couldn't I would cry myself to sleep. My mom would put mittens on my hands so that I would not scratch at night. We went to doctor after doctor and no one could figure out what was going on with all these health issues.   And they just kept prescribing medications and steroids, and it was it was making it worse. And there was a point where I went and did like a UV ray treatment and for my skin and my skin with the hydrocortisone had a reaction to the UV ray light. And then I went from like already looking really terrible, my skin falling off to like a burn patient.   And it was just horrible. And so from that point, I had prayed and felt prior that I was being called into medical missions. My parents are pastors.   And so, I really had a heart to do medical missions and be in ministry. And I thought immediately doctor. But then after I saw a nurse practitioner and she asked me all the questions that the doctors were not asking.   And she was like, what are you eating and what is your sleep like? What are your stress levels like? And we did allergy sensitivity testing.   And oh, my gosh, I was my gut was so imbalanced that I just could not eat anything. And I ate I was literally eating chicken and green beans for like nine months. But my gut reset because it was so inflamed and allergic to everything.   And we did certain things to calm the lining, heal the lining of the gut and my skin cleared. And it was incredible. That prompted me to go on this journey.   I was able to get off thyroid medication. The Lord healed my thyroid and prompted me into doing medical. And so I knew I wanted to go to Vanderbilt and I wanted to be a nurse practitioner and do the traditional training.   But go into holistic, integrative kind of have the best of both worlds, the traditional training. But then the functional medicine knowledge and then integrate the two. And so that's why my practice is called pure integrative health, because it's kind of blending both.   And I still do both. And I still do photography because I just love that creative aspect. And then I like the right and left brain.   It kind of gives a little change.   Laura Dugger: (5:05 - 5:27) I love that. That's such a good point. And I've learned so much from hearing you speak about these topics.   But it seems like people are starting to pay more attention to gut health in recent years. But will you just start baseline? Will you define what it means when you refer to our gut and explain why gut health is so vitally important to our overall health?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (5:28 - 8:59) Such a great question, Laura. Yes. So, first of all, the microbiome, which is it's our gut is essentially all the different intestines that colon, large intestine, small intestine, stomach.   That's the gut. Now, the lining of that, we've got billions of bacteria, trillions of bacteria in the gut. It's the only organ that is constantly communicating like through the vagus nerve.   There is continual communication called the set. The gut is called the second brain for a reason, because there is a constant stream of communication. The gut can actually send signals to the brain and then vice versa.   And so, it is the precursor to I mean, if we can heal the lining of the gut and if we can heal and balance out, when I say microbiome, it is the amount of good and bad bacteria that are all in in the gut. And so, we want a really healthy microbiome, which would be we want lots of strains of good bacteria outweighing the bad bacteria, very little to or just like not pathogenic, bad bacteria. So how and what do we do to kind of balance those things?   One thing is the good and bad bacteria. We want so many different strains of good bacteria. Now, studies have shown that over the last 100 years, the number of good back just even strains of different types of bacteria, the microbiome diversity has gone down dramatically.   And what could be causing that is the introduction of antibiotics, because since the introduction of antibiotics, there are far fewer. Good bacteria strains that are even possible to have and cultivate now, that's what keeps our immune system resilient is the abundance of many different types of good bacteria. And so, then when pathogenic bad bacteria viruses, we get sick, then the body has a strong enough immune system and the bacteria can just destroy the bad bacteria much quicker if we have that.   But just antibiotics, the chemicals in the food, toxins, even America's gluten, because it is genetically altered. It's not Italy's, but really good stuff. It's all affecting you.   Alcohol, the lining of the gut and weakening the immune system. Not why is this so important? Anyone that has autoimmune issues needs to be paying attention to the gut.   Hundred twenty percent because 90 percent of the immune system is made and synthesized in the gut. And so, then if the gut is sending out unhealthy signals, it will send those things. Rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, Hashimoto's thyroid disorder, just arthritis, anything with inflammation.   Yeah. So anyhow, all of those things, inflammation and it can be traced back to imbalances in the gut.   Laura Dugger: (9:00 - 9:23) And as you're sharing even what the gut is, just thinking food passes through all of those places as it gets processed. So, I'm assuming that I'm sure there's lifestyle factors as well. But is food the main reason beyond the antibiotics that are stripping it of the good bacteria?   Is that the main lifestyle change we can have is to eat a certain way?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (9:25 - 9:26) Great question.   Laura Dugger: (9:26 - 9:26) Yes.   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (9:26 - 14:25) So food is the game changer because it is true. You are what you eat and the foods that we're eating, some of them are just the quality in the food. We could get organic, but they're showing now that sometimes we're not even getting the nutrients from the soil anymore.   They're not putting the right nutrients in the soil that the food was even grown in. So we're not getting the minerals and we're not absorbing things like B vitamins are not even being absorbed as well. Into the lining of the gut.   It's not even there to begin with in the foods or they are grown, but sent across the country and then gone to a grocery store. And they are no longer like three, four, five, six days after harvesting the mineral content in our foods drastically drops. And so.   As much as possible, I recommend getting to know your farmer, getting to know local farmers markets, places that can really go back and get food that was just freshly harvested, because we're going to increase the chances of getting cleaner, more nutrient dense foods that way. That's one thing. And the other is.   Sometimes we can be eating foods that are healthy that could actually be causing damage to the lining of our gut. And what I mean is some of you might have heard something called leaky gut. Well, what is that?   And like, where does it come from? It's in the lining of the colon, large and small intestine, and the stomach. There are these tight junctions of the cells that just keep everything in the digestive tract as properly.   We need food to stay in the digestive tract. We don't need it anywhere else in the body. And so, if there's a stressor to the body, then it can be from toxins, chemicals, food additives, preservatives, pesticides.   It can start to wear. And like I said, genetically altered gluten can wear away at the lining of the tight junctions. And all of a sudden there's holes in the lining of the intestine causing food particles to leak into the bloodstream, which what is the problem with that?   And that can contribute to food allergies and food sensitivities popping up like crazy. So, for example, an allergy usually is pretty immediate. Most people know their allergies because hives, throat closing, etc.   Sensitivities present up to 72 hours after eating a food. So we're talking joint pain, bloating, diarrhea, constipation. We're talking mood swings, depression, anxiety, brain fog, acne, psoriasis, eczema, all sorts of things.   And it can show up 72 hours after eating the food. So, all of a sudden playing a guessing game. Well, I ate eggs three days ago.   I was feeling fine. I ate eggs today and I feel bloated. Was it this or was it was it the broccoli or was it this?   And so then there's this and it could be continual exposure. Now there's more inflammation in the body because then that increases inflammation that can cause weight gain. And then there's foods leaking into the bloodstream.   It's going to weaken the immune system. So oftentimes with the intestinal permeability, we'll see heightened seasonal allergies are getting way worse. We'll see food sensitivities popping up like crazy.   We'll just see overall getting sick more frequently, all of those things as well. So I do highly recommend doing a food sensitivity test because, for example, I had a patient just last week who was trying to eat as healthy as she possibly could. And she was eating salmon, spinach and rice.   Well, we did a food sensitivity test and she came back to find out that salmon, spinach and rice were three of the top most foods causing inflammation, sensitivities and allergies in her body. And that was contributing to the inflammation and all the ways that she was she was feeling terrible, which is crazy because those are healthy, good foods. But the body, if there's if there's, you know, breaches in the lining of the gut, it doesn't start to recognize good food versus it's just it could pop up from eating the same food every single day or from from vaccines at a very young age that hijack the immune system and then or antibiotics from a very young age or.   Yeah, I'm spilling out lots of information.   Laura Dugger: (14:25 - 14:45) So helpful. I'm going to try and remember it. There's a few follow up questions.   Just thinking back to when you talked about eczema and skin issues, I think I've heard you say before that the skin is the last place where it shows up, where your imbalance and overall health will show up. Is that correct?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (14:45 - 17:06) That is correct. That is. Yes, exactly.   And so even a lot of skin issues are oftentimes an indicator of there's something deeper going on. Acne, psoriasis, eczema, what's going on? Eczema, psoriasis are autoimmune also.   So, looking at the gut is absolutely a game changer. I like a gut analysis. I will say with food sensitivity tests, they're not all created equal.   I have one that I do with my patients that checks for allergy, sensitivities and inflammation because some tests just test sensitivities. Some just test allergy and some will not.   There's none that really just test inflammation on their own. But how much better if you can look at all three and add them up? What foods could be causing inflammation, which is going to increase like almost every disease out there can be linked back to inflammation.   And then we can get inflammation down or be preventative. Maybe you're not feeling bad but just want to be on the preventative side. Great.   We want to reduce inflammation. And then the sensitivities and then the allergies. So IgE, IgG and then inflammation markers and the lining would be like the best way to look at everything.   And you want to pull them out, heal the lining of the gut best we can. There are foods, there's supplements and things depends on the person to exactly what is going on with their lining of their gut. But generally it can be repaired, which is great news.   It's like, is it forever? Is it like you guys? No, it's not.   It's just because the lining of the gut can regenerate in two or three weeks. So even two months of true two or three months of truly pulling out any foods that could be causing inflammation is just incredible because it gives the body the opportunity to finally heal. If it's not always continually having stressors coming at it from something that we can control.   Laura Dugger: (17:06 - 19:54) And now a brief message from our sponsor.    Are you starting a business or side hustle this year? There is a book I love, and I want to personally recommend because it takes the guesswork out of what to do next.   It's entitled Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business. And it's available at foundingfemalesco.com with over 300 pages of proven business tips and tricks. Dream, Build, Grow is perfect for anyone searching for how to start a business from the ground up. It is written by Francie Hinrichsen, who is an entrepreneur and my personal friend. 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Francie's book has already received over 20 five-star reviews on Amazon.   And readers say they loved the guidance on exactly how to gain clarity, save time, and build a business that works for the modern woman's lifestyle. Dream, Build, Grow: A Female's Step-by-Step Guide for How to Start a Business by Francie Hinrichsen provides realistic, achievable, and step-by-step guidance to finally start the business you've been dreaming about.   You can also save 10% when you use the code SAVVY at foundingfemalesco.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.    Laura Dugger: And I'd love to eventually unpack how some of these symptoms may present, whether that's insomnia or brain fog, low energy, all kinds of symptoms.   But first, I think you've given us a little glimpse of hope, so I want to run with that for a moment. So, eating whole, healthy, organic when possible foods that are locally sourced. Then you mentioned supplements and this testing.   So what are those proactive ways with both lifestyle and supplements? What do you generally recommend?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (19:54 - 27:50) I will say that foods in general that increase the microbiome diversity, which is good, the good bacteria that increase can be foods like kefirs and sauerkraut and kimchi, the fermented foods. Even sourdough bread is more easily digestible because it is fermented. And so some of those type foods that are rich in probiotics.   So probiotics, the good bacteria. But then there's prebiotics. I'm like, you know probiotics maybe.   But the prebiotics are the food for the probiotics. So we really want to feed the prebiotics so that the probiotics can multiply. So what are foods that are rich in prebiotic?   Chicory root, inulin, like the greenish like bananas, like not too ripe, but greenish, closer to green. Those are rich in prebiotics. Asparagus, onions, leeks, garlic.   Those are rich in prebiotics. And yeah, and so increasing some of those foods can help fuel the probiotics and help them multiply. But I and then as far as supplements go, a really good high quality probiotic is good.   I will say not all probiotics are made or created equally. And I would recommend you that you that are listening to consider seeing a holistic practitioner that can partner with you to do like, you know, a gut test and a food sensitivity test. And then when you do a gut analysis, it's not super fun.   It's a stool analysis. But it looks at the lining of the gut. Like we talked about, it looks at bacterial overgrowth, looks at bacterial undergrowth.   Like, is there something that's growing that's that used to be good, but now it's overgrown and it's bad bacteria that needs to be killed off? We can figure that out. And then we can look at is their yeast overgrown in the colon that can be contributing to skin issues and frequent infections, different things.   And then it looks at like not all of them, but like the top 20 parasites. So, we can know, okay, at least we know which ones most of us have some degree of parasites. Unfortunately, I don't like to think about it too much.   None of us do. But just need to come in from anywhere and just need to kind of get that flushed out. But I don't recommend people just starting on parasite cleanses without like fully knowing what else could be going on.   Sure, we can assume parasites and could cleanse. But if there's other bad bacteria that needs to be killed off that is you don't know about, that could worsen the situation. Or there's something called small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, SIBO.   And that can be caused by like someone who maybe errs towards constipation. And so the stool is sat in the stomach and then it's backing up into not just sitting in the colon, but backing up into the small intestine. Now, that can present as eating foods and immediately feeling like bloated or waking up feeling really bloated and full all the time and don't know why.   A lot of gas, a lot of problems with constipation or diarrhea. In those cases, that's why I say consider a holistic practitioner to kind of partner with you. In those cases, feeding the probiotics is not a good idea because that can be overgrowing small intestinal bacteria or bacteria that should not be continually to grow.   It can make you feel worse. So that's why there's like a yes, these are really good. But also you just it's good to know exactly where your gut is at because not everybody's microbiome and gut is the same.   There's different pieces like mine. I was very sick at a young age and I had a lot of antibiotics when I was at a young age. I know that weakened my immune system.   I think that made me more susceptible to having eczema at such a young age and then that worsening. And then when you have one autoimmune issue, it's likely that it can continue on to another one. So then I had Hashimoto's, which is another autoimmune disorder of the thyroid, but kind of snowballing all having to do with the immune system and the gut.   And so the more that we know the bigger picture and figure out, OK, what stressors have been here and what do we need to do about it, then definitely helps with that. Oh, and something about the with brain fog, anxiety and depression. I just want to touch on the mental effects of the gut because that is huge.   So one thing is a lot of people have been put on antidepressants like Lexapro, SSRI, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors is what they're called. These antidepressants actually work more on the brain, which is not where we really want them to be working, because 80 to 90 percent of our serotonin receptors are in the gut. So dopamine, serotonin, melatonin, all of those really happy hormones that keep us happy and healthy.   There's a lot of people who haven't been diagnosed with anxiety, depression and been getting on these antidepressants and the antidepressant medications are not even working on the right organ. Isn't that crazy? So even in the gut, it's that's why a lot of the side effects of those medications are gut imbalances, because it's causing imbalances in the gut because of the gut brain access.   But really, what could we do if we can heal the lining of the gut? I have seen brain fog start to disappear because of bad bacteria or things that needed to be cleared out. I've seen more that you heal the gut, the more the thyroid gets balanced, the more that you heal the lining of the gut.   You can help heal the adrenals, which is just the way that body processes stress. That organ sits on top of the kidneys and vice versa, healing high cortisol stress hormones made in the adrenals. You could go back and heal the lining of the gut.   They're so interconnected, like each organ. And so anxiety, depression, ADHD. Oh, my goodness.   Kids with ADHD, I would say first thing, gut and food sensitivities. Check the food sensitivities, check the gut before going on ADHD medications, because there are likely mineral deficiencies that are happening, like B vitamins that are just not even being absorbed. D levels, different things that could be contributing to the problem that might not even be addressed.   Laura Dugger: (27:51 - 28:22) Well, and it sounds like the gut is the root cause of so many of these symptoms, but it's also very nuanced. And so seeing somebody like you would be ideal. Are there ever blanket statements that work?   I am thinking lifestyle, just how God created us to be outdoors and how that early morning light, that's kind of like a bio hack that helps all of these. Can you explain more about why that works or just any other things that would work for anyone?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (28:23 - 31:12) Yeah, that's great. So, one thing for sure is when you go outside first thing in the morning, you get 10, 15 minutes of that sunlight. The sunlight affects our vitamin D receptors and vitamin D is the precursor to melatonin.   So, melatonin is what helps us fall asleep and stay asleep. And so naturally increasing that melatonin so that it's funny, but you wake up that morning and then that night you're going to have a better sleep because of the morning sunlight. So, getting out even better is walking and moving because the more that we do exercise and that's going to increase the endorphins.   I know you've heard it before, but it's really true that if you exercise, it's going to increase serotonin and dopamine. It's going to give the body those surges of those things. And also in American culture, we're not moving enough and we're not tiring ourselves out physically.   I mean, we sure are tiring out the brain, but we're not tiring out the body. And so, there's this like discrepancy between an exhausted brain and then the body hasn't even had enough exercise. And then we try and go to bed and the brain keeps racing and the body's not as tired as it should be.   And so that's why also exercising daily and trying to get somewhere between that six thousand to seventy five hundred steps a day. That's like an hour of walking. I mean, you can walk around the house to that counts.   That's great. But just intentional walking and doing those things, that's going to help our mental health. And then weight bearing exercises are huge for prevention after the age of 30.   Twenties and the 20s is the decade in which well, teens and 20s, that is where we can build muscle. Lots of muscle can be built. And essentially after 30, it's just whatever muscle has been built will just continue to deteriorate until we die, which is unfortunate.   But that is why it is so, so, so important to do weight bearing exercise. It's not a doom and gloom. It's OK, let's be aware.   Yes, it's we're working against the natural decline in the muscles. That's why it's so important for prevention of osteoporosis, bone density, helping with sleep. So many things that weight bearing exercises one to three times.   If you need to start at one great work up to three times a week. Weight bearing exercises are incredible for men and women. It's good because it increases testosterone naturally.   Laura Dugger: (31:13 - 32:25) By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them.   We heard all of that and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab Show Notes on our website. Happy reading.    It also makes me wonder just about hydration, sleep and stress management, too. How do those play into the brain gut connection and all of these symptoms?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (32:25 - 34:21) Yes. So, the sleep and stress, I will tell you that high levels of stress zap good bacteria from the lining of the gut. So, we can do the right probiotics.   You can do that gut test. You can do all those things. And then if there's high levels of stress continually exposing the body, it will contribute to just some bacteria will literally be zapped.   I've seen gut analysis where like the lactobacillus strains just fully gone. And that's what stress can do to our bodies. And that's going to weaken the immune system because we don't have all the different strains that we need to.   And so that makes us more susceptible for that. And then cortisol levels is melatonin and cortisol. Melatonin helps us.   It's a bell curve that helps us fall asleep and stay asleep. And then cortisol helps us stay awake. But if there's high levels of stress right before bed, then we're not going to be able to calm down, wind down and be able to rest properly.   So a lot of it with that lifestyle of our bodies need rhythm. We have to our bodies crave the balance of a rhythm and consistent schedule, because then the body can, you know, just little signals of I'm winding down. This is what I do.   My body needs extra help sometimes. And like, OK, it's winding down. I'm drinking some tea and taking a shower.   I'm meditating on the word. I'm not going to be looking at my screens too much because blue light really does signal the body to produce cortisol and stay awake. That's the blue light is the morning sunlight.   So, you don't want to be giving yourself screen time right before bed, because then that will be giving your body the signal to stay awake.   Laura Dugger: (34:22 - 35:01) That's fascinating, because I think there's even studies that show that blue light, I think approximately between 11 p.m. and 4 a.m., that exposure to that blue light can even eventually lead to, I think, more depression and anxiety. And just how you're talking, God did not rhythmically design us in that way. And we knew we wouldn't have time to fit everything in.   So, I can't wait to have you back to discuss hormones. But as we're winding down this conversation today, if you want to package it up, Emily, and just share an easy takeaway, what can we start, stop and continue doing with this information?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (35:02 - 37:56) So, I would say I'm going to start with the morning sunlight, starting with gratitude. And I am a huge proponent of spending time with the Lord in the morning. And the physical aspects to our emotions and physical, spiritual, emotional is also interconnected.   So, like thanking the Lord, spending time in the scripture, quoting those things, truly physically changes our body. Like the scripture that says, renew your mind daily, truly has an effect on the neurotransmitters in our brain. Because 90% of what we remember is from the day before.   And then 90% of our thoughts are usually negative. So, if we're continually going on a trajectory, we're going to go downhill. Unless we are continually renewing the mind in the morning to truth, to scripture, to like, what does God say about me?   What does God say about my health? All of those things. So, so, so important because we got to shift the 90% narrative.   And we've got to shift what we thought yesterday to today. So, I would say, pair it with a little 10 minute walk in the morning. And I would say, do eat for blood sugar management.   We can get into this more into the next episode, for sure, because we're going to smaller, more frequent meals. And I'll get into why that is so important, but not skipping out and going, you know, five, six, seven hours. That was the blood sugar and glucose is going to spike and crash.   And then that's going to affect the gut, the hormones, and we'll get into that 100%. But the morning sunlight, taking time to really meditate on truth and scripture in the morning, and then cutting out processed oils. I would say that would be a really big one that we can start cooking with.   Baking it, broiling it, grilling it, cooking with whole, real foods as best sourced as you can control from local, if you can. And having a good protein source and then fiber, like a vegetable and a fat for a meal or like a protein fiber and complex carb, like sweet potato, brown rice, quinoa, something like that. It's going to give you more longer energy and lasts a lot longer than just eating fruit or just eating a piece of toast or just drinking a glass of orange juice.   Which is typical for American culture, but that's just spiking sugar and crashing it.   Laura Dugger: (37:57 - 38:03) Okay, so that's the start and stop. Is there anything to continue?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (38:04 - 39:20) Anything to continue? Continue with the working out and just being consistent in that. Because also, the more that we walk, we do workouts, exercise, cardio, mixed with weights, it is bringing oxygen to our tissues.   And I don't think most people think of it in that way. Most of us know a handful of our friends and family members, loved ones that have passed from cancer or dealt with cancer before. But we need to remember that exercise increases oxygen to the tissues and cancer cannot survive in an oxygen rich environment.   So the more that we are pumping our bodies with oxygen and getting it to the tissues, it's going to prevent a lot of those cancers. And it's going to improve cardiovascular health. And just walking 6,000 to 7,000 steps a day can reduce the risk of dying between the ages of 20 and 65 by 40%.   Just the walking part or cardiovascular events. So, I would say keep walking.   Laura Dugger: (39:21 - 39:39) That's incredible. Well, you are such a wealth of knowledge. And as you shared, even getting these food sensitivities and allergy and inflammation tests, is that something that we can seek from you even if we're living in a different state?   Or would we have to find somebody local?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (39:40 - 40:28) Great question. Yes. So a couple of different options.   I have an option, opportunity that I can. I would need to see. I do see out of state patients.   I just have to see them for their first evaluation. And then after that, we can do like a hybrid telemedicine. See you back once a year, that kind of thing.   So that's definitely an option. And then obviously in person will just work. I can order testing, you know, even to wherever it is needed.   As far as finding a local practitioner in your current state, there is a website, ifm.org. And then you can go to that website and find a practitioner. If you prefer someone right there local, then you can do that too.   But there's options. Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (40:28 - 40:30) Wonderful. Okay. Well, we will.   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (40:33 - 40:40) Pureintegrativehealth.com. That's the website, my website, that they can find out more information on how to become a patient if they were interested.   Laura Dugger: (40:41 - 40:49) Yeah. Wonderful. We'll link to those websites in the show notes for today's episode.   And I hope we all get a chance to meet you in person.   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (40:50 - 40:50) Thank you.   Laura Dugger: (40:50 - 41:07) Wonderful. Well, Emily, I've enjoyed this time so much. But I do have one more question for you because we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (41:08 - 42:45) I would say that my Savvy Sauce for today is the importance of eating smaller, more frequent meals centered around protein and never having sugar by itself. Including fruit, including carbs, always pairing it with protein and the order in which we eat a meal can affect glucose. Because if we can get the blood sugar controlled, it came out this year, type 3 diabetes, Alzheimer's, type 3 diabetes, sugar in the brain.   So we can prevent Alzheimer's, blood sugar issues, adrenal issues, thyroid issues, all of this getting down to the order in which we eat foods. And that is on a plate. If we can have the vegetable first, that's the gastric juices.   It gets it going and flowing. Then we eat the protein next. And that will stabilize and tell our body when we're full longer.    And then the carb. And that order, even on a plate, makes a big difference to glucose levels in the blood after eating. And so that, as well as just when we're pairing foods, we do not want to have the fruit by itself.   Have it with a little bit of protein, you know, a turkey stick or something with the fruit. It's okay to have, you know, treats. But just doing it with the protein is such a huge game changer.   Laura Dugger: (42:46 - 43:06) Wonderful. Wow. You are just a wealth of information, Emily.   And wrapped up in a very warm and engaging and likable personality. But there is so much more to dig into. And I'm so grateful that you've agreed to be a returning guest.   So, thank you for everything you've shared today. And I look forward to getting to host you again.   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (43:06 - 43:10) Thank you so much for having me, Laura. I've really had a great time. I appreciate it.   Laura Dugger: (43:10 - 43:11) My pleasure.   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (43:12 - 43:13) Okay, let's see you next time.   Laura Dugger: (43:14 - 46:54) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news.   And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners.   But Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a Savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today, right now, is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life?   We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So are you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have Show Notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

255. Redeeming Our Time with Jordan Raynor   “But as for you, be strong and do not lose courage, for there is reward for your work.” 2 Chronicles 15:7 AMP   **Transcription Below**   Jordan Raynor is a leading voice of the faith and work movement. Through his bestselling books (The Sacredness of Secular Work, Redeeming Your Time, The Creator in You, and The Royal in You.), keynote speeches, podcasts, and devotionals, Jordan has helped millions of Christians in every country on earth connect the gospel to their work.    In addition to his writing and speaking, Jordan serves as the Executive Chairman of Threshold 360, a venture-backed tech startup which Jordan previously ran as CEO following a string of successful ventures of his own.    Questions and Topics We Cover: 1. What does it look like, practically, to live on earth as it is in Heaven? 2. From your time studying of the Bible, do you find a difference in how our call to work applies to both men and women?  3. What are some ways we can pass along this wisdom to our children?   Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships  with Joey Odom Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson Practical Life Tips with Blogger, Rach Kincaid Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee Fruitful with Laura Dugger Ordering Your Priorities with Kat Lee Living Intentionally with Shunta Grant Cultivate What Matters in 2021 with Emily Thomas Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons Divine Productivity with Matt Perman Why Limits Are Good For Us with Kelly Kapic   Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka   Connect with The Savvy Sauce Our Website, Instagram or Facebook    Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   [00:00:00]   Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    [00:00:18]   Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com.    I am pleased to get to introduce you to my guest, author, speaker, entrepreneur, Jesus lover, and family man, Jordan Raynor. We're going to discuss what God's word has to say about topics such as the afterlife and then what that means now for how we spend our time and what work we get to do both as men and women.   Jordan is a content producer and much of our conversation today is a follow-up to one of his books entitled, Redeeming Your Time: 7 Biblical Principles for Being Purposeful, Present, and Wildly Productive. [00:01:31]    Here's our chat.    Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jordan.   Jordan Raynor: Laura, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me.   Laura Dugger: Well, it is truly my pleasure. I'd love just to begin here. How did you find your way into the work that you get to do today?   Jordan Raynor: I spent the majority of my career as a tech entrepreneur. I still have a foot in that world as executive chairman of the last company that I ran, but I spent 10 years full-time as a tech startup CEO.    I was in the process of exiting my second company when this kind of all started for me. So, you know, when you sell two companies, the natural thing to do is go start a third. So that was kind of the plan.    But for a hot minute there, my wife and I were really seriously thinking about planting a church. Why? Because I went to church often feeling this guilt that I think a lot of believers have felt of, Man, how dare I want to go to work and build a business tomorrow when there's a need for people to serve as pastors and move to mud huts 5,000 miles away from home to make disciples. [00:02:39]    So we're praying about these two paths: start another business, plan a church. One week after church, this mentor of mine pulled me aside. He's like, "Hey, I heard you're thinking about planting a church."    And I'm thinking this guy's going to pat me on the back, maybe write me my first check. He just looks me dead in the eyes, is like, "Yeah, I got to be honest, it sounds really dumb for you." Like, personally, I was like, "Oh, okay. Tell me more." He's like, "Listen, Jordan, you're a talented entrepreneur. You've served your customers and your team members and your investors with excellence. Why do you think you have to plant a church to do ministry? Don't you get that your work as an entrepreneur is ministry?"   I was like, "Yeah, no, I get it. I build these companies so I can write big checks to the missionaries, picture on my refrigerator, or share the gospel with my team members." He's like, "Yeah, but like so much more than that." I was like, "I have no idea what you're talking about."    So he's like, "Here's what I want you to do with this conversation, the background of your mind, I want you to read Genesis one and two." [00:03:39] And I'm thinking, "I've read Genesis one, two, five hundred times. What am I going to say? It's new."   But Laura, what I saw changed my life forever. I saw that before God tells us that He is loving or holy or omnipotent, He tells us that He is a God who works and creates. It's literally the first verb in the Bible. It's the only thing we know about God's character until Genesis 1:26, well, God says, let us make humankind in our image. Why? So that they may rule and work like God did long before the great commission to make disciples.    In Genesis 1, we see this first commission that God never once retracts for you and I to make culture. And that just stopped me dead in my tracks. So long story short, I did not go plant a church. I went and ran somebody else's company. But it set me on this search to really understand how the church's theology of work has gotten so, so lost. [00:04:38]    And it's led to the work I do today, which is creating a whole lot of content through books and podcasts and whatever, helping Christians understand the biblical story of work and God's plan for work from Genesis 1 all the way to Revelation 22 and respond to that truth in practical ways in how they do their work outside and inside of the home today.   Laura Dugger: Wow. Okay. So definitely want to talk about work, but then even zooming out bigger picture of our time, that some of the content that you've written about, and I'm specifically thinking about redeeming your time. So what would you say, Jordan, is one of your biggest cautions for us to consider, especially as it relates to ways that are culturally acceptable to spend our time, but they're not eternally wise ways to spend our time?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah, it's a really good question. [00:05:36] I think maybe the most significant one though is not where we spend it but how we spend it. I think culture outside of the church largely views time as a means of glorifying self, of pleasing self, of accumulating experiences and leisure.   It's the whole bucket list mentality, right? The purpose of your time now is to do it all because this is your only chance to do everything you want to do. And that's a deeply unbiblical lie that I think is one of Satan's favorites to peddle to believers and non-believers alike.   And so I think as believers, the gospel ought to compel us to not just manage our time for profit and for pleasure, but to redeem the time, as Paul says in Ephesians 5:15-16, to eternal ends, to things that are eternal.    And yes, that means souls, but it means way more than souls. I think a lot of times when we think about eternal uses of our time, we think exclusively in that bucket of evangelism. And Jesus didn't. [00:06:36] In fact, He spent 80% of His adult life swinging a hammer and making excellent tables and chairs. He spent time turning water into good wine and pursuing justice in the world and beauty in the world.    And I think all of that matters to God. I think all of that can be an eternally significant use of our time if, if, and this is the big IF, we're doing all those things with Christ-like love and compassion and excellence and in accordance with God's good and perfect word.   Laura Dugger: I guess you're starting to answer this, but I'm thinking then of the flip side of that question. What would you say are ways that God's will can be done on earth as it is in heaven?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that we could spend hours and hours and hours answering that question. I think we got to be clear though on what we mean by that term "heaven". [00:07:35] Because for the first time in church history, for the last 200 or 300 years or so, Christians, when they hear that word heaven, think almost exclusively about the present heaven, this amorphous, disembodied souls floating on clouds, which was not the hope of Jesus, it was not the ultimate hope of the writers of the New Testament.    God did not promise to fit us for heaven to dwell with Him there, as we sing every Christmas. He promised heaven on earth and to dwell with us here. See Revelation 21 and 22. And that's the "on earth" part.   So when we expand our thinking beyond heaven is only this place that disembodied souls go to in the future and we understand heaven as a state of affairs that is breaking into the present — Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is at hand — I think it greatly expands our vision of what it means to work in ways and manage our time in ways where God's will can be done on earth as it is in heaven. [00:08:32]    Yes, that means making disciples as we go about the work that God has given us to do. Yes, it means discipling our kids within our homes. But it also means cultivating beauty in the world. Because Revelation 21 says that when we do, we are scratching off a glimpse of the day when beauty will reign supreme over the face of the earth.   It means doing work with excellence, because Isaiah 60 tells us there are works of cultural excellence present on the new earth, which boggles the minds of many people, right?    So I think the definition is really, really broad of what that means to do our work on earth as it is in heaven. But the key is love. The key is, out of looking at the cross and understanding the love that God has shown us in Christ, letting that love overflow out of our hearts and spill into everything we do, whether we eat or drink or whatever it is that we spend our time doing, to riff off of Paul in 1 Corinthians 10. "Do it all for the glory of God."  [00:09:36]    What's his glory? The perfect love of His Son. When we're modeling that, that's what I think it means to bring heaven to earth, as Jesus calls us to do.   Laura Dugger: Okay, so expand our understanding, though, because I know you've been on a journey learning about heaven here on earth. What are some findings and realizations that you've made as you've studied scripture?   Jordan Raynor: Number one, nobody, including Jesus Christ, is going to spend eternity in heaven. If what we mean by heaven is the present heaven, where, God forbid, if I die in the plane that I'm about to go on tonight, I will be with Jesus in the present heaven. Nobody's going to spend eternity in that heaven. Read Revelation 21, read Isaiah 60 through 65, it makes that abundantly clear.    Number two, contrary to our American caricature of heaven as a glorified retirement home, Isaiah 65 says, starting in verse 17, God says, "See, I'll create new heavens and a new earth. My chosen people will build houses and dwell in them, and they will long enjoy the work of their hands." [00:10:39]    So, number one, nobody's going to spend eternity in heaven. Number two, on the new earth, we will worship by singing yes, but also by working with our hands alongside the risen Christ. And then I would say, you know, number three, I think what I'm learning more and more is we tend to think of heaven exclusively as a place that we go to in the future. And that is true in a sense, right?    But it's also, as I said before, this state of affairs that's relevant and breaking into the present, breaking into our homes, breaking into our communities. The good news of the gospel is not that I sit around and wait to go to heaven when I die. The good news of the gospel is that I get to partner with Jesus in cultivating heaven on earth until I die, and He returns with heaven in hand to finish the work, right? [00:11:36]    So I think as we expand our vision beyond these half-truths about heaven that secular and, frankly, church culture have been peddling for years, with the whole truths that we see in Scripture, it vastly expands our purpose in the present as we seek to redeem our time. And I also think it expands our hope for the future, because a future with Christ where He has truly made all things new and I get to long enjoy the work of my hands with Him is way more exciting to me, and way more importantly, way more biblical than endless harps and hammocks in the clouds. Way more exciting.   Laura Dugger: Absolutely. And then if you'd have to say what that means for us now, like on a regular Thursday afternoon, can you make it really practical?    Jordan Raynor: Yeah. I think it means, number one, you can have a whole lot more purpose in your work and feel much more alive doing the work, whether that's changing diapers or making widgets on your computer. [00:12:37] Because, listen, if earth is our temporary home, as Carrie Underwood likes to say — I love you, Carrie Underwood. I do — then matter doesn't matter, right? Like matter doesn't matter. And my work with matter doesn't matter.   And if that's true, less than 1% of my time matters for eternity. Because I'm willing to bet that our listeners spend less than 1% of their time on spiritual work like evangelism and prayer. But if earth will one day be our perfect and permanent home, then matter has to matter greatly to God. And my spiritual and super material and earthly work has to matter. And if that's true, then 100% of my time matters for eternity. And so what's the response?   I love that you brought up redeeming your time. Redeeming your time is the response. If 100% of my time matters for eternity, I have greater hope for the future, I have greater purpose in the present, and I'm much more motivated to redeem all of my time, to look at every single one of my minutes that I have living in this age as opportunities to glorify God and make things matter in the grand scheme of eternity because I understand that it does matter, and it's not all going to burn up in the end. [00:13:46]    So that's one of the practical responses. We can get uber, uber practical, talking about redeeming your time and how exactly to do that. But at a theological level, if you hold to this idea that earth is our temporary home, you're really saying that 99.9% of your time doesn't matter in the grand scheme of eternity. That's deeply depressing. And praise God, it's also deeply unbiblical.   Laura Dugger: Okay. So a few follow-up questions with that then as well. So all of this matters and is eternally valuable and valuable in this moment. What about our choices then where you could be numbing out on Netflix all night or Instagram or whatever social media, or pouring excellence into the work that you're doing or your family or something more significant. What's the difference between those two options if everything matters?   Jordan Raynor: Everything has the opportunity to matter. Everything matters in the sense that God's going to judge every minute that we spend. [00:14:48] But listen, you could have two people with the exact same job, exact same stage of life, and one of them is wasting it in the grand scheme of eternity.   It matters in the sense that God's going to count it. But we can certainly make our lives matter more for eternity based on how we steward those minutes. Christians have lost this doctrine that Paul makes very clear that every single minute we spend in this life will be judged. Our soul will not be judged. Our soul has been judged (past tense) based on what Christ did on the cross. Praise God, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.   But every believer will stand before the beam of seed of judgment to give an account for how we live this life. And those of us who wasted this life binging Netflix infinitely, you're still going to enter the kingdom of heaven if you were trusting in Christ alone for the forgiveness of your sins. But don't expect a whole lot of rewards when you show up there, right?   The ones who are going to be awarded with treasures in heaven that Jesus talked about, with crowns, with increased job responsibilities on the new earth, see the parable of the minas, are those of us who, like Paul, expended ourselves, spent with all the energy we have to make Christ known in what we make and how we do it and how we live our lives and how we do our work. [00:16:01] That's a response, is to get off of the couch and to get in the game of scratching off glimpses of heaven on earth in the present.   Laura Dugger: I love that. Yes and amen. Somebody previously on The Savvy Sauce called me spicy for asking questions like this. I don't intend it in a controversial way.   Jordan Raynor: Listen, if we're not going to talk about these things, why talk about anything at all? I love spicy questions. Come on.   Laura Dugger: Okay. So I would just love to hear your perspective, Jordan, especially because you have immersed yourself in the word of God and obviously you have the Spirit of God living inside you as well. So when you've wrestled with these ideas, do you find a difference in how this applies to men and women? And I'm specifically thinking about Genesis and work. And I can ask some more follow-up questions, but what would you say to that?   Jordan Raynor: Oh man, I love this question. [00:17:00] I don't get asked this question very much. Listen, is there a distinction? Sure. But not much of one. Adam and Eve were both called to work the garden and to take care of it as partners together in Genesis 1 and 2.    There are tons of women throughout scripture who are celebrated for their engagement in the first commission to fill the earth, so do it and rule. I think maybe the most poignant of them is Luke chapter 8. Luke chapter 8 says, name specific women who were, quote, "helping to support them —it's referring to Jesus and His disciples — out of their own means," end quote.    And based on what we know about Mary Magdalene and some of these other characters. I don't think they had means before they followed Jesus. So the implication is these women went to work, creating value in the marketplace to support Jesus and His followers. [00:18:00]    So all throughout scripture... I'll give you one more. Gosh. You want a case study that celebrates working women? Just go read the book of Exodus, right? Exodus 1 starts with Pharaoh who's looking around and fearful of these Hebrew boys. Why? Because he wasn't afraid of Hebrew girls because they represented no threat to him, right? He's like, Ah, no, it's the boys who are going to rise up and fight against me.    But who does Yahweh use to thwart Pharaoh's plans? Two midwives, working professionals, and a whole bunch of other women all throughout the book of Exodus. If you can't tell, I'm a raging Jesus feminist with three daughters under my roof right now. And so I love that you asked this question.   There are certainly distinctions. And listen, we got to be careful here. There are differences in genders. God-appointed gender. God appointed differences in leadership within the home and within the church, right, which is not popular outside of the church. [00:19:01] But I can't get around God's word here. But both men and women are called all throughout scripture to roll up them sleeves and work hard at the work of the Lord of cultivating creation for His glory and the good of others.   Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.    [00:19:21]   Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. 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So come see for yourself at Sam Leman in Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.    Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.    [00:20:42]   Laura Dugger: I think something I've been wrestling with lately is I wonder what lies Satan is whispering that we're not even aware of. And I think one piece is that it's sinful or unbiblical for women to work, especially to work outside the home. And I know God has a different call on everyone's life. But yeah, could you speak to that? We have four daughters. You have three daughters. This is-   Jordan Raynor: Oh my gosh, if I'm Satan, if I'm Satan, I would love nothing more than to convince 50% of the image of God not to bear God's image outside of the four walls of my home. That sounds like a pretty good strategy. That sounds like a killer strategy, right?   And listen, don't take my opinion for it. Don't take Laura's opinion for it. Go read the Word. I think when you open up God's Word, you're going to see that a lot of these... it's going to expose the lies. [00:21:43] By the way, Satan doesn't just peddle lies through nonbelievers. Just as frequently, I think we could say, Satan is peddling lies through well-intentioned believers. Lies about heaven and the new earth that we just talked about. Lies about work that I grew up believing as we talked about in the beginning of this. And I think lies about the role that women can joyfully and enthusiastically play working inside and outside the home for God's glory and the good of others.   Laura Dugger: So well said. I just completely agree that it's a both-and. They think some people are called inside the home and that is a worthy work, and some are not.   Jordan Raynor: 100%. By the way, my wife works full-time in the home. That is a noble calling that she's chosen for this season. And I'm so appreciative of that. But there have been other seasons where she hasn't chosen that. Blessed be the name of the Lord.   We're so obsessed with black... we're all Pharisees. [00:22:45] We love adding extra regulations and rules on top of God's Word, this extra-biblical junk to make ourselves feel superior to one another. And I think when we get back to the Word, we find a lot more freedom than we find in our churches and our pharisaical structures.   Laura Dugger: Okay, so then you and your wife, I'd love to hear the ages of your daughters and how you two are engaging with them and teaching or discipling them on topics like this.   Jordan Raynor: I've been married to Kara for 15 years now. She's the love of my life. I love her dearly. And we got three little girls. So Ellison is 10, Kate is 8, and Emery, we adopted at birth almost five years ago. It'll be five years, one month from today.   And yeah, discipling them is a challenge and a joy. I think the hardest part is just redeeming the time and making space for intentional time with them. [00:23:50] And we can talk about how we do that if you're interested.   But, you know, practically what discipleship looks like in our home is every morning around the breakfast table, I'm there with the girls memorizing God's word. And not just memorize it, but really talking about it. So take it a week, right? It's like, okay, we love because He first loved us. Who's He? What does that mean? How did Christ show that love to us? And what does it look like practically for us to show that love to others?   So scripture memorization and discussion of the scriptures is a big part of it. Don't hear me saying we do family devotionals. We don't. We're not that put together. We're not that formal. It's really just taking a passage of scripture and hiding it in their hearts and trying to make it as practical and actionable for the day as possible.   Then, two, we talk with our kids a lot. As much as we can, we are pointing them to God and His goodness in regular conversations. It may be specific studies. I'm writing books for kids. So I wrote a book called The Creator in You about the call to create that we see in Genesis 1. [00:24:51] I'm about to publish a second one called The Royal in You about ruling and working with Jesus on the new earth. So we're constantly talking about those themes.    And then also looking for really tactical physical things within the house to point them to Jesus. I'll give one example, then I'll shut up, and or you can follow up on anything you want. I was really convicted by a friend and again, this is at the risk of sounding pharisaical. I'm not saying this is a rule you got to do. This is just working for my family.   I said the word "awesome" like three times in a conversation. He's like, "Hey, only God is awesome." It really stopped me and maybe take stock of my words. I'm like, "Man, there should be a word awesome, amazing, whatever you want, right, whatever works for you works, but there should be a word that we reserve for God alone, right? Even holy. We talk about us being holy as God is holy, right?    And so we just decided we're going to reserve "awesome" for God. [00:25:50] And we put a jar, kind of like a swear jar in people's houses. We put a “not awesome” jar in the middle of our living room. And every time somebody says something's awesome, other than God, we have to put a buck in it. And then we donate that money to an orphanage that we love supporting.   But Laura, that sounds silly and really trivial, but guess what? In the last week, it's given me, I don't know, 15 opportunities to talk about how Jesus is better than any creative thing. Man, I'll do that all day long. I'm constantly looking for little things like that to latch on to, to talk about God's goodness, to talk about His awesomeness, and talk about the role that He's called us to play in bringing heaven to earth.   Laura Dugger: Wow. No, that doesn't sound silly at all. Actually, it just is in line with these themes, intentional in our work, intentional in our time, intentional in our words, and that matters.   Jordan Raynor: I love John Tyson and his book, The Intentional Father. [00:26:54] I'm the overly intentional father. I am too intentional. And that will show up in this conversation, I promise.   Laura Dugger: No, we celebrate that around here for sure. That was kind of my follow-up question you just alluded to, being intentional. Was it with getting time with your daughters? Do you and Kara have a system for that?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. Yeah, we do. Listen, this isn't going to come as a surprise to anybody listening. Our phones are enemy number one in our fight for deep work that we do in front of the laptop, but also the deep work of discipleship with our kids. And maybe the biggest game changer of my life and discipling my kids is that my kids never, almost never see me on my phone inside of my house. Outside my house for direction, sure.    I track this. I log every day that they see me. The last 90 days, my kids have seen me on my phone one time, inside of my house. [00:27:52] You better believe they know that dad loves them, but more importantly, it gives me more intentional space to be with them without being distracted.    And I know that sounds impossible to listeners. So let me give you five steps for cultivating this. If you want to do this, you're like, man, yeah, I would love to put my phone down for an hour and not think about it. Five steps. It's really simple to do, but it's going to take a lot of courage.    Number one, choose ahead of time when you want to check your texts and emails and asynchronous messages, right? It could be every hour. It could be on a, maybe say it's 10 a.m., 12 p.m., 2 p.m., 4 p.m., 6 p.m. That's it. Whatever.    Step two, build a list of VIPs who will have access to it all times and not just those predetermined times. So my VIPs are my wife, my kids' school, my assistant. It's pretty much it. Step three, pull out your phone and add all of your VIPs to your Favorites list if you're an iOS user or "Your people" list, if you're an Android user, that way, when you use just the basic out-of-the-box, do not disturb settings on your phone, only calls from those people come through. [00:28:57] Not their texts, not their emails, not every Instagram notification of people liking yet another picture of your dog, just phone calls from your VIPs.   Step four, you got to set clear expectations with your VIPs about your new response time. You send them a very simple message like this. I actually give you the template in the Redeeming Your Time book, but this is the gist. "Hey, I'm trying to be more focused with my kids at home." I know by the way, also at work, especially if you're sending this to your boss. "Here's how you can help me from now on. I'm only checking emails, texts, etc., at X, Y, and Z times. However, you're a VIP in my life. And so if you need me more urgently than that, do not text me, I won't see it. Don't email me. I won't see it. But if you call me on my cell, I'll answer every single time that I can."   Last step, step five, put your phone away for an hour and a half at a time. When you're with your kids, keep your phone out of sight, out of mind. For mine, I keep it in my master bathroom. It's on "do not disturb". I turn the ringer on. [00:29:58]    And here's what happens. I actually spent two and a half hours apart from my phone at nighttime from 5 to seven 30 p.m. every single night. And functionally what I've done is I've turned my cell phone into a landline, right? If the phone rings, I can go in there and see what VIP is calling and decide whether or not I want to answer it. But in all that other time, I am fully focused on my kids and the conversations I'm having with them about their day.    Laura, it's been a total, total game changer for me and for thousands and thousands of readers of Redeeming Your Time. This is one of 32 practices in the book, and I'm willing to bet it's probably in the top five of reader favorites.   Laura Dugger: Well, and I can see why that's incredible. And I'm curious, Jordan, do you know Joey Odom with Aro?   Jordan Raynor: I know Joey. I talked to Joey yesterday. I love Joey Odom.   Laura Dugger: Okay. He's wonderful. So we will link to an episode that he did on The Savvy Sauce. [00:31:00] If you're looking for more practical ways as well, like you said, putting your phone away, he just can contribute. I think that partners nicely.   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. And if you don't know Aro, go check out the episode. But basically it's an app on your phone. It's also a physical box that you can put the phone in. And it basically gamifies what I just explained.    So instead of me being accountable to care of my kids, I could theoretically share with my friends, "Hey, I spent two and a half hours today apart from my phone. Here's a screenshot of the evidence. I love what Joey and their team are doing. It's incredible.   Laura Dugger: And like you said, this is just one of the helpful suggestions in Redeeming Your Time. My husband and I have both benefited so much from that book.   Jordan Raynor: I love it. Thank you.   Laura Dugger: Well, yes. And thank you. But I'd love for you to walk us through the topics and the questions that we ask ourselves as we metaphorically go floor by floor through the building of intentional living.   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. Yeah. It's a great question. [00:32:00] You're asking about chapter four of the book, where I'm talking about prioritizing our yeses. And we hear about all these different terms when it comes to setting priorities. We talk about mission statements and callings and long-term goal, whatever. I just found it necessary for myself to bake the cake and put it all together. Be like, okay, give me one simple framework for thinking about all these things and how they connect to each other.    And so the metaphor I use in the book is this five-story building where on the fifth floor, the very top of this hotel, whatever you envision this building being is your mission in life that is over everything else. Listen, there are people selling books left and right, helping you discern the mission for your life. I'll let you off the hook for having to buy those. Listen, you didn't make yourself and so you don't get to choose the mission of your life. God does. Here's the mission of your life: to glorify God, period, full stop, right?   Now God in this goodness has given us a lot of freedom to choose the callings on the fourth floor of how we will live out that mission. But that's your mission, right? [00:33:05] So mission, fifth floor; fourth floor, next level down is callings. So I am called right now to be a husband, to be a father, and to be the CEO of Jordan Raynor company and create this content. That's it. I've chosen three callings, right?    The next level down are long-term goals. This is level three of the building, okay? Long-term goals. I am the biggest believer in the world in setting the biggest possible long-term goals, because in my experience, that's what helps me say no. If I have really small goals, I am getting sucked into the thick of thin things every single time.    So I would argue Christ's power should be setting the biggest long-term goals on the planet. By long-term, I'm talking at least a year, more likely three to five years, setting those long-term goals for each of your callings.    Then the next level down are short-term goals, which whatever works for you works. Maybe you want to set goals on a weekly basis, monthly basis. I love the quarterly cadence. [00:34:05] Every three months, looking at my long-term goals and setting quarterly goals that are attached to that.    And then the bottom floor, the first floor of this metaphorical building are what I call projects and actions. This is the tactical stuff. This is your to-do list born out of mission calling, long-term goals, short-term goals.    Okay. What are the specific projects and actions that I need to execute against over the next seven days, over the next quarter to make progress towards those goals? And then, as you know, Laura, there's a secret sixth floor to this building, which it doesn't deserve to be called a floor. It's the basement.    And this is what I call posteriorities. And this might be the most important. This is everything else that falls outside of what's already on my plate professionally and what falls under those short-term goals. Everything else goes into the basement of my mind in this metaphorical building. [00:35:05]    And so in my to-do list app, what I call my commitment tracking system, all of those projects and actions literally go in a separate folder called "Someday" that I only look at every 90 days. Once every 90 days, I look at that, decide if there's anything I want to pull out and work on over the next 90 days. But for the other, what is that, 89 days and a quarter, all of those things are out of sight, out of mind, so that I can fully focus on the work that I believe that God has called me to execute against over the next three months.   Laura Dugger: So good. Again, and these 90 days, let's zoom in on that. We also share a passion for the quarterly time, even the brain science behind it, that your brain can only be reminded and to hang on to a goal for 90 days. What does yours actually look like in these 90 days? Can you give us some examples in your own life of a goal for your calling and then ground floor what that looks like? [00:36:08]    Jordan Raynor: Yeah, I would be happy to. I'll show you some quarterly goals for the family. I got personal and professional short-term goals, quarterly goals. Here's a personal one. I really love the OKR framework, which if you're not familiar with it, Google made this famous, stands for objectives and key results.   So objectives are aspirational. They're the what you want to accomplish. And the key results are measurable and they tell you whether or not you reached the what. So, for example, this quarter, personally, objective. Strengthen my point of view on youth sports and whether or not it is in line with our family's goal to love like Jesus.    This one's going to hit for our audience. I have a feeling. Key result number one: read three credible articles from youth sports advocates and three articles from Detractors. [00:37:10]    Key result number two, post questions on this topic to at least two godly friends who have had their kids in serious youth sports and two who have intentionally chosen not to.    And then key result number three, draft a summary of my point of view on this topic and deliver it to Kara by December 31st.   All right. Let me give you a professional example. In this quarter, yeah, I'll share this, whatever. This is a little inside baseball, but it's fun. I can't say the name of it, but the objective is to sell my first TV show to Netflix or Amazon.    We're currently shopping a project right now. I actually only have one key result for this and it's to get one yes or three nos from A-list actors to agree to play the starring role in this show. So that's how I'll know. That's the progress I'm going to make towards that goal.    So that's just a couple of examples from my life. I obsess over this quote from Bill Gates though. I think this would be helpful for our listeners. [00:38:10] Gates once said that we human beings have the tendency to vastly overestimate what we can accomplish in a short period of time, i.e. a quarter, and vastly underestimate what we can do in a decade with what Eugene Peterson called long obedience in the same direction, right?   So if you take one thing from this conversation on goals, take that from Bill Gates. What you can get done in three months is virtually nothing, right? So set your goals accordingly. But what you can get done in a decade with long obedience in the same direction, you're not doing it, God's doing it through you is incredible.   Laura Dugger: I just wanted to let you know, there are now multiple ways to give when you visit TheSavvySauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled Support. Our mailing address is also provided if you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible. [00:39:14]    Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com today. Thanks for your support.   These examples are so helpful. I love practical examples because it helps me envision how to begin applying what I want to put into practice after a conversation like this one. My husband, Mark, and I will oftentimes reflect and look back on times that have been transformational in our lives. Typically, it's from practical application, you have to apply it, that leads to transformation. So, Jordan, will you give us maybe three to five habits or time savers or general best ways to steward our time?   Jordan Raynor: Oh, man, I'd love to. Honestly, the biggest one for me I've already shared, which is just taking control of when you check your messages. I cannot stress that enough. [00:40:19]    Let me give you a couple others. One, you want to do your most exceptional work, you've got to be getting a seven to eight-hour nightly sleep opportunity. The easiest way to practically do it is to just set a consistent bedtime. Most people have a fixed time at which they wake up, so it's simple math, right? Subtract from that, go back eight hours, that's your bedtime.   Gosh, you might not like the science. Trust me, I don't like the science, but the science is settled on this one. Most, 99% of human beings need seven to eight hours of sleep at night. That's a game-changer for me.    Honestly, weekly Sabbath has been a game-changing habit for me and my family that I think has made us much more productive in our goals.    I'll give you another one. Do one new thing at a time. In your work, in your life, you probably have a lot of recurring responsibilities based on work that you've created over the years. [00:41:19] With whatever time you have left over, the worst mistake, in my experience, that you can make is to try to do five new initiatives at once. You do one new thing at a time until it's done, and then when it's done, you move on to the next thing.    I'm trying to think of some other ones from the book. Yeah, I'll say this one. This is one of my favorite practices. It takes two seconds to start, but again, it takes a lot of courage. Quit the news cold turkey and let your friends curate the news for you. Why? How is this connected to time management, people ask me?    It could not be more relevant because all of this external noise is creating a lot of internal noise that blocks your ability to be loving, to think, to be creative, and listen to the voice of God. I know because I was the ultimate news junkie until eight years ago when I quit cold turkey. You know what happened when I quit cold turkey? Nothing. Nothing negative happened. [00:42:21]    What did happen is my friends started telling me about everything that I cared about, voluntarily. They have no idea they're doing this, but they're bringing me this. I spot-check from time to time. I'll go to CNN.com and say, did I really miss anything? Nope. 99% of the news is still totally irrelevant to my life and work. Great. Man, that's been a game-changer for me, Laura.   Laura Dugger: I did love that one about let your friends curate the news for you. Just one other follow-up. I want to circle back to the quarterly. Just as we're talking about practical application, how can someone start doing, if that's their first goal is to maybe plan something quarterly? How do you have a system in place to revisit these things every 90 days and what does that look like?   Jordan Raynor: That's a great question. I take a quarterly retreat. Ideally, this is for at least one night. Sometimes when things are really crazy, I just have to take a day to go do it. In that quarterly retreat, I'm doing a few things. [00:43:20]    First, I am just journaling the game that God has already produced in my work, the good things He's already done over the last three months.   Two, I'm just taking time to worship Him and praise Him for that. Remember that not only did I not deserve anything for the last three months, I certainly don't deserve anything over the next three months. It's putting me in this humble position of recognizing that the only thing I deserve is death due my sin. God has given me Christ and way more, and that puts me in a much healthier heart position to dream about what's next.    Then third step, I just journal off the top of my head without looking at any prompts what I think is most important over the next three months. I don't look at my to-do list because what's most important should be readily apparent to me. I shouldn't have to look at anything, right?    Number four, I review journal entries from the last 90 days as well as my to-do list to refine that journal entry about what I thought was most important. Maybe I forgot, oh yeah, Jordan, you're releasing a book in the next quarter. [00:44:25] We got to get ready for that or six months from now, whatever it is.    Then five, I am taking a first stab at drafting those objectives and key results. My rule is no more than five objectives in a given quarter and no more than five key results for each objective, which could mean 25 key results.    Most of the time for me, I wind up at one to three objectives total and one to, oh man, like 10 max key results in a quarter. Most recently, I've had between one and three key results, that's it, that I'm focused on the next 90 days.   Oh, by the way, I've been crushing it. The fewer key results that I'm setting, the quicker I'm getting my goals done. The last two quarters, I've hit my goals early for the quarter and I've had to go into that someday folder and pull new things out because I've gotten everything done. That feels great. [00:45:28]    Laura Dugger: That's incredible. That does feel great to get to check that off and go to the next thing. I want to see how people can apply this, but first also, maybe Sabbath is more so something that grabbed them. So can you share just a little glimpse of what that looks like? Because you said that's one of your most impactful habits.   Jordan Raynor: Oh yeah, absolutely. Sabbath starts with work, right? You got to work hard and work well if you want to be able to rest well. Maybe helpful to think about this, I'm doing all the work for two days in one. So we have chosen to enjoy the gift of Sabbath. Notice I didn't say observe Sabbath because that connotes life-sucking legalism.    We enjoy the gift of Sabbath from Saturday dinner time until Sunday dinner time. So Saturday afternoon, we are going through our Sabbath prep checklist. That includes cleaning up the house, picking everything up so we're not distracted, packing bags and waters for church the next day, making a plan for Sabbath. [00:46:33] So who do we want to hang out with? Texting and coordinating those plans ahead of time so we're not attached to our phones on Sabbath itself, doing laundry, running the dishwasher.   And then when we get to the end, I'm sending my phone on a 24-hour vacation. So I mentioned spending two and a half hours apart from my phone each night. On Sabbath, it is on airplane mode for 24 hours.   Then we kick off Sabbath by just feasting. So Sabbath to us is... I love how Kevin DeYoung put it. It's an island of get-to and a sea of have-to. We try to do nothing on that I have to-do list and only things on that get to-do list.   So that starts a feasting on some of our favorite foods. We get takeout. So cleanup's really easy. So we're Chewy's Mexican or good Chinese food, whatever. We light a candle to kick off Sabbath so that it always smells like Sabbath in my house, which is usually pumpkin pecan waffles, even when it's like July in Florida, which makes no sense. [00:47:33]    Then Saturday night's pretty chill, watching a little bit of TV with the kids, whatever. They're going to bed. On Sunday, this is my one day a week where I sleep in. My wife sleeps in the other six days of the week. I sleep in, Kara gets up with the kids. It's the one day a week of the week where they get to watch a full-length movie, which they're super pumped about, and don't judge me, drink coffee. So they get to drink coffee on Sabbath.    My kids wake up super early, so they can finish the movie before church. On the way to church is one of my favorite traditions where we stop and get donuts on the way and the whole drive we're talking about what we're thankful for from the past week. So just looking back, what are we grateful for? And then what do we want to adore God for about His character based on what He's done and what we've seen Him do and what we're thankful for the past week?   We then go feast on the word with our church family and then come back, have lunch at the house. We don't do the lunch after church thing to us. That's a little exhausting. [00:48:31] So we come home, have lunch here.    And then Sunday afternoons are pretty chill. A lot of times we're just playing games or swimming in the pool. This past Sunday, we went for a walk and let the kids climb some trees. But just a day to slow down and catch up to our souls and just be and remind ourselves that we are loved and valued, even when we're not being productive, that our heavenly Father does not need us. He wants us to quote my friend, [Scott Jotani? 00:49:05] And man, it's been a total game-changer.    I'll end with this. I saw a mentor who I hadn't seen in years. I think this was last summer. And we were on vacation in Rhode Island. I talked to my mentor for about an hour and he texted me after I left his house and he's like, "Hey, you seem way more rested than I saw you the last five years ago." And it's not vacation rest. He called that out. He's like, "This is not vacation rest. What is this?" I was like, "It's Sabbath." He's like, "That's what I thought. That's what I thought."   People can feel it. People know when they're in the presence of somebody who is living and working out of a Sabbath rest. So I would encourage you to try it. Treat it as an experiment. Don't say, "We're going to do this for the rest of our lives. Try it for four weeks. Try it for six weeks. Give it a shot. And I think you'll be blown away at how healthy it is, both for your soul and for the goals that you're chasing after the rest of the week. [00:50:10]    Laura Dugger: Okay. Challenge accepted. So great. So then bringing this home for someone, if they need to get quiet, get with the Lord, and just see what's bubbling up for them, do you have any other recommended Scripture, places to start, or questions for reflection or anything just to point us in the right direction?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. I would just point you to the Gospels and the way of Jesus. We read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John almost exclusively for their theology and the ethic of Jesus and they certainly have a lot to say about that. But as my friend John Mark Comer has pointed out, the Gospels are also biographies of Jesus' life. And I don't know about you, but I want to redeem my time in the model of my Redeemer. He is the key to the whole thing.    By the way, even non-Christians can get on board with this. I'll tell non-Christians all the time, like, hey, Christian or not... pretty hard to dispute that Jesus was the most productive person to ever walk the earth. [00:51:09] And we know how He managed His time. And no, the Gospels don't show Him with a to-do list or a smartphone, but they show Him dealing with distractions at work. One time a guy literally dropped through the roof over Jesus' head while He was working and preaching. Unless that's happening to you, you're not more distracted than Jesus was, right?    They show Him seeking to be busy without being hurried. They show Him having to dissent from the kingdom of noise to think. And so, man, you want to redeem your time toward eternal ends? Look to the author of time, Jesus of Nazareth in the Gospel biographies.    Laura Dugger: This has been incredible to lay the foundation for our own lives, which is great to put into practice first. But as we're tying it all up to, how can we pass along this wisdom to our children?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. Number one, just talk about the biblical narrative of work and productivity that your kids are probably not hearing in Sunday school. [00:52:11] I know because I see the Sunday school curriculum. I'm an elder in our church. They're not seeing it.    Point them to Genesis 1 and 2. Point them to the fact that we worship a God who works and created us to work and be productive and redeem our time in His image. And you can do that through Genesis 1 and 2. You can fast forward to Revelation 21 and 22 and Isaiah 65 that talks about work and productivity for eternity on the new earth.   Then I do have a couple of picture books that I wrote for kids as a tool, as a resource for you to communicate the why of redeeming your time, the why of work to your kids. They're called The Creator in You, which is this artistic interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2, and The Royal in You, which is the opposite book into scripture in Revelation 21 and 22.    And my prayer for this book is that it will... your kids may not admit this to you, but if they're anything like I was as a kid, if they're anything like my kids used to be, your kids view heaven with confusion, boredom, and maybe even fear. [00:53:18] And that's tragic because God's word replaces all of that with biblical clarity, excitement, and hope.    And that's my prayer for this book, that based on God's word, it would expand the vision of kids and, frankly, grownups to view heaven in the new earth with that clarity, excitement, and hope, all to God's greater glory and our greater joy.   Laura Dugger: A worthy vision indeed. We will certainly link to those resources in the show notes. Jordan, this time has been so enjoyable, but I still have one question for you because we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah, honestly, I've shared a lot of the practical answers to that. We started the conversation theological, went practical, let's end theological. My savvy sauce lately is that I spend a lot of time thinking about where I see myself professionally in five million years, not five years like you were asked in a job interview. [00:54:30]   Because again, God's word promises that we will work free from the curse of sin. And here's why, and here's how this connects to redeeming the time. The more that I've meditated on that promise of long enjoying the work of my hands, I am far less hurried in the present.   Because I spent years, Laura, worrying about finishing my life's work, of getting it all done. I got to get past this business because I still want to do X, Y, and Z in my life, right? But knowing that I'm going to have eternity to work for God's glory, I am free from all of those burdens and just so much less hurried because here's what's going to happen.   When I die with unfinished symphonies, and all of us will die with unfinished symphonies and to-do lists, either God is number one, going to tap somebody else on the shoulder and have them pick up that work and finish it, praise God. [00:55:29] Number two, He's going to finish that work by himself with no human involvement, praise God. Or number three, when I arise from the nap that is death, God in his goodness and generosity will put that unfinished symphony back in my hands and give me the joy of finishing it free from the curse of sin, praise God.   Either way, I don't lose. If the things on my to-do list are on God's to-do list, He will finish them. And as I've thought about that and work on the new earth, it has just been radical in slowing me down and recognizing that eternity is now in session and I don't have to finish it all before I die. It's been a tremendous gift that the Lord has given me. So I would encourage our listeners to do the same.   Laura Dugger: Yes. Well, Jordan, clearly God has gifted you with being a vision caster, a visionary, a leader, and I just appreciate this conversation is oozed with your love of Kara and your daughters and our Lord and has been, like you said, theological and practical. [00:56:41] I just have learned so much. So thank you for being intentional about redeeming your time. It really is a way that you are loving others and loving God well, and I just appreciate you. So thank you for being my guest.   Jordan Raynor: Thank you, Laura.   Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.   This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.   But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:57:43] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.   Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.   Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.    So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.    If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?    First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.    Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.    Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Re-Release: God, Sex, and Your Marriage: Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery    *DISCLAIMER* This interview includes some adult themes and is not intended for young ears.   **Transcription Below**   Matthew 9:37 (NIV) "Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few."   Questions we discuss: For many couples, sex can be a difficult area of marriage and you encourage people that is normal, but you also warn us not to confuse normal with healthy. What is normal for married couples and what is healthy, as it relates to sexual intimacy in marriage? What is God's genius chemical cocktail that we experience during sex? Will you give a brief overview of your four pillars of intimacy?   Dr. Juli Slattery is a clinical psychologist, author, speaker and broadcast media professional with over twenty-five years of experience counseling, and teaching women. She's the president and co-founder of Authentic Intimacy, a unique ministry devoted to teaching God's design for intimacy and sexuality. In 2020, Juli launched SexualDiscipleship.com, a platform designed to help Christian leaders navigate sexual issues and questions with gospel-centered truth. She hosts a weekly podcast, Java with Juli, where she answers tough questions about relationships, marriage, and spiritual, emotional and sexual intimacy.  www.authenticintimacy.com    Other Episodes with Dr. Juli Slattery on The Savvy Sauce:   Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery   Patreon 26 Holy Sex with Dr. Juli Slattery   Life-Giving Marriage with Dr. Juli Slattery   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   [00:00:00]   Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    [00:00:18]   Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.   I'm grateful for today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Check them out online to place your order for dining or catering, or to fill out an application to join their friendly team. Visit cfaeastpeoria.com.   Hey friends, I wanted to share some exciting news with you. Savvy Sauce Charities has officially received our confirmation from the IRS that all donations are tax deductible. I know that we have super generous listeners, so we wanted to let you know you can now mail your check to Savvy Sauce Charities, P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois, 61561. Thanks in advance for supporting Savvy Sauce Charities. [00:01:24]    And now I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons. Dr. Juli Slattery is my returning guest today. She has written another fantastic book entitled God, Sex, and Your Marriage. And now she's going to give us a healthy vision for sexual intimacy in marriage and share actionable ways that we can grow in maturity and delight and health in our relationship with our spouse.    Here's our chat.   Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Juli.   Dr Juli Slattery: Oh, thanks so much for having me.   Laura Dugger: Well, even from the get-go on the dedication page of your book, you dedicate it to your brothers and sisters in Christ, some who have labored before you, and some who now work alongside you in reclaiming God's design for sex. You quote the last part of Matthew 9:37, when you say, "The field is ripe for the harvest, but the laborers are few." [00:02:28] Will you elaborate on what you mean by this?   Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I think within the field of Christian sexuality, there are things that we can disagree on. Some of those conversations can be characterized by looking back at what people have written before and being critical of that or looking at the ways that we disagree today on different topics and how we apply the scriptures.    So as I was wrapping up this book, I just have such a heart for unity in the body of Christ and recognize that there are so few people that really want to see God reclaim biblical sexuality, that I just want us to link arms and to work together, to learn from each other, to give honor to each other, and just to be in the trenches, like encouraging one another, instead of focusing on maybe where we differ. [00:03:25]    So that's kind of the heart of it, as well as just a gratitude for the people that have gone before us, the people that were speaking and writing on this topic over the last few decades. Again, I think we're looking back and saying purity culture was horrible and, you know, like just be with more of a critical eye, which we need to learn from the past. But I think, you know, I just really want to have a spirit of graciousness and unity as we say, Hey, we're kind of working off of the shoulders of the people who have been really pioneers in this field.   Laura Dugger: I think that goal of unity is such a worthy one. For so many couples, sex can be a difficult area of marriage. And you write that this is very normal, but you also warn us not to confuse normal with healthy. You go on to write, and I'll just quote it here, "Just consider that the normal American is overweight, overstimulated, exhausted, and lonely." [00:04:29] So, Juli, from your perspective, what is normal for married couples and what is healthy as it relates to sexual intimacy in marriage?   Dr. Juli Slattery: I would say normal is a lot of conflict around sex, frustration, unfulfilled desires, lack of communication. They don't know how to talk about sex or navigate conflict around just differences. I think it's normal for there to be some level of pornography in a marriage. One or both of the individuals bringing in a history of pornography and a struggle with pornography. I think it's normal to have a lot of confusion and shame just around being a sexual person.    So those are all sort of the normal barometer of what I see as I talk to married Christian couples. Again, I think there's peace in knowing, okay, we have good company around us. We're not the only couple struggling with these things, but I also don't want that to be a message that things should just stay the way they are. [00:05:35]    Laura Dugger: I love that. Can you elaborate then on what is healthy?   Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. So healthy is sort of the opposite of what I've mentioned. Healthy is that there's healthy, regular communication around sex. So a couple can talk about not just how often they want to have sex, but the deeper issues of what does sex represent for me as an individual? What does it represent for us as a couple? Being able to talk through things from the past, past wounds and shame, and being able to seek the Lord together. It's healthy to honor each other in their sexual relationship, honor the differences that they might be bringing of sexual desire and what they're hoping for in their sexual relationship, navigating together the challenges that they face, but navigating as a team.   So the challenges of we have no energy because we're exhausted with little kids or the challenges of one of us might be working through some trauma from the past, the challenges of how do we address the pornography in our marriage and how do we learn to enjoy each other within our own covenant? [00:06:46]    So those are kind of the markers of a healthy sex life. I don't think there are many couples who would just say automatically, we were there when we first got married. But unfortunately, I think there are also not a lot of couples who would say we're actually working towards those goals. Instead, we have a tendency to just kind of stay stuck where we are.   Laura Dugger: I think an obvious answer would be that communication is going to help us move in that direction of health. But if this healthy vision sounds wonderful, how do people actually engage in this? What are a few of the first steps they can take?   Dr. Juli Slattery: I think one of the first steps is just really broadening your horizon of what God created sex to be. And really, it's taking a step back and asking yourself the question, what do you think a good sex life is actually supposed to look like from a Christian standpoint? [00:07:45]    I think it's fascinating for couples to have that conversation and, first of all, to see where they differ in their understanding of what a good sex life is meant to be, but also where they struggle to flesh it out because there just hasn't been a lot of great teaching on, how do we as a couple even have the same goals related to our sex life.   That was the main reason why I wrote God, Sex, and Your Marriage was to give Christian married couples a vision for what God created sex to be and to have them together agree on, here's what our mature sex life is meant to look like and we want to start working toward that. But if you don't know what you're working toward, then you're just going to stay stuck.   Laura Dugger: I appreciate resources like this. If anybody's listened to any of our other topics on sexual intimacy on The Savvy Sauce, you know that we recommend reading a book, ideally with each other. But even if it's just you reading it yourself, there's so much to glean. [00:08:49] And like you said, Juli, you're casting this vision.   But then even as you read this aloud to one another or you each read a chapter and then come together and discuss, it gets you comfortable talking about this language and it brings up even more questions like you just mentioned that can be natural conversation starters.   Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, that's a great suggestion for every married couple, including myself and my husband. I guess something that we've tried to do throughout our marriage is to be reading a book on sex together, preferably, as you mentioned, out loud, because it really does get you comfortable in terms of just what language to use and what it's like to have a conversation around sex.   Laura Dugger: Absolutely. So just really, I've thought this so many times, but thank you for the labor and the work you put into putting this resource together so that we have an option that we can trust.    Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, well, I think we tend to write the books that we would want to read. So, yeah, a lot of it has just come out of our own journey. [00:09:49]    Laura Dugger: Well, and I agree with another point that you make in the book when you talk about sex being so important to God and so we can expect it to constantly be under spiritual attack. So will you just tell us more about that idea?   Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. I think the average Christian, as you look at the cultural landscape, there's no question that sex is under attack and that we see it distorted and we see it being such a confusing topic for our kids, for just our culture. We can recognize that and we can look at different ways that sex is being used against us in our world today, but we're less likely to see how that's happening within our own marriages.   But I think just being aware of the fact that Satan hates everything God made as beautiful, and sex is such a powerful picture of God's covenant love, of the fact that he created us for intimate unity. That Satan really wants to twist that. And he'll do it any way he can. [00:10:56] He'll do it through shame. He'll do it through us even having a very limited perspective of what sex should be. He'll do it through dividing you and having sex be the main source of conflict in your marriage. He'll do it through pornography and marital affairs and betrayal.    I think we have to be on the lookout and say, hey, this really is a spiritual terrain, not just in the world at large, but it's a spiritual terrain within my own heart and within our marriage.   Laura Dugger: But then you don't leave us there with that message of attack because in that same chapter you conclude with this quote: "God's power to redeem is greater than Satan's power to destroy." So, Juli, how have you seen that practically played out in couples' lives?   Dr. Juli Slattery: Boy, I've just been so blessed to see that played out over and over again. In the ministry that I run, Authentic Intimacy, we've been doing this for a decade now. [00:11:56] I can't explain it, but all I can tell you is that when an individual or a couple begins to really get God's perspective of sexuality, when they alone or together begin to surrender this area of their life to God, you just see change, you see healing, you see redemption, you see freedom where there once was shame and lies.   It's commonplace in our ministry to see that, which is amazing because every life that's redeemed really is a work of God. But the scripture says that His word doesn't return void, but it accomplishes what it's sent out to do. And I get to see that. I get to see that as couples are healing and recovering from betrayal, as people are looking to get set free from pornography, as people are trying to navigate the impact of past trauma and what that's done to their sex life, as couples are confronting some of the anger or bitterness or selfishness that have developed over the years because of their differences and sexual desire. [00:13:03] I've just gotten to see all those sort of things redeemed by God's power, and sex starts to become something that really does unify a husband and wife together.   Laura Dugger: Well, that makes so much sense because I've been convicted so many times and had to be reminded when God will gently call me back to Himself where I've shared a struggle with my husband, or if I'm questioning something in parenting and I'm just thinking on it and ruminating on it, God will gently remind me, come to Me with this, share with Me. And in the same way, with the topic of sex, you're encouraging us in this book to invite God to fight for us, and it's really His strength and power that can heal us in this sacred space.   Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. It makes so much sense, Laura. But in reality, I think most of us kind of bar God from our sex lives. We don't realize we do it, but we never praise a married couple about our sex lives.[00:14:07] We never invite God into our shame. We never even think or want to think about the fact that He's present with us in the bedroom because that sort of creeps us out.    But if you're trying to fight a spiritual battle with your own strength and you're barring God's presence from that place, then you're not going to win it. I had to confront this in my own life in marriage many years ago. I didn't realize how much I was doing that, but I think because the church has been so silent on sex over the years, we just naturally have this sort of separate category of sexuality where God doesn't enter. So, boy, what a powerful thing to begin surrendering this to the Lord and asking for His wisdom and His help.   Laura Dugger: Powerful indeed. I remember one wife shared with me they don't pray together about sex out loud, but she has prayed before, even when they're in the act, and just shared real-time, Okay, Lord, I'm having a really hard time experiencing orgasm, and I would love to experience that today, so can you help me get there?" [00:15:16] And she said the results have been incredible. And I just think He cares so much about every detail of our lives that I love that story and what she shared because I think it shows His heart that He wants to share delight with us, and He's created this.   Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, it brings God honor and pleasure when a married couple enjoys sex to the fullest because that's what He created it for. I think somehow we've bought this lie that God's embarrassed of our sexuality or it's a necessary evil, instead of it being something that we clearly see in the Song of Solomon and Proverbs chapter 5 and other places in Scripture that God delights in this. He created sex for this purpose.   And part of fighting the spiritual battle that we face in our world is reclaiming the ground of what sex looks like in our marriage. And so there are a lot of people who are frustrated at what's happening to their kids or what's happening to our culture, but at the same time they don't fight for godly sexuality within the space of their own bedroom. [00:16:22] And that really is where the battle begins, is in our own hearts and our own lives.   Laura Dugger: Well, let's now discuss the four pillars of intimacy, and hopefully you can just give a brief overview of each. Beginning with faithfulness and specifically, why do you write that holy jealousy is good?   Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. If I can back up just for a minute, the whole premise of this book is that God created sex within marriage to be a form of revelation. Like through marriage and sexuality, the Scripture says God is revealing to us what his covenant love is like. And we see that in the Old Testament in God's covenant relationship with Israel and how often He used language of marriage and sexuality as a metaphor to explain His love for Israel.    Then in the New Testament we see the same thing happen with Jesus' relationship with the church. We see all this bridal language, intimacy language, sexual language to express what covenant looks like between Christ and His bride. [00:17:35] And I know for a lot of people that's sort of a mind shift, but if you can think about it this way, God creates the physical world in order to reveal Himself to us. So God has created marriage and sexuality as a form of revelation to reveal for us this special relationship of covenant.   So what I did with these four pillars of covenant love is say, OK, if God's love, if His covenant love is like this, then this is what defines a healthy sex life. So I broke down these four aspects of God's love for His covenant people and then applied it to sexuality.    So the first pillar that I talk about there is faithfulness. That faithfulness is the very foundation of any covenant. That a covenant isn't a relationship that's based on what feels good or what I feel like doing in the moment. It's a relationship based on your character, on your promise.    Part of that is that within covenant you have a sacred sense of belonging to each other. And so there is a holy jealousy within covenant. [00:18:43] And we see this in God's relationship with Israel where God actually says, My name is jealous. I am jealous for you. I'm a jealous God. And when you worship other gods, I'm angry.    That seems to be true within the covenant of marriage, that sexually we belong to each other exclusively, and there should be a healthy anger, protectiveness, and even jealousy if that exclusivity isn't honored. So, Laura, for example, I was talking to a woman who her marriage was in bad shape. There had been conflict over many years, there had been pornography addiction, and her husband cheated on her. And she said, "I was so dead that I wasn't even angry. My love for him was so dead that I didn't even get mad." [00:19:43] You'd be like, "Why would she not get mad? Is that a sign of health to not get mad when your husband cheats?" No. That's a sign of a very dysfunctional relationship, of a covenant that's dead.    So a healthy marriage means that we fight for each other and we protect our sexual relationship and that if there is a violation, then there is reason to be upset,there is reason to be angry. I think this is so key that we talk about you really can't build anything else in your sex life if you don't have faithfulness. That's the bare minimum foundation.   Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsors.    [00:20:25]   Sponsor: I want to say thank you to our longtime sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. I hope that you've already downloaded the Chick-fil-A app. Because did you know that with the app you can skip the line and have food ready for you when you arrive? This is one of my favorite options when I'm taking my four daughters to Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Download the Chick-fil-A app today and start earning points toward free rewards that are fully customized to your preferences and tastes.   Chick-fil-A was named as one of Glassdoor's best places to work in the nation. That's a huge honor. And one team member even wrote, "No comparison. This is a great job for a first job, extra money, or for career advancement. Such a loving environment, great management, and fair pay." Chick-fil-A believes that the local and involved ownership ensures fostering an environment where you are known, challenged, and cared for.   So if you're looking for a wonderful place to work, visit Chick-fil-A East Peoria or fill out an application online today at cfaeastpeoria.com.    [00:21:31]   Laura Dugger: We are so excited to celebrate with you that The Savvy Sauce Charities received our IRS confirmation that all donations are officially tax deductible. We hope that you're going to take action to partner with us.   There are details laid out on our website, which is thesavvysauce.com, and they're going to walk you through the process to donate, and it's also going to share our tax ID number. The donation process is as easy as just filling out a check for Savvy Sauce Charities and mailing it to P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois, 61561.    If we've contributed to your life in any way by resourcing you to grow closer in intimacy with God and others, would you now contribute to us financially? In this way, we are so excited to partner together and hopefully meet each other's needs. Our team wants to continue producing these podcasts, and we're expectant that if you're listening right now, you value The Savvy Sauce Charities enough to make a donation.    We view this work as ministry, so we happily spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes. And our ultimate prayer is that your experience with Savvy Sauce Charities will make an impact for eternity. So if that is true for you, if you've ever received a blessing in any way from this nonprofit, would you prayerfully consider donating to Savvy Sauce Charities? Any amount is greatly appreciated.   And in fact, you've heard me say before, if every listener gave only $1 per month, it would completely offset all our costs. Again, we have all the details listed on our website, thesavvysauce.com, if you are interested in making a donation. We look forward to partnering with you.   [00:23:32]   Laura Dugger: Can you elaborate about the chemical cocktail and why God is so genius in this creation?   Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, sure. You know, I think one of the reasons that we really struggle with faithfulness is because we believe at a heart level that marriage is more about attractiveness and getting our sexual needs met than believing that marriage is about covenant. And one of the ways that I explain that is just to show, you know, God has designed new sex and a new relationship to elicit different kinds of chemicals in our brain than a long-term relationship and long-term sexual interaction.   So the new relationship is going to have adrenaline and a neurotransmitter called PEA. And together, adrenaline and PEA make you feel like there's this huge output of dopamine, which is the pleasure hormone of the brain. [00:24:34] And so it makes you feel intoxicated. It makes you feel like you're on a drug.    This is why pornography is so addictive. But God has given that cocktail in the beginning of a relationship, in the beginning of seeing each other naked for the first time, so that it would be a cementing kind of experience for a husband and wife. Unfortunately, our world has really hijacked that with pornography and other sexual offerings. But God's design is that you shouldn't be able to forget your honeymoon. Like it should be like a cementing experience for you.   But then as you're married for a while and you have sex regularly, you don't get that same adrenaline and PEA unless you're doing something kind of fun or new or exciting. But in general, you'll get just kind of output of oxytocin, which is a bonding hormone. It connects you to your spouse. And you also get endorphins, which is sort of a feel-good, all-is-well-with-the-world kind of neurotransmitter. [00:25:39]    And so God has designed a married sex life to have elements of both of these, of new and exciting things, say, for example, on your anniversary or you go away for a vacation and you're really focusing on your sex life, but also to have these bonding and feel-good chemicals to take place just in the normal course of life.    But, Laura, what happens is we get addicted to that new and exciting, and so we kind of begin to neglect the sexual relationship and instead are tempted by what's going to make us immediately feel good in the moment. So that's kind of just understanding how God wired our sexuality and, again, why He's a genius, but also understanding how, if we're not wise, that wiring can be worked against us.   Laura Dugger: That's so helpful to be wise in all of that. Just the incredible amounts that He gives us. You had cited another source that says men can have their oxytocin levels raised more than 500% after orgasm. [00:26:49] That may be why they're able to open up more emotionally after they've connected sexually. You also talk about the bonding agent of vasopressin. Would you like to share anything about that?   Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. So the two hormones, oxytocin and vasopressin, kind of go together. Vasopressin is kind of more, from what I understand, like the male form of oxytocin. But these hormones have been shown, as you mentioned, to bond people together, to make a man feel more connected and more likely to be vulnerable.    And interestingly, there's even some studies that show that a man whose body is rich with this oxytocin and vasopressin is less likely to be attracted to another woman. So some people will call it the fidelity hormone.   But when you begin to understand this as a wife, that regular sex with my husband is helping him feel emotionally closer to me, is fostering vulnerability and connection, is helping him to focus on me and me to focus on him, it helps with temptation that comes from the outside. [00:28:02]    And that's not at all to put pressure on a wife to say it's your job to keep your husband faithful. But it is to recognize that God has created sex to be a very powerful experience that is meant to bond you together. And you want to use that for the advantage of your marriage instead of allowing the enemy to use it as something that could tear you apart.   Laura Dugger: That's so good. There's so much there in that first pillar of faithfulness. But for the second pillar of intimate knowing, what separates that intimate knowing from what you call a sanctified hookup?   Dr. Juli Slattery: I think, again, we have to go back to God's covenant love to understand what we're working towards. And if you have been in a covenant relationship with God through Jesus Christ for any amount of time, hopefully you've learned that one of the goals of your relationship with God is to know Him more intimately, to say, Hey, I know God and Jesus more intimately today than I did five years ago. [00:29:07] And through the struggles of life, through the highs and the lows, I've developed intimacy with the Lord.   Jesus talks about this when he talks about, you know, being so intimately connected to Him, it's like a vine in a branch. Like we're in communion all the time. So when we apply that to our sexual relationship, the goal of sex is not just to have our bodies exchange fluids, but it's to be on a journey together of deep knowing of sharing with each other.   Just like in our relationship with God, the valleys, the difficulties, actually are when intimacy can be forged even greater than when things are going well. And I think this is really important because for most married couples, they're going to experience some real challenges in their sex life.   Dr. Juli Slattery: challenges in their sex life and instead of just saying, well, we can't enjoy each other or we have different desires, looking at that as an opportunity of, how do I know my spouse more intimately because of the challenge that we're experiencing? [00:30:12]    When I work with couples who are going through difficulties like infertility or somebody's struggle with pornography or somebody's struggle with healing, what those couples will say is now we're beginning to talk at a deeper level than do you want to have sex or not. Now, we're talking about my shame underneath my sexuality or my frustration that I walked into marriage with these expectations and now I feel like they're not being met. So you're beginning to communicate about your heart, you're beginning to share the sexual journey.   Unfortunately I think there are a lot of married couples who don't see this. All they think of is sex. It's just what our bodies are doing instead of really looking at it as an opportunity to forge intimacy at a much deeper level.   Laura Dugger: The third pillar is sacrificial giving. I'd love for you to share your personal story about God calling you to sacrificial giving. [00:31:15]    Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. One of the things that I've shared in my own life is that I'd say for the first 10 or 15 years of marriage, sex was one of those things that I wasn't very interested in, my husband was more interested in and particularly when we had three little boys running around the house, you know, I really avoided sex. I really didn't want to engage with it. I would always look for sort of the opportunity in the evening to say, “Hey, I need to do my devotions. This is my time.”    I remember going through that period of marriage where I would spend time with God usually in the evening and there would be times where it was like the Lord was really asking me, like if you really want to love Me and serve Me, why haven't you surrendered this area of your life to me?   And He began to just really prompt me to look at what it is to say, how do I love my husband sexually? How do I look at the conflict that I have within my own heart around sexuality and really begin to ask the Lord to heal that and to help me to enjoy what He has given me in marriage? [00:32:27] But during that season it was a lot of, how do I lay aside my own agenda and really understand my husband's sexual drive? How do I understand what would please him?    And Laura I just think a lot of us go into marriage and we think the sexual aspect of marriage will be something that won't require anything from us, that we just get to get, we get to receive. And for sure God has designed us to receive sexually, but He's also designed us so that we have to give sexually.   Why would he do that? Like people are like, why is God so cruel to make sex so difficult to navigate? But what God began to show me is He wants me to learn to love as Christ loves. Christ's love for us has always been sacrificial. And our love for Him in covenant is called to be sacrificial. We're called to lay down our own lives and take up the cross and follow Him. [00:33:30]    So I think there's something beautiful when we begin to understand that part of a healthy sex life is both the husband and wife approaching this with the attitude of, how do I serve you? How do I love you well? And when a husband and wife both have that attitude, the level of intimacy and even the level of pleasure has such a greater capacity than when we approach sexuality with just the mindset of what can I get from it.   Laura Dugger: Will you go even a little bit more specific with one of those quiet times with the Lord? What were you praying about? And what did he lead you to do?   Dr. Juli Slattery: So I was praying, you know, Lord, I just really want to know how to love You more and serve You. Like it was a time in my life where the Lord really was calling me deeper. What I just felt the Lord prompting me to do is to initiate sex with my husband.    I remember just kind of arguing with God in that moment, like, this is my time with You. You know, I think sometimes when we spend time with the Lord and we're studying the scripture, He wants us to actually put the Bible down and walk out what He's called us to do in his scripture. [00:34:45] And it was during that season of life again where God was just prompting me.   That night, that evening was the first time just prompting me like, hey, if you want to love Me more, if you want to know what My love is like, then go up and engage with your husband, because he's the one I've given you to love and he's the one I've given to love you. That really started us on a journey that didn't happen immediately, but over years of really surrendering this to God, we've learned what it is to serve each other and love each other well sexually.   Laura Dugger: And I'll just paraphrase from page 108 when that evening you sheepishly shared with your husband, when you came up and kind of surprised him and just said, "I was praying and it was like, God told me to come up here and initiate sex with you." And I love his response. He said, "No way! I was praying, asking God to tell you to do that." [00:35:44]    Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, that's a true story. That really happened. So yeah, it's amazing how God works.   Laura Dugger: I love that so much. I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit TheSavvySauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Hinrichsen from Episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand new website for SavvySauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product.So I hope you check it out.    There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. [00:36:45]    You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible, so that you can support the work of SavvySauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com.    I just appreciate those personal stories, even how when you were meeting with the Lord, having your quiet time, how He called you to go and seek your husband. There's a part of Matthew 5:23-24, that illustrates this as well. It just says, "Therefore, if you're offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them. Then come and offer your gift."   I just appreciate how the Lord even values that horizontal relationship first and the restoration there, and then you come back and reconnect vertically as well. [00:37:49]    Dr. Juli Slattery: Boy, it's true. Like that's the living out of our love for a God, for sure. There's also scripture that talks about like, if you say that you love Me, but you're not loving your brother, then your love for me isn't genuine. So I'm paraphrasing there. But you know, the scripture that I think has really gotten me over the years that I don't think many people apply to sexuality, is when Jesus is teaching at the Sermon on the Mount, and He says, even pagans know how to be kind to those who are kind to them. Like even pagans know how to greet those who greet them. But I say to you, love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you.    Not that my husband is my enemy, or was persecuting me, but the attitude of even a pagan wife knows how to love her husband well, when he's doing everything she wants, when he's attractive to her, when he's bringing her flowers, when he's attentive. But it requires the supernatural love of God for us to reach inside of ourselves and love in a way that is sacrificial. [00:39:01]    God wants us to become great lovers. He wants us to learn to love like He loves. And that's not a natural love that the average husband or wife can accomplish on their own strength. It's something that comes through intimacy with God and through saying, Lord, I want to become more like you in every area of my life. And again, our sexual relationship is not excluded from that. It perhaps can be the most challenging and vulnerable aspect of showing us how to love like God loves us.   Laura Dugger: Just one more thing to draw out of your chapter. I appreciated your balance between encouraging us to ask ourselves, are we being a cheerful giver? Then you also quote our mutual friend, Michael Sytsma, who is a pastor and also a certified sex therapist and author and speaker, that he says, the Bible does talk about fasting, but speaks far more about the feasting. [00:40:06]    Dr. Juli Slattery: Dr. Sytsma is just a wealth of wisdom on this topic. I've learned a lot from him. And that really sort of ushers in that fourth pillar of covenant love. So we've covered faithfulness, intimate knowing, sacrificial giving, but the fourth pillar is passionate celebration.    God has designed sex to be a passionate celebration of our covenant with each other. It is the way in our bodies that we remember, and we rejoice together that we've covenanted our lives to one another. God created sex to be pleasurable. He created the climax, He created the dopamine centers in our brain that go off with great delight when we experience sex with each other.    This is an important pillar. If you're looking at your sex life, and you say, okay, we're faithful to each other, and we're building intimate knowing, and I have a servant attitude, but I experienced no pleasure, then something's wrong with your sex life. [00:41:10] That's something that you need to work toward as an individual and as a married couple. There are a lot of Christian women who would identify with that, who would say, yeah, I do this primarily for my husband. I don't really love it. I don't really know how to enjoy it.    I would say to that woman that that's not the fullness of what God has designed for your sex life to look like in a marriage. He may be challenging you as he's challenged me over the years to really work on what does it look like for me to enjoy this gift, not just to be a giver of it, but also to be a receiver of it.   Laura Dugger: If anybody has their book, I'm thinking specifically, there is this part on page 133, where you draw out some fascinating discoveries about passionate celebration even in our relationship with the Lord, what that looks like, but how that transfers to the marriage as well. [00:42:10] Just things that we wouldn't think of: prayer and singing releasing certain bonding hormones.   Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah. Yeah. So when you think about like our gatherings as a church body on Sundays or whenever you gather, what you're doing is you're gathering as part of the Bride of Christ. Usually we think of our Sunday services about the message. Yeah, the message is an important part, but it's not the most important part of our gathering. Our gathering is to express our love to our Savior and to our husband, to our heavenly Father, to all of it. We're rejoicing in Him. We're worshiping him as a collective group.    And what the research has shown is that when people gather together and they sing together out loud and when they dance, the same kind of chemicals are released in their brain as are released during sex. So they're getting the dopamine, they're getting the endorphins, they're getting the oxytocin. [00:43:15]    So when God's people get together and sing together and worship the Lord together, they're actually getting that same bonding hormone that unites you as the family of God, as a husband and wife would get together as they celebrate their covenant. So it's been really cool for me to study and to see these parallels of what God designed His relationship with us to be like, and then also what He designed marriage to be like. And to see that in many ways, even our bodily and neurological response will mirror each other.   Laura Dugger: It's just incredible to learn more about those relationships. Juli, as we seek to apply this conversation now to our own lives, what's an example of a possible next step forward?   Dr. Juli Slattery: Yeah, I think, Laura, a lot of us as married Christians, we think about biblical sexuality in terms of morality. In other words, let's keep the rules, let's obey God. And as we talked about in the faithfulness pillar, that certainly is a very critical part of how we honor God and each other within our sexual relationship. [00:44:30]    But the other pillars are all about maturity. I think you can be married for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, 30 years or more as a married couple and never considered, what does it look like for us to mature in our sexual love? How can we say five years from now that we love each other more deeply sexually than we than we do right now? What do we need to work on? Which of these four pillars requires our immediate attention?    The book God, Sex, and Your Marriage can be helpful. We also are releasing a video curriculum and workbook for couples to go through this material that can be really helpful that you could do as couples or do in a small group. But things don't change unless we become intentional about changing them.    And so, you know, I think for all of us, we need that challenge to not just settle for the way things are, but to really ask the Lord to begin redeeming sex within our marriage, again, as part of that larger spiritual battle of reclaiming God's design for sex within our world. [00:45:42]    Laura Dugger: If part of this plan of ours for intentionality includes learning more from you, where can we go to do that?   Dr. Juli Slattery: You can find everything that we do at AuthenticIntimacy.com. So there's a podcast, blog, this book and other books and workbooks and small group opportunities. So you can find all of that at our website, Authentic Intimacy dot com.   Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to that, as always, in the show notes for today's episode. Juli, you have been on multiple times, so you know we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce? [00:46:26]    Dr. Juli Slattery: Well, I would have to go back and listen to the episodes I've been on before to see if I say the same one all the time. But my savvy sauce is just really spending time with the Lord and really trying to make sure I reserve that first hour of the day for connection with Him, for surrendering to Him, learning from Him, just wanting to do what he calls me to do. So that's my savvy sauce right there.   Laura Dugger: Well, you are always a calm and steady and helpful guest. As we opened this discussion, we talked about that passage from Matthew 9:37, where Jesus is saying the field is ripe for the harvest, but the laborers are few. So I just want to say thank you for being a willing and skilled helper. I'm so grateful to get to have you as my returning guest.   Dr. Juli Slattery: Oh, Laura, thank you. Thanks for giving me a chance to share. It's always a joy to talk to you. [00:47:31]    Laura Dugger: Likewise.    One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.   This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.   But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.   Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:48:31] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.   Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.    So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.    If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:49:31] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?    First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.    Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.    Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:50:36] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

254. Raising Healthy Children with Dr. Charles Fay   2 Chronicles 20:12b (NIV) "We do not know what to do, but our eyes are on you.”   **Transcription Below**   Questions and Topics We Discuss: When it comes to helping our child find purpose in life, what are some helpful questions to ask and why is this even important? What are some specific examples of beneficial discipline for a variety of ages of children? What are natural and proactive ways we can improve mental health in ourselves and our children? Charles Fay, PhD, is an internationally recognized author, consultant, and public speaker. He is also president of the Love and Logic Institute, which became part of Amen Clinics in 2020. Millions of educators, mental health professionals, and parents worldwide have benefited from Dr. Fay's down-to-earth solutions to the most common and frustrating behaviors displayed by youth of all ages. These methods come directly from years of experience serving severely disturbed youth and their families in psychiatric hospitals, public and private schools, homes, and other settings. For more information, visit loveandlogic.com.   Dr. Fay's Book, Co-Authored with Dr. Daniel Amen: Raising Mentally Strong Kids   Dr. Amen's Website   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank   Connect with The Savvy Sauce Our Website, Instagram or Facebook    Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   ** Transcription**   [00:00:00]   Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   [00:00:18]   Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.    My guest for today is Dr. Charles Fay, and he's the current president of the Love and Logic Institute. We're going to discuss various questions about parenting, so we'll cover things that are related to beneficial discipline, brain health, and the balance of pursuing quality time with our children, while also not forgetting to include a wise amount of breaks.   Many of these insights can be found in this book that Dr. Fay co-authored with Dr. Daniel Amen, and it's entitled Raising Mentally Strong Kids.    Here's our chat. [00:01:20]    Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Dr. Fay.   Dr. Charles Fay: Thank you so much. I feel so blessed to be here. Thank you, everyone who's watching and listening. We're so thankful for you.   Laura Dugger: Well, I know that many people are already familiar with you and even your family of origin, but will you just tell us a bit about your family and the work that you get to do?   Dr. Charles Fay: Well, I'm so blessed by having two parents who were really imperfect people who had wonderful hearts. They were always trying to get better. That's one of the messages I want to send to people is that it's not about being perfect. None of us are, none of us can't be, and none of us have to be. That's really the good news. That's the gospel right there. [00:02:08] So we want to kick back and relax and enjoy our time together here.    My family, my father, Jim Fay, was unhappy with how well he was doing with students in his role as an educator. And he wasn't real happy with his parenting. So he went on a desperate search, I'd say, for skills. This was when I was a kid. And I've got some grades. That was a while ago.    But he developed with Dr. Foster Cline, a love of logic approach. I want to give you two pivotal foundational ideas right off the bat that will, I think, take the pressure off of you as a parent and help you raise really great kids.   Our first rule of love and logic is that we take really good care of ourselves. One of the ways we do that is by setting limits without anger, lecture, threats, or repeated warnings. But let's see, if our kids are going to grow up to be really strong and healthy and loving people, they cannot treat us like doormats. [00:03:14] That's not going to work for them. And it's not going to work for you. So it's not selfish, in fact, it's very loving to take good care of yourself by setting limits.    The research is clear. Kids who have limits are happier. Now, they might not be happier in the short term. They might be mad at you in the store or call you the worst mom or dad in the world. But long term, they're happier and they have much less anxiety because limits equal safety. Limits equal love.    Laura and I are going to talk about limits as we go through this podcast, but I just want to throw out that main idea, that that you... you know, our obligation to them is to put ourselves first in a loving way so that we have energy to be able to parent them well.    Now, the second idea that I want to share with you is that when a kid causes a problem, this is rule number two, when a kid causes a problem or they encounter a problem that is not a life and death issue, hand it back. [00:04:16] The great parent, the beautiful, wise parent is asking with empathy, Oh, honey, you forgot to do your assignment, and now, you know, you're calling me and asking me what I'm going to do. If any kid can handle this, you can. What do you think you're going to do?   Oh, my coach won't let me play. That's heartbreaking. I know how much you care about this. Notice the empathy first. And then this question. What do you think you're going to do? What do you think you're going to do? I want you to memorize that, parents, right now. Write it down. What do you think you're going to do?    And it's asked with sincerity and with love, and of course, we're going to follow up with some ideas for the kid, but we're not going to own it. We're going to let them own it. Because there's another very clear piece of research that's come out after all these decades of love and large teaching that the perils of helicopter parenting. [00:05:25]    We've been preaching that for years. We've been teaching that for years. Don't rescue your kids unnecessarily. Only do it when they really need it, because kids who are rescued come to believe that they need rescue and they're terrified throughout life. "Oh, no. How am I going to handle life? I've never really had to deal with problems before."    See, and now the research is very clear that the helicopter parenting to over-rescue where we don't allow kids to own and solve their problems is strongly associated with high levels of depression and anxiety in adulthood. So, again, isn't it interesting, Laura, that a lot of the things that we do as parents where we think, oh, gosh, I feel kind of bad because, you know, I'm putting myself first or I feel kind of bad because I expected my kid to solve this problem.    You know, we feel guilty. We are like, oh, no, maybe I'm a bad parent because they got really upset about that. [00:06:27] It's interesting that a lot of times when we feel that way, we're actually doing exactly what's required to help our kids have the most joyful and productive lives and be able to see the value. I'm going to be really clear here, the value of handing over their lives to the Lord. Lord, I need you. I can't control everything. I mean, we want this. But isn't it interesting, isn't it interesting that we often feel guilty when we do those things?   Laura Dugger: But I think you're just illustrating so well not leaning on our own understanding. You brought up these tensions. I want to zero in on that because there are some tensions in parenting where, on one hand, we do want to pursue quality time with our children, and we know that's important, and we need to pursue breaks and rest as the caretaker. How do you manage tensions like that? Or I'll just name one more, the tension of embracing both firmness and kindness. [00:07:35]    Dr. Charles Fay: If you have that tension, parents, if you have that tension where you're like, oh, I know I should be firm and kind, but I can't find that sweet spot, where is that sweet spot? Okay, I don't know if this is encouraging to you, but I haven't found that sweet spot.    Or you're thinking, where's the balance between quality time and authentic, intimate relationship with our kids and also saying, Okay, my turn. I need a break. Where's that sweet spot? Oh, I'll find it someday. Never found it.   Now, I've talked to a lot of people over this, and there are a lot of tensions in life, and many of them are spiritual tensions. The reality is, it's really good for us to have those. When you feel that tension, you're probably somewhere in the right spot. [00:08:36] It's the people who don't experience the tension that are problematic. It's a parent who never thinks, oh, maybe I should spend a little time taking care of myself. They're just totally idolizing their kids, and they do everything for their kids. That's really problematic. Or, on the other side, the parent who thinks, oh, the kids will raise them well. They're bright kids. They never worry about it.    Again, I just want to be completely frank with you and authentic, honest. You're going to have that tension, and sometimes you're not going to quite get it right. Sometimes you're going to be maybe a little firmer than you should be, and other times you're going to be a little kinder than you should be, or more loving than you should be, or soft than you should be. You're going to make those mistakes. There's going to be a dynamic tension forever between these things. [00:09:36] The good news is, isn't it great that we're not running the show?    Laura Dugger: Absolutely.   Dr. Charles Fay: If we had to be perfect, and God wasn't in control, what a disaster that would be, right? We have a sovereign, all-knowing, all-loving God of the universe, creator, sovereign creator, and sustainer of the universe who's taking all of this and working it together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Let's rest in that.   Laura Dugger: I think that's very much the word that's coming through is rest and trusting in Him. But when it comes to maybe even to those actionable moments, if a parent can't discern when they're going too much to one of those sides, do you have any questions for self-reflection or practical examples? [00:10:46]    Dr. Charles Fay: Well, you go to a friend of yours, and you go to people you really trust, godly people you really trust, and you ask them, be honest with me, what do you see in my life? You go to people who your kids are relating to, teachers, coaches, and you ask them to be honest with you. And you make it easy for them to be honest with you, which means that if they share something that's a little painful, you don't overreact, right? You don't make it hard for people to be honest with you.   So many times, we don't really have a good picture of how wonderful our kids are because we live with them all the time. Let's think about how do people who live together treat each other? It's the reality, the sad reality of it, but it's the reality, and it's a consistent historical reality, is people who are walking through the desert together, camping out every day, dealing with adversity, are not always their best when they're with each other. [00:11:59] I think my wife would agree with that.    Now, of course, I'm not saying it's okay to treat people who are close to us with disrespect or anything. Of course, we want to be preying on that and doing the very best we can to love those close people very well. But one of the ways we evaluate how well we're managing that tension is looking at how do our kids treat other people? How do they treat their teachers? How do they treat their coaches? How do they handle situations when they're away from us?    I've had so many parents come to me and say, oh, I struggle with my kids. We have power struggles, and they get snippy with me, and I get snippy with them. How does that sound like real life? But I have people, and they're all racked up. Oh, no, my kids, they're a nightmare. But the teachers say, "Oh, I wish I had 30 of your son. I wish I had..." all this sort of thing. [00:13:01]    It's so interesting in that that's really where you look. That's really where you look is how are they handling the rest of the people in their lives? And then, of course, again, we want to work on the home environment. Over the years, I've seen so many people get pretty desperate and concerned when they really have some pretty great kids out there.   Laura Dugger: That's so encouraging. Thank you, Charles. I'd love to shift gears because there's this piece that you wrote about in your book that I just loved. You were talking about us helping our children find their purpose in life. So what are some helpful questions to ask, and why is this even important?    Dr. Charles Fay: Well, first of all, it's important because people who have purpose... and I want to define purpose for everybody after I answer that question. [00:14:03] But people who have healthy purpose, true purpose, they're more joyful, they live longer, they have better relationships. It's one of those things that if you have it, you can handle just about anything.   Viktor Frankl, Holocaust, was in a Nazi death camp. He studied that, and he found that people who have a purpose, those people who were in that camp that had a purpose were the ones that could survive emotionally and actually were able to deal with that trauma better later on. You'd think none of us... I shouldn't say none of us, but very few of us can even imagine how awful that was. We can't even wrap our heads around that. But that sense of purpose can help us cope with some pretty, pretty horrible things. And that's what he was so famous for talking about, Viktor Frankl. So that's why.    So what is purpose? Purpose is making the world a better place. [00:15:11] Purpose is serving other people. Purpose is serving God. King Solomon's... this isn't in the book, by the way, but King Solomon looked for a purpose. If you're interested, look at Ecclesiastes. It's a very interesting biblical work on the search for purpose. And he tried a lot of things, gold, lots of horses, lots of wives, lots of this, lots of that, lots of fun, lots of partying, all meaningless, all a chasing after the wind. It won't get us that sense of purpose.    So what is purpose? It is serving other people. How do we do it? How do we find our purpose? So questions we ask our kids is, what do you love doing? Because our purpose comes out of our gifts. So God gave us those gifts for a purpose, okay? He gave us those gifts for a reason, to serve other people. That's the essence of servant leadership. [00:16:13] That's really what we're talking about here.    So we ask our kids, what are you really great at? We observe our kids, and we notice what their natural gifts are, and we know something is a gift. And this is how we know something is a gift, is when we engage in that activity and time goes by, we don't realize how much time has gone by because we're so into it. We love it. That's one criteria.    This is very important. One criteria for a gift is time goes by. It's so natural that we just do it. It feels effortless, and it's joyful.    Secondly, it helps other people. That's the definition of a gift. There's a lot in the book about purpose, by the way. If I tried to cover all of it right now, we'd all be confused. We'd walk away and think, wow, that was kind of neat, but I'm confused.    Love and Logic, my job has always been to oversimplify things so people could really grab a hold of them. So that's what we're going to do here. [00:17:18] So let's come in close here. We want to help our kids discover what they're naturally great at that helps other people. So let that sink into our ears. What are we naturally great at, and does that help other people?    And then we start asking our kids a series of questions. What do you love doing? What do you love doing? What would you do for free? If you could have a job doing something, what would it be? And we watch them, and we talk to teachers, and we talk to other people who know our kids well, and we identify those strengths. We're asking our kids, who is that going to serve? Who can you serve with that? How would you see yourself serving? [00:18:20]    Now, by the way, these questions we ask that are all laid out in the book are questions that we don't barrage our kids with. So we don't sit down and say, okay, let's talk about purpose, and then just barrage them with it. That's so counterproductive. No. The things like you're driving along in the car, and you're saying, "Honey, I noticed that you're really good at sewing. That really seems to be a gift. I wonder if you could use that. Can you see yourself using that to help other people, to serve other people? Who would those people be? How would you do that? That's exciting to think about."   You're just pondering these things in front of your kids. And you're not expecting them to have all this information they throw back at you. Well, Dad, I've been thinking about... No. No. Honestly, a lot of times kids don't seem like they're participating when we ask these questions. Those seeds are growing inside of their brains, inside of their hearts. [00:19:24]    And for us ourselves, a lot of times it's, what hardship have we had? What trauma have we had?  What circumstances that have been so uncomfortable for us can we take and use to serve other people? I live in Colorado, not far from Columbine High School. There were many people, many people traumatized by that shooting, horrendous event.   Many, many people, the people who were able to heal and grow from that, as strange as that sounds, it's not easy, but the people who were able to heal and move forward were the people who took that and they went out and they created something to help other people. This organization called Rachel's Challenge, and do anti-bullying. And the school has done wonderful work for many, many years. So that's an important concept. [00:20:29]    So we're asking these questions. We're listening. We're not expecting kids to have a lot of feedback they share with us, but we're writing those things down. The most important part, it was stop again, spend the lion's share of your energy focusing on their gifts. See, so often in all of our relationships, it's so easy to start focusing on what other people do wrong or what they need to do better at. Happens in every relationship. It's a tendency that human beings have.    But friends, what would happen if you could say to yourself, I'm going to spend the lion's share of my time and energy focusing on what my wife's natural gifts are, or my husband's or my kids or my neighbors or my employees. [00:21:32] Of course, that doesn't mean that we're not going to give feedback that's necessary about things they need to change or we'd like them to change.    But here's a basic principle. Build others up. Build others up in their areas of strength so that they have the courage and the strength to tackle their areas of weakness.   Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.    [00:22:05]   Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need. Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist.    That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.    Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year. And thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank.    To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org Or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.   [00:23:33]   Laura Dugger: It's interesting how you wrote about even the purpose of purpose for our kids. Just a few practical things. I'm just going to string together some lessons of yours. So from chapter two, you wrote, ultimately, your goals determine your behavior. Not that we're using this as a self-serving tool as parents. But I think there is a reality and a principle, even in scripture, I think of reaping and sowing. But encouraging our children and speaking words of life over them or over our spouse, you actually see that come out of them as well.    And as you talk about goal setting, you also write on page 48 that goal setting is also one of the best ways to develop your child's prefrontal cortex and mental strength to help set them up for success. Then you even gave one more practical tip somewhere later in the book that we can go first. We can share our purpose with our children. [00:24:43] I think this idea was just exciting to me, even with our children at young ages, that it's never too early, like you said, to plant those seeds.   Dr. Charles Fay: It's never too early. And see, when people see us having a purpose and a passion, they want to join along. Years ago, when I was learning to be a public speaker, I studied people. And I noticed that some of the people that I was most excited about listening to weren't that great of speakers. I mean, they stuttered a little bit, and they wore a bad suit, and they just were kind of nervous at times. But man, there's something about them where I was like, That dude is awesome. Man, I want to listen to that lady, you know, again. I want to... you know, so-and-so.    And then there'd be other people who were, man, they look good, they're flashy. Oh, yeah, they got all the right-hand movements, all that sort of stuff. But I thought, no, that's kind of not... just not... And I analyzed that for years, decades.    Somebody said it loud and clear to me. I was talking to a friend of mine, he says, "It's the people who have passion. People have a sincere purpose, and we're drawn to that. It's that authenticity. It's the realness. It's this person really believes this, and they're so excited about it that they just can't stand it. It's just jumping out of them. [00:26:10]    And so when we model that... and it can be about anything. Okay, so let's say I'm a garbage collector. I drive the garbage truck. I am so excited about the fact that if it wasn't for me, people would die of disease. This place would be a mess, you know? And kids see that, and they're like, "My dad has purpose. My mom has purpose.   You could be a heart surgeon. You could be a brain surgeon. You could be a garbage collector. You could be anything. But having that deeper purpose and communicating that, talking about it around our kids, letting them overhear it, super powerful.   Laura Dugger: This is a very proactive conversation, planning these ideas. I think of something else that would be really helpful to be proactive or to pre-decide would be wise ways to discipline. [00:27:09] So, Dr. Fay, I'm curious, do you have any specific examples of beneficial discipline for a variety of ages?   Dr. Charles Fay: Yeah Well, the first thing we need to learn as parents is how to not get pulled into arguments. Because if we can't, if our kids can argue with us, we're never going to be affected with anything else.    So parents, step one, when the kid starts to argue, don't think so hard about it. Don't try to talk sense into them. Because when we start lecturing and we start talking too much, what starts to happen is the kid thinks, "Wow, this argument is really working. Look at mom's face. I can control the tone of her voice, the color of her face, the longevity of her cardiovascular system."    And see, ironically, we're trying to control the kid, but they're really controlling us. They're getting us to say more words, get frustrated, that sort of thing. So as soon as the arguing starts, say to yourself, don't think so hard about this. [00:28:11]    The second step is just keep saying the same thing. You can pick mine. When my kids were younger. I love you too much to argue. I love you too much to argue. Now, that's discipline. See, discipline really means teaching kids the right way over the wrong way. That's basically what it's all about.   One of the fundamental aspects of discipline is being able to submit to authority figures. Now we're getting on the tough side of the road here a little bit. Your kids need to learn how to submit to you. This is not a democracy in this home. I don't say that to the kids. I'm saying it to you. We do it through action.   The effective parenting style is not a democratic where everybody gets to vote and we have debates about things. Absolutely not. It is a benevolent monarchy. [00:29:11] And the parents are the rulers, but they're the kind and loving, wise rulers.    See, because if a kid argues with you, what that really means is they think they should get their way all the time. Now, ultimately, who are we preparing our kids to have? Well, who are we preparing our kids to submit to for Christians? A political figure? Somebody who lets them vote on or the king of the universe? Christ, right?    So when kids don't learn how to submit to loving authority figures, they don't learn how to submit to loving authority, life is really hard for them. That's the essence of discipline is teaching our kids how to submit to loving, just authority.   So I want my kids early on to learn that when I say something I mean it and they can't argue with me and get me to back down or get me to get frustrated. [00:30:25] So, again, could argues I say to myself, no reasoning, no discussion, no debate, no voting, right? And then I calmly repeat: I love you too much to argue on. But that's not fair. I love you. They won't give up. We just keep on doing it. They're gonna get mad. Because we all get mad when we don't get our way. Some of us aren't that honest about it. They say, oh, no, I don't. No. We all get frustrated when we don't get our way. That's called the sin nature. We all get frustrated when we don't get our way. But we're all comforted when we don't get our way.   Let me say that again. We all get frustrated when we don't get our way, but we're all are comforted in the long run when we don't get our way because our way is not always the best way. In fact many times it is. So that's one of the very first skills. I love you too much to argue or I'll listen when your voice is calm or I'll be happy to listen to your ideas as long as I feel like you're not trying to get me to back down. [00:31:37] But you keep the same one. You repeat the same little love and logic one-liner every time.   I knew a mom who just said this. "Well, I want this. You got to buy this for me." "Mmh" "Well, how come you keep saying that?" "Mmh" "Well, that's driving me crazy." "Mmh" And I'll listen when your voice is calm. But she said she loved it. It was so easy for her. All she had to do. And now the kids are teenagers, by the way, and she's been doing it for years. And she'd say, "Mmh". And they're "we know you're just gonna say 'Mmh'".   She raised kids who really love her dearly, but they didn't always like her. Okay. There's a little nugget. They didn't always love her and they didn't always like her, but they love her dearly. Let's branch out from that. [00:32:36]    Another skill is being able to set effective limits that we can follow through often. So you want our yes to be yes and our no to be no. Important parenting principle, life principle: Our yes is yes and our no is no. But how do we do that/ By focusing only on what we can control.   See, who can I control?    Laura Dugger: Me.   Dr. Charles Fay: The harsh reality is I can't really control my kids. I can't really control my wife. I really can't control the direction the country goes here or there. I mean, there are very few things I can control. Of course, I do my civic duty and I do the best that I can. But ultimately the only thing that I truly can control and this is tough even is myself, right? [00:33:30]    We call this setting limits with enforceable statements. So when I set a limit with an enforceable statement, I'm describing what I'm gonna do and what I'm gonna allow. And I am not trying to tell the kid what to do. And I'm not issuing threats. You already heard a couple of them. "I'll listen when your voice is calm. I'll be happy to take you to your friends when the chores are done. I play games when I'm not having somebody yelling at me."   I mean how many of us have played candy land with our little kids, right, and they start to lose. And now they're all upset. "You're cheating. That's not fair. You're mean." "I'll be happy to play with you as long as this is fun for me." Which is one I use a lot.   And then as soon as it's not fun for me, what happens? I get up and I go. [00:34:33] "But I'll be good." I know you'll be good and we'll try again some other time. And the other time will be pretty soon. But they need to see that there is action associated with the limit. If we want to get to the essence of discipline, let's get to it.    Essence of discipline. Number one. We have a good relationship with our kids. We love them and we show them that and we focus mostly on their strengths, and they feel bonded to us and they want to please us at heart. Relationship is part of discipline. It's teaching them the right way versus the wrong way. So that has to come first.    The second that comes first is that we set limits. We describe what we're going to do and what we're going to allow. Yeah, and they're fair limits. We do our best to be fair. And then when they don't live by those limits, we don't nag, we don't remind, we don't rescue, we take loving action. We are empathetic and we take loving action. [00:35:33]    So a dad says to me, "Oh, I went to Love and Logic years to go. My kids were totally out of control. My wife passed away when they were really young. I felt so guilty. I felt so bad for them that I let them do everything they wanted to do. Oh, they wouldn't listen to anything. They were tyrants." I said, "Oh, how are they now? Oh, they're good now. I mean, they're not perfect people, but I'm not. They're good. They're good. My daughter's turned out great."   I said, "Well, what made the difference?" He said, "I took them to Chuck E. Cheese." I said, "What?" He said, "Kids were out of control in public. Oh, that was the worst time. So I took him to Chuck E. Cheese." I thought, "I'm not getting this." He says, "No, you don't understand." I said, "I don't understand." He says, "I realized that one of the problems I had was that we'd go out and they'd act up and I'd say, "If you keep acting up we're leaving. But I never would because I'd feel too guilty." [00:36:30]    And so he said, "I decided to take him to Chuck E. Cheese because it's kind of a chaotic place. Most of the time and I thought, "I won't back down. I'll be glad to get out of this." I thought, "Well, that's kind of a wise idea there." And he says, "I took them to Chuck E. Cheese. We were actually having a good time. But then now they're starting to act up like crazy, right?" So he said to me, he said, "Guys, we get to stay as long as it's fun for me and there are no problems." And they kept up. And you know what he did? "He got up and he started walking away. And they said, "Daddy, daddy. Why are we leaving?" He says, "This is not fun. This isn't working for me."    And they didn't think he'd really follow through because he never had. But he kept walking. Pretty soon they catch up and they said, "Daddy, daddy, we just got our pizza." He said, "Don't worry about the pizza. Somebody else will get it. I love you guys. Let's go home. This isn't fun for me." [00:37:26]    They got in the car, oh, and they were crying and he felt like the worst dad in the world. He's driving along and he's just feeling so guilty. But he said to himself, "I'm going to stay strong. I'm going to stay strong." And he drove home. "Oh, and it was a miserable day," he said.    Well, he started doing that more. They went to the park one day and he said, "Guys, we get to stay as long as there's no problems, no throwing sand, no running away from me. And as long as you're staying right by me." And they tested it, didn't they?    Let's think about human beings. How far do we need to get into the Old Testament to see people start testing limits? I think it's only maybe two chapters or so. It's really not very long. That's what we do. That's what human beings do. So don't be surprised when your kids do it. So they tested the limit and he just starts saying, "Hey guys, we're going home." And he just went home. [00:38:26] No warnings, no reminders. No lectures.    See, what kind of a blessing is it for our kids if they can learn to listen the first time? Is that unreasonable? Is it because we're on a power trip or because we want them to have happy lives?    Laura Dugger: Absolutely, the second.   Dr. Charles Fay: And the whole time he says, "I'm hating it. Honestly, Dr. Fay, I just don't like it. I'm not comfortable with any of this. I feel like I'm being mean, I'm being criticized by other people." People are saying, Well, in this book it says you should never do something like that. You know, I'm getting all of that and I'm so conflicted I'm feeling the tension.    He said what changed things is we were in Home Depot not too long after these training sessions as we'll call it. I didn't have a plan at all and I needed to be there. I really couldn't leave. And they're starting to carry on with each other. And I just looked at him and I said, Oh. And the older one sent to the younger one. But they were. It blew me away. How did they learn? It'll be good by learning that my word is gold and that I was actually going to take some action. [00:39:51]    Laura Dugger: I love that. Then that goes back to the letting your “yes” be yes, and your “no” be no. It also reminds me I believe it's Hebrews 12:11. It says, "No discipline is pleasant at the time, but painful later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." I think that beautifully illustrates it.    Dr. Charles Fay: I love that verse. A harvest of righteousness and peace. Think about that. So we feel guilty for doing it, but we're actually giving our kids the most beautiful things in life through it. And you know what we're really doing when we're doing this? We're preparing for the day when our kid is about ready to do something that's really dangerous and we have no control over it. They're 17 years old, they say, "I'm going to this party. I don't care." And you're thinking, "I know that it's in a bad part of town. I know there's been shootings there. I know there's kids there's gonna be drugs there." You're thinking all these things. [00:40:57]    Are you gonna have enough respect and love in their eyes to be able to pull it off when you say, "Don't go. I'm concerned about you." Have you upped the odds for having that much strength and love in their eyes? That's what we're really going for.   Now if I've never been a loving authority figure, chances are they're going to look at me and think, "Well, what does he know? He's kind of a nice guy over here. He's kind of a tyrant over here, whatever." But they don't have that love and that discipline experience from us. That makes all the difference in the world.   Laura Dugger: Guess what? We are no longer an audio-only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. [00:42:01] We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.   All of these topics that we've touched on are covered in your book. I just want to address one more area Because we don't talk about this a lot. But you and Dr. Amen agree in your book where it says, "Mental health is really brain health." You make the argument that mental health follows a healthy brain.    If we're going specifically, it's pages 22 through 24. But can you walk us through what it means when you say "bright minds"?    Dr. Charles Fay: So it's basically an acronym. B stands for blood flow. The more blood flow, the more oxygen, the more cleansing of the brain, the more circulation going on there, obviously the better the brain is going to work. [00:43:03]    Exercise, so important. You know talking about kids, so important. There should be very strong limits over screen time, by the way. In fact, the less the better. Highly effective parents now are saying that they're really moving back towards traditional model of schooling where kids are doing things with pencil and paper. They're not on the screen all the time. They're setting firm limits where kids don't have their own phones until maybe they're older teenagers.   I mean that sounds radical, if we look at the way the rest of the world is running, right? It sounds radical. Oh my goodness. How could you possibly do that? Now, do we really want our kids to be as low-functioning as the rest of the world? Simple question, right? Do we really want that?    You know, we used to say prepare kids for the real world. No. [00:44:04] Now I say, prepare kids to be shining stars. Not the real world. Now I'm preaching. I'm sorry. I get that way.    R is rational. Thinking the truth. We tell ourselves lies all the time. You know, I'm not good enough. I'm a bad person. I don't know who I am. I have no identity. There's no hope for me. Is that reality? No, that's not rational thinking. It's truth.    Every time I entertain or harbor irrational thought, that creates problems for my brain. It's actually destructive to brain cells because it creates stress and stress damages brain cells. In the book we talk a lot about mental hygiene. How can we be focused on the truth and help our kids focus on the truth? What is the truth? It's what God says. It's God's word. That's the truth. That's the truth. You do have a purpose. You are loved. You're made in God's image. And you as a parent that applies to you too, right? Don't forget that. [00:45:23]    I is for inflammation. We know that when there's infections, when there's any sort of injury when people over-exercise, it creates inflammation. And that creates problems for the brain. We don't think well when there's inflammation.    G is for genetics. Daniel put that in there. I'm so glad though that if we know what our genetics are, we can do things that overcome those genetic challenges. So it's not like, oh, my dad had this or my mom had this and I'm doomed. No, it's good to know about that, take that into account, and take steps to correct in that area.   Head trauma. Kids have to wear helmets. We're not fans of kids playing football. Oh, there you go. I just lost a bunch of people. It's pretty traumatic for the brain. I think if you talk to any brain expert, they'll say the same thing. [00:46:35]    Toxins. That's what the t stands for. So we're going down this acronym bright minds, right? This is all in the book. I'm looking at page 22 and 23. But the toxins are really an issue. And so when we have a kid who's starting to make poor decisions and maybe basic discipline isn't working and we're seeing some behavior that's pretty scary, we want to be analyzing these things, too because I've seen kids who had exposure to some toxins. And all the discipline, all the psychological work in the world is not gonna cure that problem if there's something going on with that. Molds. Some forms of mold very very strongly related to brain health issues, physical issues.    Minds. M stands for mental health. You know, mental health. Mental health is the single most powerful thing you can do to help your kids to have good mental health is to be a strong and loving parent. [00:47:56]    Every one of your kids is going to be different. Everyone is going to have different challenges. But that strength and that love and the firmness and the kindness can help overcome so many of those. And that's the main contributor to mental health. I mean, we're relational. People, human beings are relational.    When we have relationships we are far less likely to have mental health issues. And brain health issues all dovetails together. Immune system problems. That's the I. That's another thing we look at is, is there an immune system issue? Is there an overactive or underactive immune system or infections going on?    Neuro hormone issues. And all this sounds deep. Parents, what do you do with this? You're listening to this and you're thinking, wow, now he's going into a lot of stuff. [00:48:54] Okay, here's what I recommend. You get the book. You focus on the basic discipline. You do the preventative things. If those things aren't working, you start looking back at the book. I have to look at the book. I forget what's in this book sometimes. I wrote it, all for crying out loud. I'm a mess. It's good, though.   I was reading it today and I thought, "This makes sense." But see, I have to go back to it and ask myself constantly, am I really following these things? So you start with the basic discipline. Those things aren't working. You go back to the book, you start taking away at the different subjects we bring up and you're going to have success. It's going to give you a road map. But there's a lot there.   So I just talked about neurohormone issues. That's something that a doctor has to look at. We talk about the D stands for diabetes and obesity. Those two things have a dramatic impact on brain health. [00:49:59]   Lastly, sleep. Oh, my goodness, sleep. Sleep's huge. I would say that the significant percentage of the learning and behavioral issues we see with kids, huge percentage, way over 50% of those problems are dramatically impacted by lack of quality sleep.   Laura Dugger: Wow.    Dr. Charles Fay: Way too many kids are staying up at night and way too many parents are allowing their kids to have screens in their bedroom. Let me share with you two things you can do that will have a dramatic impact on your family. They're really simple, but hard. They're simple because the concept isn't very complicated. They're hard because you're going to get pushback.    Simple. Gospel. Jesus, I need you. I can't do this myself. [00:50:56] I'm a sinner. I need you as my savior. I'm going to follow you. So here are two things you can do. If you do these, I can guarantee you your life's going to be better. You're gonna have healthier kids, healthier brains.    No screens in their bedrooms. They don't take their screens into their bedrooms during the day, during the night, any time. If they do have to do their homework, they do it in the kitchen. No screens in your bedroom.    Too many TVs, too many screens in your bedroom. You do those two things, life's going to be way better. It's going to be real uncomfortable at first for some people but life's going to be way better in the long term.    Laura Dugger: I think you're kind of leading us into, I believe it's chapter nine, where you get so practical about implementing this and educating us on the importance of mental health and brain health, but helping us to be proactive to improve those areas. You list natural ways. I'll just go over a few of these that I've gleaned from chapter nine and I'd love to hear you go a little bit deeper on whichever one jumps out.  [00:52:07]    Even as simple as eating protein that supports it. You talk about eating lots of protein and produce, the importance of having other high quality calories, and limiting sugar or anything boxed or processed. That's the section where you do go into limiting screens. And then also maximizing time with healthy people and maximizing time outdoors and getting physical exercise, investing in friendships, staying hydrated. Again, simple one. That is where you talk about getting plenty of sleep. Those are just some examples.   Dr. Charles Fay: Things that are best for us, we look at them like, oh man, do I really have to do that? There's this tension inside of us and it's so easy for us to get rebellious. So one thing I want to be really clear is we're not reaching to you and saying you have to do this, if you don't do this, you're a bad person, that sort of thing. That's not what this is all about.  [00:53:19]    But I will say, how can I make the choices that ultimately bring glory to God? The healthier I am physically, emotionally, spiritually, relationally, the more likely that I am going to be able to do that in ways that I feel good about.   Laura Dugger: Dr. Charles, there is just so much that we could continue to glean as wisdom from you. So where are some places you could direct us after this conversation if we want to continue learning more?   Dr. Charles Fay: Well, the book that I have here, again, it's just packed full of stuff. Practical. It's called, I don't know if you can see it or not, Raising Mentally Strong Kids. It's got a long subtitle. [00:54:15] If you look anywhere online, you're going to see that Daniel Amen, MD, Charles Fay, PhD, Raising Mentally Strong Kids. You're going to find that anywhere quality books are sold.    You can find out about Love and Logic by going to loveandlogic.com or you can look at danielamenmd.com or all over the web, you can find us there. And I think you'll enjoy the book because we've made mistakes, we've learned from millions of parents and years of research.   Laura Dugger: Well, thank you truly for this resource. It is chock full of goodness and wisdom and experience, and that is a labor of love. So I appreciate that. We'll also link to all of these places in the show notes for today's episode.    But you also are aware that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. So as my final question for you today, Dr. Fay, what is your savvy sauce?  [00:55:26]    Dr. Charles Fay: Oh, well, I have to say there's so many times where I find myself thinking, I don't know what to do. Any of you have that experience? You feel like the world is crashing down on you and I don't know what to do. There's no clear direction here in one way or another. So one of the things I want to say loud and clear is that my savvy sauce is saying to myself, "Lord, I don't know what to do, but my eyes are on you." Because I'm not smart enough to handle all this. But He'll guide us.   Laura Dugger: So good. Lord, I don't know what to do, but my eyes are on you. Thank you. You've given us so many, even one-liners that are memorable. So we can take this and apply it. And you've given a lot of encouragement to us as parents. So I'm grateful for your time and I just want to say thank you for being my guest. [00:56:29]    Dr. Charles Fay: Oh, thank you, Laura. Just a real blessing. Thanks for watching and listening to everybody. We're so thankful for you. Take care.   Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.   This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.   But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. [00:57:28]    Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.   Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.    So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. [00:58:27]    If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?    First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.    Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.  [00:59:28]    Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

253. Low Tech Parenting with Erin Loechner   I will not set before my eyes anything that is worthless. Psalm 101:3   Questions We Cover: Especially for us as parents, what are some motives of the big tech companies that capitalize on our naivety? What are some ways we can borrow the attractive features from social media to optimize influence within our home, as parents? What other ideas do you have for using our homes to build strategic family rhythms where all members can grow and flourish?   Erin Loechner is the founder of global tech-free movement, The Opt-Out Family. Erin is a former social media influencer who walked away from a million fans to live a low-tech lifestyle—and is now teaching others how to do the same. Her cutting-edge work has been praised in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, and the Huffington Post, as well as on the Today Show. When she's not scrawling on her trusty steno pad, Erin, her husband, and their three kids spend their days chasing alpenglow, reading Kipling, and biking to town for more tortillas.   Opt Out Family Website   Other Recommended Podcasts on This Topic: 170 Mastering Technology so it Does Not Master You with Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd   228 Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships  with Joey Odom   226 Tech-Savvy Family with Paul Asay of The Plugged In Staff   195 Tech and Parenting with Molly DeFrank   91 Technology and Parenting with Arlene Pellicane   Erin's Book Recommendations: Caddie Woodlawn Pilgrim's Progress Honey for a Child's Heart   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Transcript:Hello, this is Pastor Don of Christ Redeemer Church. Welcome to The Kingdom Perspective. Our God is a god of generosity and abundance. We see this in several ways. First is the limitlessness of His very being. God is not bound by time and space. He's not bound by anything outside Himself, at all. God needs nothing to exist for He is being itself, and so, He alone possesses the power to call into being that which does not exist. Secondly, God's abundance is demonstrated in all He has made. The universe we see is bigger than we can imagine. It's only been about a hundred years or so since Edwin Hubble discovered that our galaxy is one among others. Since that time, we've learned there are at least hundreds of billions of galaxies, each on average containing billions of stars. And we are discovering more all the time! This means that from our human vantage point, for all practical purposes, the universe God made is beyond limit. But all of this is backdrop to His greatest demonstration of generosity of all—the abundance of the riches of His grace toward us in Christ Jesus! When God decided to redeem fallen humanity, He spared no expense. He liquidated the full riches of heaven. He gave us the fullness of Himself in Christ. As Paul puts it in Ephesians, He has “blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 1:3). The God we serve is not stingy. Why in the world should we be? Something to think about from The Kingdom Perspective. “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.”~Ephesians 2:1-7 (ESV)

*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults   252. Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner   Ephesians 5:21 (NIV) Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are a couple of your most important tips for newlyweds? What are your favorite recommendations to share with couples who want to be proactive and enhance their sexual intimacy, even if things are currently going pretty well? Will you define what constitutes a sexless marriage and share  any trends you've seen over the years?   Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka   Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people of all faiths to connect their sexuality with their belief system ─ helping them embrace sex as good and of God. Dr. Clifford is a licensed clinical psychologist and Joyce is a registered nurse and clinical nurse specialist. They are highly respected authors and speakers, in addition to being parents and grandparents.    Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner's Website   At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.    Books By Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner: Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex Restoring the Pleasure The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment Sex FAQ We Didn't Have Time to Cover Today  Information on Pelvic Pain    Previous Savvy Sauce Episodes with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner: Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner    Maximizing Sexual Intimacy During the Three Most Challenging Phases of Marriage with Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner   Additional Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce: Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen  Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau  Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau Healthy Sexuality, Emotional Intelligence, and Parenting Children with Autism with Counselor, Lauren Dack Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel Bridging the Gap Between Military and Civilian Families with Licensed Professional Counselor, Cuthor, Podcaster, and 2015 Military Spouse of the Year, Corie Weathers Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma Enjoying Parenting and Managing Conversations About Sex with Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two) Personal Development and Sexual Wholeness with Dr. Sibylle Georgianna  Our Brain's Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1 Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2 Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas Sex Series: God's Design and Warnings for Sex: An Interview with Mike Novotny Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler Sex Series Orgasmic Potential, Pleasure, and Friendship: An Interview with Bonny Burns  Sex Series: Sex Series: Healthy Self, Healthy Sex: An Interview with Gaye Christmus Sex Series: Higher Sexual Desire Wife: An Interview with J Parker Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo 215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen 216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen 217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler 218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma 222 Pornography: Protecting Children and Personal Healing, Victory, and Recovery in Christ with Sam Black Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen 224 Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn 227 Resolving Conflict in Marriage with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo  Patreon 28 Re-Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder Patreon 23 Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen Patreon 26 Holy Sex with Dr. Juli Slattery Patreon 28 Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder Patreon 29 Remaining Sexually Engaged Through The Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma Patreon 49: Story of Healing from Sexual Betrayal in Marriage: An Interview with Bonny Burns Patreon 52 God, Sex, and Your Marriage with Dr. Juli Slattery   Connect with The Savvy Sauce Our Website, Instagram or Facebook    Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Special Patreon Re-Release: Creativity and Career while Raising a Family with Jean Stoffer   Daniel 6:23b (NASB) "So Daniel was lifted up out of the den, and no injury whatever was found on him, because he had trusted in his God."   Questions and Topics We Discuss: How did you prioritize your relationship with your children while also not squandering the gifts and talents you'd been given? Will you share a bit more about where your career has taken you? What are a few specific stories of the Lord clearly leading your way?   Jean Stoffer is an award-winning Grand Rapids-based independent interior designer specializing in kitchen and bath designs. Each of her designs is custom suited for her clients' lives and how they hope to use their home. Jean is also the founder of Stoffer Home, a retail store featuring beautiful and functional items for the home, and Stoffer Home Cabinetry, the source for Jean's own line of quality, British-inspired flush inset cabinets. In December 2021, the Magnolia Network began airing The Established Home, a TV series featuring Jean and her design work. Established Home on Magnolia Stoffer Home online store Visit Jean Stoffer's website   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Savvy Sauce Charities   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Update and Announcements You Don't Want to Miss!!   Transcription:   Merry Christmas, friends!! You may notice a full episode is not going live this week. I wanted to update you that we are taking our two week, end of the year break and we look forward to resuming podcasts every Monday in the new year, beginning January 6th. And one piece of our super exciting news is that we are going to soon not only be an audio only podcast, but we will also be offering video! You can watch these episodes on YouTube, beginning January 27th.   I have three additional announcements I want to make: First, I want you to be the first to know we have a new website! You may remember Francie Hinrichsen from Episode 132 where we talked about pursuing our God-Given Dreams. She is the amazing business woman who has carefully designed a brand new website for Savvy Sauce Charities and we are thrilled with the final product, so I hope you check it out!! You can find a scrapbook of previous guests, show notes, articles and more. My second and third announcements are related to the website.   One new thing you will find on our website is a transcription of every episode! Some guests have reached out to say they want to read the conversations, take notes on what was said, or in some cases, their spouse wants to glean all the goodness from each episode, but they prefer reading rather than listening. We heard you and we responded by making these transcripts available, free of charge to you! And speaking of free of charge, I want to share an announcement about the financial side of The Savvy Sauce Charities. As you know, we recently became a non-profit, which means all your financial support is now tax-deductible! There are multiple ways to give, and we would be so honored if you would share your financial support with us so that we can continue producing free content that is accessible to the general public.   Your money will go to support: Creatively getting the Gospel message of Jesus Christ to the nations as we continue to share the good news on every episode. I say this is reaching the nations because The Savvy Sauce podcast is downloaded in all 50 United States and well over 100 countries around the world. Your financial support also supports practical needs, such as: Aiding our team to continue producing helpful content that is practical, uplifting, and always pointing to Jesus. Your financial support furthermore will help us: Continue to expand our reach and secure future projects we have planned for this ministry.   If your ears are hearing this message, I am specifically asking you to give . . . we are so grateful for any amount and our team will continue to seek to be good stewards of the gifts offered to us. If you want to write a check or set up an ongoing payment with your bank that delivers a check to us each month, this is the most beneficial way to give because no percentages are taken out for processing fees. You can make your check out to  Savvy Sauce Charities at P.O. Box 101 Roanoke, IL 61561. Additionally, with our new website, we now have a donate button! There are processing fees that we cover for these donations, but we wanted to offer listeners a seamless way to share their finances with us when we share our content with them. So just visit thesavvysauce.com and find the donate page under the tab support. Another way to find it is simply type in donate to the search bar on the website and click the first picture shown.   We are all about sharing around here: Sharing resources, Sharing Joy, and sharing the good news about Jesus Christ! We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing The Savvy Sauce episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review!   Thanks for listening and I can't wait to be return on January 6th and begin sharing all these amazing guests we have in store for you. Until then, I hope you all have a very Merry Christmas as we celebrate God with us!   Merry Christmas Everyone and Happy New Year!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

249. Stories Series Conclusion: Now What? Living as Global Christians with Todd Ahrend of The Traveling Team   Acts 1:8 (NIV) "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”   Questions and Topics We Cover: What does it actually look like for you to live with eternal eyes and how can we grow in living the same way? Will you teach us about these four categories: goer, sender, mobilizer, and welcomer? Years ago, you shared a story about one international student that has stuck with me for nearly a decade. Will you retell that for us now?   Dr. Todd Ahrend graduated from Northeastern State University, has a Masters from Dallas Theological Seminary and a Doctorate from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary.   He is the founder and international Director of The Traveling Team, a national missions mobilization movement.  He and his wife, Jessica, have spent over two decades traveling both nation-wide and abroad, speaking to thousands of people about involvement in world evangelization. Todd has exposure in over sixty countries and has lived in the Middle East.   He is the author of The Abrahamic Revolution and In This Generation. Todd and Jessica have six children.   Email Dr. Todd Ahrend to speak at your event: tenfortytodd@gmail.com   The Traveling Team Website   The Missions Course   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sue Neihouser   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes adult content and is not intended for young ears. Story of Healing from Sexual Betrayal in Marriage: An Interview with Bonny Burns Luke 8:17 (NIV) "For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open." Questions We Discuss: Will you share your journey with us? Will you teach us what we may not be aware of for people who struggle with pornography addiction? What are lies or myths women are tempted to believe when they have been sexually betrayed? Bonny Burns is an APSATS certified partner coach (Association of Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists, apsats.org.) She has been writing and researching God's design of sexual intimacy since 2012 on the blog OysterBed7.com and has been speaking about godly sexual intimacy on the popular podcast, forchristianwives.com. She can also be found at strongwives.com. Strong Wives Website Sex Chats for Christian Wives Podcast Bonny Burns' Website Bonny Burns on Facebook Book with Bonny as your Coach Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“ Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“ Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*DISCLAIMER* This episode includes one portion with thematic descriptions, so please use discretion.   247. Stories Series: Exciting Adventures Follow Radical Obedience with Susan Zobrist   Isaiah 30:21 (NIV) Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”   Questions We Discuss: When did you begin following Jesus as your Lord and Savior? How did life change after that point, including the highs and lows as you progressed in your Christian walk? What were some surprising adventures God called you into?   Susan Zobrist serves as a Director at the South Side Christian Academy.  She takes care of the daily routine needs at the school, teaches chapel, and oversees the student and family files.  Her husband, Chad, serves as the board president in addition to his full time job.  Chad and Susan have four adult daughters and four wonderful sons-in-law.  They are settling into life with an empty nest and enjoying their grandchildren.   South Side Christian Academy   Previous Episode featuring Susan Zobrist on The Savvy Sauce: Following God's Leading with Susan Zobrist, Cassie Meiss, and Lisa Waibel   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank   Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

We live in a world that values personal identity. We identify ourselves and others by pronouns, tattoos, sexual preference, political party, color of skin, and a hundred other varieties of differentiation. However, all these self-identities are frivolous and vain. Identity politics is the force that draws people away from each other instead of pulling us together. “I'm this, and you're that, I'm from here and you're from there…” Can you see us cannibalizing ourselves? But we are more than we think we are and we always have been. Our deepest identity can only truly be found in one place: Jesus Christ! The entire book of Ephesians is a testimony to this truth. We are no longer defined by things that fragment us from each other, but by being one new creation and one new humanity in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:14-19). Only in Christ can we truly find ourselves. We might have all kinds of struggles and engage in all types of sin, but God is constantly calling us upward and home. This is the gospel. This is the call of Jesus: repent of sin and turn towards Him. Any other form of identity will be our demise. Only in turning to Jesus will we find our salvation.

Special Patreon Release: Theology and Discipleship with Ken Baugh Colossians 3:1 (NIV) Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Questions and Topics We Discuss: Will you elaborate about God's design for vertical and horizontal relationships? How does character development take place? What do you think is the primary challenge for those pursuing discipleship in today's culture? Ken Baugh was a successful pastor before a crippling experience of burnout disrupted his career and set him on a journey to better understand the dynamics of spiritual health. With a DMin from Talbot Theological Seminary, Ken is the founder and CEO of IDT Ministries. IDT Ministries Discipleship Website Pastor Ken Baugh's YouTube Channel At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. Unhindered Abundance by Ken Baugh Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“ Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“ Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

244. Stories Series: Medical Marvels with Carolyn Henricks   2 Corinthians 4:17-18 (NIV) "For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."   Carolyn Henricks is married to Gary, mother to four married adult children, and grandmother to ten. She retired from her career as Pediatric Quality Coordinator at OSF St. Francis and now spends time volunteering in various capacities.   Questions We Discuss:   What was it that drew you to a saving faith in Jesus Christ? What medical complications did your third son walk through? Do you have any wisdom to share first about parenting adult children?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company   Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”  

*DISCLAIMER* This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears. Special Patreon Release: Remaining Sexually Engaged Through the Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma Colossians 3:14 (NIV) “And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.” Dr. Michael Sytsma is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of sexual wholeness.  Dr. Mike has been working with couples in a variety of capacities since 1987. He currently works with Building Intimate Marriages in Atlanta, GA as he meets with clients, teaches, and speaks at various conferences. He and Karen have been married since 1985 and have two sons, Josiah and Caleb. Building Intimate Marriages Website Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chasing Sacred (Use code SAVVY for 20 percent off their Bible studies) Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“ Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“ Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

243: Stories Series: Angel Encounter and Hearing from God with Mary Beth Zimmerman   Hebrews 1:14 (NIV) "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"   Other Episode Mentioned: 27 Life Lessons with My Dad   Topics we cover: Unique Upbringing Angel Encounter God reveals Himself in a Personal Way   Mary Beth Zimmerman has been married to her high school sweetheart, Dennis, for 42 years. In all the excitement of establishing their home and later, their business, they were privileged to raise three fun and energetic boys. Mary Beth is blessed to have a warm, kind daughter in-law and two precious grandchildren. She is now back to keeping their home and office in check with just she and Dennis at home. Mary Beth loves to travel with her husband and two of her favorite trips (besides their ongoing trips to Table Rock Lake with family) have been a motorcycle trip to Canada and a 12-day stay in Israel, walking and seeing where Jesus lived and died and rose again. She loves Jesus and encourages others in their walk with Him!   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka   Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

242. Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel   Philippians 1:21 (NIV) "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain."   Questions and Topics We Discuss: What are some of your highlights of raising children and parenting? Will you share how life unexpectedly and drastically changed on July 3rd, 2009? How has God sustained you through this loss?   Other Episode Mentioned  on The Savvy Sauce: 82 Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

241. Stories Series: From the Mission Field, Experiencing God in the Little and the Big with Patty Sommer   Psalms 7:11-12 (AMP) "I will [solemnly] remember the deeds of the Lord; Yes, I will [wholeheartedly] remember Your wonders of old. I will meditate on all Your works And thoughtfully consider all Your [great and wondrous] deeds."   Other Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned: 204 Charlotte Mason Inspired Mini-Series: A Delectable Education with Emily Kiser   Patreon 55 Charlotte Mason Inspired Mini-Series: Embracing a Robust Life with Nicole Williams   Patreon 56 Charlotte Mason Inspired Mini-Series: Imparting Morals to Our Children with Liz Cottrill   Questions and Topics We Cover: What miracles, big and small, have you witnessed from God throughout your life? What is something we may not know that is true of many missionary families? What does a typical day look like in your world?   Patty Sommer is a Michigander by birth, though she has now lived in Ghana, West Africa for longer than she lived in Michigan. She is  a follower of Jesus, wife to her best friend John for 21 years, and mother of 4 girls. She recently came to the realization that she is no longer a "young mom," but squarely in middle age, learning how to mother all her kiddos well, with her oldest 7,000 miles away at school in Tennessee and her youngest just finishing 4th grade. Her family is also in a transition in Ghana, as they are stepping out of a church plant that is very close to being autonomous and preparing to start a new one. Patty loves discipling young wives and mothers, and getting to share all God has taught her. She is a bookworm but does almost all her reading at night when the house is quiet. She loves spending time in nature, studying educational philosophy, and writing. She is currently seeking to master the art of sourdough bread.   Connect with Patty: Instagram Blog   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Special Patreon Re-Release: Lead with Questions in Parenting with Stacy Bellward   Jeremiah 29:13 (NIV) "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."   Stacy Bellward has walked thousands of parents through all of Connected Families online courses - encouraging them, asking thoughtful questions and nudging them toward new thinking. Her favorite is finding and celebrating the small wins with parents. A speaker, Stacy is real and brings stories of her own: raising 2 high schoolers, 20 year multicultural marriage, adoption, and learning in ever increasing ways to trust God with it all. Stacy is a certified leadership coach, Bible Study teacher, award winning author, Connected Families podcast host, and soccer mom.   Connected Families Website Online Courses Through Connected Families (20% off when you use the code SAVVY at checkout!) Connected Families Podcast   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Magic Mind (Get up to 56% off your subscription or save 20% off your one time purchase when you use the code SavvySauce20 at checkout.)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

240 Stories Series: God's Protection and Covering in Parenting with Brenda Dugger   Psalms 34:7 (NIV) "The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them."   Questions and Topics We Cover: What was life like, growing up as an identical twin? Will you share how He miraculously protected your sons multiple times? Do you have any favorite stories that come to mind about Mark?   Brenda Dugger is a retired chief nursing executive and hospital administrator. She is married to Russ and they are the parents of three grown, married sons. They are also grandparents to 11 grandchildren.   Previous Episodes on The Savvy Sauce with Mark Dugger: The Inside Scoop on Chick-fil-A with Mark Dugger   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

239 Stories Series: Experiencing the Supernatural with Jackie Coleman   Genesis 50:20 + 21 (NIV) "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. So then, don't be afraid. I will provide for you and your children.” And he reassured them and spoke kindly to them."   Questions and Topics We Discuss: Are you willing to share some of the supernatural happenings you experienced with you family and  your dad near the end of his life? Will you share a few of your God stories you've experienced through your daughter, Olive's medical journey? What are some recent things the Lord has been teaching you?   Jackie Coleman completed her undergraduate studies at the University of Georgia in 2005. She later earned an M.A. in Counseling from Richmont Graduate University and an M.Ed. from Harvard Graduate School of Education, where she was named an Urban Scholar. While in Boston, she worked as a bilingual Family Counselor for Youth Villages, and later launched the Transitional Living program, which is designed to assist at-risk youth aging out of state custody. While in Atlanta, she worked on marriage and family issues with Building Intimate Marriages and research and writing projects for best-selling author Shaunti Feldhahn. In 2012, as Executive Director, Jackie helped design and implement Governor Deal's REACH (Realizing Educational Achievement Can Happen) Georgia program, a mentoring and college scholarship opportunity for low-income middle school students. Eventually Jackie taught at Winters Chapel School where her children attended. Jackie is married to John and she now stays home with their four children.   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 23 Nurturing Friendships with Jackie Coleman 99 Sabbath Rest with Sandy Feit   Total Forgiveness Sermon by R.T. Kendall   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Stories Series: God Delights in His Children with Pastor Brad Habegger   1 Peter 5:7 (NIV) "Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."   Questions or Topics We Cover: Reflecting back, can you identify any specific habits or experiences that seemed to be catalysts for deepening your faith? How did God show you He sees our individual needs and delights in blessing His children? What are a few of your favorite stories that come to mind from working with children for so many years?   Brad Habegger has been attending Grace Church since he was five years old and attended the children's ministries he now oversees as the Associate Pastor of Children's Ministries. After graduating from Morton High School, he earned a degree in Christian Education from Taylor University. For the next 12 years, he served as Program Director and later Executive Director at Camp of Champions USA (COCUSA), a Christian summer day camp. In November 2014, he became Grace Church's first Children's Ministry Pastor. Brad and his wife, Cali, were married in September 2004 and have two daughters. In addition to being a faithful mom, Cali works a few days a week as a sign language interpreter at Illinois State. Brad likes playing basketball and tennis and following the St. Louis Cardinals and college basketball.   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Also, check out our Patreon Page to find out how to gain access to additional podcasts and goodies!   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Special Patreon Re-Release: Unexpected Story of Trauma, Anxiety, Adoption, and Hope with Bettina Stevens Psalms 69:29 + 30 (NIV) "But as for me, afflicted and in pain - may your salvation, God, protect me. I will praise God's name in song and glorify him with thanksgiving." Bettina Stevens is married to her high school sweetheart, Paul, and they have been married 11 years. She is mama to three - Jordan and Sebastian, both adopted from Uganda, and Olivia adopted from China. She navigates special needs and trauma between all 3 of her kiddos, and she and Paul are also licensed foster parents. Her house is always filled with noise and the scent of something baking in the oven. Bettina has her doctorate in Physical Therapy, but has stepped away from this role to pursue caring for her children full-time and running their nonprofit, Reclaimed Hope Initiative. Reclaimed Hope was founded in 2018 and seeks to support and advocate for foster, adoptive and special needs families in their community. It was born from a place of loneliness, isolation and grief in their own journey, and exists to be a voice for families walking through trauma, crisis or hardship. Bettina couldn't do what she does without Jesus, and cherishes the quiet moments of prayer in the morning before the sound of footsteps begin. She loves to serve others through good food, scrumptious desserts and a listening ear, and seeks to sit with people through their darkest moments. Reclaimed Hope Initiative Connect on Instagram and Facebook At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. The Connected Child The Connected Parent Karyn Purvis Institute Thank You to Our Sponsor: Slumber Sleepwear  Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast! Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.” Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.” Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“ Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“ Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

  237 Stories Series: Prodigal and Redemption with Renee Endress   Isaiah 61:1-3 (KJV) "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified." ‭‭ Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you tell us a bit about your experience of surrendering your life to Christ? Will you share your journey with your prodigal daughter, Andrea? Will you tell us about Grace Catering and your cookbooks?   Renée Endress is blessed to be the mother of seven children ranging from 16-32 years old, all of whom she homeschooled. Four of the seven are married and her six precious grandchildren bring her much joy and laughter! She is also part of a church family she loves and her dear parents passed on to her a love of sunsets, flowers, and the beauty of God's creation.   Cooking has been a passion for much of her life and she's written three cookbooks, which were later combined into one large book. For the past ten years, she enjoyed catering, which kept growing and eventually blossomed into an almost full-time job. A couple years ago, she refurbished a building in Peoria, Illinois, which is now her catering kitchen where they make homemade take and bake meals for people to purchase. Through it all, God has been so good!   Renée says, "I could share just the pretty parts of my life, but I've come to realize that something special can happen when people are real with each other -- when we share the muddy parts of our lives as well as the lovely parts. This can be used to encourage each other on the journey, and most of all, to point to the faithfulness of our amazing Savior, who loves to redeem our mud stories.   My story looks much different than my idealistic hopes for my future as a young woman, but through it all, God has been faithful every single step of the way. He was faithful in teaching me as an immature newlywed struggling through some very difficult relationship situations. He was faithful as I walked, tripped, and floundered with a daughter through some very dark teenage years, deep rebellion, ten months at a residential facility for troubled teens, and a teenage pregnancy. He was oh, so faithful when my difficult marriage of twenty-four years turned more and more destructive and led to an ongoing separation. He was faithful two years later when I was diagnosed with breast cancer and underwent two surgeries and radiation treatments. He has been faithful through ten years of "single" motherhood. He was faithful as He opened doors for me to start a thriving catering business at the perfect time. He was faithful when He allowed me to be a part of starting "Beauty for Ashes," a group for women from my national church who have come from painful marriages. As I look back on my life, I see plainly His footprints all the way through.   These verses have been so meaningful in my life: "...He hath sent me (Jesus) to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound... to comfort all that mourn... to give them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that He might be glorified." Isaiah 61:1-3"   Visit Renée's Business or Order Her Popular Cookbook at Grace Catering   Other Related Episode from The Savvy Sauce: 78 Parenting the Prodigal Child And God's Desire For Redemption With Mother-Daughter Duo, Claire Stanfill and Tindell Baldwin   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Magic Mind (Get up to 56% off your subscription or save 20% off your one time purchase when you use the code SavvySauce20 at checkout.)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

238 Stories Series: God's Power and Light with Jaime Farrell   John 3:30 (NIV) " He must become greater; I must become less.”   Jaime Farrell is first of all, a beloved of her Lord. She is also wife to Jonathan, and mother to Jorja, Jolie, Jemma, and Job. She can be reached through Instagram or Facebook and she would also love to invite you to sit with her at church! Find out more about the church where her family attends and her husband serves as Lead Pastor at gracemorton.org.   Questions we discuss: As an adult now, when you reflect back on your childhood, what was it that specifically made the most significant impact on you and your faith journey? Now as a wife and mom of four, what values and traditions and rhythms have you carried forward in your family? Since becoming a Jesus-follower, what ways have you continued to see God at work, in ways both big and small?   Other Episodes mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: #2 From 2022: Fresh Take on Hospitality with Jaime Farrell   Patreon 48 Conversations with Your Teen About Sex, Puberty, and Identity with Janelle Rupp (Interview with Jaime's Sister)   Patreon 43 Better Together with Jon and Jolene Rocke (Interview with Jaime's Parents)   Recommended Books and Series for Tween/Teens: This Changes Everything: How the Gospel Transforms The Teen Years by Jaquelle Crowe Choosing Love by Heidi Johnston God's Great Story Devotional by Jon Nielson Lies Young Women Believe and The Truth That Sets Them Free by Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth and Dannah Gresh 10 Questions Every Teen Should Ask (and Answer) About Christianity by Rebecca McLaughlin Truth Matters by Andreas J. Kosstenberger The Case for Christianity by C.S. Lewis The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness by Timothy Keller   Fiction: Mark of the Lion Series by Francine Rivers The Rendigo Tales J.A. Meyer The Epic Order of the Seven Series   Allegories: The Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan Hinds Feet on High Places by Hannah Hurnard   Other Book Mentioned: When People are Big and God is Small by Edward T. Welch Little Pilgrim's Progress by Erik M. Peterson   Food Recommendations and Recipes for Hosting: *Reach out to Jaime for Rocke's "Essential" Seasoning through Instagram or Facebook.* Pretzel Cereal Crunch from Taste of Home (Optional: add MnMs) Ranch Snack Mix from Taste of Home (Optional: replace cashews with Cheese-itz and Rice Chex) Cookies and Creme Puppy Chow from Sally's Baking Addiction Red Velvet Oreo Brownies from Sally Baking Addiction Cookie Dough Bars from The Recipe Critic Salted Caramel Cookie Bars from Brown-Eyed Baker Frosted Sugar Cookie Bars from Brown-Eyed Baker   Recipes: Joy's Dip: Mix together: 1  block Velveeta 2 cans Hormel Chili No Beans Several Dashes of Worcheshire Sauce   Honey Mix: ⅔ cup butter 1 ½ cup brown sugar  ½ cup honey Combine in a sauce pan. Do not stir! Boil 2 ½ minutes. Add 1 tsp of vanilla. Pour over 6 cups of Crispix, 2 cups mini pretzels 1 cup salted peanuts. Put into a greased baking sheet and bake at 250 for ½ hour stirring half way through. Pour onto wax paper to dry. Break apart.    Candy Bar Bars- freeze Halloween candy bars/chocolate 2 ½ sticks of butter ¾ cup sugar ¾ cup brown sugar 2 eggs 1 tsp. Vanilla 1 tsp salt 2 ¼ cup flour 1 tsp baking soda 1 cup chocolate chips Cream butter and sugar together. Add eggs and vanilla. Add the dry ingredients and mix well. Add in chocolate chips. Grease a jelly roll pan and spread dough. It may be hard to do but keep patting and spreading.  Bake at 375 for 15-20 minutes. It will be golden brown. Cool completely. *Cut candy bars while cooling. Cut into small bits and bites. Any type of bar/chocolate works!! Melt 1 ½ cup chocolate chips and 1 ½ cup peanut butter in a microwave slowly. Spread over the bars and immediately sprinkle with cut candy bars- always end the top with m&ms for color!   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sue Neihouser   Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”