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Peace and Joy: Special Patreon Release with Kay Wyma   “So, as God's own chosen people, who are holy [set apart, sanctified for His purpose] and well-beloved [by God Himself], put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience [which has the power to endure whatever injustice or unpleasantness comes, with good temper];” ‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭AMP‬‬   *Transcription Below*   Questions We Discuss: Will you elaborate on this concept of a Soul30? What were your favorite stories from this adventure? How has this peace project changed the way you will live life from this point forward?   Kay Wyma is a mom, blogger, podcaster, and author of four books in which she has tackled, with candor and humor, some of the troubling societal issues that impact us all. Kay's writings have led her to appearances on TODAY, CNN, Hallmark's Home & Family, and more. Before staying at home with her kids, she held positions at the White House and Bank of America. She lives in Dallas, Texas, with her husband and five kids. Connect with Kay at kaywyma.com or on Instagram @kaywyma.   At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.   The Peace Project   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:47) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria, and Savvy Sauce Charities.   If this is your first time here, welcome! You may be wondering what it means to have a special Patreon release, so here's the scoop. Patreon was a platform we used to generate financial support for The Savvy Sauce, and we expressed our thanks to those paying patrons by giving them a bonus episode every month.   But in 2024, we transitioned away from Patreon when we became a non-profit called the Savvy Sauce Charities. The podcast is part of this non-profit, which exists to resource loved ones to inspire growth and intimacy with God and others. So, people used to pay to support us through Patreon, but now they can just donate directly to our non-profit.   We spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes, and we do pray that they're beneficial and that God sees fit to use them to be transformational in your life. If that is the case, if you have ever benefited from an episode of The Savvy Sauce, would you consider showing your gratitude through your financial generosity? Any amount is greatly appreciated.   In fact, if every listener gave only $1 per month, it would completely offset our costs. We have all the details on our website, thesavvysauce.com, but feel free to also reach out to our team anytime if you want to partner together. Our email address is info@thesavvysauce.com.   And now I'm pleased to share this episode with you that used to only be available to paying patrons. Kay Wyma is my returning guest today. She is vibrant, and her curiosity sometimes leads to experiments in her life. Her most recent experiment turned into a book, and now she's going to let us in on three areas of focus that added peace and joy to her life. This process is based on Scripture and validated in science. Here's our chat.   Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Kay.   Kay Wyma: (2:48 - 2:52) Thank you so much for having me. You're really sweet to put up with me again.   Laura Dugger: (2:53 - 3:07) Well, it was a delight last time, and I'm excited for today as well. And I'm so fascinated by your history of different careers and roles you've had. So, will you tell us a little bit more about all that you've experienced professionally?   Kay Wyma: (3:08 - 5:44) Oh my gosh, it's so funny, Laura, because people will read the bio as they could for any of us that are in our mid-50s, and I'm sitting there going, I'm exhausted listening to that. But the deal is that they didn't happen all at the same time, but I just had a really great opportunity to do some interesting stuff. And one of them, especially in my 20s, I got to work in the George Herbert Walker Bush, so 41 White House, and I was a lead advance for the vice president.   And so, I pretty much got to travel all over the country and a lot of very interesting places in the world during that period. And it was a blast. I got to set up the trips as they would go traveling to these places with the Secret Service and White House Communications. And it just was an amazing way, an opportunity to get to see the world. And then I went on to graduate school and got an MBA and ended up somehow in an international investment banking role, which is laughable because I cannot even help my children with fifth grade math. So, I don't know who that person was that did that.   But I used to be able to do things that way. I can't anymore. And then I had kids, which was such a blessing. I'd met my husband at graduate school when we got married after I'd finished my stint in the White House and had kids right off the bat. And during that time, I really did try to piggyback. That was back in the day when women were allowed to job share, and I just couldn't do it. The more kids that came, the harder it was. And so I stayed at home with my kids, started a couple of businesses here and there, and then found myself in the world of writing. And I didn't plan on it. I kind of say I was an accidental writer, but I don't think anything is really an accident. It's not something that I was educated to do. However, I loved it.   And I look back now and look at the great education that I had gotten and honestly how much I loved writing even as a child. I just didn't know that was something that you could do because back in that day there were, and I'm not that old, but there really were careers that were careers that you sort of went to that made sense from a sensible banking father. It's like, here are your choices for a degree plan. And so, I love how just even gravitating towards what you're gifting a purpose is, which we talked about before, it's just those things are in you, and it's fun to see how they will come out and how fun that it can even come out in a way where it's your vocation. And so here I sit as a writer, crazy.   Laura Dugger: (5:44 - 6:00) Which is so great to hear the journey because you would think the math and the different skills required for international banking and then to become a successful author, that's so interesting. And this is so random and I could be wrong. Were your parents ever on Focus on the Family?   Kay Wyma: (6:01 - 6:54) Well, they could have been. I have the greatest parents. I really do. They're so kind and they're just really terrific people. And so, they became friends, like they're friends with Dr. Dobson. And so, I don't know if they were. That's another really gift they gave us. You just do it in front of you and you don't really make a big deal about anything. And I love that. Everybody puts their pants on the same way, which is one thing I loved even about working at the White House because some of the stuff can look so glamorous and go. But the truth is, we're all just people. And the Lord has put in certain people's paths, things to do that could look really amazing and spectacular. But the amazing and spectacular is around you every single day, even if it might not have something. And for my kids would be like that have a million followers or that has gone viral. But they are there. I'm very blessed, Laura, with very nice parents.   Laura Dugger: (6:55 - 7:03) Well, you've mentioned before that you battled an eating disorder growing up. Do you feel comfortable sharing a little bit more about that journey?   Kay Wyma: (7:04 - 8:39) Absolutely. So, I definitely battled that. And again, I have a wonderful family that I grew up in, a home that I grew up in. But I also grew up in an environment where performance was a big deal, which it is today, too. So many kids are struggling with that. Oh, my gosh, so terribly. And whatever you're struggling with, because it could be for me, it was performance. And the way that I learned, the way that I coped with it was through eating and not eating. And a lot of just getting rid of the food that I had eaten.   And there just came a day when I was in college that thankfully the Lord, the Lord just showed me one night that this is not a good thing. So, I actually left that semester of college to get help. And it changed my life. I was telling one of the girls yesterday, my girls, how grateful I am for that because I had never really understood or even contemplated the concept of grace. I just didn't know that was something I'd heard it, but I didn't know what it was. And I didn't know a whole lot about my worth having been declared by God and my identity having been determined by him. And I will say at 55, I know a lot more about it than I did even then at 19 or 20, but it was going through that journey, asking for help, stopping what was hurting me and reaching for truth that put me on a road to actually learn a lot of just what it means when he says it is for freedom that I have set you free.   Laura Dugger: (8:40 - 9:00) And the reason that I bring up the eating disorder is from a previous podcast. I can't remember which one, but elsewhere I'd heard you say that you stay away from the whole 30 diet, but you were intrigued one day to instead try a soul 30. So, will you share that story with us too?   Kay Wyma: (9:01 - 14:47) I will. And I do, I have to tell you, I, since, since I was 20, I've steered clear of scales and I really do steer clear of diets for me because they don't do good things in my head. And so, one thing that I learned through all of that was that you, you can't change an environment. Often you can't change the environment that you're in, but you can change the way you operate within the environment. Biggest lesson that I learned through all of that, like, please hear that. It was so life altering as I stood going, I can't change this environment, but I can change how I interact with it.   Okay. And so, the whole 30, I do find intriguing, you know, because people, if you're going to do something physically, like to make your diet better, a lot of people do that. And so, for 30 days, they, they exit a ton out of their diet. I don't know everything about it because I am a big chicken. And I think they, if, if I was going to do it, the thing that would be the killer for me is not being able to have cream in your coffee. You know, it's like, that's a deal breaker for me right there.   But the soul 30 it all started one morning. Again, I think I told you on the last one that like, even the experiment with the putting the stuff, like helping the kids with independence started with my rotten attitude. Well, this started with the rotten attitude too. And we aren't always doing experiments in our house, but I just had this bad attitude one morning as I'd come home from carpool. I had women coming over to my house. I leave a Bible study that meets on Tuesdays. And I was just going to the refrigerator to get milk out to be able to serve coffee. And there were two jugs of milk in our fridge. I pull the first one out and it's empty. And I'm like, what? And the second one, I pull it out. It's empty too. Like maybe a drop in it. And quite frankly, I could have put it back going, well, there's a drop of milk in it, but I don't know why people do that. Like in our house, it could be the same with a cereal box. Like you pull the box out, there's nothing in it. And I'm like, just throw it away. Like, please.   And so I was frustrated. I get out into my car to go to the grocery store. And as I drive back out into the street, this big black pickup truck, literally like road routes its way into my face. And I was sort of like, really? And, and I didn't have a choice, but to back down because he was not going to let me go. And so as I started to back up, I looked up and I got to see this beautiful sun like peeking through this cloudy sky. And, and it was so beautiful. I was like, what am I doing? Like why am I in a crabby mood or frustrated by this? I'm in an air-conditioned car on my way to a grocery store where there are refrigerated items and there are people, somebody actually might say hello. Okay. Cause I go in there all the time and I was sort of like; everything is not bad.   And I started to breathe. And I didn't realize in that moment that I was, I was being thankful. Like I just, it just happened. And, and in that I really was breathing. And I like felt better inside of me. I back up and let the guy go legitimately, which again, I did not realize it in the moment, but it was an act of kindness. And I felt even better. And when he drove by, I looked in his window and I was sitting there going, I have, it was a human being first of all. And I recognize that. And just for a moment, I was like, I have no idea what's going on in his day. He could be raced into the hospital. He could be late for work. He could just, you know, be a jerky person and, and life as long as a jerky person. And, and I just was, I wasn't over spiritualizing or anything, but I prayed for him. I was like, please let whatever's going on in his day be okay. Because if he's that intense, something is not great.   And I drove to the grocery store, and I physically felt so good. It was like, like I had been given a joke Cola or something like I, Or some vitamin that was just a blast of energy. And it lasted. By the time ladies got over, I was like, you're gonna believe what happened this morning. It was so weird. And I told them about it the next week they came back and one of the ladies said, can you tell me again? What that story? And I was like, what story? And the lady next to her goes, Oh, I've been doing it. And I was like, doing what? And she goes, your thing. I was like, what is my thing? And she said, Oh, the thankfulness, kindness, and compassion. And as we talked about it again, I was sitting there going, is that something because it had deeply impacted this person that was trying it even for a week.   And I really sat there going, okay, we would do a whole 30 for a physical diet. Something in these practices is impacting the soul. And I was like, what if we tried a soul 30 and for 30 days, proactively practiced thankfulness, kindness, and mercy, because that's what compassion is a part of mercy. What would happen? And so it was sort of like, let's do it. And these very sweet friends were willing to try as were my kids. And so instead of like pulling something away, which is what a fast is that goes with a whole 30, we sort of switched it to this unbelievable soul feast that came with doing these things. It was unbelievable. The joy that came into everyone's life when they started doing this stuff. I mean, it was amazing. And so as I tracked it, I really did track it because I like to know why it was sort of like, why is this happening? What's going on? What is in these things that actually can impact your life at such a deep, deep level to where joy is invited in and peace.   Laura Dugger: (14:49 - 15:00) And so, like you said, you focus on thankfulness, kindness, and mercy in this most recent book, The Peace Project, but will you define and give examples of each of those?   Kay Wyma: (15:01 - 19:08) Yes. And I think that is such a great way to start because it's like, okay, what, what is it even on the soul 30? I was like, here's what you do. Okay. Here is what thankfulness says, because I went to look like, if I'm going to ask, please do these things, here's what they are. So, thankfulness is calling out things for which to be grateful. And for our family, for my kids, I was like, please let it not be the same thing every day. Although now a year and a half out, what difference does it make? It could be the same thing every day. But for them, I was like, don't let it be the same thing. And it can be more than one thing, because the thing with thankfulness, when you start it, it's like, it may take a little effort to go, what do I have to be thankful for? Especially in a situation that's unsettling, which is kind of like when that car drove up on me, that was an unsettling moment.   I was being forced down. And there's so much going on in that conversation that isn't spoken, which I think is important to call out in these things. So even as he's barreling up on me, it makes me feel unseen. It makes me feel like there's no, even though it's not spoken, that action brings with it. What thankfulness does is it instantly, it's like a wake up, like it's a focus shift. And so, and it tends to be looking up in some way, and it gets your eyes off of whatever the situation is. And it allows for truth to come in, which is where thankfulness goes, especially in the unsettling. Cause you can say, as I didn't mean to, but I did even in that moment, I am in an air-conditioned car. It is Texas in the summer, for goodness sake, that is a gift. And it's worth calling out. And there's always something for which to be grateful. So that's what thankfulness is.   Kindness is seeing and loving others. And let me tell you something, loving yourself too, because I've learned through this. We are harder on ourselves than we are on anybody else. So seeing and loving others and yourself in deed or action, this component is so significant because you're taking it. Thankfulness is in your thoughts. So you're walking through in your thoughts and you're doing these things. And kindness is where you're going that extra step. And you're actually putting action on it so that even in your mind, because I learned a lot about neural pathways and how our minds can be transformed by this, which is sort of where we started. If your physical health can be impacted by a diet, can my thought health be impacted by doing things that are good for it? And so kindness takes it from the thought to the action. And so even in that, you know, letting that car go, that is so small. And so kindness doesn't have to be moving a mountain. It can be tiny little things.   I've watched my neighbor one morning picking up newspapers and putting them on everybody's porch. And no one was seeing her do that. I accidentally did. And she even told me that day, you know, it's the small things because it is because when that person opens the door, the neighbor opens their door, they know that someone thought of them that day. Like it gives them, whether it's spoken or not, they get a sense of worth by going, I must matter. Somebody cared enough to put my newspaper on my front porch. Tiny, tiny things, as well as big things can be an act of kindness.   And then mercy, that's the showstopper. And it is a challenge and it is beautiful. And the definition of mercy is compassion or forgiveness shown towards someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm. And again, including ourselves. And so as I started to peel back the layers on mercy, there's more and there's more and there's more. And another one of my favorite definitions of it was from a Jesuit priest whose name is James Keenan. And he called mercy the willingness to enter into someone else's chaos, which I actually found to be the most powerful because willingness plays a central role in this whole process because it actually is centered on our significance having been settled by the Lord.   Laura Dugger: (19:09 - 19:17) What surprising discoveries did you make as you deliberately practiced each of these attitudes? And like you said, you partnered them with action steps.   Kay Wyma: (19:18 - 21:54) Yeah, so I think for everybody, we just did a book club just finished last week, even here. And one of the gals said that she has been struggling terribly with anxiety and worry that stemmed a lot. They moved to Florida before the pandemic. And so, she was living in a new place, basically holed up in her house for a year and a half. And those things of worry and anxiety and fear had crept in and had become, you know, on repeat in her mind. And so just because she had signed up for the book club, came with a friend and she didn't really buy any of it because it doesn't matter whether you buy it or not because these things are not for me. Like that's the number one thing. They aren't mine. These really are woven within the greatest commandment. You know, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind is thankfulness. Your eyes are not on yourself. And love others as you love yourself. And he's not talking about a narcissistic love. He's like genuine caring for others and yourself. There's so much power in that, which includes kindness and mercy.   And so, she simply started doing the thankfulness. She was like, I don't know what the others are, but I know I can track being thankful. I can find a way to be thankful. And she came back after the first week and couldn't believe what it had done to her. Just in practicing thankfulness, which we know through science that there are benefits that occur in your brain just by doing that simple act. And it's clearly proven. You can just Google even the amount of thankfulness journals because it's so good for us. And if you write it down and look at it and see, you're using all these senses. And when you add the kindness and the mercy to it, it's so deeply impactful.   And so, I think the thing that probably surprised me the most is how consistent the piece is and how your neural pathways actually can change. You can actually have your superhighway and your thought process, because we have those ruts in our brain that are highly traveled paths that our thoughts go to. And they tend actually to be along the lines of anxiety or fear or worry, because that's been a part of your life since you were a little kid. And to be able to somehow transition those highest traveled pathways to something that involves kindness and mercy and thankfulness is so significant because your instant reaction is going to a place of peace instead of a place of anxiety. It's like where science meets scripture.   Laura Dugger: (21:54 - 27:25) It's so beautiful. And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Did you know you can go to college tuition-free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right. Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University. Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia. This online self-paced program includes 13 associates degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees, and two master's programs, including an MBA. 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Additionally, with our new website, we now have a donate  button. There are processing fees that we cover for these donations, but we wanted to offer listeners a seamless way to share their finances with us when we share our content with them. So just visit thesavvysauce.com and find the donate page under the tab support. Another way to find it is simply type in donate to the search bar on our website and just click the first picture shown.   We are all about sharing around here, sharing resources, sharing joy, and sharing the good news about Jesus Christ. We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing The Savvy Sauce podcast episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review. You can also share any of our social media posts on Instagram or Facebook. We are grateful for all of it, and we just love partnering together with you. Now, back to the show.   You've already shared one piece of scripture that was impactful. Were there any other passages that especially seemed to come to life during this project?   Kay Wyma: (27:26 - 29:11) Oh, yes, and they continue to, Laura, as is always the case with scripture. You know, it really is like, wow. But I love the take your thoughts captive and make them obedient to me, which can sound like it's something that I do, you know, that I'm going to have to make my thoughts obedient to him, but it's really the Lord's power that does that. And it's like these things, you know, I think we talked before about, he isn't doing something to us by saying do these things, it's for us. And it's because when you do these things, naturally it is going to set you free. And so, I love that.   I love in Isaiah where it says, “He will keep in perfect peace him whose mind is steadfast in him.” And so when you feel that unsettledness, in that unsettledness, we can go to the places of worry or fear or anxiety, but what if in the unsettledness you can go to the one who says, I see you, who says you are known, who says you are a masterpiece, who says you belong because I chose you, who says, “I see you, you are mine.” And then go to those beautiful verses, even in Isaiah where he says, “you'll go through the water and they will not rise up over you and you will go through the fire, yet you will not be burned.” That's the truth because the one who says it is the one who protects us through all those things. And in the willingness aspect of this, it goes to this place where you're trusting what you can't see. And that is the one who has said these things over us to the point where I'm acting on it in places that can feel very scary. And leaning into his safety actually proves his safety over and over and over and over. And I think that's why the piece comes in.   Laura Dugger: (29:12 - 29:17) Kay, you're such a great storyteller. So, do you have any favorite stories from this adventure?   Kay Wyma: (29:18 - 33:55) There's a couple. So, it's like these practices rehumanize what so much around us has been dehumanizing because people aren't objects. People really matter. We like to compartmentalize everybody based on so many things, our race, our religion, the color of our hair, our vocation. I mean, you name it. And so, it kind of dehumanizes in that. And now we have this cancel culture, which is so weird. Like you could cancel a human being. And so, the rehumanizing comes in all of these practices. And it's so powerful.   So, we were even on our way to the grocery store. There was a person that needed to get over a couple of lanes. And so, I'm with one of my daughters and I was like, let's let that person over. And so, as we did, she crossed over in front of us and made it all the way over three more lanes to go right. I mean, she really was in the wrong place. And my daughter looks at me and said, I'm so glad we did that. And I was like, why? And she said, because if someone had done that for me, it would have made me feel like I was seen and that I had worth. And so, I've never, like that sticks in my head constantly. To be seen and to have worth is what we all need. And the tiniest little things can do that for us.   And so at that grocery store where we were going, a lady honked at me in the parking lot. Like I was walking and she just like blared on her horn, scared the living daylights out of me. And I was like, oh my gosh. But again, in that moment, I was like, wait a second. I can either have that, I'm either gonna fire up and be mad or I'm gonna be like, oh, I really am not seen. Either way, I'm going in a bad path or I can choose willingly to go, no. She's probably stressed out because she's not used to driving or maybe I scared her. She didn't see me. I don't know. And just reacts that way. And so, in that moment, I'm like letting it go, seeing her as a human being going in the grocery store.   And so, I go in, do my shopping. It's super packed in there. I go to the deli line, get my number, stand and wait and stand and wait. And as I'm waiting, who shows up next to me but the lady that honked at me, which if I hadn't let it go in the parking lot, I would have been like, oh, there's that lady in my head. But I wasn't. I was like, oh my gosh, there she is. And the guy calls my number and I feel her next to me and hear her sigh like, oh my gosh. And I look at her and she had forgotten to get her number. And the line was so long. And I was sitting there going, you know what? I've got margin in my day. And I took my number and handed it to her so happily. And she did what we all do. She refused it because kindness is risky. You may be rejected, okay? But again, if you're going into it willingly in the willingness that's based on your settled significance, that kind of rejection doesn't hurt because you're not rejected by the one who has called you by name. Not to over-spiritualize it.   But in that moment, I'm like, okay, no worries. But the deli guy is watching the whole thing. And so, I go to hand him the number and he looks at me and he serves her. And it was, I just can't even tell you how beautiful it was because she accepted it from him. I left because I was like, I don't want her feeling weird. I'm out of here and came back later. And it was so tiny and so beautiful. And it was like the greatest things of humanity were right there at the deli line in the grocery store. And I could tell you others, like even at the checkout, not on this occasion, but another one. Like what the checkers did to give grace to a woman who was so mean to them. And for them, like these two people to look at each other and go, man, she must be having a hard day and err on that. I mean, people are amazing. And it's like, dare we walk alongside each other? Dare we reach for the good? Dare we like just sink into the beauty of all that comes with things like your significance being eternally determined so that we can actually live in the freedom that surrounds you. All these opportunities that are around you every single day to be able to see the people and to treat the people next to you like human beings. It's really freeing and it's so beautiful. And it's a path paved with shalom peace. And it's amazing.   Laura Dugger: (33:56 - 34:22) Okay, that story is so touching. And I think it's because it's so apparent that that was the Holy Spirit and Jesus in you being Jesus to someone else. Because in scripture, we do see that it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance. And I just wonder what the other side of the story is. Your act of willing obedience and kindness. I wonder how that impacted her in a positive way.   Kay Wyma: (34:23 - 35:31) I don't know, but Laura, the coolest part is that I don't need to know. Like this is, again, through these things, that whole part exits. Like it doesn't matter at all. It's like that so much of the unseen is none of, I'll sit there and go, I can't believe he gave me something in that. Because the thing about any of these, when you give them out, it doesn't work like the world's economy where giving is actually a depletion. In God's economy, when you give, you're actually being filled. And so, it's like with a full tank, you walk away going, why did you allow me to be a part of that? Like, why would you have let me do that? Because I can't believe what you gave me through all of that. It's so amazing. Gosh, it just increases your capacity to trust exponentially. And so you have these little things like thankfulness that primes the pump. It's like, well, I'm going to get it going. And then the kindness. And then to be able to go to these places of mercy that involve very, very deep concepts like compassion, like forgiveness, like grace, like letting go of bitterness. These are aspects of God. They are not from us. It's like an invitation to experience God.   Laura Dugger: (35:31 - 35:38) What are some other ways that this peace project has changed the way that you live your life from this point forward?   Kay Wyma: (35:39 - 37:30) You know, almost with a spirit of expectancy and wonder and being able to see so many things that you haven't seen before. It's like it goes from black and white to technicolor. When I was in college, I actually had the opportunity to travel into West Berlin. This was a long time ago before the wall came down because there was the wall between East Berlin and West Berlin. But in order to get to West Berlin, you had to travel through East Germany. And it was so strange because literally on the train and everyone says this that did that back in those days, it was like you would go from colors to black and white. Like it was gray. They're literally the landscaped was gray. And then you would go from that gray into West Berlin that was like all colors and crazy and vibrant.   And that's what I feel like this does. It takes the gray and it makes it, the colors just come out spectacularly. And I think it is because you're choosing to not just believe, but you're acting on the belief which changes something which because you can't do that on your own strength. And so you're getting to experience this very mysterious aspect of God where he says, come to me, I will give you peace. I will give you joy. And I'm going to add that during this period, we probably lived through some of the hardest stuff that we have ever lived through in our life, just with very old past hurt that came and revisited in an extreme way. And it's amazing to me how full our days were on some of the hardest days we've ever experienced simply because these practices allowed us to look beyond and to live in peace and joy that paved even the hardest path.   Laura Dugger: (37:31 - 37:52) Well, I think that points to our good God, even in his timing that he invited you into this and you were willing to step in. And like you've said, it wasn't just something he did to you, but he offered this for you. And even through a hard time, that was such a gift.   Kay Wyma: (37:53 - 39:32) Yeah, which I could never have known that we would even be living that hard time when we started doing this. And it was definitely something that was given to us because I wasn't looking for it. Again, like I said, I had a rotten attitude when all this started and yet he met me there. Somebody said to me, how brilliant that you did this. Like, you know, you did thankfulness, then kindness, then mercy. And I was like, I did not do this. Like, I didn't make this up. This is what literally happened that morning. And for whatever reason, our curiosity was piqued and it was piqued enough to go, hey, you want to try? And what would happen?   And this, the book is the story of us trying and it really is a 30-day experiment where I go through the 30 days of like us doing it as a group and even include the group with these alongside call outs to where even the ladies that were doing it with us. And it was ladies just because it's a ladies Bible study. It doesn't mean that it's a woman thing or a guy, you know, not a guy thing. The consistency of, I can't believe how this has set me free. I didn't know I was entering into these places like this. I can't believe how healthy my mind is. You know, and again, people, if you have any issues with depression or that are deep that you need to get help, get help, please. You know, there is help out there. There are people that are gifted to be able to walk alongside us through very, very challenging situations which we were getting help along the way too. These practices will invite peace into your day on any day. I mean, just try it. Of course, I would love for people to get the book, but more than anything, just try it. I mean, these things are for you as much as they are for me.   Laura Dugger: (39:33 - 39:39) And if someone is willing to give it a try, what suggestions do you have for them?   Kay Wyma: (39:39 - 41:53) Yeah, it's so funny because I think when we hear like, oh, I have to do something for 30 days. I don't know about you, but I'm like, I can't add one more thing to my plate. And then I'm like 30 days. So, the first thing is just do it. Like just try it. And this is not something that you are going to have to give up anything or that it's going to be some burden or that you're gonna be trudging through just a hard journey. It will instantly be a gift to you. That's it. I still struggle with my rotten attitude going, no, it's really stubbornness that I'll go, oh, I'm not doing it. And then I'll think, what is wrong with you? You really know how great this is.   When the Lord was asked, what would you say is the greatest commandment? He instantly said, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and love others as yourself for these sum up all the law and the prophets. That's a pretty big deal. And so why? Because it's so good for you because it gets our eyes off ourselves because it puts into action our effort to believe that what he says is true. The belief, I love you. I see you. I know you. You're safe. I'm provided for you. It's so powerful. I know that to be true.   One of the gals that was in our book club has an eight-year-old daughter that hilariously picked this book up because her mother was reading it. And she called it Kay's Peace Project. She does not know me. She was going into a soccer camp, you know, and it's hot. A little girl that's her friend was being mean to her every day. And so by the last day she was getting out of the car. And that week, you know, she didn't want to get out because she didn't want to deal with this friend of hers that was being mean to her. As she was getting out on Friday, she turned to her mom as she got out of the car and she said, you know, I picked up Kay's Peace Project last night. She had landed on a day about mercy. And she said, I read about mysterious mercy. And she said, it made me realize that something may be going on in her friend's life that she doesn't know. And so, she said, I've decided that that's probably why she's being mean to me. And so, I really want to be nice to her today because I don't know what it is that's going on in her life. Eight years old.   Laura Dugger: (41:54 - 42:07) Wow. And that is so powerful. How it has the power to work in all of us. And so, if somebody wants to grab their own copy of The Peace Project or if they want to find you online, Kay, where would you direct them?   Kay Wyma: (42:08 - 42:49) Well, to KayWyma.com or I do love Instagram, but I'm just telling you, it's set your expectations low, people. Because it is, anything I've got is for whoever would like to participate in it or alongside because I do love living life together. And I would love for anybody to join along in that on those platforms or even through the books. And it's just such a privilege. And I just can't thank you enough for having me on and for your listeners even giving me a few moments to even hear whatever is the Lord has put on my heart today. And please share what's on your hearts with the people that are next to you, too. It's worth it.   Laura Dugger: (42:50 - 43:04) Well, it's been a joy to host you. And you probably remember from last time, we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, Kay, what is your savvy sauce?   Kay Wyma: (43:05 - 43:57) Okay. So, for this project is settled significance. And it is the idea to live in your settled significance. You don't have to get significance from anything around you even though the world would tell you that we need to like in whatever capacity is is like ask the question, where am I thinking I have to do this in order to be okay? Because that's this if then equation of the world. If you do this, then blah, blah, blah, blah. Settled significant operates off God's economy that says, because then, because I have declared you righteous, you are seen, you are known, you are whole, you are loved, you are enough, you belong. And to be able to live in those things, we fight for that right now. We really do. And we try to call out those things that are telling us otherwise.   Laura Dugger: (43:58 - 44:15) Well, Kay, thank you for fighting the good fight of faith and for sharing these practical ways to live out these biblical themes that really have eternal value of thankfulness and kindness and mercy. It has been a joy to host you as my guest.   Kay Wyma: (44:15 - 44:23) Oh, my gosh. You're so nice to host me. Thank you so much. And thank you for what you do. You're a huge encouragement to people every day. So, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (44:23 - 47:39) Thanks, Kay. One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

How to Improve EVERY Aspect of Your Life: An Interview with J.R. Briggs (Episode 297)   Proverbs 11:24 (MSG) The world of the generous gets larger and larger; the world of the stingy gets smaller and smaller.   *Transcription Below*   J.R. Briggs (DMin) possesses four passions: following Jesus, equipping and investing in hungry kingdom leaders, growing fruit on other people's trees, and creating good kingdom mischief. In short, his calling is to partner with people who are called to follow Jesus while they lead others.   In 2011 he started Kairos Partnerships, an organization committed to help leaders overcome their unique leadership challenges through leadership coaching, consulting, speaking, and writing.   For more than 15 years, J.R. served in pastoral roles in mega-churches, church plants and house church networks. Since starting Kairos Partnerships, he has served and invested in ministry leaders in over 40 denominations throughout North America. In addition to ministry leaders, he has invested in a wide variety of leaders, including business owners, college presidents, military leaders, Division 1 basketball coaches, and non-profit directors.   He serves as a guest instructor in the Master of Arts in Spiritual Formation program at Friends University and the Master of Arts in Leadership program at Taylor University. He has lectured, taught and spoken at over a dozen colleges, universities, and seminaries around the U.S.   He also serves as the Director of Leadership & Congregational Formation for The Ecclesia Network and as a National Trainer & Strategist for Fresh Expressions U.S.   In addition to writing several books on a wide variety of topics, he has also published articles in Christianity Today, Huffington Post, Preaching Today, American Bible Society, N.T. Wright Online, Missio Alliance, and Relevant Magazine.   He hosts the Resilient Leaders podcast.   J.R. and his wife Megan have two sons and live in the greater Philadelphia area. J.R.'s Website J.R.'s Book   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management   Questions and Topics We Cover: Can you contrast Jesus' teaching with field trips to the way we structure a typical Sunday morning in America?  Will you also share how you arrived at asking yourself two questions that have opened numerous doors for you? Once we put this into practice for ourselves, how can we begin to cultivate it in our children as well?   Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: 219. Training Our Children in Biblical Financial Stewardship with Matt Bell   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:44) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.   J.R. Briggs is one of the most intriguing humans I've encountered, and it's hard to sum up his bio, as he's had so many experiences in his past through various pastoral roles, and then he became the founder of Kairos Partnerships, where he invests in leaders. He's also a podcast host, in addition to his work as an author. His most recent book is The Art of Asking Better Questions, and it's summed up in the intro, where he writes, "I have a bone-deep conviction that all of us need to ask more questions and better questions. Doing so can change your life and the lives of those around you." So now we get to actually learn how to make this happen with my guest, Reverend Dr. J.R. Briggs.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, J.R.   J.R. Briggs: (1:44 - 1:45) Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to this, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (1:46 - 2:00) Well, I'd love to go back and first hear a little bit more of your origin story. So, do you attribute your love of questions and your skill for asking great questions more to nature or nurture?   J.R. Briggs: (2:01 - 5:04) That's a fantastic question. No one has ever asked me that, Laura. So, right off the bat, well done. I love good questions like this. I think it's a little bit of both, and I'm not just wimping out on that answer. Here's what I mean.   I grew up in a wonderful home, still great friends with both my parents, and my parents, especially my dad, they were great question askers, and I saw them model this really well in the home. And I think in previous generations, it was, you know, kids are to be seen but not heard. That was not how my parents operated. They very much said, "You know what, we want to know what you think." And so, dinner times were great. Even hearing the way, especially my father would ask questions of people in the lobby at church or our neighbors, or we'd be at some party, and the way he would ask questions, I would just listen and say, "Wow, this is fascinating, the kind of conversations that are happening because of this."   So, modeled really well, but also observed a lot, and more is caught than taught. And I observed my parents doing this really well. And I thought, these are really fun conversations to just eavesdrop in on as a kid. And then also, I began to notice that there were people that were really fun and lived inspiring lives, and they asked great questions. And I noticed the people that had, that lived really small, uninspiring lives, I realized they weren't asking very many questions. And I began to say, "Well, which kind of person do I want to be? I kind of want to be in the first group. Well, what's the difference? These people are asking questions, regular questions, quality questions." And I thought, "Ooh, I need to pay attention to this and actually lean in to do this more."   So, I often learned how to do it too. So, there was the nature piece, the nurture piece, or the nurture, the nature piece there, the nurture piece, I did study. I'm kind of a nerd. And so, I would watch people who ask great questions and say, "Why was that a good question? What did they do? Why did they ask it that way? How did they know to ask that question as opposed to something else?" And so that was really helpful.   But then I began to notice as I read my Bible, I got a red-letter edition of my Bible and began to notice how many red question marks there were. And I began to take a pen and circle all of the red questions, question marks that Jesus asked. And I thought, "Wow, the way the truth and the life, who had all the answers, yet he asked a ton of questions." So that sent me on a deep dive that eventually I studied. And my doctorate, my dissertation for my doctorate was on learning to equip leaders to ask better questions in the way of Jesus. And so, using him as that model. So, there's a very long answer, Laura, to a very short question, is it nature or nurture? I really believe it's both. And I hope I can continue to learn in my own life until my last breath to how to be a better question asker, because it's that powerful.   Laura Dugger: (5:04 - 5:57) Mm-hmm. I agree with that. And I love the humility in that response. Also, as you share it, it reminds me of a scripture from Proverbs 11:24, the Message version, which I believe previous guest Matt Bell had shared this as it relates to finances. But J.R., I hear it through your lifestyle of generosity with questions. And the verse says, "The world of the generous gets larger and larger. The world of the stingy gets smaller and smaller." So, I love how you illustrated that. But you're also the first person that I heard articulate this beauty of asking questions for connection rather than just for information. So, can you explain more of why questions are such a generous gift and an offering of hospitality?   J.R. Briggs: (5:58 - 8:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, one of the things that really hit me, I touched on this earlier, that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, the second member of the Trinity, who knows everything. Why would he ask so many questions? Well, he also said, "I only do what I see my Father doing." What did he see his Father doing? If you look in the Old Testament, God asks a ton of questions too. So, I said, "Wait a second. Okay. The all-knowing, all-powerful God of the universe, why does God ask so many questions when he already knows the answer?" And that drove me to say, maybe it wasn't just for information.   And I began to think about Adam and Eve in the garden and say, when he says, "Where are you?" It wasn't because God didn't know. And it wasn't a geographical question as much as I think it's a relational and theological question that he wants Adam and Eve to answer. And so, as a result of that, I said, "Why then would God do that?" Well, God already knows, but he desires connection with us. And then I thought, "Ooh, yeah, that isn't just God to us. There are times where I ask questions of my kids when they were younger, or of other little kids at church, where I know the answer already, but I'm asking it as a way of building trust and shared story and connection with them."   And I thought, yeah, there's real connection when it comes to questions. And when we do that, when we offer our full selves, the French philosopher, Simone Weil, she said, "Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity." And as a result of that, that's the hospitality piece. And I think, let's not forget that the word hospital is in the word hospitality, that our questions and our attention can actually be a form of healing that we offer to other people. When we think of hospitality, we often think of, I don't know, making a fresh pie or laying out doilies and sweeping the house before someone comes over. That can be part of it. But the real definition of hospitality is making new people feel comfortable in new situations. And so, what do good questions do? They help people who might feel new or an outsider feel like they're an insider. And I believe that's one of the beautiful benefits of questions where people say, "Man, thank you. No one has ever asked me that." Or "I feel seen. Wow, you really want to care. You care enough to know what I'm thinking." That is an unbelievable gift that we can give to others as a form of hospitality.   Laura Dugger: (8:36 - 8:55) And I think that illuminates what you even say up front in your book, that you do believe that these questions can change our life and the lives of those around us, and especially through this powerful book that you've written. So, can you elaborate on that claim?   J.R. Briggs: (8:56 - 10:33) Yeah, the dimensions of your life expand or contract depending upon the questions that you ask. So, when we refrain from asking good questions, our world gets smaller. And when we start to ask better questions, and more frequently, our worlds begin to expand. And so, what I tell people is we don't have a shortage of information. We have a shortage of wisdom and curiosity and wonder. And so, what we need to kindle in that is that desire for and that ability to ask the right questions at the right time for the right reason to the right people.   And if we want more information, we should just Google it. But if what we're after is wisdom and connection and engagement, we need questions. And questions are, I think we all would admit, Laura, questions are important. I don't think that we would realize just how powerful they actually are. And so, the goal of the book was to unleash and wake up the sleeping giants that exist and say, this can be used for good. There's so many, again, we don't have a shortage of information. But asking good questions is a lost art. And the goal is to try to help people realize its power, that it's more accessible. They're free. They can be used at any time. They don't have a shelf life. But we just need to cultivate the desire for it and then have some skills to lean in, because it really can be such an unbelievable gift. The questions that we ask often reveal the values that we hold. And so that's another way that we can press into that as well.   Laura Dugger: (10:34 - 10:49) Okay, so let's say that the desire is there. Maybe for all of us, probably the skill is a little lacking. How can we begin to get a little bit better at this or just get started with asking better questions today?   J.R. Briggs: (10:49 - 14:18) Yeah, well, we got to start, Laura, by admitting that there are a lot of obstacles that exist that our culture puts in front of us to make it hard to do that. One is we're in an attention-seeking age, right? I mean, the joke says enough about me, what do you think about me? And so, because we live in the social media, look at me, look at me reality that we're in, it's really hard because questions are the opposite. I'm putting the spotlight on you rather than on my own life. But we also are in a culture of great efficiency, and so questions feel inefficient. They feel really inefficient, like it slows things down. How many of us have been in a meeting and we're about to get up and someone says, "Any questions?" And someone, "Oh," and we just say, "No, no, no, we were just about to leave, you're slowing us down." And so that in the business world and in sales, that's the number one thing is questions. We got stuff to do and things to sell. But if we can just slow down, it's better.   But those are some of the obstacles that exist. So, if we're assuming we have curiosity, we have wisdom, we have humility, and we have courage, which are the four components. If those are there, then there are some things that we can engage in that can help us and several practices, like the simplest practice we can do when we hear a good question, write it down. A lot of people feel like two things. They have to come up with all the questions themselves. You don't. I love questions. I'm pretty good at questions, but I don't generate all my questions. I've read them on billboards or heard them on a podcast or overheard somebody in line at Starbucks behind me. And you go, "Man, that's a really good question. Write it down." We think we're going to remember later, Laura, and that's the second thing. We won't. We have to write it down. And I just encourage people, open up the notes section of your phone and just have something on there that says great questions. When you hear of one, think of one, read of one in a good novel, write it on the list. You can always return to it later. So, just awareness, number one, that my radar is up, listening for good questions, can be a great start.   And then also just to reflect later to say, "What was the best question I asked today or in that conversation or in that meeting or over dinner with my family? What was the best question I asked?" So, that's a little bit of reflection, but also preparation. Anytime we go into a meeting, anytime we go into any sort of connection, even if it's coffee with a friend, to always see if I can come with two questions ahead of time. Now, sometimes I write them down, sometimes I don't. I may not even get a chance to ask them, but just coming prepared where I say, "Oh, I'm meeting with my friend, Sam. Oh, Sam's dad just had significant surgery. So, here's an important question. Sam, how's your dad doing? And how are you doing as you care for your dad?" It's a little bit of preparation. It's not an hour. I'm just spending five minutes on my drive to the coffee shop to say, "My first question is going to be, Sam, how's your dad? And how are you doing caring for your dad?" So, just a little bit more thought. It doesn't require three times the amount of effort. Sometimes it's just five or 10% more effort and intentionality that can improve our question asking.   Laura Dugger: (14:19 - 16:29) So much thoughtfulness there. Appreciate that.   And now a brief message from our sponsor.   With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, and Washington, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. And make sure you check out their newest offering; the McKinley located in Pekin is a new construction addition to their platinum collection. Featuring nine-foot ceilings, large spacious layouts, beautiful finishes such as quartz countertops and garages, you won't want to miss this outstanding new property.   In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect. And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. If you want to become part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department. So, we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them. Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.   Clearly J.R., Jesus has been a role model for asking questions. So, can you contrast what you describe as Jesus's field trips that he takes his disciples on versus the way that you view Sunday mornings in a lot of churches in America? Can you kind of contrast those two?   J.R. Briggs: (16:29 - 18:42) Yeah, oftentimes when I'm talking to pastors or leaders, faith leaders, I remind them of this. But yeah, Jesus loved to take his listeners on three field trips, three kinds. First one, he took them on physical field trips. We see that where Jesus says, "You know, look at the birds of the air, look at the lilies of the field," or "Look at the woman putting in two mites in the temple treasury." Life is a classroom. And so, he loved taking people on literal field trips.   Number two, he took them on emotional field trips by telling them stories, not in abstract ways of thinking, but the kingdom of God is like a woman kneading dough. It's like a fisherman who caught fish. It's like a father with two sons. And I think we're wrapped up in that when we watch a good movie, and we cry and laugh and we're scared. Those are all because a beautiful story did something to us. It took us on some sort of emotional field trip.   And then third is a mental field trip, which we're talking about here by asking questions. Jesus asked a ton of questions. And as a result of that, got people thinking in new ways. Now, if the way, the truth and the life, if anyone had the right to just give answers, it would be Jesus. But instead, he chose to ask a lot of questions. And so those three field trips, literal by going on walks, getting outside of a classroom, the mental field trip of asking questions and the emotional field trips of telling stories. Jesus did that all the time. Once you know that and you read the gospels, you'll see it everywhere.   The problem is, as you were referring to, Laura, on Sunday mornings, what do we do? We sit people in a church in pews. Almost all of the teaching or formation happens in the same room. Instead of telling stories, we give abstract information. And instead of asking questions, we just give answers. And then we sit around and wonder, "Why is no one changing?" And my gentle encouragement is, what would it look like if we actually learned to teach others the way Jesus actually taught? Imagine that. So, it's a bit of a stretch because culturally we're kind of drawn in to the way we've always done it in church. And yet oftentimes Jesus did almost the opposite of the way in which we teach today.   Laura Dugger: (18:44 - 18:55) And so, if you see that as an opposite, do you have any practical ideas of just a small tweak that we could make on Sunday mornings to be more like Jesus?   J.R. Briggs: (18:56 - 20:32) Sure. I always try to say, is there any way I can get people's bodies or their hearts up out of the seat? So, "Hey, I want you to stand up and turn to the person next to you." Or, "Hey, we're going to move around the room." Some of you say, "What? We would never do that at our church." And I would say, take a risk. Jesus did all sorts of things that surprise people. So, how can I get their hearts and their bodies up out of their seat? Number one.   Number two, can I tell a few more stories than I have in the past in my teaching or preaching or Sunday morning? And then also, can I engage with questions by asking them questions at the beginning? Can I leave them with some reflection questions in the bulletin or on the website the next week? Or can I actually have them asking questions of each other or of the text itself? And so oftentimes, why do I feel like I'm the one that has to speak the whole time when I'm preaching? What if instead I allow them to ask questions of each other, of God, and even of myself? And sometimes when I preach, I allow the last five or 10 minutes for people to ask questions about the text to myself and everyone else. Now, is that a change? Yeah. Would that freak out some churches? Maybe. But it can be a way that people walk away and say, "Wow, I learned, I was engaged, I was formed, and I encountered God in a new way that I haven't in the past." Which is the whole goal, that we don't just learn more about the Bible, is that we know the God of the Bible. That's the whole point of why we gather together as a church.   Laura Dugger: (20:33 - 20:46) And that would be so memorable. But also, as you're speaking about stories, are you willing to share the story of one of the times that you asked a question, and it turned out better than you could have ever asked or hoped for?   J.R. Briggs: (20:47 - 22:27) Yeah. I could think of several, but sometimes just asking people, "Why is that?" Just as a follow-up. It's amazing what can spill out. And I go, "Oh, that confronted my biases. That confronted my assumptions and what I thought about them." And so sometimes just asking some of that has been incredibly helpful to just ask that follow-up question.   I won't tell the whole story that I recounted in the book, but oftentimes when there are tears, it was Charles Spurgeon that said that tears are like liquid prayers. And so, when people are showing some emotion, I sometimes will say to them, even if they're not a follower of Jesus, even if they're not religious, "I'm curious. It's been said that tears are liquid prayers. Can you put words to the prayers that your face is praying right now?" And I've had some of the most unbelievable conversations where people can identify the prayers that their face is praying. And even in my own life, where I just step back and go, "Why am I, why was I so moved by that novel? Why was I so moved by that movie? Or what just happened in front of me? Or why, where are these tears coming from?" As Frederick Buechner said, we'd be best to pay attention to our tears. And so that question of what are the liquid prayers, can I put words to the prayer that my face is praying has been an unbelievably meaningful and eye-opening thing for me and also with people that I've been with.   Laura Dugger: (22:29 - 22:37) Will you also share about how you arrived at asking two questions that have opened numerous doors for you?   J.R. Briggs: (22:38 - 25:21) Yeah. Yeah. When I was in college, I had the privilege of studying in Israel for the semester. This is fall of my junior year. Absolutely loved it. And our class was on a four-day field trip up around the Sea of Galilee. One night I was down by the lake and happened to notice as the sun was about to set that there was a big fishing vessel that had just come in. And I had always wanted to go fishing on the Sea of Galilee, not just take a boat, not just see fishermen, but like be on the boat and fish with fishermen. I don't even love fishing myself, but I just wanted to experience what Jesus and his disciples experienced on the lake.   And there was a big industrial ship that came in. They brought in their day's catch. And I thought, "Oh, I should ask them if I can go fishing with them." And Laura, and then, you know, the realistic brain in me said, "Why would they ever allow a college, American college student and a study abroad program to go fishing with them tomorrow?" And I had these two questions that hit me, Laura. "Well, what's the worst they could say? No, or heck no, or get out of here. You're crazy." And number two, "Can I handle that? If they were to say that." Those two questions, I thought, "You know, I can handle it now. Let me ask what's the worst he could say. Let me ask."   So, I went up and I said, "Excuse me, can I talk to your captain?" And they said, "Menachem is over here." So, I introduced myself to him and I said, "Menachem, I've always wanted to go fishing on the Sea of Galilee. I'll pay you $50. If I can go fishing for the day, use me as, as I mean, any work me to death. If you want, like I'm here, I just want to." And he looked at me, he said, "I don't want your money." He said, "Join me tomorrow morning at 6 a.m. And you can come fishing with us." And I walked away and went, "Unbelievable. My dream is coming true." And I had an unbelievable day, but I realized I can't say no for someone else. What's the worst they could say? No. Can I just ask and handle it if they said no? Yep, I can handle it. Those two questions, Laura, have shaped me immensely throughout my lifetime. I've really, I've done that in a lot of different ways. And a lot of times people say no, and I can handle that. But a lot of times people said yes. And some doors have opened simply because I asked. And I actually think of that verse often, Laura, where it says you do not have because you do not ask. It's not name it and claim it prosperity gospel. But we just have to realize that sometimes we just need to ask to put ourselves out there and see what people say.   Laura Dugger: (25:23 - 25:55) That is so good. And I have applied those questions since reading that in your book, even as I reach out to ask you if you would do two recordings. So, I'm so grateful that that you said yes, I'm delighted that today's not our only conversation. But I'm curious also, J.R., when you had that experience, a lot of us may not ever get to go fish on the Sea of Galilee. So, did you learn anything that brought the Bible to life or anything about Jesus or anything that you can share with us from that incredible experience?   J.R. Briggs: (25:55 - 27:37) Oh, there's so many, but I'll limit it to one. When we started out that morning, the sea was so calm. I mean, it was like glass. It was beautiful. The sun was rising, not a cloud in the sky. And it was great. But I've always wondered these like storms. You know, the Sea of Galilee is not a sea. It's a lake. It's 10 miles by six miles. It looks like a harp. And that's why it's called Lake Kinneret. In Hebrew, that means harp. So, it's harp lake is the way that we could call it. But I thought it's still a lake. How can there be storms that would have professional fishermen that would be screaming, thinking they were going to die? How is that possible?   Well, wouldn't you know it, Laura? As beautiful as it was, the clouds rolled in. And then later that afternoon, there was a squall of a storm. I have never been in more intense in my life. And it happened right there. Now we're in a maybe two-ton, three-ton fishing vessel. But even that, we had to go below deck because it was so brutal. The waves, the wind, we couldn't see more than 10 feet in front of us. And I thought, "Ah, now I get it. If I'm just in a wooden boat with my fellow, you know, disciples here, I can see why this could get a little panicky." And that was, I think, a little God wink for me to be able to experience both the peace and calm, but also this treacherous storm and go, "Ah, now I won't read my Bible the same again when I hear about the, you know, the disciples freaking out with the storm or seeing Jesus walk on the water approaching them." So, that's one of many, but that sticks out to me a great deal that I got to experience a very intense storm.   Laura Dugger: (27:38 - 28:27) That is so incredible. Even just going back, so those two questions that you were willing to ask led to this incredible experience. And now people from around the world get to benefit from the lessons that you learned at that time. So, I think you're giving us so much encouragement for asking questions.   Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.   What happens to our brain or within our brain when we're asking or being asked a question?   J.R. Briggs: (28:28 - 30:19) Yeah, this was an incredibly fun part of the research for me was what does this do neurobiologically to us? And so, what neurologists have found is when they put nodes all over your brain to kind of see how the brain activity happens, when you're given information, your brain lights up. But what they found is when someone is asked a question, your brain explodes like fireworks, the synapses that are firing, and it just lights up like crazy, like fireworks in the night. And one of the things they said, as much as we think we can multitask, we can't. We do a lot of switching, task switching, but not multitasking. But they said what happens is they use the word hijack. You can hijack someone's brain when you actually are asking a question of someone, even if it's for two seconds.   And so, if I were to ask your listeners, Laura, "What are the color of the shoes you're wearing right now?" Whether your listeners liked it or not, I just hijacked their brain for a split second there, and they went, "What are the color of my shoes?" And so that's immense amount of power to, quote unquote, hijack someone's brain. So, we need to use that power wisely. But it's an immense amount of power that we can have when we ask someone a question, not just give them an answer, which I love when current neurobiological research matches up with scripture and with the way Jesus taught. How did Jesus teach? A ton of questions. What happened? He engaged with people. They participated with him. They were forced to learn and be participants, not just talking theoretically about faith. And I thought, isn't that just like Jesus? He knew how our brains are wired. And so, he uses questions as a way of maximum connection, challenge, engagement, and formation.   Laura Dugger: (30:20 - 30:43) Wow. And you've cultivated, like you say, this holy curiosity. So, I am curious for you, J.R., when you're in a conversation and you find yourself asking question after question, have you been in a situation like this where they don't reciprocate, they don't ask any questions back? And how do you handle that internally and externally?   J.R. Briggs: (30:44 - 32:41) Yeah, it's hard because we live in a culture that hasn't modeled that well to ask good questions. And sometimes it's been hard. And I admit that sometimes there's a sense of loneliness. When I have a lunch meeting and my wife will say, "How was your lunch meeting today?" We have a code word where I say either waiter or waitress. And it means the waiter or waitress came and took my plate away because I was done with my meal before they had taken one or two bites of their food. And oftentimes that happens where we leave a meal and we realize, "I don't think I was asked a single question this whole lunch." Or we go to a dinner party, no one asked me a single question. And that can be really hard.   And I love asking people questions. And it's not like I'm just ramming it down their throats to ask question after question like Elf with his brother walking through Central Park where he's just rattling off question after question. I was giving pause, I was taking a bite of my food, allowing them to ask a question or two, and they never did. And sometimes people say, "Well, I don't really know, I'm not good at questions." And I say, one of the simplest things you can do is what I call the way question, W-A-Y. It's just to say, "What about you?" I've been talking. What about you? To just hit the ball back over the net and to allow us to engage in some conversational pickleball. It's been on my side, let me hit it. Now it's on your side and you hit it back. That's how all healthy relationships exist. And so, it's been a little disappointing at times to realize you can go, and I'm sure you and others have experienced that. That's really hard. And to have people that can just say, "What about you? What do you think? Have you ever experienced that?" Or "I have another question for you." That's how healthy relationships are cultivated when there's that back and forth in conversation.   Laura Dugger: (32:42 - 32:51) Okay. And so, if we want to cultivate that back-and-forth conversation, can you just share a few more tips for ways that we can level up our questions?   J.R. Briggs: (32:52 - 34:24) Sure. Yeah. There's a unique, almost universal principle when it comes to question asking. If you ask a generic unthoughtful question, you will almost always get a generic unthoughtful answer. "How are you?" "Fine." "How's your weekend?" "Good." But if you ask a thoughtful, specific, engaging question, you almost always get a thoughtful, specific, engaging answer. It's as predictable as a communist election. It's amazing how that works, where we can just, if we can just level up.   So, if a lazy question would be, "How was your weekend?" I encourage people to say, what would 10 or 15 percent of a more thoughtful, specific, or focused question be? So, you could say, "Of your whole weekend, how would you describe your weekend in two or three adjectives?" That's a little bit different than just, "How was your weekend?" Or, "Hey, how are you doing?" That's good. You might say, "What has been the most interesting thing about your day so far?" It just takes a little bit more intentionality. When you ask it that way, you won't get the fine, good. You'll get the, you know, "I had a really interesting sales meeting today at 10 a.m. You know, I bumped into my neighbor, and we had the best conversation at the mailbox." Those are the kinds of answers you get because we ask the more specific, thoughtful question. We'll get more specific and thoughtful answers. So, that's what I encourage people to do. Just level up to be just a little bit more pointed by 10 or 15 percent and see what happens.   Laura Dugger: (34:26 - 34:40) Okay. So, hopefully we're all going to put this into practice. But then also, if we have children in our home, what can we do to be teaching them this same goal of reciprocity and asking great questions?   J.R. Briggs: (34:40 - 37:02) Yes. I'm so glad you brought this up, Laura. There's so much that we can do. I try to do this. We try to do this with our kids when they were younger. Our kids are 19 and 16 now and we still engage in good questions with them. But when they were little, we would do things. I would crawl into bed with each of them at bedtime and we would do question of the night. And so, I would say, "You get to ask dad any question you want and then I get to ask you any question that you want." And so, age appropriate, you know, what's your favorite ice cream color or ice cream flavor or your favorite color? But sometimes they would pull out some really fascinating ones. Like one time, my youngest son said, "Dad, what does God smell like?" And it just made me laugh. I just thought, what a great question from a five- or six-year-old about that. And so just being intentional there at bedtime has been really good.   Car time is really important. And I really try to see if I can ask some questions that I can't ask in other places because now I've got their full attention. We're in the car together. And even as my sons are now older, when they're in the car together, something about staring out the windshield together to be able to talk through some things has been really good. It could be about school, could be about life, could be something trivial, but to know that this is a place where we can talk. And so, car time, bedtime, and the last one I'll give is dinner time. We have a big chalk wall next to our dining room table. And we'll just randomly put up questions, thoughtful questions. And then we'll sometimes say after prayer, "Okay, boys, when they were little, you know, you each get to pick one question off the wall that we talk about tonight." And it just became a real easy way. And you can make up one if you want, or there are questions here. We also found a deck of cards that actually had questions on each one. It was like a questions deck. And so, we'll say, "Great, like you can pick off the wall, you can make up your own, or just pick a question that's in the deck." And just doing that where everybody got a chance to share around the table became such a way, such a rich conversation but a way to remind them questions are okay, encouraged, and a wonderful part of being a part of a family.   Laura Dugger: (37:03 - 37:32) Those are such great ideas. I love that and that we can implement some of that right away. But as we're starting to wind our time down together, I would love to hear one more story about a time that a question dramatically changed the outcome of a friendly gathering that you write about on the back patio of a Capitol Hill home in Washington, D.C. Yeah, I remember reading this story, Laura, and I was so moved.   J.R. Briggs: (37:32 - 39:52) I was moved to tears that I ran over to my wife and I said, "Listen to this story." And we both just sat there crying. Yeah, these families were on the back porch on a wonderful summer evening enjoying some stuff on the grill. And all of a sudden a gunman came up behind one of the teenage girls and held a gun to her head and said, "Nobody move, give me your money or I'm going to shoot." Everyone froze, rightfully so, the terror that they experienced. And one woman just blurted out the first thing that came to her mind. She said, "Why don't you sit down and have some wine with us?" Which is not something that has ever come to my mind if someone were to walk in and rob me. And sure enough, he put his gun in his belt and sat down and had some wine. And he said, "Boy, this is really good wine." And I said, "Why don't you enjoy some more to eat?" And then afterwards, she said, "Can I give you a hug?" And the guy was totally startled. Yeah. And then afterwards, everyone else decided to give him a hug. And as they enjoyed food, you know, they're all tense and not sure what to do or what's going on. At the end, he said, "Can I have a group hug together?" And then he slipped out the back and even the glass, the wine glass that he had, it wasn't even broken. He just set it up right behind the back gate.   And I just was so moved by that. Like, "Do you want a glass of wine? Do you want a hug?" Not things that would come to my mind, but it was so jolting and surprising. I think it humanized him. And before he left, the robber said, "I think I've come to rob the wrong house tonight." It's amazing what a question can do. That was a question of immense hospitality. You're welcome here. That's the last thing that this robber ever expected. So, I just love that story. I love that story because it reminds us once again how powerful questions actually are.   Laura Dugger: (39:53 - 40:09) And I think it illustrates at the heart of questions is love. And that motivates so much of the work that you get to do, J.R. So, can you just share a little bit more about the work you do get to do and share how we can be connected after this conversation?   J.R. Briggs: (40:10 - 41:07) Sure. Yeah. I've been a pastor for 15 years, but in 2011, I started what's called Kairos Partnerships. And it was passionate about leaders because leadership can be lonely, overwhelming, and sometimes leaders feel ill-equipped. And so actually our organization was started based on three questions. Who pastors the pastor? Who leads the leader? Who shepherds the shepherd? So, we work with some pastors, but we work with all sorts of entrepreneurs and businesspeople and Chick-fil-A operators and college presidents and division one men's basketball coaches, anyone who's following Jesus, but leading others. And so, we do that through coaching, through consulting, through writing, speaking, spiritual direction. And so, our team, I have a wonderful team, and the team really walks alongside of leaders who are wanting to be equipped so they can lead with clarity and confidence moving forward.   Laura Dugger: (41:08 - 41:27) I love that. Well, we will put a link to your website and the show notes for today's episode, but J.R., you may be familiar. We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   J.R. Briggs: (41:28 - 42:03) One of the prayers that I pray regularly is, "Lord, would you grant me wisdom, courage, and compassion?" And all three of those are important because if I have wisdom and courage, but no compassion, I'm careless. If I have wisdom and compassion, but no courage, I'm riskless. And if I have compassion and courage, but no wisdom, that can be reckless. But if I have wisdom, courage, and compassion together, that's priceless. And so, I just try to pray that regularly because I say, "Lord, I want to be a wise, compassionate, courageous person for you." And I would encourage your listeners to pray that prayer for wisdom, courage, and compassion as well.   Laura Dugger: (42:05 - 42:20) Those are great words that I would use to describe you, J.R. And you are humble and warm and engaging. And I have greatly appreciated your book. I've already told people it's my favorite book that I've read in recent history.   J.R. Briggs: (42:20 - 42:22) So, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (42:22 - 42:31) Well, thank you. That's very kind of you. Yes, very easy to compliment it. But thank you for being my guest, and I look forward to hosting you again next time.   J.R. Briggs: (42:31 - 42:33) Sounds great. Looking forward to that as well.   Laura Dugger: (42:35 - 45:49) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Raising Future HEALTHY Adults with Elizabeth Pehrson (Episode 296)   Hebrews 12:11 NIV “No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.”   *Transcription Below*   Elizabeth Pehrson is a speaker, podcaster and founder of The Exchange. She's a yellow sanguine, who is full of energy and lives life wide-open! She loves Jesus and meaningful connections. Elizabeth is married to David and mother of EIGHT children, who range from high school to graduated from college.   Follow her online:  Instagram: @long_game_parenting or @octomama or @theexchangeus Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/elizabeth.m.pehrson   Thank you to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are a handful of habits in the home that you see as most essential for families so that they all can experience a joyful life together? What natural consequences and strategic discipline can you offer as ideas for teens living at home? As parents, what else can we do now to help our kids reach maturity and independence as adults?   Previous Guests from The Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: 74 Effective Parenting for Toddlers Through College with Wife, Mother to 8, and The Exchange Founder, Elizabeth Pehrson Part 1  75 Responding to God's Stirring with Elizabeth Pehrson, Founder of The Exchange, Part Two Inspiring Perspective in Parenting with Kay Wyma (Episode 164) Stories of God's Upside Down Economy with Kristen Welch (Episode 174)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11) ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:18) ‍ ‍ Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. ‍ ‍ I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage, while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org slash savvy. ‍ ‍ My returning guest for today is Elizabeth Pehrson, and if possible, we are going to get even more practical than we did last week, as we're going to discuss ways to actually enjoy parenting, while simultaneously preparing our children to launch as faithful and healthy adults someday. ‍ ‍ Here's our chat. ‍ ‍ Welcome back again to The Savvy Sauce, Elizabeth. I'm so excited to be here. ‍ ‍ This is fun. It's always a joy to get a chat with you, and we're going to go even more practical today, but do you mind sharing some disclaimers about that first? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (1:32 - 1:57) ‍ ‍ Not at all. You know, when I was growing up, I grew up in the church, and I really looked at "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he's old, he will not depart from it," as a promise. And it really is a principle. And so as much as we want it to be A plus B equals C, it's not always that way. There are certain principles that we are to follow and God's asked us to, and so I think we need to focus on that and leave the rest to him. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (1:57 - 2:28) ‍ ‍ That's so good. So, keeping that in mind, but then also hearing wise tips that we can hopefully implement. How do you think we can teach our children the importance of reciprocity, such as encouraging them to ask other people questions rather than just focusing the conversation on themselves, or encouraging them to do chores around the house, rather than just expecting their parents to do all the work or over function for them? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (2:29 - 6:07) ‍ ‍ Oh, yeah, this one's right up my alley. I love this question so much. John F. Kennedy, you know, gave his famous speech, "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." And I think in the same way, we want each family member to ask not what can you do for me, but what can I do for the family. And we believe that wholeheartedly. ‍ ‍ And so, because of that, we started assigning age-appropriate chores at the age of three. And they have a chore every single day of the week, except for Sunday, even when they're busy, even when they have baseball, football, lacrosse, didn't matter what it was. We have this whiteboard in our home. And it's like the motherboard of all things in our family. And it's got on the top part of it, it has our calendar appointments, practices, games, meetings, you know, meals for the week, like everything you can imagine that it takes to run our family is at the top part. And then the second part of the whiteboard, we have a section that says, “because we clothe and feed you, and then it has their names underneath that. ‍ ‍ And so, when they leave for school, I look at the calendar, I look at everything that needs to be gotten done that day or that week for the family. And then I delegate it to each of the children. And so, I would assign them each a chore. And so, when they would get home from school, it was right there where they would walk in and put their backpacks down and they knew to look at their chore. And they knew that it had to be finished before dinner. And it made it so easy because there was no nagging, there was no reminding, there was no, you know, begging them to do it and following up, it was just so much a part of each of their day, just like going to school or brushing their teeth, it was something they knew they had to do. ‍ ‍ And in addition to that, in our home, when our children turn eight, we have this rule that you are no longer a consumer, but you are a contributor. So, at the age of eight, they have to start doing all their own laundry, washing their own sheets, and lots of other substantially harder chores. And then at nine, they have to start mowing the yard, they start cooking and things that actually really contribute to the family as a whole. ‍ ‍ And, you know, in the last episode, I talked a lot about modeling for our kids, you know, what we want them to learn. And as far as the, you know, talking about asking important, I mean, having them ask questions and reciprocity, it's the same thing as to you have to model it, right? You have to model that for your children. And so let them hear you ask the cashier how her day's going, you know, even if it embarrasses them, or, you know, how you speak to the waiter or the waitress, let them see you notice the neighbor struggling with something in their yard. Like let them watch you thank their father for taking the car to get the oil changed or taking the trash out just simple things like that. You know, something that our mentors taught us that we implemented with our children right away. ‍ ‍ And this was I cannot emphasize the impact that this had on our children enough. But when somebody anybody, but particular an adult asked you a question, you look them in the eyes, you answered their question. And then you responded with a question, you ask them a question that was a game changer. I can't tell you how many bus drivers, teachers, coaches said, “I've never had a student asked me how my weekend was.” I've never once, when they get on the bus asked me, ”How am I doing today? How was my day?” ‍ ‍ And again, it's not for any like praise or anything like that. But my point is, it's so countercultural that it stands out. And it's so important to have your children learn from a young age what it looks like to look an adult in the eye and ask her a question. If they can't do that, when they're older, they'll never be able to advocate for themselves. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (6:08 - 6:21) ‍ ‍ I love all things countercultural. I think because a lot of times it does point back to Jesus, just even somebody experiencing that and having a wow factor. Ultimately, it's because the goodness of the Lord that they've just experienced. ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (6:22 - 6:23) ‍ ‍ Absolutely, absolutely. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (6:23 - 6:38) ‍ ‍ So, do you have maybe a handful of habits in the home that you see as most essential for families so that everyone living there can enjoy and experience a joyful life together? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (6:40 - 9:00) ‍ ‍ Oh, I'm sure that we do. I think joy in a home is rarely accidental. It's cultivated, it's intentional. And I would just say, ask what brings your family joy, and then do more of that. It's most likely going to be different for everybody. And I can only speak for us. But what we loved, what we did, family dinners around the dinner table were non-negotiable. ‍ ‍ There were seasons around the dinner table, that part was negotiable, because there were seasons, like we had four boys playing football. And so, we would have practices five nights a week and four games on Saturday. And so, we would take the dinner to the ballpark, and we would literally sit there as a family, because I wasn't going to constantly never have family dinner just for the six months in the fall, or winter, or whatever. But we used dinner time to ask intentional questions, to laugh, to tell stories. We joked, we role-played, that was a big one for us. ‍ ‍ Just as a family, we would do that together. And probably the best thing that we did, and the thing that we still do, is we make things fun. We play games, really fun ones. Not that board games aren't fun, those are fun. But instead of, our kids are grown now, and for Easter, they will all come home, and I will have created games out of Easter eggs with all different types. Not going to find them, but just different types. I'll line up 20 Easter eggs with different colors, and then the first person, they get 10 seconds to look at it. And then the first person that can replicate it with those colors. Things like that, what was in the Easter eggs, questions, that kind of stuff. ‍ ‍ One year, we did an Easter egg hunt, where we tied two people together. One was on the back, and the one below was blindfolded. So, the one on the back had to tell them where to go, and what to do. Or we leg-tied their legs together. Just things to make it creative or fun. At Christmas, we always play reindeer games. It's my kids' favorite thing that we do. We've often gotten in inflatables, and we've done an Easter egg hunt that way, where everyone's wearing these huge inflatables, or we play a kickball game. And that was our Christmas card this last year. But just anything that wants to make them want to participate, right? Want to have them want to come home. So that's what I would say. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (9:01 - 9:18) ‍ ‍ I love it. And I don't remember the direct quote. It was from Bob Goff. But just saying how the more outlandish it is, or the more that you add variety or break from the norms, that's what they're going to remember. So, I'm sure your kids have incredible memories of all those holidays. ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (9:19 - 9:19) ‍ ‍ Yes. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (9:20 - 9:38) ‍ ‍ I hope so, anyway. Oh, I'm sure that we'll have to steal some of those. But do you also have any stories to share for the payoff now that you're experiencing? Because when your children were little, you started them off with focusing on chores and hard work. ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (9:38 - 9:39) ‍ ‍ How long do you have? ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (9:40 - 9:42) ‍ ‍ Give everything you got. ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (9:42 - 14:13) ‍ ‍ Okay. Chores for children when they are young, it has proven to be the single biggest indicator of success when they're older. Hands down. Chores, specifically hard chores, they teach your kids responsibility. They teach them resourcefulness. It instills in them confidence. It instills in them capability. It instills in them competence. And I could give you example, after example, after example of how I've seen this payoff for my children. And I would say even in some ways, more importantly, how I have seen it negatively impact their friends, whose parents did not require them to work at home when they were younger. ‍ ‍ I remember my oldest son went off to college, and he called me after orientation and he's a man of few words, doesn't say thank you very often. And he said, "Mom, I have to tell you something." And I said, "What?" And he said, "You know, this is a pretty hard school to get into. And the people are competent. They're smart." He said, "I have never in my life seen a group of individuals that are so incapable of doing anything for themselves." He's like, "We're standing in line to get our, what's the ID, you know, their picture taken." He said, "Kid after kid on their phone. Hey, I don't, I don't have a credit card. I don't have a debit card. I don't know how to do this." He said, "I mean, and then he gets to college and it's like, they don't know how to get their oil changed. They don't know how to, you know, make their own doctor's appointment." And he thanked me. He's like, "I'm sorry. I resisted it when I was younger, but I just want to say thank you." ‍ ‍ And, you know, my daughter Libby called me one day and she said, "Mom, you know, you're not going to believe this." And I said, "What?" And so, she tells me of the story of her roommate, and her roommate had not left campus in six weeks. And so, she asked her, she said, "Hey, I thought you had a car here." And she said, "I do." And she said, "Well, why don't you ever leave?" And she said, "Well, I don't have gas." And she said, "Well, do you need money?" And she said, "Well, no, I don't need money." You know, she said, "I thought maybe you needed gas money." She said, "No." And she said, "Well, then what's going on?" She goes, "I've never put gas in my car." And that's not a chore, but that is a basic skill. Think about that, dropping your child off to college with a car and never having shown them or made them get their own gas. ‍ ‍ And then she called me a couple of weeks later. And she said to me, "Mom, did you know it's possible not to know how to hand wash dishes?" And I said, "Well, that's not possible. What are you talking about?" She said, "Well, she was just buying new dishes, plastic dishes. She was buying them because she didn't know how to wash them." And so, she said, "I said to her, hey, like you can just wash your dishes." She goes, "We don't have a dishwasher." And she said, "So I had to show her how to use soap and water to wash her own dishes." I mean, I could go on and on and on. ‍ ‍ I mean, I have another daughter that went off to college, and we were at the very first day moving them in and the mom was barking orders, telling everyone what to do. And after about 10 minutes, I was like, I went outside in the hallway, and I just sat down and removed myself. And her husband looks at me and he goes, "Wow, you learned quickly." And I said, "What does that mean?" And he said, "Get out of her way and let her do it." And I said, "Well, what about your daughter?" He goes, "Oh, she's never done anything for herself. She does everything for her." ‍ ‍ We got in the car to go home. And I just said to my husband, I said, "It's going to be really hard for our daughter because this girl's never done anything for themselves." I mean, I could give you story, after story, after story, but you know, when you require your children to put in hard work when they're really young, you know, they don't panic when life requires effort. Later on, they aren't entitled to comfort. They aren't entitled to other people doing things for them. You know, they know how to contribute, you know, wherever they land, whether it's in a dorm room, a house or, you know, college house or beyond, you know, my kids joke with me. They were like, "Mom, this can be a gift or a curse knowing how to do everything." And I said, "Well, what do you mean?" They're like, "Well, nobody else knows how to do everything. And they know that we do. So, they just want us to do it." And I was like, "Sorry about that. You know, sorry, you have to take care of it." ‍ ‍ But again, it's like, we are trying to train our kids up for independence, not to be dependent on us. And they go off to college or they graduate college, and they're already going to have first, like so many first being away from home, sleeping with a stranger in their same room, your dorm room, like so many things are going to have to navigate. And then do you want them to have to figure out how to do laundry, how to do dishes, how to I mean, no, it's like, wow, chores instill that. And then when they're really young. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (14:14 - 14:23) ‍ ‍ So, did you and your husband sit down and map out everything that you wanted them to know? Or how did you come up with these chores? And what are some more examples? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (14:24 - 16:09) ‍ ‍ Oh, yeah. And it's so interesting. It's so interesting, because I thought about this when I was thinking about our time together. But there's a book that we read. Well, there's a couple of books that we read that were pretty impactful. But one of them was called Cleaning House by Kate Wills Weima. And so, her 12 things, the idea of the book is to think about all the things you want to know your children know how to do and know how to do well when they leave home. And then you take one month and you just focus on that, that specific thing. And so, we sat down and her 12 things weren't our 12 things. Some of them were, but some of them were not. And so, we just did month after month after month of wanting them to know exactly, you know, how to do these things, you know, when we're grown, or when they're grown. And so we did that. ‍ ‍ But I mean, my husband, anytime he was working on the lawnmower, anytime he was doing anything in the yard, he gathered the boys around like, "Hey, boys, come on," and he was trying to show them or fixing the toilet or deal, you know, whatever it might have been. And I would do the same thing, whether it was in the garden, or whether it was in the kitchen, or whether it was outside with yard work, whatever, just to gather them around and involve them because they don't know. I mean, it's not their fault, but they won't know unless we show them. ‍ ‍ And one of the things I love is that the earlier you start showing them and training them up in these chores, and in this yard work, and in managing a home, the longer you have at home to train them up to do it well. But a lot of people think, oh, they're too young, or I'll just wait until they're older. Well, truth is, by the time they're 16, you really have very limited time with them. Very limited. And you're like, "Oh, when am I going to do that?" You know, they're at their sports, they're at school things, they're driving, they're with friends. And so, it's like, the earlier you can start the better. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (16:11 - 16:22) ‍ ‍ So good, even I'm thinking we could even involve our kids in what else have we not thought of that you want to learn how to do because it really is a gift to be trained and to take that time. ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (16:23 - 16:32) ‍ ‍ I mean, and that kind of goes back to what we've talked about last time, you know, just being lifelong learners and curious, like, I don't know how to do this. But let's figure it out together. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (16:33 - 16:44) ‍ ‍ Well, and I'm going to also link to a previous episode, I did interview Kay on that book. But do you remember the other one that you also read related to it? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (16:44 - 20:24) ‍ ‍ Oh, yes, there was a season where there's actually two of them. But there is a season where my focus and my priority was riding entitlement from my children. I meet with moms all the time. And they're like, "My children are so spoiled." And I'm like, "Well, just I'm curious who spoils them." You know, and it really does start with us. It stems with us, even if it's the ones where moms will say, "Well, I mean, I don't give them that brand new thing, but their grandmother does." Well, technically, you're the gatekeeper of what comes in and out of your home, you can allow it or not allow it, you can say to them, "You know what, they don't need the newest iPad, they don't need the newest Lululemon or whatever. I want to, I want you to offer an experience with them, you know, something different, something like that, you can control that." But there was a season where that's all I saw. And I saw it in my children's hearts as well. And so, I read the book How to Raise Grateful Children in an Entitled World. And then I also read the book 7 by Jen Hatmaker long time ago, a lot of our philosophies have changed. But back in the day, long time ago, it was an entitlement, it said an experiment against a mutiny against excess. And so, it was another challenge we did, like we did the 12-month challenge from Kay's book, we did a seven-month challenge from her book, and we took seven areas where we have so much excess, and we stripped it down one month at a time. And I'm telling you, it was hard, not only because our children didn't want to do it, but it was hard for me, particularly the month of technology. I mean, you're talking no TV, no cell phone, no, I mean, other than phone calls, you know, no scrolling, none of that, no podcast, no, you couldn't use it just for a month just to have stillness, quiet. I mean, it was crazy hard. But then we noticed that the puzzles started coming out and coloring started coming out and creativity started coming out, you know, it requires 15 minutes of boredom, boredom for creativity to set in. And I would say the creativity did set in, and it was unbelievable. ‍ ‍ One month, we only allowed we got to choose, but we picked seven foods. That's all you could eat for one month. When you went out, that's all you could choose from. It was so hard. It was unbelievable. But what caught me so strongly was in her book, she starts out by saying she had three young children at home, and she was adopting two children from Ethiopia. And she had already been over to visit them twice. And they were literally starving to death. And you know, her heart just wanted them home. But because of all the logistics, she couldn't get them here yet. And she said one day she made fish sticks for her kids. And then she went up to go switch laundry. She came back down a few minutes later, and she saw all the fish in the trash can. And she was like, "What in the world?" So, she asked them, she said, "Did y'all not eat?" They're like, "We did." And she said, "Well, I just saw the fish sticks in the trash can." And they're like, "We didn't have ketchup." She's like, "You just threw away five pounds of fish, you know, whatever it was, because you didn't have ketchup. Yet we have two other children across the world that would give anything to have those fish sticks." And I was like, "I see that with my children. It's like, I don't want that. Or I don't care for that. Or that clothing, I'd rather something else." And so, for one month, they only could wear seven articles of clothing total. That's it. And it's crazy, because you think everyone's looking at you like, "Why are you wearing the same thing every single day?" No one even cares what you're doing. But it just changed your whole mindset and perspective. So, entitlement was a big one for us. And those two books were super helpful with that. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (20:25 - 20:28) ‍ ‍ Well, and even it sounds like a version of fasting. ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (20:29 - 20:53) ‍ ‍ Oh, absolutely. I mean, we've told our kids all you know, since they were young, it doesn't matter what it is. Whatever you can't fast from owns you. It does, whatever that is. And so, some months the food was harder for others for some month, the clothing was harder, the girls, the clothing was harder. You know, the boys could care less for some month, it was a technology, but it's like whatever it is, it's got a stronghold in your heart. That's what owns you. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (20:54 - 23:23) ‍ ‍ And now a brief message from our sponsor. ‍ ‍ Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. From pre-marital to parenting to the emptiness phase, there is an opportunity for you. WinShape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even when it seems things are going smoothly, so that they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their journey. ‍ ‍ These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of WinShape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and more. ‍ ‍ I've stayed on site at WinShape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org/savvy, S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship. ‍ ‍ Another big topic is discipline, and that's something that parents are consistently interested in discussing, probably so that we can all balance rules and relationship. For any of the other parents who are also exhausted and maybe don't know what consequences to utilize as they seek to influence their children, what are some natural consequences and strategic discipline that you've offered before or that you can think of, especially with teens in the home? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (23:25 - 27:02) ‍ ‍ Yeah. Discipline basically means to disciple, and so we're training our kids up. We can't expect them just to know it on their own and intuitively think, that's not a wise choice, so I shouldn't make it. We're here because they need us. God entrusted them to us. But I love that you said consequences, because that's really the way I choose to look at discipline, because childhood is meant to be training ground for independence. ‍ ‍ Natural consequences, in my opinion, are the best way to do that, because I think consequences should connect directly to their choices, to my choices, because as we tell them, every single choice you make, every single one has a consequence, good or bad. You're going to have a consequence. You reap what you do, so therefore it is so important to acknowledge and recognize what you choose. Not my response to it, but to what you choose. ‍ ‍ You oversleep an alarm, which is, you know, middle schoolers and high schoolers are known to do. You oversleep the alarm, you experience the discomfort of being late, whether that's missing the whole day because you as the mom are busy doing other things, or you're at work, or maybe you just missed that test the first period and you can then drive yourself to school, but you have to suffer that consequence. I'm not going to rescue you from that, or you know, you forget to bring in a project that you have worked on for days and days and days and days, and you forget to bring it in. Your grade will reflect that. That is a natural consequence. ‍ ‍ I had a son, I won't name him, but I had a son that chose to make the decision to cheat on a chemistry test, and the teacher called me and said, in high school, AP, and said, "You know, he's a great student, he made a poor choice, he didn't study, he's busy with football," and she said, "So I'm going to let him retake it," and I said, "No, he chose to make that decision. Please fail him like you would do any other student. I do not want him to ever, ever, ever consider doing this again," and she goes, "Well, it might be on his transcript." I said, "Okay, so be it, but I'm more interested in his long-term character and who he's becoming than I am about his AP chemistry score. I'm more interested in that," so the natural consequences, or to give him a zero on that. ‍ ‍ You know, you have the stud athlete as a son, and they forget their cleats or their jerseys at home. Guess what? They sit out from practice. They sit out from the game that afternoon. You know, it's not going to be the end of the world. Although we think it is, they think it is, it's not. So, I try to think of discipline, you know, not as punishing, but more as preparing them for adulthood, and you know, like we talked about the other day, I encourage moms not to bail, but to let them fail. I mean, it literally could seem like the end of the world to your child, but in the grand scheme of things, it has no bearing on their life later on, but many moms treat every little thing as if, you know, but I just try to tell moms when I meet with them, your child's employer will not care what they made on a middle school project. They won't. If they forgot it and got a C, your employer, their employer will not care that they made a C on that, or maybe even an F. They will not even care what your son or your daughter's high school GPA is. They will not care if you missed that baseball game, you missed that tournament, but they will care if you are hardworking, if you're responsible, if you take ownership for your actions, and I think natural consequences are the best way to teach all of those things. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (27:03 - 27:13) ‍ ‍ Well, and I would assume if we actually follow through, it's so painful in the moment, but it probably doesn't take many times to learn that lesson. ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (27:14 - 29:29) ‍ ‍ No, not at all, and particularly if you have multiple children. I remember I was giving a talk on entitlement and how we rescue our children so easily, and I was setting up, and so I was getting things out of my car, taking things back and forth into this, you know, building where I was setting up, and as I get into the back seat, I see this project that my daughter literally had been working on for two weeks, and when she got out of the car that day, she left it, and I just thought, "Oh, here I am talking about this. I can either do it, nobody will know, take it up there, but then I was like, no, what does that teach her? Mom's going to bail me out every single time," and it was like, ah, it crushed me, crushed me, but I was more interested in what's going to happen for her long term, and another thing, if you have, if you have siblings, multiple children, they can learn from each other, not just from their own personal suffering. ‍ ‍ That same daughter, I'll never forget it. She came home from school. She was in the third grade, and my kids know, like, your schoolwork is on you. It is not on me. I have already been to kindergarten. I have already been to third grade. I've already been to high school. It is on you, and I email the teachers at the beginning of the year. I just want you to know that my third-grade daughter will be doing her entire projects, schoolwork, tests, grade, everything will be her, so please, please grade her on a third grade level, because what's happening is parents are doing their projects, parents are doing their papers, all of the things, and so it's like, wow, hers looks terrible. It is on par for a third grader, though, you know, so I email the teachers at the beginning, and I let them know that they are responsible. They can choose to teach them in any way that they want, discipline them in any way they want, and my daughter came home from school one day, and she had this big thing due the next day, and she was like, "Mom, oh my goodness, I left it in my desk. Would you please email her and see if I can come in early in the morning and get it and work on it," and I said, "Sure," and all my kids were like, "You will," and so I emailed, and I said, "Dear Mrs. Prilliman, she left her, you know, her assignment in her desk. Please feel free to punish her and discipline her in any way that you see fit," and she's like, "Mom," you know, she was so upset, but the other kids are like, "Mental note, I will never do that," you know, so they can learn, you know, from each other as well, so. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (29:30 - 29:50) ‍ ‍ That is a benefit of having siblings. I love hearing those stories. That helps it sink in, but Elizabeth, also, what can we be doing while our children are still in the home in hopes of them experiencing wise financial stewardship and freedom financially when they leave home? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (29:51 - 32:34) ‍ ‍ Yeah, I'm going to be very honest. David and I were not the best at this. It's not our greatest strength, that is for sure. It is not our natural genius, and with a family of 10, money was always tight. It really was, but we didn't want our kids to feel the weight of that. We didn't want them to feel that burden, but having said that, we did teach them delayed gratification. We did teach them saving before spending, distinguishing wants from needs. That's a big difference, working for what they desire or what they wanted, and they had to participate in paying for part or all of what they wanted, and that included travel sports. I mean, you know, there were times where we had five or six in travel sports. I mean, it's thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, and so they either had to contribute financially if they could, depending on their age, or I remember one year, my son was young, and he wanted to do it, and it was going to be $2,800, and he was very gifted in baseball, and we wanted him to have this experience, but we knew that it was going to impact the entire family because all of our kids were still young. ‍ ‍ It wasn't like we could leave them at home. Everybody would be going every single weekend to all these different places, and so we said, "Okay, we're going to sit down as a family, and we're going to talk about this," and so they agreed. They wanted him to do it. They wanted to go to all these tournaments as a family, but so we decided that we would not eat out until that was paid off, the equivalent of that was paid off, and anytime anyone wanted to like stop at McDonald's or pick up something, we're like, "Remember, we're paying for Jack's baseball," and it was a family effort, and so, you know, I mean, it could be their homecoming dress if they want something extravagant or things that were above and beyond, you know, over a roof over their head or food on the table or clothes, you know, their basic needs, but just tried to model financially real life, and we all know that just because we want something doesn't mean we get it. It doesn't work that way, and when we give our kids everything they want, I would argue that we are setting them up and sometimes their potential future spouses up for failure because I don't know if you know this, but this generation is the first generation not to have as to make as much or have as much as their previous two generations before them. ‍ ‍ Typically, we make more than our parents and our grandparents, but this is the first one not to, and that's why grown adults are still living at home, so it's like, wow, if we can model this for our kids, you know, that, hey, just because you want that extra thing doesn't mean you get it. You got to work some extra jobs. You got to pick up some extra shifts, you know, maybe ask for some money chores at home, you know, that we would offer them, but we just tried to model it for real life, but like I said, it wasn't our greatest strength. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (32:35 - 32:41) ‍ ‍ Oh, I bet even more of a strength than you realize just hearing that example. I did not know that about the generation. That's fascinating. ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (32:43 - 34:15) ‍ ‍ Yeah, I mean, one of my all-time favorite, there's a TED Talk. It's old. It's like a really short one, and I'm blanking on the lady's name, but she was in college, and her dad was an attorney, and he was very affluent. They had a lot of money, and back in the day, I think this was like in the 90s, 2000s maybe, there was this new pair of jeans that were out, and they were $120, and every other pair of jeans were like 50 bucks or something, you know, 40 bucks, and so she called her dad, who could easily afford it, and said, "Dad, oh my gosh, I need a pair of these jeans. Everybody," she was in college at University of Florida. "Everybody has these jeans. I want a pair," and he goes, "Okay, well, what are you going to do to go get the money?" She's like, "Dad, come on. I know you can give it to me." He said, "No, that's not the way life works," so she happened to be in the student center, and she saw one of those little advertisements, need a house cleaner, and she's like, "My parents made me do chores. I know how to clean a house," so she pulled the little number. She went to the lady's house. She cleaned her house, got the 120 bucks, and the lady said, "Well, when are you coming back," and she said, "Oh, no, no, I just needed one pair of jeans. Like, you know, I'm not coming back," and she said, "No, you did an amazing job." Well, this girl went on to start an organization while she was in college, a business. Now, it's like on a Fortune 500 something. I don't even know, but it's called Student Maid, M-A-I-D, and she had 500 employees by the time she was a senior, and she was cleaning apartments, houses, but her dad had given her the 120 bucks because he could to get the pair of jeans, so it's like, get out there and figure it out, and so I just love that story. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (34:16 - 34:34) ‍ ‍ Wow, I love that as well, and totally different topic, but when it comes to caring for our health and our bodies, if we truly believe our bodies are a temple for God, what are ways that we can model and encourage our children to live wisely in that way? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (34:35 - 37:07) ‍ ‍ Yeah, I'm glad you said model because really that's what it comes down to. I mean, if they see us beating ourselves up, not prioritizing sleep, not moving our bodies, not eating well, you know, that's what they're going to do. I mean, it's just history has proven itself. You can look at cultures. Those that move their bodies, sleep, rest on the Sabbath, I mean, they're a healthier culture, and so all of those things, you know, eating with balance, not obsession, resting on Sundays, I mean, even in the church world, that's almost unheard of to take the Sabbath off, and I would really say, particularly if you have daughters, not that it doesn't matter for sons as well, but it really impacts daughter is speaking respectfully about the body that God has given you. ‍ ‍ I sadly see so many women talk trash about their own looks or their own appearance, their body, if I could just fix this, I wish I didn't have this, and then they expect their daughters not to do the same, you know, and so when we say, "Oh, honey, you're beautiful," they're like, "Well, you don't think you are," you know, and they see right through it. I mean, I want my daughters to be strong, not skinny, right? I want them to be healthy, not appearance driven. I want them to know that mom got up and went to the gym every morning. Mom made sure she got outside and got sunshine and got on a walk, you know, culture already put so much pressure on these young girls and their size. Oh, my goodness, it like just breaks my heart, and so the last thing they need is for us to start, you know, for striving for unattainable goals, right, that put an expectation on them and their appearance. I mean, that's the last thing that they need, and so David and I have always tried to, well, I would say we tried very, very, very, very hard to compliment their character and their effort, but never their appearance. ‍ ‍ Most of the times when you hear parents applauding and just talking about how good looking someone is, how beautiful they are, it's nothing that they did to earn. I mean, you'll hear something. My son is so tall and big and strong, and I'm like, he did nothing. God gave him that, you know, and if you happen to have a very small son like I do, and if that's what you're praising over here, what does that speak to this child? Or, you know, oh my goodness, you're so beautiful, and so we try to focus on their heart, the internal, their, you know, the stewardship of what God has given them, but never appearance. It's more taking care of the body, and we believe the important part of that is the heart and the soul. So, we just want them to have the goal of honoring the life that God entrusted to them, the body that God entrusted to them. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (37:08 - 37:21) ‍ ‍ Such wise principles, and then when we think about spiritual life as well, what wisdom can you share for parents who want to help their children cultivate a flourishing spiritual life? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (37:22 - 39:19) ‍ ‍ Well, one prayer for our children is that they would each have a faith of their own, you know, not one that's handed down, not a formula, you know, but a relationship with Jesus, and so with that in mind, we tried to focus on the heart of who Jesus is and not the rules of God. You know, we never wanted them to view God as this like scary judge, you know, with his gavel, like handing down these judgments, but a God who genuinely loves them regardless of what they do, and so we wanted that to be their own unique personal relationship, not one that looks like ours, acts like ours, you know, it's like this cookie cutter, so we encourage them just to pray naturally, not formula, you know, like formally, but we talked about God in a real casual way, like in our coming and our going, not this big Sunday conversation, you know, you have at the dinner table after church, but we wanted them to see our own dependence on God, which was every single day, and we wanted to create space for them to have their own unique personal faith, and one thing I've learned is that faith cannot be manufactured, but you can cultivate the soil where it grows, and I'll just say this really quick, in an effort to have them have a faith of their own, it was so neat, they all went to the same church, but their faith looks so differently, different from their siblings, and there was a time we had all four of them at one college in Athens, and so they're all there, and we were visiting, and I said, "Hey, well, you know, we'll go to church tomorrow morning, you know, with y'all," and they all kind of looked at me like I had three heads, and I thought, "Well, don't y'all go to church, please tell me I'll go to church," you know, that's not what they meant, they all four went to completely different churches, wow, I was mind blown, I was like, "This is the most ecumenical family I've ever met," like I was like, I had no idea that that is how different the relationships with the Lord are, as for what they were seeking in a church, and I was just so grateful for that. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (39:20 - 40:17) ‍ ‍ When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you? Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world, so we need your help. Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share, we appreciate you. ‍ ‍ One other practical thing too, do you have just any tech tips, especially because you've raised so many teens already? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (40:17 - 42:06) ‍ ‍ Oh, tech tips. You know, we had this big charging station in our kitchen, and so the kids had to put their phones there at night, and it would charge like all of them, and so we could see if the phone was not up at night, and there were some serious consequences if they broke those rules. I remember one time my daughter, after we went to bed, she snuck back downstairs and got her phone and brought it upstairs, and anyway, I kept getting these notifications come through on my iPad, and I was like, "What in the world?" Well, I didn't even realize the clouds, or it's over my head, but whatever reason, hers was beeping on mine, and so we went in there, and she had her phone under her pillow. She was texting somebody, and so when she got home from school that next day, her door was off of the hinges, and she was, you know, as a middle school girl, her privacy was so important. I was like, "You can change in the bathroom, you know, but you have shown us that you cannot earn privacy right now. You don't make the choices with it," but it is really hard. ‍ ‍ I think a lot of people, their natural inclination is just to remove it all from them, but I hesitate to encourage anyone to do that, because the truth of the matter is the world we live in is full of technology, and if you just completely say you can't have it, and the next thing you know they're 18, they go off to college or whatever the age is, and you give it to them, they haven't been in the home where you've been training them up how to manage your time with it, put, you know, limits on the time, how much you can spend on it, that kind of thing, and so it's like you're never going to outsmart your children in technology. They're already smarter than you are, but it's like how can you help them with the time management, you know, letting, talking with them about like what they're putting before their eyes on the technology, that kind of thing. The same goes for TV. You know, we would never watch something in front of our children that we would want them to think is normal ever, you know, and so it's like it's not, we don't want to normalize that. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (42:07 - 42:33) ‍ ‍ That's good, and really I'm hearing this theme, a key ingredient for everything we've discussed so far is actually a fruit of the spirit, self-control. So, knowing that discipline and self-control are actually going to lead to freedom, how can we help our children grow up to live an appropriately disciplined life? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (42:34 - 45:53) ‍ ‍ Yeah, my dad used to say this thing all the time. He would say, "The slave to the compass has the freedom of the seas. The rest must sail close to the shore," and it's so true. I mean, we have, if you want to do that, you have to come under the authority of the boat. In other words, you can't just do whatever you want on a boat and be able to sail the whole ocean. It doesn't work that way. You have to follow the captain's orders, and you have to follow the mechanisms that make the ship move, right? And so, it's like, but if you do that, if you master that, if you're a slave to the compass, to the sails, so the way the boat works, you can have the freedom of the seas. And the same is true of discipline and of self-control, right? We must exhibit that in order to have freedom. ‍ ‍ And so, when our children exhibited obedience and discipline and self-control, we then gave them more freedom, you know, more responsibilities. And then when they didn't follow instructions, like my daughter with the cell phone, you know, they didn't do what was expected of them. We pulled in the reins a little bit. Dave Ramsey, years and years ago, before I, my children were older, he shared the analogy of the rope, and I loved it because he said, you know, the more your children exhibit responsibility, making the right choices, they're being obedient, you let out that rope. And that one end, it's almost like you've got a rope around their waist. You're letting it out, letting them experience more independence. But then the second that they don't do that, you kind of rein it back in. If they make a poor choice, they stay out past their curfew, whatever it might be, you pull it back in. And so, it's a very important analogy for his family. ‍ ‍ So important though, when his oldest daughter went off to college, Rachel, you know, she goes off to college, he wraps up this beautiful gift, and it was a rope. And it was the rope with the round. And he said, and it had, he tied things on it, like she went to Tennessee, I think. So, it had like an orange thing on it. And then it had the colors of her high school and all these things that represented her life. And he said, "Hey, for 18 years, I've been holding on to this end of the rope. But now it's time I let it go. And I'm giving it to you; you're going to manage that rope all on your own." And so, it meant the world to her because they knew how important and so she put it on her doorknob in her dorm room. And every time she left and entered, she saw that, you know, that rope realizing that she was responsible for how far she let that thing out and how far she pulled that in. And so, discipline, self-discipline is huge. ‍ ‍ You know, at the end of the day, we just wanted to show our children that discipline and self-control, it isn't a restriction, right? It's the pathway to freedom. And I've got to tell you; my kids are more disciplined than I am. I mean, my two oldest sons are 26 and 25. And they set timers on their phone. And so, they literally can only and each other has the passcode so they can't even override it. They can only be on their phone for three hours a day at all for anything. And they do it during the hours where they're at work, so that they know they can't be on it anyway. I mean, it's already self-limiting. And it's like they know that this is a temptation, they don't want to waste that time. And so, and when you see a child when you train up a child and discipline, it's amazing how it spills over into other areas. You know, they both are very disciplined with how many books they read, how far they run every day. Like, I mean, they're very disciplined individuals, because I think it's contagious. You know, that just self-discipline just kind of permeates all the other areas of your life as well. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (45:54 - 46:06) ‍ ‍ And that is so encouraging, because I guess I just envision like, we're planting seeds, and we've gotten to hear a few of the seeds that you planted. And now it grows up even bigger than you could have probably ever asked or imagined. ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (46:06 - 46:22) ‍ ‍ Oh, yeah. I mean, sometimes their discipline frustrates me, because like, I'll need to talk to them, and they're on like a 23-mile run, and they can't talk or, you know, like, I'll want to call them. And they're like, "Mom, I can't use my phone right now." And I'm like, "Come on," you know, but they are, they are disciplined. I just drives me crazy sometimes. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (46:23 - 46:36) ‍ ‍ Oh, I love that so much. So, Elizabeth, as parents, what else can we do now to help our kids eventually reach maturity and independence as adults? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (46:37 - 51:07) ‍ ‍ Yeah, I mean, again, I can't say it enough. Childhood is meant to be the training ground for independence. So, every single day, they are training you or you are training them. And it's like, are you training them up for independence, maturity? Are you training them up to be dependent upon you? Are you teaching them that your proximity is what keeps them safe? And it's like, okay, so we're going to make these choices when they're young, might be harder on us, because I have mom say to me all the time, you know, I mean, it's just easier when I do it. And I'm like, it is, or they're like, they'll never do a job as good as I do. They won't. But you know what, it's like, it doesn't matter. It's not about what's easy on us. It's what's best for them for the long run. ‍ ‍ So, you know, goes back to that book we talked about, but you can really just think of Kay's book, you can really think about anything that you want to know that you want them to know how to do well and reach maturity and master whatever that is. And, you know, most people, not intentionally, but subconsciously think, oh my goodness, by magic at the stroke of their 18th birthday at midnight, you know, they're just going to know how to do these things. And they don't, they don't know how to do these things. ‍ ‍ I mean, my oldest son went off to college and two weeks after he went off, I came back home and I was at Target. And I ran into this lady and who'd also dropped off her daughter. And she said to me, "How are you doing?" And I said, "I'm fine. How are you?" She goes, "I mean, are you, are you managing?" And I'm like, "Managing what?" And she's like, "Without your son." And I said, "Yes," she would help my son. She goes, "Well, I have to ask you how many times have you been up there?" And I said, "Since two weeks ago when we dropped them off?" And she said, "Yeah." And I said, "I haven't should I ask how many times you've been up there?" She was well, one time she called me because I forgot to teach her how to use her diabetic medicine. So, I had to drive and teach her how to do that. And I thought, okay, in my mind, I'm thinking that was kind of a really big deal to not know how to do. And then she said, "And then another time she called me, and she chewed me out because I didn't pack laundry detergent for her." And I thought, "Oh, you packed her stuff. She didn't do that." And she said, "Well, I mean, you know, I just was doing it for her." And she goes, "I had to tell her I did pack laundry detergent." And she said, "No, the only thing I've seen you pack are those little round things that I've seen you put in the dishwasher." Oh, no, this is what she tells me. And I was like that she's seeing you put in the dishwasher. She goes, "I had to tell her that laundry pods are made too. So, I had to go up and teach her how to do laundry." And then the third time I just missed her. So, I went up there, but I thought, wow, like we are training them to fly from us. ‍ ‍ You know, that is the ultimate goal is that they are independent, that they can leave us. But the hardest thing about it is accepting that success. If you do it well, because that's the last thing you want to do is have your child not need you anymore. Moms thrive on being needed, particularly by our children. But honestly, that is what God gave them to us for so that they can go out and launch onto their own. So, we just started training them up as soon as we possibly could on little things like solving problems or managing their own schedules. That's a big one. You shouldn't be asking them what homework do you have? What tests do you have? What paper do you have? How can I help you? Don't do that tonight because you've got to do your homework. Let them manage their own schedules. Let them set their own alarms. If they oversleep it, there is a natural consequence. So, they won't keep doing that anymore. ‍ ‍ And I mean, I had a daughter that slept through every alarm we ever set. It didn't matter how loud it was. So, I was not going to give into that. So, we literally bought an alarm that was a round ball. And on this round ball, it would be on the floor. And when her alarm would go off, it would roll away from her bed. And so, she couldn't not turn it off. She'd have to get out of bed to turn it off. And so, I mean, there's ways you can do it if you really want to. But, you know, training them up how to advocate for themselves. Most children don't know how to advocate for themselves, which is why the most recent stat right now on Fox News, I saw it two months ago, 29% of college graduates are taking their parents with them to their job interviews. 29% are taking their parents with them. They're 23 years old. Think about that. Let that set in. You know, teaching them how to shop for, prepare, cook meals. You have conflict, healthy conflict. Recover from mistakes. You know, try again. I mean, our job, I've already said it, but our job is not to make their lives easy. And it's not to do what's easy for us. It's to make them capable. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (51:10 - 51:38) ‍ ‍ Wow. You have been so inspirational to learn from. And one more thing on that. When, if we're very encouraged, we're going to be more consistent and do this thoughtfully, intentionally. When we meet resistance from our kids, what encouragement do you have for us, regardless of their age, whether they're whining about it when they're younger, throwing a temper tantrum or giving attitude? What would you encourage us with there? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (51:38 - 54:03) ‍ ‍ Well, it's not very encouraging, but you will meet resistance. You will. I mean, why would they ever, I mean, my kids had to make their own lunches starting in kindergarten. And my daughter Walker would come home every day and I'm the only one that has to make their own lunch, you know? And I'm like, "You know what? You get to put in your lunch, whatever you want. Every other child has to eat what their mom makes them eat." You know, I'm like trying to show her these things, but the truth is you are going to be met with resistance. But if it ever crosses that line into disrespect, that first and foremost needs to be handled first, without a doubt. There's never a reason for disrespect. And if you allow that disrespect in your sons, they will grow up to be men that disrespect their wives. If you allow that in your children, they will grow up to be employees that disrespect their employees. And on, you know, you reap what you sow. So, it's like, I am not going to allow that. ‍ ‍ Having said that we make our chores on the whiteboard so that there is no nagging, there is no reminding, there is none of that. And so, we put it on there. They know it has to be done. And if it's not done, they don't sit down for dinner. And then once our kids hit middle school and they had practices after school and high school practices and things like that, they couldn't do it before dinner because they didn't get home until dinner or sometimes afterwards. So, it had to be done before they went to bed. And if they didn't, I didn't nag, I didn't get upset with them. But the next day when they walked up and saw the whiteboard, their second chore was incredibly time consuming and incredibly hard because they did not do the chore from the day before. Because again, we're modeling real life. Just because you had a full day doesn't mean you get to walk in the door, kick off your heels at night and just assert all your responsibilities. Not at all. You have to still do it. And so, it's like you've chosen to play these sports. You've chosen to do these travel things and you're still a part of this family. So, it's like encourage them in a way to do these things that doesn't impact you. Like you don't want to get into this, you know, match back and forth trying to explain to them why it's important. It's just a rule. It is what it is. That's why I like it on the whiteboard. There's no, there's no having to nag, having to check, but just don't allow the disrespect is the big thing when they kind of meet you with resistance. But again, what child's going to be like, "Sure, mom, I want to take on this." They're not going to, you know, I, like I said, my oldest, he did not enjoy doing all the things that he had to do. And there came a day he went to college and he was so grateful, so grateful that he knew how to do those things. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (54:04 - 54:07) ‍ ‍ So, we're going for that long term. Thank you. ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (54:07 - 54:09) ‍ ‍ Always, always long game parenting. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (54:10 - 54:19) ‍ ‍ Well, Elizabeth, you have given us so much in these weeks together, but where would you like to direct us to continue learning from you after this chat? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (54:19 - 54:49) ‍ ‍ Well, if women live in Atlanta, we do have the exchange, which is local and coming, and I would love for them to come to that. We also have our podcasts on purpose with, which encourages women to live on purpose and with intention. You know, I just absolutely love connecting with women that want to live wholeheartedly this one beautiful life we've been given. So, I'd love for them to reach out to me on Instagram. I've got my personal handle as Octomama. I also have the exchange US and long game parenting. ‍ ‍ Laura Dugger: (54:50 - 55:09) ‍ ‍ Wonderful. We will provide all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. And I just have one more question for you. We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, Elizabeth, what is your savvy sauce? ‍ ‍ Elizabeth Pehrson: (55:09 - 56:01) ‍ ‍ My savvy sauce today, based on what we've spoken about, I would say to the women listening to the very best of your ability, it's going to be difficult. It is not going to be easy, but to the very best of your ability, stop over functioning for your children. And over functioning is simply doing for your children what they can and should be doing for themselves. And my favorite mantra that I tell moms all the time is just because you can do provide or give doesn't mean you should just because you can do provide or give, it doesn't mean you should. So, if you want to have grateful children, do less, not more. You want to raise children that have a respect for other people, do less, not more. If you want to raise de

In this reflection, we dive into Jesus' radical command in Matthew 5:37: "All you need to say is simply ‘Yes' or ‘No.'"Beginning with a personal story about keeping three grandchildren every Thursday night and the life lesson of following through on our word, we explore why Jesus' teaching on oath-taking completely dismantled first-century legal loopholes.Tracing the Old Testament pattern through Hosea and Jeremiah, we examine how easily we fall into "complacent religiosity"—singing songs of surrender on Sunday while quietly leaving backdoors open for comfort, status, and control during the week. But the Gospel message brings hope beyond our cycle of backsliding: where our promises fail, Jesus walked in perfect, unwavering obedience to the cross.Join us as we pull up a chair, spend time in God's Word, and learn what it means to rest in Christ's persistent mercy when our own word falters.Key TakeawaysUndivided Discipleship: Why a true "Yes" to Christ requires a decisive "No" to modern idols of security, approval, and comfort.1st-Century Context: How Jesus confronted a culture of binding vs. non-binding oath loopholes, calling His followers to radical, transparent integrity.Gospel Hope: Why redemption depends entirely on God's faithful covenant love, not our ability to white-knuckle our way into perfection.Scriptures ReferencedMatthew 5:37 (NIV) — Anchor ScriptureJeremiah 2:2, 13 (NIV)Hosea 5:3–4 (The Message)Hosea 11:8–9 (NIV)Jeremiah 31:31, 33 (NIV)Romans 5:8, 20 (NIV)2 Timothy 2:13 (NIV)Galatians 5:1 (NIV)Reflection Questions for Your WeekWhere has a past commitment to God or loved ones drifted into a half-hearted "maybe"?What idols of comfort, security, or approval are competing for your "yes"?Where do you spot subtle patterns of backsliding or drift in your own walk?How does knowing your redemption rests on God's faithfulness—not your perfection—reshape your heart when you stumble?Share the WordIf this episode encouraged you, please consider sharing it with a friend and leaving a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. New episodes publish weekly!

Long-Game Parenting with Elizabeth Pehrson (Episode 295)   Exodus 23:20 NLT “See, I am sending an angel before you to protect you on your journey and lead you safely to the place I have prepared for you.”   *Transcription Below*   Elizabeth Pehrson is a speaker, podcaster and founder of The Exchange. She's a yellow sanguine, who is full of energy and lives life wide-open! She loves Jesus and meaningful connections. Elizabeth is married to David and mother of EIGHT children, who range from high school to graduated from college.   Follow her online:  Instagram: @long_game_parenting or @octomama or @theexchangeus Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/elizabeth.m.pehrson   Thank you to our sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka   Questions and Topics We Cover: What is our role, as parents, in making an effort to help our children have a positive relationship with their siblings? What are ways we can positively shape our children to have strong and healthy relationships with friends?  How can we help our children uncover, articulate, and pursue their purpose in life?    Other Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned: 74 Effective Parenting for Toddlers Through College with Wife, Mother to 8, and The Exchange Founder, Elizabeth Pehrson Part 1  75 Responding to God's Stirring with Elizabeth Pehrson, Founder of The Exchange, Part Two God-honoring Relationship Between a Mother-in-Law and Daughter-in-Law with Author of The Mother-in-Law Dance, Annie Chapman   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:10)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:54) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.   Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at lemangm.com. My returning guest for today is the very energetic, married mother of eight, and founder of The Exchange, Elizabeth Pearson.   I highly recommend that, first of all, you find the link in the show notes to start with our first two episodes together that we did a while back. They focus primarily on raising younger children, but today we're going to focus on parenting teens and beyond in hopes of launching faithful and healthy adults someday. So, with that goal in mind, we're going to begin by discussing relationship-building strategies to foster a life of rightly ordered affections, where we're all loving God and loving others as ourselves.   Then we're going to move into some more actionable ways to ensure our family delights in the abundant life in Christ. Here's our chat.   Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Elizabeth.   Elizabeth Pehrson: (1:55 - 1:57) Well, thank you so much for having me. What a joy.   Laura Dugger: (1:58 - 2:23) Well, I'm just going to start with something that's a little tricky because we obviously cannot control the outcome, but we can be faithful to our calling as parents. So, Elizabeth, do you have any practical tips for helping our children rightly order their affections so that they'll hopefully grow up to love God?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (2:23 - 4:52) Yes. I appreciate you asking with the disclaimers because I do think that that's an important thing because, first of all, I just want to say that I hope that every single woman listening can understand, believe, and trust that God loves our children way more than we do. And as much as we want to control the outcome or guarantee the outcome with our children, we can't.   All we can do is just be faithful to the children that God's entrusted to us. And when it comes to ordering our children's affections, I would basically just say it can't be forced. It can't be image-driven.   And I say that because, unfortunately, I see that a lot in Christian homes today, a lot. And I think one of the most helpful shifts for me in realizing that I cannot control anything when it comes to my children is that I can shape the environment where their loves are formed. That's one thing that is in my control.   That is something that I can do. And a few practical ways that you can do this, and first I'm going to say this a lot, the most important things that we can offer our children are caught, they're not taught. And we have to model it more than we preach it because our children are incredible observers.   And they notice what we prioritize. They notice what interrupts us. They notice what doesn't interrupt us.   And if God's something we only talk about on Sundays, then they feel that. But if they see us turning to Him when we're anxious, when we're grateful, when we're confused, they start to associate God with real life, not just rules. And second, I would just say, I think it's super important to help our kids understand what's worthy of love, right?   I mean, I think we should talk openly with our kids about sports, friends, achievements, you know, how those can be gifts, but they are terrible gods. And also, that they're very, very, very short-sighted. It's not typically, I would say, not typically the so-called bad things that are stealing our affections.   It's usually the good things that are just not often the best things. And so that I would say, like when I watch my children, oftentimes it would be them loving a good thing too much, you know. Most importantly, I would just say that if our kids or your kids or the listeners' kids grow up knowing the heart of God rather than the rules of God, I think their affections will know where to turn.   Laura Dugger: (4:53 - 5:04) Oh, that's so well said. And do you have any ideas for characteristics that will help foster a healthy parent-child relationship?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (5:05 - 8:07) Oh, goodness. I would say, you know, so many things. I think children thrive when they feel safe, when the home feels predictable, when it feels secure, and especially when we listen more than we lecture.   You know, when we can do that, they will feel understood and they won't feel constantly corrected. You know, I grew up in a home that I'm very grateful for, but in my home, love often felt transactional. If I did this, then that.   But, you know, we all know that love isn't something that is earned. You know, it's freely given. And so, our love and affection should never be tied to performance or behavior.   But again, unfortunately, what I see on a regular daily basis is that moms are more codependent on their children than ever before. And because of that, they see their children's behavior as a reflection of themselves. And so that love can become a little bit transactional.   But I would say, practically speaking, I think there's lots of things that encourage a healthy parent-child relationship. And, you know, we could go through a whole list of these things. But the first thing I would say is not being their friend yet.   Down the road, but not yet. You know, we'll have time for that later. But if we treat them as peers right now while they're in the home, authority isn't a value at all that is taught to be respected.   It isn't. And, you know, another thing would be just basic consistent boundaries because structure is actually what creates freedom, right? Open communication, you know, where hard conversations can be had.   And I'm going to tell you, this is something that we were not the best at, but we found ourselves consistently apologizing for, you know, avoiding that hard conversation and then having come back to it. That was a big one. You know, repair after conflict.   That's huge because it is so important for our kids to see us model, you know, owning our mistakes, apologizing for it, you know, when we mess up because that teaches the kids that our relationships can bend without breaking. And the last thing I thought of when I thought about this question was respect for autonomy. And I say that because healthy relationships are ones where we allow our kids to grow and evolve.   But a lot of times we want to keep them stuck in whatever that age, whatever that stage is. And children need to be allowed age-appropriate independence. They need to be allowed age-appropriate freedom, you know, constantly just letting that rope out little by little by little and, you know, knowing that parents eventually will just get to the place where they can guide mentor without instructing, you know, our, our goal for them is their own autonomy and their own independence.   Laura Dugger: (8:09 - 8:28) That's so good. It makes me even think recently I was reading something about leave and cleave and leaving is breaking all dependencies. And I thought that's kind of the kindness of the Lord that we do that a little by little.   Every year, probably of parenting.   Elizabeth Pehrson: (8:29 - 9:51) Oh, it's, it's the truth. And it's interesting that you say that because one, we have an 18-year-old boy that's graduating. And my husband and I were just talking, we think it's the goodness of the Lord because what we've noticed, not disrespect, but just this pulling away as he's, you know, nearing graduation, really wanting more independence, not necessarily telling us where he's going to be just, you know, he's not going to be able to go to college.   And then we're like, “Oh, I went to so-and-so's house.” And after the fact, and in, in a way when our first son started doing that, I was like, “You know what? He's not, he still lives in this, you know, in this home under this roof.”   But it's like my husband said, “You know, it's almost like God's goodness that allows him to pull away a little bit, a little bit, a little bit. So that when he does leave in August, end of July, It makes it a little bit easier. You know?”   And then that leave and cleave thing, you said, “I have a son that lives in Houston and he's the lead part just fine, independent, separate, but now he's cleaving to someone else as he's met a girl and that part has been hard for me.” It's like, whoa, like that's a whole, that's like next level, you know, where they no longer, you're no longer the one they call for advice. You're no longer the woman in their life, so to speak.   And so, it's been a lot of growing pains, but it's all, again, it's exactly what God designed when we raise our kids.   Laura Dugger:: (9:51 - 10:28) But you're right, it's both and it's beautiful, but it's hard and very difficult to go through. It makes me think one of my top 10 of all-time favorite episodes was with Annie Chapman and she wrote the mother-in-law dance. And so, I'll link to that episode as well in the show notes, but I think it was very helpful for even preparing now what that's going to look like someday.   Yep. But as we come back to focusing on today, Elizabeth, what is our role as parents in making an effort to help our children have a positive relationship with their siblings?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (10:29 - 14:01) Oh, goodness. Having eight children, you know, they have a lot of siblings and ever since our kids were little, David and I just have prayed over and over and over again, one, that they would know, love, and serve God, two, that they would stay close to each other, and then three, that they would seek joy in everything they do. And so, because one of our prayers is that they would stay close to each other, we did everything we could to shape environments that fostered connection with their siblings, with each other.   And that could look like we moved their rooms a lot of times, like who they shared with at different seasons of their life. We mixed them up with different brothers or different sisters, outings or trips where we would take just a couple of them, not all of them, but we mixed that up. You know, we never, ever, ever put up with disrespect or mistreatment of each other.   That one is a huge one, or their belongings for that matter. But that's so important not to allow your children to offer disrespect or display disrespect to their siblings. A lot of people think, oh, it's just their kid, you know, their siblings, they feel most comfortable with him.   That's totally normal, but it really does start at home. Another thing I think of is that we talked as a whole, our family as a team, as a unit. You know, we were a family unit.   It's not like one pitted against the other. We were on the same team. And although if my children were here, I am certain that one or more of them would say that they felt compared to at times, but we really did our best not to compare our children because comparison breeds rivalry faster than anything.   It really, really does. And we also tried to think about each individual child, you know, like, hey, this is your unique gift. This is your strength.   This is an asset, you know, an asset to the team, not just to you individually, but as a family as a whole. And the last thing I would say is everyone laughs because we had family A and then we had family B. And that's the first four kids and the second four kids.   And we taught them to serve each other. You know, the older kids were paired with the younger child, a younger sibling, and they had to help them. Sometimes it wasn't even help serving them, but it was doing a chore together.   We'll get to this later, I think. But chores are huge in our home. And when they turn nine, they have to mow the yard.   And we had we lived on three and a half acres. And so, we had a riding lawnmower. And when my nine-year-old son, my third son turned nine, he wasn't quite heavy enough to keep the mower going, you know, because you have to be heavy enough.   Otherwise, it shuts it off. And when he would lean to put his foot on the gas, it would shut it off. So, my three-year-old boy, his chore was to sit behind him and just hold on, you know, for the hour and a half it took him to mow the yard.   And, you know, we paired them together a lot. But at the end of the day, we can require respect, but we just can't force friendship. I have two daughters that are only 15 months apart.   When they were little, they were attached at the hip. I mean, where one went, the other one went. But now that they're older and they're both in college at the same college, their personalities are very different.   Their interests are very different. And they aren't as close as they once were, but they love each other. They respect each other.   And, you know, we just have to be OK with that, you know.   Laura Dugger: (14:02 - 14:40) That makes sense because there's different seasons to everything. I think you can see that with siblings who pair up with each other. And I'm sure that changes throughout their whole life.   Yeah, I want to go back. There's a few things that I want to follow up on. One of them was codependency with mothers and their children.   And the other one is already escaping me now. So, I'll try and recall that one. But can you share a little bit more of either why you think it is that way more today or what that might look like if we're codependent with our children and maybe unaware of that?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (14:41 - 16:35) All I can say is that I meet with women on a regular basis and 9.9 times out of ten there, they see their children as a reflection of themselves. So, when they make wise choices, they tend to tend to get puffed up. When they don't, they kind of bow back in shame or regret.   Or I can't believe this. But the truth of the matter is they are independent, you know, separate from you. And most moms don't know where they end and where the child begins.   We're entering graduation season. And I cannot tell you the number of moms that are like, “Oh, oh, this is so hard, this graduation thing.” And I'm like, but you're not graduating.   Like, you know, the kids have the responsibility of all the different things they have to do. But you don't. They've already you know, you've already graduated.   Let them enjoy this separate from you. But they can't do it. They're a part of every single aspect of their daughter or their son's life.   And when that happens, you know, every home run is so important. Every grade they make is so important. And I am all about long, long term, you know, long term parenting.   And it is not that it has nothing to do with a long-term person of character that they will become. So, if moms can see where they are separate, it is so beneficial for the child as well as the mom. You know, I met with a mom the other day and she's like, well, I'm not codependent, but my daughter is.   And I said, “Well, tell me more about this.” And she said, “Well, she calls me. She's in college and she calls me 10 times a day.”   And I said, “OK, well, let me ask you, how many times do you answer?” And she's kind of looked at me and she goes, “Well, she might need something.” And I said, “She can call back.”   She can text 911. But when you're so readily available to your child, it just fosters that dependency, you know, of your child on you. And it's so unhealthy.   Laura Dugger: (16:36 - 16:51) And I did hear a mom tell me one time when we, I think, had very little children. She said, “You want to ultimately work that dependency off of you and onto the Lord where they are first going to him, which is a lifelong job.”   Elizabeth Pehrson: (16:51 - 18:23) It is a lifelong job. There's a funeral service. It's going to sound morbid, but I watched it because it was so impactful to me.   I didn't even know this lady, but I watched it four times, this service that was online out of Florida. And the daughters were speaking and they said, “The best thing that they did, the very best thing that she did for them was to teach them their complete dependence on the Lord.” And she said, “She had cancer and she knew she was passing away.”   And she said, “Girls, don't be sad for me. I am going to be with my heavenly father rejoicing, singing his praises.” And she said, “If I have taught you to rely solely on me, then I've done a really bad job.”   I want your sole dependence to be on your heavenly father. But unfortunately, what I see again is just meeting with these women. We teach them that our presence is what keeps them safe or are, you know, being close proximity, especially with the cell phone.   You know, there's a lot of researchers that call it the longest umbilical cord because it keeps us in contact with him 24 seven. It's so sad. I mean, I interviewed some teachers at a middle school because they don't no longer allow cell phones.   You have to put it in the basket. Now there are some schools that are making you just not even bring it in. But I'm not even exaggerating when I tell you.   They would tell me that the children have two cell phones. The parents would give them two; one so they could put it in the basket and two so that the parents could be able to reach them at a moment's notice. Wow.   It's a real thing. I'm not making this up.   Laura Dugger: (18:24 - 18:26) That is crazy.   Elizabeth Pehrson: (18:26 - 18:59) Just to think in not that many years, how different that is from, you know, I ask moms all the time, would you have loved it if your mom had a low jack on you, like tracking your every move? I mean, because what happens is when you do that in middle school, high school, then they go off to college. I meet with moms every single day.   They're like, oh, my goodness, I'm so tired. I didn't go to bed till three o'clock last night. And I'm like, why?   Well, because I have like 360 on my child in college and she didn't get home till three, so I couldn't go to sleep. That's a normal everyday thing.   Laura Dugger: (19:01 - 19:38) Wow. And OK, for those situations, what would you recommend instead of that? And I guess if I could throw this in, I just was at a reunion with some graduate school friends, and we are all therapists or that's what we studied.   And we were just sharing how truly we've seen this play out. What we learned back in grad school was that if there's anxiety about something, avoidance never works. You have to even if it's micro dosing, you have to go through it rather than around it or avoid it.   Elizabeth Pehrson: (19:38 - 20:32) Oh, yes. And I mean, I'm sure you've read the book, The Most Anxious Generation of All Time. I mean, that's where we are.   And it stems, in my opinion, my humble opinion from the parents who are so anxious because they are codependent, because they are over involved in their children's life. And, you know, quite honestly, it's like the moms are so involved in their children's lives that when the last child leaves, you see the highest divorce rate is after the last emancipation of the last child. Once that child leaves, it's like, I have no life.   I have no identity. I have no purpose. And I certainly don't have relationship with my husband because my focus has been with my children.   And so, the moms that are anxious, the moms that are just so overbearing, over controlling are the ones that, in my opinion, are fostering those types of relationships with their children, the anxious ones. They can't do anything without their parents.   Laura Dugger: (20:33 - 22:06) And now a brief message from our sponsor, Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago. If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed.   They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle free as possible.   They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple Welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today.   Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread. So come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.   Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.   And so, do you have any tips if they're recognizing that in themselves today? What's just one turning point that could happen?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (22:07 - 23:29) Well, I would say and I hope that they're willing to take it. Most women that I meet with will recognize that they are. And then they're like, but you don't understand.   Or but I just can't go to sleep or there's a, but you know why I can't. But I would say whatever that is, that has a hold on you, that you're still holding on to your 18, 19, 20, 21, 26-year-old child, whatever it is, they're adults. I mean, legally, they are adults at 18.   But yet whatever that is, that's holding you, keeping you attached to them, whether it's causing you to lose sleep, whether it's causing anxiety. You absolutely have to make that separation in that area. And so, you know, for the one that's got the Life360, 24 seven. Hey, give it to your husband.   You take it off your phone and they will be able to know how to figure out where your child is, should there be a need, you know, but you're hyper fixating on it, take that away. If it is a cell phone and you're calling your child every single day about everything, all that's doing is teaching your child that they can't do it on their own without you. And they have Google, you know, they have the Internet.   I didn't have that when I went away and I didn't have a cell phone, but I figured it out. So, it's like whatever it is that has a hold on you. I would encourage the mom just to make that separation in that one area and then start there.   Laura Dugger: (23:30 - 23:34) Love it. And I did think of the other thing that I wanted to circle back with.   Elizabeth Pehrson: (23:35 - 23:35) What is this?   Laura Dugger: (23:35 - 23:49) So, you had mentioned, yes, you taught your children respect one another in the home, but also respecting their belongings or property. Can you just share a little bit more of how you did that in your philosophy of why that was important?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (23:50 - 25:40) Oh, absolutely. I would tell you that David, my husband, and I firmly believe that respect for siblings, for coaches, for teachers, for peers, for their parents is hands down the foundation of every other principle that you can instill in your children, because if you respect them, you know, I mean, there are certain cultures and generations that respect their elderly. We're not a culture that does that.   And it's like if you respect them, you hold the door for them. You'll get up and give them your seat. You would never, you know, misuse their things, their belongings.   So, with the second that we saw any amount of disrespect, whether it was to us, like, say, if one of my children said something to me that was disrespectful, whether it was a tone, it might not have been the words. It could be a tone. It could be the volume of his voice, whatever it might be.   My husband would step in and say, “Hey, son. That's my wife. I don't allow anyone to speak like that to her.”   And then therefore, there would be like a consequence for it. And so, I mean, it might be that or at the risk of being too TMI or too vulgar. I had one son that had the urge to go to the bathroom, pee wherever he wanted to.   And one time he peed on his sister's blanket, her blankie, because he was mad at her. Let me tell you something. He will never forget it.   I don't remember what the punishment was at the time, but he got one. He never went to the bathroom anywhere again other than the toilet. You know, it's like, no, no, no, you cannot do that.   I mean, it's the foundation of the golden rule. You know, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. But children think they can get away with it.   And then parents justify it by saying, “Oh, but they're only three. Oh, but they're only six. Oh, they didn't really mean it.”   Well, you know what? That's where you've set the foundation right there. Three, five, six, whatever the age, so that when they grow up, they will respect their coaches, their employers, their teachers.   Laura Dugger: (25:40 - 25:55) You know, so good. OK, so another relational question, then what are ways that we can help or support positively shaping our children to have strong and healthy relationships with their friends?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (25:56 - 29:02) Yeah, I think that is such an important question. It was the very first verse we had our children memorize when they were itty bitty, you know, he who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm because research shows that we are the sum of the five people that we hang out with the most. So, who those five are in their circle, it is so important.   You know, it in our opinion, it is essential to model for our children what healthy friendships look like, because, again, they learn that by watching us. It goes back to what's caught, you know, not the top principle. And I think it's essential to have them around other children their own age as often as possible, because I think we can use friendship with their peers, not their parents, not their grandparents, but with peers.   Then we can use those examples and those situations to teach them to include others, to take turns, to read body language, to notice when something's wrong with one of your friends, right? To apologize. Ask for forgiveness too, hey, this one's doing something completely different than I would do, but let's celebrate that.   And a big one is navigating disappointment and hurt. You know, I mean, that's going to inevitably happen with our children and their friendships. So those roles are so important because we can use those experiences to help train and equip them.   You know, for us, our goal was never, ever, ever about popularity. Matter of fact, I don't even like the word. I don't like the you know what it stands for.   But for us, it was really just to focus on their character and the heart issues. So, because of that, we would ask them, you know, not who are you friends with and who do you know, but things like who did you include at lunch today? Did you notice anyone sitting alone?   Did you say anything to them? What kind friend or what kind of thing did you do for a friend today? And, you know, as far as like how we model that for our children and try to encourage that with them, it's going to cause a sacrifice on our end, right?   I mean, when we're allowing and I mean, we might have to take time driving them to, you know, a good friend's house that lives far away or it might be hosting events. It might be goodness. I mean, every mom knows that we've had to wait on our children and wait and wait and wait and whatever that looks like.   But, you know, just modeling that for our children and setting that environment and that groundwork so that they can have these friendships. It's going to be a sacrifice for every single mom. We can and we'll have to sacrifice our comfort.   We'll have to sacrifice our convenience. Right. A louder house, extra groceries, wet towels, muddy shoes like the list could go on and on and on.   But, you know, I know that there have been times when I would hope I would host things in my home, but I would rather be resting, you know, but I can't because I have a house full of 30 kids or staying home because there needs to be a parent there when I'd rather be out on a date with my husband. You know, there's lots of sacrifices that we're going to have to make. But I just think it's super, super important. That we do.   Laura Dugger: (29:03 - 29:25) Well, and I love hearing that side of it. I'm assuming you're such a both and person, too. What did you make sure that you didn't sacrifice?   Because I never hear you saying I only sacrificed for my kids so it could be better for them. But you were healthy all throughout raising them. So, does that make sense?   How did you balance your own?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (29:25 - 30:36) No, and I appreciate you saying that, but I'm certain that there were times when I was tired, when I was selfish and that I didn't do the wise thing. But I will say that that it is so important not to sacrifice yourself because, you know, you can hear it in the analogies of, you know, you can't you can't give what you don't have. You got to fill yourself up first.   And it's all true. You know, the oxygen mask on the airplane before you give it to your children, it's so important. But I equally think it's important for your children to see.   I'm not going to be at home at dinner tonight because you know what? I'm with my besties. I'm with my girlfriends tonight.   That is important to me. Loving one another and being with one another is spoken of more in scripture than parenting, more than marriage. I mean, it is spoken of over and over and over again.   So, I want them to see that, “Hey, tonight I'm going to sacrifice time at home and I'm going to go out, be with my girlfriends”. So, there's definitely some things you have to sacrifice. But I don't want a woman to be so depleted because she's constantly giving, giving, giving, giving, giving that again, when she when their children graduate and leave home, they don't even know who they are.   They've lost sight of who God created them to be.   Laura Dugger: (30:36 - 30:39) I appreciate your balance in that.   Elizabeth Pehrson: (30:39 - 30:41) It's always and in both.   Laura Dugger: (30:41 - 30:43) Yes, it really is.   Elizabeth Pehrson: (30:43 - 30:43) It is.   Laura Dugger: (30:44 - 30:53) How do you think we can help our kids uncover and articulate and pursue their purpose in life?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (30:54 - 32:55) Purpose is huge for me. I'm sure you know that. It's the name of my podcast.   It's why I started the exchange. But I have to tell you, I meet with women every single day, grown women, 40s, 50s, 60s, even 70s that still do not know their purpose. They don't know who they are.   So realistically, for our children, I don't want to have anyone, you know, mom beat themselves up because it does take time to help them understand, you know, who they are, why God put them here, what their purpose is. And I will say some of my kids will grasp it before others. You know, I have a son that just graduated UGA, and he still is contemplating, you know, what does God have for my life?   But as far as purpose goes, whether it's your young children, whether it's your high school children trying to figure out, do I go to college? Do I not go to college? You know, what do I major in?   All of those things. But for anyone, I want to say that it's important that they know their purpose is not what they do. But the why behind what they do.   And if someone is unsure of what that is or, you know, why they do something, I would encourage them to ask questions. That's my biggest thing. When I meet with women, when I talk with them, just ask questions, ask questions.   I mean, we don't have the answers, but to ask questions. And so, I'll ask my children, you know, when they're contemplating some of these things, “Hey, what makes you come alive? What lights you up?”   You know, who do you love to serve? What could you do for hours, hours, and hours and lose track of time? For an older woman, I would say, what did you love to do as a child?   You know, maybe what do other people say to you? Man, you make that look effortless. You are so good at fill in the blank.   What keeps you up at night? What breaks your heart? I think the answer to all of those questions lead us ultimately to what God uniquely put in our hearts to do and how he created us.   You know, when he created each one of us, he gave us something that he wants us to offer to the world. And whatever that is, I would say will lead you to your purpose.   Laura Dugger: (32:56 - 33:00) And do you have yours articulated that you want to share with us?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (33:00 - 34:41) Oh, it took me a long time to go, God, who did you create me to be? And asking some of those questions, it's so interesting. So, you know, I speak, I speak, you know, at the exchange and in the last 10 years, I've started speaking more at churches and other places, and it's my absolute favorite thing to do.   It lights me up. I find great joy in it. It comes natural to me.   And one day when I was asking this woman, I'm like, let me ask you, what did you love to do as a child? Like, what could you just do for hours and hours? And she's like, well, I don't know.   Can you give me some examples? And she said, what did you love to do? And it was like this light bulb went off.   And my mom was very, very, very girly. And I had three older brothers. I was not.   And my mom wanted me to be very girly. So, she would give me for every birthday, Christmas, Easter, Flag Day. It didn't matter what the holiday.   I got a Madame Alexander doll. It's this doll that has it's like on a stand and it just sits there like you don't play with it. You don't you just look at it.   I don't know the purpose of these dolls. I don't know why anyone would want one. But when I tell you I had 100 of them, I literally had 100 of them.   And so, when I was thinking back to what did I love to do as a child instinctively, no one told me to do it. I would get home after school, and I would pull out all of these dolls and I would put them on my bed and I would line them up and I would talk to them. I would tell them all about my day, what I learned, what someone taught me, the injustices of being the only girl in the family, what I'm going to do when I'm older.   And I literally that's what I did for hours. And it was like this light bulb went off. It's like God put that in me.   I was encouraging my dolls. I was talking to them. I was, you know, hopefully motivating them, inspiring them.   Obviously, they couldn't move. But that's what I do now. And encouraging women is my purpose.   Laura Dugger: (34:42 - 35:27) I love that story so much. That's amazing. Do you love The Savvy Sauce?   Do you gain anything when you listen? Did you know that the two ways we earn money to keep this podcast live is through generous contributions from listeners and from our paying sponsors? That means we can promote your business and you're still supporting The Savvy Sauce.   It's a win-win. Please email us today at info@theSavvySauce.com to inquire about pricing for sponsoring each episode. Thank you for your consideration.   Elizabeth, do you have any tips for how we can influence our children to become lifelong learners?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (35:28 - 39:29) Yes, I think it's super important to encourage that in your children. But I also don't think there's a formula for it because some children are naturally more curious. Some are naturally more inquisitive.   I do think it's super important to recognize that, you know, what it is that they want to learn. They want to study because it's going to be different for your children. So, you might not think that they're a learner or someone that's curious, but they're just not curious about what you're curious about.   Right. My oldest son reads a biography of presidents and historical figures all the time. He tries to get through one a week.   I couldn't think of more boring reading, but he loves, loves it. He just takes it all in. He knows all the facts and stats on presidents.   But what's funny is when he was two years old, he could name all of the presidents in order at two years old. I couldn't even do it. I had to hold up the placemat to make sure, you know, that he was right.   I have another son that studies history, loves it, just absolutely loves it. And I have a daughter who probably the one that's most like me. But I will tell you that she will be a lifelong learner of people the rest of her life.   That is her passion. She's curious. She's inquisitive.   She's always asking questions of people. And as long as we know that ultimately, it's just going to be up to them. Some are going to be great learners.   Naturally, others won't be. But I would say if you wanted me to point to something again, it just comes back to modeling it, you know, for our children, because children copy what we love, not what we lecture. They copy what we love, not what we lecture every single time.   And I remember when one time when my kids were little, they wanted me to plant a garden. And I don't know what the opposite of a green thumb is, but that's what I have. I'm like the opposite of that.   And I had no idea. Like, you dig up the grass, you till the soil. Like, when do you plant?   How do you even grow a vegetable? I had no idea. But I said, “You know what? I don't know how to do this, but let's figure it out together.”   We'll figure it out together. And, you know, I suggest that moms would say things to their kids like, I just listened to this podcast, and it really challenged my thinking.   I had never thought of it this way before. Or I don't know anything about that topic you want to talk about, but let's find out, let's dive in and look, go to the library or, you know, whatever it might be. And lastly, I would just say that it really comes down to praising effort, not performance, because if you're saying you're so smart, you know so much about that or you're so wise in that area.   It really is. It doesn't do them anything other than teach them a performance based. Right.   So, it's like I want to say the things the things to them. Like, I am so proud of you when you didn't know what you were doing. You stuck with it.   You figured it out because I think that is a growth mindset instead of like instead of driving in performance anxiety. Like, I don't know how to do this. I didn't figure it out.   I can't. You know, we really want them like, hey, I don't know what it is, but I'll figure it out. You know, and I just think when learning really becomes about grades, achievement, success, whatever it is, curiosity dies, does.   So, it's like at the dinner table. I remember David and I would ask questions of the kids, and we would ask them things like, what did you fail at today? Like, what did you mess up today?   Like, what surprised you today that you didn't know yesterday? And then David and I would share as well. Like, let me tell you what I learned.   Let me tell you where I messed up at work. And it's just important to normalize not having all the answers. You know, one of our big parenting mantras is don't bail, let them fail.   And I think it is so important because we don't want to rescue our children. You know, we want them to not know how to do something so that they can figure it out and then just learn as they go. You know, because that's really where confidence grows.   It grows through problem solving and learning things the hard way.   Laura Dugger: (39:30 - 40:01) Wow, there's so much there. I love I'll kind of summarize a few things. So being curious ourselves, modeling it, having our own interests and sharing those ideas, but I hear this theme of questions, asking our kids questions.   I think that develops critical thinking. But then you helped identify with them what their interests were. And I think that will naturally lead to being a lifelong learner if we find what we're interested in.   You said all of your kids might be different once they found that. They'll probably be lifelong learners in those areas.   Elizabeth Pehrson: (40:01 - 40:32) For sure. And I guess what I meant by some or more so than others like my first born, he is a five on the Enneagram. And so, his he wants to know how everything works and studies it and researches it for hours before he makes a decision where I have some other children that are like, you know, instead of ready, set, go, it's more like go, set, ready, you know, and I'll figure it out later.   I don't care. But he's just naturally more inquisitive to want to know how things work. What makes things tick?   Why does the world work the way it works? You know, that kind of thing.   Laura Dugger: (40:33 - 40:44) Well, I don't know if this goes together or if you would share something different. But do you think there are any ways that we can help our children recognize and utilize their spiritual gifts?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (40:46 - 44:02) Yeah, when I think about spiritual gifts, I kind of think it goes back to the purpose question that we talked about earlier. You know, again, I know a lot of adults that don't know their spiritual gifts yet. They're still questioning.   They're still I'm not really sure is it this or this or I don't know where to lean in. And it's hard for parents to help their children find their spiritual gifts when they don't know theirs, you know, or they don't know how God wired them or what he placed deep inside of them. But one thing that I would offer when you're trying to help your children with that is just as parents just notice things about your children, but notice them out loud.   What God's already doing in your children, notice them out loud, speak them out loud, like pay attention. Which child comforts the crying sibling who organizes the game so that everybody feels included? Who asks deep questions about faith or which child senses when someone, you know, is left out?   You know, those are all clues as to how God wired them and what's deep inside of them. And, you know, you can say things as simple as you know, you know, I noticed you have a gift for encouragement. You really are so good at that.   Or, hey, you know what? You notice what other people miss. That's amazing.   How do you do that? God is always giving you courage. You know, I have a son named Josh, and he's got this big Joshua one nine frame in his, you know, Bible verse in his room.   It's like God has given you a spirit of fear and but of courage and of sound mind, you know, and it's like we try to speak that courage into him or, you know, I have one son that always keeps us organized and on track. And we used to call him the traffic cop because he was always like this. But then I was like, no, that doesn't really speak life into him.   It's more of a judge. So, we were like, you know what? You are so organized.   You keep us on track. And I think when kids hear out loud like their strengths name, they begin to see them as gifts rather than just like, oh, that's just how I am. That's a person that, you know, personality court.   And as you're trying to speak those things out loud and let them see and notice things about themselves that maybe they didn't see. You can also give them opportunities to practice things like, hey, at the dinner table, you're going to pray out loud tonight for the family, for our meal, or, hey, I'd like you to help lead with our family dinner devotions or hey, you know what? I'm going to go serve this weekend at this project.   And I really want you to come alongside me and go with me. Maybe, hey, you know what? I noticed this younger sibling really needs encouragement today.   Could you just go and speak some encouragement to her? You know, handwritten notes. That's a big one in our family.   You know, literally handwritten notes, not just by a card and signing it. Love, Josh, you know, but to write out. And I think that's something that we can instill in our kids because that's a lost art.   But, you know, most importantly, more than any of that, I would say to remind your kids this gift, this spiritual gift that God has given you isn't for you. It's for someone else. Right.   A person of purpose, a hero, whatever you want to call it, is a person who takes who they are with what they have for the benefit of someone else. That's it. It's just like who they are with what they have for the benefit of someone else.   And when you do that, there's always a gift that you can offer somebody else.   Laura Dugger: (44:04 - 44:15) Well, in another biblical topic, we know that it's a biblical command to be hospitable. So, were there any specific ways that you trained your children in hospitality?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (44:16 - 46:33) Yeah. Hospitality was my mom's ultimate gift. It was probably the thing that she modeled the best for my brothers and for me.   We hosted foreign exchange students for months at a time. Every single Sunday. People don't believe me when I tell them this, but it's true.   Every single Sunday, we would invite a family home from church to have lunch with us that we did not know. It was never somebody that we knew. And so, on Saturday, we would prepare the house.   We would prepare the yard. We would cook the food as a family. Everybody had a role in it.   And then my dad would literally find a family that we did not know. And he would invite them home. And my parents always had their home open for Bible studies, for parties, for small groups, whatever, and whomever needed a space.   They made our home available. And I've just tried to do that for my children in my own ways because it looks very differently than, you know, the way my mom did it. But I basically think hospitality is simply just making room.   That's it. It's just making room, whether it's making room at your table, whether it's making room in your home. You know, a lot of moms are perfectionists, and they associate perfection with it.   My home's not clean enough. My home's not pretty enough. It's not perfect enough.   And so, then they don't want to do it. But I can just tell you honestly, with eight children, perfect wasn't an option, you know, anyway, but we did. We had an open-door policy for dinner.   We even had a sign on our garage door. It said dinner's at 6:30. All are welcome.   And so, anybody could come and show up to dinner any night of the week at 6:30. And all of our children, when we invited people over, everybody had to participate, not just those that were excited about it, but like the whole family, you know, whether it was setting the table, greeting the guests at the door, making eye contact and then asking them questions, clearing plates. I mean, just whatever it is.   We wanted every single person to be a part of it. And really, we just tried to say, hey, you know, this is going to cost you something, because sometimes generosity does. You might have to squeeze in at the dinner table and sit like this because we're all squeezed in and that's OK.   Or you might have three air mattresses on your floor tonight and you have to share your room. And I know you don't want to, but that's OK. I mean, it's like generosity is going to cost you something.   And we wanted our kids to know that.   Laura Dugger: (46:34 - 46:47) Oh, such great examples. And do you have any other additional tips for ways that all of our family can actually delight in the abundant life that Christ has, that he's offered each one of us?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (46:49 - 48:59) Yeah, I mean, again, I certainly do not have all the answers, and we could have made service projects and serving others more of a priority in our home, for sure. But I just I think that the abundant life in Jesus it is about serving others. It is about offering others what he's given you.   And, you know, we don't serve to earn love like we serve because we're already loved. I mean, that's really the bottom line. And that changes everything.   And so, I would just encourage families to start serving together, not as a punishment, you know, not as a obligation, but just as a way of life. It's what we do. It's who we are.   And so, because of that, the abundant life for us offering it to others looked like making meals, making cupcakes, making a cake and delivering it to people. We had elderly neighbors all in our street and we mowed their yards. We picked up pinecones.   We went to the grocery store and picked up their medicine for them. You know, we made, again, handwritten notes and cards, just very small, easy, tangible, ordinary things that we could do to love on others. And I would say, let them see your joy in what you're doing, because they children do not like drudgery.   They're just going to resist it. Right. It's like but if they see you delighting and feeling full, full after serving and then giving, they appreciate you know, they appreciate that they see the joy.   And so, it's just it's important. I just think all the way around just there's Andy Stanley always says, you know, following God's principles will make your life better and it will make your life make you better at life. And so, when we follow these principles, when we serve, when we celebrate the kids serving other people with a joyful heart, you know, we celebrate their impact, not their performance, not how grand it was, not how big it was.   But hey, you made someone feel loved today. That's a really big deal. That's a really big thing.   You're eight years old. Not everybody can do that. And I am so grateful that you love Jesus so much that you would be willing to do that.   So, I just think the abundant life comes from following God's principles. You know, it's not having more. It's just loving more.   Laura Dugger: (49:00 - 49:14) Oh, love it. You have so much wisdom to share. So, before we press pause on this conversation, because we get to continue again next week, will you just let us know where we can go in the meantime to learn more from you?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (49:15 - 49:38) Oh, sure. If someone would like to follow me, it's on Instagram. I have my own personal one.   It's called @octomama. My kids made that long time ago. I also have the @theexchangeus.   That is that's my Instagram handle there. And then a long game parenting, writing a parenting book. And so, I do have a handle for that where I post things.   But it's called @long_game_parenting. So, yeah, wonderful.   Laura Dugger: (49:38 - 49:56) We'll link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And Elizabeth, this is your third time on The Savvy Sauce. So, you already know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so is my final question for you today. What is your Savvy Sauce?   Elizabeth Pehrson: (49:56 - 50:36) I would say in light of our conversation today and in light of what I talked about and shared, it's so simple. It's just 12 words. I say it all the time.   Think what you want your kids to be and then be it. Think what you want your kids to be and then be it. And I don't mean this in terms of your career or your profession, you know, but I mean in terms of modeling for our children what we want to impress upon their heart, things of character, because the truth is, it goes back to that.   We can only take our children as far as we've gone ourselves, or we can only help our children as far as we've done the work ourselves emotionally, mentally, spiritually and physically. So, think what you want your kids to be and then be it.   Laura Dugger: (50:37 - 50:46) What a beautiful way to close out our time together today. As always, Elizabeth, you are just effervescent and time flies by when we're having conversations together.   Elizabeth Pehrson: (50:47 - 50:49) I talk fast, so thanks for saying that.   Laura Dugger: (50:50 - 50:52) Well, thank you for being my guest.   Elizabeth Pehrson: (50:52 - 50:55) Absolutely. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (50:56 - 54:10) One more thing before you go.   Have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.   But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.   So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much.   He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news.   Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what he has done for us.   Romans 10:9 says, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So, would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.   I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity.   In Jesus name we pray. Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.   You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned.   So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone. Say it out loud.   Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.   Luke 15:10 says, in the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with.   You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Top Ten from 2025: #1 Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner (Episode 252)   *DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults   Ephesians 5:21 (NIV) Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.   *Transcription of original episode* Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner (Episode 252)   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are a couple of your most important tips for newlyweds? What are your favorite recommendations to share with couples who want to be proactive and enhance their sexual intimacy, even if things are currently going pretty well? Will you define what constitutes a sexless marriage and share  any trends you've seen over the years?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people of all faiths to connect their sexuality with their belief system ─ helping them embrace sex as good and of God. Dr. Clifford is a licensed clinical psychologist and Joyce is a registered nurse and clinical nurse specialist. They are highly respected authors and speakers, in addition to being parents and grandparents.    Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner's Website   At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.    Books By Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner: Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex Restoring the Pleasure The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment Sex FAQ We Didn't Have Time to Cover Today Information on Pelvic Pain   Previous Savvy Sauce Episodes with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner: Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner Maximizing Sexual Intimacy During the Three Most Challenging Phases of Marriage with Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner   Additional Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce: Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau Healthy Sexuality, Emotional Intelligence, and Parenting Children with Autism with Counselor, Lauren Dack Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel Bridging the Gap Between Military and Civilian Families with Licensed Professional Counselor, Coauthor, Podcaster, and 2015 Military Spouse of the Year, Corie Weathers Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma Enjoying Parenting and Managing Conversations About Sex with Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two) Personal Development and Sexual Wholeness with Dr. Sibylle Georgianna Our Brain's Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1 Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2 Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas Sex Series: God's Design and Warnings for Sex: An Interview with Mike Novotny Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler Sex Series Orgasmic Potential, Pleasure, and Friendship: An Interview with Bonny Burns  Sex Series: Sex Series: Healthy Self, Healthy Sex: An Interview with Gaye Christmus Sex Series: Higher Sexual Desire Wife: An Interview with J Parker Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo 215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen 216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen 217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler 218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma 222 Pornography: Protecting Children and Personal Healing, Victory, and Recovery in Christ with Sam Black Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen 224 Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn 227 Resolving Conflict in Marriage with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo Patreon 28 Re-Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder Patreon 23 Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen Patreon 26 Holy Sex with Dr. Juli Slattery Patreon 28 Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder Patreon 29 Remaining Sexually Engaged Through The Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma Patreon 49: Story of Healing from Sexual Betrayal in Marriage: An Interview with Bonny Burns Patreon 52 God, Sex, and Your Marriage with Dr. Juli Slattery   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast.   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Verses: Acts 2:1-8 NIV Exodus 24:12 NIV Ezekiel 36:26-27 NIV 1 Corinthians 12:3 NIV Romans 8:15 NIV Points: Omnipresent          Universal          Personal Activity           Guidance            Conviction How do we know?            1 Corinthians 12:3 NIV             Romans 8:15 NIV

Top Ten from 2025: #2 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe (Episode 256)   1 Corinthians 6:20 CEV "God paid a great price for you. So use your body to honor God."   *Transcription of original episode* Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe (Episode 256)   Emily MacLeod Wolfe is a Nurse Practitioner wellness professional with a passion for helping individuals achieve their health goals in a holistic and practical way.   With 5 years of invaluable experience in the field, Emily has developed a deep understanding of the importance of a balanced lifestyle for a vibrant life.   Emily firmly believes in treating the whole person, not just the symptoms, and takes a comprehensive approach to healthcare. She learned these from her own personal experience of dealing with Hashimoto's thyroiditis and eczema and found the root causes to treat them naturally. She is passionate to help others with the personal knowledge and health freedom she has received.   By combining her medical expertise with a focus on nutrition, exercise, and mindfulness, she empowers her clients to take control of their health and make sustainable lifestyle changes.   With a warm and empathetic demeanor, Emily creates a safe and supportive environment where clients feel heard and understood. She works closely with each individual to develop personalized wellness plans that are tailored to their unique needs and circumstances. Whether you're looking to improve your physical fitness, manage stress, or simply lead a healthier life, Emily is dedicated to guiding, encouraging & supporting you on your wellness journey.   Emily's Website Find a Functional Medicine Provider in Your Area   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you define what it means when you refer to our "gut" and explain why our gut health is vitally important to our overall health? What lifestyle sets us up to have a healthier gut? If you had to simplify it and leave encouragement for each of these areas, what's a good starting point for something we can all start doing, stop doing, and continue doing?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Homeschool Printing Company   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Podcast: Being Intentional with our Health, Finances and Relationships with Elizabeth Dixon Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe Pursuing Health, Not Vanity Before and After Childbearing with Blogger, Speaker, and Coach, Megan Dahlman Sustainable Health & Nutrition with Molly Pfleuderer and Ryan Parnham Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2025: #3 Redeeming Our Time with Jordan Raynor (Episode 255)   “But as for you, be strong and do not lose courage, for there is reward for your work.” 2 Chronicles 15:7 AMP   *Transcription of original episode* Redeeming Our Time with Jordan Raynor (Episode 255)   Jordan Raynor is a leading voice of the faith and work movement. Through his bestselling books (The Sacredness of Secular Work, Redeeming Your Time, The Creator in You, and The Royal in You.), keynote speeches, podcasts, and devotionals, Jordan has helped millions of Christians in every country on earth connect the gospel to their work.    In addition to his writing and speaking, Jordan serves as the Executive Chairman of Threshold 360, a venture-backed tech startup which Jordan previously ran as CEO following a string of successful ventures of his own.    Questions and Topics We Cover: 1. What does it look like, practically, to live on earth as it is in Heaven? 2. From your time studying of the Bible, do you find a difference in how our call to work applies to both men and women?  3. What are some ways we can pass along this wisdom to our children?   Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships  with Joey Odo Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson Practical Life Tips with Blogger, Rach Kincaid Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee Fruitful with Laura Dugger Ordering Your Priorities with Kat Lee Living Intentionally with Shunta Grant Cultivate What Matters in 2021 with Emily Thomas Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons Divine Productivity with Matt Perman Why Limits Are Good For Us with Kelly Kapic   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Homeschool Printing Company   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2025: #4 Holy Spirit Stories and Fruit and Ways to Identify His Guidance in Our Lives with Margaret Feinberg (Episode 274)   Exodus 31:3 NIV "and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—"   *Transcription of original episode* Holy Spirit Stories and Fruit and Ways to Identify His Guidance in Our Lives with Margaret Feinberg (Episode 274)   Questions and Topics We Cover: Joy is a fruit of the Spirit, so will you share some insight into what you've been learning about the Holy Spirit from your most recent research for your latest book, entitled The God You Need to Know? If someone listening has trouble identifying the Spirit's role and God's direction or Jesus' voice in their life, how would you encourage them to grow in attention and recognition of His voice and leading? Do you have any stories to give as illustrations for the Spirit still mightily being at work in the world and in people's lives today?   Margaret Feinberg, one of America's most beloved Bible teachers, speaks at churches and conferences and hosts the popular podcast The Joycast. Her books and Bible studies, including Taste and See, Fight Back with Joy, More Power to You, and The God You Need to Know have sold more than one million copies and received critical acclaim and national media coverage from the Associated Press, USA Today, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, and more. She was named by Christianity Today as one of fifty women most shaping culture and the church today. Margaret savors life with her husband, Leif, and their superpup, Zoom.   Margaret's Most Recent Work: The God You Need To Know Book and Bible Study   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Homeschool Printing Company   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh Special Patreon Re-Release Theology and Discipleship with Ken Baugh 259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen Fruitful with Laura Dugger   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Scripture: Genesis 39:20-40:23  + Suffering for God is an invitation into intimacy with God. 1 Peter 4:12–17 NIVGod's presence can sustain you in any suffering, and suffering can bring you into a greater experience of his presence.   “Dedicated to man who prayed to know Christ more richly even if it meant his cancer returned. The next year he experienced the deepest intimacy with Christ he had ever known - and then he died of cancer.” Finding God by Larry  + Every Painful Station is meant for purposeful preparation.  Colossians 3:23 NIV Proverbs 22:29 NIV + Our Sufferings are often the strategic means to bring about God's good ends.  2 Corinthians 1:3–6 NIV + God never forgets his people and never gives up on his purposes.  Isaiah 49:13–16 NIV Romans 8:38–39 NIVJohn 10:28–30 NIV 

*Disclaimer* This episode contains some mature themes and listener discretion is advised.   Top Ten from 2025: #5 Questions for More Connection and Laughter in Marriage with Casey and Meygan Caston (Episode 269)   2 Corinthians 1:4 NIRV "He comforts us in all our troubles. Now we can comfort others when they are in trouble. We ourselves receive comfort from God."   *Transcription of original episode* Questions for More Connection and Laughter in Marriage with Casey and Meygan Caston (Episode 269)   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you share three of the questions from your most recent book, specifically the ones people have told you unlocked the best conversations in their own marriage? You say you're an unlikely couple to help support marriages. Will you share a glimpse of your own backstory? What are a handful of ideas for ways couples can strengthen their connection with one another?   Casey and Meygan Caston are the Co-Founders of Marriage365. Casey and Meygan were perfect examples of what not to do in marriage. Three years into marriage, they found themselves having racked up more than $250,000 in debt, fighting constantly, and were ready to call it quits. Despite the 12 failed marriages between their parents, they knew this wasn't the legacy they wanted for themselves or their children. They began reading and educating themselves on how to do marriage the right way. The result of their journey is Marriage365, where they millions of people worldwide through their books, social media, retreats, and their online streaming service, Marriage365. Marriage 365 Website Marriage 365 App Marriage 365 Books Marriage 365 Coaching   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Inquisicook   Sample of Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce: 4 Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life With Your Spouse With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen 5 Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau 6 Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma 89 Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery 108 Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder 135 Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand 155 Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1 156 Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2 158 Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta 165 Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas 186 Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler 218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: An Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma Special Patreon Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder 252 Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2025: #6 Choosing Fun and Adventure in Your Marriage and with Your Family: An Interview with Dan & Sam Mathews (Episode 266)   Isaiah 55:12 MSG “So you'll go out in joy, you'll be led into a whole and complete life. The mountains and hills will lead the parade, bursting with song. All the trees of the forest will join the procession, exuberant with applause. No more thistles, but giant sequoias, no more thornbushes, but stately pines— Monuments to me, to God, living and lasting evidence of God.”   *Transcription of original episode* Choosing Fun and Adventure in Your Marriage and with Your Family: An Interview with Dan & Sam Mathews (Episode 266)   Dan and Sam Mathews have been married since 2014 and currently reside in Missouri with their two kids, Canyon and Ember. Since the moment they got married, Dan and Samantha have been living a life of sacrifice and faith. From backpacking in Arkansas to RV road trips across the US, they have always taken the adventurous route. Sam is a lifestyle vlogger and content creator, and Dan hosts a hunting podcast in addition to his social platforms. Together they share their life of adventure online with millions of followers. Follow them on socials @wearedanandsam.    Thank You to Our Sponsor: Inquisicook   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are a few adventures you're so grateful you said yes to in life? Matthew 25:26 MSG says, "That's a terrible way to live! It's criminal to live cautiously like that!" So drawing your wisdom from the Lord, how does your faith fuel your sense of adventure?  How can we begin to enjoy an adventurous life in our marriage and with our family?   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce Podcast: 82 Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller 242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2025: #7 Raising Healthy Children with Dr. Charles Fay (Episode 254)   2 Chronicles 20:12b (NIV) "We do not know what to do, but our eyes are on you.”   *Transcription of original episode* Raising Healthy Children with Dr. Charles Fay (Episode 254)   Questions and Topics We Discuss: When it comes to helping our child find purpose in life, what are some helpful questions to ask and why is this even important? What are some specific examples of beneficial discipline for a variety of ages of children? What are natural and proactive ways we can improve mental health in ourselves and our children?   Charles Fay, PhD, is an internationally recognized author, consultant, and public speaker. He is also president of the Love and Logic Institute, which became part of Amen Clinics in 2020. Millions of educators, mental health professionals, and parents worldwide have benefited from Dr. Fay's down-to-earth solutions to the most common and frustrating behaviors displayed by youth of all ages. These methods come directly from years of experience serving severely disturbed youth and their families in psychiatric hospitals, public and private schools, homes, and other settings. For more information, visit loveandlogic.com.   Dr. Fay's Book, Co-Authored with Dr. Daniel Amen: Raising Mentally Strong Kids   Dr. Amen's Website   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Inquisicook   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*DISCLAIMER* This interview includes some adult themes and is not intended for young ears.   Matthew 9:37 (NIV) "Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few."   *Transcription of original episode* God, Sex, and Your Marriage: Special Patreon Release Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery   Questions We Discuss: For many couples, sex can be a difficult area of marriage and you encourage people that is normal, but you also warn us not to confuse normal with healthy. What is normal for married couples and what is healthy, as it relates to sexual intimacy in marriage? What is God's genius chemical cocktail that we experience during sex? Will you give a brief overview of your four pillars of intimacy?   Dr. Juli Slattery is a clinical psychologist, author, speaker and broadcast media professional with over twenty-five years of experience counseling, and teaching women. She's the president and co-founder of Authentic Intimacy, a unique ministry devoted to teaching God's design for intimacy and sexuality. In 2020, Juli launched SexualDiscipleship.com, a platform designed to help Christian leaders navigate sexual issues and questions with gospel-centered truth. She hosts a weekly podcast, Java with Juli, where she answers tough questions about relationships, marriage, and spiritual, emotional and sexual intimacy.  www.authenticintimacy.com   Other Episodes with Dr. Juli Slattery on The Savvy Sauce: Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery Patreon 26 Holy Sex with Dr. Juli Slattery Life-Giving Marriage with Dr. Juli Slattery   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Female by Design   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2025: #9 Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson (Episode 275)   1 Corinthians 6:19-20 NIV "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."   *Transcription of original episode* Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson (Episode 275)   Hi, I'm Emily Johnson. I am a homeschool mama of two beautiful kiddos, married to my high school sweetheart, and the owner of Gracious Healing, a online nutritional practice that works with families to get to the root of their health issues with a holistic view and approach. I deeply love Jesus and pursue Him in all that I do, including health.  After walking through decades of undiagnosed health issues, I was lead to the world of functional medicine and eventually into the holistic health world. After finding support for my body and that of my kids (who have been on their own health journeys) I was able to pursue further education and began working with clients on a 1:1 basis, to help them find the hope and health that I have found.   Emily's Website   Questions and Topics We Cover: Let's go over various areas and see what quick tips and starting ideas you have for each, beginning with water and hydration: Will you lay the groundwork here? How does sunlight and outdoor time impact our children's health How is nature a natural filtration system for air?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Slumber Sleepwear   Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen   Additional Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Healthy Living: 33 Pursuing Health in the New Year with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan 48 Pursuing Health, Not Vanity Before and After Childbearing with Blogger, Speaker, Coach, and Podcaster, Megan Dahlman 80 Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George 90 Friendship with Drew Hunter 126 Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons — The Savvy Sauce Podcast 129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri — The Savvy Sauce Podcast 212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee   Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2025: #10 Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack (Episode 263)   Mark 10:27 NKJV "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”   **Transcription of original episode** Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack (Episode 263)   Questions and Topics We Discuss: Will you teach us about the various types of abuse? How do we respond appropriately and in a Christ-like manner when someone does report abuse? What are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to each type of abuse?   Stacey Womack is an award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She founded Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services (ARMS) in 1997 and she is a published author and sought after national speaker. Stacey developed and wrote the curriculum used for ARMS programs, including Her Journey for survivors of abuse and Mankind and Virtue for men and women who have used abusive behaviors. She has assisted tens of thousands of people in recovering from both the receiving and giving of abuse. Her passion has grown ARMS, a small grassroots organization, to now having an international reach.   Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services Website   Stacey's Books   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Grace Catering   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick 148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.” 

2 Corinthians 3:17 (NIV) Romans 8:14-17 (NIV) Ephesians 1:13-14 (NIV) John 4:24 (NIV) John 3:3-6 (NIV) 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 (NIV) Romans 8:26 (NIV)

To live in the Spirit is to stay in and follow His current. Many times, we want God to bless what we do but we're doing it His way in the first place. Pastor Wade Smith brings a word for our "Life in the Spirit" sermon season on the Holy Spirit's current that must be followed, has its own rhythm, and is what carries you. We pray this message is encouraging as a reminder that God's ways are always better, they're for our good! Key Scriptures: Galatians 5:25 (NIV) Acts 16:6-10 (NIV) Romans 8:6 (NIV) Connect With Us: To learn more about Victory Church and to get connected, visit us at https://victory.church/ Worship Gathering Times: To see locations & worship gathering times, visit https://victory.church/locations/ Prayer: We believe in praying big prayers to a big God and expecting big results. If you're in need of prayer, our team would be honored to pray with you. You can reach us for prayer at https://victory.church/prayer Giving: At Victory, we steward God's resources well and with radical generosity. If you'd like to give toward the mission of Victory Church, visit https://victory.church/give/ Follow Us: OKC Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victorychurchokc/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/victorychurchok Edmond Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victoryedmond/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/victory.churchEDM Grapevine (Texas) Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victorychurchgrapevine/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089341962919

*Disclaimer: This topic is not intended for young listeners. Please use discretion.   Maximize PLEASURE in Marriage by Understanding Your Wife Better: An Interview with Francie Winslow (Episode 294)   Proverbs 5:19b NLT “May you always be captivated by her love.”   *Transcription Below*   Francie Winslow is a wife, mom, and intimacy evangelist. Three fun facts about Francie:   NO. 1 I saw a glimpse of Jesus' heart one day as a 19-year-old, when I sat in a Thai brothel with girls my age. My friend and I bought two girls for the night so we could take them to dinner and shower them with REAL LOVE. It was there that I realized there was nothing more that I wanted than to give God all of me.   NO. 2 I got married when I was 20, after knowing my husband for only 10 months, and dating him for less than 5 months. Total craziness, I know, but so clearly the way God was leading me.   NO. 3 My husband and I have 6 kids, some with special needs and chronic health issues. So yeah, life right now is a bit crazy. But it never lacks for excitement as I learn about the things they really need and how God is working in me as I serve my family in every season.   Francie's Website   Follow along with her @franciewinslow   Thank you to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Questions and Topics We Cover: As moms, how do we go from “touched out” to “turned on”? How can we realistically choose to still prioritize connection, right in the middle of the busy? After diving into this topic for many years, will you share what you have learned about orgasm?   Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: 4. Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life With Your Spouse With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen 7. Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage With Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner 63 Maximizing Sexual Enjoyment During the 3 Most Challenging Seasons in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner 252. Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 2:05) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.   I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage, while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org slash savvy.   I'm so excited to welcome back my returning guest, Francie Winslow. This conversation is going to be geared a little bit more toward understanding women, but I want you to know it's going to be very beneficial for both husbands and wives. I think husbands are going to appreciate getting a glimpse into how their wife's body works, and how they can love them better and serve them, even in the bedroom, so that they can enjoy a more fulfilling sex life with you as their spouse.   And for wives, I believe you're going to appreciate your feelings or your vague thoughts being put into words, because Francie has this way of articulating big ideas and making them bite-sized and understandable through all of her wisdom. So, not everything will apply to every wife, but I hope that everyone gets to find encouragement and enjoy a deeper sexual connection with your spouse after listening to this message and applying the wisdom.   Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Francie.   Francie Winslow: (2:05 - 2:07) It's so good to be here, thanks for having me.   Laura Dugger: (2:07 - 2:20) Well, I'd love to begin with this idea of sharing sparks, because I was so intrigued the first time that I heard you teach on this topic. So, can you just explain more about this concept?   Francie Winslow: (2:22 - 5:56) Sure. Well, I think the idea really just came from this experience that my husband and I have had of knowing that, kind of in movies, it's portrayed that romance is just always fiery and passionate, and then you get married, you have kids, real life sets in, and it's like, hey, what does this actually look like to have a sex drive or to have a sense of passion in your marriage? And just for some context, because I think context helps, I have six kids from 18 down to 7, some pretty significant special needs, autoimmune diseases.   We've got a lot packed into our little home. And so, then you have a marriage that you want to stay on fire, you want to stay growing, but life is full, life is hard. And so, it's just easy to feel like the fire's just gone out.   And my husband and I work really hard on intentionality in our sex life, and we kind of came up with this idea called sparks, because sometimes that's all you have, is like a tiny spark, and that's actually okay. You think about a campfire, really what you need is you just need a spark, and then you just need to blow on it a little bit, and it turns into embers and then can turn into a fire. And so, we talk about rather than like, I've lost my sex drive, or do you have high sex drive or low drive, kind of releasing that concept and the heaviness that can be around that concept and just talk about cultivating sparks.   And a spark is essentially just a bit of desire, a bit of arousal, a bit of attraction, and we can kind of be so busy in our day that we might have a fleeting thought of, oh, it would be nice to be together tonight, and then you just forget about it. But rather than having a fleeting thought or a sensation in your body and letting it pass, we talk about sharing our sparks. And so, we'll, if I have a thought of, hey, I'm thinking about your biceps today, you know, like something playful and fun, and how much I am attracted to you, I'll text it to him or he'll text it to me.   Or if we're in person, we'll share our sparks by, you know, grabbing each other and pulling each other into the pantry for a second, having a little makeout or having a little, you know, quick, playful petting session, and we're just being playful for 30 seconds here, 30 seconds there in the middle of real life. And it's a way to say, hey, I'm bringing my little spark, you're bringing your little spark, and we're doing, honestly, the best we can in the, in the midst of real life in the midst of real hard to keep our fire going. And it is amazing the impact that that's had on our marriage, because it's just easy to assume, we're just too tired.   And then days go by weeks go by and, and really roommate, the roommate rut sets in or disconnection or even pain because you begin to miss each other. And it feels hard to get reconnected. So, we've found it to be really beneficial and simple just to say, okay, if I have a fleeting feeling in my body, a little sensation, a little attraction, a little arousal, a little desire, a little flirtatious energy, I'm just gonna express it as quickly or as sincerely as I can in that moment.   Like I said, sometimes it's through text, sometimes it would be a quick phone call, hey, you know, I'm thinking about you tonight, or, you know, playfully, like, what are you wearing, or like a text a little, a little invitation to connection later. And it's those little things that make a really big difference. And I would say the physical things, especially like grabbing each other, hey, we'll say to our kids, mom and dad need to have a quick conversation, like real serious, and then we'll go to the laundry room or go to the pantry.   And it's just those literal 30 second exchanges that are so small that make a really big difference in keeping the fire going in our marriage. And it's super meaningful, especially in these really busy seasons.   Laura Dugger: (5:58 - 6:21) I love that because you've also pointed out, I think, in the past that you don't buy into the whole who has high libido, who has lower drive. Rather, you see it as energy that can be fostered. And also, then just that connection of we have the spark, but then sharing it, it can ignite faster.   So, anything else you'd like to add about?   Francie Winslow: (6:22 - 9:35) Yeah, I think that's good to bring it up. I mean, a spark is like a bit of energy. And if you think about like a spark of fire, like that creates something and a spark of desire in your marriage, or a tiny spark of arousal is sexual energy.   And so, I think of it as how do I grow sexual energy. And that, ironically, has to be a really intentional thing. It has to be like, I think about being with my husband, I actually spend time, maybe even my planner thinking, okay, I'd like to have sex, we'd like to have sex at some point this week, what day would be best where I'd have the most energy or where he would be, you know, not as stressed out because he had a lighter workday or maybe not have to early morning, you think about your week, your time, in terms of energy. And when you think about sexual energy, when we might have the most sexual energy or creating sexual energy.   And so, we've realized that we came to that point of kind of forsaking the high drive and low drive identities, because I think they can become Oh, he's the high, I'm the low, or vice versa. And that can feel heavy. And it can feel like pressure, like I feel ashamed, because I'm low, he feels disappointed, because he's high, whatever it might be.   And that can switch for men and women as well. And rather than seeing it as that, and maybe we've just like, life has beat us up. So, neither of us have a high drive at this point.   And but yet, we still have a very active sex life without that clinging to who's high and who's low, because we're both committed to growing our sexual energy. And so for me, that looks like thinking about being with him, it looks like tuning into my body in a sensuous way, as a tired mom, and that looks like holding my cup of coffee or cup of tea intentionally and like feeling sensation in the everyday moments from wafts of you know, steam coming from my coffee to the sunlight on my face to washing in the shower, I can actually realize that I've had years where I will do the whole shower routine and not feel a thing like I didn't even notice sensation from shampoo or from the loofah or from lotion, I just did it robotically to get through the chore of caring for my body. And I've switched really to think of it as being paying attention to my body paying attention to sensation paying attention to how nice it feels to wash my face with a soap that smells good. And it's those things of going slow and being embodied and paying attention to my body and sensations that does transfer over to help me remember, oh, I want to foster awareness of my body.   And being aware of my body is a way of fostering sexual energy, because I'm thinking about how things feel. And I'm thinking about my body and how it's responding to touch. And then that helps me honestly feel more when my husband touches me.   So, we can talk about that later about the issue of kind of feeling numb in our bodies. But I think that that is a reality for marriage later on is that we can become numb in our sex life, because we're just busy, and we're tired, and things are routine, and we're kind of bored. And so fostering sexual energy, getting out of our heads and into our bodies, thinking about our times together, growing our skills, sexually learning about learning about sex, learning about anatomy, all of those things are ways to grow sexual energy, as well as just the playfulness of the sparks and, you know, pulling each other into the pantry and having a quick makeout session, those kinds of things.   Laura Dugger: (9:36 - 10:53) I love those practical examples. And I think you're right; we should get to numbing or what it feels like maybe later on in marriage. But let's go back to Newlyweds or especially new moms, because just for all of marriage, sexual connection is going to cement us together.   So, of course, the enemy of our soul is going to want to do anything at every stage to make us too busy, too distracted, to have that intimate connection. And many times, new parents have things that make it difficult and challenging to connect. But it's not like it gets any easier, because then other difficulties are going to come in, whether that's raising older children or medical issues that come in or perimenopause and menopause.   So, there are always going to be obstacles. But I want us to be wise, whatever season we're in right now, to cultivate our delight and connection in every season. So, I don't know about you, Francie, but the most common phrase I've heard new moms tell me is, I've had people touching me all day.   I don't want him touching me at night. And I'd love for you to offer us a healthier narrative.   Francie Winslow: (10:54 - 14:47) Yeah. Well, I don't get to speak in person very often because of my commitment to be really invested at home with my kids. But I am speaking a few times this spring to some moms' groups.   And the theme is from touched out to turned on. So, I just want to affirm, if anybody is feeling that they are for sure not alone. I hear it all the time as well.   And there is this dynamic of I'm so touched out; I don't want to be touched anymore. And the thing I've learned in understanding our bodies, understanding sexuality, and especially female sexuality is that we are not only coming to the table with our bodies and our anatomy, we're coming with our nervous systems. And so there is this thing at play where we have been having stimulation come at us all day through media, through our phones, through needs of others, and we are touched out.   And another word for that would be overstimulated. And so, I would say you're not broken, you're not hopeless, you're overstimulated, and you're exhausted. And it is very hard for a woman to come into a place of arousal or desire from that place of what's probably fight or flight, that feeling of I just can't be touched anymore.   I am so overwhelmed. I feel like this bubbling over of anxiety or a place of like shut down and disconnected, I want to withdraw. And so those are two nervous system states that we often go in when we are overdone, overcooked, too much has been coming at us.   And so, when we're in that place, and we're feeling overstimulated, and like, I don't want to be touched, I would say the invitation is simply to take a minute and realize, oh, I'm not broken. I'm not actually as unavailable, maybe as I think I need to become available to myself for a minute, I need to reset, I need to remember that my body needs rest in order to connect and communicate that rather than it being like, oh, don't touch me, I've been touched out. And it looks like feels like rejection.   It's more of an invitation to care for yourself, knowing that, oh, in order to be available for connection, I need to see it not as another chore, but a place to be nourished and a place to reconnect to my own body. And that sexuality was meant to be a place of nourishment, and care and rejuvenation, not just another need to be meeting. And so, I think that's the other mindset shift is we need a minute to rest, reconnect to our bodies, maybe a shower, maybe a bath, a minute to say, okay, I'm very overstimulated, I do need a second.   And then to see that. And this is a call out to the husbands to like your job is to love your wife so well that she comes out of a sexual experience nourished. And if that's not happening in your marriage, know that that's actually the design of sexuality.   And it might take some communication and work to switch our mindset. Because a lot of times we've been raised with a mindset that maybe X is a man's need. And another thing we have to do as wives, but that's actually a real huge lie.   It's not about a man's need. It's about connection. And it's about nourishment.   And it's about fully giving ourselves to one another and being cared for. And so what amazes me is the power of sexuality, even orgasm release, pleasure to be able to wash out a woman's nervous system and like a bath like oof, I got reset, I got this sense of the rush of the sexual hormones, the serotonin and the oxytocin and this place of deep connection is God's design for us. And so having this flip a mindset of it's not another need I have to meet, but it's actually a nourishing gift to me to get into my body to receive pleasure.   There is a transition I think we need to give ourselves grace for to like, okay, I might want to shower and I might want to get out of my head and back into my body a little bit, but it really was designed to be a gift. And so that's, that's kind of my invitation is for women to receive it as a space that should be nourishing and can be nourishing and actually really healthy for her mind, body and spirit, even in tired seasons.   Laura Dugger: (14:48 - 15:10) I appreciate what you said there, because you're flipping it from all day, maybe we are receiving very unpleasant touch. But this is a different type of very pleasant touch to be receiving, or we've been giving all day. This is the refilling, nourishing.   And I think if we change our minds first, then our body can follow.   Francie Winslow: (15:10 - 16:10) And there is an element to I think, creating an environment that does feel safe to let go. Because I think if you think about moms, they're giving all day, they've got the babies nearby, the monitors on, you know, the laundry piles huge, like there's all these distractions, and it doesn't actually feel like that safe of an environment to be nourished. And so, I would say even take that into consideration of what would make sexual experiences with your husband feel nourishing to you.   And it might mean a really nice candle is lit or just a few things to change the environment to signal to your nervous system. Oh, yeah, this is a time of nourishment, not just okay, now I've got to switch, you know, here and meet another need. But this is a time to be beautiful.   I would maybe put a noisemaker on for you, you know, to drown out some of the feeling that you're going to be heard, or you might wake up the baby, make sure the door is locked. Just take a minute to feel like you're giving yourself a gift in that time as well. And sometimes that can help to kind of quiet the environment to make it feel like a place where you want to let go and you really want to receive.   Laura Dugger: (16:11 - 16:51) That's good. And the husbands can be so participatory with this, even that they have so much strength and usually more energy and sex gives them energy. So, if they can find creative ways to, I think, separate her as much as possible from mom to lover.   So, I mean, people are aware of these like put if the husband does the bedtime bath routine or can finish the dishes or just do those physically taxing tasks so that she can have that transition time. I think there are just endless ways to be creative. And I'm assuming husbands would be so motivated to love and serve their wife that way.   Francie Winslow: (16:52 - 17:08) Yeah, yeah, I think it's definitely a reality to think, okay, what does it look like for us both to step forward and really love each other? Well, and that will just probably be different for every couple but being able to know that you can use your voice and say that, hey, I really want to connect this would help me.   Laura Dugger: (17:09 - 17:25) That's good. So, we've addressed that obstacle then of physical touch. But let's also talk about the constant noise in our minds as women.   So, how can we move from getting stuck in our head to waking up our body?   Francie Winslow: (17:26 - 21:44) Yeah, well, I mentioned it a little bit earlier. But I'll know for for me, I feel if I'm not very purposeful in the way that I take in technology and take in my phone, I can easily just live in a state of perpetual kind of humming anxiety, and not really know why. I mean, apart from like the parts of life that are really hard, and paying attention to, okay, what am I allowing in?   What am I allowing to have access to me? What am I meditating on? How much white space?   Am I giving my heart or am I like listening to a podcast 24 hours a day, or, you know, constantly having stuff in versus creating space for quiet in my body. And in my heart, just even to hear myself breathe, or to sit with some instrumental music and just be for a and not be performing or producing or consuming something. That's been a big thing for my nervous system, honestly, in that context.   But I think the other thing that I mentioned earlier was our five senses. And I talked to women all the time who say I'm struggling with pleasure, I'm struggling with orgasm, I don't feel a whole lot. And there's a couple reasons we don't.   But one of the reasons is we live so much in our head, with all the things we have to think about our to do list that never ends the and I think the part of having a phone is that the Instacart is there, the Amazon is there, the emails from the school are there, it's just always something that we need to be thinking about or processing. And that can cause us to live so much in our heads that we kind of live from our, our head up our neck up, and we neglect the fact that we have an entire body. And so I often be reminding myself, get out of your head and into your body feel, feel even just like your belly exhaling when you breathe, like that's so small, but if you can slow down enough to take five slow deep breaths, you'll feel your heart rate go down, you'll feel the sense of awareness even of God's presence of the sense that He's with you the sense that you know, you can navigate whatever you need to with peace. And so, I do a lot of things like take a walk without my phone. I'll sit on my back porch even just to sit in the sun for a minute to let the sun on my body and I'm always aware at this point, I want to feel things in my body because God gave us five senses to be present to the moment to be present to our kids to be present to Him.   There's that classic book, Brother Lawrence, the practice of the presence of God. And it's this practicing awareness of God's nearness. And it's a practice.   And not to make a leap that makes two people, people feel too uncomfortable, but to practice pleasure is a thing to get out of your head and into the sense of awareness in your day of sensation, a beauty of love of the presence of your kids, their smiles, their faces, and then in pleasure to be super aware of the presence of your husband, of your own self with him of the love that you're having of the feelings you're having in your body.   And the noise that comes at us all day basically robs us of that awareness. And so, I think that the world's system of operating right now is maybe intentionally unintentionally, I'm not sure, bent on making us numb to God, to each other, to ourselves, to our souls, and to true genuine connection. And so, I think it's a real fight for me to live connected to myself, to God, to others.   And what does it look like to really be present? And that's actually such a unique key to pleasure, to sexual pleasure that we wouldn't necessarily connect. We would think it's about like, oh, tips or positions, but it's actually about becoming present.   And the noise coming at us tries to rob us of that presence, that awareness. And so, I think it's a very integrated conversation, whether it's talking about spiritual intimacy, sexual intimacy, obviously friendship, wherever we're trying to connect with someone or God, but the call is to be present and embodied. And that's what Jesus was.   He was an embodiment of God. And He came to actually connect in a genuine face-to-face way. And yeah, so I think of when I think of the noise of my phone, the noise coming at us all the time, it's just draining of my energy, of my sexual energy, of my emotional energy, on all the levels.   And it's constantly a reminder of God saying, “that's not your design. Your design was connection and presence and how that hits all the markers in all the relationships.”   Laura Dugger: (21:45 - 24:26) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. From pre-marital to parenting to the emptiness phase, there is an opportunity for you. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even when it seems things are going smoothly, so that they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their journey. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for.   During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and more. I've stayed on site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org/savvy, S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Getting out of our mind, getting into our body, how you said paying attention to your coffee and those five senses outside the bedroom, then when you're inside the bedroom, I remember Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner just saying, thank God for every tingly feeling that you get. I think you're more aware of your body in those times of intimate connection if you're practicing that outside of it, which is what you're advising. I guess one other super practical tip, I love it that a friend years ago told me the way she transitioned from work into sexual connection with her husband, they invested in a massage table. She would get 20 minutes or whatever on the table and he would just relax her head to toe and then they enjoyed that connection so much more.   Francie Winslow: (24:27 - 28:23) Absolutely. Yeah, there's different types of touch. I talk about this in one of my podcasts, but there's therapeutic touch, which is like, “hey, I think I need a foot rub. I just need to relax.”   Then there's nurturing touch. I will walk up a lot of times to my husband and just stand there and that signal of like, just hold me.   I just need to be touched in that way, not groped. I don't even need to be playfully touched. I just need to be secure and held.   Sometimes that's what we need to let go and let our nervous systems calm down. I will say even like a hug for 30 seconds, you can feel your body, hug until you feel yourself let go because you feel yourself soften. Noticing the sensations of, Wyatt and I went on a date the other day and I could feel myself.   I was just noticing the sensations of my body and I'm like, I'm gripping. I'm gripping everything. That's not a great way to go into a date.   Talking through like, okay, what is it that my body is gripping onto? It's so much stress, so much pressure. Then we ended up having a great date, but I was able to name those things like, what is my body needing?   What am I feeling? Where am I now? That just comes from awareness, and it comes from practicing being present to what's happening in my body, in my nervous system and what do I need?   There's therapeutic touch, nurturing touch. There's obviously playful touch like tickling or just being flirtatious. Then there's sexual touch.   There's a wide range of what sexual expression and nice and gentle touch can look like that can open you up. I think getting out of your head and into your body and not being afraid of your body. I think as Christian women, we were raised with a real fear of our bodies and a real fear of pleasure.   I know I was feeling like the word pleasure was even a really dirty word. It wasn't something I should be thinking about. It wasn't something that I had permission to even explore because it had a real sense of negative connotation to it.   God's just really set me free from that because I'm realizing it's my design. There are countless pleasure zones all over my body by his good design, by his orchestration. He made my body.   There's not one part of my body he's ashamed of, and I don't need to be either. Realizing that God did make the female body with way more than double the capacity for pleasure than a male body has. That's a gift for us.   It's a gift for our emotions. It's a gift for our mental health. It's a gift for our creativity.   You said men get more energy from sex, but actually, it's like when a woman really let's go and she really let's go because we have a hard time letting go. That doesn't mean crazy. It just really means you turn off your brain, and you really receive.   There is a restart that happens. Usually, creativity does flow because it's the sense of different parts of your brain are reactivated and you are nourished. Sexuality was meant to be a creative act in procreation, but also in energetic movement through your body of what love creates.   Love multiplies. Love grows. Not being afraid of our bodies, not being afraid of feeling, but praising God, like the penner said for every tingle.   I'll say in terms of awareness in the bedroom, if you're having trouble feeling or you're having trouble feeling pleasure or reaching orgasm, there's three tips that I've heard that I really like is breath, breathing in that moment, coming back to your breath because a lot of times we can be intimate and still be in our heads. Our bodies are there, but our minds are somewhere else. We're thinking about the grocery list or thinking about why am I taking so long or is he having fun or do I look not good?   Do I not look good to him? Where our brains are stuck in a lot of different places and getting out of our head back into our body with breath. Slowing down, really conscious, slow breathing, movement, going back and forth, and then vocalization, like using a moan or a hum or a yes.   Those three things are often helping you get back in your body, helping bring your attention back to sensation and can enhance the moment through paying attention in those ways.   Laura Dugger: (28:24 - 28:59) Those are so good. The only one I would add, I'm sure you would incorporate this as well, is prayer. I've heard a wife tell me before that she will pray every time they come together, whether she's praying just in her mind, not even out loud with her husband, but just, Lord, help me experience orgasm or help us to enjoy this time or whatever the prayer is.   You also brought up playful touch then. Can you just unpack why play is so powerful as it relates to our sex life?   Francie Winslow: (29:01 - 30:36) Well, I think that we can get so serious in life and we can get so exhausted and overwhelmed and then sex can become a task, or we just are now stressed about it. For us, quite simply put, playfulness has just been an invitation to revitalize our connection and to remember that we don't have to take things so seriously. I think our playfulness has come through even just like silly text messages.   I say silly, but they're intimate, they're playful, they're between us. Little things that we've done, like you have certain names for certain positions and so you can speak in code and that can be a fun way to connect where nobody else knows what you're talking about, but you're sharing connection. Getting your heart rate up together, things like playing literally, like playing a sport, exercising together, having playful times together outside of the bedroom is so powerful.   Getting your heart rate up together is actually a real libido booster. If you go work out, you just feel this energy together in general or going on a walk, we like to do that. By the time you come back from your walk, if you've walked briskly, you feel this sense of connection and a little bit more drive.   You can even make games like, hey, whenever I wear this necklace, it's me giving you a little bedroom wink. We've done that where we have little signs to each other that, hey, I'm thinking about you, I'm so into you, see this necklace I'm wearing. There's just so many playful ways that you can connect that remind you, oh yeah, we're on each other's teams, we're for each other.   This is not a have to, this is a get to, and this is a special place just for us to really build the connection.   Laura Dugger: (30:37 - 30:52) One step further then with that play and movement, I've heard you talk about for females, nonlinear movement of our body. Can you share about how that, again, outside the bedroom can impact inside the bedroom?   Francie Winslow: (30:52 - 35:31) Yeah. I have a membership community called The Circle, and we talk about this a lot because it's a bit like rewiring, especially Christian women's minds to connect to their bodies in a genuine way. Our culture in general has raised us to not embrace the masculine but requires us to be masculine in a lot of ways, just with how what's required is getting stuff done, standing in line, standing in traffic.   It's very much task-oriented, get stuff done, stay busy. The female design is much more nonlinear. It's much more creative.   It's much more life-giving than just task and just to-do list all day. When we stay in that do, do, do, and go, go, go mode, we lose our ability to flow and to be playful as women. I know when I am in task mode all day, I feel rigid rather than open.   By God's design, the female body itself speaks of curviness. It speaks of receptivity and openness, but sometimes in our structured lives that we lead where we have to get stuff done, we close off that space through stress and through just this response of rigidity and overwhelm. Movement is a great way to loosen up, to open up to access playfulness as a woman.   I've heard people call it nonlinear movement, and I think that's great because literally you don't have to be a good dancer, but it's just begin moving. I've taught in this membership group that I have just practical ways. We practice and we laugh and we talk about how it's going, but it's really creating new neural pathways in our own brains, new habits, new ways of embodying our own selves in our lives that remind us of who we are and help us access a playfulness.   What that looks like for me is I can just be brushing my teeth, and I'll just do figure eights with my hips. That's just nonlinear movement, and it's just a way to move my body and be like, oh, yeah. It's like doing shoulder rolls.   You're like, oh, I didn't know I was so tense. I didn't know I was gripping. I didn't know my posture was all hunched over because I've just been tense all day, and our bodies are holding on to that tension.   Nonlinear movement is playful. It's also a way to release tension. It's also a way to remember, oh, yeah, I'm a woman, and I have hips, and it's fun to move.   I'm not even that great of a dancer. I don't feel super sexy when I move, but then I remember I can be playful, and it kind of unlocks another layer of our sensuality and our beauty and helps us remember that we are lovely and attractive and desirable and not just kind of to-do list on stairways walking around getting stuff done. Nonlinear movement can look like a lot of things.   I've spent my 39th year, I decided on my birthday, I'd been thinking, reading, praying a lot about it, but my 39th year, I decided I'm going to befriend my body this year. I did things that whole year, like nonlinear movement, like just cultivating pleasure in my body in a lot of different ways to really befriend and honor my body and call it good, like God called it, because I had lived for so long kind of at a distance from my body and afraid of my body and afraid of, honestly, femininity in a way because I didn't know how to grid that, and I didn't know what it looked like to be holy and to be integrated, to be holy and to be an alive sexual woman. It just kind of seemed like I needed to shut most of it off, and God's been doing a healing work in me for the last several years, and that's part of it, is just simple things like dancing in my room when nobody's looking, turning on music that doesn't have to have like a certain lyric or notion to it, but I just get to move, and there's something about moving our bodies where we get to really let go of a lot and remember the design that we have for creativity and beauty, and yeah, that's just a fun way to do it, but a little practical is trying figure eights while you're doing your toothbrushing or stirring your spaghetti.   A funny one that makes me laugh and makes everybody laugh when I have them do it is spelling your name with your hips, and so you just realize, oh, oh my gosh, you know, you're moving your hips in all sorts of directions, but by the time you finish, you feel more open, and you feel more alive and awake in your body, and I think, I know I'll speak for me, I feel many days if I'm not intentional very unalive in my body because I just am exhausted, but it's those intentional places of befriending our bodies, paying attention, and honoring our beautiful bodies allows us to enjoy it more, being a woman, being a wife, being present, and it sure does make it a lot more fun to participate in it rather than just feel like life is happening to us all the time.   Laura Dugger: (35:32 - 35:59) Okay, and then speaking of that, life happening to us all the time, we talked about maybe newlyweds or new parents, but as we transition into middle age, maybe we're parenting older children at that point, or we're assisting with aging parents, or facing demands with work or our health. How can we realistically still choose to prioritize connection right in the middle of busy?   Francie Winslow: (35:59 - 36:01) Yeah, you mean with our spouses?   Laura Dugger: (36:02 - 36:02) Yes.   Francie Winslow: (36:02 - 41:05) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it, for us, I'll say it comes from really just seeing it as a priority. It's one of our biggest rocks, you know, like when you have a jar, and you have rocks, and you only have so much room, you have to figure out what are your biggest rocks, and intimacy together is for sure one of our biggest rocks because we see what we've called, I've called forever the ripple effect of sex, that there is a ripple effect that comes from intimacy and connection, I think by God's design, and it's the same with our connection with God, that there is a ripple effect that comes from our connection with God. When we're connected and we're growing with God, other things benefit, right?   We see it in our ability to show up as parents, and at work, we see the ripple effect of intimacy, and I'll say the same thing mirrors in marriage, that there is a profound ripple effect from sexual intimacy specifically, and there's other forms of intimacy in marriage that are really important, but sexual intimacy is the only type of intimacy that is shared in marriage alone, and so you can have deep friendships, and partnerships, and ministry, and prayer teams, and, you know, small group leaders meetings, and you can have growth, and closeness with a lot of types of people and groups, but sexual intimacy is the full giving of yourself, naked, unashamed, fully to another, and it's a real place of vulnerability, and I think as we're aging, as I'm beginning perimenopause, as we have almost, we're launching our first kids into college, we've got a bunch of special needs younger kids, what I'm realizing is I don't just need to have sex because it's good for our marriage, we need it because it's good for us. We really need it for our own nervous systems.   We need it for comfort, and for grief, and for trauma processing, and for the bonding of us together, because we're clinging to each other as seasons change, and as dark seasons are on us, it's almost like this refuge that God has given us, and so I think seeing sexual intimacy as a really deep place of provision, not just, oh, it's something we need to do, like exercising, because it's good for us. It is, but there is a deeper invitation to the meaning, and the power of oneness, and union, which is, again, that reflection of our union with God, and it's a gift for our bodies, our nervous systems, in changing seasons as well.   It's a real place of connection that we need, and so I think in terms of prioritizing it, it's one of our big rocks, and so this point, 20 years in, it's not unusual for us to have intimacy many times every day of the week. I guess I just say that as our marriage is 20 years in, and it's more deep, and more beautiful, and more pleasurable, and more meaningful than ever, and in my changing body, in our tiredness, I feel more confident, and more awake to my body than ever, and I love that, that I feel more confident than I did when I was 20, right? I feel more pleasure, because we know each other more, and we've leaned in to learn each other, and we've wept together, and we've grieved together, and we've gotten lost together, like we've had the highs and the lows, and that's, I think I want to cast that out as vision for young marriages, like it's worth it to keep growing, it's worth it to lean in, it's worth it to know each other, and to continue to press on together, because there's deep riches in that intimacy, and for friends who are in the older years, I'm walking with women right now who've been married 35 years, and they're waking up to their best marriage ever, because they're waking up to their bodies, and they might be 60 years old, but they're finally confronting the shame that's held back, they're finally confronting the lies about pleasure, and about sex being for a man only, and they're realizing that they have an entire body to get to know, and to share in marriage, and it's like a whole new territory that they're encountering, and there's freedom and healing happening, because they've had to have conversations that are hard, but actually unearth things that need to be healed, and I think that's the other bit of sexual intimacy that doesn't often get talked about, is that sexual intimacy is so intimate, it does not occur without the heart being present, and so if hard things come up in sex, it's usually because hard things need to come up, and vulnerability and intimacy requires, intimacy requires vulnerability, and that vulnerability is the space for the hard things to come up, and then in the presence of God, through prayer, through love, you address those, it might be hard, it might be painful, and then there's space to say, hey, let's work through that, let's lean in, let's keep loving each other, find help, and it continues to grow the marriage deeper, and so that's what I've found in our marriage, and with women I'm walking with, is that it's not always an easy uphill, you know, like ascent, but it's highs and lows, but over time, throughout the seasons, prioritizing oneness, prioritizing sexual communication, prioritizing time together, to practice pleasure, getting to know each other, those are the spaces where actually I've seen God do a lot of healing.   Laura Dugger: (41:07 - 42:40) I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product, so I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living.   You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax-deductible so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.   Well, and even with you sharing how often you're connecting, that requires saying no to some other, probably sometimes good things, too.   Are there any practical examples you have, again, of what you and Wyatt have not prioritized in order to give this time and space?   Francie Winslow: (42:41 - 45:06) Yeah, I mean, I don't want to put ourselves on a pedestal or sound so radical, but we really try to limit screen time and phones a lot. I would say my husband is very radical with this. He really is never on his phone and makes it a point to not be, and I appreciate that in the way he leads in our family.   I feel like I'm doing stuff that needs to be done on my phone, and I can easily get pulled into scrolling, but that's been a big thing we say no to. We just really don't do that in our beds. We don't bring it into our bedrooms.   We don't, because we just see that it can easily be like it just pulls us away from each other, and so that's kind of a non-thing, which I think is a big culture shifter that phone is not a part of our marriage or our time in the evenings. And yeah, with a lot of kids, we definitely have to prioritize. We do hotel dates quite frequently, which I can't remember if I've talked to you about or not, but that's been a huge gift in busy seasons of parenting.   We scoot away to a local hotel for just a day, not even an overnight. We'll do like a long date, like maybe a four-hour stretch, and what that really gives us in terms of not just quantity, because it's not as much quantity, it's the quality of connection that we found, and being in a hotel room for four hours or so, we really get to let go and focus. And so, I think that that's a big part of it is, oh, it's not just about like checking the box, but it's really letting go together and learning.   And those have been some of the hours we've spent together. It's like learning what feels good, learning how to linger with each other, learning how to go slow and not be rushed, learning how to communicate and learning how to care for one another. We'll do like king treatment or queen treatment, where you spend 20 minutes on one person, and then the other person gets 20 minutes, and you take turns, and it's just this exchange of care that doesn't happen in a busy life.   But we found that sneaking away to do that every couple of weeks has been a real treat to figure out how to prioritize. But yeah, definitely saying no to... And I mean, the truth is, it doesn't take that long to connect.   So, it's not like you have to say no to massive things, but I think it's saying yes to putting your energy towards each other and not spending your energy completely on every other thing except your marriage.   Laura Dugger: (45:07 - 45:25) Okay, well said. And maybe somebody's hearing this and they're not there right now. So, regardless of whatever season of marriage they're in, how can they revive a sex life that's been asleep or has become complacent?   Francie Winslow: (45:25 - 46:44) Yeah. Well, I think if it's a place where you are desiring and you are the one desiring, I think it's saying, hey, I really desire connection. What would it look like if we tried this again, if we leaned in?   And if hopefully there's a sense of, yeah, I miss you too. I miss us too. And if not, it's a space where you can grow in your own understanding of your body, how your body works, and you can continue to learn how your spouse's body works and try to love them even without making a big plan, but just showing up more skills or showing up with more investment at times can communicate, hey, I'm showing up with a little bit more knowledge and I'm enjoying it more.   Because I think when you learn a little bit more, you can receive more, you can be more present. And sometimes just working on you and your mindset can have a trickle-down effect. But I think definitely an invitation to say, hey, we're busy and I value you and I value us and I just want more connection.   What does that look like? Yeah, I think it definitely takes two. It takes two to really grow, to be honest.   And so, I think it can be a place where even that can be a hard conversation that has the potential to unearth, hey, are we too busy? It does require a sense of investment. And sometimes that can require conversations.   Laura Dugger: (46:45 - 46:56) Francie, also, you are a wealth of knowledge. You've studied this topic for years; you've brought it before the Lord. So, what can you share with us that you've learned specifically about orgasm?   Francie Winslow: (46:57 - 50:30) So, orgasm for anybody who is brand new is simply like a fast contraction of your muscles in your pelvic floor and around the nerve endings that are linked to pleasure sensors in your brain. And so, when those contract really fast, it feels like a whoosh or a powerful punch of pleasure, and it brings tingles and contractions, and it feels great. So, people come to me a lot.   They're like, I can't have an orgasm. And so one of the biggest keys to having an orgasm, again, is understanding your body and not expecting your body to work like a man's body, not expecting it to just automatically work by penetration, which is a lot of times what men think is if you just have intercourse, you should have an orgasm. But a woman's body is much more intricate, and she has a clitoral structure kind of hidden behind her external anatomy.   So, you can't see it all, all the time. I do have one here. I have other models, but this is a clitoris.   And so, this is hidden behind your outside vaginal tissues. And so, but this is all pleasure anatomy. And so, your clitoris has over 10,000 nerve endings and that is over double what a man's penis has.   We're maybe afraid to touch our bodies, but this is good in God's design, and it is that the clitoris is stimulated. And so, it can be manually, you can touch it, your husband can touch it. Sometimes before sex, you can have orgasms or even during, definitely during, but that comes with stimulation.   And so I think sometimes women think I just, it should happen automatically, but it happens through blood flow to your tissues, to your whole body really, because your whole body becomes kind of alive with pleasure, but the blood flow allows engorgement of all of this tissue, which allows it to feel better and allows it to feel pleasure. And so, a clitoris, a clitoral orgasm is one type of orgasms, but there's lots of types of orgasms that your body can experience with also a female superpower. And it happens when we're able to let go and we're able to actually feel, which comes back to our earlier conversation of being awake in our bodies and aware of sensation and connected to feeling in our body and connected to awareness.   And so, orgasm is a beautiful gift from God. There's many types of orgasms. Women can have multiple orgasms.   That means can peak over and over and over again, not just once, but the bottom line is when God created, he created male and female, but he created woman last. And it seems like when you look at it metaphorically, that woman is like the exclamation point of beauty and pleasure. She was like the final, yes, she has double the amount of pleasure capacity than a man does.   And I think it's because it delights God that women are fully alive in their bodies. And so, I do have a pleasure masterclass on my website because it took me and wound up and afraid of my own body, but this is God's design and he's not afraid or ashamed of our bodies. And the more we understand how God designed our bodies, the more we can really celebrate his design.   And to me, that's worshipful. And it's honoring to him as our creator, because he made us wonderfully, right? And the Psalm says that my soul knows well, and it's like this catching up.   He made us wonderfully. Do we believe it? And part of is education and understanding that our bodies are good.   So, orgasm is a great gift, definitely one worth exploring and learning.   Laura Dugger: (50:31 - 50:41) It's so wonderful, Francie. And are there any other practical ways that we can maximize pleasure in our marriage, both for husbands or wives?   Francie Winslow: (50:43 - 53:59) Yeah, I think this sounds a little bit silly, but practicing pleasure is a real thing. We often feel like I should just know how to do it. It should just work, but it takes communication and it takes time.   And going back to awareness, it takes us being able to understand our bodies. And so, I know the pinners recommend this as well. It might push some people's buttons, but it's exploring your own body.   You have to know your body to share it well. It's a really awkward and uncomfortable thing to not know what's down there and then supposed to be giving it away to your husband. That's I think a sin against ourselves, to be honest, because we are essentially violating ourselves if we don't even have connection to ourselves.   And then we're trying to give it away and expecting our bodies to express or experience something. We have to be embodied, connected to loving, blessing, and agreeing with the fact that our bodies are good. And that doesn't happen unless we know our bodies.   And so, I would say that the pivotal thing for me and many women, and it might make people feel uncomfortable, is you must know your body. You must experience your body. You must believe it's good.   And in order to be able to share it genuinely without shame, because shame is the biggest pleasure killer. And shame is straight from hell, straight from the enemy in the garden that they were originally naked and unashamed. And in comes the deceiver and the accuser of God's children.   And they suddenly become aware of their nakedness and covered in shame and they start hiding. And so, God has an invitation to us to release shame in our sexuality as we bring our sexuality into his light, into the light of his word, into his presence. And part of that is for me, it was definitely realizing my body is good.   So, spending time with your own body, getting to know what feels good for the sake of being able to share it with your husband is a big breakthrough point for a lot of women. And even confronting like, oh, when I'm alone with my body, I actually feel so much shame. Talk to God about that.   God, do you feel ashamed of my body? Is it a shame that I'm sitting here with my body? Can I look at my body in the mirror and actually say, thank you, God, for this beautiful body?   Can I take a mirror down there and explore my body and have joy rather than shame? And if we can't have joy and if we only have shame, that's okay. That's just an invitation to healing.   And so that's what I mean when I say sexuality is also this invitation to healing because shame is so tightly wound around the conversation and shame is the opposite of what Christ died for. He died that we would be free and that it's not this selfish freedom. It's this life-giving freedom where love can really be shared and expressed.   So, I would say that the number one thing is that women love and know their bodies and then can share them from that place of sharing a gift that they have actually received first. Because until we receive the gift, it's an awkward thing to try to give it away. And I think our husbands are hopefully wanting and willing to learn too.   And so, it can be a joint effort that we learn about our bodies together, that we discover our bodies together, learn how to communicate and learn how to love each other well in a place of joy and care. Because that, I think, is a beautiful space of worship to God.   Laura Dugger: (54:01 - 54:43) And just to echo what you said, I think it was Dr. Jennifer Kanzen who shared the same sentiment of women, it's really hard to see your private parts. So, get a handheld mirror and look and see what every part is and be aware on your body. I also want to make sure people aren't hearing what you're not saying.   And so, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I don't hear you saying, be selfish and masturbate to take away time from you and your spouse being together. You're saying, learn your body and your parts so that you and or be together with your spouse while you're doing this so that you can both experience greater pleasure. Is that right?   Francie Winslow: (54:43 - 56:15) Exactly. But what I'm not saying is satisfy yourself apart from your husband and then don't ever connect. Nobody wants that.   That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about building sexual intimacy in your marriage and sexual healing in your journey as a woman who wants to be integrated. And so, yeah, I think there could be a whole conversation on this because it can be a hot button.   And I'm glad you're willing to go there because we need honesty. We need our daughters to be able to have this sort of conversation with us and not feel like there's things that we just need to do in secret. Because I think anything you feel like I have to have this as a secret, that's also like, ah, like, let's talk about it.   And so, what I call self-cultivation is not a secret. And it's something you share with your spouse. And it's something that, hey, I want to get to know my body.   And that's actually in my journey. My husband was like, hey, you need to get to know your body. I bless you to like have some alone time because you're so wound up in shame.   You don't even know. You can't even feel. And so, it really, it was rooted in our experience as him commissioning me basically to befriend my body.   And I think that that's, it's a different paradigm, but I appreciate the many sex therapists who are believers that agree with that menu, that idea of you have to experiment and explore to know how to genuinely articulate what you want rather than just laying there and assuming your husband can read your mind. And so, it's, again, a place of communication and saying, hey, this is where I'm at. Is this okay?   What does this look like for us? And this is my desire is intimacy and connection with you.   Laura Dugger: (56:16 - 56:41) And I love how you are explaining how you invite the Lord into that process for every person to ask him, what do you have for me? What do you want me to learn? What do you want to reveal to me about sex?   And none of us want to miss out on any good gift that he has to offer. So, France, you could continue teaching us and you have so many resources. Can you just share where you would direct us to go online after this chat?   Francie Winslow: (56:42 - 57:19) Sure. Yeah. Well, I have several courses and growth guides on my website.   So, franciewinslow.com and just spaces. If you wanted to have these conversations with your husband or maybe just wanted to grow on your own. And if you're looking for conversations exactly like we're having today, ongoing, I have a community membership group that we meet monthly on zoom to literally have conversations like this that are so life-giving because we're all on a journey and it's fun to be able to talk about places that we've had barriers and how we're growing.   And that's called the circle. So, I have that as well. So, lots of resources and ways to plug in and keep growing.   Laura Dugger: (57:20 - 57:36) Wonderful. We'll add the links in the show notes for today's episode. And Francie, you're already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Francie Winslow: (57:37 - 58:14) Well, it's not that fancy and it's going to sound extremely simple, but it's take a walk without your phone every day. It's part of that awareness and that coming back home to God who is in us with us all the time. And those simple deep breaths, remembering that we have him in us.   And a lot of times it's just that simple reminder of a minute unplugged in God's creation that helps me to kind of come back home to him and recenter to be filled up for all that comes my way. So, I'm a big fan of unplugging. That's so good.   Laura Dugger: (58:14 - 58:42) And it's just always such a joy to get to spend time with you. And God has given you these enormous gifts of teaching and this ability to synthesize knowledge from so many places and then make it beneficial and applicable for all of us as it relates to sexual intimacy in view of what God has for us in marriage. So, thank you, Francie, for sharing all this goodness today and thank you for being my returning guest.   Francie Winslow: (58:42 - 58:43) Absolutely. Thanks for having me.   Laura Dugger: (58:45 - 1:01:59) One more thing before you go.   Have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.   But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.   So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can

Charlotte Mason Inspired Mini-Series: Imparting Morals to Our Children with Liz Cottrill, Special Patreon Release   Proverbs 9:10 (NIV)  "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."   *Transcription Below*   Questions and Topics We Discuss: What are the benefits of reading and reading aloud and how can we prioritize making this a frequent rhythm in our homes? What do the Gospels teach us about God's view of children? As parents, if we focused on nothing else, what is your highest recommendation for cultivating a moral and righteous character in our children?   Liz Cottrill is mother of six and grandmother of fifteen who homeschooled for 35 years. For 17 years, Liz has worked with her daughter, Emily,  in their family-owned Living Books Library serving local homeschool families in northeast Tennessee and southwest Virginia. For the past 25 years, Liz has been discovering and teaching about the beauty and purpose of a Charlotte Mason method of education. This led to the development of A Delectable Education podcast. In addition, she does personal consultations with homeschool families around the world. Her greatest passion outside of family and teaching about Charlotte Mason is developing and teaching women's Bible studies. Liz is a reading maniac and delights in spending time with her family and walking and biking with her husband.   Books Liz Mentioned: The Chronicles of Narnia Heidi Little House on the Prairie Series The Yearling Little Britches Series The Secret Garden Where the Red Fern Grows Little Women The Singing Tree The Little White Horse Books by Beverly Cleary and Carolyn Haywood   A Delectable Education Website   Living Books Library   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:08)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:59) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.   Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at Chick-fil-A.com forward slash East Peoria.   If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.   Today is the final episode in our mini-series, where we've been learning the Charlotte Mason educational philosophy. And today we're going to tie it in with general parenting principles, all of which are rooted in scripture.   My guest is Liz Cottrill, and she has parented babies to adults, and she's also a grandmother. So, we have a lot to learn from her experience. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Liz.   Liz Cottrill: (1:59 - 2:03) Well, thank you so much for having me. I am just honored to be with you today.   Laura Dugger: (2:04 - 2:08) Will you just begin by sharing your testimony with us?   Liz Cottrill: (2:09 - 4:12) Well, it's kind of long, but I'll make it as short as I can. I grew up in an unbelieving family, but we were churchgoers. And when I was 12 years old, I put my trust in Christ.   After listening to a 17-year-old boy at a youth group meeting who presented the gospel so clearly for me that I understood and wanted to receive Christ. And then I met my husband in high school in German class. Actually, I don't remember very much German, but I was interested in him and he with me because we were Christians.   And we just got off on that foot together. And we have been married 46 years, always trying to put Christ first in our family and in our life. I have six children who are all grown now.   Two came to us by adoption later on in our life. And I have four married children with 15 grandchildren. And grand is just a minimal word for what they are.   I have been homeschooling for 37 years. I graduated my last child just this past spring, and it's been a long journey. It was illegal when I first began.   And I struggled to know the right path, you know, when and how and what subjects to teach and all of that. And a friend gave me a copy of Susan Schaefer McCauley's, For the Children's Sake, which I immediately gravitated to and started the narration way of teaching and using nature and art. But it really was another five years before I understood a lot more about Charlotte Mason and tried to implement more of her ideas.   And then when my grown daughter Emily, 15 years ago, started reading me her actual writings, it wasn't really until then that I started to understand her method.   Laura Dugger: (4:13 - 4:23) Well, and that's incredible. You mentioned it was illegal at that time to homeschool. And you've said before that you and your husband had never even heard of homeschooling when you met. Right.   Liz Cottrill: (4:23 - 6:15) So, how did you make that choice? You know, it's funny. I had my first child, and I remember a conversation with friends in the nursery at church when we were out of the service with our little ones.   And some of them were teachers, and they were talking about how it would be so wonderful if we could just keep our children out of public school and teach them Ourselves. And that put a little seed in my mind. And then I heard Dr. Dobson interview someone on homeschooling when she was about maybe two. And a year later, a friend took me to a kind of clandestine meeting of homeschool people with a national educator who was big on the idea. And we just decided that was the way we wanted to go. There were people that were actually being prosecuted for truancy and things like that when I started.   But we just wanted to be above board right from the beginning. So, I called the school board and just said, “I'm not going to send my child to school. I'm going to keep him at home, but I just want you to know he is being educated.”   Sorry. And so, you know, they didn't mind it. But I kind of marveled that I did that.   And I had to kind of beg, borrow and steal materials from friends who were ex-teachers and so on and didn't know really what I was about. I just remembered my own experience and tried to replicate that as best I could. And anyway, it was a process.   And by the time my fourth child was in school, there were absolutely no laws at all on the books about homeschooling in Michigan where we live. So, there had been several stages of them becoming more open to it over the 10 years since I started.   Laura Dugger: (6:16 - 6:44) Wow. And I love how that seed was planted through a conversation. And I've spoken with some mothers who have chosen to homeschool, and I've always been intrigued by this concept of morning time.   They say that they use that time to gather their children and read the Bible together. So, even broader than that, will you vision cast what type of healthy rhythm is available with Charlotte Mason's recommended schedule?   Liz Cottrill: (6:45 - 8:29) Well, she was a proponent of very short lessons, which for children under nine would be a maximum of 20 minutes long. And some of them are even shorter. And so school morning does run along at quite a little cliff because you're constantly changing pace.   But that is something that most six- and seven- and eight-year-olds love. And we do begin with Bible. And if you have children of multiple ages, the schedule broadens out for them.   I am not personally a big fan of the quote unquote morning time because all of her morning is together and separate and then together again. And what happens a lot of times when you have too long of a gathering of all ages is that the older children are then left with all the real hard toil at the end of the morning. And, you know, the little kids usually can only stand, you know, maybe half an hour at the most.   But we always sing a song and then had our Bible lesson, which Charlotte Mason has a wonderful plan for how to study Bible as a school subject so that they get to know the entire story from Genesis through Revelation. And then usually we have some poetry and then we just move into all our subjects, which vary from day to day. I mean, math and reading and things like that happen every day.   You know, some days we have art, some days we have geography, you know, all those things happen at various times through the week and not every single day. So, that helps you to cover a lot of ground in a week. That makes sense.   Laura Dugger: (8:30 - 8:36) That does. And so that may be the focus in the morning. And then what does that open up for the afternoon time?   Liz Cottrill: (8:36 - 9:43) So, afternoons are especially for young children, mostly free for them to play and explore and enjoy nature. There are some recommended activities that could occupy some of the afternoon hours, especially if you live in Michigan like I did. And we're snowed in much of the time in the winter months. ‍   But handicrafts and nature walks and reading and housework and things like that could be part of the afternoons. They're more open ended. They're not time limited the way school lesson mornings are.   So, it ushers in a sense of maybe a more leisurely pace in the afternoon, would you say? Yes. And, you know, you might say this afternoon after we come in from play or nature study, we're going to draw.   But there's no regulation that that has to end after 15 minutes or something. You know, some children get really involved in making up their own play or having a puppet show or just doing whatever they want with their free time. And they don't want to be curtailed, you know?   Laura Dugger: (9:44 - 9:56) Sure. And I'm wondering then for the mother, if she's the one doing the homeschooling, is that the time when you used it for lesson planning or preparing for the next day's work?   Liz Cottrill: (9:57 - 10:20) Or doing the laundry and getting dinner ready and all the other million things you have to do every day. Yeah, I usually encourage moms to take 10 minutes to plan for the next lesson day. And sometimes they get that done even before lunch so that when lunch happens, you know, basically their mind is off school and just on to all the other life that we have.   Laura Dugger: (10:21 - 10:29) Wow. And if this is new to someone and they hear 10 minutes to plan the next day's lessons, how is that possible?   Liz Cottrill: (10:32 - 11:06) Well, mostly because a lot of your lesson is already determined by the amount of time you have. There's only so much you can do in any lesson. A young child would have maybe 9 or 10 lessons in a morning.   But usually there's been some preplanning in the summer or before that school term starts. So, a lot of it, you already know what you're doing. And so, we're just specifically troubleshooting or figuring out what's going to happen the next day.   You know, so we give a right amount of math work or choose the vocabulary for the reading lesson or whatnot.   Laura Dugger: (11:07 - 11:41) Okay, that's helpful. And you say that your own education began when you were born into a family who loved and valued books. And Charlotte Mason is quoted saying, “The most common and the monstrous defect in the education of the day is that children fail to acquire the habit of reading.”   So, Liz, what are some of the benefits of both reading and reading aloud? And how can we prioritize making this a frequent rhythm in our homes?   Liz Cottrill: (11:43 - 15:13) I have to preface what I say by saying that this is a huge problem in our culture today. I don't know if you know that my daughter Emily and I started a library for homeschool families. And I have about 20,000 books in my library that we loan out to 40 to 50 families each year.   They have a membership, so they have access to wonderful books. But it wasn't long into this journey almost 20 years ago that I realized that most moms had not even read Little House on the Prairie. And very common children's books were a mystery to them because our culture has kind of lost the art of reading.   I think it's a pretty known fact that only one in four adults ever reads even one book in a year. And I guess books are critical to our culture. They're definitely integral to the whole education process of our children.   They can learn so much more through a whole book than they can through a few paragraphs in a textbook. And the bottom line is that you can't give your children what you don't love yourself. So, the best way to ensure that you make your child become a reader is to be a reader yourself.   So, children, I always say, have to be surrounded by books. There are even education studies out worldwide in all socioeconomic brackets that children who grew up in a home of 500 books or more automatically become readers as adults. I just think that's fascinating.   So, they need to be surrounded with books, but they need to see you reading. And we need to make time to read to them from the very youngest ages. They should be well into early chapter books by the time they ever start school.   And so, reading as a family is just a wonderful, enjoyable activity. I think that when I say they need to see you reading too, I just want to add that that doesn't mean on your phone. Because for all they know, you're looking at YouTube or Facebook or something like that.   I had a friend who said that she really woke up to this one day when her kids were running through the room and she was reading an actual book and her son stopped and said, what are you doing? It just shocked her because she was a reader, but she didn't often read from an actual book. I do think reading as a family builds a wonderful culture in your home.   It is one of the wonderful ways of keeping a family together. You have common jokes and insights and just conversations because of the things you've been reading together. And Charlotte Mason said that our books are our greatest teachers.   And I think that's because they fertilize a child's imagination. They give them so many ideas about the world that they just can't receive from TV or just our normal life. Reading really is the most countercultural thing that you can do.   It slows down our life, the pace that we all live at. It gives us time to spend together to relax. It brings a sense of peace in the home.   Just a lot of enjoyment to life. I can't imagine living without books.   Laura Dugger: (15:14 - 15:30) And Liz, I just get so excited to hear you describe all of this and some of the benefits and the culture that's added. Are there any other books you talked about? Little House on the Prairie.   Are there some other chapter books that you have especially fond memories of sharing with your family?   Liz Cottrill: (15:32 - 16:24) Well, it's no secret to the world, if anybody has ever heard me talk or read anything I've written, that Heidi by Johanna Sperry is probably my all-time favorite. I had my six-year-old daughter, my third daughter. I read it to all my kids.   I read all the books through to her over several weeks or whatnot. And at the end, she said, read it again as if it was a little picture book. And so, I just started it over again and we read it again. ‍ ‍   And then I promised her I'd read it to her every year while she was growing up. So, it's a precious book. I love Ralph Moody's Little Britches series for children and all the classic things, Anne of Green Gables and The Yearling.   And oh, my goodness, how many would you like me to say?   Laura Dugger: (16:25 - 16:29) Feel free to share a few more and I will put links to these in the show notes.   Liz Cottrill: (16:30 - 17:39) Well, the Narnia series and The Secret Garden, Where the Red Fern Grows, Little Women, The Singing Tree by Kate. It's pronounced Charity, S-E-R-E-D-Y. I could go on and on.   The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Gouge. Just dozens. And the fact is that great books are still being written today, but they're like a needle in a haystack.   And so, if you go back to books published before 1970, you are going to find just amazing books that still speak to children. Because adventures are always adventures to a child. They don't care if they were driving horse and buggy or old cars.   And books that children loved back in the last century, in the 20th century, it was the golden age of children's literature, they say. There were as many books published in the 1930 to 35 era as were in the previous 500 years for children. And it just grew from there.   Laura Dugger: (17:39 - 17:47) And there are a few reasons for that before 1970. Didn't that have to do with the library and with publishing houses?   Liz Cottrill: (17:48 - 18:40) Yes, the government passed an educational bill, 1964, I believe, President Johnson, that funded school libraries. So, all of a sudden, all of these small county schools and libraries that had very limited resources and had to be very picky and choosy about what books they put into their library had a flood of income. That produced a flood in the publishing houses of producing books of all kinds.   So, there is a lot of junk out there and unhelpful stuff. But the classics that I grew up on back in the 60s, Beverly Cleary and Carolyn Haywood and all the series they wrote for children are just timeless. My grandchildren still enjoy them, even though they like the latest and greatest, too.   Laura Dugger: (18:41 - 24:25) Sure, but that's helpful to have that context to realize that previously it used to be only the best of the best were able to be published. And that changed. And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Did you know you can go to college tuition-free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right. Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University. Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia.   This online, self-paced program includes 13 associate's degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees, and two master's programs, including an MBA. 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We are all about sharing around here, sharing resources, sharing joy, and sharing the good news about Jesus Christ. ‍   We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing The Savvy Sauce podcast episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review. You can also share any of our social media posts on Instagram or Facebook. We are grateful for all of it, and we just love partnering together with you.   Now, back to the show.   In addition to reading, handicrafts are another piece of the Charlotte Mason education. So, can you explain what is meant by that term handicrafts?   Liz Cottrill: (24:26 - 25:45) Well, it's a huge arena of things, but it's basically learning to work with your hands, doing purposeful tasks, making things that will make life beautiful. So, it's aesthetic as well as useful. So, I think we all could see that learning to knit is great fine motor training for a child, but being able to make a handmade sweater for someone is serviceable and lovely.   But all kinds of things, woodworking, embroidery and sewing, paper folding and origami, clay modeling, weaving, all of these things, basically a child can start at the rudimentary stage and develop over the years. And there was a huge emphasis with Charlotte Mason that these crafts would then give children opportunity to help and serve others. So, if you know how to work well with your hands, you'll be able to help someone change a tire, or you will be able to make cookies or gifts for people who are sick or shut in or lonely.   Just you'll be a useful person. And she was very interested in the whole person, not just training the mind.   Laura Dugger: (25:46 - 26:02) And I would love to know, I'm sure there's a lot of brain science behind this, even like we know that movement and physical activity, that there is a mind-body connection and how that even unlocks emotions. So, I wonder what is freed up when we work with our hands?   Liz Cottrill: (26:03 - 27:04) One of the things for little children in school, because this was part of the morning lessons, the training process the first few years, as they get older, they work more in that free afternoon time we were talking about. But it gives them a rest from all the effort of paying attention and thinking through things in school. And then there are just the benefits that we all benefit from serving other people.   We all benefit when we are doing something productive and not just rambling around the house, bored and looking out the windows and causing mischief too. So, I think it benefits the mother in many ways, because the children are trained up to learn how to do chores and housework. So, the whole family can be working together.   They can learn how to garden together. That can be a handicraft, for example, that brings in food. And then they can learn to can as they get older.   And, you know, the sky is the limit.   Laura Dugger: (27:06 - 27:32) That's really helpful to hear. And regardless of schooling choice, there is another Charlotte Mason principle that we all may relate to in parenting in general. And she explains the principles of authority on the one hand and obedience on the other are natural, necessary and fundamental.   So, what can this look like in our parenting?   Liz Cottrill: (27:33 - 29:31) You know, she also said that we as parents are deputed as the authority of our children by God. And I think when we realize that this is a God given office that we hold and by authority, I know a lot of people recoil a bit in our day and age, but she meant that we were made by God to lead and guide and protect the children under our care. And children naturally look to us for those things, don't they?   So, when that relationship is understood and a parent is comfortable with the fact that they are the authority in their child's life, the children stay in that role most naturally, too. They respond with trust and obedience. So, loving leadership, you know, is not, as some people think when we say authority over your child, it is not like being overbearing and dictatorial and arbitrary or inconsistent.   And, you know, both ends of that spectrum are a disrespect of the child as made in the image of God. And as someone who God has entrusted to you to bring up, to know him. So, much of what is considered love in our era is just pure child centeredness or indulgence of the child.   We think that's love and love and discipline go hand in hand. And by discipline, I don't mean corporal punishment at all. I think there are many ways to guide a child that help them feel that security, that someone knows the boundaries, that I'm safe within this space.   I have a lot of freedom as long as I obey within these limits. I think we're all like that, right.   Laura Dugger: (29:32 - 29:45) Absolutely. And you parented six children. So, what insight do you have for helping us teach our children to distinguish between I want and I will?   Liz Cottrill: (29:46 - 32:01) And this was a very helpful thing when I started reading Charlotte Mason, to have her distinguish some of these things, because, you know, as parents, we can get into power struggles with our children because we tell them or ask them or prefer them to do a certain thing. And they just don't want to. So, she taught that the will is our decision maker.   It's what causes us to choose things. It's our independence. I can say yes to this or no to this.   Right. But this is sometimes a struggle, even for us adults. I mean, the candy bar is laying there.   You know, you shouldn't eat it, but you want to. So, we all have big and little struggles with what we want versus what we know we ought to do. And she said children should have a sense of ought that they should know there is a right and a wrong.   So, she talked about how we can teach our children what we should do is what helps the other person or gives them their due rights. But the will can get kind of weary of making a lot of decisions, too. And we all talk in our day and age about decision fatigue.   Right. And so, she taught parents to teach a practice with their children how to rest the will when it is in that struggle or turmoil of having to decide whether I will clean my room because mother has asked me. But I do not want to do this nasty job.   So, she said to teach them how to turn their thoughts momentarily to some other thing. Think about something pleasant and desirable that you love just for a moment and then return to the decision at hand, and you will discover that automatically your will is stronger and able to do what it ought to do instead of just what you want to do. And it's really the whole call of Christ on all of our lives.   You know, he said, follow me, lay down your life, don't serve yourself, but serve others. And those are hard things. But when we think of him and the joy of serving him, they become easier to us.   And so, we're beginning to train our children to that habit, too.   Laura Dugger: (32:02 - 32:32) And like you said, yes, that's beneficial to all of us. Charlotte Mason is also quoted saying, the question is not how much does the youth know when he has finished his education, but how much does he care? So, Liz, from your experience home educating many children, how can each of us bring up our own children so that they do care and they do desire to be lifelong learners?   Liz Cottrill: (32:33 - 35:10) I think first is to recognize that every child has an innate desire to learn. A baby is curious from day one, right? We just see them interested in everything.   They're interested in things we have long since forgotten about. They notice everything. And in Charlotte Mason's method of educating, the entire curriculum was called a feast because there were so many different kinds of things.   You know, it's like a big smorgasbord for learning. And I think that in itself builds a lot of care and interest. You know, I think it's also the way God gave us his word and his world and said, taste and see that the Lord is good.   So, when we let our children learn a little bit of this and a little bit of that, they are tasting all kinds of things and discovering new delights all the time and things they would never have noticed or been interested in otherwise. I think it is not pushing our children ever in school. We have very false ideas sometimes about the level a child should be at.   We think more is better all the time. And we're always either pushing or pulling them, dragging them through where they're not really quite ready. I think it's also not leaning on rewards or penalties when it comes to school subjects, especially.   They're maybe not the best idea of parenting in any arena, but knowledge, Charlotte Mason said, is delectable. All kinds of knowledge. And I think that this carries over outside of school to help a childcare is to talk about interesting things with them all the time.   I think in general; parents don't talk to their children a whole lot anymore. We don't have just conversations on other topics that are not currently the hot thing on social media or something.   Interesting your children in a lot of different things is like amending your garden soil in the spring, you know, adding lots of different things so that you ensure a good crop. I think that when you give your children a little of this and that, you are automatically appealing to their instinctive curiosity. And you're giving them the idea that there are dozens and hundreds of things to know and they pursue them then.   Laura Dugger: (35:11 - 35:43) Well, learning is such a value in part because we hope to grow wise and provide a home environment where our children can grow wise as well. And it makes me think of Proverbs 9 10 that says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. So, how can we experience the Holy Spirit as our supreme educator and encourage our children in the same way?   Liz Cottrill: (35:44 - 37:01) Our children have a natural thirst for knowledge and truth. It's in the heart of every person who's made in God's image. And the spirit, of course, is the one who leads us into all truth.   There is no truth that is not God's truth. So, you stand as a teacher in Charlotte Mason's way of teaching. You are outside in a way you recognize that your child is the learner, and you are just presenting the lessons and the feast.   And it is amazing to see how the spirit does work in our children. One morning, this was brought home to me just personally by the Lord when I was reading the beginning of the book of Mark to my boys during our Bible lesson. And when I got to the phrase where John the Baptist says, “prepare the way of the Lord.” It was like the Holy Spirit tapped on my shoulder and said, “that is what you will be doing all morning.”   Because we don't know what God is going to use in their life. And the Holy Spirit does. So, I think it's a lot of trust that he is active and breathing life into our school lessons.   Laura Dugger: (37:02 - 37:03) I love that.   Liz Cottrill: (37:03 - 37:52) Prepare the way for the Lord. Yes. And, you know, we just are constantly amazed at what our children's insights into the scripture are.   But they have those insights when they're doing an art lesson and looking at a beautiful painting. They'll say, oh, this reminds me of or they receive instruction morally from their stories that they're reading. And even in geography and natural sciences, you know, they're seeing all the things God's made and it increases their wonder.   And, you know, the Holy Spirit speaks to them in all kinds of areas. So, I think allowing them to explore and engage, which, you know, traditional workbooks and textbooks do not allow for as much.   Laura Dugger: (37:53 - 38:37) Well, and even as you're speaking, it makes me think about Philippians 2:13, because you're talking about the part that is our part to do. But it also says, for God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him. So, that is helpful to realize we can help prepare the way for the Lord.   But he's the one who's going to give us and our children the desire to obey and learn these things. Well, and kind of on that topic, what control do you believe that we as parents have to influence the divine life of our child?   Liz Cottrill: (38:39 - 40:38) Well, I think God, in all his wisdom, made parents to be the primary influence in our child's life. You know, Deuteronomy talks about to teach these things to your children while you walk and while you sit and while you lie down and all those things. I'm not quoting it exactly, of course, here.   But so, it's a way of life. We have our mind on God, and he is the center of our life. Our children are automatically going to assume that that is a normal way of being.   But, you know, to a baby, we actually are God to them. We control everything for their life. And so, they begin learning and they're going to have their view of the world and of God shaped by our attitude toward our children, by our behavior toward them, the way we care for them.   If God is our orientation, he's going to be there when we're having fun or even in our discipline moments. God is going to be our reference point as a family. So, they grow up in this culture where God is first, and we look to him and everything.   And I don't mean this means we have to talk to our children about God all the time, but I think it's a pattern of life. I also think that as parents, we teach our children much about God and how to live with him and others in the world. When we are humble Ourselves, when we go to our children, when we have offended them and ask their forgiveness, when we have behavior issues with them and we ask God for wisdom with our child.   We just bring prayer or his wisdom into situations naturally. And I think they just automatically assume or realize our reverence for God by our own demeanor, our own attitude toward God every day Ourselves.   Laura Dugger: (40:39 - 40:45) Well, and furthermore, what do you see the gospels teaching us about God's view of children?   Liz Cottrill: (40:48 - 45:12) I'll tell you, this was my biggest turning point in accepting Charlotte Mason's method of teaching, because I thought if this was what she said was at the heart of her educational method, I could trust her to learn about the things I didn't understand about her method yet. I think it begins with realizing what Jesus said that you cannot enter the kingdom of God unless you do so as a little child. And why is that?   Because children are naturally humble. They're naturally weak. They're naturally poor in spirit.   And he said, blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. So, it helps us to remember when we're working with children that this is God's way, because our children can cause some friction in our life, right? They can be obstinate and oppositional and irritating and slow and whining and frustrating.   It's natural for us to push back on those things. But when we realize their character is being formed, that we're accountable to God for these things, then her three rules from the gospels that we should not offend children, which means we don't sin against them. We don't hurt their body or their feelings.   We treat them as we would treat our own friends. We would never say things to our friends that we all feel quite free to say to our children sometimes. And we need the humility, like I've said before, to go to them and ask their forgiveness and to pray with them and to reconcile with our child and not just assume, oh, well, they'll understand when they're older or just, I guess it didn't hurt them that much.   We should never assume those things. Jesus said, do not despise the children. So, when we don't think that they're worthy of the best books, that they are worthy of learning important ideas straight from the truth of books, and we think they have to have dumbed down materials that are just shaped for their, what we consider thimble full of ability.   I think when we're impatient with our children in school lessons and, you know, as a homeschool mom, I did it for so long and I know how easy it is, but we have to ask God for the patience and kindness of Jesus. And we can just very easily dismiss our children that their thoughts are silly. We can belittle them for ideas they have.   We can use our words to make them feel small. And I think Jesus was saying, don't despise them. And then the third thing he said was not to hinder them.   And again, I think by holding them back, by not allowing them to progress when they're ready to learn more, by assuming that they're too young for this or that, sometimes I think we're babying them too much and holding them back. That's a hindrance. I think that especially middle school boys, we don't like them to be growing up, and we don't allow them to exert some of the independence that's just natural with them getting to that age.   So, we just need to remove things in our lives that are going to make school a struggle for them, which doesn't mean we don't require them to learn, but we need to allow them to make mistakes. I mean, how are they going to learn to solve math problems if we're always saying, no, you're doing it the wrong way, and take it out of their hands and show them the way we do it. It's better for them to get the understanding by trying several times.   We let them do this when they're learning to walk and talk. When they start talking, they say things, and only we as mothers know what they're asking for because it isn't clear yet. Well, that is true of every single area of their life.   So, not hindering them means that we work with them and allow them to grow up into the things that they're getting understanding about. And I think sometimes in school lessons, not hindering them is just if they have trouble keeping their hands busy doing what they're supposed to be doing, then let's remove everything in their reach that is going to tempt them to fool around and not pay attention.   Laura Dugger: (45:13 - 45:26) Well, as parents, if we focused on nothing else, what is your highest recommendation for cultivating a moral and righteous character in our children?   Liz Cottrill: (45:28 - 46:32) Well, obviously reading the Bible to your children is a wonderful moral instructor. But I think that novels and poetry and tales, fairy tales, fables, all those things are the children's best teacher. Charlotte Mason said, knowledge touched with emotion is what our minds absorb.   And so, when you're reading a book and you become excited or tense or nervous, I mean, you can watch heart monitors and EEGs, how the mind changes when we're reading different parts of things. And as a parent, a book is the third party that the child will accept much more easily than if we just try to instruct them. I think books engage their imagination and kind of give them a chance to practice life in a safe way.   So, they may have thought that doing a particular thing is a smart idea. But when they encounter a heroine in a book who does it and it doesn't turn out well for her, then they learned a lesson safely.   Laura Dugger: (46:33 - 46:55) I love that thinking about the book as a third party and maybe even a mentor, someone to partner with us to help cultivate that character. And Liz, you have so much to offer, even with your living books, library and your podcast and so many things. If we want to learn more from you after this conversation, where would you like to direct us online?   Liz Cottrill: (46:56 - 47:45) Well, on our website, A Delightful Education dot com, we do have some teacher training videos, we call them, but anybody would be welcome to watch those. And I have done a whole hour long talk about moral instruction through all kinds of literature for children that would, I'm sure, be of interest to any parent, regardless of what educational method they follow. I've made videos on how to teach a child to read and how to keep the wrong books out of their hands and things like that.   So, that would be one specific, but https://www.livingbookslibrary.com. We haven't done a lot with that website, but it's still there. And there are lots of blogs and archives that I've written about children and books and discipline and things like that.   Laura Dugger: (47:45 - 48:03) Wonderful. We will link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Liz, you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Liz Cottrill: (48:05 - 48:57) You know, I think as a Christian parent, the best thing you can do for your child is to spend time alone with God yourself every day, even if it's three minutes. We need to learn to listen to him and his word, and we need to bring our concerns to him and orient Ourselves to him because the job we have before us is life and death, really. And if I was to add to that, I would say, learn to really listen to your child.   They're telling you all kinds of things, and we need to hear what's really in their heart and deal with their heart issues. And that's probably why I say spending time with God, not only for our own personal growth and maturity, but it is our lifeline as a parent to be able to have wisdom for our children.   Laura Dugger: (48:58 - 49:22) Well, and Liz, you have modeled that so well, and you're just a wealth of knowledge. And it's been encouraging just to hear your courageous decisions, even going back to choosing to homeschool at a time when it was not even legal, but trusting in your Lord. And you've modeled that for all of us today.   So, thank you for all that you've shared. And thank you for being my guest.   Liz Cottrill: (49:23 - 50:22) Well, I am so appreciative of your wonderful questions and thought-provoking things that you've asked. And can I just add one other thing? Oh, please do.   So, I don't know if your listeners are aware of the fact that I am totally blind and have been since birth. And so, I know how scary it is to venture out into homeschooling. I know what a struggle it is to find books to read because there weren't a lot available to me as a blind mother, either for school or just for fun.   So, I just think that one of the reasons God planned for me to have this handicap through my life is just to encourage moms that we really do need God's sight and wisdom. And no difficulty you have before you is too great for Him to help you to navigate the waters of raising children.   Laura Dugger: (50:22 - 54:17) That is beautifully said. And I just appreciate you sharing that. Thank you for opening up to us and what an incredible perspective you have. So, thank you, Liz.   One more thing before you go.   Have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.   But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.   So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much.   He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news.   Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what he has done for us.   Romans 10:9 says, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So, would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.   I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity.   In Jesus name we pray. Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.   You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned.   So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone. Say it out loud.   Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.   Luke 15:10 says, in the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with.   You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.‍

What Books are Healthiest for Your Tween or Teen an Interview with Betsy Farquhar and Hayley Morell (Episode 293)   *Disclaimer: Some of this content is not intended for young audiences. Please use discretion.   Proverbs 4:7 NIV “The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.”   *Transcription Below*   Betsy Farquhar holds Masters degrees in Children's Literature and Information and Library Science. She taught middle and high school English, homeschooled her three children, and has served on many book award committees.   Hayley Morell loves reading, writing, trying new recipes, knitting, or chatting with her parrot. Hayley loves traveling and lived abroad in Europe and Asia. She and her husband and infant live in Wisconsin in an old house overflowing with books and are active in their local community.   Their Website, Book, and Social Media Handles: Instagram @redeemed_reader and Facebook: @redeemedreader   Thank you to our sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are some benefits of reading and why is it worthwhile to devote our time to curating a healthy diet of books? Can you elaborate on why the Young Adult or YA category is the most controversial? What is on your radar for genres or books that will require even more discernment in the future?   Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: 21. Promoting a Family Culture of Reading with Megan Kaeb 22. Inspiring Your Children to Become Readers, Part Two with Megan Kaeb 253. Low Tech Parenting with Erin Loechner 273. Wise Living: Why to Get Outside, and Travel, and Read Aloud with Amber O'Neal Johnston   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*‍   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:46) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.   Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at lemangm.com.   My guests for today are Betsy Farquhar and Haley Morrill, two of the four authors of this book, The Redeemed Reader, which is also the name of the website that they run together where they have thousands of book reviews for children and tweens and teens.   We all know that books are so powerful, so it's vitally important that we're discerning both for what we're intaking and the filters that we use to allow our children to engage with books in our home. We're going to sprinkle book recommendations throughout this episode, and you're also going to learn some surprising things, such as more details about the YA or young adult category. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Betsy and Haley.   Betsy Farquhar: (1:48 - 1:49) Thanks. It's good to be here.   Laura Dugger: (1:50 - 1:57) I would love to just start out hearing the way that the two of you found your way into the work that you get to do today.   Betsy Farquhar: (1:58 - 2:42) Mine started way back in the 1900s when I was in college. I did my senior thesis on children's literature, George MacDonald, and that led to a children's literature class my last semester, which led me to grad school with one of my now co-workers, but at the time fellow students and friends, and we got our master's in children's literature. And then rabbit trail, lots of detours, children, marriage. She and I started a blog back when those were cool and hip, and it was reviewing children's books and that was just for fun. And then we connected with Janie and Emily from Redeemed Reader. Through that blog venue, we were commenting on each other's blogs, and they brought us on board. And so here we are 15 years later.   Hayley Morell: (2:43 - 3:38) And for me, I was a high schooler. I was homeschooled. I loved reading.   So, I started my own blog back in the teenage years and I was always looking for book recommendations and came upon Redeemed Reader in the early days. I turned out they were looking for an intern. I started interning and at the end of my internship, Emily Witten, who was our founder, asked if I'd like to stay on.   And that was 14 or 15 years ago now. So, I was younger. And so, I had a period at college.   I studied at Boyce College. I worked in children's ministry and worked as a private tutor. So, a lot of interactions with children.   I was known as the babysitter with the book bag for a number of years. And now I've got my own little, and so I'm in the land of board books and happily working at Redeemed Reader.   Laura Dugger: (3:39 - 3:49) I love hearing that. And if people are watching this through video, can you both just say your name, so we know who's Betsy and who's Haley? I'm Haley.   Betsy Farquhar: (3:50 - 3:51) I'm Betsy.   Laura Dugger: (3:52 - 4:07) Okay, wonderful. Thank you for that. And at Redeemed Reader, I'm assuming you have so many book recommendations to try and read and review.   So, how do you even determine which books you are going to review?   Hayley Morell: (4:08 - 7:49) So, right now we are wrapping up one of the things we love doing, which is providing award coverage. In January is when the American Library Association announces their awards, and they like to recognize the best middle grade with the Newberry, the best picture books with the Caldecott, and then a number of other awards. We know that those books are going to be going into lots of libraries and schools.   And so, we like to provide coverage of that and review those books that we know parents are going to be seeing on shelves and wondering, is this a good book? Should we be reading this? What do we want to check out?   We also like to watch what is popular. What is causing discussion? So, several years ago, that was The Hunger Games.   And there was a lot of questions about dystopia. Should we be reading this? Is this helpful?   Do I want my teen reading The Hunger Games? More recently, some popular middle grade series like Keeper of the Lost Cities have had a lot of parents asking, what is this series? Is there anything I should know about?   And so, we try to have a balanced review. We review books that you're going to find at the library. We also like to review books that maybe you wouldn't know about.   So, a smaller Christian imprint, for example, we like to review that type of book to encourage readers to read widely, to read Christian authors, to read secular authors. We like books. And so, we each bring our own specialty to the team and experience.   Janie, who's our senior editor, is a children's author. She loves history. And so, as the community relations manager, I tend to handle review requests.   So, when somebody asks us, can you review this book? It's popular. Or I'm an author.   I wrote a book. Can you review it? I'll look at the book.   I'll look at how hard is it to get? We do try to review books that are easy to find, that you might find in your local library. But then I'll look at our team.   So, for Janie, if it is going to be a nonfiction history, let's say for a 10 to 12-year-old, I know that's going to be up her alley. Meanwhile, Betsy loves poetry. She loves nature, nonfiction.   Betsy is a very, I'd say you're one of our Renaissance people. And so, I know Betsy is going to be inclined towards maybe a novel and verse. And she also likes dealing with high school books.   You've got that teacher education background, where if it is an epic poem, Betsy is going to be our reviewer. Megan is our amazing picture book author. She's super creative, loves picture books.   Megan is who I turn to when I find a picture book. Meanwhile, I used to handle as I was the team member of the team and then turned into my 20s. So, I gravitated toward YA, and I still love a good YA fantasy.   But I am now in board book land and picture books. So, I have been expanding my reach. I do serve on our middle grade fiction, so I can help out with middle grades.   But each of us will flex in, flex out. Megan has a large family of boys. And so, if it's a boy book, she is a great person.   We love to send those to her to see if her boys like them. And that's, I could keep going because we love books, but that's a big snapshot.   Laura Dugger: (7:50 - 8:09) That's so helpful because you cover such a wide variety of books throughout your team. And as curators of book reviews, what questions are you most commonly receiving, both from young people and maybe their parents as well?   Hayley Morell: (8:12 - 9:22) I think we often get questions like, is this book clean? Is this book safe? And we like to kind of change that question.   And we like to say, why is the content in this book? Because that can be different, you know, depending on something that is in a picture book, which wouldn't be appropriate for an age, could be very appropriate for a YA book and a great discussion starter. So, it definitely depends on the content and what audience and what age of the audience we're dealing with.   So, we try to, as people ask us, well, is this safe or is this clean? Should I read this? We want to build discernment and encourage parents to interact, parents and educators to interact with our reviews.   And they know their reader. They know how their reader is going to receive a book. And what questions might come up.   And so, we like to help interact with that conversation. And then there's another kind of question we often get, which I'm going to let Betsy answer.   Betsy Farquhar: (9:23 - 10:10) The other question is, my kid likes blank kind of book or is blank kind of reader. What do I get for him or her? And so that, of course, can vary widely.   But people love to know what book is right for my family or my classroom or my child. And so, we try to write our reviews with that question in mind, not to make a blanket statement, you should all read this book, or nobody should read this book, but to give parents and educators enough information to make that decision for themselves. And then we started doing these reels on Instagram, where we're pretending we're answering a customer service phone call with questions we've been asked, right?   My son only likes video games, or my daughter doesn't want fantasy, but she reads these kinds of books. And so, we try to help people think that through.   Laura Dugger: (10:10 - 10:14) So, that's really how we continue.   Hayley Morell: (10:15 - 11:09) Sorry. And one more question that we often get because we are book reviewers is, will you review my book? And so, at that point, we do have a process.   We encourage people to submit a request. And it could be maybe a book they're curious about and would just like a review from us, or they're an author or a publisher. And so, in that case, we direct them to our review submission form.   And like I said before, we are definitely looking for books that are easy to find. That will encourage us to review a book, because while we love books that are like smaller imprints, et cetera, and we do try to provide coverage for that, we also are aware that a lot of our audience only has their library or their school library. And so, we are trying to do books that are easy to find and accessible for our readers.   Laura Dugger: (11:10 - 11:40) Okay, that's really helpful to hear what people are writing in and asking you about. And so, hearing the sweet spot from each team member, and then Betsy, how you mentioned people love to know what's right for my family. So, no, this won't fit every situation. But can you give examples of maybe books that the four of you find yourselves recommending quite a bit because they are ones that fit a wide range of people?   Betsy Farquhar: (11:41 - 13:39) Of course, we put a ton of recommendations in our book that came out in the fall. And those are sort of our most common recommendations. We have a place on our website called Starred Reviews.   And those are the best of the best in our mind of their genre. So, if you're looking for graphic novels, and you see a star on a graphic novel, it's because we think this is an amazing graphic novel. So, that's just a helpful framework, because of course, people are all over the map, right?   We're in the midst of whittling down our Book of the Year for this year. And we also have our Reader's Choice Book of the Year. And those books are ones we tend to recommend all the time.   So, I'm going to give you just some samples of what are on our Reader's Choice list, because that is a public list. And I can't reveal the 2025 releases we're considering for the other one. But for our Book of the Year for the Reader's Choice this year, we have The Found Boys by S. D. Smith.   We've got, I've got them all right here, Olivetti by Allie Millington. There's The Hiding Place: A Graphic Novel and the Watership Down: The Graphic Novel that are both really fun. People have really enjoyed them.   We've got the first book in The Dream Keeper Saga by Kathryn L. Butler. That's a Christian fantasy series. We've got Enemies in the Orchard, which is the novel in verse about World War II.   One Big Open Sky by Lesa Cline-Ransome, which is another novel in verse about some Black pioneers going west on a wagon train. And that might be, oh, The Puppets of Spelhorst by Kate DiCamillo. Kate DiCamillo is a super prolific author, and we do recommend her books often.   Her book, Ferris, was our Book of the Year last year. So, there's just a quick sampling of some middle grades' books. And middle grades, for people who don't know, that's the broad fourth through eighth grade age range.   You think of like ages 8 to 12. And they tend to be the broadest in audience. You can usually read those aloud to a younger audience, or even teenagers might find them enjoyable.   So, that's a good start.   Hayley Morell: (13:40 - 14:29) I do think one of the beauties of our team is that we've worked together for a long time. And we trust our team. And so, I will happily recommend a book that I haven't seen, but I know Betsy loved and reviewed.   And it's so fun reading the same books. So, like right now, since we're on award committees, we are seeing a lot of the same books and getting to talk about them. But I think it's one of our strengths that we each bring something to the table.   And I would say if someone really likes history, I'm going to look at what Janie has loved recently, because I know she is looking for those good new history books. And its so fun recommending books and getting to play to our strengths.   Laura Dugger: (14:31 - 16:16) And that comes out in book recommendations. When you're passionate about what you're reading, it's naturally contagious, I think. And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. 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Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.   Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them on 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.   I'm curious, over the years, what character qualities have you noticed in people who are now adults, but they originally fell in love with reading in childhood?   Betsy Farquhar: (16:17 - 17:39) So, that's a pretty broad question. I would think, I'm just going to paint this with broad strokes. People who read typically are people who think, and especially in a day and age where we're bombarded with screens and soundbites all the time, if somebody can actually read an analog book from start to finish, then typically they're going to be able to think about ideas in a different way than people who are just existing on soundbites.   So, the ability to think is pretty critical. There's been a lot of studies that show that people who read also have better empathy. It's just a way we can sort of step into somebody else's shoes, especially if we're reading a story about somebody who perhaps lived in a different time period, or they're from a different ethnic background, or even if there's just a different socioeconomic level, it helps us understand the people on the other side a little bit better.   So, that kind of, this twin characteristics of empathy and thoughtfulness, I think are pretty common. We all go through seasons where we don't read as much, whether we're stressed or perhaps, my kids are in college and they were avid readers in high school, and they're not doing a lot of reading for fun right now, but they know how to read and they enjoy it. So, they'll probably come back to that in the future.   So, I think that's a helpful thing to remember, just because your eight-year-old loves reading, when he or she is 18, they may not be reading as much, and that's okay. They'll probably come back to it.   Hayley Morell: (17:40 - 17:53) And I've definitely seen that with younger siblings too, burning out and then all of a sudden back, asking for book recommendations. And it's fun to know that reading habits stick around.   Laura Dugger: (17:55 - 18:38) That's well said. And yet, even if they lie dormant for a while, they may be reawakened in adulthood. But I think I find it's less common for someone to fall in love with reading for their first time as an adult.   So, I think it's very beneficial as parents to cultivate or instill this love of reading in our children. And you two are the experts. So, I'd love to hear your take on this.   What are some of the benefits of reading? And why is it worthwhile to devote our time to curating a healthy diet of books, both for ourselves, but especially for our children?   Hayley Morell: (18:39 - 20:06) Betsy, I think you might've said this once, but I think it came up as we were talking about writing our book. As I have a small child who's just starting to notice pages and we're reading board books and he's trying to reach for it. I remember someone once said that reading to a very young child, they're not registering the story yet.   They might be registering the pictures. But the time that we're taking reading, when I read to him or when my husband gets home from work and they read one board book together, he's not really looking at the book as much as he's looking at our face and hearing our voice. And books are becoming something that we do together and that we do as a family.   And it's a way that we're building relationships. And I think that's a great encouragement to me to keep reading. And I have nieces and nephews who loved books.   And then that's something that we enjoy the story together and we'll laugh over silly stories and we'll read. But I think that it's something that as we want to like curate our collections but also think about how are we encouraging children to love reading. It's if they see us reading too and see us enjoying books and still picking up a book ourselves.   I'm not sure, Betsy, if you have anything that you would add to that.   Betsy Farquhar: (20:07 - 20:41) Well, I just think the better we read anything, the better equipped we are to read the story in the Bible because God revealed himself to us in a written book. And so, we're sort of flexing those muscles when we read. And the more we can engage with what we read, even if it's a picture book with a five-year-old, we're beginning that practice of developing discernment.   And that's part of discipling our children. So, I do think it's all part of the same picture. It's not going to look the same for every family but just working on developing those muscles of discernment and reading intelligently, that's going to go a long way.   Laura Dugger: (20:43 - 22:07) I love how you bring in the Bible that is so important. And I found myself even just this week at bedtime praying over our daughters that they would have a love for the written word because that is what God has gifted to us. And I love how the word became flesh and dwelt among us, but he is the original storyteller and has instilled that in each of us.   And I think just a very practical way at any age to help our children cultivate this love is by reading aloud. And we recently were on a family vacation and had a rental vehicle and we had a long drive-in front of us and listened to the radio for a while. But we also like this tradition of reading one book aloud on a vacation.   So, we remember our time in Florida from one year was a place to hang the moon and it was a different book this year, but I get car sick while we're driving. So, I couldn't read it aloud. So, our oldest daughter read it aloud for all of us.   And I realized how much attention and focus is required and imagination to paint these pictures of the characters in your mind. And I just thought, wow, there's so much learning that's going on even as the one listening to the book, not reading the actual words.   Betsy Farquhar: (22:09 - 22:15) And a place to hang the moon was our reader's choice favorite last year. So, lots of our readers have read that one.   Laura Dugger: (22:16 - 22:36) It's such a good one. And as wonderful as books are, they're also powerful and influential. So, as you've reiterated, discernment is required.   And I'd love for you to elaborate on why the young adult, or the YA category can be the most controversial.   Hayley Morell: (22:38 - 25:12) Young adult protagonists are often upper teenage years. And so, we like to say, as we mentioned in our book, no topic is out of bounds. And this means that there can be a lot going on and a lot of messiness.   We like to use that word as we're talking about that. And sometimes the messiness can be thought provoking. Sometimes it can be provocative.   And we have noticed often YA deals with questions of identity. Who am I? How do I relate to the world?   And that can look like lots of different things. It can include sexual identity, which can lead to a lot of conversations. But something that we like to lean into as we look at the YA genre is that in a world where everything is constantly shifting, as you have a teen and they're encountering conversations at school, conversations with peers, or using social media, having an ever-changing feed that I can look at my Instagram feed and it's going to look nothing like a teenager's Instagram feed.   Even if you're looking at the same account, the way that reels are coming, they're getting bombarded with messages. The messiest of books is static. And you both can look at that and read the cover, read what's going on, and talk about it.   And you both have the same place to have a conversation. And so, we like to lean into that when we're looking at YA books and realize they are powerful, but they're powerful conversation starters. And books like, Betsy recently read a book, and it's called Bright Red Fruit.   And it's a cautionary tale about a teenage girl who has a relationship with an older man that's predator. And he is taking advantage, trying to separate her that is an excellent conversation starter. It's not an easy book to read.   You're reading it, getting worried for this girl, but it's a great way to say, let's read this book and let's talk about what a healthy relationship looks like, because this is not healthy. So, we love YA books that can provoke conversations. And sometimes it might be you both looking at a book and going, you know, this doesn't seem helpful.   We don't need to finish this book. It's okay to stop reading a book and return it to the library.   Laura Dugger: (25:12 - 26:11) I completely agree. And even with that YA section, one of our daughters was just saying, when I go through that section of the library, it seems like every single book is about death. And it did provoke a good conversation from that.   But I think it was Sarah McKenzie who was the first person that I heard explain the difference between a middle grade novel or YA because from my understanding, middle grade isn't just for those grades. You even said younger ages can enjoy that and older. I have friends that only read middle grade novel now as adults.   So, it's not just your reading level, but YA has different rules on it where I think you said anything goes, any topic is allowed. So, it doesn't mean that YA is necessarily what you have to graduate to once you enter high school. Is that right?   Hayley Morell: (26:11 - 27:06) But yes, it's typically and the funny thing that you kind of leaned into it, some middle grade books definitely deal with coming of age or might even have a teenage protagonist, but it's written in a way that a 12 year old could read it and enjoy it. When you get into like the higher YA, it is more like young adults, people starting their own lives, having adventures, leaving home, going on quests. And like you said, bringing in some heavier topics.   Now we have seen since like in the last five years, a lot of books dealing with death and grieving that are hitting that middle grade genre too, which can be helpful. But at the same time, if you're just reading sad books, you might want to change your diet and find a fun, happy book too.   Laura Dugger: (27:07 - 27:31) Again, in a conversation like this, it has to be more general of a recommendation, but there's such a difference, I'm sure in YA for your 13-year-old versus your 18-year-old. So, for someone who does want to dip their toe into some YA books, do you have anyones that you find yourselves recommending again for that age group?   Betsy Farquhar: (27:32 - 28:42) I'll jump in here. We've got a couple of book lists on our site that are, have actual number ages attached to them. Thirteen books for 13-year-old boys is a great one for that younger teen audience.   But those tend to be, they're grappling with some coming-of-age issues, but they tend to be more adventure based in a sense and more fun. I think of the Ranger's Apprentice series by John Flanagan. There's a little bit of language.   There's a little bit of romance, but it's very teen, young teen friendly. And its actually kind of a good picture of men being heroes and women are heroes in very, like the men are men, they're very masculine. And the women, even if they're part of the army, so to speak, they're still doing it in a feminine way.   So, it's just kind of a nice sort of entry into some of those conversations. But then if you fast forward, by the time teens are in their upper teens, they should be able to read adult books too. And so, you might find yourself reading something like Peace Like a River by Leif Enger, which is very much written for an adult market, but very accessible to teens if they're willing to grapple with some of those ideas.   But that book's going to be a lot heavier than a book for a 13-year-old.   Laura Dugger: (28:44 - 29:05) That's helpful just to have examples. And I think it's also helpful to put this into context by reflecting back through time. So, just in America, what have you learned about the trends and the changes in libraries, specifically over the past 75 years?   Betsy Farquhar: (29:06 - 31:30) So, I have a library degree too, so I love talking about libraries. In library science, we have a rule, it's called Ranganathan's Law, and it simply says every book is reader, which means that for every book out there, there's a reader out there. And libraries take that very seriously.   No book is off the table for a public library. We had an entire class on serving our community. So, the goal behind a public library has always been to serve the community in which it's placed.   Now that's changed a lot as our society has changed a lot. So, before World War II, most libraries were funded very locally, local taxes, they may have even been subscription-based, but after we have all these army vets coming back after World War II, they're going back to school later. We have this explosion of information access for people who can't get it.   So, the Library Services Act was the first one. We've had lots of iterations since then. Now it includes technology.   It started with giving federal dollars to rural libraries, and it's continued even to big cities now, but the focus is still on services for people who can't access them as easily. So, free Wi-Fi was a really big one before Wi-Fi was as broad spread. There are services for the blind and for other communities that might not be able to read as easily.   So, it's still sort of an information hub, but I think that makes us uncomfortable sometimes as Christians because our society has changed so much that we go into a library now and we're like, I would never read this book to my kid. Well, but your neighbor might, and the public library is not the parent of your child. The public library is serving the whole community.   So, go ahead and request them to stock some Christian books. A lot of them will buy the Christian books that you request because they want to serve you. You're part of their community.   So, I think we just have to remember that their goal is broader. My goal as a parent is far more niche than my public librarian's goal to serve her community. She's not my enemy.   Even if she's picking things for story time that I would never read to my children, it doesn't mean I have to ignore the library. I can love that those are image bearers. I can respectfully bring up my concerns, and I can suggest books and I can build a relationship with this fellow image bearer in my community.   It can be a great mission field. So, yes, libraries are continually evolving. That's why they now offer you can even check out sports equipment.   They're still trying to provide information and resources for the community.   Hayley Morell: (31:32 - 32:01) I just recommended or requested two books that were Christian picture books that aren't in our system. And one of our librarians helped me fill out the form explaining why I wanted them. And I just got a notification yesterday. Both are on hold for me and have been added to our library. So, it's exciting. If you don't ask, you don't know if you're going to get it. I honestly was surprised. I was like, oh, they actually got the books I wanted.   Laura Dugger: (32:02 - 32:56) It is so exciting when they do that. I love our local library, and the staff is just wonderful to work with. So, that's great encouragement for us to get to know them by name and have a relationship with them.   And just to zero in on that one piece after World War II, I think that's tied to what so many people call is it the golden age of children's literature where some people will say we only read books before a certain year, like mid-1900s. But I love that you guys review even modern books because it's not that it was all better back then. But I do think there's a piece of truth in it that libraries had to be so discerning back then with less funding.   And so maybe they had the best of the best available and then funds came in and we can have a wider range.   Betsy Farquhar: (32:56 - 33:40) There's so many factors here historically because we could really nerd out, but I won't. But what's also being reflected is simply printmaking technology because the ability to print paperbacks, paperbacks as like a thing weren't a thing until the 20th century. So, books were incredibly expensive.   You've got all those factors playing in too. So, not only are they getting different funding, but there is an explosion in printmaking technology that allows publishers to produce inexpensive books. And that allows families and libraries to buy more books.   It's not dissimilar to the way we have digital media now that's got its own sort of technology behind the distribution of the digital books. So, there's a lot of factors involved in that.   Laura Dugger: (33:41 - 34:03) That is fascinating. I'm glad you brought that up. And like I said, so helpful to look back.   But now if we're also looking forward, I'd really appreciate your perspective on where we're headed. So, what's on your radar for genres or books that may require even more discernment in the future?   Hayley Morell: (34:04 - 37:18) So, right now, romanticy is having a moment and that's a genre that is getting a lot of attention. There's a lot of marketing using that language. And I think it's really helpful to realize this is a marketing term.   So, Fourth Wing became very popular. That is a book that is for adults. It has a lot of explicit sex.   But it used the term romanticy and it sold very well. And so suddenly all books that are fantasy and have some romance are being called romanticy. And that could mean a lot of different things.   So, what we're seeing is this term that if it's used in the YA genre, we don't know what it means going into a book. It might mean a lot of focus on romance and some unhelpful sex. It also could mean a really fun fantasy that happens to have a romantic angle.   So, I recently gave a starred review to A Forgery of Fate by Elizabeth Lim. That's a Chinese fairy tale, beauty and the beast type story. And it is excellent.   One of the marketing terms that used was romanticy. And it just is a wonderful fantasy story that has this thread of romance perfectly appropriate for teen readers. But that is a term that we're currently aware of.   And this is a genre that we want to notice and take with a grain of salt. It's kind of a contrast on the other side. It's differentiating between romanticy has romance and then there's cozy fantasy, which is more cottage core, comfortable feeling.   It also could have sex. So, there's, as we run into this fantasy genre, there's a lot of things going on, but it's definitely having a moment. And it's just nice to know what's going on and what cozy fantasy is going to be focused on character development, like very like a shopkeeper who inherits a cottage with a garden and grows mushrooms.   That's cozy fantasy. Romanticy is a chosen one motif who's at some dramatic school. Dark academia is also having a moment where it's a lot of angst, a lot of little bit of horror.   And some of it can be done really well because it's popular. There's a lot of it out there. And so, some discernment is required as you're figuring out, is this a book for adults or is this a book for teens?   I think I would be cautious with books that are being marketed for adults as romanticy because you could run into some things that are meant for an adult audience and might not be helpful for that teenage reader of yours.   Betsy Farquhar: (37:18 - 38:06) The only other thing I'll add, and this is sort of a different approach, but we're seeing a lot of genre blending. It's getting harder to say this is a mystery or this is a fantasy, even this is a historical fiction story. So, I think genre fiction in general is kind of having a moment.   And when we say genre fiction, we really mean things like mystery, science fiction, romanticy, these sort of sub genres that are underneath the broader terms of realistic fiction or speculative fiction is an umbrella term that includes fantasy, dystopia, science fiction, magical realism, all the little niche downstream sort of sub genres. But we're seeing some really interesting things. It's going to be harder to automatically decide I like that genre, or I don't because they're just mixing and matching elements from all over the place.   Laura Dugger: (38:08 - 39:15) Mm-hmm. That is helpful. I had never heard of some of those things that you just mentioned, but also I'd love for you to respond after I shared this story.   I had a previous guest, Megan Cabe, who used to run a blog. It was called Young Book Love and she would review, I think, middle grade novels, maybe a little bit of YA, but she would say most topics are beneficial to read, even if they're difficult, what you all refer to as messy books. But she did provide extra caution and just said she strongly advised against explicit sexual content because those mental images have a way of sticking with us.   And I agree with her. I would also add sometimes what's not appropriate for our children is not appropriate for us either. And just a funny way to remember this, I had a loved one recently who just said, “You can't sugarcoat a turd. I'd love your take on all of that.”   Hayley Morell: (39:17 - 41:54) So, we like to use the term beyond ever after when we're dealing with this idea of what romance is helpful, what is not helpful. And like you said, the age of the reader comes into play because something that might be a good conversation point with your teen, let's say dealing with a first kiss, that is something that is good to be thinking about and be talking about having healthy conversations about what is God's design for sexuality. And as you are starting to notice the opposite sex and have feelings, what do we do with those?   And again and again, it's been shown that it is helpful to have these conversations because if we're not having a conversation about what is God's view and what does God want us to do with this, our young people are going to turn to the world, which is very happy to give them a lot of talk about sexuality, but some very different perspectives and answers that are focused on yourself, let's you do you versus no, what has God given us and how are we going to steward this?   So, one of the things that I like to, that we like to be aware of as we're reviewing at Redeemed Reader is, is this a 12-year-old reading this book? And if a 12-year-old is reading a book and in the book, a 12-year-old is having a crush and it's kissing, we don't want our 12-year-olds kissing. That's not that helpful yet.   I mean, that's, that's quite young and yes, in some cultures you might, but not yet. However, if this is a book about an 18-year-old on a high school trip, like Becky Dean has some really fun YA romances that are appropriate for teens, then dealing with what is it like dating? What is it like dealing with these emotions and chemistry that can be really well done for an 18-year-old?   But like you said, we want to be aware of our imaginations. We want to be aware of what we're able to handle. And for someone, maybe reading those romances is fun and helpful.   For another, it might be unhelpful. And I think that comes down to as a reader growing discernment and knowing what you are able to read that will still be edifying.   Betsy Farquhar: (41:56 - 42:55) I'm going to piggyback a little bit. I, I agree that there, we look to scripture for what the standards are, and the Bible is not describing sexual activity in sordid detail. So, it's probably a good idea for us not to be wallowing in the same sorts of things.   And I think the same thing is true for language. In fact, it's easier to ignore profanity in a book you're reading versus listening to it. I mean, if we immerse ourselves in audio books that have, that are littered with profanity, it's going to stick in our head differently than if we're just reading it on the page.   And I think sexual activity; there are some similar dynamics at play. Obviously, a visual scene is going to be probably stick with us even more than a written scene. But either way, you know, that's part of discernment is what is my imagination doing with this?   And the overall picture of my reading diet. Is this all I'm reading? Is this what my thoughts are going towards?   Are they pointing me back to Christ? Are they promoting some helpful conversation? Or is it just sort of my guilty pleasure? Well, that should be maybe a sign.   Laura Dugger: (43:21 - 43:45) Some love stories are described as squeaky clean. But when it comes to the world of Christian romance, what are some helpful questions that we can be asking our tween or teen? And what are some healthy considerations for filtering books that we're going to allow to be consumed in our home?   Hayley Morell: (43:47 - 47:15) So, it's interesting. I think each genre of romance can have its own pitfalls. And I know I really appreciate the authors who are writing clean, squeaky-clean stories.   And as I've read them and consumed them, one of the things I've noticed is that it is clean. There's no question of something being clean. But at the same time, if the only thing we're reading, going back to having a balanced book diet, is a squeaky-clean story, I don't think that's helpful because it doesn't show an accurate view of the world.   And we want to be preparing our tweens and teens for a world where, yes, there is a happily ever after. Yes, we have the fairy tale wedding, or we have an imagination that is sparked by boy meets girl. But then what happens next?   And we live in a fallen world. And so, we have to work on relationships. We have to work on communicating.   And sometimes squeaky clean can lean so far into being safe that it doesn't actually show what it is like to have a relationship with the opposite sex. I think of one story I read and it's very superficial, playful. Snarky is often something I've noticed in the squeaky clean because we don't, we have to have some form of banter.   And so, it's perpetual sarcasm and no physical touch. But then suddenly our protagonists marry and now they're still being snarky and not touching. And as an adult, I look at that and go, that is not an accurate portrayal of what it looks like to have a romance and to have marriage.   And so, we love to ask, what are the relationships like in this book? And if that's in a middle grade novel, one of the things we love seeing is are they showing a healthy family? Are they showing parents that like being together?   Because that's at a middle grade level is you're sparking that imagination. What is our protagonist seeing as the adults around them are having relationships? Do the adults like to be together?   I just was reading a really sweet, Betsy, I think you read it. But Will's Race for Home is a story about this boy and westward expansion. And so, it's when the Oklahoma, Oklahoma land rush opens up.   And there's the sweetest time where he talks about how he knows his father loves his mother because his father will look at his mother and she will blush. And it's the sweetest age-appropriate picture of what romance looks like when you're a 12-year-old looking at your parents. And I think that type of thing can be a really healthy way of having these conversations versus having a diet that is just squeaky clean and yet might actually be showing an inaccurate portrayal of what it's like to have relationships in a fallen world.   Laura Dugger: (47:16 - 47:30) Well, let's get specific on another type of book as well. How do you advise parents to think critically on what age is appropriate to consume what you mentioned earlier, the Hunger Games or a book like that?   Betsy Farquhar: (47:31 - 49:44) Ooh, pick me. I love these kind of books. I'll read anything.   And I tend to get tasked with books that are difficult sometimes. Although many of us on our team read them and we do talk about these behind the scenes. So, when you're thinking about the age your child is and when they're ready for any book, but especially a popular one, I think part of that is our job as parents is always to be watching our children, to be students of our children.   How are they consuming media in general? What kind of video games? What kind of movies?   Are they on social media? What is their media diet like? And how are they handling that?   And if they're showing discernment in general, and they're kind of grappling with issues and ideas, then they're going to be ready for a book like the Hunger Games sooner than a child who's just blindly taking it all in. There's no magic age where you say, ooh, you're 12, you can read the Hunger Games. A lot depends on what that child's already displayed.   And I think dystopia are the books where there's some apocalyptic future and there's usually an autocratic governor or government system or it's futuresque. But they're really great books about bringing up big questions about how society works and the nature of authority and even the nature of anarchy. And they're just such great discussion starters.   But if your child isn't able to have those kinds of conversations yet, they're going to miss the forest for the trees and it's going to be all shock value. But I'm going to add a big caveat. If it's really popular and you think your child is maybe ready, maybe not quite, I would probably go ahead and read it with him or her if all of the peers are reading it.   Because I would rather my child have that conversation with me than with their friend. Or at least have it with me first before they read it with their friends. Even if we skip parts, maybe it's a book that you feel like we can't read chapter 12 for whatever reason.   Be honest with your child and say, you know what? This book has a scene I'm really uncomfortable with. Maybe give a brief summary.   We're going to keep going. But engage with your children over what is popular. I think that is the number one takeaway because they're going to find answers somewhere.   We want it to be from us.   Laura Dugger: (49:46 - 50:52) That is good. And that's why I appreciate the redeemed reader because you're putting in all this work for us because we can't pre-read everything. But when we're faced with a situation like that, it is helpful that we can choose to read some with them.   And another angle, I just love a few of your quotes in the book. First, on page 76, you write, If Genesis were made into a true-to-the-book movie, the Redeemed Reader team would not allow our children to watch it. We might abstain as well.   And then you go on for page 111 and you say, the best tool we can give our growing readers is God's word. The more they know and understand the Bible, the better equipped they will be to think discerningly, to recognize error, and to know how the Bible handles the same issues. So, will you just elaborate on this wisdom and advise us on how and why to encourage our children to read the Bible, even though it is messy?   Betsy Farquhar: (50:53 - 52:58) Well, it is a messy book, but thankfully, it's not only a messy book. I mean, if it were a movie, we have nudity very quickly. Then we have rebellion against God, and then we have murder.   And before you know it, six chapters in, the world is so bad that God is sending a flood to destroy it. So, it must have been really bad. But the Bible isn't giving us all those details.   And I think that is a big piece of the picture when it comes to discernment in literature. The Bible is not shy about telling us that people sinned. I mean, our heroes, David, infidelity, murder, you know, most of the famous people in the Bible did something egregiously wrong and sinful.   And yet the whole story of the Bible is God redeeming his people. We're all sinners. And there is hope because of Christ.   None of us can make it without Christ. And so, in the Bible, you're seeing both the mess and the hope. You're seeing God's answer to this problem.   And so, as we read scripture with our kids, one of the things that is helpful is we know what sin is. It's rebellion against God. It includes everything from sexual activity outside of marriage to gossip and pride and sort of the easy sins, right?   They're all sin. So, I think that's one thing that comes across when we're studying God's word. We also see Christ.   And when we then turn to a book, just a regular fiction book or even a nonfiction book, is the book also labeling sin as sin or at least a mistake? Or is it glorifying it? How is it handling it compared to how we know scripture handles it?   Is there any hope in the book? And where is that hope found? Are they just praying to the universe?   We're seeing universe capitalized all over the place now as sort of this amorphous deity. Well, that's not hopeful. I don't want to pray to Jupiter.   You know, we have a God who cares about us. And so just getting your kids to sort of reckon with the differences between how a book is portraying hope and judgment versus how scripture portrays it, that's going to take them a long way.   Laura Dugger: (53:01 - 53:23) That's fantastic. And your book lists at the end of each chapter are reason enough to purchase the book. But I'm sure that you've encountered additional titles since your publication date that you also enjoy.   So, will you share a handful of book recommendations, maybe some from each of those sweet spots again from your team?   Hayley Morell: (53:24 - 54:03) For young adults, we've actually mentioned both of the ones that I would add. They both have received starred reviews. A Forgery of Fate by Elizabeth Lim.   Excellent fantasy for young adults. And then Bright Red Fruit by Sophia O'Heo. And that one is a discussion starter.   It is a messy book, but it's an excellent book for its audience. Those would be two young adult fantasies. We see a lot of young adult fantasies.   So, but I would have loved to include those in the book. We just read them later.   Betsy Farquhar: (54:03 - 55:03) So, quick correction, Bright Red Fruit's not a fantasy, but it is it is. Oh, I apologize. That's fine.   It's a discussion starter. And that usually means that there's something in there you need to know about before you read it. As a parent, I would recommend doing your homework on that book.   It's a really good book to read with your daughters, but you might want to pre-read it first. Middle grade, that's our biggest bucket. Because it's the most it's got the widest audience reach and it's just so fun.   So, some of the ones that we've really liked, The Teacher of Nomadland by Daniel Nayeri. He is a Christian author. He won the National Book Award for this book for young people's literature and a Newbery Honor.   It's fantastic. It's a story about World War II. Benny on the Case by Wesley King is a really lovely mystery that features the protagonist has mosaic down syndrome, and it's just not very common to read books with different disabilities represented.   So, that's just a really sweet story. Lots of fun.   Hayley Morell: (55:04 - 55:05) It's a great audio book too.   Betsy Farquhar: (55:06 - 56:40) Yes. Song of the Stone Tiger, another Christian author, Glenn McCarty. It's a kind of a mix of realistic fiction and fantasy.   So, it's fun. A new one that we like. And then I'll leave you with one more.   I actually have it right here. So, for those who are watching this, they can see it. It's called Radiant by Vonda Michaud-Nelson.   And it's a novel in verse, but a beautiful picture of what it means to love your neighbor. So, The Sword by Marty Murkowski from New Growth Press. It's kind of a family devotional resource.   It was the World Magazine Book of the Year. We gave it a starred review as well. The Amazing Generation is a book for kids by the same author as The Anxious Generation.   So, that book is like a super bestseller for adults. This is kind of taking that idea and helping kids know how not to be the anxious generation, right? How they can be the amazing generation.   The World Entire is a nonfiction, maybe technically a picture book, but it's really long. And it's for this audience. And it's a true story about World War II, about a rescue.   I think it was set in Portugal. And then a graphic novel that's nonfiction. I'm trying to cover all your different genres here.   This is How to Say Goodbye in Cuban by Daniel Meadez. It's about his father and how he emigrated or escaped from Cuba. But it's a graphic novel.   So, there's a lot of visual interest. So, that's a really interesting background for kids who are hearing a lot of headlines about places like Cuba. And they're like, what's really going on?   A book like that can help them understand just some of the nuance behind the headlines.   Hayley Morell: (56:41 - 58:51) One of the things about middle grades as we talk about books is that middle grade is the age where readers are just exploding. And while you might have been able to keep up with your reader, then they hit 10 or 12 years old, and you give them a stack of books and they're reading them and asking for more. So, we definitely have a lot of middle grade reviews.   Picture books, though, are another place that we just love. And there's been some recent ones that we looked at and got, oh, this would be so good for the book. Something like Tuesday's Bear by Alexander Davis.   It's this beautiful story based on a true historical event. Unclaimed luggage is where, you know, if a suitcase gets lost, what happens to the contents? Well, one family had an idea, and Alexandra tells it through the story of this little bear who gets lost and then is found.   It's the most beautiful story. As a Christian, you can see a lot of very true themes running through it. And it's a delight to read aloud.   Wild Honey from the Moon by Kenneth Craigel. It's a story about a mother shrew whose little boy is sick, and she is going to do anything, even if it means traveling all the way to the moon to get some wild honey. It's a very imaginative story.   Beautiful pictures. A couple sneak peek that are going to just, these reviews are just going up. Iguanodon's Horn by Sean Rubin.   We've loved Bolivar, it was a graphic novel he did about a dinosaur. You can tell he likes dinosaurs. This is an amazing nonfiction picture book.   And for our Christian readers, this is a book about dinosaurs that doesn't have evolution. And I think you're going to love it. One more. His Grace is Enough. This is like Dr. Zeus type rhyming. Melissa Kruger wrote it.   It's a Christian book and it's a wonderful reminder for children. When you are dealing with sin, God's grace is enough. And I think you'll find if you read this, you'll be repeating the stanzas to yourself and encouraged as you read.   Laura Dugger: (58:54 - 59:41) I love having book lists. And if any other listeners are like me, we'll finish this episode and go ahead and put a bunch of books on hold at the library, which is always so convenient. And I'm sure a lot of people aren't able to take notes right now.   Maybe they're driving or working out as they're listening to this. But I love that every episode on The Savvy Sauce now has a transcript available. So, if anybody wants these book lists, you can go to the show notes page, either on our website or click on your podcast app and the transcript is available there.   So, thank you for all those wonderful recommendations. And do you have any other helpful tips to give us as parents if we're trying to navigate this well?   Betsy Farquhar: (59:42 - 1:00:26) Yes, start at birth and start not just reading with your kids, but asking them questions. They don't, it doesn't have to be a lengthy discussion. Is Piglet a good friend to poo?   You know, if you're reading Winnie the Pooh or if you're an Elephant and Piggy fan, like my kids were. Do you think Gerald should share his ice cream with Piggy? You can just pause in the middle of the story and just get them thinking, right?   So then when you get to the Hunger Games, you can say, what did you think of the ending? Would you have liked it to end differently? Those are great open-ended questions that get people talking and engaging and that you're often running.   If you can just think, I need to engage with my kids over what we're reading, then almost any book can be a discussion starter.   Laura Dugger: (1:00:27 - 1:00:33) Well, where can we go after this conversation to find more of your book recommendations?   Betsy Farquhar: (1:00:35 - 1:01:29) I'll do this one. Redeemedreader, alloneword.com is our website. And then we're super creative.   Our Facebook is exactly the same. Redeemedreader, alloneword. Our Instagram is redeemed underscore reader.   That's kind of a long story. But if you Google Redeemed Reader, you'll find us. And then the best way, oh yes, of course our book, which is also called The Redeemed Reader.   We're so original. But the best way to experience Redeemed Reader, other than the book, is through our weekly newsletter, which Haley curates and she does a fantastic job. But there's where you'll get the latest reviews.   We put in links for other places around the web that you might find interesting, different bookish news. Haley does a really fun book trivia with picture books. So, we like to think that it's going to make your inbox a happy place.   It's not a marketing email.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:30 - 1:01:50) I love that. We will provide links to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And you two are already familiar.   We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Betsy Farquhar: (1:01:52 - 1:03:03) So, as a business owner and a mom and a wife, it's probably not a surprise that I love my planner, but I've been through a lot of planners in my day, and I have very specific requirements. It needs to be bound, not coil bound. There's a certain size.   I mean, I have issues. I should say I have high standards for my planner. The single best feature in my current planner is that it forces me to break down my to do list between my life to do and my work to do.   And that was a game changer for me because I am wearing a lot of hats as most women are these days. And so, I limit myself to the number of bullet points that I'm given in the planner so that my work doesn't overtake my family life. It tends to be that way, sadly, more than the other way around.   Usually, my family life is not overtaking the work life, but it just it just gives me a chance to articulate each week. You know, I've got a birthday coming up that I need to plan for or I need to make sure my I mean, I graduated my youngest last year from high school, but the senior year in high school has a lot of deadlines. And so, it just helped me prioritize those milestones for my family and not let work get in the way.   Love that.   Laura Dugger: (1:03:03 - 1:03:04) What's the name of your planner?   Betsy Farquhar: (1:03:04 - 1:03:17) It's called the commit 30. I know there are other planners that do the same sort of thing, but I love having a weekly spread and I just love breaking it out between life to do and work to do.   Laura Dugger: (1:03:18 - 1:03:20) Absolutely. That sounds amazing. I love it.   Hayley Morell: (1:03:21 - 1:05:10) And my savvy sauce, I was going to say, Betsy is the planner and Betsy, I know you wouldn't appreciate this is spiral bound. So, I echo having a planner is a great way for me to just sort through all my thoughts, put them down and organize what needs to get done. But my savvy sauce is related to tech habits.   And as we were getting ready for our first, my husband and I were talking about how could we be mindful with our phone usage? And I have to thank Betsy for recommending Andy Crouch's, The Tech-Wise Family. Love that book.   And one of the things that we decided to do was to create a charging station downstairs in our house. And when I am not working where I need my phone for authentication or sending a voice message or being on the phone, if I'm not actively working, my phone lives on its charger. And that's been a struggle for me.   I have to admit the moment I had a child, anxiety kicked in. And for the first month, the phone was on me because that's what I needed to have a little security blanket. But I've been learning to leave my phone behind.   And then I'm not tempted to pick it up and scroll. And I feel like a child again because I get to the middle of the afternoon. And since I haven't been distracting myself, I've been getting things done. And all of a sudden I'm like; it's two o'clock and it's not dinner time yet. I have all of this time because I've created some more time by using the phone as a tool. But not having it right present and honestly, just distracting myself with it.   Laura Dugger: (1:05:12 - 1:05:48) That is a good, savvy tip. I love both of those. And you two have such warm and engaging personalities.   And I love those benefits that you were talking about for people who are readers. I experienced all of that through both of you today. And you're so wise and discerning yourselves.   And I am just beyond grateful that the Lord gifted you with your intellect, but also this passion for reviewing these resources. You're benefiting so many parents and children alike.   So, thank you for the work that you do. And thank you for being my guests.   Betsy Farquhar: (1:05:49 - 1:05:57) Thank you for having us. It is all from the Lord. Anything we have that's wise and worth taking away.   The credit should go to him, of course.   Hayley Morell: (1:05:58 - 1:06:00) Ame

Discovering Your BEST Colors and Style Upgrades for Your Closet and Home with Color and Style Consultant, Carla Gasser (Episode 292)   Romans 12:2 NLT “Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.”   *Transcription Below*   Carla Gasser is a Christian author, speaker, and certified color/style consultant known for helping women connect faith with everyday life, focusing on spiritual and inner beauty through decluttering the soul. Based in Ohio, she's the author of The Beauty of an Uncluttered Soul, speaks at women's events, teaches Bible studies, and offers personal style guidance, encouraging authenticity and grace in messy, real-life situations.   Carla's Website   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you walk us through exactly what you do during a color analysis?  What are your best tips for: Make-up, jewelry color, print options, and general styling tips? Now that we have this information, how can we begin to edit and curate our closet?   Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: 134 Fashion Meets Faith with Shari Braendel 251 Wintering and Embracing Holy Hygge with Jamie Erickson   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:12)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:47) Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to the Sue Neihouser team for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.   Carla Gasser is my guest today. Not only is she a color and style consultant, but she's also an author and a Bible teacher. We're going to discuss some very practical ways that you can discover what colors are uniquely best for you and then learn also how you can incorporate those into your closet and into your home. I have been wanting to do an episode like this for such a long time.   During undergrad, I was able to minor in fashion merchandising and even got to study abroad in Europe with a group of about 50 people. It was so exhilarating, and I've just always been drawn to topics like this one. In addition, what excites me about today is the way that Carla will talk about beauty both inside and out.   I can't wait to share this conversation with you. Here's our chat. Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Carla.   Carla Gasser: (1:48 - 1:51) So, great to be with you today, Laura. Thanks for inviting me.   Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 1:59) Well, I am just absolutely fascinated by your work. So, can you explain a little bit more of what you get to do?   Carla Gasser: (1:59 - 3:36) Sure. If we're talking about the outer beauty part of my business, I was trained as a certified color analysis and style consultant by Sheri Brandel, who's the owner, founder, and CEO of Style by Color. What I love most about that training is that we're independent contractors.   So, I was able to take that certification and everything I knew and already incorporated it into what my ministry was. My ministry for the past 20 years is talking about how God makes us beautiful from the inside out. But I've always had this struggle because I've loved fashion, and I've loved dressing, and I've loved outer beauty as well, which is something that God created, right?   So, a couple of years ago after I did the certification, I kind of incorporated it, and it was easier than I thought because God is the author of beauty. God is beauty. So, because I'm a Bible study teacher and I love digging into God's word, I just focused more on that.   And my book and my Bible study is called The Beauty of an Uncluttered Soul. So, those two things just ended up meshing beautifully for me. And it also helped me reach out to a wider audience, women who are interested about outer beauty and fashion and style and color and design, but they're looking for something more, and I could provide that for them too.   So, it's been wonderful. I mean, I've really enjoyed it.   Laura Dugger: (3:36 - 3:51) Well, it's such a unique pairing. And I think, is there anything you'd want to elaborate on for us as believers, as Christians? Why does it matter, both internal and external beauty?   Right.   Carla Gasser: (3:51 - 6:00) I'm speaking about this next week, and I've been starting to incorporate this in when I speak because the world has distorted beauty, right? And they have hijacked it, and they have made it into something that God never designed it to be. But if we look at the other side of it, the church, I feel, sometimes has over-spiritualized inner beauty to the exclusion of outer beauty.   So, I was caught in that tension, and I think many believing women are, well, outer beauty is shallow, inner beauty is spiritual, right? And I say it's not either or, it's and both, right? That if God created the sunsets, and all the beautiful flowers, and the things that make us post these images on Instagram of his natural beauty, then God cares about beauty.   And I love it when it says he created them in Genesis, and it was very good. The only time he uses very good is when he's talking about humans, man and woman. He created them very good.   If you go back to the Hebrew word of very good, it's tov, and it means beautiful. So, when I speak to women, I say, we are going to stop right now, and we are going to say, I was created beautiful. And a lot of women don't say that, can't say that, are afraid to say that.   And I'm here to say yes, and it's okay to express that. And I don't stand up there saying, you have to look like me, or dress like me. I want you to discover your unique style, your unique beauty.   You know, it's not a one size fits all. It's not like, well, this is the trend, so you've got to wear it. I don't want to put any more pressure on women.   I want to free women to embrace their God-given beauty, if that makes sense.   Laura Dugger: (6:01 - 6:12) Absolutely. Well, and one of the ways you do that is through color analysis, but can you walk us through like exactly what you do during a color analysis meeting?   Carla Gasser: (6:12 - 13:55) Color analysis is having a moment, isn't it? And what I'm finding is either if you're my age or older, and I'm in my late fifties, you remember seasonal color analysis, right? And when I start talking color analysis, those women will say to me, well, in the eighties, I was a winter, I was a spring, I was a summer, right?   And what am I now? And then if you talk to my daughter's generation, like twenties and thirties, they're hearing seasonal color analysis come back to, but they're watching it on Instagram and TikTok. And they're like, well, I'm a cool summer.   I'm a neutral winter. And I'm like, what is going on? This is confusing.   So, Sherry Brandel, like I said, the owner and founder of Style by Color was one of the first people who was trained in Color Me Beautiful, the seasonal color system. So, she knows it inside and out. And what she decided to do was to take the tenets, the basics of the seasonal color system, but expand it.   So, we don't, you're not going to walk out of a color analysis telling people you're a winter. We have six unique codes, and our codes are more illustrative of what you are. So, I'm a clear, okay?   There's warm, there's soft, there's cool, there's deep, and there's light. And what we're doing, and I can show a cute little chart here that helps, what we're doing is we're basing it on the seasonal color system, but we're actually giving you more colors. Because what we're doing when I say you're a soft, I am taking the softer colors, palettes, tones, and hues of summer and fall and giving them to you.   So, the other thing that we do that other systems don't do, we take into account your hair. In many of these systems or color analysis appointments, you'll see them put a white cap over a woman's head and just look at her face. We're like, what?   Your hair has so much to do with your overall coloring. I mean, I know it's hard for you to do this but imagine me platinum blonde. Wouldn't I look totally different if I was platinum blonde and this very dark hair I have?   So, we take into account your hair color. And what we're doing is we're doing tonal color analysis, meaning I am looking at your major color dominant characteristics. Like I just said, your hair color, your eye color, your skin tone.   And now I'm not trying to determine whether you're cool or warm or neutral. That got the Color Me Beautiful system into like 24 color codes because they took every season and they broke it down like six ways and it became complicated and crazy. What we're doing is I'm comparing my skin tone to my hair to my eyes.   And we give you a rating of one to five, meaning, and it's really good if we're both on camera here, people are going to see this right away. I'm a five. I am the highest contrast level.   Can we know why? I've got really dark hair and really light skin and light eyes. So, I'm a five.   Now we look at you. You're not a five. You are a lower contrast level because your hair and your skin tone when you turn are pretty similar.   And your eyes kind of are in the middle there. So, I would put you at a three or a two. And that contrast level helps me determine your color code.   Not only that, it helps me determine what prints and patterns you should wear, what jewelry you should wear. I mean, what makeup you should wear? So, that is how we differ.   And I feel that learning the tonal part of this and understanding contrast level was a game changer for me. And that's what I teach my clients. That once you know that it's easy for me to put you in a color code.   I also use these capes behind me that help during a color analysis. But I also do things like I, you know, use patterns. You know, this is a high contrast level pattern.   So, this is going to look good on someone like me, black and white. If I put a black and white on you, you're going to look like a floating head. It's not cohesive.   But what you're going to look better in is something like this because this is medium contrast. Okay, so we do that. We also talk about pop colors.   Everybody, you know, will say, well, don't take red away from me. Red's my favorite color. Don't take blue away from me.   I wear blue all the time. I'm like, I'm not taking hardly any colors away from you. What I'm teaching you is when you go into a store and you want to know what red, well, my red and your red are very different, right?   So, I'm not taking red away from you. I'm just trying to guide you towards the right red. I'm not taking pink away from you.   Oh, one color code I do. Pink away from you. I'm just telling you, you know, I need this pink.   This is my pink, right? That's my yellow. So, that's what we do.   We break it all down. When I do mini color analysis, I'm usually in a boutique and I love working with boutique owners because then I can help people shop right after. But it's a 15-minute quick appointment.   I give you digital downloads of your colors. Like I said, every color codes gets 35 plus colors. And if you have them on your phone, when you're out shopping, you're scrolling and going, oh, I can use this.   Oh, I can use this. Not only in our digital collection, we give you the trending colors twice a year for fall and winter and spring and summer. Because we both know that colors, you know, have moments, right?   Pantone picks their color of the year, which happens to be white this year, which I'm like, that's a little counterintuitive because I don't know that white's a color, but anyways, it's a neutral. So, you have them on your phone and then you can decide and they update. I also have color cards for old school people like me that want the physical representation, and we sell those as well.   And you can put those in your purse, and you can use them. But I tell people, use them for your nail color, use them for your makeup, use them even when you're decorating your home. A lot of people gravitate to the colors that they look good in, and you can use them in other ways or even pairing colors together.   How do we do that? So that is a mini one. And in that one, I'm just giving you your best neutrals, your colors to avoid, your jewelry choices.   But when you come to my home and I do do it, I have a studio in my home, it's an hour and a half to two hour and we go through it all. You know, we go through it all. When I go into your closet, that's a whole different thing.   And I do ask that people have a color analysis before I do a closet edit. Because once we know your colors, then organizing your closet, creating and curating a capsule wardrobe becomes so much easier.   Laura Dugger: (13:57 - 14:08) Okay, we'll have to follow up on that. But first, I'm just so curious, which color person does not get pink, the warm, warm, warm.   Carla Gasser: (14:08 - 17:23) So, those are people usually with Auburn red hair, you know, they're in that category. So, they get all the spices. And they're the opposite of someone like me, like I can't wear anything with like a gold, yellow undertone.   You know, I can't really wear orange, the orange, I have one orange in my palette, believe it or not, but it's super bright. It's not an orange I probably would wear. One of the comments that someone made to me that said they were afraid to get a color analysis because they thought I would take too much away from them.   Right? They would I would take away their favorite colors; I would tell them they don't look good in things they look good in. Most people, it's so interesting, because sometimes when you come to my home, I ask you to bring some clothes with you, like bring something that everyone says when you walk in a room, wow, you look great in that.   And bring something that you don't ever reach for in your closet, because you're not sure of. And people are closer than they think to knowing their, their right colors. Sometimes I kind of shake them up a bit.   But I give them so much that some people say, well, I can't possibly wear all these colors. There's 36 colors here. And I try to tell people focus on your neutrals, because people have different neutrals, right?   Focus on your neutrals and then add one to two pop colors per season. Because if you try to wear every color in there, that you know, your closet is going to be very cluttered and very overwhelming. But it really helps you declutter and focus because there are stores I walk into now that I literally make one loop and I walk right back out.   Because they're all these light colors and palettes and warm tones. And I call it cafe latte dressing that you would look gorgeous in. But for me, so why would I waste my time in that store?   Right, I walk in real quick. And I've taught women how to shop, right? Because how many of us were taught how to shop, we go in, we go to the sale rack, we go in, we look for something that's trending, we go in, and we bring it home.   And we stand in front of our closet every morning and say what, I have nothing to wear. Right? I have nothing to wear because our closets are full of things that don't match with each other, that we don't feel good in, that we might have bought because we thought it was a deal.   But we don't know if they look good on us. We don't know if they work on our body shape. We don't know how to put them together with what we already have.   So, less really is more. I'm not trying to get people to go out and spend thousands of dollars on a whole new wardrobe. I ask, especially in a closet edit, we're going to work first with what you have.   And then you might have to go out and buy one or two key pieces. But really my last closet edit, she had to buy three things at the end. That was it.   To make over, we talked about, we ended up making her at least 35 different outfits with what she already had and going out and buying three pieces. That was it.   Laura Dugger: (17:24 - 20:14) We'll come back shortly after a brief message from our sponsor. With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser team is a RE-MAX agent of Central Illinois, and she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors. For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831.   And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer. When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home.   And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process. This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team.   The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market, but Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell. She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process, and she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she's thought of everything, and Sue's continued generosity was astonishing.   I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Ms. Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home. So, whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time or looking to upgrade or downsize or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years, Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress-free and that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made.   So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Okay, so that also makes me curious when you talk about the colors that you put together.   Yes. Do you use a color wheel, or do you have any practical ways that we can learn how to put different colors together in our home or in our closet?   Carla Gasser: (20:14 - 22:34) Right, that goes back to the contrast level that we talked about, and it also goes back to body shape. So, contrast level is can you wear, you know, high contrast prints or outfits? Like I can wear black and white.   Would I tell you to do that? Probably not. So, when you know what your contrast level is, that not only informs your prints, your patterns, your colors, it informs your outfits.   Here's a quick tip about dressing for your body shape. All right, we talk about inner column versus outer column. So, if you carry your weight in your belly and this is a, you know, I always tell women when I'm speaking to them, place your hands on the one area of yourself that you wish you could camouflage, right?   And some of us go to our hips. Some of us, we all have it, right? But if that is your area, your belly is your area, and I like to camouflage it.   What you want to create is an inner column. How do you create an inner column? So, if you were looking at my outfit right now, an inner column would be that this blue here, I would wear the same color pants.   I've got an inner column. And then I put this jacket over it because when you look at that inner column, there's no waist definition. There's no, it's just an inner column.   It makes me look taller. It makes me look thinner. It, you know, draws the eye up to the face.   We always want to draw the eye up to the face. Now, if your problem area is more your hips and you want to camouflage that, but you've got a smaller waist, then you do an outer column. Whereas with me, again, I keep the blue shirt. I tuck it in, but I wear black pants because black and black.   So, those are just two quick little tips that people could take away based on, you know, an inner column also works well for people who are large chested, who want to kind of camouflage this part, you know, who have kind of a roundness here and outer column again, works for people who also maybe have a more of a pear shaped or, um, not only pear shaped, but like an hourglass figure, an outer column would work better for, does that help?   Laura Dugger: (22:34 - 22:53) Does that make sense? This is so helpful. And I'm wondering, are there any principles that apply to everyone specifically?   I mean, even thinking first when it's summer and when somebody has a tan or when they naturally start graying, how does that work? Does their color change?   Carla Gasser: (22:54 - 25:38) Yes, it does. It does. And we can customize color decks and color codes.   So, I have a few women who are transitioning to gray. They're not there yet, but they're in between. So, what I'm going to do is pull out from their deck, anything that is yellowing or has that warmer undertone and keep her in the cool until, and I also say to people, if you come to me and like you're this one day and you say, Carol, I'm going to go red.   I'm going to be a redhead. I will color code you again for free because that's how much I believe in the system. And that's how much I believe your hair matters for your color code.   So, if you change your color code and you're my color and you say, you know, I'm going to go platinum. Yeah. I just think it'll be fun. Come back. We will. So, you're right.   Your hair has a lot to do with it now in terms of tanning, right? Same thing. I would probably just direct you.   I wouldn't change your color code. I would just direct you to certain colors in your, in your color code more than others. If you're darker or lighter, does that make sense?   That does that's helpful. So, it's perfectly customizable. And that's the whole thing about when I tell people, when I have you as a client, you can go around and tell your friends and brag that you have a stylist because you do, you know, you can text me, you, I get a lot of texts from dressing rooms, women standing there in the mirror, taking the picture, going Carla, does this work?   Does this not work? Do these shoes work? That's what I'm here for.   I want an ongoing relationship. I don't like, I mean, I do one and dones. Okay.   If I'm in a boutique or something and you come in from out of town, you can still contact me. I do virtual, I do, you know, all these kinds of things, but I love having a client as an ongoing relationship because you might change your body, change your season of life, change. You were working now you're not, or you're going back to work, and you haven't been working.   All those things affect what you're going to wear and how you're going to wear and where you shop. I just had a woman who, you know, broke her foot and she's in a boot and she is so upset about this because we just did her closet edit. We just started thinking, well, what shoes should I wear?   So, we've been working together to modify her outfits. We've been working together to get her to a place where she still feels comfortable, but she has to wear this boot. Okay.   We can work around that. We can do that. You know, and I have people who go on vacation.   I have no idea what to pack for vacation. I could only have a carry on. We're going to create a capsule wardrobe for your vacation.   We can do that.   Laura Dugger: (25:39 - 26:09) It is crazy to think of how much this plays into our lives every day. And so, once you learn this, I think it can save you time and money. I'm also thinking of one other principle.   We always hear about the little black dress, but the funny thing is black is the absence of all colors. So, I remember studying that black near the face, even if that's in your palette, that that's not recommended. So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, Carla.   Carla Gasser: (26:09 - 28:18) Yes. I would say black near the face only works for a few of us. You're right.   And I'm one of them, right? Because of this high contrast, but I still like to break it up with color myself. I have an interesting story for you.   I had a friend who really, she should not wear black by her face at all. She is a soft color code. She got invited to a wedding and everyone had to wear black.   She freaked out. I just got my colors done. What am I going to do?   I have to go to this. I said, first of all, we have to respect the bride and groom. Yes.   This is what you want and whatever. What we did, though, is we bought her a huge, chunky leopard necklace. It broke it up and she bought leather leopard shoe shoes and wore the black.   So, there are ways. And I say to people, when I take away black from you and you have all these black clothes at home, I'm like, I don't want you to donate everything to goodwill, but we're going to think of ways to break this up. And one of the ways we break it up near the face is a larger necklace, a scarf, a third piece like this, a vest or a cardigan.   There are ways to do it without going home and saying, oh my word, I have to throw everything away. And then I'll try to redirect those people. Okay, now that you know your neutrals are no longer black, there are a lot of other great neutrals out there.   Dark brown, gray, navy. So, now when you go shopping, don't throw all your black away, but start incorporating other neutrals into your wardrobe that are softer for you and work better for you. And like you asked before, too, are there some colors that everyone can wear?   And I would, I could give you one. There's a couple, but one color that is kind of the universal color that everybody has in about the same shade is teal. It's kind of the couch you're sitting on.   If I read it correctly in your, on the video, teal is kind of a universal color. So, that's something.   Laura Dugger: (28:19 - 28:21) I had no idea. I love that.   Carla Gasser: (28:22 - 28:22) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (28:22 - 28:35) And have you ever even studied the psychology related to colors? For instance, how we can perceive people differently when they are dressed in their best color?   Carla Gasser: (28:36 - 30:08) No, I haven't personally studied that, but I have seen women. Like I just got a testimony the other day, I was asking some of my clients, like, what would you say? And I had this young mom who said, you know, it wasn't low self-esteem that kept me dressing this way.   It was apathy. And I thought that was a really strong word. And she walked into church and she actually sings at church.   So, she's up on stage and we just talked about a few tweaks and she's like everybody said something to me after. And they said, “You sang louder, you were glowing, you were shining.” And she goes, “I felt I didn't do anything different, but just wear what we talked about and changed my clothes.”   So, I do think people notice, I think that there is a radiance that comes from within. Not only are you more confident, but I do think again, it highlights your face. And when your face is highlighted, people are attracted to that, you know?   And I always make a big point when I'm out and about doing my grocery shopping, going to the drugstore, going to the post office, and I see someone wearing the right color. I don't tell her I'm a color now. I don't go through all that.   I just said, you know, you look fabulous in that color. And I'm like, give me a big smile if they're not smiling. And they're just like, well, who is this woman?   I go, and they walk out like two inches taller.   Laura Dugger: (30:09 - 31:30) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?   Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.   Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share.   We appreciate you. Well, I love that you've mentioned Sherri Brandel because she's the one who founded Style by Color, but she was also a previous guest on The Savvy Sauce. So, I'll make sure and link to her fantastic episode.   And I love her testimony. But with you, Carla, at Style by Color, do you ever keep records of the percentage of people who make up each category, or have you even noticed patterns of which ones are most or least common? Yes.   Carla Gasser: (31:31 - 33:10) I think it depends on where you live because when we get all together for consultants, because we do have continuing education, I'm part of their professional development program. So, I'm trained every month in something new, like whether it's hair or makeup or trends or just different things. But we get together once a year for our conference and we talk about where we live.   It seems to me, and I live in Northeast Ohio, kind of between Cleveland and Akron, a lot of the women in my area seem to be softs. There's a lot of soft. I do a lot of soft.   Very rarely do I do someone like me. Now, if you go down, I think in my family, I'm Italian. Most of my Italian relatives are deeps, not as clear as me because they have more of the olive skin.   For some reason, I got this very light skin. I do tan, but I don't tan on my face for some reason. You notice my arms are darker than my face.   So, I do think it kind of runs that way, kind of where you live and maybe a little bit by ethnicity or background. However, I have said to people, because we do this tonal color analysis, there can be people who are clear that don't look exactly like me because what am I doing? I'm comparing their hair to their skin, to their eyes.   I'm not comparing them to me. So, I think that's what makes this unique and makes it very customizable for people. Yes.   Laura Dugger: (33:11 - 33:19) Makes sense. Okay. And this may sound a little overly dramatic, but how have you seen this process improve someone's life?   Carla Gasser: (33:20 - 35:30) Oh, wow. I wish I could read you. I mean, I have some testimonials here that I was just looking through last night and to get prepared for this.   One person said, when I looked at my closet, I felt overwhelmed. I kept buying new things, but none of them seemed to solve my problem. So, many great pieces, but never seemed to be able to pull things together.   Carla came to the rescue. Her instructions on preparing for a meeting were concise and clear. And our 90-minute session flew by.   By the time we were finished, I was feeling so excited about all the new possibilities. Now I find it so easy to step into my closet, a place that once scared me. Take a quick look and decide what to wear for any occasion.   Before, I just had my colors for shopping, but now I have the missing piece of fabric and fit and how to put it all together. So, that's one of them. Another one said thanks for being such an encouragement to me, for showing me how to dress.   And so, I feel beautiful. I'm thankful that I've never struggled with self-esteem the way many women do. But for me, I had become very apathetic, knowing I could probably do better, but not really caring or getting frustrated when I tried, when I tried didn't work the way I thought it should.   You have helped me to see what many times I've picked close to the right colors or I've settled for good enough when I could have added pieces to make it beautiful. Thank you for listening and obeying what God asked you to step out into this vocation to make women feel beautiful from the inside out. You've been a blessing.   So, I do think it has changed women. I have had women say I spend less money. I spend less time.   I feel more confident at work. I feel more confident like she said at church, you know, being in front of someone. So, yeah, I think it makes a measurable difference in people's lives.   If they apply it, you know, I think there are women who are one and done that come in, they just want to know what their colors are, and they walk out and you know, but even that does add something to your life, I think. So, yes, I do think it makes a difference. It's definitely personally made a difference in my own life.   Laura Dugger: (35:31 - 35:35) So, anything you'd want to elaborate on that how it's made a difference in your own life.   Carla Gasser: (35:36 - 38:10) I think I had gotten into kind of similarly to the testimonial I just read of someone of just, you know, not caring. You know, I had four kids at home. I was running everywhere.   I wanted what was comfortable. I wanted what was quick. And what happened was I had gotten into this really gray phase, not realizing that the gray was really reflecting how I was feeling on the inside.   And after I was, I went to a speaker's convention, because I'm also a speaker and Sherry actually did my colors. She was at this event. And so, I met her in person, and we have become great friends since I came home and I started changing it and I have three boys and a girl.   Who do you think noticed that I was changing before? It was my boys. And my one son said to me, “I love that you're wearing brighter colors.   It reminds me of when I was younger, that you always wore colors like that when I was little. Like I always remember my mom showing up and she was in and he goes, and you haven't done that in a long time. And I thought there's something more like we were talking before about the psychology.   I would also feel like it was a spiritual thing too, for me that I had kind of just settled in a lot of ways. And I think women think that they're hiding in bigger clothes or in drab colors because they don't want to be seen or they don't feel their worth or they have shame, they have regret, they have all these things. And I used to also when I would dress up and go places, have you ever had people say to you, why are you so dressed up?   Why are you wearing that? And it would make me shrink. It would make me feel awful.   Like I'm not trying to show you up. I'm not trying. I just, this is what I like to wear.   And I changed that total attitude around. And we would go out with the group of women. They're like, there you are, Carlo.   What are you wearing that for? And I said, you know what? I'm your fancy friend.   Call me your fancy friend. I'm going to dress up like your fancy friend. And when we go places, this is what I feel like.   And I said, and if you want to wear sweats, I don't care. That's what makes you comfortable. That makes you feel good about yourself.   But I feel like sometimes we dress for other women and other people before we dress for ourselves.   Laura Dugger: (38:11 - 39:13) Well, that's really good. And even how you mentioned there's a spiritual component. I think of Jesus teaching on so many object lessons and that he would use something external to talk about the internal spiritual condition.   And it reminds me of another guest, Jamie Erickson, who wrote the book on holy Hygge, just on that concept of our inner life will be reflected outwardly as well. And last piece, just with the psychology, I do remember one thing with the psychology of color, just that when somebody is in their best palette, that we naturally trust them more. And so, it's just unique, all the things that we're probably unaware of, but this really does matter.   Absolutely. And so then beyond just our clothing, can you share some more of your best tips? I'm thinking makeup and jewelry, colored print options, and just your general styling tips.   Carla Gasser: (39:14 - 43:53) I think one other demonstration that I do a lot, too, that I do with women is I think we undervalue the importance of accessories, that you could take a very simple outfit and change it up with accessories. And it's not buying more clothes. It's just taking things off, adding things.   And so, I went to a women's group here in town and I wore a basic jumpsuit. And I told them, this is how I would wear this jumpsuit if I was just running out and about. And I put tennis shoes on.   I put a simple necklace on, simple handbag, one out. And they're like, great. I said, okay, now I'm going to meet some friends for lunch.   Same jumpsuit. Put sandals on, put a little cardigan on, put a thicker necklace on. So, I was teaching them, you could take one outfit and style it three to four or five different ways just by accessories.   So, that's one tip. I would say don't neglect or overlook accessories. The other thing is, know what accessories work for your frame.   If you've ever seen a woman who's like 5'10", wearing a purse this big, it doesn't work. Likewise, someone who's 5'2", wearing one of those huge canvas tote bags, you've got to match your accessories to your frame. Right?   So, if you're, you know, 5'2 and under, your accessories need to be more delicate and smaller to fit you. Likewise, like someone was saying, but, you know, I love those statement necklaces that you wear. And I'm only five, you know, my mom is tiny.   She's only like 5'1", 5'2". And I'm like, what you can do if you want to achieve that effect is layering your necklaces. They're all tiny and delicate.   But if you put three of them together, you're giving the illusion of having something more, but it's not overpowering you, something like that. So, I think those two tips that women, you know, can overlook is accessorize. And one tip that Sherry gave that revolutionized it for me, and I didn't believe her when she first told me this tip, and yet she stands by it.   And now I stand by it. When we were growing up, my mom said that your shoes must match your purse or your handbag. That was a rule, right?   Sherry does not believe in that rule. She says your shoes must match your hair. So, I thought about that because I wear all different color shoes, but I had gone to a wedding that summer and I wore a red dress to the wedding.   It's one of my best colors, right? But that was the time when those nude shoes were really popular. You know what I'm talking about?   They were kind of patent and nude, and they were, you know, rounded toe, high heel. And I thought, well, I'm not going to the prom. So, I'm not going to buy red shoes, right?   I need to buy a neutral shoe to go with a red dress. So, I went back and looked at a picture of myself in that red dress standing next to my husband in those shoes. And it looked like I was floating.   I took that dress on, but again, I put black shoes on, and I took a picture of myself and I put them side by side because I needed proof. I need visual proof. Totally different look.   Because what she says is when you're wearing all one color, a lot of times one color and outfit, your shoes and your hair frame your outfit. And I can show you picture after picture where it works. And when I speak to women, I put those pictures up there and they're like, and I'm like, I know, isn't that crazy.   And she also says your handbag should match your hair, your everyday handbag. Nine times out of 10, I asked this question, if I gave you $500 and you could go buy a really nice designer handbag, what color would you buy? 75 to 80% of women say what?   Probably black, black, right? They all say black. And then I'll show them pictures of how much better a woman looks pulled together when her everyday handbag, that doesn't mean you can't wear a pink handbag or, you know, to spice up your outfit.   If it's part of your accessory look, that's not saying that, but your everyday standard handbag that you're going to invest money in, that's going to be with you for several years should match your hair.   Laura Dugger: (43:54 - 44:04) Wow. That is so interesting to me. And I think it would be fun to do pictures, the before and after, and just see that sometimes those visuals are helpful.   Carla Gasser: (44:04 - 44:12) They help a lot, but you'll start noticing it now or go online and start looking. I'll tell the women to do that and they'll, they'll be blown away.   Laura Dugger: (44:13 - 44:21) Well, and now that we do have all of this information, how can we begin to edit or curate our closet?   Carla Gasser: (44:23 - 47:24) So, when I do a closet edit, I do give them some homework to do before I get there. And I ask them to go through their closet and do, um, for three to four things. First thing is pull out anything that you're going to donate or consign.   Okay. If you haven't worn it in two years, if it's stained, if it's, you know, that might be a throwaway, but you're going to make those piles, give away, throw away, and then maybe consign if it's something really good. And, you know, this is also based on first having a color analysis.   Like I said before, if you don't have a color analysis, it's very hard for me to go into your closet. Okay. So, that's one thing you do next thing.   We pull up anything that is seasonal from your closet. If you're not wearing it now, because you live where I live and you're not wearing sleeveless or shorts or whatever, put that in a bin, put it away. The other thing is put away a trendy.   Okay. Skinny jeans were a thing, and everybody loved their skinny jeans. Do I think skinny jeans might come back?   They might, if they, if you still like them, if they still fit you, put them in a bin, put your trending kind of clothes, long cardigans aren't in right now. How many long cardigans do you have? You probably have five, you probably have six and you probably love them.   It's okay. I'm not telling you to throw them away, put them in a bin and we're going to store those someplace else. So, there are certain things that you could start doing.   The other thing that I think is very helpful is I line my closet up with my neutrals first, and then my colors, you know, white, black and gray and Navy are my neutrals. I lined those up. Then I start lining up my colors and my patterns.   So, I think that's a very helpful way because, you know, putting outfits together becomes a lot easier because I pick a neutral, I pick a pattern, I pick a color, you know, kind of like you're probably too young for animals where the kids had to match the tags. When we were little, it was like, we went to the store and there was a, you know, a clothing line called grant or animals. And like, you match the monkey with the monkey, the monkey had on the top, the tag was like a monkey and the tag in the bottom.   There you go. There's your clothes. So, I mean, there are systems.   I also love boutiques. And I'm noting that noticing this more about boutiques that are color coded. There's a boutique in my town that you walk in, and she's got all the beige and neutral colors here.   She is all black and white here. She has all her blues here. And wow is easy to shop when they do that for you.   And I think that's coming back. I'm seeing that more, like I said, in independently owned boutiques. I don't think you're going to find that as much.   But even I went into the loft the other day and they had their clothes kind of in a color. So, that I think helps too. That helps a lot.   Laura Dugger: (47:25 - 47:37) That's a great tip for organizing our closet. And is there any edit that you would want to make to our makeup bag or addition that you just think everybody should try?   Carla Gasser: (47:39 - 48:58) We work with a company that does lipstick and lip gloss by color code. And it's called Lipstick Boss Beauty. And I sell that as well.   And I think women underestimate the power of a lip. Now, because I'm so pale, I absolutely need it. You know what I mean?   But even for people who aren't pale, she sells them by color code. And I have samples with me, and I always have women try it on. And they are so surprised at how it brings the look together.   You know, I know a lot of women are intimidated by a lot of makeup, eye makeup, whatever. But I say if you put on a lip gloss, a good foundation and blush and mascara, you don't have to worry about the rest if you're not into it. If you're into it, great, go.   But I also said when you go to Sephora or Ulta or even your local drugstore that has a lot of good makeup that you probably can use, bring your colors with you. That will help you pick out a blush. That will help you pick out a lip color.   But yeah, I think women totally underestimate just a simple lip gloss, tinted lip gloss or lipstick. I think it really pulls things together.   Laura Dugger: (48:59 - 49:11) And I love, I love that idea and just all of your offerings. So, if anybody wants to give this a try, can you share more about the resources that you have available?   Carla Gasser: (49:12 - 51:51) Yeah, I would think that the best place I would send them to is my website, which is just my name, www.carla, with a C, Gasser, G-A-S-S-E-R. And on there, there's a page that has all of my services. And one of the things on there that I keep telling women to take advantage of, you could book a free 15-minute consultation with me.   I do that for everyone. If you just don't even know where to start, and you're like, I just want to learn more. I just want to know how I could do this.   Also, my first client ever was from Canada, virtually. When I first got, you know, she had followed me for my faith resources and all of that. And when she saw I got certified, she reached out to me, and I can do virtual appointments.   If you send in your photo to me, we have a whole system of plugging it in and working through it. And we put a whole presentation, I create a customized presentation for you, and I send it to you. But we talk like this, but you know, I take your photo and I put it into kind of capes like this, but they're digital.   And we see, and so yes, but I would start with looking at my page and then booking that free 15-minute consultation to just ask me, you know, where do I start? What do you offer? And everything's listed there.   So, I also, if you want to be part of my email list, you could sign up online on that same page and you get access to a free style personality quiz. Because style personality, we talked about it a little bit earlier that you don't have to dress like me. We have four style personalities that we kind of curate, but I created a quiz so that you can kind of answer these questions and figure out, oh, I lean more towards this.   And once we do that, then I can tell you more what places to shop because I'm not going to send someone who is more of a casual, a natural chic to a Chico's. That doesn't fit their style. They would probably go to J.   Joe, you know? So, it's kind of that kind of a thing. So, that's just a fun little freebie that I give away if you want to sign up.   And my email list, I usually, my newsletter goes out almost every Tuesday or Wednesday with different tips. I give you links to things. I give you examples.   I'm really good about showing you pictures of things. We talk about trends. We talk about all kinds of things. So, yeah. And that's just free to be part of my newsletter.   Laura Dugger: (51:52 - 52:11) That is incredible. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode, which you can find on your podcast platform. Or if you go to thesavvysauce.com under show notes, you can find all of the links for today's episode. And are you willing to share, what are those four? Did you say personality?   Carla Gasser: (52:12 - 53:39) Yes. One is called natural chic. The next one is called classic modern.   The third one is style fashionista. And the fourth one is creative original. So, I ask you a ton of questions based on like, what do you feel comfortable in or what fabrics you like?   And based on that, you add up, you know, kind of, and if you're mostly A's, you're this, if you're mostly B's, you're this, C's, D's. So, it just helps you. Because again, I think that is a missing piece for a lot of women.   They don't know what their style is. And so, they look at someone like, oh, I love that. But why doesn't that look good on me?   I go, well, does it feel like you? Well, if it doesn't feel like you, then that's why you're not comfortable in it. You know?   And like I said, you know, I like to push the envelope a little bit more. I am not going to be, you know, a classic modern. I am more of a style fashionista or creative original.   I mean, I found this, this is like an old, in a boutique in Italy of all places. If you see, it's kind of like got these raw edges because they took a man's old suit jacket, cut it, and then put all these pearls on it. I mean, you're not going to find that.   And not every person wants to wear something like crazy as that, but I love it. You know? So that's my personality.   But someone else is just like, I just love silk and linen and good cotton. And I like to feel comfortable. Great. I can recommend tons of clothes for you and tons of places to shop.   Laura Dugger: (53:40 - 53:43) I love that. Well, and I think that piece is so fun.   Carla Gasser: (53:43 - 53:44) Thank you.   Laura Dugger: (53:44 - 54:09) And it's so great to see how you dress everything to your personality and you reflect beauty inside and out. But Carl, I think you may already be aware we're called the Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Carla Gasser: (54:11 - 55:06) I would say my Savvy Sauce is allowing God to transform me from the inside out and make me beautiful. I love the clothes. I love the fashion and the colors.   I've talked to you about it for over an hour. I could keep talking about it. It is a passion of mine, but if there was a secret Savvy Sauce to that, it would be inviting God in to transform me and make me beautiful from the inside out, because there are a lot of beautiful people out there, right?   But if they're not reflecting God's beauty, then we're missing it. And when I want people attracted to me, it's so that I can share with them the hope that's within, not so I can tell them where to get the best shirt or wear the best color. I want to ultimately bring them the hope of Jesus.   That's why I do it. So, that's my Savvy Sauce.   Laura Dugger: (55:07 - 55:40) Well said, Carla. You are a beautiful woman with a beautiful combination of giftings. I just love that you're a Bible teacher and a color analysis or consultant.   And that's in addition to the many other roles that you hold. But practical chats really do help us to live intentionally. And you've done that for us today.   So, thank you for sharing your fascinating career with us. I love your expertise and I really enjoyed getting to host you. So, thank you for being my guest.   Carla Gasser: (55:40 - 56:05) And thanks for doing what you're doing. I love stuff like this. This is great.   And it's bringing women together. And like you said, it's giving them that practical knowledge that we all need and can look for. There's so many places that you can go to, and not all of that knowledge is uplifting or leading you in the right direction.   So, I'm thankful for people like you who do what you do as well. So, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (56:05 - 59:22) Thank you. Appreciate that. One more thing before you go.   Have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.   But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.   So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much.   He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news.   Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what he has done for us.   Romans 10 9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So, would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.   I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity.   In Jesus name we pray. Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.   You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called the Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned.   So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone. Say it out loud.   Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.   Luke 15:10 says, "in the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with.   You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.  

PRACTICAL Wisdom for Parenting Adult Children with Dr. Gary Chapman (Episode 291)   John 15:5 NIV ““I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.”   *Transcription Below*   Dr. Gary Chapman is an experienced and well-respected family counselor, and a well-known author having written more than forty books. He hosts a nationally syndicated radio program, A Love Language Minute, and a Saturday morning program, Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, that air on more than 400 stations.   The 5 Love Languages, one of Chapman's most popular titles, topped various bestseller charts for years. It has been published in more than 50 languages, sold more than 14 million copies and is currently on the New York Times best-seller list. Dr. Chapman has been directly involved in real-life family counseling for more than 40 years.   Dr. Chapman holds B.A. and M.A. degrees in anthropology from Wheaton College and Wake Forest University, respectively. He received his Ph.D. degree from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and has taken postgraduate work at the University of North Carolina and Duke University.   Dr. Chapman and his wife, Karolyn, have been married for more than 45 years and reside in Winston- Salem, N.C. The Chapmans have two grown children, Shelley and Derek.   5 Love Languages Website   Thank you to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank   Questions and Topics We Cover: Are there any other practical things we can be doing now, while our children are still in the home, that ideally sets us up for a healthy relationship once they launch out of our home?  For parents approaching the new season of parenting young adults, what are the best practices for navigating this transition? If we do find ourselves in a season where our adult child and maybe his/her family is living with us, what guidelines do you suggest to honor both parties?   Previous Episodes of the Savvy Sauce with Dr. Gary Chapman: 85 Five Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman 182 Things I Wish I'd Known Before My Child Became a Teenager with Dr. Gary Chapman 191 Friendships Heal Racial Divides with Dr. Clarence Shuler and Dr. Gary Chapman 220 Cultivating Healthy Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman   Related Articles: Family Discipleship Tools My 10 Favorite Parenting Books How Can I Enjoy My Kids More?   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*‍ ‍   Music: (0:00 - 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 2:04) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger. I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.   Dr. Gary Chapman is my amazing returning guest. I'm going to link to his other episodes on The Savvy Sauce, where we've covered a variety of topics, from the five love languages in marriage or in families, parenting teenagers, and just overall creating a loving home and family environment.   But today, we're going to actually focus on a later stage of life, parenting adult children. Whenever I get a chance to talk with Dr. Gary Chapman, he just oozes wisdom on every topic that we've covered, and I know you're going to feel the same way after concluding the message today. I've just noticed this theme that anytime I talk to somebody who's a few seasons ahead of me, they consistently said the same thing, that their hardest stage of parenting was parenting adult children.   And that shocked me, so I wanted to seek out the wisdom of somebody who's gone before us and bring in this expert who can give us wise counsel so that all of us can delight in parenting well and enjoying all of the seasons. Dr. Gary Chapman is going to do exactly that today.   Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Chapman.   Dr. Gary Chapman: (2:04 - 2:07) Well, thank you. I'm delighted to be with you again.   Laura Dugger: (2:07 - 2:40) Well, our main topic for today is going to be about parenting adult children, especially after completing your amazing resource. But I think it'd first be helpful to back up a little bit and just have you share how we can be proactive now while our children are still in the home. If we're hoping to have wonderful relationships when we launch our children, when they're grown adults.   So, can you just start off by sharing the dangers of both under-parenting and over-parenting?   Dr. Gary Chapman: (2:41 - 7:35) Well, I think, first of all, as parents, we have to keep in mind we have 18 years. Because in our culture at 18, they're typically going to college, get a job or join the military. So, we have to be thinking independence.   That is doing everything we can to help them to be able to take care of themselves. And when we're not around. So, first of all, I think it means that we need to make sure we are expressing love to them in a way that's meaningful to them.   That our children feel loved. I've often said to parents, the question is not, do you love your children? The question is, do your children feel loved?   And that's where the five love languages of children and the five-love language of teenagers has helped so many parents realize what makes one child feel loved doesn't make another child feel loved. So, you have to discover their love language and on a regular basis be speaking that love language to them. I think another factor is that I would encourage parents, especially if they're in the teenage years or 10 and up, have maybe once a month have breakfast with one child.   Take them out to breakfast, just one child, so that you can talk about whatever they want to talk about. And you can talk about whatever you want to talk about. But if they know that that's a part of life and that's where they can ask you questions when nobody's around, and you can have conversations with them.   I just found that with my own kids. That was great. And they say to me, they look back on that as a very positive experience, is having that individual time with me.   Of course, we only had two children. Now, if you have five children, and I only did it once a month, but five once a month would be every week, I guess. But it's just an idea.   But I think if they feel loved, and they feel like that we're a safe place where they can talk about and ask questions about things, and we can talk openly, that's a big part of getting them ready. The other thing that I've suggested to couples is, what if you make a list? And if your children are 10 or up, let them help you make a list of all the things they would like to know how to do by the time they're 18.   And some of them may say, well, I'd like to learn how to cook, or I'd like to learn how to boil eggs. Or I might like to learn how to take a tire off of my car, put it back on, put the spare on. Amazing, you know, what they might want to do.   And that may vary with each child. But you ought to think in terms of what would you like for them to be able to do. And then you want to be working on those things while they're still with you.   If you want them to be able to make up their own bed, you can start that at five years old. You know, by the time they get to be 18, they got it down. If you don't want them to know how to make up a bed, then they're going to go to college and never make up a bed. And they're going to get married and never make up a bed.   And if they marry somebody that thinks a bed ought to be made up, then they got a conflict. So, it can be little things like that.   But I do think that for most parents, they would hope that the children will learn a little bit about cooking. You know, because we have to eat. And it's an advantage.   Anybody that gets married is happy if they marry somebody that knows how to cook. Whether it's the husband or the wife. So, I think that's a huge issue.   But keeping the flow of communication open with the children so that they feel like they're safe with you. That they can communicate with you. That is huge.   And I'll be very honest; there are a lot of parents that don't do that. They're so involved in their work and in other activities that they don't really talk with their kids very much. You know, they might watch a ball game together or something, but they don't really talk about life.   And consequently, when the kids go off and they don't feel a real attachment to you, they're far more out there on their own now. And they're likely going to have more problems than if they had a close connection with you. Because if they have a close connection, even in college, they'll ask you questions.   They'll communicate with you. And communication is the lifeblood of relationship. So, anything you can do to foster that. Wonderful.   Laura Dugger: (7:37 - 8:03) So great. I love those practical tips for what we can be doing now. And I'm just curious, with all of your travels and speaking around the world, and throughout the decades, just seeing changes, do you have any caution for parents of what to avoid or even what to focus on currently to set them up well for their relationship in the future with their adult child?   Dr. Gary Chapman: (8:04 - 10:42) I think one is talking to them about what they think they might like to do when they grow up. Having those kinds of conversations. And what that might look like.   Because our daughter, for example, when she was eight years old, said to us, “When I grow up, I'm going to be a doctor.” And we said, “Well, honey, if that's what God wants, then that would be fine.” But in high school, she took four years of Latin.   Three years of chemistry in high school. She was serious. And so, if they say they want to be something, then you have to help them think about what kind of requirements would that be to do what you're thinking about doing.   And another thing would be to, in high school, let them have conversations with somebody that you might know in your church or your circle that does that. If they think they'd like to be a businessperson, for example, or sell cars, or run a business, or try to have a conversation. And most adults who are in a business or who are doing anything, they'd be happy to talk to a teenager that thinks they'd like to do this.   And that person can give them great advice in terms of what you might be doing now in high school and what you might do if you go to college and all that sort of thing. So, I think because vocation is a huge part of life. And I think the other thing, of course, is we need to be sharing our faith.   If we're Christians, we need to be sharing our faith with them. And to me, that means things like the very beginning, as early as you can start it, having a devotional time for the whole family every night. And what my wife and I did when they're just all the way along, one of us would go to the bed with them when we put them to bed and get on our knees beside the bed and pray with them.   And if they get older, then they start praying. But when they see when we teach them our faith, and of course, having them involved in a church and all that sort of thing is so very helpful to kids. And in the teenage years, for them to have a place to go and do things with other Christian kids.   Again, you know, the church can't raise kids. That's our responsibility. But the church can be a real source of help with our children, where they can interface and have other people that are teaching them things about God and about life.   So, all of that, I think, is important.   Laura Dugger: (10:43 - 11:22) I love that. I'm hearing themes of open communication both ways, where we're sharing and imparting and discipling, but they're also expressing their wants or needs or desires. And I think also a theme of purpose, instilling purpose in them, which gives a great vision for long term.   But now let's speak to parents who are approaching this new season of maybe their teenager turning 18 or moving out. And now the parents are finding themselves transitioning to parenting young adults. So, what are the best practices for navigating this transitional season?   Dr. Gary Chapman: (11:23 - 15:48) Well, that's why I wrote this book. Because a lot of parents' struggle. And some over parent, you know, after they moved out, they over parent.   They want to keep talking with them every single day and tell them what they ought to be doing and all that kind of stuff. And the child feels like, you know, I can do some things on my own, you know. And then some are under parent.   They just, if they go to college, they go to college. They might talk to them once a week or something, you know. So, I think we have to just think in terms of what feels good for the child, you know.   Because you to call them when you don't know their schedule, you probably have a hard time. Far better to ask them, how would you like to talk for us to talk? And when would be a good time in your schedule that you could call us, you know.   So, I think working out some things about how much contact we're going to have because they want a sense of freedom. And they should have. And we've been training them for independence.   So, but we also want to keep in contact with them. We want to, you know, have some ongoing time with them. And depending on now many times today, they're living at home while they go to college.   So, you have an extended opportunity. To have an influence on their lives. But that's where you have to talk about, now what's our pattern going to be?   Because you're going off to college, but you're going to be coming home every night to be here. And we're happy about that, you know. If that's what you want to do.   Obviously it's saving money for the parents because they don't have to pay for a dorm room. So, but we talk about, you know, can we agree on kind of a bedtime? Because if you're out at one o'clock, you know, I have a hard time sleeping.   Because you just, you know, I think, wonder what's happened to them, you know. So, could we have a kind of a set time that you shoot to be home? And if you realize there's something turned up, you would call me.   You call one of us and say, you know, I know I normally get home at whatever time, but right now this is what's happened. So, I need to do this and all. Okay, honey, okay.   That's fine. You don't want to over control them. But if you're going to be home, you have to think about yourself as well as them.   Because you've got a life to live. Your life has to go on while they're developing their new lifestyle. So, I think conversations again, it's really important at that stage of life.   And keeping in contact but not over controlling them. And I'd say make suggestions rather than like giving your advice. You know, just to say, you know, you ought to do this.   Or maybe now they're looking for a job, you know. And you say, well, you ought to get that, you ought to get that resume sent in today if you want to get a job. And now you're putting pressure on them, you know.   But you could say just as easily, you know, one suggestion that I'd suggest that you think about is maybe getting in your application as soon as possible. Because probably the sooner you get it in, the more likely you might, you know, be able to get the job. So rather than telling them what they need to do, make suggestions rather than demands.   Because again, we want to foster independence. We don't want to control their lives. We want them to be free to make decisions.   But if they ask advice, it's fine. Give them advice if they ask advice. If they don't, it's okay to give them a suggestion.   But give it as a suggestion, not as something, well, you ought to do this, you know. So, we don't want to over-control them. Otherwise, we're really going to push them away.   No young person wants to be over-controlled by their parents. And yet, they need our input. And if we have a positive relationship, they'll probably ask us for our input, you know. It's a good relationship.   Laura Dugger: (15:50 - 17:50) I think that really requires humility on both sides. And that's great and worthwhile to cultivate that in any phase of life. ‍ ‍   And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need. Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist.   That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched. Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty.   This ministry reaches millions of people every year and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank.   To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.   Also, Dr. Chapman, have you noticed any universal challenges or frustrations from both sides, from adult children and the parents who have raised them just in that phase of life, maybe things that we can be prepared for?   Dr. Gary Chapman: (17:50 - 23:36) Yeah. Well, I think one thing is that there are a lot of young adults who feel like their parents are trying to control their lives and that's not a positive thing. I think there are a lot of parents that are very disturbed over the decisions their young adult children are making.   And this is hard. I can understand that. It's hard.   When you see them, for example, telling you, I've decided not to go to church this semester or I've decided, I don't think I want to go to church anymore. Well, you come down hard on them and say, now, da-da-da, da-da-da, da-da-da. You're just pushing them away.   Far better to ask questions. That's interesting, honey. What leads you to say that?   And then just keep asking questions. Keep asking questions. And then I think we have to do what God does.   We have to give them freedom. And we can honestly say, after we've listened to them and they tell us why, we can say, well, you know, it's your decision, honey. I mean, you're an adult now and it's your decision.   You know that. I'm not real happy about it, but it's your life. And, you know, again, whatever kind of relationship you've had with them spiritually and how you shared with them spiritually is going to have an impact here.   But I think parents have a hard time when their children make decisions that hurt them. You know whether it's moral decisions or whether it's spiritual decisions or whatever the decision. But what we don't want to do is cut them off.   Because if we say, “Well, if that's the lifestyle you're going to live, I don't want you in my house anymore.” And there are parents that have said those kinds of things. Now you've lost all opportunity to have a positive influence on them. And it was your choice.   Now, if they break off from you, and this happens a lot too, where a parent, a child is deciding a lifestyle that they know their parents don't like. And the parents have come down on them really hard.   And every time they get together, they're preaching them a sermon. And the adult child says, well, I'm just not going to have contact with you. Every time I come home, you're on my case.   I'm not going to answer your phone. And I'm not going to answer your text. Well, again, we can't keep them from doing that.   But what we want to do is to try to keep the relationship open and not demanding things of them so that they won't cut us off. Because if they cut us off or we cut them off, we've lost opportunity to have an impact on their lives.   So even if we disagree with them, and as I said, “God gives his children freedom. If you want to disobey God, you can. You'll suffer the consequences, but you can.” And we have to give them the same freedom.   And we can say things like, honey, it hurts me that you're choosing to do that. But I want you to know that I love you. And I will love you no matter what.   And I will pray for you. I love you. And if you ever want to talk further about this, I'd be happy to talk further with you.   But I love you, even though I disagree, obviously, with what you're choosing. But that kind of approach is far healthier. And chances are, listen, the prodigal son's father didn't go out there trying to bring him back.   He waited till God brought his son to the pig pen. And if they're making poor decisions, they're going to end up in the pig pen. But now, they've got a picture in their mind of a parent who loved them.   And they do what the prodigal son did. I'd be better off working on the farm at home than out here in the pig pen. And they come home.   And, you know, they come home often with regret. And then we receive them back. And now we're reunited.   Now we've got another chance here. But I think as parents, you know, we're so concerned. And I understand that.   And we should be concerned. And we want them to make wise decisions and make lifestyle choices that we know are healthy and we know are right. And it breaks our heart when they're not.   But because out of our pain, we often make poor decisions ourselves. You know, we retreat them in a way that's negative and condemning and demanding. And so, they walk away.   Far better to express the truth about how you feel. They already know they're hurting you. But you express it to them.   But you let them know I love you and I will always love you no matter what you do. Now you've kept the door open.   Laura Dugger: (23:38 - 24:01) And I think the fruit of the spirit that really stands out in that response is gentleness and that that would go a long way. But also, if we are at that phase of parenting adult children, a lot of times around that time comes grandparenting as well. So, do you have any wise counsel for grandparents?   Dr. Gary Chapman: (24:02 - 27:21) Yeah, I would say. And again, a lot depends on how close you are physically. If you live in North Carolina where I live and your grandkids live in Portland, Oregon, that's one thing, you know.   But if you live in the same town as a grandparent, you might be keeping them after school when they get out of school. You know, the kids, you were keeping them. Now they're, you know, of course, they grow up.   But I think grandparents can play a key role in the lives of children. And the earlier it starts, the better. And even if they do live far away, you can still have contact.   Now we can do FaceTime. We can see them. They can see us.   You know, you can do that when they're four years old or three years old. So, I think having that kind of contact if they live away from you is really, really good. And you can even play games, you know, online with them at different stages and all.   So, the more you do when they're little to build a bond between them, the more likely they are when they get older to keep in contact with you. For example, my granddaughter, who is 25 now, she calls her grandmother, my wife, she calls her every Sunday afternoon at three o'clock. And if she, if something in her work schedule or whatever doesn't allow it, she'll send her a text and say, Grandma, I can't call you at three today, but I'm going to call you at five because of da-da-da-da-da.   That's absolutely wonderful, you know. And so, I think we build that relationship when they're young and chances are as grandparents, then we will have a positive contact with them as they grow up in the future. And again, we're not, we have to remember as grandparents, two things.   Number one, I'm not the parent. The parents are the ones who set the rules. But I am a grandparent.   And so, when they're at my house, I'm not going to violate the parent's rules. Whatever the rules are of the parents, that's okay. But we're going to do some things, you know, when we're together that maybe your parents don't do with you.   Maybe they don't take walks. Maybe they don't take you to the park. Again, depending on the age, you know.   But if you live close as they grow up, you try to stay involved in their activities. If they're into sports or if they're in a play at school, as grandparents, you try to go to those things, you know, which communicates to them, man, they care about me. So, the more you can be involved in their lives when they're young, the better the chances are that you will have a positive relationship with them when they get to be adults.   And again, I think grandparents can have a tremendous impact on their grandchildren.   Laura Dugger: (27:22 - 28:34) I completely agree and it's fascinating sometimes to see the same lesson that we're trying to teach as parents. Sometimes it just takes one grandparent to reiterate that or to share it and it clicks for our kids. So, there is a supernatural, even anointing, it seems, on that relationship.   Do you love The Savvy Sauce? Do you gain anything when you listen? Did you know that the two ways we earn money to keep this podcast live is through generous contributions from listeners?   And from our paying sponsors? That means we can promote your business and you're still supporting The Savvy Sauce. It's a win-win.   Please email us today at info at the SavvySauce.com to inquire about pricing for sponsoring each episode. Thank you for your consideration.   Is there also any research that you've come across for factors that set adult children up well to be healthy in their relationships and independent from relying on their parents and just well-adjusted overall?   Dr. Gary Chapman: (28:35 - 32:49) You know, I don't know specific research percentages and that sort of thing, but I do know that there's an awful lot of young adults today that are not mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally healthy. And there's a lot of reasons for that because many young adults have grown up in homes where their parents divorced and that's had a tremendous impact on them. And loneliness is a pandemic on college campuses today all over the country where the students feel isolated.   They don't have not made friends at the university and they don't know how to have relationships. Many times, they've been on the cell phone and online. Their whole life is connected to the screen and they don't know, they don't have social skills.   They don't know how to have conversations. So, which is really sad. And sometimes grandparents can step in when parents maybe, you know, are for whatever reason not stepping in.   Sometimes, of course, one of the parents has died. Sometimes one of the parents has problems that limit what they can do. And grandparents can step in and be an adult figure who relates to this young adult and has an open door at their house.   You can always come to grandma's, you know, that kind of thing. So, it's a troubled, it's a troubled world for young adults today. And many times, they have a hard time getting a job and they move back home with their parents.   And, and because many of them can't afford an apartment. So, if they get a job, you know, and they can come back home and live with the parents, that's going to help them and make it possible for them to survive. And so, as parents, even though, you know, we all think of a time that we're going to have an empty nest, when they come back, see it as another opportunity just to have a positive impact on them.   But I would suggest that when they move back in that situation, you have conversations from the very beginning on how can we organize this now because you're an adult now. It's not like you're a child. But how can we organize it so that it's good for everybody and so that, you know, you feel good about it, we feel good about it.   Now, we're not going to charge you rent because we know that's, you know, but you are going to be back in the family now. So, let's think in terms of like, you know, what kind of chores could you do that would be helpful to us? And what can we do that would be helpful to you?   And let's talk about schedules and, you know, just talk about whatever you can think that you'd like to discuss so that each of you have an idea of how this is going to work rather than nobody talking about it, but the parents have ideas of what it ought to be like, but the adult child has ideas of what it ought to be like and they're different. And so, you end up in conflict with each other. Far better to have open conversations to start with .   And we can change it if we need to. We can talk about it again in two months and see if it's working or not working. But this is also teaching them a skill on how to relate to people because all of life they're going to be relating to people.   So, that can be a positive thing and not a negative thing. But, again, sometimes this becomes real contentious because the parents pictured one thing, the young adult pictures another thing, and it becomes an adversarial kind of situation.   Laura Dugger: (32:51 - 33:43) Well, and you even address that in your book. You share some guidelines for both parties. And so, I'll list these off.   Feel free to elaborate if there are any that you want to say more about. But you recommend clarifying those expectations and maintaining open communication, balancing freedom and responsibility, honoring your moral values I think you give, for instance, if you're a Christian and your adult child does not want to go to church or have their children go to church, how to navigate that, considering your own physical and mental health, setting time limits and goals, being pleasant and firm, and then you also talk about how to deal with anger. So, is there anything you'd want to elaborate on that?   Dr. Gary Chapman: (33:43 - 37:16) I think all of those things are important. You know, just remember now, as parents, it is your house and your moral values, you know, you want to have them respect that. For example, if you do not do alcohol at all, you need to say to them, now honey, you know that we don't drink alcohol if you think they do.   So, don't bring alcohol in the home. Okay? Can we just agree on that?   If you drink a beer, that's you, somewhere else, but don't do it here because we just don't like that. You know, that's fine. It's your house.   They're adults. So, and they'll respect that. They'll respect that.   So, I think, you know, and again, you just say, we're not going to make you go to church because you're an adult. That's your decision. If you would like to go to church, you know, there is a young adult group at our church that I think you might fit into and you might feel good about.   You know, you can try it out and see what you think. Or if you have a church that doesn't offer that, you can say, you know, I don't think our church has a young adult group, but there is a church in town that I understand has a really good young adult group. So, you might want to visit that church and kind of plug into that and see what you think.   You know, so we're not, again, demanding that they, you know, go to our church with us every Sunday, but we are trying to help them and give them some possibilities, you know, what they might do. So, all those things are really important. And I think setting some limits and goals also to say, how long do you think it might be before, I know you want to, I know you want to be independent.   Someday you may want to get married. I don't know, but how long do you think it might take before you would, you know, be able to, you know, find your own place or whatever? It doesn't matter to us, but I'm just thinking out loud with you so we can all kind of have some goals and things that we can have in the back of our minds.   We can change them later if we want to but talking to those kinds of things like that is helpful because both of you then have a framework in which to, you know, and maybe they're coming back. Maybe they drop out of college and they're back home because they don't have a job. They don't have anywhere to go.   And so to talk about, you know, maybe what could be done while you are here that might prepare you for a job, you know, and let them share the kind of job they might have an interest in and then see if there's a local technical school that's teaching, you know, people how to do that particular thing, you know, find out about it and say, well, you know, this course is available and we would be willing to pay for it if you'd be interested in doing that because if you have an interest, I understand it's a really good school and you're far more likely to get a job if you've had the training that they give over there, you know. So it may just be a year-long thing for, you know, training just one year, but helping them if they're struggling socially or relationally, mentally, then try to find whatever helps available in the community that they might plug into that could help them move toward being independent.   Laura Dugger: (37:16 - 37:38) I love that. Reaching maturity, independence, and then also you really did focus on the parents, the importance of them taking care of themselves and their marital relationship because that will change the dynamic if an adult child moves back in or if they move back in with their kids.   Dr. Gary Chapman: (37:38 - 38:59) Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's very different and I think as the parents, we don't want to spend time with each other silent, I mean, personally arguing with each other, you know, I just don't think we ought to do this now, you know.   Listen, listen, we're a team and this is our child. So, let's talk about what we're going to do. If we don't do it, what are we going to do?   We're going to let them live on the street. We're going to send them to the rescue mission. What are our options, you know, and what is the Christian thing to do?   So yeah, we likely will have different ideas. Husbands and wives will have different ideas of what we ought to do in those kinds of situations, but let's respect each other's ideas. Let's listen and try to see the world through their eyes and say, okay, I can see what you're saying.   I can see how that makes sense. And then, okay, how can we solve the problem? Because we want to be a team.   We want to keep our marriage growing. We don't want this to be a divisive thing in our marriage because we hope down the road they're going to be on their own, but we want our marriage to be good now and then, you know.   Laura Dugger: (39:00 - 39:12) So, to sum up this time together, do you have any additional words of encouragement or helpful do's and don'ts as we navigate this new part of parenting?   Dr. Gary Chapman: (39:14 - 42:07) I think one thing I would say to Christian parents is pray. The Bible says if you lack wisdom, ask God for wisdom. And all of us need wisdom.   And so, you just say, God, you know the situation, you know where we are, and we need your wisdom. You know we have our thoughts and our ideas, but what we really want to do is what is best in this situation for our child and for us. And we know that you can give us wisdom.   And the second thing I would say is read a book such as the one we're discussing. Because we're dealing with many common things in this. Read a book together about it.   And then, also talk to other parents maybe in your church, who have adult children who are moving home or whatever the situation is. And see how they're handling it. Because, you know, they may have found some things and discovered some things that would be very helpful to you.   Sometimes parents want to hide what's going on, especially if their child is making decisions and living a lifestyle that they don't want them to be living. They don't want to tell their friends about it. Because they think it puts them down as parents, that we failed, you know.   And I like to say to those parents, because many times here's what the parents say to me when their child is making a lifestyle decision that's not biblical. They'll say, Dr. Chapman, what did we do wrong? And I say, well, ask God if you did anything wrong.   God will tell you. And if you did, you can apologize. You can confess it to God.   You can apologize to your adult child. But let me remind you of this. God's first two children went wrong, and they had a perfect father.   So don't blame yourself for the decisions your adult children are making. Yes, none of us are perfect. And maybe you made some real bad decisions.   Then apologize to your adult child. But don't just assume that you are responsible for what they're doing. God makes his children free.   And as you know, a lot of God's children make poor decisions. God still loves them. And if they repent, God will forgive them.   But they suffer the consequences. Anytime we violate God's plans, we have to suffer. There are consequences.   So, yeah, those are just some of the things I would say to parents. But I do think that they'll find this book to be very helpful. It's very practical.   And I think they'll find it to be very helpful.   Laura Dugger: (42:08 - 42:24) Your teaching is always full of wisdom, full of practicality. And this isn't the only topic that you've written about or spoken about. And so where would you like to direct us after this chat so that we can learn more from all of your teaching?   Dr. Gary Chapman: (42:25 - 42:59) I would say go to the website 5lovelanguages.com. The number 5 and lovelanguages.com. And there you will find resources, all my books and so forth. You can receive a weekly email from me if you like.   And you can take a quiz on the love languages and other things. Just a lot of help at that website. My publisher actually runs that website for me.   But it's very, very helpful. So, you know, that's where I would encourage them to go.   Laura Dugger: (43:00 - 43:19) Wonderful. We'll add that link in the show notes for today's episode. And Dr. Chapman, you've been a repeat guest. So, you're familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Dr. Gary Chapman: (43:22 - 44:41) I would say recognize the truth of what Jesus said as recorded in Matthew chapter 15, and verse 5. I think I'm right about that. Where he said, “I'm the vine. You're the branches. You stay connected to me. You bear fruit. Without me, you can do nothing.”   So just recognize your dependence on God. We may know a lot about a few things, but there's a whole bunch of stuff we don't know much about.   So just realize if you stay connected to God, have a daily quiet time with God in which you sit down and read a chapter in the Bible and ask God to speak to you. Or read a devotional book every morning with Scripture. You stay connected closely to God; you're going to bear fruit.   And tell God, without you, Lord, I can't do anything worthwhile. We won't. We can't do anything.‍ ‍   He gives us breath. We could be gone tomorrow. I can't do it without you.   I need your help. I need your wisdom. So, you stay connected closely to God.   You're going to not only survive, you're going to thrive.   Laura Dugger: (44:42 - 45:13) Well said. And it's great to witness someone who has been abiding in Christ and we're getting to enjoy that sweet fruit from the overflow of even your lifestyle and your guidance and your wisdom, Dr. Chapman. So, it's always such a joy to get to talk to you.   And I think my heart rate slows down every time we're having a conversation. You're so calm and peaceful. And I just really am grateful for you and appreciate you.   So, thank you for being my guest.   Dr. Gary Chapman: (45:14 - 45:25) Well, thank you. I always enjoy chatting with you. And thanks for what you're doing.   Because, you know, we take whatever we've got and try to help other people. And you're doing that. So, keep up the good work.   Laura Dugger: (45:25 - 48:42) Thank you. One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners. But Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.   So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior. But God loved us so much He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.   This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today, right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You.   Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer you are declaring Him for me so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him.   And at this podcast, we're called the Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?   First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible.   The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.   Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ.   We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15 10 says, In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.   The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved, and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Embracing a Robust Life: Charlotte Mason Approach with Nicole Williams, Special Patreon Release   Psalm 24:1 (NIV) The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;   *Transcription Below*   Questions and Topics We Discuss: Will you teach us what is meant by Charlotte's quote, "Education is the science of relations?" What are the unexpected benefits of living a life out of doors and delighting in nature, almost regardless of weather? What potential do you see in morning time, afternoons, and evenings?   Nicole Williams home educated her three children using Charlotte Mason's principles and methods for 18 years. She also taught four of her adopted siblings from middle school through graduation. Watching the feast of life-giving ideas restore her sibling's innate love of learning inspired her to dig deeper into Mason's philosophy of education and then to share her experiences with others. She does that now by co-hosting the podcast A Delectable Education, writing for SabbathMoodHomeschool.com, and teaching workshops. She is also the author of Living Science Study Guides, where she helps families and schools implement Charlotte Mason's natural way of teaching science. Nicole enjoys working in her garden, collecting living books, and hiking.   A Delectable Education Podcast Sabbath Mood Website   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:08)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:54) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.   Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at Chick-fil-A.com forward slash East Peoria.   If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.   This is part two of our Charlotte Mason-inspired miniseries. Emily Kaiser was the first guest to lay the foundation, and Nicole Williams is going to follow up today with more practical ideas for how we can implement this method into our own family lives, regardless of our schooling option. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Nicole.   Nicole Williams: (1:55 - 1:57) Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.   Laura Dugger: (1:57 - 2:04) Well, can you just start us off by sharing a little bit more about your own faith and educational background?   Nicole Williams: (2:06 - 5:28) Yes, I was not raised in a Christian home actually. And neither was my husband. In fact, we had the funniest conversation recently where we were talking about him going to church when he was a kid.   And I said, well, that was really nice of your parents to see value in that. He said, no, they were just trying to get us out of the house and make us into better kids. But they didn't go with them. So, neither one of us were Christians. And then both of us became believers before we got married. And it has been so fun to watch our children grow up as believers or in a believing home, that that was the atmosphere and how that differed from him and I and our trust in the Lord.   We, you know, both of us really knew he was there, but had no knowledge of him. And so that was really fun to see the difference there. We started homeschooling.   Really, I would say it was really based on fear. We wanted to protect our kids. And that was pretty much the underlying motivation.   And then I had fear of doing it. Can I possibly do this? And when my oldest child, who's four years older than the next one, I have three, when he was just about to start kindergarten, I went by myself and toured a local private school.   And my husband was so funny. He's like, honey, I know you can do this. Give it a try.   And I just am so grateful that I have his support that I always have. I know that that is not the story for a lot of people, that their husbands don't necessarily see the value and what they're trying to do. And so, I've always really appreciated that.   But I went to school and we moved and we moved and I transferred college and transferred college. And then I was pregnant and I went in and said, “What am I close to? How can I just finish this?   And I ended up with a math and science degree, which wasn't really what I was going for. I was really interested in biology. But it's funny how that led to this, that that wasn't really where I was headed.   But then I ended up in the science field. But I didn't learn about Charlotte Mason until my oldest was in third grade. Well, actually, he was just about to start the third grade.   And the box curriculum that I was using came in the mail. And I learned about Charlotte Mason and just all of a sudden that didn't suit anymore. It just fell flat.   This big idea that I was learning about. But at the same time, my mom and dad had had by then adopted nine children. They had two biological children.   And they asked me to homeschool their last three who were in fifth, sixth and seventh grade. So, I told her, well, I'm going to do this new thing. I don't understand what it is.   So, if you're okay with that, then I'll do it. And I think it actually turned out to be a huge blessing to me. And then my two little girls started school a couple years later.   And so, they were homeschooled using Charlotte Mason's methods all the way through school. And my youngest is going to graduate in May.   Laura Dugger: (5:29 - 6:02) Oh, my goodness. That's incredible. You are on the other side; you're going to have so much value to add to each of us who are in the thick of it.   Regardless of our choice of how to school. And in case anyone has missed the recent Savvy Sauce episode with your podcast co-host Emily Kaiser, that's where we laid the foundation for this philosophy. But now to build on that foundation, will you teach us what is meant by Charlotte's quote, education is the science of relations?   Nicole Williams: (6:03 - 10:34) Absolutely. When we give a child, Charlotte Mason called it the broad beast. It's just all these subjects that sometimes in the regular world we think of as extracurricular.   So, she didn't just have history. She wanted them to be learning the history of their own country, the history of their neighboring country, and ancient history all at the same time. They started the ancient history in fifth grade, but they continued this on all the way through.   In science, they were always learning biology, chemistry, physics, and earth science all the way through school, all the way through high school. And how many of us really got that? We usually had to take biology, maybe chemistry, and historic.   That was maxing out our requirements. She wanted them to have this all the way through (Art, art history, music, music history, singing, and folk songs).   There's just all of this stuff. She suggested that when we're giving them this broad beast, we're allowing them to have natural relations with a vast number of things and thought. She said that thought breeds thought.   Children familiar with great thoughts take as naturally to thinking for themselves as the well-nourished body takes to growing. We must bear in mind that growth, intellectual, moral, spiritual, is the sole end of education. And just stopping right there with an aside that how many people, much less children, do we know who can think about the major issues that we're faced with, the major issues in the church, in our country?   It is something that I feel like this whole question and answer, can you pass the test? Can you tell me what I want you to tell me? That is not serving our children and our culture and our country very well.   So, what we don't realize is how interconnected all of the pieces of this kind of a curriculum that she wants us to have this broad feast are. Then Mrs. Wicks, she's somebody who often wrote in kind of a magazine of sorts that went out to the parents of Charlotte Mason's curriculum users. And she said, when we remember that knowledge is truth, we know at once that no part of truth can be omitted without wrecking the whole.   Scripture, history, geography, botany and all the others are actually different facets of the same thing. And the longer we work from these wonderful programs, she means like the assigned to work that Charlotte Mason gave, the more we realize how well balanced they are, how satisfying to the hungry mind, how the subject is dovetail, how difficult it is to teach history only in history time, like the time of day, the lesson, how it will flow over into geography, literature or even into such unexpected channels as arithmetic or botany. So, the idea of the science of relations is actually the culmination of several things. There is this wealth of ideas presented to the child for them to think about.   And then they do their own work of their education, meaning that when we ask them to narrate back about a subject, they're telling us what they got out of it. But they're also kind of telling us how that relates to something else they know. So, these things are tying together.   So that is explained through something Charlotte Mason said she was telling of the small English boy of nine who lived in Japan. And he remarked to his mom, Isn't it fun, mother? All of these things, everything seems to fit into something else.   But Charlotte Mason pointed out the boy had not found out the whole secret. Everything fitted into something within himself. And so, the science of relations is talking about how everything fits into each other.   But we aren't doing it for the student. We're not creating unit studies where we say, oh, this is related to this and it's related to that. So, I'm going to pull those all together for the student.   We are letting those connections happen within themselves. And that helps memory. It helps understanding. It creates a full life.   It creates a person who knows about a lot of things and can relate to a lot of things and talk to a lot of people about whatever that person is interested in.   Laura Dugger: (10:35 - 11:02) And as you're describing this, this sounds so appealing. And like you said, it's a very robust philosophy. And yet I've heard someone say that Charlotte Mason's load was light.   Her burden was light. So, when you explain teaching your children all of these parts in homeschooling, were the lessons short enough that this did not feel overwhelming?   Nicole Williams: (11:03 - 13:16) It really is. And what we find is any time I'm doing a subject and it's too hard for the child, it's too hard for me to get through in the lesson time that she specified, it's too hard for us to understand what we're doing. Usually what I find is that we're doing it wrong.   She gave such bite sized pieces. Like, for instance, chemistry. When I am working out the science study guides that I write, I try to assign the same amount of work that she assigned.   And I'm using different books because I'm trying to use books that are more up to date with the information provided. But I still want them to have the same quality of a living book. But I will even count the words on a page and figure out, OK, if she is assigning six pages a day, there's this many words on a page.   How does that equate to what I'm assigning? What I often find is that a lesson that will be 30 or 40 minutes long, there will be 10 or 15 minutes worth of reading. And the other 15 minutes is allowing time for narrating or discussing the topic.   So sometimes we try to cram so much into our day or into our lesson times that she actually really felt like we should keep it small. These bite size amounts every day or every week. And then our mind is processing that information and working with it. Some people have done comparisons of what their kids get out of something if they read through a book fast or if they read through it slow. And so much more is gained from reading through it slow, having a time of narration, a time of discussion or using that to write an essay, say, or something like that. So, yeah, it seems like a burden because there's so many things.   But if we get in the habit of doing what she specified, it actually is light. And that switching subjects lightens it, too, because maybe you're doing a math lesson and it's hard and we're challenging ourselves and we're trying to figure out this puzzle. And then the next thing we do is sing a folk song.   You know, it just changes things up and makes us ready for maybe a history lesson after that.   Laura Dugger: (13:17 - 13:29) That's so helpful. And then getting really nitty gritty. Approximately how long would this be for an elementary age student, a junior high student and high schooler?   Nicole Williams: (13:29 - 15:24) Yeah. So, we always hear of Charlotte Mason, her short lessons people talk about. And in form one, which is the grades one through three in those first three years, they had lessons that were between 10 and 20 minutes.   Even their math lesson was only 20 minutes. And the whole point was she was trying to teach them to focus with all their might during that time. So, if we're going to read about history or a history tale is what they would have read at that time.   She wanted them to focus and listen and be able to narrate at the end of that. And if any of us have tried that, it's hard work. So, she was starting with these small amounts.   Then by the time they're in form two. So that's fourth, fifth and sixth grade. So upper elementary. They had longer lessons that went up to 30 minutes. So, the math lesson was 30 minutes at that time. Some of their history lessons were.   And then by the time they're in form three, which is middle school, seventh and eighth and up through high school, they had lessons that were more typically 30 to 40 minutes. So that doesn't seem like a short lesson to us. But the thing that we have to keep in mind is that she was building up their ability to attend closely through those years.   So, when they got up into a 40-minute science lesson in high school, they were supposed to be able to attend and pay close attention during that whole 40-minute lesson. And statistically, we know that that's not something that the adults of our day can do. Numbers have gone from a 30-minute attention span to 20-minutes here just in the last decade or so.   Thanks to social media and the switching that we're doing with our brain. So, what she was requiring of them actually appears to be really long lessons in high school. But we always talk about her short lessons.   Laura Dugger: (15:25 - 15:32) And then in high school, let's say how many of those lessons would you do on average per day?   Nicole Williams: (15:33 - 17:32) I would say six or eight lessons a day, but some of them are still short. Like for instance, they have a recitation lesson. By the time they're in high school, they're doing that on their own outside of school time.   But in middle school, they still have a 10-minute recitation lesson. They may have a 10-minute time of reading. So not all of the lessons are going to take 40 minutes.   And I also want to point out that in high school right now, many of the schools are changing to block systems. Where they are providing like an hour and 45 minutes to two hours for a single subject. So, say math.   First of all, who can pay attention to a subject that is often challenging for two hours like that? But then on top of that, they may do it in the fall semester, then not have math. Because the way they do it, these blocks, they would have like four classes a semester.   So maybe they would not have math at all in the spring. And then maybe the next year they're a sophomore and they don't have math in the fall, but they do in the spring. So, they've gone a full year with no math of any kind.   And now again, they have two-hour lessons. And then you compare that to what we can do in a homeschooling scenario. And this is what Charlotte Mason wanted us to do was every day, 30 minutes, every day, 30 minutes.   All the way through high school, every day of the week. And she actually had them doing algebra two days a week, geometry two days a week. And then continuing arithmetic, even maybe up into statistics, because some of these things they get done.   They go on to trigonometry or something in this session. But they are always getting that mental work every single day. Comparing those two things, you can see why this short lessons is valuable to just always be touching on a subject and challenging yourself in that way.   Laura Dugger: (17:32 - 17:59) There's another Charlotte Mason quote that I want to read where she says, “My object is to show that the chief function of the child, his business in the world during the first six or seven years of his life, is to find out all he can about whatever comes under his notice by means of his five senses. Nicole, how can we intentionally incorporate this idea?”   Nicole Williams: (18:00 - 22:09) So what she's talking about here is nature study, really. And we often think of nature study as just an extracurricular subject or, you know, something light. I actually my first introduction to Charlotte Mason, it was the nature study that drew me in.   But I know for a lot of people, it's the opposite. You know, they like, why do we have to do this nature study stuff? But she's also particularly talking about a very young child in this case.   So, what she tells us later in this quote is that the intellectual education of the young child should lie in the free exercise of perceptive power, because the first stages of mental effort are marked by the extreme activity of this power. So perceptive power, picking up details, paying attention long enough to pick up details. And furthermore, this little quote, it is about two sentences after the header.   Habit is ten natures, which is kind of a funny title. But habit is one of the three educational instruments that Charlotte Mason said that we were allowed as teachers, as parents were teaching our kids. She said we were only allowed three instruments of education.   That is the atmosphere of environment, the discipline of habit and the presentation of living ideas. So that's kind of a big thing. But what I want to point out is this idea of habits.   What we're doing when we are helping them in those first years to find out whatever comes under his notice is they're learning the habit of being attentive. And this is one of the habits of mind. She talks about habits of like our body and our mind, our intellectual habits, just habits like, you know, covering your cough or pushing in your chair.   But she talks about habits of mind when she talks about them. So, they're learning the habit of being attentive for more than a fraction of a second. She gives them a scenario where a child kind of runs by a daisy and the mom calls him back and says, “Oh, look closer. You know, this daisy closes its eye at night. So, it's like a day's eye because during the day it's open and at night it closes up.”   And for that moment, the mom is just drawing the child back to this little object lesson and helping them to look at it for just a couple more seconds than they were going to look at it on their own.   So, she's building that habit of attention and using their senses. They're also learning the habit of thinking when they're spending time in nature about what they've observed. You know, they're asking themselves, why does the daisy close at night?   And where's the bee going next? And how did the tree produce these flowers in spring? How does it know when it's time for the tree buds to open or the daffodils to bloom?   And so, they're learning the habit of thinking and they're learning the habit of imagining, which is another one of the habits of mind. Where does the tracks of this fox come from? Was it skulking around here last night?   What was he looking for and where was he going and learning to imagine? And they're learning the habit of remembering. They may see a bee and they saw a bee yesterday, but they remember that yesterday's bee had a black face and this one has a yellow face.   So, it must be a different one. And they're often narrating; we're asking them to tell us what they saw. And so, they're learning the habits of accuracy and truthfulness.   No, there wasn't a thousand bees, but there was a lot. How many? Maybe, maybe a hundred, you know, so they're learning to be accurate.   So, these habits that we're cultivating through nature study and object lessons in these very young age allow our children to make the most of living ideas when they're presented through their education. So, you know, we think it's nothing, but we're helping them when they start their reading lesson, when they start their math lesson. All of these habits of mind that we've been training through nature study are going to be able to be utilized in the child when they get to doing lessons like that.   Laura Dugger: (22:10 - 22:24) Well, that leads me to wonder, Nicole, from your perspective, what are the unexpected benefits of living a life out of doors and delighting in nature, almost regardless of weather?   Nicole Williams: (22:24 - 27:31) OK, I've just started reading the book. There's no such thing as bad weather. And she even chuckles in there.   She's from Sweden and she says that there is a poll done in Sweden where they ask people because they are like they have outdoor kindergarten. Like every day is outdoor the whole-time kindergarten in Sweden, you know. And she said all they could say is it's good for you.   And it truly is good for us. It's good for us mentally and it's good for us physically. On the mental note, Charlotte Mason talked about how we can recall something that we've seen, and it gives us a level of peace when we're kind of in our busy lives.   So, she had the children do something called picture painting, which was actually just a mental exercise with maybe mom and child would be standing at the edge of a pond and they would make a mental picture of that pond. And the mom could help by pointing out things like the reflection of trees on the lake or something like that to help them get a more full picture. But the idea was these pictures of natural places they had experienced and been to would be with them always.   And they could kind of reflect on them anytime they needed a peaceful moment. There's also studies that show that if students spend time in nature before they take a big test, they do better on the test. And interestingly, those tests were side by side with people who spent time in nature or people who spent time like walking down a busy street.   And the mental piece that came from walking solely in nature versus walking on a busy street where your mind is keeping track of the cars and the people and things like that, that's not restful. And the restfulness of walking in nature allowed kind of their brain to regroup and they did better on a test after that. That was a test that was mentioned in Last Child in the Woods, which is an excellent book.   And if you think you know all the reasons why nature is valuable and important, that book has so much more to say than you ever thought. Also, one of the things that happens is the child's sense of beauty grows. I do a whole hour-long talk on the importance of this and how we miss it.   My husband and I went away for just three nights here recently. And each morning he would go out and fish and he would come back. And the last day he said, the daffodils have bloomed since we've been here. And I said, “No, are you talking about it like the big curve in the road?” He said, “Yeah.” And I said, “Those were bloomed when we got here.”   And he just he was really focused on the river and the fish, and he'd missed it every day. And we do this when I do my talk. I actually show this little video or something really large and interesting shows up in the screen.   And every single time, 50 percent of the people don't see it. And when we think about the importance of seeing beauty around us, it's God's world. It's the beauty that he has given us to kind of encourage us and build us up and remind us of what purity looks like.   And if we don't see it at all, because we're just really honed in on our life and our schedule and the next thing we've got to get to, that's just a huge loss. So, on that note, it could lead to a greater reverence and a fuller appreciation of God. There's so much that God reveals to us through nature and we have to be able to see it in order to appreciate that.   And then, like I talked about before, it's the natural way people, young children, older people to learn. So, if they spend time in nature and they're able to, say, discern that black faced bee from the yellow faced bee. Then when we're asking them to look at the letter B versus D and there is just such a small difference between the two, they are more attentive and discerning to little details.   And then finally, my favorite one is that it lays the foundation for science. I would even say it really is science. People want to skip this and just go to the book, Work of Science.   But also, in Lash Out of the Woods, Richard quotes a man who is Stanford University School of Medicine professor. And he points out that it's alarming to teach these doctors how the heart works as a pump because they've never done anything that shows the physics of this. They've never, I think he says, like worked a garden hose or worked on a car, siphoned something.   All of these direct experiences in the backyard, they've missed those. And so, they're being trained them by rote memory, but they have no experience with the physics of the way the world works. So, it really is science also.   Laura Dugger: (27:32 - 27:44) That's incredible. And I'm hearing such a mystery involved as well. We don't know all that God is up to being outdoors and what he created, but there's so much learning taking place.   Nicole Williams: (27:44 - 27:45) Absolutely.   Laura Dugger: (27:47 - 33:22) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right. Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University. 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And if you aren't located near Chick-fil-A East Peoria, make sure you check with your local Chick-fil-A restaurant to see if they also participate in the Elevate program with Point University. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Are you utilizing Savvy Sauce Charities to full capacity? Other than our Special Patreon Release episodes, our content is now available in video form in addition to our audio only. And we have written transcriptions for every episode.   Visit our website today, thesavvysauce.com, to access all these forms of interviews. And while you're there, make sure you sign up for our email list to receive encouragement, questions, and recommended resources about once a month to promote your own practical chats for intentional living. I also want to remind you about the financial side of Savvy Sauce Charities.   As you know, we recently became a non-profit, which means all your financial support is now tax deductible. 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We are all about sharing around here, sharing resources, sharing joy, and sharing the good news about Jesus Christ.   We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing The Savvy Sauce podcast episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review. You can also share any of our social media posts on Instagram or Facebook. We are grateful for all of it, and we just love partnering together with you.   Now, back to the show.   Well, Nicole, you mentioned that your specialty is science, and when I think of your website, it has the name Sabbath in the title. So how do you weave these two together in your life?   Nicole Williams: (33:23 - 37:23) Yeah. So, I started a blog immediately after hearing a Wendell Berry poem, and that's how I named my blog. So, it was named before I started doing science curriculum.   But if you don't mind, I'd love to read the poem to you. It's beautiful. It's short.   Yeah, please do.   He says, “Whatever is foreseen in joy must be lived out from day to day. Vision is held open in the dark by our ten thousand days of work. The hand must ache, the face must sweat, and yet no leaf or grain is filled by work of ours. The field is tilled and left to grace. That we may reap great work is done while we're asleep.”   When we work well, a Sabbath mood rests on our day and finds it good. And that just had such a powerful impact on me because I realized as homeschool families, and Charlotte Mason made this very, very clear, we are presenting all of the feasts to our children, but we don't know what they're going to be interested in, what they're going to have an aptitude for, learning disabilities or challenges they may have, or places where they will excel and go above and beyond in a subject. We don't know those things.   We are working in cooperation with the Holy Spirit by sitting down every day and doing the lessons that are part of our schedule for that day. And what becomes of that within our child is up to the Lord. And that is hard for us because we have a lot to prove, or we think we do, to our neighbors, to our in-laws, to the local school, if we are having to school under some kind of an umbrella system in our state.   If we have children who have any kind of delays or special needs, we feel like we have even more to prove. And what Charlotte Mason wanted us to do was just present this information and let it take root in the child the way it would, because she said that they had a natural desire to learn. When they don't, it's because we've actually done something to destroy it.   They have a natural desire and ability to learn the types of things that we're putting before them. So, there's a lot of faith that goes into what we're doing. And frankly, there's a lot of faith that goes into a teacher in a classroom.   It's not any different. It's just that we will have a whole lot more peace in our life if we acknowledge that that's how it is, that we're not in charge here, that God is. So that is how my blog got its name.   And then science fell into that. And I feel like it's the same. It really just everything falls under that category for me, that our children are due the material that we're offering them.   And it's not within our right to hold back pieces and parts of it because maybe it's hard for us. For instance, physics. A lot of parents did not take physics in school because it was so math based in school.   But I was just talking to you about how physics is their love that God gave us. They are in nature everywhere we see. So, to kind of put blinders on and pretend like it's not there, that's not right.   It's a subject that's due to our child, whether they can handle the math or not. And so, through my curriculum, I actually have the math as optional. And I say optional, but it's not optional to the students.   It's optional because if a student can't do the math, they still have the ability to do the course and learn about the laws that God's given us. So, I don't know if that answers your question or not.   Laura Dugger: (37:23 - 37:44) I love how you explain things. And I think it's helpful that we've covered an overview of your chosen method of homeschooling. But I'd also like to know some more specific rhythms.   And so, what potential do you see in morning time, afternoons, and evenings?   Nicole Williams: (37:46 - 44:32) Yeah, I feel even more strongly about this stuff now that I'm not homeschooling because I really began to follow Charlotte Mason's ideas for her schedule. And it wasn't just the school schedule. She had kind of a whole day schedule for the kids.   She wanted them to start lessons at around nine, eight or nine. And, of course, these things are flexible. I don't want to make it sound like it's a legalistic thing, but she wanted them to start school around nine.   And then depending on their age, school stopped after two and a half to four hours. Two and a half for the youngest children, four hours for the oldest. And she had different amounts established for the different ages.   And the reason that it was kind of short like that is because she felt like twofold. One, their attention was going to be greater on their subjects if we kept their school day shorter. And she packs a lot in there.   So, there is this feeling of like the big deep breath after school is over because we've worked hard during that time, especially if you have kids, multiple kids in different age ranges. But then because after school she wanted them to have time for free play and just literally running mostly outside games, climbing trees, collecting wildflowers, doing things like that. And we know whether we want to acknowledge it or not, we know how important this free time is to kids.   For one thing, when they are playing outside, how many times have we seen our kids playing a game that is related to what we've been reading in history or tapping into whatever their science was? You know, maybe they're studying insects and now they're out there collecting them. So, there is this thing that happens in their brain.   It's like when we go to sleep after reading a book and mulling over a big question and then we wake up in the morning and we have our answer. Our brains do work in the background when we are not busy trying to shove things in. But this doesn't happen when we're playing video games or watching TV.   Our brains really check out at that. So, we have to have a play time for the kids or free time. And then she called them back just before what she called tea time.   And it really is like our dinner time an hour before then. And everybody did what she called occupations. And this was handicrafts.   And maybe your child plays the piano and they need to practice every day making entries in their book of centuries, which is kind of a history timeline kind of book, their nature notebook, things like that. So, there is this block of time before dinner. And by the way, some chores and things like that and then dinner.   And so that kind of leaves the before school in the morning and the after dinner to like leisure time, chore time, maybe getting meals cooked and things like that. Well, I started following her schedule pretty closely during my time homeschooling. I didn't really pick up on her schedule until kind of about halfway through my homeschooling journey.   But little by little, I understood more what she was saying to do and really implemented it. Well, then when I was done homeschooling, I still had one, but she was very independent. My life seems to kind of go off the rails.   I was struggling. I just could not get anything done. It felt like I was doing so much.   And I don't know. I just I can't even really quite explain it. But I was super overwhelmed with the work that I do.   I wasn't getting dinner made. And at some point I realized that all of that really somewhat rigid schedule that we had fallen into over the years was such a piece to my life. I am not a person who likes a schedule.   I actually just really want to be left alone. Whatever the day brings that I want to do, I want to do it. I am not a person who keeps a list of what they're going to do every day of the week and stuff like that.   It's just not a comfortable place to me. But what I found when all of that was taken away is that the comfort and the peace that came with those routines was gone. And so, I look back and I just have to say that is that is the potential in those things and having a time for all of the things.   So, I eventually had one day a week that I would accept, you know, doctor's appointments when I started homeschooling. If they wanted me to go to the dentist at, you know, 10 in the morning because I'm flexible, I'm a homeschooler. I would go do that and totally wreck our whole school day.   And then there came a time where I said, no, we only do appointments on Wednesday afternoons. And maybe I had a backup thing if it happened. That was the doctor's day off or something like that.   But if I had to wait five weeks for an appointment, that's what I did. Unless it was an emergency, of course. But I really landed on a pretty rigid outline.   Now, we have things happen. We moved in the middle of the school year like five times. We remodeled the house.   I lost my mom. I cared for my grandma at the end of her life. Things happen.   So, I'm not suggesting that this is like a very rigid thing, but we have to have something to aim at. And when we do and we know nine o'clock, I'm going to have my mom butt in my chair. And I expect everybody else to be there, too, because this is my job.   And there are other people who can educate my kids, and the bell will ring and it starts on time. So, if I'm going to take on this role in my life, I need to be accountable to my children, to my husband, to myself to make this a priority. And when I started having a little bit more of that attitude.   There came peace. It's just like our life under the law of the board. The rules he gives us allows us to have peace in our life.   And when we establish some of those for ourselves, it can bring peace, too. So, there's definitely potential in having kind of blocks of your day. This is what we do now. This is what we do this day of the week. That kind of thing. And everybody gets on board with it, too.   We take a nature walk on Friday. Everybody knows it. Everybody looks forward to it. And everybody holds me accountable to it. That kind of thing.   Laura Dugger: (44:33 - 44:49) That is so helpful to hear. And really, even during those especially trying seasons, it seemed like this self-disciplined intentionality with which you lived life, that that really brought in freedom kind of unexpectedly.   Nicole Williams: (44:50 - 45:25) It really did. In fact, towards the end of homeschooling, I found that my business was growing, and I felt like I had so much to do there. But when I sat down to do lessons with my kids, there was never more scheduled for that day's series of lessons than we could do during that time.   So, there was never this feeling of being behind or being rushed or trial. It was just like; this is what we're going to do today. And it gave great peace.   It really did. It took a long time for me to get to that place. I hope other people can get there faster than me.   Laura Dugger: (45:26 - 45:42) But even to hear about your journey, if you said the longest school days, I'm assuming even as they got older, it was about four hours to get everything done. So then by one o'clock in the afternoon, is that when you would do your work?   Nicole Williams: (45:42 - 47:49) It is. And so, at that point, they were older. What I found is that when we do our lessons with our kids in that kind of intense way, like we've got four hours, we're doing them.   And my kids, of course, at that age, they were both the last two were in high school. You know, one might be on one couch, one on the other. I'm in the chair and I do something with one of them and then maybe the other.   Then we're both doing. So, they're not like going off. They were there. We were all. And maybe I had a period of time to myself that I could use for planning, you know, a half hour.   They're both reading their history. I'm going to plan for, you know, tomorrow's lesson or something like that. So, there was some let up there. It is different when you have like two children who are learning to read.   You know, there is a lot more challenge than that. I used to say when they were younger that I felt like an air traffic controller and the intensity of that time of me getting from this child's lesson to that child's lesson. Now I've got to hear a narration.   We really had to be very orderly about it, or it wasn't going to get done. But when it was done, the kids wanted to go off and play. They weren't going to hang on me because they'd had a lot of really good quality time with me.   So, they were ready to go play. And that gave me like, OK, redirect, you know, have a break. I would do some work.   Often I made lunch and cooked dinner at the same time after school lesson. And then that was done and put aside. And then later I did have a child who got into ballet and spent like four hours some nights in ballet.   And then that's when I kind of did my work. You will never, ever hear me recommend to a homeschooling mom to take on work. It is hugely challenging to homeschool your kids, take care of your home and do any kind of outside work.   You really, it's hard just to do the basics. It's really hard when you have to throw some number of hours every day of work in there, too.   Laura Dugger: (47:49 - 48:02) And yet it sounds like God did call you to this work and you've participated well and you've ordered your life in this way. He's provided the grace to make this all happen.   Nicole Williams: (48:03 - 49:30) He has. I'd say one of the big things that I have taken away from all this is when you have times in your day where, you know, this is when I do school. This is when I cook dinner. This is when I do my morning chores. I will be home these days of the week. I won't go out of the house.   When you order your life in that way and you get called to do something like take care of my elderly grandma, you have room in your life to do that kind of thing. My grandma only lived a short distance from me. It took me like five minutes to get to her house.   But I would go every night, and I would take her dinner, and I'd sit with her for another hour or so and then I would put her to bed at night. Well, there were times in my life where I ran myself so hard that I could have never done that for her. So sometimes when we feel like we have a little extra time, we may take up knitting or, you know, read a book.   Do something that is edifying and building you up because you don't know what the Lord is going to call you to do in your life. And when we pack out every minute of every day, we're not really allowing him to call us into helping another person or do something that he's calling us to do. So that's my little soapbox.   Laura Dugger: (49:30 - 49:56) Yes, that is rightfully convicting. I think of a local woman here, Marsha Cook, who said margin makes me kinder. And so, I think that's worth pursuing.   But I am grateful that you work because you do a lot of good work and you have so much available. Can you just share a little bit more about your work and where we can go after this chat to learn more from you?   Nicole Williams: (49:57 - 53:15) Sure. My website is Sabbath Mood Homeschool, again, named after Brindleberry's poem. And there you will find just a lot of blog posts over many, many years.   You also find my living science curriculum there that is based entirely on how Charlotte Mason did it. So, I take no pride in my idea because it isn't my idea. I am literally just trying to basically do lesson planning for the parent.   You know, what experiment goes with this reading this week? What other resource like a current event or maybe a video would help to support this information? Just trying to take that work that the parent would need to do to prepare for that lesson and do it for them so that I have that there.   And in the last couple of years, I started making nature videos, too, to help people along with nature study. Charlotte Mason felt that it was best for the parent to learn about nature so that they could then help their kids along. So, I have videos about the different categories of flowers and birds and trees through the seasons and what to watch for.   And there's just a lot of things that like, you know, lots of people don't know that the buds on bushes and trees that form the flowers and the leaf buds are often formed in the fall. And they're there all winter long and we can look for them. So, things like that.   So, I have that there. And then I also have a newsletter that you can sign up for there. That is kind of random, both in how often it comes out and in what I include.   But I include things like, you know, the books I've read in a year and if there's a special coming up or sometimes just encouragement to something that maybe I'm thinking about at the time regarding how we spend our time or something like that. And then I'm also the co-host of a delectable education. And you've interviewed Emily and I think Liz comes next.   Right. Is that how it goes? That's correct.   All right. And the three of us together have the podcast of delectable education. And we're just finishing up our ninth season right now.   So, we have episodes on every subject of a Charlotte Mason education. Like, how do we do history? What in the world is Sulfa?   And what do we do? But then we also just have a lot of episodes just, you know, encouraging the homeschool family how to do this, what to do with afternoon times, things like that. And we put on a virtual conference every year called ADE at home.   And that is in February. And it was kind of born out of the delays of 2020, you know, but no conferences could happen. But we found that it has been a beautiful way to utilize students doing their lessons.   And so, when people watch, they're watching a family do a lesson before them, which we can never do at an in-person conference. So that has been incredible. We've gotten really good feedback on that.   So, we've continued doing it. That's about it. That's everything I think.   Laura Dugger: (53:16 - 53:40) So much on your plate, but we will link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode in case anyone wants to follow up and study further. And Nicole, you may know that we're called the Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with discernment or practical knowledge. And we would love to hear your practical life tips.   So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Nicole Williams: (53:42 - 54:45) Well, I would just have to say in a sentence is making a schedule and sticking to it. As much as I say that you have you have to picture me kicking and screaming on the floor like a two-year-old because I don't like to do it. But flexibility is fun, but it's not actually going to get the important things done in our life.   And we are responsible people who have integrity. And we know there are things that we must get done. And that's the only way that I know how to do it.   But I sometimes think of life creeping in. I have this mental picture of being in the front of a concert and people pushing and pushing. And if you go down, you're going to get trampled and maybe killed.   And I feel like that is how life is. It is always trying to creep in and push in on us. And we have to guard our life, our kids' school schedule, our kids' play time.   We have to guard that seriously because it's very, very important. So that's it. Make a schedule and stick to it.   Laura Dugger: (54:45 - 54:59) That is so good. And, Nicole, you just have such a warm and welcoming personality and a very calming presence. I really enjoyed this opportunity to get to interview you.   So, thank you for being my guest.   Nicole Williams: (55:00 - 55:18) Thank you so much. I wish the best of luck to all of your listeners. And I know this is a hard thing we've taken on.   It is not easy. But it is such a value. There's going to be fruits in their life throughout their whole life because of the time that you're devoting to them now.   Laura Dugger: (55:20 - 58:36) Thank you for that encouragement.   One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

From Gangster to Child of God with Brian Butler (Episode 290)   Disclaimer: This episode contains thematic material. Listener discretion advised.   2 Corinthians 1:4 NLT “He comforts us in all our troubles so that we can comfort others. When they are troubled, we will be able to give them the same comfort God has given us.”   *Transcription Below*   Brian Butler married his wife Pam in 2011. They have four children and eight grandchildren. Brian received his Bachelor of Science degree from Indiana State University in 2009. Arriving in Peoria, Illinois in 2009 Brian began his career working with the impoverished in his community as a Safety Net Monitor at The Salvation Army. He was afforded the opportunity to work with individuals in the community for four years providing case management assisting people to learn the value of work through work therapy and securing income and eventually housing. Brian was called to Peoria Rescue Ministries in 2014 and began his career there as the Assistant Director of the Rescue Mission. In 2018 Brian became the Program Director and in 2021 became the Director of Residential Ministries. In 2024 Peoria Rescue Ministries became Pathway Ministries. Coming from a former lifestyle of drug and alcohol addiction Brian has been able to transform programs at Pathway Ministries that address the needs of the impoverished community he serves to create pathways out of poverty through Jesus with his neighbors in need. Pathway Ministries provides emergency shelter, residential programs, and community services with a focus on counseling, education, and work to help the men and women they serve make transformative changes in their lives. Pathway Ministries is a social enterprise organization and has a partnership with Caterpillar – they reclaim discarded wood and turn it into pallets, mulch for industrial and commercial use, and home décor. Their residents are employed in these businesses while participating in their program.    Pathway Ministries Website   Thank you to our sponsor for today's episode: Midwest Food Bank   Topics We Cover: Growing up in an abusive home Lifestyle choices leading to prison God's miraculous redemption and restoration   Related Savvy Sauce Episode: 143 Prodigal Story: Sexuality, Drugs, and Scripture with Dr. Christopher Yuan   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:08)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 3:30) Hey friends! Thank you so much for joining us today. If you're watching this, you may notice that there's a unique screen that's going to pop up periodically.   So, here's the backstory. We delight in getting to do this work, and we do believe it's what God has called our team to do. And yet, we have a very present and active enemy.   And Satan has tried to thwart the progress of these podcast episodes in so many ways.  It's almost uncanny what will happen before a podcast recording. There's almost always something, yet it's different every time.   So, the way it showed up with this episode, first of all, when Brian and I tried to connect, somebody was working in our yard, and they accidentally cut our line for internet.  And so, we had to cancel that and reschedule. And then, when we got the episode rescheduled, Brian and I were chatting, and we haven't recorded.   We were just talking for a little while before the official interview began, and everything was great. And then, as soon as I said, “Welcome to The Savvy Sauce.” The screen went a little wavy, and something happened, and my audio quality was completely distorted. So, sorry for the lengthy explanation, but I wanted you to know how much work has gone into this episode.   So, if you ever have somebody that you want to thank, it should be Natalie, our editor, who had to go back and replace everything that I said to cover up the very convoluted form that was originally recorded. So, I hope it doesn't interrupt this episode or make it difficult for you to listen to, because Brian's story is so powerful, and I believe God has you here listening to this right now for a reason. So, please continue.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living.  I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.   Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this non-profit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.   Brian Butler is my outstanding guest for today, and he's going to take us on a very real journey with him from an extremely abusive childhood to a life of addictions and eventually to redemption and restoration all because of Jesus Christ. Brian's humility is so Christ-like, and I think that you're going to leave this conversation as a changed person. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Brian.   Brian Butler: (3:31 - 3:33) Thank you so much for having me here. I appreciate it.   Laura Dugger: (3:34 - 3:42) Well, I would just love to start backwards. Where did you grow up, and what was childhood like for you?   Brian Butler: (3:43 - 9:46) I grew up all over the place, really. I'd spent several years in Danville as a child, Hartsburg, Illinois, eventually settled down in southern Illinois in a little town called Bridgeport. My dad was a professor at a local college, and he ended up being a high school teacher.   Where I went to school, my mom and dad were continually in chaos with their marriage.  My dad had some severe mental health issues. He was a pretty rough guy to be around.    He was a chronic alcoholic. He was abusive, and I'll just say for this podcast, in every kind of way you can imagine how a little boy might be abused by his daddy, that was my dad. Yet, that was just our normal.   I didn't know if it was bad, if it was wrong, whatever. He was very verbally abusive to the whole family, him and my mom. I think my mother, the whole time growing up, was just trying to salvage her marriage and to save face with her family, so on and so forth.   It was a pretty rough childhood, but I want to say that in those moments, it was just the way it was.  We didn't know good from bad. That was still my dad.   I believe that in some weird way that he loved us and cared for us, but there were so many mental health and substance abuse issues with him and the perversion that he had in his life that just leaked over to my little brother and me.  It was a different relationship with my little brother. He was very abusive to my little brother.   My little brother had a lot of behavioral issues and rebellion issues.  I was more of the compliant, the good kid in school. I made the good grades.    I wanted to please my dad, and yet I hated him from the inside. I just couldn't stand him. I rebelled against him.    There were a lot of drugs and alcohol my parents were. My mother was not an abuser by any means. My mother was not an alcoholic by any means, but my mother went along with my dad.   My whole childhood evolved around parties. My dad was a pretty social guy. He was into politics and those kinds of things.   I was exposed to a lot of stuff at an early age. I can remember being seven, eight years old, going around in parties and just sipping whatever it was out of unknown glasses and enjoying the effect that it had on me as a little kid. I was a big fan of Billy Bear.   I didn't even know what Billy Bear was, but I was drinking Billy Bear. That's a Jimmy Carter beer, so that takes you back in the day. All the music that we listened to back in those days all evolved around afternoon delight and getting high in some kind of form or fashion.   That was just what I clung to as a little boy and as a young man.  I was a full-fledged blackout alcoholic by the time I was a sophomore in high school. I was drinking regularly.   I was able to fly under the radar pretty good because mom and dad were always in the middle of crisis. As long as I wasn't in a lot of trouble, that was easily hidden, even though it was really out in the light, if that makes any kind of sense. It was pretty rough.    Looking back on it, it was rough. In today's standards, we would have been taken away from our homes, and those kinds of things would have been exposed. We just didn't know.   That's just kind of the way it was, but it did lead me into a lifestyle.  I don't want to say they led me into it. I really chose to and clung to a lifestyle.   When I was a little boy, Laura, I grew up Catholic.  We went to parochial schools until I was in fourth grade. I can remember even now.    I loved God. I loved God. He was my refuge.    I didn't know what a refuge meant. I can just say it by language now. I can remember having my crucifix above my bed and I would pray.    I wanted to be a priest. I really did. By the time I got to about 10, 11, 12 years old, the things that had happened and the things that had occurred in my life and my behavior as well just led me to believe that if God was even real because I cried out to him a lot and it didn't seem like he was there.   If he was real, then he really didn't want anything to do with me anyway.  I became kind of anti-God, anti-rebellious. I was just a very rebellious young man.    I went to high school. I mean, I'm getting pretty good grades in high school. My dad was a high school teacher in the same high school I went to.    It was very tumultuous. You can imagine our house. There were split-ups and break-ups, this and that. My dad was a party guy. All the students loved him. I hated him for that.    He was separated from my mom. He was a cheater and a liar. There were a lot of things that bothered me.   After I graduated high school, I had a partial scholarship to go to Eastern Illinois University, but I showed my dad. I got in my little car and drove to Wyoming. That just became my lifestyle, drinking, drugging, roaming all around the country as a young man.    Then I eventually got married to a gal I met down in Kentucky. We had three children really fast. I would say that we got along about three times. That was Emily, Amy, and Mark. We were divorced after five years. Then I was just as a young man and a young adult, just wild and crazy.   Laura Dugger: (9:48 - 10:05) Wow. Brian, thank you for sharing a glimpse of your childhood and even into adulthood. Just for clarification then, when you did get divorced, did you stay in the same state or how did all of that work with your children?   Brian Butler: (10:08 - 16:52) Yeah. No. Like I said, when I was 18, I was out in California for a while.  I was in Wyoming for a while. I landed in Kentucky and met my first wife. We had three kids really fast, divorced after five years.   Then I always wanted to be in a relationship with my children. I don't know if there's anybody out there listening, but I was really stuck in an addictive lifestyle. I was alcohol and drugs, just crazy in it.    I still loved my kids. Now, people on the outside looking in would say, oh, he doesn't love his kids by his lifestyle, but I still love my kids. I paid child support, crying out loud.   I really did. My relationship with my ex-wife was so volatile that she would prevent me from seeing the kids. After several years, I just gave up.   I just didn't give up on the visits and so on and so forth.  I was in Tennessee for a few years. I was all around the country.   Eventually, in the late 90s, I did actually get temporary custody of my kids because my ex-wife had went off the rails bad.  I had my kids for about a year that they lived with me. That was a sweet time.   Once again, my alcoholism and drug addiction and the mom came back into play.  There were just so many issues there. That's when I really got into it.   After the kids went back to their mom, I got into hard drugs, really hard drugs.  I started manufacturing methamphetamine, so on and so forth. There was a time, I'll back this up.   With my childhood and everything that happened there with my dad, before I got divorced from my ex-wife, one of the pivotal moments, I believe, looking back on my life and what led me into just this trajectory of anger and malice and hating God and anything that was good was the moment that my dad called us all together for a family meeting because him and my mom were officially going to get divorced. I was like 21 years old, something like that.   My dad came to tell us that he was a homosexual and that he had been living a homosexual lie for his whole life and that this was the lifestyle that he was choosing. For me, at that age, everything prior to that moment in my life just became a lie. I can't begin to even put into words what that did to me inside because of the perversion that I've experienced with my dad.   My father had made several comments along the way that I was gay, that I was going to be a little queer, a little this and that. I wasn't, but the things that he had done, then you've wrestled with all that stuff. I just became so angry and so fueled with resentment that I really started on this trajectory with my drug and alcohol use that even though I still liked it, I don't want to remove that from it.    I liked being high. I liked being drunk. I enjoyed all the aspects of that lifestyle at the time.   I went at it in a much different way because I didn't really care anymore.  That's just from a looking back perspective. In the moment, I think I cared a lot about everything, but I just had really taken this perspective on in my personal life that nothing matters as much as it did.    It just really didn't matter. I was just going to keep moving forward and doing the things that I to the extreme. I was very extreme on everything.   If it was drinking, I'm going to drink more than you are. If it was smoking something, I'm going to smoke more than you are. If it was snorting, look at the schmoz.    That's just the way I lived my lifestyle. It really took on that trajectory in my adult life until the law started becoming an issue when I was in my 30s. After I'd had the kids for all my life, I tell folks, in those times, I was like a functioning zombie.   I was still getting high, still drinking, but golly, I was the dad that got up and had breakfast for the kids.  I was a strict disciplinarian. I was over the top on so many things.   I was abusive in some ways like my dad was, the way that I spoke to the kids, the way that I treated my children. I didn't certainly know sexual abuse or anything like that with my own children, but I was a really strict disciplinarian. I regret that now.   It's one of my biggest regrets ever, the way that I treated those kids. I tried to make a good life for about a year. Then when they went back to their mom, it just really, really flew apart my life.   It was me doing it. I was flying it apart. I just destroyed everything around me.   If you've cared about me, then that would make me hate you even more. Anyone that cared about me, I would get you to care about me, and then I would hate you for caring about me. It's crazy making stuff, but that's the way that I live my life.    I eventually was introduced to a fellow that knew how to manufacture methamphetamine. He taught me the method. Of course, being the extreme person that I am, I went all in.   I became a methamphetamine manufacturer and dealer and lived that lifestyle for quite some time. It's not like it is now where you're driving around in cornfields with a five-gallon bucket making methamphetamine or Mexican methamphetamine. I had a lab down in Southern Illinois, and I sold a lot of methamphetamines, which is disastrous to me now, but I really became an in-my-own-mind gangster kind of person.    It was a very violent lifestyle. It was very awful, certainly nothing that you would want to glorify, but that's just who I became. And I lived my life for a number of years, and it was disastrous.   Laura Dugger: (16:53 - 19:27) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.   Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.   Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses.   Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit midwestfoodbank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.   Well, I'm hearing all of this for the first time, and it's unimaginable what you were endured growing up, and my heart just aches to hear what happened and then hear the choices that were produced out of that and see where that lifestyle was leading you. But Brian, I just appreciate you for so many reasons, and one of those is for being transparent and vulnerable but also sharing the truth that there was some pleasure in it. You were enjoying it for a while, and the Bible does talk about pleasures of sin for a season, but we all know that that trajectory leads to death, even if it's death of relationships.   So, looking at your relationships at that time, were you still in contact with your mom or your brother or your dad throughout all of this?   Brian Butler: (19:28 - 21:37) No, not really. My brother, it's an interesting story. My brother had married a gal right out of high school.    He got born again. He became a Christian. So poor guy, I just tortured him my whole adult life.   I just made fun of him, and I called him weak, and he was a crutch, and we got in even physical fights over it a couple times, but we didn't have much of a relationship as you can imagine. I think that there were several times that we tried to reach out and be in contact, but it just didn't work due to my addictions and my alcoholism and his pride and all those other kinds of things. My mom held on to me for years.   I put my mother through, I tortured her. I was arrested seven times for driving under the influence. I had five DUI convictions.   I was in and out of trouble. I was always in the forefront of her mind, and I've experienced this with my own children after I came to Christ, continually worried that she wouldn't get the phone call that her son was dead, basically. The last two or three years of my being out there, I had no contact with my mom because she finally said, you're dead to me.   I'm done. You're not my son. I don't want to hear from you, and I was like, cool.   I don't care. You've been dead to me for 40 years, right? I blamed her for allowing things to happen.   It just wasn't true, right? I mean, it wasn't her fault at all of any of my childhood, and she was just trying to be a good mom and save her marriage, and she was being abused mentally and stuff that whole time. But you know how we are as sinful creatures.   I didn't want to take the blame on me because it wasn't my fault, so I was blaming everybody else around me. So, I didn't really have any solid relationships as far as family, anything like that goes while I was out there in my addiction. It all changed when I was arrested in 2003.   So that's a story.   Laura Dugger: (21:38 - 21:43) Are you willing to take us back to 2003 and share that story?   Brian Butler: (21:45 - 38:08) Yeah, yeah. So I was, like I said, I had become, you know, I was living a gangster life, so I was in the drug world, and I don't know if anybody knows anything about the drug world, but it's not like the movies. It's worse.    It's worse than they depict in movies. So, I was living that lifestyle for several years. I had a lot of money. I had a lot of guns. I had a lot of property. I had all the methamphetamine I could possibly use because I was manufacturing it.    I was selling more than I could possibly imagine. I was using more than that. I was king of the world is what I thought while everything around me was burning.    I was the king, if that makes any sense. And so that was the lifestyle that had led up to 2003. I'll never forget one time I had married another gal after my first wife and I had divorced several years later, and that was just a relationship based on lies and substance abuse.   So, it really wasn't a marriage at all, but I had been arrested in Vincennes, Indiana for dealing narcotics, and I had some other arrests down in Kentucky for dealing narcotics, and I made bail and all this. And so, what happened was in 2002, I went on the run. I still had my meth lab, and I was still selling lots of methamphetamine, but I had these warrants, and I was king of the world in my mind, and nobody was going to catch me, and I was going out like a gangster.    They were never going to take me alive, this fact. So, she went with me, which is great. She was crazy.    And we went on the run, and we just lived from casino to casino. I would make methamphetamine. I would sell $20,000 worth, and then we just kind of traveled around and lived that kind of lifestyle.    And I'll never forget one time down at the Casino Queen in St. Louis, Missouri. There's a casino down there. I just done a pretty big dope deal, and the casino was hot, and the air conditioning was down, and it was like 5 o'clock in the morning, and I just had to get out of there.   I just had to get away, and I got in my van and took a spin down in Belleville, Illinois, and I ended up in a cemetery on top of this cemetery, and it was looking down this great big hill. And I haven't been there since, but people from that area are like, yeah, I know that cemetery. I'm like, yeah, well, that's where I really had my Lieutenant Dan moment with God almost.    I sat on top of that. I was so, I can't explain it. I had lived my life in that addiction, loving that addiction, and loving getting high, loving drinking.   At that point in my life, I was still doing it. I hated myself, and I wanted to die, and I didn't like it so much anymore. I just wanted it to be over, and I kind of had it out with God.   I was drinking a fifth of whiskey, and I'm smoking methamphetamine. I'm a nine-millimeter pistol, and I'm putting it in my mouth. I was too much of a coward to pull the trigger, so that made me even more angry, and I thought for a moment that God might be real, and that there might be something worth living, but it was just a moment, and I kind of gathered myself together, and I went back to the casino, and just like as if nothing had happened, and just a few weeks later, I was arrested in Washington, Indiana.    I had made arrangements to see my kids. I had my kids for the weekend, which is crazy to think that I was in any kind of shape to be around my kids, but I was. I was always a functioning guy, and I was a gangster, so we had the kids for a weekend, and when the kids left the location I was at, my ex-wife called the police and told them where I was, and so that led into a great big chase, and there was all kinds of SWAT teams and all kinds of things.   I was holed up in a house at one point, and police were banging on the windows and trying to get in the house, and eventually they called on the telephone, and it just kept ringing and kept ringing and kept ringing.  I'm stuck in this house. I didn't have my guns.    I didn't have any drugs. I didn't have a cigarette, right, and the crazy thing about that whole thing is, I'll just back to the subject, so I'm in this chase, right, on foot from the police. I tried to pull a guy out of his pickup truck.   Of all things, God put this guy in the pickup truck. He was an off-duty police officer, and so I'm trying to carjack an off-duty police officer. He's having none of it.    I get away from him. I get in this. I'm running through a residential neighborhood trying to get any door open that I possibly could to get away from the police who were chasing me, and I made it to an open door, and I opened up that door, and it was an insurance company, and there were a bunch of little ladies sitting around computers in this room, and I was just like, hey, can I get a glass of water, and out there I am sweating profusely just in 10 o'clock in the morning with Harley Davidson boots, Hawaiian t-shirt, obviously in distress, and I scared these ladies to death, and I'm hearing them call the police anyway, and I just grabbed a glass of water and went out on that front porch, and some fella drove up in a pickup truck and got out of the truck to come in to do business with the insurance company, and I went and stole his truck, and I was able to get away and get to a safe spot.   I think it's safe because I'm only there for about three or four minutes, and the police show up all the way around that house, and so they're calling.  They're banging on the windows. We know it's you in there.   You need to come out, and eventually after about an hour or so of that, I did answer the phone, and the police officer said, I had a fake ID, and they were like, we know you're not Bill Berkshire.  We know that you're Brian Butler. You need to come out of that house.   You need to come out of there now, or we're going to come and get you, and I said, well, try it, because I'll kill the first three of you through the door. Now, they had already confiscated my fan and guns and all that kind of stuff, but they didn't know what I had. I didn't have anything.   There was a six-foot decorative simmer I swore on the wall that couldn't cut butter that I was arming myself with, and it took about another hour or two, and the SWAT team showed up, and they eventually got me out of that house. I was arrested and facing 120 years in the 20th century. I had multiple carjacking, dealing, manufacturing, every possible imaginable that you could possibly imagine of illegal substances.   I had those on me in my van and the property, and so there was the chase and all that happened, so they were unwilling to run any of those charges concurrent. They took four major charges and said, we're going to run a consecutive, and I was facing 120 years in prison. Honestly, when I was in jail, it was kind of like a relief in a way.    I was so angry. I was delusional. I really thought that the people who owed me money were going to break me out.    That's how delusional I was. They didn't, but that's where I had a moment, and I come back to my mom. I'd been in jail about a month, and what had happened was my mom came to the jail, and she didn't come there for a visit.   She came on a Saturday morning, and the police let her in, and she wanted to know if I would sign papers because I still had temporary custody of my children on paper and if my brother could have legal custody over my kids while all this was going on. Because my children, I'll back that up, my children were in Kentucky with their mom, my youngest daughter at that time. I was 14 years old, and she was using methamphetamine.    She was into alcohol. She wasn't being supervised. She was in abusive relationships with her mother's friends.   She was cutting herself because her daddy was going away forever. That was my daughter, and I loved her, and I was just taken aback that my brother would go down and rescue her. The whole story of how I came to Christ is all involved in this.   I'm kind of all over the place, but the Friday night prior to my mom showing up at the jail, back in those days in jail, there was no overcrowding in Indiana, and there were 16 of us in a six-man cell, and I had been in that jail for, like I said, three or four weeks, and on Friday nights, they would have the Gideons come in. Now, the only thing I knew about a Gideon was those Bibles that they put in hotels, and I was none too interested in any God talk. I didn't believe in that.   I just didn't want anything to do with that. As a matter of fact, I was mad about it, but after three or four weeks of being in there smelling nothing but feet and urine, I was willing to do anything for 15 minutes to get out of that cell, and so I agreed to go, and me and two other guys went up to a visitation booth, and there was a little fella in there, and he was very nice, but I couldn't tell you anything he said for the 15 minutes, nothing.    I wasn't paying attention. I was just sitting there looking around, just glad to be out of that cell, but at the end of that 15 minutes, he knocked on the window, and he pointed at me. He said, can I pray for you, and I said, hell no, you can't pray for me.   I don't want your prayers. I'm not here for your prayer, and whatever language it was, I was very vile. I said, but if you want to pray for something, you think that God of yours is listening, you pray for my daughter, and I kind of told her a little bit about what's going on with my kid.   I said, and so you pray for her, and he did, and I can't tell you what he prayed because I really wasn't listening, but it was nice, and I remember that night going back to my cell, and with my Catholic upbringing and everything that had happened, I think I probably said a little prayer myself that night to this God that I didn't believe in, and then a week later, my mom shows up telling me that my brother in Cleveland, Ohio, born again Christian, that the very night that this guy was praying, my brother and his wife decided to come down to Vincent's, Indiana, and they got my mom, and they drove to Owensburg, Kentucky, and literally kidnapped my daughter and took her back to live with them, and I wasn't, I was just kind of in a haze.   I wasn't putting all that together in the moment, and like I said, mom wasn't there for a visit, and I was just like Mark, would you do that for me?  He went and got Amy. I just couldn't believe it, and she's like, yes, I just need you to sign the paper so I can get out of here, and so I did, and that night, I was back in that jail cell, and all those lights were off, and man, the Holy Spirit of God fell on me, and he told me he was real, and to the best of my ability, I confessed my sins.    I repented for my sins. I was just, I just spent the whole night as a 40-year-old gangster, blubber, and idiot in a jail cell just crying about everything, just about my dad, about my lifestyle. I missed my kids.   It just came crashing down on me, and I believe that that was the night that I was truly born again. I believe that God had his hand on me before the foundation of the world. He knew me, and that he loved me, and he chose me, and that I loved him as a little boy, and for whatever happened in my life that I chose to ignore him and run away from him and hate him, but through his mercy and grace and through even facing 120 years in the penitentiary that he saved me, and I believe that night that I got saved, and I just told him, I know we're not supposed to make a deal with God, but it was just kind of like, man, I believe you're real. I don't know anything about you.   I don't know what, you know, my Catholic brother, I don't know if Mary has anything to do with this. I don't know nothing about you, but I believe you're real, and I'll do anything you tell me for the rest of my life if you just take this taste out of my mouth. I just don't want this addiction. I don't want all this crap anymore, and in that moment, he did.   I really believe that he took that away from me, and I've been following him kind of ever since. The next morning when they opened up the cell, we went out to the day room.  I'll never forget. There was a Bible there. Now, that Bible's been there the whole time, but it's the first time I see the Bible, and I kind of, you know, I'm still struggling.   I've been up all night, and I'm kind of wiped out anyway, drinking instant coffee and, you know, having a God experience, and there's a Bible, and I pick up this Bible, and it was in Romans chapter five. I'll never get it, and I'll just paraphrase, but I remember reading the verses that having been justified by faith, and it just kind of hit me that I wish I really believed God was real, and I don't know what that means, and I don't know anything about it, but I went on to read that I was no longer his enemy and that I could have peace with him and that he was going to give me good character and that I could persevere. It didn't matter what I had in front of me, so it was just God speaking to me in those moments that I'm going to be with you through all this, and it was just a wonderful, life-changing experience. It didn't, you know, sanctification takes a long time.   I still was sentenced to 15 years in prison, which was a miracle, right? I was facing 120, and there it was nothing that I had done prior to my conversion. I had been in front of a judge, and I had a $1 million full cash bond.   I was in front of the judge, and I'm like, I want a bond reduction. The judge is like; you're telling me you're going to pay $100,000 to get out of jail. I said, angrily, you could reduce my bond, and he said, denied.   We're not going to do that, and that was the last time I really talked to a judge or an attorney, and I sat in jail for six or seven months, and this attorney that was appointed to me after the one that I fired, he came to me one time and said, hey, they're willing to give you a 15-year sentence in prison if that's what you want to do, and I said, okay.  I wasn't concerned about prison. I wasn't concerned.   I just wanted to do what the Lord wanted me to, and that's been my whole life since.  People will ask me about prison. It was horrible, as you can imagine.    I was in the state of Indiana. There were no separation of offenders at that time. I was in a medium-max facility, so I was doing time with guys who were doing life, which were the best guys to do it with because they were just doing life, and then little gangbangers from Indianapolis.   It was a terrible affair. Every kind of drug possible, every kind of perversion possible was there, but it's where I met Jesus, and it's where I learned to follow Christ, and I had a godly man come alongside of me in the prison, Pastor Woodcocks, who just assigned my guy, and he helped me to work through so many things and to be a man of truth and integrity and all the different things that he taught me, so while I look back at that, and I say, yeah, prison sucked.   It was awful, and I never want to go back again in that capacity, but it's where I learned to follow Christ, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.  I wouldn't trade that time for anything. I needed every ounce of that time to become closer to him and to be less about me, and then I got out of prison in 2009.   It was a shock probation here to Peoria, Illinois, where my oldest daughter was at that time, and I moved in with her.  She's been following Jesus ever since. It's not been an easy road, right?   It's not been being a convicted felon and having all those things, but God does, if he is for us, who can be against us, right?  He has really, really, really been by my side. There's been so many things that have happened.   I could go on for hours and hours and hours, but that's how I came to Jesus and where I got to know Jesus and where I really solidified my relationship with, I believe, and he's saved.   Laura Dugger: (38:10 - 38:55) What an incredible journey he took you on.   Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights? Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month.  Enjoy.   So, then Brian, as a freed man at that point, once you were out of prison, how did you eventually find your way to what is now Pathway Ministries?   Brian Butler: (38:57 - 45:56) It's been a wild ride. I got out of prison thinking I was going to be a prison minister and there was going to be all kinds of things that were going to happen. You kind of buy into that prosperity stuff while I was locked up.   I really thought that there were big things in store. After I was out of prison for about three months, it was 2009, and so the economy in Peoria was really bad. The cap shut down.    Places weren't hiring. I couldn't find a job anywhere. I remember going to Kroger in Madison Park.   If anybody remembers Madison Park Kroger in Peoria, it was a really rough part of town.  They were banging out in the parking lot. I'm here.   I called the manager and he said set up a time for an interview.  I went to the interview, and I took him my resume. They taught us in the penitentiary and in classes.   I got a bachelor's degree in prison, by the way. I filled out my resume, and I filled the time up in my resume with the prison ministry I was involved in. Just so you don't have that slack of time.   The manager said, oh, I see that you were in a prison ministry. Man, that's amazing. Did they let you in there every day?    Well, I lived there. I was in prison at that time. This is what I was doing while I was in prison.   His words to me shook me to the core because he handed me back that resume and he said, “We don't hire your kind here.” I'm telling you, after all the disappointment I have for two or three months of not being able to find a job and rejection after rejection, I walked out in the parking lot. My daughter took me back to her house and I remember sitting on the end of her bed.   I'm not a crier, really, but at that time I think I might have been crying a little bit. She was bawling and I was just like, “Just take me down to the shelter. I don't want to be any more of a burden to this family. Please, I got to go.”   She's like, “Don't give up, dad, don't give up.” I'm like, “I'll give it up, oh God, I just don't want to be a burden.”    She said, “Just wait, just wait, just give it a little more time.” I agreed to do that. That week, through the grapevine, one of the friends of a guy that she went to church with, John McCormick, at McCormick Auto Place in Belleville, Illinois, called and said, “Hey, I heard through the grapevine you're having a hard time getting a job. I need somebody washing cars.”   That was a far cry from, you know, I'm a 46-year-old man and I'd walk around with briefcases full of money. It was a humbling experience, but I went to work for John, and he ended up, you know, as a Christian, he was just a Christ follower.    He accepted me into his family. I went from 10 hours a week to part-time. I eventually got a part-time job at the Salvation Army.    They called me. It was one of the first places I put in a resume. Paul Cousin called me from the Salvation Army.   He's like, “Hey, I don't know why we never saw your resume before, but we need help. Would you like to come to work at the safety net working with homeless guys?” I'm thinking, well, you know, I've been homeless, so sure.   And I went down there and I started working there.  And so eventually that turned into a full-time job at the Salvation Army. And I stayed working washing cars.    I washed cars for 12 years with John. He's just so great. He's one of the greatest Christian dudes you ever met.    He just, he was so vital in my Christian walk in my life. But I was at the Salvation Army. I was running, believe it or not, the lead case manager of Drop-In Center for the Homeless.    And I had conversations with Peoria Rescue Mission at that time, Peoria Rescue Ministries. Now, I'd never been there. I thought they were religious zealots.    You know, it was everything. It was so religious that the guys couldn't be there. But I did know that they did not allow drugs or alcohol.   And so, when I would meet a man that was struggling with addiction and they wanted to get out of them, I would call and talk to Lee and say, “Hey, listen, I got a guy I think would be good for your fit. Can I send him down there?” And so, we kind of built this bond.    Lee and I had this relationship over the phone. I'd never met the guy ever. Back in those days, Lee was really into sending those funny little emails.   You know, they always have a little cartoon or a little message. You know, the email knows that when you're really busy at work, you kind of start deleting after a while. And one day he sent me an email, and it said, “Are you interested?”    And for some reason, I opened it. And I know the reason is God. And he said that they had a position as the assistant director of the rescue mission, but I'd be interested in coming down and applying for the job.    And I went down and met with Lee. And one thing led to another. My wife, Pam, who I'm married to now, I consider my wife.   I can't believe that I'm married to somebody who loves God. Now, I know we're supposed to stay the way that we are, biblically a single and all these things scripturally as we come to Christ to stay that way. But this is my first marriage.    This is my marriage. In Christ, we're in marriage. She is the most wonderful. She's my gift that God just kind of gave me to care for and to nurture and to love her the way that I should.  But she really encouraged me. At the time of the Salvation Army, we were HUD funded.    I couldn't openly share my faith. I always had to take back doors to it. And she's like, this is what you've always prayed for.    They'll let you do that there, take the job. And so, I did. And that's how I came on at Peoria Rescue Ministries.    Eventually it became Pathway Ministries. I just kind of worked as Mr. Rokey, came on board in 2016. And then in 2018, we're really trying to do some things back there.   And from the way we used to do them, meeting people in crisis, I had a lot of good ideas.  And John had a lot of great ideas. And we're on the same page.    And he asked me to be program director. And I'm like, well, I'd love to, if I can write a program. And so, he just gave me free reign.   And then now I'm the director of residential ministries at Pathway Ministries. Just being able to allow God to blow that whole thing up. And he has to meet people just like me, just like so many other sons and daughters out there that need to have a God block put in front of them while they're in their crisis.    And so, it's just been a beautiful thing. And I just praise God for all the leadership and just what we've been able to do. And that's how I came to Pathway Ministries.    Just being able to do God's work there. It's incredible. It's crazy.   Putting it in a nutshell is really hard because there's been so many things that the Lord has done personally and through the ministry. It has just been incredible, the path that he's had me.   Laura Dugger: (45:57 - 46:35) You do such an amazing work there, and it is a worthy ministry to support. We'll definitely put links in the show notes for today's episode for Pathway Ministries. And that's a whole other conversation to talk about the miracles witnessed there.   But just to go back and close a few loops, I'm sorry, I'm going to throw a few things at you.  So, when did Pam come into the picture? And what's a current snapshot of your life with your children now?   And what did forgiveness look like with your family of origin?   Brian Butler: (46:37 - 52:04) Yeah, so my father passed away while I was in prison. It was an amazing story with my dad. He met me in prison and wanted to meet with me.   And I hadn't seen my father in years, and he came to the prison lot. I had worked through the forgiveness of my dad, I think, before we met, but he came to ask my forgiveness. And I'll never forget, he said, Brian, I made the wrong choice.    My whole life, I've made the wrong choices. And I'm just really sorry. And so, it was a sweet moment with me and him.   I'm not saying that we had a, you know, it wasn't like we're father, son kind of stuff.  But when he passed away, there's no false guilt. There's no guilt.    There's nothing I'm trusting. He even actually became a minister of the Catholic Church in the place that he lived. And I believe that he came to faith in Christ and Christ alone.   So, it was really something to see that transformation in my dad, even though he was, you know, he saw a lot of stuff. But I truly believe that the father entered his heart. My mom, shortly after I was incarcerated, after that experience at the jail, started to come around a little bit and supported me.   You know, and I think the biggest thing that helped me in or helped our relationship in the prison was I didn't ask for things. When I was able to talk to my mother, I was able to say, how are you? And just kind of relieve her of the burden.   It was bad enough that her son was in prison. It was bad enough that she had to see her son on the evening news and everything that I put her through. I just wanted to mend that and just to comfort my mom and just love my mom the best possible.    So, our relationship really grew through those days. And it's so amazing. So, here's a woman that said, you're dead to me, and I don't want around anymore.    In 2019, my mom and stepdad have been since Indiana, and they're aging now. They're in their early 80s. But in 2019, we had a family conversation, and she wanted to move to Peoria, Illinois, so that my wife and I could take care of her and him in their old age.    So, they lived two miles away from us, and we were able to meet my mom. It's crazy. And just to be able to be in a relationship with her and to be able to care for her, getting ready to take a trip down to Kentucky to see her sister, and all that entails.   So, it's just been a wonderful blessing for a relationship. My mom knows God's real because he's changed me and my children. While I didn't beat them over the head with the Bible, they know that God is real because they've seen him work in me.   They've all struggled with addiction and all those kinds of things. But I'm happy to say that all three of them are clean and sober. Right now, my son followed in my footsteps.    Unfortunately, he grew up, even though I wasn't there. I was divorced from his mother when he was two years old. But he always looked to me, and he always saw the tough guy and the gangster.   And I think that's what he really wanted to be. He ended up getting a prison sentence, and he spent 13 years in prison. And he is getting out in February.    So that's encouraging. But all three of them are clean and sober, and those relationships have been restored. Pam and I, you can imagine, Pam had no idea about addiction or lifestyle or gangsters.   So I am completely off the rails, foreign to her.  But she tells me all the time, she doesn't know that old guy. All she knows is me.   And she can hear stories, and she can hear testimonies. And of course, my mom is very open to share anything at a family dinner about Brian, which I'm like, please, mom, don't talk. But she hears those stories, and she just says, I don't know that man.    I don't know who that was. This is the man I'm married to. And so, it's just, we have a wonderful relationship.    She's my biggest supporter, my biggest fan. We pray together. We love the Lord together.  It's really something. I'm not saying that we haven't had a lot of hurt because my kids have been in addiction. I'm saying it hasn't been really, really hard.   But through those sufferings, that's how Jesus makes it more like him, through those sufferings and through those hard times.  And he's given me an avenue personally to be able to help others. So, I love that scripture.    It gives us this comfort. We needed the comfort so that one day you can comfort others with that same kind of comfort. So, he's enabled me to be in a position where I can comfort other folks in addiction and build great teams here at Pathway that are ministering to the folks that we serve in a meaningful way for the Lord.    And then I've been able to serve my wife. I've been able to serve her and that's what I want to do.   Laura Dugger: (52:05 - 52:31) Oh, it is evident to see you two at church and see you two holding hands and just your gentle way of interacting with each other is even a testimony. So how incredible that God has restored so much that was broken. And even going back to your brother Mark, was he rejoicing to hear you were now walking with Jesus as your Lord and Savior?   Brian Butler: (52:32 - 54:07) Yeah, well, at first it was kind of like the prodigal son story, and he was the big brother rather than me. I think at first there was a lot of, and rightfully so, I was no good. And so, I had the hearing officer tell me one time in Springfield Illinois when I was trying to get my driver's license back, which was another God story.    And I have a driver's license after five DUIs. I had that hearing officer tell me, even though I had been clean and sober for seven years, he said, you know, talk is cheap. He said, walking it is different.   So, you come back and see me in a year and when you've walked it, then we'll have a talk about giving you a driver's license. And I've always kind of stored that in my heart with my relationship with my brother. And now after my brother has seen me walk it, we have a pretty good relationship.    We're in cahoots because I'm taking care of mom. And so, we have a pretty good relationship there. Yeah, so it's been really a miracle.    Miracles of what has happened in relationships. Now some relationships that I've had, even with family members, you know, hey, that Brian Butler is still nothing but a no-good dope dealing maniac. And we're, you know, we're done.    And that's okay. That's God's job. My job is to keep walking the walk and talking the talk and sticking close to him and not letting anything get in the way of that and doing whatever I can to restore relationships and then let God do the rest.    And so, it's been, it's hard, but good. Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (54:08 - 54:22) You are a new creation. And Brian, I know you could continue teaching us so many things. Is there any encouragement you want to share before our conversation comes to a close?   Brian Butler: (54:23 - 56:46) Yeah, I would just say if you're, I had some, when I was going through it with my daughter, I had a lot of good counselors around me.  And then I got some advice that I didn't follow. And I'm so glad that I didn't.   I certainly think that if when we meet people that are in living destructive lifestyles, or you have a child in addiction and alcoholism, and they are just burning everything down around you, absolutely to set up boundaries and to limit communication to where they're draining you to death.  But if they're still breathing, then there's still hope. And we should never forget that there's hope and that God is so much bigger, and we can trust him with them more than what we can do with them.   I struggled for years with my daughter in addiction and being up in the middle of the night, just waiting on a phone call and praying and pleading and even thinking, Lord, it would be better if she was just gone.  If you just took her, would you? It's so harrowing.   But I never cut off communication completely because when she came out of the pig pen, I'm going to run. Now there were several runs that I made that, you know, she wasn't really out of the pig pen, but I don't regret that. And my daughter will say to a lot of folks, even though inside I kind of gave up in certain times, but I didn't make the life to end.    And she'll say, my dad never gave up on me. My dad was always there for me. And so, I just want to encourage people, if they're breathing, there's still hope and you can still put up boundaries and be strong and not give in and not give money and not do all those things, but there's still hope and our hope was in Christ.   And then we can hope that he does that work and that he'll do that work in us as we're hoping him to do it in others. So that's what I would just leave with folks that are really going through it because I've been through it. I've put people through it.   It's a tangled web and there's a whole lot, but you need to be around people that are going to love you and care for you and come around to you. You need to tell the truth to other people so that you don't hide it because it will destroy you.   Laura Dugger: (56:47 - 57:22) That's so good, Brian. How special to have her daddy never give up on her. And it reflects that greater truth that our heavenly father never gives up on any of us.  And he died for us even while we were still sinners. Thank you for sharing that.   And you may be familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, Brian, what is your savvy sauce?   Brian Butler: (57:24 - 58:36) I would say my savvy sauce is living in a daytight compartment, living this life one moment at a time, one day at a time, certainly making plans for the future, certainly living that life out. But I'm going to do what the Lord wants me to do right now. And then what he wants me to do next and what he wants me to do after that.    But just really staying in that daytight compartment. You know, I teach our students all the time at Pathway Ministries, really when we come to faith, this is really simplistic, but after we come to faith in the Lord Jesus, it really is about doing the next little right thing. And then the next little right thing after that, and the next little right thing after that.   And no one does the next little right thing all the time. But when you don't do the next little right thing, you get up and do the next little right thing. Understanding that sometimes doing the next little right thing might be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life.   And so, if we stay in that daytime compartment with Jesus, he'll help us through that next little right thing.  And so that's my savvy. So, I was just staying in the moment and doing the next little right thing.   Laura Dugger: (58:37 - 59:08) Oh, I love that so much. Ryan, you are an admirable man who walks the walk, and God has gifted you with such passion and such a compelling story. So, thank you for continuing to faithfully obey him.   You are certainly shining in our community and faithfully serving our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. So, thank you for being my guest.   Brian Butler: (59:09 - 59:11) Thank you so much, Laura Dugger. We love you.   Laura Dugger: (59:11 - 1:02:28) We love you, too.   One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.    Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.    We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.    That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.    This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.    Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.    And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.    First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.    You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.    And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Christian Advice for Toxic Relationships Part 2 with Kris Reece (Episode 289)   *Disclaimer* This episode contains mature content and user discretion is suggested.   2 Timothy 3:1-5 NIV “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.”   *Transcription Below*   Kris Reece is a Christian Author, Toxic Relationship Coach, and Manipulation Tactics Specialist. Kris equips believers to escape the grip of toxic relationships—especially those shaped by guilt, confusion, or spiritual distortion. Her work empowers Christians to set biblical boundaries and walk in emotional and spiritual freedom. Connect with her on Instagram or through her website.    Thank you to our sponsor for today's episode: Sam Leman Eureka   Topics and Questions We Cover: Do you believe it's more nature or nurture or do you have any insight on why people are narcissists? Can we cut off toxic people without disobeying God? Will you share how we can forgive biblically, without tolerating further abuse?   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Podcast: 146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick 148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg 263. Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:10)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:13) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.   My returning guest for today is Kris Reece. If you didn't listen to last week's episode, I hope that you'll just press pause right now and go back to listen to part one.   After reading her amazing book, Breaking the Narcissist's Grip, I knew that we would need multiple weeks to cover this very important topic. So, we're going to dive deeper into part two today. Here's our chat.   Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Kris.   Kris Reece: (1:14 - 1:18) Thank you so much, Laura. I am so excited to be here again today.   Laura Dugger: (1:18 - 1:47) Well, I am delighted to have you back. And it was so surprising your answer to that first question last week. So, I want to unpack that a little bit further.   You were talking about so many adults who were struggling and coming for coaching that they were identifying the same thing, a relationship with a toxic mother. And so, can you paint the picture of what that actually looked like when they had that realization?   Kris Reece: (1:49 - 5:10) Well, you know, what's interesting is everybody had different realizations. Some came to them on their own. I wish I could take credit for it.   They really just came to the wow, I didn't realize just how much my mother keeps coming into this. And then others were really, you know, we had to kind of dig a little bit deeper in terms of what happened in childhood. And again, I'm not the type of counselor who would just sit back and look for excuses to blame somebody's parents.   Absolutely not. But when we start to kind of take a step back into the past to understand what's happening in the present, that's when all of that began to unfold. So, one woman in particular, oh, Laura, it broke my heart.   Absolutely. So, she was struggling with a very difficult marriage. She had no idea what she wanted to do with her life.   And she, honestly, from the way what she said, she says, I don't even know who I am. And when we started to unpack the relationship with her mother and her father and what life looked like when she was growing up, everything was all about pleasing her mother. And I don't mean in a healthy way where, of course, we want to please and get the approval of our parents.   It was to such an extreme that if she didn't speak the way her mother wanted her to, if she didn't comply the way her mother wanted her to, the mother would then manipulate. She would start to cry. Why are you destroying me?   Do you not see what you're doing to me? And then if that didn't work, if the daughter even tried to, and I got to tell you, from what I hear from this young lady, like maybe the age of 12, she had some pretty healthy responses that she was trying to take to this woman. And when that didn't go well, the mother wouldn't talk to her for a week, a week.   She wouldn't even cook for her. She wouldn't do anything. She wouldn't even acknowledge her presence.   So, this woman grew up believing that I now have to perform. And what's worse, she developed these codependent traits because she learned how to be a mood monitor. I have to now tiptoe around what is mom going to think.   What is mom going to say? And no longer is she now doing what's right. She's doing what feels right, meaning what's going to keep me out of trouble?   What's going to keep mom most happy with me? And she knew all of this was dysfunctional. But at the same time, of course, you're talking about a 12-year-old, and obviously these traits were going on long before that.   She's just learning how to cope. She's not there to parent the parent. But so now that's what she was taught and caught.   So, it's not like the mother came out of the bedroom every morning and said, hey, I'm going to teach you how to perform for me. I'm going to teach you how to monitor all of my moods. She didn't do that.   Everything was caught. So now her default mechanism is giving in to problematic relationships, tiptoeing around, avoiding things. So that's where the issue in her marriage then came in, and it started to get unpacked when we discovered what relationship with mom was like.   Laura Dugger: (5:12 - 5:39) Okay, and that's always so helpful to hear a true story, how that played out. I'm hearing sometimes maybe if you have a parent who's a narcissist, maybe that's likely that the child will experience codependency. But then also, do you see it as a typical generational pattern?   Let's say if you had a narcissistic mother, a lot of times she'll raise a narcissistic son and so on.   Kris Reece: (5:41 - 8:02) Unfortunately, yes. So guaranteed narcissism? Absolutely not. Guaranteed dysfunctional traits? Yes, unfortunately. So how can I be in an unhealthy environment and walk out healthy?   Unless I've done some work to recognize what the unhealthy patterns were. This is how I, I don't want to say contributed as in the child is at fault, but this is what I did to cope. And what helped me survive back then is actually killing me today.   So, unless a child, an adult child is going to begin to do that work, then yes, they're going to continue to carry some dysfunctional traits. Is it automatic that they will become narcissists? No, no, no, no, absolutely not.   Can they? Sure. Absolutely.   So, when we talk about how narcissism gets developed, it's especially through raising, it's either an overly attentive, overly admiring type of parent. Like, you know, Timmy can do no wrong. He's just wonderful and awesome and this and that.   So yeah, chances are Timmy's going to kind of step out of that with some bit of a narcissism. So, when the world smacks him around a little bit and says, Hey, you're not so awesome. He's either going to wake up and say, well, maybe I'm not, or he's now going to make those people the problem.   So narcissistic parents have a tendency to project all of their stuff onto the child. So, I, I encountered this one, one daughter that I worked with whose mother was a narcissist and whose brother now was becoming a narcissist. And what she would do is she would tell the son, this is why your teacher is picking on you.   He's jealous of you. This is why, you know, your, um, your friend doesn't call you anymore. It's because he's jealous of you.   So, she is priming this young man to be a narcissist because when he gets out into the world, not everybody's going to comply to that message. And now he's going to have the language to make them the problem. So, the son was a narcissist, the daughter, not so much, but she had a lot of dysfunctional traits that came as a, as a result of that relationship.   Laura Dugger: (8:03 - 8:16) Okay. So, then kind of the age-old question, do you have any insight for how much narcissism is nature versus nurture? What are we born with versus what are we trained into?   Kris Reece: (8:18 - 11:07) That's an awesome question because science shows us that narcissism is both. It's nature and nurture nature in the sense that we're all born selfish. We're all, we are all born sinful, but nurture, which implies the environment, plays a stronger role in whether those traits are actually going to develop into full blown narcissism or maybe even narcissistic personality disorder, which is far more rare than people think it is.   So, when we look at genetics, so that would be nature, twin and family studies actually suggest about 40 to 60% of narcissistic traits are hereditary, meaning that some people are born with temperaments that make them more prone to arrogance, low empathy, or emotional sensitivity. I don't know that I agree with that entirely, but let's move on to the nurture part. This is your environment.   So, the other 40 to 60% they say come from upbringing, things like overindulging or a highly critical parent. So, it can actually be both sides. So, it's not only the overindulgence, but it's that highly critical parent that is always criticizing but never offering any structured support.   It also comes from that inconsistent affection, conditional love. That's a huge one. I will love you if.   It can also come from childhood trauma, which can actually spawn from neglect or being overly praised for their performance rather than their character. So, in other words, genetics may load the gun, but environment pulls the trigger. So, what starts as survival, I'll never be hurt again, can now grow into pride, control, and entitlement.   So, I believe personally it has more to do with nurture. Science will say there's a strong mix of both. I think it's more nurture.   I do believe that we all have a temperament. You look at any children in your family. I don't know how many kids you have, but you'll see that even from a very young age, they all have very unique personalities from a very young age.   But within that temperament, we're all going to have our strengths and our weaknesses. So, some temperaments may be a little bit more prone to pride that does not guarantee narcissism because I've seen plenty of people with that temperament operate in their strengths as opposed to their weaknesses. So, I think a lot of it has to do more with nurture.   Laura Dugger: (11:08 - 11:38) That is incredibly helpful. And as people have been listening to this conversation and last week's conversation, let's just say if they open up to us and say, I've identified I am in relationship with a narcissist, what's the most helpful thing we can do and the most hurtful way we could respond, especially as Jesus followers?   Kris Reece: (11:39 - 13:30) I know we touched on this lightly last week. The first step is to shift your focus. That focus has got to come off the narcissist and back onto yourself and Jesus and Jesus through you.   You're not going to be able to change them. You are not going to be able to change them. If you're taking notes, I want you to write that down.   You cannot change them. Highlight it. Asterisk it. Circle it. Do whatever you need to do. You cannot change them, but you can choose how you respond.   So, when you stop trying to manage their behavior and start letting God heal your heart, everything changes. So, where we can begin is by saying, Lord, show me. Show me where I've lost my peace and help me take it back.   Show me where I have reacted inappropriately. Show me the entire truth in this situation because this is where real freedom is going to come in, not in fixing them, but in allowing God to restore you. So, you're saying what's the best thing they can do and what's the worst thing they can do?   The worst thing you can do is continue to focus on them. I know you're a narcissist. I know you're doing this.   I see you. Don't, don't, don't. It's going to steal your peace because remember, they've got default tactics.   They're either going to start love bombing and you're going to think, oh, this was great. I changed them. You didn't change them.   They just changed their tactic or they're going to start gaslighting you and they're going to start twisting scripture and they're going to start throwing it back at you. And that, that sense of enlightenment, if I'm allowed to use that word in this sense, that you're so enlightened to what they're doing and what's going on is going to get robbed so quickly. So, shift your focus.   Laura Dugger: (13:31 - 13:53) Okay. And then one step further, let's say it's our friend who comes to us. So then one step removed. Basically, even as the church, how can we respond to that person in a way that's actually helpful to them? And how can we respond in ways that are unintentionally, but still hurtful?   Kris Reece: (13:54 - 17:21) Yeah. So, this is so important. And I wish more people in the church would hear this because some of the worst gas lighters are standing behind the pulpit.   We put spiritual band-aids over demonic hemorrhages and we actually begin to make the situation worse. So, the most helpful thing that you can do is to believe them. Listen without judgment.   Now, I understand that there are a lot of people out there, and especially with that term narcissist. You have a pastor that's sitting down with a woman who comes into the office and says, my husband is a narcissist. We all just bristle.   I bristle when somebody comes in and says, this one's a narcissist. My first question is always going to be this. What makes you say that?   I don't automatically correct them. I don't criticize. And I believe them to the degree that they're going through something.   Doesn't mean I have to believe them to the degree of what they would consider the diagnosis because that's irrelevant. But what we do need to believe is that they are going through something. And they need to be listened to without judgment.   Now, if something's wrong, if something needs to be corrected, we can do that later. Are we really going to bring any harm to somebody by delaying a little bit of correction while we make a proper assessment? So, if we're going to default to either one, whether it's not believing them or believing them, please believe them.   Just be that safe place. Because people in narcissistic relationships, true narcissistic relationships, are already doubting themselves. They are already questioning their own reality.   What they need is safety, not more spiritual pressure. So, we want to avoid things like spiritual bypassing. And this is where we just kind of stick scriptures on that emotional hemorrhage.   Oh, just forgive. Oh, just move on. Don't you think you're overreacting?   Have you prayed on this? Are you giving more sex? You know, we throw all of this.   And that kind of advice actually is the gaslighting that keeps someone trapped in a shame cycle because they walk out of there. I can't tell you the number of times men and women alike, they walk out from a Christian counselor or a church environment, and they feel worse than when they came in. They're not even looking for somebody to say, yes, he's awful. He's the devil. You are so wonderful. That's not even what they're looking for.   They're looking for some semblance of sanity. So, what you want to do is just remind them that Jesus never asked them to confuse love with tolerating abuse. Our job is not to fix their situation but just be that safe place that they need right in that moment.   That's really helpful. I'm a little passionate about that because it really angers me how the church is handling all of this stuff. We do a lot of messages on forgiveness, but we don't do any messages on accountability.   We're not doing any messages on repentance and owning our part. So, it leaves the one who's already assuming the responsibility to try to assume some more.   Laura Dugger: (17:24 - 20:01) And I think that's so helpful for, like you said, for pastors, for people in the church, for biblical counselors, because that can sound great, biblical counseling and giving scripture. But practically, sometimes that, I mean, Satan, even when he was tempting Jesus, used scripture, but twisted it and manipulated it. Not saying that biblical counselors are doing that, but that we can... Not intentionally, but yeah. That's a good clarification because we can misapply that.   And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need. Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist.   That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched. Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty.   This ministry reaches millions of people every year, and thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank.   To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today. My desire would be the same as yours, that people could come to the church as part of their healing.   But I think that is helpful. We need to be aware of where we've gotten this wrong. And it is something you even wrote about in the foreword of your book.   You said that in Christian community, forgiveness is often misapplied as tolerance for abuse. So, is there anything else you'd want to add to that, especially sharing ways that we can forgive biblically without tolerating further abuse?   Kris Reece: (20:02 - 21:54) Absolutely. But first, I have to give credit to the incredible Gloria Gaynor. She was the one who actually wrote that powerful line in the foreword.   Forgiveness is often misapplied for tolerating abuse. And she captured something that I see so often in the church. Many Christians were taught that forgiving someone means keeping them close, pretending the offense never happened, and reconciling and trusting again.   But biblical forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing. Because forgiveness releases the offender from your judgment. Reconciliation requires their repentance.   You would be very foolish; I would be very foolish to reconcile in a relationship where there was no repentance. And Jesus commands us to forgive. Matthew 18, 22.   But he never told us to keep giving access to someone who refuses to turn from sin. He even set boundaries with those who are unrepentant. So why aren't we?   And I think that starts to become this Christian badge of honor, like we're somehow martyrs that we keep tolerating this abuse all in the name of love instead of setting boundaries. Because the truth is, at the end of the day, if I can be perfectly honest here, a lot of times it's not about us being loving, it's about us being afraid. Us being afraid to set those boundaries, afraid of their reaction, afraid of confrontation.   It's not about love. So yes, we can fully forgive and still create distance. But now we have to deal with the fallout of what that distance creates.   And that's stuff that if we turn our focus to Jesus, he begins to do in us. It's glorious if you actually allow it to unfold.   Laura Dugger: (21:56 - 22:24) Wow. And you've seen firsthand, I'm sure, so many miracles take place. But then you've said last time you're a practical gal.   So, as a believer, let's say if someone is in a relationship with a narcissist, that that's their parent or their spouse and they're unrepentant and it's been awful. Is there a way that as Christians they can cut off the relationship without disobeying God?   Kris Reece: (22:26 - 27:24) Absolutely. So, title is not going to trump toxicity. So, when the narcissist is a parent or a spouse, the answer isn't going to always be to just walk away.   It's to walk wisely. Because freedom doesn't always mean I got to say goodbye. It means I'm no longer being controlled by you.   And sometimes that's going to require distance or maybe even no contact for a season. Other times it just means a little bit more of an emotional detachment. And I don't mean that in a way that somebody might interpret as like I'm just going to now be cold to you.   But what I mean is that emotional detachment is that my identity, my worth is not wrapped up in your opinion of me. It's not wrapped up in your words. So, I have to have that emotional detachment so I can walk boldly in my purpose, in my identity.   And I can clearly set boundaries within the relationship. So, either way we have to look at this as the goal isn't revenge. The goal is not punishment.   It's peace. It's clarity. It's stewardship.   And that's where a lot of people get tossed up because we think, oh, you know, this is my spouse. This is my mother. And, okay, let's kind of separate those a little bit because the spousal relationship is the only covenantal relationship.   So, if your spouse has some narcissistic traits, meaning they're a little bit manipulative, they lie sometimes, they gaslight you, all that stuff, is that grounds for divorce? Unfortunately, no, no. You know, when it starts to venture into abuse, should we be getting away?   Yes. Every situation is going to be different to somebody listening right now that's going to bring tremendous relief to someone else. They're going to be very angry that I just said that because they want that way out.   But if God is not releasing you right now, I promise you it's because He's looking to do a work in you. And He's allowing this to stay right now. But, again, that is not an excuse to tolerate abuse.   But we also have to be careful what we call abuse. You don't make my breakfast the way I like and then you laugh at me. That's not abuse.   That's just a kind of faulty character. So, we really have to be careful as to what we label abuse. I know we're kind of getting down a little bit of a rabbit trail here.   But I know this is a very sensitive topic for most because some will say, no, the only biblical release for marriage is infidelity. And others will recognize that God does give concession for abuse. He's not calling you to stay in an abusive situation.   But we need to be careful what we do call abuse. So, walking away from the spouse is not as easy as walking away from a parent. You know, a parent, it's a little bit easier, but we still want to be able to guard our heart and understanding, am I walking away because I'm punishing you, because I don't want to deal with you, because I can't stand you, or dare I even say there's hatred on my heart for you.   That we really have to do a self-check. But if we're walking away because we have to start protecting our peace and start stewarding everything God's given to us, whether that's our peace, our heart, our purpose, then that's biblical. Because I think it's more society tells us, no, no, no, we need to do what our parents say.   No, no, no, we need to live next door to our parents. No, no, no, we're not allowed to detach from them. Well, that's not what the Bible says.   You know, I look back over the Bible, and I'm just like, there are so many stories of people who, you know, kind of left their parents behind, whether for whatever reasons. Let's just say they journeyed on, and they never saw them again. You know, it wasn't like I have to live right next door to you.   But a lot of these parents will put their own rules in these relationships. And if you don't comply, well, now somehow the adult child is the problem. So again, sorry, I'm going down a few rabbit trails.   But this is a very passionate topic of mine, because there's so many nuances to it. And I wish I could just say that it's so easy as saying, just walk away. You know, you go to a lot of online resources, and they'll say, oh, you're with a narcissist?   Just leave. Just go no contact. It's not that easy, and it's not that biblical.   But sometimes it is. But here's what I do know, is that freedom isn't about always leaving them. It's about no longer losing yourself to them.   Laura Dugger: (27:26 - 28:19) That is good. And I think you've drawn it out clearly, that difference with it's a little bit easier to understand with a parent-child relationship. I'd love to dive into the spousal relationship, because that discernment is really tricky.   And like you said, it's so different from one situation to the next. I think of three other incredible women who have also been guests on the podcast. Because you can do a deep dive and listen to Dr. Diane Langberg, Leslie Vernick, and Stacey Womack, where we do discuss a lot of this. But Kris, I'd really value your opinion, too, to also help with that discernment. In the spousal covenant, how can you identify when there is abuse versus just some of those tendencies that you mentioned?   Kris Reece: (28:20 - 33:06) How do you differentiate? So, there's going to be a spiritual and then a practical approach to it. The first one is spiritual.   You have to be prayerful. Because a lot of, let's just say women in this case, a lot of women who struggle with codependency, they will see abuse where there may just be personality differences. There may be some character flaws.   There may be differences, some behavioral issues. But because she's been so afraid to speak up for so long that she's now internalizing it as I feel abused. So, I had one situation where this woman would constantly call her husband abusive.   So, she would say something like, you know, if you're going to keep talking to me this way, then I think we need to create a little bit of distance between us. And what he meant was, like, I need to go in the next room. Because, you know, you're really reactive here, and I don't like the way you're talking to me.   And she would say, “I'm tired of being abused by you.” And he would ask, “what are you referring to? What do you mean by abusive?”   And she would go off on these generalities. Now, is that to say that a woman like that isn't abused just because she can't put language to it? No, that's not true.   But we also have to be careful. Has our upbringing trained us to see abuse where there isn't? So, I just want to put that as a caveat.   That's not always the case. And a lot of the counselors that I've been friends with and I connect with, don't experience that a lot. For some reason, that's a lot of the women that God has sent to me.   I don't know why. I don't know why. But a lot of the ones that are interpreting abuse or exaggerating abuse, I should say, where it isn't as abusive as they're saying it is.   I need to step back a little bit because this is probably angering somebody right now. They're like, no, I'm being abused. I have no doubt.   I have no doubt about that. But there are going to be some, some of us, who will interpret abuse the wrong way. So, I need you to be very, very prayerful and careful with how we use that word because I personally think the word abuse is even more abused than the word narcissist because it's very convenient.   Unless I've got physical scars, unless I hear somebody's spouse constantly yelling at you and berating you, I can't quantify that. I can't see it. I don't know.   But I do know that there is something that's taking place within you and something that's definitely taking place within the dynamic. So now let's take a big giant step back. How do I know that this is abusive?   Somebody is constantly invalidating you, meaning they are questioning your motives. They are accusing you of things that you're not doing. They are taking away your support.   They are making themselves your lifeline, meaning they're kind of isolating you. They're saying unkind and untrue words. They are unrepentant, unrepentant people.   These people are abusive because they're going to look to constantly justify their behavior. If you can't have a healthy, open dialogue with somebody who, when they make mistakes, maybe they'll come back and repent later, then you are likely in more of an abusive situation than you are a healthy dynamic. And don't get me wrong.   We've all got our dysfunctions. I even had a conversation with my husband just yesterday. And he said to me, he's like, honey, are you sure that's the most healthy way to be interacting right now?   And I didn't even realize that I had fallen back into an old pattern. It was temporary, but we're able to call each other out on certain things. When you don't have that kind of healthy dynamic where you can now both be accountable to each other, one has the power in the relationship, it's likely abusive.   Laura Dugger: (33:06 - 34:26) By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them.   We heard all of that and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading!   You articulate things so well, Kris, and there's a million more questions I could ask you, but I want to respect your time. So, I know that there's places we can go after this conversation to just continue learning from you.   So, can you share where we could head after this chat?   Kris Reece: (34:27 - 34:40) Absolutely. Well, I'd love it if you would head on over to the website. That is krisreece.com.   It's Kris with a K, Reece with a C. There you'll find a whole bunch of resources, free downloads. My new book is there.   So that would be the best place to go.   Laura Dugger: (34:41 - 34:58) Wonderful. We'll link to that again in the show notes for today's episode. And as you remember from last time, we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, it's my final question for you today, Kris. What is your savvy sauce?   Kris Reece: (34:59 - 41:20) Absolutely. So, my Savvy Sauce is learning to trade people's expectations for God's direction. Because peace always follows purpose.   You know, for so long I thought success, even spiritual success, meant being busy, being available, being constantly on. And honestly, if I can dare confess, fixing people. But the truth is that burnout's not holy.   Productivity isn't purpose. And before now, before I say yes to anything, I ask this one question. Is this an assignment from God, an expectation from people, or a diversion from the devil?   And that single filter has brought so much clarity and peace into my life. And I know we're running low on time, but there's something that's really touching on my heart. May I speak to it?   Please. Because, you know, a lot of times we don't, as people who have been in toxic relationships, we have no filters anymore. We just allow everything that they're bringing in to just invade our soul.   We don't have any external filters. We don't filter our mouth. We don't filter our mind.   We don't filter anything. And we don't stop and ask, wait a minute, hold on a second. Is this coming from God?   And this is why it's not so easy to say, hey, you know, that toxic relationship with your mother, just leave. Just go no contact. Move five states away.   Or no, you need to honor and obey. You need to just stay put. There is no hard and fast rule.   Now, there is one. We are called to honor, but how we interpret that honor, that needs to be biblical, not according to mom's standards. So instead of just doing away with all filters, I want to be able to put those proper filters in place and saying, is this from God?   So, let's take the relationship, for example. In my previous marriage, I was married to a narcissist. I learned very early on in the marriage that there was a problem.   I had no idea it was narcissism. I didn't even get language for that until years after the divorce. But very early on in the marriage, and I said, okay, Lord, what do you want me to do?   Because everything in my flesh said just run, just run. And he had me stay for nine years. He had me stay.   And I went through so many different phases. But what I recognized is in those nine years, God did an amazing transformative work within me that in hindsight I recognized he couldn't have done, or probably, yeah, he couldn't have done because I would have just moved on. So, I needed to be in that situation to be on my knees.   I needed to be in the midst of it to be in prayer. Because if I just left, that would have been a form of avoidance. So, in that case, it wasn't as easy.   And according to some people, I probably would have had a biblical release to leave. Now, eventually, it was an obvious biblical release. I mean, there was no doubt I was free to leave this relationship.   And that's when I knew that God had released me. So, we want to be able to examine, okay, God, do you have me in this for a reason? Is it for a reason and a season?   What are you doing inside of this? We make the assumption as people that God would never want me to suffer like this. Is that true?   Because I suffered for nine years, and it brought me to a greater level of faith and a greater level of glory, so that suffering served his purpose. So, the same thing is true for a parent relationship. God could have you in a situation where, no, you don't have a choice to leave.   But that doesn't mean that you don't find freedom from that person, even if you can't leave. And that's why the book is called Breaking the Narcissist's Grip. It's not called Let's Go No Contact because I just want to be able to break that stronghold that you have over me, even if I am still present.   So now there are going to be other times where Satan is now going to send toxic people into your life, and you're going to think that it's your responsibility. Oh, God has put me here. No, Satan hand-delivered them.   And your job is to apply 2 Timothy 3.1. In the last days, there will be people who are lovers of self, proud, arrogant, boastful, and that list goes on. And what does God tell us to do at the end of that scripture? Avoid such people.   So now Satan sends in a diversion, and we decide that we're going to play Holy Spirit, and we're going to be the ones to be Jesus. We're just going to show them Jesus. No, the enemy is successful, slowly trying to destroy you.   And that's where we have to now put that filter on. So, when you go back, this is a very long answer to your savvy sauce. It's I have to be able to trade what people's expectations or even my expectations would be for what God wants in that moment.   Does he want me to stay in this relationship? What is he looking to do in me and through me? Does he want me out of that relationship?   Am I now codependent? Am I trying to stay in this longer than he called me to? And I'm now suffering the consequences of my choices.   So, in summary, I guess you could say when we stop chasing approval and start walking in alignment with what God wants from us, our life gets a whole lot lighter.   Laura Dugger: (41:22 - 41:57) Wow, Kris, I'm so grateful that you shared all of that and unpacked your answer and let us in on a glimpse of your story. Thank you for walking faithfully through that. And then for modeling that it's it wasn't a black and white answer, but at one time he had you stay and one time he set you free to go.   And I just really appreciate all that you've shared with us. You have an uncanny gift of speaking truth and love. So grateful for you.   Kris Reece: (41:58 - 42:01) Thank you. I greatly appreciate that. Thank you, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (42:03 - 45:44) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Every altar was pointing to one moment. But what happens when the sacrifice becomes you? Pastor Eric Hansen delivers this Easter message unpacking what God did before you ever had the chance to try. Come find out why the grave being empty means your life doesn't have to be.Scriptures referenced in this message:· 1 Corinthians 15:45-58 (NLT)· Hebrews 10:10 (NLT)· Hosea 6:6 · Romans 5:8 (NLT)· John 15:13-14 (NIV) · John 19:30 (NLT)· Romans 6:23 (NLT) · 1 Corinthians 1:25 (NIV)· Romans 12:1-2 (NLT)· John 10:10 (NLT) · 2 Corinthians 5:17· Isaiah 61:3· Matthew 28:1-7a (NLT)Learn more about salvation, info about Destiny Church, or how to give by visiting our website.Real | Relevant | Relationship

This weekend, Pastor Jon Chasteen brings an encouraging message about how the blood of Christ still works and impacts our identity, our security, and our ability to step out in faith. We pray this message serves as a reminder of how much God loves you and what He did just to be with you! Scripture references: Hebrews 10:11-18 (NLT) 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (NIV) Romans 8:10-11 (NLT) Connect With Us: To learn more about Victory Church and to get connected, visit us at https://victory.church/ Worship Gathering Times: To see locations & worship gathering times, visit https://victory.church/locations/ Prayer: We believe in praying big prayers to a big God and expecting big results. If you're in need of prayer, our team would be honored to pray with you. You can reach us for prayer at https://victory.church/prayer Giving: At Victory, we steward God's resources well and with radical generosity. If you'd like to give toward the mission of Victory Church, visit https://victory.church/give/ Follow Us: OKC Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victorychurchokc/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/victorychurchok Edmond Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victoryedmond/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/victory.churchEDM Grapevine (Texas) Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victorychurchgrapevine/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089341962919

Toxic Relationships: Recognizing Narcissism in a Spouse, Parent, or Child with Kris Reece (Episode 288)   *Disclaimer* This episode contains mature content and user discretion is suggested.    Proverbs 27:6 AMP “Faithful are the wounds of a friend [who corrects out of love and concern], But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful [because they serve his hidden agenda].”   *Transcription Below*   Kris Reece is a Christian Author, Toxic Relationship Coach, and Manipulation Tactics Specialist. Kris equips believers to escape the grip of toxic relationships—especially those shaped by guilt, confusion, or spiritual distortion. Her work empowers Christians to set biblical boundaries and walk in emotional and spiritual freedom. Connect with her on Instagram or through her website.    Thank you to our sponsor for today's episode: Midwest Food Bank   Topics and Questions We Cover: In your opinion, can you be a Christian and a narcissist? Will you share a few of the toxic tactics narcissists use for power and control in relationships?  Will you define codependency for us and also reactive abuse and trauma bond?   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Podcast: 146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick 148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg 263. Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:10)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.   My captivating guest for this week is Kris Reece. She has an abundance of resources available online, and she's actually recently had this book published, Breaking the Narcissist's Grip. I cannot recommend this episode enough to you to find out about toxic relationships, whether that's with your parents or your adult children or your spouse. She's going to do a deep dive into narcissism. Help us understand it, help us identify those people in our lives, and most importantly, offer some hope, which is only possible through Jesus Christ. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kris.   Kris Reece: (1:31 - 1:34) Thank you so much for having me. I am so blessed to be here.   Laura Dugger: (1:34 - 1:48) Well, I am so grateful to have you, and you are in a unique line of work that is so needed. How did you get into this work of offering Christian advice for toxic relationships?   Kris Reece: (1:50 - 4:16) Well, I'll give you the short version of that story. So, I had been in the fitness industry for a good 20 plus years, and I went back to school for counseling and theology because I really wanted to be able to help people emotionally and mentally as opposed to just physically, right?   So, as I started to counsel people, there were women that were coming to me from all walks of life and all ages. I'm talking 16 years old all the way up to 86 years old. And no matter what their issue was, no matter what they were struggling with, they were coming to me for purpose or just growing in their faith. It all came down to one thing. And Laura, I think this might surprise you just as much as it surprised me. Toxic mothers. I was floored. And this wasn't the kind of thing where now we're just blaming mom for everything. No, this started to get revealed on all of the dysfunctions that were taking place within their relationship with their mother and how it had impacted them in so many areas of their lives. So, I said, “Lord, I need to dive deeper into this.” Now, I had already come out of, unfortunately, several toxic narcissistic relationships, not with my mother. So, that was very foreign to me. So, I started to dive deeper into how those same traits applied. And it was sad and it was very scary. So, I started teaching more on that.   And then they started coming out of the woodwork. But what about my husband? What about my daughter? What about my boss? What about my... And it was just like a flood. And it reached a point where, Laura, I got to confess to you. I took this to the Lord and I said, please don't send me. I don't want to do this. This is toxic. It's like you're just dealing with this toxicity all day long. And once I began to rest in, not just talking about the toxic relationships, but understanding where His heart was in it and the healing that He wants, not only for the toxic people, but those weren't the ones that were coming to me, the ones that were affected and infected by it, is when my heart started to shift. I said, “okay, God, all right, send me.” And here we are. Many, many years later.   Laura Dugger: (4:16 - 4:41) Well, you've done some incredible work. And I am shocked by that answer. Can you clarify too with the toxic mothers? That's not speaking to the mom who's trying her best asking the Lord for help and yet making mistakes. Would you consider them as mothers who are narcissists or does toxic embrace a wider?   Kris Reece: (4:41 - 6:01) Toxic can embrace a much wider spectrum. It could be borderline personality disorder, even a lot of codependent traits. If they're not harnessed properly or surrendered to the Lord, it can be very toxic to our relationship. You know, you're dealing with the guilt and the manipulation. No, we are not in any way talking about a mother who's made some mistakes, hands up, who's surrendering all this to the Lord and really just trying to find her way, you know, regardless of whether it's a newborn, an infant, a teenager or an adult child.   That's not what I'm referring to as a toxic mother. And some of them do struggle because it's so common for, I guess, young adults at this point to just be like, my mom's toxic because your mother had an opinion, because your mother is trying to get a little bit more time with you. Now, all of a sudden she's toxic. So, the label is unfortunate, but no, we're not referring to that type of mother. We're talking about the ones that have been approached lovingly and gently and are still standing firm in their manipulation, their guilt, their no, this is my way or the highway, their distorted view of scripture. I don't care if you're two or 42, you're called to obey me. That's the kind of toxic mother we're talking about.   Laura Dugger: (6:01 - 6:13) That is helpful. And then just to zero in on that term, narcissist, can you just help us understand what characteristics define a narcissist?   Kris Reece: (6:14 - 8:00) Yeah, absolutely. So, at its core, narcissism is less about confidence and it's more about this distorted sense of self. And that distorted sense is what damages relationships. Psychologically, narcissism can actually be marked by three pillars.   Number one is an exaggerated sense of self-importance. They quite honestly believe that the world revolves around them. Two is a deep need for admiration. They crave validation and praise, and we call that supply. So, if you're giving it to them, you're on their good side. You're not, you're on the bad side. And then lastly is their lack of empathy. This is a true hallmark of narcissism. But I know you didn't ask this, but we kind of go down a little bit of a rabbit trail.   Now that narcissists are starting to catch on to what these traits look like, they're doing what we call performative empathy. So, they're looking and they're saying all the right words. One of my, I love to say is they got the words, they ain't got the music. So, you really have to understand what true empathy looks like, but they lack empathy. So, and then what happens is from those traits are going to flow three roots, entitlement, arrogance, and manipulation. They twist everything and it's all about them. And one of the things that we need to understand is that a one-time selfish act doesn't make someone a narcissist. I've said some things that, oh boy, that I need to repent of. It doesn't make somebody a narcissist, but a lifestyle of self-protective empathy, lacking behavior at the expense of others. Yeah. Raise the red flag.   Laura Dugger: (8:01 - 8:22) That's helpful. That even shows us the difference between a little self-absorbed or mistakes made and a narcissist. But then I'm also curious as we're raising children, do these traits show up early in life or when are they usually identifiable?   Kris Reece: (8:23 - 10:25) That's a great question. One that I don't think you're ever going to be able to get a solid answer from anyone on, because narcissistic traits, while they don't just appear out of nowhere, we can say that they're formed in childhood. And we can say that probably almost every child is a bit narcissistic. I mean, we don't get like the terrible mind, mind twos from nowhere. I mean, as children, as human beings, I mean, even scripture tells us we are innately selfish. Our heart is deceptively wicked. So, the point of childhood is for the parents to now pull that out of the child, to grow that out. Right. And a lot of times that doesn't take place. So, what we have to understand is that the roots usually form in childhood, but the fruit shows up later in life.   So, in childhood, you may notice things like entitlement, this extreme sensitivity to criticism, but kids, like we said, are naturally self-focused. So, that's actually going to be part of their normal development. So, kids are self-centered by nature, but narcissism becomes very concerning when someone never grows out of it. So, when we start to see by the teen years, you see that pattern take place and how they handle correction, how they handle empathy and accountability. And if empathy isn't growing, but entitlement is, oh, we've got a pretty big sign. So, now by adulthood, those narcissistic traits, they just become unmistakable.   You see the manipulation, the blame shifting, the lack of accountability, the control, especially when life requires any type of humility. So, immaturity says, I messed up. Narcissism says, you made me do it.   Laura Dugger: (10:25 - 11:04) Oh, that's helpful. And I guess just to put parents at ease, if they are parenting, let's say tweens and teens, I'd love to hear your take on this, but something we learned in grad school was that they said, “don't freak out when your child, even when your teen does this, because a lot of times teenagers could be fitting all of the description in the DSM for multiple things.” And that is part of adolescence and going through puberty and everything. But what I hear you saying is then if that pattern continues into adulthood, especially as you're developing certain things, but lacking empathy, that's one big concern. Is that correct?   Kris Reece: (11:04 - 12:07) That is correct. That is why they don't diagnose teenagers with narcissism, because quite honestly, I would say about 98% of them would be diagnosed. So, no, that's why we don't, because a lot of teenagers are that way. So, yes, don't panic if your teenagers are acting that way. But the other thing that I would also say is don't chalk it up to a phase. It's a great opportunity to speak the truth in love. You may not think they're hearing it. You may not think they're receiving it, but we are responsible as parents for obedience, not outcome. Of course, we want the best outcome for our children possible, but we can't just chalk up those traits as, ah, they're just being teenagers. Ah, it's just a phase. No, as your parent, I need to teach you and train you out of that phase, not force you out of the phase, but I need to train you out of that phase. And then the rest is going to be up to them.   Laura Dugger: (12:07 - 12:22) That's good. Knowing who's part to own. And would you say part of that then is disciplining them and discipling them, training them in the ways that we would think of or anything that you would add for how to help train our children out of these characteristics?   Kris Reece: (12:23 - 13:39) Absolutely. So, we do want to train them in the way they're supposed to go. So, when there is entitlement, we don't chalk it up to a phase. We don't continue to give what they're expecting. So, there needs to be consequences for behavior. And I'm not talking harsh punishment, but there's two sides. So, if there is really bad behavior that needs to stop, then there needs to be a consequence for that. On the flip side, if it's behavior that could kind of be borderline, and I don't mean borderline personality, I just mean borderline in terms of is this bad or is this a phase, then it's a talking too.   Hey, why did you decide to handle your classmate in this way? What do you think could have been a better way? What was the point of your outcome? What were you hoping the outcome would be, I should say? And then starting to really guide them through that, because they're still in their very formative years in terms of processing, in terms of how to cope with things. So, if they're now going to start defaulting to patterns that maybe that was taught or caught, we really want to take that opportunity to train them out of that. And we can do that with gentleness and love. And then, of course, use consequences when necessary.   Laura Dugger: (13:40 - 13:52) That is so well summed up, Kris. I appreciate that. And then what are some types of narcissism that make it especially difficult to recognize at first?   Kris Reece: (13:53 - 16:40) Oh, my favorite one. And I say that with seeping sarcasm. Is the covert narcissist. We would call that one the quiet one. And now if you want to add another layer of complexity, the Christian covert narcissist. This one is going to be the hardest type to detect because they don't look confident. They look wounded. They use self-pity. They use guilt. They use this emotional fragility. But they're using it to control others. And what we have to recognize is covert narcissists, they don't dominate the room. They dominate your emotions. They play the victim. So, you now feel responsible for their feelings, their life, their outcome. That's a scary one.   The other one is what we call the communal or we could refer to them as more of the spiritual narcissist. This is what we would refer to as the helper or the holy one. So, they appear really generous. Big servant's heart, maybe in a serving profession. They're spiritually devoted, but it's all about image. And they're going to use the good deeds. They're going to use the faith, the ministry, or their morality as proof of their superiority. And they may quote the Bible, but they will use shame, silence, and scripture to control others.   And the other one is, this is a little bit more of the obvious one, but we often disguise this in our society. And that's the overt. This is your classic narcissist. This is the one that people recognize. They're loud, they're attention seeking, they're boastful, they're arrogant, and they are just outwardly entitled. But we often, depending on the position that they're in, in business or politics, we're like, oh, they're confident. Oh, they're good leaders. They could be classic overt narcissists. And a lot of times these narcissists really go unrecognized because they always, always start with the charm or the kindness. My favorite is the connection. They establish this connection with you. They're gonna mirror your values, your interests, and yes, even your faith. And a lot of times they appear very wounded or generous, and the whole intention is to now just disarm you. Bottom line is a lot of narcissists, they're gonna wear different masks, but at the core, they're all the same.   Laura Dugger: (16:41 - 18:35) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, and Washington, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. And make sure you check out their newest offering; the McKinley located in Pekin is a new construction addition to their platinum collection. Featuring nine-foot ceilings, large spacious layouts, beautiful finishes such as quartz countertops and garages, you won't want to miss this outstanding new property.   In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect. And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. If you want to become part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department. So, we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them. Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.   Do narcissists recognize or ever admit to being narcissists? Can they ever see that in themselves?   Kris Reece: (18:36 - 20:20) That's a great question. And that's actually two-sided. So, the one where I would say no, they don't see that in themselves. They see themselves truly as entitled, as somebody who's been given the short straw, somebody who is owed something, the victim. They honestly don't see themselves as narcissistic.   Then there's another side where they sort of see it and they actually will use that now to their advantage. See, this makes me somebody who is self-reflective. This is somebody who is, I'm willing to recognize where I've gone wrong. But the problem is, there's no depth there. You'll get generalities like, oh, I know I'm not perfect, but, and then you'll get a litany of justifications or you'll, I know I'm not perfect, but all of your sins are now laid out in detail. So, they will, if they do recognize it, they will use it to their advantage.   Now there is that final subset that does start to recognize and they see, I don't want to be this way. Wow, I've caused a lot of destruction to relationships. I do want to change. And that road is really long, really long. But I'm not, I'm not of the camp that believes that narcissists don't change. They can, if they want to. It takes a lot to recognize it. And I've seen some do.   Laura Dugger: (20:22 - 21:11) I appreciate that hope. You don't always hear that very often with this type of personality. But I think one more piece that has always been so confusing to me when loved ones have shared that they're in a relationship with someone who is a narcissist, whether that's their spouse or their parent is where I've been in friendship with people before. But they, all of their stories, no matter where they live in the world, the narcissist seems to struggle with the same things. They seem to act the same way. They're master manipulators. And I just don't understand how they all have the same playbook. And like you say, they lie even when they don't have to. So, as you've thought about this, are there any reasons why it's so similar across the board?   Kris Reece: (21:14 - 23:27) Yes, because by nature, they are, they're lazy. They don't want to put in an effort. And they're also, what word would I use to describe this? It's almost like they're aliens to empathy. So, if you could imagine an alien coming from, I don't believe in aliens, so please don't hear what I'm not saying, but let's just imagine for a moment, you know, they come on this earth and they're like, oh, I got to adapt myself to these people. I got to fit in. What do I do? So, they're going to start listening. They're going to start mimicking behaviors and they're going to start testing to see what works and what doesn't work. So, for them, now we go back to that whole childhood thing. If they've learned that the only way to get what I want is to lie, the only way to get people to see me as XYZ is to manipulate, that's what they're going to do. And they're going to do it by default.   And that's what people don't understand is that default mechanisms are so powerful that even a master manipulator could turn around and say, “you know, I really, I recognize, yeah, I do manipulate a little bit.” And then when push comes to shove, if they have not done the hard work to begin to dig and really understand where it came from, why it's there and start to develop the patterns to override it, they're going to default to the same way every single time.   And that's why they lie so easily. It's just a default. Now, I'm not saying that as an excuse, but it's a default. And what they also don't realize is that this is not just psychological. This is spiritual. Narcissism is fueled by pride, deception, and control. Is that describing anybody we know? That's the enemy to the core. So, it's not that they're all just studying the same playbook. It is that they're all influenced by the same spirit. And that's what we're struggling with.   Laura Dugger: (23:29 - 24:00) Wow. And that really, there was an aha moment, and I wrote this down, kind of what you're saying. But on page 133, you said, “it's like they're demonically inspired or at the very least, influenced.” And I think that makes so much sense. Even the insidious ways that they are cunning or crafty, that they're influenced by our enemy. That makes a lot more sense. Anything else that you would want to add to that?   Kris Reece: (24:02 - 25:36) Yes. When we look at, I hate to, I don't like to label people. But when we look at how the enemy operates, let's look at how Satan operates. Kill, steal, destroy. Control, pride, deception, manipulation. If he is now influencing these people and they are not putting up any of the barriers, they're continuing to give him a foothold. They are now walking in his purpose. So, if Satan is looking to do this to you, why wouldn't his ambassadors? They are highly influenced by his behaviors, and they don't even realize it. So, yes, we can have compassion. We can take this to prayer because any stronghold can be broken. But that's got to be done by the power of Christ.   So, we pray for their eyes to be open. We pray for them to see the wickedness of their ways and give them a desire to turn from it. But you're not going to change that. It's not going to happen, especially when it is so deeply spiritually rooted. Because a lot of times we get caught in the, well, I'm a good person. Well, I would never behave that way. If I knew I was doing that, I'd want to change. So, we think that our explanation alone is really just going to be the aha moment for the narcissist, right? So, we explain, we re-explain, we over-explain. And then what we don't realize is that now we just got caught in that trap as well. We're now playing that game on their turf and we're not going to win. We have got to hand over this spiritual battle to the Lord.   Laura Dugger: (25:37 - 25:54) Okay, so then that makes me wonder, you said that there is hope. So, how is this treatable? You've kind of let us in on a little bit of it, but also can you just share if you have ever seen someone repent or change their ways?   Kris Reece: (25:56 - 28:30) Yes, more than one. I've seen it on more than one occasion. It is a journey. It does not come from you just over loving them and just giving them passes and excuses and being more like Christ. It's usually from what I refer to as a two-by-four moment.   When God just clunks them over the head, everything is lost, everything is gone, and everything that they held so dearly, meaning everything that was holding them up. So, if you can think about narcissists, they can't function on their own. They don't have their own self-identity. They don't have their own self-discipline. They don't have any other self-regulation. They have no sense of self. So, everything is external. So, when God is looking to change somebody, guess what's going to happen? He's going to start kicking out those crutches one by one, and then they're going to get the two-by-four moment, which is that knock over the head, like that road to Damascus experience that Paul went through. It's like, hello, are we going to wake up here?   And that is when they start to have their awakening, and that is when they begin to pursue, hey, I think change might be possible. This is what happens to me. And then in that environment, if they're able to get met with then the love and the compassion, again, not the enabling, then you'll start to see that change begin to unfold. Narcissism is treatable, but not in the way people often imagine. It's not this surface-level behavioral issue. It's not getting somebody to say, I'm sorry, or getting somebody to validate you. It is a deep identity and a heart issue that is rooted in pride. And I don't know about you, there is not enough experience on the planet. I could never take somebody through that. That has got to be a God moment.   And that's where I want to just caution people sometimes, especially if we struggle with codependency, thinking that we are now responsible for these people, that maybe God planted me in their lives for such a time as this. Stop, stop, stop. Guard your heart. Allow God to heal you of what's driving you now to want to fix this person. And truly, truly, if you really love this person, pray for them, go into warfare for them, but hand them over to the Lord.   Laura Dugger: (28:32 - 28:48) Okay, so then another spiritual question, Kris, in your opinion, can someone be a Christian, a true born-again believer, and a narcissist? Ah, I love and I hate this question.   Kris Reece: (28:52 - 32:44) Hilary, you're going to love and hate my answer. Yes and no. So, in one sense, yes. In the sense that somebody can actually profess faith and faith in Christ but still live in a way that looks absolutely nothing like him. And we see this all throughout scripture. But claiming Christ and following Christ are not the same thing. And that's where I believe that there are times where it's no. You know, just because you had an altar moment where some way, somehow your belly was full, you were well rested, the music was just right, and you came to this place of, okay, I'm going to give my life to Christ at the altar, but you continued in your iniquity for the next 30 years. I really have to seriously question your salvation. But it's not my job to question someone's salvation. But I can question your walk. If I'm not seeing the fruit of that walk, I don't know that I can call you a brother or a sister. If you continue to walk in that route of pride and self-exaltation and manipulation, it's not of God. So, there's a difference between a Christian who's struggling and a Christian who's just refusing to admit any of the error of their ways. One of the questions that we really have to ask is, can a narcissist be saved? And the answer to that is absolutely. Jesus came for the broken, the blind, the hard-hearted, every single last one of them. But that transformation is going to require repentance.   So, yes, I think our hope always needs to be in, Lord, you can save them. If you saved a wretch like me, you could save them. So, now what happens is our prayer needs to now shift. Lord, give them a heart of repentance, a willingness to see themselves truthfully and surrender to your work. That's where our prayer now needs to shift. Not, Lord, get them to stop doing this, get them to stop doing that, get them out of here, move them on. Because if it is God's heart that none should perish, it should be our heart that none should perish. But all should come to repentance. So, that's where our prayer needs to be. So, yes, while there is hope, we're not mini-Jesuses. It's not going to happen. It's not our responsibility. Sometimes our responsibility is actually to step out of the way and allow them to suffer their own consequences, because that is what starts to bring a narcissist to themselves. Not always, but oftentimes. You know what it's reminding me of is the scripture in 1st or 2nd Corinthians, I can't remember, is when Paul commanded the young man who was sleeping with his stepmother to be cast out of the church, get rid of him, to send him out. And here's what he said, “Give him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh.” So, it wasn't like, get rid of him. He's a piece of dirt. We don't want anything to do with him anymore. It's like, okay, if that's the lifestyle he wants to live, then let him live it. And let Satan have his way. So, his flesh is now destroyed. Not him as a person, but his flesh is destroyed. And that's really what narcissists are. They're very fleshly people. I want what I want when I want it, and I'm going to do whatever I can to get it. So, we really want to change our prayer to the Lord, lead them to repentance.   Laura Dugger: (32:49 - 34:01) Updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them or watch them now that we're offering video rather than just audio. So, we heard all of that, and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.   Will you also share a few of the toxic tactics that narcissists typically use for power and control in relationships?   Kris Reece: (34:02 - 36:33) Yes, actually one of their favorite ones is gaslighting. And I think it's just a word that is so overused and abused, but it is so accurate because it's not just lying, it is denying, it is distorting, and it is rewriting reality with the intention to make you doubt yourself, your memory, your feelings, or even your sanity. Tell me that's not wicked. I don't know what it is. It's manipulation at its finest. And the same with love bombing, which is another one of their tactics. At the start, or not even just at the start, maybe when they recognize that you've had enough, like that's it, I'm putting my foot down, I'm setting boundaries, sometimes they'll come in with that love bombing. And what they do is they start to overwhelm you with the affection and the attention and the promises and the chores and all those things that you've been just fighting for all those years. What they're looking to do is to recreate or recreate that emotional dependency, because it's not about love to them, it's about bait. So, in their mind, they're not going, oh no, I'm losing this relationship. Let me get my act together. It's, oh no, I'm losing control. Let me get him or her back into my clutches. So, those are two of the very common ones.   Another one is projection. You want to know what a narcissist is doing? Listen to what they're accusing you of. That will tell you clearly what they've got going on. Lying, selfishness, anger, cheating, hiding, whatever it is, they want to put you on the defensive instead of facing their truth. So, what it does is it puts the spotlight on you and keeps it off them. So, those are some of the most common tactics that they're going to use. And it's on a spectrum. They will do it to different degrees. They'll do it in different ways to different relationships. But they're always going to do what has worked in the past. So, again, once your eyes start to open, now it becomes more difficult. And now their tactics start to change just a little bit. Remember, they're the alien. They're here. They've now got to figure this out. They're like, oh, this isn't working anymore. So, they're going to try to figure out what does work. And that's where you need to be very careful. Know them by their fruit. Fruit takes time to develop.   Laura Dugger: (36:35 - 36:45) Okay. Even that term gaslighting, I think it can be hard to understand. Can you give an example of what that would look like in a relationship?   Kris Reece: (36:46 - 37:50) Yeah, absolutely. So, you can go to, let's say, your spouse and you tell them, you know, when you said this to me, it really hurt my feelings. An obvious form of gaslighting could be, I never said that. You're misunderstanding me. Now, a lot of times people become savvy enough to have proof. No, no, no. You did say that. See, it's right here. Well, that's not what I meant. And you should know that. If you were a good Christian, you would know that that's not what I meant. You know that I get a little confused. You know that I mix up my words.   And what they're doing is they're trying to distort your feelings instead of just owning. Wow. I didn't intend to make you feel that way, but I could see that it left an impact on you. They will skirt around all of that. They will make you question yourself. They will even deny, they will flat out deny that they said or did anything.   Laura Dugger: (37:52 - 38:26) And I see where this gets so confusing for the person in relationship with them, because there's extra layers that you talk about and even extra tactics, like pathological lying that are added in there too. Yep. But they will flat out deny it. Yeah. Well, there's also a few more terms that I'd love for you to explain, just because they may come up throughout our conversation this week and next week. So, will you define codependency for us and also reactive abuse and trauma bond?   Kris Reece: (38:27 - 43:41) Oh, absolutely. These are all very powerful and they are issues that can leave. I hate to use the word victim because we may be victimized, but if you're in Christ, you are not a victim. You have a hope and a future. God can meet you and do exceedingly abundantly above what you could ask, hope or think. But codependency, reactive abuse and trauma bonds are all very real and they often travel together. But they're different pieces of the same trap.   So, when we look at codependency, this is where your sense of worth or peace now depends on someone else's mood or approval. It's like saying, if you're okay, I'm okay. If you're not okay, I'm not okay. So, I need you to be okay. Okay. And you start to manage other people's emotions instead of your own. And that's when we start to confuse enabling with loving because at the core of it, we want to feel okay and they're not okay. So, we have to get them okay. And that's where that caring now turns into control.   So, now we get into reactive abuse. This is often very misunderstood because this happens a lot in churches. So, I want you to picture this. You have a married couple. Let's just say he is for the, just for the sake of our conversation. There are, there are a lot of female narcissists out there, but let's just say the male is the narcissist and he is gaslighting and he is abusive at home, but it's borderline. It's like, you know, he's a little insulting. He's a bit harsh. He's not loving. He's not nurturing. But boy, when he's at church, oh, he's everybody's pal. He's serving all the time. So, now when they go to counseling, they're sitting in front of the pastor, and she's got years and years and years of this abuse that has taken place. And she's now reacting to it. She's elevated. She's yelling, she's screaming, she's crying. And guess what happens? He's sitting there cool as a cucumber. I really don't understand. I mean, I know I've not been perfect and that's where the reactive abuse is taking place because she's now reacting to all of those years of manipulation and provocation and now questioning her own sanity because she knows what's going on. So, she's got that, what we refer to as cognitive dissonance going on.   She's like, well, wait a minute, he's done this, saying this, this isn't making sense. I know I'm not losing it, but I feel like I'm losing it. And that's what's taking place. So, she just explodes because she has no idea what's going on. Her sanity is in question right now. So, to that pastor, guess who looks like the problem? She does. So, if you would just react a little bit more gently when he brings something to you, you may not have this problem. And if she's a Christian, she's going to go back and recognize the error of her ways, which that is a problem. You know, we are responsible for how we react, but she's owning now all of it. So, now let's take a step back.   What is reactive abuse? It happens when you finally explode after those long periods of manipulation and provocation. The abuser then points to your reaction as the proof that you are the problem. And that keeps the guilt train going.   The trauma bond is what happens with trauma bonds is they form when your brain gets hooked on the cycles of fear and relief. And we also go back to that cognitive dissonance. We're like, oh, wait a minute. Okay, he's this way one minute and he's this way another minute. So, is he good? Is he bad? I don't, I don't, instead of the brain being able to say, he's both, you've got both of this going on and we need to deal with this. We're trying to put either a bad blanket on it or a good blanket on it. So, we get hooked in these cycles in the relationship. And what we're chasing is that constant good time. Maybe we had a great time at the gala and he was so wonderful. He was even kind to me after we got in the car, and those small moments of kindness start to release the dopamine, and they convince you to stay even though the big picture is you're being hurt long term.   It's like the frog in the boiling pot. They don't even realize it. But the good news, codependency, reactive abuse, and trauma bonds, once you recognize these patterns, you can begin to renew your mind, break the cycle and allow the Holy Spirit to retrain your heart towards peace instead of that counterfeit connection.   Laura Dugger: (43:43 - 44:06) Wow. That is so well summed up. And if somebody is recognizing that they're in that cycle or if they're identifying they're in a relationship with a narcissist, do you have a practical first step as we're starting to wind down our time together today? Anything that they could do before they tune in next week?   Kris Reece: (44:07 - 45:13) Absolutely. So, the first thing you're going to want to do is to release these feelings of shame and bringing this before God. Your time right now with the Lord can be precious and incredibly restorative. My hope would be that we take our focus off of them. Yes, I get it. We're starting to identify. We're recognizing. And all that can be very enlightening. But be careful not to fall into the enemy's trap of now overanalyzing, over fixing, over controlling.   Take this before the Lord and say, “God, what are you trying to do in me?” Because for whatever reason, He's allowed this relationship. For whatever reason, He's not allowing you out of it. There's a lot of work that He's going to want to begin to do in you. And this is not to say this is your responsibility, but I promise you at the end of this road, if you walk this with Him, there will be a life that is beyond your imagination. Whether it's in the relationship or not, I'm not sure, but it will be beyond your imagination.   Laura Dugger: (45:15 - 45:24) Thank you again for sharing the hope, Kris. And where can we go in between these weeks if we want to continue learning more from you?   Kris Reece: (45:25 - 45:43) Oh, that'd be great. I would love if you'd jump on over to my website. It's krisreece.com. That's Kris with a K, Reece with a C. And you're going to find a wealth of content and resources, some of them free resources. And it's also where you can find my new book. It's called Breaking the Narcissist's Grip. Or you can just jump on Amazon for that as well.   Laura Dugger: (45:44 - 46:01) Wonderful. We'll add links for all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And you're familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, Kris, what is your savvy sauce?   Kris Reece: (46:02 - 47:06) My savvy sauce is going to be very practical. I'm a really practical gal. And this may sound like a cliche, so I want you to kind of stick with me a little bit, but it has changed my life. And that is practicing the pause. In these difficult relationships, whether you were reactive before or not, you are now. And we want to begin to practice that pause because toxic people really want to dictate the emotional temperature of the conversation.   So, before you respond, before you react, before you decide anything, just one pause. And you got to ask yourself this one question. This is what I do. I say, is this led by peace or pressure? And that question has saved me from countless toxic conversations and impulsive decisions. So, before you respond, pause, because peace is always going to tell you the truth faster than pressure ever will.   Laura Dugger: (47:08 - 47:37) Well, so well said. I love that. And you are, I'm just so grateful that you were called to this work and that you did surrender to the Lord. Here I am. Send me with your book and the way that you're communicating today and all of these resources that you put together. I think a lot of people are going to find healing and hope. And that's my prayer as we conclude our time together. But I'm just very grateful for you, Kris. So, thank you for being my guest.   Kris Reece: (47:37 - 47:41) Thank you. Thank you. It's been such a blessing and an honor. I am so appreciative.   Laura Dugger: (47:43 - 51:25) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Sometimes, freedom isn't about your circumstances, but about your heart. There is a war within you, and Pastor Wade Smith, continuing the "Life in the Spirit" sermon season, brings a powerful message about how to recognize and fight this war with the Spirit. We pray this message emboldens you as you partner with the Spirit to be free! Scripture references: Galatians 5:16-17 (NIV) Romans 7:21-25 (NIV) 2 Corinthians 3:17 (NIV) Connect With Us: To learn more about Victory Church and to get connected, visit us at https://victory.church/ Worship Gathering Times: To see locations & worship gathering times, visit https://victory.church/locations/ Prayer: We believe in praying big prayers to a big God and expecting big results. If you're in need of prayer, our team would be honored to pray with you. You can reach us for prayer at https://victory.church/prayer Giving: At Victory, we steward God's resources well and with radical generosity. If you'd like to give toward the mission of Victory Church, visit https://victory.church/give/ Follow Us: OKC Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victorychurchokc/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/victorychurchok Edmond Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victoryedmond/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/victory.churchEDM Grapevine (Texas) Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victorychurchgrapevine/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089341962919

Leading in Parenting: Special Patreon Release with Arlene Pellicane   Titus 3:1 (AMP) “Remind people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready and willing to do good,"   *Transcription Below*   Arlene Pellicane is a speaker and author of several books including Parents Rising, 31 Days to a Happy Husband and Calm, Cool, and Connected: 5 Digital Habits for a More Balanced Life.   She is also the co-author of Growing Up Social: Raising Relational Kids in a Screen-Driven World (with Dr. Gary Chapman).     Arlene has been a featured guest on the Today Show, Fox & Friends, Focus on the Family, FamilyLife Today, The 700 Club, and Turning Point with Dr. David Jeremiah.  She writes regularly for Proverbs 31 Ministries  and Girlfriends in God.  Arlene earned her BA from Biola University and her Masters in Journalism from Regent University.  Arlene lives in San Diego with her husband James and their three children Ethan, Noelle, and Lucy.  To learn more, visit www.ArlenePellicane.com    Arlene Pellicane's Website Arlene Pellicane's Podcast   Books by Arlene Pellicane: Parents Rising 31 Days to a Happy Husband 31 Days to Becoming a Happy Wife 31 Days to Becoming a Happy Mom 31 Days to a Younger You Calm, Cool, and Connected: 5 Digital Habits for a More Balanced Life Growing up Social by Dr. Gary Chapman and Arlene Pellicane   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Cultivate What Matters   Just for Fun and Highly Recommended by Laura Lara Casey's Product: The Kid's Bundle (Write the Word for kids - have you seen this yet? It is awesome!!!) Lara Casey's 2020 6-months Powersheets...Not exaggerating: these are changing my life!!!    Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website    Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:08)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:53) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.   Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at Chick-fil-A.com forward slash East Peoria.   If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities.  Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.   I'm thrilled to welcome back author and speaker Arlene Pellicane. In her warm and welcoming way, she's going to share about parenting from a biblical perspective and give us practical steps to take to ensure as parents, we are leaders of the home and not followers of our children.    Here's our chat.   Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Arlene.   Arlene Pellicane: (1:54 - 1:55) It's great to be with you again. How fun.   Laura Dugger: (1:55 - 2:02) Well, in case our friends listening didn't hear your first episode, can you just catch us up on who you are and what you do?   Arlene Pellicane: (2:03 - 2:30) Sure. We talked about growing up social, raising relational kids in a screen-driven world. So, I just try to help families get a hold of that technology, so it doesn't take over your house.  And so, I speak and write books. My books include 31 Days to a Happy Husband, Growing Up Social, and 31 Days to Becoming a Happy Mom. I have three kids. My husband, James, and I have been married for 21 years.  And our kids are now in high school, junior high, and elementary school. And they go boy, girl, girl.   Laura Dugger: (2:31 - 2:39) And let's even go one step further and go back a little bit in your history. What type of home were you raised in?   Arlene Pellicane: (2:41 - 3:25) I am an only child. So, my husband would say he's the last of four that I was raised in a very spoiled home. That's what he would say.  So, I was the only child. I had cousins who lived in the same neighborhood. So that was really nice.  So I never felt lonely. And apparently I didn't ask my parents for a sibling. So, they were like, okay, we're happy with one.  We'll just keep it this way. And so, I had cousins that were very close in age to me in the neighborhood that I played with. And so, I had a very happy childhood and a good childhood.  I will say my sweet mom, she's so funny. She's super social. She just loves people. So, I was always the kid that was waiting on the curb like, please, mom, come pick me up. Because she was probably talking to someone and couldn't get me soon enough.   Laura Dugger: (3:26 - 3:34) That's amazing. Have you carried on that style now that you're raising your own family? Or have you chosen to do some things differently?   Arlene Pellicane: (3:34 - 4:50) I think a lot of the ways I parent are very much like how my mom and dad were.  My mom and dad were very open, very relational, talking, hugging, and involved in what I did. I was a cheerleader.  And if I came home, she'd be awake with hot chocolate at midnight after a game. Or something like that. So, I think that idea of being relational.  And there were rules and there were boundaries. But it was a very relational home. I think we definitely have that.  And my home was very joyful. And we try to make our home very joyful. So probably the most distinctive difference is the way we handle chores and just being tougher.  My mom and dad and I were caterers. Like, oh, if you need something, we'll do that for you. Where my husband is like, uh-uh.  You can do that yourself. And I think that's good. Because the first time I did laundry was in college.  I mean, that's pretty late. I remember being in college and thinking, what in the world do I do with this quarter and this laundry? I have no idea. And so, my husband has helped us to instill that the kids, you know, as soon as, like, my youngest is in fifth grade.  But even by second or third grade, she was doing her own laundry. So, I think that's good. My husband has helped us to see that learning how to do chores at a young age is a positive thing.   Laura Dugger: (4:50 - 5:14) I think it's just so interesting to hear because we all have a different approach.  So I love hearing both of those stories. And now you're also a working mom. And I know that some of our listeners have mentioned how grateful they are to hear from fellow Christians who have chosen to work while also raising their children. So, has this been natural for you or was it a struggle at times?   Arlene Pellicane: (5:15 - 6:18) Yeah. And I have to say, you know, I am a working mom with a lot of flexibility because I speak and I write. But my schedule is at home, and I am my own boss. So, I can say to myself, oh, let's go to the field trip. You know, I can do those kinds of things where I know many moms who are working these overnight shifts and they are crazy busy. And so, in that sense, I feel like if I say, oh, it's been easy, you know, it's been OK, that's kind of why. Because I haven't been forced to do these crazy hours. So, if you are listening right now and you're like, I am so sleepy because I've been working so hard, my heart goes goes to you. So, this has been a wonderful mix just for me personally, because I have the flexibility to be available for my kids. But it gives me a purpose that's outside of my children that I really enjoy. And it's kind of cool because since I write about marriage and the family and parenting, it keeps me in my space. So, I'm kind of constantly getting to have stories for my own work.  So it's it's been quite ideal. I love it.   Laura Dugger: (6:19 - 6:26) So is there any scripture or clarity from the Lord that helped affirm you in both of those roles?   Arlene Pellicane: (6:27 - 7:36) Yeah, you know, I think of Proverbs three of trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding. And so, as we're trusting in God, not leaning on our understanding and we're seeing like he will make your path straight. And so, I have seen that over and over and over again to simply trust. And it really is, you know, for me, it's being a speaker and an author. And I know some of you who are listening, that's something that you desire to do. But whether it's that or something else, you know, we live in a culture where you're supposed to be a celebrity, like you're supposed to amass numbers and have platforms and do all these things. And I think when you get to the point where it's like, you know, I want influence, I want impact, I want to help people. But I don't care if I help them with two followers or with 16, you know what I mean? Like not being into all those kinds of things. And I think when we turn our hearts to saying with our work, God, let your will be done in this. God be magnified in this Lord, just whatever I can do, multiply it. God will do that and be obedient that that's what's most important, not necessarily the Instagram followers, etc. So set your heart on God and the other things will fall into place.   Laura Dugger: (7:36 - 7:46) And like you said, in your work, you do write about family and parenting. So how can parents lead the home rather than children?   Arlene Pellicane: (7:47 - 10:36) This is so important, right? And it used to be that the home of yesterday might have been like, children are seen but not heard. But today it's backward.  It's like parents are seen but not heard. It's like people talking are the children. And so, watch your language.  You know, how do you talk to your children? Do you talk in a way that is like a leader or are you asking them questions all the time? So, I notice this about myself. So, for instance, that after you say something, you would say, okay, like, it's time to go come to dinner.  Okay. Like it's a question, right?  Not an instruction. Or why don't you wear this shirt? Okay. So, we, especially as moms, do this all the time. And if we don't tack the word, okay, on our voices still go up. Like we'll say, why don't you pick that one?  Isn't that a good idea? Like we're constantly like our voices go up in the question. So, part of leadership is even just listening to yourself.  How am I communicating? And I love what John Roseman, the psychologist says is communicate your instruction using the least amount of words possible. So, it's go to the car.   That's a leader, right? You're just telling your child, go to the car. But we say, okay, it's time to go to grandma's house.  And you know, we don't want to be late. So, let's start zipping up your jacket and let's go. Okay, it's time to go.  Are you not ready to go? Get your shoes on. Okay, you got your shoes.  That's so good. You got your shoes. Get in the car.  Right? So, it's like all we need to say was get in the car. So, I love that.  So just even assess how do you communicate to your children? Because your children are hearing all these things. And so, they just hear like this lovely paragraph.  They missed go to the car. So, assess how you talk. Use fewer words.  Don't make everything a question. And all of this, of course, stems from the idea, the realization that, wait a minute, I'm the leader in the home, not my child. So many people will say, well, my child won't let me do that.  Right? Like we ride bikes in our neighborhood. And my son, when he was in second grade, had a really bad accident involving him and a truck. And went to the hospital and was fine because of the grace of God and because he was wearing a helmet. And so, we'll see kids in the neighborhood without helmets. And my husband said to the dad, “You know, just last week, my son was hit by a car on this very street.  It's really important that your kids wear a helmet. And the father said, oh, I just can't get my kids to do it. So, this is the problem of, wait, who is the leader here? Is the child the leader or is the parent the leader? So, you've got to see, first of all, in scripture, it is children obey your parents and not the other way around. So, we've got to just embrace that with all of our heart.   Laura Dugger: (10:37 - 11:06) That's amazing to even hear you say that, because this morning this verse just jumped off the page at me. And it's in Titus 3, verse 1. And I'm reading out of the Amplified Version. And it says, remind people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready and willing to do good.  That just struck me for parenting. Like you're saying, it is biblical and it's important for us to lead.   Arlene Pellicane: (11:07 - 11:49) And wow, if your kids cannot learn from you, right, if in their own home they don't have that sense of, oh, there's this healthy authority over me and I do what they say. Like if they don't have that, then look at them as they grow up. They're going to have trouble with their relationship with God. It's like, oh, God commands us to do a lot of things.  And like Mary, we could say, let it be to me according to your word. I am your servant. Or like the modern person, we could be like, no way. Who are you to tell me what to do, right? So that authority, if they can get that from you as a parent, that's going to help them with their spouse, with their employer, with a police officer, with a teacher, with God. It just helps them in all those relationships.   Laura Dugger: (11:50 - 12:03) And I'm so grateful for people like you who are writing parenting books. And so, I want to know, how did you arrive at your eight strategies in one of your recent books titled Parents Rising?   Arlene Pellicane: (12:04 - 12:59) Yeah, a lot of it was what I was observing. Like what was I seeing with my children, with their friends in the elementary school, et cetera, our pediatrician and talking to other doctors, asking them like, what are you seeing? Because something my pediatrician said really struck me.  She's like, Arlene, a lot of times I'm not talking about physical things anymore. Like this is a pediatrician, right? It's not so much about shots and growth and all this.  It's how can I manage my child? They're so emotional. They're under distress.  They have anxiety. They're on video games all the time. So just listening to what she was saying of what are parents coming to her and saying, this is my problem, you know, and she's been a pediatrician for 25 years and has talked about, wow, in the last 10 years, all these problems because of technology, they're just enormous. So, listening to people's input led to these eight strategies.   Laura Dugger: (13:01 - 13:07) And you don't have to go through all of them, but could you at least touch on a few of these strategies and elaborate?   Arlene Pellicane: (13:07 - 16:59) Sure. You know, you can listen to our Growing Up Social one that we did to talk about this first strategy, which is amusement is not the highest priority. But what I'll say about that is as parents, you are not the cruise director. It is not your job to make everything fun from A to Z. Now you can do that on occasion. That's good.  You want to have fun. So don't get me wrong. Have fun.  But you're more like a trainer, a coach. And so, a lot of times we'll just give all the technology so our kids can be amused, but your kids don't need amusement. They need character. So, they need to be building character in your home.  So put amusement in its proper place so character can take shape. And that's going to be your first strategy. But I'll say a few things about strategy number four, which is the Bible and prayer are present daily. And it's just the idea that when kids see that you have a real faith, that it's not like, oh, I go to church on Sunday, but then every other day of the week I kind of look like any other home in this neighborhood. You know, like we watch the same things as our secular neighbor does.  We cuss sometimes. We spend our money on stuff we don't really tithe. And again, not a guilt trip, but I'm just saying when kids see that, oh, this doesn't make this huge difference in your life. Then when they're older, it's much easier for them to stray away from that faith because it's not strongly in them. But when they see like, oh, my mom and dad, they're not perfect, but they seek God. And when they make a mistake, they ask for forgiveness of me. And when I see them get money, they give it to the missionary. And when we have extra time, we try to serve other people or invite people to church. So those kinds of things. So not just like, oh, we attend church and we're good people.  But when kids see, oh, my mom's faith is real. My dad's faith is real.  That's going to make an impact on them. And that's going to help them to make that decision for themselves. So, make sure that that's something that's daily. And then for prayer, I will be the first to say, I want this amazing prayer life. But just like anyone else, I can go to bed and say, oh, my word, I didn't even pray today. So, one thing that's really helped me is Moms in Prayer.  And that is an international organization. And the total mission is two praying moms for every school. So that there would be two moms that would gather. And obviously there can be more to pray for their children by name and to pray for their school by name. And I started joining one of these when my son Ethan was in first grade. And now he is in 10th. And I can see such a huge difference in how God has moved in my children, in their friendships, in their school. Because every week while school's in session, I am praying with another woman for my kids by name. Like it is amazing. And I remember the very first week I did this, I joined a church group that had like one lady had college age kids.  And one lady had grandkids. So, it was a really diverse group.  I had the youngest kids. And we prayed. And we prayed that my son would make a Christian friend.  Because we're a public school. And the very next day my son Ethan said, Mom, I was in the playground, and I heard a boy singing. And Mom, he's a Christian.  And Mom, he's in my class. And I was like, Ethan, I just prayed with the moms just yesterday that you would find a Christian friend. And it's amazing.  That was first grade. And just about a month ago we had that same boy over for breakfast. And I told him that story.  And it was so funny. Like see how God works. So, he and my son are not close friends.  They have become acquaintances over the years. But we were able to have him over. And to be able to say that story, like you can see the boys lit up like, wow, this prayer thing really works. And so, if your kids can see that the Bible and prayer is part of your normal rhythm, that you care about it, that's going to make a huge difference in their spiritual lives.   Laura Dugger: (17:00 - 22:33) I would echo all of that. I think that life with Jesus is the most exciting type of life. And that's so great to hear how you incorporated it with your kids and let them in on that process.   And now a brief message from our sponsor. Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right.  Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University. Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia. This online self-paced program includes 13 associates degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees, and two master's programs, including an MBA. College courses are fully transferable both in and out of this program. This could even be a great option to complete your general education courses and then transfer to the college of your choice and save money in the process. 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And while you're there, make sure you sign up for our e-mail list to receive encouragement, questions, and recommended resources about once a month to promote your own practical chats for intentional living. I also want to remind you about the financial side of Savvy Sauce Charities. As you know, we recently became a nonprofit, which means all your financial support is now tax deductible. There are multiple ways to give, and we would be so honored if you would share your financial support with us so that we can continue producing free content that is accessible to the general public. Your money will go to support creatively getting the gospel message of Jesus Christ to the nations as we continue to share the good news on every episode. And I say this is reaching the nations because The Savvy Sauce podcast is downloaded in all 50 United States as well as over 100 countries around the world. 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There are processing fees that we cover for these donations, but we wanted to offer listeners a seamless way to share their finances with us when we share our content with them. So just visit thesavvysauce.com and find the donate page under the tab support. Another way to find it is simply type in donate to the search bar on our website and just click the first picture shown. We are all about sharing around here, sharing resources, sharing joy, and sharing the good news about Jesus Christ. We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing The Savvy Sauce podcast episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review. You can also share any of our social media posts on Instagram or Facebook.  We are grateful for all of it, and we just love partnering together with you.   Now, back to the show.   Arlene Pellicane: (22:34 - 24:31) Another strategy number seven is love is spelled T-I-M-E, love is spelled time. It's that idea that yes, you can have quality time, but if you are not together all week and you have a half an hour of quality time only, that's not enough. You need to work on the quantity time as well. And again, one of the huge stealers is being on your phone, whether it's us, whether it's our kids. They did a survey of 6,000 kids all around the world and asked what's your parent's worst habit and 50% of them said my parent is on the phone and 34% of those people said and when we're talking in conversation, my parent will interrupt, like they will take a text while we're talking and that really bothers me. So, this idea of love is spelled T-I-M-E with time, just remember that when you're with your child, you need to have moments where there are no devices present. This doesn't mean that from the moment your child gets home from school to the moment they go to bed, you need to be staring at them and doing something.  No, that's not practical. Like you have to make dinner.  You have to pay your bills. We get that. But in the time in between those things, make sure there's time where maybe you're reading together. We just recently got a pool table, so we're playing pool together now. So have things in place, whether it's a frisbee or a ball, a chess game, a puzzle, where there is time that it's a regular rhythm to connect with your child, spend time together and it doesn't have to be this serious chat. You know, boys don't want to sit across the table with their mothers and have a serious chat, but a boy will play Nerf Gun Wars with you. So, like have activities so you're spending time together because in that shared activity, that's when there's an opportunity for that child to tell you something that maybe is on their heart, it's on their mind, because now there's a space to tell you. So, make sure that you are spending time with your kids.   Laura Dugger: (24:32 - 24:38) Wow. Is there anything else that we haven't covered yet in our time together that you want to make sure we hear?   Arlene Pellicane: (24:38 - 26:42) There are two thoughts I have. One is when you're spending that time together, research has shown that even having a phone present, so you're not touching it, it's just on the table. Like right now my phone is two feet away from me on my desk. So just having it there dilutes the conversation because they found that when people talk without it present, they feel more connected, like nothing is standing in the way between us. But when the phone is there, they know that at any moment that phone might ring, that phone might make a noise and my attention will be diverted and it dilutes the conversation. So, make sure your phones are completely not present when you are having that face-to-face time with your kids. And then the last thing I want to say is just have that mindset of strategy number eight, which is I am launching an adult, I am not babying a child.  And men tend to be pretty good at this. And again, this is a generality, but women, we're more like, oh, like let me do it for you.  So it's okay to let your kids grow up. And one thing my pastor says that I like very much is never do something for your child that your child can do on their own. So, something I love to do with my kids is I love to trim their nails, right? So, they're in elementary school, I'm trimming their nails, I'm trimming their nails. And my husband James would be like, honey, like they're in third, fourth grade, they can trim their own nails. And I'm like, the pinky, very tricky, the thumb, very difficult, you know? And so finally, I got to the point where it's like, okay, you know, Lucy, that's my youngest, you are responsible now for trimming your own nails and I won't do it anymore. But it's funny, like I would sneak around the house like when my husband wasn't watching and trim her nails because I just felt like I do a better job of this. And so, as moms, we need to realize someday our kids will go out of our house and they need to be able to trim their own nails.  So mama, you just got to back down. So, a lot of times it's we as moms that have to back away and say, you know what? I need to let them do this on their own because they are an adult and they're going to need this skill very soon.   Laura Dugger: (26:42 - 26:49) Okay, so it's don't ever do for your child what they can do for themselves. Is that the saying?   Arlene Pellicane: (26:49 - 26:50) Yes, that's the saying.   Laura Dugger: (26:51 - 26:56) Arlene, if people want to connect further, where can listeners find you online?   Arlene Pellicane: (26:57 - 27:22) They can find me on ArlenePellicane.com and I actually have a video series that goes with this book, Parents Rising, and I've designed it for a small group or for personal use so that each message is about 20 minutes long so you could watch the message and then you could have a discussion group with moms or with parents or by yourself. And so that's at ArlenePellicane.com and you can also find me on Instagram, Facebook and my podcast is called The Happy Home Podcast.   Laura Dugger: (27:23 - 27:41) Fantastic. We will link to all of these in our show notes and on our resources page of our website. We are called the Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so today, Arlene, we would love to know what is your savvy sauce?   Arlene Pellicane: (27:42 - 28:49) So my savvy sauce has to do with someone you have interviewed in the past, Clifford and Joyce Penner, and I interviewed them for my book 31 Days to a Happy Husband, and they talked about the 5 to 30 second kiss, the 5 to 30 second daily kiss to keep the pilot light lit between you and your spouse. So that is my savvy sauce is attempting the 5 to 30 second kiss every day. And I will tell you, you know, even I'm the author, ooh, I've been married 21 years. Wow, like we still have trouble with this so much so that my husband has literally printed out a page, put it on the refrigerator, and we put an X on every day that we do this. So, whenever we realize, well, we are not kissing regularly anymore, the chart goes up on the refrigerator and we start making Xs. And it was so funny because my daughter, my youngest, had asked like, what's that chart for? And she asked me in such a moment that I wasn't ready to make up a funny story about it. So, I just said, oh, it's a kissing chart for daddy and I. And she's just like, what? So that's our savvy sauce, the attempt of the 5 to 30 second kiss every day.   Laura Dugger: (28:49 - 28:58) I love your savvy sauce. And Arlene, it is always such a pleasure to get to spend time with you and learn from you. Thank you for being my guest.   Arlene Pellicane: (28:59 - 29:01) It's been my pleasure. It's been so fun. Thanks for having me.   Laura Dugger: (29:02 - 32:44) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Titus 3:3-8 NIV “At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.”   *Transcription Below*   Hunter Beless is an author of several children's books including Read It, See It, Say It, Sing It! and Amy Carmichael: The Brown-Eyed Girl Who Learned to Pray. She is also a Bible teacher, co-author of Titus: Displaying the Gospel of Grace and the founder of Journeywomen Ministries, which empowers women to live out their faith through deep commitment to their local church. Hunter hosts the Journeywomen Podcast, sharing resources and insightful conversations with women of faith. She and her husband, Brooks, have four beautiful children, whom Hunter homeschools. You can find her on Instagram @hunterbeless, or at https://www.hunterbeless.com/books. Journeywomen Podcast   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Questions and Topics We Cover: 1. What rhythms have been most profitable to you (spiritually, relationally, physically, and productively?)  2. In your own home, how have you intentionally helped your children know and love God through Scripture?  3. How is the Gospel useful for not only salvation, but also sanctification?   Similar Episodes from The Savvy Sauce: 16 Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Rach Kincaid 57 Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee 150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh 166 Journey from Empty to Well Nourished Soul with Gretchen Saffles  207 Cultivating Character in Our Children with Cynthia Yanof Special Patreon Release Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro 267 Apologetics with Ray Comfort 274 Holy Spirit Stories and Fruit and Ways to Identify His Guidance in Our Lives with Margaret Feinberg   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:16) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode. If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.   My guest for today is Hunter Beless, and you may recognize her as the founder of Journey Women Ministries. She's also a podcaster and an author of multiple books, including this recent one, Jesus Loves You More. Hunter is going to share today about all things discipleship.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Hunter.    Hunter Beless: (1:17 - 1:23) Thank you so, much for having me. I just love the concept of this show, and I'm excited to be here with you today.    Laura Dugger: (1:23 - 1:56) Well, I've been looking so, forward to getting to chat with you. You've been on my list for years, so, I'm thankful this worked out. And even, it may have been years ago, but I heard you publicly share that you had chosen to put your faith in Christ in elementary school, I believe. But then as you transitioned into high school, you were open about then choosing to pursue the ways of the world. So, will you just speak to that experience and talk to that teenage girl who's currently facing some similar temptations?    Hunter Beless: (1:56 - 6:39) Oh, that'd be such a privilege to get to speak to any young woman who is in a situation like this. I often think, like, if I would have just had one older friend who was encouraging me in the Lord, who would be willing to testify to God's grace in her life, and who would reach back and try and help me just to continue walking in the grace that he had extended to me through his son, like, I wonder if it would have gone differently for me, Laura. But, you know, the Lord did save me at a young age, and I lived fervently for him, loved God's word, even from a young age.    And I remember, like, seeing groups of people that I wanted to like me, and wanting so, desperately to be accepted by them. But knowing that when I opened the pages of scripture, the Holy Spirit brought conviction to my heart in a way that would not allow me to act in accordance with the things that these groups were doing, in order to be approved of by them. And so, I thought to myself, "Well, maybe I'll just stop reading my Bible so, much." This is about eighth or ninth grade. And, you know, then I won't feel a sense of conviction when it comes to, like, these behaviors that I know I need to, you know, adapt to, in order to be approved of by the people that I deemed, you know, significant. And so, I set my Bible aside.    And it's a really sad story. I mean, as I continued to spend time outside of God's word, I would still go to church with my family and things like that on Sunday mornings. But I just began to look less and less like a follower of Christ, and more and more like the world. And eventually, you know, I spent my entire duration of my high school years doing that. And I have to tell you; I just went back to my 20-year high school reunion. And there was a girl that I saw there. And she told me what a jerk I was in that season of my life. And it was such a wonderful thing to be reminded of what it looks like for me to not be walking in the Spirit, but to be walking in the flesh. And to really have to reckon with, that is what it looks like to be walking like the world.    And I just told her, I said, "You know what, you're completely right." I said, "I was." I was totally looking out for my good and not for the good of others. I was absolutely living for myself and not for the Lord. But by God's grace, when it came time for my senior year of high school, he allowed me to get to the end of myself. And you would have thought, like, looking back, I had the resume, I had the 4.0, I had the salutatorian status, I was the president of my high school senior class. You would have thought, this girl's crushing it. But I had never been more anxious, more depressed, more insecure, more selfish, obviously, as testified to by the girl that I just referenced, than I was in that season of my life.    And I remember I had a youth pastor who had just come into our church. And he said, "Hey," he said, "How's your time in the word looking?" And I said, "Well, I could either lie, or I could tell the truth." And I said, "You know, it's looking pretty, pretty bleak." And he said, "I just want to challenge you to get back in God's word." And at the same time, my dad had a tragic accident. It was a near death accident. And I was kind of reckoned with the brevity of life as a senior in high school. And I cried out to the Lord. And I said, "God, if you really are who you say you are, would you show me who you are through your word?"    And that sparked, Laura, this passion for God's word. And it allowed me then to see the difference in my own life, what it looks like for Hunter to be walking without listening to the voice of God, and what it looked like for Hunter to have her face in her Bible, and to seek to live by God's word. And I tell you what, I probably don't look nearly as impressive by the world's standards. But the joy and the peace, and really just the transformation that the Lord has accomplished in my life through his word, is something that I cannot stop testifying to. And I just cannot encourage women enough, like if you are wrestling with the flesh, to get into God's word, because God works by the power of the Holy Spirit through his word in the lives of his people. And so, that's why really this whole passion has just overtaken my life for God's word.    Laura Dugger: (6:40 - 6:59) Wow, that is incredible to hear that transformation, because God did it, and God can do it again. And God can do it for each one of us listening. But you are so passionate about discipling others. Can you first tell us, what were some of the significant ways that you've been discipled?    Hunter Beless: (7:00 - 10:07) Yeah, well, I went to college, and that was the first time that I had ever really had someone seeking to do spiritual good in my life, outside of my parents. And really, even with my parents, like, you know, sitting down intentionally studying the word, that wasn't a part of our family culture. And so, when I went to college, there was a girl, her name was Meredith. And I remember, she sat down, and she taught me how to read my Bible, for really the very first time. I remember being confronted with some of the truths of scripture, Laura, and I'm like, "That's in the Bible? That disrupts me. Like, I didn't know that, you know?" And so, it was such a wonderful time, just of really kind of being confronted with my own theological ideas from my, you know, lack of ability and time to really understand the message of the text, you know, and then to really reevaluate that and be conformed to the text and to allow it to conform me. So, Meredith had a significant influence in my life in how to study the Bible.    And then I had an older woman named Joyce, who at the time, I believe, was in her late 40s, maybe early 50s. And I just remember, Joyce found out that I began to memorize scripture. So, somewhere along the way, I realized, like, this book is so, significant that I need to start, you know, hiding scripture away in my heart. Some of that was just watching my own grandmother and seeing the way that the Lord had used scripture in her own life. And realizing, like, wow, if my grandmother has these truths hidden away in her heart for this season, and she had dementia, I need to start hiding scripture away in my heart, too. So, Joyce and I really, we started up a group on scripture memory.    And I'll never forget the first time I met her, she said, "Hey, I heard you're starting to memorize Ephesians." I never finished. But she said, "Let's hear it." And so, she just opened up her Bible. And I just started quoting Ephesians. And one of Joyce's coined phrases that at the time I didn't realize was actually scripture itself, she would hold the Bible out in front of me. And she would say, "Hunter, this is no empty word for you, but your very life." And she had so many phrases like that, that I didn't even realize at the time, because I was pretty biblically illiterate, that were the words of scripture themselves. That's Deuteronomy 32:47. And Joyce really embodied that message for me, that scripture is that man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. And so, watching her just live with her face in her Bible, proverbially speaking, and seeking to meditate on its truths and live by those day in and day out really transformed who I am even today. And she gave me a picture of what I'd like to look like years down the road.    So, I've had various mentors, but those are some of the first. And the Lord definitely used them in significant ways to do spiritual good in my life.    Laura Dugger: (10:08 - 10:36) And I don't know what kind of life those women lead if they're in public or more private disciplines, but their faithfulness, you just see the impact how it ripples out to bless generations. And even you, Hunter, you're leading this incredible ministry, where you disciple others through helping women know and love God through his word. So, will you share how you ended up getting to do this awesome work that you get to do today?    Hunter Beless: (10:37 - 15:41) Oh, well, the beginnings of this, you would not have thought were awesome. And in fact, you and I were just chatting, and I still am recording out of my closet. And really, it's all just been an overflow of what the Lord has been doing in my own life. And I did feel like along the way, I just, I began to just love learning from older women. And I do think that's a biblical, like scriptural kind of practice. You look at Titus 2, you see the older women are to teach the younger women what is good. I was a younger woman who loved learning from older women. And so, I had this, over the years, this just long list of women who had invested in me who had, you know, testified to God's grace in their life, who had taught me the scriptures.    And when my husband Brooks and I were in the military, we found ourselves on post. And just due to the transiency of a military lifestyle, the churches around military installations tend to be a little bit tired, sometimes depleted, because people in the military are moving so, frequently. So, it's hard, right, to have continuity to see people through in their discipling process and all of that. And so, I really missed those mentors that I'd had from college, and the year after college, after coming into marriage. And so, I thought to myself, like, man, I want the other women. I was also interfacing with either believers or non-believers who really had never been discipled. And I thought, man, I just wish I could get you with Joyce, or I wish I could get you with Meredith. I wish I could connect you, you know, with X, Y, or Z woman from the past couple of years.    And so, I thought, I also simultaneously was listening to a lot of podcasts because I was super lonely. Just because, you know, moving into a new culture, and then my husband was gone at least 50% of the time for training or deployment. And so, I'd be walking along the military installation listening to like sermon audio, like John Piper or Timothy Keller or whatever. And I thought, man, I wish that there was a conversational podcast about theology for women that would just be more warm and kind of like what we're doing right now. And my husband was like, "Well, you should start it." And so, I just started with the women who had mentored me. If you go back to the very beginning of the podcast, it's truly like my college roommates. It's my mentors from Pine Cove Christian Camps where Brooks and I met.    And I think I just by God's grace, the podcasting network was so, small at the time. I remember Journey Women landed in the number two spot right behind Joel Osteen whenever the thing launched. And so, then from there, it just gave the podcast some notoriety, which is what then allowed, you know, some of the names that you would recognize to reach out and to say, "Hey, you know, could we come on the podcast?" And at the time, I had no knowledge of, you know, how to market people marketing books or any of that Bible studies, etc. And yeah, it was a really fun season, actually, because it was pre-COVID. And you know, people weren't used to doing a whole lot online. And so, had some really, really fun conversations. And along the way, the Lord has helped me to hone in more of a vision of what I'm doing. Because at first, it was just like, let's get in the closet and have like fun, intentional conversations that I could share with my girlfriends or with maybe the military spouse that I'm meeting on the playground that I may never see again, you know.    And then along the way, people started even wanting to donate to the podcast and different things like that. And I thought, I really need to have a clearer aim. And so, now, you know, over the past eight years, the Lord has given us this mission to help women know and love God through his word, to find their hope in the gospel and to invest deeply in their local churches as they go out on mission for the glory of God. And some of that came and Laura, I'm sure you face this from women really seeking out discipling online, and us realizing we can't disciple you. Like, we cannot come alongside you and help you to grow in godliness, you know, but we can do that via the interwebs. But the degree to which we're able to do that is super-duper limited. And so, what does it look like for us then to equip women so, that then they would be encouraged to seek out fellowship in the local church, and to be investing their time, energy and talents in the local church. And so, that's become kind of our resounding gong at Journey Women over the years, just because we really do believe that ministry happens best in the context of the local church. And that's something that the Lord has validated through seeing women reaching out online and realizing like, hey, we could never, you know, provide what they need. But God in his grace has given us the local body that is able to do that.    Laura Dugger: (15:42 - 19:08) So, well said, because this is a great place that we can meet people anytime what is most convenient for them with a podcast. But then also, so, that's great for sowing seeds. But there's nothing that replaces that embodied relationship. And it just makes me think of God that he created us that way. And he knew it because Jesus even being embodied, little baby sent to earth, so, nothing replaces that. And, Hunter, I just I love hearing about your public ministry and the way the Lord has blessed and grown it.    And now a brief message from our sponsor. With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser Team is a RE/MAX agent of Central Illinois, and she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors. For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831. And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer. When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home. And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process. This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team. The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market, but Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell. She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process, and she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she's thought of everything. And Sue's continued generosity was astonishing. I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home, and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Miss Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home.    So, whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time, or looking to upgrade or downsize, or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years, Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress free, and that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made. So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com. And that is sueneihouser.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.   I'd also love to hear a little bit more about your personal life. So, what does a day in the life look like for Hunter Beless?    Hunter Beless: (19:09 - 21:25) Well, I think if somebody joined me in a day in a life, in this season, Laura, I feel like I'm too busy. I have committed to too much. And so, what it looks like practically, it's going to be a lot of time running from this or that event and just trying to do the things that I committed to before or some of the other things that the Lord has allowed in my life came to fruition. But just leaning into him for the grace that I need moment by moment, you know, and trusting that he is the same and that he has provided all of the grace that I need. His grace is sufficient for me, you know, as I'm running errands and facing the temptation to feel anxious or overwhelmed that, you know, I think it's Luke 12, where it's talking about how I can't even add a moment, not even the smallest amount of time to my life by worrying. So, I'm just going to entrust all of this to the Lord.    So, for me, I wonder how many women are listening to this and that they can relate to this because I talked to various people who they don't have a podcast, but they don't have the same work as me, but they feel that same temptation towards anxiety and the feelings of overwhelms that we all face, you know, and yeah, I think my life probably looks a lot like many of y'all's. And for me, it's just the constant meditation on scripture and just rehearsing the truths of God's word that are never changing, even in the midst of my ever-changing and chaotic circumstances. So, it doesn't seem to change even if I do a better job, which I could have done, planning my schedule or, you know, prayerfully considering the commitments that I made, but just resting and knowing that he is unchanging and that he is ever-present and that he is all-knowing and that he has provided everything that I need and his son.    So, that is what it looks like. Every day looks different, but again, leaning into the truths of God's word, meditating on those truths, rehearsing those truths over and over, and resting in the grace that the gospel provides. That's the thing that never changes.    Laura Dugger: (21:27 - 22:06) And I love that overview because if we look from the outside, you're homeschooling, you run this ministry, you have a podcast, and you're cooking healthy recipes for your family, but I'm sure do you also have weekly patterns? Because to me, it's a stewardship issue. You've been faithful with little, it sounds like, so, he has given you the opportunity to be faithful in much, and it's a season of much where you've written books and produced all this content. So, do you have a system in place or rhythms throughout the week that have helped you live that full, abundant life?    Hunter Beless: (22:06 - 24:19) Yeah, that's a really good question. Obviously, the weekly rhythm that we always start with is worshiping with the saints on Sunday. I look forward to that like no other. And we are in a church that the Lord is just so, gracious to have provided a pastor who prioritizes the preaching of the word and who is consistently proclaiming the gospel from the pulpit. And so, Laura, on the weeks where I feel like I have been so, busy that I have not spent the time in God's word that I would desire, just the recognition that going to church on a Sunday is such a blessing to get to receive God's word. And so, there have been many times that I just show up and I'm just like, "Thank you, Lord." Thank you for the provision of your word. Thank you for the provision of the body of Christ. And so, Sundays are just like a non-negotiable for us. We go to church on Sundays. And then, you know, we have various things. My kids are actually homeschooled on two days out of the week or three days out of the week. And then, they go to school two days. So, we do like a university model is what it's called. And so, on the three days that they are home, I am full tilt homeschooling, doing everything home-related.    And in fact, I have had to learn that part of their education is also helping care for our home. And so, we really see it as a team effort to keep the home, like, tidy and running and functioning well, so that we can, you know, spend as much time in it as we do, like, with happy hearts. And then, on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I typically am in this closet working while the children are at school. Saturdays, we rest together as a family. We spend a lot of time outdoors. I also make bread regularly. And I think there's something liturgical for me about making bread. And, like, when everything else feels, like, a little bit chaotic and out of my control, the beauty of just doing a simple task like making bread to provide food for my family and nourishment is something that really brings me great joy. So, Saturdays are also bread-making days. And then, the week begins again. That is awesome.    Laura Dugger: (24:19 - 24:41) I love hearing that. And it makes me curious to go even a little bit further. I'll give you a few categories, but I'd love to hear what rhythms in these categories have been most profitable to you. So, when you think of it spiritually, physically, relationally, and just productively, how you stay creatively fresh.    Hunter Beless: (24:41 - 28:24) Yeah. You know, spiritually for me, and I'm a mother of, like, young children, right? So, my kids are ranging from age 11 to age 3. I would say we're still in a season in which sleep is a little bit unpredictable, particularly in those early waking hours. But I do my very best to try and get in God's Word first. And that is not because I want to check it off the list, but because I need the people in my home and beyond. So, really trying to just orient myself rightly to the truths of God's Word first thing is huge. I also do try to work out. So, that gets to the physical piece. I neglected working out for many years. I actually, hilariously, was a personal trainer when we were back in the military. And that was kind of my gig while Brooks was gone. And so, I know how to work out, and I enjoy working out. But with the children, it has been a difficult thing for me to prioritize. But just this last year, I got, this is the most, like, basic thing ever. I got a Peloton. I bought it secondhand off of Marketplace. And it has just been a wonderful way for me to sweat and exercise my body first thing in the morning without, you know, really requiring a whole lot. I don't have to leave the house. I don't have to go outside or anything, because Brooks does travel quite a bit still for work. And so, I try to ride the Peloton. Doesn't always happen. Happens less than it does, than I want for it to, but it does help.    And then, yeah, relationally is really, that's a really good question. I think one thing that the Lord has blessed me with, having lived a season of extreme transiency, right? So, we did eight years of military. And then, we did two years at, you know, university where Brooks got his MBA. And now, we're in our first, like, what we would call, like, a civilian kind of location, where he's got his first civilian job. We're almost 15 years deep into marriage now. And so, all of the friendships that I made along those eight years of moving almost annually. I think we moved, like, six or seven times in eight years. Yeah, just trying to maintain those relationships. I only have one or two from each duty station, but I love using Voxer or Voice Memo to keep in touch with people who have known me for, you know, a longer time. And that's just one thing that's really fun. I have to be careful not to let that overtake my time on my phone, but I do love to keep in touch with old friends. And they are some of the friends that the Lord has used just really to help me navigate the various challenges that we face, right, in life and relationally in marriage and all of that.    So, anyways, and relationally in marriage, Brooks and I were really just relishing in the friendship that God has given us with one another. I don't think it's been easy over the years, especially with all of the transiency and all of the deployments and all of the many moves that we've faced. But God has really just given us a true appreciation for one another. And to begin to see now, 15 years into marriage, that the differences that He has given each of us are a gift to help us be conformed into the image of His Son. So, that's some of it, spiritually, physically, relationally. Did I miss anything?    Laura Dugger: (28:25 - 28:32) Just even productively as you're creating content, how do you stay creatively inspired and fresh?    Hunter Beless: (28:33 - 30:55) Yeah, I love, my friend Gretchen Stoffels has a lot of wonderful things to say about this. She talks a lot about producing from the overflow and not the undertow. And that's ministered to me over the years. I find a lot of times when I am not creatively fresh, it's either because I'm overproducing or because I'm not honestly spending, most of what I do is all revolving around God's Word. So, it's like if I'm not spending time in God's Word and allowing myself to just be struck anew with truths from the text, then what do I have to share? So, that helps me too in knowing when am I overcommitted? Because if I don't have time then to be relishing in God's Word, not for the sake of producing something, but just like you said, just being struck and wonder by who God is, then I really need to reevaluate the commitments that I'm making and slow things down a bit. And so, that's kind of what has helped me to protect that time with the Lord so that then I would have something to offer others.    And I don't just think about it in terms of producing a podcast or writing a book or sending out a newsletter. I mean, honestly, even with the children, this has been something that I've been thinking about for the last six to eight months. If I want them to understand how God's Word informs all of life, then I need to be with my face in my Bible because who is it that they spend the most time with, right? All throughout their life. Like, it's me. And so, I get to then help them realize like, oh, here is how Scripture applies to all these different circumstances. But if I don't spend time in God's Word, then I've got nothing to give. And I have a friend who was a missionary actually in a remote country with the IMB. And I asked her, I said, "How did you ever evangelize with people in this remote context from this different religion and all of this?" And she said, "You know what, I just had to be so, filled up with God's Word that that's what came out." And I think about that all the time. So, when I'm feeling dry, I'm like, "Oop, oop, that's a good sign. I need to go back to God's Word."    Laura Dugger: (30:56 - 31:07) I love that. And let's go there then in your own home. How have you intentionally helped your children to know and to love God through Scripture?    Hunter Beless: (31:09 - 33:52) This is going to sound really selfish, but, you know, this whole endeavor, right, I've realized the significance of God's Word in my own life. And so, I'm constantly thinking, Laura, like, how am I going to get into God's Word? You know, like, that's, it sounds selfish. But if I really believe that I need God's Word for all of life, I'm going to have to figure out how am I going to get that in. And then it's wonderful because I get to bring the children along in that. So, maybe that's just like a fresh take on it, right? Because we're always thinking as mothers, like, how can we be investing in our children more heavily in all of these things? And I think those are good and right desires. Obviously, Deuteronomy speaks to that. You know, we're supposed to teach our children diligently the ways of the Lord. But I think it's just so refreshing when we come to the text as learners, as co-learners. And so, for me, I'm just always thinking, like, how can we learn together who God's Word is? How can we worship the Lord together in our home?    And then it helps me see those times, right, when you are offering instruction to the children, when you are being intentional about, you know, for us, we do, like, catechesis, for example, which is a series of questions and answers just to help disseminate doctrinal truths and help the children learn, like, here are, you know, foundational doctrine of the Christian faith. Then I'm not just like, "Okay, who is God? You know, God is the Spirit." I'm, like, thinking about the things that we're learning in a way where I also am seeking to learn as well. And I think that just gives a posture of humility, too. Like, as a parent, where it's not like, "You gotta learn your Bible verse this week, kid." You know, it's like, "We get to, we get to, look, we get to learn God's Word together, you know?" And then that helps them understand the joy of learning God's Word. And it also gives them a very real picture of a parent who's being transformed by the truths of God's Word. What better witness is there? And so, really, I've stopped seeing it as, "Hey, here's our time," you know, which we do have.    And practically, for us, a lot of that happens around the table because I've realized that, like, when children are well-fed, when they have something to do with their hands, they may be a little bit more prone to, like, have open ears, ready to hear, you know, instruction. But we do have those rhythms kind of in place, but I don't want it to be relegated to those rhythms. I want it to be all of life. I want us to understand it doesn't just mean we're gonna sit here over breakfast and do our Bible reading for the day. This is something that is really going with us through the day because we need it not just for this moment, but for all of life.    Laura Dugger: (33:53 - 35:38) You draw so much wisdom there, and I think especially that it's not an either-or, having that set-aside rhythm and time, or just hoping it'll be incorporated into all of life. But it's both.   I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Henrichsen from Episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product, so, I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so, that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. You will also be able to access our donation button, or our mailing address, for sending checks that are tax-deductible, so, that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com today.   Even going back to the heart of this conversation of discipleship, Hunter, how do you think the local church, and especially older women in the community, can play a vital role in encouraging young people to love Scripture?    Hunter Beless: (35:40 - 39:34) You know, I love this question, and I just, I cannot overemphasize the value of older women who love God's Word in the church enough. You know, I think in the culture, we're hearing and seeing that, you know, it's not good to grow old. I mean, that's being perpetuated by all of the Instagram ads that we receive, and by seeing shiny faces that look like they haven't aged one bit. And I'm like, "No, God's Word says that women, older women in particular, have tremendous value in the family of God." And so, I think I want older women just to realize, like, we need you. And in fact, no one is exempt. No woman is exempt from the Titus 2 mandate to teach the younger women what is good. And how do we know what's good? Well, we know God alone is good. And because God is good, we know His Word is good. And if you don't have any clue, like how to reach back and invest in the next generation, I have great news for you. All you need is God's Word.    So, I mean, the littlest learners, the children in the community, I think they are the most gracious recipients of anybody in our community, you know, just when it comes to God's Word. And so, look for ways that you can encourage the younger people in your sphere of influence, in your local church, with God's Word. And often I think that just starts with maybe even meditating on one verse. You know, it can be that simple. Or for me, one way that I want to encourage, you know, the children in my life with God's Word is by identifying ways that I see God working in their lives and naming it. I mean, how encouraging would that be if an older saint in the church said, "Hey, you know, I don't know, my oldest daughter's name is Hadley. Hey, Hadley, like, I see God working in you. You are showing kindness, you know, to the other children in the church. Thank you so much for that. And I'm just praising God for the work he's doing in your life," you know.    But I think in order for them to do that, right, they have to be willing to be inconvenienced by being around the children. And we just had a sermon on this, a wonderful sermon from the book of Mark about Jesus saying, "Let the little children come to me." And so, I think just realizing that Jesus himself, right, he was unbothered. He delighted in the presence of children. So, I think in our older age, you know, especially after you have young kids and you've done all of your time, you know, investing in the next generation in that way, just realizing that there is value in serving in kids' ministry or children's ministry in the church and just getting around the children to be able to give yourself the opportunity to know them in a way where you can meet them with the truths of God's Word. It could also be just having younger families in your home. And I know that can be such an inconvenience. I mean, we're a hot mess. We are so chaotic. And I know, you know, you even have to consider the breakables. Like, you got to protect those, you know, when we come into the house. But figure out, like, what does hospitality look like where we can welcome in younger children, the families with younger children in the home, seek to encourage the parents. I mean, truly, Laura, what else are we doing here? Like, we have been given two things. We have been given the mission of evangelizing and discipling. And that message is the same.    At the heart of both of those things is the gospel. The gospel is for salvation and for sanctification. And so, if you're an older person in the church, keep meditating on the gospel. Keep, you know, seeking to disseminate the truths of the gospel to everybody around you. And remember, the littlest of these, I think, are the most eager learners. And it's such a great opportunity.    Laura Dugger: (39:36 - 39:52) Goodness, I love that. And as you say, disseminate these truths of the gospel for both salvation and sanctification. Can you even share clearly what is that gospel that applies to everyone?    Hunter Beless: (39:53 - 43:58) Oh, yes. I mean, this is the good news that I continually am rehearsing over and over and over again. I think for me, you know, I realized as a young child that the gospel was for salvation, right? That I love the Titus 3. You know, I just wrote this Bible study on Titus with Courtney Docter. If you don't have, like, a great comprehensive kind of gospel text that you've got in your back pocket, I think Titus 3:3-7 is a wonderful text to commit to memory. It says, "So, we are sinners." Romans 3:23. You know, we were created by God to glorify him. And yet, we have chosen to glorify ourselves. Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." So, we too were once foolish. I think it's easy to see that when you really think about your life. You know, like, even me testifying to my life in high school. We too were once foolish. There's no getting around that. But we too, let me see, where am I now? "But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us," "not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy," So, how does he save us? Well, he sent his son, Jesus. When did the kindness of God our Savior appear? Well, it appeared over 2,000 years ago. In a stable in Bethlehem. When, like you said, God sent his son to live a perfect life. And then he gave his life on the cross so, that we might have right relationship with God. He saved us. Not by works of righteousness, but according to his mercy, "By the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."    So, when, and by the way, he rose from the grave. Let's see, is that in here? I don't know. But let's see. That one's not in this particular gospel text of Titus 3:3-7. But we know that from the gospels, right? That Jesus Christ died on the cross. And that he rose again three days later. Overcoming death. So, that we too might not have to experience eternal death. We get to experience eternal life. When we turn from our sin and trust in him. And that's when that washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit happens. We're filled with the spirit. He's poured out his spirit on us. Verses 6 and 7 says, "whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." And so, I think part of what it looks like for us to live with that hope of eternal life. Is to constantly be reflecting upon who we were apart from Christ. Who we are in Christ. And who we will be when we one day see Christ again. Face to face. And so, that for me is what it looks like. Just to relish in the gospel. To remember the gospel.    Even when I was talking earlier, Laura, about feeling overwhelmed. The temptation for me then is to feel down on myself. And to wrestle with shame. Because I've over committed, right? But I'm rehearsing the truths of the gospel to myself in that moment. And saying, "Okay. Yes, could I have planned my schedule better? Yes, could I have done all these things? But you know what? I, by God's grace, get instead to rest in the grace that the gospel provides for me in this moment. Knowing that with all these various responsibilities, I am not going to be executing them perfectly. But he has perfectly accomplished my salvation on the cross. And so, I can rest in his son. Knowing that my salvation is not based on my perfect performance. But on the performance of Christ." And that then again helps me then to relish in the gospel. To remember the gospel, like I said, is not just for that moment of salvation or justification. When we're saved from our sins and made right with God. But it's also for every moment of every day. Because we need it all the time. At least I do.    Laura Dugger: (44:00 - 44:20) Yes, absolutely. And I think we can hear that or repeat that so, often. But I love how you unpack it. Because especially for those who have been saved. When they rely on the gospel for sanctification. Can you give any more examples of what that looks like? Specifically for sanctification after the salvation?    Hunter Beless: (44:21 - 46:35) Yeah. I think it's just coming to a greater understanding of our desperate need for Jesus. And then as we rely on him more wholly. I think we're conformed even more into the image of his son. Just after that gospel hymn in Titus 3. Verse 8 says, "The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works." So, what is sanctification? Well, sanctification is growing in godliness. Or said another way, it's growing in good works. Right? So, we're not saved because of our good works. We're saved by the gospel so, that then we can produce good works. By God's grace. That's the sanctification process. And so, how does that happen? Well, verse 8 tells us, "The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things." What does it want us to insist on? It wants us to insist then on the contents of the gospel from Titus 3:3-7. So, we need to, in order to grow in our ability to do good to others. What do we do? We insist on the gospel.    And how does that work? Well, when I am feeling, again, overbooked, overwhelmed. And somebody comes into my life that needs service. If I'm functioning by the world's wisdom, what am I going to say? "You know what? I just don't have the margin for that. I can't do that. I need to protect my time." But if I'm looking at the gospel, what do I see? Well, I see what Christ died for me. Was that act of service self-protective in any way? No. So, what does it look like for me then to lay down my life for the good of another? And that's how the gospel then informs our living in such a way that we begin to grow by God's grace, not by our own effort, in godliness. So, I think that's how the sanctification process kind of works itself out.    Laura Dugger: (46:35 - 46:54) Thank you so much for sharing that. And you've taught us already so, much in this time together. But you've also written a book recently for children. Can you tell us a little bit more about it and share the lasting truths that you want to impart to children who get to read or listen to your book?    Hunter Beless: (46:55 - 49:47) Yeah. I think it started for me with really thinking about what are those kinds of scriptural, biblical truths that I want to offer to the children in these everyday moments like we've been talking about. My son, I already shared, he's been struggling with sleep for the last year or so,. And he'll come tumbling down the stairs in the middle of the night. And my initial reaction to that is to want to say, "It's okay. Mommy's here." Right? And that's true. And I do think that offers some temporal comfort. And it is a good thing for a mother to be present in the time of a child's need. But thinking more deeply, I began to say, "Buddy, God is with you. You have no need to fear." And the reason for that is because I started thinking about, well, what if mommy wasn't here? What if I wasn't able to be here? And some of that came just from having lost my own father in the last few years to cancer spontaneously. And just thinking, like, what are the lasting truths that I then want to impart to my children when I'm no longer able to be present? So, it is true. It's comfort that mommy is here in your time of need. But also, even when mommy's not able to be here, remember, God is with you always.  And it's been such an encouragement for me then to even see him, like, on the playground and his little buddy will get hurt. And he'll turn and he'll tell his buddy, like, "It's okay. God's with you." You know what I'm thinking? "That's so, good. Like, this is the kind of stuff that I want to be just ingrained within the children so, that their initial reaction is, 'It's okay. God is with me.'" Similarly, the message that is repeated throughout the book is, "Jesus Loves You More". And that was really instigated from one of my children requesting for me to say over and over again this popular phrase that we've all heard, "I love you to the moon and back." And I started thinking, like, "Okay, that's true. I do. I love you to the moon and back. I love you to the, you know, mountaintop and to the ocean floor. I love you as far as the east is from the west. But there is one who loves you even more than I ever could. And in fact, when my love fails you, His never will." And so, I wanted to get that.    If there's one message that I want my kids to know, it's that. It's that Jesus loves them so, much that he went all the way to the cross at Calvary and gave his very life so, that they could be made right with God. So, that's the message that I hope kids will take away from the book. I do hope that it inspires parents to think about what are those lasting truths that they want to impart to their kids. And I hope it equips them then to be able to share what I believe as Christian parents is the most important message we could ever give.    Laura Dugger: (49:48 - 49:54) I just want to acknowledge too, I'm so, sorry for the sudden loss of your father in recent years.    Hunter Beless: (49:55 - 50:19) Well, thank you. Yeah, it's, you know, my kids were just saying as we were hiking this last weekend, they're like, "We miss puppy." But we're like, I'm at a point now where I did go through many years of grief, missing him, you know, all of this. But just relishing in the fact that he's in the presence of the Lord Jesus. And I am just so grateful because he's in a much better place. So, I'm looking forward to the day that I get to join him there. Amen.    Laura Dugger: (50:20 - 50:28) Well, Hunter, you've already given us so much, but where can we go to continue being discipled by you after this conversation?    Hunter Beless: (50:30 - 51:14) Well, if you like conversations like this, you know, I infrequently show up at Journey Women. We used to do a weekly show and then it turned to bi-weekly and now we're seasonal. But I do love having conversations just like this. And I hope that, you know, just as our conversation today, I hope it encourages women just to get together, like you said, with women in their local context to open up God's word. And just to go deeper, relationally, conversationally, to come together around the truths of God's word. You've asked such great questions, Laura. And I think take some of these questions and ask your friends and see where the Lord guides those conversations. I think that'll just be such a blessing. It's been a blessing to meet and chat with you today.    Laura Dugger: (51:15 - 51:32) Well, I've loved every minute. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight or discernment. And so, as my final question for you today, Hunter, what is your Savvy Sauce?    Hunter Beless: (51:34 - 52:28) Oh, you try to nail me down to something practical. It's funny, Laura, because I feel like I resist practical. And I'm not sure what it is about me that resists practical other than maybe sometimes I felt like bound in by people's practical advice. Does that make sense? And so, for me, here's my practical advice. My practical advice is to allow all of your practices or your practicals to be informed by the principles of the text. So, allow the principles of scripture to inform your practice. And that's not very practical, but I think the only practical way you can do that is to get your face in your Bible and to really seek to know and love God through his word. And then he will certainly help inform your practice.    Laura Dugger: (52:30 - 56:34) I think that's actually more practical than you realize. That is wonderful. And Hunter, your joy and your laugh are just contagious. And you're clearly gifted from the Lord as a clear, articulate communicator. And it blesses so, many people in so many generations because you are able to filter in the truth and then communicate it in a way that's able to be received. So, it's been so encouraging to sit under your teaching and be inspired to take this out and to hopefully begin in our home. But also, those good works, as we're called as older women, too. None of us are exempt, as you said. So, I've just thoroughly enjoyed being with you. Thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much for having me. It's been so fun.   One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Parenting 0-18 With an Eternal Perspective: An Interview with Jessica Smartt (Episode 286)   Hebrews 12:11 NIV “No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it"   *Transcription Below*   Jessica Smartt is the author of Come On Home, Memory-Making Mom and Let Them Be Kids. She graduated college with an English degree, a religion minor and a hankering to pour into kids. After teaching middle school literature for five years, she was promoted to her current position and dream job: wife, homeschooling mom, author, and Professional Encourager of Intentional Moms. She lives in sunny North Carolina on a family farm with horses, chickens, and an ever-increasing number of beloved cats. She and her husband, Todd, have three beautiful children. She loves to energize everyday moms to save childhood and build close-knit families. Jessica's favorites include: bike rides, spinach quiche, a clean kitchen, being warm, national parks, and food that anyone else made. Connect with Jessica through Instagram or her website.   Thank you to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Questions and Topics We Cover: What questions can we ask ourselves as mothers to take inventory and get real about our capacity, health, and gifts? How can we purposefully make our home a place our family loves to be and we do too? Will you share a handful of your other favorite practical tips for building a strong family that we haven't covered yet?   Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: Making Family Memories with Jessica Smartt   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:14)   Laura Dugger: (0:15 - 1:23) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org.   My returning guest for today is Jessica Smartt. She has authored another brilliant book entitled, Come On Home: A Grace-Filled Guide to Raising a Family Who Loves (and Likes) Each Othe. You're not going to want to miss a minute of this episode because she answers every question with kindness and eternal wisdom, yet she still manages to share plenty of fun ideas and applicable tips.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jessica.   Jessica Smartt: (1:25 - 1:28)  Thanks so, much for having me. I'm excited about our conversation.   Laura Dugger: (1:29 - 1:44) Well, I've been looking so, forward to this, and it's been a few years since you were a guest on The Savvy Sauce, so, as you're looking back, can you just walk us through how your motherhood experience has changed from the early days to now currently?   Jessica Smartt: (1:46 - 3:36) Yeah, it has changed so, much, and I actually was thinking about this just on my own. God is so, good, and I don't know if everyone's experience is kind of like this. I look around and see very high-functioning young mothers, so, I'm thinking maybe not, but I just feel like those first couple years were such a struggle with a lot of mental illness and just anxiety, and probably that led into depression, too, and just feeling really overwhelmed. I do feel like a lot of it was sleep deprivation, which is a literal torture technique that armies use, so, I think just caring for my body better has actually been a huge thing, but also just God is just so, kind, and I think I mentioned in the book of just really early on having this moment where I thought I'm not any good to anybody, and I didn't fast-forward to see any of this, right?  I didn't know how it was going to end. I just knew I felt terrible, and I couldn't function and overcome with anxiety, and everything was blurry and overwhelming, and so, to then fast-forward and see personally in my own life the rewards of my kids are doing well, and I like being a mom a lot, and professionally that I'm even writing about it is stunning, so, it's a real redemption story to me, and just proof that also God uses those pits because it was out of that that I was able to actually gain traction even on my blog sharing about my personal experience and loss and weakness. God used that, so, I'm really grateful.   Laura Dugger: (3:36 - 3:45) That's incredible to get just a little picture of that journey, and can you update us with your kids' ages now as of today?   Jessica Smartt: (3:45 - 3:59) Yes, so, I have a 16-year-old boy. Last week we were visiting college, and that is very weird, and then a 14-year-old boy and an 11-year-old daughter.   Laura Dugger: (4:00 - 4:19) Okay, wonderful. So, regardless of what phase we're in as parents, do you have any recommendations for questions that we can begin to ask ourselves so that we can take inventory and get real about our capacity and our health and our gifts?   Jessica Smartt: (4:20 - 7:00) Right, yes, so, in Come on Home, that's kind of how I kick it off because I say, you know, you can't have the family that if in order to have the family you want or the home you want, you have to be honest about what you actually have and what you're starting with, and so, part of that is taking inventory of yourself and your life, and that's not something we often stop to do in the chaos and busyness, so, I asked what your capacity is and really just trying to help mom just think through preaching to myself here, like all the things that are on our plate, and is there something on our plate that the Lord maybe is not calling us to or that doesn't correlate and match to what our really core values are in life, and those are hard questions to ask, but they actually bring a lot of relief to just be honest with yourself about what's happening in your life and coming before the Lord and saying, you know, I'd literally say, like, make a list of all the things that you're doing and look at it and see if you should take any off, and the list is, you know, stunningly long for a lot of us, but yeah, so, that's just capacity, just kind of thinking through where we are and what we actually have the bandwidth to do, and then I talk about health and actually asking, like, your husband, if you're married, you know, how would you like me to care for myself better? What's one thing that you like when I do? And a lot of times I think we're really surprised when we hear the things they appreciate or what they'd like us to do, and they might just be giving us a really wonderful gift to go invest in an area in our life that we've been overlooking. So, and then gifts, that's a really fun one, too, because I'm not you and you're not me, and we're not the listeners, but God has uniquely equipped all of us to be the mom and the homemaker, you know, in our particular callings.   So, saying, like, are you a good organizer? Are you, you know, the fun mom, right, that I wish I was and I'm not? Are you, you know, the adventurer mom? Are you the crafty mom? You know, God has given, do you cook well and, you know, enjoy that? And everybody has a gift, that you're, whether you're, you know, a soft place to land for your kids and a good listener, or you're, you know, more drill sergeant-y, like those firstborns tend to be, and that is me, so, that's why I can say that. But just thinking about, like, what skills and gifts did God give me to lead my family well? And so, that was just kind of the ground-tilling up work before you think through, like, how can we build the family that we really want with the life that we actually have and the person we really are?   Laura Dugger: (7:01 - 8:14) And I love, that was one of the aspects of the book that I just appreciated. You sprinkle all these insightful questions throughout, and it is really great to reflect on those with the Lord or with the journal or in conversation, but you're encouraging us repeatedly to get a long-term vision of this parenting journey. And so, it makes me think, my husband works with Chick-fil-A, and oftentimes he's encouraged to be careful not to just get caught up working in the business, but to pull back and work on the business, and it's actually better for everybody. And I just think as parents, we need that same reminder to kind of lift up our eyes, get a different view, and get above these urgent, incessant needs of today and look at where we're going. And I think the Bible speaks a lot to that with being prudent. And you challenge us with that long-term view to actually take an eternal view in parenting, which is inevitably going to impact how we steward our time and our decision making. So, can you speak to both of those?   Jessica Smartt: (8:16 - 10:23) Yeah, I mean, the eternal, the perspective, I think I said, you know, there's the Bible verse about you reap what you sow, and we think of it as like a cautionary warning. And it is, but it's also just a true statement of how life works, meaning what you invest in, and what you spend your time in, what you care about, what the things you're actually doing is where you're going to see growth. And so, if I am investing in my home, I'm going to see fruit in there. Now, of course, it's not a one-to-one, it's not a slot machine. So, you know, we don't know exactly what it's going to look like. And God is so, good to cover up even over the areas that we've done a bad job in. But in general, you can't expect to grow cucumbers if you've been planting tomatoes. Like what you've been planting in the ground is what's going to grow up. And so, that's just like, even though it's kind of like fancy wordy language, it's always just a good reminder to me to think like, what am I actually spending my time doing?   I want a family that, like I was a recipient of, that's warm and inviting and you want to be around. And in order to get that, like you have to plant it. And so, that's a lot of being present as a mom and which is so, hard, very hard. But I just wanted to not lay a burden on moms, but really just encourage them like, do those things that are going to reap the life you actually want in the long term.  And of course, you mentioned the word eternity, that's planning, building disciples. And so, that is a very long road. You know, you're not going to always see the fruit of that, you know, immediately. But keeping our eye on, you know, I want to raise kids that are living out the calling that God has placed on their lives and are going out into this world to be truth and light. Like, oh my goodness, so, many hard, boring conversations that you have to have, but you have to, like that's, that's part of the equation.   Laura Dugger: (10:26 - 11:35) I think that even that piece is with discipline too, which is one of my least favorite parts of parenting. I don't know if others relate to that, but a verse that I find so, encouraging is Hebrews 12:11, that "no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful later on. However, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." And so, I love that encouragement you're giving to a parent for the long view, and you bring up your family of origin. You write so much about this gratitude you have for your parents and something you wrote really stuck with me where you say someone was always home, both physically and metaphorically, someone was paying attention. So, Jessica, what caution do you want to share with any parents today who may be tempted to let go a little too early, a little too soon and too young, whether that's with technology or even just being physically present?   Jessica Smartt: (11:36 - 14:25) I think it's just so, important for moms and dads to receive their instructions, not from the world, but from the Lord, because the culture right now is okaying and even encouraging parenting that is not godly parenting. We have so many distractions and we are pulled towards our phones, towards our own personal growth and flourishing, which is okay. You know, of course we want us to be healthy as we just mentioned, but at the expense of the kids that God has put in our lives, that is what, that is the messaging you're going to receive from the world. If you're hanging out with people who do not have a biblical worldview, that is going to be how they're spending their time.  And it's not a judgment statement. It's just, it is an observation that they, that is not, the focus is not, I'm going to sit and, you know, maybe at one point culturally years and years ago, it really was more family oriented, but it is not anymore.  It just simply is not. And, you know, it masquerades under that as, you know, oh, we're all going to the soccer game together and we're going to go watch the gymnastics performance or whatever it is. But that, that is not always true discipling of your children.   That's kind of being present in a cursory way and not truly and really, to really pay attention and really be present with your kids is going to look vastly different than what the rest of the world is doing.  And if it doesn't, you got to check. And I, I'm saying this as absolutely of myself, you know, there are moms that are just on their phone, and I can do that as well. I've had to put in, we can talk about specifics, but I've had to put in like specific things in my, in my actual phone, you know, and in my life parameters and guidelines so that I'm not doing that. But no one in the world is going to tell you not to, that's normal to just be stuck on your phone as a mom, as a kid, whatever. And so, a like, where are you getting your voice? That's saying how to parent, who are the voices that are speaking into your life?  Are you listening to older and wiser mentors? Are you reading really good books? Are you putting yourself in the word first thing in the morning or are you just floating around with whatever culture says to do? And I don't mean to sound judgy here because I am deeply convicted even as I'm speaking this of like, am I living this? I'm not always, it's very, very hard. But I just think we first, first step is, you know, to orient yourself to the Lord and how would he have you parent?  Not what is everyone else okay with doing? Cause it's going to look very different.   Laura Dugger: (14:26 - 16:54)  Okay. I love that with kind of the emphasis on; it does require a sacrifice from us with that quality and quantity time. And it makes me think on page 38 of your book, you encourage us to take the time to know each child, helping them find their passion, abilities, gifts, and interests.  And that really does bless both the child and the parent. And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. From premarital to parenting to the emptiness phase, there is an opportunity for you. 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S-A-V-V-Y.  Thanks for your sponsorship.   So, Jessica, what has this looked like in your home? And can you give us some ideas?   Jessica Smartt: (16:56 - 19:19) Yeah, I just think it is so, easy for us to have our own expectations of what our kids are, and even to speak that over them from the minute they come out of the womb, whether it's, oh, we've just pinned them as to be this, or it's something that we are, or something that we want them to be. But instead to look and see like, who is this actual child that's been created? And I thought of, you know, years and years ago, my son was like, itching to do something, you know, they get to be like nine, 10. And they start feeling like, you know, they need something other than mom in the house. And we were kind of praying about it and thinking it through. And he said, “I think I really would like to play soccer.”   And at the time, we were pretty, pretty committed into the baseball world. And I was like, no, you know, I had friendships with the parents, and we liked the coach, and we were already there. And soccer was this whole thing I didn't even know, you know, I was like, no.  And honestly, I waited for a year or two. But now my both my boys are in a semi travel league. It's not like all out driving all across the country, but they've been able to play at a higher level.  And they're doing amazing. It's clearly what they were meant to do. And I couldn't miss out on that just by being like, no, you know, that's not what you do.   Like, you know, so, just being open as a parent to really like, what are they good at? And it may not be what you thought it may not be what you are good at. My daughter loves to make a giant mess in the kitchen, giant and cook. And oh, my goodness, it is very hard for me because I'm like a keep it clean.  Don't use all the ingredients. But I've been convicted to really, you know, let her explore these gifts. I have a friend whose daughter is making these elaborate birthday cakes. I mean, like the most crazy food network kind of thing. And I saw it and thought, I know what that kitchen must have looked like when you let her do that. That was a lot of days and afternoons of you letting her waste the flour and make a big mess.  But the fruit is, it's incredible. And, so, yeah, sacrificing what we want to let them grow into, you know, and God is so, good.   Like if we don't know what it is, pray with your kid, like you, what did you, what is your thing?  What do you think God's made you to do? We, you know, need an activity. What, what, let's ask God, like what he wants you to do. I've never prayed a prayer like that that hasn't been answered and never.   Laura Dugger: (19:20 - 19:47)  Oh, that's so, good. I mean, we think of for friendship for ourselves or with our children or activities that they want to do, just hopefully that's what we keep being reminded of is bring it to the Lord rather than seeking out those voices and culture and see what his perfect plan is. But you also write an entire chapter on the power of time. So, will you share some of your applicable wisdom here?   Jessica Smartt: (19:49 - 22:15)  Yes. And you know, don't mind me while I actually get out the book, because even though you wrote it, sometimes you're like, what exactly did I say? Um, but thinking through like activities that our family has signed up for, as I mentioned, you know, I was kind of like connected in that baseball mindset.  And so, was it actually the right thing for my kids? Maybe or maybe not. And so, I talked through like at questions to ask, you know, as a husband and wife about where our family's going and what activities our kids are doing, which is a giant question today.   I don't think parents are thoughtful enough about what they're signing up for and what they're doing. And you get, you know, mid-November and your schedule is completely packed and your kids having meltdowns and you're never eating dinner together. And you're like, how did we get to this life? But it was a little bit of like, not quite following the path ahead mentally to see what it would look like. And I would just encourage anybody right now that it's not too late to rearrange, even if you have to quit something, even if it costs a deposit, even if you have to back out, like we are not as trapped as we think we are. And if you're doing something in your family that's not healthy, or, you know, it's not benefiting you stop, like no one's gonna, you know, anyway.   So, as you're thinking through activities, I talked about the interest question, which means like, is your kid actually there? Or is it like you that's kind of getting more out of this? And then I talked about the mealtime question.  And maybe we'll get to this, but family meals are so important. They really are. Even if it is, you know, not hours of sitting there with candlelight, whatever, just to have that checkpoint together. So, is your activity schedule, allowing you to uphold whatever your values are with meals? I'm not gonna tell you what they are, but is that what you want, really? And then the whole family question.   You know, I've seen a lot, and we've lived it too, of like the younger kid being getting drug around to the older talented kid's activities.  That's really a hard one, right? And so, I'm not saying don't do that. Sometimes families are gonna just look like that for seasons. But I do think it's worth stopping to say, what is it like right now to be that youngest child? What are they going through?  And am I being kind to them? You know, are there switches we can kind of make in the family? Because it's, you know, the family is not about one person and their talents. It's a holistic, healthy, functioning unit.   Laura Dugger: (22:18 - 23:21)  Absolutely. So, even, I hear you saying, evaluating, again, kind of taking inventory. What is on the family plate? How is that affecting every human in the unit of the family?  Is that taking us where we want to go? Just being, I love how you use the word thoughtful. Just being full of thoughts of this and taking it to the Lord of what's the wise thing to do. And for all of us, I think with that time question, it does lead us to the question of, who are we spending the most time with? Because that will significantly impact our lives.  It'll impact our children as well. So, do you have any other, I love those questions. Any other lessons that you've learned? I'm thinking especially related to activities and youth sports come to mind because our culture really has gone to the side of idolizing it and catering everything else around that. So, do you have any other wisdom to share on that topic?   Jessica Smartt: (23:23 - 25:48)  Yeah, I mean, I'll just share. Personally, we have decided to have our kids play at a level that is probably sub what their talent could be. And I don't know.  I guess time will tell. If they look back and they were like, mom, I really, you know, could have, but I have a hunch that they won't. I more often am seeing in my friends and stuff that it's like, they get into high school, and the kids are kind of starting to feel burnt out. Or they're like, you know, it's so, hard right now to be, I mean, not even a professional, let's say soccer player, but at college, it's like unheard of.  It's the elite, elite. And so, it's like, why are you doing this anyway?   And we've had several opportunities to compete at higher levels and try out for things that we have said no to, you know, because it would require being gone more nights, it would require tons of time in the car, it would be families away on the weekends.  So, we have some of that. I think it's important when you have boys, especially to let them have an outlet to compete as we, if you know, I homeschool as you do. And so, if you have a homeschooled teenage boy, they should probably be doing something right. So, I am not saying sit at home and, you know, play Monopoly every night as a family. But, we have chosen to prioritize other things.   And so, so far, I am super grateful for that. We had a season where we were way too busy with baseball. And it was the boys were like 10 and 12. And Monday through Thursday, one of them had a different we were never eating together Monday through Thursday, Saturdays, we were taking off different directions. I could never understand why we had to drive two hours to play a team. I'm like, there's so, many baseball players right in this neighborhood.  Can we not find a team? And God use that it's fine. But, but I don't I don't envy that season.   And I'm really grateful for some of the breathing room that we've had. And also, I would say my son, my oldest son is a gifted guitar player and singer. And he would not be able to do that. If we were 110% in one of those other sports, he would not have any time to even pursue those other interests.  You just never know. You know, I think white space and mental white space and time, I talk about this and let them be kids is so important for just developing as a person. No one flourishes well with a completely jam-packed schedule. And so, how would we expect our children to, you know, that is good.   Laura Dugger: (25:48 - 26:02)  That is so, wise. And how can we strategically connect with our kids so that they do feel seen, and known and loved and liked?   Jessica Smartt: (26:03 - 27:54)  Yes. I mean, that feels overwhelming, doesn't it? But and I talked through in the book kind of each one of those categories. But I know this is going to sound cliche, but I would just say a like recognizing that if a kid doesn't feel like you like them, they're going to notice that. And so, it doesn't matter all the extra things what you're getting them for Christmas, and where you're they're taking them if they really genuinely feel like you're kind of annoyed with them. They know that.   And that's, that's not great. So, I would say first step before you get into any practicals and pancake breakfast and all that is just like, if you are feeling that way to your kid, a don't feel guilty. It's natural.  We all have that at times. And be come before God and just say, these are the feelings I'm dealing with. Can you please help me here? And again, to quote myself, I've never prayed that prayer and it not been answered.  God has always shown up in some way. And so, often what it looks like I talk about in being liked is just like genuinely working on something that you have in common.   I think my parents did that so, well with us. And it wasn't the same thing because my siblings and I are all different. But they really worked to always find common ground and always have that relationship bucket full, right? My mom is like big on, you know, don't make too many withdrawals unless you have made a lot of deposits. And they lived that for years and years and years of pouring into us and genuinely connecting with us. So, way harder to do than to say, but that's our goal. And I do actually have a lot of specific ideas in the book of random ways you can love your kids, love languages and all of that. But yeah, asking God for help.   Laura Dugger: (27:55 - 28:09) And sometimes it's just helpful to hear what somebody else does, even if that's not exactly how it'll apply to our situation. But can you just give one example of a way that you use your child's love language, maybe both for one of your sons and your daughter?   Jessica Smartt: (28:11 - 29:33) Well, I've learned a lot about my middle child, and he loves the comfort things in life. So, if I see him struggling with school or something, I can bring him, you know, yogurt parfait or he likes coffee. So, we give our kids coffee.  Don't sue us anyway. But if I make him a cup of coffee, oh, you can just see it in his face. It's like, oh, mom loves me, you know?  He's one that even like if I go make his bed, he'll appreciate that. Not every kid is like that. But just kind of seeing and noticing the things that he likes.   That's been kind of something that we do. And then my daughter loves to tell stories, long, long stories. And I'm working so hard to not only like, I want to listen, but also, you know, teach her how to condense. Because Jordan Peterson says, don't let your kid become someone that is, you know, not pleasant to be around.  If you're struggling with something, someone else will, too. And she's an absolute delight.  I mean, truly. But so, just listening to her stories and kind of working on the art of conversation. My mom always said, play tennis, conversation tennis. So, you hit the ball, and then I hit the ball back to you. So, we're working on that, you know?   Laura Dugger: (29:35 - 30:05)  Absolutely. That reciprocity is huge. If you take turns asking questions, it reminds me, a previous guest, Jodi Berndt, had also said, in addition to that, let's also teach our children how to serve the ball. So, to initiate that, I just thought that that's so good. I'll work that in. Jessica, how can we purposefully make our home a place our family loves to be? And we do, too.   Jessica Smartt: (30:07 - 31:52) I have been learning so, much about this in this stage of life, you know, in my 40s.  And again, it's hard when you have little kids. So, I think you can probably say across the board, it's going to look different when you're raising little kids to have a warm and wonderful inviting home than it is in your later years when your kids are older, and you have more time.  But I would just challenge moms. Well, I look back and I think, if I hadn't been so, stretched thin and put unrealistic expectations on myself in other areas of life, I maybe could have invested in my home a little bit more. And the thing I have learned is that having a home that's peacefully run just reaps so, many benefits for a woman and her family.   And I am behind the curve, I feel like, on this. But as I have learned to organize my space and really pour myself into my home, not feeling like it's a waste of time to organize a pantry. It is amazing how it blesses my family.  People notice it. And it's hard to even articulate it because you wouldn't even think that if you clean out a closet, it's going to bless your family. But it really actually does.  And my husband benefits from it. He's not even like a strict, everything has to be clean. But when I've worked on something in the home, he sees it and notices it and appreciates it. So, God has just been teaching me so, much about what it looks like to really be like a homemaker, a godly homemaker and pour myself into my home. And I have reaped so much joy and peace from living out that role and calling in my life.   Laura Dugger: (31:53 - 32:23) That was one of the quotes I wrote down that observation that you made on page 142. And I'll just quote you, "when I do something to invest in our home, every single member of our family brightens." And I exactly great and you gave practical ways of how we can do that. And I also like it because it gives a little freedom because we're one of the family members too. And I think we brighten when we get that space in order.   Jessica Smartt: (32:24 - 33:06)  Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Again, back to our earlier like cultural, cultural narrative versus biblical. There's like a, there's a lot of messaging about that it doesn't matter to really invest in your home and your family. And that's just not how God made the world to operate. So, I would challenge moms that even if they are doing what the rest of everyone is doing, and it's like, ah, it looks like a bomb went off in here. Like, um, you know, that may not be how God is calling us to live with a giant disclaimer that there are seasons of life that it truly does look like a bomb went off.  And that is okay. We are doing good gospel work, raising children.   Laura Dugger: (33:07 - 33:46)  Absolutely. But then also I think Proverbs 31 sometimes gets a bad rap, but really there's a lot of freedom in it for women because it is how the Lord created us, but she does look well to the ways of her household. And I think that just summed up, she's one of the members of the household, but so is everybody else. And that's one thing that can bless everyone, but you are just full and abundant with ideas, and you have an appendix in the book full of resources to help us maintain and take care of all our responsibilities. So, will you share a few of those ideas with us?   Jessica Smartt: (33:47 - 34:46) Um, yes, I, and maybe this is my homeschool mom speaking, but I have just learned so, much from other good books. I have, it's truly changed my life just in whether it's talking about personal health or discipline or marriage or prayer or my home. So, the thing I'm really actually most proud about in the appendix is my list of recommended resources. And it's just all the books that have impacted me as a mom and also impacted my writing too.  Um, I'll, I'll mention one. I think, uh, I don't know if everyone has read A Praying Life, but that has completely transformed not only my walk with the Lord, but my prayer life.  And I've implemented, um, it's Paul Miller, I believe his idea for prayer cards. And I do that every morning. Um, it has been the sweetest thing, and I've really reaped a lot of blessing out of kind of modeling what he sets up in that book.  So, that's just one example. If you haven't read A Praying Life, you should definitely go read it.   Laura Dugger: (34:47 - 35:20)  That's awesome. And I don't know if this ties in, but I'm just remembering back one of the podcasts that I heard you speak on. You share your definition of godly self-care, and you say that it's whatever helps you do your job well and not at the sacrifice of others. So, can you elaborate with some encouragement for how we can make sure that we don't go to either side, that we don't neglect ourselves, but we also continue with this merrymaking for our family.   Jessica Smartt: (35:21 - 38:22)  Right. Yes. And, um, that definition, I always want to be like, you know, the end part about not to the sacrifice of someone else. When I had a young, I think I had two kids and my baby was six weeks old.  I had a very qualified, loving teenage girl. Watch my two kids while my husband and I left for literally an hour to go to five guys and get burgers.  And my youngest was not thrilled. He did not prefer the bottle. So, in some ways his life was unsettled for a brief moment, but that was okay. So, I think everyone knows when I say, um, you know, not to the sacrifice of everyone else.   What I'm saying is like looking at the family and certainly we shouldn't be like living this plush and well-watered life and someone else's withering away. So, it's a general statement of, you know, that it would be too far, as you said, on the extreme of, and I do think that happens honestly, because we're all self-centered.  It's not that we don't love our kids. We're just trained to care about ourselves. But many women struggle on the other side of, um, maybe neglecting some areas in their life that could truly help them to be better wives and better moms. And, um, it's a really fun activity to think like, what, how could I change my life a little bit in a way that I would be a better wife and mom.   And I'm not meaning that to justify any sort of behavior that, you know, you want to do, because you certainly could use that for almost anything. Um, but really to think like, how can I be the best mom and wife that I could possibly be? And it might mean making some, giving yourself some breathing room. And I would also encourage women to, um, one of the best uses for that time is to work on your marriage because there's direct overflow into the family. And so, best case, I gave some ideas of like family adventures that can kind of fill your cup along with everyone else. And I would say maybe next best or equal would-be husband, wife stuff where you can check out, connect, and you're overflowing and ready to enter back into family life.   And then finally things that it's certainly fine to just step out and find those things that are life giving to you, but just trying to keep an eye on, you know, how is everyone in the family doing? And there might be seasons.  I think of my mom caring for her mom who had dementia. She wasn't really well watered in that season. She was, she was quite depleted, but that's what the Lord had been calling her to do at that period of time. Um, and we often were like, mom, you've got to like, we thought she did too much, you know?  Um, but looking back, I think she really is so grateful that she laid down her life. There's not regret.  And so, I'm like, well, maybe she was right all along. I don't know.   Laura Dugger: (38:23 - 38:58)  Good though. The both and to have seasons of that, where we can refresh so, that when we go into a season where it's a little bit prior, we can be serving hopefully still from the overflow. But you also just blew me away in the book with your knowledge on roots. And the subtitle of that chapter is "recipes, relics, relatives, and other things that keep kids grounded." So, will you just teach us a little bit more about roots and share how it applies to building a strong family?   Jessica Smartt: (39:00 - 40:51)  Yes, I would like to shout out to my husband who is in the landscaping business. So, he helped me. I was like, hey, can you please give me some fun facts about roots?  And he was thrilled. But um, one thing I mentioned is that most plant problems are caused by root issues. And gosh, have I seen that in real life, like even as an adult, you notice somebody that is carrying still issues that they're working through from their childhood. And so, what a gift we're giving our kids by giving them those strong, good roots and a healthy, you know, childhood to enter into adulthood, not crippled by things, but that they can give out of strength.   And my husband and I feel like, you know, although our families of origin were not perfect, we lived that story, we were able to go out in strength, and not, you know, carrying all this emotional baggage. That's what I would like to give my kids. So, um, but then yeah, at the end, I share that the most integral roots to the plant's wellbeing are the ones right near the surface. And I thought, what a kind of cool parallel that even if we, you know, I've shared about my experience, but someone listening may not have good roots, and they really might struggle with having support and partnership. But they can give a new story to their kids. They can give them the roots that they did not have through the Lord's strength.  And I have found friends that I'm literally seeing them do it. But they are they are crippled. And you know, in therapy and dealing with all this trauma, but they're passing a different story on to their kids.  And how cool is that? I have so much admiration for that. It seems like it's something that really only can be done through the Lord's strength, but he does it. He writes those stories.   Laura Dugger: (40:51 - 41:11)  And he seems to delight in redemption stories. So, I appreciate you sharing that. And I'd love to continue kind of this idea time. Will you just share another handful of your favorite practical tips for building a strong family that are topics we haven't covered yet?   Jessica Smartt: (41:13 - 43:16) Well, I would start with one thing I have seen huge rewards is if we do sort of like a secret Santa idea, and we actually do it also before Valentine's Day and do you know, your cupids arrow, whatever, because it just changes your whole mindset when you're suddenly thinking, how can I, you know, love this person in my family, you're in a better mood.  And so, we divide up names. And then we also do like acts of service. And that is just such a fun, like low keyway to kind of get your kids to think about loving their siblings instead of being annoyed by them. We have loved doing game nights, and we're not like big game people. But finding ones that I think my encouragement would be that it doesn't have to be like this long three-hour thing.   If your family's not into that, we've done like minute to win at games that I just pulled up online.  We have a lot of games that are like, no mental stress. They're very easy, like Slopsy. If anybody has not played Slopsy, they need to pick it up. It's you could play it if you were extremely tired, which I often am at the end of the day. So, to find some like quip, there's also what do you mean family edition.  And that is a fun one. And I have some other games listed in the book too, for readers who are interested. So, those would be two. We also do like one-on-one activities with the kids. And I always thought you had to do it like really, really regularly. But I would just give the encouragement that some is better than none. And so, even if it's only a couple times a year, kids just soak that up. And it doesn't need to be, you know, this whole long thing, it could be like, hey, you need some new winter pants. Let's get a Chick-fil-A milkshake beforehand. You know, just to kind of keep your eyes open for those activities and opportunities.   Laura Dugger: (43:17 - 43:47)  Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com. Can you also share this genius idea about something that you put on the notes app of your phone?   Jessica Smartt: (43:48 - 44:50)  Yeah, so, I talked about the power of stories. Kids love hearing stories from our, you know, youth or young adulthood or even, you know, married years, whatever. So, I got in the habit of sharing a story with my daughter before bed. And of course, at night, you aren't always on your A game. So, I just have a note app on my phone to track different things that I might want to tell her. And my encouragement was that it doesn't need to be, we think it needs to be like this long, significant story, but even just little tidbits of things she has been delighted to hear over and over. You know, just like a passing, you know, anecdote that didn't seem to me to be too pregnant with meaning, but she just ate it up and loved hearing about all of the different things. So, yeah, that was just again, it didn't cost a lot. It's not hard, but just a little thing that kind of connected us and also connected her to a deeper sense of like, here's your roots of the people that raised you.   Laura Dugger: (44:53 - 45:36) I loved that idea because my daughters or our daughters will just catch us off guard and say, hey, share a story about us share a story about when you were little or when I was little. And so, I love your system that you have in place that when that idea comes to me, I can jot it down. And then when they ask unexpectedly, I'm prepared.  So, thought that was wonderful. And you've written an entire book on memories. So, I'll link to our previous episode where we talk about that.  And we dove into that topic. But you've updated your ideas in this book and come up with the most epic list of memory making ideas ever. So, could you just share a couple of those to give us a taste of what you include?   Jessica Smartt: (45:37 - 46:43) Yes, so, I think my favorite was at the end the chapter talking about surprises because I love the idea of surprising your kid. And when I talked about when I was little, my grandparents showed up at our school in their RV to take us camping. So, just thinking through like just different, a lot of those are like the big, you know, birthday or vacation or Christmas gifts. But even if you did it just one time, that's like a that can be like a core memory in you know, your kid's life.   When I was researching this, for the appendix, I reached out to a lot of my readers, and they had the most fun ideas of just creative family memory making things. And one that I remembered that I thought, I don't know if I have the guts to do this, but I think that this family came up with it during COVID. So, they were a little bit bored, and they packed a picnic and went to a stop sign. And when they got to one, they would roll a dice to see which direction they would turn until they ended up at a good picnic spot. She said it was harder than you would think.   Laura Dugger: (46:45 - 47:02)  That's hilarious. I love the creativity and that element of surprise. That is so, good. Well, I hope that everybody goes out to get a copy of your amazing book. But where else would you want to direct us to connect online after this chat?   Jessica Smartt: (47:03 - 47:15)  Yeah, definitely come say hi on Instagram. I'm Jessica Smartt with two Ts. And you can tell me what you enjoyed about our conversation. And I'm usually every so, often we'll check the messages, but I do get back to you.   Laura Dugger: (47:16 - 47:34)  Love it. We'll add links to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Jessica, you're already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical. And so, my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Jessica Smartt: (47:36 - 48:09)So, what has changed my life, I really think is, and this isn't like the most exciting thing, but walking every single day, and I walk with my weighted vest. So, I look like every other 40-year-old woman that is out there. We have a little trail around our farm. So, I, it's, I honestly have like seen so, much change in my mental health and physical health. And I know they say that on all of these, you know, resources and stuff. And I never thought it was true. But it really has changed my life just to walk every day.   Laura Dugger: (48:11 - 52:21)  Amen, sister, I totally agree with that. That is so, well said. You are just a brilliant and faithful and godly and humble woman. You're gifted with your communication with your words in this conversation and in the books that you've shared with the world.  And I am just so grateful for you, Jessica. Thank you so much for being my guest today.  Well, thank you for those kind words.   One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Luke 3:21-23 (NIV)Luke 4:1-13 (NIV)Romans 8:14-17 (NIV)

1 Timothy 4:8 NIV “For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.”   *Transcription Below*   Brian Smith, author of The Christian Athlete: Glorifying God in Sports, is a staff member with Athletes in Action and a cross-country coach at Lowell High School. A former collegiate runner at Wake Forest University, he earned a BA in Communications and Journalism before completing his MA in Theology and Sports Studies at Baylor University's Truett Theological Seminary. Brian lives in Lowell, MI with his wife and three children. You can find him on Twitter @BrianSmithAIA.   Ed Uszynski is an author, speaker, and sports minister with over three decades' experience discipling college and professional athletes. With a heart for reconciliation and justice, he also works as a racial literacy consultant and marriage conference speaker, blending Biblical wisdom with practical living in the midst of complex cultural realities. He has two theological degrees from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and a PhD in American Culture Studies from Bowling Green State University. He and his wife Amy have four children and live in Xenia, Ohio.   The Christian Athlete Website   Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka   Questions and Topics We Cover: What is one of kids' greatest game day complaints?  Is it true that young athletic success is a predictor of adult athletic success? What are a few tips for instilling a heart of gratitude in our young athlete, rather than entitlement?   Related Savvy Sauce Episode: 230 Intentional Parenting in All The Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:51) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.   Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at lemangm.com.   Brian Smith and Ed Uszynski are my guests for today.   They are co-authors of this recent amazing book entitled, A Way Game, A Christian Parents Guide to Navigating Youth Sports. And from the very beginning, I was captivated, even with one of the endorsements from Matt Martens, who's the president and CEO of Awana, and he summed it up this way, A Way Game provides a much needed perspective shift on one of the most sacred idols in our culture, youth sports. So, Brian and Ed are all for youth sports, and yet you're going to hear there's a different way to approach it than what we've been trained in culture.   And they're going to share some wonderful and very practical insights. I can't wait to share this with you. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Ed and Brian.   Ed Uszynski & Brian Smith: (1:51 - 1:54) Thanks for having us, Laura. Yeah, good to be here, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (1:54 - 2:04) So, excited about this chat. And will the two of you just start us off by sharing your family's stage of life and your involvement in sports?   Brian Smith: (2:05 - 3:29) Yeah, there could be a lot on the back end of that question. I'll start with sports, then get into family. I've been involved in sports my entire life, played every sport imaginable growing up, got cut from just about every single sport my freshman year of high school, ended up running track and cross country because it was the only sports that you could not get cut from at my high school.   And I ended up being pretty good at it by the time I was a senior, won some state championships, ended up getting a scholarship to run at Wake Forest University. So, I did that for four years right out of college. I coached a little bit collegiately.   Soon after that, I joined staff with a sports ministry called Athletes in Action that Ed and I have a combined 50 years with Athletes in Action. And really, that's been my life ever since. I've been ministering to college and pro athletes, discipling them, helping them figure out what does that actually look like to integrate faith in sport.   Even today, I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I coach high school cross country while I'm still on staff with Athletes in Action. I have a middle school Bible study that I run on Wednesday mornings.   Been married to my wife, who I actually met in high school. She was a distance runner too, and she ran at Wisconsin. So, we've been married for 20 years.   We have three kids, a high schooler, a middle schooler, and an elementary schooler who are all involved in sport at some level, some way, shape, or form.   Laura Dugger: (3:30 - 3:34) Wow, that's incredible. Thank you, Brian. And Ed, what about you?   Ed Uszynski: (3:34 - 5:04) Well, my story is very parallel to Brian's, just different sports and some different numbers. Just tack on 15 years. Yeah, I was a basketball player.   Grew up on the west side of Cleveland with a high school football coach. My dad was, but I was a basketball player. I played at high levels all the way through my 20s, got to play overseas.   I mean, this was a long time ago, but I got everything I could out of that sport. And as soon as I graduated from college, though, I started to work with that Athletes in Action ministry that Brian mentioned. So, I've been working with college and professional athletes for 34 years now.   And same, coached at different levels, have four kids. Amy and I have been married for 26 years. We have four kids, three are in college, and one's in ninth grade, who has a game this afternoon, actually.   So, we've just been going to games and have been involved in going to sports stuff for the last 20 years with our kids. And really what happened with Brian, and I is that we looked up a decade ago and realized this youth sports thing was a fast train that was moving in directions that we weren't used to ourselves, even though we've been around sports our whole life. It's like, there's something different happening now.   And then thinking about it as Christians, like, how do we do this well as Christ followers? We don't want to separate from it. We don't want to just go for the ride. How do we do this as Christian people? And that's what got us talking about it and eventually led to this book.   Laura Dugger: (5:05 - 5:23) Well, the book was easy to read and incredible. And I'd like to start there where you begin, even where you go back before going forward. So, when you're looking back, what are the factors at play that changed youth sports over time?   Ed Uszynski: (5:26 - 6:17) Well, I'll say this and then Brian, maybe you jump in and throw a couple of them out there. I mean, youth sports is a $40 billion industry today, which is wild to think about. It's four times how much money gets spent on the NFL, which is just staggering.   I can't even hardly believe that that's true, but it is. And it's really just in the last 20 years that that's happened. I mean, 50 years ago, you couldn't have had the youth sport industrial complex, as we refer to it.   You couldn't have had it. There were a bunch of things that had to happen culturally, as is true with any new movement or any paradigm shift that happens in culture. You've got to have certain things be true all at the same time that make it possible.   So, Brian, what were a couple of those? Again, I'll throw it over to you. There's six of them that we talk about in the book. And I think it's really fascinating because I'm a history guy.   Brian Smith: (6:18 - 8:40) Yeah. And we can obviously double click on any of these, Laura, that you want to, but we talk about how the college admissions process became an avenue where youth sports parents saw, man, if we can get our kids involved in some extracurriculars and kind of tag on high level athlete to their resume, it actually helps with the college admissions process. And so even the idea of college scholarships became an opportunity for youth sports parents to get their kids involved.   And then, yeah, maybe sports can actually get them into college. We talk about the economic shifts that happen, the rise of safetyism and helicopter parenting. ESPN was a massive one in 1979.   This thing called ESPN starts, and we get 24-7 coverage of sports, which they started exploring even early on. What does it look like to give coverage to something like Little League World Series and saw that it didn't really matter how young the sport was, it's going to draw a national audience. And so, we've almost been discipled by ESPN really over the last 50 years with this consistent coverage.   We talk about the rise of the sports complex. This one to me is like the most fascinating out of all of them. In 1997, Disney decided to try to get more people to come to their parks.   They built a sports complex, just a massive sports complex. The idea was, are the older kids getting sick of the Buzz Lightyear ride and the Disney princesses? So, let's build a sports complex and maybe it'll be something else that will draw this older crowd too.   And what happened was, I mean, a lot of people started coming to it, but kind of the stake in the ground game changer was when 9-11 hit. In the months and years after that, they saw a lot less people go to their parks, but population actually doubled going to the sports complex, which is wild to think that people were afraid to go to theme parks for a vacation, but they were willing to travel across state lines to play sports at the Disney complex. So other cities and municipalities took notice of that.   Today, there's over 30,000 sports complexes like Disney's, which again, this is all adding to the system of the youth sports industrial complex. Did I miss any, Ed?   Ed Uszynski: (8:41 - 10:47) Well, no, and that's good. And the reason why we even put all that on the table, again, everybody kind of intuitively knows if you're involved, you know, something's not right. But I think it's important to say this is not normal what's happening.   It's a new normal that's been manufactured by a bunch of cultural trends, by a bunch of entrepreneurs that are doing what entrepreneurs do, and they're taking advantage of the moment, and they are generating lots of money around it. So, it should be encouraging. If it's not normal, that means actually there's a counter way of going about this.   There really can be reformation. But when all this money gets involved, the two biggest consequences that come out of that is our kids start getting treated like commodities, which they are, and we could talk the whole time even just about what that means. But maybe even more importantly, or what comes out of that is that beyond their physical development, most coaches and clubs are not paying any attention to their emotional development, their psychological development, their spiritual development, all the different aspects of what it means to be human that, frankly, used to be paid quite a bit more attention to in youth leagues when I was growing up.   I'm 58 now, so I was playing in the 70s and the 80s. And it used to be expected, at least at some level, even among non-Christian people, that you would take those aspects of a kid's life seriously. And now those just aren't prioritized.   And so, what do we do about that? Again, that's kind of our whole point is, well, as Christian people, we're really supposed to be our kid's first discipler anyways. And part of that role and part of taking on that identity is that we would be asking, what is God trying to do in the wholeness of their life, the entirety of their life, even in the context of sports?   So again, I don't want to get ahead of myself here, but that's why we're trying to poke into that to say, oh, we could actually make change. We may not change the whole system. In fact, we won't. Most of us won't be expected to do that, but we can make significant change in our corner of the bleachers and what happens with our kids.   Laura Dugger: (10:48 - 11:05) That's good. And just like you said, to double-click on a few places, first of all, real quick, the 30,000 number, I remember that shocking me in the book, but I'm forgetting now, is that worldwide, the amount of sports complexes or is that just in America?   Brian Smith: (11:05 - 11:06) That's domestically in the US.   Laura Dugger: (11:07 - 11:52) Yeah. That is staggering. And then one other piece, all of this history was new to me as you brought it all together, but it was also fascinated.   This is from page 32. I'll just read your quote. The American youth sports ball began rolling when a British movement fusing spiritual development with physical activity made its way across the Atlantic Ocean at the turn of the last century.   And Ed, that's kind of what you were touching on, that they were mixing, I'm sure, spiritual, psychological discipleship, physical. Can you elaborate more on what was happening and where it originated? Because we've come very far from our origins.   Ed Uszynski: (11:53 - 13:18) Yeah. And there's been a bunch of really great books written about this topic called muscular Christianity. This idea, like you just said, Laura, of wedding physical activity through sports with our spiritual development and expecting and anticipating that somebody that was taking care of their body and that was engaging in sport activity, that was the closest thing to godliness.   That opened up the door for you to also be developing spiritually. And there was an expectation that both of those are going on at the same time. A bunch of criticism about that movement, but it was taken seriously.   The YMCA is actually a huge byproduct of the muscular Christianity movement. The Young Men's Christian Association created space for sports and for athletic activity to take place under the banner of you're also going to grow spiritually as you're doing this. So again, that was a hundred years ago.   And that's not really what AAU stands for today. The different clubs and leagues that we get involved in just don't talk that way anymore. Of course, culture just in general has shifted away from sort of a Judeo-Christian ethic guiding a North Star for us.   Even if we're not Christian people, that used to be more of a North Star. That's gone now. And so, it really is not expected in sports anymore.   Brian Smith: (13:18 - 13:55) And what we're saying is we cannot expect organizations to own that process for our kids. We can't outsource the discipleship of our kids to the youth sports industrial complex or the YMCA or the AAU. It really does start with us as Christian parents to be the primary discipler of our kids.   And there is a way to take what's happening on the field or the court or the pool and turn it into really amazing discipleship opportunities. But it means, and Ed is starting to tease this out, it means we need to change our perspective as parents when we sit in the bleachers or on the sidelines of what we're looking for and even the conversations we have with our kids on the back end.   Laura Dugger: (13:57 - 15:29) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.   If you visit their dealership today though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle.   This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.   I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business.   Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them on 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Laura Dugger: (15:30 - 15:31) And I want to continue getting into more of those practicals. Do you want to give us just a taste or an example or story of what that might look like?   Brian Smith: (15:32 - 16:54) We keep saying, we keep talking about the importance of the car ride home that it's tempting for us and not us broadly in the U.S., tempting for us, Ed and I, as people who have done this for 50 plus years and who should know better, it's tempting for us as discipled by an ESPN over analyzing everything culture and want to talk about sports to get in the car ride home with our kids and all we want to talk about is how game went, what they did right, what they did wrong, what they could fix next time.   Maybe instead of passing to Tim, they should take the shot next time because they're wide open. They just hit three in a row. So, and what our kids need from us in those moments is less coaching, less criticizing, less critiquing, and they just need us to connect with them.   The stats on kids quitting youth sports is crazy right now. Its 70 percent are quitting before the age of 13, in large part because it's not fun, and a lot of kids are attaching this idea of it not being fun to the car ride home with their parents who, let's say this too, most of us are well-intentioned parents. We're not trying to screw our kids up.   We want what's best for our kids, but the data and the research and the lived experience continues to tell us what our kids need from us is just to take a deep breath, connect with them, less coaching. Ed keeps saying less coaching, more slurpees.   Laura Dugger: (16:55 - 17:07) I like that. And that ties in. Is it called the peak-end principle that you discovered why kids are resisting that critique on the way home?   Brian Smith: (17:07 - 18:17) Yeah, absolutely. The peak-end rule in psychology is known as this: we, just as humans in general, not just kids, we largely remember things in our lives based on the peak moment of that event, but also how the event ends. And so, the peak moment in sport can be anything from something that goes really well, like they scored a goal or made a basket or something that did not go well, just like a massive event that took place that they're going to remember.   But then it's also married to how that event ends. So, if you think for kids, how does every youth sport experience end? It ends with the car ride home.   So, if they're experiencing the car ride home as I did not live up to mom and dad's standards, or there's fear getting into the car because they don't know what their parents are going to say, how are they remembering the totality of their youth sport experience? It is, I didn't, I didn't measure up. I wasn't enough.   It felt like sports was a place that I needed to perform for my parents or my coach. And I always feel a little bit short. We want to help parents see like there's a different path forward that can be more joyful for you, but hopefully more joyful for your kid as well.   Ed Uszynski: (18:17 - 21:37) Well, and, and I'll just, let me keep going with that, Brian. I thought you really articulated all that so well. I can just imagine a parent maybe thinking, was there never a time to correct?   Is there never a time to give input? And we would say, well, of course there, there is, they need far less of it from us than we think they need when it comes to their sport. And again, we can talk about that.   They need far less of that from us. They need us to be their parents, not to be their coaches. Even if we are their coach, they need us to be more their parents.   But there is a time to do it. We're just saying the car ride home is the worst time to do it. And that's usually the time that most of us, you know, we've got two hours of stuff to download with them.   And that's just, it's not a good time. But the other thing that Brian and I keep talking about is how about, what if we had some different metrics that we were even trying to measure? So, most of the time our metrics have to do with their performance.   Like what, what are we grading them on? Again, depending on what the sport is, there's these different things that we're looking for to say, how you did today is based on whether you did this or you didn't do that and whatnot. And we're saying as parents, and again, starting with us, we needed some other metrics that were actually more concerned about what was going on in their soul.   So again, I'm sure we'll talk more about this, but the virtues, how did love show up in the way they competed today? Where that usually is tied to them noticing somebody else. Do I, am I even asking them any questions about that?   Are they experiencing peace in the midst of all this chaos and anxiety that shows up at every game? How do we teach them to experience peace? How do they become other-centered instead of just self-centered all the time in a culture, a sport culture that's teaching them to always be the center of attention and try to be?   So, we just have needed to exchange some of what we had on that performance list, like tamper that down a little bit and maybe expand the list of categories that we're looking for that actually will matter when they're 25. And we keep saying this, our goal is that they'd come home for Thanksgiving when they're 25. And so, we need to stay relationally connected to them and how we act on the car ride home day after day after day after day, year after year is doing something to our relationship.   But we also are recognizing that it's really not going to matter whether Trey finishes with his left hand at the game today when he's 25, it's not going to matter. It's not going to matter probably a year from now, but how he goes through the handshake line after the game and the way he addresses other people, and whether or not he's learning to submit to authority, whether or not he's learning to embrace other people's humanity. Yes, even in the context of sports, that's really going to matter when he's 25.   It's going to matter when he's married. Those are the things that will matter. And we say that as people who are older and have been involved in ministry and have worked with college athletes and see what happens in their lives even after they're finished, and they have no idea who they are anymore.   And this thing that's dominated their life has not actually prepared them well to do life. And that's a problem that we say, let's start changing that when they're six and not hope they're figuring it out when they're 22.   Laura Dugger: (21:38 - 22:11) I love that because that's such a theme throughout those virtues that you talked about, but discipleship and sports are a tool or a way that we can disciple our kids. I also love that you give various questions throughout the book and even quick phrases. So to close that conversation on the car ride home, if we say, okay, that's what I've been coaching the whole way home, what is a question we could ask our child afterwards and a statement we could say and leave it at that and do it a better way?   Brian Smith: (22:12 - 23:56) The question I have consistently asked my kids after learning that I've been doing this the wrong way for a long time, I tweet my question to they get in the car and I say, is there anything that happened today from the game that you want to talk about? And it's frustrating to me because 99% of the time they say, no, can we listen to the radio? And we listen to the radio, or they play a on my phone, but I'm respecting their desire that they're done with what just happened and they're ready to move on to the next thing, even though I really want to talk about what just happened.   And then the statement that I want to make sure that I'm consistently saying that they're hearing is I love you and I'm proud of you. So, game didn't go well. Yeah, you did play well today.   That's okay. Hey, I love you and I'm proud of you. Game went well today.   Awesome. Great job. Hey, I love you and I'm proud of you.   So I want that to be the consistent theme that they're hearing for me, which is hopefully going to help them better understand the gospel later in life, that as they get older and older, hopefully they'll begin to realize it seemed like the way that my mom and dad interacted with me when I was performing in sport, but their love was not attached to my performance. That seems really similar to what I'm learning more and more that Jesus does for me, that I'm trying to do all these things that are good. But from what I'm understanding about the gospel, it seems like Jesus loves me in spite of what I do.   He loves me just because He's connected to me, that God loves me because I'm a son or daughter, not because I'm performing as a son or a daughter. So, in a very real way, I really am hoping that I'm giving a good teaser for my kids now for when they fully experience the gospel as they go through the life.   Ed Uszynski: (23:56 - 24:47) Another really good connecting question. I love how you said all that, Brian, is if they don't want to talk about the game, is it okay, did you have fun today? And they can only go in one of two directions.   No. Well, tell me about that. Why not?   And it opens up the door to talk about, well, because I didn't get to play or because something bad happened. And again, tell me more about that. Tell me more about that.   Or they say, yes, great. What happened that was fun? And it creates a very different conversation in the car.   And it opens up, again, relational possibilities that go way beyond, why do you keep passing it when you should be shooting it? Wow. And just all the different ways that that comes out of us, depending on sport, depending on their age.   But those are great questions. Go ahead, Brian.   Brian Smith: (24:47 - 25:41) I just asked my son this morning. He's a freshman. His wrestling season is almost done.   And I just asked, like, what has been most fun for you in wrestling this year? And his first thing was, I feel like I'm learning a lot. And that's really fun for me, which he's on a really good team.   He's had a lot of success. He's made a lot of good friends. But even that gave me a window into his characters.   My son enjoys and I knew this is true about him. But my son enjoys learning, which means he enjoys the process of getting better and better and better, which can happen in school, it can happen doing stuff in the yard, it can it can also happen in sport. But for me to remember moving forward, yeah, he he's probably going to have a different metric for what's fun in sport than I often do for him.   Yeah, like I wanted to learn. I want him to win though, too. He's happy with learning right now.   So, I need to be happy with that for him.   Ed Uszynski: (25:41 - 26:34) If I can say this, too, again, I don't want to be vulnerable on your behalf. But then knowing this, he's lost a lot this year to really good kids. Yeah.   And so much of the learning has been in the context of losing. So, you as a dad, actually, you could be crushing him because of those losses and what he needs to do to fix that and what he needs to do so that that doesn't happen again. And it's like he's already committed to learning.   How do you just how do you celebrate the loss? Like he took the risk to try something new in this movie. He tried to survive an extra period.   That's a process when and it's we just need to get better at that. Like you genuinely can celebrate that. That's not just a that's not like a participation trophy.   It's acknowledging now, do you're taking you're taking the right steps that are actually making you a winner, even if you don't have more points at the end of the game right now.   Laura Dugger: (26:34 - 26:54) Yeah. Yeah. And that long term win that you're talking about, even with character and you've talked about fun and asking them about fun.   Is it true that that's the main reason kids are dropping out of sports at such a rapid rate before age 13 is that it's just not fun anymore?   Ed Uszynski: (26:55 - 28:58) Yeah. Yeah. And why is it not fun?   And again, this is where Brian and I are always getting in each other's business. And we know that this conversation gets in all of our business as adults. But why is it not fun?   It's not fun because of the coaches and it's not fun because of the parents. We are creating stress. We are creating again collectively because we're all in different places on the on the spectrum on this in terms of what we're actually doing when we show up at games.   But if you even just go to any soccer game and you be quiet and just listen to what's happening and everybody's shouting and screaming things and there's contradictory messages being sent and there's angst at every turn and there's an incredible celebration because this eight year old was able to get the ball to go across the line for another goal. And what that's doing inside the kids is it is creating a not fun atmosphere. Let's just say it like that.   That's a not fun atmosphere when you're eight, when you're 10, when you're trying to figure out how to make your body work. You're trying to learn the game that you're unfamiliar with and you're trying to do what this coach is telling you to do. And you're also trying to do what all the parents are telling you what to do.   And if it's a team sport, you're trying to interact and play with other kids who are all in that same state of disarray, which is very stressful and frustrating. And we're just adding to it. So instead of removing it, instead of playing a role that says, we're going to keep diffusing that stress.   And again, I'll speak for myself. Too often, I have been the one that's actually adding to it. And so, kids are just like, why would I do this?   Why would I want to get in that car again with you? It's not fun. This is a game.   And so, there's a million other things that I can do with my time where I don't have everybody yelling at me and I don't have to listen to you correct me for two hours.   Laura Dugger: (29:00 - 29:21) Well, and one other thing that surprised me, maybe why kids are dropping out, you share on page 47, a quote that research reveals a strange correlation. The more we spend, the less our kids actually enjoy their sport. So, did you have any more insight into that?   Brian Smith: (29:21 - 30:50) Yeah, this was a real study that was done at Utah State. Researchers found that the more money parents are spending, again, let's say well-intentioned parents, the more we're spending in sports, the less our kids are enjoying. And the more they have dug into it, they're finding, and intuitively it makes sense.   If you buy your kid a $600 baseball bat, what's the expectation that they're supposed to do with this really expensive bat? When they swing, they better hit the ball, and they better get on base. If we're going to buy you this expensive of a bat, you can't just have process goals with it.   You better swing and hit it. And that's causing stress for kids. If you travel across state lines and you go to Disney to play at their sports complex, you're not there for vacation.   You're there to perform. So even if parents are saying we're trying to have fun, kids know when you're traveling and you're getting all this good equipment and you're on the elite team and you're receiving the best of the best stuff, they know it comes with some sort of an expectation. College athletes can barely handle that type of pressure and expectations, but we've placed this professional on youth sports from fifth five-year-olds to 15-year-olds, and it's just crushing them.   It's crushing them. Again, college athletes and professional athletes can barely handle it. They need mental health coaches for sports, but we're expecting that our five-year-olds can handle it, and they can't.   Ed Uszynski: (30:51 - 31:19) And they may not even be able to articulate it. So that's the other thing. They may not be able to identify what's actually going on inside and put it into words.   So again, that's why we're trying to sound the alarm for ourselves and for others who are listening, because we can do it different. Again, just to even keep spinning it back in an encouraging direction, we can do this different. We can change this this week in our corner of the bleachers.   We can start over again.   Laura Dugger: (31:21 - 31:48) Absolutely and make a difference. And before we talk about even more of the pros with sports, I think it's also necessary to reflect and maybe even grieve a few things. So, what would you say are some things families are missing out on when they choose youth sports to overfill their calendar, that that's all that they make time for?   What do you think they're missing out on?   Brian Smith: (31:51 - 33:16) Yeah, I think a couple that come to mind are family dinners are a big one. That's big for us in the Smith house, is just having the ability after a long day to sit at the dinner table together, to eat food together, and to process the day and be with one another. But when my kids' practice goes late, it means we're either eating almost towards bedtime or we're eating in different shifts.   And so that's something that we grieve. I think for me, when my schedule is full, I'm tempted to adopt the mindset that what's happening on the wrestling mat or on the track matters more than it actually does. And it robs me of the ability to just take a deep breath and smile and enjoy watching my kids play sports.   That without an intervention or a pregame devotional in the car for myself, I risk sitting in the stands or being on the sidelines, being stressed out and putting pressure on myself and pressure on my kids and gossiping about why the coach didn't put this kid into the people next to me, instead of just enjoying the gift that is sports and watching my kid try and succeed and try and fail. That is a gift available to me as a dad to watch my kid do that. But the busyness often robs me of that perspective.   Ed Uszynski: (33:17 - 36:06) Well, and the busyness robs, again, if you're married, that busyness eventually wears away at your relationship. And it's not just sports. I mean, busyness, we can fill our schedule, overfill our schedules with any number of things.   We can overfill our schedules with church stuff to a point where it becomes detrimental to our relationship. If we don't set boundaries so that we're making sure we're doing what we need to do to be face-to-face and to be going to areas beneath the surface with each other in our relationship and being able to do that with our kids as well, eventually there's negative consequences to that. It may not happen right away, but I've definitely experienced that.   We've experienced that in our home where it's easy to maybe chase one kid around for a while, but what happens when you add three into the mix and you haven't really done a time budget or paid attention to the fact that when we sign up for all these things, you get a month into it and you realize, oh, we have to be in different places at the same time. So, we're not even watching stuff together anymore. We're just running.   I can endure anything for a season, but what youth sports wants now in every sport from the youngest ages is that it becomes a year-round commitment. So, you're not even signing up to play a season anymore. You're signing up for a year in most cases because after the games, then they're going to have training.   They're going to have this other thing going on. And so again, can we say, well, we'll play the actual season, but then we're not going to do the additional training over these next three months. Again, we want to give parents' permission that you can say no to that.   Well, we paid for it. Well, it's okay. If you want your kid to be on that team and you like this club or whatever, then you pay the money and you just say, we're going to sit those three months out and we're going to use those three months actually to have people over our house for dinner.   Again, whatever's on the list, Laura, that you said about being more holistic and not letting sport operate like an idol in our life where it's taken on, it's washed out everything else in our life. We can get back in control of that by just saying no a little bit. You can go to church on Sunday.   Even if there's tournament games going on on Sunday, you can go to the coach early and say, hey, we just, in our family, we just don't want to be available before 12. Are you okay with that? And most of the time coaches will be.   The kid might have to sit extra maybe for not being, whatever. Okay. That's not going to be the end of the world that they had to sit out an extra game or had to sit out a half because they weren't available on Sunday morning.   It might actually make a huge difference that they weren't at church for two and a half years in the most formative time of their life.   Laura Dugger: (36:07 - 37:36) And a lot of times the way of wisdom includes reflection, getting alone with the Lord and asking, have we overstuffed our schedule this conversation today? Let's talk specifically with youth sports. Is that trumping everything else?   Because what if we're putting it in a place it was never intended to be as an idol where we sacrifice hospitality or discipleship or community or even just a more biblical way of life? I think we have to bring wisdom into the conversation for what you've mentioned. Whether it's worth it, if they're even enjoying it, how much we're spending on it, and do we have the budget to allocate our finances that way and evaluating the time just to see and make sure that it's rightly ordered.   Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights? Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy!   But if we flip that to if youth sports are rightly ordered, then what are some things that we can celebrate or reasons that you would want families to give this a try?   Brian Smith: (37:37 - 40:09) The massive positive that we keep coming back to is we have a front row seat to see our kids go through every possible emotion in sport, the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And then if we have the right perspective, we are armed with awesome opportunities and awesome information that we're seeing. We get to see what our kids are really good at.   We get to see their character gaps. And then we get to be the ones who, again, who are their primary response, primary disciplers. It really goes back to like, are we trusting youth sports for too little in our kids' lives?   Like many of us are trusting that our investment is going to get them a spot on a team, or maybe they get an opportunity in high school, maybe in college. And what we're saying is, yeah, that maybe. And that's not a bad end goal.   But if that's everything that you're investing into youth sports, it's not enough. Like what you have available to you every single day is to ask your kid if they showed somebody else's dignity on the field. You don't know if your kid's going to hit a home run today.   That may not be available to them their entire life. What's available to them every single day is to ask a question to their teammate, to see somebody and show dignity to them. And that's really, it's like, it's almost the opportunity of a lifetime for us as parents who, when our kids get home from school, we really don't know what happened most of the day.   We asked them how it went and we get the one-word answer. In sports, we don't have to guess. We get to see everything that happens.   And again, if we are actually trusting youth sports for discipleship investment, that's a good ROI. That's a good return on our investment. But we need a consistent intervention almost daily to say, no, this is why they're in sports.   Yes, I want to see them get better. I want to see them have fun, but Holy Spirit, would you help me see things today that I normally don't see? Holy Spirit, would you put them in circumstances and relationships today and in the season that's going to help them look more and more like Jesus by the time the season's done?   Holy Spirit, would you convict me in the moment when I am being a little too mouthy and saying things that I shouldn't? Would you help me to repent? And God, in those moments where I'm actually doing wrong on behalf of my kid, would you help me to humble myself and apologize to them?   And God, would you repair our relationship that way? So again, all of these options are available just because our kid's shooting a ball or they're on the field with somebody else tackling other people. We're trusting youth sports for too little.   Ed Uszynski: (40:10 - 41:10) That's all big boy and big girl stuff. It just is. I don't normally naturally do any of that.   I have to be coached into that. I have to be discipled myself. I have to work through my own issues, my own baggage, my own fears about the future, my own idolatrous holding onto this imagined future that I have for my kid, irrespective of what God may or may not want.   I've got my own resentment. I've got my own regrets from the past. I wish things had gone differently for me, so I'm going to make sure they go different for you when it comes to sports.   And it's hard to look in the mirror and admit that I have anger issues. I mean, youth sports create a great opportunity for me to get up all my pent-up frustration from the day. We've given ourselves permission to do that, in most cases, to just yell and yell at refs and gripe about coaches and yell at kids.   Brian Smith: (41:10 - 41:31) Because that's what we do at the TV, right? When our favorite team is playing, we've conditioned ourselves to say, awful call, that was terrible. Then we get on social media and we complain about it.   We are discipling ourselves to this is how it's normative to respond within the context of sports. Then we carry all that baggage to our six-year-old soccer game.   Laura Dugger: (41:33 - 42:02) Well, I love how you keep pointing it back toward character and discipleship. You clearly state throughout the book, sports don't develop character, people do. But could you maybe elaborate on that a little bit more and share more now that we've listed pros and cons, you still list a completely different way that we can meaningfully participate while also pushing back?   Brian Smith: (42:04 - 43:49) I'll start with the first part, and then you can answer the second. We use the handshake line as a great example of why character needs to be taught to our kids. If you just watch a normal handshake line left without coaching, the kids are going through it, especially the ones who lose with their head down, they have limp hands, there's no eye contact, and they're mumbling good game, good game.   Sometimes they don't even say it, they'll say GG stands for good game. They don't just learn character by going through the handshake line. If anything, that's going through it like that without any sort of intervention or coaching, that's malforming their character.   That's teaching them when things don't go well, that it's okay for them not to be a big boy or a big girl and look somebody in the eye and congratulate them. What needs to happen? An adult needs to step in and say, hey, as we go through the handshake line, whether you win or lose, here's how we do it with class.   We shake somebody's hand, we look them in the eye, and we say good game. Even if in those moments we don't actually mean it, we still show them dignity and honor. And then when we're done going through the handshake line, guess what we're going to do?   We're going to run down the refs who are trying to get in their car and get out of here, and we're going to give them a high five and say, thank you so much for reffing today. That stuff needs to be taught. Our kids don't just come out of the womb knowing how to do that.   We have to teach them how to do it. Sometimes good coaches will do that, but the more and more we get sucked up into the sports industrial complex, we're getting well-intentioned coaches, but we're getting coaches who care more about the big W, the win, than the character formation stuff that happens.   Ed Uszynski: (43:49 - 45:27) They need to keep hearing it over and over again. I have a ninth grade Bible study in my house the other day with athletes and a whole bunch of my son's basketball team. Exactly what Brian just said, I actually was like, wow, I've got them here.   There was a big blow up at a game the other day, and we wound up talking about it. I said, I'm going to take this opportunity actually to say what Brian just said. When you go through a handshake line, this is how you go through it.   I watched what happened in the game a couple days later. Basically, they did the exact opposite of what I told them to do, and they lost. It was just what Brian said.   They went through limp handed. They didn't look anybody in the face, and they weren't even saying anything. I just chuckled to myself, and you know how this is as a parent.   They may or may not do it. Of course, those aren't my kids. I have more stewardship over my child, who actually, he is doing what I've asked him to do because I've re-emphasized it across time now.   It's not a failure because they didn't do what I said. Again, the pouty side of me wants to be like, forget it. I'm just not even going to try anymore.   It's like, no, they're kids. That was the first time they've heard that. They're going to do what their patterns have, the muscle memory that's been created by their patterns, just like we do as adults.   The next time I have a chance to bring that up again, I'm not going to shame them. I'm just going to go over it again with them. Here's how we do it.   It's super hard to do this, guys, when you just want to be violent with people or you want to cry. You got to pull yourself together. That's what big men do.   That's what big women do in life. They pull themselves together in those moments and do the right thing.   Brian Smith: (45:28 - 46:01) You don't know whether the fifth time you say it is going to stick or the 50th time. Your responsibility as the Christ-following parent is to do it the sixth time and the seventh time and the seventh time and trust that God is going to take those moments and do what he does. We're ultimately not responsible for our kids' behavior.   We're responsible for pointing them in the right direction, and then hopefully, yeah, the Holy Spirit steps in and transforms and changes and convicts in those moments, but it might take some time.   Ed Uszynski: (46:02 - 47:47) Tom Bilyeu So that's how you push back, Laura. You were asking that. How do we push back without being just completely involved in it or going for the same ride that everybody else is going for?   There's just little moments like that scattered throughout. Literally, every day that my kids are involved in youth sports, the car ride over, what happens on the way home, how we talk about it, what happens during the game and what we wind up talking about out of that, the side conversations that happen that just get brought up apart from games of how we interact with people and so-and-so looks like they're struggling. What do you know about that?   That's how we push back, that in our corner of the bleachers, oh, how we interact with other parents. We haven't even talked about that yet, that I can take an interest in more than just my own kid in the bleachers and spend way more energy actually in cheering for other kids and just trying to give them confidence and spend way less time trying to direct that at my own child who knows that I'm there. In fact, my side kid has said he doesn't want to hear my voice during the game.   It distracts him. He's like, I'd much rather that you cheer for other people. It's like, okay.   Having questions ready for other parents during timeouts and as you sit there for hours together, what do you talk about? Well, I could be the one that actually initiates substantive conversations over time with them and asks them about what's going on in different parts of their life. And in having done that, people want to talk.   They want a safe place actually to share what's going on in their So let me be the sports minister. Let me take on that identity and actually care about other people.   Laura Dugger: (47:49 - 49:47) I love that. Even that practical idea of just coming to each game, maybe with a different question, ready to open up those conversations. And I'll share a quick story as well.   Our two oldest daughters recently just gave cheerleading a try at a local Christian school that allows homeschool kids to participate. And this is an overt way that somebody chooses the different way. So, it's the coach of the basketball team.   His name is Cole. And at the end of every game, we saw him consistently throughout this season when it was a home game, whether their team won or lost, he would ask them, okay, shut off the scoreboard. It's all blank.   He gathers both teams. As soon as the game is over teams, cheerleaders, the stands stay filled with all the parents. And he says, this is not our identity.   The world and Satan, our enemy, who's very real. He wants us to put our identity here, but it's not here. You made us better tonight by the way that you played and you were able to shine Jesus.   And we're going to go a step further and we're going to do what we call attaways. So, he's like, all right, boys, you open it up. And his team is trained.   They say to the other team, Hey, number 23, what's your name? I loved how you pushed me so much harder tonight and says, my name's Ben. And so, their Attaway is, Hey, Ben.   And everybody goes, Hey, Ben. Yeah, Ben. Yeah, Ben Attaway.   And everybody just erupts in clapping. And the other team is always blown away and they are just grinning, whether they just lost. So, the boys go through that for a while and then they open it up to the other team and they start sharing Attaways.   And then they open it up to the crowd and the parents are able to say, I see the way you modeled Jesus by being selfless with the ball or whatever it is. So, Cole said that his college coach did that many years ago and he's passed that on. And I love that's one way to redeem the game.   Ed Uszynski: (49:47 - 51:39) Wow. Beautiful. Beautiful.   Yeah. That's amazing. And, you know, I, so Brian and I talk about this too.   And I coached at a Christian school. So, we, we think that it's really important if you're going to play sports and you're going to be a Christian coach that you actually take the game seriously. And that we actually are here to compete and we are here to try to win.   There's nothing wrong with that. And we're going to pursue excellence when we show up with our bodies, and we train for this sport and we're going to try to win. Cause I think sometimes we end up kind of going all or nothing, especially within our Christian circles.   We're uncomfortable with that. And it's like, yes, do that. And on the backside of that to do what that coach did is amazing.   It's that, that is, that is exactly what we're saying. We're also going to try to form our souls in the midst of this. We're going to try to win on the scoreboard.   Okay. The game's over, we lost, we won, whatever. There's more going on here than just that. And can we access that together? And again, that's so rare. Probably everybody listening has never even heard of anything like what you just said.   It would be amazing if a bunch of people did, but that's what we're saying. Let's do more of that. Let's find ways to have more of those conversations in our sphere of influence.   Maybe we're not the coach, but we can do that in our car. We can do that when we're at dinners with the other, with other players and other team, you know, we, we can do that. We can take that kind of initiative.   If we have those categories in our mind, instead of just being frustrated that my kid didn't get to play as much tonight. And I'm that bugs me. It's like, okay, it can bug you.   And now I gotta, I gotta be a big boy and get more out of this than just being frustrated that he or she didn't get to play as much. It's hard.   Laura Dugger: (51:40 - 52:11) Absolutely. Well, and like you guys are doing having Bible studies outside of the, the team that you can instill values in that way and share scripture that they're memorizing to go out there with excellence for the Lord. So, I love all of that.   And I've got just a few quick questions, just kind of for perspective. I want to draw out something from the book. Is it true that young athletic success predicts adult athletic success?   Brian Smith: (52:13 - 53:51) It is not true. This is, this is not a hot take. This is researched back more and more research they're doing on this.   And they're finding that there's not a direct correlation between a young elite athlete and them continuing that up into the right trajectory and being an elite athlete later in life in large part, because when puberty hits, like everything is a game changer. So, this is, I found this fascinating and this is probably going to be new to you too. This just came out today.   At the time we're doing this podcast, the winter Olympics is going on in Norway. It's just like, they're killing it. Nor Norway's youth sports system.   This is wild. They give participation trophies for all the kids. They don't keep score until 13 years old.   They don't do any national travel competitions, no posting youth sports results online. So, there's no online presence of youth sport results. And their country motto is joy of sport for all.   And they're, they're killing it right now in the Olympics. So, like, that's not to say, like you got to follow their model and then you're going to win all these gold medals, but it is, there is something to just let the kids have fun. And the longer they play sport, because it's fun, the better opportunity you're actually going to have to see them blossom and develop some of these God-given gifts that they might have.   Don't expect it to come out before they're 13. Even if it does, there's no guarantee that it's going to continue on until they're 23. Just let them have fun.   Ed Uszynski: (53:52 - 55:55) Brian, we, Brian and I got to speak at a church the other day about this topic. And there was a couple that came up afterwards and they asked the question of what, so when do you think we should let our kids play organized sports or structured sports? And so again, Brian and I are careful.   Like I, there's no, there's no one size fits all answer to that. We would suggest as late as possible, wait as long as possible. Because once you start doing structured sport where there's a coach and you have to be at practices and the games are structured and there's reps, it just cuts away all the possibility they have to just play and just to go up to the YMCA and just play for three hours at whatever it is that they like to do.   And they said, well, it's encouraging to hear that they said, because we, we actually are way more into just developing their bodies physically. And so, we do dance with them, and we do rock climbing and they were kind of outdoorsy people, and they just started listing off all these things they do because we want them to become strong in their bodies, and learn to love activity like that. And I just thought, again, that's, that probably would cause a lot of people to freak out to hear that, that they have eight, nine-year-olds that aren't on teams yet.   They're just, they're training their bodies to appreciate physicality and to become coordinated and to, you know, to get better at movement. And it's like, what sport is that not going to be super helpful in five years from now, even when they're 12, 13 years old. And now they really do want to play one sport, and they do want to be on a team.   They're going to be way ahead of the kids actually that just sat on benches or stood in the outfield, you know, day after day after day at practices. Again, that's maybe hard to hear, but maybe there's some adjustments that need to be made again; to give ourselves permission to say, we don't have to get on that train right now. You don't have to, your kid's not going to be behind.   They actually could be ahead. If you do the kinds of things we just talked about.   Laura Dugger: (55:56 - 56:11) I love that. And even that example with what it looks like played out with Norway and also, do you have any other quick tips just for instilling and cultivating a heart of gratitude and youth sports rather than entitlement?   Brian Smith: (56:13 - 57:33) I'm a high school cross country and track coach, and I have kids on my team who want to get faster at running, but instead of running, they want to lift weights and they want to do plier metrics. So, there's, yes, there's a spot for that. But the way you get better at running is to run.   You got to run more miles and more miles. And I think gratitude is similar. That gratitude, part of it is a, it's a feeling, but it's also a muscle that we can flex even if we don't feel it.   And so, I would encourage parents who are trying to instill gratitude into their kids to give them practical things like, hey, after practice, just go shake your coach's hand or give them a fist bump and tell them, thanks for practice today, coach. That that's a disciplined way to practice gratitude that will hopefully build the muscle where they're, they're using it later in life. After a game, I taught my kids this when they were young and they still do it today.   Go shake a ref's hand. I mentioned this earlier, just a really, really practical way to show thankfulness and gratitude to somebody who really doesn't get a whole lot of gratitude pointed at them during a game or after a game. If anything, they have people chasing them through the parking lot for other reasons.   I want my kids to be chasing them down to give them a fist bump or a high five. And so, gratitude is something that we can just practice practically. And hopefully the discipline practice will lead to a delight and actually doing it.   Ed Uszynski: (57:34 - 59:39) And how do we cultivate an inner posture? Cause I tend to be a cup half empty type person. I'm a, I'm a whiner by nature and a continuous improvement.   There's always something wrong. And I'm, it's easy for me to find those things just as a person. I'm not even saying that as a dad or a coach or anything.   And it's been super helpful to me in the last decade, even to just like, I can choose to shift that. There, there is, there's a list of things that are broke, but there is always a list of things that are good. There's always something good here to be found.   And even as I've tried to like, again, tip the scales more in that direction, I can keep pushing that out of my kids. So, so this, you know, my ninth-grade son tends to just like, he doesn't like a whole bunch of what's going on in basketball right now. So, I keep asking him if he's having fun.   He says, no, like, why not? Or like, who did, why did you not have fun today? So, it's just the same thing every day.   I'm like, okay, who did you enjoy even being with today? Nobody. And I'm like, dude, I don't believe that actually.   I just, I don't believe that. There was somebody that you had some moment with today that you enjoyed, or you wouldn't want to keep going back up there because, and he does. So, give me a name.   Okay. Lenny. What happened with Lenny that was fun? And I make him name it. Like I'm, I'm, I'm trying to coach him through it. And sure enough, he does have some sentences of what was fun today.   And it's like, good, let's, let's at least hold onto that in the midst of all the other stuff that's not right. Let's choose to see the thing that was good and that you enjoyed and that we could be thankful for. Not everybody got to have that today.   Again, I have to have my, I have to be the parent. I have to be the discipler. I have to be in, you know, in charge of my own soul that wants to be negative all the time and say, nope, we're going to, we're going to choose gratitude today because the Bible tells us to do that.   There's something about that posture that opens the door for the gospel to be expressed through us. So, let's practice.   Laura Dugger: (59:40 - 59:50) Well said, and there's so much we could continue learning from both of you. Where can we go after this chat to learn more from each one of you?   Brian Smith: (59:52 - 1:00:14) Yeah, we do a lot of our writing online at thechristianathlete.com. And so, if you go there, you can see articles that are specifically written for parents, for coaches, for athletes, all around this idea of what does it look like to integrate faith and sport together? So, the

*Disclaimer* This episode contains adult content and is not recommended for young listeners.   284. DON'T MISS THIS! Controversial Sex Questions, Answered with Dr. Juli Slattery   1 Samuel 24:19b NIV “May the Lord reward you well for the way you treated me today.”   *Transcription Below*   Bio: Instagram Facebook Authentic Intimacy Website Java with Juli Podcast   Thank you to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company   Questions and Topics We Cover: As Christ followers, should we use a friend's preferred names and pronouns? If one part of Scripture talks about turning the other cheek, is that the same as saying God expects you to stay in an abusive marriage? Is it reasonable to assume that once they have a smartphone, 100% of kids will be exposed to pornography?   Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce, Including Past Episodes with Dr. Juli Slattery: Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen  Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau  Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau Healthy Sexuality, Emotional Intelligence, and Parenting Children with Autism with Counselor, Lauren Dack Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel Bridging the Gap Between Military and Civilian Families with Licensed Professional Counselor, Cuthor, Podcaster, and 2015 Military Spouse of the Year, Corie Weathers Enjoying a God-Honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse with Certified Sex Therapist and Ordained Minister, Dr. Michael Sytsma Enjoying Parenting and Managing Conversations About Sex with Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two) Personal Development and Sexual Wholeness with Dr. Sibylle Georgianna  Our Brain's Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1 Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2 Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas Sex Series: God's Design and Warnings for Sex: An Interview with Mike Novotny Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler Sex Series Orgasmic Potential, Pleasure, and Friendship: An Interview with Bonny Burns  Sex Series: Sex Series: Healthy Self, Healthy Sex: An Interview with Gaye Christmus Sex Series: Higher Sexual Desire Wife: An Interview with J Parker Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo 215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen 216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen 217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler 218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma 222 Pornography: Protecting Children and Personal Healing, Victory, and Recovery in Christ with Sam Black Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen 224 Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn 252 Maximizing Sexual Connections as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Cliff & Joyce Penner 260 Sex After Cancer with Dr. Kris Christiansen 277 Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:11 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 – 2:21) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.   Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.   My returning guest for today is Dr. Juli Slattery.   She has authored another book entitled Surrendered Sexuality: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything, and we're going to cover a few themes from this book, but I think what you're going to find most helpful are her candid responses to some really tricky questions related to dating and pornography, technology, thought life, shows that we watch as believers, divorce, and just intimacy in general as married couples.   So, I think this is an episode that you're going to want to learn from yourself, but you'll also want to share with others because Dr. Juli has offered us such a gift as she directs us back to the heart issues and wisely guides us into sexual integrity in our own lives.   Here's our chat.   Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Juli.   Dr. Juli Slattery: (2:21 – 2:21) Thanks so much for having me back. It's always a joy.   Laura Dugger: (2:21 – 2:22) Well, I love that you've been a repeat guest many times. So, we get to just dive right in today because I'm going to link all of your previous episodes in the show notes. But to dive in, I'm just curious, as believers, where does your heart break as you see us compromising on God's design for sex?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (2:22 – 3:31) Hmm. That's such a good question. You know, I think my heart breaks the most in that when we compromise God's design for sexuality, or even when we don't understand it or understand His goodness, it means that there is a breach in our relationship with God.   And so, I am so passionate about what I do, not necessarily because I love talking about sexuality, but because for a lot of people, sexuality represents a wall between them and God, like an issue they can't resolve, or a place of shame that they just can't quite shake free from, or battle with sin that they feel like they're enslaved to. And so, those things mean that there's a limit to how much they invite God into their lives.   And so, for me, that's where my heart breaks the most is, you know, ultimately, we were created for the greatest fellowship with God and anything that gets in the way of that is something that God cares about and something that I care about.   Laura Dugger: (3:32 – 4:03) You say that well, and you've written many books, but in this most recent one, you plainly state one issue when you write, “You will not be able to obey God with your sexual thoughts, while binging shows and music that continually display the exact opposite.”   And I love how practical that is. So, Juli, why do you think this has become so normalized? And I would say, especially in Christian marriages.   Dr. Juli Slattery: (4:05 – 5:58) Yeah, you know, I think a lot of it is that the church has been historically really quiet about sexuality, you know, like we might talk about save sex for marriage, and don't cheat on your husband and that sort of thing. But the gray areas about how we think about our sexuality and kind of what we have the liberty and freedom to engage in, there's kind of silence, or maybe there's legalism.   And I think in that space, what ends up happening is the culture is so forthright with a message about sexuality, like woven throughout every single show that you could stream on any platform, you know, your music on Spotify, even the news you consume, the Instagram feeds, whatever, it's consistently showing you a way to understand sexuality that is contrary to God's design, and the messaging can be so subtle, or so repetitive that we don't even realize we're ingesting it.   And so, it's normal to talk about with your friends, like the latest season of The Bachelor, or, you know, the latest thing that you're streaming that if you really look at it, there's probably 100 references to sexuality that are outside of God's design. And so, we end up just having our mind conformed to this world.   And the scripture says really clearly in Romans 12, that we can't offer ourselves to God while we're still thinking like the world thinks that it requires an act of transformation of our thinking. And I don't know that there's anywhere more than we need this than in the topic of understanding our sexuality.   Laura Dugger: (6:00 – 6:59) Okay, so for I'm thinking of married couples, because I was recently at a wedding shower. And I love a friend from church. Her name is Dawn Karius. And she was giving the devotional and just sharing. You know, it's very easy to get married and fall into this trap. She was talking about what you watch specifically.   And she said, so many couples will watch something together, watch a show before bed, but be really intentional. If that is what you choose to do, then the shows that you're watching, even though you're with your spouse, is that drawing both of you closer to Christ? Because if it's pulling you further away from Christ, it's also pulling you away from one another.   And so, with all of that, and with what you've studied and written about, if a couple's hearing that and or some single person just hearing this, what would be your practical advice or encouragement for them?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (7:00 – 9:29) Yeah, some of it is, we can't live in a bubble. You know, it's, I think that there are some couples will have the conviction that, you know, we're just going to get rid of all of our devices, we're going to get rid of every streaming service. And there's nothing wrong with that decision, you might feel convicted to do that.   But for most couples, I would say, they're like, okay, we live in this world, we need to understand even the world we live in. And so, it's not like we're going to completely be cut off. But are we being discerning about what we consume?   And what are the standards that we might hit where we might just say, “You know what, we don't need to be watching this.” You know, like I can think of one show in particularly that my husband and I were watching. And it was a well-written show. It was exciting. But there was just so much profanity and just gross kind of sexual content that after two or three episodes, we're both just like, “You know what, as good as the show is, we just, this isn't, we're not watching this. Like we need to stop.”   And I think you need to have those discussions and you might have a different level of conviction than your spouse does. And that's okay, but at least have those conversations and you need to follow your conviction.   But then the other thing I would say that is equally important, if not more important, what are you consuming that helps you get God's perspective of sexuality? And what I've found is that a whole lot of Christian married couples know very little about what it looks like to build a healthy sex life in their marriage. And they're not consuming anything that helps them know how to love each other better, how to overcome differences, even how their bodies work, how to focus on one another and enjoy sex in a holy erotic way.   And so, even if you're watching and consuming very little content from the world, but you're not actively pursuing anything that gives you a biblical perspective, you're still going to end up defaulting to what the world says. And so, I think that again, it's equally as important or not, if not more important to be pursuing what's true and what's right and what's good.   Laura Dugger: (9:31 – 9:53) I love that, how you flipped it. And that discernment piece is huge because we don't want to be desensitized to then that we're consuming and we also want to feed on the good. So, I think it even leads to a broader question, again, as Christ followers, how can we recognize if our conscience is being pricked?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (9:54 – 12:05) Yeah, we can start by asking the Lord. You know, I mean, I think it's in, is it Psalm 139, where, you know, David is basically saying, “Search me, oh God, and know my thoughts, you know, show me if there's any offensive way within me.”   I think that's a beautiful prayer as an individual and as a couple, like God, we want to honor you with what we consume in media, with what we think about, would you guide us and would you show us? And then I think we all have that experience of watching something or listening to something or reading something where we're like, “Uh, I don't know, like, this is sort of a gray area. Like, I'm uncomfortable here. I probably shouldn't be watching this.” Or “Wow, that's really, that's really in your face. Like that's really graphic.”   And it's heeding the Holy Spirit when you get those prompts, instead of just pushing through and being like, “Ah, it's not that big of a deal. It's not going to affect me.” Like when you feel that sense of prompting, you respond to it and you say, “All right, I'm going to put this down. I'm going to shut this off.”   And, um, you know, the scripture says that we can become callous to those promptings of the Holy Spirit if we are in a habit of just running right through that. But we become more sensitive to the Holy Spirit when we yield and when we obey.   Um, and so, I think even just keeping track, you know, every day or every week, like where were the times regarding this or anything else that I really felt convicted by the Holy Spirit about maybe something I said about a friend, uh, or about a little white lie I told, you know, where were the times where I really felt the Holy Spirit nudging me and what did I do? Um, where do I need to confess that I didn't respond well? And where do I need to celebrate that? Yes, I listened, I obeyed, I yielded. Um, and so, I think that's a practice we get into of either ignoring that conviction or really yielding to it.   Laura Dugger: (12:06 – 12:28) Hmm. And that gets after the heart issue, which Jesus is so concerned about our heart. And that's a very softened heart approach. Yes. I hope we can have. And as it relates to sexual integrity, then what are some other ways that we need to be on guard so that we're careful not to be misled?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (12:29 – 13:37) Yeah, boy, I think there's just so much conversation. Um, again, even in Christian circles, sometimes around having a negative attitude towards sex, um, kind of accepting some forms of pornography as normal and even good, you know, husband bashing, wife bashing, you know, like complaining, kind of letting the thought feed in your mind of maybe I should have married somebody else.   Maybe that my life would be easier if I, I weren't married to this person. I wish they were this or that. So, sort of that discontent that is natural to feel in marriage. But the question is, what do you do with it? Do you give it space to grow and to nurture, or do you bring that before the Lord?   Um, so, I think those are some of the ways that we want to look at, like, how am I giving the enemy space in my life and in my marriage versus how am I inviting God to really reclaim what's broken here?   Laura Dugger: (13:38 – 14:01) Well, and then even thinking of the other side to guard ourselves from having a critical and judgmental spirit toward others or just having self-righteous pride. Can you educate us on some common reasons why some people may be predisposed to struggle with some certain sexual sins?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (14:02 – 17:20) Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so important, um, because the research really shows that some of us are more, I don't know if I'd say it that way, but we are going to be more predetermined maybe to struggle with things like pornography or same-sex attraction, or even hooking up.   And it's never like a one plus one equals two exactly. But there are what we might say indicators or risk factors that make you more vulnerable to those kinds of sexual struggles. And some of them might be unhealthy family dynamics growing up, you know, none of us had a perfect family, but let's say you grew up in a family where one of your parents was like overtly critical towards you all the time.   Maybe you went through a divorce with your parents where, um, you know, at a certain age, you just, your family fell apart and you're kind of looking for that stability and love. People who have experienced sexual trauma in childhood or the teen years are going to be more pre-dispositioned to want to understand that or act that out.   People who might struggle with anxiety. And, you know, some of it is we got to understand that sex, because it elicits dopamine in our brain and oxytocin and endorphins, which are all really feel good kind of experiences and hormones and neurotransmitters. When we had a sexual experience at a young age, our brain can learn, “Oh, this is how I deal with stress. This is how I deal with depression. This is how I deal with loneliness.”   So, a lot of times when you talk to somebody who has an ongoing struggle with a sexual temptation or sin, it's because they've learned as a pattern from maybe the time they were 10 years old or 12 years old or 15 years old, that this is how I dealt with the stress in my family. This is how I dealt with when my father died. This is how I dealt with when I was sexually abused. Like this was the way that I found to self-regulate and to self-medicate and to find comfort.   And that can be masturbation. It can be pornography or again, you know, acting out sexually. And so, for people who have that kind of story, and this might be your spouse, or this might be against somebody that you're looking at and judging to just say, “You need to stop that behavior,” is often not going to be enough. They need to do the work of really looking at what am I using sex for? What are the wounds that I'm using sex to cover up?   And how do I actually get the healing I need and find healthier and safer ways for me to cope with negative emotions? And that's why groups are really important for people who have sexual struggles. Counseling is really important. And again, that long journey of healing and freedom, not just a one-time decision that I'm going to try to never do this again.   Laura Dugger: (17:21 – 20:19) Love that word freedom, even because that hope is available. And just pointing out how you said this is not deterministic. That's not what we're saying is if you experience something, you will act out sexually. But I agree with you that it is fascinating and helpful to hear the correlation of certain things that happen, especially in childhood, and how that plays out long-term.   And I am blanking on which guest it was on The Savvy Sauce, but somebody was enlightening me. I think it was for females that if they were sexually abused, typically before a certain age, then they were more likely to struggle in marriage with wanting to completely avoid sex. But then if it was after a certain age, that it was completely opposite where they maybe used sex to medicate, or they were very aggressive and even would act out, let's say in single years, that they would sleep around with a bunch of partners if they had been wounded.   And so, I just think it just, it helps us to not be judgmental of one another. We don't know the full story.   Dr. Juli Slattery: (20:20 – 21:09) Yes. Yeah. There's always more there than we usually realize at first. And, you know, this plays out a lot in marriage because there are a lot of women who are married to guys who are addicted to pornography. And that's a deeply painful dynamic. That's really hard.   But to understand that your husband didn't want to have this struggle, often doesn't know how to get out of it, you know, gives you compassion. It doesn't mean that you look the other way, you need to get help, and you need to insist on getting help. But it does give you empathy and compassion that there's something underlying this and feeding it. It's not just, “Oh, I think I'm going to, you know, look at porn and hurt my wife again,” that there's always a deeper dynamic at work.   Laura Dugger: (21:10 – 21:50) Absolutely. And even an example from your book, I'll just read a quote where you said, “I spoke with a man who runs a sexual addiction program. He told me he had never met someone with sexual addiction, who did not also have significant sexual or psychological trauma in their past.”   And I think it goes along with what we're saying. But if we also then flip it and look at more of the positive side, how can we rightly prioritize connection and intimacy in marriage as God intended?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (21:53 – 24:24) I think first of all, we need to be convinced that this is worth it. You know, when we look at everything there is to do in life, there's so many worthy demands on our time. You know, from I want my house to look nice, and we need to make friends and we need to be an outreach to our community. And our kids are taking a lot of time and they should, and they've got all their activities and our church needs our help. Like when do you have time to do all this? And then, oh yeah, prioritize your marriage.   And I think we have to become convinced that if we're not working on our marriage, and specifically if we're not working on the sexual connection in marriage, then all those other things have the potential to fall apart. That the way I've learned it over time is that sex is never going to be a neutral issue in your marriage. It's either going to be something that is bonding you together and causing you to work on the deeper levels of intimacy, even as you talk through sexual difficulties, or it's going to be something not immediately, but over time, that becomes a wedge between you.   It might start as a wedge of resentment of my needs aren't getting met, or I feel like you're objectifying me or you're putting pressure on me. Or it might be a deeper wedge of a pornography addiction or something that's not being addressed. Or I don't trust my husband because of my trauma. And those things don't just stay dormant. The wedge becomes bigger and bigger and bigger until you get to the place where now you're not comfortable being in the same room anymore and you feel like roommates. And then now one of you is attracted to somebody else and the story plays on.   And there are very wonderful godly men and women who have gotten married with every purpose to stay together. But a wedge like this has grown over time to the point where they're now thinking about divorce or one of them has cheated on the other. And so, we have to be convinced that honoring God in our lives means prioritizing our marriage, and it means working on this intimate aspect of our marriage so that we can be a stable foundation for our families and our churches and our communities.   Laura Dugger: (24:26 – 24:39) And so, if we're getting as practical as possible, what are the best practices that you've seen in married couples who are happily married? How have you experienced that?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (24:40 – 28:04) Yeah. I'll put it in kind of like a cliche sort of way because I think sometimes that's catchy. Number one, I would say they're couples who will resist the drift, who will repair the rift, and who will adjust to the shift.   So, I can kind of break that down a little bit. But you know, the first thing is resisting the drift of you can go weeks without meaningfully connecting with your spouse. And I don't just mean sexually, but I mean like eye to eye, you know, just loving touch, just connecting to their hearts. And so, couples who know how to resist that drift, like they have regular times built into their calendar where this is where we connect every day. Like even for 10 minutes, this is where we hold each other's hands, we look at each other in the eye, we really connect with what's in your heart, how are you? And they have regular rhythms of once a week or once every other week, we're going to go out and do something fun together, just the two of us. We've worked through what sex looks like in this season. Like how many times do we want to have sex? Are we scheduling that? How are we making sure that's a priority? And so, that's the resisting the drift.   And the second one is repairing the rift. And at every marriage, there are going to be things that tear you apart. And sometimes those things might be sexual in nature, like a temptation, an emotional affair, pornography use, sometimes it's going to be something else where you have a deep disagreement that you can't resolve on your own. And you need to be courageous enough to reach out for help and say, like, if we don't get help, if we don't address this issue, like it's going to become something that tears us apart. Any couple that you meet who is happily married for like 30 years or more, they can tell you a story of when they had a rift, and the kind of help that really address that.   And then I think the third thing is adjusting to the shift. And in even the normal stages of marriage, there are shifts that happen. Like, you know, I'm in the stage right now where me and the people my age are going through biological changes with menopause and with aging. And, you know, some people are going through becoming grandparents and retirement. And there's all these shifts that are happening even naturally. There's other couples that are younger who are going through the shift of pregnancy and battling infertility. And some people are going through cancer. And there are things that happen that require you to shift your expectations. And to not just wish that it is like it used to be. But this is the marriage we have now. Here are the circumstances we have now. Here are the bodies we have now. How do we learn to love each other and embrace this season, given the changes that we're experiencing?   And so, I think that's a framework that I've seen healthy couples navigate over time that really fosters intimacy.   Laura Dugger: (28:05 – 29:29) That is incredible. I love how you put that. And I've shared with you before that my background is in Christian sex therapy. So, sex is a topic that does come up a lot and people feel comfortable sharing or asking questions. So, just in regular conversation, I want to recap two conversations that kind of show stances on both ends of the spectrum. And I'd love to hear your wisdom on how to respond to each one.   So, first, there was a Christian married woman with children, and she was teaching younger women to say yes to every single sexual advance from their husband. And she said, “If your husband has the higher drive, and he wants to have sex twice a day, then consider yourself lucky. And don't ever say no, because your body is not your own.” Yeah, it's hard to recap. So, this is not my perspective. So, sharing both ends.   So, that was one person. And then on the other end, I've heard a woman tell me, “You know, I just didn't feel like having sex for about a year and a half after we had our baby. So, I just told my husband, you're going to have to wait.”   So, loaded question, but Dr. Juli, how would you respond to each of those?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (29:29 – 32:31) Well, Laura, I feel like you probably would have just as good of response as I would to those. Yeah, I like that you're presenting those as two extremes, because they are two extremes. And I think both extremes kind of miss the heart. We want to be able to say yes to sex and intimacy. And being able to say yes means also being able to say no.   In that first situation, essentially, what is going to end up happening is that that wife is going to start feeling like my husband wants me for sex. And I don't have the capacity to enjoy it twice a day. I'm starting to feel like an object or used. And the husband is never going to learn that covenant love requires self-denial. And at every level, you know, what did, what did Paul say to husbands in Ephesians 5, like love your wife as you love your own body and be willing to lay down your, your life for your wife. And that means being sensitive to the fact that she doesn't have the same sexual appetite as you do. She doesn't have the same biology you do, that it actually can be physically painful, emotionally traumatic for a wife to have sex when she's not physically ready. Really, that couple is not working on intimacy. They're, they're kind of reinforcing a pattern that sex is about the husband getting his needs and desires met only through the wife without considering her. And that might work for short term, but that's not building intimacy in the long term. And it's not teaching either of them. And that wife needs to learn her own sexual desires and patterns and be able to communicate those to her husband. So, that's what I would say in that first one.   And the second one, essentially, you have a wife kind of having that more selfish perspective of, I only have sex when I want it and on my terms, instead of considering the husband. And, you know, how do I focus on him? How do I work on experiencing sexual desire? How do I foster that? Because it's important for my husband, it's important for our marriage. And I don't want to be selfish.   And so, I think both of those situations are kind of approaching sex where one person gets to be selfish, and the other person has to sacrifice. That's ministry, that's not intimacy. And so, we really want to be at a place where both of us, the higher desire one and the lower desire one, are learning what does it look like to really love well, to love sacrificially and to communicate the ways that I feel loved. I don't know, what would you add to that or change?   Laura Dugger: (32:31 – 33:11) That's why I asked you, you said that beautifully, better than I could have responded. And again, you're getting back to the heart of it and pointing us back to Jesus with each answer. And, you know, commonly people do struggle with having a safe place where they can ask candid questions about sex.   So, I am going to throw some more at you. And some of these are ones that you wrote about. But just to give us a little taste, even of the book, or if somebody has a burning question like this, I'd love your healthy response.   So, how do you respond when people ask, “How far is too far to go in a dating relationship?”   Dr. Juli Slattery: (33:14 – 36:32) Yeah, I think people are looking for a line, you know, like, as long as I don't cross this line, are we good? And of course, I think their traditional line would be as long as you're not having intercourse. But I think that misses the larger context of the purpose of sex. I've had to be convicted of this in my own life. And we talked very early in our conversation about how we've just sort of ingested messages from the culture. And the culture says that healthy sexuality is an expression of how I feel, right? So, so if I feel safe with you, if I feel romantically connected to you, if I feel sexually attracted to you, then it would be healthy for me to engage sexually with you. And then Christians would come and say, yes, but as long as you don't cross this line. So, that's sort of the narrative that I think a lot of us have heard in the church.   But if we look at, from a biblical perspective, God did not design sex to be an expression of how I feel. Okay, let that sink in for a minute. God did not design sex to be an expression of how I feel. He designed it to be a seal and a celebration of covenant, of the choice that a man and a woman make to covenant their lives to one another. And for them to say, just like I give you my whole life, I promise faithfulness to you. I promise that we are becoming one as a family. We have now a physical way to symbolize that in becoming one with our bodies. And so, even if I feel romantically attached to somebody I'm not married to, I don't act on that. Or even if I don't feel romantically attached to my husband, we work on our sex life because we're in covenant.   And so, when you begin to understand sex from that standpoint, you answer that question differently of how far can I go? Why are you sharing your body with another person when you haven't shared your life with them? And, you know, I think that the standard is not legalistic, but the heart of the question is a lot, that's a harder question. You know, like it says, and I think 2 Thessalonians or 1 Thessalonians, you know, Paul says, the will of God is that you do not engage in sexual immorality. Don't take advantage of a brother or sister.   And how many times in dating relationships do you look back and you're like, “Wow, I gave too much of myself to that person or I took too much of myself from that person. Like we engaged in things that now we're broken apart. Like I wish I could take back.” And so, what does it look like to honor each other? What does it look like to honor the Lord? So, I think those kinds of questions help you get to the heart of how do we steward dating relationships a lot better than looking for a line we're not supposed to cross.   Laura Dugger: (36:33 – 37:31) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you? Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world.   So, we need your help.   Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.   As Christ followers, should we use a friend's preferred names and pronouns? So, how would you respond to that?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (37:32 – 39:20) Boy, this is a hot topic. There are people who have really strong opinions on this. You're saying, do I use a friend's preferred names and pronouns?   And I think the fact that you have a friendship means that you can have a deeper conversation about the meaning of the names and pronouns. And I think that deeper conversation needs to happen. Because, you know, ultimately we don't like, we don't want to just say, “Oh yeah, whatever you want to call yourself is fine with me. Truth doesn't matter.” But on the other hand, we really want to get to the spiritual issue underneath this. And there's a, there's a big difference between somebody who doesn't know the Lord, doesn't know where you stand on any of this, and somebody that you can engage in a conversation with and seek wisdom on.   I think there, there's probably more latitude to use somebody's preferred name than pronouns. And I think in friendships, sometimes you can work that through and just say, you know, “Hey, I love you. I understand where you're coming from. I'm going to try my best to use the name that you're asking. But the pronoun is something that I'm not comfortable with. And here's why. And just like I'm, I want to understand where you are. I hope that you would have grace and understand where I am.” So, in a friendship, you're able to have those kinds of conversations. Whereas if it's a coworker or it's a stranger or a neighbor, sometimes we can't have that level of conversation. And so, I, we might choose to handle the situation a little differently.   Laura Dugger: (39:21 – 39:36) That's good. A hundred percent truth, a hundred percent love or kindness. And what if somebody asks, how much attention should we be giving these secondary issues as believers?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (39:39 – 41:03) Boy, I, I think first of all, the secondary issues come out of the primary issues. So, the primary issue, and you know, the issue I wrote Surrendered Sexuality is about is if my life belongs to the Lord, then my whole life needs to belong to Him, including how I think about cultural issues, including how I treat my neighbor.   And so, I don't see them as secondary issues. I see them as an outgrowth of the primary issue. I think when they become secondary issues are when we argue with other believers about it and it becomes the most important thing. Like I put you in a category based on, will you use preferred names and pronouns? And then I think we're missing what God calls us to.   The primary issue is that we want to honor God and we want to love each other. And so, let's keep going back to that primary issue. How do I love my neighbor well? How do I honor God's truth well? How do I pursue unity within the body of Christ well, as we're navigating some of these secondary issues? So, you know, like if we're going back to the primary issue, it means that we have to talk about the secondary issues, but we talk about them in light of what's primary.   Laura Dugger: (41:04 – 41:17) I like that. And I just have three more of these kind of tricky questions. So, another one, does pornography addiction qualify as reasons for a biblical divorce?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (41:20 – 42:50) I would say, first of all, technically, if we look at the word for sexual immorality in the scripture, which is porneia, we would say, yeah, you know, pornography does qualify for that.   But for the person who's asking this, maybe the woman who's asking this, I would say, why do you want to get out of the marriage? And what Jesus said is Moses permitted divorce because of the hardness of your heart. And I think a more important question is where's your heart and where's your husband's heart? Because I've seen people with pornography addictions who have really open hearts towards healing, and they're willing to get the help that they need. They're repentant. They're willing to do the work. They're willing to go through even a time of separation to show that they're serious about that work.   And then there are people who have very hard hearts of, “This is who I am. I might go through the motions, but I'm really not interested in change.” And so, I think the pornography addiction is less the issue than the posture of the person's heart and their willingness to work. And if your spouse is willing to work, then I think it's on us to have soft hearts too, and to be open to the work that God can do.   Laura Dugger: (42:51 – 43:34) That's good because saying you have to zoom out and see more of the story in that stance, because that's very different. Somebody who's working on it and hates the struggle and is wanting to break free versus being married to a narcissist who is abusing you and treating you in a certain way and addicted to pornography. So, you point out well that all of these questions have more to them.   Okay. So, two more, if a spouse has had an emotional affair in the past with a coworker, but they still work with this person, what is the wise thing to do and how should they handle it if their spouse is uncomfortable with them still working there?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (43:36 – 44:33) Yeah, boy, that's something that I would want to seek counseling on. You and your spouse really need to get with a counselor and talk that through. The generic advice in that situation would be to get a different job, to not have that relationship still a temptation or available.   But there are sometimes very extenuating circumstances where that's not a possibility, or at least for now, that's not a possibility. And so, I would really encourage you to meet with a third party to sort through the details of your particular situation. Because it could be that your spouse isn't willing to take that hard step of cutting off that relationship, or it could be that they're willing, but again, there's extenuating circumstances. And I would really want a wise person who is engaging with you to help you navigate that.   Laura Dugger: (44:34 – 44:44) But I love that, how you highlight that something to look for though, is that you would hope your spouse would be willing to make that right, especially if they were the offending.   Dr. Juli Slattery: (44:46 – 44:46) Okay.   Laura Dugger: (44:47 – 45:00) And then also, Juli, because scripture does talk about turning the other cheek, does that mean it's the same as saying God expects you to stay in an abusive marriage?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (45:02 – 47:41) Absolutely not. If you were in an abusive marriage, you are not doing your spouse any good. You are allowing your spouse to be in a place where they're destroying their own life and they're destroying the people that they love.   Now you say, okay, where biblically do we see this? We see that Jesus, he says in John, he says, “I laid down my life for my sheep. I lay it down willingly. No one has the authority to take it from me. I have the authority to lay it down and I have the authority to take it up again.” And we see Him living that out with religious leaders who were after Him all the time, who wanted to stone Him, who were accusing Him of things. It says over and over again that Jesus escaped from them. He just got out of there until it was time that the Father said, now is the time for you to give yourself for the world.   So, we take that principle and we say, Jesus was not abused. Jesus did not let Himself be abused. He gave Himself as a lamb to the slaughter as a sacrifice for the Father and for the world. But that's very different. Up until that time, we see Him have great boundaries. We see Him not get, it even says He didn't entrust Himself to man because He knew what was in their hearts. I mean, He had boundaries with people that could have hurt Him.   And I also love when we see this in the story of King David and Saul, when Saul is chasing David, Saul is abusive, right? He wants to kill David. And so, David escapes. And there's a situation where David has the power or the opportunity to kill Saul and he doesn't do it. And then Saul just is struck by his conscience, and he comes back to David. He goes, “You're a better man than I am. I'm so sorry. You know, come back with me and I'll treat you well.” And even though David doesn't take revenge, he doesn't go back with Saul. He's still, he's like, “You go your way. I'll go my way. I'm going to let the Lord judge between us.”   And I think that's a great model. If you're in any kind of abusive relationship, you don't take revenge, but you also don't stay in that situation. You go your way, let them go their way, and you let God judge between you. And I think we see that over and over again in scripture.   Laura Dugger: (47:42 – 48:19) I think that is so well said. And it reminds me of a somewhat recent conversation in 2025 with Stacey Womack who's saying with domestic violence, really the way God would see it is child abuse. And that kind of helps our paradigm because we are His child.   And she elaborates on that. So, I said that that was the last one, but I actually thought of one more as it relates to our children.   So, is it reasonable to assume that once a child has a smartphone, 100% of them will be exposed to pornography?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (48:21 – 49:15) Yeah, it is. And I would say not just once they have a smartphone, because I know with one of my kids, we delayed the smartphone decision, but he had a learning disability that required him to have an iPad for school. And somehow, even though we locked down all the apps, somehow he's able to access it through that. Or it can be a gaming system, or it can be a friend's phone. And so, having a smartphone or device like that certainly makes it more probable.   But you know, like our kids are surrounded by screens and technology, not just what's in our home, but in other people's homes and at school. And so, I think it's safe to assume, unfortunately, that yes, 100% of our kids are going to be exposed to pornography, probably by the time they're 13 or 14.   Laura Dugger: (49:16 – 49:31) And sadly, some much younger than that. But even if there's parental controls, or filters put on, it is just something on my heart that we have to be so vigilant against.   Dr. Juli Slattery: (49:32 – 50:12) Yeah, no, I felt like when, you know, I have three boys, and when they were all three kind of in those teen years, I felt like I was trying to plug holes in a boat, and there'd be new ones popping up all the time. Whether it's like apps, or you know, things that you think are completely safe. Somehow, pornography can get through.   And our kids are smart, like they know the workarounds to the parental things. And that's why we just need to have conversation after conversation, just discipling them, not just protecting them from pornography, but discipling them through what they're inevitably going to be exposed to.   Laura Dugger: (50:13 – 51:05) That's a great point that not just being reactive, but proactive. I think why I have such a heart for this is because practicing and doing therapy and having so many people come in those wounds, that if that addiction gets a stronghold, and that pornography use, it just can wreak havoc in people long term. And so, if we can do that hard work of discipling early on, it is such a blessing to our children, to the generation.   So, I'm just so grateful for your candid responses. And I think it's also a helpful reminder just to never take on a burden that was never meant for us to carry. So, are there any ways that God has taught you to not try and do His business?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (51:07 – 52:16) Yeah. Boy, that's such a great question. I've had to come to the conclusion that I can't convince anyone of right and wrong. You know, like, I can't convince anyone that pornography is wrong, or gay marriage is wrong, or you know, like, that's not my job. My job is to walk with the Lord with integrity and faithfulness and to testify as to who He is.   And so much of this work, whether we're talking about marriage or our friends or our children, so much of this work has to be the Lord's work. And you reach a stage with your kids when they hit those teen years, where you realize the things my kids most need, I can't give them. I can't give them a relationship with God. I can't give them the desire to follow and seek the Lord. Like, I can model that for them. I can encourage them. But that is between them and the Lord. And if I try to control that, I'm just getting in the way of the work that God wants to do in their lives.   Laura Dugger: (52:18 – 52:33) Goodness, I will need to write that down and reflect on that. That is so good, Juli. And there's still so much more that you could share with us.   So, where is your preferred place that we can go online and continue learning from you?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (52:34 – 52:48) Yeah, I would say two places. Number one, our website is authenticintimacy.com. And the second one is the podcast that I do called Java with Juli. It goes along with The Savvy Sauce, you know, like they kind of go together.   Laura Dugger: (52:49 – 53:11) Yes, absolutely. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode.   And you're familiar, I've asked you many times before, because we are called savvy, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So, as my final question for you today, Dr. Juli, what is your savvy sauce?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (53:13 – 53:58) Oh, I don't even remember how I answered this the last few times. I think I may have said this before, but I think reading the dead old guys is one of my savvy sauce, like reading people who didn't live in this generation who loved the Lord.   And learning from them is just, that's probably taught me more discernment than anything, because they just cut right through the cultural noise that I think sometimes can blind us. And they really help me see my heart for what it is and help me really want to pursue God at a deeper level.   Laura Dugger: (53:59 – 54:03) Wow. Any specific recommendations that have been personal favorites there?   Dr. Juli Slattery: (54:04 – 54:22) Yeah, I love A.W. Tozer. I love many of Andrew Murray's books, particularly Humility and Absolute Surrender. And C.S. Lewis is another great one, Mere Christianity. So, those are some that I would recommend you start with.   Laura Dugger: (54:23 – 54:44) That is wonderful. Thank you for sharing that.   And Juli, it's just always such a delight to get to share an hour of conversation with you. And you are just this beautiful mixture of bold and gentle and humble, all combined into one. So, thank you for being my returning guest today.   Dr. Juli Slattery: (54:44 – 54:49) Oh, thank you. And it's such a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for your great questions.   Laura Dugger: (54:51 – 58:33) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

*Disclaimer* This episode contains adult content and is not recommended for young listeners.   Hebrews 12:15 NLT “Look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God. Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many.”   *Transcription Below*   About Dr. Morgan Cutlip:  It's hard to know where to start so I'll start with what matters most to me and that's my relationships.   I'm a mother to two kids, Effie (12) and Roy (9). They are hilarious, spirited, spicy, deeply thoughtful and emotional kids. I adore them and being their mother. They've challenged me in the most surprising and wonderful ways. I'm married to my high school sweetheart, Chad. I always feel like I lose a little street cred when I say that so, for the record, we didn't date that entire time and eventually reconnected years after college on MySpace (yup, now I've aged myself). He's the love of my life, an incredible man that loves others deeply, works so very hard, and continues to be open to growth and change.   I've worked in the field of relationship education for over 15 years alongside my father, Dr. John Van Epp, who is the founder of Love Thinks and developer of multiple relationship education courses that have been taught to over a million people worldwide. I started traveling to conferences with him when I was in junior high and so, in many ways, it feels like I've grown up in the relationship education field. He's amazing and brilliant and I'm blessed to have learned so much from him over the years we worked together and just cherish our relationship.   I distinctly remember a conversation with my dad over 20 years ago where I said that someday I wanted to support women, but I just wasn't sure how.   Fast forward 10 years and Effie (our oldest) was born and, holy moly, did motherhood hit me like a ton of bricks and I completely lost myself in motherhood (you can read the full story in my book).

Special Patreon Release: Emotionally Healthy Familial Relationships with Cherilyn Orr   "bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord." Ephesians 6:4b (KJV)   *Transcription Below*   Cherilyn Orr is passionate about helping parents, teachers, and guardians raise emotionally healthy and resilient children. She has worked with families and educators in North America, Europe, and Africa to help them build safe schools, homes, and communities where children can flourish. The Stoplight Approach that she developed was born out of her experiences as an educator, a foster mom, and a mom to seven through birth and adoption, and it combines biblical truths with the latest brain science. Connect with her on her Website, Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube.   Topics and Questions We Cover: What are a few helpful tips for us to understand brain science 101? How can we repair the relationship when we don't disciple and discipline from our Green zone? Within the stoplight approach, can you provide some examples of how we can calm a red-rooted misbehavior?   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:07) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.   Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at Chick-fil-A.com/EastPeoria.   If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living.   And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, TheSavvySauce.com.   Cherilyn Orr is my guest today. She is kind and humble and a woman who's passionate about helping parents, teachers, and guardians raise emotionally healthy and resilient children. She's going to share how she combines biblical truths with the latest brain science to build healthy relationships in the family. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Cherilyn.   Cherilyn Orr: (2:07 - 2:08) Thank you. I'm really happy to join you today.   Laura Dugger: (2:08 - 2:10) And will you start by just giving us a snapshot of your life right now?   Cherilyn Orr: (2:08 - 3:11) Yes, I am actually talking to you from Athens, Greece. That is where our family resides right now. And we've been here for the last few years. And before that, we lived in Uganda and Africa.   I have seven children and my oldest is now a mom herself. And she just gave birth a couple months ago to a preemie little baby. And I am so excited because now I have entered the world of grandparenthood.   But I'm also in the throes of life with a 12-year-old, a 14-year-old, and a 17-year-old. And I have a university student living at home. My next son is 21, and he's also living at home, going to university. So those are my four at home.   I have one in Canada, working there. And I have two that are married. One that lives in Africa with his wife, and they're working there. And another one with my grandbaby that's living here in Greece, working with the church here.   Laura Dugger: (3:12 - 3:19) That is quite a full family and a global family. What has taken you to the different parts of the world?   Cherilyn Orr: (3:20 - 3:44) Well, we are a missional family. But we believe that everybody's called to be a missional and to serve God. And God happens to have taken us to different places.   I've been working with The Stoplight Approach now for a few years now. My husband does leadership training as well. So that's kind of what's taken us around the world. Now that we're in Greece, I'm also involved with refugees as well here.   Laura Dugger: (3:45 - 4:06) Well, we are fortunate to live in a time with access to scientific knowledge about the brain. And it all points back to our brilliant Creator, God. But you make this brain science so simple to comprehend. So, can you just share a few helpful tips for us so that we can understand kind of brain science 101?   Cherilyn Orr: (4:08 - 6:40) Yes, I think for me, it's been a journey. But it came when after we adopted a child and she was having an all-out meltdown. And it would have taken me an hour or so to regroup her.   And it was just amazing. I was with a friend and she is a behavioral consultant. And she said, “Let me.” And this was after we had had her for at least a couple of years at this point. And she just said, “Let me.”   And she got down on the ground where my child was screaming hysterically. And she was able to get her back sitting on her seat, doing what she was supposed to in less than, I don't know, 10 minutes.   And I was shocked because here I am an educator. I have a master's degree. I'm a special needs teacher. I have been working for years with children in different settings around the world. And here I was looking at her doing something that I just didn't know how to do.   It was a huge paradigm shift for me when she said afterwards, I said, “What did you do?”   And she said, “It's by understanding the brain. The brain is like three parts. It's like a stoplight.”   So, she said, if you can think of it that way, as there's that bottom part of your brain, which is that fight, flight, freeze. When you are just only using 50% of your capacity and you just can't hear anybody's perspective.   And then there's that middle part of your brain, which is the limbic system. And she said, you know, that's when you're using 75% or so of your brain capacity. And that's when you're stressed, you're worried, you're anxious, and you're just not at your best.   And then there's your top part of your brain, which is your neocortex, which you are just ready to learn. And you can problem solve and you can think and you are the best version of yourself at that moment.   And she talked to me a little bit about that. And she's just said, this is what's happening in your brain. For me, that was a wow, you know, because it's like understanding the brain is so opposite than anything that I had ever done. And as an educator, I've been trained to control children. I've taken courses on behavior management. And this was just like changing the equation. When you understand the brain, then it changes how you can relate to the child in your care.   Laura Dugger: (6:41 - 7:05) And also, I will just sprinkle in a few little things that I found fascinating in your book. One of your conclusions was that relationships are the biggest factor in brain development and for it to develop in a healthy way. So, is that what you found true throughout the years of our life, that relationships are vital?   Cherilyn Orr: (7:05 - 8:02) It's for everybody. And it needs to start with that relationship. And that relationship has what I would say three pillars, which is safety, which is your red brain. In order to come out of that fight, flight or freeze, you have to feel safe.   And in order to come out of yellow brain, which is your limbic system, you need to feel connected and you need to feel respected. And respect means to be seen, heard and valued. And when you're in that yellow brain state, you don't feel connected. You feel disconnected.   So, in order to get people to green brain, you need to make them feel seen, heard and valued. So, if we want healthy relationships and we want green home, then we need to be able to help our children get to that green brain state. But it starts by making them feel safe and making them feel connected. So, relationship is foundational.   Laura Dugger: (8:02 - 8:24) And you've combined your knowledge of the Bible and all of this brain science to write a book entitled Signals: How Brain Science and the Bible Help Parents Raise Resilient Children. So, will you elaborate now on that Stoplight Approach that you teach and write about?   Cherilyn Orr: (8:27 - 11:10) Well, yes, I am so excited because we just looked at, you know, those three elements, safety, respect and being connected, and then we could teach it. And when we look at the Bible and we say, “How does God view me and how does He work with me?”   I go back to the fact is when God sees me in my mess ups and He sees my anger or my gossip or my addictions or whatever I'm struggling with. He looks at me and He says, “Come to me. I am your safety. I am your refuge.”   He wants us to bring Him our messes. He says, “Come to me just as you are, not as you want to be, not as you should be and not as you could be.” And in that context, He says, “I delight in you. I know you. I know every hair on your head. I know you. I know your name and I love you. You are in the palm of my hand and I delight in you.”   And Zephaniah talks about and He sings over us, not because we've done something, not because we're worthy, because He knows that unless we feel safe and unless we are in that connection and can relationship with them, then He cannot help us to train us and to walk with us and guide us through the process of growing and becoming that healthy person that He desires for us to be.   So, I was so excited when I looked at who God is and how it matches with what brain science is teaching us about red, yellow, green and how we can't teach anybody. It takes 12 to 15 times to teach a child a new skill when they are in green. That same child, that same skill when he's there in red will take 350 to 400 times because that is not the part of the brain where you can do problem solving or critical thinking or even to have empathy for anybody else. That part of the brain can only do rote learning. So, it will take you so long to teach a child when they're in that part of the brain.   And I love it because that obedience is an outflowing of a relationship with us, with God. And when we look at our child, that's what we want is we don't want them to obey us because they fear us, but we want them to obey us because they are connected to us. Just like God wants us to obey Him in that relationship, not because it's the rule and that's what we need to do.   So, I'm so excited to see how that brain science is catching up to who God is.   Laura Dugger: (11:11 - 12:07) Oh, my goodness. That is amazing to also just think of the Lord as obviously our parent and we want to model after Him. Some of this is reminding me there was a previous episode with Dr. Josh and Christy Straub where they were looking at research findings about parenting. And one of them was that it was so important for us to be self-regulated when we're responding to our children. And there's a connection.   So, in your book, I'm just going to read this one quote from page 56. You wrote, “One of the most shocking things I realized as I learned about brain science was that it is impossible to make a child feel loved when the parent is in yellow or red. They feel our stress. They feel our disapproval.” And so, would you like to elaborate on that as well?   Cherilyn Orr: (12:09 - 13:41) Well, we have this thing that we talk a lot about in The Stoplight Approach. We talk about the stoplight starts with me. You cannot give what you don't have.   So many parents will say, “I love my child,” but the child does not feel loved. And when I was doing seminars and training throughout North America, you know, often people say, “We are a yellow society.” And that broke my heart.   We are a yellow society. We're running our kids at five in the morning to this program, to hockey or this or programs late at night. And we're just running.   And I feel like if we are yellow and we are stressed, then there is automatically a disconnect. There's almost like a gate that says, do not enter. You can't go through it unless you are in green.   You're in red, then your whole house turns to red. Mama's in red, everybody's in red. Or if you're in yellow, you'll start to see the children in your care are in yellow.   And I find that in my house. When I start to see my house going to that yellow space, I start to have to do like, what color am I in? If I'm in yellow, then they're going to be in yellow. And you start to see them fighting amongst themselves or bickering or just not cooperating. And there's that tension that comes because they're picking up my yellowness and my stress.   Laura Dugger: (13:42 - 14:04) And so, let's go a little bit further with that scenario. If parents are in a very stressful season and there are quite a few to-do's that have to get done on top of the daily things. If that parent identifies they are in the yellow, maybe in the red, how can they get back to green even in the midst of a crazy time of life?   Cherilyn Orr: (14:06 - 16:26) Well, you know, you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be a perfect parent. But what science is showing us and it's what God wants from us is that sense of repair. We need to look at how do we repair because that's what our child needs because life is not perfect and we are not perfect. And I am certainly far from being a perfect parent. But how do I repair the damage and how do I connect?   So, we call it fix it, treasure it and change it. So, fix it is: Yes, I am sorry. Mommy yelled at you. I am so sorry I did that. I was in yellow and I was really stressed. Would you forgive me? I love you and you did not deserve me to yell at you. I care about you and I did not handle that appropriately.   And I want you to help me. This is what I've said to my children. I want you to help me when I'm going to red or I'm going to yellow. Just remind me and say, “Mom, you're going to yellow.” And then that can help me to make some changes right then and create that gap so that I'm not reacting. Or maybe I could take a walk or maybe I could get myself back to green.   When I react in that yellow or red brain state, it's not safe for you. It's not safe for others. So, let's work together on this.   And then we can talk about maybe what was happening in our house at that time as well. And maybe how they can help things to go smoother in our house. So that they could take some responsibility in helping because Mommy didn't feel seen, heard and valued. You know, I had asked you five times to do that. So how do we work together to make this house run smoother?   So being red and yellow are not bad things. It's not like you are horrible because you went to red and yellow. It's warning. It's like an alarm going off to say, be careful, be careful.   It's an opportunity to reflect and say, what's not working here? What's the deeper issue here? Yes, maybe I was overtired and maybe I did this. But what else is going on? And I may need to look back on things that maybe are triggering me that are deeper. And maybe things that relate back to my own childhood or how I was raised.   Laura Dugger: (16:26 - 16:52) That makes a lot of sense, that reflection. Because I studied psychology and marriage and family therapy. And we were always taught, name it to tame it. And sometimes that really does help when we can pinpoint and identify and name. What is that trigger? It helps to tame it. And I think the biblical concept is when you share it with somebody else, when you bring it into the light, it does lose a lot of its power.   Cherilyn Orr: (16:53 - 17:46) Definitely. Because if I can say I'm in red, it helps me know what I need to do to get myself back to green. So, if I can start to recognize when my body is starting to get tense, when I'm starting to get stressed, I can say, oh, this is my warning. I need to do this. I need to have a shower. I need to go for a walk. I need to regroup myself so that I'm not reacting to my children in my red brain state. I can get myself back to green first. So, I can create that gap.   So, naming it, that's what I think the success of Stoplight is. It's the common language that says how do we help each other when we are moving to yellow and we are moving to red so that everybody in the family knows that red is not bad, but how do we help that person in their red to get back to green?   Laura Dugger: (17:48 - 17:52) What is the Stoplight Approach to discipline and boundaries?   Cherilyn Orr: (17:54 - 22:32) Well, sometimes people think, oh, is The Stoplight Approach permissive? You know, we just let kids do what they want and let them be in green. If anybody has multiple children, you know that if one child is being self-centered and they're in their own world, it's going to create chaos for the rest of the family.   And so, Stoplight is not about permissiveness. And I think we need to be looking at the word discipline comes from the word disciple, which means to train. If you can kind of get that word discipline, because so often we've mixed that word discipline with punishment. So, it's all about punishing a child, whereas actually discipline is not about punishing. It's about training a child.   And everybody, every child needs boundaries. Boundaries help to keep us safe. They help to keep our family safe. It helps to keep that relationships in a healthy way.   So, we often use that word to look at how do we as parents, we've always got boundaries. Don't run in the road. We want to keep you safe. Don't touch the hot stove because you'll burn yourself. So, we look for ways to keep our child safe, and we look for ways to help them be safe in relationships. Yes, you want that ball, but you don't hit the other child to get the ball. So, what could we do differently?   Proverbs 13:24 is a common phrase that I grew up hearing. It was kind of like the parenting theology of my generation. “Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but who loves him diligently disciplines him.”   So that was a verse that I heard a lot in my life. But then as I was studying and looking at brain science and really studying about who is God. And I had to look at what is my image of God? Is He this harsh judge up there that maybe subconsciously I believed? Or is He that loving father like the prodigal son that's waiting for his son? Not to punish him, but to love him and to connect with him. And it says in the New Testament, Jesus says, if you've seen him, you've seen the Father. So, He's a good, good father.   So, then I started to dissect this. What is the rod used for? And it talks about the rod being a comfort and a rod being a sense of protection. And we often hear it used in relationships to sheep. You know, if we're going to keep sheep safe, then we need the rod. That shepherd used a rod to protect his sheep from wild animals. So, as we look at that word rod, it's a protection tool.   So, we take apart that and then hates his son. I think, wow, a parent that does not protect their child or teaches their child to be aware of the dangers in this world. So, as a young child, you're protecting them and teaching them to make safe choices. And then as they get older, you still have to continually, continually teach them that. And so, when I look at that word rod and hates his son, that would be a neglectful. In my words, a parent who is neglectful to teach.   The second verse talks about diligently. And that reminds me in Deuteronomy, when we're told to teach our children all through the day, when we're walking, when we're sitting, when we're at mealtimes. We should be using our days to continually teach our children and to discipline them, which would be to train them in the way that they should go.   And I look at God as our creator of our brain. And He loves us so very, very much. And He wants the very best for us. And we know that children and human beings do better when they feel better. So how do we connect with our child? How do we protect our children? And how do we take that opportunity to be present with our child?   Those are hard things for a lot of parents these days to be present, to be engaged with them and to look for ways to continually be working with them and protecting them and keeping them safe.   Laura Dugger: (22:33 - 22:58) Wow. And I just want to share one of my favorite takeaways from page 143, where you write “Green rooted misbehavior needs coaching. Yellow roots need connection. And red roots need calming.” So, can you provide some examples with that last one of how we can calm a red rooted misbehavior?   Cherilyn Orr: (23:00 - 27:00) Yes, I certainly can. So, all three of these are so important because we often miss it. I'm going to say that red root, it needs us to speak the red language, speak red brain. And to speak red brain means to stop talking about the problem.   That child does not have capacity to hear you when they are in a red brain state. They need me to be calm. They need me to be in green. And they need me to stop talking. And maybe to only use words that feel safe. You're safe. I'm here. You're safe. I'm here. There's no point in talking to anybody in red brain because they have no capacity to hear.   And then also to be able to go for a walk with your child. Repetitive patterning activities are really helpful. Like for my children, each of my children have, they have a green plan. It's like, what do I do when I'm starting to go to red?   So maybe for one of my children, we have a hammock outside. So, she goes there. These are planned ahead of time when they are in green. These are discussed ahead of time. So, another child will, you know, might listen to music, have a shower, go for a walk. Every single one of us, whether it be an adult or child, should look at what do I need to do to get back to green.   As a parent, when we're looking at green rooted misbehaviors, red rooted misbehaviors and yellow roots misbehaviors, you could have the same issue like two kids fighting. You come around the corner and there you see your two siblings fighting. As a parent, often we go to red immediately. Our brain state goes because it feels threatening. It feels fearful to us. And then we react.   So, I have to take a deep breath myself and I have to say, OK, what brain state is this child in? And sometimes we don't know. So, we can call the children and say, what's going on? Just stopping and asking the question will give us the opportunity to hear what brain state our child is in.   If they happily look it up and say, we were playing Pirates of the Caribbean or something that they had seen on a TV show, then you can say, OK, well, what you're doing is unsafe and somebody is going to get hurt. But they're just acting.   And then if it's a yellow brain state, it's like he pushed me, he touched me. And they're just kind of bickering at each other. They're not really all out fighting. But, you know, you can look at them and say, let's stop and let's make each other feel seen, heard and valued. So, you can work with that child because that child at that point is in yellow brain. And then we can speak yellow brain, which is people don't feel that they're being heard. They don't feel respected. And that's when you can talk about what other things that they could do instead.   And then, of course, we have red brain when these children are all out to hurt each other. They are mad. So that's when we can go into that red brain and say, OK, both of you need to get back to green. We're not going to talk about this right now. I want you to use your green plan and get yourselves back to green. And then we will talk.   Some children can do that independently and some children need you to do it with them. And sometimes it might be that you just take those two children out and say, we're going to run around the block together.” And it's how do you connect with your child at that particular time and keep them safe and get them moving and get their brain state back up to green before you talk with them.   Laura Dugger: (27:01 - 32:37) And now a brief message from our sponsor. Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? 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You can also call the restaurant at 309-694-1044 to find out more. And if you aren't located near Chick-fil-A East Peoria, make sure you check with your local Chick-fil-A restaurant to see if they also participate in the Elevate program with Point University. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Are you utilizing Savvy Sauce Charities to full capacity? Other than our special Patreon release episodes, our content is now available in video form in addition to our audio only. And we have written transcriptions for every episode. Visit our website today, TheSavvySauce.com, to access all these forms of interviews. And while you're there, make sure you sign up for our email list to receive encouragement, questions, and recommended resources about once a month to promote your own practical chats for intentional living.   I also want to remind you about the financial side of Savvy Sauce Charities. As you know, we recently became a non-profit, which means all your financial support is now tax deductible. There are multiple ways to give, and we would be so honored if you would share your financial support with us so that we can continue producing free content that is accessible to the general public. Your money will go to support creatively getting the gospel message of Jesus Christ to the nations as we continue to share the good news on every episode. And I say this is reaching the nations because The Savvy Sauce podcast is downloaded in all 50 United States, as well as over 100 countries around the world. Your financial support also supports practical needs, such as aiding our team to continue producing helpful content that is practical and uplifting and always pointing to Jesus. Your financial support, furthermore, will help us continue to expand our reach and secure future projects we have planned for this ministry.   If your ears are hearing this message right now, I am specifically asking you to give. We are so grateful for any amount, and our team will continue to seek to be good stewards of the gifts offered to us. So, if you want to write a check or set up an ongoing payment with your bank that delivers a check to us each month, this is the most beneficial way to give because no percentages are taken out for processing fees. You can make your checkout to Savvy Sauce Charities at P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois, 61561.   Additionally, with our new website, we now have a donate button. There are processing fees that we cover for these donations, but we wanted to offer listeners a seamless way to share their finances with us when we share our content with them. So just visit TheSavvySauce.com and find the donate page under the tab support. Another way to find it is simply type in donate to the search bar on our website and just click the first picture shown.   We are all about sharing around here, sharing resources, sharing joy, and sharing the good news about Jesus Christ. We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing the Savvy Sauce podcast episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review. You can also share any of our social media posts on Instagram or Facebook. We are grateful for all of it, and we just love partnering together with you.   Now, back to the show. And then on our side, I love how you also bring in the repair piece. So how can we practically repair the relationship when we don't disciple and discipline from our green zone as the parent?   Cherilyn Orr: (32:38 - 34:39) Yes, I feel like that is, it's really hard to ask your child to do anything that you're not doing because they're not going to actually be able to take that to heart. And if you say to a child, “I want you to say sorry to your sibling,” they're just going to look and go, “Sorry,” and have no meaning whatsoever.   And that's why we've done a lot of apology notes in my home over the years, because it's an opportunity to really sit down and reflect and talk. And we talk about how the card needs to be beautiful because we need to treasure that person. And so, they need to apologize for what they did. They need to talk about why on earth are they even writing this apology note? Why is that person of value? Because they're our sister or they're our brother or they're our friend or they're the teacher or the coach. And they are a part of our community and our family. So, we need to write that apology note to value that person.   And then we talk about what are we going to do next time. So those three points go into every single apology note my kids write: fix it, treasure it, change it. But you cannot do that when the child is in red. You cannot do it when they're in yellow. You need to have them back to green and then we can talk through it. And then they can go and deliver that to that person and then talk about how they can reconcile the situation. But I find that that's a really good reflective piece that I've used over the years.   But as a parent, it's hard to say sorry to your kid. It's easier to jump in and just treasure the child. You know, let's go to the park. Let's do this and just value the child. But then you end up having an insecure relationship because you've never acknowledged the problem. Therefore, you cannot change it. So therefore, you cannot have a healthy reconciliation.   Laura Dugger: (34:40 - 34:57) And how have you seen this Stoplight Approach work across the world? So many different settings with different countries and cultures or families who foster and adapt or even ones raising children with special needs?   Cherilyn Orr: (34:59 - 36:53) Well, the great thing about science is it doesn't change based on where you are in the world and what culture you're in. Every human has a brain, and all human brains function the same way. And all human brains need safety, connection and coaching.   So that's been the exciting part about understanding brain science. So, you know, even when I work in Africa, I'll say to people when I get malaria, do they give me a different medication because I'm from Canada or do they give me the same as you? And everybody says, of course, malaria is malaria. You know, it's because of science.   And I love that whole element of science that our brains are made the same. It doesn't matter what culture you're in and it doesn't matter what special needs you have. If I see a child and they're under the table and they're holding their ears, I might not know that child at all. But I know that that child is in red brain. I don't have to know if they're special needs. I don't have to know anything else. I can immediately diagnose what brain state that child is in. And then I can work at creating safety for that child. And connecting with that child. And then we can find out how do we move that child and work with that child, whatever their needs are.   And I have four adopted children, and I have fostered many children. In the process of doing that, I have recognized that every child needs to feel safe, connected, and then we can train them. So, it's like changing the equation for how we work with the children. But it works for all people. So, I don't have to have a different philosophy of parenting for my adopted child or my foster child or my biological children. Does that make sense?   Laura Dugger: (36:53 - 37:03) Yes, absolutely. And to personalize it, how has The Stoplight Approach then worked in your life and with you and your husband raising your own children?   Cherilyn Orr: (37:05 - 41:32) I just love the fact that it's a common language. So, I can give you an example of one day there was company coming and I was really stressed. And it seemed like everywhere I looked; every room was a disaster. You know, I had teenagers who were cooking and making themselves food and it was a mess. I had children that had used the bathroom and made a mess all through the bathroom. And then I had toys everywhere and sheets being made into forts. And I had company showing up.   And so, I was going into to Red Brain and I started going, “Who did this? What did you do? Who left this here? Who made this mess?” And one of my kids went and says, “Dad, mom's going to Red.” And that wasn't a judgment. That was like, this is a fact. We need your help here.   And so, dad comes along and he says, he puts his hand on my shoulder and he says, “You're going to Red.” He says, “Why don't you go for a walk? I'll do zone cleanup with the kids because I'm in green. And you can come back in 20 minutes and then you can do all the final tidy up before the kids come. And then that we could greet the company and green.”   So, it just becomes that common language of understanding. And he knew my need at that time. I was feeling unsafe because the house was a disaster. And my brain just was it's a brain issue, right? It's not a behavior issue. But then it was like, how do we support mom in this moment? And then I came back 20 minutes later and did the final little cleanups, and we were able to greet the company in green.   So, there's an example of using the common language as a way to help others in our family know what brain state you're in to support one another. And to be able to identify and connect.   I mean, I could give you tons of examples, even from the smallest child. They start to understand. “He made me go to red” or “I'm in red now.” So, then it's like, OK, so what do we need to do? How do we do this?   I mean, there's been days when all of a sudden I hear everybody kind of not doing too great. And I get them all to sit at the table. And I said, “So what color is our home right now?” And somebody say red. Somebody else says yellow. Then you're saying, “OK, but what kind of home do we want to have?” And they'll say green. So, what do we need to do to get it to green?   So, I think there's there's many, many different ways. But I think it's that common language that even the small child that's two and three can start to learn when they're in red or we can start to use it to teach empathy. When you did that to your sibling, what color did we make him? He didn't feel seen, heard and valued.   Just a few weeks ago, my daughter. Here's here's a recent example. We've had a refugee staying with us for a couple of years, a little girl, and she was about three. All of a sudden there was this blood curdling screaming, you know, just screaming. And I come around the corner going, “What's going on?” And my 12-year-old, very responsible, is holding scissors. She's running with scissors.   And so, my 12-year-old here was a chance to talk. And I said, “OK, so when you took her scissors away, she did not feel seen, heard and valued. Because when you took them away from her, you didn't actually speak to her. So, you need to get down on your knees, and you need to look at her and say, what did you want the scissors for? And we need to teach her. Where do we have scissors? How do we use them?”   So, she was being responsible to keep her safe. But she didn't make her feel seen, heard and valued and listen to her and say, “Oh, you want to cut your hair. Oh, only mommy cuts hair. You can't cut your hair, but we could use our scissors at the table.” So, using red, yellow and green helps to give incredible opportunities to teach empathy and to look at themselves, self-awareness and how to grow and take responsibility.   Laura Dugger: (41:34 - 42:06) And I love how you talk about this common language in such a proactive way with our children, with our families. So that when we are in red, we've got a path and a plan to get back to green. And we've got some tips for repair.   So, when we go to the proactive side and kind of tie this back into the beginning, when we talked about relationships are the foundation for brain health and development. What are some ways to securely attach with our children during different ages and stages?   Cherilyn Orr: (42:08 - 45:54) I think it comes back to being intentional. I often think of it as the 5-10-5 rule. Five minutes in the morning, five minutes in the evening and five minutes before they go to bed at night. It's that opportunity to stop what you're doing and to just focus in intentionally connecting with my child.   It's not easy. It's not easy. But it's how do I connect first thing in the morning when that child has been disconnected from me all night long? How do I connect with them first thing in the morning before they start their day? And then how do I connect with them like after school, before dinner? And how do I hear about what they want to tell me about their day? What part was red? What part was yellow? What kind of day they had?   One of my kids goes, “It was lime green.” And I'm like, “Okay, so how did that happen?”   “Well, I was in green and then I lost my backpack. So, I went to yellow, but then the teacher helped me find it. So, then I went back to green.” So that's how she described her day.   And then you have that connecting before they go to bed at night. That's just like, I see you, I know you, I hear you.   And so that can look differently according to different ages and stages of life. But I think holding that 5-10-5 is a good principle. And there are so many of my children that that 5-10-5 happens in hours and hours. Because they are children that demand my attention. And they are there and they are wanting that continual attention. So, some kids it happens more naturally too.   And then there are some children, and especially as they start getting older, it's a lot more challenging to be able to find that 5-10-5. And that doesn't mean in the busyness of the dinner table or in chore times. But it's about trying to connect with them and say, “I hear you. Tell me about your life. And where are you at?” Or just really just having fun with them. And just connecting to them and laughing with them and playing a game with them as well. Or going for a walk. We do a lot of that.   And with teenagers, and especially boys, it was all about the food. I would show up in their room with a milkshake or something else. Or call them out of their rooms to connect with them at different times. So, you have to be creative. It's not about my schedule sometimes. It's about looking at when they are open as well. Especially as you start getting into teenagers.   And I found that one of my teenagers, she'd always like to come and sit on my bed. Just at 11 o'clock at night. Just as I feel like I'm down for the night. And you know that baby is going to start waking up at 6 or 7. And you're just dying to go to sleep. But you know that this is important. She's ready to talk. And so, I need to be available.   Which isn't easy. But also, I think, how do we do that with seven children? Because that's a lot of kids. But my husband and I, we look at dividing and conquering. And then we look at special times. Like daddy time. Or going out with mom. Where I'll take one child to do a chore. Or go shopping. And I think that is really important to think about. How am I intentionally connecting with my child? So, I took a child to Canada recently. And I often will take a different child on different trips that I'm going on.   Laura Dugger: (45:55 - 46:15) Okay, so five minutes right in the morning. Greeting each other. Five minutes before bed. And finding ten minutes of intentional time to connect. Is that one-on-one throughout the day?   Cherilyn Orr: Yes.   Laura Dugger: You've given us so many helpful tips to apply. Is there any other encouragement that you want to make sure that we don't miss out on?   Cherilyn Orr: (46:16 - 47:52) I think when you hear a lot of these stories. First of all, I want you to know that I am not perfect. As a mom, it's a journey. And I don't want you to go away feeling like, I could never do all this. It's a journey one baby step at a time. And I encourage you to get the book. Listen to podcasts. And be able to join that journey. But don't be hard on yourself. And don't feel that sense of guilt and shame. That says, oh my, I messed up. That's okay.   Being able to recognize you messed up is a good thing. And also recognize that you think, oh man, I messed up on my kids. I did all the wrong things. I want to tell you that we all do the best we can with the knowledge that we have. And that's really, really important to know. It's like, this is a journey. And you are doing the best.   I learned all about behavior management. How do I control my child's behavior? And that was how I parented when I started this journey. And it has been a journey to shift into brain science. And to learn as much as I can about the brain science. And how it impacts my child. And to grow and be the parent that God wants me to be. But don't be hard on yourself in that way. That would be my biggest thing is. And to take one baby step. To decide one baby step that you take.   Laura Dugger: (47:52 - 47:57) And where can people find and learn more from you online?   Cherilyn Orr: (47:58 - 48:14) Well, look at the StoplightApproach.org. So that is our website. And you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. And you can preorder and sign up for your book (Signals: How Brain Science and the Bible Help Parents Raise Resilient Children). You can get that on Amazon.   Laura Dugger: (48:15 - 48:32) Wonderful. We will add those links to the show notes for today's episode. And Cherilyn, you may know we are called The Savvy Sauce. Because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so is my final question for you today. What is your Savvy Sauce?   Cherilyn Orr: (48:33 - 48:55) I would say that it's not about controlling behavior. It's about connecting with my child. Relationship first rather than behavior first. It's like changing the equation. Relationship is the key. And everything else will flow out of that. And then if you can think of change the brain. Then you'll be able to change the behavior.   Laura Dugger: (48:56 – 49:20) Oh, I love that. That is memorable. And I really appreciate your emphasis on relationship. And it's so helpful to hear your stories of how this has played out over time. And cultures. And how we can now take this common language into our own homes. So, Cherilyn, thank you so much for sharing this research. And your book with us. And thank you for being my guest today.   Cherilyn Orr: (49:21 – 49:23) Thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger: (49:24 – 53:06) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

282. Family Sabbath: Pause and Delight with Eryn Lynum   Mark 2:27 NIV “Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”   *Transcription Below*   Eryn Lynum is a certified Master Naturalist, Bible teacher, national speaker, and author. Eryn lives in Northern Colorado with her husband, Grayson, and their four children, whom they homeschool—mainly in the great outdoors. Eryn has has been featured on FamilyLife Today, Proverbs 31 Ministries, Christian Parenting, MOPS International, Bible Gateway, Her View From Home, and For Every Mom. Every opportunity she gets, she is out exploring God's creation with her family and sharing the adventures. To learn more about Eryn, visit ErynLynum.com.   Eryn's Books Eryn's Free Resources Mentioned Nat Theo Podcast   Topics and Questions We Cover: What can this look like to daily align our activities with our deepest values? What do people actually do on this day of rest and what do you recommend for families? Are there any other practical benefits we're missing out on if we neglect rest?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company   Related Savvy Sauce Episodes: 81 Rest with Doctor, Author, and Speaker, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith 99 Sabbath Rest with Sandy Feit 175 Practicing Sabbath with Shireen Eldridge   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:34) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.   Eryn Lynum is my wonderful guest for today, and she's the author of this beautiful book, The Nature of Rest. We're going to discuss all things related to rest, ways that we can prepare for it, how we can enjoy and delight in it, what good gifts God has for us with rest, and then how to reflect well on the rhythms in our life, and so much more.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Eryn.   Eryn Lynum: (1:34 - 4:03) Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.   Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love for you to start us off by sharing your personal journey and tell why you are so uniquely qualified to teach and write about rest, as stress can literally kill you.   Eryn Lynum: Yeah, that's correct. So, when I was 14 years old, I was diagnosed with a potentially fatal autoimmune disorder. And kind of the context of that season, I was preparing to go overseas for the first time on a missions trip. So, I was going to be in Africa for two months. And so, before you go do something like that, you have to go to the doctor and get a checkup and vaccine recommendations, all the things. And so, my parents took me in.   Again, I was 14 at the time, and we had no reason to believe that there was anything wrong. There were no red flags. Besides, I had been a little tired, a little dizzy once in a while, but really, we just thought, okay, well, I'm growing up, my body's changing. But when the nurse took my blood pressure that day, it was 56 over 48, which is deathly low.   And so, immediately, that's a red flag. And I undergo more testing and hospital visits and seeing specialists. And they diagnosed me with something called Addison's disease. And Addison's disease, it's where your adrenal glands no longer function. So, maybe you've heard of adrenal fatigue, where someone is so taxed out that their adrenal glands can't keep up because they're meant to produce cortisol, which is our stress hormone. Well, Addison's disease is the worst-case scenario where you can't come back from it, barring a miracle. Like, my adrenal glands don't work, and they haven't for over 20 years now.   And so, you know, this system that God has given us meant to cope with stress, and it's that fight-or-flight response. At that young age, I no longer had that. And so, stress became quite literally deadly to me. And at that point, my parents, they began coaching me in biblical stress management, so identifying stressors in my life.   You know, when your shoulders start creeping up, and you can feel that tension in your neck, and knowing that those are signs that, okay, you need to step back, you need to calm yourself. Like the Psalms talk about, “I have calmed and quieted my soul,” and to bring everything to the Lord and cast all your anxieties upon Him. And this is really where I can see, in my life, I developed a very consistent prayer pattern in my life where just all day long, like conversing with the Lord.   And so, that's been a big part of this. But yeah, that's really what began leading me into this deeply restful lifestyle was out of necessity. But really what I've seen since then is God designed all of us to live and thrive through rest. Like this is His original design.   Laura Dugger: (4:04 - 4:27) I love that so much. And you articulate this so well in your book. But before I ever encountered you, I had never heard of the term master naturalist before. So, if you want to share anything about that, it would be great. And as a master naturalist, where do you see these rhythms of rest in nature?   Eryn Lynum: (4:28 - 6:54) So, a master naturalist, it's really a fancy term for nature teacher. And I pursued this because my degree and my passion are in biblical theology. And I've always been passionate about rightly handling God's word of truth from 2 Timothy 2:15.   And I began to see as my own family, my husband and I, we have three boys and a daughter, and now they're 14 down to seven. But when they were younger and we started spending more time outdoors, I started to see, okay, God has given us so many visuals and materials in nature with which we can teach about Him. Coming from Romans 1:20, that His invisible attributes, those things we can't see about God, are clearly perceived through what He has made. And I saw that also Jesus in the gospels, He used nature all the time to teach.   And God throughout scripture, like it's not just Genesis 1, nature narratives are strong throughout scripture. And so, I thought if God and Jesus use this methodology to teach, then certainly we can. And so, that's why I went through this training and taught, teach with this method is because, you know, the more we understand these materials, the more we see of God and the more we can communicate about Him.   And so, I was working as a master naturalist in our city and teaching my own programs. And I started to incorporate it more and more into my book and then later on in my podcast. And at the same time, God was leading my family into celebrating Sabbath. We had come into this season where we were just exhausted, like running businesses and raising and homeschooling kids, like all of us, no matter our circumstances, face this very real human existence of fatigue. And so, we came to a place where rest was no longer optional. It was critical and vital.   And so, I'm living in these two realms of learning about nature while I'm learning about scripture. And then God is bringing us into deep rest. So, I started to ask the question, where do we see rest in scripture? And I found that it is everywhere. The roots of rest run deep and wide throughout scripture. And also asking, where do we see rest in creation in nature? And it's also everywhere there that God designed all these cycles and these rhythms and all of his plants and creatures, even the ones that we think of as so frenetic and busy that God designed them to thrive through rest.   Laura Dugger: (6:55 - 7:04) And will you give a specific example then of something in nature as it's so apparent that it's designed for rest?   Eryn Lynum: (7:04 - 8:28) Definitely. Let's focus on one of those ones that we often think of as really busy, the hummingbird. I opened the book with the analogy of a hummingbird because when you think about a hummingbird, what do you picture in your mind?   Laura Dugger: (7:17 - 7:19) Busy, constant movement in and out.   Eryn Lynum: (7:20 - 8:28) Yeah, exactly. Like they have to visit between 1,000 and 2,000 flowers every day to get all the nectar that they need. And so, they are always like here and there in the next place. And they look like this little thing just zipping through the air and you can't even see their wings beating because they can be up to 70 times a second. It's this blur of motion. And we think about that little hummingbird, and we can sometimes feel like that little hummingbird just zipping from one thing to the next, thinking there's no time to stop.   But the hummingbird does stop. It has a very strategic method of rest called torpor. And torpor is kind of like a mini hibernation where the little bird is going to go into this deep state of rest. It lowers its body temperature by around 50 degrees and becomes completely unresponsive. And this is a regular thing that the hummingbird does, and it enables it to continue its God-given, good, busy, fruitful work. So, it's this picture of, you know, busyness is not bad. God created us for fruitful work, but it's all meant to be sustained through deep, rhythmic, intentional rest.   Laura Dugger: (8:28 - 9:06) I mean, immediately that makes me think of the weeks, even that I'm most productive, I've probably prioritized my sleep the best of it. And if I get great sleep, even if it's extra hours, that doesn't take away from the rest of the day. That probably makes my time even multiplied.   Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I love, you point out so many times how God just clearly designed his creation to enjoy this gift of rest. So, you mentioned some of the nature parts. What about some of the foundational scriptural truths on this topic?   Eryn Lynum: (9:07 - 11:52) Yeah, well, of course, where's the first place that we get the idea of rest in the scripture? Yeah, exactly. So, God completes his work of creation and then he rests and he didn't need to rest. Isaiah 40:28 tells us that he, the creator of the world does not grow weary or tired.   I believe that one reason, and I talk about a couple of them in the book, but I believe that one main reason God rested was to stop and delight. That word Sabbath, it comes from the Hebrew word Shabbat, which can mean to both stop and delight. Like think about God finishing his creative work, bringing, bringing everything from nothing. Ex nihilo is that theological term, everything from nothing. Creating not only the animals and the plants, but the textures and the math and the shapes and the like everything he needed to make these things. And I imagine he just wanted to stop and enjoy it. I can even picture him going through creation and listening to the birds and taking in the colors and the shapes of the clouds.   What a beautiful reminder to us, because I know for myself, I'm so prone to just run from one thing to the next, like check it off the list. What's next? But here God is modeling for us. Stop delight, praise him for what he just allowed us to accomplish, to create, to do before rushing on to the next thing.   And so, we get that first mentioned there at creation, but then think about when Sabbath was actually established, there's a framework, there's a structure it's Exodus 16. And the context here is the Israelites. They're doing what they do. They're wandering and grumbling. They're hangry and God shows mercy to them in the form of quail and manna, but he has very specific instructions for them. He says for six days, you shall gather it, but not on the seventh day. Don't go out. It is a solemn day, a Holy Sabbath to the Lord.   That's the first mention of Sabbath, that word in scripture, but consider the Israelites. They had no context for what God was calling them to do. Surely they could think back to the creation story. Okay. God worked and then rested, but they had very little idea of what he was asking them to do. This was an act of faith. God was saying, stop gathering, trust me.   And this is so hard for us because like we are so prone to gather, gather, gather, do produce work more out of this scarcity mindset. But this picture is showing God is a God of abundance and his math works. When we trust him to be the provider, not ourselves. And we take that risk on rest. He provides abundantly through it.   Laura Dugger: (11:53 - 12:05) Absolutely. And within this gift then of rest, how can rest actually reorder and re-energize our lives?   Eryn Lynum: (12:05 - 14:03) I love this question because throughout the book, we talk a lot about reordering and creating margins. So, we can rest and reprioritizing. You know, it's so interesting when we look at the creation narrative, where we get that first mention of rest, because it's backwards to what we normally think.   Think about this. God created for six days and then he rested. Adam, the first human was created on that sixth day. So, Adam's first full day was a day of arrest, dedicated to rest. And in this, we see that God worked and then rested. But we, humanity, we were always meant to begin from rest.   And you see that even in the Hebrew tradition of a day, their day begins at evening. Their day doesn't start with, let's get up and get to work. Their day starts with, let me go to rest to get ready for the work. So, first we have to reorder our concept of rest, not see it as a reward. Oh, I'm going to work, work, work, get all the things done so that maybe I can rest this weekend or on vacation, or when the kids are out of the house or in retirement, that's backwards to the biblical framework. We are meant to begin from rest.   So, starting there. And as we do that, my family has found after sabbathing for three and a half years now, everything else kind of falls into place. And that happens when you operate by God's design. You know, rest allows us to tend to the most important things. Those deep values, whether like that should be of course, faith and family. So, getting clear on your values is really important. Like what is most important to your family faith? Maybe it's community generosity. Maybe it's physical health, mental health, all these things do better. And we have more time to tend to them when we first make room and space for rest.   Laura Dugger: (14:04 - 16:28) And now a brief message from our sponsor.    With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton and Washington. And with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company.   They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. And make sure you check out their newest offering, the McKinley located in Pekin is a new construction addition to their platinum collection featuring nine foot ceilings, large spacious layouts, beautiful finishes, such as courts, countertops, and garages. You won't want to miss this outstanding new property in Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices.   Check out their brand new luxury property in Peoria Heights, overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on prospect. And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now a brand new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. If you want to become part of their team, contact them about open office positions.   They're also hiring in their maintenance department. So, we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them. Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com, check them out and find your place to call home today.   It never ceases to amaze me how God's economy and his math are just different. Sometimes upside down from ours, but I feel like when you're speaking, it reminds me of Matthew 6:33, “But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.” So, if we actually obey, I think there are so many blessings that we can enjoy from this gift of rest. So, you're talking about our values. Then what can this look like to daily align our activities with our deepest values?   Eryn Lynum: (16:30 - 18:30) Yes, this is an ongoing practice because the enemy is always trying to distract us from what is most important. And that word there is key distract. And so, first we have to learn to identify those distractions, the things that are pulling us away from what is most important, but you know, getting to those core values and on my website, I have, my husband and I developed a family values guide that helps you step by step to really figure out what are our deepest values.   So, that's erinlynum.com/values. But really what it is, is this practice of getting clear on God's best for, for us and for our families and for those around us and, and making sure that we are aligning and realigning because it's going to get out of alignment, those values with God's agenda. You know, a lot of days I just start my day with a restful pause.   I call them in the book, Selah pauses. And I am quite literally, I am sitting before the Lord, my eyes closed and my hands just up in this posture of surrender and receiving. And I will say, Lord, I am surrendering my own agenda, my own expectations for this day. And I want to receive your power, your presence, your peace. And then throughout the day, just taking those checks.   Like I practice these daily Selah pauses and moments of rest because think about Selah in the Psalms. It can mean to pause, to contemplate, to redirect. And we need to do that often because as a day goes on, I think we lose energy and focus. You know, at the beginning of the day, we might feel really like focused. And this is what I'm getting done today. And that can waver like that can wane out as the day goes on. And so, constantly just checking back in.   Okay, Lord, what is it you have for me to do today? And how do I tend to those most important things? But you have to take that restful pause to be able to do that.   Laura Dugger: (18:31 - 18:46) That's good reminder. Okay. So, to check back in with the Lord and then can you give another example of one family and what their value is and how they live that out in their daily life. And maybe even what requires us to say no to.   Eryn Lynum: (18:47 - 20:15) Ooh, that's a fantastic question. Hmm. Can it be for my own family or do you want me to give them love it from your own family?   Okay. I was asked this question recently. Someone asked me, how do you make time to be outside as a family? One of our core family values is to be out exploring in God's creation. And this has been harder in different seasons. And we have two middle schoolers now, you know, we are, we have a lot going on.   And so, it can very quickly happen where at the end of the day, we're like, wow, we really didn't spend much time outdoors today, but how we prioritize this is you do have to say no to other things. So, we're a homeschooling family. And just as an example, it can be very tempting to feel like, am I doing enough? Am I teaching them enough? We need to check off all these boxes and get the lessons done. And it's constantly surrendering that and realizing, you know, I know that our value of being outdoors is important to God. I know that he is meeting my children there. He is meeting me there. He is giving us rest and rejuvenation there.   So, trusting with that, again, going back to the Israelites, stop gathering, stop checking off all the boxes, stop trying to provide and meet your own expectations. And instead stay super focused on what God has called you to and ruthlessly get rid of the rest, anything that's keeping you from that.   Laura Dugger: (20:16 - 20:36) I love that personal example. Thank you for sharing. And how can we also in our own families or in our own life, how can we distinguish which activities are vital for the abundant life in Christ that he offers so that we don't settle for less?   Eryn Lynum: (20:38 - 22:46) I love that you bring up that, that term, the abundant life. In John 10:10, that Christ came, that we might have life and life abundantly overflowing to the fullest, like brimming over is what that word means. And that scripture also says the enemy comes to steal and kill and destroy.   And I believe that one of the enemy's biggest schemes and methods for that is to send us into hurry and hustle mode. And he does that through distraction and discontent. And so, so much of this is pressing back against distraction and discontent and getting back to how God created us to thrive.   And again, I believe that that is through this, this gift of rest. You know, you talk about, you asked about settling for less. The enemy is going to put a million things in our life that would cause us to want to settle for less.   Let me give you an example of him trying to distract us. There was a recent weekend where we were coming up on the weekend, and I had several friends reach out and ask about me doing these things like these different opportunities coming our way. Like, do you want to do this? Do you want to do this? And each of them were for on Saturday and that's usually when our family Sabbaths. And so, I had this tension because these were good things.   It's hard to say no to a good thing, but I kept feeling again and again, the Lord saying, no, rest with your family, rest with your family. And it was so sweet because come Saturday morning, I was out on our back deck sipping coffee with my husband for hours, having incredible conversations, reading great books. The kids are playing in the yard.   Several times I caught myself thinking, I almost said no to this by saying yes to other things. And again, they were good things. This life is full of good things, but God's rest is one of the best things for our families. So, it's learning to be okay with saying no to those good things. So, you can say yes to that better thing.   Laura Dugger: (22:48 - 23:17) Examples are so helpful. And that requires a level of discernment and going to the Lord to ask him, but I'm wondering if you even have a system in place for how you discern that, or is it a gut piece that you follow or any practical ways that each of us can discern what's the right kind of busy that's good. And what's the wrong kind of busy and the things that we want to say no to.   Eryn Lynum: (23:18 - 25:05) Yeah. Going back to, again, busy is not bad. God created us for fruitful work, but I think, you know, when we are following Christ and God's spirit is within us, he's going to give us that sense of this is the right kind of busy.   This is the wrong kind of busy. And practically, you know, if it has any notion of distraction, like if you're doing this thing to just distract you or to procrastinate on better things, if it has a note of busyness, you know, some people will be like, well, some people, the enemy makes us want to think that sitting on our phones can be restful because you're not technically doing much of anything, but that distraction is stealing God's true gift of rest for us.   And so, you know, our family, as we practice Sabbath throughout the week, I know that come Saturday, we have a full day of rest. And sometimes it's tempting to add a little work into there, to let it seep out of those edges of the work week and kind of into our Sabbath. And as you practice this more and more and begin just ruthlessly protecting that time, whether it's a full day, whether you start with a half day, God is going to make you more sensitive to those things. Because sometimes I'll like work it out in my mind, like, oh, this isn't work. And really like it's definitely, it's definitely trying to serve my work during the work week.   And God is saying, no, like step away from that and allow me to refresh and rejuvenate your spirit so that when you go back to the work, you do so much more powerfully energized, restful, and ready to do that work to the very best of your ability with God's power.   Laura Dugger: (25:07 - 25:36) That reminds me of a previous guest I'll link to. He did two episodes, but Jeff Henderson just said he's a pastor too. And he said, sometimes the most spiritual thing you can do is take a nap.   I would agree on that, which you've kind of been sharing a little glimpses of your family's experience with Sabbath, but let's just zero in on Sabbath and I'll just try and go through a series of questions. But first what's the importance of Sabbath?   Eryn Lynum: (25:37 - 26:55) Well, first God commands it. Like if God commanded it, then surely it's important, but that can also sometimes cause us to get a little legalistic about it. What is it? What isn't it? Well, it is meant to be a gift, meant to be a blessing. It's meant to empower us and what God created us for and calls us to.   And so, keeping that just center, this is meant to be a gift, but we see it all throughout scripture, the importance of rest and rest in God's design. It's celebration. Like it's not idleness. It's not doing nothing. Although sometimes like that's the most beneficial way that we can rest. Like you talked about a nap.   I love a good nap on Sabbath, but also it can be energizing activities, inspiring activities. I also love a good long walk on Sabbath. Sometimes I love cooking with fresh ingredients and working on a meal during Sabbath because I don't get much opportunity to do that during the week. Sometimes I love going out and working in the garden because that's life giving and I don't have time to do that throughout the week. And so, getting back to this concept, this idea of Sabbath and rest are celebratory. Like when we do it well as a family, it feels like a mini vacation every week.   Laura Dugger: (26:56 - 27:15) Ooh, I love that. My husband said that before about date night and I connect with that, that it's a little mini reprieve, a mini vacation each week. But then that leads me to the question because I bet so many people share their Sabbath activities with you. What do families actually do on this day of rest?   Eryn Lynum: (27:16 - 31:46) Yeah, that's a great question. And first I'll say that it should look different from family to family. We are all in unique seasons. We have different stories, different scenarios. Again, if you can't start with the full day, now I strongly believe strive and work toward that full day. That's God's design.   And we've seen the most blessing from that. But if you have to start smaller with a half day with four hours, start there. So, it's going to look different. If you have newborns, like a newborn child, it's going to look different and that's okay. No going into it, that it's going to be messy. Hebrews says strive toward rest, work toward rest. It's so counter-cultural. We have to work toward it. So, just going in, knowing these things is very helpful.   It's also going to grow, adapt, and change throughout the seasons. Our family has seen that. But a typical Sabbath for our family right now is we follow the traditional Friday evening to Saturday evening for the most part. Some people ask me, why not Sunday? Isn't Sunday the Sabbath? Well, for us, Sunday is set aside for church community and fellowship and corporate worship. And that's so life-giving to our souls. But by the time I get home from church and I'm making lunch for the family, like I'm not rested physically. So, we needed a separate day set aside for rest.   And so, Friday afternoon, we start preparing where we're going to band together and just pick up the house, get it ready, wash all the dishes and just start preparing our hearts, our minds, our bodies, our home for rest. And then we start Friday evening with communion as a family, just breaking bread and celebrating what Christ did on our behalf. And again, that, that idea of celebrate, and this marks it as special. Okay. We're heading into Sabbath. Some families will like light a white candle for Sabbath, just really marking it. And then we have, we toast to the week. So, we'll pour sparkling juice and just toast and say, “Hey, what did we see God do this week?” Like going back to that idea of stop and delight, we are setting a hard stop to the week. We are delighting. What did we see God do? What did he help us overcome? What can we thank Him for from this past week? And then we'll do an easy dinner. Think tacos, take and bake pizza spaghetti.   We use paperware, which is a bit controversial since I work as a master naturalist, but it has been an easy button for Sabbath that I'm not worried about like dishes piling up on the counter. And then we'll, we'll wrap it up with a sweet treat like ice cream and then our kids go to bed, or they'll listen to audio books. Audio books have been massive for our Sabbath because they're screen-free because we do put away all screens and work like devices on Sabbath, but they can listen to good books.   And my husband and I, we read, like people ask me, when do you find time to read? You don't find time to read. You have to make time to read. And for us, that's on the Sabbath mostly. And then Saturday we sleep in, we get up pretty early during the week and the kids just know like you don't wake mom and dad on the Sabbath. Like that's their day to sleep in.   Again, if you have a newborn or young children, that's gonna look different and that's okay. But for us, that's the season that we're in and our kids, they'll make themselves first breakfast and then eventually we'll get up and we'll join them for a second breakfast or some Sabbath. I don't want to cook at all. And so, it's just take and forage. And you know, I usually have a grocery delivery the day before or go to the grocery store and make sure we just have a ton of good stuff in the house. So, no one's, you know, everyone has what they need.   Then the rest of the day, it is just a day of delight. Reading books, playing games, being out in creation, visiting with neighbors, having great conversations together. Sabbath is this space where you get to do all those things during the week that you're like, oh, I wish I had time for that and you just don't get to them. Like recently my daughter during the week, she really wanted me, she's seven. She wanted me to sit down and watercolor paint with her, which I love doing, but it was a really busy week. And I just didn't have the space.   And so, I told her like, “Hey, I would love to do that. Can we do that on Sabbath?” And she was so happy with that answer. And come that Sabbath a few days later, she remembered, she came up to me. She's like, mom, it's time to paint. And she got all the supplies, and we went and sat outside at our picnic table and painted for the afternoon.   You know, Sabbath does so much for me as a mom to remove that guilt of the things I don't feel like I have time for because I know, and my kids know, Sabbath is coming and that's our day to be together and do those things.   Laura Dugger: (31:47 - 31:57) Hmm. Okay. That makes me curious. Then to how much of a vote does everyone in the family get for what Sabbath will look like?   Eryn Lynum: (31:57 - 34:02) Oh, that is a great question. No one's ever phrased it to me like that before. I love that. What we found that's been important to keep in mind is that we all individually find different things, restful and inspiring. I'll give you an example. One Sabbath, my husband, especially in the spring, he loves to work in the yard on Sabbath because he spends most of his week. He runs a construction company on the computer or on the phone. And so, in the spring, he wants to be out in the yard and trimming his fruit trees and just working with God's creation. And so, one Sabbath he comes and he has like the clippers in his hand and he's like, “Hey, let's go work on the yard.”   And I was like, that's great. You do that. I'm going to go read my book in the hammock. And I fell asleep for two hours while he worked on the yard. And so, a lot of this is being okay that yes, a lot of it's going to be together. Like I talked about, we did, we do communion together and we do meals together. And a lot of times we'll be out on a hike together. That's a favorite Sabbath activity. But a lot of times we're also doing separate activities.   The kids are enjoying their books or their audio books or their painting or their, uh, visiting the neighbor kids. And my husband and I are reading books on the back deck. And so, it's okay that there's going to be some together time and some separate time, you know, just being flexible with it. Like our first year of Sabbath, we went, we had to go like hardcore. We had to learn to stay. I think about in the book, I talk about the word abide meno in the Greek and it can mean to stay, to dwell, to remain.   So, we've spent our first year of Sabbath, not getting in the car. We stayed home and learned to just be home together. And after that year, we started to miss our time. We live in Colorado, missing our time hiking in the mountains. And so, we changed it. We said, okay, well, toward the end of Sabbath Saturday afternoon, Saturday evening, let's go hike or let's go have a picnic in the wilderness. And just being open to that, that God's going to change you as a family and change you individually. And just growing up in a Sabbath practice together.   Laura Dugger: (34:03 - 34:20) I like the freedom that you're communicating there. And then when you mentioned the neighborhood kids, it makes me curious. Do you encourage community for some of those who recharge with other people? Would you recommend Sabbath thing with others or just keeping it your family?   Eryn Lynum: (34:21 - 36:16) Absolutely. We love inviting others into Sabbath. And it actually started with, we started our Sabbath practice. It was so sweet because God convinced us to do this. And then our first Sabbath was on January 1st. That happened to be the first Saturday that we did it. So, it was like this fresh start. And right around that time, we had moved to a new neighborhood. And our neighbors near us are Messianic Jews.   And they follow Shabbat, the traditional Shabbat. And they invited us into that. It was the sweetest evening, and they have children, young children, like we do. So, like there's chaos and there's mess. And then there's sweet times of singing together and scripture reading. And they follow it much more the traditional method than our family has.   But it was so sweet to be invited into that and to get a picture for how to invite others into this rest. And so, absolutely, we encourage, especially our kids having friends over. And we do usually ask parents, hey, can you drop them off? And then we can bring them back maybe like later that day toward the end of our Sabbath. Or if you want to come pick them up. Because again, we like to just stay home if we can.   But our kids are to the point now too where they can ride their bikes over to friends' houses. And we're fine with that. They might not be home on Sabbath once in a while. It's not a regular thing. But they're getting fed. And we know that the people they're with are people who share our values, people that we do life together.   We love having bonfires in the backyard on Sabbath. Now one thing I have to be careful of is I don't want to invite people over and feel like I need to host or clean up first. And so, for one, we don't have full families over a whole lot on Sabbath because I just don't want any sort of self-induced, self-imposed pressure.   But sometimes it's so much fun to just be like, hey, let's go meet at a park and have a picnic dinner. Or let's have a family over and do a bonfire. Just making sure that you're keeping it really, really simple if you are going to incorporate community.   Laura Dugger: (36:17 - 37:54) Guess what? We are no longer an audio-only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube, and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.   Some of these things, like you said, “They do require forethought where you have the groceries coming or certain things in place. And I think you even refer to it as a sacred striving.” So, it's important for us to learn more about that. And here's a quick story.   I just remember we've moved states quite a few times in marriage. But when I was a young mom, there was a mom in the next season of life, and she had more kids than we did. And we went to church together, and she was just like, “Oh, we learned about Sabbath. That's not a thing for moms with multiples.” And I always wrestled with that, and I love her. She's a wonderful person. Maybe she's even changed her stance on that, so it's not to speak ill of her. But I do think that we can struggle with that because that's not an actual truth. I do think that's a message from the enemy.   So, I guess this is a two-part question. How do we protect ourselves from buying into a storyline that is not true that may hold us back from Sabbath? And then also, what is kind of the both and? It's both restful, and it requires a lot of work up front to make this a reality.   Eryn Lynum: (37:55 - 41:19) It does, and knowing that, that it is going to take work, but God's going to bless it. Think about Isaiah 55:10-11, that says, “Just like the rain and the snow go forth and produce life and bring forth life from the land, so my work goes out and does not return void or empty. It produces that which I sent it out for.”.   That is true for Sabbath and rest because, again, we find it all throughout scripture. So, know that it's going to take hard work, but God will not allow it to return void. He will bless our efforts as we step into His design that He created us for.   I talk about in the book a few ways that you have to prepare mentally, physically, and spiritually. So, mentally, for me, I have to just totally remove anything mentally that's going to distract me from rest. So, I own a business, and so a lot of my work is on the computer and on the phone. I will answer, so this is like Friday, I'll answer any lingering emails, those ones that are going to be on my mind if I don't get to them. And then I put an away message on my email. So, if anyone emails me on our Sabbath, it sends an automatic reply that says, hey, thanks for your message. My family's resting. It has a little blurb in there about Sabbath. I'll get back to you in the new week.   That gives me permission to not even look at my email. In fact, people expect that I'm not looking at my email if I'm keeping my word. And so, this has just freed me up mentally to step away, and then I literally put my laptop in my closet.   With my phone, I set it to a Sabbath mode, and you can create these different focus modes if you have a smartphone, so that I can only receive messages from my mom in case of emergency. And our people, our friends, they all know this now. Like, oh, I'm not going to hear back from Erin because it's Saturday for the most part.   And so, these little things that you might just need to mentally prepare yourself. And then physically, that goes back to preparing our home. So, this is not a deep clean that we do prior to Sabbath. It's just tending to the things that are going to distract me if we don't get to them beforehand. So, again, washing all the dishes and having the kitchen clean, vacuuming. Like, that's like just a hack to make the house feel clean is I feel like it's clean if it's vacuumed.   So, just these little things, and then physically also doing that grocery order. And I have a free Sabbath guide on my website, erinlynum.com/family-sabbath. And it walks you through creating your Sabbath grocery list so that every week you have what you need in the house. These little things that truly make it, Sabbath easier and more successful.   And then preparing spiritually, going into this, like a lot of times I'll know, okay, I'm going to study this on Sabbath. For our first year, I just had like this stack of books on Sabbath that I would work through on our Sabbath. Right now, I am parked in Genesis 1 and have been for weeks. And so, just preparing spiritually, you know, this is a time of communion with our creator, with our heavenly father. And so, just having an idea of, you know, this is how I want to spend time delighting in God on the Sabbath.   That might be a long walk. That might be time in the word or time of worship but making sure that that is a keystone part of your Sabbath practice.   Laura Dugger: (41:20 - 41:45) And, you know, it really is possible. I just think so many of us celebrate holidays and we do the same thing where we plan, prepare, prioritize ahead of time so that we can delight in that day. And what a gift to get to do that weekly. So, with all of these amazing benefits, why do we still resist God's design for rest?   Eryn Lynum: (41:46 - 43:00) Because we live in a fallen world, broken by sin, and the enemy wants to do everything he can to keep us from this. This is God's design and our faith, and our souls and our families flourish in this design. And so, the enemy is going to do whatever he can to keep us from it.   He's going to insert fear. He's going to insert distraction. He's going to insert doubt. You know, when we started this practice coming up to it, I was thinking, there's no way, like how are we going to get everything done in one last day a week, all these doubts. And yet what we found so quickly is that as we took this step of faith, we quickly became so much more productive and effective and creative during the work week, because we were starting from rest and following God's design.   We resist this because it is counter-cultural. Everything in society is set up against us doing this and succeeding in this. So, again, going and knowing that our war is not against flesh and blood. It is against the powers of the spheres, like things unseen. The enemy is against us, but God is on our side. And as we step into his design, he's going to make much of it.   Laura Dugger: (43:01 - 43:12) Okay. So, if we are convinced and we want to give this a try, what is a practical first step to just obeying this and receiving this gift of rest?   Eryn Lynum: (43:13 - 45:23) Yeah, super practical here. Two first steps. The first is to set a day and time. Now you're not committing to this forever. And again, if you, if a big hesitancy here is I can't do a full day. Okay. Work and pray toward that but start smaller. If it's four hours on a Wednesday, guard that time. Ruthlessly guard it. Don't let anything be written on the schedule besides that.   So, set a day in time and then write two lists. This is going back to the idea of stop and delight, right? Your stop list. These are things that send you into hurry and hustle mode, things that are related to normal work, things that feel heavy. Some of them are so important.   Again, our work is important, but this is going to be things like devices, media, regular work, answering emails, phone calls. It might be driving in traffic. It might be spending money. Write down those things that feel heavy. That's your stop list. The things you're not going to entertain on that day or that time.   And then write your delight list. This might be hard at first because what I've found with myself, with many of us is that we forget what we delight in but causes that childlike sense of play and wonder. This is learning to be human again, coming back to those things.   So, it might be playing music or listening to music, working with fresh ingredients, reading a good book, writing by hand, watercolor painting, going for a walk. What we find is that a lot of people who spend time during the week in front of a computer want to be outdoors on the Sabbath, but people who run a landscaping company might want to be inside with a great book. So, just writing down those things that are, again, those things that you think during the week, oh, I really wish I could get to that.   Only we don't. Those are your delight list. So, now you have a day and a time. You know what you're not going to do, what you're setting aside, even physically, that should probably most definitely be your phone. Stick it in a drawer. I have my Sabbath drawer where I put my phone, and then you know what you're going to do and spend that day on.   Laura Dugger: (45:24 - 45:47) That's so good. And for those who have been listening for a while, they could even put their phone in their RO box, and I could link to that episode as well with Joey Odom. That's incredible about where our phone could be in its right place.   But Eryn, are there any other practical benefits that we might be missing out on that you've seen as a result of this Sabbath rest?   Eryn Lynum: (45:48 - 49:44) One of my favorite benefits is how it unlocks our creativity. Whether you work in a career or position that you consider creative or not, God designed all of us to be creative, to produce. And so, what I have found is that my work, my work is very in that creative sphere, writing books, creating podcast lessons for children.   It's very creative work. And I've found that Sabbath is this day where God gives my mind rest. It's so incredible thinking about how he wired our brains to thrive through rest, and science points to that that a restful mind is better at problem-solving, connecting ideas, remembering details.   And so, as my mind is allowed to rest on Sabbath, and I'm out on a walk in nature, or I'm reading a good book, or I'm writing by hand, when it comes time to sit down at the computer Monday morning, I am ready. I am flowing with ideas. They are there.   And I'll give you an example. This one isn't from Sabbath. It's from one of my daily rest rhythms that I call Selah Pause, and that's a walk in the morning. And this might be a little controversial, but this is not an easy stroll. I have my rucking pack on, and I'm trekking up a hill, which is not physically restful, of course, but it's mentally restful for me. I love it.   And so, it was in January, so it's frigid out, and everything's covered in snow, and I'm in all my snow gear, and I'm trudging up this hill. And at the time, I was dealing with a problem in my podcast where it was a good problem. We had spent the month teaching about God's designs in the human body. So, we had taught kids about God's designs in cells and DNA and the heart and the brain, but I didn't want to just let this series end. I wanted to wrap it up in some powerful way, and I didn't know how. So, I could have stayed home that morning and hashed this out and been at the computer, and how should I end this thing?   Instead, I went on this walk, and God just dropped this idea in my mind. And it was this idea. He said, ask the kids how they are wonderfully made. And that was the top. The theme was wonderfully made. And so, I put it out there to my email list. When I got back from that walk, I said, hey, I would love to hear how you kids believe you are wonderfully made by the creator. And I opened up this little voice mailbox on our website, and I didn't know if anyone would respond. And then I'm like, what if they don't? And then I don't know what to do because I said I'm going to do this thing.   I tell you, message after message came in from children from ages. I think it was three or four up to 14 from all over the world. And I was weeping as I edited that episode. I had planned to add something at the beginning and the end to build out this episode. I didn't do that because it was, I believe it's 22 minutes straight of children saying, this is my name.   I'm five years old. I live in England and I'm wonderfully made because God made me to read well or God made me fast. Or one little boy shared, he said, I know I'm wonderfully made because my mama lost a baby before me. And I'm here and I'm wonderfully made. And I'm weeping.   And this idea that God gave me, I would have missed it if I hadn't taken that pause to be out in his creation walking that day. And so, that's a very roundabout way to get back to your question of what are the other benefits? We hear from God when we make time for rest. And if we keep just rushing and hurrying, I'm concerned that we are walking by so many opportunities to hear from his spirit and to let him unlock that potential within us.   Laura Dugger: (49:45 - 50:22) Oh, I love that. And I'm even reminded of one other thing that you write in your book that today, one way we can practically experience his original design of rest is by stepping outside. And you're full of tips and ideas like that, but I so appreciate those stories.   So, you've equipped us with this foundation of rest and ways that we can prepare for it, how we can enjoy and delight in it. And so now, Eryn, how can we reflect well on our rhythms of work and rest?   Eryn Lynum: (50:25 - 53:19) So, much of this is reflection. So, much of this is stopping to consider where God is at work in our lives, where we need to recalibrate, where we need to realign, where we need to step back into his pace because we're trying to run ahead of him. And one way that we can see it, you know, like you might ask the question, am I at rest? Even me sometimes on Sabbath, I'm like, am I doing this right? Like, is this actually restful? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing?   I think we can answer that question by the fruit in our lives, the fruit inside of us that God is producing and the fruit that we are producing. So, one thing I kind of sum up the book on is this question of, are you growing in truth and love? Because the enemy, when he gets us away from God's rest and into hustle, into distraction and hurry, we are not fully experiencing God.   And so, our levels of experiencing his love and offering it to others is going to suffer. Our experience of hearing his truth and living that truth out in our lives is going to suffer. And so, the opposite is true that as we live at rest, this whole concept of abide, that is living at rest, not just these rest practices, but living at rest in God's restful presence, we are going to be producing more love and more truth.   So, that's like a key visual. And then I love on that idea of abide. We spent a whole week on abide in the book and, you know, John chapter 15 being the abide passage. And what we see there is there's these 11 mentions of that word abide. And they all refer to us abiding in Christ, Christ abiding in us, God's word abiding in us. So, all this connectivity between Christ and God and us and his word.   But then it's, I think it's verse 16. There's a different mention of meno, abide. And it says that he wants us to go out and produce fruit that abides. So, this is different. It relates to our fruit and that word abide. Yes, it can mean dwell, remain, stay, but it can also mean continue and endure.   God created us to produce fruit and fruit that endures. Doesn't rot, doesn't fade, but continues into eternity. So, we can look at, okay, am I personally in my spirit? Am I growing in truth and love? Because God's spirit actually has the space to minister to me when I rest. And is that rest directly affecting the fruit of my life?   These are key things that we can look at and ask to see. Are we truly living from God's rest?   Laura Dugger: (53:19 - 53:53) I love questions so much. And that's so good to reflect then on the fruit that's being produced. And a mentor many years ago said, you never reap what you sow in the same season. So, that's a great place to even begin just reflecting. What did we do in the past season and what fruit are we reaping now? And where do we want to go then from here?   And one place we could go from here after this chat is to follow you. And you've mentioned your podcast. Do you want to elaborate on all the places that you're available?   Eryn Lynum: (53:54 - 55:03) Yes, thank you. So, the new book, The Nature of Rest is available wherever you get your books, along with my second book, Rooted in Wonder: Nurturing Your Family's Faith Through God's Creation. And that's all about taking our kids or grandkids, the next generation outside and reconnecting the dots between creation and creator. Really returning nature study and time outdoors to its proper place as theology and the study of God.   So, those are available anywhere, including Amazon or my website, which is my name, erynlynum.com. And then my podcast is Nat Theo, short for Natural Theology. It's nature lessons rooted in the Bible. It's a podcast for kids and families where we dive deep into science and all the design and intelligence we see in creatures and plants. And we tie it all back to biblical truth so that our kids are learning science and theology at the same time.   And that's available on any podcast platform, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, right on my website, erinlynum.com, as well as YouTube. We actually provide visuals so you can watch what you're learning about as well.   Laura Dugger: (55:04 - 55:22) So, incredible. We will add links to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Eryn, you may already be familiar. We're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Eryn Lynum: (55:24 - 56:34) I love this question. And this is one that actually I was like, oh, I'm not asked this much. I'm going to have to really think deeply on this one.   It's get outside every day. That seems so simple, even though it's not really simple in practicality. But one thing I've learned through rest and through time outdoors is that 10 minutes matters. Like if you think I don't have time for this, but you have a 10 minute slot, go for a walk and see how God just communes with your spirit. Even in the dead of winter, if you live somewhere cold, like if it's safe to do so. For me, I had to buy like the best pair of snow pants I could find because I used to really dislike the winter. And I would just become like really down in those winter months.   And so, God just convinced me, don't go outside every single day if it's for 10 minutes. And then pretty often he just extends that. Like I think I'm going out for 10 minutes. And sure enough, I'm like playing with my kids outside. It's much longer.   But yeah, as best as you can, just prioritize that. If you have to do it first thing in the morning to make sure it happens, go for a walk and watch the sunrise. And God is going to minister to your soul through his creation.   Laura Dugger: (56:35 - 56:54) Amen. Amen. That is so good.   And this conversation has been so rich. Eryn, it is just very clear you have filled up on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you have just poured out goodness and love and truth for all of us, all over all of us today. So, thank you for all that you shared. And thank you for being my guest.   Eryn Lynum: (56:55 - 57:03) Thank you. Thank you so much for that encouragement. That means a whole lot to me. So, thank you. And for the opportunity for a great conversation.   Laura Dugger: (57:03 - 1:03:10) I really enjoyed it.    One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Release: Better Together with Jon and Jolene Rocke   "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Mark 10:9 (KJV)   *Transcription Below*   Questions and Topics We Discuss: What are you so thankful you did in every season of marriage, from newlyweds to empty nesters that you see the pay off now in the present? How has grace and forgiveness benefited your relationship? What advice do you have for all of us married couples as we seek to grow as one, rather than grow parallel or even grow apart from one another?   Jon and Jolene Rocke are my local friends and my guests for today. They work side by side at Peoria Rescue ministries, and they have so many lovely gifts of leadership and hospitality and teaching, but the topic we are going to focus on today is marriage. From the first time we met, Mark and I adored them and appreciated their sweet bond with one another, and I'm so thrilled to introduce you to them today. Here's our chat:   Jon and Jolene both grew up in Christian homes and accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord at the age of 15.  Jon is from Morton and Jolene from Elgin, IL. They met on a bus ride to a Youth Gathering in Minnesota.  They sat together and talked the whole way home about life, the Bible and God.  Jon played his guitar and sang John Denver songs and their match was made with “Sunshine on my Shoulders”.   They married at the age of 18 and had their first child, Janelle, at 19.  They left for Grace college in Winona Lake, Indiana with an 18 month old toddler in tow and had another baby girl born while in college named Jaime.  At graduation in 1984, they were accepted to Trinity Seminary to follow Jon's desire to be a Professor of Theology, but became pregnant with their son, Jordan, which changed every plan and sent them back home to build up their finances.   They came back to Morton and worked in the Family Business and felt called to stay.  They raised their 3 children in Morton working in the business until God loosened their tent pegs and called them to Peoria Rescue Ministries in 2017. Jon is the Executive Director and Jolene is the Ministry Ambassador.  They are thankful to be working side-by-side in this new season of their marriage.   Jon and Jolene will celebrate their 44th wedding anniversary and have 3 married children and have 10 grandchildren. Their son Jordan and his wife Jessica live in Sandpoint, Idaho with their 3 Kids.  Their daughter Janelle and husband Ryan live in Kennesaw, Georgia with their 3 children.  And their daughter Jaime and her husband Jonathan live here in Morton with their 4 children.   Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce: 5 Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller   At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.   Five Love Languages The 5 Love Languages of Teenagers A Teen's Guide to the 5 Love Languages   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website.   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 2:05) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.   Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.   If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources. We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living.   And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.   Jon and Jolene Rocke are my local friends and my guests for today. They work side by side at Peoria Rescue Ministries, and they have so many lovely gifts of leadership and hospitality and teaching. But the topic we're going to focus on today is marriage. From the first time we met, Mark and I adored them so much and really appreciated their sweet bond with one another. And I'm so thrilled to get to introduce you to them today.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jon and Jolene.   Jon Rocke: (2:05 - 2:06) We're so happy to be here, Laura. Thanks so much for having us.   Laura Dugger: (2:07 - 2:43) Well, it's truly my pleasure. And will the two of you just start by giving us a little background on how you came to know Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?   Jolene Rocke: (2:07 - 2:43) Yeah, I grew up in the Chicago area in a suburb and in a Christian home. So, I was very thankful to know about God. And I came to know Him as my personal Savior at 15. And so, then I really had a complete change. And from then on, I have just followed Him as close as I can. So very thankful for Jesus.   Jon Rocke: (2:44 - 2:59) Yeah, and I was actually 15 as well. Became overwhelmed with my sin at 15 and knew that I did not know Christ. And so, since then, a very imperfect following, but glad to be part of the family.   Laura Dugger: (3:00 - 3:15) Well, and that's awesome that both of you were 15 and never knew that piece of your story. But I'm assuming you were living in different places. So then how did the two of you meet and fall in love?   Jolene Rocke: (3:15 - 4:40) That is such a funny story. Because I, along with a friend of mine from Elgin, jumped on a Morton bus going to Morris, Minnesota. And they picked us up in Rockford. And we got on the bus, went to the same youth gathering for our church denomination. And on the way home from that weekend, we sat on the bus the whole way home and talked.   And Jon had what was so interesting to me, a study Bible. And I had never seen a study Bible in my life. And so, he showed me what an open Bible was with notes at the bottom. And because I came to Christ at 15 and started Bible study on my own with just a spiral notebook, a pen, and my Bible, I was fascinated by this Bible.   And I heard from Morton girls that he carried his Bible everywhere. So, he was kind of different than the rest of the guys. And I told them that's the kind of guy I was looking for. And then to top it all off, he had a guitar. And he sang John Denver songs to me. So, Sunshine on My Shoulders, I think, really made me happy.   Laura Dugger: (4:40 - 4:45) Just knowing your family music is such a big part of worship. Yeah. That's part of what wooed you, too.   Jon Rocke: (4:40 - 5:35) Yeah. Part of the crazy story is that it's a long trip. It's like a 12-hour trip. And so, we left Morton at like 5 in the morning. And so, I'm sleeping on the floor. And we picked these girls up. And I wake up, and I'm like, “Oh, an angel just got on the bus.” That's what I thought. And she was like, she didn't really have anything to do with me the whole weekend till the way home.   But we have a lot of fun with that story. And so that was the beginning. I think I sent flowers the next day. And we began, actually, a very long-distance, over-the-phone relationship, getting to know each other. And we actually went through, I think, the Book of Romans together over the course of, I guess, a year. And then got married. And we were pretty young.   Jolene Rocke: (5:36 - 6:47) Yeah. We met when Jon was just 16. And then two weeks after his 18th birthday, we got married. And I'm a year older. So, it was very young. But we are so thankful because we're going to celebrate 44 years of marriage here.   So, God knit us together, I think, through the fact that we were both really pursuing the Lord individually. And then we were so happy to find somebody like that. I thought I was headed to be a missionary in Africa at the time I met him. And he was, like, searching, too. But both all out pursuit of Christ. And so, I think that's what knit our hearts together. And it didn't hurt that he sent flowers the next day.   Laura Dugger: (6:47 - 7:15) It was a wise move. But I love it because the two of you have really grown up together. Totally. You've been meeting as teens. When you reflect back, what are you so thankful that you did in every season of marriage, from newlyweds to now empty nesters, that you're getting to see the payoff now in the present?   Jon Rocke: (6:49 - 8:10) Yeah, I think sometimes you are intentional. And we've tried to be intentional. But I think sometimes God brings circumstances into your life that sort of force something. So not only were we young when we got married, but nine months after we got married, yeah, we had Janelle, our oldest daughter.   And so, we had to realize we still needed time together. And we had a little baby. It began, I think, an intentional course for us to carve out time. So, you know, we put our kids to bed early. It was a big deal for us as parents that we had our time after they went to bed because we didn't get a whole lot of time.   And other little silly things, the kids didn't get to sit in between us at church. That was the rule. You can sit on either side of mom and dad, but you can't sit in between us. And so that was just, you know, again, a little thing that we did. And some things we had to learn. I'm more of a night person. Jolene's more of a morning person. Part of that, we had to learn at one point, you know, let's make sure we prioritize going to bed together. Just so, again, we had that time. So, there's been all sorts of different steps along the way that we've tried to prioritize each other.   Jolene Rocke: (8:10 - 9:01) So the two words that come to my mind with regard to that are compromise. You're two different people, and you're suddenly thrust together into a home situation. Well, that took compromise on both of our parts. So that's kind of sacrifice, too. That means he doesn't get to stay up until midnight if we want to go to bed together, and I'm going to have to push myself to stay up later just so that we can make a common bedtime.   So, compromise, and then I think the other major thing to me would be communication, because we didn't have a relationship before marriage where we were in the same town and could see each other all the time or go on dates. We didn't have that. So, we had letter writing. This is 43 years ago. So, we had letter writing daily.   Jon Rocke: (9:02 - 9:04) Some of us were daily. He was daily.   Jolene Rocke: (9:05 - 9:11) I wasn't quite as good at letter writing every day, but I was in college by now.   Jon Rocke: (9:11 - 9:13) You were still in high school. Now we know.   Jolene Rocke: (9:14 - 10:15) But I think the communication factor, that actually helped us because, yes, I realize face-to-face dating is a great thing, but to not be able to do that and have nothing but be able to write your day out, what happened during your day, you're learning to tell the other person what happened in your day, how you felt about that, what your dreams, your goals are. So, it started, to me and us, I think a great foundation of communication.   Laura Dugger: (10:15 - 10:30) And is it Song of Songs, I believe, 5:16, where part of it says, “This is my lover, this is my friend,” and that's what I'm hearing, is that you were really deepening your friendship in those early years and that from witnessing your lives, it seems that has only continued.   Jolene Rocke: (10:30 - 10:35) Yeah, exactly. We are so thankful. It's a very different story than most people, but we're so thankful.   Jon Rocke: (10:16 - 10:39) I think also, for us, it was Genesis 2 in the sense that you need to leave everything else and cleave together. We were young. It's hard to believe. When we look back, we think about our kids and our grandkids and would we want that for them, and yet I don't think we'd trade it for the world.   Laura Dugger: (10:40 - 10:52) I love that. And what encouragement do you have for others then who are also wanting to build a foundation of remaining connected and intimate in all the aspects of their own marriage?   Jon Rocke: (10:53 - 12:07) That's one of those things about being intentional. Matthew 19:6, where Christ repeats that adage from Genesis 2, that God created them male and female, they need to leave mother and father and cleave together, but then he adds this, “and no one should tear that apart.” And we often think about that, I think, as other people tearing that apart, and that's true.   But the same goes, we can tear ourselves apart if we're not going to make sure everything else, all other distractions, because they're going to continually come, right? And again, we had kids so early that I think we knew we had to carve that time out, because if we wouldn't have, I'm not sure how that would have worked. We would have been so consumed early. But career, we've just known that we've had to say, if we don't make sure that we're the priority, it's so easy to get lost in all the other things of life that are not bad. Kids are not bad, they're great. And your careers and your work, that's all good. But it can be the enemy of great in a marriage.   Jolene Rocke: (12:07 - 12:32) Yeah, we talked about the fact that this is how we started all those years ago. But a pursuit of God individually actually enhances a pursuit of God together. I'm still in the Word individually. Jon's still in the Word individually. But we also then read and pray together every night. So just this pursuit of God.   Jon Rocke: (12:32 - 13:06) But that wasn't something we did from day one either. I mean, that was a learned scenario where one time we were just kind of convicted of the fact that together we're not taking time to pray and read together. And so, then we just made that part of routine at night. So then again, that made us say we're going to go to bed together. Because if we didn't, then we didn't have that time. That opportunity to pray together and read together has just become a connection point that we wouldn't want to trade.   Laura Dugger: (13:07 - 13:55) I think that's encouraging in so many ways because you've grown into this. And I think for anyone just starting out, it's so helpful to see you didn't let excuses get in the way. It reminds me of a supervisor in college who said, “If you want something done, give it to a busy person.” And I think in a unique way with you two being launched into parenthood nine months after you were married, you didn't have the luxury of being frivolous with your time. And you chose intentionality. And it seems like God really has blessed that and honored it.   Jolene Rocke: (13:55 - 14:05) Yeah and continued it to this day. You're very right. We continue to be busy. And that's still the struggle to combat that with intentional time together. So definitely.   Jon Rocke: (13:55 - 14:31) You talk about seasons in our lives. So, I had to have a hip replacement. So, from like 23 till I had that at 50, I couldn't take long walks. But now we get to walk together, which is a huge privilege. And so, I always think about it. I'm not into exercise to exercise, but I'm into being together. And exercise is a thing we can do together. The other thing we did in our, I guess it was on our 25th. We got a tandem bike. And we love doing our tandem bike.   Jolene Rocke: (14:31 - 16:21) But he wanted a tandem bike right when we got married. And I kept saying, no, I didn't really want to sit on the back and have no control. And not be able to see when I thought I should break or when I wanted to turn.   So, this is something that I often encourage women that are moving into the emptiness season of life. I was driving to church alone. And the Lord really impressed on me that the extreme lavish amount of love that as a homemaker I gave to my children who were now gone, I needed to transfer that to my husband.   I've always loved Jon first and best. But I needed to take even the time commitment. What could I do to show Jon I loved him lavishly the way I tried to my children? So that was a time thing for me. And it was like get a tandem bike. So, I was willing then to get the tandem and sit in the back. And you really do; you're called the stoker. You really do work in the back. You don't just sit there. You work. But I no longer had the control of that. And I am learning to see butterflies land on corn stalks. And I actually love our tandem bike. But God had to grow me. And that was part of my several gifts to him in emptiness period that has helped us keep a strong marriage, I think.   Laura Dugger: (16:21 - 16:30) And isn't that interesting how there's a gift in it for you? Like you offer this sacrifice and yet he's teaching you new things.   Jon Rocke: (16:21 - 16:22) I love it, yeah.   Laura Dugger: (16:23 - 16:45) What would you two say is the biggest personality difference that you've recognized in your own marriage?   Jolene Rocke: (16:45 - 17:22) We just had a personality test yesterday. We have an executive team leadership at Peoria Rescue Ministries, and we had to do personality tests again. And that always is quite glaring to see how different we are. So, we're on two ends of the spectrum. But we can encourage any marriage that that can work and actually maybe be in your favor as long as you work hard at it. So, it just takes work and communication to say, you're very logical thinking, I'm very emotional, so how do we come together then in situations where I'm flustered and he's calm because he at times looks as if you don't care.   Jon Rocke: (17:22 - 17:53) Right, yeah, it can be that. You're highly relational. I'm definitely more process. And I think you're going to learn quickly, especially if you have kids, that all your kids are going to have different personalities. That's the weirdest thing, right? They all grew up in the same home and they're all just completely different. And so being able to help them understand kind of a little bit who they are and how that works has been a good thing that we're not the same.   Jolene Rocke: (17:53 - 20:01) God didn't make one good and one bad. He made all of us different, all in His image, to His glory. We all bring value to the family, and we both bring value to one another as helpmates because I'm able to sharpen Jon in areas that are blind spots for him. He's able to totally sharpen me and calm me in blind spots that are mine. So, I think in a marriage, it's just actually, it's been helpful. Differences are good.   Laura Dugger: (20:01 - 20:25) Oh, I love that. Differences are good. It sounds like God sanctified even your views of that. And so, getting really practical, when was a time when your differences were working against each other or caused conflict? And then how, through maturing and more time together, how do you celebrate and even lean into and appreciate those differences?   Jolene Rocke: (20:25 - 21:00) Well, one thing for sure is we had what we call our valley, where we learned that Psalm 23 wasn't just a funeral psalm, but it's a life psalm, and it's a way of life psalm. So, at that time, I had three family members pass away, and Jon had his family business go down. So, we watched our personalities within that in handling loss and grief. So, here's the optimist really down, and here's realist trying to be cheerleader and be up.   And so actually God did it, and we know without a doubt that God can work beyond personalities and bring you to a point where you can actually support one another well. But there again, it's got to be intentional. It's got to be me saying, we need to sit down now and have a meeting, talk about how you're feeling, whether you want to talk about feelings or not, because I need to know where you're at so that I can help you best.   Jon Rocke: (20:01 - 21:20) Yeah, and on a practical level during that time, I found myself not communicating some of what I thought was either scary or just the long drag of it. And so that was a potential way for us to disconnect because all of this is swirling from at least our livelihood standpoint, swirling in my head, and I'm not going to want to share that. And yet we realized we had to, but then those are not always easy things because Jolene, like most ladies, likes security as an important thing, right? Of just knowing what's going to happen.   In the end, it did make us really, again, Joe mentioned Psalm 23, and if he is our shepherd, what else could we want? We both had to end up clinging to that because our security was gone. Part of our sense of who we were, and particularly me in a family business for three generations, was gone. And so, we certainly had to make sure that our tendencies, like in communication, those kinds of things, we had to work through those during that time.   Laura Dugger: (21:21 - 21:30) Thank you for sharing that. I think that's very relatable to hear about the ups and the downs. And so, do you have any specific stories of a time when you were both in your strengths, and even though they were very different, they worked well together?   Jolene Rocke: (21:30 - 23:12) Yeah, I think that it's the learning what your strengths are that you may not know that God gives you at the time, and that's his grace. So, at the time, for all those years previous to the valley, Jon was the one that pushed me to communicate, and shutting down was not an option, which is what I wanted to do. So, I'd rather just not talk about it and go to bed. And he would push, push, push me to keep communicating, and that we would work through everything before the sun went down, as the Bible says.   Well, in the valley, it was Jon that was shutting down. And suddenly, you know, I had to be the one to push communication. So, this is something I heard on a sermon. A personality is not an excuse for sin. So that just means that I can't say, well, I'm not comfortable in conflict, so I'm not going to communicate and I'm going to shut down. No, you need to push yourself, ask the Lord for help, and go as his helpmate and say, you have to talk about it, you have to tell me, how are you doing? How are you feeling? So, I feel like it's just, it was such a beautiful valley when we look back now.   Laura Dugger: (23:12 - 23:25) Another previous guest had said she noticed when she was in the valley, that's when you're closest to the living water.   Jon Rocke: (23:13 - 24:41) Oh, absolutely. For sure. That's how creeks run, through valleys. Yeah. And I think our parenting, it was helpful for us to have both sides of our personality in parenting because I think we could address situations with our kids from different viewpoints and different ways to think about things, and those were helpful things as well.   But we also, during all sorts of the periods of time in our marriage, we had some little things that just reminded us. We had little words. So one was, you know, “we need to swim back.” So, you can often find yourself, because of a season of time or a season with your kids or whatever on the different islands, and we would just say, we got to swim back. And so that was one of our things that we did. And then we also had a, if we went too long, we just realized we weren't intentional about our intimacy of any kind. It was just basically, “Hey, you didn't kiss me today.” And we used to make that, “No, you didn't kiss me today.” And it was just a thing we tried to do to make sure that we had these little things that just kept us reminded. And so, they were really, they were kind of practical, just little code words for us that made a difference and got our minds back to where it needed to be.   Jolene Rocke: (24:41 - 24:50) Yeah, and in the busyness, that's easy to remember those little swing thoughts.   Laura Dugger: (24:50 - 30:17) Swim back. And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right. Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University. Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia. 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We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing the Savvy Sauce podcast episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review. You can also share any of our social media posts on Instagram or Facebook. We are grateful for all of it and we just love partnering together with you.   Now, back to the show. What encouragement do you have for healthy communication and healthy conflict resolution in marriage?   Jon Rocke: (30:19 - 31:31) God's grace. It's going to have to take time. You have to find that time together. So, I think it's all about prioritizing that time. I don't necessarily like conflict, but I know in our marriage you can't avoid it. And so, we just had to work through it right away. And so, I would say don't let time simmer conflict because that usually never makes it better.   Certainly, there's a sense of if there's something that's really emotional and maybe you need some space. My problem is I often don't give Jolene that space and that's hard on her, it really is, and sometimes not fair. But in the same vein, for me it felt like I didn't care if I just said, “Well, go ahead and be angry or be whatever or be upset about this or just let's not deal with it.” And she was gracious in pressing in and doing that. But I think don't let time go, just deal with it.   Jolene Rocke: (31:32 - 33:26) And two, the encouragement I think of is that Jon and I tell each other everything, every little thing. And we are very aware of couples that don't. And when Jon was holding back for me in that valley time, I really noticed it and I felt pretty alone. So, if you're always telling each other everything, there should be no secrets. So that just means there might be conflict then. If you're going to tell each other everything, then there might be conflict and you need to be prepared for that.   But that's better than me not saying anything. I sometimes say it's like a teapot, you're simmering or you're spouting. What's the perfect in the middle balance? It's really important to not simmer because you will spout eventually and then that's a harder conflict than if you just kept talking, kept telling every little thing. And so, we do tell each other every little thing.   Laura Dugger: (33:26 - 33:40) Well, and to go with that metaphor, if you have a release valve where that hot air can escape, it sounds like your communication has been that where you can get the water temperature back to a healthy place in the relationship.   Jolene Rocke: (33:40 - 33:55) Yeah, yes. And that takes work. So, I mean, honestly, what encouragement? Don't give up. Just keep going because it's worth it.   Laura Dugger: (33:55 - 34:10) Well, and I'm thinking back. Okay, so you had three kids. They're somewhat close together and you were young. So those years when all of your children were in the home, even elementary school age, that timeframe, what did that look like for communication? How did you still make sure you connected every day?   Jon Rocke: (33:26 - 34:31) Well, then throw in, we went to college after we had kids, which was actually, again, just God's grace and gift to us that we were able to leave town, leave the family business for a while, didn't think we were going to be involved in family business, went out to Indiana, went to school, and we didn't have anybody else but ourselves. And so that, again, was just his gift to us as young. We went in 1980, so that was two years after we were married. So, we already had Janelle at that point, and then Jamie came along soon after. And so, I had school but had to work to support. Jolene had to work and she was mom to two little ones. And so, again, I think it was just those times of making sure that we said nothing else can get in the way of us. Again, another phrase that we just had was, you know, we can get through anything together and nothing apart.   Jolene Rocke: (34:32 - 35:21) And that's not a flippant statement for us. That means we're trying and we're going to find the intentional time, put them to bed early, and make sure on weekends we're connecting well. And that meant sometimes driving with our kids. We'd go on drives. But that's Jon and I being able to talk. And then if they're goofing off in the back seat, it's okay. It's just fine because we actually are having talk time. Drive time has always been great communication time for us.   Laura Dugger: (35:21 - 35:35) That's really helpful, I think, for parents in any season. And you're talking about God's grace. So how has grace, and even forgiveness, benefited your relationship?   Jolene Rocke: (35:35 - 35:40) It's everything to our relationship.   Jon Rocke: (35:22 - 37:12) It's the only thing in everything. The parable of the unjust steward in Matthew 18 and just this idea that if you catch the enormity of your sin, then you can forgive others. And so that has been, I think, an important part of what we do because I love that whole story. Peter is asking that question, “How many times do I have to forgive somebody?” And if you think about a marriage context, well, that's a great question because my guess is it's going to be thousands upon thousands of times for whatever little or big things they are. And he's kind of like loading up. I feel that he's getting ready to say, “I've already forgiven this person six times. So, is it seven? And then after that, there's no more?” And the whole point of that is, oh, you really want to keep numbers, Peter? Here's the numbers. You've been forgiven zillions. And so, what's the little trifle amount that you're not going to forgive? And so, I'm thankful that Jolene is gracious because she's had to forgive me and continues to. We're still learning in a new season of life where now we get to work together, which to me is a really great joy. But it's also a different reality where we have a lot of work talk. Well, that's great. And we love that. But that can't dominate everything either. And so that's another one of those things that we have to figure out how to carve out our time away from work. Even though we enjoy working together and it's really fun, it's a new thing. That can't get in the way of us either.   Jolene Rocke: (37:13 - 40:14) There's got to be grace on both parts that now as I look at him as a boss also. And my husband, you know, I need to give a lot of grace to realize he's working within a momentum around a team and a leadership. But then as he comes home, and I'm very fully aware now of what a hat change that means for a man. That means that he's taking off his hat now and becoming my husband at home. And so, it's grace on both sides as he sees me working even under him or with him as a team. But it's a lot of grace and forgiveness over the years because in the early years as you're raising children, there might be unmet expectations is something I wrote down because I feel like as I think back to this pursuer of God and who I married and I remember those early years thinking, well, wow, he's not leading in devotions in the family. And I'm kind of struggling to find, I need to, as the mom then, pick that up and make sure we're doing with the children some family devotions. Well, that can create controversy. It can be that I would be upset, but I needed to forgive him for the fact that he didn't mean to do that and abdicate that responsibility. He just didn't know. And so, there's so much about being graceful as a wife to say, okay, I understand. That wasn't maybe how you were raised, or you didn't see that modeled in the home. But this is what I would desire for our family. And so, you just keep working and you keep forgiving because we've been forgiven so much, as Jon said. So, we know that. And I think the other key thing then with forgiveness becomes no record keeping, just as love is in 1 Corinthians 13. It doesn't keep the record of wrongs. I don't need to sit around with my time and in my brain and think about how much I've forgiven Jon. I need to think about the fact that God's forgiven so much in me, and he has to forgive me all the time. So, you're on this equal footing with forgiveness rather than trying to harbor a record of wrongs.   Laura Dugger: (40:14 - 40:40) Well, and I think you bring up examples for how it works in our families as well with children. And so, it's clear you two have such a solid marriage and you also have a thriving relationship with your adult children and your grandchildren and all their families. So, I think you just have a lot that you could teach us about raising a family as well. What are you so thankful that you did when your kids were living at home that you're now getting to see the payoff as they're adults?   Jon Rocke: (40:16 - 41:43) We literally grew up with our kids. So sorry for our kids that they had to, you know, grow up with their mom and dad. But that's been a lot of fun too because we did a lot of play. Again, these are just little things for us, these little words. So, as the kids were young, we used to, something that bothered them is I would tell them pretty plainly that I love mom most. And so, kids will always try to drive a wedge between mom and dad. That's just part of the fallen nature of kids. And so, we really communicated early. Our kids will tell you that was a hard lesson for them to learn that they didn't quite understand at that age, right? But they've really come to appreciate that in their own marriages. And then the other thing that we said was we choose you second. So, they knew we choose each other first because you're going to be gone someday and mom's not. And so, but we will always choose you second. So, friends were not a higher priority or social or hobby or anything. You know, the kids were always knew they were second. And so our kids are scattered all across, although we have Jamie and Jonathan here, one family here in Morton that we love to live life with. The others are gone, but I think we're still close in a lot of ways from that.   Jolene Rocke: (41:45 - 45:27) Yeah, I think we're a close family because we have stuck together through not just the ups, but the downs, but we're fun loving. Jon and I like games. We like to do stuff, and we like to go places. We prioritized vacation when they were little so that we were all together in an intentional environment that was away from home. And so, we were together, they enjoyed going to Florida every year and it was always what we called just happenstances that were so adverse. It wasn't your ideal. And so, we did not have ideal things happen on any trip, actually, that we go on. So, what we decided to call them is adventures. So, we intentionally took adverse situations, whether that's a flat tire, going to Florida with all the kids and it's the middle of the night and we're all sitting at a gas station on the curb waiting for the next tire to get fixed. It's just, we just always called them adventures and I'm not sorry for that. That's something our kids are passing on to their kids when things happen. Our son in particular, Jordan, his family seems to have a lot of adventures, like Jon and I have had. And that's what they call them to their children. So, I'm not sorry for the word adventure. Jon taught me a saying that he used to say, you love your children, even if you don't like them or you will lose them. And that was really important in the teenage years. When one of our children was struggling in junior high, I knew even if I didn't like the way this one was acting, I needed to just keep loving them as scripture says, right? Not if they're perfect, but all the time. And so, we didn't lose her through that time, I think because there was so much intentional loving beyond the liking. The other thing that I would just mention with that to encourage any, any mom or dad, I picked up the book, The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman and had this daughter read it with me so that we can learn, how do we love each other? Well, through this time when it feels like we don't really like each other that well. So, well, wow. I had no idea. It was physical touch for you. And I, I thought it was the acts of service. And you would notice that I picked up your room because I knew you had a hard day in a test at school. Well, there was never any knowledge or awareness that I did that for her. But whenever I put my arms around her and gave her a giant hug and wouldn't let her go until she melted in my arms, I realized, yes, that's what she, that's how I can love her best.   Laura Dugger: (45:27 - 45:50) That is awesome to hear that story. It is helpful to have actionable things that we can replicate. And so, I am going to link in the show notes to a few of our episodes that may be beneficial. If people want to take that concept a step further, Dr. Gary Chapman has been a previous guest. I'll link to those. And then also Katie Mueller talked about traveling with your family and the lessons that the Lord teaches his children about traveling in the Bible and how that applies to us. That's great. So, if you're willing, will you share anything more about the honeymoon? I'm so curious now.   Jon Rocke: (45:27 - 46:35) We will. I feel like we're taking too much time here.   Jolene Rocke: (46:35 - 46:36) I don't know, but well, we knew that this was setting the tone for marriage as far as adventures.   Jon Rocke: (46:36 - 46:37) But well, the very first off we, we got on a plane. So, we got married on a Sunday and we were flying out down to Florida on Sunday night. We got to Atlanta where we were supposed to connect to another plane. We were supposed to go to Fort Myers, Florida and there had been a storm and, and they were rushing to get us on the right flights or to get us to the next flight. And they put us on the wrong plane. You know, this was back in the day where that could happen. Couldn't happen today, but put us on the wrong plane. We ended up in Melbourne, Florida at midnight last flight of the night. You know, we're newlyweds. We're supposed to be, you know, on our honeymoon. They put us up at a Holiday Inn Express with the crew and said, you know, we'll get you out a flight. You have to be up at 4 a.m. And so, you know, I was, our first night was not necessarily what you would, you know, call the most romantic night that we could have. And then do you want to tell the second story of our honeymoon?   Jolene Rocke: (46:36 - 46:37) The canoe trip.   Jon Rocke: (46:37 - 46:37) Yeah.   Jolene Rocke: (46:37 - 47:28) The canoe trip is, I have such bad allergies to many things. And so, Jon knew that because we tried to go horseback riding and I thought I'd be okay because it was outdoors, but the dander on the horse made me just blow up into a big ball on my face. And so, he realized how much I have a problem with allergies, but we decided to go canoeing in a very narrow mangrove swamp. That was really depleted in, in its depth that day. And so, we were canoeing along, but we, we got into the side of the mangrove trees and out came a Hornets, Hornets out of this giant nest and stung me all over my back.   Jon Rocke: (47:28 - 47:50) And so Jon went into, I'm like thinking that my six day, you know, marriage is over. My wife, who's so allergic, we're half hour out on our journey and I'm, she's like going to die on the spot. Cause I figured if she's so allergic to animals, then this many, you know, bee stings or wasp stings, she's, you know, she's dead.   Jolene Rocke: (47:52 - 48:12) So he jumps, jumps out. Yeah. First, the truth is he took my top off and started taking mud from the bottom of the creek and, just plasters me with mud on my back. And then he jumps out of the canoe and starts running the, the canoe. Cause it was pretty shallow.   Jon Rocke: (48:12 - 48:31) I decided it was going to be quicker to get her back in time. I figured I had about 30 minutes, you know, to, to try to get her to some medical attention. And so, yeah, so I'm running the canoe back instead of paddling it. Cause I knew I could get faster. Well, then I cut my foot on a shoal and we're a mess.   Jolene Rocke: (48:31 - 48:37) I mean, he had it. What? Like six-inch stitches. So, we ended up in the ER here.   Jon Rocke: (48:37 - 48:38) Yeah.   Jolene Rocke: (48:38 - 48:52) Both of us with me, with stings, Jon, with a cut. And, and that was just the start of the honeymoon that we called a giant adventure adventure since it wasn't great.   Jon Rocke: (48:52 - 48:55) It's been a 44-year adventure.   Laura Dugger: (48:55 - 49:15) You did start with quite the adventure. I love that. And I think the husbands' listening will appreciate, of course you took their top off first.   Jon Rocke: (49:03 - 49:04) That's right.   Jolene Rocke: (49:05 - 49:07) It was a little embarrassing.   Jon Rocke: (49:08 - 49:10) It was a good thing. Nobody else.   Jolene Rocke: (49:10 - 49:15) Nobody else.   Laura Dugger: (49:15 - 49:25) Sorry. I had to tease on that part, but through various seasons, how did you prioritize one another above your kids, your career and your own families of origin?   Jon Rocke: (49:25 - 50:35) We just knew we had to have time. So, a couple of things. I mean, we had a fortunate built in mechanism too, to take trips together. So, within our family business, we had conferences and such that we had to attend. And so, we made that a priority that we were going to do those together. I wasn't going to just go by myself. And so, a couple of times a year, and now that we're working together, it can feel like life blurs between everything. So, while we're at home, we're still talking about work and we're still dealing with ministry. And the other thing is with our kids away, a lot of our trip time is spent with our kids. So, we have to make that, that's gotta be a priority, but we realized we still need just our time away. and when we got, we went down to Florida and we just said, okay, no work talk for these five days, you know, no work talk. And it was pretty fun because most of the time Jolene broke that rule. And I would say, wait a minute, no work talk.   Jolene Rocke: (50:36 - 50:36) It's true.   Jon Rocke: (50:37 - 51:09) It's very true. But those, so trips were a big thing for us, and they don't have to be a big deal trip, but a weekend away to break the routine. You know, the example of that was, that's why God created festivals and holidays were to break routine and to have a stop in our everyday lives. And so, he knew we needed that to reconnect with him. Well, we know we need that in our marriages is to break the routine.   Jolene Rocke: (51:10 - 52:17) Very intentionally. Jon was wise enough to know we needed that as even as young as he was. Can you imagine the volumes of love that that spoke to me, that he wanted me to go with him on the trips. So that meant so much to me. And it still does today because he always wants me to go with him. And then I, I just have over the years, like when the kids were at home, that was days of rest for me when he was in meetings. But as I started growing too, as a person and not needing as much rest, I also would go into all the meetings because I liked the learning. But even as we went through college, like I just was always a part of the learning. And, and I liked that, but Jon included me. That said a lot to me.   Laura Dugger: (52:18 - 52:25) And I love your companionship, how you prioritize that. What advice do you have for all of us married couples as we seek to grow as one rather than start to grow parallel or even worse, start to grow apart from one another?   Jon Rocke: (52:18 - 52:47) Yeah, I think find things to do together. That's part of how even the biking, the tandem thing came about. Cause if we went out on bikes on our individual bikes, then I'm like, I'm wanting to run ahead. Well, you know, and then, and she's like, you know, you're not getting very much exercise or whatever the case may be. But then on a tandem, we could accomplish everything together. And so, finding some of those things.   Jolene Rocke: (52:47 - 54:56) So there's seasons of time when you're raising your children, like that, Jon was biking by himself and with some other men in a fast pace for extreme exercise. And I was doing my thing. And so, I'm not saying that hobbies apart from one another are negative, but for us, they've been mostly together. And so that just means that even there was a period that yes, Jon would go out golfing, not in excess, but when our kids were around and little, I think I was communicating even in that, that you don't just go off golfing every Saturday and leave your wife with the kids on a Saturday because you now that's your day off work. No, it's, we never get a day off work. So, you need to kick in at home too. So, there was this balance, I think is a really good word for how do you, how do you do like even individual hobbies and exercise even, but then mostly we're always trying to figure out how we can do things together. So, taking a back seat, literally on a tandem bike and knowing that that was going to help our marriage to be together. I also said recently now in a decade ago, I will learn how to golf. And so that, that just meant, again, I have no, no interest that much in golfing. I thought I loved riding the car around and being outside, but now it's like, yes, I will learn to golf if that means that that's another hobby and a sport and an activity that we can do together. So, we started a Friday night golf time, just Jon and I, it's a date night of golf and Dairy Queen supper. We call it Dairy Queen supper because we just don't eat supper, but we eat Dairy Queen after we go. So there again, there's just like, what are, what can we do together? And we're still doing date nights because it's just, we actually are really good friends still.   Jon Rocke: (54:57 - 55:51) Well, I think like I say, every season has been different for us. There was a time where kids were intense and Joe was a phenomenal mom and, was totally engaged in that. And you're in your career phase too. And so, all those things are competing. Well, then we've come back in the last five years and now we work together. So that's a different whole different dynamic. And so that's why we needed, you know, yeah, we need a golf and Dairy Queen night because we just need to get away from the intensity of our work relationship, you know, and take that break on our tandems. We usually ride for breakfast. So, most things have to do with food. It's not about exercise. It's about how to eat. So that's kind of just part of what we do.   Laura Dugger: (55:51 - 56:19) I love it though. That's an interest for all people. It's something that we have to do multiple times a day. Well, what do you want to leave us with? Whether it's a challenge or scripture, it can be anything, but how would you like to wind down our time together today?   Jolene Rocke: (56:19 - 56:30) I'm going to just say to encourage everyone. Our marriage has taken compromise and it's taken communication and it pays off in the end.   Jon Rocke: (56:19 - 57:11) You know, Ephesians 5 is really an important understanding that it's submitting to each other. The idea of wives submit to your husband, you're not catching the whole picture of that. If that's what your focus is, because it's husband loves you, love your wives as Christ loved the church. And so, and it starts the whole section off with submit to one another. And so, we have to be just intentional and committed. One of my favorite sayings is from Augustine, who says, when he was in prayer one time says to God, “Command what you will, but give what you command.” And so, when I think about our marriage, that's what grace is all about. Yes, it takes intentionality and commitment, but that only comes by his grace.   Jolene Rocke: (57:11 - 57:55) And one other thing that I thought of is that we always taught our kids to remember whose they are. And that just means that if you do that within a marriage too, and you're remembering that you're the Lord's, you're made in his image, then you relate and you will love the other one better. Even as you know your identity in Christ first, you will love your mate better.   Laura Dugger: (57:55 - 58:05) Amen. And you too may know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Jon Rocke: (57:56 - 58:07) You know, I just say submission is a good thing. It's not associated that way, but in a marriage it's such a good thing.   Jolene Rocke: (58:08 - 59:13) So that's both submitting to each other, not just the wife being clamped down. But our savvy sauce would be that sacrifice and submission are good things. They're not bad words. So, in our experience, a savvy sauce for our 44-year-old marriage is that sacrifice and submission have been very good things on both of our parts.   Laura Dugger: (59:13 - 59:20) Well, you clearly live this out, and you've been great role models to Mark and to me and our family. You love one another with such an intensity, and you love your Lord that way, and you love your children that way in your community. And I just see the way that He's had this ripple out from being intentional in the most key important parts of life, and that He's really blessed you in that, but He's also blessed all of us around you. So, thank you for sharing your journey with us. Thank you so much for being my guest.   Jolene Rocke: (59:20 - 59:22) It's been so great to be here with you. Thanks for asking, Laura.   Jon Rocke: (59:13 - 59:27) Yeah, it's been a privilege for us just to take the time to reflect again and realize the challenges, but really just celebrate what God has done through His grace in us and our marriage. So, thanks.   Laura Dugger: (59:27 - 1:03:10) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

281. Excel in Social Skills and Etiquette and Teach Your Children To Do The Same with Monica Irvine   Proverbs 20:11 NIV “Even small children are known by their actions, so is their conduct really pure and upright?”   Ephesians 4:32a AMP “Be kind and helpful to one another,”   *Transcription Below*   Monica Irvine, President and creator of The Etiquette Factory, LLC, is a master motivator and dedicated instructor who loves to help children and adults see the benefits and rewards of having proper etiquette, mastering professionalism and excelling in social skills. As a Certified Etiquette Instructor and working in the hospitality industry for 24 years, Mrs. Irvine specializes in etiquette and professional instruction to help ensure the success of each individual both personally and professionally.   Mrs. Irvine is the published author of three books on Etiquette and one book on Scheduling including: Etiquette for Beginners, Etiquette Intermediate, Etiquette Masters and A Schedule Makes for a Happy Family, in addition to authoring several monthly columns in national publications such as Everything Knoxville, The Homeschool Handbook and the Homeschool Magazine.   Mrs. Irvine is a national speaker, speaking to thousands of parents, educators and children every year.   Residing in Knoxville, TN with her husband, Mrs. Irvine spends her free time playing tennis, running and enjoying her family of three boys and a granddaughter.   You may contact Mrs. Irvine at monica@TheEtiquetteFactory.com  or via her website at www.TheEtiquetteFactory.com. Rise Up Parenting FUNdamentals 4 Kids Life Skills Essentials   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are some red flags we can identify in our lives if we are too busy and what wisdom do you recommend instead of our overstuffed schedules? As parents, why must we proactively teach these qualities to our children, rather than just instruct them in a moment of correction? Will you share stories of ways the Holy Spirit has nudged you to use etiquette and it resulted in something miraculous?    Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: Unexpected Grief and What Helped Me Through It Can Help You Too with Singer and Blogger, Brittany Price Brooker   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:10)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 2:19) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.   My guest for today is the charming Monica Irvine. She is president and creator of The Etiquette Factory. She's a master motivator and dedicated instructor who just loves helping children and adults to see the benefits and rewards of having proper etiquette. She also loves to help people master professionalism and excel in social skills.   So, she's going to give us insight into all of these ideas and share stories today for ways that we can actually seek the Lord and love others well and value people through the proper use of etiquette.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Monica.   Monica Irvine: (2:19 - 2:20) Thank you. Thanks for having me, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (2:20 - 5:41) Well, I'm so excited to get a chat with you today, but let's just begin here. I'm so fascinated because you were born and raised in the South. Is that right?   Monica Irvine: Well, yes, Tennessee. Absolutely consider myself Southern.   Laura Dugger: I love it. And I grew up in the Midwest and got to live in the South for a few years. And I was very struck by the difference in manners. And I'm just curious if manners and etiquette were intentionally taught to you, both in your family and then just kind of in your Southern culture around you.   Monica Irvine: (2:20 - 5:32) Well, yes. So, when I think about being raised in the South, I think and maybe my mom and my grandmas were a little different. But what I would describe my upbringing is very particular, meaning everything was made special.   And my parents and my grandparents took a lot of pride in making things beautiful and lovely. And so, of course, my mom cooked every night. But like at my home growing up and we did not have a lot of money, just know that my parents struggled.   But my mother would never put a ketchup bottle on the table or a mayonnaise jar. Everything had to be put in little bowls with little spoons. And it's funny because my friends that I have today, I get given little spoons for birthdays and occasions because my friends all know how much I love little dainty things.   But, you know, and some people, you know, might think that's a little ridiculous. But I'll tell you something. I don't know that we need to eat that way every night, seven nights a week.   But it made dinner time feel special. And even the way my mother and my grandmothers kept their house, everything had its place. It was not messy.   We had clean homes. And I think it also just helped me be proud of my home. I mean, once again, we did not have a lot of money, but my friends thought my home was so nice.   Well, the reason it was so nice is because my mother kept such care of it. And so, I was raised with a lot of cousins and live close to both of my grandparents. And so even the outside of their homes, both sets of grandparents, everything was beautiful.   And so there was a lot of pride in who we are, how we presented ourselves. But you're going to laugh at this. So, my mom, my dad tells me this story that right after my mom and dad got married, my dad came home from work one day and my mom was ironing.   You know, she'd spend a whole day ironing every week or half a day. And my mom was ironing my dad's underwear. And my mom's name is Janice.   And he was like, “Janice, honey, what are you doing?” And “I know just ironing, Bob.” And he's like, “Babe, you don't need to iron my underwear.”   But, you know, the thing is, that to my mother and my grandmothers being a good wife and being a good mother meant making sure everyone in the family looked nice, that their clothes were clean, that the home was clean, that there was good food on the table. And that was part of their identity, of this is what it means to be a good wife and mother. And I love that about my upbringing.   Laura Dugger: (5:33 - 5:41) And do you have any reasons why you think that's changed a little bit over the years?   Monica Irvine: (5:42 - 8:34) Yeah, I think we've gotten lazy. Well, no, I just I think there you know, there's balance, right? There's when I look back, I can't really remember my mom playing with me.   But now, listen, I don't feel like I missed out, but I do recognize it. But I guess even as a little girl, sure, I would have loved my mom to play with me. But that's just not in my mind what moms did.   Moms cleaned house and made everything and cooked your meal. And so, I do. I'm grateful that as a society, we have adjusted somewhat.   Sometimes I believe too much but have adjusted in going. What's the most important things? And because I'm a big believer in playing with our children and our grandchildren and creating memories.   But now my family, my parents and we worked a lot together. Like if we were if the yard needed raking, it wasn't kids go rake the yard. Mom, dad, kids were in the yard raking.   If a car needed to be washed, it wasn't go wash the car. We were all out there washing the car. So, I think that's why I don't feel like I missed out because my family did so many things together.   Whereas today we're so separated. No parents give their children and babies phones and iPads so they'll just be quiet so they can get their important work done. Like grocery shopping or cooking.   And I just think that instead of teaching our children how to self-soothe and self-entertain and how to creatively play even by yourself, sometimes we just always believe there has to be a babysitter to distract our children from wanting mom and dad. It's just I you know, this could be a whole other talk, Laura, but I just you know, I see it. It breaks my heart sometimes on the lack of how often families work together, play together and do things together.   But now, you know, dad's watching his game in this room. Mom is in another room, maybe on her computer doing social media. The kids are in their rooms on their games.   And I see a lack of family unity. So once again, even though maybe my mom and dad didn't play with us and I'm glad we've shifted with that thought process. Still, we were a united family.   Laura Dugger: (8:35 - 8:56) I love that. And the Lord has clearly given you a passion for that instilling that in others. And He invited you into a journey that eventually led to The Etiquette Factory, which is the work that you get to do today.   So, can you share the impetus for that and what that journey looked like for you?   Monica Irvine: (8:56 - 13:54) I will. I love my company. I feel like it's just yet another beautiful adventure the Lord has allowed me to be on in my life.   And so, I feel like I'm just outside looking in at this beautiful little business that has allowed me to minister to children and adults in need. So, years ago, I was homeschooling our kids. I was homeschooling our youngest son at the time, and we were studying the life of President George Washington.   And I just kind of stumbled upon this list. It was called George Washington's Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior. It is a beautiful list of 110 chivalry skills.   And apparently, President Washington was encouraged to focus on some chivalry as was part of a formal education in those days. He found a French book that had these list of chivalry kind of considerations, and he copied them. He hand copied them, of course.   And we have that list of 110 chivalry skills in President Washington's handwriting. But as I started reading over this list, the Lord penetrated my heart. I just I was like, these are so beautiful.   I mean, some of them were kind of funny. Some of them were. It's not polite to remove lice from your companion in public, which I think is good to know.   But most of the beautiful chivalry skills were very applicable to today. And I was like I want my son to memorize these skills. So, we started memorizing one Washington skill a week.   And because they were written in that old English, you know, sometimes we were like, what does this mean? And it just I just decided for my son's sake, who was nine at the time, I wanted to just kind of make my own version. But what was so a light bulb moment for me is as we started making manners part of our daily discussion in school, I noticed a change in my child's behavior and my son would be like, “Mom, let's do another one. What's the next one? Let's do one more.”   And I found that so fascinating because, as you know, most of us parents, when we teach manners, we're teaching it in the moment, usually correcting bad behavior. It's not that that's our goal. It's just that that's when we think about it.   Our child says, or does something that's not the most polite, and all of a sudden we're going, “Oh, honey, no, honey, you can't say that. That's not polite.” And then we make the correction and then we teach the skill.   And what I learned and realized is that so often that's when I was teaching my children manners in the moment of correcting. And what I've learned about that is when we're being corrected, whether you're three years old or 30 years old, we harden our heart typically because it's self-preservation. You know, we stiffen up when someone's like, “Monica, you really shouldn't have.” I'm like, whoa.   And it's just because of our own pride. We don't like being called out and neither do our children, even when we're doing it gently and politely. It's still a correction.   And so, what I found is when our heart is hardened, as the scripture says, it's not the best time to absorb information. It's the opposite of being humble. To be humble means to be teachable.   To be hardened means to not be teachable. So, when we have a hardened heart, it's hard for us to absorb things of the spirit, which all truth comes from God. So, anything that is lovely of good rapport is of God.   So, when we're teaching our children to be kind and to have kind considerations for others, those are God's truths and God's truths cannot seep into the soul of our heart unless our heart is soft. And so that is what happened is I was like, today we're going to learn how to use our napkin properly. Or today we're going to learn how to apologize.   But how do you make it sound sincere and how do you be sincere when you don't really feel it? And so, as we started just working on one skill at a time, the conversations were typically beautiful. Parts were changed and behavior ended up changing.   And so really, that's what then later became The Etiquette Factory.   Laura Dugger: (13:55 - 14:20) I love that because I think it gives our children confidence because then they're equipped and prepared and understand what's expected of them in different situations or what can bless others in the way they act. But then I'm curious, you gave a few examples of those. Can you think of any of George Washington's chivalry lines that would still apply today?   Monica Irvine: (14:21 - 19:07) Yes, well, so I'm not quoting, I'm summarizing. So, for instance, one is it is not polite to hum or sing in the presence of others that would cause distraction. And so basically it's not polite to draw attention to ourselves but also draw attention or interrupt other people's day life when we haven't been invited to do so.   So let me give you this definition we use for etiquette. So, at The Etiquette Factory, etiquette is helping those around us to feel valued and to feel comfortable. Well, if I'm sitting there humming along, but the person beside me really doesn't want to hear my humming, then I might be causing that person to feel uncomfortable.   Same thing, you know, whenever I start off teaching a class, because usually when everyone thinks of manners, they think of table manners. Of course, there's so much more. But I use this example.   I say, well, if I were to come to your home and sit down and I started eating like a pig in the presence of your family, I mean, I'm chewing with my mouth open. I'm making a smacking my lips. I'm taking too big of bites and food is falling in my lap or I'm making a mess on the table.   Or I eat so fast that I am finished eating, getting up to leave. And you're just on your third bite of food. Well, any of those behaviors, I would be sending a message.   And that message is, look, I'm here for one person and that person is myself. I came to fill up my belly because I'm hungry. And beyond that, I really don't care.   I don't care if I'm making you uncomfortable. I don't care if I'm grossing you out. I don't care if you actually wanted to talk to me because I just came here to eat and I'm out of here.   You see, we don't realize it, but a lack of chivalry is called selfishness. A lack of chivalry is inward focused. When we focus outwardly on what message am I sending to those around me?   Am I sending a message of love and care and value? That is etiquette. I get emailed all the time and message like, “OK, Monica, I've got this shower I'm putting on.   And my daughter is not going to invite her work friends to the wedding. But is it OK if we invite all of them to a wedding shower?” And they'll go, so what's the etiquette rule?   Well, there is no etiquette rule about that, except etiquette is about helping those around us to feel valued. And so that's how I answer every question. I'm like, well, let me ask you if you were invited to a wedding shower, where you're asking her friends to shower your daughter with gifts and love to celebrate her wedding.   But yet those friends were not valued enough to invite to the wedding. How do you think it would make them feel? And so that's what the answer is with etiquette.   Now, there's exceptions. In fact, that case, that's a real email I got. And she ended up having the shower because her daughter went and told her co-worker who offered to give her a wedding shower.   “You know what? I thought that is so thoughtful. I'm so grateful that you were willing to do that. But we're having a very small, intimate wedding, you know, for financial reasons and intimacy reasons. And so, I just don't feel comfortable inviting people to bring gifts for me and knowing that we're just we're not going to be able to invite everyone to the wedding.”   And that co-worker said, “We don't care. We knew you were having a small wedding. We want to celebrate you.”   And so, you know, you can there be exceptions, but a lady and a gentleman always try to be very aware of those unspoken messages. And that guides our conversation, our answers, our actions. And that's what we teach children and adults to do at The Etiquette Factory.   Laura Dugger: (19:07 - 21:17) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Burchie family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.   If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle.   This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple, welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.   I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.   Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook  by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.   I loved, this was a few months back, but we came to a homeschool convention, and I loved your talk on purposeful parenting. One thing that you said, just I think backing it up and looking at our family in general, you said, “If we're too busy to do the most important things, we're too busy. Stop allowing the adversary to tempt us to remain too busy.”   So, Monica, what wisdom can you share for maybe red flags that can help us identify when we're too busy to focus on the most important things, and what do you recommend instead of overstuffing our schedules and our lives?   Monica Irvine: (21:18 - 26:23) You know, that's a great question. Those are good questions that every family should ask themselves. You know, I think that if we are to strive to focus on the most important things, step number one is, has mom and dad identified the most important things?   Because if you don't know what your goal is, then you're not going to as easily recognize when something is interfering with your goal. So, for instance, maybe mom and dad sits down and says, “Well, our number one goal is to make sure that our children know Jesus Christ. And so, what do we need to do to make sure that we're doing our best to help our children know who He is?”   Well, and so a family might decide, well, we want to have daily scripture study and daily family and individual prayer. We want to make it a priority to be at church so that we can worship on the Sabbath, but also so that we can meet together with other like-minded Christians and minister to one another as we're taught by the Savior. That's important for us to do.   And perhaps we want to learn to do as the Savior does. And that's why we're going to learn of His attributes and try to follow in His footsteps and be a family of service. So, let's just say those are our four of the most important things.   If that's our goal, then hopefully mom and dad could recognize when we're starting to stumble off the path that leads to our goal. For instance, I can't tell you how many parents have come up to me after they hear me speak on this topic and say, “Monica, I wish I had heard you say this 10 years ago. But we got sucked up into the what the world has to offer, and we started allowing our children to play competitive sports on Sunday. And so, we stopped going to church years ago because there was always a championship game on Sunday morning and always another tournament. And we wanted our children to have, you know, college opportunities.”   And there's nothing wrong with college opportunities unless that college opportunity interferes with our most important goal. And so that's why first mom and dad have to decide what is the most important, because then it's easier to recognize when we are being tempted by the adversary to focus on what the world is trying to offer us.   And the world offers us shiny things that tempt our human nature to want to be popular and loved by all and wealthy. And so, we just have to always go back to our goals. You know, I've got families that say, “I wish we had eaten dinner together more often. But we allowed our children to be so scheduled that there was not one night or there was only one night a week that we actually sat down at the table together.”   You know, parents. You will regret that. And you can't take back these precious, very short years that you have your children under your roof in your home.   And you will be someone like me one day where all of my kids are graduating and grandchildren and all you live for is your children to come visit and your children to come have dinner. And so, when you allow the world to creep in and be more important than spending time with your family, time with the Lord, time on good and lovely things, you will regret it. And I just think that probably every year come January, mom and dad should sit down and go, let's look at last year.   What were we missing from our family schedule? What do we need to reevaluate whether that is the most important thing? And so that's something I think all of us have to do on a regular basis.   Laura Dugger: (26:24 - 27:20) I think you're hitting on something profound there, that reflection with the Lord or with our spouse. I think we have no excuse because if there is no spouse in the picture, we always have the Lord. But to be intentional, to take that time, maybe on a Sabbath and go through a few questions and reflect back.   I think that could save us from a lot of regret. So, I really appreciate that response. And going back to etiquette, then you've taught us that it is a learned behavior.   This isn't something that our children will just naturally pick up. It's best to do in times where their hearts are soft, so proactive if possible. But I'd love to know in your own life, when were times that the Holy Spirit nudged you to use etiquette and it resulted in something miraculous?   Monica Irvine: (27:21 - 32:56) Oh, goodness. Okay, well, to me, I think miraculous is seeing the Lord's divine hand in our life. I see the miracle of the Lord every day in my life.   But probably most often is when I kneel down at the end of a day, I repent daily because I need to daily. And it's always a little nervous because I pray and I ask the Lord, as sometimes I know what I need to repent of. I know that I recognized I stumbled that day on something, but sometimes I just I pray and I say, “Lord, you know, just help.”   If something needs to be brought to my mind that I need to repent of and that I need to do better, would you bring it to my mind at this time? And it wasn't that long ago that the Lord brought to my mind something that I had gotten in the habit of doing that I didn't feel like it was wrong, but it was wrong. And so, etiquette, one of the etiquette skills I teach everyone is that it's not polite for us to gossip.   A lady and a gentleman always draw attention to the lovely and wonderful things that other people do. Now, if there's a safety issue, that's different, but I'm just talking about we don't share negative things about other people. And so, it's something I teach every year, all year long.   But I feel like I've done so much better than I did twenty-five years ago when the Lord really chastised me one time for gossiping. But in the last couple of months, I had gotten in the habit of sharing with my husband. So sometimes, you know, when you share with your spouse that you kind of feel like that's a safe place that the same rules don't apply because you and your spouse kind of talk about everything.   And so, I was in the habit of sharing with my spouse something that I was worried about that another person in our family did. But I was constantly going, “Oh, I don't like that. They do this and I don't like that. They do this and I'm worried about it.” And I actually was worried about it. But I just was constantly kind of highlighting these things that I didn't like that someone in our family did.   Well, one night I was praying and asked the Lord to bring to my mind and the Lord brought that to my mind. And it was kind of like he said, “Monica, don't you remember that? If you're worried about someone. Instead of sharing those negative things, even with Charles, my husband, what would be more effective is if you prayed and asked me to bless that person, to help that person, you know, in the ways that they need help and ask me to help, you know, of ways that you could be a better example to that person. But you don't need to constantly draw attention because it's starting to make you be negative towards this person.”   And I just like right when the Lord said that to me, I was embarrassed. I was like, “Monica, that. Yeah. Like, how do you not know that? That you should know better than that.”   Well, so immediately I repented and I apologized to the Lord and I and I started doing what he asked me to do. And within just a couple of days, like I started just noticing all of the wonderful, lovely things that this person is and does. And so, just to me, that is miraculous and it happens all the time.   And if I'm humble enough to repent and to listen to the Lord, because the Lord wants to help us and he wants us to strive to be like him. But we've got to ask where we need to be corrected. And so, I teach etiquette, I teach we don't gossip.   And then lo and behold, I had kind of gotten myself in another trap again. You know, and I just I think it's a miracle what happens when we listen to the Lord. He immediately turns our mind to good, lovely, beautiful things and allows us to be a vessel of light instead of vessel of darkness.   And we can be that vessel of darkness just right inside our own marriage, even though we think that's kind of a safe place to maybe be a little looser with our tongue. So, there's one example.   Laura Dugger: (32:57 - 33:26) I love that. And I remember you also explaining whenever you get a thought in your head that you don't want to do, it's likely 100 percent from God. So, can you share a couple specific stories of times that that was the Holy Spirit telling you something that you didn't maybe want to do, but you obeyed?   I'm remembering something about a grocery store and another time separately about a phone call. Yeah.   Monica Irvine: (33:26 - 40:29) OK, well, I'll tell about the phone call just because it's less sad. So, yeah, one time there was this lady and she was just kind of investigating our church and starting to come to our church and kind of fill it out. So, I had just met her and I found out that her what led her to come looking for God is her husband was an addict and she was just at her wits end and their marriage and family was falling apart.   And so, she came looking for the for help for the Lord. And so, I learned a little bit about her story. I ended up taking her to one of those celebrate recovery places at another church because I knew they had a wonderful program.   And so, I had interacted with her a couple of times. I probably had only known her about a month when one night I was running late to take my kids to youth on Wednesday night and I was cooking some spaghetti and I was just, you know, cooking that spaghetti at the stove. And all of a sudden I had a thought come into my mind, “Call her.”   And, you know, I was like, oh, yeah, I do need to call her. I need to call and check on her. I will, you know, after church tonight.   And so, I, you know, kept cooking that spaghetti. And the second time the Spirit, because that's who it was talking to me, because that's who tells us to do good things. Not us, but God.   The Spirit said, “Monica, call her.” But I was running late and I was trying to get my kids fed and I was like, I will call her as soon as I get the kids fed, you know, drop them off at church and then I'll call her, you know, and so I really meant to call her. But I.   Finally, a third time, and it seems to always take me three times before I realize, OK, he means now. And so, a third time it was like “Monica call.” And so, it was so strong.   And I, I know it's the Lord, but I, I just turned the stove off. I went into my bedroom, got my phone out, dialed her number. And as it was ringing, she picked up the phone and all I heard was just some quiet sobbing.   And she couldn't speak. And I, you know, I said her name. I said, “Hey, so and so it's Monica. I just. I see that you're upset. I just wanted to call and check on you. In fact, the Lord insisted that I call and check on you.”   And then her, you know, her crying just continued. It wasn't until, you know, she had calmed down and she just said, you know, “Monica, I had been praying and just asking the Lord to just show me that, you know, show me that you care that this is happening to me.” Something like that.   And, you know, I, I, in that moment, my stomach kind of did that little knot because I knew how close I had come to just not calling. And sure, I could have called her an hour later. It would have been at least an hour later and maybe, you know, it would have mattered.   But the Lord knew that it mattered right in that moment. She needed an answer. She needed to know that the Lord was listening.   And I've learned that in my life, that whenever we get a thought that comes into our mind and that thought is to do something good, like calling someone, you all is a good thing. Visiting someone, writing a letter to someone. Those are good things.   And all good comes from the Lord. And sometimes I wonder, does the Lord trust me? Does he know I'll respond when the stakes are high?   You know, sometimes I think as we continue to learn how to hear the spirit, we have to practice. Oh, that was the spirit. And probably if you're like me, I've learned a lot about the spirit by not listening.   And then later going, “Oh, yeah, Lord, I did miss that. You tried. You tried to warn me, or you tried to get me to do that. And I dismissed it.”   But so, you all I just think it takes practice and I'm still practicing. But I do believe that especially when it's something that we don't really want to do or we think we don't have time. And I just realize I felt the Lord going, “Monica, do you not think I know you're cooking spaghetti? Do you not think I know you're running late? But right now, there's something more important I need you to do than to get your kids to church on time.”   And so, I think at some point we have to decide, do we trust Him or don't we? And if we trust Him, we have to trust Him completely. And that means when we receive a prompting that we will act quickly because the Lord knows what we're doing.   And He knows that we don't have the best relationship with that person. Yet you're feeling like you should call. He already knows that.   And it doesn't mean that everything's always going to turn out the way we think it will. Sometimes I think the Lord just wants us to know ourselves that we'll do what He asked us to do, regardless of how it will turn out. And sometimes I feel like the Lord has told me to do something and I did it and it didn't go well.   And I'm like, “Lord, like, why? Why?” And I know all of us, you all sit there and go, wait, was that my thought or was it God's thought?   And you know what I have learned is that just stop worrying about it. Just act in faith. And the Lord always backs up His people.   The Lord doesn't, as you and I are praying and striving to understand the Lord's will. And let's say we get an idea and so we act on it because we feel like it was a prompting and then it does not go well. I believe the Lord loves so much that you were trying to listen and be obedient and the blessings will come.   Sometimes we just don't know the timing or how, but we've just got to trust.   Laura Dugger: (40:29 - 43:59) I love that. And we never know what's happening on the other side of our obedience. And I'll link back to Brittany Price Brooker's episode because she was one who had lost her husband and was crying out to the Lord.   I think she was bathing her young children, and they didn't have food in the house and maybe they were sick. And the only thing that sounded good to their child was apples, but it was late at night. She couldn't go get them herself.   And she was just praying like, “Lord, do You see me? Do You know my needs? I need You to meet my needs.”   And right then the doorbell rings and somebody showed up and she said, “The Lord told me to buy you these apples and bring them to you.” And I think that highlights something else. You articulated it well when you say whenever you get that thought in your head that you something that you don't want to do, it's likely 100% from God.   I would say a lot of times too, it's also awkward or inconvenient. We don't know why. And then I think back to the Bible, Abraham was put in a very awkward situation with his son and Noah, that was very awkward to be building the boat when there wasn't rain.   But look at the blessing that comes on the other side of obedience. So, appreciate those stories are really helpful.   By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them or watch them now that we're offering video rather than just audio. So, we heard all of that and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes.   Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.   So, at that same conference, when I heard you speak, you shared something that really stuck with me. This one was about our daughters. So, I want to talk about daughters first and then we'll move to sons.   But you mentioned there was this one study where over 3,000 men were surveyed. And they were asked, what's the number one quality that you desire in your wife? Either current wife or someday in the future when you're married.   And do you remember the response? Yeah, it was kindness. Kindness.   That she is kind. And so, I wondered, was there another side for the boys then too? What do you think women would say for their future or their current spouse?   What attribute do you think they would identify?   Monica Irvine: (44:00 - 47:35) It didn't have that for the other side, but a word that we don't use as much anymore. And I try to use it a lot is, I think most women, even if it wouldn't come to their mind immediately, once they heard it, they'd be like, oh, wait, no, yeah, that. And that is honorable.   They would want their husbands to be honorable. And to be honorable means that we do honorable things. And honorable things always 100 percent of the time require some level of sacrifice.   That's what makes them honorable when we sacrifice and give up our time, ourself in order to better someone else to help our country, our family, others. And so, I think today what we all want is for our spouses, husbands and wives to be kind and to live honorable lives. Those lives, it doesn't mean a perfect life, but to be honorable means we strive to have integrity.   We strive to be godly. We strive to do what we say we're going to do. We strive to live up to our divine nature as God called mothers and fathers and husbands.   And so, I would think to me that is the most important, because if you live an honorable life, then you honor God. You honor your marriage covenant. You honor your children by treating them and speaking to them with honor.   You honor your job. You make sure that you have integrity at work and that you're dependable. And the same goes for us women.   You know, but I think I think we all struggle with selfishness. I mean, that is ultimately what we struggle with every day is what do I want? What do I need?   What's important to me versus trying to live a selfless life for our spouse, for our family? Anyway, it would be interesting to do that survey, but I think what's so kind of funny about the kindness is that whenever I read that survey results that I had read years ago, when I say that to a crowd of women. And men, but when I say that to the crowd, you can always see I just see this rippling of women making this kind of gesture.   Or because they know that they could be more kind, because usually we can be kind to everyone in the world. But in the walls of our home, we struggle more with just kindness.   Laura Dugger: (47:37 - 48:00) And so if we go further upstream than before we're married, if that's what God has for us, what are practical ways that we can teach and instill kindness in our children and honorable character? Or any other practical tips for conduct?   Monica Irvine: (48:00 - 53:03) Yeah, well, I love when I do a workshop at a convention on a family of service, because honestly, when we have our children in our home, it's practice ground. We have once again a few years to help them learn to love the Lord and to love others. You know, the two great commandments, love me and love others.   Well, to me, the best way to teach our children to love God and love others is to get our children out and serving others. Because, as you know, typically, like, for instance, when someone calls us and says, “Oh, hey, Monica, hey, would you mind, you know, the Smith family, they just had their new baby. Do you think you could cook dinner for them one night next week?”   If you're like me, I'm going to say yes. And then I'm going to hang up. And then I'm going to have that anxiety because already my week is so full and I was already stressed out about how I was going to get all the things done I needed to get done.   And now I've just added another thing. And I'm not saying there are not times that we don't need to say no, because we absolutely have to say no sometimes. But my point is, I cook the dinner and I go drop it off.   And as I'm pulling, as we are pulling away from that home, how do we feel? Do we feel better or do we feel worse? Do we feel happy or do we feel sad?   Honestly, almost 100 percent of the time, y'all, we're going to feel happier. We're going to feel grateful. We're going to be grateful that we had the opportunity to cook that dinner for that sweet family.   We're going to be reminded of how sweet the Lord is to give us opportunities to be His hands and His feet and His mouth here on the earth. And so, we want our children to learn to love. To love others, but it takes practice.   It's not until you serve again and again and again that you start to realize that the secret to being happy, the secret to having peace in your life and love abounding in your home is when we lose ourselves in the service of others. It's the secret to fixing siblings arguing with each other. It's the secret to helping husbands and wives draw closer together and have more love for one another.   It's the secret to less contention overall, to more peace, to more joy and happiness is to lose ourselves in the service of others. And so, to me, if you want to raise if we want to raise honorable, kind, generous, compassionate, empathetic human beings, they've got to lose themselves. To find themselves and define God.   And so, yeah, I think that's the secret. And of course, Jesus Christ tried to teach us that over and over and over again. He tried to teach His disciples over and over again that if you love me.   Then love my sheep, feed my sheep, teach my sheep. And what's interesting is that you all. The more we do that, the more we serve and love others.   Do you know what I believe? I believe it's kind of like the Grinch. Remember when the Grinch's heart grew?   That's real. That's really what happens. The God expands our ability to love others.   And in doing that, it actually expands our deep love of God. I think it's so fascinating that that's the fruit of service is a deeper and abiding love of Jesus Christ. It seems like it would be the opposite, right?   Well, I've got to love Jesus more in order to have a greater desire to serve. But it's the opposite. He wants you to go serve when you don't really feel like it.   And he wants you to go serve when it's not convenient. And your kids are crying and no one wants to go rake her yard. And then the fruit of acting in faith and trusting God is the love.   Laura Dugger: (53:05 - 53:34) That's what I would do. That's so good. Such a good medicine or anecdote to selfishness and issues we're having in the home with our children and for ourselves.   Well, Monica, you have shared so much goodness with us throughout this conversation. Can you explain how you can help partner with us as parents to help us teach our children etiquette at neutral times? Like you said, when their hearts are softer?   Monica Irvine: (53:35 - 56:52) Yes. Yeah. So, we've got some awesome resources, parents.   And number one is we do have a parenting course called Rise Up Parenting. And it's just this beautiful 52-week course that you get lifetime access to in case it takes you three years to get through your 52 weeks. But it is a course for mom and dad, or mom, or dad by themselves.   But it's just a beautiful way to help parents focus on one parenting skill a week. I've learned that when we have purposeful parenting, when we focus on one improvement at a time because we can get so overwhelmed, like we want we want to teach our kids to be selfless and that be ambitious and to serve and share. And I mean, it's just, it's endless.   But the Lord is a house of order. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a house of order. And so as long as we're going in the right direction, y'all, we are successful.   And so, this parenting course teaches a biblical principle and then a parenting principle that are related and allows you to just make little increment steps of improvement. Because when mom and dad improve, it blesses your children. So that's the first resource.   And then the other two most popular resources is we just have two programs. We have a program called FUNdamentals4Kids that targets children preschool through about third grade. And it's so fun.   It's just these wonderful, fun board games, flashcards, songs, stories, crafts, where we try to encourage you to twice a week set aside 15 minutes of your school day for an official manners activity and watch what happens. So, we've organized it for you. And for the little kids, we found out that if they can play with it, sing about it, make some food with it, that it helps them to go, “Mom, let's do a manners lesson.”   And then they don't even know that they're being taught these beautiful, wonderful skills. So that is so wonderful. And then for kids about fourth grade through 12th grade, we have a course called Life Skills for You.   And it's just so fun and it's so effective. Basically, it's 142 little three-minute lessons. We once again just try to get you to commit to twice a week sitting down with your family, watching a three-minute lesson where I'm teaching the etiquette skill.   Plus, we show teenagers doing the skill the wrong way and the right way. So, it's kind of funny, but it just creates some really great conversation with the family. And so those are our top three selling product lines.   And you can find all of that on our website, theetiquettefactory.com.   Laura Dugger: (56:53 - 57:15) Thank you for sharing. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And Monica, you may be familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, this is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce? Yeah.   Oh, that's a hard one.   Monica Irvine: (57:15 - 59:06) I thought about this and I'm like, it's so hard. You all. Honestly, my savvy sauce is Jesus Christ.   It just is. I know sometimes we want the answer to be something else, but in all practical terms, it's Jesus. Meaning I start my morning out every day with Jesus.   I end every night with Jesus. I pray throughout the day and ask Him to help me make a decision. And I thank Him for all the beautiful things that happened to me throughout the day.   And I just He is this person, this real person that is at my side every day, all day, I hope. And that's how I do anything. That's why I am the mother that I am.   Not that I'm the best mother, but because of Him, I can mother and because of Him, I can be a good wife. And because of Him, I can be a good friend and I can minister to others through The Etiquette Factory. It's just it is Him.   And, you know, sometimes people will ask me, “Monica, I I want to have the knowledge you have or I want to be able to whatever parent the way it sounds like you parent.” And I'm like, you guys know, it's just it's called Jesus Christ. And Jesus will tell us all things that we should do.   And so my sauce is having a relationship with Jesus Christ. It truly is well said.   Laura Dugger: (59:06 - 59:24) And, Monica, you are such a gifted communicator and your heart of compassion is evident in your outward behavior. It's been such a joy to get to spend an hour with you today. So, I just want to say thank you for being my guest.   Monica Irvine: (59:24 - 59:43) Oh, thank you, Laura. And it's been such a joy. You're so kind.   And I appreciate the beautiful ministry that you're doing here on The Savvy Sauce. What a blessing for families to be able to just hear these resources that you've created. So, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (59:44 - 1:03:26) Thank you for being a part of it.   One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

280. Implementing the ONE Lifestyle Change that Improves All Aspects of Health with Sue Becker   Isaiah 61:1 AMP “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord has anointed and commissioned me To bring good news to the humble and afflicted; He has sent me to bind up [the wounds of] the brokenhearted, To proclaim release [from confinement and condemnation] to the [physical and spiritual] captives And freedom to prisoners,”   *Transcription Below*   Sue Becker is a gifted speaker and teacher, with a passion to share principles of healthy living in an encouraging way.  She is the co-owner of The Bread Beckers and founder of the ministry, Real Bread Outreach, all dedicated to promoting whole grain nutrition. Sue has a degree in Food Science from UGA and is the author of The Essential Home Ground Flour Book. Sue is a veteran home-schooling mom with 9 children and 13 grandchildren. She and her husband Brad, live in Canton, GA. Through her teaching, countless families have found improved health.   Sue's Instagram: @suebreadbeckers Sue's Website Sue's Podcast   Questions and Topics We Cover: You've supplied us with the knowledge, so now let's move on to the wisdom, which is learning how to apply what we now know. What equipment and grain do we need to get started so that this is possible to incorporate into our lifestyle? Once we mill the grain, how long do we have to use it before it loses its nutritional benefits? How long does it typically take to experience benefits from this lifestyle change and what health benefits can we expect to experience?   Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce: 14 Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe 26 Practical Tips to Eating Dinner Together as a Family with Blogger and Cookbook Co-Author, Rachel Tiemeyer 33 Pursuing Health with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan 129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri 205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness) 212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee 256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe 261 Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice 270 Female Sex Hormones, Periods, and Perimenopause with Emily Macleod-Wolfe 275 Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:45) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode.   If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.   I'm thrilled to get to be back with Sue Becker as my guest today. Make sure you go back and listen to part one, which we recorded last week. She was incredible explaining the one nutritional difference that will change everything. And now today, we're going to learn all of the practicals of how to actually implement this into our lifestyle.   Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Sue.   Sue Becker: (1:45 - 1:46) Thank you. It's so good to be with you again. I can't wait to share even more.   Laura Dugger: (1:46 - 1:52) Well, last time you shared just incredible testimonies of the powerful difference that one nutritional change can make. And you root everything even back in the Bible, and God has really led you on this journey. So biblical passages about bread or grain or wheat appear hundreds of times throughout the Bible. But do you have any specific ones that come to mind that God has highlighted in your own life?   Sue Becker: (1:53 - 11:48) Yes, for sure. Shortly after, you know, I think I mentioned there's a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death. And we don't necessarily relate that to bread, but it certainly does describe what happened, you know, when the steel rolling mills displaced the local miller.   And then one, another one is Proverbs 23, verses 1 through 3, I think somewhere thereabouts. You know, white bread has always been around. The wealthy, the royalty, they wanted fluffier bread and they found a way.   And they knew that they could make these sieves, if you would, out of reeds, and they would sift the bran and germ out to produce fluffier bread. But only the wealthy could afford that. Two reasons.   Only the wealthy could afford servants or slaves or bakers, you know, to bake their bread for them. That was the royalty. But then also the poor people, when they sift the bran and germ away, they lose about 25% of the flour.   So, for 100 bag of grain or, you know, 100 pounds of grain, you are going to end up with 75 pounds of flour, 25 pounds of bran and germ. They couldn't give that up. You know, they couldn't just throw away, discard that food source.   So, they ate what was called dirty bread or peasant bread or whatever that we now pay extra money to get back to. But, you know, when I started milling and I read Proverbs 23 in a different light, because what happened with the steel rolling mills, when the white flour came on the scene for the first time in the history of the world, which you won't read about this in a history book, white bread, white flour became food for rich and poor alike. And that's why we began to see sickness and disease.   The wealthy had it. And, you know, the royalty had it. But Proverbs 23 says, “Be careful when you sit down to the king's table. Do not crave his dainties and his delicacies.” And I always thought that might be things like, you know, squid or, you know, eyeballs or foods that caviar, you know, things that we couldn't afford. But dainties and delicacies to me now describes white flour, fluffy things, bread and pastries and cakes.   So, God says don't crave his dainties and delicacies. They are deceitful food. And it even says put a knife to your throat lest you be given the gluttony.   We talked last time about bread. People thinking, you know, gaining weight. Well, you know, the white flour dainties and delicacies.   Yes, they lead to gluttony. So that was one that really came to mind. And then, of course, Isaiah 55 verse two. “Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread and your earnings for what does not satisfy?” And so, I always thought, oh, Lord, I didn't know it wasn't bread. You know, I didn't know that's what I was spending my money on.   But just a few weeks ago, I was thinking about that verse again in a little different light. Like He was saying, why are you spending your money for that which is not bread? We're spending all this money moving away from bread on food, the keto, the fat, the all these the meat.   You know, we're spending our money on all these things that aren't bread. They don't satisfy like bread does. So that was a little different light.   Yes, on the one hand, what I thought I was spending my money on. I didn't know it wasn't bread. But then now all these anti-bread, anti-grain diets.   Why are you God saying, why are you spending your money on all of that on and your earnings for what does not satisfy? So that was a little different light on that picture. And of course, then Haggai chapter one, verse five says, “You sow much, but you reap little you eat, but no one is full. You drink, but you never have enough. And he who earns wages, earns it to put it in a bag with holes in it.” And you may be going, how does that relate to bread?   We spend all this money on food, and I air quotes “food stuff” that is taking our health away, making us sick. To me, that's a bag with holes in it. Because then what do we spend the rest of our money on health care, medicine, whatever.   So those were some, some pretty profound scriptures that God showed me. And 1 Timothy 4:1-3. It says that the Holy Spirit declares that on the last day, some will turn away from the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits.   And listen to these doctrines of demons. This is the scripture saying this misled by the hypocrisy of liars who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared by those who believe and have a clear knowledge of the truth. That's pretty powerful.   That's pretty powerful because you can grill yourself a steak. You can eat an apple all by yourself. You can eat fruits and vegetables all by yourself.   You're not going to make one roll. You're not going to make one piece of bread. Bread was made to be shared. And even the word companion means with bread. Did you ever think about that? So, um, that's, that's pretty powerful that in the end times and, you know, wherever you are with that, but we have to believe that there are teachings that are teaching us to for, you know, to not eat foods that God created to be shared and bread is at the top of that list.   So those are some powerful bread scriptures that that have just ministered to me. There's, there's just so many, you know, and Jesus John 6:35, I typically sign my book that way. Jesus says, “I am the real bread of life. And he who comes to me shall be satisfied” in Isaiah 61. That's a verse the Lord gave me so many years ago. And, you know, most people know it, the spirit of the Lord God is upon me because he's anointed me to preach the gospel, you know, and I'll never forget.   I had the great privilege of sharing the gospel one time, which is not something I normally do. And at a women's homeless shelter in Atlanta, and I saw in seven or eight people after I shared gave their life to the Lord. And I was like, oh, this is what I want to do.   I don't want to talk constipation and poop anymore. And surely it's not important. And I really got kind of down about it.   I was like, yes, I want to go share the gospel. This can't be important. And a couple of days later, after that wonderful, glorious experience, I mean, I literally wanted to go hand tracks out on the street corner.   I just wanted to be one of those people. And I was supposed to be going to speak at a women's Bible study, giving my what my children lovingly call mom's poop talk. And I got up and I was like; I didn't want to do it.   And I just cried out to the Lord. I was like, I don't want to talk poop anymore. There's so much more in me besides this.   And surely this can't be important. And again, cried out to the Lord. Again, just turned to my regular Bible reading.   And my verse of the day on my calendar was Isaiah 61, one through three or four, whatever it is. The spirit of the Lord God is upon you. He's anointed and qualified me to preach the gospel.   And I was like, yes. And it says to bind up and heal the broken heart. And I was like, yes, that was those ladies.   I know this is what you want me to do. And then it said, proclaim Liberty to the captives. And in my Amplified version in parentheses, it said spiritual and physical.   And what God spoke so to my heart, he goes, the message that I'm sending you to speak today is to set my people physical captives free. He said, my people aren't spiritually captive. Their physical captives held in captivity by every kind of sickness, disease, snotty nose, constipation, irritable bowel, diverticulitis, whatever.   Big ones and little ones, you know, health issues. And that I got up and I just renewed my passion. And I was like, okay, Lord, this is what you've called me to do.   So that was that was the real game changer. It kind of a game changer for me. I was beginning to see the unimportance of it.   And now, after all these years, I mean, when people hug you and with tears in their eyes, sorry, and tell you that you that you're teaching save their life. Now, I know what God was talking about. And I still love to share the gospel.   I still love to teach the word. And I know God's anointed me to do that as well. But this is definitely where God has called me.   And another time when I was out speaking, he shared and I was, you know, kind of questioning. And it says in Matthew, when the multitudes, when Jesus saw the multitudes coming to him to heal him, you know, to seek healing. It says he had compassion on them because they were harassed, distressed, bewildered and helpless and dejected like sheep without a shepherd.   And it said, and then he goes on to say, and he's telling his disciples, the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. And he spoke to me then and he said, the laborers are few. There's not many out there at that time.   There were not many people out there teaching what I teach, teaching other things, maybe, but not about the bread, real bread. So those have been some life-changing scriptures that have just given me a heart and a passion to keep going. And then, of course, it's the bread stories that just come.   Laura Dugger: (11:49 - 12:19) So it's incredible. So profound. And I'm with you.   I love the Amplified version. Yes. You've supplied us with so much knowledge today and last week.   But now I'd love to move on to the wisdom portion, which is learning how to apply what we now know. So Sue, if we're just getting started, what equipment do we need? And then how is that going to be possible for us to incorporate it into our lives?   Sue Becker: (12:20 - 17:03) So like I said last time, I think we ended with keep it simple. Grain mill, top of the list. I once heard a lady.   She taught a little bit on milling, too. And she said, “I tell everybody you want to change the health of your family. Start with a grain mill.”   And like I say, over and over, I have never seen one dietary change make such profound and extensive, immediate, noticeable, across the board health benefits. So start with a grain mill and you don't have to have a barn. You don't have to have a live by a creek and a gristmill and all of that.   It will sit right on your counter. And still today, after 34 years of milling my own grain, my grain mill still has prime real estate on my counter. And it's the most valuable kitchen tool in my kitchen.   I love the Wonder Mill particularly. We do sell other mills. The NutriMill is a great mill as well.   I like the stainless steel milling heads because they're fast, they're very clean, and they just get the job done very quickly. Stone mills have gotten very trendy and popular. We sell those as well.   They're slower, might be better for a smaller family. They do, you know, have a broader spectrum of from pre-cracking, cracking the grain to very fine flour. And that's why some people are attracted to that.   But if I want cracked grain or coarse ground grain, I just use my blender, which I don't think too many people don't have a blender. You know, we all have blenders. So that's an easy fix for me.   And it's just, to me, the micronizing or the stainless steel milling head mills, the Wonder Mill, the NutriMill, they're just so easy to use. Put them together. I mean, they just snap together, turn it on, pour the grain in.   There's no calibrating, no, you know, adjusting the milling heads and everything. They're just easy, and they're fast, and they mill a lot of flour at once. So if you have a large family like mine, you know, I milled 12 cups of flour in less than a minute by the time I've got my other ingredients ready.   So that's top of your list. And then you're going to have to have some kind of grain. So, like I said, that was the next thing people go, where do I get grain?   And I'm like, well, I guess we need to sell grain, too. So we sell just about every kind of grain or bean here at Bread Beckers. We sell it in food-grade plastic buckets so that it is storable.   You want to keep your grain protected from moisture and bugs and, of course, rodents. So it's grown outside, so there could be bugs undetected in your grain that you might buy in a bag or something like that. But it's really important to protect your investment.   Hard wheat is going to be your grain for yeast bread. So we have hard red and hard white. We do sell also kamut and spelt.   Like my sourdough bread I've got working on right now is a combination of kamut and red wheat, which is one I really, really like. But those are more ancient grains. Those are in the bread-making category of wheat, so you could do that.   And then if you know you're going to make cakes and cookies and things like that, I highly recommend getting some soft wheat. Well, we get ours is grown in Montana, but they have to irrigate to make it soft wheat, so it is grown. We do have a soft red wheat that is grown here in Georgia that we sell and then a soft white wheat that we also sell.   And that's good for your cakes, cookies, brownies, biscuits, things like that. And then corn, mill your own corn. You've never tasted cornbread until you mill your own.   These are just easy quick bread recipes. You can find them all in my book, The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book. So that's it.   And then, of course, basic list of getting started items. Beyond that, you might already have oil. We use extra virgin olive oil.   That's just my oil of choice. There's some other sunflower seed oil, grapeseed oil, avocado oil. Those are good oils.   I just don't need another oil. We import our olive oil from Greece, and it is truly extra virgin olive oil. Unfortunately, the olive oil industry is not very reputable, so you have to know what you're getting.   And we actually were able to visit the olive oil factory and I guess you call them orchards, the fields, two years ago. And that was really great. It's Creighton Mills.   It's a fifth-generation family-owned olive oil company and very, very reputable. And so we know that what we're getting is truly extra virgin. Yeah, you had a question?   Laura Dugger: (17:04 - 17:13) Yeah, just with that, because it is such a corrupt industry, can you elaborate a little bit more about what's special about that?   Sue Becker: (17:13 - 21:07) Yeah, so to be labeled or designated extra virgin olive oil, it has to have a percent acidity. And I do have a podcast on my Sue's Healthy Minutes, “The Fact About Fats”, and I explain what that means. It's not a pH, but it's a percent acidity of 0.8%. And that's a measurement of the, and I'll go into more detail in my podcast, but simply it's just a measurement of the amount of oxidation of those fatty acids that are found in the olives that has taken place. So, 0.8 means that it's a measurement of how much there. And so, it has to meet that requirement to be extra virgin olive oil. Anything less than that is just better and better, you know.   So, our olive oil, excuse me, from the Isle of Crete is where our olive oil comes from in Greece. The basic one we have, the Agrelia, they guarantee that it's 0.8 or less. Most of the time it's 0.5. Then we have one that's 0.2 and so on. And we do have a certified organic. The problem is, and I know not everybody's going to run out and get their olive oil from us, but here's what you want to look for. You want to look for an olive oil that is bottled in the country of origin.   Because the disreputable oil companies, when they bring the olive oil in in barrels and take it, it might be checked there at the dock or whatever. But then when they take it to their factory and bottle it, no one pays attention there. So, they are mixing it with other oils oftentimes.   We used to sell oil that was labeled extra virgin cold pressed olive oil. We had it tested and the results came back that it was less than 1% olive oil. So that tells you it's, you know, the oils you're buying on the shelf, chances are if they're bottled here in America.   Now that I know California makes some. There's actually an olive oil company in South Georgia around Vidalia. They've learned that olives will grow there very well.   And so there's some reputable companies in the United States. So, you know, you just need to know your company. But typically, if it comes from another country and bottled here, you might need to be cautious about that.   So, yeah. So that's what you need to look for. So, I love olive oil.   Contrary to what people try to say that they are selling other oils, olive oil has a perfectly fine smoke point. And you can fry in it. I stir fry in it.   I fry my doughnuts in it. You can take it up to 400 degrees without any issues at all. I do use coconut oil from time to time.   If I'm trying to make something non-dairy, you know, I'll use it in place of butter. But then I also use real butter. So those are my fats that I look for.   And like I said, there's, you know, grapeseed oil is fine. Avocado oil is fine. I think we do sell an avocado oil.   But I don't need a lot of other. Those three, olive oil, coconut oil, and butter are just fine. Yeah.   Okay. And then raw unpasteurized honey. I sweeten my bread with honey and bake with honey if honey will work.   And in most places it will. Where it gets a little tricky working with honey is cakes and cookies and brownies, things like that. I tell people things that have more sugar than flour, you might want to eat in moderation.   And that's where, you know, some alternatives, less refined sweeteners. And we use honey granules and sucanat products for brown sugar and white sugar. So those are just some simple things.   Laura Dugger: (21:08 - 24:17) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser Team is a RE-MAX agent of Central Illinois. And she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors.   For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831. And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer.   When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home. And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process.   This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team. The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market. But Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell.   She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process. And she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she thought of everything.   And Sue's continued generosity was astonishing. I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Ms. Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home. So whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time or looking to upgrade or downsize or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress-free and that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made. So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com.    Thanks for your sponsorship.   I'd love to go into a few of the other ingredients but first if we're even just thinking of the grain ideally we would get to come and visit you and get it from you. We've gone through all the steps.   But if we live elsewhere, two questions. How would we start a co-op so that we could have grain or how do we find out if one's already in our area? And then also are there any fear of glyphosate or any other issues with grain?   Sue Becker: (24:17 - 32:44) Oh wow, that's a loaded question. So, first of all, let's just say if you don't live close to us, we ship buckets of grain every day. UPS, we do.   But the shipping is quite expensive. UPS does not care about the cost of the product. They care about the weight.   And so, once we get it boxed up in the box that we have to ship it in, it's 49 pounds. So, it can cost anywhere from $25 to $30 just in shipping for that bucket of grain. Our grain prices are still very competitive, a lot less than a lot of people out there.   And we do carbon dioxide package our buckets of grain. So, we guarantee that they are bug free. You don't have to put your grain in the freezer.   You don't have to put diatomaceous earth or bay leaves. We've already done it. That's what the carbon dioxide gas has done.   And once it does its job, it's done its job. It doesn't matter now if you open the bucket and go in and out, in and out, in and out. But we realized back, I think I shared our Joseph vision of providing God's people with grain.   Way back, we started something called co-ops. As we traveled and spoke, people would ask that very question. Okay, great.   I'm buying the grain from you now, but what do I do when you leave? You know, I'm in Richmond, Virginia. I'm in Miami, Florida or Orlando, whatever.   So, we developed co-ops. And you can go on our website, breadbeckerscoop.com, and find co-ops in your area. And what that is, we have a coordinator, some person that kind of handles and facilitates the ordering.   If you join a co-op that's the closest to you, you'll get on, you know, there's no cost to join. And you're never obligated to order. If you don't need to order in that cycle, that's fine.   We deliver to each area four times a year. I'm sorry, three times a year, every four months. And so, you'll get an email saying your ordering window is this month.   So, you order, say, in August for a September delivery or June for a July delivery. And everybody's on a schedule. We have them grouped together.   And then you can order as much or as little as you want. And it greatly reduces the shipping cost per bucket. And you typically get a discount for ordering with the co-op as a group.   So that's a great advantage of a co-op. If you can't find one in your area, then email support@breadbeckers.com, and we'll send you the information of starting a co-op in your area. Pretty much all you have to do, because it's pretty streamlined, when people order they just go online, order, and pay us.   But then it's put together as your co-op. And you just have to facilitate the delivery and then making sure everybody knows to come get their product from you. But that's the way it works.   So that would be a great opportunity to get grain and whatever. And like I said, we ship anything on our website you can get through the co-op, most everything, really, really saves on shipping. And then we have certified organic grain here.   And, of course, it can have no chemical, herbicides, pesticides, fertilizers used at all. Contrary to what you may read and hear and see on the internet, wheat is not genetically modified, not at all. Now it was approved for testing and trials last year in August, but up until that point none at all was here in the United States.   And it's still in the trial and testing. I'm praying that it never comes out on the commercial market. But right now, there is no genetically modified wheat, especially that we offer or that's offered out there commercially.   That being said, that means wheat is not roundup ready. If it was sprayed with glyphosate, it would kill the plant. Now, non-organic farmers can use it on their soil to kill, you know, whatever's been growing.   So pre-planting, then once they harvest it, they can use it after harvest. So, there is an issue with, you know, using glyphosates in our non-organic farming techniques. It is very uncommon, contrary to what you hear people say, for a wheat farmer to use roundup or glyphosate as a desiccant to harvest their grain.   It's very, very uncommon in the United States. Colder climates where there's a chance they might lose it to bad weather or whatever, they may. But even still there's other things they prefer to do instead of that because that's expensive.   It's not cheap. You know, you're talking 30,000-acre farms, these, you know, big wheat farmers. So, it's very, very uncommon.   And you can even find that information on the USDA website, that it's less than 3% ever use it like that. Now, like I said, there are other crops and farmers that use it pre and post harvest, but we're very comfortable with our grain suppliers. Most of our wheat comes from Montana.   It's cold. And they still practice pretty traditional farming methods, tilling things under and planting cover crops and things like that. But if you're really, really concerned, then buy certified organic.   I mean, you know, for the price difference, yes, I think it's like $12, but that's for 42 pounds of grain. So, you know, but like I said, we are very comfortable with our farmers, with our suppliers. Our oat supplier says that they spot check and make sure that, you know, no glyphosate is used even on their non-organics.   I think the problem with there, and people are going to say, oh, yeah, but they tested all these cereals and these oat products and found that they all had residual glyphosate. You've got to remember; those are your big food companies. Those are your big pharma, your big, the other pharma, F-A-R-M-E, you know, M-A.   There's no telling, you know, what they do. But, you know, glyphosate use is a significant issue. I want people to understand that.   But it's more in the farming techniques of desiccating after harvest, instead of used to farmers after harvest, the stubbles all there and corn stalks are all there. They would till it all under and then that would decay and, you know, help nourish the soil. Now they're going in, and this is non-organic farming, they're going in and spraying the fields and then just using seed drills.   Not as prevalent, I don't believe, with wheat, but it is used a lot with soybeans, corn, what else, cotton. Cotton is really bad. And there's not a lot you can do.   I mean, we just have to stay informed. But I hate it when I see people passing on misinformation about making it sound like it's just a blanket procedure that's done of desiccating these massive wheat fields, you know. And I've seen pictures; people will show them dead in the field.   Well, the wheat turns very golden and dries out, you know, before harvest. And then once they harvest it, it dies right there in the field. So, it's just kind of a misnomer.   But when in doubt, buy organic. So there. But, you know, I tell people if you're going to avoid toxins and glyphosate the way it's being used in our country today, you would basically have to never leave your house, go naked and probably never eat any food at all, you know.   And think about like lawns and golf courses and things like that. If you live around that, you're being exposed a good bit. So, wheat is actually detoxifying.   So, it passes through the body absorbing toxins. So, I think you're safe with wheat and, you know. But again, buy organic if you're concerned.   Laura Dugger: (32:45 - 32:57) Love that explanation. And then because I think of the other ingredients and bread and even the offerings that you have, what should we be aware of when it comes to salt and emulsifiers?   Sue Becker: (32:58 - 36:23) Yeah. So salt is something I studied later, you know, after I, you know, I, it made sense why they started, you know, separating the bran and germ from the flour too. So, the flour wouldn't spoil, but I'm like, salt doesn't spoil.   Why would they refine salt and do some digging and do some research and you find that natural mined mineral salt has trace minerals that we need, but it's the sodium chloride that makes the salty flavor. So, they, they have learned that they can extract those trace minerals out of the mind mineral salt and sell that to other industries for minerals and leave us with the sodium chloride and it's perfectly salty. So why not do that?   And then so that it will rain, well, it will, you know, “when it rains, it pours” the, you, you're probably too young to know that slogan, but that was a big one when I was growing up. They heat treat the salt so that it does not readily absorb moisture. So the crystals are harder so that when it rains or it's humid, it will pour unlike your unrefined salt that will tend to clump up if it's humid.   So that's what started happening to our salt. And I didn't believe this, but I did just a few weeks ago, go to the store because I haven't bought salt in years. Cause I get it.   We sell Redmond's natural mined mineral salt that comes from Utah, but I went to the store and sure enough, they put anti-caking agents sometimes in some of the brands of salt, dextrose, which is a sugar. Who would have thought that? And just know that you know, the heat treatment is makes it where it doesn't readily absorb moisture.   So that's why you tend to hold fluids when you eat a lot of salty foods. So, it's trying to help your body be able to utilize it. And while we're on salt, I hear a lot of people, they'll ask me, can I make the bread without salt?   My doctors put me on a low salt diet. First of all, that's concerning, but I want to say to you, just getting rid of processed foods, it will greatly diminish your sodium intake from bread to they have, you know, when things are so denatured that they, you know, they smash it, they cook it, they boil it, they take all this out and that out. Well, then it's flavorless.   So, they have to sweeten it and salt it to make you want to even buy it again. So, if you look at ingredient or not ingredient labels, but nutrition labels on processed foods, and I'm talking canned fruits, vegetables, bread products, and all these things, you will see that the sodium levels are much higher than the potassium levels. Well, in nature, that is not the way it is in, in your fresh fruits and vegetables.   Your potassium level is typically twice your sodium level where, so read your labels on your food and you'll see that sodium is typically twice the potassium in processed foods. So that's what I encourage people. You know, you can make bread without salt.   You probably won't like it. It'll be kind of tasteless. If you need to read, if you feel more comfortable reducing the amount of salt, then do that.   But most importantly, quit eating processed foods. That's going to greatly reduce your salt intake and then use a natural mind mineral salt that your body can utilize. So that's salt.   What was the other thing?   Laura Dugger: (36:24 - 36:25) Emulsifier.   Sue Becker: (36:25 - 40:36) Raw unpasteurized honey is what I use. I recommend. And then the emulsifier.   I think you must be talking about lecithin. Lecithin is totally an optional ingredient. You can make great bread without lecithin, but I'm going to tell you, you can make really great bread by adding a little bit of lecithin to your bread dough.   It's a natural emulsifier. It is what's called a phospholipid. It has an acetylcholine that is what it's made of.   And it, it, what it does in your body, it breaks down fat and cholesterol into small enough particles that can get through your capillary wall and into your bloodstream and into your cells and your tissue. It is found in any type of unrefined food that has oil. So, your eggs, your milk, your oils, your unrefined keyword, unrefined oils, and guess where else?   Grains and beans. It's in the, the germ portion of your grains and beans. And that is the nutrient that even without adding it to your bread, it is there already.   And that's the nutrient that I discovered brought brings down cholesterol, blood level cholesterol, because, and somebody kind of argued when I said that one time and I'm like, no, no, no, no. I didn't say cholesterol was bad. Cholesterol is not a bad guy.   I like the way one biochemist puts it. She said, it's just the pig that got stuck in the barn door. It actually does.   It gets stuck in our blood vessels because its big fat molecules are typically big. We need that lecithin in unrefined foods that have oil grains being one of those. And one of the most nutrient dense ones is, is your grains and beans and sources of lecithin, so it breaks those down into small enough particles so that they can get out of our blood and into our tissues and our cells where it is so needed.   Cholesterol is a precursor of just about all your sex hormones, all your anti-inflammatory hormones that your body can make. If it has lecithin it helps vitamin D be converted. The sunshine be converted to vitamin D and our body and it makes; it's a part of the fat and protein layer of every cell in your body.   The cell membrane of every cell in your body. So, it's very, very important to get that cholesterol out of the blood into the cell. So that's lecithin okay.   That was a lot of information. What does it do to our bread? The very same thing it does in your body.   It breaks the oil down. You've all heard the saying oil and water don't mix. Well, it breaks the oil down so that it is small enough particles.   So, it will go mix into your dough a little better and it will make your dough very smooth, very silky. It will make your bread so very soft. And it's the same.   It's the reason they use it in the food industry. They put it in salad dressings so that oil and vinegar will, will mix and stay mixed a little bit better. They started using it in the margarine industry because they're mixing milk and, and milk fats and water.   So, they put the lecithin in there. Now I'm not saying don't eat margarine. That's not what I said.   They put it in Reese's peanut butter cups. That's what makes that chocolate so smooth and creamy. I'm not saying don't eat Reese's peanut butter cups to get your lecithin, but I'm just explaining that's what it does.   It's in your body and outside of your body and your food, and it will make your bread and rolls so soft. And we actually learned when we had a bakery years ago that it helps your bread retain moisture. It keeps it from drying out so quickly. But it's one of those things in Haiti and Tanzania, they don't make bread with lecithin that's an expense that we don't need. But if you want some really, really soft bread and really help my tortilla dough be really smooth and silky and make those tortillas just press out really well. So that's, that's why we use it there.   You can use an egg has lecithin as well. I use both an egg and lecithin, and I have really, really soft bread. So just depends on what you're going for.   I don't typically put it in my sourdough cause that's a different texture. And I don't typically put oil in my sourdough bread.   Laura Dugger: (40:36 - 41:26) So yeah, it just depends on what you're doing there. Okay. That's so good to know.   And with the fresh milled grain, I know that it loses nutritional value each day. And I think you've recommended don't let it go more than three days. You'll have to discard it if you don't use it in that time.   And it makes me just wonder, then I'm going to link to a previous episode that we did on preparing food for our family, because one of the practices I'm thinking of was whatever you're making, make double and freeze half. So, Sue, I'm curious then with the nutritional value, if the freshly milled grain that we use as the flour is used in our baked goods or our bread, but then we put it in the freezer to be consumed at a later time. Does that compromise any of the nutritional value?   Sue Becker: (41:27 - 45:57) Right? Not in, not that I have read and studied what we have to know that as soon as that grain is milled into flour, then now you've exposed the nutrients, the oil and all these to the air and oxidation begins to take place. You might not see it in flour, but you've all seen it in a banana or apple.   You cut it, it starts turning dark right away. So, there's a lot of discrepancy and different viewpoints out there on how long that flour until the flour spoils. Well, that would be kind of like that apple is not spoiled, but definitely oxidation has taken place.   So, years ago, I read some information that in the first day, you can lose as much as 45% by the third day, maybe as much as 90%. I don't, I don't have that information anymore. You know, I never thought I'd be speaking and teaching, so I don't quote it a lot, but I did contact a university, and they said most of the oxidation is going to take place in those first few days after milling.   So exact numbers they didn't give me. But now I will say this, I would never throw flour away. So, I'm not going to say it's bad for you.   And some people say six months to a year is the shelf life of that flour. You're not going to lose your protein. You're not going to lose your fiber.   It's still probably the most nutrient dense flour that you can use and buy. But I will say this, your best bet is once the bread is baked from everything I have studied, the nutritional loss is minimal. So, if you need to make bread ahead, have a baking day, then bake your bread, freeze your bread or whatever you need to do so that it, most of the time, my bread will last for five or six days.   Well, I say it won't mold in that time. Most of the time we eat it before then. So that would, that would be your best bet.   Also storing bread, you want to either freeze it or leave it at room temperature. You don't want to store bread at refrigeration in the refrigerator. It will dry it out and cause it to go stale.   Now, of course, if you have meat or something like that in there that needs to be refrigerated, of course, refrigerated muffins, little higher moisture. So, if you're not going to eat those in the, in a day or two or three, they, they might mold. So put them in the refrigerator.   I have learned a little trick with storing muffins, put a paper towel in the container, either the bag or the container that you're storing them in. It'll really keep them from turning gooey. And of course, always let your bread muffins, whatever completely cool before you package them.   But I never throw flour away. If typically, I travel with a grain mill or with bread, if I'm going on a short trip where I'm not taking my mill or whatever with me, then I'll, I'll take bread with me camping. Our family used to camp one.   Can't take my milk. We did more primitive camping, can't tent camping, can't take my mill with me. So, I would mill up a pail of flour to make pancakes and, and things, you know, while we were camping.   So, we would camp a week. I'm certainly not going to go home. I can't use this.   It's older than three days. So, it's not going to hurt you to go that long, but it's, it's the best is mill the flour, bake your bread, mill your flour when you're ready to do your baking and then freeze or store or whatever. But sometimes that's not always possible.   We went snow skiing a few years ago and we did take the bread machine. We went with my daughter and her family and we took, we opted to take the bread machine and we just milled flour and put it in a pail and we made bread every day. So, we couldn't take both.   So, we did it that way. So certainly there's, there's, there's options. So, yeah, but I never throw flour away.   And if I, if I happened to over mill and I have, you know, some charts that show you about how much grain to mill to get, how much flour. So, I rarely over mill, but sometimes you mill and go, Oh, I can't, you know, emergency have to leave. I would bag it, put it in the refrigerator and just try to use it, you know, as first before you use other things.   Or if I have a little bit leftover, I'll keep it in the refrigerator and use it to dust my countertop or whatever, when I'm rolling my bread or dump it in my, you know, with a big batch of bread I'm using and just not worry about it. But 90% of the bread, no more than that, probably 99% of the bread I eat. I mill the flour, make the bread or the muffins or the pancakes or whatever.   Laura Dugger: (45:57 - 47:00) So I'm so grateful for that clarification. I definitely have information. So that is awesome.   I just wanted to let you know, there are now multiple ways to give when you visit TheSavvySauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled support. Our mailing address is also provided.   If you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible, either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com today. Thanks for your support.   So, let's say we've gathered our ingredients. We've made our first recipe. How long does it typically take to experience the benefits from this lifestyle change?   And just to recap, what are some of the health benefits that you may experience?   Sue Becker: (47:01 - 58:28) Well, bowel issues are going to be corrected pretty quickly. For me, constipation was my issue. It was done first day, I ate bread.   Like I said, poop the next morning. A lot of people go, oh, constipation is not my problem. I'm going five times a day or 10 times a day.   So that's more irritable bowel, spastic colon or chronic diarrhea. That may take a week to 10 days to correct, but we've seen people very quickly correct those bowel issues. So, bowel issues are probably the number one, the fastest that you might see.   And I, I, you, I love this story that I tell on a lady, and I used to year. I've been telling it for about 20 years. And I used to call her an older lady, but I'm older than she is.   Then she was then when I called her an older lady. So, this very young lady, she was the mother of a customer of ours. And the customer was her and her husband were missionaries and they were here on furlough.   And she came into the store. Her mother lived in Boston, I believe. And she said, Sue, my mother's having a terrible time.   She it's been on steroids for 10 years for her bowel issues. That you should never do that. And she said, but every time they try to wean her off, she has horrible issues.   She now has bleeding bowels. She can't sleep through the night. She's getting up five times in the night to go to the bathroom.   She can't leave her house. and I hear this a lot. I've had a fella gave testimonies, construction worker.   He goes, “Do you know what? The number one thing I have to find out when I go to check on the job, I have to know where the port-a-john is. I, cause I have to go.”   So anyway, back to this story. They, you know, And she was going to go to the hospital. And that was right about the time.   The gluten-free stuff was coming out. And she said, so she's been told maybe you need to go gluten-free. And she came in and, As a missionary budget, limited budget.   And I said, “You know what? Our ministry will give your mother a grain mill.” She was going.   The daughter was going to spend two weeks with her. And she goes, I'll teach her how to make bread. She thought about it for a minute.   And she goes, I do not know how to make gluten-free bread. Just give me a bucket of red wheat. It can't hurt her.   She's already got bleeding bowels. and if it makes it worse, we'll just stop. She emailed me and said in five days of real bread, her mother was sleeping through the night, no longer having the bowel episodes.   In two weeks while they were there, everything had normalized and her mother had her life back. That's pretty amazing. So, you're gonna see bowel issues correct pretty, pretty quickly.   We've seen that so many times. And then for me, sinus congestion, when your bowels are moving. And we talked about toxins in your colon, sitting in your colon.   We talked about the cancer relationship. But another thing that a lot of people don't realize, what's dumped in your colon and your bowels to be eliminated every day is the stuff your body doesn't want. It's toxic waste, whatever.   And if it's not eliminated every day, it's gonna sit there and get absorbed into your body. And one of your body's reaction to toxins is to make mucus so you can blow it out your nose or cough it up. You know, think about it logically.   When we get sick with a cold or a flu, that organism has made a toxin that our body is trying to get rid of. So, we make all this mucus and that's why you get congestion and you sneeze and you're coughing, you know, so your body can get rid of it. Well, what I learned when I realized I was no longer congested, I started studying.   I was like, how is this happening? Well, that's what I learned, that now that my bowels were dumping and eliminating toxins out of my body every day, I was no longer getting that toxic response of the excess mucus. My body was doing what it needed.   I no longer needed the antihistamines and the decongestants. So that was a big one for me. Of course, the wart story is pretty amazing.   People laughed at me when I told that in the beginning. I knew that it was the bread, that one of my children's warts that he had had for three years went away in the first month. And I discovered that it was the vitamin E that protects every cell in our body and from lots of things, but from being compromised by oxidation.   And if your cell is compromised, it is more susceptible to viral invasion. Viruses are caused by warts. So now that our body, the richest food source of vitamin E is wheat, but it has to be freshly milled.   So now our body was now getting this abundant source of vitamin E, which by the way, we had our bread tested. And one slice provides 100% of your daily vitamin E need. Wow.   Now, I don't necessarily agree with the daily requirement, but still one slice, which no amount of vitamin E was ever put back in enriched bread. But anyway, so I knew that this was the vitamin E protecting the cells and making us less susceptible to viral invasion. And my son's warts went away that he had had for years and in just the first month.   So, we tell that, I would tell that story. And we have now hundreds of wart stories, hundreds of wart stories. The most profound one was lady heard me speak at a homeschool show.   I only have 45 minutes to speak at a homeschool show. And I'm like, woo, a lot of information in that. So, I talk really, really fast.   And sometimes I share this and sometimes I don't. I started to skip my wart story. The Lord, the Holy Spirit just had me stop, tell my wart story.   And I finished that day a little earlier than normal. I never finish early. And I just said, well, you know, does anybody have anything to share?   Two people shared their wart stories. Unbeknownst to me, mom was in my class, walking down the hall to go to another class because there's lots of workshops at these shows, you know. And the Lord told her to come in mine.   There, when I left the room, she was standing outside and told me that. She with tears in her eyes said that she had been praying that God would send her an answer that her daughter had over 500 warts on her. She had had them for, since she was 12 years old, she was now 17.   They had had them all burned off, which they didn't treat the virus. So, they all came back, of course. They had been on different medications.   She goes; they currently have her on ulcer medication saying that maybe it's caused by stress. Okay, so she follows me back to our table where we're making bread. She eats the bread.   She goes, it's delicious. She goes how much is a mill? I told her and she goes; I've paid more than that for one prescription drug that didn't work.   What have I got to lose? I like to cook. We have to eat.   We'll see. Two and a half weeks, two and a half weeks, every wart on that child's body was gone. She had her life back.   She was ashamed. She was embarrassed that she had these nasty patches of warts on her. She wouldn't wear shorts.   She wouldn't swim in public with her friends because she was embarrassed and ashamed. And so that's more than just a wart story. And I tell that the wart story because, I mean, like I said, we have hundreds.   One little girl prayed that God would take her wart away and they heard about the bread and it went away, you know? And because here's my thought. If this bread can improve your resistance to a virus that causes warts that you've had for five, some people 10 years, what other viruses will it protect you from?   That's important to know. And that's what I saw with our, we rarely had colds. We rarely caught flus, you know, from other people.   Not saying we never did, but when we did, we got well very quickly and typically, you know, faster than others. Skin issues. Had a mom in here the other day just say that her, she said, we call your bread, the miracle bread.   Her son had eczema all behind his ears and on his arms, all cleared up. I had another young man come from; he had heard me speak. His wife heard me speak at a conference in Missouri.   They were traveling through, they came to a class, and he came up and said, “Can I hug you?” And I was like, “Well, sure, yeah, go ahead.” And he said, “My wife heard you speak.”   And he said, “what you didn't know is I had this rash on my body and it was stinging. It was burning. Doctor after doctor, medication, steroids, nothing ever helped.”   And he said, “It feels, it felt like fire ants burning me. Had it for years and nothing worked.” His wife heard me speak.   I don't know if she thought, made the correlation with pellagra. I don't know. But anyway, she bought the mill, bought the mixer.   She didn't say anything to me. And he said, within a month, the rash was completely gone. But here's one thing he said.   He goes, “It was so painful. I had gotten to the point where I wanted to die.” That's pretty significant.   And talk, you know, and now within a month, what doctors couldn't fix, the bread did, the nutrients, the B vitamins, the vitamin E, whatever else was in that bread cured his skin issues. And we hear psoriasis, people with psoriasis, it completely goes away in a matter of a few months. Depression, anxiety.   One little girl struggled with depression, and they told her to go gluten-free and it got worse. She was so fearful. She couldn't even sleep in her bedroom.   She had to sleep on the floor in her parents' room. And the mom with tears in her eyes said, within, they decided to not go gluten-free and to try freshly milling. And the little girl is happy and excited and has her life back.   So, I could go on and on and on. And we, you know, just the health of children is powerful to me. And we've seen heart disease.   God says in Psalm 104 that he gave man bread to strengthen and nourish the heart. We've had people say, I mean, well, one lady in particular, this was years ago, I wish I had taken her name to follow up with her, but she said her husband in one month and all she changed was the bread, came off the heart transplant list. She said, the doctor says he's not out of the woods yet, but his heart muscle is functioning so well, can't justify being on the heart transplant list.   And, you know, I read the works of Dr. Wilfred Schutt, world renowned cardiologist. Do you know what he used to treat heart disease? Vitamin E.   And in his book that has nothing to do with milling your own grain and making your own bread, do you know what he attributes heart disease to? When the white flour came on the scene and they started taking the bran and germ out of our flour. He said, we lost the most potent antithrombin, blood thinning and vitamin E for the strength of the heart muscle.   So yeah, we've seen a lot in 35 years or 34 years. It's been amazing. And people write and say, “I know you must get tired of hearing this.” I never get tired of hearing testimonies and stories. And I call them “it's the bread stories” because they tell me it's the bread that's all I've changed and this is what I've seen. And so, and it's, yeah, it's powerful.   Laura Dugger: (58:29 - 58:56) Well, I love because even before we recorded this conversation, we prayed that God would do more than we could ever ask or imagine. And I feel like that's what he has done with bread too. There's still so much more, but you're just to encapsulate a few things, the improved energy, the supported hormones, the ailments that are corrected, there's so much.   And if we want to get started, then can you remind us of your website and what our first step could be today?   Sue Becker: (58:56 - 1:00:59) Yeah, first step, buy a grain mill, buy some grain, start milling your bread. And if you're scared of yeast bread, then make muffins and make pancakes. Machines help, you might all have a mixer that you can go ahead and use to make your yeast breads, but muffins, pancakes, coffee cake, three of my basic ingredients, I mean, my recipes that I started with, that's a wire whisk in a bowl.   You don't need to knead; you don't need to worry about letting it rise. Buy the tools that help you make this a lifestyle. Bread machine, you might see the Zojirushi bread machine behind you, that, I mean, five minutes, mill the flour, five minutes, dump it in, all your ingredients, come back to a baked loaf of bread.   You know, push the start button, come back to a baked loaf of bread. Mixer, for my family, the mixer worked very well because I would mix up dough to make six to nine loaves of bread or six loaves of bread at a time. And I did that twice a week, interspersed with muffins, pancakes, and all of that.   So, keep it simple, get a grain mill, get some grain and get a recipe book that you enjoy and just dive in. You won't be sorry. Go to breadbeckers.com.   You can find a lot of information. Go to our YouTube channel, Bread Beckers YouTube channel. Lots of videos and how-tos and classes, our getting started classes on there.   There's a couple of videos, a basic list of getting started items where I explain to you the hard wheat, the soft wheat, the red wheat, the white wheat, and those things. And I highly recommend, it's a long video, it's three and a half hours long, but it's called Real Bread, the Staff of Life. You can watch it in segments.   Pause me if you need to come back later, but it's very profound information. It's 30 years of studying and research and gleaning the scriptures and science and textbooks. And then Instagram, follow us on Facebook and Instagram.   And then of course, Sue's Healthy Minutes podcast. You will be blessed by all the information there as well as the testimonies that are shared.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:00 - 1:01:19) Incredible. We'll add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. And Sue, as you remember last time, we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight.   And so, as my final question for you again today, what is your savvy sauce?   Sue Becker: (1:01:19 - 1:04:32) So what I want to encourage people today is seek the truth. Use your common sense that God has given you. I want to read a quote by a doctor that promotes healthy living, but I want you to listen to what he says.   Here's the quote. “Damage to the gastrointestinal tract from the overuse of antibiotics, anti-inflammatory drugs like Advil or Aleve, acid blocking drugs, we talked about that last time, like Prilosec or Nexium, combined with our low fiber, high sugar diet leads to the development of celiac disease and gluten intolerance or sensitivity and the resultant inflammation.” Did you hear that?   I absolutely agree with that. All those things cause damage to the gastrointestinal tract and lead to allergies and things like that. “This is why,” now there's where I want you to listen and use your common sense.   “This is why the elimination of gluten can be a powerful way to prevent and reverse this and many other chronic diseases.” Next sentence. “The biggest problem is wheat, the major source of gluten in our diet.”   Did you hear wheat or gluten listed in his causes? No, you did not. He is making an illogical conclusion to his own truth that he just presented.   Wheat didn't cause that. Wheat can actually cure that. And you asked me about a verse that has meant so much to me and powerful, profound verse in the scripture, Deuteronomy 24:6.   In that scripture, it's the law. Sometimes you get bogged down in Deuteronomy. I will never forget when I stumbled, didn't stumble, but I was reading this verse and what God showed me.   In that chapter or in that verse, God gave a law for what you could take as a pledge when someone borrowed something from you. In those days, if someone was gonna borrow something, they would leave you with something of value of theirs as a pledge. I'm gonna return what I borrowed from you or I'm gonna pay you back or whatever.   Listen to God's law. He says, “Do not take a man's upper millstone as a pledge for you would be taking his life.” That is pretty profound.   Someone in the early 1900s took our milling stones, took our mills out of our home and we've been losing our health and our life ever since. Wheat is not the biggest problem. Wheat is the answer.   Freshly milled, of course. So contrary to popular belief, everything you read on the internet is not true. So, dig into God's word, find the discrepancy from what you're hearing in the world and what God's word says and let his truth rule and reign in your life.   That would be my advice.   Laura Dugger: (1:04:33 - 1:05:03) That is so good again, Sue, and thank you for getting mills back in our home and thank you for being my returning energetic and intelligent and faithful guest. You're so humble in your approach and you'r

279. What if this ONE nutritional upgrade changes everything: An Interview with Sue Becker   Proverbs 14:12 NIV "There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death."   *Transcription Below*   Sue Becker is a gifted speaker and teacher, with a passion to share principles of healthy living in an encouraging way.  She is the co-owner of The Bread Beckers and founder of the ministry, Real Bread Outreach, all dedicated to promoting whole grain nutrition. Sue has a degree in Food Science from UGA and is the author of The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book. Sue is a veteran home-schooling mom with 9 children and 15 grandchildren and 1 great-grandchild so far. She and her husband Brad, live in Canton, GA. Through her teaching, countless families have found improved health.   Sue's Instagram: @suebreadbeckers Sue's Website Sue's Podcast   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you tell us about your professional background and share what led to a life-changing discovery?  In addition to helping us feel better, how can this swap also affect our weight? We are told gluten is the enemy, but you teach how wheat can actually be the cure, not the cause. . . Will you elaborate why even people who are sensitive to gluten can still enjoy this bread and experience greater health benefits because of it?   Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce: 14 Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe 26 Practical Tips to Eating Dinner Together as a Family with Blogger and Cookbook Co-Author, Rachel Tiemeyer 33 Pursuing Health with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan 129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri 205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness) 212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee 256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe 261 Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice 270 Female Sex Hormones, Periods, and Perimenopause with Emily Macleod-Wolfe 275 Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Have you heard about this one-of-a-kind experience, the Radiant Faith and Wellness event?   It's going to take place January 30th and 31st at the Cannery in Eureka. I hope you learn more or purchase your tickets on this website or check them out on Instagram at @radiantwellnessevent and make sure you stay tuned to find out what the code is so that you can purchase your discounted tickets.   Happy New Year everyone! I am so excited to get to kick off the year with one of the best episodes I can ever remember.   You are in for a treat today with my guest Sue Becker. She is going to enlighten us to the one achievable, easy-to-implement nutritional change that could change everything. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sue.   Sue Becker: (1:30 - 1:39) Thank you so much for having me. It is a real honor to be able to share my story, share my message with others that can listen and hear.   Laura Dugger: (1:40 - 1:56) Well, it may be one of the times I've most anticipated this conversation, but I'd love to just start by going back. Will you tell us about your professional background and share what led to a life-changing discovery?   Sue Becker: (1:56 - 14:21) Yes, yes. Well, it's a little bit of a long story, but I'll keep it as brief as possible. So, I always say, many years ago, headed off to the University of Georgia as a pre-med student because I loved studying everything about the human body and I wanted to help people and save the world, you know, all the grandiose ideas.   But my big passion was physiology and biochemistry. I loved studying that. Got there and realized, you know, I don't really want to be in school that long and I don't want that type of career after I graduate.   I knew my ultimate goal was to be a stay-at-home mom and I was like, okay, so why am I pursuing this? But I loved the field of study. And so changed my major, got accepted into pharmacy school, spent a quarter there and went, this isn't really what I want to do either.   So then I was led by the Dean of Pharmacy School to the field of food science, which was an up-and-coming industry at the time. I focused my attention more on the microbiology aspect of it and after graduation, I worked for Kraft Foods for almost five years as a bacteriologist in the lab there. I met my husband at the University of Georgia, and we married, actually, our senior year.   And so then, like I said, after I graduated, I started working for Kraft until I had my first child. I did become a mom, for sure. I have nine children, seven biological, two we adopted later in life, ranging in ages now from 45.   My oldest daughter doesn't like me to tell that, but it's too bad. It's what it is. 45 to 29, I believe Olivia is.   Yes, 29. And then I have 19 grandchildren and my very first great grandchild was born just a few weeks ago. So that's been a real blessing and a treat.   But after graduation, because I loved studying, it's funny, I tell everybody I'm a much better student now than I ever was in college. It's funny how you love to study once you don't have to perform with tests and things. But I continued studying physiology, biochemistry, read the works of prominent biochemists of the day and kind of came at everything with believing that we're fearfully and wonderfully made.   Our bodies know what they need and if they're not getting something they need, then chances are we're going to see sickness or lack of health. So, I kind of came at everything from that standpoint. It might be a little simplistic, but I think it's a great starting place.   So, I focused on feeding my family healthy food, you know, supplementing when we needed to. I tell people I grew up Southern. I grew up in a family of cooks and not chefs, but we cooked.   We ate real meat, real vegetables. My husband and I loved to garden. We grew our own corn and peas and beans and tomatoes and all the things.   So, we were eating real food. But we weren't a sickly family for sure, not compared to what others were, but we still had our share, our fair share. And so, we clipped along like this and I, in 1991, because of my interest in physiology, biochemistry, I subscribed to a publication, a health journal.   And the first publication that came into my home was entitled, "How to Greatly Reduce the Risk of Common Diseases." In this journal, the history of white flour was presented. Now, this was very eye-opening information.   Maybe I need to back up a little bit. The food science is not a nutrition degree. It's not a home economic degree.   It's the study of food processing. Everything that has to be done to keep that food safely on the shelf. Something's great. Something's not so great. So, when I read this information, I was like, how did I miss what's done to our bread? Through my studies, I had always read that whole wheat flour was better, but I didn't understand why.   So, in this journal, the history of white flour was presented. All the processing that is done to make that flour sit on the shelf forever, never really. And this is, like I said, what opened my eyes.   I learned that whole grains, real whole grains are the most nutrient-dense food God has given us. But in that journal, I learned that only when they're freshly milled, do they retain all their vital nutrients. You know, like I said, I had read that whole wheat flour was better.   I was trying to buy the stuff in the store, but it was kind of gross, nasty, I say. Didn't make nice bread, certainly not fluffy muffins. So, kind of gave up on that, trying to make bread with the store-bought whole grain flour.   And so, we were just buying whole wheat flour from the store. But I learned in that journal, it's not really what you think it is. And I, so like I said, I also, as a food scientist, what was so enlightening to me, when I read that word enrichment on the bags of flour or the bread products in the store, I thought, wow, we're making this better than it would have been, had we not done this favor.   I soon learned in this journal that that was not a favor that food companies are doing for us. They replace in their enrichment, a mere fraction of the nutrients that are there. And of course, I learned that once the flour is milled, I learned, well, let me, grains are storable, left whole and intact.   They store fairly indefinitely. But once that flour is, once that grain is milled into flour, it begins to spoil. The nutrients begin to oxidize.   So this led to the invention of these huge steel rolling mills that would take out the very nutrient rich bran, the oil laden germ that was causing the spoilage of the flour and leaving only the endosperm part, which is the white flour, protein and starch. Wonderful discovery. This flour won't spoil.   It'll sit on the shelf forever. And like I said, it looked like a wonderful discovery. And this all happened in the late 1800s, early 1900s.   By about 1910, the steel rolling mills had completely replaced the local millers because prior to the 1900s, most of the bread consumed in this country was either milled at home or the flour was purchased from a local miller. The bread was made at home and it was consumed at home. But with this invention, steel rolling, the steel rolling mills displaced the local millers, white flour, white bread became food now for everyone, rich and poor alike.   And can you imagine every housewife going, yay, I don't have to mill my flour anymore. I'll never forget years ago, Brad's 93-year-old grandfather lived with us for a little while. And I was in the kitchen milling some corn for cornbread.   And he went like this from his chair. He went, "I milled a lot of corn in my day." So, you can imagine people were like, hallelujah, we don't have to mill our flour.   But what seemed like an amazing, convenient, life-saving discovery actually turned out to not be so great. Shortly thereafter, the steel rolling mills and white flour became food for everybody. Three diseases became epidemic.   Beriberi, which is a vitamin B1 deficiency, it results in nervous disorders. Pellagra is a vitamin B3 or niacin deficiency, results in GI issues, skin issues, dementia, mental insanity. And that one really interested me because I did some more research on that and actually found out that the first case of pellagra was diagnosed right here in Atlanta, Georgia, which I'm from that area, you know, this area where our store in Woodstock is 35 miles north.   That first year 30,000 cases were diagnosed. Then anemia was the third disease. This puzzled health officials all over the country. They're like, what in the world is going on?   Why are we seeing this outbreak of diseases? And at first they thought beriberi and pellagra were maybe some type of infectious disease. But eventually they traced it to the new white flour that was on the market and the missing B vitamins and iron minerals that were provided by the bran and the germ.   Because for all practical purposes, that's where your nutrients are. The endosperm, white flours, protein and starch, protein and starches that we need, but not without the fiber, the B vitamins, the vitamin E, the inositol, choline, the iron, the calcium, all those nutrients. And so, things kind of clipped along.   They went to the millers and said, you got to put the bran and germ back in because of all the sickness. But the millers were like yeah, no, that's not going to happen because they had found a very lucrative market for the byproducts, which is so often done now in the food industry. Byproducts of the milling process, the bran and germ were sold to the cattle feed industry, white flour to the people.   So they're like, yeah, we're not giving up that money-making market. So things progressed until 1948. And finally, health officials stepped in, the government stepped in and mandated, you've got to fix the flour, you've got to enrich it.   And that's where I discovered what a deceptive term that is for the 35 to 40, who knows really how many nutrients are lost when they take the bran and germ away. They only replaced it with four, three B vitamins and iron. And of course, B1, B2, B3 and iron.   Supposedly, this took care of the beriberi and pellagra. But I always have to stop here and say, how many nervous disorders do we have in our country today? How many, how much GI disturbances and bowel issues, digestive issues?   How about dementia, mental insanity? What about skin eruptions? I don't think it took care of it.   But anyway, they think it did. And then it would take 50 years, 1998, after watching the rising incidence of birth defects and understanding that it was the missing folate that is no longer in the flour, richest food source, or most common, most readily eaten food source of folate, bread. Who knew?   So, they mandated then that a fifth nutrient be added. And that was folic acid, which, let me stop there and say this, these are synthetically produced supplements, vitamins that are being added to your flour. And particularly the B vitamins, this can be very troublesome, because the B vitamins come as a family, they come as a group, they work together synergistically.   When you take one out of context from the other out of balance, it actually depletes you and causes you to have a greater need. We're seeing that now with folic acid and the development of MTHFR, the folate, you know, reductase gene mutation. So anyway, it's caused more problems than it's worth.   And I've always thought about the scripture Proverbs 14:12, I believe it says, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death." And we can certainly see that. You know, and if that were not enough, now, we've, we've taken all this away, we produce this beautiful white flour, but the residual oils cause it some yellowing.   So can't have yellowing of that flour. So, they began to choose to bleach the flour and a product called nitrogen trichloride was used for more than 25 years to bleach the flour. It was finally taken off the market because they discovered that this nitrogen trichloride caused seizures in dogs.   Are you ready for this? Hyperactivity.   Laura Dugger: (14:22 - 14:22) Hmm.   Sue Becker: (14:22 - 29:18) When I read that information, it was in 1991. That was the beginning of the scourge of ADD and hyperactivity we're now seeing in our children today. And I couldn't help but wonder, you know, when I read that information, there was one little boy in my son's music class, you know, and, but now, wow, it's pretty prevalent.   So then another bleaching agent is benzoyl peroxide. It's known to destroy B vitamins and vitamin E. And let me just tell you this, grains are one of the, especially wheat is one of the most nutrient dense food groups. Like I said, but it's the, one of the richest food sources of vitamin E and no amount of vitamin E has ever been put back in our enriched right white flour.   So, we lost that source, but now we're using a bleaching agent that's going to destroy it and B vitamins. And then potassium bromate is often used as a dough conditioner. It helps strengthen that gluten structure to help get a better rise in the bread. It's known to cause liver issues and thyroid issues.   And this is what we were consuming. So, wow. Yeah.   Talk about my mind being blown, my eyes being open. And then the rest of the journal was a brief discussion of the common diseases that plague Americans and showed why it was directly related, how it was directly related to our consumption of the processed white flour, lacking the nutrients and the fiber diseases like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, diverticulitis, even varicose veins, skin issues, low energy. I mean, it just went on and on.   And from my, with my background, this made absolute sense. I knew it was scientifically sound, but it was also, it was a Christian publication. It was biblically sound.   And what changed my life here was like I said, always read whole wheat flour, better whole wheat flour, better, but I was buying the stuff in the store and even whole wheat bread in the store. Didn't really see a lot of difference in it. But this introduced me to the idea of an in-home grain mill, buying grain and milling my own flour.   That was life changing. I was like, this is amazing. I can do this.   Wanted a mill. My husband actually bought me a mill for my birthday in 1991. The mill came into our home.   I milled flour. I made bread. I ate bread.   It was delicious. It wasn't gritty. It wasn't heavy.   It wasn't dense. And I tell everyone I pooped the next morning and it was like, what just happened to me? So that was my life-changing experience.   First, first day, you know, my bowel issues were corrected. I had lifelong issues with constipation, struggled with it. Knew I didn't want to take chemical accidents.   So tried to do more alternative solutions, find those and they worked if I did them, but they were, I tell people they were outside of my, your realm of daily eating. You had to do something special. And honestly, sometimes I think we look at alternative methods, you know, supplementation or treatment for ailments that are afflicting us.   And we're not getting, still not getting to the root of the problem. My problem was I was not eating enough fiber. The white bread, the white flour was constipating me.   So this was the only change I made. I tell everyone I've not been constipated since 1991. I know you wanted to hear that, but, but then I had five young children by this time and I, I homeschool my children.   We were active in church and baseball and music lessons and all the things, you know, we were busy. I had nursing baby and, and I, but I'm telling you, when I started just adding this bread to our already real food, we were eating. I noticed significant energy.   Like I said, constipation gone right away. Then I begin to notice first week. It didn't take months.   I was like, wow, I have more energy. My frequent headaches went away. Also with my bowels moving, my chronic constipation went away.   I lived on antihistamines before bread since bread. That's another thing I can stand here and tell you. I've not had an antihistamine or a decongestant of any kind since 1991.   That's pretty amazing. I had frequent migraines, not had one since we started the bread. So those were, I've noticed my sugar cravings went away because now I was getting the real carbohydrates that my body needed and it's sustaining energy.   And then my children, I just noticed they were they were, they would eat and they were satisfied. They love the bread. They love the muffins.   They love the pancakes. It was healthy food. I didn't have to coerce them to eat.   No more snotty noses, no more ear infections for them. And that we just became a much healthier family. And they, my kids didn't necessarily catch every bug that came around.   And if one of them did get sick, didn't necessarily mean that all of us got sick, which a big family, that's, that's pretty significant, you know? And so it was just, and the bread was delicious. When I read that information about whole grains and, and, you know, how bad white flour was, I was, I was thinking that this freshly milled flour was going to be just like the store-bought whole wheat flour I was buying in the store.   And you can probably already tell I'm a very passionate person. So, I read this information. I'm like, we're never eating white bread again.   We're never, white flour's never coming into our house again. And if we have to choke this bread down, we're doing this, you know? Well, we did not have to choke it down at all.   The muffins, the bread, the pancakes, the brownies, cookies, everything I made was absolutely delicious. It was filling and it was satisfying. A lot of people would say, you must spend all your time in the kitchen when all my kids were home.   I'm going, actually, no, we eat breakfast and everybody's satisfied. Nobody snacks. And even my kids begin to notice how other kids snack all the time.   Not my kids, they would eat and they wouldn't eat till the next meal. And so, it was just very, very satisfying. So, I began to share my bread with everybody, bake bread for other people, take it here, take it there.   The next thing I know, so be warned, if you ever start milling and you make bread for somebody, they're going to ask you to make bread for them. So, I did start making bread for other people. And the next thing I know, they're coming to me and saying, my cholesterol dropped 85 points and all I changed was this bread.   You know, I feel better. I have more energy. And the lady with the cholesterol, she, I continued to make bread for her for a while.   And I always laugh. One of the favorite things she liked that I made for her was cinnamon rolls with cream cheese icing. And she said, I ate one after every meal and my cholesterol dropped 85 points in just one month.   And I always laugh. I'm like a statin drug with all kinds of side effects, cinnamon roll with cream cheese icing, you know, and she said, it was her testimony. She goes, "I knew it was the bread. I know it is the bread because three doctors, three different medications, three years, nothing has changed. And this is the only change I made."   So, I started hearing this. And of course, she told all her friends, the next thing you know, everybody's wanting me to make this cholesterol lowering bread for them, you know, and I'll never forget. By this point, I had had my sixth child, still homeschooling, still doing laundry, still baseball, church, all the things. And here I was making bread for my family and then making bread for all these people coming to my door.   And I was spending all day every day making bread and for others and myself. And I just got really tired, to be honest with you. And I was making this bread and a thought came to my mind.   And I just looking back now, I know God put those words in my heart and in my mind. That day, I had also had a few people ask me, would I teach them how to make bread? And where could they get a grain mill?   So the idea came to me, met my husband in the driveway. And I said, when he came home from work, and I said, you know what, I don't think I'm supposed to make bread for the world. I think I'm supposed to teach the world to make bread for themselves.   And that was the beginning right there. We sat down on the porch swing and talked about what we would call it. And I said, I want to call it Bread Beckers.   That's, you know, our, it's funny, we didn't know that at the time. But Becker is a German name that means the baker. So, it is bread bakers.   And anyway, so and, and it's funny, because at that point in 1992, my world was four people, four people had asked me about where they could get a grain mill, and what I teach them to make bread. And today, we, well, we, started our business right then in our home, took a little while to, you know, get everything. And we outgrew our home by 1998, what my husband and I and my children could do.   I mean, it just grew from the testimonies of other people. I mean, just like that lady when and then you get hundreds of people sharing different stories and passing it on, people, people start noticing. So we incorporated with a longtime friend and partner in 1998, moved the business out of our home, we're currently in this lovely 10,000 square foot warehouse, we moved here in 1999.   We have a nice studio kitchen, this is where all my cooking classes take place that we can seat 100 people and regularly we fill up classes like that. We have a lot of online classes already for people to view on our YouTube channel. But and then a few years ago, it's back in 2009, we acquired another warehouse because we are passionate about providing God's people with grain.   That first week here, like I said, customer base of four. A week after starting our business, getting all the license and all that really hadn't started getting anything, God woke me up and said that he was raising up Bread Beckers to be like Joseph to supply his people with grain. And I wrote in my journal that morning that it would be a tremendous thing.   And it would take a few months, we invested in a lot of wheat, we took all of our savings, this was before we incorporated, it was just my husband and I and our family and bought some wheat, you know, and had spent all of our savings. Well, I got a little nervous. And I woke up that morning after unloading all this wheat and writing the checks and seeing the money go out of the savings account.   And I'm like, I don't think the electric company is going to take a bucket of wheat, you know, for payment. So this was my fear. And I felt like, you know, maybe I was being deceived, maybe we were being misled.   And I just cried out to the Lord that he would speak to me and confirm to me that this was what we were supposed to do. And this is how I do it. I just cry out to the Lord.   And then I just go on with my regular Bible reading, not looking for something I could have gone to the story of Joseph because he had already spoken that to me. But my verse for the day in one of my devotionals was Proverbs 11:26. And it says "Cursed is the man who holds back grain when the public needs it. But a blessing from God and man is upon the head of him who sells it."   My husband took that vision. I know you talk about, I was like, what? I could hardly wait for Brad to get up. My husband, Brad, you know, I had awakened early because I was stirring and all just anxious and fearful. And the enemy was just coming at me.   And when I shared that all with Brad that he was sleeping next to me, not knowing that I was in all this turmoil. And he just looked at me and he goes, "Sue, I can think of no other verse that God could have given you to answer and your question and to calm your fears." And so he took it to heart.   So, we now have a second warehouse. It's 13,000 square feet. We are probably one of the largest grain packaging facilities in the southeastern United States.   We have hundreds. I don't know how many we're growing everyday co-ops all over the United States. And we bring in two semi truckloads a week.   I mean, I'm sorry, a month, which is actually a little bit more than that. It's about 190,000 pounds of wheat. That's just wheat.   Package it down into these great food grade buckets, plastic buckets. And we package it with carbon dioxide gas. So it's perfectly storable.   We can guarantee that it's bug free. You know, the enemies of grain are moisture bugs and rodents. So that's why we really firmly believe in packaging it all in buckets.   And like I said, we have probably 180 co-ops now. I don't know. It's growing every day.   We ship wheat all over the country, grain and everything we sell. So it's been a real journey and just a real blessing. And then I started a ministry called Real Bread Outreach.   We clipped along locally, kind of providing grain and grain mills for those who truly can't afford it. But then in 2016, God called me to Haiti. I made 15 trips to Haiti.   We built a bakery there. We trained up another team at an orphanage and they were making bread every day. So right now, in Haiti, it's an intense situation, but the bakery is thriving, feeding about 1,200 school children a day.   And then the other, it's about 150 orphans. Then we went to Tanzania in 2021. We built a bakery there, started a feeding program.   We've helped start a bakery in Israel that is ministering to the Jewish people. We helped train a bakery in Uganda and we've sent mills to missionaries in Japan and the Philippines and Nigeria and Kenya, just all over. And I'll close this part with this.   A few years ago, a friend of mine just, she did, she remembered, she said, "Sue, do you remember when you said to Brad, I don't think I'm supposed to make bread for the world, but teach the world to make bread for themselves." And I'm going to tear up a little bit looking back now, like I said, four people, that was my world. Today, it truly is the world.   And not just because of the internet, but because of where God has called us through our ministry. And it's a real blessing. So, my encouragement to everyone is do the small thing.   You never know where God's going to take you in years to come and how it's going to bless the world.   Laura Dugger: (29:19 - 29:21) So I think that was a lot.   Sue Becker: (29:21 - 29:22) I know.   Laura Dugger: (29:23 - 32:39) It was beautiful. And it makes me think of the verse, do not despise small beginnings for the Lord delights to see the work begin. I'm paraphrasing, but I love how much it has blessed the world.   And I remember the first time I heard you, I was trying to just picture what is a mill, but you literally just turn it on and you pour the grain in and it comes out as flour. It's so easy. And so we purchased our own.   After our conversation, I get to stick in our loaves in the oven. They're still rising right now. And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Radiant Faith and Wellness Event is a unique event designed to bridge the aspects of faith and wellness and to live as our bodies, minds and souls were intended and created. So come together with other like-minded women to receive Christ centered teaching on health and wellness, to nourish your body with good food and to renew your mind and help you shine radiantly. At Radiant, wellness goes beyond worldly standards of wellness and self-help.   So, from worship and inspiring speakers to guided movement, meaningful conversation, biblical teaching, every part of this event is crafted to help you reconnect and step forward renewed. It's the perfect time of year to experience something like this. Radiant is more than just an event.   It's actually a transformational experience and supportive community dedicated to helping women grow spiritually and physically. Their speakers bring this perfect balance of encouragement and deep wisdom, each within their own area of expertise and passion. They do a remarkable job of creating a safe and joyful space where every woman feels seen, supported and empowered to grow.   So, join the Radiant Faith and Wellness family today and experience what it means to live rooted, restored and radiant from the inside out. Visit https://www.google.com/search?q=mygracioushealing.com/radiant-event or you can check out their Instagram page at @radiantwellnessevent. Tickets are limited, so make sure you book today and enter the code SAVVY when registering for a special discount.   Thanks for your sponsorship. So going back to these ailments, I'm going to reference two other things that you said. First, this may be a little unrelated, but even thinking of feeding people around the world or feeding our children, you mentioned, you know, a lot of times if your kids were picky eaters, you'd say, okay, ditch the bread and just eat the meat.   But because it's so nourishing and nutritious and that Jesus has given us this as a grace gift, this bread, you can ditch the meat and eat just the bread and get so much nutritional value.   Sue Becker: (32:40 - 37:32) Yes, that and that's funny that you bring that up because, you know, one of the things over the years of studying is of the 44 to 46 absolutely essential nutrients needed by your body for health and to promote life. There's only four slightly deficient or missing in wheat, vitamin A, vitamin C. So, God gave us another kind of food.   Remember in Genesis chapter 1:29, he says, “I've given you plants that bear fruit with the seed in them.” So that's our fruits and vegetables. That's where we get our vitamin A, vitamin C.   Then we get our vitamin D from the sunshine if we get out there and get some. And then B12, of course, is low or is not found in any plant product. That's I mean, plant food.   So, you have to get that from your meat, your red meats and things like that. But that's and so learning that you're absolutely right. When my kids were growing up and the bread was my little toddler, how she'd tell me she was hungry, she would say, “I want a roll with honey.”   That was what she wanted to eat. And I would take the meat off the sandwich. And before bread, it was eat the meat.   After bread, it was just eat the bread, you know, because I knew just from that. And I started thinking about when Jesus said, “Man does not live by bread alone.” He was quoting the Old Testament, but by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God, he was reiterating that you think you're living because you have bread and all the biblical, you know, so many of the biblical feasts, Passover and First Fruits, Pentecost, they're around the barley harvest and the wheat harvest.   Grain was a big part of their life and of their sacrifices and all that. And he was saying, you think you're living just because you have bread. But I'm telling you, there's a spiritual life that you have to feed as well.   So, yeah, that was a fun time seeing the change of my perspective of just eat the bread. And, you know, some days, you know, breakfast was typically a pretty big meal for us. Sometimes it would just be pancakes, but a lot of times it would be eggs and freshly ground grits and bread of some sort, muffins.   And then lunch might be muffins and a smoothie because we really weren't that hungry from the bread at breakfast and then dinner. We eat normal. People think we're weird eaters.   But, you know, like I said, I grew up Southern. So, we do country fried steak. We do pot roast.   We do chicken. We do brown rice, mashed potatoes, green beans. You know, we do it all.   And you mentioned something that was funny. When I first started, when I would take bread places, people go, “Oh, my gosh, this coffee cake is so delicious or this bread is so delicious. Can I get your recipe?”   And I'd go, “Well, yeah, you can have my recipe. But you've got to understand, I mill my own flour.” Two things they would always respond with.   And the first one they would go, “You do what?” And I would go, “I mill my own flour.” The second one absolutely intrigued me for years and years until I did a study on what grain mills, the local millers mills, you know, waterwheels and gristmills and ox treading out the grain.   But they would always say to me, “Where do you live?” And I think they thought I must have had a barn and an ox or I lived by a river to have the gristmill to power my mill. Now, you can see my little mill behind me.   It just sits on my counter. And you're right. Turn it on, pour it in, comes out flour in a matter of seconds.   And I tell people, it's really not any slower or more tedious than taking your flour canister out of your cabinet. And I realize we've deviated in this day and time from even using flour and baking things ourselves when we can go to the store and buy it already baked. But it'll change your life.   I have never seen one dietary change bring so many significant across the board, broad spectrum health benefits to myself, my family, and so many people now that share their testimonies with me. It's just been amazing, just absolutely amazing. And, you know, I always, my husband always likes for me to say, you know, in the 25 years of raising my children on this bread, we only had to take them to the doctor twice for an illness.   Twice. And twice on antibiotics. They needed it.   There's a time and place. Twice to the doctor for an illness. In 25 years, there are people and families that go to the doctor more than that in a week.   So, when people say I can't afford it or I don't have time, I'm like, wow, I can just tell you the life-saving and money-saving advantages are, it's hard to describe. So yeah.   Laura Dugger: (37:33 - 38:05) Yeah. And like you said, it's an enjoyable process. It is.   But also, okay, referencing one other thing, just thinking about these ailments. You had quoted, I believe a doctor just saying about constipation that is, and I don't want to botch it, so I'd love to know if you remember this, that most Americans is that three out of five suffer from constipation or even chronic constipation. And that, was it the number one cause of breast cancer and prostate cancer?   Sue Becker: (38:05 - 39:29) Oh, wow. Yes. I'd almost forgotten that.   Yes. I was listening to a CD that someone shared with me, and it was by an oncologist. And I still remember, I would listen to things as we began to travel and share and teach, and I would listen to teaching.   And so, I had this cassette, if you can remember those or even know what those are. And I remember where I was, I was on I-10 headed to Jacksonville to a homeschool show. And this oncologist at the very end of her message, she said, “Toxins are stored in your, let's see, let me see. So, she said toxins are stored in your fatty tissue. In a woman, it's your breast. It's, and in a man, it's his prostate.”   And she said, “When toxins are not carried out of their, your body daily through bowel elimination, then these toxins get absorbed into the body and stored in your fat tissue.” And she said, “So a direct correlation between cancer and constipation is there.” And, and I was just like, what did she just say?   And that blew me away. I mean, that was not me saying it, this was an oncologist. And she's saying one of the leading issues is constipation.   Wow. Yeah, I'd almost forgotten about that.   Laura Dugger: (39:30 - 39:44) Well, and such a simple swap and getting to still enjoy these foods. But in addition to being healthier and the health benefits and making us feel better, how does this also potentially affect our weight?   Sue Becker: (39:45 - 42:33) Well, that's a good question, because we're all told that bread is bad, that bread will make you fat. And I totally agree. The bread that's in the store is devoid of nutrients.   It's devoid of fiber that fills you up. It's devoid of nutrients that satisfy fiber that fills you up. And it's heavily sweetened, sugared, you know, most of the breads we're eating are not just flour, water, yeast, salt. They're usually loaded with other things.   So, they're not satisfying. The fiber in real bread fills you up. So, like I said, you're not going to overeat, you're going to eat and you're going to be satisfied.   You know, I always tell the story when, when we were eating just bread from the store, I had five children, I would make sandwiches, they would, you know, cut them in half, I would make five sandwiches, they would, or I'd make the whole loaf, actually, they would fight over the last one. After bread, real bread that fills you up, I would make five sandwiches, cut them in half, and sometimes they would eat them all. And sometimes they wouldn't.   It was because it was filling, and it was satisfying. And that's something people need to understand. Also, the nutritional deficiency in the foods that we're eating in the store, especially our bread, they're leaving us malnourished, really.   Dr. Denmark, one of the oldest, well, the oldest practicing pediatrician in the country, she lived right here in Georgia. And she said, “We're the most undernourished, overfed people in the world.” We eat a lot because we're never satisfied, because the foods we're eating does not supply our body with the nutrients that we need.   And so, we're constantly craving. I don't think a lot of people don't understand what cravings are. You're craving food because you're needing a nutrient, you know.   And so, we find that we can eat and eat and eat, and, or not we, but Americans can overeat, and they do overeat because they're never satisfied. And so, real bread fills you up, real bread satisfies, it takes those sugar cravings away, which, you know, a lot of high calorie foods, they're loaded with sugars, and that's what we're craving a lot of times. I read something, women tend to crave sweets and chocolate, and men tend to crave salty.   And, but both, if we're craving, you know, processed foods, you know, you can sit down and eat the whole bag of cookies, where you make cookies from freshly milled flour, one, maybe two, if you go three, you kind of go, I really didn't need that one, you know. So, it's just filling, it's satisfying. We have so many people, testimonies of people saying they've lost, one lady said she lost over a hundred pounds, that was over the course of a while, you know, of a year or so, but she did it right.   She just started eating real food that nourishes and satisfies.   Laura Dugger: (42:34 - 44:21) I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates.   You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product, so I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living.   You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible, so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.   And throughout the years, you've seen these different trends from Atkins to Paleo, and now a lot of times we're told gluten is the enemy, but I love how you say that wheat can actually be the cure, not the cause.   So, can you elaborate on that, and even why some people with gluten sensitivities may still be able to consume bread that was made with freshly milled grain?   Sue Becker: (44:21 - 1:01:23) Right, so, yeah, I think what people need to understand is what gluten actually is. And gluten's not really even in grains, it's just an easy way to verbalize it, I guess. So, gluten is the stretchy substance that forms from two proteins that are found uniquely in the wheat family of grains.   So, when you mill wheat into flour, and you hydrate it, wet it, mix it, you know, make a dough out of it, those two proteins, gliadin and glutamine, they form this stretchy substance called gluten. Well, it's very important in bread making that you have these two proteins, because when you make a yeast leavened bread, whether it's sourdough or commercial yeast today, those organisms feed on the carbohydrates both in the wheat and in your dough, and they produce carbon dioxide gas. So, that gluten, those stretchy strands of protein, those two proteins, they trap that carbon dioxide gas, and that's what enables the bread to rise.   So, it's unique to the wheat family of grain. It has always been there. It's why wheat is the king of bread making and always has been.   Who put those two proteins in the wheat family of grains? God did. And just so you know, wheat is not genetically modified, and it has not been altered to produce wheat that has a higher gluten content.   What determines the protein content of grain more than anything, which, what did I say gluten is? It's formed from two proteins. What determines the protein content in grain more than anything is rainfall during the growing season.   So, that's why here in the southeastern United States, we can't make yeast bread making wheat. We can't grow it because we have too much rainfall and it's too warm. So, we grow what's called soft wheat or pastry flour.   That's why southerners eat biscuits, because that's the kind of bread that we can make with the wheat grown here. The colder, drier climates in the breadbasket states of the country, they grow the hard bread making wheat. Now herein lies the problem.   When those steel rolling mills came on the scene and began to take the bran and germ out, what did they leave us with? Protein and starch. Those gluten forming proteins and starch are in that endosperm.   God never intended us to eat that white flour, those protein and starches without the vitamins, the minerals, the enzymes, the vitamin E that the bran and germ provide. So, therein lies a lot of the problem and that's what causes so many digestive issues is that we aren't getting the nutrients and the fiber that will keep our bowels clean and our digestive system moving the way it is supposed to. Now herein lies a bigger problem is that in the food industry and the American people's craving for fluffier bread.   In the food industry, they thought, okay, we can give you fluffier bread. If we take the wheat and we wash it until only all that is left is those two proteins, those gluten forming proteins. They get this stretchy substance and then they dry it and powder it and they add even more pure gluten forming proteins to that white bread.   So, now we have an even bigger problem and then and even in that whole grain bread, people want fluffy bread. They don't want, you know, coarser whole grain bread. So, check your ingredients.   That 100% whole grain bread that you might be already buying, third or fourth ingredient gonna be vital wheat gluten or gluten flour, whatever they call it and that is greatly upsetting the fiber to flour ratio and causing digestive issues. And then, you know, just the heavily consumption of that bread and you know, the commercially processed bread is a real problem. So, now what we have is people, you know, Americans consuming this bread.   Now, they have every symptom of something called celiac disease. Celiac disease is real. It is genetic.   I am learning. I used to say it's not reversible, but I am learning something that you might have the genes for celiac disease, but they can be turned on or turned off. So, perhaps what is happening is you might have the gene, but now it's being turned on by eating and consuming this high gluten, if you will, bread out of context, not the way God made it.   But then also what is also happening is so now we have people that have all the symptoms. Well, let me back up and just explain what celiac disease, celiac disease, true genetic celiac disease. You are born with these genes, the inability to break down that and metabolize gliadin.   That's one of those gluten forming proteins, which the whole wheat family has that. So, if you can't break it down, it's going to cause digestive issues, abdominal cramping. It's going to eventually as those that protein gets dumped into your large intestine, your bowel, it's going to lay down the villi.   You're going to have leaky gut. You're going to have all these issues. That is true genetic celiac disease, but it affects less than 1% of Americans have those genes and have it turned on for true genetic celiac disease.   So, what is being diagnosed today? Well, everybody eating the commercially processed high gluten packed or you know bread, they're developing the same symptoms, digestive issues, abdominal cramping, laying down the villi. So, they're being diagnosed with celiac disease when it a lot of times is not true genetic celiac disease and I'm not professing to be a medical professional.   I'm not giving anybody medical advice, but here's the good news that I do want to say to you. Non-genetic celiac disease is totally reversible. And the good news is people are finding some that have been diagnosed with celiac going gluten-free been gluten-free for 20 years.   They're finding they can eat the freshly milled flour because it has the right ratio and the good fiber and the good nutrients to heal their gut, cleanse their gut, and get their bowels moving, cleans out. So, bring that villi back to life and they're thriving. They're not just tolerating the bread.   They're thriving and finding reversal of many, many, many health issues. And another big issue too is people don't understand that for the most part digestion begins in your mouth, carbohydrate digestion. You chew your food, your saliva mixes with your food and there's an enzyme carbohydrate digesting enzyme called amylase.   Once you swallow that down in your stomach, your stomach is where protein digestion takes place. It must have an acid environment for those protein digestive enzymes to work. God knew that we're fearfully and wonderfully made.   He created cells in our stomach to produce acid brings the pH. If y'all know what pH is down to one very, very acidic could eat a hole in your stomach. But he also created these cells that produce mucus that lines our stomach and protects it from that high acid.   So, that's where protein digestion needs to take place. Here's the problem. What is one of the most commonly prescribed drugs in America? Prilosec, Nexium.   These are antacids. They're prescribing it for something called acid reflux, which is only compounding the problem. So, these antacids are doing exactly what the name of them describes.   They're alkalizing your stomach acid. So, what's that going to do to protein digestion? It's going to compromise it.   Huh? So, yeah, and the real cause of acid reflux is not too much stomach acid. It is actually too low stomach acid.   Our body's not getting the nutrients that needs to produce that stomach acid. Now, it's acid enough that when it comes back up in our esophagus it burns, but there's a little flap that God created right there at our stomach and our esophagus called the epiglottis. Do you know what's and it's supposed to close so that when that stomachs churning and doing its digestion, it doesn't back that acid doesn't back up into your esophagus, but it closes.   It's stimulated to close by the high acid in your stomach. Do you see what's happening here? So, we're being prescribed an antacid which now we don't necessarily get the burn, but there's all kinds of side effects.   We've compromised protein digestion, which what did we say gluten is protein. Also, do you know the technical term for an allergy a food allergy not a sensitivity or an intolerance the technical term for a food allergy is an adverse reaction to a protein component of your food. I have never seen so many food allergies as we see today.   It's very interesting. Some people are diagnosed with a gluten sensitivity. Well, of course, I think everybody is sensitive to the bread and the store.   Some people can tolerate a little bit better than others, but I know when I occasionally, you know, we go out to a party or an event and we usually avoid bread, but sometimes it's on everything. You know, I know I wake up the next morning and I'm like, I don't feel good. I have a stomachache.   So, I think everybody is sensitive to the bread in the store, but we have now hundreds of testimonies of people who thought they had to be gluten-free or say I have, you know, I haven't eaten bread in 20 years because made me sick. It did this it did that and they are finding they can eat the freshly milled flour because even wheat because it's the right proportions all the nutrients, you know, one of the amino acids that's found abundantly and wheat is glutamine Google it and you'll see a lot of health professionals will actually give you glutamine supplements to heal your gut and it's and it's in the bread. So, then part of the other problem that I see then when people think they're gluten-sensitive or have to be gluten-free now mind you if you truly are genetic celiac, you probably will not be able to eat wheat and I'm saying probably now because I'm learning some things that we can turn those genes off.   I don't know but if you truly are genetic celiac, but that is going to be a diagnosis that probably came when you were young you were going to always have had symptoms of these if you are now 20 or 30 and all of a sudden having these issues and you've been eating wheat all your life chances are you're not true genetic celiac. So, that's something you need to look at but people are finding they can eat the flour. They can eat the wheat and part of a real concern of mine is when you go gluten-free if you don't really need to I've been doing some studying as a food microbiologist gut microbiome has been a big topic.   I've shared I've taught way before it was trendy on, you know probiotics and all of that and fermented foods. I've been teaching it since 1992 but what happens that they're finding on these gluten-free diets. It's actually diminishing your good gut microbiome and encouraging the growth of more pathogenic making you more susceptible to C. diff, E. coli and other sickness causing organisms.   Then you're going to have those organisms are critical for breaking down food that gets dumped into the large intestine and encouraging digestion and enzymes that they create and all kinds of B vitamins and I could go on and on so that is being compromised the next thing, you know, you have allergies to eggs allergies to milk these very restrictive diets change that gut microbiome and they are causing a lot of gut health issues and allergy issues. I've talked to two people in the last few months one lady told to go gluten-free been gluten-free for years. She with tears in her eyes couple of weeks ago came down from Ohio hugged me in was came to our store just wanted to come to our store.   I happen to be here that day. She hugged me tears in her eyes and said I was down to eight foods that I could eat another lady in one of my classes came up and said I was down to seven foods that I could eat, you know, so It puts you on a treadmill that I don't think you want to be on when you start very restrictive diets. It's and not just gluten-free, but even you know, the carnivore and the keto and the paleo the heavy meat diets you need whole grains to break the fats down and cholesterol that those foods are providing and I'm a meat eater.   I mean, that's fine, but to exclude the most nutrient-dense food group God has given us in my mind is very dangerous. Let's see if we can get healing and reverse that I have a podcast and I do it's the bread stories now and I one of my favorites and I recommend it more often than any other is episode 66 sit with Sarah Valentine if anybody that I hear of that say they have to be gluten-free or their celiac, I would say she fit the bill for what surely seemed like a true genetic celiac. She was diagnosed in I think she was around 15 or I don't remember her age.   She was in high school. I think but she had always had trouble even as a little one and she was diagnosed with celiac and she said at the end of the podcast, she goes either God supernatural healed me or it was a misdiagnosis, but she had been gluten-free for 15 years. I believe it was and she told me she said and I she had a dairy allergy.   She couldn't eat dairy and she said, you know dairy I cheated on a little bit because it would just cause me a little discomfort. She goes I never cheated on gluten. Well, her brother and her mother heard about me and they Sarah was off at college and they got a mill and started milling because her brother's children had some health issues.   I think they have warts and my work stories are great. But anyway, bought a mill. She came home from school and they said Sari.   We want you to try this. You nope. Nope.   Nope. I'm I can't finally they talked her into trying a little bit should she ate it no issues at all and she told me on that podcast. She said I pooped the best I've ever pooped.   I have pooped in a long time the next morning. I slept the best. I had no headaches had no adverse reaction and she's become if any anyone My poster child for you know, reversing what appears to be celiac disease and being able to thrive on real bread and freshly milled wheat with the right balance of those protein starches nutrients fiber enzymes vitamin E all the things that bring healing and improve digestion get the bowels cleaned out and the gut healed.   So, yeah, it's something that I think excites me the most and I call it food freedom because what I'm seeing is people are in bondage and you know, when you can't eat this and you can't eat that and I understand there's some I have a granddaughter that has a dairy a true dairy allergy and I get it and those are real and you don't want to you know diminish those but we are seeing so many people that the bread in the store totally disrupts their system and causes all kinds of issues were seeing them not only like I said tolerate bread made from freshly milled flour, but bring healing bring healing and I that is so much our Lord that God knows what he's doing in his intentional design. He is all about healing and freedom versus of setting the captives free.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:38 - 1:01:40) Oh gosh, that was a big one. Yeah.   Sue Becker: (1:01:40 - 1:02:10) Yeah, but it also just one real practical thing as we're talking about gluten and fermentation with sourdough. This is a two-parter because if you feed it with white flour or add that I'm assuming that diminishes effects and if you feed it with fresh milled flour and then add that to bake it in bread, is that like double the benefits because you've got the fermentation and the grain or how does that work?   Sue Becker: (1:02:10 - 1:07:07) You know, I can't find any real definitive information, but let's back up and let's talk about sourdough with white flour there for a while when we were still traveling back in the probably early 2000s a lot of teaching coming out going even celiacs can eat, you know sourdough bread and they were making it with white flour and all of this. Is it better than the stuff you're buying in the store? Maybe but white flour is white flour and it's still process is still been stripped of all the vitamins the minerals and the fiber.   So, in my viewpoint, it is no better for you. If you're making it's kind of a waste of time if you're making sourdough bread with white flour. Now, if you start milling your own flour and making your sourdough with that, that's a whole other realm.   And like I said, I've done lots of studies most what I find when I read is that when we went to commercial yeast, we gave up flavor. So, I get that and that the bread is kind of flavorless now. So, I get that a little bit but as Americans and especially children, we like our fluffy bread, don't we?   Yeah, so, kids, you know, don't fret if you're making bread with commercial yeast. That's the way I make most of my bread. But as a microbiologist and knowing that when those lactic acid organisms feed on sugars, they produce B vitamins.   That's like yogurt. Why yogurt has B vitamins and maybe your milk, you know, just uncultured milk doesn't. So, I know that that increases the availability of those nutrients.   So, I think there is definitely some nutritional advantages that you take it to a whole new level. But what I say that commercial yeasted bread is not healthy and you can't do that that you only need to be doing sourdough, you know, I learned to make sourdough from white flour when I was first married long before milling came into our family by the time I had my children I had vacated that and then when I started milling I used commercial yeast and have for most of my years and we saw tremendous health benefits. So, I don't diminish one over the other but I certainly recognize that yeah, you might have some better nutrient bioavailability. I don't buy into the that you have to do the long fermentations to prevent the anti-nutrients like phytic acid from keeping you from absorbing minerals because I've had mineral checks and we've seen people testify that they had to have blood transfusions regularly because they were anemic all their life.   They start milling making their bread with commercial yeast, you know, and they're no longer anemic and we've seen countless people that and the same with me. I'm never low in my minerals. So, I don't buy into that.   But I say, you know, hey if you feel like you can digest sourdough bread better than commercial yeast leavened bread. I'm not going to argue with you go for it do it. But I also don't want to put a heavy burden on especially young moms that are like it's going to take me three days to make bread, you know, or it's you know, no, it doesn't have to so that's kind of my stance on it.   Do what works for your family sourdough is a rhythm. So, you got to kind of get into it about the time I get into it. We take a trip.   I go speak somewhere. I'm gone for four days and I'm like, okay, where am I with this? So, you know, that's just kind of my viewpoint and what I want to encourage people do what works for you what you want what your family likes.   I love I've got sourdough bread rising right now. There's times when I just like I just want you know, that chewy that nice flavorful bread and then there's other times where I want a soft loaf of bread for a good Southern tomato sandwich or my kids like peanut butter sandwiches, you know, so do what works do for your family do what your family is going to eat and love and you know, my husband has a philosophy if it doesn't taste good. It's not good for you.   So, if your family, your children, especially don't like the texture and flavor of sourdough some people do but if especially if your kids are used to the bread from the store, that's going to be a hard transition for them. And if they're not going to eat it and balk at it, then it's not going to bring them the health benefits that you're trying to do for your family. So, make what's cul

Luke 11:1 Once Jesus was in a certain place praying. As he finished, one of his disciples came to him and said, “Lord, teach us to pray.” (NLT) Matthew 6:9-13 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’. (NIV) 1. Prayer begins with worship Matthew 6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, (NIV) Psalm 100:4 Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise; give thanks to him and praise his name. (NIV) 2. Prayer helps us keep our priorities straight Matthew 6:9-10 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. (NIV) Romans 12:1-2 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (NIV) 3. Prayer reminds us that God is our source Matthew 6:9-11 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. (NIV) 1 Peter 5:7 Give all your worries and cares to God, for he cares about you. (NLT) Philippians 4:6-7 Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. 7 Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus. (NLT) 4. Prayer allows God to do a deep work in our hearts Matthew 6:9-12 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. (NIV) Psalm 139:23-24 Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 Point out anything in me that offends you, and lead me along the path of everlasting life. (NLT) 5. Prayer provides protection Matthew 6:9-13 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ (NIV) Ephesians 6:12 For we[d] are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places. (NLT) Matthew 6:16-18 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (NIV)

Luke 11:1 Once Jesus was in a certain place praying. As he finished, one of his disciples came to him and said, “Lord, teach us to pray.” (NLT) Matthew 6:9-13 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’. (NIV) 1. Prayer begins with worship Matthew 6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, (NIV) Psalm 100:4 Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise; give thanks to him and praise his name. (NIV) 2. Prayer helps us keep our priorities straight Matthew 6:9-10 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. (NIV) Romans 12:1-2 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (NIV) 3. Prayer reminds us that God is our source Matthew 6:9-11 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. (NIV) 1 Peter 5:7 Give all your worries and cares to God, for he cares about you. (NLT) Philippians 4:6-7 Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. 7 Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus. (NLT) 4. Prayer allows God to do a deep work in our hearts Matthew 6:9-12 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. (NIV) Psalm 139:23-24 Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 Point out anything in me that offends you, and lead me along the path of everlasting life. (NLT) 5. Prayer provides protection Matthew 6:9-13 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ (NIV) Ephesians 6:12 For we[d] are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places. (NLT) Matthew 6:16-18 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (NIV)

Luke 11:1 Once Jesus was in a certain place praying. As he finished, one of his disciples came to him and said, “Lord, teach us to pray.” (NLT) Matthew 6:9-13 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’. (NIV) 1. Prayer begins with worship Matthew 6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, (NIV) Psalm 100:4 Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise; give thanks to him and praise his name. (NIV) 2. Prayer helps us keep our priorities straight Matthew 6:9-10 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. (NIV) Romans 12:1-2 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (NIV) 3. Prayer reminds us that God is our source Matthew 6:9-11 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. (NIV) 1 Peter 5:7 Give all your worries and cares to God, for he cares about you. (NLT) Philippians 4:6-7 Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. 7 Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus. (NLT) 4. Prayer allows God to do a deep work in our hearts Matthew 6:9-12 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. (NIV) Psalm 139:23-24 Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 Point out anything in me that offends you, and lead me along the path of everlasting life. (NLT) 5. Prayer provides protection Matthew 6:9-13 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ (NIV) Ephesians 6:12 For we[d] are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places. (NLT) Matthew 6:16-18 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (NIV)

"So above all, guard the affections of your heart, for they affect all that you are. Pay attention to the welfare of your innermost being, for from there flows the wellspring of life.” Proverbs 4:23 TPT   *Transcription Below*   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Katie M. Reid is an author, speaker, podcast host, and songwriter who inspires others to live out their purpose with tenacity, wisdom and grace at katiemreid.com. She is the author of Made Like Martha: Good News for the Woman Who Gets Things Done, A Very Bavarian Christmas novel (which is becoming a movie) and the co-creator of The Digital Peace Pact and the Check Your Selfie Story-Coloring Book. Katie is also the co-host of The Martha + Mary Show podcast. As the Inspiration Doula, Katie coaches creatives, helping them bring life to their projects. Her album, Echoes of My Heart, the Daughter song, and The Very Bavarian Christmas musical soundtrack can be accessed here and on other music streaming platforms. Katie delights in her husband and five children. Musicals, iced tea, and cut-to-the-chase conversations are a few of her favorite things.   Questions and Topics Discussed: As a woman who excels in getting things done, what tips can you share as it relates to getting things done around our home? What are some of the changes you've made to your lifestyle that have led to the greatest results? What habits and rhythms do you have in place to support your personal development and spiritual growth?   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce During Episode: 183 Leading Your Family, Marriage, and Self with Justin Maust Patreon 47: Business, Leadership, and Legacy with Justin Maust    Other Episode Mentioned During Episode: Mary & Martha Show: Benefits of Chiropractic Care with Dr. Lianne Coombe   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 81 Sacred Rest with Doctor, Author, and Speaker, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith 150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh 256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode.   If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.   Welcome to the final episode of The Savvy Sauce for 2025. We look so forward to meeting you back here after today's episode on Monday, January 5th.   But for today, my guest is Katie Reid. She is wildly creative and also completely grounded in her faith.   She's an author, speaker, former podcaster, and coach for creatives. She's going to share on a variety of topics today, ranging from health to discerning God's leading for what's next in each of our lives. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Katie.   Katie Reid: (1:30 - 1:33) Thank you so much for having me, Laura. This is such a treat.   Laura Dugger: (1:33 - 1:45) Oh, it's a delight to get a chat with you. And I want to go back. I want to hear the origins of your writing and podcasting journey and how it's led to the work that you get to do today.   Katie Reid: (1:46 - 3:00) Well, in about 2014, I had a bucket list. And on that bucket list, there were things like make a quilt and sing the national anthem in a professional sporting event and bake an apple pie and writing a book was on it. And so, Laura, I've always been a very driven and purposeful person.   So, it felt like it was the time to write a book. And I had no idea how hard it was going to be and that it would accidentally turn into a career that I forgot to ask my husband if I could start. But it was when I started writing and I had been writing, you know, just as a kid here and there.   But it turned into what I did as a career. And it was not necessarily easy. But God has refined me through the process.   And so, my first book Made Like Martha came out in 2018. And then I have dabbled in fiction books as well. And then I have a Bible study that is out now.   God, What Do I Do? based on Judges one through five. So, I kind of write a little bit of everything. And it's been a wild and wonderful journey.   Laura Dugger: (3:01 - 3:07) Wild and wonderful for sure. Going back to that bucket list, have the other ones also become realities as well?   Katie Reid: (3:08 - 3:28) You know, I have sang the national anthem at some not  professional sporting events, but, you know, high school events and that kind of thing at my college. I have made an apple pie. My mom is a quilter and I just decided she can do that.   I kind of removed that off the list. But now I can check off, write a book.   Laura Dugger: (3:28 - 3:53) That's incredible, which is a huge undertaking. So, thank you for your labor of love. And even going back, I love how you've identified that you kind of relate more to the Martha personality rather than the Mary personality.   So, can you define what that means and share some of the benefits and the drawbacks of each personality leaning?   Katie Reid: (3:54 - 6:41) Sure. So, in the Bible, in Luke 10:38-42, we meet two sisters, Martha and Mary, and they had a brother, Lazarus, as well, and they were friends of Jesus. And Martha it seems like your firstborn type A, you know, to do list kind of gal.   And Mary was like a disciple of Jesus sitting at his feet, maybe more relationally driven. And so, when I read this story that has, you know, Martha gets a lot of flack because a lot of people like, “Oh, we need to all be like Mary.” And so, this story, I always wanted it to go differently.   Martha goes to Jesus. She's worried and distracted by all her preparations. She's housing or hosting Jesus and his disciples at her home.   And Mary's sitting there listening to Jesus teaching. And so, Martha goes to Jesus and says in the Katy paraphrase, “Hey, Jesus, I'm here doing this all by myself. Tell Mary to get off her duff and help me.”   And I so, Laura, wanted Jesus to say, “Martha, you are right. Mary, get in there and help your sister.” But that's not what he did.   And so, I want to take a closer look at the story and see what did God really say? Because I think over time, we've probably read books or heard different sermons that paints Martha in a certain light. And I wanted to see for myself, you know, have we added things to this that aren't really there?   And what I discovered is, you know, Jesus made us. We know this from Psalm 139 on purpose and for a purpose and intricately. And so, it was no mistake that Martha was made to do and to get things done.   But she got a little out of whack kind of with her heart posture, as I say, you know, kind of trying to strive and earn versus working from a place of love. She was working for love and she already had that love right there in Jesus in her home. And so, that's what Made Like Martha is about.   But I see how, you know, a lot of us are a blend of both of these women, you know, task oriented, relational oriented. But I think we lean more one way or the other. But the world needs all kinds of people in it.   And so, I think sometimes we view it as a competition when actually it's just different. But we can never go wrong with sitting at Jesus's feet. But also, we can be at peace and settled on the inside in our relationship with the Lord, even when our hands are busy.   Because if we just all sit, things will not get done. And, you know, we are both busy moms, Laura. And, you know, there's just there's a to do list every day, isn't there?   Laura Dugger: (6:41 - 7:00) There is. But you are someone who really does excel at getting those things done. Like you said, it's in your wiring from the Lord.   So, what tips can you share with all of us? And maybe starting with how does that specifically look for getting things done around our home?   Katie Reid: (7:01 - 8:47) Yes, I think there's a resource I have on my website that we can share in the show notes, and it's called the “All Done Calendar.” And I don't know about you, Laura, but my to do list can have like 25 things on it, which is just very unrealistic. Right.   I am not going to get 25 things done in a day. And so, I created this all done calendar and it's a blank calendar. It's got some pretty designs on it.   And what you do is you write down a few things each day that you actually got done. And cleaning half of the bathroom can totally count. You don't even have to do the whole thing. But it's a way to celebrate what you've already done instead of just being fixated on all there's left to do. And so, that's something that helps me is to be like, OK, I did not get the 25 things done. But what with the Lord's help did I get done?   And sometimes I might have had these really lofty goals, but maybe instead I had a meaningful conversation with my team. Or maybe instead I left the dishes and sat down and watched a movie with my family and likely fell asleep 10 minutes in because I sat down. But I think we can just feel, especially in this Pinterest world and comparison with social media, we can feel like we're behind all the time.   And so, this all done calendar is just a really practical way to just look back over the month and be like, look what I did do. And sure, there could be lots of things left, but it's a way to just remind ourselves of what we have in that gratitude. I call it a lavish list instead of a lack list.   You know, instead of counting all the things you don't have, give thanks for all the things you do.   Laura Dugger: (8:48 - 9:05) Wow. And that gratitude really does change everything when our mindset is changed. Do you have any other tips that you use then for meal planning or logistics?   Because you can introduce us to your family as well. You've got quite a few kids with your husband.   Katie Reid: (9:05 - 11:47) We do. We have five kids. The oldest is almost 21. She's a girl. Our youngest is a girl also, and she's almost nine. And then we have three boys in the middle, 18, 16, and 12.   And so, we are a lively and a loud family. I think for me with meal planning, I actually do enjoy cooking and my daughter had a lot of culinary training. So, I know some women are just like, it happens every day and I don't like it.   But what I often do with our busy schedule is on Saturday or maybe Sunday afternoon, I like to cook things in bulk. So, maybe I'll make a soup and some taco meat and put pulled pork in the crock pot so that we can kind of eat off that. And during the week, I kind of batch cook.   So, I don't feel like I'm doing it all the time. And we also from a young age have equipped our kids to make their food. I remember we had someone stay with us, Laura, and they were like almost appalled.   They're like, “I mean, these young kids just got up and made their own food. Where was the mom?” And my husband said, “That's actually what we've trained them to do.”   I mean, they were getting like cereal. The other day, the baby of the family is almost nine and we do probably too much for her as one tends to do with their youngest child. And so, I equipped her and empowered her.   I said, “You know, Lark, you can make your own eggs.” And so, sure enough, she got a stool. I just reminded her to spray the pan and turn off the oven.   And she made herself, you know, eggs with bacon bits in it. And you can see that sense of pride. She was a little hesitant at first.   But I believe in working smarter, not harder. And so, we do divvy up, you know, chores around the house. In fact, I dare not say this too loudly.   But when I started writing, my husband said to our kids who were quite a lot younger at the time, “Guess what? Mom's not doing the dishes anymore. So, you guys are each going to have a night or two. And you're going to do those because we want her to be faithful to what God has also asked her to do. And you guys need to learn how to do this.” And so, Laura, when they first started loading the dishwasher, I had to fold my hands because they were not doing it in the way I would have envisioned.   But it was still getting it done. So, I have this little mantra. If someone else can do it with at least 75 percent, you know, effectiveness, then that should be good enough.   Because I think sometimes as women, we kind of want it my way or the highway. But then we wear ourselves out because we're trying to control or manage everything. And sometimes 75 percent is good enough.   Laura Dugger: (11:48 - 12:21) Katie, you sound like a wonderful mother. I think that's such a gift to your kids. Their studies show doing chores and being more self-sufficient, being trained that way is beneficial to them across the board.   So, I applaud you. Well done. But another one of your sweet spots that you seem to get after is healthy living.   And so, I'd love to know, what are some of your most beneficial lifestyle changes that you've implemented in your family? And now they've led to the greatest results.   Katie Reid: (12:22 - 15:12) Yeah, so, one of the things we do as a family is we go to the chiropractor. And I know that some people have mixed feelings about that, but we love our chiropractor. And, you know, I'll probably get the statistics, you know, not quite right. I'm a creative brain versus a very logical brain. But I do know there are many health benefits to chiropractic care. It boosts your immune system.   I can for me personally, some of the benefits is I used to get vertigo sometimes, which is a terrible thing if you've never had it, where the room is like spinning and I'd have to just lay in bed, which is not a great thing, you know, for our busy lifestyle. And so, I have less vertigo. I can move my head back and forth freely and lots of other things.   But one thing that was interesting, and we did interview my chiropractor on the Martha & Mary Show on the podcast, is there's so many things that can be benefits to it. And at my age, I'm almost 48. I can see 50 from a distance.   And my friends and I, Laura, are talking about our bodies so much. We are now like our moms would do. And even going to the bathroom more regularly can be a benefit of chiropractic care or, you know, your cramps not being as bad, all that.   So, that's one of the things we have done. This year, we are trying to walk a lot more. So, my husband and I and our two youngest children, we have this little half hour route that we do. And we were even doing it in the middle of winter. And then as things have gotten busier, that's fallen a little bit by the wayside, but just fresh air. We have some great conversations.   And the other thing, too, is I don't know if you're like this, Laura, but during COVID, we put on a lot of weight and we didn't realize it. We could see it in other people, but we went to the doctor and I was shocked by what I weighed. And I went to a naturopath and I just said, “Can you help me?”   And so, I thought I was taking good care of myself, Laura. But looking back, I surely was not. And a lot of it was what I was eating.   I was not drinking enough water. So, anyway, that helped to just the education of that our food has such an impact. And so, really it you know, we are not like health freaks by any means, but trying to have more vegetables, some healthy options.   I had no idea what a big deal protein was. I just didn't know, you know, as kids who ate SpaghettiOs and, you know, mac and cheese growing up in the 80s. There just wasn't as much out there about, you know, that connection with what you're putting in your body and how you're feeling.   Laura Dugger: (15:13 - 18:23) That's such a good point. I love hearing these habits and I very much enjoyed that episode that you did with your chiropractor. We'll have to link to that as well in the show notes.   And now a brief message from our sponsor. With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser Team is a RE-MAX agent of Central Illinois. And she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors.   For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831. And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer.   When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home. And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process.   This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team. The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market. But Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell.   She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process. And she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she's thought of everything.   And Sue's continued generosity was astonishing. I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home and she was knocking on the door, dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Miss Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home.   So, whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time, looking to upgrade, or downsize, or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years, Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress-free. And that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made. So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com. And that is sueneihouser.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Katie, you're such a go-getter and in the midst of homeschooling and writing this book, you also still pursue personal development and spiritual growth. So, do you have any systems or rhythms in place to support that growth?   Katie Reid: (18:24 - 21:43) Yeah, I think a couple of them. I often want to talk to people, talk about the Mary and Martha event. Some people are that way with Bible study and prayer. There are some who just love to study the Bible. There're others who lead with prayer. I've been the Bible study girl. I love to study, you know, as a teacher. Maybe that's just my thing. But prayer was something that I felt like I was always getting like a D minus in. And it's not that I never would, Laura, but, you know, I just have a friend, Lee, who co-hosts The Martha & Mary Show with me, and she is a prayer, a pray-er. And so, one of the things I did was I know accountability is key in developing healthy practices, whether that's physically or spiritually or emotionally.   And so, we started a mom's prayer group at our church that meets most Fridays throughout the year because I knew, I mean, surely I wasn't going to just pray on Fridays. But I knew if I had that group and I was helping lead it and show up that that would be a discipline that would get into my life. And it really has, but it just felt very daunting.   Another tip my friend gave me just with incorporating more prayer is to have like a trigger. So, every time you open a door to pray or every time you interact with water, let it serve as a reminder to pray. And again, I just need that kind of accountability in my life. I can get distracted easily.   And so, that was just another thing that helped me to just have that in the forefront of my mind. And I also feel like having teen and young adult children, you will just start praying much more naturally because you realize that your influence is shifting. You're more of a coach and a support than you are kind of that direct supervisor. And so, God gave me this phrase of like, "Prayer is the way sometimes we got to parenting, but prayer is also what we need to get through parenting."   And so, I have been doing much more prayer lately, but I just encourage the listeners, whether it's Bible study or prayer, which are essential to our spiritual growth, grab a friend and ask them, you know, you could text each other in the mornings, like, "Hey, I'm praying for you about this. Or will you pray about this?" But it is when we link arms, we have more effectiveness, I think, because we're not just trying to do it on our own. And I feel like in our culture, especially with all the pressures of, you know, social media and all of that, we try to be all things to our family, like, you know, grow organic vegetables and sew our kids' clothes and homeschool and you fill in the blank. But yet it's so much more accessible done in community. For example, I love batch cooking. So, maybe I could make an extra lasagna for someone and then I don't love to fold laundry, but maybe my friend comes over and we fold laundry together. I just think we can be so isolated. And we're missing out on sharing our strengths with others and them with us. And I just think family life is best done in community, if at all possible.   Laura Dugger: (21:44 - 22:15) That's so wise and so practical. I love that. Even the tip of when you interact with water to pray. That's really helpful. And speaking of spiritual growth, I do want to highlight some parts of your amazing book, which, as you said, it's entitled, God, What Do I Do? So, I want to just dive into a couple of the sections, beginning with, "God, what do I do with what you've given me?" So, Katie, can you just expound on that topic?   Katie Reid: (22:15 - 23:38) Yeah, for sure. So, we've all been given time, talents, treasures. You've probably heard those three Ts before. And at the end of my life, Laura, I want to be able to stand before the Lord and by His grace say that I was a faithful steward with what He has entrusted me. And I think we often are told, particularly as women, to keep everything in balance. And I don't know about you, Laura, but that just feels like pressure to me. Like, surely I'm going to drop one of these plates I'm spinning. And so, I like to think about it as being a faithful steward with what's right in front of me, because that feels more manageable. And yes, we still need the Lord's help to do that. But right now, we're doing this interview. So, I want to be a faithful steward of that. And then next, I'm going to go hang out with my college roommates and we're going to have a little reunion. And I want to be faithful with that. But I think we can get really overwhelmed when we're just trying to do everything perfectly. And in the study, we talk about faithfully stewarding the people, position, and place that God has put you in or that's before you. And I think that happens one decision at a time. And again, it feels more manageable when we think about it like that.   Laura Dugger: (23:39 - 23:48) I love that. I even love the questions that you ask about those specifics. Do you want to share those three questions?   Katie Reid: (23:49 - 26:27) Yeah. So, we talk about, you know, what people have you been entrusted with? What position have you been entrusted with? And what place have you been entrusted with? And I think that helps us recognize our purpose as well, like in the current season that we're in. But going back to the time, talents and treasures, you know, time, I feel like right now is such a precious commodity. And we talk about, you know, at church, like tithing your finances. But the idea I've heard people explain, what does it look like to tithe your time?   And I can cram so many things into the day that my husband and I are walking through this process of me having more margin in my life, more white space. And that's a part of stewarding our time. It doesn't mean we have to burn out and just run ragged. You know, we see this pattern in Jesus' life. He would minister and then He would retreat and recharge and then He'd minister. And I think there's some unhealth that we see in our culture and even in my own home with sometimes of just the unrealistic expectations I have.   And life happens. We could have a perfectly executed plan. But then this is a true story. The dog ate chocolate and we have to run for an emergency vet visit. Or I don't know about you, Laura, but you know, sometimes my kids want to have deep conversations at a time that is very inconvenient. But we want to take advantage of those times and take that opportunity.   And so, just going before the Lord and saying, "God, you have given me time. You've given me talents. You've given me treasures. And I want to faithfully steward them. Show me how to move forward in a way that honors you." And I think we have to be careful sometimes. I think we need to put some blinders on because what you are called to might be totally different than what your sister is called to or what I'm called to. And that we need to listen and have the abiding relationship with the Lord because we need to faithfully steward what He's asked us to do, not what He's asked someone else to do. And so, I love that word, too. What God has "entrusted" to us, again, could look a lot of different ways. But He doesn't require perfection. That's why Jesus came, because we couldn't do it. And He's with us in it. And we want to move forward with Him as we manage the people and the place and the position that He's entrusted to us.   Laura Dugger: (26:27 - 27:14) Oh, that's so good. And just to dig a little deeper then, too, I feel like I'm in a similar place where I sense the Lord asking me this week, asking me to ask Him, "What pace do you want me to be living at? What pace is healthy and sustainable? And what changes do I need to make?" So, I feel like I'm just on the beginning of this journey. But if you and your husband have already been diving in to margin, which is a word that I feel like I could answer with, and maybe slowing down a little bit, how do you do that? You're a creative as well, and you've got all these ideas and these good things that you want to go after. Do you have any practical parameters or pieces of discernment in place to know how to create margin as well?   Katie Reid: (27:15 - 29:12) Yeah, I think one thing that I am still learning is that “yes" has a cost to it, right? Now, of course, if Jesus asked us to do something, we want to say yes, regardless of the cost. But let's say someone asked me if I would write an article for a website and I'm launching these books. That sounds like a great idea. But Laura, sometimes I forget what that yes will mean. That's going to be at least three hours of time. And so, to almost look at the ask and associate them with time. And so, while that's a great thing, I also have kids that are in sports right now, and I don't want to miss those sports. Or could I use an article I've used before? Do they want original content? And so, I think with our yes' and no's, just thinking about, again, unless it's an obedience thing where the Lord has just made it so clear.   The other thing my husband often says to me is, "OK, Katie, that is a great opportunity. But what is going to come off of your plate to make room for that?" Where I can just keep heaping it on and it's spilling on a potluck when you overfill your plate and it's all spilling out and just making a mess. And so, that's another thing of like, "OK, what will come off?" I also run things by my husband or a close friend to say I have this opportunity for this. "What do you think?" Because sometimes we have those blind spots where we can't see what that might mean in the future. So, kind of a board of advisors, if you will, people who know you well know your personality. And just because it's a good idea doesn't mean it's a bad idea. And that can be so hard, especially if we're good at something. Sometimes we think it's an automatic yes, but we have to evaluate the season that we are in as well.   Laura Dugger: (29:13 - 30:26) Did you know that this podcast is 100% listener supported? We love producing free content that's available to everyone around the world with our monthly newsletters when you sign up for our email list and with our weekly episodes. We pray that this has been a benefit to you, that if any episode has ever impacted you, what we ask is that you will partner with us now and generously and prayerfully give financially before the end of the year.   There're multiple ways to do this online at TheSavvySauce.com. You can donate through Stripe or PayPal or Venmo with just a simple click, or you can send snail mail to us at Savvy Sauce Charities, P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois, 61561. We hope you choose to support us today.   The word discernment comes to mind with your book. It's a lot of discernment, a lot of these questions as we're turning to God. So, can you share any of the parts of the section that you wrote about, "God, What Do I Do Next?"   Katie Reid: (30:27 - 34:11) Absolutely. You know, I'm a pretty decisive person, but I know a lot of people are not, and they can be overwhelmed. I mean, even at the grocery store, if we're trying to pick out cereal or Band-Aids even, there are so many options that it can just become overwhelming. We're inundated by information. And so, I think when we are not sure what to do next, there are things we actually can decide, even if we don't specifically know what to do about a situation. And that's a lot of what is found in God, What Do I Do?.   And we follow the Israelites as they're entering the Promised Land. They made some not great choices sometimes, and they made some good choices sometimes. But the idea of their leader had died and they needed to know what to do next. And one of the first things they do, we see in Judges 1:1, is they inquire of the Lord. They go to the Lord and ask Him what they're supposed to do. And Laura, we can never go wrong doing that.   I have a dear friend who told me one time, "Katie, I don't like praying out loud because I just have really simple prayers. They are not eloquent." And I reassured her, you know what? SOS prayers totally count. So, if you find yourself in a situation where you do not know what to do next: "Lord, help me. Lord, I need you." You cannot go wrong praying those prayers. And there's actually, the Bible study goes through six decisions we can make, even if we don't know specifically what to do. And the first one in the introductory lesson is the decision to remember. The more kids I've had and the older I've gotten, I get a little more forgetful. I used to be so good at Memory, that game. And now it's like, I don't know, I'm going to pick the same ones every time. We can be forgetful. But when we recount God's faithfulness in the Bible and also what He's done in our own lives, it can help us make more clear-headed decisions. We have this little box in our home that we decorated back in the scrapbooking days. And inside it, we have a couple pictures and objects that remind us of things God has done for us in the past. One of the things He had asked us to do when we did not have much money, we were getting ready to move across the country and we had two vehicles. And we could have really used the money from the vehicle, one of our vehicles, but the Lord put on both my heart and my husband's heart to give away a vehicle.   And so many people, even Christian believers close to us, Laura, were like, "I don't know, that doesn't seem very wise." But we knew God's voice. We knew what He was asking and it was such a blessing in it. And so, we have a picture of that car, and we have that in the box. And so, I have not done a great job of pulling the box out a lot, especially with our younger kids. But it's just kind of those memorial stones of "Remember how God did this."   I remember one time we were having car difficulties, and I told the family, I said, "You know, wouldn't it be great if someone at church just handed us an envelope with the money we need to repair this vehicle?" And my kids kind of rolled their eyes. "Oh, there's mom and her big faith again." And Laura, wouldn't you know it, someone came up to my husband and said, "We just want to gift you this." And it was like $200 and it was exactly what we needed. And so, it's like stories like that to remember God has been faithful in the past. He will continue to be faithful, even if I don't know specifically what to do about a situation. He will be with me in it.   Laura Dugger: (34:12 - 34:42) Wow, that is incredible. And those spiritual markers build confidence and faith in us with our own journey. But like you said, passing them along to the next generation, that is huge and sharing these stories of God's faithfulness. And this is just such a small sample of your book, because I just want to make sure we highlight one other piece, but you share this insight about one part of the question, "God, what do I do to encourage those around me?"   Katie Reid: (34:43 - 36:25) Yes. So, we look in Judges 4, we met a judge Deborah and there was a military commander named Barak. And so, Deborah was a prophetess and judge, and she goes to Barak and reminds him of what God has already told him. Isn't that a good friend? And she said, "Hey, hasn't God said," and then reminds him. And you know what I love about this is we see this collaboration for the Kingdom.   And maybe it's more of an exhortation than an encouragement. But then later on in Judges 5, there's the song that Deborah and Barak sing. And part of the song is they are calling out those that helped them in battle. And, you know, it's an encouragement. They also call out those who didn't help in a different kind of call out way. But sometimes it bolsters our faith.   If someone else speaks into our life and says, "I see this in you." And a lot of times we think that encouragement, but we don't give voice to it. And I can look back over my life when people have taken the time to encourage me. It's like we cling to those words to keep going. Something we do at our church is the last Sunday of the month we have testimony time. And it is so encouraging to hear what God is doing in other people's lives. And in our own struggles, it can really bolster our faith to keep holding on and to celebrate what He's doing in them. So, I think giving credit to God for what He's done in testimony can really help encourage those around us as well.   Laura Dugger: (36:26 - 37:12) Wow, that is awesome. I love that you do that at your church. Such a practical way to live out so much of the Bible that talks about sharing His story, sharing His faithfulness, and that we overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb, which is already taken care of, and the word of our testimony. That's so powerful. And Katie, you're just fascinating and multifaceted. And there's a piece of your bio that I just love. You say that you're an "Inspiration Doula". So, I want to hear some of your favorite ways, whether it's questions or stories or bits of wisdom, to share so that you can encourage creatives, which is hopefully all of us because we're created in our Creator God's image.   Katie Reid: (37:14 - 40:11) You know, Laura, I love to see what God, how He has wired different people and encouraged them to share that gift with the world. I love holding the ladder for people so they can climb higher and do more. And sometimes I think on this crazy journey of podcasting and writing and speaking, sometimes I get the sense that God is allowing me to walk through these doors so that I can turn around and help someone else do it but even go further and do more than I have.   Nothing brings me more joy than seeing someone using their giftings. For example, we had a writing retreat recently that really turned into a spiritual renewal retreat. And one of my friends, she is very content to stay home with her kids. She is pretty introverted, but God has given her these talents that she is using more and more. For example, she directed a skit that's, you know, at our church for Easter and did such a great job. And she has written this book that's kind of like a Little House on the Prairie-esque book. And she was working on it at the writing retreat. And, you know, she's around these other women that are speaking all over the country and doing all these things. And so, some way she's like, "What am I doing here?"   And we reassured her she was right where she should be. And so, this fall she's going to teach this class using her book with homeschool students. And then they're going to write their own books. And Laura, I just think it's so fun to see her using what God has placed in her hands in her sphere of influence. And so, I love to—a lot of times people just need that nudge and a little bit of cheerleading to take those next brave steps. I also sometimes they just need to see somebody else doing it to realize that they can do it too.   And again, it can look so many different ways from having people into your home. I have a friend named Cherry and she started a ministry called "Welcome to the Table" where once a month she welcomes women into her home. They share a meal and it has just exploded because people are hungry literally and figuratively for that kind of community. So, a lot of times my coaching looks like encouragement, looks like some practical steps that they can take. A lot of times creatives are not finishers. And I have this weird blend of creativity and administration.   And I just love to help people kind of have a roadmap for what would it look like to get it done. And so many people do not set deadlines, Laura. They're like, "Yes, I'm going to write that book. Or yes, I'm going to start that event. Or yes, I'm going to start a book club." But then they don't give themselves a deadline. So, even just that little tip of like tell somebody else your deadline can really help get the wheels turning.   Laura Dugger: (40:11 - 40:41) That's good. Again, such practical advice. And Katie, you are such a natural encourager. There's even a joy or lightheartedness in your voice and a warmth. And I love how you come alongside others and help develop them and see their dreams fulfilled. So, I love that generosity of spirit. But I also want to hear what else is coming next for you, including, will you tell us about this novel that's becoming a movie?   Katie Reid: (40:42 - 42:40) Yes. So, interestingly enough, when I launched my first book, Made Like Martha came out in 2018. And then I had this idea for a book about Deborah from Judges. Well, wouldn't you know, here we are seven years later and that book is finally coming out. So, in the meantime, as I was encountering a lot of closed doors about this particular book, I was like, "Well, I'm a creative and I'm a writer. And if I can't write nonfiction, I guess I'll try fiction."   And so, I wrote a Hallmark-like story called A Very Bavarian Christmas. We self-published it. It came out in 2020. And funny that God knew that people actually needed something lighthearted with a happy ending because I wrote it in 2019. And then when it came out, people were hunkered down and just needed that kind of feel good type of clean rom-com. And so, I call this the little book that could, Laura, because literally I got an email from Carlos from California and that it went to my spam folder. And it surely sounded like spam, but what Carlos said is, "Our team has read your book and we would like to purchase the movie rights." And so, sometime in the future, it will likely be on UP TV. There's going to be a movie based on my novel.   And then the sequel, A Very Bavarian Summer, has recently come out. July 5th was its release date. And it's just been such a fun journey. So, a publisher ended up picking up the series. And I was just as surprised as anyone. I was hoping it would be a movie. I kind of wrote it like that. And again, there was many voices saying, "Yeah, you know, you're not a fiction writer. So, let's kind of see how it goes." But I just knew that God had given me this story and that anything is possible. And it wasn't a guarantee. It would all turn out how I thought it would. But it's been a very fun and exciting journey for sure.   Laura Dugger: (42:41 - 42:52) That's incredible. So excited for you. I have to keep us posted for when we can see that. But where else can we go after this conversation to continue learning more from you?   Katie Reid: (42:53 - 43:51) Well, the best place is at my website, katiemreid.com. And Reid is R-E-I-D. And if you subscribe, listeners, to my website, I send out a good newsletter, I call it, once a month with all the things. I'm also on Instagram @katiem_reid. And then my books are available, Made Like Martha, God, What Do I Do?, A Very Bavarian Christmas, and A Very Bavarian Summer. And so, we're also pitching another Bible study. So, hopefully in a year or so there will be some more. But I love to resource people. My desire, whether I am writing nonfiction or fiction, is to see captives set free. Because Jesus has set me free. And I long for others to live that abundant life with Jesus. And so, that thread is throughout each resource we offer. And I would love to connect with listeners over my website or online.   Laura Dugger: (43:52 - 44:17) I'll make sure to link to all of that in the show notes. I love that, setting the captives free, joining that good work that Jesus is doing. And Katie, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce. Because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight or discernment. So, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Katie Reid: (44:18 - 45:12) Well, I am bad at small talk. I like to go deep fast. And so, I feel like my savvy sauce is asking meaningful questions. Whether that be of my spouse or my kids. And really getting to know their heart and what makes them tick. We call them quality questions.   And I think people are willing to open up when they feel safe, when they feel seen, and when they feel known. And so, I love to just kind of dive in deep. In fact, my husband and I will joke if we're out on a double date or something. I'll just say, "Listen, I'm bad at small talk. So, can we talk about fill in the blank?" And so, I think that's one of my savvy sauces. It might annoy some people, I guess. But I think it's really fun to watch someone talk about something they're passionate about. And just get to know them better.   Laura Dugger: (45:13 - 45:52) Amen to that. I love that so much. I do not think it's obnoxious or annoying or anything. I actually very much appreciate when we first met through Justin and Jenny Moss. And Justin's been a repeat guest, so I'll link to his episodes as well. But we met at their daughter's wedding. And I was instantly drawn to you. And it was near the end of the night, so we didn't get to spend as much time together as I hoped. But you have that magnetic personality. And I love even the gifts of your decisiveness. And the way that you're able to articulate all of your wisdom and share it with us. It was such a blessing. So, thank you for being my guest today.   Katie Reid: (45:53 - 46:04) Laura, thank you so much. And I love what you're doing with The Savvy Sauce podcast. And you are just shining and in your element. And it's so evident. And I just appreciate you.     Laura Dugger: (46:04 – 49:49) Thank you, Katie. One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

“Therefore see that you walk carefully [living life with honor, purpose, and courage; shunning those who tolerate and enable evil], not as the unwise, but as wise [sensible, intelligent, discerning people], making the very most of your time [on earth, recognizing and taking advantage of each opportunity and using it with wisdom and diligence], because the days are [filled with] evil.” Ephesians 5:15-16 AMP   *Transcription Below*   Questions and Topics We Discuss: How did God meet you in your experience of army life to reveal your choice of hope vs. fear? What have you learned about community, both before and after your experience of launching your husband into space? For all of us, how can we rediscover our fun side when we've been trapped in survival mode for too long?   Stacey Morgan is always ready with a funny or thoughtful story from her own life; whether it be holding down the home front during military deployments, working for the Smithsonian, skydiving, or blasting  her husband into outer space. Stacey is on staff with MOPS International, a nonprofit focused on the unique needs of mothers around the world. She and her husband, Army colonel and NASA astronaut Drew Morgan, have four children.   Connect with Stacey on Instagram or through her website.   Other Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Friendship: Friendship with Drew Hunter Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Rach Kincaid Nurturing Friendships with Jackie Coleman Art of Friendship with Kim Wier   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:54) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.   Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.   I'm so excited to share a special Patreon re-release episode. And if you've been with The Savvy Sauce for a while, you know that we used to make some money by having people sign up for Patreon and as a reward, they would get access to special episodes. Now we have done away with that as we've transitioned to becoming a nonprofit, and we want to make all of these episodes available to you, so we re-release a few every year.   What I'd love to ask is, as we're approaching the end of year because we've taken out that revenue stream, would you consider financially supporting Savvy Sauce Charities?   There are two simple ways. First, if you want to mail us a check, that saves us all of the processing fees, and you can make that out to Savvy Sauce Charities and mail it to P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois 61561. Also, if you want to go online, visit thesavvysauce.com and you can type in different words to the search button. You could type in “donate” or “support” and it should take you to the place where there's a button to click and put in your credit card information and give that way. We would be so grateful for any amount, and we love our partnership with you.   Here's our chat.   Stacey Morgan is my guest today, and you may have heard her name in the news over the past few years. She has documented her story in her debut book, The Astronaut's Wife: How Launching My Husband into Outer Space Changed the Way I Live on Earth. And now she's going to share more about that season and all the lessons God taught her about making the most of her one incredible life, and she's going to inspire each of us to do the same.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.   Stacey Morgan: (2:55 - 2:58) I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger: (2:58 - 3:07) Well, it is truly my pleasure. And will you just start by giving us a little bit more context for our time together and just share a few things about yourself?   Stacey Morgan: (3:08 - 4:49) Sure. Well, hi, my name is Stacey. I currently live in Texas.   I have four kids. I'm married to a guy named Drew who has kind of an unusual job. I grew up in a small town just outside of Boston and was kind of a scholar-athlete growing up interested in a lot of different things but always involved in church and youth group. And that really served me well when I went off to college.   The first college I went to, West Point. And actually, I'll tell you in a minute, but that is where I eventually met my now husband, Drew.   We got married after I graduated from undergrad. He's a little bit older than me and he is an Army officer. And so, we have moved all over the country. We've lived on both coasts and had a number of kinds of unusual situations just, you know, kind of typical for a military family living all over the place.   I've had a lot of crazy jobs. I think mainly I have an unusual story because I'm really quick to say yes to things, which sometimes, you know, it's a double-edged sword. Sometimes you say yes and you realize, “I should have thought through that a little bit more.” But really it's been quite an adventure because we have had the opportunity to live in a lot of different places, experience a lot of different things.   And we ended up here in 2013. We can kind of get into that if you want, but we ended up down here in Texas with my husband, who is still an Army officer, but he became a NASA astronaut. And so, that totally changed the direction of our lives and kind of changing all the plans we had for what we were supposed to be doing in the military and ending up down here at Johnson Space Center. Then, him eventually launching into outer space.   Laura Dugger: (4:49 - 5:01) Wow, there are so many points to unpack, but let's back it up to what you had mentioned about West Point. So, will you just elaborate and tell us more about how you and Drew met and fell in love?   Stacey Morgan: (5:01 - 7:21) Sure. So, we were both cadets at West Point when we met. He was a little bit older than me, but we met through Officers' Christian Fellowship, which is a Christian club that is very popular on military bases, both at the academies but in big Army and other services as well when you get out.   It's a, you know, it's like small groups, typical for what most people would find comfortable in kind of church community. And so, we met there and we just kind of clicked, you know.   I would say it's funny looking back, we were not the type of people I think we would have thought we would marry. He was far more serious than I am. I'm a little bit more, I'm the one to more kind of like walk the fine line, but we work together really well.   We've always been a great team. That's always been a real theme in our marriage, you know, that we are a team. And, you know, when he proposed after I graduated from undergrad, he kind of said, “I promise you a life of adventure,” which at the time sounded wonderful and adorable.   Of course, it has come back to haunt me several times when he has been, you know, come up with some crazy plan and when I hesitate he's like, “I promised you adventure.” And I'm like, “Now that's unfair. I did not know when you said adventure back in 2000 that you meant all these crazy things like going to space or all these different deployments and all this kind of stuff like that.”   So, we now have four kids. We've been married this summer will be 22 years. And, you know, it hasn't been without its challenges like any marriage and certainly any marriage under stress because of stressful situations, whether that's military deployments, whether that's space travel or just kind of life and parenting. And as you kind of grow up together and get to know each other and the world changes around you, we've certainly had ups and downs, but we are a team.   And I think God has really honored that and it's been really helpful for us when we've had those sticky seasons where you just feel like, “Man, we are just not connecting or kind of jiving the way we would want,” to actually say to each other that we are on the same team and that has been really helpful.   Laura Dugger: (7:22 - 7:40) The part of your story that involves space travel is one that most of us will never be able to relate to experientially, but it's still extraordinary. So, can you walk us through the detailed events leading up to 9:28 p.m. on July 20th, 2019?   Stacey Morgan: (7:42 - 15:28) Sure. So, I should back it up one big step behind that just to give everybody a little context. So, in 2012, we were kind of living our lives. We had always been deep into the Army Special Operations community. We love that. In order to live and kind of thrive in that environment you have to be all in, and we were all in.   And one day my husband came home and he was uncharacteristically giddy and he said, “You're not gonna believe this huge news. NASA is opening up the application window for a new class of astronauts.”   And I thought, “Why are you telling me this? This has no bearing whatsoever on our lives. We are on this path and that is a completely different path.”   And he said, “Well, I want to apply.”   And I thought to myself, “Well, I wanted to be a ballerina at one point in life, but that ship sailed. Like who doesn't say they always wanted to be an astronaut? Like this seems like a childhood fantasy.”   But he said, “No, I just want to apply. Like don't worry, all of our plans are gonna stay the same. They've never selected an Army physician before. I just, you know, I want to...” You know, the joke was that you'll always be a NASA applicant, right? And that'll be great. We'll laugh about it at family Christmases and stuff.   Except he kept making it through every gate. And so, in 2013 we got the call that completely took our life off of one set of train tracks and put it on another. At that time, we were currently stationed just outside of Washington DC at Fort Belvoir. We were supposed to be literally the next week moving to Germany. And that's how close these changes kind of came up on themselves. And so, we had to unravel everything for Germany and move to Houston, Texas, because that's where Johnson Space Center is.   And so, he began his training in 2013. I started my journey in learning a whole new culture, a whole new way of doing life. I'd never lived in a place that was at least not near a military base or within a military community. Didn't quite recognize at the time how much that shared sense of community had made things easier in terms of connecting with people before that and when I didn't have it.   So, it was probably our rockiest transition for me personally that I'd ever had in terms of friendships and getting connected. That's a big part of my story because I think friendship struggles are so common for adult women. It's just something that nobody really teaches us how to do and so a lot of women are very lonely.   But fast forward, he trained for several years until it was eventually his turn to fly. And in 2019, the only way to get to the International Space Station was to fly on a Russian Soyuz rocket. So, some people are very confused because they think, “Well, every space movie I've ever watched is taking place in Florida, right? Whether that's Apollo 13 or Armageddon or whatever. Why didn't he launch from Florida?”   Well, between 2011 and 2020, the Space Shuttle program had ended. SpaceX Crew Dragon had not yet started launching from Florida again. So, for about a 10-year period, the only way to get to and from the International Space Station was to ride a Russian rocket.   So, that's what NASA did. They went into partnership with the Russians, which of course makes things very interesting given today's kind of current political climate and all the world events. But that meant when it was Drew's turn to launch, we as a family had to travel to Kazakhstan, which is a country that I could not spell before 2019.   And so, if you don't know where that is, don't feel bad. I didn't either. I had to look it up. It's a former Soviet Republic really kind of in between Russia and Afghanistan. So, it is in the middle of nowhere. And when the Soviets were building their space program in the 1950s and 60s, they built their secret space city there in Kazakhstan. That's where they started their space program and they have kind of kept it unchanged and they continue to launch their rockets from there today.   It was a whole kind of world travel and cultural experience to take my four kids to Kazakhstan, which is a completely different cultural experience for really what came down to a very stressful, very emotional moment really waiting for that launch. So, unlike Florida, which you know when you watch on television, it's colorful, there's a lot of people, a lot of spectators, big people remember from the shuttle days big countdown clock, a loudspeaker kind of telling everybody what's going on... that's not how it is in Kazakhstan.   So, about 30 minutes before the launch, the kids and I were brought to this viewing area. And by viewing area I would say big field. It's not... there was kind of some grandstands area far at the other end of the field, but that's where all the space tourists stand and the press and all that kind of stuff and we didn't want to be near them. So, our escort brought us down to the end, the other end of the field, and it's just dark and it's quiet and there's no announcements. There's no countdown clock. It's just looking at your watch or your phone there just kind of in the dark and you just know that that Russian ground crew is going to launch that rocket at exactly 9:28 p.m. Not a minute earlier, not a minute later.   And so, standing there in the dark holding my kids' hands, and we can see the rocket in the distance only about a mile away, which by rocket launch standards is very close. Knowing that in a minute or 30 seconds or 10 seconds as it gets closer, it's either going to be one of the best days of your life, super exciting, super proud moment, or it's going to be the worst day of your life, and you could become a widow.   And as much as it's easy to kind of get complacent because incidents are so rare, but we all can remember any number of space disasters that have happened. Columbia, Challenger, those are very real. And with my time down here at Johnson Space Center, you come to learn those names and you meet those families and you meet those widows and widowers and you realize that space travel is dangerous. You know, at the end of the day my husband was in a little tiny capsule on top of a rocket full of highly explosive fuel. So, it's very scary.   And in that moment standing there thinking, “In 10 seconds my life is going to change no matter what happens.” Even if this goes perfectly, what happens next? I don't really know. It's kind of like having a baby. You can read all about it and assume things will be the way they're going to be, but until you're in it and then it happens, you don't really know how it's gonna go.   And so, it was a really overwhelmingly emotional moment because you think this could go sideways. And also, by the way, the world is watching live with me. So, if something goes wrong, I'm not able to process this privately. I will be experiencing it in real time with the rest of the world.   But even if it goes perfectly, what happens next? Like what does it look like to live on earth with a spouse in space and single parent for nine plus months while their other parent is in space? And you really don't know and it's scary to think like, “Gosh, what if something happens?” You know, he can't like come home early. Can't just like a business trip jump on a plane or a train and get home early. There's no coming back early. So, whatever happens, I'm on my own for better or worse. I'm on my own and I hope I have the endurance and the support system and everything I'm gonna need in order to be successful in this nine months.   Laura Dugger: (15:28 - 15:47) And my heart is pounding a little bit faster just as I hear you describe this. And I'd love to get back to your story, but first just to pause and wonder with that mixture of this adventure right in front of you and then your experience of army life, how did God meet you in all of that to reveal your choice of you're able to choose hope or fear?   Stacey Morgan: (15:47 - 22:32) Right. So, you know, when you take the time to step back and think, sometimes you don't see these patterns in your life until you kind of start putting them down on paper. And it was interesting for me to see how God had prepared me for that moment with other moments, especially related to military deployments in the past. Because certainly experiencing a rocket launch and all that fear and kind of this moment of where is my hope found in this moment, that was a varsity level moment.   But I'm so thankful that about ten years earlier God really started to prepare me for that moment with some other big moments. Like when my husband deployed for the first time.   I'll never forget, it was the height of the War on Terror. So, we were living in a military community which was amazing and a lot of my friends' husbands were also serving in the same military units or similar military units and they were deploying. The tempo was high so that meant, you know, six months deployed or longer, coming home for short amounts of time and then deploying again. Lots of action specifically in Afghanistan and Iraq at the time.   And so, lots of fatalities, lots of injuries, lots of grief, and for spouses a lot of fear because we knew what they were doing was very dangerous. And so, for me and my friends we kind of had this unspoken rule which I think a lot of people can understand which was, “Let's just not talk about this scariest thing because somehow talking about it makes it seem more possible.”   And as crazy as that is to say, people get that. You know, there's a lot of things we don't talk about because it's just too scary to think about. And so, for us the scariest thing in our life at that time was the fear that our husbands would not come home, that they would be killed in action. And that felt very real because we were going to memorial services, we were visiting people in the hospital, we were turning on the news and seeing what was going on in the world. And there was often communication blackouts because we knew that they were doing things that were very dangerous, very secretive.   And so, at the time I happily did what everybody else was doing which was, “Let's just not talk about it. Let's just kind of live life managing.” We felt like we were managing this fear, I think that's what I would have said at the time.   But then one day my friend Lisa, who's an amazing friend and she's always like two steps ahead of me on the wisdom scale, we were having coffee on her front porch and she turned to me and she said, “I've been thinking a lot about what life would be like if our husbands were killed.”   And this was like a bomb drop. I mean because we just were not supposed to be talking about this. Like here the rest of us had been avoiding all morbid thoughts about what could possibly happen with our husband and instead she had like turned and looked it straight in the eye.   And I was shocked. And so, I kind of sat up straighter and I said, “What do you mean?”   And she said, “Well, I've been thinking about it and it's not that, you know, life would certainly be hard and doesn't mean we wouldn't need counseling or our kids wouldn't need support, but life would still go on even if that happened. Life would still go on. Life would still be full of good things and God would provide and bring people around us to support us and I've just been thinking about that.”   And I was stunned. I was absolutely stunned because while the rest of us were too afraid to face that fear, in looking at it she kind of exposed it for what it was, which was certainly real and an absolute possibility that that could happen. But when she started walking down the path of like, “Okay, if this happened then what would happen?” You have to decide, “Do I believe God would really be with me or not? Do I believe His promises are true that He will be with me on good days and bad days and that He will draw people to me who will love me and support me? And have I plugged myself into friends and a faith community that would be there for me if that happened?”   And it was a game changer. That was probably one of, at the time, the biggest life-changing conversations I'd ever had as an adult because it really did shift how I viewed feeling afraid about things like that. And so, I had several opportunities... Drew deployed several times and then certainly doesn't take combat deployments to feel afraid like that. I know I have felt it before when my daughter was in the NICU, you know, and I had to leave her in the NICU and go home at night. I know I have felt it during this pandemic several times. I know I'm gonna feel it when I drop my oldest off at college this summer. You know, this moment where it just life feels very scary mainly because of the unknowns that come next and the fact that you have no control over those.   And so, that rocket launch moment was, you know, I felt like God was really prompting me in that moment to say, “Hey, if this rocket explodes like what will you do with that? Do you still trust me that I'm here with you and that I will still bring people to you and love you? Like is your support, is your foundation and your hope truly found in me or is it found in this rocket launch going successfully? Because it might not, and then what does that mean for you?”   And so, it really was this choice of am I gonna choose to live a life of fear, which is our default because if you do not choose something else we will always live a life dictated by fear of something. It's exhausting to live like that because once you conquer one fear another one's gonna pop up. Then they come in bunches and they just start layering on top of each other. Honestly it can lead to despair because there's plenty of things in the world to be afraid of and new ones just pop up every day.   So instead, I felt like God was offering me a new way of living and it really felt tangible in that moment of that rocket launch which is, “Hey, I hope that you will choose to find your hope in me. Just me. The one unchanging thing in this world that will be unchanging regardless of what happens with this rocket launch in 10 seconds. But if it goes well or if it goes poorly I am unchanging. You can rely on me. I will be with you in the best and the worst of times. And even if the rocket launch goes successfully and whatever happens in the next nine months, I'm with you there as well. So, you don't need to be afraid because I'm here with you. You can have hope that I will enable you to do what must be done no matter what happens tomorrow.”   Laura Dugger: (22:32 - 22:49) I'm so grateful that you chose hope and you chose faith. And then after all of that excitement and that adrenaline experienced on launch day, what did your life look like in the months to follow?   Stacey Morgan: (22:49 - 26:47) Yeah, it wasn't easy. You know I joke that those nine months really were like it was like a master class in all these little lessons I've learned throughout the years, but I'd never had to put them into practice at this level and all at the same time.   So, things like being honest about that I needed help. That, you know, there are times in the past where I have certainly wanted people to know or think that I had it all together and that I could do it all by myself especially, you know, I think every mom feels that way.   Certainly, military spouses, we take a lot of pride and feel like I'm doing this on my own.   And I realize now that I had certain seasons I have made life a lot harder for myself because I somehow thought that there was like an extra trophy if I finish the race by myself. I said that it was like, spoiler, there's no trophy. And also, I was just making it harder for myself.   And so, this season I could not fake it. Like past seasons I could fake it. This one I could not fake it. I had two teenagers, two tweens, a lot of hormones and then prepubescent and puberty things flying around. Just a lot of scheduling, a lot of driving, like just life. And then just the stress of living with someone who, you know, a spouse who was living in space and the stress of what does that do to your marriage, to parenting and, you know, parent-child relationships. Just every single piece of running a house, of parenting all the things, was solely on my shoulders and that's a big weight. And it was tough. It was tough.   So, I could not fake it. I had to ask for help. I had to be willing to ask for it and receive it, which are two different skill sets I found. It's sometimes you get good at one and not the other. I had to get really willing to be vulnerable as my friends and say things like, “I'm really lonely.” Can you know, it's like being honest. Like everything's not just, “Oh, this is so exciting. Oh, isn't it so great? Aren't we just so proud of them?” Yes, but at the same time sometimes I'm lonely. Sometimes I'm struggling.   Sometimes in my stress I would overly focus on trying to control my home life or what was happening within my own house and become not as pleasant of a person to live with because I was just trying to kind of regain some control in what felt like a little bit of a chaotic world and then you become not your best self and you know that. And so, I had to learn how to kind of get out of that survival mode and still have fun even when life is hard. And really just kind of accept that life isn't one thing or the other. You can be in a hard season and it still have good things in it. Life can be full of opportunities and challenges and one does not negate the other. And when you try to live your life by one narrative or the other, not only are you faking it but you make life harder than it needs to be and you kind of block other people out of it.   So, there was a lot of learning going on in there but we really all came down to that first decision of how am I gonna live my life in this season? Am I gonna live it fearfully, reactionary, hair trigger, you know, just stress all the time because I'm afraid of what comes next. I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to handle it? Or am I gonna live a life of hope, which is of course like not wishes and dreams but it is anticipation that God will be with me no matter what comes down the pipeline. And sometimes that's divine comfort that is hard to explain but you just feel it. Sometimes it's people he draws to your life who literally will sit on the couch with you and just like hold your hand or give you a hug that moment you need it. Sometimes it's someone offering to carpool or take your kid out driving because they're trying to get their driver's license, you know?   But that's really the biggest thing for me. I talked about it in chapter one of the book because that's the foundation that really all those other lessons were built on.   Laura Dugger: (26:47 - 27:26) And I think also with your book, it was helpful to hear little insights into what it looked like for your marriage. And it was even interesting when you said it's really important for astronauts to have forms of entertainment and that you were so committed to being involved in Drew's life and that you two still found ways to stay connected. I just think that has to be encouraging to any married couples listening right now because you clearly had a big barrier to overcome. But what were some of those ways that the two of you tried as best as you could in that season to stay intimately connected to one another's lives?   Stacey Morgan: (27:26 - 31:19) Yeah, it's not easy. And I think there's kind of this fallacy that is kind of dangerous for especially young married I think to believe which is like in every season of your life you're gonna feel amazingly connected to your spouse and you're gonna constantly be growing in your relationship. And sometimes that's not true. Like sometimes one person has a job that takes them away from home or someone is sick or there are other issues going on in your life where the connection is just not as strong not because you don't want it to be but because the circumstances you find yourself in don't allow for that.   And certainly, while my husband was in space that was a lot of challenges to feeling connected. I mean there's good communication but there's a difference between like quality and quantity, right? So, he could call me on the phone every day but because of the time differences and his schedule the only time he could call me was between 4:00 and 5:00 p.m. my time, which as any person knows and with any kids, is like the worst time of the day. Like everything's happening, the wheels are coming off, homework, pickups, dinner prep, like all that kind of stuff was crazy.   So, needless to say, I was not able to sit down and have like a heartfelt drawn-out conversation. And then kids hate talking on the phone so he wasn't really talking to them during the day. I'm like, you know, my eight-year-old isn't gonna send him an email. So, you know, there wasn't like a lot of quality or quantity conversation with the kids which of course puts a little stress on your marriage too because you worry about that.   And then we have one video chat a month and you want it to be fun. You want it to kind of be good for the kids as well as him but it's a very, you know, it's one hour to share between five people and so that's not a lot of time. And so, the reality is that for that season there was a lot of, I would say, relationship treading water. And you're, you know, the goal is just not to let things go downhill, which you can easily do in life when you and your spouse are experiencing the same event but from different points of view. And that's what we were doing. You know, we were sharing the mission but from two vastly different points of view.   And so, you do your best. But the difference is I think you have to in order to kind of come out on the other end better, you have to have a kind of a mutual commitment that, “Hey, we're going to... we are eventually going to come back together on this. We can't change the circumstances. I can't make the time difference different. I can't give you more time on the phone. I can't... there's things I just cannot change. But we are committed as a team to doing the best we can right now and when this circumstance changes, in this case when he came home, we're gonna kind of back up again and do some story sharing and reconnect about some things that we just didn't have the opportunity to in the past.”   And so, it's a little bit kind of like two steps forward one step back but eventually you still come out ahead if you are committed to trying to come back together and share those experiences in one way or another. Where you run into kind of danger is if people start experiencing two different things and then they never come back together so the gap just kind of keeps widening and widening. And then you hear when people say like, “Yeah, I woke up and I felt like I was living a different life than the person who was sleeping next to me.”   And so, reminding us to ourselves that we are a team even though we were experiencing the same thing. I didn't know a lot about a lot of the things he was doing. He didn't know a lot of stories about how things were for me. And so, it's okay to tell them later if you don't have the ability to tell them in the moment as long as you both have the goodwill and you prioritize coming back together eventually.   Laura Dugger: (31:19 - 34:26) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right. Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University.   Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia. This online self-paced program includes 13 associate's degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees, and two master's programs, including an MBA. College courses are fully transferable both in and out of this program. This could even be a great option to complete your general education courses and then transfer to the college of your choice and save money in the process. So, if you're looking for an affordable college option while simultaneously gaining valuable work experience and earning an income, Chick-fil-A East Peoria is the place for you. You don't have to go into debt to get a great education. To apply today, please go to https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria  and click on the careers tab. You can also call the restaurant at 309-694-1044 to find out more. And if you aren't located near Chick-fil-A East Peoria, make sure you check with your local Chick-fil-A restaurant to see if they also participate in the Elevate program with Point University. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Did you know that this podcast is 100% listener supported? We love producing free content that's available to everyone around the world with our monthly newsletters when you sign up for our email list and with our weekly episodes. We pray that this has been a benefit to you. That if any episode has ever impacted you, what we ask is that you will partner with us now and generously and prayerfully give financially before the end of the year. There's multiple ways to do this. Online at thesavvysauce.com, you can donate through Stripe,  PayPal, or Venmo with just a simple click. Or you can send snail mail to us at Savvy Sauce Charities, P.O. Box 101 Roanoke, Illinois, 61561. We hope you choose to support us today and during this season especially.   It sounds like you really leaned into your friendships. So, what would you say you've learned about community both before and after your experience of launching Drew into space?   Stacey Morgan: (34:26 - 38:07) Well, I tell you what, I realized that as an adult often a lot of us don't really know how to do friendship well. And our culture is so, it so values independence that we often convince ourselves that if we tell our friends or our community that we need help or just kind of show our true heart for how important it is to us, that somehow that's gonna be kind of like devalued or we're gonna feel weak. And I realized like, “Man, I wasted a lot of years trying to be tougher than I really am.” And I wish I could go back and change that because in this season, mainly because I had no choice. And so, God really used this opportunity to show me like, “Hey, I'm gonna kind of like force you to open up your heart, be vulnerable with this small group of really trusted friends and like just trust me to see what happens next.”   And I did and it was a game-changer. I mean, I have a lot of deep feelings but I put a little bit of a tough exterior and I forced myself to be super honest and super vulnerable with my friends and say things like, “I'm lonely or I don't even know what I need but I'm just feeling exhausted or angry or this is really frustrating to me or I need help with this and I don't even know where to begin.” And just let those friends step into my life in a really intimate way.   And you know, I think we've all had a friend at some point who has asked for help and we have been so happy to help them and we've never thought less of them for it. But somehow when it comes to our own time we're like, “Oh, I don't want to trouble anybody. Oh, they're gonna think I can't handle it.” Or like, “Well, this is like I made this bed so I better lie in it. You chose to have all these kids, you chose this career, you chose this whatever, like this is your problem.” But we would never say that about another friend. And so, I don't know why we are harder on ourselves than we are on our friends because it's not right. Most of our friends are happy to help us. They love us helping us, being with us, comforting us, supporting us. That's how they show how important you are to them and we need to let them do that.   I've also gotten better about verbalizing the feelings that I had always felt inside but I felt awkward verbalizing. Like, “Thank you for being my friend.” Or like, “Thank you for just spending this time with me,” or, “You are an important person in my life.” Words that we say to our kids, that we often say to our spouses, but sometimes for me at least felt weird saying to friends and I'm really trying to get better about that. That was a great nine months of practice. It doesn't come easy or natural I think to anybody but it's a game changer. Like why not tell your friends how much they mean to you?   So, community is essential. Like don't try to lone wolf this life. I've certainly had some more extreme experiences than probably the average person, but the principles are the same. Get plugged into community and have multiple circles of community. Certainly, your faith community but also you know if you work, if you go to the gym, if you go to school, like your kids' friends, like there's so many circles of community and don't be afraid to just jump right in and get connected. And you've got to do it before you are in crisis. You've got to kind of invest in these friendships so that you know them and can trust these friends so that when those seasons come that are hard you have this small group of people who you can rely on. It will be a complete game changer in your life when you have a small, could be one person, can be two people, trusted people who can journey with you.   Laura Dugger: (38:07 - 38:34) I could not agree more. I really think that friendship is one of the most precious gifts were given in this life. And going back to your marriage we had discussed that time of separation but then there was a whole other season of transition as well. So, what was it like to come back together after being apart for nearly 10 months?   Stacey Morgan: (38:34 - 42:55) Yeah, so it's funny there's always these Hollywood romanticized versions of what reunions must look like whether that's a military deployment reunion or you know when an astronaut comes home. And I think people assume it's some kind of like hot sexy romantic can't keep hands off of you but the reality is far different, right? Because it's... I mean maybe it is, maybe that's how it is for some people. I will just say for us, you know, when you've been living an independent life for however long, whether that was you know a six-month or an eight-month deployment or a nine-month deployment to outer space, you know I was living my own life fully independent for that long where I made all the choices. I didn't have anybody looking over my shoulder or you know there's a little bit of independent freedom there when you're the only one kind of making the big decisions.   And so, when that person comes back into your life, which you want them to come back, you're happy they're home, but there is this awkward transition period. It's definitely an opportunity for some tension because now there's another opinion back in the mix, right?   Like I had to kind of adjust my way of doing life for another person who had a valid opinion, another decision maker. The kids had to adjust to having another parent back in the house. You're kind of getting to know each other so there is a little bit of a sniffing out period where you're like, “Hey, nice to meet you.” Because we all change. You know you could be gone from someone for a month, you know, you're not the same person you were today as you were last year or six months ago or maybe even a month ago. So, anytime someone comes back in your life they're different, you're a little different. You're like my friendships had shifted over those ten months, like my work had shifted, everything in my life had moved on and he had not been there in the house with me to experience that so there was... it was a whole new set of experiences and a new person to get to know again.   Now he came home and what made it a little bit more dramatic was that Drew came home in the startup of the pandemic. He came home in April of 2020 which at the time I think we weren't sure, “Are we going up? Are we coming down?” We know now looking back we realize things were just ramping up; the world was, we were all still very confused about what's the best thing to do can we all the things you know. So, NASA pretty much brought him home and then he came home to our house after just a few days in kind of the quarantine facility there on Johnson Space Center. But then he came back to our house and then it's like he never left because all of the normal stuff that would happen when you come home from space like travel and meetings and all these kind of things were all canceled or postponed.   And so, instead of kind of like getting to know each other slowly it was like zero to sixty. I mean he was home and he didn't go anywhere, none of us could go anywhere. So, we joke that the irony that he was in space with five professional crew mates in a small space and then he came home to live in our small space with five amateur crew mates who are certainly not nearly as gracious or accommodating or helpful as the professional astronaut and cosmonaut crew mates he had. The irony is not lost on us. So, he came home I don't think we've ever spent that amount of time together you know 24/7 in the same house with all four of our kids, no school, nowhere to go because everything's closed. And so yeah we're getting to know each other in this kind of Petri dish of new experiences as the world is also kind of like upside down and everything's unusual.   So, in the end it was okay. I joke like we did a lot of “I was like let me go do this puzzle I just need some alone time” or “I'm going for a walk around the neighborhood please don't text me. I'll be back when I'll be back I just need a few minutes to myself.” I think everybody has had that moment in the during the last two years where you're just like, “I just need a few minutes alone please,” you know in my if you've been trapped in your house with somebody who you're not normally with 24/7.   Laura Dugger: (42:56 - 43:17) Well sure and with your experience, mental health is very important for the family of the astronaut and the astronaut themselves. Wasn't it your psychologist who is saying typically when you come back and enter this time of reentry and reuniting you do little bit by little bit because that tends to be wiser?   Stacey Morgan: (43:17 - 45:22) Yes, that's right. They call it titrating a return. That's a principle they have in the military as well which is they would normally come back from a deployment for at least the first couple weeks back from a long trip away they would go to work every day for several hours because it's you know psychologically difficult for two people who have been living very independent lives to come back together just with like zero transition. The military has learned this over the last 20 years you know that you could go from a combat zone to mowing your lawn in 24 hours. That's stressful especially if you add in you know marriage baggage, kids you know nagging kids or issues like that, financial struggles, that's a kind of what can be a breeding ground for some really difficult situation. So, it's best to let people get to know each other again a little bit at a time.   Like you said the normal return from space was kind of the same thing. It would be come home and then you'd have some physical therapy, you'd have these different meetings and it would be a little bit like going to work for several weeks while they're getting their body and everything back to normal. Then, you kind of could have this kind of extended time at home but it gave both people the ability to kind of like reintroduce themselves to each other in bits and pieces and just kind of ease into it. But we did not have that luxury so we kind of had to create it ourselves. And I am glad again that we had those past experiences to know where the potential minefields were. If you were not prepared you could be very disappointed if you went into it thinking, “Oh, they're gonna come home, it's gonna be like romantic. We're gonna be like together and loving it all the time and just connecting so deeply. It's gonna be amazing.” And then the first time that your spouse is like, “Why are you emptying the dishwasher like that?” It's important to know like, “Yeah, if there is going to be tension it is going to be awkward. That's okay that is part of the normal cycle and it's gonna be okay.” But I'm glad that we had that knowledge beforehand because it could be tough.   Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 46:07) Well and Stacey another reason that I really appreciate you being willing to let us enter your story with you. When we have different careers or we have someone in the military and a civilian who's not involved, there's so much room for assumptions and maybe not always assuming the best. There's opportunity for miscommunication so I'm just wondering about the person who's hearing this and what if they're thinking, “Well that sounds irresponsible or even selfish of Drew to choose this path if he's a husband and father.” So, how would you offer that kind of person another perspective that they might be missing?   Stacey Morgan: (46:07 - 48:20) I mean I would say is when it comes to astronauts for sure, you know, these are not like hot-rodding thrill-seeking people. In fact, I would say I think a lot of people make the assumption that people who do some of these higher like physically higher risky jobs must be like thrill-seeking you know just thrown caution to the wind about everything in their life. Actually, nothing could be farther from the truth. I think you would find that we certainly and I would you know I think a lot of people in the same career field are similar and that we are good risk calculators. And that like policemen, like firemen, like military personnel you know it's an act of service to be in this job. These are not just like you know space tourists or billionaires getting on a rocket for fun. These are professionals who have chosen a career field of service and whether that is as a policeman, a fireman, a service to the nation, service to humanity, service to their community and they all play a part in that.   I think most people recognize that that it is you know there's something to be said for the person who chooses a career that has a level of risk because they feel called to it and because thank God for people who will take on risk and are willing to potentially sacrifice themselves for someone else. I mean I think it's kind of a higher calling which is why in general in our culture we honor them and rightfully so. It is risky, it's very risky. They certainly don't do it for the money. I don't think anybody in any kind of government service would say that they're doing it for the money, that's for sure. You know they're doing it because they feel called to something bigger than themselves and to serve their fellow man in some way. That's certainly I know how we feel as a family that his choosing to transition as an Army physician into being still in the Army but serving in this capacity was just the next level up. The way he could serve our community, our country, our nation and all of humanity and he really is its service first. It's the opposite of selfish; it is selfless service really.   Laura Dugger: (48:20 - 48:55) Mm-hmm thank you for that. I just say amen to everything you just said. Really it's service from your entire family that requires a sacrifice from each of you like you said for the greater good. And I think something else that you pointed out so well in your book was that having this value more so of security or not living into this calling that you said this calling was put upon your lives that could actually be idolatry if you're starting to place a higher value on security or anything else other than God and so I think you model that well.   Stacey Morgan: (48:55 - 51:13) Thank you. Yeah I think a lot of people you know sometimes these idols creep up on us we don't realize that we have put something on a pedestal until it gets threatened to be taken away from us and all of a sudden our reaction is over the top because we're you know you realize, “Gosh, I'm finding my security in this thing I'm finding my identity in this thing whether this thing is a job, another person, a political party, a scientific breakthrough whatever it is.” Right? Like and I think a lot of people, I certainly felt it you know in that launch moment like, “Am I finding my identity in being married to this person or him having this job or this launch being successful? Because if I am in about 10 seconds my world may crumble because if that could all be taken away from me.” And in that yeah I think we all kind of have probably had a moment especially in the last two years where for a lot of people something that they have built their life on has been either taken away from them or has it has been threatened to be taken away because of the pandemic a job a person in their life you know a relationship your kids going off to school every day I mean whatever it is that you've built in your life and you have put on this pedestal and you kind of made without even realizing it have started to place more hope in those things remaining unchanged than you have in God. And all of a sudden when those things are threatened you have this over-the-top emotionally fearful response that's kind of an indicator I think to all of us like when we have that is like, “Whoo my fear and my response should tell me that I seem to be very very afraid that this is going to be taken away from me because I am putting too much hope in it. Instead, I should be taking that and putting it back where it belongs. I should reprioritize where I am finding my hope and the only unchanging thing that we can build our foundation on is God. Everything else, every person, everything, every job, every whatever it is can and could possibly be taken away from you and on your deathbed will be.” So, you know you can't help but have a little bit of self-reflection there.   Laura Dugger: (51:13 - 51:23) Well and then for all of us how do you recommend that we all can rediscover our fun side when we've been trapped in survival mode for too long?   Stacey Morgan: (51:23 - 56:05) This is a great question because I think all of us have felt this definitely in the pandemic. You know this part in your life where everything in the world feels very chaotic and so you try to regain some control in your own life by maybe regimenting your kids a little more, cleaning your house a little more, you know, controlling things at work or whatever your environment is. And without really realizing it you become this just like survival mode like your day just becomes about making things easier for yourself, streamlining things, making things just go go go. And you wake up one day and you were like, “I'm exhausted. Like why am I so tired? Why am I why do I have like no joy? Why do I just feel unhappy?” And you realize that you have not done anything other than just be like surviving and cleaning and doing work or whatever it is like you have just been doing the basics with no fun whatsoever.   So I have been there I hit that a bunch of times in the pandemic, but I certainly hit it when Drew was in space because it's really hard being a single parent and managing all of the emotional burdens and the logistics of it. And I realized that I was cleaning a lot I was kind of getting a little bit more trigger angry with kids or people who you know were making me upset because when you're in survival mode it's all about just like “Get out of my way let me do what I want to do,” it's about getting things done quickly and other people become an annoyance instead of a joy in your life.   So it's all about going back to something that that fills you up and it can be something really frivolous it can be something like it's very it's 100% unique to you and so I can't tell you what that thing is but I would say the first step in kind of getting yourself out of survival mode and kind of getting back to your your whole self is asking yourself the question like, “What do I enjoy?” Not for its educational value, not for its good cardio exercise or and not what your kids enjoy, not what is Instagram worthy, or anything like in your soul what fills you up? Is it reading? Is it watching movies? Is it riding bikes? Is it roller skating? Is it you know eating Mexican food? Like what is it that you enjoy doing that when you do it you just feel like more of yourself?   And then just go do it tomorrow. Like it's gonna take prioritizing time probably some money but that is as much of a part of who you are how God created you. He didn't make you this like worker bot or like just a mom or just a wife or just a daughter or a sister like He made you a whole person and a huge part of who you are are these things that you enjoy. And you cannot continue to pour into other people or work or your community if you are never getting filled up yourself. You will just dry out, you will be burnt out, you'll be unhappy and you'll actually be worse in all these other areas where you were trying to work hard because you're just gonna be like a shell of yourself.   So, for me it was prioritizing time with friends. It was... I got this crazy flyer on my front door for roller skating lessons and I had this fantasy of being a really good roller skater that stemmed from like when I was eight and so I signed my girls and I up for roller skating lessons which was hilarious and very humbling but it was just silly. It took time, we had to prioritize the time on every Saturday it took money, but it was just fun. It had no educational value my kids will look back on it and be like, “What was that all about? I don't even know.” But it was great because even in the midst of a stressful season like that was a very stressful season, undeniable, but as part of that narrative it will not only be like, “Yeah it was really tough when my dad was away and you know my mom had to like single-parent us but that was also the season where my mom took us to roller skating lessons. Isn't that weird? That was so weird.” And we'll laugh about it.   And so, it's just about finding something that you want to do and then just unapologetically spend the money, spend the time, and invite a friend to do it with you again. Doing something with a friend is always more fun than doing something alone. Don't feel like you have to justify it or explain it to everyone you don't need to take pictures to post online you don't need to tell it just just go do it and have a good time. It's amazing how when you do that suddenly like those dust bunnies or that email that had a weird tone that you got don't annoy you as much as they used to because your kind of like finding your whole self again.   Laura Dugger: (56:05 - 56:27) That's helpful to remember to live life to the fullest and be ready for the next adventure that life's gonna throw at us. Yeah. And just as a bonus can we just ask what are some of the most common questions that you and Drew answer about space?   Stacey Morgan: (56:27 - 57:25) That's a good question. A lot of like personal hygiene questions about teeth brushing toilets how do you know take showers or whatever and of course the answer is they don't take showers. But and then of course a lot of people want to know, “Hey I've always been interested in becoming an astronaut how does somebody do that?”   And there are so many resources online people you know I say, “Look go online read all about it. There's amazing videos NASA puts out an incredible amount of resources that you can read up on but at the end of the day do what you are most passionate about because the likelihood that you, or your nephew, or your cousin, or your co-worker, your son, or, whoever it is that you know is convinced they want to be an astronaut the likelihood of them being an astronaut is very low. So you should do what just fills you up do a career and a life that you are passionate about and if God calls you to that path those doors will open but if He doesn't you'll still be living a life fully within God's purpose for you.”   Laura Dugger: (57:25 - 57:39) And Stacey you're such an incredible communicator both in this interview time together but also really enjoyed your book. And so, if people want to follow you to hear what you're up to next, where would you direct them online?   Stacey Morgan: (57:39 - 58:41) Sure well they can go to my website StaceyMorgan2000. That's like Stacey Morgan two zero zero zero dot com. That has my blog that has links to a different podcast like this that I've been on and they can check that out. They can find me on Instagram same handle StaceyMorgan2000.   And you know if people want to reach out, I love when people have been sending me messages lately after they've read the book it's been so awesome. You know I tell people like I certainly didn't write this book for the money I'm actually donating all my book proceeds to charities that support military families. So, I've been joking like, “Hey read the book if you don't like it the worst that happened is you donated to a military charity. If you do like it buy ten copies and give one to all your friends. But if you do like it I love it when people send me messages and just tell me kind of like what resonated and how it spoke to them.” That's just been one of the I would say the coolest aspect of completing this project was kind of putting it out there and then getting to see how God uses it in people's lives.   Laura Dugger: (58:41 - 59:02) There were so many things that resonated but off the top of my head if anybody has a copy of the book they'll have to turn to the part about baloney on sale friends. And Stacey you may know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge and so as my final question for you today what is your savvy sauce?   Stacey Morgan: (59:02 - 1:01:08) Well I'll piggyback off your baloney is on sale friends' reference and that would be: pick up the phone and text your friend. We didn't need a study to show us this because I think most of us have just known this in our soul but there is an endemic of loneliness in the world right now as you know we've got all these ways to connect and yet people feel more disconnected. They feel more lonely especially women and what I learned through my own kind of relationship struggles over the years is that everyone's waiting for someone else to go first. That you in that moment you feel like you're the only person who's feeling lonely and alone and that everybody else is in these friend circles and you're just somehow on the outside. But the reality is that pretty much everybody feels the same way you do and everybody's sitting at home wishing someone would just text them and invite them to coffee.   So that's my practical tip is don't wait, go first be the bold friend or even acquaintance like it doesn't have to be someone that you are super besties with. But those baloney is on sale friends like I said you have to read the book and understand that that is like a special category of friendship that's the kind of friendship that our soul longs for but those things don't appear or like pop out of the ground. That kind of friend doesn't just show up it's developed over time it's invested in and cared for and loved and it starts with literally a text to go get coffee. That's how every great friendship story begins. So, if that's you, if you feel like yeah I don't have this close friend who I can do something with I'm lonely. Okay take that first step be the one who picks up the phone send that text message to the woman from church, or the woman from the gym, or that friend you haven't talked to in a while and just invite them over for coffee. Nothing fancy nothing crazy no agenda just come over for a couple hours for coffee. Every single person I know who does this no one ever regrets inviting a friend over for coffee. That's the first step that we can all take into just feeling more connected and having those kind of friends that we want.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:08 - 1:01:31) Love it. Well Stacy your book definitely changed my perspective on risk and I was so hooked on all the stories that you shared so I believe that your book is truly a gift to anyone who chooses to read it and your faith is very inspiring so thank you for sharing your journey with us and thank you for being my guest.   Stacey Morgan: (1:01:31 – 1:01:33) Well, thank you it's been great.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:33 – 1:05:16) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it