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281. Excel in Social Skills and Etiquette and Teach Your Children To Do The Same with Monica Irvine   Proverbs 20:11 NIV “Even small children are known by their actions, so is their conduct really pure and upright?”   Ephesians 4:32a AMP “Be kind and helpful to one another,”   *Transcription Below*   Monica Irvine, President and creator of The Etiquette Factory, LLC, is a master motivator and dedicated instructor who loves to help children and adults see the benefits and rewards of having proper etiquette, mastering professionalism and excelling in social skills. As a Certified Etiquette Instructor and working in the hospitality industry for 24 years, Mrs. Irvine specializes in etiquette and professional instruction to help ensure the success of each individual both personally and professionally.   Mrs. Irvine is the published author of three books on Etiquette and one book on Scheduling including: Etiquette for Beginners, Etiquette Intermediate, Etiquette Masters and A Schedule Makes for a Happy Family, in addition to authoring several monthly columns in national publications such as Everything Knoxville, The Homeschool Handbook and the Homeschool Magazine.   Mrs. Irvine is a national speaker, speaking to thousands of parents, educators and children every year.   Residing in Knoxville, TN with her husband, Mrs. Irvine spends her free time playing tennis, running and enjoying her family of three boys and a granddaughter.   You may contact Mrs. Irvine at monica@TheEtiquetteFactory.com  or via her website at www.TheEtiquetteFactory.com. Rise Up Parenting FUNdamentals 4 Kids Life Skills Essentials   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are some red flags we can identify in our lives if we are too busy and what wisdom do you recommend instead of our overstuffed schedules? As parents, why must we proactively teach these qualities to our children, rather than just instruct them in a moment of correction? Will you share stories of ways the Holy Spirit has nudged you to use etiquette and it resulted in something miraculous?    Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: Unexpected Grief and What Helped Me Through It Can Help You Too with Singer and Blogger, Brittany Price Brooker   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:10)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 2:19) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.   My guest for today is the charming Monica Irvine. She is president and creator of The Etiquette Factory. She's a master motivator and dedicated instructor who just loves helping children and adults to see the benefits and rewards of having proper etiquette. She also loves to help people master professionalism and excel in social skills.   So, she's going to give us insight into all of these ideas and share stories today for ways that we can actually seek the Lord and love others well and value people through the proper use of etiquette.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Monica.   Monica Irvine: (2:19 - 2:20) Thank you. Thanks for having me, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (2:20 - 5:41) Well, I'm so excited to get a chat with you today, but let's just begin here. I'm so fascinated because you were born and raised in the South. Is that right?   Monica Irvine: Well, yes, Tennessee. Absolutely consider myself Southern.   Laura Dugger: I love it. And I grew up in the Midwest and got to live in the South for a few years. And I was very struck by the difference in manners. And I'm just curious if manners and etiquette were intentionally taught to you, both in your family and then just kind of in your Southern culture around you.   Monica Irvine: (2:20 - 5:32) Well, yes. So, when I think about being raised in the South, I think and maybe my mom and my grandmas were a little different. But what I would describe my upbringing is very particular, meaning everything was made special.   And my parents and my grandparents took a lot of pride in making things beautiful and lovely. And so, of course, my mom cooked every night. But like at my home growing up and we did not have a lot of money, just know that my parents struggled.   But my mother would never put a ketchup bottle on the table or a mayonnaise jar. Everything had to be put in little bowls with little spoons. And it's funny because my friends that I have today, I get given little spoons for birthdays and occasions because my friends all know how much I love little dainty things.   But, you know, and some people, you know, might think that's a little ridiculous. But I'll tell you something. I don't know that we need to eat that way every night, seven nights a week.   But it made dinner time feel special. And even the way my mother and my grandmothers kept their house, everything had its place. It was not messy.   We had clean homes. And I think it also just helped me be proud of my home. I mean, once again, we did not have a lot of money, but my friends thought my home was so nice.   Well, the reason it was so nice is because my mother kept such care of it. And so, I was raised with a lot of cousins and live close to both of my grandparents. And so even the outside of their homes, both sets of grandparents, everything was beautiful.   And so there was a lot of pride in who we are, how we presented ourselves. But you're going to laugh at this. So, my mom, my dad tells me this story that right after my mom and dad got married, my dad came home from work one day and my mom was ironing.   You know, she'd spend a whole day ironing every week or half a day. And my mom was ironing my dad's underwear. And my mom's name is Janice.   And he was like, “Janice, honey, what are you doing?” And “I know just ironing, Bob.” And he's like, “Babe, you don't need to iron my underwear.”   But, you know, the thing is, that to my mother and my grandmothers being a good wife and being a good mother meant making sure everyone in the family looked nice, that their clothes were clean, that the home was clean, that there was good food on the table. And that was part of their identity, of this is what it means to be a good wife and mother. And I love that about my upbringing.   Laura Dugger: (5:33 - 5:41) And do you have any reasons why you think that's changed a little bit over the years?   Monica Irvine: (5:42 - 8:34) Yeah, I think we've gotten lazy. Well, no, I just I think there you know, there's balance, right? There's when I look back, I can't really remember my mom playing with me.   But now, listen, I don't feel like I missed out, but I do recognize it. But I guess even as a little girl, sure, I would have loved my mom to play with me. But that's just not in my mind what moms did.   Moms cleaned house and made everything and cooked your meal. And so, I do. I'm grateful that as a society, we have adjusted somewhat.   Sometimes I believe too much but have adjusted in going. What's the most important things? And because I'm a big believer in playing with our children and our grandchildren and creating memories.   But now my family, my parents and we worked a lot together. Like if we were if the yard needed raking, it wasn't kids go rake the yard. Mom, dad, kids were in the yard raking.   If a car needed to be washed, it wasn't go wash the car. We were all out there washing the car. So, I think that's why I don't feel like I missed out because my family did so many things together.   Whereas today we're so separated. No parents give their children and babies phones and iPads so they'll just be quiet so they can get their important work done. Like grocery shopping or cooking.   And I just think that instead of teaching our children how to self-soothe and self-entertain and how to creatively play even by yourself, sometimes we just always believe there has to be a babysitter to distract our children from wanting mom and dad. It's just I you know, this could be a whole other talk, Laura, but I just you know, I see it. It breaks my heart sometimes on the lack of how often families work together, play together and do things together.   But now, you know, dad's watching his game in this room. Mom is in another room, maybe on her computer doing social media. The kids are in their rooms on their games.   And I see a lack of family unity. So once again, even though maybe my mom and dad didn't play with us and I'm glad we've shifted with that thought process. Still, we were a united family.   Laura Dugger: (8:35 - 8:56) I love that. And the Lord has clearly given you a passion for that instilling that in others. And He invited you into a journey that eventually led to The Etiquette Factory, which is the work that you get to do today.   So, can you share the impetus for that and what that journey looked like for you?   Monica Irvine: (8:56 - 13:54) I will. I love my company. I feel like it's just yet another beautiful adventure the Lord has allowed me to be on in my life.   And so, I feel like I'm just outside looking in at this beautiful little business that has allowed me to minister to children and adults in need. So, years ago, I was homeschooling our kids. I was homeschooling our youngest son at the time, and we were studying the life of President George Washington.   And I just kind of stumbled upon this list. It was called George Washington's Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior. It is a beautiful list of 110 chivalry skills.   And apparently, President Washington was encouraged to focus on some chivalry as was part of a formal education in those days. He found a French book that had these list of chivalry kind of considerations, and he copied them. He hand copied them, of course.   And we have that list of 110 chivalry skills in President Washington's handwriting. But as I started reading over this list, the Lord penetrated my heart. I just I was like, these are so beautiful.   I mean, some of them were kind of funny. Some of them were. It's not polite to remove lice from your companion in public, which I think is good to know.   But most of the beautiful chivalry skills were very applicable to today. And I was like I want my son to memorize these skills. So, we started memorizing one Washington skill a week.   And because they were written in that old English, you know, sometimes we were like, what does this mean? And it just I just decided for my son's sake, who was nine at the time, I wanted to just kind of make my own version. But what was so a light bulb moment for me is as we started making manners part of our daily discussion in school, I noticed a change in my child's behavior and my son would be like, “Mom, let's do another one. What's the next one? Let's do one more.”   And I found that so fascinating because, as you know, most of us parents, when we teach manners, we're teaching it in the moment, usually correcting bad behavior. It's not that that's our goal. It's just that that's when we think about it.   Our child says, or does something that's not the most polite, and all of a sudden we're going, “Oh, honey, no, honey, you can't say that. That's not polite.” And then we make the correction and then we teach the skill.   And what I learned and realized is that so often that's when I was teaching my children manners in the moment of correcting. And what I've learned about that is when we're being corrected, whether you're three years old or 30 years old, we harden our heart typically because it's self-preservation. You know, we stiffen up when someone's like, “Monica, you really shouldn't have.” I'm like, whoa.   And it's just because of our own pride. We don't like being called out and neither do our children, even when we're doing it gently and politely. It's still a correction.   And so, what I found is when our heart is hardened, as the scripture says, it's not the best time to absorb information. It's the opposite of being humble. To be humble means to be teachable.   To be hardened means to not be teachable. So, when we have a hardened heart, it's hard for us to absorb things of the spirit, which all truth comes from God. So, anything that is lovely of good rapport is of God.   So, when we're teaching our children to be kind and to have kind considerations for others, those are God's truths and God's truths cannot seep into the soul of our heart unless our heart is soft. And so that is what happened is I was like, today we're going to learn how to use our napkin properly. Or today we're going to learn how to apologize.   But how do you make it sound sincere and how do you be sincere when you don't really feel it? And so, as we started just working on one skill at a time, the conversations were typically beautiful. Parts were changed and behavior ended up changing.   And so really, that's what then later became The Etiquette Factory.   Laura Dugger: (13:55 - 14:20) I love that because I think it gives our children confidence because then they're equipped and prepared and understand what's expected of them in different situations or what can bless others in the way they act. But then I'm curious, you gave a few examples of those. Can you think of any of George Washington's chivalry lines that would still apply today?   Monica Irvine: (14:21 - 19:07) Yes, well, so I'm not quoting, I'm summarizing. So, for instance, one is it is not polite to hum or sing in the presence of others that would cause distraction. And so basically it's not polite to draw attention to ourselves but also draw attention or interrupt other people's day life when we haven't been invited to do so.   So let me give you this definition we use for etiquette. So, at The Etiquette Factory, etiquette is helping those around us to feel valued and to feel comfortable. Well, if I'm sitting there humming along, but the person beside me really doesn't want to hear my humming, then I might be causing that person to feel uncomfortable.   Same thing, you know, whenever I start off teaching a class, because usually when everyone thinks of manners, they think of table manners. Of course, there's so much more. But I use this example.   I say, well, if I were to come to your home and sit down and I started eating like a pig in the presence of your family, I mean, I'm chewing with my mouth open. I'm making a smacking my lips. I'm taking too big of bites and food is falling in my lap or I'm making a mess on the table.   Or I eat so fast that I am finished eating, getting up to leave. And you're just on your third bite of food. Well, any of those behaviors, I would be sending a message.   And that message is, look, I'm here for one person and that person is myself. I came to fill up my belly because I'm hungry. And beyond that, I really don't care.   I don't care if I'm making you uncomfortable. I don't care if I'm grossing you out. I don't care if you actually wanted to talk to me because I just came here to eat and I'm out of here.   You see, we don't realize it, but a lack of chivalry is called selfishness. A lack of chivalry is inward focused. When we focus outwardly on what message am I sending to those around me?   Am I sending a message of love and care and value? That is etiquette. I get emailed all the time and message like, “OK, Monica, I've got this shower I'm putting on.   And my daughter is not going to invite her work friends to the wedding. But is it OK if we invite all of them to a wedding shower?” And they'll go, so what's the etiquette rule?   Well, there is no etiquette rule about that, except etiquette is about helping those around us to feel valued. And so that's how I answer every question. I'm like, well, let me ask you if you were invited to a wedding shower, where you're asking her friends to shower your daughter with gifts and love to celebrate her wedding.   But yet those friends were not valued enough to invite to the wedding. How do you think it would make them feel? And so that's what the answer is with etiquette.   Now, there's exceptions. In fact, that case, that's a real email I got. And she ended up having the shower because her daughter went and told her co-worker who offered to give her a wedding shower.   “You know what? I thought that is so thoughtful. I'm so grateful that you were willing to do that. But we're having a very small, intimate wedding, you know, for financial reasons and intimacy reasons. And so, I just don't feel comfortable inviting people to bring gifts for me and knowing that we're just we're not going to be able to invite everyone to the wedding.”   And that co-worker said, “We don't care. We knew you were having a small wedding. We want to celebrate you.”   And so, you know, you can there be exceptions, but a lady and a gentleman always try to be very aware of those unspoken messages. And that guides our conversation, our answers, our actions. And that's what we teach children and adults to do at The Etiquette Factory.   Laura Dugger: (19:07 - 21:17) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Burchie family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.   If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle.   This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple, welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.   I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.   Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook  by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.   I loved, this was a few months back, but we came to a homeschool convention, and I loved your talk on purposeful parenting. One thing that you said, just I think backing it up and looking at our family in general, you said, “If we're too busy to do the most important things, we're too busy. Stop allowing the adversary to tempt us to remain too busy.”   So, Monica, what wisdom can you share for maybe red flags that can help us identify when we're too busy to focus on the most important things, and what do you recommend instead of overstuffing our schedules and our lives?   Monica Irvine: (21:18 - 26:23) You know, that's a great question. Those are good questions that every family should ask themselves. You know, I think that if we are to strive to focus on the most important things, step number one is, has mom and dad identified the most important things?   Because if you don't know what your goal is, then you're not going to as easily recognize when something is interfering with your goal. So, for instance, maybe mom and dad sits down and says, “Well, our number one goal is to make sure that our children know Jesus Christ. And so, what do we need to do to make sure that we're doing our best to help our children know who He is?”   Well, and so a family might decide, well, we want to have daily scripture study and daily family and individual prayer. We want to make it a priority to be at church so that we can worship on the Sabbath, but also so that we can meet together with other like-minded Christians and minister to one another as we're taught by the Savior. That's important for us to do.   And perhaps we want to learn to do as the Savior does. And that's why we're going to learn of His attributes and try to follow in His footsteps and be a family of service. So, let's just say those are our four of the most important things.   If that's our goal, then hopefully mom and dad could recognize when we're starting to stumble off the path that leads to our goal. For instance, I can't tell you how many parents have come up to me after they hear me speak on this topic and say, “Monica, I wish I had heard you say this 10 years ago. But we got sucked up into the what the world has to offer, and we started allowing our children to play competitive sports on Sunday. And so, we stopped going to church years ago because there was always a championship game on Sunday morning and always another tournament. And we wanted our children to have, you know, college opportunities.”   And there's nothing wrong with college opportunities unless that college opportunity interferes with our most important goal. And so that's why first mom and dad have to decide what is the most important, because then it's easier to recognize when we are being tempted by the adversary to focus on what the world is trying to offer us.   And the world offers us shiny things that tempt our human nature to want to be popular and loved by all and wealthy. And so, we just have to always go back to our goals. You know, I've got families that say, “I wish we had eaten dinner together more often. But we allowed our children to be so scheduled that there was not one night or there was only one night a week that we actually sat down at the table together.”   You know, parents. You will regret that. And you can't take back these precious, very short years that you have your children under your roof in your home.   And you will be someone like me one day where all of my kids are graduating and grandchildren and all you live for is your children to come visit and your children to come have dinner. And so, when you allow the world to creep in and be more important than spending time with your family, time with the Lord, time on good and lovely things, you will regret it. And I just think that probably every year come January, mom and dad should sit down and go, let's look at last year.   What were we missing from our family schedule? What do we need to reevaluate whether that is the most important thing? And so that's something I think all of us have to do on a regular basis.   Laura Dugger: (26:24 - 27:20) I think you're hitting on something profound there, that reflection with the Lord or with our spouse. I think we have no excuse because if there is no spouse in the picture, we always have the Lord. But to be intentional, to take that time, maybe on a Sabbath and go through a few questions and reflect back.   I think that could save us from a lot of regret. So, I really appreciate that response. And going back to etiquette, then you've taught us that it is a learned behavior.   This isn't something that our children will just naturally pick up. It's best to do in times where their hearts are soft, so proactive if possible. But I'd love to know in your own life, when were times that the Holy Spirit nudged you to use etiquette and it resulted in something miraculous?   Monica Irvine: (27:21 - 32:56) Oh, goodness. Okay, well, to me, I think miraculous is seeing the Lord's divine hand in our life. I see the miracle of the Lord every day in my life.   But probably most often is when I kneel down at the end of a day, I repent daily because I need to daily. And it's always a little nervous because I pray and I ask the Lord, as sometimes I know what I need to repent of. I know that I recognized I stumbled that day on something, but sometimes I just I pray and I say, “Lord, you know, just help.”   If something needs to be brought to my mind that I need to repent of and that I need to do better, would you bring it to my mind at this time? And it wasn't that long ago that the Lord brought to my mind something that I had gotten in the habit of doing that I didn't feel like it was wrong, but it was wrong. And so, etiquette, one of the etiquette skills I teach everyone is that it's not polite for us to gossip.   A lady and a gentleman always draw attention to the lovely and wonderful things that other people do. Now, if there's a safety issue, that's different, but I'm just talking about we don't share negative things about other people. And so, it's something I teach every year, all year long.   But I feel like I've done so much better than I did twenty-five years ago when the Lord really chastised me one time for gossiping. But in the last couple of months, I had gotten in the habit of sharing with my husband. So sometimes, you know, when you share with your spouse that you kind of feel like that's a safe place that the same rules don't apply because you and your spouse kind of talk about everything.   And so, I was in the habit of sharing with my spouse something that I was worried about that another person in our family did. But I was constantly going, “Oh, I don't like that. They do this and I don't like that. They do this and I'm worried about it.” And I actually was worried about it. But I just was constantly kind of highlighting these things that I didn't like that someone in our family did.   Well, one night I was praying and asked the Lord to bring to my mind and the Lord brought that to my mind. And it was kind of like he said, “Monica, don't you remember that? If you're worried about someone. Instead of sharing those negative things, even with Charles, my husband, what would be more effective is if you prayed and asked me to bless that person, to help that person, you know, in the ways that they need help and ask me to help, you know, of ways that you could be a better example to that person. But you don't need to constantly draw attention because it's starting to make you be negative towards this person.”   And I just like right when the Lord said that to me, I was embarrassed. I was like, “Monica, that. Yeah. Like, how do you not know that? That you should know better than that.”   Well, so immediately I repented and I apologized to the Lord and I and I started doing what he asked me to do. And within just a couple of days, like I started just noticing all of the wonderful, lovely things that this person is and does. And so, just to me, that is miraculous and it happens all the time.   And if I'm humble enough to repent and to listen to the Lord, because the Lord wants to help us and he wants us to strive to be like him. But we've got to ask where we need to be corrected. And so, I teach etiquette, I teach we don't gossip.   And then lo and behold, I had kind of gotten myself in another trap again. You know, and I just I think it's a miracle what happens when we listen to the Lord. He immediately turns our mind to good, lovely, beautiful things and allows us to be a vessel of light instead of vessel of darkness.   And we can be that vessel of darkness just right inside our own marriage, even though we think that's kind of a safe place to maybe be a little looser with our tongue. So, there's one example.   Laura Dugger: (32:57 - 33:26) I love that. And I remember you also explaining whenever you get a thought in your head that you don't want to do, it's likely 100 percent from God. So, can you share a couple specific stories of times that that was the Holy Spirit telling you something that you didn't maybe want to do, but you obeyed?   I'm remembering something about a grocery store and another time separately about a phone call. Yeah.   Monica Irvine: (33:26 - 40:29) OK, well, I'll tell about the phone call just because it's less sad. So, yeah, one time there was this lady and she was just kind of investigating our church and starting to come to our church and kind of fill it out. So, I had just met her and I found out that her what led her to come looking for God is her husband was an addict and she was just at her wits end and their marriage and family was falling apart.   And so, she came looking for the for help for the Lord. And so, I learned a little bit about her story. I ended up taking her to one of those celebrate recovery places at another church because I knew they had a wonderful program.   And so, I had interacted with her a couple of times. I probably had only known her about a month when one night I was running late to take my kids to youth on Wednesday night and I was cooking some spaghetti and I was just, you know, cooking that spaghetti at the stove. And all of a sudden I had a thought come into my mind, “Call her.”   And, you know, I was like, oh, yeah, I do need to call her. I need to call and check on her. I will, you know, after church tonight.   And so, I, you know, kept cooking that spaghetti. And the second time the Spirit, because that's who it was talking to me, because that's who tells us to do good things. Not us, but God.   The Spirit said, “Monica, call her.” But I was running late and I was trying to get my kids fed and I was like, I will call her as soon as I get the kids fed, you know, drop them off at church and then I'll call her, you know, and so I really meant to call her. But I.   Finally, a third time, and it seems to always take me three times before I realize, OK, he means now. And so, a third time it was like “Monica call.” And so, it was so strong.   And I, I know it's the Lord, but I, I just turned the stove off. I went into my bedroom, got my phone out, dialed her number. And as it was ringing, she picked up the phone and all I heard was just some quiet sobbing.   And she couldn't speak. And I, you know, I said her name. I said, “Hey, so and so it's Monica. I just. I see that you're upset. I just wanted to call and check on you. In fact, the Lord insisted that I call and check on you.”   And then her, you know, her crying just continued. It wasn't until, you know, she had calmed down and she just said, you know, “Monica, I had been praying and just asking the Lord to just show me that, you know, show me that you care that this is happening to me.” Something like that.   And, you know, I, I, in that moment, my stomach kind of did that little knot because I knew how close I had come to just not calling. And sure, I could have called her an hour later. It would have been at least an hour later and maybe, you know, it would have mattered.   But the Lord knew that it mattered right in that moment. She needed an answer. She needed to know that the Lord was listening.   And I've learned that in my life, that whenever we get a thought that comes into our mind and that thought is to do something good, like calling someone, you all is a good thing. Visiting someone, writing a letter to someone. Those are good things.   And all good comes from the Lord. And sometimes I wonder, does the Lord trust me? Does he know I'll respond when the stakes are high?   You know, sometimes I think as we continue to learn how to hear the spirit, we have to practice. Oh, that was the spirit. And probably if you're like me, I've learned a lot about the spirit by not listening.   And then later going, “Oh, yeah, Lord, I did miss that. You tried. You tried to warn me, or you tried to get me to do that. And I dismissed it.”   But so, you all I just think it takes practice and I'm still practicing. But I do believe that especially when it's something that we don't really want to do or we think we don't have time. And I just realize I felt the Lord going, “Monica, do you not think I know you're cooking spaghetti? Do you not think I know you're running late? But right now, there's something more important I need you to do than to get your kids to church on time.”   And so, I think at some point we have to decide, do we trust Him or don't we? And if we trust Him, we have to trust Him completely. And that means when we receive a prompting that we will act quickly because the Lord knows what we're doing.   And He knows that we don't have the best relationship with that person. Yet you're feeling like you should call. He already knows that.   And it doesn't mean that everything's always going to turn out the way we think it will. Sometimes I think the Lord just wants us to know ourselves that we'll do what He asked us to do, regardless of how it will turn out. And sometimes I feel like the Lord has told me to do something and I did it and it didn't go well.   And I'm like, “Lord, like, why? Why?” And I know all of us, you all sit there and go, wait, was that my thought or was it God's thought?   And you know what I have learned is that just stop worrying about it. Just act in faith. And the Lord always backs up His people.   The Lord doesn't, as you and I are praying and striving to understand the Lord's will. And let's say we get an idea and so we act on it because we feel like it was a prompting and then it does not go well. I believe the Lord loves so much that you were trying to listen and be obedient and the blessings will come.   Sometimes we just don't know the timing or how, but we've just got to trust.   Laura Dugger: (40:29 - 43:59) I love that. And we never know what's happening on the other side of our obedience. And I'll link back to Brittany Price Brooker's episode because she was one who had lost her husband and was crying out to the Lord.   I think she was bathing her young children, and they didn't have food in the house and maybe they were sick. And the only thing that sounded good to their child was apples, but it was late at night. She couldn't go get them herself.   And she was just praying like, “Lord, do You see me? Do You know my needs? I need You to meet my needs.”   And right then the doorbell rings and somebody showed up and she said, “The Lord told me to buy you these apples and bring them to you.” And I think that highlights something else. You articulated it well when you say whenever you get that thought in your head that you something that you don't want to do, it's likely 100% from God.   I would say a lot of times too, it's also awkward or inconvenient. We don't know why. And then I think back to the Bible, Abraham was put in a very awkward situation with his son and Noah, that was very awkward to be building the boat when there wasn't rain.   But look at the blessing that comes on the other side of obedience. So, appreciate those stories are really helpful.   By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them or watch them now that we're offering video rather than just audio. So, we heard all of that and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes.   Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.   So, at that same conference, when I heard you speak, you shared something that really stuck with me. This one was about our daughters. So, I want to talk about daughters first and then we'll move to sons.   But you mentioned there was this one study where over 3,000 men were surveyed. And they were asked, what's the number one quality that you desire in your wife? Either current wife or someday in the future when you're married.   And do you remember the response? Yeah, it was kindness. Kindness.   That she is kind. And so, I wondered, was there another side for the boys then too? What do you think women would say for their future or their current spouse?   What attribute do you think they would identify?   Monica Irvine: (44:00 - 47:35) It didn't have that for the other side, but a word that we don't use as much anymore. And I try to use it a lot is, I think most women, even if it wouldn't come to their mind immediately, once they heard it, they'd be like, oh, wait, no, yeah, that. And that is honorable.   They would want their husbands to be honorable. And to be honorable means that we do honorable things. And honorable things always 100 percent of the time require some level of sacrifice.   That's what makes them honorable when we sacrifice and give up our time, ourself in order to better someone else to help our country, our family, others. And so, I think today what we all want is for our spouses, husbands and wives to be kind and to live honorable lives. Those lives, it doesn't mean a perfect life, but to be honorable means we strive to have integrity.   We strive to be godly. We strive to do what we say we're going to do. We strive to live up to our divine nature as God called mothers and fathers and husbands.   And so, I would think to me that is the most important, because if you live an honorable life, then you honor God. You honor your marriage covenant. You honor your children by treating them and speaking to them with honor.   You honor your job. You make sure that you have integrity at work and that you're dependable. And the same goes for us women.   You know, but I think I think we all struggle with selfishness. I mean, that is ultimately what we struggle with every day is what do I want? What do I need?   What's important to me versus trying to live a selfless life for our spouse, for our family? Anyway, it would be interesting to do that survey, but I think what's so kind of funny about the kindness is that whenever I read that survey results that I had read years ago, when I say that to a crowd of women. And men, but when I say that to the crowd, you can always see I just see this rippling of women making this kind of gesture.   Or because they know that they could be more kind, because usually we can be kind to everyone in the world. But in the walls of our home, we struggle more with just kindness.   Laura Dugger: (47:37 - 48:00) And so if we go further upstream than before we're married, if that's what God has for us, what are practical ways that we can teach and instill kindness in our children and honorable character? Or any other practical tips for conduct?   Monica Irvine: (48:00 - 53:03) Yeah, well, I love when I do a workshop at a convention on a family of service, because honestly, when we have our children in our home, it's practice ground. We have once again a few years to help them learn to love the Lord and to love others. You know, the two great commandments, love me and love others.   Well, to me, the best way to teach our children to love God and love others is to get our children out and serving others. Because, as you know, typically, like, for instance, when someone calls us and says, “Oh, hey, Monica, hey, would you mind, you know, the Smith family, they just had their new baby. Do you think you could cook dinner for them one night next week?”   If you're like me, I'm going to say yes. And then I'm going to hang up. And then I'm going to have that anxiety because already my week is so full and I was already stressed out about how I was going to get all the things done I needed to get done.   And now I've just added another thing. And I'm not saying there are not times that we don't need to say no, because we absolutely have to say no sometimes. But my point is, I cook the dinner and I go drop it off.   And as I'm pulling, as we are pulling away from that home, how do we feel? Do we feel better or do we feel worse? Do we feel happy or do we feel sad?   Honestly, almost 100 percent of the time, y'all, we're going to feel happier. We're going to feel grateful. We're going to be grateful that we had the opportunity to cook that dinner for that sweet family.   We're going to be reminded of how sweet the Lord is to give us opportunities to be His hands and His feet and His mouth here on the earth. And so, we want our children to learn to love. To love others, but it takes practice.   It's not until you serve again and again and again that you start to realize that the secret to being happy, the secret to having peace in your life and love abounding in your home is when we lose ourselves in the service of others. It's the secret to fixing siblings arguing with each other. It's the secret to helping husbands and wives draw closer together and have more love for one another.   It's the secret to less contention overall, to more peace, to more joy and happiness is to lose ourselves in the service of others. And so, to me, if you want to raise if we want to raise honorable, kind, generous, compassionate, empathetic human beings, they've got to lose themselves. To find themselves and define God.   And so, yeah, I think that's the secret. And of course, Jesus Christ tried to teach us that over and over and over again. He tried to teach His disciples over and over again that if you love me.   Then love my sheep, feed my sheep, teach my sheep. And what's interesting is that you all. The more we do that, the more we serve and love others.   Do you know what I believe? I believe it's kind of like the Grinch. Remember when the Grinch's heart grew?   That's real. That's really what happens. The God expands our ability to love others.   And in doing that, it actually expands our deep love of God. I think it's so fascinating that that's the fruit of service is a deeper and abiding love of Jesus Christ. It seems like it would be the opposite, right?   Well, I've got to love Jesus more in order to have a greater desire to serve. But it's the opposite. He wants you to go serve when you don't really feel like it.   And he wants you to go serve when it's not convenient. And your kids are crying and no one wants to go rake her yard. And then the fruit of acting in faith and trusting God is the love.   Laura Dugger: (53:05 - 53:34) That's what I would do. That's so good. Such a good medicine or anecdote to selfishness and issues we're having in the home with our children and for ourselves.   Well, Monica, you have shared so much goodness with us throughout this conversation. Can you explain how you can help partner with us as parents to help us teach our children etiquette at neutral times? Like you said, when their hearts are softer?   Monica Irvine: (53:35 - 56:52) Yes. Yeah. So, we've got some awesome resources, parents.   And number one is we do have a parenting course called Rise Up Parenting. And it's just this beautiful 52-week course that you get lifetime access to in case it takes you three years to get through your 52 weeks. But it is a course for mom and dad, or mom, or dad by themselves.   But it's just a beautiful way to help parents focus on one parenting skill a week. I've learned that when we have purposeful parenting, when we focus on one improvement at a time because we can get so overwhelmed, like we want we want to teach our kids to be selfless and that be ambitious and to serve and share. And I mean, it's just, it's endless.   But the Lord is a house of order. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a house of order. And so as long as we're going in the right direction, y'all, we are successful.   And so, this parenting course teaches a biblical principle and then a parenting principle that are related and allows you to just make little increment steps of improvement. Because when mom and dad improve, it blesses your children. So that's the first resource.   And then the other two most popular resources is we just have two programs. We have a program called FUNdamentals4Kids that targets children preschool through about third grade. And it's so fun.   It's just these wonderful, fun board games, flashcards, songs, stories, crafts, where we try to encourage you to twice a week set aside 15 minutes of your school day for an official manners activity and watch what happens. So, we've organized it for you. And for the little kids, we found out that if they can play with it, sing about it, make some food with it, that it helps them to go, “Mom, let's do a manners lesson.”   And then they don't even know that they're being taught these beautiful, wonderful skills. So that is so wonderful. And then for kids about fourth grade through 12th grade, we have a course called Life Skills for You.   And it's just so fun and it's so effective. Basically, it's 142 little three-minute lessons. We once again just try to get you to commit to twice a week sitting down with your family, watching a three-minute lesson where I'm teaching the etiquette skill.   Plus, we show teenagers doing the skill the wrong way and the right way. So, it's kind of funny, but it just creates some really great conversation with the family. And so those are our top three selling product lines.   And you can find all of that on our website, theetiquettefactory.com.   Laura Dugger: (56:53 - 57:15) Thank you for sharing. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And Monica, you may be familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, this is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce? Yeah.   Oh, that's a hard one.   Monica Irvine: (57:15 - 59:06) I thought about this and I'm like, it's so hard. You all. Honestly, my savvy sauce is Jesus Christ.   It just is. I know sometimes we want the answer to be something else, but in all practical terms, it's Jesus. Meaning I start my morning out every day with Jesus.   I end every night with Jesus. I pray throughout the day and ask Him to help me make a decision. And I thank Him for all the beautiful things that happened to me throughout the day.   And I just He is this person, this real person that is at my side every day, all day, I hope. And that's how I do anything. That's why I am the mother that I am.   Not that I'm the best mother, but because of Him, I can mother and because of Him, I can be a good wife. And because of Him, I can be a good friend and I can minister to others through The Etiquette Factory. It's just it is Him.   And, you know, sometimes people will ask me, “Monica, I I want to have the knowledge you have or I want to be able to whatever parent the way it sounds like you parent.” And I'm like, you guys know, it's just it's called Jesus Christ. And Jesus will tell us all things that we should do.   And so my sauce is having a relationship with Jesus Christ. It truly is well said.   Laura Dugger: (59:06 - 59:24) And, Monica, you are such a gifted communicator and your heart of compassion is evident in your outward behavior. It's been such a joy to get to spend an hour with you today. So, I just want to say thank you for being my guest.   Monica Irvine: (59:24 - 59:43) Oh, thank you, Laura. And it's been such a joy. You're so kind.   And I appreciate the beautiful ministry that you're doing here on The Savvy Sauce. What a blessing for families to be able to just hear these resources that you've created. So, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (59:44 - 1:03:26) Thank you for being a part of it.   One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

280. Implementing the ONE Lifestyle Change that Improves All Aspects of Health with Sue Becker   Isaiah 61:1 AMP “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord has anointed and commissioned me To bring good news to the humble and afflicted; He has sent me to bind up [the wounds of] the brokenhearted, To proclaim release [from confinement and condemnation] to the [physical and spiritual] captives And freedom to prisoners,”   *Transcription Below*   Sue Becker is a gifted speaker and teacher, with a passion to share principles of healthy living in an encouraging way.  She is the co-owner of The Bread Beckers and founder of the ministry, Real Bread Outreach, all dedicated to promoting whole grain nutrition. Sue has a degree in Food Science from UGA and is the author of The Essential Home Ground Flour Book. Sue is a veteran home-schooling mom with 9 children and 13 grandchildren. She and her husband Brad, live in Canton, GA. Through her teaching, countless families have found improved health.   Sue's Instagram: @suebreadbeckers Sue's Website Sue's Podcast   Questions and Topics We Cover: You've supplied us with the knowledge, so now let's move on to the wisdom, which is learning how to apply what we now know. What equipment and grain do we need to get started so that this is possible to incorporate into our lifestyle? Once we mill the grain, how long do we have to use it before it loses its nutritional benefits? How long does it typically take to experience benefits from this lifestyle change and what health benefits can we expect to experience?   Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce: 14 Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe 26 Practical Tips to Eating Dinner Together as a Family with Blogger and Cookbook Co-Author, Rachel Tiemeyer 33 Pursuing Health with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan 129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri 205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness) 212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee 256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe 261 Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice 270 Female Sex Hormones, Periods, and Perimenopause with Emily Macleod-Wolfe 275 Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:45) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode.   If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.   I'm thrilled to get to be back with Sue Becker as my guest today. Make sure you go back and listen to part one, which we recorded last week. She was incredible explaining the one nutritional difference that will change everything. And now today, we're going to learn all of the practicals of how to actually implement this into our lifestyle.   Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Sue.   Sue Becker: (1:45 - 1:46) Thank you. It's so good to be with you again. I can't wait to share even more.   Laura Dugger: (1:46 - 1:52) Well, last time you shared just incredible testimonies of the powerful difference that one nutritional change can make. And you root everything even back in the Bible, and God has really led you on this journey. So biblical passages about bread or grain or wheat appear hundreds of times throughout the Bible. But do you have any specific ones that come to mind that God has highlighted in your own life?   Sue Becker: (1:53 - 11:48) Yes, for sure. Shortly after, you know, I think I mentioned there's a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death. And we don't necessarily relate that to bread, but it certainly does describe what happened, you know, when the steel rolling mills displaced the local miller.   And then one, another one is Proverbs 23, verses 1 through 3, I think somewhere thereabouts. You know, white bread has always been around. The wealthy, the royalty, they wanted fluffier bread and they found a way.   And they knew that they could make these sieves, if you would, out of reeds, and they would sift the bran and germ out to produce fluffier bread. But only the wealthy could afford that. Two reasons.   Only the wealthy could afford servants or slaves or bakers, you know, to bake their bread for them. That was the royalty. But then also the poor people, when they sift the bran and germ away, they lose about 25% of the flour.   So, for 100 bag of grain or, you know, 100 pounds of grain, you are going to end up with 75 pounds of flour, 25 pounds of bran and germ. They couldn't give that up. You know, they couldn't just throw away, discard that food source.   So, they ate what was called dirty bread or peasant bread or whatever that we now pay extra money to get back to. But, you know, when I started milling and I read Proverbs 23 in a different light, because what happened with the steel rolling mills, when the white flour came on the scene for the first time in the history of the world, which you won't read about this in a history book, white bread, white flour became food for rich and poor alike. And that's why we began to see sickness and disease.   The wealthy had it. And, you know, the royalty had it. But Proverbs 23 says, “Be careful when you sit down to the king's table. Do not crave his dainties and his delicacies.” And I always thought that might be things like, you know, squid or, you know, eyeballs or foods that caviar, you know, things that we couldn't afford. But dainties and delicacies to me now describes white flour, fluffy things, bread and pastries and cakes.   So, God says don't crave his dainties and delicacies. They are deceitful food. And it even says put a knife to your throat lest you be given the gluttony.   We talked last time about bread. People thinking, you know, gaining weight. Well, you know, the white flour dainties and delicacies.   Yes, they lead to gluttony. So that was one that really came to mind. And then, of course, Isaiah 55 verse two. “Why do you spend your money for that which is not bread and your earnings for what does not satisfy?” And so, I always thought, oh, Lord, I didn't know it wasn't bread. You know, I didn't know that's what I was spending my money on.   But just a few weeks ago, I was thinking about that verse again in a little different light. Like He was saying, why are you spending your money for that which is not bread? We're spending all this money moving away from bread on food, the keto, the fat, the all these the meat.   You know, we're spending our money on all these things that aren't bread. They don't satisfy like bread does. So that was a little different light.   Yes, on the one hand, what I thought I was spending my money on. I didn't know it wasn't bread. But then now all these anti-bread, anti-grain diets.   Why are you God saying, why are you spending your money on all of that on and your earnings for what does not satisfy? So that was a little different light on that picture. And of course, then Haggai chapter one, verse five says, “You sow much, but you reap little you eat, but no one is full. You drink, but you never have enough. And he who earns wages, earns it to put it in a bag with holes in it.” And you may be going, how does that relate to bread?   We spend all this money on food, and I air quotes “food stuff” that is taking our health away, making us sick. To me, that's a bag with holes in it. Because then what do we spend the rest of our money on health care, medicine, whatever.   So those were some, some pretty profound scriptures that God showed me. And 1 Timothy 4:1-3. It says that the Holy Spirit declares that on the last day, some will turn away from the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits.   And listen to these doctrines of demons. This is the scripture saying this misled by the hypocrisy of liars who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared by those who believe and have a clear knowledge of the truth. That's pretty powerful.   That's pretty powerful because you can grill yourself a steak. You can eat an apple all by yourself. You can eat fruits and vegetables all by yourself.   You're not going to make one roll. You're not going to make one piece of bread. Bread was made to be shared. And even the word companion means with bread. Did you ever think about that? So, um, that's, that's pretty powerful that in the end times and, you know, wherever you are with that, but we have to believe that there are teachings that are teaching us to for, you know, to not eat foods that God created to be shared and bread is at the top of that list.   So those are some powerful bread scriptures that that have just ministered to me. There's, there's just so many, you know, and Jesus John 6:35, I typically sign my book that way. Jesus says, “I am the real bread of life. And he who comes to me shall be satisfied” in Isaiah 61. That's a verse the Lord gave me so many years ago. And, you know, most people know it, the spirit of the Lord God is upon me because he's anointed me to preach the gospel, you know, and I'll never forget.   I had the great privilege of sharing the gospel one time, which is not something I normally do. And at a women's homeless shelter in Atlanta, and I saw in seven or eight people after I shared gave their life to the Lord. And I was like, oh, this is what I want to do.   I don't want to talk constipation and poop anymore. And surely it's not important. And I really got kind of down about it.   I was like, yes, I want to go share the gospel. This can't be important. And a couple of days later, after that wonderful, glorious experience, I mean, I literally wanted to go hand tracks out on the street corner.   I just wanted to be one of those people. And I was supposed to be going to speak at a women's Bible study, giving my what my children lovingly call mom's poop talk. And I got up and I was like; I didn't want to do it.   And I just cried out to the Lord. I was like, I don't want to talk poop anymore. There's so much more in me besides this.   And surely this can't be important. And again, cried out to the Lord. Again, just turned to my regular Bible reading.   And my verse of the day on my calendar was Isaiah 61, one through three or four, whatever it is. The spirit of the Lord God is upon you. He's anointed and qualified me to preach the gospel.   And I was like, yes. And it says to bind up and heal the broken heart. And I was like, yes, that was those ladies.   I know this is what you want me to do. And then it said, proclaim Liberty to the captives. And in my Amplified version in parentheses, it said spiritual and physical.   And what God spoke so to my heart, he goes, the message that I'm sending you to speak today is to set my people physical captives free. He said, my people aren't spiritually captive. Their physical captives held in captivity by every kind of sickness, disease, snotty nose, constipation, irritable bowel, diverticulitis, whatever.   Big ones and little ones, you know, health issues. And that I got up and I just renewed my passion. And I was like, okay, Lord, this is what you've called me to do.   So that was that was the real game changer. It kind of a game changer for me. I was beginning to see the unimportance of it.   And now, after all these years, I mean, when people hug you and with tears in their eyes, sorry, and tell you that you that you're teaching save their life. Now, I know what God was talking about. And I still love to share the gospel.   I still love to teach the word. And I know God's anointed me to do that as well. But this is definitely where God has called me.   And another time when I was out speaking, he shared and I was, you know, kind of questioning. And it says in Matthew, when the multitudes, when Jesus saw the multitudes coming to him to heal him, you know, to seek healing. It says he had compassion on them because they were harassed, distressed, bewildered and helpless and dejected like sheep without a shepherd.   And it said, and then he goes on to say, and he's telling his disciples, the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. And he spoke to me then and he said, the laborers are few. There's not many out there at that time.   There were not many people out there teaching what I teach, teaching other things, maybe, but not about the bread, real bread. So those have been some life-changing scriptures that have just given me a heart and a passion to keep going. And then, of course, it's the bread stories that just come.   Laura Dugger: (11:49 - 12:19) So it's incredible. So profound. And I'm with you.   I love the Amplified version. Yes. You've supplied us with so much knowledge today and last week.   But now I'd love to move on to the wisdom portion, which is learning how to apply what we now know. So Sue, if we're just getting started, what equipment do we need? And then how is that going to be possible for us to incorporate it into our lives?   Sue Becker: (12:20 - 17:03) So like I said last time, I think we ended with keep it simple. Grain mill, top of the list. I once heard a lady.   She taught a little bit on milling, too. And she said, “I tell everybody you want to change the health of your family. Start with a grain mill.”   And like I say, over and over, I have never seen one dietary change make such profound and extensive, immediate, noticeable, across the board health benefits. So start with a grain mill and you don't have to have a barn. You don't have to have a live by a creek and a gristmill and all of that.   It will sit right on your counter. And still today, after 34 years of milling my own grain, my grain mill still has prime real estate on my counter. And it's the most valuable kitchen tool in my kitchen.   I love the Wonder Mill particularly. We do sell other mills. The NutriMill is a great mill as well.   I like the stainless steel milling heads because they're fast, they're very clean, and they just get the job done very quickly. Stone mills have gotten very trendy and popular. We sell those as well.   They're slower, might be better for a smaller family. They do, you know, have a broader spectrum of from pre-cracking, cracking the grain to very fine flour. And that's why some people are attracted to that.   But if I want cracked grain or coarse ground grain, I just use my blender, which I don't think too many people don't have a blender. You know, we all have blenders. So that's an easy fix for me.   And it's just, to me, the micronizing or the stainless steel milling head mills, the Wonder Mill, the NutriMill, they're just so easy to use. Put them together. I mean, they just snap together, turn it on, pour the grain in.   There's no calibrating, no, you know, adjusting the milling heads and everything. They're just easy, and they're fast, and they mill a lot of flour at once. So if you have a large family like mine, you know, I milled 12 cups of flour in less than a minute by the time I've got my other ingredients ready.   So that's top of your list. And then you're going to have to have some kind of grain. So, like I said, that was the next thing people go, where do I get grain?   And I'm like, well, I guess we need to sell grain, too. So we sell just about every kind of grain or bean here at Bread Beckers. We sell it in food-grade plastic buckets so that it is storable.   You want to keep your grain protected from moisture and bugs and, of course, rodents. So it's grown outside, so there could be bugs undetected in your grain that you might buy in a bag or something like that. But it's really important to protect your investment.   Hard wheat is going to be your grain for yeast bread. So we have hard red and hard white. We do sell also kamut and spelt.   Like my sourdough bread I've got working on right now is a combination of kamut and red wheat, which is one I really, really like. But those are more ancient grains. Those are in the bread-making category of wheat, so you could do that.   And then if you know you're going to make cakes and cookies and things like that, I highly recommend getting some soft wheat. Well, we get ours is grown in Montana, but they have to irrigate to make it soft wheat, so it is grown. We do have a soft red wheat that is grown here in Georgia that we sell and then a soft white wheat that we also sell.   And that's good for your cakes, cookies, brownies, biscuits, things like that. And then corn, mill your own corn. You've never tasted cornbread until you mill your own.   These are just easy quick bread recipes. You can find them all in my book, The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book. So that's it.   And then, of course, basic list of getting started items. Beyond that, you might already have oil. We use extra virgin olive oil.   That's just my oil of choice. There's some other sunflower seed oil, grapeseed oil, avocado oil. Those are good oils.   I just don't need another oil. We import our olive oil from Greece, and it is truly extra virgin olive oil. Unfortunately, the olive oil industry is not very reputable, so you have to know what you're getting.   And we actually were able to visit the olive oil factory and I guess you call them orchards, the fields, two years ago. And that was really great. It's Creighton Mills.   It's a fifth-generation family-owned olive oil company and very, very reputable. And so we know that what we're getting is truly extra virgin. Yeah, you had a question?   Laura Dugger: (17:04 - 17:13) Yeah, just with that, because it is such a corrupt industry, can you elaborate a little bit more about what's special about that?   Sue Becker: (17:13 - 21:07) Yeah, so to be labeled or designated extra virgin olive oil, it has to have a percent acidity. And I do have a podcast on my Sue's Healthy Minutes, “The Fact About Fats”, and I explain what that means. It's not a pH, but it's a percent acidity of 0.8%. And that's a measurement of the, and I'll go into more detail in my podcast, but simply it's just a measurement of the amount of oxidation of those fatty acids that are found in the olives that has taken place. So, 0.8 means that it's a measurement of how much there. And so, it has to meet that requirement to be extra virgin olive oil. Anything less than that is just better and better, you know.   So, our olive oil, excuse me, from the Isle of Crete is where our olive oil comes from in Greece. The basic one we have, the Agrelia, they guarantee that it's 0.8 or less. Most of the time it's 0.5. Then we have one that's 0.2 and so on. And we do have a certified organic. The problem is, and I know not everybody's going to run out and get their olive oil from us, but here's what you want to look for. You want to look for an olive oil that is bottled in the country of origin.   Because the disreputable oil companies, when they bring the olive oil in in barrels and take it, it might be checked there at the dock or whatever. But then when they take it to their factory and bottle it, no one pays attention there. So, they are mixing it with other oils oftentimes.   We used to sell oil that was labeled extra virgin cold pressed olive oil. We had it tested and the results came back that it was less than 1% olive oil. So that tells you it's, you know, the oils you're buying on the shelf, chances are if they're bottled here in America.   Now that I know California makes some. There's actually an olive oil company in South Georgia around Vidalia. They've learned that olives will grow there very well.   And so there's some reputable companies in the United States. So, you know, you just need to know your company. But typically, if it comes from another country and bottled here, you might need to be cautious about that.   So, yeah. So that's what you need to look for. So, I love olive oil.   Contrary to what people try to say that they are selling other oils, olive oil has a perfectly fine smoke point. And you can fry in it. I stir fry in it.   I fry my doughnuts in it. You can take it up to 400 degrees without any issues at all. I do use coconut oil from time to time.   If I'm trying to make something non-dairy, you know, I'll use it in place of butter. But then I also use real butter. So those are my fats that I look for.   And like I said, there's, you know, grapeseed oil is fine. Avocado oil is fine. I think we do sell an avocado oil.   But I don't need a lot of other. Those three, olive oil, coconut oil, and butter are just fine. Yeah.   Okay. And then raw unpasteurized honey. I sweeten my bread with honey and bake with honey if honey will work.   And in most places it will. Where it gets a little tricky working with honey is cakes and cookies and brownies, things like that. I tell people things that have more sugar than flour, you might want to eat in moderation.   And that's where, you know, some alternatives, less refined sweeteners. And we use honey granules and sucanat products for brown sugar and white sugar. So those are just some simple things.   Laura Dugger: (21:08 - 24:17) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser Team is a RE-MAX agent of Central Illinois. And she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors.   For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831. And you can ask her any real estate questions. Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer.   When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home. And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision. Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process.   This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team. The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market. But Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell.   She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process. And she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. We kept saying she thought of everything.   And Sue's continued generosity was astonishing. I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery. Our daughters also loved getting to know Ms. Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home. So whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time or looking to upgrade or downsize or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress-free and that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made. So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com.    Thanks for your sponsorship.   I'd love to go into a few of the other ingredients but first if we're even just thinking of the grain ideally we would get to come and visit you and get it from you. We've gone through all the steps.   But if we live elsewhere, two questions. How would we start a co-op so that we could have grain or how do we find out if one's already in our area? And then also are there any fear of glyphosate or any other issues with grain?   Sue Becker: (24:17 - 32:44) Oh wow, that's a loaded question. So, first of all, let's just say if you don't live close to us, we ship buckets of grain every day. UPS, we do.   But the shipping is quite expensive. UPS does not care about the cost of the product. They care about the weight.   And so, once we get it boxed up in the box that we have to ship it in, it's 49 pounds. So, it can cost anywhere from $25 to $30 just in shipping for that bucket of grain. Our grain prices are still very competitive, a lot less than a lot of people out there.   And we do carbon dioxide package our buckets of grain. So, we guarantee that they are bug free. You don't have to put your grain in the freezer.   You don't have to put diatomaceous earth or bay leaves. We've already done it. That's what the carbon dioxide gas has done.   And once it does its job, it's done its job. It doesn't matter now if you open the bucket and go in and out, in and out, in and out. But we realized back, I think I shared our Joseph vision of providing God's people with grain.   Way back, we started something called co-ops. As we traveled and spoke, people would ask that very question. Okay, great.   I'm buying the grain from you now, but what do I do when you leave? You know, I'm in Richmond, Virginia. I'm in Miami, Florida or Orlando, whatever.   So, we developed co-ops. And you can go on our website, breadbeckerscoop.com, and find co-ops in your area. And what that is, we have a coordinator, some person that kind of handles and facilitates the ordering.   If you join a co-op that's the closest to you, you'll get on, you know, there's no cost to join. And you're never obligated to order. If you don't need to order in that cycle, that's fine.   We deliver to each area four times a year. I'm sorry, three times a year, every four months. And so, you'll get an email saying your ordering window is this month.   So, you order, say, in August for a September delivery or June for a July delivery. And everybody's on a schedule. We have them grouped together.   And then you can order as much or as little as you want. And it greatly reduces the shipping cost per bucket. And you typically get a discount for ordering with the co-op as a group.   So that's a great advantage of a co-op. If you can't find one in your area, then email support@breadbeckers.com, and we'll send you the information of starting a co-op in your area. Pretty much all you have to do, because it's pretty streamlined, when people order they just go online, order, and pay us.   But then it's put together as your co-op. And you just have to facilitate the delivery and then making sure everybody knows to come get their product from you. But that's the way it works.   So that would be a great opportunity to get grain and whatever. And like I said, we ship anything on our website you can get through the co-op, most everything, really, really saves on shipping. And then we have certified organic grain here.   And, of course, it can have no chemical, herbicides, pesticides, fertilizers used at all. Contrary to what you may read and hear and see on the internet, wheat is not genetically modified, not at all. Now it was approved for testing and trials last year in August, but up until that point none at all was here in the United States.   And it's still in the trial and testing. I'm praying that it never comes out on the commercial market. But right now, there is no genetically modified wheat, especially that we offer or that's offered out there commercially.   That being said, that means wheat is not roundup ready. If it was sprayed with glyphosate, it would kill the plant. Now, non-organic farmers can use it on their soil to kill, you know, whatever's been growing.   So pre-planting, then once they harvest it, they can use it after harvest. So, there is an issue with, you know, using glyphosates in our non-organic farming techniques. It is very uncommon, contrary to what you hear people say, for a wheat farmer to use roundup or glyphosate as a desiccant to harvest their grain.   It's very, very uncommon in the United States. Colder climates where there's a chance they might lose it to bad weather or whatever, they may. But even still there's other things they prefer to do instead of that because that's expensive.   It's not cheap. You know, you're talking 30,000-acre farms, these, you know, big wheat farmers. So, it's very, very uncommon.   And you can even find that information on the USDA website, that it's less than 3% ever use it like that. Now, like I said, there are other crops and farmers that use it pre and post harvest, but we're very comfortable with our grain suppliers. Most of our wheat comes from Montana.   It's cold. And they still practice pretty traditional farming methods, tilling things under and planting cover crops and things like that. But if you're really, really concerned, then buy certified organic.   I mean, you know, for the price difference, yes, I think it's like $12, but that's for 42 pounds of grain. So, you know, but like I said, we are very comfortable with our farmers, with our suppliers. Our oat supplier says that they spot check and make sure that, you know, no glyphosate is used even on their non-organics.   I think the problem with there, and people are going to say, oh, yeah, but they tested all these cereals and these oat products and found that they all had residual glyphosate. You've got to remember; those are your big food companies. Those are your big pharma, your big, the other pharma, F-A-R-M-E, you know, M-A.   There's no telling, you know, what they do. But, you know, glyphosate use is a significant issue. I want people to understand that.   But it's more in the farming techniques of desiccating after harvest, instead of used to farmers after harvest, the stubbles all there and corn stalks are all there. They would till it all under and then that would decay and, you know, help nourish the soil. Now they're going in, and this is non-organic farming, they're going in and spraying the fields and then just using seed drills.   Not as prevalent, I don't believe, with wheat, but it is used a lot with soybeans, corn, what else, cotton. Cotton is really bad. And there's not a lot you can do.   I mean, we just have to stay informed. But I hate it when I see people passing on misinformation about making it sound like it's just a blanket procedure that's done of desiccating these massive wheat fields, you know. And I've seen pictures; people will show them dead in the field.   Well, the wheat turns very golden and dries out, you know, before harvest. And then once they harvest it, it dies right there in the field. So, it's just kind of a misnomer.   But when in doubt, buy organic. So there. But, you know, I tell people if you're going to avoid toxins and glyphosate the way it's being used in our country today, you would basically have to never leave your house, go naked and probably never eat any food at all, you know.   And think about like lawns and golf courses and things like that. If you live around that, you're being exposed a good bit. So, wheat is actually detoxifying.   So, it passes through the body absorbing toxins. So, I think you're safe with wheat and, you know. But again, buy organic if you're concerned.   Laura Dugger: (32:45 - 32:57) Love that explanation. And then because I think of the other ingredients and bread and even the offerings that you have, what should we be aware of when it comes to salt and emulsifiers?   Sue Becker: (32:58 - 36:23) Yeah. So salt is something I studied later, you know, after I, you know, I, it made sense why they started, you know, separating the bran and germ from the flour too. So, the flour wouldn't spoil, but I'm like, salt doesn't spoil.   Why would they refine salt and do some digging and do some research and you find that natural mined mineral salt has trace minerals that we need, but it's the sodium chloride that makes the salty flavor. So, they, they have learned that they can extract those trace minerals out of the mind mineral salt and sell that to other industries for minerals and leave us with the sodium chloride and it's perfectly salty. So why not do that?   And then so that it will rain, well, it will, you know, “when it rains, it pours” the, you, you're probably too young to know that slogan, but that was a big one when I was growing up. They heat treat the salt so that it does not readily absorb moisture. So the crystals are harder so that when it rains or it's humid, it will pour unlike your unrefined salt that will tend to clump up if it's humid.   So that's what started happening to our salt. And I didn't believe this, but I did just a few weeks ago, go to the store because I haven't bought salt in years. Cause I get it.   We sell Redmond's natural mined mineral salt that comes from Utah, but I went to the store and sure enough, they put anti-caking agents sometimes in some of the brands of salt, dextrose, which is a sugar. Who would have thought that? And just know that you know, the heat treatment is makes it where it doesn't readily absorb moisture.   So that's why you tend to hold fluids when you eat a lot of salty foods. So, it's trying to help your body be able to utilize it. And while we're on salt, I hear a lot of people, they'll ask me, can I make the bread without salt?   My doctors put me on a low salt diet. First of all, that's concerning, but I want to say to you, just getting rid of processed foods, it will greatly diminish your sodium intake from bread to they have, you know, when things are so denatured that they, you know, they smash it, they cook it, they boil it, they take all this out and that out. Well, then it's flavorless.   So, they have to sweeten it and salt it to make you want to even buy it again. So, if you look at ingredient or not ingredient labels, but nutrition labels on processed foods, and I'm talking canned fruits, vegetables, bread products, and all these things, you will see that the sodium levels are much higher than the potassium levels. Well, in nature, that is not the way it is in, in your fresh fruits and vegetables.   Your potassium level is typically twice your sodium level where, so read your labels on your food and you'll see that sodium is typically twice the potassium in processed foods. So that's what I encourage people. You know, you can make bread without salt.   You probably won't like it. It'll be kind of tasteless. If you need to read, if you feel more comfortable reducing the amount of salt, then do that.   But most importantly, quit eating processed foods. That's going to greatly reduce your salt intake and then use a natural mind mineral salt that your body can utilize. So that's salt.   What was the other thing?   Laura Dugger: (36:24 - 36:25) Emulsifier.   Sue Becker: (36:25 - 40:36) Raw unpasteurized honey is what I use. I recommend. And then the emulsifier.   I think you must be talking about lecithin. Lecithin is totally an optional ingredient. You can make great bread without lecithin, but I'm going to tell you, you can make really great bread by adding a little bit of lecithin to your bread dough.   It's a natural emulsifier. It is what's called a phospholipid. It has an acetylcholine that is what it's made of.   And it, it, what it does in your body, it breaks down fat and cholesterol into small enough particles that can get through your capillary wall and into your bloodstream and into your cells and your tissue. It is found in any type of unrefined food that has oil. So, your eggs, your milk, your oils, your unrefined keyword, unrefined oils, and guess where else?   Grains and beans. It's in the, the germ portion of your grains and beans. And that is the nutrient that even without adding it to your bread, it is there already.   And that's the nutrient that I discovered brought brings down cholesterol, blood level cholesterol, because, and somebody kind of argued when I said that one time and I'm like, no, no, no, no. I didn't say cholesterol was bad. Cholesterol is not a bad guy.   I like the way one biochemist puts it. She said, it's just the pig that got stuck in the barn door. It actually does.   It gets stuck in our blood vessels because its big fat molecules are typically big. We need that lecithin in unrefined foods that have oil grains being one of those. And one of the most nutrient dense ones is, is your grains and beans and sources of lecithin, so it breaks those down into small enough particles so that they can get out of our blood and into our tissues and our cells where it is so needed.   Cholesterol is a precursor of just about all your sex hormones, all your anti-inflammatory hormones that your body can make. If it has lecithin it helps vitamin D be converted. The sunshine be converted to vitamin D and our body and it makes; it's a part of the fat and protein layer of every cell in your body.   The cell membrane of every cell in your body. So, it's very, very important to get that cholesterol out of the blood into the cell. So that's lecithin okay.   That was a lot of information. What does it do to our bread? The very same thing it does in your body.   It breaks the oil down. You've all heard the saying oil and water don't mix. Well, it breaks the oil down so that it is small enough particles.   So, it will go mix into your dough a little better and it will make your dough very smooth, very silky. It will make your bread so very soft. And it's the same.   It's the reason they use it in the food industry. They put it in salad dressings so that oil and vinegar will, will mix and stay mixed a little bit better. They started using it in the margarine industry because they're mixing milk and, and milk fats and water.   So, they put the lecithin in there. Now I'm not saying don't eat margarine. That's not what I said.   They put it in Reese's peanut butter cups. That's what makes that chocolate so smooth and creamy. I'm not saying don't eat Reese's peanut butter cups to get your lecithin, but I'm just explaining that's what it does.   It's in your body and outside of your body and your food, and it will make your bread and rolls so soft. And we actually learned when we had a bakery years ago that it helps your bread retain moisture. It keeps it from drying out so quickly. But it's one of those things in Haiti and Tanzania, they don't make bread with lecithin that's an expense that we don't need. But if you want some really, really soft bread and really help my tortilla dough be really smooth and silky and make those tortillas just press out really well. So that's, that's why we use it there.   You can use an egg has lecithin as well. I use both an egg and lecithin, and I have really, really soft bread. So just depends on what you're going for.   I don't typically put it in my sourdough cause that's a different texture. And I don't typically put oil in my sourdough bread.   Laura Dugger: (40:36 - 41:26) So yeah, it just depends on what you're doing there. Okay. That's so good to know.   And with the fresh milled grain, I know that it loses nutritional value each day. And I think you've recommended don't let it go more than three days. You'll have to discard it if you don't use it in that time.   And it makes me just wonder, then I'm going to link to a previous episode that we did on preparing food for our family, because one of the practices I'm thinking of was whatever you're making, make double and freeze half. So, Sue, I'm curious then with the nutritional value, if the freshly milled grain that we use as the flour is used in our baked goods or our bread, but then we put it in the freezer to be consumed at a later time. Does that compromise any of the nutritional value?   Sue Becker: (41:27 - 45:57) Right? Not in, not that I have read and studied what we have to know that as soon as that grain is milled into flour, then now you've exposed the nutrients, the oil and all these to the air and oxidation begins to take place. You might not see it in flour, but you've all seen it in a banana or apple.   You cut it, it starts turning dark right away. So, there's a lot of discrepancy and different viewpoints out there on how long that flour until the flour spoils. Well, that would be kind of like that apple is not spoiled, but definitely oxidation has taken place.   So, years ago, I read some information that in the first day, you can lose as much as 45% by the third day, maybe as much as 90%. I don't, I don't have that information anymore. You know, I never thought I'd be speaking and teaching, so I don't quote it a lot, but I did contact a university, and they said most of the oxidation is going to take place in those first few days after milling.   So exact numbers they didn't give me. But now I will say this, I would never throw flour away. So, I'm not going to say it's bad for you.   And some people say six months to a year is the shelf life of that flour. You're not going to lose your protein. You're not going to lose your fiber.   It's still probably the most nutrient dense flour that you can use and buy. But I will say this, your best bet is once the bread is baked from everything I have studied, the nutritional loss is minimal. So, if you need to make bread ahead, have a baking day, then bake your bread, freeze your bread or whatever you need to do so that it, most of the time, my bread will last for five or six days.   Well, I say it won't mold in that time. Most of the time we eat it before then. So that would, that would be your best bet.   Also storing bread, you want to either freeze it or leave it at room temperature. You don't want to store bread at refrigeration in the refrigerator. It will dry it out and cause it to go stale.   Now, of course, if you have meat or something like that in there that needs to be refrigerated, of course, refrigerated muffins, little higher moisture. So, if you're not going to eat those in the, in a day or two or three, they, they might mold. So put them in the refrigerator.   I have learned a little trick with storing muffins, put a paper towel in the container, either the bag or the container that you're storing them in. It'll really keep them from turning gooey. And of course, always let your bread muffins, whatever completely cool before you package them.   But I never throw flour away. If typically, I travel with a grain mill or with bread, if I'm going on a short trip where I'm not taking my mill or whatever with me, then I'll, I'll take bread with me camping. Our family used to camp one.   Can't take my milk. We did more primitive camping, can't tent camping, can't take my mill with me. So, I would mill up a pail of flour to make pancakes and, and things, you know, while we were camping.   So, we would camp a week. I'm certainly not going to go home. I can't use this.   It's older than three days. So, it's not going to hurt you to go that long, but it's, it's the best is mill the flour, bake your bread, mill your flour when you're ready to do your baking and then freeze or store or whatever. But sometimes that's not always possible.   We went snow skiing a few years ago and we did take the bread machine. We went with my daughter and her family and we took, we opted to take the bread machine and we just milled flour and put it in a pail and we made bread every day. So, we couldn't take both.   So, we did it that way. So certainly there's, there's, there's options. So, yeah, but I never throw flour away.   And if I, if I happened to over mill and I have, you know, some charts that show you about how much grain to mill to get, how much flour. So, I rarely over mill, but sometimes you mill and go, Oh, I can't, you know, emergency have to leave. I would bag it, put it in the refrigerator and just try to use it, you know, as first before you use other things.   Or if I have a little bit leftover, I'll keep it in the refrigerator and use it to dust my countertop or whatever, when I'm rolling my bread or dump it in my, you know, with a big batch of bread I'm using and just not worry about it. But 90% of the bread, no more than that, probably 99% of the bread I eat. I mill the flour, make the bread or the muffins or the pancakes or whatever.   Laura Dugger: (45:57 - 47:00) So I'm so grateful for that clarification. I definitely have information. So that is awesome.   I just wanted to let you know, there are now multiple ways to give when you visit TheSavvySauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled support. Our mailing address is also provided.   If you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible, either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com today. Thanks for your support.   So, let's say we've gathered our ingredients. We've made our first recipe. How long does it typically take to experience the benefits from this lifestyle change?   And just to recap, what are some of the health benefits that you may experience?   Sue Becker: (47:01 - 58:28) Well, bowel issues are going to be corrected pretty quickly. For me, constipation was my issue. It was done first day, I ate bread.   Like I said, poop the next morning. A lot of people go, oh, constipation is not my problem. I'm going five times a day or 10 times a day.   So that's more irritable bowel, spastic colon or chronic diarrhea. That may take a week to 10 days to correct, but we've seen people very quickly correct those bowel issues. So, bowel issues are probably the number one, the fastest that you might see.   And I, I, you, I love this story that I tell on a lady, and I used to year. I've been telling it for about 20 years. And I used to call her an older lady, but I'm older than she is.   Then she was then when I called her an older lady. So, this very young lady, she was the mother of a customer of ours. And the customer was her and her husband were missionaries and they were here on furlough.   And she came into the store. Her mother lived in Boston, I believe. And she said, Sue, my mother's having a terrible time.   She it's been on steroids for 10 years for her bowel issues. That you should never do that. And she said, but every time they try to wean her off, she has horrible issues.   She now has bleeding bowels. She can't sleep through the night. She's getting up five times in the night to go to the bathroom.   She can't leave her house. and I hear this a lot. I've had a fella gave testimonies, construction worker.   He goes, “Do you know what? The number one thing I have to find out when I go to check on the job, I have to know where the port-a-john is. I, cause I have to go.”   So anyway, back to this story. They, you know, And she was going to go to the hospital. And that was right about the time.   The gluten-free stuff was coming out. And she said, so she's been told maybe you need to go gluten-free. And she came in and, As a missionary budget, limited budget.   And I said, “You know what? Our ministry will give your mother a grain mill.” She was going.   The daughter was going to spend two weeks with her. And she goes, I'll teach her how to make bread. She thought about it for a minute.   And she goes, I do not know how to make gluten-free bread. Just give me a bucket of red wheat. It can't hurt her.   She's already got bleeding bowels. and if it makes it worse, we'll just stop. She emailed me and said in five days of real bread, her mother was sleeping through the night, no longer having the bowel episodes.   In two weeks while they were there, everything had normalized and her mother had her life back. That's pretty amazing. So, you're gonna see bowel issues correct pretty, pretty quickly.   We've seen that so many times. And then for me, sinus congestion, when your bowels are moving. And we talked about toxins in your colon, sitting in your colon.   We talked about the cancer relationship. But another thing that a lot of people don't realize, what's dumped in your colon and your bowels to be eliminated every day is the stuff your body doesn't want. It's toxic waste, whatever.   And if it's not eliminated every day, it's gonna sit there and get absorbed into your body. And one of your body's reaction to toxins is to make mucus so you can blow it out your nose or cough it up. You know, think about it logically.   When we get sick with a cold or a flu, that organism has made a toxin that our body is trying to get rid of. So, we make all this mucus and that's why you get congestion and you sneeze and you're coughing, you know, so your body can get rid of it. Well, what I learned when I realized I was no longer congested, I started studying.   I was like, how is this happening? Well, that's what I learned, that now that my bowels were dumping and eliminating toxins out of my body every day, I was no longer getting that toxic response of the excess mucus. My body was doing what it needed.   I no longer needed the antihistamines and the decongestants. So that was a big one for me. Of course, the wart story is pretty amazing.   People laughed at me when I told that in the beginning. I knew that it was the bread, that one of my children's warts that he had had for three years went away in the first month. And I discovered that it was the vitamin E that protects every cell in our body and from lots of things, but from being compromised by oxidation.   And if your cell is compromised, it is more susceptible to viral invasion. Viruses are caused by warts. So now that our body, the richest food source of vitamin E is wheat, but it has to be freshly milled.   So now our body was now getting this abundant source of vitamin E, which by the way, we had our bread tested. And one slice provides 100% of your daily vitamin E need. Wow.   Now, I don't necessarily agree with the daily requirement, but still one slice, which no amount of vitamin E was ever put back in enriched bread. But anyway, so I knew that this was the vitamin E protecting the cells and making us less susceptible to viral invasion. And my son's warts went away that he had had for years and in just the first month.   So, we tell that, I would tell that story. And we have now hundreds of wart stories, hundreds of wart stories. The most profound one was lady heard me speak at a homeschool show.   I only have 45 minutes to speak at a homeschool show. And I'm like, woo, a lot of information in that. So, I talk really, really fast.   And sometimes I share this and sometimes I don't. I started to skip my wart story. The Lord, the Holy Spirit just had me stop, tell my wart story.   And I finished that day a little earlier than normal. I never finish early. And I just said, well, you know, does anybody have anything to share?   Two people shared their wart stories. Unbeknownst to me, mom was in my class, walking down the hall to go to another class because there's lots of workshops at these shows, you know. And the Lord told her to come in mine.   There, when I left the room, she was standing outside and told me that. She with tears in her eyes said that she had been praying that God would send her an answer that her daughter had over 500 warts on her. She had had them for, since she was 12 years old, she was now 17.   They had had them all burned off, which they didn't treat the virus. So, they all came back, of course. They had been on different medications.   She goes; they currently have her on ulcer medication saying that maybe it's caused by stress. Okay, so she follows me back to our table where we're making bread. She eats the bread.   She goes, it's delicious. She goes how much is a mill? I told her and she goes; I've paid more than that for one prescription drug that didn't work.   What have I got to lose? I like to cook. We have to eat.   We'll see. Two and a half weeks, two and a half weeks, every wart on that child's body was gone. She had her life back.   She was ashamed. She was embarrassed that she had these nasty patches of warts on her. She wouldn't wear shorts.   She wouldn't swim in public with her friends because she was embarrassed and ashamed. And so that's more than just a wart story. And I tell that the wart story because, I mean, like I said, we have hundreds.   One little girl prayed that God would take her wart away and they heard about the bread and it went away, you know? And because here's my thought. If this bread can improve your resistance to a virus that causes warts that you've had for five, some people 10 years, what other viruses will it protect you from?   That's important to know. And that's what I saw with our, we rarely had colds. We rarely caught flus, you know, from other people.   Not saying we never did, but when we did, we got well very quickly and typically, you know, faster than others. Skin issues. Had a mom in here the other day just say that her, she said, we call your bread, the miracle bread.   Her son had eczema all behind his ears and on his arms, all cleared up. I had another young man come from; he had heard me speak. His wife heard me speak at a conference in Missouri.   They were traveling through, they came to a class, and he came up and said, “Can I hug you?” And I was like, “Well, sure, yeah, go ahead.” And he said, “My wife heard you speak.”   And he said, “what you didn't know is I had this rash on my body and it was stinging. It was burning. Doctor after doctor, medication, steroids, nothing ever helped.”   And he said, “It feels, it felt like fire ants burning me. Had it for years and nothing worked.” His wife heard me speak.   I don't know if she thought, made the correlation with pellagra. I don't know. But anyway, she bought the mill, bought the mixer.   She didn't say anything to me. And he said, within a month, the rash was completely gone. But here's one thing he said.   He goes, “It was so painful. I had gotten to the point where I wanted to die.” That's pretty significant.   And talk, you know, and now within a month, what doctors couldn't fix, the bread did, the nutrients, the B vitamins, the vitamin E, whatever else was in that bread cured his skin issues. And we hear psoriasis, people with psoriasis, it completely goes away in a matter of a few months. Depression, anxiety.   One little girl struggled with depression, and they told her to go gluten-free and it got worse. She was so fearful. She couldn't even sleep in her bedroom.   She had to sleep on the floor in her parents' room. And the mom with tears in her eyes said, within, they decided to not go gluten-free and to try freshly milling. And the little girl is happy and excited and has her life back.   So, I could go on and on and on. And we, you know, just the health of children is powerful to me. And we've seen heart disease.   God says in Psalm 104 that he gave man bread to strengthen and nourish the heart. We've had people say, I mean, well, one lady in particular, this was years ago, I wish I had taken her name to follow up with her, but she said her husband in one month and all she changed was the bread, came off the heart transplant list. She said, the doctor says he's not out of the woods yet, but his heart muscle is functioning so well, can't justify being on the heart transplant list.   And, you know, I read the works of Dr. Wilfred Schutt, world renowned cardiologist. Do you know what he used to treat heart disease? Vitamin E.   And in his book that has nothing to do with milling your own grain and making your own bread, do you know what he attributes heart disease to? When the white flour came on the scene and they started taking the bran and germ out of our flour. He said, we lost the most potent antithrombin, blood thinning and vitamin E for the strength of the heart muscle.   So yeah, we've seen a lot in 35 years or 34 years. It's been amazing. And people write and say, “I know you must get tired of hearing this.” I never get tired of hearing testimonies and stories. And I call them “it's the bread stories” because they tell me it's the bread that's all I've changed and this is what I've seen. And so, and it's, yeah, it's powerful.   Laura Dugger: (58:29 - 58:56) Well, I love because even before we recorded this conversation, we prayed that God would do more than we could ever ask or imagine. And I feel like that's what he has done with bread too. There's still so much more, but you're just to encapsulate a few things, the improved energy, the supported hormones, the ailments that are corrected, there's so much.   And if we want to get started, then can you remind us of your website and what our first step could be today?   Sue Becker: (58:56 - 1:00:59) Yeah, first step, buy a grain mill, buy some grain, start milling your bread. And if you're scared of yeast bread, then make muffins and make pancakes. Machines help, you might all have a mixer that you can go ahead and use to make your yeast breads, but muffins, pancakes, coffee cake, three of my basic ingredients, I mean, my recipes that I started with, that's a wire whisk in a bowl.   You don't need to knead; you don't need to worry about letting it rise. Buy the tools that help you make this a lifestyle. Bread machine, you might see the Zojirushi bread machine behind you, that, I mean, five minutes, mill the flour, five minutes, dump it in, all your ingredients, come back to a baked loaf of bread.   You know, push the start button, come back to a baked loaf of bread. Mixer, for my family, the mixer worked very well because I would mix up dough to make six to nine loaves of bread or six loaves of bread at a time. And I did that twice a week, interspersed with muffins, pancakes, and all of that.   So, keep it simple, get a grain mill, get some grain and get a recipe book that you enjoy and just dive in. You won't be sorry. Go to breadbeckers.com.   You can find a lot of information. Go to our YouTube channel, Bread Beckers YouTube channel. Lots of videos and how-tos and classes, our getting started classes on there.   There's a couple of videos, a basic list of getting started items where I explain to you the hard wheat, the soft wheat, the red wheat, the white wheat, and those things. And I highly recommend, it's a long video, it's three and a half hours long, but it's called Real Bread, the Staff of Life. You can watch it in segments.   Pause me if you need to come back later, but it's very profound information. It's 30 years of studying and research and gleaning the scriptures and science and textbooks. And then Instagram, follow us on Facebook and Instagram.   And then of course, Sue's Healthy Minutes podcast. You will be blessed by all the information there as well as the testimonies that are shared.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:00 - 1:01:19) Incredible. We'll add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. And Sue, as you remember last time, we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight.   And so, as my final question for you again today, what is your savvy sauce?   Sue Becker: (1:01:19 - 1:04:32) So what I want to encourage people today is seek the truth. Use your common sense that God has given you. I want to read a quote by a doctor that promotes healthy living, but I want you to listen to what he says.   Here's the quote. “Damage to the gastrointestinal tract from the overuse of antibiotics, anti-inflammatory drugs like Advil or Aleve, acid blocking drugs, we talked about that last time, like Prilosec or Nexium, combined with our low fiber, high sugar diet leads to the development of celiac disease and gluten intolerance or sensitivity and the resultant inflammation.” Did you hear that?   I absolutely agree with that. All those things cause damage to the gastrointestinal tract and lead to allergies and things like that. “This is why,” now there's where I want you to listen and use your common sense.   “This is why the elimination of gluten can be a powerful way to prevent and reverse this and many other chronic diseases.” Next sentence. “The biggest problem is wheat, the major source of gluten in our diet.”   Did you hear wheat or gluten listed in his causes? No, you did not. He is making an illogical conclusion to his own truth that he just presented.   Wheat didn't cause that. Wheat can actually cure that. And you asked me about a verse that has meant so much to me and powerful, profound verse in the scripture, Deuteronomy 24:6.   In that scripture, it's the law. Sometimes you get bogged down in Deuteronomy. I will never forget when I stumbled, didn't stumble, but I was reading this verse and what God showed me.   In that chapter or in that verse, God gave a law for what you could take as a pledge when someone borrowed something from you. In those days, if someone was gonna borrow something, they would leave you with something of value of theirs as a pledge. I'm gonna return what I borrowed from you or I'm gonna pay you back or whatever.   Listen to God's law. He says, “Do not take a man's upper millstone as a pledge for you would be taking his life.” That is pretty profound.   Someone in the early 1900s took our milling stones, took our mills out of our home and we've been losing our health and our life ever since. Wheat is not the biggest problem. Wheat is the answer.   Freshly milled, of course. So contrary to popular belief, everything you read on the internet is not true. So, dig into God's word, find the discrepancy from what you're hearing in the world and what God's word says and let his truth rule and reign in your life.   That would be my advice.   Laura Dugger: (1:04:33 - 1:05:03) That is so good again, Sue, and thank you for getting mills back in our home and thank you for being my returning energetic and intelligent and faithful guest. You're so humble in your approach and you'r

279. What if this ONE nutritional upgrade changes everything: An Interview with Sue Becker   Proverbs 14:12 NIV "There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death."   *Transcription Below*   Sue Becker is a gifted speaker and teacher, with a passion to share principles of healthy living in an encouraging way.  She is the co-owner of The Bread Beckers and founder of the ministry, Real Bread Outreach, all dedicated to promoting whole grain nutrition. Sue has a degree in Food Science from UGA and is the author of The Essential Home-Ground Flour Book. Sue is a veteran home-schooling mom with 9 children and 15 grandchildren and 1 great-grandchild so far. She and her husband Brad, live in Canton, GA. Through her teaching, countless families have found improved health.   Sue's Instagram: @suebreadbeckers Sue's Website Sue's Podcast   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you tell us about your professional background and share what led to a life-changing discovery?  In addition to helping us feel better, how can this swap also affect our weight? We are told gluten is the enemy, but you teach how wheat can actually be the cure, not the cause. . . Will you elaborate why even people who are sensitive to gluten can still enjoy this bread and experience greater health benefits because of it?   Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce: 14 Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Leslie Sexton and Vasu Thorpe 26 Practical Tips to Eating Dinner Together as a Family with Blogger and Cookbook Co-Author, Rachel Tiemeyer 33 Pursuing Health with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan 129 Healthy Living with Dr. Tonya Khouri 205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness) 212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee 256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe 261 Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice 270 Female Sex Hormones, Periods, and Perimenopause with Emily Macleod-Wolfe 275 Raising Healthy Kids: Free Tips with Emily Johnson   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Have you heard about this one-of-a-kind experience, the Radiant Faith and Wellness event?   It's going to take place January 30th and 31st at the Cannery in Eureka. I hope you learn more or purchase your tickets on this website or check them out on Instagram at @radiantwellnessevent and make sure you stay tuned to find out what the code is so that you can purchase your discounted tickets.   Happy New Year everyone! I am so excited to get to kick off the year with one of the best episodes I can ever remember.   You are in for a treat today with my guest Sue Becker. She is going to enlighten us to the one achievable, easy-to-implement nutritional change that could change everything. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sue.   Sue Becker: (1:30 - 1:39) Thank you so much for having me. It is a real honor to be able to share my story, share my message with others that can listen and hear.   Laura Dugger: (1:40 - 1:56) Well, it may be one of the times I've most anticipated this conversation, but I'd love to just start by going back. Will you tell us about your professional background and share what led to a life-changing discovery?   Sue Becker: (1:56 - 14:21) Yes, yes. Well, it's a little bit of a long story, but I'll keep it as brief as possible. So, I always say, many years ago, headed off to the University of Georgia as a pre-med student because I loved studying everything about the human body and I wanted to help people and save the world, you know, all the grandiose ideas.   But my big passion was physiology and biochemistry. I loved studying that. Got there and realized, you know, I don't really want to be in school that long and I don't want that type of career after I graduate.   I knew my ultimate goal was to be a stay-at-home mom and I was like, okay, so why am I pursuing this? But I loved the field of study. And so changed my major, got accepted into pharmacy school, spent a quarter there and went, this isn't really what I want to do either.   So then I was led by the Dean of Pharmacy School to the field of food science, which was an up-and-coming industry at the time. I focused my attention more on the microbiology aspect of it and after graduation, I worked for Kraft Foods for almost five years as a bacteriologist in the lab there. I met my husband at the University of Georgia, and we married, actually, our senior year.   And so then, like I said, after I graduated, I started working for Kraft until I had my first child. I did become a mom, for sure. I have nine children, seven biological, two we adopted later in life, ranging in ages now from 45.   My oldest daughter doesn't like me to tell that, but it's too bad. It's what it is. 45 to 29, I believe Olivia is.   Yes, 29. And then I have 19 grandchildren and my very first great grandchild was born just a few weeks ago. So that's been a real blessing and a treat.   But after graduation, because I loved studying, it's funny, I tell everybody I'm a much better student now than I ever was in college. It's funny how you love to study once you don't have to perform with tests and things. But I continued studying physiology, biochemistry, read the works of prominent biochemists of the day and kind of came at everything with believing that we're fearfully and wonderfully made.   Our bodies know what they need and if they're not getting something they need, then chances are we're going to see sickness or lack of health. So, I kind of came at everything from that standpoint. It might be a little simplistic, but I think it's a great starting place.   So, I focused on feeding my family healthy food, you know, supplementing when we needed to. I tell people I grew up Southern. I grew up in a family of cooks and not chefs, but we cooked.   We ate real meat, real vegetables. My husband and I loved to garden. We grew our own corn and peas and beans and tomatoes and all the things.   So, we were eating real food. But we weren't a sickly family for sure, not compared to what others were, but we still had our share, our fair share. And so, we clipped along like this and I, in 1991, because of my interest in physiology, biochemistry, I subscribed to a publication, a health journal.   And the first publication that came into my home was entitled, "How to Greatly Reduce the Risk of Common Diseases." In this journal, the history of white flour was presented. Now, this was very eye-opening information.   Maybe I need to back up a little bit. The food science is not a nutrition degree. It's not a home economic degree.   It's the study of food processing. Everything that has to be done to keep that food safely on the shelf. Something's great. Something's not so great. So, when I read this information, I was like, how did I miss what's done to our bread? Through my studies, I had always read that whole wheat flour was better, but I didn't understand why.   So, in this journal, the history of white flour was presented. All the processing that is done to make that flour sit on the shelf forever, never really. And this is, like I said, what opened my eyes.   I learned that whole grains, real whole grains are the most nutrient-dense food God has given us. But in that journal, I learned that only when they're freshly milled, do they retain all their vital nutrients. You know, like I said, I had read that whole wheat flour was better.   I was trying to buy the stuff in the store, but it was kind of gross, nasty, I say. Didn't make nice bread, certainly not fluffy muffins. So, kind of gave up on that, trying to make bread with the store-bought whole grain flour.   And so, we were just buying whole wheat flour from the store. But I learned in that journal, it's not really what you think it is. And I, so like I said, I also, as a food scientist, what was so enlightening to me, when I read that word enrichment on the bags of flour or the bread products in the store, I thought, wow, we're making this better than it would have been, had we not done this favor.   I soon learned in this journal that that was not a favor that food companies are doing for us. They replace in their enrichment, a mere fraction of the nutrients that are there. And of course, I learned that once the flour is milled, I learned, well, let me, grains are storable, left whole and intact.   They store fairly indefinitely. But once that flour is, once that grain is milled into flour, it begins to spoil. The nutrients begin to oxidize.   So this led to the invention of these huge steel rolling mills that would take out the very nutrient rich bran, the oil laden germ that was causing the spoilage of the flour and leaving only the endosperm part, which is the white flour, protein and starch. Wonderful discovery. This flour won't spoil.   It'll sit on the shelf forever. And like I said, it looked like a wonderful discovery. And this all happened in the late 1800s, early 1900s.   By about 1910, the steel rolling mills had completely replaced the local millers because prior to the 1900s, most of the bread consumed in this country was either milled at home or the flour was purchased from a local miller. The bread was made at home and it was consumed at home. But with this invention, steel rolling, the steel rolling mills displaced the local millers, white flour, white bread became food now for everyone, rich and poor alike.   And can you imagine every housewife going, yay, I don't have to mill my flour anymore. I'll never forget years ago, Brad's 93-year-old grandfather lived with us for a little while. And I was in the kitchen milling some corn for cornbread.   And he went like this from his chair. He went, "I milled a lot of corn in my day." So, you can imagine people were like, hallelujah, we don't have to mill our flour.   But what seemed like an amazing, convenient, life-saving discovery actually turned out to not be so great. Shortly thereafter, the steel rolling mills and white flour became food for everybody. Three diseases became epidemic.   Beriberi, which is a vitamin B1 deficiency, it results in nervous disorders. Pellagra is a vitamin B3 or niacin deficiency, results in GI issues, skin issues, dementia, mental insanity. And that one really interested me because I did some more research on that and actually found out that the first case of pellagra was diagnosed right here in Atlanta, Georgia, which I'm from that area, you know, this area where our store in Woodstock is 35 miles north.   That first year 30,000 cases were diagnosed. Then anemia was the third disease. This puzzled health officials all over the country. They're like, what in the world is going on?   Why are we seeing this outbreak of diseases? And at first they thought beriberi and pellagra were maybe some type of infectious disease. But eventually they traced it to the new white flour that was on the market and the missing B vitamins and iron minerals that were provided by the bran and the germ.   Because for all practical purposes, that's where your nutrients are. The endosperm, white flours, protein and starch, protein and starches that we need, but not without the fiber, the B vitamins, the vitamin E, the inositol, choline, the iron, the calcium, all those nutrients. And so, things kind of clipped along.   They went to the millers and said, you got to put the bran and germ back in because of all the sickness. But the millers were like yeah, no, that's not going to happen because they had found a very lucrative market for the byproducts, which is so often done now in the food industry. Byproducts of the milling process, the bran and germ were sold to the cattle feed industry, white flour to the people.   So they're like, yeah, we're not giving up that money-making market. So things progressed until 1948. And finally, health officials stepped in, the government stepped in and mandated, you've got to fix the flour, you've got to enrich it.   And that's where I discovered what a deceptive term that is for the 35 to 40, who knows really how many nutrients are lost when they take the bran and germ away. They only replaced it with four, three B vitamins and iron. And of course, B1, B2, B3 and iron.   Supposedly, this took care of the beriberi and pellagra. But I always have to stop here and say, how many nervous disorders do we have in our country today? How many, how much GI disturbances and bowel issues, digestive issues?   How about dementia, mental insanity? What about skin eruptions? I don't think it took care of it.   But anyway, they think it did. And then it would take 50 years, 1998, after watching the rising incidence of birth defects and understanding that it was the missing folate that is no longer in the flour, richest food source, or most common, most readily eaten food source of folate, bread. Who knew?   So, they mandated then that a fifth nutrient be added. And that was folic acid, which, let me stop there and say this, these are synthetically produced supplements, vitamins that are being added to your flour. And particularly the B vitamins, this can be very troublesome, because the B vitamins come as a family, they come as a group, they work together synergistically.   When you take one out of context from the other out of balance, it actually depletes you and causes you to have a greater need. We're seeing that now with folic acid and the development of MTHFR, the folate, you know, reductase gene mutation. So anyway, it's caused more problems than it's worth.   And I've always thought about the scripture Proverbs 14:12, I believe it says, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death." And we can certainly see that. You know, and if that were not enough, now, we've, we've taken all this away, we produce this beautiful white flour, but the residual oils cause it some yellowing.   So can't have yellowing of that flour. So, they began to choose to bleach the flour and a product called nitrogen trichloride was used for more than 25 years to bleach the flour. It was finally taken off the market because they discovered that this nitrogen trichloride caused seizures in dogs.   Are you ready for this? Hyperactivity.   Laura Dugger: (14:22 - 14:22) Hmm.   Sue Becker: (14:22 - 29:18) When I read that information, it was in 1991. That was the beginning of the scourge of ADD and hyperactivity we're now seeing in our children today. And I couldn't help but wonder, you know, when I read that information, there was one little boy in my son's music class, you know, and, but now, wow, it's pretty prevalent.   So then another bleaching agent is benzoyl peroxide. It's known to destroy B vitamins and vitamin E. And let me just tell you this, grains are one of the, especially wheat is one of the most nutrient dense food groups. Like I said, but it's the, one of the richest food sources of vitamin E and no amount of vitamin E has ever been put back in our enriched right white flour.   So, we lost that source, but now we're using a bleaching agent that's going to destroy it and B vitamins. And then potassium bromate is often used as a dough conditioner. It helps strengthen that gluten structure to help get a better rise in the bread. It's known to cause liver issues and thyroid issues.   And this is what we were consuming. So, wow. Yeah.   Talk about my mind being blown, my eyes being open. And then the rest of the journal was a brief discussion of the common diseases that plague Americans and showed why it was directly related, how it was directly related to our consumption of the processed white flour, lacking the nutrients and the fiber diseases like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, diverticulitis, even varicose veins, skin issues, low energy. I mean, it just went on and on.   And from my, with my background, this made absolute sense. I knew it was scientifically sound, but it was also, it was a Christian publication. It was biblically sound.   And what changed my life here was like I said, always read whole wheat flour, better whole wheat flour, better, but I was buying the stuff in the store and even whole wheat bread in the store. Didn't really see a lot of difference in it. But this introduced me to the idea of an in-home grain mill, buying grain and milling my own flour.   That was life changing. I was like, this is amazing. I can do this.   Wanted a mill. My husband actually bought me a mill for my birthday in 1991. The mill came into our home.   I milled flour. I made bread. I ate bread.   It was delicious. It wasn't gritty. It wasn't heavy.   It wasn't dense. And I tell everyone I pooped the next morning and it was like, what just happened to me? So that was my life-changing experience.   First, first day, you know, my bowel issues were corrected. I had lifelong issues with constipation, struggled with it. Knew I didn't want to take chemical accidents.   So tried to do more alternative solutions, find those and they worked if I did them, but they were, I tell people they were outside of my, your realm of daily eating. You had to do something special. And honestly, sometimes I think we look at alternative methods, you know, supplementation or treatment for ailments that are afflicting us.   And we're not getting, still not getting to the root of the problem. My problem was I was not eating enough fiber. The white bread, the white flour was constipating me.   So this was the only change I made. I tell everyone I've not been constipated since 1991. I know you wanted to hear that, but, but then I had five young children by this time and I, I homeschool my children.   We were active in church and baseball and music lessons and all the things, you know, we were busy. I had nursing baby and, and I, but I'm telling you, when I started just adding this bread to our already real food, we were eating. I noticed significant energy.   Like I said, constipation gone right away. Then I begin to notice first week. It didn't take months.   I was like, wow, I have more energy. My frequent headaches went away. Also with my bowels moving, my chronic constipation went away.   I lived on antihistamines before bread since bread. That's another thing I can stand here and tell you. I've not had an antihistamine or a decongestant of any kind since 1991.   That's pretty amazing. I had frequent migraines, not had one since we started the bread. So those were, I've noticed my sugar cravings went away because now I was getting the real carbohydrates that my body needed and it's sustaining energy.   And then my children, I just noticed they were they were, they would eat and they were satisfied. They love the bread. They love the muffins.   They love the pancakes. It was healthy food. I didn't have to coerce them to eat.   No more snotty noses, no more ear infections for them. And that we just became a much healthier family. And they, my kids didn't necessarily catch every bug that came around.   And if one of them did get sick, didn't necessarily mean that all of us got sick, which a big family, that's, that's pretty significant, you know? And so it was just, and the bread was delicious. When I read that information about whole grains and, and, you know, how bad white flour was, I was, I was thinking that this freshly milled flour was going to be just like the store-bought whole wheat flour I was buying in the store.   And you can probably already tell I'm a very passionate person. So, I read this information. I'm like, we're never eating white bread again.   We're never, white flour's never coming into our house again. And if we have to choke this bread down, we're doing this, you know? Well, we did not have to choke it down at all.   The muffins, the bread, the pancakes, the brownies, cookies, everything I made was absolutely delicious. It was filling and it was satisfying. A lot of people would say, you must spend all your time in the kitchen when all my kids were home.   I'm going, actually, no, we eat breakfast and everybody's satisfied. Nobody snacks. And even my kids begin to notice how other kids snack all the time.   Not my kids, they would eat and they wouldn't eat till the next meal. And so, it was just very, very satisfying. So, I began to share my bread with everybody, bake bread for other people, take it here, take it there.   The next thing I know, so be warned, if you ever start milling and you make bread for somebody, they're going to ask you to make bread for them. So, I did start making bread for other people. And the next thing I know, they're coming to me and saying, my cholesterol dropped 85 points and all I changed was this bread.   You know, I feel better. I have more energy. And the lady with the cholesterol, she, I continued to make bread for her for a while.   And I always laugh. One of the favorite things she liked that I made for her was cinnamon rolls with cream cheese icing. And she said, I ate one after every meal and my cholesterol dropped 85 points in just one month.   And I always laugh. I'm like a statin drug with all kinds of side effects, cinnamon roll with cream cheese icing, you know, and she said, it was her testimony. She goes, "I knew it was the bread. I know it is the bread because three doctors, three different medications, three years, nothing has changed. And this is the only change I made."   So, I started hearing this. And of course, she told all her friends, the next thing you know, everybody's wanting me to make this cholesterol lowering bread for them, you know, and I'll never forget. By this point, I had had my sixth child, still homeschooling, still doing laundry, still baseball, church, all the things. And here I was making bread for my family and then making bread for all these people coming to my door.   And I was spending all day every day making bread and for others and myself. And I just got really tired, to be honest with you. And I was making this bread and a thought came to my mind.   And I just looking back now, I know God put those words in my heart and in my mind. That day, I had also had a few people ask me, would I teach them how to make bread? And where could they get a grain mill?   So the idea came to me, met my husband in the driveway. And I said, when he came home from work, and I said, you know what, I don't think I'm supposed to make bread for the world. I think I'm supposed to teach the world to make bread for themselves.   And that was the beginning right there. We sat down on the porch swing and talked about what we would call it. And I said, I want to call it Bread Beckers.   That's, you know, our, it's funny, we didn't know that at the time. But Becker is a German name that means the baker. So, it is bread bakers.   And anyway, so and, and it's funny, because at that point in 1992, my world was four people, four people had asked me about where they could get a grain mill, and what I teach them to make bread. And today, we, well, we, started our business right then in our home, took a little while to, you know, get everything. And we outgrew our home by 1998, what my husband and I and my children could do.   I mean, it just grew from the testimonies of other people. I mean, just like that lady when and then you get hundreds of people sharing different stories and passing it on, people, people start noticing. So we incorporated with a longtime friend and partner in 1998, moved the business out of our home, we're currently in this lovely 10,000 square foot warehouse, we moved here in 1999.   We have a nice studio kitchen, this is where all my cooking classes take place that we can seat 100 people and regularly we fill up classes like that. We have a lot of online classes already for people to view on our YouTube channel. But and then a few years ago, it's back in 2009, we acquired another warehouse because we are passionate about providing God's people with grain.   That first week here, like I said, customer base of four. A week after starting our business, getting all the license and all that really hadn't started getting anything, God woke me up and said that he was raising up Bread Beckers to be like Joseph to supply his people with grain. And I wrote in my journal that morning that it would be a tremendous thing.   And it would take a few months, we invested in a lot of wheat, we took all of our savings, this was before we incorporated, it was just my husband and I and our family and bought some wheat, you know, and had spent all of our savings. Well, I got a little nervous. And I woke up that morning after unloading all this wheat and writing the checks and seeing the money go out of the savings account.   And I'm like, I don't think the electric company is going to take a bucket of wheat, you know, for payment. So this was my fear. And I felt like, you know, maybe I was being deceived, maybe we were being misled.   And I just cried out to the Lord that he would speak to me and confirm to me that this was what we were supposed to do. And this is how I do it. I just cry out to the Lord.   And then I just go on with my regular Bible reading, not looking for something I could have gone to the story of Joseph because he had already spoken that to me. But my verse for the day in one of my devotionals was Proverbs 11:26. And it says "Cursed is the man who holds back grain when the public needs it. But a blessing from God and man is upon the head of him who sells it."   My husband took that vision. I know you talk about, I was like, what? I could hardly wait for Brad to get up. My husband, Brad, you know, I had awakened early because I was stirring and all just anxious and fearful. And the enemy was just coming at me.   And when I shared that all with Brad that he was sleeping next to me, not knowing that I was in all this turmoil. And he just looked at me and he goes, "Sue, I can think of no other verse that God could have given you to answer and your question and to calm your fears." And so he took it to heart.   So, we now have a second warehouse. It's 13,000 square feet. We are probably one of the largest grain packaging facilities in the southeastern United States.   We have hundreds. I don't know how many we're growing everyday co-ops all over the United States. And we bring in two semi truckloads a week.   I mean, I'm sorry, a month, which is actually a little bit more than that. It's about 190,000 pounds of wheat. That's just wheat.   Package it down into these great food grade buckets, plastic buckets. And we package it with carbon dioxide gas. So it's perfectly storable.   We can guarantee that it's bug free. You know, the enemies of grain are moisture bugs and rodents. So that's why we really firmly believe in packaging it all in buckets.   And like I said, we have probably 180 co-ops now. I don't know. It's growing every day.   We ship wheat all over the country, grain and everything we sell. So it's been a real journey and just a real blessing. And then I started a ministry called Real Bread Outreach.   We clipped along locally, kind of providing grain and grain mills for those who truly can't afford it. But then in 2016, God called me to Haiti. I made 15 trips to Haiti.   We built a bakery there. We trained up another team at an orphanage and they were making bread every day. So right now, in Haiti, it's an intense situation, but the bakery is thriving, feeding about 1,200 school children a day.   And then the other, it's about 150 orphans. Then we went to Tanzania in 2021. We built a bakery there, started a feeding program.   We've helped start a bakery in Israel that is ministering to the Jewish people. We helped train a bakery in Uganda and we've sent mills to missionaries in Japan and the Philippines and Nigeria and Kenya, just all over. And I'll close this part with this.   A few years ago, a friend of mine just, she did, she remembered, she said, "Sue, do you remember when you said to Brad, I don't think I'm supposed to make bread for the world, but teach the world to make bread for themselves." And I'm going to tear up a little bit looking back now, like I said, four people, that was my world. Today, it truly is the world.   And not just because of the internet, but because of where God has called us through our ministry. And it's a real blessing. So, my encouragement to everyone is do the small thing.   You never know where God's going to take you in years to come and how it's going to bless the world.   Laura Dugger: (29:19 - 29:21) So I think that was a lot.   Sue Becker: (29:21 - 29:22) I know.   Laura Dugger: (29:23 - 32:39) It was beautiful. And it makes me think of the verse, do not despise small beginnings for the Lord delights to see the work begin. I'm paraphrasing, but I love how much it has blessed the world.   And I remember the first time I heard you, I was trying to just picture what is a mill, but you literally just turn it on and you pour the grain in and it comes out as flour. It's so easy. And so we purchased our own.   After our conversation, I get to stick in our loaves in the oven. They're still rising right now. And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Radiant Faith and Wellness Event is a unique event designed to bridge the aspects of faith and wellness and to live as our bodies, minds and souls were intended and created. So come together with other like-minded women to receive Christ centered teaching on health and wellness, to nourish your body with good food and to renew your mind and help you shine radiantly. At Radiant, wellness goes beyond worldly standards of wellness and self-help.   So, from worship and inspiring speakers to guided movement, meaningful conversation, biblical teaching, every part of this event is crafted to help you reconnect and step forward renewed. It's the perfect time of year to experience something like this. Radiant is more than just an event.   It's actually a transformational experience and supportive community dedicated to helping women grow spiritually and physically. Their speakers bring this perfect balance of encouragement and deep wisdom, each within their own area of expertise and passion. They do a remarkable job of creating a safe and joyful space where every woman feels seen, supported and empowered to grow.   So, join the Radiant Faith and Wellness family today and experience what it means to live rooted, restored and radiant from the inside out. Visit https://www.google.com/search?q=mygracioushealing.com/radiant-event or you can check out their Instagram page at @radiantwellnessevent. Tickets are limited, so make sure you book today and enter the code SAVVY when registering for a special discount.   Thanks for your sponsorship. So going back to these ailments, I'm going to reference two other things that you said. First, this may be a little unrelated, but even thinking of feeding people around the world or feeding our children, you mentioned, you know, a lot of times if your kids were picky eaters, you'd say, okay, ditch the bread and just eat the meat.   But because it's so nourishing and nutritious and that Jesus has given us this as a grace gift, this bread, you can ditch the meat and eat just the bread and get so much nutritional value.   Sue Becker: (32:40 - 37:32) Yes, that and that's funny that you bring that up because, you know, one of the things over the years of studying is of the 44 to 46 absolutely essential nutrients needed by your body for health and to promote life. There's only four slightly deficient or missing in wheat, vitamin A, vitamin C. So, God gave us another kind of food.   Remember in Genesis chapter 1:29, he says, “I've given you plants that bear fruit with the seed in them.” So that's our fruits and vegetables. That's where we get our vitamin A, vitamin C.   Then we get our vitamin D from the sunshine if we get out there and get some. And then B12, of course, is low or is not found in any plant product. That's I mean, plant food.   So, you have to get that from your meat, your red meats and things like that. But that's and so learning that you're absolutely right. When my kids were growing up and the bread was my little toddler, how she'd tell me she was hungry, she would say, “I want a roll with honey.”   That was what she wanted to eat. And I would take the meat off the sandwich. And before bread, it was eat the meat.   After bread, it was just eat the bread, you know, because I knew just from that. And I started thinking about when Jesus said, “Man does not live by bread alone.” He was quoting the Old Testament, but by every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God, he was reiterating that you think you're living because you have bread and all the biblical, you know, so many of the biblical feasts, Passover and First Fruits, Pentecost, they're around the barley harvest and the wheat harvest.   Grain was a big part of their life and of their sacrifices and all that. And he was saying, you think you're living just because you have bread. But I'm telling you, there's a spiritual life that you have to feed as well.   So, yeah, that was a fun time seeing the change of my perspective of just eat the bread. And, you know, some days, you know, breakfast was typically a pretty big meal for us. Sometimes it would just be pancakes, but a lot of times it would be eggs and freshly ground grits and bread of some sort, muffins.   And then lunch might be muffins and a smoothie because we really weren't that hungry from the bread at breakfast and then dinner. We eat normal. People think we're weird eaters.   But, you know, like I said, I grew up Southern. So, we do country fried steak. We do pot roast.   We do chicken. We do brown rice, mashed potatoes, green beans. You know, we do it all.   And you mentioned something that was funny. When I first started, when I would take bread places, people go, “Oh, my gosh, this coffee cake is so delicious or this bread is so delicious. Can I get your recipe?”   And I'd go, “Well, yeah, you can have my recipe. But you've got to understand, I mill my own flour.” Two things they would always respond with.   And the first one they would go, “You do what?” And I would go, “I mill my own flour.” The second one absolutely intrigued me for years and years until I did a study on what grain mills, the local millers mills, you know, waterwheels and gristmills and ox treading out the grain.   But they would always say to me, “Where do you live?” And I think they thought I must have had a barn and an ox or I lived by a river to have the gristmill to power my mill. Now, you can see my little mill behind me.   It just sits on my counter. And you're right. Turn it on, pour it in, comes out flour in a matter of seconds.   And I tell people, it's really not any slower or more tedious than taking your flour canister out of your cabinet. And I realize we've deviated in this day and time from even using flour and baking things ourselves when we can go to the store and buy it already baked. But it'll change your life.   I have never seen one dietary change bring so many significant across the board, broad spectrum health benefits to myself, my family, and so many people now that share their testimonies with me. It's just been amazing, just absolutely amazing. And, you know, I always, my husband always likes for me to say, you know, in the 25 years of raising my children on this bread, we only had to take them to the doctor twice for an illness.   Twice. And twice on antibiotics. They needed it.   There's a time and place. Twice to the doctor for an illness. In 25 years, there are people and families that go to the doctor more than that in a week.   So, when people say I can't afford it or I don't have time, I'm like, wow, I can just tell you the life-saving and money-saving advantages are, it's hard to describe. So yeah.   Laura Dugger: (37:33 - 38:05) Yeah. And like you said, it's an enjoyable process. It is.   But also, okay, referencing one other thing, just thinking about these ailments. You had quoted, I believe a doctor just saying about constipation that is, and I don't want to botch it, so I'd love to know if you remember this, that most Americans is that three out of five suffer from constipation or even chronic constipation. And that, was it the number one cause of breast cancer and prostate cancer?   Sue Becker: (38:05 - 39:29) Oh, wow. Yes. I'd almost forgotten that.   Yes. I was listening to a CD that someone shared with me, and it was by an oncologist. And I still remember, I would listen to things as we began to travel and share and teach, and I would listen to teaching.   And so, I had this cassette, if you can remember those or even know what those are. And I remember where I was, I was on I-10 headed to Jacksonville to a homeschool show. And this oncologist at the very end of her message, she said, “Toxins are stored in your, let's see, let me see. So, she said toxins are stored in your fatty tissue. In a woman, it's your breast. It's, and in a man, it's his prostate.”   And she said, “When toxins are not carried out of their, your body daily through bowel elimination, then these toxins get absorbed into the body and stored in your fat tissue.” And she said, “So a direct correlation between cancer and constipation is there.” And, and I was just like, what did she just say?   And that blew me away. I mean, that was not me saying it, this was an oncologist. And she's saying one of the leading issues is constipation.   Wow. Yeah, I'd almost forgotten about that.   Laura Dugger: (39:30 - 39:44) Well, and such a simple swap and getting to still enjoy these foods. But in addition to being healthier and the health benefits and making us feel better, how does this also potentially affect our weight?   Sue Becker: (39:45 - 42:33) Well, that's a good question, because we're all told that bread is bad, that bread will make you fat. And I totally agree. The bread that's in the store is devoid of nutrients.   It's devoid of fiber that fills you up. It's devoid of nutrients that satisfy fiber that fills you up. And it's heavily sweetened, sugared, you know, most of the breads we're eating are not just flour, water, yeast, salt. They're usually loaded with other things.   So, they're not satisfying. The fiber in real bread fills you up. So, like I said, you're not going to overeat, you're going to eat and you're going to be satisfied.   You know, I always tell the story when, when we were eating just bread from the store, I had five children, I would make sandwiches, they would, you know, cut them in half, I would make five sandwiches, they would, or I'd make the whole loaf, actually, they would fight over the last one. After bread, real bread that fills you up, I would make five sandwiches, cut them in half, and sometimes they would eat them all. And sometimes they wouldn't.   It was because it was filling, and it was satisfying. And that's something people need to understand. Also, the nutritional deficiency in the foods that we're eating in the store, especially our bread, they're leaving us malnourished, really.   Dr. Denmark, one of the oldest, well, the oldest practicing pediatrician in the country, she lived right here in Georgia. And she said, “We're the most undernourished, overfed people in the world.” We eat a lot because we're never satisfied, because the foods we're eating does not supply our body with the nutrients that we need.   And so, we're constantly craving. I don't think a lot of people don't understand what cravings are. You're craving food because you're needing a nutrient, you know.   And so, we find that we can eat and eat and eat, and, or not we, but Americans can overeat, and they do overeat because they're never satisfied. And so, real bread fills you up, real bread satisfies, it takes those sugar cravings away, which, you know, a lot of high calorie foods, they're loaded with sugars, and that's what we're craving a lot of times. I read something, women tend to crave sweets and chocolate, and men tend to crave salty.   And, but both, if we're craving, you know, processed foods, you know, you can sit down and eat the whole bag of cookies, where you make cookies from freshly milled flour, one, maybe two, if you go three, you kind of go, I really didn't need that one, you know. So, it's just filling, it's satisfying. We have so many people, testimonies of people saying they've lost, one lady said she lost over a hundred pounds, that was over the course of a while, you know, of a year or so, but she did it right.   She just started eating real food that nourishes and satisfies.   Laura Dugger: (42:34 - 44:21) I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates.   You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product, so I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living.   You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible, so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.   And throughout the years, you've seen these different trends from Atkins to Paleo, and now a lot of times we're told gluten is the enemy, but I love how you say that wheat can actually be the cure, not the cause.   So, can you elaborate on that, and even why some people with gluten sensitivities may still be able to consume bread that was made with freshly milled grain?   Sue Becker: (44:21 - 1:01:23) Right, so, yeah, I think what people need to understand is what gluten actually is. And gluten's not really even in grains, it's just an easy way to verbalize it, I guess. So, gluten is the stretchy substance that forms from two proteins that are found uniquely in the wheat family of grains.   So, when you mill wheat into flour, and you hydrate it, wet it, mix it, you know, make a dough out of it, those two proteins, gliadin and glutamine, they form this stretchy substance called gluten. Well, it's very important in bread making that you have these two proteins, because when you make a yeast leavened bread, whether it's sourdough or commercial yeast today, those organisms feed on the carbohydrates both in the wheat and in your dough, and they produce carbon dioxide gas. So, that gluten, those stretchy strands of protein, those two proteins, they trap that carbon dioxide gas, and that's what enables the bread to rise.   So, it's unique to the wheat family of grain. It has always been there. It's why wheat is the king of bread making and always has been.   Who put those two proteins in the wheat family of grains? God did. And just so you know, wheat is not genetically modified, and it has not been altered to produce wheat that has a higher gluten content.   What determines the protein content of grain more than anything, which, what did I say gluten is? It's formed from two proteins. What determines the protein content in grain more than anything is rainfall during the growing season.   So, that's why here in the southeastern United States, we can't make yeast bread making wheat. We can't grow it because we have too much rainfall and it's too warm. So, we grow what's called soft wheat or pastry flour.   That's why southerners eat biscuits, because that's the kind of bread that we can make with the wheat grown here. The colder, drier climates in the breadbasket states of the country, they grow the hard bread making wheat. Now herein lies the problem.   When those steel rolling mills came on the scene and began to take the bran and germ out, what did they leave us with? Protein and starch. Those gluten forming proteins and starch are in that endosperm.   God never intended us to eat that white flour, those protein and starches without the vitamins, the minerals, the enzymes, the vitamin E that the bran and germ provide. So, therein lies a lot of the problem and that's what causes so many digestive issues is that we aren't getting the nutrients and the fiber that will keep our bowels clean and our digestive system moving the way it is supposed to. Now herein lies a bigger problem is that in the food industry and the American people's craving for fluffier bread.   In the food industry, they thought, okay, we can give you fluffier bread. If we take the wheat and we wash it until only all that is left is those two proteins, those gluten forming proteins. They get this stretchy substance and then they dry it and powder it and they add even more pure gluten forming proteins to that white bread.   So, now we have an even bigger problem and then and even in that whole grain bread, people want fluffy bread. They don't want, you know, coarser whole grain bread. So, check your ingredients.   That 100% whole grain bread that you might be already buying, third or fourth ingredient gonna be vital wheat gluten or gluten flour, whatever they call it and that is greatly upsetting the fiber to flour ratio and causing digestive issues. And then, you know, just the heavily consumption of that bread and you know, the commercially processed bread is a real problem. So, now what we have is people, you know, Americans consuming this bread.   Now, they have every symptom of something called celiac disease. Celiac disease is real. It is genetic.   I am learning. I used to say it's not reversible, but I am learning something that you might have the genes for celiac disease, but they can be turned on or turned off. So, perhaps what is happening is you might have the gene, but now it's being turned on by eating and consuming this high gluten, if you will, bread out of context, not the way God made it.   But then also what is also happening is so now we have people that have all the symptoms. Well, let me back up and just explain what celiac disease, celiac disease, true genetic celiac disease. You are born with these genes, the inability to break down that and metabolize gliadin.   That's one of those gluten forming proteins, which the whole wheat family has that. So, if you can't break it down, it's going to cause digestive issues, abdominal cramping. It's going to eventually as those that protein gets dumped into your large intestine, your bowel, it's going to lay down the villi.   You're going to have leaky gut. You're going to have all these issues. That is true genetic celiac disease, but it affects less than 1% of Americans have those genes and have it turned on for true genetic celiac disease.   So, what is being diagnosed today? Well, everybody eating the commercially processed high gluten packed or you know bread, they're developing the same symptoms, digestive issues, abdominal cramping, laying down the villi. So, they're being diagnosed with celiac disease when it a lot of times is not true genetic celiac disease and I'm not professing to be a medical professional.   I'm not giving anybody medical advice, but here's the good news that I do want to say to you. Non-genetic celiac disease is totally reversible. And the good news is people are finding some that have been diagnosed with celiac going gluten-free been gluten-free for 20 years.   They're finding they can eat the freshly milled flour because it has the right ratio and the good fiber and the good nutrients to heal their gut, cleanse their gut, and get their bowels moving, cleans out. So, bring that villi back to life and they're thriving. They're not just tolerating the bread.   They're thriving and finding reversal of many, many, many health issues. And another big issue too is people don't understand that for the most part digestion begins in your mouth, carbohydrate digestion. You chew your food, your saliva mixes with your food and there's an enzyme carbohydrate digesting enzyme called amylase.   Once you swallow that down in your stomach, your stomach is where protein digestion takes place. It must have an acid environment for those protein digestive enzymes to work. God knew that we're fearfully and wonderfully made.   He created cells in our stomach to produce acid brings the pH. If y'all know what pH is down to one very, very acidic could eat a hole in your stomach. But he also created these cells that produce mucus that lines our stomach and protects it from that high acid.   So, that's where protein digestion needs to take place. Here's the problem. What is one of the most commonly prescribed drugs in America? Prilosec, Nexium.   These are antacids. They're prescribing it for something called acid reflux, which is only compounding the problem. So, these antacids are doing exactly what the name of them describes.   They're alkalizing your stomach acid. So, what's that going to do to protein digestion? It's going to compromise it.   Huh? So, yeah, and the real cause of acid reflux is not too much stomach acid. It is actually too low stomach acid.   Our body's not getting the nutrients that needs to produce that stomach acid. Now, it's acid enough that when it comes back up in our esophagus it burns, but there's a little flap that God created right there at our stomach and our esophagus called the epiglottis. Do you know what's and it's supposed to close so that when that stomachs churning and doing its digestion, it doesn't back that acid doesn't back up into your esophagus, but it closes.   It's stimulated to close by the high acid in your stomach. Do you see what's happening here? So, we're being prescribed an antacid which now we don't necessarily get the burn, but there's all kinds of side effects.   We've compromised protein digestion, which what did we say gluten is protein. Also, do you know the technical term for an allergy a food allergy not a sensitivity or an intolerance the technical term for a food allergy is an adverse reaction to a protein component of your food. I have never seen so many food allergies as we see today.   It's very interesting. Some people are diagnosed with a gluten sensitivity. Well, of course, I think everybody is sensitive to the bread and the store.   Some people can tolerate a little bit better than others, but I know when I occasionally, you know, we go out to a party or an event and we usually avoid bread, but sometimes it's on everything. You know, I know I wake up the next morning and I'm like, I don't feel good. I have a stomachache.   So, I think everybody is sensitive to the bread in the store, but we have now hundreds of testimonies of people who thought they had to be gluten-free or say I have, you know, I haven't eaten bread in 20 years because made me sick. It did this it did that and they are finding they can eat the freshly milled flour because even wheat because it's the right proportions all the nutrients, you know, one of the amino acids that's found abundantly and wheat is glutamine Google it and you'll see a lot of health professionals will actually give you glutamine supplements to heal your gut and it's and it's in the bread. So, then part of the other problem that I see then when people think they're gluten-sensitive or have to be gluten-free now mind you if you truly are genetic celiac, you probably will not be able to eat wheat and I'm saying probably now because I'm learning some things that we can turn those genes off.   I don't know but if you truly are genetic celiac, but that is going to be a diagnosis that probably came when you were young you were going to always have had symptoms of these if you are now 20 or 30 and all of a sudden having these issues and you've been eating wheat all your life chances are you're not true genetic celiac. So, that's something you need to look at but people are finding they can eat the flour. They can eat the wheat and part of a real concern of mine is when you go gluten-free if you don't really need to I've been doing some studying as a food microbiologist gut microbiome has been a big topic.   I've shared I've taught way before it was trendy on, you know probiotics and all of that and fermented foods. I've been teaching it since 1992 but what happens that they're finding on these gluten-free diets. It's actually diminishing your good gut microbiome and encouraging the growth of more pathogenic making you more susceptible to C. diff, E. coli and other sickness causing organisms.   Then you're going to have those organisms are critical for breaking down food that gets dumped into the large intestine and encouraging digestion and enzymes that they create and all kinds of B vitamins and I could go on and on so that is being compromised the next thing, you know, you have allergies to eggs allergies to milk these very restrictive diets change that gut microbiome and they are causing a lot of gut health issues and allergy issues. I've talked to two people in the last few months one lady told to go gluten-free been gluten-free for years. She with tears in her eyes couple of weeks ago came down from Ohio hugged me in was came to our store just wanted to come to our store.   I happen to be here that day. She hugged me tears in her eyes and said I was down to eight foods that I could eat another lady in one of my classes came up and said I was down to seven foods that I could eat, you know, so It puts you on a treadmill that I don't think you want to be on when you start very restrictive diets. It's and not just gluten-free, but even you know, the carnivore and the keto and the paleo the heavy meat diets you need whole grains to break the fats down and cholesterol that those foods are providing and I'm a meat eater.   I mean, that's fine, but to exclude the most nutrient-dense food group God has given us in my mind is very dangerous. Let's see if we can get healing and reverse that I have a podcast and I do it's the bread stories now and I one of my favorites and I recommend it more often than any other is episode 66 sit with Sarah Valentine if anybody that I hear of that say they have to be gluten-free or their celiac, I would say she fit the bill for what surely seemed like a true genetic celiac. She was diagnosed in I think she was around 15 or I don't remember her age.   She was in high school. I think but she had always had trouble even as a little one and she was diagnosed with celiac and she said at the end of the podcast, she goes either God supernatural healed me or it was a misdiagnosis, but she had been gluten-free for 15 years. I believe it was and she told me she said and I she had a dairy allergy.   She couldn't eat dairy and she said, you know dairy I cheated on a little bit because it would just cause me a little discomfort. She goes I never cheated on gluten. Well, her brother and her mother heard about me and they Sarah was off at college and they got a mill and started milling because her brother's children had some health issues.   I think they have warts and my work stories are great. But anyway, bought a mill. She came home from school and they said Sari.   We want you to try this. You nope. Nope.   Nope. I'm I can't finally they talked her into trying a little bit should she ate it no issues at all and she told me on that podcast. She said I pooped the best I've ever pooped.   I have pooped in a long time the next morning. I slept the best. I had no headaches had no adverse reaction and she's become if any anyone My poster child for you know, reversing what appears to be celiac disease and being able to thrive on real bread and freshly milled wheat with the right balance of those protein starches nutrients fiber enzymes vitamin E all the things that bring healing and improve digestion get the bowels cleaned out and the gut healed.   So, yeah, it's something that I think excites me the most and I call it food freedom because what I'm seeing is people are in bondage and you know, when you can't eat this and you can't eat that and I understand there's some I have a granddaughter that has a dairy a true dairy allergy and I get it and those are real and you don't want to you know diminish those but we are seeing so many people that the bread in the store totally disrupts their system and causes all kinds of issues were seeing them not only like I said tolerate bread made from freshly milled flour, but bring healing bring healing and I that is so much our Lord that God knows what he's doing in his intentional design. He is all about healing and freedom versus of setting the captives free.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:38 - 1:01:40) Oh gosh, that was a big one. Yeah.   Sue Becker: (1:01:40 - 1:02:10) Yeah, but it also just one real practical thing as we're talking about gluten and fermentation with sourdough. This is a two-parter because if you feed it with white flour or add that I'm assuming that diminishes effects and if you feed it with fresh milled flour and then add that to bake it in bread, is that like double the benefits because you've got the fermentation and the grain or how does that work?   Sue Becker: (1:02:10 - 1:07:07) You know, I can't find any real definitive information, but let's back up and let's talk about sourdough with white flour there for a while when we were still traveling back in the probably early 2000s a lot of teaching coming out going even celiacs can eat, you know sourdough bread and they were making it with white flour and all of this. Is it better than the stuff you're buying in the store? Maybe but white flour is white flour and it's still process is still been stripped of all the vitamins the minerals and the fiber.   So, in my viewpoint, it is no better for you. If you're making it's kind of a waste of time if you're making sourdough bread with white flour. Now, if you start milling your own flour and making your sourdough with that, that's a whole other realm.   And like I said, I've done lots of studies most what I find when I read is that when we went to commercial yeast, we gave up flavor. So, I get that and that the bread is kind of flavorless now. So, I get that a little bit but as Americans and especially children, we like our fluffy bread, don't we?   Yeah, so, kids, you know, don't fret if you're making bread with commercial yeast. That's the way I make most of my bread. But as a microbiologist and knowing that when those lactic acid organisms feed on sugars, they produce B vitamins.   That's like yogurt. Why yogurt has B vitamins and maybe your milk, you know, just uncultured milk doesn't. So, I know that that increases the availability of those nutrients.   So, I think there is definitely some nutritional advantages that you take it to a whole new level. But what I say that commercial yeasted bread is not healthy and you can't do that that you only need to be doing sourdough, you know, I learned to make sourdough from white flour when I was first married long before milling came into our family by the time I had my children I had vacated that and then when I started milling I used commercial yeast and have for most of my years and we saw tremendous health benefits. So, I don't diminish one over the other but I certainly recognize that yeah, you might have some better nutrient bioavailability. I don't buy into the that you have to do the long fermentations to prevent the anti-nutrients like phytic acid from keeping you from absorbing minerals because I've had mineral checks and we've seen people testify that they had to have blood transfusions regularly because they were anemic all their life.   They start milling making their bread with commercial yeast, you know, and they're no longer anemic and we've seen countless people that and the same with me. I'm never low in my minerals. So, I don't buy into that.   But I say, you know, hey if you feel like you can digest sourdough bread better than commercial yeast leavened bread. I'm not going to argue with you go for it do it. But I also don't want to put a heavy burden on especially young moms that are like it's going to take me three days to make bread, you know, or it's you know, no, it doesn't have to so that's kind of my stance on it.   Do what works for your family sourdough is a rhythm. So, you got to kind of get into it about the time I get into it. We take a trip.   I go speak somewhere. I'm gone for four days and I'm like, okay, where am I with this? So, you know, that's just kind of my viewpoint and what I want to encourage people do what works for you what you want what your family likes.   I love I've got sourdough bread rising right now. There's times when I just like I just want you know, that chewy that nice flavorful bread and then there's other times where I want a soft loaf of bread for a good Southern tomato sandwich or my kids like peanut butter sandwiches, you know, so do what works do for your family do what your family is going to eat and love and you know, my husband has a philosophy if it doesn't taste good. It's not good for you.   So, if your family, your children, especially don't like the texture and flavor of sourdough some people do but if especially if your kids are used to the bread from the store, that's going to be a hard transition for them. And if they're not going to eat it and balk at it, then it's not going to bring them the health benefits that you're trying to do for your family. So, make what's cul

Luke 11:1 Once Jesus was in a certain place praying. As he finished, one of his disciples came to him and said, “Lord, teach us to pray.” (NLT) Matthew 6:9-13 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’. (NIV) 1. Prayer begins with worship Matthew 6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, (NIV) Psalm 100:4 Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise; give thanks to him and praise his name. (NIV) 2. Prayer helps us keep our priorities straight Matthew 6:9-10 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. (NIV) Romans 12:1-2 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (NIV) 3. Prayer reminds us that God is our source Matthew 6:9-11 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. (NIV) 1 Peter 5:7 Give all your worries and cares to God, for he cares about you. (NLT) Philippians 4:6-7 Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. 7 Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus. (NLT) 4. Prayer allows God to do a deep work in our hearts Matthew 6:9-12 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. (NIV) Psalm 139:23-24 Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 Point out anything in me that offends you, and lead me along the path of everlasting life. (NLT) 5. Prayer provides protection Matthew 6:9-13 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ (NIV) Ephesians 6:12 For we[d] are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places. (NLT) Matthew 6:16-18 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (NIV)

Luke 11:1 Once Jesus was in a certain place praying. As he finished, one of his disciples came to him and said, “Lord, teach us to pray.” (NLT) Matthew 6:9-13 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’. (NIV) 1. Prayer begins with worship Matthew 6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, (NIV) Psalm 100:4 Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise; give thanks to him and praise his name. (NIV) 2. Prayer helps us keep our priorities straight Matthew 6:9-10 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. (NIV) Romans 12:1-2 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (NIV) 3. Prayer reminds us that God is our source Matthew 6:9-11 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. (NIV) 1 Peter 5:7 Give all your worries and cares to God, for he cares about you. (NLT) Philippians 4:6-7 Don’t worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank him for all he has done. 7 Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus. (NLT) 4. Prayer allows God to do a deep work in our hearts Matthew 6:9-12 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. (NIV) Psalm 139:23-24 Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 Point out anything in me that offends you, and lead me along the path of everlasting life. (NLT) 5. Prayer provides protection Matthew 6:9-13 “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ (NIV) Ephesians 6:12 For we[d] are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places. (NLT) Matthew 6:16-18 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (NIV)

"So above all, guard the affections of your heart, for they affect all that you are. Pay attention to the welfare of your innermost being, for from there flows the wellspring of life.” Proverbs 4:23 TPT   *Transcription Below*   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Katie M. Reid is an author, speaker, podcast host, and songwriter who inspires others to live out their purpose with tenacity, wisdom and grace at katiemreid.com. She is the author of Made Like Martha: Good News for the Woman Who Gets Things Done, A Very Bavarian Christmas novel (which is becoming a movie) and the co-creator of The Digital Peace Pact and the Check Your Selfie Story-Coloring Book. Katie is also the co-host of The Martha + Mary Show podcast. As the Inspiration Doula, Katie coaches creatives, helping them bring life to their projects. Her album, Echoes of My Heart, the Daughter song, and The Very Bavarian Christmas musical soundtrack can be accessed here and on other music streaming platforms. Katie delights in her husband and five children. Musicals, iced tea, and cut-to-the-chase conversations are a few of her favorite things.   Questions and Topics Discussed: As a woman who excels in getting things done, what tips can you share as it relates to getting things done around our home? What are some of the changes you've made to your lifestyle that have led to the greatest results? What habits and rhythms do you have in place to support your personal development and spiritual growth?   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce During Episode: 183 Leading Your Family, Marriage, and Self with Justin Maust Patreon 47: Business, Leadership, and Legacy with Justin Maust    Other Episode Mentioned During Episode: Mary & Martha Show: Benefits of Chiropractic Care with Dr. Lianne Coombe   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 81 Sacred Rest with Doctor, Author, and Speaker, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith 150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh 256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to the Sue Neihouser Team for sponsoring this episode.   If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors.   Welcome to the final episode of The Savvy Sauce for 2025. We look so forward to meeting you back here after today's episode on Monday, January 5th.   But for today, my guest is Katie Reid. She is wildly creative and also completely grounded in her faith.   She's an author, speaker, former podcaster, and coach for creatives. She's going to share on a variety of topics today, ranging from health to discerning God's leading for what's next in each of our lives. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Katie.   Katie Reid: (1:30 - 1:33) Thank you so much for having me, Laura. This is such a treat.   Laura Dugger: (1:33 - 1:45) Oh, it's a delight to get a chat with you. And I want to go back. I want to hear the origins of your writing and podcasting journey and how it's led to the work that you get to do today.   Katie Reid: (1:46 - 3:00) Well, in about 2014, I had a bucket list. And on that bucket list, there were things like make a quilt and sing the national anthem in a professional sporting event and bake an apple pie and writing a book was on it. And so, Laura, I've always been a very driven and purposeful person.   So, it felt like it was the time to write a book. And I had no idea how hard it was going to be and that it would accidentally turn into a career that I forgot to ask my husband if I could start. But it was when I started writing and I had been writing, you know, just as a kid here and there.   But it turned into what I did as a career. And it was not necessarily easy. But God has refined me through the process.   And so, my first book Made Like Martha came out in 2018. And then I have dabbled in fiction books as well. And then I have a Bible study that is out now.   God, What Do I Do? based on Judges one through five. So, I kind of write a little bit of everything. And it's been a wild and wonderful journey.   Laura Dugger: (3:01 - 3:07) Wild and wonderful for sure. Going back to that bucket list, have the other ones also become realities as well?   Katie Reid: (3:08 - 3:28) You know, I have sang the national anthem at some not  professional sporting events, but, you know, high school events and that kind of thing at my college. I have made an apple pie. My mom is a quilter and I just decided she can do that.   I kind of removed that off the list. But now I can check off, write a book.   Laura Dugger: (3:28 - 3:53) That's incredible, which is a huge undertaking. So, thank you for your labor of love. And even going back, I love how you've identified that you kind of relate more to the Martha personality rather than the Mary personality.   So, can you define what that means and share some of the benefits and the drawbacks of each personality leaning?   Katie Reid: (3:54 - 6:41) Sure. So, in the Bible, in Luke 10:38-42, we meet two sisters, Martha and Mary, and they had a brother, Lazarus, as well, and they were friends of Jesus. And Martha it seems like your firstborn type A, you know, to do list kind of gal.   And Mary was like a disciple of Jesus sitting at his feet, maybe more relationally driven. And so, when I read this story that has, you know, Martha gets a lot of flack because a lot of people like, “Oh, we need to all be like Mary.” And so, this story, I always wanted it to go differently.   Martha goes to Jesus. She's worried and distracted by all her preparations. She's housing or hosting Jesus and his disciples at her home.   And Mary's sitting there listening to Jesus teaching. And so, Martha goes to Jesus and says in the Katy paraphrase, “Hey, Jesus, I'm here doing this all by myself. Tell Mary to get off her duff and help me.”   And I so, Laura, wanted Jesus to say, “Martha, you are right. Mary, get in there and help your sister.” But that's not what he did.   And so, I want to take a closer look at the story and see what did God really say? Because I think over time, we've probably read books or heard different sermons that paints Martha in a certain light. And I wanted to see for myself, you know, have we added things to this that aren't really there?   And what I discovered is, you know, Jesus made us. We know this from Psalm 139 on purpose and for a purpose and intricately. And so, it was no mistake that Martha was made to do and to get things done.   But she got a little out of whack kind of with her heart posture, as I say, you know, kind of trying to strive and earn versus working from a place of love. She was working for love and she already had that love right there in Jesus in her home. And so, that's what Made Like Martha is about.   But I see how, you know, a lot of us are a blend of both of these women, you know, task oriented, relational oriented. But I think we lean more one way or the other. But the world needs all kinds of people in it.   And so, I think sometimes we view it as a competition when actually it's just different. But we can never go wrong with sitting at Jesus's feet. But also, we can be at peace and settled on the inside in our relationship with the Lord, even when our hands are busy.   Because if we just all sit, things will not get done. And, you know, we are both busy moms, Laura. And, you know, there's just there's a to do list every day, isn't there?   Laura Dugger: (6:41 - 7:00) There is. But you are someone who really does excel at getting those things done. Like you said, it's in your wiring from the Lord.   So, what tips can you share with all of us? And maybe starting with how does that specifically look for getting things done around our home?   Katie Reid: (7:01 - 8:47) Yes, I think there's a resource I have on my website that we can share in the show notes, and it's called the “All Done Calendar.” And I don't know about you, Laura, but my to do list can have like 25 things on it, which is just very unrealistic. Right.   I am not going to get 25 things done in a day. And so, I created this all done calendar and it's a blank calendar. It's got some pretty designs on it.   And what you do is you write down a few things each day that you actually got done. And cleaning half of the bathroom can totally count. You don't even have to do the whole thing. But it's a way to celebrate what you've already done instead of just being fixated on all there's left to do. And so, that's something that helps me is to be like, OK, I did not get the 25 things done. But what with the Lord's help did I get done?   And sometimes I might have had these really lofty goals, but maybe instead I had a meaningful conversation with my team. Or maybe instead I left the dishes and sat down and watched a movie with my family and likely fell asleep 10 minutes in because I sat down. But I think we can just feel, especially in this Pinterest world and comparison with social media, we can feel like we're behind all the time.   And so, this all done calendar is just a really practical way to just look back over the month and be like, look what I did do. And sure, there could be lots of things left, but it's a way to just remind ourselves of what we have in that gratitude. I call it a lavish list instead of a lack list.   You know, instead of counting all the things you don't have, give thanks for all the things you do.   Laura Dugger: (8:48 - 9:05) Wow. And that gratitude really does change everything when our mindset is changed. Do you have any other tips that you use then for meal planning or logistics?   Because you can introduce us to your family as well. You've got quite a few kids with your husband.   Katie Reid: (9:05 - 11:47) We do. We have five kids. The oldest is almost 21. She's a girl. Our youngest is a girl also, and she's almost nine. And then we have three boys in the middle, 18, 16, and 12.   And so, we are a lively and a loud family. I think for me with meal planning, I actually do enjoy cooking and my daughter had a lot of culinary training. So, I know some women are just like, it happens every day and I don't like it.   But what I often do with our busy schedule is on Saturday or maybe Sunday afternoon, I like to cook things in bulk. So, maybe I'll make a soup and some taco meat and put pulled pork in the crock pot so that we can kind of eat off that. And during the week, I kind of batch cook.   So, I don't feel like I'm doing it all the time. And we also from a young age have equipped our kids to make their food. I remember we had someone stay with us, Laura, and they were like almost appalled.   They're like, “I mean, these young kids just got up and made their own food. Where was the mom?” And my husband said, “That's actually what we've trained them to do.”   I mean, they were getting like cereal. The other day, the baby of the family is almost nine and we do probably too much for her as one tends to do with their youngest child. And so, I equipped her and empowered her.   I said, “You know, Lark, you can make your own eggs.” And so, sure enough, she got a stool. I just reminded her to spray the pan and turn off the oven.   And she made herself, you know, eggs with bacon bits in it. And you can see that sense of pride. She was a little hesitant at first.   But I believe in working smarter, not harder. And so, we do divvy up, you know, chores around the house. In fact, I dare not say this too loudly.   But when I started writing, my husband said to our kids who were quite a lot younger at the time, “Guess what? Mom's not doing the dishes anymore. So, you guys are each going to have a night or two. And you're going to do those because we want her to be faithful to what God has also asked her to do. And you guys need to learn how to do this.” And so, Laura, when they first started loading the dishwasher, I had to fold my hands because they were not doing it in the way I would have envisioned.   But it was still getting it done. So, I have this little mantra. If someone else can do it with at least 75 percent, you know, effectiveness, then that should be good enough.   Because I think sometimes as women, we kind of want it my way or the highway. But then we wear ourselves out because we're trying to control or manage everything. And sometimes 75 percent is good enough.   Laura Dugger: (11:48 - 12:21) Katie, you sound like a wonderful mother. I think that's such a gift to your kids. Their studies show doing chores and being more self-sufficient, being trained that way is beneficial to them across the board.   So, I applaud you. Well done. But another one of your sweet spots that you seem to get after is healthy living.   And so, I'd love to know, what are some of your most beneficial lifestyle changes that you've implemented in your family? And now they've led to the greatest results.   Katie Reid: (12:22 - 15:12) Yeah, so, one of the things we do as a family is we go to the chiropractor. And I know that some people have mixed feelings about that, but we love our chiropractor. And, you know, I'll probably get the statistics, you know, not quite right. I'm a creative brain versus a very logical brain. But I do know there are many health benefits to chiropractic care. It boosts your immune system.   I can for me personally, some of the benefits is I used to get vertigo sometimes, which is a terrible thing if you've never had it, where the room is like spinning and I'd have to just lay in bed, which is not a great thing, you know, for our busy lifestyle. And so, I have less vertigo. I can move my head back and forth freely and lots of other things.   But one thing that was interesting, and we did interview my chiropractor on the Martha & Mary Show on the podcast, is there's so many things that can be benefits to it. And at my age, I'm almost 48. I can see 50 from a distance.   And my friends and I, Laura, are talking about our bodies so much. We are now like our moms would do. And even going to the bathroom more regularly can be a benefit of chiropractic care or, you know, your cramps not being as bad, all that.   So, that's one of the things we have done. This year, we are trying to walk a lot more. So, my husband and I and our two youngest children, we have this little half hour route that we do. And we were even doing it in the middle of winter. And then as things have gotten busier, that's fallen a little bit by the wayside, but just fresh air. We have some great conversations.   And the other thing, too, is I don't know if you're like this, Laura, but during COVID, we put on a lot of weight and we didn't realize it. We could see it in other people, but we went to the doctor and I was shocked by what I weighed. And I went to a naturopath and I just said, “Can you help me?”   And so, I thought I was taking good care of myself, Laura. But looking back, I surely was not. And a lot of it was what I was eating.   I was not drinking enough water. So, anyway, that helped to just the education of that our food has such an impact. And so, really it you know, we are not like health freaks by any means, but trying to have more vegetables, some healthy options.   I had no idea what a big deal protein was. I just didn't know, you know, as kids who ate SpaghettiOs and, you know, mac and cheese growing up in the 80s. There just wasn't as much out there about, you know, that connection with what you're putting in your body and how you're feeling.   Laura Dugger: (15:13 - 18:23) That's such a good point. I love hearing these habits and I very much enjoyed that episode that you did with your chiropractor. We'll have to link to that as well in the show notes.   And now a brief message from our sponsor. With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser Team is a RE-MAX agent of Central Illinois. And she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors.   For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today at 309-229-8831. And you can ask her any real estate questions. 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Thanks for your sponsorship.   Katie, you're such a go-getter and in the midst of homeschooling and writing this book, you also still pursue personal development and spiritual growth. So, do you have any systems or rhythms in place to support that growth?   Katie Reid: (18:24 - 21:43) Yeah, I think a couple of them. I often want to talk to people, talk about the Mary and Martha event. Some people are that way with Bible study and prayer. There are some who just love to study the Bible. There're others who lead with prayer. I've been the Bible study girl. I love to study, you know, as a teacher. Maybe that's just my thing. But prayer was something that I felt like I was always getting like a D minus in. And it's not that I never would, Laura, but, you know, I just have a friend, Lee, who co-hosts The Martha & Mary Show with me, and she is a prayer, a pray-er. And so, one of the things I did was I know accountability is key in developing healthy practices, whether that's physically or spiritually or emotionally.   And so, we started a mom's prayer group at our church that meets most Fridays throughout the year because I knew, I mean, surely I wasn't going to just pray on Fridays. But I knew if I had that group and I was helping lead it and show up that that would be a discipline that would get into my life. And it really has, but it just felt very daunting.   Another tip my friend gave me just with incorporating more prayer is to have like a trigger. So, every time you open a door to pray or every time you interact with water, let it serve as a reminder to pray. And again, I just need that kind of accountability in my life. I can get distracted easily.   And so, that was just another thing that helped me to just have that in the forefront of my mind. And I also feel like having teen and young adult children, you will just start praying much more naturally because you realize that your influence is shifting. You're more of a coach and a support than you are kind of that direct supervisor. And so, God gave me this phrase of like, "Prayer is the way sometimes we got to parenting, but prayer is also what we need to get through parenting."   And so, I have been doing much more prayer lately, but I just encourage the listeners, whether it's Bible study or prayer, which are essential to our spiritual growth, grab a friend and ask them, you know, you could text each other in the mornings, like, "Hey, I'm praying for you about this. Or will you pray about this?" But it is when we link arms, we have more effectiveness, I think, because we're not just trying to do it on our own. And I feel like in our culture, especially with all the pressures of, you know, social media and all of that, we try to be all things to our family, like, you know, grow organic vegetables and sew our kids' clothes and homeschool and you fill in the blank. But yet it's so much more accessible done in community. For example, I love batch cooking. So, maybe I could make an extra lasagna for someone and then I don't love to fold laundry, but maybe my friend comes over and we fold laundry together. I just think we can be so isolated. And we're missing out on sharing our strengths with others and them with us. And I just think family life is best done in community, if at all possible.   Laura Dugger: (21:44 - 22:15) That's so wise and so practical. I love that. Even the tip of when you interact with water to pray. That's really helpful. And speaking of spiritual growth, I do want to highlight some parts of your amazing book, which, as you said, it's entitled, God, What Do I Do? So, I want to just dive into a couple of the sections, beginning with, "God, what do I do with what you've given me?" So, Katie, can you just expound on that topic?   Katie Reid: (22:15 - 23:38) Yeah, for sure. So, we've all been given time, talents, treasures. You've probably heard those three Ts before. And at the end of my life, Laura, I want to be able to stand before the Lord and by His grace say that I was a faithful steward with what He has entrusted me. And I think we often are told, particularly as women, to keep everything in balance. And I don't know about you, Laura, but that just feels like pressure to me. Like, surely I'm going to drop one of these plates I'm spinning. And so, I like to think about it as being a faithful steward with what's right in front of me, because that feels more manageable. And yes, we still need the Lord's help to do that. But right now, we're doing this interview. So, I want to be a faithful steward of that. And then next, I'm going to go hang out with my college roommates and we're going to have a little reunion. And I want to be faithful with that. But I think we can get really overwhelmed when we're just trying to do everything perfectly. And in the study, we talk about faithfully stewarding the people, position, and place that God has put you in or that's before you. And I think that happens one decision at a time. And again, it feels more manageable when we think about it like that.   Laura Dugger: (23:39 - 23:48) I love that. I even love the questions that you ask about those specifics. Do you want to share those three questions?   Katie Reid: (23:49 - 26:27) Yeah. So, we talk about, you know, what people have you been entrusted with? What position have you been entrusted with? And what place have you been entrusted with? And I think that helps us recognize our purpose as well, like in the current season that we're in. But going back to the time, talents and treasures, you know, time, I feel like right now is such a precious commodity. And we talk about, you know, at church, like tithing your finances. But the idea I've heard people explain, what does it look like to tithe your time?   And I can cram so many things into the day that my husband and I are walking through this process of me having more margin in my life, more white space. And that's a part of stewarding our time. It doesn't mean we have to burn out and just run ragged. You know, we see this pattern in Jesus' life. He would minister and then He would retreat and recharge and then He'd minister. And I think there's some unhealth that we see in our culture and even in my own home with sometimes of just the unrealistic expectations I have.   And life happens. We could have a perfectly executed plan. But then this is a true story. The dog ate chocolate and we have to run for an emergency vet visit. Or I don't know about you, Laura, but you know, sometimes my kids want to have deep conversations at a time that is very inconvenient. But we want to take advantage of those times and take that opportunity.   And so, just going before the Lord and saying, "God, you have given me time. You've given me talents. You've given me treasures. And I want to faithfully steward them. Show me how to move forward in a way that honors you." And I think we have to be careful sometimes. I think we need to put some blinders on because what you are called to might be totally different than what your sister is called to or what I'm called to. And that we need to listen and have the abiding relationship with the Lord because we need to faithfully steward what He's asked us to do, not what He's asked someone else to do. And so, I love that word, too. What God has "entrusted" to us, again, could look a lot of different ways. But He doesn't require perfection. That's why Jesus came, because we couldn't do it. And He's with us in it. And we want to move forward with Him as we manage the people and the place and the position that He's entrusted to us.   Laura Dugger: (26:27 - 27:14) Oh, that's so good. And just to dig a little deeper then, too, I feel like I'm in a similar place where I sense the Lord asking me this week, asking me to ask Him, "What pace do you want me to be living at? What pace is healthy and sustainable? And what changes do I need to make?" So, I feel like I'm just on the beginning of this journey. But if you and your husband have already been diving in to margin, which is a word that I feel like I could answer with, and maybe slowing down a little bit, how do you do that? You're a creative as well, and you've got all these ideas and these good things that you want to go after. Do you have any practical parameters or pieces of discernment in place to know how to create margin as well?   Katie Reid: (27:15 - 29:12) Yeah, I think one thing that I am still learning is that “yes" has a cost to it, right? Now, of course, if Jesus asked us to do something, we want to say yes, regardless of the cost. But let's say someone asked me if I would write an article for a website and I'm launching these books. That sounds like a great idea. But Laura, sometimes I forget what that yes will mean. That's going to be at least three hours of time. And so, to almost look at the ask and associate them with time. And so, while that's a great thing, I also have kids that are in sports right now, and I don't want to miss those sports. Or could I use an article I've used before? Do they want original content? And so, I think with our yes' and no's, just thinking about, again, unless it's an obedience thing where the Lord has just made it so clear.   The other thing my husband often says to me is, "OK, Katie, that is a great opportunity. But what is going to come off of your plate to make room for that?" Where I can just keep heaping it on and it's spilling on a potluck when you overfill your plate and it's all spilling out and just making a mess. And so, that's another thing of like, "OK, what will come off?" I also run things by my husband or a close friend to say I have this opportunity for this. "What do you think?" Because sometimes we have those blind spots where we can't see what that might mean in the future. So, kind of a board of advisors, if you will, people who know you well know your personality. And just because it's a good idea doesn't mean it's a bad idea. And that can be so hard, especially if we're good at something. Sometimes we think it's an automatic yes, but we have to evaluate the season that we are in as well.   Laura Dugger: (29:13 - 30:26) Did you know that this podcast is 100% listener supported? We love producing free content that's available to everyone around the world with our monthly newsletters when you sign up for our email list and with our weekly episodes. We pray that this has been a benefit to you, that if any episode has ever impacted you, what we ask is that you will partner with us now and generously and prayerfully give financially before the end of the year.   There're multiple ways to do this online at TheSavvySauce.com. You can donate through Stripe or PayPal or Venmo with just a simple click, or you can send snail mail to us at Savvy Sauce Charities, P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois, 61561. We hope you choose to support us today.   The word discernment comes to mind with your book. It's a lot of discernment, a lot of these questions as we're turning to God. So, can you share any of the parts of the section that you wrote about, "God, What Do I Do Next?"   Katie Reid: (30:27 - 34:11) Absolutely. You know, I'm a pretty decisive person, but I know a lot of people are not, and they can be overwhelmed. I mean, even at the grocery store, if we're trying to pick out cereal or Band-Aids even, there are so many options that it can just become overwhelming. We're inundated by information. And so, I think when we are not sure what to do next, there are things we actually can decide, even if we don't specifically know what to do about a situation. And that's a lot of what is found in God, What Do I Do?.   And we follow the Israelites as they're entering the Promised Land. They made some not great choices sometimes, and they made some good choices sometimes. But the idea of their leader had died and they needed to know what to do next. And one of the first things they do, we see in Judges 1:1, is they inquire of the Lord. They go to the Lord and ask Him what they're supposed to do. And Laura, we can never go wrong doing that.   I have a dear friend who told me one time, "Katie, I don't like praying out loud because I just have really simple prayers. They are not eloquent." And I reassured her, you know what? SOS prayers totally count. So, if you find yourself in a situation where you do not know what to do next: "Lord, help me. Lord, I need you." You cannot go wrong praying those prayers. And there's actually, the Bible study goes through six decisions we can make, even if we don't know specifically what to do. And the first one in the introductory lesson is the decision to remember. The more kids I've had and the older I've gotten, I get a little more forgetful. I used to be so good at Memory, that game. And now it's like, I don't know, I'm going to pick the same ones every time. We can be forgetful. But when we recount God's faithfulness in the Bible and also what He's done in our own lives, it can help us make more clear-headed decisions. We have this little box in our home that we decorated back in the scrapbooking days. And inside it, we have a couple pictures and objects that remind us of things God has done for us in the past. One of the things He had asked us to do when we did not have much money, we were getting ready to move across the country and we had two vehicles. And we could have really used the money from the vehicle, one of our vehicles, but the Lord put on both my heart and my husband's heart to give away a vehicle.   And so many people, even Christian believers close to us, Laura, were like, "I don't know, that doesn't seem very wise." But we knew God's voice. We knew what He was asking and it was such a blessing in it. And so, we have a picture of that car, and we have that in the box. And so, I have not done a great job of pulling the box out a lot, especially with our younger kids. But it's just kind of those memorial stones of "Remember how God did this."   I remember one time we were having car difficulties, and I told the family, I said, "You know, wouldn't it be great if someone at church just handed us an envelope with the money we need to repair this vehicle?" And my kids kind of rolled their eyes. "Oh, there's mom and her big faith again." And Laura, wouldn't you know it, someone came up to my husband and said, "We just want to gift you this." And it was like $200 and it was exactly what we needed. And so, it's like stories like that to remember God has been faithful in the past. He will continue to be faithful, even if I don't know specifically what to do about a situation. He will be with me in it.   Laura Dugger: (34:12 - 34:42) Wow, that is incredible. And those spiritual markers build confidence and faith in us with our own journey. But like you said, passing them along to the next generation, that is huge and sharing these stories of God's faithfulness. And this is just such a small sample of your book, because I just want to make sure we highlight one other piece, but you share this insight about one part of the question, "God, what do I do to encourage those around me?"   Katie Reid: (34:43 - 36:25) Yes. So, we look in Judges 4, we met a judge Deborah and there was a military commander named Barak. And so, Deborah was a prophetess and judge, and she goes to Barak and reminds him of what God has already told him. Isn't that a good friend? And she said, "Hey, hasn't God said," and then reminds him. And you know what I love about this is we see this collaboration for the Kingdom.   And maybe it's more of an exhortation than an encouragement. But then later on in Judges 5, there's the song that Deborah and Barak sing. And part of the song is they are calling out those that helped them in battle. And, you know, it's an encouragement. They also call out those who didn't help in a different kind of call out way. But sometimes it bolsters our faith.   If someone else speaks into our life and says, "I see this in you." And a lot of times we think that encouragement, but we don't give voice to it. And I can look back over my life when people have taken the time to encourage me. It's like we cling to those words to keep going. Something we do at our church is the last Sunday of the month we have testimony time. And it is so encouraging to hear what God is doing in other people's lives. And in our own struggles, it can really bolster our faith to keep holding on and to celebrate what He's doing in them. So, I think giving credit to God for what He's done in testimony can really help encourage those around us as well.   Laura Dugger: (36:26 - 37:12) Wow, that is awesome. I love that you do that at your church. Such a practical way to live out so much of the Bible that talks about sharing His story, sharing His faithfulness, and that we overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb, which is already taken care of, and the word of our testimony. That's so powerful. And Katie, you're just fascinating and multifaceted. And there's a piece of your bio that I just love. You say that you're an "Inspiration Doula". So, I want to hear some of your favorite ways, whether it's questions or stories or bits of wisdom, to share so that you can encourage creatives, which is hopefully all of us because we're created in our Creator God's image.   Katie Reid: (37:14 - 40:11) You know, Laura, I love to see what God, how He has wired different people and encouraged them to share that gift with the world. I love holding the ladder for people so they can climb higher and do more. And sometimes I think on this crazy journey of podcasting and writing and speaking, sometimes I get the sense that God is allowing me to walk through these doors so that I can turn around and help someone else do it but even go further and do more than I have.   Nothing brings me more joy than seeing someone using their giftings. For example, we had a writing retreat recently that really turned into a spiritual renewal retreat. And one of my friends, she is very content to stay home with her kids. She is pretty introverted, but God has given her these talents that she is using more and more. For example, she directed a skit that's, you know, at our church for Easter and did such a great job. And she has written this book that's kind of like a Little House on the Prairie-esque book. And she was working on it at the writing retreat. And, you know, she's around these other women that are speaking all over the country and doing all these things. And so, some way she's like, "What am I doing here?"   And we reassured her she was right where she should be. And so, this fall she's going to teach this class using her book with homeschool students. And then they're going to write their own books. And Laura, I just think it's so fun to see her using what God has placed in her hands in her sphere of influence. And so, I love to—a lot of times people just need that nudge and a little bit of cheerleading to take those next brave steps. I also sometimes they just need to see somebody else doing it to realize that they can do it too.   And again, it can look so many different ways from having people into your home. I have a friend named Cherry and she started a ministry called "Welcome to the Table" where once a month she welcomes women into her home. They share a meal and it has just exploded because people are hungry literally and figuratively for that kind of community. So, a lot of times my coaching looks like encouragement, looks like some practical steps that they can take. A lot of times creatives are not finishers. And I have this weird blend of creativity and administration.   And I just love to help people kind of have a roadmap for what would it look like to get it done. And so many people do not set deadlines, Laura. They're like, "Yes, I'm going to write that book. Or yes, I'm going to start that event. Or yes, I'm going to start a book club." But then they don't give themselves a deadline. So, even just that little tip of like tell somebody else your deadline can really help get the wheels turning.   Laura Dugger: (40:11 - 40:41) That's good. Again, such practical advice. And Katie, you are such a natural encourager. There's even a joy or lightheartedness in your voice and a warmth. And I love how you come alongside others and help develop them and see their dreams fulfilled. So, I love that generosity of spirit. But I also want to hear what else is coming next for you, including, will you tell us about this novel that's becoming a movie?   Katie Reid: (40:42 - 42:40) Yes. So, interestingly enough, when I launched my first book, Made Like Martha came out in 2018. And then I had this idea for a book about Deborah from Judges. Well, wouldn't you know, here we are seven years later and that book is finally coming out. So, in the meantime, as I was encountering a lot of closed doors about this particular book, I was like, "Well, I'm a creative and I'm a writer. And if I can't write nonfiction, I guess I'll try fiction."   And so, I wrote a Hallmark-like story called A Very Bavarian Christmas. We self-published it. It came out in 2020. And funny that God knew that people actually needed something lighthearted with a happy ending because I wrote it in 2019. And then when it came out, people were hunkered down and just needed that kind of feel good type of clean rom-com. And so, I call this the little book that could, Laura, because literally I got an email from Carlos from California and that it went to my spam folder. And it surely sounded like spam, but what Carlos said is, "Our team has read your book and we would like to purchase the movie rights." And so, sometime in the future, it will likely be on UP TV. There's going to be a movie based on my novel.   And then the sequel, A Very Bavarian Summer, has recently come out. July 5th was its release date. And it's just been such a fun journey. So, a publisher ended up picking up the series. And I was just as surprised as anyone. I was hoping it would be a movie. I kind of wrote it like that. And again, there was many voices saying, "Yeah, you know, you're not a fiction writer. So, let's kind of see how it goes." But I just knew that God had given me this story and that anything is possible. And it wasn't a guarantee. It would all turn out how I thought it would. But it's been a very fun and exciting journey for sure.   Laura Dugger: (42:41 - 42:52) That's incredible. So excited for you. I have to keep us posted for when we can see that. But where else can we go after this conversation to continue learning more from you?   Katie Reid: (42:53 - 43:51) Well, the best place is at my website, katiemreid.com. And Reid is R-E-I-D. And if you subscribe, listeners, to my website, I send out a good newsletter, I call it, once a month with all the things. I'm also on Instagram @katiem_reid. And then my books are available, Made Like Martha, God, What Do I Do?, A Very Bavarian Christmas, and A Very Bavarian Summer. And so, we're also pitching another Bible study. So, hopefully in a year or so there will be some more. But I love to resource people. My desire, whether I am writing nonfiction or fiction, is to see captives set free. Because Jesus has set me free. And I long for others to live that abundant life with Jesus. And so, that thread is throughout each resource we offer. And I would love to connect with listeners over my website or online.   Laura Dugger: (43:52 - 44:17) I'll make sure to link to all of that in the show notes. I love that, setting the captives free, joining that good work that Jesus is doing. And Katie, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce. Because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight or discernment. So, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Katie Reid: (44:18 - 45:12) Well, I am bad at small talk. I like to go deep fast. And so, I feel like my savvy sauce is asking meaningful questions. Whether that be of my spouse or my kids. And really getting to know their heart and what makes them tick. We call them quality questions.   And I think people are willing to open up when they feel safe, when they feel seen, and when they feel known. And so, I love to just kind of dive in deep. In fact, my husband and I will joke if we're out on a double date or something. I'll just say, "Listen, I'm bad at small talk. So, can we talk about fill in the blank?" And so, I think that's one of my savvy sauces. It might annoy some people, I guess. But I think it's really fun to watch someone talk about something they're passionate about. And just get to know them better.   Laura Dugger: (45:13 - 45:52) Amen to that. I love that so much. I do not think it's obnoxious or annoying or anything. I actually very much appreciate when we first met through Justin and Jenny Moss. And Justin's been a repeat guest, so I'll link to his episodes as well. But we met at their daughter's wedding. And I was instantly drawn to you. And it was near the end of the night, so we didn't get to spend as much time together as I hoped. But you have that magnetic personality. And I love even the gifts of your decisiveness. And the way that you're able to articulate all of your wisdom and share it with us. It was such a blessing. So, thank you for being my guest today.   Katie Reid: (45:53 - 46:04) Laura, thank you so much. And I love what you're doing with The Savvy Sauce podcast. And you are just shining and in your element. And it's so evident. And I just appreciate you.     Laura Dugger: (46:04 – 49:49) Thank you, Katie. One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

“Therefore see that you walk carefully [living life with honor, purpose, and courage; shunning those who tolerate and enable evil], not as the unwise, but as wise [sensible, intelligent, discerning people], making the very most of your time [on earth, recognizing and taking advantage of each opportunity and using it with wisdom and diligence], because the days are [filled with] evil.” Ephesians 5:15-16 AMP   *Transcription Below*   Questions and Topics We Discuss: How did God meet you in your experience of army life to reveal your choice of hope vs. fear? What have you learned about community, both before and after your experience of launching your husband into space? For all of us, how can we rediscover our fun side when we've been trapped in survival mode for too long?   Stacey Morgan is always ready with a funny or thoughtful story from her own life; whether it be holding down the home front during military deployments, working for the Smithsonian, skydiving, or blasting  her husband into outer space. Stacey is on staff with MOPS International, a nonprofit focused on the unique needs of mothers around the world. She and her husband, Army colonel and NASA astronaut Drew Morgan, have four children.   Connect with Stacey on Instagram or through her website.   Other Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Friendship: Friendship with Drew Hunter Reflecting Jesus in Our Relationships with Rach Kincaid Nurturing Friendships with Jackie Coleman Art of Friendship with Kim Wier   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:54) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities.   Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.   I'm so excited to share a special Patreon re-release episode. And if you've been with The Savvy Sauce for a while, you know that we used to make some money by having people sign up for Patreon and as a reward, they would get access to special episodes. Now we have done away with that as we've transitioned to becoming a nonprofit, and we want to make all of these episodes available to you, so we re-release a few every year.   What I'd love to ask is, as we're approaching the end of year because we've taken out that revenue stream, would you consider financially supporting Savvy Sauce Charities?   There are two simple ways. First, if you want to mail us a check, that saves us all of the processing fees, and you can make that out to Savvy Sauce Charities and mail it to P.O. Box 101, Roanoke, Illinois 61561. Also, if you want to go online, visit thesavvysauce.com and you can type in different words to the search button. You could type in “donate” or “support” and it should take you to the place where there's a button to click and put in your credit card information and give that way. We would be so grateful for any amount, and we love our partnership with you.   Here's our chat.   Stacey Morgan is my guest today, and you may have heard her name in the news over the past few years. She has documented her story in her debut book, The Astronaut's Wife: How Launching My Husband into Outer Space Changed the Way I Live on Earth. And now she's going to share more about that season and all the lessons God taught her about making the most of her one incredible life, and she's going to inspire each of us to do the same.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.   Stacey Morgan: (2:55 - 2:58) I am so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger: (2:58 - 3:07) Well, it is truly my pleasure. And will you just start by giving us a little bit more context for our time together and just share a few things about yourself?   Stacey Morgan: (3:08 - 4:49) Sure. Well, hi, my name is Stacey. I currently live in Texas.   I have four kids. I'm married to a guy named Drew who has kind of an unusual job. I grew up in a small town just outside of Boston and was kind of a scholar-athlete growing up interested in a lot of different things but always involved in church and youth group. And that really served me well when I went off to college.   The first college I went to, West Point. And actually, I'll tell you in a minute, but that is where I eventually met my now husband, Drew.   We got married after I graduated from undergrad. He's a little bit older than me and he is an Army officer. And so, we have moved all over the country. We've lived on both coasts and had a number of kinds of unusual situations just, you know, kind of typical for a military family living all over the place.   I've had a lot of crazy jobs. I think mainly I have an unusual story because I'm really quick to say yes to things, which sometimes, you know, it's a double-edged sword. Sometimes you say yes and you realize, “I should have thought through that a little bit more.” But really it's been quite an adventure because we have had the opportunity to live in a lot of different places, experience a lot of different things.   And we ended up here in 2013. We can kind of get into that if you want, but we ended up down here in Texas with my husband, who is still an Army officer, but he became a NASA astronaut. And so, that totally changed the direction of our lives and kind of changing all the plans we had for what we were supposed to be doing in the military and ending up down here at Johnson Space Center. Then, him eventually launching into outer space.   Laura Dugger: (4:49 - 5:01) Wow, there are so many points to unpack, but let's back it up to what you had mentioned about West Point. So, will you just elaborate and tell us more about how you and Drew met and fell in love?   Stacey Morgan: (5:01 - 7:21) Sure. So, we were both cadets at West Point when we met. He was a little bit older than me, but we met through Officers' Christian Fellowship, which is a Christian club that is very popular on military bases, both at the academies but in big Army and other services as well when you get out.   It's a, you know, it's like small groups, typical for what most people would find comfortable in kind of church community. And so, we met there and we just kind of clicked, you know.   I would say it's funny looking back, we were not the type of people I think we would have thought we would marry. He was far more serious than I am. I'm a little bit more, I'm the one to more kind of like walk the fine line, but we work together really well.   We've always been a great team. That's always been a real theme in our marriage, you know, that we are a team. And, you know, when he proposed after I graduated from undergrad, he kind of said, “I promise you a life of adventure,” which at the time sounded wonderful and adorable.   Of course, it has come back to haunt me several times when he has been, you know, come up with some crazy plan and when I hesitate he's like, “I promised you adventure.” And I'm like, “Now that's unfair. I did not know when you said adventure back in 2000 that you meant all these crazy things like going to space or all these different deployments and all this kind of stuff like that.”   So, we now have four kids. We've been married this summer will be 22 years. And, you know, it hasn't been without its challenges like any marriage and certainly any marriage under stress because of stressful situations, whether that's military deployments, whether that's space travel or just kind of life and parenting. And as you kind of grow up together and get to know each other and the world changes around you, we've certainly had ups and downs, but we are a team.   And I think God has really honored that and it's been really helpful for us when we've had those sticky seasons where you just feel like, “Man, we are just not connecting or kind of jiving the way we would want,” to actually say to each other that we are on the same team and that has been really helpful.   Laura Dugger: (7:22 - 7:40) The part of your story that involves space travel is one that most of us will never be able to relate to experientially, but it's still extraordinary. So, can you walk us through the detailed events leading up to 9:28 p.m. on July 20th, 2019?   Stacey Morgan: (7:42 - 15:28) Sure. So, I should back it up one big step behind that just to give everybody a little context. So, in 2012, we were kind of living our lives. We had always been deep into the Army Special Operations community. We love that. In order to live and kind of thrive in that environment you have to be all in, and we were all in.   And one day my husband came home and he was uncharacteristically giddy and he said, “You're not gonna believe this huge news. NASA is opening up the application window for a new class of astronauts.”   And I thought, “Why are you telling me this? This has no bearing whatsoever on our lives. We are on this path and that is a completely different path.”   And he said, “Well, I want to apply.”   And I thought to myself, “Well, I wanted to be a ballerina at one point in life, but that ship sailed. Like who doesn't say they always wanted to be an astronaut? Like this seems like a childhood fantasy.”   But he said, “No, I just want to apply. Like don't worry, all of our plans are gonna stay the same. They've never selected an Army physician before. I just, you know, I want to...” You know, the joke was that you'll always be a NASA applicant, right? And that'll be great. We'll laugh about it at family Christmases and stuff.   Except he kept making it through every gate. And so, in 2013 we got the call that completely took our life off of one set of train tracks and put it on another. At that time, we were currently stationed just outside of Washington DC at Fort Belvoir. We were supposed to be literally the next week moving to Germany. And that's how close these changes kind of came up on themselves. And so, we had to unravel everything for Germany and move to Houston, Texas, because that's where Johnson Space Center is.   And so, he began his training in 2013. I started my journey in learning a whole new culture, a whole new way of doing life. I'd never lived in a place that was at least not near a military base or within a military community. Didn't quite recognize at the time how much that shared sense of community had made things easier in terms of connecting with people before that and when I didn't have it.   So, it was probably our rockiest transition for me personally that I'd ever had in terms of friendships and getting connected. That's a big part of my story because I think friendship struggles are so common for adult women. It's just something that nobody really teaches us how to do and so a lot of women are very lonely.   But fast forward, he trained for several years until it was eventually his turn to fly. And in 2019, the only way to get to the International Space Station was to fly on a Russian Soyuz rocket. So, some people are very confused because they think, “Well, every space movie I've ever watched is taking place in Florida, right? Whether that's Apollo 13 or Armageddon or whatever. Why didn't he launch from Florida?”   Well, between 2011 and 2020, the Space Shuttle program had ended. SpaceX Crew Dragon had not yet started launching from Florida again. So, for about a 10-year period, the only way to get to and from the International Space Station was to ride a Russian rocket.   So, that's what NASA did. They went into partnership with the Russians, which of course makes things very interesting given today's kind of current political climate and all the world events. But that meant when it was Drew's turn to launch, we as a family had to travel to Kazakhstan, which is a country that I could not spell before 2019.   And so, if you don't know where that is, don't feel bad. I didn't either. I had to look it up. It's a former Soviet Republic really kind of in between Russia and Afghanistan. So, it is in the middle of nowhere. And when the Soviets were building their space program in the 1950s and 60s, they built their secret space city there in Kazakhstan. That's where they started their space program and they have kind of kept it unchanged and they continue to launch their rockets from there today.   It was a whole kind of world travel and cultural experience to take my four kids to Kazakhstan, which is a completely different cultural experience for really what came down to a very stressful, very emotional moment really waiting for that launch. So, unlike Florida, which you know when you watch on television, it's colorful, there's a lot of people, a lot of spectators, big people remember from the shuttle days big countdown clock, a loudspeaker kind of telling everybody what's going on... that's not how it is in Kazakhstan.   So, about 30 minutes before the launch, the kids and I were brought to this viewing area. And by viewing area I would say big field. It's not... there was kind of some grandstands area far at the other end of the field, but that's where all the space tourists stand and the press and all that kind of stuff and we didn't want to be near them. So, our escort brought us down to the end, the other end of the field, and it's just dark and it's quiet and there's no announcements. There's no countdown clock. It's just looking at your watch or your phone there just kind of in the dark and you just know that that Russian ground crew is going to launch that rocket at exactly 9:28 p.m. Not a minute earlier, not a minute later.   And so, standing there in the dark holding my kids' hands, and we can see the rocket in the distance only about a mile away, which by rocket launch standards is very close. Knowing that in a minute or 30 seconds or 10 seconds as it gets closer, it's either going to be one of the best days of your life, super exciting, super proud moment, or it's going to be the worst day of your life, and you could become a widow.   And as much as it's easy to kind of get complacent because incidents are so rare, but we all can remember any number of space disasters that have happened. Columbia, Challenger, those are very real. And with my time down here at Johnson Space Center, you come to learn those names and you meet those families and you meet those widows and widowers and you realize that space travel is dangerous. You know, at the end of the day my husband was in a little tiny capsule on top of a rocket full of highly explosive fuel. So, it's very scary.   And in that moment standing there thinking, “In 10 seconds my life is going to change no matter what happens.” Even if this goes perfectly, what happens next? I don't really know. It's kind of like having a baby. You can read all about it and assume things will be the way they're going to be, but until you're in it and then it happens, you don't really know how it's gonna go.   And so, it was a really overwhelmingly emotional moment because you think this could go sideways. And also, by the way, the world is watching live with me. So, if something goes wrong, I'm not able to process this privately. I will be experiencing it in real time with the rest of the world.   But even if it goes perfectly, what happens next? Like what does it look like to live on earth with a spouse in space and single parent for nine plus months while their other parent is in space? And you really don't know and it's scary to think like, “Gosh, what if something happens?” You know, he can't like come home early. Can't just like a business trip jump on a plane or a train and get home early. There's no coming back early. So, whatever happens, I'm on my own for better or worse. I'm on my own and I hope I have the endurance and the support system and everything I'm gonna need in order to be successful in this nine months.   Laura Dugger: (15:28 - 15:47) And my heart is pounding a little bit faster just as I hear you describe this. And I'd love to get back to your story, but first just to pause and wonder with that mixture of this adventure right in front of you and then your experience of army life, how did God meet you in all of that to reveal your choice of you're able to choose hope or fear?   Stacey Morgan: (15:47 - 22:32) Right. So, you know, when you take the time to step back and think, sometimes you don't see these patterns in your life until you kind of start putting them down on paper. And it was interesting for me to see how God had prepared me for that moment with other moments, especially related to military deployments in the past. Because certainly experiencing a rocket launch and all that fear and kind of this moment of where is my hope found in this moment, that was a varsity level moment.   But I'm so thankful that about ten years earlier God really started to prepare me for that moment with some other big moments. Like when my husband deployed for the first time.   I'll never forget, it was the height of the War on Terror. So, we were living in a military community which was amazing and a lot of my friends' husbands were also serving in the same military units or similar military units and they were deploying. The tempo was high so that meant, you know, six months deployed or longer, coming home for short amounts of time and then deploying again. Lots of action specifically in Afghanistan and Iraq at the time.   And so, lots of fatalities, lots of injuries, lots of grief, and for spouses a lot of fear because we knew what they were doing was very dangerous. And so, for me and my friends we kind of had this unspoken rule which I think a lot of people can understand which was, “Let's just not talk about this scariest thing because somehow talking about it makes it seem more possible.”   And as crazy as that is to say, people get that. You know, there's a lot of things we don't talk about because it's just too scary to think about. And so, for us the scariest thing in our life at that time was the fear that our husbands would not come home, that they would be killed in action. And that felt very real because we were going to memorial services, we were visiting people in the hospital, we were turning on the news and seeing what was going on in the world. And there was often communication blackouts because we knew that they were doing things that were very dangerous, very secretive.   And so, at the time I happily did what everybody else was doing which was, “Let's just not talk about it. Let's just kind of live life managing.” We felt like we were managing this fear, I think that's what I would have said at the time.   But then one day my friend Lisa, who's an amazing friend and she's always like two steps ahead of me on the wisdom scale, we were having coffee on her front porch and she turned to me and she said, “I've been thinking a lot about what life would be like if our husbands were killed.”   And this was like a bomb drop. I mean because we just were not supposed to be talking about this. Like here the rest of us had been avoiding all morbid thoughts about what could possibly happen with our husband and instead she had like turned and looked it straight in the eye.   And I was shocked. And so, I kind of sat up straighter and I said, “What do you mean?”   And she said, “Well, I've been thinking about it and it's not that, you know, life would certainly be hard and doesn't mean we wouldn't need counseling or our kids wouldn't need support, but life would still go on even if that happened. Life would still go on. Life would still be full of good things and God would provide and bring people around us to support us and I've just been thinking about that.”   And I was stunned. I was absolutely stunned because while the rest of us were too afraid to face that fear, in looking at it she kind of exposed it for what it was, which was certainly real and an absolute possibility that that could happen. But when she started walking down the path of like, “Okay, if this happened then what would happen?” You have to decide, “Do I believe God would really be with me or not? Do I believe His promises are true that He will be with me on good days and bad days and that He will draw people to me who will love me and support me? And have I plugged myself into friends and a faith community that would be there for me if that happened?”   And it was a game changer. That was probably one of, at the time, the biggest life-changing conversations I'd ever had as an adult because it really did shift how I viewed feeling afraid about things like that. And so, I had several opportunities... Drew deployed several times and then certainly doesn't take combat deployments to feel afraid like that. I know I have felt it before when my daughter was in the NICU, you know, and I had to leave her in the NICU and go home at night. I know I have felt it during this pandemic several times. I know I'm gonna feel it when I drop my oldest off at college this summer. You know, this moment where it just life feels very scary mainly because of the unknowns that come next and the fact that you have no control over those.   And so, that rocket launch moment was, you know, I felt like God was really prompting me in that moment to say, “Hey, if this rocket explodes like what will you do with that? Do you still trust me that I'm here with you and that I will still bring people to you and love you? Like is your support, is your foundation and your hope truly found in me or is it found in this rocket launch going successfully? Because it might not, and then what does that mean for you?”   And so, it really was this choice of am I gonna choose to live a life of fear, which is our default because if you do not choose something else we will always live a life dictated by fear of something. It's exhausting to live like that because once you conquer one fear another one's gonna pop up. Then they come in bunches and they just start layering on top of each other. Honestly it can lead to despair because there's plenty of things in the world to be afraid of and new ones just pop up every day.   So instead, I felt like God was offering me a new way of living and it really felt tangible in that moment of that rocket launch which is, “Hey, I hope that you will choose to find your hope in me. Just me. The one unchanging thing in this world that will be unchanging regardless of what happens with this rocket launch in 10 seconds. But if it goes well or if it goes poorly I am unchanging. You can rely on me. I will be with you in the best and the worst of times. And even if the rocket launch goes successfully and whatever happens in the next nine months, I'm with you there as well. So, you don't need to be afraid because I'm here with you. You can have hope that I will enable you to do what must be done no matter what happens tomorrow.”   Laura Dugger: (22:32 - 22:49) I'm so grateful that you chose hope and you chose faith. And then after all of that excitement and that adrenaline experienced on launch day, what did your life look like in the months to follow?   Stacey Morgan: (22:49 - 26:47) Yeah, it wasn't easy. You know I joke that those nine months really were like it was like a master class in all these little lessons I've learned throughout the years, but I'd never had to put them into practice at this level and all at the same time.   So, things like being honest about that I needed help. That, you know, there are times in the past where I have certainly wanted people to know or think that I had it all together and that I could do it all by myself especially, you know, I think every mom feels that way.   Certainly, military spouses, we take a lot of pride and feel like I'm doing this on my own.   And I realize now that I had certain seasons I have made life a lot harder for myself because I somehow thought that there was like an extra trophy if I finish the race by myself. I said that it was like, spoiler, there's no trophy. And also, I was just making it harder for myself.   And so, this season I could not fake it. Like past seasons I could fake it. This one I could not fake it. I had two teenagers, two tweens, a lot of hormones and then prepubescent and puberty things flying around. Just a lot of scheduling, a lot of driving, like just life. And then just the stress of living with someone who, you know, a spouse who was living in space and the stress of what does that do to your marriage, to parenting and, you know, parent-child relationships. Just every single piece of running a house, of parenting all the things, was solely on my shoulders and that's a big weight. And it was tough. It was tough.   So, I could not fake it. I had to ask for help. I had to be willing to ask for it and receive it, which are two different skill sets I found. It's sometimes you get good at one and not the other. I had to get really willing to be vulnerable as my friends and say things like, “I'm really lonely.” Can you know, it's like being honest. Like everything's not just, “Oh, this is so exciting. Oh, isn't it so great? Aren't we just so proud of them?” Yes, but at the same time sometimes I'm lonely. Sometimes I'm struggling.   Sometimes in my stress I would overly focus on trying to control my home life or what was happening within my own house and become not as pleasant of a person to live with because I was just trying to kind of regain some control in what felt like a little bit of a chaotic world and then you become not your best self and you know that. And so, I had to learn how to kind of get out of that survival mode and still have fun even when life is hard. And really just kind of accept that life isn't one thing or the other. You can be in a hard season and it still have good things in it. Life can be full of opportunities and challenges and one does not negate the other. And when you try to live your life by one narrative or the other, not only are you faking it but you make life harder than it needs to be and you kind of block other people out of it.   So, there was a lot of learning going on in there but we really all came down to that first decision of how am I gonna live my life in this season? Am I gonna live it fearfully, reactionary, hair trigger, you know, just stress all the time because I'm afraid of what comes next. I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to handle it? Or am I gonna live a life of hope, which is of course like not wishes and dreams but it is anticipation that God will be with me no matter what comes down the pipeline. And sometimes that's divine comfort that is hard to explain but you just feel it. Sometimes it's people he draws to your life who literally will sit on the couch with you and just like hold your hand or give you a hug that moment you need it. Sometimes it's someone offering to carpool or take your kid out driving because they're trying to get their driver's license, you know?   But that's really the biggest thing for me. I talked about it in chapter one of the book because that's the foundation that really all those other lessons were built on.   Laura Dugger: (26:47 - 27:26) And I think also with your book, it was helpful to hear little insights into what it looked like for your marriage. And it was even interesting when you said it's really important for astronauts to have forms of entertainment and that you were so committed to being involved in Drew's life and that you two still found ways to stay connected. I just think that has to be encouraging to any married couples listening right now because you clearly had a big barrier to overcome. But what were some of those ways that the two of you tried as best as you could in that season to stay intimately connected to one another's lives?   Stacey Morgan: (27:26 - 31:19) Yeah, it's not easy. And I think there's kind of this fallacy that is kind of dangerous for especially young married I think to believe which is like in every season of your life you're gonna feel amazingly connected to your spouse and you're gonna constantly be growing in your relationship. And sometimes that's not true. Like sometimes one person has a job that takes them away from home or someone is sick or there are other issues going on in your life where the connection is just not as strong not because you don't want it to be but because the circumstances you find yourself in don't allow for that.   And certainly, while my husband was in space that was a lot of challenges to feeling connected. I mean there's good communication but there's a difference between like quality and quantity, right? So, he could call me on the phone every day but because of the time differences and his schedule the only time he could call me was between 4:00 and 5:00 p.m. my time, which as any person knows and with any kids, is like the worst time of the day. Like everything's happening, the wheels are coming off, homework, pickups, dinner prep, like all that kind of stuff was crazy.   So, needless to say, I was not able to sit down and have like a heartfelt drawn-out conversation. And then kids hate talking on the phone so he wasn't really talking to them during the day. I'm like, you know, my eight-year-old isn't gonna send him an email. So, you know, there wasn't like a lot of quality or quantity conversation with the kids which of course puts a little stress on your marriage too because you worry about that.   And then we have one video chat a month and you want it to be fun. You want it to kind of be good for the kids as well as him but it's a very, you know, it's one hour to share between five people and so that's not a lot of time. And so, the reality is that for that season there was a lot of, I would say, relationship treading water. And you're, you know, the goal is just not to let things go downhill, which you can easily do in life when you and your spouse are experiencing the same event but from different points of view. And that's what we were doing. You know, we were sharing the mission but from two vastly different points of view.   And so, you do your best. But the difference is I think you have to in order to kind of come out on the other end better, you have to have a kind of a mutual commitment that, “Hey, we're going to... we are eventually going to come back together on this. We can't change the circumstances. I can't make the time difference different. I can't give you more time on the phone. I can't... there's things I just cannot change. But we are committed as a team to doing the best we can right now and when this circumstance changes, in this case when he came home, we're gonna kind of back up again and do some story sharing and reconnect about some things that we just didn't have the opportunity to in the past.”   And so, it's a little bit kind of like two steps forward one step back but eventually you still come out ahead if you are committed to trying to come back together and share those experiences in one way or another. Where you run into kind of danger is if people start experiencing two different things and then they never come back together so the gap just kind of keeps widening and widening. And then you hear when people say like, “Yeah, I woke up and I felt like I was living a different life than the person who was sleeping next to me.”   And so, reminding us to ourselves that we are a team even though we were experiencing the same thing. I didn't know a lot about a lot of the things he was doing. He didn't know a lot of stories about how things were for me. And so, it's okay to tell them later if you don't have the ability to tell them in the moment as long as you both have the goodwill and you prioritize coming back together eventually.   Laura Dugger: (31:19 - 34:26) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right. Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University.   Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia. This online self-paced program includes 13 associate's degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees, and two master's programs, including an MBA. College courses are fully transferable both in and out of this program. 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We love producing free content that's available to everyone around the world with our monthly newsletters when you sign up for our email list and with our weekly episodes. We pray that this has been a benefit to you. That if any episode has ever impacted you, what we ask is that you will partner with us now and generously and prayerfully give financially before the end of the year. There's multiple ways to do this. Online at thesavvysauce.com, you can donate through Stripe,  PayPal, or Venmo with just a simple click. Or you can send snail mail to us at Savvy Sauce Charities, P.O. Box 101 Roanoke, Illinois, 61561. We hope you choose to support us today and during this season especially.   It sounds like you really leaned into your friendships. So, what would you say you've learned about community both before and after your experience of launching Drew into space?   Stacey Morgan: (34:26 - 38:07) Well, I tell you what, I realized that as an adult often a lot of us don't really know how to do friendship well. And our culture is so, it so values independence that we often convince ourselves that if we tell our friends or our community that we need help or just kind of show our true heart for how important it is to us, that somehow that's gonna be kind of like devalued or we're gonna feel weak. And I realized like, “Man, I wasted a lot of years trying to be tougher than I really am.” And I wish I could go back and change that because in this season, mainly because I had no choice. And so, God really used this opportunity to show me like, “Hey, I'm gonna kind of like force you to open up your heart, be vulnerable with this small group of really trusted friends and like just trust me to see what happens next.”   And I did and it was a game-changer. I mean, I have a lot of deep feelings but I put a little bit of a tough exterior and I forced myself to be super honest and super vulnerable with my friends and say things like, “I'm lonely or I don't even know what I need but I'm just feeling exhausted or angry or this is really frustrating to me or I need help with this and I don't even know where to begin.” And just let those friends step into my life in a really intimate way.   And you know, I think we've all had a friend at some point who has asked for help and we have been so happy to help them and we've never thought less of them for it. But somehow when it comes to our own time we're like, “Oh, I don't want to trouble anybody. Oh, they're gonna think I can't handle it.” Or like, “Well, this is like I made this bed so I better lie in it. You chose to have all these kids, you chose this career, you chose this whatever, like this is your problem.” But we would never say that about another friend. And so, I don't know why we are harder on ourselves than we are on our friends because it's not right. Most of our friends are happy to help us. They love us helping us, being with us, comforting us, supporting us. That's how they show how important you are to them and we need to let them do that.   I've also gotten better about verbalizing the feelings that I had always felt inside but I felt awkward verbalizing. Like, “Thank you for being my friend.” Or like, “Thank you for just spending this time with me,” or, “You are an important person in my life.” Words that we say to our kids, that we often say to our spouses, but sometimes for me at least felt weird saying to friends and I'm really trying to get better about that. That was a great nine months of practice. It doesn't come easy or natural I think to anybody but it's a game changer. Like why not tell your friends how much they mean to you?   So, community is essential. Like don't try to lone wolf this life. I've certainly had some more extreme experiences than probably the average person, but the principles are the same. Get plugged into community and have multiple circles of community. Certainly, your faith community but also you know if you work, if you go to the gym, if you go to school, like your kids' friends, like there's so many circles of community and don't be afraid to just jump right in and get connected. And you've got to do it before you are in crisis. You've got to kind of invest in these friendships so that you know them and can trust these friends so that when those seasons come that are hard you have this small group of people who you can rely on. It will be a complete game changer in your life when you have a small, could be one person, can be two people, trusted people who can journey with you.   Laura Dugger: (38:07 - 38:34) I could not agree more. I really think that friendship is one of the most precious gifts were given in this life. And going back to your marriage we had discussed that time of separation but then there was a whole other season of transition as well. So, what was it like to come back together after being apart for nearly 10 months?   Stacey Morgan: (38:34 - 42:55) Yeah, so it's funny there's always these Hollywood romanticized versions of what reunions must look like whether that's a military deployment reunion or you know when an astronaut comes home. And I think people assume it's some kind of like hot sexy romantic can't keep hands off of you but the reality is far different, right? Because it's... I mean maybe it is, maybe that's how it is for some people. I will just say for us, you know, when you've been living an independent life for however long, whether that was you know a six-month or an eight-month deployment or a nine-month deployment to outer space, you know I was living my own life fully independent for that long where I made all the choices. I didn't have anybody looking over my shoulder or you know there's a little bit of independent freedom there when you're the only one kind of making the big decisions.   And so, when that person comes back into your life, which you want them to come back, you're happy they're home, but there is this awkward transition period. It's definitely an opportunity for some tension because now there's another opinion back in the mix, right?   Like I had to kind of adjust my way of doing life for another person who had a valid opinion, another decision maker. The kids had to adjust to having another parent back in the house. You're kind of getting to know each other so there is a little bit of a sniffing out period where you're like, “Hey, nice to meet you.” Because we all change. You know you could be gone from someone for a month, you know, you're not the same person you were today as you were last year or six months ago or maybe even a month ago. So, anytime someone comes back in your life they're different, you're a little different. You're like my friendships had shifted over those ten months, like my work had shifted, everything in my life had moved on and he had not been there in the house with me to experience that so there was... it was a whole new set of experiences and a new person to get to know again.   Now he came home and what made it a little bit more dramatic was that Drew came home in the startup of the pandemic. He came home in April of 2020 which at the time I think we weren't sure, “Are we going up? Are we coming down?” We know now looking back we realize things were just ramping up; the world was, we were all still very confused about what's the best thing to do can we all the things you know. So, NASA pretty much brought him home and then he came home to our house after just a few days in kind of the quarantine facility there on Johnson Space Center. But then he came back to our house and then it's like he never left because all of the normal stuff that would happen when you come home from space like travel and meetings and all these kind of things were all canceled or postponed.   And so, instead of kind of like getting to know each other slowly it was like zero to sixty. I mean he was home and he didn't go anywhere, none of us could go anywhere. So, we joke that the irony that he was in space with five professional crew mates in a small space and then he came home to live in our small space with five amateur crew mates who are certainly not nearly as gracious or accommodating or helpful as the professional astronaut and cosmonaut crew mates he had. The irony is not lost on us. So, he came home I don't think we've ever spent that amount of time together you know 24/7 in the same house with all four of our kids, no school, nowhere to go because everything's closed. And so yeah we're getting to know each other in this kind of Petri dish of new experiences as the world is also kind of like upside down and everything's unusual.   So, in the end it was okay. I joke like we did a lot of “I was like let me go do this puzzle I just need some alone time” or “I'm going for a walk around the neighborhood please don't text me. I'll be back when I'll be back I just need a few minutes to myself.” I think everybody has had that moment in the during the last two years where you're just like, “I just need a few minutes alone please,” you know in my if you've been trapped in your house with somebody who you're not normally with 24/7.   Laura Dugger: (42:56 - 43:17) Well sure and with your experience, mental health is very important for the family of the astronaut and the astronaut themselves. Wasn't it your psychologist who is saying typically when you come back and enter this time of reentry and reuniting you do little bit by little bit because that tends to be wiser?   Stacey Morgan: (43:17 - 45:22) Yes, that's right. They call it titrating a return. That's a principle they have in the military as well which is they would normally come back from a deployment for at least the first couple weeks back from a long trip away they would go to work every day for several hours because it's you know psychologically difficult for two people who have been living very independent lives to come back together just with like zero transition. The military has learned this over the last 20 years you know that you could go from a combat zone to mowing your lawn in 24 hours. That's stressful especially if you add in you know marriage baggage, kids you know nagging kids or issues like that, financial struggles, that's a kind of what can be a breeding ground for some really difficult situation. So, it's best to let people get to know each other again a little bit at a time.   Like you said the normal return from space was kind of the same thing. It would be come home and then you'd have some physical therapy, you'd have these different meetings and it would be a little bit like going to work for several weeks while they're getting their body and everything back to normal. Then, you kind of could have this kind of extended time at home but it gave both people the ability to kind of like reintroduce themselves to each other in bits and pieces and just kind of ease into it. But we did not have that luxury so we kind of had to create it ourselves. And I am glad again that we had those past experiences to know where the potential minefields were. If you were not prepared you could be very disappointed if you went into it thinking, “Oh, they're gonna come home, it's gonna be like romantic. We're gonna be like together and loving it all the time and just connecting so deeply. It's gonna be amazing.” And then the first time that your spouse is like, “Why are you emptying the dishwasher like that?” It's important to know like, “Yeah, if there is going to be tension it is going to be awkward. That's okay that is part of the normal cycle and it's gonna be okay.” But I'm glad that we had that knowledge beforehand because it could be tough.   Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 46:07) Well and Stacey another reason that I really appreciate you being willing to let us enter your story with you. When we have different careers or we have someone in the military and a civilian who's not involved, there's so much room for assumptions and maybe not always assuming the best. There's opportunity for miscommunication so I'm just wondering about the person who's hearing this and what if they're thinking, “Well that sounds irresponsible or even selfish of Drew to choose this path if he's a husband and father.” So, how would you offer that kind of person another perspective that they might be missing?   Stacey Morgan: (46:07 - 48:20) I mean I would say is when it comes to astronauts for sure, you know, these are not like hot-rodding thrill-seeking people. In fact, I would say I think a lot of people make the assumption that people who do some of these higher like physically higher risky jobs must be like thrill-seeking you know just thrown caution to the wind about everything in their life. Actually, nothing could be farther from the truth. I think you would find that we certainly and I would you know I think a lot of people in the same career field are similar and that we are good risk calculators. And that like policemen, like firemen, like military personnel you know it's an act of service to be in this job. These are not just like you know space tourists or billionaires getting on a rocket for fun. These are professionals who have chosen a career field of service and whether that is as a policeman, a fireman, a service to the nation, service to humanity, service to their community and they all play a part in that.   I think most people recognize that that it is you know there's something to be said for the person who chooses a career that has a level of risk because they feel called to it and because thank God for people who will take on risk and are willing to potentially sacrifice themselves for someone else. I mean I think it's kind of a higher calling which is why in general in our culture we honor them and rightfully so. It is risky, it's very risky. They certainly don't do it for the money. I don't think anybody in any kind of government service would say that they're doing it for the money, that's for sure. You know they're doing it because they feel called to something bigger than themselves and to serve their fellow man in some way. That's certainly I know how we feel as a family that his choosing to transition as an Army physician into being still in the Army but serving in this capacity was just the next level up. The way he could serve our community, our country, our nation and all of humanity and he really is its service first. It's the opposite of selfish; it is selfless service really.   Laura Dugger: (48:20 - 48:55) Mm-hmm thank you for that. I just say amen to everything you just said. Really it's service from your entire family that requires a sacrifice from each of you like you said for the greater good. And I think something else that you pointed out so well in your book was that having this value more so of security or not living into this calling that you said this calling was put upon your lives that could actually be idolatry if you're starting to place a higher value on security or anything else other than God and so I think you model that well.   Stacey Morgan: (48:55 - 51:13) Thank you. Yeah I think a lot of people you know sometimes these idols creep up on us we don't realize that we have put something on a pedestal until it gets threatened to be taken away from us and all of a sudden our reaction is over the top because we're you know you realize, “Gosh, I'm finding my security in this thing I'm finding my identity in this thing whether this thing is a job, another person, a political party, a scientific breakthrough whatever it is.” Right? Like and I think a lot of people, I certainly felt it you know in that launch moment like, “Am I finding my identity in being married to this person or him having this job or this launch being successful? Because if I am in about 10 seconds my world may crumble because if that could all be taken away from me.” And in that yeah I think we all kind of have probably had a moment especially in the last two years where for a lot of people something that they have built their life on has been either taken away from them or has it has been threatened to be taken away because of the pandemic a job a person in their life you know a relationship your kids going off to school every day I mean whatever it is that you've built in your life and you have put on this pedestal and you kind of made without even realizing it have started to place more hope in those things remaining unchanged than you have in God. And all of a sudden when those things are threatened you have this over-the-top emotionally fearful response that's kind of an indicator I think to all of us like when we have that is like, “Whoo my fear and my response should tell me that I seem to be very very afraid that this is going to be taken away from me because I am putting too much hope in it. Instead, I should be taking that and putting it back where it belongs. I should reprioritize where I am finding my hope and the only unchanging thing that we can build our foundation on is God. Everything else, every person, everything, every job, every whatever it is can and could possibly be taken away from you and on your deathbed will be.” So, you know you can't help but have a little bit of self-reflection there.   Laura Dugger: (51:13 - 51:23) Well and then for all of us how do you recommend that we all can rediscover our fun side when we've been trapped in survival mode for too long?   Stacey Morgan: (51:23 - 56:05) This is a great question because I think all of us have felt this definitely in the pandemic. You know this part in your life where everything in the world feels very chaotic and so you try to regain some control in your own life by maybe regimenting your kids a little more, cleaning your house a little more, you know, controlling things at work or whatever your environment is. And without really realizing it you become this just like survival mode like your day just becomes about making things easier for yourself, streamlining things, making things just go go go. And you wake up one day and you were like, “I'm exhausted. Like why am I so tired? Why am I why do I have like no joy? Why do I just feel unhappy?” And you realize that you have not done anything other than just be like surviving and cleaning and doing work or whatever it is like you have just been doing the basics with no fun whatsoever.   So I have been there I hit that a bunch of times in the pandemic, but I certainly hit it when Drew was in space because it's really hard being a single parent and managing all of the emotional burdens and the logistics of it. And I realized that I was cleaning a lot I was kind of getting a little bit more trigger angry with kids or people who you know were making me upset because when you're in survival mode it's all about just like “Get out of my way let me do what I want to do,” it's about getting things done quickly and other people become an annoyance instead of a joy in your life.   So it's all about going back to something that that fills you up and it can be something really frivolous it can be something like it's very it's 100% unique to you and so I can't tell you what that thing is but I would say the first step in kind of getting yourself out of survival mode and kind of getting back to your your whole self is asking yourself the question like, “What do I enjoy?” Not for its educational value, not for its good cardio exercise or and not what your kids enjoy, not what is Instagram worthy, or anything like in your soul what fills you up? Is it reading? Is it watching movies? Is it riding bikes? Is it roller skating? Is it you know eating Mexican food? Like what is it that you enjoy doing that when you do it you just feel like more of yourself?   And then just go do it tomorrow. Like it's gonna take prioritizing time probably some money but that is as much of a part of who you are how God created you. He didn't make you this like worker bot or like just a mom or just a wife or just a daughter or a sister like He made you a whole person and a huge part of who you are are these things that you enjoy. And you cannot continue to pour into other people or work or your community if you are never getting filled up yourself. You will just dry out, you will be burnt out, you'll be unhappy and you'll actually be worse in all these other areas where you were trying to work hard because you're just gonna be like a shell of yourself.   So, for me it was prioritizing time with friends. It was... I got this crazy flyer on my front door for roller skating lessons and I had this fantasy of being a really good roller skater that stemmed from like when I was eight and so I signed my girls and I up for roller skating lessons which was hilarious and very humbling but it was just silly. It took time, we had to prioritize the time on every Saturday it took money, but it was just fun. It had no educational value my kids will look back on it and be like, “What was that all about? I don't even know.” But it was great because even in the midst of a stressful season like that was a very stressful season, undeniable, but as part of that narrative it will not only be like, “Yeah it was really tough when my dad was away and you know my mom had to like single-parent us but that was also the season where my mom took us to roller skating lessons. Isn't that weird? That was so weird.” And we'll laugh about it.   And so, it's just about finding something that you want to do and then just unapologetically spend the money, spend the time, and invite a friend to do it with you again. Doing something with a friend is always more fun than doing something alone. Don't feel like you have to justify it or explain it to everyone you don't need to take pictures to post online you don't need to tell it just just go do it and have a good time. It's amazing how when you do that suddenly like those dust bunnies or that email that had a weird tone that you got don't annoy you as much as they used to because your kind of like finding your whole self again.   Laura Dugger: (56:05 - 56:27) That's helpful to remember to live life to the fullest and be ready for the next adventure that life's gonna throw at us. Yeah. And just as a bonus can we just ask what are some of the most common questions that you and Drew answer about space?   Stacey Morgan: (56:27 - 57:25) That's a good question. A lot of like personal hygiene questions about teeth brushing toilets how do you know take showers or whatever and of course the answer is they don't take showers. But and then of course a lot of people want to know, “Hey I've always been interested in becoming an astronaut how does somebody do that?”   And there are so many resources online people you know I say, “Look go online read all about it. There's amazing videos NASA puts out an incredible amount of resources that you can read up on but at the end of the day do what you are most passionate about because the likelihood that you, or your nephew, or your cousin, or your co-worker, your son, or, whoever it is that you know is convinced they want to be an astronaut the likelihood of them being an astronaut is very low. So you should do what just fills you up do a career and a life that you are passionate about and if God calls you to that path those doors will open but if He doesn't you'll still be living a life fully within God's purpose for you.”   Laura Dugger: (57:25 - 57:39) And Stacey you're such an incredible communicator both in this interview time together but also really enjoyed your book. And so, if people want to follow you to hear what you're up to next, where would you direct them online?   Stacey Morgan: (57:39 - 58:41) Sure well they can go to my website StaceyMorgan2000. That's like Stacey Morgan two zero zero zero dot com. That has my blog that has links to a different podcast like this that I've been on and they can check that out. They can find me on Instagram same handle StaceyMorgan2000.   And you know if people want to reach out, I love when people have been sending me messages lately after they've read the book it's been so awesome. You know I tell people like I certainly didn't write this book for the money I'm actually donating all my book proceeds to charities that support military families. So, I've been joking like, “Hey read the book if you don't like it the worst that happened is you donated to a military charity. If you do like it buy ten copies and give one to all your friends. But if you do like it I love it when people send me messages and just tell me kind of like what resonated and how it spoke to them.” That's just been one of the I would say the coolest aspect of completing this project was kind of putting it out there and then getting to see how God uses it in people's lives.   Laura Dugger: (58:41 - 59:02) There were so many things that resonated but off the top of my head if anybody has a copy of the book they'll have to turn to the part about baloney on sale friends. And Stacey you may know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge and so as my final question for you today what is your savvy sauce?   Stacey Morgan: (59:02 - 1:01:08) Well I'll piggyback off your baloney is on sale friends' reference and that would be: pick up the phone and text your friend. We didn't need a study to show us this because I think most of us have just known this in our soul but there is an endemic of loneliness in the world right now as you know we've got all these ways to connect and yet people feel more disconnected. They feel more lonely especially women and what I learned through my own kind of relationship struggles over the years is that everyone's waiting for someone else to go first. That you in that moment you feel like you're the only person who's feeling lonely and alone and that everybody else is in these friend circles and you're just somehow on the outside. But the reality is that pretty much everybody feels the same way you do and everybody's sitting at home wishing someone would just text them and invite them to coffee.   So that's my practical tip is don't wait, go first be the bold friend or even acquaintance like it doesn't have to be someone that you are super besties with. But those baloney is on sale friends like I said you have to read the book and understand that that is like a special category of friendship that's the kind of friendship that our soul longs for but those things don't appear or like pop out of the ground. That kind of friend doesn't just show up it's developed over time it's invested in and cared for and loved and it starts with literally a text to go get coffee. That's how every great friendship story begins. So, if that's you, if you feel like yeah I don't have this close friend who I can do something with I'm lonely. Okay take that first step be the one who picks up the phone send that text message to the woman from church, or the woman from the gym, or that friend you haven't talked to in a while and just invite them over for coffee. Nothing fancy nothing crazy no agenda just come over for a couple hours for coffee. Every single person I know who does this no one ever regrets inviting a friend over for coffee. That's the first step that we can all take into just feeling more connected and having those kind of friends that we want.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:08 - 1:01:31) Love it. Well Stacy your book definitely changed my perspective on risk and I was so hooked on all the stories that you shared so I believe that your book is truly a gift to anyone who chooses to read it and your faith is very inspiring so thank you for sharing your journey with us and thank you for being my guest.   Stacey Morgan: (1:01:31 – 1:01:33) Well, thank you it's been great.   Laura Dugger: (1:01:33 – 1:05:16) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it

277. Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith   *DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults.   1 John 1:9 AMP "If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just [true to His own nature and promises], and will forgive our sins and cleanse us continually from all unrighteousness [our wrongdoing, everything not in conformity with His will and purpose].”   *Transcription Below*   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company   Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith are clinicians, speakers, and authors with over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Their mission is to help couples navigate the complexities of relational challenges, particularly in the aftermath of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, fostering deep restoration and growth.   Matthew is a Professional Certified Coach (ICF) with a background in pastoral leadership, while Joanna is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, EMDR practitioner, and Certified Clinical Partner Specialist through APSATS. Both hold Master of Divinity degrees and have served together on multiple church leadership teams. Currently, they co-lead their private practice, The Raabsmith Team, where they specialize in helping couples rebuild connection, trust, and intimacy.   Their passion for this work stems from their own journey of restoration. After experiencing the devastating effects of sexual addiction and betrayal in their marriage, Matthew and Joanna embarked on a years-long pursuit of reconciliation. This transformative experience led to the creation of tools like The Intimacy Pyramid™, a practical model for relational restoration and growth co-created with colleague Dan Drake.    Their first book, Building True Intimacy (2023), has sold over 1,000 copies and provides practical guidance for couples to use the Intimacy Pyramid to create enduring connections. They also founded Renewing Us Recovery™, a comprehensive program designed to support couples in the later stages of relational restoration. In November 2025, they will host the inaugural Renewing Us Couples Retreat, offering workshops and connection opportunities for couples on similar paths of recovery and growth.   Matthew and Joanna live in Memphis, Tennessee with their three young children. They prioritize self-care through shared adventures, new experiences, and a weekly game of pickleball.   Free Resource Mentioned in Episode   Building True Intimacy book   Questions and Topics Discussed: What were the warning signs that you noticed when you were newlyweds that tipped you off to believing things weren't quite as they seemed? Are there any common life circumstances, whether nature or nurture, that predispose someone to be more likely to struggle with a sexual addiction? As couples seek to thrive in marriage, will you give us an overview of the intimacy pyramid you wrote a book about?   Other Episodes Mentioned During Episode: Pornography: Protecting Children, Personal Healing, Recovery, and Victory in Christ with Sam Black Pornography Addiction and Helpful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day   Additional Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder Stories Series: Recovery From Sexual Sin in Marriage with Garrett and Brenna Naufel Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner Special Patreon Re-Release Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:12)   Laura Dugger: (0:13 - 1:38) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.   Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com, or connect with them on Facebook.   Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith are my guests today. They are clinicians, speakers, and authors with over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Our conversation takes a few turns, from getting to hear their incredible and vulnerable story of healing and then getting tips for talking to our children about topics like sex, and also even receiving some practical wisdom and tips for enhancing our own marital enjoyment.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Matthew and Joanna.   Matthew Raabsmith: (1:39 - 1:40) So good to be here.   Joanna Raabsmith: (1:40 - 1:42) So glad to be here. Thanks for having us.   Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 1:51) Oh, truly my pleasure. And let's just start here. Can you share your story going back to meeting and falling in love and your first part of marriage?   Matthew Raabsmith: (1:53 - 2:17) Sure, yeah. It was a little bumpy at first, actually. So, I knew Joanna through her brother. Joanna's brother was one of my best friends, and I got to meet her whenever she would come in town and visit, and she would invade guy night. He would usually bring her along to like a Lord of the Rings movie or something, and I would be a little frustrated because I would be like, oh, you brought your sister. Great. That's wonderful.   Joanna Raabsmith: (2:18 - 2:24) A little off-putting, not super friendly. And I was like, your friend's kind of a jerk. We did not like each other at all in the beginning.   Matthew Raabsmith: (2:24 - 2:54) Not big fans. And eventually over some time, we started to realize we had a lot in common. We liked to do a lot of the same things.   And one summer that Joanna was in town, we started hanging out, started doing more and more together, and really just kind of developed a friendship, which was really fun. And at the very end of the summer, realized that there was something between us. And so, we went on one date.   Our first date, we entered a golf tournament. We won it, and that was a good sign.   Joanna Raabsmith: (2:54 - 2:55) That's a pretty good sign.   Matthew Raabsmith: (2:55 - 3:02) And we went on three more dates over the course of two months and got engaged.   Joanna Raabsmith: (3:03 - 3:07) And then two months after that, we got married.   Matthew Raabsmith: (3:07 - 3:16) Yeah. So, her brother went from like, yeah, it's cool you date my sister, to like, you're not ready to get married. But he's come around now.   Joanna Raabsmith: (3:17 - 3:19) 15 years later. Yeah.   Matthew Raabsmith: (3:19 - 3:40) And, you know, a lot of it was, I think we had a definite sense of being kind of called together, being, you know, something special about who we were as a couple. And also, a recognition that we wanted to figure out what a good marriage looked like. We were really excited about marriage, but we didn't really know what we were doing.   Joanna Raabsmith: (3:41 - 4:15) Yeah, I've had a really great model of healthy relationship. My parents have a wonderful marriage. They work really well as a team.   And so, I knew, like, I want something like that. But as soon as we got married, we realized, but how do you actually build that? There's no, like, instruction manual for, okay, here are the things to do to have a great relationship.   And so, we read books. We went to conferences. You know, we did what we could, but we still found ourselves getting stuck, not able to really create, like, that deep sense of, like, connection intimacy that we really wanted.   Matthew Raabsmith: (4:15 - 5:17) And we started kind of hunting more and more for resources. We found some incredible resources that really changed our understanding of the way relationships work, the way people work, and really, for us, shifted our entire focus of kind of what we wanted to do, even with our life. And as we started to do that, though, we still kind of found ourselves at this kind of glass wall.   We felt like no matter what we tried, there was always this kind of distance between us. And that started to grow kind of over the years that we were together. It wasn't getting better.   It was actually kind of getting worse and worse and worse. And so, Joanna had actually decided to, after we finished our first grad degree together, the idea was we were going to go be pastors. And so, we had finished our kind of theological training.   Joanna decided she wanted to get a master's in marriage and family therapy so we could do some work around marriages and ministry in that way. And her very first-class kind of just set our life in a completely different direction.   Joanna Raabsmith: (5:17 - 6:26) Yes. So, my first class in the MFT program was a two-week intensive called Shame and Guilt. So, that's a really fun two-week intensive to be a part of. And as a part of that, though, they had an anonymous pastor come and share his testimony of struggling with sex addiction, becoming sober, getting into good recovery, healing and restoration in his marriage, kind of like that whole journey. And as he was talking, something inside of me started stirring. And I knew, OK, what he's saying is resonating way too much with me right now.   I think this is the thing. This is what is keeping us stuck, not able to really create the relationship we want. And so, that day I went home and first I just kind of started talking about my class, what I learned, what this pastor had shared.   Right. And nothing. Right.   We're just kind of talking generally about it. And so, finally I couldn't do it anymore. And I just stopped and I looked him square in the eyes and I said, “Are you struggling with this in our marriage right now?”   Matthew Raabsmith: (6:26 - 8:03) Yeah. And for the first time in my life, 20 years, I had been struggling with pornography, sexual addiction, and acting out in our marriage. And for the first time in my life, I was honest.   I had lied for years, both with Joanna and everyone else. And the kind of floodgates just kind of opened up. And I finally said yes.   And it was really hearing the story, I think, is what did it for me. I think it was knowing that somebody else had made it, that their life hadn't come crashing down because that was the greatest fear for me. That the moment anyone found this out, everything in my life would be over. Everything that I loved would be gone.   And so, this kind of story of hope gave me a little bit of courage that day, to be honest. But that started a really long journey for us because there was a lot of damage that was done in both of my hiding. And now kind of this revelation, all the pain kind of came crashing down on Joanna and kind of her shoulders.   And so, we started a quite intensive recovery process. We talked about it being kind of a full-time job. I went to recovery for my addiction and for kind of my acting out behaviors. Joanna had to begin a process of healing from the trauma of this discovery. And that process took us a number of years. It really was a long kind of arduous journey, but one that we ultimately survived and now thrive in our marriage and get the incredible luxury and the kind of gift of helping other couples do that.   So, that's kind of where we find ourselves.   Laura Dugger: (8:04 - 8:30) That is incredible. I just really appreciate you sharing your story. Clearly, stories are so powerful and that's what led to some healing for you and hopefully can open the floodgates for somebody else listening.   So, if we go back in your story, then, Joanna, I'd love to start with you. What were some of those red flags in early marriage that things aren't quite as they seem?   Joanna Raabsmith: (8:31 - 10:28) Yeah, there are a few. You know, I think that, you know, one of the pieces we kind of talked about, like, OK, we knew we're still getting stuck because there's 90 percent that felt really good. But then 10 percent that was extremely chaotic, really destructive.   Right. We would get we call the pain cycles when we get emotionally dysregulated. And there would be some things that, right.   Sometimes we would get into pain cycles, get dysregulated. And I kind of understand why. Right.   Like something happened. There was the disagreement. But other times I couldn't put my finger on it.   Right. Matthew would just get really angry and really shut down. And I wouldn't be able to connect it to anything that had happened in our life.   And so, it was very confusing. It was really hard to understand what was going on. And I think kind of in the same way, when I would pull too close into that connection, that intimacy, he would pull back.   Right. And it felt like even though we both named this goal and this desire, he would never actually partner with me in it. And so, again, that was really confusing because the actions were not matching up with reality and what was happening.   And I think the other piece that was kind of true for us and true for a lot of other people is that our own sexual relationship was fraught with pain. And so, there was, again, a lot that was really good, but also a lot that was really painful and confusing. And some of the pieces just didn't connect.   Right. And I would wonder, OK, what's going on? Well, I guess this is just the reality that like this is how much we get to expect in this area of our life, right.   In our relationship. And so, it was when the pastor started describing his life and addiction and what that looked like emotionally, sexually, relationally. I was like, oh, those are all the things that I'm currently experiencing.   Here's one thing that would answer all those questions that I have. And so, I think that was part of it. He kind of told me, like, OK, this is it.   Laura Dugger: (10:28 - 11:00) That would be so eye opening. And my heart's going out to the couple who is maybe starting to identify with this. Was it and share whatever you're comfortable with from your story or the person's story who opened things up to you?   So, sexually, I'm wondering if it was for you, Joanna, if you were hoping to connect sexually and that wasn't happening and that was confusing. You didn't feel pursued. But I don't want to fill in the blanks.   So, could you elaborate?   Joanna Raabsmith: (11:00 - 12:03) Absolutely. Yeah. And we find it a lot of different ways than couples that we work with.   Right. And so, it can be sometimes on either side of the extreme. And so, for us, it was where there would be kind of times when he'd be fully present and interested and engaged. Right. And then all of a sudden, kind of like I described emotionally, he would just withdraw and not be there. And I would reach out to connect.   And that was this like non-response. And which, again, didn't match up with those other times when he was engaged and wanting to connect. And he would give some sort of excuse that didn't totally make sense.   Right. But I was kind of like, what else? What was I left with except that?   So, I would kind of believe that and go with it, even though it didn't sit right. And so, yeah, I think that was part of it. We will see on the other side for some other couples.   It's the opposite. And maybe that spouse is hypersexual in the relationship. Right.   To the point where there might be pressure, even pressure to do things sexually that people aren't comfortable with. And so, yeah, it can look a lot of different ways. But that was kind of what our disconnect looked like.   Laura Dugger: (12:04 - 12:33) That's so helpful. And there's two different directions I want to go, Matthew. So, I'll set it up.   I guess I'm thinking of the guilt and shame and how those are usually so present. So, I have two questions. Were you when Joanna came to you, were you at a point where you recognize something was off and you wanted freedom from this and or had tried freedom before?   Let's start with that and then I'll go into the other one.   Matthew Raabsmith: (12:34 - 14:40) Yeah, it really was holy timing in a lot of ways. I, you know, for a lot of years I had I hated what I did. I didn't feel like I could stop it, but didn't have a lot of interest in kind of doing anything to stop it.   I kind of just like would just say, “OK, this is going to be the last time.” And then, you know, of course it would come back. But I think at this point I had really started to see the damage that was happening to our relationship.   I could feel us growing close, growing further apart. I could see kind of Joanna and the confusion that she was having. And like she couldn't understand things.   She would ask me a lot of questions that I didn't have answers to. And so, I actually a couple of months earlier, we were at a worship service, and they had said like, “hey, if you are ready to give something up, if you feel like there's something holding you back, come forward and confess it.” And Joanna and I were sitting next to each other, and I remember feeling like the Holy Spirit just like pulling me to like get up out of my seat and I wouldn't move.   I was like, no, because she's going to ask me what I went down for. I'm going there's you know, there's a random kind of prayer partner at the front. I'm like, I'm not going and confessing this to some random person.   And so, I was ready. But I think like I said, I think there was no path forward. It was kind of confess this and everything stops and ends.   But everything like marriage ends, life ends. And so, when she when she brought this, it really did feel like God had kind of been answering a prayer that I've been praying of like, if you give me a way out, I'll take it. I'm desperate.   I want it to stop. And it felt like that. I think it was both this kind of terror and this hope that day.   And even when I said, yes, it was a little bit like, what have I done? Like, could this have been different? Should I have just gone and told someone else privately?   Right. But I think ultimately that it was out between the two of us and that we kind of knew it. We knew what we were dealing with made a huge difference.   But I mean, God had been working in my life, offering opportunities for so long. I just been saying no, no, no. And then finally, you know, I think my heart just broke and it was like, yes, OK, I'm ready for this.   Laura Dugger: (14:40 - 15:14) I love how the Holy Spirit equipped you with that humility and courage to be brave in that moment. And it's such a blessing for all of us to get to see the end or I guess not the end of the story, but you at this point in your story where you're thriving. And so, I hope that offers a lot of hope to people listening.   But let's also pause. And so, going back further in time, Matthew, this was the other part of my question. What was life and attachment and your growing up journey like?   Matthew Raabsmith: (15:15 - 18:09) Yeah, I didn't know that at the time. Right. I a lot of this I figured out in the last couple of years of recovery.   You know, if you would have asked me, you know, as I was growing up about my life, I would have told you I had the perfect family. I had the perfect life. I think I did not realize that some of the things that I was going through weren't perfect, were harder.   And part of that was because I think the way my family dynamic worked was we just swept everything under the rug. You know, whatever happened, we just kind of went, OK, and moved on from. And I learned to do that as a kid.   And that meant a lot of emotional chaos. There was a lot of physical chaos and kind of volatility in our house growing up. And even though I had parents who are still married to this day, have stayed together and have tried to create kind of a stable life.   There was a lot of emotional and kind of relational instability. We moved around a lot. And then once we started moving, I found myself more and more kind of isolated at school. I started dealing with bullying and some things that really kind of left me not knowing how to deal with the pain that I was going through. And so, my way of stuffing things under the rug was getting, you know, escaping, you know, kind of escaping into anything that I could. I watched a lot of TV.   I was a latchkey kid, so I would come home. I'd watch TV a lot in the afternoon and then TV kind of just turned to more and more. And I was exposed pretty young to pornography, actually at a church camp.   I was at a summer church camp. Someone brought a Playboy magazine, and I was exposed to pornography. And I kind of felt that high, that rush.   And that just became kind of a mode of my escape. Right. Of whatever I could do to engage sexually, whether with my mind or with others.   That's how I could get out of the pain I was in. That's how I could stop feeling kind of the chaos that I was having and not realizing that it was becoming this kind of adaptive habit, that it would just be this thing I would go back to more and more. And I grew up at a time that technology was still emerging.   So, I can remember when we got our first computer and no one was talking about safeguards or anything. And so, it was just kind of exposure. Here you go.   Here's everything you could ever want and don't need. And that really became my life. And the more and more that I did, the better and better I got at lying and hiding and even being kind of vulnerable in kind of fake ways.   I would mention things like, yeah, we all have this struggle. And even Joanna, I had told like, you know, that was a struggle of mine in the past, but I've moved on from it. Right.   I told myself and other people just kind of lie after lie after lie so that I could have really this double life. I could appear one way and then I could be acting a completely different way, kind of in the dark.   Laura Dugger: (18:10 - 20:41) Yeah. And that makes sense. I'm thinking back to two episodes.   We did one with a male, Sam Black from Covenant Eyes, and he speaks so much of the origins of pornography and that foothold that Satan gets. And so many times it is in childhood, unwittingly you're exposed and then what it can turn into. And then Crystal Renaud Day came on to share a lot of females struggle with this as well.   And so, I'll link to those if those are a help.   And now a brief message from our sponsor. 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For me, I had to figure out what had really gone on in my life and what was really happening.   Because, like I said, I had become such an expert at hiding from myself and others that I didn't really know how to live any other way. And so, I, you know, Joanna kind of handed me a list of everything this pastor had done. She was like, here you go.   Right. She kind of handed me that list and was like, good luck. And so, I dove in.   I went to a men's intensive. And I think that was probably one of the key places for me to tell my story for the first time. I really took a look at my life and had some people help me take a look and recognize the trauma that I had as a kid exposure that I had experienced and what that really meant to me and helped me understand what I was doing.   But also, kind of what I was doing to myself, how I was really kind of killing myself from the inside out and preventing myself from having the kind of relationship I wanted with God and other people. And so, that discovery was in really ways kind of invigorating for me. I felt like I was living for the first time.   I think I had started to kind of get out of this kind of burden, this fear of always being caught. I told Joanna kind of the history of everything that had happened in my life and our relationship. And so, I was feeling this kind of renewed sense of like energy and excitement of like, this is good.   I want this life. I want the life there that I'm not in constant kind of fear and in constant kind of connection to this thing I hate. And so, which is really different than what Joanna was experiencing.   Joanna Raabsmith: (22:30 - 25:07) Yeah. So, for me, it was very jarring in the beginning. Everything I thought was real came crashing down around me.   And that was especially jarring because I had left kind of the direction, the path that I was on. Right. We talked about our story earlier.   It included two months of dating, two months of engagement before we got married. And that also included me dropping out of law school, getting married and moving to California to pursue a ministry degree so we could work as pastors together or do something together. And so, in that moment, all of that came crashing down.   And I kind of was very lost, not just in our relationship, but in kind of what in the world am I even doing here? What am I going to do moving forward if he doesn't choose recovery? Right.   And so, just all of those question marks, all in that one moment of him answering that question affirmative. And so, so there was like that heaviness on one side and then on the other side was this relief of finally everything I've been experiencing makes sense. Right. Finally, I feel like I actually know what's going on. And because of that, there could maybe be a path forward for us as well. So, is this very, very weird dichotomy in that moment? And so, but I think I knew right away, like, I can't be vulnerable. I can't be intimate with him anymore. Right.   I have to step back in our relationship and wait and see what he chooses to do. Is he going to choose to do the work of recovery and get healthy and start to be honest and safe or not? And so, that's so we kind of did kind of there's some space for a very long period of time while we focused on our own individual recoveries.   And that, again, was a little bumpy for me. This is over a decade ago. And so, there is very little information about what partners experience.   We call it betrayal trauma, and that just wasn't a very common word at the time. And so, some of the resources I plugged into came from a more we would call it codependent, co-addict focus, which just really didn't fit. So, I struggled to find resources that felt like they fit for my journey.   But once I did, it all again, my own healing process started to make sense. And it was so like freeing and liberating to understand. Like, oh, OK, this is what I'm going through. This is why I feel this way.   This is what it looks like to heal and move forward. And so, kind of beginning that process was so important because then when Matthew was kind of in a healthy, safe place, I was as well, and we can start to step in towards each other on that kind of more couples' journey at that point.   Laura Dugger: (25:07 - 25:17) I love how you did that wisely, though, separate first, not rushing into couples at that time. Absolutely.   Matthew Raabsmith: (25:18 - 26:33) Appreciate you calling it wise. I think we were terrified. Yeah, we'll take God's help.   I think he was like, you guys just work on your own stuff for a while. And in some ways, like I said, it was we didn't know what we were doing. But I think we knew we wanted there to be a future between the two of us.   But we knew it had to be completely different in some ways than what we had before, which was scary because we liked what we had before. Like we had a really great marriage in many ways. Right.   There was this portion of it, this hidden portion that was really infecting and killing it all. But what we did have together, we didn't want to totally lose. It just was really hard to know, especially early on, what's going to come forward.   Like, who are we still going to be as we go forward? Are we still going to be a couple who does things together? Right. Who works together? Or is that all kind of going to have to be different? Is that the only way that we have kind of moving forward?   And so, that was that was probably the hardest part was having like this sense of like not wanting to lose us. We were like, if we lost that, that was going to be miserable. And I think a lot of our work was about how do we eventually reclaim this marriage that we want, that we love?   Laura Dugger: (26:34 - 27:04) Yes, because from what I'm sensing, you're friends with each other, you're on purpose or on mission with God. He did a course correction change, putting you on this path to help couples. But your desire to work together, it's like He still honored that in the ministry of reconciliation.   And I'm assuming abundantly blessed it beyond what you could ever dreamed up what we're doing now.   Joanna Raabsmith: (27:04 - 27:42) Right. It's been amazing to see what God has done, how he's used our story, which is so fitting because it was someone sharing their story that brought our healing. And I think because of that and it wasn't right away; it took some time to get to the place where we felt open to God using our story to bring healing to others. But we found as we stepped into that, that we have received such a blessing.   Right. And just being able to sit with other couples in that journey and see them go from that place of pain and confusion to this place of restoration and thriving. Like there is no better work that we could have imagined for ourselves.   Laura Dugger: (27:42 - 28:09) Love that. And really, you did have to pioneer a path. There weren't many resources at that time.   So, that's another reason I'm grateful you can share your story, because I hope it unlocks freedom for others. So, if we're turning more outward now and you're helping as you work with couples, how do you help them identify the difference between sexual struggles and sexual addiction?   Matthew Raabsmith: (28:10 - 30:15) Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that it really kind of exists on a spectrum. And so, everything kind of exists under what we call problematic sexual behavior or unwanted sexual behavior.   Whenever someone is acting in a way sexually that doesn't align with their values. And then the question is, is how often, how compulsive, right? How habituated, right?   How really embedded is that practice? Because the more and more embedded it is and the more and more that I continue to act on that, seeing the damage that it's doing, that's really what qualifies as the addiction. The addiction is when I know that this is causing harm and I and I feel that even though I want to stop it and I've tried to stop.   Right. I can't stop the 12 steps has a great line. They say addicts, you know, addicts have no problem stopping.   It's staying stopped. That's hard for an addict. Right.   And so, that's usually a sign that there's an addiction. And really what that means is that just means that I'm going to have to be even more kind of thorough and scrupulous in my willingness to change a lot. Because if I have built an addictive lifestyle, that means everything I do kind of functions to support that lifestyle.   Right. And so, my part of that was this hiding. I lied about everything.   I would lie about anything just to make sure that I was in control of the narrative. And so, for me, it was recognizing that if I was going to move forward free of my addiction, then it had to begin with honesty, with this kind of radical honesty and transparency and growing in that consistently, because that was the way that I manifested this addiction and kind of kept it going. And so, that's really what the addiction is about, is recognizing what are the kind of pieces in my life that are supporting this addiction to continue to exist?   And how is God going to dismantle those things? Right. And how am I going to be a part of that dismantling?   Laura Dugger: (30:16 - 30:33) That's well said. And also, I'm curious, are there any common life circumstances, whether that's nature or nurture, that are more likely to predispose someone to more likely have this struggle with sexual addiction?   Matthew Raabsmith: (30:34 - 32:30) I mean, there are, I think, you know, the things that we tend to look for are trauma and trauma comes in so many different forms. So, trauma is more it's rare that it's a single event. It's often more a kind of consistent occurrences.   As I mentioned, you know, I can't speak to kind of one event in my life that I say this was the traumatic moment in which everything changed. But it was more of the chaos. And so, I grew up in a family that could be really, really, really loving and incredibly encouraging and fun and silly and in a heartbeat switch into one that was verbally and physically just chaotic and terrifying.   And it was that chaos that kept me on edge. What it did was it created in me kind of a system of always wanting to be on high alert. And that would exhaust me.   That would kind of wear me out. And I would want to kind of numb that kind of feeling away. And so, I think those traumas, I do think early exposure.   Right. I mean, I was exposed early before my brain was ready to really understand what it was dealing with. And I think the third component that we often see is a low level or a kind of really a void of sexual education.   There was I'm sure I had a small talk with my dad at some point, but we were not talking about pornography. We weren't talking about bodies. We weren't talking about sex from a kind of healthy, good way.   I grew up in the church, and it was kind of don't do this until you're married and then you'll be fine. Right. That was the sexual education message.   And so, those things, right, trauma, exposure and lack of kind of education usually forms in someone a difficulty of knowing what they're doing, knowing that it's destroying them before it's really kind of gotten a deep hole.   Joanna Raabsmith: (32:30 - 33:20) I think like the brain. The brain aspect to when we talk about addiction, there are usually chemicals involved in addiction being formed, being created. And so, I think also co-occurring disorders, right, that emotional pain, also things like anxiety, depression, ADHD, where my brain really likes the dopamine it gets from sexual acting out. Right.   And you can actually need it to feel OK. That can also be a factor in kind of especially that addictive side of these behaviors. When my brain gets really attached to that dopamine release that it's getting because maybe I have some other things going on or I just have emotional pain.   I don't know what to deal with, how to handle it, how to regulate that in a healthy way.   Laura Dugger: (33:20 - 34:30) There's so many good points there. I'll just highlight one because there's a profound piece that you were talking about with early exposure to evil and the corruption of it is extremely harmful. And yet not being exposed to God's good design for sex and hopefully being coached by our parents, that is both of those play a part in the addiction. And so, I'm thinking even as we shift to think about parents, I know I've had parents come to me and just say, I don't want to talk about this with my kids.   I don't want to rob their innocence. And my approach is if God made it, this is good. We can talk to them.   You're not robbing their innocence when you're sharing the good age-appropriate parts of sex. And it's so great to be that first one to share with them. And I think it does the opposite of what we would expect.   We're afraid that that might make them hyper sexualized. But would you speak to that? Any encouragement for parents?   Matthew Raabsmith: (34:30 - 36:37) Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, even as parents, we've got kids and its still kind of navigating it. But I do think what it does is it lets someone learn the things they need to in the timeline they need to.   I think part of one of the things is that, you know, really good sexual education starts young. I mean, they start six and seven years old or even younger, just talking about our bodies. Right.   Because I think that's part of it. Really, this is about understanding the goodness of our bodies. This body was created by God, the maker of heaven and earth, and he called it good.   And so, I think part of a good sexual education begins with that. And then, what's really nice is once you've started the conversation, that means if your children are exposed or if they're presented with things that don't line up with what they've been hearing, they now feel safe to come and talk about that. Because that's really what this was about.   I didn't feel safe to talk about what I was exposed to, what people were doing. Right. And what people were encouraging me to engage in.   And so, you know, my parents would ask me how it's going. I would not tell them anything because it wasn't a conversation that they were having with me. And so, I didn't think it was a conversation I was going to have with them.   And so, that meant that as I found myself further and further away from my values, I felt like, who am I going to share this with? And so, part of having the conversation is it normalizes with our kids that this is OK to talk about, which is actually what adults need. I mean, part of our work with couples as adults, we have to get them talking about sex and body parts.   I mean, it's amazing to have 30, 40, and 50-year-olds in our offices and in our sessions. And they're so uncomfortable. Right.   They don't want to talk about sex. They don't want to talk about their bodies. They don't want to talk about what their bodies do.   Right. And we keep being like, this is God's good stuff. Right.   There is goodness here. But you have to begin by talking about it. Right.   Having these conversations.   Joanna Raabsmith: (36:38 - 37:54) I tell all the parents I work with, your kids are going to pick up a narrative about what sex is and what sexuality is, whether you want them to or not. And so, would you rather be the first person to step in and give them a healthy view, a healthy narrative to understand? Right.   And this is beyond kind of the nuts and bolts that everything our kids are learning. They're trying to find a deeper meaning. They don't think it's unconscious when they're young. Right. But they're taking it and they're going, what meaning does this have for me? How does this inform my self-worth, my view of my own value as a human in my body?   And how does it inform my experience of the world and my safety in the world? And am I empowered to make decisions? Am I connected?   Do I belong? Right. All of those questions are asking.   And so, as they're confronted with issues of sexuality, it's going to inform those things. And the world will not give them a healthy narrative about it. Right.   And so, being able as a parent to step in and give them that healthy meaning, that narrative, that understanding of their worth and their safety as they're piecing together kind of sexuality, again, at that age-appropriate level is so important.   Laura Dugger: (37:54 - 38:30) Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well.   If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com. And I love that you're talking about this with couples you work with.   So, will you give us an overview of the intimacy pyramid that you actually wrote a book about and you teach to couples?   Joanna Raabsmith: (38:30 - 38:31) Absolutely.   Matthew Raabsmith: (38:31 - 39:15) Yeah. I mean, it was born out of our journey because, as you said, we wandered for a while and we felt a little bit like Israel, just kind of, you know, knowing that the Promised Land was out there, but never really feeling like we could find it. And when we started to piece together, I think the kind of relationship that we had dreamed of reclaiming, we really ask ourselves, how can we make this a more direct, a simpler process, not just for couples who went through what we went through, but really for any couple who's hungry for this, for the couple like us when we were first starting.   It really wants an amazing marriage. And so, we really focused on a kind of simplistic idea of what are the core kind of foundational levels of building really healthy intimacy.   Joanna Raabsmith: (39:16 - 40:10) Yeah. So, the intimacy pyramid, it's actually a triangle. There's a visual that goes along with it.   So, if you imagine the different levels of the triangle, very similar to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, starting at the bottom, you have to start with honesty. And so, we definitely experienced that reality in our own relationship. Right.   This is something we learned from Couples in Betrayal, but like Matthew said, we realized this is where every couple starts. Am I willing to be fully open, fully honest and transparent in this relationship? Am I being my authentic self?   Right. And after that level of honesty, that's when we start to build safety. And that has to do with our ability to communicate in really healthy, constructive ways.   Even when it's hard, even when we're disagreeing, even when we feel like yelling at each other. Are we able to show up with that belief that we both have the same goal? We're trying to build something together.   Matthew Raabsmith: (40:10 - 41:57) And with honesty and safety, that's where we get to work on trust as a couple. That's that next level. And trust is where we start to be more partners, where we're really starting to kind of lean in, work together, kind of be courageous and saying, “Hey, this isn't just my life anymore, right?”   This is our life together. And as that trust is established, this is what allows for the incredible work of vulnerability. And there's been all these studies about vulnerability over the last few years and how important it is.   What we recognize, though, is vulnerability on top of nothing is actually really risky and kind of even dangerous. It's vulnerability that's built on healthy trust where we step in and we do share some of those deeper pains in those wounds, those fears. We start to really heal some of those kind of early traumas that we experience.   It's in that vulnerability. That's what allows a couple to be truly intimate. And it's when they've worked through each of these levels, what we find is these couples, when they reach this kind of this intimacy level, they're passionate about who they are as a couple. They love kind of their relationship itself. They have a purpose to it. They have a sense that like our marriage, our relationship exists for a reason, but they're also really playful.   They're silly. They're really kind of comfortable in their own skin. And it's those five levels really working together that allows them to experience a relationship that gives life. I think one of the things we know is that when God creates, it gives life. And so, God created marriage not to burden us, right? Not to kind of, you know, not even just to get us through, you know, kind of surviving life, but actually to bring more life.   Right. And not just life within the relationship itself, but life outside of it.   Laura Dugger: (41:58 - 42:22) Oh, I love it. And you're also working with couples. I've heard you speak before about the working on offering your spouse the gift of self-awareness. And so, what could couples expect? How do you actually work with them to grow in self-awareness and recognize things like the emotional process they go through in marriage?   Joanna Raabsmith: (42:22 - 43:48) Absolutely. So, awareness. So, in our book, we obviously detail the intimacy period much more.   And that's Building True Intimacy is the name of the book. But each of those levels we just walked through have different components that go into that. And awareness is kind of like one of the most important components of that honesty foundation.   So, we have to start with awareness and we can't really build anything if there's a lack of self-awareness. And so, when we work with couples, one of the first places we start is we kind of look at the past. Are they aware of what they've been through, what those experiences are, and how those experiences have shaped them into the person that is now in the present, showing up with their spouse.   Right. And so, once I start to have that insight from my past, from those experiences, how they shape me, I can better understand my present. What are the things that I feel and why do I feel those things in particular?   Right. And then when I feel those things in a relationship, and these are typically those kind of heavier, more challenging, more painful emotions. How do I respond?   How am I showing up? Because the reality is that all of us cope with emotional pain the same way we cope with physical pain. We go into fight or flight.   That part of our brain gets triggered and we respond with these kind of destructive relational coping behaviors that then hurt my partner.   Matthew Raabsmith: (43:48 - 46:22) Yeah. Like, for example, I told you about that chaos I experienced as a kid. And so, those would always happen around conflicts.   My parents would disagree about something. There would be some type of argument about, you know, and it could be anything where we were going for dinner or what color the curtains were. Right.   But it would create this chaotic environment. So, as I got married, the thing that I didn't like the least was any type of conflict. Joanna and I would get in when I could sense us disagreeing and we are both passionate.   We have opinions and we believe things and we get into this kind of disagreement and argument. It would freak my system out. And I didn't realize that because I didn't really know my past.   I didn't know what was going on. I would just really do anything to shut it down. I get angry and I try to get loud, or I just walk away in the middle of a conversation.   As Joanna was talking, I would just leave the room and my acting out was just a further manifestation of that kind of leaving the relationship. And so, part of my healing journey was to learn about my story and recognize, oh, OK, I can see what's happening. And what's really interesting is it still happens in our life today.   I've been in recovery for 12 years. I still feel the same things. Now it's more like when my kids are getting involved.   Right. And there's energy in the room and people are online. And then I go, oh, yeah, there it is.   There's my system again. It's starting to feel unsafe. It's starting to feel alone. And I know what it wants to do. It wants to get angry, or it wants to just shut down and walk away. And what's incredible is that we've learned the ability to see where we're at but also speak directly to that.   And so, what I get to do for myself now is I get to go, “OK, I know I'm feeling unsafe and I know I'm feeling alone. And I know I want to get angry to solve it, but it won't do it. But here's the truth. The truth is that I'm safe in God's economy. I'm empowered. I have an incredible partner in my life. I've never been alone. I've always had someone there for me. And Joanna is the perfect example of that.”   And that totally changes my sense of really kind of where I am. And it changes how I show up. I tend to be much more calm.   I ask questions rather than make demands. And it's that ability to kind of see where we're at and shift. That's just been such a game changer for our family and just for our own relationship.   We still have to work on it. You know, it doesn't always look that pretty. Right.   But when we do, it's amazing how different it goes.   Laura Dugger: (46:24 - 46:44) And then I just think of the generational impacts that has when people are willing to do the work. And so, if there's a brave couple out there who wants to seek their own help and healing, can you share where they can go for help, including the Raabsmith team and all that you have to offer?   Matthew Raabsmith: (46:46 - 47:30) Yeah, you know, we would love them to connect with us because I think one of the things we recognize was having guides along the way. I mean, we had to figure a lot out ourselves, but we also had some really incredible guides, some mentors, some coaches, some therapists. And so, we always just say, hey, connect with us.   You can find us at raabsmithteam.com. We have a heart for couples who want restoration and reconciliation because that's what we're getting to live and experience. And what's cool is our whole team, they're couples who've been through this work, but who also have been professionally trained to help other couples to just continue to guide and to grow relationships so that they're thriving and they're kind of giving that life.   Joanna Raabsmith: (47:30 - 48:10) Absolutely. We also love to give out resources. And so, we have the kind of we call it the honest connection.   And so, again, if you're starting this journey or even this is for any couple who wants deeper connection, deeper intimacy, learning how to do that on a daily basis in small ways is so important. And so, we have a worksheet that couples can take and use. We're happy to provide that for them for free and kind of try this for 30 days and notice the changes that you experience in your relationship.   And so, that's a great starting point wherever you are in relationship to begin that journey of connection.   Matthew Raabsmith: (48:10 - 48:14) And you just go to raabsmithteam.com/free and that resource is all yours.   Laura Dugger: (48:15 - 48:26) Wonderful. Add links for that in the show notes for today's episode. And is this then for any couple worldwide, nationwide?   Can you work with people?   Matthew Raabsmith: (48:27 - 48:55) We have we've got couples across the world, which is really fun. It's been really neat just to see the way that God has used our work. One of the things when we first started this journey, we started getting couples calling us saying, “Hey, I don't have anybody in my area that specializes in this, that understands this journey. Can I work with you?” And so, we kind of felt a calling to say we want to make sure that we connect with people wherever they are. And so, absolutely.   If you can hear our voice, you can work with us.   Laura Dugger: (48:55 - 49:14) I love that. And just as a little bonus practical tip, you kind of mentioned being proactive to thriving in marriage. Is there any encouragement that you could share or a specific practical tip that anybody could start to incorporate if they want to take their marriage to that thriving level?   Matthew Raabsmith: (49:15 - 50:12) Yeah, I think just the ability to slow down. We have a  nine, seven and six-year-old. We own our own business, and we like life and life can get incredibly fast.   And I think what we have found is when, as I was mentioning, when I learned the ability just to slow down, even if I don't fully just know myself slowing down and checking in, just where am I at right now? Where's my heart? Right. Where do I want to be?   I think I realize that so often my values and my actions aren't aligned when I'm moving too quickly. I'm not being the person that I want to be. And we see that in so many couples. We meet so many couples and there are two really great people who have a hard time working together. They have a hard time kind of being a team.   And it's usually because they're working so fast. They don't realize they're kind of working against each other. So, slowing down, I think, is such a big thing.   Joanna Raabsmith: (50:12 - 51:18) Another piece that's, again, really easy to start right away. A lot of couples we work with, and I think probably even us when we start a relationship, was there were two individuals in a relationship, and it was kind of either me or you. And starting to understand there's this third thing between you, the relationship. There's a third almost entity that really needs care. It needs nurture. It needs you to focus on its needs from time to time.   And so, beginning to approach the day, even approach conversations with this question of like, what does our relationship need right now? And even as you're trying to make decisions, what is the way we can decide this in a way that's good for our relationship or what decision benefits our relationship rather than does it benefit you or me? Because when you get into that struggle, it can become a competition.   It can become transactional really quickly. So, starting to ask that question, starting to talk about the needs and caring for the relationship very intentionally can be a way to shift that.   Laura Dugger: (51:20 - 51:38) Thank you for sharing that. I think that leads into my last question, because you already know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you, Matthew and Joanna, what is your savvy sauce?   Matthew Raabsmith: (51:39 - 52:22) I kind of mentioned this, but I think it's the willingness to be honest. I was so willing to lie to myself and kind of really hide from other people. And I didn't even know that I was doing it.   But as I have learned to be more honest in really kind of healthy ways, right. You can dump, you can whine, you can complain, you can get angry. But truly being honest meant just looking at what I was feeling and trying to kind of figure that out and name that.   As I have learned that ability to be honest with myself and with others, it has just opened up a new world of possibilities. And it has shown me how many people care for me; how much God cares for me. So, I think that honesty is something I just want to practice more and more every day.   Joanna Raabsmith: (52:22 - 53:30) I think for me, just in my own journey and working with so many partners, that importance of being able to make empowered decisions in my life. Right. That I am really intentionally choosing the direction I'm going in life.   Realizing that instead of going into this more helpless, powerless victim stance is such a difference. And really the only thing that changes a lot of times is mindset. You don't have to overhaul your entire life.   Right. You have to add in like four hours of self-care and all of these things. But starting to shift that mindset into, wait, I have power in the decisions I make.   And one of the ways that's really important to do that is growing that self-awareness. I cannot make empowered decisions if I'm not aware of where I'm at emotionally, physically, spiritually. Right.   If I'm not aware of my needs on a regular basis. And so, slowing down to check those things in, sometimes even multiple times in the day if you're not used to that. So, you're more connected to yourself, to what you need, what you want.   So, you can start making those empowered decisions.   Laura Dugger: (53:32 - 54:00) I love that. It's just so enjoyable to host a very lively couple who's humble and you've done your work. And then you're willing to share all this overflow of goodness with all of us.   So, I think my prayer is that the Lord would richly bless you for this open-handed generosity of wisdom and your story and experience that you've shared with us and modeled for us today. So, thank you to both of you for being my guest.   Joanna Raabsmith: (54:00 - 54:03) Thank you so much. It's a joy being here.   Laura Dugger: (54:05 - 57:47) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

The holiday season can be the most joyous time, but for many, it can also stir anxiety, loneliness, or heartache. Beginning our "Advent at Victory" sermon season, Pastor Cameron Haubrick brings us an inspiring message about the three hopes we can find around us: deferred hope, eternal hope, and now hope. We pray that this powerful word lifts your spirits and rekindles your hope in what is happening and what is to come! Scripture references: Proverbs 13:12 (NIV) 2 Samuel 7:1-17 (NIV)  Romans 15:12-13 (NIV)   Connect With Us: To learn more about Victory Church and to get connected, visit us at https://victory.church/   Worship Gathering Times: To see locations & worship gathering times, visit https://victory.church/locations/   Prayer: We believe in praying big prayers to a big God and expecting big results. If you're in need of prayer, our team would be honored to pray with you. You can reach us for prayer at https://victory.church/prayer   Giving: At Victory, we steward God's resources well and with radical generosity. If you'd like to give toward the mission of Victory Church, visit https://victory.church/give/   Follow Us: OKC Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victorychurchokc/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/victorychurchok   Edmond Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victoryedmond/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/victory.churchEDM   Grapevine (Texas) Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victorychurchgrapevine/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089341962919

Special Patreon Release: Janelle Rupp Conversations with your Teen About Sex Puberty and Identity   *DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.   "Walk with the wise and become wise, for a companion of fools suffers harm." Proverbs 13:20 (NIV)   *Transcript Below*   Questions We Discuss: Perhaps one of the most asked questions by Christian singles is, "How far is too far?" How do you respond to that question? Knowing the importance of educating ourselves as adults, what is the most popular sexual behavior among teens? What are some wise and age-appropriate guidelines recommend for teaching our kids about sex and sexuality?   Janelle Rupp is a Christ-follower, wife & mom of three (in that order).  Upon graduating from Cedarville University with a Bachelor's of Science in Nursing and a Minor in Biblical Studies, she worked nine years as a Pediatric ICU nurse before transitioning into nine years of nursing education for the Empower Life Center of Peoria, Illinois. There she specialized in Sexual Health with an emphasis on Sexual-Risk Avoidance. After moving to the Atlanta, Georgia area, Janelle developed a Biblically-based, Christian & Home school curriculum entitled “Remember Whose You Are: Rooting Human Sexuality in Gospel Identity." Using an expositional study of Genesis 1-3 alongside evidence-based scientific research, the four-unit program builds on itself to establish how gospel identity determines holy & healthy & holy sexuality. With a passion for both science & Scripture, Janelle is currently teaching the curriculum at North Cobb Christian School while watching the Lord grow the program at schools nation-wide.  She can be reached at jrupp.rememberwhoseyouare@gmail.com.   Recommended website for Parents: axis.org   Thank you to our sponsor: Daisy Kings Use code SAVVY to Save!   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcript*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:31) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here. Today's message is not intended for little ears.   We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.   Thank you to Daisy King's, a skincare brand that meets simplicity. Their tallow-based products are made with wholesome, God-given ingredients to deeply nourish, restore, and protect your skin.   There are no toxins, no fillers, just pure, effective skincare. Visit DaisyKings.com to nourish, restore, and glow.   Janelle Rupp is my guest today, and she packed so much knowledge and inspiration into this time by educating us on a healthy view of sex, sharing God's holy and awe-inspiring design of our bodies, and ways that all of this points to Him.   She also is going to include meaningful conversations to have with our children throughout the years that they're in our home. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Janelle.   Janelle Rupp: (1:32 - 1:35) Thanks so much, Laura. I'm so glad to be with you today.   Laura Dugger: (1:35 - 1:42) Will you just get us started by telling us a little bit about your faith journey and where it's brought you to today?   Janelle Rupp: (1:43 - 4:51) Sure. I was raised in a Christian home. I remember from a young age actually being struck with the realization that God loved me so much that He sent His own son for me.   But it really was probably more in my teenage years that I realized the depth of my sin, that it was great, and that Jesus was that bridge between who God was and who I was. Also, early on in my life, I knew I wanted to be a nurse, which is actually kind of interesting because there was no one in my family who was a nurse or in healthcare. But I had watched my mom care well for others in her family who had a myriad of mental and physical health problems.   So, I do think that the compassion that God put in my heart at a young age did find its place in a healthcare setting just over time and experiences I watched her. I really felt like my dream job would be to work in preventative healthcare, specifically with teenagers. And I had a heart for girls in really tough situations like teenage pregnancy.   It's a very marginalized group of humanity. And so, after college, I ended up in the pediatric intensive care unit at Riley Children's Hospital in Indianapolis for about seven years. And during that time, I met my husband.   We got married. We had our first child. And then while pregnant with our second, we decided to move closer to my extended family back in Illinois.   And a few years after I had our second child, I actually ended up landing that dream job that I felt like the Lord had laid on my heart way back in college. And so, I started the Empower Life Center in Peoria, Illinois in 2008. And I worked there for nearly 10 years as a nurse educator, teaching parenting and newborn classes.   But my primary role was a sexual risk avoidance educator, specializing in sexually transmitted disease and infections. And I would teach in public schools and private schools and charter schools. It's a junior high and high school level and also a guest lecturer at Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois.   And I always tell people that no one grows up and hopes to be a sex teacher one day. I did not envision that God would put me in that area of education, but he did. And so, after 10 years of doing that, when our family then transitioned down to Atlanta, Georgia for a job transfer for my husband, we had chosen to put our kids, now three kids at that point, in Christian education.   And within months, the middle school principal had heard about my background and approached me to create a curriculum for their fifth through eighth graders that was centered on a biblical view of sex and sexuality. So, I spent a series of months developing that curriculum. I then decided to go ahead and accept a teaching job to teach that curriculum.   And it's entitled Remember Whose You Are. And it's designed as a four unit developmentally appropriate program for Christian schools or homeschool environments. And currently we're in the beginning stages of equipping and training other schools to implement it at their school as well.   Laura Dugger: (4:52 - 5:17) Wow, that is so interesting to hear how you got interested in teaching others this healthy view of God and sex. And at the foundation of your teaching, you begin with a theology of God. So, I'd love to zero in on just one of your points that God is a relational God.   Will you elaborate on that and share how it ties into this topic we're discussing today?   Janelle Rupp: (5:18 - 7:13) For sure. One of my goals in teaching this is just to help my students see God for who he is, fall in love with who he is. And God being relational is one of the places where I always notice that beginning to take shape.   I find evidence for that in Genesis 1:26, where it says, “and God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness.” The definition of the word relational means a desire to pursue relationship or connection with another. And before we think of God pursuing relationship with us, it's actually really critical to look at that verse and note that God is already relational within himself. So, we see evidence in that verse that he's referring to himself in a plural sense.   And when we take that alongside other areas of Scripture as well, we see God existing as Trinity, Father, Son and Spirit, three in one, indicating that God does not need humanity for relationship. He only desires humanity for relationship. And one day, actually, when I was teaching that to a group of fifth grade boys last year, I said, God does not need you, but he wants you.   One of the fifth grade boys, in all complete sincerity, said, “Aww.” And it was one of the sweetest things I had ever heard because it was this very honest verbal expression of what it felt like to know that we are wanted by the God of the universe. I tell my students, “You know, someone only wants relationship with you when they love you.”   And so, while 1 John 4:8 tells us, “that God is love.” It's pretty amazing that way back in the first chapter of Genesis, as we find God creating man and creating woman, He's still incredibly loving that He even desired to create it in the first place. So, I think God being relational is such an important aspect to the who and the why of who He is.   Laura Dugger: (7:14 - 7:28) Absolutely. And I really envision this chat being a time when parents can listen alongside their teen or their tween or whenever it's age appropriate. So, will you just give us a glimpse of what you do teach in schools?   Janelle Rupp: (7:29 - 13:04) I would be happy too. The very first unit is just the who and the why of God. We focus on 10 characteristics of God, and then we transition to the who and the why of humanity.   What do all humans have in common? And we highlight eight characteristics that we all share in common. And then unit two, it's centered on the who and the why of me.   And specifically looking at Genesis 1:27, identity means that we're made in the image of God and that we are made male and female. So, Genesis 1:27 says, “So God made man in his own image, in the image of God, he made them male and female, he created them.” So, here we really want to introduce what does it mean to be made in the image of God as a social being, emotional being, a spiritual being, an intellectual being?   But also, what does it mean to be made with this physical body, male or female? And so, we introduced the reproductive system with an emphasis on puberty and human growth and development. And within that introduction, in that unit, I do something that's historically not been done in Christian settings, which is that I am teaching both the male and the female reproductive system to both genders.   And this next sentence may sound a little odd to some of your listeners. I know my students sometimes giggle when I say it, but I see the glory of God when I study the anatomy of both the male and the female reproductive systems and the intricacies of the design in order to see how they both work perfectly together. To me, it's awe-inspiring.   And so, I believe females have every right to see and begin to grasp the design of a male reproductive system. We use really basic anatomical diagrams for that. And then males equally have every right to see and begin to understand the basics of the female reproductive system using a diagram.   And my approach to that is clinical and scientific. It's definitely from an anatomy perspective. But I also make sure to take the time to point out some of, again, the beauty of the design.   For example, females, when they are born, are born with all the eggs that they will ever, ever have in their ovaries. And this design is super perfect because it means that you and I are not going to be 70 years old and find out that we're unexpectedly pregnant. Eventually, those eggs will run out about in our mid-40s.   And I always thank God for that design. It is a good design. Another one is just the female cervix.   The female cervix doesn't reach full maturity and protection until our early to mid-20s, where it then provides this wonderful protective barrier between the external and internal anatomy of the female reproductive system. When you explain things like that, I literally watch the kids have what I call light bulb moments, where they begin to see the why behind the design. And it's so important.   They've never taken the time to look at that and to hear it. In fact, I often call the reproductive system the forgotten body system. Christian kids in particular, they will get through a whole unit on the body having never talked about the reproductive system.   And if they are, then usually they're taught just about their own gender and they're missing that overarching beauty of what God designed. So, I think it's really important to highlight that reproductive system and for both genders. But in Unit 3, we move from the foundation of just gospel identity as made in His image and male and female into then specifically human sexuality.   And we use mostly Genesis 2 as we look through this about how God designed marriage and God designed sex, which is super clear in Genesis 2:24 and says, “Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and take hold of his wife and they will become one flesh.” And so, God's design for marriage and sex is clear that it's between a man and a woman. And also that that man and woman should follow the order of this verse.   First, that they leave and leaving might be dating. It might be courting. It might be pursuing a relationship.   However, we set those boundaries for our kids. And then second, that they would take hold and experience the intimacy and blessing of marriage, referencing that connection that God put Adam and Eve in through marriage. And third and last in that order, but that they become one flesh, which is referencing sex.   And so, after explaining that very good design, we transition into Genesis 3. And honestly, I love how Moses starts off the chapter here, Genesis 3, by saying, “Now the serpent.” And I always tell the kids that I hear that music in my head of dun, dun, dun. Like you just know that everything is going to change.   This good design is going to change and it's not changing for the better. And so, we start then looking at all the distortions that sin has caused within the overall topic of sex. And that means not just looking at premarital sex, but also adultery, pornography, sexting, gender identity, sexual identity.   And honestly, that list just keeps on growing every year that I teach. And so, then unit four, that last unit, is what I call the now what unit. In light of taking everything that we know now about gospel identity and human sexuality, I really encourage the kids to start really thinking about how they practically should be living in relationships with someone that they're attracted to and that they want to pursue.   And we use the entire Bible to help us answer that question. We actually end that unit with the question and answer panel discussion, using questions that the students have come up with through the course of that week. And it's always a sweet time of conversation focused on, again, gospel identity and human sexuality.   Laura Dugger: (13:06 - 13:19) Oh my goodness, that is so amazing and comprehensive. If parents are listening and they're wondering just about that diagram, what age do you recommend showing something like that? How would you respond to that question?   Janelle Rupp: (13:20 - 14:08) That's an excellent question. So, we're doing that in sixth grade. You know, it always depends on what your child's exposure and experience is, what their environment is, and their curiosity.   I think each child is so different. But in general, sixth grade would be age 11, 12, I think that's 10 to 12 for sure. But even you could probably push it as you're talking about puberty, which is where we interject it, just because it gives reference to what is a period for a girl?   Or what are the changes as a male that I'm having inside my body right now? Where's that coming from? So, I think starting as young as eight or nine to 10.   No later really than 12, I think would be really, really important.   Laura Dugger: (14:09 - 14:16) Thank you. That is helpful. I'm assuming that you're everybody's favorite teacher and that this is their favorite course to take.   Janelle Rupp: (14:17 - 14:48) We have a lot of fun. And I love when the kids buy into it. You know, sometimes I'll find that kids come in and they're a little hesitant to talk about this or they feel awkward by it.   But I think, you know, coming at it from both a clinical perspective, but also a biblical perspective, doing my best to keep them at ease and have fun as we have these conversations. Eventually, they loosen up over time. And it ends up being a really sweet time to talk about stuff that really, really matters in life.   Laura Dugger: (14:48 - 15:05) It does. And you're sharing so much truth. And it is the truth that sets us free.   And I can see where that would overcome so much confusion. So, let's even get really practical. When you're teaching these young people about sex, how do you define it?   Janelle Rupp: (15:06 - 19:12) This is such a great question. No one's ever actually asked me this. And I think it's so, so important.   The CDC definition of sex, it is very complete in its definition. It does a really good job covering what I believe are really important distinctives within that definition. And so, that definition is, quote, “Sex is defined as any part of your body and or specifically your reproductive area coming into contact with another person's body and or specifically their reproductive area.”   And one of the key points that I want to point out from this definition includes this phrase, reproductive area. I find my students have no reference for that, and even adults often don't. But simply put, the reproductive area is anything on the outside of the body that covers the reproductive system organs on the inside of the body.   So, this area actually extends from the belly button down to the genitals. A lot of times we only reference those genitals, but it actually extends belly button down to the genitals. And so, again, people are often surprised by that.   But at the same time, you know, whether it's called the reproductive area or maybe a private area, people do commonly recognize the importance of keeping that area safe and private. I often stick with that phrase, reproductive area, to reference the importance of trust when it comes to keeping things safe and private as a jumping off point to just help the kids see that a person is trustworthy if they keep you safe and if they keep things private. And again, such an important thing that we need to teach our children is that if someone pushes past what feels safe for us or pushes past areas on our body that are private, our children need to know, and we need to know those are not trustworthy people.   And furthermore, we should then give our children permission to tell someone that they do trust, hopefully us, but somebody that they do trust, somebody that keeps things safe and private about any person whose words or actions don't prove trustworthy. And as a side note, giving kids appropriate anatomical names is so important for this as well. But if you aren't using those terms and they don't understand it, we're speaking a language that they can't understand and maybe aren't able to convey.   And so, I think additionally, as children get older and you continue to reference that reproductive area as an area you keep private, I think it's super important to keep going back to theology and to Scripture. And in Genesis 1 and 2, we don't see anything having to be kept private because there was nothing that needed to be private. And in fact, the end of Genesis 2 says in verse 25, “And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.” My students giggle when we get to that verse because that sounds so foreign to them.   But reminding them that again, God's design was so good that there was nothing to be held back. They were fully intimately known by God and fully intimately known by each other and also without sin. But then when sin enters in Genesis 3, as Eve is tempted and enticed by the serpent, Adam is tempted, and enticed by Eve.   We see in that instant that sin changes every single thing because it causes Adam and Eve to then feel ashamed before God. They want to hide from God. It causes them to feel ashamed between each other.   They want to blame each other and it causes them to lose their sense of identity and purpose. And this is what happens to us, too, when sex and sin become entwined. It causes shame.   It causes us to hide. It makes us want to blame others. It causes us to question our identity and question our purpose.   But even though sexual sin changes the heart of man, it does not change the heart of God. And so, if our heart's desire is to love God in return for the love He's shown us, then our heart's desire should be to orient our lives around His design for our lives. And I would say even especially orienting our lives around His design for marriage and sex.   Laura Dugger: (19:13 - 19:23) Perhaps one of the most asked questions by Christian Singles is, How far is too far? So, how do you respond to that question?   Janelle Rupp: (19:24 - 25:50) Yes, I mean, this is the question that inevitably somebody's going to ask in my classes every single year. And no doubt, I mean, I think everyone has asked that question at some point or another in their lives. I certainly did.   And I was told that that was the wrong question. And I want to explain why first and then tell you how I answer it. But the reason was because when we look at Scripture in terms of holiness, which is having our heart completely for God versus idolatry, which means having our heart turned to something else, we see over and over and over in Scripture that we can't serve two masters.   We can't serve both holiness and idolatry. Matthew 6:24 is a great example. It's talking about the idolatry of money.   But it does say that whenever our heart is going after two things, we will either end up being devoted to the one and hate the other or devoted to the other and thus hate the one. And so, in other words, as we apply it to this question, we actually can't just straddle the line of both holiness and idolatry. And a lot of times that's where this heart of motivation of how far is too far is like, what line is the line that I can get to and still be holy?   But we really can't try to find and live on that line, because healthy and holy sexuality and sexual immorality doesn't exist. It is one or it is the other. And so, that's an important truth of Scripture.   I'm always in complete agreement with everything that I just said. But I also recognize that the Bible is really, really clear on how to give us direction in terms of setting boundaries and learning how to escape and endure temptation rather than to be enticed by it. And so, I teach my students a method to answer this question using an acronym called GRAY, G-R-A-Y, just to help them think biblically and critically about this question.   And actually it can be applied to any what I call the gray areas of life where Scripture may not specifically be very black and white about what we can and can't do. For example, another easy gray area topic within this same kind of umbrella idea would be dating. We aren't specifically told if we're to encourage our kids towards dating or courting or maybe arrange marriages.   Right. And yet I believe that there's four specific steps that we can use to determine the heart of God for our lives when it comes to gray areas of life. And so, the G in gray stands for go to God and it refers to prayer.   James 1:5 encourages believers to ask God for wisdom. It says, “He will give it generously to anyone who asks.” And I think praying for wisdom is such a foundational place to start on any topic, but specifically this one.   And then the R in the acronym stands for read the word. I always encourage my students and I would encourage parents as well, actively study the word of God, finding verses that give direction for decision making on this question. How far is too far?   One that I think jumped out at me is First Corinthians 10:23. As it's again, speaking of idolatry of the heart and it says, “all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful. I can do all things, but not all things are building up. And so, let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.”   So, when you apply that verse to this question of how far is too far, you begin to see that the question isn't so much is kissing OK, is anything done with our clothes on OK? But the question is more what behavior is helpful for me as I try to honor Christ with my body? What behavior builds up my desire to honor Christ with my life and or what behavior seeks to honor the person that I'm with?   And so, again, I think reading scripture can help us be able to know how to reframe that question and create boundaries. And then the A in gray stands for ask for advice. And here I encourage teens to seek out someone who is doing relationships well.   In other words, is there a couple that they admire, someone older than them that they admire, maybe a friend or sibling or a friend of a sibling, a teacher, a parent, a youth group leader? I found in my own life that God often gives wisdom through people like that. And actually, in the last 10 years, as I've been teaching this type of material, I found that asking couples that I respect this very same question.   How did you answer? How far is too far? It brings some of the best responses and encouragement that then I can share with my students to help them learn and grow.   So, I think asking for advice is a vital part of this. And then lastly, the Y stands for yield. It is the last step.   And yet it's such an important part of answering this question. Yield just simply means to wait. And you and I both know this generation does not like to wait.   Instinct gratification is their thing. And yet teaching them that there's so much value in yielding when we don't have clear answers to critical questions like this. So, I actually love to literally walk this out in front of the classroom.   I will demonstrate how, when I yield, I hold back on decisions such as how far is too far. I am always allowing myself room to continue to walk forward as I feel more certainty over the answer or I feel more led with the wisdom that God is continuing to give. However, if I walk forward without clarity, if I'm pushing boundaries that are perhaps lawful, I can.   But they're not to my benefit, not to my partner's benefit. Then it's very realistic that I am going to push farther than I am able to handle. It's going to bring harm to the relationship that I am in.   And I can't ever go back. The truth is that the line between being enticed by sin versus escaping and enduring the temptation to turn from sin. It's a thin line.   And so, helping teenagers with these four steps, I think just think more critically about where to set those boundaries is important. And then I do usually go on to encourage students to be really specific in writing out those boundaries. I'm a big fan that writing is remembering.   It stores in our long-term memory. And then to even share those boundaries in order to have accountability with them.   Laura Dugger: (25:51 - 27:47) And now a brief message from our sponsor. I would like to specifically address the ladies. Because let's talk skin care.   As moms, as women, we spend so much time caring for everyone else. But what about us? If you're tired of dull or dry skin and products filled with chemicals and fillers, it is time for something better.   God designed our skin to thrive with real nourishing ingredients. 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But I think this is really helpful having you share statistics.   So, what are some statistics you think we need to be aware of to educate us on sexuality and youth in America right now?   Janelle Rupp: (27:49 - 29:55) Yes, you know, this is constantly changing. And so, I do look for these on the regular. And so, the ones I'm currently kind of using as I educate this year, the average age of first pornography exposure is currently 11 years old.   And 1 out of every 10 visitors to porn sites are actually under the age of 10. And 22% of those are regular visitors to those sites. It's not that they're just there once.   They're regular visitors. When you talk about that next age group, 11 to 17-year-olds, 53% of them are accessing pornography. In addition, 1 out of every 14 are receiving sexually explicit material through social media, through texting.   And 1 out of every 17 are sending it, which is an interesting thing. I always tell my students that means that as people are receiving it, they're sending it to more than one person. And so, you know, somehow we could think that it's a conversation maybe staying between two people.   And almost in every case, that is not the reality. 41% of teens are engaging in sexual behavior and oral sex and vaginal sex and anal sex and what I call outer course. Every 11 minutes, CPS finds evidence of sexual abuse claims.   And 2 out of every 3 of those are age 12 to 17 years old. And then lastly, and this is kind of newer from a research study that is an important one, but identifying as LGBTQ+, has actually risen in teens on average by 4% in the last 5 years. Girls being higher than boys.   Girls averaging about 5% increase and boys at 3%. And I think, you know, you give those 9 quick statistics, and I'll be honest, you know, even every time I have to say them, I get that sinking feeling in my stomach. It takes a lot to shock me after 10 years of working with teens on this topic.   But it never feels good to say those out loud. I think it just reflects such brokenness on behalf of our culture's view of sex and sexuality.   Laura Dugger: (29:57 - 30:09) Wow, that is sobering. And if that reality feels alarming or overwhelming to a parent listening, then how would you advise them to educate their son or daughter?   Janelle Rupp: (30:10 - 33:09) Yeah, I think the scariest thing is when we allow those feelings that we're having to really just cripple us and our ability to parent our children through them. I had a mom come up last year, and she said, I'm just really exhausted by it all. I'm tired of checking up on my kid.   And, you know, as a mom of teenagers, I hear that. I resonate with that. But I think we need to fight through those feelings and encourage each other to fight through those feelings in order to parent with intention and godliness when it comes to these subjects.   I developed this Remember Who's You Are curriculum for students, but I 100% believe that parents are to be the first go-to for our kids on these topics, whether they feel like they have all the answers or not. It's really not the role of the school, nor of the church, nor of the youth pastor. It is primarily and foundationally the role of parents, with ideally then the school and the church, you know, locking arms with parents, coming alongside with a similar message.   And so, when it comes to equipping parents, which is something I feel strongly about as well, in order to have these ongoing conversations, I break down educating parents with three regular statements to help them kind of combat those feelings of overwhelmed or anxiousness when it comes to these topics. And the first regular statement would be to regularly educate yourself. We can't teach what we don't know.   And so, parents need to have answers to questions, and I'm going to give a series of questions here that I think need to be answered as examples, but there's certainly more. But questions like, what is God's design? Again, what is the reproductive area?   What does sexting mean? What does sending nudes mean? Because that's becoming actually a more popular phrase right now than using the phrase sexting.   Why is not porn good for our brains if it actually keeps us from not having sex outside of God's design? That's a question I've been asked. And a follow-up to that, what does the Bible say about masturbation?   How does a condom work? I've been asked that one. What is the most popular sexual behavior among teens?   Those are some toughies. You don't just kind of like pop out an answer to that without dedicating some time to researching those answers. I don't think that this needs to be an overwhelming amount of time.   In fact, I actually just encourage parents to set aside 15 to 20 minutes once a week, maybe even once every other week, but just put it on the calendar so that you really devote yourself to that time. You know, I think we dedicate ourselves as parents to things we care about. And I don't mean to say this harshly, but many moms spend much more time exercising than they do in their Bibles and figuring out answers to these questions and apologetic type answers.   And parents, you know, we spend a lot of time talking to our kids about sports and grades. And yet these are topics that have lasting relational impacts for their lives, not just in our family, but in their family to come. And so, we have to be diligent to set aside time and regularly educate ourselves.   Laura Dugger: (33:09 - 33:38) Janelle, I love all of this that you're saying. And I just want to pause on this first step of educating ourselves as the adults and as the parents. So, listening to something like this, hopefully people feel encouraged already doing a great job educating yourself.   And so, let's just answer a couple of those questions because it can be hard to know where do I go to find out these answers. I'm careful to Google this because something may pop up that I don't want to see.   Janelle Rupp: (33:38 - 33:38) Right.   Laura Dugger: (33:38 - 33:46) So, let's go with two of them. One of them you said is what is the most popular sexual behavior among teens right now?   Janelle Rupp: (33:47 - 34:46) Yeah, I think that this one is a little bit shocking for parents. And they often are unaware of where their teens are at as they are pushing boundaries on sexual behavior. You know, when I was growing up, oral sex became, and that's mouth to genitals, but that became a really popular sexual behavior.   And I remember hearing people say, well, that makes me feel a virgin because I now have not had vaginal sex. And so, again, just continuing to push these boundaries. So, now today's teenagers are past oral sex.   That's become just something that's normal and acceptable. And the most popular sexual behavior right now that you'll actually they will talk about and do would be anal sex right now, which is the anal area, which is obviously I always point this out, not actually the reproductive system, but in fact, the expiratory or the end of the digestive system. But that is the most popular sexual behavior among teens currently.   Laura Dugger: (34:47 - 35:14) That is really helpful to hear. And even years ago, when I was practicing as a marriage and family therapist, something that we learned was that the rise in pornography exposure was also corresponding or correlating with this rise in pressure for women to engage in anal sex. And that was a lot of times where it was coming from.   I'm assuming very similar with teens.   Janelle Rupp: (35:15 - 35:59) Yes, absolutely. And as our culture continues to kind of push the envelope on trying to get teenagers and adults to accept pornography is a natural part of human sexuality. I think we will just continue to see that behavior pushed more and more and more just among teens and relationships in general, which is really devastating.   I think of so many of these behaviors that are very degrading, particularly to women, but even to men. And again, that women, that girls would be thinking that that is considered an acceptable part of a relationship is such a tragedy, really. And again, just so reflective of the brokenness of our culture.   Laura Dugger: (36:00 - 36:19) And you bring up another question I want to follow up with, Ben, because porn is so destructive for a lifetime. But how do you answer that question if parents want to educate themselves of somebody making an argument of why not pornography if it keeps them from engaging in penetrative sex?   Janelle Rupp: (36:20 - 38:18) Yeah, so, there's some excellent websites that you can find that talk about the damaging effects of pornography. And I found, you know, good resources. Anyone's welcome to email me.   I'll include that later. But to get some of those resources. But it really does change and alter, actually, the connections that are created in the brain.   And one of the, I think, more interesting studies on pornography in the brain, as they looked at men who were watching and engaging in pornography, it would continually light up an area of the brain and stimulate it, which is an area of the brain that is usually lit and stimulated when a man would use power tools. And that's concerning on, I think, a couple of levels. One, that is degrading.   And again, this human made in the image of God to something that is to be just used. Right. And then second, anytime we engage in pornography, we are we're engaging more with a screen than a person.   And so, that intimacy level, that is something that's so precious about sex. You know, sex isn't just for making babies. It isn't just for this intimate connection.   It isn't just for pleasure. But it is to be wholly represented, all three of those when we look at God's design. But when we engage with pornography, we're completely reducing it down to one person's pleasure, one person's use.   And so, again, those connections that are supposed to exist between people now exist between a person and their screen. And you'll see across the board, these are people who easily get addicted. It's meant to be addicted, experience increased levels of depression, anxiety, suicide.   Grades go down for teenagers. They lose friends. So much research showing the devastating impact of pornography.   Laura Dugger: (38:19 - 38:32) That is really helpful. Thank you for sharing that. And back to that greater question. So, when you're advising parents to educate themselves, that's the first step. What's the next step in the process?   Janelle Rupp: (38:33 - 41:29) So, the second step that I recommend is to regularly to enter in. We aren't called to be our kids' best friends. We're called to step into their lives.   And that means stepping into friendships and relationships. It actually means stepping into their phone. You know, the amount of parents that tell me, I feel really bad because it's their phone.   And yet it's something that the parent is paying for, right? And so, that is a part of our lives, too. Theirs and ours.   But stepping into social media pages, their schools, their activities. And I think we don't have to be creepy about it. And that's what I think parents most, they're like, I don't want to creep my kid out or make them pull away.   I just think we have to be really intentional beforehand that we're developing this relationship of trust and communication. So, Josh McDowell has said rules without relationship equal rebellion. And so, the flip side of that is that when I have rules where I'm entering in and I have relationships where I'm entering in, that will equal trust.   And so, we need to keep entering in because we want to keep earning their trust. It goes both ways. We want that trust and communication.   So, entering in out of a desire for relationship, but also entering in with boundaries and rules for our kids in order to continue to build that trust between us. And then the third regularly statement is to regularly extend grace to yourself. Guilt and shame cannot go away without grace.   And a lot of us live with guilt and shame when it comes to these subjects. I often hear that that's one of the key reasons that parents will hesitate to talk to their child. They'll say to me, I don't want them to ask me about what I did.   And the only remedy for shame is grace. It's why God's plan to extend grace in sending Jesus. It's the best plan for our world because we're literally drowning in guilt and shame over these subjects.   And so, as parents, we first have to learn and work through accepting grace for ourselves. But for the purpose of extending it to others, it's very, very hard to extend grace when we haven't accepted it ourselves. And so, I think it starts with us.   And then again, it extends out to our kids. My husband and I were working through something that was happening with our teenagers this year. And I thought it was so profound.   As he said this statement, by God's grace, our kids will never get caught up in it. But it's also that same grace that will provide a way for our kids to get out of it. And so, we need to remember God's grace is greater than all of our sins.   And we can rest in that even if we don't do everything perfectly as a parent. Even if we forget to answer one of the questions. Even if our kids choose a path that is different than what we had taught them.   God's grace is greater than all of our sins.   Laura Dugger: (41:30 - 43:53) And I don't think we can hear that enough. So, thank you for that reminder.   Did you know that we are now accepting donations online through Venmo?   It's just one of our additional ways that you can give to support the work of the Savvy Sauce Charities and keep us on the air where we can keep providing this content for free. We pray that you'll consider partnering with us and generously donating before your end. Thanks for your support.   Well, Janelle, I think that you're so wise to teach parents that there's obviously no formula, and that's why it's so vitally important to keep in step with the spirit as we have these conversations with our children. But also, I'm sure that you've learned some wise and age-appropriate guidelines for teaching our kids about sex and sexuality.   So, will you share those with us for the different age ranges?   Janelle Rupp: (43:55 - 50:10) Yes, I think you're exactly right. There isn't a set formula because, again, as I mentioned before, every kid is different. Every experience and exposure is different.   But there are some general guidelines in order to, again, have these regular conversations with our kids. So, beginning ages kind of three to seven, I think focusing on what it means to be made in God's image, what it means to have a male part versus female part, how that kind of defines each gender. And understanding also what is private and safe within that is important.   So, one of the things that I did with my kids is very early on, as we were bathing in those ages, we would say, Thank you, God, for our fingers and our noses, and thank you, God, for our toes, and say, Thank you, God, for a penis because you're a boy, and thank you, God, for a vagina because you're a girl, and thank you for parts that we can't see inside of us. And I would name some of those parts as well, because I think it just helps them start recognizing, again, the beauty of what it means to be created by God. And also highlighting safe pictures and unsafe pictures, safe touch and unsafe touch, and stuff that I touched on before.   I think that's important as well. But then I personally believe this is one of the best ages to begin forming a framework on the sanctity of human life, that all life is created by God and for God in the image of God. And therefore, all life should be treated with dignity, respect, and love, regardless of size, regardless of gender, regardless of skin color, regardless of neediness or challenges.   It's a really natural and important tie-in to the subject at this age. And then when you get into that next age, age 8 to 10, I kind of think of it a little bit like preteen. Just continuing on with that conversation but bringing up this word puberty.   And kids always look terrified when I say that word. And I always tell them, then puberty is not a scary word. And I'm sorry that you have this vision that it is.   But puberty really is just human growth and development that make us male and make us female. And so, I think teaching our kids not to be even afraid of that word. There are parts that we need to keep private.   And yes, we don't need to talk about that with everybody. But these are not wrong or bad parts. They're parts that are created by God for God.   And God is a good God. And God is a sovereign God. And so, He created it for our good with us in mind.   And so, just continuing to engage and encourage our kids on those ideas at age 10. And then 10 to 12, and some educators would say sex should be introduced by age 10. I found that based on just, again, the exposure that my kids had, we had this type of a conversation as they headed into more age 11.   I think it for sure should be talked about before age 12. But at that point, you want to make sure you're including just a framework on what biblical sex and marriage is and what it's purposed for. Again, purpose for procreation, making babies, purpose for intimacy, even purpose for pleasure.   Listen, no 10 to 12-year-old is going to understand that part yet, which is fine because you're going to revisit it later when they're kids. This is a regular thing, right? But you want them to hear it from you.   You want them to hear it from you first so they understand that you are trustworthy. And so, they should be taught that sex is best seen in that context of marriage. One man, one woman that have left their father and mother, they've taken hold of each other in marriage.   And as a result, then a parent and actually ideally both parents, mom and dad, are able to help a child understand that framework and also recognize basic deviations outside of that framework. Not just that sex before marriage is outside, but also sex outside of marriage, the sexual and gender identity confusion. Anything that's falling outside of God's design for marriage and sex is a deviation from what he designed.   And then in that kind of 13 and older, recommendations that I make is always that you begin to establish a really good framework on how to have God-honoring relationships with someone of the opposite gender. I actually highly recommend Ephesians chapter 5 as you make this plan with your child. And a couple key points that it talks about within that chapter is that we treat those in the faith, those that share our common belief in Jesus Christ as brothers and sisters in Christ, in friendship and in a possible relationship, but one that has a lot of purpose and a plan in place.   But then we treat those who are not sharing our faith with love, but yet an understanding that those aren't relationships that I can pursue because I can't have an expectation that they are going to bring me closer to Christ, whereas the other should. And so, as parents within that, again, 13 and older category, you really need to start paying very much attention and entering in into those relationships that they have with their friends and their peers, because this is the second biggest impact maker on their decision-making next to you. Proverbs 13:20 says, “He who walks with the wise will be wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.”   I really believe in parents. If you need to change up their environment in order to help them form more God-honoring relationships in step with that Ephesians 5, we should not be afraid to do so. And again, continuing to expand on those other frameworks before, because regular conversations, but you're just getting into greater detail, more fine-tuning.   And I actually think at this age, too, you're digging deep into the truth of Scripture with your child. So, you let them come alongside you as you're learning how to answer these questions so that they can continue to refine who they are in Christ and to refine how to keep accountable with the Word of God and to refine how to set boundaries and how to navigate relationships in what I call purposeful dating versus purposeless dating. And purposeful dating, really just the overarching idea there is just that in the end, if it does end, that there may be sadness, but that there is also learning that comes so that I am lessening the brokenness and damage that may come as a result as well.   Laura Dugger: (50:11 - 50:30) And I love how also in your teaching, you lay out specific guidelines that don't fit within an age category, but they're more so for children who are at cell phone age or where they have unattended internet use. So, will you share some of those guidelines with us now, too?   Janelle Rupp: (50:31 - 54:54) Yes, for sure. You know, I always say when you introduce a cell phone to your child, especially one that has internet included with that phone, it does change a little of those guidelines that I just mentioned in that you need to increase the speed and the ages or decrease the ages, technically, in which you are discussing these things. Just because you're giving them a lot of access to things that will speak an opposite message from what you would be saying.   And so, when I encourage parents to look at a couple things as they're making the decisions about when to give a cell phone, I think you're specifically looking at does your child understand what it means to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit? And are they showing evidence of the fruits of his work in their lives? In other words, do I see evidence of the Spirit in the life of my child?   And so, that means does he or she recognize self-control? They know when they have it and they know when they don't. Do they recognize how to be a peacemaker?   Do they recognize how to be loving in what they say and what they do? Do they recognize and show faithfulness, kindness, gentleness, joy, patience, all of those fruits of the Spirit? And do they recognize and show that not just in person with someone, but even behind the screen when they don't see that person face to face?   And listen, no parent is going to say, oh, yeah, 100% of the time my kid is showing evidence of the fruits of the Spirit. But if I can honestly say yes, my child is showing that he is growing in evidence of that. And then you decide this is the age for him to have a phone.   Most educators, I'll just be super clear, most educators that work with teens, they recommend an age of anywhere from 13 to 15. But when you do give that, those same adults that work with those teens will also say the following, that a device should not be allowed in a private room or a private place. There should be a family charging place.   And we are on phones when we are around other people. And then that you should also have no phone zones for us. The dinner table is one of our very most important ones so that we are learning how to, again, continue to engage in conversation with one another without our phones, which is growing the relationship building that we want to grow.   And so, we hold to those boundaries. Understanding that an all access, unmonitored pass to the Internet does break down identity. It does work against.   And there's so much evidence to this. You know, even five years ago, I was less inclined to say hard and fast rules on the use of cell phones for teens. However, more and more and more and more, we continue to see research study after research study.   There's documentaries. Now there's reports about the dangers of the unlimited, unmonitored access to screens and how it hurts our kids emotionally, intellectually, socially, spiritually and even physically. I mean, I think of less sleep.   Right. Something that I've learned over these 10 years is that no kid stumbles into pornography with the use of their phone on purpose. So, so, so many times the first time is an accident and it happens again because that Internet use is unmonitored.   And so, here's another hard truth as well. It often also happens because someone else in the house or the family may be viewing pornography and it's in that browser history or it's in the logarithm of the device they're using. And so, understanding what drives that first use, but then the ramifications of that first look.   So, even if it's an inadvertent look, the hook to pornography is so addicting. And again, we talked about the damaging effects on our brains, our emotions and our relationship. So, I just think monitoring phones and Internet access is, yes, exhausting.   I mean, I feel it. But at the same time, the risk is so great that there's no way that we can stop while they are in our home. Because the worry and the regret of, oh, I should have done X, Y, Z, I think outweighs any type of temporary exhaustion for me in my day to have to check and monitor phone use.   Laura Dugger: (54:55 - 55:21) That's such a good point. It's going to cost us energy on one side or the other. But that is a wise choice to go with the hard choice first and hopefully more of an easier or more fruitful path.   When you reflect on our conversation so far, what hope do we all have for the gospel of grace impacting us specifically as it relates to our sexuality?   Janelle Rupp: (55:23 - 58:58) When I hear that question, I really love it. I instantly think shame is a result of sin, connecting that to the grace that is shown from our Creator and our Redeemer. And all of that, again, is really on display in Genesis 3.   And so, I want to take us there as I answer that question. I tell my students shame has two definitions. There is shame as a verb to shame someone.   And then there is shame as a noun to feel shame as a result of something that we have done wrong. Shame as a verb is something we never want to do. That's not a good thing, right?   But shame as a noun is actually a God-given gift that is meant to bring us back into relationship with God. And you look at how Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. It makes me chuckle, honestly, because as they feel the shame of their sin, their next step is to create garments to cover themselves.   And their shame was so great, but they went ahead and put these fig leaves on top of their bodies, these parts that now have to be private because of shame. And I just think to myself, those fig leaves had to have been so insufficient. We do this too, though.   We come up with ways to clothe ourselves to cover up the shame that we feel. It might be past sexual sin. It might be present sexual sin.   And we try our best to hide it. We try our best to make ourselves look presentable with our covering so that people won't see our sin and see our shame. I mean, all of that is that feeling that comes from that feeling of shame as a result of sin.   But what's beautiful when we look at Genesis 3, when Adam finally comes clean about his sin and shame. And I will say, listen, he doesn't do it perfectly because God has to literally say, where are you? Knowing where he is, but like basically saying, Adam, come out, come clean, right?   But as Adam does come clean about his sin and the shame that he's feeling, right? What does God do? God covers Adam and Eve with garments that He provides and He makes from the very first shedding of blood that we see recorded in Scripture.   And I'm doing it now. I weep every single time that I talk about this part, because God knows how to deal with shame so much better than we do. He knows how to deal with our shame in a way and cover us in a way that is a once for always.   And it's Genesis 3 is just a beautiful foreshadowing of how Christ is going to be sent. And there he comes in Matthew, right? To cover shame forever.   And so, as we remember that Jesus spilled his blood on a cross and then resurrected, conquering death and sin and the grave. We also get covered by that blood so that we no longer have to hide. We no longer have to feel that shame.   And we can stand, Romans 8 says, without condemnation. “Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ,” because Christ has covered us with garments completely and perfectly for forever. And so, our hope in this for our own sin, our past sin, any present sin, any future sin, and our hope for any sin that may rise up out of the heart of our child.   It's in the gospel that the gracious and loving covering that God gives us through Jesus is complete, making us right before God for all time.   Laura Dugger: (58:58 - 1:00:05) I love that so much, Janelle. And it makes me think of, I can't remember the research study, but they tracked people's brains when they were feeling like shame or regret or guilt. And found that sometimes people who struggle with anxious thoughts, that they have an over-functioning part of their brain where they can have those feelings of shame, sometimes when they haven't done anything shameful.   So, there's almost like a real guilt or a false guilt. And all of this conversation brings me to 2 Corinthians 7:10, where God addressed that first, because in the Bible it says, “Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.” And so, if we're going like even a level deeper to tease out that shame, sometimes we've felt that before.   Maybe, let's say, if something was done to us, and that's not the same shame that requires repentance, which is the godly sorrow. So, does that make sense?   Janelle Rupp: (1:00:05 - 1:00:28) Yes, exactly. That's exactly my point. And getting the kids to understand the difference between those shames but then seeing shame as not something that I have to push against.   Because if it is that godly shame that comes after me making a wrong choice, that is that shame to bring me closer to God in and through repentance. And again, that's a beautiful thing.   Laura Dugger: (1:00:29 - 1:00:39) It is, and it leads to freedom, which we may not think of in the moment, but that confession and bringing something to the light, that that is the best way to live.   Janelle Rupp: (1:00:39 - 1:00:40) Exactly.   Laura Dugger: (1:00:40 - 1:00:48) Are there any other important takeaways that you want parents and their children to be aware of as it applies to sex and sexuality?   Janelle Rupp: (1:00:49 - 1:02:44) Yes, you know, I think of two things here. The first being that, you know, sexual sin is really just one of many sins that Christ covers that he died for. You know, the blood of Christ covers the adulterer just as much as it covers the gossiper.   It covers the pregnant teenager and her boyfriend just as much as it covers you and I. And I think in the past, the church has overemphasized this sin and underemphasized others. But yet on the flip side, I mean, I think we really can't deny these are sins.   And even when we look at Scripture, it doesn't deny this. These are sins that carry a greater consequence and potential for enticing us towards, again, more habitual, ongoing sin in ways that just affect us deeper than other sins, which is why 1 Corinthians 6:18 says “Flee from sexual immorality.” And I'm going to pause there for just a second, because the Greek word for sexual immorality is the word pornea.   And you and I can't hear the word pornea without immediately thinking of porn. And so, I think it's fascinating that the root word for pornography is literally translated as sexual immorality. It's really an important thing.   But 1 Corinthians 6:18, again, it starts saying “Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside of the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.” And this means that sexual sin at its root is a problem of identity, which is, again, why you have to link that human sexuality with gospel identity.   Our aim cannot be for our children to make it to marriage having never had sex or never getting pregnant. To me, that's a low fruit. That is a low aim.   Our aim needs to be raising children with a gospel identity that is rooted in the creative and redemptive work of Jesus Christ and seeing the outgrowth from there.   Laura Dugger: (1:02:44 - 1:02:56) Wow. Well said. And if we boil all of this down, what is just one action step that you first recommend for anyone who finishes this message today?   Janelle Rupp: (1:02:57 - 1:04:19) Yeah, I'm going to give you a three-in-one just tying back to those three key regularly statements. One of the primary resources that I love to recommend in terms of educating ourselves is for parents to go to axis.org. That is A-X-I-S dot org, and sign up to receive their free Culture Translator weekly newsletter. And that will be sent to your email on a weekly basis for free.   And it gives a whole rundown of what's been happening in teen culture for that week. And just by simply opening up your email, you're going to start educating yourself. And they also have a host of other excellent resources and podcasts and a ton of material on their website that I would recommend.   But that's just one little step. And then for the enter in, I would recommend scheduling a date now. Put it on your calendar.   Find a time to take your child on a shopping date, an ice cream date, so that you can begin to enter into their lives and keep building that relationship with them. And then lastly, between now and that date, just open up God's Word. Reflect on the grace of God.   Let it wash over your heart. Let it wash over your mind. Get engaged with worship.   All of those will equip you well to do that hard work of entering in with your child when you meet them for that date.   Laura Dugger: (1:04:20 - 1:04:29) I've loved this chat so much. And if anybody's wondering about

Galatians 5:22-23 NLT "But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!"   *Transcription Below*   Hi, I'm Emily Johnson. I am a homeschool mama of two beautiful kiddos, married to my high school sweetheart, and the owner of Gracious Healing, a online nutritional practice that works with families to get to the root of their health issues with a holistic view and approach. I deeply love Jesus and pursue Him in all that I do, including health.  After walking through decades of undiagnosed health issues, I was lead to the world of functional medicine and eventually into the holistic health world. After finding support for my body and that of my kids (who have been on their own health journeys) I was able to pursue further education and began working with clients on a 1:1 basis, to help them find the hope and health that I have found.   Emily's Website   Questions and Topics We Cover: Another topic of health is pursuing the opposite of isolation, which is relationships. What does friendship do to us, even at a hormonal or bio-physical level? Will you share all your wisdom on the topic of nutrition? What other health topics have we not yet covered that you want to mention as we get started?   Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 254 Raising Healthy Children with Dr. Charles Fay   Additional Savvy Sauce Episodes Related to Healthy Living: 3. Being intentional with our health, finances, and relationships with business leader, writer, and speaker, Elizabeth Dixon 14. Simple Changes for Healthier Living with Chick-fil-A Wellness Experts, Vasu Thorpe and Leslie Sexton 23. Nurturing Friendships With Harvard Graduate, Jackie Coleman 25. Leadership Principles and Practices with Former NFL Player, J Leman 81. Sacred Rest with Doctor, Wife, Mother, and Author, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith 251. Wintering and Embracing Holy Hygge with Jamie Erickson 256. Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:40) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.   Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGM.com.   As I mentioned last time, my amazing guest, Emily Johnson, had so much goodness to share that we decided to split this episode into two parts, so I'm going to make sure that you first go back to part one before you listen to this episode today.   But I'm looking forward now to continuing the chat about nutritional benefits and soul benefits and relational benefits in our health and the health in our children with my returning guest, Emily Johnson. Another topic that's health-related is pursuing the opposite of isolation, which is relationships. So, Emily, what does friendship do to us or do to our children, even at hormonal levels and biophysical levels?   Emily Johnson: (1:40 - 8:39) Yeah, yeah. So, you know, when I was really, really, really sick, from a pretty young age on, and then I had kids really young, and so my kids had some health issues. I was sick. I felt so isolated, and I really, really, really was discouraged when people would speak about community.   You have to be in community, right? And all the sermons and different things, books, these great books are like, you have to be in community, and I'm like, I don't know how to do that with where I'm at. I don't have, I barely have capacity, right, to like feed my children and like get out of bed most days.   How in the world am I supposed to like go find community? And so, I think that, one, I always go back to, for those people who do struggle, and they are in a season where community is tough, right? I always, I love the saying, where the ideal lacks, grace abounds, and there's something beautiful that happens within that, right?   So just to speak to that, because I feel like so many women I walk with have had seasons in their life, or whether it's health-related, or their kids, or just there, you know. Mom home with four young kids, and they just don't have capacity, or their single mom with four kids, and they're working full-time. Right, they just don't have great capacity for community. I always want to plug that reminder in that there are seasons, and God's grace always abounds beyond what is ideal. But then we take it too ideal, right?   And we say, what does that actually look like? And we were made for community, right? We see all the fun videos of the little kids who are like the babies who were in the womb together, right?   And you come out, and they're still like touching, right? We were made for connection. There's something really, really amazing that happens from a cellular level.   When we are, when we are hugged, right, you see some of those neurosciences of like, you need to hug for six seconds a day, because it'll increase your endorphins, you know, and so there's this beautiful thing. There is, in certain science communities, there is a thing called biofield, right? And so it's kind of this idea that from six feet out from me in any direction, I kind of have this like space, like there's a spatial awareness that most of us have about six feet like outside of our bodies.   And when you kind of like, you know, when you're like somebody walks up behind you, and you just know somebody's behind you, even though you haven't turned around or heard them necessarily, but there's just this awareness that they're there. And that is just, I think, so ingrained in who we are to be in community, because we actually have been created not for isolation, but we've been created even with this biofilm biofield idea that we actually get to when people are around us, right, there's an energy that happens, right? When my kid is sick, there's like this energy transfer that happens when my kiddo is sick, and their energy is low, their overall body is just depleted, right?   When I hold them and touch them, there's actually can be like this cool transfer that happens from an electrical perspective that actually boosts them back up, right? Why do we hold babies skin on skin? Because there is that super, super crucial need for connection.   One of my favorite studies I always refer to is a heart map study, where they took babies and mom, and they hooked mom and baby up to like heart monitors. They had mom just kind of like go through her natural day. Right, really smiley, happy, and they kind of watch baby match mom's heartbeat completely like in sync. And then they said, “Okay mom, like start running, like don't change your facial expression or your tone, but start running through all the like scary things that you have going on, right, and all the worries and fears and all the things.”   And they watch mom's heart rate level start coming up, and then they watch baby's heart rate level start coming up, right? Like we were just designed from the womb to connect with people. Then they found those who they ran some studies on who had moms who were super depressed, right? They weren't in connection.   They had whatever lives, whatever circumstances led to this, those kiddos didn't have the kind of intense one-on-one connection, maybe that another kid did. And just watching that those kids had a harder time empathizing and being around other people, right? So, like this idea that from the womb we were designed to be connected to one another, that there is something ingrained in our soul, right?   That the Lord put there that deeply, we deeply want community, but beyond community we want to be known and seen and loved, right? And obviously the ultimate desire is to be known and seen and loved by God the Father, but at a lesser level like we have been created to see that in one another and champion one another and encourage one another, right? One of my favorite Bible stories is when Moses is holding his hands up, right?   And as long as his arms are up, the Israelites are winning, but the minute his arm starts to fall, and then you know you have Aaron and her have to come lift his arms up, and he sits down and they're the ones holding his arms. And I just think that is such a picture of when we have this vision of what God's called us to, and kind of whether that be a mom or a specific vocation or a specific ministry, when we have been called as women to do that, but yet there's these seasons where we're like we're still trying really hard to do that, but I'm so wiped out and tired, right? You need those people around you who are going to go hold your arms up so that the battle doesn't break.   The battle is not going to stop whether you drop your arms or not, it's still going to keep going. And so, when we look at that from just again, like a metabolic perspective, we see that heart rates come down, right? We see someone super, super anxious in isolation, they go into a community where they feel seen and known and loved, and their body comes into this beautiful, restful, parasympathetic state, right?   I would say a caveat to that is a little bit of picking your community well, because I think that the opposite is true. You go into a community where everyone's naggy and negative and discouraging, and you will walk away feeling gross and weary and tired, right? And it doesn't necessarily...   Good community is what again boosts your soul, but it actually... I had a client, it was my favorite story, is we were having a hard time getting her blood sugar stable, and we were kind of trying all these things, and then she went and hung out with her girlfriend, and she was super tired that day, it had been a really, really stressful week, goes and hangs out with her girlfriend outside, right? Letting the kids play at the park, and that's all she did.   And her blood sugar, she took her blood sugar, and her blood came perfectly back into balance, right? And just, we need community for every metabolic process, honestly.   Laura Dugger: (8:40 - 9:27) That is incredible, and it is such a powerful truth, because I'd love to also talk about handling, managing, minimizing stress, which is important, but I think the enemy, our enemy, Satan, wants to convince us that if you're stressed, just power through, whereas like you said, God's inviting us into community with Him and with others. He's created us to need both, and that that is even more important, that trumps the stress and may even help us diminish the stress. So, I know it's not helpful for us to hear, you just need to lower your stress in your life, but how can we actually do that, and why is it beneficial?   Emily Johnson: (9:28 - 14:18) Yeah, so, we talked a little bit earlier about just kind of the idea of fight and flight, and I think one of the things that you see a lot in the world of holistic medicine is just looking at the nervous system. Because if I, everything that we're kind of bringing in is create, like our brains are always hyper vigilant and always looking at, is this safe? Is this not safe? So, you have somebody who is always stressed, always anxious, always running, running, running, running.   Your brain is kind of almost starting to get primed to think everything is dangerous, everything is a lie, and everything I need to be afraid of, right? And so, when we're constantly in that place, you never really, you're sleeping, just because you go to sleep, people are like, I sleep six hours a night. I'm like, you're unconscious six hours of the night. Are you actually getting restored sleep?   Or are you just running, running, running, and then you go to sleep. Yeah, you're unconscious, because your body's like, I'm exhausted, but is your mind actually calming down? Is your heart rate coming down, right? And so, when you look at the overall, every process of the body, there's so much that is related to nervous system, right?   Your breath, like we're not thinking about our hearts beating right now, or our lungs opening and closing. But our nervous system is, right? Our nervous system is always assessing and communicating.   And so, every sound we hear, every noise we come in contact with, every smell, light, right? All of it is having to be processed through that. And so, when you look at that, I would say there's a lot of stress in life that we can't control.   We're always looking, it's kind of like, you know, going on a bear hunt when they're like, we can't go under it, we can't go over it, we have to go through it. There's a lot of stress in life. That we just have to plow through.   I can't help my special needs kid, like I can't take that away, right? I can't help my marriage that's struggling. I can't necessarily run, I can't just like move around, you know, the financial struggles or whatever.   I can't always control everything, but I often go back to, but what can we control? Because when we kind of get into a place where we understand, I can't heal or be functionally healthy if I don't feel safe. So, do I feel safe, right?   And again, I can't control everything, but I often can sit with Jesus, and he will help me change the perspective of it. And so, when we look at how we, right, stress is going to put a huge burden on every organ system. Stress is going to put a huge burden on our adrenals.   Most of us know that kind of specifically, but it's going to put a huge stress on our nervous system. And so, where we can minimize stress, where it is within our control is always the best place to start, right? Again, sometimes simple things like unplugging your Wi-Fi will limit your metabolic stress, eating protein, right?   Eating good whole foods, not being dehydrated. Those are all things that are going to limit. Those are all most of the time within the stress that we can control, right?   I can control being on my phone, which has crazy blue light. And then right before I go to bed, which is going to like create a whole issue with my circadian rhythm. Like I can control putting my phone away.   I can control how I breathe and how I get outside. And so, minimizing stress, being in community with friends that are encouraging you and lifting you up, like those type of things are all things that we often can control at some level in order to help minimize that stress that way. Because the point I think of is the whole of health in general, right?   We know 2 Corinthians chapter four is my favorite because it's like we're all wasting away and this body is going to waste away. So, what is the point of this, right? And the point of it, I believe, is resilience to some degree.   Do we understand the processes of our body? Are we actively working to create some resilience? So, things don't knock us out, right?   You have some people, they'll get real sick, or they'll get into a car accident or something. And it's not major from the world's perspective, but metabolically it is enough stress and trauma that their whole system shuts down. Right?   Like the goal is that we are always renewing our spirit, but we're always working towards resiliency. And so, the more we can minimize stress, the better resiliency, every part of our body from a nervous system perspective, all the way down to a cellular perspective, it's going to function better and have more resiliency. So, when stress does come that we can't control, we can handle it better and not, it doesn't blow us over so quickly.   Laura Dugger: (14:18 - 15:59) And now a brief message from our sponsor, Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Burchie family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Steven's grandfather; Sam Leman opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago. If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed.   They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did with honesty and integrity. Sam and Steven understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle free as possible.   They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. I've known Sam and Steven and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today.   Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread. So, come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Steven would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.   Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Okay, Emily, everything you've said so far is gold. But there's a huge piece of our health, which is nutrition. And as we're training our children on healthy nutrition, I just love to hear all your wisdom on this topic.   So, take it where you'd like.   Emily Johnson: (16:00 - 24:16) Yeah, okay. Nutrition is part of my story, is actually nutrition was the thing that got me in the store that I write. I had so many crazy health things.   I remember asking a doctor at one point, like, will, if I change my diet, will that help? And he was like, no, right? That's not going to help your seizures. That's not going to help your allergies. That's not going to help all the stress, right? And all the things that you have.   And, which, by the way, right, to kind of go back to the stress thing, the amount of times that people who are really truly unhealthy are told it's just in your head, it's just stress, right? It's, it's crazy. So, I feel like there's that level of like, do what you can to deal with the stress, but also, you're not crazy.   If something doesn't feel right, it's probably not right. And you're probably not just so stressed that right, there's a level that is true that we can control, but then sometimes it has nothing to do with what you're doing. Just a little snippet in there.   Just because I think that can be so helpful for moms to hear sometimes it's okay. It's not all in your head, you're not making it up. But when we look at nutrition, when I started diving into it, I always joke that I was going to write a book that said like, it started with paleo, right?   Because we dove into this world of paleo. And all of a sudden, all these symptoms that I had been told I was going to live with forever, all of a sudden started disappearing. And I was like, I don't need my inhaler anymore.   I don't have seizures anymore. I'm sleeping better. I feel better.   My puffiness is gone, like all because I changed my diet like this. Why in the world did no one tell me this sooner? Right?   Which is crazy. So, when you look at again, nutrition, and we're saying what did God give us and all the different levels of nutrition, you can look at macronutrients. So, that's your protein, your carbohydrates and your fat.   Those when we look at metabolic processes, those are like our big three that we want to get in every meal to kind of keep that fire burning, right? So, from a metabolic perspective, you want metabolism is so huge in hormones, metabolism is huge in our weight, and how we feel and just energy levels in general. And so, when you're getting good protein, good carbs, good healthy fats.   And obviously, with all of these, right, there can be not so great proteins and not so great carbs, right? We're like, “Oh, I ate a cinnamon roll.” I'm like, well, not probably your best carbohydrate.   But so, when I talk about these things, what I'm always meaning is God made food, right? God food that is in its closest to full nature, right? And obviously, we've altered food over the years.   But to the best of our ability, what grows in the ground, what grows on the earth is what I'm talking about. I'm not necessarily processed food, even things like Siete chips, right? Those things are like, yes, their ingredients are better, but still processed, right?   Crackers, I don't care if they're gluten free, they're still processed. And so, when we talk about this, we're talking about just whole food, God food, right? And so, it doesn't matter what you have doesn't matter, the health situations, you have kind of the background you're coming from, everyone can on a fundamental foundational level, look at their nutrition and say, food is the building block to my health.   So, when I give again, we kind of talked a lot about nervous system and information, when I give the body good nutrition through what I'm eating, it is going to help every cell of the body right function and thrive. And when we're getting those good nutrients in, you're going to get all those you're looking at the big macros, but then we're looking at the micronutrients, you know, so, a lot of people talk about magnesium and calcium, right?   And so, all those are, you know, selenium, vitamin D, right, not necessarily synthetic form, but in so many of our foods, these nutrients are in abundance when you eat whole foods, right.   And so, I feel like for so many people one of the best things because food can also become this really, really, really scary topic. I always say if you want to tick somebody off, talk about their money and talk about what they're eating. Because everyone's like, now I'm mad.   Now you're not my friend, right? How dare you talk about what I'm putting in my mouth. And I think there's a really interesting spiritual component to what we see all throughout Israelites, right?   And just how they grumbled because their bellies were driving the train, right? Like God is literally giving them manna from heaven, his glory, like food, the angels food is on the ground. And they're like, I want to go back into captivity because they had leeks and watermelon, right?   And it's like, this isn't a new thing. Food is really hard and can be really scary for people to talk about because we are really honestly controlled by our stomachs more than most of us would like to admit. And so, when we look at food in general and nutrition, and we're being really honest with ourselves, right?   We don't want to be in a place of fear. That's I think the biggest thing with all the holistic space, just like this health realm is sometimes we trade like Western medicine for which we're afraid, like we're fearful and that like I, you know, we have to take antibiotics. We don't want to get, um, we don't want the strep throat to get out of control.   But then we run to this holistic side and we're like, well, I don't want to take the antibiotics. I'm afraid my gut microbiome is going to be all mess. I'm like either side, you're still walking in fear.   God's word tells us to not be afraid, right? This is the point of this is, is to empower us to make us stand in awe of our creator who made all of this in such abundance for our good. He created all of our bodies, right?   He created every mechanism, every cell. So, of course he's going to give us the nutrition in the food that we eat in order to help support those natural functions of the body when we eat food that he's created. Right.   And so, I say that with food because I think most people we can dive down, right? Some people do need very specific diets for short period of time to create better function in their body. Maybe they have an overgrowth of something and certain foods are not helping them kind of achieve that overall kind of thriving stability.   But for most of us, my favorite thing when it comes to nutrition is to go back to Philippians chapter four, right? What is good? What is true?   What is lovely? What is pure, right? And when we're focusing on that part of nutrition, we are just undone, right?   How do you combat fear? You stand in awe. And when we can stand in awe of how God created an egg, right?   Like we get to consume an egg, and an egg isn't just protein fat. It also is vitamin D and selenium, right? And all these other micro macro nutrients that we get to consume.   And all of a sudden, right, we're taught to sit and pray and thank God for our food. And we're like, but what does that mean? We're just pausing and taking a deep breath, which is there is some really interesting health studies that have agreed with that, right?   And they're like, you need to pause and breathe every time before you eat to better further digestion. But what are we actually doing? Are we teaching our children, like, look at this asparagus and this chicken breast that you get to eat?   Do you understand how intentional our God is that he made this food with such nutrient packed availability for you to be able to function right within your body. So, when we look at every part of the body, every process of the body, we need good information, right? Good food to be able to come in to support that.   And I think most people, when we use nutrition, you don't need your multivitamins, you don't need some of these things like food is fundamental. I always say supplements should be supplemental. They're supplemental, getting you where you need to go.   But nutrition is the foundation, the building blocks the road, right? It's paving the way to health.   Laura Dugger: (24:17 - 24:40) Okay, that is so well said. But then I'm even thinking, what are some examples of you've talked about the egg and the chicken and asparagus. So, will you share maybe we'll start here a way to get our kids involved.   I know you've shared something that you do with the farmer's market. Can you tell us that story? And then maybe give a few ideas for healthy snacks or meals.   Emily Johnson: (24:41 - 31:13) Yeah. And I do like Instagram, my website, I have I feel like I have lots of information. And honestly, maybe I could even share with you some of the handouts that I give and you could just put it in people are welcome to have them.   Because I love getting kids involved. It depends on your kiddos age depends on how you want to approach this potentially, right. So, when my kids were super little, we all we did a lot of rainbows, like, are we eating the rainbow?   And so, you know, we'd have like, I have a chart that we laminated. And you know, we'd be like, okay, here's your day how you know, maybe you get a sticker at the end of the day or something if you ate the rainbow. And so, that would be for younger kids.   That's super fun. Sometimes for older kids, kind of that who need to say like, high school necessarily, but when they're kind of in the like, end of elementary, maybe junior high ish, depending on how they're wired, and depending on parenting skills, I will have some other ones that are like, if you eat protein, fat and carb, now you can have maybe another choice that you would like, right. So, for my daughter, that might look like you need protein carbs, you know, like, let's say you're going to have protein, which is, again, I have some great handouts that are like, here's kind of a chunk of protein, right.   So, that might look like steak, eggs, or chicken, or ground beef, or, you know, bison patty, or we actually love Force of Nature, they make a really great ancestral blend. So, you're getting like liver, heart, all that stuff, and it's ground in ground beef. So, your kids don't necessarily know they're eating organ meats, but we'll do like little patties or something, right, keep it simple.   I feel like some of the most challenging things with nutrition is people want to really overcomplicate it. And if you're just thinking protein, animal protein, you get one of those, right, you grab on to like, maybe it's like, okay, now you need some salad, which is going to be, you know, maybe some less of good carbs, because you're throwing in zucchini and cucumber, and you're making a green salad, you know, with a few nuts in it, you know, and drizzling some olive oil on it. homemade dressings, I think are probably the probably the most complicated thing that I get to, just because it's easier to leave out all the bad ingredients in homemade dressing.   But there's some decent dressings out there, right? So, that's your fat. So, you do all that.   And then I'm like, now, if you want, like, maybe we'll have little snacks around the house that might be like, some healthy chocolate versions, right? And it's like, now, if you want a treat, you can, but you have to eat protein, carb and fat first, right? That type of thing.   So, there's different checklists, different things that you can do. We years ago, when my kids were super little, we actually started a list. And there, I think Dr. Walls is the one I originally got this from where she was like, you need to eat close to 300 different varieties within a year, right?   Because, again, kind of thinking back before refrigeration, before we were able to cart food places, we would have eaten a variety based on what was local to you that was growing in this season. Rright, which meant we didn't eat the same thing every single week, we had a lot of variety, I think diversity within the diet is also so important. Again, I think it's a further down the road, right? So, if you're like just starting in this journey, just getting yourself to whole foods is a great place to start.   If you're further along, the next thing we do is diversity, how many different foods. So, our goal one year was to get 300 different varieties, which doesn't sound like a lot until you actually start writing it down. We're like, cucumbers one. Okay, we eat a lot of cucumber, right?   Okay, tomatoes. Okay, well, that's two, right. And then so, one of the things that we had done when they were little was, we would go to the farmer's market.   And we would kind of think, our area and I think a lot of areas are really increasing in kind of this idea of farmers market's over the last few years, which is really cool. My kids were really little, we had one farmer's market, like, and so, we would go there once a week. They had to pick out one new vegetable or fruit that they had never tried before, whatever it looks like, right. And if they could get it on a color of the rainbow that was hard to consume, right, there's some colors of the rainbow, like purple, that's not always super easy to necessarily consume outside of grapes, you know, or any plant.   And they're like, Okay, what other purple options are there. And so, if you could find purple cauliflower, right, then that was like, the best thing because you found a color and a new food, maybe that we hadn't tried. Purple potatoes, right, if you could try even if it was like a food that we already had tried, but it was a different color of that food, right carrots, different things like that, that you could have different varieties of color, then that would count as well.   So, that was kind of one way that we and it's works outside of farmers markets are just going to the grocery store going to a different grocery store. And looking Is there anything in the produce section that we haven't tried before. It can be a good place start sometimes you have to like Google what in the world it is. How you write that was like our, we started off like I remember googling, how do you cut a mango, like I didn't even like I did not grow up eating this way. And so, everything was very new.   I didn't know how to eat anything but iceberg lettuce or canned corn as a vegetable. And, you know, learning and so, again, bite sized pieces, right? Easy plus one, my kids do classical, we do a classical model for education.   And I love one of the things they had done when they were little. In their writing was an idea of easy plus one. And I feel like this always applies to almost everything in life.   But nutrition is one of those where I'm like, don't get overwhelmed. Because it took me and my family years to get to where we are. It wasn't like an overnight thing, right?   It's been a 13-year journey for us, which sounds like a lot when you actually like look at what we eat. And you're like, it took us 13 years to change out things. And it's always evolving, because my kids are older.   So, now they're aware of things they weren't aware of when they were little. But easy plus one, right? What do we already have, swap it out for something new.   It doesn't have to be overwhelming.   Laura Dugger: (31:15 - 33:12) I love that easy plus one. And I'm even thinking of all these fresh ideas of how I plan to incorporate this into our homeschool because some of our daughters are interested in going on with culinary arts, and they love being in the kitchen. So, I think that's a great way to involve them.   By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles, and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them or watch them now that we're offering video rather than just audio.   So, we heard all of that. And we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com.   All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading.   But as you're talking about swaps, this is just kind of my personal journey this year.   I feel like God doesn't always give me a word of the year. But this year, I felt like he gave the word nourish, and even added to that as the year went on, nourishing and flourishing. And food is a big piece of that.   But also just tied in with all of this and helping our kids grow up in a healthy environment. What are some other product swaps that would be helpful for things that we're putting on our body, maybe makeup if they're older, or laundry detergent and different things like that.   Emily Johnson: (33:13 - 36:27) Yeah, I would say we I always feel like my encouragement is to start with what goes on your body. Right, sometimes and again, there's always grace. So, sometimes it's like just stop burning the candle in your house.   That's creating actually more toxins, it smells nice. So, anything that smells like fake fragrance is probably not going to be helpful to your system. But I would say that my next favorite is what are we putting on our body?   So, that's shampoos, conditioner, deodorant, lotions, makeup, laundry detergent, right, anything that would be like touching our skin, then the next thing out of that would be, I think there's a lot of fascinating information that has surfaced the last five years of just the importance of undergarments and what it does to the endocrine system. When we're not, you know, putting natural fibers on our skin, we're putting all these synthetic fibers. So, again, it's not like you can financially most of us go out and swap out everything.   And sometimes I still, like my girlfriend, I was just talking like, I kind of miss Tide. I miss the smell of Tide deodorant. Like I haven't used it for years.   But I still like there's something like emotional pride just from childhood that like just feels clean. Even though I know right that it's not. But when you look at all these different chemicals on the body, so, again, when we talk about stress, when we talk about nourishing, right, anything extra that goes on your skin absorbs, right, we forget that it's the largest organ of our body.   And it is absorbing all sorts of chemicals and endocrine disruptors, and creating more stress on our bodies, right, clogging our pores. When you think of that the lymphatic system, the lymphatic system is a huge system within the body that will push toxins around and help drain the body of kind of this overburden of toxic waste. And one of the biggest places, well, the biggest places for lymphatic movement is around your armpits, right?   And what do we do, we put on deodorant, which actually then doesn't allow our arms to sweat and to get that toxin out. And the next part is around the groin. And it's like, okay, what are you putting around the groin?   Are you putting synthetic fibers? Are you putting plastics? Are you putting things, toxins within your laundry detergent, right, that is then creating a disruption, right, the body's trying to release toxins.   And now you're either not letting it sweat it out, or you're actually putting other chemicals in those places where it's going to absorb even more, and make that lymphatic system even more backed up. So, I would say, a home like cleaning supplies and candles and fragrances, those are all really important. But again, if we're starting with absolutely ground zero, I tend to go what's on your skin first, what's touching your skin, moving away from that stuff is super helpful.   There's so many different apps, you know, I we started with, you know, the IW or the Oh, my goodness, I totally blanked on what that is called. The app. Oh, my goodness.   Oh, well, it'll come back.   Laura Dugger: (36:27 - 36:59) Maybe say more about I wonder if one that I've started with a girlfriend of mine, Rachel Allen, actually, her husband was a previous guest on The Savvy Sauce, Chris Allen, but she's very healthy and has been on this health journey for a while. And she showed me the Yuka app, the YUKA, which is great. It's she said, it's not perfect.   It's just helpful. It doesn't tell you if there's seed oils in food. So, that's a bummer.   But with products, if I am out shopping, and I scan a few, it'll tell which is a better option.   Emily Johnson: (37:00 - 37:56) Yeah, so, that's a good one. IWD was the one that we originally started with, you know, 10 years ago. And so, that can be helpful when you just don't know, right?   And you're in the store. And you're like, I always buy this, you know, and you kind of scan it and see what pops up. But that can be helpful.   But I would say in general, again, looking at just reading ingredients, if you can understand the ingredients, and you're like, oh, this is beef tallow, and, you know, some essential oils, and baking soda, right? Like, that's probably okay, you know, versus the like, I don't know these ingredients. These are a long list of ingredients.   And I have no idea how to even pronounce them. So, apps can be helpful. My preference is to encourage us as much as we can, right, to get away from electronics.   And I think that sometimes it's hard when we're like, so, scanning apps can be helpful. But also, just reading ingredients can be helpful.   Laura Dugger: (37:59 - 38:12) That's great. And again, just to kind of jumpstart us, do you have any favorite brands to recommend? Or even on your website?   Is there a place where you talk about swaps that we can link to?   Emily Johnson: (38:13 - 39:44) Yeah, so, on my website, and I'm constantly trying to update this, as best I can, because again, a lot of this started for me almost 13 years ago. And so, so much has changed in 13 years. So, I'm constantly trying to stay up with the new things, because we all know that anytime something becomes a buzzword, all of a sudden, all these companies jump out of the blue.   We're in the world of the and are they good, you know, and so, being able to kind of, obviously, now, there's so much more happening so quickly. So, on my website, I have a blog post that's just like getting started. And that I just keep trying to add to it.   I find books or information or podcasts that I think are helpful in this realm. It kind of breaks it down. Do you want to read a book?   Do you want to listen to a podcast? Do you want to me and some of my girlfriends did like a whole series on different parts of the body and just different things. And like, that's all links there.   So, just whether you want to watch something, read something, listen to something, there's lots of information there. And then on my website, I have lots of different like my favorite things. And those are just some of my favorite products.   There's great products out there just because it's on not on there doesn't mean it's not great. But there's a lot of products that I really used to love, and that they don't make the products either the same that they used to or they have disbanded over the years, right. And so, just because it's not on there doesn't mean it's still a lot of great products.   But I try to update that if I find something I really love, I will try to update those two spots on my website.   Laura Dugger: (39:45 - 39:56) Well, definitely want to link to that in the show notes. But can you give us your website name and just tell more about in general all the work that you do and what you have to offer if we want to follow up after this conversation?   Emily Johnson: (39:56 - 41:56) Yeah, so, my website is mygracioushealing.com. Between my website, I have an email list. But then I also do a lot on social media, Instagram specifically.   So, my handle over there is gracious.healing. Try just to give lots of tips and lots of trying to reclaim some of that social media space to let it be more encouraging and not fear based. But hopefully, try to kind of clue people in on just things that I'm learning and things I see in my clients. I do have a one-on-one practice called gracious healing.   And it is we just work bio individual with, I started off with children, and then I've obviously moved to moms. And now I'm kind of treating most whole families. But I love working with families just because it's sometimes easier because you already know so much history and everything.   But our goal in doing one-on-one nutrition clients is we're looking at lifestyle history, symptoms, we're looking at personality, we're looking at all the ways God created you, and where is their dysfunction on labs? Or, again, we're not thriving, right? Someone might be tired, but what does that mean?   Is it a soul issue, a heart issue, a mental issue? Is it you're not getting enough rest? Do you need more nutrition, that kind of stuff.   So, we look at all of that, and really holistically, and then we break down a road plan, how are we going to get you there, you're in the driver's seat, I'm just trying to help you navigate what nutrition might you need, what kind of steps might you need, in terms of supplementation, diet recommendations, lifestyle pieces. And we kind of address all of that with kind of a game plan of follow ups and what that looks like. My goal is for people to not need me forever.   So, our goal is to help as much as clients want to be discipled and learn all of this, so that then they can get to where they feel they're truly thriving, and then they can run off into the world that God has for them.   Laura Dugger: (41:56 - 42:24) I love that. Thank you for sharing that. And I will definitely link to that in the show notes.   And I just have a couple more questions for you, because I want to make sure, even as you talk about meeting with your clients, and it's very bio individual. So, maybe there's not an answer to this. But is there anything in general, any other health principles or even supplements that you do see, generally speaking, this would be beneficial to everyone?   Anything that we haven't covered yet?   Emily Johnson: (42:25 - 45:21) Yeah, so, I'd say at this point, the only two supplement companies that I feel like can be pretty helpful for most people. One is called Core Formulas. They are just kind of basic, like nothing they're doing is crazy detox, nothing they're doing is like killing anything.   They're just really supporting the body from a nutritional standpoint. So, you're thinking drainage, gut support, and vitamin support. So, they're pretty basic companies, like most people kind of look on their website, determine if that's something that would be helpful for them.   And then the other one would be body bio. So, BodyBio is a great company that focuses specifically on cellular health. And so, you're going to have electrolytes, you're going to have some good kind of fatty acids, right?   When we look at the cell, we need four to one omega six to omega three, a lot of us focus on omega three, because they're just aren't great sources for omega six. And so, they make some really great companies that really look at the cellular level, the mitochondria level, being able their products are really based on that you're not going to have again, crazy detox supplements. So, most people can tolerate at least to a small degree, I always say it's individual, you should always kind of look at who you are, what you have, what your goals are.   Because again, sometimes I think we hear things and we're like, oh, this is the roadmap, I need to detox, I need to liver do a liver blast, I need to do all these things. And that may not be true, right. And so, the ability in this day and age to just be able to chew and spit right, like what information is helpful, spit out what's not, and then maybe tuck away in my brain what might be helpful down the road.   Yeah, I think that those companies are the only companies I ever feel confident being like, most people would benefit from kind of playing around with those products. Yep, I don't think I think everything we talked about just feels super fundamental and foundational. I think encouraging people to really know where they're not thriving and to be really honest and raw with themselves as to what they are, what God has for them and where they're maybe not stewarding or operating fully right with the knowledge they have in those places. I think can be really helpful.   It's kind of like going on a trip without a destination, right? Like you're just kind of wandering. And I feel like this stuff is so beautiful and so wonderful to incorporate in our lives.   But if we don't actually have a picture of what we're trying to achieve in the process, I feel like we kind of just get tossed around. And so, while this stuff is all wonderful and the nutrition and focusing on I think if we don't really know where we're trying to go with it, then it can just get really muddied.   Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 46:11) I think that's so good to talk about purpose and be aware. And I love this conversation how you've incorporated for us as the parent, but also for our children. And I will link to one other episode as well with Dr. Charles Fay, where he talks about raising emotionally healthy and mentally healthy children. He wrote a book with Dr. Amen. And in the episode, he just talked about instilling purpose in our children and talking about that, because God does have a purpose for them as well. And so, I love how you're bringing all of this back as you've done so well shining your faith throughout this conversation.   But Emily, you know, we are called The Savvy Sauce, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Emily Johnson: (46:13 - 46:57) Yeah, you I knew this question was coming. And honestly, I was like, how do I pick just one? So, I think this is what I'm going to say.   Discipline equals freedom. And I have just found for me that kind of that savvy sauce, and it may change that discipline may change over a period of time. But if I can get real honest with what I need to be disciplined in in the moment, it gives me so much freedom for the rest of my day.   And so, being disciplined it used to feel constraining. And now it actually feels like, I don't have to think about right. Decision fatigue is a real thing.   And so, if I can just be disciplined, there's so much freedom that happens in my day with that.   Laura Dugger: (46:57 - 47:32) Wow, I love that so much. And I love how self-control I think of self-discipline as a fruit of the spirit. And that's what I've experienced.   You've cultivated that fruit in your life. And we've gotten to experience the good sweet fruit in this conversation and the abundant life that you're living in the overflow. So, thank you for walking this journey while stewarding all of this well and sharing so generously with each of us.   You are just a delight to spend time with. So, thank you for being my guest.   Emily Johnson: (47:32 - 47:35) Yes, thank you. Oh my goodness, such kind words.   Laura Dugger: (47:36 – 51:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

John 14:16-17 (AMP)2 Timothy 4:7 (KJV, AMP)1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (NIV)John 16:13 (NIV)Romans 8:14 (AMPC)John 15:4 (The Message)1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (AMPC)John 14:26 (The Passion)

275. Raising Healthy Kids Free Tips with Emily Johnson   Exodus 31:3 NIV "and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—"   *Transcription Below*   Emily Johnson is a homeschool mama who married her high school sweetheart, and she's now additionally the owner of Gracious Healing, which is an online nutritional practice that works with families to get to the root of their health issues with a holistic view and approach. Emily has so much goodness to share to encourage each of us about our own health and also how we can pass these healthy habits along to our children.   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sue Neihouser Team   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09) Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:29) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to the Sue Neihouser team for sponsoring this episode.   If you're looking to buy or sell a home this season, make sure you reach out to Sue at 309-229-8831. Sue would love to walk alongside you as you unlock new doors. You are in for a treat today.   My fabulous guest is Emily Johnson. She's a homeschool mama who married her high school sweetheart, and she's now additionally the owner of Gracious Healing, which is an online nutritional practice that works with families to get to the root of their health issues with a holistic view and approach. Emily has so much goodness to share to encourage each of us about our own health and also how we can pass these healthy habits along to our children.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Emily.   Emily Johnson: (1:29 - 1:31) Thank you so much for having me.   Laura Dugger: (1:32 - 1:46) I'm so excited to chat with you today, and I'd love for you just to start off by vision casting the biblical reasons for pursuing a healthy life, both for ourselves and for our family.   Emily Johnson: (1:47 - 3:22) Yeah, I feel like this is a question that I have wrestled with a lot, right, because there's so much depth to this, and so, obviously in a short podcast we're trying to like paint the picture. I think the best way I can paint this picture without really going into like deep theology is just this idea that when we have a big picture of the destiny that God has for us and our children. We want to steward every part of our lives, including our health, to be able to run after all that he has for us, right?   If He came to give us life abundantly, that doesn't always look like maybe this Western view of abundance. When we kind of approach our health in the same way we do our finances and our resources and steward them well. I find that that big picture actually helps kind of keep us on this path of like, right, my kids may love McDonald's, maybe want to go to McDonald's all the time, but the reality is I believe that I know who God created them to be, and I believe that he has this destiny over them, and so, if I allow them to steward their bodies poorly in a way that makes them sick and tired, then they're not able to run after that destiny fully, and then, right, there's this limitation, and so, to have this idea of abundance, this whole holistic view, is that we steward our mind, our hearts, our spirits, our bodies, it's all one, and if we steward that according to God's Word, then we just get to run with him in such a way that just brings joy in life.   That is so opposite, I think, then what happens when we're sick and tired and depleted.   Laura Dugger: (3:23 - 4:00) That's a good word, and I think all of this information, you do such a great job with all of your work running it through the lens of parenting so, we can help our kids, but it's helpful even for me to remember everything that's healthy for our children is also healthy for us as the parents, and so, I appreciate that reminder, but I'd love to just go through some various areas and see if you even have quick tips to get us started for ideas, so, we'll just begin very basic, even water and hydration. Can you just lay the groundwork here?   Emily Johnson: (4:01 - 11:08) Yeah, so, to backtrack a little bit to what you said, because I think it's super important, I firmly believe that in most things, there's always a caveat to some things, but in almost everything, you can't give what you don't have, so, how do we give our children health and a big picture and asking them to steward something when we ourselves don't have the experience of what that means, and so, I think that it's a whole family affair, but often we are the gatekeepers, so, as parents, if we are not open and willing to understand health and wellness, then how do we ask our kids to do that, and so, I feel like that's just kind of so often it starts with mom, honestly, so, kind of running into water, hydration, there are so many pillars, right, you can look at all sorts of different practitioners out there, health, kind of all sides, whether you're looking at kind of Western medicine, or you're looking at more traditional, like Eastern medicine, or you're looking at holistic, functional, right, everybody's going to have the like seven, eight pillars to health. I think that almost everyone would agree within those pillars are going to be different, but almost everyone has hydration as a pillar, right, and why do we need hydration as a pillar?   We are, our bodies are so, there's so many facets and different mechanisms within the body, but so much of it depends upon hydration, and if the cell has enough water and electricity, right, to operate and continue those processes, I feel like so often when we look at hydration, just, we just are, and it's not so much just drinking water, right, some people are like, I just am not drinking enough water to stay hydrated, and that is a huge factor, but when we look at hydration and just what happens when the cell doesn't have enough water, and you're just, right, your body is depleted of that hydration, you will, right, be more tired, I feel like, again, disease kind of sets in quicker, that cell doesn't have the capacity to do what it's supposed to do, and bowels move slower, right, you, your skin is more dry and cracked, like there's just so many different facets of detox and flushing things out that are dependent upon hydration, but I think that we have to look at one, how much water are we drinking? I think some people, everything in health I have found is truly that Goldilocks approach, sometimes we want to take something and we want to run with it and be like, well, if a little is good, a lot's better, right, and it's often this approach of like, what is really best for you and your body and your system? So, when we look at water, we want to be well hydrated from just the metabolic perspective, but with that, we're looking at how much water are you drinking and what is in your water, right, so, if you have somebody who's drinking super contaminated water, it's going to be adding toxins as they're adding water, right, and so, we want to look at what kind of water are we drinking, then we want to say like, how much water, right, there's a kind of a general rule of thumb that people jump off of and they would say, half of your body weight in ounces is a good place to start. I say that's true for most people under certain conditions, if you are somebody who is, right, sometimes I will find that people will drink a hundred plus ounces of water a day, but then they're drinking just as much coffee and energy drinks along with it, and so, you're like, that's a lot of pressure on your kidneys to have to flush out all of that liquid, and then you have somebody who is potentially eating very processed food, right, that processed food, so, we think anytime we take what we're going to say is like man food or God food in the way God created, right, so, God created water to be enriched with minerals, structured water, you find it in nature when water is like running over a brook and like hitting those rocks and kind of moving that becomes almost electrical within it, and so, when you look at how God created the water and we see that is what's best for our bodies, now we backtrack and we say whenever we take something that God created and we kind of make a man version of it, it often requires more nutrients within our bodies to process that, so, when you have like processed food that's void of hydration, void of nutrients, it's going to actually require your body to take the reserves that it has to process that thing within the body, so, hydration is no different, right, when we're eating really whole good foods that are full of water content, right, like watermelon, cucumbers, chicken, ground beef, right, if we're not overcooking things, it should hold moisture in those foods, so, when we're eating whole foods, we're actually getting hydration, right, when we're drinking herbal teas, we're getting good minerals and hydration, and so, I say a lot of people it's like okay, yes, do the like half your body weight in ounces for an average person, but also take into account are you somebody who's sweating a lot and you're just constantly working in an environment where you're dripping with or you're an athlete, you're probably gonna need more than that, are you a person who eats really good whole nutrient-dense food and you don't eat any processed food and you're not necessarily overly exerting yourself in sweat, you may not need that much hydration, right, so, kind of listening to those body cues, I've always heard when you find you're thirsty, probably because you're already dehydrated, right, so, being on top of it, I feel like so many of us do better in the summer because we're hot and we're thirsty, but being intentional all the time with kind of trying to measure that amount of water and then taking into account other things. One of the parts of cellular hydration that I feel like it's often missed and this might be going down a rabbit trail, so, you can cut me off if it is, but when you have a healthy functioning body, your mitochondria will make ATP and one of the products of ATP is actually like a fourth phase of water, it's like a little gelatinous form of water, which is super, super hydrating, so, somebody who is really metabolically functioning well and getting all the nutrients and vitamins they need, the rest, the sunshine, right, they're just living that life and their body is thriving in it, they actually, again, may need less water because their body's producing enough water that they don't necessarily have to be chugging the same amount of water, so, I find some people, if we're overexerting our water, we might want to ask the question, why are you so thirsty all the time, why are you drinking so much water, there might actually be something metabolically imbalanced. Kids are super great, I feel like they're so intuitive that unless they're drinking sodas and juices and energy drinks, if they're just drinking water and eating whole foods, most of the time they're pretty good at knowing when they need water and when they don't.   Laura Dugger: (11:09 - 11:20) Because is that rule, I guess, generally recommended as well with the half your body weight in ounces, is that the same for kids and you feel like they're just natural at regulating that?   Emily Johnson: (11:21 - 12:27) Yeah, and so, sometimes you look at a kiddo who's super tired all the time, and you might ask the question, how much water are they drinking, right? The other thing I find with kids, with kind of this like new Stanley water bottles and stuff for women, it's a little bit different, but I feel like with kids, because we're so like in this mindset of kids get water bottles, right, and you like fill their water bottle up before you send them to school or daycare or whatever, or just for the day, unless you're drinking out of a glass cup at home all the time, most kids just naturally fill up a water bottle, I find just nowadays. And so, it's easier to track their water, I feel like for most kids.   And so, okay, kind of that general rule of thumb, in general, half your body weight. You know, my son, when my kids were in public school, he used to come home and like none of his water, like his water hadn't been touched, right? And I'm like, okay, you went six hours through a whole day and never took a sip of water, right?   Like that's obviously would be a problem. But I think he was so distracted at school, right? That like, he wasn't realizing kind of those cues within his body to reach for his water.   But yes, it would be the same for kids.   Laura Dugger: (12:28 - 15:19) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   With over 28 years of experience in real estate, Sue Neihouser of the Sue Neihouser team is a RE-MAX agent of Central Illinois, and she loves to walk alongside her clients as they unlock new doors. For anyone local, I highly recommend you call Sue today on 309-229-8831 and you can ask her any real estate questions.   Sue lives in Central Illinois and loves this community and all that it has to offer. When unlocking new doors with her clients, Sue works hard to gain a depth of understanding of their motivations and dreams and interests in buying and selling their home. And then she commits to extensive market research that will give them confidence in their decision.   Sue truly cares for each of her clients and the relationship she forms with each family along the entire home buying or selling process. This was absolutely our experience when we worked with Sue and her team. The house that we desired at the time was actually not even on the market, but Sue had a connection and was able to ask those homeowners if they would be willing to sell.   She was timely in her response as she walked us through this whole process, and she helped us sell our home with the right offer coming in hours after it was listed. It was astonishing. I remember one afternoon after we had settled into our new home, and she was knocking on the door dropping off a goodie bag for our family that came from the local bakery.   Our daughters also loved getting to know Miss Sue as she assisted us in finding truly our dream home. So, whether you're looking to buy a home for the first time, or looking to upgrade or downsize, or making the big decision to move to an assisted living from your home of many years, Sue will be there to help you navigate the big emotions and ensure the process is smooth and stress-free, and that the new doors to be unlocked are ready and waiting for more memories to be made. So, call her today at 309-229-8831 or visit her website at sueneihouser.com. And that is sueneihouser.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Okay, well then you also mentioned sunlight.   So, how does sunlight and just general outdoor time impact our children's health?   Emily Johnson: (15:20 - 21:49) Yeah, so, there's again so many rabbit shells we could probably go down on this, but in general I always look at the body as what did God create and how close to nature are we living or how far away are, right? So, there's a doctor that is always quoted, he says, you know, the further away from nature that we get the more disease that we see, right? And so, when you look at sunlight and getting your feet on the ground, so, from a metabolic perspective, sunshine is super important for our circadian rhythm.   It's super important just for cellular health, for energy, right? So, when you get that sunlight on your face that not only gives you vitamin D, if you kind of have the processes in the body right to convert the sunlight to vitamin D, but it is also going to be super helpful for your eyes because the minute your eyes see sunlight in the morning, people always say, I can't sleep at night. And I'm like, okay, what do you do the first hour of your morning?   Because the first hour of our morning actually sets that clock for the rest of our day and actually kind of helps us fall asleep at night. So, when you look at sunlight and just the way that it actually helps your circadian rhythm, it's gonna help naturally calm. If you ever go outside and you feel a little bit anxious and then you go outside and you almost just breathe, right?   Like I think there's just this beautiful calming effect that the sun has on most people, right? It just lifts your mood. It's just because our bodies are so deprived of sunlight.   When you look at, again, the cell, it's why red light, things like that, people really enjoy because you do get some of those light waves within them, like your skin absorbs it. And then, right, it just kind of helps your adrenals, your cellular function, and just in general your body. There was an interesting study years ago that I had come across that was actually talking about chickens and how, right, why do you use chicken lights?   Why do farmers use chickens? Because if you don't use a warming light and give, get like a fake sunlight, right, on the chicken, they'll molt in the winter, and they won't lay eggs. But as long as you keep stimulating the sun by getting light on their skin, then they actually keep reproducing eggs and their feathers don't molt.   And so, they were using that study to say, okay, how does that affect humans, right? And I always feel like God gave us the sun and, right, he, when we're out in the sun, like so many parts of the body just process better and more efficiently. Then you mentioned getting your feet on the ground, right?   And so, when you look at the electromagnetic fields within the earth, they are, again, God-made electric magnetic field. When you get your feet on the ground, when you're in nature, when you're out in, there's a grounding effect that happens. So, I think this happens in both our physical and our spiritual sense, right?   So, physically, you actually start getting, in the same way we need water, we also need really good electricity within the body to, again, kind of make all those processes of the body happen. When we are so, when we're kind of living under false light, we're not getting our feet on the ground. We're not getting out in nature where everything is kind of artificial, right?   The body just doesn't thrive in the same way that it does out in nature. So, getting our kids outside, getting them in the sunlight is not only gonna help just make them feel better, it's gonna help their skin, right? Their energy of the body, all those different things.   Then getting their feet on the ground, they're actually can start absorbing that electromagnetic field from the earth. It's why astronauts, right, when they go off into space, they actually, their body ages really, really, really fast because they don't have the gravity and they don't have that electrical pull that happens when we're out in nature. There's some fun studies that talk about how when you get like even just like one 24-hour period of like camping is enough to totally reset your circadian rhythm.   Just like one and then it lasts, right? There's some other studies on the immune system and how when we're in nature for just even two to three days consistently, right? And so, that looks like man-made environment going in nature for a couple days and then coming back to man-made environment and how that just boosts your immune system, you know, for up to several months, like it just kind of lingers, right?   And so, the idea is that we're always in nature, we're always getting outside, we're always gonna get these benefits. Because I work a lot with children with neurodivergent issues, one of the best things again, we can do for our kids from a brain development perspective is actually letting them get outside and run around and climb on things and jump off things and right because that actually helps strengthen parts of the brain as well as just their overall body. For kids who are super nearsighted, getting them outside in the sun and doing work and stuff outside actually will help strengthen those eye muscles.   So, there's just so many cool benefits. I think even just when you look at, you know, being inside a building, you have walls, right? So, your depth perception, your awareness is still kind of closed in.   But when you go outside in nature and you're even just in your backyard, right? There are no walls, right? So, there's just an expanse and your mind and your perception, what you hear, what you see, what you smell, everything just gets kind of grounded is honestly the best word.   And I think even spiritually, you see that, right. We started gardening years ago, not because I'm particularly good at gardening, but because I had read that like, the parables in the gospels are so much more amplified when your kids understand what it looks to farm. And obviously, we live in town, we don't live on land where we can like do the full farming thing.   But at least the idea was that our kids would understand what it means for a seed to go in the ground, what it means for it to sprout, what it means, you know, to have to prune the peach trees, what it means to have, you know, to, to be able to harvest after you've done all of this work, right? And so, that even just those things, like there's so much more, I think, spiritual, and physical and emotional of just being in nature, right? We slow down; we just appreciate God's beauty in a different way.   And then metabolically, we just see all the amazing benefits that it has.   Laura Dugger: (21:50 - 22:13) And I'd never heard that before about camping resetting us even for months. If that feels too big for somebody to do right away, is there any recommended amount of time just as we're getting started, even as it's starting to get colder out, when the weather is tolerable, what amount of time will we maybe start to see benefits of being outdoors?   Emily Johnson: (22:14 - 25:41) Yeah, so, everyone, unfortunately, right, is a little bit different in kind of, because it's going to depend on what you're doing inside too, right? So, if you're on a screen, 24 hours a day, and then once you go outside, you can spend 20 minutes outside, right? I would say most of my clients, I encourage 20 minutes a day outside, even when it's really, really cold, right?   Because there's also beautiful benefits of cold therapy. So, as you're moving into the winter, sometimes I'm like, that's actually so fun, because you get light in the morning, you get your kids outside, they get their energy out, and they're getting cold exposure, which is also super helpful at boosting the immune system, right? It's a hormesis stress.   So, there's some stresses that are really bad. And you kind of want to avoid those stresses, right? But there are other stresses that in short measurements actually increase the ability of the immune system to kind of modulate it and boost just resiliency in general.   And so, honestly, even cold in, I just think with air conditioning, with lighting, with all that stuff, right, we have just kind of lost our ability to be resilient from a biological perspective. So, the more in the summer, when it's really warm, and you're pushing your kids outside, right. They're kind of getting like, “Oh, it's too hot.” Or when it's in the middle of winter, and you're pushing your kids outside. They're like, “It's freezing cold, right.”   And so, it doesn't have to be a lot, but I would say a little bit. And I also find that it's kind of the teenager and adults that have a harder time being outside, kids will always run outside and play, right? Once you get them out there, I feel like most of the time, they're, it's hard to then get them back in.   But I would say in general, starting off with just, and you know, I say 20 minutes for kids, because I think that's super important. And even more, right. So, I love the like 100 hours, you know, a year outside, like a lot of that initiative in those books are just so cool.   Because it just kids love charts, and they love being outside. So, an hour a day is another kind of helpful benefit. But I would say, if you're really struggling, depending on the schedule, and just your work and sports and all the things, any amount outside is going to be beneficial.   So, grab your coffee, go stand outside, even in the cold, even if it's still dark outside, right, sip on your coffee for five minutes. And then as much as you can do throughout the day to just get outside, park a little farther away from the grocery store. So, you get a little bit more time outside, right?   Camping in your backyard, if you're like, I don't want to go camping or my kids used to, you know, put hammocks out and sleep outside. Just that type of stuff. It doesn't have to be like going into the middle of the woods and hibernate, you know, it can be these little chunks of just exposure.   Even when we say nature, the studies of all that I've always come across are like deep in the woods. But we also see the benefit of just being outside, even in a rural area, right, or super industrial area, or a super heavily populated city, like it is still, you still see a lot of benefits, people in New York who are just going outside on their patio, like you still see health benefits. So, I would say, make a resolve amount of time and stick with it until that becomes easy.   And then you start doing the next thing, right?   Laura Dugger: (25:42 - 26:12) I love that. Okay, that's doable to start with a bite size and some is better than none and more is better than some. I'm also thinking, as you're talking about cold therapy and grounding, maybe not for kids with cold plunging, but are there any other kind of bio hacks? Are grounding mats that we can sleep on, is that helpful for children too, if they're not getting the amount of time barefoot on the ground outdoors as we would like?   Emily Johnson: (26:13 - 29:08) Yeah. So, one of the things we think about with grounding is again, eating whole nutrient dense food that is going to help that mitochondria, right? Those types of foods, the electrical current of the body, that actually I find some kids don't need to kind of ground like on the grounding mats, maybe the way an adult would, because they're just not depleted as much energy, right?   As maybe an adult might be. Grounding mats, I feel like can go either way because some kiddos, adults too, I just think kiddos, you're not as aware of it as maybe an adult might be that some, even with grounding mats, I have some very sensitive clients who can't do like manmade EMFs, right? So, anything electrical that you're plugging into a wall, Wi-Fi, even like batteries sometimes, you know, they're just very sensitive too.   And so, sometimes those kinds of biohacking things don't work super well if it brings in kind of a manmade current. PEMF is one of my favorite. Most kids respond well to that.   And it just kind of boosts the cell backup. I don't know if I've had great reviews from people with grounding mats that anyone feels any different. I don't know if it's placebo.   I just haven't had personal testimony that it does a whole lot. PEMF, I definitely have had lots of testimony that kids feel more grounded, adults feel better, just overall kind of addresses the whole cellular function. Red light is my next favorite, because again, if you are sensitive to EMF, you can stay away from it and you're still getting it on your skin.   So, you see some of those health benefits. Red light is probably my favorite because I just think it's so much easier for kids to do. And there's so many different variations out there that can be super helpful.   Again, just getting light on the skin can just kind of help boost the overall, just cellular process of the body. You said cold plunges. Cold plunges, again, yeah, for adults are great.   Kids, it's just hard to measure. But cold washcloths, right? Cold, even just like a cold face plunge, right?   Some kids don't mind that and that can be super beneficial for them. But most kids you're like, just go outside in the cold and you start to see the benefits of that. But I have a couple of kids just from a nervous system perspective, they get really amped up and real worked up, right?   And obviously for an adult, I'd be like, go cold plunge. For a kid, you're not going to necessarily do that. But we take ice packs and I just say, take ice packs, put them on the face for just a little bit until they're tolerating it.   And a lot of times that will bring kind of that nervous system back into balance, just putting ice packs on your face.   Laura Dugger: (29:09 - 29:54) I just wanted to let you know, there are now multiple ways to give when you visit TheSavvySauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website, and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled support. Our mailing address is also provided if you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible.   Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com today. Thanks for your support.   This is new to me. Did you say PEMFs or what is that?   Emily Johnson: (29:54 - 31:35) Yeah. So, it's post electromagnetic field therapy. Yeah.   So, it's kind of, and there are homemade ones or like ones you can get for home that are doable. Therisage is my favorite one just because it's price wise, it's doable. Most I've had lots and lots of testimonies of, you know, autistic kiddos that just they're calm when they're sitting on it.   And then there's really great like high tech ones that you would find. Pulse centers is my favorite. Like they're just really expensive.   So, most of the time you're going to go to a pulse center center of some kind or chiropractor or something like that that might have one. But the idea is that it is trying to mimic as close to the ground, right? So, when you think EMFs in nature, there's a certain frequency that the sun gives off a certain frequency that the earth gives off.   But manmade EMFs tend to be significantly higher and just way, way, way out of range of kind of what these manmade or I'm sorry, God made ones are. So, when you're sitting on a PEMF, it's kind of mimicking that frequency of the earth and the sun. So, you get kind of there's different frequencies for different levels.   So, pain, neurological, kind of resetting your nervous system, sleep, like there's a lot of different frequencies that you might look at if depending on the health concern that you have. But again, it's sensitive to like manmade EMFs and sometimes having something plugged in the wall that you're sitting on doesn't really do it for you.   Laura Dugger: (31:36 - 31:54) Okay, you're making me even think of weighted blankets then as well. But before we go there while we're on EMFs, are things like AirPods the worst for us? Or what are practice to have in place to avoid the most harmful EMFs?   And why are they harmful?   Emily Johnson: (31:55 - 37:20) Yes, yeah. So, so, again, when we're thinking the best way I feel like I can describe it without getting super, super sciency is that it is kind of like these frequencies are coming at us in a way. So, when you're outside on the ground, right, your body, it's like this really beautiful hurt, like slow hurts that your body is receiving.   When you get into these higher frequencies, it's kind of like microwaves, right? Like it's just this constant noise that is bombarding your system. So, one of the things that you hear a lot in health is, and I know this is again, maybe a little bit of rabbit trail, but I think it applies to maybe kind of encompasses lots of conversation here.   But when you think about health, we're always saying like, can you stay in a place of rest and digest? Can you say is your nervous system always in this heightened fight or flight stage, or even worse. So, it's called dorsal vagal.   When you jump up to this, like freeze mode and your body just kind of freezes, right. We're not making good cells. We're not necessarily running from a dragon, right.   Or a lion or something. We're not like scared in that way, but we're not, we're also not resting and we're not digesting and absorbing either because there's this heightened kind of nervous system reaction that's happening. So, when you look, obviously, we always think of stress as emotional, right.   And it's like, oh, I want to avoid the stress emotionally, but metabolically we're looking at what externally also is causing stress on my system. And so, EMFs, because we don't see them, I think a lot of people don't realize how problematic they are, but it's almost this, like, you can't feel the, you can't see the wind, but you can feel it, right. It's kind of like that in the sense that you can't necessarily feel the EMFs, but if you were to take certain electrical measurements, you're able to see like that's emitting a ridiculous amount of frequency.   And so, you think of like just sitting in your living room, super calm, relaxed, right. But if you have all of this bombardment of EMFs kind of at a frequency level hitting your body, then without realizing it, you're like, why does my body always feel like it's stressed out? And so, again, from a resilience perspective, how do you fight infection and deal with actual stressors in your life?   If you're in a place of always being in this kind of heightened fight or flight stage. So, EMFs, manmade EMFs, there's a lot of different ones you can talk about. There's ones, obviously you have an ACDC that runs through your walls that can be problematic.   You have Wi-Fi. I would say the top things that I would say for most people, AirPods, I would say is relatively low. It depends on how much you wear them, right?   If you're a kiddo who's wearing it 12 hours a day, it's not super great. Some people would say that unless you get like a tubed type EMF specific, you know, earbud or headphone that every single one, whether it's wired or wireless is probably not great for you. The younger you are, the more problematic it is because you, the way your brain is and the way that the protection around your brain is, you're more sensitive the younger you are.   So, you can look on like a thermogram and you can see how a kiddo with like a cell phone to their head is going to be like, all of a sudden their whole head is like bright red and hot versus an adult who does the same amount of time. It might be a little bit more like orange, but it's not going to be as bright red because you don't have that barrier around your brain quite yet. When you're little, it's still forming versus when you're an adult, you have more of a thicker skull.   Your brain protection is just different. So, I would say top ones that seem like the most problematic are 5G, because again, it's just this, like, you know, I just read a study the other day that we had more bees die this last winter in America than we've had, right? Like all, like, I don't know, ever recorded, you know?   And the question was, you have really high frequencies, like 5G, that's like disrupting a lot of our animals. And actually, they've shown that it does kill bees, you know? And so, when you think of if it's killing off animals and disrupting kind of the natural way that birds and bees and things are able to communicate and locate where they need to go because that EMF is so, or that 5G is so disruptive, then what is it doing to our own brains and bodies?   So, I would say 5G is not great. So, if you live by a tower, sometimes you do need to, like, protect yourself if you can. That looks like different sheets.   There's different sheets and options and things that you can go on your wall. There's a ton of, like, EMF protection in the world. I don't know if that's necessary for most people.   Unplugging your Wi-Fi at night, talking on a speakerphone and not having your cell phone up to your head can be some of the easiest ones I have found that most people, it feels very doable to unplug your Wi-Fi because that can emit a lot of really high EMF frequencies. And then anything that you can do that's just more on speaker and not in your ear is probably better, but I don't think it's terrible if it's short-term.   Laura Dugger: (37:21 - 37:45) Even going back to that outdoor time, we've talked about clean water, mentioned some clean food, and grounding. All of these things are free options so far as well. And even just how much cleaner outdoor air is compared to indoor air.   Can you speak to how nature is a natural filtration system for air?   Emily Johnson: (37:45 - 38:40) Yeah. I'm trying to think of where we want to go with that. So, I think that when you look at the way that grass and leaves, right, you know, when you're thinking of, like, fourth grade science and you're like, okay, photosynthesis, right, all these different things, the way that they give up oxygen and the way that they filter, you know, different pathogens in the air.   And when you think of the breeze and just the natural way that things move around outside, it is, you're going to just have that natural, nothing's going to settle as much, right? And when you have your indoor, your windows are all closed. You don't have that natural cross bees.   You don't have that natural movement flowing through. And then, right, you just have nature that's just good at releasing oxygen into the air and you have trees that just naturally absorb those toxins. And yeah, does that answer your question?   Laura Dugger: (38:41 - 42:18) It's so good. It's helpful to have those little takeaways. And I'm just thinking, get outside, get outside.   Emily and I were having so much fun recording that we went way over the planned time limit. So, I want to share all of it with you, but we're going to divide this episode into two parts. So, make sure you tune in next time for part two with Emily Johnson.   One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

274. Holy Spirit Stories and Fruit and Ways to Identify His Guidance in Our Lives with Margaret Feinberg   Exodus 31:3 NIV "and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—"   *Transcription Below*   Questions and Topics We Cover: Joy is a fruit of the Spirit, so will you share some insight into what you've been learning about the Holy Spirit from your most recent research for your latest book, entitled The God You Need to Know? If someone listening has trouble identifying the Spirit's role and God's direction or Jesus' voice in their life, how would you encourage them to grow in attention and recognition of His voice and leading? Do you have any stories to give as illustrations for the Spirit still mightily being at work in the world and in people's lives today?   Margaret Feinberg, one of America's most beloved Bible teachers, speaks at churches and conferences and hosts the popular podcast The Joycast. Her books and Bible studies, including Taste and See, Fight Back with Joy, More Power to You, and The God You Need to Know have sold more than one million copies and received critical acclaim and national media coverage from the Associated Press, USA Today, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, and more. She was named by Christianity Today as one of fifty women most shaping culture and the church today. Margaret savors life with her husband, Leif, and their superpup, Zoom.   Margaret's Most Recent Work: The God You Need To Know Book and Bible Study   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh Special Patreon Re-Release Theology and Discipleship with Ken Baugh 259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen Fruitful with Laura Dugger   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:18) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Do you love to travel?   If so, then let me introduce you to today's sponsor, DreamCellar Travel, a Christian-owned and operated travel agency. Check them out on Facebook or online at DreamCellarTravel.com. Today we get to learn from one of the most joyful human beings I've ever encountered.   My guest for today is Margaret Feinberg, and she's an author and researcher and podcaster and speaker. Most recently, her research project turned into a book where she was researching all about the Holy Spirit and His work in the Old Testament and the New Testament, and still His work that's present and active in our lives and around our world today. So, her stories of His specific presence at work in our lives are so moving, and she also pairs that with practical ways that we can more clearly hear from the Holy Spirit and identify His voice in our lives.   We also chat about the true definition of the word weird, which I actually want to elaborate on now because in the moment I couldn't find the definition that was so powerful. So, weird is defined as unearthly or uncanny, extraordinary, involving or suggesting the supernatural, and completely fantastic. Sometimes we think the Holy Spirit may be inviting us into something that seems weird, but He's redefined weird for us, and I just pray that all of us after this conversation will accept the invitation with gladness from Holy Spirit in our lives to join in whatever adventure He has planned for each one of us today.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Margaret.   Margaret Feinberg: (2:18 - 2:24) What a delight to be with you today. It's absolute joy, and you look fantastic, by the way.   Laura Dugger: (2:24 - 2:45) You're so kind. I can tell that joy is one of your markers already, and that makes me think you just have such a rich spiritual heritage in general. So, we don't typically start here, but can you go back and share your parents' story of coming to faith in Jesus Christ?   Margaret Feinberg: (2:46 - 5:22) Absolutely. I share this in the book, The God You Need to Know, in Bible study, but it's pretty beautiful. They actually came to know Jesus back in the 1970s during the Jesus movement, and my father was raised Jewish, and my mom was not really raised much in the church, and so, they got married, and separately on the same weekend, they came to know Christ. My father, back in the 1960s, he was actually a surfboard manufacturer.   He helped build longboards the very first time that longboards were cool, and these customers kept coming into his little store and telling him about Jesus, and eventually he grew so frustrated that one weekend he went out turkey hunting, and he was sitting in turkey blind, had tons of time around him, and decided to sit down and read the entire New Testament over the course of that weekend, and he read it, and he thought, “Wow, Jesus came to earth.”   He lived, he died, and he was resurrected that we can have eternal life for free, and he thought, in his Jewish brain, that is a good deal, and so, he just believed in Christ, and meanwhile, my mom is at home and has her own encounter. She's finishing reading a book by the name of The Great Late Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey, which was actually the best-selling book of the decade back in the 1970s, and at the end of that book, it had an invitation to come to know Christ, and so, both of them come to know Christ separately on the same weekend. They come home on that Sunday, and they're a little awkward about it because it sounds weird. They don't really want to tell each other, and then finally start to spell out, and there's such joy that they both came to know Christ because the Holy Spirit was at work in their lives. What's amazing is that they had been trying to have kids for the first eight years of their marriage and hadn't been able to conceive, and within a month of them coming to know Jesus, I was conceived. So, you just see the work of the Holy Spirit all over that, and that He is leading people to Christ. He is on the move, and sometimes it doesn't involve any of us doing anything, and that's a freedom marker for us. It's not our job to run around and try to save everybody. Holy Spirit is already at work, and when we have the opportunities to be part of that, it is a privilege and a joy. Trust in a God who is so good and so loving and so kind that He will find people through reading books and hiding out in a turkey blind hunting turkeys all weekend.   Laura Dugger: (5:23 - 5:45) That gives me goosebumps even to hear the timing of that and you being conceived. Then you also had a unique childhood. At that time, not as many people were homeschooled, and your story was fascinating. So, what was homeschooling and spiritual discipleship like for you in the growing up years?   Margaret Feinberg: (5:46 - 8:18) Yeah, so, in those early years, my mom and dad had that mom-and-pop kind of surf shop down in Cocoa Beach, Florida. For all you surfing nerds, Ron Jon loaned my dad the money to marry my mom. I mean, so, we're talking deep surfing roots, still friends to this day, and so, they would work, and a lot of you are entrepreneurs and are listening, and you get this, but they would often work seven days a week, 14 hours a day, just trying to keep this little store open with their employee. It just was. It's just a rough business, retail, and so, the only way that they could get away was they would leave the store in the hands of a manager. They decided to buy a really small, inexpensive boat, and we would go sail from the coast of Florida into the Caribbean. So, as we did that, what do we do for school. I remember for third grade, we actually went for an entire year, and so, it was homeschooling. Now, this is like early 80s, and you have to think like it's not exactly fact-checked, reputable, like you send your work in like once or twice a year. So, I'm living on this boat, super remote, not even around a ton of kids, pretty isolated, and I figured out that if I did all my schoolwork in one day that I could play the other six, and so, that was my year of third grade. Fortunately, things turned out okay, but I learned so much more just meeting people from all over the world, surfing or swimming.   I learned how to, at eight years old, shoot my first lobster because we had to survive off the ocean. So, it was an incredible experience. Then after that, ended up going into public school in the later years once we got to like probably fifth, sixth, a lot more steady than those early years. But you know, the thing that I always saw in my mom was I would wake up, and she would usually be on the couch or on the deck of the boat, and she would be reading her Bible, and there was something about that. It wasn't spoken.   It wasn't like you must do this, but I watched it, and I saw it, and now all these years later, that's what I do. So, for all those mamas and papas who are listening and watching, I just want to encourage you - like how you live, those little things, the kids and the grandkids and the great-grandkids, they watch, they see, and it matters, and so, thank you. Those of you who are engaging in those things. It pays dividends for decades and generations to come.   Laura Dugger: (8:20 - 8:28) That's incredible, and then can you share about your own faith journey? You saw that modeled. When did it become personal to you?   Margaret Feinberg: (8:29 - 11:44) Yeah, you know, even as a young kid, I was aware of God and Jesus and Holy Spirit, and just the Lord was very tender to make Himself real to me when I was young. When I went away to college, and this is just normal behavior, you know, there is that kind of making faith your own, figuring it out, and so, my freshman year of college, I partied like a rock star. I got the bees, the beer, the boys, and the Ben and Jerry, like I, you know, I just all the things, and I remember at the end of that year, I had this sense that God was saying to me like, you are my child. I have called you by name.   You are mine. Come back to me, and I read about this in The God You Need to Know, but one of those was a turning point I went to. It was actually a Methodist conference on Holy Spirit, and while I was there, I had an unusual experience, but in it, you know, I'm watching, I'm listening to all these lectures.   I'm in the conference. I'm attending all these things, and at one point, I had a thought pop into my mind that was not my own, and the thought was go to the prayer room and look underneath the tablecloth. I was like, okay, that's weird, but it was like go to the prayer room and look underneath the tablecloth. So, I'm like, you know what? At the end of the day, like what do I have to lose?   I mean the worst thing that happens is I wander into our prayer room. Okay, we'll take the risk, and I remember going in there, and I'm kind of like there's some people praying (a couple). I'm trying to like I don't want to be weird like I know it's a conference on the Holy Spirit, but still I'm like I am not going to be weird about it. So, I'm like trying to peek underneath a tablecloth, and there's nothing there, and there's all these tables around the room. So, I'm kind of like making my way across, and I'm seeing like one lady like eyeing me like what is happening. So, I peek under another one. Anyway, I go table after table, nothing after nothing until I reach the very last table. I pick up the tablecloth, and there is a Bible, and I look, and it's full of like notes and photographs. So, I pull it out, and there's a name on the front, and so, I just kind of said, “You know, excuse me in the prayer room like does anybody know this person, and most people were like no, and one lady says you know what I do know her, and she had to leave the conference early, and I actually have her phone number.” So, all of a sudden I'm on the phone calling this lady and saying “Hey, I just found your Bible on the phone.”    She says, “You have no idea. That Bible is full of decades of prayers and notes and photos that can't be replaced. I have been sitting here praying that someone would find my Bible.” So, I'm just in awe like Holy Spirit, I didn't even know - like wow like this is not just a mental learning.   This is a real experience, and so, I told a couple people at the conference about it. One said' “You know what, actually, if you're driving up that direction, I've been praying to get a ride up that direction.” So, I was able to drop off this ministry worker, return this Bible to this precious woman, and that really became one of the markers in my life. Oh my goodness Holy Spirit is real. He is on the move. He is leading and guiding us, and this is such an exciting thrilling adventure to be on.   Laura Dugger: (11:45 - 12:12) Wow, and it absolutely is. You are an incredible storyteller. It's so powerful the way that you wrote some stories in your books, the way that you're sharing it now. God has really gifted you with that, and that's part of your purpose in life being that storyteller. So, how did you begin to uncover the purpose that God had for you in life?   Margaret Feinberg: (12:12 - 15:09) That's such a great question, so, I'm going to answer that a couple different folds. Can I do that? So, the first answer is all of our purpose is the same. It is to love God, love others, and delight in Him forever.   That is the purpose of all of our lives, and so, that is the answer. At the same time, a lot of what I think you're saying is purpose is a little bit about vocation. Is that right?   And so, we need to recognize that as believers that this idea that somehow our vocation or what we do is our purpose and is supposed to give us meaning and value to God has really only been around for the last 50 to 75 years and largely established in the American culture. But for thousands of years, that has never been the case. And so, what that does is that for a lot of us, when we don't kind of understand that it puts a heavier weight on the job. The vocation that we do to carry all of this burden of purpose, fulfillment, meaning, ordained by God.   I mean, that becomes like a heavy burden for a single job or vocation to carry that it was never meant to. Right? And so, again, back to what is our purpose? It is loving God, loving others, and delighting. And that never changes no matter whether you are raising littles, whether you are whatever the title on your business card, if you still have those, or identification on social, whatever it is. But that never changes.   And so, I think that we have to step back and recognize that. Now, I do understand that I am in a role in which my job provides spiritual meaning. And that is delightful.   And I am super grateful for that. But in that, my spiritual meaning is still not about what books I write or podcasts or any of that nonsense. It's all about how I'm living in my community and real one-to-one relationships that are done privately and never published on social media.   That is the real life. And so, I just want to encourage everyone out there to think that that job is the thing. The job is never the thing.   Now, don't let that distract you because what do you do when you're retired? What do you do if you can't do that job? But if you are in a vocation, if you are in a role, that to understand, yes, God can use that, and to invite Holy Spirit into that space, but to make sure that we don't find our identity in that.   Because that's a short runway. That's going to end at one point. And to really ground ourselves into the eternal and what does not have an end and what will sustain us from our first breath until our last.   Laura Dugger: (15:10 - 16:38) Wow, I love how you put all of that. And so, I'm going to share a story, so, bear with me because you may not be aware, but back in 2013, our lives first crossed paths. So, back then, we were pregnant with our first child.   And my husband, Mark, and I went with my parents to the American Association of Christian Counselors conference in Nashville. And you were one of those keynote speakers at the Opera Land Hotel. And I was just mesmerized by every word you shared.   And so, I see why people write about you, and they say you're one of America's most beloved Bible teachers, because you were so endearing from the first word spoken. But at the time, you were battling cancer. And yet you were still willing to generously and joyfully share about the goodness of the Lord and the ways that we encounter Him in nature through olives and bees and so on.   But the one other thing that has stuck with me for over a decade is when you encourage the audience of probably thousands of people in attendance, that if we don't know what to be thankful for today, be thankful for nose hairs. So, do you remember that?   Margaret Feinberg: (16:39 - 19:24) I do. Yeah, that defined gratitude in the little things and in the heart. I do.   And the reason I said that, because without context, that sounds really, really strange. But whenever anybody who's out there and is walking through any medical, whether that's mental health or physical challenges, one of the difficulties is in the medical world, they don't tell you everything that's coming. And so, there are all these hidden surprises, and you can read about it, and you can WebMD it, and you can read online, and all of them are just going to say you're going to die tomorrow.   We already know that. We know we shouldn't Google these things, right? But no matter what you're walking through, there are things that people just don't tell you.   And so, I knew that going through chemotherapy, I would lose my hair. And sure enough, in 10 days, it was all falling out. Nobody told me that that included all my hair, including my nose hairs.   And so, what I had to learn the hard way is when you don't have nose hairs, like kind of what holds anything that's liquid in your nose, it just falls out. And so, my encouragement was to everybody, you don't have anything to give thanks to God for today. Give thanks for your nose hairs.   And just a light way of saying, you know, even when you're walking through the darkness, and I know some of your listeners and your viewers are, you are in dark seasons. And if that is you, I just want to say, I get you. I get it.   I have battled cancer. I have battled autoimmune. I have battled being sick for years.   I have battled being embezzled. I have battled surviving a destructive pastor. I know suffering and pain.   But even when we're in the darkness, we are a people who poke holes in the darkness until it bleeds light. And that's who we are. And gratitude is just one of those tools that helps us do that.   So, I just want to encourage you today, like whatever it takes for you. And there is something in this concept of joy. And I don't quite understand.   I can't quite wrap my head around it. But joy is something that you can give away even when you don't have it. And in the process of giving away joy when you don't have it, somehow our capacity for joy expands.   It's a strange equation in God's economy. It does not add up. It does not make sense.   But whether it's, you know, climbing in an MRI machine and saying, man, has anybody praised God from this square inch today? Whether it's showing up and giving just a simple gift to someone else, whether it's writing the note, whether it's encouraging someone else, even in our own pain. When we do that, our capacity for joy just grows bigger and bigger.   Laura Dugger: (19:25 - 21:58) And now a brief message from our sponsor. Do you have a bucket list of travel destinations? Or maybe you have a special event coming up like a big anniversary, a honeymoon, or even just that first trip to Europe?   If so, you need to call DreamCellar Travel. 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That's worth saying again, in most cases, there is absolutely no service fee for this work.   Instead of booking online and being the one to deal with your airline schedule changes or the sudden change in country entry requirements, or the hotel that looks beautiful but is really under construction, call a professional. Let them deal with the problems that arise while traveling so you can just enjoy the trip. DreamCellar Travel has been planning dream trips since 2005 to amazing destinations such as Alaska, Italy, Hawaii, Canada, the Caribbean, United Kingdom, Germany, Switzerland, France, South Africa, Iceland, and more.   Where do you dream of going? You can reach out to the DreamCellar Travel at 309-696-5890 or check them out online at DreamCellarTravel.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.   You just lived this so well, and I know joy is a fruit of the spirit. Will you share some insight into what you've been learning about the Holy Spirit, especially from all your research from your latest book? As you mentioned, it's entitled The God You Need to Know.   Margaret Feinberg: (21:59 - 25:44) Yeah, I'm super excited about this book and Bible study. I've had a lot of questions about the Holy Spirit since I was a little girl. I remember reading the Bible and thinking, Jesus, He's so real.   He's so human. That I can recognize, and I get the picture of God on the throne, all powerful and sovereign. But when I think about the Holy Spirit, I'd be like, I'm struggling here a little bit.   And growing up in Southern Baptist and Methodist and Episcopal and non-denominational and charismatic, I got little pieces of Holy Spirit, but I just kind of struggled. And I think one of the reasons I struggled is that often, maybe like you, when I ask questions about Holy Spirit, I was like, “Well, you need to go read the book of Acts and read Acts 2.” And that's that beautiful moment of Pentecost where the spirit comes in and it's like a violent wind and tongues of fire.   They descend and people start speaking in other languages and other people hear they're declaring the glories of God. And then all of a sudden 3,000 people get saved. I think that is awesome.   But that doesn't look like my every day. So, I'm not quite sure. And so, for the last few years, I've been struggling to write this book.   And when I really came alive was with a scholar by the name of Jack Levison, and he focused in on the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. And all of a sudden that changed everything for me. Because what happens is if we jump to Acts, and particularly Acts 2 to understand Holy Spirit, it would be like showing up on your wedding day and being like, this is who you're marrying.   And you're like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't know this person. Like we haven't courted. We haven't dated.”   I don't, what, what, what? And yet that's often what we do as believers when we're directing people. And so, I took a deep dive into Holy Spirit throughout the Old Testament, looking at Genesis where Holy Spirit hovers over the waters, the chaos, the darkness, looking at how Holy Spirit hovers over our lives and how that's consistent with God, as in the book of Deuteronomy, as well as Jesus in the New Testament, that hovering like a, like a hen, I wanted to gather the children.   And you start to see this through it. You start to look in the lives of Bezalel, who was the first person who was filled with Holy Spirit, to do what to make and to make those, you know, the tabernacle and to lead an entire guild of artisans. We see the life of the Spirit in Daniel, where all of a sudden Nebuchadnezzar on multiple occasions is saying the Spirit of God is in him.   We have somebody who is literally running around like a wild animal at certain points in his life, who is still recognizing the power of Holy Spirit. I think it's the word in Hebrew is Ketria. We start seeing it in the life of Ezekiel, where the Holy Spirit is lifting him up, giving him new perspectives.   And what's cool is that once you start to recognize the rule of Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, you arrive at Acts 2 and you go, of course, it would happen this way. And suddenly for those of us who for maybe we've been hesitant about Holy Spirit, or maybe we've had maybe a lack of teaching or maybe some teaching that was a little bit abusive and was used to manipulate. Like all of a sudden we can back up from that and be like, oh, Holy Spirit, this is you from the beginning of time.   This is so normal. This isn't weird. This is just part of just being a follower of Jesus.   And so, one of the things that I love about this book is it takes the weird out, takes the scary out. It's so just biblically based, especially in the Old Testament. And I think some of your listeners and viewers will be surprised like, whoa, I didn't know that was, what?   That's where? And that's really fun and exciting.   Laura Dugger: (25:45 - 26:14) Absolutely. I think it did bring to light so many things from the Old Testament, like I said, especially. And I think you were even able to share some of your own stories, and that's why we're so often called to remember.   I think when we preserve and document those and share those stories, we can reflect back and remember God nudging us like he did with you, putting a thought in your mind that was not your own. That increases our faith in others, I think, as well.   Margaret Feinberg: (26:14 - 28:25) I think it really, really does. I think that one of the things we have to remember when Holy Spirit, so, in Psalm 139, we know that God knows he made us in the womb. And so, to recognize that all of us are made differently, and my hunches are some listeners right now who are thinking, man, yeah, I know people who talk a lot about Holy Spirit, but that's just not me.   I don't really see or enact or feel Holy Spirit. And so, first of all to you, I want to say I don't feel Holy Spirit either. I've been to a ton of churches and conferences, and the person on the stage will say, man, do you feel the Holy Spirit here?   And I'll be like, nope, nope, not at all. So, I'm not a feeler. But what I can do in those moments is I can acknowledge with my head, Holy Spirit is here, because we know that as part of the Trinity, Father, Son, Spirit, Holy Spirit is here.   And then secondly, to recognize that like Psalm, you know, that describes that He knew us in the womb, that we are all different. We know today that there's a neurodiversity, right? So, some people learn audio, some people visual, some people like myself, ADD, ADHD.   And God knows that, like the Creator did not make a mistake. And so, wouldn't it make sense that the Holy Spirit, who knows us as the spirit of a living God, would interact with us in different ways? I have an e-newsletter, and I've surveyed, you know, thousands of people, how they recognize the spirit, and it's just so diverse.   Some are like me, a thought pops back in my head that is not my own, that causes me to love God, love others, serve others, take risks in godly good ways. For other people, they do feel it. Some people have like a warmth in their body.   Some people kind of just feel like this, this just comfort or peace, like liquid love that envelops them. Some people recognize God and the Holy Spirit through nature. And so, I listen to this, and I think, doesn't that make sense that God and Holy Spirit would know us so well that He would know how to communicate with us?   And so, that when we start gathering with other believers and say, “Hey, how is Holy Spirit working in your life?” It starts to get this excitement of recognizing it and celebrating it and making it normal and not weird.   Laura Dugger: (28:28 - 28:48) And I think let's even take that one step further. So, if somebody is listening and they currently have trouble identifying the spirit's role or God's direction or Jesus's voice in their life, how would you encourage them with even first steps to grow in attention and recognition of His voice and leading?   Margaret Feinberg: (28:49 - 34:09) Goodness, that's such a great question. Something that's really changed my life in the last few months is my friend, Drake. He's a Young Life leader here.   And he said, Margaret, when I'm training people how to recognize Holy Spirit, he says, “I and the kids get a journal and write one question down for Holy Spirit each day. The question could be about purpose, identity, Holy Spirit, what's on your heart, Holy Spirit, who do I serve today? And write that one question down.”   That's it. That's all we're doing. And then throughout the day, return to that one question in prayer again and again.   And then pay attention to conversations that suddenly you have, Bible passages that flutter through your mind, the sermon that's given, conversations with other believers. Like just pay attention. And it's amazing.   And then the next day or that night, jot down whatever happens. The next day, change the question or keep the same question. And just start changing the posture of your life to pay attention to that one question.   And I think you're going to start to see and encounter some things. It may not happen quickly. It may take a few weeks or even months, but it will happen.   I think I was thinking about this just this morning. I haven't shared this with anybody. But in some ways, like people are like, I don't recognize Holy Spirit.   It's kind of like my friends who are birders. Okay. Some people super into birding.   And I know there are birds. I mean, occasionally I'll see a bird out the window, but birders have a whole different mentality. They slow down.   They pay attention. And they have some tools like binoculars to be able to look and to see. And it's the same thing about paying attention to Holy Spirit.   We've got to slow down, pay attention. And maybe the tool is just asking Holy Spirit one question a day. But suddenly you'll start to see and recognize.   Can I give you a fun story? Please. Okay.   So, just at Easter came around and I was probably a couple weeks before and they're having this crazy good sale at Target on some new releases. So, I'm at the Target website early in the morning before they sell out. And I saw a purse and I bought myself a few things.   But I saw a purse and I immediately thought of my friend Janella. And so, I was just like, I'm just going to buy this for her. Now, let me be clear.   I've never bought a purse for her before. I don't really carry around a ton of purses. I'm a Apple pay, like keep it light.   Like it's just not my thing. But put it in the cart, send it to her. So, I get a text from her about a week or two later.   And she goes, how did you know? Did I tell you about my Easter meltdown? And I said, no, I didn't know.   And she tells me, and I had known this, that her mother had passed away last year. What I didn't know is every single year, since she was a little girl for Easter, her mom would buy her a dress and a purse. And this was the first Easter without her mom.   And she could justify financially buying the dress, but not the purse. And all of a sudden this purse, which wasn't a normal purse. She's like, this is an Easter purse.   I was like, I don't know that, but okay. Arrived. And she said, I just, I just cried because I knew that the Lord saw me.   He heard me. You know, he was with me, part of his kingdom. And so, she says, but here's the thing.   The purse matched my dress perfectly. And you start to see that happen. And I didn't hear a voice from God say, go buy your friend a purse.   I was just like, “Hey, I've been praying every day, a single thing from Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit, will you order my steps?” And then you see something that you couldn't orchestrate on your own in 500 years happen.   And you go, that is the work of Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit in the New Testament, it's parakletos. It means advocate.   It can be translated comforter, advisor, barrister. For those of you watch too many British shows like I do, you know, the legal counsel. But if I were to kind of break that down from just biblical words, here's how we know it's the Holy Spirit.   Number one, Holy Spirit will remind you: God loves you. God sees you. God hears you.   And you're part of His kingdom. And what happened in that story was both of us experienced that. God loves, He sees, He hears, and we're part of His kingdom.   And so, that is the thrilling part about life in the Spirit. It's not so I feel good or I have little things that happen. It's about being part of God's kingdom on this earth, living out the life that Christ describes and designed for us.   And so, we cannot do that apart from Holy Spirit. And also, you may notice I haven't been using the term the Holy Spirit because we wouldn't say I talked to the God today. I talked to Jesus.   And Holy Spirit is a person; a person you can have a relationship with. And just as you can have a relationship with Christ and talk to Christ, you can do the same with Holy Spirit who is, again, paracletes, your advisor, your comforter, your helper. Why would you not tap into that?   Why would you want to spend a life missing out on the fullness of that?   Laura Dugger: (34:10 - 36:48) Oh, that's good, and I'll have to try and apply that and refer to Holy Spirit rather than I even did it there, the Holy Spirit. I'm thinking in the book of John, I love the amplified version where it says, “one of the things to describe Holy Spirit is standby.” And I've thought of that so many times because I love looking up definitions and seeing exactly what that means.   And it's just the immediacy of the help available. And that's been a way that I've experienced Him in my life especially the short prayers of help, please help now. Or if I need direction, a lot of times it comes in parenting for me, like, I'm not sure which way to go.   Can you give me discernment right now? And He's immediately available. So, I would say my own personal experience, it's a lot of what you've mentioned, definitely through reading the Bible that I feel like He speaks so much.   You're like, well, bring the words off the page. Journaling is such a practical way. And I'll link to our friend Chris Allen's episode just about hearing from God and training our kids on how they can do the same.   Just those thoughts that they're not always from us, but we're processing thoughts that are given to us. But one other thing, so, this is inspired from your book. You mentioned about dreams and just asking Holy Spirit to speak to you through dreams.   So, in our life currently, one of our daughters is going through some health issues and we were launched into having to do this FODMAP diet. And it's not that big of a deal, but I had never heard of it before. And it limits and restricts quite a few things.   So, the immediate need of that seemed a little bit overwhelming. We're kind of in a busy season and completely revamping everything our family eats all day. I've been preoccupied and kind of consumed with that.   So, twice this week, because in my quiet time I felt like God just kept saying, bring it to me, come to me with this, ask me the questions. And so, I've been journaling and I feel like He's been responding with Scripture. But the last two nights in a row, I've woken up with a recipe in mind for our family.   And that has never happened before. But you are the one who challenged us just to say, just ask. And that was probably, probably started asking over a month ago.   So, thank you.   Margaret Feinberg: (36:49 - 40:32) Wow. I love it. And you know what?   That makes me want to ask. Does that make sense? Like there's this excitement and there's this joy.   When you share about how Holy Spirit is working in your life, I'm like, I want that too. And that's just, yeah, I think that so often we forget who is with us.   The person, the person of Holy Spirit is with us. We don't have to keep all this striving and straining. And man, I got a life hack this on my own.   You know, there is this availability of the power and the presence of the person of Holy Spirit, the spirit of the living God. One thing I want to note on the Trinity, just so that I don't, I don't want anybody to think, oh, she's just cutting out one part of the Trinity. No.   Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. A couple of things on that. Number one, often, and part of the emphasis on the Holy Spirit, a little bit more in looking at this in the Old Testament, is when we see things in groupings of three, we tend to think that the third one listed tends to be lesser than or third place.   Right. And yet Father, Son and Spirit are equal. And what we see throughout the Bible is we have to remember that where there is one, all are present.   And so, like in creation, we see God take the lead. But, you know, Holy Spirit is mentioned in Genesis 1 to Jesus using the reference of we is there. And so, we start to see that the word, I think it's the word perichoresis is this term that describes the Trinity in a dance.   And so, at different parts of Scripture, we'll see one member of the Trinity take the lead, but the others are always present, whether it's, you know, Jesus taking the lead in the Gospels. But we see the Holy Spirit descending like a dove. We see God saying, this is my son and whom I am pleased.   Well, please listen to Him. And so, to recognize that, but also to recognize, again, like this, this reality that Holy Spirit is in us and with us. Like, wow, that starts to change everything.   So, all of a sudden, and you say, “It's no big deal changing the way your family eats. Can I just say that is an enormous deal. The time that it takes to prepare the food, the thinking, the thought space, the bad recipes, it is so big.”   So, you can try to minimize that. But I'm just going to say, “First of all, I'm glad there's a way forward, but I'm sorry, because that is massive. And it's a lot.”   And Holy Spirit wants to meet us there. Remember Genesis 1:2, “In the beginning, God created the heavenly earth and the earth was formless and void.” Tohu wavohu in the Hebrew.   “And the spirit was hovering over.” That word is merechefet. And it means to hover, to brood like a mama eagle.   One rabbi translated it as to flutter. And what is the spirit fluttering? Remember in the Bible, sorry to go to teaching mode, but whenever someone is introduced in scripture, the introduction is the most important.   We see that in the life of Saul. He literally is hiding in baggage and can't find his own donkeys. And it plays out that way, right?   So, how is Holy Spirit introduced? Could have entered any place and comes on the scene hovering over the chaos, the uncertainty, and the unknown. And so, here you are in that place of uncertainty and unknown, a little chaotic.   And what is Holy Spirit? Here's a recipe.    Doing what? Reminding you, you are loved by God. You are seen by God.   You are heard by God. And you are part of this kingdom. Man, when we start to share these stories, it just, oh, it creates this hunger to experience and know the spirit more.   Laura Dugger: (40:32 - 42:02) It does, and it's so humbling, just his loving kindness.    I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website.   You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities.   And we are thrilled with the final product. So, I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones, so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living.   You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible, so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.    Are there any other stories that come to mind to think of Holy Spirit being alive and moving and working in people's lives today?   Margaret Feinberg: (42:03 - 46:15) Oh, I'll give you one that I just found. You know what's so funny? Again, when you start to use the prayer prompts, when you start to do these just like a burger, all of a sudden you're like, oh my goodness, I didn't know how many birds there were.   So, went over to our friend's house. It was somebody at church. We actually, they weren't our friends at that point.   We noticed that when they came to our church, the son is on the spectrum. And so, in Sunday school class would often just stare at the wall in the corner by himself, not interact a whole lot, and their daughter. And so, my husband said, hey, let's bring a meal over to them.   And they invited us to stay for dinner. And so, the son comes in and he's probably maybe nine years old, wrapped up in a blanket, like a little burrito. And he won't make any eye contact with us.   You know, the mom's like, say, “Hello to Margaret.” Won't interact. Kind of woombas around, disappears, comes through a few times.   Finish eating. We go out in the living room. And the mom starts telling the story that she was exhausted as a mom.   She was completely burnt out. And she just said, “You know what? I'm going to the reservoir and I'm going to go paddle boarding.”   Just take a few minutes for myself. So, she goes out. She's paddle boarding.   All of a sudden she sees like a piece of paper on the surface of the water. She looks down and she goes, what is that? So, she picks it up.   Turns out to be a QR code to the zoo. Now, she doesn't know if it's used trash or what, but she's like, I'm going to keep this. She paddles some more, sees another piece of paper.   It's another QR code to the zoo. She's like, maybe they blew away from the, I don't, so, she grabs it. And she prays and she says, Lord, now you know that we're a family of four.   So, if we're really supposed to go to the zoo, we need four of these. Keeps paddle boarding. Finds two more.   And so, she comes home and says, “Guys, we're going to try to go to the zoo. I don't even know if these work.” But next day goes to the zoo, scans them.   Boop, boop, boop, boop. They all work. So, they go to the zoo.   So, they're walking through. And all of a sudden, the son comes upon a display of red pandas. And he just stops in his tracks.   And he stares and he watches. And the rest of the family, you know, the sister and the dad want to go on and they do. But he just says, “Mom, can we stay here?”   And so, he stays there for several hours just staring in this strange connection. He's never had, Mom had never seen anything like this with the red pandas. And so, she's telling me this story.   And suddenly I look around their living room and I realize there is panda paraphernalia everywhere. She looks at her son and says, “Honey, why don't you go put on your panda outfit?” Disappears, comes back in the panda outfit.   And all of a sudden, he's looking at us. He's talking to us. He's engaging us.   He goes over to his parents and paws them like a panda. And all of a sudden is snuggling with them. And she says that one encounter at the zoo changed their relationship with their son.   She says there are days that my son will get completely overwhelmed and start having a meltdown. And she'll use panda language and go up to him and say, “Well, you know that pandas eat 13 hours a day. Maybe you need a snack.”   And it is provided this connection and this new language for them as a family that they never had before. All because she went paddle boarding at the reservoir and pieces of paper started floating on the surface of the water. Friends, this is the work and power and presence of Holy Spirit.   Reminding us we are loved by God. We are seen by God. We are heard by God.   And we are part of this kingdom. And for your listeners, that may be strange stories of paper. And that may seem really odd.   But, man, I read a book that talks about Jesus saying, “Hey, go check out the fish.” And all of a sudden a coin to pay taxes comes out of his mouth. I read a book that declares that, you know, he is the alpha and the omega.   He is the beginning and the end. He knows where we are. He knows what we need.   And He wants to intercept. And sometimes that shows up like recipes in your brain in the morning.   Laura Dugger: (46:16 - 47:27) Amen, sister. And you can keep sharing as many stories as you want. But one more.   As I was reading your book, it was actually over Easter weekend. And at that time we had some tornadoes that were passing through the Midwest where we live. And in the middle of the night, we're all up.   We're in the basement. And once the sirens ceased, we got our girls back to bed. And we came and I just wondered, we came back to bed and I thought, is this just going to be for a few moments?   Is it going to happen again? Are we going to be up all night and need to take cover? So, with those concerns on my mind, I crawled back into bed.   And, you know, cortisol is kind of rushing through. So, I picked up your book to read. And my eyes fell to the words you quoted from part of Isaiah 31:5.   So, I specifically fell to this where it says, “He will shield it and deliver it. He will pass over it and will rescue it.” And I fell asleep well knowing that I could receive comfort from Holy Spirit, that the storm had passed for the night and God was shielding our family from it.   And indeed He did. They ceased.   Margaret Feinberg: (47:28 - 47:42) Isn't that incredible? I mean, we talk about I mean, just that's the word of God and the power of Holy Spirit, like speaking right in that moment in that exact situation. That is awesome.   Absolutely awesome. I love it.   Laura Dugger: (47:43 - 48:17) So, I love just Holy Spirit is even working through the words on your pages. I want you to be encouraged. I know you've prayed over this resource, but it's so incredible.   Somebody once said that books are little missionaries. And it's so true throughout the world. You have no idea who's cuddled up in bed reading these words and getting to encounter him.   So, thank you for all of your work for this. But Margaret, do you have any other practical tips that you want to impart to us so that each of us can cultivate the fruit of spirit in our lives?   Margaret Feinberg: (48:18 - 50:39) Yeah, I would say, you know, if you're if you're new to this and this idea, you know, pick up a copy of The Gods You Need to Know. There's also a Bible study. I am passionate about doing this in community.   The Holy Spirit, we often in the Americana church, think of our little personal private relationship with Jesus. And that's not church history. That's not the work of God.   Since the beginning of time, it has always been through relationships and community and recognizing that each of us has something to bring to the table in relationship with God and each other and gifts and talents and insights. I am in my questions. I think I referred to this later or earlier about, you know, I surveyed a bunch of people in my newsletter just about, hey, so, how do you recognize Holy Spirit?   One lady responded and she said, “Well, I recognize Holy Spirit because whenever I'm lost, I ask Holy Spirit for directions, and I just know where to go.” And she goes and it happens over and over in, you know, neighborhoods when I'm driving, when I'm going places. And I thought, okay, so, first I'll just be honest. My first thought was that's weird. I haven't heard that before.   And we assign anything weird that we aren't familiar with. And then I thought a little longer. I thought, man, I want her on my team.   I want her on my team because I get lost all the time. And I think that at times, sometimes we encounter people who encounter the Spirit differently than us. Remember that neurodiversity, but to recognize living in relationship, hearing how Holy Spirit works in different, sharing those stories.   There's something contagious and powerful in it. So, I would say definitely pursue Holy Spirit in relationship with others. Get together with others.   Start talking about this. Start praying together. Holy Spirit, we want to know you.   You know, it's okay to say, Holy Spirit, in the past, I've seen really unhealthy things. Or nobody's really taught me about you. But I trust that as the Spirit of the living God that you want to reveal yourself.   Just start praying, Holy Spirit, I want all of you. See what happens over the course of a week or two of praying that.   And what you become aware of. What Bible passages flutter through your mind. What conversations you suddenly stumble upon.   What answers to things you've been plagued with suddenly come. I trust God that if you ask and you honestly pursue, God will show up and show off.   Laura Dugger: (50:41 - 51:45) I completely agree. And now I'm curious to look up. I feel like the Lord has kind of put on my mind the word weird this year a few times.   Because truly, when you think of what he did, even in the Old Testament, think of Noah, just like, okay, I'm obeying. I'm putting nails in this wood for never seeing rain. It's weird what we're called to sometimes.   And I think that's what can make me hesitate for obedience sometimes. Like, that feels weird. Or I don't want people to think I'm weird.   So, I'm going to look up the definition of weird. I'd love to read it to you. Okay, so, I just looked up the definition of weird.   And it says, suggesting something supernatural or uncanny. And I think we should reframe the word weird. And when we're invited into something weird by supernatural God of the universe, that's an incredible invitation, like you say, to adventure.   So, I hope we can embrace the weird.   Margaret Feinberg: (51:47 - 54:41) And to recognize that feeling of, I don't want to do this. This feels strange. That is universal.   That is not you. That is not unique. And for all of our listeners and viewers, I have it.   Everybody has it. When we're trying to discern, you know, if something is prompted by the Holy Spirit, number one, is this, does this align with scripture? And does it align with the character of God?   Does it increase my dependence on God? Which means it's probably going to go against my natural instinct, which unfortunately is pretty self-word rather than outward. Does it cause me to love God and love others more?   And so, of course, Holy Spirit is going to be working in this expansive ground to pull us away from our self-word direction outward. And that is always going to be stretching and feel strange. And sometimes we're not going to see the outcome.   And we've got to become comfortable with that. We are not responsible for the outcome. We are responsible for obedience.   Some time ago, I swim a lot. And I just felt just in my gut, like, talk to the person in the lane next to you. And so, I go out swimming, and he's next to me, and I'm like, okay.   And so, I started this conversation with this elderly gentleman. And I'll just be honest. It was more like a non-versation.   I mean, we talked about sports ball teams and the weather and nothing. I really cared. Nothing deep.   Nothing meaningful. And on one hand, maybe I misheard. Okay.   But no harm, no foul. I mean, I showed kindness to a stranger. Loved others.   Like, there's no, like, okay. You know, on the other hand, I will never know what might have happened. Maybe he felt left alone.   Maybe he felt seen. But the outcome doesn't matter. And so, there are going to be times that we step out, and we see it, and we encounter it, and it's so exciting.   And there's going to be other times that we go to that thing, and we go, Lord, I didn't even know what that was. But maybe that was about quick obedience. You know, almost like building a muscle, getting stronger to say, you did it then.   I'm going to keep challenging. I'm going to give you opportunities to do this again and again. Because I want you on the front lines of, you know, eyes are searching to and fro for people who are, you know, obedient, quick to respond, that Holy Spirit wants to use.   And so, know that not seeing a result, totally normal. Keep going. Keep going.   Because you will see responses sometimes. And it is awesome. And in part of that, it's almost like building a muscle that I think God is so gracious and so loving kind that he will show you, like, quick outcomes sometimes when you respond to that little impulse to keep you going.   But there are going to be times you're not going to see them, but he's still at work. Because, again, you may be one of 17 people in a long chain where the fruit or the outcome as part of God's kingdom is still coming. And after a while, it's fine to be number 4, 7, 9.   You don't always have to be number 17.   Laura Dugger: (54:42 - 55:06) That's so good. That is such the biblical principle of being faithful with little. And then sometimes He allows us to be faithful with much.   And, Margaret, this is not your only resource that you've written for all of us to enjoy. Can you share some of your other resources and what's available or what you've learned that we may learn if we pick up a copy?   Margaret Feinberg: (55:06 - 56:31) Yeah. You know, I've definitely the most passive. I just gave four years of my life to this book and Bible study.   I do a ridiculous amount of research, so, I'm very, very slow. So, top would be The God You Need to Know book and Bible study. But I think another one, and you referenced it earlier, is a book called Fight Back with Joy, and it's also a Bible study.   And it just takes a look. You know, it tells a little bit about my cancer story, but it's really about anybody who's battling anything. You know, sometimes in life we pick the battles, and sometimes the battles pick us.   And sometimes that's in your marriage, maybe a custody battle. It may be a health issue. It may be a financial calamity.   It may be the loss of a business. There's just so much in a strange relationship with a kid that you love so much. And in that darkness, you know, it's so easy to sink.   And this book and study is just, it shows that more than whimsy, joy is the weapon we use to fight life's battles. And gives just tons of practical tactics on how to enact that and what that looks like, and how, most importantly, how to rally around others in a healthy, beautiful way when they are in the midst of that. I think one of the failures of the church today is to really equip and train believers of every size and form of how to love others well in the midst of their pain.   What to say, what not to say, how to give, how to support. And this book and resource really does that well.   Laura Dugger: (56:32 - 56:43) Oh, so grateful for all of those. We'll make sure and add a link in the show notes. And if we want to connect or follow you after today's conversation, where would you like to direct us online?   Margaret Feinberg: (56:44 - 57:09) You can find me at my website at Margaret Feinberg. I do my most loving of my people, I'll just be honest, through my e-newsletter. I mean, I sit down, I pray over, I pour my heart and my life into that.   It's quiet. Nobody ever sees it. I am also on socials, on Instagram, at Facebook, at MA Feinberg, at Margaret Feinberg.   But I would love to connect with you. And if anybody wants to email, my email is hello@margaretfeinberg.com.   Laura Dugger: (57:09 - 57:26) Love it. Thank you for sharing all of that. And you may be aware that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment.   And so, as my final question for you today, Margaret, what is your savvy sauce?   Margaret Feinberg: (57:27 - 58:05) My savvy sauce is waking up every day and asking the Holy Spirit one question. When I don't know what to pray, I just say, “Holy Spirit, order my steps.” And if you will do this, you will do this for just 15 days.   I have a belief. It may just change the course of your life. The great part, it takes less than 30 seconds.   This is not doing heavy lifting. This is not time consuming, man. If you're raising those littles and you are overwhelmed, if you're running a business and you are overwhelmed, something very simple like this can change everything.   Laura Dugger: (58:06 - 58:10) So good. And you are so obviously connected to the vine, to the Lord. And I just want you to receive this, the fruit of the spirit.   I have experienced every single one in this conversation from engaging with you today. You are loving, joy, peace, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and self-controlled. And all wrapped into one.   So, praise the Lord for the way He made you. You are an absolute delight. I have enjoyed this so much.   Thank you for being my guest.   Margaret Feinberg: (58:10 - 58:11) What a privilege and joy. Grateful for you.   Laura Dugger: (58:11 - 1:02:30) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.    Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.    We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.    That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.    This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.    Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.    And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.    First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.    You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.    And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Release: Teaching our Children about Finances with Markie Castle   1 Timothy 6:6-10 (NIV) "But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."   *Transcription Below*   Markie Castle is a wife of 41 years, mother of 3 and is blessed with 7 grandchildren. After teaching at ICC for 20 years, she retired to help take care of all those blessings! Her husband Bob and she have been living in Peoria and attending Bethany Baptist Church for 24 years.  She has been coaching on finances and families for over 30 years.   Questions and Topics We Discuss: What is one key to managing our personal relationship with finances? What have been the most unexpected benefits of coaching your sons on wise financial stewardship? How did you teach your children to allocate percentages their money?   Thank You to Our Sponsors: WinShape Marriage   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:20) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy.   I first met Markie Castle through a local mom's group that was gathering at a church, and she was the speaker.   I was drawn to her sense of humor, her storytelling, and her wise practices. Her practical applications that she's going to explain near the end of this episode are practices that my husband Mark and I plan to implement beginning today. I'm so excited to share all of that with each of us listening now.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Markie.   Markie Castle: (1:21 - 1:22) It's a pleasure to be here.   Laura Dugger: (1:22 - 1:34) Well, will you just start us off by sharing more about your family and, specifically, the parenting piece that you say you got right by intentionally focusing on it?   Markie Castle: (1:35 - 4:13) I'd love to. I am incredibly blessed to be married to my husband, Bob, and we had three children that blessed us with wonderful wives and grandchildren. My husband and I started our marriage with him in school and me on a beginning teaching salary.   Today's dollars, it would be worth about $38,000. The two of us were living on $38,000 a year with him in school at the U of I and paying significant tuition. We were paying the tuition as well as supporting ourselves on that salary.   We were blessed to have a son three years later and then another son two years after that. My husband was holding a two-year-old and a two-week-old in his cap and gown. I remember showing our three sons' pictures of us saying, don't do this.   We supported ourselves entirely. We also did not see that we were in dire straits. We made my salary work by living in small apartments.   With one landlord, we made an agreement with him that we would do extra work around the property for a deduction in rent. We just made it work. We never saw any of this as a negative.   We also did not see that putting purchases on a credit card that we could not pay off at the end of the month as an option. We were happy where we were at and we loved it. My husband got a job and we moved out of the area.   We were at the time in Champaign-Urbana area. We moved to the Peoria area. We had a third son, which gave us three children in four years.   We still saw the need to keep our budget under control. Our meals were determined by what was on sale, what we had coupons for. Clothes were only bought on sale or from consignment shops.   Again, we never saw credit card debt as an option. If we didn't have the money, we didn't buy it. We wanted to raise our children to have a respect for money and to have an awareness of contentment.   We also wanted to have them experience the joy of having money to give away. This is what helped us. This is how we felt and we wanted to share that with our sons.   Laura Dugger: (4:14 - 4:37) I love that and I can just imagine all of the character building that comes out of really seeking to be wise stewards of what the Lord's entrusted to you. I'm wondering if you had some guiding scriptures on this topic of finances that really gave you insight into godly wisdom rather than the worldly kind.   Markie Castle: (4:38 - 9:05) As we know, besides love, money is written more in the Bible than anything else. It is so wise to go to the Bible for this. Luke 14:28 is such a good verse for a base.   It says, “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won't you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?” This is stating that we should budget our money and plan before we build a tower or buy a car or even buy a new blouse that you may want.   Another verse, 1Timothy 6:6-10 speaks to another extremely important part of leading a God-centered life, being content. It states, “But godliness with contentment is great gain for we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Some people eager for money have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.”   It reminds us of where our minds should be. We have heard many talks on finances, budgeting, etc. Very little time, if any, is spent on being content.   Even in the Christian financial counseling speakers, they do not spend time on this. Not only is it scriptural, it is something that makes budgeting and spending so much easier. If you are content, you don't feel that need to spend and let alone overspend.   It just makes budgeting so much easier. Matthew 6:24 is very blunt to the point. It says, “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”   It's not just what you have in your bank account. It's are we serving the Lord or are we serving money by needing a bigger house or whatever. Serving money over God can mean so many things. It can mean making secret purchases that you are hiding from your spouse.   I had a friend who used to have her sister buy her shoes that she wanted. And then she would bring them into the house without her husband knowing. But she had her sister buy it so her husband didn't see it on the credit card.   Or it can mean buying a brand-new car you can't afford and you go into debt for it. There is scripture that addresses this also in Romans 13:8 states, “Owe no one anything except to love each other.” And Proverbs 22:7 states, “The borrower is the slave of the lender.”   This is not to say a person should never have a loan. We needed a loan for our house. It was a smart move because we would have just paid rent forever.   But we needed a house and at the time we didn't have money for a house. Especially since my husband just got out of school. But when we were going looking at houses, the realtor said, “But you can afford this.”   And it was a much bigger house than we needed. And we said, “No, we don't need this.” “Yes, but you can get this.”   “Yes, I know, but this one's just fine.” We bought a house that we were able to pay off quickly. And we were very happy with it.   Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:30) I love hearing how you've applied scripture to your own lives, because really the ones that you shared, those are so practical and actionable. And we didn't even scratch the surface of all, like you said, that the Bible has to speak about money. But if you kind of had to boil it down, what would you say is one key to managing our personal relationship with finances?   Markie Castle: (9:30 - 13:58) I truly, truly believe that being content is truly key. It's so easy to become frustrated and discouraged with what you have. And many, many people watch HGTV.   And I personally love it. There are times that I cannot watch HGTV because I start wanting this or wanting that. When I watch it, it makes me start thinking if I only had a bigger kitchen or buying new furniture would transform this room.   All of these things can distract us into thinking about all the things I don't have, rather than seeing the things I do have. It can be a very dark road. But there's ways of overcoming that too.   I love for people to write down things that you do have, especially the important things like your family, your friends, your church community. Those are the things that are far more important than a bigger kitchen. I know for me, our house, when I moved into our house, I didn't even see our house when we purchased it because we thought we'd only be here three to four years max.   So, I figured three to four years, I don't need to see a house. I wanted it in a certain area and I needed four bedrooms for all of us. And that was about it.   Well, I knew I'd be here three to four years. And I think we're coming up to 25 years in August of being here. God had other plans for us.   And that was it. The kitchen is not what I would have chosen. It's rather small.   And do you know when I get most frustrated is when our family is over and we have 20 people and they're all in the kitchen. And I've got all these grandkids running around getting in the way. And I get frustrated over the smaller kitchen.   Think about it. I have my family here making memories. It's wonderful.   I'll take a small kitchen with all my family before I take a big kitchen without them. It was interesting. I taught at ICC.   And I walked into class one time and all the students were talking about how little they had, how poor they were. And I just listened to them for a while. And they were saying they didn't have any money.   And I said, “I don't mean to brag, but I am really, really wealthy.” And they looked and they said, “Really?” And I said, “Yeah, really wealthy.”   And he said, “Must be nice.” I said, “Yeah, it really is.” I said, “Do you realize that my husband and I, we have two cars?”   And they kind of looked at me and they said, “Yeah.” I said, “No, no, no, no. Do you understand that when I walk into my house, I have heat in the winter?   And, and air conditioning in the summer.” And they kind of looked at me and go, “Yeah.” And I said, “And I can go to this faucet and I can turn this handle and fresh water comes out.”   They all looked and said, “Yeah.” And I said, “That is how wealthy I am.” And they all kind of looked and they said, “We get it.”   And we are very wealthy in this country. We are very wealthy. See, having what you have could be seen as extremely wealthy in many countries.   Even when it's their norm. But with war-torn countries, it's even worse. It's just all about perspective.   Laura Dugger: (13:58 - 14:10) Well, I think you're highlighting the keys to contentment. It's all about perspective and also gratitude. How would you define stewardship?   Markie Castle: (14:11 - 14:19) I would just say it's taking great care of what God has given us and using it for his glory.   Laura Dugger: (14:19 - 14:27) Well, and what has been the most unexpected benefit of coaching your sons on wise financial stewardship?   Markie Castle: (14:28 - 17:52) That is such a great question. I would say the independence that they had as teenagers and adults. It was incredible to see how they were independent with money and other ways because of it.   Each son also married women who were financially aware. We never really talked about that. When our children got married, we had one stipulation that they married a believer for us to bless the marriage.   But it was amazing that they all married women who were financially conservative. We have never had any trouble or issues with any of our children with money. I know that some people will say, you never lend relatives money, you give it to them because you know you'll never get it back.   Well, we have lent our kids money for certain predicaments when they first started off and they started paying us back immediately. There's a lot of talk about whether you should let your children move back into your house. Now, I know people have said, “Nope, once my kids are gone, they're gone.”   And I don't think that's very loving. I think that anybody is allowed back, you know, if they need to come back and live with us, even if it's somebody in our church family, they would be welcomed. All three of our boys at some point came back to live with us for a while for different reasons.   And we actually charged them rent. And they were very good with that. In fact, they liked it because then they weren't freeloading.   Now, they didn't know it at the time, but we took their rent and put it away and kept it separately. And then when they moved out, they had a nice little sum there that they could use for a down payment for their house or for moving costs or whatever. I think it's important to watch your children grow, to give them.   And these are the things that we have seen that we didn't expect. All of our boys are very financially secure. And they only have mortgage debt, which they are all paying off quicker than what was scheduled.   And this is just a mindset. They are not suffering because they don't have the new car. In fact, our one son and his wife, they bought our old van 10 years ago, and they still have it.   They're at 195,000 miles on the car. Now, I think she wears this like a badge of honor. She's going to make it to 200,000.   They have been putting money away for a new car. They have enough money to buy a new car, but they're going to wait until they need it. And when they need it, they're going to be able to go in and say, here is the money for the car.   I don't need a loan. Those are the things that kind of surprised me.   Laura Dugger: (17:53 - 17:58) I think oftentimes there's a lot of joy when we have limits.   Markie Castle: (17:59 - 18:04) Exactly. I agree with you. It does give you joy to know that you have that freedom.   Laura Dugger: (18:06 - 18:22) Well, and we've spoken kind of about big picture, and I'd love to move in the funnel now down to actionable and practical. So, when you look back, how old were your children when you and Bob began training them on finances?   Markie Castle: (18:24 - 19:08) Truly, as soon as our children understood the meaning of money, we started. We started our oldest son when he was five years old by giving him allowance. The others started when they were four because they saw what was happening with the older child.   And I know a lot of people relate to this and they wanted to be a part of it. You know, your younger ones sometimes learn faster because of the older ones. It was important to start when they were wanting things at the stores, whether it was toys or candy at the checkout aisle, etc.   They needed an awareness that everything costs money and they couldn't have everything.   Laura Dugger: (19:09 - 19:32) Well, and I remember you coming to speak to our mom's group one time. And even if somebody is wondering, well, how do I keep this fair between children? You even had a solution for that because with your kids at the different ages, I remember you saying you started them with one dollar per year old they were per week.   So, the four-year-old only made four dollars for the five-year-old made five.   Markie Castle: (19:33 - 21:21) That's right. Well, and it's funny you say about the fairness. Even when our children, so we had three boys, they were all two years apart, so they were really involved with one another.   They were great friends. But I remember going to my husband's mom was watching our children when we ran to get something to do a few errands. And we came back with a pair of shoes that our oldest child needed.   And she looked at us and said she didn't get anything for the other boys. And I said, but they didn't need new shoes and they don't need anything. And she goes, but you can't bring something in for one child without bringing in something for the others.   And I reiterated, but they didn't need anything. And do you know what? Our boys, we never thought anything of that.   Our boys have never said, well, why didn't I get anything? And if they did, we'd say, “Well, you didn't need this or you didn't need that.” Our children never counted what the other ones have.   Now saying that when it came to the birthdays, we gave the same monetary value to all of them when it came to Christmas, when it came to things. But when it really came to that, one son needed a pair of shoes, but the others didn't. We didn't go out and get shoes for all of them.   And they just were raised with that. And to this day, they all know that it all comes out fairly in the end. You know, we don't bring home things just for one, the same child every time.   Does that make sense?   Laura Dugger: (21:21 - 21:32) Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate that perspective. I'm also curious, were there any other memorable phrases you and your husband taught your children?   Markie Castle: (21:33 - 26:37) You know, there were many. One of the things we had said to them was we can afford anything. But we can't afford everything.   So, we would impress upon them how fortunate we were to afford things. But we certainly can't afford everything. We had friends who would never purchase soda and we did the same thing.   But they really like to travel and the kids like to travel. And so, they wouldn't buy a soda in a restaurant or buy a snack at the mall because they wanted to travel. And they would ask their kids, you know, would you rather purchase a soda or snack now or enjoy the soda or snack in Europe?   And it made the kids think. OK, so again, this is all in what you choose. I was listening to someone at a talk and actually at a moment at our church that said, “You know, what could you save if you didn't get your daily latte from Starbucks?”   And I'm thinking, OK, and his point was at six dollars per drink. You could say. And I figured this out, two thousand one hundred and eighty-four dollars per year.   After two years, you could have enough money to go to Hawaii. Now, that's great. This particular person loves to travel and he doesn't like coffee.   So, to him, it was a no brainer. But if someone doesn't like to travel. But enjoys that daily vacation of going to Starbucks.   This may be the one they would choose. So, we're all different in what we like and what we want. But.   The important thing is, is that you're not adding this to a debt that you're paying 24 percent interest because that six dollar cup of coffee is actually going to cost you much more than the six dollars. Also, I was teaching a group of nearly married couples about finances and. Someone brought up that they can't afford a date night.   I mean, after babysitting, after dinner at the restaurant, etc. they can't afford that. And babysitting nowadays is ridiculously expensive. And another couple said that they have date nights every other week.   What they do is they trade off with another couple for babysitting and they pack a dinner and go on a picnic. So, basically, their date night costs them nothing. Not being able to afford an expensive dinner for a date night.   That puts you in a mindset that you're doing without. Instead, look at what you have. You know, taking a hike.   Visiting a museum on a free day. Getting a membership to places that you could then feel like you're going for free. Walking along the river.   All of these are wonderful ways to have a date night. My husband and I would have a date night in our home. We would feed the boys their favorite chicken nuggets and macaroni and cheese.   And we put them to bed. We would then, I would get out and have tablecloth and have candlelight. And we would have a quiet adult meal by candlelight.   It was a wonderful date night. And it cost us nothing. Now, where we were, we could not afford babysitting.   And we did not have people who could babysit. We didn't have a community that we could share babysitting. We did find that as the kids got older.   And we utilized that, which was wonderful. We used to share a Friday night with a family. This is when the kids were a little older.   And we would switch with them. Every other Friday night, we would switch kids. We would take their kids for one of the Fridays.   And then two weeks later, they would take our kids. And they took them overnight. So, we had, you know, Friday evening and Saturday morning.   And it cost us nothing. And the joy of that was when we took their kids, it was a blast. Because we always planned on doing extra special things.   Because it was like one big party. It worked very well. And we were able to have free babysitting just because we exchanged.   As opposed to paying for a babysitter.   Laura Dugger: (26:38 - 29:02) And I love the creativity. How you problem solved that to still go for your date night. Because that was a value.   And I think you're empowering all of us that these options are possible. And we do have a choice in this situation. And then also the reality that we're going to operate within the reality of trade-offs.   And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse?   And a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. 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To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage dot org slash savvy, S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   And as you and Bob continued to train your children with finances, how did you see this play out with each of their different personalities?   Markie Castle: (29:04 - 32:55) Although we raised our boys within the same manner, we were blessed with three totally different children. Totally. When it came to money, one was a saver, one was a spender, and one was a minimalist.   And although they all were different, they all needed the structure of financial awareness. So, our eldest wanted to save every dime that he was given. And you know what?   He's still that way. He wants to save, save, save, save, save. Our middle child would spend every dime that he would receive.   It would not be in his pocket for more than a couple of minutes. Then our youngest child didn't care about buying anything, which was very different from the saver. He was just a minimalist.   I don't need anything. It just doesn't matter. And he is still that way.   So, our spender needed to learn the importance of budgeting and saving. They all needed to learn it, but it was extremely important for him. And he did learn.   When he was about 10 or 11, he lost some money for not doing certain chores. And he looked at us and said, the only reason you had children was to make money. My husband and I were literally speechless.   We kind of just looked at him and we didn't know what to say. And then he just looked at us after a couple of moments and he said, that's the stupidest thing I've ever said. And yep, we all had a good laugh.   He did learn to budget and it was interesting. So, when he was in high school and starting to date, he took this girl that he wound up dating for several years. And he was going to go to the movies and he was a gentleman.   He was absolutely a gentleman. And they walked into the movies and he paid for the movies because that's what you do. And then as they were walking past the concession stand, he said, “Well, do you want popcorn?”   And she said, “Oh, that'd be nice.” And he said, “Okay, well, you're going to need to get it yourself. I'm not paying those prices.”   And she was kind of, ”Okay.” Now we needed to teach him a little bit more about dating with that. But it was like he paid for the movies.   He wasn't going to pay $10 for a box of popcorn. So, he had learned the value of money. When you can get into the movie for less money than a box of popcorn, there's something to be thought about that.   I am happy to say that while he did not marry her, but I'm happy to say that he did marry someone and he learned to budget. And she is all about budget, budget, budget. But that also means that they are able to enjoy, enjoy, enjoy.   I think budget gets a really bad name because you think that means that you can't buy things if you budget. And I see it as the exact opposite. If I budget $50 for entertainment, for the month, for the week, for whatever, you can enjoy having that entertainment because that's money that is free and clear for you to use.   Laura Dugger: (32:56 - 33:14) Yeah, I'm with you on that too, because I do think that self-control that really is a fruit of the spirit, but that discipline and self-control leads to freedom eventually. And so, again, those limits provide joy and freedom, which is counterintuitive, but the Lord's economy.   Markie Castle: (33:14 - 33:34) That's right. But once you do it, you realize, and we have seen this happen, that they go, “Oh, I feel better about going to the movies because it's already been planned, which goes back to when you build a tower, you should plan that.”   Laura Dugger: (33:35 - 33:43) You've mentioned that you did offer an allowance. So, what were your allowance or commission guidelines?   Markie Castle: (33:44 - 35:58) So, there's many trains of thought with this. We felt that there were certain chores that needed to be done as part of the household. So, making your bed, setting the table, helping with dinner, cleaning up the dishes, sweeping the floor.   Obviously, our children were expected to do more as they got older. I would give them opportunities, though, to do over and beyond, and then they could make extra money. So, there were certain expectations on a daily basis, and that was part of being part of the household, being part of the family.   But to go over and beyond would give us the time. Now, I do know some people pay for everything that they do, and I understand where they're coming from with that, but then they may choose not to make their bed or choose not to set the table because they don't want the money, but then other people need the table to be set. So, that can cause issues, too.   We never, when it came to grades, I know that's something that's talked about, we never paid for certain grades in school. We did allow them, you know, at the time it was, well, if you get this many A's, you can get a pizza or something, you know, from Pizza Hut or something. We would do that, but we never paid for specific grades for our kids.   There was an expectation that they would do well, not for the money. But we would all go out and celebrate when they all had good report cards. So, I know that there's different trains of thought with that.   You know, there are some others who will put a price on certain chores and have the allowance reflect that money they made. Our boys received their allowance, but there were times that we charged them when we needed to do their chore, like pick up their clothes in the bathroom after they've been asked to do so. So, if we did something, we kind of charged them for it.   And that's when our son said, well, you just had children to make money.   Laura Dugger: (35:59 - 37:14) Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well.   If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.   With our family, our daughters currently are nine, eight, six, and four. And so, they have the understanding of give, save, spend. But just this summer, our sweet and very generous neighbor, Jillian, James and Jillian, have hired our oldest two, Sayla and Shiloh, to water their plants while they're traveling. And so, this is their first paid job opportunity.   And so, my plan with my husband is to train our girls with this podcast. And there's a question I want to ask you next that I believe will even guide us with our conversation and how to train them. So, when your children were earning money or making this allowance, even from a young age, how did you teach them to split their money?   Markie Castle: (37:16 - 42:21) So, we set up our allowance that they were given one-dollar times their age, which you had alluded to early on. So, each week, a five-year-old would get five dollars a week, which sounds like a lot, right? Or a ten-year-old would get ten dollars.   And that sounds awesome, right? But it was broken down. So, we first would take ten percent which goes to charity.   We wanted to teach the children about tithing. And that was the first. The next, we had ten percent that was taken for taxes.   And we used that for family fun night, which made those nights special to them. Now, what they learned from having their taxes taken, when they went to get their first job, like when they were 16 or 17, and our oldest son got a job at the Zoli's when it was there. And he was not in shock when he was given his paycheck and taxes were taken out.   He understood that. All his other friends were complaining about them taking it. But our children knew there were taxes, and taxes went for the good of the community.   We also took ten percent for retirement. And that was just good habits to form. We kept it.   We kept account of how much it was. And when they got out of college, we gave them their retirement. Wow.   Now in their 30s, they have a financial guy and he is shocked at how set our children are for the future. Then 20 percent went to college. Once again, this was kind of a mindset.   Now, if you don't think your children are going to go to college, I would still recommend at least going to community college or a trade or whatever. We saved this and gave it to them to put towards their expenses when they went to college. So, we literally gave them their money and said, this is what you have saved over all these years.   Now you have 50 percent left. So, 25 percent went to savings. And they had to put this in a separate category, and they needed to buy something with it that was $25 or more.   We wanted them to learn how to save up for that special whatever they wanted. They could spend that on whatever. So, that would make for a five-year-old, fifty cents went to church, fifty cents for taxes, fifty cents for retirement, a dollar for college, a dollar twenty-five for savings.   And what they got at the end, they got a dollar twenty-five for the week, which is a good amount for a five-year-old. But let me just say, when I say so they can spend it, if you're the parent, it is okay to say no to what they are purchasing. Our middle son at a point, now he was older, but he wanted to get 10 piercings in one ear.   We didn't think this was a wise decision, not all at the same time. He respectfully stated that he was old enough that he didn't need our permission and that he could pay for it. Now, mind you, he was living with us at the time, but he said he didn't need our permission.   And he said it respectfully. We did tell him no, and that as long as he was living with us, reaping the benefits of our house, utilities, food, vacations, he still needs to abide by our parental decisions. And you know what?   It wasn't an issue. He said, okay. And when he was on his own, you know what?   He had become wiser over those couple of years and he didn't do it. So, it's okay to say no to some things. And saying that, doing this allowance, it makes going places so much nicer.   I never said no to my kids. And it was funny because when we talk about moms' groups or whatever, I said, “Oh, I never tell my children no. They can have, you know, what they asked me for things, I never tell them no.”   And they go, “Really?” And I said, “Yeah.” I'd say, “Do you have the money for it?”   Oh, okay. And then it wasn't me saying no. They needed to make that decision.   This sounds so negative and it truly is not. Our boys took great pride in paying for their own things. I mean, they used discernment in their choices.   And they took great care of those toys that they bought. There was a sense of ownership and responsibility to it. This was not negative.   It was truly positive and taught them much more than just about money.   Laura Dugger: (42:22 - 42:41) Well, and it's such a great real-world experience. I've never heard someone teach like this before, where you broke it down so specifically. But really, it reflected how they would handle money as adults.   And so, I think it's brilliant. And I'm wondering if you have any other practical recommendations that we haven't covered yet.   Markie Castle: (42:43 - 45:07) I would give a few. So, in their allowance, I put the cash in clear containers labeled so that they could see what they had. When they were older, we moved it to paper because I wanted them to be taught about how banks work.   Another couple of things. We never had issues going through candy aisles or going to events. We would pay for the tickets.   If they wanted to buy a snack like at Six Flags or something, they could. But they'd have to use their own money. Now, we're not cruel.   We would buy lunch for them. But if they wanted that $10 soft pretzel, they needed to buy it. Another thing, if they received money for a birthday gift, we felt that that was all theirs to spend.   Because to me, that gift, you know, if they were given a toy, we wouldn't split that toy up and give 10% to charity. So, they could keep all the money and go and buy what they wanted. One other thing, and some people may find this controversial, but I would suggest getting a credit card for your children as soon as you can while they are living with you.   And then you can give them the guidance that they need. Our son learned from an early age that you only charge items that you know you will be able to pay off at the end of the month. A debit card is good too, that they need to have that money in there.   But we liked setting the habit of paying off the credit card every month. A debit card would say, you can't slide this card unless you have that money in the bank. Either way, I would highly recommend you get your children something so you can give them the guidance of how to use it.   We knew people who wouldn't allow their children to date until they were 18. And my thought was, I don't want to give my children the go ahead to date when they go off to college. I wanted to be able to guide them.   So, we said, when you're 16, you can date. And then we were able to guide them and teach them along the way.   Laura Dugger: (45:08 - 45:14) That's so good. And can you think of anything else that you want to make sure we don't overlook today?   Markie Castle: (45:15 - 45:51) After counseling and mentoring many couples who have asked us for help, I realized that financial difficulties and marriage issues go hand in hand. That puts a stress in a marriage that comes out in other ways. If someone is having financial issues, you need to get help.   I would also say to teach your children so they are raised with a God-honoring respect for money. 1 Timothy 6:10 doesn't state that money is the root of all evil. It states that “the love of money is the root of all evil.”   Laura Dugger: (45:52 - 45:59) Well, I love all of the practical tips you've shared. And do you have any other favorite stories that come to mind?   Markie Castle: (46:00 - 48:23) One that is particularly close to me is we had very, very close friends who actually my husband worked under him for many years. But we were very close. And in fact, we moved together and with my husband's job and very close.   He was an exec, a cat, very high up. And making more money was the most important thing. Climbing that corporate ladder.   And suddenly he just realized how unhappy he was. He also put his children at bay because he worked so much. He needed to have the better cars, the better house, the better everything.   And one evening, there's a knock at the door. We weren't expecting him. And they were just standing there.   And he just said, “Can we talk?” And he came in and he looked at us and said, “When is enough??” And he had tears in his eyes.   And he knew that money was driving him at the cost of his marriage, although they were still together, but at the cost of the relationship with his children. And he said, “When is enough? And we talked to him.   We again shared the gospel, which we had shared before. And when you have Christ in your life, for me, that's enough. That's all I need is Christ.   He turned his life over to the Lord. He became a believer. He quit his job, which he had planned on.   And financially, he was great. And what he does now, he does a lot of mission work. He goes to different places that have been hit by a tornado.   And he's with the group that goes all over taking care of other people. And he is far, far wealthier than he ever was.   Laura Dugger: (48:24 - 48:48) Wow, Markie, that is so powerful. And what an incredible story to start to close our time together with. But I still have one final question for you, because our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment.   And so, this is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?   Markie Castle: (48:49 - 49:28) I would say beware of giving your children everything they want. And everything you think they need. Wanting is a great lesson to learn.   And as we've been told in the Bible, patience is a virtue. Having children earning their own money and spending it teaches them independence and develops them to be adults who are secure with the choices they have learned to make. This is far more than just teaching them about money.   Much more is developed within them.   Laura Dugger: (49:28 - 50:00) That is so good. And truly, Markie, this conversation, I can't wait to share it with all of our girls, with Isla and Kessler, too, being even just six and four. I think you have so many helpful practical takeaways.   And you're such a gifted teacher. So, it's been a joy to learn from you during this time. So, thank you, not only for applying scriptures to the way you interact with finances, but thank you for also sharing those applications with us today.   And thank you for being my guest.   Markie Castle: (50:01 - 50:10) Laura, it's truly been my pleasure. I appreciate you and I appreciate how God-centered you are and with this podcast.   Laura Dugger: (50:11 - 53:29) Wow, thank you so much. That encouragement means a lot. One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

273. Wise Living: Why to Get Outside and Travel and Read Aloud with Amber O'Neal Johnston   “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.” James 1:17 NIV   *Transcription Below*   Amber O'Neal Johnston is an author, speaker, and Charlotte Mason homeschooling mom who blends life-giving books and a culturally rich environment for her four children and others seeking to do the same. She recommends we offer children opportunities to see themselves and others reflected in their lessons, especially throughout their books, and she's known for sharing literary “mirrors and windows” on HeritageMom.com and @heritagemomblog. Amber is also the author of Soul School: Taking Kids on a Joy-Filled Journey Through the Heart of Black American Culture and A Place to Belong, a guide for families of all backgrounds on raising kids to celebrate their heritage, community, and the world.   www.HeritageMom.com www.SoulSchoolBook.com www.APlaceToBelongBook.com www.instagram.com/heritagemomblog www.facebook.com/heritagemomblog   Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka   Questions that We Discussed: Looking back, what would you say has helped to shape your children's character the most? What have you learned about the importance of getting our kids (and ourselves) out into nature? How do you actually make time to be a content creator and to also homeschool and travel and host?   Other Related Episodes from The Savvy Sauce: 53 Practical Life Tips with Blogger, Rach Kincaid 57 Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee 82 Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller 84 Ordering Your Priorities with Kat Lee 103 Making Family Memories with Jessica Smartt 200 Planting Seeds of Faith in Our Children with Courtney DeFeo 204 Charlotte Mason Inspired Mini-Series: A Delectable Education with Emily Kiser 207 Cultivating Character in Our Children with Cynthia Yanof 212 School Series: Benefits of Homeschooling with Jodi Mockabee 253 Low Tech Parenting with Erin Loechner   Connect with The Savvy Sauce Our Website, Instagram or Facebook    Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 2:01) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Inc. in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman's in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LehmanGM.com.   Amber O'Neal Johnston is my fascinating guest for today. She's an author and speaker and coach and she's just chosen to live a very wise life as a wife and mother, and I think you're going to enjoy gleaning practical tips such as the benefits of getting our children out in nature regardless of their age. She has teens and makes this super practical for things that they would enjoy too, and she shares these incredible benefits of what happens when we simply step outdoors. She's also going to share approachable ways to introduce our family to great art and other cultures, and she gives us a fabulous book list, so, make sure you stay tuned through the end of the episode so that you can see some of the top books that she recommends. Finally, if you don't have a copy of her own latest release entitled Soul School, I highly recommend you purchase that today. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Amber.   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (2:02 - 2:04) Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.   Laura Dugger: (2:04 - 2:14) Well, I'd love for you just to start us off and introduce us to your family, and will you just share a glimpse of your values and lifestyle?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (2:15 - 3:48) Absolutely. So, I live outside of Atlanta, Georgia with my husband Scott and our four children. We are just entering birthday season, but shortly they will be 16, 14, 12, and 10. The girls are the two oldest. The boys are the two youngest, and they've been homeschooled from the beginning, so, we're a homeschooling family. I'm originally from Illinois. My husband's originally from Ohio, but we met here in Atlanta at the High Museum of Art, which is really special. We are art loving, you know, fine arts loving, liberal arts loving family, and so, the idea that we met at the museum, I will just cherish that forever. I came to, before homeschooling, I was a stay-at-home mom, and prior to having children, I have an MBA, and I worked in corporate America in like marketing and advertising, and Scott comes from a similar background with the MBA, and he was doing work in that area too, so, we had that as a connection point, but I have always stayed home with the kids, and you know, our values are rooted in our Christian faith, and we're an African-American family, and so, we have values and cultural aspects that enter our home through that avenue as well. We are world travelers, so, we enjoy that as part of who we are, and I'm an author and a speaker, and I'm just a very happy homeschooler.   Laura Dugger: (3:48 - 4:12) I love that, and it sounds like such a rich and abundant life, and there's two little connections that I have to go back to. My husband and I had a date at that same museum. I love that you met your husband there. Oh wow, that's wild! And so, we met when we were in Atlanta, but live in Illinois now, so, which part of Illinois were you originally from?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (4:12 - 4:33) I'm from Elgin, Illinois. It's out past O'Hare Airport, and I was born and raised there. My parents were both public school principals there. My dad was principal of Elgin High, and there's actually an elementary school, Ron O'Neal Elementary School in Elgin, named after my father, so, that is where I'm from.   Laura Dugger: (4:33 - 4:46) Wow, okay, so, then even with that piece, your father being a principal, and then you said you've homeschooled since the beginning. Did you always anticipate you would homeschool, or what was your journey into that?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (4:47 - 7:15) Oh my gosh, never, and it's both of my parents were principals, so, that's wild. My grandfather was an elected school board official. My sister was an elected school board official, so, public school is just, you know, in my blood from the very beginning, and that's what I assumed I would do for my kids at first. Once Scott and I got married, and we had discussed it, we decided that I would stay home when they were little, and when they were old enough to go to school, I would go back to work, and my salary would pay for private Christian school tuition, and as the years, you know, months really came to fruition for my oldest, my husband started backpedaling, and he started talking this crazy talk about homeschooling. I'm like, that's a switcheroo for you. What are you talking about? I was like, that's weird. I don't want to do that. I don't feel called to do that. That does not seem like a comfortable space for me. I don't want my kids to endure that, and ultimately, I lacked confidence in that. I couldn't even articulate it. It felt scary, terrifying. Why would I take something so weighty into my own hands, and Scott was very persistent, and I can't even explain why he was so persistent about it, but I think to me, I feel like it was planted in him by the Lord, and he felt that this was the way he wanted to lead his family, and he did it so graciously because I was very resistant. He asked, would you please try it for one year, and if you are unhappy, you don't think it's right. I'll never ask you about it again, and that gave me a softer place to land where I felt like it wasn't signing up for a long-term commitment because I knew I was going to hate it, and I said, sure. I will do that, and oh, my gosh. It was the most amazing year, and I laugh now because my daughter was four, so, she's like four and turned five during that year, and so, she was so young, and people were like, well, what were you really doing, but I took it so seriously. I was doing all things, and I joined a homeschool support group, and I was reading about it, and I realized on Friday, I'm a stay-at-home mom, and on Monday, I took on this identity of a homeschooling mom, and it's just been a beautiful journey for us. I'm so thankful that the Lord led Scott in that way. He knew what was right, not just for our children, but for me, too, when I had no vision for it, and so, I'm just, you know, very grateful.   Laura Dugger: (7:16 - 7:30) I love that story. That's such an encouragement, and, okay, your oldest is turning 16, so, when you look back, what would you say has helped shape your children's character the most?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (7:32 - 9:29) Well, I think the time that we've all had to spend together, like intense amounts of time, so, not just quality time or quantity time, but both, and I think that there's nothing else I could have done that could replace that, so, I think that's one of the things. I think my own acceptance of the divine nature of me being their mother and those being my children, and really that leading me to embrace my mother's intuition, which is something that I was hesitant for at first because there are so many experts, and surely they know so much more than me, and that's not to say that that's not important. I read so widely. I'm always reading expert ideas and views, but what I realized is that those things can help me as tools. They can mentor me, but they can't master me because the master has already appointed me as the perfect mom for these children, and nobody knows them, the little tiny details of them that nobody knows more than me, and so, when I leaned into that and I'm like, yeah, this says this online, this book said that, this thing says that, I can take what I can from those, but ultimately I feel the spirit telling me and leading me in this way with these children, and when I really leaned into that, I have a right to do that. I am their mother. That revolutionized things, and I think that's what's helped shape my children's character the most is my willingness to lean into how I'm led to lead them, and so, that's been a motherhood journey for me, and I hope that it's a legacy that I leave with my children.   Laura Dugger: (9:31 - 9:53) And do you have any specific stories that come to mind that were examples of that mother's intuition, something that really I think it is such a gift from the Lord and that the Holy Spirit speaks to us in some unique way as mothers to be in tune with our kids, so, is there a time that it really benefited them when you exercised your mother's intuition?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (9:53 - 12:42) Well, there was one time with my third, my son, my oldest son, his name is Beckett, and he was in the high chair eating while I was braiding my daughter's hair, and I heard him start making like these really weird noises, and I looked over and it was like he was choking and gagging, and I run over, and but he seemed fine, but then he would do it again, and he started sweating, and you know today I really would say, you should call 9-1-1, but I didn't, I threw all the kids in the car, and I rushed to the ER, and when we got there he wasn't choking anymore, he wasn't sweating, they did his vitals and everything, and they said, well mom, whatever happened passed, he's fine, and you guys can go home, and I was like, no, he's not fine, I'm looking at him, he's not my little boy, his vitals are checking out, but he's not looking at me the way he normally looks at me, he's not interacting with me, the little funny things that I can make him smile all the time, he's not responding to them, and so, like, I know you have your tests, but like my, I'm telling you something's wrong with my little boy, so, they have a doctor, he comes in to tell me everything's fine, and he's sending me home, and so, I was like, well I'm not leaving, I'll just spend the night in the ER then with all my kids, because I know something's wrong, and the doctor, who's this older man, he turns to me, he looks me in my eyes, and he says, you know, in all my years of medical training, there's something that they never told us, but something I've learned throughout my career, never doubt a mother's intuition, and he said, we'll take him and run more tests, and they took Beckett back to run more tests, and they came back and said, you were right, he has swallowed a coin, and it's like just teetering on the precipice, and so, at times it was blocking his airway, and at times it was shifted a little bit, and we have to go in immediately and get it, and that could have choked him, if you had just gone home and put him down to bed, and so, in that story, I took away two things, one, that I am his mother, and I don't care what the test says, or what the data says, or what the news, or a book, at the end of the day, I knew that something was wrong with my boy, the other thing is the graciousness of that doctor, to see my humanity and my personhood beyond just the insurance payment, or protocol, or whatever, it let me know that like there's something powerful about letting other people know that you see them, and that you are connected to them, as another part of God's creation, like he respected me on that level, so.   Laura Dugger: (12:43 - 13:35) That is incredible, I'm so grateful that that story has a happy ending, and that you were assertive to say that, I think sometimes as women, probably especially as Christian women, we can think, oh I want to be nice, or not push back on somebody, but I love that you were assertive, it was what was in your child's best interest, and like you highlighted, that doctor's humility is admirable, but Amber, you mentioned too that you're a writer, and you contribute a lot to things like the Wild and Free bundles, and I was always struck by the way that you would be out in nature, and there's so much to learn, so, if you had to boil it down, what wisdom would you have to share from what you've learned about the importance of getting our kids and ourselves outdoors into nature?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (13:36 - 16:49) Yeah, that's so funny, I love that you asked me that, because I like to tell people I was raised in the air conditioning, and so, there is no one who began motherhood further away from nature and being outdoors than me, like, and I can look back at those early days of like, I knew you could take your kids to the playground, and I did do that, but like what else would you do outside, you know, and people would be like, oh we went hiking on this trail, and I was like, where did you get on it, like where do you find a trailhead, like I mean this is back, like this is where I was coming from, and I was just like, and then what would we do, like we just walk, and do we talk about trees, I don't know any trees, I know Christmas trees are evergreens, you know, so, it was just like coming from this very like foundational place where I didn't know anything, but I believed, right, I believed, I somehow inherently believed when I read that being outdoors was important for children, so, I'm reading Charlotte Mason's work, and she's talking about nature study, I'm reading Last Child in the Woods by Louvre, and I'm hearing about this, he calls it a nature deficit disorder, and I'm reading all of these different kind of people who really respected childhood, and personhood, and really wanted the best for children, I'm reading a Christian perspective of the joy in connecting with God's creation, first and foremost, but also this idea of encouraging natural and authentic physical activity, running, climbing, balancing, exploring, developing coordination, and confidence, and the mental health components, you know, reducing stress, and improving mood, and not just for the kids, but my friend from A Thousand Hours Outside, she talks about how the first time she like took her kids out for the whole day, it was for her, because she was going crazy with these all these little kids, and the house, and the bags, and the diaper bag, and the snacks, and she didn't know what else to do, so, she just went outside, and how healing that was, and therapeutic that was for all of them, the idea of curiosity, of fueling curiosity, and creativity, I've never seen my kids come up with the most, I mean, they come up with imaginative things in our house, but outside, the, oh my goodness, the things they come up with, the things they create, and make, and the storytelling that comes out of that, and I think the family bonds, our experiences, it's another way of memory making, I mean, we make memories when we go see plays, and musicals, and travel as well, so, it's not the only way, but it's a strong way of that shared outdoor adventures, so, like a couple weeks ago, we were all whitewater rafting, it's funny, like a lot of funny things happen when you're out there doing crazy stuff, and so, we have a lot of laughter, and we have a lot of inside jokes that come from our time together, so, I think that all of those, it's not just one thing, it's one of those rare things where there are all the pros, and there really are no cons, and so, I intentionally embrace that for my family, even though it's everything that I didn't have growing up.   Laura Dugger: (16:50 - 17:41) Wow, that is so interesting, I love how books have really inspired you to make changes that have benefited your entire family, and I'm thinking back years ago when I was in grad school, studying marriage and family therapy, there was this book that we read, Letters to a Young Therapist, I believe the author is Mary Pipher, and she said something that I found to be very true in my life, she said, from childhood when we all look back, our memories typically boil down to three categories, one is family dinners around the table, the second is traveling with our family, and the third is anytime we were outdoors, and so, I'm wondering that legacy that you're giving your kids, they're going to have an abundance of memories in all three of those buckets.   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (17:42 - 18:29) Yeah, I love that, and I had never read that, it's making me want to go and read her work, but I can't agree more, I mean that's what I've seen anecdotally, at least in my family, and it's definitely been the case for us, I can totally see that, the other thing I love about outdoors too is it's free, you know, so, there have, we've had times of plenty and times of not quite enough financially throughout our journey, due to layoffs, and you know, recessions, and all these different things, but that has been one thing that the travel hasn't always been as consistent as we wanted, but the nature, the time outside has always been accessible, even during COVID, that was accessible to us, so, I love it for that too, but yeah, that's really cool.   Laura Dugger: (18:29 - 18:41) Absolutely, okay, so, you started with, you were getting some inspiration from different books and speakers, but then when did you actually implement this? Do you remember how old your kids were?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (18:42 - 20:11) Right away, so, my oldest was like four, five years old, and we started going outside, now again, we had always been going to the park, so, they had been spending a lot of time outside, but I will say like that's like a very, you know, man-made structures, and you know, I can't think of it, like very cultivated space, so, we weren't spending time in uncultivated space until around there, so, maybe a four-year-old, two-year-old, and infant, and I know they started growing up in that way, and I had kids in an ergo on the back, and I remember hiking with a kid in an ergo on the front, and then snapped another one on the back, and you know, these are memories I have of being outdoors thoroughly by the time the boys were coming along, and I remember the story where we were at a creek, and I looked up for a moment, and just sheer panic that my little boy was gone, he wasn't in my eyesight anymore, and the girls were playing there, and I'm like, you know, and I look, and look, and look, and there's nothing, and no one, and all I can think you sees in the water, and I wasn't paying attention, and my heart's racing, and I'm like, girls, where's your brother? And my daughter says, mommy, he's sleeping on your back. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I just think, like, I was so tired during those years, and I just remember, I would just think, let's just go outside, and some days that's just the most I could come up with, but yeah, I was freaking out, and the little boy was sleeping on my back.   Laura Dugger: (20:12 - 21:50) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Burchie family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.   If you visit their dealership today though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.   I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so, come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business. Learn more at their website, LehmanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.   I'm wondering too, so, when you began, what did you start with? What did you do outside?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (21:51 - 24:13) So, we started with walking, and I also was very verbal about my, what I felt were my inadequacies with friends, and that's why, you know, I can't overemphasize the, I haven't brought that up yet, but the idea of community. You don't need a hundred friends, just a few people who either are doing the same thing as you, have done it, or know you personally so well. But I had a friend who was like this outdoor enthusiast, and I always admired her for that, and she'd be like, oh, I went to the hydrangeas, they're coming out today, and they're gonna bloom for four days, and you know, like, and she would be like, oh, do you want some wild blueberries? And I'd be looking at her with side eye, like, girl, I only eat blueberries from Publix, because how do I know that you know what you're doing? You know, those could be poisonous berries you identified wrong. So, we had this kind of ongoing thing, I just asked her, I was like, hey, could we go outside with you guys sometimes? And she was like, of course. So, our first hike was with her and her kids, and she showed me how to go outside and do nothing. Like, we didn't do anything, we just walked. And the kids let us, you know, they would stop and ponder things and ask questions, which she knew the answers to, but wouldn't answer. So, she was like, well, what do you think? Or that's something cool we can investigate, or whatever. So, I realized, wow, here's this expert naturalist who's not even using her expertise. I don't have any expertise, so I could do the same thing. Well, what do you think about that? So, the kids let us, we stopped when they stopped, we kept going when they kept going. We had plenty of water and snacks, which she had told me, which was important. And that was my first thing. It was a hike. And after that, I only went back to that place by myself with my kids without her, because that was the only trail I knew. I knew where to park and where to go, and I felt confident. And then lo and behold, I run into Charlotte Mason's work, where she talks about returning to the same place throughout the year, and having your kids compare what's happening their season to season. And so, different rationale for why I was doing that. But then I was like, look, there's beauty, even in the simplicity of me not knowing what else to do. So, that's kind of how we got into it. And then I started having more experience and going out and being more adventurous further away from home with my kids.   Laura Dugger: (24:14 - 24:24) Okay, so, then what other ways has it evolved? You mentioned whitewater rafting. So, you've got teens now. What does your time outdoors look like in this phase?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (24:25 - 26:02) So, lots of camping. So, you know, Memorial Day weekend, you know, we were camping in yurts with friends. This past weekend, we camped, we had a big Juneteenth celebration, and then we went camping for Juneteenth weekend. And so, I would say that kayaking, paddle boards, we have paddle boards, we take out fishing, I hate fishing personally, don't like it at all. But two of my kids enjoy fishing. So, I'm there for that. I'll just bring a book or whatever, because it's quite boring to me, but they love it. So, we moved. I mean, how much of a commitment is that we moved to a different house, when we were able to have our whole property is forest floor. So, it's completely shaded and intertwined with trees and plants and a kind of wild scape. And across the road is a lake where the boys can fish and I can call their names for lunch and they can hear me now. I have to yell it loud. It's kind of country. Other people probably like what is going on? I'm like, you know, but they can hear me right there. And so, the creek and just really everything. A lot, a lot of hiking, I will say we live near a mountain and we're in Georgia. So, the North Georgia mountains are not far from us. We have Appalachia or Appalachia, as my friend said, I mispronounce it. And yeah, there's nothing that isn't my one of my first dates with Scott was whitewater rafting. So, we've always kind of embraced that.   Laura Dugger: (26:03 - 26:37) Oh, that's a special way to tie in a married couple memory with your kids and get to pass that along. And water and mountains, those things are, they never get old. But I've heard others even say like, you don't have to take stuff other than water and snacks, like you mentioned, to go outside. But I like the practical tips that sometimes people take art supplies, and they can nature journal or a book to read aloud. Do you have any other practical tips like that, that you would encourage if somebody wanted to get started with this lifestyle?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (26:38 - 28:47) Yeah, I would say, um, we, okay, the best thing I can say is to just try it like I think that oftentimes I know my I'm like this, you want to try to be an expert at something before you actually put it into practice. And the point is, like, we're looking at someone's work or something that they're doing after years that they've been in practice. And then we're expecting to do that from the very beginning. And until we get there, we don't want to do it. So, for example, nature study, nature journaling, I always admired nature journaling. But when you look at people's nature journals that they people who are willing to share, there's usually a reason they're willing to share theirs because it looks beautiful. And mine didn't also look beautiful. But I was still willing to give it a try. And I love that. And I love my kids, what they've worked on. And I cherish all of our early beginning sketches. And quite honestly, I'm still not great. But I think having tools like watercolor pens and water pens where we can do watercolor on the go. And we've done many pictures out by the side of the creek on picnic blankets, especially like my older children while younger people are like, What do I do with these little ones like water, you know, like they love that splashing, making sandcastles and things while I'm painting or doing things watercolors with the with the older ones. And were they museum worthy? No. But there was a lot of enjoyment involved in a skill-based learning. So, I think asking questions and inquiry, using pictures, sure and painting, but also keeping track of things the the date that our cherry blossoms bloom, and our white cherry blossom blooms before the pink one every year and keeping track of that or paying trying to map all of the vegetation in our yard like we are, you know, know which trees what they're called where they come from that takes time. And those are things we've done. It's not like we're only just sitting there barefoot grounding ourselves and forest bathing. You know, we're out there learning as well. And I think that, you know, both are beautiful ways to enter into that.   Laura Dugger: (28:48 - 29:34) I love it. There's so many benefits. And you even mention grounding that helps so much going barefoot with inflammation and different body systems that are reset even by getting out and getting early morning light and the serotonin that's produced that turns into melatonin at night. So, we're happier in the day and sleepier at night, resetting systems in our eyes and like healing our body in different ways to an even how much better outdoor air is for us than indoor air. The benefits just go on and on. So, would you have any to add that either your family has experienced personally, or you've learned about just benefits of getting outdoors?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (29:34 - 31:29) Yeah, I think that one, even, you know, all the things you said, yes, and also the mental clarity. And that's why I don't like being time outdoors, being tied to a negative consequence for academic related behavior. So, the house across the road from ours, you know, I could say ironically, or just be like, God chose to gift us. It's a homeschooling family. They moved in a couple years ago, and they have some kids are some of our kids are similar ages. And our boys are just outside all the time together hours and hours and hours every single day. And I see the difference on days where the weather doesn't permit it or where one family or the other, you know, isn't available. There's a difference in terms of clarity and the work that's happening at the lesson table as well. And this came up, you know, my nephew, you know, they're not homeschooled, and his parents took him on a trip, which caused him to miss a day of school. And he missed an assignment that day, he didn't turn it in. And so, the school then when he got back to school punished him by keeping him indoors for recess. And I was helping, you know, my family craft a note that talks about two things. One, they punished a child for a decision the parents made. And that is grossly unfair, they should be talking to the parents about not missing school, if that's the important thing. And the second thing is, you took away the very thing that allows these children to have what they need to sit quietly and take in, you know, that that's not, that's not how you that's not an appropriate consequence. So, anyway, I feel that the mental clarity beyond the things I would have named the same things you already said, it would be the only other thing that I would bring in and why time outside actually helps us to achieve deeper and broader and more expansive learning when we are inside.   Laura Dugger: (31:29 - 31:54) That's good. And I love how you keep mentioning the piece of community that that's the best way to do this. So, regardless of somebody homeschools, or they don't, how can all of us actually prioritize this? And what's a good, healthy goal for getting started, even as specific as how much time outdoors, how many outdoors or how many days a week should we be outdoors?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (31:55 - 33:01) Yeah, that's, it's so different for every family, I think that you should go just past the point of comfort, you know, for most of us. So, if the point of comfort for you is like 30 minutes a week, then you would start out like aim for an hour a week, you know, 20 minutes, three days, if you're already outside for, you know, 10 hours, a couple hours each day, you know, I would say, maybe shake it up with what you're doing and see what would it be like to go on a really long outdoor excursion on a Saturday, or to take a day off or something like that. So, I don't want to say an exact number, because we're all entering in at a different place. For me, if someone had told me to spend eight hours outside with my kids, when I was first starting, and I'm used to going to playground for 20 minutes, that would have been overwhelming. And I would have been like; there's no way I'm ever gonna do it. So, I think like, just taking it, like, where do I feel most comfortable? And how can I push myself just past that point would be a great place to start and kind of a nice place to always stay? Like, what's the next thing that we can do to lean further into this?   Laura Dugger: (33:02 - 33:15) That's really good, very wise counsel. And Amber, you've mentioned that your family loves to travel. So, will you share any adventures that you've had as a family with world schooling?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (33:16 - 36:20) So, our goal, and it's just a fun thing, you know, I don't know if we'll totally do it, but I think we will, is to have children. So, for us, world schooling is where we're not on vacation, but we're actually deeply immersed in a learning stance in another country, another part of the world. And we're trying to do that on every continent, except Antarctica, before my oldest graduates. So, we have two continents left, we are going to be going to Asia in the fall. So, we'll be taking that one off of our list and for that particular feat. And then her senior year, we'll do Australia and hop over to New Zealand. That's the plan, if it's God's will for us to do that, that's what we would like to do, and that will complete our journey. And then we'll keep traveling, but that was just kind of a fun thing to help lead us, because there are so many places in the world to go, like how do you know? And so, that kind of helped us know, well, let's do this continent, let's do that continent. So, we took our first trip, we spent three months in South America, most of it spent in Bolivia. And I can tell you exactly the kids' ages, because my youngest turned two in Bolivia. So, they were two, four, six, and then one turned eight there. And so, that was, you know, diapers, I had a baby in diapers, a little one in diapers and still nursing when we went on our first trip. And I've never regretted that. People have said, why would you take kids so young? You know, they're not going to remember. And I think a couple thoughts. One, you'd be surprised, they do remember. They may not remember this artifact in some museum, but that's not what we spend most of our time doing. But they remember the people. And we've kept in touch with a lot of the people that we've met in these different countries. And we've even had visitors in our home, staying in our basement apartment that we met abroad. So, they do remember. They remember how things feel and taste more than they remember exactly, like historical markers and things like that. Also, I kind of compare it to like breastfeeding and nursing, like my kids, except for one little boy who held on way too long, but they don't remember that. But I believed that it was something good for them that was forming. It was helping to form who they were, not so much who they were personality wise, but their bodies as they were growing. And so, sometimes we do things that are foundational to our children's development, even if they don't have a conscious and direct memory of that thing. And that's how I see world travel. So, we've been to Europe, and we were in Greece when COVID hit. We were in the middle of a big trip there. So, we had the whole struggle to get back to the United States. We've been to West Africa, most spent in Ghana, England, France. We're going to Ethiopia this year. So, yeah, that's kind of, that's our thing.   Laura Dugger: (36:20 - 37:04) Wow. And those memories are incredible. Even let's say your children forget some of this, or if they're too young to remember all of it, you remember this and you get to share those stories with them and pass that along. I can't even imagine all of the learning that takes place from being immersed in those other cultures. But you also mentioned welcoming people into your basement apartment. So, you sound hospitable as a family. What does that actually look like? And I'm kind of going to throw two questions at you. What does that actually look like? And then both for world schooling and hospitality, what are tips for ways we can replicate that as well?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (37:06 - 39:52) So, one thing that's important to me to always share about world schooling, I have a whole chapter about our world schooling adventures in my first book, but one important thing that I call out there is Eli Gerzen. He's the guy who came up with the word world schooling. And he says, you know, we don't even need a passport to do it. That world schooling is really learning from the world around you. It could be your local library. It could be the internet. It could be your neighbors. And so, while I use this more global term of world schooling, because that's just what we call it in our family, the truth of the matter is it's a way of seeing the world and seeing all the opportunity to make connections right where you're sitting. And people are like, oh, you guys have so much money. I can't do that. First of all, we don't have so much money. Like, for instance, we have one car, right? So, there are sacrifices that we make that other people may choose to spend their money in a different way. So, we definitely don't have a ton of money. But more importantly, I'm thinking, yeah, you're saying that you don't have money, but how much have you explored your county? Like, what do you know about the history of your county? And have you been to your local historical society? And have you really, you know, got in? Have you been to an old the oldest cemetery within driving distance of your home? Have you gotten a tour of it to hear the stories of who's there? Like, you can have that same inquiry and curiosity without ever leaving. So, I'll say that first. And in terms of the hospitality part, it's like an it's an intention, right? You have to like, decide that you're going to do that, because it's so much easier not to have people at first view, like, oh, my house is not clean, and blah, blah, blah. And people don't just stop by the way they used to stop by, like my grandparents' house, it was so fun staying there in the summer, because people just folks just came in and out all day, just they come calling is what they call it, they come calling. And even when we read Jane Austin, people leaving the call guard, you know, when they came to visit, and you weren't there, like, there was this idea that you didn't have to have an appointment. And now you do, you have to let someone know before you're coming. So, it's a choice to be vulnerable, if you want to be hospitable in that way that people will see your, you know, dirty bones of your house. And you know that you're not always presenting this, like really sanitized version of your family and your family life. And so, I think that's intentional decision to say it's more important to us to be with other people and let them in than it is for us to always sanitize everything before they get here. And I don't mean sanitizes and clean the house that too, but I mean sanitizes and everyone's behaving the way that I want them to behave in front of people and all of that as well.   Laura Dugger: (39:53 - 41:05) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you? Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.   Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.   Well, and I think it is a biblical command for all of us and it does bless the person or the people that we are hosting, but there are also rewards for us in the process. So, if you even just could think of one reward of a way that this hospitality has blessed your family, what would you say?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (41:07 - 41:55) Well, I would say John chapter five, it says, you know, this verse we've all heard, "I am the vine, you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit apart from me, you can do nothing." So, you know, when we talk about hospitality, we spend a lot of time talking about what my family is doing for other people. But also, that means that my family is constantly in contact with other believers and other people who are helping us with our faith to helping us to remain connected to Jesus. And without that connection, we know that there's nothing that we can do, nothing of any spiritual significance. So, while I'm inviting those people into our lives, it also ensures that my family is not alone in what we're trying to do in our faith. So, like, that's one of a very easy benefit, I can say right off the top.   Laura Dugger: (41:56 - 42:18) Then that one is truly invaluable for our children to get to witness the way other people live out their faith, and it impacts each of us. But I'm also curious, how do you manage your time so that you can be a content creator, and you can homeschool and travel and cultivate these relationships?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (42:20 - 46:08) So, first, let me say that it's not always easy. And there are seasons where I feel like I'm doing a really good job with that. And there are seasons where I feel like I'm not doing a good job. I always prioritize my family first. And so, during the seasons where I feel like I'm not doing a good job, it's very public. People can see I did not post on Instagram for a month, or I'm not speaking as much. They're finding it harder to find opportunities to hear me speak, or I have a long lull before books are published. Those are times where I've turned inward towards my family, where I felt like I didn't have the bandwidth for everything. And so, that's something I have to deal with on a constant basis, because I know that my business or my ministry is not as rich and robust as it could be. I have ideas for days. I have ideas and the ability to bring them to fruition. But I'm not willing to sacrifice the time that it takes to do those things in this season. Because even though I don't have little kids, I definitely have more time than I did when I had little kids. It's not even just time; it's more mind clarity as well. But I don't have as much time as people with little kids would think, because I want to be fully present, even for my teens. When they want to talk to me, I want to be talkable too. I want to be available to them. And we're going to places. We're doing things. They're busy. I'm busy. And I'm trying to prepare them for young adulthood. And that's just as time-consuming as trying to prepare my young children for the next stage of their development. So, I guess it's so messy. Oh my gosh, it's messy. It's chaotic. It's a little bit crazy. But in the center of it all, I really appreciate the opportunities I do have to do the things that help refuel, help me refuel. So, I'm a writer. So, writing isn't just about creating a book. It's that I get to create a book, but really it's about the process and how cathartic it is for me to sit in silence and wonder about things and be able to write them out. And oh, lo and behold, there's a publisher who is interested in publishing those things. But the real work for me is in the process of writing. Then when I come home from a coffee shop or I emerge from my room, I come back more enthusiastic about what it is we're working on and what we're doing. The other thing that I would share is that I don't do all of that stuff by myself. So, things that people don't, just like I say, I have one car and we travel the world, people are like, oh, okay, this is not what I thought. My husband does all the laundry, every piece of laundry in this house that the teens do their own, but all the laundry that's done, he does and has done for over a decade. So, that's a thing I have to say, because you might be picturing that I'm doing all of those things. Or when I wrote one of my books, I was struggling and Scott was like, how can I help you? And he was like, what if we get help to come in with the kids like a nanny or something a few hours a week? I'm like, no, that's the last thing I want somebody to touch. So, he's like, well, what is it? So, we hired a chef, and she would prepare all of our dinners according to like what I, how I like my family to eat and lots of whole foods and good things. And she would drop them off at our house. It was very expensive, but I used part of the money from the advance from the publisher to pay for that so that I could write the book. So, I think those are things that a lot of times people don't talk about, but I have support in place. I'm not super woman any more than anyone else.   Laura Dugger: (46:08 - 46:49) Oh, I appreciate that real picture and those creative ideas because as mothers, we don't just make goals for ourselves. Like you said, we have these dreams and ideas that we could put into practice, but we consider our relationships as well and how it will impact everyone. So, I love hearing practically how that plays out for you and the trade-offs that you've chosen to make. And I know that you and I also share a passion for reading aloud. So, if we could get really practical for a moment, what are some of your most recommended read aloud for families from a variety of age groups?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (46:50 - 53:05) Well, I'm always ready for that question, but I have to say, it's almost asking me, which of my children are my favorite? It's so hard in so many ways, but for younger elementary, I picked three books that I think kind of help show how expansive I feel like I want my children's reading life to be. So, this book is called Indigo Dreaming, and it's a book about two girls, one's in North America and another one we can believe is off the coast of Africa. And they're both doing what they do in their own homes. And it's beautifully illustrated also, but they're both doing what they do in their own homes while wondering, is there another little girl in this world doing what I do, liking what I like? Well, indeed there is. And it's poetic and it has soft paintings. It's just stunning. And then another one is called The Magic Doll. It's a children's book inspired by African art. And in this book, the mother desperately wants to have a child, but she's dealing with infertility, and she turns to the use of an infertility doll. And what would I say about that? My family doesn't believe that, but it's a book that I read with my children because we were going to visit this culture. And I wanted to explain to them how we can respect something and learn about it even without adopting it. And that you can understand the yearning of a mother's heart to hold a child in her hand and the desperation that that could bring about. And I wanted them to know that we would see fertility dolls there and what they meant and things like that. And it's also beautifully illustrated, which is important to me. And then this one's just a fun book. It's called I Had a Favorite Dress, but as the dress starts getting too small, she cuts it and turns it into a skirt. And then it gets turned into this. And then the little, small piece gets turned into some socks. And then it's just a little scarf and snip, snip, sew, sew, pretty hair bow. And so, the same piece of fabric, this favorite dress she had, every time she can't use it in that way anymore, it gets moved and shifted. Into something else. And this book reminds me to just, you know, sometimes we share heavier topics with our children, even beautiful topics, but sometimes it's just joy. Like that's the whole purpose of the book is to smile and have fun. And I'll move more quickly for the older elementary books. I have this book called Schomburg. It's a nonfiction book about Arturo Schomburg and the man who built a library, which is now housed. His home library is now housed as part of the collection of the public library system in New York. And he collected books about all types of black and brown people. And it was considered one of the foremost library collections. So, as a book lover, I love that story. This one's called Heart and Soul. It's the story of America and African Americans with stunning illustrations by Kadir Nelson. So, I love visual art. I always say my family, we can't afford to buy the most exquisite art for our walls, but we have an exquisite art collection through our picture books that I've collected. And then the last one is for that group is John Henry by Julius Lester and Jerry Pinkney illustrations. So, those are two powerhouses of African American author and illustrator. Both have passed. And it is the tall tale of John Henry told in a way that you've never seen before. For older kids, like middle schoolers, I love this one Big Open Sky because it's about some black exodusters who are moving west. And it goes so well for families who love Little House on the Prairie. But, you know, Little House on the Prairie, in some ways, there's some instances that are a little disrespectful to Native Americans and black people. And this is like a redemptive story, not instead of but alongside of it to say that there were black people that were also moving westward and what was their journey. And it's written in verse, like, oh, my gosh, I can't even tell you enough about that. This book, The Angel Orphan, my friend Leah Bowden wrote this book, and it's the story of Charlotte Mason. So, in chapter book form. So, there's also a picture book that someone wrote, but this is a beautiful story about Charlotte Mason. And my family's all-time favorite on my kids read aloud is The Winged Feather Saga by Andrew Peterson. And that whole series, oh, my goodness, that cemented so much of our family lexicon, because it's filled with like made up words. And it I mean, we have jokes and talks and sayings for days coming out of that series. For our older teenagers, um, or even early elementary, early middle school and early teenage years, the Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry is just like a such a classic, Mildred D. Taylor that many of us read. But she also wrote a young adult version where Cassie is entering young adulthood. So, different age audiences, but same author. And a lot of people haven't heard of the other book All the Days Past, All the Days to Come. So, for high school, I love that. And then I threw a couple things in for mama. I'm an epic story of called Homegoing about two sisters and the different paths their lives take during a time I'm part of it is told in Africa and part of its told in the United States. And the last book I have is this memoir, A Black Mother's Garden. It's called Soil. And she uses her actual real garden at her home to kind of give us this idea of life. And it's, it's, you know, it's, it's hard to explain, but it's her it's part memoir, part gardening, like learning and talking about the plants, but also how all of that can turn into kind of like the soil of your life and the people being plants, and she really focuses on wildflowers. So, it's a stunningly, like poignant and beautiful memoir. So, those are my favorite, you know, and now if you ask me tomorrow, you're going to get a different stack.   Laura Dugger: (53:07 - 53:27) I love it. What a gift to get to see all of those you and I share some of those favorites, and you've introduced me to some new ones. So, I'm very grateful and hope everybody listening feels the same. But speaking of books, you've authored more than one. But will you tell us about your most recent release entitled Soul School?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (53:28 - 55:58) Yeah, so, Soul School is it's Soul School: Taking Kids on a Joy Filled Journey Through the Heart of Black American Culture. And I know it's so hard with those. But it is a book of books. So, people who have enjoyed Honey for a Child's Heart, or The Read-Aloud Family, those types of books, which I have adored, and I have all of them, and I've highlighted them or, or Give Your Child the World is another one, highlighted them and dog eared them and have used them to check out books for the library for my children for many, many years. And, and at the same time, I was always very, you know, on my heart that the books that I spend a lot of time reading with my children that I choose and I select are never really included in most of those books.   And there was the season, you know, I'm like, frustrated, you know, I'm mad. I'm like, why? Why are they putting these books in here? And then the more I thought about it, I was like, the most you can ask for a mother to do when she's sharing these books, when it's coming from that is what she read with her children. So, am I going to be mad at her that she didn't read what I think she should read? No, do I wish that it had been more expansive? Sure, I do. But how many of us wouldn't go back and do something differently if knowing what we know today or whatever. So, I wrote a companion like the I see not to replace those books. But this book is filled with African American and black diasporic children's literature starting from preschool all the way through high school.   The first part of the book, I talk about what I'm looking for specifically in books about black American culture, and why those things are important. So, the first few chapters, first five chapters are really teaching the teacher. And then the rest of the book, which makes up most of the book are really rich annotated book lists with descriptions why I chose the book discussion questions, project ideas, and something called second helpings. Like when you think of a big soul food dinner, you go through the line the first time and you fill your plate, but then you go back for second helpings of the things that taste the very best. So, if your child likes this book, then here are two second helpings that they also would probably enjoy. And you know, the book was years in the making, I read all 300 plus books in there from cover to cover. And that's kind of my contribution to raising our children.   Laura Dugger: (56:00 - 56:40) Wow, I mean, it is a stunning piece of work. And there's so much for your family, but also for all of us. So, I think of being one of your kids, what a treasure that their mom read 300 books and put this together. But for all of us, I love books on books. And like you said, we can use it to go to the library or then once we read those and find which other ones we love, we can add it to our home collection. So, thank you for that powerhouse of work. And Amber, there's still so much more that you could share with us. Where can we go after this conversation to connect with you or to learn more?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (56:42 - 56:56) Go to heritagemom.com. And there you'll find all of my books and years' worth of blog posts and book recommendations and other things. My Instagram is @heritagemomblog and the same at Facebook.   Laura Dugger: (56:56 - 57:12) Wonderful. Okay, we will add those links to the show notes for today's episode. And you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, Amber, what is your savvy sauce?   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (57:12 - 57:50) Oh, this is such a great question. I love this part of your podcast. I would say that my savvy sauce is learning to be a really great listener. Like if there's nothing else, then that's listening to my husband and the things of his heart and listening to my children and my neighbors and my friends.   But also, people I don't know, people in other places. And also, people I disagree with and being willing to be quiet and listen and take what I can from what they're sharing as well. So, that is, I think my savvy sauce is being an introspective listener.   Laura Dugger: (57:50 – 58:13) That is well said. You are such an inspiring and creative soul. And I have thoroughly enjoyed this chat. And I know I've been hearing you speak on other podcasts and reading your work for years. So, this was such a treat to get to connect with you today. And I just want to say thank you for being my guest.   Amber O'Neal Johnston: (58:14 - 58:16) Thank you so much for having me.   Laura Dugger: (58:16 - 1:01:59) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.   But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.   This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.   So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a Savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.   This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.   Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.   I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.   You get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started?   First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible.   The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ.   We also have show notes including where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.   Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

272. Pathway to Joy and Happiness in Parenting with Amy Rienow   Psalm 144:15b NKJV, "Happy are the people whose God is the Lord!"   *Transcription Below*   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you share your story of God revealing a spirit of perfectionism was sneaking into motherhood? How can we recognize our own spirit of perfectionism and what can we do about it? What is one thing you've found every mom needs more of and how can we get it?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: MidwestFoodBank.org   Amy Rienow's first ministry is loving her husband and nurturing faith in their seven children. She and Rob founded and lead Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry created to equip parents, encourage couples, and help families live for Christ. She attended the University of Illinois, followed by Wheaton College Graduate School, where she earned her MA in Clinical Psychology. She is a licensed clinical professional counselor. Amy has her hands full as a mom, partnering with Rob, and serving in the women's and worship ministries at church.   Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned in Episode: Special Patreon Re-Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow Five Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman 87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow 182 Things I Wish I'd Have Known Before My Child Became a Teenager with Dr. Gary Chapman 220 Cultivating Healthy Family Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman 245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow 230 Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website    Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:43) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness.  Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.   I'm thrilled to get to introduce you to my inspiring guest for today, Amy Rienow. Now, that last name may sound familiar because Amy's husband, Dr. Rob Rienow, has been a previous guest multiple times, actually. So, I'll make sure and link his previous episodes in the show notes, along with other episodes that we recommend in this conversation.   Amy and Rob are founders of Visionary Family Ministries, and they are parents to seven children. Amy is also an author, podcaster, and she's practiced as a licensed clinical professional counselor in the past, so she's going to combine all of this experience together, and her wisdom just pours out as now she's going to seek to encourage us to seek the Lord and follow His guidance, especially as parents in our parenting journey. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Amy.   Amy Rienow: (1:44 - 1:51) Hi Laura. I'm so glad to do this with you. It's been a while since we've talked about it, and I'm excited to be here today.   Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 2:00) Well, I'm thrilled to have you join, and I'd love to just dive in and hear how did Jesus Christ become your personal Lord and Savior?   Amy Rienow: (2:01 - 3:39)  I love that you start with that question. I grew up in a home with a Christian mom and a non-Christian dad, but they had made an arrangement before they were even married. She did have the wisdom to ask her husband to give her the domain of that, like picking a church, and he was willing to go with us as a family to church, even though he was not a believer, and that was very clear.   But she led me to the Lord when I was about four years old, and I grew up going to church, and that was my first. I feel like I never kind of have a lot of memory of not knowing Jesus, but I would say that my faith increased and became even more my own. I feel like it was always my own, but in high school, I went on a missions trip to Mexico, and I will never forget the experience of being in a very poor town in Mexico, and there was this horrible storm coming in, and all of us Americans were afraid of the storm, and we ran into the church while the service kept going on, and literally none of the Mexican people that were outside in the service, the storm didn't faze them at all.   They just kept going on, and honestly, that was such a pivotal point in my life where I was like, that is the type of faith that I wanted to have. I mean, it really cemented. I feel like that's when the Holy Spirit just helped me to know that that's who I want to be.   I want to be a person of that kind of faith in the Lord that is not budging when the storms come.   Laura Dugger: (3:40 - 4:04) Love that. Thank you for sharing, and since that time, you've added some people to your family, so I'd love to get a snapshot of your family right now and then share some more about motherhood, specifically in one of your books you wrote about recognizing that you had a spirit of perfectionism. So, I'd love to hear more about that because I think it's very relatable.   Amy Rienow: (4:05 - 6:43) Well, my family right now, I've been married to my husband Rob for 30 years. I have seven children, R.W., Lissy, J.D., Lainey, Millie, Ray, and Rush.  And R.W. is turning 28 this year. He has one little boy.   His name is Cliff, so that's my grandbaby number three. My daughter Lissy is married to Bond, and she's about to have baby number three, so that will be my fourth grandbaby. She has Avey, Bondy, and then this little new one on the way. And then my son J.D. just got married to Brooke last summer, so that is exciting. We're thrilled, thrilled, thrilled to have Brooke in our family. Lainey is graduating from Olivet. She graduated in three years, which we're really proud of. Millie is a junior.   Ray is a freshman, and Rush is in fifth grade, and I still homeschool those three. They kind of do part-time at a Christian school here, and then I homeschool the rest of the time. So, that is my current family.   It's expanding. As you will find out when you get to the stage, expansions come very quickly, and it's exciting, exciting times. But about that spirit of perfectionism, actually, even before I became a mom, I was convicted of a spirit of perfectionism because I had always been very critical of myself.   I had a very critical spirit. Just I don't know if it was, you know, the peer pressure, what those components are. I'm a middle child, but I just tended to critique myself very harshly.   And after I was married, even about a year, the Lord showed me how, because of my husband and I were becoming one flesh, I was really turning that critical spirit onto him. But then there was a book called The Fly Lady. She is a home organization.   I think I mention it in my book, but that is when I really began to understand that I struggled with perfectionism, and that's often what kept me paralyzed. It often keep me with that, you know, I would say engaging with that critical spirit, communicating a lot of criticisms, whether it be to my children or to my husband. So, that was, you know, so it started early in marriage, but by the time I was well into motherhood, I was really starting to understand what this was. What the critical spirit was, and it really was a spirit of perfectionism.   Laura Dugger: (6:44 - 6:52) Well, and the Lord met you there, and there is a story that you share related to picture frames. Would you be willing to tell that?   Amy Rienow: (6:52 - 9:07) Yeah. So, my daughter, Lissy, was graduating from high school, and it was classic me. I was trying to like get this massive graduation party together, and I'm sort of a procrastinator and life is busy.   So, it's like we are, okay, I got to get this done before this big party, this big event, and had a friend who was a decorator to kind of give me an idea of what to do. And so, my husband and really the whole family was kind of working overtime to get everything ready for this big event. And he had helped my, we had this huge wall that had to be that my decorator friend suggested a gallery wall.   So, we had all of these pictures up and I was looking at it late at night, kind of exhausted. We're talking about past midnight and I know it wasn't just my husband helping. I had JD helping.   I don't remember where I was, but we were just all working hard to get this ready for this party. And I was laying there as past midnight looking at that wall and so frustrated, like so frustrated because all those pictures I kept looking at like, Oh, this is going to be a mess. Like they're all, they're not like, you know, they're not command stripped.   Right. And so they're all going to be, I just felt like, what have I done? It's looking crooked already.   And it was so frustrating to me. And that is when the Holy spirit completely convicted me with just like, Amy, you should be looking what's in those pictures and not whether they're crooked or not crooked. Like, first of all, like all the family has been helping me with this vision.   Right. And it's not really their vision. It's my vision.   They've all been supportive of me in front of me. It was a wall of all the memories of all these beautiful pictures. And here I was so focused on my right angles and having it look perfect for the crowd coming in at the graduation party, as opposed to what everything on that wall represented.   And so, it was a very convicting moment to me of just like, I have a choice. Am I going to embrace everything in those pictures and everything my family's done to help us get to this special day? Or am I going to come in and be fixated on how crooked those picture frames look to me right now?   Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:19)  Appreciate you sharing that. And I'm wondering for any parent, especially listening, if they find themselves identifying with that spirit of perfectionism, what can we do with that?   Amy Rienow: (9:20 - 11:11)  It's a challenging one because I think our culture promotes it. And I also think I'm on the flip side of the positive side of it. Let me just say, I believe there's a vision of perfect in our hearts because we were created for perfect.   We're created for heaven. And the Bible says that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, or no mind has even conceived what God has prepared for those who love him. So, there's this drive for perfect that I think is very good and right.   And so, we don't want to give up like excellence, or we don't want to give up that we have that drive. The problem is that the enemy, in fact, I've actually done more research on this. There's really can be a demonic spirit of perfectionism where we're trying to create heaven here.   We're trying to think in our own flesh and our own strength that we can take care of all of our sin, take care of all of our flaws. We can take care of our children's flaws. We can take care of our husband's flaws.   That is actually from the enemy in the sense that we believe in our own strength. And you can look at that through history. It's basically a form of humanism that we can fix everything in ourselves.   God makes it very clear in scripture that that is not possible. So, I think understanding this tension, that it's okay to want things to be wonderful, that's not bad. But what's bad is when we leave God out of the picture and we put this pressure on ourselves and on the people around us to accomplish what only can God can do.   And we don't accept God's timing. We don't have patience with who we are, our sinful nature and really put our trust in Christ and not in ourselves.   Laura Dugger: (11:12 - 12:56) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.   Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.   Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.   Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year. And thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need.   The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit midwestfoodbank.org, or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.   You also write in one of your books that there's one thing that you found every mother needs. So, what is it and how can we get it?   Amy Rienow: (12:56 - 14:56) That one thing is joy, joy, joy. And, and I like to use the word happiness, honestly, because I feel like that happiness got a bad rap, I say, in Christian world for like a while, in my opinion. I don't know if it's still that way, but so often I heard sermon saying, you know, like we don't want happiness.   We want joy. Like there's these two different major things, like, you know, almost like a rejection of happiness for this deeper spiritual joy. Well, finally, the Lord really convicted me that deep, deep inner joy that doesn't show is an oxymoron.   Like, you really should see happiness. You should feel happiness. You should feel those things.   If you ever come across someone's like, oh no, I have a deep joy, but like, there's no evidence of it. Well, that's a red flag. That's a problem.   The Lord, you know, in the King James version, it actually says happier people whose God is the Lord. And I believe every mom desires that happiness. And sometimes they don't even really know that that's the most important element that they want in their home, you know, because it's so easy to get, I don't know, sidetracked on things that feel more important that you kind of forget how important happiness is.   And, you know, we can take it for granted. I feel like very easily because often when our kids are little and we don't have not entered that world of, whether it be academic or whatever into the greater world, let's just say in your home, you can kind of have like a natural happiness and joy that's just there, but it's so easily stifled. When we start putting our self into the world of either comparing ourselves to other moms, comparing our kids to other kids, stressing about the expectations or what we think our kids need.   We can often find that happiness slipping away. And I believe we do not want that to happen in our homes and in our hearts.   Laura Dugger: (14:57 - 15:08) And so how can we get more of that, both as parents and how can we train our kids to be happy and joyful as well?   Amy Rienow: (15:09 - 17:18) It's such a good question and a hard question. Cause I don't think it's just like we can snap our fingers and just do that. I think that it's really important that we are seeking the Lord and helping him order our priorities.   You know, God gave us 10 commandments for a reason. And if you look at the first one, it says, “You know, you'll have no other gods before me, you'll keep him first.” And part of the reason why I think that commandment is both like the first and also in many ways, very abstract, like, you know what I mean?   How do you even do that? You know, it's confusing, I think, but I think that's what the Lord wants is of a seeking of helping us keep him first. Because when we help to keep God first, number one, and number two, we don't have idols that we bow down to, that we place above him. Like, let's take an example of motherhood.   Let's say the idol might be, um, I have to have super smart children. Let's put it that way. You know, your joy is going to be robbed when you keep sacrificing to that idol, because that's a trap.   Like the enemy wants to trap you there to make the wrong sacrifices. And that is why I think God knows this. Like he's telling us right in those 10 commandments, you know, you need to keep me first.   You can have no, do not worship to idols. Because when you're making the sacrifices to eternal God, who is the author of joy, the author of love, the author of peace, those are the things he gives back to you. No other idol can give you peace.   No other idol can give you joy. So, I think when we look at the lack of joy that we see in a lot of our homes in our culture, it's because we've been ensnared into an idolatry where we're making the wrong sacrifices. We're sacrificing things that we don't realize the consequence of that until we're in it.   And we're like, wait, this didn't produce the happiness and joy that I expected it to produce. Cause we were tricked.   Laura Dugger: (17:19 - 17:27) Do you have any examples from your own life or friend's stories where that really comes to life?   Amy Rienow: (17:27 - 21:22) Oh boy. There's lots of examples and lots of friends stories, but I'm going to say one that's more of a story that I'm well aware of and not, you know, personally walk hand with. But I think it's always struck with me because it was so painful story. You know, I grew up, I've raised a lot of athletes in my home and my son, especially my first born very athletic boy.   And we were kind of at the beginning of the cusp of how important travel was, you know what I mean? Travel baseball and travel, you know, sports in general. And there's that pressure.   You need to choose this. You need to do this or else you are going to, you know, ruin the advantages for your child. If you don't do this, even if choosing that is going to mean you're going to sacrifice family time, you're going to sacrifice finances.   You are going to sacrifice your Sundays. I could go on and on. The world will tell you you have to do this in order to get to the prize that you're looking for, or your son is going to be disadvantaged.   If you don't choose that. And it took a lot to be like, no, we're not going to make, we're not going to make that trade. And there was a lot of pressure.   There's a lot of pressure with our son, you know what I mean? With him feeling sometimes neglected and having to deal in that relationship. So, it's not like that's immediate happiness or immediate joy, you know, but what did it did allow us to disciple him through all that.   It allowed us to see God, you know, use him, whatever team he was on, give him a lot of joy in sports. The blessing of it is that we saw him in high school, you know, excel in baseball, always rise to the top, win character awards. He eventually did go on to play college baseball and AIA, not like D1, but he got to play, got to use that gift to pay for his education.   But most importantly, he was a joyful, happy kid. Baseball didn't control his life. And I just praise God for that.   And in contrast, he, at the same, his age, same age level, there were these two boys who were twins were very well known for being top, top, top, top players. And they were just elevated in many circles we were in. And, you know, you, when you're in the baseball world, baseball moms will understand this, you know who the top players are.   You see the name, like, you know, when your son's in the paper for something, you know, he was listed in the number of top of DuPage kids. And obviously that's a feather in your cap and you're really proud of that. These boys were top of the top D1, but I'll never forget.   They went to different D1 schools and one of them ended up taking his own life his freshman year. I believe it just the most devastating thing. I could not, I cannot speak to any of those situations.   I don't know his family background. I do not know any history of at all. All I can say is it hit me really hard in the sense that these were the boys that so many parents were envying, envying of their success and of their status.   And that was so jolting to, to know that they'd received, you know, hit so many of these incredible hurdles that every parent thinks they want their kids to achieve. But obviously there was something amiss because there was a lack of joy, lack of happiness. I don't know the whole story.   But that just strikes me again of just how important it is to again, go back to keeping God first, make sure you're making the right sacrifices.   Laura Dugger: (21:23 - 22:43) That's a good word. It's such a sobering story, but making sure we're making the right sacrifices or really listening to God's counsel. That reminds me where I was this morning, Psalm 25.   I read it in the amplified version, but it was talking specifically that some of his guidance comes from his word. Like it's amazing. It's incredible.   It's important to pray and to be around others who are godly and do other spiritual rhythms, but there's nothing like reading his word to hear from him. And let me try and find the verses. Verse 14 in the amplified version says, “The secret of the wise counsel of the Lord is for those who fear him and he will let them know his covenant and reveal to them through his word, it's deep inner meaning.”   And the next verse, just the first part goes on to say, “My eyes are continually toward the Lord.” And that was such powerful takeaway this morning, but then I'm hearing it through the way that these lives played out. Because when you look, is it my understanding correct?   That you did travel sports, but they were not, your children chose not to do Sundays.   Amy Rienow: (22:44 - 25:52) Well, we did not even do travel sports for my oldest. It was back in the day when park district actually, you could, you know, like there were enough kids. So, we, my son did only park district all the way through eighth grade, but then he kind of, because he was like young for his age, he had one sort of gap year in between high school before he started like high school sports.   And that's when he did play a travel sport. We found one that honestly was not good at all. I don't think the level was any better than park district, but they accepted the no Sunday situation.   So, that's what we did. And you know, it was a losing team. Like he was on losing teams, like most of his baseball career until he got to high school.   So, it really was you know, the opposite of what the world said he needed. And yet he was able to, to rise and, and achieve. And honestly his high school experience was being able to always, he was a starter all the time and he his teams won.   So, it was like years of like, not, you know, kind of paying these prices I would say. And that's neither here or there. The winning or the losing is really not important.   The important was keeping baseball in its proper place, enjoying the gifts that God has given you, not letting, listening to the world. I'll just throw this in because we are what you said about sound. First of all, I love the amplified version.   So, that blessed me that you read the amplified, but you know, seeking the council, you, we must be as parents in his word, like regularly listening to how he's speaking to us because we also, it's so interesting. Rob and I live in a very interesting world. We had one foot, especially back then, one foot in the homeschool world, one foot in the public school area, public school community, lots of public school friends.   And then also the Christian school is where my son played. But you know, if we'd go to homeschool conference, there were tons of messages that you should not have your kids in sports at all. Sports are wrong.   Sports are a waste of time, you know? So, that was a strong message of sort of like condemnation almost for being in sports at all. So, my point is there was no one community that said, okay, this is the way, you know what I mean?   We had to seek the Lord, you know, for ourselves, for our family, for our son, knowing this was his love and his giftedness and continue to look for wisdom and how he should grow in those gifts. You know, and how he wanted to use it in his life, but not let it take over his life. And isn't that the lesson for all of us?   So, anyway, it depended on that seeking the counsel of him, both myself with my husband and then also with our W. It wasn't like we kept him out of the picture. We were praying the three of us for wisdom and all those things.   Laura Dugger: (25:53 - 26:42) I love hearing that because you're right. It's not about black and white decision of travel sports are always wrong or always right. But the main takeaway is seek the Lord because he has wisdom for our individual unique situation.   And I want to go back and close a few other loops. Sure. Please.   One of those being that even with perfectionism or with comparison or when we're choosing godly values that may contradict worldly values, I'm hearing a theme that there's a, it's a fight and that there's a spiritual battle. And you even said you had researched some of this, Amy, how do you personally learn about that and be aware of the spiritual realm?   Amy Rienow: (26:44 - 30:42) We, we really, I can't say it enough that we do need to be so aware of the spiritual realm. I didn't understand. I didn't understand in my early years of parenting at how important that was to pay attention to.   And here's the thing there's, I feel like there's the Lord brings us on a path along the way with the knowledge we need at the time. And then he wants us to stretch and grow and learn a little bit more. So, there was a season in my life.   When especially we began homeschooling, the Lord brought us into all these new teachings that we didn't really understand was so powerful. It was so wonderful. We were very blessed by all of those teaching and the conferences that we were attending.   But what began to happen for me is that the perfectionism that I knew was there kind of gotten folded into that teaching because all of a sudden I kind of wore as a spiritual, like pride that I, I called it my noble list. Now I, when I talk about my book, Not So Perfect Mom, I, this is not in the book, but this is part of my talks. Like I kind of replaced the world's list of great athlete, great, you know, so smart, all those things with my noble list.   My child will have wonderful character. My child will read God's word. My child will know what it means to serve, but you see what I mean?   We're still dealing with a list. God had to call me out of that way of thinking back to the importance of a relationship with him, meaning for myself and meaning for my kids. Because when my oldest was 12, I was starting to see that we could be raising a Pharisee. If we keep focusing on this noble list, like if he knows all of his Proverbs, if he obeys perfectly, if he, you know what I mean?   Like life is not supposed to be, God never called us to do that. He desires a daily relationship with us. And that's what he desires for our kids.   So, that was beginning to suffocate my oldest for sure. And my, I would say, and my daughter right underneath him because they felt the weight of this, you know, we need to arise to this, this standard. So, like that perfectionism can take on this, this type of robe that makes you feel very noble about it.   Especially if you're in certain circles, like spiritual circles, where if your kids look right, dress right. You know, say yes, ma'am and yes, sir. Then we're all assuming that they're wonderful and we're not really getting to the heart underneath, but that is, there's a tension and a spiritual battle.   That's far. That's super important to pay attention to. And the way the Lord showed that to me is that I would often say the phrase in conversation.   Oh, it's a battle. Oh, it's a battle. We're in a battle.   I'm the Lord. I don't know what they gave me a vision. That's too strong word, but I had this sort of, I, I guess it's a vision.   I imagine that I was on, I was sitting in a coffee, like at a table with a friend drinking coffee. And we were just, you know, chatting and yet that coffee table was in the middle of this bloody battlefield. And the Lord was just kind of showing me, this is how your attitude is about saying that it's in a battle.   Like you're sitting here, just talking with your friends, drinking coffee and chatting and laughing. And this is the battlefield. It's all around you.   What are you doing about the battle? You know, when you are following after the Lord, you need to expect opposition. You need to understand that your kids are under spiritual attack.   And if we're not praying and putting on that full armor of God and recognizing it, we're not engaged in it.   Laura Dugger: (30:42 - 31:41) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?   Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials? Anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love. If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world.   So, we need your help. Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us.   Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.   When you go back to your family of origin, did your father ever find a saving faith in Jesus Christ as well?   Amy Rienow: (31:41 - 33:11) He did. He did actually. That's such a wonderful question. And he did when my husband and I were married for about a year. And he, at Christmas day in front of our whole family, after we were sitting at the table at dinner, he kind of waited for all the gifts to be open and be at a different spot.   And he said, “Well, I opened one more gift today and it was the gift of salvation.” Wow. I still tear up thinking about it and thinking about my older brother's response, who was not an emotional person.   And I saw tears in my older brother's eyes, but I just want to even in saying that, that taught me a lot because even at the time when he accepted salvation, he even said, I don't necessarily believe all the Bible's true. He really, you know, he accepted in faith and now he doesn't, you know, the Lord took him from evolutions. Now he's probably more conservative or believes the Bible in a way that I would say many other Christians maybe wouldn't believe, but I'm saying that it was a process watching him grow.   And my kids don't even understand that, that we call him Bop Bop. He used to be a man who, you know, let the communion plate pass every week. And he was not a believer because they see him so much as a spiritual leader now, but you see how faith moves and how faith changes us.   And we need to be patient with God in ourselves, with our kids, you know, and trust in that walk with Him. Love it.   Laura Dugger: (33:12 - 33:23) Well, I'm going to change gears here a little bit. Yeah. Will you explain attachment and share why you're so passionate about this topic?   Amy Rienow: (33:24 - 37:18) That is, I do feel like I love talking about attachment. I feel like it's an underrated thing to talk about. Some of you might be familiar.   I don't know if any of these names like Mary Ainsworth or the Harlow experience, you remember the monkey Harlow experience. It's most, most kids who've had like even a high school psychology class, know that the story of the monkey who has the wire surrogate mom with the bottle. And then has like the fuzzy mom that doesn't have the bottle and the monkey goes and gets its food from the bottle of the wire mom but continues to go over to the furry surrogate mom for comfort.   That's some of the original psychology on attachment but I was started my professional job in a school with children with behavior disorders and autism. That's one of my first jobs. And, and because of that, I went to different seminars for continuing education.   And one of them was a woman who specialized in attachment. And part of the reason she specialized in attachment because she'd adopted so many children and she was sort of a professional on adoption. And that's when I really did a deeper dive into attachment and specifically something called reactive attachment disorder.   I can't go into that. It would be a long tangent. But she was such an eye-opening time.   And this is even before I had children. But she said that, you know, she couldn't say everything she wanted to about attachment and the effects specifically of daycare on children, because it wasn't politically correct. That she would lose her funding basically, if she gave her true opinion on some of the things that our culture was doing to destroy attachment among families.   And it was just very eye opening to me that, you know, when we get our baby development books, the time that I was having kids, it was What to Expect When You're Expecting and What to Expect for Your One Year Old and all these milestones that moms are looking for. And obviously moms generally love their kids. I will stand by that over and over, you know what I mean?   That's the norm. And, you know, you're told to look for all of these milestones, but really attachment is not even mentioned in this book of how important it is. What are the signs of a securely attached child?   And yet this is so significant. And it's not just in the Christian world that we can recognize this. This is universally known in the psychology world, how important attachment is.   So, let's go back to that spiritual battle. Why is it that that is not discussed? Or why is that not focused in the development book?   Or why is it that if you're going to adopt a child, you're going to learn all about attachment, but that's not something that you may necessarily come into contact with if you're just having your own children. But attachment is essential for all healthy relationships. And specifically attachment with the mother.   I mean, we can use the term primary caregiver. Yes, to other people come in and be a primary care. I'm not saying that, you know. It's not just the mom, but this relationship with the mom, this, this attachment is so significant because God created it that way.   And it, how that relationship and how that attachment happens will have this impact on all the other relationships that your child is going to have in their life. So, it's something that we need to be talking about. And I pray that it becomes more and more common for people to talk about it.   Laura Dugger: (37:18 - 37:25) Well, and I'm even curious that speaker was that Karen Purvis?   Amy Rienow: (37:25 - 38:04) Oh, I don't even remember her name. I apologize. She was not a Christian. She was not a believer.   She, well, if she was, I don't know that. Cause I was, I was listening to her in a secular setting. You know, so she might've been, I don't, so I don't know, but I, the reason why it was so curious to me that the time most of the children on my case list that I had at this school were adopted.   So, I found that so interesting, like, and that was why I went to her seminar to try to understand more that connection of the adoption. And you know, how did that play into some of the problems that these children were, were having.   Laura Dugger: (38:05 - 38:20) Well, and just to go a little bit further with attachment, let's take it from the positive side. What are some proven examples or ways that we can form that healthy attachment with our children and that bonding?   Amy Rienow: (38:21 - 40:38) Yeah, well, a lot of it is just a spending time with your child, you know, and that's why I want to be very gentle here. Cause the world that we live in, I mean, I know for a fact that there are so many moms in situations where they have to go back to work right away. There are difficult circumstances.   And I'm, I am not here to say that then you don't have an attached relationship with child. Cause that is honestly not true. But I will say that if you have any opportunity to be home with your children, please, please, please take that opportunity because your children need that contact with you to form that attachment.   I mean, the number one thing for attachment is presence, time, touch, eye contact, and smiles. I mean, like it is what the baby that interplay that's happening with the baby and the mother and, and the why babies love faces. I mean, like they, we need to have that time with our children.   We need to be the ones to know our children the best that only comes with time. But even a mom who maybe for reasons have to be away from their baby, the important thing is that when you're with them, that you are engaged. You know, I even, I don't have my phone in front of me.   Even the phone takes away attachment. You know, when you're looking at another screen, as opposed to paying attention to that communication with the baby long before they're communicating long for the communicating with words, they are interacting and communicating with you. So, God knew what he's doing when he created mothers with the ability to feed their babies.   Nursing enables attachment, you know, because the baby is dependent on the mother. So, all of these things play into why God created our system the way it is because it was designed not to just physically feed our babies, but to emotionally create this attached, secured relationship where that enables a child to feel safe, feel security.   Laura Dugger: (40:39 - 40:54) Well, that makes me think of another a word that you wisely encourage us. And that is the word affection. So, can you share why this is also important to shower on our children?   Amy Rienow: (40:55 - 43:47) Yes. You know how it is when you become a mom, there's all these new parenting styles out there, things that you get bombarded with, or should I do this? Or, you know, and I think I was really impacted by a Bible, small group where a woman was talking about her six-month-old needing disciplining her six-month-old.   And it hit me really negatively because I just heard a woman who had had like, I think she has 17 children who talked about, you know, there's, you cannot spoil and she used, you cannot spoil anybody under the age of two. I would say it's as much as under three with as far as attention and love and affection, affection, your children need your affection. Again, let's go to how this, how Satan, let's go back to that spiritual battle.   We can keep going back. Cause I often find you can see God's truth with how it's perverted in the world. So, let's look at how we have a sex education system now in so many schools, including in Illinois that tries to teach younger children horrific adult sexual behaviors, correct?   And they are manipulating what needs to, what children do need, which is positive, a non-sexual physical connection with their parents, with their siblings, with aunts and uncles. So, so in some ways I can remember early in my career and either in my development in getting my classes, my masters, you know, in some ways they demonize, you know, like parents are afraid to sometimes have too much physical touch or too much of this because it's almost like, Oh, we can't, you know, we have to make sure our children are more independent, you know, like, like for example, co-sleeping, which builds a lot of affection between parents, which is normal in most cultures and normal throughout history can be viewed as really negative. Like, you know, you gotta get your kid in another room and another, like pushing them out early and yet look at what we see from the world, which is an encroachment of inappropriate touch, inappropriate sexuality at younger and younger ages.   And obviously kids who don't have positive, strong, physical affection are more inclined to fall for Satan's counterfeit. And desire and need touch, but they, they, it's been twisted from the world's perspective.   Laura Dugger: (43:47 - 44:17) Does that make sense? Are you tracking with that? I am.   And it's even making me think of a previous guest, Dr. Gary Chapman, talking about mostly the five love languages of in marriage and how those are displayed. But we also discussed with children and the parent child. And I'm just thinking as you're giving examples of affection, it, it even goes beyond the hugs and kisses and appropriate touch to acts of service and lighting up with them and spending that quality time and all those love languages.   Amy Rienow: (44:18 - 46:16) That's right. As the kids get older, I mean, my, my, we joke about, you know, I have certain sons that, did not want to be touched at all when they were 13, 14. We laughed at my son J.D. like he would want to come give me hugs and he would want to, but it had to always be on his terms.   Like I could never come up, you know what I mean? And how can you, my affection towards him was I'll get you a double cheeseburger. I will make you a milkshake.   That was the way I communicated my affection to him, but it was also my presence in listening to him when he needed to be listening to. There's so many ways as we get older. Right.   And I love Gary Chapman's work as far as like understanding our kids love, love languages, but I'll never forget, you know, I just had JD's wedding and he surprised me with the mother son dance and he had a song ready for me. I'm going to cry again, but it was this wonderful, he had told his siblings that he was probably going to cry on his wedding day when he saw Brooke and when he danced with his mom. And I had so many, and he was really hugging me and holding on and not afraid to be affectionate with me during that dance.   And that's because affection has always been a normal part of our home and a normal part of our relationship. And so, I just want to encourage parents out there not to be afraid of both physical affection when they're young and don't push your child. If your child is needing you or wants hugs, I would say, don't hesitate to give those to them because there is a culture again that pushes kids like, Oh, you shouldn't need that now.   You shouldn't, you're too old for that. Let them determine those boundaries. You give them the hugs and the affection as long as they still want it.   Cause I promise you they're all going to come to a day and they're not gonna want it. And you don't need to worry about if they're looking for that for you, it's a need that, that you can still meet.   Laura Dugger: (46:17 - 46:34) Well, and one other piece of parenting. I know we oftentimes hear mom guilt. I don't know if dads experienced the same thing, but how can we overcome that?   And what do you see as being at the root of struggling with sometimes that false guilt?   Amy Rienow: (46:35 - 49:52) Yes. Well, that I think comes so much again. Well, for me, it came internalized.   I had, I carried some internalized guilt with me, but that's compounded by a culture that puts so many expectations and demands on us as mothers. Where we are bombarded with another ideal, another sense of where we're falling short. And again, I know I keep coming back to the spiritual attack, but the point is I want to lay it out there that sometimes, sometimes moms can feel like, especially in an area, this sounds interesting, but because so many more children have been in daycare or exposed to a lot more developmental things at young ages. If you are like home with your kids, if you feel like, well, gosh, I'm not providing a craft every day.   I'm not, you know, I'm not reading. I went to the library and it literally had this whole campaign on a thousand books before kindergarten. Like, are you kidding me?   And that's the kind of thing. It's like, you're just having a normal mom day and all of a sudden you walk into the library and you get bombarded with what? I'm supposed to read my child a thousand books before, like a new standard that's just put in front of you.   And the enemy uses that to, to make women feel that they're not enough, you know? And first of all, we have to go back to God's word. That says, “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”   And to really understand that, yes, we need to be open to be convicted to sin. But when we are convicted of something that our heavenly father wants us to change, we will experience a freedom and a lightning when we repent. And it'll be like a burden lifted up.   And as soon as you have that revenge, you feel like you've been given a gift. It's not something that's a burden. So, that is always my guide for women.   Like if you are under something that you feel like is a burden that you're carrying around, um, this sense that you're not doing enough or that you're a bad mom, that is not coming from your Heavenly Father. You need to reject that in the name of Jesus Christ, because this sense is clearly from the accuser. The Bible says Satan is an accuser and he stands accusing us, but Jesus is there to, you know, to say, no, that's my child.   They're covered by my love covered by my grace. So, we don't want to live under that over that guilt, bad mom guilt shadow for whatever, you know, God knows our faults. He doesn't expect us not to have faults, and your children are going to have faults and your husband are going to have faults.   So, if we think that the Lord is, you know, carrying around our faults, hanging over this, we need to, we need to be reminded that that's not from him and we have to reject it. And again, we're talking about a spiritual battle. You might have to reject the same lie 20 times a day until you find real freedom from falling for that guilt trap.   Laura Dugger: (49:53 - 50:12) Well, and along those lines, as you talk about engaging in the battle, you encourage us as children to woo our children in this same way that the Lord draws us close to him. So, how can we go and do likewise as the Lord does?   Amy Rienow: (50:12 - 52:09) Woo our children's hearts. Like I think it's important to know that the relationship that we have, our kids will, the more we model our relationship, our parenting off of how our heavenly father parents us, the easier it will be for our kids to kind of what I, I have a visual in my mind that I'm walking with my child's hand and I'm holding Jesus hand and I'm gradually through this parenting, trying to connect my child's hand to Jesus hands.   Like that's the picture that I want to be guiding my parenting, not I'm trying to raise you to be X, Y, Z, da, da, da, da, da. I'm trying to lead you to your Heavenly Savior. So, you're going to walk with Him.   So, Jesus is, you know, there's many components of our relationship with Jesus and the Heavenly Father and Holy spirit. But one of them is that God woos the hearts of his people. When you read scripture, He desired, He's always telling them you walk with Me.   “My burden is easy. My yoke is light.” You know what I mean?   He's, He's showing us this freedom and this love and grace. He's not coming with a sense of, see, you're doing this and this and this and this and this. And that's why. You know what I mean?   Like you see God's everlasting love for his people. And we want to woo our children with that same kind of everlasting love. You know, I always say, say you can, you can demand your kids to obey you.   You can demand your kids to respect you, but no one can demand love. Even our Heavenly Father doesn't demand love. He gives us free will and choice to choose to love him.   And so, we want to remember that with our kids to woo them. We want them to choose to love us. So, we woo our hearts.   You already mentioned Gary Chapman by understanding our kids' love languages. You know, realizing that's part of our job as a parent is to woo their hearts.   Laura Dugger: (52:10 - 53:13) So, I love how you're drawing this out as the Lord being the best parent ever and that we can learn from Him. That was something that I felt like he was really teaching me in my quiet time this week. And I wanted to take it one step further.   So, for me applying that, I just made a note on my phone and now anytime I come across a parenting scripture, I want to put it in this same list and go back and review it and be prayerful that the Lord can change me to be more like Him as a parent. So, I'm just going to share the first verse that inspired me to do this this week is Luke 6:36 and the amplified version again, “Be merciful, responsive, compassionate, tender, just as your Heavenly Father is merciful.” And so, Amy, just as He's a great parent and we can learn from Him, I appreciate you just drawing us back, pointing us to the heart of the Father.   And if we want to continue learning from you after this chat, where would you like to direct us?   Amy Rienow: (53:13 - 55:30) Well, I'd love you to come to our website at visionaryfam.com and listen to us at our podcast, Family Vision. You know, we named it Family Vision kind of like television because television really changed the American family. It did when it first introduced on to the scene and our heart is that family vision.   Our podcasts would help give your family a new vision, a vision from God's word for all that he wants to do in your family. You can also find our books well on our website, but also on Amazon. We have, I brought a couple today, but Not So Perfect Mom: Learning to Embrace What Matters Most, which is what you're talking about today.   And this book is very close to my heart because it really was wonderful. It was the easiest book I've ever written because I just felt like it was being able to talk about how God has worked in my own life and my own journey. And it just was the like culmination of so many conversations I've had with moms like all over the country, but really overseas and over the world.   And we're all battling some of the same exact things. So, I just, I would encourage you to pick up Not So Perfect Mom: Learning to Embrace What Matters Most. And then the other book that is, it's not new, it's called Shine Embracing God's Heart for You.   I'm actually leading a group of women through it on a zoom study right now. Um, but I actually wrote this, originally back in 2005 when I was a youth pastor's wife. Um, but really it's all about kind of what I talked about earlier of just, recognizing how to, to trust and believe the Lord.   I said, you know, wholeheartedly with our head and our hearts and our hands and, and really going back to, you know, keeping God first, identifying idols in our life. So, we, you know, the more that we get our own relationship with the Lord centered and we kind of figured that part out. I feel like everything flows from that in our homes, in our marriage, in our other relationships. So, I highly recommend, um, picking up this shine and there's a prayer journal to go with it.   There's a leader's guide. If you'd like to lead a group and that's all on Amazon or at our website.   Laura Dugger: (55:31 - 55:48) Wonderful. As always we'll add the links to that in the show notes for today's episode and Amy, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Amy Rienow: (55:48 - 57:06) I love that question. My Savvy Sauce is actually mentioned in Not So Perfect Mom, but it's when the Lord gave me that quote, “whatever is worth doing is worth doing poorly.” I feel that perfectionism kept me paralyzed so often.   If I couldn't do things exactly the way I thought that they should be in my head, then I was kind of pathetic and wasn't going to do it at all. And so, my encouragement in any area, if you know something is worth doing. Let me give you a practical example really quick on this, even when it comes to like, um, when you're struggling with your marriage. I know I had some issues in my marriage with my husband where I was getting to the point where I didn't even really want to go out on a date, you know, because it was just discouraging and whatever's worth doing is worth doing poorly. So, knowing that, you know, even when my relationships aren't living up to my expectations, or even when I'm feeling hurt, the Lord tells us to press on. Don't, don't stop doing what you know, God wants you to do, um, because you don't think it's living up to your expectations.   Do it. Just do it.   Laura Dugger: (57:07 - 57:38) That's a good word. And Amy, you have so much to share. Our family has benefited so much from the ministry and work that you and Rob do through Visionary Families.   And I am just so grateful for your time and you just to share all of this parenting wisdom. It felt like a mentoring conversation. I loved hearing all the ways that you've been intentional in what you've learned from the Lord. So, thank you for seeking Him.   Thank you for sharing with us and thank you for being my guest.   Amy Rienow: (57:39 - 57:58) Thank you, Laura, for having me. It's been a delight. I love connecting hearts with people who are like-minded.   I love what you're doing with The Savvy Sauce. In fact, my neighbor is one of your devoted followers, and she was so excited to hear about your podcast. So, thank you so much for having me and it's truly an honor and a pleasure to be here.   Laura Dugger: (57:59 - 1:01:13) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Do you know your weakness?Psalms 36:1-3 (NIV)Romans 16:18 (KJV)(AMP)(MSG)2 Timothy 3:6 (NIV)(MSG)Ephesians 5:6 (NIV)1 Peter 3:10 (NIV)1 Peter 2:1-3, 21-22 (NIV)Psalms 32:2 (VOICE)Psalms 120:2 (NIV)

271. Ways to Engage with Youth, Teens, and Gen Z in Church and at Home with Dr. Kara Powell   *Transcription Below*   1 Thessalonians 2:8 NIV "so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well."   Kara Powell, PhD, is the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Theological Seminary, the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and the founder of the TENx10 Collaboration. Named by Christianity Today as one of "50 Women to Watch," Kara serves as a youth and family strategist for Orange, and she also speaks regularly at national parenting and leadership conferences. Kara has authored or coauthored numerous books, including Faith Beyond Youth Group, 3 Big Questions That Shape Your Future, 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, Growing With, Growing Young, The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family, and the entire Sticky Faith series.   Kara and her husband, Dave, are regularly inspired by the learning and laughter that come from their three young adult children.   Questions and Topics We Cover: What insights do you have to share on Gen-Z? When it comes to navigating intergenerational tensions, how can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together? In your most recent book, entitled, Future-Focused Church, you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead. What led you to that realization?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 127 Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw 2 God-Honoring Relationship Between a Mother-in-Law and Daughter-in-Law with Author of The Mother-in-Law Dance, Annie Chapman   Stories Sampler from The Savvy Sauce Stories Series: 233 Stories Series: Surprises from God with Tiffany Noel 235 Stories Series: Ever-Present Help in Trouble with Kent Heimer 242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel 245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow 246 Stories Series: Experiencing God's Tangible Love with Jen Moore   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 2:13) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org.    I am so honored to introduce my guest for today, Dr. Kara Powell. She is the Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary and the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute. She's also founder of the 10x10 Collaboration and named by today as one of 50 women to watch. She is also extremely humble and insightful as she's going to discuss how we can leverage the power of stories and questions in our relationships at church and in our family and in beyond, and this is to model the life of Jesus. Make sure you also stay tuned in through the end because she's going to share a plethora of conversations and questions specifically to ask when we're engaging in conversation with young people, whether that's our own children and teens or our grandchildren or people in the community or our churches. It's some questions that you don't want to miss. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kara.   Dr. Kara Powell: (2:07 - 2:09) Oh, it's so good to be with you and your audience, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (2:09 - 2:13) Well, I'd love for you just to first give us a snapshot of your current life and share what's led you to the work that you get to do today.   Dr. Kara Powell: (2:14 - 4:06) Yeah, absolutely. So, let's see. I'll start with family. Dave and I have been married for I think 27-ish years, and we have three kids who are 24, 22, and 19.   Our youngest is a college freshman, and so we're technically empty nesters, but I actually like the term open nesters better because our kids come back, which we love. They come back in the summers and sometimes after college. And we actually, since I live in Pasadena, California, which had the fires in January, we actually have another 22-year-old young woman living with us, which we love.   So, we love having my husband, Dave, and I love having young people around, whether it's our own three kids or the young woman who's living with us. And I'm also a faculty member at Fuller Seminary, and while I certainly teach periodically, my main roles at Fuller actually have to do with leadership beyond Fuller. I'm the chief of leadership formation at Fuller, so I oversee all of Fuller's non-degree offerings, and then I'm the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, which is a research center that studies the faith of adolescents.   And I love that question, what got me to the work that I do today? Well, God would be the answer to that, but I was a long-term youth pastor here in Southern California at two different churches, loved teenagers, and Fuller was getting ready to start a new research center that was going to listen to the needs of parents and leaders, and then do research to answer those needs. And that really intrigued me, because I love young people, and I love research, and I love real-life ministry and family.   And so, I thought, well, I would love to hear more about that center, and I've been at Fuller now for over 20 years.   Laura Dugger: (4:07 - 4:17) Wow, that's incredible. And quick side note, I'm just so sorry for everything that you all endured in January with all the fires.   Dr. Kara Powell: (4:17 - 4:39) Yeah, it's heartbreaking, and in some ways, in many ways, devastating. And I'm grateful for how God is working through churches and working through God's people. So, there's all sorts of bright spots in the midst of the pain.   But yes, please pray that churches and God's people would be salt and light, because it's going to be a few years of rebuilding.   Laura Dugger: (440 - 4:43) Yes, Lord Jesus, may that be true. Amen.   Dr. Kara Powell: (4:43 - 4:44) Yeah, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (4:45 - 5:17) And I know with your background, you've studied practical theology, and you also have this broad knowledge of psychology. But some churches haven't studied psychology as much, and so I think that typically leads to less of an appreciation for it. But my fear is that they may miss out if they completely ignore it.   So, will you share some of the benefits that you've seen that come from applying God's truth from any of theologies?   Dr. Kara Powell: (5:17 - 8:14) Yeah, yeah. Well, at Fuller Seminary, we have two schools. One is our School of Mission and Theology, which I'm an alum of and a faculty member in.   And the other is our School of Psychology. And so, Laura, you asked a question that's right at the heart of what we love about training leaders and therapists. And in fact, my favorite statue at Fuller, the title of it is Planting the Cross in the Heart of Psychology.   And that's exactly what we believe. So, you know, God's made us as holistic people. And I love thinking both about how is our theology driving us as well as our psychology.   And you know, one way to think about our psychology, a colleague of mine at Fuller talks about people's losses and longings. And that phrase has been so helpful for me. Like, what are people's losses and longings?   And how is that connected with how they're responding? So, so much of our work at the Fuller Youth Institute relates to young people. And I remember coaching a senior pastor who was experiencing a lot of resistance to prioritizing young people from senior adults.   And what the senior pastor realized is, of course, I shouldn't say of course, but in this particular church, when he was saying we need to prioritize young people, those over 60 felt like, wait, that means I'm not going to be a priority. People who are older often already feel that here in US culture. And so, no wonder that was intimidating, that was threatening, that felt like a loss to those senior adults.   And so, I love what the senior pastor ended up doing is he implemented one of our principles of change that we recommend, which is people support what they create. And so, if you want to build ownership, then how can you involve as many people as possible in creating whatever you're trying to develop? And so, the senior pastor went to the senior adults and apologized for sending a message that, you know, made them feel like they were not going to be priority.   And instead, he said, how can we make this church a church that your grandkids would love to be part of? And that connected with those, you know, post 60, most of whom were grandparents, whether their grandkids live locally, or, you know, globally, they wanted their church to be a place where their grandkids and other young people would connect. And so, you know, he turned senior adults feeling like they were peripheral, to really feeling like they were partners in what God was doing in the church.   And so, yes, I would invite us all to think about what are people's losses and longings? And how is that contributing to how they're responding to whatever we're all experiencing?   Laura Dugger: (8:15 - 10:20) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time?   Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. From premarital to parenting to the empty nest phase, there is an opportunity for you. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even when it seems things are going smoothly, so that they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.   These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well fed, well nurtured and well cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication and more.   I've stayed on Winshape before and I can attest to their generosity, food and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, windshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org/S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Well, Kara, you've also done so much research on young people and just in general, I'd love to hear what insights do you have on Gen Z?   Dr. Kara Powell: (10:20 - 14:16) Yeah, yeah. Well, we at the Fuller Youth Institute, we have spent a lot of time studying and doing research on Gen Z, which tends to be those who are 14, 15 and up. Our very youngest teenagers are all actually now Gen Alpha, but we'll talk about Gen Z.   And as we've looked at the research, we've landed on three words which we think well describe Gen Z. First, they are anxious. And if we look at young people today, they do have unprecedented levels of mental health challenges, anxiety, depression, stress, even suicidal thoughts.   And so, we do a lot of training to help parents and leaders understand mental health and how they can be a safe space and get young people the help they need. So, this is an anxious generation. This is an adaptive generation.   This generation is so creative and entrepreneurial and visionary. You know, while there's a lot of downsides to technology, technology also helps young people know more about what's wrong in the world and sometimes take steps to make what is wrong right and restore God's justice to our world. And so, this is an adaptive and creative generation.   And then in addition to being anxious and adaptive, this is a diverse generation. Here in the U.S., we crossed a line in 2020. In the midst of everything else that happened in 2020, we crossed a line where now 50% of those under 18 are young people of color.   So, for your audience to just keep that in mind that 50% of those under 18 are white and 50% are young people of color and that percentage of young people of color is likely going to continue to grow. So, I would say those are three key attributes to this generation. And then, you know, when it comes to what this generation is experiencing spiritually, I really appreciate what my friend and fellow podcaster Carey Nieuwhof has described with young people that they are both in revival and retreat.   And, you know, we see data for both. There's so much that's encouraging about how young people are responding to Jesus. They're open to Jesus.   We're seeing this especially on college campuses. They're responding in mass on college campuses in some really beautiful ways. Both InterVarsity and Crew are seeing that.   But then this generation is also in some ways distancing themselves from the institutional church. Springtide Research Institute did some study of 13- to 25-year-olds and found that 13- to 25-year-olds in the U.S. are almost three times as likely to say they've been hurt by organized religion as trust organized religion. So, our 13- to 25-year-olds are distrustful, a little cynical about institutional religion.   And so, we have our work cut out for us to build trust back. And let me just say, sadly, we have earned young people's lack of trust by the way that by our moral failures, by the way that we have not been as loving as Jesus wants us to be and as young people want us to be. And so, the good news is the way that we re-earn trust with young people is by little acts of kindness and consistency.   So, anybody listening can rebuild trust with a young person. The research on trust shows it's not about heroic acts. It's about sending a text and saying, hey, I'm praying for you.   It's about remembering a young person's name at church. It's about showing up at a young person's soccer game. So, in the midst of this generation and being both revival and retreat, there are practical steps that any adult can take.   Laura Dugger: (14:17 - 14:36) Wow, that's so good. You've got ideas now coming to me for how to pour into even the youth group. This is probably a very random idea, but how great would it be to have a Google calendar of all of their events and then whoever in the church is available to go support? That would just be a practical way.   Dr. Kara Powell: (14:36 - 15:45) Okay, so, Laura, you have just named actually one of my favorite ideas that a church that is here in Los Angeles is doing. They created a Google calendar and volunteers as well as parents can add information. But then what this church did, they started with a Google calendar and then it's a church of about 300 people.   And so, they have now started every Sunday morning. They have a slide with what's happening in young people's lives for the next week. So-and-so is in a play.   So-and-so has a basketball game. So-and-so has a Boy Scout activity. And so, adults in the church, often senior adults who have some extra time, are showing up at kids' events.   Plus, every week they're prioritizing young people. So, when you're a young person in that church and every week there's a slide about you and your friends and what's happening, that says something to the young people sitting there. So, yeah, you're-I actually love that idea.   And especially for smaller churches, I think that's one of the big advantages of smaller churches is we can be more intimate and caring. So, yes, let's please do that.   Laura Dugger: (15:46 - 16:00) Oh, that's so good. I love hearing how that played out. And now I'm also curious because you mentioned it's Gen Alpha behind.   Do you have any insight onto them as well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (16:00 - 16:27) Well, you're going to have to have me back because we are just-we received a grant from the Lilly Endowment, who's funded much of our research to study Gen Alpha. And they're just getting old enough that we really can, quite honestly. And so, like literally this week we are working on survey questions for Gen Alpha.   And we'll have more in the next year about what's similar between Gen Z and Gen Alpha, as well as what's different. So, I'd rather wait and save that for later.   Laura Dugger: (16:28 - 16:34) That sounds great. I'm especially interested in that generation. That is all four of our daughters would fall within that. So, I can't wait to hear your findings.   Dr. Kara Powell: (16:34 - 16:36) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (16:38 - 17:15) And I think it's also bringing up, I'm going to link to a previous episode, Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw, because I don't know if you feel this same way. I think millennials especially got pegged as the generational bias put on them was actually confused with their life stage. And Hayden's the one who wrote about that and drew that to our attention.   So, that's helpful to sift out as we're thinking of young people too, because sometimes older generations can look down on younger generations and see some of the shortcomings. Do you see that as well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (17:16 - 18:55) Oh, for sure. For sure. I think we compare young people to who we are now instead of remembering our 13 and 19 and 25 year old self.   And so, I mean, that's one of our biggest pieces of advice when it comes to young people is instead of judging them, how do we journey with them? How do we really empathize with what they're experiencing? And when we are tempted to judge young people, let's just start at, well, let's just stop and ask ourselves, would we want to be a young person today?   It's so very challenging to be a young person today. I mean, mental health alone, like if I think about my tendency to, as a teenager myself, to compare myself with others, to be worried that I was left out. I mean, if there was a cell phone that showed me everything my friends were doing without me, and I'm stuck at home, like no wonder that young people feel more anxious.   I think I would really be struggling with anxiety if I was a teenager now. I mean, honestly, even at my age, I don't check social media on Friday night or Saturday night, because I might be, Dave and I might be having leftovers and either working or watching a movie on Netflix. And I go on social media and my friends are out with their husbands and having this phenomenal time.   And at my age, that makes me feel insecure, let alone imagine being a 13 or 18- or 22-year-old and navigating that. So, so yes, I think how can we empathize instead of finger point?   Laura Dugger: (18:56 - 19:12) Oh, and you write about how to navigate intergenerational tensions. How can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together? And I guess, especially in the church?   Dr. Kara Powell: (19:12 - 22:39) Yeah, yeah, great question. So, one of our books is called Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager. And we studied young people to try to understand the deep questions driving them.   And we landed on three. Identity, who am I? Belonging, where do I fit? And purpose, what difference can I make?   Identity, belonging and purpose. And those are that's such a helpful framework to understand young people and to empathize with them.   First off, I would say all of us are wrestling with identity, belonging and purpose. And when I feel emotional heat about an issue, if I feel insecure about something, it's usually because it's pricking at my identity, belonging or purpose. And so, that helps us realize that we navigate those questions, too.   But then also for the we who are parents, stepparents, grandparents, mentors of young people, you know, if a young person we care about is doing something that feels a little odd, a little askew, a little bit, that's not like them. If we can take a step back and ask, OK, what are they wrestling with? Is it identity?   Is it belonging? Is it purpose? That helps us empathize and know how to either ask a better question or, you know, give a little bit of hope rooted in whether that's rooted in scripture or in our own experience.   And so, yes, with our with our three kids, when I take a step back and ask, OK, they're saying something that feels odd or unlike them or I'm surprised this is provoking this response in them. Is it is it their identity, belonging or purpose that's at play here? It's like the penny drops and I come to understand.   So, I would say, you know, if we can wear those identity, belonging and purpose lenses, that really helps us understand young people. The other thing and, you know, I'm a professor, so I would give myself about a C plus in what I'm going to share next. OK, so if this is something I'm working on, it's this it's never make a statement if you can ask a question instead, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead.   And so, the more that we can ask questions about what young people are experiencing, like why, why, you know, in a very nonjudgmental way, like I'm just curious. And I start a lot of my questions with that. I'm curious.   I'm curious, like what does tick tock mean to you? Then, you know, that that can open up a real conversation instead of them feeling like we're somehow judging them for their technological use. I was proud of myself yesterday.   Like I said, I give myself about a C plus on this. But yesterday I was talking to my daughter about something. And I asked her, like, well, because she had stepped up to lead something.   And so instead of offering my advice, I said to her, well, you know, what do you think you did well as you were leading? And is there anything that you would want to do differently? And we were in the line of a fast-food place.   And I thought, yes, way to go. I ask questions instead of making statements, instead of offering my opinion. So, and sometimes we have to offer our opinion, for sure.   But just as a general rule, we can ask questions, especially the older our kids get. They respond to that better than us always sharing what we think.   Laura Dugger: (22:39 - 22:47) Well, and I also think you're even modeling this in the way you share stories is humility. So, when you partner that together, that seems very powerful.   Dr. Kara Powell: (22:48 - 23:53) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. My one of my kids said something so interesting. At Mother's Day, my husband asked each of them to share something that they appreciated about me and which was wonderful to receive that affirmation.   And one of them and I I'm not going to reveal the gender here because I haven't asked this child permission to share this. But what my child said was that I was asking them for advice in a way that made it feel more like we were becoming friends. And I had asked this child for advice in the last couple of months about a couple situations.   And so, again, my kids are 19, 22 and 24. So, you know, it's different with younger kids. But for those of us with older kids, it was significant to this child of mine that I was asking them for advice.   And so, I want to keep doing that. I want to keep doing that. So, because I truly do want their perspective.   Yeah, I truly do want their perspective. And it means something to them when I do.   Laura Dugger: (23:54 - 25:28) Yes, absolutely. And I'm thinking back, this may have been like episode three back in 2018. But I talk with Annie Chapman.   She had written the book, The Mother-in-Law Dance. And what you're saying, she pointed out that what makes us a great parent and especially a great mother, the first half of our children's life or the first portion of our children's life at home, it's the opposite of the latter years. And so, you're right.   You're not probably going to ask your five-year-old for advice. But at your kids' phases, that is significant. Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights?   Make sure you access all of this at TheSavvySauce.com by clicking the button that says Join Our Email List so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy.    This discussion with young people is also tied into your recent and optimistic book.   So, I'll hold it up here. It's in and you did co-author this with Jake Mulder and Raymond Chang. So, it's entitled Future-Focused Church, and you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead.   So, what led you to this optimistic realization?   Dr. Kara Powell: (25:28 - 26:23) Yeah. Yeah. Well, first, God, you know, this is where being a practical theologian comes into play.   Like I'm always trying to understand what is God up to in this situation and just the way that God is constantly working, redeeming, recreating. So, you know, that's the heart of my optimism and Jake and Ray's optimism as fellow co-authors. And then also Future-Focused Church is based on research we did with over a thousand churches where we journeyed with them in the change process and just the way that they were able to make changes that made them more loving, made them more hospitable to young people.   So, it's, you know, it's people like your listeners and churches like those that your audience is part of. That's what made us optimistic is to see how God is working through actual churches.   Laura Dugger: (26:25 - 26:40) I love that. And even near the beginning, it was on page 26, you succinctly gave a definition of a future-focused church. So, will you share that definition and also elaborate on each one of the facets?   Dr. Kara Powell: (26:40 - 29:17) Yeah, yeah. So, it starts with a group of Jesus followers. And, you know, if you look at the original Greek for church, ekklesia, it's not a building.   We use that phrase incorrectly when we say, you know, I'll meet you at church and we mean a building. It's actually those who are called out or from. So, it's always people in the New Testament.   And so, we believe a church is a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. And that's really important to us is this isn't about what Kara, Jake and Ray think you should do or what the church down the street is doing or even what your denomination is doing. It's you seeking God's direction together.   So, and we could have stopped there, honestly, a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. But then because of the time we've spent with over a thousand churches, because of our commitment to young people, because of what we see happening these days, we added three what we call checkpoints, three things that we think should be priorities for churches these days. One is relationally discipling young people.   And, you know, we were intentionally using the words relationally discipling. It's not just entertaining. It's not just standing near young people at worship service.   But how are we actually investing in young people? And then secondly, modeling kingdom diversity. Again, if you look at our country ethnically and racially, we are a diverse country.   And so, how can we model that? How can our churches reflect what our neighborhoods are? And then thirdly, tangibly loving our neighbors.   Jesus said that, you know, they will know that we are Christians by our love for another, for each other, as well as our love for neighbors. And so, how can we make sure that we are really a place that is salt and light? As I mentioned, you know, we are trying to be in Pasadena as churches these days as we're recovering from the fires.   So, we encourage churches to look at those three checkpoints in particular. But then again, we want churches to figure out what God is inviting them towards. So, maybe that's more prayer.   Maybe that's being more involved globally in evangelism, you know, whatever it might be. Seek that direction together. But then what we try to do is give a map to get there, because a lot of churches know what they want to change, but don't know how to bring about change.   And so, that's actually what the bulk of our book is about, is helping leaders know how to move their church from here to God's direction for them.   Laura Dugger: (29:18 - 30:27) And that's incredible that you walked with so many churches through that process. But I was especially encouraged by you being partial to sharing stories. And so, we recently did an entire stories series on The Savvy Sauce, and it was so compelling and faith building.   I can link to a sample of those in the show notes. But you write about stories shaping culture. And I just I want to share your quote and then ask you how we can actually implement this.   So, your quote is from page 57, where you write, “Organizational culture is best communicated and illustrated by stories. As well modeled by Jesus, one of the best ways to shift the culture of a church is through the disciplined and consistent telling of clear and compelling stories that invite a different culture and way of being.” So, Kara, how have you seen this done well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (30:27 - 33:10) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think about whatever system we're in, whether it's our families or whether it's our churches or whatever organization we're in. Yeah, our stories become really the key messages of what our culture is.   And so, I want to go back to that church that we were talking about that had a Google calendar and now does a Sunday announcement every week of kids' events. Well, that church is also capturing stories of the 81-year-old who showed up at the 16-year-old soccer game, who didn't even know her all that well, but just had a free Thursday afternoon and knew that she was playing. And the pastor who was also on the sidelines at that soccer game, who ended up talking to both the parents of the 16-year-old and the 81-year-old.   And so, that became a story for that church of how different generations are supporting young people. And so, that pastor has told that story multiple, multiple times. You know, I just think about in our family, our kids love hearing our stories.   And that's part of how they I mean, it's a big, a big theme and how they come to know what it means to be a Powell. So, you know, earlier I said, you know, I said, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead. I think the exception to that, Laura, is if we're going to tell a story because stories communicate so much.   One of our one of our children is struggling with being anxious about something. And I was anxious last night. I never lose sleep.   I so rarely lose sleep. But I did last night. I was up for about an hour and a half in the middle of the night, finally ended up having a prayer time.   And that helped me go back to sleep. But I'm looking forward to telling my child, who's also struggling with anxiety, that story of me experiencing some, you know, 3:00 a.m. anxiety and what eventually helped me is kind of reflecting on a mantra I feel like God's given me. And I want to share that with my child, not to nag them, but just to let them know that, you know, in our family, this is how we want to try to respond to anxiety.   And maybe my story can be helpful for you the next time that you're struggling with it, which might be today. So, so, yes, the more that we can share our present and our past experiences, whether it's as individuals, families, organizations, the more that we communicate the cultural values that we want.   Laura Dugger: (33:11 - 33:45) That's so good. And I love how you're relating that to parents as well, because from the very youngest ages, tell me a story. And if it's like if we remember a story of them when they're a child, they just grasp onto that.   And we when we're tired at the end of the night, if we run out of our stories, we love even just reading aloud true stories of other people, too. OK, and I'm partnering then thinking of stories and one of your facets about I love how you said it. I'd love for you to repeat. Is it strategically discipling, relationally discipling?   Dr. Kara Powell: (33:45 - 33:46) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (33:46 - 35:03) OK, so my brother and sister's church, I'm just going to highlight theirs because I love something that both of them are doing with our nieces and nephews. They just have them, the youth, write down three names of somebody in a different generation above theirs that they would enjoy getting to know, spending time with. And then they get matched with one of those people and they enter a yearlong mentorship relationship.   And I'm just thinking, one, their mentors all happen to be open nesters. And the male and female who have mentored our nieces and nephews, the female took our nieces, would send them a copy of a recipe, say, get these groceries this week. I'm coming to your house on Tuesday and we're going to cook all of this together and have it ready for your family dinner.   Just so practical and that they just build a love for each other. And then a similar thing with our nephews, where whatever that mentor's skill was, he was great at even making, I think, wood fired pizzas and just showing them practical skills, but relationally investing. And you see the youth's growth and maturity from that discipleship.   Dr. Kara Powell: (35:03 - 36:17) So, yeah, that's awesome. And not only the young people, but the adults, too. Like what's been so great, Laura, is, you know, while much of our research has looked at how adults change young people and how churches change young people, every time we study that, we see how young people change adults and churches, too.   So, you know, for that male and female who are mentoring your nieces and nephews, how they come to understand more about themselves, God, life, scripture, as they're spending time with young people, that's just really, really powerful. So, I also want to highlight, I love how your example, how it starts by asking young people, like who are some adults that you would like to spend more time with that you look up to? And, you know, we would do that with our kids when we needed babysitters.   Like who are some adults that you would like to get to know and how wonderful then that we could ask those adults, especially if they were of babysitting age, to come and be with our kids. And that way we were getting the babysitting we needed and our kids were getting the mentoring that they needed. So, so, yes, I think, you know, giving a young person some agency and who they spend time with, that's really beautiful in that example.   Laura Dugger: (36:18 - 36:21) Oh, that's and that's genius for a family life.   Dr. Kara Powell: (36:21 - 36:22) Yeah, exactly, exactly.   Laura Dugger: (36:23 - 36:39) Well, you also share some other helpful tips for churches, such as considering questions like, would anyone miss our church if it closed down? So, do you have any other practical tips that you want to make sure we don't miss?   Dr. Kara Powell: (36:39 - 40:19) Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, I'll offer a few questions that we have found really helpful. And I'll start with questions when your kids are in elementary and then I'll give a couple of questions when your kids are older.   So, so one of the questions that we love asking at dinner when our kids were in elementary was, how did you see God at work today? And I will say that when I first raised that question, one of my daughters said, “Well, mommy, I can't answer that question. And I said, why not?”   She said, “Well, I don't have a job. How did you see God at work today? So, then we had to say, well, how did you see God working today?”   And I, you know, and equally important as our kids asking that question is that we were, excuse me, as our kids answering that question is that we were answering that question. And so, so, you know, any way that you can involve meaningful sharing, whether it's a dinner, whether it's a bedtime and that you are sharing, too. So, so that that's been a great one for our family.   And then when your kids get older, a couple come to mind. One is two pairs of questions actually come to mind. One is, you know, the phrase never make a statement.   Maybe you can ask the question said sometimes we do need to offer our advice as parents, our perspective. And I have found when I do that with my kids is now that they're late young adults, if I ask them first, well, what do you disagree with and what I said and give them an opportunity to critique what I said, then and then I ask a second question. OK, well, what might you agree with and what I said?   They're far more open to sharing what they agree with if they first have had a chance to critique me. So, I offer that as in those moments when you do need to offer your opinion or perspective, how can we still make it a dialogue? One way is to invite your kid to critique you.   And they'll probably point out things that you do need to reconsider, or at least it's good to hear those from your young person. Another pair of questions that that I have found so helpful with our kids is as they get older and really come to own their own faith. I love asking our kids, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe?   And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe? So, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe? And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe?   What I love about that is that it's making overt that our faith is going to continue to change and grow. And that's true for all of us. And it also makes differences discussable, because I'd far rather know how my kids' faith is changing and how it's different or similar than mine than not know.   And, you know, as we've asked our kids those questions over the years, sometimes their answer is like, not much has changed. Like, you know, but other times they do have different opinions that they want to share with me. And then I try to have that non-defensive, oh, OK, well, I'm curious.   Then again, starting phrase with I'm curious and then asking a question has given us some of the best conversations. So, you can get really tangible. How did you see God at work today?   But then as your kids get older, ask questions that that are more open-ended and can help you really understand where your kids are at.   Laura Dugger: (40:20 - 41:15) I love that.    And I'm just thinking if people are listening like I listen to podcasts, it's when I'm on the go, when I'm doing a walk in the morning or if I'm cleaning around the house. And if you don't get a chance to take notes, we do have transcripts available now for all these episodes, but I would think so many people have written in about dialogue and questions for teenagers and how to handle.   And I love the way you responded to all of that. So, even grab the transcript and write down those questions and try them at dinner or bedtime tonight. But then even thinking of churches for practical tips, what do you have as far as hospitality and the impact that it could make if we're building relationships through hospitality?   But you also call out three ways to build relationships through sharing meals, sharing stories and sharing experiences.   Dr. Kara Powell: (41:15 - 43:08) Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think you've named it, Laura. How do we have a hospitable, open heart and open churches?   And I just want to go back to this question. Like, is our church a place that our kids and our grandkids would want to be part of? And if we keep asking that question, I think it helps us prioritize the next generation and make space for them at our meals, within our stories and within our experiences.   Now, I will say this, you know, I talk so much about intergenerational relationships and bringing the generations together. Like, I do think there's a time and a place for 16-year-olds to be on their own and 46-year-olds to be on their own and 76-year-olds to be on their own. It's just finding that balance of when do we bring all the generations together?   And then when do we want to have those special life development, life stage development conversations ourselves? And most churches are swinging far more toward we keep generations separate and need to swing the pendulum back to how can we have shared meals together? How can we serve together in ways that are shared?   And, you know, I'll just say this last thought when it comes to sharing experiences, especially those that are service. You know, a lot of churches have young people who are serving. They're in children's ministry, they're in sound, they're in tech, etc.   And that's awesome. And I think the question becomes, like, how can that young person be more than just a warm body who passes out graham crackers? And how can I think, OK, I'm teaching third graders and I'm also trying to mentor this 15-year-old who's working with me with the third graders and same with sound.   So, you know, anytime you're interacting with young people, it's an opportunity to influence, especially as you're sharing more about yourself.   Laura Dugger: (43:10 - 43:15) Love that. And you seem like an idea person as well. So, I'm going to bounce another idea.   Dr. Kara Powell: (43:16 - 43:16) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (43:16 - 43:45) What I'm gathering is obviously we're keeping Jesus at the center and you're not downplaying the need for scripture or Bible study. And those kind of things but also adding there is value in I'm thinking shared experience. Specifically, I'm thinking of pickleball.   It's something that appeals to a wide age range. What if your church had invested in a pickleball sport to do something that could bring people together? So, what are your thoughts on that?     Dr. Kara Powell: (43:45 - 45:22) Yeah. Yeah. Pickleball, you know, senior adults who need tech help from teenagers.   That's another great way to connect people. I mean, any kind of shared interest 1 Thessalonians 2:8 is such an important scripture passage for me when it comes to discipleship. And Paul writes that we were delighted to share with you not just the gospel, but our very lives.   And so, how can we share life, whether it's pickleball, whether it's pizza? I'm running out of alliteration here. I was trying to do something else that started with P.   And for leaders who are listening, how can you take what you're already doing and make it more intergenerational? So, that's the other thing we like to tell churches is whether it's pickleball or whether it's well, we're already serving at the local homeless center to help people who are unhoused. Well, instead of that only being a youth event, maybe make that an all church event and see if adults come who can be mentoring young people.   So, you know, I love what one church did. Many churches have done this, actually, when they're looking for small group for homes where small groups can be for young people instead of going to like the parents of the teenagers. What if we go to our senior adults or our open or slash empty nesters and see if they'll open their homes?   Because then it's bringing more adults into contact with young people. And those adults who open their homes can also open their lives. So, yeah, just continuing to ask, how can we make this more of a connection across generations?   Goodness.   Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 45:39) And you have so many ideas and some of these are mentioned in this book, but you've also written many more helpful resources. So, will you give us an overview of the other books that you've authored and share a bit of what we might find if we read? Dr. Kara Powell: (45:39 - 46:42) Yeah. So, our most recent book, as you've mentioned, is Future Focus Church, and that's especially geared to help leaders know how to move a ministry from where they are now to where God wants it to be. It's been so great to journey with leaders through that.   Probably our best book that offers a ton of questions you can ask young people is Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, where we get into identity, belonging and purpose, which I mentioned. And we have over 300 questions that an adult, whether it's a family member or a mentor or a neighbor or congregant can use with young people. And then the last one I'll offer is The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family comes out of our previous Sticky Faith research.   How do you help young people have faith that lasts? We have a special chapter in that book for grandparents. So, for any grandparents who are listening, that whole book and that chapter is a great resource.   But also we have had a lot of parents, stepparents say that The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family has been one of their favorite books.   Laura Dugger: (46:43 - 47:02) That's incredible. I'll have to link to those in the show notes for today's episode. But I'm sure you're aware we are called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is anonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Dr. Kara Powell: (47:03 - 48:16) That's a really good question, Laura. OK, I'll say I'll share the first thing that came to mind when you asked it. Gosh, probably 10 or 12 years ago, I read a book and from the book I adapted a phrase for my work life and my personal life, which is if it's not a definite yes, it's a no.   As a busy mom, as a busy employee, as a busy leader, I see potential in so many things. And so, I want to say yes to so many things. And then I end up tired.   I end up empty. I end up not being able to say yes to something maybe better that comes a month later because I've already committed to, you know, plan my seventh graders camping trip or give a talk or, you know, whatever it might be. And so, that phrase, we made it a six-month experiment in the Foley Youth Institute as well as in our family.   Like it's not a definite yes, it's a no. And it really helped us say no to things, trim and I think find a much more manageable pace. So, as we pray, as we pray, it's not a definite yes, it's a no.   That's been game changing for me.   Laura Dugger: (48:17 - 48:57) Well, I love how much you've modeled applying these things at your work or in our church, but also in our family life. It's all transferable. And Kara, this has just been a super special conversation because you've been on my list to have a conversation with for over a decade, probably since I got my hands on Sticky Faith.   And I just appreciate we've been talking as we were praying before we were recording. You desire so much, not only for young people, but for all people to experience this abundant life in Christ. And I'm so grateful for you and just want to say thank you for being my guest.   Dr. Kara Powell: (48:57 - 49:03) Oh, my pleasure, Laura. And thanks to you and how you serve your audience as well as our world. It's been an honor.   Laura Dugger: (49:04 - 52:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.    Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.    We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.    That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.    This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.    Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.    And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.    First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.    You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.    And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

God deeply values the lost people, and part of his plan is to rescue us to use us to rescue them.====================

Psalm 119:67, which says, “Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep your word.”   *Transcription Below*   Doug Rumbold is a child of the living God, a loving husband to Jessica, and father to Jada, Oliver, and Pierce. Currently he is the Pastor of Counseling & Discipleship at Northfield Christian Fellowship where he has pastored since 2006. He desires for others to be transformed into Christlikeness through authentic relationships. He holds a biblical counseling certificate from CCEF, a Bachelor's in Youth Ministry/ Adolescent Studies, and a Master's of Ministry in Theology.   Connect with Doug on Instagram, Facebook, or schedule a counseling session through his website or order Doug's Book.   Presence over Pain Podcast When did you experienced your first major loss? What are the three types of suffering you see laid out in the Bible? Will you share one of your conversations with the Lord where He responded with alliteration?   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:38) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria, and Savvy Sauce Charities.   Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A, East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.    Doug Rumbold is my guest today. He is a pastor of counseling and discipleship, and he has recently written a book entitled Presence Over Pain. With Doug's biblical foundation and his sense of humor, he's now going to share some personal stories of suffering and God's continued faithfulness.   He illustrates how a yearness of God is oftentimes born through trial. So, regardless of what each of us are walking through today, Doug's going to remind us that we have the opportunity to turn toward Christ. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Doug.   Doug Rumbold: (1:39 - 1:42) It's exciting to be here, even virtually.   Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 2:02) Well, and its always kind of special to have a local friend join me as a guest on the podcast. But for those who don't know you yet, I think it would be really helpful to hear your story and gain some context around what led you to write this book. So, will you just begin by sharing your story with us?   Doug Rumbold: (2:03 - 6:09) Yeah, I love stories in general. I think when I look at Scripture, three-quarters of it, roughly, is a narrative. It's a story.   And so, God's heart for story is just critical, even in His communication of truth and His love for us. So, it means everybody's story matters. So, my little story matters.   And I think mine's an interesting one. To begin with, I was born and raised in Morton, Illinois. And I was born the seventh of eight children.   So, my parent's kind of did this, like, unbelievable quantity of births in a short amount of time. I'm not a woman, so I don't understand how this works. But I assume that having eight children in 10 years is crazy.   And they somehow managed to do that. So, I grew up in a loving Christian home. My dad was a phenomenal example of intention and direct when it came to conflict, merciful and forgiving when it needed to be called upon.   My mom was and still is somebody who she could have a conversation with anyone. I love my mom, her ability to just dive deep into conversation. I remember my college years.   My friends from college would actually love to come home to be with my parents, which is kind of odd. A bunch of college guys like, “Hey, can we come back from the big city of Chicago and go hang with your parents in the farm town?” Sure.   Yeah, enjoy. So, I grew up seventh of eight. My oldest sister passed away before I was born at the age of four.   She was actually buried on her fourth birthday, sadly. She passed away from leukemia. And then my youngest brother passed away my freshman year of college, which I talk about in the book a little bit.   So, for all of my growing up years, there were seven of us, not eight. And then the family just kind of continued to expand. Everybody eventually got married and had children.   And now on my side of the family, there's 35 grandkids. So, those are like pre-Medicaid type family backgrounds. You know, like you get together and everybody's going to take a Tylenol before because it's gonna be nice and loud and crazy.   But I would say from just a believing perspective at eight years old, I remember being in the basement of my church in Morton. My Sunday school teacher just giving a really compelling description, not just of how like, oh, you're going to burn, but more of a what does it look like to be separated from God for eternity? What might that be like?   And I was terrified but also had enough of these people pleasing mentality that I also didn't want to be the person who asked another question and held the class up. So, later on, I found out that it was easier for me to have that conversation. I think my mom discovered me kind of in tears, maybe even later that day.   And it was like, I don't think I know Jesus. And she's like, well, we can like, let's have a conversation. What's that look like?   And let's pray together. And so, at eight was when that became a reality in my life. And then really at 15 years old, coming home from a mission trip to Mexico, I ended up having just an awesome experience there and got baptized by a minister from our church.   His name was Dwayne. He was awesome. And then as I think through just, I mean, I mentioned it already, our family is really well acquainted with loss.   My oldest sister, my youngest brother, and then just some of our ongoing journey. My wife has an ongoing illness that requires a lot. It is a challenge for sure for her.   And then I think all of that kind of balls up together to frame a lot of where the content from my book comes from. Just living a life of non-ease has really kind of brought me to this place of if it's not going to go away or if it hasn't been taken away, what is it that sustains and how do I move through it and past it?   Laura Dugger: (6:09 - 6:32) And I definitely want to hear more elements of the book. But first, I'm just thinking through this. You said seven of eight and your youngest brother and you all are close in age.   So, to bring us into your story further, what age were you when you suffered that major loss of your brother and how did he pass away?   Doug Rumbold: (6:32 - 9:06) Yeah, that's a great question. So, my parents had all of us in 10 years. So, in 1969, they were married.   1970 is when they started cranking out children. And then 1980 was when my brother after me was born. And then it was 1997.   So, it's actually Halloween night of 1997. So, I was a freshman in college. I just moved away.   This was before cell phones. It's almost hard to imagine. But I was lying in my bed at night.   And my brother, my other brother, Ed, was at college with me as well as my sister, Jennifer, in the West suburbs in Elgin. And my brother tried to contact me because Ben had been in a car accident. So, he had been taking a walk with this girl he was getting to know.   And we live out in the country in Morton. So, you'll recognize these road names just because we're local. But if you know Tennessee, Tennessee and Harding, there's that intersection.   And my family grew up on Harding. But going down Tennessee Avenue, going north, a gentleman who actually ended up being our neighbor was coming over top of the hill. And he was changing a cassette tape, also a relic of the past.   And he was changing the cassette tape. And my brother was walking on the side of the road with traffic. So, his back was to oncoming traffic.   And the car struck him from behind. And he was essentially and effectively dead at the scene, but kind of for the benefit. And I will talk about this in the book a little bit.   The benefit of us, my other two siblings and I in Chicago, they, you know, rushed him straight to the hospital and then put him on life support. But he never had brain activity or anything from the moment that he arrived at the hospital till the following morning. We were asked, you know, how we wanted to continue.   And probably in the hardest decision that I've watched my dad make was to pull the power cord on life support. I mean, my dad was all about responsibility and he wasn't going to let somebody else do that. And my dad was also very quick in his ability to make a decision, even if the decision was hard.   And so, he just knew this was not, you know, technically Ben could have survived on life support. But he would have none of the vitality that he had had his entire 17 years prior. And so, that just was not an option.   Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:29) Goodness, Doug, I can't imagine that's one of those decisions you hope to never have to make as a parent. And then with your family grieving this sudden loss and then also working through forgiveness of a neighbor. What did that look like?   Doug Rumbold: (9:30 - 14:14) That's actually one of the most redeeming. I mean, again, God does this where he just kind of the Genesis 50 moment where it's like what the devil intended for harm. God meant for good.   And I remember his name was Mark. He's since passed. It happened in 97.   And I remember him coming to the door, you know, how people come to your house, and they provide condolences after a loss. And so, Ben was well known at high school. He worked with special needs children and was in the performing arts.   And so, he was just really well liked. And so, there was a high school kid. So, there's a steady stream of people coming, grieving kids, all that.   And I remember coming back from college and I remember not saying, I literally did not say a word for three days. My way of processing then was very inward. And so, I just remember being very silent.   I should correct myself. I didn't say a word other than what I'm about to tell you. Mark came to the house and Mark was in his mid-40s at the time.   And he was crushed. I mean, can you imagine what that would be like? And so, he shows up at the house.   And as he's coming up to the door, I remember my dad saying he pulls all of us kids aside. He says, “I want to tell you something. Mark is here.   He's coming up to the door. And right now, you have a choice. Forgiveness is never about how you feel.   It's about obedience. If you will forgive him now, I promise you will never struggle with bitterness toward him in this way. But it is an act of your will.   You must choose to forgive. But I'm not going to make you do so, like if you don't want to forgive him, that's fine. But I'm telling you right now, forgiveness is key.”   And I remember walking out to the door and greeting Mark and just giving him a hug and then looking at him in the eyes as a 19-year-old freshman in college and saying, “hey, Mark, I've done what you've done 100 times. You know, I've swerved off the side of the road. And so, I just want to let you know, I hold no ill will against you, and I completely forgive you.”   And he didn't really know what to say, just kind of mumbled some level of gratitude, I think. But it was kind of quiet. I had no idea the power in that moment that was happening where I was not bound to hold it against him.   And my dad was right. How many years are we removed from this? And I still had I never once thought, oh, what a jerk.   I can't believe you. I never struggled with anger toward God over the loss of my brother. These were things that I think could have happened had I held on to not being forgiven and not released Mark from that.   And probably the greater redemption happened over the years where over the next seven years, he would see my parents or my family around town, and he would always kind of hang his head. And my dad would always make it a point to say hi and to try to contact him and be kind. But Mark was just sullen, and it was difficult.   And then later on, Mark ended up having a pretty aggressive form of cancer. And by this point, my wife and I got married in January before. And I'll never forget.   We went to Carolina Beach. We lived in North Carolina at the time for just a quick getaway, the two of us. And we were coming back.   And on the drive back, I remember receiving a call from my dad and he's crying on the phone. He says, “Well, Mark just passed away.” And he goes, “but before he did, he invited your mother and I up to his hospital room.”   And when we walked in the room, he looked at me, he said, “Gary, I have I have often wondered why and how. Why would you forgive me? How did you muster the strength to do such a thing?”   And my dad, in his simplicity or whatever, was like, “Well, it's easy. I've you know, I've been forgiven. Do you know how much I've done?   Do you know what hurt I've caused other people?” And he says, “It's only natural that I should forgive you for what happened. It wasn't your intention.   Jesus forgave me. And so, I forgive you. Just real simple.”   And in that moment, Mark then began to ask what motivates. And my dad got to explain a relationship with Jesus Christ. And so, literally on his deathbed, just prior to passing, Mark turned his heart over to the Lord.   I mean, it was awesome. And so, just such a powerful story of forgiveness.   Laura Dugger: (14:16 - 19:48) And now a brief message from our sponsor. Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right.   Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University. Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia.   This online self-paced program includes 13 associates degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees and two master's programs, including an MBA. College courses are fully transferable both in and out of this program. 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We are all about sharing around here, sharing resources, sharing joy and sharing the good news about Jesus Christ.   We ask that you also will share by sharing financially, sharing The Savvy Sauce podcast episodes, and sharing a five-star rating and review. You can also share any of our social media posts on Instagram or Facebook. We are grateful for all of it, and we just love partnering together with you.   Now, back to the show. What are the three types of suffering you see laid out in the Bible?   Doug Rumbold: (19:50 - 21:29) Yeah, I'm not a theologian by any stretch, and so I'm sure I might be missing some. But I think when I look at all of Scripture, I guess I just kind of come away with three different forms of suffering. I see the first one that you kind of come across is the most poignant one is the suffering of Job.   Here's somebody who didn't do anything wrong, and he experiences catastrophic pain. So, the suffering that God allows in his sovereignty is the first form. The second one is the suffering that I caused.   Now, obviously, this is the one we first confront in Scripture, in the narrative. We see it in Genesis 3. But the story that most poignantly points this out to me is the story of David and Bathsheba.   Here's a king who has everything he needs and wants, and he should be out protecting and defending his kingdom. And instead, he's on his rooftop looking and taking what is not his. And so, there's suffering that I cause.   My pastor in college used to say, “You choose to sin, you choose to suffer.” And I think it's an apt description. And then the third form of suffering is the suffering that my faith brings.   I think about the apostles where they are called in by the council and arrested and beaten and told not to speak in the name. And what do they do? They walk out rejoicing, like, yes, we've been counted worthy to suffer.   Like, yeah, that's so different than the American version of Christianity at the present moment. We don't necessarily think that way. So, in short order, the suffering that God allows in his sovereignty, the suffering I cause in my sin, and the suffering my faith brings with persecution would be the three.   Laura Dugger: (21:30 - 21:42) Well, and I loved one of your quotes where you write, the earnest desire of my heart is that you come to understand the presence of God in and through suffering, no matter its cause.   Doug Rumbold: (21:43 - 22:03) Well, when I think about that, think of your own life, Laura. When you go back through ever since you just you surrendered your heart to Jesus, can you point to where were the deepest learning moments for you? What do you think? How would you answer that question?   Laura Dugger: (22:04 - 22:26) I do feel like I may be an anomaly here because some of it is from those seasons of grief or searing loss. But also, I would say in the really good times, the gratitude and joy that he provides, those have been some of my greatest leaps in faith.   Doug Rumbold: (22:28 - 24:32) Yeah, I think that's huge. I think it's one of those reasons why you see in Scripture this idea of we're supposed to be people who are thanking God even through our suffering. I think it's that rhythm or that habit of gratitude that can transform even what may appear hard or difficult.   In the book, that quote that you just read, I think comes from this idea that God communicates his presence to us in different ways because of the form of suffering or hardship that we're facing. If I'm somebody who is suffering because of what God has allowed, I look at the idea of our daughter with cancer, for example, and I think, okay, the hardship that she faced, it would not make sense for her to frame her life and her hardship with suffering in terms of confession and forgiveness of sin. She didn't sin to get sick.   And so, the idea of how God's going to communicate his presence to her in the suffering that he allows is more about what does it mean to endure with patience and joy? How does she endure hardship with patience and joy? In those ways, in that way, rather, I think that's how God begins to communicate his presence to her.   His nearness to her means he's not far because something is wrong with her and she needs to be discarded. It's more that he is quite near, and it's the recognition of that. It's this like my heart can be glossed over by the pain I'm facing, whether God allows it, I cause it, or my faith brings it.   It can be glossed over if I have an inward curve, if I have like this inward turn of sin and I can miss. How does God want to communicate his presence to me through this? I think that overall, most of us focus more on the suffering that we're experiencing at times than we do on God's provided presence.   Laura Dugger: (24:33 - 24:54) And that reminds me of something else where you later write about Psalm 119:67, which says, “Before I was afflicted, I went astray, but now I keep your word.” So, Doug, how did you experience the truth of this scripture through your experience with your daughter Jada?   Doug Rumbold: (24:56 - 27:57) Yeah, I think probably the safest and quickest description is pain has a way of getting our attention. Like your toe is just fine when you're walking to the kitchen at 2:00 a.m. to grab a drink of water and go back to bed. And then your toe makes its presence known when you kick the chair, right?   And you're like, oh, and then you're acutely aware of it. You know, you go back to bed and it's throbbing. You might put some ice on it.   Now it's cold. And pain is like that where it gets my attention when it's hit. And so, I was not aware, I don't think, of the depth of my self-reliance until every bit of control was removed from me.   So, particularly when I think of Jada's challenge, you know that before I was afflicted, I went astray, but now I keep your word. There's this mercy in suffering that says ever so slightly, we are people who easily turn to ourselves and our resources before we will turn to God. My wife would say it this way, and I agree with her.   I think it's an excellent understanding of parenting. We both view parenting as a form of stewardship. So, if I get paid, which I do, you know, for my work as a pastor, I get paid, I steward that money.   It's not my money. The Lord owns the cattle on a thousand hills, right? So, if he owns everything, he owns even the finances that are put into my back pocket.   And the way that I steward it is the degree to which I am surrendered to him. And so, parenting is like that. God has given you the currency of children, and you have children that you are to steward back to God as an offering to him.   And my wife would say this, I just didn't know. I'm supposed to lay them down every day before the feet of God in full reliance and trust that he is a better parent than I will ever be. What happened in particular with our daughter showed how quickly we will take them back again, how quickly we will be people who will say, “Oh, well, I actually think I can make a better decision here than the Lord will.”   We would never say that out loud, but our control and our actions will illustrate that every day. It's one of the reasons why it's so easy to get offended when your kid sins against you. It's one of the reasons why it's so easy to be overwhelmed when your kid is far from you.   We can get to a place where though we are to steward our children back to God, like finances given to us, like children given to us, there's this idea we are supposed to be stewards. And so, I learned that I went astray from God. And I still do every day.   It's a thousand opportunities to return to him. Does that make sense or am I talking crazy?   Laura Dugger: (27:58 - 28:24) No, that makes that makes sense. And even I think you're talking about something probably a lot of us are relating to as parents of certain times where we really grasp we are not in control. So, will you even take us to that day where that first became a realization for you? Because you're a parent of I believe she was a five-year-old at the time. Is that right?   Doug Rumbold: (28:25 - 37:11) Yes, that day was awful. I would never want to repeat it. Jessica had it's not really a day, but a kind of a progression from kind of like a Thanksgiving time frame until January.   So, the short order is my wife was pregnant with our youngest and her date for delivery was supposed to be right after January 1st, because I remember thinking, are you kidding me? I'm going to miss the cutoff for claiming this dependent. And anyway, Thanksgiving, we had gone down to visit some dear friends of ours.   So, a shout out to John and Katrina. I'm sure they'll listen to this who live in Oklahoma. It's where I did my internship in college on like this orphan boys ranch.   It was awesome. I loved it and grew a great friendship with them. So, we were down there visiting them.   And my wife has this gallbladder attack. And the way she describes it, she felt like she was dying. And of course, she didn't wake me up because, you know, women can apparently experience pain and not make a big deal of it.   Men, that doesn't work. So, there's definitely a gender difference there. And so, she realizes as she's homeschooling Jada, this is not tenable.   I can't keep this up, especially if I'm going to have a child and everything. And so, we decided, oh, no big deal. We'll have just come back from our trip and decided we were going to put Jada in public school just for the last part of kindergarten.   And Jessica was going to give birth to the child and hopefully get the treatment that she needed because we took an ultrasound, and they discovered a bunch of gallstones. And it was rough. And so, we get back, and we go to the school, get the forms.   And basically, it was just filling out a couple of forms. Oh, yes. A bunch of check marks here, and a bunch of check marks there.   Get the dental form and all that. You need one last thing that we can't just sign away. You need to do a quick physical.   Now, Jada was feeling great doing everything. You know, all of her markers were fine. We go to a doctor from our church at the Tremont Medical Clinic and he performed just a simple physical.   And Jada was, you know, everything was just fine. And as he's palpating around her stomach, he's just kind of pressing there. And I don't know how doctors do this where they, you know, press on your stomach and they're like, OK, your organs are in the right place.   OK, I trust you. So, his face, like his countenance, just shifted. And Jessica and I were both in the room and he just kind of looks at me because I just can't reconcile this.   But to rule anything out, we're just going to have her get an ultrasound and be on our way. I remember thinking I had a hernia when I was young, maybe six months or something. I can't remember how old I was.   And so, Jessica and I went home that night and I mean, we were shedding tears like, oh, my goodness. Our sweet daughter has a hernia. Can't believe it.   What does this mean? She's going to have surgery, all this stuff. And never were we prepared for what happened next.   You know, the next morning she wakes up, and she takes Jada and Oliver, who's two at the time, to get the ultrasound in Peoria at a place called Peoria Imaging. And I stayed home. I was writing a sermon.   So, I'm sitting there working on a sermon from Mark, Chapter eight. And Jessica goes and I'm not hearing from her. I'm not hearing from her.   And then about three hours later, I got a call and she's like, so, they did an ultrasound and then they did like another one. And then they ordered a CT, and they just got done with the CT. And she goes and I just looked out in the waiting room and it's full and nobody's coming in.   And now they said that she needs an MRI. And I'm like, “What?” This doesn't seem like a hernia.   And she said, “Honey, I just asked the nurse, and they won't commit.” “Like they won't say anything,” I asked.   I kept asking if it's a hernia. And finally, I just asked one of the nurses, “Is it bad?” And the nurse said, “That she thinks it's significant.”   And I'm like, oh. And I remember that day then calling my dad or my parents and just kind of giving them updates along the way. Like, okay, you know, Jay is going in for a quick ultrasound, probably a hernia.   But then I remember calling my dad and my dad's on the phone with me right after I got off with Jess. And I just said, “So, it went from just a quick ultrasound to CT to an MRI.” And I said, “They just finished the MRI or they're in process.”   And they said, “That after the MRI, they want to send her to the hospital for blood work.” And my dad's only response was, “Oh, boy. I mean, it was just like,” and his voice quivered.   You know, the quiver of like the I don't know if I'm ready for this sort of quiver. And I can only imagine what's going through his head, having already lost two children and particularly one to cancer. He knows that feeling.   So, the day only got longer from there. I got a ride over there with my sister-in-law to Puri Imaging. And then we went to the hospital together and had to get blood drawn and all that stuff.   And that's a whole story in and of itself, the trauma of that for her. But I remember leaving the hospital and Jessica and I know at this point with the full weight of this is not a hernia, but we still don't have answers. Like every time I'm asking a question to a doctor or a nurse, they are deferring and deferring and deferring.   And my anger internally is kind of growing. And so, I'm a little, I'm not aggressive, but I'm assertive. And I remember driving away from OSF in Peoria.   And as we're driving away, Jade is just in the back seat looking out the window. And Jessica and I are in the front seat, just crying, but trying to hold it together, you know. And I look in my rearview mirror.   I'm like, “Hey, sweetie.” And she's like, “Yeah.” “Like, what are you thinking about?”   She goes well. I just can't decide what smoothie I want at Smoothie King. That was the day where they, you know, the scan that she had to have was an NPO, which means she can't have any food or liquid unless it's clear.   And so, she was starving. And at this point it was like 6:30 at night. So, she's super hungry.   And so, we went to the first location and the second location. They were all closed between Christmas and New Year's. So, no Smoothie King for her.   And that was the last time we remember eating at McDonald's as a family. And then that night the diagnosis finally came. We got back home.   We were home for 10 minutes. And we received a call from what ended up being her surgeon from Illinois Medical Clinic. And we were asked to come back into an after-hours appointment, which those are never good.   And so, we walk in the door. We sit down. There's not even a secretary.   The lights in the building are off. We were walking down this hallway to this last, you know, exam room. And Jada is just sitting there on the table.   Jessica is about ready to pop pregnancy-wise. And the doctor walks in and says, so, I assume you know why you're here. And I said, actually, we haven't been able to get a straight answer.   And we have no idea what's happening. And she goes, are you kidding me? She's like, I have to be the one to tell you this, that your daughter has kidney cancer.   And I think the thing that caught me was Jessica sitting on a chair kind of at the foot of the exam table. And instinctively, I mean, it was like it wasn't even – it was no coaching. There was no – Jada just kind of crumbled and her body just kind of fell onto Jess.   And Jess's mom has walked through cancer twice. And so, Jessica has lived this journey as well, just the difficulty of it. And so, for her, she's just like I know what this required of me when my mom had it.   And I had to take care of her when I was in junior high and then again when I was in college. And now I'm pregnant and now my daughter has cancer. It was unreal.   And then I wrote about it in the book, but the walk from the front door to the van where Jada's face was buried in my neck. And the warmth of her tears and just her body just kind of melted into mine as we're walking back to the van. And it's like I never want to forget that because the usefulness of it, how helpful it is for me to recall some things, to live in that place of like this is what you redeem, this is what you restore.   But it was hard as heck. And so, that would be what I remember from the day of diagnosis.   Laura Dugger: (37:13 - 37:26) It is so hard to imagine what that would look like to get that news. And I'm just wondering for you and Jess, what did your faith look like and what were your conversations like with the Lord at that point?   Doug Rumbold: (37:29 - 39:10) You know, I – because of the loss of my brother earlier, I don't – I mean that's a great question. And I don't mean this how it might sound or come across, but my faith was never – I don't think that my faith was an issue in terms of am I still going to cling to Jesus. It was just more of a – it was just – it was so hard.   I really wish I had words for it. I talk about this in another podcast that I did. I remember just feeling so overwhelmed and more of a feeling like we were treading water in the middle of an ocean.   And someone – you're like begging for a life raft and they hand you a cinder block. And you're like, not helpful. So, my faith, our conversations with the Lord, they were hard, and we were certainly super sad.   My wife would probably talk about how she was broken and quiet and learning afresh what it means to surrender. But she is methodical and consistent in her pursuit of the Lord and extremely faithful. And so, hers was sitting in solitude and just waiting and cry and lament and work through it all and then come out the other side stronger.   I process things a little bit more verbally. But I think our faith was strong. We were just shattered for the pain that she was experiencing for sure.   Laura Dugger: (39:11 - 39:35) That's a great way of putting it. And just like He promises, I have spoken – Mark and I have talked with you and Jess before. And you've shared how God continued to be an ever-present help in these times of trouble.   But will you share one of your conversations with the Lord where he responded to you with alliteration?   Doug Rumbold: (39:35 - 45:50) Yeah, the one that I think of is – and I write about it a little bit in my book. But I just remember thinking kind of two questions that I would ask. One was right after Pierce was born and we obviously weren't having any sleep.   So, if you look at the timeline, Jada was diagnosed on the 30th of December. The 2nd of January was Jessica and my anniversary. The 3rd was Jada's surgery.   The 10th was when her pathology came back. And the diagnosis went from 95, 98% cure rate, survival rate just fine to like 40 to 60% survival rate. And a different stage of cancer and the size of the tumor was much larger than they originally anticipated.   And so, we came home that night from the pathology report and wept and wept and wept. And then Jessica started labor that night. And it was a blizzard.   Our midwife didn't make the birth. And then Pierce is born on the morning of the 11th, which is the same morning that Jada and I were supposed to go back in now to have more MRIs, more blood work to determine had the cancer metastasized throughout her whole body instead of just in that one tumor. And it was assumed that it had and so, that's why they were checking everything.   And so, it was an urgent, you need to get there for this. I just kind of felt like the one question, one of two questions I was asking, but one of them was with conversation with the Lord was when will you relent? Won't you just relent?   So, I was never like struggling in my faith to the degree that I was going to toss it, but I was angry with God. I was like, come on, like, how does this work? Can you give, throw me a bone, basically.   So, that was one conversation. But the conversation that's most poignant is after he started to frame those things up a little bit and give more of a trellis to build on. I remember treatment had begun, which timeline, if you're looking at it, the 11th is when Pierce is born.   The 13th is when Jada started treatment. So, from like the 13th to the 18th, she had radiation. And then after that, for the rest of the year, eight months, whatever, she had chemo.   I remember one morning I never slept at the hospital. It was just not comfortable. It was always beeping, stuff like that.   So, I would often go down to the playroom. There's an activity room at the end of the hall on the sixth floor there at OSF. And I'd be down there with a lackluster cup of coffee and my Bible and journal.   And I'd watch the sunrise over the city of Peoria. And it would just be kind of like; I really couldn't hardly read. It would be more of me just like, because no one was awake.   That was the only time when it was semi quiet. And I would just have these out loud conversations with the Lord. Like, what's happening?   And the conversation, the question that I kept asking was, Lord, how in the world are we going to do this? How in the world are we going to make it through? That's really when he began to kind of press back in.   And I'm not, I don't know how to explain this, but more of a, I had a very tangible sense that as I'm sitting there on the sixth floor, that he was almost in the chair next to me. And he's just, he's like, okay, tell me more about your struggle. What's it like?   Help me to understand the pain of your heart. And so, I'm, I'm unloading these things to Him. And all of a sudden I noticed the time and it's like, oh, Jada is going to be waking up soon.   I need to get back there before they do rounds, you know, and the whole dance starts again. And so, I kind of like, oh, I want to return. It's like when you wake up from a dream and you're like, oh no, I want to finish the dream.   And you try to go back to sleep quickly. That's a little bit of how that conversation was working out. And I remember going back to the room and jotting a few more things down in my journal.   And then after that it goes, okay. The day was now full of motion. And I had forgotten about the conversation quite honestly.   And until that evening, I was like, okay, I'm just gonna, I told Jada, I'm like, “Honey, I'm going to run home real quick and shower, get a change of clothes and maybe get some real food. And then I'll be back. Okay.”   Don't worry. And so, I hopped in my car, I turned on my headlights, and I got out of the parking garage, and I got on 74. And right as I was getting on the bridge to cross over the Illinois to go back toward Tremont, it was, I mean, I don't know how people feel about this.   So, sorry if I start a theological controversy on your podcast, but, um, I, as I'm sitting there as audible as you and I talking back and forth, there's this sense of my spirit of like, you asked how you're going to get through Christ community and confession. But there was really beyond that, there was really no discussion. You know, it was more just like those three words got tossed out.   And so, I remember driving down the highway and almost like, uh, you're in a zone where it's like, you see the headlights, you know, going like right past you and, and nothing is distracting to me. And I remember thinking some of those things made sense to me, like, you know, yes, Christ suffered. Yes.   I need community around me, things like that. But confession was the one that I struggled with the most. Like what do you mean by that?   You know, because I had a courtroom idea of confession, like, okay, I got caught doing something I shouldn't have. I need to confess. What I did was wrong.   And there definitely is that element. But I came to learn later that confession is the Hebrew word. One of the Hebrew words for it actually means praise.   And so, there's this, there's this idea of caught up, being caught up in understanding the presence of God and you're confessing. It's the word that actually, more accurately, fits is declaration. And so, I'm like, oh, wow.   Okay. So, what you're saying then is these scriptures that I've been studying for years now, I I'm actually, it's about declaring them in praise over my life, over my circumstances, over my daughter as a way of help to get us through. Okay.   Laura Dugger: (45:51 - 47:09) By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living. When you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes, as you read through the transcriptions, because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them.   We heard all of that and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website.   Happy reading. And I just want to go back to something that you said, because you use the word relent. God, how long until you relent?   And yet he flipped that word and taught you that he will relentlessly continue to pursue you with his presence.   Doug Rumbold: (47:10 - 49:26) I'm glad that you draw that out because I think the relentless pursuit is in that question of when will you relent? It was one of our darker moments, even in marriage where my wife and I were both stretched to the max, totally thin and struggling. And it was an argument, you know, where I'm lying on the ground after my wife and I had just kind of like, I need you to take care of this.   And she's asking me to take care of something I'm not wanting to, and I'm holding my ground and I'm tired. She's tired. And aren't your best moments between midnight and 7am anyway?   And so, I remember laying on the ground. That moment was laying on the ground at the foot of my son's crib in our bedroom. And he was not sleeping.   He's a newborn. Newborns don't sleep easily. And I remember pounding the ground and actually saying, you know, when, when will you relent God?   Like when will you let up? And to see the connection between my question was the assumption that God had left the building that God had kind of punched the clock. Okay.   I'll be back by five. You know, like when instead, the way that He wants to communicate His presence to me in my suffering shows that He's relentlessly digging through every bit of self-reliance that I've set up to try to manufacture outcomes. And so, there, there's a way that His relentless presence is like, like waves on a shore one after the other, the rhythmic nature of it, the dependable nature of it, you can't stop it.   Nature of it is the way that He can and will use any circumstance trial in your life to communicate His presence to you. So, yeah, that's right. Its relenting is a releasing and letting go, but relentless pursuit is also this like dogged pursuit of us.   it's been said before that, that God or Christ is the hound of heaven, you know, like a blood hound with your scent who won't give up until He finds you. And so, similar to our experience for sure.   Laura Dugger: (49:27 - 50:00) Well, and you go into these stories and then also offer hope and offer so much scripture where you have poured over to help us make sense of suffering. And even see things where it's a very upside-down economy as God often has, where there's blessing in the affliction, but yet to close the loop on this story. Can you give us a picture of where your family is at today? Even the ages of your children and Jada's status?   Doug Rumbold: (50:01 - 52:27) Yeah, for sure. So, it's been a long journey for sure. Jada now is 18 and we are in preparation for her.   She is going to be going to Arizona Christian University in the fall. So, a nice short 24-hour drive away. And so, again, we're learning afresh what it looks like to lay down our children, but we're super excited about it.   We are super excited about the new friends she'll make. My wife and I have always said Jada is a spread your wings and fly sort of girl and cancer only proved that. So, we're super excited about that for her.   Our son, Oliver, who was two at the time, is now 14 where he's a freshman. He turns 15 this summer and I'm sure we'll be driving soon after. No concerns there.   And then my son, Pierce, is in sixth grade. And yeah, they all have their own interest's kind of across the board. Jada loves music and singing and playing piano.    Oliver is relationally. He's just this guy who enjoys mature conversation. So, like when we get together with our life group, you'll find him talking to the adult men just because he fits there. He's more of an old soul.   Pierce is our creative kid. He's always doing trick shots. And I mean, it's pretty crazy the stuff that he does. He's kind of fun like that and loves fishing and things of this nature.    So, yeah, all of my kids are very interesting and different like that. My wife is doing homeschooling for the boys, and she continues to be somebody who is a silent influencer in the lives of many, usually and primarily through prayer.   But I am amazed at how often the Lord uses her in the lives of other people to bring about change and transformation. She's just an excellent gifted counselor of people with the word of God and prayer. So, that's kind of where our family's at.   I've been at the time that Jada was ill, I was the youth pastor at Northfield and I'm still at Northfield though. I'm in a different role. I'm pastor of counseling and discipleship here at Northfield.   So, I have never left this community. So, I'm trying to think if there's anything else update wise. I don't think so.   I think it's pretty much it.   Laura Dugger: (52:27 - 52:30) And so, Jada is in remission.   Doug Rumbold: (52:30 - 55:11) Yes. She did have one other occurrence where she started having really acute headaches in 2013. Then, those acute headaches turned into taking her back for a checkup and the checkup revealed a lesion on her frontal lobe. So, a brain tumor.   We had to wait eight weeks to scan again. Those eight weeks were the hardest and worst that I think we've faced even from the first cancer. It was like, “Oh my goodness, we're going to have to go through this again.”   And then we had this season of waiting, you know, the eight weeks and then she was going back in for another scan to determine scope and growth. Also, you know, what type of craniotomy or brain surgery they were going to perform, to address it or whether it was going to be treated medically. Or how was that going to happen? And so, that all took place. Then, they did the scan, and we had to wait.   Normally we would have these scans, and it would be like a four-to-eight-hour turnaround. And you know that same day or even the next day we get a call from the St. Jude office, and they would say all clear. This one went one day, that was two days.   And I called and they said, “Oh, well, you know, the doctor will call you.” And I'm like, “Come on Beth.” You know, she was the head nurse that I've had relationship with for a while.   And she's like, “No, you know, the doctor will tell you.” And I'm like, “That's never good.” And come to find out, we had to wait until the end of that week.   So, it was not one day, not two days, not three days, not four days, but five. So, it went from Monday to Friday. And on Friday, the doctor called me after hours.   And I thought for sure it was, you know, here we go treatment time. And, um, she called back and said, the reason it's taken so long is because I had to have conference calls with, uh, Memphis, DC, LA, all these different cancer centers and looking at the imaging together. But when, when we laid the last image that shows the lesion over the newest one, the newest one shows nothing like it's completely gone.   And she goes, and it's definitely here. It's definitely something that requires intervention. And now it doesn't.   And so, she goes, I just wanted to confirm the anomaly. I'm like, that's not an anomaly. That's a healing.   And so, uh, Jada has been in remission, ever since. So, she's been, she's been doing good. In fact, her last cancer follow-up appointment was like three weeks ago and got the all clear.   So, praise God.   Laura Dugger: (55:11 - 55:44) Praise God. What an awesome, miraculous healing. I'm so thankful you shared that and really Doug with your unique career that you're in and the journey that you and Jess have been through and your love of scripture, you're putting all of this together and it really is such a gift, this book that you've written.   So, can you tell us just a little bit more of who this book is for and what people could expect to find when they read it?   Doug Rumbold: (55:45 - 57:54) Yeah. So, the book is for anyone because, and you would know this as well, but you're either heading into a trial, you're in the middle of a trial or you're on the backside of a trial. And there's never a moment in which you can say, “Oh, okay, well now I've learned and now I've arrived and now we're good.”   I do think that the preparation of our heart for trial is critical because it's going to come like we are going to face suffering of some form at some point. And so, it's good to know how to approach it. It's for anybody who wants to learn and grow and be encouraged.   But specifically, one of the things that I struggled with during our trial, and it's ongoing, you know, because of some of the stuff that we mentioned before ongoing health issues in our family and stuff like that. But I, what I found was people would be like, “Oh, here's a book.” It's only 320 pages on suffering.   I'm like, really? Thanks for that. I've got no capacity to do that.   So, I purposely wanted to write a book that you could personally sit and read like in an afternoon. It's so, it's short. It's like, you know, a hundred pages and it's digestible.   So, you could jump from one chapter to the eighth chapter if you wanted, and you would, you would still hopefully gain something. So, I wanted to make it uniquely accessible and heart focused. So, you'll find kind of like throughout the chapters, I have these like, so, truth to life.   And what I'm basically doing is trying to say, “Okay, we talked about something at a 30,000-foot view. What does it look like boots on the ground here?” I don't usually just spell it out for you.   I usually ask questions that are going to force you to address heart issues because scripture is pretty clear that all of our conduct flows from a heart that's filled with good or bad. So, people can expect to be challenged. They can expect to not have something that's too long and too hard to read, but they can also expect to find it kind of built around story a little bit.   That's one of the reasons why I use those different stories from scripture. I think we relate well and explain things well in a story.   Laura Dugger: (57:55 - 58:14) Definitely agree. We learn so much from Jesus's stories. Those stick with us and yours do too.   So, thank you for sharing all of those today. And if anyone desires more help and healing after today's conversation, where would you direct them?   Doug Rumbold: (58:15 - 59:59) The first thing that I would do is just encourage prayer. The idea of silence and solitude is where you can be begun to become aware of the healing that you may need and being able to just journal it down and have it right in front of you. That is probably one of the first steps.   Second thing I would say is to lean into community. COVID has kind of wrecked things in some ways where some people have gotten used to this idea of either online attendance or whatever. Nothing, nothing, nothing replaces the body of Christ in the tangible way.   And so, the idea of being with and around other like-minded believers is critical. But in terms of myself, the book that I wrote, it's available on Walmart, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. You can just search Presence Over Pain in a search engine and find it pretty easily.   I am currently in the works of working through like an audio version of it because some people prefer that. So, that will be forthcoming. You can find me on Facebook or Instagram.   I provide biblical counseling in person or virtually so, people can contact me through those platforms if they want to have a conversation. And the cool thing is those things happen. There's a number of different connections that God has made where people have either read the book or they know someone who read the book and my name was recommended and here I am a couple of months later having a conversation with someone who found me online.   And I love technology for that purpose. How can we come together and build around something in Christ? It's pretty awesome.   Laura Dugger: (59:59 - 1:00:31) That is awesome. And we will certainly add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. In addition to the link to your own podcast where you dig a little bit deeper into the book.   And the name of that is also Presence Over Pain podcast. And Doug, you know that our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Doug Rumbold: (1:00:32 - 1:04:48) I love the question because practical is helpful. So, I think probably just some brief stories and then a couple of suggestions. So, I remember when I was younger, all seven of us children kind of growing up in the same house.   My dad had such a passion for us to know the word of God that he wanted us to all like sit down at the same time. And he was going to read a chapter of Proverbs. Well, can you imagine seven kids on a Tuesday morning trying to get ready for school?   And then your father saying, “Okay, everybody sit down.” Like nobody's going to be able to do that. And so, after a few failed attempts, what my dad did was he would, he would have a section that he was going to read, and he would start with the oldest child, and he would follow them around literally like follow them.   And he would just, he would read the word of God to them and then he would move to the next one and to the next one and to the next one and the next one. And I have memories of like even walking out the door, going to get on the bus and my dad following me right up to the door, reading the last bit of Proverbs to us. And so, practically speaking, you really cannot underestimate the value of intentionally diving into God's word daily personally.   Like don't let somebody else do it for you. It's so, personal. It's so, needed.   And just when you feel like it's not going to matter, the fruit of it will come forth. So, that's, that's one. And then the other story that kind of points to a practical reality is my wife grew up through her parents splitting up when she was, I think, second or third grade.   And just the difficulty of that, like the life of a single mom as she and her sister watched her mom go through that. But Jessica tells a story often of like not understanding and now understanding, but like she would knock on her mom's door and she would hear her mom crying and she would, she'd open the door and her mom would be face down on the floor, just, just praying and weeping. And she's like, hold on, honey.   Mommy just needs to be with Jesus. And it communicated this idea. And my wife has carried this on in our own family and in her practice of just like prayer and particularly prayers of lament are huge.   And so, practically speaking, what's that look like? I mean, I have an exercise. I'm sure you are being a counselor by nature would, would appreciate this.   But one of the things that you can do to learn how to lament is to look at a good number of the Psalms are lament Psalms. Like they're sad Psalms. Like Lord, my life stinks.   The wheels have fallen off and you're nowhere to be found. So, being honest with God is critical, but a simple assignment would be to read a lament Psalm, like Psalm 13 or Psalm 88 or Psalm 77, Psalm 42, any of those. And then as you read that Psalm, just the simple assignment is to like write your own Psalm of lament and then read it back to the Lord. You know, Lord, I felt like you were absent when my daughter was diagnosed with cancer, but I am going to trust in your unfailing love.   Like you see those pictures all throughout the Psalm. So, that's a practical, simple way to engage God. I think the last thing that I would say in terms of practical is the idea of rest from a perspective, you know, biblically it's called Sabbath.   Do you have a 24-hour period of rest? Because what you do when you Sabbath is you say something to God and to everyone else. It doesn't depend on me.   When I choose to rest, I'm choosing not to be productive. I'm choosing not to perform. I'm choosing only to receive.   I'm choosing to rest. I'm choosing to fall back into his arms. Rhythmically reminding ourselves of that for me, the way that that works out is like, you know, I'm a pastor.   So, Sundays are a workday. So, once I get home after Sunday until like noon, the following day is the time when it's like, okay, this is where I'm not going to be on my screen. I'm going to take a walk with the family.   We're going to have dinner together. Things that are filling and receiving are critically helpful. And I would say savvy.   Laura Dugger: (1:04:49 - 1:05:08) That's so good. And Doug, Mark and I are just so grateful to know you and Jess. We learn from both of you, and we've learned from your stories. They've been so impactful today.   So, thank you for writing this resource and thank you for being my guest today.   Doug Rumbold: (1:05:09 - 1:05:11) It was a total pleasure. Thank you for having me on.   Laura Dugger: (1:05:12 - 1:08:54) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to im

Mark 2:27 NIV "Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."   *DISCLAIMER* This episode contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.   *Transcription Below*   Emily MacLeod-Wolfe is a Nurse Practitioner wellness professional with a passion for helping individuals achieve their health goals in a holistic and practical way.   With 5 years of invaluable experience in the field, Emily has developed a deep understanding of the importance of a balanced lifestyle for a vibrant life.   Emily firmly believes in treating the whole person, not just the symptoms, and takes a comprehensive approach to healthcare. She learned these from her own personal experience of dealing with Hashitmotos thyroiditis and eczema and found the root causes to treat them naturally. She is passionate to help others with the personal knowledge and health freedom she has received.   By combining her medical expertise with a focus on nutrition, exercise, and mindfulness, she empowers her clients to take control of their health and make sustainable lifestyle changes.   With a warm and empathetic demeanor, Emily creates a safe and supportive environment where clients feel heard and understood. She works closely with each individual to develop personalized wellness plans that are tailored to their unique needs and circumstances. Whether you're looking to improve your physical fitness, manage stress, or simply lead a healthier life, Emily is dedicated to guiding, encouraging & supporting you on your wellness journey.   Emily's Website   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you give us an intro lesson for hormones 101? Is it normal to have really painful and heavy menstrual cycles or is that an indicator that something is not right? What are the best practices you recommend for women to support healthy hormones and healthy adrenals in their body all month long?   Thank you to our sponsor: Leman Property Management   Episode Mentioned Today: 256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Podcast: 81. Sacred Rest with Doctor, Wife, Mother, and Author, Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith 167. Pursuing Health in Four Key Areas with Debra Fileta 205. Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness) Hormones and Simple Changes to Feel SO Much Better with Functional Medicine Expert, Dr. Jill Carnahan Practicing Sabbath with Shireen Eldridge Special Patreon Re-release: Out of the Box Stress Relievers to Apply Today with Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith 215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen 216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen 217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler   Connect with us through The Savvy Sauce Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:12)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:29)  Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.    Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com, or connect with them on Facebook.    Emily McLeod-Wolfe is my returning guest for today. Last time we talked about everything related to gut health, and I'll make sure to link that episode in the show notes for today's episode. I would highly recommend that you begin there, because there's a lot of overlap with solutions, as then we transition today into our topic about female hormones, the menstruation cycle, and how to make everything better, and even end up grateful to God for our female cycle.   Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Emily.   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (1:30 - 1:34) Thank you so much for having me again, Laura. I'm so excited about this section.   Laura Dugger: (1:35 - 1:40) Yes, can you just give us a brief reminder of the work that you get to do before we dive in?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (1:41 - 2:08) Yes. I am a holistic nurse practitioner. I was trained traditionally in traditional medicine at Vanderbilt, and then I went on to do ... Well, from my own personal health journey, I knew I wanted to do more holistic medicine, so I went on and did functional medicine, natural medicine training, so, now I have a practice called Pure Integrative Health, which is to blend the best of both worlds, and to basically to root cause medicine.   Laura Dugger: (2:08 - 2:19) Well, and we covered all things gut health last time, but I've been so excited to interview you about hormones, so as best as you can, could you just give us Hormones 101?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (2:21 - 3:02)  Yeah, yeah. And first of all, if you didn't hear the last episode, I would recommend go back to listen to the previous one, because the gut health is the precursor that builds to the hormones, and I don't recommend even trying to address the hormones unless you've got some of the gut healing going, because they are so interconnected, even in the way in which we don't want to be recycling hormones, so constipation is causing an excess hormone recycling that should not be happening. So, again, healthy gut health is going to help the hormones, but yes. So, for women, or for men, or what hormones would you like me to describe?   Laura Dugger: (3:02 - 3:11) I think we're just going to focus on women's hormones today, because I want to get more into our cycle as well.    Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (3:11 - 10:59) Oh, great question. Yeah. Okay. So, for women, we have the sex hormones, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, not nearly as high levels of testosterone as men, they can be highly driven off of it. If the testosterone is too high in women, then we look at things like PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, excess androgen, so it could be like abnormal hair growth, extra oily skin, acne, those are some signs of like maybe high testosterone, but also could be from high cortisol, which is the stress hormone that's made in the adrenal glands that sits on top of the kidneys and produces stress hormone.   Now we'll explain how the adrenals and the stress hormone cortisol affect some of the sex hormones, but those ones, and then there's one called DHEA, and that is the precursor hormone to testosterone. So, we've got estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, DHEA, pregnenolone is like the master hormone in which all the hormones can be made out of, and the cholesterol actually funnels into pregnenolone. So, our cholesterol is necessary, we do need good cholesterol to help all the hormones, so, yes, that's why good healthy fats and things like that are really helpful, like olive oil and avocado and baking, broiling and grilling things and all of that, the cholesterol, pregnenolone master hormone, we got DHEA, which is the precursor to testosterone.   And then testosterone can be the hormone that converts into estrogen, so, they're all connected, they're all very connected, so excess estrogen could be from too high testosterone. Anyhow, they're all over the place sometimes for women, and they do fluctuate just even within 28 days, so I'll kind of explain that, and then we can kind of go from there. So, we talked about cortisol, there's a lot of other hormones, but I was just telling you about the sex hormones, so that's necessary to understand a cycle of a woman.   So, when we start cycling, and then we have a couple different phases, we have the follicular phase, which is the first, day one is the day you start bleeding, and then day 14 is typically the day that we ovulate. So, day one, we have, estrogen starts to increase, we've kind of bottomed out, usually on our cycle, most women feel a little bit lower energy, I mean, we're bleeding and menstruating, and so some women lose a lot of iron, and ferritin levels can go down a lot during that, so we want to eat very iron-rich, lots of leafy greens, vegetables, good healthy fats to support. I kind of describe each week of our cycle, almost like a season, it's like winter is the first seven days of the bleeding, and then we've got spring, but then we start to feel really good, and everything is good, and then we've got summer, and we're doing great, and then we've got fall, and so we can kind of eat accordingly to, almost seasonally for the hormones, too.   So, we've got the first seven days, lower energy, because estrogen and progesterone are pretty bottomed out, but they start to gradually increase. Now estrogen really starts to increase, and then right around day 14, it comes down, and then progesterone takes over, and so right there is the ovulation, and that's where the ovaries will release an egg, and has the opportunity to be fertilized or not in the middle of the month, and it all very much interconnects with our moods and how we're feeling, and people have heard of PMS, premenstrual syndrome, you felt the hormonal changes and all of that, but there's definitely ways that we can kind of mitigate the extreme highs and lows, like some people deal with depression-like feelings and really big mood swings, we can work on leveling those things more so that they're not so drastic through certain things I'll describe, but anyhow, we've got follicular phase, estrogen, we've got the luteal phase, we've got ovulation, then we've got the luteal phase is where progesterone is really increasing and decreasing, and that's days 14 to 28 of the cycle. So, we've got first phase and second phase. And two, we can break it down even more to four weeks.    We've got like the first week, lower energy, but that's like, you can even connect it to emotions and how, like, maximizing efficiency for work based off of your cycle. Because even, you're not supposed to make a really big life decision during the menstruating week, because that's just low energy and all that. But it's a good time to dream, brainstorm, hopefully you're taking time to rest, take care of your body, have some salt baths, rich in magnesium, eating those good foods, giving nutrients, if your body needs, you get your iron levels checked and your ferritin levels. Your practitioner might give you an iron supplement that you're kind of taking in conjunction, depending on that. And so, we're resting and resetting and having time to journal, dream, and brainstorm things for the, you know, hopefully the next and then the next week, the estrogen is coming up a lot, and starting to feel back to normal self, usually really good and feeling that surge, the mood starts to get better, it's a great time to start to do like some good heavy weightlifting and exercise can even be based around cycle two. For menstruation, you're probably going to want to do a little bit more lower impact and walking and stretching, Pilates, things like that. And then a bar and all that and then weightlifting that second week is great.   And then also, that's around ovulation is that's where we feel more loving and affectionate and different things and the way that God designed our body literally to want to be with a man around that time. And that's procreation time. And then right around the after ovulation, that third week, and fourth week can start to get challenging because that's where well, sometimes that third week is a good, sweet spot.   But the fourth week, the week before the period. Yeah, like that day is 19 to 21. And then like after that, that's where some mood swings can start to happen.   And the estrogens come down a lot progesterone depending on where the bodies at. Most women are deficient in progesterone overall. So, if it's already decreasing, it was a peak in the third week, and then it's decreasing, going towards menstruating again, then it's a recipe for not sleeping great mood swings, irritability, bloating, breast tenderness, that can be estrogen imbalances, excess estrogen, low progesterone like symptoms.   And then yeah, that was a lot.   Laura Dugger: (10:59 - 11:20) That's so helpful. I want right before we move on, because I want to hear how to mitigate some of those symptoms. But first, you mentioned eating seasonally, even each week. So, is that what you're saying that we eat more of those winter foods, that day one to seven? And could you give an example for each phase?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (11:21 - 14:19) One example, Sweet potato, you know, like the foods that you would find more in the winter. So, you're kind of doing like sweet potatoes.   And like I said, the fatty food, like a healthy fat Mediterranean, definitely right around the cycle. Body craves, if you find yourself craving chocolate, it's probably because your body's deficient in magnesium. Most of us are.   So, some women will use it as an excuse to have chocolate, guilty as charged. But actually, it's magnesium deficiency, but chocolate has magnesium in it. So, if you get a rich, like dark chocolate, if you're not sensitive to chocolate, and you can do one that's a really dark and, and doesn't have a ton of sugar, then that could be a good source.   But just foods rich in magnesium, dark leafy greens, avocados, nuts, and really checking levels and magnesium, Epsom salt baths, things like that, that's going to be great. You're going to want to do that also kind of the week before the period to in the fall like food. So, you know, like the, the squashes, and you kind of like the baked vegetables and, and protein and, and then like in the spring, like the week after, then maybe you're doing more like, you know, berries and, and, you know, things that you would have in this in the springtime and summer, different types of meat that you would like lean chicken and turkey. Then harvest like food for that week before the period to give you good. There's something called seed cycling. So, the pumpkin seeds and well, sesame and sunflower are for days 14 to 28 of the cycle.   So, the second half that gives the body the micronutrients needed to help support progesterone and then pumpkin and wow, I'm really blanking probably because I need to eat lunch. But we can come back well it's going to come back to me the pumpkin and the is it chia? No, flax.   Flax. Okay, flax seed. Pumpkin and flax for days one, the day we start bleeding to ovulation day 14, and then sesame and sunflower days 14 to 28.   So, like adding those into smoothies, handful of nuts, nut butter, sunflower seed butter, you know, those kinds of things. Those that can also kind of support the cycle naturally and give the body the nutrients that are needed to support the body like that.   Laura Dugger: (14:19 - 14:37) Okay. I have heard about seed cycling before. It kind of ties into the other question I had. I wondered if it's normal to have really painful and heavy menstrual cycles? Or is that an indicator that something's not right and maybe we need to bring in something like seed cycling?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (14:39 - 18:15) Yes, painful, heavy menstruation. That's not normal. I personally have dealt with them.   So, I understand they're awful and they can leave some women, you know, nauseous, throwing up, vomiting, breast tenderness. Now, that signs of excess estrogen that likely needs to be detoxed. And I would recommend going to a holistic practitioner and asking them to do a saliva hormone testing panel.   Actually, we have no, I don't have it with me right now. But it's basically these vials of saliva that you spit right when you wake up, lunchtime, dinnertime, bedtime, and it'll check sex hormones between days 19 to 21 of the cycle. We're checking peak progesterone time so we can look at the most accurate depiction if you're cycling.   It's still possible to do it if you're postmenopausal and want to do the test, we could do it at any time. But it's a saliva hormone test is the most accurate way to measure hormones and see exactly what's going on. We can check blood work, but it's just like a little shot in the dark. But the saliva is the more accurate picture of what's going on.   So, I would recommend if you're having really heavy menstrual cycle, yes, you can try the seed cycling to start. That's harmless to try. But there might be more things going on that really need to be seen by a practitioner to help either support what hormone is low or detox another hormone that is excess.   Now, we are overall in our society getting a lot of excess estrogen. And that can be through plastics, we get a lot like trying to switch even just a bottle as I'm drinking through. We don't want to try and drink as much plastic out of plastic, we want to do like glass water bottles.   And like stainless steel water bottles better. Unless you're in a crazy rush and you forgot to bring one is better drink some water than no water. We've got to stay hydrated to have healthy bowel movements to have energy to our cells, all of that good water filter that filters out fluoride, chlorine, those things will affect the thyroid very much so. Thyroid hormones affect sex hormones and etc.   So, we want to get a good filter for the water so that we don't have to deal with the after effects of thyroid imbalances or if you're already dealing with thyroid imbalances. I understand because I've dealt with that myself. And so, we want to remove as many stressors because the thyroid needs iodine just to function.   And if we're getting fluoride and chlorine, those particular elements compete for iodine in the body. So, we got to get those out as best as we can get rid of excess estrogen. Through plastics, chemicals and detergents, like all of the chemicals that are exposed in detergents and cleaning products. As much as we can clean those up as well, it's going to be very, very helpful for thyroid, very helpful for sex hormones.   Laura Dugger: (18:16 - 18:26) Oh, that's interesting. So, those I don't even think of that are like store brand names for detergents that those could be endocrine disruptors, you're saying?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (18:26 - 18:45) That's great. Yes. So, endocrine disruptors are things that are going to cause imbalances to the thyroid, the sex hormones, or any of their other hormones in the body. Yes. So, we definitely want to try and stay away from those things.   Laura Dugger: (18:46 - 21:10) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.    With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, Washington, and Canton, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. 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If you want to become a part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department, so we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them.   Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing at lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com. That's L-E-M-A-N properties dot com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.    Okay, so I'm even thinking, so females my age or friends or older or younger women listening, even we have four daughters and so as they grow and mature, all of this is helpful. I'm assuming to start at a young age with getting rid of some of those toxins or not microwaving food on plastic plates, but then also you said detox. Is that through hydration or did you mean something else with detoxification?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (21:11 - 22:47) I can't get into this unless I saw somebody as a patient because I can't give across the board recommendation for this, but I will say because there are certain supplements and things that might be needed. Say there's excess estrogen in the body, there might be supplements that that person needs to help bring down those excess estrogen levels aside from food. But one thing that I do know that you can eat that helps overall is the more that you love and detoxify the liver. It's what has to process all the hormones.   One thing is broccoli sprouts, not broccoli, broccoli sprouts. So, you know, micro green sprouts, those ones, the broccoli sprouts are incredible at helping getting rid of the bad kinds of estrogen, detox those out of the body. So, that's really good.   Cruciferous vegetables, cooking your cruciferous vegetables though, because if you eat them raw, it can affect the thyroid negatively. So, it's best to, it could cause goiters and so we don't want that. It can be goitrogenic essentially.   So, we don't want that, but you could bake. I mean, you could cook cruciferous vegetables, broccoli, brussels sprouts, kale, etc., those cruciferous vegetables, spinach, all that. And those are great also for that. So, that can help.   The best one is the broccoli sprouts. Yes. And then getting saliva hormone testing done and seeing exactly where your body is at.   Laura Dugger: (22:48 - 22:53) Okay. Cause I'm wondering then could that even be a mineral deficiency when you're talking about supplements?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (22:55 - 27:11) Yeah, there definitely can be mineral deficiencies. It just, like I said, I've seen a lot of different variations, right? Excess estrogen, low progesterone, low menopausal, low everything.   Once the hormones bottom out, then they're kind of low across the board and the body might need bioidentical hormones to have extra support. It's cardioprotective, protective against cancers, protective for the bones, different things like that. Bioidentical is different than synthetic.   Synthetic hormones is like birth control, but synthetic hormones can, go see the last episode when we talk about leaky gut intestinal permeability, but the birth control can actually cause intestinal permeability too. So, that's a problem. Leaky gut can be from birth control, the synthetic birth control, and then the body's not even able to ovulate.   It's not able to release. There's just like the, the way that God designed it is we're actually, if you allow it to look at it as like a cleansing and a purging every month, that spiritually the Lord, if we allow the Lord, we don't have to dread it. It's so common in society to dread a period. Or, oh my gosh, again, here we go.   But how beautiful it's a celebration of the ability to give life. It's an opportunity to take some time to rest. It's a beautiful time to take some time to sit back and reflect, especially that week before the period.   Also try and not make big decisions the week before because the progesterone's bottomed out causing mood swings and then making decisions is going to be a lot more stressful and can lighten load and work a little bit that week before, a few days prior to your period. That would be very helpful. Stress levels really impact the cycle and also just trying to prepare the body for going through perimenopause and then menopause.   Wherever you're at in your health journey, life journey, it's, it's just so good to educate younger women to be really taking care of their adrenals, which is this, you know, the organ that produces stress hormone because high cortisol, which is the stress hormone produced by the adrenal glands, zaps progesterone and most women, that's probably why I see a lot of progesterone dipping so quickly. You need progesterone to have a healthy pregnancy. So, we're seeing a lot more miscarriages and infertility problems could be from low progesterone.   And, um, and then that will eventually bottom out with menopause because the ovaries are not producing it anymore. And the only place that we have progesterone left in reserves is in the adrenal glands. And so, if the stress has been going on for so long, then even the reserves of the backups of the backups are gone, the progesterone, which is why I see a lot of women going through a more extreme version of menopause than with the night sweats and the hot flashes and all those things that maybe didn't even have to happen.   Because, uh, if we take care of it on, on the earlier end of managing stress levels, going to bed at good times, getting full amount of sleep, women need eight to 10 hours of sleep. We will, I will just go ahead and say that because our hormones are very independent, dependent on our adrenal function. Men, they don't really have to rely on their adrenals as much as their other, other sex hormones and locations.   Um, so they don't have to deal with it as much as the women. So, we're constantly tied to a function of our adrenals really affects our sex hormones like crazy. And we're not getting the right amount of sleep.   Then we're going to have high stress levels, high cortisol, and then the high cortisol is where it is at the sex hormones. So, we need those reserves to be replenished and the, and the cortisol levels drop and melatonin kicks in and we're going to sleep so much better and sleep so much deeper.   Laura Dugger: (27:12 - 27:36) Wow. This is fascinating. And I love how you're even celebrating the cycle and how God created it because I'm forgetting one of them, but I heard that menstrual blood was tested, and they saw that it was detoxifying plastics and pesticides. And there was one other thing that the body was using to eliminate. And so that's a reminder just to be grateful for that too.   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (27:36 - 29:08) And, uh, the birth control pill, it's a temporary fix. There are alternative forms of birth control that do not have the synthetic hormones that are good, good options, you know, and the synthetic hormones though, I've firsthand seen it with patients negatively impact the thyroid. And a lot of them have had to end up on thyroid medication just simply due to years and years of birth control and it impacting the thyroid and the cellular health as well as the lining of the gut and a lot of other side effects that I'm not a weight gain, different things.   And then the body not even being able to menstruate and fully excrete things. And, um, or even, you know, the, the cycle is an indicator, I think for women very much of like your monthly health, like how, how am I doing? Like if I'm having a really bad period, um, likely it was something that I had done this past month.   Okay. Did I eat right? Was I sleeping?   Was I incredibly stressed? Usually, you can trace it back to that. Now there's obviously other cases where, you know, PCOS and ruptured ovaries and different things like that, or ruptured cysts on the ovaries, sorry.   Um, then that can contribute to longer term diseases, but on a, it's almost like a litmus test to see how, how our bodies are doing.   Laura Dugger: (29:09 - 29:27) I like that perspective. And Emily, you're so great at giving proactive tips and I love easy wins. So, what are some of the best practices that you recommend for women to support healthy hormones and healthy adrenals in our bodies all month long?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (29:30 - 33:32) One is glucose management. So, protein, I cannot emphasize it enough protein sources, um, you know, good, healthy, as much as you can, grass fed organic meat. So, you're not getting the synthetic hormones from them because who knows what they're being fed and what they're being pumped with, but those sources, um, protein, other sources of protein, um, that's going to give you up to 15 hours of energy.   So, that is incredible. As far as eating for energy, I will say, if you can do that, that's, um, it's incredible. It's a game changer, eating for energy, protein, vegetables give us up to five to six hours of energy.   And then carbs, carbs give us, um, like if we had a piece of fruit, it only lasts in the system for 15 minutes. Or, um, potato chips, something like that, 15 minutes, that's not very long. And then the body says, ”I'm hungry again.” Then we ended up overeating because we just had the carbs and we're not full.   And so, that's why pairing the meals around the protein and then the fiber and then a healthy fat. Or like the protein, the fiber and a complex carb (sweet potato, brown rice, quinoa). Things like that is going to stabilize the blood sugar. So, there will not be cortisol stress levels spiked when we don't eat for too long, then it can cause the body to go into, um, stress overload. And there's four different stages of adrenal fatigue, cortisol, and that can affect the body very much.   So, spikes and crashes in glucose spike and crash the cortisol and then spikes and cortisol will steal your progesterone and then cause imbalances because progesterone keeps the estrogen in check. So, then you got estrogen and progesterone imbalances. Then there's DHEA, which is the other hormone that's made in the adrenals. So, sometimes DHEA, DHEA is incredible for building muscle, keeping muscle concentration, memory.   It's, wonderful at libido, all sorts of those things. Now, DHEA just decreases as we age. It's the precursor to testosterone as well, but it's also made in the adrenal glands.   And so, the more we can regulate cortisol and adrenal, sometimes high levels of stress, we've got to go back and think. Okay, um, we might not even feel stress, but if there's been physical abuse, emotional abuse, or sexual trauma, those are serious things that the body will hold on to. And unless you have gone to process, I recommend getting a Christian counselor and process those things because the body can literally still be holding onto it 20, 30, even 40 years, if it's not been let go and given to Jesus. And, um, so that is also a huge, we can't dismiss that or just try and fix the physical.   If there's been some stressors and the body has just been in survival mode and has to just keep going, then maybe it only knows how to live off of high cortisol stress reserves to just keep going. It doesn't, but if you have a hard time falling asleep, a hard time unwinding, feel like you're always on the go, those are like adrenal stages one and two high cortisol, but then that eventually will start to plummet. And then it's, um, you know, more difficult time getting out of bed and jumping straight out crash in the afternoon with energy crash after dinner crash before bed, um, or like wired and tired, like wired the brain's wired.   The body feels tired, but can't go to sleep. Then further stages waking up between 2:00 and 4:00 in the morning could be blood sugar, adrenal issues as well.   Laura Dugger: (33:32 - 33:41) Oh, could you speak a little bit more into that? Could be, the blood sugar related to the adrenal issues if you're waking up at that 2:00 to 4:00 AM time?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (33:42 - 34:47) Yes, it can be, the body signaling that the blood sugars drop too low. And then the cortisol has to, it can signal to the cortisol and the adrenals to spike to just keep the body going, survive. And then all of a sudden cortisol is spiking at night, which it should not, it should be done.   And melatonin should be happening at night and then cortisol in the daytime. So, if there's a cortisol spike because of a glucose crash, then, um, then we need to support it with, a spoonful of almond butter before bed, a handful of nuts, something, some protein before bed is going to, help someone, you know, in the middle of the night, stabilize the blood sugar. It can be a blood sugar issue with, cause blood sugar and cortisol are interconnected, but also should just check your cortisol levels, get a saliva test.   It's that saliva four point, um, test checks for sex hormones and cortisol, or we can.   Laura Dugger: (34:47 - 35:06) So. Okay. One more thing with that. So, then the blood sugar dropping that low, is that somebody who's maybe completing their closing, their eating window too early in the day, or they're not getting enough sugar throughout the day. Is that what you're saying with, why would it drop to that level and require cortisol?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (35:08 - 36:51) Great question. It would be, it could be the person's not eating enough throughout the day and the body just doesn't have the right. So, if the person was fasting quite frequently and doing that a lot now, everybody, everyone's body is different.   If you have adrenal imbalances, I do not recommend doing fasting because the body is already under stress and then fasting can put extra stress on the body. So then you're like, well, but then they said that if I fast and I should lose weight, and if you're fasting and you're gaining belly fat and you're gaining weight, it's a telltale sign cortisol because high cortisol level, puffy face, um, belly fat, stubborn, you can eat right exercise, try and do everything and it will not leave. That's usually survival mode. Body's trying to self-protect. Um, and so, yeah, so we don't want to be fasting very much if there's cortisol imbalances. Now, if there's not, and if you have your cortisol check, then there's great benefits to doing intermittent fasting and things.   And even biblically spiritually, there's incredible benefits to fasting. The Lord knows there's the cells literally repair themselves, regenerate and can eat up cancer cells. If we put our bodies into that ketosis state for good bit, but that is not something I would recommend doing high intensity exercise, or that's going to put a lot of cortisol stress on the body, high impact, um, or skipping a lot of meals.   So, that could be why the blood sugar is like dropping in the middle of the night.   Laura Dugger: (36:52 - 37:37) I just wanted to let you know, there are now multiple ways to give when you visit TheSavvySauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled support. Our mailing address is also provided.   If you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible. Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com today. Thanks for your support.    Is there anything else that we haven't gotten to discuss yet that you want to make sure we don't miss out on?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (37:38 - 39:15) So what, when do you know if you're in perimenopause versus menopause? And like I said, if you're a woman in your twenties and you're like, that does not apply to me. Actually, it does because it's just, you don't want to get to menopause and have no reserves.   Progesterone left because you depleted it from high levels of cortisol over the years. So, lifestyle changes, the protein, smaller, more frequent meals, the consistent bedtime, trying to go to bed before midnight, like 10:00 PM is like a sweet spot. 10:00 PM to 2:00 AM is when the liver detoxes, when cholesterol gets flushed, all these different things.   Melatonin window for the body to like fall asleep and stay asleep is between 10 PM and like, there's sometimes it's even earlier. It just depends on the person. And I actually use a little app called Rise. It does a good job kind of helping you track where you're melatonin and when you're awake window, when to cut off eating and when to kind of wear blue light blocking glasses to prevent your body to blue light helps.   We set this in the last one, but blue light actually tells your body to stay awake. So, you don't want to be on your screens too late at night, or your body's going to be sending the signals to stay awake when you're trying to wind down. So, using softer lighting, doing candle lit, doing, you know, just mimicking outside when the sun goes down, we should be going down, going down to bed and sleep when the sun wakes up. That's when we should be getting up as well.   Laura Dugger: (39:15 - 39:38) So, and getting that morning sunlight that we talked about. So important. And I forgot one quick follow-up question. When you talked about cortisol, too high of cortisol contributing to belly fat, that stubborn or puffy face, what would the solution be? Is it just manage your stress better or what's the takeaway there?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (39:38 - 42:39) The takeaway is yes, there's things you can do glucose wise, blood sugar and food that we've talked about. Lifestyle wise, of course. I mean, a ton of it is we're American society that trophies busyness.   And like the Bible literally talks about the importance of rest and the Sabbath and like even humans, we were made on day six, but the first day we were actually doing things, Adam and Eve was day seven, was the day of rest. My dad's a pastor and he actually just gave a sermon on rest and the Sabbath just last week at Harvest Sound. But it was just all about that we were created out of rest.   Like we're there to start doing things out of that place of rest. And we just don't take that time. I mean, it's like, okay, we got to go, go, go, got to take care of the kids, got to go do this, go do this.   How are you doing? Oh, I'm so busy. How about you?   Like, it's almost like a trophy thing to say that, but really like, how about prioritizing that time? And it's so easy, especially as women and mothers to just say, oh, but I just want to take care of everybody else. But like, if you were to have a date with your friend, you wouldn't go overbook it with something else.   You would prioritize that. Are you going to go do something for your child? You're going to prioritize that.   So, I need you to also take time to prioritize your me time, prioritize the time. It's not selfish. It's necessary because you're going to be a better wife.   You're going to be a better mom. You're going to be a better friend. If you take care of the needs, whether that's taking an Epsom salt bath once a week, and that's spending time mourning sunlight or writing a list of gratitude, doing things, write a list of things that bring you joy and just pick two or three of those a day.   Like build that in - life's too short. Literally cortisol will kill you. Also, we didn't talk about that, but it's taking minutes off your life.   So, life's too short to have cortisol, unnecessary cortisol spikes. So, as much as we can,  it's prioritizing that learning the healthy boundaries saying no when needed to, and, not saying yes to everything. So, that is, it's a lot of those lifestyle things.   And then, fine tuning it with a health practitioner is great because everybody's spikes and crashes are in different places. Some people have high cortisol. Some people further on into the adrenal fatigue have low cortisol because the body doesn't have any more cortisol to give.   And that's a whole other list of symptoms of exhaustion and fatigue. And they might need actually glandular support and different, totally different supplements than someone that's got high cortisol, but they can present similarly as far as stubborn weight, puffiness, energy spikes and crashes and different things like that.   Laura Dugger: (42:40 - 43:04) So how incredible to get to follow up with a health professional then, and you are certainly one that we would recommend. And so even if we're out of state, but we could make a first appointment with you and figure out some way to do telehealth, can you just give us your website or share what you have to offer so that we can maybe make a follow-up appointment after this conversation?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (43:05 - 43:38) So it's pureintegrativehealth.com. And I could click on the tab, become a patient, just fill that form out. And then we can talk about a plan if you're in Tennessee, great.   We can just right away, we know you're in person. If you are out of state, I have to see you in person for the first initial eval and then we can come up with some hybrid plan of telemedicine in between visits and legally just need to be able to see you still once a year or something in person, but we could do the rest in telemedicine options.   Laura Dugger: (43:39 - 43:58) So yeah, it's a wonderful option. We will link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Emily, you're already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (43:59 - 46:04) Well, in regards to this topic today with hormones, I would say my Savvy Sauce is actually, it would be around getting that bedtime routine down packed in order to have an eight to 10 hours of like actual sleep because the mind does a brain sweep and gets rid of toxins in the brain between seven and a half hours and nine hours. It's happened somewhere in that window. And so if we're skipping out on sleep, we're missing out.   If you're getting even six hours, you're missing out on the neural brain sweep that actually gets rid of the toxins that prevent Alzheimer's, dementia, a lot of other problems. The metabolism at nighttime, the body literally burns fat at night. We have to get sleeping.   And so, and if you're having problems sleeping, you're like, I want to sleep, but I haven't, then I would recommend start looking into different forms of magnesium. I can't get into it fully today because there's seven different kinds of magnesium, but there are some that will actually help with sleep. And so talk with your practitioner about the best forms that could help you increase your sleep as well, because most of us can be deficient in that and creating that really, really healthy rhythm.   Just knowing your why behind why you're sleeping is also really helpful because it's like, you can hear a lot of people say, you need to get more sleep. I should go to bed, do this, but why? It's actually getting a neural sweep, liver is detoxing, cholesterol is cleansing.   God does an incredible thing with our dreams. We're literally flushing and processing all the things from the day. And so, talk about stress and adrenals.   We got to help heal through our sleep.   Laura Dugger: (46:05 - 46:26) Wow. Thank you for leaving us with that word. There's so much more we could cover.   And ever since our first interaction, you have just been overflowing with kindness and graciousness and generosity with your time and sharing your knowledge. You're so kind, but I have just loved spending this time with you. Thank you so much, Emily, for being my repeat guest.   Emily Macleod-Wolfe: (46:27 - 46:32) Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much, Laura, for having me again. This has been wonderful. I really appreciate it.   Laura Dugger: (46:33 – 50:15) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes including where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

269. Questions for More Connection and Laughter in Marriage with Casey and Meygan Caston   *Disclaimer* This episode contains some mature themes and listener discretion is advised.   2 Corinthians 1:4 NIRV "He comforts us in all our troubles. Now we can comfort others when they are in trouble. We ourselves receive comfort from God."   *Transcript Below*   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you share three of the questions from your most recent book, specifically the ones people have told you unlocked the best conversations in their own marriage? You say you're an unlikely couple to help support marriages. Will you share a glimpse of your own backstory? What are a handful of ideas for ways couples can strengthen their connection with one another?   Casey and Meygan Caston are the Co-Founders of Marriage365. Casey and Meygan were perfect examples of what not to do in marriage. Three years into marriage, they found themselves having racked up more than $250,000 in debt, fighting constantly, and were ready to call it quits. Despite the 12 failed marriages between their parents, they knew this wasn't the legacy they wanted for themselves or their children. They began reading and educating themselves on how to do marriage the right way. The result of their journey is Marriage365, where they millions of people worldwide through their books, social media, retreats, and their online streaming service, Marriage365.   Marriage 365 Website Marriage 365 App Marriage 365 Books Marriage 365 Coaching   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Sample of Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce: 4 Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life With Your Spouse With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen 5 Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau  6 Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma 89 Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery 108 Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder 135 Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand 155 Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1 156 Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2 158 Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta 165 Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas 186 Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler 218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: An Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma Special Patreon Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder 252 Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcript*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:15)  Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.    I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse.   To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org.    Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Casey and Meygan.   Casey Caston:  Thanks for having us. Excited to be here.   Laura Dugger: So, thrilled to have both of you, and let's just dive right into one of your sweet spots. How can open-ended questions change a marriage?   Casey Caston: (1:16 - 2:33)  Yeah, well, if you think about when we first met somebody that we fell in love with, fell attracted to that first date, as you're sitting across the table, you are looking at that person with so much curiosity. Like, who is this person? What are their hopes and their dreams and their life experiences?   What are they afraid of? Where are they going in life? And that curiosity drove us to ask really good open-ended questions.   Like, tell me more about yourself. It's funny because we were just reading in Proverbs this morning that in a man's heart, he has a purpose, but a man of understanding draws from the deep wells to pull that out. And I just, I always think about how a great question plums the deep wells of a man's heart or woman's heart.   And that attraction, that energy we feel, helps us with asking great questions. But then what happens is when we get married and we move into the wash, rinse, repeat of childcare and chores and, you know, the mundaneness of going to work, coming home, dinner, like, it can really sap all of the romance out of a relationship. And so, what happens is we fall into asking really boring questions.   Meygan Caston: (2:33 - 2:34)  Like, how was your day?   Casey Caston: (2:34 - 2:36)  What's picking up the kids?   Meygan Caston: (2:36 - 2:37)  What's for dinner? Yeah.   Casey Caston: (2:38 - 3:18)  So, we realize that when the well is dry, so to speak, you're not asking those great questions. We need prompts. We need an outside prompt because I don't think naturally we would ask great questions to spark this, you know, connecting conversation.   And I will tell you too, that if you just dropped in and, you know, just ask your spouse, like, “Hey, so, tell me some boundaries we need to set up with your parents.” People are going to be like, “Excuse me, where did that question come from? And what's the question behind the question?   What's your motivation here?” But those are conversations we need to have. We just need prompts.   So, yeah.   Laura Dugger: (3:19 - 3:32)  Well, I love that response. And I'm also curious after working with so many married couples, what have you seen as that connection between these amazing prompts for open-ended questions and emotional intimacy?   Meygan Caston: (3:34 - 4:20)  Yeah. Well, kind of like what Casey was mentioning about, um, just that curiosity of getting to know each other. I think the other part of asking those open-ended questions and having these deeper conversations is really about intentionality.   Like you still care about me. You still want to know about my heart. Well, for us, 25 years later, I still care about you.   I still love you. And I think that of course, as women, we long for that emotional connection. And I don't think that men realize it, but they actually long for that too.   And it's creating a safe place for spouses to share, to cry, to even, um, dream together about their future. And I think, again, if we don't give ourselves those opportunities and we're not intentional with that, we get stuck in the mundaneness of marriage.   Casey Caston: (4:20 - 5:03)  But, uh, and I would add to that, that curiosity, Meygan, I've talked about how curiosity is the pursuit of something. Right. And we all long to be desired to be pursued.   I mean, that is, that underlying communication is so powerful in relationships, because if you think about it, if you're not being pursued and your spouse isn't curious, I mean, that's like the, the heart of apathy. It's like, I don't care. And I know that people aren't intentionally trying to communicate that, but when you feel that, like my spouse doesn't really care about what I dream about or what I'm hoping to achieve this year, they just come home and they just watch TV or they're on their phone.   Meygan Caston: (5:04 - 5:18)  Right. That communicates a lot non-verbally. And so, that's why these open-ended questions are something that we should never stop being a learner of each other and of ourselves.   And that will provide that emotional intimacy.   Laura Dugger: (5:19 - 5:45)  That's so good. And obviously your resources are amazing. I would love, because you have these 365 Connecting Questions for Couples.   And so, I want to just hear maybe three of these questions that come to mind for you guys, especially as you've heard, these are the ones that tend to unlock something deeper in the conversation.   Meygan Caston: (5:46 - 6:07)  Absolutely. So, August 3rd is, are you someone who spends a lot of time in deep thought, processing things before making a decision, or do you tend to make quick decisions? Why or why not?   That question has genuinely sparked so much conversation between us and even like with our kids and other couples. Maybe you can explain why.   Casey Caston: (6:07 - 6:11)  Yeah. Well, I'm Mr. Impulsivity, so.   Meygan Caston: (6:11 - 6:29)  Yeah, you are. Where I, I don't, I wouldn't consider myself a deep thinker, but I definitely like to make pros and cons lists and think through things. But if you think about a dynamic between a husband and a wife, you know, there are so many decisions that you make together, small and large, your whole life, every day.   Casey Caston: (6:29 - 6:30)  Decision-making is huge in relationships.   Meygan Caston: (6:31 - 6:57)  And it's an everyday thing that couples are tackling. And it's important to know that no one is better than the other. It's not that a deep thinker is better than a more impulsive person. It's kind of more just naturally how you are. Have you always been this way? Do you like that about yourself?   Wow. You know, well, when it comes to these bigger decisions, I do spend, make more time, you know, thinking through and pros and cons. Oh, well, with small decisions, I'm more impulsive. I mean, you could just talk about that for hours and hours.   Casey Caston: (6:57 - 7:01) Yeah. But what's interesting is I tend to think more futuristic and big picture.   Meygan Caston: (7:01 - 7:01)  Yes.   Casey Caston: (7:01 - 7:03)  Even though I'm impulsive in the moment.   Meygan Caston: (7:03 - 7:05)  And I cannot, I can't do that.   Casey Caston: (7:05 - 7:06)  You are Ms. Realist.   Meygan Caston: (7:06 - 7:08)  Just tell me today, tell me this week.   Casey Caston: (7:09 - 7:10)  I can't think about this fun sponge.   Meygan Caston: (7:11 - 7:11)  Yes. Yeah.   Casey Caston: (7:12 - 7:15)  Because I'm like, let's dream big. And she's like, yeah, but what's happening today?   Meygan Caston: (7:16 - 7:49)  Yeah. Yeah. Another great question is January 18th.   How can we romance each other during the day in anticipation of sex? Because as we all know, us ladies, we need the foreplay. But again, I think that husbands also enjoy the foreplay.   But I don't think that couples are having these conversations. I think they think a foreplay is, well, once we enter into the bedroom, you know, and what we like to say is it's anything positive is foreplay. So, a thoughtful text, you know, a flirty I'm going to grab your hand to empty out the dishwasher.   Casey Caston: (7:49 - 7:50)  Amen.   Meygan Caston: (7:50 - 7:55)  Yeah. You know, it's those kinds of conversations. But like, I would never think of asking you that.   Casey Caston: (7:56 - 7:56)  Right.   Meygan Caston: (7:56 - 7:58)  Right. Thankfully for those.   Casey Caston: (7:58 - 8:10)  But as you know, Laura, like couples that need to talk about their sex life. And if you don't talk about your sex life, most oftentimes there's a lot of assumptions. And that leads to, you know, dysfunction.   Meygan Caston: (8:11 - 9:14)  Well, and missed expectations. Totally. Yeah. And then I have another question. April 25th is how do our differences help complement each other?   Oh, so, kind of another one of those things, like with making decisions. Every single couple has differences. And we always tell people Casey, and I are more different than alike.   I think people see us online and whatnot. And they hear, oh, we're both extroverts. We are. So, we have some similarities. We're both stubborn, very competitive, both competitive. But in the day-to-day operations of who Casey and Meygan are, we make decisions, we run our lives, run our business, run our business.   We are completely opposite. And what I think it's good to do for couples is to actually own your differences rather than shy away from them or make yourselves feel bad, like, oh, I wish we were the same. I get it.   You know, we actually are attracted to those things when we're dating. That's why opposites attract. But then when we get married, it's like, why doesn't he do everything the same way? I do it because I do it the right way. That's what we think. Right.   Casey Caston: (9:15 - 9:21)  Well, you heard the joke that marriage is about becoming one. And in the earlier years, it's about which one.   Meygan Caston: (9:21 - 10:14)  Yeah. Which one? Which figure out?   Yeah. And so, that question really allows you to identify your differences, but then go, how do they balance each other out? And I think for me, as someone who is organized, type A Casey's very spontaneous.   If we were both type A and structured, we wouldn't have a lot of fun. We really wouldn't. His spontaneity really brings out that side of me.   But if we were both spontaneous, our bills would never be paid, and we'd be broke. So, you know, I'm a I'm a saver. He's a spender.   You can see the balance in that. It's good that we're both those things. Right.   I'm on time. He's late. We could continue going on and on and on and on.   But I think that he's a risk taker. I'm a complete play it safer. And so, those really draw out a beautiful balance in our marriage versus trying to change one another.   So, I hope that question sparks listeners to really ask your spouse that and have fun with the conversation.   Laura Dugger: (10:15 - 11:03)  Well, you chose three great ones. I love it. And they draw out such different parts of our personality.   You highlighted where Casey's more futuristic. Meygan, you're more present. Some people will connect with questions that direct them more past oriented.   And so, our orientation to time comes out and the meta conversations, the talking like having the conversation about your conversation. Just so much goodness. And yes, especially with sexual intimacy.   So, many couples report that it is much harder to engage in conversation about sex rather than just have sex. And like you said, missed expectations can be one of the blow ups there, among many other things. So, you have questions that don't shy away from all forms of intimacy.   Meygan Caston: (11:04 - 11:10)  Yeah. And to also say we have a lot of fun questions, too. Like, tell me about what your bedroom looked like when you were a teenager.   Casey Caston: (11:11 - 11:12)  That's a great one. I love that one.   Meygan Caston: (11:12 - 11:47)  Let's talk couples. If you had a really hard day with the kids or at work, pick a fun question. You don't have to go by the date.   If you don't like the question, it's triggering, then flip to the next one. But going back to that emotional intimacy and connection that you were talking about, Laura, is you have to have those deep questions and those conversations. And you did when you were dating, because if you went on a date with your husband and you were like, hey, tell me, you know, what do you want to do when you retire?   And he was like, I don't know. Yeah, you'd be like snooze fest. This guy's boring, right?   Or if he was on his phone the whole time, there was something intriguing about your spouse.   Casey Caston: (11:47 - 11:48)  I don't know. I don't know.   Meygan Caston: (11:48 - 12:01)  Yeah, there was something intriguing about your spouse when you were dating and you were asking those questions that should never stop. Just like we hear that quote, never stop dating your spouse. Well, never stop learning about your spouse.   It's the same thing. Absolutely.   Laura Dugger: (12:02 - 12:16)  And I love how you two have such a humble approach because you say that you're a very unlikely couple to help support marriages. So, will you let us in on your own backstory?   Meygan Caston: (12:17 - 12:46)  Yeah, well, can I just start off by saying this? We live in a county that has one of the highest divorce rates in the nation. So, it's 72 percent divorce rate where we live.   We also come from there's 12 marriages between our parents. So, we come from so much divorce and trauma. And then we also got married very, very, very young.   So, all those statistics were against us on top of that. I'm just going to start off by saying that. Casey Caston: (12:46 - 13:18)  Yeah, my mom's been married six times. So, when by the time I hit junior high, I had probably like nine different iterations of home life and different dads and step siblings and half brothers. And all of that between both of our parents.   There's just there's some mental illness. There's affairs. There's all this trauma that was really unprocessed.   But then when Meygan and I saw each other, it was like we knew the wounds that we shared. It was like almost like a trauma bond.   Meygan Caston: (13:19 - 13:19)  Yeah.   Casey Caston: (13:19 - 14:08)  Like, oh, I've got abandonment. So, do you. And, you know, let's do it's like, wow.   So, let's make each other happy. And dating was just all the fun stuff, right? It was long walks along the beach.   It was going to street fairs or, you know, going out and having fun. And then we're like, if this is what life could be like, then we should do this forever and ever and ever. And just, you know, we were so doe eyed of like and optimistic about how marriage life would look like.   So, then once we did get married, done, done, done, we had to like work through stuff. Now, I was so conflict avoidant because I was afraid if there was conflict, then that means that there's going to be distance between Meygan and I and she might leave me.   Meygan Caston: (14:08 - 14:24)  Oh, there's another there's another difference. I'm a fighter. He's a fighter.   So, anytime we would have conflict triggers, you know, emotional regulation, I was like, we're going to go for it. Now, of course, my fighting tactics were not healthy. I yelled. I blamed. I was very aggressive, assertive.   Casey Caston: (14:24 - 14:37)  Conflict was very scary for me. Now. Now, Meygan, she's like wanting to deal with issues. And here I am, like trying to run for the hills. And she's like, he doesn't care about me. And I'm like, I'm trying to protect the marriage by not dealing with it.   Meygan Caston: (14:37 - 14:49)  So, you never really resolved anything. We would fight really bad. We broke all the fighting rules.   And then there was no true resolve, no apologies, no remorse. And you just kind of move forward.   Casey Caston: (14:49 - 15:06)  And so, then we piled ourselves like we had over two hundred fifty thousand dollars of debt when we started to try to work on getting pregnant. We we dealt with infertility. We I have ADHD, so that creates a lot of that's fun.   A lot of fun for the marriage.   Meygan Caston: (15:06 - 15:08)  The divorce rate is very high with ADHD.   Casey Caston: (15:08 - 15:10)  My life gets to teach you patience.   Meygan Caston: (15:11 - 15:11)  Yeah.   Casey Caston: (15:12 - 16:44)  But and then we have a child with special needs as well. So, we we had like if there's something that could go wrong, it it went wrong. We had you know, once we got married, there was toxic in-laws that boundaries that were crossed.   So, it just nothing for us came easy. And so, that's why we were the least likely to succeed in marriage. I mean, if we there was a couple doomed from the get go, it was Meygan and I believe a hundred percent that God used those trials, those hardships to create marriage.   Three sixty five. He gave us the strength to, you know, have the courage to say we're not going to follow in our parents footsteps. We're going to change that.    You know, it ends with us literally like we are going to change and break this generational sin because it goes back many, many generations for both of us. Our whole family is littered with divorce. And now like when we approach marriage, it because of where we've come from, it wasn't all flowery.   It was really tough. We have to be practical and very tactical with our advice, because when you're sitting across from a couple that's angry and resentful. We have to sit there and go, we know what that's like.   And here's exactly what you need to do next. I'm not going to give you a platitude. I'm not going to give you some flowery statement or we're not going to just talk through it.    No, we're going to give you a tool and an action step that's going to help you. Laura Dugger: (16:46 - 18:56)  Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time?    WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life from premarital to parenting to the emptiness phase. There is an opportunity for you. WinShape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even when it seems things are going smoothly so that they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.   These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of WinShape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well fed, well nurtured and well cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication and more.   I've stayed on site at WinShape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food and content. You will be so grateful you went to find an experience that's right for you and your spouse. Head to their website, winshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage dot org slash S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   I'd love to hear even more into the redemption part of it, because Marriage 365, you had shared before we had recorded that you launched that in 2013. So, just to get the timeline straight, had you already done some work and some counseling before you launched that?   Meygan Caston: (18:56 - 19:26)  Or what was that journey? Yeah, so, we always say we it took us two years to fall in love and get married. It took us three years to destroy our marriage, and it took about four or five years to repair our marriage.   It was, as you know, Laura, it is not a quick fix when your marriage is as bad as ours. And so, our story is unique in the sense where we were both not wanting to get help for our marriage. I love you, babe, but he was resistant.   He didn't want to go to therapy. His family didn't go to therapy. That wasn't normalized.   Casey Caston: (19:26 - 19:31)  Well, my faith background said that therapy is bad from the from the devil.   Meygan Caston: (19:31 - 19:38)  It was specifically your parents. But from the devil. Yeah, because I have a faith background, too. And my parents went to therapy. But that's what I was saying.   Casey Caston: (19:38 - 19:40)  My background was that you don't do that.   Meygan Caston: (19:40 - 21:16)  Yeah. So, I was wanting to get divorced and he wouldn't divorce me. He was like, no.   So, if you're going to do it, you got to do it. And so, I got help for myself. And I had the most amazing woman who a therapist who just walked me through basically how to save my marriage by myself.   And she goes, listen, you know, at the end of the day, if you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you. You have zero control over Casey. You have 100 percent control over you.   He's not here. You are. I can show you how to communicate, how to forgive him even without getting an apology.   I can show you how to bring to his defenses down. I can show you how to create boundaries so he doesn't yell at you anymore. I mean, and that's literally for 13 months I worked on myself. And I believe that that is what genuinely changed everything. And that's really the message behind Marriage 365 is if you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you. Stop waiting around for your husband or your wife to get on board.   They may never. Then you're only going to build resentment while you sit there and wait. At the end of the day, you're responsible for how you show up.   And so, in that 13 months, the hope was, of course, that I would positively influence Casey, which I did. And he saw the change in me. Everything changed.   I mean, like we both used to be yellers, right? We would both yell and scream. And I was like, I'm not going to yell anymore.   Like, I just I don't want to be a yeller of a mom. I don't want to be a yeller of a wife. Like, I don't like this part of me. My mom was a yeller. I mean, oh, yeah, I hate this. And I just remember like one day he came walking in and he was all heated and frustrated and he started yelling at me. And do you remember what I did, babe?   Casey Caston: (21:17 - 21:33)  Yeah. She looked at me and calmly said, you know, I can tell that you're very upset. I really want to have to listen to what you want to share with me.   Why don't you go outside, take a break, come back in? We're going to sit back on the couch. We can talk about it. I'm here for you. And I was like, what a change.   Meygan Caston: (21:33 - 22:07)  Who is this person? I changed the way that we did marriage. I did that.   And I tell people that I didn't do that once. I didn't do it twice. I did that for months because we had habits we had created.   But I was like, that was like a new boundary. I'm like, I'm not going to engage with him when he's angry. It's been triggered.   Nothing good is coming from this. So, it was all of that we started to really adopt and learn together because he's like, you're a different person. Like, it was obvious we were doing the tango.   And now I was doing the rumba and he was over there doing the tango. And I'm like, come join me in the healthy rumba over here because it's way better.   Casey Caston: (22:07 - 22:09)  And so, for toxic tango.   Meygan Caston: (22:09 - 23:20)  Yeah, we went to a marriage. Yeah, we went to a marriage intensive. And we did some therapy.   We did a lot of self-help. But through that journey, this is kind of where we started Marriage 365 is. First off, we couldn't afford therapy.   We needed to pay off all that debt that we had with a lot of student loan debt, a lot of stupid debt. What do you do if you can't afford therapy? What do you do if you don't have a good therapist?   What do you do if you have a bad experience with therapy? What do you do if the books aren't enough? And that was there was a really big hole and missing part in the marriage.   I don't say industry, but in the marriage space, where were all the online resources? Because this was back again in like 2010 when like podcasts weren't even around, social media was just becoming a thing. And it was really hard.   We were really disappointed with the lack of resources there were for marriage. And it felt like every church you go to, there was, you know, the missions ministry and the children's ministry and the youth groups. And all those are great.   Where in the world are all the marriage ministries? Then we found out only 3% of churches have actual paid marriage ministries. And I thought, that's messed up.   That's reverse. It's supposed to be the opposite, because then everything else will work itself out, as we know, with what research shows.   Casey Caston: (23:20 - 23:21)  Same with men's ministry, by the way.   Meygan Caston: (23:21 - 23:22)  Yes, same with men's ministry.   Casey Caston: (23:22 - 23:23)  Men's and marriage.   Meygan Caston: (23:23 - 23:26)  That's like the stepchild.   Casey Caston: (23:26 - 23:33)  Tech guy slash men's guy slash, you know. Children's persons can also do marriage.   Meygan Caston: (23:33 - 23:40)  So, we really just started helping our friends out. Obviously, people could see the change. Then people would come to us. We started helping couples at our church.   Casey Caston: (23:40 - 23:48)  And we had a ghoul pool. Like people were like, we give you guys another like ten months and then we're expecting you.   Meygan Caston: (23:48 - 23:51)  Yeah, everyone that knew us thought we'd get divorced.   Casey Caston: (23:51 - 23:52)  We were messy.   Meygan Caston: (23:52 - 23:58)  We were bad. Yeah. So, to see the complete transformation. And again, I go back to that work we did was on ourselves.   Casey Caston: (23:58 - 25:31)  And I just have to say that if you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you. If you're hearing that. And you're kind of in a one sided marriage right now, I got to just say, I know that message sucks because it's a message that says you have to go first.   And that's not fair. In a marriage, you're supposed to be a team. But I do want to say there's so many couples that are stuck. Waiting for their spouse to join them on the let's get healthy train. So, their spouse doesn't join them. And then what they do is they kind of lean back, fold their arms and go, well, I guess we're stuck.   But I want to say that that's there is a message of empowerment to say you do have influence and the ability to steer your marriage in a healthy way. I have lots of regret that I did not join that train much sooner. But the story is that Meygan, you know, became the hero of our journey.   And that is something that I work actively so that I'm never in that place again, that I am the one that's always actively trying to improve myself, that I'm a better communicator, that I'm not a yeller, which we've ditched that a long time ago, that that I'm considered of Meygan's needs. And I'm even like attuned to like, what is she feeling? And how do I meet her where she's at?   Laura Dugger: (25:32 - 25:54)  Which is amazing that watching Meygan, it was compelling enough for you to join in. And it's admirable on both sides, the work that you've done. And are there any specific areas that you grew in that now you teach couples? I'm thinking specifically under conflict and repair or communication.   Casey Caston: (25:55 - 27:42)  Yeah. So, I remember those early years and every single week was chaos to chaos. Like coming home, it'd be like, what's for dinner?   I'm hungry and we need to make a decision now. Or, you know, it's Friday night or Saturday morning. What's going on this weekend?   Or where's all our money going? It was very, it was very reactionary. And I remember reading through Stephen Covey's, you know, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.   And the first habit is be proactive. You cannot be intentional with your life. You cannot create purpose and meaning unless you are proactive with your life.   So, Meygan and I, you know, I'm working in a company and every single week we get together and we go through what are everyone's goals? What do we need to accomplish this week? We find alignment and the week goes really well.   We've got KPIs. We've got all these like, hey, as a team, you know, work team, here's what we're trying to accomplish this week. And it just kind of dawned on us like, well, why don't we do that in marriage?   Why don't we do that for a family? You got a family of six. You got six people running around the house. All have agendas. And you are trying to find alignment so that, hey, this is what the family is all about this week, right? We've got tournaments.   We've got parties. We've got projects. We've got meals.   And I think for so many couples we talk to, they live. Life with purpose on like building their career or their business or purpose with other areas of their life. And then when it comes to family, they wing it.   Meygan Caston: (27:42 - 27:43)  They just wing it.   Casey Caston: (27:43 - 28:31)  Yeah. And it's like, well, if it's meant to be, it's meant to be. It's the winging attitude creates chaos.   And so, Meygan and I love to teach this tool called the Weekly Marriage Business Meeting. And it is all of the logistics of our relationship schedules, meal plans, budgets, connection time, sexy time, alone time, self-care time. Yeah.   And and we kind of set with intention the week ahead for us. And we go through all the decisions of who's going, what, where, when. And all of that's done.   So, when you walk into the day, you're not like stressed about what's supposed to be happening. There is alignment and there's no missed expectations.   Meygan Caston: (28:31 - 29:27)  Yeah, there's no fights anymore about, well, you said you'd be home at six. No, I didn't. I said I'd be home at seven.   We sync our calendars. And I think, too, a big thing with this is we've noticed we fight when we don't do this now. It's one of those tools that it's prevented most of conflict.   I mean, we say it will on average for the most couples that use it. We have at least over 10,000 couples we know right now currently using it that are our members that they say it cuts conflict in half in half, because what you're doing is you're even scheduling that connection time or date night time where you're like, no matter how busy we are, when are Casey and Meygan going to get to be Casey and Meygan?   And that's so important, because again, if you're winging it and you're just trying to find time to connect, well, you've got four kids, we've got two teenagers. It's never going to happen. Right. And so, the weekly marriage business meeting is definitely one of the amazing and favorite worksheets and tools that we've taught and that we use ourselves because it works.   Casey Caston: (29:28 - 29:28)  Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (29:28 - 29:59)  What a game changer. That is awesome and so practical, so intentional, which we're all about. But then also we had talked about emotional intimacy earlier and emotional intimacy is interconnected with sexual intimacy and communication is the root issue.   And that's what you teach couples. So, what are some conversations that couples can begin so that they can grow in both of those types of intimacy and enjoyment?   Casey Caston: (30:01 - 31:34)  Yeah, so, I feel like I have to start off by saying I got this so wrong when we were first married. It's OK. I forgive you now.   Yeah, because, you know. Let's just let's be we'll be we'll be completely transparent. So, Meygan and I waited to have sex until we were married.   So, now I actually waited till I was married to have sex. And I thought that under that purity guideline, I was promised maybe by a youth group, maybe by a convention, that if you withhold sex and remain pure, God is going to bless you with the best sex life when you're married. And that just simply did not happen.   Like when we first got married, I really got went into the bedroom thinking. I don't know what foreplay is, but let's have intercourse until I come and then we're done. And that's sex. That's our sexual intimacy. And we missed out on so many intimate ways of knowing each other and sex being an obligation and something like I just was demanding of it from Meygan. And. What I've come to discover and what I love to teach other men is that sex is so much more broader than just having intercourse. I mean, there was this total understanding like, well, I feel good during intercourse. This feels very stimulating, which means that Meygan must feel the exact same way while we're having intercourse.   Meygan Caston: (31:35 - 31:35)  Nope.   Casey Caston: (31:36 - 32:35)  Because that's because listen, I never had sex before. But anytime I watched a rom com, you know, the guy threw up, you know, against the wall or they're having intercourse and she's going and he's going and they're having a great time. Like this must be what sex is all about.   And what I've discovered now and I get to teach other men is that emotional intimacy is kind of the birthplace of sexual expression of love, right? That we we create safe places for our wives to to open up. And because of that, they become more willing and wanting that that sexual expression rather than us just coming in and saying, OK, it's time for sex.   Let's go. And so, when we talk about just this book, this 365 Connecting Questions for Couples, I tell my guys, I'm like, hey, if you want to have great sex, start here because that is foreplay.   Meygan Caston: (32:35 - 33:48)  That's start here. It's good to know my heart, not just use me for my body, which can feel like that for a lot of people. And I think going back to the emotional intimacy, I think that, again, you had that when you were dating or you wouldn't have gotten married.   There was no way you were. If the person was boring, closed off, if, you know, your spouse was just completely on their phone every time, you wouldn't have had that second, third, fourth date. So, there was emotional intimacy at some point, which means you can't ever say we never had it.    You can always get it back, but you can have to be intentional. And I think a great way is we call it connection time. I think date night scares a lot of people.    I think it's the idea of. We have to go to a restaurant, we have to spend money, we have to find a babysitter, all these hurdles that you have to go through to make it happen, so then couples just don't even do it. So, we're like, listen, if you if that's overwhelming to you, then try connection time.    And really what that is, it's still undivided, you know, attention and time with you and your spouse. Maybe it's smaller, maybe it's 15 minutes, 30 minutes. And I know for when our kids were little, we played board games and card games and they'd go to bed, you know, at 7:30 or 8:00 PM.    And we would bring out Yahtzee.   Casey Caston: (33:48 - 33:51)  There'd be a lot of trash talking over chutes and ladders.   Meygan Caston: (33:52 - 34:29)  But we would play. We would play games. And it was our time to connect.    And when we didn't talk about the kids, you know, we just chatted about our day and again, going through some of these connecting questions that didn't even really exist yet, but they were in our heads. Taking a walk with the dog and, you know, going to a little local coffee shop, even if it's just 30 minutes and sharing and talking and exploring that emotional intimacy should never stop again. And that's going to give people opportunities to then go into the bedroom, like Casey mentioned, more willing and more excited to be intimate to each other because it's like, oh, that's right.    We like each other. We're still married. We're still friends.   Casey Caston: (34:29 - 35:15)  You bring up a great point. Like I said, I think sitting down over the table, staring at each other can be intimidating for a lot of guys, because especially if this is not a regular habit in your relationship and taking a walk for guys when we're doing something and maybe it's less intimidating because we're not even staring at each other. But that kind of like getting the, you know, oxytocin going, like getting moving, like that kind of adrenaline can actually stimulate guys for good conversations and processing things.    And so, what we hear from a lot of couples that take our book, maybe they'll take a picture of the question and they'll go, Hey, let's take a walk. And then they'll use the question on their walk.   Meygan Caston: (35:15 - 35:15)  Yeah.   Casey Caston: (35:15 - 35:24)  And that gets conversations going. So, if that's like a on ramp onto this, that's a that's a great starting point for a lot of people.   Laura Dugger: (35:24 - 36:48)  Oh, that's so good. And I love how you say just an on ramp, because the goal is more intimacy overall together to know one another, be known. And I love that you're showing this is not a manipulation factor.    This isn't ask these questions so we can be more active in the bedroom, regardless of whichever spouse is the higher desire one. But this is to really enhance all levels of your relationship. And as you talk about oxytocin, it just makes me think such an interesting cycle that the Lord created where I will speak more stereotypically that where women require the emotional connection and then they open up and enjoy sex more.    But then men, once they've had sex and they just have this like 500 percent increase of oxytocin in this neurochemical bath that opens them up emotionally. And we could see it even as we view our differences. You could be upset because they're opposite or we can see it as a gift that they can fuel one another.    And then we get more of a holistic picture of overall intimacy. So, I'll also link to quite a few episodes because we do about one per month where we dive deeper into sexual intimacy. S   o, I can link all of those in the show notes.    But Casey, were you going to say something?   Meygan Caston: (36:49 - 36:50)  I want to say something to it.   Casey Caston: (36:51 - 37:16)  He loves. Well, so, we're talking chicken and egg, right? Like who gets the emotional intimacy, who gets the physical intimacy first?    And I just think that there's if we approach our relationship with selfishness, well, then neither people get satisfied. But if we are in an approach to serve one another and be selfless lovers. So, men would be like, you know what?    I want to meet my wife's emotional needs.   Meygan Caston: (37:16 - 37:16)  Yeah.   Casey Caston: (37:17 - 37:38)  Like and I do believe that men are the spark of initiation. If you're a husband out there listening to this, like that one of your greatest gifts to marriage is initiation. You were the one who asked for the first date.    You were the one who got down one the knee. You are the spark of initiation. And I believe that God's created women as nurturers of that initiation.   Meygan Caston: (37:39 - 37:41)  And to clarify, you're not talking just about initiating sex.   Casey Caston: (37:41 - 37:43)  Well, yes. Just everything.   Meygan Caston: (37:43 - 37:55)  Initiating, just initiating, initiating a weekly marriage business meeting. Women are so turned on by when a husband's like, hey, I don't necessarily know what we want to do for a date night, but I want to take you on a date. Can I get an amen, Laura?   Laura Dugger: (37:55 - 37:56)  Right, sister?   Meygan Caston: (37:57 - 38:14)  Hey, women are turned on. Listen, men, women are turned on. If you say, you know what?    I know that like this has been an issue with my parents and I don't even know how to handle it, but I really want to have that conversation. Oh, my gosh. Just initiating the conversation is all we're looking for.    It's OK that you don't have all the answers.   Casey Caston: (38:14 - 38:14)  Yeah.   Meygan Caston: (38:14 - 38:23)  But for men that avoid stonewall, escape, numb out, busy themselves, it is such a turnoff. It is so not what we want.   Laura Dugger: (38:23 - 39:55)  I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit theSavvySauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Heinrichsen from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities. And we are thrilled with the final product.    So, I hope you check it out there. You're going to find all of our podcasts now with show notes and transcriptions listed a scrapbook of various previous guests and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nation with the good news of Jesus Christ.    So, make sure you visit theSavvySauce.com.    Okay, so, then continue the conversation with just overall intimacy. What are some examples of de-escalation techniques that you recommend to couples who are in conflict, ones that can maybe help the strained relationships so that they can be repaired?  Yeah.   Meygan Caston: (39:55 - 42:19)  Yeah. So, a big thing that I've learned as someone who's very direct, I can tend to be on that, like I mentioned, fighter side. And I know a lot of women, studies have shown 75 percent of us ladies are the ones that typically bring up the issues.    So, just be aware that there is a gender difference there. And if you're a dude, there's nothing wrong with you if you're in, you know, that 75 percent or 25 percent. But I think the biggest thing I've recognized is to remind your spouse in the very beginning of the conversation, why you're having the conversation.    You know, I love you. I love us. I want to see us be the best people that we can be.    I want to see us enjoy marriage and enjoy life. I love you. Like bring the positivity and the reminder that you're better together than apart.    And really, that's part of what we call a soft startup, right? There's a lot of different soft startups you've heard of. You know, I feel when you I need those work to but I like to take it a little bit deeper to say, remind your spouse how much that you love being married to them.    Or again, whatever the issue is like we have the most. Let's say it's parenting. Casey and I are very different in our parenting styles.    Last night would have been a great difference of how that happened. But like reminder that like we both love our children. We both want the best for our kids.    No one doubts that. We both have made we made two beautiful, wonderful, quirky children. Right.    And so, even you can start the conversation with that. But I wish that more people did that because I think people are are, you know, I'm really upset about something. OK, well, the second you say that defenses, sorry, but defenses are going to go up.    We want to keep the conversations defenses low, guards low, right, de-escalation. And so, use soft startups, use kind, positive language. But I think another thing behind that would be come to the conversation processed.    Do not have these conversations 11 o'clock at night when you're tired or when you're hungry. Do not have these conversations when it just happened and you haven't had the time to just like stop. Think about what do I really need?    Why did that trigger me? What am I hoping to achieve? Why is my husband acting this way?    Oh, is he under a lot of stress? Yeah, we got to give ourselves time to sit and process before we even use those soft startups. So, that would be my advice for de-escalation.   Casey Caston: (42:20 - 43:04)  And mine actually would be an apology. I think that we all make mistakes. And when you think about a couple that's maybe living reactively, just winging it, I doubt that there's ever an apology that's given on either side because it takes a little it takes awareness to recognize, gosh, you know what?    My that little comment I just made that probably had a little zing to it. Or, you know, I really let my spouse down by not parenting the children the way she would want me to. Or, you know, I said I was going to do something and I didn't.    And I let my partner down. You want to de-escalate a tense situation. Apologize.   Meygan Caston: (43:04 - 43:04)  Yeah. Own it.   Casey Caston: (43:05 - 43:12)  When you apologize, you know, you're taking all of the heat out of the fire. They really are.   Meygan Caston: (43:12 - 43:16)  And you're validating your spouse's feelings. Who doesn't want to be validated and seen? Everybody does.   Casey Caston: (43:16 - 43:38)  And then you're taking responsibility and accountability for your actions, which is the trust builder for relationships. So, that's why when you talk about high conflict relationships, there aren't a lot of there's not a lot of trust there. It's not a safe place anymore.    So, to create that safety, we want to we want to build trust back into the relationship.   Laura Dugger: (43:39 - 43:50)  Those are fantastic. And do you guys just have maybe a handful of ideas for ways that couples can strengthen their marriage with one another?   Meygan Caston: (43:51 - 44:09)  Absolutely. I would say, obviously, the weekly marriage business meeting. I mean, I know we talked about it, but the important thing is to schedule it, put it in the calendar because you don't want to wing it.    And that way it's showing, oh, you're prioritizing us. Taking walks has been a big one for us. Playing games is a big one.   Casey Caston: (44:09 - 45:18)  The 60 second blessing is where we intentionally spend time. 60 seconds reminding our partner of how much we love them, using our words to say, like, I saw how hard you work for the family. I love how you take care of the kids and kind of reminding your partner, like I see the goodness in each other.    I think it's really important because. Day to day life, we can just be very transactional, and if we again, we have any sort of criticism or, you know, our words just are not flavored with life, well, proverb says, you know, our words have the power to give life or to give death. Right.    So, the words that we speak, if we evaluate. Are we producing what I call weed seeds? Or are we planting fruit trees?    Because weed seeds choke out the garden. Those sharp, critical words can leave your garden looking pretty shabby, whereas being intentional by speaking positive over each other. It's like planting fruit trees.    And who doesn't like a good, juicy orange? Right.   Meygan Caston: (45:18 - 47:15)  Well, and the 60 second blessing, you know, you start off by writing five to seven positive things you love about your spouse. And so, one spouse shares their list for 60 seconds and then the second spouse shares their list. And it's this habit that we actually started doing after our marriage intensive that we did as we were repairing our marriage because we had yeah, we had we had spoken such mean and harsh words or just a lot of roommate stuff.    And we needed that positivity. And it's a great foreplay tip, by the way, just to sit, sometimes sit down and go, I just need to tell you how wonderful you are. Like, who doesn't want to hear that about themselves?    I think another thing that Casey and I have recognized it is the only thing, by the way, Laura, in our marriage, the only thing that has ever stayed consistent. That's we have fun together. We laugh a lot, even in hard times.    Yeah, it wasn't as enjoyable, but we still had fun. And, you know, again, fun is different for everybody. We don't ever want to judge someone else's fun.    But we are constantly like we we are sarcastic. But that's for us because we have high trust levels. I usually tell couples if you're, you know, in a fair recovery or you have low trust levels, sarcasm is probably not great.    But we're very playful. We have again, we play a lot of fun games and we play ping pong and cornhole and we take our dogs on our dog on a walk. And we, you know, we're going to try to go ax throwing in April.    We've never done that before. Like there are fun that we've taken dance lessons. So, we like to think out of the box and do new things or things that we know that like how many games of Yahtzee have we played?    I don't even know. I mean, we've lost count. Or gin rummy, you know, I mean, we just play Sequence or Rummikub like we play them all.    And for that for us, that's really fun. We dance a lot. We love the 90's music.    Like get out your favorite playlist and just dance and sing and be goofy. Like I think if couples were to laugh and enjoy each other more and be able to laugh with themselves, I think that there would be more marriages that would stay together. Laura Dugger: (47:16 - 47:39)  That is something that I've even experienced in this time together. You guys are so fun to be around. And that's very life giving to others.    But I can see where it starts in that secret place between just the two of you, your best friend. And you share a lot of this goodness with Marriage 365. So, can you let us know all the different things that you have to offer?   Casey Caston: (47:40 - 48:48)  Yeah, I would probably say the number one way that people experience all of the resources that we've created over the years is through our mobile app. So, we have an app that has over a thousand pieces of videos, workshop, worksheet, excuse me, courses, challenges. We even have a checkup so you can actually rate kind of your marriage.    And that is a great way for people to be able to have access, you know, on the spot if they're dealing with an issue, they don't know how to get through and they're looking for a tool or a conversation to help them work through that. That our app provides such a valuable resource. I mean, beyond that, you know, some couples need a little bit more hands on approach.    So, we do coaching. We have a coaching staff actually to handle all the incoming couples that are saying, hey, can you can you help us out? And again, I just want to say coaching is really, really focused on giving action plans and homework and accountability to our clients.    And coaching is really, really helpful if you're like, I just need to know what to do next.   Meygan Caston: (48:48 - 49:17)  Yeah. We do intensives for couples that are in crisis, you know, there that are seriously considering separation or divorce or an affair recovery and that we have an over 90 percent success rate because we went through an intensive when we were struggling and it was something we knew we wanted to get trained on and do. And it's a full two days with Casey and I.    I mean, two days back-to-back. We know you. We get Christmas cards from all of our couples, you know, every year.    We love it. And it's they become almost I mean, yes, they're our clients, but they almost become like our friends.   Casey Caston: (49:17 - 49:45)  Yeah. And then probably personally, one of my favorite things that we do is we host our own couple's getaway. And this is a four-day experience.    It's not your it's not like a typical retreat where you're sitting in a conference room, you're just getting lectured all day. We're actually facilitating tools and then giving couples opportunities to work on them. Then some free time to really spend some time making great memories.    We have a dance party. It is a ton of fun.   Meygan Caston: (49:45 - 49:55)  We make sure. Yeah, we make sure it's fun. It's more it's definitely more for couples who are doing OK or want to do better, not they're not ideal for couples in crisis because it's going to be very uncomfortable.   Casey Caston: (49:55 - 49:56)  I love our retreats.   Meygan Caston: (49:56 - 49:57)  I know.   Casey Caston: (49:57 - 49:58)  I love interacting with her.   Meygan Caston: (49:58 - 50:05)  And of course, we have our social media. You can just search Marriage 365 and then we have our website, too. And we have our books, of course.   Casey Caston: (50:05 - 50:09)  Oh, and I have a men's group. I know I launched a five-week men's reset. . Meygan Caston: (50:09 - 50:34)  Needless to say, Laura, we're really busy. I do a lot. I think that's what's funny, right?    I think that people see us online and they think that we just have an Instagram, or we just have Facebook. And I'm like, we've been doing this for 12 years and we have a staff of 12 people. So, we reach a lot of people.    And we because marriage is never a one stop, you know, one size fits all. It's it's true. There are so many different dynamics, and we want to be able to help as many people as we can.   Laura Dugger: (50:35 - 50:59)  Wow. Thank you for sharing that. We will add all of those links.    I love all these different offerings that you have and that will meet people in whatever phase they're in. But you two already know we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Meygan Caston: (51:00 - 51:47)  Mine would be I would want every single person to think about becoming more confident. And that starts with becoming more self-aware. I think that that is completely changed who I am.   And I'm we're raising two kids, and I see the confidence that they have. And we're modeling that but also walking them through how to be self-aware. And really, that starts with having to be one with your thoughts, turning off the phone, sorry, turning off the podcast, sometimes turning off the music and just actually sitting and really going.    Do I really know my thoughts, my feelings, my values, my personality, my good, my bad, my ugly? And we don't do this enough. We are busy ourselves.    We're distracted constantly. And I think that it's really harming our mental health. And so, that would be my savvy sauce.   Casey Caston: (51:47 - 52:30)  Hmm. I love that, babe. It's kind of hard because we find so much alignment.    I mean, I would that's exactly what I would say, too. Um, I, you know, my focus in twenty, twenty-five has really been turned towards helping husbands. And there's a quote that Henry David Thoreau says that many men live lives of quiet desperation and they die with their songs still inside them.    And most guys are terrified of stopping and evaluating. And so, for me, creating space too. Listen, I do a 10, 10, 10 practice in the morning.   Meygan Caston: (52:30 - 52:32)  That's what I thought you were going to say.   Casey Caston: (52:32 - 52:32)  Yeah, yeah.   Meygan Caston: (52:32 - 52:36)  Well, I was like, I bet you he's going to talk about it because it's been life changing for you.   Casey Caston: (52:36 - 53:01)  Yeah. So, I spend 10 minutes of scripture reading. So, that's input.    Then I spend 10 minutes of quiet meditation where I'm sitting and I'm in a listening posture. And I mean, I think about everything from lasagna to the last wave I serve to. But there's intentionality about just opening myself like here I am.    I'm ready to be downloaded on like what you have for me today.   Meygan Caston: (53:01 - 53:02)  God be one with your thoughts.   Casey Caston: (53:03 - 53:18)  Yeah. And all sorts of things come up. And then I spent 10 minutes journaling.    And that process is just and that's like the output. Right. So, now I've got input.    I've been listening and now I get to write stuff out. And that's been a huge game changer for me.   Laura Dugger: (53:19 - 53:43)  Wow, I love both of those. You two are just refreshingly vulnerable and such an incredible mixture of intentional and lighthearted. And it has been so great just to sit under your teaching today.    So, thank you for sharing your story and for helping all of us. And thank you just for being my guests.   Meygan Caston: (53:43 - 53:45)  Oh, you're welcome. It was a pleasure to be here.   Casey Caston: (53:45 - 53:49)  Yes, you asked great questions that plumb the deep wells of Casey Meygan.   Laura Dugger: (53:52 - 57:35)  One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

Special Patreon Release: Wisdom from a Homeschooling Dad with Steve Lambert   Luke 6:40 (NI) "The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher."   *Transcription Below*   Questions and Topics We Discuss: What are some wonderful aspects of your lifestyle that are not available to families who are not home educating their children? What are some common questions you get about homeschool and what truth do you have to replace the myths? How long will prep take for the homeschooling parent and what does a typical schedule look like?   Steve Lambert has worn many hats in his 73 years: Pastor, author, speaker, stock broker and more. Together, he and his wife Jane Claire Lambert created and publish "Five in a Row" homeschool curriculum which has been a reader's choice favorite for nearly 30 years. They began homeschooling their children in 1981 and their seven grandchildren were homeschooled as well.   Five in a Row Website   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and Savvy Sauce Charities   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*     Music: (0:00 – 0:08)   Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:37) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria, and Savvy Sauce Charities.   Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know?   Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A, East Peoria.   You can also visit their website today at Chick-fil-A.com/EastPeoria.   I'm excited to introduce you to my fascinating guest, Steve Lambert.   Steve has a unique perspective, as he has worn various hats, such as pastor, author, speaker, stockbroker, and more.   But today, we're going to hear various stories of how God has been faithful in calling he and his wife, Jane, to homeschool, and also publish homeschool curriculum called Five in a Row.   Regardless of our family schooling choice, these stories will build up our faith and remind us who we get to turn to in all things.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Steve.   Steve Lambert: (1:37 - 1:39) Good morning. It's great to be with you, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (1:40 - 1:53) Well, you are a part of a multi-generational homeschooling family.   So, will you begin our time by taking us back to that initial decision that you and your wife made to home educate your children?   Steve Lambert: (1:54 - 3:31) Sure, I'd love to. We made that decision back in 1981. I'm sure probably you and many of your listeners were not even born in 1981. But my wife came to me and she said, "So, hypothetically, what would you think if…” and my response was something like, "That cannot possibly be legal."   Because at that point, we knew no one who homeschooled. We never met a homeschooler.   I don't, you know, it was just completely foreign to my understanding. But I began to pray about it.   And as I did, I felt like the Lord said, "You're accountable for how you raise your children."   And I thought, well, if I'm accountable, then I ought to have some idea of how they're being raised.   Because, frankly, in a classroom, 95% of their lives are spent there in the classroom.   And they get home on the activity bus at 5:15 and eat dinner and go up and do their homework.   And that's the end of the day. And so, I thought, alright, maybe that's a good plan.   Now, parenthetically, let me add that it wasn't until a couple of years later, I felt like the Lord spoke to me and said, "And your children are accountable for how they turn out," which was profoundly important to me at the time.   Because we've all known great families who produce train wrecks for kids.   And we've known some train wreck parents who produce great kids. But we're accountable for how we raise our kids.   And I thought, if I'm going to have to sit for the final exam before the Lord of Heaven, I'd like to at least have some input in some part and at least know how they were raised. So, that was beginning in 1981.   Laura Dugger: (3:32 - 3:43) That is incredible, because you had no idea.   I'm even getting goosebumps just thinking now of where your family is at from that decision.   And could you catch us up to speed? How many children do you have?   Steve Lambert: (3:44 - 4:25) We had two daughters. We kind of left that in the Lord's hand. And that's what we ended up with. And my wife would have loved to have more, but we ended up with two daughters.   And between them, they have six daughters and one grandson. So, we have seven grandkids.   Several of them are through homeschooling now, college or career. The youngest at this point is six.   So, they're third-generation homeschoolers, which I think speaks to the validity of the homeschooling option for many people. You know it's worked successfully when your children want to homeschool their children rather than running as far away from homeschooling as they could possibly get.   Laura Dugger: (4:27 - 4:38) Well, and even going back then to 1981, you were questioning at that point, is this even legal?   So, catch us up. At that time, were there any legalities that you were up against?   Steve Lambert: (4:40 - 8:42) Then, like now, it really does depend on the state where you reside.   And Missouri has always been fairly homeschool-friendly. That said, within about a year after we began, our oldest daughter had been in public school in K-1 and had been in a private Christian school for one semester of second grade before we began the decision to homeschool.   And someone, presumably a family member I suspect, turned us into Family Services for Educational Neglect Child Abuse.   So, we had that dreaded knock at the door, and DFS came and had to inspect the children, make sure that they weren't bruised or harmed in any way, and then begin kind of the prosecutorial process against us.   But eventually they realized they really didn't have much say, so they turned the case over to the superintendent of schools.   And we happened to live in the same district where Jane and I had become high school sweethearts.   So, we hired an attorney, and we went and had a meeting with the superintendent of schools.   I often tell the story and describe him as being an older gentleman.   Now, in reality, compared to me today at age 73, he was probably only 60. He was a young fellow of about 60. But when you're 30, that seems pretty old.   And he had a couple of PhDs in education and administration, and he said, "You know, I strongly disagree with the choice you've made," but unfortunately, we had had our daughter tested using standardized testing just prior to that, and he compared her test scores after a year of homeschooling with her test scores when she had been in his public school classrooms, and she had improved significantly in every subject area.   So, he said, "I'm not going to cause you any problems, but I still think you're making a serious mistake." And the footnote to that story was lived out less than a year later when my phone rang, and it was the superintendent of schools.   And he said, "Mr. Lambert, can I speak with you frankly?" And I thought, oh boy, here we go. He said, "I don't know if you're aware of this, but we're having some problems in public education."   And I said, "No, not, I can't believe that. Really, doctor?"   And he goes, "No, we really are. Test scores are declining. Parents are unhappy. Faculties are unhappy. Administrations are unhappy. Students are unhappy. And I put together a blue-ribbon panel of educational experts for six weeks this summer to discuss how can we reface and reimagine education in our district. And you seem to have a very unique perspective on education, Mr. Lambert. Would you consider being a part of that panel?"   And I said, "I would."   And so, I went to the first meeting. They all introduced themselves and they all had lots and lots and lots of letters after their name.   One was the director of curriculum development, another the director of elementary testing, another the director of high school counseling.   And finally, I introduced myself and said, "Hi, I'm Stephen Lambert. I'm a homeschool dad." And every head in the room turned to look at me sitting in the back because up until that point, as far as I know, none of those men and women had ever seen a homeschooler and lived to tell about it.   So, they began the journey. The first night of the discussion and the person in charge of the summer series said, "You know, we can all make a long list of things that are wrong with public education, but let's not start there. Let's start on a positive note as we explore this difficult topic. Number one, responsibility for educating children rests with the state."   And I raised my hand and I said, "That's not right."   And he said, "What do you mean that's not right?"   And I said, "No, the responsibility for raising and educating children rests with their parents and only insofar as they choose to delegate some or all of their authority to you, does the state have anything to say about it?"   And he said, "Let's take a brief recess." So, it's probably just as well that I didn't tell him that God told me that because that would have made his head explode completely.   But anyway, that was 40 years ago. So, lots of water under the bridge since then in public education, I'm sorry to say has not gotten better, but instead it's gotten worse.   Laura Dugger: (8:44 - 9:07) Well, and I think within that, you've even brought up some questions that people have about homeschooling families when you first were talking about the standardized tests.   So, do you get these questions? A lot of times, do your children have any friends?   Did they grow up socialized or how did they compare to their peers?   Those types of things that there may be an underlying myth.   Steve Lambert: (9:09 - 11:20) Oh, for sure. Those are the common questions. I was so ignorant of homeschooling in 1981 that I didn't even notice. I didn't even know the word socialization.   I was too ignorant to even know that, but I did know friendship.   And in fact, I prayed and I asked the Lord, I said, "How are my kids going to have friends if they're homeschooled?"   And as you and some of your listeners may understand, I felt like the Lord spoke to me, not audibly, but in a sense that I clearly understood his heart.   And he said, "Do you want friends for your children?"   And I said, "Yes, Lord, of course I do more than anything."   And he said, "And so friends come from being in the midst of people." And I went, yes.   And then I paused and I could sense him kind of waiting on me. And I said, "Don't they?"   And I felt like the Lord said, "No, if you want friends for your children, ask me. I'm the author of friendship."   And he reminded me of David and Jonathan, for example.   He said, in my imagination, at least he said, "This very night, I can hear the prayers of tens of thousands of people around the earth who are surrounded by people, but who are contemplating suicide this very night because they're so lonely. Friends don't come from being in large groups. Friends come from heaven, ask me."   And so, that became a prayer. And neither of our children, none of our grandchildren have ever lacked for friends, lots of friends, close and intimate friends through sports, through music, through their church connections.   And it really has turned out to be true that friendship, whether you're an adult, a child, or a teen, if you're lacking friends in your life right now, getting involved in more and more people and more and more busyness isn't necessarily the answer.   Just stop and ask the Lord, "Lord, I'm lonely. I need some friends in my life. Would you bring me some?"   And our daughter's first close friend, after I prayed that prayer was a number of months later.   It was a little girl who had immigrated all the way from South Africa.   Her father had immigrated to the United States after becoming a believer to attend a Bible college and then came to Kansas City to attend a seminary.   And his daughter became my daughter's best friend, but she came from halfway around the globe.   And since then, there've been so many that we couldn't count them all.   Laura Dugger: (11:22 - 11:49) Wow. Steve, that is such a powerful and encouraging parenting tip, really just in every phase that we know where to turn and that God is the one who actually has the power to make these prayers answered.   So, thank you for sharing that. What would you say are some wonderful aspects of your lifestyle that were not available to families who were not home educating their children?   Steve Lambert: (11:50 - 14:20) You get to see your kids come to life, to discover who they are and why they were made and to watch them learn to read and to watch them explore and discover God's amazing creation in the world around them.   You can travel with your kids. If you're homeschooling, you can take them wherever you go and you can have school in the car or school in the park or school at the lake.   My kids, instead of reading about some of the national parks and reading about some of the great museums in America, we went and we saw them firsthand and in the process we got to see them begin to blossom and figure out who they were and why they were created.   We're seeing with all that's happening today, a struggle that really so much boils down to children and teenagers and young adults having absolutely no idea who they are and they're questioning everything from their gender to their faith, to philosophy, to finances, to all those kinds of ecological issues.   They really have no idea who they are and it's because in the classroom, nobody ever teaches them.   You know, it says in Luke 6:40, "that a student is not greater than his teacher, but when he is fully trained, a student will be like his teacher."   Discipleship is really about teaching and if you're not disciplining your children, somebody is.   And in a public-school classroom, the wisdom of Dr. Luke suggests that your children will grow up to be just like their teachers and that's exactly what we're seeing in today's culture.   So, if you want to have some input, if you want to see your children blossom, I mean, there's nothing more exciting than seeing your children learn to read for the first time and it's not that difficult.   I mean, I often tell parents if you were trapped on a desert island, just you and your child, could you teach them to read?   Well, sure you could. You take a stick and you make the letter A in the sand and you'd say, this is an A and then this is a B and this is the number two and this is the number three.   There's nothing more rewarding at the end of life. And I can say this at age 73, I can say this without any reservation.   The single most important thing you can do is to trust your life to Jesus.   The second most important thing you can do is find somebody who's like-minded and marry them and make that marriage work through thick and through thin.   And the third most important thing you'll ever do is raising your children and watching them become the men and women God created and take their place in a dying culture.   Laura Dugger: (14:22 - 14:42) And you have years of wisdom journeying through being a homeschooling dad.   And so, again, I would love to hear more about your journey. So, if we go back to 1981, I'm assuming that all of the curriculum was not available that we have available today.   And so, how did you and your wife practically live this out?   Steve Lambert: (14:44 - 22:14) Well, you're right, Laura. There wasn't any of the curriculum, which in many respects was a blessing.   To be honest, there's so much material out there today. It's a little overwhelming.   If you go to some of the larger homeschool conventions, you can find as many as seven or 800 vendors there, each telling why their particular curriculum is the one that you ought to choose.   But back then there were no choices. And in fact, we contacted a couple of Christian curriculum publishers and asked to buy their materials.   And they said, "No, we can't sell you because that would upset our Christian school customers because they had the exclusive right to this material."   And so, we began with a old set of world books and a stack of children's reading books.   And I think we did go to the yard sale, and we found an American history book that was published, I think in 1943. And so, it was somewhat incomplete because it didn't explain who won World War II.   It just kind of ended in the middle of the war, but we began that journey.   And what we discovered was that God consistently brought us the tools, the resources, and the people that our children needed.   I would come home on certain days and I'd find Jane kind of crying in her bedroom and the girls crying in their bedroom.   And because they were, we were trying to replicate school at home. And that's completely the wrong direction.   Well, it turns out we didn't want school at home. We wanted homeschooling, which is an entirely different proposition.   And so, on that journey, Jane began to pray. And she said, "Lord, this is not what I had in mind for our children. I did not imagine that we would be fighting and arguing over. You will do your homework. I won't. You can't make me. Yes, I can. How can I teach my children?"   And he said, "Why don't you read to them?" And she said, "Well, I do read to them, but how can I teach them?"   And he said, "Why don't you read to them?" She said, "No, no, I understand. I love to read to them, but how do I teach them?"   And he said, "Why don't you read to them?" And so, after the third time, they began focusing more on reading aloud.   And that just naturally led to the entire world around us. It doesn't really matter what you're reading.   God gave educators and parents a secret weapon, and it's called curiosity.   And so, if you can engage that curiosity and you read them a story, it doesn't matter what three bears, and suddenly they want to know more about bears.   And how does this hibernation thing work and where do they live? And do we have any near our home?   And can you find bears? And what's the difference between a black bear and a grizzly bear? And how long do they live? And what do they eat?   And suddenly you become the guide rather than the opposing force.   Suddenly you begin to sit on the same side of the desk with your students and you go on a learning journey together, because particularly in those early years up to middle school, really the only lessons, the lesson that you really need to teach children is to fall in love with learning.   If they learn that you're home free, because they will self-direct and self-educate right on through high school, graduate school, they'll be lifelong learners.   But if you reduce education to nothing more than carrots and sticks and dangling promises and threats, they will quickly learn that learning is not fun.   And we just need to get through this as quickly as we can so that we can get on with life and the things that are truly important.   And if you doubt that, I often tell parents who are contemplating homeschooling, if you doubt that, just look in the mirror, go back and just think about, for example, your fifth grade social studies exam.   Tell me who the Norman Conqueror was. When did the Norman Conquest take place? How did that change European history?   And you'll say, wow, I remember. I've heard of the Norman Conqueror, the Norman Conquest, but honestly, I don't remember it yet.   Why not? Because honestly, I just learned it long enough to take the test. And then I forgot. And your kids are just like you. Many attribute Einstein with the saying that doing the same thing the same way and expecting some sort of a different result is insane.   So, it stands to reason if you teach your kids the same way you were taught to memorize names and dates and highlight pages and books for Friday's quiz, they'll end up with the same results.   They won't particularly be interested in learning. They won't remember 99% of all the things that you checked off your checklist that you covered with the children, but they don't remember any of it.   So, through reading, that opened the door for the girls to begin to ask questions.   And suddenly, like I said, instead of being in that tug of war, where as a parent or a teacher, you're trying to force children to memorize and regurgitate long enough to take a test, you suddenly become a resource person and you take them to the library and you take them to the natural history museum and you take them to the art gallery and you take them on nature hikes in the woods.   And one question always begets ten more. I remember that when my oldest daughter, her firstborn was about two or three and she was getting ready for bed and in the bathtub and she said, "Mama, can I ask you a question?"   And my daughter said, "No." She said, "Please, mama, just one question."   She said, "No, honey, you've already had your 472 questions for today. Mama's exhausted. Finish your bath. Let's go to bed. You can ask a question tomorrow."   She said, "Please, mama, please. Just one more question." She said, "All right, one more question. And then it's bedtime."   She goes, "Okay. So, like, how does electricity work, mom?"   So, that curiosity that God gave those children is the spark that makes homeschooling, not only a joy, but makes it infinitely doable.   Whether you dropped out of high school or whether you have a doctorate in education, if you can keep that curiosity alive, your kids are going to be great.   And let me add one other thought. We live in a world, the dean of a medical school, school of medicine at a university told me not too long ago, he said, "Do you realize that the body of knowledge of the human body doubles every year?"   We learned more in 2022 about the human body than we had learned in all of history through 2021. And he said, we get the best and the brightest, the top one tenth of 1% who come here to medical school.   And there's no way they can possibly keep up with the amount of new knowledge that's being developed.   And if you ask someone who has a doctorate in any subject, the most tempting question to ask is, so you must know pretty much everything there is to know about that.   And if they're even remotely honest, the first thing they'll say to you is, "Oh no, no, no, no. The farther we explore, the deeper we get, the more we realize we haven't even scratched the surface. There's so much we don't understand. The more we learn, the more we realize how much we yet have to learn."   And so, that's an infinite loop of getting children to begin to manage their own education. We've said for years, you know, he got the best education money could buy, or they gave him the best education.   You can't give a child an education. They're education resistant.   The child has to learn to want to know, to be hungry and thirsty to know more about the world that God created around them and how it works.   And homeschooling is a wonderful vehicle to make a lifetime learning out of your son or your daughter.   Laura Dugger: (22:15 - 28:23) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria?   Yes, you heard that right. Free college education. 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Now, back to the show.   The more I learn about homeschooling, the more encouragement I've heard from homeschooling parents, they will talk about there is always a learning gap no matter how you were educated.   And so, I love how you're addressing that with lifelong curiosity that we will continue learning our whole life.   But you also mentioned this word, if parents are considering homeschooling, you said it's so doable.   And when you're talking about Jane hearing from the Lord, read to your children, I find that so encouraging.   That's my favorite activity to do with our girls. That was the impetus for your family launching Five in a Row.   Is that right?   Steve Lambert: (28:24 - 32:17) That is right. Over a period of time, Jane certainly did math mechanics in a math workbook, and she used some specific structured approach to phonics to teach reading.   But other than that, it was largely an open palette in which reading helped direct the course of education.   And that became something that many of her homeschool friends as the years went by found enviable.   They said, "You know, how does that work?" And she said, "Well, you just read aloud to your children, and then there's opportunities in an illustrated book to talk about the illustrations, the perspective, vanishing point, type of colors, the difference between watercolor and gouache, complementary colors on the color wheel, history, where did our story take place, what's it like, where is it on the map, what do people eat there?"   And they said, “Yeah, we don't get that.” So, she began to just really as kind of a love gift for a few girlfriends, began to write some lesson plans to go with some popular children's books.   And one thing led to another, and that was in 1994. So, this is our 29th year in publication, and I think Five in a Row has won pretty much every award that's out there, from Reader's Awards, Magazine Awards.   It's more than 100,000 families, 600,000 children have used Five in a Row in the last 29 years, and virtually no advertising.   It's almost exclusively by word of mouth, from a veteran homeschool mom pulling aside a young mom who just spent $1,300 on a massive stack of curriculum and is completely overwhelmed just three weeks into September, to say, you know what, we tried that, and we tried this, and we tried this other program, and we spent a lot of money.   And then an older mom told me about Five in a Row , let me show you how it works.   And suddenly that changes everything for so many of these young moms.   Most of the problems that new homeschoolers are facing simply are not issues at all. And the crazy part is that there are some things they ought to be worrying about, but they don't know enough yet to worry about the correct areas.   But both the obvious and the more subtle areas, God has answers.   If he's invited you to go on the homeschool journey, he has something amazing in mind for your family.   There are very few born homeschoolers, very few 15- or 16-year-old adolescent young women tell their school counselor, "You know what, I'd like to spend my life living in a two-income world on a single income and stay locked up with little people all day long without any peer support and have my mother-in-law and my sister-in-law think I'm crazy."   That's not on most young women's radars, but it begins, for most families, the same way it began for our family.   Hypothetically, honey, what would you think if, as the finger of God, the same God that said, let the waters be parted, the one that said, Lazarus, come forth, the one that said, let there be light, says, "Why don't you homeschool your kids?"   And so, you become what we often call accidental homeschoolers.   It suddenly occurs to you something that you swore you would never, ever do.   But the good news is the one who invited you is faithful. Love is a powerful motivator.   We all have stuff, and God has tried to make us deal with our stuff for years, and we've been resistant in many cases.   So, he invites us to the covenant of marriage so that we'll have a living witness to remind us of our stuff.   Honey, why do you always wait to the last minute? Honey, why do you get so upset?   And if we're still stubborn, then he invites us to have children so that we have several living witnesses.   But if we remain stiff-necked, finally he invites us to homeschool with children. And this way we have a house full of living witnesses all day long that say, "Mama, how come this and why do you do that?"   And suddenly we begin to grow in ways we never thought possible through the medium of homeschooling. It strengthens marriages.   It grows us up in Christ. It causes us to deal with our stuff.   It's amazing what it does for our children.   Laura Dugger: (32:18 - 32:44) It does seem like progressive sanctification, how the Lord has built that in within the family.   And I just appreciate how you've gone before us. And so, if someone's feeling nudged in this direction, can you paint a picture, even using Five in a Row curriculum, what kind of prep would that require for the homeschooling parent?   And what kind of schedule would their day look like?   Steve Lambert: (32:46 - 39:39) Homeschooling is essentially tutorial education, and that's always been the realm of kings and the super wealthy who hired an individual tutor for their children.   Because of homeschooling, our children can have a tutor. And tutorial education is so inherently efficient that even if you're terrible at it, your kids are going to do pretty darn well. So, when we start out, we're tempted to emulate the classroom. So, we think, well, my daughter's six.   She was going to go into first grade, so we need to start at 7:45 in the morning and we need to go until 3:45 in the afternoon with 20 minutes for lunch.   Nothing could be further from the truth. You can work with a kindergarten or first grader; 90 minutes a day is probably overkill.   So, it's something that anybody can do in their schedule, at least in those early years. And it works best when it works for you and for your children.   If your kiddo is a late-morning sleeper, trust me, they're not going to be at their best at 7:45. Don't let them sleep until 9:30. That's okay. You'll realize, for example, when you have teenagers, that they don't come to life until sometime after 11:00 p.m.   That's when they want to come into your bedroom and ask you important life questions when you're struggling to try to get to sleep.   So, first of all, you work with your children's schedule to some degree.   You work with the schedule that works for you. And you work where it works for you. If you're sick or if you're dealing with morning sickness and pregnancy, homeschool's going to happen in the bed today, kids.   Come on, gather around. We're going to read a story.   If it's a nice day, homeschooling is going to happen at the park today.   We're going to go on a nature hike. We're going to look at trees and wildlife and streams and rocks and waters.   And we're going to learn to take our paints with us.   And we're going to learn to paint the sky the way the illustrator did in our story this week that we're reading in Five in a Row.   When Jane began, she actually would take the girls to a cemetery nearby where everything was beautifully mowed and there were beautiful trees and lakes.   So, Five in a Row is built around the concept of reading a classic children's book, which Jane has selected thoughtfully and curated.   And you read it for five days in a row.   And so, on the first day, you're going to read the story aloud.   And the children just want to know how did the story ended, what happened?   A very surface, cursory reading of the story, really thinking only about the plot.   But, you know, as you go back and watch a movie the second or the third time or read a book sometimes or play the second or third time, you discover there's a whole lot more beneath the surface.   So, the first day they look at, on Mondays they do social studies.   So, they look at the setting of the story. Where did it take place?   How did people live in the 17th century? How did people live today in Japan or Australia?   How did people live along the Ohio River in the 1800s? What sort of foods did they eat? What was their language like? Let's find it on a map.   Let's learn more about it and maybe plan to cook a meal from that region or that period of history later in the week for the family.   And you can make that as complex as you want.   You can have the children make shopping lists and invitations and invite Grandma and Grandpa and help cook the meal and learn liquid and dry measure and cups and quarts and all of that and put a towel over their arm and serve the meal to Grandma and Grandpa and tell them about what they learned about Spain or Italy or France or Canada this week.   So, now you've read the story and you've learned something about what's going on in the story.   So, Tuesday, we go back and we read it a second time.   This time we look at language arts, so new vocabulary words that came up in our story this week, new creative writing techniques that maybe there was a cliffhanger that made us want to turn the page and read and see what was next or maybe the author was really great at asking questions or writing dialogue or opening sentences that create curiosity.   And so, we learned some of those techniques, and we can try them ourselves.   And even a four- or five-year-old can dictate while Mom writes down their story, and they can illustrate it later and share it with Dad.   And then on Wednesday, we look at the art. So, what did the artist teach us? What medium did they use?   Was this charcoal? Was it pen and ink? Was it watercolor or gouache? Was it oils or pastels?   How did they draw the water? Look, they drew reflections on the water. It's not just blue paper, is it?   You can see the same colors in the water that were on the shore on the opposite side.   You know what, kids? Let's get out your colored pencils or your crayons or your pastels.   Let's try drawing water more realistically the way the illustrator taught us in our story today.   And maybe learn something about famous artists who had similar styles of Degas or Renoir or Van Gogh or whoever.   Thursday, we do applied mathematics, which is not the same as math.   You're going to be doing math for 15 to 30 minutes every day in a sequential approach.   But this is about learning, you know, the difference between a square and a rectangle.   Well, they have four sides, but what's the difference? They're not all equal on the rectangle, are they?   We're going to learn, like I said, how many pints in a quart, how many quarts in a gallon.   And then on Fridays, we do science lessons. So, there's lots of opportunities in every children's book to learn more about why does the sky look blue?   Why is the grass green? Why do some things float when you put them in the water and some things sink?   And all of a sudden, you're at the kitchen sink with a stopper in it.   You fill it with water, and you've gotten a penny and a cork and a birthday candle and whatever is in the kitchen junk drawer.   And suddenly, the kids are learning about buoyancy, and they're testing things, and they're predicting their answers, learning more about the world of science and creation.   So, typical day, long story short, for a beginning homeschooler with a kindergarten-aged child, probably going to be 15, 20 minutes maybe for phonics, 15 to 20 minutes for math, which at that level is simply learning the digits and haven't even thought about adding yet.   And then another 30 open-ended minutes, 30 minutes to 90 minutes for exploring Five in a Row or whatever it is that you're reading that day.   And for some days, that might turn into two hours.   In fact, there are some days where it turns into all the way to bedtime and continues over the next two days.   If you're learning about the solar system, and suddenly that catches their attention, and they want to go to the planetarium nearby, and they want to borrow their uncle's telescope, they eat, sleep, and drink astronomy for the next two or three days.   And frankly, that's not an interruption in the curriculum. That's the answer to a prayer.   God, please help my children grow curious. Help them nurture their love of learning. Cause them to want to learn.   And sooner or later, we're going to learn about astronomy anyway, but all too often, it's while the kids are fascinated by a bug that just crawled in the room.   And so, the smart mom puts astronomy on the shelf for the moment and learns about insects. Or vice versa.   You're trying to learn about insects, and they're staring out the window looking at moons still visible in the western sky that hasn't set yet.   So, helping children learn in the proper season is another key to making it all work. It's so flexible, and it's so simple.   Laura Dugger: (39:41 - 40:33) Guess what? We are no longer an audio-only podcast.   We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos.   We're on YouTube, and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.   Well, that flexibility sounds so freeing and attractive, and as you explain it, it just sounds like such a lovely educational experience.   And yet, I know a lot of homeschooling parents fear is that when their children graduate from the home, they wonder if they've done enough and how they'll perform out in, quote, the real world.   So, what was your experience as you and Jane launched your first child to college?   Steve Lambert: (40:35 - 46:24) Well, we actually sent our first one to college a week after she was 16. And to be honest, I wouldn't recommend that again for a variety of reasons.   She had a four-point-something or other GPA in college beginning at just barely 16. But being academically ready and being emotionally ready are two different things.   And so, probably, if for no other reason, we missed out on two more years of just exploring and learning together in home education.   But when she went, she was the top of her class pretty much in every subject.   Almost every study done of homeschool students by private industry and government suggests that students, on average, score about 20% higher if they were home-educated in every subject except math, where they're about the same, than their public school peers.   And it's now been more than 20 years since Harvard set out, and they kind of were one of the earliest ones to create full-time recruiters for homeschool students because universities and the marketplace are looking today for homeschoolers.   They realize that these kids are the leaders today. I saw a study of a small private university, I think in the Carolinas, if I recall, and they only had 3,000 students on campus, of which 90 were homeschooled, so 3% of the student body.   But of the 12 elected student leadership positions, student advisor to the dean, senior class president, whatever, 11 of the 12 were homeschool students.   So, even their peers recognized that these were the leaders in their community.   And we now live in a world where nobody seems to want to work. Everywhere you go, there's help-wanted signs.   And we've seen so many stories from friends and customers whose children were homeschooled who said it's a tremendous opportunity right now in the marketplace if you just show up and you're just semi-dedicated to actually doing the job.   I interviewed a guy, well, he actually came up to ask me questions after I spoke, in Chicago, as a matter of fact.   And he was the head of human resources for a large Fortune 50 company, and he said he had, I don't know, a quarter of a million employees.   And so, I asked him, I said, so this is in May, you're out recruiting, I assume.   And he says, “Yeah, I've got six recruiting teams crisscrossing American college campuses trying to recruit new employees.”   And I said, “So you're obviously looking for the highest-grade point average or highest graduating class position and competing for those students.”   He said, “No, not at all.” And I said, no? I said, “So IQ or SAT score?”   He goes, “No, none of that.” I said, “Why?” He said, “Let me tell you something.”   He said, “The average new hire costs us $70,000 to train. And this has been 15 years ago.   So, it's probably 170,000 a day. And no matter what your discipline, whether you're in sales, marketing, quality control, engineering, whatever, we're gonna spend the first year teaching you how we do it here, not how you learned it in college.   If we aren't successful in our recruiting, our company will go bankrupt. This is our largest single expense is personnel.”   And we have learned over the years that graduating class position or grade point average or SAT score IQ is totally irrelevant when it comes to determining who'll be successful in the company and who won't.   And I was a little taken aback and I said, “Well, if it's not any of those things, then you just throw darts at resumes?”   He goes, “No, no, no.” He said, “We can accurately identify these students in the most cases.” I said, “So what do you look for?” And he said, “Well, you're gonna laugh.” I said, “Maybe.” He said, “First and foremost, by far and away, the ability to get along and work well with others.”   He said, “If you can't, you're gonna get cross ways of your boss or another employee and either quit or get fired in the first six months.   The second is to be able to complete a job, see it through to completion and meet the deadline.   And number three, if you're really, really golden, the ability to work within the constraints of a budget.   Those are the things that are successful, whether you work for our company or whether you're an entrepreneur or whether you're a homemaker, whatever you do in life.”   So, with that in mind, I've spoken all over the country and encourage parents. These are things that we need to be working on. There are things that are not being worked on in the classroom.   So, look for opportunities to hand more of the education off to your students, let them plan what do I wanna study for the next two days, the next two weeks, the next two months?   Where am I gonna get the resources to discover that by the time they're in high school?   I'm gonna give you a budget to work with. There's $200, you can buy some resources, tools that you think would be useful in the process.   Where do we need to be in project management to start the process?   Where should we be by the end of week two? Where should we be by the end of the month?   These are the skills that employers are looking for and so many parents have told us that their kids have just rocketed in the marketplace.   My final question to this guy was, so are you finding bright young men and women who can do the job?   He goes, there's never been brighter, more thoroughly educated young men and women who can do the job.   He said, the problem is I can't find any who will do the job.   I can't find people who will do even four hours work for eight hours pay.   They wanna go to Starbucks, they wanna be on their cell phone, they wanna be on Facebook, they wanna be talking to their friends, taking care of their online banking, paying bills.   And so, character comes first. And if we teach our children their purpose and their place in this world, if we help them find and discover their giftedness and their aptitudes and invite them along those pathways and we increasingly turn more and more of that education over to them in the high school years where they begin to take responsibility for their own education, we're going to end up with not just capable but outstanding young men and women who can quickly take their place in our culture and rise to the very top because frankly, there's very little competition.   Laura Dugger: (46:26 - 46:36) Wow. Well, Steve, is there anything else that we haven't yet covered?   Any scriptures or stories to share that you wanna make sure we don't miss?   Steve Lambert: (46:37 - 50:16) The thing we want people to take away from all of that is not that the only way to raise your kids is to homeschool or that God doesn't approve of anything else.   The point is, listen to God and do what he said, but don't put your fingers in your ears because he often calls us to things that we really maybe didn't wanna hear and obedience is better than sacrifice.   One of my favorite stories, when our oldest daughter started to college, she went through placement counseling that summer and the placement counselor said, "You know, I don't think I've..." That was in 1991. He said, "I don't think I've ever had a student who was homeschooled."   So, that's pretty interesting. And she said, "Okay, great." And there were 30,000 students at this college and she was not only at that point, as far as we know, the only or first homeschooler, but she was also the youngest, having just turned 16 that in the middle of August.   And so, when she began, one of the prereq classes that every incoming freshman had to take was public speaking.   And she realized much to her horror that her public speaking teacher was the guy who had helped with her placement counseling earlier in the summer.   And she really didn't want anybody to know she'd been homeschooled, but she said there were returning GIs from Operation Desert Storm.   There were empty nest moms coming back to finish the degree. There were pre-med students. There were student athletes.   There were just every kind of student in that class because everybody had to take public speaking.   And he said, the very first day, the teacher said, "I'd like for everybody to give a six-minute speech on Monday. That's the best way to do this is just to jump in on whether or not you think we ought to be involved in nation building. Except for you, Ms. Lambert, and I'd like for you to give six-minute speech on what it was like to be homeschooled."   And she slunk down below her desk and tried to disappear into the floor.   And she said, "Dad, what am I gonna do?" I said, "Well, just get up and tell them."   So, she did. And she said, you know, as far as I can tell over the course of that semester, she said every single person in that class, whether they were 18 or 58, found me somewhere on the campus in the quadrangle at the library, the cafeteria, in the parking lot, and said in one way or another, their own words, "You're so lucky your parents cared enough about you to be involved in your education. I'm jealous. I'm envious. I wish my parents had been."   She said, but the one that killed me was a girl who was 18, had just graduated from a prestigious high school the previous May.   And she began to tell her story. And she said, "When I began high school four years ago, my goal was to become valedictorian of my graduating class. I've never been at a sleepover. I've never been to a, you know, skating party or, you know, movies. All I've done is study for four years. And she said, I was in AP classes all the way through and my GPA was like 4.7887. And there was this guy and his was 4.78779. And he and I competed every year in every class. And it came down to the final test and the final class and the final semester. And I beat him by two points."   And so, last May, she said, my dream came true.   And I stood on the football field and I gave the commencement address, the valedictorian address to 4,000 of my peers, their parents, civic leaders, laity, community leaders of faith. And both of my parents were too busy to attend.   She said, "I wish my parents cared and had been as involved in my education as yours were. You're very lucky."   And she said, "Dad, it just killed me to hear her story."   And I said, "I don't have any answers, honey, but our joy was raising you girls and seeing you become the people that God intended you to become."   Laura Dugger: (50:18 - 50:43) Wow, Steve, that is so powerful.   And what an incredible charge to leave each of us with to go and do likewise.   And as we wind down our time together, you are already familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Steve Lambert: (50:45 - 51:59) Read aloud, read often, read to your spouse, read to your kids.   Jane and I continue, we've been together now 57 years, and we still read aloud to one another every single day.   I read aloud to my kids still on occasion, my grandkids still, my daughters are in their 40s.   My grandkids, but that was the joy. And that's the thing that when all else fails, when your relationship is struggling, when your homeschool day is falling flat on its face, get a great book and snuggle together with your kids and read out loud.    It's in that process that their imaginations are birthed, their angst is quieted, and disagreements between spouses can suddenly be pushed aside because suddenly you're facing sorrow and you have a sword in your hand or you're coming down the Mississippi River on a riverboat or whatever it is that you, it unlocks doors that sometimes we didn't even know were locked.   So, that's the Savvy Sauce that's worked for us. Read aloud, read often, and don't let a day go by that you don't read to your children, even when your kids are 18. And if you have little ones, read to the little ones and I guarantee you the high schoolers will come around and listen to every day.   Laura Dugger: (52:00 - 52:23) I love that so much. That is wonderful.   And I have very much appreciated your insights and wisdom that you shared with us today.   So, thank you for the legacy that you and Jane have been building for years.   Thank you for being a faithful and intentional father and husband.   And thank you so much, Steve, for being my guest.   Steve Lambert: (52:24 - 52:29) Laura, it's been my pleasure. I've appreciated the opportunity. Thank you for what you do.   God bless you.   Laura Dugger: (52:29 - 55:45) Thank you. One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.   But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.   This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.   So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a Savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.   This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.   Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.   I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.   You get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started?   First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible.   The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John.   Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ.   We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.   Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with.   You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

268. Savvy Business and Health & Wellness Tips and Journey to Overcoming Infertility with Laura Jean Bell   1 Corinthians 10:31 NIV "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."   Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.    *Transcription Below*   Laura Jean Bell is a believer, storyteller, writer, wife to her high school sweetheart and mama to three miracle babies.   She is a published author of You Can Always Come Home by Laura Jean Bell, in addition to being a Business and Social Media Coach.    Laura also overcame stage 3 endometriosis by taking the road less traveled and now she spends countless hours helping other women take that road with her!    Connect with Laura on Instagram: @laura_jean_bell   Laura Jean Bell's Website   Questions and Topics We Discuss: What are a handful of practical tips you can offer others, especially as it relates to digital marketing? Will you share your research on Minerals: How do we even determine what minerals we need?  Will you leave us with a few more social media tips?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank   Other Episodes Related to This Topic from The Savvy Sauce: 48 Pursuing Health, Not Vanity Before and After Childbearing with Blogger, Speaker, and Coach, Megan Dahlman 33 Pursuing Health in the New Year with Functional Medicine Specialist, Dr. Jill Carnahan 68 Hormones and Simple Changes to Feel SO Much Better with Functional Medicine Expert, Dr. Jill Carnahan 70 Energy to Spark Success in Your Business with Best-Selling Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Christy Wright 76 Conflict Resolution, Infidelity, and Infertility with Licensed Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese 77 How 2 Questions Can Grow Your Business and Change Your Life with Author, Pastor, and Podcaster, Jeff Henderson 132 Pursuing Your God-Given Dream with Francie Hinrichsen 256 Gut Health, Allergies, Inflammation and Proactive Solutions with Emily Macleod-Wolfe 266 Female Sex Hormones, Periods, and Perimenopause with Emily Macleod-Wolfe   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:10)   Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:25) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.    Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.   Laura Jean Bell is my guest today, and she is a Jesus-loving author and also a business and social media coach. So, not only is she going to share some of her best savvy social media and business tips, but also the conversation takes a detour into health and wellness, and she has an abundance of wisdom to share there as well, even including practical tips that we can implement today for our own flourishing in health and well-being. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Laura.   Laura Jean Bell: (1:26 - 1:27) Hi, thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger: (1:28 - 1:34) I'd love for you just to start us off by giving us a snapshot glimpse of your current life right now.   Laura Jean Bell: (1:35 - 2:27) Oh, my goodness, my chaotic life. Actually, it's a sweet, beautiful thing, but I am a wife to my high school sweetheart. We have been married, this year will be 11 years, and we have three kiddos. Emmylou, who is six. She literally just turned six. My son Oaks, who is three, and my youngest is Lottie, and she just turned nine months. So, my life is very full. I own my business, I am a published author, and I have three very, very needy children, right? I'm in a season of life where I'm very, very, very needed, and that's a beautiful thing, but it can be a very overwhelming thing at times. So, that is a little snapshot about my day-in and day-out life.   Laura Dugger: (2:27 - 2:43) That sums it up well. Gorgeous kid names, by the way. Oh, thank you. But I'd love to hear more about your business, too. Would you mind just explaining the work that you get to do as a digital marketer and online income mentor?   Laura Jean Bell: (2:44 - 4:58) Sure. Okay, so, this has been such a fun journey for me, and just to maybe explain it in like a Reader's Digest version, because I think that there's so much on the internet right now that's like, make $5 million in four minutes. But what I do is actually help business owners.    So, like the average woman who maybe is wanting to build an income or find her place online, that was where I started. That's where I began, like really helping those women be like, “Hey, I can be a business owner, too.” I can actually have like a mark and a place in this space, which I think is often really hard for women to like grasp, because we're so inundated with influencer culture.    But as the business began to expand and grow, I really started to lean into how do I help business owners actually market their business and make it really profitable online? Because a lot of times there's business owners that have these great businesses, but they don't actually have the marketing piece to actually sell the thing that makes their business a business. And some of them have a brick and mortar, and they're brick and mortar as well, but they'd love to increase their income.    How do you do that? You get online; you make sales online. And so, what I do is I teach female business entrepreneurs how to scale their business using Instagram.    I do not focus on any other platforms. My main focus is Instagram and teaching them how to use their messaging to make sales consistently. And so, I help them figure out their messaging and then write it.    Actually, I write content for a lot of my clients. And then I teach them consistency and speed so that their life isn't just consumed by the internet, which is like what all of us feel, right? Like, once you get on, you're like, how do I do this?    And I have to create this, I have to edit this, I have to do that. Like, it becomes very overwhelming. And so, what I do is I just eliminate the overwhelm.    I simplify it and I help entrepreneurs really find their messaging.   Laura Dugger: (4:59 - 5:15) Wow, that's incredible. So, you clearly have a gift for communication and articulating different things. Is there anything you want to just give us a little peek into practical tips if somebody is running their own social media?    Any tips you'd have for business owners?   Laura Jean Bell: (5:17 - 6:59) I think that the biggest, the greatest understatement that's happening right now online is followers and views mean absolutely nothing. They are like the beginning of Instagram, the beginning of social media. It was all about like, how many friends do you have?    And then it was how many followers do you have? And you know, how many views are you getting on your stories? And you get all these interactions on your reels.    And like, while that is the mental game of social media, and that is the thing that everybody is going for, because it actually fuels this like dopamine hit in your brain. But the reality is, is that there are people with thousands upon thousands of followers that are making $0 on the internet. And what they need is the actual messaging that says, “Hey, this is how I serve this pain point, and give you the life you want.”   And so, the biggest thing is, if you have five people in one day that view your stories, and three of them actually buy from you, like, that's over 50%. So, you're looking at, while everybody is freaking out about the number, it really is about your messaging in order to convert to sales, you can have a bunch of eyes on you. But if you're not serving the people that are following you, and serving them towards a sale, it doesn't mean anything.    So, don't focus on the numbers, focus on your messaging, focus on your brand, focus on what it is that you are serving your people with. And you will make money, you just will. It's how it works.    So, I hope that answers your question. Well for you.   Laura Dugger: (6:59 - 7:26) But yeah, I love it, because it's so unexpected, I would have never known. And I've also heard you encourage people to share their stories rather than just stating facts. And you share your own story, both online and in your book, You Can Always Come Home: Following the Breadcrumbs of Your Past to Find the Hope for Your Tomorrow.    So, Laura, how can we all incorporate stories into our own work so that we can better serve others?   Laura Jean Bell: (7:28 - 8:59) That's such a good question. And I think the biggest thing is, what story do you want people to know? What story is it that like, you really think like, you've been pricked, right, by the Holy Spirit, like, this is the story that I need you to tell.    This is why you walked through this experience. This is why you're doing this thing. Because oftentimes, we can negate the things that we've walked through, and act as if like, those things didn't, weren't that big of a deal because you survived it, right?    Like, oh, well, you know, it wasn't anything, it was a big deal, right? And so, what are the things that you actually feel are important, they keep showing up, they keep becoming the things that people are asking you about? And how do you tell that story to where somebody hears the messy middle, and then the beautiful resolve, the beautiful ending to that story, because there is, right, the beginning, the middle, and the end.    And that's what makes stories so impactful. Facts tell, right? Like, anybody can tell you that, like, a carrot is orange.    But like, if somebody tells you the story of how the carrot became orange, or how this, like, what the soil does to all of this, and how it adds these nutrients, doesn't that make you like, appreciate a carrot more, want to eat a carrot more, want to go buy the carrots more, right? And so, the same goes with our story, like, what is it that actually happened to create this specific result?   Laura Dugger: (9:00 - 9:11) That's so good. Well, and speaking of stories, are you willing to walk us through a little bit of your own story with your health journey? Yeah, absolutely.    Ask me anything.   Laura Jean Bell: (9:11 - 9:16) I'm an open book. It might scare some people. I'm an open book about it.   Laura Dugger: (9:17 - 9:33) I appreciate that. Yeah, just, you're clearly a very healthy woman. But I know you've had a whole past that you've walked.    So, has health always been important to you? Or at what point of life did you start to make some changes because it wasn't working?   Laura Jean Bell: (9:35 - 14:24) Yeah, you know, it's so interesting. When I reflect on something like that. Um, you know, I grew up in a home, I always start with this, like, my mother was not a dieter.    Like she didn't diet all the time. She wasn't always like, on some workout trend or not eating carbs or not doing this. Like it was never that.    My mom is naturally like very, very, very thin. And so, like that wasn't a part of the conversation. My mom was always obsessed, though, with, like eating food that's good for you.   Like, and in the 90s, like that was really tricky, right? Because they were so many messages about like, what's good for you? What's not that is bad.    Like there's all these things. And while our household, I say was probably much healthier than the average household in the 1990s and early 2000s. I don't think that I ever like cared about my health.    I still ate the Hot Pockets and the Easy Mac and ramen noodles and every opportunity that my parents actually let us eat out like I was chowing down. So, when I reflect on like my years, like 0 to 18, all I cared about was just consumption. I was like, nobody could stop the amount of food that I could consume.    I'm five foot eleven (5' 11”). I was growing like crazy. You can ask my family like I could out eat anyone.    It was kind of unbelievable. So, that part of my life, like, that was not an unhealthy thing. College is when things began for me.    And when I went to college, I for most of my life, I was a competitive dancer. So, like, I was consuming but I was burning like it was like calories in versus calories out. I had no concept of that.    I did not know how to read a nutrition label on the back of a box until I was like, well into college, like, literally remember learning how to do it in a college health class. So, I go to college. And I noticed that I started gaining weight, right?    Like, I'm eating all the fast-food options that are in our student center. And then the cafeteria food. This isn't my mom's home cooked meals anymore.    This isn't the mostly healthy option anymore. And I start gaining weight. So, when that happened, I started hearing other girls talk about what they were doing.    Like, oh, well, you just eat less than exercise more. And like, I had no concept of like, what, what did that mean? Right?    Like, do you just not eat like I love to eat, right. And so, what I started doing, I didn't know how to like lift weights or do anything. So, I started running, because I thought, okay, I have endurance, I danced forever, like, you have to have that endurance with that.    So, like, I'll run. So, I start running. And I completely gave up meat.    I was like, well, I can just eat. I thought meat somehow made you fat. I don't know.    That was just some weird thing that I had in my head. And I stopped eating meat, and I ate less. So, like, I just kind of narrowed down what I was eating, and then ate less of it kind of thing.    And that was when my health problems began, was when I began doing that. Which is really interesting, right? I was probably eating roughly like 1000 to 1200 calories a day, but I was running four to six miles a day.    So, like, I was not fueling what I was burning. Although I was losing weight. So, like, calories in versus calories out, like the concept of like, just eat less than exercise more, it was working.    I was 19. Like, I was young, I had a like, everything was working right, you know. But all of a sudden, my body was like, you're depriving me.    And I'm not only being deprived of actual calories, I'm being deprived of nutrients. And what began to happen is it started to show up in my hormones, with my cycle, started breaking out in hormonal acne on my chin, I started having very short cycles. So, like, for any woman listening that maybe doesn't have a concept of this language, because oddly enough, so many women don't, and it's like about us.    But like, a woman has a cycle, your period isn't your cycle, it's the full month that's your cycle. And I was instead of 28 days, I was having 18 day cycles. And the pain during my period was excruciating.    It was so painful. And I'd never experienced that before. So, those were the things that began to show up.    But I just kept going with what I was doing. And just thought I just had bad periods. I had family members that had bad periods, this just must be genetic. And I just have to live with it and pop ibuprofen every 18 days, right. So, that was kind of where it where it started.   Laura Dugger: (14:25 - 16:04) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Midwest Food Bank who exists to provide industry leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.    Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.   Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year. And thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need.    The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, cost of leadership, oversight and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to Episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce where the founder David Kieser shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today. Was that the point that led to what you call your year of rebellion? Or did that come later?   Laura Jean Bell: (16:05 - 23:39) No way that that was just the start of basically, roughly eight years of undiagnosed endometriosis. So, what started happening is in college, I would have these what I call episodes where I would be roughly like a day or two before my period would start. And I would have this unbelievable pain that would come over me.    And I could feel it literally my lower abdomen, so much pressure, so much discomfort. Oftentimes, it would involve vomiting, passing out, so painful. To this day, I've had an unmedicated birth.    And I'm here to tell you that the pain of pushing out an almost 10-pound baby, and that were roughly the same thing. It was unbelievable, excruciating pain. I would go to the doctor, they would not give me ultrasounds, they would not check anything, they would not even do my blood work, they did nothing.    They would just say you have really painful periods, and we'll give you birth control. That was every year from 2010 until 2017. This was what was given to me.    And so, in 2017, I was on my way to work, and I had one of those episodes. And I called the doctor, they bring me in, and I said, I want an ultrasound, like I will sit here all day, I need an ultrasound. And so, they did an ultrasound and found two cysts on one ovary, one on the other, and they were six and seven centimeters and six centimeters.    I mean, it was just crazy, these large cysts. And they were like, you more than likely have endometriosis. This is, you know, they started explaining all the things.    And fast forward, I ended up having two laparoscopies, which is the surgery to remove endometriosis in 10 months, the average woman can go 18 months between surgeries, and I had mine in 10 months. That's how reoccurring rapidly it was growing and spreading in my body. And I felt zero relief from the surgeries, which everyone promised, like, you'll feel amazing, you'll, you know, you'll get pregnant. I couldn't get pregnant. I was in so much pain, and I go through another cycle of it.    And it's like, these doctors are like, yeah, you're probably just not going to be able to have children. We recommend you getting on birth control, or getting a hysterectomy, like, these are your options. And so, what I did is I went to see a fertility specialist, like anybody would do like, I'm not going to just stick with my OB. I'm going to see if I can actually have kids. And so, I see a fertility specialist, I go through multiple, multiple, multiple rounds of fertility treatments, and I wind up getting pregnant with my first daughter, Emilu.    So, she is a product of folly stem stimulation and an IUI. And lots of trigger shots and lots of synthetic progesterone. I did all of it.    And after my daughter was born a year postpartum, I got pregnant again, and I miscarried that baby. That baby was miscarried March of 2020, which is when everybody went crazy, right? 2020, like who has their 2020 story, right?   And so, my daughter was little, I mean, she was like 14 months old, when I had this miscarriage. And I remember watching, I watched this video, it was called The Pandemic. And a lot of people like didn't actually see it because it was taken off the internet for misinformation.    And it was a woman that was explaining what was really happening with the pandemic, which is funny, because all of it's true now. But it was taken down like, she's crazy. This is a horrible pandemic, nothing was created in a lab, all of that.    And I was like, I went to watch it again, because I thought this woman must be crazy. Like there's no way that this would actually happen. And I went to watch it again.    And it was taken off the internet for misinformation. And this thought came over me, which is so bizarre now. Like, I know more about Kim and Kanye's divorce, than I know about what's happening with this pandemic.    Yet, Kim and Kanye's divorce information is there for me to see. And they're not letting me look at this. Why?    And it was this very strange thing that came over me. But everything that came out that was like, don't take this medicine to help COVID, don't do this, actually, like saturated fats are bad for you, like all of these different things that were popping up. And people were saying, it's misinformation.    I was like, I'm going to research that. I'm going to research that. I'm going to research that the fertility doctor that did my DNC after I had a miscarriage. They actually said to me, you will never again, have another pregnancy.    But if you do, you will not have a normal child. That is what they discovered and decided about me, according to the results from that DNC, what happened to that baby, why that baby wasn't developing, why I lost that baby. It literally like, and him saying that to me, I was like, why?    And it was almost like he couldn't explain to me the reasons why, but that I just never would. And this is what I needed to do next in order to stay healthy and keep endometriosis away. And so, I went on this journey for one year and I committed to one year where I was like, everything that is misinformation, I'm going to research it.    Everything that I have been told is good for me or is the best choice for me because of my condition. I'm going to actually look at what they're giving to me and like, why? Um, every time somebody told me like endometriosis is incurable.    Okay. But like, what is endometriosis? Nobody actually explained to me what it was.    They just told me I had it and that it caused what it caused, not actually what caused it. And so, when I went on this journey, I began to discover and unfold so many things that absolutely blew my mind, broke my heart, made me very angry because as I began to implement the things that I discovered, I healed and I got better. And all of a sudden I don't have endometriosis anymore.    All of a sudden I'm pregnant with a very healthy baby. All of a sudden, like everything is better. How is it that the things that the providers that were working with me, what they were doing for me was keeping me sick.    And as I branched out and did all the things that they said was absolutely crazy. I had one of them literally looking at me and he was holding topical progesterone and he was like, this stuff, like with all due respect to this functional doctor that talked to you, this stuff doesn't work. And unfortunately they sell things to people like you, young women who are desperate for answers.    They sell this stuff to you to make so much money and it's not going to do anything for you. Guess what? Topical progesterone changed my life.    So, anyways, that is kind of a little bit of like my year of rebellion and what happened. I'm happy to go into details for you, but I feel like I'm getting long winded with it.   Laura Dugger: (23:39 - 24:13) No, that's incredible. I do want to do a deep dive into it because I think it's such a blessing after you've spent over a year researching this and then living this for multiple years. I think it can be such a benefit to each of us.    And I'm recalling this story specifically about toxins where people were saying that means nothing. But in that fertility clinic, somebody told you, there was a sign that said their employees were not allowed to wear certain toxins because quote, it could inhibit the fertility process.   Laura Jean Bell: (24:14 - 24:14) Yes.   Laura Dugger: (24:15 - 24:16) Can you elaborate on that?   Laura Jean Bell: (24:17 - 26:18) Yes. You know, what's really funny is I went to the health department to get some paperwork and stuff for my kids the other day. And, um, there was a sign up that was like any and all women that are getting mammograms, if you're getting a mammogram, do not wear perfume or deodorant for a mammogram because of the radiation mixed with the toxins.    I asked the woman that was sitting there, I was like, why did they say that? And she explained it to me and I was like, oh, okay. So, why aren't you telling us to stop wearing it altogether?    Um, but when I went to the fertility clinic, I was going through fertility. I was like an avid Daisy by Mark Jacobs perfume where I don't know. I still love the way that smells.    It's the yummiest, but I would wear it all the time. And I went in and the woman that was there, she was like, you smell so good. And I was like, it's Daisy by Mark Jacobs.    She was like, I wish I could wear perfume to work. I'm not allowed to. And I was like, why not?   And she was like, oh, because like the people that are working on women who are going through fertility, getting their IU eyes. So, it's like when they're actually inseminating you, like we, it could inhibit the fertility process. She was like, have you ever noticed we don't have any candles?    Like we're not allowed to bring candles here, all of that. And I was like, why aren't you telling me to stop doing that? Is that not interesting to anyone?    Like why is no one paying attention to the fact that like, I'm walking in here with perfume on to get an IU eye that's going to fail because it inhibits the, for the fertility process, like the one that works. Uh, guess what? I wasn't wearing any perfume.    So, it's like, it's one of those things that like, when I heard that, I thought, well, what is it that messes with the fertility process? Like what, what is that? And this was honestly, when I heard this information, this was before my year of rebellion.    So, like, I remember her telling me that and I kind of stopped wearing it to the sessions because I thought, well, I don't want to get this messed up anyways.   Laura Dugger: (26:18 - 26:29) So, yeah, pretty wild. That's incredible. And okay.    So, from that year of rebellion, what other tweaks did you make small and large?   Laura Jean Bell: (26:30 - 29:38) Oh man. Um, some big things like I removed toxins from my home. So, that looked like removing Clorox wipes and, um, detergents that are just like your average detergents that you buy from the store.    Um, I stopped burning candles and started burning, not burning, but diffusing essential oils. Um, from there, what I really started focusing on was my protein intake. Um, I spent so many years vegan, vegetarian, refusing meat, refusing proteins.    And those were the years that things were really bad for me. When I started to reincorporate animal proteins and quality animal fats, my cycles went from 18 days to 29 days. I started having painless periods.    My hair started growing more. Um, my nails wouldn't break. Um, my, even my vision got better.   And so, what was really interesting is I started learning that if you are protein deficient, you will be progesterone deficient and progesterone is the pregnancy hormone. This is the hormone you have to have in order to conceive. I always tell it like this progesterone equals pro gestation.    So, if you don't have enough progesterone, your baby cannot survive the first 12 weeks. That's what the baby lives on before the placenta is formed. You have to have progesterone in order to balance out the estrogen progesterone balance.    If it's imbalanced, that's where you have pain, mood swings, acne, discomfort, the growth of endometriosis and PCOS. These things are really important. Progesterone is so important for your mental health.    If you are mentally low, like think about your progesterone levels. Think about how much you're sleeping. If you're sleeping in complete darkness, that raises your levels.    If you eat at least 80 grams of protein a day, it raises your progesterone levels. These are two really basic things. Like it's really simple.    It's not complicated. So, that was probably the biggest thing for me was learning how to eat because for years we're told, at least all of my life, like fat is bad. They would rather you eat hydrogenated oils and I can't believe it's not better than actually eat grass-fed butter.    Why? Why is it bad for you? When you really uncover the work that was done in the studies that were given for explaining that fat is bad, it was all paid for.    It was all paid for by the medical industry, by big pharma in order to push this agenda. They said that it was bad for our hearts, but get this, in the years after they told everyone that it was horrible for heart health, heart disease skyrocketed as people began to eat less animal protein and less animal fats. So, anyways, just to give like a little, some of the things that I discovered and changed, that's the main thing, which really and truly is like not that complicated.    Wow.   Laura Dugger: (29:39 - 29:45) Yes. Focusing on what you're intaking. What about cortisol? What did you learn about that?   Laura Jean Bell: (29:46 - 32:21) So, cortisol is like your get up and get crap done hormone. Okay. And when you are living in a state of fight or flight, where basically you get up in the morning, I'm going to give you an example of what a lot of women do.    And they end up having issues with cortisol and eventually stop producing it altogether. So, a woman gets up in the morning, she wakes up, she drinks a cup of coffee with no food on her stomach. And she goes and does a 30-minute cardio workout.    And then she comes in and she eats maybe like a protein bar, like a little, like some type of granola bar, another cup of coffee. She goes to work. She works all day or she's home with her kids all day.    And by the time she's got her work done, or she's taking care of her children and fed her children, doing all of these things, you're going all day long. All of a sudden it's three o'clock and you haven't eaten anything and you're in a bad mood and you're really tired. And so, maybe you go get a snack and another cup of coffee.    And then by the time you get to dinner, it's the only meal that you've really sat down and had for the day. Okay. So, what has that done to you?    Your body believes because your body and your brain don't know the difference between a bear chasing you or you running strictly on caffeine and doing too much cardio. And so, all of a sudden she is moody. She's exhausted.    She's running on all this tension. Her hair starts to fall out. She gets acne.    Her skin's doing some weird stuff. Her nails are kind of brittle. All this, you're always moody.   You're always in a bad mood. It's because your cortisol is doing this. It's like, and it's like on, it's like high.    And sometimes when you keep doing this, you actually can get a lot of energy. And then all of a sudden your adrenals, because your adrenals are what produced cortisol. Your adrenals are like, actually we're done.    Like stop running from the bear. Just die. Like literally it like can't do anything for you anymore.   And you go into what a lot of people call, or doctors call adrenal failure, which is where your body doesn't even produce cortisol anymore. And so, that is when you can't get out of bed in the morning. You're so exhausted.    Um, you can't lose weight. You, no matter what you do, you're winded. You're overwhelmed.   Um, but you don't have energy for anything. You have so much brain fog, um, so much bloat and inflammation. It's because your body's not producing cortisol.    So, you don't have the energy to get anything done. Um, does that answer your question?   Laura Dugger: (32:21 - 32:45) Yeah, this is so interesting because I feel like there's a whole health movement right now. So, there's a lot of buzz about all of this and people, I think, especially after 2020 people are waking up. So, love gathering perspectives as you're talking about inflammation then too, with cortisol, have you researched much about grounding, like actually barefoot on the earth?    Yes, girl. Are you kidding me? Absolutely.   Laura Jean Bell: (32:46 - 35:48) Um, so, something that was really interesting, I went to see a specialist, um, when I was really healing my adrenals, because a fun fact for you, like when your adrenals are just in overload, if you are experiencing high cortisol, you're constantly up here. Guess what? Your body's going to throw out the window fertility because what in the world is safe about a body that is running from a bear?    Like, no, your body is preserving you because it's not safe for you to host a life. So, I was seeing a doctor who was really helping me. Um, it's called muscle testing.    So, they test each organ according to how your muscles respond. And, um, I was in adrenal failure. And at this point I'd already had my second child and was experiencing a lot of inflammation.    I couldn't lose weight. I was like so tired. I was irritable.    And, um, I did this long session with him and I was in St. Pete, Florida doing this session. And he said, you have an assignment for the rest of the day. And I was like, okay.    And he was like, you need to go to the beach, like go somewhere and actually lay your entire body down on the sand. He was like, I know, like nobody wants to get sandy, but like lay on the sand. And I was like, tell me why.    And he was like, if you lay on the sand, it's your body touching the earth. And God gave you the earth as a battery pack. And this battery pack literally is going to shoot energy back into your body that your body has been deprived of.    And like, there's, he started going into all the studies for it, but he was like, don't you ever know the difference? Like, and how you feel when you've been cooped up at work all day. And then like, you go on a vacation to the beach and you sit on the beach and you put your feet in moving water.    He was like, it's literal living water. This living water moves and it heals and rejuvenates what happens to water that stagnant. It gets disgusting. Yeah.    It turns to mold, right? It actually goes toxic, but that moving water is healing. It's living.    It's rejuvenating. It's very biblical, right? And then you have the earth that God gave you is this battery pack.    There are people, this is going to sound crazy, but there are who have done LSD, like psychedelic drugs that talk about the vibrations of the earth. When they're on this drug, they are seeing the way. And they talk about there's a magnetic field.    They like, you can read, you can watch videos. You can see studies of people who did LSD, who literally can see the energy that the ground gives you. I mean, it's crazy, but isn't it like the Lord, right?    To give us what we need in nature, like magic.   Laura Dugger: (35:49 - 37:17) Yes. Where we're going back to the way that he designed, whether that's eating whole foods or getting outside in his beautiful nature. There's countless benefits, but I think it's just amazing that taking your shoes off and being on the earth, even for 30 seconds is beneficial.    When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce?   How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you? Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials, anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love?    If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help. Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple podcasts.    Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.    You had also talked about previously with your health journey, being deficient in minerals, I think you said as well, or just not getting the nutrients. So, are there any minerals that we all are likely lacking or any that you would recommend from your research and experience?   Laura Jean Bell: (37:18 - 39:36) Yeah, I would, I mean, every mineral. The most underrated mineral right now is potassium. The amount of women who are potassium deficient and need more potassium is unreal.    But magnesium is huge. You have to have magnesium for your body to even naturally produce vitamin D. Like vitamin D is a hormone, but you have to have magnesium for your body to produce vitamin D.    How many have gone to the doctor and they're like, you are very low in vitamin D, right? Well, get in the sunshine more, take the supplement, but like, where's your magnesium, right? And so, magnesium, potassium, potassium is huge, especially for your mental health.    This is really going to help you in like balancing out, like you're removing the brain fog, really. Sodium, which everyone's like, eat less sodium. You need less sodium chloride.    You need less table salt. You don't need less salt. Your body has salt.    Your body needs salt. Think about what your t-shirt looks like when you drenched in sweat. It dries and what does it have?    Salt. It's salty, right? When you're sweaty, it's salty.    And it's because your body actually needs sodium. It has to have it. And so, stop using white table salt, like iodized salt.    Go get some quality Celtic salt, like really simple, but put that in your water. Like first thing in the morning, drink some water with some Celtic salt, like get those electrolytes back in your system. So, potassium, magnesium, sodium, and calcium, like your body needs calcium and you can get calcium in multiple ways, um, multiple ways, but calcium is going to support your bones.    It's going to help support your muscles. Cause if you are working those muscles, your body needs the strength. And so, calcium is going to give you that balance as well.    It's fantastic. So, all of them, but like, I think the make sure you're getting magnesium, just like if you just need to start somewhere, just get a magnesium supplement. I recommend magnesium glycinate because it's kind of the overall magnesium.   Laura Dugger: (39:37 - 39:44) So, it's great. Okay. And you said you can get calcium multiple places.    Do you take that as a supplement or where do you get your calcium?   Laura Jean Bell: (39:45 - 41:04) So, I actually do adrenal cocktails. So, that is, um, coconut water, orange juice and Celtic salt. That's it.    And just do a little adrenal cocktail in the morning. And in the afternoon, make sure that you have had protein before you drink it, because if you're anything like me, it'll spike your blood sugar. Um, if you're not balanced, so, you need to be balanced.    Um, I've always been very sensitive to things like orange juice, apple juice. Like as a kid, I would feel really bad in the mornings and I just thought breakfast made my stomach hurt. And actually it was like, my blood sugar was dysregulated from the cup of orange juice and the cinnamon toast that my mom gave me.    Right. So, like, it's like butter, sugar, white flour, orange juice, like eat this for a nutrient dense breakfast. And I like would feel horrible after because my blood sugar was off.    So, um, make sure you get some protein on your stomach and drink the adrenal cocktail. Like my parents, my parents swear by it. My dad's like, this has changed my life.    I'm your mom's going to make me one of those little cocktail things that you tell, I tell her about all the time. It's hilarious. And I'm like, it's just juice and coconut water, but it's got the minerals.    That's why it makes you feel so good. It's because it's giving your body the nutrients that it needs.   Laura Dugger: (41:05 - 41:17) That's incredible. Are there any other biohacks, health hacks, even the role of light that it plays or movement or anything else that you want to recommend with your extensive research?   Laura Jean Bell: (41:18 - 43:19) Um, I'll give two things. Uh, number one: if you can get up as the sun is rising or a little bit before and actually go outside and stare at the red light. The actual, morning sunrise, and then watch the sunset. If you can get your eyeballs on just like the surroundings where that red light is hitting, that will do wonders for the production of melatonin in your gut.    It's going to help you sleep. It's going to help you sleep really good at night, which is going to help you with your progesterone levels. So, that is great.    Number two is weightlifting. If you can incorporate at least two days a week of heavy weightlifting into your routine, it's going to do wonders. And the reason I say that is that estrogen, toxic estrogen, not the estrogen that's good for you that you need to like make you female, but like the toxic estrogens you're getting from perfumes and food and plastics and all the things it stores itself in fat, in visceral fat.    And so, the best way to burn fat and build muscle is by lifting weights. And so, if you want to keep toxic estrogens out of your body, step number one, get rid of fat, like fight hard for like, I mean, I'm still postpartum. I'm still burning off like weight that I gained in pregnancy.    But the number one thing that motivates me is not like, I want to look better, which of course I want to look better. Of course I want to fit back into my clothes, like all of that. But like Laura toxic estrogens store themselves in this fat.    And so, what, when you are lifting weights, you are burning fat and building muscle to support your family and not be burdened by the imbalance of your hormones. Like right there. That is the reason why.    So, lift weights. It's so good for you. It protects you from so many other diseases, but like that alone, women do not understand the power of that.    It's going to do wonders for you.   Laura Dugger: (43:20 - 43:47) Okay. This is so helpful. And then I'm thinking it's beneficial to have a specific plan.    So, as we think about where you talked about laundry detergents or limiting toxins, will you share a few of your personal favorite products? And then also what are some recommended things we can actually eat? Like when you walk through a healthy breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack, what would you share?   Laura Jean Bell: (43:49 - 45:22) Okay. So, some favorite products. I started out using Thieves household concentrate.    Young Living sells it. And it's like $26 for a bottle of the concentrate. That concentrate can be household cleaner.    So, like it can clean any surface in your home. It can be used as dishwasher detergent. So, we use thieves instead of like pods in our, in our dishwasher.    And I'm here to tell you, I think Young Living just came out with dishwasher pods, like Thieves dishwasher pods. We don't use it. We still use the concentrate.    But we use that. You can use it in your laundry so you can wash your clothes in it. And so, we alternate with that.    Sometimes we use that. Sometimes we use Molly's Suds. Those are like little pods.    You can get them on Amazon. It's a non-toxic option. You can also wash your clothes and like baking soda and vinegar, like just be old school.    Your clothes won't smell like vinegar. Don't worry. Like the vinegar gets rid of the odor.    That's like how our grandparents did it. So, those are some really simple hacks. Just because that's inexpensive.    Like you can make 16, I think it's 16 bottles of household concentrate, like spray with the one bottle. So, like you buy the one bottle, it takes a cap full and then you fill the rest of the way up with water and it cleans anything. It's fantastic.    It smells great. You'll love it. What else did you ask me?   Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 45:28) Food? Yes, food. Like a sample menu. Okay.   Laura Jean Bell: (45:28 - 47:02) Something that I love to eat. I love to just really enjoy my food. Like if you're on the go, like I'll give it an example.    If you're on the go, I recommend like boil some eggs. Okay. Take like three boiled eggs.    Get like a chopstick to get your protein and like an RX bar. RX bars are going to have the carbs, but it's also going to have more protein. You'll get six grams of protein per egg and then about 10 grams in your chopstick.    So, it's like 18 grams of the eggs plus 10 is 28 grams plus the RX bar. You're going to get over 30 grams of protein and then you'll have some carbs. I do recommend getting a little bit more carbs, but if you're on the go and you're in a hurry and you need to feel balanced, that's a good start.    If you're home, like I love doing scrambled eggs and air frying sweet potatoes, peppers, and onions. It is delicious. Just trust me and season it with garlic powder and salt.    It's so simple. Some avocado oil and literally just allow, like think about all the carbs, all the protein, everything. The best hack though, that I learned with eggs is do two regular, like the full egg and then do two egg whites and then add cottage cheese to your eggs, blend it in a blender and then cook them and just thank me later.    So, you're getting extra protein, it's creamier, it's so good. And then eat that with sweet potatoes and peppers and it's primo.   Laura Dugger: (47:02 - 47:12) Okay. This sounds amazing. I love it.    And this is my post recording meal, the RX bar. I love it on busy days.   Laura Jean Bell: (47:13 - 48:27) Yes. For lunch, I mean lunch, I honestly, I keep like ground beef patties just ready. And my air fryer stays on. I literally use it for every meal.    Sometimes if I don't have it ready, I just pat it out, put it in the air fryer, it cooks. Do that with a bunch of veggies, get lots of fruit, mainly berries, like berries, apples, and just adding that in is your carb. You can do, if you need a snack, I highly recommend doing Greek yogurt and mixing in your favorite protein powder and mixing that up.    It's so good. The Greek yogurt gives you the carbs, the fats and protein, and then you add the extra protein in it. And so, it's excellent.    For dinner, our favorite meal, we eat a lot of grass-fed beef because we buy cow every year. So, we'll do bowls and we'll do like a bed of rice, sweet potatoes, peppers and onions, and then ground beef. And then we drizzle the Japanese barbecue sauce over it.    And we call it Japanese barbecue bowls. It's literally just like a bunch of vegetables and meat with sauce, but it's really good.    So, there's some meal ideas for you.   Laura Dugger: (48:28 - 48:49) That's incredible. Thank you for just rattling those off. We've got a plan now.    And I love how this conversation took a turn toward health. So, before we leave that section, any other healthy rhythms or best practices or ways you've simplified your life that you would recommend? Just sleep.   Laura Jean Bell: (48:49 - 49:34) I know that sounds ridiculous, but people aren't sleeping and go to bed without your phone. You're going to be okay. You really are.    If your kids can go to bed without their phones, without a phone in their face, you can do it too. It's not the best way to turn your brain off. So, go to bed.    When you lay in a dark room without any blue light, you actually are helping your nervous system reset itself. And it needs a moment to rest and digest. So, get in the bed without a blue light and close your eyes and go to sleep.    You can do it, but it's so simple. And try to get eight to 10 hours of sleep a night. Truly, it's so important.   Laura Dugger: (49:35 - 49:54) That's so good. And you're all about simplifying. You even help people simplify their digital marketing.    So, as we turn it back to business, I know you can't give away all of your secrets, but will you share just a few more business or social media tips with all of us?   Laura Jean Bell: (49:55 - 50:43) Oh, man. I think the number one thing that I would tell anyone who's wanting to do anything in the online space is don't spread yourself across every platform. It's not worth your time.    And the more you hone in on one thing, the more of that thing you will sell, like plain and simple. And you will make way more money. You will spend way less time working on it.    You will enhance the lives of the people that choose to work with you. That is what you will gain.    If you simplify your offers, number one, sell less. Just sell more of one thing and stop spreading yourself thin across all the platforms. It's just too much work.   Laura Dugger: (50:43 - 51:03) That's wise counsel. And will you also tell us, I mean, I'm amazed as I'm thinking of all this research that you've done. You're living a healthy lifestyle.    You're raising young children, consulting with others as their coach. Also, you wrote a book. Can you share a little bit about that?   Laura Jean Bell: (51:03 - 52:50) I wrote my book. I actually have it right next to me because I was like, if somebody is going to ask you what this book is about, it's a book of short stories. And it sounds really simple, but it's a book of short stories that really draws you back to who you are in the Lord and understanding your place, like your identity in Christ, your belonging, fighting against fear and really coming home to who God created you to be.    And so, this book is a compilation of short stories of my own life where these things were very disrupted. My identity, like a total identity crisis, like not just having so much fear, learning how to come back to who God made me to be, but really writing out the moments of when I was living in that season and the people that helped me kind of find my way out and the things that God really showed me in that journey. And so, have it right here.    You Can Always Come Home: Following the Breadcrumbs of Your Past to Find the Hope for Your Tomorrow. It's really what my heart was and I learned a lot when I left my hometown and I moved to small town, North Alabama. And although this is where my dad is from, this was not where I was raised.    And I walked into a total identity crisis when I moved here. And I write a lot about that and about the moments when I was living in that season. How the Lord would reveal to me, like, remember when this happened, or remember when this happened and how you handled it or what that person said to you. And I wrote those stories in here.    And so, the goal of this book is for anybody who reads it to know that God's on your side and everything's going to be okay.   Laura Dugger: (52:51 - 53:06) Thank you for sharing that, Laura. And we'll certainly add a link for that in the show notes for today's episode, but also what links can we give for your social media? And then if somebody wants to reach out and work with you, what would that process look like?   Laura Jean Bell: (53:07 - 53:47) Yeah, so, my Instagram is Laura_Jean_Bell and Jean is J-E-A-N. And if you want to work with me or reach out, you can email me at laurabellwrites@gmail.com, or you can literally go to my Instagram account and click the link in my bio where I explain what I do. And it offers an ability to hop on a call with me where we can talk together and see if we would be a good fit to work together.    So, those are the ways that you can contact me. I have a website, laurabell.co, and you can contact me through that as well.   Laura Dugger: (53:48 - 54:07) Wonderful. Thank you for adding that. We will make sure it's accessible for everyone.    And Laura, you may be familiar with why we're called The Savvy Sauce, which is because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, my final question for you today, Laura, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Laura Jean Bell: (54:09 - 56:38) For life in general? You got it. Okay.    Well, I have two of them. And so, one of them is kind of silly and one of them is not. So, I'm going to go with the non-silly one.    Oh, share both. Yes. But I will say like this, there was this line that I heard, and I don't know who like trademarked this line, but it was very simple.    It said, “You are the CEO of your life.” And it was very simple, but it changed everything for me because for so much of my life, like if your knee jerk reaction to things not going your way is to blame someone else, you're not living as the CEO of your life. And I have spent a lot of my life, like when something doesn't go my way, I look for a person to blame instead of looking at myself and my own flaws. Being able to see that, “Hey, sometimes Laura, you're to blame and like, it's okay.”   You're the CEO of your life and you get to see what you did wrong, see how you messed up, see how you needed to shift something and then move on. And I think so many of us, whether we want to believe it or not, we can fall victim to that and live our lives so attached to this idea that somebody else is always to blame. Somebody else did this to me.    Sometimes things do happen to you that are not your fault. Sometimes you are a victim of horrible crimes and horrible things happening to you. But the question is, what are you going to do about it?    Who are you going to talk to about it? Are you going to go to the Lord and ask Him what it's actually supposed to look like for your life moving on from this place? Are you going to stay in a mindset that's small and traumatized, small and victimized?    Or are you going to say, “I'm the CEO of my life and I'm going to link arms with the Holy Spirit and keep moving forward.” And so, that was a huge thing for me to learn. And I feel like it's kind of been my savvy sauce in the last probably year, because 2024 was a year of a lot of things happening to me that weren't my fault.    And finally, one day I thought, you know, Laura, you can sulk in this, but it's not going to change your circumstance. What's going to change your circumstance is you saying, “I'm in charge of my life and I'm going to pick up the pieces of this and I'm going to ask God what to do with it.” And so, anyways, you're the CEO of your life and it's time to take charge of that.    So, yeah.   Laura Dugger: (56:38 - 56:42) I love it. And now you've got to share your silly one as well. You've left us curious.   Laura Jean Bell: (56:43 - 57:01) What is The Savvy Sauce? Let me just tell all of my, all of my geriatric millennials out there, you need to put castor oil on your face. Okay.    Just know that like castor oil, you need to look like a glazed donut when you go to bed and your skin is going to be, your skin will thank you. Just trust me.   Laura Dugger: (57:02 - 57:26) That's incredible. I was so grateful you shared. And Laura, I can see why clients are so drawn to work with you.    It is so delightful to have conversations with you. You are gifted in so many different arenas. And I think what really stands out is your generosity and just your willingness to share all of this with us.    So, thank you so much for being my delightful guest today.   Laura Jean Bell: (57:26 - 57:29) Oh, it's such a gift talking to you. Thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger: (57:30 - 1:01:12) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.    Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.    We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.    That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.    This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.    Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.    And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.    First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.    You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.    And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

267. Apologetics with Ray Comfort   Acts 4:20 NKJV "For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.”   **Transcription Below**   Ray Comfort is a best selling author - having written over 100 books, including his most recent one, entitled Fifty Years of Open-Air Preaching: Everything I've Learned. He is a cohost of an award-winning television show that airs in 190 countries.   Living Waters Website Living Waters YouTube Channel   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are some memorable encounters you've had over the years as an open-air preacher? What fears do you notice holding believers back from evangelizing? What's an easy win or next step we can take today so that the inspiration from this conversation turns into action?   Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: School Series (Legal) Gospel Sharing During School Hours with Joel Penton Stories Series: Faith Building Miracles with Dave Pridemore Stories Series: Testify to Glorify with Richard Gamble   Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka   Connect with The Savvy Sauce Facebook, Instagram or Our Website    Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:18) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.    I'm delighted with this opportunity to interview my special guest for today, Mr. Ray Comfort. Ray is a best-selling author of over 100 books, one of which we'll be discussing today, about 50 years of open-air preaching.   He's also a co-host of an award-winning television show that airs in over 190 countries around the world. So, I'm pleased to welcome Ray Comfort and get to hear all of his stories and inspiration. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Ray.   Ray Comfort: (1:19 - 1:27) Well, thank you for having me. Can you explain Savvy Sauce to me? Absolutely.   That means knowledge, knowledge poured out.   Laura Dugger: (1:27 - 1:46) Well, savvy is synonymous with practical or insight. And my husband having a background in Chick-fil-A, people always talk about the Chick-fil-A sauce or the secret sauce. And so, when we were creating this podcast, that just became the favorite question that I wanted to ask every guest.   Ray Comfort: (1:47 - 1:50) Oh, that's great. Yeah, it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me on.   Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 2:00) It's truly my pleasure. And I just love how everybody has a unique testimony. So, would you be willing to share your salvation story with us?   Ray Comfort: (2:01 - 4:47) Yeah, sure. I came from a non-Christian background. My mother was Jewish.   My dad was Gentile. And when my mom met my dad, it caused problems in the family. So, they brought me up with no Christian instruction or any instruction whatsoever.   Until at the age of 10, an aunt taught me the Lord's Prayer, which I prayed every night for 10 years. I believed in God. And at the age of about 20, 21, I had an epiphany, just a revelation that I was part of the ultimate statistic.   10 out of 10 die. And I thought, this is ridiculous. We're all waiting around to die.   And you can have fun while you're dying. You can play sports or save money. And I'd achieved everything I wanted to achieve by the age of 21.   I had my own business and my own house, my own wife. I'd made one child by then. Everything material I could want.   And I remember one night just going to sleep, or my wife had gone to sleep just before I went to sleep. I looked at my wife, we're newly married, and I just wept at the thought of her dying. And I just cried out, why?   Why is this thing called death? It's like there's an elephant in the room stomping on all humanity and nobody talks about it. And so, I cried out, why?   I didn't know I was praying. I didn't know God heard. And six months later, I was on a surfing trip, and there was a young Christian guy there, and he had a Bible, and I remember reading parts of it.   And my eyes fell upon, you've heard it said, by them of old you shall not commit adultery. And I thought, well, if there is a heaven, I'll make it there because I've never committed adultery. But then I read the words of Jesus, but I say to you, whoever looks upon a woman to lust for her has committed adultery already with her in his heart.   And it was like an arrow went into my chest. And I thought, whoa, boy, am I undone. Because like every red-blooded male, I was filled with unlawful sexual desire and eyes full of adultery, as scripture says.   And that's when I understood the cross. I realized I had sinned. Jesus bore my sin.   And we broke the law, the commandments. Jesus paid the fine. And that meant God could forgive my sins, grant me everlasting life.   And I cannot express to you the joy, it was unspeakable, that's why I can't express it, that I had and the knowledge my sins were forgiven. It was like an explosion of gratitude filled my heart. And for the last 50 years, it's been the high-octane fuel that's driven me to live for God's will and honor.   So everywhere I go and everything I do is centered around sharing the gospel with unsaved people. And every Christian should be like that. I call myself a normal, biblical Christian.   Laura Dugger: (4:48 - 4:59) I love that. Well, and something that you speak about and that you live out is open-air preaching. And I just want to read a piece from the dedication page, if that's okay.   Ray Comfort: (5:01 - 5:03) So, make sure you speak in a New Zealand accent.   Laura Dugger: (5:03 - 5:28) Oh, goodness. I won't even attempt. But you define open-air preaching saying, going somewhere I don't want to go, to preach a message I don't want to preach, to people who don't want to hear it, but the love of Christ compels me.   And so, Ray, what was your journey to becoming an open-air preacher?   Ray Comfort: (5:30 - 9:18) Well, I'll go back to when I was 16. I was in high school, and the teacher had the bright idea to have class speeches. And I was horrified at the thought of class speeches.   Have to get up and make a speech? Because I was kind of introverted, and the day came when I got caught. I used to stay away when they had class speeches, but my name was left on the roster, and it was last.   And the teacher got me up, and I thought I'll speak on the subject of surfing because I just loved surfing. And I dried up in the middle of that speech. My heart just went thump, thump, thump, thump till I could hardly hear.   It was like a drum beating, and I couldn't think straight. And I sat down humiliated in front of my peers at the age of 16, which is huge. And I vowed never, ever to speak in public again.   But I got born again. I became a new person in Christ. And I had a message that I could not be quiet about.   And I remember one day I was on a bus going to the city, and I remember looking at the people that were sitting on the bus, and I thought most of them probably not Christians. They die. They're going to Hell.   I've found everlasting life. I should stand up and speak to them. And I thought the bus would stop, and a whole lot of them would throw me off.   And I thought, what do I do? And I remember praying, oh, God, if there's just some way where I could speak in public to people knowing there wasn't. And two weeks later, they legalized public speaking in our city through just strange circumstances.   And I thought, whoa, what an answer to prayer. Horrors. And I remember avoiding any thought of going into that speaker's corner for the next two weeks until I opened a newspaper.   Remember what newspapers were? I opened a newspaper and had a picture of an elderly lady with a Bible in her hand, and underneath it had the Bible lady sharing her Christian testimony in speaker's corner. And I felt so ashamed that here was an elderly lady, and here I was hiding like Jonah.   So, I went in, took a deep breath, and preached the gospel to a crowd that was standing or sitting there. And I went back about 3,000 times and commuted to it for about 12 years, almost daily for 12 years. So, I broke the sound barrier, and I've been doing it ever since.   And I'll tell you why I do it, because the average church wouldn't reach as many people in a year as a good open-air preacher can reach in 30 minutes. And you just have to learn how to draw a crowd and what to say, and you've got to have the will to say it. And if you're a Christian and you've found everlasting life, you should be saying with the disciples, I cannot but speak that which I've seen and heard.   And I'm so glad the disciples didn't stay in the upper room. They found everlasting life. God granted eternal life.   They didn't carpet out the room, put in pipe music, with a little notice outside their door, tonight, 7 o'clock, all welcome. They didn't do that, because they knew fish don't jump into the boat. That's not normal.   If you're a fisher of men, you've got to go where the fish are. So, they went open-air and preached. And as you read the book of Acts, that's all they did.   They preached open air at peril of their lives. And so if we want to walk in the steps of Jesus, in the steps of the disciples, in the steps of Spurgeon, Wesley, Moody, Whitfield, others down through the ages, then we've got to open our mouths and lift up our voice like a trumpet and show these people their transgression. And so, I am thrilled that you want to do an interview on this book, because I've often said the church has as much excitement about evangelism as you and I have about having a root canal.   It's not exciting. But we all have fears, and we can learn to overcome them.   Laura Dugger: (9:18 - 9:38) Ray, you make already such a compelling argument for why we as Christians are called to evangelize and deliver the good news and specifically calling it as open-air preachers. So, will you still share a few more arguments or reasons to try and help people understand why this is of utmost importance?   Ray Comfort: (9:39 - 10:47) Yes, we have a moral obligation. We're like doctors with a cure to cancer. We must speak, as the disciples said.   And if you've got fear, let me ask you a question. Could you jump into a pond that had big chunks of ice in it? It was so cold that you would die if you stayed in it for three minutes.   And most people say, no, no, you wouldn't get me jumping into that pond for anything. Let's say a four-year-old boy fell into that pond and his feet couldn't reach the bottom, and he began to drown. You wouldn't hesitate.   You'd just jump in. You wouldn't worry about how cold it was. Grab that kid and pull him out.   And the waters of personal evangelism are freezing. Ice cold. We're not excited about it.   Last thing we ever want to do is get involved in something like this. But love cannot but do something. Love couldn't stand there and watch a child drown.   And love cannot sit on a pew while sinners sink into Hell. So, if you've got problems with fear, don't pray for less fear. Pray for more love because that's the problem.   Laura Dugger: (10:48 - 11:02) Ray, I'm curious. You seem so confident and comfortable with this, but clearly you've been doing it, like you said, for many years. So, was there fear at the beginning for you?   And is there still fear when you do this today?   Ray Comfort: (11:03 - 18:09) No, there wasn't fear at the beginning. Fear is here. Terror is here.   Mortification is here. I was up there somewhere. So, the first time I did it was terrifying.   Second time wasn't quite so terrifying. But after all these years, I still battle fear, always. Every person I got a witness to on a one-to-one basis looks like Goliath.   It goes from a Zacchaeus to a Goliath in a split second. I think a witness to that guy, he's anti-Christian. I can see it by the look on his jawline.   He hates Christians. Can't wait to get his fingers around the neck of any Christian because I've got overripe imagination. I remember once I was driving my car and I saw a dead dog on the road about 100 yards ahead of me and it was such a sad sight.   I could see its head was all twisted back and I could see its ears. It was a German shepherd. And as I got up to it, it was someone's jacket that had fallen off his bike.   That's all. And I just had an overripe imagination. And that's exactly what it's like when it comes to fear.   I have an imagination that some guy's going to kill me if I share the gospel with him. So, I've learned to not listen when fear speaks. I've learned to think about the fate of the person rather than myself.   I mean, think of a firefighter. He arrives at a fire, and he looks up and he has to climb a 60-foot ladder. At the top of the ladder is a woman and two children leaning out of a window and the place is on fire.   It's the fifth story. And they're screaming because they're going to be burned alive in about three minutes. So, he's got to climb that ladder amidst the screaming, amidst the smoke and the sirens.   He could drop one of those kids. He could drop that woman. And so, would he rather be at home with his wife and kids watching an old black-and-white movie?   Of course. Is he terrified? Absolutely.   But he doesn't listen to his fears because of this one fact. He's not thinking of himself. He's thinking of that woman and her terrible fate and those kids.   And that's the key to overcoming fear. When I get my fears, I don't listen because I'm not thinking of myself and my silly little fears, my imagination. I'm thinking of this person and their terrible fate, that they die in their sins.   Lake of fire. Damned. If you think death is fearful on this side, wait till the other side.   It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. And the apostle Paul said, Wherefore, knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men. So, if you've got a wrong image of God, it's kind of like a Santa Claus sitting in a cloud.   You won't have a terror in your heart. You won't fear God enough to obey him. You know, Jesus said, “Why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I tell you?”   And so, if we are submitted to Christ, if we yield to him, if he's our Lord, when he says, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” We go. He didn't say to stay. Think of what he said.   Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. I've actually studied the original Greek words of the word all, every, and go. Go actually means in the original, I think it's passe.   The original Greek, it actually means go. Into all the world and all the world. That word all means all in the original Greek.   And to every creature means every creature. So, when Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature”, in the original Greek, he actually was saying, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” So, we're so fortunate to have Greek lexicons and things that we can go back and see what Jesus was actually saying.   And so, it's very simple. We shouldn't stay. We shouldn't want to fill our churches with people when they come in, where to go out and get them.   And one of the most effective ways is with open air preaching. And so, we teach people how to get a crowd. Now, when I first started speaking, I would begin open air preaching with an anecdote, something very gripping.   And it was always difficult because if I didn't live up to that, I didn't get a crowd. And so, for about four or five or six years, it was very difficult. And then I started asking trivia and giving away money.   And I've been doing that for 30, 40 years, where you say to a crowd, I've got some trivia questions, giving away money. And a preacher giving away money is like water running uphill. It's kind of unnatural, so it gets people's attention.   So, I'm going to ask trivia questions. I've got money here to give away. When you get it right. What's the capital of France? Anyone know?    And someone says, “Paris?” That's right.   Here you are. What's the capital of China? Beijing or whatever it is.   Give out a dollar. Say, “What's your name?” Fred.   That's right. And you give Fred a dollar and people laugh, and they gather around and it's just a great way to get rapport with a crowd. And while you're doing that, you look around to see who's got confidence.   This guy over here, or Fred, laughs when I say, “Here's a dollar, and he yells out answers.” I say, “Fred, you want to go for $5?” He says, “Sure.”   So, jump up on the box. So, we've got a box for the hecklers. So, you think you're a good person?   He says, “Yeah, I'm a really good person.” So, if you are, you get $5. If you're not, give me $5 anyway.   Just being a good sport. So, we're going to go through the Ten Commandments to see how you're going to do on Judgment Day and if you are a good person. Let me take him through the commandments as Jesus did with the rich young ruler.   How many lies have you told? Ever stole something? Ever used God's name in vain?   Ever looked at women with lust? And Fred says, “Yeah, I've done all those.” So, Fred, you've just told me you're a lying thief, a blasphemer, and an adulterer at heart.   And you have to face God on Judgment Day. You're going to be innocent or guilty? He says, “Guilty.”   Heaven or Hell? Hell. Does that concern you?   Yeah, sure it does. And the crowd's listening. It's not some sweaty preacher pointing a finger at them.   They're just listening to the gospel. And so, it's a great way. And then you go into that Christ died for our sins, took our punishment.   And Fred, “Thanks for listening. I really appreciate this. Here's your dollar.”   I've got a book for you that I wrote. I hope you enjoy it. Nice to meet you.   He shook his hand. He's off. Anyone else, like any atheists here, never be intimidated by an atheist.   Atheism is the epitome of stupidity. It's just so dumb. Every time I meet an atheist, I ask him one question, and I've seen so many atheists backslide when they've heard this.   I say, “Do you really believe the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything? Puppies and kittens and flowers and seeds and the marvels of the human eye and the miracle of childbirth. All this happened because nothing created it. Do you really believe that?”    They say, “Oh, no, I don't believe that. Oh, there was something in the beginning.”   I say, “Oh, it just wasn't God. Is that it?” Yeah, that's it.   It was something, but it wasn't God. Well, let's see if we can find out why you don't want it to be God. When did you last look at pornography?   I say, “Oh, it was last night. What do you think God thinks of that?” And you realize the issue isn't intellectual.   It's moral. They're running from God like Adam, hiding behind bushes. And so, you've just got to flush them out and then use the Ten Commandments to bring the knowledge of sin and address the conscience rather than the intellect.   Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. With over 1,700 apartment units available throughout Pekin, Peoria, Peoria Heights, Morton, Washington, and Canton, and with every price range covered, you will have plenty of options when you rent through Leman Property Management Company. Leman Property Management Company They have townhomes, duplexes, studios, and garden-style options located in many areas throughout Pekin.   In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect. And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location, and now, a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park.   Their beautiful, spacious apartments with private garages in a quiet but convenient location await you in Washington. And if you're looking in Canton, don't miss Village Square Apartments. Renters may be excited to learn about their flexible leases, pet-friendly locations, and even mini-storage units available in some locations.   Leman Property Management Company has a knowledgeable and helpful staff including several employees with over 30 years working with this reputable company. If you want to become a part of their team, contact them about open office positions. They're also hiring in their maintenance department, so we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them.   Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at leasing@lemanprops.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com. That's L-E-M-A-N-P-R-O-P-E-R-T-Y. Check them out and find your place to call home today.    As you've done this, what has been your experience along the way? And would you even share a few stories of times that this has gone miraculously well and times that have been such a struggle?   Ray Comfort: (20:19 - 30:16) It's always a struggle. But let me share the two great keys that I use when it comes to evangelism. I don't even like using the word evangelism because it scares Christians.   Apologetics. And that is this. I address the conscience, as Jesus did.   When you're in apologetics, and I believe in apologetics, we've got what's called the Evidence Study Bible, which is pregnant with apologetics. So, I believe in apologetics, but they have their place. Apologetics are like bait when you're fishing for men.   If you stay with bait, you're going to end up with fat, happy fish that get away. You've got to have a hook, and that hook is God's law. So, you bait the hook.   And so, it's important if you bait the hook with apologetics and address the intellect to realize this one fact. Romans 8:7 says, “The carnal mind is enmity against God, for it's not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” What does that mean?   It means the carnal, natural mind of man is in a state of hostility towards God, particularly His law. It's not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. And you can see this enmity by the fact that human beings lavished with life by God use His name as a cuss word, and the name of Jesus as a cuss word.   Nobody in history has had their name used as a cuss word except Jesus, Jesus Christ, and God. And that shows the enmity they have towards their Creator because they're criminals. And as criminals hate the police, so sinners hate God without cause.   So, you want to move away from the carnal mind because you're going to get enmity. If you say, “Look, I'm going to show you that Noah did build an ark. I'm going to prove it to you there was a big flood.” And so you go through the whole thing that the ark was really big and the animals were small and it could have happened. Then we've got oceans and that's evidence that the earth was flooded. You get this guy who was a skeptic who'd say, “Okay, I believe there was a big flood and Noah could have built an ark.”   Well, great. Now you've got a mountain to climb of Jonah being swallowed by a big fish. Children of Israel shouting and walls coming down when they shout.   Balaam's donkey speaking with a man's voice. Samson with strength in his hair. And you've got all these stories, and they're all an intellectual thing, and they're like a mountain you've got to climb to convince them to believe there's an easier way.   And the early Christians didn't try and convince anyone the Bible is the word of God because they didn't have a New Testament. There was no printing press. No one could read or hardly anyone could read.   Now they just preached the gospel, and you do it not by going for the intellect and trying to intellectually convince someone that God exists or the Bible's the word of God. You do what Jesus did with a rich young ruler. You address the conscience with the commandments.   You shall not lie, shall not steal, shall not commit adultery. It's all written on the heart of man. Conscience means knowledge.   So that knowledge is there. So, the commandments echo the truth, or the conscience echoes the truth of the commandments. When Paul used the commandments in Romans chapter 2, you who say you shall not steal, do you steal?   You say, “You shall not commit adultery; do you commit adultery?” He was addressing the conscience. Romans 2:15, same chapter, would show the work of the law written on their hearts, the conscience bearing witness.   So, I have an ally right in the heart of the enemy. I have a judge on the court and in the mind of every sinner that's going to affirm the truth of what I'm saying and point guilt to the sinner or show him that he's guilty. That's the conscience.   The second great tool I have or weapon I have is the will to live. Human beings are not dogs, horses, cats, or cows. We're completely different.   We're not primates. We're made in the image of God and God has written eternity upon our hearts. He doesn't seem to have done this with my dog.   My dog's only concerned with chasing cats and eating. I don't think there's anything else that really interests her, although I love her, but she's not worrying about eternity, but human beings do. So, I know, according to scripture, that everybody has this will to live.   So, when I go to the local college, and I go there twice a day, to interview people for our YouTube channel. I often say this, “Would you like to go on YouTube?” They say, “Yeah.”   I'm going to ask you, “If you think there's life after death.” I say, “That's okay, and this is my first question. Are you afraid of dying?”   And they go, “A little bit.” A little bit? It's huge.   It's a tormenting fear of death. It haunts you, and that's what the Bible says, this fear of death that we have. And I can tell by the look in the eyes of this person, they're saying, “How did this guy know?”   I haven't told mom or dad. I haven't told my boyfriend or my girlfriend, my brother, my sister, but there's something in me that's terrified of dying. Hebrews 2:14-15 tells us.   Amplified Bible, so I'll quote it a little louder. It says, “That God has caused the fear of death or the will to live to be haunting,” it uses the word haunting, “within every human being all their lifetime.” Remember when I was a kid, maybe nine or ten, I used to play wars, cowboys and Indians, and someone would shoot me. I'd roll down a hill and lie there for two minutes and then get up.   And then one day as I got older, I thought, I'm not going to get up one day. And that's that haunting fear of death. That revelation that comes to us, as light comes to us, as we get older. And so, I address that, and this is what I say, “Ever read the Bible?”    “No, never opened it.”    “Why not? It's the world's biggest selling book of all time. Did you know in the Old Testament, God promised he would destroy death? And in the New Testament, we're told how he did it. Did you know that?”    They say, “No.”    “Is he interested?”   And even if it's an atheist, he's going to say, “Yeah, I'm interested.” Because he's got that haunting fear of death. And so, then I go through the gospel. This is the verse that I share with so many people, and it's the most illuminating verse, and I can see light coming to them as I say this.   I say, “Have you ever heard the Bible verse, the wages of sin is death?” And they say, “Maybe.” It's saying that God is paying you in death for your sins.   Like a judge who looks at a criminal who's committed murder, but he thinks he's a good person. The judge says, “I'm going to show you how serious your crime is. I'm giving you the death sentence.”   This is your wages. This is what you've earned. And I say, “Fred, sin is so serious to a holy God, he's given you the death sentence.”   You're on death row. You're in a holding cell. It's got a nice blue roof, good air conditioning, good lighting, but this life is a holding cell, and your death will be evidence to you that God is deadly serious about sin.   That has a sobering effect on people because now they've got a reason why they die. Now they know what's going to happen after they die. It's appointed a man.   It's appointment. It's appointed a man who wants to die, and after this, the judgment. And as you go through the commandments, it shows them how they need a Savior.   And so many people say, I'm going to really think about this. Thank you for talking to me. I say, “When are you going to repent and put your trust in Jesus?”   And so many people lately have been saying, “Today.” So, the pandemic, that plague that no one calls a plague, the pandemic did us a huge favor because it made a whole generation think about their mortality, made them realize they're going to die one day. And so, the harvest fields are white.   One other thought regarding the fear of death and the will to live, the same thing. Think of a waitress who has to approach three men, businessmen wearing dark suits and little briefcases sitting at a table. They're obviously wheeling and dealing millions of dollars.   Is she intimidated? No. She just walks up and says, “Can I take your order?”   Why is she so bold? It's because she knows she has what they want. They're there for food.   And so that makes her bold. And you and I have what this world wants. Right at this moment, there are people in torture chambers called gyms, lifting weights that are far too heavy for them, pulling things they shouldn't be pulling.   And I believe in physical fitness is great. And at the same time, there are people drinking green slime. They would love a chocolate shake, but they drink because they want to increase their life just that little bit more.   We have found everlasting life. So, if the world knew what we had, they would ask us. This is what Jesus said to the woman at the well.   If you knew who it was that was speaking to you, you would ask me. And if the world knew what we had, everlasting life, they'd plead with us. So, because we know we have what the world wants, like that waitress, we must be bold.   And when they realize that we have the answer to death that Jesus Christ has abolished death. When that revelation comes to them, what causes death. That Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, he destroyed death, bringing life and immortality to light through the gospel. That's when the light goes on and they say, “Thank you so much. Thank you for talking to me.” I've just about worn myself out.   Laura Dugger: (30:16 - 30:30) Well, that's incredible to hear, especially the breakdown practically of how you do that. And I would say, “Do you even give people permission to use some of those examples if they want to give this a try?”   Ray Comfort: (30:31 - 31:18) I would plead with them to do so. We've got the evidence Bible. It's filled with how to do these things.   And that book, Fifty Years of Open-Air Preaching: Everything I've Learned is filled with stuff like this. How to get a crowd standing up nice and orderly. There's a picture, I don't know if you can see it, at Berkeley University.   They're all standing around nice in a big circle. That's where you get stoned to death, Berkeley. But because we understand these principles, we just drew a circle out of chalk and said, stand behind the circle.   If anyone got in front of the circle, approached us, we wouldn't talk to them unless they got to the edge of the circle. And people are like sheep. If you say, “Move back behind the chalk line. Do it now.” Okay. They'll do it, if you've got a little bit of authority.   And so, you just learn to do things like that. And it means the gospel can go out. So yeah, please, please use these principles.   Laura Dugger: (31:19 - 31:34) And then can you also just paint a picture. If somebody's never seen this before, they've never tried this before, are there any memorable encounters that you've had as you reflect back on these years of open air preaching?   Ray Comfort: (31:35 - 33:54) Yes. Oh, I've got beaten up by a woman once. Oh dear.   I'll have to tell you. I was in Santa Monica many years ago, and I had a crowd of maybe 40, 50 people. And there's a woman there that was very vocal and kept calling me, using the F word a couple of times.   So, I said, “Ma'am, can you watch your language? There are ladies present.” And she said, “I'm a lady.”   I said, “Ma'am, you may be a woman, but you are not a lady.” And with that, she ran at me like a bat out of heaven and began beating me up. Now, most women go scratch, and hair pulling, but she was like Mike Tyson's sister. She got in six punches, knocked me to the ground before my team pulled her off.   They held her back. And she said, let me go and get my purse. They let her go.   And she gave me a kidney punch and took two weeks for the bruising to go, but she doubled my crowd. She can come back anytime she wants. But that was my fault.   And that was very memorable. So, I talk nicely to ladies now. One to one, one of the most memorable ones is a guy named Mario.   Our YouTube channel's got 1.57 million subscribers, just past 314 million views. And one of the best, most gripping encounters was with a guy named Mario. I went out on my bike.   My dog's on my bike. She's on a platform. She wears sunglasses.   I wear sunglasses. It gets people's attention. She's the best bait I've ever had when fishing for men.   Saw this guy standing by a tree on a pathway, and I said, “You want to come on camera?” He said, “Yeah.” I was surprised because I didn't have to talk him into it.   And he was quite arrogant, very handsome young man. And as we went through the commandments, I saw a tear well in his eye and roll down his cheek. And I thought, oh, no, God's doing a work in the heart of this guy, and I don't want to mess it up.   And so, I did my best to end up praying with him, and he was just beside himself in sorrow for his sin. And I think that's something like 4 million views on a YouTube channel. If you go to the most popular to see it, you'll see him there.   But that was a very memorable encounter. One that I often think when I'm going out on my bike each day. Lord, give me a Mario today, please.   Laura Dugger: (33:55 - 34:58) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?   Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.   Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share.   We appreciate you. It's compelling to hear this and inspiring, but then also if we're going back to talking about the fears. What fears do you see holding people back from giving this a try or from evangelizing in general?   Ray Comfort: (34:59 - 37:37) That is a great question, and you provoke something very important. I've traveled on about 2,000 flights, itinerating over the years, and so many times I've prayed, and when there's an empty seat on a plane beside me, I always pray for the person who's going to sit there. This is the prayer I subliminally pray.   Lord, please don't let this guy show up. That's what I pray. And then he shows up, and I share the gospel with him.   My hardest, my biggest mountain to climb was how do you bring the subject up? Okay, I'm on a plane. This guy's a businessman.   He's wearing a three-piece suit. He's very intimidating, and I've got to talk to him about the things of God and sin and righteousness and judgment. How do I bring the subject up with this guy?   Oh, see those clouds? Guess who made the clouds? God.   No, it's just terrifying. But I learned something many years ago that just dissipated that fear of man and the fear of women, and that's this. I just say to any stranger, “Do you think there's an afterlife?”   That's a simple question. Do you think there's life after death? I haven't mentioned God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell, sin, righteousness, judgment, any of those things that make him feel uncomfortable.   I just said, do you think there's an afterlife? And this is how I do it, and I've done it many times. I'm at the ministry now in our studio.   Many a time I've had workmen come. Let's say there's a plumber working on something. I go up to him and say, “Hey, how are you doing?”   He says, “Good.” I'm Ray. What's your name?   He says, “Eric.” Nice to meet you, Eric. Eric, what?   I've got a question for you, “Do you think there's an afterlife?” Eric stands up and says, “I don't know.”   I say, “Do you think about it much?” Yeah, all the time. His all the time just dissipated my fears.   He's not antichrist. He hasn't stabbed me to death. He's a normal human being.   He thinks about the issues of life and death all the time. And so, I've got confidence. And the thing that got me in there was that question, do you think there's an afterlife?   You can ask anyone. Even Uncle Arthur at the Christmas lunch, sitting there and usually he's working. Uncle Arthur, do you think there's an afterlife? Haven't mentioned God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell. Just let him talk.   He says, “Oh, I don't know about heaven.” So Rich, “You ever read the Bible?” Oh, let me get you my Bible.   Let me lend it to you. It just opens the door and lets them do the talking. So never forget that.   You can talk to any stranger about the things of God by just asking that question. Do you think there's an afterlife? And I do it every day.   Laura Dugger: (37:38 - 37:57) Wow. And I love it, even before we began recording when we were just getting to know each other for a moment. And then you said, well, before we begin, shall we do this in the flesh, or should we pray?   And I love that. I think that's such an approachable first step to this.   Ray Comfort: (37:57 - 38:07) Well, you just have to do something in the flesh to know how terrible it is. You need a pulpit, and you think, oh God, I need your help. So, I always pray.   Laura Dugger: (38:08 - 38:24) Absolutely. That's very relatable. And so, if we're considering this invitation to evangelize publicly, what do you think this looks like for men and for women?   And do you see any difference between the two?   Ray Comfort: (38:25 - 39:21) Yes, I do. When I look at my wife, I see different from the local workman that comes to work around our home. But physically, no, I don't.   Yeah. When Jesus had gone to all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, he didn't say, “Oh, that's just for men.” No.   Look at the woman at the well. She went off and shared the gospel with the whole village. And so, if a woman's got the courage to stand up and do what men won't do, God bless her.   I think that's wonderful. And so, I'm all for women and women stay silent at the church. Well, that's for the church.   That's church discipline. But when it comes to sharing the gospel, telling people how they can find everlasting life, women can do just as well with men and a woman can do good with five people or 10 people. Now she can gather a crowd of 200 at a university and share how to find everlasting life.   God bless her. And thank you for her, Aud.   Laura Dugger: (39:22 - 39:35) Thank you for sharing that. And can you think of just an easy or approachable next step, something that we could do today that takes inspiration from this conversation and turns it into action?   Ray Comfort: (39:35 - 39:38) Yes. Get the book.   Laura Dugger: (39:40 - 39:41) Absolutely.   Ray Comfort: (39:41 - 39:48) And I'll watch our YouTube channel too. I love it. It'll really help you build confidence.   Thank you for that.   Laura Dugger: (39:49 - 40:01) My pleasure. So, if we do determine that we're going to apply what we've learned today, then there's another side to this as well. What kind of attack can we expect from our enemy?   Ray Comfort: (40:02 - 42:34) Oh, full on. You're going to get negative thoughts. You can't do this.   You shouldn't do this. What are you going to do if you dry up? The dry up thing is a real big fear.   I'm going to get up there and I'll say, “My mind's gone blank.” Well, just have a Gospel of John in your pocket, a little New Testament, maybe a little Gideon in your pocket there. And if you dry up, just say, “Oh, excuse me, I want to read this to you.”   You've got John 3:16, corner turned down. Just say, “For God so loved the world and gave his only begotten son who believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” Please think about that.   Close it and get down. Or you can keep speaking. And so, if you've got an out, that will dissipate your fears if you know you can get out if that happens.   I've used it many a time. I mean the fear of every preacher is drying up in a pulpit. I remember I was in a church of 3,000 once and I lost my place.   So, you know what I did? I just said, look at that over there. And everyone looked at the wall.   I said, I just lost my place. Or I'll say something like this. “Turn to Leviticus 15:3.”   And everyone goes, shh, shh, shh. I look for my place. I've got my thoughts back.   And they say that was a fake scripture. I don't know what it is. I wanted to do something while I was trying to find my place.   And there I've never had problems drying up in the pulpit because I know that's my way out. And it's the same with open air preaching. If you dry up, you're just going to quote John 3:16 or begin reading Genesis chapter 1 to the crowd.   “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” And just knowing you've got that out will help dissipate your fears. And when you're finished, you'll have such a joy.   I say to our team, whenever you go to preach the gospel, you're dragging your feet. When you come back, you'll be clicking your heels.   And that's exactly what happens. You'll have such satisfaction that you did what you know you should. You overcame that Goliath.   You ran at Goliath and overcame your fears. And so just do it. If you want to learn to swim, you don't study water.   You jump in. That's the best way to learn to swim. And, you know, if you're going to drown, it's a pity more people don't know this, but if you just relax, you'll float.   If you panic, you'll probably sink. And it's the same with this. Don't panic.   Just trust in the Lord. Say, “Lord, you'll fill my mouth. You'll help me out with this.”   And he'll float. He'll float you. He'll take you by the hand, and you'll be fine.   I've done it thousands of times, and God's never let me down.   Laura Dugger: (42:36 - 43:00) Amen. I hope we all are willing to give it a try. I think that you really articulated it well when you narrow it down to that fear of man, fear of woman.   And I love also that just do it, and we can do it scared. But you're so full of these practical tips. There's one about hecklers that we haven't covered yet.   Can you share your perspective on hecklers?   Ray Comfort: (43:01 - 44:02) Hecklers are wonderful. If you fear hecklers, you're fearing the thing that could make what you're doing a great success. A good heckler, if he's handled well, can take a crowd of 15 people to 150 people in about 30, 40 seconds.   And all you do is let him vent. There's one, I think we've got, it's called The Angry Atheist. I think it's one of our videos.   And this guy was furious, a Christian. So, I just let him vent, and the crowd thickened up, and then we started one by one dealing with his problems. And just always remember a soft answer turns away wrath.   If someone's angry, you just speak, what's your name? And they'll say, “Oh, John.” Nice to meet you, John.   That's a nice sweater. I remember once a lady came up, this young lady. She was really angry, and I did say the sweater thing to her when she was yelling at me.   I said, “That's a nice sweater.” She said, “Really?” I said, “Where'd you get it?”   And so, a soft answer turns away wrath. So, you just learn these little things that can really help.   Laura Dugger: (44:03 - 44:14) I love that. And just as a model for us, if we want to share the good news of Jesus, you've done this time and time again. Will you share it with all of us now?   Ray Comfort: (44:16 - 46:05) What are you trying to do to me? You mean you'd like the gospel? Absolutely.   One-minute gospel presentation. Okay, let's do a nutshell. Let me say, I'm meeting a stranger.   I'll talk directly to them. You know, God's placed a will to live within you. Something in you says, I don't want to die.   Did you know the Bible says, “Jesus Christ has abolished death and brought life and immortality to life through the gospel?” And the reason you're going to die is because you've sinned against God. And all you have to do for a few minutes with an honest heart is go through the commandments.   The seventh commandment says, “You shall not commit adultery, but Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, you commit adultery in your heart, lying lips and abomination to the Lord. No thief will inherit God's kingdom.”    Ever stolen something? Ever used God's name in vain? And if you've been honest, you'll know you've sinned against God. And if all your sin comes out on Judgment Day as evidence of your guilt, you're going to end up justly in Hell, and that breaks my heart.   And God is not willing that any perish. The Bible says, “He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and he's provided a way for you to be forgiven by Christ dying on the cross.” We broke God's law.   Jesus paid the fine. It's as simple as that. That means you can leave the courtroom.   God can dismiss your case. He can take death off you because of what Jesus did through his death and resurrection. And all you have to do is so simple a child can understand it.   You must repent, turn from your sins. You'll never do that while you think you're a good person. And trust in Jesus like you trust a parachute.   The minute you do that, you've got God's promise, and he cannot lie. He'll grant you everlasting life as a free gift, not because you're good, but because He's good and kind and rich in mercy. And don't put it off until tomorrow because you may not have tomorrow.   Fifty-four million people die every year. Today, if you hear his voice, don't harden your heart.   Laura Dugger: (46:07 - 46:10) It just never gets old hearing that.   Ray Comfort: (46:10 - 46:10) No.   Laura Dugger: (46:10 - 46:28) Thank you. And you also bring up even so clearly from scripture but sharing repent and believe. And is there anything else that you would want to make sure that we wouldn't leave out of a conversation if we were evangelizing to someone?   Ray Comfort: (46:29 - 48:02) Well, another good question. Yeah, a lot of people are saying all you have to do is believe. Just believe.   They say if you repent, that's works. Well, by saying you have to believe, that's works. If you have to do anything, believe.   No, the Bible says, “By grace you're saved through faith, through faith, and not of yourselves.” It's God's grace that saves us. But if you read scripture, it comes through repentance and faith.   And the reason they want to drop repentance is because they don't see the true nature of sin. And what the commandments do, the Ten Commandments, they open up the law and show sin to be exceedingly sinful, and that necessitates repentance. Like with David, when he realized he'd committed adultery and lied and stolen his neighbor's wife, covered his neighbor's wife, murdered his neighbor, that's when he cried out, “Oh, have mercy upon me, oh God, according to your lovingkindness.”   If Nathan hadn't said, “Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord, and David hadn't said, I've sinned against heaven, he would have just said, oh, just believe. No, he had to get before God and agonize. Scripture says, “Cleanse your hands, you sinners.”   Purify your hearts, you double-minded. Let your laugh to be turned to mourning and your joy to heaviness.” That's contrition.   And the law that shows us the nature of sin produces contrition, sorrow for sin, which works repentance, godly sorrow, works repentance unto life. So, it's most necessary to preach, as Jesus did, repent and believe in that order.   Laura Dugger: (48:04 - 48:13) That is so good. Ray, where can we go to continue learning from you and continue to be inspired by the faithful work that you're doing?   Ray Comfort: (48:14 - 48:46) Very kind of you to say that. LivingWaters.com, sign up for our newsletter. We've always got interesting stuff.   We give away a lot of stuff. Watch the YouTube channel. We have different videos each day.   We put one up four days ago that's had 4.6 million views. And so, it's a wonderful way to reach the lost. So, follow us.   Just become part of a YouTube channel, subscribe, and that really helps us and helps further our reach. So LivingWaters.com and LivingWaters YouTube.   Laura Dugger: (48:47 - 49:05) Wonderful. We'll make sure to add those links in the show notes for today's episode. And as you already know, our podcast is entitled The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, Ray, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Ray Comfort: (49:06 - 49:12) My wife. Is that okay to say that?   Laura Dugger: (49:12 - 49:17) I love that. Do you want to say anything more specific about her?   Ray Comfort: (49:17 - 49:44) Sue and I have been married for 108 years, 54. We love each other. She's my best friend.   She works at the ministry and also I love my dog. And one thing I might say just as we close is don't call this anything to do with evangelism. That'll kill.   Use the word apologetics or say Ray Comfort says this about his wife. Anything other than evangelism that scares Christians off.   Laura Dugger: (49:45 - 49:50) Wow. Interesting. So that's been your experience.   That makes sense.   Ray Comfort: (49:51 - 50:25) Yeah. That's a principle we use at the ministry. If we have a conference, don't mention evangelism.   No one will come. It's like someone saying to me, “Hey, want to go door knocking, tell people about Jesus?” I go; I just wouldn't want to do that.   And there's a reason for it. As a new Christian, I knocked on someone's door, fully aware that Jehovah's Witnesses had stolen our thunder, and I said to this lady, “Hello, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness.” She said, “Well, I am.”   And so, I've got this aversion to door knocking, and that's what most Christians are like when it comes to evangelism. So, call it something else.   Laura Dugger: (50:25 - 50:50) Wow. So practical, again. And Ray, you've just stewarded your many gifts that God has given you.   You've stewarded them so well and so wisely. I can just imagine God greeting you someday and having just, well done, good and faithful servant. So, thank you for generously taking the time to share with us today.   I'm grateful for you, and I just want to say thank you for being my guest.   Ray Comfort: (50:51 - 50:52) Well, thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger: (50:53 - 54:35) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

We often do an internal check in with ourselves when it comes to work, parenthood, or our friendships, but when was the last time you asked yourself, "How am I doing as a son or daughter?" In this impactful message in our sermon season, "Messages That Marked Us," Pastor Jon Chasteen teaches us what an orphan heart looks like and how to replace that with our true identities as sons and daughters to a Heavenly Father! We pray this message would serve as an invitation to see yourself the way God sees you--not as an orphan, but as a son or daughter! Scripture references: John 14:15-18 (NIV) Romans 8:14-16 (TPT) Galatians 4:1-7 (TPT)   Connect With Us: To learn more about Victory Church and to get connected, visit us at https://victory.church/   Worship Gathering Times: To see locations & worship gathering times, visit https://victory.church/locations/   Prayer: We believe in praying big prayers to a big God and expecting big results. If you're in need of prayer, our team would be honored to pray with you. You can reach us for prayer at https://victory.church/prayer Giving: At Victory, we steward God's resources well and with radical generosity. If you'd like to give toward the mission of Victory Church, visit https://victory.church/give/ Follow Us:   OKC Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victorychurchokc/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/victorychurchok   Edmond Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victoryedmond/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/victory.churchEDM   Grapevine (Texas) Campus: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victorychurchgrapevine/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089341962919  

266. Choosing Fun and Adventure in Your Marriage and with Your Family: An Interview with Dan & Sam Mathews   Isaiah 55:12 MSG “So you'll go out in joy, you'll be led into a whole and complete life. The mountains and hills will lead the parade, bursting with song. All the trees of the forest will join the procession, exuberant with applause. No more thistles, but giant sequoias, no more thornbushes, but stately pines— Monuments to me, to God, living and lasting evidence of God.”   *Transcription Below*   Dan and Sam Mathews have been married since 2014 and currently reside in Missouri with their two kids, Canyon and Ember. Since the moment they got married, Dan and Samantha have been living a life of sacrifice and faith. From backpacking in Arkansas to RV road trips across the US, they have always taken the adventurous route. Sam is a lifestyle vlogger and content creator, and Dan hosts a hunting podcast in addition to his social platforms. Together they share their life of adventure online with millions of followers. Follow them on socials @wearedanandsam.    Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are a few adventures you're so grateful you said yes to in life? Matthew 25:26 MSG says, "That's a terrible way to live! It's criminal to live cautiously like that!" So drawing your wisdom from the Lord, how does your faith fuel your sense of adventure?  How can we begin to enjoy an adventurous life in our marriage and with our family?   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce Podcast: 82 Traveling with Your Family with Katie Mueller 242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel     Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger:  (0:11 - 1:47) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.   Owned and operated by the Burchie family, Sam Leman's Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at lemangm.com.    Dan and Sam Mathews are my guests for today, and you may know them from all the social platforms at WeAreDanAndSam.   They live a life of high faith and delightful adventure, and their book, Always Choose Adventure: One Couple's Journey of Chasing the Things in Life That Matter Most, is actually going to release this month. I would highly recommend it. It was an amazing read.   I read through it so fast, and it was a great combination of enjoying the stories but learning so much along the way. It's kind of like our chat for today. We're going to cover various stories, but Dan and Sam are also going to give us simple and practical ideas and tips for adding a sense of fun into our marriage and into our family life.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Dan and Sam.    Dan Mathews: (1:47 - 1:48) Thank you for having us. We're excited. We are really excited.   Laura Dugger: (1:49 - 1:59) Well, I'm so excited to journey back and get to hear more of your story, but will you first just give us an overview of what current life looks like right now?   Sam Mathews: (2:00 - 2:29) Yes. Currently, I'm 22 weeks pregnant with our third baby. We have two kiddos.   Canyon is almost nine. Ember is seven. We live in Southern Missouri.   We love adventuring and traveling, and Dan hunts. We share life on every platform, so just lifestyle, vlogging, and sharing our adventures. We recently settled down in a home, and so this is our first time doing DIYs for ourselves.   Yeah, it's a fun season right now.   Dan Mathews: (2:29 - 2:46) And Sam loves to host, so I think we have 48 parties scheduled this summer and knocked out a couple already, but yeah, we're excited about life, excited about adventure, and sharing that with people and how they can actually get out and adventure more.   Laura Dugger: (2:47 - 3:01) You do that so well, but if we're going back then to more of the origin stories, will you both share your journey of growing up and your stories that eventually led for the two of you to overlap with one another?   Sam Mathews: (3:01 - 3:37) Yeah, definitely. It's always been me, my mom, and my sister. My mom was a single mom raising us, born in California, but then she moved us to Southern Missouri when I was young, and this was a great place to raise us.   In the Bible Belt, we were raised pretty much in church. She did an amazing job as a single mom, just caring for us and pointing us to Christ. We got plugged into a church very early on.   We volunteered there. My sister and I worked there. We attended there, and so we're really involved, and that's how I met Dan when he came to Bible College.   Dan Mathews: (3:37 - 4:58) Yeah, I grew up in central Wisconsin. We went to church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, was very, very involved with the kid's ministry and youth group and just any opportunity I could be around that church community, I was. We had a group called Master's Commission that would come up and do outreach at our church.   They were from Florida, and I was like, man, I want to do that one day. These guys are awesome. They're doing human videos, and they're all musical.   My dad's brother and his family moved down to Southern Missouri, and I get a call one day right after high school. They were like, “Hey, there's a Master's Commission program down here. If you want to do it, we'll pay for it.” I was like, “Sure, let's do it.” Almost no questions asked, just kind of like, all right, tell me the date I have to be there. Then, I started packing stuff up and quit my job and moved down knowing absolutely nobody. I got plugged into the church. I became very, very involved, and then just built a community, and through that, I went there with Sam's sister, her older sister, and I got to know Sam, and then I ended up working out at the gym that she worked at.   Sam Mathews: (4:59 - 5:00) Which was at our church.   Dan Mathews: (5:00 - 5:15) Which was at the church, and so we were just around each other all the time, and that kind of developed over years and years and years. Then one day, I was like, wow, this chick is awesome, and now we're here doing podcasting.   Laura Dugger: (5:16 - 5:32) Which is incredible. Okay, so just to pause, and you go into more of these stories, love your books, so easy to read, but can you take us back to what you both first thought of one another when you were meeting those days at the gym? Oh, gee.   Sam Mathews: (5:33 - 6:22) For sure, Dan is the life of the party, like he is comedy, and just, he has all the jokes, and definitely a charmer with all the ladies, but so fun to be around, and not only his humor draws you in, but I didn't grow up with a father, and so I liked the, I don't know, like strong aspect that he had, just like the confidence, and then his relationship with the Lord was something that I desired to have for myself, you know, a leader in a couple like together, someone to point me towards Christ, but the lightheartedness and jokes and humor keep the hard days fun, but that for me was, you know, I always can count on you for a good joke.   Dan Mathews: (6:23 - 6:41) Yeah, I, when I first met Sam, it was kind of in a group setting, and it was with her older sister with my younger brother, and it was like, oh, this is, you know, Justine's sister. Little sister. Didn't really think a whole lot of it, but after a couple years, I think you were probably a sophomore at that time when I first met you.   Sam Mathews: (6:41 - 6:42) Yeah.   Dan Mathews: (6:42 - 7:36) And, and then after a couple years, it was like she was volunteering in the youth group, and she was on the recreation staff at our camps, and so it's like we were spending more time together, and I'm like, oh, Justine's sister's kind of cute, and yeah, we started, we started just kind of a friendship. We were just around each other all the time. I mean, like before we were dating, we're really interested in each other.   It's like I was walking back from the lake, and she'd hop on my back, and I'd just give her a piggyback ride up to the cabins, and then looking back, I'm like, wow, our lives just were really intermingled and overlapped for years and years, but early on, she was younger. She had braces. She was a hip-hop dance instructor, so I mean, she would have like one sweat pant leg rolled up, high-top Nikes on all the time, like thought she was the coolest thing ever.   Laura Dugger: (7:36 - 7:52) I was. I didn't think. Oh, that's amazing.   I love that, and my husband and I were also friends first, and I feel like that does set you up well in marriage. Like you've got your built-in buddy.   Sam Mathews: (7:53 - 8:30) Exactly. I was going through pictures yesterday, because I was going to post a trend online, and it was like, oh, how cute. How many months have you been married?   And it's like months? You put a picture for every year, and it's like we've known each other since like 2008, maybe 2009. Then, like started our like dating in 2010. I look at pictures of us from 2010 as a couple. I'm like, oh, my gosh, we've grown so much just like, you know, like physically, but even just relationally and spiritually, and like it's crazy looking back, and so thankful for so many years of friendship with him, but you know, relationship-wise, it's been great.   Dan Mathews: (8:30 - 8:52) Well, and I feel like doing life together is a great model before ever like the romantic side comes in. You get to know the person in group settings. You get to know who they are without the interest, because people can put on a different face once you're trying to impress somebody, you know, but we were just being our genuine selves around each other for a long time.   Sam Mathews: (8:52 - 8:59) Probably saw some stupid moments, some hard moments, but that's, yeah, that's what you want to see before you get into a relationship with someone.   Laura Dugger: (9:00 - 9:12) Absolutely. Yeah. And as we're starting back that far, then when you reflect back, what are some of the adventures that you're most grateful you've said yes to in life?   Sam Mathews: (9:13 - 10:38) Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I feel like dating, we weren't even dating at this point, the canoe trip when you did a master's commission, and that was so fun.   It was like all of his friends, my sister, all the master's commission group went kayaking, and I decided to tag along as a sibling, and his brother did, and maybe a couple others. And that was fun, but it also gave me an opening into how Dan adventures, because his way of adventuring is way different than mine. I grew up, like I said, with a mom.   We would camp at a cabin, and you'd pack the car full of everything you need. Dan would literally just put everything in a backpack and hike in two miles to go camping. And so being in that group, going kayaking, it was so fun, and it sparked this new love for adventure and new desire to learn a new way of adventuring.   That was so fun. I mean, that was before we were married, but this is kind of jumping far ahead, but when we were married, we moved to Colorado for a couple of years, and although it was a hard season for us, we learned so much. We gained so much from it.   A lot was birthed in us in that season. I mean, physically, I welcomed my daughter. We welcomed our second child in Colorado, but spiritually, I think God planted a lot of seeds that it may not have been a tangible adventure of being out in the woods, but spiritually, we were in the woods, and we grew so much, and I'm glad we said yes to it because it opened the door and led to so many other things.   Dan Mathews: (10:38 - 12:31) Yeah, I feel like a lot of our adventures, some are traditional. I mean, a big adventure for me was leaving home. I mean, I moved straight out of my parents' house to a different state, and that was totally crazy for me.   But then watching Sam, I mean, she moved out to California for a summer, went to a ministry out there. Then I saw her go to Colorado and Nanny for a couple, all summer long, and so I was like watching this, and we were talking, and I realized, like, we're both all in on an adventurous life, and even when we don't have the answers, it's like, is the Lord telling you not to do it? No?   Okay, well, then we'll see what happens, and I thought that was really cool to watch her just like, oh, I'm going to California for a summer, and at first, I was like, please don't. I don't want you to come all the way to California, but then I was like, that's going to be so incredible. Like, you're just leaving everything behind and starting over for a whole summer in a different state, and so that was like the early dating years where we were kind of doing our own adventures, but we were watching and encouraging each other in doing them, and then we started actually going out and camping and floating rivers and hiking up waterfalls, and if you've never camped in the backcountry with someone, I suggest doing it. It's a great metric for if there's someone you want to marry.   Like, if you can figure out canoeing and camping, you're probably going to be okay in marriage. That's good. And so, yeah, we started doing that stuff, and then from there, it was just like one after the next, going to Alaska, camping in grizzly country by ourselves, and it's our first time there.   Like, we've done some pretty wild things, some pretty traditional things, but at the end of the day, all of the adventures are what brought us together.   Laura Dugger: (12:32 - 12:45) Well, and just thinking of the adventure that drew you together, and then also your current platforms on socials and vlogging and preserving all of these pictures, like you said, you've captured all the pictures throughout the time.   Sam Mathews: (12:45 - 12:45) Yes.   Laura Dugger: (12:47 - 12:58) When you look back, do you feel like God had given you little seeds of what was yet to come or what kind of career you would be in someday, or was this totally a shock to both of you?   Sam Mathews: (12:59 - 13:57) You know what? Looking back at pictures or even videos that I took, I could see how it was something that the Lord was birthing in us, and I would say probably me so more than Dan. I think Dan's like, whatever you want to do, I'm along for the ride type of thing.   It probably wasn't his first choice as a career, but now that we're in it, we love it and we're thankful for the blessing it is to our family and the time that we get to spend with the kiddos. But I look back and I started videoing and taking pictures like years before even starting on social media, and then even the first few months in the year of sharing, it was like I didn't know what I was doing, but I still wanted to just share life and encourage people and love on people and inspire people. And yeah, it's crazy to look back on, but I also see the work the Lord was doing to get it all started before we even thought about it and knew that it would be something that we'd be doing.   Dan Mathews: (13:57 - 16:00) Yeah, and I feel like with Sam, she gets promptings from the Lord that she doesn't know what it is. She doesn't know what it means. And early on, I think the very first one, she's like, babe, I just have this feeling like a big change is coming.   And I'm like, anymore? Like, do you have any more information for me? That's not a whole lot to go off of.   And I mean, in the conversation, I was like, okay, we'll see. Then I just forgot about it. And I mean, it was like the next day.   There was an issue at work, just a very immoral thing that they were asking us to do as employees. And I was like, no, I can't be part of this. And I called her right after, and I was like, babe, I think this might be it.   Like I'm going to resign tomorrow. And we talked and prayed, and I only had like a five-minute car ride home. We talked, prayed, got off the phone, and immediately I get a call from my buddy.   And he's like, “Hey, dude, don't know what you're doing for work right now, but I've got a job for you if you want to come work at this place I'm at.” And I was like, “Oh, my gosh.” So then two years later, the same thing happened.   She's like, I feel like a change is coming. Boom, big change. Two years later, I feel like a change is coming.   All of a sudden, we're in a car moving out to Colorado. And it was just like that cycle. And so now when she's like, hey, there's a change coming, I'm like, oh, my gosh.   I got to pack my bags. Something big's happening. I know something major is happening.   And so, I don't know that early on either of us expected us to be where we are today. But we knew that we wanted to prioritize time together. We wanted to prioritize time with our kids and above all of it, time with the Lord.   And if we could get those three in the right order, it didn't really matter where we were. It didn't matter what state we were in. If we were living in a bumper pole camper, an RV, a tiny home, or a regular sized house, we just knew that we had to prioritize those things, and everything was going to work out.   Laura Dugger: (16:01 - 18:03) Truly. And that's the promise from Matthew 6:33, that you're really living that out. And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Burchie family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago. If you visit their dealership today though, you'll find that not everything has changed.   They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity. Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible.   They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple, Welcome to Sam Leman's. Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different. I've known Sam and Stephen and their lives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today.   Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business. Learn more at their website, samlemanchevy.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. You can also call them at 309-467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.    There's a verse that you quoted in your book, and I had never read it before, in the message translation.   So, it's Matthew 25:26 that says, “That's a terrible way to live.” It's criminal to live cautiously like that. So, drawing your wisdom then from the Lord, how does your faith fuel your sense of adventure?   Sam Mathews: (18:04 - 19:50) Yeah, a lot of faith and trust. Several points in our life have been like a crossroads where we feel like we want to almost desire more out of everything to go towards the direction where God is leading us, where we don't know the outcome. We don't know what's ahead.   We don't know what's coming and it's forcing us to trust the Lord, to have faith, even though we're fearful of it. Or we look at another option where it's like, you know what, this is very comfortable. We know the outcome.   We know what's going to be required of us. We know how we're going to get there, how we're going to pay for it. And it was something we didn't desire.   We liked being in a position where we needed the Lord. We're reliant upon Him. And so, you know, we talk often in the book about being comfortable.   And I feel like when you're in a comfortable setting in life, it's safe. There's no risk involved. There's little to no trust in the Lord.   I say that, you know, there's more to the story of that. But that you don't want to be at a place where you don't need God, where you don't need to rely on Him. And so, for us, we just encourage people that if you do find yourself in a comfortable place, to maybe step out of your comfort zone a little bit.   To what's an area where you need to trust the Lord more? Is it finding that new job that you've been waiting for, that you've been hoping for? Is it moving to the state that's closer by your family or closer by your friends that you really desire but you're scared too?   To not just be comfortable and stay for the sake of not being fearful or not, like knowing what's next, but instead step out, trust the Lord, you know, as long as you have peace and as long as you feel that yes from Him. And just lay fear aside and move forward with the Lord.   Dan Mathews: (19:50 - 21:54) Yeah, with every big decision that we make, we're led by peace. And we've said it for years. If either one of us don't have peace about it, we're not doing it.   But when there are multiple doors open, we say we're going to choose the most adventurous one. If we don't feel a specific direction from the Lord, let's just pick the most adventurous one. And it's kind of become common practice for us to not have really many of the details planned out on a major decision on a trip.   And people are like, do you have any idea of what you're going to do when you move there? Or how long you're going to be traveling the country in an RV? And we're like, nope, we'll figure it out.   I joke with my buddies all the time because they're like, “I mean, how do you know everything's going to be okay? How do you know this?” I go, well, between me and God, we've got everything figured out.   And they're like, “Oh, okay, I get it.” I'm like, “well, the Lord has everything figured out, but I can throw myself in that team, you know?” And I feel like it's been an encouragement to some of our friends as they watch it.   And they're like, whoa, you guys did it. I'll talk about it for years. And even when we moved out to Colorado, in our minds, we were going to move out there.   All of our friend group was like, one person needs to move. And then everybody else is going to slowly follow out. Well, we end up moving out there.   And I'm like shooting my buddies messages like, “All right, when are you coming out? And one by one, it was like, “No, I don't think we're coming.”   No, it's not going to be for at least five years. It's going to be, you know, maybe when the kids graduate, all of these different responses. And I'm like, man, that was one of the biggest things that we missed when we were out there.   But we knew that moving to Colorado, taking a pay cut, paying more in rent, like all of those things were a stepping stone to get us to where we were today, to trusting the Lord and starting our first business together, trusting the Lord with our finances, with our time. And really putting us in a position where we were fully dependent on him for our survival.   Sam Mathews: (21:54 - 22:40) And so even if something doesn't work out, we mentioned a couple of stories in the book where we may have moved forward without peace, and it did not end well. But the Lord always brings it around and teaches us something from it or a situation where we felt the peace to move to Colorado, but we were only there for two years. It was hard on us financially.   We got into debt. We had no friends, no family out there. It was a hard season.   We still gained from it. So instead of looking at something as a complete loss, we still look to find the good. You know, what did the Lord birth in us?   You know, like Dean said, spiritually, we grew together. Financially, we started a business. Like so much good came from it that even though it maybe on paper or to others, it didn't make sense.   It was still good. And something that the Lord, yeah, started for us.   Laura Dugger: (22:41 - 23:05) And you've learned those lessons and now you get to share them with others. Even super practical with this one. Our family has never done the RV thing before, but even just dipping our toes in and trying a vacation that way.   What tips do you have for families, maybe who aren't traveling around, living out of their RV, but vacationing with one, what are some of your best tips?   Sam Mathews: (23:05 - 24:27) I just saw a video of someone sharing the other day where they took their family of, let's see, four, six total on an RV for the first time. And I was like, oh no, because the first warning I give to everyone is you have to drain your poop through the hose. If you're out on that, RV life is not for you.   RV vacation is not for you. Do you have to get down and dirty and take care of a few things? There's a lot more maintenance that comes with RV vacationing or RV life.   And I usually have the dirty work for Dan to do and I'm inside cooking, cleaning. But an RV has all your basic needs. You can still go to the bathroom, you can still shower, there's a toilet, there's a bed.   It's just on a lot smaller scale. And if you're not good with being in close proximity with all your children or your spouse, then you may just need a little bit of a bigger space to stay in. But it's fun because you get to navigate it together and you get to learn just a new way of life or new way of traveling.   And yeah, the maintenance of the restroom, you have to have water hookups, or you need solar for electric or you have to be hooked up to electric. The great part is you can go anywhere, and you can get right up close to some great adventures. Our favorite spot to park an RV is the rim of the Badlands.   It's so pretty. Is it the North Rim?   Dan Mathews: (24:28 - 24:28) Yeah.   Sam Mathews: (24:28 - 24:54) It's gorgeous. You wake up to the sun rising over it and it's the most peaceful thing to be right there next to it. And you can't do that with a cabin in the woods.   But the benefit to a cabin in the woods is that's its own adventure. And so just do a little bit of research on the maintenance required for setting up, tearing down the RV in order to get on the road and to like park it and set up.   Dan Mathews: (24:55 - 26:44) I like how you weave some of the worst parts about our RV life in there. But I will say being on the road, traveling and like just kind of deciding on the way is one of the greatest things ever. I did not, like we definitely had a plan.   It was like, “Hey, we're gonna stop one time.” Growing up, we've got five kids. So, it was like, we're stopping one time to go to the bathroom.   If you have to go, you're just gonna have to hold it type of thing. We were fairly structured in the traveling to a place. But being in an RV, it really opens up so much to where you can on the way be like, oh, I just saw a billboard.   I wonder what that is. Look it up. How far away is it?   Hey, what if we take a 45-minute detour and go check this out? Like we found places in the middle of Kansas that 1% of the population knows about. We camped.   There's spots that you can camp on the rim of the Grand Canyon. Like no guardrail, back your vehicle right up, walk out the door, sit there, have coffee or whatever in the morning. And that was like our favorite part about it.   There were nights that we would drive until like one in the morning. And we might be sleeping in a truck stop. But we were on the way to Glacier National Park or to the Oregon coast or wherever.   And so, I feel like ditching the schedule and just kind of figuring it out as you go is one of the most freeing things on a vacation. And the other nice part about it is if you find a place that you absolutely love and you're like, we want to spend four days here, do it. You don't have a new reservation somewhere else that you have to get to.   You can just go wherever the wind blows, have fun with the family. And yeah, I think everybody needs to do it at least one time.   Laura Dugger: (26:44 - 27:02) Oh yeah, for sure. What a great challenge to step outside our comfort zone like you said. Well, one other amazing adventure that you've embarked on together is becoming a surrogate twice, I believe.   Will you tell us a little bit more about that process and that experience?   Sam Mathews: (27:03 - 31:10) Yeah, definitely. So, in 2018, we had our daughter and she was a little bit more work than our first. So, our first was super easy.   Ate well, slept well, like barely cried. And our daughter, maybe it was just her being a girl. A little bit more needy and required some extra grace and some more prayer for patience on my part.   But at that point, I was like, yeah, I think I'm done. Having children of our own and parenting our own children because even raising two kids is going to be a task. But I didn't feel like I was done carrying children.   And I'm like, I still want to have babies, but I don't want to have more to parent. How do I do that? But I felt like the Lord just laid surrogacy in my heart.   And I started thinking about it, praying about it, researching it. And I brought it up to Dan like, hey, what would you think about me doing this? And I had to educate him a little bit on like what being a surrogate was.   As a gestational surrogate, I wasn't carrying an embryo with an egg that was mine. So, I'm not biologically related to the baby. And after some prayer, we both felt at peace about it.   And so, we walked through that door and started the process of meeting a couple or going through an agency to start a journey. And yeah, we've done two now. So, in 2022, I delivered a baby boy for a couple.   And then in 2024, so just last year, I've just actually in a few days, I'm going to hit my year mark of my second belly bud being one and a little girl for a couple. And it was like the most, one of the greatest adventures I've been on. And I've gained so much from it.   And it's so rewarding to see someone who desires to be a parent, to be a mom, but physically can't. To see them walk that road and just step into the role that like watching her become a mom is like, you can tell that's what she was meant to be. That's what the Lord had for her.   And it's so fun seeing the joy of their family and watching her grow up and like being a part of her life. That, yeah, like we just encourage other people, if you're able to do something like that, or no matter what it is, it's not just surrogacy, but if God's calling you to something that may require a lot more from you or something that is not normal, it's not traditional, you don't see it a lot, like just step out and do it. And yeah, it's been fun.   It definitely grouped Dan and I closer together. Spiritually, he was there for me in times of emotional hardship. Pregnancy in itself is hard, but to do it multiple times, you know, this is my fifth pregnancy now.   There's a lot of roles that he takes on to care for the kids more, to care for me more. And we've grown closer and just his love for me, seeing it that even though it's not our baby, like he's still caring for me and taking care of me as if it was. And the Lord, I've had to rely on the Lord so many times because pregnancy and birthing in itself is a miracle.   To go through moments of transfer, like the embryo doesn't always take the first time on a transfer or your levels are off or maybe one of the ultrasounds is, you know, something doesn't look good on it. We're constantly relying on the Lord and it gives us an opportunity to share with intended parents, you know, someone who didn't have hope, didn't have anything to look forward to for parenting their own children, to just like be an encouragement to them spiritually and then share these journeys with others publicly has been a great way just to share our faith and to share how going through a surrogacy journey caused us to rely on the Lord and, you know, point everything back to Christ and, you know, God being just very pro-life and we're excited to bring this life into the world.   And so, yeah, definitely a big adventure to embark on to bring two babies into the world that aren't ours, but one of like the greatest things I've ever done. It's awesome.   Laura Dugger: (31:11 - 31:25) It's a beautiful sacrifice and I'm sure others are also wondering at that moment when you meet the baby that you've been carrying, how did you handle those emotions of sharing the baby?   Sam Mathews: (31:25 - 33:42) Yes. Yeah, definitely. So, when you go into surrogacy, you know, from the beginning that it's not your child, especially as a gestational carrier, not related to it.   Throughout the pregnancy, all these milestones that you hit, you're excited for it, but you're excited for it for the parents. So, finding out, you know, there's a heartbeat and seeing the baby for the first time on ultrasound, you're excited for them. Finding out the gender, you're excited for them.   You know, delivering the baby, you're excited for them that you do a lot of mental prep, but there's also like a lot of research that shows to like plan something after delivery for your family to do, something for you to do with your kids so that when you do leave the hospital, you don't think about what you don't have anymore. You think about what you do have at your house with your family. And so, it may seem hard.   I think a lot of times people compare it to adoption where the birth mom is literally giving up her child to somebody else and the hardship that that would cause on her as a surrogate. And I can only speak for myself because I'm sure there are times where it is hard for a surrogate. But for me, it wasn't because I did a lot of mental preparing, emotionally preparing that I knowing that this child wasn't mine going into it.   I knew that at the end of it, I would deliver the baby and the baby would be taken from me and I'm not raising this child. And a lot of times you don't even touch a baby until like maybe you're discharged to see the baby before you leave. So, it's not like I'm delivering the baby.   The baby's being given to me and I'm holding and I'm bonding with it. And then it's being taken away. It's no, this is from the moment it comes out of the womb.   It is their baby and it's in their care. And again, seeing their face, their joy, the moment where like they're seeing their child for the first time is so rewarding. And that's something that I would never want to take from them.   It was never my role to be this baby's mother. It was to just carry their baby and to bring their baby into the world. And so, it's not as hard as you think, thankfully.   I mean, I wouldn't have done it a second time for sure if it was. And we're praying about a third one. But it's so rewarding.   And yeah, you know from the beginning that it's not yours. So, it's easy to, in a sense, pass the baby off.   Laura Dugger: (33:43 - 34:56) Well, that's a story that really encapsulates stewardship. I think that's a great example.    Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights?   Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy.    For both of you, your lives are just fascinating mostly because you're living this life of faith and sacrifice. So, it's compelling to get to hear how you're actually doing that. But then I love how you call out that you don't recommend people go to the other extreme and become reckless and chase adventure. You discern between choosing adventure and chasing adventure.   So, I'm wondering if you can give us any of your definitions or parameters around what choosing adventure does and does not look like for you.   Dan Mathews: (34:57 - 38:00) Yeah, I think that choosing adventure for us is looking at opportunities where we can spend as a family, where we can get outside of our comfort zones and just really put it in the Lord's hands. Have fun along the way, you know, whether it's ziplining or jumping off a cliff, like a lot of people think adventure has to be this grand thing and super dangerous. And for us, it isn't really.   Like there's been a couple of times where we've been like, this got crazy quickly. Maybe we could have planned it out a little bit better. But at the end of the day, it all worked out.   And so, when we talk about people choosing instead of chasing or not being reckless, it's all about like, do something new, do something fun, do something that puts you outside of your comfort zone, but isn't going to put you in a bad position. I'm not the guy that's like, you know what? Never swam across Lake Michigan.   I'm going to give it a go, see how it happens, and see what happens. If that's the case, it's like maybe start out with a triathlon and see what you're going to do and work your way up. And so, I don't ever want anyone to take the book or take the things that we say or the adventures that we've had in life and think I'm going to do something absolutely crazy that doesn't make sense.   That's not logical. That's not safe. Like, that's not what this is about.   It's about just getting outside of your comfort zone. And the more you're outside of it, the more comfortable you become with being uncomfortable. And I tell people, like on some of my backcountry hunts, I want to be comfortable in suffering.   Like when I'm really, really struggling physically to climb up a mountain with a 70-pound pack on my back, I want to be like, I know I'm making it out of this. It's not fun in the moment. Like it hurts.   My legs are burning. My back hurts. I feel like I need a break, but I'm going to keep pushing through.   And when I look back on that, I'm going to go, that was brutal and awesome. And I loved every second of it. And I feel like that's how, how we view our trips, our road trips.   I mean, driving, what was it? Thirty something thousand miles in a couple months and visiting dozens and dozens of states. It was like, there were times where it was like, I don't want to be on the road anymore.   The wind is literally about to tip the RV over. I'm almost taking out construction cones or running into things because I had never driven an RV before. And the very first place we go is Wisconsin.   And we drive right past Chicago and there's like construction for a hundred miles. And so it's like all of those things, they were fun. Yeah, they were scary in the moment we got through, we were never in any real danger.   And so, yeah, I feel like it's a stair step when it comes to adventure. I didn't start out just wandering around Alaska by myself. It started with going down to Arkansas, being five miles away from the vehicle and then kind of built from there.   Sam Mathews: (38:00 - 39:50) Yeah, to not be reckless, like to, you know, we talked about this earlier to move forward when you have peace. And just because you have peace with it, someone else may not understand it. But with peace, like there's wisdom too.   You don't want to move forward with a lack of peace and not using wisdom in a decision because yeah, that will get you in trouble and that will cause hardship and pain later down the road. But if you have peace about something and there is that open door and you feel the release from the Lord to go on this adventure, then do it. And even though if it doesn't work out, you know, God will still work everything out.   But yeah, like Dan said, when you, the more you do things that are outside your comfort zone or that, you know, even others may not agree with, but you feel at peace with and you're moving forward, the easier it becomes to do those. And the more you would trust the Lord. And like you said, again, it doesn't have to be some grand adventure.   We encourage people that if they're new to choosing adventure and they're new to stepping outside their comfort zone, try like a new restaurant one day, go to like a new, I was thinking the other day, we live in Missouri and we always travel outside of Missouri for adventure. I'm like, we need to do a six-month adventure just within Missouri. Like we drove two hours South and through Missouri to go to Georgia last week.   And we were driving down this hill on one of the roads. I'm like, this looks like, it looked like Georgia already, or it looked like Colorado, the hillside and the trees and the fog, I'm like, this is beautiful. And I look down, I'm like, oh, we're still in Missouri.   So, there's so much to adventure and to explore in your own backyard or down your street that it doesn't have to be something crazy wild. We're not saying go, you know, jump out of a plane and skydive or something, but just start small, start where you have peace and where you feel the Lord's leading.   Laura Dugger: (39:52 - 40:26) That's great. I love having a handful of practical things. I think of my brother, Drew and his wife, Amanda, when their kids were really little, they just drew a two hour radius to see what places would be fun to go invest and explore.   Or for us, I would say one of our most recent adventures, we didn't know what it would look like on the other side, but it's become one of our favorite things in life and probably our best decision in parenting for us as we started homeschooling our kids last year. And it has been a wild adventure.   Sam Mathews: (40:26 - 40:27) That's an adventure.   Laura Dugger: (40:28 - 40:36) So, any other tips to get people started? Those are even trying the new restaurant. Yeah.   Anything else like that that you would say?   Dan Mathews: (40:37 - 42:13) The nice thing is that we all have this supercomputer in our hand or in our pocket all the time. And there are so many lists of like the top 10 places to see, places to eat. There's books that are just like places to canoe before you dive, places to hike before you dive, and they have all of this stuff listed out.   And so, it's not that you have to be a pioneer and find a new place that nobody's ever been before. Look at the research that people have done before you and look at lists, get on Pinterest or any social media platform and try to just figure out what are practical things that you can do. And then you can also say, how difficult is this going to be for me?   Do I really need to jump that far into it right now? Or should I just go to a local park that might have a cool cave that I can explore? Or maybe there's a creek near the house and like, what if we just go down there and see if we can find fish or crawdads or try to skip rocks?   My kids, that is one of their favorite things. I'm like, I love doing it as a kid. I didn't realize how exciting just the act of watching a rock skip on the water would be for kids.   And so there's, yeah, there's a million different resources online for things that you can practically do close to home. And it might, for some people, just be trying that DIY project instead of calling a carpenter to put yourself up, you know, or a handyman. Like, give it a try.   The worst that's going to happen, you have a hole in your wall. Now you watch a video on how to patch it.   Laura Dugger: (42:14 - 42:37) That's so good. And I'm seeing a theme. A lot of these are getting outdoors and nature.   That's always an adventure. But then I'm even thinking simple things in conversation, trying out a new question, even with a loved one. Or you said at the beginning that you love hospitality.   So inviting somebody new into your home. I think any of that novelty is just really good for us. Yeah, definitely.   Dan Mathews: (42:38 - 44:32) Yeah, I think even making it a point in conversation when somebody asks you how your day is, instead of just saying good and continuing on, actually stop and talk to them. Because a lot of people, their biggest fear might not be going on a road trip, might not be financial ruin. It might just be opening up and being vulnerable with another person.   And so it could be the person at the office that you've never actually had a conversation with. You know each other. You might wave when you walk by their desk.   But actually talk to them. Get to know them. Tell them about yourself.   And so the book has a lot of those types of things lined out where it's like it might not be physical. It might not be out in nature. It might be within your home.   It might be, I mean, some people need to do this with their kids. Like that might be the scariest thing is talking to your teenager. Like actually having a conversation.   And we're going to sit down and we're going to have a meal together and actually talk as a family. And so, yeah, it looks different for everybody. And that's one thing, because our passion is being outside.   Like Sam wants a houseboat. She wants to buy a houseboat and renovate it and live in it for a certain amount of time. And we've had other people who a bunch of homeschool families bought sailboats and sailed all around the world as they were homeschooling their kids.   And I heard that and I was like, yeah, yeah, we're going to have to do that at some point. But I know for a lot of people, just going outside is a big deal. And so it looks different for everybody.   We do give a lot of nature examples, but there's different ways for every type of person, every level of. What would you even call it? Social.   There's a lot of different levels to the social scale. And so no matter where you are, there's something for you to be a little bit more adventurous.   Laura Dugger: (44:34 - 44:42) OK, so like I said, you've made a compelling argument for getting outside of our comfort zone. Why do you think some of us resist this attractive lifestyle?   Sam Mathews: (44:43 - 46:46) Yeah, I think there's fear in it. There's sadly nowadays, you know, what will other people think of me? What will what if we fail?   What if we lose money? What if we what if I look a certain way that I don't want to appear to others? And that's where you just have to think back to Christ.   Like what is it? What really matters at the end of the day? It's how God views you.   And if you fail, oh, well, what if the Lord like just opens up so many doors and creates an avenue for you to get out? Or what if so much good comes from it that we can't be afraid of failure? Again, move forward cautiously with wisdom and with the Lord's peace and direction.   But in our book, we share one of our biggest adventures was going out to Colorado and renovating a van for five days. And we broke down on the side of the road, something no one wants to do in the desert, in the middle of twice. We did twice.   We broke down in the middle of Kansas and then in Colorado again. And it was we'll be honest, it was not fun. It was one of like the scariest times.   But looking back, like we're so thankful we did because so much good came from it. Like we met some amazing people who helped us along the way. And it's now one of our favorite stories to tell of encouragement that just because you say yes to adventure and just because something bad happens, it's not all a waste.   And I think, yeah, that fear just keeps people from being able to move forward and being like, you know what? Like I'm comfortable right here in my house, my kids in public school, not going anywhere because I know where my money's coming. I know like what's happening tomorrow.   I know how people are going to respond. And I'm just going to like stay here. Not that that's a bad thing, because the Lord needs people in every season in every situation.   But if he's prompting you to step out and to try something new, like don't be afraid of what's required from you or what could happen. You never know like where it could lead.   Dan Mathews: (46:47 - 48:10) Yeah, I think a lot of it is those few things, fear, pride, or just you believing that God isn't big enough or doesn't care about your situation. And unfortunately, a lot of people are there where I really want to try this, but like what if things go wrong? And for us, it's like when things go wrong, that's where the Lord provides.   That's where the Lord directs. That's where he leads. That's where his word can be the lamp to your feet and a light to your path.   When you're trying to do it all on your own and you're staying in this safety net of comfort, nothing amazing happens in that place. And so, we've seen it time and time again, the Lord's provision, the Lord's provision in our lives and not only the provision financially, but actually like setting us free from constraints like social constraints of like you have to work nine to five. We heard that over and over and over.   And I'm like, well, the nice thing is Sam and I are both hard workers and super driven, and I'm sure we could get jobs again. Yeah, so like worst case scenario, we run completely out of money and we go back to go back to work. And I'm like, what does failure actually look like?   And I try to get people to break it down for me. People who are like, I'm glad that worked for you, but that couldn't work for us. And I go, why?   Sam Mathews: (48:10 - 48:10) Yeah.   Dan Mathews: (48:11 - 48:20) Like, why couldn't it work for you? And they're like, well, I like what happens if it doesn't work out? And I'm like, let's expand on that as far out as we can think.   Sam Mathews: (48:20 - 48:21) Even the worst.   Dan Mathews: (48:21 - 48:24) Like, does that work? Like, are you going to die? No.   Sam Mathews: (48:24 - 48:24) Yeah.   Dan Mathews: (48:24 - 49:02) Like, no, you'll probably just come back home if it doesn't work out, you know? And so, trying to trying to show people that because the fear of the unknown is pretty significant to people. Something completely new to them that they've never tried it's really challenging to get people to take that first step.   But once they do, the second step is easier. The third step is easier. And pretty soon you're jumping and sprinting and you're like, whoa, this whole life is out here that I didn't even know existed.   So yeah, I definitely think it's those three, though.   Laura Dugger: (49:03 - 50:59) That's good. And it makes me think that typically the way that we grow our faith is action. We put our faith into action and God gives us with more faith when we're faithful with the little faith that we have.   And it also makes me think back, I believe it was episode 82, 82. Traveling With Your Family With Teacher, Wife, and Mother to 4,, with the guest, Katie Mueller. I'm going to link to it. I think you guys would love it where she parallels what God called people to do throughout the Bible with travel, what that looks like today, practical, fun things.   But Sam, something that you said reminded me of this when you're like, “Well, if nothing else, it's going to be a great story.” And she referred to that, like when things went wrong growing up on their travels, they laughed so hard about those memories. And in their family, they tragically lost their dad very unexpectedly.   Actually, her mom, I'll link to Joyce Hodel's episode as well. She shares that story. But their family has all of these stories and all of these memories from choosing adventure.   So that makes me start to think of marriage and family. And as we put that together with adventure, you guys always make adventure feel approachable, even in parenting. And I'm thinking on page 15, you wrote that as a kid, anytime you get to drive cross country, stay at a hotel or eat at a restaurant, it's an adventure for no reason other than it's a break from the norm, right?   And you know what? That's the whole point. Choosing adventure is about stepping out of your comfort zone and trying something new.   There's no right or wrong way to do it. So, with that in mind, Dan and Sam, how can we begin to enjoy this adventurous life in marriage and in family?   Sam Mathews: (51:00 - 51:49) Yeah. Bringing your kids along is such a fun, it requires a little bit more packing, but such a fun aspect to adventure. And going on date nights with your spouse, trying something new, experiencing it together, finding something you enjoy together, but realizing that it can also, there's another level of fun to have your kids along with.   And sometimes we'll drive 30 minutes away and stay at a hotel for a night just because it's a new place to go and the kids love it. And it doesn't have to be expensive. They go putt-putt and that for them is the greatest thing.   If you end it with ice cream, it's even better than the cherry on top, that it's just something fun for them. But yeah, realizing that it can be a family thing, but it could just be you as a couple too. But yeah.   Dan Mathews: (51:50 - 54:56) Well, and for kids, there's so much adventure to be had right at home or right in your backyard. I bought, I went to Walmart one day and I bought two extra large king-size sheets just so that we could do forts. I was like, I'm gonna put these in the closet and now I've got like the alligator clips and so I can clip them to different things.   And when it's a rainy day and the kids are bored and we're stuck inside, it's just a break from the norm. And then they'll be like, mom, dad, come see what we did. And they might build like a little shop where they sell us stuff inside of their fort.   Or they might make beds for us and for the stuffed animals and for our dog and all of these different things. And so, breaking out of the norm is just what adventure is. Like if they're not used to that, if they're not used to that time together, like some days it's, we're gonna go jump on the trampoline and they're like, wait, both of you at once?   Normally one of us is getting stuff done and the other one's hanging out with them. And when all of a sudden it's like both of us unexpectedly are walking to the trampoline, they're like, oh, family trampoline jump. If you need really good ideas for adventure and you're a parent, just watch Bluey.   If you haven't seen Bluey, that dad is awesome. And like we used to do the claw game. I would put all of their stuffed animals in my lap.   My thumb was the joystick and then my other hand was the claw and they had to move it and I would pick up the stuffed animals. And to them, it was the greatest thing they'd ever done. And we saw it on a cartoon.   And so, incorporating family into it, I feel like it's just, it's really easy. And aside from excuses, there's no reason not to get the kids involved in it. Also, there's a million books about getting kids outside.   And so, like checklists that they can do. Every national park, if for those that don't know or haven't visited national parks, I didn't know this because we didn't go to any national parks growing up, but your kids can become a junior ranger. They get these booklets and they get badges of the individual parks and they have to learn about nature and about the animals that are there and about the history.   And so that became a thing for the kids. Every place we went, it was like, “Oh, I need a junior ranger badge.” And I mean, they had wooden badges just lining their chest.   Like they were some war hero and they absolutely loved it. And so there's things like that locally in nature parks and stuff. But doing it together.   I mean, that's what it's all about. For me, I watched the guys on TV and I'm like, that guy just went to New Zealand by himself or like watching alone. I'm like, I don't want to do that.   It would be pretty crazy, I feel like. I think everybody needs some type of alone time here and there. But for me, I want to share this stuff with my wife, with my kids, with my buddies.   And so, yeah, that's what it's all about.   Sam Mathews: (54:56 - 55:07) Yeah, like you said, have those stories to tell with your family, of your family members. That way, if something does happen and they pass, you have so much to look back on of the memories you're able to share together.   Laura Dugger: (55:09 - 55:15) Absolutely. And to bring those up and share them with our kids while we are together. They love hearing stories about when they were little.   Sam Mathews: (55:16 - 55:16) Oh, yeah.   Laura Dugger: (55:17 - 55:29) And you guys have taken it a step further where you document it then and preserve. So if we want continued inspiration after this conversation, where can we go to follow you two and your adventures?   Sam Mathews: (55:30 - 56:08) Yes, we do. Our kids love watching our travels and stuff. We share along for videos and stuff on YouTube, Facebook.   But we share our life on every platform. We are Dan and Sam. Pinterest, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Facebook.   And then Dan has his hunting content over at the Nomadic Outdoorsman. And yeah, we share day-to-day life, what that looks like, lifestyle. But then our travels, our adventures, mom life, welcoming a new baby, our surrogacy journeys, whatever life looks like at that time and how we're enjoying it, what God's teaching us, where we're going.   And we laugh along the way, the encouragement and try to inspire you to live an adventurous, fun-filled life.   Laura Dugger: (56:09 - 56:28) Love it. We'll add links to all of those things in the show notes for today's episode. And you two may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Sam Mathews: (56:31 - 57:15) Ooh, practical knowledge. Let's see. I would say with motherhood, don't think that, I don't know if this would be considered savvy sauce, but it's just a good reminder to myself that as a mom, you may think you're alone in something, you're going through it, and it's just you, but you're not.   You are with a community of people who are feeling the same thing that you're walking through, going through the same thing, and just reminding yourself you're not alone because I think it makes the journey a lot easier to know that there's other people walking through the same season, the same hardship, the same joy, the same trials as you. And it makes life a little bit easier when you feel less alone.   Dan Mathews: (57:16 - 58:26) I think for me, it would be that your kids are going to be an extreme version of what you are. So, if you're showing fear and decisions, if you're hesitant, if you're not trusting the Lord, that's gonna be compounded in their lives. And they're just a more magnified mirror image of what their parents are.   And so, we try to, in everything that we do, go, is this something that's gonna set up our kids for success? And it's not like, oh, we have to have money in the bank for them, you know, for a retirement fund one day or a college fund. I'm talking like everyday lessons.   If I put my phone screen in front of my kids, they're gonna do that more and more and more. If I prioritize things that aren't meant to be prioritized over my wife, they're gonna see that. And so, we try to be very, very clear about what our priorities are.   We try to live intentionally, showing them the right way to do things and being an example to them. And so, yeah, that'd be my savvy sauce.   Laura Dugger: (58:27 - 58:49) I love it. You two are so full of integrity and you definitely shine the love and the light of Jesus brightly by the way that you live. So, I know I'm leaving this conversation feeling very inspired to choose adventure.   And I just wanna say thank you for being my guest today.   Sam Mathews: Thank you so much for having us. It was a joy.   Dan Mathews: (58:49 - 58:50) It was a blast.   Laura Dugger:  (58:52 - 1:02:06) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents

This week Special Guest Minister Shaleem Manno talks about the Love of the Father in our lives!   You can now see on our Youtube Channel by following this link: Our Father Our Love (Our Father Pt. 4)   Important Scriptures (NLT version unless stated otherwise):   Matthew 5:43-48 (NIV) John 15:13 (NIV) John 13:34-35 (NIV) 1 John 4:19 (NIV) James 1:2-4 (NIV) Romans 12:2 (NIV)

265. Servant Leadership, Mentoring, and Actionable Steps with Kathryn Spitznagle   2 Timothy 2:2 (NIV) "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."   **Transcription Below**   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are some servant leadership principles you've learned over the years? How did you learn forgiveness is part of leadership? Will you elaborate on a leadership tool mentioned in your book, which is called the "Hero Page?"   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Kathryn Spitznagle is the author of "Rock Star Millennials--Developing the Next Generation of Leaders," and the companion workbook, "Rock Star Millennials Toolkit." She is a professional coach and the founder of Mentoring Women Millennials, LLC. She has 30+ years of mentoring, coaching and leadership development in corporate, small business and not-for-profit environments as well as 10+ years of mentoring cancer survivors and their families throughout their journey. Her mission is to foster the personal and professional development of leaders... for the life they lead today...and the one they want tomorrow.   Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned in Episode: Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson Biblical Principles as Wise Business Practices with Steve Robinson   Additional Previous Episodes on Business and Leadership on The Savvy Sauce: The Inside Scoop on Chick-fil-A with Mark Dugger How to Apply Successful Business Principles to Your Life with Dee Ann Turner Leadership Principles and Practices with Former NFL Player, J Leman How to Lead When You're Not in Charge with Author and Pastor of North Point Community Church, Clay Scroggins Understanding the Myers-Briggs Personality Type Indicator to Improve Your Marriage, Family, and Work Relationships  Thriving at Work, Home, and Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Business Owner, Crystal Paine Energy to Spark Success in Your Business with Best-Selling Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Christy Wright How 2 questions can grow your business and change your life with author, pastor, and podcaster, Jeff Henderson Radical Business and Radical Parenting with Gary & Marla Ringger, Founders of Lifesong for Orphans Stewardship as the Daughter of Chick-fil-A Founders with Trudy Cathy White Living Intentionally with Shunta Grant Generational Differences in the Workplace with Haydn Shaw Pursuing Your God-Given Dream with Francie Hinrichsen Leadership Training: Five Key Elements for Creating Customer Loyalty in Your Business with Elizabeth Dixon  Uncover Your Purpose with Clarity with Isimemen Aladejobi Unlocking Meaning and Purpose in Your Life and Overcoming Burnout with Dale Wilsher Leading Your Family, Marriage, and Self with Justin Maust Divine Productivity with Matt Perman 223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence Patreon 27 Re-Release: Purposeful and Practical with Emily Thomas Special Patreon Re-Release: Creativity and Career While Raising a Family with Jean Stoffer   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger:  (0:12 - 1:20) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage.    Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy.    Kathryn Spitznagle is my enchanting guest for today, and her resume is quite impressive, but what actually is even more of a standout is her humble heart.   So, if you are one who learns from stories and encouragement, and you also appreciate actionable, practical tools, this conversation is definitely for you. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kathryn.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:21 - 1:24) Oh, thank you, Laura. Appreciate you having me.   Laura Dugger:  (1:24 - 1:32) Well, I'd love for you just to start us off by giving us a snapshot of your background and also your current phase of life.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:33 - 6:47) Okay, lots of seasons. Yeah, learned, you know, you learn something from all of them. So, I started out in journalism.   I've kind of come back to my roots interviewing folks. I was a sports writer, so I grew up in a family with four brothers, so when I went to college, I knew sports, and at the time, that was unusual to have a female sports So I did that, and then went into publishing after I got my journalism degree, and since I'd been a sports writer, they put me in the men's division of this magazine publishing company. So, I started out learning, I started out working for a helicopter magazine, and I was an editor, and the only one that did know how to fly, and so they sent me to flight school in order to be a better editor and, you know, learn how to communicate with our readers.   And again, then because I'd done that and was in the men's division, they moved me then to shooting times, which was hunting and sports shooting. So, then I learned how to shoot guns and reload in that whole industry. From there, I went to fashion.   So, I went to the women's division, and at first they said, you know, are you sure you want to do this? And I said, well, this will be the first job you've put me on that won't kill me. You know, I've learned how to fly planes and shoot guns.   You know, let me have a shot at that Singer sewing machine. And I was a terrible seamstress. And they said, really, what we want you to do in fashion is to create a presence in New York, in Manhattan.   And so, the publisher was in Peoria, Illinois, but they wanted a presence in Manhattan. And so that's what I did for three years, worked remotely back and forth, and created that presence, joined the Fashion Group International. They hired three consultants to fix me up.   And so, I laugh if you've ever seen the movie Miss Congeniality, that was me. So, you know, learned all about the fashion industry and built those relationships with our advertisers. And also, then we went into television and did a lifetime, the TV show, weekly TV show on Lifetime called Make It Fashion.   And we're trying to blend that the home sewing industry with the fashion industry. So, if you saw this on the runway, in Milan, or in New York, or in Paris, this is how you can make it yourself, be your own designer kind of thing. So that was my journalism start, then moved to St. Louis, got married, had babies, and went into corporate communications, worked for Purina in St. Louis, where I learned so much about leadership, moved back to Peoria, and I went to work for Caterpillar. And when I retired from Caterpillar, then I started this business, Mentoring Women Millennials. And I have such a heart for this generation. I think they're so bright and smart and creative and entrepreneurial, and they get a bad rap.   And so, I wanted to have a platform to lift them up, and also to give them tools. So, the first year I wrote a book, Rockstar Millennials, Developing the Next Generation of Leaders. And what I found, there were so many really sharp, bright millennials that had never had good leaders.   They never had a mentor. They didn't have the tools. Many of them were entrepreneurs.   They didn't intend to lead people. They had a craft. They started a business, and it grew.   And they're like, now I got people. What do I do with people? And as I was out speaking about my business, I found the audience very consistently had two types of attendees.   One was what I would call a seasoned leader, who said, for helping the millennials, thank you. Something along that line. And then I would have a young person stand up and say, “Do you have a book”?   And after that happened several times, okay, Lord, I got this. Yeah, write a book. And I remember saying, “That's a good idea, God, but I don't have time.”   And so if you want to know why COVID happened, it was me. Because the good Lord said, hey, it's February of 2020. It looks like you have time right now.   And so I hired an editor. We wrote a book in four months and published it at the end of the year. And in 2021, then started the podcast.   Laura Dugger:  (6:48 - 7:04) Well, that's an incredible resume and such a whirlwind to getting here today. But you mentioned some leadership principles, especially at Purina. So, Kathryn, what are some of those servant leadership principles that you've learned and acquired over the years?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (7:04 - 9:34) Over the years, yeah. Just some amazing leaders at Purina. Their culture was very much a servant leadership culture.   Purina as a company was created in the 1950s by an independently wealthy gentleman, William H. Danforth. And he created the Youth Foundation in St. Louis. And he found once he got kids out of gangs and out of jail and off drugs, nobody would hire them. So, he created a company to hire those kids, Purina. And so, they, yes, told us that, you know, the first day he said, you know, this is never confused what we make with why we're here.   We were here, we were created to develop people for life. What we make will change. But the reason we're here will not.   And Danforth also wrote a book called I Dare You. I Dare You to be the best you can be and help someone else do the same. And so that very first day we were told the story of the genesis of Purina, we were given that book, I Dare You.   And when we left orientation, we met, they had 360-degree mentoring. And they said, “This is how we create this culture. And we continue this for generations through mentoring.”   So, when you leave orientation, you're going to meet your leader mentor, your peer mentor, and in 90 days, you'll be mentoring. Everyone at Purina mentors, and we all learn from each other constantly. So that was the platform.   And that was the culture. And when you think about feeling cherished, and valued, that's how they did it. Because if you're going to mentor someone, and someone's going to mentor you, you have value.   And the people you're working with have value. And so that creating a cherished culture was their legacy. And then it's something that I took on to Caterpillar.   And I continue now, in my keynote speaking, that's one of the most popular is how to create a cherished culture in the boardroom, in the living room, and in the classroom. Hmm.   Laura Dugger:  (9:35 - 9:47) And so, I won't ask for the entire keynote speech then, but is there an overview that you can give us of those things that we could implement that you've learned to implement over time as well?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (9:47 - 11:29) Yes, some of the tools. And, and that was another wonderful thing about Purina that I saw then, and haven't seen it since. You know, it seemed unique to me at the time.   Fast forward a few years, and it was like, yeah, that was very unusual leadership. And one of the things that they valued was, know your people, understand them, know their needs, know their wants. Even at this point, so, you know, I'm talking 30 years ago, I went to work there in 1990.   They were talking about purpose. What's your purpose? Purina had a very specific purpose.   We are a purposeful company. We're here to develop people for life. And, and they even said, I thought this was unique to it at orientation.   They said, and we hire bright, smart people, and we don't expect you to stay here very long. Our job is to send you off better than we found you. And with a positive impression of Purina.   And here's why. When you leave here, you may go to another Fortune 50 company, which I did. You may be in a position to impact a merger or acquisition.   You can buy and sell our stock. And at the very least, when you go to the grocery store, you can buy dog food. And we want it to be Purina.   Laura Dugger:  (11:31 - 11:36) That's incredible. That actually happened then with you taking that forward.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (11:37 - 16:07) And all of those lessons learned. So, when I talk about creating a cherished culture, Purina, one of the things they did very well was to introduce a concept, illustrate it with a story, and then activate it with a tool. So mentoring, they talked about here is the platform on which our company is built, developing people for life.   And they told us that story then about Purina. Then they gave us the book. And then they gave us a mentor that we were meeting with each week.   And they gave us a, what do I want to say, an outline. So, when you meet with your mentor or mentee, here are questions to ask. Here's a way to go about this.   And the number one reason people do mentor is because they don't know how. What's a process? And so how smart?   Purina's like, here. Here's an outline. Here are things to ask.   Here are discussion topics. And here are different tools we're going to give you as you progress in leadership. And they're designed for you then to pass on.   And so those are some of the tools when I talk about creating a cherished culture. One of the tools is here are questions to ask. Here's how to have that dialogue.   Here are discussion topics. When you're developing a relationship with this person, ask about their life outside of work. Ask about their family and friends and whatever, as much as they'd like to share.   Not everyone does. That's okay too. Ask about their best day at work.   What's a bad day at work? What's their best boss like? How do they like to be recognized?   What's their purpose? One of the most insightful questions they asked at Purina was, why do you want to succeed? And why do you want this company to succeed?   And those two questions give insight to someone's purpose. And so, then if you frame discussions around their purpose and their values, it is exponentially more meaningful to them. So, when I talk about how do you lead millennials and how is it different?   Those are a couple of the things. Understand their purpose. Understand their life. Their values outside of work, and frame things within their purpose.   Here's an example and or their values. If someone says, my values are hard work and transparency. I want people to be honest. Those are a couple of my values.    Okay. So, if I were leading that person and I saw them being transparent with someone else, being open and honest, I would recognize them for that.   Not just recognize them for the work, but recognize them for their value, demonstrating their value. I saw you be open and honest with that person. Thank you for that.   If kindness is a value, I saw you. I saw what you did there today to help someone out without being asked. Thank you for that kindness.   That resonates on a whole different level. And if you have to have a tough discussion with that person to say, frame it in those words. I know you value honesty, and I do too.   And so, we need to have an honest conversation. And here's some things that I'm seeing in your behavior, in your leadership, or in your work style that can hold you back. So, let's fix this whole different way to lead.   Laura Dugger:  (16:09 - 16:39) Absolutely. And I love how some of these even one-page practical tools you've included in the back of your book. So, it's a plug and play, but I'm even thinking back to your mentoring relationships where you had this circle of mentors and you were mentoring.   I think it's also helpful to get to hear one another's mistakes. So, are you comfortable sharing any mistakes that you've made along the way that actually even turned out to be beneficial learning opportunities?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (16:40 - 20:32) Absolutely. Loads of them. I've got loads of them.   And one of the women I mentor has said, I think I've advanced my career 10 years by learning from your mistakes. And I love that. And she's like, now I'm going to make plenty of my own, but I'm not going to make yours.   And I said, “Good. That's the point of all this.” One of the big ones I made at Purina.   I think a lot of places I would have been fired, probably should have been. I was working in the marketing group, and we were like an internal marketing. So, we did the new product introduction, point of purchase, point of sale materials, the legal documents that went out, the whole packet that would go out to a distributor, a grocery store.   And EverReady Battery was one of our product lines. So, we had internal clients. And as they had new product introductions, we'd get the materials together.   We had in-house printing, all of the things, graphic design, and that was all under my purview. The letter, there's a letter that went out to distributors that was a legal document and had a number. And I pulled the wrong letter, the wrong number.   And it wasn't discovered until last minute. And we sat down with the client and they're like, oh my gosh, this is the wrong legal letter. And I, you know, I'm the account rep, that was on me.   So, I had to go back, I had to go to Neil Lewis, my boss and say, “Okay, we've got to pull this back before it all goes out, reprint, which is going to be all our expense. We're going to have to have people working off shifts and all that sort of thing to do it quickly. And then reassemble all these Eveready Battery packets and, you know, do as close as we can to meeting their deadline.”   And so basically it's going to eat up our margin and we're going to have more printing expense. We're going to have more labor and we're going to have some unhappy people. And our client's not real happy either.   And that was all me. And Neil said to me, “You know, I learned something today. And he said, until today, I thought you walked on water.”   And he said, “Now I know you're human, just like the rest of us.” And I thought, oh, my word. And he's like, okay, so what happened?   That was a mistake. How are we going to fix it? And I said, “I've already pulled the right letter, getting it reprinted. Here's the, additional time and money. Here's how it's going to impact our margin.” And he said, “You know, can we do it? And can we satisfy the customer and get, if not meet their deadline very close?”   And I said, “We can meet their deadline if we have people work third shift.” And, you know, and he said, “Okay, let's do it. That's the right thing to do.” And, and he said, Kathryn, “I told you what I learned today. What did you learn?”   And I said, “I learned how to be the kind of leader I want to be when someone makes a mistake.”   Laura Dugger:  (20:36 - 21:05) Wow. The humility in that is incredible. And thank you for sharing.   Stories are so memorable. It makes me instantly reminded of two previous episodes. I'll make sure I link in the show notes, both with Jeff Henderson and Steve Robinson, accomplished businessmen, but who were also willing to share stories and how just like you, it actually made them a better, more relatable leader.   And so that's encouraging.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (21:06 - 21:34) And I knew when I got to Caterpillar and, uh, particularly when I was running the Caterpillar visitor center, because that was so new and never been done in Caterpillar. And so, we're going to make some mistakes and we're going to learn, you know, along the way. And there was more than one occasion where I was reminded of Neil Lewis.   And I said, okay, I learned something today. You are human. Just like the rest of us.   Now, how are we going to fix this?   Laura Dugger:  (21:35 - 23:48) And then what did you learn?    Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.    Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life from premarital to parenting to the emptiness phase.   There is an opportunity for you. WinShape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured. Even when it seems things are going smoothly so that they're stronger.   If they do hit a bump along their marital journey, these weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of WinShape retreat perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well fed, well nurtured, and well cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and more.   I've stayed on site at WinShape before and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, to find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org slash S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   You've had so much experience in different areas and as a corporate leader. So what is it that drew you specifically to have a heart for millennials, which we can define as those approximately born between the 1980s and early 2000s?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (23:50 - 28:18) I really started working with them. My last role at Caterpillar, I was a director of global sustainability and it was within public affairs. So, we were leading, Caterpillar was leading a natural infrastructure coalition.   I was working with a lot of different entities, public, private, governmental. We're trying to get language passed into law. That was a big portion of my job.   Another portion of my job was to be out speaking about what Caterpillar was doing in the world of sustainability. And I loved that. What I found was the sustainability groups of Caterpillar employees all around the world, we do a global call quarterly, learning what everybody was doing.   They were all this age group. And when we would do the river cleanup on Saturday, these are the people that showed up with their kids. And when we do tree plantings, these are the people that showed up with their kids.   It's like, okay. And I remember saying to my peers, you know what, this group of employees, these young people are not going to retire with a pension like we are with health care like we do. There's so many things that we have garnered through our career appropriately.   They don't have that. What drives loyalty for them and what engages them with Caterpillar are these things. These things we're doing through the foundation where we're giving back and improving the world and the things we're doing in sustainability, giving back, improving the world.   They are so much more engaged in our company through these things. And so, I kind of knew, I thought, okay, I'm not sure exactly where the Lord is leading, but it's going to be with those people. And that was the thing I knew when I retired that, okay, this is what I want to do.   And then the more I worked, you know, I started the business mentoring women millennials. The more I worked with these young women, the more I saw, yes, there's a need. There's a need here.   And I always, you know, again, people would ask, why? Why are you so connected? And I said, first of all, I saw the value in them.   But secondly, I think I was one. My husband and I laughed that we never really fit in with our generation. And here's why.   We both were out of school and working on our careers when we met. And in our generation, you got married right out of high school, or at the very least right out of college. And so, you know, our families had given up.   They're like, they're never going to get married. They're working. They got this whole career thing going.   And so, when we got married, well, then we didn't have children until we were in our 30s. You know, highly irregular for our generation. We were entrepreneurial.   So, we were looking at franchises in our 20s. And our families were like, just get a job. What is this?   You got to buy something and then you buy something else. And my husband owned a business, his first business in his 30s. We both had side hustles.   Again, friends and family were like, just do one job. What is with you guys? Always got all these things, you know, going.   And then when I took the job in fashion, and I was working in Manhattan and living in Peoria, like, what do you even call that kind of work to call it remote? Working remotely? Yeah.   And so, I think part of my heart for them is I was one. And so, when they talk about some of the struggles and the things that are endearing to them, like, I got you. I felt like that, too.   Laura Dugger:  (28:20 - 28:57) That is incredible. And I think it really does make you the perfect person for that mentor mentee relationship. And I kind of want to camp out on that further, because we've alluded to it.   And some of these tips are in your book, where you highlight those discussion topics that give people the tools. But then if we take it a step further or personalize it, how can all of us as listeners begin a mentoring relationship like the one you've described? And I'm even thinking of the beginning point.   Do you think it's up to the mentor or the mentee to initially reach out?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (28:58 - 33:07) Either one. Yeah, either one can work. When I left Purina, having had this wonderful leadership experience and mentoring environment, I thought, well, this must be what all corporations are like.   No. Doesn't make them bad. They're just different.   So, when I got to Caterpillar that was male, very male dominated, I remember calling my mentor at Purina, who is still my mentor today. She mentored me for 22 years at Caterpillar after I left Purina. And then was one of the biggest proponents of me writing my book and starting my business.   And we still get together today. So, when they talk about developing people for life, they're very serious about that. And so, when I got to Caterpillar, I thought, well, they don't seem to have this.   I think I'll start a mentoring program. Well, I was, you know, some little gal in marketing. You're not going to start a mentoring program for a Fortune 50 company out of that spot.   It comes up through HR and Office of Business Practices and Legal and all of that. Anyway, I called my mentor at Purina, very frustrated, and I said, “Lynn, you and Neil make a place for me. I'm coming back.   They don't have a mentoring program here.” I don't, you know, and she said, “Okay, first of all, we didn't train you up to come back. Your job is to take this forward.”   And she said, “Are there young women there?” Yes. And she said, “Mentor them.”   And she said, “Are there leaders that need support?” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Okay, support them.”   She said, “Are there teams that need to be built?” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Then you have good work to do there.”   Go. And she hung up. I thought, OK.   And so, from that moment on, when I would see an announcement that would come through email where a woman was being hired into Caterpillar, I would reach out to her and just say, do you have a mentor or would you like one? And for 22 years, they all said yes. And so that's what I did.   I worked with those women. And, you know, here's another God wink when my announcement went out, then that I was retiring. These women all started coming back to me wherever they were in the nation and even in the world.   Many of them had gone on to do other things, bigger, better things. And they all started reaching out to me. Someone had forwarded the announcement to them and said, “We want you to start a business, a mentoring business and help others just like you helped us, and we will help you.”   And one said, “You need to write a book, and I'll write the forward.” Another one said, “Yes, and you need to do podcasts and I'll be on one.” Another one said, “I know what's going to stop you at your website, so I'm going to help you with your website.”   Another one said, “You're going to need testimonials.” So, she posted on social media that anyone that's ever been mentored by Kathryn Spitznagel, leave a message here. Very humbling.   And another one said, “I'm now VP of a big company in Chicago and I will hire you.” And so, I retired one day and started a business the next.   Laura Dugger:  (33:09 - 33:30) Incredible how that all came back around. And I gleaned so much from your stories in your book, and then even getting to connect with you before today. But there's another story about servant leadership that you shared from the man who you've named your previous boss, Neil Lewis.   Will you share? Do you know which one I'm thinking of?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (33:31 - 36:35) Yeah. You need to know three personal things about everyone who works for you. Okay.   So, Neil Lewis had leadership meetings. There were 12 of us were his leadership team every Monday morning. He was also a minister outside of work.   So, a lot of times we would laugh that we were getting the rehash of the sermon from yesterday as part of his leadership. But he often gave us assignments. And one Monday morning, he said, okay, here's your assignment.   I want you to know three personal things about everyone who works for you. And they need to be things that aren't in their personnel file. And he said, I'm going to ask you sometime this week about one of those people, but you won't know which one.   So, you need to know all of them. And I, you know, lousy leader, I was just learning. And I said, Neil, I have 10 people, three things, 10 people, that's 30 things I got to know.   And he said, Kathryn, good math. You have some work to do. So, I went back, and I interviewed each one of my 10 people, three things, found him out, followed the assignment.   And I was ready. And I saw him in the hall later in the week. He said, “Kathryn, walk with me. I'm going to the next meeting.” I said, “Okay.” Tell me three personal things about Kathy, who works for you. I said, “Okay.”   Kathy has recently divorced. Uh, she has an 18-month-old baby, and she is moving to a new apartment. And he said, “What have you done to help her?”   And honest to God, I said, “That wasn't part of the assignment.” And he looked at me and I said, “No, wait a minute. I did help her.   I changed her hours. She has a longer commute now into St. Louis. So, she's going to come in at 8:30 am and work till 5:00 pm.”   And I was feeling pretty proud of myself, like bonus question. And he said, “Did she come to you, or did you go to her?” And I said, “Well, she came to me, but I said, it was okay.”   So, Kathryn know your people. If you don't know your people, you don't know what they need. And if you don't know what they need, you can't help them.   And if you can't help them, what in the world are you doing here? It says leaders were here to serve. And if you're not here to serve, you need to step out.   I became a different leader that day. One who chose to lead by serving.   Laura Dugger:  (36:38 - 37:17) I just wanted to let you know there are now multiple ways to give when you visit thesavvysauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled support. Our mailing address is also provided.   If you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible. Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com today. Thanks for your support.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (37:18 - 38:19) You know, the other piece, uh, the other thing that he taught me there, uh, Laura, as we continued to walk, uh, because he always wanted to bring things back around to, to a positive. He was going to make his point, but he was not going to leave me there, you know? He said, Kathryn, “Do you understand what you missed there?”   It was such a missed opportunity with Kathy, um, to engage her and to help her feel cherished. He said, “That's the difference when you anticipate someone's needs and you go to them before they ask. That's the opportunity.”   That's the gold. That's what engages people and, uh, garners their loyalty. And that's when they feel cherished.   That was the real missed opportunity.   Laura Dugger:  (38:23 - 38:35) And that never left you. And that's probably blessed so many people hearing that. What about lessons of forgiveness in leadership as well?   Do you have any stories to illustrate that?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (38:35 - 42:28) Yes. And that's another lesson from, from Neil Lewis that was a profound lesson for me that I've never heard anywhere else. Forgiveness is part of leadership. So, I learned this, um, again, lousy leader just starting out.   And, um, when he put me into leadership, I was like, how hard could it be? Tell people what to do. They do it.   And then came my first employee opinion survey results and they were bad. The numbers were bad. The comments were bad.   The people were unhappy. Um, and the comments to me were, were hurtful. They were justified, but they were hurtful.   And so, when I got, uh, you know, got all the information, I left, I was upset. The next day when I came into the office, I just went into my office and closed the door. I thought they don't want to talk to me.   I don't want to talk to them. That's fine. I was working here.   So, Neil gave me a little time to cool off. And then he came in and, um, on my desk, uh, one of the things that they, um, Purina does in terms of creating that cherished culture is, um, to have things around you that revitalize you. And so, they ask you one of the first days about what, what are things that revitalize you?   And I said, okay, uh, fresh flowers revitalize me. They remind me of my grandmother, nanny, and being in the garden. Um, notes are cards from handwritten, you know, from friends and family and a walk outside.   Those are three things that revitalize me. Okay. So again, I registered with Neil Lewis.   He knew that was a way to frame things for me. So, when he came in that morning, he picked up one of the cards from my desk and he handed it to me and he said, to read that card. And I said, you can read it.   He said, “No. No, I'm asking you to read it out loud to me.” So, it was a card from someone on my team, very complimentary about my leadership style and what it, how it impacted them. And he said, “Is that the leader you are today?”   And I said, “No, but in fairness, they were mean to me. They said some very hurtful things and yeah, I'm not happy.” He said, “Okay.”   And he said, “Kathryn, as leaders, our job is to give first and give again”. And he said, “Do you know what the bridge is between giving first and giving again?” And I said, “No.”   I said, “Neil, I'm not tracking with you.” And he said, “Forgive.” And I said, “Oh, forgiveness.”   And he said, “Nope. Forgiveness is something someone else does. That's a noun. Forgive is a verb. And that's what I need to see you do. Forgive.”   He said, “Kathryn, forgiveness is a big part of leadership and it's something that will hold you back for the rest of your life. So, I am asking you today to be the leader I know you to be and forgive them.”   Laura Dugger:  (42:32 - 42:52) Well, in even the way he modeled that in the way you shared that story, it also reminds me of another leadership tool that you mentioned in your book, which I think if somebody is experiencing this, that could be a really practical next step. So, it's called the hero page. Will you elaborate on that for us?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (42:52 - 52:07) Yes. And so, at Purina, when they talked about having these one-on-ones with your team, with your mentees, with your mentors, kind of framing the dialogue in three buckets, called it three bucket exercise. And I still, this is how I still mentor today.   Uh, so the first thing we ask people to come prepared with is bucket one. What are we celebrating? What have you learned? What have you accomplished? What has gone so well?   Um, since the last time we spoke, because we, as people, but particularly as women pass through things very quickly and go, yep, done good onto the next. Yeah. We don't take that time to celebrate.   And Purina was very focused on what they called reveling. Take just a minute to revel. That was good work, did good work, but whatever was accomplished personal and professional, it was, there were things at home, baby slept four hours straight.   Okay. So, bucket one, what are we celebrating?    Um, so bucket one, they called aha.    Bucket two, they called, hmm, what is, uh, what's out there that you need to, um, do, you know, what's on your to-do list. Is there something you need to get a plan for?   Um, is there something that you want to talk through that's kind of on your assignment board, something like that. And we'll talk through some tactics.    Bucket three is what in the world.   So, anything that seems overwhelming, uh, caught you by surprise. You didn't know it was part of the job. You didn't know it was part of life.   Those are the things we want to talk about in bucket three, every time. So, you want me to tell you the things that are overwhelming me and that I don't know where to start. Yes.   Yes. Every week, because here's what we'll do. We will take the power out of that.   Once you, that's it. We're going to fix it and say, okay, this is what's overwhelming me. This is what I'm anxious about.   This is what caught me by surprise. And we're going to figure out how to break it down into something actionable. And then we're going to move it to bucket two.   And next week, we're going to be talking about those action steps and pretty soon it's going to move to bucket one. There you go. We're celebrating that process that I learned at Purina still did at Caterpillar and doing today.   Um, that just warms my heart. Uh, when I see, um, the folks that I've worked with who've now gone on to do other things. And, uh, one of the guys on my team at Caterpillar, um, now works for McDonald's in Chicago.   And he said that Kathryn, that's our onboarding process. And so, anybody that comes through his team in McDonald's, that's what they learn how to do. And he said that it was just gold.   And you can talk about creating a safe space, but again, the difference with Purina was they gave you a tool, not ours, we are a cherished culture. We create a safe space. And you know what, here's how, by asking this question and by setting aside time to answer it and wrestle with it and work through it.   Now, having said all that, where do you put this information as you're learning this about this person? Uh, you're learning what they're celebrating. You're learning, um, what their values are.   You're learning what they like to do outside of work. What's important to them learning about their purpose. That's a hero page.   And so, they gave us a tool and they said, you know, it's very simple, a hero page. You, you just record things that you have learned about this person that you respect and admire about them. And you can do one for yourself.   They ask you to do the first one for you. Um, but then also to do them for, you can do them for a peer or a leader. Um, you can also do them for someone you're struggling with because oftentimes we aren't really looking for the positives in that person.   So, the, uh, the logic behind the hero page is once you've created it, uh, you're going to look for things to put on it. Positives, all positives, negatives we remember. Positives we're looking for and that's the first reason.    The second reason for a hero page is you may have a tough day with that person sometime. And if you do, you go back and look at your hero page and it puts things in perspective.   Yeah, this isn't going well today, but here are the things I respect and admire about this person. And yes, um, perspective.    The third reason is they may have a tough day sometime and what an incredible gift you can be to them.   Here's an example. When I worked at Caterpillar, um, had wonderful leaders, some remarkable women leaders at Caterpillar, I think because there were so few of them, they were rock stars. And one that I worked for, uh, was sent to Beijing, China on a short term, like a, I don't know, six month or one year assignment as it at the same time, I was also mentoring someone in that Beijing office and it was very remote.   They were, in a remote area, creating an office, creating an HR office, you know, where they, where there's a factory and the person I was mentoring said, you know, let me give you an idea of what we're struggling with here. What kind of, what our situation is. And I'm at corporate and I said, well, whatever it is, I think I could send you some of our signage, some of our value signs.   Those are, those are, that's what you need. I'll send you some value signs. You can put them up on your walls.   And she said, Kathryn, we don't have walls. We're working out of a tent. And she said, each morning we send a bus out to the rural areas here in China and it stops to pick up workers.   And if dad can't go, he sends mom. And if mom can't go, she puts a couple of kids on the bus. And we never know from day to day who's coming to work.   What we do know is that the bus will be full. They will get two meals while they're at work, breakfast and lunch. And then when it returns them home, they will have gotten paid.   She said, we are all but paying people and chickens. Do you understand the situation, the gravity of what we're trying to do to come in here and create an office and HR processes? And she said, first, we're trying to determine who our employees are.   I said, “Oh, our leader is struggling”. And she said, “Will you get on a call with her today?” I said, “Give me a minute.”   And she said, “You're going to get her hero page.” So, we got on the call. Lois, “Kathryn, is this the woman that led one of the first NPI projects for Caterpillar as a woman with our flagship tractor?”   And she said, “Yes.” I said, “Is this the woman who was handed a belt buckle and a t-shirt and created global merchandising stores all around the world?” And she said, “Yes.”   I said, “Is this the woman who has been married 30 plus years happily, raised two remarkable children and showed us all it was possible?” Yes. I said, “I don't know what you're struggling with today, but I do know the woman who did these things can tackle this.”   What a gift you would be to another leader on the day that they needed it in that moment, just to remind them of their value.   Laura Dugger:  (52:10 - 52:40) That encouragement is so powerful. And you're such an engaging storyteller. And like you had mentioned previously, you've gone on from corporate America to now beginning your own business, including your podcast that will link to Rockstar Millennials.   So, I'm curious, Kathryn, are there any stories from those podcast episodes that really come to mind as you think of any standout lessons or your favorites?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (52:41 - 55:51) Oh my gosh. There are so many. It just seems like when I think I can't meet someone any more incredible, I do.   And again, good Lord's hand, they come from all different paths. We're international now. A couple of them that really stand out to me, Michael Kuzma,: he invented the self-playing guitar.   He knew people in his life who had either never been able to play the guitar and wanted to, or they had experienced some sort of an injury or illness that then prevented them from doing what they loved. And so, he created this and just said, “I want this to bring joy and be fun for people.” And I guess the part of the platform that I have for the podcast is purpose.   How are you living your purpose? Khushi Shah is 19 years old. So, she's a little bit younger than a millennial even.   Created a company called Drizzl and it is an informed, what I want to say, it's an irrigation company. And she created this as a science project in grade school. She's now in college at MIT and Harvard and Northeastern.   So, she's attending classes at all. She went to a science and math school in Chicago for high school, finished early and took a gap year at 17. And I said, “So you traveled?”   And she said, “Nope, I decided I'd just run that business full-time, Drizzl.” And so, her families of Indian descent. They'd gone to India and seen the need for water, clean water.   And she said, coming back to the States, I saw sprinklers, lawn sprinklers running and it was raining. And I thought, I need to fix that. There are products on the market that will turn a sprinkler off if it's raining.   Her product is predictive. She's 19. Yeah.   So, folks from St. Jude, folks from Midwest Food Bank, just incredible. Obviously, I can't name one.   There are so many. And those who are living their purpose in all walks of life, in all places around the world, I want to talk to.   Laura Dugger:  (55:52 - 56:07) Wow. And Kathryn, you've invested in so many people and highlighted so many people through your podcast. As you look back, what are you happiest that you invested your life in?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (56:09 - 57:07) Well, I'm a mom, boy mom. So that would have to be my first, my boys. Again, one of the women that I mentor said to me early on, Kathryn, one of the things I love the most is you're from the other side.   I said, Kelsey, what does that mean? I'm from the other side. And she said, you've already done all of this.   You've done the corporate life. You understand small business. You have a decades long, happy marriage.   You've raised your boys. They're happy. They're successful.   If you did this, we can do this and you can help us. And so that investment on so many levels, yeah, is coming back.   Laura Dugger:  (57:08 - 57:19) I love that. And would you be willing just to share anything else about your business or what all you have to offer so that we can continue learning from you after this conversation?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (57:20 - 1:00:49) Oh, absolutely. So, the book that you mentioned, Rockstar Millennials, Developing the Next Generation of Leaders. That's the book.   And it recounts so many of these leadership stories. And then in the back, as you said, are the different tools. And I have to credit the Caterpillar engineers because when I went to Caterpillar and I would tell these stories about Purina or I would live something that they had taught me.   Very early on, in the meeting, or after the meeting, some of these gentlemen came up to me and said, “That thing you just did in that meeting, can you write that down? Like what?” And they said, “Like the words and or the process.”   And so, it began. So, I'd start writing down the words and they might put a graphic with it or somehow improve it. And so, through the years, this same group kept coming back to me.   And when they saw the announcement that I was retiring, they showed up again and said, “Okay, we need one more thing, a spreadsheet.” What do you mean a spreadsheet? They said, “You know, all through the years, we have all of these tools now that we've created out of your head on this paper that we can use and we're using.”   If you can give us a spreadsheet that says, “If you're having this leadership issue, use this tool.” So, God bless the engineers.   So, I credit them, and the tools are in the back of the hard book.   What I found when I started doing workshops was people didn't want to write in the book and they also wanted something bigger and they wanted a place to make notes and doodle and that sort of thing. So that's why we have the book and then the toolkit. So, my business is Mentoring Women Millennials and I do one on one mentoring with individuals, small business primarily.   They'll bring me in to work with their women leaders, but also just individuals who are in some sort of a transition in life or that have never had a mentor and would like one. And so, I do the one-on-one mentoring also with nonprofits. And I'm now an 18-year breast cancer survivor, still in treatment.   And I also mentor breast cancer survivors. And keynote speaking. I work with the Capital City Speakers Bureau.   And so, I do speaking there and I'm prepping for a TED Talk. So those are the next things.   Laura Dugger:  (1:00:50 - 1:01:16) I love it. Always something up your sleeve. We will link to your website so that people can follow up and get in touch if that would be a good partnership.   And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Kathryn, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:01:18 - 1:01:49) Um, when I left Purina, um, I asked Neil, “You know, how do I ever repay this company that has given so much to me?” And he said, “Take what you've learned and help someone else.” And so, if you learn from me, that would be my ask, help someone else.   Laura Dugger:  (1:01:50 - 1:02:05) I love that. Amen. Great Savvy Sauce.   And Kathryn, you're just so poised and classy and full of insight. And it was an absolute pleasure to get to host you as my guest today. So, thank you for being my guest.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:02:05 - 1:02:07) Thank you. Thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger:  (1:02:09 - 1:05:52) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Ever question your Faith? Ever find yourself doubting your own beliefs? You're not alone. Join us for this brief discussion uncovering an often overlooked reality of what many struggle with.Matthew 28:16-17 (NIV)Romans 10:17 (ESV)Help support the channel by sharing your favorite episodes with friends, family, coworkers, or your church.Reach out with kind words, encouragement, or topic requests: ⁠⁠holyunqualified@gmail.com⁠⁠Join us on Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/holyunqualifiedpodcast⁠⁠Music: McCarthy by Blue Dot Sessions (⁠www.sessions.blue⁠)

Top Ten from 2024: #1 Stories Series: Prodigal and Redemption with Renee Endress   **Transcription of original episode**  237. Stories Series: Prodigal and Redemption with Renee Endress   Isaiah 61:1-3 (KJV) "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified."   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you tell us a bit about your experience of surrendering your life to Christ? Will you share your journey with your prodigal daughter, Andrea? Will you tell us about Grace Catering and your cookbooks?   Renée Endress is blessed to be the mother of seven children ranging from 16-32 years old, all of whom she homeschooled. Four of the seven are married and her six precious grandchildren bring her much joy and laughter! She is also part of a church family she loves and her dear parents passed on to her a love of sunsets, flowers, and the beauty of God's creation.   Cooking has been a passion for much of her life and she's written three cookbooks, which were later combined into one large book. For the past ten years, she enjoyed catering, which kept growing and eventually blossomed into an almost full-time job. A couple years ago, she refurbished a building in Peoria, Illinois, which is now her catering kitchen where they make homemade take and bake meals for people to purchase. Through it all, God has been so good!   Renée says, "I could share just the pretty parts of my life, but I've come to realize that something special can happen when people are real with each other -- when we share the muddy parts of our lives as well as the lovely parts. This can be used to encourage each other on the journey, and most of all, to point to the faithfulness of our amazing Savior, who loves to redeem our mud stories.   My story looks much different than my idealistic hopes for my future as a young woman, but through it all, God has been faithful every single step of the way. He was faithful in teaching me as an immature newlywed struggling through some very difficult relationship situations. He was faithful as I walked, tripped, and floundered with a daughter through some very dark teenage years, deep rebellion, ten months at a residential facility for troubled teens, and a teenage pregnancy. He was oh, so faithful when my difficult marriage of twenty-four years turned more and more destructive and led to an ongoing separation. He was faithful two years later when I was diagnosed with breast cancer and underwent two surgeries and radiation treatments. He has been faithful through ten years of "single" motherhood. He was faithful as He opened doors for me to start a thriving catering business at the perfect time. He was faithful when He allowed me to be a part of starting "Beauty for Ashes," a group for women from my national church who have come from painful marriages. As I look back on my life, I see plainly His footprints all the way through.   These verses have been so meaningful in my life: "...He hath sent me (Jesus) to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound... to comfort all that mourn... to give them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that He might be glorified." Isaiah 61:1-3"   Visit Renée's Business or Order Her Popular Cookbook at Grace Catering   Other Related Episode from The Savvy Sauce: 78 Parenting the Prodigal Child And God's Desire For Redemption With Mother-Daughter Duo, Claire Stanfill and Tindell Baldwin   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website.   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2024: #2 Escape from Modern Day Sex Slavery with Rachel Timothy   *DISCLAIMER* This episode includes thematic material and may be triggering. It is only intended for mature audiences and those who are not triggered by graphic sexual content.   **Transcription of original episode**  229. Escape from Modern Day Sex Slavery with Rachel Timothy   Ephesians 5:8-14 (NIV) For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light  (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)  and find out what pleases the Lord.  Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.  It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.  But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light.  This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”   Rachel Timothy was only nine years old when she was first approached by a perpetrator who was known to her as a teacher and coach. In her books, she goes into detail of the process of being groomed and how the evil of what was happening to her in the dark remained unseen by everyone around her. She describes how she coped for so many years by blocking out the memories only to have them resurface when she was an adult with a family of her own. Rachel had no idea that when she would pursue justice it would end up putting her right back in the world of trafficking. It wasn't until her church family saw the signs and believed what she was saying that she was able to start the process of finding freedom. Rachel shows her faith and love of God during the highs and lows of her journey and she prays for each person who reads her story. That their eyes will be opened and their actions will lead us toward ending sex trafficking in our world.   Stop Suffering Website   Rachel's Books: Open Blind Eyes Reflecting Ownership Reflecting Ownership Workbook   Questions and Topics We Discuss: Will you share your story with us? Will you close the loop on an update to today? How can we recognize signs of trafficking in our children and in our community?    Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Homeschool Printing Company   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website.   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2024: #3 Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery   **Transcription of original episode**  Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery   Philippians 2:4 (AMP) “Do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others."   Dr. Juli Slattery is a clinical psychologist, author, speaker and the president/co-founder of Authentic Intimacy, ministry dedicated to reclaiming God's design for sexuality.  Every Monday she hosts the podcast Java with Juli, where she and a guest sit down for coffee and honest conversation about relationships, sex, intimacy, pornography, singleness, and God's design for our sexuality.   Juli is the author of ten books, including Finding the Hero in Your Husband, Passion Pursuit, and Rethinking Sexuality.  She and her husband Mike are the parents of 3 sons; they live in Akron, Ohio.   At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.   Dr. Juli Slattery's Website, Authentic Intimacy   Java with Juli Podcast   Books by Dr. Juli Slattery:   Passion Pursuit   Rethinking Sexuality   Pulling Back the Shades   Sex and the Single Girl   25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy   Surprised by the Healer   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Bible Reading: Genesis 50:19-20; Romans 5:1-5"Sofia, chore time! Today we're going to--what's wrong?" Aunt Lori set down the buckets she was holding and gently put her hands on Sofia's shoulders. "Aren't you having a nice time on the farm?"Sofia tried to smile. "I just wish Mom and Dad were here with me." Her throat felt tight. She buried her face in her aunt's denim shirt, trying to control her tears."Oh, honey. I'm so sorry." Aunt Lori hugged her niece tight, remembering when her own parents separated many years before. "Why did God let this happen to me if He's supposed to be good? I don't see anything good in my parents getting a divorce!" Sofia said fiercely.Aunt Lori was silent as she brushed Sofia's hair. After a moment, she said, "Let's go empty the compost." As they emptied the buckets into the compost bin, Sofia grimaced at the smell of the decomposing fruits and vegetables. "Gross," she muttered. Then they walked to the garden to do some weeding. "The plants are gorgeous," Sofia observed. "How do you keep them so healthy?""I put compost on them. But those haven't been getting much," Aunt Lori said, nodding to some rows of sadder-looking plants. "Let's put some compost on them now." As they worked, Aunt Lori said, "You know, Sofi, I think we're like these plants, and the difficulties we face are like compost.""How?" Sofia asked, puzzled. "Well, God can use the hard things in our lives to help us trust Him more and grow in our faith. He promises to use everything for good. Jesus's death on the cross was horrible, yet that's how God did the greatest good of all and saved us from our sins. And He can bring good from bad things that happen. God hates divorce--it's not good. My parents' divorce was awful, but it helped me see God as my perfect, loving Father. By His grace, I'm not a withered, dying plant because I know He is always with me, giving me strength." Aunt Lori smiled.Sofia had never thought about life that way. She did want to be vibrant and strong like the healthy-looking plants. She would think hard about what Aunt Lori had said. –Rachel AvalloneHow About You?Have you gone through uncomfortable or painful things in your life? It's natural to become upset and ask God, "Why is this happening to me?" Even though bad things happen, we know God is good. He promises to be with us through the hard things, and He is always at work in our lives. When difficult things happen, trust that God will use them for good.Today's Key Verse:We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. (NIV) (Romans 8:28)Today's Key Thought:God uses everything for our good

Bible Reading: Proverbs 6:16-19; Romans 6:11-18"Be sure you check your arms and legs for ticks!" Jay's mother called as he ran into the house. It was tick season, and the insects thrived in the woods where Jay played with friends. He obediently rolled up his sleeves, and sure enough, a tiny black bug had attached itself to his skin."Ugh. Got one, Mom. Can you take it off with your tweezers?" He went into the kitchen, and his mother pulled out a special tick removal tool from one of the drawers. "Ticks glue themselves to your skin and burrow in," she said. "That's why it's important not to try to brush them off."Jay nodded. "If the head stays in, it can give you Lyme disease, right? Like our neighbor has." "Yes, though not all ticks carry Lyme disease. But any tick that's not fully removed can cause an infection, so we don't want to take any chances." Jay's mom carefully removed the tick, then dropped it into a cup of rubbing alcohol. She smiled at Jay. "You know, sin can be like a tick sometimes--like when a bad habit attaches itself to us and burrows in. The longer it's there, the easier it can be to ignore--but like not properly removing a tick, ignoring sin is dangerous!""Because it's infecting us?" asked Jay."Sin doesn't make us sick the way a tick can," said Mom. "We won't get Lyme disease. But it can weaken our sense of right and wrong and make us lose our appetite for doing things that show others the love of Jesus. That's why the Bible warns us about letting sin infect our minds and hearts.""Too bad there's no such thing as sin tick removers!" Jay grinned, and his mother laughed."We have something even better!" Mom replied. "We have Jesus, who sacrificed His life to free us from sin. When we go to Him for help and confess our wrongs, He will forgive us and help us replace bad habits with good ones. The best thing we can do is faithfully check our attitude each day. If we ask Him to remove anything in our lives that shouldn't be there, He will!" –Deborah MeroffHow About You?Have you let sinful habits attach themselves to you? Like a tick imbedded in your skin, they are harmful and need to be removed right away. Check yourself daily, and when you notice a sinful habit in your life, confess it to Jesus. He paid a lot to save you from sin, and He promises to forgive you and help you live in a way that shows you belong to Him. Today's Key Verse:Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. (NIV) (Romans 6:12)Today's Key Thought:Don't ignore sin

This week Special Guest Shaleem Manno starts a new 4 part Series: Our Father, starting with Our Father's House!   You can now see on our Youtube Channel by following this link: Our Father's House   Important Scriptures (NLT version unless stated otherwise):   Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭2‬-‭7 (NIV) Galatians‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬ (NIV) Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭6‬ ‭(NIV) Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭11 Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭14‬ ‭(NIV) John 14:11 John 14:20 ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭17‬ ‭(NIV) Jeremiah‬ ‭31‬:‭33‬ ‭(NASB2020) 1 John 5:20 ‭‭Romans‬ ‭12‬:‭2‬ ‭(NIV)

Proverbs 15:1 (NIV) "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."   **Transcription of original episode**  227. Resolving Conflict in Marriage with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo   As co-hosts of the top marriage podcast in Apple Podcasts, the ONE Extraordinary Marriage Show, Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo speak to a worldwide audience about sex, love & commitment, and challenge every listener to make their relationship a priority. Their best selling book, The 6 Pillars of Intimacy, has transformed countless marriages around the world. This framework is simple, practical, and powerful. You'll be inspired to look at your marriage through a new lens and be encouraged by its commonsense approach.   One Extraordinary Marriage Website One Extraordinary Marriage Show   Questions We Discuss: For couples who are not in destructive and abusive marriages, what are typical conflict styles and cycles? What conflict have you had recently and how did you process through it? What are common issues couples fight about?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Homeschool Printing Company   Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick 190 Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo 205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2024: #6 Friendship is Essential as a Christ-Follower with Justin Whitmel Earley   Genesis 2:18a (NIV) "The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone.”   **Transcription of original episode**  225. Friendship is Essential as a Christ-Follower with Justin Whitmel Earley   Justin Whitmel Earley is a writer, speaker, and lawyer. He is the author of the award-winning books Habits of the Household and The Common Rule, though he spends most days running his business law practice. Through his writing and speaking, Justin empowers God's people to thrive through life-giving habits that form them in the love of God and neighbor. His latest book, Made for People, delves deep into the profound impact of friendship and offers transformative strategies to combat loneliness. He lives with his wife and four boys in Richmond, Virginia, and spends a lot of time around fires and porches with friends.   Questions We Discuss: How does becoming more like Jesus look similar to becoming more like a friend? What are some questions we can ask our friends the next time we get together, in hopes of taking our conversation and connection to a deeper level? Will you share your experience when you recognized friends are essential in the battle against evil?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Homeschool Printing Company   Additional Recommended Episode from The Savvy Sauce: 90 Friendship with Drew Hunter   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2024: #7 Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen   *DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults   Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen   1 Corinthians 7:3 (AMP) “The husband must fulfill his [marital] duty to his wife [with good will and kindness], and likewise the wife to her husband."   **Transcription of original episode**  BONUS: Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen   Dr. Jennifer Konzen is a certified sex therapist, award winning researcher, and international speaker who lives in San Diego, California. She and her husband Time have four kids. She has been a parent educator, a marriage, parenting, and sexuality seminar and conference speaker, and yes, a Broadway showtimes performer (her undergraduate degree is in Musical Theater and Vocal Performance).    Dr. Jennifer Konzen's Website    Art of Intimate Marriage by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen   Redeemed Sexuality by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen   Intimate Marriage Cards by Tim Konzen and Dr. Jennifer Konzen   The Gottman Institute   hotholyhumorous.com   christianfriendlysexpositions.com   christiannymphos.org    Thank You to Our Sponsor: The Sue Neihouser Team   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website.   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

John 3:6-7 (NIV)Romans 8:1-17 (NIV)

Top Ten from 2024: #8 Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow   Matthew 18:3 (NIV) "And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."   **Transcription of original episode**  230. Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow   Questions and Topics We Discuss: As our children grow up, what wisdom can you share for both participating in and refraining from sports in childhood? Do you have any counsel for us as we navigate the teen years, especially as it relates to technology and friendships or relationships? If we do find ourselves in a child-centered family today, what are a few practical steps to move us in the direction of God's actual vision for our family and our marriage?   Dr. Rob Rienow married Amy in 1994 and they have been blessed with 7 children. His most important ministry is loving his wife and leading his children to know God and love Him. Rob's mom came to Christ shortly after he was born so he was blessed to be introduced to Jesus at an early age. His parents divorced when he was in high school and God used that painful time in his life to give him a heart for young people and families going through dark times. He attended Wheaton College, then completed an MA in theology at Wheaton College Graduate School, an MDiv from Trinity International Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry in Christian Leadership from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.    Rob's life dramatically changed in 2004. God brought him to a place of deep repentance over the fact that he was disciplining other people's children, but not his own. He was a spiritual leader at church, but passive with his family. Through that time of repentance, God turned his heart to the ministry of his children and his wife. God then led He and Amy to launch Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry designed to inspire parents and grandparents to disciple their children, to help couples create mission driven-marriages, and equip churches to build Bible-driven ministries. Their mission is to build the church through a global reformation of family discipleship.   He shares the biblical message of family discipleship at national and international conferences for parents, couples, and church leaders. He partners and consults with numerous churches, encouraging them to accelerate evangelism and discipleship through families.   Continue Learning from Dr. Rob Rienow: Visionary Family Website Family Vision Podcast Books and Resources by Dr. Rob Rienow   Other Episodes on The Savvy Sauce with Dr. Rob Rienow: 87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow Special Patreon Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow   Other Episode Recommended from The Savvy Sauce: 228 Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships with Joey Odom   (When you get your Aro Box, use code SAVVY for 1 month off a prepaid annual membership & 2 months off a two year membership)   Thank You to Our Sponsor: BELAY (Text SAVVY to 55123 before June 30th, 2025 to receive your amazing, limited-time, special offer!!!)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Top Ten from 2024: # 9: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder   Disclaimer: This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.   Ephesians 4:31+32 “Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”   **Transcription of original episode** Special Patreon Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder   Dave Carder serves as Pastor of Counseling Ministries at First Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton, CA.   His specialty is Adultery Recovery and Prevention for which he has appeared on numerous media outlets including The Oprah Winfrey Network, Discovery Health, and The Learning Channel, The Tony Robbins Passion Project, Ladies Home Journal, USA Today, The Counseling Connection, and various other magazines and journals.  He has taught at various universities and seminaries world wide, and has done training for both the US Navy and Army.   He is the author or co-author of Torn Asunder: Recovering from an Extramarital Affair, Close Calls: What Adulterers Want You to Know About Protecting Your Marriage, and Unlocking Your Family Patterns: Finding Freedom from a Hurtful Past. He holds the Michigan Limited License for Psychology and the California Marital and Family Therapy license, and has graduate degrees in Biblical Literature and Counseling Psychology.   Dave and his wife, Ronnie, have been married over 50 years, and have four adult children and eight grandchildren. More info is available at www.DaveCarder.com   At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.   Anatomy of an Affair by Dave Carder   Torn Asunder by Dave Carder   Torn Asunder Workbook by Dave Carder   Close Calls by Dave Carder   Schedule an appointment with Dave Carder HERE   Dave Carder's Website, Including FREE video series on recovering from extramarital affair   How We Love Website   5 Love Languages Website   Couple Talk Website   Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass   Thank You to Our Sponsor: BELAY (Text SAVVY to 55123 before June 30th, 2025 to receive your amazing, limited-time, special offer!!!)   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

"Persistent Prayer"Luke 18:1-8Kyle Van DykeJune 1, 2025NEW KIDS SPACE NOW OPEN!We have expanded with 3x more space for the babies, kids, and youth in your family. https://www.instagram.com/oasischurchva/reel/C8FqHIipr3u/How should Christians think about politics? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak82aD16r04Learn about this year's Kingdom Builder's project: https://www.oasischurch.online/kingdom-buildersOUR NEW VISION STATEMENT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0WFhtL7h3ISERMON NOTES:- Persistent Prayer- Luke 18:1-8 (NIV)- 1 Thessalonians 5:17 (NIV)- Romans 12:12 (NIV)- Matthew 7:7 (NIV)- Ephesians 6:18 (NIV)- Colossians 4:2 (NIV)- Verse 1 - The Why- Why do we lose heart in prayer?    1. Prayer is hard work.    2. We are directed away from genuine prayer.    3. We are not always convinced of the reality of the power of prayer.- Verse 2 and 3 - The Characters- The Judge    Unjust    No fear of God    No regard for people- The widow:    Powerless    Persistent    Bold- Verse 4 and 5 - The Appeal- Persistence in prayer reflects faith, not frustration.- “How many times we ask of God and have not because we do not wait long enough at the door? We knock a time or two at the gate of Mercy and as no friendly messenger opens the door, we go our ways. Too many prayers are like boys' runaway knocks—given and then the giver is away before the door can be opened.” (Spurgeon)- Verse 6 and 7 - The Contrast- God:    Attentive    Powerful    Just- Jesus uses the formula of “How Much More”.- Verse 8 - The Warning- Jesus ties persistence in prayer to genuine faith.- When we persist in prayer we become petitioners of righteousness, not merely shoppers of blessings.Oasis Church exists to Worship God, Equip the believers, and Reach the lost.We are led by Pastor Nate Clarke and are located in Henrico north of Richmond, VA.STAY CONNECTEDInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/oasischurchva/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/OasisChurchRVA/Website: https://oasischurch.onlineOasis Church exists to Worship God, Equip the believers, and Reach the lost.We are led by Pastor Nate Clarke and are located in Richmond, VA.Stay Connected:Website: https://oasischurch.online Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/oasischurchva/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/OasisChurchRVA/

Bible Reading: Genesis 3:8-23; Romans 6:23; 8:1 Lila normally loved her and Mom's monthly post-church café tradition. They sat at their usual window seat, but today Lila nudged ice cubes around with her straw in silence. Unable to bear the silence anymore, Mom asked what was wrong. Sighing, Lila responded, "Well, we learned about sin today at church, and I just don't understand. Why does sin have to ruin everything, and why does it cause pain and death and heartbreak?""Now that's a big question," Mom said, "but a good one. Let me take a moment and try to think of a good way to answer." She looked out the window until her eyes landed on something. "Do you see that wasp?" Lila grimaced at the yellow-and-black-winged terror. "Yes.""Well, sin is kind of like your allergic reactions to wasp stings," said Mom. "How did you feel when you got stung last week?"Lila rubbed the spot on her arm where a wasp had stung her. It was still slightly red and raised up. "I was dizzy. My whole arm swelled up, and I even had trouble breathing.""Right. Even though the wasp only stung one tiny part of your body, you still felt its horrible effects everywhere. Like your bee sting, it only took one mistake for everything to become cursed with sin. When Adam and Eve, the first two people, chose their own way instead of God's, their disobedience broke the perfect relationship they had with God and brought sin and its horrible effects into the world.""And that's why Jesus had to come," said Lila.Mom nodded. "Jesus's perfect life, death on the cross, and resurrection from the grave saves us from the punishment of sin and heals our relationship with God. But because sin still exists in the world, we see its effects in our lives--like when wasps sting us and cause us pain. Yet we can be excited about how God will make everything perfect again one day." Lila glanced at the wasp outside the window. "Yeah, thank You, Jesus, for saving us…and thank You for allergy medicine!""Praise Jesus, indeed," Mom said with a smile.Lila grinned as their server set a plate of waffles down in front of her. "Praise Jesus for waffles too." –Zoe Brickner How About You?Have you ever wondered how sin could cause so much pain and suffering in the world? It's easy to forget how awful sin truly is and how it effects everything. But God, out of His unexplainable and never-ending love for us, sent Jesus to save us from sin, and He promises to one day make everything perfect again. When we trust in Him, we can look forward to the day when all pain and suffering will end. Today's Key Verse:For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NIV) (Romans 6:23)Today's Key Thought:God will make everything perfect

What if your season of waiting isn't a setback, but a setup for something greater?In this week's sermon Junior High Director, Sean Murphy, explores Psalm 40:1–3 and the truth that our waiting can draw us closer to God, deepen our trust, and become a powerful testimony to others. Pastor Sean shares personal stories, biblical insight, and even the words of an 8th-grade student to show that when we wait expectantly—not passively—God hears, God moves, and God transforms.

263. Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack   Mark 10:27 NKJV "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”   **Transcription Below**   Questions and Topics We Discuss: Will you teach us about the various types of abuse? How do we respond appropriately and in a Christ-like manner when someone does report abuse? What are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to each type of abuse?   Stacey Womack is an award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She founded Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services (ARMS) in 1997 and she is a published author and sought after national speaker. Stacey developed and wrote the curriculum used for ARMS programs, including Her Journey for survivors of abuse and Mankind and Virtue for men and women who have used abusive behaviors. She has assisted tens of thousands of people in recovering from both the receiving and giving of abuse. Her passion has grown ARMS, a small grassroots organization, to now having an international reach.   Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services Website Stacey's Books   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Grace Catering   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick 148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:50) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.    For anyone who feels like they don't have time to cook, but they still desire to have meals that taste just like grandma's, I can't wait to share more about one of my favorite sponsors, Grace Catering Company. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.   Stacey Womack is my guest today. She is the award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She is the founder of Abuse Recovery Ministry and Services, which she will refer to as ARMS, and she's also the author of this practical and helpful resource entitled On the Front Lines of Abuse, Strategies for the Faith Community.   Stacey fearlessly answers questions today about what defines abuse, what steps can we take today to discover if we're in an abusive relationship, what does the Bible have to say about abuse and divorce, and so much more. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.   Stacey Womack: Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.    Laura Dugger: Would you mind just starting us off by giving us a current snapshot of your phase of life?   Stacey Womack: (1:52 - 2:48) Sure. You know, I've been doing this work for 27 years, but actually I grew up in a pastor's home and married young and had my children young. I have six children, and I have my 13th grandchild on the way, and my first great-grandchild is due in December. And in the midst of homeschooling my kids back in the day, God began to speak to me about ministry that he had for me.   And so, this was the door he opened, even though I'm not a survivor of abuse. And back then I never had planned on starting a nonprofit or, you know, having it be the way it is, never planned on having an income off of it. None of that was a part of the plan.   I was just being obedient to what God had called me to do. And so here we are today, 27 years later, providing services nationally and internationally to victims and survivors of abuse and also working with those who use abusive and controlling behaviors.   Laura Dugger: (2:50 - 3:12) Wow. And abuse is something that's so difficult to understand, and it's a topic that's easy for us to want to avoid. But I appreciate you bringing awareness to this topic that affects more people than we would ever suspect.   So, will you just teach us the various types of abuse?   Stacey Womack: (3:12 - 12:56) Sure. So, I'll try to go through them fairly briefly for you, but most of the time they only give you a few, but we have eight different areas of abuse that we talk about. So, you know, most people get physical abuse.   That's how most people define domestic violence and abuse is physical, which is all the things from hitting, pushing, slapping, grabbing, strangulation, which is something that's very dangerous. And a person's at risk of dying days and weeks after being strangled, even months after being strangled. So, it's a very serious crime.   Most states it's a felony. But every category has those things that aren't as obvious. So, in physical, it would be like posturing where someone stands up or takes a step towards you, it's right in your space.   The most common form of abuse is psychological, though. This is what is often called emotional abuse by most people. So psychological abuse, I kind of divided into three categories.   The largest one is the crazy making the mind games, the mental coercion, the gaslighting, all those things. And that's very, very hard to explain to people. And it doesn't look like abuse.   It looks like non-memorable conflict oftentimes and gets misdiagnosed that way, I guess you could say. And it's the form of abuse that women say is the hardest to heal from because bruises heal. But the emotional ones that psychological abuse causes can take years and years to heal from.   So also, another big category besides the mind games is the isolation. So, keeping them from friends and family could be outright telling them not to spend time with friends and family, or it could be, you know, allowing them to go spend time with friends and family, but then they pay for it later. So, there's some type of punishment for doing that.   Moving her from place to place, or church to church, to keep her from having any kind of support. So that's very common. And then another category in here, and I'm just keeping them very brief, is stalking behaviors, which stalking should be taken very seriously because 75% of those who commit homicides are stalkers.   So, this is everything from following, showing up uninvited, not leaving when asked, to the use of spyware, which is often free or cheap. So, you know, those air pods, they drop them in people's purses or put them in places in their car or whatever, just so they can follow them where they're going, those types of things. And among our younger generation, a common stalking behavior would be multiple calling and multiple texting.   So, the second closest that comes to emotional abuse would be verbal abuse. And most of us get the types of verbal abuse that are obvious, the yelling, the swearing, the name calling, the, you know, put downs. I mean, things that are really obvious.   And this is a huge category and not well understood because we have all used some verbal abuse in our lives. So, everything down to things that are more subtle, like the silent treatment as a way to control the conversation or sarcasm, which is actually means the tearing of flesh. So, it's not a healthy way to communicate.   There's a little bit of truth to it. That's what makes it funny. But it's always at someone's expense.   And we live in a pretty sarcastic world. And I, myself, can be pretty sarcastic at times after really watch that because it's really not a kind way to communicate. So, again, this is a huge category.   So, we have verbal, psychological, physical, financial, lots of financial control and abusive relationships. Most of our men who are abusive use financial control. So, he's making all the financial decisions.   He's controlling the finances, or he allows her to have some access to finances, but not all by  hiding assets and hidden accounts, things like that. Or maybe making her handle all the finances while he goes out and misspends. So, then it's her fault.   And now he has a reason to abuse her. And even once they separate, financial abuse continues by not paying a spousal or child support. So, I tell our women to not depend on that, do what they need to do legally, but not to depend on it because it's very hard to get that money back.   So, we have verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual, which people get that one too. Rape, unwanted touch, attacking body parts, making her dress a certain way or not dress a certain way. It could include extreme jealousy, which is, again, goes right back into those stalking behaviors.   So, it's these pornography affairs, sexual name calling or sexual putdowns or sexual jokes. Again, another really big category. So that a lot of times some more subtle things that people don't recognize as being abusive because a lot of people use it, like the sexual name calling or sexual using sexual cuss words.   So, I always have to go through those verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual property. We don't always think about property being abusive. But if an abuser can convince his victim that he's dangerous, he never has to be physical.   And so, he might punch the hole right next to your head. I had a woman tell me this. And then he saw the fear in her face, and he said, “What? I didn't even touch you.” But the message was, this is what could happen to you. So, property is not always it can include, but it is not always the breaking of things or throwing things.   It could be slamming doors, slamming hands on the table. But it could also be moving property to make her think she's going crazy. So, she has a place she keeps her keys. He moves them to make her think she's going crazy, that she can't remember where she's putting things anymore.   So, you always have an overlap in an abusive event. It's never just one form of abuse unless it's just psychological and very subtle. But property abuse also includes the use of weapons.   In the groups that we've been doing with men for the more than two decades that we've been working with them, usually they're not using the weapon there. It's the implied threat of use of weapons. So, we had one woman who went to her boyfriend's house, and he came out of his bedroom with a knife and laid it on the table and said, “I just don't know what I'd do if you left me.”   Or we had many guys in the program for tapping knives while they create and continue arguments with their partners. So, it could be any misuse of any property. It could even be gift giving to get her to comply back into the relationship.   So, it's not always what you think of when you think of like guns and knives. It doesn't have to be that way. It can be very subtle.   So then we have spiritual abuse, spiritual abuse. Since we're a faith-based organization, we talk about the misuse of scripture. So, he's using scripture to get her to comply, to get his way.   And God's word is a balance between judgment and love and mercy. And when you remove that love and they're just going with the judgment side of God's word, you are misusing God's word. It's not what God intended for his word.   He did not ever intend for the word to be weaponized against a person, especially in an intimate relationship. So, we talk about the difference between submission and oppression and how they are different from one another in our groups. It's also for our men who attend church regularly.   I always tell pastors, if you've got a man who's coming to you and he's working his way through the church leadership and he's being very humble and he's telling you that he knows he has his issue, but he's concerned for his wife that he's not really being abusive. That she just thinks he's being abusive to her because she's experienced abuse in the past or she has mental health issues or she's cheating on him, which is usually not true. They're doing this to discredit her while they're doing what we call public image management to make themselves look good to the public.   So, they're involved in all kinds of things. It may be on the church council. So, you know, when they tell their church leadership this, it's hard to believe.   It's hard for them to believe when she comes forward and says this is what's actually going on in my relationship because they've not experienced that from him. He's been a great guy around them. So, questioning her theology, her salvation, keeping her from going to church, making her go to church, moving her from church to church, things like that, too.   And then the last one is animal abuse. And of course, we think about harming animals. And of course, when you harm an animal, that is animal abuse.   But in terms of the work we do, it's about using the animal to control the person in some way. And that might include the threat to get rid of it, the threat to harm or the threat to kill or the doing of those things or neglecting, not like not feeding or watering the pet. But it could also be things like getting a pet she's allergic to or afraid of or withholding affection from her while he's being overly affectionate to the pet.   We have lots of women who tell us about that. So, again, it's not about necessarily harming the pet as much as it is about using the pet to gain control. You have to remember that abuse is about power and control and abuse means the misuse of.   So, anything can be misused, not just physical hitting and punching and misuse of our strength, but anything can be misused. And when it's used to gain power and control in an intimate relationship. It's a pattern; that's when you're looking at someone who has an abusive personality.   Laura Dugger: (12:57 - 13:27) Wow. Thank you for laying that foundation and expanding our definition. It sounds like so many sins, domestic violence can be insidious, and it can usually begin with a very charming spouse who eventually becomes more and more abusive.   So, have you found that people more easily recognize when they're in an abusive relationship or is it surprising and confusing to them?   Stacey Womack: (13:28 - 16:58) It's mostly confusing and surprising, maybe in that order. You know, since I work with these men, too, there are really great things about them. There's really good qualities I see in them.   And that's what these women fall in love with, these really great qualities. And these men can be extremely charming. And even if you haven't been raised in abuse and you find yourself in an abusive relationship, sometimes it's because you were in a really vulnerable place when you got involved.   And it just felt really good to have somebody come in and be so big and strong and great in your life. Or there's other times guys are just so good at this that they're just believe completely. There's no reason not to believe, right?   I mean, you trust somebody because you expect them to be telling you the truth. So, it usually starts off very subtle and it gradually increases. So, he might start questioning.   So, is that what you're going to wear? Or, you know, well, that's a lot of makeup. Or maybe, you know, telling her that he doesn't agree with something that she agrees with and that maybe her friends and family aren't good for her and maybe she needs to distance herself from them.   We've had women tell us that that happens to them. So, we have a checklist on our website under am I in an abusive relationship, basically. And underneath that, there's actually a PDF that they can print out and check off.   And it usually starts off with things like, are you surprised by his anger? Does his anger scare you? You know, and then we work down to more obvious forms of abuse.   But when a woman goes through that list and it's actually degenerate. So, a male or a female could go through the list. And they could go through it and they could determine, am I experiencing a pattern of these behaviors in my life?   Marriage should be the safest place for you. And when it's not, there's something wrong there. And we do work with women who are abusive.   So, I do want to acknowledge that there are male victims out there. And when they call us, since we don't have a group for them, because perpetrators believe they are the victims. So, if I opened a men's victim group, I would get a room full of perpetrators.   Male victims tend to say very similar things to our female victims and behave in very similar ways that our women behave as well. And so, we refer them out to counselors that we trust. And, you know, and women can be what we call primary aggressors in the relationship.   And they act and talk and say the same kinds of things as our male primary aggressors. And most primary aggressors are male because it just works better for them. They're bigger, they're stronger, they're given privilege that women are not given.   So, it just works better for them. But there are women out there who do that. And then there's those relationships where both parties are using abused.   But one is a primary and one is a secondary. It doesn't make the abuse okay. It doesn't even make it okay when you or I say something or act in a way that disregards or disrespects another person.   That's sin. So, I think that we need to be really honest with the fact that this is a human issue. And that it's okay to come out and say, you know what, I have a problem with this.   And I need help. And that's what we're trying to offer for both the men and the women that we serve.   Laura Dugger: (16:59 - 17:21) And I'm just simplifying it. But in my mind, when you talk about primary and secondary, it makes me think for that secondary person, just simply hurt people, hurt people. So, is that what you're talking about?   Where they are not the initiators of the abusive behavior, but when they are abused over time, they respond with abusive patterns as well?   Stacey Womack: (17:21 - 19:17) Yeah, abuse is a learned behavior. So, if they grew up in a home where abuse was present, you know, as much as you don't like some of those negative things that we all get from growing up, we get good things and bad things. We often end up repeating them until we learn something different. And so, some of our women in our secondary aggressors program, you know, have had to fight their entire life to survive.   And sometimes it's just safer to be the aggressor than it is to be the victim. And so, a lot of times when women are using abusive behaviors, it's more about trying to be heard or it's payback. So, they don't really gain power and control from their abuse, not really.   It's usually when they're abusive, the women are just getting payback for what their abuser did. So, one woman, her and her husband had an argument and he's this big guy. And so, to get back at him, we would call this properly anal and psychological.   She took the pillow and rubbed it all over the cat because he's allergic to cats and put the pillow back on the bed so he'd wake up with puffy eyes. It's a very passive form of abuse, but it is a way to get back at him. And then we have those women who just fight back verbally and they can.   I had this little gal, not probably hardly even 100 pounds. She could bring a 200 pound, six foot tall husband to his knees with just her words. And this is a woman who had to fight her entire life.   So, you know, you can see there's times where relationships where there's more. I don't really like the word mutual, but there's they're both using abusive behaviors, but it's the only way they know how to live life. And so, the women come out of this program saying, now I understand that his abuse to me does not excuse my abuse to him.   And I have power to make choices that will bring change to my life. And that's a powerful place to be much more powerful than being a victim.   Laura Dugger: (19:18 - 19:45) Absolutely. And I think the hope that I'm hearing is when you say abuse is a learned behavior. Does that mean we can learn our way out of it as well?   So, anyone who is in an abusive relationship or is finding if they're listening to this, maybe they find out that they are the abuser, you can learn your way out of it then?   Stacey Womack: (19:45 - 21:27) You can. It takes a tremendous amount of work. But both the victim and the perpetrator or the survivor, they have to learn new tools, both of them, because we have women who get out of abusive relationships who find themselves right back into another abusive relationship.   The tools that women use in abusive relationships are amazing. The ways that they do things to survive the abuse is absolutely amazing. But those same tools do not serve them well once they're out of abuse.   Some of them get into healthy relationships, but they're still using those old tools that they picked up during the abusive relationship. And so, they come to group a recovery group so that they can heal from that and learn a new way and let go of that pain and hurt and learn behavior so that they can also be healthy in that relationship with that new partner. So, and he also and for the abuser, someone who's like this is they've been the primary aggressor in the relationship and they have a lifetime of picking up belief systems that have given them permission to behave that way.   And that doesn't change in 12 weeks. Programs for those guys and those gals should be long; thirty-six weeks the absolute minimum. I think a year or even two years is better because you need practice to sustain change. We have lots of guys who change, but getting that sustained change takes lots of accountability and lots of hard work.   And it's difficult to do. But we have those stories of couples that make it. There's a lot more that don't make it.   All the men make some changes, but often not enough to save the relationship. So, it varies.   Laura Dugger: (21:27 - 23:38) And now a brief message from our sponsor, Grace Catering Company in North Peoria offers a rotating menu of scrumptious meals for you to take home and pop in your own oven with family friendly options like lasagna, bacon wrapped meatloaves, chicken Alfredo pasta, breakfast burritos and creamy garlic chicken breasts. Your homemade dinner will be on the table in no time. They also offer healthier and lighter options as well as some gluten-free and keto-friendly choices.   The meals are packaged in a variety of sizes, which makes it perfect for individuals or couples, or they have portions large enough to feed the entire family. Their menu is on a six-week rotation. You can stop by for a grab and go lunch with their signature sandwiches, salads, soups or quinoa bowls depending on the season.   I also recommend you top off your meal with one of their sweet treats, such as their popular scotcheroos, iced sugar or chocolate chip cookies, or their cookie of the month. The founder and owner Renee Endres has also created my all-time favorite cookbook. My grandparents actually gave this to me as a gift when I was a newlywed and it has been put to great use for the past decade and a half.   The recipes are easy and approachable and the feedback from our family and from guests we've hosted in our home has always been positive when the meal came from Renee. When I've gifted this cookbook to friends, they will commonly remark how these are also the most delicious desserts they've ever tasted. Our extended family also loves to use the take and bake options on Sunday afternoons, which allows us to enjoy a delectable meal while still getting to enjoy a true Sabbath.   Grace Catering Company is located just off Alta Lane in North Florida. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.    Well, and with your programs, what are some of the things that you do offer for someone who finds themselves in an abusive relationship?   Stacey Womack: (23:40 - 28:08) Yeah, so our largest program is called Her Journey and it's a victim survivor recovery program. So, it doesn't matter what form of abuse you experienced or are experiencing. It could be years ago even.   And we have this, it's a 15 week program, but we lead it year-round so you can just start immediately. It's one of the things that we found out as we've been doing this national campaign is that we're the only ones that we've found that are free. It's a free program.   We have Zoom. So, we have every day of the week covered. If we don't have something right in your own state, in your county.   But we're in-person groups in 21 states right now and looking to lead more or teach more leaders how to lead the program in their community, or in their centers, or in their missions. They're often held in churches. It's all confidential.   The women just call in. They don't have to give us their real name. They don't have to give us any information.   They don't want to. We just ask whatever name they use. They keep using the same name so we don't care if they say their name is Minnie Mouse.   That's fine with us. Just so that we can keep track of it for grant purposes. But in that group, it's not a process group.   It's really about hearing God's heart around this issue. And they do get training around domestic violence. But we also go through other topics like dealing with anger, depression and loneliness and just all the different things that happen throughout this process.   Learning how to appropriately boundary set and what to do and what's going to work with an abuser. What's not going to work with an abuser. Those types of things. And so, we found that we just keep it open so the women can join immediately. Because if we don't help them right when they're asking for the help, we'll lose them because the abuser will very quickly work to move them back into the relationship, which is part of the cycle of abuse. And because we want the relationship to work and we want to believe him, we do.   And so, women, you know, leave on average seven times before they leave for good because we don't get into a relationship to see it in. And so, when I talk and train pastors and I had a pastor say, “Well, she's just looking for a way out.” I'm like, “No, that's not true.”   These women do everything, including couples counseling, which is something that does not work when abuse is the issue and power control is the issue. And most pastors that I haven't heard of any seminary that actually does a whole course on domestic violence, they get a little bit of couples counseling and that's it. And even counselors don't get trained in domestic violence.   So, this is only a very small portion of counselors. So, I would tell these women, if you're listening to this now, that they shouldn't do couples counseling, but they should look for a counselor who has 40 hours of victim advocacy training from an advocacy agency and that he needs to go work on his own issues with an agency that deals with domestic abuse intervention. And a lot of times the things that she thinks, or they both think, they need couples counseling for go completely away once he does the work he needs to do.   So, the communication problems, the anger issues, all those things that they think are the cause are no longer an issue. Most of our couples don't even need couples counseling after this because he has learned to love like Jesus loves. That's what we teach is like, what does that mean to be Christlike?   What does that mean to lay your life down? So, but during our time that we work with women or men, secondary or primary aggressors, female or male, we in our groups talk about focusing on that themselves and their relationship with God and not focusing outward because God will take care of that. Sure, pray about it, but release it.   That's God's responsibility. You only have control of this relationship is between yourself and God. And that's where you're going to seek Him about what He's calling you to do in this situation.   And every person's a little bit different. It's not my place to tell someone whether to leave or stay. And we're not here to promote divorce.   And we know the women want their relationships to work. We know they want men to make it to the other side. We do, too, but we cannot make that happen.   So, all we can do is present the information and allow the Holy Spirit to do the work. And the person has to be willing to receive the help.   Laura Dugger: (28:09 - 28:35) Absolutely. Well, and I even think about how this conversation came about. We had multiple women of different ages, all of them believers, who were reaching out and sharing a little bit of their experience in marriage and sharing some potential abuse.   And I actually reached out to some publicists that I work with and said, “Who would be able to speak to this?” And so that's how we got connected.   Stacey Womack: (28:36 - 28:36) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (28:36 - 28:54) Very much appreciated your book. And as I was reading it, there was one story that was particularly haunting. And it was about a pastor who ended up begging you for training.   So, can you recall what happened?   Stacey Womack: (28:54 - 34:09) Yeah. You know, a lot of pastors just it's not that they don't care. It's just that they're very uneducated around this.   So even myself, when I first started, I would give people really unhelpful advice before I even began this work because I didn't understand it well. And so, he had encouraged this woman to forgive and go back, which is a typical response. You know, submit more, pray harder.   Those are the kinds of things that a lot of women get from churches. And so, she did. She went home and then he murdered her that night.   And so, this pastor was absolutely heartbroken, as you can imagine, and was calling in and asking, please, please, please train us because we don't want this to ever happen again. You know, and honestly, there are some pastors out there that believe that women should stay in the relationship, even if they are being abused and that God will bless them through their suffering, even if it means death. I don't agree with that.   See, I think that God would never sacrifice a person for the sake of the relationship. But we do as the church sometimes because we're so concerned about the relationship. The relationship is important and God has got a reconciliation and we want reconciliation, too.   But God also tells us the prudent man or woman hides from danger and he cares about us as individuals. And He has called us to live life abundantly, not to just bear it, you know. And so, I think that we need to really look at that.   And being raised as a pastor's daughter that, you know, I was taught that way. So, it was a really it's been really hard, you know, working in the faith communities really struggles with this. And, you know, this idea that, well, a separation might lead to divorce.   But separation is really functional in these relationships because she needs safety so that she can talk, speak the truth from this other person. And she needs time to see whether or not he's willing to actually get the help that he's been promising he'll get. And they need time to see if he can actually work through that.   Or is he just using a program as another controlling behavior to get her to come back into a relationship? If she waits long enough and we usually say six months and he's mad that she's not letting him back home. He goes right back to all the bad behaviors he was doing before.   And he pulls all the money out of the bank and does all these crazy things. And she has her answer, which is heartbreaking. The women are heartbroken over this because they want their relationships to work.   We cannot emphasize that enough to the faith community. These women want their relationships to work and that they did not sign up for this. They did not sign up for these.   They did not say, “Oh, yes, I am agreeing to get married and be abused.” That's how they agreed to. And he made a promise to love and cherish.   And the Bible commands men to love their wives like Christ loves the church and to lay his life down. That means he gives up his way to bless her, that Jesus came to serve, not to be served. So, his role is one of being the lead servant in the relationship.   He should be the first to be serving her. And how do we respond as women? We feel loved and cherished and cared for when that happens.   My husband's so good at this. I have to be careful if I say I'm thirsty, he's up getting me a glass of water. He's so quick to serve.   But this is the kind of behavior that blesses us. And men are surprised that the very thing they want, the respect, honor, all those kinds of things. They get it by doing the very opposite of what they're doing, by giving up their way, by embracing humility.   And humility is hard because it means it's not about being 50-50 or being fair. It's about going 100 percent or more. So, my husband would share because he leads manuscripts with me.   And he says, you know, guys, you know, if Stacy's at 20 percent, then I need to go 180. I need to go in and fill in that gap for her. And there's times I do that for him, too, because unhealthy relationships like that's what we do for women.   But an abusive relationship, that's never what happens. And an abuser has and this is very popular, a narcissistic view of his world. He may not realize that it doesn't mean he has narcissistic personality disorder.   Those guys are very different and they stick out sore thumbs, but they all behave narcissistic, narcissistically, meaning their world revolves around them. So, they want you to manage their emotions. They blame you for when they're unhappy.   And even if you weren't even present, when whatever happened, that he's unhappy that he still blames you for it, which doesn't make sense. It's that crazy making. It's like, “Wow, how am I the cause of this when this happened at work? I don't understand.” You know, so there's all that craziness that goes on.   But, you know, I'm so honored to get to walk alongside men and women in their process of change and their aha moments and their realization that God loves them and that God values them and that they're important and they're regarded. And that because of that, abuse is never OK. It's never OK.   Laura Dugger: (34:10 - 35:21) The few follow ups with that, then to go back to an earlier point, you're making a connection for me where I'm thinking back to a few episodes. It was one was with Leslie Vernick and one was with Dr. Diane Langberg. So, I can't remember who said this.   I can link to both in the show notes, but it's what you're speaking to that as we study the scriptures and we see Christ likeness and how to become more Christ like and what God really says about these topics. They were pointing out he cares about the individual more than the institution. Yeah.   And so, I think there's a lot of re-education for us in the faith community, unfortunately. But then also two follow up questions. One, as you're talking about narcissism or a narcissistic outlook, is there ever from your experience?   I'm familiar with some of my friends who are in relationships like that or acquaintances that I know. Is there ever hope for the husband who has narcissistic tendencies or personality disorder to repent? Have you ever seen that?   Stacey Womack: (35:21 - 37:16) Absolutely. We have men who've done a really great job of working away from being self-focused and selfish. That's really what it is.   They read these journals and we make comments on them and they have to come up with the beliefs that gave them permission to behave this way. So, we had one guy and you could just see a selfishness that I always wrote. The belief is I'm most important.   I've read it every on every single journal. And he finally came to group after a few months because I really realize I'm really selfish. And so, as we help them to see this, it begins to change things and they begin to make different choices and try new things.   As someone who has a narcissistic personality disorder, like any personality disorder, those are not medicated. They can't be medicated and it takes a longer time. So, I've had some training on narcissistic personality disorder and I recognize those guys.   Any of those guys generally with personality disorders because they don't see themselves. So, the group laughs at things I say, but they don't understand why they're laughing. And those guys need like seven years of counseling with someone who specializes in narcissistic personality disorder.   If they're willing to do the work that that they can actually make changes. And there's a gentleman who who's travels the country speaking on this. He says that's his favorite group of population he works with.   I can't say the word narcissistic personality disorder men. And he says, you would like this man today. But he had like multiple failed businesses.   He'd been very successful, but they're failing businesses, failing marriage. And he worked with them and you don't work with them the same as just typical counseling. It's not the same because they don't see themselves.   So, we need more people who specialize in that.   Laura Dugger: (37:16 - 38:12) I agree with you there. And it's just helpful to have that reminder of hope. Even this morning in my quiet time, I was reading in the Gospels and it was Jesus saying and everything he says is true.   That with man, it seems impossible, or it is impossible. But with God, we know that all things are possible. So, appreciate the way you answered that.   And then also a follow up would be we heard that awful story of what happened with the physical safety when you're looking at physical abuse. But then, Stacey, would you recommend wives have the same boundaries? Are they taking time away to physically protect themselves if there's any type of abuse?   If there is financial abuse, let's say, are they given the same recommendations as somebody who is in an emotionally abusive relationship?   Stacey Womack: (38:13 - 40:49) Well, the emotional abuse is always there. You don't have any other forms of abuse without emotional abuse. So, our women, we talk about boundary setting and different boundaries they can begin trying.   But oftentimes the only boundary that actually works to be able to say for us to be able to make it, you need to go get help. And while you're getting help, we need to be separated so they're not focusing on one another. So not all of our women separate.   Some of the women try to work through it while he's still in the home. My experience is that it slows the process down, extremely slows the process down because they're still focusing on one another. And he's coming home and he's sharing with us how great the program is.   But then he's going home and he's angry and he's taking it out on her. So, it creates some unsafety for her. And I just want to say this because I think a lot of people don't understand that there's physical safety and then there's emotional safety.   And we downplay the emotional safety. But emotional safety is as important as physical safety. So, I have some pastors who think that if we share things like this, that we're going to be making victims.   That's not true. I don't relate to the books that are out there. You know, oh, yeah, I've experienced that.   It's not going to make victims. You either relate to it or you don't. But this emotional safety might mean needing to separate from that person.   Not because you fear their physical abuse when you haven't been physical. But a lot of our women say he's never been physical, but I'm fearful of him. And so in order for her to get some healing and some help while she waits to see whether or not he gets help and she's really hoping he will.   She needs that space. And so, yes, I think that in a lot of scenarios, separation is a key. And then we have some couples where the where the husband does is not willing to do the work he needs to do, but he's not controlling the finances.   So, they remain married but separated for the rest of their lives. Not very many couples can do that because most abusers are going to control finances. So, but that's why I was saying it's not our place to tell a woman to leave or to stay.   That's not our job. It's our job to walk alongside them when they seek God for what they should be doing and what boundaries they should be setting. And they can try a lot of different things before it gets to that point.   And it just there's no easy answer for this.   Laura Dugger: (40:50 - 41:05) It's very complex. Yes, it's very complex. But even when you say there's a lot of things they could try.   Could you give a few examples or is there a place on your website where they can go to get some ideas and some help for those earlier stages?   Stacey Womack: (41:06 - 43:43) Well, we talk about this in our journey class again, which is free. You can join at any time in our class on boundaries. And so, it depends on the severity of abuse that's going on.   But most women, when there has been physical abuse, will start off with things like and we talk about a boundary has to have a consequence. Otherwise, it's not really you can't. It doesn't work.   But these men are boundary breakers. So, a boundary would be like saying, if you continue to yell at me and call me names, I'm going to leave and go to my friend's house. So, there's the boundary and there's a consequence for breaking.   But then we also realize when we're talking to them that he may decide at some point he's not going to let you leave. So now he's blocking the door. So, then it might be, you know, if you're going to treat me this way, I'm no longer going to cook meals or do your wash.   And it usually works its way down to I'm no longer going to have sex with you. I'm not going to sleep in the same room with you. And once you get to that point, the only other thing you can do is do a physical separation with the heart to actually reunite.   That's what these women want. And some of our couples have been separated for three years. But the husband is like, let her head home.   And he's doing his work and they're interacting again. But he doesn't move back home for three years because he's committed to giving her whatever space and time she needs to heal. Because he recognizes that he's the one that's caused unsafety.   And so, what is three years if you can have a healthy relationship for the rest of your life? And so that's what we were looking for our men to do. It's like even if you're disappointed, if she's saying, I'm not ready for you to move back.   And you can say, I feel disappointed, but you know what? I get it. And whatever you need, I'm willing to do that.   That's accountability. That's humility. And really, they need to have other men who are mentoring them to hold them accountable.   And again, not a lot of people are taught this. And so having the right mentor even for this is really important. Even a right counselor for them to work with their childhood issues.   But those are some ideas for some boundaries. Boundaries always have to have consequences. But even if a woman gets a protection order or restraining order, most of those are violated.   So, we tell the women be prepared to call the police when he violates it by texting you or by sending you a card with money in it or putting flowers on your car. Or coming to the church service that you put in the restraining order that he wasn't supposed to come to. So, you need to be ready to hold him accountable because the abuser doesn't believe you're going to actually follow through.   Laura Dugger: (43:43 - 44:32) Do you love The Savvy Sauce? Do you gain anything when you listen? Did you know that the two ways we earn money to keep this podcast live is through generous contributions from listeners and from our paying sponsors?   That means we can promote your business and you're still supporting The Savvy Sauce. It's a win-win. Please email us today at info@thesavvysauce.com to inquire about pricing for sponsoring each episode. Thank you for your consideration.    Well, and what if somebody is listening right now and they're automatically assuming, well, this isn't happening to anyone I know and it's certainly not happening in our church. What would you like to directly say to them?   Stacey Womack: (44:33 - 45:40) I'd like to let them know that statistically one in three women experience domestic violence, stalking, or rape by an intimate partner. And the statistics in the church are no less than they are outside of the church. So, every church has families in their church who look like the perfect couple.   When I started leading a group in my own church, I was so shocked. I kept telling myself, stop being shocked when I have another woman privately come up to me and tell me that they were in an abusive relationship because they just, they were involved, and they were just leading Sunday school. And they were, just look like this beautiful family and you would never have known.   There was no way to know that this was actually going on. So, you know, the reality is that it's happening. We're just not aware of it.   It wasn't on my radar before God called me into this work. I didn't think it was affecting my life. I didn't think of much thought.   But the reality is I feel like it's worse now than ever and not necessarily more physical abuse, but just abuse in general, the misuse of things to gain control.   Laura Dugger: (45:42 - 46:18) Well, and I appreciate the way you helped give a paradigm shift. You offered this on page 36 in your book and you quote saying, “At ARMS, we do not believe God considers domestic violence and abuse an adult issue. Instead, we believe he sees it as child abuse. We are his children.”   So, Stacey, with that in mind, how does this clarify how we can respond appropriately, and in a Christlike manner, when someone does report abuse?   Stacey Womack: (46:20 - 47:51) Well, I think a lot of times when women actually have the courage to tell you what's going on, it's a very courageous thing to do. She's risking a lot by telling you.   So, we really need to listen carefully and believe her. And I'm thinking about how, you know, that I'm trying to think now. How did you word your question so I can answer it correctly?   If you think about that example you gave, if your child was being beaten, harassed and abused in school and came home crying, you wouldn't just sit in your chair and say, go back and pray harder and win them over by your quiet and gentle spirit. We would go down and we would ask the school, what are you doing about this? Who's doing this and what are you doing about it?   And if they didn't do anything, we wouldn't think twice to remove our child from that environment. But in these situations where you're working with two adults, she may not be ready to leave. She's just sharing with you that this is going on.   She actually is hoping you'll go talk to him so that you'll fix him. But that is not a safe thing for you to do. And she may not realize that.   I tell pastors that all the time. You don't, but you're not going to go to him to check out her story or go talk to him like she's asked you to. Instead, you're going to go, what can we do for you right now?   Let's get you some help. And there'll be a time where we can address things with him. But right now is not that safe time.   So, let's get you connected with an organization that can help you give you the resources that you need to begin your journey of healing and discovering what God wants you to do.   Laura Dugger: (47:52 - 48:07) That's good. And also, this is a tricky question, but what are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to those types of abuse that you shared with us?   Stacey Womack: (48:08 - 50:27) Sure. You know, I think God understood that divorce would happen. That's why it got written into the law.   And it says, “Because it was the hardness of hearts.” So, it wasn't God's design. It wasn't the way God wanted it to be, but that there was made allowances for this.   And when people and women are often quoted, God hates divorce. They're not really giving the whole scripture and Malachi in the amplified version. It says, “God hates divorce and marital separation and him who covers his wife, his garment with violence. Therefore, keep a watch on your spirit, that it may be controlled by my spirit, that you deal not treacherously and faithfully with your marriage mate.”   So, we actually got some really good articles that go in depth on the original Hebrew, that Malachi verse was written in there. But, you know, I do believe that someone is breaking the marriage covenant to love, cherish, lay his life down for when they bring abuse to the relationship.   Again, God would wish and hope that we would humble our hearts, not be stiff necked and submit to Him and what he's trying to teach us and grow us in. But He does not force us. And so that leaves women in these situations very little choices if their husband is unwilling to get the help that he needs.   So, I am all for divorce. And I know that that marriage is hard. And my husband and I have been married for 44 years and we've gone through our struggles.   And there are times that I thought this isn't going to work. But you know what? We hung in there because we knew that for us, because it wasn't an abusive situation, that we need to stay in there and work on it.   And we did. And we're so glad we did. So, believe me, I'm not promoting divorce.   I just know that there has to be a place and known for it because of sin in the world. And again, it's heartbreaking and it destroys not just individuals, families, but our society is being destroyed by the breakdown of the family. And abuse is one of the most insidious things.   It starts in the home and it's cyclical. So, it's passed on from one generation to the next.   Laura Dugger: (50:29 - 50:38) Well, so, Stacey, how can we become more aware of abuse that is happening all around us? And what can we do that's genuinely helpful?   Stacey Womack: (50:40 - 52:13) Well, I think getting the education, you know, in my book that on the front lines of abuse strategies for the faith community, just a little book. But has a ton of information in it is a good place to start. And I have some do's and don'ts in there.   But, you know, I think that when you might recognize someone's being in an abusive relationship by the way her husband or whatever is speaking to her. But she doesn't see it because most victims would never call themselves a victim of abuse because they don't relate to that at all. That's not how they would define it.   So, I think sometimes just privately sharing with them. No, that behavior was really abusive. And she may not like that.   She might even get upset. But I think just being honest with the fact that this is going on. And I encourage pastors to preach about abuse and really abuse oppression.   And the Bible has a whole lot to say about oppression. There's already sermons out there that they can pull from. I suggest pastors preach on it twice a year.   So, October's domestic violence awareness month. And then maybe run Mother's Day again, not on Mother's Day, but around Mother's Day. Talk about it again, not as a caveat to relationships where it's just mentioned in a sermon, but an actual entire sermon on this issue.   And I can promise you that the church gets the education they need. They don't have to be experts, but they need to know what resources are out there for them and they make it safe. Both men and women will come forward and ask for help.   So, we need just to be a listening ear and care and ask how we can help.   Laura Dugger: (52:14 - 52:29) I think that's a good practical encouragement that you've shared. And I want to add all of these links in our show notes. So, is there anywhere else that we can go to after this conversation to continue learning from you?   Sure.   Stacey Womack: (52:30 - 53:32) We have our website that has a ton of information on it, abuserecovery.org. So, there's just so much on there. We have blogs and we have all kinds of information that the faith community can download for free.   Whether you're just in the community or you're a church leader, there's all kinds of things you can download. We have a pastor's packet. There's just we'll give you other books to read that you can do more education around this again.   I know as my father being a pastor, that pastors are busy enough. We're not asking pastors to do more than what they're doing. We're just asking them to be educated and know where they can send their people that's safe, where they're going to get sound and supportive help.   And to just be open to looking at things from a little bit different perspective. But our website just has so much on it that they can get for free. And again, our women's intervention groups, our recovery groups are free.   Laura Dugger: (53:33 - 53:49) Thank you for sharing that. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so, Stacey is my final question for you today.   What is your savvy sauce?   Stacey Womack: (53:50 - 54:39) What is my savvy sauce? You know, when I think about how God called me into this ministry in the end, no matter what we do, I think it's about obedience to God. And so, this was not on my radar.   I would never have chosen it. And so, for me, it's about being obedient to what God has called me to do, even when it's hard and even when it's unpopular. And walking in that so that when I stand before God, I can say I did what you asked me to, to the best of my ability, even with all my flaws.   So that's really, I think, my heart is to be that way. Be a leader like Moses, who God says he was the most humble man who ever lived. I'd love to be like that with the heart of David and the boldness of Paul and on and on and on.   Laura Dugger: (54:39 - 59:13) So, yeah, I love that. Well, I told you before we pressed record that I have experienced so much fruit of the spirit from you already with your gentleness. And this is not the first time we tried recording.   We prayed together that God would do immeasurably more than all we could ever ask or imagine through this conversation, because we had so many technical difficulties and even had to reschedule the date for this. But Stacey, I'm so grateful you persevered because you are well-spoken and you tackle this extremely difficult topic with wisdom and grace. And so, I'm very grateful I got to learn from you today.   And I believe God's going to continue working through you, even for the saving of many lives. So, thank you for your work and thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.    One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Special Patreon Re-Release: Wholehearted Quiet Time with Naomi Vacaro   Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.    "So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things." Mark 6:32-34 (NIV)   **Transcription Below**   Questions and Topics We Discuss: How did your life with secret sin impact your connection with Jesus and what were some of those faulty beliefs you internalized that Christ later redeemed? How would you describe quiet time and its purpose? How does quiet time ripple out to effect everyone around us?   Naomi Vacaro is first and foremost a wholehearted follower of Jesus. She grew up as a daughter to missionaries in Outer Mongolia and then moved to Florida at the age of 18 to pursue a college degree. After graduating with a degree in graphic design, she worked as a wedding photographer and soon after felt led to create a journal called the Quiet Time Companion, along with an online ministry that would help Christians develop a daily habit of seeking Jesus. She now spends her time running the Wholehearted community and being a stay-at-home mom. She and her husband live in Florida with their son. Visit her online at wholeheartedquiettime.com or on Instagram.   At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.    Quiet by Naomi Vacaro   Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 150 Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh 259 God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:51) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.    Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at chickfila.com/East Peoria.    If you've been with us long, you know this podcast is only one piece of our nonprofit, which is the Savvy Sauce Charities. Don't miss out on our other resources.   We have questions and content to inspire you to have your own practical chats for intentional living. And I also hope you don't miss out on the opportunity to financially support us through your tax-deductible donations. All this information can be found on our recently updated website, thesavvysauce.com.   My guest for today is Naomi Vaccaro, and she has wisdom beyond her years that she articulates beautifully in her faith journey. She's humbly going to share some highs and lows, and she's able to pull out ways that the Lord has called her to live in the light. And she has practical suggestions for ways we can do the same.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Naomi.   Naomi Vaccaro: (1:53 - 2:01) Hi, Laura. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here and just can't wait to dive into all this amazing conversation.   Laura Dugger: (2:02 - 2:10) Well, likewise, I feel the same. And will you start us off by just giving us a glimpse of your journey to becoming a Christ follower?   Naomi Vaccaro: (2:11 - 4:04) Yeah, absolutely. So, my story is probably very similar to many other believers who grew up in Christian homes. I know I'm not the only one who probably has a similar testimony.   But I was showed the gospel a thousand times in a hundred different ways over the course of many, many years. So, my coming to faith was definitely a slow blossoming over a long period of time. My first really memorable encounter with the Lord was when I was about seven years old.   I remember I was walking in the backyard of our home in Mongolia, which is where I grew up as a missionary kid. And during that evening, there was just this particularly beautiful sunset. And I just remember looking at the clouds in the sky and just seeing that sun dip below the horizon.   And I just knew my seven-year-old heart knew that God was real and that he was present and he saw me and he just loved me. And that was the first time I remember actually acknowledging him personally and really just wanting to be in a relationship with him. So, I would say that was when my journey of faith really started.   That's when it took root in my own heart, this longing for eternity. And then my understanding of the gospel was definitely limited to what a seven year old could grasp at the time. So, my relationship with Christ and the way I understood his grace, it deepened and it strengthened over time.   But I do believe that it was in that moment that I became committed to start the journey. And then it was just slow growth from there.   Laura Dugger: (4:05 - 4:48) I love it. Everybody's story is so personal to them, and it never gets old hearing how Christ has wooed people to himself. But in your new book, you write on page 15, I'm going to quote you saying, “My mom and dad took their role as parents even more seriously than their calling as missionaries.”   If there was one thing they persistently taught us as kids, it was that spending time with Jesus was a necessary part of everyday life. And so Naomi, as a mom myself with a similar conviction to create a spiritually vibrant home atmosphere, I would love to learn, how did your parents actually do that?   Naomi Vaccaro: (4:49 - 8:11) Yeah, that's a great question. I'm a mom myself now, and ever since becoming a mom, this is the question I just revisited over and over. And I'm just so grateful to have had the example that my parents gave to me.   And that's really what they did. So, my parents, first and foremost, they taught by example. Every morning without fail, my mom and dad would be the first ones up and they would each spend time with the Lord in their own routine, their own unique rhythm.   And so, it's funny, because for many years, I really thought that every other adult Christian had Bible time in the morning, just like my parents did. I thought it was just the thing adults did. And it wasn't until later in life that I realized how rare and special it was to have parents who sought the Lord so diligently and consistently.   They weren't just missionaries on the outside, you know, pastor on the outside. They had a private devotion to the Lord that was so vibrant and so real. And there was just no hypocrisy there.   Also, on the more practical side of things, I just also had the good fortune of being homeschooled, which allowed my parents a lot of flexibility and creativity with our education. So, one thing that my mom would do is every morning at around eight o'clock after we had all had breakfast, we would gather in the living room together. We would break open hymnals and sing some songs.   We would learn from a passage in scripture, and my mom would lead that time. Sometimes my dad would. And then we would pray together.   And then my mom would read a book out loud to all of us for about 30 minutes or so. And so that daily time, I just remember that being one of the most special parts of my childhood. And it was so enjoyable.   And I really think that it took the concept of a quiet time or seeking the Lord as one of the first things you did every day. It just made that rhythm really normal in my mind. So even now, it seems weird not to start my day with some kind of routine that welcomes the Lord into my day.   And I really attribute that to my mom and my dad and the way they educated us. So, my parents, they taught by example, and they integrated these beautiful rhythms into our lives at a very young age. So, if you are a parent and you really want that to become a reality in your home, just start first by creating this rhythm in your personal life.   Kids practice what we do, not just what we teach. They can sense hypocrisy very, very easily. And so, you first just need to make sure that you are devoting yourself to the Lord privately.   And they will see that and it will impact them. And then some of the ways you can bring your kids into your quiet time rhythm with you is you could have them sit next to you and have them read their own children's Bible as you read your Bible. And set aside a few minutes to pray with them every morning.   There are so many ways that we can start cultivating this culture in our home. But I really do believe that it all starts with our own sincere private devotion.   Laura Dugger: (8:12 - 9:01) That's really helpful to hear. And I like that progression of it begins with us and our commitment to our relationship with the Lord and growing there. But that's also helpful to see it play out that they kind of fed you through the hymns and through the Bible reading, but then also transferred that responsibility on to you to pursue that as well as you got older.   Something that really stood out when I read your book was your humility and vulnerability. So, I'm wondering if you can share a little bit more of your journey now. And specifically, how did your life with secret sin impact your connection with Jesus?   And what were some of those faulty beliefs that you internalized and Christ later redeemed?   Naomi Vaccaro: (9:03 - 14:43) Yeah. So, first of all, I just want to say, you know, this is where life happens. This is where things get real when we uncover our own failure, our own shame, when we bring it into the light.   This is just this is where God works. He works with humility. And that's why we should not be afraid to deal with these topics.   And so, I'm so excited to share my own story right now because I hope it will encourage someone else who might be listening. And it's something that I think we do need to talk about more in the Christian community. So basically, when I was eight years old, I was so young.   When I was eight years old, I was first exposed to pornography and erotica. And after that encounter, a secret sin of sexual fantasizing and seeking out more erotic content developed in my life. And this sin, the secret sin, did major damage to my walk with Jesus for a long time.   First of all, that's really what sin does, right? It separates us from God when we walk in a way that goes against his design, his good, good design for us. It destroys, it separates, it hurts.   And that's what it did for me for a long time. However, because of the grace of Christ, sin can only separate us from God if we let it. And so, I, at the time, I really did let my failure separate me from the grace of Jesus because I didn't really understand that the gospel applied to me as an already born-again Christian who struggled with sexual temptation.   I thought that you became a Christian because of the gospel, Jesus on the cross, the resurrection, the Holy Spirit, etc., etc. But deep down, I also really thought that once I was through the door of the gospel, that the Christian walk became up to me. So, every time I stumbled and fell into any kind of sin, but especially lust, because that was what I was so, so ashamed of, I would feel absolutely devastated.   And this was more than just a righteous conviction because it's good to feel devastated over our sin. This was a fear that I had somehow lost God's favor, lost his love, and particularly lost my salvation. I questioned my identity in Christ every time I stumbled in this way.   So, every time I would seek out this content and just give in to this inner sexual fantasizing, I would avoid having a quiet time for a few days because I really felt like I somehow had to do a penance, that I had to prove to God just how sorry I was. And so, this secret sin and the guilt that it gave me, it really did drive me away from Jesus, which I'm sure it just broke his heart because that is the last thing you want to do when you fall into sin is run away from God. And what's so sad is that I kept this in a secret for years.   I was eight when it started, and I was 13 when I finally got up the nerve to confess to my mother. I had prayed many times and confessed this sin to the Lord many times, but I wasn't seeing progress. I was still struggling, and I knew, I knew for years he was telling me, Naomi, you need to confess this to someone else.   You need to confess this to your mom. And I was so afraid of telling her that I was sinning in this way. I felt so dirty.   I felt so trapped and so terrified of losing her good opinion and the good opinion of anyone who would find out because I often equated the good opinion of others to love, especially as someone who's just a natural born people pleaser. But that morning when I finally confessed as a 13-year-old, the love and the grace that my mother showed me, it was the greatest reflection of the gospel I had ever experienced in my life up to that point. My sin didn't drive her away from me.   It actually drew her in closer, and that was the last thing that I expected. She embraced me. She came alongside me, and she made it clear that I was not the first or the last Christian to struggle with the sin of lust.   And she made me understand that I was not alone. And so, her reaction, it really did show me this fundamental truth, that our sin is what makes us absolutely irresistible to the compassionate heart of Christ. He hates sin because our sin is killing us.   But instead of casting us aside and pushing us away, he draws near in order to heal us. Jesus rushes to the side of a repentant sinner every single time. And that is what I learned through that journey of secret sin, wrestling inwardly, and then finally confessing in obedience to the Lord, confessing that sin to my mom.   Laura Dugger: (14:44 - 15:05) Wow. Thank you for bravely sharing that journey. That is such an encouragement.   And if someone is relating to your story, or maybe they're in the midst of their own experience of harboring some other form of secret sin right now, and it's creating distance between them and God, what encouragement would you like to offer them?   Naomi Vaccaro: (15:07 - 17:00) Yeah, so just run to Jesus. It all starts there. Just don't wait another moment.   Pause this episode if you need to. Hit your knees. Cry out to God.   Sin, it kills. It destroys. It separates us.   And the way we overcome sin is not by muscling our way through in our own strength. I've tried that. It doesn't work.   We have to combat sin by taking up the sword of surrender. We surrender ourselves to God, and then it becomes his strength that carries us through, that sets us free. So don't wait to confess.   Confess every single failure that's weighing on your soul. It doesn't define you in Christ. You are set free from his work.   So don't carry that garbage around anymore. Just don't do it. Jesus is so ready to embrace you, and it really is a lie that your sin makes you too dirty to approach him.   Jesus took care of that once and for all on the cross. So just like you embraced the gospel when you first became a Christian, now just cling to the gospel as you battle sin as a Christian. And then you can just ask yourself, you know, is there someone else that the Lord wants to bring alongside you in this struggle?   There's a reason why we are a body. There's a reason why we don't do the Christian walk alone, and that's because sin can't survive in the light, which is Christian accountability and confession. So, you will just be amazed at what God can do when you confess your sin to him and you make it known to other believers.   Just walk in that humility and trust that God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble.   Laura Dugger: (17:01 - 19:50) And now a brief message from our sponsor. Did you know you can go to college tuition free just by being a team member at Chick-fil-A East Peoria? Yes, you heard that right.   Free college education. All Chick-fil-A East Peoria team members in good standing are immediately eligible for a free college education through Point University. Point University is a fully accredited private Christian college located in West Point, Georgia.   This online self-paced program includes 13 associates degrees, 17 bachelor's degrees and two master's programs, including an MBA. College courses are fully transferable both in and out of this program. This could even be a great option to complete your general education courses and then transfer to the college of your choice and save money in the process.   So, if you're looking for an affordable college option while simultaneously gaining valuable work experience and earning an income, Chick-fil-A East Peoria is the place for you. You don't have to go into debt to get a great education. To apply today, please go to Chick-fil-A.com/East Peoria and click on the career tab. You can also call the restaurant at 309-694-1044 to find out more. And if you aren't located near Chick-fil-A East Peoria, make sure you check with your local Chick-fil-A restaurant to see if they also participate in the Elevate program with Point University. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Well, it's amazing to think about intimacy because the very first building block of intimacy is honesty. And so, I think you're just laying out such a biblical view of how to walk in freedom and intimacy with God and others by confessing and saying out loud what we're struggling with. And I know that the enemy will try whispering to us and lying and twisting things saying that this will lead to something worse or lead to more bondage.   And yet your story reveals the truth that it actually sets us free. As we continue to walk through your journey, you next experienced euphoria from having a clear conscience. And you channeled your newfound energy into a spiritual discipline that you said you most wanted to improve, which was your quiet time.   So how would you describe quiet time and its purpose?   Naomi Vaccaro: (19:51 - 21:24) Yeah, so quiet time refers to the activities of Bible reading and prayer. And its purpose really is wonderfully simple and yet deeply profound. Simply put, having a quiet time is relating to God.   In any relationship, there needs to be back and forth communication, right? Listening and talking, receiving and sharing. So, when you become a follower of Christ, you are entering into a relationship with the Almighty God.   That is what Christianity is all about. So, reading the Bible is essentially listening to God share His heart with you. That's how you are getting to know the other being, the other person on the other side of this relationship.   And prayer is how you share your heart with God. God wants you to share about yourself. He wants to know you.   And just because He's God and He already knows everything doesn't mean He doesn't enjoy that intimacy with us. He wants to relate to us just like we would relate to anybody else. So of course, there are many other good reasons to read the Bible and pray.   But this really is the foundation of what having a quiet time is all about. It's how we cultivate and nurture our relationship with God Himself.   Laura Dugger: (21:25 - 21:31) And what would you say to someone who feels like their quiet time has become stale or boring?   Naomi Vaccaro: (21:32 - 23:20) So first, don't be alarmed. I get so alarmed when my quiet time becomes boring and I start second-guessing everything. But over time I've learned that this happens to everyone, and it doesn't mean you're no longer a Christian.   So just don't worry. Search your heart definitely and try to find the reason behind this season. There could be something more serious going on.   For instance, when I was walking through sin for many years, that was a huge issue that kept me from experiencing a lot of genuine delight with the Lord. So, there could be something like that that is causing trouble. Or it could just be that you are in a season that is draining your joy.   You could be walking through suffering, a significant suffering. And that should not be surprising to us that our circumstances and our suffering affect how we relate to God and the feelings we experience there. So, no matter what the reason is, the answer is the same.   Keep coming back to Christ. Even when it feels boring, I promise you the feelings will follow in time. And there are also some practical things that you can do to shake things up and make your quiet time a little more interesting if it's really just that simple.   For instance, you can bring worship music into your routine. I love worship music and that always sparks a lot of joy and just praise. You can also go on a prayer walk around your neighborhood.   You can start a new Bible study or a book. Just don't take your own lack of feeling too seriously. And just trust me that as you remain faithful in the discipline, the delight will follow in time.   Laura Dugger: (23:21 - 23:58) And I think that even ties into what you were saying earlier about confessing or just bringing things into the light. It's such a joy to get to do this in community. So maybe even sharing with your spouse, if that applies to you, or a friend or a loved one, if this is a struggle.   And I think they can also help shed light on what's going on. But you mentioned the word season. And so, let's take this from a proactive stance then.   If someone has a big life change coming up, like a move or a wedding or a new child, how can they prepare to adapt their quiet time to a new season?   Naomi Vaccaro: (23:59 - 26:10) Oh man, the seasons that you mentioned, each one of those have always affected my quiet time. Especially becoming a mom. Just shout out to all the moms out there.   So, I would just say, spend a good amount of time. If you see the season that is ahead of you, just spend a good amount of time praying over that season before it even arrives. Just trust that the Lord, He will give you the grace you need to transition into your new role.   And prepare your heart before the Lord to receive this sanctification, because that's what transition does. It reveals weakness in us. It reveals where we've maybe placed a lot of our hope and confidence in places other than Christ.   And so, walk into that sanctification confidently that the Lord is with you. And then just do your best when that season comes. Do your best to maintain your quiet time routine.   But don't worry too much if things get lost for a little while. It really does take time to regain our footing after a big transition. The main thing is to just not give up the habit altogether.   Just keep fighting for pieces of it as much as you can. And then overtime it will get easier. For me, it took me about six months to relearn my quiet time routine after I got married.   And after I had a baby, it took me a solid year before I became consistent again. It was really, really hard. And even now as a working mom, I still really struggle to find consistency.   So don't freak out. Don't linger on any kind of sense of failure. Just return to the Lord in whatever moments He provides.   And just know that His mercies are new every single morning. And just because you're struggling to have a quiet time in a new season of life doesn't mean that Jesus is not with you, that He's not walking with you and making you into more of His likeness. He is.   He still delights in you. He loves you. He has not left you.   He is still right there.   Laura Dugger: (26:11 - 26:24) I think that's such a real picture because it is a fight and it's worth the fight. And Naomi, how have you seen quiet time ripple out to affect everyone around us?   Naomi Vaccaro: (26:25 - 28:38) Oh man, I feel like I could talk about this one question for a long time because it really does affect everyone. It affects everything. Because when you think of what having a quiet time is, it is connecting us with the God of the universe.   And not only that, it is welcoming Him into our lives and making us more like Christ. So, when we do that regularly, consistently, there literally isn't anyone in our proximity who will not be positively affected by that. The more we are absorbing Scripture and engaging with the Lord in prayer about what's going on in our lives, the people in our lives, the things that weigh us down or lift us up, the more we do this and reflect Christ to the world around us, the more people will be impacted.   So, our marriages, we'll just start there. They will become so much sweeter as we lean on the love of Christ. Trust me, your spouse cannot be your ultimate fulfillment.   And when we look to our spouse to fulfill every single one of our needs, marriage becomes really hard. But the more we lean on our true source of joy and satisfaction, marriage actually becomes really, really wonderful. So, for the sake of your marriage, have a quiet time.   And the same is true for our kids. They are not meant to be the center of our universe. And they will feel so much more happy and secure as we find our joy in the Lord.   They cannot bear the weight of our worship. And so if you want kids who are just full of joy, then spend time with the Lord and trust him to take care of them. And then obviously just our neighbors, our coworkers, our friends, our relatives, everyone we encounter will feel the ripple effect of our own private devotion to God.   I truly do believe that one person who is faithful to seek the Lord on a regular basis will have an impact that resounds throughout eternity itself. I really, really do.   Laura Dugger: (28:39 - 28:49) And do you think it's ever possible to selfishly prioritize our allegiance to these spiritual disciplines above other priorities?   Naomi Vaccaro: (28:50 - 31:30) Yes. Absolutely. And this is something I do talk about in my book, and I share some content there that really impacted me when I was learning about flexibility in our spiritual disciplines.   So, I think it's really important to realize that having a daily quiet time is not a command in Scripture. It's not a sin issue if you don't have a quiet time. It's a relationship issue.   So, the actual function of Bible reading and prayer is not some kind of non-negotiable ritual that we perform. Ultimately, the Christian walk is about loving the Lord, our God, with all we have and loving our neighbor as ourselves. God will never ask us to compromise on either one of those.   He will never ask us to sacrifice one for the other. So loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength will also always look like loving our neighbor as ourselves. Sometimes it looks like changing a diaper instead of opening up that Bible study we're just dying to get into.   And sometimes it looks like running out the door to help someone in an emergency rather than having our regularly scheduled prayer time. Our spiritual disciplines need to be flexible enough to be interrupted. Otherwise, we are making the routine itself too important.   And I really believe the best example of this is Christ himself. There are multiple instances in Scripture where Jesus allows his prayer time with the Father or even his journey down the road to be interrupted by the needs of others. Jesus was always ready to stop and serve, even if that meant shifting his other plans.   Now we all have our own capacity, so that doesn't mean you always have to be rushing to this person and that person. It just means that you need to be willing to let go of your routines in place of the leading of the Holy Spirit. Wherever he wants us to go to love God and love others, that's what we need to remember.   And then just remember that quiet time is not the end goal in itself. That is not the ultimate end of the Christian life. Love for God and love for others really does go beyond daily Bible reading and prayer.   Sometimes our quiet time will need to be changed or postponed in order for us to love others the way God wants us to.   Laura Dugger: (31:31 - 32:42) I love scenarios that are both and, and you're laying that out for us, that quiet time both is important and its worthy of being prioritized and flexibility is important and Christ-like as well.    Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights? Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy! Another part of your book just made me smile when you were talking about whether you believe prayer and Scripture reading are non-negotiables, but you also invite readers to journal for a variety of reasons. And I love journaling as well.   But from your standpoint, will you elaborate on some convincing reasons to give journaling a try?   Naomi Vaccaro: (32:44 - 35:36) Absolutely. So, I am also an avid journaler. I have been journaling since I was about eight years old.   And over time, I really have just seen so many amazing benefits to journaling. Like you said, it's not a non-negotiable element to a quiet time. It's not absolutely necessary to journal.   Whereas I would say Bible reading and prayer are necessary because they are our modes of communication to the Lord. So, journaling really is more of a bonus element. But keeping a diary will always be something I recommend for several reasons.   So here are my main reasons why I recommend journaling. So, first of all, journaling really does help us process our emotions. We've got a lot of feelings rolling around inside of us.   And sometimes it is so good to just wrestle those feelings onto a page so that we can look them over, analyze them, process them, submit them to the Lord, and maybe understand why we are feeling a certain way and then what next steps we should take to address those emotions. So that's my first reason. Journaling really helps us process our emotions.   Also, I think most people understand that this is a huge benefit of journaling. But journaling really is a wonderful way to preserve our memories. There are so many stories I would never have remembered if I didn't write them down years ago.   And I just absolutely love, it gives me so much joy to go back through my old journals and read about events and what I thought about certain events that happened years ago. And at the time, those things seemed so big and important. But now they are just the sweetest memories that I get to pass down to my children, hopefully, and hopefully their children.   So yes, journaling also helps us preserve our memories. And then finally, I think the most compelling reason to journal is the way it helps us keep a record of God's faithfulness in our lives. So how many times do you and I pray over something super specific, something we are super worried about, and then that problem is solved.   The Lord provides, and the need is met. And then the next day, we kind of forgot all about it. We just move right along to the next worry.   I know that I do this all the time, and journaling has really helped me in this area. I get so caught up with now that I forget about all the dozens and hundreds of times that God has been faithful to provide and protect and comfort me in the past. So journaling is just such a good, practical way to deepen our faith as we record and remember how good God has been to us over time.   Laura Dugger: (35:36 - 35:56) And I even think the Bible encourages this in different ways when it's talking about writing this down or passing this on to your children. Or one of my favorites in the last part of Proverbs 3.21 says, preserve sound judgment and discernment. Do not let them out of your sight.   And so, I just echo all that you're saying.   Naomi Vaccaro: (35:57 - 35:58) Yes.   Laura Dugger: (35:58 - 36:08) When we consider the Holy Spirit's impactful role in our lives, how can we discern when we're being spirit-led versus flesh-led?   Naomi Vaccaro: (36:09 - 38:20) You know, what's so amazing about being a Christian is that we have been given the gift of the Helper, with a capital H, you know, the Holy Spirit who now dwells within those who belong to Christ. It's so amazing. So, if you look at yourself in the mirror right now, you can just know the Holy Spirit is looking right back at you.   It's pretty amazing. We get to walk every day hand-in-hand with the Holy Spirit. And the more we listen to Him and let Him guide us in our lives, the easier it will be to hear Him again.   And that's what we want. We want to be spirit-led people. So how do we do that?   The age-old question. So, one thing that we can always be certain of is that the Holy Spirit will never contradict the revealed will of God in Scripture. The Holy Spirit is a part of the Trinity.   They are all so connected in their purpose. They are one. And yes, the Spirit, He can work in our emotions, and He often does.   But the problem is, our feelings can be so tricky. And we always want to measure them against the Holy Word of God because that is where our source of truth is found. So, this really is the truest test for the leading of the Holy Spirit versus the leading of our flesh.   Our flesh will always be self-centered. And the Holy Spirit will always be Christ-centered. The Holy Spirit exists to magnify Christ, right?   So, as we look at Christ and adore Christ, then the Holy Spirit will grow stronger and stronger inside of us. So that's what I would encourage you to do. If you want to discern the difference between the Holy Spirit's leading and your flesh's leading, then really just start with studying God's Word.   Bring it into your home, your soul, your day-to-day life, and you will begin to discern the difference in no time.   Laura Dugger: (38:22 - 38:28) And how can we spur one another on to love and good deeds, especially in community?   Naomi Vaccaro: (38:29 - 40:15) So first, you need to be in community in order to spur one another on to love and good deeds, right? So, we really do need to start there because we're living in a time, especially in our country, I think around the world, where there is just a pandemic of loneliness and people are not living in community. So start by finding that community.   Find a local body of believers in Christ to do life with. And I don't just mean a Sunday morning service. Find people that you can see multiple times a week and start to get vulnerable and involved in each other's lives.   Start a prayer group together. Gather your kids and have a regular play date. Do game nights with the whole family.   Just think outside the box of Sunday morning. And after that, I just really believe that in order to love one another well, we need to bring it back to the whole topic of this conversation. We need to start with our own private relationship with God.   If this vertical relationship between God and us is out of whack, then our horizontal relationships with others will really just start to disintegrate. So, we need to begin with our own relationship with Christ and begin by praying for the people in your community as you spend time talking with Him. He will be the one to fill you with the love you need to then go and pour it out to the other members of your community.   And that is what spurs Christians on to love and good deeds. And it always has been.   Laura Dugger: (40:16 - 40:29) Well, Naomi, I'm enjoying this conversation. And if anybody wants to continue the conversation, where would you direct us online to find you and begin implementing these rhythms that you've taught us today?   Naomi Vaccaro: (40:30 - 41:09) Thank you, Laura. I've had such a great time talking with you, too. And I would just love to chat with anyone else who wants to come and start a conversation.   You can find me on Instagram at Naomi Vaccaro. And you can find my ministry, Wholehearted, where we focus on discipling Christians to have a daily quiet time. You can find that ministry on Instagram at WholeheartedQuietTime.   Also, our website is WholeheartedQuietTime.com. And that's where we have our blog and our online shop and a lot of free resources. So please come on by.   I would love to meet you.   Laura Dugger: (41:09 - 41:28) Wonderful. We will link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And you may be aware we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight.   And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Naomi Vaccaro: (41:28 - 41:51) Yeah, I love this. Savvy Sauce. There's a lot of things I could say, but when it comes down to it, my savvy sauce really is getting a good night's sleep.   I become a monster if I don't sleep enough. So, I need to get my rest. I cannot recommend it highly enough, people.   Get yourselves eight hours every night. Amen to that.   Laura Dugger: (41:51 - 42:17) That is wonderful savvy sauce. And maybe that's part of the reason and more so your connection with the Lord. But I just experience you as such a peaceful and kind and gentle person.   And I can hear all of the passion about this coming from you. So, thank you for the work that you're faithfully doing with Wholehearted. And thank you for being my guest today.   Naomi Vaccaro: (42:18 - 42:34) Thank you, Laura. I just feel so encouraged and so, so loved by God through this conversation. And I cannot wait to see what he is going to do in His people through your work, your podcast, and Lord willing, my book.   So may His will be done.   Laura Dugger: (42:35 - 46:36) Thank you so much, Naomi.    One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.