Podcasts about Central Illinois

In today’s deep dive, we’ll learn about what is coming to the Central Illinois area in the world of arts, culture and entertainment. 

On this week's episode of Out and About, Dr. Mae Gilliland of ArtsPartners of Central Illinois talks with Terri Gambetti, President of Pekin Main Street, about Pekin First Fridays — a festive summer series that is a hub of creativity.

In today’s deep dive, we'll bring you a conversation about how East Central Illinois' Congolese community is reacting to President Trump's travel ban.

Severe storms bring tornadoes and heavy rain to Central Illinois on Wednesday, June 18th and the hottest temperatures of the year are on the way. Chris, Molly, and Nathan come together to break it all down in this week's episode of Shootin' the breeze.

Greg and Dan talk with Bobby Parker, the chief operating officer of Peoria City Soccer, to discuss their upcoming game in Bloomington, IL tomorrow at 7:30 PM. They are facing Mexico's Atlas FC team, making it their first international series. This gives Bloomington, another part of Central Illinois, to experience this part of Peoria City. The team wants their fans to have this opportunity and have fun while watching. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Over the weekend, protests took over cities across Illinois and around the nation – under the banner “No Kings Day.” An Illinois Public Media News reporter who covered the rallies in downtown Urbana joins the program.

A look at the week in Central Illinois and across the world from Peoria's breaking news station, 1470 and 100.3 WMBD for the week of 6/8 - 6/24.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr. Rachel Ramesar was raised in Central Illinois. While in High School, she got a position in a mixed animal veterinary practice and decided that she would make veterinary medicine her career.She earned her DVM from the University of Illinois in 2000. She had been on a US Army scholarship during veterinary school, so she entered the Army as a Captain in the Veterinary Corps after graduation. She served for 3 years, then left the service and entered private small animal practice.She held positions doing relief work and working part time at a few clinics before settling at her current clinic in Harker Heights, Texas. She started her holistic journey by taking the Animal Chiropractic course at Parker University, and has since been certified in acupuncture, Chinese Herbal Medicine, and Food Therapy.In addition to her clinical practice, Dr. Ramesar is now teaching in the Animal Chiropractic program at Parker and is the Integrative Track Coordinator for the Southwest Veterinary Symposium.Please enjoy this conversation with Dr. Rachel Ramesar as we discuss her education, time in the military, holistic journey, and her professional activities outside of clinical practice.

Jeff highlights the upcoming "Our Stories Have Power" event with the West Central Illinois Recovery Oriented System of Care (ROSC) June 28th on the WRAM Morning Show.

In today’s deep dive, we’ll learn about what is coming to the Central Illinois area in the world of arts, culture and entertainment.

Chris, Molly and Nathan discuss recent social media chatter of incoming Derechos, summer heat safety tips and much more on this weeks episode of Shootin the Breeze!

June 11, 2025 - Visiting Instructor of Choral Music Education at Millikin University, Nate Widelitz, joined Byers & Co to talk about the Five Cities Baroque Festival that brings performances of 17th and 18th century music and educational events to Central Illinois communities. Listen to the podcast now! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On this week's Out and About, Dr. Mae Gilliland of ArtsPartners of Central Illinois chats with local composer David Getz to discuss "Ruth: The Musical". His original theatrical production returns to Five Points Washington on July 12 and 13.

A look at the week in Central Illinois and across the world from Peoria's breaking news station, 1470 and 100.3 WMBD for the week of 6/1 - 6/7.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In today’s deep dive, we’ll learn about what is coming to the Central Illinois area in the world of arts, culture and entertainment.

Chris, Molly, and Nathan discuss the smoke from Canadian wildfires, our recent and welcomed rainfall, and recent severe weather across the U.S.

On this week's episode of Out and About, Dr. Mae Gilliland of ArtsPartners of Central Illinois chats with Ray Flacko, one of the founding members of Peoria's Juneteenth Fest, about the 2025 event taking place Saturday, June 14 from 11:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. at John H. Gwynn Park.

Charlotte Alvarez is the executive director of The Immigration Project. With offices in Bloomington-Normal, Champaign-Urbana, and now Springfield, this nonprofit provides legal and social services to immigrants across 86 counties in Illinois. Alvarez discussed the realities behind the phrase “come the right way,” the challenges immigrants face in Central Illinois and how her team works to provide dignity to those navigating a complex immigration system.

Nate Widelitz is a singer, conductor, and educator. He is also the Founding Director of the Five Cities Baroque Foundation & Festival. He spoke with Community Voices about his music career, passion for teaching, and shares the story behind the foundation, which brings access to high-quality Baroque music to Central Illinois. Nate also previews what audiences can expect from the upcoming concerts, including featured pieces and performances. Learn more about the festival, including dates and locations here.

Nate Widelitz is a singer, conductor, and educator. He is also the Founding Director of the Five Cities Baroque Foundation & Festival. He spoke with Community Voices about his music career, passion for teaching, and shares the story behind the foundation, which brings access to high-quality Baroque music to Central Illinois. Nate also previews what audiences can expect from the upcoming concerts, including featured pieces and performances. Learn more about the festival, including dates and locations here.

In today’s deep dive, we’ll learn about what is coming to the Central Illinois area in the world of arts, culture and entertainment.  

Anna Palmer is a venture capitalist, serial entrepreneur and Central Illinois native. At the 2025 New Venture Challenge hosted by Innovate Springfield at the University of Illinois Springfield, Anna shared insights from her journey building and investing in startups, her perspective on what's hot in tech, and the challenges she faced as a co-founder of Boston Legacy FC. The conversated was moderated by Bruce Sommer.

On this week's episode of Shootin' the Breeze Molly heads to Bloomington to visit the State Farm Research & Innovation Lab, she tells us about the experience. We also discuss the upcoming anniversary of the deadly 2013 El Reno, OK tornado and get an update on where our stats stand for the month of May and where things are headed in June.

May 28, 2025 - Brett Swallow of Hickory Point Bank and Kelly Day of the Girl Scouts of Central Illinois joined Byers & Co to talk about Operation Cookie Share and how Hickory Point Bank and its employees are invested in organizations like Girl Scouts. Listen to the podcast now!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In today’s deep dive, we take you to a place in Central Illinois featuring peace and exposure to the Japanese culture for nearly 50 years.   

On this week's episode of Out and About, Dr. Mae Gilliland of ArtsPartners of Central Illinois chats with Laura Warren-Roberts of Fondulac District Library about “Music in the Park” — a free, family-friendly summer concert series held in East Peoria's Levee Park.

What's it like to hold a feathered friend in your hand? Lincoln Land Community College biology professor Tony Rothering knows the feeling. He spoke to Community Voices about bird banding in Central Illinois, and how local residents can take part as citizen scientists. He also explained how bird banding provides insights into avian life, the research conducted on the Saw-whet Owl and what may be behind the decline in bird populations.

In today’s deep dive, we take you into an international grocery store in Champaign and explore how the family running the shop journeyed from Vietnam to Central Illinois.

In today’s deep dive, we’ll learn about what is coming to the Central Illinois area in the world of arts, culture and entertainment.

Chris, Molly, & Nathan discuss the severe weather that impacted much of the Midwest this past week.

In today's deep dive, we'll listen to a conversation with writer and journalist Hua Hsu about how he understands Asian American history.

The show continues from Team Calhoun's as Beth Allen of Girl Scouts of Central Illinois and Jeff Raes of Hickory Point Bank preview the June 17 Operation Cookie Share, and Joe Malek looks ahead to the last weekend of May and the Little Flower Heritage Days.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In today's deep dive, we’ll learn about what is coming to Central Illinois in the world of arts, culture and entertainment.

On this week's episode of Out and About, Dr. Mae Gilliland of ArtsPartners of Central Illinois chats with Shannon Cox, Executive Director of the Peoria Art Guild, about "Art Without Boundaries." This bold new initiative provides free arts education to all youth under 18 across central Illinois, removing financial and transportation barriers.

Chris, Molly, and Nathan talk about the landspouts that touched down in Central Illinois on Tuesday and the upcoming risk of severe storms on Thursday and Friday. 

In today's deep dive, we’ll learn more about what is coming to Central Illinois in the world of arts, culture and entertainment. 

Your Local Weather Authority now brings the Shootin' the Breeze podcast to video! Chris, Molly, and Nathan discuss a variety of topics including ongoing NWS staffing vacancies, latest drought conditions, and the weather pattern that is on the way next week.

Today on the show Lisa interviews Ashley Stegeman & Chad Manbeck. Ashley is the Director of Church Engagement and Partnerships at Stadia. Chad is the Lead Pastor at Richwoods Christian Church in Central Illinois. Today's episode is full of specific information about Stadia's Vision Trips. You don't want to miss this information or the surprising way that Chad's trip ignited his next steps in being part of multiplying churches for the next generation.

On this week's episode of Out and About, Dr. Mae Gilliland of ArtsPartners of Central Illinois chats with Maestro George Stelluto of the Peoria Symphony Orchestra about the final concert of their 127th season, "Star Crossed Letters."

In today’s deep dive, we’ll learn about what is coming to Central Illinois in the world of arts, culture and entertainment.

Kathy and Bob Best are siblings who grew up in the newspaper business. Their parents owned a local paper in Sullivan, Ill., and although they have taken divergent paths, they both continue to play a role in sharing news. Kathy is the director of the Howard Center for Investigative Journalism at the University of Maryland Philip Merrill College of Journalism, and Bob is a photographer and the pressroom manager at Paddock Publications in Central Illinois. They spoke to Community Voices about their family's history, their careers and the state of journalism.

On this week's episode of Out and About, Dr. Mae Gilliland of ArtsPartners of Central Illinois talks with Jeremie Draper, owner of J. Draper Glass, about a heartfelt way to celebrate the women in our lives.

261. Edible Theology with Kendall Vanderslice   Kendall's Website   John 6:35 NIV "Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty."   **Transcription Below**   Kendall Vanderslice says "Yes, before you ask, that is my true name."   Kendall is a baker and writer whose best thinking occurs as she works dough between her hands; scribbles down thoughts on pieces of parchment dusted in flour, until she can parse them out later before her keyboard. When she embarked on a career as a pastry chef, she found that her love of bread transformed the ways she read Scripture. Fascinated by God's use of food throughout the arc of the Gospel, she merged her work in the kitchen with academic study of food and theology.   As a graduate of Wheaton College in Illinois (BA Anthropology), she began engaging questions of food and faith. Interested in commensality—or, the social dynamics of eating together—she studied food at Boston University (MLA Gastronomy). Her thesis on church meals sparked a range of theological questions, leading her to Duke University where she wrote a thesis on the theology of bread (MTS). In 2018 she was named a James Beard Foundation national scholar for her work on food and religion.   She lives in Durham, North Carolina, with her beagle, Strudel, her sourdough starter Bread Astaire, and her brood of hens: Judith Jones and the Three Gourmands.   Questions and Topics We Cover: You've studied so much about food and theology . . . are there any favorite lessons or resources that you still think about today? Is there any other science in the bread baking that is fascinating because it also has a richer, deeper spiritual meaning? What's one recipe in the book you're especially excited about?   Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 47 Relationships and Opportunities that Arise from Using Your Gifts with Founder of Neighbor's Table, Sarah Harmeyer   Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 15 The Supernatural Power Present While Gathering at the Table with Devi Titus Practical Tips to Eating Dinner Together as a Family with Blogger and Cookbook Co-Author, Rachel Tiemeyer Experiencing Joy, Connection, and Nourishment at the Table with Abby Turner Fresh Take on Hospitality with Jaime Farrell   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Dream Seller Travel, Megan Rokey   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:22) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Do you love to travel?   If so, then let me introduce you to today's sponsor, Dream Seller Travel, a Christian-owned and operated travel agency. Check them out on Facebook or online at DreamSellerTravel.com.    We were one of those families who joined in the COVID trend of baking our own bread.   And so, I was fascinated even years later when I came across my guest for today, Kendall Vanderslice. She's an author and the founder of Edible Theology. And I've always appreciated different verses being brought to life, even things that we interact with every day, such as salt and yeast.   But God has richer meanings for all of these. And so, I can't wait for Kendall to unpack these in our conversation today. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kendall.   Kendall Vanderslice: (1:20 - 1:22) Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.   Laura Dugger:  (1:23 - 1:30) Would you mind just starting us off by sharing a bit about your background and what led you to the work that you get to do today?   Kendall Vanderslice: (1:31 - 3:46) Sure. So, I have always loved baking. I always, you know, when I was a child, but especially once I was in middle school and high school, I had a lot of anxiety.   And so, when I just ever, anytime I needed to work through any sort of scope of emotions, I would always turn to the kitchen. Working with my hands became this way to sort of ground me and help me find calm in the midst of sort of my mind just buzzing. I was also one of five kids.   So, it was like after everyone had gone to bed and the kitchen was silent, was the only time there was quiet in my house. And so that was kind of always became the source of calm and grounding for me. And so, then when I graduated high school and was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, once again, I turned to the kitchen as a way to try and process what I should do.   And long story short, over time, I realized, oh, maybe actually this work of baking is the work that I am called to do. And so, I ended up taking a very circuitous path to get there. I took a gap year after high school.   I went to undergrad and studied anthropology in college. And in that time, learned that I could, my love of food and my love of the kitchen, I could examine not just in the practice of cooking, but through an anthropological and historical lens, looking at how food shapes community and shapes culture and how culture shapes the foods that we eat. And so, from there, I went and worked in professional kitchens.   But I had all these historical, cultural, theological questions kind of buzzing around at the same time. And, you know, I would go from my work at the bakery on Sunday morning. I would rush from work to church and I would receive communion each week with bread dough still stuck to my arms.   And I started to question, what does this bread that I spend my whole morning baking have to do with this bread that I receive at the communion table? And so that just unlocked a whole new path of what I could do with bread and with my baking beyond just in the kitchen and larger understanding how it shapes our awareness of who God is and how God is at work in our lives and in our communities.   Laura Dugger:  (3:47 - 3:58) Wow, that is incredible. And even today, do you want to share a few of your offerings? Because edible theology was a new concept to me, and it's just fascinating what all you have going on.   Kendall Vanderslice: (3:59 - 5:31) Yeah, absolutely. So, my primary program is that I teach a workshop called Bake and Pray. And so, this is a workshop where I teach people how to bake bread as a form of prayer.   So, we look at the ways that bread is at play throughout the narrative of Scripture, kind of what it is that God is using, why it is that God is using bread as the storytelling device in the narrative of Scripture, and why Jesus would give us bread at the center of Christian worship. But then at the same time, we're learning how the actual practice of baking bread can be a way to connect with God, to find rest and to understand God's presence with us in a very tangible form. So, with that, I also have a handful of books.   Most recently, I released a book called Bake and Pray. It's sort of this workshop in book form. It's a collection of recipes, but also a collection of liturgies, so that you have the tools you need to make your time in the kitchen a time of prayer. I call it a prayer book meets cookbook.    But I also have a handful of other resources, a Bible study or a small group study called Worship at the Table, where it's actually helping people gather around the table and understand how God is at work through the table. And I have a podcast that it was a limited run.   There are 30 episodes called Kitchen Meditations. They are short meditations to listen to while you cook, while you're in the kitchen. So, you can understand the food that you eat more fully and also understand how your time preparing it can be a time of worship.   Laura Dugger:  (5:31 - 5:50) I love that. And there's so much to unpack. But let's just start here with all the things that you've studied with food and theology and gone to school for years and put this into practice.   Are there any favorite lessons that stand out and are maybe ones that you still think about today?   Kendall Vanderslice: (5:51 - 6:57) Well, you know, one of my favorite books that helped shape my understanding of food is a book that was written in the 1960s by an Episcopal priest named Robert Carr-Capin. It's a book called The Supper of the Lamb. This book is just a delightful book to read.   I think everybody should read it. Robert Carr-Capin was he was an Episcopal priest, but he was also a food writer and he also was a humor writer. He and his wife wrote a satirical column together.   And so, The Supper of the Lamb is kind of the culmination of all three. It is this beautiful reflection on a theology of food in the table, but it is hilarious as well. And so, it is written as instructions to host a dinner party that is all built around preparing lamb for eight people in four different ways.   And so, it's reflections on kind of, you know, this revelation, the imagery in the book of Revelation on the marriage supper of the lamb, But then taking that to be a very liberal dinner party that he hosts in his home. And it will forever change the way that you think about food and think about the table and think about how God cares about food.   Laura Dugger:  (6:58 - 7:13) Wow, that's interesting. And even a piece of that that you had highlighted before is community, that food draws us together in community. Are there any lessons or reflections you have on that topic as well?   Kendall Vanderslice: (7:14 - 9:03) Yeah, I mean, so I spend my days traveling the country and visiting churches and eating meals with strangers all the time. This is such a central part of my work. So, my first book was a study of churches that eat together as their primary form of worship.   And so, I had the opportunity to research 10 different churches across the country and look at how does this practice of eating together regularly shape their understanding of community, but also shape their understanding of church and shape their understanding of worship. And what I saw in that practice of traveling and eating with all of these churches was that communities that were built around the table, where their primary rhythm of gathering was this practice of eating together and talking together and dialoguing together. It created such resilience within these communities as they faced conflict and tension within them that their commitment to eating together, but then their understanding of these community meals as being intrinsically connected to the communion table, the meal of bread and the cup that they also shared, it shaped their ability to have conversations and wade into hard topics that communities might otherwise try to say, you know, kind of avoid, because what they believed was that, you know, the table that we gather at regularly is a place that can kind of manage and hold on to those tensions.   And it's a place where these hard conversations can arise. But also at the end of each of these meals, we remember that we are going to share the bread and the cup together and that God has told us that we have been made one in the body and blood of Christ. And so, we have a responsibility to care for one another, even as we argue and disagree and have a really, you know, dig into these hard conversations.   Laura Dugger:  (9:04 - 9:58) That is beautiful. And I think of so many things when you say that. I'm in the book of Acts right now, my quiet time.   And so, the early churches, they were breaking bread together daily. You see that as part of the impact, the outflow that came from that. And then just, I think, gratitude as you share, because I wasn't a follower of Jesus growing up.   Our family went to church. And by the time I was in high school, all of my family were believers, including my siblings. I was the last one.   But the church that we went to, we shared a meal together every Sunday. And those relationships are long lasting. Then you hear about what people are actually going through.   It's such a natural way to dive deeper into that fellowship. And so, I love that you've traveled around and studied this. And I'm also curious if you've connected with one of my past guests, Sarah Harmeyer with the Neighbors Table.   Kendall Vanderslice: (9:59 - 10:03) I am familiar with her work, but I have never actually connected with her.   Laura Dugger:  (10:04 - 10:09) OK, you two. I'll link her episode in the show notes, but I think you two would have a lot of fun together.   Kendall Vanderslice: (10:09 - 10:14) Oh, great. Great, great. I know I've seen some of her tables on.   She's the one who builds tables. Is that right?   Laura Dugger:  (10:14 - 10:15) Yes. Yes.   Kendall Vanderslice: (10:15 - 10:19) Yes. OK. I have seen her tables on Instagram, and they look just absolutely beautiful.   Laura Dugger:  (10:19 - 10:37) I love it. Well, I'd also like to talk about your most recent book, because there's one part where you talk about the sacred language of bread. And I'd love for you just to walk us through some significant scriptures that highlight bread throughout the Bible.   Kendall Vanderslice: (10:37 - 19:43) Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the reasons that I love to think of bread in terms of a language itself is because so often we think of our faith as being something that happens predominantly in our minds, that it is the things we believe about God and the words that we say to God. And it becomes this very sort of mental exercise of worshiping God in our heads.   And we forget that the rest of our bodies and the rest of our lives are a part of how we know God as well, that we were created in these human bodies with all of these senses. And it's only through these senses that we get to know the world around us. And it's in getting to know this creation around us that we get to know our creator as well.   And so when we think of our faith as happening something predominantly in our minds, then when we have these moments where we don't feel like God is present, or we feel like we don't hear from God, or we just don't have the energy to, you know, to read scripture every day, or we feel like we, you know, I'm just like praying and praying and praying, and I've just exhausted the words I have to say. Then it's easy for us to feel like we've been abandoned by God, that we're in this sort of spiritual dark place. But Jesus, he calls himself the word, but, you know, Jesus is the word that was present with God in the beginning.   But Jesus also calls himself the bread of life. And Jesus identifies himself as something deeply tangible. And he offers his own body to us in the form of bread at the communion table.   And so, Jesus is telling us that Jesus is present with us in this very tangible form, something that we can mix together with our hands, something that we can taste on our tongues, something that we can feel in our bellies as we digest it. That Jesus is telling us, like, I am with you in this deeply tangible way. And if you don't feel my presence, and if you don't, you know, hear what I am telling you, or you don't feel like I am listening to you, know that you can eat this bread and have this very tangible reminder that I have promised to remain present with you and to remain faithful to you.   And so, the ways that we see this at work in Scripture, once we understand that, you know, bread is not just a metaphor, that bread is actually something very physical and tangible, a way that God speaks to us, I think it changes the way that we see bread show up in Scripture. That it's not just a handy metaphor that shows up every, all over the place in the Bible, but that Jesus is actually, that God is actually doing something through bread itself.    So, the very first place that we see bread appear in Scripture is as early as Genesis 3:19, “It is by the sweat of your brow that you will eat your bread until you return to the ground, for from it you were taken, from dust you come, and to dust you will return.” So, prior to this point in Genesis, we have the creation accounts, we have, you know, that God has created the garden, placed humanity in the garden to tend to this creation, to care for it. And they are intended to, you know, they are nourished by the fruits of these trees, they delight in God by delighting in God's creation.   And God gave them just one restriction, which was a restriction on what they could eat. And so, in Genesis 3:19, we know that they have failed to honor this restriction that God has given them. And we are now learning the ramifications of that fall.   And one of those ramifications is that the soil is going to sprout forth thistles and thorns. That we will no longer just be nourished by the fruits of the trees, but that we will have to labor in this soil. We will have to labor against a creation that works against us in order to have our nutritional needs met.   But at the same time, God offers us this gift, that it's by the sweat of your brow, you will eat your bread. Our bread, you know, doesn't just grow from a tree. The humanity was probably not eating bread in the garden.   But in this offering of bread, that it's by the sweat of your brow, you will eat your bread. Humans are being told, yes, we will have to labor in the soil in order to nourish ourselves. But also, we are being invited to participate with God in the transformation of creation into something really delicious as well.   So, bread is, at the same time, both this picture of the brokenness of creation and yet also the goodness of God. This blessing, this gift from God in the midst of a broken creation. The production of bread, historically, has required a lot of work.   It requires months and months of laboring in the soil to grow wheat, harvest wheat, thresh it, and then grind it into flour. Turn that flour into dough, gather firewood to heat up an oven, and then turn that dough into bread before finally being able to eat it. So, humanity has long known that it is, you know, there is this deep, this incredible amount of labor required to make bread.   And yet also, bread contains almost all of the nutrients that humans need in order to survive. We can live off of just bread and water alone for a very, very, very long time. And in fact, many humans throughout most of human history have lived off of just bread and water for a very, very, very long time.   So then when we see bread show up in other places in scripture, we see it show up as this picture of God's miraculous provision for God's people. We see it show up as a sign of God's presence with God's people. And we see it as a sign of God's promises to God's people that God will continue this work of restoration until we have this imagery of this renewed creation in the book of Revelation.   So, one picture of that is in this provision of manna for the Israelites in the desert. You know, I think oftentimes for us, we read this story and we think the miracle is like, well, I don't know about you, but I've never opened my front door and had bread strewn across my lawn that I could just go out and gather. But we can still picture just walking into a grocery store and having a whole aisle of bread to choose from, right?   For us, the miracle seems like it just appears out of nowhere, but it doesn't seem all that crazy to just have a bunch of ready-made bread available to you. But for the Israelites, the work of making bread would have been nine months or more of labor between growing wheat, harvesting it, turning that wheat into flour, flour into dough, dough into bread. That's work that was not possible while they were wandering in the desert.   And so, when God is providing this miracle of manna, all they have to do is go out every single morning and gather, and they have to trust day after day after day that God is going to continue to provide. So, then we see a mirror of this in the story of the feeding of the 5,000. Once again, I think the miracle to us oftentimes feels like, you know, well, I've never seen five loaves capable of feeding 5,000 plus people.   But still, we can picture a Costco aisle of bread that probably has enough bread to feed 5,000 people. Just the presence of bread enough for that size crowd doesn't seem all that miraculous. But for the crowd who was gathered on the hillside with Jesus, they would have had a much closer awareness of just how much work was required to grow enough, in this case, barley.   One of the accounts says that it was barley bread. So, to grow enough barley to make enough bread to feed this crowd. And at the very least, in Mark's account of the gospel, we see a very direct link to work and how much work would be required to feed this crowd.   Because in the gospel of Mark, it says that it would take more than half a year's wages to buy enough bread to feed this crowd. So, this distinct connection between labor and hard work in order to feed, to provide the bread for these people. But Jesus circumvents that labor required to either make the bread or buy the bread and just miraculously provides these five loaves to feed 5,000 plus people.   So then on the night before his death, Jesus takes, I think, this imagery one step further. It is not just the labor of making bread that Jesus circumvents in his provision of bread for his disciples. He offers bread to his disciples and says, “This is my body that is broken for you.”   Jesus is circumventing the very work of defeating the curse of sin and death. He has taken the labor of defeating sin and death onto his own body. And he's offering that body back to his disciples and onto anyone who remembers Him in this meal of bread and the cup.   But he's offering to us His body as in the form of bread, as this picture of the labor that Jesus has taken on, the curse that Jesus has taken on so that we can then live in freedom. And so, we're still currently living in this sort of in-between time where we know that Jesus, that Christ has died, that Christ is risen, and we are still awaiting the day when Christ will come again. We're still awaiting this imagery in the book of Revelation where creation is restored.   And I believe our relationship to bread will purely be one of delight and joy and freedom. But right now, we do still experience that brokenness of creation in relationship to bread. But also, bread is still a way in which we can know God, in which we can trust God's promises to us in this very tangible form in which we can believe that God is with us, even when we don't feel it.   Laura Dugger: (19:43 - 22:17) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Do you have a bucket list of travel destinations? Or maybe you have a special event coming up like a big anniversary, a honeymoon, or even just that first trip to Europe?   If so, you need to call Dream Seller Travel. Dream Seller Travel is located in Central Illinois, but works with clients all across the USA. Whether you're wanting to plan a large family get-together someplace tropical, or take a cruise with your family, or maybe you want to explore the history and culture of a European town, regardless of the trip, Dream Seller Travel is there to assist you with your planning needs.   From the customized trip design, and the ideas through the small details and the preparations before the trip, and even while traveling, Dream Seller Travel is there with you every step along the way, making it seamless and stress-free. Dream Seller Travel can work with your travel plans as you have laid them out, or they will customize a trip for your requests. In most cases, there's absolutely no service fee for this work.   Instead of booking online and being the one to deal with your airline schedule changes or the sudden change in country entry requirements, or the hotel that looks beautiful but is really under construction, call a professional. Let them deal with the problems that arise while traveling so you can just enjoy the trip. Dream Seller Travel has been planning dream trips since 2005 to amazing destinations such as Alaska, Italy, Hawaii, Canada, the Caribbean, United Kingdom, Germany, Switzerland, France, South Africa, Iceland, and more.   Where do you dream of going? You can reach out to Dream Seller Travel at 309-696-5890,  or check them out online at DreamSellerTravel.com. Thanks for your sponsorship.   In line with your brand of edible theology, I'd love to go further into the scripture. That was so fascinating. I feel like you're so succinct in the way that you put that all together.   So, I kind of want to do a deeper dive into a couple of the key ingredients of bread and then have you share their significance both in contributing to food, but also their significance for our own lives. Absolutely. Let's just begin with salt.   Will you share the scripture and insight into salt?   Kendall Vanderslice: (22:18 - 23:20) Yeah. One of the things that I love about salt, I think oftentimes, especially here in America, we have a sort of distorted understanding of the role that salt plays in our food. Oftentimes, we treat table salt.   We usually have table salt that you just add onto your food after cooking it. Maybe you add a little bit of salt while cooking, but for the most part, you just sprinkle on table salt after. And it almost is treated as this kind of added flavor.   But salt actually should not be this added flavor at the end. Salt should be incorporated into the cooking process because salt opens up our taste receptors on our tongues, and it opens up the flavors in the dish. So, salt actually should not be the predominant flavor that we taste.   Salt should be the thing that allows us to taste everything else. And I think when we understand salt in that form, it should reframe our understanding of what it means to be the salt of the earth or to be salt and light in the world. What does it mean that salt is not the thing that itself gets tasted, but salt is the thing that opens up the flavors of everything else around us?   Laura Dugger:  (23:20 - 23:30) Kendall, can you take that even a step further? What does that practically look like for believers really living as salt of the earth?   Kendall Vanderslice: (23:34 - 24:26) I think one of the great joys of the ways that these metaphors at work in Scripture is that we get to continually explore and see what that means for us and where God might be calling us. But I do think that being aware that to be the salt of the earth is to help pull out the best in the communities around us, to pull out the best in the people around us, is just this really beautiful picture of how I think God asks us to work in community. But our job is not necessarily to be the strong presence.   Our job is not necessarily to make sure everyone knows that we are present, but instead our job is to identify and build up and pull out the best parts of the people around us in the communities that we are in.   Laura Dugger:  (24:27 - 24:56) That's so good. I love how you shared that because for me, as you were unpacking it, I was just thinking that we as the salt, when you taste it, you don't want to think, oh, that's salt. You want, like you said, to open it up to others.   And so that's our purpose is to reflect and glorify Jesus and to point to him. So, I'm sure there's countless meanings. Will you also do the same thing and share the significance of yeast?   Kendall Vanderslice: (24:57 - 29:44) Yeah, sure. So, yeast is, you know, also a fascinating, fascinating thing. And we are only really just beginning to understand sort of the microbial world and the role that it plays in our lives, in our bodies, in our world.   And so, it's opening up entirely new understandings of how yeast is at work in scripture. One thing that we have to bear in mind is that the writers of scripture did not actually know what yeast was. We were only able to identify the microbes that are yeast and bacteria in the last 150 years.   And so, prior to Louis Pasteur, humans didn't know what yeast was. They only knew the reactions of yeast. You know, you saw if I mix together, you know, this, if I let this flour and water sit, it comes back to life and I can mix that into more flour and water and it can become bread.   You know, I can mix it in with a lot of water and a little bit of yeast and some hops and it becomes beer. I can mix it in with grapes and it becomes wine. So, we see the reactions, but don't necessarily know what it is that is responsible for those reactions.   So, it is fairly new that we have this, you know, in the scope of human history, it's fairly new that we have this understanding of what are the actual kind of little critters that are involved in this process. And so, I have a really dear friend who she studies theology of the microbiome. So, a lot of her research is all based around, you know, how does this emerging research on yeast and bacteria shape our understanding of what it means to be human?   And so then how does that shape the ways we read in scripture, both passages about yeast and also about what it means to be human? And so it is, I think there's just, it's a field that is ripe for exploration and we are only beginning to scratch the surface of all the beautiful imagery that's at play here. But one of the things that I find most fascinating is that leaven or yeast, it is used as a metaphor for two different things in scripture.   In one passage, it is used as a metaphor for the kingdom of heaven, the parable of leaven, the kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman mixed into three measures of flour until it leavened the whole batch. But apart from that, yeast is always used as an image of sin, the ways that sin works through community. We have the passage about the leaven of the Pharisees.   I believe there are a few others as well. So oftentimes leaven is used as this picture of sin and the ways that sin sort of multiplies and works through communities. But at the same time, it's this picture of the kingdom of God, that it's this little bit of yeast that slowly multiplies and through its multiplication, it transforms the entire community.   It seems like a strange sort of tension that why would we use the same thing as a picture of both the kingdom of heaven and a picture of sin? And I think it makes more sense when we understand a sourdough culture. So, a sourdough culture is a culture of bacteria and yeast that is used to leaven bread, to raise bread.   So, we all have wild yeast and bacteria living in the air, on the surface of our skin, on the surface of everything around us. This wild yeast and bacteria is what makes the world go round. It's what makes our brains function.   It's what allows our bellies to digest food. It is what sort of makes everything work. And there is always this presence of both pathogenic bacteria and also beneficial bacteria.   That is true within our bodies. That's true sort of all around us. It's true in the sourdough culture that there is always the presence of pathogenic bacteria, but there is also the beneficial bacteria.   And so, to maintain a healthy sourdough starter, you have to feed it regularly. And as long as you feed it regularly and maintain its health, that good bacteria is going to keep the pathogenic bacteria in check. It's when you start to starve that starter that the pathogenic bacteria gets stronger and it overtakes the good bacteria and your sourdough starter goes bad.   And so, I think that's a really beautiful way to think about both how the kingdom of God works and also how sin works in our communities. We live in a broken creation. Sin will always be present.   But when we are digging ourselves, like when we are staying grounded and rooted in scripture, when we're staying grounded and rooted in church community and worship and prayer, when we are maintaining these healthy communities that are rooted to God, then we're able to help keep that pathogenic bacteria, that sin in check. But it's when we do not that it can start to take over and it can spread through a community just as quickly and easily as the kingdom of God can also spread through a community.   Laura Dugger:  (29:45 - 29:58) You just have brilliant answers. Is there any other science in the bread baking that is also fascinating to you because it has a richer, deeper spiritual meaning?   Kendall Vanderslice: (29:58 - 32:22) One of the things that I love, I oftentimes lead these bread baking workshops for groups of leaders, especially church leaders or faith leaders who are oftentimes having to manage just large groups of people where they're constantly facing internal conflict. I don't think anyone who leads a group of people has managed to bring together the people that never have any kind of disagreement. One of the things that I love about bread is that inherent to the structure of bread is tension.   The backbone of bread is this protein called gluten that is made up of two different proteins called gluten and gliadin. Gluten and gliadin have two opposing qualities to them. One likes to stretch and stretch and stretch.   It's what's called the elastic quality. One likes to hold its shape, what's called the plastic quality. When these protein strands unravel, they begin to form bonds with one another and they create this network, this protein network.   That protein network is what captures the carbon dioxide that the yeast releases and that allows the dough to both grow while also holding its shape. The strength and the structure of our bread is fully reliant on tension between these two opposing qualities, these two opposing needs. In order to build that tension in a way that brings strength to the bread, it has to be constantly balanced with rest.   The gluten will let you know when it's starting to get tired. If you don't give it time to rest, then it will just fall apart. It will start to break down on you.   This is something that I think so many of our communities really can learn from right now. That tension is good, that our differences, that diversity in our communities is our source of strength. When these differences rub up against one another and they help expand our understanding of the people around us, our differing needs, our differing convictions, our differing desires, our differing hopes, that can be a source of strength in our communities.   Also, we need to understand when it's time to step away and take time to rest before leaning into those differences even further. I love that bread then is itself this element that Jesus gives us as the sign of our unity in Christ, because it is this picture of our differences coming together and making us one even in our difference.   Laura Dugger:  (32:23 - 32:39) All of this from bread, it's just incredible. Then I even think you write about temperature and scoring the bread. Is there anything else?   We won't get to cover all of it, but any other scientific findings that have been really exciting?   Kendall Vanderslice: (32:40 - 33:33) I think there is so much in bread. I like to say that bread is incredibly simple and infinitely complex. It's made of four basic ingredients, but it can be mixed together in myriad ways.   A baker can commit their entire lives to learning about bread, and they will still have more to learn. We'll never be able to cover it all. I think there's room for endless exploration as far as digging into all that bread has to teach us.   My hope is that this book, Bake and Pray, helps to start to illuminate some of the ways that we see God teaching us through the many different steps in the bread-baking process. I also hope that others will start to get into this practice of baking, and through the practice of baking, they themselves will be able to start to see some of the beauty that God reveals through bread.   Laura Dugger:  (33:34 - 34:38) I just wanted to let you know there are now multiple ways to give when you visit thesavvysauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website, and you can find it under the Donate page, which is under the tab entitled Support. Our mailing address is also provided if you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible.   Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com today. Thanks for your support.   Well, and Kendall, you also have a unique take. You spent years as a ballet dancer, and even with your books, you're just writing about the connection beyond, like you said, just our intellect and our minds to the Lord, but using our whole bodies to glorify God. Can you share some more ways that we can use our bodies to bake and pray and glorify God?   Kendall Vanderslice: (34:38 - 39:09) Yeah, so one of the things that I love when I'm first teaching people about this idea of praying with your body, it is ironic. The whole concept of praying with your body is to try and get us out of our minds and into our bodies. But the idea of praying with our body can feel like a very sort of cerebral or like, you know, the sort of thing that doesn't quite make sense.   And so, the way that I like to help people first get started is through the practice of a breath prayer. So, a breath prayer is a practice of repeating a line of scripture or poetry with every inhale and every exhale. And so, one of the ones that I love to start with is my soul finds rest in God alone, drawn from the Psalms.   And so, as you inhale, you repeat my soul finds rest. And as you exhale in God alone. And so, when I'm guiding others through this bake and pray practice, I have a start by just closing our eyes and I will lead us in this rhythm of breathing and of repeating this line again and again and again.   And then from there, I encourage the group to start to mix up their dough while repeating this line with every inhale and exhale. And I think it helps us to see how our breath, our breath itself becomes, you know, these words of scripture so ingrain themselves in our breathing that we then understand our breathing itself as an offering of prayer to God. And then the movements of our bodies through this rhythm of breathing becomes an offering of prayer to God.   And then we realize that the words themselves are not even necessary, that we can offer, you know, the movements of mixing bread dough, but also of gardening, of knitting, of cooking, of playing with our children, of raking leaves, that all of these things can be ways to offer our movements to God as prayer and to invite God into this practice with us and to pay attention to how God is present in these practices. So, I do hope that, you know, people will take bake and pray and actually bake with it and learn to bake as a form of prayer. But I also love when I hear from potters or I hear from gardeners or I hear from other people that work with their hands regularly who tell me, I read this and I don't think I'm going to start baking, but it has reshaped my understanding of my own, you know, craft and my own vocation.   So, I am excited to hear from others who maybe will take this and say, like, this is how I see this work being a form of prayer. But I first started learning about embodied prayer and practicing it when I got to college. I was in a dance team at my college.   I had grown up as a ballerina. I left the ballet world in high school, and it was a really, really hard. My experience was really wonderful in many ways and really hard in many ways.   I was in the pre-professional ballet world, which is, you know, very, very rigorous, very mentally draining, very physically demanding. And when I realized that I wasn't going to be able to make it professionally, it was just absolutely devastating. It was like my whole world was wrapped around this.   And so, then when I got to college, I was invited to be a part of this dance company. But the dance company was for women who had experienced sort of the ballet world in the way that I had, and who were looking for healing and to understand that our dance could be a form of worship and a form of prayer. And when I first started, I thought that the whole concept was really strange.   You know, I was I did not understand. I was so grateful to have this very just affirming community that I was dancing with. It was really it was the first time that I had been, you know, affirmed in my body and affirmed as a dancer and not just, you know, told all the things that were wrong with me.   But still, I was like, this is a really strange concept that as we're dancing, we're somehow praying. And it really was something that I had to practice again and again and again to understand and to really feel. And so, if someone is listening to this and thinking like this sounds like a really strange concept, I encourage you to just try it.   And it might take a few tries. Maybe try using the liturgies that are in the book to help get you into that practice. And then I hope that as you practice, either praying through baking or through gardening or what have you, that you will just get to experience the ways that God's present with you.   And then that will transform your understanding of your craft.   Laura Dugger:  (39:09 - 39:20) Thanks for sharing that. It's important for us to understand that we are embodied beings. And that points to that awesome truth that God with us, that Jesus was embodied.   Kendall Vanderslice: (39:21 - 39:22) Absolutely.   Laura Dugger:  (39:22 - 39:31) But then, OK, so in your most recent book, Bake and Pray, what's one recipe that you're especially excited about?   Kendall Vanderslice: (39:31 - 41:04) You know, we are just emerging from the season of Advent and Christmas, and those are some of my favorite recipes in the book. One that is so delicious, that is it is a Christmas recipe. It is the Moravian sugar cake, but Moravians do eat the sugar cake all year round.   So, it is kind of a classical Christmas recipe. But here at the Moravian bakeries here in North Carolina, you can get them all year round. So Moravian baked goods are an early Protestant tradition. They actually were Protestants before the Protestant Reformation, they like to say. And they're a pretty small denomination here in the United States.   But they're largely focused in here in North Carolina, where I am, and then a little bit in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. But the Moravian baked goods are known for all of their breads have potato in them. And so, some people, you know, there are other recipes that have like a potato, a potato bread or potato rolls.   When you add mashed potato into baked goods, it makes it really, really moist and tender. It holds on to moisture in the baked good much longer than just flour alone. So, the Moravian baked goods all have mashed potato in them.   But the Moravian sugar cake is one where it's this very rich potato bread. And then you put it into a pan, and you poke holes in it, sort of like if you were dimpling focaccia. And then you pour butter and cinnamon sugar on top and bake it.   And it is like it is a mix between sort of coffee cake and bread. And it is so, so, so delicious. I love it.   Laura Dugger:  (41:04 - 41:09) And there is also just a cute little story in there with the history.   Kendall Vanderslice: (41:09 - 41:28) Oh, yes, absolutely. It is, you know, there's this lore that apparently when men were looking for wives, they would look for women that had thick fingers. Because if they had thick fingers, it meant that they would have bigger dimples in their Moravian sugar cake that would hold bigger pockets of cinnamon and sugar.   Laura Dugger:  (41:28 - 41:42) I love that. I thought that was so funny. Well, Kendall, what are some of the most creative ways that you've been able to pair bread and generosity together to minister to others?   Kendall Vanderslice: (41:43 - 43:24) Yeah, one of the things that I am doing right now is, you know, I'm on the road several weeks of the year leading bread baking workshops in churches all over the country. And I love, love, love that part of my work. But in the last year, I started to really crave a closer connection with my community here in Durham, North Carolina.   But I am traveling the country and telling other people about how to connect to home and how to connect to their communities. And that work keeps me from being able to connect to my own home and community. And so, I decided that when I am home, I want to have a more intentional way of feeding the people immediately around me.   And so, I have this practice on Fridays of bread for friends and neighbors. And so, I'll tell, I'll send out an email to friends and neighbors on Monday and tell them, you know, here's what I'm baking this week if I'm in town. And then they let me know what they want.   And on Fridays, I have this shed in my driveway that I open up and it's got this whole like really fun armoire and that I that I've sort of decorated to be a bread pickup area. And so, on Fridays, my neighbors and my friends all walk over, and they come pick up their bread. And it's just been such a gift to be able to feed my immediate community through bread.   But then also to see and hear them sort of connecting in the driveway as they all come pick up their bread at the same time. And folks who either didn't know one another are starting to connect and find and meet one another. But then also neighbors to realize like, oh, you can get kindle bread, I get kindle bread.   And, you know, it's just so fun to have that very simple point of connection, because it can be feel very easy to feel disconnected from the neighbors that you maybe see all over the place. But just that that time of connection and picking up bread, I think, goes a long way beyond just that particular moment.   Laura Dugger:  (43:26 - 43:36) Generosity is always inspiring. And where can we all go to learn more about edible theology online or all of the other things that you have to offer?   Kendall Vanderslice: (43:37 - 44:05) You can learn more at my website, kendallvanderslice.com. The website is currently sort of under construction. So, I've got a makeshift website up right now where you can find everything.   And eventually I will have more links to all of the edible theology resources. But you can find everything you need at kendallvanderslice.com. You can learn about my workshops. You can learn about my books. You can learn about curriculum, about retreats that I lead. All of it is right there.   Laura Dugger:  (44:06 - 44:24) Wonderful. We will certainly add links in today's show notes so that it's easy to find. And Kendall, you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge.   And so is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?   Kendall Vanderslice: (44:25 - 45:13) Well, I think for me it is allowing myself to use even the simplest moments in the kitchen as a time for prayer rather than trying to rush through the practice of just seeing food as something I have to eat three times a day and something I have to make for myself. To realize that even something as simple as heating up a pot of soup or slicing some bread and smearing it with butter is still an invitation to thank God for this gift of food and the ability to prepare it. And so, I think that small practice alone can transform the way we relate to food and our bodies, but also to try and slow down and have a moment in our day where we avoid just rushing through and take a little bit more intentionality to appreciate the gifts that God has given us.   Laura Dugger:  (45:14 - 45:31) Well, Kendall, I was so intrigued from the first time that I heard about edible theology. And I really appreciate how you shed light on God's profound spiritual truths that are around us and that we can interact with in everyday life. But you also have such a charming personality.   Kendall Vanderslice: (45:32 - 45:38) So, thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a delight to be here.   Laura Dugger: (45:39 – 49:21) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

In today's deep dive, we'll learn about what is coming to Central Illinois in the world of arts, culture and entertainment. 

Nick Yelverton, President of the Springfield and Central Illinois Trades and Labor Council and Legislative Director for the Illinois Federation of Teachers (IFT), joined the America's Work Force Union Podcast to discuss his journey in union leadership, the significance of Workers Memorial Day and the current political climate affecting labor rights.  Brad Asay, Vice President of the Utah AFL-CIO and President of the American Federation of Teachers in Utah, returned to the America's Work Force Union Podcast to update listeners on their fight against attacks on public sector collective bargaining rights, challenges faced by labor and the next steps in the fight.

*DISCLAIMER* This episode covers adult topics that are not intended for young ears.   260. Sex After Cancer with Dr. Kris Christiansen   James 1:19 (NIV) My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,   **Transcription Below**   Questions We Discuss: What is common mis-information that you want to set straight as it relates to cancer and sex? If someone is walking their own cancer journey right now, what would you advise them to both do and avoid doing so that they can still enjoy the healthiest sex life possible with their spouse? What hope do you have to share with people who have battled cancer and still desire to connect intimately with their spouse?   Dr. Kris Christiansen is a board-certified family physician who specializes in sexual medicine. She attended medical school and completed her residency in family medicine at the University of Minnesota. She practiced full spectrum family medicine for 10 years and then pursued additional training to specialize in sexual medicine. She works as a sexual medicine specialist at two different clinics in the twin cities.   Her clinical interests include both male and female sexual dysfunction, and she loves working with individuals and couples to restore an important part of life. Dr. Christiansen is involved with teaching medical students and residents at the University of Minnesota Medical School, and she has presented at multiple local, national, and international medical conferences. She is involved with the International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health (ISSWSH) and serves on committees, collaborates with other experts to publish articles for medical journals, and edits informational articles for the society's new patient facing website. She is passionate about teaching patients, students, and colleagues about the importance of sexual health and well-being. In her free time, she started her own business called Intimate Focus which provides information and quality products to enhance and restore sexual health and wellness. She also enjoys shopping, hiking, and spending time with her family.   Dr. Kris Christiansen's Website   Previous Episodes featuring Dr. Kris Christiansen on The Savvy Sauce: 215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen 216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen   Additional Place to Find More Episodes from The Savvy Sauce Related to This Topic: One-Stop Shop for Marriage and Intimacy Resources   Dr. Kris Christiansen's Recommended Websites for Sexual Health: The Menopause Society Mayo Clinic National Institutes of Health International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health American Urological Association International Society of Sexual Medicine Sexual Medicine Society of North America American Cancer Society ISSWSH International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health SMSNA Sexual Medicine Society of North America  ISSM International Society of Sexual Medicine The Menopause Society   Find a provider: For a women's sexual health provider, pelvic floor physical therapist, (non-Christian) sex therapist ABCST American Board of Christian Sex Therapists (for a Christian sex therapist)   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:22) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Leman Property Management Co. has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois.   Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.    Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.   Not many people specialize in the same thing as our returning guest for today, Dr. Kris Christiansen. She specializes in sexual medicine, and today she's going to provide clarity, information, and direction for how to maximize sexual pleasure with our spouse after one receives a cancer diagnosis. Here's our chat.   Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Christiansen.   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (1:23 - 1:30) Well, thank you so much, Laura. We had so much fun last time, and I'm looking forward to this conversation again today.   Laura Dugger: (1:31 - 1:57) Likewise. I feel the same way. And it really wasn't that long ago that you were on The Savvy Sauce two times, so I'll make sure and link to both of those episodes in the show notes for today.   But hopefully everybody's already well acquainted with you, and that's why we're just kind of diving right into our topic today. So, for starters, how did this topic of sex after cancer become an interest of yours to study?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (2:00 - 2:32) Well, so Laura, my job as a sexual medicine physician is that I work with both men and women and helping them with their sexual lives when they have problems or whatever. So, cancer is often a big part of that. So, through my journey with work, I've just developed a significant interest in learning how to really care for people to help restore this important part of life.   Laura Dugger: (2:33 - 2:52) Absolutely, because a lot is taken away when somebody gets that awful diagnosis, and so I'm very grateful for people like you who are experts. But is there any common misinformation that you would like to set straight as it relates to cancer and sex?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (2:55 - 6:42) Well, interesting you say that, because there is so much misinformation out there just about sex in general. And then when we throw cancer in on top of that, it just makes it even more complicated. So, I think a common fear that people experience when they get that diagnosis that they hope they never hear, the C word, is that it's going to have a significant impact on their sexual intimacy.   And you know what, it can, but that doesn't mean that that chapter in life is closed. We just have to remember that sexual intimacy is much, much broader than just intercourse. So, if we can refer to this as PIV sex, penis in vagina sex, many people view it as kind of an all or none thing.   If they can't have vaginal intercourse or that PIV sex, then they don't want anything at all. Unfortunately, that just rules out or shuts out so much of sexual intimacy that God has intended for us. We may not be able to engage in the same activities for a time or even long term, but that doesn't mean that we can't connect.   So, if we try to remember that intimacy, sexual intimacy is all about giving and receiving pleasure, then there are so many more opportunities. So, we have to get beyond the fact that sexual intimacy, sexual intercourse is just vaginal intercourse because it's not. It's giving and receiving pleasure.   And however people want to connect or comfortable connecting, that they can still enjoy a very fruitful sex life. The other thing that is misunderstood and misconceptions is estrogen, vaginal estrogen, especially. Because, well, all women who enter menopause and you're in menopause for the rest of your life do experience some changes.   And it's so common that women experience the genital urinary syndrome of menopause. That's vaginal atrophy, or when the tissues get drier and thinner and there can be tearing and pain as well as bleeding and decreased sensation, decreased sensitivity. These things are common with aging, but oftentimes cancer treatments emphasize that or accelerate it or make it even worse.   And vaginal estrogen is really, really safe. It does not cause cancer. And most of the studies show that even in women who have breast cancer, that it doesn't cause recurrence.   So vaginal estrogen, being so safe, can really save our vaginas. And we're talking about vaginal health and bladder health. It's not just about sex, but it helps keep our bodies functioning properly and minimizing pain and discomfort.   So, if a woman is diagnosed with breast cancer and she's on treatment, then obviously we have to talk to the oncologist, make sure they're okay with that. But we get more and more studies showing it's safety and it's definitely effective and can help keep our tissues young.   Laura Dugger: (6:42 - 7:25) This is really helpful and brand new information to me. So someone, like you used that example, if they have breast cancer diagnosis and there's different types, but if they're doing the treatment where perhaps they go into early menopause or they have a hysterectomy or remove their ovaries and they even have an estrogen blocker so that they're not producing estrogen, for that type, you're still saying as long as you're working with the oncologist for that personal client, even in those situations, vaginal estrogen, which would be, I'm assuming, more of a cream or something you insert to the vagina, is that right? That that would be safe?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (7:25 - 10:55) So, where it gets a little gray is if the woman is taking an aromatase inhibitor, which is the estrogen blocker. So, it pretty much wipes all estrogen out of her system. There's a little more risk there.   So most definitely we need to double check with the oncologist. But it often comes down to quality of life. I have a patient who, she was diagnosed with breast cancer, I believe, in her early 60s.   And she came to me at the sexual medicine clinic and she was just miserable. I mean, when we think of vaginal dryness, you think of, okay, it's annoying. You use a lubricant, right, and it's going to be just fine.   In the beginning, yes, that's the case. But this genital urinary syndrome of menopause, GSM, gets worse with time, especially with those anti-estrogen treatments. And for this poor woman, she couldn't exercise.   She loved to go hiking. She loved to go skiing. And just any kind of movement was painful.   And we don't think of that. We kind of take it for granted. But for some women who really experience severe side effects of the breast cancer treatments and causing dryness and irritation, it affects everything.   And for her, we tried all the non-hormonal things first. They didn't work. And her oncologist gave us the blessing saying, you know, we tried it.   This is really important to you. Let's give it a try. And so, we've monitored her, and the vaginal estrogen hasn't caused any problems.   So, a couple points on that. With the vaginal estrogen, yes, it comes as a cream. There's a tablet, which is like a little pill with an applicator that you insert in the vagina.   There are vaginal inserts. They look like little caplets that you just insert with the finger. There's a vaginal ring.   But with the localized treatment, it's meant to just act locally, meaning just on the vaginal tissues. And, oh, package insert. So, you know, here we tell patients, vaginal estrogen is safe.   Don't worry. It's not going to cause cancer, heart attack, strokes, or blood clots. But then they go home.   They get their prescription. They open up the patient insert, package insert, and it talks about risks and bad things that can happen and side effects. Unfortunately, the FDA says we have to use the class labeling or the side effects that are associated with systemic estrogen.   And it automatically gets applied to the localized or vaginal estrogen treatments. So, patients go home, they read that, and they think we're lying to them. But, unfortunately, it's just very misleading because we have plenty of studies to show that vaginal estrogen doesn't cause those terrible things.   And it's very safe. So, they just have to trust us. And there are groups and people out there trying to work with the FDA to get that class labeling effect removed because it just scares everybody away from using estrogen, which can be so helpful.   Laura Dugger: (10:57 - 11:04) Wow, that is helpful. Is there any other common misinformation you want to make sure we don't overlook before we continue on?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (11:05 - 11:29) Well, I made a few notes here. No, I don't think so. Except that media, television, and all that other stuff that we see out there is so misleading when it comes to sexual intimacy.   Because sex in real life doesn't look like what you see in the movies. Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (11:30 - 11:45) Great, great point. And so, when somebody does get, like you said, that dreaded C-word diagnosis, what's a common path that they may experience as it affects them sexually?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (11:48 - 14:00) Well, so, the different cancers are so different and treatments are so different that it's hard to generalize for everybody. But, you know, first thing most people experience is fear. What's this mean for me?   What's this mean for my life, my family? Am I going to be around in five years? So, it's that fear.   And the initial part of that journey is often involved with meeting with lots of doctors, having all the tests, trying to figure out what's going on, what we're going to do. And sexual intimacy often isn't part of that first steps that they take. So, but when things kind of finally settle down, then those questions start popping up.   What does this mean? It's important to talk with your cancer journey, your cancer team, the oncology team to find out what's going on. And it's important to ask all these questions because doctors really aren't very good about asking about sexual health and what that means to you.   Oncologists, generally speaking, they want to treat the cancer and their job is done when the cancer is treated, under control, gone, whatever. And they've done a good job. However, so many of us are just left afterwards saying, okay, thanks, cancer's gone, but now what?   And so, it's a matter of really trying to figure out what's important over time, learning what's going to work and what's not. And know that there are people out there to help you and that want to help you if it's not going as planned. You know, I just want to reiterate that people really need to advocate for themselves and they need to ask questions.   And if they're not getting the answers that they want, don't give up because there are people, organizations, information out there that can be helpful. So rather than just worrying about what's next, seek help.   Laura Dugger: (14:02 - 14:18) That's really great advice. And I think this may be an appropriate place to pause and just get some of those recommended places. Because if somebody, this is new to them and they don't know where to turn, do you have any places or websites off the top of your mind that you would recommend?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (14:20 - 15:41) Well, so cancer.org, the American Cancer Society has a lot of resources on there. When it comes to menopause-type symptoms and such, menopause.org is the Menopause Society, which has a lot of information. And a website called PROSAYLA, it's P-R-O-S-A-Y-L-A.com, is a website that's managed by ISHWISH.   We've got all these acronyms. The International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health. So that is my go-to.   Okay, so that's the organization where there's so much research and science and such happening. And the PROSAYLA.org or prosayla.com, either one works, is a website where there are several articles written by experts in the field. So, these are articles backed by science.   It's not just somebody's opinion or somebody's blog. And I know there's an article on there about sex or cancer and sexuality. So, some generalities and some other references on that site too.   Laura Dugger: (15:42 - 15:51) Okay, that is super helpful information. We'll make sure and add links to those places as well. Anything else that you want to make sure we don't miss?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (15:52 - 17:36) Well, when we talk about sexual concerns or sexual problems, we always try to approach it from a biopsychosocial aspect. Because those three different entities all play a big role in what works well and what doesn't. So, from the biological section, that's pain, medications, nerve problems, chronic medical problems.   So obviously cancer plays a big role in that. And with cancer treatments and such, pain may be part of that, nausea, fatigue. And so, we just don't feel the same going through these treatments because it's really hard.   As far as the psych bubble, I'm usually referencing a Venn diagram here. Psychological, so when we experience anxiety or depression or performance anxiety, that plays a big role. So, we need to take a step back and realize that what happens up here in our brain has a huge impact on how our bodies function physically.   And then as far as the social aspect, that's our relationships, our interpersonal relationships with our partner, our spouse, with our family and how things are going on at work. A cancer diagnosis and treatment can affect all of those. And so, it's not just a magic pill to improve your libido because if we don't treat all these other things, people continue to struggle with their sexual function.   Laura Dugger: (18:01 - 19:46) Duplexes, studios and garden style options located in many areas throughout Pekin. In Peoria, a historic downtown location and apartments adjacent to the OSF Medical Center provide excellent choices. Check out their brand-new luxury property in Peoria Heights overlooking the boutique shops and fine dining on Prospect.   And in Morton, they offer a variety of apartment homes with garages, a hot downtown location and now a brand-new high-end complex near Idlewood Park. Their beautiful, spacious apartments with private garages in a quiet but convenient location await you in Washington. And if you're looking in Canton, don't miss Village Square Apartments.   Renters may be excited to learn about their flexible leases, pet-friendly locations and even mini storage units available in some locations. Leman Property Management Co. has a knowledgeable and helpful staff, including several employees with over 30 years working with this reputable company. If you want to become a part of their team, contact them about open office positions.   They're also hiring in their maintenance department, so we invite you to find out why so many people have chosen to make a career with them. Check them out on Facebook today or email their friendly staff at Leasing@LemanProps.com. You can also stop by their website at lemanproperties.com.   That's LEMANproperties.com. Check them out and find your place to call home today.    Also, Dr. Kris, are there any certain cancers or treatments that have the most detrimental impact on a person's sex life?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (19:48 - 23:15) We know that cancers that affect the breast, for women, but men too get breast cancer, and also the genital area have the biggest impact. We've talked a fair amount about breast cancer. Many of the treatments for breast cancer result in early menopause.   If a woman is premenopausal when this happens, menopause can have a definite impact. The treatments can cause the pain and dryness and decrease sensitivity. Also, if surgery is involved in a mastectomy, it can affect our own body self-image.   From a more physical standpoint too, when we have the mastectomy and those nerves are cut, it decreases the sensitivity. For a lot of women, breast stimulation is really important as part of their sexual play. If now her breasts are gone and she can't feel anything when her husband is touching her breasts, that can be a really hard adjustment.   Any cancers that affect the genital area, uterine cancer, ovarian cancer, or anal rectal cancer for both men and women, and prostate cancer for men, those all have a huge impact. In addition to working with a lot of women who have breast cancer and overcoming and improving those areas, I work with a lot of men who have prostate cancer. Those treatments usually result in erection problems and urinary incontinence, which can be hard to deal with.   Men who have a prostatectomy, so if they have their prostate removed, then 100% of them are going to have erectile dysfunction in the beginning. It's going to take time for those nerves to recover, and it may take up to two years to see that full recovery. In those first few months when I'm working with men, I'm trying to be their cheerleader, saying, don't lose hope, don't give up, because this is going to get better.   It just takes time for those nerves to regrow. In the process, though, it is important to do whatever we can to make sure that that tissue stays healthy. Remember that the penis is actually muscle, muscle tissue, smooth muscle.   If we don't use a muscle for several months, atrophy sets in, which is a bad thing. With atrophy, the penis can shrink in size, and scar tissue potentially can set in, and it just makes that recovery less optimal than what it would have been. Trying to maintain the blood flow during those first few months or first year is really helpful.   Just to help maintain the blood flow and the oxygen to help keep the tissues healthy, so when the tenders do recover as best as they're going to, we get the best outcome.   Laura Dugger: (23:16 - 23:36) This may be an ignorant question, but then if erectile issues are present during that first time period, but it's crucial to have the blood flow to that area, what can men do to increase blood flow there, even if erection is difficult or impossible?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (23:36 - 25:01) That's a great question. Taking a medication like Viagra or Cialis. Cialis is my favorite because it stays in the system for a good 36 to 48 hours every time you take it.   If you're just taking a low dose every day, it just encourages a little bit of that blood flow every day. Using a vacuum device, which I just happen to have one right here, looks like this. A penis goes inside the cylinder, we create a vacuum or suction, and it pulls the blood flow in.   It's not the most sexy thing, but using it and using the vacuum device several times a week just to get that blood flow going is a very helpful way to keep the tissues healthy. Getting an erection with the vacuum doesn't get those arousal-type feelings, so it looks a little weird, but it does work. For men who want to use this for sexual activity, you can get the erection within the tube, and then it comes with these tight rings that are stretched over the edge of the cylinder.   Once you get the full erection within the tube, you slide that ring off to maintain the erection.   Laura Dugger: (25:04 - 25:14) That's incredible just to pause and think of God's grace and these inventions and how incredible that there are solutions. Please continue, but I find that encouraging.   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (25:16 - 27:39) There are all kinds of encouraging things, but if you're in the middle of this journey, it can be sometimes hard to keep going when you're not getting the results that you want to. But we believe in a big God, and he created sexual intimacy, and it's a gift. Other ways to help manage erectile dysfunction and a couple other show-and-tell things here.   This medication is called Muse. The actual medication is a pellet that comes preloaded in this applicator. You insert it in the tip of the penis, the medication gets absorbed, and 10 minutes later, magic happens.   I don't prescribe this very often because it's really, really expensive, a little harder to find. But the advantage to this medication is that it doesn't need the nerves to work, whereas the medications like Viagra and Cialis, they need the nerves. Guys usually kind of turn white when I pull this out.   For our listeners, I'm holding an insulin syringe and needle. There is such a treatment where you can actually inject a tiny amount of medicine directly into the penis, and it will give you an erection. I tell men that with the pills like Viagra and Cialis, just in general with ED, it works in about 60% of men.   We can get this to work, the injections to work, in 90-95%. It's such a tiny needle that men say it feels like a poke or a pinch once they get past that initial shock that they think is going to hurt. The usual response is, oh, that wasn't so bad, and it's very effective.   This can work within four to six weeks, so whenever your surgeon says it's okay to engage in sexual activity again, this will work. Then last but not least is a penile implant. That's surgery, and that you have to wait at least a year, if not two, after the prostate surgery.   That works in 99.99%. Wow.   Laura Dugger: (27:40 - 27:56) We were focusing a lot on men for that one. Is there any medication or any other injections or anything like that for women, other than the vaginal cream or different ways to get estrogen in the vagina?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (27:58 - 31:15) Yes, we've got all kinds of treatments. If a woman has breast cancer, or for whatever reason we want to avoid hormones as much as possible, then generally we're starting with a vaginal moisturizer, which is different than a lubricant. A lubricant is just for sexual activity and just to make things slipperier and feel better.   That often helps in the beginning, but as the GSM or the atrophy continues, the lubricant isn't enough. A moisturizer, think of like a facial moisturizer or a moisturizer for your hand, in order for it to work, you have to use it regularly, which is probably at least three times a week. These moisturizers can come in forms of a liquid that gets injected.   They're little capsules that you can insert. Reveri is a hyaluronic acid suppository, which you insert in the vagina and over time that can be really helpful. One of my favorites is this Rosebud Everyday Balm.   It's a really nice balm that you can put on the tissues inside the lips and inside the vagina. It's just really, really soothing. Again, you've got to use these things regularly.   It will take a good two months at least to see the full effect, so it doesn't work right away. Just like with the guys where they've got to be patient with the nerves, we have to be persistent and patient with things that can work. A vaginal moisturizer is really helpful.   A lubricant for sexual activity. There are over-the-counter and prescription medications that can help with arousal and orgasm. There are two approved medications for the treatment of low libido in premenopausal women.   One is Addi, which is a pill that you take every day, also known as the pink pill. Another treatment is Vilece, which is an injection. It comes in a pen, so you never see the needle and really don't feel the needle.   You give it to yourself about 45 minutes to an hour before sexual activity. Both of these medications are working on the brain chemistry because the brain is the biggest sex organ in the body. It's the most important sex organ.   It works on the brain chemistry and improving the dopamine and norepinephrine and the good sex positive hormones. Like I said, it's only approved for premenopausal women, but many of us do prescribe it for postmenopausal women. We have studies to show that it's safe and it's effective.   The drug companies didn't go through with all the rigmarole they had to do to get the FDA-approved indication for that. We've got all kinds of tricks up our sleeve.   Laura Dugger: (31:16 - 31:26) Absolutely. Just piggybacking on that, they wouldn't oftentimes follow through on all those studies, would you say primarily because of financial restraints?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (31:27 - 31:41) Totally. To get a medication approved for female sexual function, it's multi-million, if not a billion dollars. Studies and everything that needs to be done, it's crazy.   That's why these meds are so expensive.   Laura Dugger: (31:42 - 32:14) Then you also mentioned earlier bringing in the quality of life. There are so many options to consider, but such a personal basis. I had another question that arose.   You kind of were answering that because this one works with the brain chemistry. I'm thinking the body parts may be functioning and you can do different things to have an erection or be aroused with your genitalia, but how is desire affected with cancer?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (32:16 - 35:03) It's huge, unfortunately. Again, if we go back to that biopsychosocial model and for everything to work well, everything's got to be working well. If we have pain, of course that drives down desire.   We use the analogy of putting your hand on a hot stove. Pain with sex can hurt just as badly as that. I have women tell me it's 10 out of 10 pain feels like shards of glass.   Obviously, that's not pleasant. If we compare that to putting your hand on a hot stove, why in the world would you want to do that? We've got to take care of the pain.   When it comes to pain, it becomes imprinted in the brain and the body responds by just amplifying that pain. You've got more pain and you have less desire. Part of GSM or surgery or chemotherapy and other treatments, radiation, can affect the nerves.   We don't get those positive sensations and the arousal anymore. There's arousal in the brain as well as arousal in the genital area. If we're not getting that positive feedback that this just isn't fun anymore, it's hard to get enthused about engaging in that.   Sex therapy can be really helpful. Sex therapy isn't going to fix thin tissues, but a sex therapist is very skilled and trained at working with people and working with couples on trying to process this, working through the process and the changes that are happening. Sometimes it is a permanent change in sexual function, so there's grief involved.   Helping to process through some of that is really important. But again, if we take a step back and remember that sexual intimacy is more than just PIV sex, that there are all kinds of ways to be able to give and receive pleasure, as long as each person is comfortable with this. And moving beyond the thinking that, well, if I can't have intercourse, I'm not going to have anything at all, then that may mean you might not have anything at all for the rest of your life.   That makes me sad. We just have to take a step back, work through some of this, because it's a journey, it's a cancer journey, it's an aging journey, and try to make the most of it.   Laura Dugger: (35:04 - 36:32) I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Hinrichsen from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product. So, I hope you check it out.   There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.   What are some of those examples for someone if they can't have PIV sex anymore? What are ways that you encourage continuing to build intimacy and a knowing of one another and offering and receiving pleasure?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (36:34 - 41:17) Well, starting with making sure each person is on the same page as far as what they're comfortable with. Okay? Communication is key.   To be able to talk about what you want, what you desire, what your needs are, and listening to your partner say that same thing, trying to make no judgments and not forcing anybody into anything, but just so that we can help understand each other. And when it comes to actual giving and receiving pleasure, whether that's with manual stimulation, with your hands, with your fingers, or if you have a massager, oral stimulation, using a vibrator. And a vibrator can be really helpful for women in menopause, women dealing with cancer treatments, and also for men if they need a little extra help with the stimulation because their nerves aren't working so well.   A vibrator, using it together in the context of giving and receiving pleasure can help, just help with the response, help with the enjoyment, and make it a little more fun, as long as everybody's okay with that. Using a lubricant is really important. And a good lubricant, you want to use a good lubricant because some of the more common ones, unfortunately, have ingredients in them that can actually hurt or irritate.   And like KY and Astroglide, sorry to name names here, but they're basic water-based lubricants, have either glycerin, parabens, or propylene glycol in them, and those can irritate, so we want to try to avoid those. A silicone-based lubricant doesn't have those preservatives, and it stays slippery longer. Where we have to be careful with that is that if you're using a silicone tool, otherwise known as a vibrator, you don't want to use those together because it can ruin the tool.   And if the man is struggling with ED, using too much, especially of a silicone lubricant, can make it too slippery. And too slippery is not so good for him. Oil-based lubricants, they're very nice, except if you're using condoms, it will degrade the condom and create other problems, potentially.   Other ways to stimulate, manually, orally, and when women have pain with intercourse, I'm going to bring in another show-and-tell here, the pain is often coming from the vulva, not so much in the vagina. We talk about vaginal dryness and vaginal atrophy, but the part that's most sensitive is often just right inside the little lips here. And so, if we have terrible pain with penetration, we want to avoid that.   However, the whole surrounding vulvar area is very rich in nerves, can be very much stimulated, and it can feel really good, however each person is comfortable stimulating that area. And another fun fact is that this entire structure is the clitoris. You know, when we think of the clitoris, we think of the glands, this tiny little magic button right here, which, by the way, has 10,000 nerve endings in it.   It's incredible. But the legs, the legs are the cruise of the clitoris, as well as the bulbs. They come down on either side of the vagina.   So, the vagina is here. However, this part of the clitoris can easily be stimulated, so the legs of the clitoris can be easily stimulated, just inside the labia majora, or the outer lips. So, using a vibrator here can be really pleasurable, and you're avoiding the part that hurts.   So, stimulating externally the clitoris, the labia, and wherever else feels good can be very fun. And so, if you try to approach it may be like a game, making it fun and exploring each other's bodies so that you can really figure out ways to make the other person feel good or experience pleasure without causing pain.   Laura Dugger: (41:18 - 41:43) That's so great. And like you had mentioned, if they go see a Christian sex therapist, they would say the same thing as you to stop when there is pain, because it just makes it worse over time. And so, I love that you've given us other options, if that is the case.   Is there ever a time where orgasm is no longer possible after cancer?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (41:46 - 43:14) It's possible. Yes. Depending on the cancer and the treatment, that it can make it really difficult or even impossible to get there.   But that's where we want to not focus on orgasm as the ultimate goal, because if we engage in sexual activity with orgasm as the ultimate goal, your brain's not going to let you go there, whether it's the male or the female, either one, the brain is the biggest sex organ in the body. Just trying to go for the gold just won't let you get there. So, you have to relax and enjoy the journey regardless.   So even if the cancer or the treatment didn't necessarily affect orgasm or if it's just our brains, my encouragement is to approach a sexual encounter as an experience. Enjoy the experience. It's not a performance.   We don't want to perform because then we get in our head, and we get nervous and our muscles all tighten up. So, we don't want to perform. We want to enjoy the experience, and it can be very pleasurable.   Even if orgasm isn't part of the picture anymore, it doesn't mean you can't have fun and can't connect because you can.   Laura Dugger: (43:15 - 43:25) But then I guess also to offer the hope, if I ask it a different way, are there times that orgasm is still possible after a cancer diagnosis?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (43:27 - 44:01) Absolutely. We always have hope. We always have hope.   Just because you're diagnosed with cancer doesn't mean you're not going to be able to engage in PIV sex or be able to experience an orgasm because that's always a possibility. Don't focus on just getting to the big orgasm. You want to slow down, enjoy the journey, and oftentimes it will come.   There are medications that help with blood flow, that help with arousal and orgasm, and sometimes they can be helpful. Sometimes they're not, but usually it doesn't hurt to try them.   Laura Dugger: (44:02 - 44:26) There you go. That's a very helpful reminder. It's a piece of the puzzle, not the whole thing.   But if someone right now is walking through their own cancer journey, what else would you advise them both to do and to avoid doing so that they can still enjoy the healthiest sex life possible with their spouse?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (44:29 - 47:19) That's going to involve several pieces. One, first and foremost, maintain the communication about wants and desires, what hurts, what doesn't, what can we do, what do you want to try tonight? Maintaining the communication.   It's much better to prevent problems like the vaginal dryness and pain than to try to treat it after you've been dealing with it for years sometimes, or even months. If you have, say, breast cancer, just getting in the habit of using one of those vaginal moisturizers from the get-go even before the dryness starts can help prevent problems. Seeing a pelvic floor physical therapist can be really, really helpful.   A pelvic floor physical therapist is a physical therapist who specializes in these pelvic floor muscles that help support everything on the inside. And so if these muscles are too tight, causes pain, and if they're already too tight, doing tangles is the last thing that you want to do, because sometimes it means being able to relax them. Or women who have, who need pelvic radiation, say for uterine cancer, the gynecologic oncologist is usually really good about giving you a vaginal dilator and to use it, but they're not always really good at telling you exactly how to use it, how frequently and how long, so be sure and ask.   Because again, we want to maintain the integrity of the tissues, because it's better to maintain them than try to get it back. That's often quite hard. For guys, especially with prostate cancer, it means participating in that, we call it penile rehabilitation.   So, it's basically physical therapy for the penis. You know, its muscle, so we want to keep that muscle healthy and to help maintain healthy tissues. And just trying to be as good to ourselves as we can, giving ourselves and our partners grace when we need it, because it's a journey and it's not an easy one.   But we believe in a big God and he's there to help us through this and he delights when husband and wife can unite as one, whatever that looks like. And it makes him happy and he's there to try to keep this going for us.   Laura Dugger: (47:21 - 47:40) And you may have already answered this question with that, but I love how you're always encouraging and gentle and full of hope. So, any other hope that you want to share with anyone who's battled cancer or is in the midst of their journey, but they're still desiring to connect intimately with their spouse?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (47:47 - 48:33) Sometimes it means asking for help. So, for finding a provider, whether that's a therapist, a gynecologist, a sexual medicine provider, or even your pastor counselor to help you through this. In the show notes, we'll put in websites where you can find a provider because not everybody is educated.   Hardly anybody's educated on this, unfortunately. But there are people out there throughout the country, throughout the world, where you can find to help guide you on this journey. Don't suffer in silence.   We're here to help. So be sure to reach out so we can help you.   Laura Dugger: (48:33 - 48:50) That's so good, Dr. Christiansen. And are there any other proactive measures that all of us can take to set us up for a healthy sex life into aging or any diagnoses that we may get in the future?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (48:53 - 50:38) Well, treating our body like a temple, like God says. We have to take good care of ourselves. And just in general, going for your preventative visits and checking your cholesterol and your blood sugar and your blood pressure and screening for cancer so we can prevent them or catch them really early.   And it's so much easier to treat. But things like smoking and diabetes and being overweight and high blood pressure, high cholesterol, they impact sexual function very negatively, especially smoking. Guys are still surprised when I tell them, or I show them a picture of a cigarette with ashes that are kind of wilting off the end.   This is your penis. This is what happens with smoking. Okay.   So quitting smoking. And in women, we have those same little blood vessels and nerves that men do. And so not taking care of ourselves as far as weight, exercise and diabetes and all that stuff, that affects our sexual function, too.   So just making sure that we take a proactive stance on just taking really good care of our medical and our mental health because that's so important. And our spiritual health. Can't forget that, too.   Yeah. Just, you know, taking care of ourselves because aging does impact sexual function. As we get older, our endurance isn't quite what it used to be.   Certainly not as flexible as we used to be. Things kind of hurt. Achy joints and whatever.   So, the more we can take care of ourselves, the more we can enjoy that sexual intimacy, which does involve a little bit of physical exertion.   Laura Dugger: (50:39 - 51:03) Absolutely. Well, you've shared a lot of places where we can go to seek help. But I would love to know where we can continue to learn from you or a website where people can find out more of your offerings because you mentioned not many people are educated in this field or on this topic, but you are a great resource.   So where would you direct all of us after this chat?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (51:05 - 52:23) Well, I started my own business called Intimate Focus, Intimate-Focus.com. Where my goal is to offer education and quality products that people can use to help equip them and enhance sexual intimacy. As part of my clinical career where I see patients, we'd often talk about using a good lubricant or getting a vibrator to help with those nerves that just aren't quite as effective anymore.   And so many times they told me they were just not comfortable going to an adult store or they didn't want to purchase them on Amazon because it could be a shared account and kids or whatever may see what they're ordering. So, this is a private and secure site and I don't even know how to sell your email so don't worry, that's not going to happen. Where you can purchase good quality products, I vet them out myself to make sure that they don't contain the ingredients that I encourage women to avoid and no pictures with nudity or anything like that because I want it to be a comfortable space or at least as comfortable as we can make it for everybody.   Laura Dugger: (52:24 - 52:43) Wonderful. Well, I'll certainly link that in the show notes as well. And Dr. Christiansen, you are already a friend of The Savvy Sauce, so you know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (52:46 - 53:15) Well, you know, James in the Bible is a very practical kind of guy and I love his advice that we should all be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry. And if we were all able to do that or at least just a little more of that, I think our world would be a much better place to live.   Laura Dugger: (53:16 - 53:42) This is so good. I cannot hear that verse enough and I just truly look so forward to the times that I get to spend with you. You are such a calming presence full of wisdom.   That's what we prayed for before we had the recording begin for today. And I am just overflowing with gratitude. So, thank you, Dr. Christiansen, for all that you've shared. Thank you so much for being my returning guest.   Dr. Kris Christiansen: (53:43 - 53:48) Well, thank you, Laura. This has been great. It's an honor to be on your show.   Laura Dugger: (53:50 - 57:32) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

In today's deep dive, we'll learn more about what is coming to Central Illinois in the world of art, culture and entertainment.  

259. God Speaks to His Kids . . . Here's How with Chris Allen   **Transcription Below**   “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.” John 10:27 NIV   Questions and Topics We Discuss: How can we actually disciple our children to listen to God and recognize when they are hearing from the Holy Spirit as well? You've stated, "If you want to hear him, cultivate wonder." Will you elaborate? What are some follow up questions we can ask our kids to actually put this into practice?   Chris Allen is married to Rachael and they have three kids. Chris has a masters degree in spiritual formation from Richmont Graduate University and he is a trained spiritual director. Previously Chris was a pastor in full time ministry for many years, but he is also a technology entrepreneur and is currently working in the technology group at Chick-fil-A.    Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:   231 Stories Series: Faith Building Miracles with Dave Pridemore   Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:36) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Duggar, and I'm so glad you're here.    The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka.   Owned and operated by the Birchie family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at samlemanchevy.com.    Chris Allen is my guest today.   He has a master's degree in spiritual formation from Richmond Graduate University, and he's also a trained spiritual director. Previously, Chris was in full-time ministry as a pastor for many years, but he's also a technology entrepreneur, and currently he's working in the technology group at Chick-fil-A. Chris and my husband, Mark, actually go way back, so I've also invited Mark to come along with me today to interview Chris as we ask him more about cultivating wonder in our children and helping them to understand how to hear from God so that they can enjoy a conversational relationship with the Lord.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Mark, and Chris.   Mark Dugger: (1:38 - 1:39) Hey, thanks. Great to be here.    Chris Allen: (1:39 – 1:41) Yeah, it's great to be here.   Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 1:48) Well, I just want to start off and have both of you just take us back to how you two initially met.   Chris Allen: (1:49 - 2:20) Oh, gosh, that's dangerous, Laura. Are you sure you want to do that? Well, Mark and I met in, I think it was fourth grade. But I've kind of known for not having the best memory, so I could have that off.   Maybe Mark will correct me, but yeah, starting somewhere in maybe sixth grade, we started kind of being pretty close and spent a lot, a lot of years together through middle school and high school and into adulthood, so it's been a while. Yeah, Mark?   Mark Dugger: (2:20 - 2:32) I'm pretty sure we were in the nursery together at church growing up, so clearly you meant more to me than I meant to you. I think is what it's coming down to, but that's okay.   Chris Allen: (2:33 - 2:38) I know that's been a theme in our relationship, but you are very important to me, Mark.   Mark Dugger: (2:39 - 2:58) No, I just remember a mutual friend of ours moved away, and I think that was the catalyst for us starting to hang out. You lived right behind him. I would go to his house all the time, and then when he moved away, that was kind of the catalyst for us to start hanging out, and then I feel like we were pretty much inseparable from then on.   Chris Allen: (2:59 - 3:07) See, it's always good to have at least someone who remembers, but I do know that you're important to me today.   Mark Dugger: (3:08 - 3:10) Well, thank you, Chris.   Laura Dugger: (3:11 - 3:34) Well, and it's been awesome just to hear the stories of growing up together and being close through all the years, but you guys also had so many unique opportunities. As I hear how both of you had a faith at a reasonably young age, so I'd love to hear from both of you, what were some of your experiences through those formative years that grew your faith?   Chris Allen: (3:39 - 5:27) Yeah. Looking back on those years is kind of interesting for me. I became captivated by Jesus around the age of 13, and it really kind of consumed my time, at least mostly, and not because I needed to or had to.   It was I wanted to. In our church community, mostly our youth group, just kind of became honestly where I spent most of my time. Mark and I kind of experienced that together. So, I think we had a lot of time there.   We had a really tight-knit community. And then the other big thing was pretty early, we both kind of got invited into participating in God's work in different ways. We would lead things at our youth group.   We started leading things. Other youth groups started having us come in, and we had a worship band, and we would facilitate study and some teaching. But looking back at that, I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe they let me lead anything.   And so, it really, for me, illuminates how God has chosen to work in our lives. He invites us to participate in His kingdom. There is no qualification for that.   It's just as we are. And then He uses our participation not only to create fruit, like others are impacted by it, but He also shapes us in the process. And so, I think that's always true.   It's true today of all of us, but I can see it a little bit more clearly when I look back at that season. Yeah.   Mark Dugger: (5:29 - 6:20) Well, Chris, you glossed over the fact about talking about the praise band that we were part of and how I was really the core being the manager, aka sound manager. It was awful. I was literally there with no musical inclination whatsoever, and I was only there by association because you guys were awesome musicians, leading worship in incredible ways.   And I was the tagalong who we would do sound checks, and you would be like, “hey, Mark, can you turn up the left monitor? No, no, no, no, not that one. The other monitor. No, wait, no. You know what? I'm just going to come back and just do it for you.”   And so really, I was the glue that held everyone together. You didn't really talk about that part.   Chris Allen: (6:21 - 6:51) Yeah. I'm so glad you brought it up, Mark. Yeah, there was a lot of trips running from the stage to the soundboard to do the thing I was trying to get Mark to do.   But no, Mark, you were incredibly supportive in those years. All that was accurate, except for the amazing musician part. We maybe could say that about him, but for me, I think I knew just enough to maybe get through the song.   Mark Dugger: (6:52 - 8:45) Well, I was going to say, in all seriousness, there was one particular retreat I remember specifically, and you let me do the closing message at the very end, and it was going to be on the Prodigal Son. And I remember being like, this is one of those cool experiences that's still surreal to me that came in. I felt like I was kind of the closing deal. And so, I remember there being a lot of pride involved in that.   And I remember hearing about the Prodigal Son and knowing that story really well. And I came in just thinking, all right, I'm just going to just bring it and it's going to be amazing. And all of these kids are going to come and know the Lord.   And I remember even in my arrogance and pride, God still shined through. And I remember getting off that stage when I was about to walk off. I remember just, I even like forgot my words at one point and walked off the stage.   And it was absolutely, I felt embarrassed, and I felt like I had just failed God through my pride and arrogance. And then all of a sudden, you came in and kind of rescued this amazing moment and really closed out that message. And I'll just never forget how shaping that was for me, that seeing even in spite of arrogance and pride and fault and sin of my own, that God can still use those things for His good.   And I just remember that being such a shaping moment for me. And really just, I think it further grew our friendship just to see, you just kind of pick me up in that way and answer God's call and have the courage just to kind of lead through it there. So, I just remember that being just a profound moment in my faith and growth.   Chris Allen: (8:47 - 9:01) Yeah. Well, that's a great example of just the kinds of things we got to experience at that age. And I think it was really formative for both of us to get to do that in middle school and high school years.   Laura Dugger: (9:03 - 9:28) And I've just gotten to know this over the years, hearing all of these stories of the two of you and Adam Johnson, who was part of the band. And it's incredible to be so close in friendship still, all three of you, and now they're awesome wives. And so, switching gears though, from the past now, Chris, can you catch us up on your current life stage with your family as well?   Chris Allen: (9:29 - 10:34) Well, the biggest news is we just got a new pup. I don't know if you can hear him barking in the background, but Walt is our newest member. He's a little Shih poos.   So, he is a fluffy monster, which is wonderful when you're petting him, not so great when you have to pay for the grooming. But it's actually, it's been really good. We've talked about getting a dog for a lot of years, and our kids are just at the perfect season to soak it up.   So, we have three kids, 11, 9, and 6 (Ryan, Ramsey and Harvey) and my wife, Rachel. We are coming up on 16 years of marriage here this fall. So yeah, that's the season we're in.   We're having a lot of fun. It's like, you know, people keep telling me like, you're in the golden years. And I feel like we're actually experiencing it and enjoying it for the most part.   Of course, there's always, always the things. But yes, that's where we are.   Mark Dugger: (10:35 - 11:23) So, I want to go back here recently. We were on a drive down to Atlanta, and our kids love their phone conversations with Uncle Chris on the way down. And I just remember one specific instance where we were talking to you and asking you about this experience you had to, you were asked to lead a retreat for Ryan's school.   And we were just blown away by what you were learning, what you were experiencing, and then especially how you talked about growing in faith and really building a life of relationship with God and your kids. So, do you mind kind of just sharing us a little synopsis of that talk and what that looked like?   Chris Allen: (11:25 - 19:12) Yes, I'd be happy to. But first, I feel like the audience should know that most of my calls with your girls in the van are Uncle Chris trying to sell them a pizza or order a pizza with random things on it or making up like random songs or being a random character. So, it's mostly joking conversation.   And I'm not actually their uncle. We've just given me that title because we're close. But yeah, that's most of our conversations.   But yeah, I got invited to be the speaker at the fifth-grade retreat for my son's class. So, it was like a three-day retreat for their grade at his school. And as I was wrestling with like, okay, well, what, you know, what am I going to share?   I don't do that sort of thing that often. So, I'm usually excited when I get the opportunity to, but was just kind of sorting out, all right, what, like, God, what do you want to share with them? And this thought, actually, I should say, this was planned way in advance, and like, like, six to eight months in advance.   And it was kind of like in the back of my mind for a lot of months. And I had nothing like I had no clarity about what I was gonna talk about. And of course, you know, as you get closer and closer, you know, it starts to like, be a little bit more on your mind.   But I kept coming back to this thought of like, no, like, you know, God will bring clarity when he's ready. And trying to hold on to that thought. And then as we got like two weeks out, this thought just came, it was like, what if they began a conversational life with God at fifth grade?   Like, I've been working on this project that's kind of about how to help adults develop a conversational life with God. And before this moment, like I had not put these two opportunities together. But once that thought came, like, it just lit me up.   Because obviously, I have three kids that are kind of in that stage. And, you know, we're constantly pursuing them spiritually and trying to help them explore who God is. But that's not necessarily easy.   And obviously, trying to help them develop their own life with God, which is not easy, you know, they're kids, and they see things differently. And so for me, it was like, wow, what if they started now? You know, for adults, I think it's really hard.   Like prayer can mean a lot of things. I think most adults feel like prayer or conversation with God is somewhat hard. It's something they struggle with, typically something they want more of, but maybe don't feel super successful in.   So, the thought was, you know if you start in fifth grade, what would that change? Um, so I kind of went on a journey of trying to think about how could I help them? How could I help them explore this?   How could I help them start a conversational life with God? And that that kind of ended up being, you know, what the series of talks that I gave throughout the retreat were. So, my second thing was around like, if you want to hear him, you've got to cultivate wonder, which I'll come back to in just a second.   And then my third thing is, was teaching them to pay attention to their thought life, which we can dive into more. But the wonder piece, it may not be obvious, like why wonder, you know, why is that important? Um, so let me just speak to that for a second.   So, uh, the way I like to think about wonder is if you've ever been snorkeling in like the ocean, ideally in really clear water, uh, there's this moment, like, right. So, like you go out on a boat, you get to the spot where you're going to snorkel, you've got all your gear, you get in the water. And there's this moment where you're, you're about to go underwater, but before you do your head's still above the water, right.   And in this moment, you're like so close to beginning to see this whole new world that's underneath the water. Uh, but for this moment, your eyeline is above the water and you're really like, that's all you see. Like you really, you really can't, like, if you look down, you just see kind of like this fuzzy picture, right.   This distorted kind of water picture. Uh, but you can see for miles and miles across the top of the water, you see the sky, like there's so much above the water that you can see. Right.   And then you put your goggles on, and you drop your head down like six inches. And all of a sudden there's this whole other world, uh, that you really didn't have access to before that moment, right. You couldn't really see what was going on down there until you put your head under the water.   Uh, but then all of a sudden you start to see, you know, depths of the ocean. Uh, you know, reefs, all these, you know, different colors, all these different fish, wildlife, you know. Um, and then the same is kind of true when you're underwater. Like if you go underwater and look up, you can like see a vague color of the sky, but it's kind of all distorted.   So, I like this analogy because it kind of, it's like you almost have like two totally separate kingdoms, right? Like the underwater world and the above water world, they are right next to each other. There is this point at which they touch, but they operate so differently.   Like, you know, everything underwater is different, right? You can't breathe, like oxygen is different. Uh, you know, uh, the way you move is different.   You got to swim, you can't walk. Like the way things work underwater is different than how they work out of water. And I think the kingdom of God in the kingdom of earth is kind of similar.   Like there is a threshold at which they touch, but they, they operate so differently. Like the kingdom of God is just different. It's different than what we know in the kingdom of earth.   So essentially, uh, I kind of see like all of life is us, you know, trying to, or working towards participating with God in the kingdom. His kingdom, uh, while we are operating here on earth and the kingdom of earth. Um, and so wonder for me is, is like the goggles, uh, that help us move back and forth between kingdom of earth and kingdom of God. Uh, like when you put the goggles on, you know, you can, you can open your eyes underwater depending on the water, uh, but you can see so much better with, with goggles.   And so, um, wonder for me is like, is the vehicle that helps me move towards the kingdom of God. So, um, I'll, I'll, I'll share more about kind of like how I talked with the kids about that, but God speaks to his kids. If you want to hear them cultivate wonder.   And then lastly, pay attention to your thoughts. Uh, so that's, that's kind of what we talked about.   Laura Dugger: (19:14 - 21:09) And now a brief message from our sponsor. Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka has been owned and operated by the Birchie family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Steven's grandfather, Sam Leman opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.   If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. 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You can also call them at 309-467-2351.   Thanks for your sponsorship.    Well, and I love all of those. So let's just slow it down and kind of go through all three, beginning with that first statement that you make that God speaks to his kids.   And from previous conversations, I know that Mark and I agree with you on that, but not everybody does. Even those who are in the faith community may not agree that God is still speaking to his children. And so, what would you say is the basis for your belief on that?   Chris Allen: (21:11 - 23:18) Yeah, that's a big question. Well, you know, I think, I think it's pretty clear in scripture. Like, you know, we have in John 10 where he says, “I'm the good shepherd.   I know my sheep and my sheep will know, they'll know my voice. They listen to me.” Like, and if you read that section, it's not only that, like, he speaks, it's that like, it almost sounds like it's easy.   Like the sheep don't have to work to know who their master is like, or the shepherd is like, they know his voice. you know, like when the shepherd calls, the sheep can instantly know if it's his voice or not. you know, quick, funny story. I wasn't planning on telling you, but my wife is an identical twin. And when we first started dating her and her twin shared a phone, a cell phone.   So we're in college, we start dating. I would call my girlfriend, not knowing if she was going to answer the phone or if her sister was going to answer the phone. And I had to know, just based on the tone of their voice, which one it was could get in big trouble if I get this wrong.   Right. So, you know, I learned, I learned her voice. Right.   And the same is true, obviously, with like our kids, like they can tell the difference between your voice and some other parents voice. Right. Did you always get it right?   Did I always get it right? There was a few times where it was a little hard. Usually a lot of times, like there was context clues, you know, like just by the way they would talk to me, but sometimes like Rebecca would answer and just say like, “Hey, and you know.” it's like, that's all I got to work with is a “Hey, you know”?   And, you know, I wasn't quite sure for a moment. So, I would ask a question to get more talking going, and then I would figure out who this was. So, yeah.   Mark Dugger: (23:19 - 23:21) That's good. Sorry, I derailed you there.   Laura Dugger: (23:22 - 23:44) I'll bring us back because I think that's so profound, even how you said context clues. So, I'll bring it back. You were talking first, John 10:14.   “I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me”. And then also a few verses later in 27, where he says, “my sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me.”   Chris Allen: (23:47 - 25:06) Yeah, I think. And then I think also like Jesus modeled this throughout his whole life. Like we would, you know, I and the Father are one, He would often retreat for time with the Father.   He seemed very clear on what the Father was saying. I mean, I realized there's a divinity gap between looking at how Jesus operated and maybe how we are. But then He also says, “like, it's better for Me to leave because I'm going to send my Helper, the Holy Spirit.”   And I think we see in that language, an even more intimate relationship. Like Jesus is in, like God is in us, you know? So, I don't think like when I study scripture, I don't think God intended for it to be hard for us to hear Him.   Which is why, you know, I'm interested in this topic. And as a lot of people that I interact, do struggle with that, and I struggle with that in my own life. I don't want to just accept that, you know?   So that's kind of what motivates me in this topic. It gets me excited to talk about it.   Mark Dugger: (25:09 - 25:12) That's cool. You have something else you wanted to say?   Chris Allen: (25:13 - 31:40) Well, I was kind of going back to the retreat. So, I think, you know, one of the biggest hurdles when I was in with the kids, as well as I think with us, even as adults, is first just acknowledging that we don't notice everything. Like there's things happening around us that we just simply don't notice.   If you're like me, like I feel like I'm fairly observant. And I do notice a lot of things. And I typically kind of feel like I'm right about things, you know, or I feel like my take is kind of on point.   It can be hard to admit this, but the reality is like there's so much happening around us that we actually don't notice. So, when I was talking to the kids, this was like the first thing that I tried to establish. So, I had this opening slide that said, if you're reading this, put your finger on your nose.   And so, as I come up to talk, I mean, I'm just introducing myself for the first time. Hey, everyone, I'm so glad to be here. My name is Chris. Mr. Chris, you know, and I'm starting to talk to them, you know, leading into our time together. The whole time behind me is this slide. If you're reading this, put your finger on your nose. And so, as I'm talking, you know, certain kids started putting their finger on their nose, but as I went on for like five or 10 minutes, right.   And in the end, you know, maybe a third of them had their finger on their nose. And so, I was like, you know, the first thing I want to establish with us together is an idea that there's things happening around you that you do not notice. And to convince you that that is true.   I want you to look around and notice your friends who have their finger on their nose. And the reason is because of the slide behind me that you haven't noticed yet. Right.   And so, it was a really fun way just to help them go like, oh, interesting. I guess I don't notice everything. And then we kind of moved to this idea of taking on a posture of curiosity.   And so, I was like, I want you to imagine that we or I was like, does anybody know a name of a famous detective? You know, they're shouting out names and stuff. So, we landed on Sherlock Holmes.   OK, well, Sherlock Holmes was here in the room with us, and he was trying to solve a mystery. What do you think he would do? And, you know, hands start going up.   He'd look for clues. Like, yeah, that's right. He'd look around.   You know, he's trying to figure out clues to solve the mystery. Right. And so, cultivating this posture of curiosity of like, OK, if things are happening around me that I don't notice.   And I want to notice them, like, what would that look like? I've got to start getting curious about my life, about the things that are already in it. And why are they there?   And so that's really kind of at the root of this idea of cultivating wonder is looking at your life and the things that are already in it and wondering about them. I'll give you an example. Our oldest, Ryan, is going into middle school, a transition which there's been a little bit of energy about in our house.   But near the end of fifth grade, Ryan was a little bit unsure what school he wanted to go to. He wasn't sure if he wanted the school that they are in which goes K through 12. So, he had the option of staying there.   But he also had the option of potentially moving to a different school. And he had some friends that are going to move. And that was kind of a catalyst for a lot of the conversation.   So, for a lot of that time, you know, just to be transparent, there was a lot of worry and anxiety as we were trying to discern, like, which school should he go to? And, you know, you've got layers that you've got my take on, you've got Rachel's take on it, you've got Ryan's take on it, right? And all of course, his parents, like, you know, we don't want to just make a call and force him, you know. We really want him to be bought in.   And at the same time, we have a sense of what we think. And so for a while, we were just kind of doing what I call wandering. Wwe were just wandering around within this topic, like, you know, Rachel would feel anxious about certain things, I would feel certain things, you know, Ryan's feeling certain things. And we're just kind of ping ponging around, wandering around.   And then one day, it finally started to shift towards wonder for me. And it was just like, you know, I wonder what God is up to in Ryan's life. Like, I wonder what God has in mind for Ryan, as he's moving into middle school.   I wonder which environment might be best for him, you know, to shape him in this next season. And instead of like latching on to the pieces that we're maybe concerned about and obsessing about those or thinking about those, just moving towards wonder, even though it doesn't solve anything, it doesn't change anything, like the situation is still the same. But it begins to change how I hold that thing.   And before I know it, I am interacting with my Father God about this thing that I was just worried about. And so, it's like this transformation of taking the, because here's the thing, this thing is already happening in my life. I'm already spending energy on it.   Like, why not let it be the catalyst for how I'm going to interact with God? And so cultivating wonder, curiosity, why is this happening? What is God up to?   As I mentioned already, for me, it's kind of been the gateway for me to put on goggles and to begin to see more of why things might be happening. Or what God's up to and just hold them differently than I was previously.   Mark Dugger: (31:40 - 31:55) So, I love this topic and thinking about it. How can we then disciple our children to listen to God and know for themselves, like, and recognize when they're actually hearing from the Holy Spirit?   Chris Allen: (31:56 - 39:42) Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I don't think there's a perfect formula.   I think it's something we just cultivate. Some of that's going to depend on the individual. I think each child's going to be a little bit different, but I think this idea of starting to notice things is a key one and just helping them think about or acknowledge that they're not going to see everything.   Another little tool that I use with the students was those magic eye things. I don't know if you remember this from our childhood, but they had books and posters with these pictures of, like, when you look at it from a distance, it's just like a lot of little random things or like a confusing drawing at most. But if you look at it a certain way, right, you start to see this picture within the picture.   Right. And so, we used that. It was awesome.   We had like a contest to see who could see it first and they got prizes and stuff. But you know, it's basically like we have to fix our eyes. Right.   We have to learn how to see the unseen, essentially, in the same way. I mean, those posters are actually a little tricky for a lot of people. Like if you don't see it, you don't see it.   Like, you know, you have to learn a certain like once you get the hang of it and you position yourself in relationship to it just right. Right. You can start to see like the horse or whatever jump off the page.   But, you know, learning to see what is unseen is not easy. But here's the really, really cool part that I think is really important for kids. It's like God made them for this.   And, you know, not just kids like us to like God made us for this. Your mind is already doing the things that is needed for this. And so, at the retreat to help them like understand what I mean by this, I basically wanted to show them all the things that they already know that they never learned.   And you may not know what I mean by that, but basically we played this game where I had all these logos from different famous brands. But I intentionally chose brands that were like adult brands, like insurance, Allstate, you know, State Farm. And so, we had their slogans or their logos in some cases, and they had to guess what it was.   They knew them all. And it's like, you know, I would make jokes, of course, in between they get off. They got Allstate.   And I'm like, I would go up to the kids who guessed it right. I'd be like, so tell me, do you have auto insurance with Allstate? Or is it home insurance?   What is what's your coverage amount? You know, what is your policy like? Just to drive home the point, it's like, you know, they're not a customer.   There's no reason they should know who Allstate is. But they are watching TV, they're driving around, they're doing different things in life. And of course, they have absorbed, their mind has learned what Allstate is without them even trying, right.   And so, your mind is doing a lot of this work already. It's already noticing everything around you. It's already learning and processing all this information.   Dallas Willard talks about kind of the role of the mind. A lot of times, we think of the mind as a generator of thoughts. And this is a pretty big position or adjustment that I think is important.   But instead of viewing the mind as a generator of thoughts, viewing it more as a processor of thoughts. Because reality is like, you didn't make up Allstate, you didn't make up the brand, the kid didn't make up the brand. You just processed it, you know, and that's what your mind is doing with most information.   And so when we start to view the mind as a processor, you now have a category for okay, there's all these other things that are basically submitting things to our minds. And you know, that's all the things we've been talking about, right? That's billboards, that's TV, that's us, like we're submitting thoughts to our kids' minds.   But you know, everything they read, everything they look, everything around them is constantly submitting thoughts to their minds. And their mind is just processing away. But it does it all automatically, like that's what the mind was made for.   So, for me, the kind of good news in all this, even though I think some of these thoughts can sound kind of foreign, or maybe hard to go figure out, it really is how we were designed. Like it's, you know, God designed our minds to interact with him. He designed our minds to be able to recognize thoughts that are coming from him.   So, when we shift the mind to a processor, really, that point is just about learning to notice those thoughts, okay, as they come in, right? And as you start to notice them, you can notice, you know, kind of the nature of them or the characteristic of them. And God, the thoughts that God might be presenting to your mind versus the thoughts that other sources might be presenting to your mind, over time starts to become clearer and clearer and clearer.   So maybe just like a practical example would be that, like, sometimes when we're processing things with our kids, if they're feeling a certain way, I might ask them, like, hey, what are you thinking about this? Or what's the most, like, what's the last thought you had about this? And it's like, oh, I'm worried, you know, I was thinking about, you know, my buddy, how he won't like this thing, you know. And it's like, oh, okay, that's why you don't want to go, you know, to that place, because your buddy doesn't like it. You know, it's like, but oftentimes, I will go to the, I'll go to thoughts, and ask them about their thoughts, what's the most recent thought to understand what emotions might be happening now. But I think even just talking about thoughts as a thing, right?   Like, what thought did you have, is really helpful to start, because a lot of times, I think the default is we kind of like assume we are our thoughts, we are one with our thoughts. And this can get really dangerous. I think, especially for young men, but really for all of us, because we have a lot of thoughts that are not honoring to God or to each other, right?   And so, if those are me, then that says a lot about who I am, right? So separating ourselves from our thoughts, positioning the mind as the processor of thoughts, not only gives room for the idea that God is presenting thoughts to our minds, but it also gives room for the idea that the enemy or the world or these other things are presenting thoughts to our minds. So just because we might have that thought doesn't mean it's us, which is a big thing as well.   Laura Dugger: (39:43 - 40:52) I love that because, okay, so going back to that first point, so God speaks to His children, and I think it's helpful for me just to have that articulated. That has been my experience, that one of the ways God speaks to me is through my thoughts, and so sharing that with our children as well. And something, when I'm verbally processing then later, if I'm wondering and I'm questioning, where did this thought come from?   Where did this originate? Mark's question to me will always be, whose voice is that? And I think it's another way of what you're saying, because it could be culture, it could be God, it could be the enemy's voice, and that it is through our thoughts.   But then if we are now, you've recommended also thinking about what our thoughts are. So, thinking about our thinking and pursuing that listening stance. So that kind of leads into the next point where you share that you say, if you want to hear Him, cultivate wonder.   So, can you just elaborate on that?   Chris Allen: (40:55 - 45:09) Yes. So well, let me also mention, so I mentioned Dallas Willard, he has like a quote that I really love around this. And I'll just go ahead and say it for those that might be thinking it, like, did you really present all this to kids?   Yes, I did. I wrestled so much going into this with like, this is too much, like it's too deep, it's too much content. I almost changed a lot of the talk, like literally like five minutes before it.   But I kind of landed on this, you know what, and there was a lot of adults in the room, it wasn't aimed at them, but it was just like, my job is to just throw it out there. And like, if one kid just grabs onto something, you know, so yes, I did. I did give this to kids, but I realized it's a lot.   So, but Willard says, he says, generally, it is much more important to cultivate the quiet inward space of a constant listening than to always be approaching God for specific direction. And he goes on to say, in the still small voice of God, we are given a message that bears the stamp of his personality quite clearly. And in a way, we will learn to recognize it.   How the message comes, this is kind of the biggest part right here: how the message comes is diminished almost to the vanishing point, taking the form of thoughts that are our thoughts, though these thoughts are not from us. And so, when I first read this, it was like, oh my gosh, like, I think I've experienced that. But he is putting words to something I, you know, maybe hadn't fully acknowledged that like, this, this is God speaking to me, you know. So, I think a lot of times we, we write off our thoughts as just like, oh, it's just my lunch, you know, or whatever. But I, I really believe, and Willard, you know, believes that one of the primary ways that God speaks to his people, and when we say children, I don't mean children in this case, not like the age of someone, but anyone, um, any person, like, this is a, at least a huge part of how God speaks to them is, is through their thought life.   And so, for me, like, as I, as I've started to walk in this, and, um, take, pay more attention to my thoughts, and then actually, like, hold them like, okay, well, what if this was God speaking? You know, it's, it's changed my personal interaction with God, um, for sure. So, I think for most people, if you're not already practicing this, it can feel inaccessible.   It can feel hard. It's like, oh my gosh, like, are you telling me that I have, like, I have to change everything. Like, I have to start recognizing all my, like, if you're not already doing that, um, and I think that's where cultivate wonder comes in. Is moving towards just a posture of curiosity, moving towards a posture of wonder, of, um, when you start to notice a thought, like, just hold it out there.   It's like, oh, that's interesting. I just had that thought. Hmm.   And you just think about it. You just wonder about it, right? You don't really have to do anything.   Like in the beginning of this, you don't have to do anything with it. Like, just look at it, hold it, name it, and just wonder about it. Like, I think that is the first step.   And so, I think there's little ways we can help our kids with that, right? Just as we're helping them process things, as we're talking through things, um, we can call out what we think we hear them say, you know, and just say, Hey, it sounds like you had this thought. Is that right?   You know? Um, and just the way we, you know, they can pick things up quickly. So, the way that we teach them to process what they're thinking about, um, is a huge gift to them.   If we can help them name their thoughts and hold them out.   Laura Dugger: (45:09 - 47:07) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?   Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials, anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.   Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.    Well, and just want to speak to some of this as well. So, when you were sharing about children, meaning more than actual age children, I was thinking back.   Our oldest daughter, Selah was baptized a couple of years ago and a scripture that was really meaningful to her in that process as she was writing out her testimony and just pondering the work that God had done in her life. She really was impacted by a verse I'd love to read because that's another sure way that God does speak to us is through the word of God. So, the Bible, that's always a way that we can hear from Him.   But this verse is John 8:47, and it says, “Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”   Chris Allen: (47:07 - 50:09) Well,  I think the emphasis that I would point out on that is that it's not that God is not speaking.   It's the reason you don't hear. So, I believe God's pursuing people even that aren't following Him. And even in our case, I think God pursues us even in our disobedience.   But what shifts is our ability to hear. And so, it's like we're tuning in, and that invitation exists for, I think, for all people. It's the opportunity to just tune in more to what God is up to, what He's saying, just by looking at what He's already doing in your life, what's already happening.   Just look around, pay attention, start to notice, start to name it. And like I was saying, if this feels overwhelming, which I think it definitely can, the beautiful thing is we were made for this. Our mind was made to work this way.   It's how God designed it. And one of the final ways that I pushed this across the finish line with the kids was the final logo that I had was Nike. And of course, not only did every kid in the room know the answer to what the brand was, half of them were wearing it.   But if you look back in your life, and this is what I had them do. It's like there's some moment in your life where you were not aware of Nike. You probably were already wearing it, the toddler walking around in it or something. It's all around you.   It's everywhere. Everybody else is wearing it too. You've seen tons of ads and advertisements.   It's everywhere. Yet there was some moment where you didn't know what it was. If you saw the logo, you'd be like, I don't know what that is.   And then at some point you cross this threshold where it's like all of a sudden you learn like, oh, that's Nike. And so, if you could pinpoint that moment in a kid's life, it's like in that moment, you go from like, I don't know, to like, Nike. Well, Nike didn't all of a sudden exist in that moment.   It was no more present than it was before. It was always around you. It was always active.   It was always everywhere. The only thing that changed in that moment is you became aware of it. And that's how I like to think about like what God is up to in our lives.   He is active. He's all over it. He is in your every day and every situation that we're in.   And He is inviting us to participate with Him, to notice Him, to talk with Him about it and to interact with Him through those things. But we just have to become aware of Him. And for me, I think wonder is the thing that helps me shift in that direction, just cultivating wonder.   Mark Dugger: (50:11 - 50:31) That's awesome. So you talked about with your kids, asking them and follow up questions about their thoughts. But is there any other practical ways you think about bringing this to life with our kids to help them kind of shape some of this line of thinking?   Chris Allen: (50:34 - 52:38) Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, the other kind of analogy that I've used with my kids as well is where's Waldo? So, my spiritual director, Jeannie Hoover, who's amazing, who lives in Illinois as well, she actually was the one who used this analogy in our conversations first.   But you know, where's Waldo's fun? You get the book or the posters and you're looking for Waldo, right? But you have no chance of finding him.   First, you can't find Waldo unless one, you believe he exists. Two, you know what he looks like. And three, you look for him.   And so that's kind of the starting point. I think an easy starting point with kids, plus you can use the Waldo book and they love it. But they have to believe God exists.   They have to know what He looks like, and they got to start looking for Him. Obviously, we can play a very tangible role in helping them kind of learn what He looks like and helping them look for Him. I think one easy way is like, you know, some kind of daily routine, as maybe you're putting them to bed or debriefing the day.   Or you might ask a simple question like, you know, did you notice God anywhere today? Or was there anything that happened in your life today, you know, where you noticed God? Or you can also go, I think a lot of times we can find Him in the things that we're struggling with.   So, is there anything that happened today that hurt you or didn't sit well with you? But as you help them process that, right, you're kind of looking for where is God in the story? What is he up to?   And helping them connect those dots.   Mark Dugger: (52:40 - 52:41) Oh, go ahead.   Laura Dugger: (52:41 - 52:44) Oh, you go first. I wonder if we're on the same thought.   Mark Dugger: (52:44 - 54:00) I was thinking, I was recently, this is helpful for me personally, but I was recently frustrated about a day or something that happened recently. And I was just, you know, going through the iterations of why this thing caused me frustration. And, you know, it caused me to take out frustration on others that were around me and impacted others.   And then my friend was just casually kind of listening to me and just said, what do you think God's calling you to do in the midst of this? And it was just such a simple yet profound question that I hadn't even considered. Like I wasn't even thinking about God being active and involved in this frustration that was going on in my life because I was so consumed by it.   But yet when I take that moment, I think him asking that question to me, helped me step back out kind of that 10,000 foot view and just say, huh, what, where is God right now in this process? And what is he potentially trying to show me in the midst of this frustration? And I think that's something that our kids can really understand too.   They can really grasp onto that concept. So, I think that's been a helpful one for me.   Laura Dugger: (54:00 - 54:58) You're both stirring all these ideas because I also think something that Mark's started recently on a Sunday on Sabbath, he loves to go around the table with our kids. And the youngest is five, as you know, Chris, and he'll ask all of us, where did you see God at work in your life this week? And they are able from a young age to think back on their life.   And I think that God does manifest himself to them. But then whether this is a question then for children or adults or everyone, even a conversation that Mark and I have had with you and Rachel before, where when you're going back to something that's happened in the past, asking yourself of that situation, if I go back to that scene in my mind, where was Jesus within that? And that's a pretty profound experience, I would say as well.   Chris Allen: (54:59 - 56:56) Yeah. Well, I think another something that I would encourage people to think about is this is not something that we have to figure out. That's really God's role is to teach us how to do this.   I think throughout scripture, the posture of curiosity or wonder is encouraged. Just ask, just seek, just knock. And you will find it.   The door will be open to you. And so, I don't think God asks us to figure out how to hear His voice or figure out how He speaks. I think if we come with just a posture of curiosity, which honestly, even that alone takes a little bit of work on our side, right?   But if we just cultivate some curiosity about what he's up to, my experience has been that you will start to notice. If you just focus on noticing and being curious, you will start to notice Him. I think sometimes we focus on the outcome.   We think the intimacy, like if I could hear God well, if I had a conversational life with God, I would experience intimacy with Him, right? But I think the truer thing is that a lot of the intimacy is in the learning. It's in the process.   We just show up, we just cultivate curiosity. And as God teaches us, a lot of the intimacy comes out of the teaching. Like, oh my gosh, that was God.   I just saw Him in a way I hadn't before. And so I think hopefully it takes some of the pressure off and allows us just to start to look for Him.   Mark Dugger: (56:57 - 57:13) Yeah. This conversation, I think, has been so helpful just to begin the process of thinking about this. Is there anything else that you want to add or help this message stick or bring home deep within us?   Chris Allen: (57:16 - 58:07) I think I would just say, if you're someone who maybe is not sure that God is speaking, I would just challenge you to pretend that He is. Just try it. Just start looking around, start noticing, and just see what happens.   In my experience, God is fully capable of making Himself known to us. If we just take a step in his direction with curiosity or wonder, He will reveal himself to you. He'll start showing you things.   And it's not constant, right? But over time, your faith will grow that He is speaking, that He does speak, and it will start to transform how you interact with Him.   Laura Dugger: (58:10 - 58:31) I love it. And I'm going to kind of summarize. Okay, so God speaks to his kids.   We get to participate and cultivate wonder. And a practical thing was to pay attention to our thoughts. With all of this too, Chris, you've alluded to a project.   Do you want to share any more information about that?   Chris Allen: (58:31 - 59:54) Oh, man. Yeah. So yeah, I've been working on a book for about a year and a half now with my spiritual director, Jamie, who I mentioned, really for adults about wonder.   I think we activate and use wonder a lot as kids, especially when we were kids. I think kids are better, more naturally jumping into wonder. The pool of life for adults is away from wonder.   It's towards the other side of the brain. It's towards be productive, be on time, be on task, get it done. And the more we fill our lives up with things, which as you all, like in this season that we're in, life is very busy, wonder just so easily gets squeezed out.   And so the project I've been working on is really aimed at helping adults cultivate wonder in their life again, specifically around how they interact with God, which probably no surprise at this point in the conversation. But yeah, it's so exciting. I mean, we're down the road, things are starting to solidify, and we got a good bit of work left to do, but I'm really excited about what that will be.   Laura Dugger: (59:55 - 1:00:15) Well, then we look forward to a part two of this conversation when that's further along. We'd love to have you back, but you are already familiar that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Chris, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Chris Allen: (1:00:16 - 1:00:57) Oh man, well, I think I might be a broken record on this one. So it's probably a summary statement here, but if wonder is our goggles into the kingdom, the question is how can we put them on more? And so, my encouragement is to leverage the things that are already happening in your life to help you cultivate wonder.   And obviously that's what the book is about. So hopefully maybe I can help some people do that more in specific ways once that's out, but that would be my Savvy Sauce.   Laura Dugger: (1:00:58 - 1:01:38) Love it. Well, I think Mark can share as well, but from the two of us, we just love you and Rachel, and Ryan, Ramsey and Harvey. And Mark and I are so grateful you have profoundly impacted us.   Just the friendship with you guys has been incredible. And also spiritually, we've learned so much from you and hopefully sharpened one another. And I appreciate the impact that the two of you have had on each other spiritually as well.   And I get to enjoy sweet fruit from your amazing and godly friendship. So, thank you for all you shared today. Thank you for your friendship.   And thank you for being our guest.   Chris Allen: (1:01:40 - 1:01:42) You're very welcome. Thanks for having me on.   Mark Dugger: (1:01:43 - 1:03:04) Yeah, I was just gonna say thanks. You know, friendship is pretty rare. And it's pretty remarkable just to think about all we've been through together.   But yet, Laura summarized it so well, but you've had such a profound impact on me, even in those years, you know, picking me up in high school ministry when we were doing those, those kinds of things together. And then we shared a mentor with Dave Pridemore, who's actually been a previous guest here on The Savvy Sauce. And just learning more about who we are in Christ.   And you've always been an encouragement to me. And that's just been such a blessing in my life. Just to know that there's always that constant friendship.   And no matter what goes on, no matter how, you know, being states apart, you know, sometimes we're not always talking all the time, but it's always nice to know that you, it's always the same. It's like we picked up right where we left off. And I think that's, that's deeper than just the friendship, but it's the bond that we have in Christ.   And that's, you know, you've challenged me in this way, just to think about wonder, this isn't something that comes to me naturally. And so I'm just very thankful for this conversation. And then just to be able to share some of the things that we've talked about privately, but be able to share with this audience today.   So thanks for doing that.   Chris Allen: (1:03:05 - 1:03:06) Absolutely.   Laura Dugger: (1:03:07 - 1:06:50) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.