Podcasts about norm geisler

Introduction- Chad and Brian discuss their favorite and most memorable debates between Christian apologists/philosophers and atheists/skepticsChad's Debate Picks1. James Crossley vs. William Lane Craig - Was Jesus Raised from the Dead? (2012)   - Highlights Craig's case for the resurrection based on postmortem appearances    - Contrasting styles of young Crossley vs distinguished Craig2. Jeffrey Lowder vs. Frank Turek - What Better Explains Reality: Naturalism or Theism? (2016)     - Appreciates Lowder's formal case for naturalism reminiscent of Craig   - Admires the cordiality and clash of Lowder's logic vs Turek's rhetoric  3. Christopher Hitchens vs. William Lane Craig   - The "prizefight" lead-up and spectacle surrounding this legendary debate   - Contrasts Craig's arguments vs Hitchens' emotional appeals4. Braxton Hunter vs. Matt Dillahunty (2019)   - Hunter exposes issues in Dillahunty's epistemology    - Effectively argues for Kalam cosmological argument and argument from free will5. Craig vs Francisco Ayala - Is Intelligent Design Viable? (2013)   - Craig debates an award-winning evolutionary scientist   - Craig has to think on his feet against unfamiliar arguments from Ayala6. Chris Date vs. Dale Tuggy - Is Jesus Human and Not Divine?     - High-level, rich, respectful debate between able defenders of their positions   - Highlights Date's ancient bird imagery argument for Christ's deity7. Paul Draper vs. William Lane Craig   - Craig debates a formidable philosophical adversary   - Interesting to see Craig on his heels against some unfamiliar argumentsBrian's Debate Picks  1. William Lane Craig vs. Peter Atkins   - The famous "put that in your pipe" moment where Craig lists what science can't explain2. Norm Geisler vs. Paul Kurtz on John Ankerberg Show     - Admires Geisler's rapid-fire responses to a breadth of objectionsBonus: Worst Debate - Jeff Durbin & James White vs Dr. Clark & Dan Ellis (2020)  - Dr. Clark engaged in bizarre antics like throwing books, demanding miracles  - One of the most cringeworthy debates they've seenFind links here: https://truthbomb.blogspot.com/2024/02/some-of-my-favorite-debates.html================================We appreciate your feedback.If you're on TWITTER, you can follow Chad @TBapologetics.You can follow Brian @TheBrianAutenAnd of course, you can follow @Apologetics315If you have a question or comment for the podcast, record it and send it our way using www.speakpipe.com/Apologetics315 or you can email us at podcast@apologetics315.com

Does Christianity really offer anything which is superior to other religions? Is Jesus superior to other religious or philosophical leaders? Norm Geisler answers these questions in one section of his book.

Liam Back, a deeply entrenched skeptic, had a vendetta against God fueled by personal loss. His quest to “make God pay” led him to an unexpected embrace of the Christian faith. Liam's Resources: Instagram: @standfirm_theology_apologetics Resources & authors recommended by Liam: Various books by Lee Strobel, author On Guard, William Lane Craig I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist, Norm Geisler, Frank Turek The Story of Reality, Greg Koukl Tactics, Greg Koukl

This book, written by Norm Geisler, offers valuable information and advice to a wide audience. In this podcast I go over the section dealing with the dating of the book of Daniel. Does the book contain real predictive prophecy, or was it written after the events it describes?

Norm Geisler, author of so many wonderful books, wrote this one to deal with Bible difficulties. This podcast looks at concerns people have had with the order of temptations in Matthew and Luke, whether Jesus taught the Old Testament asked people to hate their enemies, the story of the centurion who came to Jesus, why Jesus called himself the Son of Man, and several other concerns in the book of Matthew. 

This book, by noted scholar and author Norm Geisler, is a handbook on cultic misinterpretations of Bible passages. This podcast answers the question, "What is a cult?" He covers several characteristics of cults and explores the dangers of cults.

Dr. Frank Turek, a well-known Christian apologist returns to the Bible and Theology Matters podcast to discuss arguments for Christianity from the contents of the influential book he co-authored with the late Dr. Norm Geisler.

Dr. Frank Turek, well-known apologist joins the Bible and Theology Matters podcast to discuss the contents of the influential book he co-authored with the late Dr. Norm Geisler. In this episode, Dr. Turek provides clear and convincing arguments for the existence of God.

Norm Geisler and Frank Turek, authors of this important book, start with the concept of truth--What is truth? What is a self-defeating statement in regards to truth? Can truth be known?

Norm Geisler tackles four major questions about the Bible in this book--Who wrote it? Which books belong in it? Has it been accurately preserved? Has it been adequately translated? I look at a chapter that explores evidences for the inspiration of the Bible. In other words, what is the evidence that the Bible has divine authority?

Norm Geisler offers a defense of the Bible against charges by Muslims.

A new MP3 sermon from Alpha and Omega Ministries is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: Radio Free Geneva: Frank Turek, Norm Geisler, David Allen Subtitle: The Dividing Line 2023 Speaker: Dr. James White Broadcaster: Alpha and Omega Ministries Event: Podcast Date: 1/18/2023 Length: 92 min.

Started off listening to a clip from Dr. Frank Turek with Leighton Flowers wherein Turek opines that many Reformed folks just have not thought through the ramifications of their position. He also held up Chosen But Free by Norman Geisler, so we discussed that as well. Then we moved over to comments made by Dr. David Allen in the fairly new publication titled Calvinism- A Biblical and Theological Critique, specifically on a subject we have gone in depth on before, Romans 8-28ff. Went to -the big board- and let the text speak for itself, the one thing Provisionists never seem to do. Ninety minutes today-

Started off listening to a clip from Dr. Frank Turek with Leighton Flowers wherein Turek opines that many Reformed folks just have not thought through the ramifications of their position. He also held up Chosen But Free by Norman Geisler, so we discussed that as well. Then we moved over to comments made by Dr. David Allen in the fairly new publication titled Calvinism- A Biblical and Theological Critique, specifically on a subject we have gone in depth on before, Romans 8-28ff. Went to -the big board- and let the text speak for itself, the one thing Provisionists never seem to do. Ninety minutes today-

NORM GEISLER: NOT QUALIFIED is a 2021 documentary showing around the country about one of the top Christian apologists and scholars in the last two centuries. Norm Geisler wrote more than 100 books defending the Christian faith and the Bible. He became a world-renowned mentor and source of knowledge and wisdom for many people. The movie includes clips of him teaching and of the Christian leaders discussing his influence. It also tells the story of a preacher's daughter who lost her faith then found it again by interacting with Norman Geisler's teachings and ministry.

Looked at some claims about Aquinas by Norm Geisler, including a quick look at John 13-19, and then started to respond to the second in the series from Baptist Dogmatics regarding Matthew 24-36. What is -theological- or -dogmatic- exegesis- Well, we will find out more as we continue our review and response. But not tomorrow, though we plan on doing a program at 4-30pm EDT live from ReformCon 2022- Join us then-

Looked at some claims about Aquinas by Norm Geisler, including a quick look at John 13-19, and then started to respond to the second in the series from Baptist Dogmatics regarding Matthew 24-36. What is -theological- or -dogmatic- exegesis-- Well, we will find out more as we continue our review and response. But not tomorrow, though we plan on doing a program at 4-30pm EDT live from ReformCon 2022- Join us then-

Series: All: All Authority, All Nations, All AllegianceScripture: Matthew 7:21-29 (Main); Matthew 16:15-18, John 20:31Title: How do I know that I'm saved ? (Darien Gabriel)Bottom line: I know that I'm saved when I practice what Jesus preaches, doing God's will by obeying God's word.Q. What do I want you to know? A. How to know that you are saved.Q. Why? A. Because knowing leads to confident, wise and peace-filled living.Q. What do I want you to do? A. Do God's will by obeying God's word.Q. Why? A. Because it leads to abundant, wise living now and eternal life hereafter.Discussion questions for group and personal study. 1. If not everyone who says they know Jesus iOS in fact known by Jesus, how can you know for certain that Jesus knows you? How can the church help make sure each person genuinely knows Jesus as their Lord?2. How can you know whether the authority over your life is reason, experience, tradition, or revelation?3. Examine the characteristics of the two types of wisdom from James.Is wisdom a mental, emotional, or physical trait?4. Where else in Matthew do you see Jesus warn of judgment?5. How should Christians balance salvation by grace with judgment based on obedience as Jesus teaches in this passage?6. Why is Jesus's parable of the two builders a fitting conclusion to hisSermon on the Mount?7. Read the other passages about great storms of judgment (Isa 28:16-22; Ezek 13:10-16). What are the causes of impending judgment in those contexts, and how do they compare with Matthew's context?8. What does "casual and comfortable Christianity" look like, and how does that compare to how Jesus calls his followers to live?9. In what areas of your life (finance, work, family, recreation, etc.) would you say that you were more"amazed" at Jesus's teachingsinstead of obedient to them? What can you change to be obedient in those areas?10. Since Jesus's words have divine authority, how does that affect your approach to the Bible?11. How is the obedience Jesus desires both an inward piety and an outward action? How does Scripture characterize and describe obedience in both areas?Final Questions (optional or in place of above)What is God saying to you right now? What are you going to do about it?Find our sermons, podcasts, discussion questions and notes at https://www.gracetoday.net/podcastIntroSome of you know that I went to Clemson my freshman year thinking I was a Christian. Two months later, I learned that I wasn't surrendered my life to Jesus Christ. I thought I was saved but I wasn't. What about you? Do you ever have doubts? Do you ever ask yourself whether or not you're the real deal? It's not a bad question to ask.Jesus answers this question using some shocking words. It's like he's trying to jolt the spiritually inoculated. Jesus tells us how to know you are really saved. The result should be a sense of peace, joy and confidence in who you are and how to live.Last week we looked at 2 kinds of Roads/Gates—one leading to life the other to destruction,Animals: Sheep and wolves; Prophets or disciples—one part of the flock, the other out to devour the flockTrees—one bearing good fruit, the other bad fruit and teaching falsehoodsThis week we'll look at 2 kinds of Evangelical Christians—both look and speak the part, but only one is alive inside. Like the ancient oak tree that falls in the storm and it's revealed that it was weaker than expected because the inside was rotten at the core.Foundations—one built wisely on stone is built to last while the other is built to impress or for show.Today Jesus will challenge the veracity of your faith. Jesus ends his sermon on the mount (SOTM) with a challenge to do more than just hear and be impressed by it. And notice in v. 29 that the people were very impressed by it. They noted that it was authoritative instead of just footnoted well. His aim is that people would take it to heart and be changed by it. The evidence of this would be them starting to build their lives on the lasting foundation of Jesus the Christ. The sad truth, however, is that our churches are full of false evangelical converts who rely onTheir vocabulary—we know the lingo “brother”, “fellowship” and “born again”Their social conventions—attitudes like “don't drink, smoke or chew or date girls who do”Their similar likes and dislikes—eat at Chick-fil-A, shop at Hobby Lobby, Ben & Jerry's, smirk at rainbow stickers, and make it clear to anyone who will listen what we're against.Their strong heritage—My granddaddy was a pastor; my grandmother was a missionaryTheir successful jumping through the hoops—I've been through confirmation class; I was baptized at an early age.While these things are not necessarily wrong or bad in and of themselves, the result of all of this is often inoculated people who believe that they are evangelical, bible-believing, Christ-trusting, cross-wearing, member-pledging Christians who in fact are false converts that Christ will say to at the day of judgment, “I never knew you.” “Many” are in this boat. Beware of thinking that you could not possibly be in this boat.Bottom line: I know that I'm saved when I practice what Jesus preaches, doing God's will by obeying God's word.In today's news cycle, it's not unusual to hear pundits talk about evangelical Christians as a voter block. But this can leave one shaking his head when they hear the results of the poles describing these creatures. Could it be that the culture has hijacked the word evangelical and defined it in political terms differing from the original religious terms?What is an evangelical Christian? A person who believes:The Bible is divinely inspired and infallible, and subscribes to the doctrinal formulations that teach The total depravity of humanity,The inerrancy of the Scriptures (The Bible),The substitutionary death and atonement of Christ,Salvation by unmerited grace through personal faith in Christ (not through good words),The necessity of a transformed life, The existence of a literal Heaven and Hell, And the visible personal return of Jesus Christ to set up his kingdom of righteousness. Moreover, they believe in The proclamation of the gospel and The mission of winning the world to Christ. —Evangelical Dictionary of TheologyDoes that sound like the people CNN & Fox are talking about during their election coverage? Or do they define them differently?In vv. 13-20 Jesus warns against the dangers that come from the outside. In vv. 21-27 he warns us of the dangers that come from ourselves. That is The danger of basing your salvation on lip service, andThe danger of basing your salvation on lifestyle.John Newton, the former slave trader and author of Amazing Grace said, “If I ever reach Heaven I expect to find three wonders there: 1) First, to meet some I had not thought to see there; 2) Second, to miss some I had thought to meet there; and 3) Third, the greatest wonder of all, to find myself there.”This outline is heavily influenced by Kent Hughes.I. I know I'm saved when I do his will. (7:21-23)John Stott's remarkable confession by the “many” in vv. 21-22:This confession is polite. He is called Lord which is to say “sir”. Even today, this is a courteous and tolerant way to address Jesus. This confession is orthodox. Of course, it can also mean and does mean divine rule. Context requires that we see Jesus as Lord as in divine ruler by the authority given to him by God the Father. This confession is fervent. “Lord, Lord” shows enthusiasm and zeal.This confession is public. Not a private or secret confession of faith. It's gloriously public.So what's wrong with this confession of faith? Nothing! But there is a problem. You can do any one of these and still not truly be saved. The problem is that you can confess these things in this way and still not have abundant, eternal life. How do know then? How can we tell if we are truly saved?The answer lies in the bookends of the SOTM. The SOTM begins with the beatitudes (beautiful attitudes) and ends with the application of them. That is when we practice the attitudes and following heart-felt obedience of the will of God on a regular basis, then we evidence genuine knowledge of Christ and salvation by him.Said another way, we are genuinely growing in Christ-like character and conduct on a regular basis. We are practicing the principles taught in Matt 5-7. No wonder Matthew chose this to be the first of Jesus' 5 major teaching passages in the book of Matthew!At Grace, we're all about making disciples who make disciples. But when do you know you have a disciple of Jesus Christ? When he/she is growing in being and doing like Jesus Christ. What does that look like? It looks like the words, ways and works of Jesus found in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. But you can start with the SOTM if you want a quick summary.II. I know I'm saved when I obey his word. (7:24-28) “Fool” comes from the Greek word moro from which we get our word moron.“The man who builds his house upon the shifting foundation is likened to the person who hears Jesus' words but who does not put them to practice. The man who builds his house upon the rock is likeIn this passage, we learn that 2 people can go to the same church, do the same things, believe the same things but find themselves in very different places after the storms of life and/or ultimately at the day of judgment. Both build a house that looks the same. But one cares more about the foundation and he digs deeper through the sand to the rock and builds his foundation on that. As a result, when the storms of life come, his house will stand. (Metaphorically) And when Jesus returns, Jesus will not say, “I never knew you” because he built his life on the rock-solid confession that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God and that by believing in him will have life in his name. (Matthew 16:15-18 + John 20:31)III. I know I am saved when I live based on his authority. (7:28-29)I like how Matthew ends this sermon for Jesus. He tells us what the people say which tells us two things:His words are amazing. His words are authoritative.Norm Geisler gives us 4 sources of authority that shape our decisionl-making:Reason (I think),Experience (I feel),Tradition (I have always done), andRevelation (God says in his word).Geisler adds, “one or more of these authorities will govern how we live.” Who's your authority in making decisions in life and hereafter?ConclusionBottom line: I know that I'm saved when I practice what Jesus preaches, doing God's will by obeying God's word.“Look around and be distressed; look within and be depressed; look to Jesus and be at rest.”-Corrie Ten BoomBill Murphey, my favorite e newsletter guy, shared an idea that he's heard that people die 3X in life:When their body stops working,When they're buried, and After the last time anyone says their name.I'll add a fourth. It's either whenWhen they die to self and surrender to Jesus Christ, orWhen they enter the hereafter in a real place called hell.I want you to know that abundant and eternal life is possible when we do God's will by obeying God's word. In summary,We know that we are saved when we do his will and obey his word, outwardly and inwardly, because we trust he is good, able and trustworthy. As a result we love him and gladly submit to his authority evidencing our genuine salvation. Do you believe God is good?Do you believe God is able?Do you believe God is trustworthy?Do you believe God loves you?Do you gladly submit to his authority?If you don't, then you haven't answered 1-4 with a yes yet.If you do, then you know that you're saved. Continue to walk in his grace and wisdom.So I ask you to you know that you've been saved from sin and death, shame and guilt, and hell itself? Is your life pattern to do the will of God?Is your life pattern to obey the word of God as summarized in the Sermon on the Mount?Repent and believe today! Trust him who is good, able and trustworthy! Trust him who loves you unconditionally and sacrificially through the cross of Christ. PrayOutline BibleII. JESUS' ILLUSTRATION (7:13-27)A. The two roads (7:13-14)1. The broad highway to hell (7:13): The gate is wide, and many choose this way to destruction.2. The narrow road to heaven (7:14): The gate is narrow, and only a few ever find it.B. The two animals (a condemnation of false prophets) (7:1)1. They pretend to be sheep (7:15a): They seem harmless.2. They prove to be wolves (7:15b): They tear you apart.C. The two kinds of disciples (7:21-23)1. True disciples (7:21a): On judgment day, the true disciples will be separated from the false ones.2. False disciples (7:21b-23): On judgment day, the false disciples will be condemned.a. The wondrous deeds they will say they did (7:22): They will say they prophesied, cast out demons, and performed miracles in his name.b. The wicked deeds Christ will say they did (7:21b, 23): They disobeyed the Father, and God will say he never knew them.D. The two trees (7:16-20)1. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit (7:16, 18).2. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit (7:17, 19-20).E. The two builders (7:24-27)1. The structures (7:24, 26)a. One man built his house on solid rock (7:24).b. One man built his house on shifting sand (7:26).2. The storm (7:25, 27)a. The house on the rock stood firm (7:25).b. The house on the sand fell flat (7:27).III. JESUS' DEMONSTRATIONS (7:28-29): Jesus continues to teach, amazing his listeners with his authority.References/Bibliography:“Preaching the Word” Commentary, Douglas Sean O'Donnell, Edited by Kent Hughes“Matthew” by RC Sproul“Sermon on the Mount” by Charles Quayle's“The Sermon on the Mount: Kingdom Life in a Fallen World” by Sinclair Ferguson Bible.org https://bible.org/seriespage/12-maintaining-peaceful-relationships-matthew-521-26“CSB Christ Chronological,” Holman“Jesus Manifesto” sermon series, by Darien Gabriel: https://youtu.be/x65i2tqFrXk“The Bible Knowledge Commentary” by Walvoord, Zuck (BKC)“The Bible Exposition Commentary” by Warren Wiersbe (BEC)“Exalting Jesus in Matthew” by David Platt (CCE)“Exalting Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount” by Daniel Akin (CCE)Outline Bible, D WillmingtonNIV Study Bible (NIVSB)ESV Study BibleESV Gospel Transformation Bible (GTB)"Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes" by Kenneth E. Bailey

David Geisler shares about the legacy of his father, Dr. Norman Geisler including a new movie, Not Qualified and the impact he had on many of today's top apologists and evangelists. Daily podcast, relevant articles on issues pertaining to Christians and more can be found on Stand Up For The Truth.

Norm Geisler, a well-known Christian apologist, teams up with a former Muslim to write of the fundamental beliefs of Islam and how Christians can respond to them. In this podcast, I consider their chapter on the Qur'an, which evaluates its history, prophecies, science, and literary qualities.

David Geisler shares about the legacy of his father, Dr. Norman Geisler including a new movie, Not Qualified and the impact he had on many of today's top apologists and evangelists. Daily podcast, relevant articles on issues pertaining to Christians and more can be found on Stand Up For The Truth.

David Geisler, President and Co-Founder of Norm Geisler International Ministries, and co-author of the book, Conversational Evangelism: Connecting with People to Share Jesus, with his late father, Norm Geisler, shared about the content of the film in which he has been involved called, Norm Geisler: Not Qualified, on NRB-TV on April 7, 2022.  You can learn more through normgeislerthemovie.com. For more information on NRB-TV, you can go to nrbtv.org.

David Geisler, President and Co-Founder of Norm Geisler International Ministries, and co-author of the book, Conversational Evangelism: Connecting with People to Share Jesus, with his late father, Norm Geisler, shared about the content of the film in which he has been involved called, Norm Geisler: Not Qualified, on NRB-TV on April 7, 2022.  You can learn more through normgeislerthemovie.com. For more information on NRB-TV, you can go to nrbtv.org.

This is the most up-to-date, comprehensive, and thorough defense of the Catholic Church against Protestant objections in print. This book is especially relevant as the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation draws near and discussion of the arguments made against the Church during that time in history receive renewed interest. The Case for Catholicism answers arguments put forward by early Reformers like Luther and Calvin as well as contemporary defenders of Protestantism like Norm Geisler and R.C. Sproul. It provides a meticulous defense of the biblical and historical nature of Catholic doctrines from Scripture and church history. Finally, in both answering Protestant objections to Catholicism and in providing evidence for the Faith, The Case for Catholicism cites modern Protestant scholars who question Reformation assumptions and show how evidence from Scripture and church history support aspects of Catholic theology. This book is divided into four sections, with each answering a key question Christians have asked about the nature of their faith. Those key questions are: What is my authority? What is the Church? How am I saved? Who belongs to the body of Christ? The Case for Catholicism will become a reliable, resource for any Catholic who desires a well-researched, readable, and persuasive answer to Protestant arguments made against the Catholic faith. https://www.ignatius.com/The-Case-for-Catholicism-P242.aspx

Norm Geisler, a well-known speaker and author, took on the challenge of writing an introduction to the entire Bible. I look at a chapter of his that discusses the Old Testament Apocrypha.

Norm Geisler and Ron Rhodes take on various groups that twist Bible passages to suit their doctrines. Does God have a physical body? Are we saved by our works? Are the wicked annihilated? I look at their responses to these questions that challenge historic Christian teachings.

When faced with the choice to save himself or save millions of people in “Captain America: First Avenger,” Steve Rogers decides to go down with the plane. On the phone with Peggy, he knew what he was giving up. David tells a story of someone else who did something similar, and he and Ellen discuss why they would or would not do the same thing given a similar choice and how thoughts of the afterlife play into that decision. John 10:3-4,14-15, I John 4:13, I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist by Frank Turek and Norm Geisler https://amzn.to/3nD0i2g, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary Habermas https://amzn.to/3ly9guT, Assurance by J. C. Ryle https://amzn.to/3Aj9z2T, Basic Christianity by John Stott https://amzn.to/3loni28 INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/a_moon_in_the_dark/WEBSITE: amooninthedark.com

SES co-founder, Dr. Norman Geisler, is essentially the grandfather of the revitalization of classical apologetics. Join us for this discussion of his legacy with SES alum, and long-time associate of Dr. Geisler, Dr. William (Bill) Roach. He is the author of the new book, "Defending Evangelicalism: The Apologetics of Norman L. Geisler."

Norm Geisler was instumental in the ministry of Ravi Zacharias. When Norm died Ravi spoke at his Memorial Service. This past week Norm's son, David, shared an open letter with the Ravi Zacharias Ministry. Every ministry should consider the concerns outlined in this letter.

In this episode Leah and Andrew explore the concept of apologetics and those who practiced apologetics in the scriptures and in early church history. They talk about apologetics in the ministries of the prophet Elijah and the Apostle Paul as well as early Christian apologists Justin Martyr and Tertullian. In the midst of studying historic apologists, the concept of Gnosticism is unpacked as an example of the need for apologetics in early Christianity.Support: All profits go back into creating the podcast.Patreon:www.patreon.com/apologeticssimplifiedTeespring Shop:https://teespring.com/stores/apologetics-simplifiedLet’s get social!Follow me on…Instagram: www.instagram.com/apologeticssimplifiedFacebook: www.facebook.com/apologeticssimplifiedTwitter: www.twitter.com/ApoloSimplifiedResource mentioned in episode:Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics by Norm Geisler: https://amzn.to/32m13jwGotQuestions.orgInvitation to Church History: World by Dr. John Hannah: https://amzn.to/2Vfam3r

How to Explain the Trinity to a Child How do you explain the Trinity to a child? For that matter, how do you explain the Trinity to anyone? The first thing you need to know is that the Bible never uses the word “Trinity.” The word Trinity captures the various ways the Bible talks about the nature of God. Also, the Trinity is one of the essential and foundational doctrines of the Christian faith. You can’t have Christianity without it. I want to share a clear and memorable way to understand what the Bible teaches about the Trinity. I first came across this illustration from Norm Geisler. There is one what and three who’s. There is one God and three persons. The what refers to nature of God that all three persons share. The belief that there is only one God is clearly taught in Scripture. For example, “Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! – Deuteronomy 6:4 That there are three persons is also clearly taught in Scripture. We see all three persons described and at work in various passages, including 2 Cor. 13:14: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Each is a distinct person. Three who’s. These are just two of many verses we could share. If the Bible claimed there was one God and three Gods, that would be a logical contradiction (and obviously false)....

How to Explain the Trinity to a Child How do you explain the Trinity to a child? For that matter, how do you explain the Trinity to anyone? The first thing you need to know is that the Bible never uses the word “Trinity.” The word Trinity captures the various ways the Bible talks about the nature of God. Also, the Trinity is one of the essential and foundational doctrines of the Christian faith. You can't have Christianity without it. I want to share a clear and memorable way to understand what the Bible teaches about the Trinity. I first came across this illustration from Norm Geisler. There is one what and three who's. There is one God and three persons. The what refers to nature of God that all three persons share. The belief that there is only one God is clearly taught in Scripture. For example, “Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! – Deuteronomy 6:4 That there are three persons is also clearly taught in Scripture. We see all three persons described and at work in various passages, including 2 Cor. 13:14: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Each is a distinct person. Three who's. These are just two of many verses we could share. If the Bible claimed there was one God and three Gods, that would be a logical contradiction (and obviously false)....

Click here to listen to Munificentissimus Deus, by Pope Pius XII (PATRONS ONLY) --- Happy feast of the assumption of Mary, y’all! Today I talk a little about the assumption of Mary. I respond to what Protestant apologist Norm Geisler has to say regarding Aquinas and the dogma of the assumption. And then (….drum roll….), I share a portion of a brand new audio book, Pope Pius XII’s apostolic constitution in which he defines as dogma Mary’s assumption into Heaven

Some skeptics claim that Christianity stole its fundamental claims from preexisting pagan religions. In this episode, Kenny responds to this claim, making it clear that there is absolutely no scholarly or authentic evidence for any such assertions or conclusions. Kenny outlines some of the examples that some skeptics bring up, showing clearly how we know that such attacks are false. Kenny even makes the point that there are no major contemporary atheistic scholars making any such claims, because they lack any credibility of any kind. These sorts of attacks do not come from respected scholars, but instead they typically come from the world of pseudo-scholarship or from some person who simply has some sort of personal vendetta again Christianity. Resources Did Christianity copy from pagan or other religions? [Article] Is Jesus a myth? [Article] Was Christianity plagiarized from pagan myths? [Article] Jesus Wasn’t a Pagan God: Debunking Zeitgeist and Religulous [YouTube Video] Zeitgeist Debunked: Jesus Is Not A Copy Of Pagan Gods [YouTube Video] Jesus vs. Horus [YouTube Video] Jesus vs. Zoroaster [YouTube Video] Jesus vs. Asclepius [YouTube Video] Jesus vs. Tammuz [YouTube Video] Jesus vs. Romulus [YouTube Video] Jesus vs. Buddha [YouTube Video] Bart Ehrman & Robert Price Debate - Did Jesus Exist? [YouTube Video] When Skeptics Ask: A Handbook on Christian Evidences (by Norm Geisler)  

Guest Bios Show Transcript Two Churches in the Chicago area have been rocked by scandal. Now, how does the Christian community move forward? And how do those hurt by these scandals, the so-called church refugees, find healing? This week on The Roys Report, I'll have two refugees from Willow Creek Community Church and one from Harvest Bible Chapel join me. Also joining me will be two area pastors whose churches have taken in a number of refugees.  I really hope you can join us for The Roys Report, this Saturday morning at 11 on AM 1160 Hope for Your Life and on Sunday night at 7 on AM 560 The Answer! This Weeks Guests Joe Thorn Joe Thorn is the Lead Pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles, Illinois, and the author of several books, including Note to Self and Experiencing the Trinity. He has been a columnist for Ligonier's Tabletalk magazine and is the co-host (with Jimmy Fowler) of the podcast Doctrine & Devotion. Dave Jones David has been privileged to serve as Senior Pastor at Village Church since 2010.  He seeks to combine the in-depth study of Scripture with a shepherd's heart.  He has been married to Helen for more than thirty years.  They have three grown sons, two daughters-in-law, and one grandson.    Rob Speight Rob Speight graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary and served in vocational ministry prior to working in the market place and attending and volunteering at Willow Creek for 27 years.  Rob started a blog when the Bill Hybels scandal became public.   Carol Behrends Lifelong Christian. . . Survivor of toxic fundamentalism and sexual abuse. . . in attendance at Willow Creek since 1980 (theater days). . . zealot for Truth and accountability Terri Streich Terri was a member of Harvest Bible Chapel for 15 years until she left 1 1/2 years ago. She has also been in Women's ministry as a counselor for 9+years. Currently she is a member of Redeemer Fellowship St Charles, Ill. with her husband of 35 years Dave. Together they have 3 children and 4 grandchildren. Show Transcript Note: This transcript has been edited slightly for continuity. Segment 1 JULIE ROYS:  Welcome to The Roys Report, brought to you in part by Judson University.  I am Julie Roys and today, we're going to be talking about a topic that has absolutely ravaged the Christian community in the Chicago area. And, if you've been listening to the news, you know that in the past 18 months, two major, evangelical megachurches have been rocked by scandal.  First, Willow Creek Community Church, one of the 10 largest churches in the United States—experienced major upheaval after allegations of sexual misconduct surfaced concerning founder Bill Hybels.  Initially, the women who brought those allegations were discredited by the church. But as evidence against Hybels mounted, senior leaders and elders recanted, and resigned. Yet many say the damage that is done is just too much and they've left the church.  Attendance at Willow is down at least 15-percent at Willow's main campus—and at least 9-percent overall.  Then several months later, another megachurch—Harvest Bible Chapel—was upended when its pastor, James MacDonald, was accused of rampant wrongdoing. This included financial misappropriation, bullying, and shocking vulgar speech that was aired on morning-drive radio here in Chicago.  The results were similar.  All the executive staff resigned. The elders resigned.  And there was a major exodus of people away from the church. Obviously, this has sent shock waves throughout the Chicago area.  There are literally thousands of so-called church refugees—people who feel betrayed and hurt and are in need of healing. At the same time, these people are suspicious of anyone in spiritual leadership. Some don't want anything to do with the church. Yet there are others who are coming into these area churches and they're looking for healing and they're looking and longing for help.  And then there are pastors—many of whom are godly, hardworking, and often underpaid.  Yet now, they're viewed with suspicion.  And God forbid, they ask for money or any commitment from people in the pews.  This has become trigger issues for people who are coming into their churches. So how does the Christian community recover from this? How do we move forward as the Bride of Christ? And can we ever again be a city on a hill?  Well, that's what I'm going to explore today. And I've gathered a very special group of people to help me do that. With me today are two Chicago-area pastors and three so-called church refugees. The pastors are Dave Jones, senior pastor of Village Church of Barrington.  And Dave and I met while I was reporting on Harvest Bible Chapel.  In fact, he was a great source of information for me so I'm very grateful for that, Dave.  Dave, you also were on staff at Harvest Bible Chapel—ten years served there, and I know also your church has become just a major wide-open door for an awful lot of refugees.  So welcome to the program.  I'm just really glad to have you. DAVE JONES:  Thank you.  Glad to be here. JULIE ROYS:  Also joining me is Joe Thorn, pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in suburban St. Charles.  Joe also hosts a podcast called Doctrine and Devotion.  And Joe and I also met while I was reporting on Harvest Bible Chapel.  You had me in, I think it was pretty early.  It was after my World piece had hit—that expose which I think was mid-December—came in and really enjoyed the opportunity and had a good time with Joe.  But I know you've been impacted as well and you have a number of refugees at your church.  Correct?   JOE THORN:  Yeah.  Over the years, even before this broke, people started to kind of bail on Harvest for various reasons.  And some of them have made their way towards Redeemer. JULIE ROYS:  Okay.  Let me start with you, Dave, because I know you've had, I think, when I interviewed you, you said maybe 300 or so had come from Harvest at some period of time, stayed for at least six months or more.  I'm guessing that was with, there was kind of like two waves.  There was 2012 when there was gambling exposed and then there was this ex-communication of elders which a lot of people left then.  Then the church kind of rebounded and then this latest, you know, revelations of wrong doing and, you know, James eventually got fired by the church.  Has that brought in another wave, I'm guessing? DAVE JONES:  Yes, it has.  You know, we did have several hundred people, actually, that came from, you know, during like 1.0 and now there's another wave coming yet again.  And we have not tried to, you know, we have no way of really counting that or anything but we are seeing visitors every service, every weekend. JULIE ROYS:  Yeah.  So tell me, I mean, what's it like being a pastor of a church that's receiving these refugees?  Like, what has it been like the past 6-9 months at your church? DAVE JONES:  Well, obviously we're seeing new people every weekend.  So we're trying to, you know, be welcoming and outgoing toward them and just trying to let them find a place where they can find healing.  We get the context.  We know what's happening there.  And so we've just tried to love and we've tried to model Christ-likeness the best we can.  And let them reestablish confidence in the church and in church leadership. JULIE ROYS:  And when you say you get it not only do you get it because you've been there.  But you've experienced spiritual abuse.  Can you talk a little bit about that? DAVE JONES:  Sure.  You know, I was on staff at Harvest for 8 ½ years and that was, you know, I would say those early years were good years.  And there would be occasional things that would happen.  But toward the end especially, my eyes began to get opened to some things.  And once the leadership there got the sense that I was beginning to think and maybe had one foot out the door, it did get really bad.  And so I came out of that situation quite beat up.  And it took me several months just to even get my smile back.  And I was having nightmares.  I was starting to have like some paranoia.  And I was really beginning to wonder if something was wrong with me on the inside.  But God was gracious and through some loving friends who just walked with me through that, and prayed me through it, I did get to a point of healing.  But I would say the healing took place over a 3-4 year period.  So yes, so I get it personally and I also get it corporately. JULIE ROYS:  Yeah, I'm glad you said that about feeling the paranoia and some of that.  I remember when I was reporting on this story and I'm giving these stories to my editor, right?  And I remember one point he said, Julie, these people, you know, I hate to say it, they sound a little crazy.  And I'm like, you should talk to them.  They're not crazy and you have no idea what they've experienced.  And that comment, you know, I know initially, was just getting used to this story.  And now we've seen, as it's come out, the people are traumatized on a level that I think nobody imagined initially.  And the people aren't crazy but what they experienced has been absolutely crazy.  And so I think churches need to be just aware.  So I appreciate that Dave.   So Joe, same question to you.  What has it been like for you the past 6-9 months? JOE THORN:  Well, we have a small church right, relatively small church — 350's probably the average attendance on a Sunday between 3 services.  So we have a small space. JULIE ROYS:  Now why do you do 3 services? JOE THORN:  Because we can't fit everybody into a small space.  Literally it's not to grow, it's to manage the small growth that we have.   JULIE ROYS:  You sure you don't want to start a big building program? Probably not the right time.  (laughter) JOE THORN:  We're not going that way.  We plant churches.  We planted 3 churches out of us so we're sending our people out all the time.  We're not fans of big church for us.  But our people, at Redeemer, don't really have to do anything different than they normally do.  Our congregation, who we are a congregational Baptist church. JULIE ROYS:  Say what that means.  Congregational.  That's a form of government. JOE THORN:  Right.  What it means is that our church is governed or led by a plurality of elders who all function together in parity, meaning, me as the lead pastor, I don't have more say than the volunteer elder.  We all have the same authority.  But the congregational holds us accountable.  They vote on leadership, they vote us in and out.  They can fire me.  They vote on budget.  They vote on members.  So that's a congregational church with a lot of transparency and accountability.  We don't change anything that we're doing other than, because our people are generally nice and welcoming.  They're very warm towards people that are coming in.  The only thing that we've done is we've let our congregation know, a long time ago during our members' meetings, listen these people are hurting.  Some of them are coming in angry.  They're in the rage stage right because they've been betrayed and hurt or abused.  Others are coming in just broken and mourning.  So we just tell them be gentle, give them patience and space but be kind.  And that's all we've had to do.  And our people have warmly welcomed them.  So people, most people from Harvest and that kind of a church, don't come to Redeemer because we are a small, reformed Baptist church.  Culturally it's just very, very different.  But the people that have come, have come because of that almost.  It's like they want to distance themselves from even the culture of what they went through.  Not because the culture was necessarily wrong in every way, but because they want to distance themselves from not only abuse but some of the other trappings and they wind their way towards us.  And I think it's been, for most people that have come and stayed, it's been a pretty seamless transition.   JULIE ROYS:  Yeah.  I mean it's interesting that we mention even in this first segment church government. Because I remember, again, when I was reporting on this, I had all this information, actually I hadn't published yet that about how church government at Harvest changed over time.  And James McDonald took power, you know, and had had this façade of being elder led but it really was James led.  And I think people are asking about church government.  But I remember when I was first reporting, again my editor saying to me, Julie, you and I are interested in that, and about 12 of our readers but that's about it.  You know, I mean people don't care about church government.  I think people care about church government now.  And I think that's a good thing.  I think they need to care about church government.   Real quickly, because we just have like 30 seconds.  What kind of church government do you have Dave? DAVE JONES:  We are also congregational.  We have elders but they are voted on by the congregation. JULIE ROYS:  Okay, so they're actually accountable to the congregation.  That's a very important piece.    Well again you're listening to the The Roys Report.  I'm Julie Roys.  Joining me today Joe Thorn, pastor of Redeemer Fellowship, Dave Jones, pastor of Village Church of Barrington.   And coming up next, I've got some refugees.  Some people who have come from some of these churches who are wounded and hurt and I think you're going to want to hear what they have to say. Stay tuned, I'll be right back.  Segment 2: JULIE ROYS: After being betrayed by a pastor or a church, how do you ever trust again? Welcome back to The Roys Report. I'm Julie Roys. And if you've followed the news at all, you know that two Chicago-area megachurches have been rocked by scandal. At both Willow Creek Community Church and Harvest Bible Chapel, pastors have resigned, or been fired, in disgrace. Elder boards have been replaced. And congregations have shrunk as many people have determined that they no longer can stay in a place where they don't trust the leadership. So, how does the Christian community respond to a crisis like this?  How do area churches welcome literally thousands of people coming to them wounded and hurting? And how do these so-called church refugees heal and learn to trust again? Do they EVER go to a church again?  Our show today is recorded, so I can't take your calls. However, I encourage you to join the live conversation online by going to Facebook.com/ReachJulieRoys. Or to get to me on Twitter, use my handle @ReachJulieRoys. Well today with me are two Chicago-area mega, not mega church pastors. Two Chicago (laughter) pastors—Joe Thorn and Dave Jones. You heard from them in the last segment. But what I want to do now is have you meet three people who have experienced the devastation at Harvest and Willow Creek personally.    First, Terri Streich was a longtime member at Harvest Bible Chapel. In fact, she served in the counseling ministry, but recently she left after experiencing first-hand some of the abuse and the toxic culture there at Harvest.  So, Teri, welcome, great to have you.   TERRI STREICH:  Thank you.  Good to be here.  JULIE ROYS:  Also joining me are two former members at Willow Creek Community Church—Carol Behrends and Rob Speight. Carol was a member at Willow Creek for decades, right Carol, is that right?  And Rob actually served part-time on staff for a time. Both have been disheartened and disillusioned by what they've seen. And I appreciate you coming on as well and being willing to share your stories.  So welcome Carol.  CAROL BEHRENDS:  Thank you. JULIE ROYS:  And welcome Rob. ROB SPEIGHT:  Thanks for having me. JULIE ROYS:  So why don't we start with you Terri.   I know this, I can see it in your eyes, they can't see it, maybe they'll be able to hear it, but this is still raw for you.  I mean, how did you first become aware of the issues at Harvest and how has this impacted you on a personal level?     TERRI STREICH:  Yes, well, it has impacted my husband and I on a personal level. But to give you a little backdrop, we attended Harvest for about 15 years, and it was wonderful at the beginning.  We felt refreshed as if in a dry and weary land. JULIE ROYS:  When was this?  What year? TERRI STREICH:  Boy, you know it's got to be 19 years ago now probably. JULIE ROYS:  Okay. TERRI STREICH:  Off and on.  So, just got plugged in right away and was very honored to be asked to serve in some leadership roles and made some wonderful friendships there. And we loved to serve the Lord and the people that come and that are new to Christianity or that just need encouragement.  Then I got invited to be on staff as the Women's Director in Elgin and over the years the roles somewhat changed and then I did get invited to counsel women at the church and yes. And so for 9 years I was on staff there. And during those 9 years, front row seat witnessed wonderful things of people getting saved but also the things that you only see whether you're on staff or my husband served as an elder for a few years. So we had the interesting dichotomy of once my husband being on the elder board and me being on staff and we would go home and talk about some things. And it was just shocking to both of us in the spin factor on what was said in the congregation from the pulpit and then behind the scenes, whether it's in the staff meetings or in elder meetings. JULIE ROYS:  Two different things and not feeling like they're telling the truth then to the congregation.  And didn't your husband and you, I don't know if you want to talk about it, didn't you originally discover the gambling that James McDonald was involved in? TERRI STREICH:  Yeah, Women's Ministry or the ministries there at Harvest they have small groups and then they have flock leaders that oversee small groups and then elders, of course, oversee the congregation.  But yes, one of the small group, no, one of the flock leaders that I was serving with had witnessed and had heard about some things and so and then there's rumbling behind the scenes.  We sat on it for almost a year, praying about it, hoping, you know, to test it to see if that's true and finally the gal and I went to, you know, one of the pastors and brought this to the attention of the elders and were very concerned . . . JULIE ROYS:  And when you say “this” that James McDonald was gambling in Vegas, right? TERRI STREICH:  Yes, he was yeah.  And the attitude and the language and the amount of money that was being played all in different areas of the city, we were aware of. So we of course brought that to the elder board.  We brought that to Pastor Rick and it was . . . JULIE ROYS:  Rick Donald? TERRI STREICH:  Yeah, he wasn't shocked, I don't believe, but he seemed to listen and then the next elder meeting my husband was there to kind of discuss it a little bit, so. JULIE ROYS:  He wasn't shocked because he probably knew already.  I mean these are some of the things that are coming out.  So much we could talk about. But I want to get everybody involved here.  So Carol you were at Willow Creek Community Church for decades.   CAROL BEHRENDS:  Yes JULIE ROYS:   The only, you grew up, you said, Plymouth Brethren? CAROL BEHRENDS:  Yes JULIE ROYS:  That's an interesting church.  I mean that's a very small church where you're not allowed to have pastors, right? CAROL BEHRENDS:  They choose not.  Yes, that's not their way.  JULIE ROYS:  Yeah. CAROL BEHRENDS:  One-man ministry is not, they think, the way to go. JULIE ROYS:  So you've experienced these two very different churches.  Tell me about Willow. I'm guessing, there were wonderful years. But then it soured for you.  Tell me about that? CAROL BEHRENDS:  Well, growing up in Plymouth Brethren it was like wonderful to come to Willow Creek and see that style of church, yeah, two opposites, that's all I can say.  We jumped right in.  We were small group leaders and my husband was heading up the prison ministry, Exodus, and many, we had several small groups. JULIE ROYS:  And you probably saw a lot of people come to know the Lord in that time? CAROL BEHRENDS:  Yeah, maybe not through the small groups so much.  We had couples that we were bringing along that we were bringing along that who were young Christians and meeting in homes and became very close to the couples and some of them were still, we still travel to visit. JULIE ROYS:  So, when these women came forward, you know, started out with a few in the Chicago Tribune saying that Bill Hybels had, you know, had some sexual misconduct toward them and abusive behavior.  At first when you heard that what was your response? CAROL BEHRENDS:  I believed it immediately. JULIE ROYS:  You did?  And why did you believe it? Because I'm guessing you had a high opinion of Bill Hybels. CAROL BEHRENDS:  I had a high opinion of Nancy Beach and all the other ones. JULIE ROYS:  That's what was, you know, I felt the same way like we had attended Willow actually back in the late 80's, early 90's. And Nancy Beech, Nancy Ortberg, my goodness.  So, but how did, this is your pastor for like decades you know, how did that impact you, to have your pastor now be involved in something like that?  CAROL BEHRENDS:  My pastor suddenly became in the same category of some of the men I had come in contact with in the work place who were, you know, sexual harassment, guilty of. And so then I hear Bill Hybels is behaving the same way so I just lumped him into that category.  JULIE ROYS:  But I'm guessing devastating, yes? CAROL BEHRENDS:  Devastating, shocking, disgusting.  I was disgusted. JULIE ROYS:  Well, and it's interesting you say that about, you know, you kind of think of the people, you've been in the work place.  For women, I know that's me too.  And now, I read those things I'm like, oh yeah, I've had bosses like that, I know what that's like. CAROL BEHRENDS:  I get it. JULIE ROYS:  It's tough and to think that this person that was a spiritual leader, a shepherd over you.  Now, is sort of a wolf. CAROL BEHRENDS:  Exactly. JULIE ROYS:  Yeah and how'd that make you feel about church?   CAROL BEHRENDS:  I don't need church to have a relationship with the Lord. JULIE ROYS:  So you feel done with it? CAROL BEHRENDS:  I am done with it.  For right now, that's where I'm at. JULIE ROYS:  Yeah, understandable.  I get the pain and I get where you're coming from.  Rob you're not going to have a chance to talk in this segment.  I hate to tell you that. ROB SPEIGHT:  That's okay. (laughter) JULIE ROYS:  But when we come back, Rob Speight will tell his story and Rob was at Willow Creek, also served on staff.  So, you have kind of both worlds there from being on staff and being a member. ROB SPEIGHT:  I do. JULIE ROYS: And now you're kind of, you're preaching in a church and doing itinerant thing. ROB SPEIGHT:  Getting back into the pulpit now. JULIE ROYS:  Yeah okay.  And your wife is going to a small group but that's about as much as she can handle right now, right? ROB SPEIGHT:  I'd say that's affirmative. JULIE ROYS:  Yeah, okay.  Well, again, we're going to explore this more when we come back.  You're listening to The Roys Report.  Joining me Carol Behrends, Terri Streich, also Rob Speight and two Chicago area pastors, Dave Jones and also Joe Thorn.  We'll be right back after a short break.  Stay tuned. 3rd Segment JULIE ROYS: Welcome back to The Roys Report, brought to you in part by Judson University.  I'm Julie Roys.  And today, we're discussing Living in the Aftermath of Church Scandals. Here in the Chicago area, we've had two, major scandals—first at Willow Creek Community Church, involving founder Bill Hybels. And then at Harvest Bible Chapel involving former pastor, James MacDonald. Many feel betrayed and duped and are profoundly wary of churches and pastors. And pastors—many of whom are godly and honest—suddenly are viewed with suspicion. In fact, I remember our first show was talking a lot about the Harvest Bible Chapel situation. I got an email from somebody that said, “Man, you sound like you're pastor-bashing.” And I'm like, “Ahh.” It made me feel awful because I do love pastors and I know the majority of them are great people and godly people. But that's just the reality right now. So, as a Christian community—how do we heal? How do we deal with this situation?  Today's show is recorded, so I can't take your calls. But I encourage you to join the live conversation. That's going on online on Facebook.com/ReachJulieRoys. Also, on Twitter, you can use my handle @ReachJulieRoys. Well joining me this morning, two Chicago-area pastors, Joe Thorn and Dave Jones. Also joining me are three people who have left their churches, following scandal there. We just heard in the previous segment from Carol Behrends and Terri Streich. But now I've got Rob Speight. And Rob was at Willow Creek Community Church. But Rob, I'm sure you saw great things at Willow. That's what brought you there. But tell me how you became disillusioned and decided to leave. ROB SPEIGHT: Well, when the story broke, that was the first time I heard it, anything about it, was from the Chicago Tribune in March of 2018. And very much like Carol, I believed it because of the people, and their characters, who were making these claims. And then when I attended the first family meeting, which was a defense of Bill Hybels and a defense of the Elders and how the women were liars and colluders, I immediately began to write to the Elders. Because, even though I'm a lone, or a small voice in large church, I wanted them to know that there were people questioning decisions that were made. And so I started to write to them, and the answers that I continued to receive were lacking in transparency. They were, I don't believe, forthcoming with what was happening. And then eventually, it wasn't too long after, that we stopped attending. But I continued to write to the elders and continued to be shushed. They did not want me speaking up and sharing my thoughts. JULIE ROYS: And then we had, initially what was it, 3 women? Was it 3?  ROB SPEIGHT: Well, it was Vonda Dyer, Nancy Beach,  JULIE ROYS: Nancy Ortberg ROB SPEIGHT: Nancy Ortberg. And then Jimmy and Leanne Mellado were advocates, trying to tell the story of an affair that they knew about, that the elders supposedly investigated . . . JULIE ROYS: And the woman had recanted. Taken back her testimony.  ROB SPEIGHT: They use that as an excuse.  JULIE ROYS: I know . . . ROB SPEIGHT: They use that as an excuse when there are others that know something very different. JULIE ROYS: So since then, though, as it became 10 women or more, and then Pat Baranowski—Bill Hybel's former assistant—when she had her exposé in the New York Times, that seemed to be sort of a, the last straw . . . ROB SPEIGHT: That was the last straw, yes. JULIE ROYS: So then you had Steve Carter resign and apologize. An elder apologized to the congregation. All the elders resigned. It wasn't enough for you, though? ROB SPEIGHT: Steve Carter was, he isn't given enough credit as he deserves for standing up to a machine. And if he hadn't resigned, I'm not sure what would have happened. But he caused, in my opinion, Heather Larson to resign and all the elders to resign. Was it enough? Well it hadn't been enough, because I'd started a blog and I was writing there. And then when there was a meeting called in August, a very spur of the moment meeting, and Heather Larson and the elders resigned, that was enough. And I stopped writing my blog. And I wanted to give Steve Gillen and the new elders to be, space. JULIE ROYS: Well, and we can talk a lot about because just recently there was a meeting, a reconciliation meeting—I know a lot of the victims didn't feel like it was reconciliation at all, didn't feel like—they weren't even mentioned by name. And so, we could talk a lot about those specifics, but I really want to move it now toward what about your feeling now towards the church in general and toward joining another church? You've left Willow, how do you feel about joining another church? ROB SPEIGHT: I like the idea of joining another church. I like the idea of being part of a community. Do I look with a jaundiced eye at what might be going on behind the scene? Ya, I do. JULIE ROYS: You're skeptical. ROB SPEIGHT: I am skeptical. But, for good reason. But I also know that God uses the local church. God wants his followers to be part of a community, and to build into each other's lives and to use their spiritual gifts. And that happens in the local church. JULIE ROYS: But you're kind of in a wasteland right now. I kind of understand that. We're going to need to go to break. When we come back, I want to hear just briefly, what do you need to hear from a pastor for you to feel safe there. Then I'm going to give our pastors a chance to respond to that. Just reminds me, I remember when we were looking for a church years and years ago and we'd had a bad experience on staff at the church. Really bad. Very wounded. And I remember meeting with a pastor, which it took about 6 to 9 months to get a meeting with the pastor. Finally got a meeting with the pastor and he looked at me and he said, “You know, I just get the feeling that you're not that excited about this church and that enthused.” And I looked at him and I'm like, “Well, yeah, you know, but it's kinda the best we could find. We love the church with its warts and everything else, so we're just going to roll up our sleeves and serve.” And he looked at me and he said, “Well, if that's how you feel, you can't serve at this church. We want people who are enthusiastic.” Needless to say, we walked out of that meeting and we didn't join that church. I know some of you are listening, you can relate to this. I hope you'll stick with us, we're going to come right back after a short break. Again, you're listening to The Roys Report with Julie Roys. Joining me, 2 area pastors, 3 Harvest and Willow Creek refugees. It's going to be a great discussion. Hope you stay with us.  4th Segment JULIE ROYS: Well, how does the Christian community recover from church scandals? Welcome back to The Roys Report. I'm Julie Roys. And today, we're tackling a painful subject that has impacted so many people here in the Chicago area, but also around the country. Of course, in Chicago, we've had two major church scandals involving Willow Creek Community Church and Harvest Bible Chapel. But unfortunately, these scandals are not isolated. I can still remember back in the 80s and probably a lot of you listening can remember this as well when Jimmy Swaggert, that scandal hit. When the PTL scandal and Jim Bakker hit. It was disillusioning. It really was, not that I was a big follower of Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggert but man, that was the first big evangelical scandal and I just didn't think that was possible for us.  These scandals are so, so painful. And they shouldn't happen. Pastors should love and protect the sheep, not fleece and abuse them. But that is what has been the reality at some of these churches. And what do we do when this unthinkable thing happens? Well, we're going to jump back into that discussion in just a minute. But first, I want to remind you this month for a gift of any size to this ministry I am giving away copies of the book by apologist Norm Geisler, an amazing defender of the Christian Faith, who just passed away last month. The book is I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist. And it's a great read by someone I greatly admired. And if you read any of my coverage of the battle for inerrancy at the Moody Bible Institute last year, you'll see Norm's name because I interviewed him several times about the issue. He was so passionate about the truth and inerrancy. And I'm thrilled to offer his book. So if you'd like to support this ministry and get a copy of I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist just go to my website JulieRoys.com and click on the donate button. Also, I want to let you know, if you've missed any part of today's broadcast or just want to listen again, or share it with friends, the audio of today's program will be posted by 1:00 pm today to my website. And again, the website is JulieRoys.com.  You know it's funny, I even feel this because I just asked for donations, that there's a sense in this room, my goodness how dare she (laughter) and I get that. I will say this, we have made a commitment to publishing a line item budget and how much I have made or taken out of that. I can promise you it's a part-time salary to do this radio program. It is nothing anywhere on the level that we have seen by megachurch pastors. But again, I believe completely in open and complete conversation about that and being transparent. But part of that is because it has to be.  So, let me return to this conversation, Rob and I had said this before the break. Again joining me is Rob Speight. Rob is a former member at Willow Creek Community church. Rob, what do pastors need to know about you and people like you that are walking through their door? ROB SPEIGHT: I believe the folks who are visiting churches who have come out of places like Willow Creek and Harvest Bible Chapel, they're going thru various stages of grief. And there are those who want to be left alone. They want to come in, hopefully experience and be part of good worship and be taught from the word of God and I want to leave. But for my wife and myself, that wasn't the case. We had pretty much recovered from some of the shock of what had occurred at Willow. And we had visited a number of churches and we have never stuck anywhere. And one of the—there's a community in a church, there's strengths and weaknesses about community. The strength is, if you've got it, you love it! And you want to hold on to it. But the weakness is, how does a refugee break into that community? So, for the pastors to communicate to their body, who have community, we know you love each other and you have great small groups and all you want to be together and cannot wait to talk with your friends after church or before church. But there are refugees coming. And will you, you've got to go out of your comfort zone. Your comfort zone is to be with your friends. Out of your comfort zone is to be noticing, watching, who is new? And not to be like, “Hey, did you sign in yet?” Not to be over bearing. But to be caring, winsome, and to be sensitive. Are you hearing from someone who wants more or are you hearing from someone who wants their distance? So that is a value that I believe incoming churches need to have for refugees. JULIE ROYS: Absolutely. Carol, that question makes you furl your brow, just the idea of what do pastors need to hear from you? CAROL BEHRENDS: I don't need the pastors. JULIE ROYS: You've kind of had it. CAROL BEHRENDS: I'm really on my own. I have Christian fellowship without being in church. JULIE ROYS: It would take a miracle for you to go back to the church at this point. CAROL BEHRENDS: I don't trust myself to choose a church that in the end I will be able to trust. Because I was in a church for 38 years and didn't realize what the reality was.  JULIE ROYS: Boy that's hard. You know what? And I've heard people say that, like who have had multiple experiences even at bad churches and say, “What's wrong with me? Why didn't I do a better job picking a church?” It's certainly not your fault, Carol.   CAROL BEHRENDS: I pride myself on my intuition and this time it didn't work. JULIE ROYS: That's tough. Terry? TERRI STREICH: Yah, after many, many years of making relationships and but seeing the hypocrisy that was going on in the church, very painful. You can't equate it to anything. They're starting to write about these things now. It is such a grief and a disappointment to come from the Christian community from Holy Spirit led supposedly people. The paranoia that was going on, on the staff at the end, was difficult. And so when I quit, we invited the pastor over, never contacted. There was no love, no outreach. People are left all by themselves, you feel naked. And it is very, very painful. Many tears, you question your own discernment, even. “Why didn't I see that?” Dave and I, we had our meetings. We had a million meetings. And believing the best and nothing. Most things didn't change. JULIE: Yet you ended up at Joe's church. TERRI STREICH: Yes. JULIE ROYS: I don't think I introduced you at the beginning of the segment, Terry Streich you were at Harvest Bible Chapel and Carol was at Willow Creek Community church.  Joe Thorn one of the area pastors on this program also David Jones. You ended up at Joe's church. Did Joe do something right that made you say, “okay, I can trust this dude?” TERRI STREICH: Well this is what happens. ‘Cause a lot of people were calling us and asking. Dave and I had to decide, “what are the main things that God will have us . . .?” It wasn't easy to go somewhere new. But, you can listen to sermons online now. You can kinda check out people's doctrine before you step in and invest yourself or get hurt again. We did our investigation as best we could, and we came. And our hearts, we really ached for the word of God to be preached with no apology. In regards to doctrine, the theology, we weren't distracted because our lens that we were looking through, its sermons before, we were so critical, all of that. And we just didn't want to be distracted. We wanted to hear God's word just wash over us. That's what we were so hungry for. JULIE ROYS: So you were drawn to the preaching, was there something else?  TERRI STREICH: Yes. Well Joe is very accessible. We met him at a Starbucks that week. Dave wrote him an email affirming his gift. And we asked a million questions. The people were lovely there. But our eyes always have to be set on the Lord and trust his leading and guiding. And ask for discernment as we read His word. That's really important. JULIE ROYS: And you said earlier before we were on air, I'm never going to a megachurch again.  TERRI STREICH: No, we won't. JULIE ROYS: That's interesting. Dave, you don't have a megachurch, but it's, you know what would you say, about 600, 650? How do you respond to you know what these women want from a church, what Rob's wanting from a church? What have you guys done? DAVID JONES: Yeah, so again, I think a big part of it for people is just hearing that they understand and know. And so just to let a visitor who's coming know, “I get what you're going through right now. Like I experienced it myself personally.” And I think that is disarming in and of itself. And it begins a process of building trust. I think another thing that's important for them to realize is that even that this is new to you, this is not new to the church. Jesus predicted that there would be ravenous wolves who would come in among the sheep not sparing the flock. He spent His last major discourse of teaching, according to Matthew's gospel warning people about false teachers. The book of Revelation details seven different churches. And some of them received no condemnation. Some received only condemnation. Some received mixed reviews. And, you know, we look at the problems with Corinth and otherwise. Like the early church was not a perfect place. They were real people who wrestled with real issues, and some of these issues were leadership issues. So I think for people who have come to that awareness of, “This has been going on since the beginning of church history. It's just happening to me now.” JULIE ROYS: Man, that is great. Joe I am going to let you land this plane. Although Dave, you just got us down the runway, Joe, speak to these people hurting right now. JOE THORN: Listen to what pastor Dave, said. JUILIE ROYS: You second that? JOE THORN: Yes, he's giving you the truth of God's word. My encouragement to people that are hurting that are coming out of spiritually abusive and toxic cultures, churches and situations is to give yourself time. But to draw near to God through the means of Grace meaning His word and meaning prayer. But the means of grace are really most vibrantly and intensely experienced in the Christian community of faith. And so, I want to say I understand, I am not mad at you that people are distancing themselves. I am angry at the wolves. But, I guess the challenge would be, I don't think that we can be the people that God calls us to be or I don't even think we can do all the things God called us do, outside of the local church. Now that's going to look different, different kind of churches, whether it's house churches, megachurches, big, regular, small churches were made for that kind of covenant Christian community. So, I think the people that I have talked to haven't completely said, “I'm never going back under any circumstances. They just understand, “I don't know when I'm going back.” So, I want to encourage them, “leave that door open. And surround yourself with good Christians who can speak into your life and perhaps you'll find your way back to church through them, eventually.”  But do not distance yourself from the means of grace, that is going to be critical for your spiritual health. JULIE ROYS: I know Dave you've actually done something intentional at your church about spiritual abuse, inviting people in to process these spiritual abusive situations they've been from. I think those are really important, and I so appreciate. Thank you so much Rob, Dave, Joe, Terri, Carol for being willing to come and be a part of this, I think it was really helpful. You know I resonate with what you guys just said and the scriptures that are coming to mind, Matthew 16:18, where Jesus says to Peter, “I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”  So the church is God's church He won't give up on her and I truly believe that these horrible things, and abuses that have come to light, have come to light because God is purifying his church, he has brought these things out, I don't think it's  just man's work, it's God's work. Second scripture is Hebrews 10:25 where the apostle Paul urges us not to stop meeting together and I get it that for some, find fellowship where you can and come to the hospital for healing. We need each other, we desperately need each other. If you missed any of this program the entire podcast will be posted to my website JulieRoys.com. Thank you so much for joining me. Have a great weekend.  Read more

Join Devin and Melissa Pellew, Chapter Directors of Ratio Christi at Winthrop University, each week as we discuss issues related to Christian Apologetics, theology and biblical worldview issues. We will be joined by Dr. David Geisler to discuss the new documentary about the life and work of his father, the late Dr. Norman Geisler (1932-2019), as we will take a look at his tremendous legacy for Christ.  Dr. David Geisler is a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary (M.A. and Th.M.) and Southern Evangelical Seminary (Doc. of Ministries in Apologetics). He has been involved in Church and para-church ministry for over 25 years and is an internationally known speaker (North American, Latin America, Asia, Europe, and Africa).  In July of 2011 he and his Chinese wife, Charlene and their three children relocated back to U.S. where David oversees Norm Geisler International Ministries’ global movement both in the East and the West. David feels especially called to play a part to expand his father’s (Dr. Norman Geisler) apologetic resources around the world and also extend his father’s legacy by cultivating greater hunger among lay people to desire greater apologetic training to meet the challenges of living in a post-Christian world. During the episode, we will take your calls to share your personal stories of Dr. Norm Geisler's impact on your life and ministry. To purchase Dr. Geisler's Collected Essays, Vol. 1: 1964-1979 edited by Paul Compton, you can do so here.

A sad moment for Christianity as we say goodbye to Norm Geisler. A look at the rantings of a disqualified "pastor" and the scary state of U.S politics as we see the connections between a sitting and former president to a known sex offender

Norm Geisler passed today, so I speak about his influence on me early on in my Christian life, and then I address “why pluralism?” or, really, why so many different religions? At the Tower of Babel God divided the Nations and handed them over to the “sons of God,” but kept Israel for himself.

Norm Geisler passed today, so I speak about his influence on me early on in my Christian life, and then I address “why pluralism?” or, really, why so many different religions? At the Tower of Babel God divided the Nations and handed them over to the “sons of God,” but kept Israel for himself.

In a way, Job’s friend Eliphaz says the right things. But how might he be wrong, and more importantly, what can we learn from that for apologetics? Intro: Just a reminder that as of yesterday, this daily podcast will focus primarily on conversational Bible reading along the path of The Bible Project’s reading plan. This doesn’t mean we won’t draw out atypical learning moments from what we do together, but keep an eye out for other forms of apologetics training here. Too, I totally forgot to tell you that there’s a free Kindle book on prayer by the recently homebound Warren Wiersbe — link’s in the Sources and Resources section below. For all the goodies, go to www.forthehope.me/blog/

In this episode, Kenny interviews author, apologist, podcaster, and philosopher Tyler Vela to talk about the literary framework hypothesis of Genesis 1 as well as Tyler's thoughts about pieces of Genesis 1 being motifs and metaphors that would lead us to believe that Genesis 1 is in large part a polemic argument written by Moses on behalf of Yahweh the creator. Tyler Vela studied Philosophy and English at California State University, Sonoma. He also earned a Bachelors degree in Biblical and Theological Studies from Moody Bible Institute. Currently, Tyler is working towards a Masters of Biblical Studies at Reformed Theological Seminary (Charlotte). Tyler is the host of The Freed Thinker Podcast and blog and is a frequent guest on many Christian and skeptical podcasts and forums. Subscribe to The Freed Thinker Podcast: www.thefreedthinker.podbean.com To check out Tyler Vela's paper: A Historical-Grammatical and Polemical Reading of Genesis 1 Check out The Mentionables Conference. Recommended Reading: The Genesis Debate: Three Views on the Days of Creation (multiple contributors, Foreword by Norm Geisler, Edited by David Hagopian) The Lost World of Genesis One: Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate (by John H. Walton) Reading Genesis with Ancient Eyes by John Walton, Ph.D. [YouTube Video/Lecture] The Framework Interpretation: An Exegetical Summary [Blog/Article] Meredith G. Kline on "Space and Time in the Genesis Cosmogony" [Blog/Article]

Happy feast of the assumption of Mary, y'all! Today I talk a little about the assumption of Mary, I respond to what Protestant apologist, Norm Geisler has to say regarding Aquinas and the dogma of the assumption and then (....drum roll....) I share a portion of a brand new audio book, Pope Pius XII's apostolic constitution in which he defines as dogma Mary's assumption into Heaven ... huh? ... Huuuh? --- Please support PWA here - Patreon.com/PWA Also check out PintsWithAquinas.com

For additional information on defending inerrancy, visit David Farnell's website at www.defendinginerrancy.com The book The Jesus Quest:The Danger From Within by Norm Geisler and David Farnell is available FREE in the Transcript : notes link below.

For additional information on defending inerrancy, visit David Farnell's website at www.defendinginerrancy.com The book The Jesus Quest:The Danger From Within by Norm Geisler and David Farnell is available FREE in the Transcript : notes link below.

For additional information on defending inerrancy, visit David Farnell's website at www.defendinginerrancy.com The book The Jesus Quest:The Danger From Within by Norm Geisler and David Farnell is available FREE in the Transcript : notes link below.

For additional information on defending inerrancy, visit David Farnell's website at www.defendinginerrancy.com The book The Jesus Quest:The Danger From Within by Norm Geisler and David Farnell is available FREE in the Transcript : notes link below.

Visit summit.org to receive unflinching worldview analysis of current news and events. Look for the email signup on the sidebar to the right. This week on Christian Worldview Thinking, Aaron Atwood talks to apologist Dr. Frank Turek about Stealing from God, Dr. Turek's new book. In this episode, Dr. Turek overviews the book, explaining how atheists build their arguments against God on realities best explained by theism, such as morality, causality, and reason. Dr. Turek also shares way to practically and effectively apply the arguments from the book in conversation. Frank Turek is a prominent public defender of the faith and is the co-author of I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist with Norm Geisler. He's also the president of CrossExamined.org, a non-profit organization that brings apologetics content to churches and schools across the U.S. Frank is a speaker at Summit’s 12-day Student Conferences (www.summit.org/thesummit) where young adults learn to defend their faith and confidently engage others in truth to shape culture.

Visit summit.org to receive unflinching worldview analysis of current news and events. Look for the email signup on the sidebar to the right.  There's still time to register for Summit's two-week worldview conference in sunny southern California, June 14-27. Get more information and register at summit.org/thesummit. This week, in the second and final part of his lecture "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist," apologist Dr. Frank Turek uses arguments from science and morality to defend the Christian faith, as he works to prove that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a Christian. He'll also make arguments for miracles and for the reliability of scripture. Frank Turek is a prominent public defender of the faith and is the co-author of I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist with Norm Geisler. He's also the president of CrossExamined.org, a non-profit organization that brings apologetics content to churches and schools across the US. Frank is a speaker at Summit’s 12-day Student Conferences (www.summit.org/thesummit) where young adults learn to defend their faith and confidently engage others in truth to shape culture.

Visit summit.org to receive unflinching worldview analysis of current news and events. Look for the email signup on the sidebar to the right.  There's still time to register for Summit's two-week worldview conference in sunny southern California, June 14-27. Get more information and register at summit.org/thesummit. Apologist Dr. Frank Turek draws on reason and science to build a case that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a Christian. This week, in the first of a two-part lecture, Dr. Turek shares arguments for objective truth and for God. Frank Turek is a prominent public defender of the faith and is the co-author of I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist with Norm Geisler. He's also the president of CrossExamined.org, a non-profit organization that brings apologetic content to churches and schools across the US. Frank is a speaker at Summit’s 12-day Student Conferences (www.summit.org/thesummit) where young adults learn to defend their faith and confidently engage others in truth to shape culture.

We love Jesus!

We love Jesus!

We love Jesus!

During this Q&A session, Joel C. Rosenberg, Dr. Norm Geisler, and Dr. Michael Rydelnik further discuss what the Bible teaches about Israel.

To those who ask, “Who is Norm Geisler?” some have suggested, “Well, imagine a cross between Thomas Aquinas and Billy Graham and you’re not too far off.” Dr. Geisler is a prolific author, veteran professor, speaker, lecturer, traveler, philosopher, apologist, evangelist, and theologian. Dr. Geisler has made a powerful impact in Pastor Mark’s life and ministry. He has authored/coauthored over 80 books and hundreds of articles.

After an introduction by Joel C. Rosenberg, Dr. Norm Geisler examines what the Bible says about Israel in the Old Testament.

Introduction: The Astonishing Mysteries of Christianity We’re looking this morning at Philippians 2:12 and 13, and I just couldn’t get it to work in one sermon. So I can’t, I just won’t. And so your outline is only part of what we’re going to say on these two verses. We’re going to, God willing, if God gives us time, look at it again next week. So rest easy as we move through this. And I was hesitant to do it because we have the perfect synergy, the perfect working together here in these two verses, of God and man. And therefore, it’s with some trepidation that I don’t want to do it all at once, but there’s enough of that working together in the first part of the message that I felt that you would understand, that we are called to work out our salvation because it is God who’s at work in us. Now, I think that Christianity, our faith, our wonderful faith, is essentially mysterious. I mean, it’s a great mystery and it’s not just one mystery but it’s one mystery after another. And so it is in Philippians 2 that we leave one great mystery of Christianity, the incarnation of Jesus Christ and go to the next great mystery of Christianity, namely, the sovereignty of God and human responsibility working together on our salvation. And you know something? The fact that my mind cannot fully work these things out is not troubling to me. I accept fully that Jesus is God, the true God, the eternal God, and that he was truly man. He took on truly a human body. And I cannot perfectly work that out, and I just accept it. Now, in accepting that, I don’t stop thinking about it. I think about it a lot, more and more actually, and the more I think, the more insights and the more appreciation I get. But I’m never going to take it all in. I’m never going to comprehend it, if that means to take it totally into my mind so that I’ve got it. No question about it. And neither can I do that with this issue here, the working together of God’s kingly sovereignty and my responsibility. God’s energy, his power, his work and mine, how they work together. And the fact that Christianity is essentially mysterious to me does not make it any less true. Actually, I think, the opposite would be true. If I could kind of figure it all out and say, “Listen, it’s really quite simple. It’s not as complex as you thought. Now, this is what you need to know… ” If I could do that then I would think it would be proof that this book, this Bible, is a human book. It’s not really what it claims to be, namely from the mind of God, because the mind of God’s far higher than mine, his ways are far higher than mine, his thoughts infinitely above mine. And so, it makes sense that there’s going to be one mystery after another. It doesn’t trouble me, but I don’t stop working on it either. And so, as I come to Philippians 2:12 and 13, I just say with the Apostle Paul, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and the knowledge of God, how unsearchable his judgments and his path beyond tracing out. Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor? Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him? For from him, and through him, and to him are all things. To him be glory forever and ever! Amen.” and Amen. I. The Deep Mystery of Salvation in Two Parts: Our Work and God’s Now, as we come to this, we’re looking at the mystery of our salvation, our work and God’s. Look again at these two verses, Philippians 2:12 and 13. He says, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose.” Now, we’ve been saying in the book of Philippians, that there are two infinite journeys. There is that internal journey of holiness, where a sinner is transformed from being rotten, and sinful, and wicked to being just like Jesus Christ. The internal journey of holiness. And then there’s that external journey of worldwide evangelization where lost people are brought into faith in Christ so that there is representation from every tribe, and language, and people, and nation on the face of this earth. Internal journey of holiness, external journey of worldwide evangelization. Now, here in these two verses, the focus is on the internal journey, isn’t it? That we are called to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. II. Questions of Context In the next section of the next message, with the next section, we have some of the external journey. As we’re told, you know, to hold out the word of life in a crooked and depraved generation in which we shine like stars in the universe. We hold out the Gospel; that’s that external journey. So we go from one to the other in Philippians again and again. And they are intimately related but I’m not going to say how this morning, that’s for another message. But here we’re looking very carefully at that internal, that journey of salvation. And having said that, we get right to some corrective doctrine right away, salvation is a journey. There I said it. It’s not heretical to say that salvation is a process, that if you’re here in this room listening to me right now, you’re not done being saved yet. Now, I know you’re thinking, “Okay, he used to be Roman Catholic and he’s thinking of that, the old works thing. Are we going to get the works thing back in here?” No, I did used to be Roman Catholic, but I’m not misunderstanding. I’m just saying that salvation is a journey, and I think it’s because Scripture teaches me that salvation is a journey. Now, we Baptists, we evangelicals, will use this kind of expression, “Are you saved?” or, “When were you saved?” or, “Tell me how you got saved.” Or we might use this expression, “Once saved, always saved.” Now, I don’t reject these slogans as untrue, biblically. They are true, every one of them. We can speak in that language. The Bible does speak of salvation as a past event. We can say, “I was saved when I was 10,” we can say that. But the problem is that it starts to limit our way of thinking about salvation, thinking that it’s just a once for all instantaneous thing and in no way a process, and that is false. And so, we would say something like, “Well, you’re not saved by works. Remember that, you’re not saved by works.” Well, that’s not entirely true, because if that were true, then how could we work out our salvation with fear and trembling? So, I think instead, we need to be a little more careful in talking about salvation. What is it? And theologically, kind of comes at us in three parts. First there’s justification, then there’s sanctification, and then glorification. First, justification. And in this I will say with all my heart in the good Protestant tradition that we are not in any way justified by works, by our works. Oh we’re certainly justified by works, but they’re all Christ’s; he did the work. And so, we are justified by works but by Christ’s work. When it comes to our works, in no way are we justified by our works. Perish the thought, that is the great Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone, apart from works of the law. Your works will never justify you. You cannot stand before God freed from the guilt of sin because of some good thing you do, it’s impossible. And that is instantaneous. At the moment of faith, you are justified, you are declared not guilty. God sees you in the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ, Amen and Amen. And on judgment day, no matter how much you work out your salvation with fear and trembling, it’s not that righteousness you’re going to be standing before God in; it’s going to be Christ’s perfect righteousness, Amen, because you’re not going to get far enough in your journey. You’re not actually going to get very far at all. I don’t mean to be discouraging to you, but the standard is infinite perfection to be just like Jesus all the time internally and externally, in motive and in action, never leaving anything undone that he would have done, and never doing anything that he would not have done. Perfect conformity of the law of God, how much progress in that you really think you’re going to make? Now, real progress is possible, and real progress is important, and real progress is glorifying, greatly glorifying to God, but you are not in the end going to be standing before God, in sanctification, righteousness, it will still look like a tattered robe in that holy place. Now, you’re going to be standing in justification and that is instantaneous not by works. Are we clear on that? We’re clear, it’s very important. Now, sanctification is a gradual process whereby the righteousness of Jesus Christ, which is perfectly ascribed to us, positionally is then little by little, gradually worked out in our actual performance, so that we start to behave differently. We start to think differently. We start to act differently. We are little by little changed, more and more to be like Christ. And it’s an uncertain process. As Chuck Swindoll said, “Three steps forward and two steps back.” Have you ever felt that? And that’s about what it feels like day by day. It’s a partnership where God works and we work, and the verses we’re looking at today and God willing next week are the perfect linked verses to show how the two go together. God works and we work, but it’s a partnership sanctification. And the third, glorification. And this is also an instantaneous transformation by the power of God entirely apart from your works, because you’ll be dead. Entirely apart from your works and your effort where you will be made completely like Jesus, in body, soul, and spirit in every way. Glorification. Now, we are therefore saved by works in the middle section. Our works have no place at all in the first, justification, no place at all in the third, glorification, but we are called here in Philippians 2, to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. This is sanctification. III. Our Lesser Work: Working Out Salvation Now, here we come to a deep mystery. We come to the relationship between God’s sovereignty and our human responsibility, and we are not finally going to solve it today; we’re not. I can assure you, I can make a lot of promises and one promise is that I will not solve this one today. It’s an ancient debate. It goes back probably further, much further, even than Augustine and Pelagius, but at least we know they debated over it. Martin Luther and Erasmus debated over it. John Calvin and Albert Pighius debated over it. The Dutch Reformed believers, and the Remonstrants debated over it. In the 17th century, George Whitfield and John Wesley debated over it. Jonathan Edwards and many of the ministers in New England who preached the doctrine of free will and Arminianism, they debated over it. Charles Spurgeon and the 19th century British Arminians, they debated over it. And in our era, James White and Norm Geisler, and many others have debated this topic. And we’re not going to solve it perfectly. And the question is, how do we reconcile God’s sovereignty and human responsibility? Charles Spurgeon was asked that very question. How do you reconcile God’s sovereignty and human responsibility? And he answered, “I never tried to reconcile friends.” Isn’t that a beautiful statement? And they are friends because they’re side by side in these two verses, do you see it? They’re just side by side, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose.” They seem quite friendly to me, side by side, and so in so many other places as well. And so, we’ve got divine sovereign energy, we’ve got diligent human effort in working out salvation here presented as friends and allies. Danger: Pushing to the Extremes Now, we have a danger here, and the danger is in pushing to extremes. We have presented before us the need for diligent human effort in sanctification to make progress as a Christian. And we have also presented before us God’s sovereign energy and effort in that matter. And in church history, some have pushed too far one way or too far the other way. Some have so emphasized God’s activity and sanctification, that they neglected the need for any human effort at all. For example, there are the quietists, Madame Guyon and Bishop Fenelon, the 17th century mystics. They get their name from the need to be quiet, to just quiet yourself before God, to be totally passive in the Christian life. They sought to abandon self in the sea of God. Sounds a little like Hinduism and Buddhism, some of the eastern mystics, to just lose yourself in God, and lose any sense of self whatsoever. And some of the quietists went so far as to say, you shouldn’t even resist any temptation or lust because you might get pulled back into a self awareness. And so, some of them actually went into great immorality in following this quietistic approach, that they were not going to fight, they were going to be essentially passive. Some of the Quakers in seeking the inner light followed that same approach. Perhaps, more familiar to you would be the Victorious Life people, who teach that in an instantaneous transformation, you can lose all your sin and immediately live the victorious and the higher life, and the essence of it is a complete ceasing of struggling and striving in the Christian life. Doesn’t that sound good? Oh God, do it to me today. I would like instantaneously to never struggle with sin ever again the rest of my life. A simple solution? I remember when I was about two years into the Christian life, struggling, wrestling with sin. And I came across, this in 1 John, “This is the confidence we have in approaching God. That if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And we know that if he hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have what we asked of him.” Well, being kind of essentially logical and mathematical, I said, “Well point one, God wants me to be pure, and holy, and free from all sin. Point two, all I have to do is ask for what I want according to his will and he will give it to me.” I don’t know why I didn’t see it before! And so, in all reverence, I got down to my knees and said, “God, make me perfect right now. I mean, absolutely perfect, take away all of my sin, in Jesus’ name, amen.” …It didn’t work. I rose up from that prayer about like I knelt down, and more curious to know what went wrong in the mathematics and the calculus of holiness. What went wrong? I was not praying according to God’s will. It was not God’s will instantaneously to make me victorious for the rest of my life. You know why? He wanted to see me work it out. He wanted to see me on 1,000 or 100,000 battlefields by faith conquering lust after lust, temptation after temptation, cowardice after cowardice. He wanted it done, yes, and he was going to give me everything I needed to be victorious in each of those battles; that was his way. Now, you say, but that’s so much suffering, it’s so much struggle. Yes, it’s the very thing the Victorious Life people tell you you don’t need anymore, just be passive, this is what they say. The essence is surrender, have you heard this before? You’ve got to just surrender to God. You’ve got to surrender all things to Christ. “We are to stand,” I’m quoting now, “We are to stand not struggle, the good fight of faith cannot be a struggle, the secret of victory is the indwelling Christ. Christ never struggled with sin,” they say. “So victory is in trusting not in trying. Victory over sin is a gift of God and not a growth.” Did you hear that? It’s an instantaneous gift, it’s not something you grow in. The victorious life is not secured gradually nor by effort and striving on our part. The motto of this is, “Let go and let God.” Have you heard that before? Let go and let God. And the key to the Christian life then is learning just how to let go and let God do it. I read a poem about this, by Jason Ramer: “As children bring their broken toys with tears for us to mend, I brought my broken dreams to God because he was my friend. But then, instead of leaving him in peace to work alone, I hung around and tried to help with ways that were my own. At last I snatched them back and cried, “How can you be so slow?” “My child,” he said, “What could I do, you never did let go.” Doesn’t that sound wonderful? It really does, but it doesn’t line up with the text we’re looking at today. Does God teach you to give it to him and let go, so that you stop striving? I don’t think so, you were told to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. He wants you right in the midst of the battle. He has committed the responsibility to you. There are others that so emphasize God’s side. Hyper-Calvinists, who take the idea of God sovereignty so far as to say, “You don’t need to do anything in the Christian life.” Calvin never taught that, reformed people, the Puritans sure never taught that. And then, lazy mainstream evangelicals, who say, “Hey now, I walked the aisle. I remember it distinctly. I prayed the prayer. What do I need to work out my salvation with fear and... What do I need to do that for? Once saved, always saved, my pastor taught me that, I believe it. It’s a Biblical doctrine. So, what do I need to do?” And so, there is overemphasis on that idea, saying that, therefore, we don’t need to do anything in the Christian life. That’s all the one error. IV. God’s Greater Work: God Working In Us But then on the other side, there are some that so emphasize human effort and human striving and human work that they forget that, “…it is God who works in you, to will and to do, according to His good purpose.” That the Scripture actually always gives the emphasis to God’s work first and ours second. And that’s why, when I get to talking about our work and God’s, ours is the lesser work and God’s is the greater work. Among these would be anxious Arminians, who believe that at any moment, you can lose your salvation, so you better keep doing it and God is sitting back watching and seeing what you can do. And he’s not going to lift a finger. He’s done enough through providing the blood of Jesus Christ. The rest is up to your free will. And you better keep working at it, you better keep cranking it out, because if you don’t, you’ll lose your salvation. Some Holiness churches teach this. The Roman Catholic monks and ascetics, totally focused on themselves and their own works and what they could do, and not understanding God’s sovereignty in all of this. Let’s not make either one of these errors. There is deep mystery here. But let’s totally embrace the fact that the Christian life is going to be a hard-working, energetic battle the rest of your life, don’t expect anything else. But that it is “God who’s at work in you at every moment, to will and to act according to His good purpose.” Let’s hold both of them together. Now, let’s dig in and try to understand this in terms of its context. Philippians was a thank you letter. You remember that Paul was in chains for Christ and the Philippian church was concerned and so they sent him some money with Epaphroditus, they sent him some money. Paul, just being an honorable person, just wanted to say, “Thank you”. And so, he wrote a thank you letter. But his thank you letters are just much better than ours, much better than ours. And so, we’re still reading his, two millennia later. Because he’s going well beyond just saying, “Thank you.” He’s concerned that they understand the Christian life. He wants them to understand his struggle and his being in chains, in terms of those two infinite journeys. The internal journey of holiness, the external journey of worldwide evangelization. Because you see, the Philippians were also going through struggles. They were getting persecuted, they were needing to stand up for Christ. And so, he wrote, so that they would have what they needed to stand firm in the day of testing. Also, it turns out that the Philippian church was being rent by divisions and by arguments and conflicts, they were not united. And so, in Chapter 2, he writes saying “Please, if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.” And then, he gives that beautiful, that soaring example of Jesus Christ, “Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped but He made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant. And He took His servanthood to the utter extreme of death, even death on a cross.” And so, therefore Philippians, “as you have always obeyed,” you see the link there, Jesus obeyed even to death on the cross. Now, “as you also have always obeyed, continue to obey.” To the point where in Verse 14, you “do everything without complaining or arguing.” You see how that works? And so the internal growth of holiness in Christ will enable you to stop arguing with each other. And that will enable you to hold out the word of life to a crooked and depraving generation. V. The Relationship Between Our Work and God’s Work In Us That’s the context of Philippians 2:12-13. He wants them to be blameless. Now, let’s look at our lesser work, our lesser work. We will not finish contemplating God’s greater work. We will do that, God willing, next time. But let’s look at our lesser work. Now first, why do I call our work, “The lesser work?” Well, we know from this verse that we work in salvation, and God works. We work and God works. But what is the relationship between the two? Now, we’ve studied in 1 John, perhaps even this morning some of you looked at 1 John 4:19, which says, “We love because He first loved us.” It puts the priority on God’s love. That means that our love is a flower, like a harvest that comes out of the root and the seed-bed and the nourishing soil of God’s love for us. That’s where it comes. So, we put the priority on God’s love. “We love because He first loved us.” Well, I think Philippians 2:12-13 would then say something like this, “We work because God first worked in us.” Let me say that again, “We work,” in a Christian life, “We work because God first worked in us.” Do you think you’re ever going to get ahead of God? Where he’ll... he’s praying, “I wish I’d thought of that, but I’m so glad he’s doing that.” I can’t imagine that. Could it be that you’re only ever keeping in step with the Holy Spirit. He’s leading out, you’re following? So, if you’re down on your knees praying, if you’re studying the Scriptures, if you’re putting sin to death, it’s because that is exactly what the Holy Spirit is working in you at that moment. And for a change, you’re not hardening your heart. “We work because he first worked in us.” And so, therefore our work is the lesser work. Now, what is the nature of our work? Look again at Verse 12. “Therefore my dear friends, as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue-” Gentle encouragement Now, first of all, I just want to comment pastorally. Do you see how sweet spirited he is toward these folks? Paul just has a sweet spirit toward the Philippians. He calls them his dear friends. He cherishes them. He loves them. And then he encourages them. “As you have always obeyed…” Isn’t that encouraging to hear that from Paul? “Just as I look at your lives, since the first time I knew you. And since the first day that you began as Christians, you have always obeyed.” And so, he’s very sweetly encouraging to them. I think this is a lesson to parents and a lesson to disciplers. Be greatly encouraging to those entrusted to you. Growth happens in an environment of hope and encouragement, not in a harsh negativity of, “Look how poorly you’re doing.” But rather, Paul says, “Look how well you’re doing, but just keep doing it all the more.” He’s very encouraging to them. Now, the focus then here is obedience. I asked what is the nature of our work? The issue is obedience. “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” If you just put it together, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, is a matter of growing obedience. “As you have always obeyed,” continue to obey. That is, to work out your salvation. Do you see the logic of it there? So the working out is matter of growth and obedience to Christ. Obedience to Christ is essential for salvation. Now realize the essence of sin is rebellion, transgression against the commands of God. And so, if God is going to save you, he’s going to get you out of that. You’re going to obey. You’re going to submit your life to a King. That’s what salvation is. To stop being a rebel. Christ saves us, by calling us back into his Kingdom. He says in Mark 1:15, “The time has come. The Kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news.” What’s the good news? That the King against whom you have rebelled is willing to take you back and to transform you so that you are his loyal subject again. Christ has the right to demand faith filled obedience Now, we’ve looked at this before in Matthew 11, but I can’t get over it. It was read earlier. Matthew 11:28-30. Every chance we get, we should look at it. “But there the King stands before us and says, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest.” And then He says, “Take my yoke upon you and learn from me. For I am gentle and humble in heart and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Do you know what he’s calling you to do? To bend that stiff neck of yours under his yoke and yield to him as your King. The Biblical image is one of yielding to, submitting to a King. So that he is your sovereign, he has the right to rule over you. And he’s a gentle and loving King. This is not a burden. And so, it’s a matter of obedience. It’s a matter of submission to Christ. And therefore, we must constantly seek to obey our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Verse 12, “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence but now much more in my absence.” Let me tell you something. If you have no desire to obey Jesus Christ, you are not a Christian. If you have no desire to obey the commands of Christ, you’re not a Christian. If you think it a light thing to obey Christ, you have not understood the Gospel. The Philippians showed their faith by immediate and heartfelt obedience, not only to Christ but also to Christ’s messenger, the Apostle Paul. Now, what kind of obedience are we talking about? Well, immediate obedience. Look back at Philippians 1:5. There Paul speaks of their partnership. Do you see this? Philippians 1:5, he thanks God because of “their partnership in the Gospel from the first day until now.” Do you see that? Right from the start, these Philippian Christians were obeying Christ and obeying Paul, Christ messenger. They didn’t wait to obey. Now, some people think “Well, I’m ready to accept Jesus as my Savior, but I’m not yet ready to accept him as my Lord.” As though he’s somehow schizophrenic. Some days he’s going to be Savior and some days he’s going to be Lord. Well, that’s not the case. He is Savior and he is Lord. Jesus called people to immediate obedience. “As he was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers. And they were Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew, they were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. ‘Come follow me,’ Jesus said, ‘and I will make you fishers of men.’ And immediately they left their nets and followed Him. Going a little further, He found James and John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus said, ‘Follow Me.’And at once they left their father and their nets and followed Jesus.” He found Matthew the tax collector the same way. “Come follow me,” And he got up and followed him and he obeyed him. One disciple said, “Lord first let me go and bury my father.” And he said, “Follow me and let the dead bury their own dead.” To the rich young ruler, he said, “If you want to be perfect, sell everything you have and give it to the poor and you’ll have treasure in heaven. Then come follow me.” He called for immediate complete obedience. And faith filled obedience. “An obedience,” it says in Romans 5, “that comes from faith.” A faith filled obedience. Now, Paul points this out. He says, “As you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence.” They seem to have grown in their obedience. They’re even more obeying Christ now than when he was there before. This is a great sign of a true living faith. When it’s only you and Jesus: Consistent obedience Early in my Christian life, when I was a college student, I had as a job, going around from place to place at the university and inspecting fire extinguishers. It wasn’t a living. I just made money, pocket money, wasn’t very exciting. But I would look and I would sign my name on the little tag. I went back there a few years later and actually saw one of the tags I signed, so it made me feel good. Andy Davis was here, there it was. But I went into this little, kind of room, closet or something like that and went in, turned on the light, closed the door. And then, I turned and there on the wall was a poster. The only purpose of which was to excite lust. I was totally alone, the door was closed and I turned away. This is about six months after I had become a Christian, there was nobody in the room, except me and Jesus and that was enough. There’s an obedience that comes from faith and faith is measured by what you do when it’s only you and Jesus. And so, he says, “Not only in my presence, but now that I’m not even there anymore, you’re obeying more and more.” And why? Because Jesus is still there, the Lord is still there. So it’s a faith filled obedience and it’s a consistent obedience. “As you have always obeyed, even now continue to obey.” What’s this going to lead to? Well, hard work. “Work out your salvation.” The word is related to “energy”. Show energy in your Christian life. Work it out, energy. He’s talking here, as we’ve said, about sanctification. Growth and godliness requires sweat and toil and suffering and hard work. You’re not going to grow without it. I know the victorious higher life people are promising you something, but you’re not going to find it. The Bible doesn’t promise it to you. The Bible promises you battle. But it promises you weapons and defenses that are suitable for the task. Just having a quiet time every day is a battle. Amen. Just getting up early in the morning and having a good time with the Lord is a battle. You’ve got to do it, work out your salvation. Now, what does it mean “with fear and trembling?” Some of you I think studied in 1 John, where it says, “Perfect love drives out fear.” Romans 8 says that, “God did not make us a slave again to fear.” Well, what then is this fear and trembling? Well, it’s not the fear and trembling of a slave at Mount Sinai, thinking that, “If I don’t obey this whole law, I’m going to hell.” No, that’s not what it is. That’s not the fear and trembling here. I think it’s different. Paul uses the same expression in 1 Corinthians 2:3-5, when he talked about his preaching ministry in Corinth. He says, “I came to you in weakness and fear and much trembling. My message in my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with the demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom but on God’s power.” So, I think what it means is, you work out your salvation with a constant awareness that you can do nothing without Jesus’ help. “I am the vine and you are the branches, apart from Me you can do nothing.” A constant kind of trembling awareness of dependence on Jesus. “Taking heed, you who stand, lest you might fall today into sin.” Fearful of the devil and his temptations, fearful of your own sin and your own habits and patterns, fearful of having to give Christ an account for yet more sin. With fear and trembling, with the sense of the seriousness of this battle, we are going to work out our salvation. Now, that is our lesser work. God willing, next time, we’re going to see God’s greater work in us. VI. Application What kind of application are we going to take from this? First, accept the mystery. You have a responsibility in your Christian life, accept it. Accept responsibility. You must work in your Christian life. And you must work hard. And if you don’t work hard, you will not make great progress in your Christian life. You must do your part, your lesser work. If you want to grow in knowledge of the Bible, you must study. You must memorize. You must meditate. You must work at it. If you want to grow in your prayer life, like Ole Hallesby said, “Prayer is work.” That’s the name of his book. You want to grow, you have to work at it. Is it easy to kneel down and pray for an hour? No, it’s hard, it’s hard work and if you expect it to be easy, you’re going to be greatly disappointed. But if you know that prayer is work and growth in prayer is work, then you will know. That is exactly what I was told and so, I must work at it. Suppose you have bad habits present, like overeating, for example, it’s not going to go away without effort. You must work at it. Yes, you must work it by the power of the Spirit, but you must work to put sin to death. If there are good habits that are absent, for example, personal witnessing, you must be willing to work at it so that you became a better witness. Study, work at it, put yourself under somebody who is a good witness, so that you can learn how to be a witness. Suppose you have bad character traits present, like complaining. It’s not going to go away like the morning mist, “Then one day I never complained again.” Oh, wouldn’t that be sweet? But I don’t think it’s going to happen. As matter of fact, this verse gives me an indication that it is not going to happen. There isn’t going to be, “Then one day I never did such and such again.” It could happen statistically that from that day forth you never did. But it happens through hard work by the power of God working in you. And if you are quietistic and laid back, you will continue to complain. You will continue to be who you’ve always been. And concerning good traits, character traits, that are absent like compassion, you must work at acquiring Christ’s compassion for the suffering and needy. Now, if you don’t make progress, don’t get discouraged. Stealing some from next week’s sermon, “It is God who works in you so that you can work.” You will win in the end, you will be victorious. Just don’t give up. Don’t give up, keep working at it. Because God’s doing the same work in you that you are doing in yourself. So if you don’t see progress, don’t get discouraged. But if you do see progress, don’t get arrogant and start saying, “I have found the secret.” And sure don’t write the book called, “The Victorious Life,” alright, thus discouraging generations of people who haven’t found your secret, whatever it is. Don’t get arrogant. And if you are not a Christian today, don’t work. Don’t work at all. Because all so called good works before justification are actually sins. You just need to humble yourself before the cross of Jesus Christ and accept him as your Savior, that his blood will cleanse you from sin.